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Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2007 21:55:01 +0200
From: "David Jonsson" <david@djk.se>
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Subject: [Vo]: Constructing ideal aircraft cross sections
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The cross section of a fast flying machine should not be constant. It should
vary in a way to minimize dispersion in the motion of the air. Someone here
on the list could probably design a proper form. The problem is not very
different from electrical or optical signal design where dispersion is a
problem too. In these cases the signals are designed to have narrow band.
Aircraft are of a bad design in these regards.

Timofeev tried to balance dispersion with non linear effects but any other
mean would serve as well. This could explain why Russian aircraft have a
narrow waist. This is a hull shape adaption to minimize dispersion.

One way to lower dispersion is to make the signal use a more narrow
bandwidth. this means that the moving body should vary in diameter like the
middle pictures in this image
http://cnx.org/content/m0041/latest/fourier4.png
By skipping the higher bandwidth components the physical situation becomes
easier to handle. This is verified in observation like golf balls and sharks
where the surface is corrugated.

David

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<div>The cross section of a fast flying machine should not be constant. It should vary in a way to minimize dispersion in the motion of the air. Someone here on the list could probably design a proper form. The problem is not very different from electrical or optical signal design where dispersion is a problem too. In these cases the signals are designed to have narrow band. Aircraft are of a bad design in these regards.
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Timofeev tried to balance dispersion with non linear effects but any other mean would serve as well. This could explain why Russian aircraft have a narrow waist. This is a hull shape adaption to minimize dispersion.
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>One way to lower dispersion is to make the signal use a more narrow bandwidth. this means that the moving body should vary in diameter like the middle pictures in this image</div>
<div><a href="http://cnx.org/content/m0041/latest/fourier4.png">http://cnx.org/content/m0041/latest/fourier4.png</a></div>
<div>By skipping the higher bandwidth components the physical situation becomes easier to handle. This is verified in observation like golf balls and sharks where the surface is corrugated. </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>David</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>

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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 02:28:46 2007
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Subject: [Vo]: Re:   Langmuir Missed Cold Fusion Adatoms
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Had Langmuir been familiar with D2-Palladium in 1932, who knows?

He's all around it in this 1932 (39 page pdf) lecture on surface phenomena

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1932/langmuir-lecture.pdf

Fred
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">Had Langmuir been familiar with D2-Palladium in 1932, who knows?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">He's all around it in this 1932 (39 page pdf) lecture on surface phenomena</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"><A href="http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1932/langmuir-lecture.pdf">http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1932/langmuir-lecture.pdf</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">Fred</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 03:31:12 2007
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
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Jones Beene wrote:

Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are here to stay. 


> Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food. 
>
> - Jed

http://www.pnm.com/news/2006/073106_biomass.htm

"Albuquerque: PNM and Western Water and Power Production have signed a 20-year agreement to deliver renewable energy from a new 35 megawatt biomass power plant. The plant will go into service in early 2009 and will be located in Torrance County, near Estancia, N.M. The plant will be sited on 50 acres adjacent to Tagawa Greenhouses, which will utilize waste heat from the facility to heat the greenhouse and potentially increase production".

More.

http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18138/page1/

"Relatively high oil prices, advances in technology, and the Bush administration's increased emphasis on renewable fuels are attracting new interest in a potentially rich source of biofuels: algae. A number of startups are now demonstrating new technology and launching large research efforts aimed at replacing hundreds of millions of gallons of fossil fuels by 2010, and much more in the future. 
Algae makes oil naturally. Raw algae can be processed to make biocrude, the renewable equivalent of petroleum, and refined to make gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, and chemical feedstocks for plastics and drugs. Indeed, it can be processed at existing oil refineries to make just about anything that can be made from crude oil. This is the approach being taken by startups Solix Biofuels, based in Fort Collins, CO, and LiveFuels, based in Menlo Park, CA. 
Alternatively, strains of algae that produce more carbohydrates and less oil can be processed and fermented to make ethanol, with leftover proteins used for animal feed. This is one of the potential uses of algae produced by startup GreenFuel Technologies Corporation, based in Cambridge, MA."
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2006-01-10-algae-powerplants_x.htm
"Even though it's early yet, and may be a long shot, "the technology is quite fascinating," says Barry Worthington, executive director of US Energy Association in Washington, which represents electric utilities, government agencies, and the oil and gas industry.
One key is selecting an algae with a high oil density  about 50% of its weight. Because this kind of algae also grows so fast, it can produce 15,000 gallons of biodiesel per acre. Just 60 gallons are produced from soybeans, which along with corn are the major biodiesel crops today.
Greenfuel isn't alone in the algae-to-oil race. Last month, Greenshift Corporation, a Mount Arlington, N.J., technology incubator company, licensed CO2-gobbling algae technology that uses a screen-like algal filter. It was developed by David Bayless, a researcher at Ohio University."
http://www.greenfuelonline.com/press_releases.htm
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<DIV><FONT size=3><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"><TT><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"><STRONG>Jones Beene wrote:</STRONG></FONT></TT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"><STRONG><TT><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"></FONT></TT></STRONG></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"><STRONG><TT><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are </FONT></TT><TT><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">here to stay.</FONT> </TT></STRONG></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE style="MARGIN: 0em"><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></PRE>
<DIV><TT><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"><FONT size=3><TT><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"><STRONG>&gt; Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on planet </STRONG></FONT></TT><TT><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"><STRONG>Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food.</STRONG></FONT> </TT></FONT></FONT></DIV><PRE style="MARGIN: 0em"><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=3>&gt;</FONT></PRE><PRE style="MARGIN: 0em"><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=3>&gt; - Jed</FONT></PRE></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"><A href="http://www.pnm.com/news/2006/073106_biomass.htm">http://www.pnm.com/news/2006/073106_biomass.htm</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"><STRONG>"Albuquerque:</STRONG> PNM and Western Water and Power Production have signed a 20-year agreement to deliver renewable energy from a new 35 megawatt biomass power plant. The plant will go into service in early 2009 and will be located in Torrance County, near Estancia, N.M. The plant will be sited on 50 acres adjacent to Tagawa Greenhouses, which will utilize waste heat from the facility to heat the greenhouse and potentially increase production".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">More.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18138/page1/"><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18138/page1/</FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">"Relatively high oil prices, advances in technology, and the Bush administration's increased emphasis on renewable fuels are attracting new interest in a potentially rich source of biofuels: algae. A number of startups are now demonstrating new technology and launching large research efforts aimed at replacing hundreds of millions of gallons of fossil fuels by 2010, and much more in the future. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">Algae makes oil naturally. Raw algae can be processed to make biocrude, the renewable equivalent of petroleum, and refined to make gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, and chemical feedstocks for plastics and drugs. Indeed, it can be processed at existing oil refineries to make just about anything that can be made from crude oil. This is the approach being taken by startups Solix Biofuels, based in Fort Collins, CO, and LiveFuels, based in Menlo Park, CA. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">Alternatively, strains of algae that produce more carbohydrates and less oil can be processed and fermented to make ethanol, with leftover proteins used for animal feed. This is one of the potential uses of algae produced by startup GreenFuel Technologies Corporation, based in Cambridge, MA."</FONT></P>
<P><A href="http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2006-01-10-algae-powerplants_x.htm"><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2006-01-10-algae-powerplants_x.htm</FONT></A></P>
<P class=inside-copy><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">"Even though it's early yet, and may be a long shot, "the technology is quite fascinating," says Barry Worthington, executive director of US Energy Association in Washington, which represents electric utilities, government agencies, and the oil and gas industry.</FONT></P>
<P class=inside-copy><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">One key is selecting an algae with a high oil density  about 50% of its weight. Because this kind of algae also grows so fast, it can produce 15,000 gallons of biodiesel per acre. Just 60 gallons are produced from soybeans, which along with corn are the major biodiesel crops today.</FONT></P>
<P class=inside-copy><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">Greenfuel isn't alone in the algae-to-oil race. Last month, Greenshift Corporation, a Mount Arlington, N.J., technology incubator company, licensed CO2-gobbling algae technology that uses a screen-like algal filter. It was developed by David Bayless, a researcher at Ohio University."</FONT></P>
<P><A href="http://www.greenfuelonline.com/press_releases.htm"><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">http://www.greenfuelonline.com/press_releases.htm</FONT></A></P></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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http://www.aps.com/general_info/newsrelease/newsreleases/NewsRelease_358.html

November 30, 2006 
Phoenix, AZ  -   
Algae bioreactor system connected directly to smokestack of APS' Redhawk 1,040 megawatt power plant recycles greenhouse gases into renewable biofuels
PHOENIX, Ariz. and Cambridge Mass. - Arizona Public Service Company (APS) and GreenFuel Technologies Corporation have announced that they have successfully recycled the carbon dioxide (CO2) from the stack gases of a power plant into transportation grade biofuels. The announcement was made at the Platts Global Energy Awards ceremonies today in New York. Using GreenFuel's Emissions-to-Biofuels algae bioreactor system connected to APS' 1,040 megawatt Redhawk power plant in Arlington, Ariz., GreenFuel was able to create a carbon-rich algal biomass with sufficient quality and concentration of oils and starch content to be converted into transportation-grade biodiesel and ethanol.
"We estimate that this process can absorb as much as 80 percent of CO2 emissions during the daytime at a natural gas fired power plant," said GreenFuel CEO Cary Bullock. "Unlike typical agricultural biofuel feedstocks such as soybeans or corn which have a limited harvest window, algae multiply every hour can be harvested every day."

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Frederick Sparber 
To: vortex-l
Sent: 4/2/2007 4:31:32 AM 
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza


Jones Beene wrote:

Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are here to stay. 


> Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food. 
>
> - Jed

http://www.pnm.com/news/2006/073106_biomass.htm

"Albuquerque: PNM and Western Water and Power Production have signed a 20-year agreement to deliver renewable energy from a new 35 megawatt biomass power plant. The plant will go into service in early 2009 and will be located in Torrance County, near Estancia, N.M. The plant will be sited on 50 acres adjacent to Tagawa Greenhouses, which will utilize waste heat from the facility to heat the greenhouse and potentially increase production".

More.

http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18138/page1/

"Relatively high oil prices, advances in technology, and the Bush administration's increased emphasis on renewable fuels are attracting new interest in a potentially rich source of biofuels: algae. A number of startups are now demonstrating new technology and launching large research efforts aimed at replacing hundreds of millions of gallons of fossil fuels by 2010, and much more in the future. 
Algae makes oil naturally. Raw algae can be processed to make biocrude, the renewable equivalent of petroleum, and refined to make gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, and chemical feedstocks for plastics and drugs. Indeed, it can be processed at existing oil refineries to make just about anything that can be made from crude oil. This is the approach being taken by startups Solix Biofuels, based in Fort Collins, CO, and LiveFuels, based in Menlo Park, CA. 
Alternatively, strains of algae that produce more carbohydrates and less oil can be processed and fermented to make ethanol, with leftover proteins used for animal feed. This is one of the potential uses of algae produced by startup GreenFuel Technologies Corporation, based in Cambridge, MA."
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2006-01-10-algae-powerplants_x.htm
"Even though it's early yet, and may be a long shot, "the technology is quite fascinating," says Barry Worthington, executive director of US Energy Association in Washington, which represents electric utilities, government agencies, and the oil and gas industry.
One key is selecting an algae with a high oil density  about 50% of its weight. Because this kind of algae also grows so fast, it can produce 15,000 gallons of biodiesel per acre. Just 60 gallons are produced from soybeans, which along with corn are the major biodiesel crops today.
Greenfuel isn't alone in the algae-to-oil race. Last month, Greenshift Corporation, a Mount Arlington, N.J., technology incubator company, licensed CO2-gobbling algae technology that uses a screen-like algal filter. It was developed by David Bayless, a researcher at Ohio University."
http://www.greenfuelonline.com/press_releases.htm
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<DIV><A href="http://www.aps.com/general_info/newsrelease/newsreleases/NewsRelease_358.html"><FONT size=3><STRONG>http://www.aps.com/general_info/newsrelease/newsreleases/NewsRelease_358.html</STRONG></FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>November 30, 2006 </STRONG></FONT>
<P><FONT size=3><STRONG>Phoenix, AZ&nbsp; - &nbsp; </STRONG></FONT>
<P><EM><FONT size=3><STRONG>Algae bioreactor system connected directly to smokestack of APS' Redhawk 1,040 megawatt power plant recycles greenhouse gases into renewable biofuels</STRONG></FONT></EM></P>
<P><FONT size=3><STRONG>PHOENIX, Ariz. and Cambridge Mass. - Arizona Public Service Company (APS) and GreenFuel Technologies Corporation have announced that they have successfully recycled the carbon dioxide (CO2) from the stack gases of a power plant into transportation grade biofuels. The announcement was made at the Platts Global Energy Awards ceremonies today in New York. Using GreenFuel's Emissions-to-Biofuels algae bioreactor system connected to APS' 1,040 megawatt Redhawk power plant in Arlington, Ariz., GreenFuel was able to create a carbon-rich algal biomass with sufficient quality and concentration of oils and starch content to be converted into transportation-grade biodiesel and ethanol.</STRONG></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>"We estimate that this process can absorb as much as 80 percent of CO2 emissions during the daytime at a natural gas fired power plant," said GreenFuel CEO Cary Bullock. "Unlike typical agricultural biofuel feedstocks such as soybeans or corn which have a limited harvest window, algae multiply every hour can be harvested every day."</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fjsparber@earthlink.net href="mailto:fjsparber@earthlink.net">Frederick Sparber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l@eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 4/2/2007 4:31:32 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=2>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 0.85em; MARGIN: 0em; BORDER-LEFT: #5555ee 0.2em solid">
<DIV><FONT size=3><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"><TT><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"><STRONG>Jones Beene wrote:</STRONG></FONT></TT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"><STRONG><TT><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"></FONT></TT></STRONG></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"><STRONG><TT><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are </FONT></TT><TT><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">here to stay.</FONT> </TT></STRONG></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE style="MARGIN: 0em"><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></PRE>
<DIV><TT><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=3><STRONG></STRONG></FONT></TT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"><FONT size=3><TT><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"><STRONG>&gt; Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on planet </STRONG></FONT></TT><TT><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"><STRONG>Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food.</STRONG></FONT> </TT></FONT></FONT></DIV><PRE style="MARGIN: 0em"><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=3>&gt;</FONT></PRE><PRE style="MARGIN: 0em"><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=3>&gt; - Jed</FONT></PRE></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"><A href="http://www.pnm.com/news/2006/073106_biomass.htm">http://www.pnm.com/news/2006/073106_biomass.htm</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"><STRONG>"Albuquerque:</STRONG> PNM and Western Water and Power Production have signed a 20-year agreement to deliver renewable energy from a new 35 megawatt biomass power plant. The plant will go into service in early 2009 and will be located in Torrance County, near Estancia, N.M. The plant will be sited on 50 acres adjacent to Tagawa Greenhouses, which will utilize waste heat from the facility to heat the greenhouse and potentially increase production".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">More.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18138/page1/"><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18138/page1/</FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">"Relatively high oil prices, advances in technology, and the Bush administration's increased emphasis on renewable fuels are attracting new interest in a potentially rich source of biofuels: algae. A number of startups are now demonstrating new technology and launching large research efforts aimed at replacing hundreds of millions of gallons of fossil fuels by 2010, and much more in the future. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">Algae makes oil naturally. Raw algae can be processed to make biocrude, the renewable equivalent of petroleum, and refined to make gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, and chemical feedstocks for plastics and drugs. Indeed, it can be processed at existing oil refineries to make just about anything that can be made from crude oil. This is the approach being taken by startups Solix Biofuels, based in Fort Collins, CO, and LiveFuels, based in Menlo Park, CA. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif"></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">Alternatively, strains of algae that produce more carbohydrates and less oil can be processed and fermented to make ethanol, with leftover proteins used for animal feed. This is one of the potential uses of algae produced by startup GreenFuel Technologies Corporation, based in Cambridge, MA."</FONT></P>
<P><A href="http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2006-01-10-algae-powerplants_x.htm"><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2006-01-10-algae-powerplants_x.htm</FONT></A></P>
<P class=inside-copy><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">"Even though it's early yet, and may be a long shot, "the technology is quite fascinating," says Barry Worthington, executive director of US Energy Association in Washington, which represents electric utilities, government agencies, and the oil and gas industry.</FONT></P>
<P class=inside-copy><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">One key is selecting an algae with a high oil density  about 50% of its weight. Because this kind of algae also grows so fast, it can produce 15,000 gallons of biodiesel per acre. Just 60 gallons are produced from soybeans, which along with corn are the major biodiesel crops today.</FONT></P>
<P class=inside-copy><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">Greenfuel isn't alone in the algae-to-oil race. Last month, Greenshift Corporation, a Mount Arlington, N.J., technology incubator company, licensed CO2-gobbling algae technology that uses a screen-like algal filter. It was developed by David Bayless, a researcher at Ohio University."</FONT></P>
<P><A href="http://www.greenfuelonline.com/press_releases.htm"><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif">http://www.greenfuelonline.com/press_releases.htm</FONT></A></P></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
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When  reading these reports I notice "press release" at the end. Why do =
I get a mental picture of a cow with several "sucklins" feeding off her =
in a pasture around Menlo Park or Cambridge?

Maybe it's because our local coal fired power plant ( Sam Seymour =
plant,one of 25 of the worse in USA) kept promising to install stack =
cleanup for decades and now they are rumored to "retire" the unit in =
favor of two new coal fired units that will "absolutely positively" have =
no stack emissions... honest Injun, trust me, would I lie. highest =
priced hired public relations top guns of the State of Texas.

Had our local beer drinker at the Dime Box saloon run the numbers on =
Bio-fuels.. yep!.. net increase in available fuel delivered after =
accounting for fuel and combined energy used in producing the Bio-fuel.. =
zero, zilch !!=20

Once was an itinerant peddler used to come thru town peddling cake soap =
made from sawdust.. never made but one sale. Once was all it took, like =
the girl that accidently spread her skirts and sat in poison ivy.

Richard

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<HTML style=3D"FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>When&nbsp; reading these reports I notice =
"press=20
release" at the end. Why do I get&nbsp;a mental picture of a cow with =
several=20
"sucklins" feeding off her in a pasture around Menlo Park or=20
Cambridge?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Maybe it's because our local coal fired power =
plant (=20
Sam Seymour plant,one of 25 of the worse in USA) kept promising to =
install stack=20
cleanup for decades and now they are rumored to "retire" the unit in =
favor of=20
two new coal fired units that will "absolutely positively" have&nbsp;no =
stack=20
emissions... honest Injun, trust me, would I lie. highest priced hired =
public=20
relations top guns of the State of Texas.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Had&nbsp;our local beer drinker at the Dime =
Box saloon=20
run the numbers on Bio-fuels.. yep!.. net increase in available fuel =
delivered=20
after accounting for fuel and combined energy used in producing the =
Bio-fuel..=20
zero, zilch !! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Once was an itinerant peddler used to come =
thru town=20
peddling cake soap made from sawdust.. never made but one sale. Once was =
all it=20
took, like the girl that accidently spread her skirts and sat in poison=20
ivy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana>Richard</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 07:28:50 2007
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Subject: [Vo]: Attacks against cold fusion published
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The usual garbage. See:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0703300070mar30,1,1977.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

I wrote to the author.

A short version of this was published by the Salt Lake Tribune, which 
has published previous attacks:

http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_5569842

I added a comment to this one, with the same content as the message 
to the author at the Chicago Tribune.

- Jed

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Subject: [Vo]: ORMES  questions
Status: O
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I had a serendipitous event last Thursday night. I met this Chem E. He 
was talking about remediating the waste out of a nickle mine.  I 
mentioned ghost gold, he replied, ORMES. I mentioned Joe Champion's 
theories, he mentioned LENR. He knows about BLP too. I wanted to discuss 
the matter further, but he has a commitment to his partners. He did 
mention a theory of everything. I searched it, as far as I can tell, it 
applies to particle physics. He said that a researcher at the U of M is 
working on it.



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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Subject: [Vo]: Article: Algae eyed as next biofuel source by '08
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SUBJECT: Article - Algae eyed as next biofuel source by '08

The following article ought to bring warm cockles to Jones' heart.

See:

http://www.thenewstoday.info/2007/04/02/algae.eyed.as.next.biofuel.source.in.rp.by.08.html

http://tinyurl.com/2lbcnf

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com


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SUBJECT: Article - Algae eyed as next biofuel source by '08<br />
<br />
The following article ought to bring warm cockles to Jones' heart.<br />
<br />
See:<br />
<br />
http://www.thenewstoday.info/2007/04/02/algae.eyed.as.next.biofuel.source.i=
n.rp.by.08.html<br />
<br />
http://tinyurl.com/2lbcnf<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
Steven Vincent Johnson<br />
www.OrionWorks.com<br />
<br />

--=_e851fd98c49bec06d67bde2eab2196f8--

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Fred,

... chances are, the biofuel skeptic will chose to opine that 
"Albuquerque" must be on Mars, since earthlings without a spell-checker 
could never get there from here <g>

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 07:47:18 2007
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To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
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Frederick Sparber wrote, in a message about algae:

>Jones Beene wrote:
>
>Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are 
>here to stay.
>
> > Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on 
> planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food.

As I said in a previous message, my remarks only apply to plantlife 
grown outdoors in North America. I said: "Growing algae in tanks is 
another matter."

- Jed

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From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" <ow01@voyager.net>
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Can someone help clarify:

What is the algae's food source? Surely there's more to this recycling equation than just supplying the little critters CO2.

How difficult or easy will it be to supply all the required nutrients to make an economical go of this?

Most of these articles seem to skim over the little fiddly bits.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

> 
> Frederick Sparber wrote, in a message about algae:
> 
> >Jones Beene wrote:
> >
> >Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are 
> >here to stay.
> >
> > > Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on 
> > planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food.
> 
> As I said in a previous message, my remarks only apply to plantlife 
> grown outdoors in North America. I said: "Growing algae in tanks is 
> another matter."
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

--=_aeacbdf9aaf39c32c19f3b8f166377fe
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Can someone help clarify:<br />
<br />
What is the algae's food source? Surely there's more to this recycling equa=
tion than just supplying the little critters CO2.<br />
<br />
How difficult or easy will it be to supply all the required nutrients to ma=
ke an economical go of this?<br />
<br />
Most of these articles seem to skim over the little fiddly bits.<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
Steven Vincent Johnson<br />
www.OrionWorks.com<br />
<br />
> <br />
> Frederick Sparber wrote, in a message about algae:<br />
> <br />
> >Jones Beene wrote:<br />
> ><br />
> >Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are <br />
> >here to stay.<br />
> ><br />
> > > Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on <br />
> > planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food.<br />
> <br />
> As I said in a previous message, my remarks only apply to plantlife <br /=
>
> grown outdoors in North America. I said: "Growing algae in tanks is <br /=
>
> another matter."<br />
> <br />
> - Jed<br />
> <br />
> <br />

--=_aeacbdf9aaf39c32c19f3b8f166377fe--

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 08:37:17 2007
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber@earthlink.net>
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Jed Rothwell wrote.
>
> To: <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
> Date: 4/2/2007 8:47:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote, in a message about algae:
>
> >Jones Beene wrote:
> >
> >Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are 
> >here to stay.
> >
> > > Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on 
> > planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food.
>
> As I said in a previous message, my remarks only apply to plant life 
> grown outdoors in North America. I said: "Growing algae in tanks is 
> another matter."
>
Jones Beene did a Google satellite view of the area where the Colorado River
enters the Gulf of California last year. Enough Algae Bloom biofuel
potential to run all the
trucks and cars in the USA for months, not to mention the algae bloom on
Lake Meade a few
years ago.

Fred
>
> - Jed



From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 08:42:28 2007
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Plenty of available nitrogen (NOx - SOx) and mineral ash from coal-fired power plants,
plus recycle of potassium and phosphate and iron etc., from burning of the algae residues, Steven.

Fred
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Steven Vincent Johnson 
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: 4/2/2007 8:57:38 AM 
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza


Can someone help clarify:

What is the algae's food source? Surely there's more to this recycling equation than just supplying the little critters CO2.

How difficult or easy will it be to supply all the required nutrients to make an economical go of this?

Most of these articles seem to skim over the little fiddly bits.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

> 
> Frederick Sparber wrote, in a message about algae:
> 
> >Jones Beene wrote:
> >
> >Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are 
> >here to stay.
> >
> > > Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on 
> > planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food.
> 
> As I said in a previous message, my remarks only apply to plantlife 
> grown outdoors in North America. I said: "Growing algae in tanks is 
> another matter."
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16414" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Plenty of available nitrogen (NOx - SOx) and mineral ash from coal-fired power plants,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>plus recycle of potassium and phosphate and iron etc., from burning of the algae residues, Steven.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=2>Fred</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=ow01@voyager.net href="mailto:ow01@voyager.net">Steven Vincent Johnson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A title=vortex-l@eskimo.com href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 4/2/2007 8:57:38 AM </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2>Can someone help clarify:<BR><BR>What is the algae's food source? Surely there's more to this recycling equation than just supplying the little critters CO2.<BR><BR>How difficult or easy will it be to supply all the required nutrients to make an economical go of this?<BR><BR>Most of these articles seem to skim over the little fiddly bits.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Steven Vincent Johnson<BR>www.OrionWorks.com<BR><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Frederick Sparber wrote, in a message about algae:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;Jones Beene wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;Advanced biofuels, on the other hand, like butanol and algoil are <BR>&gt; &gt;here to stay.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sure, as soon as we can grow them on Mars, I suppose. Here on <BR>&gt; &gt; planet Earth we barely have enough room to grow enough food.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; As I said in a previous message, my remarks only apply to plantlife <BR>&gt; grown outdoors in North America. I said: "Growing algae in tanks is <BR>&gt; another matter."<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; - Jed<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--


From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 09:01:44 2007
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Jones Beene wrote.
>
>
> Fred,
>
> ... chances are, the biofuel skeptic will chose to opine that 
> "Albuquerque" must be on Mars, since earthlings without a spell-checker 
> could never get there from here <g>
>
Not hard to find on a map of Bernalillio County NM, Jones, once
you figure out how to spell "Burn-ah-Leo". My spell checker offered Bengali
and Bernoulli. :-)

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=bernalillo%20county%20nm&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF
-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wl

Fred



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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> As I said in a previous message, my remarks only apply to plantlife 
> grown outdoors in North America. I said: "Growing algae in tanks is 
> another matter."



That is an artificial distinction. You definitely do NOT need, nor even 
want "tanks".

In fact there are already plans and suggestions from NREL that almost 
every power plant in the USA which now burns coal or natural gas could 
and should be piping CO2 into an adjoining algae pond.

The cost of earthmoving to create large ponds is well known and de 
minimis. Most power plants are located far removed from urban areas with 
plenty of buffer land which is perfect for such ponds. Hot water is a 
plus for algae, allowing full year-round growing. If every power plant 
could convert even half of its normal CO2 emissions into algoil, then 
this is a huge step forward towards eliminating Arab oil, and might 
actually benefit the consummer in several ways.

1) less direct CO2 emission - near neutral net emission
2) self-sufficient production of transportation fuel in the USA
3) lower net cost of electricity, when the algoil is sold a profit.

It is no coincidence that the huge recent sale of power-plants in Texas, 
alluded to by Richard, will coincide with this shift towards algoil 
production by power companies (formerly oil drillers).

Jones

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Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 12:43:59 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Jones Beene did a Google satellite view of the area where the Colorado River
>enters the Gulf of California last year.

Let me amend that: my statement applied to plant life grown outdoors 
on land in North America, not in water.

However, the huge algae blooms in water in rivers and in the ocean 
are caused by pollution, so let us hope we eliminate them in the 
future. I suppose they might be harvested in the meanwhile, but the 
long-term goal should be to get rid of them.


>Enough Algae Bloom biofuel potential to run all the trucks and cars 
>in the USA for months, not to mention the algae bloom on Lake Meade 
>a few years ago.

Well, you would have to find a way to keep the bloom there 
permanently, which might not be easy, and I am sure it would violate 
National Park rules. It might mess up the generators, too. But let's 
check the numbers.

Lake Meade, on the Colorado River, has a surface area of 620 km^2. 
That's 620,000,000 square meters. It is arid, and solar energy 
reaching the ground in North America arid places is about 500 W at 
peak, or 1.5 kWh/m^2/day.

This is outdoors, so we are talking about natural algae, not a bred 
or domesticated species or genetically altered version. (Most 
domesticated species are inherently weak, and cannot survive in the 
wild.) Also, production will be seasonal. I believe natural algae 
photosynthesis efficiency is . . . what? 2% overall? So that comes to:

18,600,000 kWh or 18.6 GWh. This is 86% of the output of a typical 
U.S. nuclear reactor (900 MW running 24 hours = 21.6 GWh). That's an 
impressive amount of energy to be sure, but the U.S. consumes 384.7 
million gallons/day of gasoline for transportation. See:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/quickoil.html

According to an on-line energy converter, that comes to 
14,080,020,000 kWh, so it is too low by a factor of 800.

http://www.onlineconversion.com/energy.htm

This estimate seems wrong to me. I have double checked these numbers, 
but I do not find the error, but this seems to indicate it would take 
651 nuclear reactors to supply liquid fuel for automobiles. That's 
~200 more generators of all types than the U.S. presently possesses. 
Looking at it another way, the Annual Energy Review Diagram 1 shows 
that in the U.S. nuclear plants contributes 8.15 Quads per year. 
There are about 100 nuclear plants. Transportation consumes 26.52 
quads, so if you could magically convert nuclear electricity into 
transportation energy, it would take 325 reactors. Taking into 
account the comparative inefficiency of internal combustion engines, 
perhaps it would take twice as many, after all.

Lake Meade is the largest man-made body of water, and we would need 
800 more like that, all filled with noxious gunk.

You can see from this how horribly inefficient internal combustion 
gasoline based transportation is. Compared to other major energy 
consuming technology, such as lightbulbs and power generators, 
automobiles are stuck about 50 to 100 years behind the times. Rather 
than trying to supply these ridiculous machines with liquid fuel, it 
makes far more sense improve the efficiency of the machines, and 
reduce or eliminate their need for liquid fuel.

- Jed

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Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 12:57:57 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
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Jones Beene wrote:

>That is an artificial distinction. You definitely do NOT need, nor 
>even want "tanks".

There are tanks in most of the prototypes now on line, such as this one:

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/08/worlds_first_ca.php


>In fact there are already plans and suggestions from NREL that 
>almost every power plant in the USA which now burns coal or natural 
>gas could and should be piping CO2 into an adjoining algae pond.

In the U.S. outdoors it is too cold in winter for algae to grow 
naturally. (I have several ponds and streams, and I am quite familiar 
with the stuff.) You need to keep it warm, and exposed to sunlight. 
Therefore, a growing pond would have to be covered or heated with 
waste heat from the generator plant. I said "tanks" but I had in mind 
covered ponds or the plastic bags now being used for this 
application. There is plenty of waste heat at plants, not to mention 
CO2, so that is a promising technology. But you cannot have ponds 
thousands of hectares wide in natural conditions that are heated and 
that produce algae year-round in natural conditions (that is, without 
massive infusions of man-made heat or CO2).

Algae grown at fossil fuel generator plants is probably a great idea, 
but it cannot begin to supply all of the liquid fuel we need for 
transportation (14,080 GWh/day). Naturally, it could if we were to 
reduce liquid fuel demand by a factor of 5 or 10, which we could 
easily do with plug-in hybrid cars. In a plug-in hybrid world, 
something like algae from fossil fuel plants would fit in perfectly, 
because it would reduce CO by half. That is to say, assuming the 
algae recovers all of the CO2 from the fossil fuel plants, it would 
end up using the same oxygen twice before finally converting it to CO2.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
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I wrote:

>Lake Meade, on the Colorado River, has a surface area of 620 km^2. 
>That's 620,000,000 square meters. It is arid, and solar energy 
>reaching the ground in North America arid places is about 500 W at 
>peak, or 1.5 kWh/m^2/day.

>I believe natural algae photosynthesis efficiency is . . . what? 2% 
>overall? So that comes to:
>
>18,600,000 kWh or 18.6 GWh. This is 86% of the output of a typical 
>U.S. nuclear reactor . . .

I could be wrong about that 2%. I am sure that algae grows better in 
the heated, CO2 enriched ponds next to fossil fuel plants, that Jones 
Beene discussed. In Chapter 16 of my book, I computed that plants 
grown under ideal conditions in the Japanese food factories convert 
as much as 15% of the light energy into food. This is light in a 
narrow wavelength of PAR, and the atmosphere is enriched with extra 
CO2. I doubt that a heated outdoor pond -- even one supercharged with 
CO2 -- is as good as the food factory, so I suppose algae is 
somewhere between 2 and 15%. It would be way better per square-meter 
than using Lake Meade or some other unheated natural body of water.

However, if you want to tap solar energy, I think it would be more 
efficient and cost-effective to make a 620 km^2 solar-electric 
generator plant collection space. This is ~20% efficient, so it would 
be equivalent to ~8 U.S. nuclear plants. You could put ~100 km^2 near 
Las Vegas, and another ~200 km^2 near Los Angeles, and you would 
eliminate their daytime demand for electricity, which is high because 
of air conditioning.


>Transportation consumes 26.52 quads, so if you could magically 
>convert nuclear electricity into transportation energy, it would 
>take 325 reactors.

I meant convert it into gasoline directly. You can use the nuclear 
electricity in railroad commuter trains or plug-in hybrid cars, and 
these are far more efficient than gasoline-powered internal 
combustion engine-only cars. I suppose ~200 standard U.S. nukes that 
produce 16 quads per year would be roughly enough for a fleet of 
hybrid plug-in cars and trucks. You still need liquid fuel for long 
distance transportation, so you use ~200 nukes for electricity plus 
fuel from the algae grown at the ~250 existing fossil fuel plants 
(nuke equivalent; actually we have more than 250).

You might use waste heat from the nuke plants, but there is no ready 
source of enriched CO2 next to them. No fossil fuel, and they tend to 
be far from cities, so no garbage or sewage either.

- Jed

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Subject: [Vo]: 41% efficient solar cells
Status: RO
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I wrote:

>However, if you want to tap solar energy, I think it would be more 
>efficient and cost-effective to make a 620 km^2 solar-electric 
>generator plant collection space. This is ~20% efficient, so it 
>would be equivalent to ~8 U.S. nuclear plants.

In December 2006, Boeing-Spectrolab announced a 40.7% efficient cell 
that costs $3,000 per kW of capacity. That's remarkable. I did not 
know these things were so advanced. See:

http://www.energy.gov/news/4503.htm

Ed Storms has emphasized that it would be better to reduce the cost 
per watt of solar cells, rather than increase efficiency. This one 
appears to do both.

This kind of conversion efficiency is far ahead of anything that can 
be achieved with plant-life photosynthesis.

That would give you the equivalent of 16 nuclear plants in the 620 
km^2 desert area. That's a 25 km square. There are plenty of 
stretches of vacant land that large in U.S. desert areas.

It is a shame solar energy is not available at night. The Correas 
claimed that the solar energy they tap comes right through the earth. 
I asked them why, in that case, they did not try testing it 
underground. They insisted on muddling up the test by running their 
devices in sunlight, which they did not measure, thus mixing the two 
putative energy sources together. This is like running a cold fusion 
cell with a lit candle underneath the cell, without even measuring 
the candle flame energy. I suspect that their results are entirely 
caused by ordinary solar energy.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 11:18:17 2007
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Subject: [Vo]: Congress seeks documents in Purdue cold-fusion probe
Status: O
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Here is an AP story describing the latest attempt=20
to bully cold fusion researchers. I suspect=20
someone like Robert Park is behind this.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Congress seeks documents in Purdue cold-fusion probe

Associated Press

INDIANAPOLIS =96 Purdue University has become the=20
target of a congressional inquiry nearly two=20
months after a university panel cleared=20
allegations of research misconduct against a=20
scientist who claimed to have produced nuclear fusion in tabletop=
 experiments.

A congressional subcommittee has given Purdue=20
until Thursday to turn over copies of its=20
findings into the allegations raised last year=20
against Rusi Taleyarkhan, a professor of nuclear engineering.

Purdue announced Feb. 7 that an =93internal=20
inquiry=94 found no evidence supporting those=20
allegations and =93that no further investigation of=20
the allegations is warranted.=94

School officials, citing a Purdue confidentiality=20
policy, have declined to discuss what the inquiry found.

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Pollution, Bloom, or not, Jed, all of the water from watershed runoff
contains algae.

Figure out how much algae is available per unit volume after you've allowed
for feeding aquatic life and available natural plant nutrients. Cost
effective
harvesting using stream (gravity) flow since maximum production is near the
surface,
doesn't seem intractable.

Fred


> [Original Message]
> From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
> To: <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
> Date: 4/2/2007 10:44:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >Jones Beene did a Google satellite view of the area where the Colorado
River
> >enters the Gulf of California last year.
>
> Let me amend that: my statement applied to plant life grown outdoors 
> on land in North America, not in water.
>
> However, the huge algae blooms in water in rivers and in the ocean 
> are caused by pollution, so let us hope we eliminate them in the 
> future. I suppose they might be harvested in the meanwhile, but the 
> long-term goal should be to get rid of them.
>
>
> >Enough Algae Bloom biofuel potential to run all the trucks and cars 
> >in the USA for months, not to mention the algae bloom on Lake Meade 
> >a few years ago.
>
> Well, you would have to find a way to keep the bloom there 
> permanently, which might not be easy, and I am sure it would violate 
> National Park rules. It might mess up the generators, too. But let's 
> check the numbers.
>
> Lake Meade, on the Colorado River, has a surface area of 620 km^2. 
> That's 620,000,000 square meters. It is arid, and solar energy 
> reaching the ground in North America arid places is about 500 W at 
> peak, or 1.5 kWh/m^2/day.
>
> This is outdoors, so we are talking about natural algae, not a bred 
> or domesticated species or genetically altered version. (Most 
> domesticated species are inherently weak, and cannot survive in the 
> wild.) Also, production will be seasonal. I believe natural algae 
> photosynthesis efficiency is . . . what? 2% overall? So that comes to:
>
> 18,600,000 kWh or 18.6 GWh. This is 86% of the output of a typical 
> U.S. nuclear reactor (900 MW running 24 hours = 21.6 GWh). That's an 
> impressive amount of energy to be sure, but the U.S. consumes 384.7 
> million gallons/day of gasoline for transportation. See:
>
> http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/quickoil.html
>
> According to an on-line energy converter, that comes to 
> 14,080,020,000 kWh, so it is too low by a factor of 800.
>
> http://www.onlineconversion.com/energy.htm
>
> This estimate seems wrong to me. I have double checked these numbers, 
> but I do not find the error, but this seems to indicate it would take 
> 651 nuclear reactors to supply liquid fuel for automobiles. That's 
> ~200 more generators of all types than the U.S. presently possesses. 
> Looking at it another way, the Annual Energy Review Diagram 1 shows 
> that in the U.S. nuclear plants contributes 8.15 Quads per year. 
> There are about 100 nuclear plants. Transportation consumes 26.52 
> quads, so if you could magically convert nuclear electricity into 
> transportation energy, it would take 325 reactors. Taking into 
> account the comparative inefficiency of internal combustion engines, 
> perhaps it would take twice as many, after all.
>
> Lake Meade is the largest man-made body of water, and we would need 
> 800 more like that, all filled with noxious gunk.
>
> You can see from this how horribly inefficient internal combustion 
> gasoline based transportation is. Compared to other major energy 
> consuming technology, such as lightbulbs and power generators, 
> automobiles are stuck about 50 to 100 years behind the times. Rather 
> than trying to supply these ridiculous machines with liquid fuel, it 
> makes far more sense improve the efficiency of the machines, and 
> reduce or eliminate their need for liquid fuel.
>
> - Jed



From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 11:28:47 2007
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This makes no sense at all. The sonofusion work has no hope of being 
practical and the issue of reproducibility is trivial. Why would 
Congress get involved? If the oil industry were worried about cold 
fusion, many methods much closer to a practical device than this one are 
being investigated. Why are they not being targeted.

Ed


Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Here is an AP story describing the latest attempt to bully cold fusion 
> researchers. I suspect someone like Robert Park is behind this.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> 
> Congress seeks documents in Purdue cold-fusion probe
> 
> Associated Press
> 
> INDIANAPOLIS  Purdue University has become the target of a 
> congressional inquiry nearly two months after a university panel cleared 
> allegations of research misconduct against a scientist who claimed to 
> have produced nuclear fusion in tabletop experiments.
> 
> A congressional subcommittee has given Purdue until Thursday to turn 
> over copies of its findings into the allegations raised last year 
> against Rusi Taleyarkhan, a professor of nuclear engineering.
> 
> Purdue announced Feb. 7 that an internal inquiry found no evidence 
> supporting those allegations and that no further investigation of the 
> allegations is warranted.
> 
> School officials, citing a Purdue confidentiality policy, have declined 
> to discuss what the inquiry found.
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 11:41:08 2007
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
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 Jones Beene wrote.
>
>
> Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> > As I said in a previous message, my remarks only apply to plantlife 
> > grown outdoors in North America. I said: "Growing algae in tanks is 
> > another matter."
>
>
>
> That is an artificial distinction. You definitely do NOT need, nor even 
> want "tanks".
>
> In fact there are already plans and suggestions from NREL that almost 
> every power plant in the USA which now burns coal or natural gas could 
> and should be piping CO2 into an adjoining algae pond.
>
Don't leave out waste heat from nuclear power plants heating algae ponds,
Jones. Plenty of "sequestered"
CO2 to pipe to them, and it would help reduce cooling tower water usage,
too.

Fred
>
> The cost of earthmoving to create large ponds is well known and de 
> minimis. Most power plants are located far removed from urban areas with 
> plenty of buffer land which is perfect for such ponds. Hot water is a 
> plus for algae, allowing full year-round growing. If every power plant 
> could convert even half of its normal CO2 emissions into algoil, then 
> this is a huge step forward towards eliminating Arab oil, and might 
> actually benefit the consummer in several ways.
>
> 1) less direct CO2 emission - near neutral net emission
> 2) self-sufficient production of transportation fuel in the USA
> 3) lower net cost of electricity, when the algoil is sold a profit.
>
> It is no coincidence that the huge recent sale of power-plants in Texas, 
> alluded to by Richard, will coincide with this shift towards algoil 
> production by power companies (formerly oil drillers).
>
> Jones



From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 11:51:34 2007
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Pollution, Bloom, or not, Jed, all of the water from watershed runoff
>contains algae.

Yes. Way too much. We should be trying to reduce that.


>Figure out how much algae is available per unit volume after you've 
>allowed for feeding aquatic life and available natural plant 
>nutrients. Cost effective
>harvesting using stream (gravity) flow since maximum production is near the
>surface, doesn't seem intractable.

This sounds like a large scale project that may hurt the ecosystem, 
especially if we curb the pollution that causes algae blooms, and 
reduce the amounts to natural levels. The amount you should leave to 
feed aquatic life is easily computed: it is exactly the amount that 
nature has been providing for millions of years before we got into 
the picture. Species are evolved to eat that much. As soon as we get 
back of the picture and stop polluting the water, we should also stop 
harvesting the stuff.

We should also stop harvesting wild fish, by the way. We should only 
eat domesticated ones grown by us.

In other words, it is not a good idea to remove millions of tons of 
food from the ecosystem food chain for any reason, whether the food 
will be eaten by fish (algae) or by people in Mexico (corn). I think 
it would be far better to tap solar energy with less invasive 
devices, such as wind turbines and solar-thermal collectors.

Again, the reason boils down to the fact that natural photosynthesis 
is inefficient; it takes a lot of sunlight to produce a little 
chemical fuel. The latest solar cells are 400 times more efficient 
per square meter than the best naturally occurring photosynthetic 
conversion. Therefore, they will have a smaller impact on the ecosystem.

Unnatural photosynthesis in a heated pond charged with CO2 from a 
fossil fuel plant is an entirely different story. It is far better to 
start with, and you might improve it with domesticated species of 
algae. I have read there are some that might be far more efficient. 
U.C. Berkeley has engineered a stain that might be 100,000 times 
better at producing hydrogen than natural algae. See:

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/02/70273

Domesticated species are often more efficient, but as I said 
previously there is an inevitable trade-off: they cannot survive in 
the wild. They are weak. For example, in food crops, we redirect most 
of their metabolism to producing grain, which weakens their natural 
defenses and other adoptions. If you plant human bred corn (maize) in 
the middle of a meadow in the woods, it attracts too many herbivores, 
and the seeds fall so thickly around the plant the next generation 
does not survive. Natural corn -- the type that was first 
domesticated by native Americans -- had smaller cobs with fewer grains.

- Jed

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Frederick Sparber wrote:

>Don't leave out waste heat from nuclear power plants heating algae ponds,
>Jones. Plenty of "sequestered" CO2 to pipe to them, and it would 
>help reduce cooling tower water usage, too.

Where is "sequestered" CO2 near a nuclear plant? As I said, they 
build these things far from cities, and also far from fossil fuel 
plants. Or are you suggesting they should pipe CO2 from a fossil fuel 
plant a few hundred kilometers away? That might work. I suppose it 
does not take much energy to pump the gas.

I must say though, I would much prefer to see them tear down the 
coal-fueled plants and build nuclear plants or wind turbines. I 
suppose you can pump CO2 from natural gas-fired plants, which will be 
with us for a long time to come, alas.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 12:05:10 2007
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Congress seeks documents in Purdue cold-fusion probe
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>This makes no sense at all. The sonofusion work has no hope of being 
>practical and the issue of reproducibility is trivial. Why would 
>Congress get involved? If the oil industry were worried about cold fusion . . .

I do not think this has anything to do with the oil industry. Robert 
Park and other enemies of cold fusion have frequently spoken out 
against sonofusion. They think it is another form of cold fusion. You 
have to realize, they have read nothing and they know nothing about 
either field of research, so they get the two confused.

Alternatively, this might have been engineered by Taleyarkhan's 
jealous academic rivals, who were the ones behind the original 
witchhunt at Purdue. They believe that sonofusion exists, but they 
want the credit for it.

- Jed

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Jed Rothwell wrote.
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >Pollution, Bloom, or not, Jed, all of the water from watershed runoff
> >contains algae.
>
> Yes. Way too much. We should be trying to reduce that.
>
>
> >Figure out how much algae is available per unit volume after you've 
> >allowed for feeding aquatic life and available natural plant 
> >nutrients. Cost effective
> >harvesting using stream (gravity) flow since maximum production is near
the
> >surface, doesn't seem intractable.
>
> This sounds like a large scale project that may hurt the ecosystem, 
> especially if we curb the pollution that causes algae blooms, and 
> reduce the amounts to natural levels. The amount you should leave to 
> feed aquatic life is easily computed: it is exactly the amount that 
> nature has been providing for millions of years before we got into 
> the picture. Species are evolved to eat that much. 
> 
No problem there, Jed, we switch to eating fish and clams/mussells which
frees up
corn for E-85 production.  :-)
>
> As soon as we get 
> back of the picture and stop polluting the water, we should also stop 
> harvesting the stuff.
>
Yes, otherwise it ends up in the ocean and rots.
>
> We should also stop harvesting wild fish, by the way. We should only 
> eat domesticated ones grown by us.
>
> In other words, it is not a good idea to remove millions of tons of 
> food from the ecosystem food chain for any reason, whether the food 
> will be eaten by fish (algae) or by people in Mexico (corn). I think 
> it would be far better to tap solar energy with less invasive 
> devices, such as wind turbines and solar-thermal collectors.
>
> Again, the reason boils down to the fact that natural photosynthesis 
> is inefficient; it takes a lot of sunlight to produce a little 
> chemical fuel. The latest solar cells are 400 times more efficient 
> per square meter than the best naturally occurring photosynthetic 
> conversion. Therefore, they will have a smaller impact on the ecosystem.
>
> Unnatural photosynthesis in a heated pond charged with CO2 from a 
> fossil fuel plant is an entirely different story. It is far better to 
> start with, and you might improve it with domesticated species of 
> algae. I have read there are some that might be far more efficient. 
> U.C. Berkeley has engineered a stain that might be 100,000 times 
> better at producing hydrogen than natural algae. See:
> http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/02/70273
>
Blue-Green Algae is practically everywhere (airborne) as is CO2. 

As long as the water is warm and nutrients, NOx, and  sunlight adequate you
can see the
O2 bubbles come off as the algae proliferate in a container.
>
> Domesticated species are often more efficient, but as I said 
> previously there is an inevitable trade-off: they cannot survive in 
> the wild. They are weak. For example, in food crops, we redirect most 
> of their metabolism to producing grain, which weakens their natural 
> defenses and other adoptions. If you plant human bred corn (maize) in 
> the middle of a meadow in the woods, it attracts too many herbivores, 
> and the seeds fall so thickly around the plant the next generation 
> does not survive. Natural corn -- the type that was first 
> domesticated by native Americans -- had smaller cobs with fewer grains.
>
Tis far better to plant Cannabis in the woods, I hear, even though it's
agains the Law I fear...
Unanimous. (at Berkely?)
Must be a full moon out there.

Fred.
>
Fred
>
> - Jed



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 Jed Rothwell wrote.
>
>
> Frederick Sparber wrote:
>
> >Don't leave out waste heat from nuclear power plants heating algae ponds,
> >Jones. Plenty of "sequestered" CO2 to pipe to them, and it would 
> >help reduce cooling tower water usage, too.
>
> Where is "sequestered" CO2 near a nuclear plant? As I said, they 
> build these things far from cities, and also far from fossil fuel 
> plants. Or are you suggesting they should pipe CO2 from a fossil fuel 
> plant a few hundred kilometers away? That might work. I suppose it 
> does not take much energy to pump the gas.
>
That 1040 Megawatt Arizona Public Service natural gas fueled power plant is
"about 50 miles west of
Phoenix. So is the 3,900 Megawatt Palo Verde Nuke Plant.

CO2 from ethanol plants and other sources is easy to compress to liquid for
transport
by truck, rail or pipeline (even as a mix with natural gas in off season).
>
> I must say though, I would much prefer to see them tear down the 
> coal-fueled plants and build nuclear plants or wind turbines. I 
> suppose you can pump CO2 from natural gas-fired plants, which will be 
> with us for a long time to come, alas.
>
> - Jed



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Frederick Sparber wrote:

> > As soon as we get
> > back of the picture and stop polluting the water, we should also stop
> > harvesting the stuff.
> >
>Yes, otherwise it ends up in the ocean and rots.

If so, that is what it has been doing for millions of years, and 
that's what it is "supposed" to do. You can bet that if we interfere 
on a scale large enough to satisfy a significant fraction of our 
energy needs, we will also disrupt some aspect of the ecosystem, 
starting with the species that cause the rotting.

In other words, the scale of human energy production is simply too 
big for natural photosynethic processes. Not too big for wind or 
direct solar, or perhaps geothermal. Some natural energy sources are 
bigger than others. But I would prefer to see us use an unnatural 
source such as fission or cold fusion. As a rule, I think it is 
better for us and for the ecology if we step out of the loop, and no 
longer try to depend on nature for our needs.

- Jed

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Subject: [Vo]: Possible problem with LENR-CANR. Please check.
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I use mainly the Firefox browser version 2.0.0.3. I recently 
installed Windows Internet Explorer 7, which is an abomination. I 
need to use occasionally for websites that do not work otherwise. 
Just now I tried to download a paper from LENR-CANR.org. It gave me 
the following message:

"This website wants to run the following add-on: IE PDFPlus OCX from 
'Zeon Corp. (unverified publisher)'. If you trust the website and the 
add-on and want to allow it to run click here . . ."

This happens with papers converted recently using the program PDF 
plus!, and also with papers compiled years ago using the original 
Acrobat program. If anyone else here is using Internet Explorer 7, or 
some other version, please try to download a paper and let me know if 
it gives you this message. I have never heard of "PDFPlus OCX from 'Zeon Corp."

I hope this is not some sort of virus that has invaded the website, 
and I hope this warning does not frighten off readers.

- Jed

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Cancel alarm. Reset. It seems to happen with any Acrobat file, 
anywhere on the web. It must be an interaction with Internet Explorer 
and PDF Plus!

IE is a can of worms.

- Jed

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Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 13:58:49 -0700
From: "leaking pen" <itsatrap@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
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not in all of the us.  a lot of empty ground is here in the southwest,
and algae will grow year round.

Also, large ponds that are heated...   that waste heat goes straight
up, and will change wehather patterns.

On 4/2/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Jones Beene wrote:
>
> >That is an artificial distinction. You definitely do NOT need, nor
> >even want "tanks".
>
> There are tanks in most of the prototypes now on line, such as this one:
>
> http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/08/worlds_first_ca.php
>
>
> >In fact there are already plans and suggestions from NREL that
> >almost every power plant in the USA which now burns coal or natural
> >gas could and should be piping CO2 into an adjoining algae pond.
>
> In the U.S. outdoors it is too cold in winter for algae to grow
> naturally. (I have several ponds and streams, and I am quite familiar
> with the stuff.) You need to keep it warm, and exposed to sunlight.
> Therefore, a growing pond would have to be covered or heated with
> waste heat from the generator plant. I said "tanks" but I had in mind
> covered ponds or the plastic bags now being used for this
> application. There is plenty of waste heat at plants, not to mention
> CO2, so that is a promising technology. But you cannot have ponds
> thousands of hectares wide in natural conditions that are heated and
> that produce algae year-round in natural conditions (that is, without
> massive infusions of man-made heat or CO2).
>
> Algae grown at fossil fuel generator plants is probably a great idea,
> but it cannot begin to supply all of the liquid fuel we need for
> transportation (14,080 GWh/day). Naturally, it could if we were to
> reduce liquid fuel demand by a factor of 5 or 10, which we could
> easily do with plug-in hybrid cars. In a plug-in hybrid world,
> something like algae from fossil fuel plants would fit in perfectly,
> because it would reduce CO by half. That is to say, assuming the
> algae recovers all of the CO2 from the fossil fuel plants, it would
> end up using the same oxygen twice before finally converting it to CO2.
>
> - Jed
>
>


-- 
That which yields isn't always weak.

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 14:12:20 2007
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Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 17:11:40 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
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leaking pen wrote:

>Also, large ponds that are heated...   that waste heat goes straight 
>up, and will change weather patterns.

Well, we are only talking about doing this with waste heat from 
generators, and that already goes straight up. It is mostly released 
in the form of steam from the large conical cooling towers that many 
people mistakenly believe are nuclear reactors. (By the way, this 
steam kills millions of birds, many more than wind turbines do.)

Still, this is a point well taken, and it might be a good idea to 
reduce evaporation from ponds, especially in arid places. In the 
photos of algae production in power plants that I saw recently, the 
algae was grown in large plastic bags exposed to sunlight. This would 
prevent evaporation. I cannot find those photos, but they are out 
there . . . somewhere.

- Jed

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Subject: [Vo]: Re: Possible problem with LENR-CANR. Please check.
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Jed, I just test downloaded a paper by Ed Storms and another by Schwinger 
both usng "save target as" and directly opening them in IE ver 7.0.5730. No 
problem - no messages like yours. 

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Organization: Energy K. Systems
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Since you mention this problem, I would like to remind those who own a 
PC that all of these problems can be eliminated by getting an iMac that 
runs both system OS-X and Windows. The Mac can be used on the internet 
with Netscape, which avoids most of the nasties and the Windows version 
can be used for everything else, if you insist. Microsoft is not the 
only game in town anymore.

Ed

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> I use mainly the Firefox browser version 2.0.0.3. I recently installed 
> Windows Internet Explorer 7, which is an abomination. I need to use 
> occasionally for websites that do not work otherwise. Just now I tried 
> to download a paper from LENR-CANR.org. It gave me the following message:
> 
> "This website wants to run the following add-on: IE PDFPlus OCX from 
> 'Zeon Corp. (unverified publisher)'. If you trust the website and the 
> add-on and want to allow it to run click here . . ."
> 
> This happens with papers converted recently using the program PDF plus!, 
> and also with papers compiled years ago using the original Acrobat 
> program. If anyone else here is using Internet Explorer 7, or some other 
> version, please try to download a paper and let me know if it gives you 
> this message. I have never heard of "PDFPlus OCX from 'Zeon Corp."
> 
> I hope this is not some sort of virus that has invaded the website, and 
> I hope this warning does not frighten off readers.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

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Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 14:29:27 -0700
From: "leaking pen" <itsatrap@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
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True, however, in terms of weather patterns, a small temperature over
a large area has more effect than large but concentrated.  see el
nino.

On 4/2/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
> leaking pen wrote:
>
> >Also, large ponds that are heated...   that waste heat goes straight
> >up, and will change weather patterns.
>
> Well, we are only talking about doing this with waste heat from
> generators, and that already goes straight up. It is mostly released
> in the form of steam from the large conical cooling towers that many
> people mistakenly believe are nuclear reactors. (By the way, this
> steam kills millions of birds, many more than wind turbines do.)
>
> Still, this is a point well taken, and it might be a good idea to
> reduce evaporation from ponds, especially in arid places. In the
> photos of algae production in power plants that I saw recently, the
> algae was grown in large plastic bags exposed to sunlight. This would
> prevent evaporation. I cannot find those photos, but they are out
> there . . . somewhere.
>
> - Jed
>
>


-- 
That which yields isn't always weak.

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 14:34:58 2007
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Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 17:34:25 -0400
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Subject: [Vo]: Nuclear power plant scandals in Japan
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In recent weeks, Japanese television and newspapers have reported 
that over the past 29 years there have been as many as 97 accidents 
and near-accidents at 12 Japanese nuclear power plants that were 
covered up. The most severe of these were criticality accidents that 
occurred when the control rods fall down to the bottom of the 
container in a particular type of reactor. Apparently the mechanism 
that raises and lowers the rods sometimes loses its grip, and the 
rods fall out of the core. One incident lasted for 37 hours.

The government is now talking about "tightening up oversight" and 
"preventing future occurrences" but until yesterday there was no 
mention of fining the companies or punishing the people who 
participated in the cover up. I think that if something like this 
happened in the US, several top executives would be taken away in 
handcuffs in the so-called "perp-walk."

All this began when there was an accident recently that was not 
covered up. A government accident investigation panel was convened, 
and somehow the investigation got out of hand and revealed more than 
they intended. I say this because reporters found out that a 
government official who is one of the principal members of the panel 
knew about some of the incidents for the last 29 years, and did nothing.

There has not been much about this in the U.S. newspapers.

There has been a lot of irresponsible behavior in Japanese society 
lately, such as these coverups and Aneha incident in 2005. Aneha is 
an architect who designed many buildings without enough supports to 
withstand a magnitude 5 earthquake. One structural engineer 
interviewed on the news looked at the blueprints and photos and said, 
"Never mind an earthquake; frankly, I am surprised they have not 
fallen down already." See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construction_Accounting_Statement_Forgery_Problem

- Jed

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 14:51:12 2007
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Nuclear power plant scandals in Japan
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Ah. The story has progressed since I last heard about it. They have 
now revealed 97 incidents at nuclear power plants, 128 incidents at 
thermal (fossil fuel) plants, and 81 at hydroelectric plants. Those 
power company managers have been busy little bees all these years. 
Here are some recent reports in English:

A comment about the privatization of Los Alamos and how it relates to 
this cover up. I do not see the connection but this is pretty funny:

http://lanl-the-corporate-story.blogspot.com/2007/03/criticality-accidents-in-japan-and-lanl.html

"This blog is a follow-on to "LANL: The Real Story." Privatization at 
LANL is a fait accompli, soon to befall LLNL. The real content will 
be up to you, the thoughtful Readers, including those from soon-to-be 
quagmired LLNL. . . ."

The latest from the Yomiuri:

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20070330TDY04001.htm

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/national/20070331TDY02010.htm

'100 workers present at criticality accident'

The No. 2 reactor at Tokyo Electric Power Co.'s Fukushima No. 1 
nuclear power station went critical in October 1984, as about 100 
workers were still within the reactor container during a regular 
checkup, it was revealed Friday.

Ten electric power firms, Japan Atomic Power Co. (JAPC) and Electric 
Power Development Co. reported to the government Friday of 306 cases 
of cover-ups of problems and data fabrications at nuclear, thermal 
and hydro-electric power stations throughout the nation.

According to the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency of the Economy, 
Trade and Industry Ministry, the 12 companies reported 97 cases at 
nuclear power stations, 128 cases at thermal power stations and 81 
cases at hydraulic power stations in their reports detailing cases 
relating to cover-ups of troubles and data fabrication. . . ."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  2 15:28:15 2007
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Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 18:27:57 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Nuclear power plant scandals in Japan
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This is astounding. The Japanese version of the Yomiuri article 
includes some details not translated into English, which are even 
worse. Japanese text here:

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/national/news/20070330it12.htm

Last para, translated by me:

"Included in the 306 incidents listed in the report are several cases 
from different power stations in which operators repeated the same 
fraudulent accounting numerous times, and these are each counted as 
one case. The actual number of incidents in which rules and 
regulations were bent and inappropriate procedures were followed 
probably numbers in the thousands, at least."

Japan is a nation prone to cover-ups and obscurity, but this scandal 
takes the cake.

- Jed

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Subject: [Vo]: Re: Possible problem with LENR-CANR. Please check.
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Hi Jed,
I have d/l'd several papers using WIE 7, and there was no problem.
Norman

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 9:34 PM
Subject: [Vo]: Possible problem with LENR-CANR. Please check.


>I use mainly the Firefox browser version 2.0.0.3. I recently installed 
>Windows Internet Explorer 7, which is an abomination. I need to use 
>occasionally for websites that do not work otherwise. Just now I tried to 
>download a paper from LENR-CANR.org. It gave me the following message:
>
> "This website wants to run the following add-on: IE PDFPlus OCX from 'Zeon 
> Corp. (unverified publisher)'. If you trust the website and the add-on and 
> want to allow it to run click here . . ."
>
> This happens with papers converted recently using the program PDF plus!, 
> and also with papers compiled years ago using the original Acrobat 
> program. If anyone else here is using Internet Explorer 7, or some other 
> version, please try to download a paper and let me know if it gives you 
> this message. I have never heard of "PDFPlus OCX from 'Zeon Corp."
>
> I hope this is not some sort of virus that has invaded the website, and I 
> hope this warning does not frighten off readers.
>
> - Jed
> 

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Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 19:42:14 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Congress seeks documents in Purdue cold-fusion probe
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On 4/2/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:

> I do not think this has anything to do with the oil industry.


A spring wind blows on the house of cards.

Terry

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Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 19:45:38 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Nuclear power plant scandals in Japan
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On 4/2/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:

> Japan is a nation prone to cover-ups and obscurity, but this scandal
> takes the cake.

The value of 'face' exceeds that of 'truth'.

Terry

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What does big-oil fear more than Nancy Pelosi and the Dem-wits?

Answer: the resourcefulness of the American farmer, backed by voter 
anti-tax sentiment in support of this 'local hero'.

And now with aquaculture and depleted fishing resources - they also are 
fearing the emergence of low-cost sea-based aquaculture (algae harvesting).

Oil prices cannot go much higher than $3.50-4.00 at the pump now, 
because of this looming price-cap - placed on oil NOT by the legislature 
(which would like to see it go even higher) but by the farm lobby and 
good-old capitalist profit-motive ...

...together with the clear realization in DC that that if the farmer and 
aquaculture get 'over the hump' and into full production and employment, 
then each will have the necessary voter bloc constituency - which can 
and WILL eliminate most taxes for the domestic product only, putting 
big-oil and big government spenders at competitive disadvantage.

Part of the PR problem for algoil starts at the top. Vital info has been 
accumulated by NREL, but is not being released in a timely fashion. They 
are not comfortable with a massive shift of resources into aquaculture. 
However, discovery of this profit potential (in alternative fuel) is 
almost impossible to obfuscate.

What we see now, in the recent boom in ethanol production will shift 
next year and beyond into a boom in aquaculture and biodiesel. There is 
little chance of turning back that trend --unless LENR, ZPE or 
hydrino-tech comes to the rescue.

The late/great 300+ page study on algae - crammed full of disinformation 
from DoE is now 10 years old, and NREL was supposed to have a timely 
update with revised comparisons on the yield of the newer strains of 
algae, which are superior (as expected) and best techniques - but no one 
can find this revision online. Is this deliberate interference ?

...ah shucks, probably just being held-up a bit by Petro-insider 
"consultants" as it is very damaging to 'bidness' as they say in Dubai.

At 10 years old, when crude was under $20 or about a fourth of what it 
is now - biodiesel from aquaculture was not then seen by DoE as 
competitive - so consequently they did NOT plan for it aggressively (as 
they should have). They even said: "Even with assumptions of $50 per ton 
of CO2 as a carbon credit, the cost of biodiesel never competes with the 
projected cost of petroleum diesel."

That was their erroneous conclusion then! One hopes that we will not 
repeat that error and will plan aggressively and encourage the shift 
away from OPEC for the next ten years: which is based firmly biodiesel 
from aquaculture. Yields are up to 10,000 time higher per acre than 
soybeans, for instance. BTW this report does admit that 100% 
self-sufficiency is possible through aquaculture - but hardly a dent can 
be accomplished from agriculture alone (soy and corn).

That "never competes" conclusion is what big-oil "wants" you to remember 
in 2007, but my-my -- look how a few oil-Wars change everything which 
was valid then, as now the wholesale price of petro-diesel at the pump 
in 2007 is actually higher than biodiesel in many places.

The cost estimates for the ASP program developed in 1995 showed that 
algal biodiesel cost would range from $1.40 to $4.40 per gallon based on 
  long-term projections - three times more than petro-diesel then. They 
also allude to the 'full-tax' or 'less-tax' implications. That is the 
very consideration which puts government at odds with citizens. Voters 
will pay modest taxes on biodiesel for road improvement but not massive 
taxes for sponsoring oil-wars or other pork.

Yes that is a gross over-simplification of the embedded dynamics, but it 
gets to the crux of the problem. We, the citizens, want self-sufficiency 
and are willing to vote for the US farmer (or aquaculturist) in any way 
which will get us there, even if it means lower taxes for Hawks to wage 
war with.

The current price of biodiesel has lived up to that estimate (actually 
below the low end of that estimate), but 2007 numbers for petro-diesel 
are much higher than DoE estimated then. The next ten years will be even 
harder to estimate, because biodiesel from algae itself will probably 
lower the rigged-price which the Arabs and OPEC can extort.

They can and will sell oil any price necessary to ruin or stifle the 
competition, so we must protect biodiesel from predatory pricing and we 
can use one-sided taxes to do that. However, this will probably lower 
overall tax revenues -- so there is the problem in a nutshell. Duh!

Average price per gallon in the USA, from DoE two years ago:

Biodiesel (untaxed but from higher priced soy, NOT algae)
$2.27

Diesel (taxed)
$2.24

Gasoline (taxed)
$2.11

Ethanol (untaxed)
$1.86

I filled up today in California with regular gasoline at $3.25. I wish I 
had a diesel and would even pay more for biodiesel - but look at what 
little choice the consummer has in that regard. Forty percent of autos 
in Europe are diesel - almost zero here.

The reason that government is complicit with OPEC and big-oil on not 
wanting the biodiesel alternatives is the enormous tax base which can be 
lost. And most of it does not go for roads. Of the $3.25/gallon only 
about $1.40 goes to the the refinery and dealer- the rest is local, 
state, and federal taxes. If consumers insist on getting biodiesel but 
with lower taxes, since it is locally produced, that is the big fear. 
They may buy it direct from the farmer which is an even greater fear.

BTW big-oil always raises prices in California first, to see if that 
brings out the protesters in large numbers. It did not this year. You 
will be next, wherever you are. The brief downturn in prices over the 
winter was a 'cruelty joke'. Look for $4.00/gallon nationwide by July 
4th. Why?

Did you see how much Hillary C. i$ raising for her run? Rudy will need 
even more to win, with all his 'skeletons' in the closet, and that 
regime-stability-factor for the Petrocracy will probably show up at the 
pump.

Jones

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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell@mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Nuclear power plant scandals in Japan
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Terry Blanton writes:

>> Japan is a nation prone to cover-ups and obscurity, but this scandal
>> takes the cake.
>
>The value of 'face' exceeds that of 'truth'.

This looks like straight out criminality to me. They did not want to turn o=
ff the reactors, pay a fine, or deal with the B.S. of regulators poking int=
o their business. One of the documents uncovered was described by the repor=
ter as saying, in summary, "we know that safety is our responsibility, and =
we are going to have to write regulations and do what needs to be done. We =
are the experts in reactor safety. Let's keep the government and the public=
 from poking around and telling us how to run our business."

In the previous nuclear accidents in Japan, the level of cover-up and audac=
ity of the lies was breathtaking. After a reactor fire, I recall they gave =
the news media a video showing the insides of the reactor building looking =
fine. The message was: "See? It's all fixed. Nothing to worry about. Go awa=
y." It turned out the video was made before the fire, and the place was a s=
hambles far worse than they had described previously. Their behavior remind=
s of the government in the Soviet Union around 1970. They are so used to ly=
ing it is second nature to them, and they have forgotten how to tell the tr=
uth. The nuclear power industry would never get away with that kind of thin=
g in the U.S.

The situation in Japan was well described by Alex Kerr, in the book "Dogs a=
nd Demons: Tales From the Dark Side of Japan." The Aneha construction scand=
al and this nuclear power scandal is even worse than anything he described =
-- or than I ever imagined. This is a nation & culture rotten to the core. =
Of course, this kind of thing never continues indefinitely. Sooner or later=
, societies either reform and become healthy again . . . or they go extinct=
. The people may survive, but the culture vanishes, the way Japan's pre-mod=
ern culture did after 1868. Commentators and newspaper articles often prais=
e the Japanese for "preserving their traditions" but it does not look that =
way to me. When I read about how my relatives lived in 1902, or 1860 -- wha=
t we ate, the kind of books we read, our jobs, marriages and concerns -- it=
 sounds a lot like my present culture. We still wear pants and suits, but J=
apanese people never wear kimonos anymore. We Americans & Europeans are the=
 ones who honor tradition, and know about the past. In Japan the past is a =
foreign country, and people have no roots. It is sad.

- Jed



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One of my correspondents, who may wish to remain anonymous, wrote to me:

>I was always uncomfortable whenever conventional Nuclear energy was proposed
>as clean and safe.
>The accidents and close calls and contaminations happen everywhere there is
>Nuclear power, it isn't safe.

I would like to share my response.

Naturally, I have mixed feelings about nuclear power. I think everyone on Vortex does -- this is a technically knowledgable group and we all know that a large machine can be dangerous, and there are always pros and cons.

Having said that, I have to ask: It isn't safe compared to what? It is lot safer than coal, which spews millions of tons of radioactive garbage, and is probably destroying the world with global warming. It is safer than oil, which pays for terrorism. Okay, it is a more dangerous than wind power, but unfortunately there is not enough wind in Georgia or Japan to make a significant contribution.

I feel angry at these Japanese managers and technicians partly because they have betrayed their profession -- they have betrayed us, and people like Mizuno, who trained in nuclear technology. They may even have destroyed the future of nuclear power in Japan, which is bad news for global warming. Engineers are supposed to tell the truth! And if only they *had* honored the truth, and openly reported the problem the first time, the following accidents would not have happened. Suppose the first time those rods fell out of the stack and into the bottom of the containment vessel they told the regulators, told the public, and most important, warned the other operators with the same kind of reactor. The problem would have been fixed instead of re-occuring time after time, and being covered up.

The sequence of events that destroyed the Three Mile Island reactor happened twice before at other plants made by the same company. Twice before the valve jammed open and there was no sensor to properly warn the operators. In both cases the problem was discovered before it led to serious consequences. A low-level NRL regulator took notice, wrote it up, and tried to have the equipment and control board modified to keep it from happening again. But no one listened, and the third time the problem went all the way and melted about a third of the core. If only the information had been brought into the light, and taken seriously, the accident never would have happened. It could have been avoided easily, with some simple modifications. Keeping these kinds of secrets is a violation of ethics of engineering and scientific research, and a horribly stupid thing to do.

- Jed



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Subject: Re: [Vo]: ORMES  questions
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Know who at U of M?

Zak


On Apr 2, 2007, at 7:32 AM, thomas malloy wrote:

> I had a serendipitous event last Thursday night. I met this Chem E.  
> He was talking about remediating the waste out of a nickle mine.  I  
> mentioned ghost gold, he replied, ORMES. I mentioned Joe Champion's  
> theories, he mentioned LENR. He knows about BLP too. I wanted to  
> discuss the matter further, but he has a commitment to his  
> partners. He did mention a theory of everything. I searched it, as  
> far as I can tell, it applies to particle physics. He said that a  
> researcher at the U of M is working on it.

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there are many theories of everything.  gut instinct, you know.

On 4/2/07, thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
> I had a serendipitous event last Thursday night. I met this Chem E. He
> was talking about remediating the waste out of a nickle mine.  I
> mentioned ghost gold, he replied, ORMES. I mentioned Joe Champion's
> theories, he mentioned LENR. He knows about BLP too. I wanted to discuss
> the matter further, but he has a commitment to his partners. He did
> mention a theory of everything. I searched it, as far as I can tell, it
> applies to particle physics. He said that a researcher at the U of M is
> working on it.
>
>
>
> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
>
>


-- 
That which yields isn't always weak.

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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Nuclear power plant scandals in Japan
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The reply-to was not vortex-L@eskimo.com as I had expected, not an attempt
at anonymity.

Never the less I believe that the Horror of Chernobyl, reports of up to 1
Million dead and continuing impact is perhaps great enough to put Nuclear
down the list a bit in terms of preferred power sources, Coal  is never so
devastating as that, coal is only worse if you assume Nuclear goes without a
hitch.

It's not a cost effective source of power either, it requires government
subsidies last I heard.

I'm not here to defend coal and oil, they are awful. (And indeed if man made
CO2 from fossil fuels are indeed responsible for global warming then I must
agree it it worse especially when in theory Nuclear can be safer than it
currently is)

But there is Hydro, Ocean (Tide, Wave and temperature differential), Solar
and Wind, each of which could solely be used to power the world if fully
tapped and in the case of Hydro engineered. (and if the energy was stored
and transmitted efficiently to where these sources were not available)

However on a more practical note I believe that Free Energy is possible with
solid state electrical equipment where the energy is either created or
tapped from a vast unseen reservoir.


Oh, of course I agree that Fossil fuel funds terrorism, but we may disagree
on which oil funded men commit Terrorism, but let's not go back there.

On 4/3/07, Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> One of my correspondents, who may wish to remain anonymous, wrote to me:
>
> >I was always uncomfortable whenever conventional Nuclear energy was
> proposed
> >as clean and safe.
> >The accidents and close calls and contaminations happen everywhere there
> is
> >Nuclear power, it isn't safe.
>
> I would like to share my response.
>
> Naturally, I have mixed feelings about nuclear power. I think everyone on
> Vortex does -- this is a technically knowledgable group and we all know that
> a large machine can be dangerous, and there are always pros and cons.
>
> Having said that, I have to ask: It isn't safe compared to what? It is lot
> safer than coal, which spews millions of tons of radioactive garbage, and is
> probably destroying the world with global warming. It is safer than oil,
> which pays for terrorism. Okay, it is a more dangerous than wind power, but
> unfortunately there is not enough wind in Georgia or Japan to make a
> significant contribution.
>
> I feel angry at these Japanese managers and technicians partly because
> they have betrayed their profession -- they have betrayed us, and people
> like Mizuno, who trained in nuclear technology. They may even have destroyed
> the future of nuclear power in Japan, which is bad news for global warming.
> Engineers are supposed to tell the truth! And if only they *had* honored the
> truth, and openly reported the problem the first time, the following
> accidents would not have happened. Suppose the first time those rods fell
> out of the stack and into the bottom of the containment vessel they told the
> regulators, told the public, and most important, warned the other operators
> with the same kind of reactor. The problem would have been fixed instead of
> re-occuring time after time, and being covered up.
>
> The sequence of events that destroyed the Three Mile Island reactor
> happened twice before at other plants made by the same company. Twice before
> the valve jammed open and there was no sensor to properly warn the
> operators. In both cases the problem was discovered before it led to serious
> consequences. A low-level NRL regulator took notice, wrote it up, and tried
> to have the equipment and control board modified to keep it from happening
> again. But no one listened, and the third time the problem went all the way
> and melted about a third of the core. If only the information had been
> brought into the light, and taken seriously, the accident never would have
> happened. It could have been avoided easily, with some simple modifications.
> Keeping these kinds of secrets is a violation of ethics of engineering and
> scientific research, and a horribly stupid thing to do.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>
>

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The reply-to was not <a href="mailto:vortex-L@eskimo.com">vortex-L@eskimo.com</a> as I had expected, not an attempt at anonymity.<br><br>Never the less I believe that the Horror of Chernobyl, reports of up to 1 Million dead and continuing impact is perhaps great enough to put Nuclear down the list a bit in terms of preferred power sources, Coal&nbsp; is never so devastating as that, coal is only worse if you assume Nuclear goes without a hitch.
<br><br>It&#39;s not a cost effective source of power either, it requires government subsidies last I heard.<br><br>I&#39;m not here to defend coal and oil, they are awful. (And indeed if man made CO2 from fossil fuels are indeed responsible for global warming then I must agree it it worse especially when in theory Nuclear can be safer than it currently is)
<br><br>But there is Hydro, Ocean (Tide, Wave and temperature differential), Solar and Wind, each of which could solely be used to power the world if fully tapped and in the case of Hydro engineered. (and if the energy was stored and transmitted efficiently to where these sources were not available)
<br><br>However on a more practical note I believe that Free Energy is possible with solid state electrical equipment where the energy is either created or tapped from a vast unseen reservoir.<br><br><br>Oh, of course I agree that Fossil fuel funds terrorism, but we may disagree on which oil funded men commit Terrorism, but let&#39;s not go back there.
<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/3/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Jed Rothwell</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:jedrothwell@mindspring.com">jedrothwell@mindspring.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
One of my correspondents, who may wish to remain anonymous, wrote to me:<br><br>&gt;I was always uncomfortable whenever conventional Nuclear energy was proposed<br>&gt;as clean and safe.<br>&gt;The accidents and close calls and contaminations happen everywhere there is
<br>&gt;Nuclear power, it isn&#39;t safe.<br><br>I would like to share my response.<br><br>Naturally, I have mixed feelings about nuclear power. I think everyone on Vortex does -- this is a technically knowledgable group and we all know that a large machine can be dangerous, and there are always pros and cons.
<br><br>Having said that, I have to ask: It isn&#39;t safe compared to what? It is lot safer than coal, which spews millions of tons of radioactive garbage, and is probably destroying the world with global warming. It is safer than oil, which pays for terrorism. Okay, it is a more dangerous than wind power, but unfortunately there is not enough wind in Georgia or Japan to make a significant contribution.
<br><br>I feel angry at these Japanese managers and technicians partly because they have betrayed their profession -- they have betrayed us, and people like Mizuno, who trained in nuclear technology. They may even have destroyed the future of nuclear power in Japan, which is bad news for global warming. Engineers are supposed to tell the truth! And if only they *had* honored the truth, and openly reported the problem the first time, the following accidents would not have happened. Suppose the first time those rods fell out of the stack and into the bottom of the containment vessel they told the regulators, told the public, and most important, warned the other operators with the same kind of reactor. The problem would have been fixed instead of re-occuring time after time, and being covered up.
<br><br>The sequence of events that destroyed the Three Mile Island reactor happened twice before at other plants made by the same company. Twice before the valve jammed open and there was no sensor to properly warn the operators. In both cases the problem was discovered before it led to serious consequences. A low-level NRL regulator took notice, wrote it up, and tried to have the equipment and control board modified to keep it from happening again. But no one listened, and the third time the problem went all the way and melted about a third of the core. If only the information had been brought into the light, and taken seriously, the accident never would have happened. It could have been avoided easily, with some simple modifications. Keeping these kinds of secrets is a violation of ethics of engineering and scientific research, and a horribly stupid thing to do.
<br><br>- Jed<br><br><br><br></blockquote></div><br>

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Thomas wrote..

> He did mention a theory of everything. I searched it, as  far as I can 
> tell, it applies to particle physics. He said that a  researcher at the U 
> of M is working on it.

Howdy Thomas,

Not hard to run into lotsa people like this at meetings but where's the 
beef?

Richard 

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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Nuclear power plant scandals in Japan
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Jed wrote..

>Engineers are supposed to tell the truth!


Howdy Jed,

Good summary of the problems surrounding nuclear power. Your summary could 
also describe modern technology.

The single greatest technological impact on society over the past 300 years 
is so subtle as to be unrecognized... CREDIT CARDS.

  While we have safety programs and a host of inspectors and reporters 
watching nuclear programs including Parksie, notice nobody is watching 
CitiBank... hmmm.. they are following Halliburton to Dubai.. but a bank by 
any other name is still spelled Saudi money.

The solution to energy supply will become apparent when the power fails in 
Cali, New York and  D.C.  Stop using so much electric power and use more 
energy efficent autos. It is working for credit cards.. ask any college kid.

Richard




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Subject: [Vo]: The Streets of SF
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The Streets of San Francisco...

No... not the Michael Douglas, Karl Malden reruns .... but a newer kind 
of non-stop chase-scene ... chasing the rolling-green, as it were.

... but is it the "next big thing" ?

http://www.technologyreview.com/Biotech/18476/

Following the dot.com 'bust' 7-8 years ago, lots of jobs were lost in 
the epicenter of that phenomenon - the San Francisco Bay area; but most 
of the IPO wealth had long since been cashed-out by savvy investors - 
and already rebooted into a gaggle of genetic engineering startup 
companies, many of which located a few blocks away in South San Francisco.

Even though that industry, epitomized by the company 'Genetech' has yet 
to fully mature, the 'smart money' which landed there, has moved-on, 
once again.

The original 'smart money' from 60's silicon valley: Intel, AMD and HP, 
jumped first to computers, then to software and games, then to dot.com, 
then to genetics and is now moving-on in a relentless quest to do for 
venture capital what Moore's law has done for the CPU.

That's why they call it "smart". 'Smart' and 'stationary' do not mix. A 
rolling stone may gather no moss, but like Rumple-straw, it can be 
transmuted into virtual gold, if spun rapidly.

The story of Amyris Biotech (above) is one of many similar.

However, the longshot bet on the "next big thing" may not be biofuel...

... make that "not only biofuel."

Jones


     Today I'll brew, tomorrow bake;
     Merrily then I'll dance and sing,
     For morrow will a king's heir bring.
     As little does a royal lady dream
     That Rumpelstiltskin is my name!"

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Subject: [Vo]: French train as good as airplanes
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The French V150 railroad just broke the world speed record for 
conventional railroad trains. I just realized that if railroad trains 
could routinely travel at that speed in the lower 48 states, nonstop 
trains would be effectively as fast as airplanes are today. This is 
because of the hub and spoke air transportation system and because 
there are so many delays getting to the airport and waiting after you 
get on board. Check it out:

V150 railroad locomotive with two cars:

357.2 mph = 575 km/h
25,000 HP engine = 18 MW

Boeing 747

Cruise speed: 565 mph = 910 km/h
Engines at cruise speed: 60 MW (I think)

Distance and time to New York, NY to San Francisco, CA

By road: 2,905 mi, V150 8:08 travel time
By air: 2,582 mi, Delta airlines (no direct direct flight): 7:49 
travel time with one stop

Distance and time to New York, NY to Atlanta, GA

By road: 883 miles, V150 2:28 travel time
By air: 749 miles, Delta airlines: 2:15 travel time nonstop

I, for one, would much prefer to take a train for 8 hours to get to 
the west coast, rather than schlep around in airports.

- Jed

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Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:55:26 -0500
From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" <ow01@voyager.net>
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Hi Jed,

I saw the CNN news article earlier today. It's a great use of the old "iron horse" technology refurbished with the latest enhancements. One would assume that the amount of energy consumed traveling by rail is significantly less than what is consumed doing the same distance by air.

I live in Madison, Wisconsin. There has been on the table for quite some time now an ambitious plan to bring back a commuter line between Madison and Milwaukee. I think there has also been a plan to add a line down to the Chicago outskirts. It has produced considerable debate from both sides of the issue, one I suspect that has yet to be resolved. I suspect one of the major complaints (regardless of whether it is justified or not) is a fear that it would never develop a sufficient customer base to make it profitable. State legislators fear it would turn into yet another state government boondoggle.

Traveling at 60 - 70 MPH by rail is by most standards a fast commute. Traveling at speeds in far excess of 300 MPH is downright...well I don't know WHAT it is! Maybe it's best not to look out the window. Guess I'd get used to it.

Commuting regularly at such speeds would seem to open up far more employment opportunities all around. Working in Chicago, but living in Madison (150 miles away) could turn out to be an affordable, practical, and idyllic life style, especially when the commute would take no longer than what it takes for a typical Madisonian to commute from one side of the city to the other. Even in our small town intercity commutes can consume 30 - 40 minutes in the midst of rush hour traffic. Despite these inconveniences we like our little town! Madison had been rated as one of the best cities in the U.S. to live in.

I think that little French train can. I think it can.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com


> 
> The French V150 railroad just broke the world speed record for 
> conventional railroad trains. I just realized that if railroad trains 
> could routinely travel at that speed in the lower 48 states, nonstop 
> trains would be effectively as fast as airplanes are today. This is 
> because of the hub and spoke air transportation system and because 
> there are so many delays getting to the airport and waiting after you 
> get on board. Check it out:
> 
> V150 railroad locomotive with two cars:
> 
> 357.2 mph = 575 km/h
> 25,000 HP engine = 18 MW
> 
> Boeing 747
> 
> Cruise speed: 565 mph = 910 km/h
> Engines at cruise speed: 60 MW (I think)
> 
> Distance and time to New York, NY to San Francisco, CA
> 
> By road: 2,905 mi, V150 8:08 travel time
> By air: 2,582 mi, Delta airlines (no direct direct flight): 7:49 
> travel time with one stop
> 
> Distance and time to New York, NY to Atlanta, GA
> 
> By road: 883 miles, V150 2:28 travel time
> By air: 749 miles, Delta airlines: 2:15 travel time nonstop
> 
> I, for one, would much prefer to take a train for 8 hours to get to 
> the west coast, rather than schlep around in airports.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

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Hi Jed,<br />
<br />
I saw the CNN news article earlier today. It's a great use of the old "iron=
 horse" technology refurbished with the latest enhancements. One would assu=
me that the amount of energy consumed traveling by rail is significantly le=
ss than what is consumed doing the same distance by air.<br />
<br />
I live in Madison, Wisconsin. There has been on the table for quite some ti=
me now an ambitious plan to bring back a commuter line between Madison and =
Milwaukee. I think there has also been a plan to add a line down to the Chi=
cago outskirts. It has produced considerable debate from both sides of the =
issue, one I suspect that has yet to be resolved. I suspect one of the majo=
r complaints (regardless of whether it is justified or not) is a fear that =
it would never develop a sufficient customer base to make it profitable. St=
ate legislators fear it would turn into yet another state government boondo=
ggle.<br />
<br />
Traveling at 60 - 70 MPH by rail is by most standards a fast commute. Trave=
ling at speeds in far excess of 300 MPH is downright...well I don't know WH=
AT it is! Maybe it's best not to look out the window. Guess I'd get used to=
 it.<br />
<br />
Commuting regularly at such speeds would seem to open up far more employmen=
t opportunities all around. Working in Chicago, but living in Madison (150 =
miles away) could turn out to be an affordable, practical, and idyllic life=
 style, especially when the commute would take no longer than what it takes=
 for a typical Madisonian to commute from one side of the city to the other=
. Even in our small town intercity commutes can consume 30 - 40 minutes in =
the midst of rush hour traffic. Despite these inconveniences we like our li=
ttle town! Madison had been rated as one of the best cities in the U.S. to =
live in.<br />
<br />
I think that little French train can. I think it can.<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
Steven Vincent Johnson<br />
www.OrionWorks.com<br />
<br />
<br />
> <br />
> The French V150 railroad just broke the world speed record for <br />
> conventional railroad trains. I just realized that if railroad trains <br=
 />
> could routinely travel at that speed in the lower 48 states, nonstop <br =
/>
> trains would be effectively as fast as airplanes are today. This is <br /=
>
> because of the hub and spoke air transportation system and because <br />
> there are so many delays getting to the airport and waiting after you <br=
 />
> get on board. Check it out:<br />
> <br />
> V150 railroad locomotive with two cars:<br />
> <br />
> 357.2 mph =3D 575 km/h<br />
> 25,000 HP engine =3D 18 MW<br />
> <br />
> Boeing 747<br />
> <br />
> Cruise speed: 565 mph =3D 910 km/h<br />
> Engines at cruise speed: 60 MW (I think)<br />
> <br />
> Distance and time to New York, NY to San Francisco, CA<br />
> <br />
> By road: 2,905 mi, V150 8:08 travel time<br />
> By air: 2,582 mi, Delta airlines (no direct direct flight): 7:49 <br />
> travel time with one stop<br />
> <br />
> Distance and time to New York, NY to Atlanta, GA<br />
> <br />
> By road: 883 miles, V150 2:28 travel time<br />
> By air: 749 miles, Delta airlines: 2:15 travel time nonstop<br />
> <br />
> I, for one, would much prefer to take a train for 8 hours to get to <br /=
>
> the west coast, rather than schlep around in airports.<br />
> <br />
> - Jed<br />
> <br />
> <br />

--=_782110077bab86d9266c1cb880240024--

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Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 10:18:07 -0700
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From: Steven Krivit <steven1@newenergytimes.com>
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>
>357.2 mph = 575 km/h
>25,000 HP engine = 18 MW

357 mph in a train?

That's terrific. I love the concept of rail. But 357 is a little too scary 
for me.

Alternatively, you know what they say about flying...  It's really not too 
dangerous when you're in the air. The only problems are when you are near 
the ground....

s 

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Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:18:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rhong Dhong <rongdong99@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: French train as good as airplanes
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--- Steven Vincent Johnson <ow01@voyager.net> wrote:


> 
> Commuting regularly at such speeds would seem to
> open up far more employment opportunities all
> around. Working in Chicago, but living in Madison
> (150 miles away) could turn out to be an affordable,
> practical, and idyllic life style, especially when
> the commute would take no longer than what it takes
> for a typical Madisonian to commute from one side of
> the city to the other. 

It's no longer possible to have something like that in
the US. One suicide bomber will be all it takes to
justify turning the screws some more.

The commute will then include the need for each
passenger to go through a search, including removing
his shoes; with anyone who doesn't keep quiet or looks
vaguely suspicious pulled out of line for a strip
search, maybe a little salutary jail time. 





 
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Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:31:48 -0400
To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: French train as good as airplanes
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Steven Krivit wrote:

>Alternatively, you know what they say about flying...  It's really 
>not too dangerous when you're in the air. The only problems are when 
>you are near the ground....

I do not worry about the danger. I just do not like being crammed 
into a small, smelly cabin with bad food, air pressure changes, and 
all these invasive procedures against terrorism. The latest invasive 
procedure is to look at you naked with an x-ray machine. See:

http://www.slate.com/id/2160977/
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/02/24/us/24scan.jpg

I like to get up, stroll around, buy a cuppa java, look out the 
window and see something . . . The fast trains in France and Japan 
are great. If I could go all the way to Japan (6870) by fast train in 
19 hours, I would never take a 14-hour flight. It is a shame they 
cannot make trains run on water.

What I would really like to experience is a flight on a Zeppelin.

- Jed

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Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:38:29 -0400
To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: French train as good as airplanes
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Rhong Dhong wrote:

>It's no longer possible to have something like that in the US. One 
>suicide bomber will be all it takes to justify turning the screws some more.
>
>The commute will then include the need for each passenger to go 
>through a search . . .

Not a problem. It would take a huge bomb to destroy a fast train, or 
make it derail. Much bigger than it takes to destroy an airplane. Of 
course a small bomb would kill some people, but it would be no worse 
than an attack in a shopping mall. We are not going to set up 
searches at every shopping mall or other crowded place. Even the 
Israelis do not do that, and they have much more to worry about than Americans.

Note that Amtrak trains already limit the number of bags, and they do 
have a rudimentary search. The French and Japanese trains do not.

If anything, concerns about terrorism will increase the appeal of trains.

- Jed

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Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 13:44:25 -0500
From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" <ow01@voyager.net>
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Jed sez:

...

> 
> I like to get up, stroll around, buy a cuppa java, look
> out the window and see something . . . The fast trains
> in France and Japan are great. If I could go all the way
> to Japan (6870) by fast train in 19 hours, I would never
> take a 14-hour flight. It is a shame they cannot make
> trains run on water.
> 
> What I would really like to experience is a flight
> on a Zeppelin.
> 
> - Jed

So would I.

Not all that long ago I saw a wonderful article (I think it was published in either Popular Science or Popular Mechanics) on the conceptual design of a heavier than air "zeppelin" using 21st century state of the art technology. I think it was powered by a combination of solar cells and rechargeable batteries powering a series of electric props positioned along the sides. (Come to think of it, with NanoSolar's "printed" flexible solar film technology just around the corner, I think it's an even better bet.) It looked like a very FAT blimp filled with helium. The beauty of the concept was that when you cut the power it would simply float back to the ground, or body of water for that matter. Only when the electric props were actively engaged would there be enough air lift to get it off the ground - and on to infinity!

The conceptual images indicated to me that there would be sufficient passenger space (particularly on the observational deck) to make one feel as if they were strolling about on a cruse ship. What a view! Think "The Fifth Element" and you get the picture. No warp drives, however, at least not in the current model. I think it cruses at around 100 - 150 MPH.

I suspect the only thing holding them back are the old unjustified Hindenburg fears. The only concern I would personally harbor would be how it would negotiate its substantial girth through nasty cold fronts and other bad weather.

Regardless, I'd love to see them frolicking above.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com


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Jed sez:<br />
<br />
...<br />
<br />
> <br />
> I like to get up, stroll around, buy a cuppa java, look<br />
> out the window and see something . . . The fast trains<br />
> in France and Japan are great. If I could go all the way<br />
> to Japan (6870) by fast train in 19 hours, I would never<br />
> take a 14-hour flight. It is a shame they cannot make<br />
> trains run on water.<br />
> <br />
> What I would really like to experience is a flight<br />
> on a Zeppelin.<br />
> <br />
> - Jed<br />
<br />
So would I.<br />
<br />
Not all that long ago I saw a wonderful article (I think it was published i=
n either Popular Science or Popular Mechanics) on the conceptual design of =
a heavier than air "zeppelin" using 21st century state of the art technolog=
y. I think it was powered by a combination of solar cells and rechargeable =
batteries powering a series of electric props positioned along the sides. (=
Come to think of it, with NanoSolar's "printed" flexible solar film technol=
ogy just around the corner, I think it's an even better bet.) It looked lik=
e a very FAT blimp filled with helium. The beauty of the concept was that w=
hen you cut the power it would simply float back to the ground, or body of =
water for that matter. Only when the electric props were actively engaged w=
ould there be enough air lift to get it off the ground - and on to infinity=
!<br />
<br />
The conceptual images indicated to me that there would be sufficient passen=
ger space (particularly on the observational deck) to make one feel as if t=
hey were strolling about on a cruse ship. What a view! Think "The Fifth Ele=
ment" and you get the picture. No warp drives, however, at least not in the=
 current model. I think it cruses at around 100 - 150 MPH.<br />
<br />
I suspect the only thing holding them back are the old unjustified Hindenbu=
rg fears. The only concern I would personally harbor would be how it would =
negotiate its substantial girth through nasty cold fronts and other bad wea=
ther.<br />
<br />
Regardless, I'd love to see them frolicking above.<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
Steven Vincent Johnson<br />
www.OrionWorks.com<br />
<br />

--=_54fb356c3d811b652dc320c37224ebbf--

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 12:26:09 2007
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Subject: [Vo]: Supreme Court ruling may ultimately benefit cold fusion
Status: O
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Yesterday the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that CO2 is a form of 
pollution. In the long term, this may benefit cold fusion, for the 
reasons explained by Felix Kramer of the CalCars plug-in hybrid group:

"The Supreme Court has ruled that greenhouse gases are polluting 
emissions subject to regulation by the US Environmental Protection 
Agency. As a result, new cars in the relatively near future are going 
to have to emit much lower CO2 than they do now. This adds to the 
pressures on the auto industry to end business as usual thinking, 
and, we hope, start building "good enough" PHEVs. It adds to the 
momentum to fuel cars from renewable low-carbon sources.

This ruling sets the stage for the EPA to approve the waiver 
necessary for California's first Global Warming Bill (AB1493, 2002) 
to go into effect. That bill requires automakers to begin reducing 
GHGs from cars beginning in 2009, with
reductions reaching 30% in 2016 . . ."

This may turn out to be one of the most important events in the 
history of environmentalism.

Also in California, Gov. Schwarzenegger has turned out to be 
remarkably friendly toward environmentalism, and also an effective 
governor. This is a pleasant surprise to me.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 12:38:08 2007
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Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 15:37:25 -0400
To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: French train as good as airplanes
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I wrote:

>Not a problem. It would take a huge bomb to destroy a fast train, or 
>make it derail. Much bigger than it takes to destroy an airplane.

One of the reasons electric trains are safer is because they do not 
explode as easily as airplanes do. They do not carry volatile fuel. 
Most aircraft accident victims die from smoke inhalation or fire, 
after crash landings.

Even if the train is derailed, because a modern train car has a very 
strong structure and the passengers are likely to survive.

The high-speed train tracks in France are at ground level. I think 
the Japanese Shinkansen elevated train tracks are better. In the U.S. 
there is a significant risk of striking deer and other wildlife at 
ground level. Not just deer; last year I was driving in a hilly part 
of eastern Pennsylvania when a large black bear bounded across the 
road in front of me. Both of us were shook up.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 13:38:36 2007
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Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 16:38:24 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: French train as good as airplanes
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On 4/3/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:

> The high-speed train tracks in France are at ground level. I think
> the Japanese Shinkansen elevated train tracks are better.

True, but vastly more expensive in the US.  In Nippon, concrete is
much cheaper than dirt.  :-)

Terry

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Subject: RE: [Vo]: Supreme Court ruling may ultimately benefit cold fusion
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 14:30:16 -0700
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They'll just change emit more CO instead :-) .

-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 12:25 PM
To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]: Supreme Court ruling may ultimately benefit cold fusion


Yesterday the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that CO2 is a form of 
pollution. In the long term, this may benefit cold fusion, for the 
reasons explained by Felix Kramer of the CalCars plug-in hybrid group:

"The Supreme Court has ruled that greenhouse gases are polluting 
emissions subject to regulation by the US Environmental Protection 
Agency. As a result, new cars in the relatively near future are going 
to have to emit much lower CO2 than they do now...

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Apr  3 22:50:28 2007
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Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 00:50:00 -0500
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Rhong Dhong wrote:
>
>> It's no longer possible to have something like that in the US. One 
>> suicide bomber will be all it takes to justify turning the screws 
>> some more.
>>
>> The commute will then include the need for each passenger to go 
>> through a search . . .
>
>
> Not a problem. It would take a huge bomb to destroy a fast train, or 
> make it derail. Much bigger than it takes to destroy 

On the contrary, all it would take is a small shaped charge on the 
track. It would turn all that speeding mass into a very sympathetic target.


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
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On 4/4/07, thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:

> On the contrary, all it would take is a small shaped charge on the
> track. It would turn all that speeding mass into a very sympathetic target.

Actually, it's easier than that.  On the railroad here we have an
intentional derailer device which has a curved wedge shape which is
used as a safety device to protect track workers.  These are placed on
the rails to intentionally derail a train which either ignores warning
signals or is a runaway.

Terry

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Subject: [Vo]: Your Own Rocket
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Powered by Jones' favorite fuel:

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_2270686.html

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Subject: [VO]: Speaking of train wrecks
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BlankHowdy Vorts,

News mentions the anti-virus software industry has lost the worldwide =
battle with the bad guys. MSN admits that Vista has already been =
compromized.=20

Richard


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<DIV>News&nbsp;mentions the anti-virus software industry has lost the =
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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Apr  4 06:16:28 2007
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber@earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
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Jed keeps harping on the low (2%?) solar conversion efficiency of growing biomass, I'll
put my ~3.5 acres of irrigated farmland into Jatropha Curcas bushes, where land all around it is selling for $.50 to $1.50
per square foot, up against his "41% efficient Solar Collector" anytime. 

That is, If I can hire Jones Beene to do the harvesting and stompin/squeezing for energy storage.  :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_crop#Yields_of_common_crops_associated_with_biodiesel_production

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jatropha

http://www.jatrophaseeds.com/jatropha_curcas.htm

"Jatropha curcas grows almost anywhere, even on gravelly, sandy and saline soils. It can thrive on the poorest stony soil. It can grow even in the crevices of rocks. The leaves shed during the winter months form mulch around the base of the plant. The organic matter from shed leaves enhance earth-worm activity in the soil around the root-zone of the plants, which improves the fertility of the soil. Climatically, Jatropha curcas is found in the tropics and subtropics and likes heat, although it does well even in lower temperatures and can withstand a light frost. Its water requirement is extremely low and it can stand long periods of drought by shedding most of its leaves to reduce transpiration loss. Jatropha curcas is also suitable for preventing soil erosion and shifting of sand dunes. "

Fred
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<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">Jed keeps harping on the low (2%?) solar conversion efficiency of growing biomass, I'll</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">put my ~3.5 acres of irrigated farmland into Jatropha Curcas bushes, where land all around it is selling for $.50 to $1.50</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">per square foot, up against his "41% efficient Solar Collector" anytime. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">That is, If I can hire Jones Beene to do the harvesting and stompin/squeezing for energy storage.&nbsp; :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_crop#Yields_of_common_crops_associated_with_biodiesel_production">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_crop#Yields_of_common_crops_associated_with_biodiesel_production</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jatropha"><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jatropha</FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.jatrophaseeds.com/jatropha_curcas.htm"><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">http://www.jatrophaseeds.com/jatropha_curcas.htm</FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">"Jatropha curcas grows almost anywhere, even on gravelly, sandy and saline soils. It can thrive on the poorest stony soil. It can grow even in the crevices of rocks. The leaves shed during the winter months form mulch around the base of the plant. The organic matter from shed leaves enhance earth-worm activity in the soil around the root-zone of the plants, which improves the fertility of the soil. Climatically, Jatropha curcas is found in the tropics and subtropics and likes heat, although it does well even in lower temperatures and can withstand a light frost. Its water requirement is extremely low and it can stand long periods of drought by shedding most of its leaves to reduce transpiration loss. Jatropha curcas is also suitable for preventing soil erosion and shifting of sand dunes. "</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif">Fred</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif"><BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Apr  4 08:20:25 2007
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Zachary Jones wrote:

> Know who at U of M?
>
> Zak


Da! If I knew who he was, I'd look him up.

Richard wrote;

 >Not hard to run into lotsa people like this at meetings but >where's 
the beef?

It depends on whether or not someone can produce any gold doesn't it.




--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Apr  4 08:36:07 2007
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Frederick Sparber wrote:

> Jed keeps harping on the low (2%?) solar conversion efficiency of 
> growing biomass


It is probably lower than that for general agriculture, but once again, 
that figure is meaningless as -- and so is the 40% efficiency number for 
new solar cells.

These cells might achieve 40% at noon in July after being cleaned, yet 
only 10% at 9 am in December with the normal coating of grime which 
silicon picks up rapidly -plus- the main point is that they are 
extraordinarily expensive compared to ponds and plumbing (for CO2).

NREL has reported tank grown mixed algae strains which can surpass the 
40% efficency figure anyway, and generally algae will continue to 
multiply for several hours after the sun goes down.

The only comparison which counts in the least - therefore, is this:

How much net energy, averaged over a full year, can be captured and 
stored per dollar of investment, less incremental costs.

Under these criteria, which are the only ones which matter, it would not 
surprise any expert if the advantage of algoil over advanced silicon 
solar-cells turns out to be in the range of 50 times more energy 
returned per dollar of investment.

Jones


From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Apr  4 08:50:01 2007
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Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 11:49:40 -0400
To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: French train as good as airplanes
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thomas malloy wrote:

>>Not a problem. It would take a huge bomb to destroy a fast train, 
>>or make it derail. Much bigger than it takes to destroy
>
>On the contrary, all it would take is a small shaped charge on the 
>track. It would turn all that speeding mass into a very sympathetic target.

The French train with wheels was a tour de force, but not practical. 
The track had to be adjusted to the nearest millimeter at a huge 
cost. Maglev trains are much smoother and less vulnerable to problems 
with the track, or bombs, I assume. A Maglev train in Japan exceeded 
the new French record last year, 581 km/h versus 575 km/h. The French 
record is for wheeled trains only.

- Jed

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Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2007 11:15:08 -0500
From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" <ow01@voyager.net>
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>From Jones:

> These [solar] cells might achieve 40% at noon in July
> after being cleaned, yet only 10% at 9 am in December
> with the normal coating of grime which silicon picks
> up rapidly -plus- the main point is that they are 
> extraordinarily expensive compared to ponds and
> plumbing (for CO2).
>
> NREL has reported tank grown mixed algae strains which
> can surpass the 40% efficency figure anyway, and
> generally algae will continue to multiply for several
> hours after the sun goes down.
>
> The only comparison which counts in the least -
> therefore, is this:
>
> How much net energy, averaged over a full year, can be
> captured and stored per dollar of investment, less
> incremental costs.
>
> Under these criteria, which are the only ones which
> matter, it would not surprise any expert if the
> advantage of algoil over advanced silicon solar-cells
> turns out to be in the range of 50 times more energy 
> returned per dollar of investment.
>
> Jones

Jones makes an interesting point about the vulnerability of solar cell technology under certain seasonal conditions. However, what's not clear to me is what would algoil be doing under equivalent conditions at 9 am in December, when temperatures are hovering around 15 - 25 degrees F, or less. In the northern hemisphere the little critters would have already endured in excess of 12 hours of darkness (no photosynthesis) and sub freezing temperatures lowering their over-all body temperatures. I get the impression that they would work like gangbusters during the summer months. However, during the winter months I would be concerned that they might actually turn into a liability.

Jones claims they could possibly end up producing 50 times more energy returned per dollar of investment compared to solar cell technology. I'd like to believe that, but I remain a tad skeptical. Oh, what the hey. I guess when it comes down to the basics, five to ten times more "energy returned per dollar" would be nothing to sneeze at either.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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>From Jones:<br />
<br />
> These [solar] cells might achieve 40% at noon in July<br />
> after being cleaned, yet only 10% at 9 am in December<br />
> with the normal coating of grime which silicon picks<br />
> up rapidly -plus- the main point is that they are <br />
> extraordinarily expensive compared to ponds and<br />
> plumbing (for CO2).<br />
><br />
> NREL has reported tank grown mixed algae strains which<br />
> can surpass the 40% efficency figure anyway, and<br />
> generally algae will continue to multiply for several<br />
> hours after the sun goes down.<br />
><br />
> The only comparison which counts in the least -<br />
> therefore, is this:<br />
><br />
> How much net energy, averaged over a full year, can be<br />
> captured and stored per dollar of investment, less<br />
> incremental costs.<br />
><br />
> Under these criteria, which are the only ones which<br />
> matter, it would not surprise any expert if the<br />
> advantage of algoil over advanced silicon solar-cells<br />
> turns out to be in the range of 50 times more energy <br />
> returned per dollar of investment.<br />
><br />
> Jones<br />
<br />
Jones makes an interesting point about the vulnerability of solar cell tech=
nology under certain seasonal conditions. However, what's not clear to me i=
s what would algoil be doing under equivalent conditions at 9 am in Decembe=
r, when temperatures are hovering around 15 - 25 degrees F, or less. In the=
 northern hemisphere the little critters would have already endured in exce=
ss of 12 hours of darkness (no photosynthesis) and sub freezing temperature=
s lowering their over-all body temperatures. I get the impression that they=
 would work like gangbusters during the summer months. However, during the =
winter months I would be concerned that they might actually turn into a lia=
bility.<br />
<br />
Jones claims they could possibly end up producing 50 times more energy retu=
rned per dollar of investment compared to solar cell technology. I'd like t=
o believe that, but I remain a tad skeptical. Oh, what the hey. I guess whe=
n it comes down to the basics, five to ten times more "energy returned per =
dollar" would be nothing to sneeze at either.<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
Steven Vincent Johnson<br />
www.OrionWorks.com<br />

--=_fc2d8e338cab84e9f6b058b6e5f65ef1--

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Steven

> Jones makes an interesting point about the vulnerability of solar cell 
> technology under certain seasonal conditions. However, what's not clear 
> to me is what would algoil be doing under equivalent conditions at 9 am 
> in December, when temperatures are hovering around 15 - 25 degrees F, or 
> less. 

The prime location for any algae pond and CO2 sytem is adjacent to a 
regular power plant, where the hot water from cooling the steam 
generators (waste heat) heats the pond.

These power plants are usually sited in a remote location, and have 
large buffer zones which can accomodate a pond of several hundred acres.

An do not forget that there are algae strains which need little or no 
solar input at all - if they have heat and CO2 (these are found 
naturally around deep ocean thermal vents). 200 acres of algae, doubling 
in mass every few hours is lots of biota to work with - and you are also 
removing CO2 so it is win-win.

> Jones claims they could possibly end up producing 50 times more energy 
> returned per dollar of investment compared to solar cell technology. I'd 
> like to believe that, but I remain a tad skeptical. 


Then compute how much 200 acres of solar cells will cost...

Jones

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> > Jones claims they could possibly end up producing 50
> > times more energy returned per dollar of investment
> > compared to solar cell technology. I'd like to believe
> > that, but I remain a tad skeptical. 

> Then compute how much 200 acres of solar cells will cost...
> 
> Jones

Repeating the conclusion of my previous post: I guess when it comes down to the basics, [generating] five to ten times more "energy returned per dollar" would be nothing to sneeze at either.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com


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> > Jones claims they could possibly end up producing 50<br />
> > times more energy returned per dollar of investment<br />
> > compared to solar cell technology. I'd like to believe<br />
> > that, but I remain a tad skeptical. <br />
<br />
> Then compute how much 200 acres of solar cells will cost...<br />
> <br />
> Jones<br />
<br />
Repeating the conclusion of my previous post: I guess when it comes down to=
 the basics, [generating] five to ten times more "energy returned per dolla=
r" would be nothing to sneeze at either.<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
Steven Vincent Johnson<br />
www.OrionWorks.com<br />
<br />

--=_a3fdc048833af36539f4358e6a857e78--

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Apr  4 09:50:02 2007
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Speaking of ponds, Jones.

For spending a lazy afternoon on a dairy lagoon where the algae bloom, fed
by
wash-down nutrients and CO2 from Anerobic digestion of biomass sediment.

http://maps.google.com/maps?li=rwp&q=2295+CR+H,+CLOVIS,+NM+88101&ie=UTF8&t=h
&om=0&z=18&ll=34.588589,-103.180574&spn=0.001762,0.005375&iwloc=addr

Jones Beene wrote.
>
>
> These cells might achieve 40% at noon in July after being cleaned, yet 
> only 10% at 9 am in December with the normal coating of grime which 
> silicon picks up rapidly -plus- the main point is that they are 
> extraordinarily expensive compared to ponds and plumbing (for CO2).
>
> NREL has reported tank grown mixed algae strains which can surpass the 
> 40% efficency figure anyway, and generally algae will continue to 
> multiply for several hours after the sun goes down.
>
> The only comparison which counts in the least - therefore, is this:
>
> How much net energy, averaged over a full year, can be captured and 
> stored per dollar of investment, less incremental costs.
>
> Under these criteria, which are the only ones which matter, it would not 
> surprise any expert if the advantage of algoil over advanced silicon 
> solar-cells turns out to be in the range of 50 times more energy 
> returned per dollar of investment.
>
> Jones
>



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Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:23:49 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
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Actually, it was Alstom's attempt to market the TGV to the Chinese.

BTW, did you see the article in today's paper (AJC) about American Maglev?

http://www.american-maglev.com/

They're building a test track in Powder Springs.  I think I'm signing
up to go see it.  They claim they can build it for $15M/mi.  MARTA
takes about $75M per mile.  The Siemen's maglev takes about $100M/mi.

Terry

On 4/4/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:target.
>
> The French train with wheels was a tour de force, but not practical.
> The track had to be adjusted to the nearest millimeter at a huge
> cost. Maglev trains are much smoother and less vulnerable to problems
> with the track, or bombs, I assume. A Maglev train in Japan exceeded
> the new French record last year, 581 km/h versus 575 km/h. The French
> record is for wheeled trains only.

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Jones Beene wrote:

>>However, what's not clear to me is what would algoil be doing under 
>>equivalent conditions at 9 am in December, when temperatures are 
>>hovering around 15 - 25 degrees F, or less.
>
>The prime location for any algae pond and CO2 sytem is adjacent to a 
>regular power plant, where the hot water from cooling the steam 
>generators (waste heat) heats the pond.

As far as I know, all of the present large-plans to grow algae use 
waste heat and CO2 from power plants. Some pilot plants have been built.

It should be noted that there is a huge amount of waste heat from 
power generation, so this method could recycle a lot of carbon. As I 
said before, I expect the photosynthetic efficiency of algae in the 
artificial environment would be much better than the natural 2%. The 
waste heat from generators far exceeds the total amount of heat 
generated by burning coal. See the figure on last page of this document:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/NRELenergyover.pdf

Waste heat from generators is a little less than the 28.1 quads shown 
here, because that figure transmission and distribution losses (T&D 
losses). Coal produces 22.7 quads.

I wouldn't know, but I doubt that the overall conversion efficiency 
of the algae plant can convert more than the equivalent of 5% of the 
waste heat into biofuel with algae. It is not a direct, one-for-one 
conversion by any means, but anyway if it is 5%, that would be 1.4 
quads. The U.S. uses about 99 quads per year. Transportation uses 
26.6 quads, so at 5% conversion, algae biofuel would supply 5% of our 
transportation fuel, which is way more than corn ethanol would supply 
if it were an energy supply instead of an energy sink.

This figure illustrates how transportation is by far the least 
efficient sector. Industrial use of energy is the most efficient 
sector. Overall, useful energy is 34.3 quads and rejected energy 
(waste heat, T&D losses and so on) is 57.8 quads. This shows how much 
leeway there is to save energy with better efficiency. I think 
efficiency of up to 60% is possible in many major applications, 
whereas transportation is mired at 20%, not far from where it was 
when Henry Ford brought out the model T. The overall energy 
efficiency of electric power generation could be vastly improved by 
using more cogeneration.

For a big-picture look at energy, see:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/aer.pdf

There is an interesting trend on page xxxv, Fig. 65. "In 1999, 
transportation sector carbon dioxide emissions overtook industrial 
sector emissions."

- Jed

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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Wed, 04 Apr 2007 10:09:11 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>Zachary Jones wrote:
>
>> Know who at U of M?
>>
>> Zak
>
>
>Da! If I knew who he was, I'd look him up.
>
>Richard wrote;
>
> >Not hard to run into lotsa people like this at meetings but >where's=20
>the beef?
>
>It depends on whether or not someone can produce any gold doesn't it.

If Whitegold plays the role in life that they claim it plays, then the =
last
thing we want to do with it is convert it into useless yellow metal. =
Quite the
contrary, we should be looking for ways of converting the useless yellow =
metal
into Whitegold powder so that it can work its magic in the life cycle.

Going out on a limb, I would even go so far as to suggest that this may =
be the
original reason that the yellow metal became so prized in the first =
place. The
"gods" knew what to do with it, and therefore valued it. Our primitive
ancestors, through their contacts with the "gods", could only comprehend =
that it
was "valuable", without understanding why, and that sense of "value" has
continued to this day.

Now the original reason has become so lost in the mists of time that =
people are
even prepared to extract the Whitegold powder remaining in the Earth, and
convert it into metallic gold, because it's "valuable" - Doh!

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation,
Cooperation (communism) provides the means.

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To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 07:41:59 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 04 Apr 2007 14:35:15 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>Jones Beene wrote:
>
>>>However, what's not clear to me is what would algoil be doing under=20
>>>equivalent conditions at 9 am in December, when temperatures are=20
>>>hovering around 15 - 25 degrees F, or less.
>>
>>The prime location for any algae pond and CO2 sytem is adjacent to a=20
>>regular power plant, where the hot water from cooling the steam=20
>>generators (waste heat) heats the pond.
>
>As far as I know, all of the present large-plans to grow algae use=20
>waste heat and CO2 from power plants. Some pilot plants have been built.
>
>It should be noted that there is a huge amount of waste heat from=20
>power generation, so this method could recycle a lot of carbon. As I=20
>said before, I expect the photosynthetic efficiency of algae in the=20
>artificial environment would be much better than the natural 2%. The=20
>waste heat from generators far exceeds the total amount of heat=20
>generated by burning coal. See the figure on last page of this document:
>
>http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/NRELenergyover.pdf

Why is the "Unit cost" in $/kW as opposed to $/kWh? Is this a mistake, or=
 are
they actually talking about power plant construction costs?
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation,
Cooperation (communism) provides the means.

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Apr  4 14:57:50 2007
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> >waste heat from generators far exceeds the total amount of heat
> >generated by burning coal. See the figure on last page of this document:
> >
> >http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/NRELenergyover.pdf
>
>Why is the "Unit cost" in $/kW as opposed to $/kWh? Is this a mistake, or are
>they actually talking about power plant construction costs?

