From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  1 01:27:08 2002
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From: "Doug Marett" <doug.marett sympatico.ca>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0206070822030.10875-100000 eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly 
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 12:18:58 -0400
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William Beaty wrote:

> If the enclosures are sealed, why would metal be better than wood?

    A good point. Perhaps I didn't mention - the enclosures were open on one
side so that a reading could be taken from the meter. In another experiment
that I performed, I found that a metal mesh around the counter was also
sufficient to block out about 80% of the ions, whether grounded or not.
Thus, even with partial airflow through the mesh, metal is quite good at
blocking ion mobility.

> > Although Reich considered the possibility that the effect was due to air
> > ions, he concluded that it was not, since he found that a fan did not
> > affect the rate of discharge of his electroscope.
>
> Huh?   Why would he think that a fan would have any effect?  (Analogy: the
> conductivity of water doesn't change just because the water is flowing.)

    I would explain it by the fact that large ions are often associated with
particles in the air, and as such are more likely to collide with the
electroscope or ion counter if they are blown around, kind of like billiard
balls.

Interestingly, (and I have tried this) if you put charged H.V. plates on
either side of the ion counter, the ion level detected drops to virtually
zero. This is because the ions are all attracted to either the positive or
negative plate and thus are completely screened from the counter.

> Great test!
>
> One last observation:  At sea level the air ions will be FAR lower than in
> mountainous country.   Background radiation is the issue.  If a geiger
> counter is clicking like mad from cosmic rays, then the whole environment
> is "clicking" too ( the air is being ionized.)    At sea level, a geiger
> counter clicks very slowly, but just a few thousand feet of elevation
> makes a big difference.
>
> The traditional explanation for electroscope-discharge is that cosmic rays
> ionize the surrounding air.  But if the weather affects the ion count, and
> if the natural radiation is quite low at sea level, then the
> electroscope-discharge effect would be caused more by weather-ions at
> locations which aren't up in the mountains.

That makes sense. Thanks for the compliment!

Doug Marett M.Sc.






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  1 07:35:52 2002
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Of course they intend to weaponize:

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28473

Anti-gravity project to mean free energy?
Secret experiments at Boeing could revolutionize flight, electricity, 
defense
Posted: July 31, 2002
11:29 p.m. Eastern


© 2002 WorldNetDaily.com

Secret anti-gravity experiments that could revolutionize the 
conventional aerospace industry and lead to "free energy" are underway 
in Seattle, according to Jane's Defense Weekly.

Boeing , the world's largest aircraft manufacturer, is said to 
acknowledge work on projects that could overturn a century of propulsion 
technology if the science underpinning them can be engineered into hardware.

A briefing document obtained by Jane's sets out what Boeing believes to 
be at stake.

"If gravity modification is real," the brief says, "it will alter the 
entire aerospace business."

The project at Boeing's Phantom Works advanced research and development 
facility is now trying to solicit the services of a Russian scientist 
who claims to have developed anti-gravity devices in Russia and Finland.

The effort to work with that scientist, Dr. Evgeny Podkletnov, has its 
own code name of "GRASP," for Gravity Research for Advanced Space 
Propulsion, the report says.

GRASP's objective is to explore propellentless propulsion, determine the 
validity of Podkletnov's work and "examine possible uses for such a 
technology."

Boeing says such uses could include space-launch systems, artificial 
gravity on spacecraft, aircraft propulsion and electricity generation 
without fuel - so-called "free energy."

Additionally, there's a military potential as Podkletnov's work could be 
engineered into a stunning new weapon, capable of vaporizing objects 
moving at high speed.

The GRASP paper focuses on Podkletnov's claims that his experiments 
using a device called an "impulse gravity generator" are capable of 
producing a beam of gravity-like energy that can exert an instantaneous 
force of 1,000-G on any object.

Podkletnov maintains a Russian lab has already demonstrated the 
4-inch-wide beam's ability to repel objects a kilometer away, with 
negligible power loss at distances of up to 200 kilometers.

Observers say such a device could be adapted for use as an 
anti-satellite weapon or ballistic-missile shield. Podkletnov says any 
object placed above his rapidly spinning superconducting apparatus lost 
up to two percent of its weight.

Although Podkletnov was vilified by traditionalists who claimed 
gravity-shielding was impossible under the known laws of physics, NASA 
attempted to replicate his work in the mid-1990s. The attempt failed, 
reports Jane's, as the space agency lacked Podkletnov's unique formula. 
However, NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama is slated to 
conduct a second round of experiments using an apparatus built to 
Podkletnov's specifications.

Boeing recently approached Podkletnov directly, but promptly fell victim 
to Russian technology transfer controls, as Moscow tries to stem the 
exodus of Russian high-tech to the West.

Boeing reportedly is not the only company interested in Podkletnov, 
since Lockheed Martin and BAE Systems have also contacted the scientist 
"and have some activity in this area."

Securing his cooperation may prove tricky, as Jane's reports Podkletnov 
is very anti-military, and will only provide assistance if the research 
is carried out in the "white world" of open development.

<end>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  1 08:03:03 2002
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Subject: ELF of Fran De Aquino (OT?)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:56:36 +0400
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Hi,

Fran De Aquino has updated his new paper "Behavior of Electric Current
Subjected to ELF Electromagnetic Radiation" where he "calculated" that
under ELF of 1uHz, electric current inside conductors would not flow.

This idea is very inspiring in the light of UFO encounters reported me
on the first hand.  But I think a difficulty arose here as one cycle of u1Hz
take more than one week. So one expect the effect would not be obtained
instantly.

On the other had if ELF EM radiation have an effect on gravity, slowly rotating celestial objects
having magnetic poles or non neutral, would be good source of ELF EM as
their huge size allow to ELF radiation be coupled and their rotating speed would be
 in range of ELF. 

With these arguments, galaxies rotation speed anomalies and PIONEER-11 slowdown
would be attributed to Aquino theory. Even one can consider strong enough ELF radiation
produced in astronomical scale would lead to catastrophical events, WOW!


At least, it would be not incorrect to think celestial objects would be source
of ELF.

http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0207100

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  1 15:42:00 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ELF of Fran De Aquino (OT?)
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 08:39:59 +1000
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In reply to  hamdix verisoft.com.tr's message of Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:56:36 +0400:
Hi,
[snip]

>
>Hi,
>
>Fran De Aquino has updated his new paper "Behavior of Electric Current
>Subjected to ELF Electromagnetic Radiation" where he "calculated" that
>under ELF of 1uHz, electric current inside conductors would not flow.

DC is less than 1 uHz, and it flows through conductors just fine.

[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  1 19:18:14 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
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Subject: RE: ELF of Fran De Aquino (OT?)
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Hi.

This whole idea about microhertz signals and resonance
seems strange to me. It would take about 3 days for
a 1/4 cycle to occur, presumably the experiment would
need to run over the course of weeks to see a resonance.
Does Fran comment on this anywhere in his writings?
I've read a few papers of his and find them a bit
opaque. By the way, what the heck is this guy using
for a driver??? A power supply with a clock? (smile)

K.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  2 02:47:46 2002
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Subject: Re: ELF of Fran De Aquino (OT?)
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Hi Robin,

I am certainly not advocating Aquino theory and it appears to me to technically
impossible to create measurable ELF EM fields with proposed setups, but you are
wrong here.

> DC is less than 1 uHz, and it flows through conductors just fine.


DC classically, does not produce EM waves and induction, but ELF does with a suitable configuration.
So you cant falsify Aquino's hypothesis with this example.


Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> 
> In reply to  hamdix verisoft.com.tr's message of Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:56:36 +0400:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> 
> >
> >Hi,
> >
> >Fran De Aquino has updated his new paper "Behavior of Electric Current
> >Subjected to ELF Electromagnetic Radiation" where he "calculated" that
> >under ELF of 1uHz, electric current inside conductors would not flow.
> 
> DC is less than 1 uHz, and it flows through conductors just fine.
> 
> [snip]
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  2 14:13:49 2002
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Aug 02, 2002
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 16:57:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 2 Aug 02   Washington, DC

1. ANTI-GRAVITY: A GRAVITY SHIELD WOULD BE VERY NICE, BUT...
Never has an idea with no prospect for success so captivated
corporate research managers who either never studied or never
understood the most basic laws of physics.  Both Boeing in the US
and BAE Systems, the British aerospace giant, are trying to make
the Podkletnov gravity shield work.  BAE has already been at it
for two years (WN 31 Mar 00), with no success.  When NASA
couldn't make the Podkletnov shield work, they invested another
million dollars (WN 22 Jan 99).  When it still didn't work, they
decided the tests were "inconclusive" and sank another mil into
it (WN 12 Oct 01).  I have identified seven warning signs of bad
science http://www.bobpark.com.  The Podkletnov gravity shield
fits all seven.  So why would Boeing choose to spend millions to
test a ridiculous claim by an obscure Russian physicist that has
failed every test and is a physical impossibility to begin with? 
OK, so the Pentagon is paying for it.  But there's also this
goofy book by Nick Cook, who writes for Jane's Defense Weekly.

2. BOOK REVIEW: "THE HUNT FOR ZERO POINT," by NICK COOK.  If this
book is about controlling gravity, what's with the "zero point"?
The confusion is natural; both lie within the province of fringe
scientists who haven't a clue of where the real world stops and
the fantasy world of Atlantis and UFO's begins.  Cook is not a
scientist of any sort; in his world, these guys are the insiders. 
Don't look for them in the pages of Phys Rev; they're not a bunch
of pointy-headed academics.  They are part of the black world of
really important top secret stuff like -- well, electrogravitics. 
So who exactly fed Nick Cook this enormous pile of horse manure? 
If you're a regular reader of WN, you've already met them all. 

3. FRINGE: WHERE EVERYTHING IS SECRET, AND NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE.
When Cook set out on his search for "the biggest secret since the
atom bomb," he went straight to the Integrity Research Institute,
in Washington, DC, where you can buy books and videos with titles
like "Holistic Physics and Consciousness" (WN 5 Mar 99).  IRI is
really Tom Valone, a former patent examiner who lost his job in
the fallout from the Conference on Free Energy (WN 21 May 99). 
He had recruited Paul LaViolette, who claims the B-2 uses anti-
gravity, reverse engineered from a crashed flying saucer.  He was
also fired (WN 18 Aug 00).  They sent Cook to the Institute for
Advanced Study.  Not the one in Princeton; the one in Austin, TX.
It consists of Harold Puthoff, who wants to extract energy from
the zero point of the vacuum.  He used to run the CIA's "remote
viewing" program, which was inspired by "Mind Reach," a book he
wrote with Russell Targ (WN 11 Mar 94).  Finally, Cook sought
advice from Charles Platt, founder of CryoCare, a company that
keeps human heads bobbing in liquid nitrogen until scientists can
figure out how to restart them (WN 21 Jul 00).

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  3 07:56:11 2002
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <fstenger@suite224.net>
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Interesting stuff.       


http://www.er.doe.gov/feature_articles_2001/June/Decades/25.html


Applicable U.S. Patents:

http://164.195.100.11/netahtml/search-bool.html

4,953,366
5,813,234
5,892,293
5,901,556
5,996,345
6,425,250

Regards,      Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  3 16:43:29 2002
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Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Aug 02, 2002]
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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I am sure that Charles Platt would not mind my circulating his action in
response to Park's latest garbage column, What's New.


- Gene Mallove

*********



If Park would be less LAZY, I wouldn't get so annoyed with him. But
recycling his old grudges does not constitute journalism.

My email below was sent to various APS addresses:


To Bob Park:

I have mailed the following letter to your keepers, who really should keep
you on a shorter leash. By this I mean that they should teach you to use a
telephone and/or access web sites to verify your sneers for accuracy. You
do know what inaccurate sneers constitute, don't you, Bob? I can't be
bothered to sue you, but one day, someone will get tired of your bile and
respond in a way which you may not find so easy to ridicule in your
inimitable fashion.

Is it an oversimplification to suggest that since you never made any
discovery of any originality yourself when you were a scientist, you now
find pleasure in denigrating those who seek to do so?

---

While I have respect for APS I am constantly dismayed by its sponsorship
of Bob Park, whose weekly column is constantly riddled with inaccuracies.
Park is a lazy writer; he does not bother to check his facts, presumably
because he feels his targets deserve no such courtesy.

In his most recent column, he writes:

"Charles Platt, founder of CryoCare, a company that keeps human heads
bobbing in liquid nitrogen until scientists can figure out how to restart
them (WN 21 Jul 00)."

No journalist would be allowed to get away with this kind of sloppiness.
Why does APS tolerate it? The activities of CryoCare Foundation may or may
not constitute valid science, but this is not the point. The point is that
the organization suspended operations about two years ago, and even when
it was doing business, it was merely an organization for dealing with
legalities and paperwork, and never had any direct association with
severed heads or liquid nitrogen.

Scientists often complain (with good reason) that journalists make dumb
errors. Alas, in Park's case, he is a scientist who makes dumb errors,
repeatedly. Again, I am not making any claims for or against the validity
of the work done by the people he maligns. I am merely pointing out that
he is an opportunist who writes without care or interest in accuracy.
Moreover, he is a petty man; his most recent mention of me has no purpose
other than as another expression of his anger over a review that I wrote
of his book VOODOO SCIENCE, in which (again) I pointed out that he had
made numerous errors, in most cases because he simply can't be bothered to
pick up the phone or check a web site, to verify his facts.

APS deserves better.

--Charles Platt



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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ELF of Fran De Aquino (OT?)
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 11:43:32 +1000
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In reply to  hamdix verisoft.com.tr's message of Fri, 2 Aug 2002 13:46:53 +0400:
Hi,
[snip]
Consider how 60Hz propagates through a conductor. If this doesn't happen by means of an EM signal, then many people will be surprised I think.
Now reduce the frequency of oscillation. When it gets to 0, the current is still propagating. De Aquino's frequency lies between these limits.

>
>Hi Robin,
>
>I am certainly not advocating Aquino theory and it appears to me to technically
>impossible to create measurable ELF EM fields with proposed setups, but you are
>wrong here.
>
>> DC is less than 1 uHz, and it flows through conductors just fine.
>
>
>DC classically, does not produce EM waves and induction, but ELF does with a suitable configuration.
>So you cant falsify Aquino's hypothesis with this example.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug  3 18:48:22 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 11:47:08 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Akira Kawasaki's message of Fri, 02 Aug 2002 14:13:19 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 2 Aug 02   Washington, DC
>
>1. ANTI-GRAVITY: A GRAVITY SHIELD WOULD BE VERY NICE, BUT...
>Never has an idea with no prospect for success so captivated
>corporate research managers who either never studied or never
>understood the most basic laws of physics.  Both Boeing in the US

....and empty jars make the most sound. ;)

Anti-gravity is real, thus RP clearly wouldn't know a law of nature, if it bit him on the backside.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  5 07:16:14 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Antigravity researchers should publish
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Naturally, I agree Bob Park is off base, but I do wish these anti-gravity 
researchers would publish normally instead of conducting all this research 
without reporting results. Park says BAE and Boeing have put years of 
effort into it "with no success." For all anyone outside these 
organizations knows he may be right. Perhaps they *have* had no success. 
The same can be said for Mills. It seems unlikely that corporations would 
pour resources into a project that has not shown the slightest evidence of 
success, but corporations and individuals sometimes act irrationally. For 
example, CF *has* shown signs of success -- very clear, very high s/n 
ratios -- and yet BAE and Boeing have not invested a dime in CF as far as I 
know. That's highly irrational.

These discoveries would have tremendous economic value if real. I suppose 
that is why the companies are keeping them secret. But they cannot patent a 
force of nature or physics discovery, all of the techniques would be 
reverse engineered in every nation a few months after the first machine is 
sold, and they probably do not have the wherewithal to develop the 
technology on their own, so I think they should go public the way AT&T went 
public with the transistor early on. I have written articles about the 
transistor and the airplane illustrating the folly of secret projects at 
this stage of research.

- Jed

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: ChemWeb.com Member News Bulletin
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 08:34:05 -0500
From: "ChemWeb.com" <chemweb ProcessRequest.com>
To: <aki ix.netcom.com>

=================================================
ChemWeb.com News Bulletin - Volume 5, Issue 31
Dear Akira Kawasaki, (Member Name:aki22)
================================================= 

In this issue:

1 - the alchemist highlights
2 - InnoCentive Challenge of the Month
3 - Chemistry Preprint Server - Cold Fusion Heats Up!
4 - 'Hot papers' - selected by the alchemist
5 - Conference reporting from DDT and the Fall ACS
6 - Visit us at Fall ACS booth 114!
7 - Book of the Week

================================================= 
1 - the alchemist highlights
================================================= 

Sign up to receive the alchemist headlines each week. Go to:
http://www.chemweb.com/mailing_list/add_user.asp?firstlist=Alchemist

Detecting Individual Neutrons with an Ultra-small Device 
http://www.chemweb.com/alchem/articles/1027071280321.html
 
Use of New Intense Sweeteners is Proposed 
http://www.chemweb.com/alchem/articles/1027071217663.html

Phthalates, the Contaminants in All of Us 
Phthalates are ubiquituous, produced by the thousands of tons every 
year, and found in detectable levels in blood and urine, but as an 
environmental contaminant how harmful to human health is phthalate? 
http://www.chemweb.com/alchem/articles/1027071157131.html

Read more headlines and see the latest features at:
http://alchemist.chemweb.com

================================================= 
2 - InnoCentive Challenge of the Month
================================================= 

Prize - Win US$ 50,000 

Title - G-MOE 

Brief - An efficient synthetic route is required for the following 
functionalized nucleoside. This molecule may have been previously 
reported in the chemical literature but the existing known synthetic 
routes are low yielding and not cost-effective. Devise and execute a 
novel synthetic strategy that allows for the efficient synthesis of 
this compound.

http://www.chemweb.com/utils/email.asp?id=9399&uid=294183

================================================= 
3 - Chemistry Preprint Server - Cold Fusion Heats Up!
=================================================

Four preprints have recently been submitted to the CPS discussing 
Cold Fusion and related phenomena:

* Nature of the Nuclear Active Environment Required for Low Energy 
Nuclear Reactions - Edmund Storms, 
http://preprint.chemweb.com/physchem/0208001

* Cold Fusion: An Objective Assessment - Edmund Storms, 
http://preprint.chemweb.com/physchem/0207012

* A Critical Evaluation of the Pons-Fleischmann Effect - Edmund 
Storms, http://preprint.chemweb.com/physchem/0207011

* Theoretical Framework for Anomalous Heat and 4He From Low Energy 
Nuclear Reactions in Transition Metal Systems - Scott Chubb, 
http://preprint.chemweb.com/analchem/0207002

Don't forget you can contribute to the online discussion groups for 
all articles submitted to the CPS.

To submit a preprint: 
http://preprint.chemweb.com/CPS/show/.global/Submission/index.html
To browse all articles: 
http://preprint.chemweb.com/CPS/show/.global/Browse/browse.html

=================================================
4 - 'Hot papers' - selected by the alchemist
=================================================

Why not take a look at the latest 'hot papers' from leading 
chemistry journals.

Arsenic speciation
The speciation of arsenic in body fluids is presented. (Talanta, 16 
August 2002)
http://www.chemweb.com/utils/email.asp?id=9400&uid=294183

Starchy tubes
The solubilization of single-walled carbon nanotubes using aqueous 
starch solution is reported. (Angew Chem Int Ed, 15 July 2002)
http://www.chemweb.com/alchem/articles/1027071184857.html

================================================= 
5 - Conference reporting from DDT and the Fall ACS
=================================================

The next two conferences the alchemist will be reporting at will be 
Drug Discovery Technology 2002 (DDT), to be held in Boston, MA, on 
the 4–9 August 2002 and the Fall ACS 2002 to be held in Boston, MA 
on 18-22 August 2002. 

Sign up for the Email Update to DDT and be first with the news.
http://www.chemweb.com/alchem/articles/1027070968576.html

Sign up for the Email Update to the ACS Fall and be first with the 
news.
http://www.chemweb.com/alchem/articles/1027071129018.html

=================================================
6 - Visit us at Fall ACS booth 114!
=================================================

We are exhibiting at Fall ACS 2002 in Boston, August 19-21. Come and 
check us out to see what new and exciting features we have added to 
ChemWeb to make it better for you. We are giving away inflatable 
postcards so that you can mail your colleagues, friends and family 
from the show! So come and have a look and see what 
you've been missing.

Come by and see us at booth 114.

================================================= 
7 - Book of the Week
=================================================

The Common Thread 
John Sulston & Georgina Ferry 

The Common Thread: A Story of Science, Politics, Ethics and the 
Human Genome is a fascinating insight into the development of the 
basic science, funding and scaling-up to industrial proportions of 
the sequencing and mapping of the human genome.

Read the alchemist's review at:
http://www.chemweb.com/alchem/articles/1027071218917.html

================================================= 

If you would like a reminder of your Member Name/password, please 
use our reminder service at: 

http://www.chemweb.com/home?forgot=1
 
================================================= 

This email has been sent to you because you are a registered member 
of ChemWeb.com and we feel it is important to keep you up-to-date 
with new developments. If you would prefer not to receive any more 
of these emails, please click on the link below to automatically 
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================================================== 

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==================================================

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  5 10:29:28 2002
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This article, on the Chemistry Preprint Server, has been recommended to you by Mr Akira Kawasaki

Message:


Article Title:
Cold Fusion: An Objective Assessment

Article:
http://preprint.chemweb.com/physchem/0207012

Regards,

The CPS Team
preprint chemweb.com

The Chemistry Preprint Server
http://preprint.chemweb.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  5 10:32:18 2002
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This article, on the Chemistry Preprint Server, has been recommended to you by Mr Akira Kawasaki

Message:


Article Title:
Nature of the Nuclear Active Environment Required for Low Energy Nuclear Reactions

Article:
http://preprint.chemweb.com/physchem/0208001

Regards,

The CPS Team
preprint chemweb.com

The Chemistry Preprint Server
http://preprint.chemweb.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  5 10:32:46 2002
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This article, on the Chemistry Preprint Server, has been recommended to you by Mr Akira Kawasaki

Message:


Article Title:
A Critical Evaluation of the Pons-Fleischmann Effect

Article:
http://preprint.chemweb.com/physchem/0207011

Regards,

The CPS Team
preprint chemweb.com

The Chemistry Preprint Server
http://preprint.chemweb.com

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This article, on the Chemistry Preprint Server, has been recommended to you by Mr Akira Kawasaki

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Article Title:
Theoretical Framework for Anomalous Heat and <sup>4</sup>He From Low Energy Nuclear Reactions in Transition Metal Systems

Article:
http://preprint.chemweb.com/analchem/0207002

Regards,

The CPS Team
preprint chemweb.com

The Chemistry Preprint Server
http://preprint.chemweb.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  5 10:43:54 2002
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This article, on the Chemistry Preprint Server, has been recommended to you by Mr Akira Kawasaki

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Article Title:
Theoretical Framework for Anomalous Heat and <sup>4</sup>He From Low Energy Nuclear Reactions in Transition Metal Systems

Article:
http://preprint.chemweb.com/analchem/0207002

Regards,

The CPS Team
preprint chemweb.com

The Chemistry Preprint Server
http://preprint.chemweb.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  5 11:32:55 2002
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Subject: Re: Antigravity researchers should publish
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 22:31:45 +0400
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Hello Jed,

In this case I think there are also reasons why we dont get no further information from russian side. According to Janes.com and other media sources. Russia is blocking the information flow, second it is said Russian researcher is strongly anti-military and dont want its discovery be used for weapons in the first hand. It may be right or wrong. Realistically, the discovery will be first used for military purposes as usual. Only prevent this is not give further information for one to reproduce the effect. Maybe similar to a recent research made in Russia, researcher wished to use their discovery exclusively in their country. Of course such approach are not "scientific". Meaning of these quotes is science in world in past and currently is NOT driven by scientific arguments. That is to know how the nature works. I think very few if no at all institutions in the world doing scientific research by this arguments. Instead
arguments are health, commercial, military and other ... of interest. Yes this can be accepted in many disciplines, specially applied science. After all, one can say "science is for the goodness of humanity. This have two meanings:

1) Science is good for humanity. Yes this is right.

2) Purpose of the science is to provide better future to humanity. This is wrong because, it open the way to criticize a scientific work and allow or not depending their specific criteria on what is good and bad for the humanity. This involve religions, political choices, economic systems. For example one can believe that humanity will survive if it follow capitalism. So if an scientific discovery would have negative impact on the tools of an capitalist system, this scientific research could be banned.

Unfortunately, I think few people in the world would accept the science would not have a specific purpose. We are seeing that cloning researches are banned. This is because people 
think as I described above.

Now, it appears that scientific research are trying to avoid the "purpose" criteria by doing researches which not have impact on anything. For example black holes, exotic subatomic particles, mass of the neutrino, detecting gravity waves which may generated by black hole collisions by methods guarantied to not work. Specially, rising an "upper limits" of a hypothetical physical value which never been detected is a very save to make
science.

Even, there is a serious discrimination of scientists according their origin in the world, at least a separation of western and eastern.

So it is hard to blame any researchers trying to do something having impact on our world for their decision to publish or not their findings.

Another important fact that I observed belong superconductor-gravity connection research is that I did not encountered an article on investigating the behavior of superconductors on large electrical impulsive or variable fields and currents. If I were a researcher on superconductors, I would like to know just its electrical response, without bothering with gravity. Absence of such a curiosity overall is a sign a serious problem in physics I think. Without such a preliminary investigation, no one have right to criticize a researcher for to not disclose all his findings or for repeatability problems.


 

Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Naturally, I agree Bob Park is off base, but I do wish these anti-gravity
> researchers would publish normally instead of conducting all this research
> without reporting results. Park says BAE and Boeing have put years of
> effort into it "with no success." For all anyone outside these
> organizations knows he may be right. Perhaps they *have* had no success.
> The same can be said for Mills. It seems unlikely that corporations would
> pour resources into a project that has not shown the slightest evidence of
> success, but corporations and individuals sometimes act irrationally. For
> example, CF *has* shown signs of success -- very clear, very high s/n
> ratios -- and yet BAE and Boeing have not invested a dime in CF as far as I
> know. That's highly irrational.
> 
> These discoveries would have tremendous economic value if real. I suppose
> that is why the companies are keeping them secret. But they cannot patent a
> force of nature or physics discovery, all of the techniques would be
> reverse engineered in every nation a few months after the first machine is
> sold, and they probably do not have the wherewithal to develop the
> technology on their own, so I think they should go public the way AT&T went
> public with the transistor early on. I have written articles about the
> transistor and the airplane illustrating the folly of secret projects at
> this stage of research.
> 
> - Jed

Regards,

hamdi ucar


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  5 13:21:44 2002
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Aug. 05, 2002

Vortex,

My mistake. I thought that e-mailing the pre-print articles from Chemweb
would send the item whole to vortex. It still does, but you must join
Chemweb prior to accessing the article --- which is at no cost, I
believe, and relatively simple.

-ak-.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  5 17:59:37 2002
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 20:58:10 EDT
Subject: Re: Antigravity researchers should publish
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Boeing statement:

"The recent report that we are [involved in anti-grav research] is based on a 
misinterpretation of information. For instance, GRASP is not a codename for a 
current project but rather an acronym for a presentation entitled "Gravity 
Research for Advanced Space Propulsion," in which a Boeing engineer explains 
Podkletnov's theory and proposes that we should continue to monitor this work 
and perhaps even conduct some low-cost experiments to further assess its 
plausibility. No steps have been taken beyond this point by Boeing."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  5 18:55:46 2002
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 21:52:42 EDT
Subject: Bob Park and Erik Baard exchange
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BAARD to Hydrino Studies Group:

Anyone notice that Park's non-disclaiming disclaimer now includes the 
University of Maryland?

"THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be."

Maybe www.bobpark.com will also start distancing itself from him.

Erik
_______________________________________________________

PARK to Hydrino Studies Group:

Where has Erik Baard been?  Far from distancing itself, the University of 
Maryland joined the American Physical Society in sponsoring What's New almost 
a year ago. This was announced in What's New on 7 Sept 01.   The Department 
of Physics made the writing of What's New part of my teaching assignment, 
thus providing me with more time  to expose fraudulent science and sloppy 
reporting.   Since no one at the University of Maryland or the American 
Physical Society has any editorial responsibility for What's New before it 
goes out, I include both in the disclaimer.  

The willingness of both organizations to allow What's New to be issued 
without eitorial review constitutes a strong vote of confidence.  I wonder if 
any organization would consider publishing the writings of Erik Baard without 
editorial control?

Robert L. Park
_________________________________________________________________

BAARD to Hydrino Studies Group:

Well, Dr. Park is more prickly when playfully poked than I'd expected.  
Anyway, a few quick notes:

1)  Dr. Park has on numerous occasions blasted universities for having flaky 
curricula.  I'm not sure that simply having administrators make the writing 
of "What's New" a part of one's teaching assignment is a strong endorsement 
of its worth.  It could also be seen as a sign of resignation that a 
presumably tenured faculty member is sufficiently obsessed with one activity 
that it may be difficult to squeeze anything else of value from that person.

2)  "(M)ore time  to expose fraudulent science and sloppy reporting."  

Most of Dr. Park's targets are easy pickings.  As I have said many times, 
usually weird ideas in science are just that -- weird.  Much like mutations 
in genes, these oddities rarely confer advantage.  If one sits back and rides 

out a career shooting down bizarre-seeming concepts, the statistical 
probability is that most of the deflated notions will deserve such treatment. 

A nice bargain, and all without the effort of critical thinking!

Of course, the marketplace of ideas and the marketplace of products are 
intrinsically tied, so the active choices of scientists, managers, 
regulators, and consumers are perpetually (dare I use the word?) at work.  
Bad ideas die or linger at the very fringes of society.  Some, like palm 
reading, may never go away.  But truly, how much value is a professional 
naysayer adding to society above and beyond these mechanisms?  If one needs 
an expert to dispute or dismiss a new concept, any number of universities and 

labs have brilliant people working hands-on in relevant fields.  A bonus is 
that they may not only reveal the flaw in a proposal, they might also even 
provide an alternative based on current research.

