Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:03:09 -0800 From: Dianne Holmes Subject: I deleted my genie file HELP Dear Cousins, I just deleted my whole e-mail genealogy file! How do I get it back. I won't turn off the machine until I hear from someone. I use netscape. Dianne G-H From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" To: Subject: Email address Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 21:42:34 -0400 Dianne- I didn't get the first one you sent but saw it on the attachment. Not sure why the email to me would have bounced. Correct mailing address for me is: Lfinnell@infionline.net I'm glad to see we are trying a different approach for research on Andrew and family in PA. I have become very frustrated going over and over the same old data with no new information to be found it seems. I have some data on the siblings of Andrew, but not a lot. I have seen reference to a date of marriage on Rootsweb between Andrew and Catharine (1st wife) but have never seen it documented or been able to get an answer from the submitter where they got the information. There is so much information on some of these sites that is not correct, has not been researched and is merely submitted by someone who got it from someone else...and the story goes on and on incorrectly. Surely with so many of us trying to find answers we will soon get a breakthrough. Remember....we are stronger in numbers!! I got an email from A lady who is researching the WOODFILL's and she says they are planning a reunion in Madison, Indiana in 2004 if any of us would like to come. I'm all for it.....anyone else interested? More later, Linda from Kentucky a real mixture of weather....thunderstorms and 3 inches of rain last night, about 88 degrees today. All is lush and green. The weeds are winning! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dianne Holmes" To: "Linda Finnell" ; "Linda Gudgel Finnell" Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2003 12:56 PM Subject: e-mail address? > Linda, > One of my messages just bounced to you so I guess I may have an old one. > So I should be using the infionline one, right? > Dianne > Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:04:31 -0700 From: Ralph Johnson Subject: Important things A professor stood before his philosophy class and had some items in front of him. When the class began, wordlessly, he picked up a very large and empty mayonnaise jar and proceeded to fill it with golf balls. He then asked the students if the jar was full? They agreed that it was. So the professor then picked up a box of pebbles and poured them into the jar. He shook the jar lightly. The pebbles rolled into the open areas between the golf balls. He then asked the students again if the jar was full. They agreed it was. The professor next picked up a box of sand and poured it into the jar. Of course, the sand filled up everything else. He asked once more if the jar was full. The students responded with an unanimous "yes." The professor then produced two cans of beer from under the table and poured the entire contents into the jar, effectively filling the empty space between the sand. The students laughed. "Now," said the professor, as the laughter subsided, "I want you to recognize that this jar represents your life. The golf balls are the important things--your family, your health, your children, your friends, your favorite passions--things that if everything else was lost and only they remained, your life would still be full. "The pebbles are the other things that matter like your job, your house, your car. The sand is everything else--the small stuff. If you put the sand into the jar first," he continued, "there is no room for the pebbles or the golf balls. The same goes for life. If you spend all your time and energy on the small stuff, you will never have room for the things that are important to you. Pay attention to the things that are critical to your happiness. Play with your children. Take time to get medical checkups. Take your partner out to dinner. Play another 18. There will always be time to clean the house and fix the disposal. "Take care of the golf balls first, the things that really matter. Set your priorities. The rest is just sand." One of the students raised her hand and inquired what the beer represented. The professor smiled. "I'm glad you asked. It just goes to show you that no matter how full your life may seem, there's always room for a couple of beers." From abirchler16@hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 10:45:45 2003 Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:39:31 -0500 From: arleigh birchler To: wegudgel@juno.com Cc: gudgel-list@eskimo.com, musickfamily@yahoogroups.com Subject: Pennsylvania/Louisiana border Bill, I've been taking my time contemplating your map of Pennsylvania. A number of things pop-out. I wonder if the 1751 surveyor was an ancestor of States Rights Gist? (I looked it up; he was) I also note that the border between Pennsylvania and Louisiana is very definite. It appears that it may have been highlighted at a later date with a marker? I approve of the map maker's opinion that there is nothing but empty space east of the Delaware. I spent a lot of time on the dot-dash lines. They certainly appear to be the borders of the colonies. I note that Pennsylvania does not have a northern border, although Connecticut seems to have a western border. Can't find anything named York. The other border line I notice is in the vast empty space east of the Delaware. It does not seem to correspond to any border I am aware of. I have been looking for any mention of the Kickapoo. The first I am aware of them is east of Lake Huron. They did not speak Iroquois. Their name meant "One who stands here, and then stands there." This may explain why it is hard to pinpoint them on a map. Do you know the names of Andrew Gudgel's wives, and which one was Hannah's mother, and which was Nancy's? I have been told before, but am too lazy too search through my saved emails. http://www.ls.net/~newriver/va/cridlin1.htm Arleigh Birchler Musick/Porter Fan Club 1718 Fisher St #2 Madison WI 53713 (608)251-4437 Note: Please let me know if you got on this list by mistake. I try hard to keep from sending mail to people who don't want it. I sometimes add names to my address book, and then am not aware that they are still there. RLB >From: "Wm. E Gudgel" >To: abirchler16@hotmail.com >Subject: Re: Augusta County, Virginia >Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 09:30:31 -0700 > > >Hello Arleigh, > > I have been quietly reading and enjoying your information about Andrew >Gudgel (A.K.A. Gudgell, Gottschalk, Gudgshall, Gatchell, etc) obtained a >land grant from William Penn. I thought you might enjoy seeing the >attached map from a 1775 Atlas. It is based on Christopher Gist's survey >made in 1751. > > You may want to use a graphic image program to print the image. > > I have a theory about how Andrew obtained a land grant at eight years of >age but I will save it for another e-mail. For now I thought you would >enjoy this map. > > I also have a hand drawn map area inhabited by the Franconia Conference >of Mennonites. It is from this same era but is not dated. The map shows >all of the Townships in their community, including Franconia. > > I am from Abraham Gudgell, Sr.'s Line. Frederick Gottschalk, Andrew >Gudgel, Sr., Abraham Gudgel, Sr., Abraham Gudgel, Jr., William Stephen >Gudgel, William Edward Gudgel, Jesse Gudgel, William (Bill) E. Gudgel. > >Bill Gudgel, Evansville, Indiana ><< 1755-Map-Roberts_Atlas.jpg >> To: Trag24@msn.com, gudgel-list@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 11:03:25 -0700 Subject: Re: Gudgel Line - Abraham C. Gudgel, Abraham Gudgel Sr., & Abraham Gudgel, Jr. From: "Wm. E Gudgel" Hi Robert, It is good to hear from you. You have asked a great family genealogy question. The short answer is ... The Abraham C. Gudgel you are descended through and the Abraham Gudgel, Sr. that I am descended through are NOT the same person. That is OK though ... we are still related through Andrew Gudgel, Sr. Here are some details that may help ... Arthur Thurman Gudgel (1878 - 1961) is indeed the descendent of Abraham C. Gudgel (1844 - 1910) & Anna Elizabeth Weed (1851 - 1915). However the Abraham Gudgel, Sr. that I am descended through is Abraham Gudgel, Sr. (1727 - 1815) & Elizabeth Harbinson (1785 - ?). What really confuses researchers is the fact the Abraham only had one descendent, Abraham Gudgel, Jr. (1814 - 1880) who married Anna Elizabeth Burch (1821 - 1897). Please note that the wives names are exact except for their LAST names. While we are talking about Abraham C. Gudgel ... Can you tell us what the "C" stood for? Hey Jana Whitehead ... are you still out there? Abraham C. Gudgel is the line you are descended from. Can you help us out here? Have a great weekend, Bill Gudgel, Evansville, IN On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:55:38 -0500 "Robert Gudgel" writes: > I was wondering how you were related to Abraham Gudgel Sr. He was > My Grand Father. I didn't know or ever hear of any Abraham Gudgel > Jr. My Grand father lived on the home place of Old Andrew, and I > still own it with my sister. My Father was Arthur T. Gudgel one of > Abraham's sons. R. A. Gudgel > To: abirchler16@hotmail.com, gudgel-list@eskimo.com Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 11:36:49 -0700 Subject: Re: Pennsylvania/Louisiana border From: "Wm. E Gudgel" Hi Arleigh, Great research. I appreciate the detailed information I found the map in the book "History of Washington County, Pennsylvania with Biographical Sketches". The entire book (including all maps and photos) is black & white. I do not know if the original map maker emboldened the border or if it was added by a later map printer. However, I did enlarge the map and the border does not seem to be the work of a high liter pen. {Note: GFC Subscribers can also find this map on page 12, of the Gudgel Family Connections Newsletter - Volume 5, Number 1 - January 2003.} BTW - On the Map you will find Pennsylvania spelled "PENSYLVANIE". Under the "P" you will find a ridge line named Laurel Hills. This is the general area that Andrew Gudgel, Sr. settled prior to the Revolutionary war. It is also the area that Andrew and several other residents had their conflict with the local Bailiwick. This is what I have on Andrews wives and Hannah Gudgel & Nancy Jane Gudgel. I hope it helps. Andrew Gudgel, Sr. was married three times: 1. Catherine/Katherine Elizabeth (ca1731-pre1788) m. pre 1745 Franconia Twsp. 2. Barbara Hoch (1731-1794) m. ca. 1787 Pennsylvania 3. Elizabeth Betsey Payne (1763-1823) m. 1793 Woodford Co., KY * Hannah Gudshall/Gudgel (1785-1824) was descended through Catherine Elizabeth. Married Twice: #1 Jesse Musick ... 2 children #2 Adam Teel ... no children Jesse and Hannah were both named in Land Trial Records, 1819, Woodford Co., KY. * Nancy (Nan) Jane Gudgel was born of Elizabeth Payne Wife of A. with foot stone A.G./E.G. Age 60 Nee: Elizabeth Paul, 1st Marriage: Payne, 2nd Marriage to: Andrew GUDGEL Sr. Children: Hester Gudgel McGary; Nancy (Nan) Gudgel Teel; William Gudgel. Linda Gudgel Finnel has a copy of marriage bond (her name is spelled Payn). Family lore says that she was a young widow with young children when they married. Her Maiden name may have been Paul. Part of this is true because she was 30 and he was 66 when they married. Have a great weekend, Bill Gudgel On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:39:31 -0500 "arleigh birchler" writes: > Bill, > > I've been taking my time contemplating your map of Pennsylvania. A number > of things pop-out. I wonder if the 1751 surveyor was an ancestor of States > Rights Gist? (I looked it up; he was) I also note that the border between > Pennsylvania and Louisiana is very definite. It appears that it may have > been highlighted at a later date with a marker? > > I approve of the map maker's opinion that there is nothing but empty space > east of the Delaware. I spent a lot of time on the dot-dash lines. They > certainly appear to be the borders of the colonies. I note that > Pennsylvania does not have a northern border, although Connecticut seems to > have a western border. Can't find anything named York. > > The other border line I notice is in the vast empty space east of the > Delaware. It does not seem to correspond to any border I am aware of. I > have been looking for any mention of the Kickapoo. The first I am aware of > them is east of Lake Huron. They did not speak Iroquois. Their name meant > "One who stands here, and then stands there." This may explain why it is > hard to pinpoint them on a map. > > Do you know the names of Andrew Gudgel's wives, and which one was Hannah's > mother, and which was Nancy's? I have been told before, but am too lazy too > search through my saved emails. > > http://www.ls.net/~newriver/va/cridlin1.htm > > Arleigh Birchler > Musick/Porter Fan Club > 1718 Fisher St #2 > Madison WI 53713 > (608)251-4437 > > Note: Please let me know if you got on this list by mistake. I try hard to > keep from sending mail to people who don't want it. I sometimes add names > to my address book, and then am not aware that they are still there. > RLB > > > > > > >From: "Wm. E Gudgel" > >To: abirchler16@hotmail.com > >Subject: Re: Augusta County, Virginia > >Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 09:30:31 -0700 > > > > > >Hello Arleigh, > > > > I have been quietly reading and enjoying your information about Andrew > >Gudgel (A.K.A. Gudgell, Gottschalk, Gudgshall, Gatchell, etc) obtained a > >land grant from William Penn. I thought you might enjoy seeing the > >attached map from a 1775 Atlas. It is based on Christopher Gist's survey > >made in 1751. > > > > You may want to use a graphic image program to print the image. > > > > I have a theory about how Andrew obtained a land grant at eight years of > >age but I will save it for another e-mail. For now I thought you would > >enjoy this map. > > > > I also have a hand drawn map area inhabited by the Franconia Conference > >of Mennonites. It is from this same era but is not dated. The map shows > >all of the Townships in their community, including Franconia. > > > > I am from Abraham Gudgell, Sr.'s Line. Frederick Gottschalk, Andrew > >Gudgel, Sr., Abraham Gudgel, Sr., Abraham Gudgel, Jr., William Stephen > >Gudgel, William Edward Gudgel, Jesse Gudgel, William (Bill) E. Gudgel. > > > >Bill Gudgel, Evansville, Indiana > ><< 1755-Map-Roberts_Atlas.jpg >> > (Pasted because procmail sent this to me instead of the list) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 09:59:54 -0800 From: Dianne Holmes To: "Wm. E Gudgel" CC: abirchler16@hotmail.com, gudgel-list@eskimo.com Bill and all, Regarding the message about Hannah Gudgel being descended through Old Andrew and what many believe to be his first wife, Catherine Eliz--I see that Hannah's birth date is listed as 1785. Certainly Hannah could not have been a daughter of Catherine Eliz due to the age difference, so we may assume Hannah was Catherine's granddaughter. We have church records listing two daughters for Catherine and Andrew in Bucks Co in about 1750-53, but I don't recall a son being listed, although we know very little about this time period. So we might ask, where did Hannah's last name of Gudgel come from? Where was she born. That would be important to know. By the time Hannah was born, Old Andrew had been in what is now Fayette Co, PA since 1768 or earlier. We find his wife, Barbara's name in the records about this time, but does anyone know for sure when she married Old Andrew? We know exactly when Andrew married his last wife. For sure that is clear, but I'd sure like to know more details of the other marriage. And we still don't know much about his daughters born 1750-53 do we? Does anyone know if they survived to marriage and to whom? Dianne Gudgel-Holmes Wm. E Gudgel wrote: >Hi Arleigh, > > Great research. I appreciate the detailed information <<>> To: Trag24@msn.com, gudgel-list@eskimo.com Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 09:29:28 -0700 Subject: Re: Relation From: "Wm. E Gudgel" Hi Robert, Sorry for the mistake on the dates for Abraham Gudgel, Sr. I read the dates from Andrew, Sr. records by mistake. They should read ... Abraham Gudgel, Sr. (b. 26 Jan. 1786 - d. Oct. 1815). Have a great week, Bill Gudgel On Sat, 2 Aug 2003 12:05:22 -0500 "Robert Gudgel" writes: > That would have made your Abraham Sr. the same age as Old Andrew. > Were they brothers? From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" To: "Gudgel List" Subject: Hannah GUDGEL, d/o of Andrew, Sr. Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 15:13:46 -0400 Hi Folks- I have Hannah GUDGEL born January 10, 1785, d/o Andrew Gudgel, Sr. I = have not documented if her mother was Catharine or Barbara but I = suspenct it was Barbara. I believe Hannah was born in PA or VA--enroute to KY. That's just my = theory for what it's worth. Linda from Kentucky Great summer weather. k From abirchler16@hotmail.com Sun Aug 3 14:19:21 2003 Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 15:58:45 -0500 From: arleigh birchler To: rb2@ezl.com Cc: gudgel-list@eskimo.com, HINSHAW-L@rootsweb.com, MO-CW-L@rootsweb.com, musickfamily@yahoogroups.com Subject: Home Guard Missouri group; I know that a lot of the Home Guard from St Louis spoke Deutch. Many came following the revolutions of 1848, which Karl Schurz helped lead. Some of my close relatives were from a little farther north, Pike County. They were British from Albemarle County, Virginia, via Kentucky, and had been near St Louis when it was still Spanish Louisiana. There seems, however, to be a lot of German names spread all over Missouri. I know St Louis was the largest foreign city in the US, but does anyone have a handle on demographics across the state? My Irish relatives in Cass County came from the Shenandoah Valley, via Murfreesboro, Tennessee. Some of my Irish relatives across the border, near Lawrence, came from the Shenandoah Valley via Indiana, while the Germans in the same Kansas town had fled the Baden Revolution. Except for these few Red 49ers, all of these families had been in what is still Virginia during the Revolution. Arleigh Birchler Musick/Porter Fan Club 1718 Fisher St #2 Madison WI 53713 (608)251-4437 >From: Roland Bauer >To: MO-CW-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [MO-CW] [Fwd: Recruitment for Camp Jackson] >Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 13:41:30 -0500 > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >--------------3F4458EBD17C357699DED038 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Hello > >Thought this might be of interest to some. > >Roland Bauer From abirchler16@hotmail.com Sun Aug 3 14:19:25 2003 Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 16:06:54 -0500 From: arleigh birchler To: musickfamily@yahoogroups.com Cc: gudgel-list@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Musick_Family] Fw: [WKY] Old Fort Dot, Tell me more. A lot of places it is written that Jesse Musick and Hannah Gudgel were married in Lexington, Kentucky. The DAR has them married in Woodford County, where John Musick and Mary Berry were living. When Robert was born, it was Woodford County, Virginia. It didn't become Kentucky until he was about two months old. I've come to think that the sources who list Jesse and Hannah getting married in Lexington were only using that name since more people would have heard of it. On the other hand, maybe they did go to the big city for their wedding. Arleigh Birchler Musick/Porter Fan Club 1718 Fisher St #2 Madison WI 53713 (608)251-4437 >From: Yahd@aol.com >Reply-To: musickfamily@yahoogroups.com >To: musickfamily@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [Musick_Family] Fw: [WKY] Old Fort >Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:45:07 EDT > >Cassia, >Your John Musick in Faith Co. in 1789 was likely a son of Ephriam Musick of >Albemarle Co., VA and the father of Robert Musick. Fayette Co. was the >mother >co. for Woodford Co. >Dot > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > From: "nancy miller" To: , , "Wm. E Gudgel" Subject: Re: Hannah Gudgel children Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:45:16 -0700 Bill I'd like to add to your report on Hannah Gudgel and her children. She had at least 5 with Jesse Musick that were named in guardianship papers in Gibson County after his death. They were: Polly Musick Forbes (married John Forbes) Ephriam Musick (married Lydia Forbes) T. Jefferson Musick (married Adaline Teel, a half sister of William Teel and Adam Teal) John B. Musick (married Mary Johnson) Nancy Musick There is another person (Abraham Musick) that has also been added to that family, but since he was not mentioned in the guardianship, I have doubts about his being part of that family. And as for Hannah and Adam Teal, I believe they had 4 children as follows: William Teal (married Nancy Marvel) Catherine Teal (married Clarence Massey) Elizabeth "Betsy" Teal (married Thomas Montgomery Maddox) Hester "Hetty" Teal (married James William Spencer) Hope that hleps. Nancy Teel Miller > This is what I have on Andrews wives and Hannah Gudgel & Nancy Jane > Gudgel. I hope it helps. > > > > * Hannah Gudshall/Gudgel (1785-1824) was descended through Catherine > Elizabeth. > Married Twice: #1 Jesse Musick ... 2 children #2 Adam Teel ... no > children > Jesse and Hannah were both named in Land Trial Records, 1819, Woodford > Co., KY. > From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" Subject: Marriage Bond- Jesse MUSICK and Hannah GUDSHALL Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 20:52:28 -0400 I have a copy of the marriage bond, consent and minister's return = between Jesse MUSICK and Hannah GUDSHALL dated 7 November, 1801, = Woodford County, Kentucky. The consent was dated 6th November, 1801. Bondsman: Hugh McGarry; Consent-Andrew GUDSHALL, father of Hannah. Consent attested by John GUDGEL and Hugh McGARY. So, this marriage was filed in Woodford Co., KY. Also note that Andrew = and Hannah's last names were spelled "GUDSHALL", while John's (brother = of Hannah and son of Andrew) was spelled "GUDGEL". Most records in = Woodford County spelled the name GUDSHALL and that seemed to have = changed to GUDGEL when they left here. Also note that Hannah was born = in 1785 so she would have been 16 years of age. If she had been over 21 = she could have signed for herself. I still think her mother was = Barbara, the second wife. If Hannah was born in PA or VA while enroute = to KY then that means Barbara may have died about that time or maybe she = actually lived here in Woodford Co. before her death. Andrew, Sr. = didn't marry the third time till October 5, 1793 also in Woodford Co. so = he was here a while before he married again. Does anyone know exactly for sure when Andrew left Fayette Co., PA for = KY? And I still think he may have stopped off somewhere else for a = while before settling in Woodford Co. I think it could have been near = Bourbon Co., KY since there was a SIlver Creek there. Have never seen a = Silver Creek in Woodford or Franklin Co. as reported in an earlier = Indiana history of the GUDGEL's. But then there is also a newly = developed area in Franklin Co. called Silver Creek and it is not far = from the Woodford Co. line and also not far from Glen's Creek. I have = been trying to find out how this name for the new development got it's = name. I'd like to hear theories from some of you others. Sometimes we learn = more by getting our thoughts out in the open. Oh, by the way, I have taken a copy of the Land Trial Records to the = Property Valuation Office along with the plats and also a little history = on this family and how these records came to be. I've told them they = have nearly a year to work on this so there is no rush. They are great = people and this is a small town where everybody knows most everyone. So = they said they would see what they can some up with to help us pinpoint = at least an approximate location of where Andrew lived here. (A side note) The older gentleman who was responsible for helping me = find these records in the first place was Sam Munson. Sam pointed me in = the direction of the Kentucky Archives in Frankfort. I had assumed all = of the original records had been microfilmed and were at the courthouse- = but they weren't. I am sorry to say my friend, Mr. Munson, passed away = last month. Sam would go to the courthouse and answer all the letters = the Clerk received for research, etc. He made a little extra money = helping people but I imagine he could have made more. I will miss my = wonderful friend a lot. Linda from Kentucky Hot and humid during the day but beautiful summer weather. The weeds = are gaining on me! (From Dianne Holmes) Linda and all, Old Andrew left PA for Ky about 1788, In that year we see several documents listing the sale of his property in PA. But I get the impression that he may have already left when the property was sold and that someone else was taking care of the final details. Don't we have some tax records for KY that shows Andrew there in '88 or 1789? Or is that the early 1790s that we clearly find him in Ky? I think there was a time when he seemed to have overlapped in both places. Linda Gudgel Finnell wrote: > I have a copy of the marriage bond, consent and minister's return From: "Vivian Gudgell" To: "Dianeh@Corecom.Net" Cc: "Gudgel-list" Subject: RE: Gudgels in Pa 1790 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:46:14 -0700 HI, I have just looked at every name for 1790 census in Springhill and Luzerne twp, Fayette County Pa. I found Charles GAUS, Solomon GAUS, Enoch GAUS and Daniel GUTCHELL all on the same page 40, roll 8 Luzerne Twp. Fayette County, Pa. I can e-mail an attachment for this page if anyone wants it. Where else should I look for our gang of Gudgells in 1790? Vivian From abirchler16@hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 17:47:51 2003 Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 18:17:58 -0500 From: arleigh birchler To: nteel@lightspeed.net Cc: gudgel-list@eskimo.com, musickfamily@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Hannah Gudgel children Nancy, I went thru and copied everything into my Family Tree Maker. I am pretty sure that Abraham was John Musick's brother, and the child of Hannah and Jesse. Abraham life is pretty well documented. I was looking at the court papers you sent me long ago about the guardian of Jesse's children. I'm going thru and reading and re-reading everthing. Here are the wives I have for Andrew Gudshall: Barbary Hoch Catherine Elizabeth m. 1745 Elizabeth Betsy Payne m. 1763 I've always assumed that Catherine's last name was not Elizabeth. Not sure if I am right. I am working on getting the Teel's in some sort of order. Arleigh Birchler Musick/Porter Fan Club 1718 Fisher St #2 Madison WI 53713 (608)251-4437 Note: Please let me know if you got on this list by mistake. I try hard to keep from sending mail to people who don't want it. I sometimes add names to my address book, and then am not aware that they are still there. RLB >From: "nancy miller" >To: , , "Wm. E >Gudgel" >Subject: Re: Hannah Gudgel children >Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:45:16 -0700 > >Bill >I'd like to add to your report on Hannah Gudgel and her children. She had >at least 5 with Jesse Musick that were named in guardianship papers in >Gibson County after his death. They were: >Polly Musick Forbes (married John Forbes) >Ephriam Musick (married Lydia Forbes) >T. Jefferson Musick (married Adaline Teel, a half sister of William Teel >and >Adam Teal) >John B. Musick (married Mary Johnson) >Nancy Musick >There is another person (Abraham Musick) that has also been added to that >family, but since he was not mentioned in the guardianship, I have doubts >about his being part of that family. > >And as for Hannah and Adam Teal, I believe they had 4 children as follows: >William Teal (married Nancy Marvel) >Catherine Teal (married Clarence Massey) >Elizabeth "Betsy" Teal (married Thomas Montgomery Maddox) >Hester "Hetty" Teal (married James William Spencer) > >Hope that hleps. > >Nancy Teel Miller > > > > This is what I have on Andrews wives and Hannah Gudgel & Nancy Jane > > Gudgel. I hope it helps. > > > > > > > > * Hannah Gudshall/Gudgel (1785-1824) was descended through Catherine > > Elizabeth. > > Married Twice: #1 Jesse Musick ... 2 children #2 Adam Teel ... no > > children > > Jesse and Hannah were both named in Land Trial Records, 1819, Woodford > > Co., KY. > > > > From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" Subject: Earliest GUDSHALL Records in Woodford Co., KY Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 18:51:17 -0400 Hi Folks- The earliest Marriages I can find in Woodford Co., KY that would = interest us are: Jacob GUDSHALL and Drusey DRISKILL July 2, 1791 by Gabriel WOODFIELD Jacob STUCKER and Sally GUDSHALL March 24, 1791 by Samuel SHANNON Andrew GUDSHALL and Jean MITCHELL January 12, 1792 by Samuel SHANNON Michael ODAM and Polly GUDSHALL, October, 1792 by Jas. DUPUY Andrew GUDSHALL to Betsey PAYN(E), October, 1793 by Gabriel WOODFIELD Jesse MUSICK to Hannah GUDSHALL. November 7, 1801 *************************************************************************= ********** Tax Lists May 6, 1795 Andrew GUDSHALL Daniel GUDSHALL Jacob GUDSHALL Andrew GUDSHALL April 30, 1795 Jacob STUCKER John STUCKER- also paid tax in 1792 & 1793 Henry STUCKER-also paid tax in 1792 & 1793 June 26, 1792 Daniel WOODFIELD Commissioner's book, Woodford Co., KY--1807 April 28, 1807- Abram GUDSHALL 1810 Census of Woodford Co., KY No slaves- Andrew GUDSHALL Abraham GUDSHALL John GUDSHALL Jacob STUCKER Henry VARBLE *************************************************************************= **************** Earliest Deeds recorded: Woodford Co., KY Deed Books A & B 1789-1796 No GUDSHALL's Henry Varvil-September 10, 1793- STUCKER/WHITE deed mentions Henry = VARVIL property line-( 50 acres on waters of KY River above Glen's Creek = to Henry Varvil). Daniel WOODFIELD-April 6, 1790 138 acres on Glens Creek from John H. = CRAIG (plus 5 other entries, but this is the earliest). Jacob STUCKER- April 2, 1789 (Before his marriage in 1791). (plus 4 more = entries.). A. VENALBE- December 6, 1788 (witnessed a deed for 2 other parties). Woodford Co., KY Deed Books C and C-2 1794-1805: Andrew GUDSHALL- September 20, 1796 witnessed a deed between Henry = STUCKER and Lydia, his wife to Jacob STUCKER- 80 acres at the mouth of = Glen's Creek (wasn't Lydia Stucker a daughter of Daniel GUDSHALL?) Daniel WOODFIELD-mentions his property in a deed (corner to Daniel = WOODFIELD on a branch of Glens' Creek). June 3, 1794. Same for a David = WOODFIELD on a branch of Glen's Creek) June 2, 1794. (Who is David = WOODFIELD?). Henry VARVIL- September 1, 1795 mentioned. Also other entries later. GUDGEL, William and Andrew-April 9, 1803-Bond between William Graham, = gunsmith of Franklin Co., and Andrew GUDGEL, farmer, and his son, Abram, = of Woodford=20 Co.- Graham to take Abram (17 yeas old 26 last Jan), 3 years an = apprentice to Blacksmith business. So it looks like the earliest date I find for our family was Daniel = WOODFIELD in April, 1790. STUCKER's are mentioned earlier but they were = already here when the GUDSHALL's arrived it seems. And the VENABLE's = were supposed to have been close friends of our family- weren't they = thought to have come to KY about the same time also? =20 I have always thought the GUDSHALL/GUDGEL family got here about 1788 or = 1789. That would seem about right. I believe some of them appear on = the Fayette Co., KY Tax list very early--will have to look at that. = Remember, the area of Woodford Co., KY was in part of Fayette Co., KY = very early till the county was established. I am sure there are others = that I didn't pick up so if you need me to look I have these sources = here at home. That's all for now, Linda from Woodford Co., KY From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" To: "Gudgel List" Subject: Fw: Hannah Gudgel children Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:53:28 -0400 Arleigh- Where did you get this information that Catherine Elizabeth married Andrew GUDGEL, Sr. in 1745? I would love to think you have seen a marriage bond or something else!!!! I have my fingers crossed! Catharine Elizabeth was wife number 1, Barbara/Barbary was number 2, Elizabeth Betsey Payn(e) was # 3 (in 1793). The third marriage is the only date we have documented as far as I know. Please prove me wrong . Linda .>Arleigh wrote-- > Here are the wives I have for Andrew Gudshall: > > Barbary Hoch > Catherine Elizabeth m. 1745 > Elizabeth Betsy Payne m. 1763 > From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" Subject: Hannah Gudgel's children Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:22:17 -0400 Nancy- Can you share with us the birth dates of Hannah's children and any other = information? Also could you subit the information on the Guardianship = papers? I haven't seen those. Thanks, Linda From: "Vivian Gudgell" Subject: Re: pfannekucken Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:34:08 -0700 Hello, I just read some interesting history for the TRUBY/DRUBE family that relates to PANCAKE ,son-in-law of Fredrich GOTTSHALL.. Go to the Genealogy.com message board for the TRUBY family, go to message #86 Search for either Panacock or Pfannekucken with your find command when you get to the message #86.. Lowell Pancake's web site has Jost PFANNEKUCKEN,s son, Joseph married to a Catherine DRUBI. Their child's baptism was sponsored by a Christopher Truby. This message is very long, but it is very interesting reading. Vivian Gudgell From: "nancy miller" To: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" , Subject: Re: Hannah Gudgel's children Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:18:24 -0700 Linda and others >From "Gibson County, Indiana Source Book" Vol. II compiled by Terry = Nolcox there are transcriptions from Probate Order Book A, and the June = Term 1819 has the following entry: Ordered that James Stewart be and he is hereby appointed Guardian to = Polly Forbes late Polly Musick aged about sixteen years & Ephraim Musick = aged about fifteen years Jefferson Musick aged about thirteen years John = Musick aged about eleven years & Nancy Musick aged about nine years = minor children to Jesse Musick Decd and that he enter into bond and = security to be approved of by the clerk of this court in the sum of one = thousand dollars conditioned as the law directs in such cases made & = provided I do not have any idea who James Stewart was - I find him only mentioned = one other time in these court records and he is there an administrator = of another person giving an accounting. Birth dates were figured from their ages in the above and I also have = children of most of them if you are interested, that I have picked up = mainly from census records. Nancy ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Linda Gudgel Finnell=20 To: Gudgel List=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 6:22 PM Subject: Hannah Gudgel's children Nancy- Can you share with us the birth dates of Hannah's children and any = other information? Also could you subit the information on the = Guardianship papers? I haven't seen those. Thanks, Linda Interesting. Does anyone know what the $1,000 bond was all about? That was a huge sum then. Dianne G-H nancy miller wrote: > Linda and others > From "Gibson County, Indiana Source Book" Vol. II compiled by Terry From: "Jennette A. Gudgel" To: , "nancy miller" Cc: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" , Subject: Re: Hannah Gudgel's children Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:03:43 -0500 A once sum payment for all until adulthood? -----Original Message----- From: Dianne Holmes To: nancy miller Cc: Linda Gudgel Finnell ; Gudgel List Date: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 3:56 PM Subject: Re: Hannah Gudgel's children >Interesting. Does anyone know what the $1,000 bond was all about? That >was a huge sum then. >Dianne G-H > >nancy miller wrote: > >> Linda and others >> From "Gibson County, Indiana Source Book" Vol. II compiled by Terry >> Nolcox there are transcriptions from Probate Order Book A, and the >> June Term 1819 has the following entry: >> >> Ordered that James Stewart be and he is hereby appointed Guardian to >> Polly Forbes late Polly Musick aged about sixteen years & Ephraim >> Musick aged about fifteen years Jefferson Musick aged about thirteen >> years John Musick aged about eleven years & Nancy Musick aged about >> nine years minor children to Jesse Musick Decd and that he enter into >> bond and security to be approved of by the clerk of this court in the >> sum of one thousand dollars conditioned as the law directs in such >> cases made & provided >> >> I do not have any idea who James Stewart was - I find him only >> mentioned one other time in these court records and he is there an >> administrator of another person giving an accounting. >> >> Birth dates were figured from their ages in the above and I also have >> children of most of them if you are interested, that I have picked up >> mainly from census records. >> >> Nancy >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Linda Gudgel Finnell >> To: Gudgel List >> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 6:22 PM >> Subject: Hannah Gudgel's children >> >> Nancy- >> Can you share with us the birth dates of Hannah's children and any >> other information? Also could you subit the information on the >> Guardianship papers? I haven't seen those. >> >> Thanks, Linda >> >> >> --- >> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >> Version: 6.0.506 / Virus Database: 303 - Release Date: 8/1/2003 >> > > > Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 08:07:39 -0700 From: Ralph Johnson To: "Jennette A. Gudgel" CC: Gudgel List Subject: Re: Hannah Gudgel's children Could  this have to do with indenturing the children?  I recall another indenturing by a Gudgel of a child for him to learn a trade.  I cant remember the details right now.  This was a form of slavery all as nefarious as black slavery.  How well the indentured person (slave)  was treated  depended entirely upon their owner.  A very excellent book on White slavery was written by Michael Hoffman II in his book " They Were White and They Were Slaves:
The Untold History of the Enslavement of Whites in Early America." you can get it from Hoffman  http://www.hoffman-info.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=Books  

Doyal Gudgel

Jennette A. Gudgel wrote:
A once sum payment for all until adulthood?

-----Original Message-----
From: Dianne Holmes <dianeh@corecom.net>
To: nancy miller <nteel@lightspeed.net>
Cc: Linda Gudgel Finnell <lfinnell@infionline.net>; Gudgel List
<Gudgel-List@eskimo.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: Hannah Gudgel's children


  
Interesting. Does anyone know what the $1,000 bond was all about? That
was a huge sum then.
Dianne G-H

nancy miller wrote:

    
Linda and others
>From "Gibson County, Indiana Source Book" Vol. II compiled by Terry
Nolcox there are transcriptions from Probate Order Book A, and the
June Term 1819 has the following entry:

Ordered that James Stewart be and he is hereby appointed Guardian to
Polly Forbes late Polly Musick aged about sixteen years & Ephraim
Musick aged about fifteen years Jefferson Musick aged about thirteen
years John Musick aged about eleven years & Nancy Musick aged about
nine years minor children to Jesse Musick Decd and that he enter into
bond and security to be approved of by the clerk of this court in the
sum of one thousand dollars conditioned as the law directs in such
cases made & provided

I do not have any idea who James Stewart was - I find him only
mentioned one other time in these court records and he is there an
administrator of another person giving an accounting.

Birth dates were figured from their ages in the above and I also have
children of most of them if you are interested, that I have picked up
mainly from census records.

Nancy

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Linda Gudgel Finnell <mailto:lfinnell@infionline.net>
    To: Gudgel List <mailto:Gudgel-List@eskimo.com>
    Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 6:22 PM
    Subject: Hannah Gudgel's children

    Nancy-
    Can you share with us the birth dates of Hannah's children and any
    other information?  Also could you subit the information on the
    Guardianship papers?  I haven't seen those.