Where document are you talking about? I do not see "Unit Cost" in the 
NREL document.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
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There was a "green" alternative-energy story last fall:

"Global Green To Fund Demonstration Algae Bioreactor Plant"

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/10/global_green_to.html

Global Green Solutions has agreed to fund a pilot plant demo-ing the 
technology developed by Valcent Products for an algae system that 
converts CO2 to biofuel oil. There are 5-6 outfits with similar algae 
biofuel technology in the USA, including one known as MIT. There could 
be many more overseas.

There are also ramifications for going much further than this story 
indicates. MUCH further - if you read between the lines.

If the system lived up to best-case expectations, then in theory any 
present day coal-fired plant with enough acreage for ponds could 
actually harvest enough algae to need very little or NO coal and become 
very close to carbon neutral and self-sufficient !

This is a very optimistic reading of present results, granted, but it 
does explain rationale for why the huge influx of VC funding is going 
into something brand new and into buying up coal utilities at extremely 
high premiums. Note also that most of these utilities being bought have 
large adjoining acreage.

This GGS system yields a constant supply of algae during day time, which 
is harvested and processed to remove the oil, which will sell for FAR 
more than the coal which was burned to make it... or ... leaving a 
residue of some 50% by weight, which can also be sold for a variety of 
commercial products (animal feed) OR converted by enzymes into butanol 
... OR burned in place of much of the coal!

The system can be conceived in theory as a closed-loop producing all the 
fuel it needs - or at least producing products more valuable than the 
fuel which is burned. It is win-win, and the economics are staggering.

Valcent has extrapolated data from its test bed facility to conclude 
that production yields of up to 150,000 gallons (3,570 barrels) of 
bio-oil per acre per year are possible at a cost of about $20 per 
barrel. By comparison, soybeans yield about 68 gallons per acre and palm 
about 635 gallons per acre. This would seem like so much hyperbole, yet 
other studies from competitors are similar. This is not even the highest 
claim which can be found (in gallons per acre).

Yes - let's be clear that it is a big mistake to extrapolate from a 
best-case result to an average result over an extended period. But 
understand that this plant is based on only solar algae during daytime, 
so that 1/3 of the breeding time is underutilized. If the the technology 
emerges such that the strains of algae are hybridized to be robust using 
only heat and CO2, such as those under development which have been using 
single cell organisms hybridized from deep ocean vents - then it may be 
possible to increase the average yield up to nearer to the best case.

If the system were operated on the scale of an average farm - with 1000 
acres of these algae ponds, then the value of the oil produced at 
150,000 gallons per acre (best case) is at least $300,000,000 and if the 
fuel for the power plant which supplies the CO2 comes from the non-oil 
algae residue, with some added coal perhaps, then the electrical power 
would be essentially free of incremental cost, and the whole system much 
closer to carbon neutral.

OK. No one is suffering under the delusion that this can happens soon, 
but the fact that it has happened at all on a smaller scale - and in the 
best case scenario- in a real pilot plant- this is indicative of why so 
much venture capital is headed into this technology.

Jones

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 08:59:24 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 04 Apr 2007 17:57:38 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>> >waste heat from generators far exceeds the total amount of heat
>> >generated by burning coal. See the figure on last page of this =
document:
>> >
>> >http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/NRELenergyover.pdf
>>
>>Why is the "Unit cost" in $/kW as opposed to $/kWh? Is this a mistake, =
or are
>>they actually talking about power plant construction costs?
>
>Where document are you talking about? I do not see "Unit Cost" in the=20
>NREL document.

In each of the diagrams, under each "fuel type", e.g. for CRUDE =
OIL/GASOLINE
they have a Unit Cost ($/kW) : 1000, Total Cost ($/kW delivered) 8505.

This makes no sense to me. Gasoline doesn't cost $1000/kW. The very =
notion is
pointless. It also doesn't cost $1000/kWh, unless we have been subject to
rampant hyperinflation overnight, and nobody told me. ;)



Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation,
Cooperation (communism) provides the means.

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Apr  4 16:40:10 2007
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Subject: [Vo]: CD with 300 Multiphysics Presentations
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I'm forwarding the following link to Vortex.

Electrochemistry and Electrostatics and Magnetostatics are some of the
topics included.

Maybe there is something useful here.

It's "free."

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

****************************************************************

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presented at multiphysics conferences worldwide. Act now to receive the CD!

Request your complimentary copy at
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to order your free User Presentations CD.

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PS. Feel free to forward this offer to your colleagues so they can also
receive the CD. Thanks.


Dale Kipp
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2020 Kraft Drive
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(540) 552-5300



From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Apr  4 17:31:29 2007
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Robin van Spaandonk writes:

>>Where document are you talking about? I do not see "Unit Cost" in the 
>>NREL document.
>
>In each of the diagrams, under each "fuel type", e.g. for CRUDE OIL/GASOLINE
>they have a Unit Cost ($/kW) : 1000, Total Cost ($/kW delivered) 8505.

Ah, you are talking about the diagrams on pages 2 - 15. The "$/kW" cost is for capital equipment, as listed in Appendix C, p. 15. For example, in column 2 it shows that an advanced Central Baseload Fossil Plant is expected to cost $1,200 per kW, and footnote 1 says this is based on:

Electricity Supply: Supporting Analysis for the National Energy Strategy" SR/NES/90-03, DOE/EIA, 1991 EPRI, Technical Assessment Guide (TAG), Vol. 1,1986

A bit out of date.

- Jed



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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:43:28 -0500
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Jones wrote..
There was a "green" alternative-energy story last fall:

"Global Green To Fund Demonstration Algae Bioreactor Plant"

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/10/global_green_to.html


Howdy Jones,

Good insight, I passed on your comments to a party inside LCRA .

The Lower Colorado River Authority ( LCRA) is a state of Texas entity that 
has some coal fired power plants including three units  in my back yard. 
They made an announcement they were finally working on stack emissions and 
would build a 4th stack to scrub the baddest.. should be ready by year 
2010..whoopie.

Richard 

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 13:22:16 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:31:06 -0400
(GMT-04:00):
Hi,
[snip]
>Robin van Spaandonk writes:
>
>>>Where document are you talking about? I do not see "Unit Cost" in the=20
>>>NREL document.
>>
>>In each of the diagrams, under each "fuel type", e.g. for CRUDE =
OIL/GASOLINE
>>they have a Unit Cost ($/kW) : 1000, Total Cost ($/kW delivered) 8505.
>
>Ah, you are talking about the diagrams on pages 2 - 15. The "$/kW" cost =
is for capital equipment, as listed in Appendix C, p. 15. For example, in=
 column 2 it shows that an advanced Central Baseload Fossil Plant is =
expected to cost $1,200 per kW, and footnote 1 says this is based on:

That makes sense for an electric power plant, where the cost of capital
equipment is well known, but not much sense for e.g. CRUDE OIL/GASOLINE, =
where
the cost can the calculated any of a thousand different ways, depending =
on what
one decides to include or leave out.

It would have made a lot more sense to do the entire comparison based on =
cost /
unit energy, because the energy suppliers already include their own costs
(including plant costs) when they calculate the price they are going to =
charge.
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation,
Cooperation (communism) provides the means.

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 13:25:15 +1000
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In reply to  R.C.Macaulay's message of Wed, 4 Apr 2007 20:43:28 -0500:
Hi Richard,
[snip]
>
>
>Jones wrote..
>There was a "green" alternative-energy story last fall:
>
>"Global Green To Fund Demonstration Algae Bioreactor Plant"
>
>http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/10/global_green_to.html
>
>
>Howdy Jones,
>
>Good insight, I passed on your comments to a party inside LCRA .
>
>The Lower Colorado River Authority ( LCRA) is a state of Texas entity =
that=20
>has some coal fired power plants including three units  in my back yard.=
=20
>They made an announcement they were finally working on stack emissions =
and=20
>would build a 4th stack to scrub the baddest.. should be ready by year=20
>2010..whoopie.

With a little bit of luck, we'll have commercial fusion power by then, =
and they
will have closed down altogether.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation,
Cooperation (communism) provides the means.

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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Wed, 04 Apr 2007 10:09:11 -0500:
>Hi,
>[snip]
>
>>Zachary Jones wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Know who at U of M?
>>>
>>>Zak
>>>
>>
>>Da! If I knew who he was, I'd look him up.
>>
>>Richard wrote;
>>
>>
>>>Not hard to run into lotsa people like this at meetings but >where's 
>>>
>>the beef?
>>
>>It depends on whether or not someone can produce any gold doesn't it.
>>
>
>If Whitegold plays the role in life that they claim it plays, then the last thing we want to do with it is convert it into useless yellow metal. 
>
>
>Now the original reason has become so lost in the mists of time that people are even prepared to extract the Whitegold powder remaining in the Earth, and convert it into metallic gold, because it's "valuable" - Doh!
>
>
If you have some of that useless yellow metal and desire to convert it 
into white powder form, read David Hudson's patent. I had a copy on my 
old computer, it's out there somewhere.


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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The problem is that Comsol Multiphysics costs like $10 000. Has anyone here
worked with free FEM software like OpenFEM or FOI Edge?

David


On 4/5/07, OrionWorks <svj@orionworks.com> wrote:
>
> I'm forwarding the following link to Vortex.
>
> Electrochemistry and Electrostatics and Magnetostatics are some of the
> topics included.
>
> Maybe there is something useful here.
>
> It's "free."
>
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com
>
> ****************************************************************
>
> The User Presentation CD is a compilation of slides, papers and models
> presented at multiphysics conferences worldwide. Act now to receive the
> CD!
>
> Request your complimentary copy at
> http://www.comsol.com/activity/us_matweb_apr07/1.php
>
> CD Highlights
> *************
> - 272 papers from the proceedings
> - 153 user presentations
> - 32 keynote presentations
> - 30 ready-to-run COMSOL models
>
> Applications covered
> ********************
> AC/DC Systems
> Acoustics
> Bioscience and Bioengineering
> Earth Science
> Education
> Electrochemical Engineering
> Electrostatics and Magnetostatics
> Fluid-Structure Interactions
> Fluid Dynamics
> Heat Transfer and Thermo-Mechanics
> MEMS and Microfluidics
> Materials Science and Nanotechnology
> Optics and Photonics
> Plasma Physics EHD and MHD
> Porous Media Flow
> Process and Chemical Engineering
> RF and Microwave Engineering
> Reaction Engineering and Reactor Design
> Semiconductor Devices
> Structural Mechanics
> Transport Phenomena
>
> Visit http://www.comsol.com/activity/us_matweb_apr07/1.php
> to order your free User Presentations CD.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Bernt Nilsson
> COMSOL, Inc.
>
> PS. Feel free to forward this offer to your colleagues so they can also
> receive the CD. Thanks.
>
>
> Dale Kipp
> Director of MatWeb
> 2020 Kraft Drive
> Blacksburg, VA 24060 USA
> (540) 552-5300
>
>
>
>

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<div>The problem is that Comsol Multiphysics costs like $10 000. Has anyone here worked with free FEM software like OpenFEM or FOI Edge?</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>David<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/5/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">OrionWorks</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:svj@orionworks.com">svj@orionworks.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">I&#39;m forwarding the following link to Vortex.<br><br>Electrochemistry and Electrostatics and Magnetostatics are some of the
<br>topics included.<br><br>Maybe there is something useful here.<br><br>It&#39;s &quot;free.&quot;<br><br>Regards,<br>Steven Vincent Johnson<br><a href="http://www.OrionWorks.com">www.OrionWorks.com</a><br><br>****************************************************************
<br><br>The User Presentation CD is a compilation of slides, papers and models<br>presented at multiphysics conferences worldwide. Act now to receive the CD!<br><br>Request your complimentary copy at<br><a href="http://www.comsol.com/activity/us_matweb_apr07/1.php">
http://www.comsol.com/activity/us_matweb_apr07/1.php</a><br><br>CD Highlights<br>*************<br>- 272 papers from the proceedings<br>- 153 user presentations<br>- 32 keynote presentations<br>- 30 ready-to-run COMSOL models
<br><br>Applications covered<br>********************<br>AC/DC Systems<br>Acoustics<br>Bioscience and Bioengineering<br>Earth Science<br>Education<br>Electrochemical Engineering<br>Electrostatics and Magnetostatics<br>Fluid-Structure Interactions
<br>Fluid Dynamics<br>Heat Transfer and Thermo-Mechanics<br>MEMS and Microfluidics<br>Materials Science and Nanotechnology<br>Optics and Photonics<br>Plasma Physics EHD and MHD<br>Porous Media Flow<br>Process and Chemical Engineering
<br>RF and Microwave Engineering<br>Reaction Engineering and Reactor Design<br>Semiconductor Devices<br>Structural Mechanics<br>Transport Phenomena<br><br>Visit <a href="http://www.comsol.com/activity/us_matweb_apr07/1.php">
http://www.comsol.com/activity/us_matweb_apr07/1.php</a><br>to order your free User Presentations CD.<br><br>Best regards,<br><br>Bernt Nilsson<br>COMSOL, Inc.<br><br>PS. Feel free to forward this offer to your colleagues so they can also
<br>receive the CD. Thanks.<br><br><br>Dale Kipp<br>Director of MatWeb<br>2020 Kraft Drive<br>Blacksburg, VA 24060 USA<br>(540) 552-5300<br><br><br><br></blockquote></div><br>

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On 4/4/07, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> With a little bit of luck, we'll have commercial fusion power by then, and they
> will have closed down altogether.

With which technology?


Terry

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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 07:57:31 -0500
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Robin wrote..
> With a little bit of luck, we'll have commercial fusion power by then, and 
> they
> will have closed down altogether.

>With which technology?
>Terry

Howdy Vorts,

Year 2010,  provided it arrives on time is only 2 1/2 years off. The USA, 
provided it makes it another 2 1/2 years, won.t even be caught standing in 
line when the train arrives.

  For a scenario of where we will be in commercial fusion in 2 1/2 years, 
imagine hurricane Rita/ Katrina and the mass panic exodus of 2 million 
people fleeing Houston that day.
Absolute chaos,  and panic, every man for himself.

If you believe the leadership will provide, just remember the people 
standing on the freeway overpasses in NOLA for 3 days waiting for help. Ah! 
FEMA.. so secretive that the public isn't given the names of the local 
officials. So ineffective they can't even spend $ 50-150 billion dollars .. 
even a dumb college girl can do that.

Show me where DOE or DOD has done a better job than FEMA and I will believe 
fusion will be waiting for me in 2010.
Get a bicycle, a wood stove and some chickens.

Richard



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Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 09:40:53 -0400
To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>That makes sense for an electric power plant, where the cost of capital
>equipment is well known, but not much sense for e.g. CRUDE OIL/GASOLINE, where
>the cost can the calculated any of a thousand different ways, 
>depending on what
>one decides to include or leave out.

I am sure industry experts have a standard metric that covers most 
costs. It would be impossible to run an oil business if there were a 
thousand different ways to estimate costs. As shown in footnote 14, 
the $1000 rough estimate is based on a DOE "staff communication." I 
am sure it is not $100 and not $10,000.

- Jed

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Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 10:48:59 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality check, please
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Jones Beene quotes someone:

>Valcent has extrapolated data from its test bed facility to conclude 
>that production yields of up to 150,000 gallons (3,570 barrels) of 
>bio-oil per acre per year are possible at a cost of about $20 per barrel.

Oh come now, that's absurd. Let us have a reality check here please! 
Let's assume the system is a black hole that absorbs every joule of 
sunlight and converts it into oil.

1 acre = 4,047 m^2.

Sunlight falling on 1 m^2 at the equator under ideal conditions 
produces about 1 kW for ~6 hours per day (insolation in Africa); 4.2 
kWh/day. For one acre, that's 17 MWh/day. See:

http://www.apricus.com/html/solar_energy_calculator.htm

Divide by 24 hour for continuous output and it comes to 0.708 MW/acre.

1000 acres, which this writer claims is enough for a power plant, 
collects enough for continuous 708 MW operation with a black hole 
collector. But we are talking about North America, not the Sahara 
desert, and it is inconceivable that the thing is 100% efficient at 
conversion. A pond filled with algae is not a black hole; it reflects 
plenty of sunlight. I doubt the overall process of conversion is even 
2% by the time you process the stuff into oil, but even at 5% 
conversion efficiency in Africa you are talking about a 35 MW 
generator, which is a lot smaller than most coal-fired plants. 
Substitute North American insolation (4.3) and with 5% overall 
efficiency and you get a 25 MW plant.


>If the the technology emerges such that the strains of algae are 
>hybridized to be robust using only heat and CO2, such as those under 
>development which have been using single cell organisms hybridized 
>from deep ocean vents - then it may be possible to increase the 
>average yield up to nearer to the best case.

That would be a perpetual motion machine! You have to have energy 
input into the system, which can only be sunlight in this case. In 
the ocean vents, the input is geothermal heat.


>If the system were operated on the scale of an average farm - with 
>1000 acres of these algae ponds, then the value of the oil produced 
>at 150,000 gallons per acre (best case) is at least $300,000,000 . . . .

150,000 gallons per acre per year?!? With 4.3 insolation, an acre 
collects 12 MWh per day, assuming a black hole collector. Multiply by 
365 days per year and you get 4,380 MWh per year. That converts to 
120,000 gallons of gasoline per year, but again, this is not a black 
hole. In real life it converts to 6,000 gallons. (Assuming they have 
a fantastically effective 50% collection and conversion it would be 
60,000 gallons -- still way short of 150,000.)

I did this by several different methods, but you can cheat and 
convert kWh to gallons the easy way here:

http://www.mhi-inc.com/Converter/Energy%20Converter.htm

Also, $300,000,000 divided by 150,000 would be $2,000 per gallon. 
This must mean $300 million for the 1000 acres, and the writer 
assumes gasoline is worth $2 per gallon, or $84 per barrel.

Actually, gasoline is worth about $1 per gallon wholesale, and you 
get only 5%, so it comes to $7,500 per acre ($7.5 million for the 
1,000 acres.) The best legal cash crop in the world today is tobacco, 
which is worth about $2,000 to $4,000 per acre, so this is pretty darn good.

Bear in mind that coal cost about 6 times cheaper than oil per BTU of 
heat, so if you burn the oil in the generator, instead of using it 
for transportation fuel, the cash value per acre falls to about 
$1,300 per year. However, no one in the U.S. would burn oil to 
generate electricity.

- Jed

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Subject: [Vo]: Will it Play in Peoria?
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Digressing even further into speculation on the bio-economics of 
alternative energy solutions (closer to being carbon-neutral) ... and 
considering those which are available on a near-term horizon, needing no 
further major technological breakthroughs...

Let's say you operate a coal-burning steam plant which supplies 
electricity to an average size city, like Peoria.

If there are 100,000 customers (homes and businesses) and each is 
spending one thousand-per for power, then you - and the public utility- 
which owns the distribution and billing system will split the 
$100,000,000 in revenue - and the split is probably close to 50/50.

A coal power plant typically would spend half of its net income for fuel 
and coal is cheap in Illinois - less than $40 per ton, so this plant 
might be buying $25 million of coal (600,000+ tons) with which to 
convert at about 40% efficiency into one gigawatt hour - to get the $100 
million in revenue (at a dime per kWhr).

Since the carbon picks up two oxygens, when burned - the plant gives off 
over 2 million tons of CO2 and lots of waste heat (gigawatt+) and lots 
of noxious (or yummy) ash, NOx and sulfur.

Enter a biotech company.

At this point what was formerly waste - the CO2 becomes the power 
plant's BIGGEST ASSET !!

Since Peoria has a river (the Illinois) which has plenty of 'nutritious' 
water (i.e. funky, which algae love), and if the plant has a few 
thousand acres of buffer, or can buy an adjoining farm, then perhaps at 
least one thousand can be put into algae farming.

How does all of this look on the bottom line?

If the plant can convert the waste heat and exhaust using solar in the 
daytime, and only heat at night - then they can convert the 2 million 
tons of CO2 which they emit plus what extra 'raw material' is normally 
in air (since the natural CO2 over a thousand acres to a height of 10 
meters, say) is substantial and therefor the amount of algae (a 
hybridized oil-bearing strain) which can be derived from this is in the 
range of 50,000,000 gallons. There will also be about 75,000 tons of 
non-oil biomass left over, which can be burned in place of some of the coal.

Move onto the bottom line then, and the plant has increased its revenue 
from $50 million for the electricity sold to the utility fully 
threefold- to $150,000,000 including the value of the biodiesel, which 
is about what would be used locally - if all the private and commercial 
transportation in that area converted to biodiesel - and at the same 
time has reduced its cost for coal by 15% since it is burning the 
biomass left over from the oil extraction.

Of course, the capital costs of installing the plumbing, algae 
harvesting, and oil extraction equipment must be depreciated, as well as 
the increased labor costs - but unemployment is a problem there as it is 
rust-belt so the operator could probably get the city to guarantee loans.

ERGO - even in Peroia, this concept "will play"... rather loudly one 
suspects ...(once the novelty of the whole idea sinks in).

Jones

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Oh come now, that's absurd. Let us have a reality check here please! 
> Let's assume the system is a black hole that absorbs every joule of 
> sunlight and converts it into oil.

> 1 acre = 4,047 m^2.


Your logical error here --and it invalidates your whole argument is the 
assumption that algae are merely converting sunlight into energy. Wrong.

Or should I say partially wrong. Sunlight is a catalyst for growth and 
is advantageous, but single-cell life will proliferate in total darkness 
with only heat and CO2.

The "photo" in photosynthesis means "photonic" but heat (IR) is also 
photonic and heat has been totally neglected in your argument.

Which is to be expected, since most of your mindset is based on the 
erroneous conclusions of whats-his-name, and he fell prey to the same 
logical error.

Jones

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Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 12:03:30 -0400
To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality check, please
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Jones Beene wrote:

>Your logical error here --and it invalidates your whole argument is 
>the assumption that algae are merely converting sunlight into energy. Wrong.
>
>Or should I say partially wrong. Sunlight is a catalyst for growth 
>and is advantageous, but single-cell life will proliferate in total 
>darkness with only heat and CO2

I know that. As you said, that would be for the non-photosynthetic 
species. However, this is not a perpetual motion machine. You cannot 
go indefinitely with no energy inputs. The algae converts waste heat 
back into carbon compounds, recovering some of the lost energy. It is 
waste heat from coal, which is ~60% to ~70% of the starting heat. 
Assume the plants convert 10% of that heat back into carbon 
compounds, which would be phenomenally good. That 6% the waste heat. 
So you are reducing power plant energy consumption by 6%. (I expect 
it would be more like 1.2% but make it 6%.)

That's good, but there are plenty of other ways to improve efficiency 
by that extent, and they cost a lot less. There is no way a 
biological species can convert heat or light into a chemical species 
at better rates than that.

Assume that other species of algae in the same ponds absorb sunlight, 
and you get a better rate of return, although it takes a bigger pond, 
as I noted.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Apr  5 09:07:33 2007
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Will it Play in Peoria?
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Jones Beene wrote:

>Since Peoria has a river (the Illinois) which has plenty of 
>'nutritious' water (i.e. funky, which algae love), and if the plant 
>has a few thousand acres of buffer, or can buy an adjoining farm, 
>then perhaps at least one thousand can be put into algae farming.

I believe it would take more like 10,000 acres for a small sized 250 
MW plant, assuming much of the input energy comes from 
photosynthesis. Otherwise, as I mentioned, you get back at most 6% of 
the energy from coal. I will grant, it shows up as liquid fuel which 
is worth ~6 times more than coal. It may be competitive with coal 
liquefaction and combined cycle generators.

Farmland in Illinois costs between $3,000 and $5,000 per acre (or up 
to $10,000 for prime land), so this would be a $40 million investment 
for the land alone, not to mention the processing equipment. I expect 
the equipment would bring the cost up to $140 to $200 million. That's 
a good deal; a 300 MW combined cycle generator plant costs about $200 
million. However it is not nirvana.

10,000 acres is a lot of land, by the way. The U.S. has roughly 
800,000 MW of coal-fired generators. I think they produce the 
equivalent of around 400,000 MW of nuclear capacity, because they are 
not run at full capacity full-time. Anyway, we are talking about 
something on the order of 3 million acres, or 4,700 square miles. 
Around 2/3rds of the land area of New Jersey.

This is an interesting idea, but it does not help to oversell it. Let 
us not assume that conversion efficiency from sunlight to the final 
oil product is 100% efficient, or that you can run a power plant 
indefinitely without input energy. A more realistic evaluation is 
called for, and whoever wrote that analysis is not good at basic analysis.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality check, please
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I wrote:

>It is waste heat from coal, which is ~60% to ~70% of the starting 
>heat. Assume the plants convert 10% of that heat back into carbon 
>compounds, which would be phenomenally good. That 6% the waste heat.

6% of the starting heat, I mean.

A 6% improvement in coal plant production would extremely valuable. 
Even 1.2% is worth doing. I cannot evaluate whether this method would 
be more cost-effective than other schemes to improve coal plant 
efficiency. Any method you use ends up reducing CO2 emissions. 
Replacing 40-year old coal plants with ultra-modern version will 
probably reduce emissions per MHW by more than 6%, and certainly more 
than 1.2%.


>Assume that other species of algae in the same ponds absorb 
>sunlight, and you get a better rate of return, although it takes a 
>bigger pond, as I noted.

Actually, with heat alone and no photosynthesis, you might pull this 
off with less than 1000 acres.

All of the algae CO2 capture projects that have been implemented 
until now use photosynthesis. The waste heat is used to enhance 
photosynthesis, especially in winter. Some of these projects are on a 
large scale. They reduce collection area by using vertically hung 
plastic bags full of algae glop, rather than flat ponds. Still, none 
of them captures 100% of the light.

- Jed

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> The "photo" in photosynthesis means "photonic" but heat (IR) is also 
> photonic and heat has been totally neglected in your argument.


It has been over two years since photosynthesis experts from Arizona 
State University found and documented photosynthesis taking place deep 
within the Pacific Ocean. Other have claimed this same things for 20 
years going back to Cousteau, but DNA analysis was not available then.

The team isolated a bacterium that doesn't live off sunlight but uses IR 
  coming from hydrothermal vents nearly 8000 ft deep vents off of 
Mexico. Using DNA analysis the team classified the microbe as a member 
of the green sulfur bacteria family. The fact that the organism is 
obligate means it solely relies on photosynthesis to live. "This is 
startling in the sense that you do not expect to find photosynthesis in 
a region of the world that is so completely dark" ....

Coal fired power plants, as it turns out, emit lots of sulfur and other 
ash which is toxic to humans by not to genetically engineered strains. 
They also have copious amounts of excess heat.

Given the profit motive, and the need for such hybridized life-forms to 
flourish on what was formerly considered as waste, does anyone really 
doubt that this discovery has not already been put to use for 
engineering genetically modified biota, producing biofuels?

Jones

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Apr  5 10:32:46 2007
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality check, please
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I wrote:

>The algae converts waste heat back into carbon compounds, recovering 
>some of the lost energy.

That is stupid way to express the idea. It should be:

The algae uses IR from the waste heat to synthesize carbon compounds, 
converting some waste heat back into high-grade potential chemical energy.

It is unclear to me what the overall efficiency of this conversion 
process is. For plants using white sunlight, it is on the order of 1% 
or 2% as I said. For lettuce provided with only PAR in ideal growing 
conditions at the Japanese food factory, it can go up to ~15%, but 
you have to convert all of the light into the right wavelength.

One source says: "The chlorosome of vent-dwelling green sulfur 
bacteria makes them the world champions at garnering photons." I 
assume that means it is somewhere up around 5% or 10%, but I do not 
know. Looking up green-sulfur bacteria energy efficiency, I found 
some sources that say:

"The efficiency of energy transfer from carotenoid to 
bacteriochlorophyll a in the RC core complex was 23% at 6 K, and from 
the FMO-protein to the core it was 35%. . . ." I assume this 
describes a multi-stage process with 8% efficiency overall.

In 1952, someone concluded: "These results are considered as support 
for the view that also in the bacterial photosyntheses the primary 
photochemical reaction consists in the photolysis of H2O, and that 
the chemical energy released during the oxidation of the electron 
donor is not utilized for CO2 assimilation. Hence the photosynthetic 
processes of the green sulfur bacteria are thermodynamically less 
efficient than is green plant photosynthesis."

By the way, the initial "excitron" capture phase for any 
photosynthetic process is astoundingly efficient. If only we could 
make thermoelectric generators this good!

These bacteria tolerate remarkably high temperatures.

- Jed

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Subject: [Vo]: Approaches for biological and biomimetic energy conversion
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Now, here is a good paper -- which I hope is=20
technically accurate -- that explains a lot about=20
photosynthesis and plant efficiency:

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/103/14/5251

David A. LaVan and Jennifer N. Cha, "Approaches=20
for biological and biomimetic energy conversion," PNAS

QUOTES:

"The average solar radiation available for a=20
flat-plate collector in the U.S. is 5 kW=B7h/m^2=20
per day (1 kW=B7h =3D 3.6 x 10^6 J). Conservatively,=20
100 million residences, each with an available=20
roof area of 90 m^2, receive 5 x 10^19 J of solar=20
energy, which is equal to half of the annual=20
energy consumption in the U.S. Typical=20
commercially available PV cells offer nominal=20
efficiencies of 15%, with higher levels=20
attainable up to a theoretical efficiency for=20
silicon PV cells of 32%; however, a significant=20
fraction of the installation costs are related to=20
infrastructure, such as supporting framework,=20
wiring, power inverters, and grid connections.=20
For example, in a study published in 2003 of a=20
35-kW PV array (2), the total reported cost was=20
$239,945 ($6.86/W), with infrastructure=20
comprising 35=9640% of the total amount. This=20
system saved $2,678 per year in energy costs=20
compared with the preinstallation expenditures.=20
If, hypothetically, the same installation could=20
be made with cells at 1/10 the current price and=20
32% efficiency but the same infrastructure costs,=20
the system would cost $100,000 and save $8,000=20
per year. Based on these values, it is apparent=20
that improving efficiency and reducing device=20
costs is vital to using PV technologies but that=20
addressing infrastructure costs will also be necessary. . . ."

". . . For comparison, the high-energy photons in=20
the UV region have energies in the range of=20
3.10=964.28 eV. The difference in energy between=20
the absorbed photon and the electron donor is=20
lost as heat, just as the excess energy is lost=20
when a high-energy photon is absorbed by a=20
silicon PV cell. Most plants are not able to deal=20
with the excess energy of UV photons and often do=20
not absorb them at all. If these high-energy=20
photons were absorbed, they might reduce the=20
genetic stability of the plant's genome (6),=20
destroy the light-harvesting complex (7), or=20
induce apoptotic-like (programmed cell death)=20
changes (8). Photons of lower energies are also=20
not used for photosynthesis. It is possible to=20
calculate the energy efficiency of green plants,=20
given the spectral distribution of light at the=20
Earth's surface; the net energy has been shown to=20
have an upper bound of 9.2% (9). Because some of=20
this energy is consumed by the plant, a maximum=20
net efficiency of 5% is commonly reported (9=9611)."

I have seen estimates of 1% to 2% for plants in=20
natural, year round conditions. This is not far=20
from the 5% to 9% for ideal conditions. The 1% is=20
for plants that grow in deserts and other harsh=20
environments. My estimate of 15% for the Japanese=20
food factory was with PAR light only, not natural=20
light. I assume this 9% applies to natural light.

This paper does not mention green sulfur bacteria.

- Jed

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I believe it would take more like 10,000 acres ... Farmland
in Illinois costs between $3,000 and $5,000... so this would
be a $40 million investment for the land alone, processing
equipment would bring the cost up to $140 to $200 million.


That is probably fairly accurate in sum, maybe even on the low side for 
the equipment but high side for the needed amount of land... but it 
still makes for an enticing proposition, especially in the larger 
geopolitical picture.

Even if the whole deal were a 'wash' i.e. a break-even proposition at 
current fuel prices, it does several very important things -- more so in 
the context of there being a thousand Peoria's ...

It puts a cap on continuing price gouging by OPEC and Exxon etc, but 
mostly...

It keeps that money out of the hands of our Arab and OPEC enemies, who 
are known to support Al Quaeda and other terrorists.

And it is more carbon neutral. All-in-all, for everyone except big-oil 
and the War-mongers, it is win-win....

> This is an interesting idea, but it does not help to oversell it. 

...moi ? try to oversell it ? naaaah  ;-)


Jones


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Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 15:01:32 -0400
To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality check, please
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I wrote:

>Actually, with heat alone and no photosynthesis, you might pull this 
>off with less than 1000 acres.

This is inaccurate, as Beene noted. It should say:

With IR photosynthesis alone, and no sunlight photosynthesis, you 
might pull this off with less than 1000 acres.


I wonder if it is possible to efficiently convert full sunlight into 
PAR, and feed only that light to plants? (PAR is 450 and 660 nm light 
-- see my book, p. 131.) Peter Hagelstein once told me that piece of 
colored glass placed over a white lightbulb & reflector -- such as an 
old fashioned traffic light -- does not absorb much energy. In other 
words, most of the photons eventually emerge as green light "after 
bouncing around in there for a while" as he put it.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality check, please
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> With IR photosynthesis alone, and no sunlight photosynthesis, you might 
> pull this off with less than 1000 acres.


The conceptual problem that all of us have - when comparing single cell 
life with "agriculure" is that the two are radically different in a few 
vital categories, yet at the same time very similar is some respects. 
This can lead to false assumptions.

We tend to think too much in terms of either/or. Either the organism 
uses photosynthesis or it uses chemistry - IOW derives energy by 
digesting chemicals which are not fully oxidized.

When using chemical energy and no light - in order to reduce CO2, which 
is the common "raw material" in most life (that is to de-oxidize CO2 and 
reuse the carbon) there would need to be a "free" supply of partially 
reduced chemicals. These need not be carbohydrates - yet in order to 
derive what "seems like" it is more than 100% of the solar energy which 
is falling on the pond, the source is chemical. Coal ash is part of that 
source. NOx is another part of that source. Solar photons can be 
catalytic without being required to be a significant "energy source" in 
themselves.

With Algae (broadened to include all single cell life) there are strains 
which can do many things well, some of then not requiring light - 
including producing enzymes which can derive energy from minerals in the 
exhaust stream from buring coal, including sulfur, iron, silicates, 
phosphates and calcites. These minerals have already been partially or 
fully reduced by the combustion itself, and they have plenty of "free" 
energy to be harnessed by algae which does not require sunlight.

A ton of smokestack effluent might have 10% of more partially reduced 
minerals and soot, including significant amounts of NOx if hight 
temperature combustion is allowed. The nitrogen oxides, in particular, 
also have energy content to add into the mix, in addition to the 
nitrogen needed for proteins. Many of these could be transitory.

All in all, it may be possible for a pond to produce what appears to be 
more net energy of biofuel - than if 100% of the solar energy falling on 
it were converted into that fuel.

That is true - even if in fact only 5% of the solar photons were being 
actually converted. For this to happen the other 95+% which gives the 
appearance of "too much efficiency" must be coming from a combination of 
chemicals in the ash, NOx and waste heat energy. The solar would be 
catalytic - not primary energy.

After all - only one kilowatt of solar per meter^2 on average may fall 
on the pond over daylight but 50 kilowatts of heat energy may be 
dissipated by the same area over the 24 hour day ... maybe not in the 
pond configuration but in the tube setup used by MIT.

The beauty of all of this is that the very things which we do not want 
in the air we breath are what the algae "want" in order to double their 
mass every few hours.

Jones



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A bit too hasty on this:

> After all - only one kilowatt of solar per meter^2 on average may fall 
> on the pond over daylight but 50 kilowatts of heat energy may be 
> dissipated by the same area over the 24 hour day ... maybe not in the 
> pond configuration but in the tube setup used by MIT.

50 kilowatts per hour would be too much and 50 kWhr per day would be too 
little. Frankly, too little factual detail is known to even guess, and 
that was a poor guess at that ...

.... but planners and alternative energy advocates must give the reports 
which have been published the benefit of the doubt.

There is a likelihood, based on these reports, that what appears to be 
in excess of 100% of the solar energy falling on a pond area is being 
converted into biofuel, and that could be true even if only 5% of the 
photons were being utilized.

Jones

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Apr  5 13:44:25 2007
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 06:44:12 +1000
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In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Thu, 5 Apr 2007 07:10:16 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>On 4/4/07, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>> With a little bit of luck, we'll have commercial fusion power by then,=
 and they
>> will have closed down altogether.
>
>With which technology?

The one I'm designing right now. :)

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation,
Cooperation (communism) provides the means.

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Apr  5 14:05:13 2007
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 07:04:57 +1000
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 05 Apr 2007 09:40:53 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>>That makes sense for an electric power plant, where the cost of capital
>>equipment is well known, but not much sense for e.g. CRUDE =
OIL/GASOLINE, where
>>the cost can the calculated any of a thousand different ways,=20
>>depending on what
>>one decides to include or leave out.
>
>I am sure industry experts have a standard metric that covers most=20
>costs. It would be impossible to run an oil business if there were a=20
>thousand different ways to estimate costs. As shown in footnote 14,=20
>the $1000 rough estimate is based on a DOE "staff communication." I=20
>am sure it is not $100 and not $10,000.
>
>- Jed

This is supposed to be a global measure of cost efficiency, however in =
order to
do that for the oil industry, one would have to know how much had been =
invested
in the oil industry - ever, and how much of the that sum actually went =
into
equipment, and how much of that equipment was still in use, and that on a=
 global
scale. Good luck trying to get hold of those numbers. Then take into
consideration that the rate of oil delivery is not only determined by =
production
capacity, but also by other factors, e.g. politics and weather.

A cost / kWh is easy to calculate - just use the price of oil - but a =
"power
plant" cost is near impossible.

One could look at it on a cost/oil rig basis, but these vary =
considerably,
depending on lots of factors. A.o. location, weather, operator, whether =
or not
oil is found soon or late while drilling, or at all, the size of the find=
 etc.
etc.

In short, I find the comparison given in the diagrams only of value in =
that it
provides comparative conversion efficiencies for various technologies.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation,
Cooperation (communism) provides the means.

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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza
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Robin wrote..

>> With a little bit of luck, we'll have commercial fusion power by then, 
>> and they
>> will have closed down altogether.

Terry asked...
>With which technology?

Robin replied..

The one I'm designing right now. :)

Howdy Vorts..

Better ask Japan Inc. before you spend too much money making one Robin. 
Japan Inc. has a near lock on future Nuke plant  equipment now adays.
What kind of lock?.. Try getting any new electric generating plant plan 
approved for liscensing and construction regardless of the fuel source, 
coal, nuke or Robin's design. Ask TXU Dallas.. Somebody did a number on them 
until Goldman-Sachs was called in on "how to get things done in the real 
world".
Lotsa plants in design, few in costruction.. won't be in time for the 
electric power crunch coming to USA.
Keep a bicycle handy.
Richard

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Subject: [Vo]: Power Paint
Status: RO
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No, I did not mean Power Point:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/thepress/4017784a11.html

Solar power breakthrough at Massey

By MERVYN DYKES - Manawatu Standard | Thursday, 5 April 2007

COLOUR THEIR FUTURE GREEN: Wayne Campbell, left, and Ashton Partridge
with a tiny demonstration solar panel filled with synthetic dye. Not
only is it environmentally friendly and capable of being made in New
Zealand, but it costs a fraction of the price of silicon cells.

This means teenagers could one day be wearing jackets that will
recharge their equivalents of cellphones, iPods and other battery-
driven devices.

The breakthrough is a development of the university's Nanomaterials
Research Centre and has attracted world-wide interest already -
particularly from Australia and Japan.

<more>

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Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 08:03:08 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
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Subject: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push
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For those who have not seen it, Xavier (Blaze Labs) posted a further 
strong detail towards a radical change in POV (point of view) towards 
our understanding of gravity.

Mainstream science (Newton, Einstein, etc) is firmly on the opposite 
side of this issue, so to speak -- demonstrating once again, that YES, 
it is easily possible even in the enlightened year of 2007 for a large 
percentage - perhaps upwards to 95-99% of all physics PhDs to be totally 
in error on a basic premise underlying all of nature.

Not that LENR advocates occasionally need that kind of reassurance ;-)

New hard evidence in favor of electromagnetic radiation pressure theory 
of gravity has just been received from Glen F. Perry's data analysis of 
data logged from the Postdam super conducting gravimeter.

Needless to say - this is also encouraging news for ZPE advocates and 
experimenters.

Look at the data of the sun's gravitation pulse train as it gets sharply
attenuated to zero at midnight by earth's core, when the sun is 
completed counter-aligned (opposite) with the earth's core.

Of course neither Newton's nor Eintein's theory can explain this data, 
or at least if they can - such an explanation is not yet forthcoming.

http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp11.asp

Jones

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Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 12:24:58 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push
Cc: ibison@earthtech.org
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This is remarkable!  This should be making headlines.

Ibison just published on the subject:

http://earthtech.org/publications/ibison_PLA_emergent_gravity.pdf

Terry


On 4/6/07, Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:
> For those who have not seen it, Xavier (Blaze Labs) posted a further
> strong detail towards a radical change in POV (point of view) towards
> our understanding of gravity.
>
> Mainstream science (Newton, Einstein, etc) is firmly on the opposite
> side of this issue, so to speak -- demonstrating once again, that YES,
> it is easily possible even in the enlightened year of 2007 for a large
> percentage - perhaps upwards to 95-99% of all physics PhDs to be totally
> in error on a basic premise underlying all of nature.
>
> Not that LENR advocates occasionally need that kind of reassurance ;-)
>
> New hard evidence in favor of electromagnetic radiation pressure theory
> of gravity has just been received from Glen F. Perry's data analysis of
> data logged from the Postdam super conducting gravimeter.
>
> Needless to say - this is also encouraging news for ZPE advocates and
> experimenters.
>
> Look at the data of the sun's gravitation pulse train as it gets sharply
> attenuated to zero at midnight by earth's core, when the sun is
> completed counter-aligned (opposite) with the earth's core.
>
> Of course neither Newton's nor Eintein's theory can explain this data,
> or at least if they can - such an explanation is not yet forthcoming.
>
> http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp11.asp
>
> Jones
>
>

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From: Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push
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<BODY><P></P><B>----- Original Message -----</B>
<P></P><B>From</B>: Jones Beene &lt;jonesb9@pacbell.net&gt;
<P></P><B>Date</B>: Friday, April 6, 2007 11:03 am
<P></P><B>Subject</B>: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push
<P></P>
<P></P>
<P>&gt; For those who have not seen it, Xavier (Blaze Labs) posted a <BR>&gt; further <BR>&gt; strong detail towards a radical change in POV (point of view) <BR>&gt; towards <BR>&gt; our understanding of gravity. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Mainstream science (Newton, Einstein, etc) is firmly on the <BR>&gt; opposite <BR>&gt; side of this issue, so to speak -- demonstrating once again, that <BR>&gt; YES, <BR>&gt; it is easily possible even in the enlightened year of 2007 for a <BR>&gt; large <BR>&gt; percentage - perhaps upwards to 95-99% of all physics PhDs to be <BR>&gt; totally <BR>&gt; in error on a basic premise underlying all of nature. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Not that LENR advocates occasionally need that kind of reassurance <BR>&gt; ;-) <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; New hard evidence in favor of electromagnetic radiation pressure <BR>&gt; theory <BR>&gt; of gravity has just been received from Glen F. Perry's data <BR>&gt; analysis of <BR>&gt; data logged from the Postdam super conducting gravimeter. <BR
<P>Newton's and Einstein's theory may be wrong&nbsp;and the push theory of gravity</P>
<P>may be able to explain _this_ data, but the push theory has some serious theoretical</P>
<P>difficulties to overcome. If gravity is a push why don't the planets spiral into the sun</P>
<P>because whatever is doing the pushing would also have a drag effect on the planets.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Harry</P></BODY>

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Subject: [Vo]: gravity anomaly measured
Status: RO
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<BODY><P></P>
<P><B>gravity anomaly measured</B></P>
<P><STRONG>Harry</STRONG></P>
<P><B>----- Original Message -----</B> </P>
<P></P><B>From</B>: Terry Blanton 
<P></P><STRONG>Date</STRONG>: Friday, April 6, 2007 12:24 pm 
<P></P><B>Subject</B>: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push 
<P></P>
<P></P>&gt; This is remarkable! This should be making headlines. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Ibison just published on the subject: <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; http://earthtech.org/publications/ibison_PLA_emergent_gravity.pdf <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Terry <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; On 4/6/07, Jones Beene&nbsp; wrote: <BR>&gt; &gt; For those who have not seen it, Xavier (Blaze Labs) posted a further <BR>&gt; &gt; strong detail towards a radical change in POV (point of view) <BR>&gt; towards&gt; our understanding of gravity. <BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Mainstream science (Newton, Einstein, etc) is firmly on the opposite <BR>&gt; &gt; side of this issue, so to speak -- demonstrating once again, <BR>&gt; that YES, <BR>&gt; &gt; it is easily possible even in the enlightened year of 2007 for a <BR>&gt; large&gt; percentage - perhaps upwards to 95-99% of all physics PhDs <BR>&gt; to be totally <BR>&gt; &gt; in error on a basic premise underlying all of nature. <BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Not that LENR advocates occas

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Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 10:00:59 -0700
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Harry Veeder wrote:

> the push theory has some serious theoretical difficulties
to overcome. If gravity is a push why don't the planets spiral
into the sun because whatever is doing the pushing would also
have a drag effect on the planets.


I am not well-versed in the details, but do have 'cut-and-paste'=20
functionality ;-) ... but the superficial answer is that the drag effect =

in one vector is balanced by a boost in the other IF the system lacks an =

*arrow of time* WOW (am I mis-stating that conclusion)!

Are we essentially in a "timeless" orbit?

Here is the first paragraph from the Ibison paper, which Terry mentions, =

and Xavier has his own explanation, which seems a bit less provocative:

"This document presents some results that provide support for the=20
existence of time-symmetric electromagnetic interactions involving equal =

positive combinations of advanced and retarded fields. According to=20
common experience however, electromagnetic interactions are exclusively=20
retarded. Retardation establishes an electromagnetic arrow of time,=20
which, coincidentally, agrees with the thermodynamic arrow of time =96 th=
e=20
direction of increasing entropy. Since these two could be interrelated,
a conservative application of a time-symmetric theory with no danger of=20
conflict with observation should be confined to systems lacking any=20
arrow of time =96 thermodynamic or electromagnetic." END of Ibison quote

WOW. Those are some heavy duty implications, no? ... or else, this=20
proves the point as stated at the start: "I am not well-versed in the=20
details"

=2E..yet

Jones




From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Apr  6 10:44:59 2007
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Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 12:44:28 -0500
From: "Steven Vincent Johnson" <ow01@voyager.net>
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Reply-To: svj@orionworks.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push
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Interesting.

According to this timely evidence would it be correct to postulate that the Casmir Force is nothing more than a manifestation of the exact same "force" as described in Ibson's work, but just on a much smaller scale?

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

> 
> Harry Veeder wrote:
> 
> > the push theory has some serious theoretical difficulties
> to overcome. If gravity is a push why don't the planets spiral
> into the sun because whatever is doing the pushing would also
> have a drag effect on the planets.
> 
> 
> I am not well-versed in the details, but do have 'cut-and-paste' 
> functionality ;-) ... but the superficial answer is that the drag effect 
> in one vector is balanced by a boost in the other IF the system lacks an 
> *arrow of time* WOW (am I mis-stating that conclusion)!
> 
> Are we essentially in a "timeless" orbit?
> 
> Here is the first paragraph from the Ibison paper, which Terry mentions, 
> and Xavier has his own explanation, which seems a bit less provocative:
> 
> "This document presents some results that provide support for the 
> existence of time-symmetric electromagnetic interactions involving equal 
> positive combinations of advanced and retarded fields. According to 
> common experience however, electromagnetic interactions are exclusively 
> retarded. Retardation establishes an electromagnetic arrow of time, 
> which, coincidentally, agrees with the thermodynamic arrow of time  the 
> direction of increasing entropy. Since these two could be interrelated,
> a conservative application of a time-symmetric theory with no danger of 
> conflict with observation should be confined to systems lacking any 
> arrow of time  thermodynamic or electromagnetic." END of Ibison quote
> 
> WOW. Those are some heavy duty implications, no? ... or else, this 
> proves the point as stated at the start: "I am not well-versed in the 
> details"
> 
> ...yet
> 
> Jones
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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Interesting.<br />
<br />
According to this timely evidence would it be correct to postulate that the=
 Casmir Force is nothing more than a manifestation of the exact same "force=
" as described in Ibson's work, but just on a much smaller scale?<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
Steven Vincent Johnson<br />
www.OrionWorks.com<br />
<br />
> <br />
> Harry Veeder wrote:<br />
> <br />
> > the push theory has some serious theoretical difficulties<br />
> to overcome. If gravity is a push why don't the planets spiral<br />
> into the sun because whatever is doing the pushing would also<br />
> have a drag effect on the planets.<br />
> <br />
> <br />
> I am not well-versed in the details, but do have 'cut-and-paste' <br />
> functionality ;-) ... but the superficial answer is that the drag effect =
<br />
> in one vector is balanced by a boost in the other IF the system lacks an =
<br />
> *arrow of time* WOW (am I mis-stating that conclusion)!<br />
> <br />
> Are we essentially in a "timeless" orbit?<br />
> <br />
> Here is the first paragraph from the Ibison paper, which Terry mentions, =
<br />
> and Xavier has his own explanation, which seems a bit less provocative:<b=
r />
> <br />
> "This document presents some results that provide support for the <br />
> existence of time-symmetric electromagnetic interactions involving equal =
<br />
> positive combinations of advanced and retarded fields. According to <br /=
>
> common experience however, electromagnetic interactions are exclusively <=
br />
> retarded. Retardation establishes an electromagnetic arrow of time, <br /=
>
> which, coincidentally, agrees with the thermodynamic arrow of time =96 th=
e <br />
> direction of increasing entropy. Since these two could be interrelated,<b=
r />
> a conservative application of a time-symmetric theory with no danger of <=
br />
> conflict with observation should be confined to systems lacking any <br /=
>
> arrow of time =96 thermodynamic or electromagnetic." END of Ibison quote<=
br />
> <br />
> WOW. Those are some heavy duty implications, no? ... or else, this <br />
> proves the point as stated at the start: "I am not well-versed in the <br=
 />
> details"<br />
> <br />
> ...yet<br />
> <br />
> Jones<br />
> <br />
> <br />
> <br />
> <br />
> <br />

--=_3874f760ccf2d1dadc9634b8940d23b2--

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Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 10:51:59 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
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Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:
> Interesting.
> 
> According to this timely evidence would it be correct to postulate that 
> the Casmir Force is nothing more than a manifestation of the exact same 
> "force" as described in Ibson's work, but just on a much smaller scale?


If so - it presents the possible conundrum of a ZPE device which works 
on earth but would not work in space... (if the device 'requires' an 
'arrow of time' for functionality - instead of nullifying same).

Hope that outcome does not eliminate any chance of NASA funding <g>

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Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 13:57:44 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Vo]: Fwd: Gravity is a Push
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Indeed the Earthtech site says "submitted".

Terry

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: michael ibison <ibison@earthtech.org>
Date: Apr 6, 2007 1:46 PM
Subject: RE: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push
To: Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com>


Thank you for this Terry. But the article is not yet published & I am not
confident it will be well-received by Peter Holland at Physics Letters A.

Michael

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>From: Denis Rancourt <dgr@physics.uottawa.ca>
>To: <beaty@chem.washington.edu>
>Subject: Victory in Disciplined Minds case
>Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 23:54:54 -0400
>
>
>Dear fellow physicist,
>
>Your courage to take a public stand on a close-to-home issue has
>won justice for a fired fellow physicist and has promoted free
>expression within the physics community.
>
>Over five years ago we sent you an appeal beginning: "Physics
>Today magazine recently gave a punishing review to a book written
>by physicist Jeff Schmidt..."[1]  For 19 years Jeff was a staff
>editor at our professional journal, Physics Today -- until his
>supervisors saw his book Disciplined Minds.  Based upon examples
>from physics graduate training and beyond, it provocatively
>critiques workplace hierarchy in general and the politically
>subordinate role of people hired to do creative work.[2]  The
>magazine's review: "...[they] fired him."
>
>The resulting appeal to physicists and others landed in fertile
>soil and, through your efforts, justice has finally been done.
>You will not read about it in Physics Today, and so we are
>writing now to give you the story and to thank you for your
>support.
>
>Your public response, from over 35 countries, was unprecedented.
>More than 1000 scientists, activists, and others in many fields
>-- including the largest number of physicists ever to speak out
>on a freedom-of-expression issue in the United States -- sent the
>American Institute of Physics (AIP), which publishes Physics
>Today, strongly worded demands for justice, all now public.[3]  A
>human-rights committee of scientists affiliated with a unit of
>the IEEE investigated and issued a public report[4] condemning
>Jeff's dismissal.
>
>Bringing such public judgment on Jeff's firing was already a form
>of justice because of the toll on AIP's image.  Such punitive
>justice is available to any wronged individual unafraid to go
>public.  Jeff deeply appreciates and thanks you for your
>support.[2]  You can contact him at jeffschmidt@alumni.uci.edu.
>
>*Compensatory justice*
>
>Encouraged by your passionately expressed view that our
>institutions should uphold our community values, we continued the
>campaign for free expression -- with the goal of compensatory
>justice.
>
>We took your protests to the American Physical Society, which
>plays a major role in governing AIP, and asked[5] the
>organization to oppose Jeff's dismissal, as it does when
>dissident physicists outside the United States are punished for
>expressing their views.  APS officials, in what amounts to tacit
>approval of Jeff's firing, refused even to investigate the same
>issue close to home.  This prompted us to urge Jeff to take legal
>action.
>
>Hence, Jeff approached the most prominent Washington, D.C.,
>civil-rights law organization, which, impressed by your protests,
>took the case pro bono publico.  ("That's Latin for 'free,'" says
>Jeff.)  The lawyers filed suit[6] and obtained internal AIP
>documents.  After AIP handed over the embarrassing and
>incriminating documents -- which are now public[7] -- it
>capitulated and signed a legally binding settlement agreement.
>Some highlights:
>
>1.  Payment.  AIP paid Jeff what we estimate[8] to be at least
>half a million dollars.
>
>2.  Public settlement.  AIP agreed to Jeff's demand that the
>settlement agreement be a public document.[9]
>
>3.  Symbolic reinstatement.  AIP reinstated Jeff to his position
>at Physics Today magazine.[10]  A few hours later Jeff resigned.
>
>4.  Public statement by AIP.  The American Institute of Physics
>publicly acknowledged that Jeff's supervisors and others praised
>his work and that AIP fired him for his provocative
>expression.[11]
>
>5.  Employment reference.  AIP has given Jeff a positive
>reference letter.[12]
>
>6.  Discrimination remediation.  While employed at Physics Today,
>Jeff led a contentious effort to force the magazine to change its
>long-standing pattern of hiring and training only whites as
>editors, and to live up to its claim of being an affirmative-
>action employer.  These actions were part of the expression for
>which Jeff was fired.[6,13]  Thus, to settle the case, AIP
>agreed[14] to...
>
>..Support the National Society of Black Physicists (NSBP) and
>the National Society of Hispanic Physicists (NSHP) in becoming a
>member society of AIP and appointing a member of the AIP
>governing board.
>
>..Encourage each of the ten AIP member societies to work with
>the NSBP and NSHP diversity council.
>
>..Offer a science-writing course at an NSBP annual conference,
>which will increase the pool of talented minority-group editors.
>
>..Maintain a program of mandatory diversity training for all AIP
>employees.
>
>*Freedom of expression not embraced*
>
>Although AIP's repressive behavior backfired, the organization
>has not welcomed free expression within the physics community.
>To settle the case, AIP demanded various censorships, including
>deleting text from critical articles published by the American
>Physical Society and by the Canadian Undergraduate Physics
>Journal.[15]  AIP's behavior prompted the Canadian Undergraduate
>Physics Journal to lodge a strong, public protest.[16]  It is
>posted at
><http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sanjoy/schmidt/chronology/aipletter.pdf>
>
>After the settlement, the American Institute of Physics,
>represented by the notorious union-busting law firm Jackson
>Lewis, slapped Jeff with a half-million-dollar legal action[17]
>to silence him and to prevent physicists from discussing the
>settlement.  AIP claimed that snippets of text posted at the
>disciplinedminds.com website (such as the two words, "symbolic
>reinstatement," and the five words, "Schmidt's concessions to
>AIP's demands") each did $20,000 worth of damage to AIP, for a
>total of half a million dollars.  AIP told Jeff that it would
>stop its legal action if he removes those phrases from the web
>and refrains from "all commentary regarding the settlement."  We
>therefore regard AIP's legal filing as a SLAPP action (strategic
>lawsuit against public participation), one whose primary purpose
>is to stifle discussions of public interest.
>
>We found this repressive behavior unacceptable for an institution
>of physics, which should show the public that physicists come to
>the truth through free discussion, not through censorship and
>intimidation.  We wrote to AIP twice[18] demanding that it drop
>its SLAPP action and reverse the censorship of articles published
>by the American Physical Society and the Canadian Undergraduate
>Physics Journal.
>
>AIP has not undone the censorship or compensated Jeff for the
>legal costs of defending against its SLAPP action, but -- in
>another victory for free expression -- AIP announced, in its
>response to our letters, that it would stop pursuing the legal
>action.
>
>*We would like to hear from you*
>
>Thank you for taking a public stand.
>
>We hope that you will share your thoughts with us.  Please share
>your thoughts with AIP too.  (Send us a copy and, with your
>permission, we'll post it on the web.)  Do let us know if you
>would like to know about further developments in this case or
>about similar cases.  You can reach us at DGRancourt@aol.com
>(Denis Rancourt), and you can reach AIP at millie@mgm.mit.edu
>(AIP governing board chair Mildred Dresselhaus).
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Denis Rancourt for
>
>Fay Dowker, Physics Department, Imperial College London, UK
>Sanjoy Mahajan, Physics Department, University of Cambridge, UK
>Talat Rahman, Physics Department, University of Central Florida
>Denis Rancourt, Physics Department, University of Ottawa, Canada
>George Reiter, Physics Department, University of Houston
>
>-------------------------
>
>References
>(Copy addresses into browser)
>
>1. <http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/dissent/documents/Schmidt/protests.htm>
>2. <http://disciplinedminds.com>
>3. <http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/dissent/documents/Schmidt/index.htm>
>4. <http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/dissent/documents/Schmidt/investigation.htm>
>5. <http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sanjoy/schmidt/chronology/APSXappealX--Xsarachik.html>
>6. <http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/dissent/documents/Schmidt/complaint.htm>
>7. <http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sanjoy/schmidt/discovery/>
>8. <http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sanjoy/schmidt/coverage/sgr2006.pdf>
>9. <http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sanjoy/schmidt/>
>10. <http://disciplinedminds.com/settlement-a-performed.pdf>
>11. <http://disciplinedminds.tripod.com/settlement.htm/>
>12. <http://disciplinedminds.com/settlement-c.pdf>
>13. <http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sanjoy/schmidt/discovery/07%20(D1457-1458).PDF>
>14. <http://www.washlaw.org/news/releases/032006.htm>
>15. <http://disciplinedminds.tripod.com/>
>16. <http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sanjoy/schmidt/chronology/aipletter.pdf>
>17. <http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sanjoy/schmidt/slapp/slapp.pdf>
>18. <http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sanjoy/schmidt/slapp/anti-slapp1.pdf>
>and <http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sanjoy/schmidt/slapp/anti-slapp2.txt>

((((((((((((((((((((((( (  (    (o)    )  ) )))))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty              http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty/
Research Engineer             UW Chem Dept,  Bagley Hall RM74
beaty@chem.washington.edu     Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700
ph:206-543-6195 fax:206-685-8665

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Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2007 15:48:46 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
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Subject: [Vo]: Cruise ship sinks
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Yesterday in the Aegean Sea, the cruise ship Sea Diamond, with nearly 
1,600 people aboard, rammed into a bed of rocks. It sank about a mile 
offshore 18 hours. Two people are unaccounted for and presumed 
drowned. With its usual attention to detail, the New York Times reported:

"The Sea Diamond rammed an underwater bed of rocks in the island's 
lagoon, formed by a giant volcanic explosion about 3,500 years ago, 
as it was approaching the main island's harbor to dock."

So those rocks have been there for a long time. Plus, people have 
been sailing ships for a long time. Compared to the land, the sea is 
inherently dangerous and unnatural for us. Many ships have sunk, so 
we have probably devoted as much effort to ensuring marine safety as 
any similar effort such as preventing fires, railroad accidents, or 
airplane crashes. We have watertight doors, GPS navigation and a host 
of other technologies to prevent this kind of thing . . . yet in 
broad daylight, in a harbor that has probably been in use for 
thousands of years, a ship moving at slow speed was sunk by a collision.

What do we learn from this?

1. Most accidents of this nature are caused by human error. The cause 
has not been reported yet, but I expect that the captain or crew are 
at fault. Often the design of the machine plays a role, as it did in 
the Three Mile Island meltdown.

2. No technology is perfect, or perfectly safe. Anyone who thinks 
that fission reactors, jumbo jets and the like can be made 100% 
reliable does not understand machines, or people. Ships will sink and 
airplanes will crash. Perhaps in the distant future, hundreds or 
thousands of years from now, when these machines are operated by 
super-intelligent robots only, the chances of an accident will be so 
low we will go for centuries without a casualty. But as long as 
people operate machines, there will be drastic failures.

Cold fusion was announced on March 23, 1989. The next day, March 24, 
the Exxon Valdez struck a reef in Alaska and caused the largest oil 
spill in history. One of the many potential benefits of cold fusion 
is that it works on a small scale, and small-scale technology does 
not usually cause large scale disasters. The damage caused by a 
failure is usually limited to one or two victims, rather than 
hundreds. Wind turbines sometimes burn or fall over, but such 
failures seldom endanger many people or cost a lot of money, whereas 
the accidents at coal, gas or nuclear power plants have been the most 
expensive in history.

Some small-scale technology does sometimes cause widespread havoc. 
Automobile accidents kill far more people than large-scale train or 
aircraft accidents ever did. Pasteurization was developed in the 
1860s, but milk in New York City was not pasteurized until 1917, and 
in the ensuing 50 years it probably killed tens of thousands of 
babies and small children, including one of my great-grandmother's 
babies. It is conceivable that cheap & easy-to-make cold fusion 
powered nuclear bombs will be developed, in which case cold fusion 
might cause more harm than all previous technology combined. I think 
that is unlikely, and I hope it does not happen. I think it is one of 
the risks we must take in order to survive and preserve the earth.

- Jed

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Subject: RE: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push
Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 15:09:16 -0500
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Hi Terry,

> Ibison just published on the subject:

> http://earthtech.org/publications/ibison_PLA_emergent_gravity.pdf

Personally, I could never trust any paper written in units where c is
arbitrarily taken to be 1.  What's the problem with doing science with a
proper set of units?  Is that another way of saying the theory doesn't work
with proper physics?

But equation 4 catches my eye immediately, too.  How can the square of the E
field be added to the square of the B field when they have different
dimensions, regardless of the system of units?

There are far simpler ways to unify gravity and electromagnetism that uses
proper units and plain Newtonian type algebraic equations.

Dave

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Subject: [Vo]: MagneGas at home
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Has anybody here tried this experiment, yet?
http://jlnlabs.online.fr/bingofuel/html/aquagen.htm

Dave

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Subject: [Vo]: Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday April 6, 2007
Status: RO
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-----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki

>From: What's New <whatsnew@BOBPARK.ORG>
>Sent: Apr 6, 2007 2:29 PM
 To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday April 6, 2007

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 6 Apr 07   Washington, DC

1. LHC TEST: IT WASN'T THE "BIG BANG" THEY WERE LOOKING FOR. 
Intoxicated by the enthusiasm of its builders, WN predicted last
week that protons would circulate in the Large Hadron Collider on
schedule. Alas, a Fermilab-built quadrupole magnet failed a high-
pressure test with a dramatic bang.  That's what tests are for. 
To the chagrin of Fermilab, it was a simple design flaw.  The
magnet will have to be brought to the surface, but there is
optimism that the 23 other magnets like it can be retrofitted in
place.  The LHC may be able to get back on schedule, but the
traditional 3-month winter shutdown may have to be sacrificed.  

2. ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION: THE COURT SOARS INTO THE TMOSPHERE. 
Still one vote short of a rubber stamp, the Supreme Court on
Monday rebuked the Bush Administration for refusing to regulate
greenhouse gases.  It ruled 5-4 that the EPA must either begin
regulating CO2 as an atmospheric pollutant, or declare that CO2
does not threaten humans, which EPA's own scientists dispute. 
The ruling effectively forces EPA to begin regulating tailpipe
emissions, whether it likes it or not.  Over the years, federal
courts have sided with the consensus view of science on issues
ranging from perpetual motion to creationism and pseudoscience,
but any more appointments by Bush could change that. 

3. CLIMATE CHANGE: BLEAK IPCC REPORT RELEASED TODAY IN BRUSSELS. 
Two months ago, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change put
the odds that global warming is anthropogenic as "90% certain"
http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN07/wn020207.html .  The report
released today is titled Impacts, Adaptation, and Vulnerability. 
Science Committee Chairman Bart Gordon (D-TN)says it provides us
with "even higher confidence" of warming.  However, Ralph Hall
(R-TX), ranking Republican on the Committee, says the new report
"illustrates more uncertainty in the scientific community." 
Hmmm.  It was Ralph Hall, you may recall, who supported building
the Space Station because he thought it would "find a cure for
cancer" http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN07/wn020207.html .

4. RUNNING IN PLACE: CAN AN ASTRONAUT FIND A CURE FOR NASA HYPE?
Indian-American astronaut Sunita Williams plans to run the Boston
Marathon on board the ISS.  She's been training on the treadmill
at least 4 times a week for months.  Is that good?  I don't know.
It's not as if she has anything better to do on the ISS.

5. GOD AND SCIENCE: THE SEARCH FOR MEANING IN THE NATURAL WORLD.  
>We got some angry e-mail this week about the line "Better a God
particle than a God."  A gratuitous slap in the face of people of
faith?  Not meant to be, but all of science is built on territory
>once occupied by gods.  Is there some boundary at which science
is supposed to stop?  Keep the letters coming.  We read them all,
and answer as many as we can. 

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
University of Maryland, but they should be.
---
Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org
What's New is moving to a different listserver and our
subscription process has changed. To change your subscription
status please visit this link:
http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Apr  6 20:29:45 2007
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Subject: [Vo]: Gravitational Penumbrae
Status: O
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GRAVITATIONAL PENUMBRAE      APRIL 6, 2007


BACKGROUND

An exploration of the concepts of gravimagnetism were discussed in:

    http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/Gravimagnetism.pdf

and:

    http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GR-and-QM.pdf
    http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/PlankG.pdf
    http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GraviCalcs.pdf
    http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/EarthWobble.pdf

An isomorphism between gravity and electromagnetism was developed.  =20
In this theory of gravimagnetism the graviton is defined as the =20
analog of the virtual photon.  The graviphoton is defined as the =20
analog of the photon.  Gravitational charge, the analog of positive =20
and negative Coulombic charge, is defined as  positive when it is a =20
positive imaginary quantity (contains +i), and negative when it is a =20
negative imaginary quantity (contains -i).   Imaginary here means a =20
quantity containing the imaginary number i, the square root of minus =20
one.  A gravitational field G or gravimagnetic field K are imaginary =20
analogs to the electromagnetic fields E and B.

An electrostatic attraction occurs when a virtual photon is exchanged =20=

between a positive and negative electrostatic charge.  An =20
electrostatic repulsion occurs when a virtual photon is exchanged =20
between like electrostatic charges.   Due to the effect of the i =20
coefficient in gravitational fields, a gravitational repulsion occurs =20=

when a graviton is exchanged between a positive and negative =20
gravitational charge.  A gravitational attraction occurs when a =20
graviton is exchanged between like gravitational charges.

By the isomorphism, every conceivable electromagnetic quantity, =20
relationship, and law has a precisely defined gravimagnetic =20
equivalent.  The theory of gravimagnetism leads to many fully =20
quantified and verifiable implications, some of which differ from =20
those of general relativity.  For example:

1.   Gravity diminishes with distance due to graviton red shift due =20
to increased relative and receding velocity with distance (analogous =20
to the regular Hubble shift.)  This may in part account for dark energy.

2.   Gravimagnetic fields can in part account for  excess galactic =20
forces and precession of the equinox, and errors in estimation of =20
distant mass values.

3.   Virtual photons carry no gravitational charge, thus black holes =20
can exhibit electromagnetic effects beyond  the event horizon.

4.   A black hole above a threshold mass can emit matter carrying =20
gravitational charge opposed to the charge of that black hole.  The =20
effect of the black hole=92s  gravimagnetic and electromagnetic fields =20=

on such an emission would be to form it into polar jets.

5.   Parts of space, especially near super massive black holes,  may =20
be filled with mass containing negative gravitational charge.  This =20
could account in part for dark energy and large apparent voids in space.

6.   Newton=92s f=3Dma contains no imaginary portions, thus inertia is =20=

primarily an electromagnetic effect.

7.   The gravimagnetic analog to Plank=92s constant,  h_g =3D -h,  =20
unifies gravity and electromagnetism, and determines the momentum =20
carried by graviphotons, etc. However, gravimagnetic theory also =20
permanently dis-unifies gravity and electromagnetism in the sense =20
that the forces exist in differing dimensions and have differing =20
charges and charge carriers.

8.  Real photons carry gravitational charge, otherwise black holes =20
could not exist.


OBJECTIVE

It is of interest here to discuss the implications of gravimagnetic =20
theory with regard to gravity shielding effects.

GRAVIMAGNETIC SHIELDING

When a graviton is exchanged between two like gravitational charges =20
an attraction occurs.   This is somewhat counterintuitive in that =20
momentum is exchanged in a direction opposed to that expected based =20
on ordinary momentum.  However, this is not at all unusual in the =20
world of physics, in that virtual photons exchanged between unlike =20
electrostatic charges act in an identical manner.

What is of special interest here is that, to have any effect, the =20
graviton is absorbed.  It doesn=92t continue forward on its way.  This =20=

leads to the necessity that masses  have gravitational penumbrae.   A =20=

mass m2 between two other masses m1 and m3 must in part shield m1 and =20=

m3 from each other.  The magnitude of the graviton absorption from =20
mass m1 by mass m2 is proportional to the force exerted between mass =20
m1 and m2.


GRAVITATIONAL PENUMBRAE AND DARK ENERGY

Graviton absorption can occur by any particle carrying gravitation =20
charge, including photons.    The greater the distance between two =20
bodies in space, the more matter that exists between them (assuming a =20=

nonzero mass density in space), and the more photon flux that exists =20
between them.  By implication then, the greater the distance between =20
two bodies in space, the less the  gravitational force between them =20
as predicted by Newton.   The reduction in force is proportional to =20
the mass charge density between the two bodies.  This then also =20
accounts in part for dark energy, the apparent reduction of =20
gravitational force between bodies with increasing distance.


POSSIBLE EVIDENCE

Gravitational penumbrae may have been recently observed.  See:

http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp11.asp

The observations provided there may provide some confirmation of =20
gravimagnetism, depending on interpretation and confirmation.

Regards,

Horace Heffner=

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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravitational Penumbrae
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My ISP web service is currently down.

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Subject: [Vo]: Algae ponds
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Hi,

If the ponds are covered with transparent plastic, and inflated with a =
slight
overpressure, then fresh water can be collected as a byproduct.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Apr  7 04:16:28 2007
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Subject: RE: [Vo]: Gravitational Penumbrae
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Hi Horace,

Would you consider gravitational charge to be the same thing as mass?  If
not, why not?

How do you use the term "virtual" such that it applies to the real world?
That is, how can an object exist without really existing?

Super massive black holes are hypothesized to exist, but as of yet, there is
no hard evidence that they do.  How can your theory prove the existence of
super massive black holes?

Also, there is evidence to suggest that the length scales of astrophysics
are wrong.  If it turns out the perceived distances between galactic objects
is wrong, and the Newton calculations for gravitational force are correct,
would your theory still predict dark energy?

I find several ideas in your theory to be heading in the right direction,
such as the identification of "gravitational charge" as separate from
electrostatic charge.  However, it is unclear to me what dimensions
gravitational charge has in your theory.  It is also unclear what the force
law is that mediates gravitational charge.  For example, Coulomb's
electrostatic force law and Newton's gravitational force law quantify the
forces between electrostatic charge and mass, respectively.  There are
empirically derived constants that mediate the forces between the dimensions
of charge and mass, respectively.  

In your theory, it is unclear whether gravitational charge is the same thing
as mass, charge, or something completely different.  I'll need to see your
answers before taking this further.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner@mtaonline.net] 
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 10:30 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]: Gravitational Penumbrae

GRAVITATIONAL PENUMBRAE      APRIL 6, 2007


BACKGROUND

An exploration of the concepts of gravimagnetism were discussed in:

    http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/Gravimagnetism.pdf

and:

    http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GR-and-QM.pdf
    http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/PlankG.pdf
    http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GraviCalcs.pdf
    http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/EarthWobble.pdf

An isomorphism between gravity and electromagnetism was developed.   
In this theory of gravimagnetism the graviton is defined as the  
analog of the virtual photon.  The graviphoton is defined as the  
analog of the photon.  Gravitational charge, the analog of positive  
and negative Coulombic charge, is defined as  positive when it is a  
positive imaginary quantity (contains +i), and negative when it is a  
negative imaginary quantity (contains -i).   Imaginary here means a  
quantity containing the imaginary number i, the square root of minus  
one.  A gravitational field G or gravimagnetic field K are imaginary  
analogs to the electromagnetic fields E and B.

An electrostatic attraction occurs when a virtual photon is exchanged  
between a positive and negative electrostatic charge.  An  
electrostatic repulsion occurs when a virtual photon is exchanged  
between like electrostatic charges.   Due to the effect of the i  
coefficient in gravitational fields, a gravitational repulsion occurs  
when a graviton is exchanged between a positive and negative  
gravitational charge.  A gravitational attraction occurs when a  
graviton is exchanged between like gravitational charges.

By the isomorphism, every conceivable electromagnetic quantity,  
relationship, and law has a precisely defined gravimagnetic  
equivalent.  The theory of gravimagnetism leads to many fully  
quantified and verifiable implications, some of which differ from  
those of general relativity.  For example:

1.   Gravity diminishes with distance due to graviton red shift due  
to increased relative and receding velocity with distance (analogous  
to the regular Hubble shift.)  This may in part account for dark energy.

2.   Gravimagnetic fields can in part account for  excess galactic  
forces and precession of the equinox, and errors in estimation of  
distant mass values.

3.   Virtual photons carry no gravitational charge, thus black holes  
can exhibit electromagnetic effects beyond  the event horizon.

4.   A black hole above a threshold mass can emit matter carrying  
gravitational charge opposed to the charge of that black hole.  The  
effect of the black hole's  gravimagnetic and electromagnetic fields  
on such an emission would be to form it into polar jets.

5.   Parts of space, especially near super massive black holes,  may  
be filled with mass containing negative gravitational charge.  This  
could account in part for dark energy and large apparent voids in space.

6.   Newton's f=ma contains no imaginary portions, thus inertia is  
primarily an electromagnetic effect.

7.   The gravimagnetic analog to Plank's constant,  h_g = -h,   
unifies gravity and electromagnetism, and determines the momentum  
carried by graviphotons, etc. However, gravimagnetic theory also  
permanently dis-unifies gravity and electromagnetism in the sense  
that the forces exist in differing dimensions and have differing  
charges and charge carriers.

8.  Real photons carry gravitational charge, otherwise black holes  
could not exist.


OBJECTIVE

It is of interest here to discuss the implications of gravimagnetic  
theory with regard to gravity shielding effects.

GRAVIMAGNETIC SHIELDING

When a graviton is exchanged between two like gravitational charges  
an attraction occurs.   This is somewhat counterintuitive in that  
momentum is exchanged in a direction opposed to that expected based  
on ordinary momentum.  However, this is not at all unusual in the  
world of physics, in that virtual photons exchanged between unlike  
electrostatic charges act in an identical manner.

What is of special interest here is that, to have any effect, the  
graviton is absorbed.  It doesn't continue forward on its way.  This  
leads to the necessity that masses  have gravitational penumbrae.   A  
mass m2 between two other masses m1 and m3 must in part shield m1 and  
m3 from each other.  The magnitude of the graviton absorption from  
mass m1 by mass m2 is proportional to the force exerted between mass  
m1 and m2.


GRAVITATIONAL PENUMBRAE AND DARK ENERGY

Graviton absorption can occur by any particle carrying gravitation  
charge, including photons.    The greater the distance between two  
bodies in space, the more matter that exists between them (assuming a  
nonzero mass density in space), and the more photon flux that exists  
between them.  By implication then, the greater the distance between  
two bodies in space, the less the  gravitational force between them  
as predicted by Newton.   The reduction in force is proportional to  
the mass charge density between the two bodies.  This then also  
accounts in part for dark energy, the apparent reduction of  
gravitational force between bodies with increasing distance.


POSSIBLE EVIDENCE

Gravitational penumbrae may have been recently observed.  See:

http://www.blazelabs.com/e-exp11.asp

The observations provided there may provide some confirmation of  
gravimagnetism, depending on interpretation and confirmation.

Regards,

Horace Heffner

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Apr  7 07:24:47 2007
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Horace wrote (on 4-6-07):

An isomorphism between gravity and electromagnetism
was developed.  In this theory of gravimagnetism the
graviton is defined as the analog of the virtual photon.
The graviphoton is defined as the analog of the photon ...

Hi Horace,

It's good to hear from you.  I'd like to bring to
everyone's attention a good general interest book on
electromagnetism in cosmology: The Electric Sky by Don
Scott -- is a 256 page book with 86 illustrations (62
color) based on the work of plasma cosmologists.  "Say
goodbye to dark matter, dark energy, and black holes that
not only defy expectations, but sober- minded credibility."

``Price of the book is $25.00.  S & H is $5 for domestic
Media mail or $8 for Priority mail. Canada is $7 for
Standard & $10 for Priority. Outside the U.S.-- $12 foreign
Standard, or $15 Global Priority.

Additional information on the book can be found, and orders
placed at: http://www.mikamar.biz/book-info/tes-a.htm''

I'm including below an interesting discusion with
you in June, 2003, just to bring everyone up to date.

Jack Smith

--------------

Horace wrote:

Inirtia must in fact be an electromagnetc force.

Jack Smith wrote:

How does this relate to your statement that centrifugal
force is the force of inertia?

Horace wrote:

There is a very strong relation.  First, the subject
theory provides an indication that the centrifugal force,
i.e. inertia, is indeed a real force.

Indulge me for a moment now while I take the risk of
grinding an old ax, if way prematurely.  Due to the
possibility the force involves interaction with the rest
of the universe, or at least the vacuum itself, the notion
that all motion, including angular motion, is relative,
is nonsense, as is the notion that a centrifugal force does
not exist.  Yes, it is true I think despite the fact that
pundits from MIT and other prestigious places, who have
written books on mechanics that are of highest intellectual
quality and barely fathomable, think otherwise.  As I have
said here a number of times in the past, the proposition
that rotation is merely relative I easily prove to myself
as bunk by merely spinning around fast in my desk chair. I
feel the outward force in my legs, when I rotate relative
to the stars and do not when I don't.  The notion may
be true on a universal basis, but clearly is not on a
local basis.

There are a number of possible balancing centripital
forces, which is the other ingredient required for
circular motion and things like orbits.  The obvious one
is the electrostatic force (even in its masked co-form as
magnetism).  In this case the force is real because each of
the components comprising the force, i.e. each variable
multiplied to compute the force, is real.  The force
of gravity is real because two imaginary components,
mass, are multiplied together in the force computation.
The electrostatic forces in material bonds are similarly
electromagnetic and thus real.  For these reasons, we
would expect the force of inertia, which balances these
forces to also be real.  For this reason, we would further
expect the strong nuclear force, which counteracts the
inertia of the partially charged quarks, to be real also.
Another possible source for a centripetal force is mass
ejection, i.e using inertia against inertia to create
circular motion.  A rocket that flies in circles is using
this means.  In this case we use inertia against inertia,
so it is not possible to tell if it is imaginary or real.

Now, here is what I think is by far the most intriguing
fact.  The force of inertia is far greater than any
possible exchange of photon energy can provide.  When we
push on a shopping cart to accelerate it, we get a momentum
exchange that would take thousands of watts worth of
photons to achieve.  When we push an a shopping cart,
however, it radiates only in a barely detectable fashion,
and little of that is related to its acceleration.  So, it
seems likely  that there there IS a way to grab a foot-hold
on the vacuum without radiating.  What is the most exciting
indication of the subject theory is that this foothold has
nothing whatsoever to do with gravity.  (At least nothing
very obvious.  We still have the unanswered questions of
why inertial mass and gravity are so closely related and
why fields have gravitational mass.)  At any rate, the
theory leads us in a very clear direction with respect
to a space drive.  That direction leads in the direction
of grabbing a foothold on the vacuum electromagnetically,
or possibly in the direction of inertial mass suppression
via electromagnetic manipulation.

An additional and totally weird possibility remains.
That is the possibility of manufacturing mass with
negative inertia, or at least matter which contains
negative inertial components.  This would be very strange
matter indeed.  The mass would react in an attractive way
gravitationally speaking.  It would weigh positively on a
scale, but its buoyancy in water would indicate one mass
and if it were placed on a scale the force experienced
by the scale would be less than the mass indicated by
the buoyancy.  That is because when the scale "pushes" on
the mass, its component of mass having negative inertia is
caused to also push upward.  Such a mass would act very
strangely on the end of a pendulum. The pendulum would
tend to automatically damp its swing at the ends, and
accelerate more in the middle of its swing.  Its inertia
would not carry it as far forward, but the force or at
least acceleration of the non-negative inertial component
by gravity would be amplified when it pressed on the
negative inertial mass.  (I hope I got all that right!
Maybe not about the scale part.  I need to think that over
some more!)

Negative inertia mass is a really bizarre and unlikely
possibility, but oddly one already considered in a very
similar fashion by Paul Hill in *Unconventional Flying
Objects*!  In Hill's case he assumed though that such a
mass might have a negative gravitational force as well.
We would not have a clue from the subject theory though
as to how to create such matter, as it would not involve
electromagnetics.  It would be a different kind of matter
altogether, having a gravitational charge component of -i.
However, a craft consisting of a significant amount of
negative inertial mass would be almost equally as good
out in space.

The most interesting and practical experimental approach
(indicated by the subject theory) I think must involve
the oscillation or rotation of varying current circuits,
especially circuits configured such that they do not
radiate significantly.  I do not believe significant mass
changes are required, especially relativistic mass changes.
Long term experimentation makes me predisposed to reject
the vanilla ExB Poynting vector approach so often touted.

The following I think must be a clue.  This was discussed
here on vortex at length some years ago.  It is this
thought experiment.  Imagine a couple or three miles long
straight and parallel wires carrying current around a loop.
The wires go right and left in front of us.  At both ends
they are connected by a semicircular wire bend with a
radius of a few inches.  There is no longitudinal force
on the long straight segments of wire predicted by EM
theory, only a mutually outward force.  The mutual force
between the semicircular ends of the wire, being a force
between two dipoles, and thus a 1/r^4 force, is minuscule.
However, if we calculate the rightward force on the
rightmost semicircle, we find that it is very large and
to the right.  It is similarly true that the leftmost
semicircle exerts a very large force to the left.  The two
ends of the circuit, assuming a very large current, exert
a very large tensile force on the wires.  Let us call this
force a self-force.  There is no antecedent for this force.
It violates Newton's law of equal action and reaction,
unless each end of the wire pushes on space itself.
Now, unfortunately for we inertial drive engineers, the
forces around any circuit balance to zero ... at least for
static circuits.  However, this is not true necessarily
for moving circuit elements.  It is true perhaps in
Jefimenko's theory, but, if I recall that is true only
due to his judicious choice of gauge to make it so, and
not an inherent requirement of the theory, or possibly of
standard EM as well.  One thing is for sure, there seems
to be no *causal* explanation for the massive unbalanced
forces at the ends of the wires.  Using superconductors
such forces can easily be made to range into the tons.

Suppose instead of a wire we use a coax cable (there is
still a massive current bend self-force at the ends).
Suppose we could place a massive current pulse in such a
wire (it would not have to be superconducting, merely very
cold aluminum would do).  When the current pulse gets to
the right end it produces a very large pulse of momentum.
Suppose that the coax is rotating horizontally such that
when the pulse gets to the other end of the coax that
end is located to the right also.  We get another impulse
to the right.  The device is not radiating.  Where does
the net inertia come from?  Perhaps it somehow comes in
the form of potential drop at the current bend ... say,
due to the Hall effect potential?  I don't think so, in
that a reverse potential occurs upon the current exiting
the bend.  Perhaps momentum is lost due to the fact
the pulse flattens out with time and must be restored?
One problem, the problem of the wire having to exceed the
speed of light, might be taken care of by a pulse delay
mechanism in the long straight segments.  Such a mechanism
might experience a negative momentum pulse (compared to
the desired direction) when the current pulse arrives, and
should have a counteracting momentum pulse when the current
pulse departs.  Unfortunately, the delay device would
be facing in opposite directions during those two times.
Provided this delay impulse is not due to conductor bends,
but rather simply due to electron momentum, the slowing and
accelerating momentum change forces should be minuscule
compared to he self force at the ends, which are giant
compared to the centrifugal force due to electron momentums
or electron inertia.  The problem to overcome in such a
pulse delay device, or alternatively pulse generating and
absorbing devices, which in tandem create a pulse delay,
is to avoid magnetic self-forces which cancel those on the
coax ends.  I don't know the answer to all these questions,
or what exactly is right, but I think there now is a very
serious reason to take another look at these questions.

I think maybe road signs are now in place, due to power
of the field isomorphisms.  All we have to do is walk down
the road?

Regards, Horace Heffner


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Horace,

Most interesting and perceptive, as always.

Looks like a 'spring thaw' has settled in over the far North, allowing 
you to metaphorically peek-out at the lower 48 once again <g>

One quick question, and I'm sure you will be getting plenty more, since 
you have been focusing on this general field for some time: Did you have 
a look at the Ibison paper, and do you have any comments on that? In 
your earlier paper, you cited Jefimenko's idea that the correspondence 
between gravity and the electromagnetic field is based on causality and 
the effects of retardation. Is that another way (and precedent) of 
saying the same thing ?

Jones


Wiki keeps adding gravity references:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yilmaz_theory_of_gravitation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarizable_vacuum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_electrodynamics_bibliography

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Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 08:37:18 -0700
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Subject: [Vo]: H2 on demand
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We have mentioned AirGen before.

http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=11039

They have developed kind of a Grove Cell - a cross between a battery and 
a H2 generator (electrolysis cell) which uses an active nano-colloid, in 
addition to shorted electrodes.

The idea is that you pair it with a fuel cell and get a lot more power 
per weight or volume than an advanced battery.

The colloid is 'sacrifical' (i.e appropriate for comment on Easter ;-) 
but they have never said how much the cost is - to replenish it... which 
is probably the fly in the ointment as we all know that nano-anything = 
tres cher.  But they have hinted that the colloid can be reactivated, at 
least partially, in situ.

Apparently they had a demo two weeks ago in San Antonio -

http://www.h2daily.com/news/hydrogen-generation-technology-to-be-demonstrated-at-nha-exposition-by-airgen-20070312-34-50.html
http://www.fuelcellsworks.com/Supppage7024.html

Funny that they did not get any press coverage on that demo, at least 
which I can find... maybe Richard has seen it?

Jones

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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner@mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravitational Penumbrae
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 09:30:19 -0800
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On Apr 7, 2007, at 6:56 AM, Jones Beene wrote:

> Horace,
>
> Most interesting and perceptive, as always.
>
> Looks like a 'spring thaw' has settled in over the far North,  
> allowing you to metaphorically peek-out at the lower 48 once again <g>
>
> One quick question, and I'm sure you will be getting plenty more,  
> since you have been focusing on this general field for some time:  
> Did you have a look at the Ibison paper, and do you have any  
> comments on that?


I haven't seen any recent papers by Ibbotson. I've been away from  
amateur physics for some time now.  It's all just so tedious for me  
these days, and I have other demands on my time.


> In your earlier paper, you cited Jefimenko's idea that the  
> correspondence between gravity and the electromagnetic field is  
> based on causality and the effects of retardation. Is that another  
> way (and precedent) of saying the same thing ?

No, I think it is saying *exactly* the same thing - with only the  
slight modification of the use of the imaginary number i to fix some  
of Jefimenko's computational problems.  My little theory is based  
100% on Jefimenko's theory of retardation and casuality, as was noted  
in the defining articles.  The implications of this little addition  
of +-i, however, were astounding to me, and led immediately to  
numerous conclusions and speculations that could not be drawn from  
Jefimenko's work.

It will be most interesting to see the results from the Gravity Probe  
B studies.

Regards,

Horace Heffner

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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner@mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravitational Penumbrae
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 09:47:51 -0800
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On Apr 7, 2007, at 6:14 AM, Taylor J. Smith wrote:

>
> Hi Horace,


Hello Jack,

The old posting you provided looks like it might pre-date my  
solidification of the gravimagnetic isomorphism concepts, though it  
certainly contains some of the thinking.  In any case, though I  
expect it won't actually work (based on the NASA Advanced Propulsion  
Program results for similar things), I did work up some numbers on a  
possible experimental coaxial thruster along those lines:

http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/CoaxDrive.pdf

I liked the pure ZPE based approach a lot more:

http://mtaonline.net/~hheffner/ZPE-CasimirThrust.pdf

but it was way beyond my means.

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Apr  7 10:58:06 2007
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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner@mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravitational Penumbrae
Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2007 09:57:49 -0800
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If I've already sent this please forgive my senility.  8^)

I don't have the time for an extended discussion.  However, I will  
try to answer your questions of the moment.

On Apr 7, 2007, at 3:15 AM, David Thomson wrote:

> Hi Horace,
>
> Would you consider gravitational charge to be the same thing as  
> mass?  If
> not, why not?

Coulombic charge is the emitter/receiver of the messenger particle of  
the electromagnetic (EM) field.  Gravitational charge is the emitter/ 
receiver of the messenger particle of the gravimagnetic (GK) field.   
Coulombic and gravitational charge can be bound into, be contained  
in, the same particle.

Gravitational charge defines gravitational mass, but not inertial  
mass.  Inertial and gravitational mass are maintained in proportion  
only because in typical matter the two charge carriers are maintained  
in proportion.  Neutrons carry EM charge, but the charges are  
balanced.  Photons, on the other hand, carry no EM charge, but do  
carry GK charge.


>
> How do you use the term "virtual" such that it applies to the real  
> world?
> That is, how can an object exist without really existing?

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

Messenger particles carry (are) the force of a force field.  They  
travel at finite speed, thus, as Jefimenko Showed, their effects in  
dynamic systems are delayed, i.e. "retarded".  This retardation  
accounts precisely for the magnetic component of both the EM and GK  
fields, thus there is no need for a magnetic field messenger particle  
of either the EM or GK variety.  This accounts for why the electric  
and magnetic components of a field depend on the observer's relative  
motion.  Jefimenko has further showed that retardation accounts fully  
for many relativistic effects.


>
> Super massive black holes are hypothesized to exist, but as of yet,  
> there is
> no hard evidence that they do.

A search of the literature will show the above to be highly  
debatable.  It is not a debate in which I have sufficient interest to  
spend time.


> How can your theory prove the existence of
> super massive black holes?


It can not.  Proof of black holes only comes from observation.  The  
gravimagnetic theory logically necessitates black holes, and further  
black holes with specific characteristics.  The gravimagnetic theory  
was in fact derived to be consistent with a number of types of  
assumed observations.  I think one of the indications of the power of  
the theory is the clarity of its explanation of polar jets emitted  
from black holes.  Another is its wide range of quantified predictive  
abilities.


>
> Also, there is evidence to suggest that the length scales of  
> astrophysics
> are wrong.  If it turns out the perceived distances between  
> galactic objects
> is wrong, and the Newton calculations for gravitational force are  
> correct,
> would your theory still predict dark energy?


Yes, of course.  Gravity must necessarily be reduced by the noted  
effects of propagation delay, gravitational red shift, and graviton  
absorption.  Further, the predicted existence (by symmetry, as well  
as polar jets) of negative mass charge necessitates the existence of  
a repulsive gravitational force and negative gravitational matter.   
The existence of such matter has profound cosmological consequences.   
Overall, the universe must expand indefinitely, but in localized  
zones consisting primarily of one charge type or another, a phoenix  
effect takes place through generations of alternating black hole  
types.  It is possible that negative gravitational mass matter  
arrives here on earth continuously in the form of cosmic rays, and  
that it thus occupies the volume of local space in surprisingly high  
amounts.   The energy of cosmic rays greatly exceeds that necessary  
to overcome the earth or solar system's escape velocity.  To my  
knowledge no determination of length scales has even considered all  
these things.

>
> I find several ideas in your theory to be heading in the right  
> direction,
> such as the identification of "gravitational charge" as separate from
> electrostatic charge.  However, it is unclear to me what dimensions
> gravitational charge has in your theory.


Gravitational charge has the dimension of gravitational mass, e.g.  
kg_g.  When it is clear you are talking about gravitational mass and  
not inertial mass you can simply dispense with the "sub g".

The more interesting and nebulous thing, and even not explored thing,  
is the space in which the graviton exists, which includes imaginary  
dimensions.  The travel time between two particles for gravitons and  
virtual photons need not be the same at all times.  If a space  
warping model is of use, the two subspaces might warp independently.   
The ratio of charge, or inertial mass, to gravitational mass is not  
necessarily constant.  The change in proportions affects clocks, so  
manifests as time warp.


> It is also unclear what the force
> law is that mediates gravitational charge.  For example, Coulomb's
> electrostatic force law and Newton's gravitational force law  
> quantify the
> forces between electrostatic charge and mass, respectively.

I think you just answered your own question.  These two laws are  
analogs under the defined isomorphism. Optionally, you can can  
subscript everything in Coulomb's law with a "g" to obtain Newton's  
gravitational force law as defined by the nomenclature in:

http://mtaonline.net/~hheffner/Gravimagnetism.pdf


> There are
> empirically derived constants that mediate the forces between the  
> dimensions
> of charge and mass, respectively.

The force law "constants" depend on the ratio of GK charge to EM  
charge in ordinary matter particles, and, depending on other  
assumptions, the conditions of observation.  However, the distinction  
between inertial mass and gravitational mass was not drawn when the  
force law constants were initially defined in prior centuries.


> In your theory, it is unclear whether gravitational charge is the  
> same thing
> as mass, charge, or something completely different.

A fundamental premise of the theory is that gravitational mass and  
inertial mass are completely distinct.  Forces from gravitational  
charge interactions are distinct from inertial f=ma forces, which can  
be shown to be due to EM forces resulting from the fact charged  
particles have finite dimensions.  I think Puthoff (a former member  
of this list) and Ibbitson have written a number of articles about  
the EM source of inertia.

Coulomb charge and mass charge are utterly distinct under the  
gravimagnetic theory, though they are commonly bound together in  
ordinary matter.

> I'll need to see your
> answers before taking this further.

Perhaps you could take it in a basket for a picnic.  mmmmm.... picnic...

Regards,

Horace Heffner

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On Apr 7, 2007, at 6:56 AM, Jones Beene wrote:



> In your earlier paper, you cited Jefimenko's idea that the  
> correspondence between gravity and the electromagnetic field is  
> based on causality and the effects of retardation. Is that another  
> way (and precedent) of saying the same thing ?

I wrote: "No, I think it is saying *exactly* the same thing - with  
only the slight modification of the use of the imaginary number i to  
fix some of Jefimenko's computational problems.  My little theory is  
based 100% on Jefimenko's theory of retardation and casuality, as was  
noted in the defining articles.  The implications of this little  
addition of +-i, however, were astounding to me, and led immediately  
to numerous conclusions and speculations that could not be drawn from  
Jefimenko's work."

Oooooops!   I misread the question!  I read the above as "...  
correspondence between gravity and the *gravimagnetic* field is based  
on causality and the effects of retardation."  Sorry!

I don't think Jefimenko meant that the correspondence between gravity  
and the electromagnetic field is based on causality and the effects  
of retardation.  I don't either.  The importance of causality and  
retardation is that these considerations demonstrate the necessity of  
and fully account for the magnetic fields B and K given the existence  
of fields E and g provided they carried by finite speed messenger  
particles, and are thus "causal".  The similarity of laws and  
constants, at least in part, between gravity and electrostatic fields  
has long been noted.  Jefimenko showed that E implies the existence  
B, and thus, similarly, g implies K.  However, he did not establish a  
full isomorphism, and had to tweek individual laws as he examined  
them in order to make some kind of correspondence.

Regards,

Horace Heffner

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------=_Part_23359_32395848.1175992618349
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Dear Vo,

   Following is-are some general comment.  The contributor will delete text
that is not
germane ,per se....

       Should the reader[s] wish to commnet or contribute:

(A)  Please use clear text.... OK to refer to known text, contribution
(B)  Prefer BBGB   and ...or.....HB NB BS Engineering.
(C)  If the response is a ""guess"  or a   "theory""  please identify it as
such
(D)  Most desired will be real known work... performed by the contributor.




On 4/6/07, vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com <
vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com> wrote:

> vortex-digest Digest                            Volume 2007 : Issue 205
>
> Today's Topics:
>  [Vo]: Approaches for biological and   [ Jed Rothwell <
> JedRothwell@mindsprin ]
>  Re: [Vo]: Will it Play in Peoria?     [ Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net=
>
> ]
>  Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality   [ Jed Rothwell <
> JedRothwell@mindsprin ]
>  Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality   [ Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net=
>
> ]
>  Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality   [ Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net=
>
> ]
>  Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza             [ Robin van Spaandonk <
> rvanspaa@bigpo ]
>  Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza             [ Robin van Spaandonk <
> rvanspaa@bigpo ]
>  Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza             [ "R.C.Macaulay" <walhalla@cvtv.ne=
t>
> ]
>  [Vo]: Power Paint                     [ "Terry Blanton" <
> hohlraum@gmail.com ]
>  [Vo]: Gravity is a Push               [ Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net=
>
> ]
>  Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push           [ "Terry Blanton" <
> hohlraum@gmail.com ]
>  Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push           [ Harry Veeder <
> eo200@freenet.carleto ]
>  [Vo]: gravity anomaly measured        [ Harry Veeder <
> eo200@freenet.carleto ]
>  Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push           [ Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net=
>
> ]
>  Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push           [ "Steven Vincent Johnson" <
> ow01@voya ]
>  Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push           [ Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net=
>
> ]
>  [Vo]: Fwd: Gravity is a Push          [ "Terry Blanton" <
> hohlraum@gmail.com ]
>

         [1]    A semi parabolic reflector, such as the dishes used for TV
in the 1970 to 1995 era...
                 11 feet in diameter yield from 8 to 15 KW Thermal

       THIS IS reality .....

          The paper below is NOT a good description of any method to use
general sunlight.....
               check it out... PLEASE



> Now, here is a good paper -- which I hope is
> technically accurate -- that explains a lot about
> photosynthesis and plant efficiency:
>
> http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/103/14/5251




QUOTES:
>
> "The average solar radiation available for a
> flat-plate collector in the U.S. is 5 kW=B7h/m^2
> per day (1 kW=B7h =3D 3.6 x 10^6 J). Conservatively,
> 100 million residences, each with an available
> roof area of 90 m^2, receive 5 x 10^19 J of solar
> energy, which is equal to half of the annual
> energy consumption in the U.S. Typical
> commercially available PV cells offer nominal
> efficiencies of 15%, with higher levels
> attainable up to a theoretical efficiency for
> silicon PV cells of 32%; however, a significant
> fraction of the installation costs are related to
> infrastructure, such as supporting framework,
> wiring, power inverters, and grid connections.
> For example, in a study published in 2003 of a
> 35-kW PV array (2), the total reported cost was
> $239,945 ($6.86/W), with infrastructure
> comprising 35=9640% of the total amount. This
> system saved $2,678 per year in energy costs
> compared with the preinstallation expenditures.
> If, hypothetically, the same installation could
> be made with cells at 1/10 the current price and
> 32% efficiency but the same infrastructure costs,
> the system would cost $100,000 and save $8,000
> per year. Based on these values, it is apparent
> that improving efficiency and reducing device
> costs is vital to using PV technologies but that
> addressing infrastructure costs will also be necessary. . . ."



   SO......   100,000 for an old time 11 foot diameter dish????
          NO......









> This paper does not mention green sulfur bacteria.
>
> - Jed



       JED.... et al ... do your own math.....



Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> > I believe it would take more like 10,000 acres ... Farmland
> in Illinois costs between $3,000 and $5,000... so this would
> be a $40 million investment for the land alone, processing
> equipment would bring the cost up to $140 to $200 million.
>
>
> 50 kilowatts per hour would be too much and 50 kWhr per day would be too
> little. Frankly, too little factual detail is known to even guess, and
> that was a poor guess at that ...
>
> .... but planners and alternative energy advocates must give the reports
> which have been published the benefit of the doubt.
>
> There is a likelihood, based on these reports, that what appears to be
> in excess of 100% of the solar energy falling on a pond area is being
> converted into biofuel, and that could be true even if only 5% of the
> photons were being utilized.




        NB:   11 feet in diameter  .......... 5 to 12  KW Thermal .....

        Cost???   Maybe 30 to 50 USD.....


_________________________________________


> Jones
>
> In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Thu, 5 Apr 2007 07:10:16 -0400:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >On 4/4/07, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> >
> The one I'm designing right now. :)
>
> Regards,
>
> http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/thepress/4017784a11.html
>
> Solar power breakthrough at Massey
>
> By MERVYN DYKES - Manawatu Standard | Thursday, 5 April 2007
>
> COLOUR THEIR FUTURE GREEN: Wayne Campbell, left, and Ashton Partridge
> with a tiny demonstration solar panel filled with synthetic dye. Not
> only is it environmentally friendly and capable of being made in New
> Zealand, but it costs a fraction of the price of silicon cells.



______________________________________________________

       NB:

 The Casimir  :force: is similar to Van der Waals ....
OR:  12 inch by 12 inch  conductive plates one nano meter apart will
experience
and attractive force of about 14.7 pounds/in/sq.... or the same as STP. air
pressure.

     The plates will then touch one another..... THEN .... to separate the
plates
the entire assembly must be  placed in a fully shielded electromagnetic
barrier or Faraday cage that will block or prevent ALL of the wavelengths
that caused the plates to be pushed toward  one another ..... then you may
separate the two 12 inch by 12
inch plates.... Then you may remove the two plates  from the shielding
cage....
and.... again they will be pushed toward one another [ one nano meter] at
the
pressure equal to air pressure.

        HMMMMM

      Really good..... big stuff...




> Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:
> > Interesting.
> >
> > According to this timely evidence would it be correct to postulate that
> > the Casmir Force is nothing more than a manifestation of the exact same
> > "force" as described in Ibson's work, but just on a much smaller scale?
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D


If so - it presents the possible conundrum of a ZPE device which works
> on earth but would not work in space... (if the device 'requires' an
> 'arrow of time' for functionality - instead of nullifying same).
>
> Hope that outcome does not eliminate any chance of NASA funding <g>
>
> Indeed the Earthtech site says "submitted".
>
> Terry


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\=
\\\\\\\\\\

  Anyone wish to contribute NON THEORY???

                 HJ

------=_Part_23359_32395848.1175992618349
Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

<div>Dear Vo,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; Following is-are some general comment.&nbsp; The contribu=
tor will delete text that is not </div>
<div>germane ,per se....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Should the reader[s] wish to comm=
net or contribute:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>(A)&nbsp; Please use clear text.... OK to refer to known text, contrib=
ution </div>
<div>(B)&nbsp; Prefer BBGB&nbsp;&nbsp; and ...or.....HB NB BS Engineering.<=
/div>
<div>(C)&nbsp; If the response is a &quot;&quot;guess&quot;&nbsp; or a&nbsp=
;&nbsp; &quot;theory&quot;&quot;&nbsp; please identify it as such</div>
<div>(D)&nbsp; Most desired will be real known work... performed by the con=
tributor.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 4/6/07, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"><=
a href=3D"mailto:vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com">vortex-digest-request@es=
kimo.com</a></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com">vo=
rtex-digest-request@eskimo.com
</a>&gt; wrote:</span></div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div style=3D"DIRECTION: ltr">vortex-digest Digest &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Vo=
lume 2007 : Issue 205<br><br>Today&#39;s Topics:<br>&nbsp;[Vo]: Approaches =
for biological and &nbsp; [ Jed Rothwell &lt;JedRothwell@mindsprin ]<br>&nb=
sp;Re: [Vo]: Will it Play in Peoria? &nbsp; &nbsp; [ Jones Beene &lt;
<a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:=
jonesb9@pacbell.net">jonesb9@pacbell.net</a>&gt; ]<br>&nbsp;Re: [Vo]: Biofu=
el Bonanza - reality &nbsp; [ Jed Rothwell &lt;JedRothwell@mindsprin ]<br>&=
nbsp;Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza - reality &nbsp; [ Jones Beene &lt;
<a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:=
jonesb9@pacbell.net">jonesb9@pacbell.net</a>&gt; ]<br>&nbsp;Re: [Vo]: Biofu=
el Bonanza - reality &nbsp; [ Jones Beene &lt;<a onclick=3D"return top.js.O=
penExtLink(window,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net">
jonesb9@pacbell.net</a>&gt; ]<br>&nbsp;Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; [ Robin van Spaandonk &lt;rvanspaa@bigpo ]<=
br>&nbsp;Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bonanza &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; [ Robin van Spaandonk &lt;rvanspaa@bigpo ]<br>&nbsp;Re: [Vo]: Biofuel Bon=
anza &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; [ &quot;
R.C.Macaulay&quot; &lt;<a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event=
,this)" href=3D"mailto:walhalla@cvtv.net">walhalla@cvtv.net</a>&gt; ]<br>&n=
bsp;[Vo]: Power Paint &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; [ &quot;Terry Blanton&quot; &lt;<a onclick=3D"return top.j=
s.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com">
hohlraum@gmail.com</a> ]<br>&nbsp;[Vo]: Gravity is a Push &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; [ Jones Beene &lt;<a onclick=3D"return top.=
js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net">jone=
sb9@pacbell.net</a>&gt; ]<br>&nbsp;Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; [ &quot;Terry Blanton&quot; &lt;
<a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:=
hohlraum@gmail.com">hohlraum@gmail.com</a> ]<br>&nbsp;Re: [Vo]: Gravity is =
a Push &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; [ Harry Veeder &lt;<a onclick=3D"=
return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:eo200@freenet.=
carleto">
eo200@freenet.carleto</a> ]<br>&nbsp;[Vo]: gravity anomaly measured &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;[ Harry Veeder &lt;<a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtL=
ink(window,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:eo200@freenet.carleto">eo200@freenet=
.carleto</a> ]<br>&nbsp;Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; [ Jones Beene &lt;
<a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:=
jonesb9@pacbell.net">jonesb9@pacbell.net</a>&gt; ]<br>&nbsp;Re: [Vo]: Gravi=
ty is a Push &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; [ &quot;Steven Vincent John=
son&quot; &lt;ow01@voya ]<br>&nbsp;Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; [ Jones Beene &lt;
<a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:=
jonesb9@pacbell.net">jonesb9@pacbell.net</a>&gt; ]<br>&nbsp;[Vo]: Fwd: Grav=
ity is a Push &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;[ &quot;Terry Blanton&quot;=
 &lt;<a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href=3D"ma=
ilto:hohlraum@gmail.com">
hohlraum@gmail.com</a> ]</div></blockquote>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [1]&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 A semi parabolic reflector, such as the dishes used for TV in the 1970 to =
1995 era...&nbsp; </div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 11 feet in diameter yield from 8 to 15 KW Therma=
l</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THIS IS reality .....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The paper below=
 is NOT a good description of any method to use general sunlight.....</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; check it out... PLEASE</div>
<div><br>&nbsp;</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Now, here is a good paper -- whi=
ch I hope is<br>technically accurate -- that explains a lot about<br>photos=
ynthesis and plant efficiency:
<br><br><a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/103/14/5251">http:=
//www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/103/14/5251</a></blockquote>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">QUOTES:<br><br>&quot;The average=
 solar radiation available for a<br>flat-plate collector in the U.S. is 5 k=
W=B7h/m^2
<br>per day (1 kW=B7h =3D 3.6 x 10^6 J). Conservatively,<br>100 million res=
idences, each with an available<br>roof area of 90 m^2, receive 5 x 10^19 J=
 of solar<br>energy, which is equal to half of the annual<br>energy consump=
tion in the=20
U.S. Typical<br>commercially available PV cells offer nominal<br>efficienci=
es of 15%, with higher levels<br>attainable up to a theoretical efficiency =
for<br>silicon PV cells of 32%; however, a significant<br>fraction of the i=
nstallation costs are related to
<br>infrastructure, such as supporting framework,<br>wiring, power inverter=
s, and grid connections.<br>For example, in a study published in 2003 of a<=
br>35-kW PV array (2), the total reported cost was<br>$239,945 ($6.86/W), w=
ith infrastructure
<br>comprising 35=9640% of the total amount. This<br>system saved $2,678 pe=
r year in energy costs<br>compared with the preinstallation expenditures.<b=
r>If, hypothetically, the same installation could<br>be made with cells at =
1/10 the current price and
<br>32% efficiency but the same infrastructure costs,<br>the system would c=
ost $100,000 and save $8,000<br>per year. Based on these values, it is appa=
rent<br>that improving efficiency and reducing device<br>costs is vital to =
using PV technologies but that
<br>addressing infrastructure costs will also be necessary. . . .&quot;</bl=
ockquote>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; SO......&nbsp;&nbsp; 100,000 for an old time 11 foot diam=
eter dish????</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NO......</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">This paper does not mention gree=
n sulfur bacteria.<br><br>- Jed</blockquote>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; JED.... et al ... do your own mat=
h.....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Jed Rothwell wrote:<br><br>&gt; =
I believe it would take more like 10,000 acres ... Farmland<br>in Illinois =
costs between $3,000 and $5,000... so this would
<br>be a $40 million investment for the land alone, processing<br>equipment=
 would bring the cost up to $140 to $200 million.<br><br><br>50 kilowatts p=
er hour would be too much and 50 kWhr per day would be too<br>little. Frank=
ly, too little factual detail is known to even guess, and
<br>that was a poor guess at that ...<br><br>.... but planners and alternat=
ive energy advocates must give the reports<br>which have been published the=
 benefit of the doubt.<br><br>There is a likelihood, based on these reports=
, that what appears to be
<br>in excess of 100% of the solar energy falling on a pond area is being<b=
r>converted into biofuel, and that could be true even if only 5% of the<br>=
photons were being utilized.</blockquote>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NB:&nbsp;&nbsp; 11 feet in =
diameter&nbsp; .......... 5 to 12&nbsp; KW Thermal .....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Cost???&nbsp;&nbsp; Maybe 3=
0 to 50 USD.....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>_________________________________________<br>&nbsp;</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Jones<br><br>In reply to &nbsp;T=
erry Blanton&#39;s message of Thu, 5 Apr 2007 07:10:16 -0400:<br>Hi,<br>[sn=
ip]<br>
&gt;On 4/4/07, Robin van Spaandonk &lt;<a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtL=
ink(window,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au">rvanspaa@bi=
gpond.net.au</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;<br>The one I&#39;m designing right now.=
 :)
<br><br>Regards,<br><br><a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,even=
t,this)" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/thepress/40=
17784a11.html">http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/thepress/4017784a11.html</a><br=
><br>
Solar power breakthrough at Massey<br><br>By MERVYN DYKES - Manawatu Standa=
rd | Thursday, 5 April 2007<br><br>COLOUR THEIR FUTURE GREEN: Wayne Campbel=
l, left, and Ashton Partridge<br>with a tiny demonstration solar panel fill=
ed with synthetic dye. Not
<br>only is it environmentally friendly and capable of being made in New<br=
>Zealand, but it costs a fraction of the price of silicon cells.</blockquot=
e>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>______________________________________________________</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NB:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;The Casimir&nbsp; :force: is similar to Van der Waals .... </div=
>
<div>OR:&nbsp; 12 inch by 12 inch&nbsp; conductive plates one nano meter ap=
art will experience</div>
<div>and attractive force of about 14.7 pounds/in/sq.... or the same as STP=
. air pressure.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The plates will then touch one another..... T=
HEN .... to separate the plates</div>
<div>the entire assembly must be&nbsp; placed in a fully shielded electroma=
gnetic barrier or Faraday cage that will block or prevent ALL of the wavele=
ngths that caused the plates to be pushed toward &nbsp;one another ..... th=
en you may separate the two 12 inch by 12
</div>
<div>inch plates.... Then you may remove the two plates&nbsp; from the shie=
lding cage....</div>
<div>and.... again they will be pushed toward one another [ one nano meter]=
 at the </div>
<div>pressure equal to air pressure.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HMMMMM</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Really good..... big stuff...</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>&nbsp;</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:<br=
>&gt; Interesting.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; According to this timely evidence would =
it be correct to postulate that
<br>&gt; the Casmir Force is nothing more than a manifestation of the exact=
 same<br>&gt; &quot;force&quot; as described in Ibson&#39;s work, but just =
on a much smaller scale?<br><br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
</blockquote><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">If so - it presents the possible=
 conundrum of a ZPE device which works<br>on earth but would not work in sp=
ace... (if the device &#39;requires&#39; an
<br>&#39;arrow of time&#39; for functionality - instead of nullifying same)=
.<br><br>Hope that outcome does not eliminate any chance of NASA funding &l=
t;g&gt;<br><br>Indeed the Earthtech site says &quot;submitted&quot;.<br>
<br>Terry</blockquote>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><a>\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\=
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\</a></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp; Anyone wish to contribute NON THEORY???</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HJ</div><br>

------=_Part_23359_32395848.1175992618349--

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I wrote: "Gravitational charge has the dimension of gravitational  
mass, e.g. kg_g.  When it is clear you are talking about  
gravitational mass and not inertial mass you can simply dispense with  
the "sub g"."

I should have noted here that kg_g = i kg.  In other words,  
gravitational charge is an imaginary number.  It is important to keep  
track of the i in computations when force direction is an issue.   
There are some good examples of the use of i in computations in:

http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GraviCalcs.pdf

Regards,

Horace Heffner

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Subject: [Vo]: Walter Russell
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Speaking of the long awaited "new age"- whatever that term may hold for 
you Aquarians, et al. who are into alternative-everything, including the 
season (or special day) of rebirthing...

The term "New Age" in its contemporary sense can be traced all the way 
back to 1944. That year, the jack-of all-trades aka the modern Leonardo 
da Vinci: artist, cosmologist, physicist and philosopher - Walter 
Russell - published an essay in which he discussed his "New Age 
philosophy" of the spiritual re-awakening of man. He became a hit on the 
lecture circuit following the 'big one' (WWII and/or the bomb, and the 
collective guilt that it engendered).

In the early days of PBS (back before I blew-up my TV) a number of 
poorly made episodes appeared consisting of nothing more than lectures 
and interviews by, or with, Walter Russell, who died in 1963. Here is an 
unofficial "new age type" website with many links.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8989/

or slightly more of a science perspective:

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Walter_Russell

Some the PBS series was possibly lectures given to employees of IBM 
where he worked for twelve years, being a favorite of the legendary 
Thomas J. Watson, which is probably a story in itself - as the two may 
seem miles apart on the surface (mystic scientist vs. staid 
entrepreneur). Those lectures are probably of much less interest to Vo's 
than his physics and cosmology material.

I tried to find if these are available as a package, but a goggle search 
turns up lots of other new-age stuff. I had the vague recollection that 
my former neighbor in Berkeley, the prototypical new-ager: Jeffrey 
Mishlove ("Thinking Allowed" the Public Television Series) had done this 
series as well, but no. There has to be a gap of several years in there.

Recently the subject of "helionon" and Russell's alternative periodic 
table has reappeared on a few fori (forums <g>).

Anyway - to make a short story longer -- had one NOT personally seen the 
charismatic power of this fellow, Walter Russell, but instead had just 
read what is available on the net (esp. the new age stuff): he could 
easily be relegated to that category of 'possible cranks' which includes 
many insightful but 'borderline' individuals (present company on Vo 
included). Russell had a power of insight that grabbed you, even off of 
a poorly made video, and even when you could have been watching 
something as illuminating as professional football <g>.

Now ... moving on the real mystery.

What is in that Russellarian Easter-egg called "helionon"?

Name your poison, new-agers: hydrino? Brown's gas? Orgone?

Jones

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Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 12:45:13 -0400
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Subject: [Vo]: Installing Your Prius EV Button
Status: RO
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http://www.calcars.org/prius-evbutton-install.pdf

"These instructions allow you to take advantage of the built-in
feature of what is commonly called "EV (electric vehicle) Mode" of
your 2004+ Prius. In Japan and European versions of the Toyota Prius
the vehicle is sold with an EV Button pre-installed by Toyota. For
some reason, in the North American version this button is left off
(note: speculation focuses on possible . . ."

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From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." <hoyt-stearns@cox.net>
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Subject: [Vo]:Prime Numbers
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 15:46:11 -0700
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I received my copy of the book and DVD "Calculate Primes" by James McCanney
( http://CalculatePrimes.com ) two weeks ago and have been studying it and
trying to implement the algorithms ( In PERL first, but it should be in "J"
(jsoftware.com), but I'm not fluent in that ).