And Dr. Park makes errors without regret or, quite often, correction.  I'll 
use Dr. Mills as an example only because I know that subject pretty well.  He 

accused Dr. Mills of claiming hydrinos could cure cancer, when in fact Dr. 
Mills made no such claim.  Dr. Mills did, however, publish a cancer paper in 
Nature in 1988.  The treatment conceived in that paper relies heavily on a 
knowledge of physics, and Dr. Mills has said his more classical way of 
framing particle physics helped him construct his thoughts.  But that paper 
in Nature and further work on the idea made no use of hydrinos.  Dr. Park 
wrongly asserts that Dr. Mills "had no record of scientific publication."  A 
caption in a Forbes article by Dr. Park identified a standard spectrometer 
(which had its make and model clearly in view) as a "hydrino machine."  That 
would be like labeling a Ford Escort a "UFO."

There's more, of course, but I have rent to pay with other articles, so let's 

move along.

3)  "The willingness of both organizations to allow What's New to be issued 
without editorial review constitutes a strong vote of confidence.  I wonder 
if any organization would consider publishing the writings of Erik Baard 
without editorial control?"

It could be viewed as unfortunate that the university and the APS are 
apparently unwilling to devote editorial resources to what amounts to a 
vanity project.  Just about anything of note undergoes review by editors.  I 
am thankful for editors at the New York Times, Village Voice, Wall Street 
Journal, Dow Jones Newswires, and various popular science publications and 
other outlets in a way somewhat similar to how scientists are thankful for 
peer review.  A good editor forces a writer to hone ideas, communicate more 
clearly, address biases, search deeper, and be more open.  

For Dr. Park to imply that these publications would do me honor by not 
assigning me an editor shows a complete ignorance of the journalistic 
process.  That's important because Dr. Park is operating outside his 
expertise most of the time -- medicine, space exploration, politics, etc. and 

delivering his results to lay readers. That's not science, that's the work of 

a journalist, which we often joke in the field is a slur of "generalist."  If 

he wants to comment on these wide-ranging topics and meet such standards, he 
must interview experts in each endeavor and record what they say faithfully 
as he can.  And he needs editors.


In truth, I regret and apologize to Dr. Park for taking a personal poke at 
him through the HSG email forum.  Given the snarky phrasing of his 
disclaimer, I thought my comment was in-bounds.  But it seems I offended him 
more deeply than intended, and I don't take pleasure from being unkind.  I 
do, however, stand by these statements made today as being factual based on 
my knowledge.  I am, however, always open to correction.  After all, I'm 
doing this without an editor.

Erik


Hydrino Study Group (HSG):
A serious look at the novel theory of Dr. Randell Mills.
Web Site      http://www.hydrino.org
Post message: hydrino yahoogroups.com 
Subscribe:  hydrino-subscribe yahoogroups.com 
Unsubscribe:  hydrino-unsubscribe yahoogroups.com 
List owner:   hydrino-owner yahoogroups.com 


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug  5 20:14:42 2002
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 23:13:05 EDT
Subject: Baard and Park background
To: park aps.org, storms2@ix.netcom.com, hydrino@yahoogroups.com,
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Hi Again,

I would appreciate the chance to more firmly challenge Dr. Park's belittling 
of my professional abilities.  He most recently wrote, "I wonder if any 
organization would consider publishing the writings of Erik Baard without 
editorial control?"

The New York City Chapter (i.e., largest and most competitive section) of the 
Society of Professional Journalists, the leading "organization" in its field, 
in May awarded me the prize for best reporting in non-daily news 
(http://deadline.home.pipeline.com/winners2002.htm).

Forgive this self-indulgent afterthought, but tooting my own horn isn't 
reflexive for me.  I've written more extensively about Dr. Randell Mills and 
the hydrino concept for lay readers than anyone else.  Many people are 
familiar with Dr. Mills' ideas primarily through my articles in the Village 
Voice, Wall Street Journal, Dow Jones Newswires, and Wired News.  For that 
reason, my reputation has bearing in this small discussion.

You'll note that I shared a byline for the winning entry, but Ms. Cooney 
would be the first to say that I was the sole author of the article.  The 
Society asked me to write about that process, and this is what I submitted 
through the Village Voice:

<<"China's Execution Inc." (Village Voice cover story, May 2, 2001) was the 
first article documenting an American surgeon's experience with patients who 
left United States soil to purchase organ transplants from hospitals serving 
China's death row, and then returned here for follow-up treatment.  The 
practice had long been rumored, but without substantiation on this side of 
the Pacific. Even law enforcement sting operations came up empty handed.  
This article showed with reliable sourcing that there were indeed people 
walking our streets implanted with the organs of executed Chinese prisoners - 
some of whom may have been killed for minor or political offenses.  

Dr. Thomas Diflo, director of renal transplant surgery at NYU Medical Center, 
didn't seek media attention, only the advice of peers on his hospital's 
ethics committee. He was having difficulty caring for patients, typically 
young Chinese-American or Chinese immigrant women, who had violated his core 
moral beliefs. Freelance photographer Rebecca Cooney heard a rumor several 
times removed from the source about the surgeon's dilemma, and after finding 
no takers at the New York Times, told me about it.

I mentioned the vague tip casually, as a future story, to Village Voice 
editor Laura Conaway, who quickly referred it to editor-in-chief Don Forst.  
Mr. Forst wanted to jump on the story immediately, so I found and interviewed 
Dr. Diflo (who was forthcoming when approached), human rights activists, 
government officials, law enforcement agencies, and Chinese community leaders 
(even priests in Chinatown), organ donor nonprofit organizations, and other 
physicians to provide confirmation and context.  Dr. Diflo's patients 
declined through him to be interviewed.  I researched prior testimony about 
the organ trade in China and elsewhere, and the political and technological 
solutions to the organ shortage that have been offered. Readers also learned 
of how transplant profits might be corrupting the Chinese judicial system. 
Another important point revealed by the story was that many patients 
returning to the U.S. receive treatments and medications subsidized by 
American taxpayers.  The turnaround time for the approximately 3,600-word 
story from when the tip was passed to Don Forst to publication was six days, 
with my writing done in three.  Rebecca Cooney photographed the story.

Dr. Diflo was subsequently, as a result of the article, a primary witness in 
congressional hearings about the Chinese death row organ transplant business 
as the U.S. mulled that nation's trade status.  Other publications and 
broadcasters followed on the story, some focusing specifically on Dr. Diflo's 
experiences as recounted in the Voice. The New York Times was notable for 
this, closely mirroring elements of the article's contents and structure in a 
front page story half a year later, on Sunday, November 11.

Though the United States and China have in some sense had warmer relations in 
recent days as they cooperate in the war on terrorism, and law enforcement 
agencies have redirected their efforts to staunch further attacks, the organ 
trade and other human rights issues could reassert themselves as sources of 
friction between the two nations most likely to shape the 21st century.>>

Erik

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  6 07:53:09 2002
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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 10:51:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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	Gravity Society ... new WWW     URL

	http://www.gravity-society.org

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  6 09:09:56 2002
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> http://evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=391

Craig (Houston)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  6 12:08:53 2002
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Subject: LENR.org papers available
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We have begun making papers available on LENR.org. Many more will follow. 
The ones posted now may have formatting problems, and at least one cannot 
be read (by me, anyway) for some reason.

I would appreciate hearing comments about the papers, especially 
secretarial level comments about margins, formatting, spelling etc.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug  6 12:14:56 2002
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http://www.salon.com/books/review/2002/08/05/zero_gravity/index.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug  7 12:23:13 2002
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Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 15:14:10 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Request papers in electronic format for new web site LENR.org
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Edmund Storms, Peter Hagelstein and I are starting a new web site, 
LENR.org, with many cold fusion papers. We want to establish a place where 
scientists can find information easily, without searching through back 
issues of journals. We have uploaded some leading papers already:

http://lenr.org/papers/

ENECO has given us permission to upload the papers in the ICCF-7 
Proceedings. We have begun doing that, but it will take weeks or months, 
because the papers must be converted to Acrobat .pdf format.

Do you have any cold fusion papers you would like to make available on this 
site? If so, please upload them into the "Papers" section, or e-mail them 
to me. If they are in Microsoft Word, Wordperfect or some other format 
other than Acrobat .pdf, please send them to me and I will convert them.

(Please circulate this notice to any cold fusion scientist you know)

- Jed Rothwell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  8 05:55:53 2002
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"Speed of light has changed, claims Macquarie physicist

Australian theoretical physicist, Professor Paul Davies, has proposed 
that one of the so-called "constants" of the universe - the speed of 
light - has in fact slowed over time, a revelation that will cause a 
rethink of many of our accepted laws of physics as well as our 
"understanding" of the beginning of the universe."

more at:

http://www.pr.mq.edu.au/events/index.asp?ItemID=607

Does this support an aether theory, ie as the universe expands aether 
becomes less dense and light slows?

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  8 06:12:17 2002
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:10:58 EDT
Subject: HSG: Baard - Park Comment 
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Good Morning,

Rushing through deadlines, but I wanted to note in response to Charles 
Pibel's post that yes, I have read Park's "What's New (someone once dubbed 
it, "What's New That I Hate") weekly for years.  It's my last sour note 
before the weekend.  He does write occasionally about Congressional issues 
that could pinch physicists' research wallets (APS is, after all, a lobbying 
group as well) and he recently shocked me by criticizing corruption in 
mainstream research (I can recall few earlier incidents).  But let's be real 
-- take out cold fusion, other "free energy" concepts, parapsychology, magnet 
therapy, Creationism, antigravity, and "Vitamin O" supplements and he doesn't 
have much material.  Take away his catch phrase, "Voodoo Science," and he has 
scant reputation.  That's his choice to pander to what his "readers like to 
read."

No one reading "What's New" is being served -- the column is nearly entirely 
schadenfreude fluff, and at times misinfotainment.

Take BlackLight, which has gathered some pennies compared with other lines of 
research.  The investors are wealthy people who hire scientists to 
investigate Dr. Mills before plunking down their bets.  Dr. Mills is not 
knocking on doors at retirement villages and sleepy row houses.  Who is Dr. 
Park protecting then?

I ask Dr. Park's choir, has he prevented a recession by keeping funds from 
these causes?  If these things are hokum, they'll fade away to nothingness or 
a dark recess of our culture.  Even Creationism, given that it held sway for 
millennia (myths predating Christianity included), that it's slipping away as 
a "science" so rapidly is astonishing.  Personally, however, I think beating 
spirituality out of the human animal entirely is a fool's errand.

Conversely, to conspiracy nuts I ask, has Dr. Park saved the Earth from 
Vitamin O/magnet therapy-empowered Creationists reading our minds and 
imposing their will from on-high aboard antigravity UFOs powered by free 
energy?

I've already addressed the college course issue, and I'm not convinced by 
your argument.  As I wrote, universities (and Dr. Park has noted this in the 
past) spend money on absurdities sometimes.  Besides, Dr. Park was recently 
knocked out of commission by his unfortunate accident and is nearer to 
retirement than most -- I wouldn't rule out some compassion in the decision.  
His recent teaching assignments, I believe, were mostly science writing 
courses anyway, not hard-core science instruction.

I'm sorry if this seems harsh, but I'm tired of endless potshots from people 
who haven't generated new ideas in decades, as much as I'm tired of many of 
the vague conspiracy theories from the fringe.  One sign of hope is that 
Science and New Scientist are coming out in defense of the right to conduct 
and publish controversial research (apart from harmless noodlings that can't 
be tested), defying the Parks of the world but also quieting the 
ever-suspicious X-Files crowd.  

And yes, Dr. Mills needs an editor too.

Erik

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  8 12:25:34 2002
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Subject: CNN.com - Has time run out on Einstein's theory? - June 5, 2002
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  8 17:04:18 2002
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From: "xplorer" <xplorer indo.net.id>
To: "Vortex-L Eskimo. Com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Q: Thermal re-entry barrier
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 07:07:47 +0700
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Hi folks -

Recent experiments with fiberglass using silicone resin as
 a 'stiffening matrix'
 (I don't know the jargon, there is probably a better term)
 in place of epoxy or polyester have been encouraging.
It appears I can paint the resin on in very thin layers,
 allowing adequate time to dry between layers,
 cooking the panels after drying have finished.
The end result is a relatively stiff construction
 which might be used for thermal re-entry protection
 for a spacecraft. It seems to stand up to 1200 C temp.
Trouble is, I am not a chemist,
 and I ponder if it might be better
 to use carbon fiber instead of glass
 as the tensile strength.
The doubt is that as the outer skin ablates,
 the carbon would be much more susceptible to burning,
 resulting in what I envision as a 'peeling flame',
 exposing the under layers to undergo the same fate.
Or is there some mechanism that would cause the
 silicone to form a strong bond with the carbon
 and give it more temperature strength ?

Is this right ?
Any ideas ?

The finished fiberglass sheets I made using silicone resin
 were astonishingly lightweight compared to our
 regular polyester/fiber panels,
 giving rise to high hope this technique will work....

thanx for any replies...

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  8 18:55:50 2002
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Subject: Re: Thermal re-entry barrier
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 20:44:49 -0500
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xplorer-

How did you determine this composite layup with silicone resin could
withstand 1200 C?
Also, are you using a 2-part silicone resin and if so, would you give us
some details? What weight and style of glass cloth have you used? I have an
interest and use for high temp composites in the exhaust systems of
competition RC aircraft is the reason I ask.

Regards,
Jon
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To: "Vortex-L Eskimo. Com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:07 PM
Subject: Q: Thermal re-entry barrier


>
> Hi folks -
>
> Recent experiments with fiberglass using silicone resin as
>  a 'stiffening matrix'
>  (I don't know the jargon, there is probably a better term)
>  in place of epoxy or polyester have been encouraging.
> It appears I can paint the resin on in very thin layers,
>  allowing adequate time to dry between layers,
>  cooking the panels after drying have finished.
> The end result is a relatively stiff construction
>  which might be used for thermal re-entry protection
>  for a spacecraft. It seems to stand up to 1200 C temp.
> Trouble is, I am not a chemist,
>  and I ponder if it might be better
>  to use carbon fiber instead of glass
>  as the tensile strength.
> The doubt is that as the outer skin ablates,
>  the carbon would be much more susceptible to burning,
>  resulting in what I envision as a 'peeling flame',
>  exposing the under layers to undergo the same fate.
> Or is there some mechanism that would cause the
>  silicone to form a strong bond with the carbon
>  and give it more temperature strength ?
>
> Is this right ?
> Any ideas ?
>
> The finished fiberglass sheets I made using silicone resin
>  were astonishingly lightweight compared to our
>  regular polyester/fiber panels,
>  giving rise to high hope this technique will work....
>
> thanx for any replies...
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug  8 20:59:58 2002
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Q: Thermal re-entry barrier
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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X:

Sounds interesting enough.  There are some fundamentals of heat shield
design you will have to know.

These two are most important.  
1) Will it stand up to the heat and will it do so while air (100mb or so)
is passing at Mach18 for at least 3 to 5 min.

2) Will it insulate the spacecraft.  That is will it prevent the heat
from passing through and roasting the contents.

Without these two properties the best you can hope for is a plastic
barbecue grill.  

Other points of interest are:

Is it rugged. e/g A sir tian amount of flexibility is desirable otherwise
it might gain nothing over the tried and true beer-stone ceramic
laminate.

Is the expansion rate relatively close to that of aircraft aluminum as
the shuttle cockpit is made from a 747 shell.

so it comes down to...
 
Friction heat tolerance
Thermal resistance
Mechanical rigidity
expansion rate

--- xplorer &lt;xplorer indo.net.id&gt; wrote:
&gt; 
&gt; Hi folks -
&gt; 
&gt; Recent experiments with fiberglass using silicone resin as
&gt;  a 'stiffening matrix'
&gt;  (I don't know the jargon, there is probably a better term)
&gt;  in place of epoxy or polyester have been encouraging.
&gt; It appears I can paint the resin on in very thin layers,
&gt;  allowing adequate time to dry between layers,
&gt;  cooking the panels after drying have finished.
&gt; The end result is a relatively stiff construction
&gt;  which might be used for thermal re-entry protection
&gt;  for a spacecraft. It seems to stand up to 1200 C temp.
&gt; Trouble is, I am not a chemist,
&gt;  and I ponder if it might be better
&gt;  to use carbon fiber instead of glass
&gt;  as the tensile strength.
&gt; The doubt is that as the outer skin ablates,
&gt;  the carbon would be much more susceptible to burning,
&gt;  resulting in what I envision as a 'peeling flame',
&gt;  exposing the under layers to undergo the same fate.
&gt; Or is there some mechanism that would cause the
&gt;  silicone to form a strong bond with the carbon
&gt;  and give it more temperature strength ?
&gt; 
&gt; Is this right ?
&gt; Any ideas ?
&gt; 
&gt; The finished fiberglass sheets I made using silicone resin
&gt;  were astonishingly lightweight compared to our
&gt;  regular polyester/fiber panels,
&gt;  giving rise to high hope this technique will work....
&gt; 
&gt; thanx for any replies...
&gt; 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs
http://www.hotjobs.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug  9 17:19:31 2002
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Aug 09, 2002
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 16:47:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 9 Aug 02   Washington, DC

1. PEER REVIEW: IS NSF STARTING TO RESEMBLE A PORK BARREL?  Up 
until now, the NSF has largely avoided the congressional earmarks
that burden the budgets of other agencies.  Even though Congress
relishes pork, the NSF tradition of awarding funds strictly on
the basis of peer review has generally been honored. However, the
National Science Board has approved more major research projects
than the NSF budget can accommodate.  Nothing wrong with that,
there are a lot of good ideas out there.  So by what peer review
process does the NSF then decide which projects to include in its
budget request?  According to NSF's budget request for FY 03,
"The Director selects from the group of NSB-approved projects." 
That's it?  The Director selects?  NSF Director Rita Colwell
thinks this is a fine selection process, but according to this
week's Nature, others see it as a threat to NSF integrity. 
Former APS President Jerome Friedman testified in May that NSF
should submit a full list of approved projects in prioritized
order, along with an explanation of the criteria.  Otherwise it's
an invitation to groups on the list to seek congressional help.

2. THE LAWS OF PHYSICS: IS LIGHT REALLY SLOWING DOWN?  The media
loves this kind of story.  An Australian group led by Paul Davies
says the speed of light has been slowing down.  Hey, I mean what
isn't?  Actually, what they claim in this week's Nature is that
there is cosmological evidence that the fine structure constant
is slowly increasing.  Since the effect on the laws of physics of
increasing the electronic charge are too awful to contemplate, 
they figure light is going slower.  That kills relativity, but my
mail indicates nobody but physicists believe that stuff anyway.

3. ANTI-GRAVITY: WAS THIS THE LIGHTWEIGHT STORY OF THE YEAR?  The
Eastside Journal in Bellevue, WA, quotes a Boeing spokesman as
saying the company is not funding any anti-gravity research (WN 2
Aug 02), nor is it attempting to duplicate Podkletnov's results. 
HA!  Nick Cook warned us they would say that.  He would say it's
just disinformation, part of the massive government cover-up.

4. POLYGRAPH: THE CONVERSION OF SENATOR SHELBY.  Outraged by lax
security in the Wen Ho Lee case(WN 12 Mar 99), Shelby (R-AL)
demanded polygraph testing of all weapons scientists, about
15,000.  This time, Congress leaked a sensitive NSA phone
intercept.  Charged with finding the miscreant, the FBI wants a
few key members of Congress to take a polygraph exam.  Shelby is
outraged again.  "I don't know who among us would take a lie-
detector test," Shelby roared. "First of all, they're not even
admissible in court."  

5. INTEGRITY IN SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH: ACADEMY REPORT SAYS ZZZZZZZ.
Creating an environment that promotes responsizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the authors and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 10 19:07:13 2002
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August 10, 2002

Vortex,

I have received an inquiry on how to get in contact with Robert Park.
I do not know him personally but I was able to find this:
He is listed as:

Robert L. Park

The American Physical Society, Natl Press Bldg.
529 14th St. NW Ste 1050
Washinton D.C. 20045-2001
Ph. 202-662-8700
fax: 202-663-8711
email: park aps.org;DcmpFhpFps



































































From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 11 18:28:15 2002
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From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Fuel that is 50% water?
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 18:27:04 -0700
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Subject: water based fuel?
>Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 13:44:59 -0400
>
>Filipino Iventor Selling
>Fuel That Is 50% Water
>By Luz Baguioro
>Philippines Correspondent
>Straits Times (Singapore)
>8-11-2
>
>MANILA - Water as fuel may well have been dismissed as a foolish 
>proposition several years ago. Not anymore.
>After nearly a quarter century of research, Filipino plant mechanic Rudy 
>Lantano has developed an industrial fuel composed of 40-50 per cent water, 
>50 per cent bunker oil and 5 per cent additives.
>A cheaper and an environment-friendly alternative to bunker fuel, the Super 
>Bunker Formula-L is now being sold commercially to power factories, power 
>plants, boilers and generators.
>'It is environmentally safe and could be the ultimate solution to global 
>warming,' Mr Lantano said recently.
>The Department of Science and Technology (DOST) and the National Power 
>Corporation, the two government agencies which have tested the fuel, said 
>the water-based bunker fuel emits less pollutants and reduces ignition 
>smoke emission from 1,000 parts per million to 55 ppm.
>'It causes less pollution, resulting in a cleaner and healthier 
>environment,' said the 60-year-old inventor, who was awarded the gold medal 
>by the World Intellectual Property Organisation in 1996 for his invention.
>For the Philippines, which imports the bulk of its energy needs, the use of 
>hydro-bunker fuel could mean millions of dollars in savings.
>Mr Lantano, whose research has been aided and endorsed by the government, 
>has also developed two other alternative fuel mixes: Alco-diesel and 
>Lan-gas.
>Alco-diesel is a blend of hydrous ethyl alcohol and diesel fuel that can be 
>used to power compression engines.
>Lan-gas, on the other hand, is a mixture of alcohol and petrol that can be 
>used to fuel spark-ignition engines.
>Use of these alternative fuel mixes does not require changes in existing 
>engines, and, therefore, can be used for any vehicle, according to Mr 
>Lantano.
>Private companies such as Pilipinas Shell Petroleum Corporation, which have 
>tested Alco-diesel in particular, said the fuel blend produces more engine 
>power and enables vehicles to accelerate faster and obtain more mileage per 
>litre of fuel.
>The DOST estimates Alco-diesel, if available commercially throughout the 
>country, will save Manila from buying up to three million barrels of diesel 
>oil annually.
>At present, the three types of alternative fuel are sold only in 12 Lan-gas 
>stations owned by Mr Lantano, and in stations managed by independent oil 
>retailers.
>But in coming months, Mr Lantano is setting up plants in Thailand and in 
>the United States.
>The American authorities have assured him that the US plant, to be built in 
>Maryland, will be exempted from paying any taxes.
>An oil company in the United Arab Emirates has also approached him for a 
>possible tie-up.
>Although multinational oil companies still dominate the oil market in most 
>parts of the world, Mr Lantano predicts global warming and the worsening 
>air pollution in urban areas would eventually jack up demand for 
>alternative and environment-friendly fuel.
>Copyright   2002 Singapore Press Holdings. All rights reserved. 
>http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/asia/story/0,1870,136861
>



_________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 12 00:19:16 2002
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Subject: Re: Fuel that is 50% water?
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Interesting article Mark.

Unfortunately the link you provided didn't work.

There was an American who claimed to have developed a fuel additive 
which allowed for the same thing with light petroleum, gas and 
diesel. I contacted him, he said that he was working with one of the 
big manufactures of engines. Anyway, I never heard from him again.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 12 13:00:41 2002
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Subject: Re: Fuel that is 50% water?
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The subject of water + petrochemical fuel has come up several times over 
the years, here and in other discussion groups. People can look through the 
archives to find out more, although I don't recall the thread titles.

Anyway, it is important to note that this technique has been widely used 
and it works for conventional reasons. People have often pointed out it was 
used during with WWII aircraft engines for an emergency overboost, and it 
tends to destroy engines unless they are designed for it. I presume the 
expanding water makes the ICE engine work partially as a steam engine, and 
the overall temperature of the exhaust gas is lower than it would be 
without water.

There might be additional extra power from an anomalous source, which would 
be of interest here. I doubt that anyone has investigated the phenomenon in 
enough detail to establish that. Unless the anomalous power component was 
very large, it would be difficult to detect. An ICE is inefficient and 
makes a noisy calorimeter, so it is difficult to determine what is going on 
inside one.

As I recall, Paul Pantone of GEET was working on a scheme with water added 
to fuel. I went to look this up and I found he has been in some difficulty 
lately. His web site is down, he has filed for bankrupcy, and Dennis Lee 
claims that *he* invented the technique, not Pantone.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 12 15:42:20 2002
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lenr.org/papers/ is now better organized, thanks to Ed Storms and Tim 
Perdue. We hope to add a keyword search before the number of papers becomes 
unwieldy.

I have not added many papers lately, but some of the ones on there are 
long, such as the first Navy report. I have been sending messages to 
scientists asking pretty please to send me something, because conversion 
from paper is so time-consuming.

I hope John Dash comes through with a lot of material soon, including 
perhaps papers from his high school students who do research every summer. 
Ed Storms wants to maintain high standards, but perhaps he will allow 
special dispensation for papers written by people under 18. If Dash comes 
through, it would be helpful if people here and elsewhere READ his stuff 
and send him a note of appreciation. We need enthusiastic responses to 
encourage other researchers to post papers.

I may tackle Fleischmann's "Heat after Death" soon. Unfortunately it is on 
paper. (Large sheets he handed me years ago.) It has lots of hairy 
calorimetry, but you skip that and still see extraordinary results.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 12 16:24:21 2002
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Subject: Chiao's new paper (gr-qc/0208024)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 03:23:22 +0400
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http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/0208024


     Title: Conceptual tensions between quantum mechanics and general relativity:
     Are there experimental consequences, e.g., superconducting transducers
     between electromagnetic and gravitational radiation?
     Authors: Raymond Y. Chiao

Hi,

This papers appears as an expanded version of previous paper and also contain
an analyses about the negative result of initial experiment.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 13 07:35:04 2002
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Subject: Re: Fuel that is 50% water?
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>The subject of water + petrochemical fuel has come up several times 
>over the years,

It's called charge densification.  The expanding gas has more bulk to 
push against. It also lowers the flame temperature.

>, and it tends to destroy engines unless they are designed for it. I 
>presume the expanding water makes the ICE engine work partially as a 
>steam engine, and the

I agree.

>
>As I recall, Paul Pantone of GEET was working on a scheme with water 
>added to fuel.

I had such great hopes for Paul. Someone forwarded a discussion group 
that was interested in GEET Technology, I soon realized that they 
were unable to replicated Paul's claims and consequently I lost 
interest.

>Dennis Lee claims that *he* invented the technique, not Pantone.

That figures.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 13 17:49:03 2002
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Gentlemen,

This is where biological transmutation of elements, nano-scale interactions,
"life energy", Reich's Oranur effect, LENR, and fungi get together.  It
started out as an experiment that was more or less a total shot in the dark,
but ended up producing an anomaly I really have serious trouble explaining -
within any framework.

Dr. Sam Faile got this one rolling.  A few months ago, a troublesome mold or
fungus got started in Sam's apartment in Cincinnati.  Being a lot like many
of us, he chose to do some experiments in culturing, to see just what this
stuff was.  After growing a quantity of it, he sent some out via a local
medical center for analysis.  Not totally identifiable, but similar to a
variety of common gyromitra like fungi (?) or so he was told.  After a lot
of casual chat, we wondered whether fungi could be capable of biological
transmutation of heavier unstable elements.  Well, since I have some thorium
and uranium compounds, and a trusty lab Geiger counter, I volunteered to try
some testing.  The results were strange, to say the least.  I have a second
more extensive round brewing right now...

Enjoy...

http://www.geocities.com/spfaile/RadioFungi.html

NR



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 13 18:00:01 2002
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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Subject: UPDATE Anti Gravity 
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	Events and Items from (A) to (D) are well known .... the scope 
		of this update is from  from (E) onward and contains some
		measurements and observations from new work.


	A)	When a cat is dropped, it always lands on its feet.  

	B) 	When toast is dropped, it always lands with the 
			buttered side facing down.

	C) Buttered Toast is Fastened  to the Back of a Cat.
	   The Buttered Side is aligned so as to be Upward when the
		Cat is normally standing on its feet.	
	   This is a Stable, Quiescent State.  
	   Cat Standing normally, Buttered Toast positioned with the
              Buttered side toward the Sky.

	D)	Releasing the Cat-Toast from a nominal safe height of no
		  greater than One (1) meter,  the two will Hover, 
		  in a homeostatic condition inches above the ground. 
	
	E)	In general the height between Ground and a given Toast-Cat
		Binary is usually a distance that is somewhere between the
		length of the legs of the cat, and the longest distance 
		across the toast in use, plus 66 percents.


	F)	With a Giant Buttered Toast Cat Array, or, BUTTERCAR
		low energy tranportation is achievable today.

	G)	Note:  An array will usually function only for a short
		        time, and this may be highly unpredictable.
		 
			
	i] The longest period is usually until the Toast Begins to Dry out
and would not have been good to eat anyway, even if it HAD landed buttered
side down.
	ii]	the shortest period is also the most unpredictable and is
governed by:
 	iii]    when the cat becomes thirsty or hungry on the long side
		and
	iv] on the short side by if it becomes curious about a moth, fly,
pea, bit of fluff or milkweed seed at which point the cat may become
completely unpredictable.

	H) This second period is thought to be a possible starting place
for faster than light or the so-called "Warp" drive of science fiction if
the cat gets a catnip-cat crazy fit while in the hovering mode. 
	