    Thanks, Linda


    ---
    Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    Version: 6.0.506 / Virus Database: 303 - Release Date: 8/1/2003

      

    


  

-- 
Keep track of actual deaths in Iraq.  A daily summary.
http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx

From gudgel-list-request@eskimo.com Thu Aug 7 08:12:19 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id IAA12508; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:11:36 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:11:36 -0700 To: gudgel-list@eskimo.com Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 06:15:43 -0700 Subject: Fw: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Derni=E8re_jam_Br=E9sil_au_Somo_avant_les_vacances_!?= Message-ID: <20030807.100812.-166761.0.wegudgel@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=--__JNP_000_3b6c.6b7d.3a3c X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-12,14-15,15-32767 X-Juno-Att: 1 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: "Wm. E Gudgel" Resent-Message-ID: <"cB9rI.0.I33.dmcC_"@mx1> Resent-From: gudgel-list@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/2704 X-Loop: gudgel-list@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: gudgel-list-request@eskimo.com This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_3b6c.6b7d.3a3c Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Victor Zamouline To: wegudgel@juno.com Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 03:18:50 +0200 (CEST) Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Derni=E8re_jam_Br=E9sil_au_Somo_avant_les_vacances_!?= Message-ID: <20030804011850.3B87C5800116@mwinf0401.wanadoo.fr> ----__JNP_000_3b6c.6b7d.3a3c Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


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----__JNP_000_3b6c.6b7d.3a3c-- ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From gudgel-list-request@eskimo.com Thu Aug 7 09:48:55 2003 Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id JAA32702; Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:47:02 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 09:47:02 -0700 Message-ID: <002d01c35d02$985aa160$8eec1342@jagudgel.wwdb.org> Reply-To: "Jennette A. Gudgel" From: "Jennette A. Gudgel" To: Cc: "Gudgel List" Subject: Re: Hannah Gudgel's children Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:40:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0024_01C35CD8.A81EFBC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"8c2Ib3.0.t-7.5AeC_"@mx1> Resent-From: gudgel-list@eskimo.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/2705 X-Loop: gudgel-list@eskimo.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: gudgel-list-request@eskimo.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C35CD8.A81EFBC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Doyal.........what an interesting turn. Do we know who paid the $1,000? That might be a clue. -----Original Message----- From: Ralph Johnson To: Jennette A. Gudgel Cc: Gudgel List Date: Thursday, August 07, 2003 10:08 AM Subject: Re: Hannah Gudgel's children =20 =20 Could this have to do with indenturing the children? I recall = another indenturing by a Gudgel of a child for him to learn a trade. I = cant remember the details right now. This was a form of slavery all as = nefarious as black slavery. How well the indentured person (slave) was = treated depended entirely upon their owner. A very excellent book on = White slavery was written by Michael Hoffman II in his book " They Were = White and They Were Slaves: The Untold History of the Enslavement of Whites in Early America." = you can get it from Hoffman = http://www.hoffman-info.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=3DBooks = =20 Doyal Gudgel =20 Jennette A. Gudgel wrote: =20 A once sum payment for all until adulthood? -----Original Message----- From: Dianne Holmes To: nancy miller Cc: Linda Gudgel Finnell ; Gudgel List Date: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 3:56 PM Subject: Re: Hannah Gudgel's children =20 Interesting. Does anyone know what the $1,000 bond was all about? That was a huge sum then. Dianne G-H nancy miller wrote: =20 Linda and others >From "Gibson County, Indiana Source Book" Vol. II compiled by Terry Nolcox there are transcriptions from Probate Order Book A, and the June Term 1819 has the following entry: Ordered that James Stewart be and he is hereby appointed Guardian to Polly Forbes late Polly Musick aged about sixteen years & Ephraim Musick aged about fifteen years Jefferson Musick aged about thirteen years John Musick aged about eleven years & Nancy Musick aged about nine years minor children to Jesse Musick Decd and that he enter into bond and security to be approved of by the clerk of this court in the sum of one thousand dollars conditioned as the law directs in such cases made & provided I do not have any idea who James Stewart was - I find him only mentioned one other time in these court records and he is there an administrator of another person giving an accounting. Birth dates were figured from their ages in the above and I also have children of most of them if you are interested, that I have picked up mainly from census records. Nancy ----- Original Message ----- From: Linda Gudgel Finnell To: Gudgel List Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 6:22 PM Subject: Hannah Gudgel's children Nancy- Can you share with us the birth dates of Hannah's children and any other information? Also could you subit the information on the Guardianship papers? I haven't seen those. Thanks, Linda nancy miller wrote: 
Linda and others
>From "Gibson County, Indiana Source Book" Vol. II compiled =
by Terry
Nolcox there are transcriptions from Probate Order Book A, and the
June Term 1819 has the following entry:

Ordered that James Stewart be and he is hereby appointed Guardian to
Polly Forbes late Polly Musick aged about sixteen years & Ephraim
Musick aged about fifteen years Jefferson Musick aged about thirteen
years John Musick aged about eleven years & Nancy Musick aged about
nine years minor children to Jesse Musick Decd and that he enter into
bond and security to be approved of by the clerk of this court in the
sum of one thousand dollars conditioned as the law directs in such
cases made & provided

I do not have any idea who James Stewart was - I find him only
mentioned one other time in these court records and he is there an
administrator of another person giving an accounting.

Birth dates were figured from their ages in the above and I also have
children of most of them if you are interested, that I have picked up
mainly from census records.

Nancy

    Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 6:22 PM
    Subject: Hannah Gudgel's children

    Nancy-
    Can you share with us the birth dates of Hannah's children and any
    other information?  Also could you subit the information on the
    Guardianship papers?  I haven't seen those.

    Thanks, Linda




The children's ages would indicate that they were too young to be 
indentured.
Dianne G-H

Ralph Johnson wrote:

> Could  this have to do with indenturing the children?  I recall 
> another indenturing by a Gudgel of a child for him to learn a trade. 
>  I cant remember the details right now.  This was a form of slavery 
> all as nefarious as black slavery.  How well the indentured person 
> (slave)  was treated  depended entirely upon their owner.  A very 
> excellent book on White slavery was written by Michael Hoffman II in 
> his book " They Were White and They Were Slaves:
> The Untold History of the Enslavement of Whites in Early America." you 
> can get it from Hoffman 
>  http://www.hoffman-info.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=Books  
>
> Doyal Gudgel
>
> Jennette A. Gudgel wrote:
>
>>A once sum payment for all until adulthood?
>>    
>>




From: Ralph Johnson 
To: dianeh@corecom.net
CC: "Jennette A. Gudgel" ,
Subject: Re: Hannah Gudgel's children

That is absolutely not  so.  A husband had absolute control of his 
family.  Just about as total as the Patriarch of the Roman clans in the 
Roman empire. The only difference was he could not put them to death.  
Before the American revolution it was possible for a man to even sell 
his wife into slavery.  When and if a law was passed outlawing this I do 
not know.

Doyal

Dianne Holmes wrote:

> The children's ages would indicate that they were too young to be 
> indentured.
> Dianne G-H
>
> Ralph Johnson wrote:
>
>> Could  this have to do with indenturing the children?  I recall 
>> another indenturing by a Gudgel of a child for him to learn a trade. 
>>  I cant remember the details right now.  This was a form of slavery 
>> all as nefarious as black slavery.  How well the indentured person 
>> (slave)  was treated  depended entirely upon their owner.  A very 
>> excellent book on White slavery was written by Michael Hoffman II in 
>> his book " They Were White and They Were Slaves:
>> The Untold History of the Enslavement of Whites in Early America." 
>> you can get it from Hoffman 
>>  http://www.hoffman-info.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=Books 
>> Doyal Gudgel
>>
>> Jennette A. Gudgel wrote:
>>
>>> A once sum payment for all until adulthood?
>>>   
>>
>
>
>
From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
Subject: Fw: Hannah Gudgel's children
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:37:07 -0700


----- Original Message -----=20
From: Vivian Gudgell=20
To: nancy miller=20
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: Hannah Gudgel's children


Hello,
If you read Nancy's message again, you will see that the children's =
father was dec'd.  It is common practice for the court to appt a =
guardian for minor children after a person dies.  It appears to me that =
the person needed to be bonded to assure that he performed his duties as =
guardian.
Vivian
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: nancy miller=20
  To: Linda Gudgel Finnell ; Gudgel List=20
  Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 1:18 PM
  Subject: Re: Hannah Gudgel's children


  Linda and others
  From "Gibson County, Indiana Source Book" Vol. II compiled by Terry =
Nolcox there are transcriptions from Probate Order Book A, and the June =
Term 1819 has the following entry:

  Ordered that James Stewart be and he is hereby appointed Guardian to =
Polly Forbes late Polly Musick aged about sixteen years & Ephraim Musick =
aged about fifteen years Jefferson Musick aged about thirteen years John =
Musick aged about eleven years & Nancy Musick aged about nine years =
minor children to Jesse Musick Decd and that he enter into bond and =
security to be approved of by the clerk of this court in the sum of one =
thousand dollars conditioned as the law directs in such cases made & =
provided

  I do not have any idea who James Stewart was - I find him only =
mentioned one other time in these court records and he is there an =
administrator of another person giving an accounting.

  Birth dates were figured from their ages in the above and I also have =
children of most of them if you are interested, that I have picked up =
mainly from census records.

  Nancy






Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 07:56:45 -0700
Subject: I Apologize
From: "Wm. E Gudgel" 


I Would like to Apologize to everyone about the e-mail from Victor
Zamouline.  It is SPAM mail and I did NOT intentionally send it to the
Gudgel-list.  I send this kind of trash to the Federal Trade Commission
so I must have selected the wrong e-mail address.  Please accept my
apologies and delete the message from your e-mail account.





From: aap109@webtv.net
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:05:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Surety and Bonds

I have forwarded a page that has an explanation of the current use of
securities and bonds.  It looks as though the bond is only paid if the
principal (in this case , the guardian) does not do his duty.  It seems
to me it is an effort by the court to see that the children are taken
care of.  

Ardath Potts






From: "arleigh birchler" 
Subject: Large file
Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 19:15:02 -0500

Gudgel's;

This is to warn you that the next message will have a large file.  I 
understand that some computers cough and die when you try to open a message 
with an attachment.  The subject line will be "Revolting Peasants."  It's 
meant for William, but I'm not competent tonight to find his address in my 
mailbox.



Arleigh Birchler
Musick/Porter Fan Club
1718 Fisher St #2
Madison  WI   53713
(608)251-4437





From: "Steve Varvel" 
Subject: old andrew
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:19:00 -0400

Hi Gudgel friends,

Some of the recent posts have inspired me to revisit some of the mysteries
about Old Andrew. Before I send out what I've been working on, I've got
three questions that I hope someone can help with -

1. When was Old Andrew born? I've seen 1727 used, but I don't know where it
came from. In the list archive there is a mention of an old (189*) letter
that attributes this to a tombstone, but I haven't found anything about his
actual tombstone. Does his tombstone still exist? Is there any other
evidence that points to a date of birth?

2. Andrew supposedly moved briefly to Chester Co PA in the late 1750's-early
1760's. I've been searching the Chester records and can't find anything.
Does anyone have anything related to Chester County? (I have studied the
family of Elisha Gatchel who lived in the SW corner of Chester, but they
were English and probably no relation).

3. From the list archive I learned about Terri Montigny's find of some Bucks
County records that could be tied to Old Andrew in KY. It says that his wife
is named Barbara in all instances where a name was given. Does this mean
that Barbara was mentioned in the 1757 record, or was she not mentioned
until later records? (I'm trying to nail down when Andrew and Barbara were
married).

Thanks alot, lots more soon!

Steve Varvel




Dianne Holmes wrote:  (the way she emails and CCs the list makes it not go
directly to the archive.  I have to manually paste it in)


Good for you  in trying to help sort out the problems. Yes, we have 1727 
or 30 as the approximate date of Old Andrew's death. He was 88 when he 
died in 1815. The tombstone was put up long after his death by the DAR 
or some other group. Is that right--those of you who know about the stone?

Don't know anything about Chester Co, PA in the 1750s.

Andrew and Barbara's names appear in (what became Fayette Co, PA) land 
records in 1770s-80s or there abouts. We know Andrew was there in 1768 
because that is very clear from the journal record that got published in 
all the PA history books for that time period from Rev Steele's visit 
there. That is also where we learned that Gudgel was also spelled once 
at least, Gudgeon.

But don't get excited and think the Maryland genie records for an 
earlier time where you find a Gudgeon family is actually Gudgel because 
it isn't and even a family history book that links the two is in error 
but it is an interesting point that remains unsolved (the Gudgel/Gudgeon 
names).

I believe another of you on the Gudgel list did some great research in 
the Quaker or Mennonite records and found some Gudgels in Chester Co who 
married outside the church or rather didn't wait for the marriage to be 
approved which at times could take yrs I understand. I could be mistaken 
as to this info coming from Chester Co, PA however. Anyone care to comment?

Don't forget the Daniel Gudgel problem. I think a lot of us figure he is 
a key mystery that will  help answer many other questions if we can 
figure out who his parents were.
Dianne Gudgel-Holmes

Steve Varvel wrote:

>Hi Gudgel friends,
>
>Some of the recent posts have inspired me to revisit some of the mysteries


Dianne Holmes said:

I think we are too far removed to tell much at this point. For sure we 
know Daniel was related somehow but DNA could never tell us exactly if 
Daniel was Andrew's son. The best we could hope for would be that 
Daniel's descendants are more closely related to the Gudgels than 
non-gudgels.

If anyone else knows more, chime in.
Dianne G-H

Vivian Gudgell wrote:

>Dianne,
>You mentioned having a DNA test done for some reason.  If we tested a
>Daniel descendent and a known Andrew Sr. descendent wouldn't we know
>for sure if Daniel was a son of Andrew?
>Does anyone know how much a DNA test would cost?
>Our son, Dennis, is a direct descendent of Daniel.  Who would qualify
>for Andrew?
>Vivian



From: "Finnell, Linda" 
Subject: Computer Down For A Few Days
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:39:45 -0400

Hi Folks-

I am sure you are all aware of the new worm, Love San,  that has attacked so
many computers using microsoft.....well, you guessed it--
it got me yesterday!!  Took my tower in today to be cleaned up.  They are
swamped at this point.  So for a few days I will be checking my mail at
work.  And sounds like the chat was just getting to some good stuff about
old Andrew too !!

Anyone else having problems?  I am getting awfully tired of this virus and
worm business.  I upgrade my AVG virus protection weekly and it still got
through.  I understand there was no virus protection to detect this or at
least the fix had not been released for public use prior to the attack.

Keep it going guys....I'll check in at work.

Linda
from KY



From: Gudgeld@aol.com
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:52:17 EDT
Subject: Re: old andrew
To: dianeh@corecom.net, gudgel-list@eskimo.com

Dianne;

I have a photo of "Old" Andrews tombstone from a visit we made there three or 
four years ago.  It lists his death date as Aug. 16, 1815 and his age as 88 
years.  If that is near correct, it would make his birth year 1727 plus or 
minus a year.  That is probably where the 1727 date came from.

Dave Gudgel
Tucson, AZ

I have a photo of "Old" Andrews tombstone from a visit we made there three o=
r four years ago.  It lists his death date as Aug. 16, 1815 and his age=
 as 88 years.  If that is near correct, it would make his birth year 17=
27 plus or minus a year.  That is probably where the 1727 date came fro=
m.



Dave Gudgel

Tucson, AZ





Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:40:26 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
To: Vivian Gudgell 
CC: dianeh@corecom.net, Steve Varvel ,
Subject: Re: old andrew

Dianne would qualify.  I have a picture of William Gudgel the last son 
of Andrew. She is descended from andrew through william. I vote that 
Dianne  finds out what dna costs.
Doyal Gudgel  (her dad)

Vivian Gudgell wrote:

>Dianne,
>You mentioned having a DNA test done for some reason.  If we tested a
>Daniel descendent and a known Andrew Sr. descendent wouldn't we know
>for sure if Daniel was a son of Andrew?





Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:40:36 -0700
From: "arleigh birchler" 
To: gudgel-list@eskimo.com, musickfamily@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Fwd: Re: old andrew
X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list

>Subject: Re: old andrew
>Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:33:38 -0800
>
>I think we are too far removed to tell much at this point. For sure we know 
>Daniel was related somehow but DNA could never tell us exactly if Daniel 
>was Andrew's son. The best we could hope for would be that Daniel's 
>descendants are more closely related to the Gudgels than non-gudgels.
>
>If anyone else knows more, chime in.
>Dianne G-H
>
>Vivian Gudgell wrote:
>
>>Dianne,
>>You mentioned having a DNA test done for some reason.  If we tested a
>>Daniel descendent and a known Andrew Sr. descendent wouldn't we know
>>for sure if Daniel was a son of Andrew?
>>Does anyone know how much a DNA test would cost?
>>Our son, Dennis, is a direct descendent of Daniel.  Who would qualify
>>for Andrew?
>>Vivian
>>

Gudgel's;

There has been some detailed discussion in the Musick group about DNA 
testing.  I know I have seen messages giving the cost, where it can be done, 
etc.  Should I try to dig some of it out for you?



Arleigh Birchler
Musick/Porter Fan Club
1718 Fisher St #2
Madison  WI   53713
(608)251-4437




Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:49:04 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
To: dianeh@corecom.net
CC: "Mia K. Fleegel" ,
        Steve Varvel , gudgel-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: old andrew

Of course he couldn't have been the gudgel we are lookikng  for being 
born in 1760

Doyal Gudgel Sr

Dianne Holmes wrote:

> Good job of summarizing our early knowledge of Andrew's whereabout, 
> Mia. As always, you are great. This one is worth keeping so we don't 


An amazing expose of the  Rapture Cult. Read about Dispensationalism in the book. "The Incredible Scofield and His Book " by Joseph Canfield. Contact Ralph for a copy of this suppressed hard to find book
http://www.eskimo.com/~ralphj/scofield.html


Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:03:28 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
CC: gudgel-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: old andrew

I should have said the widow of William  My first mistake today.

Doyal G sr

Ralph Johnson wrote:

> Dianne would qualify.  I have a picture of William Gudgel the last son 
> of Andrew. She is descended from andrew through william. I vote that 








From: "Steve Varvel" 
Subject: 
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:15:41 -0400

Wow! Thanks for the great responses! You've all helped me tremendously.

It sounds like 1727 is a pretty solid time frame for Andrew's birth. That
Woodford County record of the apprenticeship of Abraham claiming he was 70
years old must have meant 17, right? It just does't make any sense why
Andrew's age would have been given and not Abraham's, the subject of the
record. [just enough to plant a seed of doubt though].

First of all, several of you mentioned that Andrew received the patent for
his Bucks County land in 1743, but nobody mentioned a 1735 survey for 300
acres in Bucks County. Somewhere in your archives this 1735 survey is
mentioned, without a source - has anyone seen this 1735 survey? Even if the
1735 date is disregarded, the patent process usually took awhile, so it's
extremely unlikely that Andrew first entered the land as late as 1743. [I'm
not sure an unnaturalized immigrant could have even received a patent – if
we could check on this we could prove there were two Andrews]

This suggests that this was another Andrew, an idea reinforced by the
reference in the Montgomery County history about Frederick and Andrew being
brothers (seemingly corroborated by that Franconia librarian you mentioned).
But here’s what I can’t figure out - if we believe that the owner of this
land was an older Andrew, then doesn’t it follow that this older Andrew was
married to Catharine and had the two children baptized at the Tohickon
Church? Can this be?

On the other hand, if we disregard the 1735 survey (since I’ve never seen
the source) and assume that the Montgomery County historian was just wrong
about Frederick and Andrew being brothers, and suppose that it could have
been done before being naturalized, then I suppose there’s a small chance
that father Frederick may have started the process and then had it patented
in his son’s name when he turned 16. Is this plausible?

One thing that I found a year or so ago in a database on Ancestry.com was
the baptism of  “Andreas Godshal” on Nov 13, 1768 at Redstone – father
Andreas Godshal, mother Anna Barbara. The sponsors of this baptism were my
ancestors – Johannes Wirbel and wife Elizabeth. This record comes from “John
Conrad Bucher's Pastoral Record, Cumberland and Dauphin County,
Pennsylvania, 1763-1769”. I looked into Conrad Boucher and he was a
traveling Reformed minister who visited the small frontier communities who
had no church. This dates Andrew’s marriage to Barbara before 1768.

Thanks again for sending out so much great stuff so quickly!

Steve Varvel




Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:24:40 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
Subject: Pictures wanted

Years ago I wherever I went  I took my photo copy stand   and copied all 
the gudgel pictures I could find.  Now with the Gudgel list I have the 
opportunity  to add to my collection. Mainly several generations back; 
not too recent though because of the huge number available. .  I believe 
I am the only one who has a picture of the generation following Old 
Andrew.  This picture is the widow of William Gudgel the last son of 
Andrew. This one is of his widow sitting in front of the cabin Andrew 
built.  There is always the possibility  that some one else has picture 
going way back too and those are the one I am interested in.  I'd like 
to contact anyone who has pictures of a Gudgel  the first or second 
generation following Andrew.  Maybe the third generation but that may 
too close. There probably wont be any pictures of the first generation 
like I have but there may be someone with the next generation. If there 
are picturesof the third generation I woujld like to talk about them 
too.  Like dates and who they are.

Doyal Gudgel Sr.

-- 

An amazing expose of the  Rapture Cult. Read about Dispensationalism in the book. "The Incredible Scofield and His Book " by Joseph Canfield. Contact Ralph for a copy of this suppressed hard to find book
http://www.eskimo.com/~ralphj/scofield.html


Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:01:52 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: Steve Varvel 
Subject: Re: more Old Andrew questions

Yes, wow! I can't recall if I've heard of the 1768 baptism of "Anderas" 
at Redstone (Fayette Co, PA). Surely this must be Andrew jr, but then 
what do we do with the info that Andrew Jr was born in Baltimore in 
1760. Does anyone know for sure when Andrew jr was born?

Steve, all of your ideas hold water. Now just which one is correct? Good 
thinking. I wish we could find out if an unnaturalized person could hold 
land. Great research question for someone.
Dianne Gudgel-Holmes

Steve Varvel wrote:

>Wow! Thanks for the great responses! Youve all helped me tremendously.
>
>It sounds like 1727 is a pretty solid time frame for Andrews birth. That
>Woodford County record of the apprenticeship of Abraham claiming he was 70
>years old must have meant 17, right? It just doesnt make any sense why
>Andrews age would have been given and not Abrahams, the subject of the
>record. [just enough to plant a seed of doubt though].
>
>First of all, several of you mentioned that Andrew received the patent for
>his Bucks County land in 1743, but nobody mentioned a 1735 survey for 300
>acres in Bucks County. Somewhere in your archives this 1735 survey is
>mentioned, without a source - has anyone seen this 1735 survey? Even if the
>1735 date is disregarded, the patent process usually took awhile, so its
>extremely unlikely that Andrew first entered the land as late as 1743. [Im
>not sure an unnaturalized immigrant could have even received a patent  if
>we could check on this we could prove there were two Andrews]
>
>This suggests that this was another Andrew, an idea reinforced by the
>reference in the Montgomery County history about Frederick and Andrew being
>brothers (seemingly corroborated by that Franconia librarian you mentioned).
>But heres what I cant figure out - if we believe that the owner of this
>land was an older Andrew, then doesnt it follow that this older Andrew was
>married to Catharine and had the two children baptized at the Tohickon
>Church? Can this be?
>
>On the other hand, if we disregard the 1735 survey (since Ive never seen
>the source) and assume that the Montgomery County historian was just wrong
>about Frederick and Andrew being brothers, and suppose that it could have
>been done before being naturalized, then I suppose theres a small chance
>that father Frederick may have started the process and then had it patented
>in his sons name when he turned 16. Is this plausible?
>
>One thing that I found a year or so ago in a database on Ancestry.com was
>the baptism of  Andreas Godshal on Nov 13, 1768 at Redstone  father
>Andreas Godshal, mother Anna Barbara. The sponsors of this baptism were my
>ancestors  Johannes Wirbel and wife Elizabeth. This record comes from John
>Conrad Bucher's Pastoral Record, Cumberland and Dauphin County,
>Pennsylvania, 1763-1769. I looked into Conrad Boucher and he was a
>traveling Reformed minister who visited the small frontier communities who
>had no church. This dates Andrews marriage to Barbara before 1768.
>
>Thanks again for sending out so much great stuff so quickly!
>
>Steve Varvel
>
>
>
>  
>


From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
To: 
References:  <3F3B17C0.3040609@corecom.net>
Subject: Re: more Old Andrew questions
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:27:14 -0700

Dianne,
If you look at a map of Pennsylvania you will see that the route from
Bucks county to Baltimore is pretty direct.  If the family was in the
process of moving west to Fayette county, they may have been going
close to Baltimore when the baby Andrew was due.  I believe Mia said
they moved to Fayette Co in 1768, and then they could have had him
baptized when they got there.  Does anyone know how long it would take
a family to migrate across Pennsylvania in 1768?
Vivian Gudgell

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dianne Holmes" 
To: "Steve Varvel" 
Cc: 
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: more Old Andrew questions


: Yes, wow! I can't recall if I've heard of the 1768 baptism of
"Anderas"
: at Redstone (Fayette Co, PA). Surely this must be Andrew jr, but
then
: what do we do with the info that Andrew Jr was born in Baltimore in
: 1760. Does anyone know for sure when Andrew jr was born?
:
: Steve, all of your ideas hold water. Now just which one is correct?
Good
: thinking. I wish we could find out if an unnaturalized person could
hold
: land. Great research question for someone.
: Dianne Gudgel-Holmes
:
:

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:11:27 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: Vivian Gudgell 
Subject: Re: more Old Andrew questions

Yes, I've looked at the old maps and wondered about the very thing you 
mentioned. Also, I feel Old Andrew had to have been in Redstone before 
1768 because he seemed to be well established when Rev Steele came 
through to give the illegal settlers the word from the Penn Brothers. 
 I've tried to find out if Andrew was part of the 100 families that the 
Ohio Company tried to get to settle in that area as part of their 
contract several decades earlier. But my research into Christopher 
Gist's papers didn't reveal specific names. I did however, find a letter 
in a book I ordered via interlibrary loan one time that indicated that 
the a Mr Darlington? (Darling? I don't have the letter in front of me) 
seemed to have access to such a list of settlers). I tried to find Mr 
Darlington's papers in the library archives from whom I got the book but 
was not able too. I feel that if I go visit the library  (in PA) I 
should strike paydirt. I'll try to dig out the letter and post it for 
you all but I have a carpenter coming in a few minutes.
Dianne G-H

Vivian Gudgell wrote:

>Dianne,
>If you look at a map of Pennsylvania you will see that the route from
>Bucks county to Baltimore is pretty direct.  If the family was in the
>process of moving west to Fayette county, they may have been going
>close to Baltimore when the baby Andrew was due.  I believe Mia said
>they moved to Fayette Co in 1768, and then they could have had him
>baptized when they got there.  Does anyone know how long it would take
>a family to migrate across Pennsylvania in 1768?
>Vivian Gudgell
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dianne Holmes" 
>To: "Steve Varvel" 
>Cc: 
>Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 10:01 PM
>Subject: Re: more Old Andrew questions
>
>
>: Yes, wow! I can't recall if I've heard of the 1768 baptism of
>"Anderas"
>: at Redstone (Fayette Co, PA). Surely this must be Andrew jr, but
>then
>: what do we do with the info that Andrew Jr was born in Baltimore in
>: 1760. Does anyone know for sure when Andrew jr was born?
>:
>: Steve, all of your ideas hold water. Now just which one is correct?
>Good
>: thinking. I wish we could find out if an unnaturalized person could
>hold
>: land. Great research question for someone.
>: Dianne Gudgel-Holmes
>:
>:
>
>
>
>  
>



From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
To: "Gudgel List" 
Subject: Andrew GUDGEL and 2nd wife, Barbara
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:17:53 -0400

I am back on line.  Yes, it was the Love San Worm and they have applied =
the patch to fix me up.  I may have missed something  but am wondering =
about the statment below about Andrew and Barbara.  Does the Joseph =
WOODFILL Bible specifically say that Barbara's maiden or last  name was =
HOCH?  I haven't seen that in print but the late, Dr. Jim Pope told me =
he thought her name could have been HOCH.  Also, so far, the early PA =
deeds is the only place I have seen her name mentioned and it is seen as =
Barbara and Barbary.

Keep it going guys!
Linda


Andrew and Barbara
>
>It is also the Woodfill connection that states that Barbara Hoch  is =
listed
>in the Joseph Woodfill Bible as married to Andrew Gudgel in =
1757.However, we
>don't have a copy of the Bible record that I know of.
>
>The only proof I have of Barbara as the wife of Andrew is on the deeds =
in
>Fayette Co., PA when Andrew and Barbara sold their land in 1788. Does =
anyone
>have any other proof??





From: "Steve Varvel" 
Subject: Catharine Gaschel in Cheshire
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:17:40 -0400

Hi everybody,

Before I go on I just have to say Kudos to the Gudgel thing you’ve got going
on here. I’ve really enjoyed looking into this family.

I’ve been looking more into the Chester County connection, and made it back
to the library today and I may have come across something interesting….

There was a “Katherine Gaschel” who witnessed (along with a Thomas Jones) a
mortgage of a Thomas Guest to a Samuel Flower, Esq. of East Nantmeal,
Chester County on May 1, 1755 [Chesher Land Record Abstracts 1753-1765]. The
land was east of Brandywine Creek, probably just south of E. Nantmeal in
Uwchlan twp. Who was this Catharine?

The Elisha Gatchell family of Nottingham, Chester County is well represented
in the records, but they are all from Nottingham, in the SW (English) part
of the county. However, this mention of a Catharine comes from the northern
part of the county – where the Germans where. Furthermore, the Quaker
Chester County Gatchell records from Nottingham mention no Catharine born
who could have been an adult in 1755, so I doubt she was part of that
family. There also didn’t appear to be any other names around similar enough
to “Gaschel” to be confused with.

It’s possible that this Catharine may have been a granddaughter of the
Mennonite Deacon Jacob Gottshalk, who lived at Towamencin (just east of
Skippack). I know the names of some of his granddaughters, but not all of
them, so this can’t be ruled out.

However, it’s also possible that this Catharine may be the wife of the
Andrew mentioned in the early Bucks County records.

The confirmation of Andrew’s 1735 Bucks County survey is proof that there
was an older Andrew. Knowing this, I tend to believe the Montgomery County
History account that the Andrew on Tohickon Creek, the one we know was
married to Catharine and thus probably the same one who fathered the two
daughters in 1751 and 1753, was actually Fredericks brother, not his son.

However, the Andrew living in Richland in 1757 seems clearly identified as
our “Old Andrew”. It’s worth noting that Richland is several miles NW of
Hilltown, making it a little easier to separate him from the earlier Andrew.

So if the early Bucks records are the older Andrew, what happened to him
after 1753? Since we haven’t come up with any post-1753 records for him,
maybe he died. Unfortunately, the death records of the Tohickon Lutheran
congregation don’t seem to have survived, but it may be significant that
there are no more baptisms after 1753. If he had died, leaving a widow
Catharine, maybe she went to East Nantmeal, Cheshire County by 1755.

So are there any connections that can be made with these families and
Cheshire County that might make such a move plausible? I think there are,
involving primarily the Hoch and Holdeman families. I’ll send out what I’ve
got soon, but it’s getting late – Goodnight!








Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:58:45 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
Subject: Troopships

Once in  the past I found a list of troopships that sailed from NY 
during WW2.  In the meanitme I lost where it was.  I am looking for the 
sailing of the Queen Elizabeth in  1945  as I was on it and want to get 
a date when it sailed.  Anyone know where I can find it? 
-- 




From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: WELCOME TO HARRIEL GUDGELL
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 15:15:38 -0400

Hi Folks,
We have a new list member as of today!  Everyone welcome Harriell Lee =
GUDGELL of Lexington, Kentucky.  Harriell has been researching the =
GUDGELL's for a number of years and he is descended from the Bath Co., =
KY line. =20

I believe his line of descent is as follows:

Harriel Lee GUDGELL.> Wallace Lee GUDGELL > Louis Calf GUDGELL > Joseph =
GUDGELL > Allen GUDGELL > Andrew, Jr. > Andrew, Sr.

Harriell, please feel free to correct me if necessary .

Harriell has a brother, Paul Wade GUDGELL, who reigns from Texas, and =
both are subscribers to the GUDGEL CONNECTIONS newsletter also.

So, folks, say hello to Harriell.  We hope we'll be hearing from him =
soon. It's great to have another Kentuckian on board besides myself!

Linda
from Kentucky




From: Gudgeld@aol.com
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:01:36 EDT
Subject: WW II Troop ships

Doyal;

You might give this site a try for WW II Troop ships.  I don't know how good 
it is, but it is the first one I ran across.  
http://members.aol.com/troopship/index.htm


Dave Gudgel
Tucson, AZ






From abirchler16@hotmail.com Sun Aug 17 17:23:24 2003
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:07:02 -0700
From: arleigh birchler 
To: mfleegel@adelphia.net, dianeh@corecom.net, varvel@comcast.net
Cc: gudgel-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: old andrew

Folks;

I read in a recent message that Andrew Gudgel's gravestone in Gibson County 
was erected by the D.A.R.   Can anyone verify this, or add any more 
information?  My families book said he was a Revolutionary War soldier.  I 
later learned that this was probably wrong, but that he might have provided 
support to the Continental Army in the forms of supplies, etc.



Arleigh Birchler
Musick/Porter Fan Club
1718 Fisher St #2
Madison  WI   53713
(608)251-4437



>From: "Mia K. Fleegel" 
>To: , "Steve Varvel" 
>CC: 
>Subject: Re: old andrew
>Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:39:13 -0400
>
>Here is what I have in answer to Steve's questions:
>
>I have two sources of Andrew's birth, neither one of which is primary:
>
>1. His Tombstone states: "Andrew GUDGEL died Aug. 16, 1815 aged 88 years".
>His tombstone is in the Gudgel Cemetery near Owensville, Gibson County, IN.




Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:41:51 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: Steve Varvel 
Subject: Re: Catharine Gaschel in Cheshire

Yes, I agree Steve. Good logical thinking here. There were two Andrews. 
That is pretty clear by figuring the ages and the fact that young 
men/teens would not have had the ability to own land in 1730s--unless as 
you or someone mentioned that it was due to acquiring title through a 
will. I say we try to keep looking for another marriage for Catherine or 
her death record and marriage records for those daughters born in 1750s.
Dianne Gudgel-Holmes

Steve Varvel wrote:

>Hi everybody,
>
>Before I go on I just have to say Kudos to the Gudgel thing youve got going
>on here. Ive really enjoyed looking into this family.
>


<<>>



Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:28:26 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: Gudgel List 
Subject: note my new address

Dear cyber cousins,
    I've had to bite the bullet and create a new e-mail address because 
of the spam. It isn't that we don't have an effective spam trap, it is 
because it takes hours to download the thousands of messages that 
accumulate after we return from a trip.

So please guard my new address and do not send messages with lots of 
other folks' e-mail addresses copied in the heading. Make sure you blind 
cc all such addresses if you don't do a 'list' of some sort.

I'd appreciate a sentence back that you are still alive and have noted 
the new address which you may begin using immediately. There will be an 
overlap period for as long as I want--I'll try for a week or so.  It is 
such a pain to change this address.

If some of you get two messages from me, it is because you are special 
and I wanted to make sure you received a special note aside from the 
gudgel list group.

My new address is: dianne@corecom.net

Thanks,
Dianne Gudgel-Holmes




To: MusickPorter@yahoogroups.com
From: "Arleigh Birchler" 
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 23:39:28 -0000
Subject: [MusickPorter] Obey you Doctor...

Gang;

I am never sure which side of the family is going to amaze me the 
most.  This is from the Porter side, one of their neighbors...

Recorded in "A History of Livingston County, Missouri" page  67 
giving the history of Grand River Township is an anecdote concerning 
Doctor Wolfskill: "Doctor Wolfskill was the earliest practicing 
physician, one day called to prescribe for a lady. She declared, no 
doubt truthfully,  that no doctor had ever set foot in her house 
before. He left some powders with directions to take them in water. 
The well-meaning and obedient lady, to follow his directions 
literally, had brought in a barrel of water into which she climbed 
before she took the powders."








To: MusickPorter@yahoogroups.com
From: "Arleigh Birchler" 
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:29:03 -0000
Subject: [MusickPorter] I think so...

Janice;

It looks to me like you are subscribed.  I am a novice at this, and 
can't be sure.  Have you received any messages from the list?


Arleigh

--- In MusickPorter@yahoogroups.com, "janicehancock2001" 
 wrote:
> Hi, I sent a message in and it appears on the Musick/Porter list, 
> but I am getting personal email stating I am not a member????
> 
> I logged into this fine, do you know why I am getting those 
> messages? 
> 
> Thanks
> Janice



To: MusickPorter@yahoogroups.com
From: "arleigh birchler" 
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:58:12 -0500
Subject: [MusickPorter] bouncing messages

Folks;

I think I know why we are getting messages saying we are not members.  I 
have the Gudgel List as a member, and they are rejecting messages from 
Musick/Porter because I didn't do something right.  I will remove them as 
members of Musick/Porter, and things should improve.  We may even see peace 
in the Middle East...