He shows that prime numbers are not random and can be generated easily with
just addition and subtraction, and claims that integer factorization is easy
also.

I'm stuck in one aspect of the algorithm, though (for large integers).  Is
anyone on this list familiar with this and could help?

Because of his copyrights and other restrictions, I can't get in to too much
detail in public (He claims it renders RSA type encryption schemes broken).


Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona US

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16414" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D465203722-08042007><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I =
received my copy=20
of the book and DVD "Calculate Primes" by James McCanney&nbsp; ( <A=20
href=3D"http://CalculatePrimes.com">http://CalculatePrimes.com</A> ) two =
weeks ago=20
and have been studying it and trying to implement the algorithms ( In =
PERL=20
first, but it&nbsp;should be in "J"&nbsp; (jsoftware.com), but I'm not =
fluent in=20
that ).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D465203722-08042007><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D465203722-08042007><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>He =
shows that prime=20
numbers are not random and can be generated easily with just addition =
and=20
subtraction, and claims that integer factorization is easy=20
also.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D465203722-08042007><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D465203722-08042007><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm =
stuck in one=20
aspect of the algorithm, though (for large integers).&nbsp;&nbsp;Is=20
anyone&nbsp;on this list familiar with this and could =
help?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D465203722-08042007><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D465203722-08042007><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Because of his=20
copyrights and other restrictions, I can't get in to too much detail in =
public=20
(He claims it renders RSA type encryption schemes =
broken).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D465203722-08042007><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D465203722-08042007><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D465203722-08042007><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hoyt=20
Stearns</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D465203722-08042007><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Scottsdale, Arizona=20
US</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Apr  8 18:54:20 2007
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Subject: [Vo]: Re: Walter Russell
Status: O
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Howdy Jones,

Another link to Russell, fascinating , real person

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8989/

Richard

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Walter Russell: The Secret of Light <
http://www.philosophy.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=35>
Walter Russell: Space and the Hydrogen Age <
http://www.philosophy.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3&Itemid=35>

he had a VERY unique way of thinking about stuff.
ive just ordered his periodic table of elements, and will try to figure out,
with a friend who is into math and music, how the 9 octave periodic table of
elements contains helionon, the polar opposite (when lit, implodes) of
hydrogen -- and if there is a way of figuring out scales of combined
elements  out of it. there has got to be - because russell didnt just throw
that stuff up on a piece of paper for fun - it will be tied into the music
of the spheres and  microcosm/macrocosm (as above so below) type thinking.
apparently nobody has done much with the periodic table of elements.

but yeah, his scientific sketches are wicked!
Scientific Drawings<http://www.philosophy.org/index.php?option=com_zoom&Itemid=37&catid=3>
In 1926, Walter Russell published The Universal One, his first book of
Russell Cosmogony, sending out copies to over five hundred leading world
scientists.

some guts!



On 09/04/07, R.C.Macaulay <walhalla@cvtv.net> wrote:
>
>
> Howdy Jones,
>
> Another link to Russell, fascinating , real person
>
> http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8989/
>
> Richard
>
>

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Walter Russell: The Secret of Light &lt; <a href="http://www.philosophy.org/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=15&amp;Itemid=35">http://www.philosophy.org/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=15&amp;Itemid=35
</a> &gt;<br>Walter Russell: Space and the Hydrogen Age &lt; <a href="http://www.philosophy.org/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=3&amp;Itemid=35">http://www.philosophy.org/index.php?option=com_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=3&amp;Itemid=35
</a> &gt;<br><br>he had a VERY unique way of thinking about stuff.<br>ive just ordered his periodic table of elements, and will try to figure out, with a friend who is into math and music, how the 9 octave periodic table of elements contains helionon, the polar opposite (when lit, implodes) of hydrogen -- and if there is a way of figuring out scales of combined elements&nbsp; out of it. there has got to be - because russell didnt just throw that stuff up on a piece of paper for fun - it will be tied into the music of the spheres and&nbsp; microcosm/macrocosm (as above so below) type thinking. apparently nobody has done much with the periodic table of elements.
<br><br>but yeah, his scientific sketches are wicked!<br><a href="http://www.philosophy.org/index.php?option=com_zoom&amp;Itemid=37&amp;catid=3">
                Scientific Drawings</a><br>In 
1926, Walter Russell published The Universal One, his first 
book of Russell Cosmogony, sending out copies to over five hundred 
leading world scientists.<br><br>some guts!<br><br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 09/04/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">R.C.Macaulay</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:walhalla@cvtv.net">walhalla@cvtv.net</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>Howdy Jones,<br><br>Another link to Russell, fascinating , real person<br><br><a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8989/">
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/8989/</a><br><br>Richard<br><br></blockquote></div><br>

------=_Part_30532_13942623.1176093308746--

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 00:09:16 2007
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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner@mtaonline.net>
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 23:08:56 -0800
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LOCAL COSMIC MATTER   APRIL 8, 2007

DARK ENERGY

An exploration of the concepts of gravimagnetism, and specifically =20
the concept of negative mass charge, were discussed in:

http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GR-and-QM.pdf

Gravitational penumbrae were discussed in:

http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GravityUmbra.pdf

As noted in the above articles, gravity must necessarily be reduced =20
by the effects of propagation delay, gravitational red shift, and =20
graviton absorption.   These effects, along with errors in mass =20
estimation due to failure to account for gravimagnetic effects, may =20
account in part for =93dark energy=94 energy observations, the tendency =20=

for gravity to be reduced with distance.   Further,  through =20
symmetry, gravimagnetics indicates the existence of  negative mass =20
charge, charge having negative imaginary value.    If such charges =20
exist, then super massive black holes above a critical mass are =20
predicted to spew forth, to manufacture from the vacuum,  mass having =20=

a charge opposed to that of the mass of such a gushing black hole.  =20
In the case of spinning black holes or highly magnetic black holes, =20
such an outward flow of matter would be funneled into polar jets.  =20
The existence of such jets at the cores of massive galaxies provide =20
some evidence for the existence of this phenomenon.

The existence of negative mass charge necessitates the existence of a =20=

repulsive gravitational force and negative gravitational charge =20
containing matter.   This matter would have negative weight here on =20
earth.  Such matter might simply be called cosmic matter, because the =20=

word cosmic is short, and recognizes the likely source of such matter.

Cosmic matter is not necessarily antimatter as it can be either =20
matter or antimatter.   In fact, again by symmetry, it seems likely a =20=

cosmic gamma should decay into a cosmic e+ and e-.  Cosmic matter =20
attracts itself, so in a locality consisting entirely of cosmic =20
matter nothing would appear different from our locality.  Its spectra =20=

should be normal, though photons emitted by such matter (cosmic =20
photons) should also carry negative mass charge, so would be =20
detectable by gravitational *concave* lensing.    What distinguishes =20
cosmic matter is that it gravitationally repels normal matter and =20
attracts itself.


DARK MATTER AND MIRROR MATTER

Cosmic matter is not necessarily mirror matter, because mirror matter =20=

has only gravitational charge to us in a normal matter world.  Mirror =20=

photons, both virtual and real, have little effect on us.  In fact, =20
if mirror matter exists, then symmetry demands the existence of =20
mirror matter having both positive and negative mass charge.   Cosmic =20=

matter can be either mirror matter or not.  Further, a black hole =20
consisting of  either mirror matter or normal matter, or a mixture of =20=

both types, when of sufficient size, should be expected to =20
simultaneously spew forth both normal and mirror matter of the =20
opposed gravitational charge, and in equal proportions.  This effect =20
could account for the large proportion of dark matter in the universe.


COSMOLOGICAL CONSEQUENCES

The existence of cosmic matter has profound cosmological =20
consequences.  As ordinary black holes gain mass they spew forth =20
cosmic matter.  Such matter should repel out a local space for itself =20=

and form stars and eventually cosmic matter black holes.   Cosmic =20
matter black holes would clearly then repeat the process in reverse.  =20=

The continual generation of pockets of repelling matter guarantees =20
the continual expansion of the universe.  Overall, the universe must =20
expand indefinitely, but in localized zones consisting primarily of =20
one charge type or another, a phoenix effect takes place through =20
generations of alternating black hole types.


COSMIC RAYS AS DARK ENERGY

Some high energy particles, cosmic rays, can be expected to mix into =20
pockets of the opposing kind, creating dark energy effects even =20
within local homogeneous pockets.  Some of the cosmic rays of high =20
energy that enter our solar system and impinge on the earth could =20
consist of cosmic matter.   Cosmic rays made of cosmic matter have =20
far more energy than required to overcome the gravitational repulsion =20=

of our earth, our sun and our galaxy.  Cosmic matter may exist in =20
detectible quantities right here on earth.  Further, like  cosmic =20
rays in general, it should be expected to occupy the space around us =20
in a highly uniform density and isotropic velocity distribution.  =20
Given that a fixed proportion of such cosmic rays are cosmic matter, =20
then this could explain the Pioneer Anomaly - that the Pioneer 1 and =20
2 spacecraft see a reduction in gravity as the intervening distance =20
to earth increases, and in proportion to such distance.  The =20
repellant cosmic mass between earth and the Pioneers increases =20
linearly with the distance separating them, as does the force of dark =20=

energy observed.

SEARCHING FOR COSMIC MATTER

Cosmic matter arrives here as comic rays.   About 90 percent of =20
cosmic rays are hydrogen, but they impact atmospheric molecules and =20
cause a shower of particles, including gammas, neutrons, kaons, pions =20=

and mesons.  It is possible the imaginary mass charge is preserved, =20
and most likely detectable product is the hydrogen atom.

It might be possible to detect cosmic electrons, but the low mass of =20
the electron combined with its high charge to mass ratio makes a =20
negative gravitational mass detection very difficult.  A very slow =20
electron beam separation over over a long distance might be required =20
to distinguish one species from the other.  Perhaps cosmic electrons =20
could be sorted out in a long but ordinary resistor, or =20
electrochemical cell, due to a gravitational force powered upward =20
drift causing positive buoyancy.   Centrifuges would be of no use. =20
Only gravity can do the separation.

Isolating cosmic hydrogen might be much easier than cosmic electrons =20
or even protons, if enough concentration exists on earth.  An =20
excellent source of cosmic particles in general would be melting =20
glacier ice.  Surface tension should hold cosmic particles in the =20
water long enough to be sampled.  Cosmic hydrogen in water would be =20
bound in H2O like ordinary hydrogen - at least long enough to grab =20
samples.  If the hydrogen is electrolyzed from the water, and then =20
liquified, it should result in three types.  Ordinary hydrogen,  half-=20=

ordinary-half-cosmic hybrid hydrogen which is highly buoyant, and =20
pure cosmic water with two cosmic protons having negative weight.   =20
If a visible amount of liquid cosmic hydrogen is made it should be =20
easy to detect floating in the sealed top of a dewar.   If enough of =20
the stuff exists, it might even be possible to separate water =20
molecules based on increasing bouyancy with increasing number of =20
cosmic hydrogen atoms,  and then detect them via their bulk water =20
density.

Cosmic rays also sometimes consist of Calcium, Iron and Gallium, =20
Lithium or Beryllium.  The latter three, if in sufficient quantity,  =20
should be fairly easy to isolate from glacial runoff, and the cosmic =20
species easily identified if present in sufficient quantities.

If tons of pure cosmic matter could be isolated, it could obviously =20
be extremely useful for earth to orbit and space vehicles for =20
reducing the space ship weight.

Regards,

Horace Heffner=

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 00:36:15 2007
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Subject: [Vo]: 
Status: RO
X-Status: 

LOCAL COSMIC MATTER - APRIL 8, 2007

DARK ENERGY

An exploration of the concepts of gravimagnetism, and specifically =20
the concept of negative mass charge, were discussed in:

    http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GR-and-QM.pdf

Gravitational penumbrae were discussed in:

http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GravityUmbra.pdf

As noted in the above articles, gravity must necessarily be reduced =20
by the effects of propagation delay, gravitational red shift, and =20
graviton absorption.   These effects, along with errors in mass =20
estimation due to failure to account for gravimagnetic effects, may =20
account in part for =93dark energy=94 energy observations, the tendency =20=

for gravity to be reduced with distance.   Further,  through =20
symmetry, gravimagnetics indicates the existence of  negative mass =20
charge, charge having negative imaginary value.    If such charges =20
exist, then super massive black holes above a critical mass are =20
predicted to spew forth, to manufacture from the vacuum,  mass having =20=

a charge opposed to that of the mass of such a gushing black hole.  =20
In the case of spinning black holes or highly magnetic black holes, =20
such an outward flow of matter would be funneled into polar jets.  =20
The existence of such jets at the cores of massive galaxies provide =20
some evidence for the existence of this phenomenon.

The existence of negative mass charge necessitates the existence of a =20=

repulsive gravitational force and negative gravitational charge =20
containing matter.   This matter would have negative weight here on =20
earth.  Such matter might simply be called cosmic matter, because the =20=

word cosmic is short, and recognizes the likely source of such matter.

Cosmic matter is not necessarily antimatter as it can be either =20
matter or antimatter.   In fact, again by symmetry, it seems likely a =20=

cosmic gamma should decay into a cosmic e+ and cosmic e-.  Cosmic =20
matter attracts itself, so in a locality consisting entirely of =20
cosmic matter nothing would appear different from our locality.  Its =20
spectra should be normal, though photons emitted by such matter =20
(cosmic photons) should also carry negative mass charge, so would be =20
detectable by gravitational concave lensing.    Similarly, ordinary =20
ligh would experience concave lensing near a cosmic black hole.  What =20=

distinguishes cosmic matter is that it gravitationally repels normal =20
matter and attracts itself.


DARK MATTER AND MIRROR MATTER

Cosmic matter is not necessarily mirror matter, because mirror matter =20=

has only gravitational charge to us in a normal matter world.  Mirror =20=

photons, both virtual and real, have little effect on us.  In fact, =20
if mirror matter exists, then symmetry demands the existence of =20
mirror matter having both positive and negative mass charge.   Cosmic =20=

matter can be either mirror matter or not.  Further, a black hole =20
consisting of  either mirror matter or normal matter, or a mixture of =20=

both types, when of sufficient size, should be expected to =20
simultaneously spew forth both normal and mirror matter of the =20
opposed gravitational charge, and in equal proportions.  This effect =20
could account for the large proportion of dark matter in the universe.


COSMOLOGICAL CONSEQUENCES

The existence of cosmic matter has profound cosmological =20
consequences.  As ordinary black holes gain mass they spew forth =20
cosmic matter.  Such matter should repel out a local space for itself =20=

and form stars and eventually cosmic matter black holes.   Cosmic =20
matter black holes would clearly then repeat the process in reverse.  =20=

The continual generation of pockets of repelling matter guarantees =20
the continual expansion of the universe.  Overall, the universe must =20
expand indefinitely, but in localized zones consisting primarily of =20
one charge type or another, a phoenix effect takes place through =20
generations of alternating black hole types.


COSMIC RAYS AS DARK ENERGY

Some high energy particles, cosmic rays, can be expected to mix into =20
pockets of the opposing kind, creating dark energy effects even =20
within local homogeneous pockets.  Some of the cosmic rays of high =20
energy that enter our solar system and impinge on the earth could =20
consist of cosmic matter.   Cosmic rays made of cosmic matter have =20
far more energy than required to overcome the gravitational repulsion =20=

of our earth, our sun and our galaxy.  Cosmic matter may exist in =20
detectible quantities right here on earth.  Further, like  cosmic =20
rays in general, it should be expected to occupy the space around us =20
in a highly uniform density and isotropic velocity distribution.  =20
Given that a fixed proportion of such cosmic rays are cosmic matter, =20
then this could explain the Pioneer Anomaly - that the Pioneer 1 and =20
2 spacecraft see a reduction in gravity as the intervening distance =20
to earth increases, and in proportion to such distance.  The =20
repellant cosmic mass between earth and the Pioneers increases =20
linearly with the distance separating them, as does the force of dark =20=

energy observed.

SEARCHING FOR COSMIC MATTER

Cosmic matter arrives here as comic rays.   About 90 percent of =20
cosmic rays are hydrogen, but they impact atmospheric molecules and =20
cause a shower of particles, including gammas, neutrons, kaons, pions =20=

and mesons.  It is possible the imaginary mass charge is preserved, =20
and most likely detectable product is the hydrogen atom.

It might be possible to detect cosmic electrons, but the low mass of =20
the electron combined with its high charge to mass ratio makes a =20
negative gravitational mass detection very difficult.  A very slow =20
electron beam separation over over a long distance might be required =20
to distinguish one species from the other.  Perhaps cosmic electrons =20
could be sorted out in a long but ordinary resistor, or =20
electrochemical cell, due to a gravitational force powered upward =20
drift causing positive buoyancy.   Centrifuges would be of no use. =20
Only gravity can do the separation.

Isolating cosmic hydrogen might be much easier than cosmic electrons =20
or even protons, if enough concentration exists on earth.  An =20
excellent source of cosmic particles in general would be melting =20
glacier ice.  Surface tension should hold cosmic particles in the =20
water long enough to be sampled.  Cosmic hydrogen in water would be =20
bound in H2O like ordinary hydrogen - at least long enough to grab =20
samples.  If the hydrogen is electrolyzed from the water, and then =20
liquified, it should result in three types.  Ordinary hydrogen,  half-=20=

ordinary-half-cosmic hybrid hydrogen which is highly buoyant, and =20
pure cosmic water with two cosmic protons having negative weight.   =20
If a visible amount of liquid cosmic hydrogen is made it should be =20
easy to detect floating in the sealed top of a dewar.   If enough of =20
the stuff exists, it might even be possible to separate water =20
molecules based on increasing bouyancy with increasing number of =20
cosmic hydrogen atoms,  and then detect them via their bulk water =20
density.

Cosmic rays also sometimes consist of Calcium, Iron and Gallium, =20
Lithium or Beryllium.  The latter three, if in sufficient quantity,  =20
should be fairly easy to isolate from glacial runoff, and the cosmic =20
species easily identified if present in sufficient quantities.

If tons of pure cosmic matter could be isolated, it could obviously =20
be extremely useful for earth to orbit and space vehicles for =20
reducing the space ship weight.

Regards,

Horace Heffner=

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 07:52:10 2007
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Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2007 07:51:41 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
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=2E.. am trying to put a subject line on this posting, as it fell prey to=
=20
the Vo blank subject 'virus'...

I love the symmetry implications of this essay. Not to mention the=20
energy implications: "Cosmic rays also sometimes consist of Calcium,=20
Iron and Gallium, Lithium or Beryllium.  The latter three, if in=20
sufficient quantity,  should be  fairly easy to isolate from glacial=20
runoff, and the cosmic species easily identified if present in=20
sufficient quantities."

No doubt the "glacial runoff" aspect of this is already being=20
investigated by Horace... and perhaps a bit earlier than normal this=20
year as the Glaciers in Alaska are melting.

Is this related to long life expectancies in certain areas?

It all ties into the "something in the water" aspect of the Graneau=20
water arc - as well. Not to mention the other water-health hypotheses=20
(as an alternative or explanation of Ormus or magnetite enhancement).

Perhaps there is a form of magnetite-colloid which consists of several=20
normal Fe atoms which are bound to a cosmic-matter allotrope ???

Jones


Horace Heffner wrote:
> LOCAL COSMIC MATTER - APRIL 8, 2007
>=20
> DARK ENERGY
>=20
> An exploration of the concepts of gravimagnetism, and specifically the =

> concept of negative mass charge, were discussed in:
>=20
>    http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GR-and-QM.pdf
>=20
> Gravitational penumbrae were discussed in:
>=20
> http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GravityUmbra.pdf
>=20
> As noted in the above articles, gravity must necessarily be reduced by =

> the effects of propagation delay, gravitational red shift, and graviton=
=20
> absorption.   These effects, along with errors in mass estimation due t=
o=20
> failure to account for gravimagnetic effects, may account in part for=20
> =93dark energy=94 energy observations, the tendency for gravity to be=20
> reduced with distance.   Further,  through symmetry, gravimagnetics=20
> indicates the existence of  negative mass charge, charge having negativ=
e=20
> imaginary value.    If such charges exist, then super massive black=20
> holes above a critical mass are predicted to spew forth, to manufacture=
=20
> from the vacuum,  mass having a charge opposed to that of the mass of=20
> such a gushing black hole.  In the case of spinning black holes or=20
> highly magnetic black holes, such an outward flow of matter would be=20
> funneled into polar jets.  The existence of such jets at the cores of=20
> massive galaxies provide some evidence for the existence of this=20
> phenomenon.
>=20
> The existence of negative mass charge necessitates the existence of a=20
> repulsive gravitational force and negative gravitational charge=20
> containing matter.   This matter would have negative weight here on=20
> earth.  Such matter might simply be called cosmic matter, because the=20
> word cosmic is short, and recognizes the likely source of such matter.
>=20
> Cosmic matter is not necessarily antimatter as it can be either matter =

> or antimatter.   In fact, again by symmetry, it seems likely a cosmic=20
> gamma should decay into a cosmic e+ and cosmic e-.  Cosmic matter=20
> attracts itself, so in a locality consisting entirely of cosmic matter =

> nothing would appear different from our locality.  Its spectra should b=
e=20
> normal, though photons emitted by such matter (cosmic photons) should=20
> also carry negative mass charge, so would be detectable by gravitationa=
l=20
> concave lensing.    Similarly, ordinary ligh would experience concave=20
> lensing near a cosmic black hole.  What distinguishes cosmic matter is =

> that it gravitationally repels normal matter and attracts itself.
>=20
>=20
> DARK MATTER AND MIRROR MATTER
>=20
> Cosmic matter is not necessarily mirror matter, because mirror matter=20
> has only gravitational charge to us in a normal matter world.  Mirror=20
> photons, both virtual and real, have little effect on us.  In fact, if =

> mirror matter exists, then symmetry demands the existence of mirror=20
> matter having both positive and negative mass charge.   Cosmic matter=20
> can be either mirror matter or not.  Further, a black hole consisting=20
> of  either mirror matter or normal matter, or a mixture of both types, =

> when of sufficient size, should be expected to simultaneously spew fort=
h=20
> both normal and mirror matter of the opposed gravitational charge, and =

> in equal proportions.  This effect could account for the large=20
> proportion of dark matter in the universe.
>=20
>=20
> COSMOLOGICAL CONSEQUENCES
>=20
> The existence of cosmic matter has profound cosmological consequences. =
=20
> As ordinary black holes gain mass they spew forth cosmic matter.  Such =

> matter should repel out a local space for itself and form stars and=20
> eventually cosmic matter black holes.   Cosmic matter black holes would=
=20
> clearly then repeat the process in reverse.  The continual generation o=
f=20
> pockets of repelling matter guarantees the continual expansion of the=20
> universe.  Overall, the universe must expand indefinitely, but in=20
> localized zones consisting primarily of one charge type or another, a=20
> phoenix effect takes place through generations of alternating black hol=
e=20
> types.
>=20
>=20
> COSMIC RAYS AS DARK ENERGY
>=20
> Some high energy particles, cosmic rays, can be expected to mix into=20
> pockets of the opposing kind, creating dark energy effects even within =

> local homogeneous pockets.  Some of the cosmic rays of high energy that=
=20
> enter our solar system and impinge on the earth could consist of cosmic=
=20
> matter.   Cosmic rays made of cosmic matter have far more energy than=20
> required to overcome the gravitational repulsion of our earth, our sun =

> and our galaxy.  Cosmic matter may exist in detectible quantities right=
=20
> here on earth.  Further, like  cosmic rays in general, it should be=20
> expected to occupy the space around us in a highly uniform density and =

> isotropic velocity distribution.  Given that a fixed proportion of such=
=20
> cosmic rays are cosmic matter, then this could explain the Pioneer=20
> Anomaly - that the Pioneer 1 and 2 spacecraft see a reduction in gravit=
y=20
> as the intervening distance to earth increases, and in proportion to=20
> such distance.  The repellant cosmic mass between earth and the Pioneer=
s=20
> increases linearly with the distance separating them, as does the force=
=20
> of dark energy observed.
>=20
> SEARCHING FOR COSMIC MATTER
>=20
> Cosmic matter arrives here as comic rays.   About 90 percent of cosmic =

> rays are hydrogen, but they impact atmospheric molecules and cause a=20
> shower of particles, including gammas, neutrons, kaons, pions and=20
> mesons.  It is possible the imaginary mass charge is preserved, and mos=
t=20
> likely detectable product is the hydrogen atom.
>=20
> It might be possible to detect cosmic electrons, but the low mass of th=
e=20
> electron combined with its high charge to mass ratio makes a negative=20
> gravitational mass detection very difficult.  A very slow electron beam=
=20
> separation over over a long distance might be required to distinguish=20
> one species from the other.  Perhaps cosmic electrons could be sorted=20
> out in a long but ordinary resistor, or electrochemical cell, due to a =

> gravitational force powered upward drift causing positive buoyancy.  =20
> Centrifuges would be of no use. Only gravity can do the separation.
>=20
> Isolating cosmic hydrogen might be much easier than cosmic electrons or=
=20
> even protons, if enough concentration exists on earth.  An excellent=20
> source of cosmic particles in general would be melting glacier ice. =20
> Surface tension should hold cosmic particles in the water long enough t=
o=20
> be sampled.  Cosmic hydrogen in water would be bound in H2O like=20
> ordinary hydrogen - at least long enough to grab samples.  If the=20
> hydrogen is electrolyzed from the water, and then liquified, it should =

> result in three types.  Ordinary hydrogen,  half-ordinary-half-cosmic=20
> hybrid hydrogen which is highly buoyant, and pure cosmic water with two=
=20
> cosmic protons having negative weight.   If a visible amount of liquid =

> cosmic hydrogen is made it should be easy to detect floating in the=20
> sealed top of a dewar.   If enough of the stuff exists, it might even b=
e=20
> possible to separate water molecules based on increasing bouyancy with =

> increasing number of cosmic hydrogen atoms,  and then detect them via=20
> their bulk water density.
>=20
> Cosmic rays also sometimes consist of Calcium, Iron and Gallium, Lithiu=
m=20
> or Beryllium.  The latter three, if in sufficient quantity,  should be =

> fairly easy to isolate from glacial runoff, and the cosmic species=20
> easily identified if present in sufficient quantities.
>=20
> If tons of pure cosmic matter could be isolated, it could obviously be =

> extremely useful for earth to orbit and space vehicles for reducing the=
=20
> space ship weight.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Horace Heffner
>=20

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> Perhaps there is a form of magnetite-colloid which consists of several 
> normal Fe atoms which are bound to a cosmic-matter allotrope ???

Meant to add - "bound magnetically" since the ferromagnetic force would 
overwhelm the slight gravitational replusion....

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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner@mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Local Cosmic Matter
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 07:13:37 -0800
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LOCAL COSMIC MATTER - APRIL 8, 2007

DARK ENERGY

An exploration of the concepts of gravimagnetism, and specifically =20
the concept of negative mass charge, were discussed in:

    http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GR-and-QM.pdf

Gravitational penumbrae were discussed in:

http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/GravityUmbra.pdf

As noted in the above articles, gravity must necessarily be reduced =20
by the effects of propagation delay, gravitational red shift, and =20
graviton absorption.   These effects, along with errors in mass =20
estimation due to failure to account for gravimagnetic effects, may =20
account in part for =93dark energy=94 energy observations, the tendency =20=

for gravity to be reduced with distance.   Further,  through =20
symmetry, gravimagnetics indicates the existence of  negative mass =20
charge, charge having negative imaginary value.    If such charges =20
exist, then super massive black holes above a critical mass are =20
predicted to spew forth, to manufacture from the vacuum,  mass having =20=

a charge opposed to that of the mass of such a gushing black hole.  =20
In the case of spinning black holes or highly magnetic black holes, =20
such an outward flow of matter would be funneled into polar jets.  =20
The existence of such jets at the cores of massive galaxies provide =20
some evidence for the existence of this phenomenon.

The existence of negative mass charge necessitates the existence of a =20=

repulsive gravitational force and negative gravitational charge =20
containing matter.   This matter would have negative weight here on =20
earth.  Such matter might simply be called cosmic matter, because the =20=

word cosmic is short, and recognizes the likely source of such matter.

Cosmic matter is not necessarily antimatter as it can be either =20
matter or antimatter.   In fact, again by symmetry, it seems likely a =20=

cosmic gamma should decay into a cosmic e+ and cosmic e-.  Cosmic =20
matter attracts itself, so in a locality consisting entirely of =20
cosmic matter nothing would appear different from our locality.  Its =20
spectra should be normal, though photons emitted by such matter =20
(cosmic photons) should also carry negative mass charge, so would be =20
detectable by gravitational concave lensing.    Similarly, ordinary =20
ligh would experience concave lensing near a cosmic black hole.  What =20=

distinguishes cosmic matter is that it gravitationally repels normal =20
matter and attracts itself.


DARK MATTER AND MIRROR MATTER

Cosmic matter is not necessarily mirror matter, because mirror matter =20=

has only gravitational charge to us in a normal matter world.  Mirror =20=

photons, both virtual and real, have little effect on us.  In fact, =20
if mirror matter exists, then symmetry demands the existence of =20
mirror matter having both positive and negative mass charge.   Cosmic =20=

matter can be either mirror matter or not.  Further, a black hole =20
consisting of  either mirror matter or normal matter, or a mixture of =20=

both types, when of sufficient size, should be expected to =20
simultaneously spew forth both normal and mirror matter of the =20
opposed gravitational charge, and in equal proportions.  This effect =20
could account for the large proportion of dark matter in the universe.


COSMOLOGICAL CONSEQUENCES

The existence of cosmic matter has profound cosmological =20
consequences.  As ordinary black holes gain mass they spew forth =20
cosmic matter.  Such matter should repel out a local space for itself =20=

and form stars and eventually cosmic matter black holes.   Cosmic =20
matter black holes would clearly then repeat the process in reverse.  =20=

The continual generation of pockets of repelling matter guarantees =20
the continual expansion of the universe.  Overall, the universe must =20
expand indefinitely, but in localized zones consisting primarily of =20
one charge type or another, a phoenix effect takes place through =20
generations of alternating black hole types.


COSMIC RAYS AS DARK ENERGY

Some high energy particles, cosmic rays, can be expected to mix into =20
pockets of the opposing kind, creating dark energy effects even =20
within local homogeneous pockets.  Some of the cosmic rays of high =20
energy that enter our solar system and impinge on the earth could =20
consist of cosmic matter.   Cosmic rays made of cosmic matter have =20
far more energy than required to overcome the gravitational repulsion =20=

of our earth, our sun and our galaxy.  Cosmic matter may exist in =20
detectible quantities right here on earth.  Further, like  cosmic =20
rays in general, it should be expected to occupy the space around us =20
in a highly uniform density and isotropic velocity distribution.  =20
Given that a fixed proportion of such cosmic rays are cosmic matter, =20
then this could explain the Pioneer Anomaly - that the Pioneer 10 and =20=

11 spacecraft see a reduction in gravity as the intervening distance =20
to earth increases, and in proportion to such distance.  The =20
repellant cosmic mass between earth and the Pioneers increases =20
linearly with the distance separating them, as does the force of dark =20=

energy observed.


SEARCHING FOR COSMIC MATTER

Cosmic matter arrives here as comic rays.   About 90 percent of =20
cosmic rays are hydrogen, but they impact atmospheric molecules and =20
cause a shower of particles, including gammas, neutrons, kaons, pions =20=

and mesons.  It is possible the imaginary mass charge is preserved, =20
and most likely detectable product is the hydrogen atom.

It might be possible to detect cosmic electrons, but the low mass of =20
the electron combined with its high charge to mass ratio makes a =20
negative gravitational mass detection very difficult.  A very slow =20
electron beam separation over over a long distance might be required =20
to distinguish one species from the other.  Perhaps cosmic electrons =20
could be sorted out in a long but ordinary resistor, or =20
electrochemical cell, due to a gravitational force powered upward =20
drift causing positive buoyancy.   Centrifuges would be of no use to =20
look for cosmic matter, only mirror matter.  Only gravity can do the =20
separation of cosmic matter.

Isolating cosmic hydrogen might be much easier than cosmic electrons =20
or even protons, if enough concentration exists on earth.  An =20
excellent source of cosmic particles in general would be melting =20
glacier ice.  Surface tension should hold cosmic particles in the =20
water long enough to be sampled.  Cosmic hydrogen in water would be =20
bound in H2O like ordinary hydrogen - at least long enough to grab =20
samples.  If the hydrogen is electrolyzed from the water, and then =20
liquified, it should result in three types.  Ordinary hydrogen,  half-=20=

ordinary-half-cosmic hybrid hydrogen which is highly buoyant, and =20
pure cosmic water with two cosmic protons having negative weight.   =20
If a visible amount of liquid cosmic hydrogen is made it should be =20
easy to detect floating in the sealed top of a dewar.   If enough of =20
the stuff exists, it might even be possible to separate water =20
molecules based on increasing bouyancy with increasing number of =20
cosmic hydrogen atoms,  and then detect them via their bulk water =20
density.

Cosmic rays also sometimes consist of Calcium, Iron, Gallium, Lithium =20=

or Beryllium.  The latter three, if in sufficient quantity,  should =20
be fairly easy to isolate from glacial runoff, and the cosmic species =20=

easily identified if present in sufficient quantities.

If tons of pure cosmic matter could be isolated, it could obviously =20
be extremely useful for earth to orbit and space vehicles for =20
reducing the space ship weight.

Regards,

Horace Heffner

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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner@mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:  Local Cosmic Matter
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2007 07:52:55 -0800
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On Apr 9, 2007, at 6:51 AM, Jones Beene wrote:

> ... am trying to put a subject line on this posting, as it fell  
> prey to the Vo blank subject 'virus'...

Yes, I'm still trying as well, and that was indeed the title swallowed.


>
> I love the symmetry implications of this essay. Not to mention the  
> energy implications: "Cosmic rays also sometimes consist of  
> Calcium, Iron and Gallium, Lithium or Beryllium.  The latter three,  
> if in sufficient quantity,  should be  fairly easy to isolate from  
> glacial runoff, and the cosmic species easily identified if present  
> in sufficient quantities."
>
> No doubt the "glacial runoff" aspect of this is already being  
> investigated by Horace...

No not yet.  I've certainly considered it in the past, especially in  
relation to mirror matter or monopoles, but it would be difficult for  
me these days.


> and perhaps a bit earlier than normal this year as the Glaciers in  
> Alaska are melting.

Yes, melting away.  What a waste on so many levels.

>
> Is this related to long life expectancies in certain areas?

The stuff would have practically no effect as far as I know - except  
possibly in energy balances, and that only in high concentrations and  
only if some form of gravitational charge annihilation can occur.    
If cosmic matter did have some chemical effect then that would be  
handy for detecting or isolating it.  Mirror matter, as ghostly as it  
is, would likely be more detectable.  See:

http://www.ph.unimelb.edu.au/~foot/


>
> It all ties into the "something in the water" aspect of the Graneau  
> water arc - as well. Not to mention the other water-health  
> hypotheses (as an alternative or explanation of Ormus or magnetite  
> enhancement).

I must admit Graneau's "something in the water" aspect has had me  
puzzled. I find it hard to believe it is just sunlight.  Exposure to  
cosmic rays doesn't require placing in sunlight though, so I just  
don't know what's going on there.

>
> Perhaps there is a form of magnetite-colloid which consists of  
> several normal Fe atoms which are bound to a cosmic-matter  
> allotrope ???

Cosmic matter, if it exists as defined, is all around us, imbedded in  
all kinds of molecules.  Cosmic rays are responsible for maintaining  
the C14 concentration in the atmosphere, 40 tons worth, as well as  
numerous other kinds of crustal isotopes.  Over 4 billion years  
worth.  That's a lot of matter.  C14 is in every living thing.   
Further, meteoric dust rains down on us daily, continually burying  
past artifacts, as well as seeding rain and snow.  Many meteors have  
been exposed to cosmic rays for billions of years.

Regards,

Horace Heffner

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Subject: [Vo]: Re: Walter Russell
Status: O
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Since 'synchronicity' is apparently trying to juxtapose a remembrance of =

Walter Russell with intriguing speculation about the identity of various =

cosmic species from black holes - and other dark matter candidates...

=2E..including perhaps, Russell's concept of an inert "helionon"

Then it would be remiss not to add something additional onto the=20
implication of the Laughlin quasi-particle - which is a subset of the=20
fractionally charged electron. Here is the recent story of 'new state of =

matter' mentioned a few weeks ago. Notice that Millikan/ Ehrenhaft is=20
never mentioned. Potential big blunders seldom are.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-03/ns-hrf031407.php

After all - a Nobel came out of that work, and the fractional quantum=20
hall effect (FQHE) is mainstream, but lest one stray a little in any=20
direction from there and whoa ... pathological science <g>.

W. Russell had already predicted Neptunium and Plutonium, many years=20
ahead of their discovery- which elements were published in his=20
alternative periodic table of the elements in 1926. He named them=20
Uridium and Urium. He did not receive the Nobel for this prediction=20
however. He was not a mainstream tenured physicist - so how could he?=20
"We have to protect our phony baloney jobs," as Mel Brooks might opine.

Back to tenured physicists (at Stanford - i.e. Laughlin). From the=20
article: "In the experiment, electrons moving in the interface between=20
two semiconductors behaved as though they were made up of particles with =

only a fraction of the electron=92s charge."

This so-called fractional quantum hall effect (FQHE) suggested that=20
fully charged electrons may not be elementary particles after all.=20
Electrons under certain conditions can congregate in a way that gives=20
them the illusion of having fractional charge =96 an explanation that=20
earned Laughlin, Horst St=F6rmer and Daniel Tsui [L.S.T.] the Nobel prize=
"=20
[in 1998]. It is not clear that Russell's table does not also predict=20
this particle, nor that quantum "half-spin" is not also a recognition=20
that this particle e- is never fully in our 3-space.

Even if it is, isn't the "illusion of having fractional charge" a nice=20
way of telling the mainstream - "hey, you already blew it once, but=20
we're not going to rub it in just yet, if we get the big prize"?

Enough salt in that wound.... which is a long way from healing.

Anyway - a further candidate particle, created under "certain=20
conditions" which should be mentioned in this context is a proton bound=20
by two fractionally charged electrons at a radius greatly below the Bohr =

radius...

- and electrically neutral due to fractionally charge (each of 1/2=20
normal charge).

This is not the Mills hydrino-hydride, as he firmly predicts that=20
particular particle to have a -1 charge. That mistake on his part is=20
probably why he has never been able to demonstrate the species, at least =

to a skeptical audience (and may never win the big one).

Next to consider: a variation of Fred Sparber's idea of the leptonic=20
triad "electronium" but this candidate species would be an uncharged=20
variety consisting of a fully charged positron and two fractionally=20
charged (1/2 normal charge) electrons. The advantage of this species=20
over Ps in certain situations - is that it can account for the=20
appearance of an electron in 3-space with no source (if one is willing=20
to dispense with any requirement for conservation of charge across=20
dimensional boundaries).

Is this food-for-thought... or merely time for a 'pepto' to prevent=20
indigestion?

Jones








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BlankJones wrote...
It is not clear that Russell's table does not also predict=20
this particle, nor that quantum "half-spin" is not also a recognition=20
that this particle e- is never fully in our 3-space.

Even if it is, isn't the "illusion of having fractional charge" a nice=20
way of telling the mainstream - "hey, you already blew it once, but=20
we're not going to rub it in just yet, if we get the big prize"?

Is this food-for-thought... or merely time for a 'pepto' to prevent=20
indigestion?

Howdy Jones,

One must have a huge cup of Texas coffee to sip while digesting a "Jones =
moment" and an extemely elastic mind to stretch around thoughts provoked =
by such "moments".

Or as Burl Ives quipped (in the movie " The Big Country") to Chuck =
Conners... "perhaps there's a side to you I never saw before"<grin>

Good wording,,."never fully in our 3-space".  and excellent wording.. =
"illusion of having a fractional charge". Knowing  how these thoughts =
issue forth from that fertile brain of yours is not as important as the =
stimulation. As I sit in my rockin' chair on the front porch of the Dime =
Box Saloon watching a water vortex experiment.... and gaze at the water =
flowing " upward" as it is flowing downward..while emptying the vessel I =
can better accept  both wordings.

 The more we study on it, the less we understand..One of my favorite =
science books.. the book of Job.. contains dialogue with some fellows =
about the workings of nature and concludes with the question by God.{ =
para-phrased by Richard}  " if you are so smart. tell me how I did it".

Richard






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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE id=3DridTitle>Blank</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
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	MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; =
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<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:000b01c77af5$4a476e80$c905a8c0@xptower>
<DIV>Jones wrote...</DIV>
<P>It is not clear that Russell's table does not also predict <BR>this =
particle,=20
nor that quantum "half-spin" is not also a recognition <BR>that this =
particle e-=20
is never fully in our 3-space.<BR><BR>Even if it is, isn't the "illusion =
of=20
having fractional charge" a nice <BR>way of telling the mainstream - =
"hey, you=20
already blew it once, but <BR>we're not going to rub it in just yet, if =
we get=20
the big prize"?</P>
<P>Is this food-for-thought... or merely time for a 'pepto' to prevent=20
<BR>indigestion?</P>
<P>Howdy Jones,</P>
<P>One must have a huge cup of Texas coffee to sip while digesting a =
"Jones=20
moment" and an extemely elastic mind to stretch around thoughts provoked =
by such=20
"moments".</P>
<P>Or as Burl Ives quipped (in the movie " The&nbsp;Big Country") to =
Chuck=20
Conners... "perhaps there's a side to you I never saw =
before"&lt;grin&gt;</P>
<P>Good wording,,."never fully in our 3-space".&nbsp; and excellent =
wording..=20
"illusion of having a fractional charge". Knowing&nbsp; how these =
thoughts issue=20
forth from that fertile brain of yours is not as important as the=20
stimulation.&nbsp;As I sit in my rockin' chair on the front porch of the =
Dime=20
Box Saloon watching a water vortex experiment.... and gaze at the water =
flowing=20
" upward" as it is flowing downward..while emptying the vessel I can =
better=20
accept&nbsp; both wordings.</P>
<P>&nbsp;The more we study on it, the less we understand..One of my =
favorite=20
science books.. the book of Job.. contains dialogue with some fellows =
about the=20
workings of nature and concludes with the question by God.{ para-phrased =
by=20
Richard}&nbsp; " if you are so smart. tell me how I did&nbsp;it".</P>
<P>Richard</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P><BR>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 16:04:44 2007
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Subject: [VO]:Re: Walter Russell
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BlankPhiip wrote..

The truth is that it isn't in any space - 3- or otherwise.  There=20
really is nothing there except what we project/perceive Nth-hand and=20
draw conjectures from... whoever we are.

As Hui Neng said, "From the first there is Nothing."


Howdy Philip,

Yes!, I know that and you know that. Walter Russell spent more time =
thinking about it than I have and he concluded he was open to =
suggestions.
One of these days somebody may explain a lot of things I find no answers =
to... Russell delved into many including the periodic tables etc.. but =
he stopped before he got into colors. hmmm.
  My wife is a renowned artist and she states categorically there are 3 =
primary colors.. but I say there are 12.. we just can't see the rest.=20

Richard



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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE id=3DridTitle>Blank</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
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<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:000801c77afb$74deffe0$c905a8c0@xptower>
<DIV>Phiip wrote..</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The truth is that it isn't in any space - 3- or otherwise.&nbsp; =
There=20
<BR>really is nothing there except what we project/perceive Nth-hand and =

<BR>draw conjectures from... whoever we are.<BR><BR>As Hui Neng said, =
"From the=20
first there is Nothing."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Howdy Philip,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Yes!, I know that and you know that. Walter Russell spent more time =

thinking about it than I have and he concluded he was open to =
suggestions.</DIV>
<DIV>One of these days somebody may explain a lot of things I find no =
answers=20
to... Russell delved into many including the periodic tables etc.. but =
he=20
stopped before he got into colors. hmmm.<BR>&nbsp; My wife is a renowned =
artist=20
and she states categorically there are 3 primary colors.. but I say =
there are=20
12.. we just can't see the rest. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard<BR></DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 16:23:12 2007
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From: Philip Winestone <philip.winestone@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: [VO]:Re: Walter Russell
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Richard,

That "somebody" will be you, no doubt.

I'm a totally unknown artist, and I say that a primary is whatever 
you say is a primary - seen or unseen.

I also happen to be a huge fan of black and of white - nothing and 
everything - and sometimes colours just get in the way of a good picture.

P.


At 07:04 PM 4/9/2007, you wrote:
>Phiip wrote..
>
>The truth is that it isn't in any space - 3- or otherwise.  There
>really is nothing there except what we project/perceive Nth-hand and
>draw conjectures from... whoever we are.
>
>As Hui Neng said, "From the first there is Nothing."
>
>
>Howdy Philip,
>
>Yes!, I know that and you know that. Walter Russell spent more time 
>thinking about it than I have and he concluded he was open to suggestions.
>One of these days somebody may explain a lot of things I find no 
>answers to... Russell delved into many including the periodic tables 
>etc.. but he stopped before he got into colors. hmmm.
>   My wife is a renowned artist and she states categorically there 
> are 3 primary colors.. but I say there are 12.. we just can't see the rest.
>
>Richard
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr  9 15:27:58 2007
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The truth is that it isn't in any space - 3- or otherwise.  There 
really is nothing there except what we project/perceive Nth-hand and 
draw conjectures from... whoever we are.

As Hui Neng said, "From the first there is Nothing."

P.


At 06:20 PM 4/9/2007, you wrote:
>Jones wrote...
>
>It is not clear that Russell's table does not also predict
>this particle, nor that quantum "half-spin" is not also a recognition
>that this particle e- is never fully in our 3-space.
>
>Even if it is, isn't the "illusion of having fractional charge" a nice
>way of telling the mainstream - "hey, you already blew it once, but
>we're not going to rub it in just yet, if we get the big prize"?
>
>Is this food-for-thought... or merely time for a 'pepto' to prevent
>indigestion?
>
>Howdy Jones,
>
>One must have a huge cup of Texas coffee to sip while digesting a 
>"Jones moment" and an extemely elastic mind to stretch around 
>thoughts provoked by such "moments".
>
>Or as Burl Ives quipped (in the movie " The Big Country") to Chuck 
>Conners... "perhaps there's a side to you I never saw before"<grin>
>
>Good wording,,."never fully in our 3-space".  and excellent 
>wording.. "illusion of having a fractional charge". Knowing  how 
>these thoughts issue forth from that fertile brain of yours is not 
>as important as the stimulation. As I sit in my rockin' chair on the 
>front porch of the Dime Box Saloon watching a water vortex 
>experiment.... and gaze at the water flowing " upward" as it is 
>flowing downward..while emptying the vessel I can better accept  both wordings.
>
>  The more we study on it, the less we understand..One of my 
> favorite science books.. the book of Job.. contains dialogue with 
> some fellows about the workings of nature and concludes with the 
> question by God.{ para-phrased by Richard}  " if you are so smart. 
> tell me how I did it".
>
>Richard
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject: [Vo]:Clueless
Status: RO
X-Status: 

W thinks we already have PHEVs obviously:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/04/09/bush-almost-blows-himself-up/

Terry

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 08:39:40 2007
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Subject: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]: 41% efficient solar cells
Status: O
X-Status: 


Jed wrote:

> In December 2006, Boeing-Spectrolab announced a 40.7% efficient cell 
> that costs $3,000 per kW of capacity. That's remarkable. I did not 
> know these things were so advanced. See:

> http://www.energy.gov/news/4503.htm

Yes, but these are not just the flat panel type photovoltaics
we are familiar with.  They are little chips a couple of millimeters
square, requiring concentration of up to 500 suns, and, of course,
solar tracking.  This is not an insurmountable problem, but it won't
be just some flat panels slapped out in the desert.

Naturally, I have tried to interest the people at Spectrolab in my
ultra cheap fresnel lens arrays which would be perfect for this 
application.  Frankly, I can't get arrested with this capability.

M.

_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!


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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 10:23:18 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
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Subject: [Vo]:Sili-Solar alternative ?
Status: O
X-Status: 

Michael Foster's mention of the high efficiency solar cell "requiring=20
concentration of up to 500 suns" raises an interesting point (in prior=20
energy-conversion speculation) which I have been intending to revise for =

some time WRT solar input and employing the device known as the "reverse =

gyrotron" (RG).

Solar energy is remarkable for two things - it can be concentrated=20
cheaply; and it does not require "heat rejection" in the same sense as=20
combustion and the Carnot heat engine. Most of the high expense of=20
present day solar energy is to be found in the cost of exotic silicon,=20
gallium, etc chips - which can be mitigated with solar concentration -=20
up to an extent but there could be a much cheaper solution.

Many here grew up with radio tubes, pre-simiconductor, and are familiar=20
with the "Edison effect" and "thermionic conversion". Thermionic=20
=91topping=92 devices have been around for at least forty years for=20
combustion - but they are not widely used now because the "materials"=20
limitations of high temperature combustion and low efficiency, requiring =

extraordinary heat rejection. Therefore, it is easy to see why many=20
observers will initially balk at a solar application - they are assuming =

that the supposed =91low efficiency=92 is the general-case when in fact i=
t=20
is only a special case (combustion).

There is also the issue of lack of general understanding and=20
appreciation of the "miracle" prior-art direct conversion device known=20
as the "reverse gyrotron" (RG) which is a device which can double the=20
best efficiency of silicon (80% vs 40%).

This device was proposed by R. Mills for hydrino conversion, and=20
prototypes were built but it was never put into production. Hydrino=20
conversion involves UV light, but a similar RG device can work on wide=20
spectrum solar radiation. It is a 'natural' for use with=20
solar-thermionics. Like advanced solar cells, the RG has been=20
demonstrated in prototype form, and the high-efficiency which has been=20
documented is solid and achievable in practice - not speculation. In=20
terms of cost, over silicon, there is an enormous potential for cost=20
savings using focusing mirrors or fresnel film, or some combination to=20
get to the needed temperature range.

In the combustion of fossil fuels, only a small percentage of the total=20
Btu=92s which are released are available for conversion at the =91high en=
d=92=20
of the temperature spectrum i.e. over 2000 degrees F. where thermionic=20
converters become efficient. Therefore, one can never get more than a=20
small percentage of thermionic energy from combustion alone, even if the =

device itself was 100% eff in that spectrum. In contrast, with solar as=20
the input, the =91high end=92 includes everything in the visible and UV=20
spectrum.

The Edison effect is a =93boiling-off=94 electrons from this heat source.=
=20
The electron itself becomes the secondary energy carrier. But the=20
problem is that the voltage potential of simple thermionics is only=20
around 1-2 volts, and this situation runs up against the so-called=20
"space-charge" effect.

Electrons can carry off far more energy (per unit of cathode surface=20
area) than photon radiation, so that the overall system can be=20
engineered to be very compact and efficient using concentrated solar=20
input- if we can avoid the problems with convective heat transfer=20
(rejection) at the low end and low voltage. No convective heat rejection =

at the low-end of the energy spectrum is only possible when the=20
collector cathode is in a near vacuum and the electron emission itself=20
is boosted in voltage potential. IR heat does leave the cathode as=20
blackbody radiation - and that is the inefficiency component.

The lower efficiency numbers which you have seen in textbooks for=20
thermionic conversion (8-10%) are based on the assumption of combustion=20
as the heat source - where the necessity of wide spectrum heat ejection=20
always limits efficiency significantly. The situation with solar can be=20
engineered to be substantially different, especially if there is a=20
work-around for the low-voltage, high-current output of thermionics.=20
Some kind of series wiring of many devices is one solution, but there=20
are many drawbacks there.

The present proposed work-around is to short the anode back to the=20
cathode immediately in every cell, so that 1-2 volts becomes and=20
incremental gradient instead of a self-limiting potential. Obviously if=20
you short your output then you must substitute something else - which is =

to be, in this proposal - RF (cyclotron or gyrotron radio frequency=20
emission).

This derives from putting the cathode and anode inside an axial magnetic =

field so that the electron transit from cathode to anode and back again=20
is in a tight spiral, wherein cyclotron radiation is given off. This RF=20
can be collected externally - or used to accelerate a portion of=20
electrons to very high voltage (which is/was the Mills/BLP approach).=20
Too bad that most of that data has been removed from the BLP site.

Complicated as this explanation seems, the overall system would be even=20
more complicated than what is offered here. Only the solar concentrator=20
is simple, but that is in effect, the enabling tech But this overall RG=20
concept, applied to solar, has been gradually evolving and still looks=20
promising. It has the great advantage of a cost structure that does not=20
depend on exotic materials.

Jones

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 11:53:54 2007
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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:53:34 -0400
To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
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Subject: [Vo]:Mosier-Boss ACS presentation and PowerPoint slides
Status: O
X-Status: 

--=====================_104929234==.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Mosier-Boss, P.A., et al. Pd/D Co-Deposition: Excess Power Generation 
and Its Origin (paper and PowerPoint slides). in 233rd ACS National 
Meeting. 2007. Chicago, IL.

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MosierBosspddcodepos.pdf

I combined the presentation and PowerPoint slides in one file. Let me 
know if you have difficulty opening it.

- Jed

--=====================_104929234==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
Mosier-Boss, P.A., et al. <i>Pd/D Co-Deposition: Excess Power Generation
and Its Origin (paper and PowerPoint slides)</i>. in <i>233rd ACS
National Meeting</i>. 2007. Chicago, IL.<br><br>
<a href="http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MosierBosspddcodepos.pdf" eudora="autourl">
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MosierBosspddcodepos.pdf</a><br><br>
I combined the presentation and PowerPoint slides in one file. Let me
know if you have difficulty opening it.<br><br>
- Jed<br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_104929234==.ALT--

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Apr 11 15:40:11 2007
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Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]: 41% efficient solar cells
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Michael Foster's message of Wed, 11 Apr 2007 11:39:26 -0400 =
(EDT):
Hi,
[snip]
>
>Jed wrote:
>
>> In December 2006, Boeing-Spectrolab announced a 40.7% efficient cell=20
>> that costs $3,000 per kW of capacity. That's remarkable. I did not=20
>> know these things were so advanced. See:
>
>> http://www.energy.gov/news/4503.htm
>
>Yes, but these are not just the flat panel type photovoltaics
>we are familiar with.  They are little chips a couple of millimeters
>square, requiring concentration of up to 500 suns, and, of course,
>solar tracking.  This is not an insurmountable problem, but it won't
>be just some flat panels slapped out in the desert.
>
>Naturally, I have tried to interest the people at Spectrolab in my
>ultra cheap fresnel lens arrays which would be perfect for this=20
>application.  Frankly, I can't get arrested with this capability.
[snip]
As has previously been reported on this list, there is a solar power =
plant being
built here in Oz. They plan to use mirrors to concentrate the light =
400-500
times. I checked out the efficiency curve of the cells they use. It turns=
 out
that at their peak they are 35% efficient, at 400-500 suns, however that =
only
drops off to 33% at about 80 suns. I suspect that if cylindrical Fresnel =
lenses
could achieve 80 suns, then the total plant cost (and consequently the =
cost of
power) could be considerably reduced.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation,
Cooperation (communism) provides the means.

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Apr 12 04:46:42 2007
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From: "Charles M. Brown" <abundance@logonbasic.com>
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Subject: [Vo]:diode array progress
Status: O
X-Status: 

A financial and business backer has been attracted to the 
diode array project. He held conference calls with me and 
first the director and second a design and processing 
specialist of the MEMS-Nanotechnology Exchange where diode 
array development was discussed. I then sent the diode 
array die made by VDI to the specialist. The die with 
~10,000 Au anode spots on GaAs, an upgrade of the die 
tested in 1993, has been waiting on my shelf since 2005 
Nov .

Aloha,

Charlie

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Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 09:48:46 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Vo]:Cat's Cradle Author Dies
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Kurt was one of my favorite authors.  He was 84.  We should all have a
martini for breakfast in his honor.

Terry

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Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Cat's Cradle Author Dies
Status: O
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...hold the ice

Terry Blanton wrote:
> Kurt was one of my favorite authors.  He was 84.  We should all have a
> martini for breakfast in his honor.
> 
> Terry
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Apr 12 11:52:09 2007
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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner@mtaonline.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:51:55 -0800
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Subject: [Vo]:Maveric gravimagnetic forces at play
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The wild and woolly nonlinear 1/r^4 force gyrations of interacting  
magnets can be seen in the distortions of the polar jets of these two  
colliding black holes:

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/images/content/146397main_a400.jpg

They must both have fairly high internal angular momenta.

Regards,

Horace Heffner

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Subject: [Vo]:Re: Maveric gravimagnetic forces at play
Status: O
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More of the same:

http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2006/a400/index.html

And some less dramatic stuff:

http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2002/0192/

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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 15:15:38 +1000
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Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Clueless
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Terry Blanton wrote:

> W thinks we already have PHEVs obviously:
>
> http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/04/09/bush-almost-blows-himself-up/
>
> Terry
>
Right, pull the other #$%^# leg. Another attempt by Ford to sabotage 
hybrids. Why is the CEO Alan Malally/ /so stupid? Surely the hydrogen 
fill cap is locked! Why would the hydrogen fill system have any live 
conductors in it? Bush is not that stupid. If the hydrogen cap could be 
lifted it would ( or should) clearly not match the plug. Mulally is only 
showing his bias against and ignorance of both Hybrids and George W Bush.

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Apr 12 22:38:12 2007
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Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Steorn Public Demonstration
Status: O
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Terry Blanton wrote:

> . . . moved to July:
>
> http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=50211&page=1
>
> and they don't know if it will be start/stop or cyclical?!?
>
> Terry
>
Actually the launch or bust is today April 13 according to Sean in a 
later post.

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Apr 12 23:40:49 2007
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Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Steorn Public Demonstration
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Wesley Bruce wrote:

> Terry Blanton wrote:
>
>> . . . moved to July:
>>
>> http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=50211&page=1
>>
>> and they don't know if it will be start/stop or cyclical?!?
>>
>> Terry
>>
> Actually the launch or bust is today April 13 according to Sean in a 
> later post.
>
Does that mean that I'm going to be able to purchase a machine?



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Steorn Public Demonstration
Status: O
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------=_Part_1138_28145691.1176447093493
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http://www.steorn.com/forum
when talking about friday 13th april 2007 news: says:
Hi Folks,

Its been a while - just to let you know that we will be releasing the update
on the Jury process and so on on Friday April 13th.

Thanks,

Sean



On 13/04/07, thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
>
> Wesley Bruce wrote:
>
> > Terry Blanton wrote:
> >
> >> . . . moved to July:
> >>
> >> http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=50211&page=1
> >>
> >> and they don't know if it will be start/stop or cyclical?!?
> >>
> >> Terry
> >>
> > Actually the launch or bust is today April 13 according to Sean in a
> > later post.
> >
> Does that mean that I'm going to be able to purchase a machine?
>
>
>
> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! --
> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
>
>

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<a href="http://www.steorn.com/forum">http://www.steorn.com/forum</a><br>when talking about friday 13th april 2007 news: says:<br>Hi Folks,<br><br>Its been a while - just to let you know that we will be releasing the update on the Jury process and so on on Friday April 13th.
<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>Sean<br><br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 13/04/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">thomas malloy</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:temalloy@usfamily.net">temalloy@usfamily.net</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Wesley Bruce wrote:<br><br>&gt; Terry Blanton wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; . . . moved to July:<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; <a href="http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=50211&amp;page=1">http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=50211&amp;page=1
</a><br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; and they don&#39;t know if it will be start/stop or cyclical?!?<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Terry<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt; Actually the launch or bust is today April 13 according to Sean in a<br>&gt; later post.
<br>&gt;<br>Does that mean that I&#39;m going to be able to purchase a machine?<br><br><br><br>--- <a href="http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html">http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html</a> - $8.25/mo! -- <a href="http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html">
http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html</a> - $19.99/mo! ---<br><br></blockquote></div><br>

------=_Part_1138_28145691.1176447093493--

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Apr 12 23:58:22 2007
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Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Steorn Public Demonstration
Status: O
X-Status: 

thomas malloy wrote:

> Wesley Bruce wrote:
>
>> Terry Blanton wrote:
>>
>>> . . . moved to July:
>>>
>>> http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=50211&page=1
>>>
>>> and they don't know if it will be start/stop or cyclical?!?
>>>
>>> Terry
>>>
>> Actually the launch or bust is today April 13 according to Sean in a 
>> later post.
>>
> Does that mean that I'm going to be able to purchase a machine?
>
>
No that means you'll see the Jury report and blue prints by tonight or 
tomorrow. Those with the skill and magnets, that includes my brother and 
I, will be able to build and test it. If the Jury report is both 
positive and respectable then the investment and development phase 
starts. Expect some interesting video, PDF files and lots of emails 
going out to the thousands who have signed up for the report. They have 
installed a lot of server capacity to handle the load. Steorn has spent 
about 3 million to date on this project. Its a sign that they at least 
believe completely in the technology. If its a scam they are making a 
huge loss. It will take about three months to make a toy for 
demonstration and fun. Home built powerplants will be 6 to 12 months 
away. Factory production may take 18 months.  The scramble for Neodymium 
will begin Monday as the news soaks in across the web over the weekend.

>
> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- 
> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
>

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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 10:07:06 +0300
From: "Esa Ruoho" <esaruoho@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Steorn Public Demonstration
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erm.. wesley.. how do you know this?
where is the steorn forum post about this?
i thought it was just going to be an update on the jury process, not a
"final report of all juries". if it is, then grand, but somehow i doubt you
really mean what you said.
besides, with the "3 month toy", what about the SPDC? what are they doing -
according to you? somehow seems quite hard to believe that all the SPDC
members (over 250) would have finished their steorn replication already.
if you are skilled with building, why didnt you apply to the SPDC and sign
the NDA and get onto the SPDC forum and follow the lessons?

On 13/04/07, Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
> >>> . . . moved to July:
> >>> http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=50211&page=1
> >>> and they don't know if it will be start/stop or cyclical?!?
> >> Actually the launch or bust is today April 13 according to Sean in a
> later post.
> > Does that mean that I'm going to be able to purchase a machine?
> No that means you'll see the Jury report and blue prints by tonight or
> tomorrow. Those with the skill and magnets, that includes my brother and I,
> will be able to build and test it. If the Jury report is both positive and
> respectable then the investment and development phase starts. Expect some
> interesting video, PDF files and lots of emails going out to the thousands
> who have signed up for the report. They have installed a lot of server
> capacity to handle the load. Steorn has spent about 3 million to date on
> this project. Its a sign that they at least believe completely in the
> technology. If its a scam they are making a huge loss. It will take about
> three months to make a toy for demonstration and fun. Home built powerplants
> will be 6 to 12 months away. Factory production may take 18 months.  The
> scramble for Neodymium will begin Monday as the news soaks in across the web
> over the weekend.
>

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erm.. wesley.. how do you know this?<br>where is the steorn forum post abou=
t this?<br>i thought it was just going to be an update on the jury process,=
 not a &quot;final report of all juries&quot;. if it is, then grand, but so=
mehow i doubt you really mean what you said.
<br>besides, with the &quot;3 month toy&quot;, what about the SPDC? what ar=
e they doing - according to you? somehow seems quite hard to believe that a=
ll the SPDC members (over 250) would have finished their steorn replication=
 already.
<br>if you are skilled with building, why didnt you apply to the SPDC and s=
ign the NDA and get onto the SPDC forum and follow the lessons?<br><br><div=
><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 13/04/07, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Wes=
ley Bruce
</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au">wesleybruce@iinet.net.=
au</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-l=
eft: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left:=
 1ex;">
&gt;&gt;&gt; . . . moved to July:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ste=
orn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=3D50211&amp;page=3D1">http://www.st=
eorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=3D50211&amp;page=3D1</a><br>&gt;&g=
t;&gt; and they don&#39;t know if it will be start/stop or cyclical?!?
<br>&gt;&gt; Actually the launch or bust is today April 13 according to Sea=
n in a later post.<br>&gt; Does that mean that I&#39;m going to be able to =
purchase a machine?<br>No that means you&#39;ll see the Jury report and blu=
e prints by tonight or tomorrow. Those with the skill and magnets, that inc=
ludes my brother and I, will be able to build and test it. If the Jury repo=
rt is both positive and respectable then the investment and development pha=
se starts. Expect some interesting video, PDF files and lots of emails goin=
g out to the thousands who have signed up for the report. They have install=
ed a lot of server capacity to handle the load. Steorn has spent about 3 mi=
llion to date on this project. Its a sign that they at least believe comple=
tely in the technology. If its a scam they are making a huge loss. It will =
take about three months to make a toy for demonstration and fun. Home built=
 powerplants will be 6 to 12 months away. Factory production may take 18 mo=
nths.&nbsp;&nbsp;The scramble for Neodymium will begin Monday as the news s=
oaks in across the web over the weekend.
<br></blockquote></div>

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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Apr 13 00:39:02 2007
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Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Steorn Public Demonstration
Status: O
X-Status: 

Esa Ruoho wrote:

> erm.. wesley.. how do you know this?
> where is the steorn forum post about this?
> i thought it was just going to be an update on the jury process, not a 
> "final report of all juries". if it is, then grand, but somehow i 
> doubt you really mean what you said.

I've been quietly monetoring the posts on the forum. That was my reading 
of Seans post and a few comments by people that I have gurssed are 
staff. I may be wrong but the 1st quarter ends in Ireland on sunday and 
they're promissing an annoncement before them. Friday is the last 
working day before the end of the quarter.  It should not take that long 
to build and test the device.

> besides, with the "3 month toy", what about the SPDC? what are they 
> doing - according to you? somehow seems quite hard to believe that all 
> the SPDC members (over 250) would have finished their steorn 
> replication already.

True but that's not part of the main Jury process. It is an additional 
verification not tied to the first quarter date.

> if you are skilled with building, why didnt you apply to the SPDC and 
> sign the NDA and get onto the SPDC forum and follow the lessons?

I thought I had missed the cut some how for that process. I'm a 
geographer and sustainable development specialist not a mechanic, my 
brother was not available until last month. My application attempt 
bounced and I've got no NDA. It would have been nice. Steorn does have 
my Resume I believe. ;-)

PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up?

>
> On 13/04/07, *Wesley Bruce * <wesleybruce@iinet.net.au 
> <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>> wrote:
>
>     >>> . . . moved to July:
>     >>>
>     http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=50211&page=1
>     <http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=50211&page=1>
>     >>> and they don't know if it will be start/stop or cyclical?!?
>     >> Actually the launch or bust is today April 13 according to Sean
>     in a later post.
>     > Does that mean that I'm going to be able to purchase a machine?
>     No that means you'll see the Jury report and blue prints by
>     tonight or tomorrow. Those with the skill and magnets, that
>     includes my brother and I, will be able to build and test it. If
>     the Jury report is both positive and respectable then the
>     investment and development phase starts. Expect some interesting
>     video, PDF files and lots of emails going out to the thousands who
>     have signed up for the report. They have installed a lot of server
>     capacity to handle the load. Steorn has spent about 3 million to
>     date on this project. Its a sign that they at least believe
>     completely in the technology. If its a scam they are making a huge
>     loss. It will take about three months to make a toy for
>     demonstration and fun. Home built powerplants will be 6 to 12
>     months away. Factory production may take 18 months.  The scramble
>     for Neodymium will begin Monday as the news soaks in across the
>     web over the weekend.
>

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Apr 13 01:55:44 2007
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Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Steorn Public Demonstration
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On 4/13/07, Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce@iinet.net.au> wrote:

>
> PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up?


Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. (or fixed)

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<span class="gmail_quote">On 4/13/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Wesley Bruce</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au">wesleybruce@iinet.net.au</a>&gt; wrote:</span><br><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up?</blockquote><div><br>Because it&#39;s a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. (or fixed)<br> </div></div><br>

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Subject: [Vo]:Steorn Public Demonstration
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John Berry wrote:

> On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* <wesleybruce@iinet.net.au 
> <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>> wrote:
>
>
>     PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up?
>
>
> Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. (or fixed)
>
Yep. Thats what I thought.
What's the old saying about watched pots they never boils. I'm watching 
the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in Dublin so I'm a 
little early.
An "every things Ok" post would not take any time at all. Anything major 
should be later in the day. They will need time for a morning coffee, 
briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then blame or fizz 
depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the shouting match 
happens while the stock market is closed. That way they can't be accused 
of playing the market. That's just a guess but that's the accusation 
they face.

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Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Steorn Public Demonstration
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HelixMultiverse: It's Friday 13th April 2007, 08.55 but I can't see any
update yet. Anyone know where the update will appear on website (I've looked
under 'News') or at what time?

HM



Steorn: We plan to put the update up after lunch (for the video, text update
at 6pm). I will also point out that there is no 'big' news here at all, as I
stated many times over the last few months. Its a quick update on what has
happen since last August, primarily designed for those who do not spend
hours everyday on this forum! Regular forum members will see little that is
new, its pretty much all been said in here.


Suomipoika:I'm not sure I'm following. Are you going to release the detailed
technical specifications to the public as you promised or not?

Seconded. Is there going to be a text update with these specs alongside the
video update?



Steorn: Yes, this will go up later in the day, around 6 PM GMT (the video
update will go up around lunchtime).

Suomipoika:: Excellent! Thanks for the answer!
You said there's not gonna be anything new we forum members didn't already
knew. Why did you say so? Now you ARE going to release detailed technical
specs, and that's definitely new information (and BIG news) for everybody.
Did you change your mind after my question?


On 4/13/07, Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
> John Berry wrote:
>
> > On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* <wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
> > <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >     PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up?
> >
> >
> > Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. (or fixed)
> >
> Yep. Thats what I thought.
> What's the old saying about watched pots they never boils. I'm watching
> the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in Dublin so I'm a
> little early.
> An "every things Ok" post would not take any time at all. Anything major
> should be later in the day. They will need time for a morning coffee,
> briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then blame or fizz
> depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the shouting match
> happens while the stock market is closed. That way they can't be accused
> of playing the market. That's just a guess but that's the accusation
> they face.
>
>

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<blockquote><cite>HelixMultiverse: </cite>It&#39;s Friday 13th April 2007,
08.55 but I can&#39;t see any update yet. Anyone know where the update will
appear on website (I&#39;ve looked under &#39;News&#39;) or at what time?<br><br>HM</blockquote><br><br>Steorn: We
plan to put the update up after lunch (for the video, text update at 6pm). I will also point out that there
is no &#39;big&#39; news here at all, as I stated many times over the last few
months. Its a quick update on what has happen since last August,
primarily designed for those who do not spend hours everyday on this
forum! Regular forum members will see little that is new, its pretty
much all been said in here.<br><br><br><cite> </cite><cite>Suomipoika:</cite>I&#39;m not sure I&#39;m following. Are you going to release the detailed technical specifications to the public as you promised or not?<blockquote>
Seconded. Is there going to be a text update with these specs alongside the video update?</blockquote><br><br>Steorn: Yes, this will go up later in the day, around 6 PM GMT (the video update will go up around lunchtime).<br>
<br><cite> Suomipoika:</cite>: Excellent! Thanks for the answer!<br>You said there&#39;s not gonna be
anything new we forum members didn&#39;t already knew. Why did you say so?
Now you ARE going to release detailed technical specs, and that&#39;s
definitely new information (and BIG news) for everybody. Did you change
your mind after my question?<br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/13/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Wesley Bruce</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au">wesleybruce@iinet.net.au</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">John Berry wrote:<br><br>&gt; On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* &lt;<a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au">
wesleybruce@iinet.net.au</a><br>&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au">wesleybruce@iinet.net.au</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up?<br>
&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Because it&#39;s a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. (or fixed)<br>&gt;<br>Yep. Thats what I thought.<br>What&#39;s the old saying about watched pots they never boils. I&#39;m watching<br>the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in Dublin so I&#39;m a
<br>little early.<br>An &quot;every things Ok&quot; post would not take any time at all. Anything major<br>should be later in the day. They will need time for a morning coffee,<br>briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then blame or fizz
<br>depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the shouting match<br>happens while the stock market is closed. That way they can&#39;t be accused<br>of playing the market. That&#39;s just a guess but that&#39;s the accusation
<br>they face.<br><br></blockquote></div><br>

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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:39:38 +1200
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Steorn Public Demonstration
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rosco:I can see a misconception storm gathering.

By tech specs i think Sean has made it pretty clear on many occasions that
he means power generation details and nothing more. (i think)



Yep, rosco is right - see the "Sean quote reference point" thread:
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7

On 4/13/07, John Berry <aether22@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> HelixMultiverse: It's Friday 13th April 2007, 08.55 but I can't see any
> update yet. Anyone know where the update will appear on website (I've looked
> under 'News') or at what time?
>
> HM
>
>
>
> Steorn: We plan to put the update up after lunch (for the video, text
> update at 6pm). I will also point out that there is no 'big' news here at
> all, as I stated many times over the last few months. Its a quick update on
> what has happen since last August, primarily designed for those who do not
> spend hours everyday on this forum! Regular forum members will see little
> that is new, its pretty much all been said in here.
>
>
> Suomipoika:I'm not sure I'm following. Are you going to release the
> detailed technical specifications to the public as you promised or not?
>
> Seconded. Is there going to be a text update with these specs alongside
> the video update?
>
>
>
> Steorn: Yes, this will go up later in the day, around 6 PM GMT (the video
> update will go up around lunchtime).
>
> Suomipoika:: Excellent! Thanks for the answer!
> You said there's not gonna be anything new we forum members didn't already
> knew. Why did you say so? Now you ARE going to release detailed technical
> specs, and that's definitely new information (and BIG news) for everybody.
> Did you change your mind after my question?
>
>
> On 4/13/07, Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> >
> > John Berry wrote:
> >
> > > On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
> > > <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >     PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up?
> > >
> > >
> > > Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. (or fixed)
> > >
> > Yep. Thats what I thought.
> > What's the old saying about watched pots they never boils. I'm watching
> > the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in Dublin so I'm a
> > little early.
> > An "every things Ok" post would not take any time at all. Anything major
> > should be later in the day. They will need time for a morning coffee,
> > briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then blame or fizz
> > depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the shouting match
> > happens while the stock market is closed. That way they can't be accused
> > of playing the market. That's just a guess but that's the accusation
> > they face.
> >
> >
>

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<blockquote><cite> rosco:</cite>I can see a misconception storm gathering.<br><br>By
tech specs i think Sean has made it pretty clear on many occasions that
he means power generation details and nothing more. (i think)</blockquote><br><br>Yep, rosco is right - see the &quot;Sean quote reference point&quot; thread:<br><a href="http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&amp;page=2#Item_7">
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&amp;page=2#Item_7</a><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/13/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">John Berry</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:aether22@gmail.com">aether22@gmail.com
</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote><cite>HelixMultiverse: </cite>It&#39;s Friday 13th April 2007,
08.55 but I can&#39;t see any update yet. Anyone know where the update will
appear on website (I&#39;ve looked under &#39;News&#39;) or at what time?<br><br>HM</blockquote><br><br>Steorn: We
plan to put the update up after lunch (for the video, text update at 6pm). I will also point out that there
is no &#39;big&#39; news here at all, as I stated many times over the last few
months. Its a quick update on what has happen since last August,
primarily designed for those who do not spend hours everyday on this
forum! Regular forum members will see little that is new, its pretty
much all been said in here.<br><br><br><cite> </cite><cite>Suomipoika:</cite>I&#39;m not sure I&#39;m following. Are you going to release the detailed technical specifications to the public as you promised or not?<blockquote>

Seconded. Is there going to be a text update with these specs alongside the video update?</blockquote><br><br>Steorn: Yes, this will go up later in the day, around 6 PM GMT (the video update will go up around lunchtime).
<br>
<br><cite> Suomipoika:</cite>: Excellent! Thanks for the answer!<br>You said there&#39;s not gonna be
anything new we forum members didn&#39;t already knew. Why did you say so?
Now you ARE going to release detailed technical specs, and that&#39;s
definitely new information (and BIG news) for everybody. Did you change
your mind after my question?<br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/13/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Wesley Bruce</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
wesleybruce@iinet.net.au</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">John Berry wrote:<br><br>&gt; On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* &lt;<a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">

wesleybruce@iinet.net.au</a><br>&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">wesleybruce@iinet.net.au</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up?<br>
&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Because it&#39;s a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. (or fixed)<br>&gt;<br>Yep. Thats what I thought.<br>What&#39;s the old saying about watched pots they never boils. I&#39;m watching<br>the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in Dublin so I&#39;m a
<br>little early.<br>An &quot;every things Ok&quot; post would not take any time at all. Anything major<br>should be later in the day. They will need time for a morning coffee,<br>briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then blame or fizz
<br>depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the shouting match<br>happens while the stock market is closed. That way they can&#39;t be accused<br>of playing the market. That&#39;s just a guess but that&#39;s the accusation
<br>they face.<br><br></blockquote></div><br>
</blockquote></div><br>

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Subject: [Vo]:Steorn Public Demonstration
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X-Status: 

Ok that's good its still useful information. I and others need that 
data. Nice to see that its not bad news. Several sites on the web are 
expecting bigger things. Maybe I should pass this to them. Thanks I know 
what to look for and when. I have time to do a few chores. Feb to August 
is still quite a long testing schedule.

John Berry wrote:

>     rosco:I can see a misconception storm gathering.
>
>     By tech specs i think Sean has made it pretty clear on many
>     occasions that he means power generation details and nothing more.
>     (i think)
>
>
>
> Yep, rosco is right - see the "Sean quote reference point" thread:
> http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7 
> <http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7>
>
> On 4/13/07, *John Berry* <aether22@gmail.com 
> <mailto:aether22@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         HelixMultiverse: It's Friday 13th April 2007, 08.55 but I
>         can't see any update yet. Anyone know where the update will
>         appear on website (I've looked under 'News') or at what time?
>
>         HM
>
>
>
>     Steorn: We plan to put the update up after lunch (for the video,
>     text update at 6pm). I will also point out that there is no 'big'
>     news here at all, as I stated many times over the last few months.
>     Its a quick update on what has happen since last August, primarily
>     designed for those who do not spend hours everyday on this forum!
>     Regular forum members will see little that is new, its pretty much
>     all been said in here.
>
>
>     Suomipoika:I'm not sure I'm following. Are you going to release
>     the detailed technical specifications to the public as you
>     promised or not?
>
>         Seconded. Is there going to be a text update with these specs
>         alongside the video update?
>
>
>
>     Steorn: Yes, this will go up later in the day, around 6 PM GMT
>     (the video update will go up around lunchtime).
>
>     Suomipoika:: Excellent! Thanks for the answer!
>     You said there's not gonna be anything new we forum members didn't
>     already knew. Why did you say so? Now you ARE going to release
>     detailed technical specs, and that's definitely new information
>     (and BIG news) for everybody. Did you change your mind after my
>     question?
>
>
>     On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
>     <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>> wrote:
>
>         John Berry wrote:
>
>         > On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
>         <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>
>         > <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
>         <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>>> wrote:
>         >
>         >
>         >     PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up?
>         >
>         >
>         > Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed.
>         (or fixed)
>         >
>         Yep. Thats what I thought.
>         What's the old saying about watched pots they never boils. I'm
>         watching
>         the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in Dublin
>         so I'm a
>         little early.
>         An "every things Ok" post would not take any time at all.
>         Anything major
>         should be later in the day. They will need time for a morning
>         coffee,
>         briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then blame
>         or fizz
>         depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the
>         shouting match
>         happens while the stock market is closed. That way they can't
>         be accused
>         of playing the market. That's just a guess but that's the
>         accusation
>         they face.
>
>
>

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Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 00:02:09 +1200
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Steorn Public Demonstration
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Ok, there is only one question I need answered from Steorn.

I know Free Energy exists in the form they claim, I have not the slightest
doubt.
However when it comes to their device I have never heard a straight answer
to 'Does it run closed loop'

I'd ask on the forum but I can't post yet.

So maybe you could Wesley, on my behalf, simply put can Steorn or failing
that one of the witnesses give a solid answer to:

Has the loop been closed? Has it been run with no input power beyond an
initial impulse to get it started and done useful work continuously? (or run
under any other fair closed loop (no input) type conditions)


If the answer to this is a yes no Jury is needed, and if the answer to that
is 'No' a Jury with positive findings might even fail to utterly convince
me.


On 4/13/07, Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
> Ok that's good its still useful information. I and others need that
> data. Nice to see that its not bad news. Several sites on the web are
> expecting bigger things. Maybe I should pass this to them. Thanks I know
> what to look for and when. I have time to do a few chores. Feb to August
> is still quite a long testing schedule.
>
> John Berry wrote:
>
> >     rosco:I can see a misconception storm gathering.
> >
> >     By tech specs i think Sean has made it pretty clear on many
> >     occasions that he means power generation details and nothing more.
> >     (i think)
> >
> >
> >
> > Yep, rosco is right - see the "Sean quote reference point" thread:
> >
> http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7
> > <
> http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7>
> >
> > On 4/13/07, *John Berry* <aether22@gmail.com
> > <mailto:aether22@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >         HelixMultiverse: It's Friday 13th April 2007, 08.55 but I
> >         can't see any update yet. Anyone know where the update will
> >         appear on website (I've looked under 'News') or at what time?
> >
> >         HM
> >
> >
> >
> >     Steorn: We plan to put the update up after lunch (for the video,
> >     text update at 6pm). I will also point out that there is no 'big'
> >     news here at all, as I stated many times over the last few months.
> >     Its a quick update on what has happen since last August, primarily
> >     designed for those who do not spend hours everyday on this forum!
> >     Regular forum members will see little that is new, its pretty much
> >     all been said in here.
> >
> >
> >     Suomipoika:I'm not sure I'm following. Are you going to release
> >     the detailed technical specifications to the public as you
> >     promised or not?
> >
> >         Seconded. Is there going to be a text update with these specs
> >         alongside the video update?
> >
> >
> >
> >     Steorn: Yes, this will go up later in the day, around 6 PM GMT
> >     (the video update will go up around lunchtime).
> >
> >     Suomipoika:: Excellent! Thanks for the answer!
> >     You said there's not gonna be anything new we forum members didn't
> >     already knew. Why did you say so? Now you ARE going to release
> >     detailed technical specs, and that's definitely new information
> >     (and BIG news) for everybody. Did you change your mind after my
> >     question?
> >
> >
> >     On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
> >     <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>> wrote:
> >
> >         John Berry wrote:
> >
> >         > On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
> >         <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>
> >         > <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
> >         <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>>> wrote:
> >         >
> >         >
> >         >     PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up?
> >         >
> >         >
> >         > Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed.
> >         (or fixed)
> >         >
> >         Yep. Thats what I thought.
> >         What's the old saying about watched pots they never boils. I'm
> >         watching
> >         the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in Dublin
> >         so I'm a
> >         little early.
> >         An "every things Ok" post would not take any time at all.
> >         Anything major
> >         should be later in the day. They will need time for a morning
> >         coffee,
> >         briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then blame
> >         or fizz
> >         depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the
> >         shouting match
> >         happens while the stock market is closed. That way they can't
> >         be accused
> >         of playing the market. That's just a guess but that's the
> >         accusation
> >         they face.
> >
> >
> >
>
>

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Ok, there is only one question I need answered from Steorn.<br><br>I know Free Energy exists in the form they claim, I have not the slightest doubt.<br>However when it comes to their device I have never heard a straight answer to &#39;Does it run closed loop&#39;
<br><br>I&#39;d ask on the forum but I can&#39;t post yet.<br><br>So maybe you could Wesley, on my behalf, simply put can Steorn or failing that one of the witnesses give a solid answer to:<br><br>Has the loop been closed? Has it been run with no input power beyond an initial impulse to get it started and done useful work continuously? (or run under any other fair closed loop (no input) type conditions)
<br><br><br>If the answer to this is a yes no Jury is needed, and if the answer to that is &#39;No&#39; a Jury with positive findings might even fail to utterly convince me.<br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/13/07, 
<b class="gmail_sendername">Wesley Bruce</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au">wesleybruce@iinet.net.au</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Ok that&#39;s good its still useful information. I and others need that<br>data. Nice to see that its not bad news. Several sites on the web are<br>expecting bigger things. Maybe I should pass this to them. Thanks I know<br>
what to look for and when. I have time to do a few chores. Feb to August<br>is still quite a long testing schedule.<br><br>John Berry wrote:<br><br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; rosco:I can see a misconception storm gathering.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; By tech specs i think Sean has made it pretty clear on many
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; occasions that he means power generation details and nothing more.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (i think)<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Yep, rosco is right - see the &quot;Sean quote reference point&quot; thread:<br>&gt; <a href="http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&amp;page=2#Item_7">
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&amp;page=2#Item_7</a><br>&gt; &lt;<a href="http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&amp;page=2#Item_7">http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&amp;page=2#Item_7
</a>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; On 4/13/07, *John Berry* &lt;<a href="mailto:aether22@gmail.com">aether22@gmail.com</a><br>&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href="mailto:aether22@gmail.com">aether22@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HelixMultiverse: It&#39;s Friday 13th April 2007, 
08.55 but I<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; can&#39;t see any update yet. Anyone know where the update will<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; appear on website (I&#39;ve looked under &#39;News&#39;) or at what time?<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HM<br>&gt;<br>&gt;
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Steorn: We plan to put the update up after lunch (for the video,<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; text update at 6pm). I will also point out that there is no &#39;big&#39;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; news here at all, as I stated many times over the last few months.
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Its a quick update on what has happen since last August, primarily<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; designed for those who do not spend hours everyday on this forum!<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Regular forum members will see little that is new, its pretty much
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; all been said in here.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Suomipoika:I&#39;m not sure I&#39;m following. Are you going to release<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the detailed technical specifications to the public as you<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; promised or not?
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Seconded. Is there going to be a text update with these specs<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; alongside the video update?<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Steorn: Yes, this will go up later in the day, around 6 PM GMT
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (the video update will go up around lunchtime).<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Suomipoika:: Excellent! Thanks for the answer!<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You said there&#39;s not gonna be anything new we forum members didn&#39;t<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; already knew. Why did you say so? Now you ARE going to release
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; detailed technical specs, and that&#39;s definitely new information<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (and BIG news) for everybody. Did you change your mind after my<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; question?<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* &lt; 
<a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au">wesleybruce@iinet.net.au</a><br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au">wesleybruce@iinet.net.au</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; John Berry wrote:
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* &lt; <a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au">wesleybruce@iinet.net.au</a><br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au">wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; &lt;mailto:<a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au">wesleybruce@iinet.net.au</a><br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au">wesleybruce@iinet.net.au</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up?<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Because it&#39;s a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed.
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (or fixed)<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yep. Thats what I thought.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; What&#39;s the old saying about watched pots they never boils. I&#39;m<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; watching<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in Dublin
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; so I&#39;m a<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; little early.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; An &quot;every things Ok&quot; post would not take any time at all.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Anything major<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; should be later in the day. They will need time for a morning
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; coffee,<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then blame<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; or fizz<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; shouting match
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; happens while the stock market is closed. That way they can&#39;t<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; be accused<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; of playing the market. That&#39;s just a guess but that&#39;s the<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; accusation<br>
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; they face.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br><br></blockquote></div><br>

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3aaRrEIp-0
videoupdate is here
theres supposed to be text incoming at around 6pm gmt.

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<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3aaRrEIp-0">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3aaRrEIp-0</a><br>videoupdate is here<br>theres supposed to be text incoming at around 6pm gmt.<br><br>

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Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Steorn Public Demonstration
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On 4/14/07, John Berry <aether22@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ok, there is only one question I need answered from Steorn.
>
> I know Free Energy exists in the form they claim


By that I mean energy seemingly created in a simple device including
permanent magnetic motors.
I think energy can be created but don't really care if energy is created or
taken from some unseen infinite storehouse of energy, at that point it's an
issue of faith in c of e or in abundance and creation.

In my opinion energy can be created by using the aether in specific ways to
unbalance energy equations, this is permissible because the aether is not
energy but the medium in which all energy rides and energy follows the
aether's 'rules' and by manipulating the aether you can change these rules -
aether is the 'board' on which the game of energy is played - I can also
explain how manipulating the aether in various ways leads to energy
generation..

To expand on that there is no other word for thesaurus in a thesaurus, and
phonetic is not spelt phonetically.
If there are gravitons the only thing that by necessity couldn't react to
them would be gravitons.


, I have not the slightest doubt.
> However when it comes to their device I have never heard a straight answer
> to 'Does it run closed loop'
>
> I'd ask on the forum but I can't post yet.
>
> So maybe you could Wesley, on my behalf, simply put can Steorn or failing
> that one of the witnesses give a solid answer to:
>
> Has the loop been closed? Has it been run with no input power beyond an
> initial impulse to get it started and done useful work continuously? (or run
> under any other fair closed loop (no input) type conditions)
>
>
> If the answer to this is a yes no Jury is needed, and if the answer to
> that is 'No' a Jury with positive findings might even fail to utterly
> convince me.
>
>
> On 4/13/07, Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> >
> > Ok that's good its still useful information. I and others need that
> > data. Nice to see that its not bad news. Several sites on the web are
> > expecting bigger things. Maybe I should pass this to them. Thanks I know
> > what to look for and when. I have time to do a few chores. Feb to August
> > is still quite a long testing schedule.
> >
> > John Berry wrote:
> >
> > >     rosco:I can see a misconception storm gathering.
> > >
> > >     By tech specs i think Sean has made it pretty clear on many
> > >     occasions that he means power generation details and nothing more.
> > >     (i think)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yep, rosco is right - see the "Sean quote reference point" thread:
> > >
> > http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7
> > > <http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7
> > >
> > >
> > > On 4/13/07, *John Berry* <aether22@gmail.com
> > > <mailto:aether22@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > >         HelixMultiverse: It's Friday 13th April 2007, 08.55 but I
> > >         can't see any update yet. Anyone know where the update will
> > >         appear on website (I've looked under 'News') or at what time?
> > >
> > >         HM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >     Steorn: We plan to put the update up after lunch (for the video,
> > >     text update at 6pm). I will also point out that there is no 'big'
> > >     news here at all, as I stated many times over the last few months.
> >
> > >     Its a quick update on what has happen since last August, primarily
> > >     designed for those who do not spend hours everyday on this forum!
> > >     Regular forum members will see little that is new, its pretty much
> >
> > >     all been said in here.
> > >
> > >
> > >     Suomipoika:I'm not sure I'm following. Are you going to release
> > >     the detailed technical specifications to the public as you
> > >     promised or not?
> > >
> > >         Seconded. Is there going to be a text update with these specs
> > >         alongside the video update?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >     Steorn: Yes, this will go up later in the day, around 6 PM GMT
> > >     (the video update will go up around lunchtime).
> > >
> > >     Suomipoika:: Excellent! Thanks for the answer!
> > >     You said there's not gonna be anything new we forum members didn't
> > >     already knew. Why did you say so? Now you ARE going to release
> > >     detailed technical specs, and that's definitely new information
> > >     (and BIG news) for everybody. Did you change your mind after my
> > >     question?
> > >
> > >
> > >     On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
> > >     <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>> wrote:
> > >
> > >         John Berry wrote:
> > >
> > >         > On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
> > >         <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au >
> > >         > <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
> > >         <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>>> wrote:
> > >         >
> > >         >
> > >         >     PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking
> > up?
> > >         >
> > >         >
> > >         > Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed.
> > >         (or fixed)
> > >         >
> > >         Yep. Thats what I thought.
> > >         What's the old saying about watched pots they never boils. I'm
> > >         watching
> > >         the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in Dublin
> >
> > >         so I'm a
> > >         little early.
> > >         An "every things Ok" post would not take any time at all.
> > >         Anything major
> > >         should be later in the day. They will need time for a morning
> > >         coffee,
> > >         briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then blame
> > >         or fizz
> > >         depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the
> > >         shouting match
> > >         happens while the stock market is closed. That way they can't
> > >         be accused
> > >         of playing the market. That's just a guess but that's the
> > >         accusation
> > >         they face.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>

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On 4/14/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">John Berry</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:aether22@gmail.com">aether22@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class="gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Ok, there is only one question I need answered from Steorn.<br><br>I know Free Energy exists in the form they claim</blockquote><div><br>By that I mean energy seemingly created in a simple device including permanent magnetic motors.
<br>I think energy can be created but don&#39;t really care if energy is created or taken from some unseen infinite storehouse of energy, at that point it&#39;s an issue of faith in c of e or in abundance and creation.<br>
<br>In my opinion energy can be created by using the aether in specific ways to unbalance energy equations, this is permissible because the aether is not energy but the medium in which all energy rides and energy follows the aether&#39;s &#39;rules&#39; and by manipulating the aether you can change these rules - aether is the &#39;board&#39; on which the game of energy is played - I can also explain how manipulating the aether in various ways leads to energy generation..
<br><br>To expand on that there is no other word for thesaurus in a thesaurus, and phonetic is not spelt phonetically.<br>If there are gravitons the only thing that by necessity couldn&#39;t react to them would be gravitons.
<br><br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">, I have not the slightest doubt.<br>However when it comes to their device I have never heard a straight answer to &#39;Does it run closed loop&#39;
<br><br>I&#39;d ask on the forum but I can&#39;t post yet.<br><br>So maybe you could Wesley, on my behalf, simply put can Steorn or failing that one of the witnesses give a solid answer to:<br><br>Has the loop been closed? Has it been run with no input power beyond an initial impulse to get it started and done useful work continuously? (or run under any other fair closed loop (no input) type conditions)
<br><br><br>If the answer to this is a yes no Jury is needed, and if the answer to that is &#39;No&#39; a Jury with positive findings might even fail to utterly convince me.<br><br><br><div><span class="q"><span class="gmail_quote">
On 4/13/07, 
<b class="gmail_sendername">Wesley Bruce</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">wesleybruce@iinet.net.au</a>&gt; wrote:</span></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

Ok that&#39;s good its still useful information. I and others need that<br>data. Nice to see that its not bad news. Several sites on the web are<br>expecting bigger things. Maybe I should pass this to them. Thanks I know
<br>
what to look for and when. I have time to do a few chores. Feb to August<br>is still quite a long testing schedule.<span class="q"><br><br>John Berry wrote:<br><br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; rosco:I can see a misconception storm gathering.
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; By tech specs i think Sean has made it pretty clear on many
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; occasions that he means power generation details and nothing more.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (i think)<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Yep, rosco is right - see the &quot;Sean quote reference point&quot; thread:<br>&gt; <a href="http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&amp;page=2#Item_7" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">

http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&amp;page=2#Item_7</a><br>&gt; &lt;<a href="http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&amp;page=2#Item_7" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&amp;page=2#Item_7
</a>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; On 4/13/07, *John Berry* &lt;<a href="mailto:aether22@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">aether22@gmail.com</a><br></span><div><span class="e" id="q_111ead2f2894882a_4">
&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href="mailto:aether22@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">aether22@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HelixMultiverse: It&#39;s Friday 13th April 2007, 
08.55 but I<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; can&#39;t see any update yet. Anyone know where the update will<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; appear on website (I&#39;ve looked under &#39;News&#39;) or at what time?<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HM<br>&gt;<br>
&gt;
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Steorn: We plan to put the update up after lunch (for the video,<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; text update at 6pm). I will also point out that there is no &#39;big&#39;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; news here at all, as I stated many times over the last few months.
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Its a quick update on what has happen since last August, primarily<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; designed for those who do not spend hours everyday on this forum!<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Regular forum members will see little that is new, its pretty much
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; all been said in here.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Suomipoika:I&#39;m not sure I&#39;m following. Are you going to release<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the detailed technical specifications to the public as you<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; promised or not?
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Seconded. Is there going to be a text update with these specs<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; alongside the video update?<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Steorn: Yes, this will go up later in the day, around 6 PM GMT
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (the video update will go up around lunchtime).<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Suomipoika:: Excellent! Thanks for the answer!<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You said there&#39;s not gonna be anything new we forum members didn&#39;t<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; already knew. Why did you say so? Now you ARE going to release
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; detailed technical specs, and that&#39;s definitely new information<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (and BIG news) for everybody. Did you change your mind after my<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; question?<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* &lt; 
<a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">wesleybruce@iinet.net.au</a><br></span></div><div><span class="e" id="q_111ead2f2894882a_5">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;mailto:
<a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">wesleybruce@iinet.net.au</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; John Berry wrote:
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* &lt; <a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">wesleybruce@iinet.net.au</a><br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;mailto:
<a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; &lt;mailto:<a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">wesleybruce@iinet.net.au</a><br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;mailto:<a href="mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
wesleybruce@iinet.net.au</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up?<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Because it&#39;s a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed.
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (or fixed)<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yep. Thats what I thought.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; What&#39;s the old saying about watched pots they never boils. I&#39;m<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; watching<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in Dublin
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; so I&#39;m a<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; little early.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; An &quot;every things Ok&quot; post would not take any time at all.<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Anything major<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; should be later in the day. They will need time for a morning
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; coffee,<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then blame<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; or fizz<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; shouting match
<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; happens while the stock market is closed. That way they can&#39;t<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; be accused<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; of playing the market. That&#39;s just a guess but that&#39;s the<br>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; accusation<br>

&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; they face.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br><br></span></div></blockquote></div><br>
</blockquote></div><br>

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Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Clueless
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Wesley Bruce wrote:

>>W thinks we already have PHEVs obviously:
>>
>>http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/04/09/bush-almost-blows-himself-up/
>>
>>Terry
>Right, pull the other #$%^# leg. Another attempt by Ford to sabotage hybrids.

This was a joke, circulated by Ford Motor Co. President and CEO Alan 
Mulally. It was never intended to be taken seriously, but in the 
Internet age these things sometimes get out of hand. See:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070411/AUTO01/704110406/1013/BIZ04

"Mulally's Bush tale ignites blog mania

WASHINGTON -- In the age of YouTube, the Drudge Report and the 
blogosphere, even a story told for laughs can spin out of control. . . ."

- Jed

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From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
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Subject: TEST, is [Vo]: tag working NOW?!!!
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My fault.   I think I got it this time.

(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  425-222-5066    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:02:00 -0400
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: TEST, is [Vo]: tag working NOW?!!!
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Apparently not.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Apr 13 11:05:07 2007
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Subject: Re: TEST, is [Vo]: tag working NOW?!!!
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this is actually the first vo post ive gotten in months that DIDNT
have the tag.

On 4/13/07, William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com> wrote:
>
> My fault.   I think I got it this time.
>
> (((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
> Seattle, WA  425-222-5066    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
>
>


-- 
That which yields isn't always weak.

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Subject: [Vo]:Garbage from George Will
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In my experience trying to talk to people about cold fusion and 
energy I have discovered that many journalists, politicians and other 
leading members of society are innumerate and scientifically 
illiterate. This should come as no surprise to the readers here, but 
sometimes extent of this general ignorance is jarring.

Attached is an article by George Will from the Washington Post about 
global warming that includes an outrageous comparison between the 
Prius and a Hummer. It is appalling that a major newspaper columnist 
such as Will gets away with publishing outlandish mistakes, numbers 
pulled out of a hat, and crazy notions such as the idea that a 
typical Prius owner will throw away the car before it wears out.

As we saw in January 2006 with the Kevles article, the Washington 
Post demands no rigor or accountability. Columnists write any damn 
thing that pops into their minds, and no follow-up correction or 
justification is published.

My mother often said that people are no more ignorant now than they 
used to be. Back in 1920 many important people and newspaper editors 
had no clue what electricity is, or that the earth orbits the sun. 
She said there were plenty of people in New York City who did not 
know where Europe is, or for that matter where the Statue of Liberty 
is. That is probably true, but it did not matter as much back then. 
The stakes were lower. Technology was not as powerful and there were 
fewer people. We were not on the verge of inducing global warming. We 
did not have thousands of thermonuclear weapons. Nowadays, ignorance 
causes more harm.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Washington Post

Fuzzy Climate Math

By George F. Will
Thursday, April 12, 2007; A27

In a campaign without peacetime precedent, the 
media-entertainment-environmental complex is warning about global 
warming. Never, other than during the two world wars, has there been 
such a concerted effort by opinion-forming institutions to 
indoctrinate Americans, 83 percent of whom now call global warming a 
" <http://www.yale.edu/envirocenter/environmentalpoll.htm>serious 
problem." Indoctrination is supposed to be a predicate for action 
commensurate with professions of seriousness.

For example, Democrats could demand that the president send the Kyoto 
Protocol to the Senate so they can embrace it. In 1997, the Senate 
<http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=105&session=1&vote=00205>voted95 
to 0 in opposition to any agreement that would, like the protocol, 
require significant reduction of greenhouse gas emissions in America 
and some other developed nations but that would involve no "specific 
scheduled commitments" for 129 "developing" countries, including the 
second-, fourth-, 10th-, 11th-, 13th- and 15th-largest economies 
(China, India, Brazil, South Korea, Mexico and Indonesia). Forty-two 
of the senators serving in 1997 are gone. Let's find out if the new 
senators disagree with the 1997 vote.

Do they also disagree with Bjorn Lomborg, author of "The Skeptical 
Environmentalist"? He says: Compliance with Kyoto would reduce global 
warming by an amount too small to measure. But the cost of compliance 
just to the United States would be higher than the cost of providing 
the entire world with clean drinking water and sanitation, which 
would prevent 2 million deaths (from diseases such as infant 
diarrhea) a year and prevent half a billion people from becoming 
seriously ill each year.

Nature designed us as carnivores, but what does nature know about 
nature? Meat has been designated a menace. Among the 51 exhortations 
in Time magazine's " 
<http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/environment/article/0,28804,1602354_1603074,00.html>Global 
Warming Survival Guide" (April 9), 
<http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/environment/article/0,28804,1602354_1603074_1603171,00.html>No. 
22 says a BMW is less responsible than a Big Mac for "climate 
change," that conveniently imprecise name for our peril. This is 
because the world meat industry produces 18 percent of the world's 
greenhouse gas emissions, more than transportation produces. Nitrous 
oxide in manure (warming effect: 296 times greater than that of 
carbon) and methane from animal flatulence (23 times greater) mean 
that "a 16-oz. T-bone is like a Hummer on a plate."

Ben & Jerry's ice cream might be even more sinister: A gallon of it 
requires electricity-guzzling refrigeration and four gallons of milk 
produced by cows that simultaneously produce eight gallons of manure 
and flatulence with eight gallons of methane. The cows do this while 
consuming lots of grain and hay, which are cultivated by using 
tractor fuel, chemical fertilizers, herbicides and insecticides, and 
transported by fuel-consuming trains and trucks.

Newsweek says most food travels at least 1,200 miles to get to 
Americans' plates, so buying local food will save fuel. Do not order 
halibut in Omaha.

Speaking of Hummers, perhaps it is environmentally responsible to buy 
one and squash a Prius with it. The Prius hybrid is, of course, 
fuel-efficient. There are, however, environmental costs to mining and 
smelting (in Canada) 1,000 tons a year of zinc for the 
battery-powered second motor, and the shipping of the zinc 10,000 
miles -- trailing a cloud of carbon dioxide -- to Wales for refining 
and then to China for turning it into the component that is then sent 
to a battery factory in Japan.

Opinions differ as to whether acid rain from the Canadian mining and 
smelting operation is killing vegetation that once absorbed carbon 
dioxide. But a report from 
<http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy>CNW Marketing Research 
("Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles from Concept to 
Disposal") concludes that in "dollars per lifetime mile," a Prius 
(expected life: 109,000 miles) costs $3.25, compared with $1.95 for a 
Hummer H3 (expected life: 207,000 miles).

The CNW report states that a hybrid makes economic and environmental 
sense for a purchaser living in the Los Angeles basin, where fuel 
costs are high and smog is worrisome. But environmental costs of the 
hybrid are exported from the basin.

We are urged to "think globally and act locally," as Gov. Arnold 
Schwarzenegger has done with proposals to reduce California's carbon 
dioxide emissions 25 percent by 2020. If California improbably 
achieves this, at a cost not yet computed, it will have reduced 
global greenhouse gas emissions 0.3 percent. The question is:

Suppose the costs over a decade of trying to achieve a local goal are 
significant. And suppose the positive impact on the globe's 
temperature is insignificant -- and much less than, say, the negative 
impact of one year's increase in the number of vehicles in one 
country (e.g., India). If so, are people who recommend such things 
thinking globally but not clearly?

<mailto:georgewill@washpost.com>georgewill@washpost.com

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

An astute comment by a reader, which was trashed by the Washington 
Post's strange e-mail system:


I read the methodology for the paper that this article cited, 
available here here click the DUST PDF VERSION.pdf link: 
(http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy)??? Many extremely 
dubious assumptions are buried within this document, amid frequent 
spelling and grammar errors e.g., for simplicities sake we have 
condensed the data. For example, the document notes that calculations 
were performed using the real-world fuel economy that consumers 
report, rather than EPA numbers. According to these numbers, on page 
72 of the report, the Toyota Prius gets 29.6 miles per gallon mpg, 
while the Dodge Ram Hemi gets 27.6 mpg. The respective 2005 EPA 
rankings for both vehicles combined average city and highway mpg are 
55 and 19, assuming the most efficient of the Ram Hemi trim lines. 
How can this be? The report alludes to adjust[ments] for real-world 
and current technologies. Which technologies? What adjustments? The 
report does not say. On page 94, a chart of predicted fuel economy 
deterioration has this footnote: We've weighted the averages to 
balance to the high side to eliminate those vehicles with the lowest 
maintenance and technological advances in engine management. That 
sentence makes no sense. The report assumes that hybrids will be 
discarded well before they wear out, because their buyers are 
techies, who will soon move on to the next gadget. The report adjusts 
numbers for the Prius because the current Prius will become obsolete 
sooner. What were the adjustments? How, exactly, were the assumptions 
about discarding a Prius early made? The report doesn't tell us. 
Despite a barrage of figures, the authors never explain their 
methodology. They tell us some of the variables they consider, e.g., 
driving habits, likelihood of frequent maintenance, and so on, but 
other crucial metrics are subsumed under the rubric of literally 
scores of other information. We never get an explanation of how the 
numbers are combined and weighted, even though weighting is clearly a 
major part of the report. Sources are never cited, and indeed, the 
report takes pride its confidential, real-world data gathering that 
cannot be attributed for fear of incriminating the suppliers of the 
data on page 8, they state that they will not release either the 
names of the individuals or the companies from which this information 
was obtained. The report claims to include metrics as detailed as the 
cost of bringing workers to a plant were included in the final 
number, but it never provides those numbers or tells us how they were 
obtaind and used in the calculations. No peer review is mentioned, 
and on page 278 the authors disdain other, peer-reviewed studies. As 
an alternative to the CNW report, consider the rankings published by 
the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy ACEEE. Their 
methodology is clearly explained here: In these rankings, which 
include manufacturing impact, emissions, and materials impact, the 
Prius ranks second overall. . . .

By david_lobron | Apr 13, 2007 1:55:46 PM

--=====================_14423765==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<body>
In my experience trying to talk to people about cold fusion and energy I
have discovered that many journalists, politicians and other leading
members of society are innumerate and scientifically illiterate. This
should come as no surprise to the readers here, but sometimes extent of
this general ignorance is jarring. <br><br>
Attached is an article by George Will from the Washington Post about
global warming that includes an outrageous comparison between the Prius
and a Hummer. It is appalling that a major newspaper columnist such as
Will gets away with publishing outlandish mistakes, numbers pulled out of
a hat, and crazy notions such as the idea that a typical Prius owner will
throw away the car before it wears out.<br><br>
As we saw in January 2006 with the Kevles article, the Washington Post
demands no rigor or accountability. Columnists write any damn thing that
pops into their minds, and no follow-up correction or justification is
published.<br><br>
My mother often said that people are no more ignorant now than they used
to be. Back in 1920 many important people and newspaper editors had no
clue what electricity is, or that the earth orbits the sun. She said
there were plenty of people in New York City who did not know where
Europe is, or for that matter where the Statue of Liberty is. That is
probably true, but it did not matter as much back then. The stakes were
lower. Technology was not as powerful and there were fewer people. We
were not on the verge of inducing global warming. We did not have
thousands of thermonuclear weapons. Nowadays, ignorance causes more
harm.<br><br>
- Jed<br><br>
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br><br>
Washington Post<br><br>
<font size=3D5><b>Fuzzy Climate Math<br><br>
</b></font><font size=3D2>By George F. Will<br>
Thursday, April 12, 2007; A27<br><br>
</font>In a campaign without peacetime precedent, the
media-entertainment-environmental complex is warning about global
warming. Never, other than during the two world wars, has there been such
a concerted effort by opinion-forming institutions to indoctrinate
Americans, 83 percent of whom now call global warming a &quot;
<a href=3D"http://www.yale.edu/envirocenter/environmentalpoll.htm">serious
problem</a>.&quot; Indoctrination is supposed to be a predicate for
action commensurate with professions of seriousness.<br><br>
For example, Democrats could demand that the president send the Kyoto
Protocol to the Senate so they can embrace it. In 1997, the Senate
<a href=3D"http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_v=
ote_cfm.cfm?congress=3D105&amp;session=3D1&amp;vote=3D00205">
voted</a>95 to 0 in opposition to any agreement that would, like the
protocol, require significant reduction of greenhouse gas emissions in
America and some other developed nations but that would involve no
&quot;specific scheduled commitments&quot; for 129 &quot;developing&quot;
countries, including the second-, fourth-, 10th-, 11th-, 13th- and
15th-largest economies (China, India, Brazil, South Korea, Mexico and
Indonesia). Forty-two of the senators serving in 1997 are gone. Let's
find out if the new senators disagree with the 1997 vote.<br><br>
Do they also disagree with Bjorn Lomborg, author of &quot;The Skeptical
Environmentalist&quot;? He says: Compliance with Kyoto would reduce
global warming by an amount too small to measure. But the cost of
compliance <i>just to the United States</i> would be higher than the cost
of providing the entire world with clean drinking water and sanitation,
which would prevent 2 million deaths (from diseases such as infant
diarrhea) a year and prevent half a billion people from becoming
seriously ill each year.<br><br>
Nature designed us as carnivores, but what does nature know about nature?
Meat has been designated a menace. Among the 51 exhortations in Time
magazine's &quot;
<a href=3D"http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/environment/article/0,2880=
4,1602354_1603074,00.html">
Global Warming Survival Guide</a>&quot; (April 9),
<a href=3D"http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/environment/article/0,2880=
4,1602354_1603074_1603171,00.html">
No. 22</a> says a BMW is less responsible than a Big Mac for
&quot;climate change,&quot; that conveniently imprecise name for our
peril. This is because the world meat industry produces 18 percent of the
world's greenhouse gas emissions, more than transportation produces.
Nitrous oxide in manure (warming effect: 296 times greater than that of
carbon) and methane from animal flatulence (23 times greater) mean that
&quot;a 16-oz. T-bone is like a Hummer on a plate.&quot;<br><br>
Ben &amp; Jerry's ice cream might be even more sinister: A gallon of it
requires electricity-guzzling refrigeration and four gallons of milk
produced by cows that simultaneously produce eight gallons of manure and
flatulence with eight gallons of methane. The cows do this while
consuming lots of grain and hay, which are cultivated by using tractor
fuel, chemical fertilizers, herbicides and insecticides, and transported
by fuel-consuming trains and trucks.<br><br>
Newsweek says most food travels at least 1,200 miles to get to Americans'
plates, so buying local food will save fuel. Do not order halibut in
Omaha.<br><br>
Speaking of Hummers, perhaps it is environmentally responsible to buy one
and squash a Prius with it. The Prius hybrid is, of course,
fuel-efficient. There are, however, environmental costs to mining and
smelting (in Canada) 1,000 tons a year of zinc for the battery-powered
second motor, and the shipping of the zinc 10,000 miles -- trailing a
cloud of carbon dioxide -- to Wales for refining and then to China for
turning it into the component that is then sent to a battery factory in
Japan.<br><br>
Opinions differ as to whether acid rain from the Canadian mining and
smelting operation is killing vegetation that once absorbed carbon
dioxide. But a report from
<a href=3D"http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy">CNW Marketing
Research</a> (&quot;Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles from
Concept to Disposal&quot;) concludes that in &quot;dollars per lifetime
mile,&quot; a Prius (expected life: 109,000 miles) costs $3.25, compared
with $1.95 for a Hummer H3 (expected life: 207,000 miles).<br><br>
The CNW report states that a hybrid makes economic and environmental
sense for a purchaser living in the Los Angeles basin, where fuel costs
are high and smog is worrisome. But environmental costs of the hybrid are
exported from the basin.<br><br>
We are urged to &quot;think globally and act locally,&quot; as Gov.
Arnold Schwarzenegger has done with proposals to reduce California's
carbon dioxide emissions 25 percent by 2020. If California improbably
achieves this, at a cost not yet computed, it will have reduced global
greenhouse gas emissions 0.3 percent. The question is:<br><br>
Suppose the costs over a decade of trying to achieve a local goal are
significant. And suppose the positive impact on the globe's temperature
is insignificant -- and much less than, say, the negative impact of one
year's increase in the number of vehicles in one country (e.g., India).
If so, are people who recommend such things thinking globally but not
clearly?<br><br>
<i><a href=3D"mailto:georgewill@washpost.com">georgewill@washpost.com</a>
<br><br>
</i>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -<br><br>
An astute comment by a reader, which was trashed by the Washington Post's
strange e-mail system:<br><br>
<br>
I read the methodology for the paper that this article cited, available
here here click the DUST PDF VERSION.pdf link:
(<a href=3D"http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy" eudora=3D"autourl"=
>
http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy</a>)??? Many extremely
dubious assumptions are buried within this document, amid frequent
spelling and grammar errors e.g., for simplicities sake we have condensed
the data. For example, the document notes that calculations were
performed using the real-world fuel economy that consumers report, rather
than EPA numbers. According to these numbers, on page 72 of the report,
the Toyota Prius gets 29.6 miles per gallon mpg, while the Dodge Ram Hemi
gets 27.6 mpg. The respective 2005 EPA rankings for both vehicles
combined average city and highway mpg are 55 and 19, assuming the most
efficient of the Ram Hemi trim lines. How can this be? The report alludes
to adjust[ments] for real-world and current technologies. Which
technologies? What adjustments? The report does not say. On page 94, a
chart of predicted fuel economy deterioration has this footnote: We've
weighted the averages to balance to the high side to eliminate those
vehicles with the lowest maintenance and technological advances in engine
management. That sentence makes no sense. The report assumes that hybrids
will be discarded well before they wear out, because their buyers are
techies, who will soon move on to the next gadget. The report adjusts
numbers for the Prius because the current Prius will become obsolete
sooner. What were the adjustments? How, exactly, were the assumptions
about discarding a Prius early made? The report doesn't tell us. Despite
a barrage of figures, the authors never explain their methodology. They
tell us some of the variables they consider, e.g., driving habits,
likelihood of frequent maintenance, and so on, but other crucial metrics
are subsumed under the rubric of literally scores of other information.
We never get an explanation of how the numbers are combined and weighted,
even though weighting is clearly a major part of the report. Sources are
never cited, and indeed, the report takes pride its confidential,
real-world data gathering that cannot be attributed for fear of
incriminating the suppliers of the data on page 8, they state that they
will not release either the names of the individuals or the companies
from which this information was obtained. The report claims to include
metrics as detailed as the cost of bringing workers to a plant were
included in the final number, but it never provides those numbers or
tells us how they were obtaind and used in the calculations. No peer
review is mentioned, and on page 278 the authors disdain other,
peer-reviewed studies. As an alternative to the CNW report, consider the
rankings published by the American Council for an Energy-Efficient
Economy ACEEE. Their methodology is clearly explained here: In these
rankings, which include manufacturing impact, emissions, and materials
impact, the Prius ranks second overall. . . .<br><br>
By david_lobron | Apr 13, 2007 1:55:46 PM<br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_14423765==.ALT--

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Subject: [Vo]:Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday April 13, 2007
Status: RO
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-----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki

>From: What's New <whatsnew@BOBPARK.ORG>
>Sent: Apr 13, 2007 12:53 PM
To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday April 13, 2007

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 13 Apr 07   Washington, DC

1. STEM CELLS: PRESIDENT BUSH VOWS TO PROTECT ONE-CELLED PEOPLE. 
The Stem Cell Research Enhancement Act passed the Senate 63-34,
but President Bush promises a veto.  He said the use of embryonic
stem cells in research "crosses a moral line."  In case you're
wondering where this "moral line" is drawn, WN has looked into
it.  George W. Bush and other conservative theologians believe a
"soul" is assigned to the fertilized egg at the instant of
conception.  That makes it a person, even though it's not counted
in the census.  In-vitro fertilization makes a lot more of these
one-celled people than it needs; leftovers are stacked in the
freezer until it starts filling up.  President Bush cares deeply
about these helpless one-celled people and wants to ensure they
are properly flushed down the disposal rather than exploited by
godless scientists interested only the reduction of suffering.  

2. DIABETES: STEM CELL THERAPY IS USED TO TREAT TYPE 1 DIABETES. 
In yesterday's Wash Post, Sen. Orin Hatch (R-UT), a long-time
proponent of stem cell research, is quoted as saying, "Our
country is in grave danger of falling behind in one of the most
promising fields of biomedical research."  We already have.  In a
very preliminary study, researchers at the University of Sao
Paolo in Brazil found that a remarkable 14 out of 15 type 1
diabetes sufferers were freed of dependence on insulin injections
after treatment with stem cells drawn from their own blood.  