	So far external application of catnip to induce Warp has resulted
in the Cat-Toast arrays simply zipping out of sight at a high rate of
speed and following a completely unpredictable path.
	
	None of the "warp-cat-toast" arrays "gone-crazy", either Natural
or Catnip induced have been lost or directly recovered.  We simply do not
know Where they Go.
 	
	Fortunately the cats have always come back uninjured, sometimes with a
		moth or mouse as a "gift".


	More as it comes in. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 13 18:05:58 2002
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 <000701c2432c$2f40e7c0$0c3dee3f zanzibar>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 21:05:03 -0700
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: "Tz'Akh" <zak newalexandria.org>
Subject: Re: Radioactive fungi!
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What were the proximity of the tubs in relation to each other?

Also, hemp has shown to remediate heavy metal toxins.  This work was 
done by research groups in Russia after Chernobyl blew.  The Journal 
of Phytoremediation has more info on these lines though most of the 
good work is being done outside the US becuase of political pressures.

Still, good work on this - though.  I encourage you to publish your 
results - and please try to isolate the fungal species!




thanks
-Zak

>Gentlemen,
>
>This is where biological transmutation of elements, nano-scale interactions,
>"life energy", Reich's Oranur effect, LENR, and fungi get together.  It
>started out as an experiment that was more or less a total shot in the dark,
>but ended up producing an anomaly I really have serious trouble explaining -
>within any framework.
>
>Dr. Sam Faile got this one rolling.  A few months ago, a troublesome mold or
>fungus got started in Sam's apartment in Cincinnati.  Being a lot like many
>of us, he chose to do some experiments in culturing, to see just what this
>stuff was.  After growing a quantity of it, he sent some out via a local
>medical center for analysis.  Not totally identifiable, but similar to a
>variety of common gyromitra like fungi (?) or so he was told.  After a lot
>of casual chat, we wondered whether fungi could be capable of biological
>transmutation of heavier unstable elements.  Well, since I have some thorium
>and uranium compounds, and a trusty lab Geiger counter, I volunteered to try
>some testing.  The results were strange, to say the least.  I have a second
>more extensive round brewing right now...
>
>Enjoy...
>
>http://www.geocities.com/spfaile/RadioFungi.html
>
>NR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 13 18:38:01 2002
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From: "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
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Subject: Re: Radioactive fungi!
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The tubs were approximately one meter apart, covered with paper towels.

NR

----- Original Message -----
From: Tz'Akh <zak newalexandria.org>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: Radioactive fungi!


> What were the proximity of the tubs in relation to each other?
>
> Also, hemp has shown to remediate heavy metal toxins.  This work was
> done by research groups in Russia after Chernobyl blew.  The Journal
> of Phytoremediation has more info on these lines though most of the
> good work is being done outside the US becuase of political pressures.
>
> Still, good work on this - though.  I encourage you to publish your
> results - and please try to isolate the fungal species!
>
>
>
>
> thanks
> -Zak
>
> >Gentlemen,
> >
> >This is where biological transmutation of elements, nano-scale
interactions,
> >"life energy", Reich's Oranur effect, LENR, and fungi get together.  It
> >started out as an experiment that was more or less a total shot in the
dark,
> >but ended up producing an anomaly I really have serious trouble
explaining -
> >within any framework.
> >
> >Dr. Sam Faile got this one rolling.  A few months ago, a troublesome mold
or
> >fungus got started in Sam's apartment in Cincinnati.  Being a lot like
many
> >of us, he chose to do some experiments in culturing, to see just what
this
> >stuff was.  After growing a quantity of it, he sent some out via a local
> >medical center for analysis.  Not totally identifiable, but similar to a
> >variety of common gyromitra like fungi (?) or so he was told.  After a
lot
> >of casual chat, we wondered whether fungi could be capable of biological
> >transmutation of heavier unstable elements.  Well, since I have some
thorium
> >and uranium compounds, and a trusty lab Geiger counter, I volunteered to
try
> >some testing.  The results were strange, to say the least.  I have a
second
> >more extensive round brewing right now...
> >
> >Enjoy...
> >
> >http://www.geocities.com/spfaile/RadioFungi.html
> >
> >NR
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 13 18:38:39 2002
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Subject: Re: Radioactive fungi!
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	Dear Nick et al.,


	Will you please perform some simple checks for us all so we can
determine if the organisms are altering the RATE of DECAY or are altering
the exposure or attenuation?

	A)	Place the following series BETWEEN your	detector head, the
GM tube and the or Any thorium nitrate fixed sample:

	We are testing to see if physical distance or physical amount of
simple organic matter is altering the number of counts by ATTENUATION
	due to DISTANCE and Organic Materials.
	
	To do the test you will use standard 3 by 5 file cards and place
the cards between the SAMPLE and the DETECTOR and Record the results

	Test (1)   Number of 3 by 5 cards		Counts

				1
				2
				4
				8
				16
				32
				64


	Test (2)	distance from Sample		counts
			in mm (milli meters)

				1
				5
				10
				15
				20
				25


	Test (3)	Take ANY test material and 

			(A)	make a count IN THE container
			(B)	remove the lid, make counts
			(C)	remove and known amount, dry it
				WEIGH IT
			(D)	Place it Directly against the counter


	Test (4)	with any know non moving sample place the sample
directly UNDER the counting head ... and then move the material sideways
byt fixed amounts... to account fo the biological organism physically
transporting

		distance side ways in mm

	5, 10 15 20 25 50

	finally,
			Take the Entire amount of a test.... completely
DRY it
	Weight it

	measure out the exact same amount of thorium nitrate you started
out with at the beginning... DRY

	If they are the EXACT SAME WEIGHT then homogenize the two samples
Separately and measure Radioactive counts at fixed distance of 5 mm

	IF they are NOT the same weight.... then weigh out enough
additional organic materials in the form of dry soy milk... and homogenize
completely until your control test has the same amount of dry soy milk as
the sample you THINK has different counts... and make measure,


==============+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



	AT THE VERY LEAST


	Do the 3 by 5 card test AND:

	Make SURE you use the total dried material which are supposed
to have
altered radioactivity are mixed with DRIED material of the SAME KIND... ie
soy milk to arrive at the EXACT same concentration....

	So you now have thorium nitrate and soymilk that has been in
growth

	AND

	Thorium nitrate and soymilk that has NOT been in
growth
		
at the EXACT same concentration....


      AND at  the EXACT SAME WEIGHT then homogenize the two samples

	+++Separately  +++ and measure Radioactive counts at fixed
distance of 5 mm in a DRY state....

		Then let us know...

	you MUST remove the possible artifact of water and-or organic
material and or DISTANCE altering the counts....

	Just as is done in any professional lab... I KNOW from speaking
with Sam Faile he would rather have REAL data than a possible artifact.




On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Nick Reiter wrote:

> 
> Gentlemen,
> 
> This is where biological transmutation of elements, nano-scale interactions,
> "life energy", Reich's Oranur effect, LENR, and fungi get together.  It
> started out as an experiment that was more or less a total shot in the dark,
> but ended up producing an anomaly I really have serious trouble explaining -
> within any framework.
> 
> Dr. Sam Faile got this one rolling.  A few months ago, a troublesome mold or
> fungus got started in Sam's apartment in Cincinnati.  Being a lot like many
> of us, he chose to do some experiments in culturing, to see just what this
> stuff was.  After growing a quantity of it, he sent some out via a local
> medical center for analysis.  Not totally identifiable, but similar to a
> variety of common gyromitra like fungi (?) or so he was told.  After a lot
> of casual chat, we wondered whether fungi could be capable of biological
> transmutation of heavier unstable elements.  Well, since I have some thorium
> and uranium compounds, and a trusty lab Geiger counter, I volunteered to try
> some testing.  The results were strange, to say the least.  I have a second
> more extensive round brewing right now...
> 
> Enjoy...
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/spfaile/RadioFungi.html
> 
> NR
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 13 22:49:29 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
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Cc: "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
Subject: RE: Radioactive fungi!
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 01:56:39 -0400
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Hi Nick.

Sounds exciting!

Is it possible that the fungus, in the process of
fixing nitrogen, is somehow taking the radioactive
salt along with it and incorporating it into some
part of itself?

You should separate out the different components in
the growth media and see where the radioactive compound
is ending up.

My guess, is it's ending up in the spores (frown).

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Reiter [mailto:reit ezworks.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 8:48 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: Bruce Reiter; Lori Schillig
Subject: Radioactive fungi!



Gentlemen,

This is where biological transmutation of elements, nano-scale interactions,
"life energy", Reich's Oranur effect, LENR, and fungi get together.  It
started out as an experiment that was more or less a total shot in the dark,
but ended up producing an anomaly I really have serious trouble explaining -
within any framework.

Dr. Sam Faile got this one rolling.  A few months ago, a troublesome mold or
fungus got started in Sam's apartment in Cincinnati.  Being a lot like many
of us, he chose to do some experiments in culturing, to see just what this
stuff was.  After growing a quantity of it, he sent some out via a local
medical center for analysis.  Not totally identifiable, but similar to a
variety of common gyromitra like fungi (?) or so he was told.  After a lot
of casual chat, we wondered whether fungi could be capable of biological
transmutation of heavier unstable elements.  Well, since I have some thorium
and uranium compounds, and a trusty lab Geiger counter, I volunteered to try
some testing.  The results were strange, to say the least.  I have a second
more extensive round brewing right now...

Enjoy...

http://www.geocities.com/spfaile/RadioFungi.html

NR




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 14 03:52:28 2002
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Subject: Re: Radioactive fungi!
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Thanks, Keith,

>From what I can tell, and this is following suite with this next test round
as well, the rise in CPM seems to correlate with the point where a mat of
mycelae (is that spelled right?) forms, quite a while before spores develop.
But I am the first to admit that I do not, either by hobby or profession,
work with this stuff.  Molds, spores, and fungus, that is (apologies to Egon
Spengler).

One of the reasons I chunked and stirred the tubs in the end was to try to
disperse any stratification.  I will say that it DID appear as though the
higher CPM were right over the larger shredded portions of the fungal mat,
but was hard to tell.  So my guess is that it is being incorporated to some
extent.

Thorium is an interesting emitter, from what Sam found.  It is primarily
very energetic alpha, with some higher energy X-rays.  I need to figure this
in as well.

Best,

NR

----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: Nick Reiter <reit ezworks.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 1:56 AM
Subject: RE: Radioactive fungi!


> Hi Nick.
>
> Sounds exciting!
>
> Is it possible that the fungus, in the process of
> fixing nitrogen, is somehow taking the radioactive
> salt along with it and incorporating it into some
> part of itself?
>
> You should separate out the different components in
> the growth media and see where the radioactive compound
> is ending up.
>
> My guess, is it's ending up in the spores (frown).
>
> K.
>



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 14 07:08:58 2002
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From: BVicknair bjservices.com
Subject: Re: Fuel that is 50% water?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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I have followed this for a number of years.
The water provides some waste heat recovery, improvement of volumetric
efficiency and possibly a touch of Graneau mist explosions.
Usually additives are required for proper flame propagation.
bv

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 14 07:30:45 2002
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Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 07:29:16 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Radioactive fungi!
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Nick & Keith,

> Is it possible that the fungus, in the process of
> fixing nitrogen, is somehow taking the radioactive
> salt along with it and incorporating it into some
> part of itself?

Yes. I think the answer to both the increased radiation counts and the increased
decay rate (as indicated by the steep curve) will turn out to be a similar
situation  to that found with a common home test that the makers of sensitive
radiation detectors suggest.

The answer involves, not the uptake of nitrogen per se, but the natural
concentration of "radon daughters," present in many locations especially those
where shale or granite is a normal soil constituent. The concentration itself
can occur coincidentally with the uptake of nitrogen.

The simple test that can be found online - as well as decay curves that match
the one you found with the fungi. The test simply involves wiping a computer
screen with tissue and measuring the rate against the background.  You will
often find a similar concentration of radon daughters on computer screens caused
by electrostatic attraction, and wiping the screen will concentrate this
collection process so that you can get over several hundred CPM plus the similar
curve that indicates that you are collecting isotopes with a very short
half-life (namely radon daughters). The curve you found is almost proof-positive
of radon daughters. There used to be tables for this on the Aware site:
http://www.aw-el.com/

> This is where biological transmutation of elements, nano-scale interactions,
> "life energy",

Don't think this situation is related to biological transmutation so much as
radon, but Ed Storms recently provided a very interesting post on transmutation
research, a few months back, it's probably in the archive.

Regards,

Jones Beene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 14 11:46:59 2002
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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Radioactive fungi!  part deux
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Here is a little more information on  one mechanism whereby some plants and
other materials can and do "naturally" concentrate the small amount of
environmental radioactivity found in soils up to dangerous levels.

This information cames from several threads that appeared on the internet a few
years back when it  was discovered that the tobacco leaf itself, apart from its
other toxic properties, concentrates radon - more of a problem if phosphate
fertilizer has been utilized.

BTW this concentration of radioactivity is one of the reasons that chewing
tobacco (esp. if leafy, fresh and minimally processed) can be far more
carcinogenic than other forms.

The mechanism is as follows: Radon and other volatile species diffuse from the
ground due to the natural decay of uranium and/or thorium.  Soils with high
levels of shale, granite, or where phosphate fertilizers are used can be
radioactive (1-100 or more ppm of actinides) but this won't necessarily be
picked up by the standard (cheap) GM detectors - plus- in the decay chain, there
are certain volatile species (aka "daughters"): isotopes of radon, xenon,
polonium etc. whose half life may be 10^10 or more shorter than the U or Th.
These will most definitely show up on any GM detector when concentrated.

As the radon decays it of course becomes charged.  The charged atom will attach
to small airborne particles called Aiken particles.  The particle then assumes
the charge of the radon daughter.  Now, the underside of the tobacco leaf (or
possibly some part of the fungi) has many fine, hair like appendages which
results in a large surface area for charged particle attachment.  The charged
Aiken particles become attached to this "fuzz" and radioactivity becomes
concentrated this way.

Processing and air drying over extended periods can eliminate some of the
problem as radon daughters decay rapidly - seconds to days.

I suspect that fungi in question here also have some structural analog to the
fuzz structure of tobacco but maybe there may be an alternative mechanism for
radon concentration that is completely different than this one.

If your growth medium is high in phosphates, it most likely will have enough
actinides to start off the concentration process, even if the medium itself
doesn't register on your GM instrument (it will register on a laboratory
instrument - but also remember that radon is found in many unsuspecting
locations, especially basements in "coal country," natural gas...even in the
Capitol in D.C. (because of all the granite).

Poetic justice, I'd say.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 14 13:41:08 2002
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Subject: OFF TOPIC Helpful medical information site
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Your taxes paid for this. You might as well make good use of it:

http://medlineplus.gov/

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 14 13:57:31 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: UPDATE Anti Gravity [OFF TOPIC}
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 06:55:41 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  John Schnurer's message of Tue, 13 Aug 2002 20:59:23 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>	Fortunately the cats have always come back uninjured, sometimes with a
>		moth or mouse as a "gift".
BTW cats can be quickly cured of the habit of bringing home "gifts".
The trick is to get a shovel (or equivalent), and in plain sight of said cat, and while it is watching, pick up said gift with the shovel, and hurl it a great distance. The cat then quickly gets the message that it's "gifts" are not appreciated, and no more will be forthcoming.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 14 14:14:44 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: [OFF TOPIC] Cats and/or mice
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

 >       Fortunately the cats have always come back uninjured, sometimes with a
> >               moth or mouse as a "gift".
>BTW cats can be quickly cured of the habit of bringing home "gifts".

Why would you want to "cure" this? Don't discourage this behavior! I used 
to have a cat, and now I have mice instead. Cats are way better. You want 
them to catch mice. It is easier to deal with dead mice the cat brings in 
than dead mice in traps. That's why people domesticated cats in the first 
place. (Sort of domesticated -- it would be more accurate to say we 
arranged the world for their benefit.)

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 14 19:03:43 2002
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Subject: Re: Radioactive fungi!  part deux
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:02:24 -0400
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Jones,

Thanks very much for the enlightening details.  This is a wealth of
information, and I will copy and send it off to Sam - triggering some
discussion I'm sure.

When the current experiment gets further along, I will report.

Again, thank you.

NR


----- Original Message -----
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: Radioactive fungi! part deux


> Here is a little more information on  one mechanism whereby some plants
and
> other materials can and do "naturally" concentrate the small amount of
> environmental radioactivity found in soils up to dangerous levels.
>
> This information cames from several threads that appeared on the internet
a few
> years back when it  was discovered that the tobacco leaf itself, apart
from its
> other toxic properties, concentrates radon - more of a problem if
phosphate
> fertilizer has been utilized.
>
> BTW this concentration of radioactivity is one of the reasons that chewing
> tobacco (esp. if leafy, fresh and minimally processed) can be far more
> carcinogenic than other forms.
>
> The mechanism is as follows: Radon and other volatile species diffuse from
the
> ground due to the natural decay of uranium and/or thorium.  Soils with
high
> levels of shale, granite, or where phosphate fertilizers are used can be
> radioactive (1-100 or more ppm of actinides) but this won't necessarily be
> picked up by the standard (cheap) GM detectors - plus- in the decay chain,
there
> are certain volatile species (aka "daughters"): isotopes of radon, xenon,
> polonium etc. whose half life may be 10^10 or more shorter than the U or
Th.
> These will most definitely show up on any GM detector when concentrated.
>
> As the radon decays it of course becomes charged.  The charged atom will
attach
> to small airborne particles called Aiken particles.  The particle then
assumes
> the charge of the radon daughter.  Now, the underside of the tobacco leaf
(or
> possibly some part of the fungi) has many fine, hair like appendages which
> results in a large surface area for charged particle attachment.  The
charged
> Aiken particles become attached to this "fuzz" and radioactivity becomes
> concentrated this way.
>
> Processing and air drying over extended periods can eliminate some of the
> problem as radon daughters decay rapidly - seconds to days.
>
> I suspect that fungi in question here also have some structural analog to
the
> fuzz structure of tobacco but maybe there may be an alternative mechanism
for
> radon concentration that is completely different than this one.
>
> If your growth medium is high in phosphates, it most likely will have
enough
> actinides to start off the concentration process, even if the medium
itself
> doesn't register on your GM instrument (it will register on a laboratory
> instrument - but also remember that radon is found in many unsuspecting
> locations, especially basements in "coal country," natural gas...even in
the
> Capitol in D.C. (because of all the granite).
>
> Poetic justice, I'd say.
>
> Jones
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 15 08:07:01 2002
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:04:19 EDT
Subject: alfalfa to harvest gold
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Scientists use alfalfa plants to harvest nanoparticles of gold
Research News Release : 14-Aug-2002
< http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-08/su-sua081402.php >

  Ordinary alfalfa plants are being used as miniature gold factories that one
  day could provide the nanotechnology industry with a continuous harvest of
  gold nanoparticles. An international research team from the University of
  Texas-El Paso and Mexico advanced the work at the Stanford Synchrotron
  Radiation Laboratory.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 15 08:24:28 2002
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Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:20:24 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: alfalfa to harvest gold
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That's marvelous, but it might weaken the plants. Arthur Clarke predicted a 
similar technique in the novel "Imperial Earth" (Chapter 32) in which coral 
harvests gold from seawater. This takes so much metabolic effort the coral 
is left vulnerable to disease, so the technique is never cost effective. He 
based this on the fact that sponges and oysters can extract iodine and 
vanadium from sea water even though they occur in very low concentrations.

In this case, the alfalfa would be in a controlled environment, so even if 
it is a weak hybrid it would survive.

I have read about several projects in which plants (usually fast growing 
trees) have been used to extract heavy metals or petrochemicals from toxic 
waste sites. It is much cheaper & more effective than mechanical processing.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 15 11:36:34 2002
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Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 14:35:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Ammonia Absorption Air Conditoning
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	Dear People,

    Please:

	Q: Does anyone know    WHO manufactures

	Ammonia Absorption Air conditoning in  USA or for use in USA?

	OR

	A good reference for same


	SIZE is 7 ton or plus commercial

                Thank you,

                                JH

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 15 13:09:34 2002
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In a message dated 8/14/02 9:00:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes:


> BTW cats can be quickly cured of the habit of bringing home "gifts".
> The trick is to get a shovel (or equivalent), and in plain sight of said 
> cat, and while it is watching, pick up said gift with the shovel, and hurl 
> it a great distance. The cat then quickly gets the message that it's 
> "gifts" are not appreciated, and no more will be forthcoming.
> 

I have no doubt this will probably work --   my question is:  what is the 
likely very interesting story behind how this bit of feline understanding was 
acquired?

                                                                              
       Ken

--part1_190.b8a9d43.2a8d640e_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 8/14/02 9:00:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">BTW cats can be quickly cured of the habit of bringing home "gifts".<BR>
The trick is to get a shovel (or equivalent), and in plain sight of said cat, and while it is watching, pick up said gift with the shovel, and hurl it a great distance. The cat then quickly gets the message that it's "gifts" are not appreciated, and no more will be forthcoming.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I have no doubt this will probably work --&nbsp;&nbsp; my question is:&nbsp; what is the likely very interesting story behind how this bit of feline understanding was acquired?<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ken</FONT></HTML>

--part1_190.b8a9d43.2a8d640e_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 16 06:36:00 2002
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Subject: need help on spectrum analyzer decision
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:35:04 +0400
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Hello,

I am trying to find an used spectrum analyzer on the web, searching mostly on ebay.

I had actually bought a TEK 492 but CRT was dead and returned to seller. There are lot of HP models covering 22GHz, but I had never an experince with an spectrum analyzer and dont know critical points. I need some help and advise on selecting a proper device for my needs:

- high range
- high sensitivity
- less number of bands
- fast sweeping range with low resolution

TEK 492 said having 80dB dynamic range and also said -120dBm sensitivity. Is  these figures are correct? -120dBm is 1/1000 of 1pW!
I also saw from pictures that some HP models have very fine resolution. but on TEK 492 its is said resolution is
%20 of its selected bandwidth. I am not familiar fith spwec. analyzers and I not understand clearly what tey means.

I prefer your mails off the list.

hamdi ucar


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 16 15:16:38 2002
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Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:14:48 -0700
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Attention! Formerly disheartened garage LENR experimenters,

Dust off your mothballed electrolysis rig!

The CF electroplating technique announced by Dr. Frank Gordon's Navy research
team is said to be fast, simple and repeatable. Some paraphrased details,

Unlike the original Fleischmann-Pons experiment using a palladium rod, Dr.
Gordon uses an electroplating technique to speed things up. He uses palladium
chloride, heavy water and a copper wire mesh electrode. When a small current is
applied, the palladium plates out on the negative electrode along with
deuterium, resulting in very high deuterium loading PLUS the palladium phase
change necessary to see the F-P effect, but with excess heat coming in hours
instead of days or weeks. He is able to generate first the alpha AND then the
beta phases sequentially as the thickness of the palladium layer is growing.

The beta phase in palladium together with high loading appears to be the key to
the success of this technique.

Palladium chloride is available from:
http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/

Variation #1:
"Lithium Palladium Sol. No. 3" is also available from the same supplier and can
be added judiciously to supply Li as a catalyst in the Pd matrix.

Variation #2:
If you believe that R.Mills hydrino theory explains at least some CF results,
then Cesium Chloropallidite Sol. No. 3 which is also available from Bostick,
could possibly give even better results (cesium being a better Mill's catalyst
than lithium).

If the results Dr. Gordon claims are as repeatable as he says, it wouldn't
surprise me to see additional breakthroughs coming from someone's garage, even a
high school science fair project  ;-)

BTW it was difficult to restrain the urge to title this post "contem-plating the
naval"...

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 16 15:16:50 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OFF TOPIC] Cats and/or mice
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 08:10:00 +1000
Organization: Improving
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References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020813205202.17354E-100000 college.antioch-college.edu> <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020813205202.17354E-100000@college.antioch-college.edu> <9ugllusvltre6o9om8ti5lviutre13q5lq@4ax.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020814170701.02b7eef8@mail.DIRECTVInternet.com>
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:13:14 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]

>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
> >       Fortunately the cats have always come back uninjured, sometimes with a
>> >               moth or mouse as a "gift".
>>BTW cats can be quickly cured of the habit of bringing home "gifts".
>
>Why would you want to "cure" this? Don't discourage this behavior! I used 
>to have a cat, and now I have mice instead. Cats are way better. You want 
>them to catch mice. It is easier to deal with dead mice the cat brings in 
>than dead mice in traps. That's why people domesticated cats in the first 
>place. (Sort of domesticated -- it would be more accurate to say we 
>arranged the world for their benefit.)
>
>- Jed
It doesn't discourage them from catching mice, only from sharing their catch with you.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 16 17:29:54 2002
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Aug 16, 2002
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:13:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 16 Aug 02   Washington, DC

1. COOK BOOK: "FRESH AIR" OFFERS A RECIPE FOR STALE BALONEY.  Two
weeks ago, WN dumped as much cold water as one page can hold on
the anti-gravity nonsense stirred up by Nick Cook's goofy book,
"The Hunt for Zero Point."  We braced for sensational stories in
the National Enquirer and on Art Bell, but where does Cook turn
up?  Gasp, on NPR's Fresh Air.  "I am not a scientist," Nick Cook
admits in a brilliant understatement,"but I enlisted some help."
So who did he enlist?  "There are scientists working right on the
cutting edge...Dr.Hal Puthoff is pioneering this whole zero point
energy field..."  Well, there's a name we know.  One of the first
scientists to vouch for spoon-bender Uri Geller, Puthoff headed
the CIA's remote viewing program, and is said to have sent his
own mind to explore the surface of the planet Mercury (WN 11 Mar
94).  Guest host Barbara Bogaev, who also is not a scientist,
asks how anti-gravity machines work?  They all spin, Nick Cook
explains.  "Some theories say if you spin this zero point energy
field that exists all around us, some weird and magical things
start popping out, one of which is an anti-gravitational effect." 
There you have it -- an authoritative explanation on NPR. 

2. NASA WAGER: PASCAL IS ALIVE AND WELL AND LIVING IN HUNTSVILLE. 
Research managers at Marshall Space Flight Center still dream of
the payoff if the Podkletnov gravity shield worked.  Marshall
scientists who are willing to talk, give it no chance at all.

3. HERBAL HIGHS: "NATURAL" IS NOT A SYNONYM FOR SAFE.  The 1994
Dietary Supplement and Health Education Act, passed in response
to a massive lobbying campaign by the supplement industry, turned
the clock back a hundred years to the days of the traveling
snake-oil salesmen.  It exempted "natural" dietary supplements
from proof of safety, efficacy, or purity.  The only requirement
is that they not be promoted as preventing or treating disease
(WN 7 Jan 00).  Not to worry, backers such as Senator Tom Harkin
(D-IA) insisted.  If any problems show up, the FDA can take a
supplement off the market.  How does the FDA do this?  They must
go to court to demonstrate that the substance is harmful. "When
the bodies start piling up," as one FDA official put it.  Well,
in the case of ephedra, the pile of bodies is higher than anyone
knew.  The leading supplier of ephedra, Metabolife International,
was required to report all consumer complaints of bad reactions
to the FDA. But it now turns out that the company had more than
1300 undisclosed complaints involving ephedra, about 80 of which
involved death or serious injury.  Ephedra is a herbal stimulant,
sold on the internet as herbal "Ecstacy," the street drug it
chemically resembles.  The FDA has fought unsuccessfully to ban
ephedra for years.  The Department of Justice has now undertaken
a criminal investigation of Metabolife, but the real solution is
to repeal the 1994 Dietary Supplement and Health Education Act.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's an are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, bu they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 17 17:11:03 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: nanotechnology
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:07:51 +1000
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

In order for this technology to be economical, it needs to be self replicating. 

It is too small to see with the naked eye.

Imagine a "disease" that is so foreign to the immune system, that it hasn't a snowflake's hope in hell of coping with it.

Imagine a nanobot smart enough to replicate, but too stupid to know that it is replicating in the wrong environment (your body).

Imagine that this plague covers the entire planet.

Can you think of a more effective way of wiping out the ENTIRE human race?

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20020723-045503-5590r


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 18 11:54:34 2002
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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Subject: Re: nanotechnology
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 14:49:38 -0700
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Robin said:



> Hi,
>
> In order for this technology to be economical, it needs to be self
replicating.

But with needed raw materials, like hyperpure silicon
>
> It is too small to see with the naked eye.

And it can't gravel very far or fast.
>
> Imagine a "disease" that is so foreign to the immune system, that it
hasn't a snowflake's hope in hell of coping with it.

A heatlhy immune system has an inventory of everything that "belongs" and
attacks or encapsulates anything that "not-belong", ust like humans do.
>
> Imagine a nanobot smart enough to replicate, but too stupid to know that
it is replicating in the wrong environment (your body).

What will it use for raw material? Nature already has such stuff, called
viruses, prions, bacteria, etc. Replication doesn't require smarts.
>
> Imagine that this plague covers the entire planet.
>
> Can you think of a more effective way of wiping out the ENTIRE human race?
>
> http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20020723-045503-5590r
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> Competition provides the motivation,
> Cooperation provides the means.
>
I think we are safe for a while yet.
Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 18 12:32:18 2002
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Parksie's latest tirade
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Parksie's latest column so infuriated me that I wrote this with the 
intention of sending it to his boss.

Dear Sir;

      In my humble opinion, IMHO, the APS deserves better in a 
spokesperson than Robert Park. In his latest tirade he attacked Hal 
Puthoff, and spoon bending.

      It is redundant to mention that Hal Puthoff has a PhD in 
physics, or that he is the Patentee of a system for utilizing 
nonorthogonal energy, or that during his tenure at the Stanford 
Research Institute, Hal was instrumental in the development of what 
is now called Technical Remote Viewing, TRV. I think that the record 
of the intelligence bonanza secured for our government by TRV speaks 
for itself. It is enough to mention that he has coauthored a series 
of five articles which have been published in the Physical Review. 
Those articles speculate about the interaction of physical reality 
with the Energy of the Vacuum or Dirac's Zitterbewegung.