Arleigh Birchler
Musick/Porter Fan Club
1718 Fisher St #2
Madison  WI   53713
(608)251-4437








From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: Abraham GUDGEL and Elizabeth HARBISON
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:16:52 -0400

Hi Folks-

I have often wondered but never found an answer to the question of =
whether Abraham GUDGEL and Elizabeth HARBISON had other children besides =
Abram (abrham) GUDGEL, who married Anne Elizabeth BURCH.

I have been going through some old notes and did find reference to this =
fact:

Abraham, Sr. and Elizabeth married July 12, 1808, Woodford Co., KY
2 children born to Abraham GUDGEL, Sr.  and Elizabeth HARBISON:
1 male b. 1808-1810 in KY=20
1 male b. June 10, 1814 in (KY or IN?) who died November 29, 1880. This =
would have been Abram (Abraham, who marr. Anne Elizabeth BURCH).

Who was this male child born 1808-1810?

Abram (Abraham) was apprenticed to William Graham April 9, 1830 to learn =
the blacksmith trade in Woodford Co., KY (Bk. C-2, pg. 563) when he was =
17 years old.
Why was Abram still in Woodford Co., KY in 1830 when his father had died =
in 1815?  When did they go to Jefferson Co., IN?

If Abraham, Sr. died in 1815 he was 29 years of age and I believe he =
died in Jefferson Co., IN.  Did Elizabeth HARBISON GUDGEL marry again?  =
Did she have other children?  What is the birth and death dates/location =
for Elizabeth?

I know this is a lot of questions but I want to make sure I have the =
record straight.  Can anyone help?

>From Linda
in Kentucky

Thunderstorms on the way, otherwise, it's hot but gorgeous weather.








Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:10:05 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: Linda Gudgel Finnell 
Subject: Re: *spam* Abraham GUDGEL and Elizabeth HARBISON

Interesting questions Linda. I have always wondered about the older kids 
of Old Andrew and what they were doing in KY as many seem not to have 
moved to Indiana. Do you know for sure that Abraham Sr went to IN?

Who all stayed in KY and how old would they have been in 1811 when Old 
Andrew left for IN? Does anyone have this info at their fingertips?

Have a happy labor day and for our end-of-summer event in Alaska I am 
attempting to get a laboring party together to work on the wilderness 
greenbelt trail that we built last yr. No maintenance has been done this 
summer to speak of. We need to cut devil's club, alders, haul gravel by 
hand to fill in some spots, dig  out drainage ditches under the 
boardwalks, shellac the bench at the old  beaver pond, and replant some 
stuff from our trail onto a neighboring trail that has just gotten 
widened 4 miles away. Now isn't that all appropriate for Labor Day. How 
about you?

PS Stephen Gudgel--write me please.

Dianne Gudgel-Holmes


Linda Gudgel Finnell wrote:

> Hi Folks-
>  
> I have often wondered but never found an answer to the question of 
> whether Abraham GUDGEL and Elizabeth HARBISON had other children 
> besides Abram (abrham) GUDGEL, who married Anne Elizabeth BURCH.
>  
> I have been going through some old notes and did find reference to 
> this fact:
>  
> Abraham, Sr. and Elizabeth married July 12, 1808, Woodford Co., KY
> 2 children born to Abraham GUDGEL, Sr.  and Elizabeth HARBISON:
> 1 male b. 1808-1810 in KY
> 1 male b. June 10, 1814 in (KY or IN?) who died November 29, 1880. 
> This would have been Abram (Abraham, who marr. Anne Elizabeth BURCH).
>  
> Who was this male child born 1808-1810?
>  
> Abram (Abraham) was apprenticed to William Graham April 9, 1830 to 
> learn the blacksmith trade in Woodford Co., KY (Bk. C-2, pg. 563) when 
> he was 17 years old.
> Why was Abram still in Woodford Co., KY in 1830 when his father had 
> died in 1815?  When did they go to Jefferson Co., IN?
>  
> If Abraham, Sr. died in 1815 he was 29 years of age and I believe he 
> died in Jefferson Co., IN.  Did Elizabeth HARBISON GUDGEL marry 
> again?  Did she have other children?  What is the birth and death 
> dates/location for Elizabeth?
>  
> I know this is a lot of questions but I want to make sure I have the 
> record straight.  Can anyone help?
>  
> From Linda
> in Kentucky
>  
> Thunderstorms on the way, otherwise, it's hot but gorgeous weather.
>  
>  
>  
>





From: aap109@webtv.net
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 08:08:58 -0500 (CDT)
To: lfinnell@infionline.net (Linda Gudgel Finnell), Gudgel-List@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Abraham GUDGEL and Elizabeth HARBISON

Abraham Gudgel died in Jefferson Co., Ind.  His will inventory is in
Jefferson Co., Ind. Will Book A- dated 7th of October 1815.  We have
found no information as to the fate of the first son who was indicated
in the 1810 census, then never heard of again.  We do show that
Elizabeth may have remarried to Thomas Acre.  The following is probably
a Jefferson Co., Ind. marriage record------- Thomas Acre, Elizabeth
Gudgil                5 November 1818 by Sam McKinley, JP.  I do not
have the source noted. 

We do not have birth and death dates for Elizabeth.  However,  it
appears certain that she and Abraham did, in fact, go to Indiana.
Remember that her sister, Jane, was married to Abraham's brother, John.
John and Jane settled and  remained in Jefferson Co., Ind. until their
deaths and raised a large family there.   Another Gudgel who chose to
settle in  this area  is Daniel.  And we have yet to establish a
relationship!!!

Ardath Potts





From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: Abraham GUDGEL and Elizabeth HARBISON
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:16:52 -0400

Hi Folks-

I have often wondered but never found an answer to the question of =
whether Abraham GUDGEL and Elizabeth HARBISON had other children besides =
Abram (abrham) GUDGEL, who married Anne Elizabeth BURCH.

I have been going through some old notes and did find reference to this =
fact:

Abraham, Sr. and Elizabeth married July 12, 1808, Woodford Co., KY
2 children born to Abraham GUDGEL, Sr.  and Elizabeth HARBISON:
1 male b. 1808-1810 in KY=20
1 male b. June 10, 1814 in (KY or IN?) who died November 29, 1880. This =
would have been Abram (Abraham, who marr. Anne Elizabeth BURCH).

Who was this male child born 1808-1810?

Abram (Abraham) was apprenticed to William Graham April 9, 1830 to learn =
the blacksmith trade in Woodford Co., KY (Bk. C-2, pg. 563) when he was =
17 years old.
Why was Abram still in Woodford Co., KY in 1830 when his father had died =
in 1815?  When did they go to Jefferson Co., IN?

If Abraham, Sr. died in 1815 he was 29 years of age and I believe he =
died in Jefferson Co., IN.  Did Elizabeth HARBISON GUDGEL marry again?  =
Did she have other children?  What is the birth and death dates/location =
for Elizabeth?

I know this is a lot of questions but I want to make sure I have the =
record straight.  Can anyone help?

>From Linda
in Kentucky

Thunderstorms on the way, otherwise, it's hot but gorgeous weather.







Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 20:52:14 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: aap109@webtv.net
CC: Linda Gudgel Finnell , Gudgel-List@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: *spam* Re: Abraham GUDGEL and Elizabeth HARBISON

Arath,
Thanks for reminding us of things we likely have data on but are not 
always able to piece together easily.  But you mentioned that Daniel 
went to Indiana? I thought he went to ILL??
Dianne G-H

aap109@webtv.net wrote:

>Abraham Gudgel died in Jefferson Co., Ind.  His will inventory is in
>Jefferson Co., Ind. Will Book A- dated 7th of October 1815.  We have
>found no information as to the fate of the first son who was indicated
>in the 1810 census, then never heard of again.  We do show that
>Elizabeth may have remarried to Thomas Acre.  The following is probably
>a Jefferson Co., Ind. marriage record------- Thomas Acre, Elizabeth
>Gudgil                5 November 1818 by Sam McKinley, JP.  I do not
>have the source noted. 
>
>We do not have birth and death dates for Elizabeth.  However,  it
>appears certain that she and Abraham did, in fact, go to Indiana.
>Remember that her sister, Jane, was married to Abraham's brother, John.
>John and Jane settled and  remained in Jefferson Co., Ind. until their
>deaths and raised a large family there.   Another Gudgel who chose to
>settle in  this area  is Daniel.  And we have yet to establish a
>relationship!!!
>
>Ardath Potts
>
>  
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Abraham GUDGEL and Elizabeth HARBISON
> From:
> "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
> Date:
> Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:16:52 -0400
> To:
> "Gudgel List" 
>
>
> Hi Folks-
>  
> I have often wondered but never found an answer to the question of 
> whether Abraham GUDGEL and Elizabeth HARBISON had other children 
> besides Abram (abrham) GUDGEL, who married Anne Elizabeth BURCH.
>  
> I have been going through some old notes and did find reference to 
> this fact:
>  
> Abraham, Sr. and Elizabeth married July 12, 1808, Woodford Co., KY
> 2 children born to Abraham GUDGEL, Sr.  and Elizabeth HARBISON:
> 1 male b. 1808-1810 in KY
> 1 male b. June 10, 1814 in (KY or IN?) who died November 29, 1880. 
> This would have been Abram (Abraham, who marr. Anne Elizabeth BURCH).
>  
> Who was this male child born 1808-1810?
>  
> Abram (Abraham) was apprenticed to William Graham April 9, 1830 to 
> learn the blacksmith trade in Woodford Co., KY (Bk. C-2, pg. 563) when 
> he was 17 years old.
> Why was Abram still in Woodford Co., KY in 1830 when his father had 
> died in 1815?  When did they go to Jefferson Co., IN?
>  
> If Abraham, Sr. died in 1815 he was 29 years of age and I believe he 
> died in Jefferson Co., IN.  Did Elizabeth HARBISON GUDGEL marry 
> again?  Did she have other children?  What is the birth and death 
> dates/location for Elizabeth?
>  
> I know this is a lot of questions but I want to make sure I have the 
> record straight.  Can anyone help?
>  
> From Linda
> in Kentucky
>  
> Thunderstorms on the way, otherwise, it's hot but gorgeous weather.
>  
>  
>  





From: aap109@webtv.net
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 08:04:17 -0500 (CDT)
To: dianne@corecom.net, gudgel-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Abraham GUDGEL and Elizabeth HARBISON


In March, 2001, Mia Fleegel put a letter on the website stating a case
for Daniel being a son of old Andrew.  I am quoting her now, "Several of
old Andrew's children went to Jefferson Co., IN including Susannah and
Elizabeth (who married Woodfill brothers) and John (my ancestor) and
Abraham (who married Harbison sisters).  Daniel also went to Jefferson
Co., IN about the same time 1814 and died there in 1819.  I think he
went there to be near his brothers and sisters." 
 We have a copy of his will which was proven October 25, 1821 and
recorded on Nov. 9th, 1821 in Jefferson Co., IN., Will Book A. p. 331.
A couple of his sons went to Illinois.

About a year or so ago,  I asked Naomi Keith Sexton, a researcher in
Jefferson Co. who has been doing this for years, to see if she could
find a family connection between Daniel and these others.  She could not
find any in the public records.  We feel it may be in the church records
- maybe as sponsors for baptisms, etc.  
But have not looked there.

Ardath Potts


Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 20:52:14 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: aap109@webtv.net
Cc: Linda Gudgel Finnell , Gudgel-List@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: *spam* Re: Abraham GUDGEL and Elizabeth HARBISON

Arath,
Thanks for reminding us of things we likely have data on but are not 
always able to piece together easily.  But you mentioned that Daniel 
went to Indiana? I thought he went to ILL??
Dianne G-H

aap109@webtv.net wrote:

>Abraham Gudgel died in Jefferson Co., Ind.  His will inventory is in
>Jefferson Co., Ind. Will Book A- dated 7th of October 1815.  We have
>found no information as to the fate of the first son who was indicated
>in the 1810 census, then never heard of again.  We do show that
>Elizabeth may have remarried to Thomas Acre.  The following is probably
>a Jefferson Co., Ind. marriage record------- Thomas Acre, Elizabeth
>Gudgil                5 November 1818 by Sam McKinley, JP.  I do not
>have the source noted. 
>
>We do not have birth and death dates for Elizabeth.  However,  it
>appears certain that she and Abraham did, in fact, go to Indiana.
>Remember that her sister, Jane, was married to Abraham's brother, John.
>John and Jane settled and  remained in Jefferson Co., Ind. until their
>deaths and raised a large family there.   Another Gudgel who chose to
>settle in  this area  is Daniel.  And we have yet to establish a
>relationship!!!
>
>Ardath Potts
>
>  
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Abraham GUDGEL and Elizabeth HARBISON
> From:
> "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
> Date:
> Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:16:52 -0400
> To:
> "Gudgel List" 
>
>
> Hi Folks-
>  
> I have often wondered but never found an answer to the question of 
> whether Abraham GUDGEL and Elizabeth HARBISON had other children 
> besides Abram (abrham) GUDGEL, who married Anne Elizabeth BURCH.
>  
> I have been going through some old notes and did find reference to 
> this fact:
>  
> Abraham, Sr. and Elizabeth married July 12, 1808, Woodford Co., KY
> 2 children born to Abraham GUDGEL, Sr.  and Elizabeth HARBISON:
> 1 male b. 1808-1810 in KY
> 1 male b. June 10, 1814 in (KY or IN?) who died November 29, 1880. 
> This would have been Abram (Abraham, who marr. Anne Elizabeth BURCH).
>  
> Who was this male child born 1808-1810?
>  
> Abram (Abraham) was apprenticed to William Graham April 9, 1830 to 
> learn the blacksmith trade in Woodford Co., KY (Bk. C-2, pg. 563) when 
> he was 17 years old.
> Why was Abram still in Woodford Co., KY in 1830 when his father had 
> died in 1815?  When did they go to Jefferson Co., IN?
>  
> If Abraham, Sr. died in 1815 he was 29 years of age and I believe he 
> died in Jefferson Co., IN.  Did Elizabeth HARBISON GUDGEL marry 
> again?  Did she have other children?  What is the birth and death 
> dates/location for Elizabeth?
>  
> I know this is a lot of questions but I want to make sure I have the 
> record straight.  Can anyone help?
>  
> From Linda
> in Kentucky
>  
> Thunderstorms on the way, otherwise, it's hot but gorgeous weather.
>  
>  
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 08:09:23 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: aap109@webtv.net
Subject: Re: Abraham GUDGEL and Elizabeth HARBISON

So the mystery of Daniel G continues. Thanks for the clarification on 
Dan and In/Ill.

By the way, has Dan's will been published for our G-list group?
Dianne G-H

aap109@webtv.net wrote:

>In March, 2001, Mia Fleegel put a letter on the website stating a case
>for Daniel being a son of old Andrew.  I am quoting her now, "Several of
>old Andrew's children went to Jefferson Co., IN including Susannah and
>Elizabeth (who married Woodfill brothers) and John (my ancestor) and
>Abraham (who married Harbison sisters).  Daniel also went to Jefferson
>Co., IN about the same time 1814 and died there in 1819.  I think he
>went there to be near his brothers and sisters." 
> We have a copy of his will which was proven October 25, 1821 and
>recorded on Nov. 9th, 1821 in Jefferson Co., IN., Will Book A. p. 331.
>A couple of his sons went to Illinois.
>
>About a year or so ago,  I asked Naomi Keith Sexton, a researcher in
>Jefferson Co. who has been doing this for years, to see if she could
>find a family connection between Daniel and these others.  She could not
>find any in the public records.  We feel it may be in the church records
>- maybe as sponsors for baptisms, etc.  
>But have not looked there.
>
>Ardath Potts
>
>  
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: *spam* Re: Abraham GUDGEL and Elizabeth HARBISON
> From:
> Dianne Holmes 
> Date:
> Sat, 30 Aug 2003 20:52:14 -0800
> To:
> aap109@webtv.net
>
>
> Arath,
> Thanks for reminding us of things we likely have data on but are not 
> always able to piece together easily.  But you mentioned that Daniel 
> went to Indiana? I thought he went to ILL??
> Dianne G-H
>
> aap109@webtv.net wrote:
>
>> Abraham Gudgel died in Jefferson Co., Ind.  His will inventory is in
>> Jefferson Co., Ind. Will Book A- dated 7th of October 1815.  We have
>> found no information as to the fate of the first son who was indicated
>> in the 1810 census, then never heard of again.  We do show that
>> Elizabeth may have remarried to Thomas Acre.  The following is probably
>> a Jefferson Co., Ind. marriage record------- Thomas Acre, Elizabeth
>> Gudgil                5 November 1818 by Sam McKinley, JP.  I do not
>> have the source noted.
>> We do not have birth and death dates for Elizabeth.  However,  it
>> appears certain that she and Abraham did, in fact, go to Indiana.
>> Remember that her sister, Jane, was married to Abraham's brother, John.
>> John and Jane settled and  remained in Jefferson Co., Ind. until their
>> deaths and raised a large family there.   Another Gudgel who chose to
>> settle in  this area  is Daniel.  And we have yet to establish a
>> relationship!!!
>>
>> Ardath Potts
>>
>>  
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Subject:
>> Abraham GUDGEL and Elizabeth HARBISON
>> From:
>> "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
>> Date:
>> Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:16:52 -0400
>> To:
>> "Gudgel List" 
>>
>>
>> Hi Folks-
>>  
>> I have often wondered but never found an answer to the question of 
>> whether Abraham GUDGEL and Elizabeth HARBISON had other children 
>> besides Abram (abrham) GUDGEL, who married Anne Elizabeth BURCH.
>>  
>> I have been going through some old notes and did find reference to 
>> this fact:
>>  
>> Abraham, Sr. and Elizabeth married July 12, 1808, Woodford Co., KY
>> 2 children born to Abraham GUDGEL, Sr.  and Elizabeth HARBISON:
>> 1 male b. 1808-1810 in KY
>> 1 male b. June 10, 1814 in (KY or IN?) who died November 29, 1880. 
>> This would have been Abram (Abraham, who marr. Anne Elizabeth BURCH).
>>  
>> Who was this male child born 1808-1810?
>>  
>> Abram (Abraham) was apprenticed to William Graham April 9, 1830 to 
>> learn the blacksmith trade in Woodford Co., KY (Bk. C-2, pg. 563) 
>> when he was 17 years old.
>> Why was Abram still in Woodford Co., KY in 1830 when his father had 
>> died in 1815?  When did they go to Jefferson Co., IN?
>>  
>> If Abraham, Sr. died in 1815 he was 29 years of age and I believe he 
>> died in Jefferson Co., IN.  Did Elizabeth HARBISON GUDGEL marry 
>> again?  Did she have other children?  What is the birth and death 
>> dates/location for Elizabeth?
>>  
>> I know this is a lot of questions but I want to make sure I have the 
>> record straight.  Can anyone help?
>>  
>> From Linda
>> in Kentucky
>>  
>> Thunderstorms on the way, otherwise, it's hot but gorgeous weather.
>>  
>>  




From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: GUDGEL's to Jefferson Co., IN
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:28:17 -0400

Ardath-

While we're on the subject there is something else I want to throw in.  =
As you said, Susannah and Elizabeth GUDGEL married WOODFILL brothers and =
eventually went to Jefferson Co., IN also.  It seems strange to me that =
the only place Susannah and Elizabeth GUDGEL WOODFILL have ever showed =
up was in the WOODFILL research.
Think about it.  After many years of researching the GUDGEL family I had =
never found reference to these girl's being the daughter's of old Andrew =
until I began working on the WOODFILL's.  And even in the research =
articles of Robert TURMAN he never mentioned either of these girls as =
the children of old Andrew when he listed his children in his newspaper =
articles..

Maybe we are on to something here.  Have we thought about the possiblity =
of these two girl's being the daughters of Andrew, the brother of old =
Frederick and not the daughters of Frederick's son, Andrew?  I just =
remember when these two girl's surfaced that it was strange that I had =
never run across them before.  And I still don't have them listed =
because I am not sure yet.

Any comments are welcome! =20
Linda



Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 11:37:47 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: Linda Gudgel Finnell 
Subject: Re: *spam* GUDGEL's to Jefferson Co., IN

Linda,
Interesting idea about the Gudgel/Woodfill sisters being from Andrew the 
brother? of Fred Gudgel, but don't we have a fair amount of info on how 
Andrew took in the Woodfill kids for a time after their mother died? 
Could those oral histories from Daniela tell us more? Is Daniela still 
on our list group?

And I forget what Old Andrew's will listed as far as kids go (I think it 
was mainly the kids from his last marriage). And how far is/was 
Jefferson Co, IN from Gibson Co where Old Andrew went? One might think 
if they were all related they would go to the same county (unless it 
really was the same area and got split up later with new county boundaries).

 Does anyone have the wills of these sisters?

Linda Gudgel Finnell wrote:

Dianne G-H

> Ardath-
>  
> While we're on the subject there is something else I want to throw 
> in.  As you said, Susannah and Elizabeth GUDGEL married WOODFILL 
> brothers and eventually went to Jefferson Co., IN also.  It seems 
> strange to me that the only place Susannah and Elizabeth GUDGEL 
> WOODFILL have ever showed up was in the WOODFILL research.
> Think about it.  After many years of researching the GUDGEL family I 
> had never found reference to these girl's being the daughter's of old 
> Andrew until I began working on the WOODFILL's.  And even in the 
> research articles of Robert TURMAN he never mentioned either of these 
> girls as the children of old Andrew when he listed his children in his 
> newspaper articles..
>  
> Maybe we are on to something here.  Have we thought about the 
> possiblity of these two girl's being the daughters of Andrew, the 
> brother of old Frederick and not the daughters of Frederick's son, 
> Andrew?  I just remember when these two girl's surfaced that it was 
> strange that I had never run across them before.  And I still don't 
> have them listed because I am not sure yet.
>  
> Any comments are welcome! 
> Linda
>  






From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: Daniel GUDGEL
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:22:05 -0400

It appears that Daniel GUDGEL went to Jefferson Co., IN about 1814.  Old =
Andrew and Abraham died the same year-- 1815.  Daniel died in 1819.  =
Just getting this striaght in my head.  We've seen the Will of Daniel =
GUDGEL.  Were there newspapers printed in 1819 in Jefferson Co., IN?  =
Has anyone tried to chek the microfilm on these for Daniel's death obit, =
if there was one?  Most funeral and death notices were very elaborate in =
the early days of newspaper publishing and tended to give a lot of =
detail.

Just a thought.

Linda





From: aap109@webtv.net
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:25:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Fwd: Re: Daniel GUDGEL

Ardath Potts


From: aap109@webtv.net
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:23:30 -0500 (CDT)
To: lfinnell@infionline.net (Linda Gudgel Finnell)
Subject: Re: Daniel GUDGEL


Linda,  The early newspapers in Jefferson County were rather thoroughly
researched and indexed  by local people.  I did not find any obit  when
I went through the index; Mia's brother did not find any obit when he
went through it; and Naomi did not come up with anything when she
researched it. The reference is titled,        " Items from Early
Newspapers of Jefferson County, Indiana, 1817-1886"

We did find mention of the death of Elizabeth Gudgel, wife of T.B.  This
is Thornton, son of Daniel.

We also found a notice that Mrs. Sarah Gudgel, age 93, died in
Lombardsville, IL
Sarah is wife of Stephen, son of Daniel.

Then there were undertaker records from 1840-1866  noting the death of
T.B. Gudgel's child in 1854 and of his wife one month later (obviously
from complications of childbirth).   

So there is info. to substantiate that they were living there.  But
nothing to prove Daniel's connection to the other Gudgels.  
I've reread my Woodfill or Woodfield information.  I do not find
anything that proves the relationships of the Gudgel sisters to Andrew
or Daniel.  However, Daniel Woodfield and wife, Elizabeth were named in
the land dispute in 1823.  So Elizabeth, at least, was most certainly
old Andrew's daughter.

Ardath Potts





From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: Daniel GUDGEL
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:22:05 -0400

It appears that Daniel GUDGEL went to Jefferson Co., IN about 1814.  Old =
Andrew and Abraham died the same year-- 1815.  Daniel died in 1819.  =
Just getting this striaght in my head.  We've seen the Will of Daniel =
GUDGEL.  Were there newspapers printed in 1819 in Jefferson Co., IN?  =
Has anyone tried to chek the microfilm on these for Daniel's death obit, =
if there was one?  Most funeral and death notices were very elaborate in =
the early days of newspaper publishing and tended to give a lot of =
detail.

Just a thought.

Linda


From: "nancy miller" 
Subject: Indiana Counties
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:00:49 -0700

Gibson County is in the western edge and almost in the southern corner.  It
broke off from Knox county in 1813.  Jefferson County is clear in the
southern edge and almost to the eastern side of Indiana and it was formed in
1811.  Jefferson is rather north and a little west (as the crow flies)of
Woodford County Kentucky, but we have no record of Old Andrew being in
Jefferson County, isn't that correct?  I don't know why or how he got to
Gibson County, since it is so much farther west - maybe on down the Ohio
river.

And as for Turman's articles, he was in Gibson and/or Posey Counties, so I
think only mentioned names that came up in that area.

Nancy Miller




From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: Elizabeth and Susannah GUDGEL
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:16:54 -0400

Oh me-- I have made an error.  I did know of Elizabeth GUDGEL and Daniel =
WOODFIELD's marriage.  I am so sorry-- it was Susannah GUDGEL that =
married a WOODFIELD that I had never heard of till the WOODFIELD =
research was begun.

And the Robert TURMAN newspaper articles did name all of his children =
according to Mr. TURMAN- or at least the ones who came from PA to KY =
with him.=20

Sorry for the confusion.

Linda


From: "arleigh birchler" 
To: nteel@lightspeed.net
Subject: Re: Indiana Counties
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 18:16:50 -0500

Nancy, et al;

I think the area that would become Gibson County was one of the early 
population centers in Indiana Territory.  A lot of families seem to have 
come through there.  When Illinois County, Virginia, was made into Indiana 
Terrirory, it was divided into St Clair County in the West, and Knox County 
in the East.  Both extended from the Ohio to the Canadian border.

Arleigh Birchler
Musick/Porter Fan Club
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MusickPorter/
1718 Fisher St #2
Madison  WI   53713
(608)251-4437

Note:  Please let me know if you got on this list by mistake.  I try hard to 
keep from sending mail to people who don't want it.  I sometimes add names 
to my address book, and then am not aware that they are still there.   RLB




>From: "nancy miller" 
>To: "Gudgel List" 
>Subject: Indiana Counties
>Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:00:49 -0700
>
>Gibson County is in the western edge and almost in the southern corner.  It
>broke off from Knox county in 1813.  Jefferson County is clear in the
>southern edge and almost to the eastern side of Indiana and it was formed 
>in
>1811.  Jefferson is rather north and a little west (as the crow flies)of
>Woodford County Kentucky, but we have no record of Old Andrew being in
>Jefferson County, isn't that correct?  I don't know why or how he got to
>Gibson County, since it is so much farther west - maybe on down the Ohio
>river.
>
>And as for Turman's articles, he was in Gibson and/or Posey Counties, so I
>think only mentioned names that came up in that area.
>
>Nancy Miller
>

From: aap109@webtv.net
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:33:27 -0500 (CDT)
To: V.Gudgell@verizon.net (Vivian Gudgell), gudgel-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Daniel GUDGEL

Vivian, I'm sorry.  You are right.  Thornton is son of Stephen, not
Daniel.  He is grandson of Daniel.

Ardath Potts

From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
To: , "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: Re: Daniel GUDGEL
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:04:43 -0700

Ardith,
Did you mean to say that Thornton B. was the grandson of Daniel?
I have him as the son of Stephen, s/o Daniel.
Vivian Gudgell


----- Original Message ----- 
From: 
To: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: Daniel GUDGEL


: Linda,  The early newspapers in Jefferson County were rather
thoroughly
: researched and indexed  by local people.  I did not find any obit
when
: I went through the index; Mia's brother did not find any obit when
he
: went through it; and Naomi did not come up with anything when she
: researched it. The reference is titled,        " Items from Early
: Newspapers of Jefferson County, Indiana, 1817-1886"
:
: We did find mention of the death of Elizabeth Gudgel, wife of T.B.
This
: is Thornton, son of Daniel.
:
: We also found a notice that Mrs. Sarah Gudgel, age 93, died in
: Lombardsville, IL
: Sarah is wife of Stephen, son of Daniel.
:
: Then there were undertaker records from 1840-1866  noting the death
of
: T.B. Gudgel's child in 1854 and of his wife one month later
(obviously
: from complications of childbirth).
:
: So there is info. to substantiate that they were living there.  But
: nothing to prove Daniel's connection to the other Gudgels.
: I've reread my Woodfill or Woodfield information.  I do not find
: anything that proves the relationships of the Gudgel sisters to
Andrew
: or Daniel.  However, Daniel Woodfield and wife, Elizabeth were named
in
: the land dispute in 1823.  So Elizabeth, at least, was most
certainly
: old Andrew's daughter.
:
: Ardath Potts
:
:



From: "nancy miller" 
Subject: Re: Elizabeth and Susannah GUDGEL
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:18:21 -0700

You're right Linda, Turman mentions 14 children.  First there are 4 that =
are mentoned in Old Andrew's will:  William, Sophia, Nancy and Hetty.  =
Then he mentions 6 that are included in a Kentucky court document or =
bill dated Sept. 16, 1819 [does anyone have a copy of it?], they are:  =
Andrew Jr., daughter Elizabeth wife of Daniel Woodfield, Sarah, wife of =
Jacob Stucker, Mary, wife of Michael Odem, Jean or Jane, unmarried and =
Hannah, wife of Jesse Musick.  Then Turman goes on to name 4 more and he =
doesn't say where he got them from:  Elijah Gudgell, who spent his life =
in Mercer County, Ky., were (sic) he was married June 5, 1819 to Lidda =
(or Sarah) Bell; Abraham, born Jan. 26, 1786, whom the records show was =
"apprenticed on April 9, 1803 to William Graham of Woodford County, Ky., =
" John Gudgell, a miller who lived at Jeffersonville, Ind.; and Helen, =
of whom I have no record.
The above is all quoted from p.394 of "Genealogy Newspaper Columns of =
Robert E. Turman", copyright 1981.

Nancy
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Linda Gudgel Finnell=20
  To: Gudgel List=20
  Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 4:16 PM
  Subject: Elizabeth and Susannah GUDGEL


  Oh me-- I have made an error.  I did know of Elizabeth GUDGEL and =
Daniel WOODFIELD's marriage.  I am so sorry-- it was Susannah GUDGEL =
that married a WOODFIELD that I had never heard of till the WOODFIELD =
research was begun.

  And the Robert TURMAN newspaper articles did name all of his children =
according to Mr. TURMAN- or at least the ones who came from PA to KY =
with him.=20

  Sorry for the confusion.

  Linda




From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: Helen GUDGEL
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:42:10 -0400

Nancy-
Helen Gudgel mentioned in the court trial land records is Hetty (a/k/a =
Hester or Helen), a daughter of old Andrew's 3rd wife, Elizabeth =
"Betsey") PAYN(E).  She married Harrison Davis McGary.  I have a copy of =
the original land trial records and also a transcribed edition.

And about Turman naming Elijah as a child of old Andrew...I beleive that =
to be an error.  Elijah, who married in 1819 to Lidda "Milly" Bell  in =
Mercer Co., KY was the grandson of old Andrew.  Elijah was the son of =
Jacob GUDGEL and Druscilla DRISKILL who married in 1791 in Woodford Co., =
KY.  Elijah was b. September 9, 1796 in KY
(probably Woodford Co.).  For the record, he didn't live in Mercer Co.- =
he only married there.  That's where Lydia"Milly" Bell's family lived.  =
It was right on the border of Mercer and Anderson County where they all =
lived but Elijah lived and died in Anderson Co.  He is buried in the old =
GUDGEL Cemetery on Rice Road in Anderson Co.  This is where his farm was =
and there is a private family cemetery there. =20

Another reason I believe Turman's information was incorrect in naming =
Elijah the son of our old Andrew is because I remember my father, Norman =
Gudgel, telling me that there were two Jacob Gudgel's, a son and a =
grandson.  The line went: Old Andrew> Jacob> Elijah> Jacob.  He said =
they referred to the older Jacob as "Old Jake" and the grandson was =
known as Jake.  This is my direct line so I suppose that's why I always =
remembered it.

That's all for now.  Going to bed.
Nite all.
Linda





From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
To: "Gudgel-list" 
Subject: RE Question-- Daniel's grave
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:48:34 -0700

Hello,
Does anyone know where Daniel Gudshall/Gudgell is buried?  His will
was proven in Jefferson Co. IN 1821. Has anyone checked the burials in
Jefferson Co. IN.?
Vivian





From: "nancy miller" 
To: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" ,
Subject: Re: Helen GUDGEL
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:44:16 -0700


Thanks Linda, I didn't realize that Hetty was also known as Helen, and =
obviously, Turman didn't either.  I'm sure we could poke other holes in =
some of his writings, but it does give us something to start with.  As =
you noted, Eilijah is there, but did you notice that Jacob is not in =
Turman's list? =20
I would very much like to see a copy of those court records, and I =
wonder if they might be printed in the Gudgel Family Connection =
sometime?  I know that I have heard references to them for years.
Nancy
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Linda Gudgel Finnell=20
  To: Gudgel List=20
  Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 8:42 PM
  Subject: Helen GUDGEL


  Nancy-
  Helen Gudgel mentioned in the court trial land records is Hetty (a/k/a =
Hester or Helen), a daughter of old Andrew's 3rd wife, Elizabeth =
"Betsey") PAYN(E).  She married Harrison Davis McGary.  I have a copy of =
the original land trial records and also a transcribed edition.

  And about Turman naming Elijah as a child of old Andrew...I beleive =
that to be an error.  Elijah, who married in 1819 to Lidda "Milly" Bell  =
in Mercer Co., KY was the grandson of old Andrew.  Elijah was the son of =
Jacob GUDGEL and Druscilla DRISKILL who married in 1791 in Woodford Co., =
KY.  Elijah was b. September 9, 1796 in KY
  (probably Woodford Co.).  For the record, he didn't live in Mercer =
Co.- he only married there.  That's where Lydia"Milly" Bell's family =
lived.  It was right on the border of Mercer and Anderson County where =
they all lived but Elijah lived and died in Anderson Co.  He is buried =
in the old GUDGEL Cemetery on Rice Road in Anderson Co.  This is where =
his farm was and there is a private family cemetery there. =20

  Another reason I believe Turman's information was incorrect in naming =
Elijah the son of our old Andrew is because I remember my father, Norman =
Gudgel, telling me that there were two Jacob Gudgel's, a son and a =
grandson.  The line went: Old Andrew> Jacob> Elijah> Jacob.  He said =
they referred to the older Jacob as "Old Jake" and the grandson was =
known as Jake.  This is my direct line so I suppose that's why I always =
remembered it.

  That's all for now.  Going to bed.
  Nite all.
  Linda









Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:13:04 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: Linda Gudgel Finnell 
Subject: Re: Helen GUDGEL

Thanks to all for this interesting exchange. I was just about to ask if 
anyone had done the math to make sure some of Turman's names were not 
grandkids of Old Andrew rather than children.

And to add more mystery to the whole affair, has anyone figured out why 
Daniel went to KY from PA and then returned to  PA to live? We find him 
in the records (tax records I believe) in both states and then back in PA.

Dianne G-H

Linda Gudgel Finnell wrote:

> Nancy-
> Helen Gudgel mentioned in the court trial land records is Hetty (a/k/a 
> Hester or Helen), a daughter of old Andrew's 3rd wife, Elizabeth 
> "Betsey") PAYN(E).  She married Harrison Davis McGary.  I have a copy 
> of the original land trial records and also a transcribed edition.
>  
> And about Turman naming Elijah as a child of old Andrew...I beleive 
> that to be an error.  Elijah, who married in 1819 to Lidda "Milly" 
> Bell  in Mercer Co., KY was the grandson of old Andrew.  Elijah was 
> the son of Jacob GUDGEL and Druscilla DRISKILL who married in 1791 in 
> Woodford Co., KY.  Elijah was b. September 9, 1796 in KY
> (probably Woodford Co.).  For the record, he didn't live in Mercer 
> Co.- he only married there.  That's where Lydia"Milly" Bell's family 
> lived.  It was right on the border of Mercer and Anderson County where 
> they all lived but Elijah lived and died in Anderson Co.  He is buried 
> in the old GUDGEL Cemetery on Rice Road in Anderson Co.  This is where 
> his farm was and there is a private family cemetery there. 
>  
> Another reason I believe Turman's information was incorrect in naming 
> Elijah the son of our old Andrew is because I remember my father, 
> Norman Gudgel, telling me that there were two Jacob Gudgel's, a son 
> and a grandson.  The line went: Old Andrew> Jacob> Elijah> Jacob.  He 
> said they referred to the older Jacob as "Old Jake" and the grandson 
> was known as Jake.  This is my direct line so I suppose that's why I 
> always remembered it.
>  
> That's all for now.  Going to bed.
> Nite all.
> Linda
>  
>  



From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: Daniel Gudgel 
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:22:03 -0400

Dianne and Nancy-

To answer your question about you're wondering if TURMAN may have listed =
grandchildren...I think that is exactly what happened in the case of =
naming Elijah as a child of old Andrew.  And Nancy, you are =
right....Jacob was definitely a son and was not mentioned in the list, =
however, Jacob's son, Elijah was listed.  I think it was an error.
Heavens to pete-- I know how easy it is to do.  Names get to flying and =
they get all mixed up.  I really believe that's what happened.