3. SHUTTLE: SETTING A NEW AMERICAN RECORD FOR FLAG-POLE SITTING.
By delaying the launch of the hail-dinged shuttle Atlantis until
June, NASA has given Astronaut Sunita Williams a shot at the
coveted American record for continuous time in space.  The record
will be set by Michael Lopez-Alegria next week when he returns to
Earth on the Russian Soyuz.  The delay didn't bother Williams,
who told reporters, "I have lots to do up here."  Maybe she could
run another marathon.  But how do you run in zero-g anyway?

4. "NOR ANY DROP TO DRINK": SIGNS OF WATER ON EXTRA-SOLAR PLANET.
There's not likely to be a beach, and its 150 light-years away,
but Hubble measurements of a star named HD 209458b have been
interpreted as evidence of water in the atmosphere of a planet
that passes in front of the "Sun-like" star every 3.6 days.  The
real significance is the possibility of someday being able to
study the atmospheres of extra-solar planets for signs of life.

5. GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE: COOLING DOWN THE IPCC WARMING REPORT. 
The assessment of the impact of global warming issued by the IPCC
last Friday, grim though it was, had actually been toned down in
the final negotiations in Brussels at the insistence of the U.S.
and China.  According to the NY Times, Bush's top environmental
advisor told reporters that the report "reinforces" the policies
of the administration.  Without population control measures,
however, no other policies will help in the long run.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
University of Maryland, but they should be.
---
Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org
What's New is moving to a different listserver and our
subscription process has changed. To change your subscription
status please visit this link:
http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Apr 13 14:28:32 2007
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:28:18 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: TEST, is [Vo]: tag working NOW?!!!
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Just delete the fucking thing, Bill.  We lived forever without it.

Terry

(I'll give you fifty dollars (US) to restore the forum the way it was.)

PS  (tell me how to pay you.)

On 4/13/07, William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com> wrote:
>
> My fault.   I think I got it this time.
>
> (((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
> Seattle, WA  425-222-5066    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
>
>

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To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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seriously, i use gmail.  all the posts are marked vortex for me anyways!

On 4/13/07, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just delete the fucking thing, Bill.  We lived forever without it.
>
> Terry
>
> (I'll give you fifty dollars (US) to restore the forum the way it was.)
>
> PS  (tell me how to pay you.)
>
> On 4/13/07, William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com> wrote:
> >
> > My fault.   I think I got it this time.
> >
> > (((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
> > William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> > billb at amasci com                         http://amasci.com
> > EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
> > Seattle, WA  425-222-5066    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
> >
> >
>
>


-- 
That which yields isn't always weak.

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Apr 13 14:50:56 2007
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 17:50:27 -0400
To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
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Subject: [Vo]:New edition of book
Status: O
X-Status: 

I uploaded a new edition of my book "Cold Fusion and the Future":

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf

This has mainly minor changes, such as:

Some corrections to embarrassing mistakes, such as on p. 18. I had an 
average American automobile going 80 km on 97 MJ of energy. The 
correct answer -- I hope! -- is 27 km. I thank Wu-Shou Zhang for 
pointing out this error. I think I mixed up gallons and liters. You 
can't be too careful.

A revised evaluation of the cost of a massive desalination project, 
based on the cost of the new Ashkelon desalination plant in Israel, 
which is the world's biggest and cheapest per liter of water. The 
Ashkelon plant is not a co-generator, unlike the Saudi plants, so you 
have to add in the cost of the power supplies. That is, you have to 
add in the cost of electric generators for RO, or for the heat source 
with MSF. But with cold fusion these costs will be negligible so I 
think this is a good basis to make a rough estimate of a megaproject 
cost. This drops the estimate from $8.4 trillion down to $3.9 
trillion. That's still too much. It is roughly twice the eventual 
cost of the Iraq war, assuming the war ends when Bush leaves office. 
As I said, people will only spend that kind of money on war. (Or as 
Charles Dickens pointed out, we are always more willing to build 
prisons than schools.) But the project would be a lot cheaper with 
cold fusion and I think there is a good chance it will be done 
sometime in the next few hundred years.

Additional material from the upcoming Japanese edition, which I hope 
will be done & uploaded in a few more weeks. For example, I found a 
graph -- Fig. 16.1, p. 131 -- that actually proves you can see Mt. 
Fuji from downtown Tokyo more often these days. It isn't just my 
imagination. More proof that we can make progress if only we try.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Apr 13 18:44:24 2007
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Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:42:30 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca>
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Subject: [Vo]:Breathable Oxygen
Status: O
X-Status: 




When hydrogen is burned in air, the oxygen in the air combines with hydrogen
to form H2O. Will breathable oxygen decline if we burn too much hydrogen?
I guess this would never be a problem if all the hydrogen burned comes from
the decomposition of H2O into H2 and O2.

But seriously, if everything was powered by burning hydrogen would the
proportion of oxygen in the air gradually decline?

For that matter, has burning hydrocarbons already decreased oxygen
levels?

Just wondering...
Harry

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Apr 13 19:32:01 2007
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:New edition of book
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 21:32:12 -0500
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Jed, Will you be printing any copies and if so give us a price for packages 
of 10.
Richard
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 4:50 PM
Subject: [Vo]:New edition of book


>I uploaded a new edition of my book "Cold Fusion and the Future":
>
> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf
>
> This has mainly minor changes, such as:
>
> Some corrections to embarrassing mistakes, such as on p. 18. I had an 
> average American automobile going 80 km on 97 MJ of energy. The correct 
> answer -- I hope! -- is 27 km. I thank Wu-Shou Zhang for pointing out this 
> error. I think I mixed up gallons and liters. You can't be too careful.
>
> A revised evaluation of the cost of a massive desalination project, based 
> on the cost of the new Ashkelon desalination plant in Israel, which is the 
> world's biggest and cheapest per liter of water. The Ashkelon plant is not 
> a co-generator, unlike the Saudi plants, so you have to add in the cost of 
> the power supplies. That is, you have to add in the cost of electric 
> generators for RO, or for the heat source with MSF. But with cold fusion 
> these costs will be negligible so I think this is a good basis to make a 
> rough estimate of a megaproject cost. This drops the estimate from $8.4 
> trillion down to $3.9 trillion. That's still too much. It is roughly twice 
> the eventual cost of the Iraq war, assuming the war ends when Bush leaves 
> office. As I said, people will only spend that kind of money on war. (Or 
> as Charles Dickens pointed out, we are always more willing to build 
> prisons than schools.) But the project would be a lot cheaper with cold 
> fusion and I think there is a good chance it will be done sometime in the 
> next few hundred years.
>
> Additional material from the upcoming Japanese edition, which I hope will 
> be done & uploaded in a few more weeks. For example, I found a graph --  
> Fig. 16.1, p. 131 -- that actually proves you can see Mt. Fuji from 
> downtown Tokyo more often these days. It isn't just my imagination. More 
> proof that we can make progress if only we try.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 269.4.0/759 - Release Date: 4/12/2007 
> 7:58 PM
>
> 

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Apr 13 21:05:25 2007
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Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 14:05:08 +1000
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Subject: [Vo]:Clueless
Status: RO
X-Status: 

That makes more sense. Thanks Jed.
Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Wesley Bruce wrote:
>
>>> W thinks we already have PHEVs obviously:
>>>
>>> http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/04/09/bush-almost-blows-himself-up/
>>>
>>> Terry
>>
>> Right, pull the other #$%^# leg. Another attempt by Ford to sabotage 
>> hybrids.
>
>
> This was a joke, circulated by Ford Motor Co. President and CEO Alan 
> Mulally. It was never intended to be taken seriously, but in the 
> Internet age these things sometimes get out of hand. See:
>
> http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070411/AUTO01/704110406/1013/BIZ04 
>
>
> "Mulally's Bush tale ignites blog mania
>
> WASHINGTON -- In the age of YouTube, the Drudge Report and the 
> blogosphere, even a story told for laughs can spin out of control. . . ."
>
> - Jed
>

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Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 00:40:12 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push
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Status: O
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Jones Beene wrote:

> Harry Veeder wrote:
>=20
>> the push theory has some serious theoretical difficulties
> to overcome. If gravity is a push why don't the planets spiral
> into the sun because whatever is doing the pushing would also
> have a drag effect on the planets.
>=20
>=20
> I am not well-versed in the details, but do have 'cut-and-paste'
> functionality ;-) ... but the superficial answer is that the drag effect
> in one vector is balanced by a boost in the other IF the system lacks an
> *arrow of time* WOW (am I mis-stating that conclusion)!
>=20
> Are we essentially in a "timeless" orbit?

That would be kind of ironic, since classical mechanics and quantum
mechanics already depend on time symmetric laws of motion.

> Here is the first paragraph from the Ibison paper, which Terry mentions,
> and Xavier has his own explanation, which seems a bit less provocative:
>=20
> "This document presents some results that provide support for the
> existence of time-symmetric electromagnetic interactions involving equal
> positive combinations of advanced and retarded fields. According to
> common experience however, electromagnetic interactions are exclusively
> retarded. Retardation establishes an electromagnetic arrow of time,
> which, coincidentally, agrees with the thermodynamic arrow of time =AD the
> direction of increasing entropy. Since these two could be interrelated,
> a conservative application of a time-symmetric theory with no danger of
> conflict with observation should be confined to systems lacking any
> arrow of time =AD thermodynamic or electromagnetic." END of Ibison quote
>=20
> WOW. Those are some heavy duty implications, no? ... or else, this
> proves the point as stated at the start: "I am not well-versed in the
> details"
>=20
> ...yet
>=20
> Jones
>=20

Harry




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Subject: [Vo]:Steorn Public Demonstration
Status: O
X-Status: 

OK done on the forum and I suggested a way to close the loop on the 
kinetica toy that we've seen in you tube.
Lets see if they can clarify a little.


John Berry wrote:

> Ok, there is only one question I need answered from Steorn.
>
> I know Free Energy exists in the form they claim, I have not the 
> slightest doubt.
> However when it comes to their device I have never heard a straight 
> answer to 'Does it run closed loop'
>
> I'd ask on the forum but I can't post yet.
>
> So maybe you could Wesley, on my behalf, simply put can Steorn or 
> failing that one of the witnesses give a solid answer to:
>
> Has the loop been closed? Has it been run with no input power beyond 
> an initial impulse to get it started and done useful work 
> continuously? (or run under any other fair closed loop (no input) type 
> conditions)
>
>
> If the answer to this is a yes no Jury is needed, and if the answer to 
> that is 'No' a Jury with positive findings might even fail to utterly 
> convince me.
>
>
> On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* <wesleybruce@iinet.net.au 
> <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>> wrote:
>
>     Ok that's good its still useful information. I and others need that
>     data. Nice to see that its not bad news. Several sites on the web are
>     expecting bigger things. Maybe I should pass this to them. Thanks
>     I know
>     what to look for and when. I have time to do a few chores. Feb to
>     August
>     is still quite a long testing schedule.
>
>     John Berry wrote:
>
>     >     rosco:I can see a misconception storm gathering.
>     >
>     >     By tech specs i think Sean has made it pretty clear on many
>     >     occasions that he means power generation details and nothing
>     more.
>     >     (i think)
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > Yep, rosco is right - see the "Sean quote reference point" thread:
>     >
>     http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7
>     <http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7>
>     >
>     <http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7
>     <http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=40661&page=2#Item_7>>
>     >
>     > On 4/13/07, *John Berry* <aether22@gmail.com
>     <mailto:aether22@gmail.com>
>     > <mailto:aether22@gmail.com <mailto:aether22@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>     >
>     >         HelixMultiverse: It's Friday 13th April 2007, 08.55 but I
>     >         can't see any update yet. Anyone know where the update will
>     >         appear on website (I've looked under 'News') or at what
>     time?
>     >
>     >         HM
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >     Steorn: We plan to put the update up after lunch (for the video,
>     >     text update at 6pm). I will also point out that there is no
>     'big'
>     >     news here at all, as I stated many times over the last few
>     months.
>     >     Its a quick update on what has happen since last August,
>     primarily
>     >     designed for those who do not spend hours everyday on this
>     forum!
>     >     Regular forum members will see little that is new, its
>     pretty much
>     >     all been said in here.
>     >
>     >
>     >     Suomipoika:I'm not sure I'm following. Are you going to release
>     >     the detailed technical specifications to the public as you
>     >     promised or not?
>     >
>     >         Seconded. Is there going to be a text update with these
>     specs
>     >         alongside the video update?
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >     Steorn: Yes, this will go up later in the day, around 6 PM GMT
>     >     (the video update will go up around lunchtime).
>     >
>     >     Suomipoika:: Excellent! Thanks for the answer!
>     >     You said there's not gonna be anything new we forum members
>     didn't
>     >     already knew. Why did you say so? Now you ARE going to release
>     >     detailed technical specs, and that's definitely new information
>     >     (and BIG news) for everybody. Did you change your mind after my
>     >     question?
>     >
>     >
>     >     On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
>     <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>
>     >     <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
>     <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>>> wrote:
>     >
>     >         John Berry wrote:
>     >
>     >         > On 4/13/07, *Wesley Bruce* < wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
>     <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>
>     >         <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
>     <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>>
>     >         > <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
>     <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>
>     >         <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au
>     <mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au>>>> wrote:
>     >         >
>     >         >
>     >         >     PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes
>     stacking up?
>     >         >
>     >         >
>     >         > Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed.
>     >         (or fixed)
>     >         >
>     >         Yep. Thats what I thought.
>     >         What's the old saying about watched pots they never
>     boils. I'm
>     >         watching
>     >         the Steorn website for any action but its only 10 am in
>     Dublin
>     >         so I'm a
>     >         little early.
>     >         An "every things Ok" post would not take any time at all.
>     >         Anything major
>     >         should be later in the day. They will need time for a
>     morning
>     >         coffee,
>     >         briefing and preparation, checking the server etc, then
>     blame
>     >         or fizz
>     >         depending on the situation. A launch on Friday means the
>     >         shouting match
>     >         happens while the stock market is closed. That way they
>     can't
>     >         be accused
>     >         of playing the market. That's just a guess but that's the
>     >         accusation
>     >         they face.
>     >
>     >
>     >
>
>

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Subject: [Vo]:Steorn Public Demonstration
Status: O
X-Status: 

Esa Ruoho wrote:

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3aaRrEIp-0
> videoupdate is here
> theres supposed to be text incoming at around 6pm gmt.
>
Yes got that useful data but not much I need the get an NDA from them 
and find out some harder numbers.
The video shows me something Sean is a real believer. His body language 
and tone indicated a level of earnestness but not any thing that 
indicated a lie.
Looking at the idea that its a stock market scam but can't see any 
evidence of the kind of trading that would indicate a scam. No plays on 
the Neodymium markets indicated either.

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Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:18:31 +1000
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:Breathable Oxygen
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Harry Veeder wrote:

>
>When hydrogen is burned in air, the oxygen in the air combines with hydrogen
>to form H2O. Will breathable oxygen decline if we burn too much hydrogen?
>I guess this would never be a problem if all the hydrogen burned comes from
>the decomposition of H2O into H2 and O2.
>
>But seriously, if everything was powered by burning hydrogen would the
>proportion of oxygen in the air gradually decline?
>
>For that matter, has burning hydrocarbons already decreased oxygen
>levels?
>
>Just wondering...
>Harry
>
>  
>
Nice question. I believe the answer is no because plants simply make 
more oxygen to replace what is used up. Water is cracked in the 
photosyntheic process so both water and CO2 is recycled. Also carbonic 
acid in rain reacts with some rocks to release oxygen and break down the 
rock. That's why some rocks turn rapidly to soil when unearthed. Organic 
acids also play a large part but oxygen was used up making these acids, 
so there's no net gain. While inorganic oxygen production is far 
exceeded by photosynthesis it does exist. There is also geological up 
take of oxygen in some minerals that are not oxidized when they come to 
the surface. They then rust absorbing oxygen. Some iron meteorites 
absorb a lot of oxygen as they burn up, high speed rusting. Chondritc 
meteorites actually burn they are hydrocarbon rich. There are also 
significant natural hydrogen releases with some kinds of volcanoes. The 
gas cycles on this planet are very interesting and quite complex.

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Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 05:22:15 -0400
From: "john herman" <hermajohn@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Vo]:MIZEWELL V2007 #214
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Dear Vo,

     Miz  Well:

      Mize Well  say so......

     From1970 to1980 ...We mizwell  SAY:

      Using Ba TiO and Str  Ba Tio ...as a photocatalyst .... using  light
an a mixture of the previous... 80  percents  quantum  water can  be broken
to oxygen and hydrogen
......and guess what    ?? what is are the absolute amount ???HMMM???

NOW:  NB:


all  you arm chair  theory.... math dooodesanddoode ettes ....

        Please let us know

...............  80 percents   ""quantum [[theory]]  ""

        How much  sun  ==== how much area   === how much

  H2 and    how much  O2  ???

          HMMM
???

           Or is this to tough for you to figure out????


           HMMM???

             AND::::::''

        If electric current [[and  volts]]   how  much O and  H  would you
need to get
THE SAME  ..O2 and  H2  ????  Hmmm??

          I bet 50 cents NO ONE will even  TRY to respond to vortex!!!

             Ohhhh!   .... a glove has been tossed into the ring.....

             I challenge ...................no one will even respond
.......'

        Flame.... maybe ,,,, actual REAL world ..not f....cking ...
possible....

         the arm chair ///  chickens ...... are just that.....

         REAL math... real data.....

      Ha Ha HHHAAAHHHAAAHHHAAA ...............

        NFP   Not Freakibg  Possiblew   HHAAAHHAAA

       BBGB         Ha Ha Ha

nn

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<div><br>Dear Vo,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Miz&nbsp; Well:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mize Well&nbsp; say so......</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; From1970 to1980 ...We mizwell&nbsp; SAY:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Using Ba TiO and Str&nbsp; Ba Tio ...as a photocatalyst .... using&nbsp; light an a mixture of the previous... 80&nbsp; percents&nbsp; quantum&nbsp; water can&nbsp; be broken to oxygen and hydrogen</div>
<div>......and guess what&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ?? what is are the absolute amount ???HMMM???</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>NOW:&nbsp; NB:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>all&nbsp; you arm chair&nbsp; theory.... math dooodesanddoode ettes ....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Please let us know</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>...............&nbsp; 80 percents&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;&quot;quantum [[theory]]&nbsp; &quot;&quot;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; How much&nbsp; sun&nbsp; ==== how much area&nbsp;&nbsp; === how much</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp; H2 and&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; how much&nbsp; O2&nbsp; ???</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HMMM</div>
<div>???</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Or is this to tough for you to figure out????&nbsp; </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HMMM???</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; AND::::::&#39;&#39;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If electric current [[and&nbsp; volts]]&nbsp;&nbsp; how&nbsp; much O and&nbsp; H&nbsp; would you need to get</div>
<div>THE SAME&nbsp; ..O2 and&nbsp; H2&nbsp; ????&nbsp; Hmmm??</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I bet 50 cents NO ONE will even&nbsp; TRY to respond to vortex!!!</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ohhhh!&nbsp;&nbsp; .... a glove has been tossed into the ring.....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I challenge ...................no one will even respond&nbsp; .......&#39;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Flame.... maybe ,,,, actual REAL world ..not f....cking ... possible....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the arm chair ///&nbsp; chickens ...... are just&nbsp;that.....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; REAL math... real data.....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ha Ha HHHAAAHHHAAAHHHAAA ...............</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NFP&nbsp;&nbsp; Not Freakibg&nbsp; Possiblew&nbsp;&nbsp; HHAAAHHAAA</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BBGB&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ha Ha Ha&nbsp;&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>nn<br>&nbsp;</div>

------=_Part_12045_33462120.1176542535819--

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Apr 14 09:45:56 2007
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Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 12:45:48 -0400
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:New edition of book
In-Reply-To: <002501c77e3d$1bab3b60$c905a8c0@xptower>
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R.C.Macaulay wrote:

>Jed, Will you be printing any copies and if so give us a price for 
>packages of 10.

I do not plan to print any copies. You can print as many as you like at Kinkos.

This edition is only a little different from the previous one, as I said.

- Jed

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Breathable Oxygen
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 07:24:51 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <ukg223pnedad2hshubscolpn31050paqep@4ax.com>
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In reply to  Wesley Bruce's message of Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:18:31 +1000:
Hi,
[snip]
>Harry Veeder wrote:
>
>>
>>When hydrogen is burned in air, the oxygen in the air combines with =
hydrogen
>>to form H2O. Will breathable oxygen decline if we burn too much =
hydrogen?
>>I guess this would never be a problem if all the hydrogen burned comes =
from
>>the decomposition of H2O into H2 and O2.
>>
>>But seriously, if everything was powered by burning hydrogen would the
>>proportion of oxygen in the air gradually decline?

I have previously calculated (and posted), that if we continue to use =
energy at
the current rate, and combustion of hydrogen to produce water were our =
only
source, and plants didn't return any oxygen to the atmosphere, then it =
would
take 44000 years to use up all the oxygen in the atmosphere.

>>
>>For that matter, has burning hydrocarbons already decreased oxygen
>>levels?
[snip]
>Nice question. I believe the answer is no because plants simply make=20
>more oxygen to replace what is used up. Water is cracked in the=20
>photosyntheic process so both water and CO2 is recycled.=20

Correct, however since the CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing, it would =
appear
that the plants can't keep up.

>Also carbonic=20
>acid in rain reacts with some rocks to release oxygen and break down the=
=20
>rock.

Perhaps you could give an example of an acid/base reaction producing =
oxygen?

> That's why some rocks turn rapidly to soil when unearthed.=20

You must have a very long term view of life. ;)
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation,
Cooperation (communism) provides the means.

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Apr 14 17:05:04 2007
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From: Horace Heffner <hheffner@mtaonline.net>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravitational Penumbrae
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On Apr 7, 2007, at 3:15 AM, David Thomson wrote:


>
> I find several ideas in your theory to be heading in the right  
> direction,
> such as the identification of "gravitational charge" as separate from
> electrostatic charge.  However, it is unclear to me what dimensions
> gravitational charge has in your theory.

This question has interesting ramifications with regard to  
dimensional analysis.  Physical quantities can no longer be defined  
over MLTQ.  M, inertial mass, is a derived unit.  At the most  
fundamental level, reality must be defined, dimensional analysis  
defined, over the field of complex numbers, LT(a Q + b Q_g), where  
the value of real a and b are determined by particle type(s), and Q  
and Q_u are units of Coulomb and gravitational charge.

Regards,

Horace Heffner

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Apr 14 20:12:54 2007
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Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 22:28:28 -0400
From: Standing Bear <rockcastle@lakesideone.net>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push
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On Saturday 14 April 2007 01:40, Harry Veeder wrote:
> Jones Beene wrote:
> > Harry Veeder wrote:
> >> the push theory has some serious theoretical difficulties
> >
> > to overcome. If gravity is a push why don't the planets spiral
> > into the sun because whatever is doing the pushing would also
> > have a drag effect on the planets.
> >
> >
> > I am not well-versed in the details, but do have 'cut-and-paste'
> > functionality ;-) ... but the superficial answer is that the drag effect
> > in one vector is balanced by a boost in the other IF the system lacks an
> > *arrow of time* WOW (am I mis-stating that conclusion)!
> >
> > Are we essentially in a "timeless" orbit?
>
> That would be kind of ironic, since classical mechanics and quantum
> mechanics already depend on time symmetric laws of motion.
>
> > Here is the first paragraph from the Ibison paper, which Terry mentions,
> > and Xavier has his own explanation, which seems a bit less provocative:
> >
> > "This document presents some results that provide support for the
> > existence of time-symmetric electromagnetic interactions involving equal
> > positive combinations of advanced and retarded fields. According to
> > common experience however, electromagnetic interactions are exclusively
> > retarded. Retardation establishes an electromagnetic arrow of time,
> > which, coincidentally, agrees with the thermodynamic arrow of time =AD =
the
> > direction of increasing entropy. Since these two could be interrelated,
> > a conservative application of a time-symmetric theory with no danger of
> > conflict with observation should be confined to systems lacking any
> > arrow of time =AD thermodynamic or electromagnetic." END of Ibison quote
> >
> > WOW. Those are some heavy duty implications, no? ... or else, this
> > proves the point as stated at the start: "I am not well-versed in the
> > details"
> >
> > ...yet
> >
> > Jones
>
> Harry

Just a thought:   maybe they are a vector cross product of each other...

Standing Bear

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Subject: [Vo]:OT- the 22nd Law of Unintended Consequences
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Ever wonder why everything that the USA touches or attempts to do in a 
particular region, seemingly tends to backfire in the worst sort of way? 
Is it some kind of Crusader's curse?

Do not adjust your (sub)set... The Law of Unintended Consequences is
more than a version of Murphy's law, or even "la loi d`emmerdement
maximum" which is the more insightful Gallic version of Murphy's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequence

Unintended consequences are often the result of laws or imposed
conditions which result in an outcome that is not at all anticipated by
the genius-politicians, Generals, "social planners," or elected 
religious bigots who dreamed it up to accommodate some illogical belief 
structure. Their dogma chasing my karma?

Wiki mentions as an example the Treaty of Versailles, which imposed
harsh conditions on Germany following WWI, leading some to opine that
World War II might not have occurred without the 'unintended
consequence' of that Treaty. But that view overlooks the overriding
importance of the Great Depression. Things are never so simple as
historians want them to be, and this L.U.C. is not to be confused with a 
true law anyway - catch-22 takes care of that !

The state of Israel is another example of spoils-of-war gone berserk - 
in today's context of finding the roots of terrorism. Makes me wish for 
a hasty return to "isolationism." Elitism and Isolationism may not be PC 
these days, but they would appear to be entirely logical responses - in 
the eyes of a more advanced visitor from another planet.

The "law" part of L.U.C. is that all well-intentioned human schemes have 
at least one unintended consequence. In other words, each cause has more 
than the one obvious effect, including negative or even reversed 
effects, which cannot be easily foreseen. The idea dates to the Scottish 
Enlightenment - Scots being notoriously cynical anyway.

Unintended consequences can be classed into roughly three types:

1) A positive unexpected benefit (serendipity) which is rare in 
politics; but curiously is often closer to the norm in the R&D 
laboratory. Probably why researchers innately are aware of this situation

2) Usually the L.U.C. is merely an unending succession of mild 
annoyances and nagging obstinate problems... kinda like M$ Windows <g>.

A substantial minority of humans, sometimes a majority, abhor any kind 
of 'change' and fight it to the bitter end - even when they know they 
are better served by the change in the long run. "Enforcement" becomes 
necessary. This is the genesis of a "catch-22" circularity.

3) A negative perverse effect, which is the opposite result of what is
intended -- which is most often the case of the best-laid plans of mice
and mentchen in the political arena...

... since in 3) the slightly contrarian position of 2) above - becomes 
the majority view - i.e. the Fall-wellian (im)moral majority gets into 
power or is denied power; then - in the extreme situation these zealots 
are willing to strap on explosives and blow up their own kin, rather 
than to submit to any kind of outside "reform". Democracy may be a 
desirable goal in the West, but most Iraqis would welcome a return of 
Sadaam, or so it seems.

Dramatic LUC scenarios (especially in art and cinema) often focus on the 
third situation of 'perverse results.' There is always cynical humor 
there. This dramatic situation often arises because a special-interest 
policy requires a disincentive (enforcement mechanism), and that is what 
causes reactions contrary to what was desired... i.e. a 'bureaucracy' 
arises to enforce the change. The Catch-22 is the general symptom of 
bureaucratic operation at all levels, and the natural illogic of an 
imposed "no-win situation". In the fabulous eponymous novel, "Catch-22" 
  the idiom refers to a military rule which constantly changes (i.e. 
number of missions) serving to engender a mirrored insanity.

All of this is a preamble to say that the upcoming surprise attack on 
Iran, likely to occur sometime before the next election, will assuredly 
have unintended consequences - unintended by even the geniuses in the 
Pentagon.... Has it not occurred to them that WE have now become the 
real international terrorists?

The cynical observer of current events, might imagine that there was an 
implied admission by the British - through their low-key response to the 
recent hostage situation - that the enemy probably has a 'suitcase' 
nuke. OTOH - Moslem extremists would prefer to use it on a more hated 
target, perhaps Tel Aviv or lower Manhattan.

A non-suspecting private Yacht sailing into NYC is a possibility. A good 
choice from the "send-a-massage" POV would be one owned by Richard 
Branson (no doubt named 'Virgin Atlantic").

Anyway, please leave me to my own samsaric cynicism and delusional 
nightmares. Maybe this episode will result in a screenplay - but the 
Dramatic threat above - seems to have been pretty well anticipated for 
years, going back to 007.

Speaking of screenplays, why does the 'human predicament' seem to be so 
obviously "scripted" for the Law of Unintended Consequences, and/or the 
Catch-22 ?

ID is not without its own lust for humor.

Jones











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Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2007 14:51:02 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT- the 22nd Law of Unintended Consequences
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On 4/15/07, Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:

> Speaking of screenplays, why does the 'human predicament' seem to be so
> obviously "scripted" for the Law of Unintended Consequences, and/or the
> Catch-22 ?

You *have* read William Bramley's _The Gods of Eden_, n'est-ce pas?

Terry

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> You *have* read William Bramley's _The Gods of Eden_, n'est-ce pas?

> Terry

Hmmm....maybe, but do not recall it ... am heading to the library just 
now anyway, so its on my list.

According to this review-- it is an interesting thesis - especially if 
more-than-one, shall we say: 'competing interests' has been 'lurking in 
the shadows of history for centuries ?

My stepfather was an intelligent man, and devout -- but he refused to 
believe that the Jehovah and the Allah could be the same. Maybe they are 
simply different 'mainframes' so to speak.... Wonder which one reports 
to the AC Clarke obelisk <g> ?


BTW ... "W" may have read Bramley (or more likely his speech writer):

http://www.serendipity.li/eden.html

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On 4/15/07, Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:

> My stepfather was an intelligent man, and devout -- but he refused to
> believe that the Jehovah and the Allah could be the same. Maybe they are
> simply different 'mainframes' so to speak.... Wonder which one reports
> to the AC Clarke obelisk <g> ?

Smart man.  I equate neither Jehovah nor Yahweh nor Allah.  I'll take
Krishna.  :-)

> BTW ... "W" may have read Bramley (or more likely his speech writer):
>
> http://www.serendipity.li/eden.html

As a Bonesman, he *must* to be in the know.

Terry

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Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 00:48:05 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push
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I happen to think gravity is more like a rush rather than like
a push or a pull.

Harry

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From: Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Breathable Oxygen
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Wesley Bruce's message of Sat, 14 Apr 2007 15:18:31 +1000:
> Hi,
> [snip]
>> Harry Veeder wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> When hydrogen is burned in air, the oxygen in the air combines with hydrogen
>>> to form H2O. Will breathable oxygen decline if we burn too much hydrogen?
>>> I guess this would never be a problem if all the hydrogen burned comes from
>>> the decomposition of H2O into H2 and O2.
>>> 
>>> But seriously, if everything was powered by burning hydrogen would the
>>> proportion of oxygen in the air gradually decline?
> 
> I have previously calculated (and posted), that if we continue to use energy
> at
> the current rate, and combustion of hydrogen to produce water were our only
> source, and plants didn't return any oxygen to the atmosphere, then it would
> take 44000 years to use up all the oxygen in the atmosphere.
> 


ok, so I won't invest in oxygen futures.
;-)
Harry

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Wesley Bruce wrote:

> Harry Veeder wrote:
> 
>> 
>> When hydrogen is burned in air, the oxygen in the air combines with hydrogen
>> to form H2O. Will breathable oxygen decline if we burn too much hydrogen?
>> I guess this would never be a problem if all the hydrogen burned comes from
>> the decomposition of H2O into H2 and O2.
>> 
>> But seriously, if everything was powered by burning hydrogen would the
>> proportion of oxygen in the air gradually decline?
>> 
>> For that matter, has burning hydrocarbons already decreased oxygen
>> levels?
>> 
>> Just wondering...
>> Harry
>> 
>> 
>> 
> Nice question. I believe the answer is no because plants simply make
> more oxygen to replace what is used up. Water is cracked in the
> photosyntheic process so both water and CO2 is recycled. Also carbonic
> acid in rain reacts with some rocks to release oxygen and break down the
> rock. That's why some rocks turn rapidly to soil when unearthed. Organic
> acids also play a large part but oxygen was used up making these acids,
> so there's no net gain. While inorganic oxygen production is far
> exceeded by photosynthesis it does exist. There is also geological up
> take of oxygen in some minerals that are not oxidized when they come to
> the surface. They then rust absorbing oxygen. Some iron meteorites
> absorb a lot of oxygen as they burn up, high speed rusting. Chondritc
> meteorites actually burn they are hydrocarbon rich. There are also
> significant natural hydrogen releases with some kinds of volcanoes. The
> gas cycles on this planet are very interesting and quite complex.

So the 'picture' is quite complex.

Harry
> 

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Jones Beene wrote:

> Ever wonder why everything that the USA touches or attempts to do in a 
> particular region, seemingly tends to backfire in the worst sort of 
> way? Is it some kind of Crusader's curse?

How about, it's prophetically ordained?


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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Subject: [Vo]:gravity modification
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Last night's interviewee on C to C A M  was David Sereda,  
http://www.fromheretoandromeda.com/ . He started the interview by 
talking about element 115, upsadaisyum. It would seem to me that if you 
could manage to acquire any quantity of that stuff, you'd better get 
some lead underwear too. Then he started in about there being 8 or 9 
fundamental forces, that's the first I've heard about that. Then he 
started in on gravity modification. He said that if you take two high 
powered magnets, hold the like poles together, it falls slower than a 
comparable object. Then he started in on nuclear powered gravity 
canceling craft. By this time I'm thinking that I haven't encountered 
this much horse manure since I visited the horse barn at the state fair. 
Then I visited his website



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr 16 04:02:26 2007
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Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:02:22 +1000
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Unintended or honourable attempt. --[very OT]--
There are times in history when Generals and politicians must attempt 
the impossible just to prove its impossible. The Dieppe raid in WW2 
comes to mind. People were demanding action and something had to be done 
even if it cost thousands of lives. It did but it proved the point and 
resulted in the long term Quadruple strategy of:

   1. Hold England and Egypt while using the size of the British Empire
      to balance the Axis.
   2. Wear the Germans down in battlefields of your choosing, North
      Africa and Russia.
   3. Keep the Russians fighting. Stalin threatened to negotiate a
      separate treaty. Hence Dieppe.
   4. Call in Americans. Which took too long.

Iraq was the threat. A real danger. Saddam, his sons and his party were 
killing people in the worst possible way.

    * Saddam was seeking WMD. Iran was seen as a greater threat in the
      1970's so America under Carter was selling. After the Halabja
      poison gas attack Reagan cut support. Europe and Russia continued
      to supply. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wmd_iraq
    * Yes some of Saddams people were ripping the WMD program off for
      their own wealth. Swimming pools and playstations were bought or
      built with diverted WMD money it seems. :-D
    * In the last days of the first gulf war orders to use the WMD [gas]
      or destroy it was given. Those orders were quickly acted upon.
    * The orders were then contradicted when the US forces ran out of
      gas south of Basra. Are you going to tell the Dictator you had
      just burned his precious poison gas? The officers responsible
      filled the barrels with other stuff and tried to hide their action.
    * Trucks moved tons of stuff to Syria in November just before the
      alliance of the willing attacked. Was that WMD?
    * The tapes of Saddams cabinet meetings indicates that HE thought
      that he had a lot of WMD somewhere.
    * Radio intercepts indicated that the Iraqi officers thought; 'I may
      not have gas but the general either side does.' Radio calls were
      heard  For Gods sake use the gas. followed by the reply I
      thought you had the Gas, @$*%#$ Staff cars were seen racing away
      from the lines minutes later.
    * We used Moabs to obliterate the last line of defence around
      Baghdad. A Bomb that size can destroy a lot of chemical weapons
      and there is a good chance that the remaining chem. rounds were
      being kept close given the problem in the first gulf war. Moabs
      dont leave records or witnesses.

Given all that Im surprised we found what we found which was some 
documentation on WMD and a few scattered cashes of chem. rounds.

Because the WMD could not be proven the Iraqi dissidents Iraqi 
opposition group <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_opposition_group> 
and Ahmed Chalabi <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Chalabi> , the 
major intelligence sources, were rejected as the ideal people to take 
over and run an interim government. Their advice to disarm the Iraqi 
army and put it to work rebuilding while they worked out who could be 
trusted was ingnored. We ended up with a shai religious dominated 
assembly and unemployed troops signing up with al-Qaeda or the Mahdi army.

It was Ahmed Chalabi who thought the Iraqis would welcome the Americans 
and for a few weeks he was correct but with the Iraqi opposition group 
side lined the USA did not know how to vet intelligence officers or how 
to screen volunteers; interpreters, police recruits, etc. Miss handling 
those Iraqis that volunteered to help the Americans has cost them 
dearly. Note Australia has had very few casualties and we handle the 
Iraqis working with us differently. Im an Aussy if you did not know. ;-)

Yes Chalabi is up on Fraud charges in Jordan but you cant run a 
government in exile with open books, you must conceal all transactions 
and if you can steal from the enemy; Go for it. We did in WW2. British 
Intelligence stole millions of diamonds from Antwerp as it fell to the 
Germans. The French resistance and others did equivalent frauds in 
occupied Europe.

There was a time when the victor wrote the history. Today we live in an 
age where the vanquished continue to wage a propaganda war after defeat.

Was it all doomed to fail? Perhaps, some have argued that democracy and 
Islam are incompatible. Arguably an attempt had to be made.

Pulling out now just as we are learning how to beat the enemy would be 
disastrous. Are we ready for 5 million refugees, all of those that 
trusted us and now face death at the hands of whoever rises to the top. 
Are we ready for a war with Turkey and Iran as Kurdistan becomes a 
nation state? Arbil, capital of the Kurdistan Regional Government is the 
only place in Iraq you can walk free without fear of bombs or 
kidnappings. A Sunni-stan would be a haven for Al-Qaeda, the Shia 
provinces would in effect become a militant Iranian puppet state. 
Christians would be massacred every where but in Kurdish territory, 
there the churches are growing ten times bigger.

International Law does not really allow conquers to partition countries. 
It has been done and it does work. The UN has a set of rules banning it 
and another outlining how to do it!?! We seem settle for the messy 
process of ethic cleansing.

I dont have a plan B. Neither does the US congress or anyone else I can 
find.

I do know if Cold fusion, Steorn or some super combination of renewable 
energy technologies gets us off the Oil addiction, there will be a 
bigger mess in the middle-east but at least they will quickly go from 
fighting with the best weapons money can buy to facing us with swords, 
muskets and camels.

Jones Beene wrote:

> Ever wonder why everything that the USA touches or attempts to do in a 
> particular region, seemingly tends to backfire in the worst sort of 
> way? Is it some kind of Crusader's curse?
>
> Do not adjust your (sub)set... The Law of Unintended Consequences is
> more than a version of Murphy's law, or even "la loi d`emmerdement
> maximum" which is the more insightful Gallic version of Murphy's.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequence
>
> Unintended consequences are often the result of laws or imposed
> conditions which result in an outcome that is not at all anticipated by
> the genius-politicians, Generals, "social planners," or elected 
> religious bigots who dreamed it up to accommodate some illogical 
> belief structure. Their dogma chasing my karma?
>
> snip snippity snip
> Jones
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr 16 05:58:12 2007
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT- the 22nd Law of Unintended Consequences
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Gosh !, Golly !, Gee !,  Wesley, are you and Jones telling me the world 
ain't run on the level? Who would have thunk it?

Richard 

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Subject: [Vo]:Larsen and Windom in the Chicago Tribune
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This is rather strange. See:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0704140065apr16,0,1831279.story?coll=chi-business-hed

Article begins:

INSIDE TECHNOLOGY
Nuclear reactions may produce phones' power

By Jon Van
Published April 16, 2007

For several years a Chicago entrepreneur has labored quietly building 
a company to create an alternative to batteries for powering cell 
phones and other small gadgets.

The company, Lattice Energy LLC, deliberately kept a low profile 
because its core technology, first called cold fusion 18 years ago, 
has long been ridiculed by mainstream scientists. Lewis Larsen, 
Lattice's founder, didn't want his enterprise tainted by the empty 
promises of unlimited cheap energy surrounding cold fusion. . . .

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr 16 06:58:15 2007
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:Larsen and Windom in the Chicago Tribune
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I should explain this is strange partly because the same reporter 
wrote this story recently:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0703300070mar30,1,1977.story?ctrack=3&cset=true

Article begins:

Loyal group chases cold-fusion dream
Once touted as source of unlimited energy, cold fusion generates 
little interest today

By Jon Van
Tribune staff reporter
Published March 30, 2007

Unlimited energy brewed in a bottle sparked a worldwide sensation 
nearly 18 years ago. Promises that cold fusion would power the 
planet, however, were shot down in little more than a month.

On Thursday, researchers who continue to believe in cold fusion drew 
fewer than a dozen spectators to Chicago for the national meeting of 
the American Chemical Society.

Still, the dream believers remain undeterred. . . .

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Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 07:06:00 -0700
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Subject: [Vo]:Enabling the Letts-Craven effect?
Status: O
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Affordable semiconductor lasers have come a long way in recent years 
both in output and efficiency.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUcWqgbn7fA

Soon -- this product will be banned or severely restricted, since any 
teenager can buy one with dad's MasterCard. Neighborhood cats beware!

In may ways, these lasers are as dangerous than a loaded gun now; and in 
a few years ??? especially since the rate of increase per unit of cost 
seems to be exceeding Moore's law.

Letts used a 30 milliwatt laser (.03 watts). This one is 1.7 watts, 
almost 60 times more powerful.


Of course, there is no indication that the Letts-Creavens effect can be 
"super-sized" (the All-American solution for every problem <g>).

However, wouldn't you love to be the first to try this?

If the effect were somehow to be the same ratio at higher power -- i.e. 
a gain of thirty times the laser input power, then the cell should be 
outputting 50 watts. Whoa.

Jones

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr 16 09:33:40 2007
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Yes, isn't it?

At 06:58 AM 4/16/2007, you wrote:
>I should explain this is strange partly because the same reporter wrote 
>this story recently:
>
>http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0703300070mar30,1,1977.story?ctrack=3&cset=true

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Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 15:21:05 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Naaa, the earth sucks.

On 4/16/07, Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>
> I happen to think gravity is more like a rush rather than like
> a push or a pull.
>
> Harry
>
>

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Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:48:18 +0300
From: "Esa Ruoho" <esaruoho@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Water vortex footage
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anyone had any luck hunting down a di gital version of the p=F6pel report?

(P=F6pel, Franz Rapport  Berich =FCber die Voruntersuchnungen mit Wendelroh=
ren
mit verschniedener Wandform International Report, Institut f=FCr
Gesundheitstechnik, Institute of Technology in Stuttgart, 1952.

surely any university dealing with vortical flow mechanics (or
self-organizing flow technology) could benefit from replicating and
proving/disproving this phenomenon.

On 23/03/07, Esa Ruoho <esaruoho@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 23/03/07, thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
> >
> > >>Some of the footage was shot down the street at our U of M. I'm Just
> > watching that NOVA program gave me a lot of ideas for >>building more w=
ater
> > vortex generators.  I was particularly impressed with the implosion of =
the
> > tiny bubbles, which caused a water >>hammer effect.  It amazes me that =
air
> > bubbles can be both suddenly created and suddenly collapsed like that.
> > I've considered going to that lab and talking to the professors. They
> > clearly have the ability to generate powerful vortexes in water. Do you=
 have
> > some ideas for experiments that you'd like to try?
> >
>
> it would be amazing to find out what kind of results you get when applyin=
g
> a sonic frequency to the water during the process of creating a vortex.
> ...if there is a way of measuring what happens to the sonic frequency the
> water is conducting, when the water is forced into a vortex.
>
> also if they could find a way of going through the Prof. P=F6pel Report a=
nd
> replicating those experiments using their technology to verify whether a
> vortical movement of water results in negative friction.
>
> (P=F6pel, Franz Rapport  Berich =FCber die Voruntersuchnungen mit Wendelr=
ohren
> mit verschniedener Wandform International Report, Institut f=FCr
> Gesundheitstechnik, Institute of Technology in Stuttgart, 1952.
>

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anyone had any luck hunting down a di gital version of the p=F6pel report?<=
br><br>(<span id=3D"st" name=3D"st" class=3D"st">P=F6pel</span>, Franz=20
<span style=3D"font-style: italic;">Rapport&nbsp;</span> <span style=3D"fon=
t-style: italic;">Berich =FCber die Voruntersuchnungen mit Wendelrohren mit=
 verschniedener Wandform=20
</span>International Report, Institut f=FCr Gesundheitstechnik, Institute o=
f Technology in Stuttgart, 1952. <br><br>surely any university dealing with=
 vortical flow mechanics (or self-organizing flow technology) could benefit=
 from replicating and proving/disproving this phenomenon.
<br><br>On 23/03/07, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Esa Ruoho</b> &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:esaruoho@gmail.com">esaruoho@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"bo=
rder-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding=
-left: 1ex;">
<span class=3D"q">On 23/03/07, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">thomas malloy<=
/b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:temalloy@usfamily.net" target=3D"_blank" onclick=
=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">temalloy@usfamily.net</a>=
&gt; wrote:
</span><div><span class=3D"q"><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);=
 margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
&gt;&gt;Some of the footage was shot down the street at our U of M. I&#39;m=
 Just watching that NOVA program gave me a lot of ideas for &gt;&gt;buildin=
g more water vortex generators.&nbsp;&nbsp;I was particularly impressed wit=
h the implosion of the tiny bubbles, which caused a water &gt;&gt;hammer ef=
fect.&nbsp;&nbsp;It amazes me that air bubbles can be both suddenly created=
 and suddenly collapsed like that.
<br>I&#39;ve considered going to that lab and talking to the professors. Th=
ey clearly have the ability to generate powerful vortexes in water. Do you =
have some ideas for experiments that you&#39;d like to try?<br></blockquote=
>
</span>
</div><br>it would be amazing to find out what kind of results you get when=
 applying a sonic frequency to the water during the process of creating a v=
ortex. ...if there is a way of measuring what happens to the sonic frequenc=
y the water is conducting, when the water is forced into a vortex.
<br><br>also if they could find a way of going through the Prof. <span id=
=3D"st" name=3D"st" class=3D"st">P=F6pel</span> Report and replicating thos=
e experiments using their technology to verify whether a vortical movement =
of water results in negative friction.
<br><br>(<span id=3D"st" name=3D"st" class=3D"st">P=F6pel</span>, Franz=20
<span style=3D"font-style: italic;">Rapport&nbsp;</span> <span style=3D"fon=
t-style: italic;">Berich =FCber die Voruntersuchnungen mit Wendelrohren mit=
 verschniedener Wandform=20
</span>International Report, Institut f=FCr Gesundheitstechnik, Institute o=
f Technology in Stuttgart, 1952. <br></blockquote></div><br>

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Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 23:50:14 +0300
From: "Esa Ruoho" <esaruoho@gmail.com>
To: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Water vortex footage
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yes, this is the  basic principles of sympathetic vibratory physics  lecture
of dale pond - where he expounds on john keely, cavitation, waterhammer
effect, implosion, and the  resonance/SVP principles of  what exactly
happened with acoustic cavitation + resonance based disassociation  with
john keelys machines. this can be brought into viktor schauberger and vortex
technology easily also.
enjoy!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9125003792513982191
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5430570751600484561

On 24/03/07, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/24/07, Esa Ruoho <esaruoho@gmail.com> wrote:
> > linking gmail isnt quite gonna do it. try again! :)
>
> Okay, how's this :-)
>
> http://snipurl.com/mf6j
>
>
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9125003792513982191&q=dale+pond&hl=en
>

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yes, this is the&nbsp; basic principles of sympathetic vibratory physics&nbsp; lecture of dale pond - where he expounds on john keely, cavitation, waterhammer effect, implosion, and the&nbsp; resonance/SVP principles of&nbsp; what exactly happened with acoustic cavitation + resonance based disassociation&nbsp; with john keelys machines. this can be brought into viktor schauberger and vortex technology easily also.
<br>enjoy!<br><span style="font-style: italic;" class="meta"> <a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9125003792513982191">http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9125003792513982191</a><br> <a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5430570751600484561">
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5430570751600484561</a></span><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 24/03/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Terry Blanton</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com">hohlraum@gmail.com
</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">On 3/24/07, Esa Ruoho &lt;<a href="mailto:esaruoho@gmail.com">esaruoho@gmail.com
</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; linking gmail isnt quite gonna do it. try again! :)<br><br>Okay, how&#39;s this :-)<br><br><a href="http://snipurl.com/mf6j">http://snipurl.com/mf6j</a><br><br><a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9125003792513982191&amp;q=dale+pond&amp;hl=en">
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9125003792513982191&amp;q=dale+pond&amp;hl=en</a><br></blockquote></div><br>

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Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:22:19 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Larsen and Windom in the Chicago Tribune
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Can you please post or summarise this story because viewing
it requires a subscription.

Harry

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I should explain this is strange partly because the same reporter
> wrote this story recently:
> 
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0703300070mar30,1,1977.story?ctrack
> =3&cset=true
> 

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On Apr 16, 2007, at 1:48 PM, Esa Ruoho wrote:

> anyone had any luck hunting down a di gital version of the p=F6pel =20
> report?
>
> (P=F6pel, Franz Rapport  Berich =FCber die Voruntersuchnungen mit =20
> Wendelrohren mit verschniedener Wandform International Report, =20
> Institut f=FCr Gesundheitstechnik, Institute of Technology in =20
> Stuttgart, 1952.
>

I spent a while, and pestered many a librarian - some of whom for =20
which English was not their first language.  Two people searching the =20=

university of Stuttgart could not find it, and offered that it may =20
have been lost.  I've wondered if Callum Coats has an original, =20
though I seem to remember discussing the matter with Curt Halberg and =20=

he offering that a copy wasn't in Coat's possession.  I never =20
received word from Jorg Schauberger.  I would try him if I were to =20
again be looking.

Sadly, it didn't seem too unreasonable that a library would loose a =20
copy of an old technical report, unpublished by formal journals.  =20
Still, it would be a notable loss in this case.  Someone today will =20
have to reproduce the work!


Zak


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<HTML><BODY style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; =
-khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><BR><DIV><DIV>On Apr 16, 2007, =
at 1:48 PM, Esa Ruoho wrote:</DIV><BR =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">anyone had =
any luck hunting down a di gital version of the p=F6pel =
report?<BR><BR>(<SPAN id=3D"st" name=3D"st" class=3D"st">P=F6pel</SPAN>, =
Franz <SPAN style=3D"font-style: italic;">Rapport=A0</SPAN> <SPAN =
style=3D"font-style: italic;">Berich =FCber die Voruntersuchnungen mit =
Wendelrohren mit verschniedener Wandform </SPAN>International Report, =
Institut f=FCr Gesundheitstechnik, Institute of Technology in Stuttgart, =
1952. <BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV>I spent a while, and pestered =
many a librarian - some of whom for which English was not their first =
language.=A0 Two people searching the university of Stuttgart could not =
find it, and offered that it may have been lost.=A0 I've wondered if =
Callum Coats has an original, though I seem to remember discussing the =
matter with Curt Halberg and he offering that a copy wasn't in Coat's =
possession.=A0 I never received word from Jorg Schauberger.=A0 I would =
try him if I were to again be looking.<BR></DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Sadly, it didn't seem too =
unreasonable that a library would loose a copy of an old technical =
report, unpublished by formal journals.=A0 Still, it would be a notable =
loss in this case.=A0 Someone today will have to reproduce the =
work!</DIV><DIV><BR class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV><BR =
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Zak</DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>=

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Subject: [Vo]:Larsen and Windom in the Chicago Tribune
Status: O
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At 03:22 PM 4/16/2007, you wrote:
>Can you please post or summarise this story because viewing
>it requires a subscription.
>
>Harry

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0704140065apr16,0,1831279.story?coll=chi-business-hed

INSIDE TECHNOLOGY
Nuclear reactions may produce phones' power

By Jon Van
Published April 16, 2007

For several years a Chicago entrepreneur has labored quietly building a 
company to create an alternative to batteries for powering cell phones and 
other small gadgets.

The company, Lattice Energy LLC, deliberately kept a low profile because 
its core technology, first called cold fusion 18 years ago, has long been 
ridiculed by mainstream scientists. Lewis Larsen, Lattice's founder, didn't 
want his enterprise tainted by the empty promises of unlimited cheap energy 
surrounding cold fusion.

Larsen, who has had careers in investment banking and consulting, has 
worked with many scientists doing experiments with what now is called 
low-energy nuclear reactions (LENR) rather than cold fusion. Even with the 
name change, he said, many scientists mistakenly still believe they are 
creating nuclear fusion in a bottle when they thrust palladium or other 
metals into heavy water and add energy.

"A lot of people are doing very good chemistry experiments, but they don't 
understand what's happening," Larsen said. "They write fine papers but then 
add foolish speculation."

A few years ago Larsen began collaborating with a theoretical physicist, 
professor Allan Widom of Northeastern University in Boston, to help him 
understand why LENR experiments often give off heat and charged particles.

Before taking on the assignment, Widom was a skeptic, but Larsen showed him 
enough experimental results from laboratories in Russia, China and Japan, 
as well as the U.S., to convince him that something important was happening.

The problem soon became apparent to Widom: The experimenters were convinced 
that atoms of a form of hydrogen called deuterium were fusing together to 
form helium.

"That kind of fusion requires very high temperatures," Widom said.

Rather than look for other explanations, most experimenters preferred to 
invent new laws of physics to account for cold fusion, Widom said. But 
instead of a strong nuclear force like fusion at work, he concluded that a 
weak force was at the core of the experimental results. Electrons were 
combining with protons to form neutrons, giving off energy in the process.

The entrepreneur and the professor have published their Widom-Larsen theory 
of low-energy nuclear reactions and have been meeting with business 
executives and government officials to build credibility for their ideas.

"Our model invokes no new physics," said Widom. "Everything we've done 
conforms to the Standard Model's predictions for weak interactions."

With advances in nanotechnology, Larsen predicts it will become practical 
to design devices using LENR to power cell phones that can last 500 hours. 
The technology also might be used to produce power in other settings, but 
Larsen said, "We're going for the best available market with lots of 
demand, and that's electronic mobile devices."

Larsen, who has competitors domestically and abroad also working on the 
problem, predicts that within five years there will be power sources based 
on LENR technology.

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Subject: [Vo]:Fwd: [KeelyNet_Interact] overcoming the 'lock' of self-running magnetics From: Jerry Decker
X-Suspected-Spam:  billb friends
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howard johnson connection - perhaps steorn connection? searl connection?
and hamel mention.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: KeelyNet_Interact@yahoogroups.com <KeelyNet_Interact@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 16 Apr 2007 07:36:34 -0000
Subject: [KeelyNet_Interact] Digest Number 134
To: KeelyNet_Interact@yahoogroups.com


 KeelyNet_Interact@yahoogroups.com
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KeelyNet_Interact;_ylc=X3oDMTJlM2w1a2xhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE5NDU2NjY1BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA4MjY3MgRzZWMDaGRyBHNsawNocGgEc3RpbWUDMTE3NjcwODk5NA-->
 overcoming the 'lock' of self-running
magnetics<http://mail.google.com/mail/?view=page&name=gp&ver=sh3fib53pgpk#111f9525ef1daa0b_3>From:
Jerry Decker voltage
continuous overcoming the 'lock' of self-running magnetics
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KeelyNet_Interact/message/290;_ylc=X3oDMTJxYXNkcnRkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE5NDU2NjY1BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA4MjY3MgRtc2dJZAMyOTAEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTE3NjcwODk5NA-->
 Posted
by: "Jerry Decker" jdecker@keelynet.com
<jdecker@keelynet.com?Subject=+Re%3Aovercoming%20the%20%27lock%27%20of%20self-running%20magnetics>
jwdatwork <http://profiles.yahoo.com/jwdatwork> Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:28 pm
(PST) Hola Folks!

I received a nice email and did my rant thing after these two articles,
but might be useful for experimenter insights.

If you've not seen the video yet, check out these two;

04/15/07 - Video - 5 seconds Self-Spinning Magnet Setup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0KHZ53g678

Beginnings of a possible perpetual motion effect. Uses a hard drive
magnet, 6 bearings and a toy elliptical magnet bought in Mexico. Moving
the bearings changes the magnetic path to form new poles. As shown in
frames 4 and 5, this is the configuration which gave 5 seconds of spin
for a brief twist to get it started. In the video you can see it
spinning rapidly for about 5 seconds. It might be possible to extend
this effect into a continuous motion. / Comments: It appears 8 bearings
would comprise a complete circle around the hard drive magnet, the
configuration uses 6 bearings with 5 bearings next to each other (from
45 to 225 degress) and one separated at roughly 315 degrees to assist
the spin effect.
--------------------
04/15/07 - Video - Self-running Magnetic Spindle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96mGrUOwTvY

23 yildir galisan gergek dvnergeg sadece bu videoda. I believe Donergec
means free energy in Polish. Anyway, the video link has been posted on
KeelyNet before and everytime I see it I am fascinated as it appears to
be self-powered. To the left you can see what look like two packs of
cigarettes as this guy smokes like a chimney. But the spindle spins for
the duration of the video which runs for about 4:21 minutes and has
contrast problems, too bright on the spindle and too dark elsewhere. I
took two captures and cleaned them up as best I could.
--------------------
> Also the magnetic spindal thing in polish looks a lot like a plastic
> toy that you can buy at science museums.

Yes, and reported here several months ago...these spindles sell for
about $10-$20 and you give it a little spin and it spins for a minute or
two...but in the video, his APPEARS to spin the length of the video.

One end is supported, the other floats free on a magnetic bearing...if
this guy is for real, he might have arranged the magnets at a 45 degree
angle like Howard Johnson and others who have claimed a self-running effect.

The trick of course it the lock at about 340 degrees or so where it
needs a kick to jump it back into the propulsive field. Because this
spindle wobbles (bobbles) when spinning it might be self-resetting, what
Bearden calls 'regauging'.

It is also what Hamel calls the 'Butterly Effect' where magnets wobble
enough to recock themselves into the propelling field. See;

http://www.keelynet.com/ohsako/ohsako.htm

on magnetic anomalies which include the TOMI and Ohsako devices.

Troy Reed used something similar many years ago but with spring loaded
clicker inkpens that recocked as the machine turned. In the old videos
you can hear this thing clicking like crazy for each pen on the huge wheel.

The elliptical magnet in the first video is novel because of the shape
letting it recock...everyone know that weebles wobble but they won't
fall down...well some people claim to have discovered a geometry which
rights itself under any condition...I looked but couldn't find the
reference...oh well, just buy a weeble and you got it.

--

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<div>howard johnson connection - perhaps steorn connection? searl connection?&nbsp; and hamel mention.</div>
<div><br><font size="2">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br></font><span class="gmail_quote"><font size="2">From: <b class="gmail_sendername"><a href="mailto:KeelyNet_Interact@yahoogroups.com">KeelyNet_Interact@yahoogroups.com
</a></b> &lt;<a href="mailto:KeelyNet_Interact@yahoogroups.com">KeelyNet_Interact@yahoogroups.com</a>&gt;<br>Date: 16 Apr 2007 07:36:34 -0000<br>Subject: [KeelyNet_Interact] Digest Number 134<br>To: <a href="mailto:KeelyNet_Interact@yahoogroups.com">
KeelyNet_Interact@yahoogroups.com</a><br><br>&nbsp;</font></span></div>
<div>
<div style="WIDTH: 795px; HEIGHT: 1943px">
<div><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KeelyNet_Interact;_ylc=X3oDMTJlM2w1a2xhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE5NDU2NjY1BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA4MjY3MgRzZWMDaGRyBHNsawNocGgEc3RpbWUDMTE3NjcwODk5NA--" target="_blank">
<font size="2">KeelyNet_Interact@yahoogroups.com </font></a></div>
<div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 15px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; FLOAT: left; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; WIDTH: 490px; PADDING-TOP: 0px">
<h1><a href="http://mail.google.com/mail/?view=page&amp;name=gp&amp;ver=sh3fib53pgpk#111f9525ef1daa0b_3"><font size="2">overcoming the &#39;lock&#39; of self-running magnetics</font></a><font size="2"> From: Jerry Decker 
</font></h1>
<h1><font size="2">voltage continuous </font><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KeelyNet_Interact/message/290;_ylc=X3oDMTJxYXNkcnRkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE5NDU2NjY1BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTA4MjY3MgRtc2dJZAMyOTAEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTE3NjcwODk5NA--" target="_blank" name="111f9525ef1daa0b_3">
<font size="2">overcoming the &#39;lock&#39; of self-running magnetics </font></a></h1>
<div>
<dl>
<dd>
<h3><font size="2">Posted by: &quot;Jerry Decker&quot; </font><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:jdecker@keelynet.com?Subject=+Re%3Aovercoming%20the%20%27lock%27%20of%20self-running%20magnetics" target="_blank">
<font size="2">jdecker@keelynet.com </font></a><font size="2">&nbsp; </font><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://profiles.yahoo.com/jwdatwork" target="_blank"><font size="2">jwdatwork </font></a>
</h3>
<h4><font size="2">Sun Apr&nbsp;15,&nbsp;2007 10:28&nbsp;pm (PST) </font></h4>
<div><font size="2">Hola Folks!<br><br>I received a nice email and did my rant thing after these two articles, <br>but might be useful for experimenter insights.<br><br>If you&#39;ve not seen the video yet, check out these two;
<br><br>04/15/07 - Video - 5 seconds Self-Spinning Magnet Setup<br><br></font><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0KHZ53g678" target="_blank"><font size="2">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0KHZ53g678
</font></a><br><br><font size="2">Beginnings of a possible perpetual motion effect. Uses a hard drive <br>magnet, 6 bearings and a toy elliptical magnet bought in Mexico. Moving <br>the bearings changes the magnetic path to form new poles. As shown in 
<br>frames 4 and 5, this is the configuration which gave 5 seconds of spin <br>for a brief twist to get it started. In the video you can see it <br>spinning rapidly for about 5 seconds. It might be possible to extend <br>
this effect into a continuous motion. / Comments: It appears 8 bearings <br>would comprise a complete circle around the hard drive magnet, the <br>configuration uses 6 bearings with 5 bearings next to each other (from <br>
45 to 225 degress) and one separated at roughly 315 degrees to assist <br>the spin effect.<br>--------------------<br>04/15/07 - Video - Self-running Magnetic Spindle<br><br></font><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96mGrUOwTvY" target="_blank">
<font size="2">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96mGrUOwTvY</font></a><br><br><font size="2">23 yildir galisan gergek dvnergeg sadece bu videoda. I believe Donergec <br>means free energy in Polish. Anyway, the video link has been posted on 
<br>KeelyNet before and everytime I see it I am fascinated as it appears to <br>be self-powered. To the left you can see what look like two packs of <br>cigarettes as this guy smokes like a chimney. But the spindle spins for 
<br>the duration of the video which runs for about 4:21 minutes and has <br>contrast problems, too bright on the spindle and too dark elsewhere. I <br>took two captures and cleaned them up as best I could.<br>--------------------
<br>&gt; Also the magnetic spindal thing in polish looks a lot like a plastic<br>&gt; toy that you can buy at science museums.<br><br>Yes, and reported here several months ago...these spindles sell for <br>about $10-$20 and you give it a little spin and it spins for a minute or 
<br>two...but in the video, his APPEARS to spin the length of the video.<br><br>One end is supported, the other floats free on a magnetic bearing...if <br>this guy is for real, he might have arranged the magnets at a 45 degree 
<br>angle like Howard Johnson and others who have claimed a self-running effect.<br><br>The trick of course it the lock at about 340 degrees or so where it <br>needs a kick to jump it back into the propulsive field. Because this 
<br>spindle wobbles (bobbles) when spinning it might be self-resetting, what <br>Bearden calls &#39;regauging&#39;.<br><br>It is also what Hamel calls the &#39;Butterly Effect&#39; where magnets wobble <br>enough to recock themselves into the propelling field. See;
<br><br></font><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.keelynet.com/ohsako/ohsako.htm" target="_blank"><font size="2">http://www.keelynet.com/ohsako/ohsako.htm</font></a><br><br><font size="2">
on magnetic anomalies which include the TOMI and Ohsako devices.<br><br>Troy Reed used something similar many years ago but with spring loaded <br>clicker inkpens that recocked as the machine turned. In the old videos <br>
you can hear this thing clicking like crazy for each pen on the huge wheel.<br><br>The elliptical magnet in the first video is novel because of the shape <br>letting it recock...everyone know that weebles wobble but they won&#39;t 
<br>fall down...well some people claim to have discovered a geometry which <br>rights itself under any condition...I looked but couldn&#39;t find the <br>reference...oh well, just buy a weeble and you got it.<br><br>-- <br>
</font></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div></dd></dl></div></div><font size="2"><img height="1" alt="" width="1" border="0"> </font></div></div>

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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr 16 19:40:35 2007
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Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:38:29 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Larsen and Windom in the Chicago Tribune
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Steven Krivit wrote:

> At 03:22 PM 4/16/2007, you wrote:
>> Can you please post or summarise this story because viewing
>> it requires a subscription.
>> 
>> Harry
> 
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0704140065apr16,0,1831279.story?col
> l=chi-business-hed
> 
> INSIDE TECHNOLOGY
> Nuclear reactions may produce phones' power
> 
> By Jon Van
> Published April 16, 2007


Thanks, but I meant the story from March 30.
Or was it posted previously?

Harry


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Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 05:42:14 +0300
From: "Esa Ruoho" <esaruoho@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Water vortex footage
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have you tried getting in touch with klaus rauber of
http://www.implosion-ev.de/ ?  also, have you tried calling the PKS? it is
open on wednesdays i believe 10am to 2pm (hmm, gmt+1? not sure)  the info
might be at http://www.viktorschauberger.at/

regarding klaus rauber - i have a german documentary where he shows new
pictures that look almost similar to the p=F6pel report pictures in callum
coats "energy evolution" book (which has  the p=F6pel report as an addition
right at the end). but it would be great to hook up the original tests, jus=
t
to .. well, have them.
if i get to IWONE3  in h=F6=F6r,malm=F6,sweden, i could try and ask klaus r=
auber
and curt hallberg - however thats in august, and im still not 100% if i can
afford to go to it.

On 17/04/07, Zachary Jones <zak@newalexandria.org> wrote:
>
> On Apr 16, 2007, at 1:48 PM, Esa Ruoho wrote:
>
> anyone had any luck hunting down a di gital version of the p=F6pel report=
?
> (P=F6pel, Franz Rapport  Berich =FCber die Voruntersuchnungen mit Wendelr=
ohren
> mit verschniedener Wandform International Report, Institut f=FCr
> Gesundheitstechnik, Institute of Technology in Stuttgart, 1952.
>
> I spent a while, and pestered many a librarian - some of whom for which
> English was not their first language.  Two people searching the universit=
y
> of Stuttgart could not find it, and offered that it may have been lost.
> I've wondered if Callum Coats has an original, though I seem to remember
> discussing the matter with Curt Halberg and he offering that a copy wasn'=
t
> in Coat's possession.  I never received word from Jorg Schauberger.  I wo=
uld
> try him if I were to again be looking.
> Sadly, it didn't seem too unreasonable that a library would loose a copy
> of an old technical report, unpublished by formal journals.  Still, it wo=
uld
> be a notable loss in this case.  Someone today will have to reproduce the
> work!
> Zak
>

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have you tried getting in touch with klaus rauber of <a href=3D"http://www.=
implosion-ev.de/">http://www.implosion-ev.de/</a> ?&nbsp; also, have you tr=
ied calling the PKS? it is open on wednesdays i believe 10am to 2pm (hmm, g=
mt+1? not sure)&nbsp; the info might be at=20
<a href=3D"http://www.viktorschauberger.at/">http://www.viktorschauberger.a=
t/</a><br><br>regarding klaus rauber - i have a german documentary where he=
 shows new pictures that look almost similar to the p=F6pel report pictures=
 in callum coats &quot;energy evolution&quot; book (which has&nbsp; the p=
=F6pel report as an addition right at the end). but it would be great to ho=
ok up the original tests, just to .. well, have them.
<br>if i get to IWONE3&nbsp; in h=F6=F6r,malm=F6,sweden, i could try and as=
k klaus rauber and curt hallberg - however thats in august, and im still no=
t 100% if i can afford to go to it. <br><br><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote=
">On 17/04/07,=20
<b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Zachary Jones</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zak@n=
ewalexandria.org">zak@newalexandria.org</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); mar=
gin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style=3D"">On Apr 16, 2007, at 1:48 PM, Esa Ruoho wrote:<br><div><span=
 class=3D"q"><blockquote type=3D"cite">anyone had any luck hunting down a d=
i gital version of the p=F6pel report?<br>(<span name=3D"st">P=F6pel</span>=
, Franz=20
<span style=3D"font-style: italic;">Rapport&nbsp;</span> <span style=3D"fon=
t-style: italic;">Berich =FCber die Voruntersuchnungen mit Wendelrohren mit=
 verschniedener Wandform </span>International Report, Institut f=FCr Gesund=
heitstechnik, Institute of Technology in Stuttgart, 1952.=20
<br></blockquote></span>I spent a while, and pestered many a librarian - so=
me of whom for which English was not their first language.&nbsp; Two people=
 searching the university of Stuttgart could not find it, and offered that =
it may have been lost.&nbsp; I&#39;ve wondered if Callum Coats has an origi=
nal, though I seem to remember discussing the matter with Curt Halberg and =
he offering that a copy wasn&#39;t in Coat&#39;s possession.&nbsp; I never =
received word from Jorg Schauberger.&nbsp; I would try him if I were to aga=
in be looking.
<br></div><div>Sadly, it didn&#39;t seem too unreasonable that a library wo=
uld loose a copy of an old technical report, unpublished by formal journals=
.&nbsp; Still, it would be a notable loss in this case.&nbsp; Someone today=
 will have to reproduce the work!
</div><div>Zak</div></div></blockquote></div>

------=_Part_55969_2028039.1176777734443--

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Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:40:36 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push
In-reply-to: <f7eeb3430704161221s7fc3c1cv9424fdbdd61b359f@mail.gmail.com>
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What gives?

Harry

Terry Blanton wrote:

> Naaa, the earth sucks.
> 
> On 4/16/07, Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>> 
>> I happen to think gravity is more like a rush rather than like
>> a push or a pull.
>> 
>> Harry
>> 
>> 
> 

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Subject: [Vo]:Larsen and Windom in the Chicago Tribune
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>Thanks, but I meant the story from March 30.
>Or was it posted previously?
>
>Harry




Loyal group chases cold-fusion dream
Once touted as source of unlimited energy, cold fusion generates little 
interest today

By Jon Van
Tribune staff reporter
Published March 30, 2007

Unlimited energy brewed in a bottle sparked a worldwide sensation nearly 18 
years ago. Promises that cold fusion would power the planet, however, were 
shot down in little more than a month.

On Thursday, researchers who continue to believe in cold fusion drew fewer 
than a dozen spectators to Chicago for the national meeting of the American 
Chemical Society.

Still, the dream believers remain undeterred.

"I don't know that my efforts have been dismissed," said George Miley, 
director of the fusion studies lab at the University of Illinois at 
Urbana-Champaign. "They've just been ignored."

Miley, who does research mostly in mainstream high-temperature fusion, 
spends his free time doing cold-fusion experiments, and his results have 
convinced him that limitless power is possible, although he said it will 
take much more research to obtain.

The first step will require regaining attention from a scientific community 
and a general populace that dismissed the cold-fusion notion almost as soon 
as they heard about it. But overcoming its past may be too big a hurdle for 
cold fusion.

"These are mostly the same guys who jumped on board 18 years ago," said 
Robert Park, a physics professor at the University of Maryland who wrote 
"Voodoo Science," a book about pseudoscience. "To my knowledge, they 
haven't convinced a single soul outside their own community.

"These guys aren't bad guys. They're just wrong, as far as I can tell."

Cold fusion started 18 years ago when Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann, 
researchers working at the University of Utah, held a press conference to 
announce that a new power source was just around the corner to save the 
Earth from pollution and high energy bills.

The Wall Street Journal's front-page story gave the claims credibility, and 
within a week cold fusion landed on the covers of Time, Newsweek and 
BusinessWeek. A standing ovation greeted Pons and Fleischmann when they 
attended the 1989 American Chemical Society meeting.

But most scientists who tried to replicate the Pons/Fleischmann findings 
found they couldn't, and the pair soon admitted some mistakes.

They continued to insist that their experiments with deuterium, a form of 
hydrogen found in seawater, and palladium produced more energy than the 
electricity fed into the apparatus to make it work. This indicated that 
some deuterium atoms were fusing with each other at room temperature, 
releasing tremendous energy, they said.

Widespread criticism caused them to retreat from promises of vast 
commercially available power. Along with cold fusion, they faded from 
public view.

But for a hard core of scientists around the world, as well as any number 
of patent lawyers and hopeful investors, cold fusion remained intriguing.

As he surveyed the mostly empty chairs in a meeting room Thursday at 
McCormick Place, Melvin Miles, a colleague of Fleischmann's, lamented that 
"not many people are here today because most people thought this was proven 
wrong years ago."

Because Fleischmann, who lives in the United Kingdom, is 80 years old and 
averse to travel, Miles presented Fleischmann's latest results that still 
attempt to refute criticisms leveled at work done 18 years ago. Other 
presenters have moved beyond the original Pons/Fleischmann experiments.

Miley provided results from Urbana, where he used detectors to document 
that charged particles are emitted from cold-fusion experiments, a sign of 
nuclear activity. Others presented similar evidence.

Miley said his results have been accepted for publication in a mainstream 
science publication, the Journal of Fusion Energy; he hopes critics will 
come forward to dispute his results.

"No one argues about it," he said. "They think it's too absurd. I've been 
convinced for some while that cold fusion is real. I want to find how to do 
something useful with it."

Difficulties facing cold-fusion advocates illustrate just how messy and 
human the scientific process can be, said Bernard Beck, a Northwestern 
University emeritus sociologist.

"Science is very tricky compared to all other ways to figure out the 
world," said Beck. "It prides itself on being open to being corrected. It's 
not reactionary or obsessive. That's a wonderful promise, but because 
science is such a huge institution, it cannot get anywhere unless people 
are in some agreement.

"That tends to make things conservative by its nature."

So, like anyone else, scientists mostly reject radical new ideas, but don't 
close the door completely. Hence, the cold-fusion folks got a daylong 
symposium at the chemical society meeting.

"In other traditions," said Beck, "the people in charge might say go get 
these guys and burn 'em at the stake. In science, they just get ignored."

--=====================_807967125==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Thanks, but I meant the story
from March 30.<br>
Or was it posted previously?<br><br>
Harry</blockquote><br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab><br><br>
<br>
Loyal group chases cold-fusion dream<br>
Once touted as source of unlimited energy, cold fusion generates little
interest today<br><br>
By Jon Van<br>
Tribune staff reporter<br>
Published March 30, 2007<br><br>
Unlimited energy brewed in a bottle sparked a worldwide sensation nearly
18 years ago. Promises that cold fusion would power the planet, however,
were shot down in little more than a month.<br><br>
On Thursday, researchers who continue to believe in cold fusion drew
fewer than a dozen spectators to Chicago for the national meeting of the
American Chemical Society.<br><br>
Still, the dream believers remain undeterred.<br><br>
&quot;I don't know that my efforts have been dismissed,&quot; said George
Miley, director of the fusion studies lab at the University of Illinois
at Urbana-Champaign. &quot;They've just been ignored.&quot;<br><br>
Miley, who does research mostly in mainstream high-temperature fusion,
spends his free time doing cold-fusion experiments, and his results have
convinced him that limitless power is possible, although he said it will
take much more research to obtain.<br><br>
The first step will require regaining attention from a scientific
community and a general populace that dismissed the cold-fusion notion
almost as soon as they heard about it. But overcoming its past may be too
big a hurdle for cold fusion.<br><br>
&quot;These are mostly the same guys who jumped on board 18 years
ago,&quot; said Robert Park, a physics professor at the University of
Maryland who wrote &quot;Voodoo Science,&quot; a book about
pseudoscience. &quot;To my knowledge, they haven't convinced a single
soul outside their own community.<br><br>
&quot;These guys aren't bad guys. They're just wrong, as far as I can
tell.&quot;<br><br>
Cold fusion started 18 years ago when Stanley Pons and Martin
Fleischmann, researchers working at the University of Utah, held a press
conference to announce that a new power source was just around the corner
to save the Earth from pollution and high energy bills.<br><br>
The Wall Street Journal's front-page story gave the claims credibility,
and within a week cold fusion landed on the covers of Time, Newsweek and
BusinessWeek. A standing ovation greeted Pons and Fleischmann when they
attended the 1989 American Chemical Society meeting.<br><br>
But most scientists who tried to replicate the Pons/Fleischmann findings
found they couldn't, and the pair soon admitted some mistakes.<br><br>
They continued to insist that their experiments with deuterium, a form of
hydrogen found in seawater, and palladium produced more energy than the
electricity fed into the apparatus to make it work. This indicated that
some deuterium atoms were fusing with each other at room temperature,
releasing tremendous energy, they said.<br><br>
Widespread criticism caused them to retreat from promises of vast
commercially available power. Along with cold fusion, they faded from
public view.<br><br>
But for a hard core of scientists around the world, as well as any number
of patent lawyers and hopeful investors, cold fusion remained
intriguing.<br><br>
As he surveyed the mostly empty chairs in a meeting room Thursday at
McCormick Place, Melvin Miles, a colleague of Fleischmann's, lamented
that &quot;not many people are here today because most people thought
this was proven wrong years ago.&quot;<br><br>
Because Fleischmann, who lives in the United Kingdom, is 80 years old and
averse to travel, Miles presented Fleischmann's latest results that still
attempt to refute criticisms leveled at work done 18 years ago. Other
presenters have moved beyond the original Pons/Fleischmann
experiments.<br><br>
Miley provided results from Urbana, where he used detectors to document
that charged particles are emitted from cold-fusion experiments, a sign
of nuclear activity. Others presented similar evidence.<br><br>
Miley said his results have been accepted for publication in a mainstream
science publication, the Journal of Fusion Energy; he hopes critics will
come forward to dispute his results.<br><br>
&quot;No one argues about it,&quot; he said. &quot;They think it's too
absurd. I've been convinced for some while that cold fusion is real. I
want to find how to do something useful with it.&quot;<br><br>
Difficulties facing cold-fusion advocates illustrate just how messy and
human the scientific process can be, said Bernard Beck, a Northwestern
University emeritus sociologist.<br><br>
&quot;Science is very tricky compared to all other ways to figure out the
world,&quot; said Beck. &quot;It prides itself on being open to being
corrected. It's not reactionary or obsessive. That's a wonderful promise,
but because science is such a huge institution, it cannot get anywhere
unless people are in some agreement.<br><br>
&quot;That tends to make things conservative by its
nature.&quot;<br><br>
So, like anyone else, scientists mostly reject radical new ideas, but
don't close the door completely. Hence, the cold-fusion folks got a
daylong symposium at the chemical society meeting.<br><br>
&quot;In other traditions,&quot; said Beck, &quot;the people in charge
might say go get these guys and burn 'em at the stake. In science, they
just get ignored.&quot;<br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_807967125==.ALT--

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Steven Krivit wrote:

>> Thanks, but I meant the story from March 30.
>>
> "These are mostly the same guys who jumped on board 18 years ago," 
> said Robert Park, a physics professor at the University of Maryland 
> who wrote
>
> "These guys aren't bad guys. They're just wrong, as far as I can tell."
>
Leave it to Parksie! A venture capitalist is bringing a LENR powered 
cell to market, and he's still lying and dening. I'm glad that Robert 
doesn't regard me as bad because I think that he's evil. Or is he 
stupid? na, he's too smart to be that stupid.


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From: "R.C.Macaulay" <walhalla@cvtv.net>
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References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070416183736.100bd650@mail.newenergytimes.com> <C249AB65.17CFE%eo200@ncf.ca> <6.2.0.14.2.20070416212809.100a1a00@mail.newenergytimes.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Larsen and Windom in the Chicago Tribune
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 08:33:48 -0500
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The March 30,2007 report by Jon Van is revealing because it provides =
insight to the thinking of  people he quoted.=20

My suggestion... provoke the science community to continue verbalizing =
their views. Get reporters like Jon Van to publish and write analysis of =
their statements. Mainstream news media is yet to pick up on rebirth of =
LENR.

This ongoing drama has all the ingredients of a Dime Box Saloon =
discussion that is going to become heated before the night is over. When =
you see the bartender take the mirror down from back of the bar ... =
well.. as Jones said.. the law of unintended consequences.. hmmm.

Richard
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>The March 30,2007 report by Jon Van =
is revealing=20
because it&nbsp;provides&nbsp;insight&nbsp;to the thinking of&nbsp; =
people he=20
quoted. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>My suggestion... provoke =
the&nbsp;science=20
community&nbsp;to continue verbalizing their views. Get reporters like =
Jon Van=20
to publish and write analysis of their statements. Mainstream news media =
is yet=20
to pick up on rebirth of LENR.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>This ongoing drama has all the =
ingredients of a=20
Dime Box Saloon discussion that is going to become heated before the =
night is=20
over. When you see the bartender take the mirror down from back of the =
bar ...=20
well.. as Jones said.. the law of unintended consequences.. =
hmmm.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Richard</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 09:36:19 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]: Gravity is a Push
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The stars?

On 4/16/07, Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
> What gives?
>
> Harry
>
> Terry Blanton wrote:
>
> > Naaa, the earth sucks.
> >
> > On 4/16/07, Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >> I happen to think gravity is more like a rush rather than like
> >> a push or a pull.
> >>
> >> Harry
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>

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Subject: [Vo]:Water Fuel,  pt. 153
Status: O
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Subtitled: how many fish can we catch today?

http://www.h2daily.com/news/water-replaces-gas-20070416-256-50.html

Side Note: Under the "names that work" category, one must include 
writers named Chatterjee. Kinda like the proud Sandak named Hugh Bris.

It may seem an uncommon name until you do a google search for Chatterjee 
and get 5 million hits.

Anyway - back to a deep subject: water. If you read between the PR 
Chatter, so to speak, where the inventor - James D. Hunt sez: a short 
summary of the process is "hydrogen extraction from water via plasmatic 
induction." "By inducing a small amount of plasma into a water tank, 
we're able to extract hydrogen from the water."

... and then, as Vo's (and voyeurs alike) are wont-to-do, you think 
about the larger field of LENR for a moment, in this context of how to 
best convert whatever OU may materialize from a certain water plasma ... 
(although by definition almost, a nuclear reaction is not technically OU)

...then thoughts and heads may turn to that other LENR headline of 
recent years; that also being from a "name that works": "Mizuno" ('mizu' 
being a leaner Japanese word for water).

Yes... feeling a bit puny today. Anyway -- is there any doubt that 
Mizuno's water plasma may fit like hand-in-glove into the OU "hunt" for 
water fuel (the "Hunt process," so to speak...

Jones

BTW - the Hawaiian word for water is "wai" and the Hawaiian word for 
wealth is "waiwai" ... which I think is rather precient. You might 
expect the similarity in a desert environment, but there is little which 
is more ubiquitous there than H2O, yet they did square it with the 
convept of wealth....

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Subject: [Vo]:A Magic Ox ?
Status: O
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Any way you axe the question, this particular magic Ox is unquestionably 
no "babe"... closer to a flash of lightning, perhaps...

There are so-called magic numbers of protons and neutrons in nuclei. 
Elements in the periodic table which fit this criterion are particularly 
stable: The numbers are:

2,8,20,28,50,82 and 126

Atomic nuclei consisting of such magic number of nucleons, either of 
protons or neutrons or the combination of the two -- have a higher 
average binding energy per nucleon than one would expect based upon 
predictions from any of the semi-empirical mass-formula stability 
calculations, and they are significantly more stable against nuclear 
decay - by at least an order of magnitude (timewise) in most cases than 
are similar non-magic species. Pythagoras was right - there is magic in 
numbers.

There is no element which can satisfy "triple stability" which would be 
that the neutrons, protons, and the combination were all three magic.

There are a few doubly stable elements: helium, oxygen, calcium.

 From a purely theoretical standpoint, then, one is led to wonder why 
element 28, which is Nickel, does not have a stable isotope: 56Ni or why 
nickel is not as common as iron (element 26), or why 54Fe is not the 
most common isotope of iron. It should be - on paper, since the 28 
neutrons would be a favored magic number within the range of 
excess-neutrons that this particular 'slot' on the periodic table should 
have.

In some asteroids, BTW, there is lots of nickel, occasionally more 
nickel than iron. And in some the isotope ratio is highly warped over 
what is found on earth. In fact all of these curiosities have an 
inter-related underlying rationale, leading to an eventual understanding 
of the role of Pythagorean-type 'magic'.

In fact, in cosmology and in the supernova - 56 Ni is an important 
species - but not on earth. And one reason that there is so much iron 
wrt to nickel here goes back to that cosmic furnace situation, where 
56Ni decays to iron -- since the nickel 'slot' requires a greater number 
of neutrons than protons for threshold stability. Do not confuse all of 
this nickel-slot talk with a nickelodeon <g> even if it is only wastes 3 
minutes of your time. The magic part is overhwhelmed, so to speak, by 
threshold slot parameters of the periodic table

OK - Once it comes out of a strong gravity field, then - the 56Ni decays 
to iron (or cobalt) making iron the most abundant metal around. In the 
laboratory, 56Ni decays via electron capture with a 6-day half-life. 
Even so, this is a factor of 18 times longer life than a similar 
situation without the 'magic', such as 52Fe, for instance, which has a 
half-life in hours.

All of this rambling is offered as a preamble to another speculation 
regarding oxygen, when in an intense arc, such that the result is a 
temporary "quark soup" situation, so to speak. This might help explain 
why lightning seems to be part of an energy anomaly, in some cases.

... or not. The following has just been dreampt up in the last few 
minutes, and you can now have the opportunity to vet it.

Back to that point about no element which can satisfy "triple stability" 
which would be that the neutrons, protons, and the combination were all 
three magic. There is only one possibility, in the entire panoply of 
elements which even comes close to potential short-term triple stability 
(even with inherent overall impossibility due to the 'slot' limitations) 
and which would be extremely transitory even if it were real (which is 
just a guess). And this scenario would be coming out of an intense arc 
discharge, like lightning (or the supernova).

8 protons, 20 neutrons and 28 nucleons works on paper. The 20 neutral 
particles, which are neutron-like, presents the situation which might 
include hydrinos, IF there is such a particle) giving a total nucleus of 
28. Triple temporary stability even if the neutron imbalance is 
impossible to sustain.

That is the proposed temporary species. This would be a (highly 
speculative) transitory nucleus which would surely have a lifetime of 
much less than one second, but being in the category where triple 
stability might be found in certain situations (i.e. an intense gravity 
field) this albeit short lifetime - could nevertheless be far longer 
than expected, and the resultant decay more intense than expected.

...or not ;-)

Jones





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Subject: [Vo]:implosion in water
Status: RO
X-Status: 

R.C.Macaulay wrote:

> This ongoing drama has all the ingredients of a Dime Box Saloon 
> discussion that is going to become heated before the night is over. 
> When you see the bartender take the mirror down from back of the bar ..

Your post reminded me that you might like seeing the pictures on this 
page http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html . Too bad it's in 
German.


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:41:02 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:implosion in water
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I love the aesthetics of the whirlpool.

Perhaps we will see more whirlpools -- instead of fountains -- in
or around public buildings.

Harry



thomas malloy wrote:


> Your post reminded me that you might like seeing the pictures on this
> page http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html . Too bad it's in
> German.

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Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 14:00:53 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:A Magic Ox ?
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On 4/17/07, Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:

> OK - Once it comes out of a strong gravity field, then - the 56Ni decays
> to iron (or cobalt) making iron the most abundant metal around.

Did I read it here or elsewhere that the reason for the abundance of
Fe is that it is the end of elements which can fuse and the end of the
fission of heavier elements?  It's the crossover point.

Terry

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For those who might enjoy viewing a graphic representation of the combination of nucleons in all their varied isotopes see the following (segre) chart:

http://atom.kaeri.re.kr/

another representation can be found at:

http://www.meta-synthesis.com/webbook/33_segre/segre.html


Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com


> 
> 
> Any way you axe the question, this particular magic Ox is unquestionably 
> no "babe"... closer to a flash of lightning, perhaps...
> 
> There are so-called magic numbers of protons and neutrons in nuclei. 
> Elements in the periodic table which fit this criterion are particularly 
> stable: The numbers are:
> 
> 2,8,20,28,50,82 and 126
> 
> Atomic nuclei consisting of such magic number of nucleons, either of 
> protons or neutrons or the combination of the two -- have a higher 
> average binding energy per nucleon than one would expect based upon 
> predictions from any of the semi-empirical mass-formula stability 
> calculations, and they are significantly more stable against nuclear 
> decay - by at least an order of magnitude (timewise) in most cases than 
> are similar non-magic species. Pythagoras was right - there is magic in 
> numbers.
> 
> There is no element which can satisfy "triple stability" which would be 
> that the neutrons, protons, and the combination were all three magic.
> 
> There are a few doubly stable elements: helium, oxygen, calcium.
> 
>  From a purely theoretical standpoint, then, one is led to wonder why 
> element 28, which is Nickel, does not have a stable isotope: 56Ni or why 
> nickel is not as common as iron (element 26), or why 54Fe is not the 
> most common isotope of iron. It should be - on paper, since the 28 
> neutrons would be a favored magic number within the range of 
> excess-neutrons that this particular 'slot' on the periodic table should 
> have.
> 
> In some asteroids, BTW, there is lots of nickel, occasionally more 
> nickel than iron. And in some the isotope ratio is highly warped over 
> what is found on earth. In fact all of these curiosities have an 
> inter-related underlying rationale, leading to an eventual understanding 
> of the role of Pythagorean-type 'magic'.
> 
> In fact, in cosmology and in the supernova - 56 Ni is an important 
> species - but not on earth. And one reason that there is so much iron 
> wrt to nickel here goes back to that cosmic furnace situation, where 
> 56Ni decays to iron -- since the nickel 'slot' requires a greater number 
> of neutrons than protons for threshold stability. Do not confuse all of 
> this nickel-slot talk with a nickelodeon <g> even if it is only wastes 3 
> minutes of your time. The magic part is overhwhelmed, so to speak, by 
> threshold slot parameters of the periodic table
> 
> OK - Once it comes out of a strong gravity field, then - the 56Ni decays 
> to iron (or cobalt) making iron the most abundant metal around. In the 
> laboratory, 56Ni decays via electron capture with a 6-day half-life. 
> Even so, this is a factor of 18 times longer life than a similar 
> situation without the 'magic', such as 52Fe, for instance, which has a 
> half-life in hours.
> 
> All of this rambling is offered as a preamble to another speculation 
> regarding oxygen, when in an intense arc, such that the result is a 
> temporary "quark soup" situation, so to speak. This might help explain 
> why lightning seems to be part of an energy anomaly, in some cases.
> 
> ... or not. The following has just been dreampt up in the last few 
> minutes, and you can now have the opportunity to vet it.
> 
> Back to that point about no element which can satisfy "triple stability" 
> which would be that the neutrons, protons, and the combination were all 
> three magic. There is only one possibility, in the entire panoply of 
> elements which even comes close to potential short-term triple stability 
> (even with inherent overall impossibility due to the 'slot' limitations) 
> and which would be extremely transitory even if it were real (which is 
> just a guess). And this scenario would be coming out of an intense arc 
> discharge, like lightning (or the supernova).
> 
> 8 protons, 20 neutrons and 28 nucleons works on paper. The 20 neutral 
> particles, which are neutron-like, presents the situation which might 
> include hydrinos, IF there is such a particle) giving a total nucleus of 
> 28. Triple temporary stability even if the neutron imbalance is 
> impossible to sustain.
> 
> That is the proposed temporary species. This would be a (highly 
> speculative) transitory nucleus which would surely have a lifetime of 
> much less than one second, but being in the category where triple 
> stability might be found in certain situations (i.e. an intense gravity 
> field) this albeit short lifetime - could nevertheless be far longer 
> than expected, and the resultant decay more intense than expected.
> 
> ...or not ;-)
> 
> Jones
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
---
Steven Vincent Johnson
svj@orionworks.com
http://orionworks.com
--=_c8c852a6b42e13412880e091422d2964
Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For those who might enjoy viewing a graphic representation of the combinati=
on of nucleons in all their varied isotopes see the following (segre) chart=
:<br />
<br />
http://atom.kaeri.re.kr/<br />
<br />
another representation can be found at:<br />
<br />
http://www.meta-synthesis.com/webbook/33_segre/segre.html<br />
<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
Steven Vincent Johnson<br />
www.OrionWorks.com<br />
<br />
<br />
> <br />
> <br />
> Any way you axe the question, this particular magic Ox is unquestionably =
<br />
> no "babe"... closer to a flash of lightning, perhaps...<br />
> <br />
> There are so-called magic numbers of protons and neutrons in nuclei. <br =
/>
> Elements in the periodic table which fit this criterion are particularly =
<br />
> stable: The numbers are:<br />
> <br />
> 2,8,20,28,50,82 and 126<br />
> <br />
> Atomic nuclei consisting of such magic number of nucleons, either of <br =
/>
> protons or neutrons or the combination of the two -- have a higher <br />
> average binding energy per nucleon than one would expect based upon <br /=
>
> predictions from any of the semi-empirical mass-formula stability <br />
> calculations, and they are significantly more stable against nuclear <br =
/>
> decay - by at least an order of magnitude (timewise) in most cases than <=
br />
> are similar non-magic species. Pythagoras was right - there is magic in <=
br />
> numbers.<br />
> <br />
> There is no element which can satisfy "triple stability" which would be <=
br />
> that the neutrons, protons, and the combination were all three magic.<br =
/>
> <br />
> There are a few doubly stable elements: helium, oxygen, calcium.<br />
> <br />
>  From a purely theoretical standpoint, then, one is led to wonder why <br=
 />
> element 28, which is Nickel, does not have a stable isotope: 56Ni or why =
<br />
> nickel is not as common as iron (element 26), or why 54Fe is not the <br =
/>
> most common isotope of iron. It should be - on paper, since the 28 <br />
> neutrons would be a favored magic number within the range of <br />
> excess-neutrons that this particular 'slot' on the periodic table should =
<br />
> have.<br />
> <br />
> In some asteroids, BTW, there is lots of nickel, occasionally more <br />
> nickel than iron. And in some the isotope ratio is highly warped over <br=
 />
> what is found on earth. In fact all of these curiosities have an <br />
> inter-related underlying rationale, leading to an eventual understanding =
<br />
> of the role of Pythagorean-type 'magic'.<br />
> <br />
> In fact, in cosmology and in the supernova - 56 Ni is an important <br />
> species - but not on earth. And one reason that there is so much iron <br=
 />
> wrt to nickel here goes back to that cosmic furnace situation, where <br =
/>
> 56Ni decays to iron -- since the nickel 'slot' requires a greater number =
<br />
> of neutrons than protons for threshold stability. Do not confuse all of <=
br />
> this nickel-slot talk with a nickelodeon <g> even if it is only wastes 3 =
<br />
> minutes of your time. The magic part is overhwhelmed, so to speak, by <br=
 />
> threshold slot parameters of the periodic table<br />
> <br />
> OK - Once it comes out of a strong gravity field, then - the 56Ni decays =
<br />
> to iron (or cobalt) making iron the most abundant metal around. In the <b=
r />
> laboratory, 56Ni decays via electron capture with a 6-day half-life. <br =
/>
> Even so, this is a factor of 18 times longer life than a similar <br />
> situation without the 'magic', such as 52Fe, for instance, which has a <b=
r />
> half-life in hours.<br />
> <br />
> All of this rambling is offered as a preamble to another speculation <br =
/>
> regarding oxygen, when in an intense arc, such that the result is a <br /=
>
> temporary "quark soup" situation, so to speak. This might help explain <b=
r />
> why lightning seems to be part of an energy anomaly, in some cases.<br />
> <br />
> ... or not. The following has just been dreampt up in the last few <br />
> minutes, and you can now have the opportunity to vet it.<br />
> <br />
> Back to that point about no element which can satisfy "triple stability" =
<br />
> which would be that the neutrons, protons, and the combination were all <=
br />
> three magic. There is only one possibility, in the entire panoply of <br =
/>
> elements which even comes close to potential short-term triple stability =
<br />
> (even with inherent overall impossibility due to the 'slot' limitations) =
<br />
> and which would be extremely transitory even if it were real (which is <b=
r />
> just a guess). And this scenario would be coming out of an intense arc <b=
r />
> discharge, like lightning (or the supernova).<br />
> <br />
> 8 protons, 20 neutrons and 28 nucleons works on paper. The 20 neutral <br=
 />
> particles, which are neutron-like, presents the situation which might <br=
 />
> include hydrinos, IF there is such a particle) giving a total nucleus of =
<br />
> 28. Triple temporary stability even if the neutron imbalance is <br />
> impossible to sustain.<br />
> <br />
> That is the proposed temporary species. This would be a (highly <br />
> speculative) transitory nucleus which would surely have a lifetime of <br=
 />
> much less than one second, but being in the category where triple <br />
> stability might be found in certain situations (i.e. an intense gravity <=
br />
> field) this albeit short lifetime - could nevertheless be far longer <br =
/>
> than expected, and the resultant decay more intense than expected.<br />
> <br />
> ...or not ;-)<br />
> <br />
> Jones<br />
> <br />
> <br />
> <br />
> <br />
> <br />
> <br />
---<br />
Steven Vincent Johnson<br />
svj@orionworks.com<br />
http://orionworks.com
--=_c8c852a6b42e13412880e091422d2964--

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These guys have wonderful vision, but do they have the right stuff? Hmm. 
Apparently they don't know how to spell Martin and Tom's names correctly. 
Not a good sign.


http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?FilingID=5103894&Type=HTML

Russ George and Dr. Tom Passell (formerly of the Nuclear Power Division of 
the Electric Power Research Institute of Palo Alto), have been involved 
with solid-state fusion research since 1989. Mr. George's successful 
experimental prototypes have been tested at the Los Alamos National 
Laboratory and Stanford Research Institute. D2Fusion's management team is 
supported by a Scientific Advisory Board that includes Dr. Brian Josephson 
(Cambridge Nobel Laureate), Dr. Martin Fleischman (one of the two original 
proponents of cold fusion in 1989) as well as Dr. Tom Clayton, Dr. Dale 
Tuggle and Dr. Malcolm Fowler, from the Los Alamos National Laboratory.



--=====================_861164953==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
These guys have wonderful vision, but do they have the right stuff? Hmm.
Apparently they don't know how to spell Martin and Tom's names correctly.
Not a good sign. <br><br>
<br>
<a href="http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?FilingID=5103894&amp;Type=HTML" eudora="autourl">
http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/fetchFilingFrameset.aspx?FilingID=5103894&amp;Type=HTML<br>
<br>
</a><font face="TIMES NEW ROMAN">Russ George and Dr. Tom Passell
(formerly of the Nuclear Power Division of the Electric Power Research
Institute of Palo Alto), have been involved with solid-state fusion
research since 1989. Mr. Georges successful experimental prototypes have
been tested at the Los Alamos National Laboratory and Stanford Research
Institute. D2Fusions management team is supported by a Scientific
Advisory Board that includes Dr. Brian Josephson (Cambridge Nobel
Laureate), Dr. Martin Fleischman (one of the two original proponents of
cold fusion in 1989) as well as Dr. Tom Clayton, Dr. Dale Tuggle and Dr.
Malcolm Fowler, from the Los Alamos National Laboratory.</font> <br><br>
<br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_861164953==.ALT--

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Subject: [Vo]:Imus attacks and cold fusion
Status: O
X-Status: 

Regarding the Imus attack against a college basketball team . . . You 
may think there is no connection to cold fusion, but there is. Here 
is a message I sent to a blogger:



This is a big deal to the victims because they are a small group of 
identifiable people. It is one thing for a "shock jock" to insult a 
whole race of people; it is quite another to insult 10 specific young 
women in college. As one of the women said, 'what if people believe 
this about me?' The part about having families means: How would you 
feel if someone on national radio called your daughter and nine of 
her friends 'whores'?

I expect those who say this does not matter have never been the 
objects of a personal attack in the mass media. They do not know how 
it feels to watch helplessly while a powerful person drags your 
reputation through the mud. As it happens, I do know. I work as a 
volunteer librarian for retired professors who do cold fusion 
physics. These include some distinguished people, such two Nobel 
laureates, the retired heads of the French AEC and the Indian AEC, 
and so on. They (and I) have been attacked and ridiculed by name, in 
national newspapers and magazines, hundreds of times. We are 
powerless to respond. For example, the Science Policy Administrator 
of the American Physical Society wrote in the New Scientist magazine:

"Sometimes the faithful don't completely turn off their reason. They 
become captive to a fantasy they hear in one ear, but listen for 
science with the other ear. So begins a deterioration that dims the 
wits but leaves a zealous heart beating - the result is a cult of 
fervent halfwits. Some of them believe the Universe is only 6000 
years old. Some sing praises to satellites. Some claim to fuse 
hydrogen in a jar.

Cloistered in southern France are the cold fusion team of Martin 
Fleischman and B. Stanley Pons. While every result and conclusion 
they publish meets with overwhelming scientific evidence to the 
contrary, they resolutely pursue their illusion of fusing hydrogen in 
a mason jar. . . .  And a few scientists, captivated by the team's 
fantasy and exile, pursue cold fusion with Branch Davidian intensity."

Such ad hominem attacks repeated over 18 years will hurt any 
scientist's morale, even a Nobel laureate's. It is impossible for me 
to imagine how black people must feel when they and their community 
have been subjected to such attacks for 400 years. It is even worse 
for them because they have done nothing, and they can do nothing to 
escape the attacks. The cold fusion scientists brought this upon 
themselves: they did research and published papers which they knew 
would invite attacks. A scientist can always retract, whereas a black 
person cannot stop being black. So anytime black people manage to 
shut up someone like Imus, I say kudos. I wish they would silence the 
"rap artists" and other black people who say even worse things.

Jed Rothwell
Librarian, LENR-CANR.org

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Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:42:29 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Larsen and Windom in the Chicago Tribune
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Steven Krivit wrote:

> 
> Loyal group chases cold-fusion dream
> Once touted as source of unlimited energy, cold fusion generates little
> interest today
> 
> By Jon Van
> Tribune staff reporter
> Published March 30, 2007
> 
<snip>
> 
> "In other traditions," said Beck, "the people in charge might say go get these
> guys and burn 'em at the stake. In science, they just get ignored."
>



Experiencing indifference is very frustrating but being ignored is even
worse. The seeds of persecution are sown when individuals
or groups are ignored, because to ignore means to _consciously_ shun.
 

Harry
  

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Apr 17 00:19:41 2007
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Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:19:25 +0300
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To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, viktorschaubergergroup@yahoogroups.com,
        ViktorSchauberger@yahoogroups.com
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Subject: [Vo]:super-fast water flow in pipes
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--
04/17/07 - Super Fast water flow in
Pipes<http://www.impactlab.com/modules.php?name=3DNews&file=3Darticle&sid=
=3D11359>
[image: KeelyNet]Scientists at the University of Kentucky have built tiny
pipes that move water 10,000 times as fast as the conventional laws of flui=
d
flow allow. Mimicking for the first time the seamless way fluids progress
through our cells. They've also found a way to control which molecules can
pass through the pipes, a discovery that could yield safer, more efficient
skin patches to deliver medicine into the body. The pipes are made of carbo=
n
nanotubes, thin sheets of graphite rolled into cylinders just seven
billionths of a meter in diameter. The scientists poured a polymer between
them to create a fine membrane that can embed 65 billion pipes per square
inch. Lead researcher Bruce Hinds attributes the tremendous speed of the
water flow (3.3 feet a second) to the nearly friction-free carbon nanotube
walls. To keep out unwanted molecules, Hinds placed chemical receptors at
the entrances to each tube, so that only those proteins that match the
receptors are allowed passage. =97 Gregory Mone

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<h4><br></h4><h4>--<br></h4><h4>04/17/07 - <a href=3D"http://www.impactlab.=
com/modules.php?name=3DNews&amp;file=3Darticle&amp;sid=3D11359">Super Fast =
water flow in Pipes</a><br><img src=3D"http://keelynet.com/waterfast.jpg" a=
lt=3D"KeelyNet" align=3D"left" hspace=3D"3" vspace=3D"3">
Scientists
at the University of Kentucky have built tiny pipes that move water
10,000 times as fast as the conventional laws of fluid flow allow.
Mimicking for the first time the seamless way fluids progress through
our cells. They've also found a way to control which molecules can pass
through the pipes, a discovery that could yield safer, more efficient
skin patches to deliver medicine into the body. The pipes are made of
carbon nanotubes, thin sheets of graphite rolled into cylinders just
seven billionths of a meter in diameter. The scientists poured a
polymer between them to create a fine membrane that can embed 65
billion pipes per square inch. Lead researcher Bruce Hinds attributes
the tremendous speed of the water flow (3.3 feet a second) to the
nearly friction-free carbon nanotube walls. To keep out unwanted
molecules, Hinds placed chemical receptors at the entrances to each
tube, so that only those proteins that match the receptors are allowed
passage. =97 Gregory Mone</h4>

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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Apr 17 20:28:16 2007
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Water Fuel,  pt. 153
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:28:03 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Tue, 17 Apr 2007 07:18:26 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>Subtitled: how many fish can we catch today?
>
>http://www.h2daily.com/news/water-replaces-gas-20070416-256-50.html
>
I suspect this was the original article:
http://www.register-mail.com/stories/041507/BIZ_BCTHB3AM.GID.shtml

(It's also easier to read).

Reading between the lines, it looks like Santilli's Magnegas (see also
http://www.magnegas.com/).
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation,
Cooperation (communism) provides the means.

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Apr 17 21:42:21 2007
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Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:42:14 +0300
From: "Esa Ruoho" <esaruoho@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:implosion in water
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<
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.implosion-ev.de%2Fhtml%2Fdies___das.html&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=fi&ie=UTF8>

enjoy..


On 17/04/07, thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
>
> R.C.Macaulay wrote:
>
> > This ongoing drama has all the ingredients of a Dime Box Saloon
> > discussion that is going to become heated before the night is over.
> > When you see the bartender take the mirror down from back of the bar ..
>
> Your post reminded me that you might like seeing the pictures on this
> page http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html . Too bad it's in
> German.
>
>
> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! --
> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
>
>


-- 
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&lt; <a href="http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.implosion-ev.de%2Fhtml%2Fdies___das.html&amp;langpair=de%7Cen&amp;hl=fi&amp;ie=UTF8">http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.implosion-ev.de%2Fhtml%2Fdies___das.html&amp;langpair=de%7Cen&amp;hl=fi&amp;ie=UTF8
</a> &gt;<br><br>enjoy..<br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 17/04/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">thomas malloy</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:temalloy@usfamily.net">temalloy@usfamily.net</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
R.C.Macaulay wrote:<br><br>&gt; This ongoing drama has all the ingredients of a Dime Box Saloon<br>&gt; discussion that is going to become heated before the night is over.<br>&gt; When you see the bartender take the mirror down from back of the bar ..
<br><br>Your post reminded me that you might like seeing the pictures on this<br>page <a href="http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html">http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html</a> . Too bad it&#39;s in<br>
German.<br><br><br>--- <a href="http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html">http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html</a> - $8.25/mo! -- <a href="http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html">http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html</a> - $19.99/mo! ---<br><br></blockquote>
</div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>$B!g(B

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Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:42:46 +0300
From: "Esa Ruoho" <esaruoho@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:implosion in water
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well, theres always http://www.williampye.com/ with his
vortex/whirlpool-influenced watersculptures, which are quite aesthetically
pleasing :)

On 17/04/07, Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote:
>
>
> I love the aesthetics of the whirlpool.
>
> Perhaps we will see more whirlpools -- instead of fountains -- in
> or around public buildings.
>
> Harry
>
>
>
> thomas malloy wrote:
>
>
> > Your post reminded me that you might like seeing the pictures on this
> > page http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html . Too bad it's in
> > German.
>
>


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well, theres always <a href="http://www.williampye.com/">http://www.williampye.com/</a> with his vortex/whirlpool-influenced watersculptures, which are quite aesthetically pleasing :)<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">
On 17/04/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Harry Veeder</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:eo200@freenet.carleton.ca">eo200@freenet.carleton.ca</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>I love the aesthetics of the whirlpool.<br><br>Perhaps we will see more whirlpools -- instead of fountains -- in<br>or around public buildings.<br><br>Harry<br><br><br><br>thomas malloy wrote:<br><br><br>&gt; Your post reminded me that you might like seeing the pictures on this
<br>&gt; page <a href="http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html">http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html</a> . Too bad it&#39;s in<br>&gt; German.<br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>$B!g(B

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Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:04:41 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Vo]:Prius Can't Pass the Test
Status: O
X-Status: 

The GA emissions test that is:

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/04/16/prius-cant-pass-georgia-emissions-test/

This is really funny!

Terry

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To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070416183736.100bd650@mail.newenergytimes.com> <C249AB65.17CFE%eo200@ncf.ca> <6.2.0.14.2.20070416212809.100a1a00@mail.newenergytimes.com> <001501c780f5$07c878f0$c905a8c0@xptower> <4624FEA6.2080304@usfamily.net> <538fa8f10704172142l13546fd5i50cd4c16ab994c3c@mail.gmail.com>
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Howdy Esa,

The most interesting part of the link is the attention and interest =
shown by the Germans for VS work and the amount of effort directed =
toward adapting the ideas to applications. Nobody seems to be hiding =
technical advances in implosion technology. Nobody is ridiculing and =
trashing the work.

 http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html

The same is not true of LENR where lines and swords drawn.  err.. ummm.. =
machetes and beer bottles at the Dime Box saloon.

Richard
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-2022-jp">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16414" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Howdy Esa,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>The most interesting part of the link =
is the=20
attention and interest shown by the Germans for VS work and the amount =
of effort=20
directed toward adapting the ideas to applications. Nobody seems to be =
hiding=20
technical advances in implosion technology. Nobody is ridiculing and =
trashing=20
the work.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2><FONT size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT><A=20
href=3D"http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html"><FONT=20
size=3D3>http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html</FONT></A></FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>The same is not true of LENR where =
lines and=20
swords drawn.&nbsp; err.. ummm.. machetes and beer bottles at the Dime =
Box=20
saloon.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Richard</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Apr 18 10:37:54 2007
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erm.. www.implosion-ev.de  is run by Klaus Rauber - who is the current
person publishing the  few-issues-a-year Implosion-magazine, which was
originally set up by various people, and i believe Walter Schauberger was
involved in the setting-up of the magazine. it has run up to over 150
issues, and is the main repository for Viktor's original writings, and shows
various developments by other people, including the spiraling pipes and
repulsine-tests.. in fact, i was very glad to note that Klaus finally took
the time to do a website which has quite a bit of information -- even
mentioning, offhandedly that the Klimator and the Repulsine also had a
catalytic layer of various minerals - the mixture of which is not very known
-- which some other people on VSG have dubbed the "Schauberger Cement" .
implosion-ev.de for now seems to be the largest and the best archive of
viktor schauberger related material -- and of course it would only be in the
german language. http://www.frankgermano.com/ is another -- for more
historical issues and for what frank d. germano has dug up.

it is a really sad  state of affairs that PAX Scientific are in no way
interested in Coanda / Schauberger - and this stuff just doesnt proceed with
the quickness that it could.

the trashing of the work of VS is in very much other websites -
skeptics/debunkers/ people looking for a good hoax to trample on..  not in
the implosion/vortex-"scene", which implosion-ev.de is very much a part of.
.. ..


On 18/04/07, R.C.Macaulay <walhalla@cvtv.net> wrote:
>
>  Howdy Esa,
>
> The most interesting part of the link is the attention and interest shown
> by the Germans for VS work and the amount of effort directed toward adapting
> the ideas to applications. Nobody seems to be hiding technical advances in
> implosion technology. Nobody is ridiculing and trashing the work.
>
>  http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html
>
> The same is not true of LENR where lines and swords drawn.  err.. ummm..
> machetes and beer bottles at the Dime Box saloon.
>
> Richard
>



-- 
$B!g(B

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erm.. <a href="http://www.implosion-ev.de">www.implosion-ev.de</a>&nbsp; is run by Klaus Rauber - who is the current person publishing the&nbsp; few-issues-a-year Implosion-magazine, which was originally set up by various people, and i believe Walter Schauberger was involved in the setting-up of the magazine. it has run up to over 150 issues, and is the main repository for Viktor&#39;s original writings, and shows various developments by other people, including the spiraling pipes and&nbsp; repulsine-tests.. in fact, i was very glad to note that Klaus finally took the time to do a website which has quite a bit of information -- even mentioning, offhandedly that the Klimator and the Repulsine also had a catalytic layer of various minerals - the mixture of which is not very known -- which some other people on VSG have dubbed the &quot;Schauberger Cement&quot; .
<br><a href="http://implosion-ev.de">implosion-ev.de</a> for now seems to be the largest and the best archive of viktor schauberger related material -- and of course it would only be in the german language. <a href="http://www.frankgermano.com/">
http://www.frankgermano.com/</a> is another -- for more historical issues and for what frank d. germano has dug up.<br><br>it is a really sad&nbsp; state of affairs that PAX Scientific are in no way interested in Coanda / Schauberger - and this stuff just doesnt proceed with the quickness that it could.
<br><br>the trashing of the work of VS is in very much other websites - skeptics/debunkers/ people looking for a good hoax to trample on..&nbsp; not in the implosion/vortex-&quot;scene&quot;, which <a href="http://implosion-ev.de">
implosion-ev.de</a> is very much a part of. .. ..<br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 18/04/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">R.C.Macaulay</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:walhalla@cvtv.net">walhalla@cvtv.net</a>&gt; wrote:
</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">





<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Howdy Esa,</font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">The most interesting part of the link is the 
attention and interest shown by the Germans for VS work and the amount of effort 
directed toward adapting the ideas to applications. Nobody seems to be hiding 
technical advances in implosion technology. Nobody is ridiculing and trashing 
the work.</font></div><span class="q">
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2"><font size="3">&nbsp;</font><a href="http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"><font size="3">http://www.implosion-ev.de/html/dies___das.html
</font></a></font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div></span>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">The same is not true of LENR where lines and 
swords drawn.&nbsp; err.. ummm.. machetes and beer bottles at the Dime Box 
saloon.</font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Richard</font></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>$B!g(B

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Subject: [Vo]:Geodetic Proven
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By Gravity Probe B:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6561391.stm

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Subject: [Vo]:CF creeping into the corpus?
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Here is a link at Case Western Reserve University, Ernest B. Yeager 
Center for Electrochemical Sciences (http://electrochem.cwru.edu/). See:

http://electrochem.case.edu/estir/inet.htm


Electrochemical Science and Technology Information Resource (ESTIR)

Scroll down to:

Inorganic electrolytic processes

Scroll a little more:

Tritium, electrolytic production (E. Storms and C. Talcott, LBNL) 
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEelectrolyt.pdf

- Jed

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<html>
<body>
Here is a link at Case Western Reserve University, Ernest B. Yeager
Center for Electrochemical Sciences
(<a href="http://electrochem.cwru.edu/" eudora="autourl">
http://electrochem.cwru.edu/</a>). See:<br><br>
<a href="http://electrochem.case.edu/estir/inet.htm" eudora="autourl">
http://electrochem.case.edu/estir/inet.htm</a><br><br>
<h1><b>E</b>lectrochemical <b>S</b>cience and <b>T</b>echnology
<b>I</b>nformation <b>R</b>esource (ESTIR)</h1>Scroll down to:<br><br>
<i>Inorganic electrolytic processes</i> <br><br>
Scroll a little more:<br><br>
Tritium, electrolytic production (E. Storms and C. Talcott, LBNL)
<a href="http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEelectrolyt.pdf" eudora="autourl">
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEelectrolyt.pdf<br><br>
</a>- Jed<br>
</body>
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Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:39:45 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Geodetic Proven
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This "experiment" is really a comparison of two calculating machines.

The results generated by a $500 million Machine B (consisting of the probe
AND the Earth) are compared to the results generated by machine A
(consisting of some PhD's, desktop computers and General Relativity).

Unless one believes nature is a calculating machine it is not really a
significant experiment.

Harry

Terry Blanton wrote:

> By Gravity Probe B:
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6561391.stm
> 

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From: "Michel Jullian" <mj@exbang.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:Geodetic Proven
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 22:03:37 +0200
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> Unless one believes nature is a calculating machine

This is more or less the underlying assumption in physics isn't it? A =
calculating machine whose algorithms we are trying to guess, and which =
hopefully we will never master completely (or life would become very =
boring).