      Not content to stop with attacking Dr. Puthoff, Dr. Parks went 
on to attack spoon bending. For several years it was my privilege to 
be tutored by the Late Otto Schmitt. During our conversations, Otto 
related to me the story of Yuri Geller's visits to his laboratory. 
During those visits, Yuri instructed Otto in spoon bending. Now 
again, it is redundant to mention, that Otto had three PhD's, or his 
numerous inventions, or that he was a member of the National Academy 
of Sciences, it is sufficient to say that he retired as the Chairman 
of the University of Minnesota's Biophysics Department. I regard 
Otto's word as unimpeachable. He told me that with Yuri's help he 
massaged the spoon until it got warm and soft, and at that point it 
was possible to cause to bend freely. It is one of my greatest 
regrets, that I didn't find out about Hal Puthoff's work in the 
development of TRV until after Otto's death, he would have been very 
impressed.

      I hope to hear that you have replaced this boor.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 18 14:12:15 2002
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Subject: [Off Topic] Park frightened by mind-reading technology
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[I found this link on the Drudge Report... -- r]

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020817-704732.htm

NASA plans to read terrorist's minds at airports
By Frank J. Murray
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Airport security screeners may soon try to read the minds of travelers to
identify terrorists.

Officials of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration have told
Northwest Airlines security specialists that the agency is developing
brain-monitoring devices in cooperation with a commercial firm, which it
did not identify.

Space technology would be adapted to receive and analyze brain-wave and
heartbeat patterns, then feed that data into computerized programs "to
detect passengers who potentially might pose a threat," according to
briefing documents obtained by The Washington Times.

NASA wants to use "noninvasive neuro-electric sensors," imbedded in gates,
to collect tiny electric signals that all brains and hearts transmit.
Computers would apply statistical algorithms to correlate physiologic
patterns with computerized data on travel routines, criminal background and
credit information from "hundreds to thousands of data sources," NASA
documents say.

[...]

"We're getting closer to reading minds than you might suppose," says Robert
Park, a physics professor at the University of Maryland and spokesman for
the American Physical Society. "It does make me uncomfortable. That's the
limit of privacy invasion. You can't go further than that."

"We're close to the point where they can tell to an extent what you're
thinking about by which part of the brain is activated, which is close to
reading your mind. It would be terribly complicated to try to build a
device that would read your mind as you walk by." The idea is plausible, he
says, but frightening.

[...]

copyright © 2002 News World Communications, Inc.




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 18 19:45:40 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: nanotechnology
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:44:18 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Mike Carrell's message of Sun, 18 Aug 2002 14:49:38 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]

>Robin said:
>
>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> In order for this technology to be economical, it needs to be self
>replicating.
>
>But with needed raw materials, like hyperpure silicon

Which it is likely eventually to be able to produce, itself, from raw materials. (Assuming it is based on silicon).

>>
>> It is too small to see with the naked eye.
>
>And it can't gravel very far or fast.

That depends on what it hitches a ride on.
(Which could be pretty much any surface).

>>
>> Imagine a "disease" that is so foreign to the immune system, that it
>hasn't a snowflake's hope in hell of coping with it.
>
>A heatlhy immune system has an inventory of everything that "belongs" and
>attacks or encapsulates anything that "not-belong", ust like humans do.

True, but nevertheless, it is used to dealing with protein based assailants.
Just knowing that something is foreign doesn't necessarily mean that you are able to combat it.

>>
>> Imagine a nanobot smart enough to replicate, but too stupid to know that
>it is replicating in the wrong environment (your body).
>
>What will it use for raw material? 

That depends on what it is made of.

>Nature already has such stuff, called
>viruses, prions, bacteria, etc. Replication doesn't require smarts.

So much the worse. It means we will get into trouble sooner.


>>
>> Imagine that this plague covers the entire planet.
>>
>> Can you think of a more effective way of wiping out the ENTIRE human race?
>>
>> http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20020723-045503-5590r
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Robin van Spaandonk
>>
>> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>>
>> Competition provides the motivation,
>> Cooperation provides the means.
>>
>I think we are safe for a while yet.
>Mike Carrell
>
Yes, until someone actually gets the technology to work.

What are we going to do when every step we take, and everything we touch, picks up nanobots?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 18 20:47:05 2002
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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 23:44:50 EDT
Subject: Natural force fields to protoct Earth and its Citizens!
To: Roundtable7 yahoogroups.com, Wangus@yahoogroups.com, aelewis@provide.net,
        mediator mint.ocn.ne.jp, drboylan@sbcglobal.net, prj@mail.msen.com,
        vortex-l eskimo.com
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The natural force fields of positive conscious belief are very powerful, and 
a few individuals who believe in positive and lighter energies, and ideas, 
can create a natural spiritual positive force field for thousands of people 
to protect a small town and nation.  
 
I received an email from a Buddhist artist in Japan which gives numerical 
numbers for the energy levels of consciousness for a person and whole 
societies.  Most societies are around the range of 4.0 in terms of 
consciousness energy levels; whereas, after a person reads a sacred Buddhist 
text, the conscious energy level may raise to 14.  Therefore individuals such 
as Buddhist monks, artists, and positive thinkers, may have their positive 
conscious energy levels around 14, whereas the rest of society may be around 
4.  And if one enlightened person or artist meditates daily, then they can 
also raise the consciences of the community, and the audience of their 
thoughts, to a higher positive energy level, so that a few Buddhist monks or 
artists in a town, can raise the conscious energy level or mental and 
spiritual force field of the town from 4 to 14.   
 
A positive ethical Hollywood movie can raise the consciousness of the whole 
nation that watches the movie, whereas a negative violent movie can lower the 
consciousness of a whole nation, and therefore popular media is very 
important in developing powerfull positive force fields to protect nations 
and communities. 
In a sense, our modern Hollywood of today, is not protecting the USA cultures 
or the world cultures in terms of media force fields, when it focuses on 
negative violent Hollywood movies, since these media movies lowers the 
consciousness of the masses, and may weaken the will power and natural force 
fields that may defend and define Earths future for those societies.  I 
believe the Lord of the Rings movie just, made, has a positive energy force 
field near 14, and so do the books written by J.R.R. Tolkien.  Most of the 
citizens I have spoken with that watched the Lord of the Rings movie watched 
it several times, which indicates that most citizens want better positive 
movies like the Lord of the Rings, but Hollywood is not focusing on profit as 
motives to make movies presently, but rather politics, otherwise it would be 
making more positive movies and making more money, as well as defending the 
safety of Earth's future. 
 
In addition, to the natural force fields, which can be just as powerful as 
mechanical force fields, it should be helpful to develop small portable 
mechanical force fields for citizens and artists, to amplify their natural 
mental and spiritual force fields as well as stated above.  I am very 
interested in developing nanotechnologies, which may be used to easily create 
such portable force fields as mentioned above in rings, and pendants, by 
using nano-magnetic particles in a metal to pull in natural environmental 
energies, and then filter them through a nano amplifying circuit, with 
programmed variable frequencies in the nano-circuit, by a computer, which has 
a software program to tailor the frequencies signatures in the nano-circuit 
for each specific person based on their basic conscious goals, biological 
health, and spiritual energy signatures, which need to be amplified, and then 
set up to mask out all unhealthy or unwanted energies or frequencies form the 
environment.  In fact, Bell Labs just recently patented a nano-technology 
see-saw zero point energy device to pull in energies from the environment, to 
be used in nano-technologies to power them. Therefore, these above force 
field goals can presently be built in small rings and pendants, with present 
nanotechnologies, but such products are not commercially available yet.  
 
 
Respectfully,
 
 
Thomas Clark
<A HREF="mailto:tom rhfweb.com">tom@rhfweb.com</A>
<A HREF="http://www.rhfweb.com/personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>
    
    
    
    
    


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>The natural force fields of positive conscious belief are very powerful, and a few individuals who believe in positive and lighter energies, and ideas, can create a natural spiritual positive force field for thousands of people to protect a small town and nation.&nbsp; <BR>
 <BR>
I received an email from a Buddhist artist in Japan which gives numerical numbers for the energy levels of consciousness for a person and whole societies.&nbsp; Most societies are around the range of 4.0 in terms of consciousness energy levels; whereas, after a person reads a sacred Buddhist text, the conscious energy level may raise to 14.&nbsp; Therefore individuals such as Buddhist monks, artists, and positive thinkers, may have their positive conscious energy levels around 14, whereas the rest of society may be around 4.&nbsp; And if one enlightened person or artist meditates daily, then they can also raise the consciences of the community, and the audience of their thoughts, to a higher positive energy level, so that a few Buddhist monks or artists in a town, can raise the conscious energy level or mental and spiritual force field of the town from 4 to 14.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
 <BR>
A positive ethical Hollywood movie can raise the consciousness of the whole nation that watches the movie, whereas a negative violent movie can lower the consciousness of a whole nation, and therefore popular media is very important in developing powerfull positive force fields to protect nations and communities. <BR>
In a sense, our modern Hollywood of today, is not protecting the USA cultures or the world cultures in terms of media force fields, when it focuses on negative violent Hollywood movies, since these media movies lowers the consciousness of the masses, and may weaken the will power and natural force fields that may defend and define Earths future for those societies.&nbsp; I believe the Lord of the Rings movie just, made, has a positive energy force field near 14, and so do the books written by J.R.R. Tolkien.&nbsp; Most of the citizens I have spoken with that watched the Lord of the Rings movie watched it several times, which indicates that most citizens want better positive movies like the Lord of the Rings, but Hollywood is not focusing on profit as motives to make movies presently, but rather politics, otherwise it would be making more positive movies and making more money, as well as defending the safety of Earth's future. <BR>
 <BR>
In addition, to the natural force fields, which can be just as powerful as mechanical force fields, it should be helpful to develop small portable mechanical force fields for citizens and artists, to amplify their natural mental and spiritual force fields as well as stated above.&nbsp; I am very interested in developing nanotechnologies, which may be used to easily create such portable force fields as mentioned above in rings, and pendants, by using nano-magnetic particles in a metal to pull in natural environmental energies, and then filter them through a nano amplifying circuit, with programmed variable frequencies in the nano-circuit, by a computer, which has a software program to tailor the frequencies signatures in the nano-circuit for each specific person based on their basic conscious goals, biological health, and spiritual energy signatures, which need to be amplified, and then set up to mask out all unhealthy or unwanted energies or frequencies form the environment.&nbsp; In fact, Bell Labs just recently patented a nano-technology see-saw zero point energy device to pull in energies from the environment, to be used in nano-technologies to power them. Therefore, these above force field goals can presently be built in small rings and pendants, with present nanotechnologies, but such products are not commercially available yet.&nbsp; <BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
Respectfully,<BR>
 <BR>
 <BR>
Thomas Clark<BR>
<A HREF="mailto:tom rhfweb.com">tom@rhfweb.com</A><BR>
<A HREF="http://www.rhfweb.com/personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">    <BR>
    <BR>
    <BR>
    <BR>
    <BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 18 22:02:50 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
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Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 01:16:20 -0400
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Hi Robin.

>Yes, until someone actually gets the technology to work.
>What are we going to do when every step we take, and everything we touch,
picks up nanobots?
>Robin van Spaandonk

This is a good example of misapplication of technology.
I doubt you could engineer a mechanical device to be more
efficient and able to thrive in the environment than the
living cell. Millions of years in R&D makes it the most
perfect machine on the planet. Our tech pales in comparison.
Biological viruses, prions and bacteria already exist,
and no miniature socket set is required to work on them.

But, I like the new microengineered accelerometers.

Biting the apple...

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 19 19:02:33 2002
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From: thomas malloy
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:36:35

>Parksie's latest column so infuriated me that I wrote this with the 
>intention of sending it to his boss.
>
>Dear Sir;
>
>      In my humble opinion, IMHO, the APS deserves better in a spokesperson 
>than Robert Park. In his latest tirade he attacked Hal Puthoff, and spoon 
>bending.
<snip>

ROTFL!!

Please, please do send this to Park's boss.  I'm sure he'd get quite a
chuckle!






_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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>From: thomas malloy
>Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 12:36:35
>
>>Parksie's latest column so infuriated me that I wrote this with the 
>>intention of sending it to his boss.
>>
>>Dear Sir;
>>
>>      In my humble opinion, IMHO, the APS deserves better in a 
>>spokesperson than Robert Park. In his latest tirade he attacked Hal 
>>Puthoff, and spoon bending.
><snip>
>
>ROTFL!!
>
>Please, please do send this to Park's boss.  I'm sure he'd get quite a
>chuckle!


Why?

>
>
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
>http://www.hotmail.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 19 19:57:15 2002
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Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:55:57 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: 21 kev x-ray peak - Is this a  CF signature?
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Some observations of the implications of the Navy Lab report:
http://bitops.com/~mathias/tr1862/html/volume1/volume1.html

In assessing what constitutes adequate "proof" for any new phenomenon,
every scientist or experimenter has certain tolerance/comfort levels based on
the particular testing technique and available test equipment. For LENR, finding
a more "skeptic proof" testing method is possible if certain higher energy
phenomena such as x-rays or extreme UV are detectable. It is pretty hard for the
skeptic to explain away the presence of x-rays in low voltage experiments.
Better yet, high energy radiation, when found in addition to nuclear ash and OU
calorimetry provides three pronged evidence - very hard for the skeptic to
explain away.

Unfortunately, many CF experimenters have indeed made cursory checks for x-rays
but have failed to find them -or at least in anywhere near enough intensity to
explain their excess heat.  Now, it appears that one answer as to why this
absence should be the case is appearing.

In the past, it seems, experimenters may have been looking for the wrong kind
(spectrum) of x-rays, because for one thing, they were taught that nuclear
reactions typically produced radiation in the harder spectra - plus, the proper
equipment to find the moderate energy (soft) variety had been comparatively rare
and/or far more expensive or difficult to use effectively. The soft x-ray
spectrum is below the borderline threshold window for most detectors, and once
the standard GM detector showed nothing, the search was often abruptly dropped.

This is one of many reasons why the results from Dr. Frank Gordon's Navy team
seem exciting. Not only have they provided what looks like good calorimetry, but
also they have found helium ash, tritium and, unlike most other researchers,
have done soft x-ray testing, including spectroscopy work, and discovered a
range of radiation that simply shouldn't be there. Moreover, they have developed
a cost effective technique for finding soft x-rays.

Note: Although these are "soft" x-rays and they would not show up in chemical
reactions - and are even well above the EUV range that Randell Mills has
discovered for the hydrino, at the same time this radiation is many times less
energetic than the x-rays normally associated with nuclear reactions: in other
words, kind of in a gray area, except that this spectra has been associated with
tritium decay.

Few GM detectors have a decent threshold for recording10-30 kev photons outside
a CF cell, and in most experiments almost none of these photons would ever
escape the electrolysis cell to begin with, as they are stopped by glass and
thin metal, so one needs to locate the actual testing probe itself INTO the cell
directly adjacent to an active electrode.

To accomplish this, the Gordon team chose to use an old technique, x-ray film -
which is a real pain to arrange and locate very near the electrodes - and few
use film anymore, but in the hands of qualified technicians is said to be more
reliable than all but the best high-end spectrometers.

It is interesting that they seem to have found a fairly broad range of soft
x-radiation with a peak from the cell at around 21 Kev and these soft x-rays are
something like 70 sigma over background. This finding to me is major... but they
don't play it up much or even try to explain it very well.

Can anyone explain this radiation as anything other than evidence for nuclear
reactions, including some tritium decay? Can the film be fooled?

In scouring the internet for the significance of the exact peak, 21 kev, I was
led to medical journals where it is stated that a rare isotope of palladium,
manufactured in a reactor, is sometimes used in nuclear medicine because it
emits a particularly soft x-ray.

The isotope is Pd-103 and yes, you guessed it, this baby emits a 21 kev x-ray.
Exactly what the Gordon team appears to have discovered as a peak in their
electrolysis cell.

Could this isotope indeed be one of the significant contributors of CF excess
heat, or is it just limited to this particular design of CF cell, or is it
purely coincidental? Most importantly, if this isotope is the culprit, how was
it formed?

No neutrons are seen by the Navy team but helium and tritium are found. 103Pd
has a 17 day half life and is of course not found in any commercial palladium.
Palladium has natural isotopes at 102,104, 105, 106, 108 and 110.

I suppose one could get pretty wild imaginatively and say that 102Pd somehow
"borrowed" a neutron directly from a deuteron (see "Deuteron Tunneling at
electron-volt Energies". G.S. Collins, J.S. Walker and J.W. Norbury, Journal of
Fusion Energy, vol.9, pg.409 (1990)... after all, the 102Pd isotope (only 1% of
natural) can be described as abnormally "light"...or alternatively, maybe 106Pd
somehow fissions off a triton due to the matrix interactions with deuterium (Ha,
not likely) ,...or maybe if Pd-105 somehow absorbed a deuteron and then shed an
alpha, you could get to 103 by way of 107Ag and 105Rh, except that is, the
silver is stable at 107 and you would have a big .5 Mev rhodium beta that should
be showing up but isn't, so what could be the precise pathway?

Because of the high levels of tritium and almost total lack of free neutrons,
and no hard x-rays, is it possible that some more exotic and previously
undescribed reaction could be going on - perhaps a three body reaction that goes
something like: 102Pd somehow catalyzing a deuteron pair to fuse to form a
triton and then keeping the left-over neutron!!

Whatever the precise nuclear reaction(s) may turn out to be, one would hope that
other experimenters would make an effort to look for this particular soft x-ray
signature... if found elsewhere, one wonders if 21 kev should not be one of the
best markers, even indisputable proof, for at least one component (of perhaps
many) of the broader phenomenon known as cold fusion.

regards,

Jones Beene

BTW it should be possible to discover whether 102Pd could be the starting point
for the soft x-ray - that is, if the experimenter could obtain a sample
isotopically
enriched in 102.  It should then perhaps show a higher flux of 21 kev x-rays
than natural palladium under similar conditions.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 20 09:11:44 2002
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http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-954339.html

Rumors: Segway isn't really Ginger
By Graham Hayday
Special to ZDNet
August 19, 2002, 7:37 AM PT
URL: http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-954339.html

In the latest twist to the long-running Ginger saga, it's now being 
rumored that the two-wheeled device unveiled by inventor Dean Kamen last 
December isn't in fact the real deal.

According to a posting on the 'ginger-chat.com ' site, the Segway Human 
Transporter (SHT for short) cannot be the same thing as the much-hyped 
mystery invention originally known as Ginger and IT.

The claim revolves around inconsistencies between the description of 
Ginger contained in publicity for a book written by journalist Steve 
Kemper and the actual scooter-like invention. There are also some 
alleged patent irregularities.

The book is yet to hit the shelves, but back in January 2001 Kemper let 
it be known that such figures as Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos believed the 
invention would radically change the way we live.

Then Segway was unveiled--and the world said: 'Is that it?'

Since then, ginger-chat site administrator 'Spliff' has examined 
Kemper's book proposal in some detail, and has taken a fine-tooth comb 
to the patents Kamen has registered, and found significant evidence to 
suggest Segway is not the thing which blew Bezos and Jobs away.

<http://zdnet.com.com/i/ne/pt/2001/12/1203segway.jpg> Kemper's book 
proposal seems to suggest that Kamen began work on Segway in 1995, but 
no serious development took place until 1998. And yet a patent for a 
similar device was filed in 1994.

As Spliff writes: "US patent number 5,701,965 shows an early variation 
of the Segway Human Transporter, similar to the one later found in the 
newer Segway scooter patents. THIS patent was filed on May 27, 1994. And 
my timeline shows that Kamen first conceived GINGER around December 1995."

Another posting on the ginger-chat site points out that the series of 
images of the machine on the official Segway.com site changed subtley in 
June this year. Originally, there was a bloke standing on the 
now-familiar two-wheeled scooter now, there is one image which appears 
to be the same bloke floating above the ground.

This has reignited all the original speculation that the invention is 
some kind of personal hovercraft.

The conspiracy theorists also claim Bob Metcalfe, founder of 3Com and 
someone not known for participating in hoaxes, also claims to have seen 
Ginger--and says it's not Segway.

Metcalfe told the New York Times earlier this year: "Some months ago 
when speculation was running high, I said that Kamen's IT was more 
important than the Internet, but not as important as cold fusion, had 
cold fusion worked out. The IT I was talking about, which I did not 
disclose, was NOT Segway. That's all I can say." (See 
www.nytimes.com/2001/12/20/technology/circuits/20DIAR.html - 
registration re quired.)

However, this could still be more hot air. And the Ginger story has 
already contained more than enough of that.

So to conclude: there is no conclusion... but when/if there is one, 
we'll let you know.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 20 09:27:43 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: 21 kev x-ray peak - Is this a  CF signature?
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Jones Beene wrote:

>Unfortunately, many CF experimenters have indeed made cursory checks for 
>x-rays but have failed to find them -or at least in anywhere near enough 
>intensity to explain their excess heat.  Now, it appears that one answer 
>as to why this absence should be the case is appearing.
>
>In the past, it seems, experimenters may have been looking for the wrong 
>kind (spectrum) of x-rays . . .

That's a little unfair to past experimenters.

1. Many researchers *did* find soft x-rays before the Navy group did. Most 
of them used x-ray film. Years ago several Italian groups presented 
evidence as convincing as this.

2. It is difficult to detect these x-rays, because even a little 
electrolyte stops them. Researchers understood that years ago. They were 
not carelessly missing the x-rays, or looking in the wrong place. They knew 
the x-rays are difficult to detect, so many did not try.

Having said that, I agree the Navy people did a fine job.

- Jed

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Subject: Miniature Holographic Personal Force Field Chip Component Specifications !
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Specifications for the miniature (micro, nano, biological and quantum) chip   
      components of a prototype portable force field which may be the size of 
a bracelet that can be placed on the arm, leg, or a belt posted at 
http://www.rhfweb.com/ljpff1.html  or <A HREF="http://www.rhfweb.com/ljpshield.html">Privacy, Health, Force Field and 
Shielding Technologies</A>.

1. Energy and Wave Sensors, Collector Wave Guides, and Buffers. 

Wave and energy collector cones pass wave and energy information to the 
energy and wave sensors such as infrared and scalar magnetic wave sensors 
similar to high speed infrared video cameras.  

An energy buffer to filter out local high energies beyond the capacity of the 
Mueller magnetic motor to prevent the motor from burning out the magnets. 

The wave and energy information collected about the local energy matrix from 
the local environment and from the physical body of the user may be sent to 
the force field processor, data base chips and cold 
plasma/gas/biological/holographic energy wave generator chips by means of a 
biofeedback communication loop and data bus made of fiber optic materials or 
laser radio or infrared wave communication paths.   

2. Power Source    

Parallel Series of Miniature Over-Unity Fly Wheel Magnetic Mueller Motors or 
a similar type of alternative energy power source.      

3. Feedback Communication Loop And Data Bus    

Biofeedback communication loop and data bus made of fiber optic materials or 
laser radio wave communication paths.       

4. Programmable Force Field Wave Form Processor    

A series of wave, energy, and holographic media processor chips to analyze 
incoming energy and wave data, and to generate new wave, energy, and 
holographic data force field information.   A Fourier wave analyzer chip and 
fractal data compression chips may also be used to analyze and compress the 
incoming wave information.                          

5. Programmable Data Base, Operating System, and Software Program

Holographic biological wave information of the user and artificial 
intelligent expert wave processing rules shall be stored on a data memory 
chip to be used by the force field processors and wave generators, to 
analyze, and generate the structure of the holographic force field waves and 
energies. 

A miniature operating system and program, to synchronize the operations of 
the processor and the other chips as well as process information.      

An infrared communication loop to pass information from a portable computer 
to input and output user programming and biological data to a user program on 
a computer.            

Fractal image compression algorithms to compress and decompress data.  Image, 
wave, energy, media, and holographic processing and generation algorithms.

6. A Series of Force Field Wave Generator Chips   

A series of Tesla Vacuum and Gas bulb scalar wave generations chips to 
generate scalar magnetic gravity waves, and a series of ordinary generic wave 
generation chips such as Shrodinger or Dirac's wave modeling and generation 
algorithms to simulate and generate all forms of waves, energies, and energy 
holograms.  

7. Magnetic Wave Amplifier     

A series of magnets, and capacitors to amplify the waves and energies.

8. Wave Guides     

Wave guides and wave communication paths: 

A series of wave guides and channels such as wave cones and low and high 
frequency holographic infrared laser wave channels or wave tubes to carry and 
guide the biological wave and energy sensor and enhancer waves to the body of 
the user to preserve local bodily health, genetic, and biological frequencies 
and energies specific to the user by means of a biofeedback loop.      

A second wave guide to guide the counter jamming and filtering force field 
waves and energies, at a range of a few feet around the user to form a 
protective local holographic cold plasma force field energy bubble.     

9. Protective Metal Casings    

Protective inner metal casings with an internal anti-proton/matter force 
field to protect the components of the portable force field device and a 
protective outer metal casing to protect the user form the internal metal 
casing. I may consider using a niobium magnetic metal   or metglass with a 
anti-matter force field nanotechnology chemical structure or a simple 
miniature holographic wave force field generated by the inner force field 
device for the inner casings force fields, and a simple polished metal for 
the outer casing.   

Further Research and Development:   

Details of the digital and analogue logical chip and electrical components 
schematics, and overall mechanical schematics of the above components are 
being researched and developed.

www.rhfweb.com


Respectfully,


Radiation Health Foundation Inc. at www.rhfweb.com
President Thomas Clark
tom rhfweb.com
www.rhfweb.com\personal

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2><B>Specifications for the miniature (micro, nano, biological and quantum) chip&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; components of a prototype portable force field which may be the size of a bracelet that can be placed on the arm, leg, or a belt posted at http://www.rhfweb.com/ljpff1.html&nbsp; or </B><A HREF="http://www.rhfweb.com/ljpshield.html">Privacy, Health, Force Field and Shielding Technologies</A>.<BR>
<BR>
<B>1. Energy and Wave Sensors, Collector Wave Guides, and Buffers.</B> <BR>
<BR>
Wave and energy collector cones pass wave and energy information to the energy and wave sensors such as infrared and scalar magnetic wave sensors similar to high speed infrared video cameras.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
An energy buffer to filter out local high energies beyond the capacity of the Mueller magnetic motor to prevent the motor from burning out the magnets. <BR>
<BR>
The wave and energy information collected about the local energy matrix from the local environment and from the physical body of the user may be sent to the force field processor, data base chips and cold plasma/gas/biological/holographic energy wave generator chips by means of a biofeedback communication loop and data bus made of fiber optic materials or laser radio or infrared wave communication paths.   <BR>
<BR>
<B>2. Power Source</B> &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Parallel Series of Miniature Over-Unity Fly Wheel Magnetic Mueller Motors or a similar type of alternative energy power source.  &nbsp;&nbsp;  <BR>
<BR>
<B>3. Feedback Communication Loop And Data Bus</B> &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Biofeedback communication loop and data bus made of fiber optic materials or laser radio wave communication paths.       <BR>
<BR>
<B>4. Programmable Force Field Wave Form Processor</B> &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
A series of wave, energy, and holographic media processor chips to analyze incoming energy and wave data, and to generate new wave, energy, and holographic data force field information.   A Fourier wave analyzer chip and fractal data compression chips may also be used to analyze and compress the incoming wave information.                          <BR>
<BR>
<B>5. Programmable Data Base, Operating System, and Software Program<BR>
<BR>
</B>Holographic biological wave information of the user and artificial intelligent expert wave processing rules shall be stored on a data memory chip to be used by the force field processors and wave generators, to analyze, and generate the structure of the holographic force field waves and energies. <BR>
<BR>
A miniature operating system and program, to synchronize the operations of the processor and the other chips as well as process information.   &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
An infrared communication loop to pass information from a portable computer to input and output user programming and biological data to a user program on a computer.         &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Fractal image compression algorithms to compress and decompress data.&nbsp; Image, wave, energy, media, and holographic processing and generation algorithms.<BR>
<BR>
<B>6. A Series of Force Field Wave Generator Chips</B> &nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
A series of Tesla Vacuum and Gas bulb scalar wave generations chips to generate scalar magnetic gravity waves, and a series of ordinary generic wave generation chips such as Shrodinger or Dirac's wave modeling and generation algorithms to simulate and generate all forms of waves, energies, and energy holograms.  <BR>
<BR>
<B>7. Magnetic Wave Amplifier</B>  &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
A series of magnets, and capacitors to amplify the waves and energies.<BR>
<BR>
<B>8. Wave Guides</B>  &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Wave guides and wave communication paths: <BR>
<BR>
A series of wave guides and channels such as wave cones and low and high frequency holographic infrared laser wave channels or wave tubes to carry and guide the biological wave and energy sensor and enhancer waves to the body of the user to preserve local bodily health, genetic, and biological frequencies and energies specific to the user by means of a biofeedback loop.   &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
A second wave guide to guide the counter jamming and filtering force field waves and energies, at a range of a few feet around the user to form a protective local holographic cold plasma force field energy bubble.     <BR>
<BR>
<B>9. Protective Metal Casings</B> &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Protective inner metal casings with an internal anti-proton/matter force field to protect the components of the portable force field device and a protective outer metal casing to protect the user form the internal metal casing. I may consider using a niobium magnetic metal   or metglass with a anti-matter force field nanotechnology chemical structure or a simple miniature holographic wave force field generated by the inner force field device for the inner casings force fields, and a simple polished metal for the outer casing.   <BR>
<BR>
<B>Further Research and Development:</B>   <BR>
<BR>
Details of the digital and analogue logical chip and electrical components schematics, and overall mechanical schematics of the above components are being researched and developed.<BR>
<BR>
www.rhfweb.com<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Respectfully,<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Radiation Health Foundation Inc. at www.rhfweb.com<BR>
President Thomas Clark<BR>
tom rhfweb.com<BR>
www.rhfweb.com\personal<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_ce.2b47564f.2a93d79e_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 20 11:50:57 2002
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Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:45:53 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Miniature Holographic Moneymaking Idea!
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That reads like the output from one of those Cuisinart text generator programs where you hand it a vocabulary and some basic grammer templates and click 'frappe'. On the other hand, I suppose if you bought one it could help you be more effective and successful in helping that poor fellow from Nigeria get his $20M safely moved into a foreign account. Good luck on your secret mission!  ;)

- Rick Monteverde,
Honolulu Hawaii

>Specifications for the miniature (micro, nano, biological and quantum) 
>chip components of a prototype portable force field which may be the size of a
>  <...>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 21 05:38:55 2002
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: 21 kev x-ray peak - Is this a  CF signature?
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 08:35:20 -0700
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Jones has often presented critical comments on this forum. I want to
acknowledge his fairness in highlighting this item from the Navy report,
which I had missed in reading it. As a point of comparison, a 25" TV picture
tube is operated with and accelerating potential of about 27 kV and
generates X-rays which are absorbed by lead in the thick faceplate glass.