Linda







From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: One more thing
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:52:39 -0400

Hope everyone will have a good Labor Day today.  My reward is not going =
to work!!  Gary and I are going to Louisville to an Antiques and =
Collectible Show today.
We just like to look.  This is where I have found my GUDGEL Dairy milk =
bottles several times.

What is everyone else doing today?

Linda
from KY

Sunshine and beautiful today.







Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 07:22:04 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
Subject: Re: Daniel Gudgel

I credit Turman with getting me started in genealogy.  I enjoyed his 
articles.

Doyal Gudgel

Linda Gudgel Finnell wrote:

> Dianne and Nancy-
>  
> To answer your question about you're wondering if TURMAN may have 
> listed grandchildren...I think that is exactly what happened in the 
> case of naming Elijah as a child of old Andrew.  And Nancy, you are 
> right....Jacob was definitely a son and was not mentioned in the list, 
> however, Jacob's son, Elijah was listed.  I think it was an error.
> Heavens to pete-- I know how easy it is to do.  Names get to flying 
> and they get all mixed up.  I really believe that's what happened.
>  
> Linda
>  
>  




From: "Connie Phillips" 
Subject: Labor Day
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 17:23:18 -0400

Linda and all the cousins,
    Hope you have a good day and find lots of bottles.  Since my father =
was a milk man for 35 years in Hoopeston, IL, I would love to find one =
of those "Gudgel bottles." I used to deliver milk with my dad on =
holidays so he would finish in time to eat with the family. Carried one =
of those 6 bottle carrier's to each front porch many times. If you ever =
find an extra one, please get it for me? I don't know what they cost, =
but I would think it would be a very unique antique to go with my corner =
cupboard that Shelby Gudgel made years ago...and my father left to me.=20

  =20
     Today we had a cookout at the club house.  Over 100 in attendance =
so a very nice day.  We were asked to furnish the desserts, so the price =
was right also. =20
Hope everyone had a great Labor Day celebration.
Connie G. Phillips
Punta Gorda, FL
 
k



From: Bob Gudgel 
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 16:29:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Labor day...


Welllll.... It's labor day so I'm Laboring !!  Or in labor... Or something like that...

No, I'm at work.   Nice easy day though...  No phone calls either.  Kinda like
a weekend...   Family and I went to the Evergreen state fair in Monroe WA
yesterday... Rodeo, Pigs animals food etc...
The 4th will be my Penny's and my 15th anniversary !  Just finished editing
my wedding videos into one DVD  (S-VCD)  Lots-O-fun !
Have a day  Y'all !!

boB
K7IQ









From: "Steve Varvel" 
Subject: RE: GUDGEL's to Jefferson Co., IN
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 09:55:49 -0400

Hi everybody,


Your recent conversation about Jefferson County, IN got me back into my
records so I thought I’d share some of what I’ve collected. The Gudgels who
came to Saluda Twp, Jefferson County were part of a larger group of
residents of the area around Glens Creek in Woodford County, KY who made the
same move sometime before 1816, and who all appeared to have settled down
together (based on their proximity in the 1820 census), including several
Stuckers and Abraham Varvel.



I don’t know exactly when these people moved, and I doubt they all left at
the same time. For example, Abraham Varvel seems to have left Woodford
County at a young age (he is last mentioned in Woodford records on an 1803
tax list), and enlisted as a Ranger in the spring of 1812 out at Vincennes
(Capt. Dunn’s Mounted Rangers). There were no Gudgels or Stuckers named in
this company.



The 1816 Jefferson County tax list names several Gudgels – Daniel
(presumably the elder), Stephen and Isaac (presumably sons of Daniel), John
(presumably son of Old Andrew), and Dave. Does anyone know who this Dave
was? I wonder if it was a mistranscription of “Danl” (Daniel’s son Daniel).



Based on the 1820 census, it appears that most of Daniel Gudgel’s sons
(Isaac, Mahlon, Nathan, and Stephen) lived among several of the Stuckers,
Abraham Varvel and Thomas Acre (who married Abraham Gudgel’s widow
Elizabeth) in Saluda twp. On the other hand, John Gudgel (Old Andrew’s son)
appeared to have lived a short distance away - In the 1820 census he is
listed a couple of pages after everyone else, and in 1817 John Gudgel
petitioned for work on the road from Lexington to Paris where it ran through
his land. From looking at an old map, this road intersects the western part
of Jefferson County – close to Saluda twp, but not quite.



Anyway, could anyone share more about Old Andrew and his move to Gibson
County, IN?  1815 was a very early date for a spot so far west! Which of his
children went with him?



Here’s some early Jefferson County data:




1816 Jefferson County Tax List
Gudgel, Dave

Gudgel, Daniel

Gudgel, Stephen

Gudgel, Isaac

Gudgell, John

Woodfill, Samuel B.

Woodfill, Gabriel

Varvil, Abraham

Stucker, Willis

Stucker, John

Stucker, Henry

Stucker, Jacob

Stucker, Michael

Stucker, William

Stucker, David



1818 Saluda Twp, Jefferson County Poll Tax
Gudgel, Daniel

Stucker, Jacob Sr.

Stucker, Jacob Junr

Stucker Jr., John

Stucker, John

Stucker, Andrew

Stucker, David





1820 Jefferson County Federal Census
p.278- Henry Stucker 231111-11100

p.278- Isaac Gudgel 000010-20100

p.278- Samuel Stucker 200100-10100

p.278- Abraham Varbel 210010-20110

p.278- Mahlan Gudgel 000100-00100

p.278- John Stucker 010101-10201

p.278- Thomas Acre 110010-21010

p.278- Nathan Gudgel 000100-10010

p.278- Stephen Gudgel 210010-01010

p.278b- Jacob Stucker 100010-00100

p.279a- John Stucker 00100-10100

p.279b- Michael Stucker 010101-10001

p.282b- John Gudgel 330010-21110

p.285- John Woodfill 010010-11010

p.287- Andrew Woodfill 220010-41110

p.288- John Woodfill 121110-13010

p.290- Samuel Woodfill 200010-20100

p.290- Gabriel Woodfill 000001-00001

p.290- Daniel Woodfill 000010-00100

p.290b- Elizabeth Woodfill 010000-02010

p.290b- Daniel Woodfill 010001-00111

p.290b- Gabriel Woodfill 000010-00010

p.290b- John Woodfill 111111-22010



Wills, Administrations, and Estate Settlements of Jefferson County, Ind.

Gudgel, Abraham. (Will Book A-49) Inventory, 7 Oct. 1815. Appraised by John
Thorn, Thomas

Nicholson.



Gudgel, Daniel. (Will Book A-335) Will Wr. 7 July 1819. Rec. 9 Nov. 1821.
Wife, Rachel, sons,

Daniel, Nathaniel, Stephen, Isaac, Mason (Malon?) Two daughters (not named).
Witnessed by

Samuel, James and Robert McKinley.



Stucker, Andrew. (Probate Book F-89 F-307) 1844. Elizabeth Stucker, gdn of
Sarah Ann, age 17

years nine mos.; Andrew J., age 15 eight mos.; Jacob A, age 14 seven mos.;
Samuel A. eight

mos., age 11; Francis M., age 10, nine mos.; Barbara C, age 7 years nine
mos.; Cynthia J, age 5

years eight mos.; William J., age 3 years seven mos. Exec: Jacob Stucker.



Stucker, Henry. (Probate Book D-276) Will Wr. 2 Aug. 1834. Rec. 20 Nov.
1834. Wife, Lydia.

Children not named.



Stucker, Henry. (Book X-596) George and Cordelia, his wife; Stephen and
Louisa, his wife;

Jacob and Jane, his wife; Elizabeth Cantrell. Quit claim to Napoleon B.
Patterson and John

Patterson.



Stucker, John. (E-350 or H350) William Gaddis, adm. Vs. Heirs of John
Stucker and Jacob

Bowman. Nancy Stucker, widow. Children: William, Jacob, Martin, Jeptha, Mary
Nancy

Susannah.



Stucker, Malissa. (Book A-231) Will Wr. 4 Sept. 1861. Rec. 14 Jan. 1862. My
dau. Joan F. Reid,

wife of John M. Reid, the farm in Saluda Twp., which was given to my
husband, Reason Stucker,

 by his father, Jacob Stucker. My decd. Dau. Sarah M. Antle, former wife of
Jacob Antle.



Stucker, Michael. (Book C-276) Will Wr. 5 Sept. 1829. Rec. 8 July 1830.
Wife, Nancy. Son, John

decd, sons, William, Jacob Martin, Jeptha; daus. Nancy, Mary, Susannah,
equal parts. Exec.:

James Glover.



Stucker, Stephen G. (Book A-473) Will Wr. 16 Apr. 1868. Rec. 1 Nov. 1869. My
wife, Louisa;

sons: Jacob H. and Charles S. Stucker. Other heirs: Catherine A.,
Montgomery, Emily J.

Chitwood, Sarah E. McFadden, Lida McFadden, Margaret Gom, Louisa P. Boyd.
John H.

Stucker and Jacob H. Stucker, my children and heirs.



Varvel, Abraham. (Book B) 1824. Margaret Varvel, adm.


Board of Commissioners Record Book A -1817
On the petition of John Gudgel for an alteration in the road that leads from

Lexington to Parris where It runs through his land -



Ordered that Stephen Gudgel be Excuse from one Days work on the Highway

for serving as Judge at an Election for Saluda Township &c –



(by the way, I've really been going through some of the PA Mennonite stuff
and will have some juicy bits soon, I'm waiting for a few more books to get
here)

-Steve Varvel






From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: GUDGEL in 1870 Montgomery Co., KY Census
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:21:23 -0400

Hi Folks-
Since I have had a few days off, you can tell I've been catching up on =
my genealogy stuff, right?  So I have a burning question today =
.................

A few days ago I found an entry in the 1870 Census of Montgomery Co., KY =
for a GUDGEL family and it's driving me crazy trying to figure out who =
it is.  (Montgomery County borders Bath Co., KY).  Maybe someone can =
shed some light on this:

1870 Census, Montgomery Co., KY-P.O. Mt. Sterling, KY
Line 1, page 315, Taken June 9, 1870

GUDGEL, SPENCER, 55, male, white, Laborer, b. KY
GUDGEL, HARRIET, 45, female, white, wife, b. KY
GUDGEL, H.G., 75, female, white, b. VA
GUDGEL, Spencer, 10, male, white, b. KY
GUDGEL, Alice, 8, female, white, b. KY
GUDGEL, Sarah, 6, female, white, b. KY
GUDGEL, Ann, 5, female, white, b. KY

The only Spence/Spencer GUDGEL I knew of was in Missouri so that ruled =
him out.  But the strange side is the H.G. GUDGEL, 75, female, b. VA.  I =
went back and looked again to make sure I had written this correctly and =
it was right.  Who could this be?

I also have had a major brick wall come down on my Joel GUDGEL line (son =
of Jacob and Drucilla).  I am thrilled!!  I've spent several years =
working on this and finally got a breakthrough.  If anyone is interested =
in this line I'll be glad to share.  I tried to send it to the list 3 =
times and it must be out there somwhere in cyberspace just floating =
around.  It never came through on the list. But this is the good stuff =
that keeps me going.

Linda
from KY

lots of rain today...good thing I hadn't planned to work outside today.







From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
To: "Steve Varvel" 
Subject: RE: Gudgels in Jefferson Co IN.
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:42:55 -0700

HI Steve,
Thanks for the Jefferson Co. Information.
I believe that Daniel GUDSHALL/GUDGELL went first to KY. and then
returned to PA. because his father-in-law, Charles GAUSE, was ill.  I
find Daniel GUTCHEL on the 1790 Fayette, Luzerne Twp. Pa. census on
the same page with Charles GAUSE and some of his sons.
On the 1800 Fayette, Luzerne Twp. Pa. I find Daniel GUTHEL, 4-1-1-1-1,
on page 561 along with Charles GAUS and several of the GAUS sons. On
Page 564 I find Henry STUCKER.  Henry STUCKER married Lydia Ann,
daughter of Daniel.
After Daniel's father-in-law died, the family moved to Jefferson
County, Indiana in 1814.

I spent all day yesterday looking at transcriptions of the Jefferson
County cemeteries, hoping to find Daniel's burial site.  He wasn't
there unless he is marked with one of the unreadable  monuments.
Vivian Gudgell





Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 15:31:48 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: Steve Varvel 
Subject: Re: GUDGEL's to Jefferson Co., IN

Steve,
Thanks for all your reseach. If someone hasn't already answered you, Old 
Andrew moved to Indiana in 1811 but I am not sure how much we know of 
the people who went with him. He was pretty much an invalid by then and 
could only sit in a chair and cut brush around him according to stories. 
He died there is 1815.
Dianne Gudgel-Holmes




Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2003 19:39:29 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: Mercury430@aol.com, "gudgel-list@eskimo.com"
Subject: Re: Helen GUDGEL


Pat,
I'm not sure. What do you have on him?
Dianne G-H

Mercury430@aol.com wrote:

> Dianne is this the same Daniel that we have been searching for since 
> the gathering?  The one I checked out when I went down to the southern 
> part of Ind. and all we got was his will.  I couldn't even prove the 
> date of death except for the will.  Is this the same Daniel you guys 
> are talking about?
>
> Pat Agnew  - Mercury430@aol.com





From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
To: "Steve Varvel" 
Subject: RE: Varvel burials
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 19:41:45 -0700

Hello, Steve,
I found a bunch of Varvel and Varble grave sites in the Bethel
Christian Church Cemetery Lexington Twp. Scott County, Indiana.  Do
you have them?  There are numerous Stucker graves, also.
Let me know if anyone wants them.
Vivian Gudgell




Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:00:38 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
Subject: Civil War

 The history of the Gudgels is so intertwined with the Civil War I want 
to highly recommend that you get a video or DVD of Ted Turner's Civil 
war pictures "Gods and Generals" and "Gettysburg".  It may just 
encourage you to keep digging in our history.  I just saw them. To me as 
a 3rd Inf. Division (WW2)  these two pictures are  the best anti-war 
pictures I have seen.  I don't think Turner made them with that in mind 
but that is the way it turned out. It may also make you take a look at 
Bush's war in Iraq. There wasn't the rah rah hooray for our side so much 
as it showed the slaughter and for what? He made interesting characters 
of the people in the movie like Stonewall Jackson and others. Each side 
had courage. North and South.   There was some politically correct 
propaganda but it was easy  to see for what it was and not a lot. .  In 
any case supporters for each side has occasion to be proud of our 
ancestors participation in the greatest event in our countries history.

Doyal Gudgel

                     




From: "arleigh birchler" 
To: abirchler16@hotmail.com
Subject: Johnny Cash  - 12/26/1932 to 9/12/2003
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:10:34 -0500

Folks;

I have been enjoying Johnny Cash's video of Trent Reznor's "Hurt".  Thought 
I would share it to mark the passing of this great human being.  Speaking at 
a 1999 tribute concert, rock star Bruce Springsteen asserted that Mr. Cash, 
''took the social consciousness of folk music, the gravity and humor of 
country music and the rebellion of rock 'n' roll and told all us young guys 
that not only was it all right to tear up all those lines and boundaries, 
but it was important.''



Nine Inch Nails - Hurt
>From the album "The Downward Spiral"


i hurt myself today
to see if i still feel
i focus on the pain
the only thing that's real
the needle tears a hole
the old familiar sting
try to kill it all away
but i remember everything
what have i become?
my sweetest friend
everyone i know
goes away in the end
you could have it all
my empire of dirt
i will let you down
i will make you hurt
i wear my crown of shit
on my liar's chair
full of broken thoughts
i cannot repair
beneath the stain of time
the feeling disappears
you are someone else
i am still right here
what have i become?
my sweetest friend
everyone i know
goes away in the end
you could have it all
my empire of dirt
i will let you down
i will make you hurt
if i could start again
a million miles away
i would keep myself
i would find a way



Arleigh Birchler
Musick/Porter Fan Club
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MusickPorter/
1718 Fisher St #2
Madison  WI   53713
(608)251-4437





Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 14:33:05 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
Subject: Signatures

Greetings f rom the far NW.  Fall is in the air.

Look folks, your name isn't Gudgel but Gudshall. What I would like to 
know is  when was it changed to Gudgel.  Bob has the signature Gudshall 
in his archives and I just looked in  some picture records I  have and a 
contract with Robert McGary  was made out to Gudshall.  So I am 
convinced the name was Gudshall.  The contract was  given by Robert and 
Patsy McGary but only to Andrew.  So he was apparently a widower by 
then.  His wife would have been included if she had been alive.

When I went to Princeton and Owensville, Indiana  I took the picture of 
the contract  It is pictured on my new webpage I am creating for my own 
family history..  I can't give you a url address becauses Bob frowns on 
html.   To take a look you can just delete the first h in the hhttp then 
copy the url and past it in the address window in you browser.    
http://www.eskimo.com/~ralphj/bobsweb_htm/dgudgel.html

So does anyone have any clue when the name was changed to Gudgel?  
Dianne said she saw it as Gudgel in PA but with the signature in PA and 
Gibson county IN something does not add up. 

Doyal Gudgel Sr.






From: Bob Gudgel 
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 16:05:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: signatures and gudgel and gudgshall


Of course you can post URLs on this list !  Those are not
HTML, just a pointer to HTML or WEB sites...
Go ahead and post URLs or web addresses...
boB


>>Dad Said:

>>>I can't give you a url address becauses Bob frowns on
html.   To take a look you can just delete the first h in the hhttp then
copy the url and past it in the address window in you browser.
http://www.eskimo.com/~ralphj/bobsweb_htm/dgudgel.html 


boB  (again)
Have a day and 1/2  Cybercousins !!




From: "arleigh birchler" 
To: ralphj@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Signatures
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 19:27:25 -0500

Doyal;

I am not a Gudgel expert.  I am listing them as Frederick Gotschall, Andrew 
Gudshall, and Hannah Gudgel, my ancestors.  I am told by a librarian in 
Franconia Township, Bucks County, Pennsylvania, that they still spell it 
Gotshall there, but pronounce it Gudgel.  I always thought Gottschalk was a 
variant, and see Hannah's name spelled that way in some books, but I am 
beginning to think there is no relationship.

This is not uncommon.  In the other branches of my family tree I have 
Mauck/Mock, Dunkin/Duncan, Musick/Music, and Keim/Kime.  People change the 
spelling of their name to match their neighbors' language.  And in the 
nineteenth century, the literacy rate was a lot lower then it is now.

My name is really RLee, but I liked the way a church secretary misspelled 
it.  Miz Zora Mae Vitt of Eudora, Kansas, is listed in the census as 
Missouri M Vitt.


Arleigh Birchler
Musick/Porter Fan Club
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MusickPorter/
1718 Fisher St #2
Madison  WI   53713
(608)251-4437

Note:  Please let me know if you got on this list by mistake.  I try hard to 
keep from sending mail to people who don't want it.  I sometimes add names 
to my address book, and then am not aware that they are still there.   RLB





>From: Ralph Johnson 
>Reply-To: ralphj@eskimo.com
>To: gudgel-list 
>Subject: Signatures
>Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 14:33:05 -0700
>
>Greetings f rom the far NW.  Fall is in the air.
>
>Look folks, your name isn't Gudgel but Gudshall. What I would like to know 
>is  when was it changed to Gudgel.  Bob has the signature Gudshall in his 
>archives and I just looked in  some picture records I  have and a contract 
>with Robert McGary  was made out to Gudshall.  So I am convinced the name 
>was Gudshall.  The contract was  given by Robert and Patsy McGary but only 
>to Andrew.  So he was apparently a widower by then.  His wife would have 
>been included if she had been alive.
>
>When I went to Princeton and Owensville, Indiana  I took the picture of the 
>contract  It is pictured on my new webpage I am creating for my own family 
>history..  I can't give you a url address becauses Bob frowns on html.   To 
>take a look you can just delete the first h in the hhttp then copy the url 
>and past it in the address window in you browser.    
>hhttp://www.eskimo.com/~ralphj/bobsweb_htm/dgudgel.html
>
>So does anyone have any clue when the name was changed to Gudgel?  Dianne 
>said she saw it as Gudgel in PA but with the signature in PA and Gibson 
>county IN something does not add up.
>
>Doyal Gudgel Sr.
>



From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: GUDSHALL beginnings
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:10:54 -0400

Hi Folks-

As far as I can tell the name was spelled GUDSHALL beginning in the =
earliest records on file here in Woodford Co., KY.  I'm not sure how it =
got changed unless it was spelled like it sounded, which happened a lot =
in those days.  And old Andrew was not literate so he probably didn't =
know it was different.  I don't believe the spelling  -- GUDSHALL-- was =
used anywhere but in KY or at least I haven't found it that I recall.  =
But as the county boundaries changed and parts of Woodford Co. became =
Franklin and Anderson Counties- the spelling was then as -- GUDGEL(L).  =
By then some of  old Andrew's children that stayed in KY really didn't =
move- their county boundaries
changed.  At one time Woodford Co. went all the way to the Ohio River.

I rememer sometime long ago in my early days of researching that some of =
the GOTTSCHALK/GOTSHALL's, etc.  who stayed PA sent word to their KY =
family that they were spelling the name wrong.  And I am sure we have =
all seen some of the same families using different spellings, =
especially--GUDGEL and GUDGELL.  My line --Jacob GUDGELL and Druscilla =
DRISKELL- used 2  "LL's".  And so did his son, Elijah GUDGELL.  Then =
when grandson Jacob GUDGELL came along they began to drop one
"L".  Arleigh, you are right about communities/neighborhoods using the =
old spellings...some people oustside the family continued to use the 2 =
"LL''s for a long time.

That's all for now. =20

Hope everyone is enjoying the late summer weather.

Linda
from KY

perfect days and nights.  Have begun to see a leaf or two drying and =
falling already.  Pulled up my zinnia's today.  Powdery mold has already =
hit.  And we have harvested the grapes about 2 weeks ago.  Pure Concord =
- we make jelly.  Haven't made any wine but I'll bet it would be great =
.  Sure signs of fall coming soon.






Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:17:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bob Gudgel 
Subject: Gudgshall VS. Gudgel(L)


The name change must have started about the time the Pony express and US
postal service and the first junk mail started...   They always mess up
my name !
Eventually, it will probably evolve back to be Gudgshall again.

boB




From: "Stephen Gudgel" <932762318@terra.es>
To: "arleigh birchler" , 
Subject: Re: Signatures
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 13:29:43 +0200

Hi,

I've actually been trying to research this from the other end, as I live in
Europe.  I still don't have anything definite, but as some of the records we
have show Gottschalk, I think Gottshall might have come from that.  I have
German friends not far from the area we assume our ancestors came from and
they say the name Gottschalk is known there, but that Gottshall, in any
spelling, would sound strange.  I am also pretty sure Frederick's original
name would have been Friedrich and Andrew was probably born Andreas.  We
find those forms of the names occasionally on our stuff too, as you've
noticed.  I'll certainly let you all know if and when I find birth records
for Friedrich and Andreas Gottschalk in Germany.

Stephen Gudgel
Barcelona






From: aap109@webtv.net
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 07:19:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Name spelling

In the early 1980's when my husband and I made our trip to Frankfort,
Ky, we spent a day researching in the archives.  There was a Gudgel
folder there.  I made copies of all that was in the folder.  One set of
information included  a letter  written by     L.W. Gudgell Princeton,
Gibson Co., Ind. to Reuben Gudgell of Owingsville, KY, in 1893.
Although he gives much more genealogical info., much of which we have
already covered on this site, he says this about the name spelling: "My
own grandfather William Gudgel was married to Lucy Thurman under the
name Godshall in 1824, and his family record down to 1833 spells the
name in the same way.  My Father says that about the year 1833, there
was a letter received from Kentucky that stated that we were spellig the
name wrong, so it was changed to Gudgel at that time."  

Steve, look at the towns that border Holland and somewhere around Goch
in Germany. Also.  they may have gone into Holland before immigrating -
to escape persecution. Many of the immigrant  ships came out of Holland.  

Ardath Potts




From: aap109@webtv.net
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 07:28:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:  I made an error.

I have just noticed that I misspelled the way L. W. Gudgel of IND.
spelled the name.  He only used one 'l' , but Reuben Gudgell of KY used
two.

Ardath Potts




From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: GUDGELL vs GUDGEL
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 12:07:43 -0400

>From my experience-

Nine times out of ten you can bet the families spelling the name GUDGELL =
came out of Bath County, KY. =20

Linda





From: "Stephen Gudgel" <932762318@terra.es>
To: , 
Subject: Re: Name spelling
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 23:48:26 +0200

Hi Ardath,

Thank you for your suggestions, good as always, and your information.  I
will certainly check that.

I don't doubt at all that your research was correct, but that doesn't mean
that what I learned from my German friends is incorrect either, as it could
all be a question of evolution.  By the 1833 records, Gottschalk, could
easily have become Godshall or Gottshall before it became Gudgel.  If it is
German, I know that the sh is basically not a possibility.  It is always sch
which becomes sh in English.  I am not sure about Dutch, but will research
it.

Another thing we Americans often don't know is that in most European
countries there are established names, and people immediately recognize
them.  In the US, we're used to names we've never heard of.  If it isn't
Smith, Jones, Black, etc., we just usally ask how it is spelled and that's
it.  In Europe, on the contrary, they almost immediately recognize that a
name is a foreign name and if it is a local name (meaning of that country),
they already know how to spell it.  So, for example if your name was
Gottschalk in Germany, they wouldn't ask you how it is spelled.  They know
the name and how to spell it.  In Spain, where I live, this concept is
pushed to the extreme, as Spanish is a phonetic language.  Here people never
ask the question 'How do you spell', and as an English teacher I have to
teach the whole concept of spelling to my students, as they are not used to
doing it.  Most of the time it isn't necessary to spell words here, but that
is changing with increased immigration.  For names, up to now, if your name
is González, Gómez, Fernández, Samaranch, etc. everybody knows how to spell
the name because it is a typical name in Spain.  If your name is different,
people immediately recognize that and then they have to ask you how to spell
it.

Based on that, I imagine that the theory that Godshall might have come from
Gottschalk is logical, as it is a name that exists, still in Germany.
Godshall, or Gottshall apparently sounds strange.

I also have good Dutch connections, too, so I will see if this variation
would be normal in Dutch.

Thanks again.  I am happy for anything that helps.

Steve






From: "Stephen Gudgel" <932762318@terra.es>
To: "arleigh birchler" ,
Subject: Re: Signatures
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 00:00:23 +0200

Hi Arleigh,

I think the fact that Gottschalk is already a common name in the US and that
you said earlier, if I recall correctly, that they also pronounce it Gudgel
is a very strong argument for Gottschalk as the original name that may have
gone through several interesting incarnations in the meantime.

Let's see what I can find out and I will certainly let you all know if/when
I have interesting news.

Stephen
Barcelona






From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
To: "Stephen Gudgel" <932762318@terra.es>,
        "arleigh birchler" ,
Subject: Re: Signatures
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 15:09:25 -0700

Steve,
You have us all excited again!  While you are checking out FRIEDRICH
and ANDREAS, please, don't forget DANIEL. Maybe they all came over
together.
Vivian




From: "Stephen Gudgel" <932762318@terra.es>
To: "Vivian Gudgell" ,
        "arleigh birchler" ,
Subject: Re: Signatures
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 00:46:20 +0200

Good point, Vivian.  I will certainly add that to my list.  Thanks for
reminding me.  I would LOVE to add something essential to this research!
You all have done so much.

Cross your fingers and all that!

Steve




Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:46:10 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
Subject: spelling not significant

Dear cousins,
I've been away for a whole 18 hrs and came home to find all these 
e-mails on the spelling of Gudgel(l)/Godshall.  Actually I've never 
thought that it was important to even consider whether it was or should 
be spelled one "L" or 2 because there was no standarized spelling in the 
1700s.

It is clear, however, that the folks who hung around KY in the early 
1800s used 2 "L"s while those who went elsewhere used one "L" or at 
least most did.

I've seen early records with Godshall/Gotshall and if you say the name 
Gotschalk like they did in those days, it will sound like Gotshall or 
Gudgel. Keep in mind who was doing the writing of the records and 
depending upon what country they were from, that is a clue as to how it 
got written phonetically (or maybe the deafness of the writer was the 
reason). So the English may have spelled it one way while the 
Germanic-speaking scibes used a different spelling. Makes sense to me.

Because anyone can spell their name however they wish, I guess it does't 
really matter.  All I know for sure is that anyone today with the name 
Gottschalk is not related to us as we have been spelling our name pretty 
much the same way since the early 1800s.
Dianne Gudgel-Holmes




From: "Stephen Gudgel" <932762318@terra.es>
To: , 
Subject: Re: spelling not significant
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:22:14 +0200

Yes, Dianne, I agree that it doesn't really matter how any of us spell it
today, but I wasn't focusing on that issue.  My interest is to know what the
name was originally and what our ancestors Andrew (Andreas) and Frederick
(Friedrich)'s spelling of the name was.  The original spelling in German
would be the correct spelling and I doubt that that varied.  I'd also like,
then, to find out exactly where they were born and where they went and when.

Stephen





Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 08:10:25 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: Stephen Gudgel <932762318@terra.es>
Subject: Re: spelling not significant

Stephen,
I think there is value in pursuing your research about Old Andrew and 
his ancestors via the spelling. According to oldest PA records a form of 
Gottschalk seems to be the way the name was spelled some of the time but 
Gotshall others. As I mentioned I figure it had more to do with the 
nationality of the scribe than anything else. But we have always been 
told and I think some records indicate that our ancestors were from the 
Palentine region which I understan was on the Swiss border with 
Germany?? Don't we have one scant ship's record for Frederick that 
indicated where the ship sailed from? I know that is not a good 
indication of where he came from though.  History books indicate there 
was a big movement of people from the Palentine during the mid 1700s I 
believe.

Perhaps the records of the Penn brothers might give us a clue where 
people came from? Has anyone read their papers?
Dianne G-H

Stephen Gudgel wrote:

>Yes, Dianne, I agree that it doesn't really matter how any of us spell it
>today, but I wasn't focusing on that issue.  My interest is to know what the
>name was originally and what our ancestors Andrew (Andreas) and Frederick
>(Friedrich)'s spelling of the name was.  The original spelling in German
>would be the correct spelling and I doubt that that varied.  I'd also like,
>then, to find out exactly where they were born and where they went and when.
>
>Stephen
>
>





From: "Jennette A. Gudgel" 
To: "Stephen Gudgel" <932762318@terra.es>,
        "arleigh birchler" , 
Subject: Re: Signatures
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:05:11 -0500

I just can't resist jumping into this discussion!

I know, you scientific researchers will choke, but sometimes
hear-say does help.
As a child, my father always said that our name was originally
Gottschalk and that we were "Pennsylvania Dutch".  Our family
comes out of the Andrew/William/John Franklin line -- Gibson
County, Indiana.  Dad would have gotten that info. from his
father who grew up in Hazelton, Givson Co.

It doesn't answer any questions, but at least, it sheds light on
what the family -- 3rd and 4th generation "thought" the facts
were.
-jennette



From: "Stephen Gudgel" <932762318@terra.es>
To: "Jennette A. Gudgel" ,
        "arleigh birchler" , 
Subject: Re: Signatures
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:55:03 +0200
Hi Jeannette,

On the contrary, I think it is quite helpful.

Stephen



From: "Stephen Gudgel" <932762318@terra.es>
To: 
Subject: Re: spelling not significant
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:50:30 +0200

Hi Dianne,

Here is something that will help you all locate it.  Click on:
http://www.zum-wohl-die-pfalz.de/eng/pfalz_e.html

Then go to The Palatinate (an option on the right) and you'll get a rather
hokey little map, but it shows where it is.  It's straight east of
Luxembourg and straight north of France, so not far from Switzerland, but
much closer to Mannheim in Germany and to Metz and Strasbourg in France.  My
German friends sent me the link.  As I said, it is rather hokey, but it does
give us a quick map.  The area is referred to as Pfalz.  Saarbrücken is in
the heart of the region and is well known and Kaiserslautern is where there
is/was a US military base, I believe.  You also see that they are proud of
their wine and I am a wine lover so also find that interesting, although
those wines could be a bit too sweet and fruity for me.

I do agree that almost every name depended on who was writing it down.
That's why all those deeds varied so much.  Also handwriting is a factor.
Remember those s's we found years back that looked like f's and had been
incorrectly transcribed as f's?  At the time of the US revolution, s's in
certain positons were almost always written that way.  So there is a lot we
have to keep in mind when coming up with our theories.

I doubt any of us want to go back to the original spelling of our name at
this point in time  :-), but that would be OK too if somebody wanted to,
and I like it that we have some Gudgels and Gudgells, but I, for one, want
to know what the real name was and I'm pretty sure we'll find out is was
Gottschalk.  I would also guess that the ones whose names are still
Gottschalk in the US may be from families who immigrated later when the
authorities had become a bit more sophisticated about German names and/or
the immigrants themselves were more literate.  It is quite likely that
Friedrich and Andreas couldn't read and write when they arrived in the US/or
colonies, and if they couldn't, they wouldn't have been able to spell it for
the scribe, leaving it even more up to the writer's imagination.

As I said before, however, I am fairly sure there would be only one spelling
for the name in Germany.  Having several varieties of the same name in
Europe is not common.  In fact, until quite recently, you couldn't even
spell your first name differently if you wanted to or give a child a name
that was not on the list of acceptable names.  Now, with the immigration
from all over the world they've had to relax those rules.

The ship record would be helpful.  If someone knows right where I can locate
that, please tell me.  It is something we could eventually match up with
emigration records.

Europeans have pretty incredible records going way, way back, and they were
even good about keeping them in deep "safes" under the ground so that most
weren't even lost in wars.  And the Germans are maybe at the top of the list
of those who keep records, so I do think we have hope.  And I imagine we are
related to those US Gottschalks, although the relationship would go back to
Germany.  Friedrich's brothers, for example?

As for the Dutch connections people mentioned, that is also quite
believeable, as all that region in Germany is an area that has been claimed
by various countries over the years and it's not far from what is now
Belgium, which was also parts of other countries, including Holland.

Anyway, one of my main interests is to find where our relatives were born in
Europe, if possible, and to visit that area.  I am sure many of you would
like to do that too.  I will commit to go Pfalz and visit churches,
cemeteries and town halls if I can get enough information to go on.  If any
of you have any suggestions or know of sources I can consult, please let me
know.

Stephen




From: "Stephen Gudgel" <932762318@terra.es>
To: "Jennette A. Gudgel" ,
        "arleigh birchler" , 
Subject: Re: Signatures

Sorry for misspelling your name Jennette.

Stephen




Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:12:30 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
To: Stephen Gudgel <932762318@terra.es>
CC: "Jennette A. Gudgel" ,
        arleigh birchler , gudgel-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Signatures

You might start a trend. :)

Stephen Gudgel wrote:

>Sorry for misspelling your name Jennette.
>

I know, you scientific researchers will choke, but sometimes
hear-say does help.
As a child, my father always said that our name was originally
Gottschalk and that we were "Pennsylvania Dutch".  Our family
comes out of the Andrew/William/John Franklin line -- Gibson
County, Indiana.  Dad would have gotten that info. from his
father who grew up in Hazelton, Givson Co.