Michel (Thanks to Bill Beaty for inviting me back)

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Harry Veeder" <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Geodetic Proven


> This "experiment" is really a comparison of two calculating machines.
>=20
> The results generated by a $500 million Machine B (consisting of the =
probe
> AND the Earth) are compared to the results generated by machine A
> (consisting of some PhD's, desktop computers and General Relativity).
>=20
> Unless one believes nature is a calculating machine it is not really a
> significant experiment.
>=20
> Harry
>=20
> Terry Blanton wrote:
>=20
>> By Gravity Probe B:
>>=20
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6561391.stm
>>=20
>

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Apr 18 19:00:35 2007
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References: <6.2.0.14.2.20070416183736.100bd650@mail.newenergytimes.com> <C249AB65.17CFE%eo200@ncf.ca> <6.2.0.14.2.20070416212809.100a1a00@mail.newenergytimes.com> <001501c780f5$07c878f0$c905a8c0@xptower> <4624FEA6.2080304@usfamily.net> <538fa8f10704172142l13546fd5i50cd4c16ab994c3c@mail.gmail.com> <002201c781b5$5a1640e0$c905a8c0@xptower> <538fa8f10704181037l72719447x83737b63622bc78e@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:implosion in water
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 21:00:36 -0500
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Esa wrote..

it is a really sad  state of affairs that PAX Scientific are in no way =
interested in Coanda / Schauberger - and this stuff just doesnt proceed =
with the quickness that it could.=20


Howdy Esa,

Pax is in business to patent ideas and liscense for profit, not =
necessarily to make anything. They have done a good job of coming up =
with some innovative prop designs. Another outfit in Australia was =
developing a "Coanda Effect" prop but they bit the dust under too much =
IPO money, fasr boats, faster cars and even faster women.

Richard
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-2022-jp">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16414" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Esa wrote..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>it is a really sad&nbsp; state of affairs that PAX Scientific are =
in no way=20
interested in Coanda / Schauberger - and this stuff just doesnt proceed =
with the=20
quickness that it could. <BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Howdy Esa,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Pax is in business to patent ideas =
and liscense=20
for profit, not necessarily to make anything. They have done a good job =
of=20
coming up with some innovative prop designs. Another outfit in Australia =
was=20
developing a "Coanda Effect" prop but they bit the dust under too much =
IPO=20
money, fasr boats, faster cars and even faster women.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2>Richard</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Apr 18 20:03:42 2007
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Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:01:43 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Geodetic Proven
In-reply-to: <09b201c781f4$b8fed420$3800a8c0@zothan>
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I would call it a presumption.

Harry

Michel Jullian wrote:

>> Unless one believes nature is a calculating machine
> 
> This is more or less the underlying assumption in physics isn't it? A
> calculating machine whose algorithms we are trying to guess, and which
> hopefully we will never master completely (or life would become very boring).
> 
> Michel (Thanks to Bill Beaty for inviting me back)
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Harry Veeder" <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca>
> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 10:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Geodetic Proven
> 
> 
>> This "experiment" is really a comparison of two calculating machines.
>> 
>> The results generated by a $500 million Machine B (consisting of the probe
>> AND the Earth) are compared to the results generated by machine A
>> (consisting of some PhD's, desktop computers and General Relativity).
>> 
>> Unless one believes nature is a calculating machine it is not really a
>> significant experiment.
>> 
>> Harry
>> 
>> Terry Blanton wrote:
>> 
>>> By Gravity Probe B:
>>> 
>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6561391.stm
>>> 
>> 
> 

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Subject: [Vo]:The Gravimagnetic Isomorphism
Status: O
X-Status: 

A consolidated Gravimagnetic Isomorphism article is now available,  
and much updated, though it will probably remain in draft stages for  
some time.

http://mtaonline.net/~hheffner/FullGravimag.pdf

Horace Heffner

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Interesting comment that the scientists attending the conference had =
difficulty understanding some of the science presented.

http://www.futurefoundation.org:80/=20
Richard

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had=20
difficulty understanding some of the science presented.</DIV>
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:80/</A>=20
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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Apr 19 10:17:18 2007
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Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:16:27 -0700
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Subject: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.
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I'm surprised nobody at Vo picked up on climate scientist Brenda Ekwurzel, PhD. 
  guest on Coast To Coast AM show last Saturday -->

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2007/04/14.html

Leading climate science researcher Brenda Ekwurzel, PhD. announced the just 
recent overwhelming evidence from compiled data that the major cause of global 
warming is due to humanity. IMHO Brenda was impressive and scientific even 
though I didn't understand have the scientific terminology.

Personally I think it's a combination of Sun and humanity, but I've always 
leaned toward humanity as being the major cause.

Regards,
Paul Lowrance

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Subject: [Vo]:Quantum Bogodynamics
Status: RO
X-Status: 

The term "bogon" is computer hacker jargon, where it is defined as the 
quantum of "bogosity", which itself is the property of being bogus.

"Bogus" in this case refers as much to point of "origin" as to ultimate 
truthfulness. Many seemingly bogus facts turn out to be true. We can 
equate the value of certain information with its origin, however, at 
least for the purpose of convenience in the overload of the information 
age - and this saves a lot of time without too many oversights - usually.

For instance, 98-99% of everything MIT sez about physics is either true, 
arguably true, or not-yet-disproven (or generally innocuous). When they 
blow it, they really blow it. Even the pompous turkey - Bob Park, hated 
as he may be in a few circles (LENR and alternative nutrition/ healing) 
is correct at least 90% of the time. As long as he is belittling someone 
else's scared cow, let him enjoy his soap-box and petty-pomposity. He 
does provide another "filter" of sorts ... yet we all need to have our 
own personal bogon filters, rather than rely on the park-people.

On Vo, we probably have to filter out more bogosity than any other 
forum. Not ironically, alternative-energy attracts bogosity like an NIB 
magnet attracts iron. "Apparent Bogosity" however, is not all bad, in 
one sense. It may have uncredentialed origins, and it may chafe at the 
halter of mainstream control (and funding) but its 'rarity of 
factuality' is balanced firmly by the extreme value of the small truth 
which goes against the grain. That is the problem.

In computerese - the "Bogon" is an informal name for an IP packet on the 
Internet which claims to be from the IP address space which is reserved, 
but not yet allocated by the net-cops (Internet Assigned Numbers 
Authority) to an accountable entity. IOW: the bogon is not credentialed. 
The areas of unallocated address space are called "bogon space" but that 
can be temporary, pending a $mall $um, and you emptor, so to speak - 
must constantly recheck for crednetials. There is a direct corollary to 
this part of information science and other pursuits. All science is 
ultimately "information science".

Take so-called "free energy" for instance. 99% of everything which 
claims to be free energy is bogus, and its point of origin is usually a 
"tell." No problemo ... almost. We are all aware of certain "tells" like 
the lab was raided and the machine confiscated. Yet it is the < 1% which 
will eventually make any tiresome pursuit worthwhile, even wading 
through tons of huckster-smuckster - and this slim glimmer of ultimate 
value is why we tune into to forums like this one (and some of much 
higher average-bogosity).

In the meantime, we must make do with heavy filtering, but the biggest 
problem overall is that lack of funding for the all important *1%* 
which is the uncredentialed information which is either true or pointing 
in that direction, but anti-mainstream. This hidden truth is the very 
spark and impetus of advancing civilization - the forbidden fruit - the 
one percent. If we must fund the whole bogus 99% it is still worthwhile, 
but this can only be done when we are not funding war.

That is where the "gift economy" can come in. Free enterprise without a 
gift economy stinks. More on that later.

After all, when you look for the only things in life that matter - it's 
all about information. Dis-information is not always malicious, and it 
is not always spam (or even an annoyance) and it is not always 
counter-productive. Consider it as humor, if you like.

Like most everything in life - bogosity is a ultimately an ongoing 
balance of pluses and minuses. The "cutting edge" easily becomes the 
"bleeding edge" with a single misstep.

As Kurt Vonnegut was wont to say - "So it goes"

Jones

(if you were thinking Linda Ellerby, you should be reading more and 
watching less TV)






From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Apr 19 14:33:55 2007
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Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 17:33:42 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Quantum Bogodynamics
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On 4/19/07, Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:

> Like most everything in life - bogosity is a ultimately an ongoing
> balance of pluses and minuses. The "cutting edge" easily becomes the
> "bleeding edge" with a single misstep.

You are on the MIS line, Jones.

> As Kurt Vonnegut was wont to say - "So it goes"

"Let it be written."

Terry

PS  The pyramid levers are being applied to the BFM non-shipment.

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On 4/19/07, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote:

> You are on the MIS line, Jones.

Men in Stetsons.

T

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Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 01:14:40 -0500
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Paul Lowrance wrote:

> I'm surprised nobody at Vo picked up on climate scientist Brenda 
> Ekwurzel, PhD.  guest on Coast To Coast AM show last Saturday -- 

One sided propaganda, she was too busy beating the drum on human caused 
warming to talk about anything else. She ignored the issue of the Sun's 
increased irradiance. Also the observation that temperature increases, 
then atmospheric CO2 increases. Art Bell, true believer that he is, ate 
it all up.

OTOH, C to C AM has Richard Hoagland as a guest. he makes the case that 
the increased irradiance and volcanic activity are both related to 
changes in something, the Aether perhaps? www.enterprisemission.com has 
quite a section on hyperdimensional physics. 


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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-
 Dear vos.,
On reading the texts from Vo.... I offer a "slice" of text, below:

 NB:  Comment will be inserted in text as [comment-note]

Here we go.....--->

------------
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=49911&page=9#Item_35

[Q.] Sounds promising - if HK made the visit he could at last state the
conditions he observed the device under. He wouldn't have to state "it
appears to work but I don't know how."

[A.] The above tests would of course not address the issue of domain changes
or heat interaction - but from a pure skeptics standpoint it does demo a
technology, because as far as I know, no one has ever found a way to
mechanically drain heat using magnets from the environment


  NB:  Please read up on magnetic cooling from 1950 to present...
          AND  Direct Energy Conversion  texts....

 or to mechanically make use of the domain energy of a magnet. But these
questions take a long time to answer (hence the Jury) - at a minimum the
position would be that something is happening - it would take a day!!!!

(March 3, 2007)

   No time is required.... other than the reader do  the ..or at least Some
of the basic
investigation... Hmm?


             Herma

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<div>-</div>
<div>&nbsp;Dear vos.,</div>
<div>On reading the texts from Vo.... I offer a &quot;slice&quot; of text, below:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;NB:&nbsp; Comment will be inserted in text as [comment-note]</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Here we go.....---&gt;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>------------<br><a href="http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=49911&amp;page=9#Item_35">http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=49911&amp;page=9#Item_35</a> <br><br>[Q.] Sounds promising - if HK made the visit he could at last state the conditions he observed the device under. He wouldn&#39;t have to state &quot;it appears to work but I don&#39;t know how.&quot;
<br><br>[A.] The above tests would of course not address the issue of domain changes or heat interaction - but from a pure skeptics standpoint it does demo a technology, because as far as I know, no one has ever found a way to mechanically drain heat using magnets from the environment
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp; NB:&nbsp; Please read up on magnetic cooling from 1950 to present...</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; AND&nbsp; Direct Energy Conversion&nbsp; texts....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;or to mechanically make use of the domain energy of a magnet. But these questions take a long time to answer (hence the Jury) - at a minimum the position would be that something is happening - it would take a day!!!!
<br><br>(March 3, 2007)<br>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; No time is required.... other than the reader&nbsp;do &nbsp;the ..or at least Some of the basic&nbsp;</div>
<div>investigation... Hmm?&nbsp;&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Herma</div>

------=_Part_73021_21302276.1177055857938--

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    Dear vo,



   Read first.... THEN let us know what can and has been...



    PLEASE....  HMM???
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ion%26page%3D1>
 AA Faculty: Reiner Decher, *Direct Energy
Conversion*<http://www.aa.washington.edu/faculty/decher/books/direct_energy=
_conv.html>
*Direct energy conversion* is concerned with the transformation of
*energy*to electrical power
*...* Works by *Angrist* (Ref. 1-8), Soo (Ref. 5-1), Sutton (Ref. *...*
www.aa.washington.edu/faculty/decher/books/*direct*_*energy*_conv.html - 11=
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 AAE 536 Advanced *Energy Conversion* for Aerospace Systems
*...*<https://engineering.purdue.edu/AAE/Academics/Courses/Descriptions/AAE=
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*Direct Energy Conversion*, *Angrist*, Allyn and Bacon, 1982. Note: These
are out of print texts that will be available in the bookstore). *...*
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------=_Part_73041_2701498.1177056046038
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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<div>
<div class=3D"g">
<h2 class=3D"r">&nbsp;&nbsp; Dear vo,</h2>
<p class=3D"r">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"r">&nbsp;&nbsp; Read first.... THEN let us know what can and ha=
s been...</p>
<p class=3D"r">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"r">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PLEASE....&nbsp; HMM???</p>
<h2 class=3D"r">&nbsp;</h2>
<h2 class=3D"r">&nbsp;</h2>
<h2 class=3D"r">&nbsp;</h2>
<h2 class=3D"r"><a class=3D"l" onmousedown=3D"return clk(this.href,&#39;&#3=
9;,&#39;&#39;,&#39;res&#39;,&#39;1&#39;,&#39;&amp;sig2=3DOe_P3ND4wRoj63l61F=
mTcg&#39;)" href=3D"http://www.amazon.com/conversion-mechanical-engineering=
-applied-mechanics/dp/0205055818">
Amazon.com: <b>Direct energy conversion</b> (Allyn and Bacon series in <b>.=
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td class=3D"j"><font size=3D"-1"><a href=3D"http://Amazon.com">Amazon.com<=
/a>: <b>Direct energy conversion</b> (Allyn and Bacon series in mechanical =
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ww.amazon.com/">www.amazon.com/</a><b>conversion</b>-mechanical-engineering=
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<font color=3D"#7777cc">Cached</font></a> - <a class=3D"fl" href=3D"http://=
www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Drelated:www.amazon.com/conversion-mec=
hanical-engineering-applied-mechanics/dp/0205055818"><font color=3D"#7777cc=
">Similar pages
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<h2 class=3D"r"><a class=3D"l" onmousedown=3D"return clk(this.href,&#39;&#3=
9;,&#39;&#39;,&#39;res&#39;,&#39;2&#39;,&#39;&amp;sig2=3DGKkot8sIRs_zQVo3EP=
68YA&#39;)" href=3D"http://www.abebooks.com/sm-search-0205055818-direct-ene=
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0205055818: <b>Direct Energy Conversion</b> - AbeBooks.com</a></h2>
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td class=3D"j"><font size=3D"-1"><b>Direct energy conversion</b> (Allyn an=
d Bacon series in mechanical engineering and applied mechanics) (ISBN: 0205=
055818) Stanley W <b>Angrist</b> <b>...</b><br><span class=3D"a"><font colo=
r=3D"#008000">
<a href=3D"http://www.abebooks.com/sm-search-0205055818-">www.abebooks.com/=
sm-search-0205055818-</a><b>direct</b>-<b>energy</b>-<b>conversion</b>--is!=
0205055818.html - 49k - </font></span><a class=3D"fl" href=3D"http://64.233=
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8-direct-energy-conversion--is!0205055818.html+direct+energy+conversion+ang=
rist&amp;hl=3Den&amp;ct=3Dclnk&amp;cd=3D2&amp;gl=3Dus">
<font color=3D"#7777cc">Cached</font></a> - <a class=3D"fl" href=3D"http://=
www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Drelated:www.abebooks.com/sm-search-02=
05055818-direct-energy-conversion--is!0205055818.html"><font color=3D"#7777=
cc">Similar pages
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<h2 class=3D"r"><a class=3D"l" onmousedown=3D"return clk(this.href,&#39;&#3=
9;,&#39;&#39;,&#39;res&#39;,&#39;3&#39;,&#39;&amp;sig2=3DDqNjE1l_qmdUjjihmB=
owMQ&#39;)" href=3D"http://www.amazon.com/Conversion-Mechanical-Engineering=
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Amazon.com: <b>Direct Energy Conversion</b> (Series in Mechanical <b>...</b=
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td class=3D"j"><font size=3D"-1"><a href=3D"http://Amazon.com">Amazon.com<=
/a>: <b>Direct Energy Conversion</b> (Series in Mechanical Engineering &amp=
; Applied Mechanics): Books: Stanley W. <b>Angrist</b> by Stanley W. <b>Ang=
rist
</b>.<br><span class=3D"a"><font color=3D"#008000"><a href=3D"http://www.am=
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ersion+angrist&amp;hl=3Den&amp;ct=3Dclnk&amp;cd=3D3&amp;gl=3Dus">
<font color=3D"#7777cc">Cached</font></a> - <a class=3D"fl" href=3D"http://=
www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Drelated:www.amazon.com/Conversion-Mec=
hanical-Engineering-Applied-Mechanics/dp/0205077587"><font color=3D"#7777cc=
">Similar pages
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<div class=3D"g">
<h2 class=3D"r"><a class=3D"l" onmousedown=3D"return clk(this.href,&#39;&#3=
9;,&#39;&#39;,&#39;res&#39;,&#39;4&#39;,&#39;&amp;sig2=3DlSoN-22JaI9xH0fFMi=
qjeQ&#39;)" href=3D"http://www.abebooks.com/sm-search-0205077587-direct-ene=
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0205077587: <b>Direct Energy Conversion</b> - AbeBooks.com</a></h2>
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td class=3D"j"><font size=3D"-1"><b>Direct Energy Conversion</b> (Series i=
n Mechanical Engineering &amp; Applied Mechanics) (ISBN: 0205077587) Stanle=
y W. <b>Angrist</b>. Bookseller: OwlsBooks <b>...</b><br><span class=3D"a">=
<font color=3D"#008000">
<a href=3D"http://www.abebooks.com/sm-search-0205077587-">www.abebooks.com/=
sm-search-0205077587-</a><b>direct</b>-<b>energy</b>-<b>conversion</b>--is!=
0205077587.html - 28k - </font></span><a class=3D"fl" href=3D"http://64.233=
.167.104/search?q=3Dcache:6-ga6zfX2GAJ:www.abebooks.com/sm-search-020507758=
7-direct-energy-conversion--is!0205077587.html+direct+energy+conversion+ang=
rist&amp;hl=3Den&amp;ct=3Dclnk&amp;cd=3D4&amp;gl=3Dus">
<font color=3D"#7777cc">Cached</font></a> - <a class=3D"fl" href=3D"http://=
www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Drelated:www.abebooks.com/sm-search-02=
05077587-direct-energy-conversion--is!0205077587.html"><font color=3D"#7777=
cc">Similar pages
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<h2 class=3D"r"><a class=3D"l" onmousedown=3D"return clk(this.href,&#39;&#3=
9;,&#39;&#39;,&#39;res&#39;,&#39;5&#39;,&#39;&amp;sig2=3DmtRIv_hvLmOmNwn2Z0=
hrtQ&#39;)" href=3D"http://www.allbookstores.com/Science/Energy/Direct_Ener=
gy_Conversion.html">
SCIENCE : <b>Energy</b> : <b>Direct energy conversion</b> books, find the l=
owest <b>...</b></a></h2>
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td class=3D"j"><font size=3D"-1"><b>Direct Energy Conversion</b> : Fundame=
ntals of Electric Power Production cover <b>Direct</b> <b>Energy Conversion=
</b> <b>...</b> <b>Direct Energy Conversion</b> by Stanley W. <b>Angrist</b=
>
 <b>...</b><br><span class=3D"a"><font color=3D"#008000"><a href=3D"http://=
www.allbookstores.com/Science/">www.allbookstores.com/Science/</a><b>Energy=
</b>/<b>Direct</b>_<b>Energy</b>_<b>Conversion</b>.html - 29k - </font></sp=
an>
<a class=3D"fl" href=3D"http://64.233.167.104/search?q=3Dcache:6v5NMzPCnN4J=
:www.allbookstores.com/Science/Energy/Direct_Energy_Conversion.html+direct+=
energy+conversion+angrist&amp;hl=3Den&amp;ct=3Dclnk&amp;cd=3D5&amp;gl=3Dus"=
><font color=3D"#7777cc">
Cached</font></a> - <a class=3D"fl" href=3D"http://www.google.com/search?hl=
=3Den&amp;q=3Drelated:www.allbookstores.com/Science/Energy/Direct_Energy_Co=
nversion.html"><font color=3D"#7777cc">Similar pages</font></a></font></td>=
</tr></tbody>
</table></div>
<div class=3D"g">
<h2 class=3D"r"><a class=3D"l" onmousedown=3D"return clk(this.href,&#39;&#3=
9;,&#39;&#39;,&#39;res&#39;,&#39;6&#39;,&#39;&amp;sig2=3DwvdduAEv0yN5enNlsJ=
gLwg&#39;)" href=3D"http://www.amazon.ca/Direct-Energy-Conversion-Stanley-A=
ngrist/dp/0205077587">
Amazon.ca: <b>Direct Energy Conversion</b>: Books: Stanley W. <b>Angrist</b=
></a></h2>
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td class=3D"j"><font size=3D"-1"><a href=3D"http://Amazon.ca">Amazon.ca</a=
>: <b>Direct Energy Conversion</b>: Books: Stanley W. <b>Angrist</b> by Sta=
nley W. <b>Angrist</b>.<br><span class=3D"a"><font color=3D"#008000"><a hre=
f=3D"http://www.amazon.ca/">
www.amazon.ca/</a><b>Direct</b>-<b>Energy</b>-<b>Conversion</b>-Stanley-<b>=
Angrist</b>/dp/0205077587 - 44k - </font></span><a class=3D"fl" href=3D"htt=
p://64.233.167.104/search?q=3Dcache:CmhQTUL-g_MJ:www.amazon.ca/Direct-Energ=
y-Conversion-Stanley-Angrist/dp/0205077587+direct+energy+conversion+angrist=
&amp;hl=3Den&amp;ct=3Dclnk&amp;cd=3D6&amp;gl=3Dus">
<font color=3D"#7777cc">Cached</font></a> - <a class=3D"fl" href=3D"http://=
www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Drelated:www.amazon.ca/Direct-Energy-C=
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ges</font>
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<div class=3D"g">
<h2 class=3D"r"><a class=3D"l" onmousedown=3D"return clk(&#39;http://www.am=
azon.ca/s?ie=3DUTF8&amp;index=3Dbooks-ca&amp;field-keywords=3DDirect%20ener=
gy%20conversion&amp;page=3D1&#39;,&#39;&#39;,&#39;&#39;,&#39;res&#39;,&#39;=
7&#39;,&#39;&amp;sig2=3DqxEjLhvy4tPSMJE7Y_20FQ&#39;)" href=3D"http://www.am=
azon.ca/s?ie=3DUTF8&amp;index=3Dbooks-ca&amp;field-keywords=3DDirect%20ener=
gy%20conversion&amp;page=3D1">
Amazon.ca: <b>Direct energy conversion</b>: Books</a></h2>
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td class=3D"j"><font size=3D"-1"><b>Direct Energy Conversion</b> : Fundame=
ntals of Electric Power Production <b>...</b> <b>Direct Energy Conversion</=
b> by Stanley W. <b>Angrist</b> (Hardcover - May 1982). Out of stock <b>...
</b><br><span class=3D"a"><font color=3D"#008000"><a href=3D"http://www.ama=
zon.ca/s?ie=3DUTF8&amp;index=3Dbooks-ca&amp;field-keywords=3D">www.amazon.c=
a/s?ie=3DUTF8&amp;index=3Dbooks-ca&amp;field-keywords=3D</a><b>Direct</b>%2=
0<b>energy</b>
%20<b>conversion</b>&amp;page=3D1 - 91k - </font></span><a class=3D"fl" hre=
f=3D"http://64.233.167.104/search?q=3Dcache:DIuTuM_htSEJ:www.amazon.ca/s%3F=
ie%3DUTF8%26index%3Dbooks-ca%26field-keywords%3DDirect%2520energy%2520conve=
rsion%26page%3D1+direct+energy+conversion+angrist&amp;hl=3Den&amp;ct=3Dclnk=
&amp;cd=3D7&amp;gl=3Dus">
<font color=3D"#7777cc">Cached</font></a> - <a class=3D"fl" href=3D"http://=
www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Drelated:www.amazon.ca/s%3Fie%3DUTF8%2=
6index%3Dbooks-ca%26field-keywords%3DDirect%2520energy%2520conversion%26pag=
e%3D1">
<font color=3D"#7777cc">Similar pages</font></a></font></td></tr></tbody></=
table></div>
<div class=3D"g">
<h2 class=3D"r"><a class=3D"l" onmousedown=3D"return clk(this.href,&#39;&#3=
9;,&#39;&#39;,&#39;res&#39;,&#39;8&#39;,&#39;&amp;sig2=3DncybjlZj8206E5sXt9=
djGg&#39;)" href=3D"http://www.aa.washington.edu/faculty/decher/books/direc=
t_energy_conv.html">
AA Faculty: Reiner Decher, <b>Direct Energy Conversion</b></a></h2>
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td class=3D"j"><font size=3D"-1"><b>Direct energy conversion</b> is concer=
ned with the transformation of <b>energy</b> to electrical power <b>...</b>=
 Works by <b>Angrist</b> (Ref. 1-8), Soo (Ref. 5-1), Sutton (Ref. <b>...</b=
>
<br><span class=3D"a"><font color=3D"#008000"><a href=3D"http://www.aa.wash=
ington.edu/faculty/decher/books/">www.aa.washington.edu/faculty/decher/book=
s/</a><b>direct</b>_<b>energy</b>_conv.html - 11k - </font></span><a class=
=3D"fl" href=3D"http://64.233.167.104/search?q=3Dcache:ttWdidd4RvkJ:www.aa.=
washington.edu/faculty/decher/books/direct_energy_conv.html+direct+energy+c=
onversion+angrist&amp;hl=3Den&amp;ct=3Dclnk&amp;cd=3D8&amp;gl=3Dus">
<font color=3D"#7777cc">Cached</font></a> - <a class=3D"fl" href=3D"http://=
www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Drelated:www.aa.washington.edu/faculty=
/decher/books/direct_energy_conv.html"><font color=3D"#7777cc">Similar page=
s</font>
</a></font></td></tr></tbody></table></div>
<div class=3D"g">
<h2 class=3D"r"><a class=3D"l" onmousedown=3D"return clk(this.href,&#39;&#3=
9;,&#39;&#39;,&#39;res&#39;,&#39;9&#39;,&#39;&amp;sig2=3DNpA_UBrzPs5-G-3-uT=
cCpg&#39;)" href=3D"https://engineering.purdue.edu/AAE/Academics/Courses/De=
scriptions/AAE536">
AAE 536 Advanced <b>Energy Conversion</b> for Aerospace Systems <b>...</b><=
/a></h2>
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td class=3D"j"><font size=3D"-1"><b>Direct Energy Conversion</b>, <b>Angri=
st</b>, Allyn and Bacon, 1982. Note: These are out of print texts that will=
 be available in the bookstore). <b>...</b><br><span class=3D"a"><font colo=
r=3D"#008000">
<a href=3D"https://engineering.purdue.edu/AAE/Academics/Courses/Description=
s/AAE536">https://engineering.purdue.edu/AAE/Academics/Courses/Descriptions=
/AAE536</a> - 23k - </font></span><a class=3D"fl" href=3D"http://64.233.167=
.104/search?q=3Dcache:qpqN8NrAgJQJ:https://engineering.purdue.edu/AAE/Acade=
mics/Courses/Descriptions/AAE536+direct+energy+conversion+angrist&amp;hl=3D=
en&amp;ct=3Dclnk&amp;cd=3D9&amp;gl=3Dus">
<font color=3D"#7777cc">Cached</font></a> - <a class=3D"fl" href=3D"http://=
www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&amp;q=3Drelated:https://engineering.purdue.ed=
u/AAE/Academics/Courses/Descriptions/AAE536"><font color=3D"#7777cc">Simila=
r pages</font>
</a></font></td></tr></tbody></table></div>
<div class=3D"g">
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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Apr 20 01:28:38 2007
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From: "Michel Jullian" <mj@exbang.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
References: <001801c78282$e256fee0$c905a8c0@xptower> <4627A3EB.8070505@gmail.com> <46285A50.8040004@usfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 10:28:25 +0200
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It seems to me that whatever the causes of GW, if we want a remedy we =
will have to take care of it.

Jed mentioned orbiting parasols once, I then understood he was talking =
about Earth orbits so I thought the area would have to be impractically =
large, but he may have been thinking about Sun orbits which could lower =
area requirements dramatically. But then some propulsion means would be =
required to make up for the difference between solar gravity and =
centrifugal force at that distance and speed (the smaller the orbit, the =
smaller the natural orbiting period, so the parasol wouldn't stay =
naturally aligned with the sun).

I am wondering if a flotilla of solar sails couldn't be made to orbit =
the sun at some point of the Sun-Earth line, with their mostly =
sun-oriented reflecting surface acting both as a propulsion means, and =
as a parasol.

Does anybody know at which point of the Sun-Earth line a unit parasol =
area would be most efficient?

Michel

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy@usfamily.net>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually =
based.


> Paul Lowrance wrote:
>=20
>> I'm surprised nobody at Vo picked up on climate scientist Brenda=20
>> Ekwurzel, PhD.  guest on Coast To Coast AM show last Saturday --=20
>=20
> One sided propaganda, she was too busy beating the drum on human =
caused=20
> warming to talk about anything else. She ignored the issue of the =
Sun's=20
> increased irradiance. Also the observation that temperature increases, =

> then atmospheric CO2 increases. Art Bell, true believer that he is, =
ate=20
> it all up.
>=20
> OTOH, C to C AM has Richard Hoagland as a guest. he makes the case =
that=20
> the increased irradiance and volcanic activity are both related to=20
> changes in something, the Aether perhaps? www.enterprisemission.com =
has=20
> quite a section on hyperdimensional physics.=20
>=20
>=20
> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- =
http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
>

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From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
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I agree with you that more attention should be paid, but I have a very
different view as to the level of Bogosity.

Indeed this annoys me as people discount things often with no reason besides
it not fitting what they currently believe, please give me 20 instances of
apparent Bogousness, and we'll see if we can hit on some to discuss.

Don't pick all ones which are extremely bogus or already disproven, just a
nice average mix.


On 4/20/07, Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> The term "bogon" is computer hacker jargon, where it is defined as the
> quantum of "bogosity", which itself is the property of being bogus.
>
> "Bogus" in this case refers as much to point of "origin" as to ultimate
> truthfulness. Many seemingly bogus facts turn out to be true. We can
> equate the value of certain information with its origin, however, at
> least for the purpose of convenience in the overload of the information
> age - and this saves a lot of time without too many oversights - usually.
>
> For instance, 98-99% of everything MIT sez about physics is either true,
> arguably true, or not-yet-disproven (or generally innocuous). When they
> blow it, they really blow it. Even the pompous turkey - Bob Park, hated
> as he may be in a few circles (LENR and alternative nutrition/ healing)
> is correct at least 90% of the time. As long as he is belittling someone
> else's scared cow, let him enjoy his soap-box and petty-pomposity. He
> does provide another "filter" of sorts ... yet we all need to have our
> own personal bogon filters, rather than rely on the park-people.
>
> On Vo, we probably have to filter out more bogosity than any other
> forum. Not ironically, alternative-energy attracts bogosity like an NIB
> magnet attracts iron. "Apparent Bogosity" however, is not all bad, in
> one sense. It may have uncredentialed origins, and it may chafe at the
> halter of mainstream control (and funding) but its 'rarity of
> factuality' is balanced firmly by the extreme value of the small truth
> which goes against the grain. That is the problem.
>
> In computerese - the "Bogon" is an informal name for an IP packet on the
> Internet which claims to be from the IP address space which is reserved,
> but not yet allocated by the net-cops (Internet Assigned Numbers
> Authority) to an accountable entity. IOW: the bogon is not credentialed.
> The areas of unallocated address space are called "bogon space" but that
> can be temporary, pending a $mall $um, and you emptor, so to speak -
> must constantly recheck for crednetials. There is a direct corollary to
> this part of information science and other pursuits. All science is
> ultimately "information science".
>
> Take so-called "free energy" for instance. 99% of everything which
> claims to be free energy is bogus, and its point of origin is usually a
> "tell." No problemo ... almost. We are all aware of certain "tells" like
> the lab was raided and the machine confiscated. Yet it is the < 1% which
> will eventually make any tiresome pursuit worthwhile, even wading
> through tons of huckster-smuckster - and this slim glimmer of ultimate
> value is why we tune into to forums like this one (and some of much
> higher average-bogosity).
>
> In the meantime, we must make do with heavy filtering, but the biggest
> problem overall is that lack of funding for the all important *1%*
> which is the uncredentialed information which is either true or pointing
> in that direction, but anti-mainstream. This hidden truth is the very
> spark and impetus of advancing civilization - the forbidden fruit - the
> one percent. If we must fund the whole bogus 99% it is still worthwhile,
> but this can only be done when we are not funding war.
>
> That is where the "gift economy" can come in. Free enterprise without a
> gift economy stinks. More on that later.
>
> After all, when you look for the only things in life that matter - it's
> all about information. Dis-information is not always malicious, and it
> is not always spam (or even an annoyance) and it is not always
> counter-productive. Consider it as humor, if you like.
>
> Like most everything in life - bogosity is a ultimately an ongoing
> balance of pluses and minuses. The "cutting edge" easily becomes the
> "bleeding edge" with a single misstep.
>
> As Kurt Vonnegut was wont to say - "So it goes"
>
> Jones
>
> (if you were thinking Linda Ellerby, you should be reading more and
> watching less TV)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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I agree with you that more attention should be paid, but I have a very different view as to the level of Bogosity.<br><br>Indeed this annoys me as people discount things often with no reason besides it not fitting what they currently believe, please give me 20 instances of apparent Bogousness, and we&#39;ll see if we can hit on some to discuss.
<br><br>Don&#39;t pick all ones which are extremely bogus or already disproven, just a nice average mix.<br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/20/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Jones Beene</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:jonesb9@pacbell.net">
jonesb9@pacbell.net</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">The term &quot;bogon&quot; is computer hacker jargon, where it is defined as the
<br>quantum of &quot;bogosity&quot;, which itself is the property of being bogus.<br><br>&quot;Bogus&quot; in this case refers as much to point of &quot;origin&quot; as to ultimate<br>truthfulness. Many seemingly bogus facts turn out to be true. We can
<br>equate the value of certain information with its origin, however, at<br>least for the purpose of convenience in the overload of the information<br>age - and this saves a lot of time without too many oversights - usually.
<br><br>For instance, 98-99% of everything MIT sez about physics is either true,<br>arguably true, or not-yet-disproven (or generally innocuous). When they<br>blow it, they really blow it. Even the pompous turkey - Bob Park, hated
<br>as he may be in a few circles (LENR and alternative nutrition/ healing)<br>is correct at least 90% of the time. As long as he is belittling someone<br>else&#39;s scared cow, let him enjoy his soap-box and petty-pomposity. He
<br>does provide another &quot;filter&quot; of sorts ... yet we all need to have our<br>own personal bogon filters, rather than rely on the park-people.<br><br>On Vo, we probably have to filter out more bogosity than any other
<br>forum. Not ironically, alternative-energy attracts bogosity like an NIB<br>magnet attracts iron. &quot;Apparent Bogosity&quot; however, is not all bad, in<br>one sense. It may have uncredentialed origins, and it may chafe at the
<br>halter of mainstream control (and funding) but its &#39;rarity of<br>factuality&#39; is balanced firmly by the extreme value of the small truth<br>which goes against the grain. That is the problem.<br><br>In computerese - the &quot;Bogon&quot; is an informal name for an IP packet on the
<br>Internet which claims to be from the IP address space which is reserved,<br>but not yet allocated by the net-cops (Internet Assigned Numbers<br>Authority) to an accountable entity. IOW: the bogon is not credentialed.<br>
The areas of unallocated address space are called &quot;bogon space&quot; but that<br>can be temporary, pending a $mall $um, and you emptor, so to speak -<br>must constantly recheck for crednetials. There is a direct corollary to
<br>this part of information science and other pursuits. All science is<br>ultimately &quot;information science&quot;.<br><br>Take so-called &quot;free energy&quot; for instance. 99% of everything which<br>claims to be free energy is bogus, and its point of origin is usually a
<br>&quot;tell.&quot; No problemo ... almost. We are all aware of certain &quot;tells&quot; like<br>the lab was raided and the machine confiscated. Yet it is the &lt; 1% which<br>will eventually make any tiresome pursuit worthwhile, even wading
<br>through tons of huckster-smuckster - and this slim glimmer of ultimate<br>value is why we tune into to forums like this one (and some of much<br>higher average-bogosity).<br><br>In the meantime, we must make do with heavy filtering, but the biggest
<br>problem overall is that lack of funding for the all important *1%*<br>which is the uncredentialed information which is either true or pointing<br>in that direction, but anti-mainstream. This hidden truth is the very<br>
spark and impetus of advancing civilization - the forbidden fruit - the<br>one percent. If we must fund the whole bogus 99% it is still worthwhile,<br>but this can only be done when we are not funding war.<br><br>That is where the &quot;gift economy&quot; can come in. Free enterprise without a
<br>gift economy stinks. More on that later.<br><br>After all, when you look for the only things in life that matter - it&#39;s<br>all about information. Dis-information is not always malicious, and it<br>is not always spam (or even an annoyance) and it is not always
<br>counter-productive. Consider it as humor, if you like.<br><br>Like most everything in life - bogosity is a ultimately an ongoing<br>balance of pluses and minuses. The &quot;cutting edge&quot; easily becomes the<br>&quot;bleeding edge&quot; with a single misstep.
<br><br>As Kurt Vonnegut was wont to say - &quot;So it goes&quot;<br><br>Jones<br><br>(if you were thinking Linda Ellerby, you should be reading more and<br>watching less TV)<br><br><br><br><br><br><br></blockquote></div>
<br>

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Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 08:37:56 -0700
From: Paul Lowrance <energymover@gmail.com>
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thomas malloy wrote:
 > One sided propaganda, she was too busy beating the drum on human caused
 > warming to talk about anything else. She ignored the issue of the Sun's
 > increased irradiance.


Actually I recall Dr. Brenda did indeed address this.




 > Also the observation that temperature increases,
 > then atmospheric CO2 increases. Art Bell, true believer that he is, ate
 > it all up.


Well, it is difficult to ignore Dr. Brenda, PhD's credentials, and the fact that 
she is and has worked in the field of climate science. Furthermore Dr. Brenda 
said the mass majority of climate scientist *now* believe global warming is 
caused by humanity, and such evidence is overwhelming.




 > OTOH, C to C AM has Richard Hoagland as a guest.


LOL, Richard Hoagland, the guy who went on live nationwide radio to claim the 
Mars surface photos reveled a landscape filled with man made tools?  As I 
recall, on a later date Art Bell got a good chuckle out of that on radio by 
jokingly referring to Richards claim, which interestingly enough is when Richard 
began his "Lets hate Art Bell" campaign.


Sorry my friend, in this case it's far more logical to side with a leading 
climate science researcher, Dr. Brenda Ekwurzel, PhD. over Richard Hoagland.



Regards,
Paul

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Subject: [Vo]:Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday April 20, 2007
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-----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki

>From: What's New <whatsnew@BOBPARK.ORG>
>Sent: Apr 20, 2007 2:16 PM
To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday April 20, 2007

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 20 Apr 07   Washington, DC

1. BIGELOW SPACE STATIONS: BUDGET SUITES IN LOW-EARTH ORBIT. 
"Space is just another place to do business," they used to say in
the Reagan White House.  What business, you might ask?  The
latest venture in space is Bigelow Aerospace, which revealed its
plans last week at the National Space Symposium in Colorado
Springs.  Robert Bigelow, the founder and president of Bigelow
Aerospace, intends to have three manned outposts, assembled from
inflatable modules, in low-Earth orbit by 2015.  Bigelow is also
the owner of Budget Suites of America, a hotel chain, but he'll
leave space tourism to the ISS.  Bigelow is courting two markets:
foreign space agencies that don't have access to a space station,
and multinational corporations that want to get into micro-
gravity research.  That was the fatal miscalculation of previous
space station programs: industry couldn't find anything worth
doing in micro-gravity.  So, is this crazy?  Decide for yourself:
Robert Bigelow also founded the National Institute of Discovery
Science in Las Vegas, a secretive research group with links to
the Pentagon that focuses on alien abductions and the paranormal. 

2. SEX EDUCATION: ABSTINENCE MAKES THE HEART GROW FONDER. 
Students who participated in sexual abstinence programs were just
as likely to have sex as those who did not, according to a study
ordered by Congress.  Nor did they have fewer sex partners, or
wait longer to become sexually active.  The report, released late
last Friday, comes just after the abrupt resignation of Dr. Eric
Keroack, an anti-birth control zealot, appointed by Bush just
four months ago to head the Office of Population Affairs of the
Department of Health and Human Services.  A non-board-certified
gynecologist/obstetrician who operates six Christian anti-
abortion centers in Massachusetts, Keroack had been notified of a
state investigation into his private practice.

3. STUDENT LOANS: EVEN HIGHER EDUCATION HAS SUCCUMBED TO BRIBERY.
In 1994, Congress established a program of direct student loans
at lower interest rates.  Bank of America and Citibank, the
biggest banks in the student loan business, lavished millions in
bribes on colleges and universities to get them to drop out of
the federal program.  The banks were led to the trough by Sallie
Mae, the largest private student lender.  Sallie Mae began  as a
quasi-governmental agency in 1972, but began privatizing 10 years
ago.  This week Sallie Mae announced it is selling itself and
will become will become fully private.  The CEO will walk away
from the deal with about $257 million, while 10 million students
will graduate with debts that average nearly $20,000.

4. MISTAKES: READERS TELL US WN HAS BEEN GETTING A LITTLE SLOPPY.
Everyone in the APS Washington Office used to stop what they were
doing late Friday to proof WN.  We are now making the transition
from APS to UMD, however, and "we" now means "me."  We will try
to be more careful, but mystakes are possible.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
University of Maryland, but they should be.
---
Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org
What's New is moving to a different listserver and our
subscription process has changed. To change your subscription
status please visit this link:
http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1

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Michel Jullian wrote:

>It seems to me that whatever the causes of GW, if we want a remedy we will have to take care of it.
>
>Jed mentioned orbiting parasols once, I then understood he was talking about Earth orbits so I 
>
You could use either the Cook Drive or the E M Drive to hold the parasol 
in place.


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Paul Lowrance wrote:

> thomas malloy wrote:
> > One sided propaganda, she was too busy beating the drum on human caused
>
> Well, it is difficult to ignore Dr. Brenda, PhD's credentials, and the 
> fact that she is and has worked in the field of climate science. 
> Furthermore Dr. Brenda said the mass majority of climate scientist 
> *now* believe global warming is caused by humanity, and such evidence 
> is overwhelming.
>
There are scientists who disagree with Dr. Brenda, 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU


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thomas malloy wrote:
> Paul Lowrance wrote:
> 
>> thomas malloy wrote:
>> > One sided propaganda, she was too busy beating the drum on human caused
>>
>> Well, it is difficult to ignore Dr. Brenda, PhD's credentials, and the 
>> fact that she is and has worked in the field of climate science. 
>> Furthermore Dr. Brenda said the mass majority of climate scientist 
>> *now* believe global warming is caused by humanity, and such evidence 
>> is overwhelming.
>>
> There are scientists who disagree with Dr. Brenda, 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU
> 


No doubt, but Dr. Brenda said nearly all climate scientists now agree with the 
recent overwhelming data that clearly indicates humanity is the cause of global 
warming.

Humanity is destroying this planet, period!


Paul Lowrance

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Howdy Vorts,

As the world turns, the rant goes on and the stomach turns. People are not 
destroying the planet.. maybe themselves individually and in collective 
groups.. but not the planet.. that's coming, but by design and not by human 
decree or PHD.
Richard
>> > One sided propaganda, she was too busy beating the drum on human caused
>>
>> Well, it is difficult to ignore Dr. Brenda, PhD's credentials, and the 
>> fact that she is and has worked in the field of climate science. 
>> Furthermore Dr. Brenda said the mass majority of climate scientist *now* 
>> believe global warming is caused by humanity, and such evidence is 
>> overwhelming.
>>
> There are scientists who disagree with Dr. Brenda, 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU
>
>No doubt, but Dr. Brenda said nearly all climate scientists now agree with 
>the recent overwhelming data that clearly indicates humanity is the cause 
>of global warming.

>Humanity is destroying this planet, period!


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R.C.Macaulay wrote:
 > Howdy Vorts,
 >
 > As the world turns, the rant goes on and the stomach turns. People are
 > not destroying the planet.. maybe themselves individually and in
 > collective groups.. but not the planet.. that's coming, but by design
 > and not by human decree or PHD.
 > Richard
 >>> > One sided propaganda, she was too busy beating the drum on human
 >>> caused
 >>>
 >>> Well, it is difficult to ignore Dr. Brenda, PhD's credentials, and
 >>> the fact that she is and has worked in the field of climate science.
 >>> Furthermore Dr. Brenda said the mass majority of climate scientist
 >>> *now* believe global warming is caused by humanity, and such evidence
 >>> is overwhelming.
 >>>
 >> There are scientists who disagree with Dr. Brenda,
 >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU
 >>
 >> No doubt, but Dr. Brenda said nearly all climate scientists now agree
 >> with the recent overwhelming data that clearly indicates humanity is
 >> the cause of global warming.
 >
 >> Humanity is destroying this planet, period!
 >


The planet has life; forests, ozone, etc. etc. Investigate and you should 
discover humanity is *literally* wiping out forests, causing ozone depression, 
air pollution, ocean chemical pollution, unnatural green house, etc. etc.  All 
of which cause other problems-- an avalanche effect.

I'm not a climate expert. In this case I'll trust the words of a leading PhD 
climate scientists than a few people at Vo, LOL. :-)

Here's some up to date information for you.  Last week Dr. Brenda, PhD. clearly 
said most climate scientists now agree with recent data that humanity is the 
major cause of global warming. Do you or anyone at Vo have a more recent 
statement from a leading PhD climate physicist that disagrees with the 
aforementioned statement?  I doubt it, lol. The few disbelieving climate 
scientists left are probably just stubborn, a little slow, and perhaps wrote a 
book and therefore cannot stomach to admit such error. IMHO a person should be 
very cautious with claims in writing a public book. Once the claim is made 
public in such a book the scientist would rather cut off their arm than admit 
error.  Such a pity when modern society is at stake, as this is a vitally 
important field.

Fact still remains.


Paul

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Paul Lowrance wrote:

> thomas malloy wrote:
>
>> Paul Lowrance wrote:
>>
>>>
>> There are scientists who disagree with Dr. Brenda, 
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU
>>
> No doubt, but Dr. Brenda said nearly all climate scientists now agree 
> with the recent overwhelming data that clearly indicates humanity is 
> the cause of global warming.
>
> Humanity is destroying this planet, period!

No Paul,  it's not the case. The video makes the case much better than I 
can.




--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Lowrance" <energymover@gmail.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 2:05 AM
Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.


>> There are scientists who disagree with Dr. Brenda, 
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU
>>
>
>
> No doubt, but Dr. Brenda said nearly all climate scientists now agree with 
> the recent overwhelming data that clearly indicates humanity is the cause 
> of global warming.

Well, since Vortexians seem to love a good logical fallacy argument....

....this entire thread is developing into an appeal to authority that is so 
large Godzilla will have to come out of the sea of Japan to do battle with 
it.

I've no idea who "Dr. Brenda" is exactly, nor do I particularly think the 
teachings of Richard Hoagland are going to solve much of our problems. I 
listen to Art Bell at times, I take almost nothing of it seriously. It is 
light-hearted entertainment, and I love spooky stuff late at night, real or 
not, it is all just as fun.

Should we try to cut emissions of "bad" gases? Sure, why not, but not at the 
detriment of the basis of our society, that is, the working class. Maybe 
anyone in an environmentalist organization should be given a severe tax 
increase to support a changeover to something else, or to be used to buy 
those dandy carbon credits. Call is the "practice what you preach" tax. No 
more or less stupid than the "how many congressmen does it take to change a 
lightbulb" thing, or however that little gem of bovine waste product was 
worded.

Does anyone here on Vortex want to actually work on stuff like this in the 
real world, like real world solar power, electric cars for the people (not 
fancy BS jobs that cost more than a Mercedes-Benz, but cheap stuff for the 
poorer among us), etc? Or is this becoming a list for the "new 
televangelism?" Believe me, if I could afford it, if it was available, I 
would use an electric car to go back and forth to work. (But I would keep 
the Buick for longer excursions.)

Does anyone want to really discuss this stuff, and make it happen? Or at 
least try wholeheartedly? I'm game, I've been working on things quietly in 
the background for years. "Vortex Electric Vehicle" anyone?

> Humanity is destroying this planet, period!

Our definitions of destroy must be very different. Altering, changing, yes. 
Destroy? In my book, that would entail overcoming the gravitational binding 
energy of the Earth, putting it "in orbit around itself". Or, if you mean 
"render uninhabitable", no we aren't doing that either. Life will be here 
long after we are gone, if we go.***

But, that said, if you want to do solar power, alternative fuels, etc., man 
I am right here with you.

***What is that...optimism?!? I suppose, the Sun is now shining and it isn't 
so cold here today, the long string of unseasonable cold caused by the 
increase temperature of the Earth, no doubt. :)

--Kyle 

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Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.
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thomas malloy wrote:
 > Paul Lowrance wrote:
 >
 >> thomas malloy wrote:
 >>
 >>> Paul Lowrance wrote:
 >>>
 >>>>
 >>> There are scientists who disagree with Dr. Brenda,
 >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU
 >>>
 >> No doubt, but Dr. Brenda said nearly all climate scientists now agree
 >> with the recent overwhelming data that clearly indicates humanity is
 >> the cause of global warming.
 >>
 >> Humanity is destroying this planet, period!
 >
 > No Paul,  it's not the case. The video makes the case much better than I
 > can.




Check out the date when that material was filmed. I can give you up to date 
information.  Last week, Dr. Brenda, PhD. said most climate physicists *now* 
agree with recent data that humanity is the cause of global warming.  Can you 
show us a more recent statement that says otherwise?  I don't think so. You are 
clinging to old information.

Try taking a look at the air in most major cities. Take a look at China. I 
seriously doubt air is supposed to be brown, LOL.  Amazon forest satellite 
images taken over time clearly reveal mass destruction. Are you aware of what 
recent computer simulations predict from all these man made changes?

This conversation is meaningless until you can provide us with a more recent 
statement form a leading climate scientist who states most climate scientists 
disagree that humanity is the major cause of global warming. In this case it is 
illogical to go against the mass majority of climate physicists.

One thing is for certain, Dr. Brenda is far qualified enough to know whether 
most climate scientists agree humanity is the major cause of global warming. Dr. 
Brenda works in this field with up date to information. She knows the up to date 
majority position in this field.

Since I am not a climate expert, I'll take the side of the mass majority PhD 
climate scientists thank you very much.


Paul

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Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.
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Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
[snip
> Should we try to cut emissions of "bad" gases? Sure, why not, but not at 
> the detriment of the basis of our society, that is, the working class. 
> Maybe anyone in an environmentalist organization should be given a 
> severe tax increase to support a changeover to something else, or to be 
> used to buy those dandy carbon credits. Call is the "practice what you 
> preach" tax. No more or less stupid than the "how many congressmen does 
> it take to change a lightbulb" thing, or however that little gem of 
> bovine waste product was worded.



I agree more people should focus on this issue. When so many climate scientists 
now agree with recent* data that smog, etc. etc. etc are indeed causing 
appreciable damage then who should care that the Sun is having a bad cycle?  I 
mean, we can't change the Sun, but the effects caused by modern society are real 
and undeniable. We should try to improve.

It seems the major debate in this thread is what's the major cause of global 
warming-- humanity or the Sun.  Really, who cares if humanity is 51% of the 
cause and the Sun is 49%, LOL.  So what? We shouldn't care.  Fact still remains 
that humanity is a big cause, period. Therefore I would agree with Kyle's post. 
Lets focus on how we can improve things. Lets try to encourage more minds 
focusing on this issue.


Regards,
Paul Lowrance

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Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.
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One warped comment to add into the bogosity mix: 

> People are not destroying the planet.. maybe
themselves
> individually and in collective groups.. but not the
planet.. 

I agree with this part of Richard's summation, but he
may be viewing the situation in the context of a
narrow religious prophecy. Understandable, yet .... 

This prophecy, and others from diverse traditions, may
be both surprisingly accurate in terms of a coming
disaster, yet at the same time - misleading ...
horribly misleading if you are among the hopeful class
of believers looking for "rapture" based solely on
faith, and especially if it is a faith which accepts
war under false pretenses, and wealth accumulation in
the face of enforced poverty, as acceptable goals. 

As it turns out, ancient prophecy from many traditions
can be reinterpreted into a modern context, which
end-result may be more troubling to 'true believers'
than some kind of Armageddon which favors only a
"chosen" group. 

IOW there is a kind of 'end of days' scenario
approaching, in the guise of an evolutionary jump, but
it is extremely doubtful that the individuals who
think they are in the chosen group really are - as the
criteria will likely be a big surprise; and will have
little to do with what most dogma indicates. The
master plan is like a many-layered Russian egg - but
it may unravel - as the secret could not be hidden
from all.

IF -- all the data about the human interaction with
the planet were to be evaluated by a superior but
non-human mentality, there is one conclusion, which
every almost every human has missed, thus far.

Indeed, ID is not a fiction, and yes there 'could be'
evidence of goal-directed ongoing planning, especially
in the rapid advances in the past two decades in
computers, artificial intelligence, genetic
engineering, networking and robotics ....

.... there 'could be' evidence that the master plan
involves a forced evolutionary change... and that the
NWO will involve much more than a united world
government.

... there 'could be' evidence that the master plan
will involve an extreme forced reduction in human
population and Matrix-like enslavement (instead of
rapture) for the survivors. 

How would the reality of "pre-planned" global warming,
and the efforts under way by some to abet and
co-conspire - i.e. to force the alarmists to ignore
the implications of that trend until it is too late to
do anything to halt it -  how would that possible
scenario fit into the revised 'Russian egg'
triple-cross prophecy?

Without sounding too cynical, it is pretty clear than
an "evolutionary jump" is much closer at hand than
many of us chose to realize, and that the way is being
paved for recipients of that technological largess to
be chosen for the big-jump (i.e. a 'rebirth' not
spiritual but physical, into an advanced race) based
on criteria which is a total heresy and abomination to
what is contained in scripture (until that dogma is
drastically reinterpreted, which will happen). 

... yet all the while, those who are in-the-know, are
holding out some kind of false hope (a kind of
facilitating promise) to the 'mass of believers' who
will be triple-crossed, in the end. Curiously, even
the present US administration is NOT in-the-know, and
they are being duped by yet a higher order of ID.

Harry Tuttle, who has been spying on the NWO for some
time has told me privately that the Neo-Con thing was
just a ruse. Yes, people like W are tools (in more
ways than one) and are getting direct messages from ID
- but the conent is bogusly decieving. 

Yup ... sorry to say it, W, but the trickster has been
hard at work, once again, and it will be mostly the
Limo-Liberals who will be positioned and selected for
the new master race.  Enjoy you rapturous stay in the
NeoCon wing of the Matrix ....

Kokopelli rules  ;-)

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Apr 21 09:09:05 2007
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Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.
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Indeed Paul, whether you and Dr Brenda and the IPCC http://www.ipcc.ch/ =
are right is irrelevant. The real question is, can humanity remediate =
global warming, and how, we should be practical about this.

Thomas suggested some drives as propulsion means for space parasols, but =
it seems to me that since the parasols will be submitted to photon =
pressure anyway, it would be great if they could be entirely sustented =
this way (solar sails). Indeed, whatever the mass and reflective area of =
the parasol, there must exist a spot on the Sun-Earth line where it will =
be in equilibrium between solar attraction, centrifugal force and photon =
pressure, comments/criticisms welcome on this.

Michel

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Paul Lowrance" <energymover@gmail.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually =
based.


> Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
> [snip
>> Should we try to cut emissions of "bad" gases? Sure, why not, but not =
at=20
>> the detriment of the basis of our society, that is, the working =
class.=20
>> Maybe anyone in an environmentalist organization should be given a=20
>> severe tax increase to support a changeover to something else, or to =
be=20
>> used to buy those dandy carbon credits. Call is the "practice what =
you=20
>> preach" tax. No more or less stupid than the "how many congressmen =
does=20
>> it take to change a lightbulb" thing, or however that little gem of=20
>> bovine waste product was worded.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I agree more people should focus on this issue. When so many climate =
scientists=20
> now agree with recent* data that smog, etc. etc. etc are indeed =
causing=20
> appreciable damage then who should care that the Sun is having a bad =
cycle?  I=20
> mean, we can't change the Sun, but the effects caused by modern =
society are real=20
> and undeniable. We should try to improve.
>=20
> It seems the major debate in this thread is what's the major cause of =
global=20
> warming-- humanity or the Sun.  Really, who cares if humanity is 51% =
of the=20
> cause and the Sun is 49%, LOL.  So what? We shouldn't care.  Fact =
still remains=20
> that humanity is a big cause, period. Therefore I would agree with =
Kyle's post.=20
> Lets focus on how we can improve things. Lets try to encourage more =
minds=20
> focusing on this issue.
>=20
>=20
> Regards,
> Paul Lowrance
>

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BlankHowdy Vorts,

The topic of global warming came up during a small discussion at the =
Dime Box saloon which usually results in a brawl.
Today our resident mathematics PHD explained global warming using basic =
geometry which I quote below..
>There were three Indian squaws. One slept on a deerskin, one slept=20

>on an elk skin, and the third slept on a hippopotamus skin. All three =
became

>pregnant, and the first two each had a baby boy. The one who slept on =
the

>hippopotamus skin had twin boys. This goes to prove that the squaw of =
the=20

>hippopotamus is equal to the sons of the squaws of the other two hides.

Several Vorts have requested that we get serious about global warming . =
This is my suggestion that everyone turn off at least one 100 watt bulb =
in the interest of modesty.. cuz .. well.. errr.. it's not to private in =
a tepee.

Richard



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<DIV>Howdy Vorts,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The topic of global warming came up during a small discussion at =
the Dime=20
Box saloon which usually results in a brawl.</DIV>
<DIV>Today our resident mathematics PHD explained global warming using =
basic=20
geometry which I quote below..</DIV>
<P>&gt;There were three Indian squaws. One slept on a deerskin, one =
slept=20
<BR><BR>&gt;on an elk skin, and the third slept on a hippopotamus skin. =
All=20
three became<BR><BR>&gt;pregnant, and the first two each had a baby boy. =
The one=20
who slept on the<BR><BR>&gt;hippopotamus skin had twin boys. This goes =
to prove=20
that the squaw of the <BR><BR>&gt;hippopotamus is equal to the sons of =
the=20
squaws of the other two hides.</P>
<P>Several Vorts have requested that we get serious about global warming =
. This=20
is my&nbsp;suggestion that everyone turn off at least one 100 watt bulb =
in the=20
interest of modesty.. cuz .. well.. errr.. it's not to private in a =
tepee.</P>
<P>Richard<BR><BR></P></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:48:27 +1200
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.
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I haven't read much in this thread, but in the end it doesn't matter if the
polluting man is doing is the cause of Global Warming.
Very few are questioning if Global Warming is happening, if it will be a
problem.
The issue of man's fault in causing it is just a blame game and unimportant,
it doesn't change the fact that it's happening.

The other undeniable issue is that man can fix it and has the
response-ability to do so for our own good.

The only issue that need be under discussion is how we should go about this.

Oh, wait I just read the post before mine and it says the same thing, oh
well...


On 4/22/07, PHILIP WINESTONE <philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:
>
> I think we should aim all the fire-hoses on earth at the sun, then say
> ready! set! go!  (The element of surprise is so important.).
>
> P.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com>
> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 12:08:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.
>
> Indeed Paul, whether you and Dr Brenda and the IPCC http://www.ipcc.ch/are right is irrelevant. The real question is, can humanity remediate global
> warming, and how, we should be practical about this.
>
> Thomas suggested some drives as propulsion means for space parasols, but
> it seems to me that since the parasols will be submitted to photon pressure
> anyway, it would be great if they could be entirely sustented this way
> (solar sails). Indeed, whatever the mass and reflective area of the parasol,
> there must exist a spot on the Sun-Earth line where it will be in
> equilibrium between solar attraction, centrifugal force and photon pressure,
> comments/criticisms welcome on this.
>
> Michel
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Lowrance" <energymover@gmail.com>
> To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 5:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.
>
>
> > Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
> > [snip
> >> Should we try to cut emissions of "bad" gases? Sure, why not, but not
> at
> >> the detriment of the basis of our society, that is, the working class.
> >> Maybe anyone in an environmentalist organization should be given a
> >> severe tax increase to support a changeover to something else, or to be
>
> >> used to buy those dandy carbon credits. Call is the "practice what you
> >> preach" tax. No more or less stupid than the "how many congressmen does
>
> >> it take to change a lightbulb" thing, or however that little gem of
> >> bovine waste product was worded.
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree more people should focus on this issue. When so many climate
> scientists
> > now agree with recent* data that smog, etc. etc. etc are indeed causing
> > appreciable damage then who should care that the Sun is having a bad
> cycle?  I
> > mean, we can't change the Sun, but the effects caused by modern society
> are real
> > and undeniable. We should try to improve.
> >
> > It seems the major debate in this thread is what's the major cause of
> global
> > warming-- humanity or the Sun.  Really, who cares if humanity is 51% of
> the
> > cause and the Sun is 49%, LOL.  So what? We shouldn't care.  Fact still
> remains
> > that humanity is a big cause, period. Therefore I would agree with
> Kyle's post.
> > Lets focus on how we can improve things. Lets try to encourage more
> minds
> > focusing on this issue.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Paul Lowrance
> >
>
>
>

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I haven&#39;t read much in this thread, but in the end it doesn&#39;t matter if the polluting man is doing is the cause of Global Warming.<br>Very few are questioning if Global Warming is happening, if it will be a problem.
<br>The issue of man&#39;s fault in causing it is just a blame game and unimportant, it doesn&#39;t change the fact that it&#39;s happening.<br><br>The other undeniable issue is that man can fix it and has the response-ability to do so for our own good.
<br><br>The only issue that need be under discussion is how we should go about this.<br><br>Oh, wait I just read the post before mine and it says the same thing, oh well...<br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/22/07, 
<b class="gmail_sendername">PHILIP WINESTONE</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:philip.winestone@rogers.com">philip.winestone@rogers.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">I think we should aim all the fire-hoses on earth at the sun, then say ready! set! go!&nbsp; (The element of surprise is so important.).
<br><span class="sg"><br>P.<br><br></span><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span class="q">----- Original Message ----<br>From: Michel Jullian &lt;<a href="mailto:mj@exbang.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
mj@exbang.com</a>&gt;<br>To: <a href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">vortex-l@eskimo.com</a><br></span><div><span class="e" id="q_11215b4139b64cee_4">Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 12:08:54 PM
<br>Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.<br><br><div>Indeed Paul, whether you and Dr Brenda and the IPCC <a href="http://www.ipcc.ch/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
http://www.ipcc.ch/</a> are right is irrelevant. The real question is, can humanity remediate global warming, and how, we should be practical about this.<br><br>Thomas suggested some drives as
 propulsion means for space parasols, but it seems to me that since the parasols will be submitted to photon pressure anyway, it would be great if they could be entirely sustented this way (solar sails). Indeed, whatever the mass and reflective area of the parasol, there must exist a spot on the Sun-Earth line where it will be in equilibrium between solar attraction, centrifugal force and photon pressure, comments/criticisms welcome on this.
<br><br>Michel<br><br>----- Original Message ----- <br>From: &quot;Paul Lowrance&quot; &lt;<a href="mailto:energymover@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">energymover@gmail.com
</a>&gt;<br>To: &lt;<a href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">vortex-l@eskimo.com</a>&gt;<br>Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 5:11 PM<br>Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.
<br><br><br>&gt; Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:<br>&gt; [snip<br>&gt;&gt; Should we try to cut emissions of &quot;bad&quot; gases? Sure, why not, but not at <br>&gt;&gt; the detriment of the basis of our society, that is, the working class. 
<br>&gt;&gt; Maybe anyone in an environmentalist
 organization should be given a <br>&gt;&gt; severe tax increase to support a changeover to something else, or to be <br>&gt;&gt; used to buy those dandy carbon credits. Call is the &quot;practice what you <br>&gt;&gt; preach&quot; tax. No more or less stupid than the &quot;how many congressmen does 
<br>&gt;&gt; it take to change a lightbulb&quot; thing, or however that little gem of <br>&gt;&gt; bovine waste product was worded.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; I agree more people should focus on this issue. When so many climate scientists 
<br>&gt; now agree with recent* data that smog, etc. etc. etc are indeed causing <br>&gt; appreciable damage then who should care that the Sun is having a bad cycle?&nbsp;&nbsp;I <br>&gt; mean, we can&#39;t change the Sun, but the effects caused by modern society are real 
<br>&gt; and undeniable. We should try to improve.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; It seems the major debate in this thread is what&#39;s the major cause of global <br>&gt; warming-- humanity or the
 Sun.&nbsp;&nbsp;Really, who cares if humanity is 51% of the <br>&gt; cause and the Sun is 49%, LOL.&nbsp;&nbsp;So what? We shouldn&#39;t care.&nbsp;&nbsp;Fact still remains <br>&gt; that humanity is a big cause, period. Therefore I would agree with Kyle&#39;s post. 
<br>&gt; Lets focus on how we can improve things. Lets try to encourage more minds <br>&gt; focusing on this issue.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Regards,<br>&gt; Paul Lowrance<br>&gt;<br><br></div></span></div></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.
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I think we should aim all the fire-hoses on earth at the sun, then say ready! set! go!  (The element of surprise is so important.).

P.

----- Original Message ----
From: Michel Jullian <mj@exbang.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 12:08:54 PM
Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.

Indeed Paul, whether you and Dr Brenda and the IPCC http://www.ipcc.ch/ are right is irrelevant. The real question is, can humanity remediate global warming, and how, we should be practical about this.

Thomas suggested some drives as propulsion means for space parasols, but it seems to me that since the parasols will be submitted to photon pressure anyway, it would be great if they could be entirely sustented this way (solar sails). Indeed, whatever the mass and reflective area of the parasol, there must exist a spot on the Sun-Earth line where it will be in equilibrium between solar attraction, centrifugal force and photon pressure, comments/criticisms welcome on this.

Michel

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Lowrance" <energymover@gmail.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 5:11 PM
Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.


> Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
> [snip
>> Should we try to cut emissions of "bad" gases? Sure, why not, but not at 
>> the detriment of the basis of our society, that is, the working class. 
>> Maybe anyone in an environmentalist organization should be given a 
>> severe tax increase to support a changeover to something else, or to be 
>> used to buy those dandy carbon credits. Call is the "practice what you 
>> preach" tax. No more or less stupid than the "how many congressmen does 
>> it take to change a lightbulb" thing, or however that little gem of 
>> bovine waste product was worded.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree more people should focus on this issue. When so many climate scientists 
> now agree with recent* data that smog, etc. etc. etc are indeed causing 
> appreciable damage then who should care that the Sun is having a bad cycle?  I 
> mean, we can't change the Sun, but the effects caused by modern society are real 
> and undeniable. We should try to improve.
> 
> It seems the major debate in this thread is what's the major cause of global 
> warming-- humanity or the Sun.  Really, who cares if humanity is 51% of the 
> cause and the Sun is 49%, LOL.  So what? We shouldn't care.  Fact still remains 
> that humanity is a big cause, period. Therefore I would agree with Kyle's post. 
> Lets focus on how we can improve things. Lets try to encourage more minds 
> focusing on this issue.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Paul Lowrance
>






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<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">I think we should aim all the fire-hoses on earth at the sun, then say ready! set! go!&nbsp; (The element of surprise is so important.).<br><br>P.<br><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">----- Original Message ----<br>From: Michel Jullian &lt;mj@exbang.com&gt;<br>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<br>Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 12:08:54 PM<br>Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.<br><br><div>Indeed Paul, whether you and Dr Brenda and the IPCC <a target="_blank" href="http://www.ipcc.ch/">http://www.ipcc.ch/</a> are right is irrelevant. The real question is, can humanity remediate global warming, and how, we should be practical about this.<br><br>Thomas suggested some drives as
 propulsion means for space parasols, but it seems to me that since the parasols will be submitted to photon pressure anyway, it would be great if they could be entirely sustented this way (solar sails). Indeed, whatever the mass and reflective area of the parasol, there must exist a spot on the Sun-Earth line where it will be in equilibrium between solar attraction, centrifugal force and photon pressure, comments/criticisms welcome on this.<br><br>Michel<br><br>----- Original Message ----- <br>From: "Paul Lowrance" &lt;energymover@gmail.com&gt;<br>To: &lt;vortex-l@eskimo.com&gt;<br>Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 5:11 PM<br>Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.<br><br><br>&gt; Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:<br>&gt; [snip<br>&gt;&gt; Should we try to cut emissions of "bad" gases? Sure, why not, but not at <br>&gt;&gt; the detriment of the basis of our society, that is, the working class. <br>&gt;&gt; Maybe anyone in an environmentalist
 organization should be given a <br>&gt;&gt; severe tax increase to support a changeover to something else, or to be <br>&gt;&gt; used to buy those dandy carbon credits. Call is the "practice what you <br>&gt;&gt; preach" tax. No more or less stupid than the "how many congressmen does <br>&gt;&gt; it take to change a lightbulb" thing, or however that little gem of <br>&gt;&gt; bovine waste product was worded.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; I agree more people should focus on this issue. When so many climate scientists <br>&gt; now agree with recent* data that smog, etc. etc. etc are indeed causing <br>&gt; appreciable damage then who should care that the Sun is having a bad cycle?&nbsp;&nbsp;I <br>&gt; mean, we can't change the Sun, but the effects caused by modern society are real <br>&gt; and undeniable. We should try to improve.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; It seems the major debate in this thread is what's the major cause of global <br>&gt; warming-- humanity or the
 Sun.&nbsp;&nbsp;Really, who cares if humanity is 51% of the <br>&gt; cause and the Sun is 49%, LOL.&nbsp;&nbsp;So what? We shouldn't care.&nbsp;&nbsp;Fact still remains <br>&gt; that humanity is a big cause, period. Therefore I would agree with Kyle's post. <br>&gt; Lets focus on how we can improve things. Lets try to encourage more minds <br>&gt; focusing on this issue.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Regards,<br>&gt; Paul Lowrance<br>&gt;<br><br></div></div><br></div></div></body></html>
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Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2007 22:38:33 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [VO]: Re: Global warming caused by ...
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On 4/21/07, R.C.Macaulay <walhalla@cvtv.net> wrote:

> This goes to prove that the squaw of the
>
> >hippopotamus is equal to the sons of the squaws of the other two hides.

Just goes to show that a pie by two fag gurus is flavorable.

Good one, RC.

Terry

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: [Vo]:Re: Abstract of WO2004059662
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Fri, 11 Nov 2005 07:02:56 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]
>This is totally bizarre, and alien to all of physics - but someone (who =
has a "mit.edu" email address, if it is the same Christian Tahan) went to=
 the trouble and expense of filing this WPO application.   He appears to =
be a computer programmer, not a physicist... not there's anything wrong =
with that.
>
>AZIZ CHRISTIAN TAHAN, 1765 Northshore Road, Suite 3, Revere, MA. 02151, =
    =20
>
>
>Abstract of WO2004059662
>
Quoting from the description of the patent:-

"Moreover in the presence of deuterium, it has been postulated that the =
decay of
a proton can result in a helium-3 atom and a gamma ray, the same fusion =
process
of the Sun. The process is an energy generation process."

This is simple fusion, and has nothing whatever to do with proton decay. =
The
only person "postulating" this is the inventor, who clearly hasn't a =
clue.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation,
Cooperation (communism) provides the means.

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Apr 21 22:31:07 2007
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Jones Beene wrote:

>One warped comment to add into the bogosity mix: 
>People are not destroying the planet.. maybe themselves
>
>>individually and in collective groups.. but not the
>>
>planet.. 
>
>I agree with this part of Richard's summation, but he
>may be viewing the situation in the context of a
>narrow religious prophecy. Understandable, yet .... 
>
>This prophecy, and others from diverse traditions, may
>be both surprisingly accurate in terms of a coming
>
>disaster, yet at the same time - misleading ...
>horribly misleading if you are among the hopeful class
>of believers looking for "rapture" based solely on
>faith, and especially if it is a faith which accepts
>war under false pretenses, and wealth accumulation in
>the face of enforced poverty, as acceptable goals. 
>
It has been clear to me for some time that the growth of human 
civilization is unsustainable, I have used the analogy of bugs 
(bacteria) on a petri plate. The accumulation of wealth and the 
enforcement of poverty is a manifestation of the underlying problem of 
human evil or sinful nature.

>
>As it turns out, ancient prophecy from many traditions
>can be reinterpreted into a modern context, which
>end-result may be more troubling to 'true believers'
>than some kind of Armageddon which favors only a
>"chosen" group. 
>
If we (the Church) aren't withdrawn, we will be killed.

>
>IOW there is a kind of 'end of days' scenario
>approaching, in the guise of an evolutionary jump, but
>
>
The "evolutionary jump" has to be accompanied by a cleansing of our evil 
nature. It is often assumed that an education makes you a better person. 
In reality, this ignores that the biggest supporters of Hitler were 
people with doctorates. Eduction produces a more sophisticated and 
destructive savage.

>
>IF -- all the data about the human interaction with
>the planet were to be evaluated by a superior but
>non-human mentality, there is one conclusion, which
>every almost every human has missed, thus far.
>
>Indeed, ID is not a fiction, and yes there 'could be'
>evidence of goal-directed ongoing planning, especially
>in the rapid advances in the past two decades in
>computers, artificial intelligence, genetic
>engineering, networking and robotics ....
>
>.... there 'could be' evidence that the master plan
>involves a forced evolutionary change... and that the
>NWO will involve much more than a united world
>government.
>
 From the  viewpoint of the savage the agenda of the NWO; the breeding 
of a blond superman, the reduction of population, and enforcement of 
wild areas on the planet. makes perfect sense. That this agenda flies in 
the face of the agenda of the entity who created the world, is of no 
consequence to the hard core of the NWO crowd, who worship another god.

>
>... there 'could be' evidence that the master plan
>will involve an extreme forced reduction in human
>population and Matrix-like enslavement (instead of
>rapture) for the survivors. 
>

IMHO, we're both right.

>
>How would the reality of "pre-planned" global warming,
>and the efforts under way by some to abet and
>co-conspire - i.e. to force the alarmists to ignore
>the implications of that trend until it is too late to
>do anything to halt it -  
>

If I'm right about the increase in solar irradiance, there's nothing 
that anyone, other than the creator, can do about it.

>how would that possible
>scenario fit into the revised 'Russian egg'
>triple-cross prophecy?
>
>Without sounding too cynical, it is pretty clear than
>an "evolutionary jump" is much closer at hand than
>many of us chose to realize, 
>

If the agricultural scientists can't fix the missing bee problem, you 
are right. One of the Eschatologists think that the seven year clock may 
have started last Rosh HaShanna. This lines up with both the honey bee 
problem and the 2012 prophecy.

>and that the way is being
>paved for recipients of that technological largess to
>be chosen for the big-jump (i.e. a 'rebirth' not
>spiritual but physical, into an advanced race) based
>on criteria which is a total heresy and abomination to
>what is contained in scripture (until that dogma is
>drastically reinterpreted, which will happen). 
>
Dream on.

>
>... yet all the while, those who are in-the-know, are
>holding out some kind of false hope (a kind of
>facilitating promise) to the 'mass of believers' who
>will be triple-crossed, in the end. Curiously, even
>the present US administration is NOT in-the-know, and
>they are being duped by yet a higher order of ID.
>
In all fairness to W. I draw his actions to that of a man walking down 
the top of a picket fence. One slip and he gets a picket up a certain 
bodily orafce. I could write a paper on the various forces that have to 
be factored into maintaining the status quo. Maintaining the economy is 
essential to maintaining the existing order.

>
>Harry Tuttle, who has been spying on the NWO for some
>time has told me privately that the Neo-Con thing was
>just a ruse. Yes, people like W are tools (in more
>ways than one) and are getting direct messages from ID
>- but the conent is bogusly decieving. 
>
Or you can see it as a civilizational war between the forces of 
modernity and the forces of the imposition of Sharia Law.

>
>Yup ... sorry to say it, W, but the trickster has been
>hard at work, once again, and it will be mostly the
>Limo-Liberals who will be positioned and selected for
>the new master race.  
>
I've already commented on the tricker allegation. The conservative 
author, Phillys Shaffley, has started calling for the impeachment of W. 
Having slings and arrows coming from both sides is, IMHO, an indication 
of someone in the middle.

>Enjoy you rapturous stay in the
>NeoCon wing of the Matrix ....
>
>Kokopelli rules  ;-)
>
What does that mean?




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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Apr 22 03:42:57 2007
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=20

The headline in my newspaper of Saturday Feb. 3, 2007 said, =93GLOBAL =
WARNING-
If nothing is done to combat greenhouse gases, extreme weather could =
kill 1
million people by 2100=85

=20

I am greatly concerned about the =93global warming hysteria=94 that is =
being
foisted upon the public.  I recall a news caster six weeks before saying
that Europe had just experienced the warmest autumn in 500 years.  Do =
you
realize what that means?  It means that 500 years ago it was warmer, and
that human activity had nothing to do with it!  It is well known to some
historians that the period from 900 to 1100 AD was also warmer than =
today by
about three degrees, and human activity had nothing to do with that =
either!
Mars is even heating up.  I can=92t wait to be told what part of my =
lifestyle
is causing the Martian heat wave!

=20

There are mammoths frozen in the Siberian tundra with flesh still =
intact,
and tropical vegetation in their mouths.  When discovered in the =
1800=92s, the
meat was still edible! The stuff in my freezer isn=92t fit to eat after =
five
years. So, how old can these animals be?   Clearly, Siberia was a =
tropical
climate in the recent past.  That warm period cannot possibly be the =
fault
of the human race.

=20

Scientists know these things, but they are being threatened to shut up =
about
it.  There are many scientists who disagree with the hypothesis that we =
are
causing global warming, but they are becoming less vocal as they =
consider
the loss of funding and loss of career if they continue to say what they
really believe.  Heidi Cullen of the Weather Channel recently said that =
any
weather person who did not believe in =93global warming=94 should be =
fired!  The
coercion continues!

=20

In the late 70=92s the media was scaring us with predictions from =
reputable
researchers about the coming ice age.  These scientists were not idiots.
Why has the story turned 180 degrees in the past 20 yrs? =20

=20

Is there some kind of agenda here?  There sure is!  With our public =
school
children forced to watch Al Gore=92s movie over and over again, and his =
recent
rant before Congress, he has herded the US leadership and general =
population
into a vulnerable position. He can now, with his established business
enterprises, corral billions of dollars from gullible people by selling =
them
bogus carbon credits!

=20

We are being told that we must reduce our production of greenhouse =
gases,
including CO2.  Plants and trees love CO2.  They must have it to =
survive.
They would grow much faster if CO2 levels were two or three times =
higher.
Nursery people know this and they inject CO2 into their green houses to
dramatically increase growth rates. =20

=20

CO2 is the natural byproduct of combustion.  It is a direct measure of a
civilization=92s prosperity; the more controlled per capita production =
of CO2,
the higher the standard of living.  For us to significantly reduce CO2
emissions by conservation, we must dramatically reduce our quality of =
life.
The resulting downward spiral of the world economy could ultimately =
cause
more death and destruction than =93global warming=94.

=20

Through the ages the sun heats up, the sun cools down, and there is =
nothing
we can do about it.  If the sun burps, we burn; if the sun sneezes, we
freeze.  We are presently in a natural warming trend.  It is arrogance =
to
think we are causing it.  If we are too puny to cause it, then we are
definitely too puny to fix it.  We shouldn=92t live in fear.  As long as =
God
has His hand on the sun=92s thermostat, we will be alright.  But, we =
live in
an age where much of the world=92s leadership and this forum believe =
that we
ourselves are all the god we have, and all the god we need.

=20

We cannot save civilization by dismantling civilization.  When humans
endeavor to solve god sized problems by our own inadequate efforts, we =
can
only expect to create for ourselves a hell on earth.  As the global =
warming
issue finds its way into the legislative process we are on the verge of
making some really bad laws that will hurt all of us.

=20

Don=92t misunderstand me.  I=92m all for conservation, alternate energy, =
and
getting off of oil dependency.  I have spent thousands of my own dollars =
on
PAGD and cavitation experiments, trying to discover something that will
help.  But, let=92s not be stupid by making crippling decisions that =
will
cause the human race to lose its hold on civilization.  We will only =
have
the resources to solve our problems while working from a position of
prosperity, not poverty.

=20

Jeffrey L Fink, B.S. Aerospace Engineering VA Tech

=20


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20
Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771 - Release Date: 4/21/2007
11:56 AM
=20

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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>The headline in my newspaper of Saturday Feb. 3, 2007 said,
&#8220;GLOBAL WARNING- If nothing is done to combat greenhouse gases, =
extreme
weather could kill 1 million people by =
2100&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>I am greatly concerned about the &#8220;global warming =
hysteria&#8221;
that is being foisted upon the public.&nbsp; I recall a news caster six =
weeks before
saying that <st1:place w:st=3D"on">Europe</st1:place> had just =
experienced the
warmest autumn in 500 years.&nbsp; Do you realize what that means?&nbsp; =
It means that
500 years ago it was warmer, and that human activity had nothing to do =
with
it!&nbsp; It is well known to some historians that the period from 900 =
to 1100 AD
was also warmer than today by about three degrees, and human activity =
had
nothing to do with that either!&nbsp; Mars is even heating up.&nbsp; I =
can&#8217;t wait
to be told what part of my lifestyle is causing the Martian heat =
wave!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>There are mammoths frozen in the Siberian tundra with flesh =
still intact,
and tropical vegetation in their mouths.&nbsp; When discovered in the =
1800&#8217;s,
the meat was still edible! The stuff in my freezer isn&#8217;t fit to =
eat after
five years. So, how old can these animals be?&nbsp; &nbsp;Clearly, =
<st1:place w:st=3D"on">Siberia</st1:place>
was a tropical climate in the recent past.&nbsp; That warm period cannot =
possibly be
the fault of the human race.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Scientists know these things, but they are being threatened to =
shut up
about it.&nbsp; There are many scientists who disagree with the =
hypothesis that we
are causing global warming, but they are becoming less vocal as they =
consider
the loss of funding and loss of career if they continue to say what they =
really
believe.&nbsp; Heidi Cullen of the Weather Channel recently said that =
any weather
person who did not believe in &#8220;global warming&#8221; should be =
fired!&nbsp;
The coercion continues!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>In the late 70&#8217;s the media was scaring us with predictions =
from
reputable researchers about the coming ice age. &nbsp;These scientists =
were not
idiots.&nbsp; Why has the story turned 180 degrees in the past 20 =
yrs?&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Is there some kind of agenda here?&nbsp; There sure is!&nbsp; =
With our public
school children forced to watch Al Gore&#8217;s movie over and over =
again, and
his recent rant before Congress, he has herded the US leadership and =
general
population into a vulnerable position. He can now, with his established
business enterprises, corral billions of dollars from gullible people by
selling them bogus carbon credits!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>We are being told that we must reduce our production of =
greenhouse
gases, including CO2.&nbsp; Plants and trees love CO2.&nbsp; They must =
have it to
survive.&nbsp; They would grow much faster if CO2 levels were two or =
three times
higher.&nbsp; Nursery people know this and they inject CO2 into their =
green houses
to dramatically increase growth rates.&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>CO2 is the natural byproduct of combustion.&nbsp; It is a direct =
measure of
a civilization&#8217;s prosperity; the more controlled per capita =
production of
CO2, the higher the standard of living.&nbsp; For us to significantly =
reduce CO2
emissions by conservation, we must dramatically reduce our quality of =
life.&nbsp;
The resulting downward spiral of the world economy could ultimately =
cause more
death and destruction than &#8220;global =
warming&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Through the ages the sun heats up, the sun cools down, and there =
is
nothing we can do about it.&nbsp; If the sun burps, we burn; if the sun =
sneezes, we
freeze.&nbsp; We are presently in a natural warming trend.&nbsp; It is =
arrogance to think
we are causing it.&nbsp; If we are too puny to cause it, then we are =
definitely too
puny to fix it.&nbsp; We shouldn&#8217;t live in fear.&nbsp; As long as =
God has His hand
on the sun&#8217;s thermostat, we will be alright.&nbsp; But, we live in =
an age
where much of the world&#8217;s leadership and this forum believe that =
we
ourselves are all the god we have, and all the god we =
need.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>We cannot save civilization by dismantling civilization.&nbsp; =
When humans
endeavor to solve god sized problems by our own inadequate efforts, we =
can only
expect to create for ourselves a hell on earth.&nbsp; As the global =
warming issue
finds its way into the legislative process we are on the verge of making =
some
really bad laws that will hurt all of us.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Don&#8217;t misunderstand me.&nbsp; I&#8217;m all for =
conservation,
alternate energy, and getting off of oil dependency.&nbsp; I have spent =
thousands of
my own dollars on PAGD and cavitation experiments, trying to discover =
something
that will help.&nbsp; But, let&#8217;s not be stupid by making crippling =
decisions
that will cause the human race to lose its hold on civilization.&nbsp; =
We will only
have the resources to solve our problems while working from a position =
of
prosperity, not poverty.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Jeffrey L Fink, B.S. <st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City =
w:st=3D"on">Aerospace
  Engineering</st1:City> <st1:State =
w:st=3D"on">VA</st1:State></st1:place> Tech<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>No virus found in this outgoing message.<BR>
Checked by AVG Free Edition.<BR>
Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771 - Release Date: 4/21/2007 =
11:56 AM<BR>
</FONT> </P>

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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 00:01:35 +1200
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

It is already far warmer that it has been for an extremely long time, not
500 years.
I can't be bothered reading the rest of your ignorant post but if you don't
realize that the weather is warming up your a fool/idiot.

That warming 500-1000 years ago is a blip compared to this.

On 4/22/07, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> The headline in my newspaper of Saturday Feb. 3, 2007 said, "GLOBAL
> WARNING- If nothing is done to combat greenhouse gases, extreme weather
> could kill 1 million people by 2100=85
>
>
>
> I am greatly concerned about the "global warming hysteria" that is being
> foisted upon the public.  I recall a news caster six weeks before saying
> that Europe had just experienced the warmest autumn in 500 years.  Do you
> realize what that means?  It means that 500 years ago it was warmer, and
> that human activity had nothing to do with it!  It is well known to some
> historians that the period from 900 to 1100 AD was also warmer than today=
 by
> about three degrees, and human activity had nothing to do with that eithe=
r!
> Mars is even heating up.  I can't wait to be told what part of my lifesty=
le
> is causing the Martian heat wave!
>
>
>
> There are mammoths frozen in the Siberian tundra with flesh still intact,
> and tropical vegetation in their mouths.  When discovered in the 1800's, =
the
> meat was still edible! The stuff in my freezer isn't fit to eat after fiv=
e
> years. So, how old can these animals be?   Clearly, Siberia was a tropica=
l
> climate in the recent past.  That warm period cannot possibly be the faul=
t
> of the human race.
>
>
>
> Scientists know these things, but they are being threatened to shut up
> about it.  There are many scientists who disagree with the hypothesis tha=
t
> we are causing global warming, but they are becoming less vocal as they
> consider the loss of funding and loss of career if they continue to say w=
hat
> they really believe.  Heidi Cullen of the Weather Channel recently said t=
hat
> any weather person who did not believe in "global warming" should be fire=
d!
> The coercion continues!
>
>
>
> In the late 70's the media was scaring us with predictions from reputable
> researchers about the coming ice age.  These scientists were not idiots.
> Why has the story turned 180 degrees in the past 20 yrs?
>
>
>
> Is there some kind of agenda here?  There sure is!  With our public schoo=
l
> children forced to watch Al Gore's movie over and over again, and his rec=
ent
> rant before Congress, he has herded the US leadership and general populat=
ion
> into a vulnerable position. He can now, with his established business
> enterprises, corral billions of dollars from gullible people by selling t=
hem
> bogus carbon credits!
>
>
>
> We are being told that we must reduce our production of greenhouse gases,
> including CO2.  Plants and trees love CO2.  They must have it to survive.
> They would grow much faster if CO2 levels were two or three times higher.
> Nursery people know this and they inject CO2 into their green houses to
> dramatically increase growth rates.
>
>
>
> CO2 is the natural byproduct of combustion.  It is a direct measure of a
> civilization's prosperity; the more controlled per capita production of C=
O2,
> the higher the standard of living.  For us to significantly reduce CO2
> emissions by conservation, we must dramatically reduce our quality of lif=
e.
> The resulting downward spiral of the world economy could ultimately cause
> more death and destruction than "global warming".
>
>
>
> Through the ages the sun heats up, the sun cools down, and there is
> nothing we can do about it.  If the sun burps, we burn; if the sun sneeze=
s,
> we freeze.  We are presently in a natural warming trend.  It is arrogance=
 to
> think we are causing it.  If we are too puny to cause it, then we are
> definitely too puny to fix it.  We shouldn't live in fear.  As long as Go=
d
> has His hand on the sun's thermostat, we will be alright.  But, we live i=
n
> an age where much of the world's leadership and this forum believe that w=
e
> ourselves are all the god we have, and all the god we need.
>
>
>
> We cannot save civilization by dismantling civilization.  When humans
> endeavor to solve god sized problems by our own inadequate efforts, we ca=
n
> only expect to create for ourselves a hell on earth.  As the global warmi=
ng
> issue finds its way into the legislative process we are on the verge of
> making some really bad laws that will hurt all of us.
>
>
>
> Don't misunderstand me.  I'm all for conservation, alternate energy, and
> getting off of oil dependency.  I have spent thousands of my own dollars =
on
> PAGD and cavitation experiments, trying to discover something that will
> help.  But, let's not be stupid by making crippling decisions that will
> cause the human race to lose its hold on civilization.  We will only have
> the resources to solve our problems while working from a position of
> prosperity, not poverty.
>
>
>
> Jeffrey L Fink, B.S. Aerospace Engineering VA Tech
>
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771 - Release Date: 4/21/2007
> 11:56 AM
>

------=_Part_141207_32670348.1177243295543
Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

It is already far warmer that it has been for an extremely long time, not 5=
00 years.<br>I can&#39;t be bothered reading the rest of your ignorant post=
 but if you don&#39;t realize that the weather is warming up your a fool/id=
iot.
<br><br>That warming 500-1000 years ago is a blip compared to this.<br><br>=
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 4/22/07, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">=
Jeff Fink</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:revtec@ptd.net">revtec@ptd.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rg=
b(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">














<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US">

<div>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">The headline in my newspaper of Saturday Feb. 3, 2007 said,
"GLOBAL WARNING- If nothing is done to combat greenhouse gases, extreme
weather could kill 1 million people by 2100=85</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">I am greatly concerned about the "global warming hysteria"
that is being foisted upon the public.&nbsp; I recall a news caster six wee=
ks before
saying that Europe had just experienced the
warmest autumn in 500 years.&nbsp; Do you realize what that means?&nbsp; It=
 means that
500 years ago it was warmer, and that human activity had nothing to do with
it!&nbsp; It is well known to some historians that the period from 900 to 1=
100 AD
was also warmer than today by about three degrees, and human activity had
nothing to do with that either!&nbsp; Mars is even heating up.&nbsp; I can'=
t wait
to be told what part of my lifestyle is causing the Martian heat wave!</spa=
n></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">There are mammoths frozen in the Siberian tundra with flesh still intact=
,
and tropical vegetation in their mouths.&nbsp; When discovered in the 1800'=
s,
the meat was still edible! The stuff in my freezer isn't fit to eat after
five years. So, how old can these animals be?&nbsp; &nbsp;Clearly, Siberia
was a tropical climate in the recent past.&nbsp; That warm period cannot po=
ssibly be
the fault of the human race.</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">Scientists know these things, but they are being threatened to shut up
about it.&nbsp; There are many scientists who disagree with the hypothesis =
that we
are causing global warming, but they are becoming less vocal as they consid=
er
the loss of funding and loss of career if they continue to say what they re=
ally
believe.&nbsp; Heidi Cullen of the Weather Channel recently said that any w=
eather
person who did not believe in "global warming" should be fired!&nbsp;
The coercion continues!</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">In the late 70's the media was scaring us with predictions from
reputable researchers about the coming ice age. &nbsp;These scientists were=
 not
idiots.&nbsp; Why has the story turned 180 degrees in the past 20 yrs?&nbsp=
; </span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">Is there some kind of agenda here?&nbsp; There sure is!&nbsp; With our p=
ublic
school children forced to watch Al Gore's movie over and over again, and
his recent rant before Congress, he has herded the US leadership and genera=
l
population into a vulnerable position. He can now, with his established
business enterprises, corral billions of dollars from gullible people by
selling them bogus carbon credits!</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">We are being told that we must reduce our production of greenhouse
gases, including CO2.&nbsp; Plants and trees love CO2.&nbsp; They must have=
 it to
survive.&nbsp; They would grow much faster if CO2 levels were two or three =
times
higher.&nbsp; Nursery people know this and they inject CO2 into their green=
 houses
to dramatically increase growth rates.&nbsp; </span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">CO2 is the natural byproduct of combustion.&nbsp; It is a direct measure=
 of
a civilization's prosperity; the more controlled per capita production of
CO2, the higher the standard of living.&nbsp; For us to significantly reduc=
e CO2
emissions by conservation, we must dramatically reduce our quality of life.=
&nbsp;
The resulting downward spiral of the world economy could ultimately cause m=
ore
death and destruction than "global warming".</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">Through the ages the sun heats up, the sun cools down, and there is
nothing we can do about it.&nbsp; If the sun burps, we burn; if the sun sne=
ezes, we
freeze.&nbsp; We are presently in a natural warming trend.&nbsp; It is arro=
gance to think
we are causing it.&nbsp; If we are too puny to cause it, then we are defini=
tely too
puny to fix it.&nbsp; We shouldn't live in fear.&nbsp; As long as God has H=
is hand
on the sun's thermostat, we will be alright.&nbsp; But, we live in an age
where much of the world's leadership and this forum believe that we
ourselves are all the god we have, and all the god we need.</span></font></=
p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">We cannot save civilization by dismantling civilization.&nbsp; When huma=
ns
endeavor to solve god sized problems by our own inadequate efforts, we can =
only
expect to create for ourselves a hell on earth.&nbsp; As the global warming=
 issue
finds its way into the legislative process we are on the verge of making so=
me
really bad laws that will hurt all of us.</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">Don't misunderstand me.&nbsp; I'm all for conservation,
alternate energy, and getting off of oil dependency.&nbsp; I have spent tho=
usands of
my own dollars on PAGD and cavitation experiments, trying to discover somet=
hing
that will help.&nbsp; But, let's not be stupid by making crippling decision=
s
that will cause the human race to lose its hold on civilization.&nbsp; We w=
ill only
have the resources to solve our problems while working from a position of
prosperity, not poverty.</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;">Jeffrey L Fink, B.S. Aerospace
  Engineering VA Tech</span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-fam=
ily: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

</div>


<br>

<p><font size=3D"2">No virus found in this outgoing message.<br>
Checked by AVG Free Edition.<br>
Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771 - Release Date: 4/21/2007 11=
:56 AM<br>
</font> </p>
</blockquote></div><br>

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Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.
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John Berry wrote:-

<<The issue of man's fault in causing it is just a blame game and =
unimportant, it doesn't change the fact that it's happening>>

Actually, I think blame is vitally important in this situation. =
Scientists and environmentalists have been warning about various aspects =
of human induced climate change at least since the mid seventies. I was =
talking about it on the radio in 1992 (15 years ago...). During this =
period, the forces of consumerism, aided and abetted by the marketing =
and advertising industries, backed up by the Yuppie "greed is good" =
mentality and Reagan/Thatcherite economic theory, continued to promote =
their version of "the way" while downplaying and actively spreading =
misleading propaganda against those who were noticing, and trying to =
tell people about, an obvious truth. This simple truth is that consumer =
society economics is only sustainable while one is still living in an =
"empty world" i.e. a world where the atmosphere, oceans, land surface =
and animal species can absorb whatever mankind (or any out of control =
species) throws at them without being pushed beyond the sustainable =
limits. The truth is that we are now living in a "full world" and =
mankind's demands increasingly will disrupt the natural environment upon =
which we ultimately depend for a comfortable, liveable, situation, here =
on our only Planet. A minuscule population of humans can do whatever =
they feel like to the Planet and it won't have a significant effect - =
six billion plus are capable of changing things radically. The whole =
underpinnings of mainstream thought, society and economics are =
unconsciously based upon this "empty world" hypothesis. Please get out =
the way, if you can't lend a hand, cos the times they are a'changin'.=20
    All the people who clung on to their stupid, blinkered, limited =
world view, based upon an inadequately wide view of the world, while =
sneering at those greater minds who could see beyond the next wage =
packet or electoral term of office, are to blame. They should be held up =
to ridicule - it should be done in elementary schools! - it is our =
absolute duty to ridicule them "pour encourager les autres". As possibly =
one of the greatest of all examples of human stupidity and short sighted =
self interest, those lost 30 years of inaction need to be held up as a =
terrible example so that maybe, just maybe, the forces of ignorance and =
complacency and idiocy and evil won't get listened too as much in the =
future when the next problems come along.=20

Nick Palmer
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C784E3.2762FDB0
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<HTML><HEAD>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>John Berry wrote:-</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&lt;&lt;The issue of man's fault in causing it is just a blame game =
and=20
unimportant, it doesn't change the fact that it's =
happening&gt;&gt;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Actually, I think blame is vitally =
important in=20
this situation. Scientists and environmentalists have been warning about =
various=20
aspects of&nbsp;human induced climate change at least since the mid =
seventies. I=20
was talking about it on the radio in 1992 (15 years ago...). During this =
period,=20
the forces of consumerism, aided and abetted by the marketing and =
advertising=20
industries, backed up by the Yuppie "greed is good" mentality and=20
Reagan/Thatcherite economic theory, continued to promote their version =
of "the=20
way" while downplaying and actively spreading misleading&nbsp;propaganda =
against=20
those who were noticing, and trying to tell people about,&nbsp;an =
obvious truth.=20
This simple truth is that consumer society economics is only sustainable =
while=20
one is still living in an "empty world" i.e. a world where the =
atmosphere,=20
oceans, land surface and animal species can absorb whatever mankind (or =
any out=20
of control species)&nbsp;throws at them without being pushed beyond the=20
sustainable limits. The truth is that we are now living in a "full =
world" and=20
mankind's demands increasingly will disrupt the natural environment upon =
which=20
we ultimately depend for a comfortable, liveable, situation, here on our =
only=20
Planet. A minuscule population of humans can do whatever they feel like =
to the=20
Planet and it won't have a significant effect - six billion plus are =
capable of=20
changing things radically. The whole underpinnings of mainstream =
thought,=20
society&nbsp;and economics are unconsciously&nbsp;based upon this "empty =
world"=20
hypothesis. Please get out the way, if you can't lend a hand, cos the =
times they=20
are a'changin'.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; All the&nbsp;people =
who clung on=20
to their stupid, blinkered, limited world view, based upon an =
inadequately wide=20
view of the world, while sneering at those greater minds who could see =
beyond=20
the next wage packet or electoral term of office, are to blame. They=20
<U>should</U> be held up to ridicule - it should be done in elementary =
schools!=20
- it is our absolute duty to ridicule them "pour encourager les autres". =
As=20
possibly one of the greatest of all examples of human stupidity and =
short=20
sighted&nbsp;self interest, those lost 30 years of inaction need to be =
held up=20
as a terrible example so that maybe, just maybe, the forces of ignorance =
and=20
complacency and idiocy and evil won't get listened too as much in the =
future=20
when the next problems come along.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Nick Palmer</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:47:20 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.
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On 4/22/07, thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
> Jones Beene wrote:

> >Enjoy you(r) rapturous stay in the
> >NeoCon wing of the Matrix ....
> >
> >Kokopelli rules  ;-)
> >
> What does that mean?

The trickster rules:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokopelli

Terry (wishing he had a detachable penis)

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: John Berry
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 8:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Global Warning


> It is already far warmer that it has been for an extremely long time, not 
> 500 years.
> I can't be bothered reading the rest of your ignorant post but if you 
> don't realize that the weather is warming up your a fool/idiot.

Interesting to see that the side which questions global warming is the side 
which posts the more thought-out, calm posts, and yet still suggests that we 
should so something about pollution and oil dependancy.

But on the other side of the coin, all the pro-global warming side can do is 
namecall, demand that people get fired, talk about criminalizing use of 
incandescent light bulbs, talk about taking more of what little money we 
have away, and call "global warming denial" the equivalent of "holocaust 
denial", while using terms such as "idiot", "fool", etc.

Yes, it is easy to see which side is doing the thinking, and which side is 
the Reich of the Carbon Black Sun.

> That warming 500-1000 years ago is a blip compared to this.

Numbers to support this please.

--Kyle 

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On 4/23/07, Kyle R. Mcallister <weir@fdscience.org> wrote:
>
>
> > That warming 500-1000 years ago is a blip compared to this.
>
> Numbers to support this please.
>
> --Kyle


Watch "An Inconvenient Truth", there is a chart that addresses this.

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<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/23/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Kyle R. Mcallister</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:weir@fdscience.org">weir@fdscience.org</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>&gt; That warming 500-1000 years ago is a blip compared to this.<br><br>Numbers to support this please.<br><br>--Kyle</blockquote><div><br>Watch &quot;An Inconvenient Truth&quot;, there is a chart that addresses this. 
<br></div><br></div><br>

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BlankJohn Berry wrote..

It is already far warmer that it has been for an extremely long time, =
not 500 years.
I can't be bothered reading the rest of your ignorant post but if you =
don't realize that the weather is warming up your a fool/idiot.=20

Howdy John,

You may propose a solution to your fear of global warming. Perhaps you =
can enlist China, India and Africa to co-operate in a pollution free =
world.

Been my experience people are notional and not subject to change until =
and unless it is their particular ox being gored.( pun intended). The =
earth has a marvelous adaptive functionality.. it simple allows a =
species to die off if that species can''t adapt and survive.=20

Now speaking of mammoths being frozen in Siberia.. shucks , we have =
politicians in office in Texas... well.. err.. nevermind.. you wouldn't =
believe it.

Richard

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<DIV>John Berry wrote..</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It is already far warmer that it has been for an extremely long =
time, not=20
500 years.<BR>I can't be bothered reading the rest of your ignorant post =
but if=20
you don't realize that the weather is warming up your a fool/idiot. =
<BR></DIV>
<P>Howdy John,</P>
<P>You may propose a solution to your fear of global warming. Perhaps =
you can=20
enlist China, India and Africa to co-operate in a pollution free =
world.</P>
<P>Been my experience people are notional and not subject to change =
until and=20
unless it is their particular ox being gored.( pun intended). The earth =
has a=20
marvelous adaptive functionality.. it simple allows a species to die off =
if that=20
species can''t adapt and survive. </P>
<P>Now speaking of mammoths being frozen in Siberia.. shucks , we have=20
politicians in office in Texas... well.. err.. nevermind.. you wouldn't =
believe=20
it.</P>
<P>Richard</P></BODY></HTML>

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I don't see the logic in a lot of your words. You assume that because the Sun is 
part of the cause that humanity has somehow done nothing.  That's not true. What 
you said is well known and is openly discussed amongst climate scientists, 
including Dr. Brenda.

Sorry, I'll side with the mass majority here, who do indeed openly talk about 
all contributing factors such as the Sun.


Regards,
Paul




Jeff Fink wrote:
>  
> 
> The headline in my newspaper of Saturday Feb. 3, 2007 said, GLOBAL WARNING-
> If nothing is done to combat greenhouse gases, extreme weather could kill 1
> million people by 2100
> 
>  
> 
> I am greatly concerned about the global warming hysteria that is being
> foisted upon the public.  I recall a news caster six weeks before saying
> that Europe had just experienced the warmest autumn in 500 years.  Do you
> realize what that means?  It means that 500 years ago it was warmer, and
> that human activity had nothing to do with it!  It is well known to some
> historians that the period from 900 to 1100 AD was also warmer than today by
> about three degrees, and human activity had nothing to do with that either!
> Mars is even heating up.  I cant wait to be told what part of my lifestyle
> is causing the Martian heat wave!
> 
>  
> 
> There are mammoths frozen in the Siberian tundra with flesh still intact,
> and tropical vegetation in their mouths.  When discovered in the 1800s, the
> meat was still edible! The stuff in my freezer isnt fit to eat after five
> years. So, how old can these animals be?   Clearly, Siberia was a tropical
> climate in the recent past.  That warm period cannot possibly be the fault
> of the human race.
> 
>  
> 
> Scientists know these things, but they are being threatened to shut up about
> it.  There are many scientists who disagree with the hypothesis that we are
> causing global warming, but they are becoming less vocal as they consider
> the loss of funding and loss of career if they continue to say what they
> really believe.  Heidi Cullen of the Weather Channel recently said that any
> weather person who did not believe in global warming should be fired!  The
> coercion continues!
> 
>  
> 
> In the late 70s the media was scaring us with predictions from reputable
> researchers about the coming ice age.  These scientists were not idiots.
> Why has the story turned 180 degrees in the past 20 yrs?  
> 
>  
> 
> Is there some kind of agenda here?  There sure is!  With our public school
> children forced to watch Al Gores movie over and over again, and his recent
> rant before Congress, he has herded the US leadership and general population
> into a vulnerable position. He can now, with his established business
> enterprises, corral billions of dollars from gullible people by selling them
> bogus carbon credits!
> 
>  
> 
> We are being told that we must reduce our production of greenhouse gases,
> including CO2.  Plants and trees love CO2.  They must have it to survive.
> They would grow much faster if CO2 levels were two or three times higher.
> Nursery people know this and they inject CO2 into their green houses to
> dramatically increase growth rates.  
> 
>  
> 
> CO2 is the natural byproduct of combustion.  It is a direct measure of a
> civilizations prosperity; the more controlled per capita production of CO2,
> the higher the standard of living.  For us to significantly reduce CO2
> emissions by conservation, we must dramatically reduce our quality of life.
> The resulting downward spiral of the world economy could ultimately cause
> more death and destruction than global warming.
> 
>  
> 
> Through the ages the sun heats up, the sun cools down, and there is nothing
> we can do about it.  If the sun burps, we burn; if the sun sneezes, we
> freeze.  We are presently in a natural warming trend.  It is arrogance to
> think we are causing it.  If we are too puny to cause it, then we are
> definitely too puny to fix it.  We shouldnt live in fear.  As long as God
> has His hand on the suns thermostat, we will be alright.  But, we live in
> an age where much of the worlds leadership and this forum believe that we
> ourselves are all the god we have, and all the god we need.
> 
>  
> 
> We cannot save civilization by dismantling civilization.  When humans
> endeavor to solve god sized problems by our own inadequate efforts, we can
> only expect to create for ourselves a hell on earth.  As the global warming
> issue finds its way into the legislative process we are on the verge of
> making some really bad laws that will hurt all of us.
> 
>  
> 
> Dont misunderstand me.  Im all for conservation, alternate energy, and
> getting off of oil dependency.  I have spent thousands of my own dollars on
> PAGD and cavitation experiments, trying to discover something that will
> help.  But, lets not be stupid by making crippling decisions that will
> cause the human race to lose its hold on civilization.  We will only have
> the resources to solve our problems while working from a position of
> prosperity, not poverty.
> 
>  
> 
> Jeffrey L Fink, B.S. Aerospace Engineering VA Tech
> 
>  
> 
> 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
> Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771 - Release Date: 4/21/2007
> 11:56 AM
>  
> 

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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 02:50:11 +1200
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
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On 4/23/07, R.C.Macaulay <walhalla@cvtv.net> wrote:
>
>
> Now speaking of mammoths being frozen in Siberia.. shucks , we have
> politicians in office in Texas... well.. err.. nevermind.. you wouldn't
> believe it.
>
> Richard
>
I hate a mystery, finish your thought.

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<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/23/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">R.C.Macaulay</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:walhalla@cvtv.net">walhalla@cvtv.net</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">






<div bgcolor="#ffffff" background="?attid=0.1&amp;disp=emb&amp;view=att&amp;th=11219a963afb4073"><br><p>Now speaking of mammoths being frozen in Siberia.. shucks , we have 
politicians in office in Texas... well.. err.. nevermind.. you wouldn&#39;t believe 
it.</p>
<p>Richard</p></div>
</blockquote></div>I hate a mystery, finish your thought.<br>

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Jeff Fink wrote:
> It means that 500 years ago it was warmer, and
> that human activity had nothing to do with it!  It is well known to some
> historians that the period from 900 to 1100 AD was also warmer than today by
> about three degrees, and human activity had nothing to do with that either!



I sent Dr. Brenda an email with your quote, as I'd like to know the response 
from a PhD leading climate scientist. Most likely everyone at Vo has heard about 
the information you wrote, as it's all over the Internet and considered common 
knowledge. Obviously Dr. Brenda knows about this. The question is, what's the 
majority response of leading climate scientists.



Jeff Fink wrote:
 > Watch "An Inconvenient Truth", there is a chart that addresses this.


Yes, that was *released* to the public on May 24th, 2006, 11 months ago. The 
data used in the "An Inconvenient Truth" is well over a year old. BTW, I admire 
Al Gores very much for his intelligence, honesty, and truth seeking nature. I'm 
just saying that a one year movie should be considered out of date in regards to 
global warming data.



Regards,
Paul Lowrance

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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 04:02:38 +1200
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
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http://journal.copernicus.org/en/images/stories/film_reviews/ice_age2/ipcc_temp_past1000years2.jpg<hotter
than the last 1,000 years
http://www.grida.no/climate/vital/graphics/large/2.jpg <co2 and temperature
linked
http://cosmicvariance.com/wp-images/CO2.png <CO2 waaay up

You can't rule out data because it is a year old, otherwise there would be
no reason to pay attention to any data since it will be old someday, but hey
it's historical data it's meant to be old ;)

CO2 is a cause of global warming and it is ome we can easily do something
about, we have other things we can do but that's the easiest even if the sun
is contributing.

On 4/23/07, PHILIP WINESTONE <philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:
>
> The warming 500 - 1000 years ago is a blip compared to what, exactly?
>
> P.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: John Berry <aether22@gmail.com>
> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 10:10:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Global Warning
>
>
>
> On 4/23/07, Kyle R. Mcallister <weir@fdscience.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > That warming 500-1000 years ago is a blip compared to this.
> >
> > Numbers to support this please.
> >
> > --Kyle
>
>
> Watch "An Inconvenient Truth", there is a chart that addresses this.
>
>
>
>

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<a href="http://journal.copernicus.org/en/images/stories/film_reviews/ice_age2/ipcc_temp_past1000years2.jpg">http://journal.copernicus.org/en/images/stories/film_reviews/ice_age2/ipcc_temp_past1000years2.jpg</a> &lt;hotter than the last 1,000 years
<br><a href="http://www.grida.no/climate/vital/graphics/large/2.jpg">http://www.grida.no/climate/vital/graphics/large/2.jpg</a> &lt;co2 and temperature linked<br><a href="http://cosmicvariance.com/wp-images/CO2.png">http://cosmicvariance.com/wp-images/CO2.png
</a> &lt;CO2 waaay up<br><br>You can&#39;t rule out data because it is a year old, otherwise there would be no reason to pay attention to any data since it will be old someday, but hey it&#39;s historical data it&#39;s meant to be old ;)
<br><br>CO2 is a cause of global warming and it is ome we can easily do something about, we have other things we can do but that&#39;s the easiest even if the sun is contributing.<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/23/07, 
<b class="gmail_sendername">PHILIP WINESTONE</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:philip.winestone@rogers.com">philip.winestone@rogers.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">The warming 500 - 1000 years ago is a blip compared to what, exactly?<br><span class="sg">
<br>P.<br><br><br></span><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span class="q">----- Original Message ----<br>From: John Berry &lt;<a href="mailto:aether22@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
aether22@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>To: <a href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">vortex-l@eskimo.com</a><br></span><span class="q">Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 10:10:34 AM
<br>Subject: Re: [Vo]:Global Warning<br><br><br><br></span><div><span class="q"><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/23/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Kyle R. Mcallister</b> &lt;<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:weir@fdscience.org" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
weir@fdscience.org</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>&gt; That warming 500-1000 years ago is a blip compared to this.<br><br>Numbers to support this please.<br><br>--Kyle</blockquote></span><span class="q"><div><br>Watch &quot;An Inconvenient Truth&quot;, there is a chart that addresses this. 
<br></div><br></span></div><br>
</div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:30:09 -0700
From: Paul Lowrance <energymover@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity is NOW 'Unequivocal'
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"Evidence For Human-caused Global Warming Is Now 'Unequivocal'"
February 2, 2007
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070202085036.htm


Global effects:


http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au/images/EnergyUsage200Years.JPG


http://securingamerica.com/ccn/files/community/science_1.1.1.jpg


http://muller.lbl.gov/pages/IceAgeBook/Image4.gif


http://www.jri.org.uk/resource/images/fig2.jpg


---
"Most people don't seem to understand how drastic the recent changes in 
temperature are. They think of them as just part of the background warming that 
ended the ice ages. This graph should explain it:

Average earth temperature over the last 1000 years

Earth's average temperature from 1000 CE to 2100 CE.

The red line shows the average temperature of the earth over the last 1000 
years. The grey vertical line represents the year 2000. You notice the red line 
is pretty flat then suddenly starts to take off matching the curve of greenhouse 
gas production that came along with global industrialisation. The last part is 
an extrapolation based on computer models. There are several lines, outcomes 
dependent on how lackadaisical we are about global warming.

You might wonder how scientists can possibly know the average temperature going 
back 1000 years. There are many sources of information that can be used to cross 
check each other including ice cores, chemical analysis of carbon isotopes, tree 
rings of 1000 year old trees, plant remains in silt layered deposits and of 
course civil records."
http://mindprod.com/images/earthtemperature.jpg
---


http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/graphics/lawdome.gif



Regards,
Paul Lowrance

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Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 09:38:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
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Subject: [Vo]:The Rebirth of the Steamer?
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Stanley returns, may we presume? 

To get that trivial-pursuit-ish quip, one would need
to know that Henry Stanley was the penner of the line
"Dr. Livingstone, I presume?" at about the time that
the Stanley twins (no relation) demonstrated their
'Stanley Rocket' steam car, which set the world land
speed record at the Daytona Beach. And soon after -
expired into oblivion. Yet it is the longest-standing
officially recognized land speed record. The Steamer
enjoyed a boom in the early 1900s before eventually
being overtaken technologically by the internal
combustion engine- and the combined marketing power of
big-oil and Henry Ford.

What goes around comes around? ... as they say... or
in the alternative, if 4-cycles is good - then six is
better. Especially if the last two are 'free' energy
due to steam.

http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=467

Peter Kammler is a member of the Sustainable Energy
Forum and has a  background is in auto engineering,
including at Mercedes Benz. His non-copyrighted
article: "From tailpipe to the smoke stack" is one of
the most concise short essays on hybrid auto
efficiency available, but he missed this huge advance,
the neo-steamer, which is ready to be incorporated NOW
into a diesel double-hybrid. I have taken the liberty
of modifying that article to include this seamy
advance.

Despite some recent assertions, the battery-electric
car, the plug-in Prius, so to speak - will not make
much of a dent in net carbon emissions without a huge
nuclear investment - which itself takes too long to
implement to be of any help. Wind and solar are too
expensive to help in the short term.

The marginal unit of electricity always comes from a
fossil fuel power station, and the grid losses to the
home are greater than you may realize. There may be as
many as 7-10 transformers involved, and tens of miles
of lossy conductor for getting grid-power to the
garage to charge batteries. The batteries themselves
are rather lossy. It is a no-win proposition on a
level playing field. This is especially true when the
ICE gets to be higher efficiency than the grid power
plant. This has happened already. The whole bettery
scheme then falls apart unceremoniously.

Counting the losses at the power station into the
equation, a plug-in electric car, despite its own
efficiency, does little to mitigate carbon emissions.
It merely shifts the carbon output from the tailpipe
to the smoke stack. And it shifts the burden of road
taxes, which may not be good national policy, unless
carbon is actually reduced.

Generating the electricity from photovoltaic cells is
still forbiddingly expensive. Even if it was cheaper,
it would be more sensible to feed the electricity
directly into the grid, rather than into the battery
of an electric car. Unless, or even-if,  the 'better
battery' - the bettery - becomes available soon - i.e.
a 4-1 improvement in energy storage per weight, then
we are better off as a society to maximize the
advantages of the NON plug-in hybrid and make everyone
pay a fair share of road taxes.

There is a way to do this now (with the political
will-power).

First, back to the truth behind the Prius-type hybrid.
And let me add that I am driving a Prius now, love it,
and am not a critic. Toyota has proved itself to be
number one, no doubt. They can and will do better.

Except for its "on-board efficiency" which is far from
optimized (particular when a single speed diesel is
NOT being used) the Prius hybrid is still as much a
tax avoidance and "feel-good" scheme, than a bona fide
solution. That is because - in areas where fuel is
really precious - there are plenty of much cheaper
non-hybrid diesels (in Japan & Europe) which can match
or exceed the Prius in mileage (~50 mpg realistically)
and save you $8,000 of sticker shock. The Prius, it
seems, fits well (or by default) into a weird
political/marketing niche in the USA, but not
elsewhere. Ask yourself: why don't we have small
diesels (1.5 liter or less) here now?