Mike Carrell



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 21 10:37:45 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: "Cold Fusion Lives" interview continues in EVWorld
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The second part of this interview has been published:

http://www.evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=393

Pretty good! Szpak & Mosier-Boss are top-notch. We have a couple of their 
papers on the site:

http://lenr.org/papers/pdf/MilesICCF-9.pdf
http://lenr.org/papers/pdf/TR1862Placeholder.pdf

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 21 14:19:05 2002
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
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Subject: Re: Antigravity researchers should publish
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:18:08 -0400
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On Monday 05 August 2002 20:58, Erikbaard aol.com wrote:
> Boeing statement:
>
> "The recent report that we are [involved in anti-grav research] is based on
> a misinterpretation of information. For instance, GRASP is not a codename
> for a current project but rather an acronym for a presentation entitled
> "Gravity Research for Advanced Space Propulsion," in which a Boeing
> engineer explains Podkletnov's theory and proposes that we should continue
> to monitor this work and perhaps even conduct some low-cost experiments to
> further assess its plausibility. No steps have been taken beyond this point
> by Boeing."

Magazine article referred to ongoing Boeing work in their 'Phantom
Works'.  If this was going on, as one who has worked with the government,
I say to you that such work would be classified above top secret.  Even
the name would be 'black', and denyability would be the order of the day.

Standing Bear
rockcast earthlink.net

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 22 01:04:46 2002
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Dale Pond posted this URL on the SVP group. They have quite the 
collection of links. 
http://www3.cosmiverse.com/news/space/0802/space08140201.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 22 08:12:00 2002
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	Mail to Hamdi Ucar is bouncing

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  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
  Send mail to mime docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

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	Here is the error message.


This Message was undeliverable due to the following reason:

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 23 09:09:27 2002
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Subject: test  Hmmmm  you can read it if you want... it should test
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	Test

	

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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 10:24:57 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: 21 kev x-ray peak - Is this a  CF signature?
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A couple of further thoughts and speculation  on some of the
implications of the excellent Navy Lab CF report:
http://bitops.com/~mathias/tr1862/html/volume1/volume1.html

To recap a tentative conclusion that can be drawn from the report (although the
authors have not gone this far):

*A peak soft x-ray emission has been documented at 21 kev and no other
explanation serves to identify this radiation signature better than the
well-known
emission of 103 Pd, which is not a natural isotope and must have been created
during the operation of the cell.*

>From that point on, the speculation and possible answers are increasingly
controversial,  but let's assume that if there were any free neutrons at all in
the cell, then the Navy team would have found some of them - consequently, can
we find some plausible way that the 103Pd could have been created
from natural Pd isotopes:
1) without any free neutrons
2) without the characteristic high energy absorption-gamma (~.5 Mev)
3) with tritium and helium ash and with a 21 kev photon peak being the best
evidence of what happened.

What follows is admittedly a most far-out fringe speculation that has emerged
from an ongoing dialog with Fred Sparber based on Mills' hydrino theory.

First off, I thought someone might challenge this following conclusion, made at
the end of the previous post: "Because of the high levels of tritium and almost
total lack of free neutrons and no hard x-rays, is it possible that some more
exotic and previously undescribed reaction could be going on - perhaps a
three-body reaction that goes something like: 102Pd somehow catalyzing a
deuteron pair to fuse to form a triton and then keeping the left-over neutron"

Now, on the surface this wouldn't seem to be plausible at all because if a
triton were fused in  the typical D+D reaction (and this happens all the time
with a threshold of 35 kev), then we don't have a neutron left over - it is a
proton.

However that outcome would not necessarily be the case if one of the deuterons
was "shrunken" far below ground state.

Here is where the path gets very slippery because even R. Mills doesn't seem to
acknowledge the possibility of the deuterino (as opposed to a hydrino) any more,
at least not publicly  (perhaps it is an intellectual property issue for him).
Several members of this forum don't believe in the Mills' BLP theory but believe
in cold fusion - but many observers believe that both phenomena could be related
to some degree.

Therefore,  for the sake of argument, let's ask what might happen if a deuteron
begins to shrink far below ground state in the heavily loaded palladium matrix
of a cold fusion cell.

I think that one way this reaction could play out is that you would have a
"deuterino deuteride," rather than the bare deuterino in the Pd matrix -  i.e. a
deuterino and its fractionally charged electron paired with a normal deuteron,
and this pair would somehow react occasionally with palladium in a three body
reaction to give the triton and 103Pd but without the free neutron or gamma.
The absorption-gamma is absent because of the energy depleted by the shrinkage.
The deuterino itself would have to be very near to "collapse"
i.e. near the state where it wants to become 2 neutrons by capturing its own
"light electron" or some other light lepton from the matrix. Stepwise shrinkage
down to such a level may even be accelerated in a solid matrix.

One of the many problems with this accounting (even if there is such a thing as
the deuterino) is that 102 Pd is only 1% of natural palladium, so unless it
enters into the reaction preferentially, there should be a lot of unseen
isotopic shifts.

But, it is not unusual for one isotope to have a cross section for neutrons that
is much higher - for instance, with 10 boron the ratio is greater than 500,000
to one, but does this fact alone also indicate that "deuterino tunneling," if it
exists, would be likewise favored by a particular isotope?  102 Pd does have a
very unusual resonance curve for neutrons:
http://hpngp01.kaeri.re.kr/cgi-bin/w3graf?n=Pd102&l=n&m=102
You will notice that at neutron energy of a few hundred ev, the cross section
spikes to over a 1000 barns. Would this spike relate in the same manner to
deuterino tunneling?

OK, let's leave that bit of wild speculation to fester, or until someone can
come up with a more promising alternative hypothesis, but let's not forget that
no matter how the 103 Pd got there, it could be there...at least, because of the
excellent work of the Gordon team, it is fair to assume that it could be real.
So, let's continue realizing that:

1) Many if not most theorists believe there is probably more than one LENR
reaction responsible for the excess heat in CF experiments, probably several low
probability reactions that go on simultaneously.

2) However, if ANY nuclear reaction, any bona fide nuclear reaction at all, can
be established beyond reasonable scientific doubt, then the whole field of LENR
would stand to benefit significantly from both the standpoint of respectability
and more importantly from the standpoint of *funding* vis-a-vis the more
established fields.

To that end, and given the tentative finding of the Navy research team that a
peak soft x-ray can be found at 21 kev and the belief that nothing can explain
this exact radiation signature better than the well-known emission of 103 Pd,
then it seems that an expedited protocol for experimentation is obvious. If
several, or several dozen, experiments corroborate the Navy finding....?

I say "expedited" because-  if one dispenses with calorimetry and uses the basic
electroplating setup of the Navy team, then this experiment INCLUDING primitive
x-ray spectroscopy can be carried out for not much more expense than taking the
family to a pro football game.

Although few standard radiation detectors have a decent threshold for 21 kev
photons because of the thickness of the window or tube wall, you can work
wonders with a few $dollar's worth of dental x-ray film, or a few photodiodes
and filters PLUS, unlike what the Gordon team did, you don't have to worry about
the tricky placement of the film inside the cell, adjacent to an electrode.

This is possible because of 103 Pd having a 17 day half-life.

That outcome, if it is indeed the reality of the present phenomenon, was
apparently not anticipated by the Navy team, as they chose the difficult
placement technique of the film inside the cell - but if 103Pd is the culprit,
its relatively long half-life insures that the setup proposed here can be one
helluva lot simpler - as you can dispense with the complicated interior film
placement altogether.

Basically, all one needs to do is to start the Pd plating reaction going for
several hours. A thermocouple can announce the onset of excess heat. Shortly
thereafter, the experimenter can shut off the cell, remove the negative
electrode, wrap it with x-ray film for a predetermined time, or use a homemade
photodiode detector and then test. Of course - a real x-ray spectrometer would
be nice... if you have one sitting around. Many permutations of this basic
protocol are obvious.

The question of whether 103 Pd is involved in CF should be relatively easy to
prove or disprove beyond reasonable scientific doubt !!

If 103 Pd is involved, then the whole field of CF could benefit because there
will be absolute PROOF of a real nuclear reaction, not muddied by
eviquivocation -as the skeptics still claim some delayed chemical reaction
buildup, or some tritium contamination issue. Although many CF proponents have
been saying that we already have enough proof now, there are still too many
doubters, far too many, among the general scientific community.

No honest skeptic can rationalize away a clear x-ray signal which is found at
the precise signature of a well-known non-natural emitter, especially should it
be found by many different experimenters.

In an ironic twist, we may owe this bit of potential luck (i.e. that a
well-known marker with a unique x-ray signature just happens to be a palladium
isotope) to the haunting fear of many middle aged men - prostate cancer... (that
is where 103 Pd is used as the preferred chemotherapy treatment).

The bottom-line remains: whatever the precise nuclear reaction(s) found by the
Navy team may turn out to be, one would hope other experimenters would make an
effort to look for this particular soft x-ray signature, or any other, in their
own work... if found in a wide number of varying experiments, then 21 kev could
turn out to be the best identifier, even indisputable proof, for at least one
component of cold fusion.


Regards,

Jones Beene


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 23 14:28:22 2002
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Aug 23, 2002
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 16:31:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 23 Aug 02   Washington, DC

1. MISSILE DEFENSE: RUMSFELD DISCOVERS CRUISE MISSILES.  So far
we've spent maybe $95B trying to stop ballistic missiles, but
it's not going too well (WN 14 Jun 02).  The solution?  Find a
missile that's easier to stop.  According to the Washington Post,
Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld sent the White House a classified
memo warning that cruise-missile technology is the really big
threat these days.  The low-flying, air-breathing missiles are
hard to detect and hard to distinguish from friendly aircraft,
but the technology to defeat them already exists.  All it would
take is a lot of money.  Hey, this is looking better and better.
The prospect of an entire new defense system that costs a bundle
is likely to prove irresistible to the superhawks in Congress. 

2. AIRPORT SECURITY: DOES NASA PLAN TO READ YOUR MIND?  A story
on the front page of Saturday's Washington Times claimed NASA is
working on a device to read terrorists minds at airports.  NASA
would use "non-invasive neuro-electric sensors" to pick signals
up from the heart and brain.  Sigh, the only thing worse than
polygraphs, which don't work, would be brain scanners that do. 
But does anyone really believe NASA could build such a device? 
Gimme a break, NASA can't read its own mind.  The NASA News Room
person insisted they knew nothing about it, but the WN researcher
persisted and found a NASA press release denying the WT story. 

3. HERBAL LOWS: $MULTIBILLION INDUSTRY THREATENED BY TESTING. 
Sales of herbal medications have soared since passage of the 1994
Dietary Supplement and Health Education Act, which allows natural
supplements to be marketed without proof of safety, efficacy or
purity.  Mindful of the popularity of alternative health claims,
Congress showers money on NIH's Center of Complementary and
Alternative Medicine.  But a remarkable thing has happened.  NIH
has begun testing many of the popular herbal medications.  The
most important discovery in the history of medicine was the
randomized double-blind test.  It allows us to find out what
works and what doesn't.  So far, herbals are in the "doesn't"
category: St. John's Wort doesn't relieve depression, but it does
interfere with some cancer drugs; echinacea doesn't ward off
colds and flu; ephedra causes frequent injuries and even death;
and this week we learn that ginkgo biloba doesn't enhance memory
in people over 60.  There's another one, but I can't remember it.

4. FREE ENERGY: THE PATENT OFFICE DECIDES TO TAKE ANOTHER LOOK. 
In April, we reported that Patent 6,362,718 had been issued for a
Motionless Electromagnetic Generator that "extracts energy from a
permanent magnet."  We are happy to report that the Patent office
will now test and certify patent examiners on a regular basis 
and will change the way it recruits examiners.  Oh yes, and the
Patent Commissioner ordered a Reexamination of Patent 6,362,718.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 24 14:31:45 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 07:29:52 +1000
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In reply to  Akira Kawasaki's message of Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:26:52 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>4. FREE ENERGY: THE PATENT OFFICE DECIDES TO TAKE ANOTHER LOOK. 
>In April, we reported that Patent 6,362,718 had been issued for a
>Motionless Electromagnetic Generator that "extracts energy from a
>permanent magnet."  We are happy to report that the Patent office
>will now test and certify patent examiners on a regular basis 
>and will change the way it recruits examiners.  Oh yes, and the
>Patent Commissioner ordered a Reexamination of Patent 6,362,718.

If they are going to go to lengths to squash this, maybe it does work after all. :)

[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 25 13:47:21 2002
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Subject: Fw: David Bergman's Spinning Ring Particle Model
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See:

http://www.commonsensescience.org/
>
> You wrote:
> > Fred,
> >
> > > As I see it, when you treat the proton and electron as circles that can
> > interact and
> > > exchange energy/mass, thus radius, there is room for Mills' "fractional orbit"
> > Hydrino
> > > to exist and be catalyzed by the field of various catalyst atoms.
> >
> > Using this model, when the hydrino/deuterino "shrink," do both the nucleus and
> > shell loose mass/energy in equal amounts?
>
> I propose that the three ~312 Mev Meson Rings (Three Bound ~560 Mev Kaon Rings with
a
> radius of ~ 4.6E-18 Meters, a radius 1/624 that of the Electron) in the Proton will
> donate energy to the Electron Ring and Increase ever so slightly in radius while the
Electron Ring will Gain
> Energy and Shrink slightly in radius according to R = kq^2/Energy, with a slight
mass increase, and concurrently the "orbit radius" will decrease according to the loss
of Potential or Binding Energy, i.e., the energy gain Mills claims.
> >
> > IOW, if the hydrino drops 27.2 ev below ground state, is 13.6 ev contributed by
> > the electron and 13.6 by the proton?
>
> I choose the proton.  Something in nature has to provide the Potential energy. No?
> >
> > Does this model say that charge and mass are directly related - so that each
> > will become fractionally charged as each drops mass?
>
> No, Charge is Invariant.
> >
> > Is 13.6 a quanta for shrinkage or it just for hydrogen? Do other elements
> > shrink?
>
> The "Hydrogenic Electron Potential Energy" for each totally stripped nucleus is
found
> to be 13.6 Z^2 ev. Thus 54.4 ev for He, 122.4 ev for Li, and so on.
>
> Fred


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Aug 25 20:21:36 2002
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Subject: Re: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty company
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 00:17:41 -0400
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   I feel that what we are going to get instead is a series of 
command decisions on nuclear waste.   It will have to be this way
or nuclear power here will be forever hamstrung by modern day
Luddites.  It may even come to declaring martial law under the
internal security and FEMA acts.  It must be understood that we
need energy independence for our security.  Those who would
undermine this must be thought of no different than the Saudi
Al Qaedas that committed terrorism againt our nation last Sept 11th.
They should be considered that way by the new Homeland
Security Department.  I forsee the building of many new camps
like in Cuba at Guantanamo to house these sorts.
   Nuclear waste is one of the most overblown so called menaces
in the history of man.  Typical item of waste....a glove used to
work in certain areas of a facility.  The half life of the miniscule
amounts of radioactive material on a glove typically will be around
a statistical average of less than a few seconds.  If this waste were so
'hot', one could use it for fuel for secondary recovery operations.  I
suggested this very idea to a physics professor of mine when I 
was in engineering school at California State University back in
the 1970's.  He told me about the above, and that really the stuff should
be better segregated.  That done, the real storage requirements would
shrink dramatically.  The present controversy over liability and insurance
is just a canard to mask ulterior motives to destroy our energy 
independence and our ability to re-attain it..  It is, in short, treason.
     Energy obstructionists will
always seek to delay nuclear developement even on the most
specious of grounds.  If successful here, they will not stop nuclear
developement in the world, rather they will only stop SAFE nuclear
progress.  Our surrendur of the lead in this field will be to the North
Koreas and Iraqs of the world.  Their engineers are now and will in the future
be ordered on pain of dismemberment by their governments to
always put military considerations first, energy production second,
and safety dead last.  It will be they who build their own economies
of nuclear energy on the backs of our failure of will to stop traitorous
obstructionists here.
   There is a further danger, if feel, from another area, completely
overlooked by those fixated on the spurious issue of safety.  That is
from the new experiments due to come on line in a few years that
will put more and more intense energy in smaller and smaller spaces.
One of the principles taught to all beginning engineering students is
'activation energy'.  That is to say potential energy releases often
require a certain amount of energy to 'get them going'.   The larger
the release, often the larger the 'activation energy'.  With the hydrogen
fusion device, a small fission device is required.  In turn, the fission
device in its turn requires a chemical device of sufficient force to bring
about critical confinement.  I feel that there are other forces in nature
that we will in time discover.  Maybe more than a few.  We have no
practiical devices now based on the strong nuclear force or weak
nuclear force for that matter.  How about intranuclear forces at the
quark level that we may at present not even know exist.  Seems the
smaller the particle from which forces arise that we deal with, the
progressively and exponentially larger forces we discover.  We may
discover vast new energies at intranuclear particle sizes that we
may be little prepared to deal with.  We may even find that time may
have other dimensions as well.  Our universe may be very strange
indeed.
   Suppose our assumptions about
microscopic black holes generated in future accelerators are wrong
and they do not 'evaporate' but grow instead.  What about exotic
or strange matter.  It might be better to first develope space travel
using our existing nuclear technologies and construct the labs for
investigating these 'hot' sciences in some safe place....like beyond
the Oort cloud.  It is only a fool that mixes his destruction in his
own garage or home.
    I really pray that Mr Naudin's experiments lead to practical 
devices.  They would make this developement of space for hot
science research a more attainable reality.   For if after some
failed experiment generates strange matter and the ground beneath
your feet suddenly sinks 3500 miles in the space of a microsecond,
it will be too late.

Standing Bear








On Sunday 31 March 2002 14:48, Edmund Storms wrote:
> Matthew, I agree with you, nuclear energy is better in many respects
> compared to fossil fuel.  If the US had adopted a safe and efficient
> reactor design like France and Canada, if we had made a competent effort
> to process the fuel rods and dispose of the resulting radioactive
> material, if we had done this using the philosophy that the job needed to
> be done right rather than cheap, I would also argue for more nuclear
> energy.   However, this was not done and, as a result, we have a very
> dangerous mess.  Furthermore, the philosophy applied by business in this
> country will guarantee that any new technology will always result in a
> mess, which will only be cleaned up after a sufficient fraction of the
> population is killed or injured.  This being the situation, I think that
> any further development of nuclear energy in the US, no matter how well
> argued or how good the design looks on paper, would be very unwise.
> Instead, we should look to conservation and renewable sources of energy as
> our salvation, not the least of which is cold fusion and zero-point
> energy.  The very fact that the US has fought these latter energy sources
> demonstrates that we as a country are not wise enough to handle something
> so dangerous as fission energy.
>
> Ed
>
> Matthew Rogers wrote:
> > Vor,
> >         After reading this web page, its articles and links, I can only
> > conclude,
> > Hurrah, finally somebody who knows what their talking about.
> >
> > This seems to be an accurate portrayal of the technology needed to make
> > things safe, and not insane.
> >
> > Matthew Rogers
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com]
> > Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 1:29 PM
> > To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> > Subject: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty company
> >
> > This is insane, but interesting:
> >
> > http://www.atomicengines.com/index.html
> >
> > "Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. is a feisty company with a couple of
> > governing
> > thoughts." "A couple of governing thoughts" means they are obsessed,
> > like
> > CF fanatics, only they want to use uranium fission.
> >
> > - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 26 04:54:29 2002
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To: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Cc: <Vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Pd Catalyzed Deuterino Formation and Cold Fusion
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Try this Jones,

The predominant 21 Kev x-ray line seems to come from the Pd itself, ( See
http://ie.lbl.gov/xray/  for the Pd x-ray spectra).

This suggests that on or near the Pd surface, one of the K electrons of the Pd is
taken up by the proton end of a deuteron,  forming a Deuterino (D*) (as suggested by
Randy Mills' Hydrino (H*) formation:

 www.blacklightpower.com

with the concurrent release of the 21 Kev Pd x-ray as an electron falls in to fill the
K shell.

Now you have a chance for the reaction:

D* + D ---> T + H* +  Energy  (Heat)

And so on, with the Pd acting as a catalyst, Or?   :-)

Frederick



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Subject: Fw: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty company
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Hi Jed and Ed,

subject: Nuclear Energy

Physicist in the Superphenix preliminary design team, (the 1220MWe =
French Breeder, killed by the Greens and our last government, although =
this reactor was in a very good shape) I spent almost 3 years at the =
CNAM, once retired, trying to duplicate, to improve the cold fusion =
experiments and that, without success (see the web site of my friend =
J.L. NAUDIN ). Of course, I am following the work of my friend Jacques =
DUFOUR (CNAM).

Dear Jed and dear Ed, by the mid of this century, one forecasts more =
than 8 billions people on this earth and, of course, they will desire to =
have the same level of life than we western people do have...Do you hope =
to solve the energy problem with windmills farms and others green =
dreams? Today, the only credible answer is nuclear energy (a quasi =
renewable energy with the fast reactors), unless we are ready to put =
more and more CO2 in the atmosphere...and bonjour  the catastrophic =
climate changes..
.
I would like to add this about the nuclear ashes which are the main =
point in the nuclear refusal of many of us. Do you know that 1.4 =
billions ot tons of uranium are dissolved in the oceans? ( 3.3mg per =
cubic meter of sea water, and I do not speak on Potassium 40, 4 times =
more abundant than uranium). You can dissolve all the nuclear ashes we =
have made since Marie Curie and Henri Becquerel in the sea without =
modifying the natural radioactive level in a meaningful way! Of course, =
we can do it better in Yucca Mountains for example with appropriate =
containments...

Human activity produces a lot of goods but also unavoidable troubles. =
Let us do not choose a wrong way to solve the energy problem...waiting =
for the cold (or hot) fusion energy!=20

You have understood that I agree completely with Standing Bear...

PPC


----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Standing Bear" <rockcast net-link.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 6:17 AM
Subject: Re: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty company


>=20
>    I feel that what we are going to get instead is a series of=20
> command decisions on nuclear waste.   It will have to be this way
> or nuclear power here will be forever hamstrung by modern day
> Luddites.  It may even come to declaring martial law under the
> internal security and FEMA acts.  It must be understood that we
> need energy independence for our security.  Those who would
> undermine this must be thought of no different than the Saudi
> Al Qaedas that committed terrorism againt our nation last Sept 11th.
> They should be considered that way by the new Homeland
> Security Department.  I forsee the building of many new camps
> like in Cuba at Guantanamo to house these sorts.
>    Nuclear waste is one of the most overblown so called menaces
> in the history of man.  Typical item of waste....a glove used to
> work in certain areas of a facility.  The half life of the miniscule
> amounts of radioactive material on a glove typically will be around
> a statistical average of less than a few seconds.  If this waste were =
so
> 'hot', one could use it for fuel for secondary recovery operations.  I
> suggested this very idea to a physics professor of mine when I=20
> was in engineering school at California State University back in
> the 1970's.  He told me about the above, and that really the stuff =
should
> be better segregated.  That done, the real storage requirements would
> shrink dramatically.  The present controversy over liability and =
insurance
> is just a canard to mask ulterior motives to destroy our energy=20
> independence and our ability to re-attain it..  It is, in short, =
treason.
>      Energy obstructionists will
> always seek to delay nuclear developement even on the most
> specious of grounds.  If successful here, they will not stop nuclear
> developement in the world, rather they will only stop SAFE nuclear
> progress.  Our surrendur of the lead in this field will be to the =
North
> Koreas and Iraqs of the world.  Their engineers are now and will in =
the future
> be ordered on pain of dismemberment by their governments to
> always put military considerations first, energy production second,
> and safety dead last.  It will be they who build their own economies
> of nuclear energy on the backs of our failure of will to stop =
traitorous
> obstructionists here.
>    There is a further danger, if feel, from another area, completely
> overlooked by those fixated on the spurious issue of safety.  That is
> from the new experiments due to come on line in a few years that
> will put more and more intense energy in smaller and smaller spaces.
> One of the principles taught to all beginning engineering students is
> 'activation energy'.  That is to say potential energy releases often
> require a certain amount of energy to 'get them going'.   The larger
> the release, often the larger the 'activation energy'.  With the =
hydrogen
> fusion device, a small fission device is required.  In turn, the =
fission
> device in its turn requires a chemical device of sufficient force to =
bring
> about critical confinement.  I feel that there are other forces in =
nature
> that we will in time discover.  Maybe more than a few.  We have no
> practiical devices now based on the strong nuclear force or weak
> nuclear force for that matter.  How about intranuclear forces at the
> quark level that we may at present not even know exist.  Seems the
> smaller the particle from which forces arise that we deal with, the
> progressively and exponentially larger forces we discover.  We may
> discover vast new energies at intranuclear particle sizes that we
> may be little prepared to deal with.  We may even find that time may
> have other dimensions as well.  Our universe may be very strange
> indeed.
>    Suppose our assumptions about
> microscopic black holes generated in future accelerators are wrong
> and they do not 'evaporate' but grow instead.  What about exotic
> or strange matter.  It might be better to first develope space travel
> using our existing nuclear technologies and construct the labs for
> investigating these 'hot' sciences in some safe place....like beyond
> the Oort cloud.  It is only a fool that mixes his destruction in his
> own garage or home.
>     I really pray that Mr Naudin's experiments lead to practical=20
> devices.  They would make this developement of space for hot
> science research a more attainable reality.   For if after some
> failed experiment generates strange matter and the ground beneath
> your feet suddenly sinks 3500 miles in the space of a microsecond,
> it will be too late.
>=20
> Standing Bear
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Sunday 31 March 2002 14:48, Edmund Storms wrote:
> > Matthew, I agree with you, nuclear energy is better in many respects
> > compared to fossil fuel.  If the US had adopted a safe and efficient
> > reactor design like France and Canada, if we had made a competent =
effort
> > to process the fuel rods and dispose of the resulting radioactive
> > material, if we had done this using the philosophy that the job =
needed to
> > be done right rather than cheap, I would also argue for more nuclear
> > energy.   However, this was not done and, as a result, we have a =
very
> > dangerous mess.  Furthermore, the philosophy applied by business in =
this
> > country will guarantee that any new technology will always result in =
a
> > mess, which will only be cleaned up after a sufficient fraction of =
the
> > population is killed or injured.  This being the situation, I think =
that
> > any further development of nuclear energy in the US, no matter how =
well
> > argued or how good the design looks on paper, would be very unwise.
> > Instead, we should look to conservation and renewable sources of =
energy as
> > our salvation, not the least of which is cold fusion and zero-point
> > energy.  The very fact that the US has fought these latter energy =
sources
> > demonstrates that we as a country are not wise enough to handle =
something
> > so dangerous as fission energy.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > Matthew Rogers wrote:
> > > Vor,
> > >         After reading this web page, its articles and links, I can =
only
> > > conclude,
> > > Hurrah, finally somebody who knows what their talking about.
> > >
> > > This seems to be an accurate portrayal of the technology needed to =
make
> > > things safe, and not insane.
> > >
> > > Matthew Rogers
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com]
> > > Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 1:29 PM
> > > To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> > > Subject: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty company
> > >
> > > This is insane, but interesting:
> > >
> > > http://www.atomicengines.com/index.html
> > >
> > > "Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. is a feisty company with a couple of
> > > governing
> > > thoughts." "A couple of governing thoughts" means they are =
obsessed,
> > > like
> > > CF fanatics, only they want to use uranium fission.
> > >
> > > - Jed
>=20
>=20