It doesn't answer any questions, but at least, it sheds light on
what the family -- 3rd and 4th generation "thought" the facts
were.
-jennette

                                                        
                                                

From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
Cc: "Stephen Gudgel" <932762318@terra.es>
Subject:  Re Spelling our name
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:03:26 -0700



Subject: Re Spelling our name


: Steve,
: Here is a record that MAY be our Frederick.  It is the only
FREDERICK
: GOTSHALL/etc. that I have found in the immigration records.
: Notice that the names of Rev.Jacob GOTTSCHALK and his son, who came
from Holland
: area, are spelled differently.  I am pretty sure that is the record
for
: Rev. Jacob GOTTSCHALK, because of the VANDERHEGGEN name associated
: with it.
: --------------------------------------------------------------------
--
:
: Extracted from the Pennsylvania Archives, 2nd Series, Volume VII,
: Pages 121-126.
: Lists in the Pennsylvania Archives were arranged according to county
: of residence and were not alphabetized as shown on this page
:
:
: The column entitled List # refers to the following lists.
:
: 1. Recorded in 1708. Confirmed by the Queen in Council, February 20,
: 1713
: "And whereas, divers of the Protestants, or Reformed Religion who
were
: inhabitants of High and Low Germany, above Five and Twenty Years
ago,
: embraced the Invitations, &c."
:
: 2. Recorded in 1729. "Whereas divers Protestants, who were subjects
to
: the Emperor of Germany, a Prince in Amity with the Crown of Great
: Britain, transported tehmselves and Estates into the Province of
: Pennsylvania, between the years One Thousand Seven Hundred and One
: Thousand seven hundred and Eighteen
:
:
: 3. Recorded in 1734. "Whereas divers Protestants, who were subjects
to
: the Emperor of Germany, a Prince in Amity with the Crown of Great
: Britain, transported tehmselves and Estates into the Province
:  of Pennsylvania, between the years One Thousand Seven Hundred and
One
: Thousand seven hundred and Eighteen:"
: :
:4 . Recorded 1738-39. "Whereas divers Protestants, who were subjects
to
: the Emperor of Germany, a Prince in Amity with the Crown of Great
: Britain, transported tehmselves and Estates into the Province of
: Pennsylvania, between the years One Thousand Seven Hundred and One
: Thousand seven hundred and Eighteen:"
:
:
:
:       NAME
:      FROM COUNTY
:      IMMIGRATION PERIOD
:      LIST #
:      LIST YEAR
:
:
:
:       Gotshall, Frederick
:      Philadelphia
:      1700-1718
:      4
:      1738-39
:
:      VanderHeggen, Gaebshalek (son of Goetshalek Jacob)
:      Philadelphia
:      Before 1683
:      1
:      1708
:
:       VanderHeggen, Goetshalek Jacob
:      Philadelphia
:      Before 1683
:      1
:      1708
:
:
:
:


Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:18:33 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: Vivian Gudgell 
CC: Gudgel-list , Stephen Gudgel
 <932762318@terra.es>
Subject: Re: Jacob Gottschalk

All,
I know some of you have run across the famous Rev. Jacob Gottschalk, but 
as far as trying to tie him into the Gudgel line, I think he came to PA 
so much earlier than our Andrew and maybe Frederick that it would be 
fruitless to spend much time on Jacob at this point. Now maybe Fred was 
a distant relative of Jacob and that is why he came over in the 1720s 
after having so much correspondence with Jacob. But has anyone wondered 
how communication occurred between those in the old and new world when 
one of the parties was illiterate? We know Jacob was literate, but does 
anyone know if Fred was?
Dianne G-H

Vivian Gudgell wrote:

>Subject: Re Spelling our name
>
>
>: Steve,
>: Here is a record that MAY be our Frederick.  It is the only
>FREDERICK
>: GOTSHALL/etc. that I have found in the immigration records.
>: Notice that the names of Rev.Jacob GOTTSCHALK and his son, who came
>from Holland
>: area, are spelled differently.  I am pretty sure that is the record
>for
>: Rev. Jacob GOTTSCHALK, because of the VANDERHEGGEN name associated
>: with it.
>: --------------------------------------------------------------------
>--
>:
>: Extracted from the Pennsylvania Archives, 2nd Series, Volume VII,
>: Pages 121-126.
>: Lists in the Pennsylvania Archives were arranged according to county
>: of residence and were not alphabetized as shown on this page
>:
>:
>: The column entitled List # refers to the following lists.
>:
>: 1. Recorded in 1708. Confirmed by the Queen in Council, February 20,
>: 1713
>: "And whereas, divers of the Protestants, or Reformed Religion who
>were
>: inhabitants of High and Low Germany, above Five and Twenty Years
>ago,
>: embraced the Invitations, &c."
>:
>: 2. Recorded in 1729. "Whereas divers Protestants, who were subjects
>to
>: the Emperor of Germany, a Prince in Amity with the Crown of Great
>: Britain, transported tehmselves and Estates into the Province of
>: Pennsylvania, between the years One Thousand Seven Hundred and One
>: Thousand seven hundred and Eighteen
>:
>:
>: 3. Recorded in 1734. "Whereas divers Protestants, who were subjects
>to
>: the Emperor of Germany, a Prince in Amity with the Crown of Great
>: Britain, transported tehmselves and Estates into the Province
>:  of Pennsylvania, between the years One Thousand Seven Hundred and
>One
>: Thousand seven hundred and Eighteen:"
>: :
>:4 . Recorded 1738-39. "Whereas divers Protestants, who were subjects
>to
>: the Emperor of Germany, a Prince in Amity with the Crown of Great
>: Britain, transported tehmselves and Estates into the Province of
>: Pennsylvania, between the years One Thousand Seven Hundred and One
>: Thousand seven hundred and Eighteen:"
>:
>:
>:
>:       NAME
>:      FROM COUNTY
>:      IMMIGRATION PERIOD
>:      LIST #
>:      LIST YEAR
>:
>:
>:
>:       Gotshall, Frederick
>:      Philadelphia
>:      1700-1718
>:      4
>:      1738-39
>:
>:      VanderHeggen, Gaebshalek (son of Goetshalek Jacob)
>:      Philadelphia
>:      Before 1683
>:      1
>:      1708
>:
>:       VanderHeggen, Goetshalek Jacob
>:      Philadelphia
>:      Before 1683
>:      1
>:      1708
>:
>:
>:
>:
>
>
>
>
>  
>


From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
Subject: Re: illiterate ancesters
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:01:57 -0700

Has anyone considered the fact that our ancestors were German and may
not have spoken or written English, but could have been well versed in
German?  Even some of the alphabet was different.
I don't believe it is a 'given' that they were illiterate just because
they used a mark to sign documents.
Frederich Godtshall signed his own Last Will and Testament in 1748.
It is unsteady such as any aged and sick person would sign.

I am asking Bob Gudgel to add this signature to the photo album.
Vivian Gudgell




From: "Jennette A. Gudgel" 
To: "Vivian Gudgell" ,
Subject: Re: illiterate ancesters
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:31:07 -0500

Excellent point Vivian,  
Also, remember that schooling was often not readily
available.  I hadn't considered the fact that Old Andrew
may have been quite literate in German.  If, indeed, he was
Minnonite, he would probably have had his church/education
 in German.
-jennette




Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 22:41:21 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: Vivian Gudgell 

All,
If Frederick or Andrew could write in German, then they would have 
signed their names to the documents even if in the German script. So I 
think they were indeed illiterate, don't you think?
Dianne G-H

Vivian Gudgell wrote:

>Has anyone considered the fact that our ancestors were German and may
>not have spoken or written English, but could have been well versed in
>German?  Even some of the alphabet was different.
>I don't believe it is a 'given' that they were illiterate just because
>they used a mark to sign documents.
>Frederich Godtshall signed his own Last Will and Testament in 1748.
>It is unsteady such as any aged and sick person would sign.
>
>I am asking Bob Gudgel to add this signature to the photo album.
>Vivian Gudgell
>




From: "Stephen Gudgel" <932762318@terra.es>
To: , "Vivian Gudgell" 
Subject: Re: illiterate ancesters
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:40:37 +0200

Hi Everyone,

I'll answer this one and include comments from the others.  Thank you Vivian
for the signature.  Gottshall is certainly easier to pick out than the first
name.  I think this signature might give us our answer.  It looks as if it
says Fredrish (??)Gottshall.  In any case, it doesn't look like Frederick,
or Friedrich.  My guess is that somebody taught him to write his name.  I
agree with Dianne that if they could write in German, the signature would be
the signature.  Very few letters were different in old English script and
old German script.  If you look at the Declaration of Independence, they
write in a similar way to what we see here, but I think someone who didn't
know how to spell Friedrich's name taught him to write what they heard.  If
he had known how to spell it, at least the first name would have been
Friedrich, almost surely, unless he had decided to anglicize his name, but
even then it doesn't look like Frederick either.  It seems to end in the
same letter (h) as the h in Gottshall.

Of course, he could have been literate, anything is possible, but
historically, I would say that would be the exception, not the rule.  The
"founding fathers" could read and write, but they were from high class
families.  Working class people, which at that time would mostly mean
farmers, blacksmiths, etc. were usually not educated.  They started to work
very young.  It was common to learn to write your name, no doubt, but a lot
of people couldn't read.  Schooling was pretty much for the elite and surely
came to the cities before it came to the country.  Anyway, I'll try to find
more on that statistically when I get a minute.  I've met Europeans whose
grandparents didn't know how to read and write and I know that when I was a
child there were still quite a few people who couldn't, so in the 1700s
literacy must have been much, much lower.

I think it is quite likely that one of the main reasons the name has so many
variations today is that our early ancestors in the US didn't know how to
read or write, in any language, or spell their names.  They probably had
great portions of the Bible memorized  and got a pastor or someone else to
write family information in their Bibles for them.

Stephen




From: aap109@webtv.net
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 06:45:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Signatures

The reference , Pennsylvania Dutch, is in most cases an error of verbal
misunderstanding as passed down through the years in families - mine
included.  Originally it was Pennsylvania Deutsch.  Over the years ,
when the  German term Deutsch  (which means 'German') was no longer
understood, it changed to Pennsylvania Dutch.  My Shaner family was
always referred to as    'those dirty Dutch' (I don't know why), but
they were actually German.   

I personally do not think the spelling of the name will be a problem in
finding Frederich  in Germany.  It will be finding him - period.  If a
Frederich with any last name resembling Gottshall is found, it will be
worth investigating.  The problem with the Mennonite names will cause
the most trouble.  It is too lengthy for me to go into. Plus I do not
full understand it.  But  early on they used first names of one
generation for last names of the next or vice-versa.

Ardath Potts



Stephen

I know, you scientific researchers will choke, but sometimes
hear-say does help.
As a child, my father always said that our name was originally
Gottschalk and that we were "Pennsylvania Dutch".  Our family
comes out of the Andrew/William/John Franklin line -- Gibson
County, Indiana.  Dad would have gotten that info. from his
father who grew up in Hazelton, Givson Co.

It doesn't answer any questions, but at least, it sheds light on
what the family -- 3rd and 4th generation "thought" the facts
were.
-jennette





Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 06:03:05 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
To: ralphj@eskimo.com
Subject: check txt or html

This story is one of a number of papers written by Opal Gudgel who was the
first in  the Gudgel's around Chowchilla to dig into Gudgel
Genealogy.  He gives me some  un-deserved tribute but because others are also 
included in his comments I will archive it on my web page 
http://www.eskimo.com/~ralphj/bobsweb_html/dgudgel.html.

I want to add some of his other coments from his other papers but at my 5 wpm it 
will take a while.  I have to retype it into the computer as my scanner makes so 
many mistakes in trying to read it.

The subject of Andrew's literacy comes up all the time. It is assumed  that 
Andrew was some illiterate peaseant.  But he was politiclly active and a land 
owner. To assume that he could not read or write may not be correct. I think 
that because he was so involved in the activities he was that he just might have 
learned to read and write too.





Doyal Gudgel; Family Historian.
By Opal Gudgel
1981
Before putting my typewriter away I wish to attempt writing an article
long overdue.  In a manner of speaking... I'm going to tie together some
loose strings.

As a child and young man none of my family knew much about who/what we
were and I know many of us hungered for information of relatives in
distant places, ancestors departed. I never saw any of my grandparents
and only a very few cousins on either side of the family.  Our world was
very small, often limited to the south side of  Sandy Creek. (Oklahoma)
It was in 1934 the year our family got started farming cotton at  El
Nido, California that papa got a letter for some lawyer who was acting
as the administrator settling the estate of his grandfather Henry
Gudgel, who had died in the civil war and all the heirs was being
contacted to sign papers that would quite the title to land being sold,
settling an estate.  Papa got $35 as his share, I recall the amount
because it was enough to pay for a Jersey cow that would provide our
family with milk we once had such an abundance in Oklahoma.  Mama wrote
the administrator, asking him for some other Gudgel's names and address,
he obliged. That was the beginning of Mamas correspondence to Gudgel,
and other relatives, all throughout Illinois and Indiana, seeking
information, historical or current, about places/events/relatives.  She
did this nine years, as mention has been previously made, then gave all
this accumulation to me to piece together into some form of  readable
manuscript.  This was a crude and laborious method but we knew no other
way.  Possibly that was best method at that time.  But now our
government has taken photos of legal documents census records,
marriages, deaths and marriages from all states and installed libraries
of these microfilmed papers in most principal cities so they are
available without going back to the place where they event occurred to
find records.  Los Angeles Possibly San Francisco and Seattle and other
cities are centers where this is available on the Pacific Coast. It is
said Salt Lake City, Utah has the most complete set of records.

About 15 years ago Doyal Gudgel, Seattle became interested in gathering
family records, Seattle greatly supplied his wishes, as time progresses
these centers increase the accumulation of historical material and Doyal
finds more use for them. Before these centers were set up he
corresponded distant states and even countries for information.  This
courtesy of supplying such information is for a nominal fee but is is
slow and the large amount of historical correspondence and documents has
demanded time, patience and money.

Doyal's daughter Dianne Gudgel-Holmes of Anchorage Alaska is now helping
out.  Dianne is a gifted writer who we hope she applies this toward
putting the worthwhile information into something the average person can
understand where it can be made available to the entire family.  No
doubt Doyal  has enough information to fill a book.

Attached to these articles are 2 pages from Historical Sketches of
Pioneer Indiana Families, much of which is on our own lineage, also,
some is of no direct value because it deals with distant cousins and no
one can find time and information to keep track of and you can get lost
trying to keep straight.  With so much  you need to know to be informed
on your own lineage I suggest you just glimpse over it but try to
understand that part about your own forefathers.  I have drawn lines
through the parts relative to distant cousins.  In some cases the extra
information is nice to know.  You may remember Bruce Gudgel from
Tennessee who who was so anxious to establish his relationship with t he
Gudgel family but he could go now further back than his grandfather
Morton Gudgel.  You may find this name here and know where Bruce could
be established in the family.  This information has only become
available recently.

I wanted to call you attention to Doyal and how much he is appreciated
for all he has done.  They say only historian of each generation is the
historian.  our family boasts Doyal Gudgel.

Signed

Opal Gudgel







From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
Subject: RE: Emailing: Sutterlin link
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 07:47:43 -0700

Hi all


: ...maybe we should learn to read and write German! :)
:
: This is a very good web site. You should check it out. And then
compare the squiggles of old Frederich's signature with the 'e's and
'r's and 'c's and 's's, also 'h's.  Let us know what you think.
:
: Steve .you could be right about them not being literate.  Not many
people
: knew how to read and write in the 1700's.  They still had to use
quill
: pens to write with; the steel pen point had not been invented yet.
:
: Vivian
:





Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:38:48 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
Subject: Re: Hnery G's Old records via Opal Gudgel

All,
I had not understood that Opal Gudgel had information on Henry Gudgel's 
estate. While Opal didn't understand how much we want that accessory 
information today about distant cousins, I hope that information is 
still around. I don't think I have ever seen it.

It would be best to trace down the original estate papers that 
distributed Henry's property. Has anyone done that before?

I still vote that Old Andrew was not literate. Lots of people owned land 
and that didn't require literacy. He was 'politically active' only 
because he got arrested for rioting against  having the PA area where he 
lived placed into PA rather than Virginia (or a no-man's land) because 
it would have meant more taxes. One doesn't have to be literate to get 
arrested or voice opinions about taxes.
Dianne G-H





Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:41:32 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
Subject: Black Dutch

Ardath,
I am sure you are correct on this "dutch" really referring to Deutsch. I 
recall some great aunts saying our Gudgel family was Black Dutch. I 
never knew what they meant, but of course it makes sense now. But why 
the term 'Black?" Anyone have ideas?

Dianne G-H





Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:56:48 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
To: dianne@corecom.net
Subject: Re: Hnery G's Old records via Opal Gudgel

So far all I have seen is this reference to Henry T.  Henry was from 
Athens so there is where you should look.  If that is the county seat. 
It may be Springfield though. .  But as far as Henry's descendants are 
concerned that is a very good place to search.

Doyal
 
Dianne Holmes wrote:

> All,
> I had not understood that Opal Gudgel had information on Henry 
> Gudgel's estate. While Opal didn't understand how much we want that 
> accessory information today about distant cousins, I hope that 
> information is still around. I don't think I have ever seen it.

          


From: "Stephen Gudgel" <932762318@terra.es>
To: , 
Subject: Re: Black Dutch
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 22:33:33 +0200

It's a wild guess, but could it be Platt Deutsch, low German?  I could see
how that term might have gotten mispronounced as time went on.

Steve








From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: Old Notes- We may be on to something!
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 18:00:30 -0400

Hi Folks-

I have been reading and pondering some of the information lately =
concerning our Old Andrew.  I remember several conversations I had with =
Dr. Jim Pope years ago.
Anytime I had the chance to meet with or talk to him I always jotted =
down notes later so that I wouldn't forget.  I still have a couple of =
tapes I made when we got into some deep discussions about old Andrew and =
the family.  Jim was an avid and thorough researcher and I have learned =
he was usually right about things or at least going in the right =
direction.  I want to share 2 sheets of notes I made about Andrew- one =
from Jim and one from Glenn Landis of PA (another researcher I met up =
with years ago.  Glenn has ties to the GOTTSCHALK's early on in PA).

I am not sure about a couple of items he mentioned but at least it gives =
us something to go on and a direction.  BTW, Jim had a great sense of =
humor .

January 28, 1996-Conversation with Jim Pope:

Frederick and Andrew GOTTSCHALK came from the Cleave area of Germany =
(spelled with a "K" in Germany-KLEAVE) according to history.  They were =
Mennonites-2=20
groups of Mennonites:
(1)Mennonites and (2) Dissenters. =20

2 main Lutheran Groups and neither seemed to have kept good church =
records.  Beleive they came to the U.S. at Baltimore as no oath was =
needed there.  Could be wrong.  There is a Lutheran College at the =
University of St. Louis at Concordia.

Beleives Andrew went to a Lutheran group to get married.  After Andrew's =
1st wife died he thinks he went to Chester Co., PA.    Frederick's Will =
clearly states his son Andrew-however, Frederick could have had a =
brother naled Andrew.  Andrew's Sr's. children: daughter married Henry =
Myers-went to Philadelphia.  Pannkuch's stayed in PA.

Andrew's Sr. questionable children:

Allen-still don't think he is a son.  Believe he is the son of a =
different Andrew.

Daniel-almost sure he is a son.  He appears to be oldest son of second =
wife, Barbara.  Came to KY with Andrew for 4 years then back to Fayette =
Co., PA till about (1817?).  His wife's family had died so they went to =
Madison, IN.

Isaac- is a son of ANdrew' Sr. Appears to be youngest boy of second =
wife, Barbara.  Was in Shelby Co., KY and left.  Came back and married =
Gabriel WOODFIELD's daughter. (one of Andrew's daughter's had amarried a =
brother to this girl- Isaac may have married this girl to "feather his =
nest" as they owned a lot of land in Shelby Co.).
Isaac stayed about 10 years and then went to Indiana where his father =
was. This land in Shelby Co., KY had something to do with a deed between =
Isaac and Squire Boone, Jr.

Betsy Paul Payne-third wife of old Andrew.  Paul's were in Woodford Co., =
KY and a;so Fayette Co., PA.  Her family could have come from either =
state.

Andrew, Sr. was in Fayette Co., PA during the Revolutionary War.  Can't =
prove he fought and he probably didn't but Kim things he may have =
furnished supplies, etc. to the soldiers.

*************************************************************************=
*************************************************************************=
**************************************
January 8, 1996  Email from Glenn Landis

Hi Linda-
Your timing is excellent.  Today is my regular day to visit my "home =
library" and I was thinking about your Frederick GOTTSHALL, I was =
bothered by the fact that there may have been an early GOTTSHALL family =
in my home township that I had not heard about and to be sure, there =
was.  He lived on the Cowpath Road, next to Indian Creek.  This is a =
farm that I visited quite often, the farm of Jacob Loux, as a boy.

I have a citation that he took the oath of citizenship in the 1738-1739 =
period and did not ask to be exempt from the oath.  Quakers and =
Mennonites believed that taking oaths violated scriptural directives and =
were exempt.  They "affirmed" their testimony or word.

I also found that he owned 12 acres and a pond in Bedminster Township, =
Bucks Co., and left that property to his wife Mary Anne and in 1749 she =
bought a grist mill from her brother-in-law, Andrew, which wa sold a =
month later to John TROUT.

He also had a daughter who married Yost PANNEKUK of Franconia and =
another who married Christian ALLEBACH, who winds up in Chester Co.

He evidently was rather prosperous.  HIs estate inventory is reproduced =
in "History of Souderton", by Henry S. Landes.  He says Frederick made =
his Will in 1748, but he does not say where it was filed.  If it waas =
filed in Franconia, it would be in the Philadelphia Archives because =
Montgomery Co. was not incorporated until 1872.

If it was filed in Tohicken, Bedminster Township, that is in Bucks Co, =
and then it would be in the Bucks Co. archives in Doylestown.  The =
Tohickoen Creek church is in northern Bucks Co.  I don't have the =
address of the Bucks Co. archives but you could get it from the Bucks =
Co. Historical Society. 84 S. Pine St., Doylestown, PA  18901.  Phone: =
(215)345-0210.  The area code may have changed recently.

                                                                         =
                                                   Glenn

*************************************************************************=
*************************************************************************=
*************************************

So Frederick did have a brother, Andrew.  I always thought it was a =
possiblity.  Glenn sent me copies from  the History of Souderton that he =
mentioned.  And we know now that Frederick's Will was filed in =
Philadelphia Co., PA.  I am going to a meeting npw at our local =
Historical Society and will check back later.  So you guys study this =
and let us know your thoughts. =20
TTYL,
Linda






From: "Stephen Gudgel" <932762318@terra.es>
To: "arleigh birchler" 
Subject: Re: Black Dutch
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 02:51:17 +0200

Yes,

You're right about the German meaning of those terms.  It was geographical
then.  Later it became common, also, to use Hochdeutsch to refer to standard
German being taught in schools and used in the media.  And the Deutsch -
Dutch thing is common confusion.  My students here have a terrible time with
that.  They know Deutschland is the German word for Germany and Deutsch the
language, so when they hear Dutch, in English, they assume that means
German, a logical mistake.  People also confuse Switzerland and Sweden,
Vienna and Venice, Arabs and Iranians, etc.  And look how many people in the
US call the Mexicans Spanish!

Ignorance is always a big factor and it really slows down research because
we have to take it into account and check things many times, rather than
just go on our first impressions or the first information we find.

Stephen





From: "arleigh birchler" 
Subject: My stab at history
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:52:23 -0500

Gudgels;

The following is not academic history.  I have pieced it together from a lot 
of books, and have place Andrew Gudshall into the picture.  This is based on 
bits an pieces that I have heard from many sources, none of which I could 
provide documentation for.  It's from a larger doucument in which I am 
trying to tell the history of my families in the context of their time, and 
so it does not include a lot of maybe's, or might-have-beens, but just tries 
to tell the story.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

One step forward, two steps back.  William Penn was a Quaker.  He called his 
colony New Wales, and made it a safe-haven for pacifists and religious 
dissenters.  Among these were the Mennonites who settled in Bucks County.  
Frederick Gotshall (pronounced Gudgel) came from the Palatines in the early 
eighteenth century.  His son, Andrew Gudshall, moved to western 
Pennsylvania.  There was, however, a small hitch.  King James had given 
North America to the settlers at Jamestown.  They named themselves for Queen 
Elizabeth, who became a virgin on the day of her coronation.  King Charles, 
however, gave William Penn a sizeable chunk of northern Virginia.  Charles 
was careful to define the boundaries:  the Delaware River on the east, 
certain latitudes to the north and south, and five degrees longitude to the 
west of the Delaware.  Aye, there?s the rub!  He forgot to say what point on 
the Delaware.

The folks of Pennsylvania, as it was by then called, said that he obviously 
meant the furthest west point on the Delaware.  The folks in the Old 
Dominion, who were watching their continent sized colony rapidly shrink, 
insisted that King Charles meant the furthest east point on the Delaware, 
which would make the boundary Laurel Hill.  Andrew Gudshall, and his 
neighbors, not being ones to miss a good thing, declared that they did not 
belong to any colony, and, therefore, did not have to pay taxes to anyone.  
There was another small problem.  Andrew had named his farm Peaceable.  
Mennonites, Quakers, Tunkers, and their religious kin, did not believe in 
swearing, wearing uniforms, or shooting muskets at other human beings.

This did not set well with the "Patriots."  As far as they were concerned, 
if you are not with us, you are against us.  The religious pacifists felt 
the sting of colonial "justice."  An uneasy compromise was reached.  The 
pacifists would "affirm" their allegiance to the Continental Congress, 
supply food from their ample barns, livestock, wagons, and anything else the 
Continental Army might want.  That only left the problem of those pesky 
"rebels" west of Laurel Hill.  Pennsylvania and Virginia both appointed 
Sheriffs for the region.  Both Sheriffs arrested anyone who would not pay 
tax to their particular colony.  And so it came to pass that the 
Commonwealth of Virginia issued an arrest warrant for Andrew Gudshall of 
Pittsburgh.  To resolve the boundary dispute, two prominent astronomers, 
Dixon and Mason, were summoned from London.  After several years, and a 
minor disagreement between the Crown and the colonists, they established a 
line that would bring lasting peace to North and South, Pennsylvania and 
Virginia.




Arleigh Birchler
Musick/Porter Fan Club
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MusickPorter/
1718 Fisher St #2
Madison  WI   53713
(608)251-4437




From: "Stephen Gudgel" <932762318@terra.es>
To: "arleigh birchler" 
Subject: Re: Black Dutch
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 02:54:16 +0200

Oops,
I forgot Geneva and Genova (Genoa).



From: "Jennette A. Gudgel" 
To: , 
Subject: Re: Black Dutch
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:45:13 -0500

The other side of my family is Irish........
and they often refer to "black Irish".  When I
was in Ireland a few years ago, we were told
that the Spanish had invaded Ireland early in
history......hence the "black Irish" referring to
the dark hair/dark skin and blue eyes.

So it might be a reference to either the physical
appearance or possibly, the area of Germany
they came from.

-jennette
-----Original Message-----
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: gudgel-list@eskimo.com 
Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 11:41 AM
Subject: Black Dutch


>Ardath,
>I am sure you are correct on this "dutch" really referring to Deutsch. I 
>recall some great aunts saying our Gudgel family was Black Dutch. I 
>never knew what they meant, but of course it makes sense now. But why 
>the term 'Black?" Anyone have ideas?
>
>Dianne G-H
>
>

From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
Subject: RE: Black Dutch
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:00:51 -0700

Hi all,
If you key in 'black dutch' in Google you will get a good site the
first one on the list.
Vivian





Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:19:07 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: arleigh birchler 
Subject: Re: My stab at history

Thanks for this humorous and condensed family history. We might have to 
add now, however, that Old Andrew could have been a brother to Frederick 
Gotshall given what we have learned recently. Gee, who wants to track 
this other Andrew through the land records of Bucks Co an Phili?
Dianne G-H






Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:19:58 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: Linda Gudgel Finnell 
Subject: Re: Old Notes- We may be on to something!

Linda,
Do you have any idea of Jim Pope's references on the notes below?
Dianne G-H

Linda Gudgel Finnell wrote:

> Hi Folks-
>  
> I have been reading and pondering some of the information lately 
> concerning our Old Andrew.  I remember several conversations I had 





From: "Steve Varvel" 
Subject: 
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 23:26:50 -0400

Hi!

Wow, you step away from your computer for 5 minutes and look what happens...

First of all Steve brought up the German records - if you know where you
want to look, the LDS have a surprising amount of those old German Church
records on microfilm that they will send out to your local Family History
Center for about $3.00. Go to their website at www.familysearch.org and
choose the "Search" tab across the top, then the "Family History Library
Catalog" subheading, then "Place Search". You can search for anyplace you
want, if you have a Mormon church with a Family History Center in town (or
nearby) then your set - since they make your view the microfilms at the
centers.

I've spent some time over the last 2 years scouring the church records of
several Pfalz villages dating back to the early 1600's (and earlier in one
case), all available through the LDS. It would help if you knew someone (or
someone at the center) who knew German since it's pretty difficult, but not
impossible. Most of them are written in such a formulaic way you can
identify where the names are and make sense of it. I was lucky enough to
have a native German who specialized in old German records associated with
the center here in Richmond. We were able to identify my Wurbels/Wirbels
(even there nobody cared about spelling) and trace their genealogy back over
a century in the region just up from the mouth of the Nahe on the Rhine in
Bingen, Gensingen, and Windesheim (Pfalz). Very cool!

OK I just checked the LDS for those Kleve records and they have the Reformed
Church records going back aways. If the Gotshalks were local converts they
may show up in some of these Reformed records, it's probably worth checking
out. Any volunteers?

Here are the Film #s you have to give to the Family History Center people to
order them for you. I think the top two would be interesting....


1. Taufen (baptisms) 1617-1623, 1637, 1665-1746 	FHL INTL Film 174512
2. Heiraten (marriages)1617,1624-1637,1665-1798 Tote (burials)
1636-1637,1749-1798 Taufen 1747-1798 FHL INTL Film 174513
3. Taufen (baptisms) 1723-1777 	FHL INTL Film 490306 Item 4
4. Heiraten (marriages)1755-1823 Toten 1764-1798 	FHL INTL Film 490307
5. Taufen (baptisms) 1778-1862 	FHL INTL Film 490309
6. Heiraten (marriages)1829-1862 	FHL INTL Film 490310


As for that early Mennonite Jacob Gottshalk and his family, I'm convinced
they were related to Frederick, it's just a matter of how far back into
Europe. Jacob's family is said to have been from Kleve, which is on the
border between the Netherlands and Germany (it's now in Germany, but has
been both part of the Netherlands and part of the historic Pfalz). Some of
these Dutch (at the time) Mennonites were local converts, but many (if not
most) were transplants from Switzerland who had escaped persecution.


It would seem pretty likely that they at least knew of each other here in
PA, especially if Frederick was also a Mennonite. Jacob was a very prominent
early Mennonite pastor, who served first the Germantown and then the
Skippack congregations. He and his sons grew and flourished in Towamencin
twp (just across the Creek from the village of Skippack).

I've been spending alot of time lately looking into these early Mennonites.
The Skippack congregation was the second Mennonite community established
(after Germantown), and served as a hub for German/Swiss/Dutch immigrants
arriving at Philadelphia and embarking west.

Just a couple of miles north up Skippack Creek a satelite congregation of
Mennonites was formed (didn't aquire land for the church until 1738)
composed of the number of Mennonites living in Upper Salford and Franconia
townships.

"Founding of the Salford Mennonite Meeting - presently on Groffs Mill Road,
now Harleysville, a mile north of Lederach :

On Oct 4/5, 1738 Henry Ruth of Salford sold Henry Funk, Dielman Kolb,
Christian Moyer (Myer), Jr, and Abraham Reiff 10 acres bounded by Henry
Rutt, Jacob Clemens, to be used for the new congregation. Henry Funk (a
Mennonite Bishop), Christian Moyer Jr (a Deacon), and Abraham Reiff (a
Deacon) all lived in Franconia township. On Jan 25, 1738/39 the four
trustees named above conveyed the property to the church, represented by 17
members of the congregation: From Salford – Nicholas Holdeman, Christian
Allabaugh, Henry Rutt, Hans Ulrich Berger, Hans Wyerman, Garret Clemens,
Feltus Kratz, Jacob Clements, Johanas Clements, Hans Reiff, and Frederick
Alderffer. From Franconia – Christian Myer, Andrew Swartz, Henry Clemer,
Jacob Hackman, Ulrich Hunsberger, Jacob Landes. The Church prospered, and by
1763 they established a branch at Franconia (then called Indian Fields)."

So, until 1763 Mennonites who lived in Franconia twp (presumably including
Frederick until his death) went (at least officially) to the Salford
Meeting, which was only a few miles south. Further, founding members of this
Salford congregation included a Christian Allbach and Christian Myor(Myers),
probably sons-in-law (or fathers of the sons-in-law) of Frederick!

Wow I love this stuff, I look forward to reading more!

Steve Varvel




From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
Subject: RE: Isaac  and Linda's notes
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 20:49:06 -0700

Hi,
I think The information about Isaac being a son of Andrew Sr. is not
correct in Linda's notes.  I believe Isaac was a son of Daniel and
married two Hormel girls, Nancy and Sarah.
I have a transcription of a Hormel will naming Isaac and the two
daughters as his #1 and #2 wives.
Was there another Isaac who could have been the son of Andrew Sr.?
Vivian






Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 09:13:36 -0700
Subject: BLACK  DUTCH
From: "Wm. E Gudgel" 

Hello Everyone,

	I have done some basic research on the phrase "Black Dutch" (BTW ... The
German word for German is "Deutsche").  There seems to be several ways
the phrase BLACK DUTCH was used.  #1)  A non German would use the phrase
to belittle those of German decent.  Much as we curse someone today.   
One account I read said that the word black may have been slang for
blaggard.  Simply put ... Someone calling our ancestors "Black Dutch" may
have been used as an insult.  #2)  An interesting explanation was that
the phraes "Black Dutch" may have been used to describe Greman's who
originated in the Black Forest Region.  #3)  The phrase "Black Dutch" was
also used to describe Germans who married non Gremans who were dark
complected or with black hair.

Here is an excert from one of the sites I visited.  I hope this helps.

BLACK DUTCH:
Some say that the term "Black Dutch" refers to Sephardie Jews who married
Dutch protestants to escape the Inquisition, many of their descendants
later moving to the Americas, the "black" referring to their dark hair
and complexions; perhaps rarely, German immigrants from the Black Forest
region, e.g., "For the most part, the Black Dutch came after 1740."
Others disagree and say it is doubtful that the Black Dutch were of
Jewish or (Holland) Dutch heritage. 

Others say that no authoritative definition exists for this intriguing
term. There are strong indications that the original "Black Dutch'' were
swarthy complexioned Germans but Anglo-Americans loosely applied the term
to any dark-complexioned American of European descent. Some say the term
was adopted as an attempt to disguise Indian or tri-racial descent. 

By the mid-1800s the term had become an American colloquialism; a
derogative term for anything denoting one's small stature, dark coloring,
working-class status, political sentiments, or anyone of foreign
extraction. It has been used as a derogatory expression labeling German
Union troops in the Civil War.

Another fanciful and widely circulated explanation about the "Black
Dutch'' is that they were Netherlanders of dark complexion who were
descendants of the Spanish who occupied The Netherlands in the late 16th
century and early 17th centuries, and intermarried with the blonde
natives. However, the Dutch government's Central Bureau for Genealogy,
established as a state archive and genealogical organization, is unable
to offer an explanation for the term.

Some genealogists have suggested that the Black Dutch were either an
offshoot of the Melungeons or one of the tri-racial isolate groups in
Appalachia.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------

OTHER OPINIONS ON BLACK IRISH, BLACK DUTCH, BLACK FRENCH: 
Black Irish indicates those who came as immigrants from other places
(generally England) and sometimes their names were noted as such: "Fitz"
as in Fitzwilliam - the English king 'gave' land to those who could hold
it, take it and keep it. The black part was not referring to skin or hair
or even eye color; it was indication of 'blaggard' = black = a negative
connotation 

Black Dutch, Black Irish, and other terms - some will say that these
terms were applied to those persons who were the offspring of local
citizens (women) and shipwrecked sailors from Spain or other countries
where the people have darker skins. Others will say that the term
pertains to a person of a very mean disposition. 

In 1688 the Spanish armada having being defeated by the British or a bad
storm depending on your interpretation, went east and then north. They
made landfall in Ireland and did the usual things conquistadors were
supposed to do: looted, pillaged and raped the local women. The offspring
of their activities in Ireland who have dark hair are 'Black Irish.'
Actor Alec Baldwin is a 'Black Irish,' to name one. Black Dutch I'm not
sure about, maybe related. 

Black Dutch may be synonymous with Pennsylvania Germans. Are they of
German heritage? From the Oxford English Dictionary the phrase
Pennsylvania Dutch is defined as follows: "The descendants of the
original German settlers in Pennsylvania." The people known to the
tourist business as the Pennsylvania Dutch, often falsely depicted in the
travel advertisements with images of a little Holland Dutch girl with
wooden shoes, are not Dutch, but are of German and German speaking
heritage. By far, most were German. But if not specifically German, they
were more likely to be German speaking Swiss or refugee French Huguenots,
rather than Dutch. They are more correctly described as Pennsylvania
Germans. Thus, because of modern commercial distortions of their true
heritage, some beginning genealogists when starting to research the
Pennsylvania Dutch assume the term refers to a group of people who were
natives of Holland. 