At any rate, and on the theme of "a more perfect wold"
- when an equal share of road taxes are extracted per
auto by driven mileage, there can be a net
disadvantage to both the Prius and the plug-in hybrid
- due to capital amortization - with or without the
"bettery". And - we should never plan ahead, based on
a 'breakthrough'. And - on a level playing field, road
taxes should be shared by the amount of miles you
drive, unless you are actually serving a valid public
policy (by reducing CO2 instead of shifting it to a
smokestack in outer suburbia).

Are hybrid cars, then, still the (level playing field)
answer?  Yes, but they are still a long way from being
optimized. The Prius is a stop-gap solution only, and
an expensive one at that. But you will find few owners
who do not cherish it - warts and all. Any car with a
non-diesel combustion engine is still wasting too much
of the fuel it is converting into torque.  Hybrids
minimizes these losses significantly by simply turning
off the engine and recharging batteries in stop-and-go
situations. But there are other ways to build on this,
and to go far beyond by adding the 6-cycle steam
diesel. 

A Prius type hybrid - but a NON plug-in and a
bio-diesel, and with heat (steam) recapture, and
lesser batteries, not more - makes the most sense of
all the schemes which are  available.... at least
without a breakthrough in such things
peroxide-boosting or hydrogen boosting. Steam alone
can add 40% increase in mileage and take a 50 mpg auto
to 70 mpg with no loss in performance, AND at less
cost than a Prius, due to the elimination of the need
for lithium batteries, the complex drivetrain, and the
catalytic converter. 

However, doing this requires one of several "steam
overlay" technologies for the diesel which are out
there now, and which should be implemented hastily -
as they are already proved to the same degree as was
the original Prius. These alone can increase the Prius
mileage hugely, without the bettery (and even
regressing back to lead-acid for lower cost).

While idling or coasting, the storage battery in a any
hybrid is being charged (or the car is running
temporarily on electricity alone, which means there is
no idling at all). The car is braked by switching the
electric motor to generation mode, thus saving the
energy for a new acceleration process.  If the engine
itself is ultra efficient- then you simply do this
more often, but with less battieries ! It's a
no-brainer. 

>From the Prius computer readout, it is immediately
clear that this car is most effective in city traffic,
and that more expensive batteries are NOT a good
answer for the interstate. On long highway stretches,
the hybrid is a more expensive propostion than the
cheaper diesel !  This is where the six-cycle
steam-diesel can come-in, with an even greater
benefit.

In effect, this design overlays the diesel with a
steam engine, making a gigantic advance, with the only
downside being the need to carry water. It may be of
lower net cost to produce, as it eliminates the
catalytic converter and all of those precious metals.
BMW has an alternative steamer to the six cycle, but
it is a less efficient and more expensive steam
overlay technology. There are at least 2 other
possibilities.

http://tinyurl.com/r66lk

In its extreme form, the best solution for the
combustion engine, is to add steam on every other
power stroke- and to start with the very simple, small
turbocharged diesel. It is directly linked to a
generator which doubles as a starter. The expensive
Prius mechanism is eliminated. The diesel runs at a
set speed, therefore avoiding costly engine management
systems such as variable valve and injection timing. 

Four electric drive motors would be integrated
directly into the wheel rims. When braking, the drive
motors switch to generation mode. The recovered brake
energy is stored in the same cheap lead acid batteries
which store surplus electricity generated by the
diesel. A flywheel can be added, but there is no need
for huge expense in the lithium batteries, when the
engine itself is higher efficiency than even the one
which is used for the grid power plant ! "Mass
production" makes this all possible, and guess what
... it may make the mass produced 6-cycle steamer the
eventual engine of choice for the grid plant itself
(10,000 of them at a time ! since at nearly 60%
Carnot, it is better than any grid alternative).

Once the battery is charged, the diesel-steam engine
stops, until it is required to recharge the battery
again. Prius type motor management, computer,
auto-clutch, gearbox, drive train, differential, stub
axles - all gone. This car can be simplicity itself.
Since the engine is such a compact unit, it can be
taken out in minutes for service, or swap-out
replacement by two men. The unit can be placed
anywhere in the car, allowing a space saving layout.
Such design is ideal for city traffic in a tiny
3-wheeler.

The combined generator and starter also allows
incorporating a stop-start system, in which the engine
automatically switches off at stops and is restarted
in a fraction of a second by pushing the accelerator.
This combined flywheel/starter/generator is hardly
Toyota. It was used 60 years ago by the German car
maker DKW (now Audi) and was not perfected until the
Prius came along.

Between this extreme solution and the gas guzzler we
find the present hybrid epitomized by the Prius. It
probably combines too many drawbacks to justify its
respective advantage, since it is very complex, and
expensive to build. If it takes the average motorist
five or more years to recover the extra cost through
fuel savings. It does not need to be this complicated
!

Fuel cell cars, once the holy grail of automotive
engineers, basically are inefficient electric cars,
since hydrogen is not readily available except from
natural gas. H2 has to be separated out of water,
which in itself uses tons of needless energy. Until we
find ways to produce cheap hydrogen, the so-called
hydrogen economy is a pipe dream. We will solve this
problem eventually, but for *present planning* - once
again as with the bettery, we should not rely on a
breakthrough.

Bio-fuels are fine, provided they are produced from
organic waste or aquaculture, and not specially grown
food crops. One SUV tank of ethanol requires crops
that would feed a person for a whole year. Bio-diesel
or bio-butanol are preferred, but even with
petro-diesel, if-and-when the auto makers move the
full hybrid to a six-cycle steam diesel, then 80 miles
per gallon with Prius-like performance is all but
guaranteed.

Perhaps a friendly, genetically modified bacteria or
algae can be made to supply hydrogen or biodiesel from
organic waste, or to be produced at the grid power
plant itself; as no conceivable breakthrough in
photo-voltaic panels will allow us to make solar
electricity at reasonable cost. Or perhaps a
wind-solar-to-H2 facility will be competitive when the
H2 strorage problem is solved. In the meantime, there
are many improvements possible to the car as it is
which if implemented would cut in half the US
consumption of oil. 

The steam biodiesel is the main one which Detroit
should be retooling for - as we speak. Many of these
measures have not been cost-efficient in the past. But
now, with fuel prices remaining high, these
incremental improvements will pay for themselves.

Jones

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Jones Beene wrote:

>Despite some recent assertions, the battery-electric
>car, the plug-in Prius, so to speak - will not make
>much of a dent in net carbon emissions without a huge
>nuclear investment . . .

That is incorrect. There is a huge unused generating capacity at night -- more than enough to charge up electric cars. Furthermore, electric power generation and electric cars are far much efficient than gasoline cars, so even if we use only coal fired plants to run electric cars, that would still reduce CO2 emmissions. Half of U.S. power does not come from coal, including a lot of the nighttime baseline generation.

In this analysis, I am treating the plug-in car as a electric car, which is reasonable. Actually, it is slightly less efficient than a pure electric car, because of the dead weight of the gasoline motor during electric-power only operation.


Having said that, I agree that steam driven automobiles are interesting. The last generation of steam automobiles from the late 1920s turned on quickly because they had small boilers and a large flame. Combusion was clean & complete, so these cars can easily today's rigorous emmission tests. That is according to Jay Leno, who owns one. (Leno is an expert in automobiles, and writes a column in Popular Mechanics.)

- Jed



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Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 10:12:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Rebirth of the Steamer?
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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--- Jed Rothwell wrote:

> That is incorrect. There is a huge unused generating
> capacity at night -- more than enough to charge up
> electric cars. 

Capacity is not the problem. CO2 is still emitted at
night.

> Furthermore, electric power generation and electric
cars are far much efficient than gasoline cars, 

You are not paying attention!  You missed the entire
point of the post!

The six-cycle engine, which was what the essay was
about, is proving to be far more efficient (Carnot ~
60%) than any steam plant anywhere in the world. 

It is all about efficiency. Why else would I speculate
that grid steam plants themselves will probably
eventually use a version of this same small mass
produced engine?

We all simply must try to stay abreast of advances in
technology, if we wish to make effective decisions in
such a critically important arena. 

Jones

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Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 04:21:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: PHILIP WINESTONE <philip.winestone@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Global Warning
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--0-392280208-1177240919=:42912
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Nicely said Jeff.=0A=0AP.=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Jeff Fin=
k <revtec@ptd.net>=0ATo: vortex-l@eskimo.com=0ASent: Sunday, April 22, 2007=
 6:42:29 AM=0ASubject: [Vo]:Global Warning=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A =0A=0A =
=0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A<!--=0A=0A /* Style Definitions */=0A p.MsoNormal, l=
i.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal=0A=09{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size=
:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";}=0Aa:link, span.MsoHyperlink=0A=09{c=
olor:blue;text-decoration:underline;}=0Aa:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowe=
d=0A=09{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}=0Aspan.EmailStyle17=0A=09{=
font-family:Arial;color:windowtext;}=0A _filtered {margin:.75in 1.25in 1.0i=
n 1.25in;}=0Adiv.Section1=0A=09{}=0A-->=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A  =0A =0A=0AThe=
 headline in my newspaper of Saturday Feb. 3, 2007 said,=0A=93GLOBAL WARNIN=
G- If nothing is done to combat greenhouse gases, extreme=0Aweather could k=
ill 1 million people by 2100=85=0A =0A=0A  =0A =0A=0AI am greatly concerned=
 about the =93global warming hysteria=94=0Athat is being foisted upon the p=
ublic.  I recall a news caster six weeks before=0Asaying that Europe had ju=
st experienced the=0Awarmest autumn in 500 years.  Do you realize what that=
 means?  It means that=0A500 years ago it was warmer, and that human activi=
ty had nothing to do with=0Ait!  It is well known to some historians that t=
he period from 900 to 1100 AD=0Awas also warmer than today by about three d=
egrees, and human activity had=0Anothing to do with that either!  Mars is e=
ven heating up.  I can=92t wait=0Ato be told what part of my lifestyle is c=
ausing the Martian heat wave!=0A =0A=0A  =0A =0A=0AThere are mammoths froze=
n in the Siberian tundra with flesh still intact,=0Aand tropical vegetation=
 in their mouths.  When discovered in the 1800=92s,=0Athe meat was still ed=
ible! The stuff in my freezer isn=92t fit to eat after=0Afive years. So, ho=
w old can these animals be?   Clearly, Siberia =0Awas a tropical climate in=
 the recent past.  That warm period cannot possibly be=0Athe fault of the h=
uman race.=0A =0A=0A  =0A =0A=0AScientists know these things, but they are =
being threatened to shut up=0Aabout it.  There are many scientists who disa=
gree with the hypothesis that we=0Aare causing global warming, but they are=
 becoming less vocal as they consider=0Athe loss of funding and loss of car=
eer if they continue to say what they really=0Abelieve.  Heidi Cullen of th=
e Weather Channel recently said that any weather=0Aperson who did not belie=
ve in =93global warming=94 should be fired! =0AThe coercion continues!=0A =
=0A=0A  =0A =0A=0AIn the late 70=92s the media was scaring us with predicti=
ons from=0Areputable researchers about the coming ice age.  These scientist=
s were not=0Aidiots.  Why has the story turned 180 degrees in the past 20 y=
rs?  =0A =0A=0A  =0A =0A=0AIs there some kind of agenda here?  There sure i=
s!  With our public=0Aschool children forced to watch Al Gore=92s movie ove=
r and over again, and=0Ahis recent rant before Congress, he has herded the =
US leadership and general=0Apopulation into a vulnerable position. He can n=
ow, with his established=0Abusiness enterprises, corral billions of dollars=
 from gullible people by=0Aselling them bogus carbon credits!=0A =0A=0A  =
=0A =0A=0AWe are being told that we must reduce our production of greenhous=
e=0Agases, including CO2.  Plants and trees love CO2.  They must have it to=
=0Asurvive.  They would grow much faster if CO2 levels were two or three ti=
mes=0Ahigher.  Nursery people know this and they inject CO2 into their gree=
n houses=0Ato dramatically increase growth rates.  =0A =0A=0A  =0A =0A=0ACO=
2 is the natural byproduct of combustion.  It is a direct measure of=0Aa ci=
vilization=92s prosperity; the more controlled per capita production of=0AC=
O2, the higher the standard of living.  For us to significantly reduce CO2=
=0Aemissions by conservation, we must dramatically reduce our quality of li=
fe. =0AThe resulting downward spiral of the world economy could ultimately =
cause more=0Adeath and destruction than =93global warming=94.=0A =0A=0A  =
=0A =0A=0AThrough the ages the sun heats up, the sun cools down, and there =
is=0Anothing we can do about it.  If the sun burps, we burn; if the sun sne=
ezes, we=0Afreeze.  We are presently in a natural warming trend.  It is arr=
ogance to think=0Awe are causing it.  If we are too puny to cause it, then =
we are definitely too=0Apuny to fix it.  We shouldn=92t live in fear.  As l=
ong as God has His hand=0Aon the sun=92s thermostat, we will be alright.  B=
ut, we live in an age=0Awhere much of the world=92s leadership and this for=
um believe that we=0Aourselves are all the god we have, and all the god we =
need.=0A =0A=0A  =0A =0A=0AWe cannot save civilization by dismantling civil=
ization.  When humans=0Aendeavor to solve god sized problems by our own ina=
dequate efforts, we can only=0Aexpect to create for ourselves a hell on ear=
th.  As the global warming issue=0Afinds its way into the legislative proce=
ss we are on the verge of making some=0Areally bad laws that will hurt all =
of us.=0A =0A=0A  =0A =0A=0ADon=92t misunderstand me.  I=92m all for conser=
vation,=0Aalternate energy, and getting off of oil dependency.  I have spen=
t thousands of=0Amy own dollars on PAGD and cavitation experiments, trying =
to discover something=0Athat will help.  But, let=92s not be stupid by maki=
ng crippling decisions=0Athat will cause the human race to lose its hold on=
 civilization.  We will only=0Ahave the resources to solve our problems whi=
le working from a position of=0Aprosperity, not poverty.=0A =0A=0A  =0A =0A=
=0AJeffrey L Fink, B.S. Aerospace=0A  Engineering VA Tech=0A =0A=0A  =0A =
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ANo virus found in this outgoing message.=0A=0ACheck=
ed by AVG Free Edition.=0A=0AVersion: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.7/771=
 - Release Date: 4/21/2007 11:56 AM=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
--0-392280208-1177240919=:42912
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<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10p=
t"><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"=
>Nicely said Jeff.<br><br>P.<br><br><div style=3D"font-family: times new ro=
man,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">----- Original Message ----<br>=
From: Jeff Fink &lt;revtec@ptd.net&gt;<br>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<br>Sent: =
Sunday, April 22, 2007 6:42:29 AM<br>Subject: [Vo]:Global Warning<br><br>=
=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A<style>=0A<!--=0A=0A /* Styl=
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=0Aa:link, span.MsoHyperlink=0A=09{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}=
=0Aa:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed=0A=09{color:purple;text-decoration:=
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=0A _filtered {margin:.75in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}=0Adiv.Section1=0A=09{}=0A=
-->=0A</style>=0A=0A=0A=0A<div class=3D"Section1">=0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12p=
t;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Ti=
mes New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">The headline in =
my newspaper of Saturday Feb. 3, 2007 said,=0A=93GLOBAL WARNING- If nothing=
 is done to combat greenhouse gases, extreme=0Aweather could kill 1 million=
 people by 2100=85</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font fac=
e=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"> &nbsp;</=
span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman=
" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">I am greatly concerned about =
the =93global warming hysteria=94=0Athat is being foisted upon the public.&=
nbsp; I recall a news caster six weeks before=0Asaying that Europe had just=
 experienced the=0Awarmest autumn in 500 years.&nbsp; Do you realize what t=
hat means?&nbsp; It means that=0A500 years ago it was warmer, and that huma=
n activity had nothing to do with=0Ait!&nbsp; It is well known to some hist=
orians that the period from 900 to 1100 AD=0Awas also warmer than today by =
about three degrees, and human activity had=0Anothing to do with that eithe=
r!&nbsp; Mars is even heating up.&nbsp; I can=92t wait=0Ato be told what pa=
rt of my lifestyle is causing the Martian heat wave!</span></font></p> =0A=
=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 12pt;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 1=
2pt;">There are mammoths frozen in the Siberian tundra with flesh still int=
act,=0Aand tropical vegetation in their mouths.&nbsp; When discovered in th=
e 1800=92s,=0Athe meat was still edible! The stuff in my freezer isn=92t fi=
t to eat after=0Afive years. So, how old can these animals be?&nbsp; &nbsp;=
Clearly, Siberia =0Awas a tropical climate in the recent past.&nbsp; That w=
arm period cannot possibly be=0Athe fault of the human race.</span></font><=
/p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">=
<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 12pt;">Scientists know these things, but they are being threatened =
to shut up=0Aabout it.&nbsp; There are many scientists who disagree with th=
e hypothesis that we=0Aare causing global warming, but they are becoming le=
ss vocal as they consider=0Athe loss of funding and loss of career if they =
continue to say what they really=0Abelieve.&nbsp; Heidi Cullen of the Weath=
er Channel recently said that any weather=0Aperson who did not believe in =
=93global warming=94 should be fired!&nbsp;=0AThe coercion continues!</span=
></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" si=
ze=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 12pt;">In the late 70=92s the media was scaring us with pred=
ictions from=0Areputable researchers about the coming ice age. &nbsp;These =
scientists were not=0Aidiots.&nbsp; Why has the story turned 180 degrees in=
 the past 20 yrs?&nbsp; </span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"> &n=
bsp;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New=
 Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">Is there some kind of a=
genda here?&nbsp; There sure is!&nbsp; With our public=0Aschool children fo=
rced to watch Al Gore=92s movie over and over again, and=0Ahis recent rant =
before Congress, he has herded the US leadership and general=0Apopulation i=
nto a vulnerable position. He can now, with his established=0Abusiness ente=
rprises, corral billions of dollars from gullible people by=0Aselling them =
bogus carbon credits!</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font =
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"> &nbsp=
;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Ro=
man" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">We are being told that we =
must reduce our production of greenhouse=0Agases, including CO2.&nbsp; Plan=
ts and trees love CO2.&nbsp; They must have it to=0Asurvive.&nbsp; They wou=
ld grow much faster if CO2 levels were two or three times=0Ahigher.&nbsp; N=
ursery people know this and they inject CO2 into their green houses=0Ato dr=
amatically increase growth rates.&nbsp; </span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 12pt;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font=
 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">CO2 i=
s the natural byproduct of combustion.&nbsp; It is a direct measure of=0Aa =
civilization=92s prosperity; the more controlled per capita production of=
=0ACO2, the higher the standard of living.&nbsp; For us to significantly re=
duce CO2=0Aemissions by conservation, we must dramatically reduce our quali=
ty of life.&nbsp;=0AThe resulting downward spiral of the world economy coul=
d ultimately cause more=0Adeath and destruction than =93global warming=94.<=
/span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roma=
n" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =
=0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">Through the ages the sun heats up, the sun coo=
ls down, and there is=0Anothing we can do about it.&nbsp; If the sun burps,=
 we burn; if the sun sneezes, we=0Afreeze.&nbsp; We are presently in a natu=
ral warming trend.&nbsp; It is arrogance to think=0Awe are causing it.&nbsp=
; If we are too puny to cause it, then we are definitely too=0Apuny to fix =
it.&nbsp; We shouldn=92t live in fear.&nbsp; As long as God has His hand=0A=
on the sun=92s thermostat, we will be alright.&nbsp; But, we live in an age=
=0Awhere much of the world=92s leadership and this forum believe that we=0A=
ourselves are all the god we have, and all the god we need.</span></font></=
p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><=
span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 12pt;">We cannot save civilization by dismantling civilization.&nbsp; =
When humans=0Aendeavor to solve god sized problems by our own inadequate ef=
forts, we can only=0Aexpect to create for ourselves a hell on earth.&nbsp; =
As the global warming issue=0Afinds its way into the legislative process we=
 are on the verge of making some=0Areally bad laws that will hurt all of us=
.</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Ro=
man" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =
=0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">Don=92t misunderstand me.&nbsp; I=92m all for =
conservation,=0Aalternate energy, and getting off of oil dependency.&nbsp; =
I have spent thousands of=0Amy own dollars on PAGD and cavitation experimen=
ts, trying to discover something=0Athat will help.&nbsp; But, let=92s not b=
e stupid by making crippling decisions=0Athat will cause the human race to =
lose its hold on civilization.&nbsp; We will only=0Ahave the resources to s=
olve our problems while working from a position of=0Aprosperity, not povert=
y.</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New R=
oman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p>=
 =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">Jeffrey L Fink, B.S. Aerospace=0A  Engineerin=
g VA Tech</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Aria=
l" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;<=
/span></font></p> =0A=0A</div>=0A=0A<br>=0A=0A<p><font size=3D"2">No virus =
found in this outgoing message.<br>=0AChecked by AVG Free Edition.<br>=0AVe=
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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Apr 22 11:43:51 2007
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Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 14:43:38 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell@mindspring.com>
Reply-To: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Rebirth of the Steamer?
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Jones Beene wrote:

>> That is incorrect. There is a huge unused generating
>> capacity at night -- more than enough to charge up
>> electric cars. 
>
>Capacity is not the problem. CO2 is still emitted at
>night.

But as I said, only half of the generators are coal. The others are gas which is as much as 60% efficient and can be built close to cities, or hydro, nuclear and wind which emit no CO2. It would take a long time to increase nuclear capacity, but the U.S. could easily start building wind capacity at a rate equivalent to 4 nuclear power plants per year, which is what the world is doing. The power is intermittant but that does not matter for recharging cars overnight, with intelligent power meters.


>The six-cycle engine, which was what the essay was
>about, is proving to be far more efficient (Carnot ~
>60%) than any steam plant anywhere in the world. 

That is no more efficient than a combined cycle plant, although it might be cheaper. See:

http://www.umweltbundesamt.at/fileadmin/site/umweltthemen/industrie/IPPC_Konferenz/Tauschitz.pdf

Regarding hybrid automobile performance on highways, tests have shown that increasing the battery capacity does improve efficiency, especially on long hills. With today's Prius, you can see the battery saturate halfway up a large hill. (You shouldn't watch that display if you are driving -- it is worse than talking on a cell phone!) Plug-in hybrids have very large battery capacity.

The 2008 model Prius is expected to have city gas mileage at about 100 mpg, compared to 60 mpg today.

- Jed



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Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:06:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Subject: [Vo]:Most efficient small diesel ?
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A google search for the most efficient production
diesel turns up many candidates overseas, but zero
made in the USA. Ours are typically larger V8 designs
of over 5 liters, used in trucks

Among the best is a 35 year old engine design. The
Peugeot 205 diesel (1.9 liter) of one respondent to a
survey was made in 1991. He says it has 120k miles yet
still gets over 60mpg on every tank -motorway (80mph)
or round town even "towing a trailer I still get over
60 mpg." 

Very unscientific, but typical of other claims for
this engine. If Michele is tuned-in, perhaps he would
have some comment on this or other Euro-diesel
engines. In the USA, we seem to have been really
screwed, legislatively, by not having access to
anything close.

This engine, designed in the 1970's in France has a
few quirks but is claimed by some to be by far the
most efficient small diesel engine ever produced. VW
also has a claim for that distinction in Germany and
did import one into the USA 30 years ago, which nobody
wanted then (hard to cold-start for one thing).
Needless to say, both engines are now banned for
import into the USA. Go figure. 

Well ... having some experience with Peugeots, they
are generally not competitive quality-wise with the
Japanese here anyway - but GM or Ford should at least
be importing the engine, no ?

I would think that if this design were converted to
the 6-cycle steam version, and then fitted out as a
single speed hybrid - it  would get 75-80 mpg easy...
This is the kind of thing GM needs for credibility -
even if it is not a huge seller.

Jones

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Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 12:36:44 -0700
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To:  vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]:Googles "Earth day" icon
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Google as usual has a cool icon.  Today's Earth day.  See the attached image to 
this post or just go to http://google.com today


Paul Lowrance

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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Rebirth of the Steamer?
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--- Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> The others are gas [natural gas] which is as much as
60% efficient
> and can be built close to cities...

That number would only happen with co-genration, but -
OK - lets assume that it is just as accurate as the
estimate for the Crower  6-cycle. 

Even so - when you send that power across 10-20 miles
of lossy conductor, and then through at least 4
transformers (probably more), what had initially
looked like a 60% number back at the power plant is
now down to 50% or less at your garage. But the worst
is yet to come.

Even the best batteries will return only 75% of the
power put into them.

Therefore when evaluating the net carbon which must be
burned to get a certain amount of torque at the
wheels, the figure which must be used for the plug-in
hybrid, is .75 x .50, which is only 37.5% net
efficiency - and that is even when the power plant
operates at 60% Carnot.

OTOH - when we are presented with the option of a
6-cycle-steam ICE diesel, which can also operate at
that lofty effiicency of 60% Carnot - in that case
there are no losses like the conductor and transformer
and battery losses.

The bottom line is that the ultra-efficient steam
6-cycle diesel is FAR preferable to the plug-in hybid
in terms of net carbon released. 

Cost may be another issue, since transportation fuel
bears a high tax burden, and since utilities have a
lot of buying-power - but that is totally artificial
and as far as policy decisions go - "on a level
playing field" there is NO valid comparison: the
plug-in hybrid makes zero sense at all - if the
efficiency of the small diesel is in the same range as
the efficiency of the power plant - which is the
claim.

There will be those who say that Bruce Crower's design
is not yet proved at the level of the automobile. 
Until a major player gets involved, this will remain
the problem. We need on-the-road experience and data.

After all, he may be a good mechanic and a great
inventor, but like all inventors he is a "Crower", so
to speak <g>...

Jones


From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Apr 22 13:55:35 2007
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Subject: [Vo]:Induction Heating of Earth
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Here is a concise description of the amount of solar radiation
received by the earth from the sun.  These are figures most vorts
are probably familiar with.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/nielsens/solrad.html


A short quote from this site:

 "The energy intercepted by the Earth over a period of one year is
 equal to the energy emitted by the Sun in just 14 milliseconds.
 To put it another way, solar energy captured by the Earth over
 a period of 1000 years is equal to the energy produced by the 
 Sun in just only 14 seconds."

All of this would be electromagnetic radiation of various
wavelengths and obviously the amount intercepted would be
proportionate to the square of the distance from the sun.

But an idea has been rattling around in my head for the past
year or so, and I'm afraid I simply don't have the knowledge
of physics or the related math to quantify it.  As has been
rather dramatically demonstrated of late, the sun is subject
to huge magnetic storms, indicating that the sun's net magnetic
field may vary substantially. Does it?

If this is the case, the sun would have a heating effect on the
earth not attributable to the small amount of EM radiation 
intercepted by the earth.  The varying magnetic field of the
sun would subject the earth to a tranfer of energy by a near-
field effect not proportional to the square of the distance,
but by electromagnetic induction.  The earth and other planets,
depending on their magnetic fields and electrical conductivity,
would absorb a much higher percentage of the energy emitted by
the sun in this fashion.

I really don't know how even to speculate on how much energy
could be transferred to the earth in this fashion, but it's 
food for thought, no?  I could be that this is what keeps the
molten metallic core of the earth hot.

M.




_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell@mindspring.com>
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Jones Beene wrote:

>> The others are gas [natural gas] which is as much as
>60% efficient
>> and can be built close to cities...
>
>That number would only happen with co-genration . . .

That is combined cycle, not co-gen. With co-gen you can get 80% or 90%, depending on the location and time of year. I.e., in downtown Sapporo in the middle of winter with an advanced gas generator you get back 90%.


>Even so - when you send that power across 10-20 miles
>of lossy conductor, and then through at least 4
>transformers (probably more), what had initially
>looked like a 60% number back at the power plant is
>now down to 50% or less at your garage.

The T&D losses (transmission and distribution) are not as bad as that. Over the average delivery distance, which is hundreds of miles in the U.S. I think, in the early 1990s T&D losses were about 8% and they were expected to fall to around 5% by now. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/NRELenergyover.pdf


>Even the best batteries will return only 75% of the
>power put into them.

More like 80% today. But in any case, even with a highly efficient Diesel or steam ICE, it is still far more efficient to use a hybrid design, for the recovery of braking energy and so on. It might as well be a plug-in hybrid. For one thing, the cost of coal or nuclear energy is 10 times cheaper than oil per megajoule.


>Therefore when evaluating the net carbon which must be
>burned to get a certain amount of torque at the
>wheels  . . .

This brings up another important point. At start up speeds, up to 10 mph, the torque from an electric motor beats a steam engine, and really beats a diesel or standard ICE.


>Cost may be another issue, since transportation fuel
>bears a high tax burden . . .

Oil is far more expensive than coal or nuclear power aside from any tax considerations. Plus, oil is subsidized by the cost of the Iraq war, $1 or $2 trillion and counting (taking into account the long term costs).


>"on a level
>playing field" there is NO valid comparison: the
>plug-in hybrid makes zero sense at all - if the
>efficiency of the small diesel is in the same range as
>the efficiency of the power plant - which is the
>claim.

On the contrary a small diesel in a hybrid arrangment makes the most sense of all. A hybrid improves diesel performance as much as any other motor. There is no reason to make them mutually exclusive. Why settle for a 60 mpg diesel when you can bump it up to 120 mpg with a hybrid?

- Jed



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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Rebirth of the Steamer?
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--- Jed 

> On the contrary a small diesel in a hybrid
> arrangment makes the most sense of all. A hybrid
> improves diesel performance as much as any other
> motor. 

Exactamundo - no contrario ! You must have
misunderstood my intent (or more likely it was too
hastily posted) if you thought that this was not my
exact message (with the possible refinement of the
6-cycle steam diesel, in place of the normal diesel.

The hybrid setup actually improves the diesel ICE
efficiency far BETTER than it does the gasoline
alternative, since a diesel is very sensitive to
single speed (RPM) optimization. 

The 6-cycle efficiency of >50% would only be possible
at at single engine speed - ergo the hybrid is
absolutely necessary to reach that efficiency goal.

Jones

BTW - for those who may want to look into this - the
Crower patent is on shakey ground. 6-cycle engines
have actually been used for over 100 years for
locomotives and ship engines. There is even a separate
patent sub-class for 6-cycle engines.

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Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:52:09 -0400
From: "john herman" <hermajohn@gmail.com>
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------=_Part_101608_8304638.1177282329885
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Dear Vo.,

   Can anyone let us know.... BBGB ....

(A)   what is-are the battery pack in the Prius automobile???
(B)    Watts...weight ....
(C)     Electric motor... type..... HP... weight???
(D)   WILL anyone let us know the actual parameters ...for  of... or
... with
           The general ::

            i]  HP for electric motor
            ii]  parameter[s] battery pack... type... eg... N MH or
other...?
             iii]   Gas engine
           iv]   Generator::::

              Energy budget

              Total weight

                Brake type and method

              Regeneration[s] type method RPM... and other    HMMM???....


         Are these questions too difficult for the owners of the Prius
auto???

           HMMM???

          Can or could this be made more effective????

         I hope to hear some or read some answers....
OR ...........  is this too difficult?

             HJ

 Thanks to John Steck:

------=_Part_101608_8304638.1177282329885
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<div>Dear Vo.,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; Can anyone let us know.... BBGB ....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>(A)&nbsp;&nbsp; what is-are the battery pack in the Prius automobile???</div>
<div>(B)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Watts...weight ....</div>
<div>(C)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Electric motor... type..... HP... weight???</div>
<div>(D)&nbsp;&nbsp; WILL anyone let us know the actual parameters ...for&nbsp; of...&nbsp;or ...&nbsp;with<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The general ::</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; i]&nbsp; HP for electric motor</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ii]&nbsp; parameter[s] battery pack... type... eg... N MH or other...?</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; iii]&nbsp;&nbsp; Gas engine</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; iv]&nbsp;&nbsp; Generator::::</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Energy budget</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Total weight</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Brake type and method</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Regeneration[s] type method RPM... and other&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HMMM???....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Are these questions too difficult for the owners of the Prius auto???</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HMMM???</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Can or could this be made more effective????</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I hope to hear some or read some answers....</div>
<div>OR ...........&nbsp; is this too difficult?</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HJ</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;Thanks to John Steck:</div>

------=_Part_101608_8304638.1177282329885--

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In reply to  john herman's message of Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:52:09 -0400:
Hi John,
[snip]
>Dear Vo.,
>
>   Can anyone let us know.... BBGB ....
>
>(A)   what is-are the battery pack in the Prius automobile???

A five second web search on "prius tech. specs" yields:-

http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/priustechspecs.html
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1945973,00.asp
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2007/toyota/prius/specifications/
http://www.motortrend.com/future/future_vehicles/112_0703_hybrid_cars/

and a direct search on prius at toyota yielded:

http://www.toyota.com/prius/specs.html
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition (capitalism) provides the motivation,
Cooperation (communism) provides the means.

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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 01:36:43 -0500
From: thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:Global Warning
References: <237186.75433.qm@web88002.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
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PHILIP WINESTONE wrote:

> Not only that, but Jeff didn't deny that global warming wasn't 
> happening (although that in itself is questionable - if we're 
> "allowed" to question the sacred GW Scriptures); he was simply saying 
> that the evidence (evidence, mind you) is that global warming has 
> happened before and will happen again.  Aside from anything else, I 
> find the arrogance, on many levels, of the 
> Global-warming-as-a-religion crowd, utterly insufferable.  Definitely 
> worth fighting, if only for that reason.
>
I agree. Dennis Prager has been interviewing other climate scientists 
who question G W on his program. I have previously mentioned Avery and 
Singer's Unstoppable Global Warming, every 1600 years. Then there are 
the charts shown in the video that I posted which show that ocean 
warming happens first, then atmospheric CO2 rises, a result just the 
opposite of what Algore contends, We've had some prime examples of G W 
zealots posting on this thread, and I think their arrogance rises to the 
level of insufferable.



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Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity is NOW 'Unequivocal'
References: <002e01c784e8$82ef2be0$c905a8c0@xptower> <a6f44cf60704220750j4e7f66d2qe8c5785d8d1e7d08@mail.gmail.com> <462B8D91.2080408@gmail.com>
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Paul Lowrance wrote:

> "Evidence For Human-caused Global Warming Is Now 'Unequivocal'"
> February 2, 2007

I agree, what we are discussing is the cause. I contend that we are 
seeing the convergence of several factors, solar irradiance, volcanic 
activity, and possibly a change in the aether, all of which are 
contributing to the observed increase in temperature. If you think it's 
hot now, just stick around, see Revelation 16.


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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 09:16:28 +0200
From: "David Jonsson" <david@djk.se>
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Subject: [Vo]:Forces in refraction effects
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------=_Part_132250_33214002.1177312588448
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I am really disappointed at Wikipedia users for not having anything on the
Fizeau effect. It is intuitive and logical.

Anyway I wonder if there is a force on a transparent medium as a beam enters
it from a region of lower refractive index. Since the beam is slowed down I
just assume there would be. This seems like a trivial problem but I don't
have time to think now:-)

If anyone can affirm this then we have a good clue to some astronomical
riddles.

David

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I am really disappointed at Wikipedia users for not having anything on the Fizeau effect. It is intuitive and logical.<br><br>Anyway I wonder if there is a force on a transparent medium as a beam enters it from a region of lower refractive index. Since the beam is slowed down I just assume there would be. This seems like a trivial problem but I don&#39;t have time to think now:-)
<br><br>If anyone can affirm this then we have a good clue to some astronomical riddles.<br><br>David<br><br><br><br>

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From: "Michel Jullian" <mj@exbang.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:Most efficient small diesel ?
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:04:21 +0200
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Hi Jones,

I am not an expert, all I can tell is that diesel cars of all sizes have =
become much more popular than gasoline cars over here in Europe, because =
gazole is considerably less expensive than gasoline, plus consumption is =
lower, plus the engine lasts longer, plus more recent models pollute =
less than same power gas models I am told. Japanese cars also have a =
good reputation over here, and most of them have an excellent diesel =
version.

Michel

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 9:06 PM
Subject: [Vo]:Most efficient small diesel ?


>A google search for the most efficient production
> diesel turns up many candidates overseas, but zero
> made in the USA. Ours are typically larger V8 designs
> of over 5 liters, used in trucks
>=20
> Among the best is a 35 year old engine design. The
> Peugeot 205 diesel (1.9 liter) of one respondent to a
> survey was made in 1991. He says it has 120k miles yet
> still gets over 60mpg on every tank -motorway (80mph)
> or round town even "towing a trailer I still get over
> 60 mpg."=20
>=20
> Very unscientific, but typical of other claims for
> this engine. If Michele is tuned-in, perhaps he would
> have some comment on this or other Euro-diesel
> engines. In the USA, we seem to have been really
> screwed, legislatively, by not having access to
> anything close.
>=20
> This engine, designed in the 1970's in France has a
> few quirks but is claimed by some to be by far the
> most efficient small diesel engine ever produced. VW
> also has a claim for that distinction in Germany and
> did import one into the USA 30 years ago, which nobody
> wanted then (hard to cold-start for one thing).
> Needless to say, both engines are now banned for
> import into the USA. Go figure.=20
>=20
> Well ... having some experience with Peugeots, they
> are generally not competitive quality-wise with the
> Japanese here anyway - but GM or Ford should at least
> be importing the engine, no ?
>=20
> I would think that if this design were converted to
> the 6-cycle steam version, and then fitted out as a
> single speed hybrid - it  would get 75-80 mpg easy...
> This is the kind of thing GM needs for credibility -
> even if it is not a huge seller.
>=20
> Jones
>

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Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW
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Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of =93global =
warming=94.
He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the warmest ever and =
you
buy it as gospel.

=20

There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility =
of
some on this forum scares me.

=20

It has been much warmer not so long ago.

=20

Here is another example if your attention span will allow:

=20

We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at elevations of 3000 =
to
5000 feet.  They like it cool and moist, but don=92t like extreme sub =
freezing
temps or strong winds.

=20

There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the Colorado rockies at
Florissant at an elevation over 8000 feet.  They are exhibited in place =
in
excavated pits.  I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.  They =
did
not look entirely like rock.  I asked about it at the visitor=92s =
center, and
was told that they are only 50% fossilized.=20

John. The rest is WOOD! =20

John. How old aren=92t they?

=20

Back in the 50=92s, before this site was protected, Mrs. Disney bought =
one of
these stumps for a birthday present for her husband.  I saw it on =
display
outside at Disneyland around 1995.  It was located right next to the =
lake
near Adventure Land.  Those of you who get to Disneyland may still be =
able
to see it if it hasn=92t rotted away by now.

=20

There are many things about this planet=92s history that don=92t line up =
with
present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making big expensive =
mistakes
by selectively ignoring certain historical data.

=20

Again I wonder.  What happened to the ice age we were threatened with in =
the
late 70=92s. =20

=20

It=92s ironic that many global warming events this past season were =
cancelled
due to extreme winter conditions.

=20

Jeff

=20

P.S.

=20

John. This is only my third post in over a year.  I read your stuff, and =
you
post almost everyday.  You could give me the courtesy of reading all of =
what
I said before you publicly call me an idiot, and perhaps point out =
specific
errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened.

=20


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20
Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007
8:18 PM
=20

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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions =
off of &#8220;global
warming&#8221;.&nbsp; He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now =
the
warmest ever and you buy it as gospel.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, =
and the gullibility
of some on this forum scares me.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>It has been much warmer not so long =
ago.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Here is another example if your attention span will =
allow:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at
elevations of 3000 to 5000 feet.&nbsp; They like it cool and moist, but =
don&#8217;t
like extreme sub freezing temps or strong =
winds.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the =
<st1:State
w:st=3D"on">Colorado</st1:State> rockies at <st1:City =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">Florissant</st1:place></st1:City>
at an elevation over 8000 feet.&nbsp; They are exhibited in place in =
excavated
pits.&nbsp; I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.&nbsp; They =
did not
look entirely like rock.&nbsp; I asked about it at the visitor&#8217;s =
center,
and was told that they are only 50% fossilized. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>John. The rest is WOOD!&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>John. How old aren&#8217;t =
they?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Back in the 50&#8217;s, before this site was =
protected, Mrs.
Disney bought one of these stumps for a birthday present for her =
husband.&nbsp;
I saw it on display outside at <st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Disneyland</st1:place>
around 1995.&nbsp; It was located right next to the lake near <st1:place =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName
 w:st=3D"on">Adventure</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType =
w:st=3D"on">Land</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>.&nbsp;
Those of you who get to <st1:place w:st=3D"on">Disneyland</st1:place> =
may still
be able to see it if it hasn&#8217;t rotted away by =
now.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>There are many things about this planet&#8217;s =
history that
don&#8217;t line up with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into =
making
big expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical =
data.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Again I wonder.&nbsp; What happened to the ice age we =
were
threatened with in the late 70&#8217;s.&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>It&#8217;s ironic that many global warming events =
this past
season were cancelled due to extreme winter =
conditions.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Jeff<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>P.S.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>John. This is only my third post in over a =
year.&nbsp; I
read your stuff, and you post almost everyday.&nbsp; You could give me =
the
courtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly call me an =
idiot,
and perhaps point out specific errors in my writings so that I may be =
enlightened.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>No virus found in this outgoing message.<BR>
Checked by AVG Free Edition.<BR>
Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 =
8:18 PM<BR>
</FONT> </P>

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Message-ID: <a6f44cf60704230411i5a55ce81s66fea429fe566693@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 23:11:58 +1200
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW
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There are plenty of out of place things around the world and warm
temperatures in the past few thousand years only explains a few of them.

With ice and snow vanishing (really old stuff) I do think there is evidence
for this warming to be real and significant.
With the CO2 linked so clearly to temperature I think it's risky to ignore
this.

There is simply more evidence that warming is happening than not, in fact
few are doubting that it's happening they just argue it's happened before or
that the cause isn't man made.

I came across a webpage the other day by chance that made some very very
good argument for the world being effected by a supervolcaino and IIRC that
was the cause of the middle ages warm patch.

In the end I have heard of lots of theories, and the thing that convinces me
that it is right to follow the mainstream (something i seldom do) is this:
War caused by oil.
Pollution caused by oil.
Assholes supported by oil, and I don't just mean Arab ones.
Quite frankly George Bush is enough reason for me.
And then there is the fact that I do research in the field of alternative
energy, shouldn't the question be why you on a FE based list support oil?

Even if there isn't yet global warming by any cause doesn't it seem like it
might be a good idea not to blindly pollute the world just because you
theorize it hasn't well and truly fucked us yet?

I guess in the end if I agree (imagine I tip the balance either way) with
conventional global warming then the worst that can happen is a cleaner
greener society that kicked a dirty habit before it became (too) deadly.
(That's if it isn't yet happening or even if unlimited pollution from oil
would never be an environmental disaster)

If however they are right and I propose you can't know they aren't and I
turn my back on conventional global warming (And support oil), then it's the
end of the world. (or the end of the world as we know it and the end for
many life forms, probably not humans)

Given those stakes I just don't see the point in arguing, the main economic
interest is in keeping oil and wars for oil going.
I like a contrarian point of view as much or more than the next member of
this list but you are asking me to back Oil grubbing war mongering
republicans like Bush over the Greens, sorry I just don't buy it.

I would put it to you that while you may doubt Global Warming you can't be
sure it isn't happening and whatever the cause you can't deny that cutting
CO2 levels (which have been artificially raised by man) may help.
If you were saying you believe more investigation is needed I'd agree with
you, if you wanted to look at other theories for the cause I'd agree but
you  are attacking people who are arguing that we shouldn't pollute the
earth.
(and except for the fear that it might dilute the message to those who
barely give a f*ck I am actively interested in other possible causes as long
as it remains out of view of the public who don't need to be given a mixed
message)

WTF is wrong with people, honestly with wars and governments manipulating
people with fake terrorist attacks (the rigged votes) isn't it just a bit
odd there are so many people fighting against people asking that we find a
better source of power and not pollute our planet.
With all that's going on people are attacking the greens, can someone
explain this to me!

Do you wear a cowboy hat?

Ok, sorry for the harsh words which are a result of frustration but can you
please explain your pro pollution fuck with nature stance because I don't
even slightly get it.

Please no kidding I really do want to understand.
BTW I don't post nearly enough for you to be reading me every day, but oh
well.
I did read your post in it's entirety.


On 4/23/07, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
>
>  Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global
> warming".  He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the warmest ever
> and you buy it as gospel.
>
>
>
> There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility of
> some on this forum scares me.
>
>
>
> It has been much warmer not so long ago.
>
>
>
> Here is another example if your attention span will allow:
>
>
>
> We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at elevations of 3000 to
> 5000 feet.  They like it cool and moist, but don't like extreme sub freezing
> temps or strong winds.
>
>
>
> There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the Colorado rockies at
> Florissant at an elevation over 8000 feet.  They are exhibited in place in
> excavated pits.  I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.  They did
> not look entirely like rock.  I asked about it at the visitor's center, and
> was told that they are only 50% fossilized.
>
> John. The rest is WOOD!
>
> John. How old aren't they?
>
>
>
> Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs. Disney bought one
> of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband.  I saw it on display
> outside at Disneyland around 1995.  It was located right next to the lake
> near Adventure Land.  Those of you who get to Disneyland may still be able
> to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now.
>
>
>
> There are many things about this planet's history that don't line up with
> present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making big expensive mistakes
> by selectively ignoring certain historical data.
>
>
>
> Again I wonder.  What happened to the ice age we were threatened with in
> the late 70's.
>
>
>
> It's ironic that many global warming events this past season were
> cancelled due to extreme winter conditions.
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> P.S.
>
>
>
> John. This is only my third post in over a year.  I read your stuff, and
> you post almost everyday.  You could give me the courtesy of reading all of
> what I said before you publicly call me an idiot, and perhaps point out
> specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened.
>
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007
> 8:18 PM
>

------=_Part_152889_24081917.1177326718114
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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There are plenty of out of place things around the world and warm temperatures in the past few thousand years only explains a few of them.<br><br>With ice and snow vanishing (really old stuff) I do think there is evidence for this warming to be real and significant.
<br>With the CO2 linked so clearly to temperature I think it&#39;s risky to ignore this.<br><br>There is simply more evidence that warming is happening than not, in fact few are doubting that it&#39;s happening they just argue it&#39;s happened before or that the cause isn&#39;t man made.
<br><br>I came across a webpage the other day by chance that made some very very good argument for the world being effected by a supervolcaino and IIRC that was the cause of the middle ages warm patch.<br><br>In the end I have heard of lots of theories, and the thing that convinces me that it is right to follow the mainstream (something i seldom do) is this:
<br>War caused by oil.<br>Pollution caused by oil.<br>Assholes supported by oil, and I don&#39;t just mean Arab ones.<br>Quite frankly George Bush is enough reason for me.<br>And then there is the fact that I do research in the field of alternative energy, shouldn&#39;t the question be why you on a FE based list support oil?
<br><br>Even if there isn&#39;t yet global warming by any cause doesn&#39;t it seem like it might be a good idea not to blindly pollute the world just because you theorize it hasn&#39;t well and truly fucked us yet?<br><br>
I guess in the end if I agree (imagine I tip the balance either way) with conventional global warming then the worst that can happen is a cleaner greener society that kicked a dirty habit before it became (too) deadly. (That&#39;s if it isn&#39;t yet happening or even if unlimited pollution from oil would never be an environmental disaster)
<br><br>If however they are right and I propose you can&#39;t know they aren&#39;t and I turn my back on conventional global warming (And support oil), then it&#39;s the end of the world. (or the end of the world as we know it and the end for many life forms, probably not humans)
<br><br>Given those stakes I just don&#39;t see the point in arguing, the main economic interest is in keeping oil and wars for oil going.<br>I like a contrarian point of view as much or more than the next member of this list but you are asking me to back Oil grubbing war mongering republicans like Bush over the Greens, sorry I just don&#39;t buy it.
<br><br>I would put it to you that while you may doubt Global Warming you can&#39;t be sure it isn&#39;t happening and whatever the cause you can&#39;t deny that cutting CO2 levels (which have been artificially raised by man) may help.
<br>If you were saying you believe more investigation is needed I&#39;d agree with you, if you wanted to look at other theories for the cause I&#39;d agree but you&nbsp; are attacking people who are arguing that we shouldn&#39;t pollute the earth.
<br>(and except for the fear that it might dilute the message to those who
barely give a f*ck I am actively interested in other possible causes as long as it remains out of view of the public who don&#39;t need to be given a mixed message)<br><br>WTF is wrong with people, honestly with wars and governments manipulating people with fake terrorist attacks (the rigged votes) isn&#39;t it just a bit odd there are so many people fighting against people asking that we find a better source of power and not pollute our planet.
<br>With all that&#39;s going on people are attacking the greens, can someone explain this to me!<br><br>Do you wear a cowboy hat?<br><br>Ok, sorry for the harsh words which are a result of frustration but can you please explain your pro pollution fuck with nature stance because I don&#39;t even slightly get it.
<br><br>Please no kidding I really do want to understand.<br>BTW I don&#39;t post nearly enough for you to be reading me every day, but oh well.<br>I did read your post in it&#39;s entirety.<br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">
On 4/23/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Jeff Fink</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:revtec@ptd.net">revtec@ptd.net</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

















<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">

<div>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global
warming".&nbsp; He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the
warmest ever and you buy it as gospel.</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility
of some on this forum scares me.</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">It has been much warmer not so long ago.</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Here is another example if your attention span will allow:</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at
elevations of 3000 to 5000 feet.&nbsp; They like it cool and moist, but don't
like extreme sub freezing temps or strong winds.</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the Colorado rockies at Florissant
at an elevation over 8000 feet.&nbsp; They are exhibited in place in excavated
pits.&nbsp; I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.&nbsp; They did not
look entirely like rock.&nbsp; I asked about it at the visitor's center,
and was told that they are only 50% fossilized. </span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. The rest is WOOD!&nbsp; </span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. How old aren't they?</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs.
Disney bought one of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband.&nbsp;
I saw it on display outside at Disneyland
around 1995.&nbsp; It was located right next to the lake near Adventure Land.&nbsp;
Those of you who get to Disneyland may still
be able to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now.</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There are many things about this planet's history that
don't line up with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making
big expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data.</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Again I wonder.&nbsp; What happened to the ice age we were
threatened with in the late 70's.&nbsp; </span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">It's ironic that many global warming events this past
season were cancelled due to extreme winter conditions.</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Jeff</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">P.S.</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. This is only my third post in over a year.&nbsp; I
read your stuff, and you post almost everyday.&nbsp; You could give me the
courtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly call me an idiot,
and perhaps point out specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened.</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

</div>


<br>

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</font> </p>
</blockquote></div><br>

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Message-ID: <a6f44cf60704230456s415e1088yd7978a43f5dcd718@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 23:56:59 +1200
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW
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Balls.
The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't based
on science, it's just a philosophy if you could call it that. (It's a stupid
ignorant assumption you are happy to risk the world to)
One thing you have to note is that there are 6 Billion of us puny humans,
the second thing is that I totally agree with you, human's can't effect the
CO2 level or the temperature.
Technology can however.

Ok, so they disputed it, should I take that to mean they refuted the data
that CO2 has been rising?
Because the evidence that CO2 effects global temperature is quite
undeniable.

I agree there is emotional nonsense but I think it is coming from deniers,
perhaps because believing that Global Warming is happening is disquieting
and people need to feel everything is ok, that's why people trust the
system, politicians and doctors even if there is lots of evidence to the
contrary.
It's why people turn a blind eye to the poisons in their food.
It's the same motivation that makes people not want to be responsible, not
really present.
So much of human existence is about hiding real feelings, real thought as
things are without preconceptions.
It is hard to really get to the core of people, people are used to being
shallow not deep.
Truth isn't our friend, nor is light.

Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies.

It isn't Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing.


On 4/23/07, PHILIP WINESTONE <philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:
>
> Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly
> refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph
> that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the
> Industrial Revolution.  These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but
> it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional
> nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others)
> can make a killing.
>
> The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is that we puny
> humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists,
> have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming.  Like I
> said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun dance.  Perhaps
> even try some solid science.
>
> P.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net>
> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM
> Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW
>
>  Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global
> warming".  He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the warmest ever
> and you buy it as gospel.
>
>
>
> There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility of
> some on this forum scares me.
>
>
>
> It has been much warmer not so long ago.
>
>
>
> Here is another example if your attention span will allow:
>
>
>
> We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at elevations of 3000 to
> 5000 feet.  They like it cool and moist, but don't like extreme sub freezing
> temps or strong winds.
>
>
>
> There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the Colorado rockies at
> Florissant at an elevation over 8000 feet.  They are exhibited in place in
> excavated pits.  I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.  They did
> not look entirely like rock.  I asked about it at the visitor's center, and
> was told that they are only 50% fossilized.
>
> John. The rest is WOOD!
>
> John. How old aren't they?
>
>
>
> Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs. Disney bought one
> of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband.  I saw it on display
> outside at Disneyland around 1995.  It was located right next to the lake
> near Adventure Land .  Those of you who get to Disneyland may still be able
> to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now.
>
>
>
> There are many things about this planet's history that don't line up with
> present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making big expensive mistakes
> by selectively ignoring certain historical data.
>
>
>
> Again I wonder.  What happened to the ice age we were threatened with in
> the late 70's.
>
>
>
> It's ironic that many global warming events this past season were
> cancelled due to extreme winter conditions.
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> P.S.
>
>
>
> John. This is only my third post in over a year.  I read your stuff, and
> you post almost everyday.  You could give me the courtesy of reading all of
> what I said before you publicly call me an idiot, and perhaps point out
> specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened.
>
>
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007
> 8:18 PM
>
>

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Balls.<br>The argument that us &#39;puny humans&#39; can&#39;t effect the environment isn&#39;t based on science, it&#39;s just a philosophy if you could call it that. (It&#39;s a stupid ignorant assumption you are happy to risk the world to)
<br>One thing you have to note is that there are 6 Billion of us puny humans, the second thing is that I totally agree with you, human&#39;s can&#39;t effect the CO2 level or the temperature.<br>Technology can however.<br>
<br>Ok, so they disputed it, should I take that to mean they refuted the data that CO2 has been rising?<br>Because the evidence that CO2 effects global temperature is quite undeniable.<br><br>I agree there is emotional nonsense but I think it is coming from deniers, perhaps because believing that Global Warming is happening is disquieting and people need to feel everything is ok, that&#39;s why people trust the system, politicians and doctors even if there is lots of evidence to the contrary.
<br>It&#39;s why people turn a blind eye to the poisons in their food.<br>It&#39;s the same motivation that makes people not want to be responsible, not really present.<br>So much of human existence is about hiding real feelings, real thought as things are without preconceptions.
<br>It is hard to really get to the core of people, people are used to being shallow not deep.<br>Truth isn&#39;t our friend, nor is light.<br><br>Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies.<br>
<br>It isn&#39;t Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing.<br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/23/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">PHILIP WINESTONE</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:philip.winestone@rogers.com">
philip.winestone@rogers.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">Then there&#39;s the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called &quot;hockey stick&quot; graph that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the Industrial Revolution.&nbsp; These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but it&#39;s difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can make a killing.
<br><br>The &quot;insufferable arrogance&quot; spoken of by others here, is that we puny humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists, have been largely ignored in the &quot;discussion&quot; on global warming.&nbsp; Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun
 dance.&nbsp; Perhaps even try some solid science.<br><span class="sg"><br>P.</span><span class="q"><br><br><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">----- Original Message ----<br>From: Jeff Fink &lt;
<a href="mailto:revtec@ptd.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">revtec@ptd.net</a>&gt;<br>To: <a href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
vortex-l@eskimo.com</a><br>Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM<br>Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW<br><br>


 


 

 

 

 

 

 





<div>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global
warming".&nbsp; He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the
warmest ever and you buy it as gospel.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility
of some on this forum scares me.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">It has been much warmer not so long ago.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Here is another example if your attention span will allow:</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at
elevations of 3000 to 5000 feet.&nbsp; They like it cool and moist, but don't
like extreme sub freezing temps or strong winds.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the
 Colorado rockies at Florissant 
at an elevation over 8000 feet.&nbsp; They are exhibited in place in excavated
pits.&nbsp; I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.&nbsp; They did not
look entirely like rock.&nbsp; I asked about it at the visitor's center,
and was told that they are only 50% fossilized. </span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. The rest is WOOD!&nbsp; </span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. How old aren't they?</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs.
Disney bought one of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband.&nbsp;
I saw it on display outside at Disneyland 
around 1995.&nbsp; It was located right next to the lake near
 Adventure Land .&nbsp;
Those of you who get to Disneyland may still
be able to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There are many things about this planet's history that
don't line up with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making
big expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Again I wonder.&nbsp; What happened to the ice age we were
threatened with in the late 70's.&nbsp; </span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">It's ironic that many global warming events this past
season were cancelled due to extreme winter conditions.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Jeff</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">P.S.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. This is only my third post in over a year.&nbsp; I
read your stuff, and you post almost everyday.&nbsp; You could give me the
courtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly call me an idiot,
and perhaps point out specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

</div>

<br>

<p><font size="2">No virus found in this outgoing message.<br>
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Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 8:18 PM<br>
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</div><br></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 02:11:48 +1200
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Vo]:The Fallacy of arguments against Global Warming
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The problem with augments against Global Warming is they lack pragmatism.

There are in the end 2 types of arguments against GW, one is that either
it's cyclical or not (primarily) our fault or not happening 'yet', the other
is that pollution is good, these again are of 2 types,  helping nature with
a carbon sink to help the fishes and plants (Which points out a good side of
pollution but doesn't negate GW) and another that hopes to so severely fuck
with the weather as to cause GW to stop an impending theorized ice age.

Though it is a seriously bad idea to monkey with nature normally so I find
it very foolhardy but at least the latter makes sense in a way. (And better
ways exist)

But the first type of argument fails to consider that the evidence of GW may
be correct, and I haven't noted a refutation of the data that shows
temperature in lockstep with CO2 nor a refutation that we are increasing
CO2.
The theories may be that something else is the cause of global warming such
as the suns output (funnily enough meters show less sunlight getting to the
ground not more) or a natural source of CO2 outgunning us.
But these theories still don't propose that we should pump CO2 into the
atmosphere to increase the temperature on earth and indeed most seem to
think there is a problem but it's mainly caused by something else.
But that doesn't invalidate it at all.

The theory that there is no harm (yet) again doesn't try to show that there
couldn't be, it simply argues that we aren't yet fucked, that's a pretty
irresponsible argument.

Unless timetravel is developed science will never be able to prove beyond a
doubt what the future will bring, we can not really know what happened in
the past either.
There are sure to be scientists and evidence that disagree.
But the case has been made very well and it is irresponsible to ignore it by
throwing up a smoke screen, Does Al Gore gaining literal or political
currency out of this invalidates it? And do you really expect me to hate
Gore and side with Bush, are you high?

Would you really want to side with oil Execs interested in money over
Green's interested in the planet and all it's inhabitants, you want me to
believe the Greens are the bad guys, are you stupid?

You want me (on a Free Energy list) to be for oil and pollution and against
alternative energy, are you a moron?

Most likely though you are like me, you find the idea of Global Warming
uncomfortable, you like contrarian ideas that go against the mainstream, you
like to pay lots of attention to little known evidence or concepts even if
they are mutually exclusive. (Though not a motive for me you may also use it
as a way to avoid guilt)

I get all that but none of that is a reason to fight against this movement,
even if you don't believe in GW you should still be for the movement because
it aims to reduce CO2 (and oil pollution) and oil and be a boone for
alternative energy.

Please use a bit more responsibility and pragmatism, look at the whole
picture.
If you feel GW is being misused fight that misuse but don't fight for
pollution.
If you want to offer people more hope then find a better way to solve the
problem, don't deny that any problem exists.

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The problem with augments against Global Warming is they lack pragmatism.<br><br>There are in the end 2 types of arguments against GW, one is that either it&#39;s cyclical or not (primarily) our fault or not happening &#39;yet&#39;, the other is that pollution is good, these again are of 2 types,&nbsp; helping nature with a carbon sink to help the fishes and plants (Which points out a good side of pollution but doesn&#39;t negate GW) and another that hopes to so severely fuck with the weather as to cause GW to stop an impending theorized ice age.
<br><br>Though it is a seriously bad idea to monkey with nature normally so I find it very foolhardy but at least the latter makes sense in a way. (And better ways exist)<br><br>But the first type of argument fails to consider that the evidence of GW may be correct, and I haven&#39;t noted a refutation of the data that shows temperature in lockstep with CO2 nor a refutation that we are increasing CO2.
<br>The theories may be that something else is the cause of global warming such as the suns output (funnily enough meters show less sunlight getting to the ground not more) or a natural source of CO2 outgunning us.<br>But these theories still don&#39;t propose that we should pump CO2 into the atmosphere to increase the temperature on earth and indeed most seem to think there is a problem but it&#39;s mainly caused by something else.
<br>But that doesn&#39;t invalidate it at all.<br><br>The theory that there is no harm (yet) again doesn&#39;t try to show that there couldn&#39;t be, it simply argues that we aren&#39;t yet fucked, that&#39;s a pretty irresponsible argument.
<br><br>Unless timetravel is developed science will never be able to prove beyond a doubt what the future will bring, we can not really know what happened in the past either.<br>There are sure to be scientists and evidence that disagree.
<br>But the case has been made very well and it is irresponsible to ignore it by throwing up a smoke screen, Does Al Gore gaining literal or political currency out of this invalidates it? And do you really expect me to hate Gore and side with Bush, are you high?
<br><br>Would you really want to side with oil Execs interested in money over Green&#39;s interested in the planet and all it&#39;s inhabitants, you want me to believe the Greens are the bad guys, are you stupid?<br><br>You want me (on a Free Energy list) to be for oil and pollution and against alternative energy, are you a moron?
<br><br>Most likely though you are like me, you find the idea of Global Warming uncomfortable, you like contrarian ideas that go against the mainstream, you like to pay lots of attention to little known evidence or concepts even if they are mutually exclusive. (Though not a motive for me you may also use it as a way to avoid guilt)
<br><br>I get all that but none of that is a reason to fight against this movement, even if you don&#39;t believe in GW you should still be for the movement because it aims to reduce CO2 (and oil pollution) and oil and be a boone for alternative energy.
<br><br>Please use a bit more responsibility and pragmatism, look at the whole picture.<br>If you feel GW is being misused fight that misuse but don&#39;t fight for pollution.<br>If you want to offer people more hope then find a better way to solve the problem, don&#39;t deny that any problem exists.
<br><br><br>

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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:11:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Forces in refraction effects
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--- David Jonsson  wrote:

> I am really disappointed at Wikipedia users for not
> having anything on the Fizeau effect. It is
intuitive and logical.

... and generally in the USA, the more general effect
goes by another name:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect

... or are you referring to something else?

Jones

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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 07:35:58 -0700
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No offense intended, but this topic is one of few that I take ***extremely*** 
seriously. I will be out right blunt and tell you that nearly all your 
statements are out right fuzzy logic -->



Jeff Fink wrote:
> Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of global warming.
> He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the warmest ever and you
> buy it as gospel.


Fuzzy logic.  You really think Al Gore will make millions if not billion off 
global warming???  Gee, it couldn't be because Mr. Gore is concerned.

... Just unbelievable ... !




[snip]



> It has been much warmer not so long ago.

Fuzzy logic.  That's about as logical as --> "My op-amp output generates thermal 
noise that has no upper crest limit. Man, last week the noise suddenly jumped 
higher than my 1 uV signal. Therefore, this 1 uV signal couldn't possibly be the 
main signal because last week the voltage rose to 112 uV!"

You recently posted, "I recall a news caster six weeks before saying that Europe 
had just experienced the warmest autumn in 500 years.  Do you realize what that 
means?  It means that 500 years ago it was warmer, and that human activity had 
nothing to do with it!  It is well known to some historians that the period from 
900 to 1100 AD was also warmer than today by about three degrees"  Take a look 
at all the global warming charts that go back to 1000 AD.  There was no global 
warming between 1000 to 1100 AD, but even if Europe was hotter back then that in 
way insinuates man contributed CO2 is not the main causes of present global warming.

Aren't you aware of the recent supercomputing simulations that utilizes every 
known related effect such as the way soils react? Were you aware the simulation 
shows how much man contributed CO2 will increase the planets temperature? Were 
you aware the simulation matches global warming charts?





> There are many things about this planets history that dont line up with
> present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making big expensive mistakes
> by selectively ignoring certain historical data.


Listen, neither you or I are climate scientists. Therefore it's only logical to 
listen to the mass majority of PhD climate scientists.




> Again I wonder.  What happened to the ice age we were threatened with in the
> late 70s.  


Please show your references of leading climate scientists make such claims.





> Its ironic that many global warming events this past season were cancelled
> due to extreme winter conditions.


Are you aware that climate scientists predict global warming would indeed cause 
wicked weather?



Regards,
Paul Lowrance

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PHILIP WINESTONE wrote:
---
 > Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly refuted 
the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph that showed 
how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the Industrial Revolution. 
  These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but it's difficult to find a 
more elegant way of showing just how much emotional nonsense is being spouted by 
the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can make a killing.
 >
 > The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is that we puny humans 
can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists, have been 
largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming.  Like I said before, lets 
get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun dance.  Perhaps even try some solid 
science.
---



What's sad the aforementioned chaps, as few as there are, ignore the recent vast 
supercomputer simulation project that includes every known related effect down 
to the dirty details, which clearly shows known CO2 emissions that occurred over 
the past century would increase the planets temperature in accordance to the 
1000 year temperature chart.

You should watch "GLOBAL WARMING: What You Need To Know with Tom Brokaw"



Regards,
Paul

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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:04:42 -0400
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> Then there's the small matter of two Canadian
> scientists who utterly refuted the thinking/
> mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick"
> graph that showed how much we puny humans have 
> influenced climate since the Industrial Revolution.
> These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but
> it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing
> just how much emotional nonsense is being spouted by
> the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can
> make a killing.
> 
> The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here,
> is that we puny humans can influence natural solar
> cycles, which like the above scientists, have been 
> largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming.
> Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps
> do a sun dance.  Perhaps even try some solid science.
> 
> P.
> 

Certain facts can be perceived as inconvenient.

As such, there is the real danger of succumbing to the convenience of proclaiming that God and/or the mysterious forces of Nature must actually be responsible for the recorded GW data since we, ourselves, must be so puny and insignificant in comparison. After all, how can puny and significant ants be held responsible for ANYTHING so heinous as GW.

"I'm harmless."

 - To paraphrase a claim Rush Limbaugh once used in his own defense.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com



--=_7ffc59a7e7be3296ffe0bad7df4ac780
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> Then there's the small matter of two Canadian<br />
> scientists who utterly refuted the thinking/<br />
> mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick"<br />
> graph that showed how much we puny humans have <br />
> influenced climate since the Industrial Revolution.<br />
> These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but<br />
> it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing<br />
> just how much emotional nonsense is being spouted by<br />
> the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can<br />
> make a killing.<br />
> <br />
> The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here,<br />
> is that we puny humans can influence natural solar<br />
> cycles, which like the above scientists, have been <br />
> largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming.<br />
> Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps<br />
> do a sun dance.  Perhaps even try some solid science.<br />
> <br />
> P.<br />
> <br />
<br />
Certain facts can be perceived as inconvenient.<br />
<br />
As such, there is the real danger of succumbing to the convenience of procl=
aiming that God and/or the mysterious forces of Nature must actually be res=
ponsible for the recorded GW data since we, ourselves, must be so puny and =
insignificant in comparison. After all, how can puny and significant ants b=
e held responsible for ANYTHING so heinous as GW.<br />
<br />
"I'm harmless."<br />
<br />
 - To paraphrase a claim Rush Limbaugh once used in his own defense.<br />
<br />
Regards,<br />
Steven Vincent Johnson<br />
www.OrionWorks.com<br />
<br />
<br />

--=_7ffc59a7e7be3296ffe0bad7df4ac780--

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Subject: [Vo]:[VO]; C&EN News 4/23/07
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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BlankHowdy Vorts,=20

" Cold Fusion makes its case in Chicago" by Steve Ritter, an article in =
Chemical and Engineering News, is an interesting read, both in context =
and construction.
Context we understand. Construction is another. A careful study of =
Ritter's composition of text is very revealing. Not by what is written =
but by what is absent. The article misses being a perfect " country and =
western song" which fails to include Mother, trains and prison.=20

What is "missing" in the article?  The anticipation !. The article is =
silently screaming out for the little kid to ask his Mother why the king =
has no clothes.

A front page science newspaper like C&EN reporting facts in cold fusion =
research is like someone shouting from the back of the room. Everyone in =
the audience hears and turns their head to see whats going on. Steve =
Ritter is silent and fails to report the most important aspect of the =
conference.

 Steve Krivit has his " New Energy Times" registered across the globe in =
C&EN. He was given a respected honor, well deserved. Time for Jed =
Rothwell et.al. LENR library work to be examined by Steve Ritter of =
C&EN. He owes the science community a follow up.

Richard


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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE id=3DridTitle>Blank</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://E:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; =
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<BODY id=3DridBody bgColor=3D#ffffff=20
background=3Dcid:000601c785b6$8421d3e0$c905a8c0@xptower>
<DIV>Howdy Vorts, </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>" Cold Fusion makes its case in Chicago" by Steve Ritter, an =
article in=20
Chemical and Engineering News,&nbsp;is an&nbsp;interesting read, both in =
context=20
and construction.</DIV>
<DIV>Context we understand. Construction is another. A careful study of =
Ritter's=20
composition of text is very revealing. Not by what is written=20
but&nbsp;by&nbsp;what is absent. The article&nbsp;misses being&nbsp;a =
perfect "=20
country and western song"&nbsp;which&nbsp;fails to&nbsp;include Mother, =
trains=20
and prison. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>What is "missing" in the article?&nbsp;&nbsp;The anticipation !. =
The=20
article is silently&nbsp;screaming out for the little kid to ask his =
Mother why=20
the&nbsp;king has no clothes.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A front page science&nbsp;newspaper&nbsp;like =
C&amp;EN&nbsp;reporting facts=20
in cold fusion research is like someone shouting from the back of the =
room.=20
Everyone in the audience hears and turns their head to see whats going =
on. Steve=20
Ritter is silent and fails to report the most important aspect of the=20
conference.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;Steve Krivit&nbsp;has his " New Energy Times" registered =
across the=20
globe in C&amp;EN.&nbsp;He was given a respected honor, well =
deserved.&nbsp;Time=20
for Jed Rothwell et.al. LENR&nbsp;library work to be examined by Steve =
Ritter of=20
C&amp;EN. He owes the science community a follow up.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: [Vo]:The lessons of cold fusion applied to global warming
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Let me repeat some of what I have said before.

I do not know enough about the technical issues surrounding global 
warming to judge whether the effect is real or not, or -- assuming it 
is real -- whether it is caused by people, by nature, or by some 
combination of the two.

However, I do know a lot about cold fusion, history, and human 
nature. One of the most important lessons of cold fusion is:

Experts Are (usually) Right.

This is contrary to the impression you might form reading about cold 
fusion in Nature or the New Scientist, but the fact is, real experts 
in electrochemistry, calorimetry, neutron detection and so on who did 
experiments or looked carefully at that data were easily convinced 
that cold fusion is real. Read the paper by Gerisher, for example, 
and you see that attending one conference was enough to convince a 
real expert. (http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/GerischerHiscoldfusi.pdf)

The people who claim cold fusion is not real are mainly ignorant 
fools with no standing in the field, such as Robert Park, Gary Taubes 
and the editors of Nature. Park and the editors are knowledgeable 
about some things, but when it comes to cold fusion, they literally 
do not know what they are talking about. Another group of opponents 
is the plasma fusion scientists whose only concern is protecting 
their income. They resemble the coal industry flacks at the Greening 
Earth Society -- they are in it strictly for the money.

For an outsider, the difficult thing is to know who is an expert, and 
who is not. You might try to evaluate the original sources yourself. 
But if you cannot understand the technical details, you have to 
assume that the majority of scientists who write about a topic really 
are experts. Both methods are dangerous! You should not assume that 
you are qualified to understand original sources, and you should not 
assume you can correctly identify experts. Both methods produce weak 
evidence at best. You can be far more certain about a when you see an 
experiment that produces, let us say, 50 megajoules of excess heat 
from a 1 gram sample with no chemical changes. You do not need any 
deep expert knowledge to know that is iron-clad proof. It is a shame 
we cannot produce such overwhelming evidence to support (or disprove) 
global warming.

But in any case, when you rely on experts instead of evaluating the 
data yourself, the first thing you must do is exclude scientists from 
other fields, and non-scientists such as Taubes. Look for the 
majority opinion of researchers who work full-time on the subject, 
and who have performed experiments and published technical papers. If 
most of these people agree that X is true, X probably is true. Based 
on this standard, it is obvious that cold fusion is real, and it is 
safe to assume that global warming is also real.

Incidentally, when you assume that bona fide experts are correct, you 
are NOT committing the "Appeal to Authority" logical fallacy. You do 
that only when you trust fake experts such as Robert Park. See:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

- Jed

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Dear Vo.,

   Please read the portion of the text, below.....

THEN.... please read comment that follows.....
THEN.....PLEASE offer some contribution[s] as opposed to "rant", "guess"
Theory.....

       AND:  Please read embedded text[s] .....



----------------->>>>

>Therefore when evaluating the net carbon which must be
>burned to get a certain amount of torque at the
>wheels  . . .

(A)  What carbon is produced if the sun is the power source?

This brings up another important point. At start up speeds, up to 10 mph,
the torque from an electric motor beats a steam engine, and really beats a
diesel or standard ICE.

(B) ...............   According to WHAT-WHOM-OTHER ?????


>Cost may be another issue, since transportation fuel
>bears a high tax burden . . .

(C) ...please see (A)..or "SUN" ....


Oil is far more expensive than coal or nuclear power aside from any tax
considerations. Plus, oil is subsidized by the cost of the Iraq war, $1 or
$2 trillion and counting (taking into account the long term costs).


>"on a level
>playing field" there is NO valid comparison: the
>plug-in hybrid makes zero sense at all - if the
>efficiency of the small diesel is in the same range as
>the efficiency of the power plant - which is the
>claim.

On the contrary a small diesel in a hybrid arrangment makes the most sense
of all. A hybrid improves diesel performance as much as any other motor.
There is no reason to make them mutually exclusive. Why settle for a 60 mpg
diesel when you can bump it up to 120 mpg with a hybrid?

- Jed

         TO JED:    You geuss a lot.. and quote a LOT.... but how much real
world
BBGB...HB BS E have you personally done???
       HMMM???

         AND:  If you have NOT done this work.....  Then who HAS???


--- Jed

> On the contrary a small diesel in a hybrid
> arrangment makes the most sense of all. A hybrid
> improves diesel performance as much as any other
> motor.

Exactamundo - no contrario ! You must have
misunderstood my intent (or more likely it was too
hastily posted) if you thought that this was not my
exact message (with the possible refinement of the
6-cycle steam diesel, in place of the normal diesel.

 WHA ... uh JUST uh...0JAT  IS A STEAM diesel????


The hybrid setup actually improves the diesel ICE
efficiency far BETTER than it does the gasoline
alternative, since a diesel is very sensitive to
single speed (RPM) optimization.

The 6-cycle efficiency of >50% would only be possible
at at single engine speed - ergo the hybrid is
absolutely necessary to reach that efficiency goal.

Jones

BTW - for those who may want to look into this - the
Crower patent is on shakey ground. 6-cycle engines
have actually been used for over 100 years for
locomotives and ship engines. There is even a separate
patent sub-class for 6-cycle engines.

  NB:     SUN........Rankine cycle
     H2  and O2
     closed cycle
          [[[no carbon}}}!!!!!!!1
                     HM????
         Comment?  Knowledge?  Kannot know how Howl   ???
                      HMMMM???
            Sound.... light.... energy.... who>
           NB:
               2nd Law of Thermo:
         PRESUMES a CLOSED  system..............
      IS ARE the Earth a closed st up or system????
 If so ...how so...???
         NB:   Remove the term  "CARBON"  from the ICE-DEISEL and JED
caution.....
             What is-are then the result[s]???
                    NB:  You can leave Helium from the sun.....

                HM????

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<div>Dear Vo.,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; Please read the portion of the text, below.....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>THEN.... please read comment that follows.....</div>
<div>THEN.....PLEASE offer some contribution[s] as opposed to &quot;rant&quot;, &quot;guess&quot;</div>
<div>Theory.....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; AND:&nbsp; Please read embedded text[s] .....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>-----------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;</div>
<div><br>&gt;Therefore when evaluating the net carbon which must be<br>&gt;burned to get a certain amount of torque at the<br>&gt;wheels &nbsp;. . .<br>&nbsp;</div>
<div>(A)&nbsp; What carbon is produced if the sun is the power source?</div>
<div><br>This brings up another important point. At start up speeds, up to 10 mph, the torque from an electric motor beats a steam engine, and really beats a diesel or standard ICE.<br><br>(B) ...............&nbsp;&nbsp; According to WHAT-WHOM-OTHER ?????
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>&gt;Cost may be another issue, since transportation fuel<br>&gt;bears a high tax burden . . .</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>(C) ...please see (A)..or &quot;SUN&quot; ....</div>
<div><br><br>Oil is far more expensive than coal or nuclear power aside from any tax considerations. Plus, oil is subsidized by the cost of the Iraq war, $1 or $2 trillion and counting (taking into account the long term costs).
<br><br><br>&gt;&quot;on a level<br>&gt;playing field&quot; there is NO valid comparison: the<br>&gt;plug-in hybrid makes zero sense at all - if the<br>&gt;efficiency of the small diesel is in the same range as<br>&gt;the efficiency of the power plant - which is the
<br>&gt;claim.<br><br>On the contrary a small diesel in a hybrid arrangment makes the most sense of all. A hybrid improves diesel performance as much as any other motor. There is no reason to make them mutually exclusive. Why settle for a 60 mpg diesel when you can bump it up to 120 mpg with a hybrid?
<br><br>- Jed<br>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TO JED:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You geuss a lot.. and quote a LOT.... but how much real world</div>
<div>BBGB...HB BS E have you personally done???&nbsp; </div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HMMM???</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; AND:&nbsp; If you have NOT done this work.....&nbsp; Then who HAS???</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>--- Jed<br><br>&gt; On the contrary a small diesel in a hybrid<br>&gt; arrangment makes the most sense of all. A hybrid<br>&gt; improves diesel performance as much as any other<br>&gt; motor.<br><br>Exactamundo - no contrario ! You must have
<br>misunderstood my intent (or more likely it was too<br>hastily posted) if you thought that this was not my<br>exact message (with the possible refinement of the<br>6-cycle steam diesel, in place of the normal diesel.<br>
&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;WHA ... uh JUST uh...0JAT&nbsp; IS A STEAM diesel????</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>The hybrid setup actually improves the diesel ICE<br>efficiency far BETTER than it does the gasoline<br>alternative, since a diesel is very sensitive to<br>single speed (RPM) optimization.<br><br>The 6-cycle efficiency of &gt;50% would only be possible
<br>at at single engine speed - ergo the hybrid is<br>absolutely necessary to reach that efficiency goal.<br><br>Jones<br><br>BTW - for those who may want to look into this - the<br>Crower patent is on shakey ground. 6-cycle engines
<br>have actually been used for over 100 years for<br>locomotives and ship engines. There is even a separate<br>patent sub-class for 6-cycle engines.</div>
<p>&nbsp; NB:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SUN........Rankine cycle</p>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; H2&nbsp; and O2</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; closed cycle</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [[[no carbon}}}!!!!!!!1</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HM????</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Comment?&nbsp; Knowledge?&nbsp; Kannot know how Howl&nbsp;&nbsp; ???</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HMMMM???&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sound.... light.... energy.... who&gt;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NB:</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2nd Law of Thermo:</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PRESUMES a CLOSED&nbsp; system..............</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; IS ARE the Earth a closed st up or system????</div>
<div>&nbsp;If so ...how so...???</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NB:&nbsp;&nbsp; Remove the term&nbsp; &quot;CARBON&quot;&nbsp; from the ICE-DEISEL and JED caution.....</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; What is-are then the result[s]???</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; NB:&nbsp; You can leave Helium from the sun.....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; HM????</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>

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John Berry wrote:

> Balls.
> The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't 
> based on science, it's just a philosophy if 

Did you watch the video John? Volcanoes pump out 10 times as much CO2 as 
all human activity. The big volcano you mentioned blocked out the 
sunlight which cooled the climate, which resulted in a famine. There is 
a 1600 year cycle of warming and cooling. Greenland was once ice free, 
hence the name.

>
> Truth isn't our friend, nor is light.

What nonsense

 >In the end I have heard of lots of theories, and the thing that 
 >convinces me that it is right to follow the mainstream >(something i 
seldom do) is this: War caused by oil.
Nonsense, war is caused by human evil

 >Pollution caused by oil.
Nonsense, pollution is caused by human activity
 >Assholes supported by oil, and I don't just mean Arab ones.
That's all of us.

 >Quite frankly George Bush is enough reason for me.
 >You're ignoring the civilizational war in which we find >ourselves And 
then there is the fact that I do research in the >field of alternative 
energy, shouldn't the question be why you >on a FE based list support oil?

This is a scientific anomalies list John

>
> Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies.

More Nonsense, people with lots of money support the Democrats. The 
middle income people, who want to be left alone by the government vote 
Republican.

>
> It isn't Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing.
>
You're spouting more idiotic liberal nonsense John. We are in a 
civilizational war. The Radical Islamists have announced their intention 
to either convert us to Islam and impose Sharia Law, or kill us.

Given the economic track record of Sharia Law, if they got their way, 
you'll get your wish of seeing human economic activity suppressed.

Ok, sorry for the harsh words which are a result of frustration but can 
you please explain your pro pollution fuck with nature stance because I 
don't even slightly get it.

 >>If you want to offer people more hope then find a better way >to 
solve the problem, don't deny that any problem exists.

We have all sorts of problems, but, IMHO. if human caused G W is one of 
them, there's nothing that we can do about it.

You've accepted the liberal's world view, which is insane and 
consequently the world makes no sense to you. I'd like to recommend 
Dennis Prager's show, which can be heard on radio in many markets, and 
on the Internet.



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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Subject: RE: [Vo]:The Fallacy of arguments against Global Warming
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=20

=20

   _____ =20

From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:12 AM
To: vortex-l
Subject: [Vo]:The Fallacy of arguments against Global Warming

=20

The problem with augments against Global Warming is they lack =
pragmatism.

There are in the end 2 types of arguments against GW, one is that either
it's cyclical or not (primarily) our fault or not happening 'yet', the =
other
is that pollution is good, these again are of 2 types,  helping nature =
with
a carbon sink to help the fishes and plants (Which points out a good =
side of
pollution but doesn't negate GW) and another that hopes to so severely =
fuck
with the weather as to cause GW to stop an impending theorized ice age.=20

Though it is a seriously bad idea to monkey with nature normally so I =
find
it very foolhardy but at least the latter makes sense in a way. (And =
better
ways exist)

But the first type of argument fails to consider that the evidence of GW =
may
be correct, and I haven't noted a refutation of the data that shows
temperature in lockstep with CO2 nor a refutation that we are increasing
CO2.=20
The theories may be that something else is the cause of global warming =
such
as the suns output (funnily enough meters show less sunlight getting to =
the
ground not more) or a natural source of CO2 outgunning us.

So, on the one hand, there is less solar energy getting to the ground, =
but
on the other hand, Mars is heating up.

Mars has little atmosphere, no clouds, and no discernable recent =
volcanic
activity.  Its reflectivity is constant.  That means that the Martian
temperature rise is a good indicator of increased solar output.  The =
Earth=92s
reflectivity is changeable based on the extent of cloud cover.  If the
amount of sunlight reaching the ground has decreased, as you say, =
despite
increased solar infusion, then we can conclude that it is caused by
significantly increased cloud cover.  That makes sense since higher =
surface
temperatures will cause higher evaporation rates, and thus a more =
expansive
cloud cover.  What we have demonstrated then is that the Earth has a =
very
effective self regulating mechanism to control temperature.  The =
operation
fits standard control system theory.  It=92s the same for everything =
from fly
ball governors to op amps.  The control system must first detect an =
error
before it can implement a correction.  The zone in which the correction =
is
made is called the control band.  There is a high control band and a low
control band.  Between them is the dead band where no control is =
required or
generated.  Control systems that are modestly damped will have =
overshoot,
which is to say that operation will rarely stay within the ideal =
confines of
the dead band.  In Earth=92s case it will alternate between cold and =
hot.
There is a specific oscillation period for a control system which does =
not
become apparent if the system is critically damped.  The Earth is not
critically damped in its thermal control system, and it exhibits a =
period of
approximately 500 years.

If, indeed, human activity has nudged the average temperature higher, =
the
control system will generate all the more force =93clouds=94 to bring it =
back
down.

You and others may be willing to argue that our activity has broken the
control system.  But, so far, there is no indication of that other than =
the
speculation that pent up methanes and hydrides could over tax the =
control
system.


But these theories still don't propose that we should pump CO2 into the
atmosphere to increase the temperature on earth and indeed most seem to
think there is a problem but it's mainly caused by something else.=20
But that doesn't invalidate it at all.

The theory that there is no harm (yet) again doesn't try to show that =
there
couldn't be, it simply argues that we aren't yet fucked, that's a pretty
irresponsible argument.=20

Unless timetravel is developed science will never be able to prove =
beyond a
doubt what the future will bring, we can not really know what happened =
in
the past either.
There are sure to be scientists and evidence that disagree.=20
But the case has been made very well and it is irresponsible to ignore =
it by
throwing up a smoke screen, Does Al Gore gaining literal or political
currency out of this invalidates it? And do you really expect me to hate
Gore and side with Bush, are you high?=20

Bush is not making my day in several areas.



Would you really want to side with oil Execs interested in money over
Green's interested in the planet and all it's inhabitants, you want me =
to
believe the Greens are the bad guys, are you stupid?

I thought you finally read my first post.  I said I want us off oil
dependency.  I have a lot of time and money invested in that goal, but
unfortunately with poor results.  What experiments have you done?



You want me (on a Free Energy list) to be for oil and pollution and =
against
alternative energy, are you a moron?=20

Most likely though you are like me, you find the idea of Global Warming
uncomfortable, you like contrarian ideas that go against the mainstream, =
you
like to pay lots of attention to little known evidence or concepts even =
if
they are mutually exclusive. (Though not a motive for me you may also =
use it
as a way to avoid guilt)=20

I want truth, honesty, and facts on this subject.

Instead, I see way too much hype, deception, and scare tactics.

=20

Jeff

=20


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20
Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007
8:18 PM
=20

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> John =
Berry
[mailto:aether22@gmail.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, April 23, =
2007 10:12
AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> vortex-l<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [Vo]:The Fallacy =
of
arguments against Global Warming</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The problem =
with augments
against Global Warming is they lack pragmatism.<br>
<br>
There are in the end 2 types of arguments against GW, one is that either =
it's
cyclical or not (primarily) our fault or not happening 'yet', the other =
is that
pollution is good, these again are of 2 types,&nbsp; helping nature with =
a
carbon sink to help the fishes and plants (Which points out a good side =
of
pollution but doesn't negate GW) and another that hopes to so severely =
fuck
with the weather as to cause GW to stop an impending theorized ice age. =
<br>
<br>
Though it is a seriously bad idea to monkey with nature normally so I =
find it
very foolhardy but at least the latter makes sense in a way. (And better =
ways
exist)<br>
<br>
But the first type of argument fails to consider that the evidence of GW =
may be
correct, and I haven't noted a refutation of the data that shows =
temperature in
lockstep with CO2 nor a refutation that we are increasing CO2. <br>
The theories may be that something else is the cause of global warming =
such as
the suns output (funnily enough meters show less sunlight getting to the =
ground
not more) or a natural source of CO2 outgunning us.<font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>So, on
the one hand, there is less solar energy getting to the ground, but on =
the
other hand, Mars is heating up.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Mars has
little atmosphere, no clouds, and no discernable recent volcanic =
activity.&nbsp;
Its reflectivity is constant.&nbsp; That means that the Martian =
temperature
rise is a good indicator of increased solar output.&nbsp; The =
Earth&#8217;s reflectivity
is changeable based on the extent of cloud cover.&nbsp; If the amount of
sunlight reaching the ground has decreased, as you say, despite =
increased solar
infusion, then we can conclude that it is caused by significantly =
increased
cloud cover.&nbsp; That makes sense since higher surface temperatures =
will
cause higher evaporation rates, and thus a more expansive cloud =
cover.&nbsp;
What we have demonstrated then is that the Earth has a very effective =
self
regulating mechanism to control temperature.&nbsp; The operation fits =
standard
control system theory.&nbsp; It&#8217;s the same for everything from fly =
ball
governors to op amps.&nbsp; The control system must first detect an =
error
before it can implement a correction.&nbsp; The zone in which the =
correction is
made is called the control band.&nbsp; There is a high control band and =
a low
control band.&nbsp; Between them is the dead band where no control is =
required
or generated.&nbsp; Control systems that are modestly damped will have
overshoot, which is to say that operation will rarely stay within the =
ideal
confines of the dead band.&nbsp; In Earth&#8217;s case it will alternate
between cold and hot.&nbsp; There is a specific oscillation period for a
control system which does not become apparent if the system is =
critically
damped.&nbsp; The Earth is not critically damped in its thermal control =
system,
and it exhibits a period of approximately 500 =
years.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If,
indeed, human activity has nudged the average temperature higher, the =
control
system will generate all the more force &#8220;clouds&#8221; to bring it =
back
down.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>You and
others may be willing to argue that our activity has broken the control =
system.&nbsp;
But, so far, there is no indication of that other than the speculation =
that
pent up methanes and hydrides could over tax the control =
system.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
But these theories still don't propose that we should pump CO2 into the
atmosphere to increase the temperature on earth and indeed most seem to =
think
there is a problem but it's mainly caused by something else. <br>
But that doesn't invalidate it at all.<br>
<br>
The theory that there is no harm (yet) again doesn't try to show that =
there
couldn't be, it simply argues that we aren't yet fucked, that's a pretty
irresponsible argument. <br>
<br>
Unless timetravel is developed science will never be able to prove =
beyond a
doubt what the future will bring, we can not really know what happened =
in the
past either.<br>
There are sure to be scientists and evidence that disagree. <br>
But the case has been made very well and it is irresponsible to ignore =
it by
throwing up a smoke screen, Does Al Gore gaining literal or political =
currency
out of this invalidates it? And do you really expect me to hate Gore and =
side
with Bush, are you high? <font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Bush is
not making my day in several areas.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
Would you really want to side with oil Execs interested in money over =
Green's
interested in the planet and all it's inhabitants, you want me to =
believe the
Greens are the bad guys, are you stupid?<font color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I
thought you finally read my first post.&nbsp; I said I want us off oil =
dependency.&nbsp;
I have a lot of time and money invested in that goal, but unfortunately =
with
poor results.&nbsp; What experiments have you =
done?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
You want me (on a Free Energy list) to be for oil and pollution and =
against
alternative energy, are you a moron? <br>
<br>
Most likely though you are like me, you find the idea of Global Warming
uncomfortable, you like contrarian ideas that go against the mainstream, =
you
like to pay lots of attention to little known evidence or concepts even =
if they
are mutually exclusive. (Though not a motive for me you may also use it =
as a
way to avoid guilt) <font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I want
truth, honesty, and facts on this subject.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Instead,
I see way too much hype, deception, and scare =
tactics.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jeff<o:p></o:p></=
span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>No virus found in this outgoing message.<BR>
Checked by AVG Free Edition.<BR>
Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 =
8:18 PM<BR>
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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr 23 12:04:44 2007
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Message-ID: <462D031F.2010202@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 12:03:59 -0700
From: Paul Lowrance <energymover@gmail.com>
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To:  vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW
References: <588913.95124.qm@web88009.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <a6f44cf60704230456s415e1088yd7978a43f5dcd718@mail.gmail.com> <462CFDE6.6090807@usfamily.net>
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thomas malloy wrote:
 > John Berry wrote:
 >
 >> Balls.
 >> The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't
 >> based on science, it's just a philosophy if
 >
 > Did you watch the video John? Volcanoes pump out 10 times as much CO2 as
 > all human activity. The big volcano you mentioned blocked out the
 > sunlight which cooled the climate, which resulted in a famine. There is
 > a 1600 year cycle of warming and cooling. Greenland was once ice free,
 > hence the name.



Climate scientists know about volcanoes, which ones have erupted and when. 
Volcanoes and asteroids can and have caused such climate changes. Fact still 
remains the largest climate simulation program utilizing supercomputers 
factoring in every know related effect predicts the amount of CO2 caused by 
humanity is the main cause of Global Warming.

I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past erupted to 
produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given duration***. Oddly enough you're 
missing a huge factor, "Duration."  IOW, humanity continues to pump out a steady 
amount of CO2 year after year.


Regards,
Paul Lowrance

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Subject: RE: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW
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-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Lowrance [mailto:energymover@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 10:36 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW

No offense intended, but this topic is one of few that I take
***extremely***=20
seriously. I will be out right blunt and tell you that nearly all your=20
statements are out right fuzzy logic -->





Listen, neither you or I are climate scientists. Therefore it's only =
logical
to=20
listen to the mass majority of PhD climate scientists.

	It is the liberal way to silence dissenting voices.  The size of the
mass majority is skewed because the esteemed potential dissenters are
keeping quiet to preserve their careers.  I'm not part of the 	=
scientific
community.  I don't have that kind of threat hanging over 	me.




> Again I wonder.  What happened to the ice age we were threatened with =
in
the
> late 70=92s. =20


Please show your references of leading climate scientists make such =
claims.

	You don't remember it?  It was all over the news and in magazines
during the late 70's.  If I hadn't just thrown out my Popular Science
collection last year I could have found a sample for you.

	Jeff






No virus found in this outgoing message.
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8:18 PM
=20

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After writing computer simulations for several decades now I have a good 
understanding of such simulations. The computer will dominate science. :-)

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070111184302.htm

What's fascinating is recent simulations show the known amount of human caused 
CO2 should increase the planets temperature in accordance to present global warming.

There seems to be a lot of fuzzy logic roaming around, point to Mars. We simply 
don't know how much inner activity is occurring on Mars, but that's moot because 
all the moons and planets in our solar system would have to increase in 
temperature by the same percentage if such warming is caused by an increase in 
Sun radiation. Is our Moon heating up, LOL.

Regardless, NASA supercomputer simulations are showing CO2 caused by humanity 
alone is enough to cause global warming. Are the simulations in error? Perhaps, 
but not likely given the size of the project. This and a lot more is discussed 
in "GLOBAL WARMING: What You Need To Know with Tom Brokaw"



Regards,
Paul Lowrance

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr 23 13:00:49 2007
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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:00:25 -0700
From: Paul Lowrance <energymover@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW
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Jeff Fink wrote:
>> Again I wonder.  What happened to the ice age we were threatened with in
> the
>> late 70s.  
> 
> 
> Please show your references of leading climate scientists make such claims.
> 
> 	You don't remember it?  It was all over the news and in magazines
> during the late 70's.  If I hadn't just thrown out my Popular Science
> collection last year I could have found a sample for you.



I don't think so. Popular science has published articles on just about 
everything. Sorry, I just don't see any logic in your statements. What if 
someone said, "Hey, popular science printed an article on Free Energy. Therefore 
the science community *MUST* believe such machines are real."

Also you said "I recall a news caster six weeks before saying that Europe had 
just experienced the warmest autumn in 500 years."  You recall a news caster 
making a statement??????



Maybe some other effect is adding to global warming, but it's illogical to deny 
recent computer simulations. Climate scientists know there are cycles-- 60 year 
cycles, 500,000 year cycles, etc. etc. Indeed climate scientists are trying to 
verify if part of global warming is caused by another effect, but for the moment 
present data is very convincing that humanity is a major cause.


Regards,
Paul Lowrance

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From: "Jeff Fink" <revtec@ptd.net>
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Subject: RE: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity is NOW 'Unequivocal'
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:06:40 -0400
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The moon is just about the only other thing we can look at.  Mercury is too
close to the sun, the other planets are cloud shrouded, and everything else
is likely too small to get a good reading.  But, you are right.  We should
see the same effect of elevated temps on the moon if solar activity is
increasing.

Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Lowrance [mailto:energymover@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 3:46 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity is NOW 'Unequivocal'

After writing computer simulations for several decades now I have a good 
understanding of such simulations. The computer will dominate science. :-)

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070111184302.htm

What's fascinating is recent simulations show the known amount of human
caused 
CO2 should increase the planets temperature in accordance to present global
warming.

There seems to be a lot of fuzzy logic roaming around, point to Mars. We
simply 
don't know how much inner activity is occurring on Mars, but that's moot
because 
all the moons and planets in our solar system would have to increase in 
temperature by the same percentage if such warming is caused by an increase
in 
Sun radiation. Is our Moon heating up, LOL.

Regardless, NASA supercomputer simulations are showing CO2 caused by
humanity 
alone is enough to cause global warming. Are the simulations in error?
Perhaps, 
but not likely given the size of the project. This and a lot more is
discussed 
in "GLOBAL WARMING: What You Need To Know with Tom Brokaw"



Regards,
Paul Lowrance


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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr 23 13:13:02 2007
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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:07:50 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW
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Jeff Fink wrote:

>Listen, neither you or I are climate scientists. Therefore it's only logical
>to
>listen to the mass majority of PhD climate scientists.
>
>         It is the liberal way to silence dissenting voices.  The size of the
>mass majority is skewed because the esteemed potential dissenters are
>keeping quiet to preserve their careers.

No, it is not liberal. It is the conventional approach. It is 
apolitical, or perhaps slightly conservative, I suppose. Generally 
speaking, conservatives believe that you should pay heed to 
established experts and textbook science. (And I fully agree with 
them about that.) Conservatism means you honor and give special 
weight to established, mainstream standards. There is no question 
that the mainstream in climate science now supports the global 
warming hypothesis.

Everyone involved in cold fusion knows that dissenters sometimes keep 
quiet, and that science, like all other human institutions, is 
sometimes political. That's human nature. (Primate nature, actually.) 
However, just because sometimes, in some cases, the majority lords 
over the minority, that does mean it always happens, or that the 
minority view is automatically correct. If that were true, all of 
science and technology would be dysfunctional, all textbooks would be 
wrong, and we would still be living in trees. The fact is, most of 
the time the majority of experts are right, and it is a good bet they 
are in this case.

The majority does not go about squelching minority views unless it is 
motivated to do so, and unless the minority is powerless and 
despised. For example, plasma fusion researchers attack cold fusion 
because they fear they will lose their funding. In the case of global 
warming, the minority of experts who say it is not occurring is 
anything but powerless! On the contrary, this group has the full 
support of the U.S. President and both political parties, plus any 
amount of funding from industry. Influential columnists and other 
opinion makers often repeat claims made by the anti-global warming 
researchers, and others in the anti-global warming camp such as 
economists who claim it would cost too much to fix the problem, or 
the extreme nut-cakes who claim that global warming would actually be 
beneficial. Despite the fact that this minority is influential beyond 
its numbers, the majority of climate researchers are in no danger of 
losing their funding, so they are not motivated to attack the 
minority the way plasma fusion scientists are. I have never read one 
of them claim that the minority is doing "schlock science" or "fraud" 
but only that they are wrong.


I have deliberately framed this discussion purely in terms of whether 
as a rule you can believe experts or not, without regard to the 
actual content of the claim. Along the same lines, in the previous 
message I wrote: "I do not know enough about the technical issues 
surrounding global warming to judge whether the effect is real or not 
. . ." That is an overstatement. I do know something, and I think the 
data is increasingly compelling. It will not be as compelling as a 
cold fusion experiment until we fry the planet and the damage is 
done. The statements circulated by anti-global warming researchers 
and by columnists such as George Will strike as being increasingly 
unsupportable. Furthermore, the steps required to reduce global 
warming would almost all be beneficial in other ways. For example, 
they would reduce U.S. dependency on foreign oil and the terrorism 
sponsored by some OPEC members. So even if global warming is not 
happening, we should take vigorous steps to reduce CO2 emissions anyway.

- Jed

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Subject: RE: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW
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Also you said "I recall a news caster six weeks before saying that Europe
had 
just experienced the warmest autumn in 500 years."  You recall a news caster

making a statement??????

The newscaster reported a statement. I don't know if he named a source.  The
item was obviously intended to hype GW to the public, but it had the
opposite affect on me.

Jeff

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Subject: Re: [Vo]:Real world Flop ear mule
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john herman wrote:

>This brings up another important point. At start up speeds, up to 10 
>mph, the torque from an electric motor beats a steam engine, and 
>really beats a diesel or standard ICE.
>
>(B) ...............   According to WHAT-WHOM-OTHER ?????

This is common knowledge. Furthermore, it is readily apparent when 
you drive a Prius. When you floor it on a highway on-ramp, it takes 
off like no car I have ever driven, and I have driven some powerful 
cars. Also, there is no gear shifting, which makes for smooth acceleration.


>          TO JED:    You geuss a lot.. and quote a LOT.... but how 
> much real world
>BBGB...HB BS E have you personally done???
>        HMMM???

No, I never guess. I am detail-oriented, fact-based guy. That doesn't 
mean I am right, but it does mean that every assertion I make is 
fact-checked six ways from seven.

- Jed

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Subject: [Vo]:Wikipedia article on the 2004 DoE panel on cold fusion
Status: O
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See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_DoE_panel_on_cold_fusion

This is surprisingly comprehensive.

I have to admit, the Wikipedia main article on cold fusion is holding 
up remarkably well against skeptical attacks. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion

People such as Pierre Carbonnelle (Pcarbonn) must spend a lot of time 
battling with skeptics there. On one hand I hate to see them waste 
their time, but on the other hand Wikipedia is increasingly 
influential. I read in the newspaper that some rival encyclopedias 
are being formed, including one that requires contributors to file 
their real names and addresses. I approve of that idea.

- Jed

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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 04:23:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: PHILIP WINESTONE <philip.winestone@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly refute=
d the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph that s=
howed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the Industrial =
Revolution.  These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but it's diffic=
ult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional nonsense =
is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can make=
 a killing.=0A=0AThe "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is =
that we puny humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the abov=
e scientists, have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warmi=
ng.  Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun danc=
e.  Perhaps even try some solid science.=0A=0AP.=0A=0A=0A----- Original Mes=
sage ----=0AFrom: Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net>=0ATo: vortex-l@eskimo.com=0ASe=
nt: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM=0ASubject: [Vo]:to John Berry regardi=
ng GW=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=
<!--=0A=0A /* Style Definitions */=0A p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNor=
mal=0A=09{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Ti=
mes New Roman";}=0Aa:link, span.MsoHyperlink=0A=09{color:blue;text-decorati=
on:underline;}=0Aa:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed=0A=09{color:purple;te=
xt-decoration:underline;}=0Aspan.EmailStyle17=0A=09{font-family:Arial;color=
:windowtext;}=0A _filtered {margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}=0Adiv.Sectio=
n1=0A=09{}=0A-->=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AAl Gore is poised to make millions if =
not billions off of =93global=0Awarming=94.  He puts some chart in his movi=
e saying it is now the=0Awarmest ever and you buy it as gospel.=0A =0A=0A  =
=0A =0A=0AThere are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gulli=
bility=0Aof some on this forum scares me.=0A =0A=0A  =0A =0A=0AIt has been =
much warmer not so long ago.=0A =0A=0A  =0A =0A=0AHere is another example i=
f your attention span will allow:=0A =0A=0A  =0A =0A=0AWe have huge sequoia=
 trees growing in central CA at=0Aelevations of 3000 to 5000 feet.  They li=
ke it cool and moist, but don=92t=0Alike extreme sub freezing temps or stro=
ng winds.=0A =0A=0A  =0A =0A=0AThere are fossilized stumps of sequoias in t=
he=0A Colorado rockies at Florissant =0Aat an elevation over 8000 feet.  Th=
ey are exhibited in place in excavated=0Apits.  I saw them. But, they looke=
d a little strange.  They did not=0Alook entirely like rock.  I asked about=
 it at the visitor=92s center,=0Aand was told that they are only 50% fossil=
ized. =0A =0A=0AJohn. The rest is WOOD!  =0A =0A=0AJohn. How old aren=92t t=
hey?=0A =0A=0A  =0A =0A=0ABack in the 50=92s, before this site was protecte=
d, Mrs.=0ADisney bought one of these stumps for a birthday present for her =
husband. =0AI saw it on display outside at Disneyland =0Aaround 1995.  It w=
as located right next to the lake near=0A Adventure Land . =0AThose of you =
who get to Disneyland may still=0Abe able to see it if it hasn=92t rotted a=
way by now.=0A =0A=0A  =0A =0A=0AThere are many things about this planet=92=
s history that=0Adon=92t line up with present day thinking. Let us not be d=
uped into making=0Abig expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain h=
istorical data.=0A =0A=0A  =0A =0A=0AAgain I wonder.  What happened to the =
ice age we were=0Athreatened with in the late 70=92s.  =0A =0A=0A  =0A =0A=
=0AIt=92s ironic that many global warming events this past=0Aseason were ca=
ncelled due to extreme winter conditions.=0A =0A=0A  =0A =0A=0AJeff=0A =0A=
=0A  =0A =0A=0AP.S.=0A =0A=0A  =0A =0A=0AJohn. This is only my third post i=
n over a year.  I=0Aread your stuff, and you post almost everyday.  You cou=
ld give me the=0Acourtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly=
 call me an idiot,=0Aand perhaps point out specific errors in my writings s=
o that I may be enlightened.=0A =0A=0A  =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ANo viru=
s found in this outgoing message.=0A=0AChecked by AVG Free Edition.=0A=0AVe=
rsion: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 8:18=
 PM=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
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<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10p=
t"><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"=
>Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly refut=
ed the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph that =
showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the Industrial=
 Revolution.&nbsp; These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but it's =
difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional non=
sense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) ca=
n make a killing.<br><br>The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others h=
ere, is that we puny humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like =
the above scientists, have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on glob=
al warming.&nbsp; Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps =
do a sun
 dance.&nbsp; Perhaps even try some solid science.<br><br>P.<br><br><br><di=
v style=3D"font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12=
pt;">----- Original Message ----<br>From: Jeff Fink &lt;revtec@ptd.net&gt;<=
br>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<br>Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM<br>Su=
bject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW<br><br>=0A=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A =0A=0A =
=0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0A<style>=0A<!--=0A=0A /* Style Definitions=
 */=0A p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal=0A=09{margin:0in;margin-bot=
tom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";}=0Aa:link, span=
.MsoHyperlink=0A=09{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}=0Aa:visited, spa=
n.MsoHyperlinkFollowed=0A=09{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}=0Aspa=
n.EmailStyle17=0A=09{font-family:Arial;color:windowtext;}=0A _filtered {mar=
gin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}=0Adiv.Section1=0A=09{}=0A-->=0A</style>=0A=
=0A=0A=0A<div class=3D"Section1">=0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D=
"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Al =
Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of =93global=0Awarming=
=94.&nbsp; He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the=0Awarmest e=
ver and you buy it as gospel.</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-fami=
ly: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font fa=
ce=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;=
">There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility=
=0Aof some on this forum scares me.</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; fon=
t-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><f=
ont face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Arial;">It has been much warmer not so long ago.</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial;">Here is another example if your attention span will al=
low:</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Arial" si=
ze=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span=
></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><=
span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">We have huge sequoia tr=
ees growing in central CA at=0Aelevations of 3000 to 5000 feet.&nbsp; They =
like it cool and moist, but don=92t=0Alike extreme sub freezing temps or st=
rong winds.</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Ar=
ial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp=
;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Arial" size=
=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There are fossi=
lized stumps of sequoias in the=0A Colorado rockies at Florissant =0Aat an =
elevation over 8000 feet.&nbsp; They are exhibited in place in excavated=0A=
pits.&nbsp; I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.&nbsp; They did n=
ot=0Alook entirely like rock.&nbsp; I asked about it at the visitor=92s cen=
ter,=0Aand was told that they are only 50% fossilized. </span></font></p> =
=0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D=
"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. The rest is WOOD!&nbsp; </span=
></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><=
span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. How old aren=92t =
they?</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Arial" s=
ize=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</spa=
n></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">=
<span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Back in the 50=92s, be=
fore this site was protected, Mrs.=0ADisney bought one of these stumps for =
a birthday present for her husband.&nbsp;=0AI saw it on display outside at =
Disneyland =0Aaround 1995.&nbsp; It was located right next to the lake near=
=0A Adventure Land .&nbsp;=0AThose of you who get to Disneyland may still=
=0Abe able to see it if it hasn=92t rotted away by now.</span></font></p> =
=0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D=
"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size=
: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There are many things about this planet=92s hi=
story that=0Adon=92t line up with present day thinking. Let us not be duped=
 into making=0Abig expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain histo=
rical data.</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Ar=
ial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp=
;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Arial" size=
=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Again I wonder.=
&nbsp; What happened to the ice age we were=0Athreatened with in the late 7=
0=92s.&nbsp; </span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"=
Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nb=
sp;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Arial" siz=
e=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">It=92s ironic =
that many global warming events this past=0Aseason were cancelled due to ex=
treme winter conditions.</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><fo=
nt face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: A=
rial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D=
"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Jef=
f</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Arial" size=
=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span><=
/font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">P.S.</span></font></p> =
=0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D=
"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size=
: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. This is only my third post in over a yea=
r.&nbsp; I=0Aread your stuff, and you post almost everyday.&nbsp; You could=
 give me the=0Acourtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly c=
all me an idiot,=0Aand perhaps point out specific errors in my writings so =
that I may be enlightened.</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family:=
 Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =0A=0A</div>=0A=0A<br>=0A=0A<p><font siz=
e=3D"2">No virus found in this outgoing message.<br>=0AChecked by AVG Free =
Edition.<br>=0AVersion: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Dat=
e: 4/22/2007 8:18 PM<br>=0A</font> </p>=0A</div><br></div></div></body></ht=
ml>
--0-341062486-1177327435=:95124--

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr 23 14:51:58 2007
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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:51:32 -0700
From: Paul Lowrance <energymover@gmail.com>
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To:  vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity is NOW 'Unequivocal'
References: <002e01c784e8$82ef2be0$c905a8c0@xptower> <a6f44cf60704220750j4e7f66d2qe8c5785d8d1e7d08@mail.gmail.com> <462B8D91.2080408@gmail.com> <462C55D3.7080907@usfamily.net> <462D0D13.6050700@gmail.com> <000901c785e2$e8522870$6401a8c0@REVTEC1>
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Jeff Fink wrote:
> Mercury is too close to the sun


Indeed, and if the sun is radiating X% more radiation then Mercury should be 
hotter. Are you suggesting Mercury is always in front or behind the Sun so we 
can't measuring it's blackbody radiation???  I'm curious where you get such 
information, or are you just thinking out loud?




> the other planets are cloud shrouded,


That doesn't matter. Planets are not transparent to blackbody radiation. If the 
planet receives more radiation from the Sun then they'll heat up and radiate 
that much more.




> and everything else is likely too small to get a good reading.


I doubt that given such blackbody radiation is easily focused and measurable.




> But, you are right.  We should see the same effect of elevated
 > temps on the moon if solar activity is increasing.


Indeed, and it seems likely given the significance and attention global warming 
is drawing that the few global warming skeptic climate scientists would use such 
Moon temperature data as further evidence, but I don't see mention of any such 
data in articles.



Regards,
Paul Lowrance

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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 11:47:39 +1200
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity is NOW 'Unequivocal'
In-Reply-To: <462D2A64.8070107@gmail.com>
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Jeff, how sure are you that GW is nonsense?
Are you pretty sure?

Is there a 10% chance it's real? 5%? 1%? one in a million??

At what point do the odds become justification for polluting out planet
more?

On 4/24/07, Paul Lowrance <energymover@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Jeff Fink wrote:
> > Mercury is too close to the sun
>
>
> Indeed, and if the sun is radiating X% more radiation then Mercury should
> be
> hotter. Are you suggesting Mercury is always in front or behind the Sun so
> we
> can't measuring it's blackbody radiation???  I'm curious where you get
> such
> information, or are you just thinking out loud?
>
>
>
>
> > the other planets are cloud shrouded,
>
>
> That doesn't matter. Planets are not transparent to blackbody radiation.
> If the
> planet receives more radiation from the Sun then they'll heat up and
> radiate
> that much more.
>
>
>
>
> > and everything else is likely too small to get a good reading.
>
>
> I doubt that given such blackbody radiation is easily focused and
> measurable.
>
>
>
>
> > But, you are right.  We should see the same effect of elevated
> > temps on the moon if solar activity is increasing.
>
>
> Indeed, and it seems likely given the significance and attention global
> warming
> is drawing that the few global warming skeptic climate scientists would
> use such
> Moon temperature data as further evidence, but I don't see mention of any
> such
> data in articles.
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Paul Lowrance
>
>

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Jeff, how sure are you that GW is nonsense?<br>Are you pretty sure?<br><br>Is there a 10% chance it&#39;s real? 5%? 1%? one in a million??<br><br>At what point do the odds become justification for polluting out planet more?
<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/24/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Paul Lowrance</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:energymover@gmail.com">energymover@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Jeff Fink wrote:<br>&gt; Mercury is too close to the sun<br><br><br>Indeed, and if the sun is radiating X% more radiation then Mercury should be<br>hotter. Are you suggesting Mercury is always in front or behind the Sun so we
<br>can&#39;t measuring it&#39;s blackbody radiation???&nbsp;&nbsp;I&#39;m curious where you get such<br>information, or are you just thinking out loud?<br><br><br><br><br>&gt; the other planets are cloud shrouded,<br><br><br>That doesn&#39;t matter. Planets are not transparent to blackbody radiation. If the
<br>planet receives more radiation from the Sun then they&#39;ll heat up and radiate<br>that much more.<br><br><br><br><br>&gt; and everything else is likely too small to get a good reading.<br><br><br>I doubt that given such blackbody radiation is easily focused and measurable.
<br><br><br><br><br>&gt; But, you are right.&nbsp;&nbsp;We should see the same effect of elevated<br> &gt; temps on the moon if solar activity is increasing.<br><br><br>Indeed, and it seems likely given the significance and attention global warming
<br>is drawing that the few global warming skeptic climate scientists would use such<br>Moon temperature data as further evidence, but I don&#39;t see mention of any such<br>data in articles.<br><br><br><br>Regards,<br>Paul Lowrance
<br><br></blockquote></div><br>

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Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW
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This Mars "warming up" is a red herring. The source of that idea is one man 
but it has been seized upon by the GW deniers as the basis of the latest in 
a series of last minute revelations that they have trotted out - designed to 
protect the status quo and muddy the waters. Most planetary climate 
scientists say the idea that Mars is warming because of increased solar 
output is rubbish - they lay the real blame at the door of Martian orbital 
variations (wobbles). Try this excellent website for a bit of realism to 
counter the (possibly deliberate) misinformation that is fooling the 
wishfully thinking.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=192

Yes, there really were warnings about precipitating an ice age from legit 
climate scientists (and environmentalists) in the 70's. This is often 
dragged out as some sort of proof that climate scientists and 
environmentalists got it wrong then and are now saying something completely 
opposite. Nothing could be further from the truth. Before I make my point I 
have to say that S.Fred Singer, one of the loudest and most "eminent" of the 
GW deniers, originally denied that global warming was happening because he 
claimed that measurements of temperature taken by other scientists were in 
error because of the "urban heat island" effect (measurements were elevated 
because of city development). Now that the evidence that GW is really 
happening is virtually unassailable, he has published a book claiming that 
OK, it is happening, but it's all down to natural causes and that it will be 
good for us anyway. Remember what happened to the punk who felt lucky in 
Dirty Harry?

Back to the ice age theory. This was that as the long term cycles suggest 
that we are heading towards another natural ice age, the emission of acid 
gases (which form nuclei that generate increased cloud cover) and 
particulate matter (soot) in vehicle exhaust and smoke stack emissions would 
cause a global cooling effect because of the reflection of solar radiation 
before it got to Earth thus creating a runaway feedback effect of increased 
albedo leading to more ice and snow etc. As far as I recall there was very 
little consideration given to greenhouse gases at the time. One of the 
ironies of all this is that the cooling effect of the acid gases and 
particulates probably helped to mask the effect of global warming from the 
same fossil fuels (particularly coal) that were contributing to the increase 
in CO2 - potentially explaining why initial predictions of rising 
temperature were somewhat out.