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>Hi Jed and =
Ed,</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></STRONG><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><STRONG>subject</STRONG>: <EM>Nuclear=20
Energy</EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><EM></EM></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Physicist in the Superphenix =
preliminary design=20
team, (the 1220MWe French Breeder, killed by the Greens and&nbsp;our =
last=20
government, although&nbsp;this reactor&nbsp;was in a very good shape) I =
spent=20
almost 3 years at the CNAM, once retired,&nbsp;trying to duplicate, to=20
improve&nbsp;the cold fusion experiments and that, without success (see =
the web=20
site of my friend J.L. NAUDIN ). Of course, I am following the work of =
my friend=20
Jacques DUFOUR (CNAM).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear Jed and dear Ed, by the mid of =
this century,=20
one forecasts more than 8 billions people on this earth and, of course, =
they=20
will desire&nbsp;to have the same level of life than&nbsp;we western =
people do=20
have...Do you hope to solve the energy problem with windmills farms and =
others=20
green dreams? Today, the only credible answer is nuclear energy (a quasi =

renewable energy with the fast reactors), unless we are ready to put =
more and=20
more CO2 in the atmosphere...and <EM>bonjour </EM>&nbsp;the catastrophic =
climate=20
changes..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I would like to add this about the =
nuclear ashes=20
which are the main point in the nuclear refusal of many of us. Do you =
know that=20
1.4 billions ot tons of uranium are dissolved in the oceans? ( 3.3mg per =
cubic=20
meter of sea water, and I do not speak on Potassium 40, 4 times more =
abundant=20
than uranium). You can dissolve all the nuclear ashes we have made since =
Marie=20
Curie and Henri Becquerel in the sea without modifying the natural =
radioactive=20
level in a meaningful way! Of course, we can do it better in Yucca =
Mountains for=20
example with appropriate containments...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Human activity produces a lot of goods =
but also=20
unavoidable troubles.&nbsp;Let us do&nbsp;not choose a wrong way to =
solve the=20
energy problem...waiting for the cold (or hot) fusion energy! =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>You have understood that I agree =
completely with=20
Standing Bear...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PPC</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>----- Original Message ----- =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From: "Standing Bear" &lt;</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:rockcast net-link.net"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>rockcast net-link.net</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>&gt;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To: &lt;</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>vortex-l eskimo.com</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>&gt;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 6:17 =
AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Subject: Re: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. =
. . . a=20
feisty company</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><BR><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>&gt; <BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp; I feel that what we are going to get =
instead=20
is a series of <BR>&gt; command decisions on nuclear waste.&nbsp;&nbsp; =
It will=20
have to be this way<BR>&gt; or nuclear power here will be forever =
hamstrung by=20
modern day<BR>&gt; Luddites.&nbsp; It may even come to declaring martial =
law=20
under the<BR>&gt; internal security and FEMA acts.&nbsp; It must be =
understood=20
that we<BR>&gt; need energy independence for our security.&nbsp; Those =
who=20
would<BR>&gt; undermine this must be thought of no different than the=20
Saudi<BR>&gt; Al Qaedas that committed terrorism againt our nation last =
Sept=20
11th.<BR>&gt; They should be considered that way by the new =
Homeland<BR>&gt;=20
Security Department.&nbsp; I forsee the building of many new =
camps<BR>&gt; like=20
in Cuba at Guantanamo to house these sorts.<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp; Nuclear =
waste=20
is one of the most overblown so called menaces<BR>&gt; in the history of =

man.&nbsp; Typical item of waste....a glove used to<BR>&gt; work in =
certain=20
areas of a facility.&nbsp; The half life of the miniscule<BR>&gt; =
amounts of=20
radioactive material on a glove typically will be around<BR>&gt; a =
statistical=20
average of less than a few seconds.&nbsp; If this waste were so<BR>&gt; =
'hot',=20
one could use it for fuel for secondary recovery operations.&nbsp; =
I<BR>&gt;=20
suggested this very idea to a physics professor of mine when I <BR>&gt; =
was in=20
engineering school at California State University back in<BR>&gt; the=20
1970's.&nbsp; He told me about the above, and that really the stuff=20
should<BR>&gt; be better segregated.&nbsp; That done, the real storage=20
requirements would<BR>&gt; shrink dramatically.&nbsp; The present =
controversy=20
over liability and insurance<BR>&gt; is just a canard to mask ulterior =
motives=20
to destroy our energy <BR>&gt; independence and our ability to re-attain =

it..&nbsp; It is, in short, treason.<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Energy=20
obstructionists will<BR>&gt; always seek to delay nuclear developement =
even on=20
the most<BR>&gt; specious of grounds.&nbsp; If successful here, they =
will not=20
stop nuclear<BR>&gt; developement in the world, rather they will only =
stop SAFE=20
nuclear<BR>&gt; progress.&nbsp; Our surrendur of the lead in this field =
will be=20
to the North<BR>&gt; Koreas and Iraqs of the world.&nbsp; Their =
engineers are=20
now and will in the future<BR>&gt; be ordered on pain of dismemberment =
by their=20
governments to<BR>&gt; always put military considerations first, energy=20
production second,<BR>&gt; and safety dead last.&nbsp; It will be they =
who build=20
their own economies<BR>&gt; of nuclear energy on the backs of our =
failure of=20
will to stop traitorous<BR>&gt; obstructionists here.<BR>&gt; =
&nbsp;&nbsp; There=20
is a further danger, if feel, from another area, completely<BR>&gt; =
overlooked=20
by those fixated on the spurious issue of safety.&nbsp; That is<BR>&gt; =
from the=20
new experiments due to come on line in a few years that<BR>&gt; will put =
more=20
and more intense energy in smaller and smaller spaces.<BR>&gt; One of =
the=20
principles taught to all beginning engineering students is<BR>&gt; =
'activation=20
energy'.&nbsp; That is to say potential energy releases often<BR>&gt; =
require a=20
certain amount of energy to 'get them going'.&nbsp;&nbsp; The =
larger<BR>&gt; the=20
release, often the larger the 'activation energy'.&nbsp; With the=20
hydrogen<BR>&gt; fusion device, a small fission device is =
required.&nbsp; In=20
turn, the fission<BR>&gt; device in its turn requires a chemical device =
of=20
sufficient force to bring<BR>&gt; about critical confinement.&nbsp; I =
feel that=20
there are other forces in nature<BR>&gt; that we will in time =
discover.&nbsp;=20
Maybe more than a few.&nbsp; We have no<BR>&gt; practiical devices now =
based on=20
the strong nuclear force or weak<BR>&gt; nuclear force for that =
matter.&nbsp;=20
How about intranuclear forces at the<BR>&gt; quark level that we may at =
present=20
not even know exist.&nbsp; Seems the<BR>&gt; smaller the particle from =
which=20
forces arise that we deal with, the<BR>&gt; progressively and =
exponentially=20
larger forces we discover.&nbsp; We may<BR>&gt; discover vast new =
energies at=20
intranuclear particle sizes that we<BR>&gt; may be little prepared to =
deal=20
with.&nbsp; We may even find that time may<BR>&gt; have other dimensions =
as=20
well.&nbsp; Our universe may be very strange<BR>&gt; indeed.<BR>&gt;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp; Suppose our assumptions about<BR>&gt; microscopic black =
holes=20
generated in future accelerators are wrong<BR>&gt; and they do not =
'evaporate'=20
but grow instead.&nbsp; What about exotic<BR>&gt; or strange =
matter.&nbsp; It=20
might be better to first develope space travel<BR>&gt; using our =
existing=20
nuclear technologies and construct the labs for<BR>&gt; investigating =
these=20
'hot' sciences in some safe place....like beyond<BR>&gt; the Oort =
cloud.&nbsp;=20
It is only a fool that mixes his destruction in his<BR>&gt; own garage =
or=20
home.<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I really pray that Mr Naudin's =
experiments lead=20
to practical <BR>&gt; devices.&nbsp; They would make this developement =
of space=20
for hot<BR>&gt; science research a more attainable reality.&nbsp;&nbsp; =
For if=20
after some<BR>&gt; failed experiment generates strange matter and the =
ground=20
beneath<BR>&gt; your feet suddenly sinks 3500 miles in the space of a=20
microsecond,<BR>&gt; it will be too late.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Standing =
Bear<BR>&gt;=20
<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; =
On=20
Sunday 31 March 2002 14:48, Edmund Storms wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Matthew, I =
agree=20
with you, nuclear energy is better in many respects<BR>&gt; &gt; =
compared to=20
fossil fuel.&nbsp; If the US had adopted a safe and efficient<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
reactor design like France and Canada, if we had made a competent =
effort<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; to process the fuel rods and dispose of the resulting =
radioactive<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; material, if we had done this using the philosophy that the job =
needed=20
to<BR>&gt; &gt; be done right rather than cheap, I would also argue for =
more=20
nuclear<BR>&gt; &gt; energy.&nbsp;&nbsp; However, this was not done and, =
as a=20
result, we have a very<BR>&gt; &gt; dangerous mess.&nbsp; Furthermore, =
the=20
philosophy applied by business in this<BR>&gt; &gt; country will =
guarantee that=20
any new technology will always result in a<BR>&gt; &gt; mess, which will =
only be=20
cleaned up after a sufficient fraction of the<BR>&gt; &gt; population is =
killed=20
or injured.&nbsp; This being the situation, I think that<BR>&gt; &gt; =
any=20
further development of nuclear energy in the US, no matter how =
well<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
argued or how good the design looks on paper, would be very =
unwise.<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
Instead, we should look to conservation and renewable sources of energy=20
as<BR>&gt; &gt; our salvation, not the least of which is cold fusion and =

zero-point<BR>&gt; &gt; energy.&nbsp; The very fact that the US has =
fought these=20
latter energy sources<BR>&gt; &gt; demonstrates that we as a country are =
not=20
wise enough to handle something<BR>&gt; &gt; so dangerous as fission=20
energy.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Ed<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Matthew =
Rogers=20
wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Vor,<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; After reading this =
web=20
page, its articles and links, I can only<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
conclude,<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; &gt; Hurrah, finally somebody who knows what their talking =
about.<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; This seems to be an accurate portrayal of =
the=20
technology needed to make<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; things safe, and not =
insane.<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Matthew Rogers<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
-----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; From: Jed Rothwell=20
[mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com]<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Sent: Friday, =
March=20
22, 2002 1:29 PM<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; To: </FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:vortex-L eskimo.com"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>vortex-L eskimo.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;=20
Subject: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty company<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; This is insane, but interesting:<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; </FONT><A=20
href=3D"http://www.atomicengines.com/index.html"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>http://www.atomicengines.com/index.html</FONT></A><BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; "Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. is =
a feisty=20
company with a couple of<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; governing<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;=20
thoughts." "A couple of governing thoughts" means they are =
obsessed,<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; &gt; like<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; CF fanatics, only they want to use =
uranium=20
fission.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; - Jed<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;=20
</FONT></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 26 10:36:39 2002
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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:40:28 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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        "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jean=2DFran=E7ois?= FAUVARQUE" 
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	<biberian crmc2.univ-mrs.fr>,
        lonchams free.fr, Jacques FOOS 
	<foos cnam.fr>,
        Jean_de_Lagarde <jlagarde nwc.fr>,
        Patrick CORNILLE 
	<patrick.cornille libertysurf.fr>
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"Pierre.CLAUZON" wrote:

> Hi Jed and Ed, subject: Nuclear Energy Physicist in the
> Superphenix preliminary design team, (the 1220MWe French
> Breeder, killed by the Greens and our last government,
> although this reactor was in a very good shape) I spent
> almost 3 years at the CNAM, once retired, trying to
> duplicate, to improve the cold fusion experiments and
> that, without success (see the web site of my friend J.L.
> NAUDIN ). Of course, I am following the work of my friend
> Jacques DUFOUR (CNAM). Dear Jed and dear Ed, by the mid of
> this century, one forecasts more than 8 billions people on
> this earth and, of course, they will desire to have the
> same level of life than we western people do have...Do you
> hope to solve the energy problem with windmills farms and
> others green dreams? Today, the only credible answer is
> nuclear energy (a quasi renewable energy with the fast
> reactors), unless we are ready to put more and more CO2 in
> the atmosphere...and bonjour  the catastrophic climate
> changes..
>
> Pierre, consider what this population increase means in
> terms of using nuclear energy.  For all these people to
> have the energy we enjoy, the number of reactors would
> have to increased by at least 1000 times.  Many of these
> reactors would be in countries having even less competence
> than found in Russia or the US.  Sooner or later, one or
> more would melt down or explode.  Such a possibility is
> just too dangerous to consider using this source.  Just
> because France and Canada know how to make reactors safe
> is no reason everyone will be as lucky or as competent.
>
>  .I would like to add this about the nuclear ashes which
> are the main point in the nuclear refusal of many of us.
> Do you know that 1.4 billions ot tons of uranium are
> dissolved in the oceans? ( 3.3mg per cubic meter of sea
> water, and I do not speak on Potassium 40, 4 times more
> abundant than uranium). You can dissolve all the nuclear
> ashes we have made since Marie Curie and Henri Becquerel
> in the sea without modifying the natural radioactive level
> in a meaningful way! Of course, we can do it better in
> Yucca Mountains for example with appropriate
> containments...
>
>
> Placing the spent fuel in the ocean is not practical even
> though the dilution would eventually be great.  It is
> impossible to achieve the dilution immediately, so local
> concentrations of activity will be present and these will
> have expected and unexpected consequences to the food
> chain.  Yucca Mountain is barely able to hold the waste of
> the US, much less the world.  How many "Yucca Mountains"
> do you expect are available in the world.?  Would a poor
> country be as careful with its waste as the US and
> France?  Given Russia as an example, I would hate to see
> the rest of world be made as contaminated.
>
>
>
>   Human activity produces a lot of goods but also
> unavoidable troubles. Let us do not choose a wrong way to
> solve the energy problem...waiting for the cold (or hot)
> fusion energy!
>
> We do not have to make a bad choice while waiting for CF.
> All that has to happen is for the price of oil to go up by
> a factor of three, and cold fusion will become a reality.
> Once this happens, conventional nuclear energy and use of
> oil and coal will disappear.  At that point, all of our
> worries will also disappear, provide the transition can be
> made without destroying the world's economy.
>
> Ed
>
>
>
>   You have understood that I agree completely with
> Standing Bear... PPC  ----- Original Message -----From:
> "Standing Bear" <rockcast net-link.net>To:
> <vortex-l eskimo.com>Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 6:17
> AMSubject: Re: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty
> company >
> >    I feel that what we are going to get instead is a
> series of
> > command decisions on nuclear waste.   It will have to be
> this way
> > or nuclear power here will be forever hamstrung by
> modern day
> > Luddites.  It may even come to declaring martial law
> under the
> > internal security and FEMA acts.  It must be understood
> that we
> > need energy independence for our security.  Those who
> would
> > undermine this must be thought of no different than the
> Saudi
> > Al Qaedas that committed terrorism againt our nation
> last Sept 11th.
> > They should be considered that way by the new Homeland
> > Security Department.  I forsee the building of many new
> camps
> > like in Cuba at Guantanamo to house these sorts.
> >    Nuclear waste is one of the most overblown so called
> menaces
> > in the history of man.  Typical item of waste....a glove
> used to
> > work in certain areas of a facility.  The half life of
> the miniscule
> > amounts of radioactive material on a glove typically
> will be around
> > a statistical average of less than a few seconds.  If
> this waste were so
> > 'hot', one could use it for fuel for secondary recovery
> operations.  I
> > suggested this very idea to a physics professor of mine
> when I
> > was in engineering school at California State University
> back in
> > the 1970's.  He told me about the above, and that really
> the stuff should
> > be better segregated.  That done, the real storage
> requirements would
> > shrink dramatically.  The present controversy over
> liability and insurance
> > is just a canard to mask ulterior motives to destroy our
> energy
> > independence and our ability to re-attain it..  It is,
> in short, treason.
> >      Energy obstructionists will
> > always seek to delay nuclear developement even on the
> most
> > specious of grounds.  If successful here, they will not
> stop nuclear
> > developement in the world, rather they will only stop
> SAFE nuclear
> > progress.  Our surrendur of the lead in this field will
> be to the North
> > Koreas and Iraqs of the world.  Their engineers are now
> and will in the future
> > be ordered on pain of dismemberment by their governments
> to
> > always put military considerations first, energy
> production second,
> > and safety dead last.  It will be they who build their
> own economies
> > of nuclear energy on the backs of our failure of will to
> stop traitorous
> > obstructionists here.
> >    There is a further danger, if feel, from another
> area, completely
> > overlooked by those fixated on the spurious issue of
> safety.  That is
> > from the new experiments due to come on line in a few
> years that
> > will put more and more intense energy in smaller and
> smaller spaces.
> > One of the principles taught to all beginning
> engineering students is
> > 'activation energy'.  That is to say potential energy
> releases often
> > require a certain amount of energy to 'get them
> going'.   The larger
> > the release, often the larger the 'activation energy'.
> With the hydrogen
> > fusion device, a small fission device is required.  In
> turn, the fission
> > device in its turn requires a chemical device of
> sufficient force to bring
> > about critical confinement.  I feel that there are other
> forces in nature
> > that we will in time discover.  Maybe more than a few.
> We have no
> > practiical devices now based on the strong nuclear force
> or weak
> > nuclear force for that matter.  How about intranuclear
> forces at the
> > quark level that we may at present not even know exist.
> Seems the
> > smaller the particle from which forces arise that we
> deal with, the
> > progressively and exponentially larger forces we
> discover.  We may
> > discover vast new energies at intranuclear particle
> sizes that we
> > may be little prepared to deal with.  We may even find
> that time may
> > have other dimensions as well.  Our universe may be very
> strange
> > indeed.
> >    Suppose our assumptions about
> > microscopic black holes generated in future accelerators
> are wrong
> > and they do not 'evaporate' but grow instead.  What
> about exotic
> > or strange matter.  It might be better to first develope
> space travel
> > using our existing nuclear technologies and construct
> the labs for
> > investigating these 'hot' sciences in some safe
> place....like beyond
> > the Oort cloud.  It is only a fool that mixes his
> destruction in his
> > own garage or home.
> >     I really pray that Mr Naudin's experiments lead to
> practical
> > devices.  They would make this developement of space for
> hot
> > science research a more attainable reality.   For if
> after some
> > failed experiment generates strange matter and the
> ground beneath
> > your feet suddenly sinks 3500 miles in the space of a
> microsecond,
> > it will be too late.
> >
> > Standing Bear
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sunday 31 March 2002 14:48, Edmund Storms wrote:
> > > Matthew, I agree with you, nuclear energy is better in
> many respects
> > > compared to fossil fuel.  If the US had adopted a safe
> and efficient
> > > reactor design like France and Canada, if we had made
> a competent effort
> > > to process the fuel rods and dispose of the resulting
> radioactive
> > > material, if we had done this using the philosophy
> that the job needed to
> > > be done right rather than cheap, I would also argue
> for more nuclear
> > > energy.   However, this was not done and, as a result,
> we have a very
> > > dangerous mess.  Furthermore, the philosophy applied
> by business in this
> > > country will guarantee that any new technology will
> always result in a
> > > mess, which will only be cleaned up after a sufficient
> fraction of the
> > > population is killed or injured.  This being the
> situation, I think that
> > > any further development of nuclear energy in the US,
> no matter how well
> > > argued or how good the design looks on paper, would be
> very unwise.
> > > Instead, we should look to conservation and renewable
> sources of energy as
> > > our salvation, not the least of which is cold fusion
> and zero-point
> > > energy.  The very fact that the US has fought these
> latter energy sources
> > > demonstrates that we as a country are not wise enough
> to handle something
> > > so dangerous as fission energy.
> > >
> > > Ed
> > >
> > > Matthew Rogers wrote:
> > > > Vor,
> > > >         After reading this web page, its articles
> and links, I can only
> > > > conclude,
> > > > Hurrah, finally somebody who knows what their
> talking about.
> > > >
> > > > This seems to be an accurate portrayal of the
> technology needed to make
> > > > things safe, and not insane.
> > > >
> > > > Matthew Rogers
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Jed Rothwell
> [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com]
> > > > Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 1:29 PM
> > > > To: vortex-L eskimo.com
> > > > Subject: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty
> company
> > > >
> > > > This is insane, but interesting:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.atomicengines.com/index.html
> > > >
> > > > "Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. is a feisty company with
> a couple of
> > > > governing
> > > > thoughts." "A couple of governing thoughts" means
> they are obsessed,
> > > > like
> > > > CF fanatics, only they want to use uranium fission.
> > > >
> > > > - Jed
> >
> >

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<p>"Pierre.CLAUZON" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
 <b><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Hi
Jed and Ed,</font></font></b> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1><b>subject</b>:
<i>Nuclear
Energy</i></font></font> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Physicist in
the Superphenix preliminary design team, (the 1220MWe French Breeder, killed
by the Greens and our last government, although this reactor was in a very
good shape) I spent almost 3 years at the CNAM, once retired, trying to
duplicate, to improve the cold fusion experiments and that, without success
(see the web site of my friend J.L. NAUDIN ). Of course, I am following
the work of my friend Jacques DUFOUR (CNAM).</font></font> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Dear
Jed and dear Ed, by the mid of this century, one forecasts more than 8
billions people on this earth and, of course, they will desire to have
the same level of life than we western people do have...Do you hope to
solve the energy problem with windmills farms and others green dreams?
Today, the only credible answer is nuclear energy (a quasi renewable energy
with the fast reactors), unless we are ready to put more and more CO2 in
the atmosphere...and <i>bonjour&nbsp;</i> the catastrophic climate changes..</font></font>
<p><b><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Pierre, consider what this population
increase means in terms of using nuclear energy.&nbsp; For all these people
to have the energy we enjoy, the number of reactors would have to increased
by at least 1000 times.&nbsp; Many of these reactors would be in countries
having even less competence than found in Russia or the US.&nbsp; Sooner
or later, one or more would melt down or explode.&nbsp; Such a possibility
is just too dangerous to consider using this source.&nbsp; Just because
France and Canada know how to make reactors safe is no reason everyone
will be as lucky or as competent.</font></font></b>
<p>&nbsp;<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>.I would like to add this about
the nuclear ashes which are the main point in the nuclear refusal of many
of us. Do you know that 1.4 billions ot tons of uranium are dissolved in
the oceans? ( 3.3mg per cubic meter of sea water, and I do not speak on
Potassium 40, 4 times more abundant than uranium). You can dissolve all
the nuclear ashes we have made since Marie Curie and Henri Becquerel in
the sea without modifying the natural radioactive level in a meaningful
way! Of course, we can do it better in Yucca Mountains for example with
appropriate containments...</font></font>
<br>&nbsp;
<p><b><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Placing the spent fuel in the ocean
is not practical even though the dilution would eventually be great.&nbsp;
It is impossible to achieve the dilution immediately, so local concentrations
of activity will be present and these will have expected and unexpected
consequences to the food chain.&nbsp; Yucca Mountain is barely able to
hold the waste of the US, much less the world.&nbsp; How many "Yucca Mountains"
do you expect are available in the world.?&nbsp; Would a poor country be
as careful with its waste as the US and France?&nbsp; Given Russia as an
example, I would hate to see the rest of world be made as contaminated.</font></font></b>
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;
<p>&nbsp; <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Human activity produces a lot
of goods but also unavoidable troubles. Let us do not choose a wrong way
to solve the energy problem...waiting for the cold (or hot) fusion energy!</font></font>
<p><b><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>We do not have to make a bad choice
while waiting for CF.&nbsp; All that has to happen is for the price of
oil to go up by a factor of three, and cold fusion will become a reality.&nbsp;
Once this happens, conventional nuclear energy and use of oil and coal
will disappear.&nbsp; At that point, all of our worries will also disappear,
provide the transition can be made without destroying the world's economy.</font></font></b>
<p><b><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>Ed</font></font></b>
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;
<p>&nbsp; <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>You have understood that I agree
completely with Standing Bear...</font></font> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>PPC</font></font>&nbsp;
<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>----- Original Message -----From: "Standing
Bear" &lt;<a href="mailto:rockcast net-link.net">rockcast@net-link.net</a>>To:
&lt;<a href="mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</a>>Sent:
Monday, August 26, 2002 6:17 AMSubject: Re: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc.
. . . a feisty company</font></font> <font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I feel that what
we are going to get instead is a series of</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> command decisions on nuclear waste.&nbsp;&nbsp;
It will have to be this way</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> or nuclear power here will be forever
hamstrung by modern day</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Luddites.&nbsp; It may even come
to declaring martial law under the</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> internal security and FEMA acts.&nbsp;
It must be understood that we</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> need energy independence for our
security.&nbsp; Those who would</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> undermine this must be thought of
no different than the Saudi</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Al Qaedas that committed terrorism
againt our nation last Sept 11th.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> They should be considered that way
by the new Homeland</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Security Department.&nbsp; I forsee
the building of many new camps</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> like in Cuba at Guantanamo to house
these sorts.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Nuclear waste
is one of the most overblown so called menaces</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> in the history of man.&nbsp; Typical
item of waste....a glove used to</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> work in certain areas of a facility.&nbsp;
The half life of the miniscule</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> amounts of radioactive material
on a glove typically will be around</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> a statistical average of less than
a few seconds.&nbsp; If this waste were so</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> 'hot', one could use it for fuel
for secondary recovery operations.&nbsp; I</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> suggested this very idea to a physics
professor of mine when I</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> was in engineering school at California
State University back in</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> the 1970's.&nbsp; He told me about
the above, and that really the stuff should</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> be better segregated.&nbsp; That
done, the real storage requirements would</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> shrink dramatically.&nbsp; The present
controversy over liability and insurance</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> is just a canard to mask ulterior
motives to destroy our energy</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> independence and our ability to
re-attain it..&nbsp; It is, in short, treason.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Energy
obstructionists will</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> always seek to delay nuclear developement
even on the most</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> specious of grounds.&nbsp; If successful
here, they will not stop nuclear</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> developement in the world, rather
they will only stop SAFE nuclear</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> progress.&nbsp; Our surrendur of
the lead in this field will be to the North</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Koreas and Iraqs of the world.&nbsp;
Their engineers are now and will in the future</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> be ordered on pain of dismemberment
by their governments to</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> always put military considerations
first, energy production second,</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> and safety dead last.&nbsp; It will
be they who build their own economies</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> of nuclear energy on the backs of
our failure of will to stop traitorous</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> obstructionists here.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There is a further
danger, if feel, from another area, completely</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> overlooked by those fixated on the
spurious issue of safety.&nbsp; That is</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> from the new experiments due to
come on line in a few years that</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> will put more and more intense energy
in smaller and smaller spaces.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> One of the principles taught to
all beginning engineering students is</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> 'activation energy'.&nbsp; That
is to say potential energy releases often</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> require a certain amount of energy
to 'get them going'.&nbsp;&nbsp; The larger</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> the release, often the larger the
'activation energy'.&nbsp; With the hydrogen</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> fusion device, a small fission device
is required.&nbsp; In turn, the fission</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> device in its turn requires a chemical
device of sufficient force to bring</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> about critical confinement.&nbsp;
I feel that there are other forces in nature</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> that we will in time discover.&nbsp;
Maybe more than a few.&nbsp; We have no</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> practiical devices now based on
the strong nuclear force or weak</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> nuclear force for that matter.&nbsp;
How about intranuclear forces at the</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> quark level that we may at present
not even know exist.&nbsp; Seems the</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> smaller the particle from which
forces arise that we deal with, the</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> progressively and exponentially
larger forces we discover.&nbsp; We may</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> discover vast new energies at intranuclear
particle sizes that we</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> may be little prepared to deal with.&nbsp;
We may even find that time may</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> have other dimensions as well.&nbsp;
Our universe may be very strange</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> indeed.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Suppose our assumptions
about</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> microscopic black holes generated
in future accelerators are wrong</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> and they do not 'evaporate' but
grow instead.&nbsp; What about exotic</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> or strange matter.&nbsp; It might
be better to first develope space travel</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> using our existing nuclear technologies
and construct the labs for</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> investigating these 'hot' sciences
in some safe place....like beyond</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> the Oort cloud.&nbsp; It is only
a fool that mixes his destruction in his</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> own garage or home.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I really
pray that Mr Naudin's experiments lead to practical</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> devices.&nbsp; They would make this
developement of space for hot</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> science research a more attainable
reality.&nbsp;&nbsp; For if after some</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> failed experiment generates strange
matter and the ground beneath</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> your feet suddenly sinks 3500 miles
in the space of a microsecond,</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> it will be too late.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> Standing Bear</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> On Sunday 31 March 2002 14:48, Edmund
Storms wrote:</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > Matthew, I agree with you, nuclear
energy is better in many respects</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > compared to fossil fuel.&nbsp;
If the US had adopted a safe and efficient</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > reactor design like France and
Canada, if we had made a competent effort</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > to process the fuel rods and dispose
of the resulting radioactive</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > material, if we had done this
using the philosophy that the job needed to</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > be done right rather than cheap,
I would also argue for more nuclear</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > energy.&nbsp;&nbsp; However, this
was not done and, as a result, we have a very</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > dangerous mess.&nbsp; Furthermore,
the philosophy applied by business in this</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > country will guarantee that any
new technology will always result in a</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > mess, which will only be cleaned
up after a sufficient fraction of the</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > population is killed or injured.&nbsp;
This being the situation, I think that</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > any further development of nuclear
energy in the US, no matter how well</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > argued or how good the design
looks on paper, would be very unwise.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > Instead, we should look to conservation
and renewable sources of energy as</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > our salvation, not the least of
which is cold fusion and zero-point</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > energy.&nbsp; The very fact that
the US has fought these latter energy sources</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > demonstrates that we as a country
are not wise enough to handle something</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > so dangerous as fission energy.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> ></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > Ed</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> ></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > Matthew Rogers wrote:</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > > Vor,</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > >&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
After reading this web page, its articles and links, I can only</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > > conclude,</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > > Hurrah, finally somebody who
knows what their talking about.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > ></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > > This seems to be an accurate
portrayal of the technology needed to make</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > > things safe, and not insane.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > ></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > > Matthew Rogers</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > ></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > > -----Original Message-----</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > > From: Jed Rothwell [<A HREF="mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com">mailto:jedrothwell@infinite-energy.com</A>]</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > > Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002
1:29 PM</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > > To: <a href="mailto:vortex-L eskimo.com">vortex-L@eskimo.com</a></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > > Subject: Adams Atomic Engines,
Inc. . . . a feisty company</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > ></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > > This is insane, but interesting:</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > ></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > > <a href="http://www.atomicengines.com/index.html">http://www.atomicengines.com/index.html</a></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > ></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > > "Adams Atomic Engines, Inc.
is a feisty company with a couple of</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > > governing</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > > thoughts." "A couple of governing
thoughts" means they are obsessed,</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > > like</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > > CF fanatics, only they want
to use uranium fission.</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > ></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>> > > - Jed</font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font>
<br><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>></font></font></blockquote>

</body>
</html>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 26 10:43:55 2002
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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:42:18 -0400
To: "Pierre.CLAUZON" <pierre.clauzon wanadoo.fr>, <vortex-L@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty company
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Pierre.CLAUZON wrote:

>I spent almost 3 years at the CNAM, once retired, trying to duplicate, to 
>improve the cold fusion experiments and that, without success (see the web 
>site of my friend J.L. NAUDIN ). Of course, I am following the work of my 
>friend Jacques DUFOUR (CNAM).