How did the misnomer of Pennsylvania Dutch come about? Here are a few of
the theories. 
1. In the 15th and 16th centuries, the English referred to all people of
Germanic heritage as Dutch or Dutchmen regardless of whether they came
from the Netherlands or from lands now known as Germany. If
differentiated, however, they were referred to by the English as the Low
Dutch for the Netherlanders and the High Dutch for the Germans and German
speaking Swiss, referring to the elevation of their native lands.
However, after the United Provinces (the Netherlands) became an
independent state, and competition and even wars developed between
England and the Netherlands, the English language terms for these two
people began to diverge such that by the 17th century the Netherlanders
were referred to as the Dutch and the people from areas now in Germany
where referred to as Germans. Thus, some theorize that the phrase
Pennsylvania Dutch is a linguistic carry over from the earlier, broader
usage of the word Dutch. 

2. The German word for German is "Deutsche". Thus, if a person described
themselves as a Pennsylvania "Deutschman", he meant Pennsylvania German.
Thus, recent generations of English speaking people in the United States,
corrupted the pronunciation and spelling to Pennsylvania "Dutchman". 

3. The Dutch predominantly settled in New Amsterdam (now New York).The
Germans predominantly settled in SE Pennsylvania, in the inland counties
of Berks, Bucks, Lancaster, Lehigh, Northampton, Montgomery, and others.
Some very early Palatine German refugees were settled in New York by the
British. However, most of these eventually migrated overland to
Pennsylvania where William Penn offered religious freedom and better
treatment. The languages sound similar to the untrained ear. Because of
similarities in the sound of the language, some people theorize that the
Pennsylvania Germans were called Pennsylvania Dutch by the English to
differentiate them geographically from the similar sounding New York
Dutch. 

4. Most of the German immigrants sailed to Pennsylvania from Dutch ports,
such as Rotterdam and Amsterdam in Holland, after coming down the Rhine
River from Germany. Thus, English speaking people may have confused them
as being Dutch because the ship lists reported they embarked for the new
world from Dutch ports. Thus, some people may have incorrectly thought
these Palatine Germans and other German speaking people were Dutch. 

5. Dutch Reformed congregations in New York and Holland provided
financial and spiritual assistance to the early German Reformed
congregations in Pennsylvania due to their shared spiritual beliefs.
Dutch ministers, who were also fluent in German, preached to the early PA
German settlers in order to insure the Reformed faith was nurtured and
grew in the early settlements until such time as the German Reformed
Church was solidly established. With the Dutch church heavily involved
with the early settlers, this could have further confused the true
heritage of these early German speaking settlers as viewed by the English
speaking settlers. Whatever the exact reason for the improper
identification of their true heritage, it took root, even among the
descendants of the Pennsylvania Germans themselves. This was aided by the
decline of the use of the German language by these people. It also gained
more acceptance during the two world wars with Germany, when many
Pennsylvania Germans did not discourage the confusion of their true
nationality because of the large public backlash against people of German
sympathy and nationality, which occurred in this country during the wars.


Today the tourist industry promotes the Pennsylvania Dutch & Pennsylvania
Dutch Country as a tourist attraction because of the quaintness of the
people, their architecture, their culture, and their crafts. 

Some Cherokee & Chickasaw Indians are called Black Dutch. 

According to: http://new-jerusalem.com/genealogy/part23.html - a Dutch
revolt against the Spanish monarch began in 1555 and continued until
1609. The nation could not find enough soldiers to defend its empire and
Spain subjected neighboring Portugal and impressed Portuguese men into
Spanish regiments throughout the empire. A new race was created in he
southern part of Holland during the six decades that Spanish and
Portuguese soldiers were stationed there. It produced dark-skinned
children that were the beginning of the "Black Dutch" 

According to: ftp://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/roots-l/messages/97mar/31693 -
for years I have been told by my family member that the term "black
Dutch" were in truth not Dutch at all, but from Germany. They settled in
the area of Pennsylvania in groups together. When asked where they were
from, they said "Deutsche" sounding to us like "Dutch", but actually
meaning "German" in their own language. Because they weren't blonde and
blue eyed but darker, we called them "black Dutch". The Dutch refer to
themselves as "Nederlanders, Dutch or Hollander" and their country as
"Nederland" since Holland is actually a province or state. The Dutch call
Germany "Duitsland". 

Interesting website concerning Black Dutch/Black Irish: 

http://www.hypertext.com/blackirish/ 

http://www.clinch.edu/appalachia/melungeon.melung.htm.

http://www.dvdol.com/~goode/Dutch.htm

http://www.hypertext.com/blkirshcomments.html 

http://new-jerusalem.com/genealogy/part11.html 







Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:50:08 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
Subject: Tintypes

I have been checking over my pictures and want to remind anyone who has 
tintypes  that there is no way to restore tintypes other than a little 
cleaning.   So if you have tintypes that seem to be badly faded it is 
time to have them copied.  Then it can be restored. That is what the 
experts say about tintypes.  A good digital scan done properly is very 
good and will make a good print. But in my experience it easy to go 
wrong here. Make yourself a test print to be sure.

I am creating a web page of Gudgel history  at 
http://www.eskimo.com/~ralphj/bobsweb_html/dgudgel.html This is 
different from what Bob is doing.  I would like pictures of the next 
generation down from William the last son of Andrew.  Of course I can 
also use pictures of like generation from other children of Andrew.  But 
from the next generation there begins to be too many pictures around to 
include all of them.   The sons of William were the Civil War generation 
and I don't think there was an excessive number of those. I especially 
would like Civil War pictures to add to the web page. I would have to 
have the story associated with the picture to make it easy to put up so 
be sure to include your story.

Doyal Gudgel 

-                                          


From: "Stephen Gudgel" <932762318@terra.es>
To: "Wm. E Gudgel" 
Subject: Re: BLACK  DUTCH
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 16:59:48 +0200

Hi Bill,

Just a quick correction for the record.  Deutsch is the word for German, the
noun form, as in the name of the language.   Deutsche is usually an
adjective form and therefore is usually not capitalized.  A German, meaning
a person from that country, is Deutscher.

Steve






Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:04:14 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
Subject: Leoma is 87

Leoma Gudgel Tibbetts is 87 this Saturday





Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:09:43 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: ralphj@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Tintypes

More about tintypes.  Someone who does restorations here in the north 
reported to me--do not remove the lacquer finish on the tintypes and if 
it has been removed, get the proper kind of photo lacquer and redo it. 
The whole image could disintegrate without that top surface. When 
putting the new lacquer on, test it first in a corner of the photo.

A photo lab here who makes negatives of faded tintypes says that the 
contrast can be improved by over-exposing the image by a half stop and 
then over developing the negative. It was suggested to run several trial 
negatives ,each with increasing degrees of overexposure up to 3 f-stops. 
 Why this would work is beyond me as it seems illogical, but they do 
this specialized photo work and have seen the results which makes for a 
very dense negative. Obviously one would have to find a specialized lab 
to do this and they are hard to find except in larger cities.

Lets here back from some of you who have heard of other methods of 
restoring / preserving faded tintypes.
Dianne G-H

Ralph Johnson wrote:

> I have been checking over my pictures and want to remind anyone who 
> has tintypes  that there is no way to restore tintypes other than a 
> little cleaning.   So if you have tintypes that seem to be badly faded 
> it is time to have them copied.  Then it can be restored. That is what 
> the experts say about tintypes.  A good digital scan done properly is 
> very good and will make a good print. But in my experience it easy to 
> go wrong here. Make yourself a test print to be sure.
>
> I am creating a web page of Gudgel history  at 
> http://www.eskimo.com/~ralphj/bobsweb_html/dgudgel.html This is 
> different from what Bob is doing.  I would like pictures of the next 
> generation down from William the last son of Andrew.  Of course I can 
> also use pictures of like generation from other children of Andrew.  
> But from the next generation there begins to be too many pictures 
> around to include all of them.   The sons of William were the Civil 
> War generation and I don't think there was an excessive number of 
> those. I especially would like Civil War pictures to add to the web 
> page. I would have to have the story associated with the picture to 
> make it easy to put up so be sure to include your story.
>
> Doyal Gudgel
> -                                         
>
>
>


Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:46:59 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: "Wm. E Gudgel" 
Subject: Re: BLACK  DUTCH

Thank you VERY much for this excellent run down of all the possibilities 
for the black dutch term. We will likely never know the real reason but 
this is fascinating.   Can you give us the references (or webs) for the 
first few paragraphs/pages that you quoted?

Dianne G-H

Wm. E Gudgel wrote:

>Hello Everyone,
>
>	I have done some basic research on the phrase "Black Dutch" (BTW ... The
>German word for German is "Deutsche").  There seems to be several ways





Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 12:32:08 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
Subject: Re: BLACK  DUTCH

Opal Gudgel used to say we were descended from black dutch but never 
explained what it was.

Doyal Gudgel

Dianne Holmes wrote:

> Thank you VERY much for this excellent run down of all the 
> possibilities for the black dutch term. We will likely never know the 
> real reason but this is fascinating.   Can you give us the references 
> (or webs) for the first few paragraphs/pages that you quoted?
>
> Dianne G-H

                   


From: "nancy miller" 
To: , "gudgel-list" 
Subject: Re: Leoma is 87
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:04:47 -0700

Where was she born and does she have any children?
Nancy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ralph Johnson" 
To: "gudgel-list" 
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 10:04 AM
Subject: Leoma is 87


> Leoma Gudgel Tibbetts is 87 this Saturday
> 
> 



From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
To: "Gudgel-list" 
Cc: "Stephen Gudgel" <932762318@terra.es>
Subject: Re: search for Fredrich Gottshall ancesters
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:09:31 -0700

To all cousins
I found an interesting "clue" in the IGI records.

Friedricus GOTTSCHALDT
born: 14 Nov. 1642 Eibenstock, Zwickau, Sachsen
Death: 29 Aug 1693
Father: Michael GOTTSCHALDT
Mother: Elizabeth HACKEN
Marriages: Marie Regina SCHINDLER

The interesting "clue" is the name of his spouse, "SCHINDLER".
"SCHENDLER" is the name of the partner of Yost PANCAKE who was the
son-in-law of our Frederich GOTTSHALL.

My theory is that our Frederich was named after his grandfather.  It
would be interesting if this Friedricus had a son named Andreas who
had a son named Frederich.  If we are lucky Andreas will have another
son named Andreas  (That would account for the older Andrew who bought
land in 1743)

If our Frederich's father was Andreas, then he named his first son
'Andrew' after his son's grandfather.

Steve, do you think it is worth checking out this Friedericus
Gottschaldt b. 1642 in Eibenstock, Zwickau, Sachsen?






From: "Stephen Gudgel" <932762318@terra.es>
To: "Vivian Gudgell" 
Subject: Re: search for Fredrich Gottshall ancesters
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:10:15 +0200

Hi Vivian and all,

Yes, I certainly do think it is worth checking out.  I think we should go
with any clues that are even remotely related and see where they take us.
And naming a son for a grandfather through several generations is totally
logical.  Too bad they dropped Michael in the tradition, if they did, but
there are most likely other Michael sons.  Thank you.

Steve






Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:38:02 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
Subject: Info needed

Hi everyone

I am looking for some specific information on Henry T Gudgel one son of 
William Gudgel the youngest of old Andrew.  Someone may be able to help 
especially if they are around Springfield Ill or from  there.   Henry 
married Sarah Ann Johnson in Gibson county Indiana according to my 
information, in  1846.  We know nothing of her ancestry. However in 1855 
they moved to Athens Illinois for some reason.  I suspect they moved to 
stay near some relatives which is common to this day. So far we know 
nothing about Sarah. I don't think we even have a picture of her 
although she died in 1899.  So there are probably some around. I have 
learned  something that might be of interest.
Are there anyone with Pearl Brokofsky connection. She is descended from 
Philip Gudgel.  I am in the process of telling the story of Henry T. 
here http://www.eskimo.com/~ralphj/bobsweb_html/henryt.html which 
recounts the fact that Henry T enlisted in the 28th Illinois Volunteers 
in August 1861.  You will learn in the story of Henry T that his Civil 
War career was short as he died in November because of Typhoid fever.  
Something of interest has occurred to me that the Commander of the 28th 
Ill was Col. A. K. Johnson. So as Henry enlisted in the 28th regiment, 
the commander was A K Johnson his wife's maiden name was Johnson so my 
question is was there connection between A K Johnson and  Sarah? Anyone 
else descended from Henry might be interested in this too.   This might 
help us find something out about Sarah Johnson of whom we know nothing. 
  I am going to ask the National Archives for his military, hospital, 
and pension records which might give us some information if there is a 
connection.  This seems to me to be a good lead.

I know that a brother of Henry, Wm Alexander (m Katherine Reeves),  
lived in Athens too.  I have a picture of him and his family 
http://www.eskimo.com/~ralphj/bobsweb_html/wmalexander.jpg  is there 
anyone on the gudgel-list who is descended from Henry or William 
Alexander? They would be more likely to have some pictures of William's 
or Henry's generation. I would like to meet anyone in Illinois who has 
this connection that is on the list. I would like especially to meet 
anyone on the gudgel-list descended from these two  Gudgels wherever 
they are.

Doyal Gudgel.



   


Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:50:57 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
Subject: email

 Hello Cousins

Of someone sends me an email directly please make it plain in the 
subject line it is not spam.  I get a lot of spam and I delete a lot of 
mail in my shell account that is obviously spam so it doesn't download 
into my computer.  I don't know everyone's e-mail address automatically 
so I depend upon what the email is about to decide if I read it or 
delete it. I don't want to accidentally delete a legitimate e-mail from 
a cousin.  So if it looks like in the subject line you are  trying to 
sell me something or send pornography I would just delete the email to 
avoid bothering with it.  Generally it is pretty easy to determine if an 
email is spam or not but sometimes not quite so easy. 

Have a nice day

Doyal Gudgel

               


From: "Terri Montigny" 
Subject: I'm back
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 17:22:47 -0400


Hi everyone.  It has been awhile.  I apologize if you have been getting
my "out of the office messages" or the "spam blocker" messages.  I
managed to squirrel away some time and me and a couple girlfriends left
the men at home and took off to Europe.  We managed to squeeze in 6 days
in London, 4 in Paris, 4 in Venice, 3 in Rome, 4 in Capri and then 1
more in Rome before flying home.  We were there for 3 weeks.  Italy was
my favorite.  I love Venice - it has always been one of my favorite
places.  Rome was really great this time because we hire a tour guide to
show us all the ruins.  She just got her masters in Latin and Ancient
History.  She is from North Carolina but has lived in Rome for 7 years
and has been giving tours for 5.  She was excellent.  I learned more in
two days then I ever did in school.  I got home Wednesday and my luggage
a couple days later.  I'm trying to catch up on everything before
returning to work on Monday.  
 
You guys have been really busy!  
 
Terri Montigny
Daniel's Line
 
 
Focus and Direction creates time.
 





Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 09:32:11 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
Subject: Eureka! I found it. 

Hello everyone.

I am happy to announce that I have found a picture of Sarah Ann Johnson. 
Widow of Henry T Gudgel who died in the Civil war. It is not a great 
picture but is a picture.  It is of her and her boys less Thomas 
Jefferson Gudgel my G Grandfather. There is some mistake in my records 
as I have an extra name or two in my genealogy sheet which lists 6 
children none includes Philip.  He would be on a different sheet.  
Someone please help me out so I can correct the mistake.  My sheet lists
Thoma Jeff.   b   10/20/1847
Wm Alexander   b 7.8.50
Missouri Ann   b 7.10.55   she is in the picture  When did she die?
Jacob    b 11.11.57
Henry T   b 1.20.60
Andrew   n 11.14.52

This is from the family sheet of Sarah and Henry T so it would not 
include Philip.  Which is correct. Philip or Phillip?   I had the answer 
somewhere but I sent all that to Linda

A couple people should not be there.  These mistakes can happen when you 
copy GED files into an existing genealogy program.  Then it can get real 
hard to correct.
You  can see her a this link.
 http://www.eskimo.com/~ralphj/bobsweb_html/sarahannj.jpg

http://www.eskimo.com/~ralphj/bobsweb_html/dgudgel.html

                        


Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:54:20 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
To: ralphj@eskimo.com
Subject: Common Sense


Common Sense

Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend named Common Sense, 
who had been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he 
was, since his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red 
tape. He will be remembered as having cultivated such valued lessons as 
knowing when to come in out of the rain, why the early bird gets the 
worm and that life isn't always fair.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more 
than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies (adults, not kids, are 
in charge). His health began to rapidly deteriorate when 
well-intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports 
of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a 
classmate, teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch, 
and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student only worsened his 
condition!

It declined even further when schools were required to get parental 
consent to administer aspirin to a student but could not inform the 
parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.

Finally, Common sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments 
became contraband, churches became businesses and criminals received 
better treatment than their victims. Common Sense finally gave up the 
ghost after a woman failed to realize that a steaming cup of coffee was 
hot, spilled it in her lap, and was awarded a huge settlement.

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust, his 
wife, Discretion, his daughter, Responsibility, and his son, Reason, He 
is survived by Two Stepbrothers: My Rights and Ima Whiner. Not many 
attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone.

If you still remember him, pass this on. If not you can give him a 
second death.

God gave us two ends. One to sit on and one to think with. Success 
depends on which one you use; heads you win -- tails, you lose.




From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: GUDGELL obit- Natchez, MS--2003
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:13:02 -0400


Can someone tell me who this lady is?

RUBY GUDGELL
Mrs. Ruby GUDGELL, age 85 years. of Natchez, MS, died Sunday, July 20, =
2003 at University Medical Center, Jackson, MS.  Mrs. GUDGELL was born =
May 7, 1918 in Conway, AR, the daughter of Grover Cleveland and Ruby =
Savannah MUNN GRAHAM.  She was a member of the Trinity Episcopal Church. =
 She is preceded in death by her parents and husband, Charles GUDGELL, =
Sr.  Survivors: sons, Charles GUDGELL, Jr., Destrehan. LA and John =
GUDGELL, Natchez, MS; sister, Ruth Wright, Jasper, AL; and three =
grandchildren.  Funeral services will be held Thursday, July 24, 2003 at =
11:00 a.m. from Trinity Espicopal Church with The Very Rev. Zabron A. =
Davis, III and Rev. Paul Stephens officiating.  Burial will follow at =
Greenlawn Memorial Park under the direction of Laird Funeral Home, =
Natchez, MS.

Published in The Times-Picayune on 7/23/2003.

Thanks,=20
Linda





Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 07:00:19 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
Subject: Rare picture of Sarah Ann Johnson and fam.

There are a lot of Gudgels out there descended from Henry T Gudgel who 
died in the unCivil War.  I have uplloaded a recently discovered picture 
of  her and her "Boys" except for Thomas Jefferson.. Anyone descended 
from William Alexander the Brother of Thomas Jefferso G will be 
especially interested.

Others in the picture are

Lou Ann (Louanne ?)
Aunt Ida,
Amos
John,
Charles,
Ben
and Lottie Harris's father. Andrew.
Young boy not related.
Later I will attempt to point out which one is which in detail.

 http://www.eskimo.com/~ralphj/bobsweb_html/henryt.html

Doyal Gudgel

 

From: Gudgeld@aol.com
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:31:30 EDT
Subject: Re: Henry T. Gudgel
To: ralphj@eskimo.com, gudgel-list@eskimo.com

Hi Doyal;

Well, it has taken me a while to get around to responding to your note.  It 
has been pretty hectic around here for the last few months.  We did get time to 
run back to Iowa, Wisconsin and Illinois to do some research on my mothers 
family, but I have not worked on the Gudgel side for some time.

Actually, since I am a descendant of Philip (Francis, Amos, Philip, Sarah), 
son of Sarah Ann JOHNSON GUDGEL, the only part of the Gudgel line I am 
connected with is descendants of Philip's half brothers and sister, the children of 
Henry T. and Sarah Ann 'JOHNSON' GUDGEL.  You asked about the correct spelling 
of Philip Gudgel's first name and I can't help.  I have several documents with 
his signature (homestead records, land sales, etc.) and he spelled it both 
Philip and Phillip in those documents, so take your pick.  The family has always 
used Philip, but that also results in some disagreements.

You mentioned that Henry T. and Sarah moved to Illinois in 1855.  Actually 
they moved sometime between July 08, 1850, when William Alexander was born in 
Gibson County, Indiana and November 14, 1852, when Andrew J. was born in Athens, 
Menard County, Illinois.  Family lore indicates that they moved to follow her 
parents there.  I have spent enormous amounts of time trying to connect Sarah 
Ann 'JOHNSON' GUDGEL to any JOHNSON that was in Gibson or surrounding 
counties in Indiana in 1850 and earlier and that was also in Menard or neighboring 
counties in Illinois after 1850.  I have census records for over 600 JOHNSON's 
that fit that category and have put them in a data base so I can sort them in 
any way I want and I cannot make any connection.  I have also made three trips 
to Gibson County, Indiana and Menard County Illinois over the past four or 
five years and spent a total of about five weeks in those two places and still 
have nothing.  Therefore, I have given up on finding any ancestry on Sarah Ann 
'JOHNSON' GUDGEL until someone else has a brain storm and comes up with some 
other ideas.  I have checked out Col. A. K. JOHNSON very thoroughly and find no 
connection with Sarah Ann.  It is still possible, but if a connection exists I 
have not found it.

Just a bit of information on Henry T. and Sarah Ann.  I have no documentation 
for Henry T's birth, but based on census information, military records, etc., 
it appears he was born in Gibson County, Indiana in 1827.  Sarah's tombstone 
at the Old West Cemetery in Athens, Illinois indicates she was born on 
December 08, 1829, and died on January 07, 1899.  They were married on February 19, 
1846, in Gibson County, Illinois.  Henry T. died on November 17, 1861.  They 
had six children: Thomas Jefferson born October 20, 1847, in Gibson County, 
Indiana; William Alexander born July 08, 1850, in Gibson County, Indiana; Andrew 
J. born November 14, 1852, in Menard County, Illinois; Missouri Ann born July 
10, 1855, in Menard County, Illinois; Jacob M. born November 11, 1857 and Henry 
T. born January 20, 1860.  Sarah Ann 'JOHNSON' GUDGEL then had twin sons born 
out of wedlock  on January 17, 1865 in Menard County, Illinois.  These births 
occurred over three years after the death of Henry T. of Typhoid Fever in 
November of 1861.  After much research, I believe I know the father of Philip, 
but cannot prove it.  Therefore I will not post it here, since the descendants 
of both families still live in Athens, Illinois.

With regard to William Alexander GUDGEL and Mary Kathryn REEVES, they do have 
descendants still living in Athens, Menard County, Illinois.  We have visited 
them several times in the past few years. William and Kathryn had a son named 
Harry GUDGEL (the last of seven children) who married Fannie A. COLE.  Two of 
their children Kathryn GUDGEL CARTER and George GUDGEL, still live in Athens. 
 I have had extensive discussions with both of them, as well as their 
children and grandchildren, and have found nothing that would help solve some of the 
mysteries about Sarah or the father of Philip.  In addition, a brother of 
George and Kathryn, Warren, had tried to solve some of these mysteries and I have 
all his records.  They do not help with our quest.

Enough for now.

Dave Gudgel
In rainy Tucson (the remnants of hurricane Marty are doing their thing here 
at the moment)


In a message dated 9/19/2003 7:39:32 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
ralphj@eskimo.com writes:
I am looking for some specific information on Henry T Gudgel one son of 
William Gudgel the youngest of old Andrew.  Someone may be able to help 
especially if they are around Springfield Ill or from there.   Henry 
married Sarah Ann Johnson in Gibson county Indiana according to my 
information, in  1846.  We know nothing of her ancestry. However in 1855 
they moved to Athens Illinois for some reason.  I suspect they moved to 
stay near some relatives which is common to this day. So far we know 
nothing about Sarah. I don't think we even have a picture of her 
although she died in 1899.  So there are probably some around. I have 
learned  something that might be of interest.
Are there anyone with Pearl Brokofsky connection. She is descended from 
Philip Gudgel.  I am in the process of telling the story of Henry T. 
here http://www.eskimo.com/~ralphj/bobsweb_html/henryt.html which 
recounts the fact that Henry T enlisted in the 28th Illinois Volunteers 
in August 1861.  You will learn in the story of Henry T that his Civil 
War career was short as he died in November because of Typhoid fever.  
Something of interest has occurred to me that the Commander of the 28th 
Ill was Col. A. K. Johnson. So as Henry enlisted in the 28th regiment, 
the commander was A K Johnson his wife's maiden name was Johnson so my 
question is was there connection between A K Johnson and  Sarah? Anyone 
else descended from Henry might be interested in this too.   This might 
help us find something out about Sarah Johnson of whom we know nothing. 
  I am going to ask the National Archives for his military, hospital, 
and pension records which might give us some information if there is a 
connection.  This seems to me to be a good lead.

I know that a brother of Henry, Wm Alexander (m Katherine Reeves),  
lived in Athens too.  I have a picture of him and his family 
http://www.eskimo.com/~ralphj/bobsweb_html/wmalexander.jpg  is there 
anyone on the gudgel-list who is descended from Henry or William 
Alexander? They would be more likely to have some pictures of William's 
or Henry's generation. I would like to meet anyone in Illinois who has 
this connection that is on the list. I would like especially to meet 
anyone on the gudgel-list descended from these two  Gudgels wherever 

Dave Gudgel
Tucson, AZ




From: Gudgeld@aol.com
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:06:59 EDT
Subject: Re: Henry T. Gudgel
To: ralphj@eskimo.com, gudgel-list@eskimo.com

Doyal;

No, Walters farm was not the same as Henry T. and Sarah Ann's farm.  They 
were about a quarter of a mile apart.  The old Gudgel Bridge across the Sangamon 
River on Gudgel Road south of Athens is named after the Gudgel's that lived in 
that immediate vicinity.  Henry T. and Sarah Ann's farm was about a quarter 
of a mile east of the bridge and Walter Harris' farm was about a half a mile 
east of the bridge.  The last time we were there, the old Gudgel farm (Henry and 
Sarah's) was being subdivided for a housing development.  Andrew J. Gudgel 
(son of Henry T. and Sarah Ann) was a large landholder in the area and had 
several tracts of land in the vicinity of the Gudgel and Harris farms.  Walter's 
mother was Lottie Gudgel.  She was the daughter of William Alexander Gudgel and 
sister of Harry Gudgel (Kathryn and George Gudgel's father).  Lottie married 
Otis Harris. 

Dave Gudgel
Tucson, AZ



From: Gudgeld@aol.com
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:59:57 EDT
Subject: Re: Henry T. Gudgel---LOYAL T JOHNSON
To: V.Gudgell@verizon.net, gudgel-list@eskimo.com

Hi Vivian;

My data base only covers Menard and adjoining counties and therefore does not 
get over to Bureau County.  Without Loyal's fathers name, it would be hard to 
locate him.  I did a quick check of the census' for Bureau County and found 
the following for Loyal (aka L.T.) Johnson in 1850 and 1870.  I couldn't find 
him in either 1840 or 1860 for some reason.

1850 Census - Bureau County, town of Bureau, Illinois

Loyal Johnson - age 35 - Male - Farmer - born in NY
Mary Johnson - age 32 - Female - born in Ohio
William Johnson - age 8 - Male - born in Illinois
Dorleski Johnson - age 6 - Female - born in Illinois
Maria - age 1 - Female - born in Illinois


1870 Census - Bureau County, Fairfield, Illinois (P.O. - Yorktown)

L. T. Johnson - age 55 - Male - Farmer - born in NY
Mary Johnson - age 52 - Female - Keeping house - born in Ohio
Elnora Johnson - age 16 - Female - born in Illinois - attending school
Seymore Johnson - age 14 - Male - born in Illinois - attending school
Lamary (sp?) Johnson  - age 11, Male - born in Illinois - attending school 
(Hard to determine spelling of first name.)
William (sp?) Johnson - age 8 - Male - born in Illinois - attending school 
(First name looks like William, but don't know why they would have had another 
william unless the first one died.)
Maria Russell - age 21 - Female - Keeping house - born in Illinois (Probably 
the one year old daughter listed in the 1850 census)
William Russell - age 1 - Male - born in Illinois - attending school

Dave Gudgel
Tucson, AZ



From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
To: , 
Subject: Re: Henry T. Gudgel---LOYAL T JOHNSON
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:38:36 -0700

Thanks David,
Sorry to say, I can't find LOYAL T. JOHNSON before 1850 census either, =
except for a marriage record to Mary Christine Goodheart, 1840 in =
Peoria, Illinois.  We can't find his parents who most likely were in =
Wayne County NY.  There are lots of Johnsons in NY, but which one is his =
father????  I don't know if he came through Indiana on the way to =
Illinois or not. His wife was born in Ohio, but her parents came to =
Illinois before Loyal did.  History books report that he came first to =
Canton, Fulton Co, Illinois and started a boot and tannery business.  I =
can't find him in Canton, either.

The 'WILLIAM' in the 1870 census is WILBUR.  The 'LAMARY' is LUMRY. It =
is his middle name; full name is LOYAL LUMRY JOHNSON.
Thanks anyway
Vivian

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Gudgeld@aol.com=20
  To: V.Gudgell@verizon.net ; gudgel-list@eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 3:59 PM
  Subject: Re: Henry T. Gudgel---LOYAL T JOHNSON


  Hi Vivian;

  My data base only covers Menard and adjoining counties and therefore =
does not get over to Bureau County.  Without Loyal's fathers name, it =
would be hard to locate him.  I did a quick check of the census' for =
Bureau County and found the following for Loyal (aka L.T.) Johnson in =
1850 and 1870.  I couldn't find him in either 1840 or 1860 for some =
reason.

  1850 Census - Bureau County, town of Bureau, Illinois

  Loyal Johnson - age 35 - Male - Farmer - born in NY
  Mary Johnson - age 32 - Female - born in Ohio
  William Johnson - age 8 - Male - born in Illinois
  Dorleski Johnson - age 6 - Female - born in Illinois
  Maria - age 1 - Female - born in Illinois


  1870 Census - Bureau County, Fairfield, Illinois (P.O. - Yorktown)

  L. T. Johnson - age 55 - Male - Farmer - born in NY
  Mary Johnson - age 52 - Female - Keeping house - born in Ohio
  Elnora Johnson - age 16 - Female - born in Illinois - attending school
  Seymore Johnson - age 14 - Male - born in Illinois - attending school
  Lamary (sp?) Johnson  - age 11, Male - born in Illinois - attending =
school (Hard to determine spelling of first name.)
  William (sp?) Johnson - age 8 - Male - born in Illinois - attending =
school (First name looks like William, but don't know why they would =
have had another william unless the first one died.)
  Maria Russell - age 21 - Female - Keeping house - born in Illinois =
(Probably the one year old daughter listed in the 1850 census)
  William Russell - age 1 - Male - born in Illinois - attending school

  Dave Gudgel
  Tucson, AZ




From: Gudgeld@aol.com
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:47:57 EDT
Subject: Re: Henry T. Gudgel
To: dianne@corecom.net, gudgel-list@eskimo.com

Hi Dianne;

The only census that Sarah was in that listed the birth place of her parents 
was the 1880 census.  In that one she listed her Fathers birthplace as Indiana 
and her Mothers as Kentucky.  That has caused me no end of consternation 
because I can find Johnsons that seem to fit the age bracket to be her parents and 
that have female children of the right age, but when I start following them 
through the census' I find that they were not born in the right state.  Of 
course that doesn't prove anything.  The 1880 census could be wrong, but without 
some indication of which of the various Johnson families is the correct one, it 
is like wandering through the wilderness.  Maybe Dan'l Boone could help.

Dave Gudgel
Tucson, AZ






Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:14:13 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
To: Gudgel List , janaumbs@fencingmail.com
Subject: Name confusion

 Dear all

It seems incredible to some that the social conditions in the movie 
"Gangs of New York" could have actually existed but was just the figment 
of the movie producers imagination.  But that was they way they thought 
in those days even though that was just 150 years ago.  The movie was 
well researched. Can things change that much in that comparatively short 
space of time from how we see things in this day and age? 

It makes me wonder how much we should maybe take into consideration the 
times and influence on what was happening to the Gudgel's who couldn't 
seem to know how to spell their name.  Was this confusion just because 
they couldn't spell? Was there something else causing the name to be 
spelled different ways?

I am pretty sure this far fetched but I am putting it out anyway. I am 
going to send this question to an amateur linguistic anthropologist I 
know and see what she thinks too I'll  get her opinion in addition to 
people on the gudgel-list. .   It is probably just a wild hair but I 
think it fun to consider if maybe culture might have had some influence 
on what was happening to our name.  We don't seem to be getting very far 
solving the problem as it is.  I think we should consider alll angles.

Most people can not imagine the culture that existed in that day.  How 
it differed f rom ours.  So I am going to include an excerpt from a book 
by Neil Swanson, who wrote Historical novels, but did extensive research 
on our Colonial history to get an accurate flavor of how it was.
  
 From the "Unconquered" by Neil Swanson.

My great-grandmother was a slave. She was white. She was an English 
girl. Yet she was exhibited and sold at auction, not by barbarous 
Algerian but by the brutal 1aws of her own people. For it was even 
possible, in those days, for a man who had grown weary of his wife to 
put a rope around her neck, lead her to a public market, and there sell 
her.
This girl was a virgin. She was accused of murder, tried, found guilty, 
sentenced to the gallows-and then given the harsh choice of death by 
hanging or of slavery.  (In a court in London) To live was to hope. She 
chose life, and so became the property of a man who lusted for her, 
though he had a wife.
She was young when these things happened-only seventeen-and it is said 
that she was very lovely. I tell you of her so that you may see how far 
a journey we have come from the day when, in America, a white girl could 
be sold and bought as you would sell or buy a cow, a horse, a dog-could 
be lawfully and publicly stripped naked, whipped, shamed, and degraded.

-being part of a remarkable letter concerning the Holdens of Virginia, 
written by one of their descendants in the frontier village of St. 
Anthony in Minnesota, at the great falls of the Mississippi, in the 
summer of 1862 -one hundred years after the beginning of this story.
End quote

So there you have it.  If nothing comes of it at least hopefully someone 
will have learned a little history.


Doyal Gudgel



-- 
Take a look at my Internet garage sale.
http://www.eskimo.com/~ralphj/




From: Gudgeld@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:23:08 EDT
Subject: Re: Henry T. Gudgel
To: dianne@corecom.net, gudgel-list@eskimo.com

Hi Dianne;

Tracking all the Johnsons through the census was a last resort.  I consulted 
with two professional genealogy researchers on my dead end in trying to locate 
Sarah's parents and how best to proceed.  The census was what we came up 
with.  I went through all the census' for Gibson County, Indiana and adjoining 
counties for 1820, 1830, 1840 and 1850 and gathered all the information for any 
Johnson in those counties.  I then did the same for 1850 1860 and some of 1870 
for Menard County, Illinois and adjoining counties.  I spent about a month 
doing this at the Family History Center in Mesa, Arizona and the Allen County 
Public Library in Ft. Wayne, Indiana, with some data coming from census CD's that 
I was able to obtain.  After entering all the data on these people into a 
data base it is easy to manipulate and sort.  As a result I can sort on surname, 
given name, age of head of household, age of children age of spouse, residence 
location, birth place, etc.  It is a wonderful tool but accomplished nothing 
but frustration.

Data that I am sure of on Sarah is pretty much limited to her marriage date 
to Henry T.  That is confirmed in marriage records from Gibson County, a 
marriage certificate and an affidavit from Gibson County that was provided for her 
pension application as February 19, 1846.  

In her pension applications (two of them) she meticulously included all the 
children of Sarah and Henry T. and their birth dates.  She was also equally 
careful to not include Philip as a child of Henry T.  There also are affidavits 
from doctors and midwives attesting to their presence at the birth of some of 
the children.  

I have eight different records giving her age.  Five of those indicate her 
birth year would be 1829 or 1830, depending on the time of year the data were 
collected.  However, on the 1850 census she said she was 25 (ca 1825 birth year) 
and the 1860 census she said she was 29 and in 1880, 49 (ca 1831 birth year).

One caveat in all of this.  There was another Sarah Ann JOHNSON born in 
Gibson County, Indiana at about the same time.  She was born in 1825 and married a 
Daniel McFetters.  Daniel became quite prominent in Gibson County and there is 
a quite a bit of information on him and Sarah Ann 'JOHNSON' McFETTERS.  I 
have been through all of it and can trace this Sarah Ann from birth to death, all 
in Gibson County.  I continue to receive information from people saying they 
have found our Sarah and her parents.  While I appreciate their efforts, I am 
sure this is not our Sarah.