 The "hockey stick" graph was mentioned as having been refuted - it's not as 
simple as that. Current thinking is that the original graph had problems 
with the methodolgy chosen and the error estimations but still the overall 
graph shape remains the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hockey_stick_controversy

Nick Palmer 

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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:10:29 +1200
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:The Fallacy of arguments against Global Warming
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On 4/24/07, Jeff Fink <revtec@ptd.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, April 23, 2007 10:12 AM
> *To:* vortex-l
> *Subject:* [Vo]:The Fallacy of arguments against Global Warming
>
>
>
> The problem with augments against Global Warming is they lack pragmatism.
>
> There are in the end 2 types of arguments against GW, one is that either
> it's cyclical or not (primarily) our fault or not happening 'yet', the other
> is that pollution is good, these again are of 2 types,  helping nature with
> a carbon sink to help the fishes and plants (Which points out a good side of
> pollution but doesn't negate GW) and another that hopes to so severely fuck
> with the weather as to cause GW to stop an impending theorized ice age.
>
> Though it is a seriously bad idea to monkey with nature normally so I find
> it very foolhardy but at least the latter makes sense in a way. (And better
> ways exist)
>
> But the first type of argument fails to consider that the evidence of GW
> may be correct, and I haven't noted a refutation of the data that shows
> temperature in lockstep with CO2 nor a refutation that we are increasing
> CO2.
> The theories may be that something else is the cause of global warming
> such as the suns output (funnily enough meters show less sunlight getting to
> the ground not more) or a natural source of CO2 outgunning us.
>
> So, on the one hand, there is less solar energy getting to the ground, but
> on the other hand, Mars is heating up.
>
> Mars has little atmosphere, no clouds, and no discernable recent volcanic
> activity.  Its reflectivity is constant.  That means that the Martian
> temperature rise is a good indicator of increased solar output.  The Earth's
> reflectivity is changeable based on the extent of cloud cover.  If the
> amount of sunlight reaching the ground has decreased, as you say, despite
> increased solar infusion, then we can conclude that it is caused by
> significantly increased cloud cover.  That makes sense since higher surface
> temperatures will cause higher evaporation rates, and thus a more expansive
> cloud cover.  What we have demonstrated then is that the Earth has a very
> effective self regulating mechanism to control temperature.  The operation
> fits standard control system theory.  It's the same for everything from fly
> ball governors to op amps.  The control system must first detect an error
> before it can implement a correction.  The zone in which the correction is
> made is called the control band.  There is a high control band and a low
> control band.  Between them is the dead band where no control is required or
> generated.  Control systems that are modestly damped will have overshoot,
> which is to say that operation will rarely stay within the ideal confines of
> the dead band.  In Earth's case it will alternate between cold and hot.
> There is a specific oscillation period for a control system which does not
> become apparent if the system is critically damped.  The Earth is not
> critically damped in its thermal control system, and it exhibits a period of
> approximately 500 years.
>
> If, indeed, human activity has nudged the average temperature higher, the
> control system will generate all the more force "clouds" to bring it back
> down.
>
> You and others may be willing to argue that our activity has broken the
> control system.  But, so far, there is no indication of that other than the
> speculation that pent up methanes and hydrides could over tax the control
> system.
>

So we should pollute until we get a signal which is totally undeniable?
The scare tactics (which you mention later) aren't from those concerned with
Global Warming, they say that it is fixable.

There are scare tactics about but it's phony Terrorism not GW.

But these theories still don't propose that we should pump CO2 into the
> atmosphere to increase the temperature on earth and indeed most seem to
> think there is a problem but it's mainly caused by something else.
> But that doesn't invalidate it at all.
>
> The theory that there is no harm (yet) again doesn't try to show that
> there couldn't be, it simply argues that we aren't yet fucked, that's a
> pretty irresponsible argument.
>
> Unless timetravel is developed science will never be able to prove beyond
> a doubt what the future will bring, we can not really know what happened in
> the past either.
> There are sure to be scientists and evidence that disagree.
> But the case has been made very well and it is irresponsible to ignore it
> by throwing up a smoke screen, Does Al Gore gaining literal or political
> currency out of this invalidates it? And do you really expect me to hate
> Gore and side with Bush, are you high?
>
> Bush is not making my day in several areas.
>

Several areas? Ok so you are a Republican.

Would you really want to side with oil Execs interested in money over
> Green's interested in the planet and all it's inhabitants, you want me to
> believe the Greens are the bad guys, are you stupid?
>
> I thought you finally read my first post.  I said I want us off oil
> dependency.  I have a lot of time and money invested in that goal, but
> unfortunately with poor results.  What experiments have you done?
>

Plenty but this isn't the time...

You want me (on a Free Energy list) to be for oil and pollution and against
> alternative energy, are you a moron?
>
> Most likely though you are like me, you find the idea of Global Warming
> uncomfortable, you like contrarian ideas that go against the mainstream, you
> like to pay lots of attention to little known evidence or concepts even if
> they are mutually exclusive. (Though not a motive for me you may also use it
> as a way to avoid guilt)
>
> I want truth, honesty, and facts on this subject.
>

Yeah, Right. (funnier in New Zealand, trust me)

Why is it that those against GW have different conflicting arguments, the
only thing which unites them is they are anti (or an alternative or a
different spin on) GW.
You don't argue that CO2 isn't effecting temperatures you argue that high
CO2 we are experiencing is from Volcanoes. (I haven't noticed you argue that
our CO2 isn;'t high)
You Argue that the sun is heating things up.
And yet you argue that GW meetings are being canceled due to the cold.

You throw up OOPART's hoping to distract us.

> Instead, I see way too much hype, deception, and scare tactics.
>

Cause Bush isn't using deceptive scare tactics huh?

Again with all that's going on and you bash some Greens?
Al Gore is the only politician to address the issue, this is opposed in the
mainstream media, the white house and both political parties.
No question which is the underdog.

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<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/24/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Jeff Fink</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:revtec@ptd.net">revtec@ptd.net</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">












<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">

<div>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<div>

<div style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">

<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">

</span></font></div>

<p><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> John Berry
[mailto:<a href="mailto:aether22@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">aether22@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, April 23, 2007 10:12
AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> vortex-l<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> [Vo]:The Fallacy of
arguments against Global Warming</span></font></p>

</div><span class="q">

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">The problem with augments
against Global Warming is they lack pragmatism.<br>
<br>
There are in the end 2 types of arguments against GW, one is that either it&#39;s
cyclical or not (primarily) our fault or not happening &#39;yet&#39;, the other is that
pollution is good, these again are of 2 types,&nbsp; helping nature with a
carbon sink to help the fishes and plants (Which points out a good side of
pollution but doesn&#39;t negate GW) and another that hopes to so severely fuck
with the weather as to cause GW to stop an impending theorized ice age. <br>
<br>
Though it is a seriously bad idea to monkey with nature normally so I find it
very foolhardy but at least the latter makes sense in a way. (And better ways
exist)<br>
<br>
But the first type of argument fails to consider that the evidence of GW may be
correct, and I haven&#39;t noted a refutation of the data that shows temperature in
lockstep with CO2 nor a refutation that we are increasing CO2. <br>
The theories may be that something else is the cause of global warming such as
the suns output (funnily enough meters show less sunlight getting to the ground
not more) or a natural source of CO2 outgunning us.<font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"></span></font></span></font></p></span>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">So, on
the one hand, there is less solar energy getting to the ground, but on the
other hand, Mars is heating up.</span></font></p>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Mars has
little atmosphere, no clouds, and no discernable recent volcanic activity.&nbsp;
Its reflectivity is constant.&nbsp; That means that the Martian temperature
rise is a good indicator of increased solar output.&nbsp; The Earth's reflectivity
is changeable based on the extent of cloud cover.&nbsp; If the amount of
sunlight reaching the ground has decreased, as you say, despite increased solar
infusion, then we can conclude that it is caused by significantly increased
cloud cover.&nbsp; That makes sense since higher surface temperatures will
cause higher evaporation rates, and thus a more expansive cloud cover.&nbsp;
What we have demonstrated then is that the Earth has a very effective self
regulating mechanism to control temperature.&nbsp; The operation fits standard
control system theory.&nbsp; It's the same for everything from fly ball
governors to op amps.&nbsp; The control system must first detect an error
before it can implement a correction.&nbsp; The zone in which the correction is
made is called the control band.&nbsp; There is a high control band and a low
control band.&nbsp; Between them is the dead band where no control is required
or generated.&nbsp; Control systems that are modestly damped will have
overshoot, which is to say that operation will rarely stay within the ideal
confines of the dead band.&nbsp; In Earth's case it will alternate
between cold and hot.&nbsp; There is a specific oscillation period for a
control system which does not become apparent if the system is critically
damped.&nbsp; The Earth is not critically damped in its thermal control system,
and it exhibits a period of approximately 500 years.</span></font></p>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">If,
indeed, human activity has nudged the average temperature higher, the control
system will generate all the more force "clouds" to bring it back
down.</span></font></p>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">You and
others may be willing to argue that our activity has broken the control system.&nbsp;
But, so far, there is no indication of that other than the speculation that
pent up methanes and hydrides could over tax the control system.</span></font></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br>So we should pollute until we get a signal which is totally undeniable?<br>The scare tactics (which you mention later) aren&#39;t from those concerned with Global Warming, they say that it is fixable.
<br><br>There are scare tactics about but it&#39;s phony Terrorism not GW.<br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div><span class="q"><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
But these theories still don&#39;t propose that we should pump CO2 into the
atmosphere to increase the temperature on earth and indeed most seem to think
there is a problem but it&#39;s mainly caused by something else. <br>
But that doesn&#39;t invalidate it at all.<br>
<br>
The theory that there is no harm (yet) again doesn&#39;t try to show that there
couldn&#39;t be, it simply argues that we aren&#39;t yet fucked, that&#39;s a pretty
irresponsible argument. <br>
<br>
Unless timetravel is developed science will never be able to prove beyond a
doubt what the future will bring, we can not really know what happened in the
past either.<br>
There are sure to be scientists and evidence that disagree. <br>
But the case has been made very well and it is irresponsible to ignore it by
throwing up a smoke screen, Does Al Gore gaining literal or political currency
out of this invalidates it? And do you really expect me to hate Gore and side
with Bush, are you high? <font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"></span></font></span></font></p></span>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Bush is
not making my day in several areas.</span></font></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Several areas? Ok so you are a Republican.<br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><span class="q"><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
Would you really want to side with oil Execs interested in money over Green&#39;s
interested in the planet and all it&#39;s inhabitants, you want me to believe the
Greens are the bad guys, are you stupid?<font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"></span></font></span></font></p></span>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I
thought you finally read my first post.&nbsp; I said I want us off oil dependency.&nbsp;
I have a lot of time and money invested in that goal, but unfortunately with
poor results.&nbsp; What experiments have you done?</span></font></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Plenty but this isn&#39;t the time... <br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><span class="q"><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">
You want me (on a Free Energy list) to be for oil and pollution and against
alternative energy, are you a moron? <br>
<br>
Most likely though you are like me, you find the idea of Global Warming
uncomfortable, you like contrarian ideas that go against the mainstream, you
like to pay lots of attention to little known evidence or concepts even if they
are mutually exclusive. (Though not a motive for me you may also use it as a
way to avoid guilt) <font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"></span></font></span></font></p></span>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I want
truth, honesty, and facts on this subject.</span></font></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Yeah, Right. (funnier in New Zealand, trust me)<br><br></div>Why is it that those against GW have different conflicting arguments, the only thing which unites them is they are anti (or an alternative or a different spin on) GW.
<br>You don&#39;t argue that CO2 isn&#39;t effecting temperatures you argue that high CO2 we are experiencing is from Volcanoes. (I haven&#39;t noticed you argue that our CO2 isn;&#39;t high)<br>You Argue that the sun is heating things up.
<br>And yet you argue that GW meetings are being canceled due to the cold.<br><br>You throw up OOPART&#39;s hoping to distract us.<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US"><div><p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Instead,
I see way too much hype, deception, and scare tactics.</span></font></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Cause Bush isn&#39;t using deceptive scare tactics huh?<br><br>Again with all that&#39;s going on and you bash some Greens?
<br>Al Gore is the only politician to address the issue, this is opposed in the mainstream media, the white house and both political parties.<br>No question which is the underdog.<br></div></div>

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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:24:27 -0700
From: Paul Lowrance <energymover@gmail.com>
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A new documentary, "Green: The New Red, White, and Blue" was just released on 
April 23 2007.  DTMS, Discovery times channel is broadcasting this documentary 
right now. Listen to it and tell me man contributed CO2 is not the cause of 
Global Warming!  Even Arnold Schwarzenegger states it's illogical to think over 
2000 scientists latest claims are incorrect that man is cause of GW.

I sent an email when they broadcast "GLOBAL WARMING: What You Need To Know with 
Tom Brokaw," which goes over more details including interviews of climate 
scientists.

Really the question should be how can "I" help decrease CO2 emissions.


Regards,
Paul Lowrance

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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:27:37 +1200
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
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Balls!

On 4/24/07, PHILIP WINESTONE <philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:
>
> You can always tell a good intelligent scientific discussion, because it
> always starts with "balls".  Something Newtonian I guess.
>
> CO2 affects the environment and so does water vapour.  CO2 also causes
> growth in plants, so we should be getting lots of nice green stuff in our
> gardens.
>
> Then there's the question of Bush and his quest for world domination by
> increasing CO2 in the atmosphere.  How he does this, I haven't a clue, but
> there are many people around who spend their time figuring out exactly how
> (and I) does this.
>
> Personally I don't think you can discuss "depth" and exposing real
> feelings (whatever that means) while you're on a "balls" rant.  You'd never
> hear the Dalai Lama saying "balls".  Is that because he's hiding his real
> feelings?
>
> Try getting to your own core, then worry about getting to the cores of all
> the others in this world, including Bush.
>
> P.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: John Berry <aether22@gmail.com>
> To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:56:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW
>
> Balls.
> The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't
> based on science, it's just a philosophy if you could call it that. (It's a
> stupid ignorant assumption you are happy to risk the world to)
> One thing you have to note is that there are 6 Billion of us puny humans,
> the second thing is that I totally agree with you, human's can't effect the
> CO2 level or the temperature.
> Technology can however.
>
> Ok, so they disputed it, should I take that to mean they refuted the data
> that CO2 has been rising?
> Because the evidence that CO2 effects global temperature is quite
> undeniable.
>
> I agree there is emotional nonsense but I think it is coming from deniers,
> perhaps because believing that Global Warming is happening is disquieting
> and people need to feel everything is ok, that's why people trust the
> system, politicians and doctors even if there is lots of evidence to the
> contrary.
> It's why people turn a blind eye to the poisons in their food.
> It's the same motivation that makes people not want to be responsible, not
> really present.
> So much of human existence is about hiding real feelings, real thought as
> things are without preconceptions.
> It is hard to really get to the core of people, people are used to being
> shallow not deep.
> Truth isn't our friend, nor is light.
>
> Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies.
>
> It isn't Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing.
>
>
> On 4/23/07, PHILIP WINESTONE < philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:
> >
> > Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly
> > refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph
> > that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the
> > Industrial Revolution.  These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but
> > it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional
> > nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others)
> > can make a killing.
> >
> > The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is that we puny
> > humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists,
> > have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming.  Like I
> > said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun dance.  Perhaps
> > even try some solid science.
> >
> > P.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Jeff Fink < revtec@ptd.net>
> > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM
> > Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW
> >
> >  Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global
> > warming".  He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the warmest ever
> > and you buy it as gospel.
> >
> >
> >
> > There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility
> > of some on this forum scares me.
> >
> >
> >
> > It has been much warmer not so long ago.
> >
> >
> >
> > Here is another example if your attention span will allow:
> >
> >
> >
> > We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at elevations of 3000
> > to 5000 feet.  They like it cool and moist, but don't like extreme sub
> > freezing temps or strong winds.
> >
> >
> >
> > There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the Colorado rockies at
> > Florissant at an elevation over 8000 feet.  They are exhibited in place in
> > excavated pits.  I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.  They did
> > not look entirely like rock.  I asked about it at the visitor's center, and
> > was told that they are only 50% fossilized.
> >
> > John. The rest is WOOD!
> >
> > John. How old aren't they?
> >
> >
> >
> > Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs. Disney bought one
> > of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband.  I saw it on display
> > outside at Disneyland around 1995.  It was located right next to the lake
> > near Adventure Land .  Those of you who get to Disneyland may still be able
> > to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now.
> >
> >
> >
> > There are many things about this planet's history that don't line up
> > with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making big expensive
> > mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data.
> >
> >
> >
> > Again I wonder.  What happened to the ice age we were threatened with in
> > the late 70's.
> >
> >
> >
> > It's ironic that many global warming events this past season were
> > cancelled due to extreme winter conditions.
> >
> >
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> > P.S.
> >
> >
> >
> > John. This is only my third post in over a year.  I read your stuff, and
> > you post almost everyday.  You could give me the courtesy of reading all of
> > what I said before you publicly call me an idiot, and perhaps point out
> > specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened.
> >
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007
> > 8:18 PM
> >
> >
>
>

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Balls!<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/24/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">PHILIP WINESTONE</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:philip.winestone@rogers.com">philip.winestone@rogers.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">You can always tell a good intelligent scientific discussion, because it always starts with &quot;balls&quot;.&nbsp; Something Newtonian I guess.
<br><br>CO2 affects the environment and so does water vapour.&nbsp; CO2 also causes growth in plants, so we should be getting lots of nice green stuff in our gardens.<br><br>Then there&#39;s the question of Bush and his quest for world domination by increasing CO2 in the atmosphere.&nbsp; How he does this, I haven&#39;t a clue, but there are many people around who spend their time figuring out exactly how (and I) does this.
<br><br>Personally I don&#39;t think you can discuss &quot;depth&quot; and exposing real feelings (whatever that means) while you&#39;re on a &quot;balls&quot; rant.&nbsp; You&#39;d never hear the Dalai Lama saying &quot;balls&quot;.&nbsp; Is that because
 he&#39;s hiding his real feelings?<br><br>Try getting to your own core, then worry about getting to the cores of all the others in this world, including Bush.<br><span class="sg"><br>P.<br><br><br></span><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span class="q">----- Original Message ----<br>From: John Berry &lt;<a href="mailto:aether22@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">aether22@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>To: <a href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
vortex-l@eskimo.com</a><br></span><span class="q">Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:56:59 AM<br>Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW<br><br></span><span class="q">Balls.<br>The argument that us &#39;puny humans&#39; can&#39;t effect the environment isn&#39;t based on science, it&#39;s just a philosophy if you could call it that. (It&#39;s a stupid ignorant assumption you are happy to risk the world to)
<br>One thing you have to note is that there are 6 Billion of us puny humans, the second thing is that I totally agree with you, human&#39;s can&#39;t effect the CO2 level or the temperature.<br>Technology can however.<br>

<br>Ok, so they disputed it, should I take that to mean they refuted the data that CO2 has been rising?<br>Because the evidence that CO2 effects global temperature is quite undeniable.<br><br>I agree there is emotional nonsense but I think it is coming from deniers, perhaps because believing that Global Warming is happening is disquieting and people need to feel everything is ok, that&#39;s why people trust the system, politicians and doctors even if there is lots of evidence to the contrary.
<br>It&#39;s why people turn a blind eye to the poisons in their food.<br>It&#39;s the same motivation that makes people not want to be responsible, not really present.<br>So much of human existence is about hiding real feelings, real thought as things are without preconceptions.
<br>It is hard to really get to the core of people, people are used to being shallow not deep.<br></span><span class="q">Truth isn&#39;t our friend, nor is light.<br><br></span><span class="q">Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies.
<br>
<br></span><span class="q">It isn&#39;t Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing.<br><br><br></span><div><span class="q"><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/23/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">PHILIP WINESTONE</b>
 &lt;<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philip.winestone@rogers.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
philip.winestone@rogers.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">

<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><span class="q">Then there&#39;s the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called &quot;hockey stick&quot; graph that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the Industrial Revolution.&nbsp; These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but it&#39;s difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can make a killing.
<br><br>The &quot;insufferable arrogance&quot; spoken of by others here, is that we puny humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists, have been largely ignored in the &quot;discussion&quot; on global warming.&nbsp; Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun
 dance.&nbsp; Perhaps even try some solid science.<br><span><br>P.</span></span><span><br><br><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span class="q">----- Original Message ----<br>
From: Jeff Fink &lt;
<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:revtec@ptd.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">revtec@ptd.net</a>&gt;<br></span><span class="q">To: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">

vortex-l@eskimo.com</a><br></span><span class="q">Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM<br></span><span class="q">Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW<br><br>


 


 

 

 

 

 

 





</span><div><span class="q">

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of &quot;global
warming&quot;.&nbsp; He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the
warmest ever and you buy it as gospel.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span class="q"> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility
of some on this forum scares me.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span class="q"> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">It has been much warmer not so long ago.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span class="q"> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Here is another example if your attention span will allow:</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at
elevations of 3000 to 5000 feet.&nbsp; They like it cool and moist, but don&#39;t
like extreme sub freezing temps or strong winds.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the
 Colorado rockies at Florissant 
at an elevation over 8000 feet.&nbsp; They are exhibited in place in excavated
pits.&nbsp; I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.&nbsp; They did not
look entirely like rock.&nbsp; I asked about it at the visitor&#39;s center,
and was told that they are only 50% fossilized. </span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. The rest is WOOD!&nbsp; </span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. How old aren&#39;t they?</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Back in the 50&#39;s, before this site was protected, Mrs.
Disney bought one of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband.&nbsp;
I saw it on display outside at Disneyland 
around 1995.&nbsp; It was located right next to the lake near
 Adventure Land .&nbsp;
Those of you who get to Disneyland may still
be able to see it if it hasn&#39;t rotted away by now.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span class="q"> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There are many things about this planet&#39;s history that
don&#39;t line up with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making
big expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span class="q"> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Again I wonder.&nbsp; What happened to the ice age we were
threatened with in the late 70&#39;s.&nbsp; </span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span class="q"> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">It&#39;s ironic that many global warming events this past
season were cancelled due to extreme winter conditions.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span class="q"> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Jeff</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">P.S.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. This is only my third post in over a year.&nbsp; I
read your stuff, and you post almost everyday.&nbsp; You could give me the
courtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly call me an idiot,
and perhaps point out specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

</span></div>

<br>

<span class="q"><p><font size="2">No virus found in this outgoing message.<br>
Checked by AVG Free Edition.<br>
Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 8:18 PM<br>
</font> </p>
</span></div><br></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
</div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:31:06 +1200
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW
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To expand on that, notice how the last thing Philip is interested in doing
is refuting the evidence that CO2 and Temperature are linked.
Or that CO2 is rising.

The core of the argument is never argued.

On 4/24/07, John Berry <aether22@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Balls!
>
> On 4/24/07, PHILIP WINESTONE <philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:
> >
> > You can always tell a good intelligent scientific discussion, because it
> > always starts with "balls".  Something Newtonian I guess.
> >
> > CO2 affects the environment and so does water vapour.  CO2 also causes
> > growth in plants, so we should be getting lots of nice green stuff in our
> > gardens.
> >
> > Then there's the question of Bush and his quest for world domination by
> > increasing CO2 in the atmosphere.  How he does this, I haven't a clue, but
> > there are many people around who spend their time figuring out exactly how
> > (and I) does this.
> >
> > Personally I don't think you can discuss "depth" and exposing real
> > feelings (whatever that means) while you're on a "balls" rant.  You'd never
> > hear the Dalai Lama saying "balls".  Is that because he's hiding his real
> > feelings?
> >
> > Try getting to your own core, then worry about getting to the cores of
> > all the others in this world, including Bush.
> >
> > P.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: John Berry <aether22@gmail.com>
> > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:56:59 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW
> >
> > Balls.
> > The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't
> > based on science, it's just a philosophy if you could call it that. (It's a
> > stupid ignorant assumption you are happy to risk the world to)
> > One thing you have to note is that there are 6 Billion of us puny
> > humans, the second thing is that I totally agree with you, human's can't
> > effect the CO2 level or the temperature.
> > Technology can however.
> >
> > Ok, so they disputed it, should I take that to mean they refuted the
> > data that CO2 has been rising?
> > Because the evidence that CO2 effects global temperature is quite
> > undeniable.
> >
> > I agree there is emotional nonsense but I think it is coming from
> > deniers, perhaps because believing that Global Warming is happening is
> > disquieting and people need to feel everything is ok, that's why people
> > trust the system, politicians and doctors even if there is lots of evidence
> > to the contrary.
> > It's why people turn a blind eye to the poisons in their food.
> > It's the same motivation that makes people not want to be responsible,
> > not really present.
> > So much of human existence is about hiding real feelings, real thought
> > as things are without preconceptions.
> > It is hard to really get to the core of people, people are used to being
> > shallow not deep.
> > Truth isn't our friend, nor is light.
> >
> > Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies.
> >
> > It isn't Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing.
> >
> >
> > On 4/23/07, PHILIP WINESTONE < philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly
> > > refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph
> > > that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the
> > > Industrial Revolution.  These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but
> > > it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional
> > > nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others)
> > > can make a killing.
> > >
> > > The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is that we puny
> > > humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists,
> > > have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming.  Like I
> > > said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun dance.  Perhaps
> > > even try some solid science.
> > >
> > > P.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: Jeff Fink < revtec@ptd.net>
> > > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
> > > Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM
> > > Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW
> > >
> > >  Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global
> > > warming".  He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the warmest ever
> > > and you buy it as gospel.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the
> > > gullibility of some on this forum scares me.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It has been much warmer not so long ago.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Here is another example if your attention span will allow:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at elevations of 3000
> > > to 5000 feet.  They like it cool and moist, but don't like extreme sub
> > > freezing temps or strong winds.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the Colorado rockies at
> > > Florissant at an elevation over 8000 feet.  They are exhibited in place in
> > > excavated pits.  I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.  They did
> > > not look entirely like rock.  I asked about it at the visitor's center, and
> > > was told that they are only 50% fossilized.
> > >
> > > John. The rest is WOOD!
> > >
> > > John. How old aren't they?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs. Disney bought
> > > one of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband.  I saw it on
> > > display outside at Disneyland around 1995.  It was located right next to the
> > > lake near Adventure Land .  Those of you who get to Disneyland may still be
> > > able to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There are many things about this planet's history that don't line up
> > > with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making big expensive
> > > mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Again I wonder.  What happened to the ice age we were threatened with
> > > in the late 70's.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It's ironic that many global warming events this past season were
> > > cancelled due to extreme winter conditions.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > P.S.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > John. This is only my third post in over a year.  I read your stuff,
> > > and you post almost everyday.  You could give me the courtesy of reading all
> > > of what I said before you publicly call me an idiot, and perhaps point out
> > > specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date:
> > > 4/22/2007 8:18 PM
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>

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To expand on that, notice how the last thing Philip is interested in doing is refuting the evidence that CO2 and Temperature are linked.<br>Or that CO2 is rising.<br><br>The core of the argument is never argued.<br><br><div>
<span class="gmail_quote">On 4/24/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">John Berry</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:aether22@gmail.com">aether22@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Balls!<div><span class="e" id="q_11220fc7f636572c_1"><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/24/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">PHILIP WINESTONE</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:philip.winestone@rogers.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
philip.winestone@rogers.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">You can always tell a good intelligent scientific discussion, because it always starts with &quot;balls&quot;.&nbsp; Something Newtonian I guess.
<br><br>CO2 affects the environment and so does water vapour.&nbsp; CO2 also causes growth in plants, so we should be getting lots of nice green stuff in our gardens.<br><br>Then there&#39;s the question of Bush and his quest for world domination by increasing CO2 in the atmosphere.&nbsp; How he does this, I haven&#39;t a clue, but there are many people around who spend their time figuring out exactly how (and I) does this.
<br><br>Personally I don&#39;t think you can discuss &quot;depth&quot; and exposing real feelings (whatever that means) while you&#39;re on a &quot;balls&quot; rant.&nbsp; You&#39;d never hear the Dalai Lama saying &quot;balls&quot;.&nbsp; Is that because
 he&#39;s hiding his real feelings?<br><br>Try getting to your own core, then worry about getting to the cores of all the others in this world, including Bush.<br><span><br>P.<br><br><br></span><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">

<span>----- Original Message ----<br>From: John Berry &lt;<a href="mailto:aether22@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">aether22@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>To: <a href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">

vortex-l@eskimo.com</a><br></span><span>Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:56:59 AM<br>Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW<br><br></span><span>Balls.<br>The argument that us &#39;puny humans&#39; can&#39;t effect the environment isn&#39;t based on science, it&#39;s just a philosophy if you could call it that. (It&#39;s a stupid ignorant assumption you are happy to risk the world to)
<br>One thing you have to note is that there are 6 Billion of us puny humans, the second thing is that I totally agree with you, human&#39;s can&#39;t effect the CO2 level or the temperature.<br>Technology can however.<br>


<br>Ok, so they disputed it, should I take that to mean they refuted the data that CO2 has been rising?<br>Because the evidence that CO2 effects global temperature is quite undeniable.<br><br>I agree there is emotional nonsense but I think it is coming from deniers, perhaps because believing that Global Warming is happening is disquieting and people need to feel everything is ok, that&#39;s why people trust the system, politicians and doctors even if there is lots of evidence to the contrary.
<br>It&#39;s why people turn a blind eye to the poisons in their food.<br>It&#39;s the same motivation that makes people not want to be responsible, not really present.<br>So much of human existence is about hiding real feelings, real thought as things are without preconceptions.
<br>It is hard to really get to the core of people, people are used to being shallow not deep.<br></span><span>Truth isn&#39;t our friend, nor is light.<br><br></span><span>Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies.
<br>
<br></span><span>It isn&#39;t Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing.<br><br><br></span><div><span><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/23/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">PHILIP WINESTONE</b>
 &lt;<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philip.winestone@rogers.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
philip.winestone@rogers.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">


<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><span>Then there&#39;s the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called &quot;hockey stick&quot; graph that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the Industrial Revolution.&nbsp; These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but it&#39;s difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can make a killing.
<br><br>The &quot;insufferable arrogance&quot; spoken of by others here, is that we puny humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists, have been largely ignored in the &quot;discussion&quot; on global warming.&nbsp; Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun
 dance.&nbsp; Perhaps even try some solid science.<br><span><br>P.</span></span><span><br><br><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span>----- Original Message ----<br>
From: Jeff Fink &lt;
<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:revtec@ptd.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">revtec@ptd.net</a>&gt;<br></span><span>To: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">


vortex-l@eskimo.com</a><br></span><span>Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM<br></span><span>Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW<br><br>


 


 

 

 

 

 

 





</span><div><span>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of &quot;global
warming&quot;.&nbsp; He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the
warmest ever and you buy it as gospel.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility
of some on this forum scares me.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">It has been much warmer not so long ago.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Here is another example if your attention span will allow:</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at
elevations of 3000 to 5000 feet.&nbsp; They like it cool and moist, but don&#39;t
like extreme sub freezing temps or strong winds.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the
 Colorado rockies at Florissant 
at an elevation over 8000 feet.&nbsp; They are exhibited in place in excavated
pits.&nbsp; I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.&nbsp; They did not
look entirely like rock.&nbsp; I asked about it at the visitor&#39;s center,
and was told that they are only 50% fossilized. </span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. The rest is WOOD!&nbsp; </span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. How old aren&#39;t they?</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Back in the 50&#39;s, before this site was protected, Mrs.
Disney bought one of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband.&nbsp;
I saw it on display outside at Disneyland 
around 1995.&nbsp; It was located right next to the lake near
 Adventure Land .&nbsp;
Those of you who get to Disneyland may still
be able to see it if it hasn&#39;t rotted away by now.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There are many things about this planet&#39;s history that
don&#39;t line up with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making
big expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Again I wonder.&nbsp; What happened to the ice age we were
threatened with in the late 70&#39;s.&nbsp; </span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">It&#39;s ironic that many global warming events this past
season were cancelled due to extreme winter conditions.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Jeff</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">P.S.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. This is only my third post in over a year.&nbsp; I
read your stuff, and you post almost everyday.&nbsp; You could give me the
courtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly call me an idiot,
and perhaps point out specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

</span></div>

<br>

<span><p><font size="2">No virus found in this outgoing message.<br>
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</span></div><br></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
</div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
</span></div></blockquote></div><br>

------=_Part_4156_22936171.1177374666809--

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr 23 17:34:52 2007
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nickp@wynterwood.co.uk>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:Global Warning
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Oh, forgot to mention - Of course CO2 rising followed ocean temperature 
changes (due to natural events) IN THE PAST. That is only to be expected. 
Those who point to this as some sort of proof that CO2 has no effect on 
global warming, and that the GW scientists have it back to front, are 
verging on barking mad. It does not prove that the current temperature rise 
has caused the elevated CO2 levels we see. That is highly illogical. In the 
past there was no excess source of CO2 injected into the atmosphere over 
hundreds of years at an increasing rate (along with increased deforestation 
and disruption of CO2 sinks too...). Volcanoes only temporarily "out CO2" 
us. In short, even if past records of ice cores etc of CO2 versus 
temperature show that CO2 incerases do not naturally lead temperature that 
is no "get out of jail free card" because forced injection of increasing 
amounts of sequestered carbon into the atmosphere, over hundreds of years, 
obviously can drive temperature... and is... and will...

Nick Palmer 

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr 23 19:06:16 2007
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Paul Lowrance wrote:

> thomas malloy wrote:
> > John Berry wrote:
>
> I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past 
> erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given duration***. 
> Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration."  IOW, humanity 
> continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year after year.


No, that's not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as much  
CO2 as  all human sources.



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Apr 23 21:38:41 2007
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from
http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2007/straight_2007-04-05.cfm

"Sometimes a Nobel is given to a guy who=B9s a flake but probably deserves it
anyhow. One case in point is Cambridge University professor Brian Josephson=
,
who was awarded a Nobel Prize in physics in 1973 for predicting how
electrons could tunnel through an insulating barrier. Later in life,
Josephson became a believer in the paranormal and a fan of such chimeras as
cold fusion and homeopathy; he directed the Mind-Matter Unification Project=
,
which among other things tried to use physics to explain telepathy."

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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:20:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: PHILIP WINESTONE <philip.winestone@rogers.com>
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You can always tell a good intelligent scientific discussion, because it always starts with "balls".  Something Newtonian I guess.

CO2 affects the environment and so does water vapour.  CO2 also causes growth in plants, so we should be getting lots of nice green stuff in our gardens.

Then there's the question of Bush and his quest for world domination by increasing CO2 in the atmosphere.  How he does this, I haven't a clue, but there are many people around who spend their time figuring out exactly how (and I) does this.

Personally I don't think you can discuss "depth" and exposing real feelings (whatever that means) while you're on a "balls" rant.  You'd never hear the Dalai Lama saying "balls".  Is that because he's hiding his real feelings?

Try getting to your own core, then worry about getting to the cores of all the others in this world, including Bush.

P.


----- Original Message ----
From: John Berry <aether22@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:56:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW

Balls.
The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't based on science, it's just a philosophy if you could call it that. (It's a stupid ignorant assumption you are happy to risk the world to)

One thing you have to note is that there are 6 Billion of us puny humans, the second thing is that I totally agree with you, human's can't effect the CO2 level or the temperature.
Technology can however.


Ok, so they disputed it, should I take that to mean they refuted the data that CO2 has been rising?
Because the evidence that CO2 effects global temperature is quite undeniable.

I agree there is emotional nonsense but I think it is coming from deniers, perhaps because believing that Global Warming is happening is disquieting and people need to feel everything is ok, that's why people trust the system, politicians and doctors even if there is lots of evidence to the contrary.

It's why people turn a blind eye to the poisons in their food.
It's the same motivation that makes people not want to be responsible, not really present.
So much of human existence is about hiding real feelings, real thought as things are without preconceptions.

It is hard to really get to the core of people, people are used to being shallow not deep.
Truth isn't our friend, nor is light.

Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies.


It isn't Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing.


On 4/23/07, PHILIP WINESTONE <
philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:
Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the Industrial Revolution.  These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can make a killing.


The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is that we puny humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists, have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming.  Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun
 dance.  Perhaps even try some solid science.

P.


----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Fink <
revtec@ptd.net>
To: 
vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM
Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW




 


 

 

 

 

 

 







Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global
warming".  He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the
warmest ever and you buy it as gospel.
 

  
 

There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility
of some on this forum scares me.
 

  
 

It has been much warmer not so long ago.
 

  
 

Here is another example if your attention span will allow:
 

  
 

We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at
elevations of 3000 to 5000 feet.  They like it cool and moist, but don't
like extreme sub freezing temps or strong winds.
 

  
 

There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the
 Colorado rockies at Florissant 
at an elevation over 8000 feet.  They are exhibited in place in excavated
pits.  I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.  They did not
look entirely like rock.  I asked about it at the visitor's center,
and was told that they are only 50% fossilized. 
 

John. The rest is WOOD!  
 

John. How old aren't they?
 

  
 

Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs.
Disney bought one of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband. 
I saw it on display outside at Disneyland 
around 1995.  It was located right next to the lake near
 Adventure Land . 
Those of you who get to Disneyland may still
be able to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now.
 

  
 

There are many things about this planet's history that
don't line up with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making
big expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data.
 

  
 

Again I wonder.  What happened to the ice age we were
threatened with in the late 70's.  
 

  
 

It's ironic that many global warming events this past
season were cancelled due to extreme winter conditions.
 

  
 

Jeff
 

  
 

P.S.
 

  
 

John. This is only my third post in over a year.  I
read your stuff, and you post almost everyday.  You could give me the
courtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly call me an idiot,
and perhaps point out specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened.
 

  
 







No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 8:18 PM

 













--0-1127486864-1177374016=:29277
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<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">You can always tell a good intelligent scientific discussion, because it always starts with "balls".&nbsp; Something Newtonian I guess.<br><br>CO2 affects the environment and so does water vapour.&nbsp; CO2 also causes growth in plants, so we should be getting lots of nice green stuff in our gardens.<br><br>Then there's the question of Bush and his quest for world domination by increasing CO2 in the atmosphere.&nbsp; How he does this, I haven't a clue, but there are many people around who spend their time figuring out exactly how (and I) does this.<br><br>Personally I don't think you can discuss "depth" and exposing real feelings (whatever that means) while you're on a "balls" rant.&nbsp; You'd never hear the Dalai Lama saying "balls".&nbsp; Is that because
 he's hiding his real feelings?<br><br>Try getting to your own core, then worry about getting to the cores of all the others in this world, including Bush.<br><br>P.<br><br><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">----- Original Message ----<br>From: John Berry &lt;aether22@gmail.com&gt;<br>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<br>Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:56:59 AM<br>Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW<br><br>Balls.<br>The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't based on science, it's just a philosophy if you could call it that. (It's a stupid ignorant assumption you are happy to risk the world to)
<br>One thing you have to note is that there are 6 Billion of us puny humans, the second thing is that I totally agree with you, human's can't effect the CO2 level or the temperature.<br>Technology can however.<br>
<br>Ok, so they disputed it, should I take that to mean they refuted the data that CO2 has been rising?<br>Because the evidence that CO2 effects global temperature is quite undeniable.<br><br>I agree there is emotional nonsense but I think it is coming from deniers, perhaps because believing that Global Warming is happening is disquieting and people need to feel everything is ok, that's why people trust the system, politicians and doctors even if there is lots of evidence to the contrary.
<br>It's why people turn a blind eye to the poisons in their food.<br>It's the same motivation that makes people not want to be responsible, not really present.<br>So much of human existence is about hiding real feelings, real thought as things are without preconceptions.
<br>It is hard to really get to the core of people, people are used to being shallow not deep.<br>Truth isn't our friend, nor is light.<br><br>Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies.<br>
<br>It isn't Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing.<br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/23/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">PHILIP WINESTONE</b> &lt;<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:philip.winestone@rogers.com">
philip.winestone@rogers.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the Industrial Revolution.&nbsp; These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can make a killing.
<br><br>The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is that we puny humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists, have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming.&nbsp; Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun
 dance.&nbsp; Perhaps even try some solid science.<br><span class="sg"><br>P.</span><span class="q"><br><br><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">----- Original Message ----<br>From: Jeff Fink &lt;
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:revtec@ptd.net">revtec@ptd.net</a>&gt;<br>To: <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">
vortex-l@eskimo.com</a><br>Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM<br>Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW<br><br>


 


 

 

 

 

 

 





<div>

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global
warming".&nbsp; He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the
warmest ever and you buy it as gospel.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility
of some on this forum scares me.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">It has been much warmer not so long ago.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Here is another example if your attention span will allow:</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at
elevations of 3000 to 5000 feet.&nbsp; They like it cool and moist, but don't
like extreme sub freezing temps or strong winds.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the
 Colorado rockies at Florissant 
at an elevation over 8000 feet.&nbsp; They are exhibited in place in excavated
pits.&nbsp; I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.&nbsp; They did not
look entirely like rock.&nbsp; I asked about it at the visitor's center,
and was told that they are only 50% fossilized. </span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. The rest is WOOD!&nbsp; </span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. How old aren't they?</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs.
Disney bought one of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband.&nbsp;
I saw it on display outside at Disneyland 
around 1995.&nbsp; It was located right next to the lake near
 Adventure Land .&nbsp;
Those of you who get to Disneyland may still
be able to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There are many things about this planet's history that
don't line up with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making
big expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Again I wonder.&nbsp; What happened to the ice age we were
threatened with in the late 70's.&nbsp; </span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">It's ironic that many global warming events this past
season were cancelled due to extreme winter conditions.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Jeff</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">P.S.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. This is only my third post in over a year.&nbsp; I
read your stuff, and you post almost everyday.&nbsp; You could give me the
courtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly call me an idiot,
and perhaps point out specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

</div>

<br>

<p><font size="2">No virus found in this outgoing message.<br>
Checked by AVG Free Edition.<br>
Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 8:18 PM<br>
</font> </p>
</div><br></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br>
</div><br></div></div></body></html>
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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 23:20:31 +1200
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [VO]:Global warning caused by humanity-- now factually based.
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On 4/23/07, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Terry (wishing he had a detachable penis)
>
> Hell no, you'd put it down somewhere and lose it.

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<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/23/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Terry Blanton</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:hohlraum@gmail.com">hohlraum@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br><br>Terry (wishing he had a detachable penis)<br><br></blockquote></div>Hell no, you&#39;d put it down somewhere and lose it.<br>

------=_Part_10496_2069099.1177413631460--

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Apr 24 05:38:19 2007
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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 5:37:38 -0700
From: OrionWorks <orionworks@charter.net>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW
Cc: thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net>
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> Paul Lowrance wrote:
> 
> > thomas malloy wrote:
> > > John Berry wrote:
> >
> > I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past 
> > erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given duration***. 
> > Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration."  IOW, humanity 
> > continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year after year.
> 
> 
> No, that's not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as much  
> CO2 as  all human sources.
> 

If the video gives no concrete reference point other than to state, "10 times as much CO2 as all human sources" then it is useless data. 

Such a claim can be interpreted anyway that is most convenient.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Subject: [Vo]:Another step > carbon neutral
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Finally, the Europeans move into the cutting edge of
renewable fuel

http://www.algaefuels.org/

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Subject: [Vo]:The MIT version
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is likely the inspiration for the European
"knock-off" bioreactor

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2004/algae.html

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thomas malloy wrote:
> Paul Lowrance wrote:
> 
>> thomas malloy wrote:
>> > John Berry wrote:
>>
>> I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past 
>> erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given duration***. 
>> Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration."  IOW, humanity 
>> continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year after year.
> 
> 
> No, that's not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as much  
> CO2 as  all human sources.


Please clarify. You claim that was stated in "An Inconvenient Truth" narrated by 
Al Gore?



Regards,
Paul Lowrance

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thomas malloy wrote:
> Paul Lowrance wrote:
> 
>> thomas malloy wrote:
>> > John Berry wrote:
>>
>> I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past 
>> erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given duration***. 
>> Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration."  IOW, humanity 
>> continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year after year.
> 
> 
> No, that's not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as much  
> CO2 as  all human sources.


Was that in reference to Africa's volcano Nyiragongo?


Regards,
Paul Lowrance

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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:42:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
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Subject: [Vo]:The CO2 "Branson Membrane"
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Richard Branson, virgin-deluxe, may end-up looking
devinely "inspired" (meme-brain) because of a
James-Burkean "Connection" which he probably has not
even anticipated. We may even call that future
connection the prize winning 'Branson membrane.'

Everyone who has thought about the Branson prize has
looked into the principles and processes involved in
CO2 removal from a mixed gas stream. Fred Sparber has
mentioned some techniques.  There is not much CO2
percentage-wise in air, but the economics for direct
removal still look decent IF (and probably ONLY IF)
that CO2 is immediately recycled into biofuel, to
displace some of the fossil fuel that casued it in the
first place. It makes no sense to pump CO2 into the
ground.

Wiki has a good CO2 article except it neglects much of
the 'recycling into biofuel' info below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide

Carbon dioxide is in the category of acid gases (as is
hydrogen sulfide and nitrogen oxides) and since it is
found in natural gas - where in combination with water
vapor, it becomes highly corrosive and rapidly
destroys pipelines and equipment-  unless it is
removed- we already know how to remove it quickly and
cheaply and enrich it from methane. 

A key point here is that - on exposure to water, CO2
comes a highly reactive chemical and is no longer
"inert". This is a key to how its own chemistry allows
an extraordinary conversion percentage (>100% of
apparent solar energy). 

The technology for membrane removal of CO2 (and other
methods) is already highly advanced for methane- and
that implies an easy route to the Branson Prize for
someone. Probably sooner rather than later. Let's hope
so, but not for the prize alone. There is much much
more which can be bootstraped onto a "Branson
Membrane" in the rural USA.

The 'acidity' of CO2 (carbolic acid etc) is actually
the key to a complex chemical pathway which allows
solar radiation to interact with algae as a catalyst,
and produce more net chemical energy than if 100% of
the solar energy falling on the surface of the
bioreactor were being converted. Algae farming is not
simply solar conversion - in fact, it is more similar
to a chemical factory which uses a solar-photons as a
catalyst.

Growing algae is most efficient if you add CO2 and
heat externally, instead of having an open pond heated
by the sun. Forced CO2 and added heat results in an
order of magnitude faster algae doubling-time this
way. This is how and why the various companies making
the bioreactors can claim biodiesel outputs of over
10,000 gallons per acre per year. I have seen one
claim of 20,000. OTOH - An open pond in a northern
latitude without forced CO2 will be lucky to return
1000 gallons per acre-year.

If this high figure were true in practice, and with a
value to the algae-farmer of ~$2 gallon (near future)
- how long will it be before many in rural areas will
be poised to convert a few acres of land into
biodiesel production?  - especially once the
techniques for active CO2 removal become perfected and
disseminated?  That may be the big follow-on advantage
of the Branson Prize and other similar incentives.

We may well be just now, in 2007, on the cusp of this
massive change in how we will fuel the USA in the
coming years - pending as an alternative - a
breakthrough in LENR or ZPE conversion (magnetics)
etc. If any of those comes along, biofuel will still
be a sensible stopgap measue.

CO2 is presently being removed in mega-tonnage from
natural gas pipelines by a wide variety of
technologies including absorption processes such as
the Benfield process (hot potassium carbonate) and
various Amine processes (formulated solvents);
cryogenic processes; adsorption processes, such as
pressure swing adsorption (PSA), thermal swing
adsorption (TSA) and iron sponge ... and ta-da:
specialty membranes. 

Only a variety of the membrane process is likely to be
cheap and simple enough to be developed for removing
CO2 from air for use in aquaculture by small farmers. 

Don't forget that in the South (USA) before tobacco
became a no-no, there perhaps 100,000 small farmers in
a handfull of states with so-called "allotments" of a
few acres. They were not making nearly as much money
on that addictive drug back then, as they could be in
the near future- making biodiesel. Lets see: if and
when these farmer convert their 5 acre plot over to
biodiesel  - that is 5 billion gallons worth $10
billion which stays at home instead of letting our
Saudi friends use it to reinvest in American companies
or else kill young American soldiers in Iraq and
Afganistan. 

If you remove enough CO2, using a diesel engine to
power the process, you can easily imagine a
self-powering process where some of your biofuel
powers the diesel engine which pumps air through a
"Branson Membrane" and recovers tons of CO2, which
together with its own emission and waste heat is
recycled into the bioreactors.

This may become so popular in rural Appalachia, for
instance, that it becomes necesary to put small algae
farmers on some kind of "biofuel allotment"...

yeah ... in my dreams...

Jones

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Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW
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Paul Lowrance wrote:

> thomas malloy wrote:
>
>> Paul Lowrance wrote:
>>
>>> thomas malloy wrote:
>>> > John Berry wrote:
>>>
>>> I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past 
>>> erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given 
>>> duration***. Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration."  
>>> IOW, humanity continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year 
>>> after year.
>>
>>
>>
>> No, that's not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as 
>> much  CO2 as  all human sources.
>
>
>
> Please clarify. You claim that was stated in "An Inconvenient Truth" 
> narrated by Al Gore?
>
Among other things, the video says that climate scientists who question 
man made GW do so at the risk of their career. It mentions volcanic 
produced gas, it contends that increases in atmospheric CO2 follow 
increases in ocean temperature. It doesn't mention undersea volcanos, 
and do we know how many of them there are. In increase in under sea 
volcanos would cause the deep oceans to warm up. The video does mention 
that an increase in ocean temperature reduces it's ability to hold CO2.

You really should watch the video 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 10:21:11 -0700
From: Paul Lowrance <energymover@gmail.com>
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thomas malloy wrote:
 > Paul Lowrance wrote:
 >
 >> thomas malloy wrote:
 >>
 >>> Paul Lowrance wrote:
 >>>
 >>>> thomas malloy wrote:
 >>>> > John Berry wrote:
 >>>>
 >>>> I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past
 >>>> erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given
 >>>> duration***. Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration."
 >>>> IOW, humanity continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year
 >>>> after year.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> No, that's not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as
 >>> much  CO2 as  all human sources.
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> Please clarify. You claim that was stated in "An Inconvenient Truth"
 >> narrated by Al Gore?
 >>
 > Among other things, the video says that climate scientists who question
 > man made GW do so at the risk of their career. It mentions volcanic
 > produced gas, it contends that increases in atmospheric CO2 follow
 > increases in ocean temperature. It doesn't mention undersea volcanos,
 > and do we know how many of them there are. In increase in under sea
 > volcanos would cause the deep oceans to warm up. The video does mention
 > that an increase in ocean temperature reduces it's ability to hold CO2.
 >
 > You really should watch the video
 > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU



You are greatly twisting and misinterpreting information. After some research it 
turns out you're terribly incorrect. Volcanoes spew out more *pollutants* such 
as SO2 than humans, but volcanoes do ***NOT*** create any where near as much CO2 
as humans.  In 2003 humans created ~140 times more CO2 than all the volcanoes on 
the entire planet combined, including all the volcanoes under water, and it's 
probably higher in 2007..

http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Hazards/What/VolGas/volgas.html
Scroll down to "Comparison of CO2 emissions from volcanoes vs. human activities"

http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/volcanowatch/2007/07_02_15.html


Here's Al Gores Global Warming speech:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2565436963450479963&q=%22An+Inconvenient+Truth%22+al+gore+duration%3Along&hl=en

Scroll to 27:12 minutes to see the CO2 & temperature chart spanning the past 
400,000 years that includes present humanity. See all of the ice age cycles, but 
when it hits modern time the CO2 spikes to ~5 times the maximum of any ice 
age!!!  Here's an image of the chart -->

http://www.indorphyn.com/images/al_gore-co2-temp-slide.jpg

Notice how CO2, yellow line at the right, suddenly increases by ~5 times the max 
of any ice age when modern humanity arrives. That is Global Warming!!! It is 
*NOT* caused by volcanoes.


Regards,
Paul Lowrance

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Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 05:24:53 +1200
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
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Thomas, so what?

Are you saying you have no doubt that man can pollute unchecked and be
assured no impact on the climate?
Even if you did why should pollution and oil be supported, even in your
right wing view of the world shouldn't Oil be given up for an alternative
energy?
Are you trying to support those evil Arab terrorists who hate your freedom
and want to kill you?

Am I 100% convinced by conventional GW, no.
But there is a very real chance and I don't believe in fucking with nature
for the sake of it and I believe in supporting alternative energy.

And despite what someone said the most common topic of this list is
alternative energy. (not the only topic)

On 4/25/07, thomas malloy <temalloy@usfamily.net> wrote:
>
> Paul Lowrance wrote:
>
> > thomas malloy wrote:
> >
> >> Paul Lowrance wrote:
> >>
> >>> thomas malloy wrote:
> >>> > John Berry wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past
> >>> erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given
> >>> duration***. Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration."
> >>> IOW, humanity continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year
> >>> after year.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> No, that's not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as
> >> much  CO2 as  all human sources.
> >
> >
> >
> > Please clarify. You claim that was stated in "An Inconvenient Truth"
> > narrated by Al Gore?
> >
> Among other things, the video says that climate scientists who question
> man made GW do so at the risk of their career. It mentions volcanic
> produced gas, it contends that increases in atmospheric CO2 follow
> increases in ocean temperature. It doesn't mention undersea volcanos,
> and do we know how many of them there are. In increase in under sea
> volcanos would cause the deep oceans to warm up. The video does mention
> that an increase in ocean temperature reduces it's ability to hold CO2.
>
> You really should watch the video
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU
>
>
> --- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! --
> http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---
>
>

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Thomas, so what?<br><br>Are you saying you have no doubt that man can pollute unchecked and be assured no impact on the climate?<br>Even if you did why should pollution and oil be supported, even in your right wing view of the world shouldn&#39;t Oil be given up for an alternative energy?
<br>Are you trying to support those evil Arab terrorists who hate your freedom and want to kill you?<br><br>Am I 100% convinced by conventional GW, no.<br>But there is a very real chance and I don&#39;t believe in fucking with nature for the sake of it and I believe in supporting alternative energy.
<br><br>And despite what someone said the most common topic of this list is alternative energy. (not the only topic)<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/25/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">thomas malloy</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:temalloy@usfamily.net">
temalloy@usfamily.net</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Paul Lowrance wrote:<br><br>&gt; thomas malloy wrote:
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Paul Lowrance wrote:<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; thomas malloy wrote:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; John Berry wrote:<br>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; duration***. Oddly enough you&#39;re missing a huge factor, &quot;Duration.&quot;<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; IOW, humanity continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year
<br>&gt;&gt;&gt; after year.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; No, that&#39;s not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as<br>&gt;&gt; much&nbsp;&nbsp;CO2 as&nbsp;&nbsp;all human sources.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Please clarify. You claim that was stated in &quot;An Inconvenient Truth&quot;
<br>&gt; narrated by Al Gore?<br>&gt;<br>Among other things, the video says that climate scientists who question<br>man made GW do so at the risk of their career. It mentions volcanic<br>produced gas, it contends that increases in atmospheric CO2 follow
<br>increases in ocean temperature. It doesn&#39;t mention undersea volcanos,<br>and do we know how many of them there are. In increase in under sea<br>volcanos would cause the deep oceans to warm up. The video does mention
<br>that an increase in ocean temperature reduces it&#39;s ability to hold CO2.<br><br>You really should watch the video<br><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU</a>
<br><br><br>--- <a href="http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html">http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html</a> - $8.25/mo! -- <a href="http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html">http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html</a> - $19.99/mo! ---<br><br></blockquote>
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Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 05:26:34 +1200
From: "John Berry" <aether22@gmail.com>
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I knew that Volcaino sh*t was bunk, thanks for finding the evidence.

On 4/25/07, Paul Lowrance <energymover@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> thomas malloy wrote:
> > Paul Lowrance wrote:
> >
> >> thomas malloy wrote:
> >>
> >>> Paul Lowrance wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> thomas malloy wrote:
> >>>> > John Berry wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past
> >>>> erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given
> >>>> duration***. Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration."
> >>>> IOW, humanity continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year
> >>>> after year.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> No, that's not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as
> >>> much  CO2 as  all human sources.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Please clarify. You claim that was stated in "An Inconvenient Truth"
> >> narrated by Al Gore?
> >>
> > Among other things, the video says that climate scientists who question
> > man made GW do so at the risk of their career. It mentions volcanic
> > produced gas, it contends that increases in atmospheric CO2 follow
> > increases in ocean temperature. It doesn't mention undersea volcanos,
> > and do we know how many of them there are. In increase in under sea
> > volcanos would cause the deep oceans to warm up. The video does mention
> > that an increase in ocean temperature reduces it's ability to hold CO2.
> >
> > You really should watch the video
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU
>
>
>
> You are greatly twisting and misinterpreting information. After some
> research it
> turns out you're terribly incorrect. Volcanoes spew out more *pollutants*
> such
> as SO2 than humans, but volcanoes do ***NOT*** create any where near as
> much CO2
> as humans.  In 2003 humans created ~140 times more CO2 than all the
> volcanoes on
> the entire planet combined, including all the volcanoes under water, and
> it's
> probably higher in 2007..
>
> http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Hazards/What/VolGas/volgas.html
> Scroll down to "Comparison of CO2 emissions from volcanoes vs. human
> activities"
>
> http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/volcanowatch/2007/07_02_15.html
>
>
> Here's Al Gores Global Warming speech:
>
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2565436963450479963&q=%22An+Inconvenient+Truth%22+al+gore+duration%3Along&hl=en
>
> Scroll to 27:12 minutes to see the CO2 & temperature chart spanning the
> past
> 400,000 years that includes present humanity. See all of the ice age
> cycles, but
> when it hits modern time the CO2 spikes to ~5 times the maximum of any ice
> age!!!  Here's an image of the chart -->
>
> http://www.indorphyn.com/images/al_gore-co2-temp-slide.jpg
>
> Notice how CO2, yellow line at the right, suddenly increases by ~5 times
> the max
> of any ice age when modern humanity arrives. That is Global Warming!!! It
> is
> *NOT* caused by volcanoes.
>
>
> Regards,
> Paul Lowrance
>
>

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I knew that Volcaino sh*t was bunk, thanks for finding the evidence.<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/25/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Paul Lowrance</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:energymover@gmail.com">energymover@gmail.com
</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">thomas malloy wrote:<br> &gt; Paul Lowrance wrote:<br> &gt;<br> &gt;&gt; thomas malloy wrote:
<br> &gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; Paul Lowrance wrote:<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; thomas malloy wrote:<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; John Berry wrote:<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past
<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; duration***. Oddly enough you&#39;re missing a huge factor, &quot;Duration.&quot;<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; IOW, humanity continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year
<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; after year.<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; No, that&#39;s not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as<br> &gt;&gt;&gt; much&nbsp;&nbsp;CO2 as&nbsp;&nbsp;all human sources.
<br> &gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt;<br> &gt;&gt; Please clarify. You claim that was stated in &quot;An Inconvenient Truth&quot;<br> &gt;&gt; narrated by Al Gore?<br> &gt;&gt;<br> &gt; Among other things, the video says that climate scientists who question
<br> &gt; man made GW do so at the risk of their career. It mentions volcanic<br> &gt; produced gas, it contends that increases in atmospheric CO2 follow<br> &gt; increases in ocean temperature. It doesn&#39;t mention undersea volcanos,
<br> &gt; and do we know how many of them there are. In increase in under sea<br> &gt; volcanos would cause the deep oceans to warm up. The video does mention<br> &gt; that an increase in ocean temperature reduces it&#39;s ability to hold CO2.
<br> &gt;<br> &gt; You really should watch the video<br> &gt; <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU</a><br><br><br><br>You are greatly twisting and misinterpreting information. After some research it
<br>turns out you&#39;re terribly incorrect. Volcanoes spew out more *pollutants* such<br>as SO2 than humans, but volcanoes do ***NOT*** create any where near as much CO2<br>as humans.&nbsp;&nbsp;In 2003 humans created ~140 times more CO2 than all the volcanoes on
<br>the entire planet combined, including all the volcanoes under water, and it&#39;s<br>probably higher in 2007..<br><br><a href="http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Hazards/What/VolGas/volgas.html">http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Hazards/What/VolGas/volgas.html
</a><br>Scroll down to &quot;Comparison of CO2 emissions from volcanoes vs. human activities&quot;<br><br><a href="http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/volcanowatch/2007/07_02_15.html">http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/volcanowatch/2007/07_02_15.html
</a><br><br><br>Here&#39;s Al Gores Global Warming speech:<br><a href="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2565436963450479963&amp;q=%22An+Inconvenient+Truth%22+al+gore+duration%3Along&amp;hl=en">http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2565436963450479963&amp;q=%22An+Inconvenient+Truth%22+al+gore+duration%3Along&amp;hl=en
</a><br><br>Scroll to 27:12 minutes to see the CO2 &amp; temperature chart spanning the past<br>400,000 years that includes present humanity. See all of the ice age cycles, but<br>when it hits modern time the CO2 spikes to ~5 times the maximum of any ice
<br>age!!!&nbsp;&nbsp;Here&#39;s an image of the chart --&gt;<br><br><a href="http://www.indorphyn.com/images/al_gore-co2-temp-slide.jpg">http://www.indorphyn.com/images/al_gore-co2-temp-slide.jpg</a><br><br>Notice how CO2, yellow line at the right, suddenly increases by ~5 times the max
<br>of any ice age when modern humanity arrives. That is Global Warming!!! It is<br>*NOT* caused by volcanoes.<br><br><br>Regards,<br>Paul Lowrance<br><br></blockquote></div><br>

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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Apr 24 10:47:12 2007
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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:46:53 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases
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Nitrogen 78.084%
Oxygen 20.946%
Argon 0.934%
Carbon dioxide 0.038%
Water vapor 1%
Other 0.002%

CO2 content has increased 0.008% in my lifetime.

I must be missing something.

Terry

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Apr 24 11:11:32 2007
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Terry Blanton wrote:
> Nitrogen 78.084%
> Oxygen 20.946%
> Argon 0.934%
> Carbon dioxide 0.038%
> Water vapor 1%
> Other 0.002%
> 
> CO2 content has increased 0.008% in my lifetime.
> 
> I must be missing something.
> 
> Terry


Then I calculate you to be ~2.2 years old, LOL.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines07/0203-03.htm

http://www.indorphyn.com/images/al_gore-co2-temp-slide.jpg

Quote:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ipcc.ch%2FSPM2feb07.pdf&ei=HUYuRtyVGp-QigGm94yLAw&usg=AFrqEzco11WPrpvAFxct-QFhkhls7QzqdQ&sig2=I6Yeyx6-KIn05khIRTVFXA
"Carbon dioxide is the most important anthropogenic greenhouse gas (see Figure 
SPM-2). The global  atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide has increased 
from a pre-industrial value of about 280 ppm to 379 ppm in 2005. The atmospheric 
concentration of carbon dioxide in 2005 exceeds by far the natural range over 
the last 650,000 years (180 to 300 ppm) as determined from ice cores. The annual 
carbon dioxide  concentration growth-rate was larger during the last 10 years 
(1995 - 2005 average: 1.9 ppm per year), than  has been since the beginning of 
continuous direct atmospheric measurements (1960 - 2005 average: 1.4 ppm per 
year) although there is year-to-year variability in growth rates."


Regards,
Paul Lowrance

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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:06:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
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Subject: [Vo]:Simply sublime? Orthocarbonic acid
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Kind of slow spring day .... IOW ... Surf's Up !!

Wiki mentions Deep Ocean storage of CO2. 

The following is all theoretical bogosity - but it is
true that at sufficiently high pressure, which in the
ocean corresponds to around 500 meters depth: CO2 in
the presence of water - i.e. CO2+ 2 H2O is believed to
form a mysterious and (apparently) inert compound
called orthocarbonic acid, or C(OH)4. Problem is - no
one really knows if it is inert or not. But we damn
sure know that all those hydroxyls make it seem pretty
potent... and if nothing else, this may be how those
foamy bottles of Guiness stout get all the impossible
amount of bubbles. Burp.

Hmm... that "apparently" inert compound C(OH)4 would
certainly be unstable if suddenly the pressure were
reduced - leading one to wonder if there is some way
to manipulate the hydroxyl radicals, free the carbon
and "reburn"  even in the ocean depths...

...perhaps over and over... like maybe to heat that
"USO base" which is supposedly over a mile deep in the
Bermuda Triangle, off of Puerto Rico <g> .... get's
pretty chilly down there and E.T. don't got much hair,
as they say.

...hey, even if E.T. got to Earth using higher tech
means - they may need to save most of their di-lithium
crystals to get back to Sirius, one of these days,
after the mission is accomplished. 

Obviously, this orthocarbonic acid manipulation would
ostensibly violate the LoT if the energy released were
far greater than the pressurization energy -- except
that CO2 can be frozen easily in cold climates to dry
ice - which in half again denser than water, and will
then be able to sink, to any level, in the ocean (if
insulated) ... ergo in one sense, the high
pressurization is "free."

... see where this is going? Yes, there is an obiovus
error in the logic, but it sounds good enough to be a
hard-science-fiction theme... and any number of Vo's
will buy it 'as is'.... matter of fact Hoagland is on
the phone now - wanting to buy full rights to the
concept...

Jones

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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 12:30:09 -0700
From: Paul Lowrance <energymover@gmail.com>
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Jones Beene wrote:
[snip]
> Yes, there is an obiovus
> error in the logic, but it sounds good enough to be a
> hard-science-fiction theme... and any number of Vo's
> will buy it 'as is'.... matter of fact Hoagland is on
> the phone now - wanting to buy full rights to the
> concept...



LOL, Hoagland ...

Good one Jones!

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Actually, for the purposes of scientific argument, "bollocks" is much preferred.

P.


----- Original Message ----
From: John Berry <aether22@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 8:27:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW

Balls!

On 4/24/07, PHILIP WINESTONE <philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:
You can always tell a good intelligent scientific discussion, because it always starts with "balls".  Something Newtonian I guess.


CO2 affects the environment and so does water vapour.  CO2 also causes growth in plants, so we should be getting lots of nice green stuff in our gardens.

Then there's the question of Bush and his quest for world domination by increasing CO2 in the atmosphere.  How he does this, I haven't a clue, but there are many people around who spend their time figuring out exactly how (and I) does this.


Personally I don't think you can discuss "depth" and exposing real feelings (whatever that means) while you're on a "balls" rant.  You'd never hear the Dalai Lama saying "balls".  Is that because
 he's hiding his real feelings?

Try getting to your own core, then worry about getting to the cores of all the others in this world, including Bush.

P.



----- Original Message ----
From: John Berry <aether22@gmail.com>
To: 
vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:56:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW

Balls.
The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't based on science, it's just a philosophy if you could call it that. (It's a stupid ignorant assumption you are happy to risk the world to)

One thing you have to note is that there are 6 Billion of us puny humans, the second thing is that I totally agree with you, human's can't effect the CO2 level or the temperature.
Technology can however.



Ok, so they disputed it, should I take that to mean they refuted the data that CO2 has been rising?
Because the evidence that CO2 effects global temperature is quite undeniable.

I agree there is emotional nonsense but I think it is coming from deniers, perhaps because believing that Global Warming is happening is disquieting and people need to feel everything is ok, that's why people trust the system, politicians and doctors even if there is lots of evidence to the contrary.

It's why people turn a blind eye to the poisons in their food.
It's the same motivation that makes people not want to be responsible, not really present.
So much of human existence is about hiding real feelings, real thought as things are without preconceptions.

It is hard to really get to the core of people, people are used to being shallow not deep.
Truth isn't our friend, nor is light.

Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies.



It isn't Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing.


On 4/23/07, PHILIP WINESTONE
 <
philip.winestone@rogers.com> wrote:

Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the Industrial Revolution.  These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can make a killing.


The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is that we puny humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists, have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming.  Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun
 dance.  Perhaps even try some solid science.

P.


----- Original Message ----

From: Jeff Fink <
revtec@ptd.net>
To: 

vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM
Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW




 


 

 

 

 

 

 







Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global
warming".  He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the
warmest ever and you buy it as gospel.
 

  
 

There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility
of some on this forum scares me.
 

  
 

It has been much warmer not so long ago.
 

  
 

Here is another example if your attention span will allow:
 

  
 

We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at
elevations of 3000 to 5000 feet.  They like it cool and moist, but don't
like extreme sub freezing temps or strong winds.
 

  
 

There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the
 Colorado rockies at Florissant 
at an elevation over 8000 feet.  They are exhibited in place in excavated
pits.  I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.  They did not
look entirely like rock.  I asked about it at the visitor's center,
and was told that they are only 50% fossilized. 
 

John. The rest is WOOD!  
 

John. How old aren't they?
 

  
 

Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs.
Disney bought one of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband. 
I saw it on display outside at Disneyland 
around 1995.  It was located right next to the lake near
 Adventure Land . 
Those of you who get to Disneyland may still
be able to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now.
 

  
 

There are many things about this planet's history that
don't line up with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making
big expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data.
 

  
 

Again I wonder.  What happened to the ice age we were
threatened with in the late 70's.  
 

  
 

It's ironic that many global warming events this past
season were cancelled due to extreme winter conditions.
 

  
 

Jeff
 

  
 

P.S.
 

  
 

John. This is only my third post in over a year.  I
read your stuff, and you post almost everyday.  You could give me the
courtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly call me an idiot,
and perhaps point out specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened.
 

  
 







No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.463 / Virus Database: 269.5.9/773 - Release Date: 4/22/2007 8:18 PM

 





















--0-289923317-1177415184=:22941
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<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">Actually, for the purposes of scientific argument, "bollocks" is much preferred.<br><br>P.<br><br><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">----- Original Message ----<br>From: John Berry &lt;aether22@gmail.com&gt;<br>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<br>Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 8:27:37 PM<br>Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW<br><br>Balls!<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/24/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">PHILIP WINESTONE</b> &lt;<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:philip.winestone@rogers.com">philip.winestone@rogers.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">You can always tell a good intelligent scientific discussion, because it always starts with "balls".&nbsp; Something Newtonian I guess.
<br><br>CO2 affects the environment and so does water vapour.&nbsp; CO2 also causes growth in plants, so we should be getting lots of nice green stuff in our gardens.<br><br>Then there's the question of Bush and his quest for world domination by increasing CO2 in the atmosphere.&nbsp; How he does this, I haven't a clue, but there are many people around who spend their time figuring out exactly how (and I) does this.
<br><br>Personally I don't think you can discuss "depth" and exposing real feelings (whatever that means) while you're on a "balls" rant.&nbsp; You'd never hear the Dalai Lama saying "balls".&nbsp; Is that because
 he's hiding his real feelings?<br><br>Try getting to your own core, then worry about getting to the cores of all the others in this world, including Bush.<br><span class="sg"><br>P.<br><br><br></span><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span class="q">----- Original Message ----<br>From: John Berry &lt;<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:aether22@gmail.com">aether22@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>To: <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">
vortex-l@eskimo.com</a><br></span><span class="q">Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 7:56:59 AM<br>Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW<br><br></span><span class="q">Balls.<br>The argument that us 'puny humans' can't effect the environment isn't based on science, it's just a philosophy if you could call it that. (It's a stupid ignorant assumption you are happy to risk the world to)
<br>One thing you have to note is that there are 6 Billion of us puny humans, the second thing is that I totally agree with you, human's can't effect the CO2 level or the temperature.<br>Technology can however.<br>

<br>Ok, so they disputed it, should I take that to mean they refuted the data that CO2 has been rising?<br>Because the evidence that CO2 effects global temperature is quite undeniable.<br><br>I agree there is emotional nonsense but I think it is coming from deniers, perhaps because believing that Global Warming is happening is disquieting and people need to feel everything is ok, that's why people trust the system, politicians and doctors even if there is lots of evidence to the contrary.
<br>It's why people turn a blind eye to the poisons in their food.<br>It's the same motivation that makes people not want to be responsible, not really present.<br>So much of human existence is about hiding real feelings, real thought as things are without preconceptions.
<br>It is hard to really get to the core of people, people are used to being shallow not deep.<br></span><span class="q">Truth isn't our friend, nor is light.<br><br></span><span class="q">Or perhaps because they voted for Bush and own stock in oil companies.
<br>
<br></span><span class="q">It isn't Gore making a killing, Bush has the monopoly on killing.<br><br><br></span><div><span class="q"><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/23/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">PHILIP WINESTONE</b>
 &lt;<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:philip.winestone@rogers.com">
philip.winestone@rogers.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">

<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><span class="q">Then there's the small matter of two Canadian scientists who utterly refuted the thinking/mathematics behind the so-called "hockey stick" graph that showed how much we puny humans have influenced climate since the Industrial Revolution.&nbsp; These chaps have been all but totally ignored, but it's difficult to find a more elegant way of showing just how much emotional nonsense is being spouted by the likes of Gore so that he (and many others) can make a killing.
<br><br>The "insufferable arrogance" spoken of by others here, is that we puny humans can influence natural solar cycles, which like the above scientists, have been largely ignored in the "discussion" on global warming.&nbsp; Like I said before, lets get out the fire hoses; perhaps do a sun
 dance.&nbsp; Perhaps even try some solid science.<br><span><br>P.</span></span><span><br><br><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><span class="q">----- Original Message ----<br>
From: Jeff Fink &lt;
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:revtec@ptd.net">revtec@ptd.net</a>&gt;<br></span><span class="q">To: <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com">

vortex-l@eskimo.com</a><br></span><span class="q">Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 5:44:58 AM<br></span><span class="q">Subject: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW<br><br>


 


 

 

 

 

 

 





</span><div><span class="q">

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Al Gore is poised to make millions if not billions off of "global
warming".&nbsp; He puts some chart in his movie saying it is now the
warmest ever and you buy it as gospel.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span class="q"> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There are some flakey snake oil salesmen out there, and the gullibility
of some on this forum scares me.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span class="q"> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">It has been much warmer not so long ago.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span class="q"> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Here is another example if your attention span will allow:</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">We have huge sequoia trees growing in central CA at
elevations of 3000 to 5000 feet.&nbsp; They like it cool and moist, but don't
like extreme sub freezing temps or strong winds.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There are fossilized stumps of sequoias in the
 Colorado rockies at Florissant 
at an elevation over 8000 feet.&nbsp; They are exhibited in place in excavated
pits.&nbsp; I saw them. But, they looked a little strange.&nbsp; They did not
look entirely like rock.&nbsp; I asked about it at the visitor's center,
and was told that they are only 50% fossilized. </span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. The rest is WOOD!&nbsp; </span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. How old aren't they?</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Back in the 50's, before this site was protected, Mrs.
Disney bought one of these stumps for a birthday present for her husband.&nbsp;
I saw it on display outside at Disneyland 
around 1995.&nbsp; It was located right next to the lake near
 Adventure Land .&nbsp;
Those of you who get to Disneyland may still
be able to see it if it hasn't rotted away by now.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span class="q"> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There are many things about this planet's history that
don't line up with present day thinking. Let us not be duped into making
big expensive mistakes by selectively ignoring certain historical data.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span class="q"> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Again I wonder.&nbsp; What happened to the ice age we were
threatened with in the late 70's.&nbsp; </span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span class="q"> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">It's ironic that many global warming events this past
season were cancelled due to extreme winter conditions.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p></span><span class="q"> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Jeff</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">P.S.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">John. This is only my third post in over a year.&nbsp; I
read your stuff, and you post almost everyday.&nbsp; You could give me the
courtesy of reading all of what I said before you publicly call me an idiot,
and perhaps point out specific errors in my writings so that I may be enlightened.</span></font></p> 

<p><font face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> 

</span></div>

<br>

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On 4/24/07, Paul Lowrance <energymover@gmail.com> wrote:

> Then I calculate you to be ~2.2 years old, LOL.

Maybe mentally.  :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide

Half way down.  In 1960 CO2 was 310 ppm.  Now it's 380 ppm.  This
causes drastic changes in climate?!?

Terry

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Terry Blanton wrote:

>Half way down.  In 1960 CO2 was 310 ppm.  Now it's 380 ppm.  This
>causes drastic changes in climate?!?

Yes, it does.

This reminds me of the idiotic comment by Michael Crichton that Terry 
Blanton quoted here in 2005:

"Imagine the composition of the Earth's atmosphere as a football 
field. Most of the atmosphere is nitrogen. So, starting from the goal 
line, nitrogen takes you all the way to the 78 yard line. And most of 
what's left is oxygen. Oxygen takes you to the 99 yard line. Most of 
what remains is the inert gas argon. Argon brings you within 3 1/2 
inches of the goal line. That's pretty much the thickness of the 
chalk stripe. And how much of the remaining three inches is carbon 
dioxide? One inch.

"You are told carbon dioxide has increased in the last 50 years. Do 
you know how much it has increased, on our football field? 
Three-eighths of an inch -- less than the thickness of a pencil. Yet 
you are asked to believe that this tiny change has driven the entire 
planet into a dangerous warming pattern."

Ed Storms wrote an excellent rebuttal:

"An interesting point.  This same point can be made about 
cyanide.  An average person weighs about 80,000 gm.  It takes about 
50 mg of NaCN to kill an average person, which is only 0.0022 inches 
on the football field.  Obviously, a person can not be harmed by such 
a small distance.

No wonder the average person has no understanding of the real world 
when this kind of argument is used."

- Jed

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On 4/24/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:

> This reminds me of the idiotic comment by Michael Crichton that Terry
> Blanton quoted here in 2005:

I'm just trying to understand the mechanism.  The albedo of the earth
reflects multispectrum light back into the atmosphere.  How many
photons are re-reflected by an additional 80 ppm of CO2?

I'm working on a calculation; but, the atmospheric density is a
gradient and I hate calculus.

More later, maybe.  :-)

Terry

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I wrote:

>This reminds me of the idiotic comment by Michael Crichton that 
>Terry Blanton quoted here in 2005:

By the way, I wasn't suggesting that we should hold Terry responsible 
for Crichton's comments. Not unless Terry is a ghostwriter and 
Crighton pays him royalties . . .

- Jed

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no, its increased as a fraction by that much.

its increased by 22.5 percent. (measurement of increase is against
itself, as a fraction, not the whole)

On 4/24/07, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote:
> Nitrogen 78.084%
> Oxygen 20.946%
> Argon 0.934%
> Carbon dioxide 0.038%
> Water vapor 1%
> Other 0.002%
>
> CO2 content has increased 0.008% in my lifetime.
>
> I must be missing something.
>
> Terry
>
>


-- 
That which yields isn't always weak.

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On 4/24/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I wrote:
>
> >This reminds me of the idiotic comment by Michael Crichton that
> >Terry Blanton quoted here in 2005:
>
> By the way, I wasn't suggesting that we should hold Terry responsible
> for Crichton's comments. Not unless Terry is a ghostwriter and
> Crighton pays him royalties . . .

Crichton has a PhD in medicine.  If you haven't read it, you should
read his autobiography "Travels".  Quite interesting.  He abandoned
his medical career because:

1)  He learned that he could not really "cure" people of their
afflictions because they all had a reason for why they were sick; and,

2)  He made a killing on "Andromeda Strain" and did not need the money.

In comparison, Venus:

Composition: ~96.5% Carbon dioxide
~3.5% Nitrogen
.015% Sulphur dioxide
.007% Argon
.002% Water vapor
.0017% Carbon monoxide
.0012% Helium
.0007% Neon
trace Carbonyl sulfide
trace Hydrogen chloride
trace Hydrogen fluoride

I don't think we will be melting lead any time soon on Earth.  ;-)

Terry

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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
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--- Terry  wrote:

 > I'm just trying to understand the mechanism.  The
albedo of the earth reflects multispectrum light back
into the atmosphere.  How many photons are
re-reflected by an additional 80 ppm of CO2?

Is that the main mechanism? For some reason I thought
that CO2 acted by absorbing IR from a warm earth,
which otherwise would be radiated into space. I guess
both mechanisms are in play.

Anyway, even if he AlGore critics are correct that
some, or much, or even most, of the present global
heating situation is caused by increased solar
activity instead of human - that should not imply that
we should not try to do everything possible to
ameliorate and reverse the situation, just because it
is arguably partly "natural".  

Can we all agree on that?

If a large "natural" asteroid is headed our way,
shouldn't we try to intercept and nuke it, even if
arguably it is "nature's way" of allowing new kinds of
dominant species to emerge ....? 

Jones

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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 17:53:39 -0400
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From: "Dr. Mitchell Swartz" <mica@theworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases
In-Reply-To: <f7eeb3430704241423p24bb2af3vee67628fc71dc54@mail.gmail.com
 >
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At 05:23 PM 4/24/2007 -0400, you wrote:
>On 4/24/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>This reminds me of the idiotic comment by Michael Crichton that Terry
>>Blanton quoted here in 2005:
>
>I'm just trying to understand the mechanism.  The albedo of the earth
>reflects multispectrum light back into the atmosphere.  How many
>photons are re-reflected by an additional 80 ppm of CO2?
>
>I'm working on a calculation; but, the atmospheric density is a
>gradient and I hate calculus.
>
>More later, maybe.  :-)
>
>Terry


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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:00:23 -0400
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: "Dr. Mitchell Swartz" <mica@theworld.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases
Cc: "Dr. Mitchell Swartz" <mica@theworld.com>
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 >
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At 05:23 PM 4/24/2007 -0400, Terry wrote:
>On 4/24/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>This reminds me of the idiotic comment by Michael Crichton that Terry
>>Blanton quoted here in 2005:
>
>I'm just trying to understand the mechanism.  The albedo of the earth
>reflects multispectrum light back into the atmosphere.  How many
>photons are re-reflected by an additional 80 ppm of CO2?
>
>I'm working on a calculation; but, the atmospheric density is a
>gradient and I hate calculus.



   Perhaps this will help deconvolving this issue;
with the first useful for your impending integral calculus calculations.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

IR DATA:

<img src=http://melbourne.indymedia.org/uploads/picture1s.jpg><P>



TIME LINE GW DATA:

<img src=http://home.earthlink.net/~a_geezer/Climate/Image2.gif><P>

<img src=http://home.earthlink.net/~a_geezer/Climate/Image5.gif><P>

<img src=http://aycu15.webshots.com/image/4254/2003253592012895950_rs.jpg><P>

<img 
src=http://www.businessandmedia.org/specialreports/2006/fireandice/images/nty-timeline.gif><P>


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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:22:23 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases
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The best explanation of global warming is in the movie _The Arrival_.

;-)
Harry

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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:22:55 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases
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	 <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com>
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Thanks, Dr. Swartz.  Interesting periodicity to the data.

Terry

On 4/24/07, Dr. Mitchell Swartz <mica@theworld.com> wrote:
> At 05:23 PM 4/24/2007 -0400, Terry wrote:
> >On 4/24/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> >>This reminds me of the idiotic comment by Michael Crichton that Terry
> >>Blanton quoted here in 2005:
> >
> >I'm just trying to understand the mechanism.  The albedo of the earth
> >reflects multispectrum light back into the atmosphere.  How many
> >photons are re-reflected by an additional 80 ppm of CO2?
> >
> >I'm working on a calculation; but, the atmospheric density is a
> >gradient and I hate calculus.
>
>
>
>   Perhaps this will help deconvolving this issue;
> with the first useful for your impending integral calculus calculations.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> IR DATA:
>
> <img src=http://melbourne.indymedia.org/uploads/picture1s.jpg><P>
>
>
>
> TIME LINE GW DATA:
>
> <img src=http://home.earthlink.net/~a_geezer/Climate/Image2.gif><P>
>
> <img src=http://home.earthlink.net/~a_geezer/Climate/Image5.gif><P>
>
> <img src=http://aycu15.webshots.com/image/4254/2003253592012895950_rs.jpg><P>
>
> <img
> src=http://www.businessandmedia.org/specialreports/2006/fireandice/images/nty-timeline.gif><P>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Apr 24 15:44:26 2007
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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:44:11 -0400
From: "john herman" <hermajohn@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Vo]:Tunnel Challenge ..headlights
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------=_Part_127958_29361564.1177454651903
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     Dear Vo.,

       If you get up in the morning and have made a great discovery.....eg,

    B. Josephson ..... and it works!!!

      THEN later you find you have different beliefs..... does this mean th=
e
earlier work is "no good"???

         The challenge to vo is to illustrate good work..... from all
areas.....
NOT..."this is bad".... but THIS IS GOOD...

 such as the  VORTO ELECTRO GO MO BILE.


from
http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2007/straight_2007-04-05.cfm

"Sometimes a Nobel is given to a guy who=B9s a flake but probably deserves =
it
anyhow. One case in point is Cambridge University professor Brian Josephson=
,
who was awarded a Nobel Prize in physics in 1973 for predicting how
electrons could tunnel through an insulating barrier. Later in life,
Josephson became a believer in the paranormal and a fan of such chimeras as
cold fusion and homeopathy; he directed the Mind-Matter Unification Project=
,
which among other things tried to use physics to explain telepathy."

------=_Part_127958_29361564.1177454651903
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<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Dear Vo.,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If you get up in the morning and =
have made a great discovery.....eg,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; B. Josephson ..... and it works!!!</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; THEN later you find you have different =
beliefs..... does this mean the earlier work is &quot;no good&quot;???</div=
>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The challenge to vo i=
s to illustrate good work..... from all areas.....</div>
<div>NOT...&quot;this is bad&quot;.... but THIS IS GOOD...</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;such as the&nbsp; VORTO ELECTRO GO MO BILE.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>from<br><a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)=
" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2007/straight=
_2007-04-05.cfm">http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2007/straight_2007-04-05=
.cfm
</a><br><br>&quot;Sometimes a Nobel is given to a guy who=B9s a flake but p=
robably deserves it<br>anyhow. One case in point is Cambridge University pr=
ofessor Brian Josephson,<br>who was awarded a Nobel Prize in physics in 197=
3 for predicting how
<br>electrons could tunnel through an insulating barrier. Later in life,<br=
>Josephson became a believer in the paranormal and a fan of such chimeras a=
s<br>cold fusion and homeopathy; he directed the Mind-Matter Unification Pr=
oject,
<br>which among other things tried to use physics to explain telepathy.&quo=
t;<br><br>&nbsp;</div>

------=_Part_127958_29361564.1177454651903--

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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:37:19 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases
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Huh?  Heat are photons, too, right.  I mean we aren't bumping
molecules together to get heat off the earth, are we?

I recently had a discussion on whether chloroflorocarbons are
greenhouse gases.  They actually are.  If you deplete the ozone layer,
you allow more UV in.  Since the earth absorbs some of those photons
and reradiates them as IR, then it is so.

We only have two sources of heat, Sol and our radioactive core.  I
have not included the core in my calculations.

I think it's hopeless for me to try this endeavor.  <sigh>

Terry

On 4/24/07, Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:
> --- Terry  wrote:
>
>  > I'm just trying to understand the mechanism.  The
> albedo of the earth reflects multispectrum light back
> into the atmosphere.  How many photons are
> re-reflected by an additional 80 ppm of CO2?
>
> Is that the main mechanism? For some reason I thought
> that CO2 acted by absorbing IR from a warm earth,
> which otherwise would be radiated into space. I guess
> both mechanisms are in play.
>
> Anyway, even if he AlGore critics are correct that
> some, or much, or even most, of the present global
> heating situation is caused by increased solar
> activity instead of human - that should not imply that
> we should not try to do everything possible to
> ameliorate and reverse the situation, just because it
> is arguably partly "natural".
>
> Can we all agree on that?
>
> If a large "natural" asteroid is headed our way,
> shouldn't we try to intercept and nuke it, even if
> arguably it is "nature's way" of allowing new kinds of
> dominant species to emerge ....?
>
> Jones
>
>

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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 15:49:05 -0700
From: Paul Lowrance <energymover@gmail.com>
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Terry Blanton wrote:
> On 4/24/07, Paul Lowrance <energymover@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Then I calculate you to be ~2.2 years old, LOL.
> 
> Maybe mentally.  :-)
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide
> 
> Half way down.  In 1960 CO2 was 310 ppm.  Now it's 380 ppm.  This
> causes drastic changes in climate?!?


Wow Terry!  1960 was well in the industrial age. Just look at the graph brother -->

http://www.indorphyn.com/images/al_gore-co2-temp-slide.jpg

The scientists aren't trying to pull your leg. :-)


Regards,
Paul Lowrance

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 08:58:31 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Dr. Mitchell Swartz's message of Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:00:23 =
-0400:
Hi,
[snip]
><img src=3Dhttp://home.earthlink.net/~a_geezer/Climate/Image5.gif><P>

Note that each of the highs presaged an ice age (if I'm not mistaken), =
and we
appear to be on the most recent high.

>
><img =
src=3Dhttp://aycu15.webshots.com/image/4254/2003253592012895950_rs.jpg><P=
>

Note that if the current CO2 concentration were to be plotted on this =
graph, if
we be off the top of the graph.

[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

The shrub is a plant.

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Terry Blanton wrote:
> On 4/24/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> I wrote:
>>
>> >This reminds me of the idiotic comment by Michael Crichton that
>> >Terry Blanton quoted here in 2005:
>>
>> By the way, I wasn't suggesting that we should hold Terry responsible
>> for Crichton's comments. Not unless Terry is a ghostwriter and
>> Crighton pays him royalties . . .
> 
> Crichton has a PhD in medicine.  If you haven't read it, you should
> read his autobiography "Travels".  Quite interesting.  He abandoned
> his medical career because:
> 
> 1)  He learned that he could not really "cure" people of their
> afflictions because they all had a reason for why they were sick; and,
> 
> 2)  He made a killing on "Andromeda Strain" and did not need the money.
> 
> In comparison, Venus:
> 
> Composition: ~96.5% Carbon dioxide
> ~3.5% Nitrogen
> .015% Sulphur dioxide
> .007% Argon
> .002% Water vapor
> .0017% Carbon monoxide
> .0012% Helium
> .0007% Neon
> trace Carbonyl sulfide
> trace Hydrogen chloride
> trace Hydrogen fluoride
> 
> I don't think we will be melting lead any time soon on Earth.  ;-)



Earth is not Venus. Climatological Earth records show that whenever the level of 
CO2 rose above 300ppm an ice age inevitably follows.


Regards,
Paul Lowrance

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I think it's important we pay attention to what the climate scientists are 
saying, which is how much CO2 has suddenly increased from the pre-industrial 
level to now. CO2 was 278 ppm just prior to the industrial revolution and it was 
379 ppm in 2005. That's a 36% increase. Furthermore, CO2 is increasing at an 
exponential rate.

Scientists know every ice age occurred when the CO2 levels went over 300 ppm. 
Notice the CO2 cycles in the following chart. Notice the CO2 levels suddenly 
explode at the dawn of the industrial age -->

http://www.indorphyn.com/images/al_gore-co2-temp-slide.jpg

What's just as interesting are the recent computer simulations from NASA's 
supercomputers that appear to agree.


Regards,
Paul Lowrance




leaking pen wrote:
> no, its increased as a fraction by that much.
> 
> its increased by 22.5 percent. (measurement of increase is against
> itself, as a fraction, not the whole)
> 
> On 4/24/07, Terry Blanton <hohlraum@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Nitrogen 78.084%
>> Oxygen 20.946%
>> Argon 0.934%
>> Carbon dioxide 0.038%
>> Water vapor 1%
>> Other 0.002%
>>
>> CO2 content has increased 0.008% in my lifetime.
>>
>> I must be missing something.
>>
>> Terry
>>

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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> In reply to  Dr. Mitchell Swartz's message of Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:00:23 -0400:
> Hi,
> [snip]
>> <img src=http://home.earthlink.net/~a_geezer/Climate/Image5.gif><P>
> 
> Note that each of the highs presaged an ice age (if I'm not mistaken), and we
> appear to be on the most recent high.


We just had a ice age 10,000 years ago, but it seems humanity will cause another 
another, soon.  10,000 years ago is recent in terms of ice age cycles.



>> <img src=http://aycu15.webshots.com/image/4254/2003253592012895950_rs.jpg><P>
> 
> Note that if the current CO2 concentration were to be plotted on this graph, if
> we be off the top of the graph.


CO2 charts spanning hundreds of thousands of years show the CO2 levels go in 
cycles. Then all of a sudden CO2 levels explode ~5 times beyond any known CO2 
levels between now and the dawn of the industrial age. That and a lot more are 
the reasons over 99% of such scientists (over 2000) now believe humanity is the 
cause of Global Warming.


Regards,
Paul Lowrance

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From: "leaking pen" <itsatrap@gmail.com>
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now, the mechanism is likely a global warming, causing ice cap melting
and a change in albedo, causeing cooling, leading to ice age, thats
the generally accepted mechanism.  Its a form of control and cycle.
Will the co2 going beyond what it gets too normally in that cycle
change things?  and how much?

On 4/24/07, Paul Lowrance <energymover@gmail.com> wrote:
> Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> > In reply to  Dr. Mitchell Swartz's message of Tue, 24 Apr 2007 18:00:23 -0400:
> > Hi,
> > [snip]
> >> <img src=http://home.earthlink.net/~a_geezer/Climate/Image5.gif><P>
> >
> > Note that each of the highs presaged an ice age (if I'm not mistaken), and we
> > appear to be on the most recent high.
>
>
> We just had a ice age 10,000 years ago, but it seems humanity will cause another
> another, soon.  10,000 years ago is recent in terms of ice age cycles.
>
>
>
> >> <img src=http://aycu15.webshots.com/image/4254/2003253592012895950_rs.jpg><P>
> >
> > Note that if the current CO2 concentration were to be plotted on this graph, if
> > we be off the top of the graph.
>
>
> CO2 charts spanning hundreds of thousands of years show the CO2 levels go in
> cycles. Then all of a sudden CO2 levels explode ~5 times beyond any known CO2
> levels between now and the dawn of the industrial age. That and a lot more are
> the reasons over 99% of such scientists (over 2000) now believe humanity is the
> cause of Global Warming.
>
>
> Regards,
> Paul Lowrance
>
>


-- 
That which yields isn't always weak.

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From: "Michel Jullian" <mj@exbang.com>
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Subject: [Vo]:Sinking atmospheric CO2 in all senses of the term  (was Re:Simply sublime? Orthocarbonic acid)
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----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Jones Beene" jonesb9@pacbell.net
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:06 PM

> Wiki mentions Deep Ocean storage of CO2.=20
...
> CO2 can be frozen easily in cold climates to dry
> ice - which in half again denser than water, and will
> then be able to sink, to any level, in the ocean (if
> insulated)

You could call this "marine snow" Jones  ;-)

It seems to me that boosting the "real" marine snow production to return =
the excess atmospheric carbon to its original deep ocean layers of =
organic sediments would be an even better idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_snow
"In the deep ocean, marine snow is a continuous shower of mostly organic =
detritus falling from the upper layers of the water column. Its origin =
lies in activities within the productive photic zone."

Which brings us back to iron fertilization, which would provoke =
microalgae blooms, which would increase marine animal life if we can =
manage an ingenious animal/vegetal synergy, which would increase marine =
snow.

Whale s***?

Michel

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Subject: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE
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To all, and some in particular, and some not in particular....

Please READ people's posts before posting replies. That means the whole 
damned thing, whether or not you agree with it. If you do not take the time 
to read the entire thing, either because you are too lazy to do so, or 
because the content disgusts you, then you do not have the necessary courage 
or fortitude to make a decent reply. Period. Exclamation point. At sign. 
Divide by. (you get the point I suppose)

Case in point: Jeff Fink was attacked for being supposedly on the side of 
the oil companies. He specifically stated in more than one post that he is 
all for getting OFF of the addiction to oil. Stop attacking people when you 
do not read the entire post.

Again, WHY is it that the side which questions Global Warming as caused by 
technology the polite and thoughful side, yet the majority (not all, some 
are OK) of the pro-industrial caused Global Warming side is really beginning 
to paint themselves as hateful scumbags who do not give a damn what happens 
to the working class people, as long as "Owl" Gore is A-OK, and his carbon 
credits too. Inevitably, it seems, any attempt to discuss what is going on 
scientifically becomes a gaggle of ultra-liberals swooping down to brand 
everything as partisan or political. Next, the neo-cons emerge from their 
lairs and counterattack with remarks that make the first group of idiots 
look right. No science then gets discussed. The working class are still left 
driving the evil automoblile, and no one says, hey, lets make some real 
world, nuts and bolts engineering to actually DO something about this, and 
help the "little guy" out in the process.

Also, why are we bringing religion and religious prophecy into this? This is 
supposed to be about science, not theology.

A couple personal points:

To Paul Lowrance: the above is not directed at you. Though I disagree with 
you on the issue of Global Warming, your posts have been quite polite and 
civililzed, and I thank you for that. And, regardless of whether or not we 
agree or disagree on GW, I am right here with you in wanting to see the end 
of the oil-burning age. Maybe a thread should be begun to discuss real world 
solar/etc., how we can make it cheap, ideas, experiments on such, etc.?

To Dr. Mitchell Swartz: Your post was brief, but very good, in my opinion. I 
for one am glad you are still on the list.

To all of us: Now lets go do some experiments, and find some answers. We 
here on Vortex are a myriad collection of peoples from across the globe, 
with many different backgrounds and with our own unique skills. Let us work 
together, and try to really find the answers. Or to put it more humorously, 
with due apologies to the great folks who made "Animal House":

OTTER: In this case, I think we have to go all out. I think this situation 
absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's 
part!
BLUTARSKY: We're just the guys to do it!
BOONE: Lets do it.
BLUTARSKY: LETS DO IT!!! GO GO GO GO!!!!
<Mayhem and madness ensues>

--Kyle, hopefully not on "double secret probation"


From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Apr 24 21:00:54 2007
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Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2007 21:00:43 -0700
From: "leaking pen" <itsatrap@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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I couldnt be bothered to read youre whole post Kyle, becuase, frankly,
the whole thing disgusts me.

:D
just kidding.

and as a working class type person, I A. could care less about al gore
and his carbon credits, and B. could care less about the working class
as a whole having job and unemployment issues, based on what may be
coming with global warming, you know? It's like, sorry sir, we aren't
going to treat your cancer, it might make your cough worse.

On 4/24/07, Kyle R. Mcallister <weir@fdscience.org> wrote:
> To all, and some in particular, and some not in particular....
>
> Please READ people's posts before posting replies. That means the whole
> damned thing, whether or not you agree with it. If you do not take the time
> to read the entire thing, either because you are too lazy to do so, or
> because the content disgusts you, then you do not have the necessary courage
> or fortitude to make a decent reply. Period. Exclamation point. At sign.
> Divide by. (you get the point I suppose)
>
> Case in point: Jeff Fink was attacked for being supposedly on the side of
> the oil companies. He specifically stated in more than one post that he is
> all for getting OFF of the addiction to oil. Stop attacking people when you
> do not read the entire post.
>
> Again, WHY is it that the side which questions Global Warming as caused by
> technology the polite and thoughful side, yet the majority (not all, some
> are OK) of the pro-industrial caused Global Warming side is really beginning
> to paint themselves as hateful scumbags who do not give a damn what happens
> to the working class people, as long as "Owl" Gore is A-OK, and his carbon
> credits too. Inevitably, it seems, any attempt to discuss what is going on
> scientifically becomes a gaggle of ultra-liberals swooping down to brand
> everything as partisan or political. Next, the neo-cons emerge from their
> lairs and counterattack with remarks that make the first group of idiots
> look right. No science then gets discussed. The working class are still left
> driving the evil automoblile, and no one says, hey, lets make some real
> world, nuts and bolts engineering to actually DO something about this, and
> help the "little guy" out in the process.
>
> Also, why are we bringing religion and religious prophecy into this? This is
> supposed to be about science, not theology.
>
> A couple personal points:
>
> To Paul Lowrance: the above is not directed at you. Though I disagree with
> you on the issue of Global Warming, your posts have been quite polite and
> civililzed, and I thank you for that. And, regardless of whether or not we
> agree or disagree on GW, I am right here with you in wanting to see the end
> of the oil-burning age. Maybe a thread should be begun to discuss real world
> solar/etc., how we can make it cheap, ideas, experiments on such, etc.?
>
> To Dr. Mitchell Swartz: Your post was brief, but very good, in my opinion. I
> for one am glad you are still on the list.
>
> To all of us: Now lets go do some experiments, and find some answers. We
> here on Vortex are a myriad collection of peoples from across the globe,
> with many different backgrounds and with our own unique skills. Let us work
> together, and try to really find the answers. Or to put it more humorously,
> with due apologies to the great folks who made "Animal House":
>
> OTTER: In this case, I think we have to go all out. I think this situation
> absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's
> part!
> BLUTARSKY: We're just the guys to do it!
> BOONE: Lets do it.
> BLUTARSKY: LETS DO IT!!! GO GO GO GO!!!!
> <Mayhem and madness ensues>
>
> --Kyle, hopefully not on "double secret probation"
>
>
>


-- 
That which yields isn't always weak.

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Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 01:47:49 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE
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Consider the free trade agreements of the last few decades.
In their absence would CO2 emissions be greater or lower
than they are now?

If lower, then the issue of global warming may favour the working
class in the US. For example if a manufacturing company is able to use
electricity not generated from coal or oil it could be given special
tax breaks to keep operating in the US.

Is this: 
a) a slightly silly idea
b) a silly idea 
or 
c) an extremely silly idea?

Harry

On 24/4/2007 11:00 PM, leaking pen wrote:

> I couldnt be bothered to read youre whole post Kyle, becuase, frankly,
> the whole thing disgusts me.
> 
> :D
> just kidding.
> 
> and as a working class type person, I A. could care less about al gore
> and his carbon credits, and B. could care less about the working class
> as a whole having job and unemployment issues, based on what may be
> coming with global warming, you know? It's like, sorry sir, we aren't
> going to treat your cancer, it might make your cough worse.
> 
> On 4/24/07, Kyle R. Mcallister <weir@fdscience.org> wrote:
>> To all, and some in particular, and some not in particular....
>> 
>> Please READ people's posts before posting replies. That means the whole
>> damned thing, whether or not you agree with it. If you do not take the time
>> to read the entire thing, either because you are too lazy to do so, or
>> because the content disgusts you, then you do not have the necessary courage
>> or fortitude to make a decent reply. Period. Exclamation point. At sign.
>> Divide by. (you get the point I suppose)
>> 
>> Case in point: Jeff Fink was attacked for being supposedly on the side of
>> the oil companies. He specifically stated in more than one post that he is
>> all for getting OFF of the addiction to oil. Stop attacking people when you
>> do not read the entire post.
>> 
>> Again, WHY is it that the side which questions Global Warming as caused by
>> technology the polite and thoughful side, yet the majority (not all, some
>> are OK) of the pro-industrial caused Global Warming side is really beginning
>> to paint themselves as hateful scumbags who do not give a damn what happens
>> to the working class people, as long as "Owl" Gore is A-OK, and his carbon
>> credits too. Inevitably, it seems, any attempt to discuss what is going on
>> scientifically becomes a gaggle of ultra-liberals swooping down to brand
>> everything as partisan or political. Next, the neo-cons emerge from their
>> lairs and counterattack with remarks that make the first group of idiots
>> look right. No science then gets discussed. The working class are still left
>> driving the evil automoblile, and no one says, hey, lets make some real
>> world, nuts and bolts engineering to actually DO something about this, and
>> help the "little guy" out in the process.
>> 
>> Also, why are we bringing religion and religious prophecy into this? This is
>> supposed to be about science, not theology.
>> 
>> A couple personal points:
>> 
>> To Paul Lowrance: the above is not directed at you. Though I disagree with
>> you on the issue of Global Warming, your posts have been quite polite and
>> civililzed, and I thank you for that. And, regardless of whether or not we
>> agree or disagree on GW, I am right here with you in wanting to see the end
>> of the oil-burning age. Maybe a thread should be begun to discuss real world
>> solar/etc., how we can make it cheap, ideas, experiments on such, etc.?
>> 
>> To Dr. Mitchell Swartz: Your post was brief, but very good, in my opinion. I
>> for one am glad you are still on the list.
>> 
>> To all of us: Now lets go do some experiments, and find some answers. We
>> here on Vortex are a myriad collection of peoples from across the globe,
>> with many different backgrounds and with our own unique skills. Let us work
>> together, and try to really find the answers. Or to put it more humorously,
>> with due apologies to the great folks who made "Animal House":
>> 
>> OTTER: In this case, I think we have to go all out. I think this situation
>> absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's
>> part!
>> BLUTARSKY: We're just the guys to do it!
>> BOONE: Lets do it.
>> BLUTARSKY: LETS DO IT!!! GO GO GO GO!!!!
>> <Mayhem and madness ensues>
>> 
>> --Kyle, hopefully not on "double secret probation"
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 

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Subject: [Vo]:Possibly Earthlike planet only 20 l.y. away!
Status: O
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http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/25/science/space/25planet.html?_r=3D1&ref=3D=
science&oref=3Dslogin

New Planet Could Be Earthlike, Scientists Say=20

By DENNIS OVERBYE
Published: April 25, 2007
The most enticing property yet found outside our solar system is about =
20 light-years away in the constellation Libra, a team of European =
astronomers said yesterday.=20
The astronomers have discovered a planet five times as massive as the =
Earth orbiting a dim red star known as Gliese 581.
It is the smallest of the 200 or so planets that are known to exist =
outside of our solar system, the extrasolar or exo-planets. It orbits =
its home star within the so-called habitable zone where surface water, =
the staff of life, could exist if other conditions are right, said =
Stephane Udry of the Geneva Observatory.
"We are at the right place for that," said Dr. Udry, the lead author of =
a paper describing the discovery that has been submitted to the journal =
Astronomy & Astrophysics.
But he and other astronomers cautioned that it was far too soon to =
conclude that liquid water was there without more observations. Sara =
Seager, a planet expert at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, =
said, "For example, if the planet had an atmosphere more massive than =
Venus's, then the surface would likely be too hot for liquid water."
Nevertheless, the discovery in the Gliese 581 system, where a =
Neptune-size planet was discovered two years ago and another planet of =
eight Earth masses is now suspected, catapults that system to the top of =
the list for future generations of space missions.
"On the treasure map of the universe, one would be tempted to mark this =
planet with an X," said Xavier Delfosse, a member of the team from =
Grenoble University in France, according to a news release from the =
European Southern Observatory, a multinational collaboration based in =
Garching, Germany.=20
Dimitar Sasselov of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, who =
studies the structure and formation of planets, said: "It's 20 =
light-years. We can go there."
The new planet was discovered by the wobble it causes in its home star's =
motion as it orbits, using the method by which most of the known =
exo-planets have been discovered. Dr. Udry's team used an advanced =
spectrograph on a 141-inch-diameter telescope at the European =
observatory in La Silla, Chile.
The planet, Gliese 581c, circles the star every 13 days at a distance of =
about seven million miles. According to models of planet formation =
developed by Dr. Sasselov and his colleagues, such a planet should be =
about half again as large as the Earth and composed of rock and water, =
what the astronomers now call a "super Earth."
The most exciting part of the find, Dr. Sasselov said, is that it =
"basically tells you these kinds of planets are very common." Because =
they could stay geologically active for billions of years, he said he =
suspected that such planets could be even more congenial for life than =
Earth. Although the new planet is much closer to its star than Earth is =
to the Sun, the red dwarf Gliese 581 is only about a hundredth as =
luminous as the Sun. So seven million miles is a comfortable huddling =
distance.
How hot the planet gets, Dr. Udry said, depends on how much light the =
planet reflects, its albedo. Using the Earth and Venus as two extreme =
examples, he estimated that temperatures on the surface of the planet =
should be in the range of 0 degrees to 40 degrees centigrade.
"It's just right in the good range," Dr. Udry said. "Of course, we don't =
know anything about its albedo."
One problem is that the wobble technique only gives masses of planets. =
To measure their actual size and thus find their densities, astronomers =
have to catch the planets in the act of passing in front of or behind =
their stars. Such transits can also reveal if the planets have =
atmospheres and what they are made of.=20
Dr. Udry said he and Dr. Sasselov would be observing the Gliese system =
with a Canadian space telescope named MOST to see if there are any dips =
in starlight caused by the new planet. Failing that, they said, the best =
chance for more information about the system lies with the Terrestrial =
Planet Finder, a NASA mission, and the Darwin missions of the European =
Space Agency, which are designed to study Earthlike planets, but have =
been delayed by political, technical and financial difficulties.
"We are starting to count the first targets," Dr. Udry said.


--
Michel

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Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 03:35:12 -0400
From: "john herman" <hermajohn@gmail.com>
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Dear Vo.,

   I must speak up at my father, a language teacher born in 1899 would have
prompted me:

     [1]  there is are no ""quote and end quote""  one may open and close a
quote
          but not """""end"""" a quote...

  [2]  She or he SAID... not SAYS.....

        OK?

      [3]  From JHS:

       May you  "all you all" PLEASE BBGB  PLEASE try.... even just TRY
to think about science... as opposed to she said she said he said they
said... sais says said.....???  PLESE??

      [4]  Can anyone  [oh come just one on one of you all you all on you
lurkers]

   EVEN Try some kind of thinking real world science:


   (A)  Thanks to John Steck

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<div>Dear Vo.,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; I must speak up at my father, a language teacher born in 1899 would have prompted me:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [1]&nbsp; there is are no &quot;&quot;quote and end quote&quot;&quot;&nbsp; one may open and close a quote</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; but not &quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;end&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot; a quote...</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp; [2]&nbsp; She or he SAID... not SAYS.....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; OK?</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [3]&nbsp; From JHS:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; May you&nbsp; &quot;all you all&quot; PLEASE BBGB&nbsp; PLEASE try.... even just TRY</div>
<div>to think about science... as opposed to she said she said he said they said... sais says said.....???&nbsp; PLESE??</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [4]&nbsp; Can anyone&nbsp; [oh come just one on one of you all you all on you lurkers]</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; EVEN Try some kind of thinking real world science:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp; (A)&nbsp; Thanks to John Steck</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>

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Dear Vo.,

       A  cut and cut... and some paste, comment:

        GENERAL
         In general,as there may be a "comment" it seems  as though the
"armchair" science  community find a difficulty in and of a responce,
rejoinder...

      SO:  As a favor.... I ask PLEASE to RSVP this little note ....
           And rejoin with "not an arm chair guesikation"  but some real
stuff.....

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\  Here is are a critique.... and question '''grouping"
////////////////////


On 4/4/07, vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com <vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com
> wrote:
>
> vortex-digest Digest                            Volume 2007 : Issue 202
>


Q:
However on a more practical note

".....eve that Free Energy is possible with solid state electrical equipment
where the energy is either created or tapped from a vast unseen reservoir.
....""

      How about a well  known and well understood "vast" body of energy" ???


On 4/3/07, Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell@mindspring.com > wrote:

>  Naturally, I have mixed feelings about nuclear power. I think everyone on
> > Vortex does -- this is a technically knowledgable group
>
>

     ".......knowledgable is a word that should have been clubbed to death
years ago
when it started crawling about like the  late Lon Cheney..."

 I may be could be
could be wrong   ..........




>  ! And if only they *had* honored the truth,
>
>
    ::::::::::::::  Who is are the ""they""  ........


        YOU... the arm chair commenters..... ARE the THEY

of re-occuring time after time, and being covered up.
stupid thing to do.

- Jed

Thomas wrote..

> He did mention a theory of everything. I searched it, as  far as I can
> tell, it applies to particle physics. He said that a  researcher at the U
> of M is working on it.


---------

       UH..... the """Theory of everything"" means:

       This is  the guess ..of everything....

 SO.....

       BBGB .................  Does ANYONE wish to share the Anything of
Anything
               ????   M   HMMMMMMM ???



Jed wrote..

>Engineers are supposed to tell the truth!


       JED------>>>      I wish you would reveal any work you
               YOU as a person have done....  Please ....


=============================

.. ask any college kid.

=====================

  I wish any of you WOULD ask a real college kid... about the nature of the
text on Vo.
    As little does a royal lady dream
    That Rumpelstiltskin is my name!"
>Alternatively, you know what they say about flying...  It's really
>not too dangerous when you're in the air. The only problems are when
>you are near the ground....

I do not worry about the danger. I just do not like being crammed
into a small, smelly cabin with bad food, air pressure changes, and
all these invasive procedures against terrorism. The latest invasive
procedure is to look at you naked with an x-ray machine. See:

http://www.slate.com/id/2160977/
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/02/24/us/24scan.jpg

I like to get up, stroll around, buy a cuppa java, look out the
window and see something . . . The fast trains in France and Japan
are great. If I could go all the way to Japan (6870) by fast train in
19 hours, I would never take a 14-hour flight. It is a shame they
cannot make trains run on water.

What I would really like to experience is a flight on a Zeppelin.

- Jed

Rhong Dhong wrote:

>It's no longer possible to have something like that in the US. One
>suicide bomber will be all it takes to justify turning the screws some
more.
>
>The commute will then include the need for each passenger to go
>through a search . . .

Not a problem. It would take a huge bomb to destroy a fast train, or
make it derail. Much bigger than it takes to destroy an airplane. Of
course a small bomb would kill some people, but it would be no worse
than an attack in a shopping mall. We are not going to set up
searches at every shopping mall or other crowded place. Even the
Israelis do not do that, and they have much more to worry about than
Americans.

Note that Amtrak trains already limit the number of bags, and they do
have a rudimentary search. The French and Japanese trains do not.

If anything, concerns about terrorism will increase the appeal of trains.

- Jed

Jed sez:

...

>
> I like to get up, stroll around, buy a cuppa java, look
> out the window and see something . . . The fast trains
> in France and Japan are great. If I could go all the way
> to Japan (6870) by fast train in 19 hours, I would never
> take a 14-hour flight. It is a shame they cannot make
> trains run on water.
>
> What I would really like to experience is a flight
> on a Zeppelin.
>
> - Jed

So would I.

Not all that long ago I saw a wonderful article (I think it was published in
either Popular Science or Popular Mechanics) on the conceptual design of a
heavier than air "zeppelin" using 21st century state of the art technology.
I think it was powered by a combination of solar cells and rechargeable
batteries powering a series of electric props positioned along the sides.
(Come to think of it, with NanoSolar's "printed" flexible solar film
technology just around the corner, I think it's an even better bet.) It
looked like a very FAT blimp filled with helium. The beauty of the concept
was that when you cut the power it would simply float back to the ground, or
body of water for that matter. Only when the electric props were actively
engaged would there be enough air lift to get it off the ground - and on to
infinity!

The conceptual images indicated to me that there would be sufficient
passenger space (particularly on the observational deck) to make one feel as
if they were strolling about on a cruse ship. What a view! Think "The Fifth
Element" and you get the picture. No warp drives, however, at least not in
the current model. I think it cruses at around 100 - 150 MPH.

I suspect the only thing holding them back are the old unjustified
Hindenburg fears. The only concern I would personally harbor would be how it
would negotiate its substantial girth through nasty cold fronts and other
bad weather.

Regardless, I'd love to see them frolicking above.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com <http://www.orionworks.com/>


Yesterday the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that CO2 is a form of
pollution. In the long term, this may benefit cold fusion, for the
reasons explained by Felix Kramer of the CalCars plug-in hybrid group:

"The Supreme Court has ruled that greenhouse gases are polluting
emissions subject to regulation by the US Environmental Protection
Agency. As a result, new cars in the relatively near future are going
to have to emit much lower CO2 than they do now. This adds to the
pressures on the auto industry to end business as usual thinking,
and, we hope, start building "good enough" PHEVs. It adds to the
momentum to fuel cars from renewable low-carbon sources.

This ruling sets the stage for the EPA to approve the waiver
necessary for California's first Global Warming Bill (AB1493, 2002)
to go into effect. That bill requires automakers to begin reducing
GHGs from cars beginning in 2009, with
reductions reaching 30% in 2016 . . ."

This may turn out to be one of the most important events in the
history of environmentalism.

Also in California, Gov. Schwarzenegger has turned out to be
remarkably friendly toward environmentalism, and also an effective
governor. This is a pleasant surprise to me.

- Jed

I wrote:

>Not a problem. It would take a huge bomb to destroy a fast train, or
>make it derail. Much bigger than it takes to destroy an airplane.

One of the reasons electric trains are safer is because they do not
explode as easily as airplanes do. They do not carry volatile fuel.
Most aircraft accident victims die from smoke inhalation or fire,
after crash landings.

Even if the train is derailed, because a modern train car has a very
strong structure and the passengers are likely to survive.

The high-speed train tracks in France are at ground level. I think
the Japanese Shinkansen elevated train tracks are better. In the U.S.
there is a significant risk of striking deer and other wildlife at
ground level. Not just deer; last year I was driving in a hilly part
of eastern Pennsylvania when a large black bear bounded across the
road in front of me. Both of us were shook up.

- Jed

On 4/3/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:

> The high-speed train tracks in France are at ground level. I think
> the Japanese Shinkansen elevated train tracks are better.

True, but vastly more expensive in the US.  In Nippon, concrete is
much cheaper than dirt.  :-)

Terry

They'll just change emit more CO instead :-) .

-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 12:25 PM
To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]: Supreme Court ruling may ultimately benefit cold fusion


Yesterday the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that CO2 is a form of
pollution. In the long term, this may benefit cold fusion, for the
reasons explained by Felix Kramer of the CalCars plug-in hybrid group:

"The Supreme Court has ruled that greenhouse gases are polluting
emissions subject to regulation by the US Environmental Protection
Agency. As a result, new cars in the relatively near future are going
to have to emit much lower CO2 than they do now...

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Rhong Dhong wrote:
>
>> It's no longer possible to have something like that in the US. One
>> suicide bomber will be all it takes to justify turning the screws
>> some more.
>>
>> The commute will then include the need for each passenger to go
>> through a search . . .
>
>
> Not a problem. It would take a huge bomb to destroy a fast train, or
> make it derail. Much bigger than it takes to destroy

On the contrary, all it would take is a small shaped charge on the
track. It would turn all that speeding mass into a very sympathetic target.