How did your replication go? Any positive results? What is the latest news 
from Dufour?


>Dear Jed and dear Ed, by the mid of this century, one forecasts more than 
>8 billions people on this earth and, of course, they will desire to have 
>the same level of life than we western people do have...Do you hope to 
>solve the energy problem with windmills farms and others green dreams?

Easily. There is enough potential wind power in the U.S., Europe and China 
to produce all of the electricity on earth plus as much chemical fuel as 
the oil now extracted from the Middle East now supplies. The cost would 
high, but nowhere near as high as the cost of building nuclear fission 
power plants. The costs are roughly:

Conventional gas turbine or coal: $500 per kW capacity. Cost is rising.

Wind: $1,000/kW. Cost is falling rapidly.

Conventional nuclear: $3,000 - $6,000/kW. Cost is rising, rapidly.

Breeder reactor: $24,000/kW? No one knows. The Japanese breeder reactor 
program managers estimate the power itself would be 4 to 8 times more 
expensive than conventional electricity.

The land use and pollution from uranium extraction is dreadful, almost as 
bad as coal. (Only ethanol production is more destructive than coal, but 
this is not an energy production system, since ethanol consumes far more 
energy than it produces.)

Fuel costs for fission are a little lower than gas or coal, but only when 
you ignore the pollution and environmental destruction caused by mining, 
and the cost of storing or recyling the used uranium. Fuel costs for wind 
power are zero.

No corporation or government would build nuclear plants. It is economic 
insanity. The potential cost of insurance is so high, the government has 
waived the rules and allowed the industry to operate without liability 
insurance (under the Price Anderson). In the event of an accident, 
governments in the U.S. and the E.U. will pay. In the third world, no one 
will pay, and tens of thousands of people will suffer as they have in 
Chernobyl. All of the insurance companies in the world together say they 
could not afford the business. If Congress were to repeal Price Anderson, 
the industry would shrivel up and die even faster than it is dying already.


>I would like to add this about the nuclear ashes which are the main point 
>in the nuclear refusal of many of us.

Also the waste at mines and production plants, and the potential for 
terrorist attacks with dirty bombs, the danger of operating the plants with 
unskilled people or crazy people, and -- as I said -- the cost, which is 
astronomical.


>  Do you know that 1.4 billions ot tons of uranium are dissolved in the 
> oceans? ( 3.3mg per cubic meter of sea water, and I do not speak on 
> Potassium 40, 4 times more abundant than uranium). You can dissolve all 
> the nuclear ashes we have made since Marie Curie and Henri Becquerel in 
> the sea without modifying the natural radioactive level in a meaningful way!

This fact seems irrelevant to me. Do you propose getting rid of nuclear 
waste in this fashion? How would you dump the dissolved material in the 
ocean without concentrating it in one spot? Nuclear wastes are now 
concentrated in a few thousand places on earth. It would be insane 
to  spread the waste out thinner to more places or dump it in water. Most 
of the present repositories are highly vulnerable to terrorist attack. 
Some, in Russia, are abandoned without any protection. Anyone can walk up 
and take the material. Building thousands of reactors for use in the third 
world, China or Russia would certainly result in countless severe accidents 
and deliberate terrorist acts. Nothing could prevent that.

Note that these Adams Atomic Engines people do not address a single one of 
these issues.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 26 12:17:09 2002
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty company
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 <000801c1d8e1$c9fc2230$7009fea9 bear>
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Standing Bear wrote:

>I feel that what we are going to get instead is a series of
>command decisions on nuclear waste.   It will have to be this way
>or nuclear power here will be forever hamstrung by modern day
>Luddites.

Modern day Luddites have no political power and they have done nothing to 
hamstring fission power. The fission power industry destroyed itself by 
making slipshod, dangerous, overpriced products that cannot compete, and 
could not be insured even by a consortium of every insurance company on 
earth. (That's according to the insurance industry testimony before 
Congress.) No sane corporation or government would build conventional 
fission power plants, or anything resembling them. Much better, cheaper, 
more reliable alternatives are available.


>It must be understood that we need energy independence for our security.

It must be understood that we could have independence for the asking, at a 
very moderate cost -- much less than the cost of fission reactors! The U.S. 
has enough renewable energy resources to supply the whole planet with fuel, 
until the sun goes out. We could easily have put OPEC out of business 20 
years ago. Unfortunately the fossil fuel industry has great  political 
influence and it has derailed progress in this area.


>Those who would undermine this must be thought of no different than the 
>Saudi Al Qaedas that committed terrorism againt our nation last Sept 11th.

And those who would bankrupt the nation by building obsolete fission 
reactors are no different than the Enron shysters who robbed California of 
billions of dollars during the fake "energy crisis" last year. The people 
in California made a few minor adjustments to their lifestyle and the 
"shortages" disappeared. In the U.S. as a whole, we could cut consumption 
by half and never notice it. Our economic competitors consume far less per 
dollar of GDP than we do. This would be cheaper than building any form of 
generator (even wind generators) and it would leave so much oil left over 
we could export the stuff again.

There is no energy crisis, anywhere. There is no security issue. There is 
absolutely no shortage of fossil fuel, wind or solar energy. The idea is 
ridiculous. The problem is that fossil fuel pollutes too much and costs too 
much, and we lack a cheap, reliable way to extract solar energy. Wind, at 
present, is cheaper than fossil fuel in many places and FAR cheaper than 
fission, anywhere. Cold fusion, of course, would ultimately be orders of 
magnitude cheaper than wind, and we could generate enough of it to vaporize 
planet earth.


>Nuclear waste is one of the most overblown so called menaces in the 
>history of man.

And nuclear power plants are the most expensive waste of capital in 
history. People who believe in free market capitalism despise them, 
including people at opposite ends of the spectrum, such as the Cato 
Institute & me -- odd bedfellows indeed! The Institute & I seldom agree on 
economic policy. When we do, that tells you the position is nonpartisan and 
it has broad appeal.

Nuclear waste is the least important reason we (the Inst. & I) oppose 
nuclear power. Other safety issues, obsolete technology, inability to 
compete, and skyrocketing costs and liability are the main reasons. People 
who support the industry should address these issues. Mr. Bear should 
address these issues, instead of fulminating about how Cato Institute 
members should be locked up in Guantanamo, along with anti-war firebrands 
Colin Powell & Brent Scowcroft, I suppose. (More strange bedfellows!)

Note: The pending war in Iraq is off-topic here, and no doubt it should be 
kept off topic, but I couldn't resist. After all, it is war over oil. It is 
about energy policy. Oil profits, to be exact. Any time in the last 
ten  years, we could have put Iraq out of business, overthrown Hussein, and 
saved Americans consumers billions of dollars by implementing Japanese 
technology. Instead we choose to freeze our automotive technology at circa 
1980 levels. This is what happens when you decide progress is not worth the 
trouble. The true Luddites are the people in charge of the automobile 
industry, the fossil fuel industry, and the Administration.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Aug 26 15:56:06 2002
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Hi All.

Ah, the spirit of Mitchell Jones lives on...

This bit's my favorite:

>It may even come to declaring martial law under the
>internal security and FEMA acts.  It must be understood that we
>need energy independence for our security.  Those who would
>undermine this must be thought of no different than the Saudi
>Al Qaedas that committed terrorism againt our nation last Sept 11th.
>They should be considered that way by the new Homeland
>Security Department.  I forsee the building of many new camps
>like in Cuba at Guantanamo to house these sorts.

I suspect if Mr. Ashcroft and Mr. Cheney had their way,
you'd have your wish. At least we'd see SOMETHING being done
with the billions disappearing into their rabbit hole.

Apropos of nothing, it struck me the other day that John 
Ashcroft reminds me of none other than Principal Skinner
from "The Simpsons" cartoon. Separated at birth?

http://thesimpsons.com/bios/bios_school_skinner.html

Couldn't you see Skinner singing this?

http://www.cnn.com/video/us/2002/02/25/ashcroft.sings.wbtv.med.html

You know, they even sound alike. And dig that phat vibrato!

K.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 27 08:04:47 2002
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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:06:33 -0700
Subject: Nuclear powered micromachine
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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Science News (8/24/02 - p.162) reports a nuclear powered micromachine
developed at Cornell University.

The device uses beta-emitter Ni-63 to charge up a cantilever strip of
silicon nitride 2 microns thick. When the negative charge is high enough,
the strip bends toward the positive Ni and then discharges. This is an
oscillatory process that the developers plan to adapt to a rotary motor
micromachine. The group built a larger cantilever vibratory device that was
reported in the July 15 Journal of Applied Physics.

 - Gene Mallove
  www.infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 27 14:06:48 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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In reply to  Eugene F. Mallove's message of Tue, 27 Aug 2002 11:06:33 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]

>Science News (8/24/02 - p.162) reports a nuclear powered micromachine
>developed at Cornell University.
>
>The device uses beta-emitter Ni-63 to charge up a cantilever strip of
>silicon nitride 2 microns thick. When the negative charge is high enough,
>the strip bends toward the positive Ni and then discharges. This is an
>oscillatory process that the developers plan to adapt to a rotary motor
>micromachine. The group built a larger cantilever vibratory device that was
>reported in the July 15 Journal of Applied Physics.
[snip]
What an incredible waste of power. The average energy of these beta-particles is 17 keV. I'd be very surprised if they actually let the voltage rise that high before discharge takes place.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 27 14:22:31 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fw: Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. . . . a feisty company
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 07:21:01 +1000
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In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:40:28 -0600:
Hi,
[snip]
> We do not have to make a bad choice while waiting for CF.
> All that has to happen is for the price of oil to go up by
> a factor of three, and cold fusion will become a reality.
> Once this happens, conventional nuclear energy and use of
> oil and coal will disappear.  At that point, all of our
> worries will also disappear, provide the transition can be
> made without destroying the world's economy.

The transition won't happen unless it results in cheaper power.
Making something cheaper has never destroyed the economy. On the contrary, it has always resulted in growth.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Aug 27 15:05:55 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Thoughts on Carnot
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 08:03:21 +1000
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Hi,

Carnot efficiency is based on the assumption that the heat, remaining in
a gas after work has been done, is lost.

What happens if you have a perfectly insulated engine, where the gas is recompressed, and reheated, only losing energy by doing mechanical work?
(Doing work results in the gas cooling down).

IOW the kinetic energy of the gas molecules on the cold side is retained
by the molecules, and reduces the amount of energy that needs to be added on
the hot side to regain the initial hot side temperature?
IOW a perfectly insulated Stirling engine with no cold side.

As I see it this would mean that in (Th-Tl)/Th, one would no longer need to subtract Tl, as this energy is retained, resulting in a theoretical maximum efficiency of Th/Th i.e. 100%.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:40:28 -0600:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> > We do not have to make a bad choice while waiting for CF.
> > All that has to happen is for the price of oil to go up by
> > a factor of three, and cold fusion will become a reality.
> > Once this happens, conventional nuclear energy and use of
> > oil and coal will disappear.  At that point, all of our
> > worries will also disappear, provide the transition can be
> > made without destroying the world's economy.
>
> The transition won't happen unless it results in cheaper power.
> Making something cheaper has never destroyed the economy. On the contrary, it has always resulted in growth.

CF will make cheaper power, eventually.  However, like all new technologies, the initial cost will be high,
although cheaper than oil at the time.  The threat to the economy occurs when all of the infrastructure
associated with oil becomes worthless.  In the short term, this would cause massive failures in many major
businesses and cause political chaos in the middle east.  This is not like any other new technology. Humans
never do anything in a reasonable way, so the transition will be driven by greed and local politics.  I can
imagine as can you, many  of the ways the economy could fail before a new path is created.

Ed

>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> Competition provides the motivation,
> Cooperation provides the means.

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 27 Aug 2002 15:24:38 -0600:
Hi,
[snip]
>CF will make cheaper power, eventually.  However, like all new technologies, the initial cost will be high,
>although cheaper than oil at the time.  

Then it won't replace other technologies, until it is.

>The threat to the economy occurs when all of the infrastructure
>associated with oil becomes worthless.  In the short term, this would cause massive failures in many major
>businesses and cause political chaos in the middle east.  

If middle eastern countries don't have the foresight to invest their oil wealth in other industries, then that's exactly what they deserve.
Besides, such a large change will not happen over night. It takes time to manufacture and implement CF technology. Yes some companies will go bust in the process, but others will be born to replace them.

>This is not like any other new technology. 

It is like any other technology. The introduction of the automobile was just as major a change.

>Humans
>never do anything in a reasonable way, so the transition will be driven by greed and local politics.  I can
>imagine as can you, many  of the ways the economy could fail before a new path is created.

I don't foresee an instantaneous transition. Not everyone can afford a new car overnight, so some gas powered vehicles will remain on the roads for some time. Besides part of the oil industry will remain, to produce petrochemicals.
The ships will be converted to other uses, or the oldest ones will be scrapped. Gas stations will be scrapped, or converted to other businesses (Burger King? ;).
The employees will find work in the CF industry, or in the then burgeoning recycling industry (which will take off in a big way with the advent of truly cheap energy, because recycled materials will be cheaper than raw materials).
[snip]

(BTW I have no financial interest in Burger King).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 27 Aug 2002 15:24:38 -0600:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >CF will make cheaper power, eventually.  However, like all new technologies, the initial cost will be high,
> >although cheaper than oil at the time.
>
> Then it won't replace other technologies, until it is.
>
> >The threat to the economy occurs when all of the infrastructure
> >associated with oil becomes worthless.  In the short term, this would cause massive failures in many major
> >businesses and cause political chaos in the middle east.
>
> If middle eastern countries don't have the foresight to invest their oil wealth in other industries, then that's exactly what they deserve.

Perhaps they will get want they deserve, but the world is now so interconnected that when one group is being punished for stupidities, many other innocent people also suffer.

>
> Besides, such a large change will not happen over night. It takes time to manufacture and implement CF technology. Yes some companies will go bust in the process, but others will be born to replace them.

True, but everything depends on how fast this occurs.  In any case, when the prospect of CF becomes real, the value of property associated with oil will quickly drop in value.  So a person who paid $100,000 for a gas station, for
example, will quickly discovered he can get only $50,000 for the property.  So his loan is called and he goes into bankruptcy.  This will happen in thousands of different ways.

>
>
> >This is not like any other new technology.
>
> It is like any other technology. The introduction of the automobile was just as major a change.

Yes, it was a major change, but on a much smaller scale.  The issue is the scale of the change.

>
>
> >Humans
> >never do anything in a reasonable way, so the transition will be driven by greed and local politics.  I can
> >imagine as can you, many  of the ways the economy could fail before a new path is created.
>
> I don't foresee an instantaneous transition. Not everyone can afford a new car overnight, so some gas powered vehicles will remain on the roads for some time.

I agree, but the value of these cars, many of which are collateral for a loan, will drop and the bank will want their money.

> Besides part of the oil industry will remain, to produce petrochemicals.

Yes, about 1%.  This is hardly a way to support an industry.

>
> The ships will be converted to other uses, or the oldest ones will be scrapped.

Yes, but the owners of these ships, many of which are banks, will take a major loss.

> Gas stations will be scrapped, or converted to other businesses (Burger King? ;).

Who will buy the burgers when everyone is out of work?

>
> The employees will find work in the CF industry, or in the then burgeoning recycling industry (which will take off in a big way with the advent of truly cheap energy,

Eventually this will happen, but it will take a generation.  People can not change their jobs or be retrained very fast.  The transition will be very painful.

> because recycled materials will be cheaper than raw materials).
> [snip]

If this happens, then the disruption will be even greater as the primary mining industries go broke.

While CF offers many advantages in the long run, no one should ignore the short term consequences.  Otherwise, the transition will be even worse.

Ed

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Subject: Transition to a CF economy
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>It takes time to manufacture and implement CF technology.

I estimate 10 or 20 years, based on previous examples and the life cycle of 
HVAC equipment, trucks and so on. In the last phase the transition will 
speed up and old equipment will be replaced sooner than normal because 
people will not have spare parts or the knowledge to maintain obsolete 
equipment. See the replacement curve for typewriters or minicomputers.


> >This is not like any other new technology.
>
>It is like any other technology. The introduction of the automobile was 
>just as major a change.

It was one of the biggest transitions in U.S. history, but I think CF would 
dwarf it. The changeover to automobiles gave rise to dislocations that have 
now been forgotten. In 1933, for example, Congress had to bail out the 
railroad pension funds because the number of active railroad workers had 
fallen, because passenger traffic was reduced by automobiles (and by the 
depression). In 1939 an economics professor at Cornell told my mother he 
thought the depression was caused by automobiles replacing horses. Horses 
required much more labor. The U.S. horse population peaked in 1929.


>I don't foresee an instantaneous transition. Not everyone can afford a new 
>car overnight, so some gas powered vehicles will remain on the roads for 
>some time.

When one-third of the vehicles no longer consume gasoline, gas stations 
will go out of business in droves, making it difficult to maintain the 
remaining gasoline vehicles. Gas station profit margins are small. A slight 
reduction in consumption in the 1970s forced many out of business. When 
two-thirds are CF powered, the remaining gasoline vehicles will quickly be 
forced off the road. The same dynamics will force a quick changes to other 
fossil fuel based technologies, such as beef production.


>Gas stations will be scrapped, or converted to other businesses (Burger 
>King? ;).
>The employees will find work in the CF industry . . .

There will be no CF industry. All of the labor now performed by 400,000 
skilled workers in the U.S. will be replaced by the labor of a dozen low 
level technicians operating the heavy water extraction machinery.


>, or in the then burgeoning recycling industry (which will take off in a 
>big way with the advent of truly cheap energy, because recycled materials 
>will be cheaper than raw materials).

That is a possibility. Consumers, the Congress and industry will have to 
plan & implement social policy to achieve smooth transitions to such new 
industries. Otherwise it will take decades longer.

- Jed


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There will be a demonstration of a DeLorean powered by an electric motor and
twelve 12 volt standard car batteries. The battery bank is kept in a charged
condition by the "on board" charger which is the device invented by 
Carl B. Tilley.
The DeLorean will be driving around the race track  all day on 
Saturday September 7, 2002, at the  Nashville Superspeedway.  Racing 
legend Bobby Allison is one of the guest drivers for this 
demonstration. The  demonstration is free and open to the public.

For further information go to http://www.tilleyfoundation.com/

For information on how to arrange interviews with the inventor Carl 
Tilley you can contact either Mr. Tilley at 615 443 5315 or 
cktilley bellsouth.net  or Douglas Littlefield at 802 238 3149 or 
dougl pshift.com

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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 13:50:00 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Microwave powered lawnmower revisited
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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This is a "slightly" delayed reply to Mallove's seven-year old message:

From: Eugene Mallove=20
Reply to: vortex-l mail.eskimo.com
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Lawnmower Man

Someone sent me a hard copy of this and I transcribed it. May make for =
some
fun experiments connected with cavitation, steam, and O-U.

Gene Mallove
*********************************
The originating message From: Pat_Pelletier mindlink.bc.ca (Pat =
Pelletier)
Newsgroups: sci.engr
Subject: PUBLIC DISCLOSURE - NEW INVENTION
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 10:54:05 - 0700
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada

[actual message included at end]

Does this story ring a bell?

Like many vortexians, I will admit to being more than a little skeptical =
when this idea was circulating in 1995. After all, how could a microwave =
generator (~50% eff) convert a very inefficient Carnot engine (-10% with =
gasoline) suddenly into every vortexian's dream of a water-based free =
energy converter?

Similar reports have reappeared several times since, but I have not seen =
an actual replication attempt that was convincing.

Now comes Randell Mills' recent presentation at the prestigious 224rd =
ACS National Meeting, August 18=9622, 2002, Boston, Massachusetts
http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/technical/ACS%20082702.pdf

PLEASE ! every committed free-energy enthusiast must download and read =
this pdf file. It is long but well worth the effort, especially towards =
the end.=20

It explains his theory has been expanded to cover water vapor, and with =
actual test results ! In short, it explains how this "lawnmower thing" =
might really have worked - and who is to say it didn't ! Is this a case =
of normally gullible vortex experimenters being too skeptical - that's a =
first.

Especially pay attention when you get to p.42 (of 75). On page 50 you =
will find BLP's lame-by comparison method of implementing the =
phenomenon.=20

If the theory is accurate (big IF) , and if somebody actually made it =
work seven years ago (bigger IF), then maybe the world will be a very =
different place very soon, because unlike other implementations of new =
theories, i.e. cold fusion,  the components to this one (two stroke =
engine and magnetron) have already been perfected over the decades with =
millions of man-hours of engineering - and can be found in almost every =
house in the USA.

Attaching a magnetron to a lawnmower engine makes a helluva a lot more =
sense to the garage tinkerer than something like a plasma-based reverse =
gyrotron. (yes, I know it would still take a huge effort to perfect it)

Regards,

Jones Beene



The Microwave-Based Water Engine

From: Pat_Pelletier mindlink.bc.ca (Pat Pelletier)Newsgroups: sci.engr

I am posting the following for a friend who does NOT have access to =
Internet. Comments welcomed.

NOTICE
  The purpose of this notice is to place into public domain something =
which I invented so that it may be patented and in order to prevent it's =
use from being restricted in any way.  The device is an engine in which =
small quantities of water are turned into steam by the use of a =
magnetron (as found in microwave ovens).  Interested parties may wish to =
try this test: Place a few drops of water into a clear plastic 35mm film =
roll holder and put the cap on the film roll holder.  Place in a =
microwave oven and turn the oven on. The 'pop' is the result of the =
water turning suddenly into steam.  The engine I have invented is far =
more efficient than any other steam engine  because the efficiency of =
the magnetron in turning water into steam.  In fact, the water droplet =
'explodes' very much like air/gasoline explodes in a conventional =
internal combustion engine.  This engine was first tested in 1992.  I am =
however unable to invest the  required capital to produce a more =
sophisticated model and therefore unable to patent it.  Even though I =
may not be able to profit from this technology, it is too good to be =
kept to myself and I would like to spread it around so that others may =
be able to use it.  The following is an outline of how to construct the =
device and a few cautions:

PARTS NEEDED:
1. Magnetron from medium power microwave oven.
2. Small 4-stroke single cylinder lawn mover engine or similar engine =
with 'old style' points and ignition system.
3.  Automotive alternator with built-in rectifier and regulator, also a =
12 volt auto battery.
4. "Trigger" mechanism from an aircraft "strobe" landing light.

INSTRUCTIONS:
  1. The magnetron fits into the spark plug hole.
  2. The distributor points are modified so that the contact is closed =
when the piston is at the top dead center and this contact is used to =
activate the aircraft strobe mechanism.
  3.  The high voltage from the strobe is connected to directly fire the =
magnetron which in turn produces steam which moves the piston.
  4. The engine turns the alternator which keeps the battery charged, =
which supplies the electrical power for the magnetron.

CAUTIONS: WARNING!!! DANGER!!!! EEEK!!!!

TIPS:
  1. Be careful around the magnetron. KEEP IT SHIELDED WITH METAL.  IT =
CAN CAUSE SEVERE BURNS THAT MAY NOT BE READILY VISIBLE WHEN THEY FIRST =
OCCUR.
  2. The 'strobe' trigger delivers a very high voltage which can jump to =
ground.  WEAR RUBBER SOLED SHOES AND INSULATE WELL.
  3. Be sure to modify the distributor points so they close at the top =
dead center. Timing advance depends on the power of the magnetron used =
and the amount of water. Try different carb jet sizes -- drill out if =
needed.
  4. Due to variables, don't expect high engine speeds without a little =
experimentation due to variables.
  5. Start with a fully charged battery or your alternator won't work.
  6. The energy produced is in excess of the power required to run the =
alternator but until you get the RPM up, and the parts working in =
harmony, it may be best to use a battery charger instead of an =
alternator.
  7. An easy way to measure net power output after you have the =
alternator on line is to run a few 12 volt lights from the battery.  You =
will see that the battery stays charged even with the lights on and the =
motor keeps on going.
  8.  Although I have not tried it, the idea of vaporizing water with =
microwaves should also work well in a converted turbine.
SPREAD THIS TECHNOLOGY - IT IS FREE!!  PRINT THIS BEFORE IT IS DELETED =
FROM THE NET!  MY CODE FOR FUTURE IDENTIFICATION IS PANGURBAN

O.K., Pangurban my man. Here I am spreading your technology. Run, =
technology, run! You're free now! I do not know whether this kind of =
engine works. It seems plausible, kind of. Try it!

John Wiltbank

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<DIV>This is a "slightly" delayed reply to&nbsp;Mallove's seven-year old =

message:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>From: Eugene Mallove </DIV>
<DIV>Reply to: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:vortex-l mail.eskimo.com">vortex-l@mail.eskimo.com</A><BR>=
To:=20
Vortex &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A>&gt;<BR>Subjec=
t:=20
Lawnmower Man</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Someone sent me a hard copy of this and I transcribed it. May make =
for=20
some<BR>fun experiments connected with cavitation, steam, and O-U.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Gene Mallove<BR>*********************************</DIV>
<DIV>The originating message From: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:Pat_Pelletier mindlink.bc.ca">Pat_Pelletier@mindlink.bc.ca=
</A> (Pat=20
Pelletier)<BR>Newsgroups: sci.engr<BR>Subject: PUBLIC DISCLOSURE - NEW=20
INVENTION<BR>Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 10:54:05 - 0700<BR>Organization: MIND =
LINK! -=20
British Columbia, Canada</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>[actual message included at end]</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Does this story ring a bell?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Like many vortexians, I will admit to being more than a little =
skeptical=20
when this idea was circulating in 1995. After all, how could a microwave =

generator (~50% eff) convert a very inefficient Carnot engine (-10% with =

gasoline) suddenly into every vortexian's dream of a water-based free =
energy=20
converter?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Similar reports have reappeared several times since, but I have not =
seen an=20
actual replication attempt that was convincing.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Now comes Randell Mills' recent presentation at the prestigious =
224rd ACS=20
National Meeting, August 18=9622, 2002, Boston, Massachusetts</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/technical/ACS%20082702.pdf">ht=
tp://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/technical/ACS%20082702.pdf</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>PLEASE ! every committed free-energy enthusiast must download and =
read this=20
pdf file. It is long but well worth the effort, especially towards the =
end.=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It explains&nbsp;his theory has been expanded to cover water vapor, =
and=20
with actual test results ! In short, it explains how this "lawnmower =
thing"=20
might really have worked - and who is to say it didn't ! Is this a case =
of=20
normally gullible vortex experimenters being too skeptical - that's a=20
first.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Especially pay attention when you get to p.42 (of 75). On page 50 =
you will=20
find BLP's lame-by comparison method of implementing the phenomenon. =
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If&nbsp;the theory&nbsp;is accurate (big IF) , and if&nbsp;somebody =

actually made it work seven years ago (bigger IF), then maybe the world =
will be=20
a very different place very soon, because unlike other implementations =
of new=20
theories, i.e. cold fusion, &nbsp;the components to this one (two stroke =
engine=20
and magnetron) have already been perfected over the decades with =
millions of=20
man-hours of engineering - and can be found in almost every house in the =

USA.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Attaching a magnetron to a lawnmower engine makes a helluva a lot =
more=20
sense to the garage tinkerer than something like a plasma-based reverse=20
gyrotron. (yes, I know it would still take a huge effort to perfect =
it)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones Beene<BR></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The Microwave-Based Water Engine</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>From: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:Pat_Pelletier mindlink.bc.ca">Pat_Pelletier@mindlink.bc.ca=
</A> (Pat=20
Pelletier)Newsgroups: sci.engr<BR></DIV>
<DIV>I am posting the following for a friend who does NOT have access to =

Internet. Comments welcomed.<BR></DIV>
<DIV>NOTICE<BR>&nbsp; The purpose of this notice is to place into public =
domain=20
something which I invented so that it may be patented and in order to =
prevent=20
it's use from being restricted in any way.&nbsp; The device is an engine =
in=20
which small quantities of water are turned into steam by the use of a =
magnetron=20
(as found in microwave ovens).&nbsp; Interested parties may wish to try =
this=20
test: Place a few drops of water into a clear plastic 35mm film roll =
holder and=20
put the cap on the film roll holder.&nbsp; Place in a microwave oven and =
turn=20
the oven on. The 'pop' is the result of the water turning suddenly into=20
steam.&nbsp; The engine I have invented is far more efficient than any =
other=20
steam engine&nbsp; because the efficiency of the magnetron in turning =
water into=20
steam.&nbsp; In fact, the water droplet 'explodes' very much like =
air/gasoline=20
explodes in a conventional internal combustion engine.&nbsp; This engine =
was=20
first tested in 1992.&nbsp; I am however unable to invest the&nbsp; =
required=20
capital to produce a more sophisticated model and therefore unable to =
patent=20
it.&nbsp; Even though I may not be able to profit from this technology, =
it is=20
too good to be kept to myself and I would like to spread it around so =
that=20
others may be able to use it.&nbsp; The following is an outline of how =
to=20
construct the device and a few cautions:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>PARTS NEEDED:<BR>1. Magnetron from medium power microwave =
oven.<BR>2. Small=20
4-stroke single cylinder lawn mover engine or similar engine with 'old =
style'=20
points and ignition system.<BR>3.&nbsp; Automotive alternator with =
built-in=20
rectifier and regulator, also a 12 volt auto battery.<BR>4. "Trigger" =
mechanism=20
from an aircraft "strobe" landing light.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>INSTRUCTIONS:<BR>&nbsp; 1. The magnetron fits into the spark plug=20
hole.<BR>&nbsp; 2. The distributor points are modified so that the =
contact is=20
closed when the piston is at the top dead center and this contact is =
used to=20
activate the aircraft strobe mechanism.<BR>&nbsp; 3.&nbsp; The high =
voltage from=20
the strobe is connected to directly fire the magnetron which in turn =
produces=20
steam which moves the piston.<BR>&nbsp; 4. The engine turns the =
alternator which=20
keeps the battery charged, which supplies the electrical power for the=20
magnetron.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>CAUTIONS: WARNING!!! DANGER!!!! EEEK!!!!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>TIPS:<BR>&nbsp; 1. Be careful around the magnetron. KEEP IT =
SHIELDED WITH=20
METAL.&nbsp; IT CAN CAUSE SEVERE BURNS THAT MAY NOT BE READILY VISIBLE =
WHEN THEY=20
FIRST OCCUR.<BR>&nbsp; 2. The 'strobe' trigger delivers a very high =
voltage=20
which can jump to ground.&nbsp; WEAR RUBBER SOLED SHOES AND INSULATE=20
WELL.<BR>&nbsp; 3. Be sure to modify the distributor points so they =
close at the=20
top dead center. Timing advance depends on the power of the magnetron =
used and=20
the amount of water. Try different carb jet sizes -- drill out if=20
needed.<BR>&nbsp; 4. Due to variables, don't expect high engine speeds =
without a=20
little experimentation due to variables.<BR>&nbsp; 5. Start with a fully =
charged=20
battery or your alternator won't work.<BR>&nbsp; 6. The energy produced =
is in=20
excess of the power required to run the alternator but until you get the =
RPM up,=20
and the parts working in harmony, it may be best to use a battery =
charger=20
instead of an alternator.<BR>&nbsp; 7. An easy way to measure net power =
output=20
after you have the alternator on line is to run a few 12 volt lights =
from the=20
battery.&nbsp; You will see that the battery stays charged even with the =
lights=20
on and the motor keeps on going.<BR>&nbsp; 8.&nbsp; Although I have not =
tried=20
it, the idea of vaporizing water with microwaves should also work well =
in a=20
converted turbine.<BR>SPREAD THIS TECHNOLOGY - IT IS FREE!!&nbsp; PRINT =
THIS=20
BEFORE IT IS DELETED FROM THE NET!&nbsp; MY CODE FOR FUTURE =
IDENTIFICATION IS=20
PANGURBAN</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>O.K., Pangurban my man. Here I am spreading your technology. Run,=20
technology, run! You're free now! I do not know whether this kind of =
engine=20
works. It seems plausible, kind of. Try it!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>John Wiltbank</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0024_01C24E99.CD773660--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 28 14:12:26 2002
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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 17:10:52 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Important Announcement
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That is an important announcement! If it is real, that is.