In a message dated 9/25/2003 7:36:36 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
dianne@corecom.net writes:
Interesting that you could follow the Johnson families through the census 
like you did. That is good research even if it didn't prove much.

I wonder why the civil war widow's pension records don't reveal more info. I 
thought the widow had to put down all sorts of things. Does anyone have her 
records?

Dave Gudgel
Tucson, AZ





From: "arleigh birchler" 
To: ralphj@eskimo.com
Cc: BlackCSA@yahoogroups.com, gudgel-list@eskimo.com, MO-CW-L@rootsweb.com,
        MusickPorter@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Name confusion
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:56:40 -0500

Doyal;

Thanks.  Slavery interests me.  I have spent a lifetime "helping" people.  I 
remember one incident on the streets of Haight-Ashbury when a young man in a 
crisis yelled at me:  "Where your ancestors slaves for 300 years?"  It was 
one of the few incidents where I allowed good sense to get in the way of 
truth.  I did not say anything, although I knew full well that my ancestors 
had been slaves for well over a mere three centuries.



Arleigh Birchler
Musick/Porter Fan Club
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MusickPorter/
1718 Fisher St #2
Madison  WI   53713
(608)251-4437








Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:16:51 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
To: arleigh birchler 
CC: BlackCSA@yahoogroups.com, gudgel-list@eskimo.com, MO-CW-L@rootsweb.com,
        MusickPorter@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Name confusion

Dear Arleigh

You may be interested in a history of white slavery in America by 
Michael Hoffman II He wrote a book "They were white and they were  
slaves."  You have to remember that for 150 years the colonies were a 
dumping ground for the poor whites of England.  Population control 
actually. Remember Robert Louis Stevenson's "Kidnapped"?  Saddam had 
nothing on the English of that day and age.  When you could hang someone 
for just stealing a loaf of bread. I highly recommend the book by 
Hoffman.  Or  I would be happy to loan you my copy.  Or contact him at 
hoffman@hoffman-info.com

arleigh birchler wrote:

> Doyal;
>
> Thanks.  Slavery interests me.  I have spent a lifetime "helping" 
> people.  I remember one incident on the streets of Haight-Ashbury when 
> a young man in a crisis yelled at me:  "Where your ancestors slaves 
> for 300 years?"  It was one of the few incidents where I allowed good 
> sense to get in the way of truth.  I did not say anything, although I 
> knew full well that my ancestors had been slaves for well over a mere 
> three centuries.
>
>
>
> Arleigh Birchler
> Musick/Porter Fan Club
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MusickPorter/
> 1718 Fisher St #2
> Madison  WI   53713
> (608)251-4437
>


From: "arleigh birchler" 
To: musickfamily@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Appalachian_Heritage@yahoogroups.com, gudgel-list@eskimo.com,
        HINSHAW-L@rootsweb.com, MusickPorter@yahoogroups.com
Subject: reality testing 101
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:36:06 -0500

Cassie and Nancy;

I have a hard time with reality.  I'm not sure I REALLY believe anything I 
read in history books, newspapers, or court records.  (I think it started 
when I began to read about myself in papers, and see me on TV.)  There is, 
however, a spectrum of trust.  I am willing to re-tell the story about John 
Musick and Henry Johnson visiting the judge to get a marriage license for 
John and Mary.  It is in a number of Illinois history books.  I know, 
however, that Henry told the story many decades later.  It was in a setting 
where old men were trying to come-up with good stories to tell each other.

Is it true?  I don't know.  Is it a good story?  Definitely.  Should it be 
passed on?  I think so.

So, what am I getting at?  I like for books tell me everything that is even 
suspected, but that let me know what kind of evidence the information is 
based on.  Then I can make-up my own mind.  So, if a new book is being 
written, I would like to request that it includes as much information as 
possible, along with an assessment of the reliability.  I'm glad I read that 
William Hinshaw told his friends that he had run from trouble as long as he 
intended to, and now he was ready to fight for human rights;  Even if it is 
only "family lore", and even if I think he should have stuck to his Quaker 
teachings.

"I now know what military fame is.  It is to die on the field of battle and 
have your name misspelled in the newspaper."      Cump Sherman


Arleigh Birchler
Musick/Porter Fan Club
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MusickPorter/
1718 Fisher St #2
Madison  WI   53713
(608)251-4437





Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:35:05 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
To: arleigh birchler 
Subject: Re: reality testing 101

Well I will tell you one thing.  I don't believe anything the government 
says until it is proven. Then there was this big lie about Henry T 
Gudgel being killed at Shiloh.  Most of all though if some one stands to 
make money on it better take it with a grain of salt.

Doyal G

arleigh birchler wrote:

> Cassie and Nancy;
>
> I have a hard time with reality.  I'm not sure I REALLY believe 



From: "Stephen Gudgel" <932762318@terra.es>
Subject: Some links
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 21:18:01 +0200

Hi Everybody,

I found a couple of interesting links about the area we are supposed to =
have come from: =20
www.zekes.com/~dspidell/famresearch/palatine.html

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/de-pf_hi.html



At least they give us some historical background and interesting info on =
the area.

Stephen




Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:36:22 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
Subject: Gudgel in the news

 From a Texas newspaper.  The important part.

On the Panthers ensuing drive, the Tigers' Andrew Carlson intercepted a 
Nick Williams' pass at midfield. Wortham bulled over from the 2-yard 
line, completing the scoring drive. A Wortham-to-Luke Gudgel pass for 
the 2-point conversion and the Tigers had a 14-6 lead.



Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:15:32 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: ralphj@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Gudgel in the news

What is the date and name of the paper?
Dianne G-H

Ralph Johnson wrote:

> From a Texas newspaper.  The important part.
>
> On the Panthers ensuing drive, the Tigers' Andrew Carlson intercepted 
> a Nick Williams' pass at midfield. Wortham bulled over from the 2-yard 
> line, completing the scoring drive. A Wortham-to-Luke Gudgel pass for 
> the 2-point conversion and the Tigers had a 14-6 lead.
>





From: Bob Gudgel 
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 18:45:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re. Gudgel in the news...


I think it was from:

Sherman Denison Herald Democrat, TX 

try:      http://66.220.130.210/cgi-bin/LiveIQue.acgi$rec=108507?sports

bob



From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
Subject: A. C. Gudgell photo
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 23:13:13 -0700

Hi all,
On this web page is an article about electric power and A. Charles
Gudgell of Independence MO.  Included in the article is a photo of
A.C. Gudgell.  This is the same Charles Gudgell of the Hereford cattle
ranches.

www.ci.independence.mo.us/Chapter2.pdf

Vivian


From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
To: "Vivian Gudgell" 
Subject: Fw: A. C. Gudgell photo
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 23:17:45 -0700

SORRY about that url.  I left part of it out. Here it is again
www.ci.independence.mo.us/pl/Chapter2.pdf

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
To: "Vivian Gudgell" 
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 11:13 PM
Subject: A. C. Gudgell photo


: Hi all,
: On this web page is an article about electric power and A. Charles
: Gudgell of Independence MO.  Included in the article is a photo of
: A.C. Gudgell.  This is the same Charles Gudgell of the Hereford
cattle
: ranches.
:
: www.ci.independence.mo.us/Chapter2.pdf
:
: Vivian
:



From: Bob Gudgel 
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 10:51:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: AC Gudgell


This AC Gudgel article is FANTASTIC !   AND has great relevence to the business I am in .
Which is alternative energy.

I wonder if there was a relative named DC Gudgell too !

I'm gone to Massachusetts for a few days.  Hold down the fort !
boB




From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
Subject: Ruby Gudgell obituary
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:08:03 -0700

Here is an obituary that I found published on the internet.  Maybe
someone of you will be interested.
Vivian

Taken from the Natchez Democrat
Ruby Gudgell

May 7, 1918 - July 20, 2003

NATCHEZ - Services for Ruby Gudgell, 85, of Natchez, who died Sunday,
July 20, 2003, at University Medical Center in Jackson, will be at 11
a.m. Thursday at Trinity Episcopal Church with The Very Rev. Zabron A.
Davis, III and the Rev. Paul Stephens officiating.

Burial will be in Greenlawn Memorial Park under the direction of Laird
Funeral Home.

Visitation is from 10 a.m. until service time Thursday at the church.

Mrs. Gudgell was born may 7, 1918, in Conway, AR, the daughter of
Grover Cleveland and Ruby Savannah Munn Graham.

She was a member of Trinity Episcopal Church.

Mrs. Gudgell was preceded in death by her parents and husband, Charles
Gudgell, Sr.

Survivors include sons, Charles Gudgell, Jr. of Destrehan, LA and John
Gudgell of Natchez; sister, Ruth Wright of Jasper, AL; three
grandchildren.

Pallbearers will be Ralph Shields, III, Howard Turpin, Randy Calvert,
Marion Stewart, James Nutter and Rev. Sam Tomlinson.





Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2003 14:51:39 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: Vivian Gudgell 
Subject: Re: Ruby Gudgell obituary

Vivian,
Thanks for sending this. Can you tell us what state it pertains to and 
do you know the date of the article?
Dianne G-H

Vivian Gudgell wrote:

>Here is an obituary that I found published on the internet.  Maybe
>someone of you will be interested.
>Vivian
>
>Taken from the Natchez Democrat
>Ruby Gudgell
>
>May 7, 1918 - July 20, 2003
>
>NATCHEZ - Services for Ruby Gudgell, 85, of Natchez, who died Sunday,
>July 20, 2003, at University Medical Center in Jackson, will be at 11
>a.m. Thursday at Trinity Episcopal Church with The Very Rev. Zabron A.
>Davis, III and the Rev. Paul Stephens officiating.
>
>Burial will be in Greenlawn Memorial Park under the direction of Laird
>Funeral Home.
>
>Visitation is from 10 a.m. until service time Thursday at the church.
>
>Mrs. Gudgell was born may 7, 1918, in Conway, AR, the daughter of
>Grover Cleveland and Ruby Savannah Munn Graham.
>
>She was a member of Trinity Episcopal Church.
>
>Mrs. Gudgell was preceded in death by her parents and husband, Charles
>Gudgell, Sr.
>
>Survivors include sons, Charles Gudgell, Jr. of Destrehan, LA and John
>Gudgell of Natchez; sister, Ruth Wright of Jasper, AL; three
>grandchildren.
>
>Pallbearers will be Ralph Shields, III, Howard Turpin, Randy Calvert,
>Marion Stewart, James Nutter and Rev. Sam Tomlinson.
>
>
>
>
>  
>


From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
To: 
Subject: Re: Ruby Gudgell obituary
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 15:59:26 -0700

Here is the heading from the article.

The Natchez Democrat - Mississippi's best small community daily ...
Obituaries for July 22, 2003. Obituaries published in the Tuesday,
July
22, 2003, edition of The Natchez Democrat. Ruby Gudgell. Funeral


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dianne Holmes" 
To: "Vivian Gudgell" 
Cc: "Gudgel-list" 
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: Ruby Gudgell obituary


: Vivian,
: Thanks for sending this. Can you tell us what state it pertains to
and
: do you know the date of the article?
: Dianne G-H
:
: Vivian Gudgell wrote:
:
: >Here is an obituary that I found published on the internet.  Maybe
: >someone of you will be interested.
: >Vivian
: >
: >Taken from the Natchez Democrat
: >Ruby Gudgell
: >
: >May 7, 1918 - July 20, 2003
: >
: >NATCHEZ - Services for Ruby Gudgell, 85, of Natchez, who died
Sunday,
: >July 20, 2003, at University Medical Center in Jackson, will be at
11
: >a.m. Thursday at Trinity Episcopal Church with The Very Rev. Zabron
A.
: >Davis, III and the Rev. Paul Stephens officiating.
: >
: >Burial will be in Greenlawn Memorial Park under the direction of
Laird
: >Funeral Home.
: >
: >Visitation is from 10 a.m. until service time Thursday at the
church.
: >
: >Mrs. Gudgell was born may 7, 1918, in Conway, AR, the daughter of
: >Grover Cleveland and Ruby Savannah Munn Graham.
: >
: >She was a member of Trinity Episcopal Church.
: >
: >Mrs. Gudgell was preceded in death by her parents and husband,
Charles
: >Gudgell, Sr.
: >
: >Survivors include sons, Charles Gudgell, Jr. of Destrehan, LA and
John
: >Gudgell of Natchez; sister, Ruth Wright of Jasper, AL; three
: >grandchildren.
: >
: >Pallbearers will be Ralph Shields, III, Howard Turpin, Randy
Calvert,
: >Marion Stewart, James Nutter and Rev. Sam Tomlinson.
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
: >
:
:
:


From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
Subject: Gudgells in civil war
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 17:59:19 -0700

Hi all,
Here are some more items that I found today. Maybe it will help
someone,
Vivian

www.iowa3rdcavalry.com/newroster/CoF.html


Co.F
Atlanta, Ga.
Gudgell, Benjamin F. (Veteran.) Age 26 Residence Fairfield, nativity
Kentucky. Enlisted Aug.
26, 1861, as Bugler. Mustered Aug. 30, 1861. Re-enlisted and
re-mustered Feb. 1, 1864.
Promoted Eighth Corporal Sept. 1, 1864; Seventh Corporal Jan. 13,
1865; Sixth Corporal March
1, 1865; Fifth Corporal July 1, 1865. Mustered out Aug. 9, 1865,
Atlanta, Ga.

Gudgell, Richard J. (Veteran.) Age 18. Residence Fairfield, nativity
Missouri. Enlisted Aug.
26, 1861, as Bugler. Mustered Aug. 30, 1861. Promoted Eighth Corporal
Dec. 27, 1863. Re-enlisted
and re-mustered Feb. 1, 1864. Promoted Fifth Corporal Feb. 10, 1864;
Fourth Corporal
June 7, 1864; Third Corporal March 1, 1865. Mustered out Aug. 9, 1865,
Atlanta, Ga.

Gudgell, John D. Age 28. Residence Fairfield, nativity Kentucky.
Enlisted Aug. 26, 1861.
Mustered Aug. 30, 1861. Promoted Eighth Corporal Jan. 15, 1862; Fifth
Corporal Oct. 3, 1862;
Fourth Corporal Nov. 1, 1862. Third Corporal March 20, 1863; Second
Corporal May 15, 1863.
Mustered out Sept. 19, 1864, expiration of term of service.




From: "Linda Smith" 
Subject: picture
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2003 18:30:28 -0500

Hello to all ,
      I am looking for any pictures of Harry and Fannie Gudgel . They =
were from Athens Ill .They were my grandparents but I do not have any =
photos of them .If any one has any thing on them I would be very =
grateful .

                                     Thank you
                                             Linda Gudgel Smith







Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 16:01:15 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
Subject: Gudgel in the news


WHITEWRIGHT throttles Blue Ridge
Sherman Denison Herald Democrat, TX
WHITEWRIGHT - Whitewright's Luke Gudgel ran for 100 yards and scored four
touchdowns and Morgan Floyd added three more scores on 121 yards as the
hosts capped ...


-- 
Take a look at my Internet garage sale.
http://www.eskimo.com/~ralphj/


From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: Jost Pancake/Pannkuch (and other spellings), son-in-law of Frederick GODSHALL (and ther spellings).
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 20:32:38 -0400


These two deeds were submitted by David L. Boucher, Livingston, =
Louisiana, DLB613@mindspring.com=20
Yost Pannakucha & Mary Gotshall to John Trout=20

Bucks Co. PA Deed Book 9, pp. 212-214=20

Dated 19 Jun 1749, Recorded 17 Jul 1754




This Indenture Made the Nineteenth Day of June in ye Year of Our Lord =
One Thousand Seven Hundred and Forty Nine Between Yost Pannakucha of ye =
Township of Frankonia in the County of Philadelphia in ye Province of =
Pennsylvania Yeoman and Anne Mary Gotshall of ye same Township Widow of =
Frederick Gotshall of ye same Place Yeoman Deceased of the One Part and =
John Trout of the Township of Upper Dublin in the County of Philadelphia =
Yeoman of the other Part. WhereAs there is a Certain Piece of Land =
Situate on Tohickon Creek in the County of Bucks Beginning at a stone =
Sett for a Corner Continuing thence North Twenty Seven perches to a =
white Oak Tree thence North Seventy Degrees West Sixty perches to a =
post, thence North Eighty Six Degrees West five and Twenty perches to a =
White Oak Saplin, thence South Twenty One Degrees East twenty two =
perches to a post, thence South Eighty five Degrees East Twenty Eight =
perches to a White Oak Tree, Thence South Seventy One Degrees East fifty =
perches to the place of Beginning Containing Twelve Acres of Land. And =
Whereas the said Twelve Acres of Land is part of Two hundred and =
seventeen Acres of Land which John Penn, Thomas Penn, and Richard Penn =
Esquires Proprietors of ye said Province by a Certain Patent bearing =
Date the fourteenth Day of February in the Year of Our Lord One Thousand =
Seven hundred thirty Eight Did grant and Confirm unto Eleazar Doan to =
hold to him his Heirs and Assigns for Ever as by the said Patent -- =
Recorded at Philadelphia in Patent Book A; Vol. 9; page 1; as may at =
Large Appear.=20

And Wheras the said Eleazar Doan by his Indenture Bearing Date on ye =
Twenty Sixth Day of November in ye Year of Our Lord One Thousand Seven =
Hundred and Forty Six Did grant Convey and Confirm ye said Tract of Land =
above Described unto ye said Frederick Gotshall Deceased To hold to him =
the said Frederick Gotshall his Heirs and Assigns for Ever as by the =
said Indenture may at Large Appear. By Virtue of which said Indenture =
the said Frederick Gotshall became Lawfully Seized thereof, and being so =
seized thereof the said Frederick Gotshall made his Last Will and =
Testament in Writing and Bequeathed in this manner And Further it is my =
Will , that after my Decease that my Executors shall make a Publick Sale =
of my Estate both Real and Personal to such person or persons as they =
shall see fit and to give Sufficient Writings for the Same and a Little =
onward he said and further more I do Nominate and Appoint my Loving Wife =
Ann Mary Gotshall and my Son in Law Yost Panakucha Joynt Ex'ers of my =
Last Will and Testament and give them as full Power as my Self. Now this =
Indenture Witnesseth That the said Yost Pannakucha and the said Ann Mary =
Gotshall in Order to Enable them to pay ye said Frederick Gotshall's =
Debts & Legacies For and in Consideration of the Sum of Seventy Pounds =
Current money of Philadelphia to them well and Truly paid by the said =
John Trout and the Receipt whereof they the said Yost Pannakucha and the =
said Ann Mary Gotshall (Both Executors of ye Last Will and Testament of =
the said Frederick Gotshall Deceased) Doth hereby Acknowledge and =
thereof Do Acquit and for Ever discharge ye said John Trout his Heirs =
and Assigns by these Presents Hath Granted Bargained Sold Released and =
Confirmed and by these presents Doth Grant Bargain Sell Release and =
Confirm unto the said John Trout his Heirs and Assigns One Moiety or One =
full Equall & Undivided half part of the above Described piece of Land =
lying and being as the same is above set forth and Described Containing =
Twelve Acres above said. It being ye Land on Which Stands a Mill pond =
belonging to a Mill Erected by the said Frederick Gotshall Deceased and =
Abraham Vashiner in Partnership on Tohickon afores'd which Mill hath =
been of Late in the Possession of Andrew Gotshall and ye said Abraham =
Vashiner, but of Late the said Andrew Gotshall hath Conveyed his part to =
ye s'd Yost Pannakucha and the said Ann Mary Gotshall. Together with all =
and Singular the Rights Liberties Priviledges Advantages Hereditaments =
and Appurtenances whatsoever unto Such Moiety Or one full Equal and =
Undivided half part of the s'd Twelve Acres of Land Belonging or in any =
wise Appertaining and the Reversion and Revertions Remainder & =
remainders Rents Shares and Profits thereof To have and to hold the said =
Moiety or One full Equal and Undivided half part of the said Twelve =
Acres of Land Hereditaments and Premises hereby Granted or mentioned to =
be Granted with the Appurtenances unto the said John Trout his Heirs and =
Assigns To the only Proper Use Benefit and Behoof of him the said John =
Trout his Heirs and Assigns for Ever Under the Proportional part=20

[1-2 lines cut off at top of page on photocopy]=20

Shall and will upon the Reasonable Request Cost and Charges of the said =
John Trout his Heirs or Assigns make Execute and Acknowledge or Cause so =
to be all and Every Such other and further Act and Acts Deed or Deeds =
Device or Devices in ye Law whatsoever for the further and Better =
Assurance and Confirmation of the said One Moiety or one full Equall and =
Undivided half part of ye said Twelve Acres of Land and Premises hereby =
Granted or mentioned to be Granted with ye Appurtenances unto the said =
John Trout his Heirs and Assigns; as by him or them or by his or their =
Council Learned in the Law shall be Reasonably Desired Advised or =
Required. In Witness whereof the said Parties to these Presents have =
Interchangeably Sett their Hands and Seals -- Dated the Day and Year =
first above Written. Yost Pannakucha (seal) Anne Mary (her mark) =
Gotshall (seal)=20

Sealed and Delivered (the word Did grant and Confirm to Eleazar Doan to =
hold to him his Heirs and Assigns for Ever in ye Sixth Line was =
Interlined before Signing and made known to the Evidence In the Presence =
of Us) (The will being not present Too Little Blank being Left So it is =
Inserted here being these words as by ye s'd Wills Remaining in ye =
Register General's Office at Philadelphia bearing Dates ye Seventh Day =
of November Anno Domini 1748) Margaret (her mark) Owen; Griffith Owen=20

Received on the Day of ye Date of the within Writen Deed of ye Within =
Named John Trout the full Sum of One Hundred and Seventy Five Pounds =
Current money of Pennsylvania it being the Consideration money within we =
Say Rec'd. Yost Pannakucha Ann Mary (her mark) Gotshall.=20

Witnesses present at Signing Margaret (her mark) Owen Griffith Owen=20



Memorandum That on the 19th Day of June Anno Domini 1749 Before me Simon =
Butler Esq. One of the Justices of ye peace for the County of Bucks Came =
the above Named Yost Pannakucha and Anne Mary Gotshall and Brought the =
above Written Indenture Or Conveyance which they Acknowledged to be =
their Act and Deed and Desired that ye Same may be Recorded as their =
Deed Witness my Hand and Seal the Day and Year above said. Sim'n Butler =
(seal)=20



Recorded the 17th Day of July 1754=20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------



Yost Pannakucha, Agnes Pannakucha & Anne Mary Gotshall to John Trout=20

Bucks Co. PA Deed Book 9, pp. 214-216=20

Dated 19 Jun 1749, Recorded 18 Jul 1754




This Indenture Made the Nineteenth Day of June in ye Year of Our Lord =
One Thousand Seven Hundred and Forty Nine Between Yost Pannakucha of ye =
Township of Frankonia in the County of Philadelphia in ye Province of =
Pennsylvania Yeoman and Agnes his Wife and Anne Mary Gotshall of ye same =
Township Widow of ye One part, and John Trout of the Township of Upper =
Dublin in the County of Philadelphia and Province of Pennsylvania =
aforesaid Yeoman of the other Part. Whereas the Honourable John Penn, =
Thomas Penn, and Richard Penn Esquires Proprietors of ye said Province =
by a Certain Patent Bearing Date the Twenty Eight Day of January in the =
Year of Our Lord One Thousand Seven hundred and Forty Three Did Grant =
and Confirm Unto Andrew Gotshall a Certain Piece or Tract of Land =
Situate In or near ye Township of Bedminster in the County of Bucks in =
the said Province Beginning at a Marked Hickory by the edge of Tohickon =
Creek and from thence extending by Varent's Land North East Forty Nine =
perches to a Corner of Land now or Late of John Hutchinson thence by the =
Same North Sixty four Degrees West One hundred and five perches to a =
post for another Corner thence by Land now or late of Thomas Lancaster =
South forty Nine perches to a Marked Elm Tree by the side of the said =
Creek, thence by the Same Creek on the Several Courses thereof to the =
place of Beginning Containing Twenty Five Acres and an allowance =
Proportionable to Six Per Cent for Roads and Highways To Hold the said =
Twenty five Acres and Allowances Together with the Appurtenances unto =
him the said Andrew Gotshall his Heirs and Assigns for Ever, As by the =
said Patent Recorded at Philadelphia in Patent Book A, Vol 12, page 44 =
as may more fully Appear. And Whereas the said Andrew Gotshall and =
Kathrin his Wife by their Indenture Bearing Date the Thirtyth Day of May =
in ye Year of Our Lord One Thousand Seven hundred forty Nine, For the =
Consideration therein mentioned Did Grant Convey and Confirm ye above =
said Tract of Land Or One Moiety or Equall and Undivided half part =
thereof and of a Grist Mill thereon Erected to ye said Yost Pannakucha =
and ye said Anne Mary Gotshall To hold to them ye said Yost Pannakucha =
and ye s'd Anne Mary Gotshall ye s'd One full Equall and Undivided =
Moiety or half part of ye said Water Grist Mill and the said Twenty five =
Acres of Land thereto Belonging their Heirs and Assigns for Ever. Now =
this Indenture Witnesseth That ye s'd Yost Pannakucha and Agnes his Wife =
and ye said Anne Mary Gotshall For and in Consideration of the Sum of =
One hundred and Fifty five Pounds Current money of Pennsylvania unto =
them well and Truly paid by the said John Trout at and Before ye Sealing =
and Delivery hereof the Receipt whereof they the said Yost Pannakucha =
and Agnes his Wife and the said Anne Mary Gotshall Doth hereby =
Acknowledge and thereof Do Acquit and for Ever Discharge the said John =
Trout his Heirs and Assigns by these presents Have Granted Bargained =
Sold Released and Confirmed and by these Presents Do Grant Bargain Sell =
Release and Confirm unto ye said John Trout and to his Heirs and Assigns =
The One full Equall and Undivided half part of Moiety of a Certain =
Massuage or Tenement and Grist Mill and of the above Described Twenty =
five Acres of Land (whereon the said Mill is Erected) Thereto Belonging =
and of all and singular the Buildings Improvements Mill Races head =
Waters Mill Ponds Banks Dams Ways Waters Water Courses Streams of Water =
Woods Rights Liberties Priviledges Hereditaments & Appurtenances =
whatsoever unto the above mentioned Mills and Twenty five Acres of Land =
and the aforesaid Allowances Belonging or in any wise Appertaining or =
Reputed to be any Member or part of the same and the Revertions and =
Remainders Rents Emoluments Mill Fall Issues and Profits of the said One =
full Equall and Undivided Moiety or half part. To have and to hold the =
said One full Equall and Undivided Moiety or half part of the said Water =
Grist Mill and ye Twenty five Acres of Land and the said Allowances =
hereditaments and Premises hereby Granted or mentioned to be Granted =
with the Appurtenances unto the said John Trout and his Heirs and =
Assigns for Ever Under the Proportionable part of the Yearly Quit Rent =
(at the Rate of one half Starling (symbol) Acres and for Every Acre =
thereafter Accruing to ye Chief Lord or Lords of the Fee thereof). And =
the said Yost Pannakucha and Agnes his Wife and the said Anne Mary =
Gotshall for themselves and their Heirs Doth hereby Covenant That they =
said Yost Pannakucha and Agnes his Wife and ye said Anne Mary Gotshall =
and their Heirs the said One Moiety or One full Equall and Undivided =
half part of said Grist Mill and of ye said Twenty five Acres of Land =
and ye said Allowances hereditaments and Premises hereby Granted or =
mentioned to be Granted with the Appurtenances unto ye said John Trout =
his Heirs and Assigns against them ye said Yost Pannakucha and Agnes his =
Wife and ye said Anne Mary Gotshall and their Heirs and Against all and =
Every other Person and Persons whomsoever Lawfully Claiming or to Claim =
by from or Under him ye s'd Yost Pannakucha and Agnes his Wife and their =
Heirs and Against ye said Anne Mary Gotshall and her Heirs Shall and =
Will Warrant and for Ever Defend by these Presents. In Witness whereof =
the said Parties to these Presents have Interchangeably Set their Hands =
and Fixed their Seals hereunto Dated the Day and Year first above =
Writen.=20

Yost Pannakucha (seal) Agnes (her mark) Pannakucha (seal) Anne Mary (her =
mark) Gotshall (seal)=20

Sealed and Delivered with ye words parting ye 15 and ye 26 Lines in the =
presence of=20

Margaret (her mark) Owen Griffith Owen=20

Received on ye Day of ye Date of the within written Deed by ye within =
Named John Trout the Sum of One hundred and Seventy five Lawfull money =
of Pennsylvania being the Consideration money within mentioned We Say =
Rec'd by us Yost Pannakucha Agnes (her mark) Pannakucha Anne Mary (her =
mark) Gotshall=20

Witnesses present at Signing Margaret (her mark) Owen Griffith Owen=20



Memorandum That on the Nineteenth Day of June Anno Domini 1749. Before =
me Simon Butler Esq. One of the Justices of ye Peace for the County of =
Bucks, Came the above Named Yost Pannakucha and Anne Mary Gotshall and =
Brought the above Written Indenture or Conveyance, which they =
Acknowledged to be their Act and Deed, and Desired that the same may be =
Recorded as their Deed. Witness my Hand and Seal the Day and Year above =
said -- Sim'n Butler (seal)=20



Recorded the 18 Day of July Anno Domini 1754=20


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Submitted, transcribed and coded by David L. Boucher, =
DLB613@mindspring.com.=20


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Return to the Bucks, Montgomery and Philadelphia Counties Page

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 17:58:15 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
Subject: Another Gudgfel in news

KEOKUK mayoral candidates state their cases
Burlington Hawk Eye, IA
... First, there is incumbent Dave Gudgel, who believes that the city has
progressed monumentally in the two years since he took the office of mayor
from Gary ...


This once-a-day News Alert is brought to you by Google New






Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 18:01:05 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
Subject: Gudgel again

Who is the Luke Gudgel that plays great football?  Just wondering.  He 
is doing quite well. 
Who are his ancestors?

SADLER -- Luke Gudgel broke a tie in the fourth quarter with a 75-yard
kickoff return for a touchdown to lead Whitewright (4-2, 3-0) over S&S
Consolidated in 13 ...








From gudgel-list-request@eskimo.com  Tue Oct 14 05:52:18 2003
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To: gudgel-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Luke Gudgel
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Luke Gudgel is probably from one of the two Gudgel families who went to
the Sherman, Texas, area from Pike County, IL. after the Civil War.  The
brothers who went there were Allen and Calvin Gudgel.  They were
half-brothers to my great grandfather, David Gudgel.  Luke probably
belongs to the Calvin line.  This is Doc Gudgel's line.  
 The descendancy is Frederick,  old Andrew, John, Andrew, Calvin &
Allen, ???

Maybe if Oletta Henderson reads this, she can give us additional
information.  Oletta lives in Sherman & descends from Allen's line.

Ardath Potts

From gudgel-list-request@eskimo.com  Tue Oct 14 08:21:41 2003
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To: gudgel-list@eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:21:18 -0700
Subject: Year, Ship, Port, etc.
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From: "Wm. E Gudgel" 
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Hello Cousins,

	 I have been contacted by Carolyn Hackett Dowd, Forest Ranch, CA.  She
is the daughter of Adele Coon Hackett. 	Carolyn taking over the family
genealogy research for her mother.  

	Carolyn has asked me a few quick questions that require more of an
answer than my research contains.  I don't think Carolyn is on the
Gudgel-list yet so I am forwarding her question to the Gudgel-list for
help.
	Do we know the year, the ship, and the port, that our Gudgel family
entered the United States?

	Can anyone help in this area of research?

Have a great week,
Bill Gudgel

________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!

From gudgel-list-request@eskimo.com  Tue Oct 14 08:55:58 2003
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Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 07:55:48 -0800
From: Dianne Holmes 
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Subject: Re: Year, Ship, Port, etc.
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We've been asking the same questions for years. Just caution everyone to 
not be too hasty in jumping to conclusions when something is found that 
looks like the ship/port/ and correct name.
Dianne G-H

Wm. E Gudgel wrote:

>Hello Cousins,
>
>	 I have been contacted by Carolyn Hackett Dowd, Forest Ranch, CA.  She
>is the daughter of Adele Coon Hackett. 	Carolyn taking over the family
>genealogy research for her mother.  
>
>	Carolyn has asked me a few quick questions that require more of an
>answer than my research contains.  I don't think Carolyn is on the
>Gudgel-list yet so I am forwarding her question to the Gudgel-list for
>help.
>	Do we know the year, the ship, and the port, that our Gudgel family
>entered the United States?
>
>	Can anyone help in this area of research?
>
>Have a great week,
>Bill Gudgel
>
>________________________________________________________________
>The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
>Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
>Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
>
>
>
>  
>


From gudgel-list-request@eskimo.com  Tue Oct 14 10:59:33 2003
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Message-ID: <004401c3927b$71f01ce0$73eb1342@jagudgel.wwdb.org>
Reply-To: "Jennette A. Gudgel" 
From: "Jennette A. Gudgel" 
To: , "Wm. E Gudgel" 
Cc: 
Subject: Re: Year, Ship, Port, etc.
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And let's don't forget that the Gottschalls arrived before
there was much of a "port authority"--so it's very possible
there are no records.  It would be great if we could find
that info. and we should keep seeking.
So much for my two cents.
-jennette

-----Original Message-----
From: Dianne Holmes 
To: Wm. E Gudgel 
Cc: gudgel-list@eskimo.com 
Date: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: Year, Ship, Port, etc.


>We've been asking the same questions for years. Just caution everyone to 
>not be too hasty in jumping to conclusions when something is found that 
>looks like the ship/port/ and correct name.
>Dianne G-H
>
>Wm. E Gudgel wrote:
>
>>Hello Cousins,
>>
>> I have been contacted by Carolyn Hackett Dowd, Forest Ranch, CA.  She
>>is the daughter of Adele Coon Hackett. Carolyn taking over the family
>>genealogy research for her mother.  
>>
>> Carolyn has asked me a few quick questions that require more of an
>>answer than my research contains.  I don't think Carolyn is on the
>>Gudgel-list yet so I am forwarding her question to the Gudgel-list for
>>help.
>> Do we know the year, the ship, and the port, that our Gudgel family
>>entered the United States?
>>
>> Can anyone help in this area of research?
>>
>>Have a great week,
>>Bill Gudgel
>>
>>________________________________________________________________
>>The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
>>Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
>>Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>
>
>

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:47:14 -0700
From: Ralph Johnson 
Subject: Gudgel book  seller

I ran across a Duane Gudgel from Valentine NE who owns a book store in 
Valentine Nebraska. His book store is named Plains Trading Company. If 
you want to learn more about his books go to 
http://incolor.inebraska.com/ptcbooks/  He specializes in books about 
the Plains.   Sounds Interesting

Doyal Gudgel







From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: Fw: [KYSCOTT-L] more pictures for "out of towners"
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:18:52 -0400
Hi Folks-

For those who haven't been to KY before, take a look at these photos on the
links below.  These were taken in the next county over, Scott County, and
the county seat is Georgetown.  Maybe it will bring back some memories of
those who use to farm.  But we have big cities not far from here as
Lexington, Louisville and well,... I guess yu could say Frankfort is fair
sized.  Not the biggeest, even though it is the state capital.  Anyway, it
is very pretty here especially this time of year.
Take your time looking at these photos, I think you'll enjoy them.

Linda,
from Kentucky


----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2003 8:30 AM
Subject: [KYSCOTT-L] more pictures for "out of towners"


> http://www.scottcoky.net/family/scottcoautumn.htm
>
> I also put up the pictures I have of the tobacco growing cycle.
> http://www.scottcoky.net/family/tobacco_cycle.htm
>
> Unfortunately I could not get a picture of the fellows cutting tobacco,
nor
> could I get one of the wild turkey flock I saw a few blocks from my house
in
> late September.  Maybe I'll have another chance later, but remember this -
> if you come to KY to do real research be sure to drive some of the small
> county roads and outlying areas to really get the feel of the place.  Last
> week I had a researcher from IL come to my home and she was amazed at the
> beauty of the area.
> Jo
>
>
>
> ==== KYSCOTT Mailing List ====
> Newly added community site is http://www.scottcoky.net/sckndex.htm
> It includes links for ordering local books, calendars and mementos from
local non-profit organizations.
>





Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:32:04 -0700
From: Brent Gudgel 
Subject: Dave Gudgel's new book

Hello Gudgels,

Just wanted to spread the word that David Gudgel, of Phoeniz, AZ 
(formerly Agoura, CA) has a new book out entitled "Before You Live 
Together." It's available at Amazon.com. Check it out, and tell all your 
friends. :-)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0830732527/qid=1066195529/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-3383420-2590229?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Or just search for Gudgel at Amazon.com.