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html <http://usfamily.net/dialup.html> -
$8.25/mo! -- http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

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<div>Dear Vo.,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A&nbsp; cut and cut... and some paste, comment:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; GENERAL</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; In general,as there may be a &quot;comment&quot; it seems&nbsp; as though the&nbsp;</div>
<div>&quot;armchair&quot; science&nbsp; community find a difficulty in and of a responce, rejoinder...</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SO:&nbsp; As a favor.... I ask PLEASE to RSVP this little note ....</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; And rejoin with &quot;not an arm chair guesikation&quot;&nbsp; but some real stuff.....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><a>\\\\\\\\\\\\\\</a>&nbsp; Here is are a critique.... and question &#39;&#39;&#39;grouping&quot;&nbsp; ////////////////////</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/4/07, <b class="gmail_sendername"><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" target="_blank" href="mailto:vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com">vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com
</a></b> &lt;<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" target="_blank" href="mailto:vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com">vortex-digest-request@eskimo.com </a>&gt; wrote:</span> 
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div style="DIRECTION: ltr">vortex-digest Digest &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Volume 2007 : Issue 202</div></blockquote>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Q:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>However on a more practical note </div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&quot;.....eve that Free Energy is possible with solid state electrical equipment where the energy is either created or tapped from a vast unseen reservoir.&nbsp;&nbsp; ....&quot;&quot;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; How about a well&nbsp; known and well understood &quot;vast&quot; body of energy&quot; ???</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp; <br><span class="gmail_quote">On 4/3/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Jed Rothwell</b> &lt;<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" target="_blank" href="mailto:jedrothwell@mindspring.com">jedrothwell@mindspring.com 
</a>&gt; wrote:</span> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Naturally, I have mixed feelings about nuclear power. I think everyone on Vortex does -- this is a technically knowledgable group 
</blockquote></div></blockquote>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&quot;.......knowledgable is a word that should have been clubbed to death years ago</div>
<div>when it started crawling about like the&nbsp; late Lon Cheney...&quot;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;I may be could be </div>
<div>could be wrong&nbsp;&nbsp; ..........</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">! And if only they *had* honored the truth, </blockquote></div></blockquote>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ::::::::::::::&nbsp; Who is are the &quot;&quot;they&quot;&quot;&nbsp; ........</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; YOU... the arm chair commenters..... ARE the THEY</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>of re-occuring time after time, and being covered up. <br>stupid thing to do. <br><br>- Jed<br><br>Thomas wrote..<br><br>&gt; He did mention a theory of everything. I searched it, as &nbsp;far as I can<br>&gt; tell, it applies to particle physics. He said that a &nbsp;researcher at the U 
<br>&gt; of M is working on it.<br>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>---------</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; UH..... the &quot;&quot;&quot;Theory of everything&quot;&quot; means:</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This&nbsp;is&nbsp;&nbsp;the guess ..of everything....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;SO.....</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BBGB .................&nbsp; Does ANYONE wish to share the Anything of Anything </div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ????&nbsp;&nbsp; M&nbsp;&nbsp; HMMMMMMM ???</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Jed wrote..<br><br>&gt;Engineers are supposed to tell the truth!<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; JED------&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I wish you would reveal any work you</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; YOU as a person have done....&nbsp; Please ....<br>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>=============================</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>.. ask any college kid.<br>&nbsp;</div>
<div>=====================</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp; I wish any of you WOULD ask a real college kid... about the nature of the </div>
<div>text on Vo.</div>
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; As little does a royal lady dream<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; That Rumpelstiltskin is my name!&quot;<br>&gt;Alternatively, you know what they say about flying... &nbsp;It&#39;s really<br>&gt;not too dangerous when you&#39;re in the air. The only problems are when 
<br>&gt;you are near the ground....<br><br>I do not worry about the danger. I just do not like being crammed<br>into a small, smelly cabin with bad food, air pressure changes, and<br>all these invasive procedures against terrorism. The latest invasive 
<br>procedure is to look at you naked with an x-ray machine. See:<br><br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" target="_blank" href="http://www.slate.com/id/2160977/">http://www.slate.com/id/2160977/</a>
 <br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" target="_blank" href="http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/02/24/us/24scan.jpg">http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/02/24/us/24scan.jpg</a><br><br>I like to get up, stroll around, buy a cuppa java, look out the 
<br>window and see something . . . The fast trains in France and Japan<br>are great. If I could go all the way to Japan (6870) by fast train in<br>19 hours, I would never take a 14-hour flight. It is a shame they<br>cannot make trains run on water. 
<br><br>What I would really like to experience is a flight on a Zeppelin.<br><br>- Jed<br><br>Rhong Dhong wrote:<br><br>&gt;It&#39;s no longer possible to have something like that in the US. One<br>&gt;suicide bomber will be all it takes to justify turning the screws some more. 
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;The commute will then include the need for each passenger to go<br>&gt;through a search . . .<br><br>Not a problem. It would take a huge bomb to destroy a fast train, or<br>make it derail. Much bigger than it takes to destroy an airplane. Of 
<br>course a small bomb would kill some people, but it would be no worse<br>than an attack in a shopping mall. We are not going to set up<br>searches at every shopping mall or other crowded place. Even the<br>Israelis do not do that, and they have much more to worry about than Americans. 
<br><br>Note that Amtrak trains already limit the number of bags, and they do<br>have a rudimentary search. The French and Japanese trains do not.<br><br>If anything, concerns about terrorism will increase the appeal of trains. 
<br><br>- Jed<br><br>Jed sez:<br><br>...<br><br>&gt; <br>&gt; I like to get up, stroll around, buy a cuppa java, look<br>&gt; out the window and see something . . . The fast trains<br>&gt; in France and Japan are great. If I could go all the way 
<br>&gt; to Japan (6870) by fast train in 19 hours, I would never<br>&gt; take a 14-hour flight. It is a shame they cannot make<br>&gt; trains run on water.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; What I would really like to experience is a flight 
<br>&gt; on a Zeppelin.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; - Jed<br><br>So would I.<br><br>Not all that long ago I saw a wonderful article (I think it was published in either Popular Science or Popular Mechanics) on the conceptual design of a heavier than air &quot;zeppelin&quot; using 21st century state of the art technology. I think it was powered by a combination of solar cells and rechargeable batteries powering a series of electric props positioned along the sides. (Come to think of it, with NanoSolar&#39;s &quot;printed&quot; flexible solar film technology just around the corner, I think it&#39;s an even better bet.) It looked like a very FAT blimp filled with helium. The beauty of the concept was that when you cut the power it would simply float back to the ground, or body of water for that matter. Only when the electric props were actively engaged would there be enough air lift to get it off the ground - and on to infinity! 
<br><br>The conceptual images indicated to me that there would be sufficient passenger space (particularly on the observational deck) to make one feel as if they were strolling about on a cruse ship. What a view! Think &quot;The Fifth Element&quot; and you get the picture. No warp drives, however, at least not in the current model. I think it cruses at around 100 - 150 MPH. 
<br><br>I suspect the only thing holding them back are the old unjustified Hindenburg fears. The only concern I would personally harbor would be how it would negotiate its substantial girth through nasty cold fronts and other bad weather. 
<br><br>Regardless, I&#39;d love to see them frolicking above.<br><br>Regards,<br>Steven Vincent Johnson<br><a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" target="_blank" href="http://www.orionworks.com/">www.OrionWorks.com 
</a><br><br><br>Yesterday the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that CO2 is a form of<br>pollution. In the long term, this may benefit cold fusion, for the<br>reasons explained by Felix Kramer of the CalCars plug-in hybrid group:<br>
<br>&quot;The Supreme Court has ruled that greenhouse gases are polluting<br>emissions subject to regulation by the US Environmental Protection<br>Agency. As a result, new cars in the relatively near future are going<br>to have to emit much lower CO2 than they do now. This adds to the 
<br>pressures on the auto industry to end business as usual thinking,<br>and, we hope, start building &quot;good enough&quot; PHEVs. It adds to the<br>momentum to fuel cars from renewable low-carbon sources.<br><br>This ruling sets the stage for the EPA to approve the waiver 
<br>necessary for California&#39;s first Global Warming Bill (AB1493, 2002)<br>to go into effect. That bill requires automakers to begin reducing<br>GHGs from cars beginning in 2009, with<br>reductions reaching 30% in 2016 . . .&quot; 
<br><br>This may turn out to be one of the most important events in the<br>history of environmentalism.<br><br>Also in California, Gov. Schwarzenegger has turned out to be<br>remarkably friendly toward environmentalism, and also an effective 
<br>governor. This is a pleasant surprise to me.<br><br>- Jed<br><br>I wrote:<br><br>&gt;Not a problem. It would take a huge bomb to destroy a fast train, or<br>&gt;make it derail. Much bigger than it takes to destroy an airplane. 
<br><br>One of the reasons electric trains are safer is because they do not<br>explode as easily as airplanes do. They do not carry volatile fuel.<br>Most aircraft accident victims die from smoke inhalation or fire,<br>after crash landings. 
<br><br>Even if the train is derailed, because a modern train car has a very<br>strong structure and the passengers are likely to survive.<br><br>The high-speed train tracks in France are at ground level. I think<br>the Japanese Shinkansen elevated train tracks are better. In the 
U.S.<br>there is a significant risk of striking deer and other wildlife at<br>ground level. Not just deer; last year I was driving in a hilly part<br>of eastern Pennsylvania when a large black bear bounded across the<br>road in front of me. Both of us were shook up. 
<br><br>- Jed<br><br>On 4/3/07, Jed Rothwell &lt;<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" target="_blank" href="mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com">JedRothwell@mindspring.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>&gt; The high-speed train tracks in France are at ground level. I think 
<br>&gt; the Japanese Shinkansen elevated train tracks are better.<br><br>True, but vastly more expensive in the US. &nbsp;In Nippon, concrete is<br>much cheaper than dirt. &nbsp;:-)<br><br>Terry<br><br>They&#39;ll just change emit more CO instead :-) . 
<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:<a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" target="_blank" href="mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com">JedRothwell@mindspring.com</a>]<br>Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 12:25 PM 
<br>To: <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" target="_blank" href="mailto:vortex-L@eskimo.com">vortex-L@eskimo.com</a><br>Subject: [Vo]: Supreme Court ruling may ultimately benefit cold fusion<br><br>
<br>Yesterday the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that CO2 is a form of<br>pollution. In the long term, this may benefit cold fusion, for the<br>reasons explained by Felix Kramer of the CalCars plug-in hybrid group:<br><br>&quot;The Supreme Court has ruled that greenhouse gases are polluting 
<br>emissions subject to regulation by the US Environmental Protection<br>Agency. As a result, new cars in the relatively near future are going<br>to have to emit much lower CO2 than they do now...<br><br>Jed Rothwell wrote: 
<br><br>&gt; Rhong Dhong wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; It&#39;s no longer possible to have something like that in the US. One<br>&gt;&gt; suicide bomber will be all it takes to justify turning the screws<br>&gt;&gt; some more. 
<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; The commute will then include the need for each passenger to go<br>&gt;&gt; through a search . . .<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Not a problem. It would take a huge bomb to destroy a fast train, or<br>&gt; make it derail. Much bigger than it takes to destroy 
<br><br>On the contrary, all it would take is a small shaped charge on the<br>track. It would turn all that speeding mass into a very sympathetic target.<br><br><br>--- <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" target="_blank" href="http://usfamily.net/dialup.html">
http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html</a> - $8.25/mo! -- <a onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" target="_blank" href="http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html">http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html</a> - $19.99/mo! ---<br>
<br>&nbsp;</div></div><br>

------=_Part_130963_3552.1177486569116--

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From: "Michel Jullian" <mj@exbang.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
References: <e1f57ce50704250036p4ba5b6b8o6c746c3868327383@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:GENERAL ....vortex Digest V2007 #202 Bill Beatty
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:15:50 +0200
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----- Original Message -----=20
From: "john herman" <hermajohn@gmail.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 9:36 AM
Subject: [Vo]:GENERAL ....vortex Digest V2007 #202 Bill Beatty


> ".....eve that Free Energy is possible with solid state electrical =
equipment
> where the energy is either created or tapped from a vast unseen =
reservoir.
> ....""
>=20
>      How about a well  known and well understood "vast" body of =
energy" ???

The sun?

> Jed wrote..
>=20
>>Engineers are supposed to tell the truth!
>=20
>=20
>       JED------>>>      I wish you would reveal any work you
>               YOU as a person have done....  Please ....

Jed does an enormous work as CF's librarian and most vocal advocate, =
plus he is one of the most scientifically literate science writers I =
know.

...
> Not all that long ago I saw a wonderful article (I think it was =
published in
> either Popular Science or Popular Mechanics) on the conceptual design =
of a
> heavier than air "zeppelin" using 21st century state of the art =
technology.
> I think it was powered by a combination of solar cells and =
rechargeable
> batteries powering a series of electric props positioned along the =
sides.
> (Come to think of it, with NanoSolar's "printed" flexible solar film
> technology just around the corner, I think it's an even better bet.) =
It
> looked like a very FAT blimp filled with helium. The beauty of the =
concept
> was that when you cut the power it would simply float back to the =
ground, or
> body of water for that matter. Only when the electric props were =
actively
> engaged would there be enough air lift to get it off the ground - and =
on to
> infinity!
>=20
> The conceptual images indicated to me that there would be sufficient
> passenger space (particularly on the observational deck) to make one =
feel as
> if they were strolling about on a cruse ship. What a view! Think "The =
Fifth
> Element" and you get the picture. No warp drives, however, at least =
not in
> the current model. I think it cruses at around 100 - 150 MPH.
>=20
> I suspect the only thing holding them back are the old unjustified
> Hindenburg fears. The only concern I would personally harbor would be =
how it
> would negotiate its substantial girth through nasty cold fronts and =
other
> bad weather.
>=20
> Regardless, I'd love to see them frolicking above.
>=20
> Regards,
> Steven Vincent Johnson
> www.OrionWorks.com <http://www.orionworks.com/>

So would I! At least those things can stay aloft without emitting GHGs! =
I doubt bad weather can be a real problem, or the old times zeps would =
necessarily have had problems while crossing the Atlantic, as weather =
forecasts were probably much shorter term than crossing times.

Michel

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Subject: Global climate calculator (was Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:06:03 +0200
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Ed's argument is indeed quite pertinent.

Terry, you will find a freely downloadable ready-made climate calculator =
here:
http://edgcm.columbia.edu/download/
It's a so-called "global climate calculator" i.e. it also takes into =
account the oceans (how accurately I don't know), not just the =
atmosphere and the radiative balance.

The tutorial here explains how to use it to determine the effects of CO2 =
variations:
http://edgcm.columbia.edu/outreach/exercises/global_warming.html

Michel

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases


> Terry Blanton wrote:
>=20
>>Half way down.  In 1960 CO2 was 310 ppm.  Now it's 380 ppm.  This
>>causes drastic changes in climate?!?
>=20
> Yes, it does.
>=20
> This reminds me of the idiotic comment by Michael Crichton that Terry=20
> Blanton quoted here in 2005:
>=20
> "Imagine the composition of the Earth's atmosphere as a football=20
> field. Most of the atmosphere is nitrogen. So, starting from the goal=20
> line, nitrogen takes you all the way to the 78 yard line. And most of=20
> what's left is oxygen. Oxygen takes you to the 99 yard line. Most of=20
> what remains is the inert gas argon. Argon brings you within 3 1/2=20
> inches of the goal line. That's pretty much the thickness of the=20
> chalk stripe. And how much of the remaining three inches is carbon=20
> dioxide? One inch.
>=20
> "You are told carbon dioxide has increased in the last 50 years. Do=20
> you know how much it has increased, on our football field?=20
> Three-eighths of an inch -- less than the thickness of a pencil. Yet=20
> you are asked to believe that this tiny change has driven the entire=20
> planet into a dangerous warming pattern."
>=20
> Ed Storms wrote an excellent rebuttal:
>=20
> "An interesting point.  This same point can be made about=20
> cyanide.  An average person weighs about 80,000 gm.  It takes about=20
> 50 mg of NaCN to kill an average person, which is only 0.0022 inches=20
> on the football field.  Obviously, a person can not be harmed by such=20
> a small distance.
>=20
> No wonder the average person has no understanding of the real world=20
> when this kind of argument is used."
>=20
> - Jed
>

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Kyle R. Mcallister wrote:
 > To all, and some in particular, and some not in particular....
 >
 > Please READ people's posts before posting replies. That means the whole
 > damned thing, whether or not you agree with it. If you do not take the
 > time to read the entire thing, either because you are too lazy to do so,
 > or because the content disgusts you, then you do not have the necessary
 > courage or fortitude to make a decent reply. Period. Exclamation point.
 > At sign. Divide by. (you get the point I suppose)
 >
 > Case in point: Jeff Fink was attacked for being supposedly on the side
 > of the oil companies. He specifically stated in more than one post that
 > he is all for getting OFF of the addiction to oil. Stop attacking people
 > when you do not read the entire post.


Please no offense intended, but your email is blatant Ad hominem and hate. 
Global Warming is vitally important. If Jeff made huge errors then a person has 
every write to show Jeff his errors and not have to worry hurting Jeff's 
feelings. I'm certain Jeff is strong and can take truth, especially when it 
comes to a vitally important topic as Global Warming.




 > Again, WHY is it that the side which questions Global Warming as caused
 > by technology the polite and thoughful side,


That's your interpretation.




 > yet the majority (not all,
 > some are OK) of the pro-industrial caused Global Warming side is really
 > beginning to paint themselves as hateful scumbags who do not give a damn
 > what happens to the working class people,


Kyle, *please* refrain from name-calling and ad hominem remarks. Working class 
people?  Is that all you're concerned about, the financial state of working 
class people (the almighty $$$) when humanity is generating an upcoming Ice Age 
that could wipe millions of beautiful and priceless species and perhaps even 
humanity off the face of this beautiful planet???????  ... Unbelievable!




 > as long as "Owl" Gore is A-OK, and his carbon credits too.


I very much admire Al Gore who is trying to educate people on Global Warming in 
an attempt to help save this planet.




 > Inevitably, it seems, any attempt to discuss
 > what is going on scientifically becomes a gaggle of ultra-liberals
 > swooping down to brand everything as partisan or political.


Please Kyle, lets not get all bent up because present evidence is overwhelming 
that humanity is the major cause of Global Warming.

Yet one more time I'll be more than happy to discuss the facts with you. CO2 
levels have cycled through out the hundreds of thousands of years. Take a look 
at the chart. Then humanity arrives and CO2 levels skyrocket to ~5 times any 
known CO2 level. What about the recent vast project where scientists entered 
every known related effect in NASA's supercomputer that shows humanity is the 
cause of Global Warming. Did you see the computer generated graph? It matches 
the graph of real data! What about recent Global Warming television documentary 
programs that state 99% of the science community related to this field with over 
2000 scientists now agree Global Warming is caused by humanity.  Please brother, 
lets get past the almighty buck *on just this one* and take responsibility. Next 
time you go hiking look at God's creatures eye to eye and tell me your don't 
care enough to take blame.




 > Next, the neo-cons emerge from their lairs and counterattack with remarks that
 > make the first group of idiots look right. No science then gets
 > discussed.


I have done nothing but show data and correct blatant errors of those who oppose 
GW caused by humanity.

Sorry, your email is blatant Ad hominem completely lacking any scientific data 
filled with name-calling and hate.




 > The working class are still left driving the evil
 > automoblile, and no one says, hey, lets make some real world, nuts and
 > bolts engineering to actually DO something about this, and help the
 > "little guy" out in the process.


Countless species and lives are at stake here and you attack people because you 
don't want to hurt the financial well being of the so-called "little guy" ??? 
We are all trying to help, but first people need educating so they can at least 
accept the fact that humanity is the cause and what caused such Global Warming!





Regards,
Paul Lowrance






 > Also, why are we bringing religion and religious prophecy into this?
 > This is supposed to be about science, not theology.
 >
 > A couple personal points:
 >
 > To Paul Lowrance: the above is not directed at you. Though I disagree
 > with you on the issue of Global Warming, your posts have been quite
 > polite and civililzed, and I thank you for that. And, regardless of
 > whether or not we agree or disagree on GW, I am right here with you in
 > wanting to see the end of the oil-burning age. Maybe a thread should be
 > begun to discuss real world solar/etc., how we can make it cheap, ideas,
 > experiments on such, etc.?
 >
 > To Dr. Mitchell Swartz: Your post was brief, but very good, in my
 > opinion. I for one am glad you are still on the list.
 >
 > To all of us: Now lets go do some experiments, and find some answers. We
 > here on Vortex are a myriad collection of peoples from across the globe,
 > with many different backgrounds and with our own unique skills. Let us
 > work together, and try to really find the answers. Or to put it more
 > humorously, with due apologies to the great folks who made "Animal House":
 >
 > OTTER: In this case, I think we have to go all out. I think this
 > situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done
 > on somebody's part!
 > BLUTARSKY: We're just the guys to do it!
 > BOONE: Lets do it.
 > BLUTARSKY: LETS DO IT!!! GO GO GO GO!!!!
 > <Mayhem and madness ensues>
 >
 > --Kyle, hopefully not on "double secret probation"
 >
 >
 >

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Apr 25 08:06:52 2007
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From: "Michel Jullian" <mj@exbang.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
References: <f7eeb3430704241046w273592b2u10f4bd61afcad5da@mail.gmail.com> <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> <f7eeb3430704241408x81793cdq35bbd734d166a9ac@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <08c801c78729$b739dce0$3800a8c0@zothan>
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Subject: [Vo]:Re: Global climate calculator (was Re: Atmospheric Gases)
Status: O
X-Status: 

> It's a so-called "global climate calculator"

Sorry I meant "global climate model" (GCM):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_climate_model

Other article of interest (explains the mechanism of IR absorption by =
the CO2 molecules):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_effect

Michel

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Michel Jullian" <mj@exbang.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 1:06 PM
Subject: Global climate calculator (was Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases)


Ed's argument is indeed quite pertinent.

Terry, you will find a freely downloadable ready-made climate calculator =
here:
http://edgcm.columbia.edu/download/
It's a so-called "global climate calculator" i.e. it also takes into =
account the oceans (how accurately I don't know), not just the =
atmosphere and the radiative balance.

The tutorial here explains how to use it to determine the effects of CO2 =
variations:
http://edgcm.columbia.edu/outreach/exercises/global_warming.html

Michel

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases


> Terry Blanton wrote:
>=20
>>Half way down.  In 1960 CO2 was 310 ppm.  Now it's 380 ppm.  This
>>causes drastic changes in climate?!?
>=20
> Yes, it does.
>=20
> This reminds me of the idiotic comment by Michael Crichton that Terry=20
> Blanton quoted here in 2005:
>=20
> "Imagine the composition of the Earth's atmosphere as a football=20
> field. Most of the atmosphere is nitrogen. So, starting from the goal=20
> line, nitrogen takes you all the way to the 78 yard line. And most of=20
> what's left is oxygen. Oxygen takes you to the 99 yard line. Most of=20
> what remains is the inert gas argon. Argon brings you within 3 1/2=20
> inches of the goal line. That's pretty much the thickness of the=20
> chalk stripe. And how much of the remaining three inches is carbon=20
> dioxide? One inch.
>=20
> "You are told carbon dioxide has increased in the last 50 years. Do=20
> you know how much it has increased, on our football field?=20
> Three-eighths of an inch -- less than the thickness of a pencil. Yet=20
> you are asked to believe that this tiny change has driven the entire=20
> planet into a dangerous warming pattern."
>=20
> Ed Storms wrote an excellent rebuttal:
>=20
> "An interesting point.  This same point can be made about=20
> cyanide.  An average person weighs about 80,000 gm.  It takes about=20
> 50 mg of NaCN to kill an average person, which is only 0.0022 inches=20
> on the football field.  Obviously, a person can not be harmed by such=20
> a small distance.
>=20
> No wonder the average person has no understanding of the real world=20
> when this kind of argument is used."
>=20
> - Jed
>

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Subject: [Vo]:Zepplins and weather
Status: O
X-Status: 

Michel Jullian wrote:

>I doubt bad weather can be a real problem, or the old times zeps 
>would necessarily have had problems while crossing the Atlantic, as 
>weather forecasts were probably much shorter term than crossing times.

Old time Zeppelins had tremendous problems with weather. Two U.S. 
Navy zeps were destroyed by weather (the Shenandoah and the Acron), 
and heavy rain played a role in the destruction of the R101, although 
it was mainly bad design. I think I recall one passenger zep was 
brought down by bad weather in Canada. The zeps could not cross the 
north Atlantic routes in winter, so they flew from Germany to South 
America instead.

I believe that U.S. Navy blimps during WWII had a better safety and 
endurance record. They were quite valuable in anti-submarine warfare. 
The U.S. Navy used blimps until 1961.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: [Vo]:Zepplins and weather
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Thanks Jed for correcting me. Such problems, combined to snailish speed =
(~100 km/h =3D 60 mph) and other limitations seem to limit the use of =
airships to niche applications. Nice wiki article on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airship
Some of the applications are quite interesting though. The "designs =
under development" section features an original "airship to orbit" =
project based on V shaped blimps, sort of advanced weather balloons =
meant to go to the top of the atmosphere and beyond:
http://www.jpaerospace.com/

Michel

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 5:27 PM
Subject: [Vo]:Zepplins and weather


> Michel Jullian wrote:
>=20
>>I doubt bad weather can be a real problem, or the old times zeps=20
>>would necessarily have had problems while crossing the Atlantic, as=20
>>weather forecasts were probably much shorter term than crossing times.
>=20
> Old time Zeppelins had tremendous problems with weather. Two U.S.=20
> Navy zeps were destroyed by weather (the Shenandoah and the Acron),=20
> and heavy rain played a role in the destruction of the R101, although=20
> it was mainly bad design. I think I recall one passenger zep was=20
> brought down by bad weather in Canada. The zeps could not cross the=20
> north Atlantic routes in winter, so they flew from Germany to South=20
> America instead.
>=20
> I believe that U.S. Navy blimps during WWII had a better safety and=20
> endurance record. They were quite valuable in anti-submarine warfare.=20
> The U.S. Navy used blimps until 1961.
>=20
> - Jed
>

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Consolidating to Gmail
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Steven Vincent Johnson
svj@orionworks.com
http://orionworks.com
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Consolidating to Gmail<br />
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Subject: [Vo]:Suggestion to John Herman
Status: RO
X-Status: 

SUBJECT: Suggestion to John Herman

John,

This is just a suggestion, and it's just my own opinion that I'm
expressing here, but...

If you want to convey your thoughts and opinions I would strongly
suggest you make an effort to conform you literary style to a more
traditional visual approach. You know... where we use sentences
logically grouped in paragraphs.

Every time I view one of your posts I haven't got a clue where to
start or where to end. I have no idea what you personally wrote versus
what other posters have written that you might be responding to. I end
up not reading your posts simply because at my age I no longer feel
inclined to try to decipher the mysterious and complex thoughts of
others if they aren't willing to meet me half way.

Your writing stile rivals that of Java code.

If you're into experimental writing styles I would strongly recommend
you try to find a group list that loves to explore alternative
techniques, and then get feedback from them, that is if you can
decipher their own unique literary styles. But please, please, PLEASE,
try to stick to a more traditional literary approach here.

I hope you do not take offense to this suggestion, though I can see
how one might.
-- 
Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Michel Jullian wrote:

>Some of the applications are quite interesting though. The "designs 
>under development" section features an original "airship to orbit" 
>project based on V shaped blimps, sort of advanced weather balloons 
>meant to go to the top of the atmosphere and beyond:
>http://www.jpaerospace.com/

That's astounding!

- Jed

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Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 14:07:43 -0500
From: OrionWorks <svj.orionworks@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:Zepplins and weather
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>>Michel Jullian wrote:

>> Some of the applications are quite interesting though.
>> The "designs under development" section features an
>> original "airship to orbit" project based on V shaped
>> blimps, sort of advanced weather balloons meant to
>> go to the top of the atmosphere and beyond:
>> http://www.jpaerospace.com/
>
>That's astounding!
>
>- Jed

I second that.

Great photos.

It would not suprise me in the least that a good chunk of the current
research may have originated, at least initially, from DOD spin-off.
Triangular "V" shaped UFOs have been one of the most commonly reported
objects for decades.

But don't quote me on that.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:05:52 -0500
From: Harry Veeder <eo200@freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Zepplins and weather
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hmmm

http://www.worth1000.com/entries/210500/210623UaDY_w.jpg

Harry

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:25:59 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  leaking pen's message of Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:36:37 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>now, the mechanism is likely a global warming, causing ice cap melting
>and a change in albedo, causeing cooling, leading to ice age, thats

Since ice is more reflective than water, when the ice melts, the Earth =
absorbs
more heat, not less.
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

The shrub is a plant.

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From: "leaking pen" <itsatrap@gmail.com>
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except water is still reflective, more reflective than land, and large
amounts of land surface become water, yes?

On 4/25/07, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> In reply to  leaking pen's message of Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:36:37 -0700:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >now, the mechanism is likely a global warming, causing ice cap melting
> >and a change in albedo, causeing cooling, leading to ice age, thats
>
> Since ice is more reflective than water, when the ice melts, the Earth absorbs
> more heat, not less.
> [snip]
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> The shrub is a plant.
>
>


-- 
That which yields isn't always weak.

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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> In reply to  leaking pen's message of Tue, 24 Apr 2007 16:36:37 -0700:
> Hi,
> [snip]
>> now, the mechanism is likely a global warming, causing ice cap melting
>> and a change in albedo, causeing cooling, leading to ice age, thats
> 
> Since ice is more reflective than water, when the ice melts, the Earth absorbs
> more heat, not less.

That's true. A scientist talked about that in "GLOBAL WARMING: What You Need To 
Know with Tom Brokaw."  This scientist is working at the poles. Furthermore, he 
said over the years on average significant amount of land that used to covered 
by ice is now absorbing more radiation that the ice that used to cover such 
land. These are factors the recent computer simulation software takes into effect.



leaking pen wrote:
 > except water is still reflective, more reflective than land, and large
 > amounts of land surface become water, yes?

If Ice is over land:
Ice that melts over land is absorbed in the soil. This results in more radiation 
absorption the ice.

If Ice is in water:
Ice that melts in the ocean results in more radiation absorption because water 
absorbs more radiation than water.



Regards,
Paul Lowrance

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Apr 25 17:45:33 2007
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Lowrance" <energymover@gmail.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE

<snip a lot...all in fact, read it carefully though>

I take it then that you nor anyone else really wants to try to do anything 
about this. Just let the great masters like Al Gore do it all by trading 
carbon credits, and we will all be ok....well, as long as we are not the 
ones who won't be ok. If that makes any sense.

I was very wrong in what I posted last night, I admit. After carefully 
reading your reply, and which parts in particular you decided not to reply 
to or discuss, I admit I made a mistake in exempting you from the proverbial 
point of my spear. I will not make the mistake again of giving credit where 
it is not due.

Now, is there anyone left here who really wants to work on alternatives, and 
by that I mean, stuff that is cheap and cheerful enough for the little guys 
to be able to use? And yes I am a big supporter of the little guys. If they 
don't exist, the menial laborers and such, the upperclass would die off in 
very short order. Mark my words. Turn out the lights, cut off the parts and 
supplies long enough, and we all become barbarians again.

Regards,
--Kyle 

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Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:05:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: PHILIP WINESTONE <philip.winestone@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE
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Yes - I've had a few run-ins with people who (a) have never been inside a factory let alone gotten their hands dirty in one, and (b) have no idea what it's like to be an "hourly paid" working dude, most times at the mercy of "trends".  Then there's the joy of shift-work...

My own take on energy - I'm in the Cold Fusion arena, at least as a support person - is to bring Cold Fusion to the people; the real people, that is, who often have an intuitive wisdom far greater than the overly educated.  Bring Cold Fusion to the people in the form of solid, practical applications, and they'll buy into it.  Do NOT bring cold fusion to the government or academia, for some kind of approval (or funding), because both will (and have) talk it to death.

P.


----- Original Message ----
From: Kyle R. Mcallister <weir@fdscience.org>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:47:40 PM
Subject: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE

To all, and some in particular, and some not in particular....

Please READ people's posts before posting replies. That means the whole 
damned thing, whether or not you agree with it. If you do not take the time 
to read the entire thing, either because you are too lazy to do so, or 
because the content disgusts you, then you do not have the necessary courage 
or fortitude to make a decent reply. Period. Exclamation point. At sign. 
Divide by. (you get the point I suppose)

Case in point: Jeff Fink was attacked for being supposedly on the side of 
the oil companies. He specifically stated in more than one post that he is 
all for getting OFF of the addiction to oil. Stop attacking people when you 
do not read the entire post.

Again, WHY is it that the side which questions Global Warming as caused by 
technology the polite and thoughful side, yet the majority (not all, some 
are OK) of the pro-industrial caused Global Warming side is really beginning 
to paint themselves as hateful scumbags who do not give a damn what happens 
to the working class people, as long as "Owl" Gore is A-OK, and his carbon 
credits too. Inevitably, it seems, any attempt to discuss what is going on 
scientifically becomes a gaggle of ultra-liberals swooping down to brand 
everything as partisan or political. Next, the neo-cons emerge from their 
lairs and counterattack with remarks that make the first group of idiots 
look right. No science then gets discussed. The working class are still left 
driving the evil automoblile, and no one says, hey, lets make some real 
world, nuts and bolts engineering to actually DO something about this, and 
help the "little guy" out in the process.

Also, why are we bringing religion and religious prophecy into this? This is 
supposed to be about science, not theology.

A couple personal points:

To Paul Lowrance: the above is not directed at you. Though I disagree with 
you on the issue of Global Warming, your posts have been quite polite and 
civililzed, and I thank you for that. And, regardless of whether or not we 
agree or disagree on GW, I am right here with you in wanting to see the end 
of the oil-burning age. Maybe a thread should be begun to discuss real world 
solar/etc., how we can make it cheap, ideas, experiments on such, etc.?

To Dr. Mitchell Swartz: Your post was brief, but very good, in my opinion. I 
for one am glad you are still on the list.

To all of us: Now lets go do some experiments, and find some answers. We 
here on Vortex are a myriad collection of peoples from across the globe, 
with many different backgrounds and with our own unique skills. Let us work 
together, and try to really find the answers. Or to put it more humorously, 
with due apologies to the great folks who made "Animal House":

OTTER: In this case, I think we have to go all out. I think this situation 
absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's 
part!
BLUTARSKY: We're just the guys to do it!
BOONE: Lets do it.
BLUTARSKY: LETS DO IT!!! GO GO GO GO!!!!
<Mayhem and madness ensues>

--Kyle, hopefully not on "double secret probation"







--0-1646537653-1177545936=:84431
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii

<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">Yes - I've had a few run-ins with people who (a) have never been inside a factory let alone gotten their hands dirty in one, and (b) have no idea what it's like to be an "hourly paid" working dude, most times at the mercy of "trends".&nbsp; Then there's the joy of shift-work...<br><br>My own take on energy - I'm in the Cold Fusion arena, at least as a support person - is to bring Cold Fusion to the people; the real people, that is, who often have an intuitive wisdom far greater than the overly educated.&nbsp; Bring Cold Fusion to the people in the form of solid, practical applications, and they'll buy into it.&nbsp; Do NOT bring cold fusion to the government or academia, for some kind of approval (or funding), because both will (and have) talk it to
 death.<br><br>P.<br><br><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">----- Original Message ----<br>From: Kyle R. Mcallister &lt;weir@fdscience.org&gt;<br>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<br>Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2007 11:47:40 PM<br>Subject: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE<br><br><div>To all, and some in particular, and some not in particular....<br><br>Please READ people's posts before posting replies. That means the whole <br>damned thing, whether or not you agree with it. If you do not take the time <br>to read the entire thing, either because you are too lazy to do so, or <br>because the content disgusts you, then you do not have the necessary courage <br>or fortitude to make a decent reply. Period. Exclamation point. At sign. <br>Divide by. (you get the point I suppose)<br><br>Case in point: Jeff Fink was attacked for being supposedly on the side of <br>the oil companies. He specifically stated in more than one post that he is
 <br>all for getting OFF of the addiction to oil. Stop attacking people when you <br>do not read the entire post.<br><br>Again, WHY is it that the side which questions Global Warming as caused by <br>technology the polite and thoughful side, yet the majority (not all, some <br>are OK) of the pro-industrial caused Global Warming side is really beginning <br>to paint themselves as hateful scumbags who do not give a damn what happens <br>to the working class people, as long as "Owl" Gore is A-OK, and his carbon <br>credits too. Inevitably, it seems, any attempt to discuss what is going on <br>scientifically becomes a gaggle of ultra-liberals swooping down to brand <br>everything as partisan or political. Next, the neo-cons emerge from their <br>lairs and counterattack with remarks that make the first group of idiots <br>look right. No science then gets discussed. The working class are still left <br>driving the evil automoblile, and no one says, hey, lets make some real
 <br>world, nuts and bolts engineering to actually DO something about this, and <br>help the "little guy" out in the process.<br><br>Also, why are we bringing religion and religious prophecy into this? This is <br>supposed to be about science, not theology.<br><br>A couple personal points:<br><br>To Paul Lowrance: the above is not directed at you. Though I disagree with <br>you on the issue of Global Warming, your posts have been quite polite and <br>civililzed, and I thank you for that. And, regardless of whether or not we <br>agree or disagree on GW, I am right here with you in wanting to see the end <br>of the oil-burning age. Maybe a thread should be begun to discuss real world <br>solar/etc., how we can make it cheap, ideas, experiments on such, etc.?<br><br>To Dr. Mitchell Swartz: Your post was brief, but very good, in my opinion. I <br>for one am glad you are still on the list.<br><br>To all of us: Now lets go do some experiments, and find some answers. We <br>here
 on Vortex are a myriad collection of peoples from across the globe, <br>with many different backgrounds and with our own unique skills. Let us work <br>together, and try to really find the answers. Or to put it more humorously, <br>with due apologies to the great folks who made "Animal House":<br><br>OTTER: In this case, I think we have to go all out. I think this situation <br>absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's <br>part!<br>BLUTARSKY: We're just the guys to do it!<br>BOONE: Lets do it.<br>BLUTARSKY: LETS DO IT!!! GO GO GO GO!!!!<br>&lt;Mayhem and madness ensues&gt;<br><br>--Kyle, hopefully not on "double secret probation"<br><br><br></div></div><br></div></div></body></html>
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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Apr 26 06:03:30 2007
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Subject: [VO]: American Idol vs.LENR
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BlankHowdy Vorts,

Perhaps there is a side to LENR I never saw before...( with all due =
respect to Burl Ives).=20

Could it be that "American Idol", the most popular TV program ever has a =
message for us all ? What is it about "Idol" that captures the =
imagination?  Could it be the built end anticipation of the "ending". =
Therein lies the clue.

Maybe what we are watching in LENR is not so much the lack of =
recognition of the progress of the science ..so much as a seeming =
inherent fatalism of society's future.

Richard


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<DIV>Howdy Vorts,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Perhaps there is a side to LENR I never saw before...( with all due =
respect=20
to Burl Ives). </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Could it be that "American Idol", the most popular TV program ever =
has a=20
message for us all ?&nbsp;What is it about "Idol" that captures the=20
imagination?&nbsp; Could it be the built end anticipation of the =
"ending".=20
Therein lies the clue.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Maybe what we are watching in LENR is not so much the lack of =
recognition=20
of the progress of the science ..so much as a seeming inherent fatalism =
of=20
society's future.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Richard</DIV>
<P>&nbsp;</P></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Apr 26 09:16:14 2007
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Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:15:44 -0400
To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE
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PHILIP WINESTONE wrote:

>My own take on energy - I'm in the Cold Fusion arena, at least as a 
>support person - is to bring Cold Fusion to the people; the real people . . .

I wrote something similar in the Introduction to my book, quoting 
Sir. H. C. Beaver: "on public opinion, and on it alone, finally rests 
the issue." I said: "The public will not act until we convince it 
that cold fusion is worth funding."


>. . . that is, who often have an intuitive wisdom far greater than 
>the overly educated . .

No one is overly educated. Compared to how people will be in 1000 
years, we are all ignorant savages, barely removed from cavemen. 
Intuition has its uses, but as Clarke's third law has it: Any 
sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. In 
1800, no intuition, however powerful, could have envisioned things 
such as nuclear power, cold fusion, computers, or mass spectroscopy 
of distant stars and planets. A few highly educated people might 
barely have imagined the telegraph, and many more saw the possibility 
of railroads, but their vision would have owed more to educated logic 
than intuition. Even today, most people cannot imagine that cold 
fusion exists. Their problem is not that they lack intuition; what 
they lack is rigorous, evidenced-based, experimental hard science. 
They depend too much on imagination, and not enough on textbook science.

The two great visionaries of the distant past -- Roger Bacon and 
Francis Bacon -- both based their ideas on clear thinking and 
extrapolation, not intuition.


>.  Bring Cold Fusion to the people in the form of solid, practical 
>applications, and they'll buy into it.

ANYONE would buy into cold fusion if we had solid, practical 
application! The problem is how to get from where we are now to those 
practical applications. The only people who have contributed to cold 
fusion, and the only ones who doing anything to move it along now, 
are the elite, highly educated mainstream research scientists such as 
Storms, Miles, Miley, Fleischmann, Oriani, McKubre, Boss, Szpak, 
Mizuno and so on.


>   Do NOT bring cold fusion to the government or academia, for some 
> kind of approval (or funding), because both will (and have) talk it to death.

The discovery of cold fusion in the 1980s, and every scrap of 
progress that has been made in the field since then, has all been 
done at government and academic institutions (universities and 
national labs), plus a small number of corporate labs, such as Amoco, 
Mitsubishi, and the Everready Battery Co. There has no been 
contribution from members of the general public, and not a bit of 
political support either, I am sorry to say.

Cold fusion cannot be developed at home by ordinary folks any more 
than a new type of semiconductor chip could be. It calls for 
expensive, high-tech equipment operated by experts.

- Jed

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From: OrionWorks <svj.orionworks@gmail.com>
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>From Jed:

...

> Cold fusion cannot be developed at home by ordinary
> folks any more than a new type of semiconductor chip
> could be. It calls for expensive, high-tech equipment
> operated by experts.
>
> - Jed

And yet, the amount of funding that would need to be involved for
adequate CF research would by all accounts dwarf the amount of funding
that has been sunk into HF research for decades.

Such irony.

Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:48:43 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE
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 >
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OrionWorks wrote:

>And yet, the amount of funding that would need to be involved for
>adequate CF research would by all accounts dwarf the amount of funding
>that has been sunk into HF research for decades.

I think you mean "be dwarfed by." They have spent billions on hot 
fusion, and I think cold fusion can be developed -- or not -- with a 
few hundred million. "Or not" means that with that much money we 
might determine cold fusion cannot easily be developed. It may be 
like hot fusion in that regard, which probably cannot be made 
practical with any amount of money, given our present state of knowledge.

The amount of funding needed is trivial by the standards of the U.S. 
economy. We spend $6 billion per year on cosmetics, for goodness sake.

Once cold fusion is made practical, we would then have to spend 
hundreds of billions of dollars engineering new products and on new 
factory production lines. As I pointed out in the book, however, we 
have to make new factory production lines anyway, and the investment 
in cold fusion would pay back very quickly.

- Jed

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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
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Subject: [Vo]:Second Life (& the Martix)
Status: RO
X-Status: 

"Second Life" is an ominous code-word of sorts in today's meme_world. 




The meaning, however, depends on which clique one happens to be a part of- presently... gamer-dude. Hey, they may call it a Playstation nowadays, but how long till it morphs into a forced-work-station? That, my friend, is what the trickster excels at: the double and triple-cross of making 'control' seem voluntary. Here is the plain vanilla story with following speculation, partially regurgitated.

 

 http://www.ddj.com/blog/portal/archives/2007/04/playstation_mee.html

 

For present purposes, the following piece of wordy bogosity will not even consider the implications of second-life as they relate to religious dogma. There is plenty of info and dis-info on that subject elsewhere, yet it is all definitely entangled together as a prophetic view of a new collective identity: a NWO, so to speak.



For the computer gamer, the second-life concept refers to the next generation of "virtual world" applications, such as the 3D Internet. Not just "SimCity" on steroids, but way beyond that level of visual crudeness. It will better than the best Pixar movie imaginable, and with human characters (avatars) so real that no one can be sure of what/who is real, and and what is not - and all done "on the fly", according to the whims of the game participants. This is on schedule for 2010.



To the millennial alarmist or conspiracy theorist, on the other hand, "Second Life" could refer to an enabling technology for a kind of "Matrix" scenario, in the years following 2012, not unlike the movie ... which will result in a (possibly voluntary) type of future enslavement by machines of our own creation.



 It may appear to be voluntary, but the choice will like be that or nothing, so to speak. The irony is that the former field (computer games) will probably be seen as one of the major technological stepping stone for the later. A rapid advance towards a hidden goal requires an innocuous mass market, with lots of profit incentives, for quickly pushing the development of enabling-tek towards what could be a hidden goal (tyranny)... unless that kind of "everlasting life" is attractive to your tastes. 

Part of a trickster master plan, it would seem - since what is one person's tyranny is another's nirvana.



And now for a good one: the Matrix in the context of 'alternative-energy' ... ROTFL- since in the eponymous movie, and perhaps as a dose of tongue-in-cheek humor, the remnant human population was said to be enslaved merely as "batteries" i.e. an energy source for a future energy-depleted world. 



Ironically in the NWO, and in the ultimate vision of human destiny: paradise is both eternal physical life, but of a type which has no correspondence to what the individual thinks is happening. It is 'tank life' - being hard-wired into a mainframe, and may end-up being be similar in appearances to the movie- i.e. an immobilized, enslaved, but totally "happy" and content population ... yet with a divine purpose which is a bit more sinister (than batteries).



Why? Why not just destroy us all? Well, almost every serious Futurist who looks at AI concludes that the one and only thing which computers of the future will not be better at than humans is that special kind of creativity which is found in a tiny percentage of artists, inventors, writers, musicians, theorists and so on. The remaining 99.99% of humanity is just along for the ride, worker-bees who fill in the gaps made possible by a tiny segment of creative individuals. 



Is it poetic justice that this arty population of thinkers will be the future occupants of the matrix-tanks ? or, as gruesome as that sounds at first - at least there is a future for them, as for the other 99.99% of our species, they will likely share with dinosaurs the title of 'former dominant species' ... museum displays at best - at least according to those alarmists who would try to read much into cultural trends.



Well, today's advance towards that vision of the NWO isn't much more threatening than the headline: PlayStation 3 meets the mainframe -- but it's still ominous to some. The deal in the article above is that IBM announced a project that integrates many of the near-teraflop cell processors (developed along with Sony for the PlayStation 3 game console) into an IBM mainframe.  To what end? According to IBM - and assuming that they are not already under trickster control - it is for the purpose of creating a future hybrid that is fast and powerful enough to handle the new generation of "virtual world" applications - i.e.: second-life. 



... or else, it this another piece of an emerging picture-puzzle - a real game we can now call  "Evolutionary-Jump". On NPR recently there was an update on a  non-invasive brain-computer interface technology, which already  offers more control than once thought possible. A brain-computer interface (BCI) translates  electric signals detected from the scalp or other stimuli into a command structure which the computer  understands, and vice versa. It offers the same precision and  speed as electrodes surgically  implanted in the brain, but it had been widely assumed that only invasive devices could  control complex activity.

 http://www.news-medical.net/?id=6745

 

 Which brings to mind the continuation and logical progression of other prophetic visions seen in film-art: which are the subject of two remarkable but overlooked cinematic  masterpieces - "Strange Days" and "Brainstorm".



Fortunately, there is both a benign and a tyrannical vision of where it all could be leading. More later - on a more inviting kind of future-tek paradise. 



Sorry, guys, the 72 virgins is out. But Mr Smith can probably arrange something like that for your tank, if you prefer...



Jones











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From: "leaking pen" <itsatrap@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:Second Life (& the Martix)
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Jones...  what are you smoking, and can i get some?

On 4/26/07, Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:
> "Second Life" is an ominous code-word of sorts in today's meme_world.
>
>
>
>
> The meaning, however, depends on which clique one happens to be a part of- presently... gamer-dude. Hey, they may call it a Playstation nowadays, but how long till it morphs into a forced-work-station? That, my friend, is what the trickster excels at: the double and triple-cross of making 'control' seem voluntary. Here is the plain vanilla story with following speculation, partially regurgitated.
>
>
>
>  http://www.ddj.com/blog/portal/archives/2007/04/playstation_mee.html
>
>
>
> For present purposes, the following piece of wordy bogosity will not even consider the implications of second-life as they relate to religious dogma. There is plenty of info and dis-info on that subject elsewhere, yet it is all definitely entangled together as a prophetic view of a new collective identity: a NWO, so to speak.
>
>
>
> For the computer gamer, the second-life concept refers to the next generation of "virtual world" applications, such as the 3D Internet. Not just "SimCity" on steroids, but way beyond that level of visual crudeness. It will better than the best Pixar movie imaginable, and with human characters (avatars) so real that no one can be sure of what/who is real, and and what is not - and all done "on the fly", according to the whims of the game participants. This is on schedule for 2010.
>
>
>
> To the millennial alarmist or conspiracy theorist, on the other hand, "Second Life" could refer to an enabling technology for a kind of "Matrix" scenario, in the years following 2012, not unlike the movie ... which will result in a (possibly voluntary) type of future enslavement by machines of our own creation.
>
>
>
>  It may appear to be voluntary, but the choice will like be that or nothing, so to speak. The irony is that the former field (computer games) will probably be seen as one of the major technological stepping stone for the later. A rapid advance towards a hidden goal requires an innocuous mass market, with lots of profit incentives, for quickly pushing the development of enabling-tek towards what could be a hidden goal (tyranny)... unless that kind of "everlasting life" is attractive to your tastes.
>
> Part of a trickster master plan, it would seem - since what is one person's tyranny is another's nirvana.
>
>
>
> And now for a good one: the Matrix in the context of 'alternative-energy' ... ROTFL- since in the eponymous movie, and perhaps as a dose of tongue-in-cheek humor, the remnant human population was said to be enslaved merely as "batteries" i.e. an energy source for a future energy-depleted world.
>
>
>
> Ironically in the NWO, and in the ultimate vision of human destiny: paradise is both eternal physical life, but of a type which has no correspondence to what the individual thinks is happening. It is 'tank life' - being hard-wired into a mainframe, and may end-up being be similar in appearances to the movie- i.e. an immobilized, enslaved, but totally "happy" and content population ... yet with a divine purpose which is a bit more sinister (than batteries).
>
>
>
> Why? Why not just destroy us all? Well, almost every serious Futurist who looks at AI concludes that the one and only thing which computers of the future will not be better at than humans is that special kind of creativity which is found in a tiny percentage of artists, inventors, writers, musicians, theorists and so on. The remaining 99.99% of humanity is just along for the ride, worker-bees who fill in the gaps made possible by a tiny segment of creative individuals.
>
>
>
> Is it poetic justice that this arty population of thinkers will be the future occupants of the matrix-tanks ? or, as gruesome as that sounds at first - at least there is a future for them, as for the other 99.99% of our species, they will likely share with dinosaurs the title of 'former dominant species' ... museum displays at best - at least according to those alarmists who would try to read much into cultural trends.
>
>
>
> Well, today's advance towards that vision of the NWO isn't much more threatening than the headline: PlayStation 3 meets the mainframe -- but it's still ominous to some. The deal in the article above is that IBM announced a project that integrates many of the near-teraflop cell processors (developed along with Sony for the PlayStation 3 game console) into an IBM mainframe.  To what end? According to IBM - and assuming that they are not already under trickster control - it is for the purpose of creating a future hybrid that is fast and powerful enough to handle the new generation of "virtual world" applications - i.e.: second-life.
>
>
>
> ... or else, it this another piece of an emerging picture-puzzle - a real game we can now call  "Evolutionary-Jump". On NPR recently there was an update on a  non-invasive brain-computer interface technology, which already  offers more control than once thought possible. A brain-computer interface (BCI) translates  electric signals detected from the scalp or other stimuli into a command structure which the computer  understands, and vice versa. It offers the same precision and  speed as electrodes surgically  implanted in the brain, but it had been widely assumed that only invasive devices could  control complex activity.
>
>  http://www.news-medical.net/?id=6745
>
>
>
>  Which brings to mind the continuation and logical progression of other prophetic visions seen in film-art: which are the subject of two remarkable but overlooked cinematic  masterpieces - "Strange Days" and "Brainstorm".
>
>
>
> Fortunately, there is both a benign and a tyrannical vision of where it all could be leading. More later - on a more inviting kind of future-tek paradise.
>
>
>
> Sorry, guys, the 72 virgins is out. But Mr Smith can probably arrange something like that for your tank, if you prefer...
>
>
>
> Jones
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
That which yields isn't always weak.

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Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:08:36 -0500
From: OrionWorks <svj.orionworks@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Read posts before replying, PLEASE
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>From Jed:

...

> I think you mean "be dwarfed by."

Just to be nit picky and totally annoying I'm not so sure about that.
I reviewed "dwarf" out at http://dict.die.net/dwarf/. One example
sentence uses the word as such:

"Strange power of the world that, the moment we enter it, our great
conceptions dwarf."

But what the hay... or is that hey.

Let's hope CF succeeds.

steve
-- 
Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:23:59 -0500
From: OrionWorks <svj.orionworks@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Second Life (& the Martix)
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Jones sez:

...

> Sorry, guys, the 72 virgins is out. But Mr Smith can probably
> arrange something like that for your tank, if you prefer...
>

Well, my tank better contain 72 virgins, two whores, and a goat. Or no deal.

Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:37:10 -0400
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Subject: [Vo]:Nuke plant has a hydrogen explosion
Status: O
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Frank Z. told me there was an accident reported at the Duke 
Energy McGuire nuclear power plant yesterday. He said 9 hydrogen 
tanks exploded. Frank sounds  indignant, saying this "should never 
have happened." I gather he thinks someone must have been sloppy.

I do not find anything about this on the Internet, so I called the 
online Charlotte Observer, http://www.charlotte.com

They said they heard about the explosion. No one was hurt. The plant 
was not closed down as far as the reporter knows. He realized that 
the explosion was outside the reactor building, but he does not know 
serious it was. He sounded unconcerned. I find nothing on their website.

The NRC website should have a report by and by.

In Japan, there are continued revelations about screw ups and 
covered-up accidents in nuclear and conventional plants going back 30 
years. On a scale of 1 to 10, the power company credibility is around 
minus five, I would say. The news reported that top managers and 
company presidents were slapped on the wrist on Monday, with a 3 
month reduction in pay. They should serving prison sentences!

- Jed

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Subject: [Vo]:Power blackout in Colombia
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The entire electric power system in Columbia failed today. CNN reported:


Power returning to Colombia after nationwide blackout

BOGOTA, Colombia (AP) -- Colombia's electrical grid collapsed 
Thursday, causing a nationwide blackout that briefly halted stock 
trading, trapped people in elevators and left authorities struggling 
to determine the cause.

President Alvaro Uribe told journalists in the southern city of Cali 
that the blackout, which began at midmorning, "appears to have 
affected the entire country."



- Jed

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Subject: [Vo]:Old but good paper
Status: RO
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--=====================_5782421==.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

See:

Adzic, R.R., et al. Tritium Measurements and Deuterium Loading in D2O 
Electrolysis With a Palladium Cathode. in The First Annual Conference 
on Cold Fusion. 1990. University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake 
City, Utah: National Cold Fusion Institute.

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/AdzicRRtritiummea.pdf

- Jed

--=====================_5782421==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
See:<br><br>
Adzic, R.R., et al. <i>Tritium Measurements and Deuterium Loading in D2O
Electrolysis With a Palladium Cathode</i>. in <i>The First Annual
Conference on Cold Fusion</i>. 1990. University of Utah Research Park,
Salt Lake City, Utah: National Cold Fusion Institute. <br><br>
<a href="http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/AdzicRRtritiummea.pdf" eudora="autourl">
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/AdzicRRtritiummea.pdf</a><br><br>
- Jed<br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_5782421==.ALT--

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Subject: [Vo]:Air Emissions Impacts of Plug-In Hybrid Vehicles in   =?iso-8859-1?Q?Minnesota=92s?= Passenger Fleet
Status: O
X-Status: 

--=====================_11066875==.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Here is an interesting document about plug-in hybrid vehicles (PHEV):

Air Emissions Impacts of Plug-In Hybrid Vehicles in Minnesota's Passenger Fleet

http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDocs/Commerce/Air_Emissions_Impacts_of_PlugIn_Hybrid_Vehicles_in_Minnesotas_Pass_032907013010_PCA_PHEV_emissions_FINAL_2.pdf

Fig. 3 and Table 5 show that with 100% of electricity generated with 
coal, a plug-in hybrid electric car with a 60 mile range would 
generate more CO2 per mile than a conventional car. However, most 
Minnesota and most other states have a mixture of coal and other electricity.

Most of this document models a state with 60% electricity generated 
by coal. This is appropriate because in Minnesota, 64% of power comes 
from coal. See:

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/state/state_energy_profiles.cfm?sid=MN

Taking into account the electricity generated from natural gas, I 
suppose the total fossil fuel is ~70%, and from Table 5 I estimate 
carbon emissions for at 60-mile PHEV would be lower by about 25% 
(halfway between 80% and 60%. However, by the time PHEV become widely 
used, I expect Minnesota will install many more wind turbines, so 
total fossil fuel electricity will be down to around 60% (meaning 
that PHEV will reduce CO2 by 34%), or possibly even 50% (reducing CO2 
by 51%). Minnesota is the #4 state in wind energy, and it is 
expanding rapidly. (http://www.awea.org/projects/minnesota.html)

You can see that in California, where coal is hardly used, PHEV would 
greatly reduce CO2. In California, they generate 9 times more power 
from wind and "other renewables" than from coal. See

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/state/state_energy_profiles.cfm?sid=CA

This document lists good sources from EPRI and elsewhere.

- Jed

--=====================_11066875==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
Here is an interesting document about plug-in hybrid vehicles
(PHEV):<br><br>
Air Emissions Impacts of Plug-In Hybrid Vehicles in Minnesotas Passenger
Fleet<br><br>
<a href="http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDocs/Commerce/Air_Emissions_Impacts_of_PlugIn_Hybrid_Vehicles_in_Minnesotas_Pass_032907013010_PCA_PHEV_emissions_FINAL_2.pdf" eudora="autourl">
http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDocs/Commerce/Air_Emissions_Impacts_of_PlugIn_Hybrid_Vehicles_in_Minnesotas_Pass_032907013010_PCA_PHEV_emissions_FINAL_2.pdf</a>
<br><br>
Fig. 3 and Table 5 show that with 100% of electricity generated with
coal, a plug-in hybrid electric car with a 60 mile range would generate
<i>more</i> CO2 per mile than a conventional car. However, most Minnesota
and most other states have a mixture of coal and other electricity.
<br><br>
Most of this document models a state with 60% electricity generated by
coal. This is appropriate because in Minnesota, 64% of power comes from
coal. See:<br><br>
<a href="http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/state/state_energy_profiles.cfm?sid=MN" eudora="autourl">
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/state/state_energy_profiles.cfm?sid=MN</a><br>
<br>
Taking into account the electricity generated from natural gas, I suppose
the total fossil fuel is ~70%, and from Table 5 I estimate carbon
emissions for at 60-mile PHEV would be lower by about 25% (halfway
between 80% and 60%. However, by the time PHEV become widely used, I
expect Minnesota will install many more wind turbines, so total fossil
fuel electricity will be down to around 60% (meaning that PHEV will
reduce CO2 by 34%), or possibly even 50% (reducing CO2 by 51%). Minnesota
is the #4 state in wind energy, and it is expanding rapidly.
(<a href="http://www.awea.org/projects/minnesota.html" eudora="autourl">
http://www.awea.org/projects/minnesota.html</a>)<br><br>
You can see that in California, where coal is hardly used, PHEV would
greatly reduce CO2. In California, they generate 9 times more power from
wind and &quot;other renewables&quot; than from coal. See<br><br>
<a href="http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/state/state_energy_profiles.cfm?sid=CA" eudora="autourl">
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/state/state_energy_profiles.cfm?sid=CA</a><br>
<br>
This document lists good sources from EPRI and elsewhere.<br><br>
- Jed<br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_11066875==.ALT--

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Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 17:39:58 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Second Life (& the Martix)
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On 4/26/07, Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net> wrote:

>  Which brings to mind the continuation and logical progression of other prophetic visions seen in film-art: which are the subject of two remarkable but overlooked cinematic  masterpieces - "Strange Days" and "Brainstorm".

Ackshully, "Snow Crash" frightens me more.  It's almost here.

Terry

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:26:29 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <hd923393df527q2n099ohj95ukkjlfg12q@4ax.com>
References: <462E4829.7010806@gmail.com> <f7eeb3430704241408x81793cdq35bbd734d166a9ac@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175342.00d64bd0@theworld.com> <li2t23lkmuibt182hk27iusphb3betv2dl@4ax.com> <462E9170.1030902@gmail.com> <e3e511d70704241636xc2d0ddbo9a2124eaf1a4376a@mail.gmail.com> <arkv23p9o4cmf6a445e0d0c7d771p1b8sb@4ax.com> <e3e511d70704251530g561e683qdd2dc008e7a8ecb5@mail.gmail.com>
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In reply to  leaking pen's message of Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:30:27 -0700:
Hi,

>except water is still reflective, more reflective than land, and large
>amounts of land surface become water, yes?
[snip]
Not that you would notice. The rise in sea surface level has barely been
millimeters AFAIK, and the effect on reduction of land surface area has =
been
minimal. Besides, this effect is lost in the noise of the tides anyway =
(when the
tide comes in it covers far more land surface than would be affected by =
the
minimal rise in sea level.
The loss of ice cover is far more important, and may be the largest =
contributing
factor to the rapid warming of the polar regions.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

The shrub is a plant.

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Of course, since that increase would increase the tides, and increase
the amount of land underwater both during high and low tide, your
comparison to the tides is completely irrelevant.

On 4/26/07, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> In reply to  leaking pen's message of Wed, 25 Apr 2007 15:30:27 -0700:
> Hi,
>
> >except water is still reflective, more reflective than land, and large
> >amounts of land surface become water, yes?
> [snip]
> Not that you would notice. The rise in sea surface level has barely been
> millimeters AFAIK, and the effect on reduction of land surface area has been
> minimal. Besides, this effect is lost in the noise of the tides anyway (when the
> tide comes in it covers far more land surface than would be affected by the
> minimal rise in sea level.
> The loss of ice cover is far more important, and may be the largest contributing
> factor to the rapid warming of the polar regions.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> The shrub is a plant.
>
>


-- 
That which yields isn't always weak.

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Subject: [Vo]:PHEVs not a good solution
Status: O
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> You can see that in California, where coal is hardly used, PHEV would 
> greatly reduce CO2.

Not "green" enough... and a potential liability.

Without the "bettery" the PHEV is not a good solution anywhere. Lithium 
batteries are still having too many problems to be considered reliable 
and the cost is going up, not down - due to liability issues. After 15 
years of mass production and refinement by the best companies (Sony 
etc), Lithium cells are still catching fire in computers; and given a 
few years of wear and tear, the same will happen in PHEVs. The lithium 
cell is a time bomb.

A far better "Green" solution, available now - and less costly than any 
comparable Plug-in - AND especially desirable in LaLa land, where smog 
is a main concern, is to power the car with CNG (compressed natural gas) 
or LP. Lower pollution and less cost.

BTW - A CNG hybrid would be a 'natural' in more ways than one. Hope 
you're listening Toyota.

This eliminates all the line and battery losses for grid power - and the 
very high expense of lightweight batteries which will likely need 
replacement every 5 years- an enormous hidden liability for the PHEV.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17005861/

Wiki has a CNG entry now:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_natural_gas

A Honda GX powered by natural gas topped an annual list of "greenest" 
2007 model vehicles released in Feb.

Natural gas has historically been less expensive than gasoline, but not 
by much lately -- yet Honda sez that GX buyers are eligible for a $4,000 
federal tax credit, and possibly state credits as well. Buyers of the 
home refueling pump are also eligible for a $1,000 tax credit, but the 
pump itself costs around $3,500; installation is extra but can be done 
by a plumber. There are cheaper "not up to code" alternatives for home 
refueling.

Jones




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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 09:02:35 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  leaking pen's message of Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:30:11 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>Of course, since that increase would increase the tides, and increase
>the amount of land underwater both during high and low tide, your
>comparison to the tides is completely irrelevant.

It's true that the effect adds to both high and low tides, however we are
talking mm's here (at least at present) as opposed to meters for the =
tides
themselves, and the variation in the tides with wind and weather is going=
 to
totally swamp the effect you are talking about. That's why I said it gets=
 lost
in the noise.

Of course, over the longer term (a hundred years?) the effect you mention=
 will
play a role, however I suspect that even then it will not be all that
significant. Furthermore, much of the covered land will be what is =
currently
beach anyway (sand IOW), and sand is also quite reflective. I can't guess
whether covering it with water would increase or decrease the total
reflectivity.
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

The shrub is a plant.

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Apr 26 16:10:12 2007
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Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 16:09:53 -0700
From: "leaking pen" <itsatrap@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases
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Its not noise.  its the normal cycle, and anything, even mm's is
variation on the normal cycle.  In addition, we are talking about the
FUTURE, not right now.  If the ice caps melt off, the sea level will
rise by meters.  No one is saying that small amount the sea levels
have risen NOW is having a cooling effect.

On 4/26/07, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> In reply to  leaking pen's message of Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:30:11 -0700:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >Of course, since that increase would increase the tides, and increase
> >the amount of land underwater both during high and low tide, your
> >comparison to the tides is completely irrelevant.
>
> It's true that the effect adds to both high and low tides, however we are
> talking mm's here (at least at present) as opposed to meters for the tides
> themselves, and the variation in the tides with wind and weather is going to
> totally swamp the effect you are talking about. That's why I said it gets lost
> in the noise.
>
> Of course, over the longer term (a hundred years?) the effect you mention will
> play a role, however I suspect that even then it will not be all that
> significant. Furthermore, much of the covered land will be what is currently
> beach anyway (sand IOW), and sand is also quite reflective. I can't guess
> whether covering it with water would increase or decrease the total
> reflectivity.
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> The shrub is a plant.
>
>


-- 
That which yields isn't always weak.

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Apr 26 16:23:46 2007
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From: "Michel Jullian" <mj@exbang.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:Old but good paper
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"ABSTRACT
Measurements have been performed to check on the Fleischmann-Pons (F-P)
phenomena. They involved 1) measurements of tritium in the cell solution =
and the gas
above it; and 2) determination of the D/Pd ratio by coulometry. =
Enhancement of tritium
in the D2O solution was found in these two open glass cells, as well as =
in another four
cells with Ni-anodes. The largest enhancement factor found was ~50. The =
neutron
measurements were inconclusive."

It seems quite good indeed, the experimental protocol seems very =
rigorous. At first sight the sparged open cell experiment doesn't seem =
costly or complicated. Tritium measurement may be less tricky and more =
indisputable than calorimetry.

Thanks for the great digitizing work. A couple typos in Table 3: 170 =
should be 107, and 10^3 in "1.1 =D7 10^3 moles Pd" should be 10^-3

Michel

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 10:11 PM
Subject: [Vo]:Old but good paper


> See:
>=20
> Adzic, R.R., et al. Tritium Measurements and Deuterium Loading in D2O=20
> Electrolysis With a Palladium Cathode. in The First Annual Conference=20
> on Cold Fusion. 1990. University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake=20
> City, Utah: National Cold Fusion Institute.
>=20
> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/AdzicRRtritiummea.pdf
>=20
> - Jed
>

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Apr 26 18:47:25 2007
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Subject: >>> KILL THE [Vo]: <<<
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 20:47:09 -0500
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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There are more reasons to nix it than keep it.  Not sure what the love
affair with it is all about.  The idiot that couldn't set up a simple email
filter isn't even subscribed to the list anymore.  Why must we continue to
suffer with blank subject lines and the ever changing content?  How is
anyone supposed to follow any given thread past the first post ?????

-j


-----Original Message-----
From: John Berry [mailto:aether22@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 3:56 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Steorn
Public Demonstration


On 4/13/07, Wesley Bruce <wesleybruce@iinet.net.au> wrote:


  PS Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up?

Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. (or fixed)


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16414" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D609470514-26042007>There=20
are more reasons to nix it than keep it.&nbsp; Not sure what the love =
affair=20
with it is all about.&nbsp; The idiot that&nbsp;couldn't set up a simple =
email=20
filter&nbsp;isn't even subscribed to the list anymore.&nbsp; Why must we =

continue to suffer with blank subject lines and the ever changing =
content?&nbsp;=20
How is anyone supposed to follow any given thread past the first post=20
?????</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D609470514-26042007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D609470514-26042007>-j</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> John Berry=20
[mailto:aether22@gmail.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 13, 2007 3:56=20
AM<BR><B>To:</B> vortex-l@eskimo.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Vo]:Re: =
[Vo]:Re:=20
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]: Steorn Public=20
Demonstration<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 4/13/07, =
<B=20
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Wesley Bruce</B> &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:wesleybruce@iinet.net.au">wesleybruce@iinet.net.au</A>&gt;=
=20
wrote:</SPAN><BR>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"><BR>PS=20
  Why are the Re:[Vo] subject line prefixes stacking up?</BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR>Because it's a stupid #@!% script and it should be nixed. (or=20
fixed)<BR></DIV></DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C78844.0ECEB550--

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Apr 26 18:47:26 2007
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Subject: RE: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW
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And cows pump out more methane globally than we do CO2 (my tribute to
Fred)... methane is a way more harmful/reactive GHG (don't let the vegans
find out, they are insufferable already).

-j

-----Original Message-----
From: thomas malloy [mailto:temalloy@usfamily.net]
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2007 9:06 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW


Paul Lowrance wrote:

> thomas malloy wrote:
> > John Berry wrote:
>
> I think what you meant to say is that volcanoes have in the past
> erupted to produce more CO2 than humanity ***for a given duration***.
> Oddly enough you're missing a huge factor, "Duration."  IOW, humanity
> continues to pump out a steady amount of CO2 year after year.


No, that's not what the video says, volcanos pump out 10 times as much
CO2 as  all human sources.



--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! --
http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Apr 26 22:40:39 2007
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From: "Michel Jullian" <mj@exbang.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175342.00d64bd0@theworld.com> <li2t23lkmuibt182hk27iusphb3betv2dl@4ax.com> <462E9170.1030902@gmail.com> <e3e511d70704241636xc2d0ddbo9a2124eaf1a4376a@mail.gmail.com> <arkv23p9o4cmf6a445e0d0c7d771p1b8sb@4ax.com> <e3e511d70704251530g561e683qdd2dc008e7a8ecb5@mail.gmail.com> <hd923393df527q2n099ohj95ukkjlfg12q@4ax.com> <e3e511d70704261530m3c2fce2cs3ae8c3a55e33b7d3@mail.gmail.com> <icb2335bpuhcakr3ekiq4vohoc3bkm8au7@4ax.com> <e3e511d70704261609w131a6f0u983f0442b6867e88@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 02:09:53 +0200
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3cm observed sea level rise per decade(*) is not that small, and that's =
vertical so it may translate to several tens of cms per decade =
horizontally. Now it's not clear whether the effect significantly alters =
the planet's albedo as Robin pointed out. If it does I would think it =
makes it less reflective (dry sand must be more reflective than water), =
so it would amplify the warming.

There are several other warming amplifying effects, such as increased =
atmospheric water vapor concentration (H2O is a GHG too), or CO2 =
outgasing from the oceans due to decreased solubility at higher =
temperature (which can be bad since there is about 50 times more =
dissolved CO2 in the oceans than the total amount in the atmosphere now, =
40000Gt vs 800Gt off memory), all of which are taken into account in =
climate models hopefully.

Michel

(*) page 7 of :
INTERGOVERNMENTAL PANEL ON CLIMATE CHANGE
Climate Change 2007: The Physical Science Basis
Summary for Policymakers
http://www.ipcc.ch/SPM2feb07.pdf
(Absolute must read BTW)

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "leaking pen" <itsatrap@gmail.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 1:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases


> Its not noise.  its the normal cycle, and anything, even mm's is
> variation on the normal cycle.  In addition, we are talking about the
> FUTURE, not right now.  If the ice caps melt off, the sea level will
> rise by meters.  No one is saying that small amount the sea levels
> have risen NOW is having a cooling effect.
>=20
> On 4/26/07, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>> In reply to  leaking pen's message of Thu, 26 Apr 2007 15:30:11 =
-0700:
>> Hi,
>> [snip]
>> >Of course, since that increase would increase the tides, and =
increase
>> >the amount of land underwater both during high and low tide, your
>> >comparison to the tides is completely irrelevant.
>>
>> It's true that the effect adds to both high and low tides, however we =
are
>> talking mm's here (at least at present) as opposed to meters for the =
tides
>> themselves, and the variation in the tides with wind and weather is =
going to
>> totally swamp the effect you are talking about. That's why I said it =
gets lost
>> in the noise.
>>
>> Of course, over the longer term (a hundred years?) the effect you =
mention will
>> play a role, however I suspect that even then it will not be all that
>> significant. Furthermore, much of the covered land will be what is =
currently
>> beach anyway (sand IOW), and sand is also quite reflective. I can't =
guess
>> whether covering it with water would increase or decrease the total
>> reflectivity.
>> Regards,
>>
>> Robin van Spaandonk
>>
>> The shrub is a plant.
>>
>>
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> That which yields isn't always weak.
>

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nick Palmer" <nickp@wynterwood.co.uk>
To: <johnsteck@tetrahelix.com>
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:to John Berry regarding GW


> John Steck wrote:-
> <<And cows pump out more methane globally than we do CO2 (my tribute to
> Fred)... methane is a way more harmful/reactive GHG>> (snip insult to 
> people of higher moral standing than the writer :o))
>
> True'ish but not the whole truth. As methane is "way more harmful/reactive 
> than CO2", it does not build up in the atmosphere, particularly the upper 
> atmosphere where most of the damage is done. It reacts chemically with 
> something - it's gone!
>
>    The bovine methane argument has been one of the lesser known reasons to 
> go vegetarian for many years - the "insufferable" ones have been ahead of 
> the pack for absolutely AGES! Interestingly enough, it is only the 
> domestic cow that creates the large amounts of methane (this needs 
> checking for validity - I only read  about this once). I don't know if 
> this is because of their diet or if this was an unintended consequence of 
> their being bred for greater milk/meat production...
>
> Nick Palmer
>
> P.S. Same thing for water vapour which is also "way more reactive" than 
> CO2 - it doesn't accumulate significantly because it precipitates out as 
> rain or snow and similarly it does not affect the upper atmosphere (any 
> vapour that gets up there changes into ice crystals) 

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Apr 27 06:19:38 2007
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True but it does provide a positive feedback effect, i.e. the hotter it =
gets, the more there is on average, and therefore the hotter it gets.

Its average concentration will only decrease if temperature decreases =
_first_ due to some stronger cooling effect. Such stronger cooling =
effects _do_ exist in nature, or we would never had had ice ages every =
100000 years or so(*), but they are extremely slow in spite of the =
deceivingly abrupt-looking slopes (it takes about 5000 years to plunge =
into an ice age) so we shouldn't count on them to correct the =
comparatively instantaneous presently observed warming trend.

Michel

(*) Have those mechanisms been purely astronomical up to now (long term =
cyclical Earth orbit variations due to interactions with other planets) =
does anyone know?

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Nick Palmer" <nickp@wynterwood.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 11:20 AM
...
> P.S. Same thing for water vapour which is also "way more reactive" =
than=20
> CO2 - it doesn't accumulate significantly because it precipitates out =
as=20
> rain or snow and similarly it does not affect the upper atmosphere =
(any=20
> vapour that gets up there changes into ice crystals)=20

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Message-ID: <a755d6350704270626l470048d2t1aef2153b5367a1c@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 08:26:01 -0500
From: OrionWorks <svj.orionworks@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Vo]:Energy from "pond scum"
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SUBJECT: Energy from "pond scum"

>From The Colorado Springs Business Journal:

http://www.thepbj.com/story.cfm?ID=10545

Hey! Colorado!

-- 
Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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To: vortex-L@eskimo.com, "Michel Jullian" <mj@exbang.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Old but good paper
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Michel Jullian wrote:

>Thanks for the great digitizing work. A couple=20
>typos in Table 3: 170 should be 107 . . .

The original paper says 170. Do you think it is a mistake?


>, and 10^3 in "1.1 =D7 10^3 moles Pd" should be 10^-3

Ah, that's in the footnote below Table 3. The=20
original says 10^3 but that clearly is a mistake. One mole of Pd is 106=
 grams.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases
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Michel Jullian wrote:

>3cm observed sea level rise per decade(*) is not that small, and 
>that's vertical so it may translate to several tens of cms per 
>decade horizontally.

In 2004, the Japanese Meteorological Agency reported that the Inland 
Sea high tides have risen 7 cm in 20 years.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Apr 27 08:40:31 2007
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Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 11:40:07 -0400
To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:PHEVs not a good solution
In-Reply-To: <46312CF0.7070701@pacbell.net>
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Jones Beene wrote:

>>You can see that in California, where coal is hardly used, PHEV 
>>would greatly reduce CO2.
>
>Not "green" enough... and a potential liability.

Why not green enough? As shown in Fig. 3 of Minnesota study, with the 
power generating system in California today, PHEV would reduce CO2 by 
half. With increased use of wind, solar thermal and geothermal, it 
would reduce it from 400 g/mile to 50 g/mile. No other present-day 
system can come close to that, except fully-electric vehicles, and 
they still do not have enough range for many drivers.


>Lithium batteries are still having too many problems to be 
>considered reliable and the cost is going up, not down - due to 
>liability issues. After 15 years of mass production and refinement 
>by the best companies (Sony etc), Lithium cells are still catching 
>fire in computers . . .

Actually, the PHEV developers at HybridCars.com recommend NiMH batteries. See:

http://www.hybridcars.com/plug-in-hybrids/phev-battery-types.html

But in any case, regarding the liability issue, how often do lithium 
batteries burn? Apart from the particular brands that are known to 
have problems and have been recalled, out of each 1 million batteries 
how many burn? Compare this to the number of automobiles that burn 
from gasoline. Cars and trucks often catch on fire; I have seen many, 
but I have never seen a battery burn. There have been many recalls of 
automobile engines for gasoline fire hazards. This is a problem, but 
it not so bad that it precludes the use of gasoline.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Apr 27 09:16:41 2007
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Message-ID: <1ac601c788e7$64fb1d30$3800a8c0@zothan>
From: "Michel Jullian" <mj@exbang.com>
To: <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070426161031.037ae340@mindspring.com> <19fb01c78859$dbddedd0$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070427111828.038e9078@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Old but good paper
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:16:21 +0200
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Yes, the text of the paper, last paragraph of page 6, says Qdischarge =
=3D 107C for that charging voltage -0.35V, "roughly the same" as that =
for -0.3V charging (given as 106.5C at the end of the previous =
paragraph), plus the moles of D would not be right if it was 170 C =
(Qdischarge/molesD =3D Faraday's constant 96500, this is how he finds =
that moles D =3D 1.1 =D7 10^-3 =3D moles Pd, i.e. that the loading ratio =
D/Pd is 1)

Michel

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L@Eskimo.com>; "Michel Jullian" <mj@exbang.com>
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Old but good paper


Michel Jullian wrote:

>Thanks for the great digitizing work. A couple=20
>typos in Table 3: 170 should be 107 . . .

The original paper says 170. Do you think it is a mistake?


>, and 10^3 in "1.1 =D7 10^3 moles Pd" should be 10^-3

Ah, that's in the footnote below Table 3. The=20
original says 10^3 but that clearly is a mistake. One mole of Pd is 106 =
grams.

- Jed

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References: <7.0.1.0.2.20070424171125.038bd810@mindspring.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20070424175342.00d64bd0@theworld.com> <li2t23lkmuibt182hk27iusphb3betv2dl@4ax.com> <462E9170.1030902@gmail.com> <e3e511d70704241636xc2d0ddbo9a2124eaf1a4376a@mail.gmail.com> <arkv23p9o4cmf6a445e0d0c7d771p1b8sb@4ax.com> <e3e511d70704251530g561e683qdd2dc008e7a8ecb5@mail.gmail.com> <hd923393df527q2n099ohj95ukkjlfg12q@4ax.com> <e3e511d70704261530m3c2fce2cs3ae8c3a55e33b7d3@mail.gmail.com> <icb2335bpuhcakr3ekiq4vohoc3bkm8au7@4ax.com> <e3e511d70704261609w131a6f0u983f0442b6867e88@mail.gmail.com> <1a0a01c78860$6d08ce00$3800a8c0@zothan> <7.0.1.0.2.20070427112414.0376d708@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 18:20:56 +0200
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The 3mm/year (3.1 exactly) rise given by the IPCC between 1993 and 2003 =
(so this would be 6.2 cm in 20 years, in fair agreement with the JMA =
figure you quote) results from satellite measurements.

Michel

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
To: <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Atmospheric Gases


> Michel Jullian wrote:
>=20
>>3cm observed sea level rise per decade(*) is not that small, and=20
>>that's vertical so it may translate to several tens of cms per=20
>>decade horizontally.
>=20
> In 2004, the Japanese Meteorological Agency reported that the Inland=20
> Sea high tides have risen 7 cm in 20 years.
>=20
> - Jed
>

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Apr 27 10:18:47 2007
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Subject: [Vo]:Detroit News: Ford tackles climate change
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This may be the usual corporate B.S. but at least it sounds different 
from the B.S. we heard a year ago, or ten years ago.

- Jed

See:

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070424/AUTO01/704240346/1148

April 24, 2007

Ford tackles climate change

CEO Mulally says global warming is real; creates new environmental post

Bryce G. Hoffman / The Detroit News

In one of the strongest statements on climate change ever made by a 
U.S. auto industry executive, Ford Motor Co. CEO Alan Mulally said 
Monday that global warming is real, manmade and caused in part by 
auto emissions.

"The vast majority of data indicates that the temperature has 
increased, and I believe the correlation and the analysis says that 
is mainly because of the greenhouse gases keeping the heat in. You 
can just plot it with the Industrial Revolution and the use of all of 
our resources," he said.

Mulally made the comments during a telephone press conference called 
to announce the promotion of Susan Cischke, Ford's vice president of 
environmental and safety engineering, to the newly created post of 
senior vice president in charge of sustainability, environment and 
safety engineering -- a move Mulally said was meant to underscore the 
importance of this issue to Ford's corporate strategy.

"It's about sustainability, it's about mobility, it's about safety, 
it's about (being) stewards of our environment," he said. "This is 
the biggest agenda we have at Ford. I think it's going to be one of 
the most important considerations to the customers that buy our 
products and services going forward."

Also Monday, General Motors Corp. Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said the 
U.S. government needs to take a Manhattan Project-like approach to 
creating a national energy policy, bringing the best minds in the 
country to bear on the issue of energy sustainability and independence.

Dismissing skeptics

America's automakers have acknowledged that climate change is a 
serious issue, and one their industry must address.

But Mulally's statement was one of the clearest yet that global 
warming is not a natural phenomenon, as some skeptics -- including 
Lutz -- have suggested.

"I'm just gratified that it seems like, in the court of public 
opinion, we have moved to the place where we all are starting to 
appreciate and agree that this really is an issue, and that we all 
want to do something about it," he said.

It was a statement he reiterated Monday afternoon in an e-mail to 
Ford employees, a copy of which was obtained by The Detroit News.

"I firmly believe we are at an inflection point in the world's 
history as it relates to climate change and energy security. The time 
for debating whether climate change is real has past It is time for a 
conversation about what we, as a society, intend to do to address 
it," Mulally wrote.

. . .

Environmentalists cautious

While environmentalists welcomed Mulally's candor on global warming, 
some questioned his choice to lead Ford's environmental efforts.

"We're a little concerned. Sue Cischke has been Ford's public face 
for fighting a lot of things that would help stop global warming," 
said the Sierra Club's Brendan Bell. "Clearly, there is a desire at 
certain levels of Ford's management to promote sustainability. But 
they're much better at creating new positions than new policies."

Ford has drawn fire in the past for reneging on environmental 
promises, like then-CEO Bill Ford Jr.'s pledge to build 250,000 
hybrids annually by 2010. Ford retracted that commitment less than a 
year later.

. . .

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Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 13:40:04 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <hohlraum@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:PHEVs not a good solution
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On 4/27/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Cars and trucks often catch on fire; I have seen many,
> but I have never seen a battery burn.

LOL!  More people have been killed by Ford Pintos than Dell laptops.
For that matter, more people have been killed by Ted Kennedy's car
than laptop batteries.

Actually, many laptops have burned:

http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-18,GGLD:en&q=burning+laptop

http://snipurl.com/1ig08

but, I am not aware of any deaths.

Terry

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Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2007 14:00:24 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:PHEVs not a good solution
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>>Cars and trucks often catch on fire; I have seen many,
>>but I have never seen a battery burn.
>
>LOL!  More people have been killed by Ford Pintos than Dell laptops.

Well, naturally a burning automobile is more dangerous than a burning 
laptop, because there is so much fuel available. On the other hand, 
it would be scary if a laptop were to burst into flames in an 
airplane. (I think they mainly burn while charging, but nowadays you 
can plug in a laptop in-fight on some airplanes -- and on the Amtrak 
train I rode the other day.)

My main point was that a small number of battery types have caused 
most of the fires, and I sure the manufactures will fix the problem. 
Sony had to fork over $257 million to compensate customers and 
replace batteries. That's not the kind of problem management will ignore.

Regarding fuel and fires, last month when I was revising the aircraft 
section of my book, I discussed fuel and range with an old pilot. He 
told me what pilots always say:

'The only time you have too much fuel is when the plane is on fire.'

Pilots have lots of these pithy maxims. I like this one:

'There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.'

- Jed

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Subject: [Vo]:Re: PHEVs not a good solution
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Terry Blanton wrote:
> On 4/27/07, Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com> wrote:

>> Cars and trucks often catch on fire; I have seen many,
>> but I have never seen a battery burn.
> 
> LOL!  More people have been killed by Ford Pintos than Dell laptops.
> For that matter, more people have been killed by Ted Kennedy's car
> than laptop batteries.
> 
> Actually, many laptops have burned:
> 
> http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-18,GGLD:en&q=burning+laptop 

Don't know how/why this thread got sidetracked to "death" - as that was 
not even a remote suggestion, as far as manufacturer's *liability* goes. 
Simple replacement cost is bad enough to kill your budget.

A PHEV in today's economy - without the advent (technology breakthrough) 
of the 'bettery' requires $6,000 to 10,000 worth of lithium or metal 
hydride batteries with a life expectancy of only a few years, in order 
to guarantee a risk free round trip of 60 miles- 100 Klics.

If not for the exorbitant cost and low performance of the most advanced 
batteries - we would have more of these vehicles on the road now. 
Manufacturers are not that stupid, except maybe GM.

It does not even take a fire -certainly not a death- to render that 
investment in batteries negative, in the sense that there is no such 
thing as a "small" lithium leak - and the result will be not only a 
complete replacement of batteries, but high labor and disposal fees.

That is totally *unacceptable* to any non-tree-hugging consumer; and 
given our experience with laptops - the high recurrent replacement cost, 
with or without a leak/fire/death is certain to be an overriding issue 
with pug-ins using present day technology.

Once again - under any possible circumstances *using present day 
technology* the lowest possible CO2 burden - and the reason that the 
2007 Green Prize for automotive was awarded to the Honda CNG car - is 
obvious. You can buy this vehicle now. And - when Honda and Toyota 
"hybridize" the CNG powered ICE, then more bad news for the PHEV - even 
if an EEStor "bettery' is in there by then, due to the much higher cost, 
lower trip length, and higher (but shifted from tail-pipe to smokestack) 
CO2.

Best of all environmentally - of course- is the *carbon neutral* 
biodiesel fueled hybrid, and that is only months away from introduction 
- actually available now in some localities (there are a few dozen 
biodiesel stations nationwide) according to one web-site (and Willie 
Nelson).

Jones

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-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:JedRothwell@mindspring.com] 
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 2:00 PM
To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:PHEVs not a good solution

Here's another good one Jed:

It is better to be on the ground wishing you were flying, than to be flying
and wishing you were on the ground.

Jeff



He told me what pilots always say:

'The only time you have too much fuel is when the plane is on fire.'

Pilots have lots of these pithy maxims. I like this one:

'There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.'

- Jed


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Subject: [Vo]:Re: PHEVs not a good solution
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The next big 'green thing' ??

Wow. Just found this: China is ready to import a 'green cherry' of a=20
vehicle: the Chery A3 ISG diesel hybrid, unveiled at Shanghai motor=20
show. Looks decent, and it seems to have everything that the 'green'=20
crowd wants, including less sticker-shock.

http://www.globalautoindex.com/news.plt?no=3D1829

The hybrid vehicle combines an 'independently developed' [not sure=20
independence is a plus for them] 1.3-liter diesel engine with a 30kW=20
permanent magnet synchronous motor and a CVT - a continuously variable=20
transmission which is an efficiency standard that even the Prius lacks.=20
It will be able to burn biodiesel without alteration and is said to=20
significantly lower cost than the Prius, but that has not yet been=20
announced.

**If only** - this car arrives without the bugs of first-time auto=20
introductions, it should have a ready market. One of the best things=20
about the Prius is the Toyota reputation. The Chery company OTOH is a=20
youngster - founded in 1997 and sold 305,000 vehicles in 2006 and=20
estimates sales of 392,000 in 2007. It has subsequently built plants in=20
Iran, Russia and Malaysia with one of its models - the Chery QQ -=20
selling for only $5400. General Motors has been in talks in Shanghai=20
with the company. They would be real smart to be the importer.

It has a dual-clutch parallel diesel strong hybrid design. When the=20
vehicle is stopped, the system will enter =93auto idle stop=94 mode and t=
he=20
engine will stop if the batteries are fully charged; when the vehicle is =

started, the electric motor will provide the drive power; then when=20
necessary, the diesel engine will be started rapidly and the vehicle=20
will enter into parallel type combined torque drive mode; when the=20
vehicle is decelerated or braked, the ISG motor operate to recover some=20
of the lost energy.

It is a fabulous desig --- ON PAPER.

Jones


From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Apr 27 13:06:34 2007
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: PHEVs not a good solution
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Jones Beene wrote:

>Wow. Just found this: China is ready to import a 'green cherry' of a 
>vehicle: the Chery A3 ISG diesel hybrid, unveiled at Shanghai motor 
>show. Looks decent, and it seems to have everything that the 'green' 
>crowd wants, including less sticker-shock.
>
>http://www.globalautoindex.com/news.plt?no=1829

This is supposed to use "3.01 l per 100 km." That's 33.2 km/l, or 78 
mpg. That's pretty good, especially for a starting product. Next 
year's Prius is rumored to be over 100 mpg. They have a headstart. I 
predict that by the time GM tries to make these things Toyota and 
Honda will be well over 100 mpg, even without a plug-in option.

- Jed

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On 4/27/07, Jones Beene wrote:

> The next big 'green thing' ??
>
> Wow. Just found this: China is ready to import a 'green cherry' of a
> vehicle: the Chery A3 ISG diesel hybrid, unveiled at Shanghai motor
> show. Looks decent, and it seems to have everything that the 'green'
> crowd wants, including less sticker-shock.
>
> http://www.globalautoindex.com/news.plt?no=1829
>

Sleek & sexy looking design lines.

That always helps.

-- 
Regards
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com

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Subject: [Vo]:Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday April 27, 2007
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-----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki

>From: What's New <whatsnew@BOBPARK.ORG>
>Sent: Apr 27, 2007 2:27 PM
To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday April 27, 2007

WHAT=E2=80=99S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 27 Apr 07   Washington, DC=20

1. THE HABITABLE ZONE: THE GOOD NEWS IS THEY=E2=80=99RE NOT COMING HERE.  H=
umans,=20
fragile self-replicating chemical factories, are trapped on a tiny planet=
=20
for a few dozen orbits about an undistinguished star among countless other=
=20
stars in one of billions of galaxies.  And yet, these insignificant specks=
=20
have the audacity to imagine they can figure it all out - and maybe they=20
can.  The most compelling scientific quest is to find life to which=20
Earthlings are not related.  The first great discovery of this Century was=
=20
to confirm that other stars have planets - lots of them.  This week=20
European astronomers found a planet in the habitable zone of Gliese 581, a=
=20
red dwarf in the constellation Libra.  The public was thrilled.  We can=20
learn a lot from here, and it=E2=80=99s going to be exciting. Each year I a=
sk my=20
class of freshman physics majors if they think humans will visit another=20
star someday.  Most say yes, so we take a few minutes of each class to=20
plan the mission.  What=E2=80=99s the closest star?  How long are you prepa=
red to=20
travel?  How big will the spaceship have to be?  How will you pass the=20
time?  Anyway, we=E2=80=99ll be able to travel much faster some day, so may=
be 50=20
years.  There=E2=80=99s always one that insists there=E2=80=99s gotta be a =
basketball=20
court.  Near the end of the semester they calculate the kinetic energy of=
=20
the spacecraft to make the trip in 50 years.  Hmmm, the velocity is=20
squared.  Maybe, they conclude, we could just find a way to exchange e-mail=
s.

2. WARHEADS: THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT NUCLEAR STOCKPILES ARE AGING.  It was=20
just five years ago that the Nuclear Posture Review, was leaked=20
http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN02/wn031502.html .  It was a Pentagon=20
report calling for development of a new class of small nuclear weapons to=
=20
blur the distinction between nuclear and conventional weapons.  Public=20
exposure killed the plan.  But Dr. Strangelove never gives up.  The Bush ad=
ministration is again pushing for a new generation of nuclear weapons; this=
 time it=E2=80=99s the Reliable Replacement Warhead, an idea that=E2=80=99s=
 been around for 30 years.  In fact, having spent billions on a Science-Bas=
ed Stockpile Stewardship Program, there=E2=80=99s no need for the RRW. U.S.=
 warheads=20
will retain their capability for another century.

3. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED: IRAQ NO LONGER POSES A NUCLEAR THREAT.    We=20
invaded Iraq because of their weapons of mass destruction.  It worked=20
perfectly.  Iraq hasn=E2=80=99t had a nuclear weapon since.  But now we lea=
rn that=20
there=E2=80=99s a nuclear threat brewing across the border in Iran. =20
Unfortunately, our troops are sort of tied up.  We need more missile=20
defense sites like the ones we built in Alaska and California to deal with=
=20
the missile threat from North Korea.  Of course that missile defense is=20
still being tested and we don=E2=80=99t actually turn it on, but we think w=
e=20
could.  It worked anyway.  North Korea still doesn=E2=80=99t have a missile=
, or a=20
warhead. To take care of the Iran threat we want to install missile=20
defenses in Eastern Europe like the one that doesn=E2=80=99t work in Alaska=
.
=09

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
University of Maryland, but they should be.
---
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Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 11:04:20 +1000
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:Fw: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday April 27, 2007
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Akira Kawasaki wrote:

>-----Forwarded Message-----from Akira Kawasaki
>
>  
>
>>From: What's New <whatsnew@BOBPARK.ORG>
>>Sent: Apr 27, 2007 2:27 PM
>>    
>>
>To: BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
>Subject: [BOBPARKS-WHATSNEW] What's New Friday April 27, 2007
>
>WHATS NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 27 Apr 07   Washington, DC 
>
>1. THE HABITABLE ZONE: THE GOOD NEWS IS THEYRE NOT COMING HERE.  Humans, 
>fragile self-replicating chemical factories, are trapped on a tiny planet 
>for a few dozen orbits about an undistinguished star among countless other 
>stars in one of billions of galaxies.  And yet, these insignificant specks 
>have the audacity to imagine they can figure it all out - and maybe they 
>can.  The most compelling scientific quest is to find life to which 
>Earthlings are not related.  The first great discovery of this Century was 
>to confirm that other stars have planets - lots of them.  This week 
>European astronomers found a planet in the habitable zone of Gliese 581, a 
>red dwarf in the constellation Libra.  The public was thrilled.  We can 
>learn a lot from here, and its going to be exciting. Each year I ask my 
>class of freshman physics majors if they think humans will visit another 
>star someday.  Most say yes, so we take a few minutes of each class to 
>plan the mission.  Whats the closest star?  How long are you prepared to 
>travel?  How big will the spaceship have to be?  How will you pass the 
>time?  Anyway, well be able to travel much faster some day, so maybe 50 
>years.  Theres always one that insists theres gotta be a basketball 
>court.  Near the end of the semester they calculate the kinetic energy of 
>the spacecraft to make the trip in 50 years.  Hmmm, the velocity is 
>squared.  Maybe, they conclude, we could just find a way to exchange e-mails.
>
>2. WARHEADS: THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT NUCLEAR STOCKPILES ARE AGING.  It was 
>just five years ago that the Nuclear Posture Review, was leaked 
>http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN02/wn031502.html .  It was a Pentagon 
>report calling for development of a new class of small nuclear weapons to 
>blur the distinction between nuclear and conventional weapons.  Public 
>exposure killed the plan.  But Dr. Strangelove never gives up.  The Bush administration is again pushing for a new generation of nuclear weapons; this time its the Reliable Replacement Warhead, an idea thats been around for 30 years.  In fact, having spent billions on a Science-Based Stockpile Stewardship Program, theres no need for the RRW. U.S. warheads 
>will retain their capability for another century.
>
>3. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED: IRAQ NO LONGER POSES A NUCLEAR THREAT.    We 
>invaded Iraq because of their weapons of mass destruction.  It worked 
>perfectly.  Iraq hasnt had a nuclear weapon since.  But now we learn that 
>theres a nuclear threat brewing across the border in Iran.  
>Unfortunately, our troops are sort of tied up.  We need more missile 
>defense sites like the ones we built in Alaska and California to deal with 
>the missile threat from North Korea.  Of course that missile defense is 
>still being tested and we dont actually turn it on, but we think we 
>could.  It worked anyway.  North Korea still doesnt have a missile, or a 
>warhead. To take care of the Iran threat we want to install missile 
>defenses in Eastern Europe like the one that doesnt work in Alaska.
>	
>
>THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
>Opinions are the author's and not necessarily shared by the
>University of Maryland, but they should be.
>---
>Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.bobpark.org
>What's New is moving to a different listserver and our
>subscription process has changed. To change your subscription
>status please visit this link:
>      http://listserv.umd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=bobparks-whatsnew&A=1
>
>  
>
Bobs going all political lol. I knew all this stuff years ago. Its very 
banal, even the extrasolar planet and its parameters are unsurprising. 
The old Guy is getting predictable.
I think we will be in a shooting war with Iran in 3-4 months and a mates 
going to the region. Ouch.
Iran has the blue prints of the Pakistan nukes according to the Paki 
nuke maker. Its a tested bomb so they need only the fissile material. 
The 12th Imam legends say that the Sunni cities will burn. No mention of 
Israel. The targets are Baghdad, Riyadh and the Sunni triangle cities. A 
shot at Israel might be made to confuse things. Making the destruction 
of Irans other targets look like an Israeli retaliation.

Israel is a small target and the Iranian missiles are not accurate. A 
shot at Israel could hit Jordan, the West bank or Gaza. The fall out 
will get to Palestinian territory anyway. Israelis have shelters and 
training the Palestinians don't. If Israel is hit it could spell the end 
or extinction of Palestine with no Israeli response. The population 
density of Israel is such that there are no more than 2 million Jews in 
any possible target area. Iran cant target Jerusalem, Mecca or Medina.


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Subject: [Vo]:Nice little demo
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Short Video demonstrating a small amount of "free" ... well, if not 
energy then free-voltage, submitted by "vortexentity"

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=vortexentity

Admittedly, a voltage potential created by magnetic polarization is not 
necessarily "free energy" yet this demo seems like it could be taken 
further...

...as in" the All American solution to every impediment:

**Super-Size-it**

Nice work, Michael

Jones

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Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 07:21:01 -0700
From: Paul Lowrance <energymover@gmail.com>
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Tonight, Sat 04/28/2007  Physicist Sean Carroll will explore the Big Bang, 
quantum gravity, singularities, black holes, and other theories about the 
universe we live in.


Regards,
Paul Lowrance

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Apr 28 08:59:11 2007
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Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 08:58:53 -0700
From: Mark S Bilk <mark@cosmicpenguin.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Nice little demo
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I don't think it's magnetic -- it's a battery with him as the 
electrolyte.  But he's only generating 10 microamps because
his palms aren't sweaty enough.  Give him some porn to look at
and the output should go way up.  (Anybody who thinks of 
frictional electricity at this point has a dirty mind!)

  Mark

On Sat, Apr 28, 2007 at 07:00:30AM -0700, Jones Beene wrote:
>Short Video demonstrating a small amount of "free" ... well, if not 
>energy then free-voltage, submitted by "vortexentity"
>
>http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=vortexentity
>
>Admittedly, a voltage potential created by magnetic polarization is not 
>necessarily "free energy" yet this demo seems like it could be taken 
>further...
>
>...as in" the All American solution to every impediment:
>
>**Super-Size-it**
>
>Nice work, Michael
>
>Jones

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Apr 28 10:20:20 2007
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From: "Dean McGowan" <dean_mcgowan@hotmail.com>
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Subject: RE: [Vo]:C2C guest tonight
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<html><div style='background-color:'><P>It's a night in then ;)<BR><BR></P><BR>
<DIV>
<P>Dean<BR><BR></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #a0c6e5 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 11px; FONT-FAMILY: tahoma,sans-serif">
<HR color=#a0c6e5 SIZE=1>
From: <I>Paul Lowrance &lt;energymover@gmail.com&gt;</I><BR>Reply-To: <I>vortex-l@eskimo.com</I><BR>To: <I>vortex-l@eskimo.com</I><BR>Subject: <I>[Vo]:C2C guest tonight</I><BR>Date: <I>Sat, 28 Apr 2007 07:21:01 -0700</I><BR>Tonight, Sat 04/28/2007 Physicist Sean Carroll will explore the Big Bang, quantum gravity, singularities, black holes, and other theories about the universe we live in.<BR><BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Paul Lowrance<BR><BR></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></div></html>

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Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 10:57:03 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
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oops --- sent the wrong reference:

should be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=413sLpBzAB8



Mark S Bilk wrote:
> I don't think it's magnetic -- it's a battery with him as the 
> electrolyte.  But he's only generating 10 microamps because
> his palms aren't sweaty enough.  Give him some porn to look at
> and the output should go way up.  (Anybody who thinks of 
> frictional electricity at this point has a dirty mind!)
> 
>   Mark
> 
> On Sat, Apr 28, 2007 at 07:00:30AM -0700, Jones Beene wrote:
>> Short Video demonstrating a small amount of "free" ... well, if not 
>> energy then free-voltage, submitted by "vortexentity"
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=vortexentity
>>
>> Admittedly, a voltage potential created by magnetic polarization is not 
>> necessarily "free energy" yet this demo seems like it could be taken 
>> further...
>>
>> ...as in" the All American solution to every impediment:
>>
>> **Super-Size-it**
>>
>> Nice work, Michael
>>
>> Jones
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Apr 28 12:25:24 2007
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From: Mark S Bilk <mark@cosmicpenguin.com>
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Subject: Re: [Vo]:Nice little demo
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On Sat, Apr 28, 2007 at 10:57:03AM -0700, Jones Beene wrote:

>>>Admittedly, a voltage potential created by magnetic polarization is not 
>>>necessarily "free energy" yet this demo seems like it could be taken 
>>>further...

>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=413sLpBzAB8

Except for the digital readout, that innocent-looking little 
voltmeter could be mistaken for the old galvanometer-type  
multimeter of 50 years ago, but it's actually an FET version 
of what used to be called a VTVM - vacuum-tube voltmeter.  
In other words, it has an extremely high input resistance, 
many megohms.  My old Heathkit V-7A VTVM had 10M ohm and would 
hit the stops if I ran a comb through my hair and waved it near 
the voltage probe.

So if the voltmeter in the demo has an input resistance of 
10 M ohms (it may be much higher), the capacitor is putting 
out about 1 nanoamp at 10 millivolt, which is ten trillionths 
of a watt (10^-11).

This is the second video in a pair.  Clicking on the "more from 
this user" link brings a list with the first one:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iGEsVaIftk

One of the comments to it says:

 "I have a NEC memory cap 5.5V 0.047F and it gives about 16mV 
  all the time without any magnets. Even after a long time of 
  shorting it builds the 16mV in 2 minutes.  It is a chemical 
  reaction in the cap because it is ELECTROLYTIC CAPACITOR!!!"

Controlled experiments by a non-believer in "scalar waves" 
would have to be done on this system to prove that the 
extremely tiny current was the result of anything but, again,
an electrolytic cell, a battery, this one much weaker than
the sweaty-palm unit.  

For real power you can stick a zinc and a copper strip into 
a lemon.  A few of those in series should be able to operate 
an efficient transistor radio with earphones.

Then there's the former pride of England, the Royal Battery
of Sir Humphry Davy and Michael Faraday.  Comprised of 
two hundred zinc and copper disks with (IIRC) salt water 
soaked blotter paper in between, it could give one quite 
a jolt.  Great fun at parties for the nobility.

  Mark

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Hi Mark

> This is the second video in a pair.  Clicking on the "more from 
> this user" link brings a list with the first one:
> 
>   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iGEsVaIftk
> 
> One of the comments to it says:
> 
>  "I have a NEC memory cap 5.5V 0.047F and it gives about 16mV 
>   all the time without any magnets. Even after a long time of 
>   shorting it builds the 16mV in 2 minutes.  It is a chemical 
>   reaction in the cap because it is ELECTROLYTIC CAPACITOR!!!"


Yes. Electrolytic caps - and especially caps which are near to failure 
are known to operate for extended periods as chemical batteries.

I'm pretty sure this was what was happening in the "Mike Motor" variant 
of the Bedini-Cole window motor - where he had a large (~1 F.) old 
electrolytic, probably nearing failure... (and no one else could 
duplicate it) ---

--- but also would be willing to bet that a new cap would not never 
register in ~10 mV range.

... meaning that this begs for replication with new parts.

At any rate, if I had a few hundred matched magnets and new caps - it 
would be interesting to see if something in the form of a stacked array 
would offer results which are a little more unequivocal than if a few mV 
or picowatts which may have shown up ... but like you, I am skeptical of 
that.

What if it took a few thousand such cap+Neos units (with a cost of 
several thou$and) to get to an unequivocal microwatt? Does anyone think 
that the beloved prize-offering genius known as "Randi" would fork over 
the megabucks he has claimed to give, if such a totally impractical 
device did show even tiny but unequivocal OU?

... at least for Randi it would be "put up or shut up"

Jones

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Mark wrote,

>For real power you can stick a zinc and a copper strip into
>a lemon.  A few of those in series should be able to operate
>an efficient transistor radio with earphones.

Howdy Mark and Jones,

Just as much fun is to have an old timey dentist fill some teeth with a 
combo mercury metal filling along side a gold filling.. On occasion the 
event could pickup a radio signal. People reported they could hear music.. 
but..nobody would believe.

Our electrical and electronics controls systems shop builds and installs 
switchgear and systems. A really fun experince is to troubleshoot grounding 
problems insider a large plant.. fun stuff and as Jones says.." the 
trickster" is at work. When you have every power source disconnected.. and 
.. put a meter on the ground and see full voltage.. make you wonder if that 
" trickster" is looking over your shoulder.

Indian tribes in the old west had a special regard for coyotes because they 
are ventriliquists.. they called them " trickster coyotes". A white albino 
coyote.. a rare animal was extremely valuable. moreso than an albino 
buffalo.


Richard

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Subject: [Vo]:OT: Vo & the "gift" economy
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Are you familiar with the concept of the "gift economy"? You are 
probably an active part of it, knowingly or unknowingly. Here is a 
rambling regifting, sadly of little economic value.

The gift economy is one of those "pregnant" insights which may itself 
provide a kind of 'salvation' to Western society in ways in which 
religion has largely failed to do. Wiki now has an entry for this once 
arcane concept, which entry may be a little out of focus, but decent 
enough to paraphrase:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy

Typically, a gift economy can be epitomized by various non-governmental 
organizations and benevolent trusts, such as the Ford Foundation etc., 
and is the end-result of moral indoctrination or religious teaching 
interacting head-on with what can best be described as a lifetime of 
wealth-accumulation (greed). But it can also be found in a more modern 
and individual form and through ongoing "random act of kindness" even 
when the act itself consists mostly of ... well... transitory bits of 
"word salad" cast out into cyberspace.

And more specifically, for readers here: the "gift" is when talented 
individuals like Jed Rothwell and Ed Storms with LENR/CANR.org, or 
Horace Heffner with his brilliant insights, for instance, or Fred 
Sparber and many former contributors - give freely of their time and 
experience to promote what they consider to be be important goals to 
society for energy independence, and Bill Beaty, who makes the forum 
possible. Their sacrifices, on someone's balance sheet, may be greater 
in terms of personal-expenditure than old-Henry's last-minute-largess.

Karma goes by many names, invented for the peace-of-mind of those who 
seek another chance. The gift economy happens within a free-market 
subculture grounded in moral dogma and expectations of some kind of 
continuance-mythology. The dogma emphasizes social, religious or 
intangible rewards for generosity: call it karma, loyalty, redemption or 
whatever. In previous generations, this gift has been delayed till a 
wealthy benefactor is near death, yet the personal model of Albert 
Schweitzer or Mother Theressa have been equally inspiring.

Both Jews and Christians are noted for this type of monetary generosity, 
while Roman Catholic nuns and priests often give most in terms of 
personal-sacrifice. In terms of specific identifiable ethnicity, 
ironically: Scottish Protestants and European Jews, both groups being 
among the most frugal in life - are often the most generous and 
beneficent to society (at the expense of family and relatives) on death. 
But there are newer and constantly changing forms of ongoing gifts, 
which serve to mitigate the general failure of government and organized 
religion to accomplish what they should.

The major difference between Communism and Capitalism is a contentious
subject, amenable to superficial interpretation, especially when
religion is brought into the fray. The true moral imperative encompassed
within Marxism/socialism can be seen as a great embarrassment to an 
avowed meme-enemy- the religious-right in the USA. But the lack of true 
democracy or equality in Communism is an equal or greater embarrassment 
to the left - as is the irrepressible desire to accumulate wealth. The 
Limo-Liberal is now cliche, no?  Mao and Stalin probably lived more 
extravagant lifestyles than many Wall Street Greed Merchants.

In truth, religion cannot be excluded from any analysis, and no "alien" 
observer of world  government (i.e. an objective and dispassionate 
viewer) would have the least bit of difficulty in seeing through the 
layers of dogma, and seeing the glaring crux of the enigma: i.e. that 
"Christian morality" is far closer on paper to Marxism than to 
Capitalism - i.e. in principle but not necessarily in actuality. Lest we 
forget (as is convenient to do in the USA) Christ did teach the value of 
*poverty* and sharing of wealth - not wealth accumulation, as the goal 
of each individual seeking salvation. This is a fact that is universally 
ignored in almost every American Church, regardless of denomination.

Just one more impetus for change towards a NWO (new world order). BTW - 
there will always be a NWO on the horizon - no matter what you call it. 
It is part of evolution. What it will consist of however - can never be 
decided or predicted very far in advance (even by the Bilderberg). The 
recent and dramatic shift in the USA from NeoCon to NeoLib is 
demonstrating that now. What goes around, comes around.

One solution is to institutionalize and encourage non-profit giving to 
an even higher level, and to transfer some government functions there - 
even if this involves problems with "separation of church and state". 
There are ways to do this if you can cut through the dogma on both sides 
of the argument. We have this old "great society" relic still in place:

http://www.peacecorps.gov/

yup ... the Peace Corps. I'm not sure that Bush/Cheney are even aware 
that it is still around, since they have been favoring funding for a 
"War Corps" by a ratio of about a billion to one. Nice lesson there for 
our kids. But once we are finally able to get out of a needless and 
wasteful war - why not start shifting a big part of that waste from war 
to peace?

In a 'market' economy: capitalism, the highest status belongs to those
who have acquired the most wealth - and the laws tend to reflect and
institutionalize this goal: (the Gordon Gekko mentality: "greed is 
good"). But it is easy to change slightly this focus of legal protection 
to only those estates and entities which are already committed to 
sharing and becoming an eventual active part of the gift economy.

Communism, on the other hand, despite being atheistic in general, tries
to institutionalize what are in effect - the teachings of Jesus as
reinterpreted by Marx -- insofar as societal "needs" are to be
satisfied, independent of work, and work is to be expended, independent
of need, for the common good.

Neither of these two solutions has been ideal. Capitalism works (to some
degree by default) and Communism, which is, in effect, the same as
enforced-Christianity-without-religion, fails, due more so to its clumsy
implementation, perhaps, than to its idealism. Go figure. Funny - and 
probably doubly ironic that the only place this credo thrives today is 
on the Israeli Kibbutz - which denies both Marx and Christ!

Enter the default solution to the moral dilemma - the Gift Economy in 
Capitalism. It is kind of an oxymoron like the "benevolent dictator" ...

Side note: For the "benevolent dictatorship" form of government, there 
actually exists a convincing argument to the effect that it is superior 
to Democracy, due to much higher efficiency - but only when the "power 
corrupts" factor can be mitigated, which is extremely rare in practice, 
but may become less a problem in the future if a greater oversight is 
allowed to be provided by some form of AI - artificial intelligence..

But what is most important transactionally, is a legislatively-boosted 
gift economy in which the gifts must always "move" quickly. They are 
like "currency" and need high turnover. This marvelous idea was recently 
popularized by the terrific little movie (if you can tolerate an 
occasional dose of super-sized-sap) called "Pay it Forward," and also by 
that ubiquitous and even sappier bumper sticker: Commit Random Acts of 
Kindness & Senseless Beauty. BTW there is even a foundation for 
promoting this idea:

http://www.actsofkindness.org/

Every gift is its own reward in a way, but that reward can be multiplied 
  when the gift is passed along to others - like a chain reaction. And 
many small kindnesses are gifts. It does not require money or wealth. An 
inspiring story is a gift. An insightful posting is a gift (this one may 
be a burden due to length). Blogs are gifts (sometime). Ideas, and 
insights, and life-experience teachings, alternative POV and specialized 
counseling are all gifts.

If there is one great and overlooked thing about the www as an 
invaluable facilitating-phenomenon to society as a whole, in the age of 
information -- it is in this ability: being able to quickly "regift" and 
rapidly disseminate the most valuable commodity at all: human insight.

Jones

Of course, that particular www-gift: insight - comes with the downside 
price - in that much of the info-flux is not very insightful at all 
often self-serving or even deliberate disinfo or spam ... and that is 
where the individual's "bogosity filter" must be always be activated and 
on alert!




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Subject: Re: [Vo]:OT: Vo & the "gift" economy
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Capitalism: a form of social co-operation for the sake of
universal economic competition.

Socialism: a form of social competition for the sake of
universal economic co-operation.

Harry

On 29/4/2007 12:14 PM, Jones Beene wrote:
<snip>
> 
> The major difference between Communism and Capitalism is a contentious
> subject, amenable to superficial interpretation, especially when
> religion is brought into the fray. The true moral imperative encompassed
> within Marxism/socialism can be seen as a great embarrassment to an
> avowed meme-enemy- the religious-right in the USA. But the lack of true
> democracy or equality in Communism is an equal or greater embarrassment
> to the left - as is the irrepressible desire to accumulate wealth. The
> Limo-Liberal is now cliche, no?  Mao and Stalin probably lived more
> extravagant lifestyles than many Wall Street Greed Merchants.
<snip>

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Subject: [Vo]:BBC Horizon Bubble fusion show Feb 15, 2005
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Anybody have a copy of this video?


Thanks,

Steve 

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Hey Jones.

Wez resemble those remarks. Pure capitalism is best described by the popular 
game " Monolopy" which iis designed to end with a single winner. Two things 
happen when the winner emerges.. he winds up with a table full of worthless 
paper money., everybody winds up losers, broke  and the winner takes a 
bankruptcy to avoid having  to put the game back in the box, including all 
the houses. Communisn is designed for all to wind up the winner.in defiance 
of the laws of human nature thus  bringing out the worse in man. Capitalism 
brings out both the worse and best. All of which proves that man is not 
mentally designed to be governed.

The parable of the "Good Samaritan" holds a wisdom for those so inclined to 
pursue charity.. (paraphrased for new California lifestyles)..
 Regular traveler driving his Hummer down the Jericho freeway spots a person 
laying on the embankment.. stops, looks and notices the person has been 
beatened and robbed and.. in need of help..He loads the injured and takes 
him to the Holiday Inn, Jericho. Recognizing the traveler, the desk clerk 
accepts the traveler's Visa card and asks how many nights stay. The traveler 
studies the injured man and figures a couple nights sleep and food ought do 
it.. and tells the clerk if it takes a couple days longer , bill my card. 
The desk clerk is not in the business of charity so when the injured man has 
been treated, fed, rested and up.. out the door he goes..
Definitely not your Katrina storm victim treatment theology but the tale 
does capture the essense of the correct rebuking of "do gooders" that insist 
we must take on the woes of the world when commom sense states the poor will 
always be with us if for no other reason than the price of dope in Berkeley. 
God works in spite of religion and FEMA.

Richard 

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Subject: [Vo]:Cavitation Weapon
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United States Patent  7,206,257
Meng  April 17, 2007

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acoustic remote caviation as a destruction device


Abstract
A method is disclosed of generating a predetermined field of
cavitation around a remote target in an underwater environment. The
method includes the steps of identifying a remote target location,
generating at least two acoustic beams, each at a high power output,
from an underwater acoustic source, and controlling the generated
acoustic beams to intersect with each other at the remote target
location and thereby create a destructive cavitation field at the
intersection of the beams. The acoustic source and target can be
located in unconfined underwater space and at a distance of at least
100 m apart.