By the way, this is Brent Gudgel writing. I'm in Altadena, CA. Dave's 
son. I do media stuff for a living.

sincerely,
Brent Gudgel




From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: Obituary: Mrs. Linnie E. GUDGELL  d. 16 November 16, 1911 - Kansas City, MO
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 13:29:24 -0400

Can someone tell me who this lady is?
Linda

Subject: Mrs. Linnie E. GUDGELL d. 16 November 16, 1911 - Kansas City, =
MO


"The Kansas City Times" (Missouri) Friday, November 17, 1911

DEATHS IN KANSAS CITY.
=20
Mrs. Linnie E. GUDGELL, 49 years old, died at her home, 2716 Kensington =
Avenue, at 7:30 o'clock yesterday morning.  She was a widow and had =
lived in Kansas City thirteen years.  She is survived by two daughters, =
Gladys and Edwina GUDGELL of this city, and two sons, Ira GUDGELL, =
Utica, Ill., and Ralph GUDGELL of Maricopa, Cal.   Funeral services will =
be held at Gates' undertaking rooms, 3714 East Twenty-seventh Street, at =
2:30 o'clock Sunday afternoon.  Burial will be in Princeton, Ill., the =
former home.






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From: "Vivian Gudgell" 
To: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Cc: "Gudgel-list" 
References: <000b01c39666$8b2a1f50$0e31b93f@finnell>
Subject: Re: Obituary: Mrs. Linnie E. GUDGELL  d. 16 November 16, 1911 - Kansas City, MO
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Linda,
I don't know who she is, but she is buried in Oakland Cemetery Princeton =
Illinois Lot 9 block 14 together with
 Harry L. d. 1901,
 Hazel d. unk,
 Ora L. d. 1896,=20
 Sarah M. (Sadie) d. 1886.
 Linnie E. d. 1911

Two other Gudgells are buried in Lot 2, block 53, They are Harrison W. =
and Clara B (Derbyshire) Gudgell from Meadville MO.  Harrison W. is s/o =
William G. s/o Mahlon s/o Daniel s/o ?Andrew, s/o ?Frederick

Vivian gudgell
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Linda Gudgel Finnell=20
  To: Gudgel List=20
  Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2003 10:29 AM
  Subject: Obituary: Mrs. Linnie E. GUDGELL d. 16 November 16, 1911 - =
Kansas City, MO


  Can someone tell me who this lady is?
  Linda

  Subject: Mrs. Linnie E. GUDGELL d. 16 November 16, 1911 - Kansas City, =
MO


  "The Kansas City Times" (Missouri) Friday, November 17, 1911

  DEATHS IN KANSAS CITY.
  =20
  Mrs. Linnie E. GUDGELL, 49 years old, died at her home, 2716 =
Kensington Avenue, at 7:30 o'clock yesterday morning.  She was a widow =
and had lived in Kansas City thirteen years.  She is survived by two =
daughters, Gladys and Edwina GUDGELL of this city, and two sons, Ira =
GUDGELL, Utica, Ill., and Ralph GUDGELL of Maricopa, Cal.   Funeral =
services will be held at Gates' undertaking rooms, 3714 East =
Twenty-seventh Street, at 2:30 o'clock Sunday afternoon.  Burial will be =
in Princeton, Ill., the former home.





Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:44:41 -0800
From: Ralph Johnson 
To: msc-list@eskimo.com, gudgel-list 
Subject: well said
 


    I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to sue somebody
    for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December.

    I don't agree with Darwin, but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer
    when my high school teacher taught his theory of evolution.

    Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not be endangered
    because someone says a 30-second prayer before a football game. So
    what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there reading the
    entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe in
    and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the
    fans going home from the game. "But it's a Christian prayer," some
    will argue. Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country
    founded on Christian principles. And we are in the Bible Belt.
    According to our very own phone book, Christian churches outnumber
    all others better than 200-to-1. So what would you expect-somebody
    chanting Hare Krishna?

    If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a
    Jewish prayer.

    If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a
    Muslim prayer.

    If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would expect to hear
    someone pray to Buddha.

    And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother me one bit. When in
    Rome...

    "But what about the atheists?" is another argument. What about them?
    Nobody is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to pass the
    collection plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds. If that's asking too
    much, bring a Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the bathroom.
    Visit the concession stand. Call your lawyer. Unfortunately, one or
    two will make that call. One or two will tell thousands what they
    can and cannot do. I don't think a short prayer at a football game
    is going to shake the world's foundations.

    Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while
    our courts strip us of all our rights. Our parents and grandparents
    taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep. Our
    Bible tells us just to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people
    and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying. God, help us. And
    if that last sentence offends you, well..........just sue me.

    The silent majority has been silent too long.. it's time we let that
    one or two who scream loud enough to be heard, that the vast
    majority don't care what they want.. it is time the majority rules!

    It's time we tell them, you don't have to pray.. you don't have to
    say the pledge of allegiance, you don't have to believe in God or
    attend services that honor Him. That is your right, and we will
    honor your right.. but by golly you are no longer going to take our
    rights away .. we are fighting back.. and we WILL WIN! After all the
    God you have the right to denounce is on our side!

    God bless us one and all, especially those who denounce Him...

    God bless America, despite all her faults.. still the greatest
    nation of all.....

    God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right to
    pray and worship God...

    May 2003 be the year the silent majority is heard and we put God
    back as the foundation of our families and institutions.

    Keep looking up...... In God WE Trust


    Life is not a spectator sport.
    Enjoy Life One Breath at a Time





Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:48:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Daily Gate City: News Column

Two years ago, David Gudgel defeated the incumbent candidate for the
office of Mayor of Keokuk, Iowa.  Yesterday he won again for another
two-year term.  His victory was a landslide.  Your can read about it in
the Daily  Gate City, attached.

Ardath Potts




Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 21:21:52 -0800
From: Ralph Johnson 
To: msc-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Veterans day

Shocking revelations about how the Government treats veterans.
What follows is an excerpt of an article by William Rivers Pitt.  
Perhaps you are not aware of how things have changed for our honored 
service men and women.  Not mentioned here is that in most instances 
there are not enough military people and hardware to make a parade in 
honor of Veterans Day. 

     Without Honor
     By William Rivers Pitt
     t r u t h o u t | Perspective

     Monday 10 November 2003

     Very nearly 40 American soldiers have been killed in Iraq since the 
month of November began. 33 more were killed in October, and 16 more 
died in September. The total losses, to date, creep towards 400. Few 
American citizens are aware of this, because the Bush administration has 
made it policy to deliberately hide these honored dead from the media. 
No cameras are allowed inside the Dover, DE facility that receives the 
ruined bodies of our troops.

     No cameras are allowed inside Walter Reed Army Medical Center to 
film the thousands of soldiers who have been catastrophically wounded in 
Iraq, nor are cameras allowed inside the facility at Ft. Stewart in 
Georgia where the wounded await treatment in conditions they have 
described as inhumane.

     No Bush official has been to a single funeral for any of the 
fallen, because that would bring unwanted publicity onto the ruinous 
casualties we have suffered. The Pentagon is doing its part as well. The 
term "body bags" was dispensed with during the 1991 Gulf War for the 
kinder, gentler euphemism "human remains pouches." The term has been 
changed again by the Pentagon. Today in Iraq, soldiers killed in the 
line of duty are placed inside "transfer tubes" for their anonymous, 
unnoticed trip home.

     American soldiers killed in Afghanistan were roundly filmed as they 
returned home, and the images of their flag-draped caskets were 
broadcast all across the country with broad and honored fanfare. 
President Clinton was present to welcome home the coffins of soldiers 
killed in Kosovo. Pictures of the coffins carrying sailors killed in the 
bombing of the USS Cole were also widely broadcast. President Bush Sr. 
was on hand to welcome the caskets of soldiers killed in Lebanon and 
Panama.

     The men and women killed in Iraq are afforded no such honor. They 
are a dirty little secret, hidden from view lest they cause political 
discomfort to the administration that got them killed.

     The Bush administration has taken to hiding from even the most 
obvious signs that, once upon a time, this war served their propaganda 
purposes. When George W. Bush declared an end to combat operations in 
Iraq aboard the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln, his televised image 
was framed by a massive banner that read "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED." At the 
time, the administration was more than happy to take credit for the banner.

     Full and specific credit, at the time, was given to Scott Sforza, a 
former ABC producer hired by the administration to work for the White 
House Communication's Director. Mr. Sforza can be credited for those 
snappy backdrops draped around Bush when he speaks, the ones with the 
catch-words repeated ad nauseam. Sforza spent several days "embedded" 
aboard the Abraham Lincoln to organize the event for full media effect, 
going so far as to hand-pick the Navy personnel to be displayed, and to 
choose the color of the clothes they would wear.

     Once it became clear that the only mission that had been 
accomplished in Iraq was the looting of the American Treasury, the 
unnecessary deaths of hundreds of American troops, the unnecessary 
maiming of thousands more, and the ruination of our reputation around 
the world, George W. Bush himself went out of his way to disavow any 
involvement with the braggadocio of the banner. In an October 28 press 
conference, Bush said, "The 'Mission Accomplished' sign, of course, was 
put up by the members of the USS Abraham Lincoln, saying that their 
mission was accomplished."

     And so the military, again, is left holding the bag for Bush




From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: Fw: Happy Thanksgiving
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:17:20 -0500




>
> Best Wishes to each of you at Thanksgiving.  May you eat well and enjoy
the
> love of family and friends at this special time of year.
>               Gary and Linda
>
>
> > TWAS THE NIGHT OF THANKSGIVING, BUT I COULDN'T SLEEP.
> >
> > I TRIED COUNTING BACKWARDS, I TRIED COUNTING SHEEP.
> >
> > THE LEFTOVERS BECKONED, THE DARK MEAT & WHITE.
> >
> > BUT I FOUGHT THE TEMPTATION WITH ALL MY MIGHT.
> >
> > TOSSING AND TURNING WITH ANTICIPATION
> >
> > THE THOUGHT OF A SNACK BECAME AN INFATUATION.
> >
> > SO I RACED TO THE KITCHEN, FLUNG OPEN THE DOOR
> >
> > AND GAZED AT THE FRIDGE, FULL OF GOODIES GALORE.
> >
> > I GOBBLED UP TURKEY AND BUTTERED POTATOES,
> >
> > PICKLES & CARROTS, BEANS & TOMATOES.
> >
> > I FELT MYSELF SWELLING SO PLUMP & SO ROUND.
> >
> > TILL ALL OF A SUDDEN, I ROSE OFF THE GROUND.
> >
> > I CRASHED THROUGH THE CEILING, FLOATING INTO THE SKY
> >
> > WITH A MOUTHFUL OF PUDDING AND HANDFUL OF PIE.
> >
> > BUT I MANAGED TO YELL AS I SOARED PAST THE TREES...
> >
> > HAPPY EATING TO ALL---PASS THE CRANBERRIES, PLEASE.
> >
> > MAY YOUR STUFFING BE TASTY, MAY YOUR TURKEY BE PLUMP,
> >
> > MAY YOUR POTATOES 'N GRAVY HAVE NARY A LUMP.
> >
> > MAY YOUR YAMS BE DELICIOUS, MAY YOUR PIES TAKE THE PRIZE.
> >
> > MAY YOUR THANKSGIVING DINNER STAY OFF YOUR THIGHS.
> >
> >
> >
> > MAY YOUR THANKSGIVING BE BLESSED!
> >
> >
>
>
3
>


Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:39:04 -0800
From: Ralph Johnson 
Subject: A little action here

 

By the time a man is wise enough to watch his step, he's too old to go 
anywhere.

 Doyal Gudgel




Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 06:16:07 -0800
From: Ralph Johnson 
Subject: Gudgel in the news

I didn't know this Gudgell was still at KOMO TV. Quite a few years ago I 
had made some effort to contact him to find out who his ancestors were 
but cant remember now if I made contact or found out who he is in that 
respect.   The article is strange in that it describes Mike Gudgell as a 
produce at KOMO and not a reporter.  I just wonder where the reporter 
was. Usually it is the reporter they contact.

Doyal Gudgel


In wake of 3 deaths, Stryker brigade records first successes

By MIKE BARBER 
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

As Army chaplains and support groups notified families yesterday of the 
first fatalities among Fort Lewis' Stryker brigade in Iraq, the unit 
recorded its first successes against insurgents.

In fact, part of the brigade took the Stryker's first prisoners 
yesterday when it surprised Iraqi insurgents who had intended to attack 
U.S. troops with a homemade road mine, ABC news reported. The brigade 
also raided a home nearby, confiscating a cache of rocket-propelled 
grenades, dynamite and mortars.

In a 24-hour period, ABC news producer Mike Gudgell, who works out of 
KOMO-TV in Seattle, reported that the Strykers have been shot at, 
mortared, lost three troops in a rollover accident and taken their first 
captives. Gudgell is embedded with the Stryker brigade, a new Army 
infantry unit in combat for the first time.

The brigade's fast new Stryker vehicle, quieter than the Bradley 
infantry carriers it replaced, is credited with sneaking up and 
capturing two Iraqis trying to tie together and bury two mortar tubes in 
the road. The homemade bombs are often set off remotely with a cell 
phone or door-opening device. But catching Iraqis in the act of planting 
them has been rare, Gudgell reported.

Army officials yesterday withheld the names of three Stryker soldiers 
who died Monday when a dike collapsed, rolling them over into a canal. 
The officials could not say how they died or give the condition of a 
fourth who was injured








From: "GinnyG" 
Subject: Fw: Hannah Gudgel Musick's daughter Nancy? 
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 01:04:06 -0600


Hello, I have enjoyed lurking on this list for sometime hoping to see a =
reference to a Nancy Musick b.ca1810.Have found Jesse Musick m. Hannah =
Gudgel, a daughter Nancy about the right age. Then Nancy m.Henry Mowry  =
at Gibson Co.In 1830. There were 4 children born Susannah b.1833 IN?, =
Elizabeth b.1838IN?, Hannah b.1840 IN?, William H.b.1844IN? (as shown on =
1850 census).Henry was present on 1840 census(GibsonCoIN) but Nancy =
m.John L.Smith 21Oct1845 then m.Caleb A.Huff 23Dec1847 at LoganCoIL and =
was on 1850 FountainCoIN census with Caleb, 4Mowry childen, 3Huff =
children and a 21 yr old John Huff who m.17yr old Susannah Mowry in Aug =
1850. Both couples returned to Logan CoIL (or Nancy  d. in IN =
)before1857. Caleb m. again in1857 at Logan CoIL  and are on 1860 =
census.
   A fire at Logan Co.Il courthouse prevents finding death or will =
documents.I do have copy of 1845 and 1847 marriages.
   Does anyone have any info on Nancy?
   Thank you in advance, Virginia Gleason
                                          ginnyg@springnet1.com






Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 05:12:09 -0800
From: Ralph Johnson 
Subject: No nativity scene in DC this Christmas.

The Supreme Court is said to have ruled that there cannot be a nativity scene in Washington, DC this Christmas.

This isn't for any religious constitutional reason at all. 
 
They simply have not been able to find three wise men and a virgin in the
nation's capitol.

There was no problem however, finding enough asses to fill the stable.
 




From: "nancy miller" 
To: "GinnyG" , 
Subject: Re: Hannah Gudgel Musick's daughter Nancy? 
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 21:28:19 -0800


Ginny
Since I have done some research on the MUSICK family, I will try and =
respond to your post, but Arliegh Birchler has done a lot more, and if =
he is still on the list, perhaps he will respond. =20

Yes, we know that there was a Nancy Musick who was about 9 years old at =
the time (June Court 1819) the late Jesse Musick's children were =
assigned guardians.  I have seen the record of a Henry Mowery marrying a =
Nancy Musick in Gibson County, IN on 7-27-1830.  But I also see a record =
of a Joseph H. Smith marrying a Nancy Musick 1-17-1829 also in Gibson =
Co.  I have not seen either the John L. Smith or the Caleb A. Huff =
marriages, though Arleigh had mentioned a marriage to a John Harmon in =
1828.  I believe that Arleigh felt there might have been two Nancy =
Musick's of about the same age, one perhaps born in IN and one in IL.

I do not find the children that you mention in the 1850 Gibson Co. =
census, but I do find two Mourie's that could be of the same family.  =
There is an Elen Mourie, 13 and a Robert Mourie, 17 in different =
households.  Does your 1840 census of Henry Mowry show him with more =
than the 4 children you found in Fountain County?

Are you descended from this Nancy Musick Smith Mowry Huff and if so, do =
you have any family information that would shed light on her marriages =
and children?

Sorry I can't help you any more.

Nancy Teel Miller

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: GinnyG=20
  To: gudgel-list@eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 11:04 PM
  Subject: Fw: Hannah Gudgel Musick's daughter Nancy?=20



  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: GinnyG=20
  To: gudgel- list@eskimo.com=20
  Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 12:33 AM
  Subject: Hannah Gudgel Musick's daughter Nancy?=20


  Hello, I have enjoyed lurking on this list for sometime hoping to see =
a reference to a Nancy Musick b.ca1810.Have found Jesse Musick m. Hannah =
Gudgel, a daughter Nancy about the right age. Then Nancy m.Henry Mowry  =
at Gibson Co.In 1830. There were 4 children born Susannah b.1833 IN?, =
Elizabeth b.1838IN?, Hannah b.1840 IN?, William H.b.1844IN? (as shown on =
1850 census).Henry was present on 1840 census(GibsonCoIN) but Nancy =
m.John L.Smith 21Oct1845 then m.Caleb A.Huff 23Dec1847 at LoganCoIL and =
was on 1850 FountainCoIN census with Caleb, 4Mowry childen, 3Huff =
children and a 21 yr old John Huff who m.17yr old Susannah Mowry in Aug =
1850. Both couples returned to Logan CoIL (or Nancy  d. in IN =
)before1857. Caleb m. again in1857 at Logan CoIL  and are on 1860 =
census.
     A fire at Logan Co.Il courthouse prevents finding death or will =
documents.I do have copy of 1845 and 1847 marriages.
     Does anyone have any info on Nancy?
     Thank you in advance, Virginia Gleason
                                            ginnyg@springnet1.com










From: "arleigh birchler" 
Cc: musickfamily@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Logan County Musick's
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 23:42:27 -0600

Bill Stephenson and Nancy Teel,

A fellow who is apparently new to the Family Musick Association has a lot of 
information about Samuel, Herrod, and Abraham Musick of Logan County.  He 
would like to contact you.  May I give him your email address?  His name is 
Greg Volk.


Arleigh Birchler
Musick/Porter Fan Club
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MusickPorter/
1718 Fisher St #2
Madison  WI   53713
(608)251-4437

Note:  Please let me know if you got on this list by mistake.  I try hard to 
keep from sending mail to people who don't want it.  I sometimes add names 
to my address book, and then am not aware that they are still there.   RLB

From: "arleigh birchler" 
To: nteel@lightspeed.net
Cc: the.volks@comcast.net, musickfamily@yahoogroups.com,
Subject: Re: Logan County Musick's
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 12:04:10 -0600

Nancy,

This will give both you and Greg Volk each other's email addresses.  I'm not 
sure if you are on the Musick List, or only on the Gudgel.  Greg feels that 
the Abraham Musick who married Annie Allen may have been the son of Samuel 
Musick, son of David, son of Elixious, son of George.  Needless to say, 
there were some women involved in all that begetting.

I've always taken it as gospel that Annie's husband was the brother of my 
ancestor, John Musick, and the son of Jessie and Hannah.  I know Greg would 
be interested in anything you can give him on the Gibson County court papers 
about the orphans of Jesse Musick and their guardian, James Stewart.  (I 
understand that in those days a child with only one parent was properly 
referred to as an orphan.)

Many moons ago Donald G Musick forwarded a URL with a request for 
information on a Nancy Musick who lived in Gibson County and Logan County.  
She did not match any of the Nancy's I am familiar with, but there are a 
couple of Mystery Nancy Musick's in Logan County records.  I'm not sure if 
this is in any way connected to Asa Musick or Samuel Musick.  I have no idea 
where Fountain County is.


Arleigh



>From: "nancy miller" 
>To: "arleigh birchler" 
>Subject: Re: Logan County Musick's
>Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 22:07:01 -0800
>
>Arleigh
>Yes, go ahead and give him my e-mail address.
>
>Do you have any more information for the lady on Nancy Musick?  That
>Fountain County, IN location was a new one on me.
>
>Nancy
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "arleigh birchler" 
>To: 
>Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 9:48 PM
>Subject: FW: Logan County Musick's
>
>
> > Nancy,
> >
> > By some strange twist of synchronistic logic, I received your message
> > immediately after sending the following.  Can you help Greg?
> >





From: GinnyG=20
To: dianne@corecom.net=20
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 12:34 PM
Subject: re: Hannah Gudgel Musick's daughter


Dianne, thank you for your message.=20
      I live in Logan Co.IL. Trying to find Nancy??Mowry Smith Huff's =
parents. If she was Jesse and Hannah Gudgel Musick's daughter. I might =
be related to  the Gudgel Family. My Nancy did have a daughter named =
Hannah.
     I am new to typing , computers, and genealogy but have met many =
nice helpful people while doing my research. Thanks again, Ginny





From: "Ed Gudgel" 
To: 
Subject: Merry Christmas from Loida
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 14:55:07 -0500

hi! the weather outside is lovely - only in high 70's but sunny with =
lovely clouds..Xmas songs at Cypress Cove at  one PM and xmas eve at =
church tonight. My sister Carol near Buffalo has snow and so does my =
boys and daughters in PA' NJ, Washington DC and Mass. Hope all is well =
with the Gudgel Clan. Is Mike Gudgel in Iraq on email? Do we have anyone =
else there Now?  Have a great new year ! Ed Gudgel Fort Myers, FL





From: "gardner gudgel" 
Subject: Seasons Greetings
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 18:23:18 -0800

Season Greetings to all my cousins throughout the world. We got 11 =
inches of snow last night so we are having a White Christmas. Gerald =
Gudgel Family, Tonasket, Washington





From: "Lynn Hammond" 
Subject: merry Christmas
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 20:17:49 -0800

Merry Christmas from the Hammonds (Lynn Gudgel Hammond) and Happy New Year




From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: Holiday Greetings
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:58:04 -0500

To my Treasured and Cherished family-

Just thinking of all my blessings on this early Christmas morning and =
wanted to wish all my GUDGEL(L) cousins a Happy Holiday.=20

I also want to ask you to say a prayer for my oldest daughter, Gina.  =
She is leaving today (Christmas Day) for a 10 day trip to Ireland, =
England, Belguim and France.
I know you've all heard the news about the terrorist threats and even =
some flights being cancelled with Air France.  I'm just really concerned =
for her safety.  She is going with a girlfriend who is also a teacher.  =
Gina planned this trip a year ago and it is much deserved as she has =
pushed hard to finish her degree with no real time off for a long while. =
 We're trying not to worry but it's hard when the news is full of all =
kinds of reports.  She will leave Louisville tomorrow and go to Chicago, =
then straight through to London (Heathrow).

Will keep you posted.

May 2004 be the year we find all of our long lost ancestors!  Merry =
Christmas to all.

Linda Gudgel Finnell
from Kentucky

Snowing here now......It is a white Christmas after all!!





Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:27:51 -0900
From: Dianne Holmes 
Subject: holidays from the north

Dear Cyber Cousins,
    Wishing you a SLOW holiday so you can enjoy each other.

We have had tons of snow this yr so far and temps to keep it 
around--unlike last yr. Cross country skiing has been wonderful and 
tomorrow I hope to get the family out on snow shoes as the woods are so 
pretty. Don't know if I can manage to get my husband, Chuck, out or not, 
but we did rent snowshoes for everyone.

Unfortunately the temps will drop a lot for a few days, like maybe minus 
10 F at night. But when the temps are low there is more of a chance to 
see the aurora borealis AND the sun in the day is VERY bright which 
makes taking photos of the snow on the trees fund.

Happiness is having a good furnace, a garage door opener (and garage) at 
minus 10.
Dianne Gudgel-Holmes

PS We are gaining sunlight again--by 20 seconds a day or so. Soon we 
will be gaining 5 minutes of sunlight each day until June 21st.



From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: The Twelve days of a Genealogists Christmas
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 14:08:56 -0500

This seemed very appropriate for this group!
Merry Christmas to all, 

Linda

     THE TWELVE DAYS OF A GENEALOGIST'S CHRISTMAS
> 
> On the Twelfth Day of Christmas 
> My true love gave to me. 
> Twelve census searches, 
> Eleven printer ribbons, 
> Ten e-mail contacts, 
> Nine headstone rubbings, 
> Eight birth and death dates, 
> Seven town clerks sighing, 
> Six-second cousins, 
> Five coats of arms, 
> Four GEDCOM files, 
> Three old wills, 
> Two CD-ROMs, 
> And a branch in my family tree. 
> 
> Author Unknown
> 
> 
> 
From: aap109@webtv.net
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 07:18:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas to all my Gudgel friends and relatives.  It is a
sunshiny, 40 degree day in Quincy, Illinois.  Happy hunting in 2004!

Ardath Potts





From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: Daughter's travels
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:51:33 -0500

Hi Folks-
Today I finally did hear from my daughter, Gina, who left Christmas Day for
her 10 day trip to England, France, Belguim and Ireland.  I will be the
first to admit I am a worrying mother.  Just can't help it.  She arrived
safely and is apparently having a wonderful time and filling every day with
as much as they can see..  Thank you for your prayers and words of
assurance.

Just to give you an idea of what she is doing, here is a clip from her
email:

> Hello from LONDON!


> I just wanted to say 'Cheers' from London.  We arrived ahead of schedule
yesterday morning..about 7:30 here..about 2:30 your time.  The weather has
been typical we are told...kind of chilly in the 40's and 50's...and rainy.
We've had a great time anyway!  After catching a nap yesterday (long flight)
we took the tube (underground rail system) to Picadilly Circus in Central
London.  They were having a Carnival..so we enjoyed that and took lots of
fun pictures.  We had a traditional English dinner--fish and chips--at one
of the restaurants there.  We went to the London Palace Theatre and saw Les
Miserable...that was sensational!
>
> Today, we saw the British Parliment House and Big Ben (it was just like
National Lampoons European Vacation--''look kids Big Ben.. Parliment''!).
Westminster Abby was beautiful!  Then saw the Tower of London and
Shakespere's Globe Theatre..that's been the coolest thing.  We got to see
where Prince Charles sat during the summer performance.    We crossed the
Millenium Bridge to see the London Bridge.
>
> The US dollar is very weak.  We lose about half when we exchange our
money.  So things are very expensive..  a cab ride last night was
£20...about 40 US dollars!
>
> Tomorrow we leave for Brussels, then off to Paris.  Feel free to email me
back..i'll check it periodically!!
> Love, Gina

**BTW, We are dog-sitting Gina's dog, Raven, a 2 year old black lab.  He's
huge!  A very good dog but he's very inquisitive and full of energy.  I call
him my four-legged grandchild.  Can leap over the back of the couch too.
It's gonna' be a long 10 days I think.  What we do for our children!

Will keep you posted.
Linda,
from Kentucky




From: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" 
Subject: 2004 GUDGEL Reunion in Kentucky
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 19:49:16 -0500

Hi Folks-

Okayy, Christmas is over and I am now getting into the beginning stages =
of planning this GUDGEL Reunion in Kentucky.  I need to set a date so I =
need some input from you folks about when you want to have this.  The =
2002 GUDGEL Reunion in Gibson Co., IN was held the first weekend in =
October (October 4th I think).  It was great weather.  I got a card from =
John and Ardath Potts (thanks guys!) and I beleive they have a =
committment for October 8th already so that's not good for them.

Kentucky weather in the fall is wonderful as a rule.  As far as colors =
of the foilage- that won't be till about late October and that may be =
too late for a lot of folks.
So give me some input.  If time allows I hope to take this group to a =
first class thoughbred farm for a tour also.  You can't come to KY and =
not see one of those!
The reunion will be a weekend event just as before I suppose.

I have to encourage those who didn't make it in 2002 for various reasons =
to make every effort to meet your cousins.  You won't regret it.  And =
those who did make it be sure and express your feelings about the 2002 =
event.


The main things we might want to do while folks are here are:
Priority:
Visit to Glen's Creek where old Andrew had his mill site.
Visit to GUDGEL Cemetery and Alton Cemetery in Anderson Co. (about 15 =
minutes away).  Burial site for Elijah, Sr., Jacob. Jr. and families.  =
Maybe have a clean up day/picnic event)
Visit to the awesome Kentucky History Center-see old Andrew's Memorial =
brick (and if time allows maybe some free time to research or see the =
museum).

Secondary:
Visit a first class Thoroughbred Farm.  (I worked in the business a =
number of years so I still have some contacts, I hope).

Or, you guys tell me what you want to do.  I am open for suggestions.  =
And in the evenings we can always meet to discuss/share our research at =
the hotel.=20
I know it will be hard to top what Juanita and Reba did in 2002.  I =
won't even try but I hope you will enjoy yourselves and come away with a =
feeling of pride in our ancestors and in having met some of our kinfolk.

I look forward to hearing from you and will let you know as soon as a =
date is set.

>From Linda
in Kentucky

Raining tonight.  No snow on the ground- but I'm sure it's coming!!





From: "Stephen Gudgel" <932762318@terra.es>
To: "Linda Gudgel Finnell" ,
Subject: Re: 2004 GUDGEL Reunion in Kentucky
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 04:02:30 +0100

Hi Linda,

Just a quick note.  For many people who aren't retired, summer might be =
the only vacation time they have.  For any who are teachers in the =
traditional system, that is surely the case.  I personally cannot attend =
anything that isn't in July or August.  Weather is an interesting =
consideration, but some of us can never take vacation in the fall, =
winter (except for Xmas), or spring.  I tend to think you'll find the =
largest number are free in the summer, but I'm not sure.  My sister =
Connie and I were hoping to attend if it is in the summer, and perhaps =
my sister Sherrill too.

Stephen
Barcelona, Spain.


  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Linda Gudgel Finnell=20
  To: Gudgel List=20
  Sent: dimarts, 30 / desembre / 2003 01:49
  Subject: 2004 GUDGEL Reunion in Kentucky


  Hi Folks-

  Okayy, Christmas is over and I am now getting into the beginning =
stages of planning this GUDGEL Reunion in Kentucky.  I need to set a =
date so I need some input from you folks about when you want to have =
this.  The 2002 GUDGEL Reunion in Gibson Co., IN was held the first =
weekend in October (October 4th I think).  It was great weather.  I got =
a card from John and Ardath Potts (thanks guys!) and I beleive they have =
a committment for October 8th already so that's not good for them.

  Kentucky weather in the fall is wonderful as a rule.  As far as colors =
of the foilage- that won't be till about late October and that may be =
too late for a lot of folks.
  So give me some input.  If time allows I hope to take this group to a =
first class thoughbred farm for a tour also.  You can't come to KY and =
not see one of those!
  The reunion will be a weekend event just as before I suppose.

  I have to encourage those who didn't make it in 2002 for various =
reasons to make every effort to meet your cousins.  You won't regret it. =
 And those who did make it be sure and express your feelings about the =
2002 event.


  The main things we might want to do while folks are here are:
  Priority:
  Visit to Glen's Creek where old Andrew had his mill site.
  Visit to GUDGEL Cemetery and Alton Cemetery in Anderson Co. (about 15 =
minutes away).  Burial site for Elijah, Sr., Jacob. Jr. and families.  =
Maybe have a clean up day/picnic event)
  Visit to the awesome Kentucky History Center-see old Andrew's Memorial =
brick (and if time allows maybe some free time to research or see the =
museum).

  Secondary:
  Visit a first class Thoroughbred Farm.  (I worked in the business a =
number of years so I still have some contacts, I hope).

  Or, you guys tell me what you want to do.  I am open for suggestions.  =
And in the evenings we can always meet to discuss/share our research at =
the hotel.=20
  I know it will be hard to top what Juanita and Reba did in 2002.  I =
won't even try but I hope you will enjoy yourselves and come away with a =
feeling of pride in our ancestors and in having met some of our kinfolk.

  I look forward to hearing from you and will let you know as soon as a =
date is set.

  From Linda
  in Kentucky

  Raining tonight.  No snow on the ground- but I'm sure it's coming!!






From: "Juanita Diorio" 
Subject: Reunion Plans
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 12:03:22 -0500

Happy New Year, Cousins!

Linda, I'm so happy that you are getting plans underway for another =
Gudgel Gathering!  I'll add my thoughts about the date for the event. =20

I don't think there is a perfect time for everyone, unfortunately.  What =
I found two years ago was that planning it on a weekend gave the =
opportunity for those who have jobs to make arrangements to come.  (You =
were one of those.)  Some took off work a few hours early in order to =
drive or fly to Princeton, IN for our late Friday afternoon meeting =
time.  If the event is planned during the summer, we run the risk of =
interfering with family vacations.  Also, we may find our visit to =
cemeteries and other locales uncomfortably warm in summer.  Fall usually =
brings some very pleasant weather for our outdoor activities.  There may =
be a need to take into consideration the best time at the places that we =
are visiting.  For example,  for our visit to the original Gudgel Farm =
Cemetery, we checked with those now farming the land. =20

I hope many will respond with the time they prefer so that as many as =
possible will be able to come.  My vote is for a Fall weekend.   I don't =
want to miss it --it's a fantastic experience!  Thanks, Linda!

Juanita Gudgel Diorio





From: "arleigh birchler" 
To: abirchler16@yahoo.com
Cc: wisclifechoice@hotmail.com
Subject: Change of address
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 19:19:50 -0600

Folks,

I am about to close this Hotmail account.  This is going out to my most 
intimate friends, and folks I just met on the Internet long ago.  My new 
addresses will be:

wisclifechoice@hotmail.com
abirchler16@yahoo.com



Arleigh Birchler
Musick/Porter Fan Club
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MusickPorter/
1718 Fisher St #2
Madison  WI   53713
(608)251-4437

Note:  Please let me know if you got on this list by mistake.  I try hard to 
keep from sending mail to people who don't want it.  I sometimes add names 
to my address book, and then am not aware that they are still there.   RLB


Folks,

I am about to close this Hotmail account.  This is going out to my most 
intimate friends, and folks I just met on the Internet long ago.  My new 
addresses will be:

wisclifechoice@hotmail.com
abirchler16@yahoo.com



Arleigh Birchler
Musick/Porter Fan Club
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MusickPorter/
1718 Fisher St #2
Madison  WI   53713
(608)251-4437

Note:  Please let me know if you got on this list by mistake.  I try hard to 
keep from sending mail to people who don't want it.  I sometimes add names 
to my address book, and then am not aware that they are still there.   RLB




From: "Connie Phillips" 
To: "Gudgel cousins" 
Subject: Family Reunion
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 23:15:50 -0500

Dear Linda,

        We would love to come to the family reunion and hope it works =
out this year.  We usually drive to Illinois to visit my family in the =
summer when my brother Steve is state side, so of course it would be =
easier for us to be able to stop in Kentucky either going to Illinois or =
coming back to Florida. The last reunion fell right after our return =
home so we could not attend.
         I know you have many things to work out on your end and I =
appreciate that so please just keep us informed on the majority choice =
and we will make our plans accordingly and sure try our best to attend.  =


        Connie Phillips

(Weather here today-80....and beautiful.  Way above normal for January =
first, but I am not complaining.  I just hope the weather continues to =
be warm until my Mother and sister Sherrill arrive at the end of January =
so they can also enjoy..)
   =20




From: "GinnyG" 
Subject: Nancy Musick ?? daughter of Hannah Gudgel ??
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 02:17:23 -0600

Hello Gudgel group, I am looking for parents of Nancy Musick b. ca1814 =
in Indiana, m. Henry Mowry/Mowery 27July1830 at Gibson Co.IN. The 1840 =
Gibson Co.census shows Henry 30-40, female 20-30, 2F. under 5, 1F.5-10. =
Nancy m. John Smith 21Oct1845 and then Caleb Huff 23Dec1847 in Logan =
Co.IL. But on the back of the marriage record is a notation ( Smith vs =
Smith Filed- 20Mar1848) signed I or J Calhoun,clerk. In 1850 Caleb, =
Nancy, 1yr old John Huff,4 Mowry children, and2 other Huff children are =
on Fountain Co.IN census. The ages of the females match the 1840 census.
      By 1860 Caleb, 3 Huff children, and wife Lydia Vaughn Murry are in =
Logan Co.IL. Did Nancy die,if so where? I wonder if Nancy could be the =
daughter of Jesse and Hannah Gudgel. Does this match any Nancy Musick =
known to the group? TIA


                                                                         =
From: "GinnyG" 
Subject: Read Receipt
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:35:41 -0600

Dear Gudgel Group,
I apologize. I am new to computers and geneology, was not aware the =
receipt box was checked. It is now unchecked and I learned something new =
today. Thanks to everyone for your replies.  ginnyg@springnet1.com