You have to give credit to this group for showing their magic motor vehicle 
to the public and doing credible tests with realistic measurement 
techniques. (At least, they claim they have done such tests, and they 
describe them in a plausible, capable manner.)

Unfortunately, no one will believe them unless they can find a way to let 
many engineers test the gadget for themselves. It would help tremendously 
if they had a much smaller, portable version. Based on my dealings with 
similar people, I doubt they understand this.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 28 14:21:22 2002
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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 17:19:34 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Bockris paper in LENR.org
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Here is a fascinating review of the early history of cold fusion, and 
Bockris's research & controversy in related areas:

Journal of New Energy, Vol 4, no 2, 1999, p. 40

EARLY CONTRIBUTIONS FROM WORKERS AT TEXAS A&M UNIVERSITY TO (SO-CALLED) LOW 
ENERGY NUCLEAR REACTIONS

J. O'M. Bockris

Paper listed in this index:

http://lenr.org/papers/

Direct link to paper:
http://lenr.org/papers/pdf/BockrisJNE.pdf

LENR.org has attracted hundreds of visitors, and over 2,000 copies of 
papers have been downloaded from it.

Thanks to Hal Fox for permission to reprint, and for providing the paper in 
electronic format (Word Perfect format, which I like).

- Jed


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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Important Announcement
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Jed:

I don't see any free anergy claims here.  Did I miss simething?  All you
have to do to double the range is double the storage...  or cut the
friction in half...  

Once a car is up to speed you need only replace energy lost to to travel.
 It is when you stop and go that you do most of your energy waste

Proving a good electric car is not all that importiant.  Having a market
for one is.  I will ask this one question.  Does it have an air
conditioner?  AC is simply what it will take to have a market.

Most cars have 5000 BUT/hr as required by the thermal load (widnshield if
you are traveling west in the afternoon)  In my case aprosimatly 3600
BTU/hr of solar heat pour through the windshield in the afternoon rush.

An open window and a fan is simply inadiquate when the ambient
temperature over the highway blacktop is about 115F  (20F more then
measured over grass) and the dewpoint is in the 70's 



--- Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:
> That is an important announcement! If it is real, that is.
> 
> You have to give credit to this group for showing their magic motor
> vehicle 
> to the public and doing credible tests with realistic measurement 
> techniques. (At least, they claim they have done such tests, and they 
> describe them in a plausible, capable manner.)
> 
> Unfortunately, no one will believe them unless they can find a way to
> let 
> many engineers test the gadget for themselves. It would help
> tremendously 
> if they had a much smaller, portable version. Based on my dealings with
> 
> similar people, I doubt they understand this.
> 
> - Jed


For further information go to http://www.tilleyfoundation.com/




=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 28 22:15:07 2002
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Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 01:28:45 -0400
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Hi All.

Yes, this is strange indeed. Why go to all the trouble of
building a car, when you could put together a simple demonstrator
to distribute to many interested parties? Haven't they patented
the basic invention yet? If they can reveal none of the inner
workings of the car, then they will never convince people that
they're on the level. I once employed a former Soviet mathematician
who demonstrated to me a physical jesture used in the Ukraine
for this sort of thing. He would take his right arm, stretch it
over and around the back of his head, and scratch his left ear.
Soviet humor is sort of blunt yet very funny in a backhanded
way...

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 5:11 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Important Announcement


That is an important announcement! If it is real, that is.

You have to give credit to this group for showing their magic motor vehicle
to the public and doing credible tests with realistic measurement
techniques. (At least, they claim they have done such tests, and they
describe them in a plausible, capable manner.)

Unfortunately, no one will believe them unless they can find a way to let
many engineers test the gadget for themselves. It would help tremendously
if they had a much smaller, portable version. Based on my dealings with
similar people, I doubt they understand this.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Aug 28 22:19:55 2002
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Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 00:19:13 -0500
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Important Announcement
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>Jed:
>
>I don't see any free anergy claims here.  Did I miss simething?  All you
>have to do to double the range is double the storage...  or cut the
>friction in half...

I wrote the following paragraph to the contact man for the Tilley 
Foundation. He questioned why Hal Puthoff needs a bomb calorimeter in 
order to test F E machines. This issue sounds similar to the 
discussion you are having here, If I wrong, correct me.

My station wagon gets 20 MPG. A gallon of gasoline has 135,000 btu's. 
The engine is about 20% efficient, in turning the energy in the 
gasoline into rotary energy. Consequently 27,000 btu's are required 
in order to move the car 20 miles. The energy in the batteries can be 
calculated based on the number of amps of current they will deliver 
times the number of minutes that they will deliver those amps, until 
they are discharged. That number is multiplied times 12 volts and 
divided by 60 minutes in an hour. this gives the number of watt hours 
that the battery can deliver. You divide that number by 3157 btu's in 
a kilowatt hour. Now you know the number of btu's that the battery 
can deliver, multiply that by 12 batteries, and you know how many 
btu's the battery pack has available. The Delorian is more 
areodynamic than my wagon, but you get the idea, I hope.

>
>Once a car is up to speed you need only replace energy lost to to travel.
>  It is when you stop and go that you do most of your energy waste

Have you ever heard of air resistance? It consumes most of the power 
an automobile's engine generates. Air resistance increases 
dramatically with increased speed, the reason that they are having 
this demonstration on a race track is because the car goes 120 MPH. 
My SWAG of the power required to do this is 50 KW.

If my wagon consumes 27,000 BTU's to go 20 miles then it will consume 
3 times that to go 60 miles, which is one hours driving at 60 MPH, 
87,000 BTU's. divided by 3157 btu's / KW hr that gives the equivelant 
of 26.65 KW hr equivelants. I'm sure that increasing the speed to 120 
would at least double the energy consumption, my SWAG looks good

>
>Proving a good electric car is not all that importiant.  Having a market
>for one is.  I will ask this one question.  Does it have an air
>conditioner?  AC is simply what it will take to have a market.

With 50 KW available, I don't think that turning the air conditioner 
compresser is going to be a problem.

>
>An open window and a fan is simply inadiquate when the ambient
>temperature over the highway blacktop is about 115F  (20F more then
>measured over grass) and the dewpoint is in the 70's
>
No you certainly can't expect and Yuppie capable of affording a new 
car to do without air!


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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 17:24:28 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Charles Ford's message of Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:30:12 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]

>Jed:
>
>I don't see any free anergy claims here.  Did I miss simething?  All you

Yes. They ran a test after removing the on-board charger, running on batteries only, and the car only went 9.8 miles.
In another test, *with* on-board charger, they did 200 miles, and the batteries were fully charged when they got back.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 29 03:44:26 2002
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "Lynne Sparber" <jlsparber earthlink.net>,
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Subject: CNN.com - Spoonful of sugar could get cars zooming - August 28, 2002
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 04:36:59 -0500
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Running fuel cells on syrup, Terry?

 http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/08/28/sugar.cars.reut/index.html

I did this reaction in the mid 70s but Chevron Research Labs (Standard Oil) had
patented it earlier:

1, Starch or Cellulose + Water +--->  Glucose

n C6H10-O5 + n H2O ---> n C6H12O6

2, Glucose + Water + Heat/Catalyst ---> CO2 + Hydrogen + Heat/Catalyst

C6H12O6 (180 lbs) + 6 H2O (108 lbs) ----> 6 CO2 (264 lbs) + 12 H2 (24 lbs)

If you have the energy from about 16 pounds of hydrogen left over after the reaction,
with a fuel cell producing 25 Kw-Hr/Lb a 16 gallon tank of "syrup" should provide 400
Kw-Hr to power a good sized car for about 500 miles.

OTOH, if you turn the starch or cellulose to glucose and ferment it to Ethanol in
ADM-Sized  Ethanol Plants, the on-board reaction is just as simple, and the
Ethanol-Water mix is it's own anti-freeze, as any moonshiner in Georgia can tell you.
:-)

Ethanol + Water + Heat + Catalyst ---> CO2 + H2

2 CH3CH2OH (92 lbs) + 6 H2O (108 lbs) ---> 4 CO2 (176 lbs) +  12 H2 (24 lbs)

Same difference as the syrup and easier to do onboard with a 30 gallon "gas" tank, and
a metering pump, and easier to handle at your local gas station (or pub).   :-)

Fred





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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 29 04:55:52 2002
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        "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>,
        "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger suite224.net>, <SRrussell@suite224.net>
Subject: Re: Ethanol vs Syrup-Powered Fuel Cells 
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 05:48:58 -0500
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See also:

http://www.agday.com/dailyarchive/10-25-01.txt

October 25, 2001
News

"ADM Ethanol:
There are more signs that the ethanol industry is continuing to grow this year.  The
nation's
largest ethanol producer says it's facilities are now running at full capacity.
Illinois based
Archer Daniels Midland can produce 950 million gallons of ethanol a year.  Which is
about half
of the nation's annual production.  ADM says it's actively looking to expand
production at
existing plants to help meet the growing demand for ethanol.  The entire ethanol
industry has
seen steady increases for nearly two years now.  And the switch to ethanol in
California is
expected to generate a need for another 500 million gallons of ethanol each year."

With the ~ 50% Ethanol-Water Mix (~ 100 proof) Detroit could modify standard Internal
Combustion engines to run on it efficiently as the transition to fuel cell-powered
cars continues.

This mix  won't freeze above minus 50 F.

Works in my lawn mower too, and I didn't use any microwaves either. :-)

Fred


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Subject: Re: Ethanol vs Syrup-Powered Fuel Cells
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The other side of the coin is the difficulty with the Steam Reforming of Ethanol and
the ~ 500 degree C (932 deg F)temperature required as opposed to the glucose "syrup"
approach that only requires 392 F (200 degree C) temperatures.

http://www.aiche.org/conferences/techprogram/paperdetail.asp?PaperID=938&DSN=annual2k


"Mechanism and Kinetics of the Steam Reforming of Ethanol on a Ni Catalyst.

Abstract:

Watery ethanol, a renewable fuel, is an excellent fuel for reforming
into a hydrogen gas stream suitable for use in fuel cells. Ethanol is
largely free of catalyst poisons such as sulfur that are common in fossil
fuels and reforms at moderate temperatures (~ 500 ºC). The steam reforming
of ethanol on a Ni based catalyst is shown to be a feasible process for
production of hydrogen with only small amounts of methane being formed.
However, the product of steam reforming contains substantial amounts of
carbon monoxide, requiring the use of water gas shift reactor following the
steam reformer."

Fred




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--- thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com> wrote:
> >Jed:
> >I don't see any free anergy claims here.  Did I miss simething?  All
> you
> >have to do to double the range is double the storage...  or cut the
> >friction in half...
> 
> I wrote the following paragraph to the contact man for the Tilley 

And effectively repeated what I said without answering the question...

No free energy claim ?  What's the big deal then?

If you want folks to stop using gasolene cars you have to provide
competitave cars that do not use gas. 

Consider this.  The cost of using a car for 5 years.

Assuming a 25mile consume and 25mpg fuel is costing say 1.30/gal
if you drive to work 50 weeks in a year 5 days a week that is 250 days of
commute at 2 miles a day.  This is 500 * 1.3 =  $650/year  about what
most folks are paying for liability insurance.  Over a 5 year period that
is a cost of $3250 wich is overshadowed by the cost of same car at
$18000.

If you spend the same amount on the E-car and the performance is simular
then all you are talking about is features.

So you have to power ABS (antiloc breaks), Power steering, Heat/AC,
Wompem-sterio, electric windows, reer window defrost, steerin-wheel
heater, and a whole rat's nest of other crap that people wnat and can
have for nothing when they buy a car...

No free energy claim ?  What's the big deal then?


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

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--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> Yes. They ran a test after removing the on-board charger, running on
> batteries only, and the car only went 9.8 miles.
> In another test, *with* on-board charger, they did 200 miles, and the
> batteries were fully charged when they got back.
> 

Yes...  But what does the onboard charger do?

Does it pulse the batteries? causing them to perform way better then
normal.  

If so you will spend more on replacement batteries then you would have
normally on fuel.

Is it a free energy device?  Then why hide it in a pile of batteries?

I will be watching this progress...

I expect one of three things to happen.

1) The car will not put up to the extended test
or
2) The car will do fine proving nothing
or
3) The car will do most of the job then die.  Proving much... 

Mu point is if you have FE and can prove it then say so.
Otherwise they are designing a really cool E-car...

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
http://finance.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 29 07:10:25 2002
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Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 07:08:14 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Important Announcement
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: knagel gis.net
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> Yes, this is strange indeed. Why go to all the trouble of
> building a car, when you could put together a simple demonstrator
> to distribute to many interested parties? Haven't they patented
> the basic invention yet?

Please don't confuse me with Randi, but here are some predictions:

1) The concept is based on Joe Newman's battery/coil/sparking configuration
2) Sometime soon, Joe Newman will claim fraud and theft
3) The car will indeed run several hundred miles on  batteries with the
technology,
which results in accelerated depletion of the lead plates
4) The batteries will fail after 20,000 miles or less - replacement cost $1500

I hope these predictions do not come true...

BTW, don't forget that Newman put together a car first also and that his demo
attracted national attention and that the resultant publicity was all he needed
to make a small fortune, selling not cars or motors, but grossly overpriced
books and videos.

I wonder if Tilley is into self-publishing...

OTOH, maybe this car has been fitted with the microwave lawnmower engine....or
better yet, maybe this is the one he bought from Michael J. Fox...

Regards,

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 29 07:16:47 2002
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Charles Ford wrote:

>And effectively repeated what I said without answering the question...
>
>No free energy claim ?  What's the big deal then?

It is a free energy claim. The reported performance would put the car well 
beyond the "limits of chemistry"; that is, the thermodynamic limits of this 
machinery. They claim that after the car was driven 102 miles the batteries 
"tested at full charge." See:

http://www.tilleyfoundation.com/validation.htm

That would require an anomalous source of energy or a violation of the 
conservation of energy.

This a "binary" or stark claim. Either it is true or fraudulent. There is 
no leeway for error as far as I can tell.

Keith Nagel said, "Why go to all the trouble building a car . . ." I wrote: 
". . . no one will believe them unless they can find a way to let many 
engineers test the gadget for themselves. It would help tremendously if 
they had a much smaller, portable version." It is inexplicable, but there 
is often something about the personalities people who build these things 
that lead them to perform demonstrations of this nature. They think that 
only a "practical" or large-scale motor has sales prospects.

A surprising number of well educated engineers and scientists also feel 
that a generator or motor must be in the kilowatt range to be practical. 
They fail to understand that most machines use 250 watts or less, and the 
smaller the power source, the higher the premium -- the profit per watt. 
You could make a quick fortune selling small CF generators of the size, 
form factor and capacity of a D-cell battery or a pacemaker battery. 
Assuming there are no safety concerns, this would be a much easier sell 
than automobile engines or home generators, and *much* easier than 
utility-scale megawatt power generators. It might take years to retool an 
automobile factory to accommodate a radically new engine type, and it will 
surely take hundreds of millions of dollars. Whereas if you could make a CF 
replacement for the battery in a portable computer, camera or flashlight 
the product could be ready in a few months. You could sell billions of 
dollars worth the first year. (Your CF battery factory might take years to 
build, but once it begins cranking out products, the computer & camera 
manufacturers could adapt very quickly, compared to the automobile maker.)

The power companies, with their megawatt generators, are so slow and 
inflexible that I doubt they will ever adapt to CF. They will go bankrupt 
instead, like the passenger railroads in competition with cars and 
airplanes. Also, there is no economic justification for large-scale CF 
reactors or a distribution network. The electricity would cost 2 or 3 times 
more than locally generated power.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 29 07:33:00 2002
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I could ask Dr. Pimentel to be sure, but I believe this is another 
"negative energy" production system, similar to corn ethanol. The sole 
purpose of the corn ethanol program is to fleece the taxpayers for $700 
million and hand over a few billion dollars of extra profit to OPEC and the 
coal industry. It converts 1.7 MJ of chemical fossil fuel into 1 MJ of 
ethanol, while wreaking havoc on the land and using up vast quantities of 
fresh water.

Things like this demonstrate how far from capitalism some sectors of the 
U.S. economy have drifted. Farmers and other supposedly conservative people 
are the most blatant welfare cheats in the country.

Given our present agricultural machinery, I do not think it is possible to 
grow any crop and convert it to energy at a net energy profit, except 
firewood grown nearby the people who cut and burn it. The amount of energy 
in food production waste products is very small, because U.S. people & 
livestock eat much less energy than we consume in machinery. Of course 
there is some energy in agricultural waste, just as there is in industrial 
and municipal waste. When this energy can be used in clean, safe generators 
or gasification, it should be, but it cannot provide more than a tiny 
fraction of our energy.

- Jed


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On 8/29/02 7:15 AM, "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

> It is a free energy claim. The reported performance would put the car well
> beyond the "limits of chemistry"; that is, the thermodynamic limits of this
> machinery. They claim that after the car was driven 102 miles the batteries
> "tested at full charge." See:
> 
> http://www.tilleyfoundation.com/validation.htm
> 
> That would require an anomalous source of energy or a violation of the
> conservation of energy.


This is correct. The Tilley claim IS for an anomalous source of energy. This
is obvious from the web site. They claim that a 10kW-capable generator (with
no power source feeding it) powers the very facility that helped produce the
electric vehicle motor/generator.

I have spoken to Carl Tilley and his wife and they seem to be quite
straightforward, but he may well be deluded. We shall see. He is sending me
some more information which I will evaluate in the context of what happens
(or does not happen) on Sept 7th in Nashville.

Tilley HAS filed for a US Patent -- filing was last February, they say.  He
said he has worked on this idea for 18 years, at an integrated cost of
$500k. (His wife told me that Carl Tilley had been a US Navy SEAL; maybe
someone should call Jesse Ventura to confirm this!)

Tilley does have a smaller working unit, about 1 ft^3 which he calls his
"yellow box."  It is powered by a 12 volt deep cycle rechargeable battery
which does not lower in voltage, he says, even when run for a half-hour or
so plugged into about a half-dozen major appliances -- color TV, various
saws -- the usual stuff mentioned by similar inventors in the past.

The performance of his vehicle, as he describes it, seems to be at the high
end of EV performance (forget the claim of battery self-charging for a
moment). He intends to drive the vehicle at up to 90 mph ("maybe higher")
for many hours.  He will allow anyone who shows up in Nashville to use their
own equipment to measure voltage of the 12, 12-volt battery pack -- before
and after.  If he really does go hundreds of miles (he said he was aiming
for 500-700), and  at the same time does it at 60-90 mph, that would be an
extraordinary accomplishment --*even within the context of conventional
(non-new physics) EV's*. If the battery pack stays  fully charged for any
significant time during such a run, and IF all other hidden sources can be
ruled out with high confidence (i.e. No sound or smell of a  "hidden" fossil
fuel engine), it is likely that his vehicle does operate on new principles.
So, he could make quite a bit of hay with such a demo.

Cold fusion researcher Dennis Cravens once had plans to drive across the US
in a CF powered VW (monitored round the clock by TV cameras from the media),
IF he could devise one. He even went so far as to acquire an old VW bug for
that purpose and it is still sitting at his place, I believe. That would
have been an excellent, convincing demo of CF capability, but alas, no such
CF engine has ever been built --some day, maybe.

I suggested to Tilley the idea of allowing his small unit to be sold as a
scientific demonstration device.  This seemed like a novel concept to him.
The good news is that he has not ruled that out :)  On the other hand, for
the near term, he does not want anyone looking into the innards of his
"yellow box" or the innards of the car's motor.   He says there has been
considerable media interest in this run on Sept. 7th, so we shall see what
happens.  Also, he claims that a handful of automobile companies have
visited him already and are showing interest. Such mega-companies, however,
have not acted appropriately in the past when confronted with something
radically new to evaluate, so IF Tilley really has something, I assume these
car companies (if real) would do nothing at all.

Before all the BS gets slung, let me state that I neither believe nor
disbelieve in this Tilley claim, but I very much hope it is real -- a very
nice bit of news, pre-September 11, 2002! I am happy that he intends to
demonstrate his claims via the car run in public view. This is a good first
step. 

I am even happier that he has batteries in the loop, since it fits in with
the physics of excess energy that is present in special systems in which
charged species of radically different mass are active.  (e.g. the Aspden
electric force law and Correa PAGD work).  The Tilley device(s) may, of
course, be a delusion or a hoax, and have nothing to do with the excellent
published work of these other researchers.

Since I cannot make it to the Sept 7th demo, if anyone plans to be at the
event, I would appreciate knowing.  Your report will be considered for
publication in infinite Energy.

Sincerely,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
Director, New Energy Research Laboratory
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816
   editor infinite-energy.com
   www.infinite-energy.com
Ph: 603-228-4516
Fx: 603-224-5975


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Subject: Re: Ethanol vs Syrup-Powered Fuel Cells
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: Ethanol vs Syrup-Powered Fuel Cells

Jed wrote:


> I could ask Dr. Pimentel to be sure, but I believe this is another
> "negative energy" production system, similar to corn ethanol.

Corn ethanol (about 2.5 gallons/bushel) is made from corn starch which is first cooked
and converted to Glucose "sugar" using enzymes. The glucose is then it is fermented to
ethanol. The highly nutritious residues (distillers grains)  makes a high protein
animal feed .

The article claims/suggests that direct conversion of the transportable Glucose-Water
solution to CO2 and Hydrogen at about 392 F  without all the energy losses of corn
ethanol production is possible.

WWII Germany did an energy efficient job of converting the cellulose of wood chips
and/or straw to glucose on a major scale.

>The sole
> purpose of the corn ethanol program is to fleece the taxpayers for $700
> million and hand over a few billion dollars of extra profit to OPEC and the
> coal industry. It converts 1.7 MJ of chemical fossil fuel into 1 MJ of
> ethanol, while wreaking havoc on the land and using up vast quantities of
> fresh water.

Agreed. If the subsidy was based on using the corn stover
and other agricultural  wastes instead for fueling the corn ethanol process with the
1.7 MJ of fossil fuel....
>
> Things like this demonstrate how far from capitalism some sectors of the
> U.S. economy have drifted. Farmers and other supposedly conservative people
> are the most blatant welfare cheats in the country.

Amen, brother.   :-)
>
> Given our present agricultural machinery, I do not think it is possible to
> grow any crop and convert it to energy at a net energy profit, except
> firewood grown nearby the people who cut and burn it.

Hogwash, Jed.


> The amount of energy
> in food production waste products is very small, because U.S. people &
> livestock eat much less energy than we consume in machinery.

Hoe, Hoe, Hoe? Back to a hunter-gatherer society?

>Of course
> there is some energy in agricultural waste, just as there is in industrial
> and municipal waste. When this energy can be used in clean, safe generators
> or gasification, it should be, but it cannot provide more than a tiny
> fraction of our energy.

Nonsense, Sugar Cane, Bamboo and other fast growing crops (the C4 photosynthesis
pathway) can produce more than 100 Tons of Glucose per acre/year.

Regards,    Frederick

>
> - Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 29 10:19:12 2002
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Hello All.

>This is correct. The Tilley claim IS for an anomalous source of energy.
This
>is obvious from the web site. They claim that a 10kW-capable generator
(with
>no power source feeding it) powers the very facility that helped produce
the
>electric vehicle motor/generator.

That's even more crazy. He can't sell a 10KW OU generator??? That strains
credibility to the breaking point.

>Tilley HAS filed for a US Patent -- filing was last February, they say.  He
>said he has worked on this idea for 18 years, at an integrated cost of
>$500k. (His wife told me that Carl Tilley had been a US Navy SEAL; maybe
>someone should call Jesse Ventura to confirm this!)

But of course we all know that published patent applications begin March
2001.
And he filed February 2001? That's very convienent. And quite uncheckable.

Regarding Seal status, please ask Mr. Tilley for his class number, that
would be his BUD/S class#. Also his dates of service. This CAN be checked,
and a positive result would lend at least some credence to his claims.
I can perform the check with this info. Also, his approx age and current
location.

>Tilley does have a smaller working unit, about 1 ft^3 which he calls his
>"yellow box."  It is powered by a 12 volt deep cycle rechargeable battery
>which does not lower in voltage, he says, even when run for a half-hour or
>so plugged into about a half-dozen major appliances -- color TV, various
>saws -- the usual stuff mentioned by similar inventors in the past.

This is magic Gene, not science. Magic shows you a trick. Science reveals
the secret. The test described would indeed show OU, if an independent 3rd
party were to conduct it. Allowing me to check the battery voltage is
meaningless if there is another motor onboard, yes?? And with a black
(yellow)
box, there is no way to know. He can drive the car from here to Singapore
and back and I'm still forced to take his word for it. Yet a 1 watt
generator
provided to others would establish proof beyond a shadow of doubt.
He claims a 10 KW generator. What's wrong with this picture?

K.


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--- Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:
> Charles Ford wrote:
> 
> >And effectively repeated what I said without answering the question...
> >
> >No free energy claim ?  What's the big deal then?
> 
> It is a free energy claim. The reported performance would put the car
> well 
> beyond the "limits of chemistry"; that is, the thermodynamic limits of
> this 
> machinery. They claim that after the car was driven 102 miles the
> batteries 
> "tested at full charge." See:
> 
> http://www.tilleyfoundation.com/validation.htm
> 


But we can already do this with a battery...  Also it rips up the plates
bringing on the early demise of the cell. Also Batteries do not charge at
100% efficency especially form square zero.  They have to be precharged.

This would have to be proven with multiple repitetion using the smae
bateries.  Monitored charging and discharging. 

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 29 11:05:16 2002
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>(His wife told me that Carl Tilley had been a US Navy SEAL; maybe
>someone should call Jesse Ventura to confirm this!)
>

Well, he's not on the Wall of Shame:

http://www.cyberseals.org/reportst.htm

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 29 14:02:55 2002
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Ok folks it is pretty simple here.  The Battery pulsing system is a
common method of gaining deeper charging cycles.

Precharge (embeding) may be used by pulsing the battery. If this is in
fact what is happening then multiple repititions using the same batteries
and monitoring the charging and discharging will show that each time he
charges the car it takes more and more energy to arrive at full or that
the battery charge range is reduced after several uses.

There are dozens of scams based on pulsing batteries.  When you pulse you
can multiply the charge cycle debth several times.  Actually increasing
the usable capacity of the battery.  That is NOT free energy it is energy
that you put into the battery but cannot be used in a discharge only
mode.

Pulsing agitates the embeded materials (look at the rings between 2 and
6MHz)allowing them to cycle (discharge) as well.

As far as the integrity of the 'advertisement'  Let this be an example.

The power estimate used to explain this is greatly overstated.  e.g  Most
passenger cars require aproximatly 5HP to travel over a level road at
60MPH  The DeLorian is special.  An underpan and verry low profile
together wiht an efficent drive train design make it able to do this job
with much less power. 

&gt; equivelant of 26.65 KW hr equivelants. I'm sure that increasing the
&gt; speed to 120 would at least double the energy consumption, my SWAG
&gt; looks good

No its X4  air friction is a square relationship.
For those who don't know SWAG Scientific Wild Ass Gues.  A personal
favorate. :-)

In the one hour discussed 26 KWh/hr is 26 KW...  Geese  that's 35HP and
probably about 3X what it takes to run the D at 120.  Estimating running
power from fuel consumption is an idiots game.  You are not considering
the types of fuel waste that are diferent with an electric motor. e/g No
need to idle the engine and a much wider efficent regon in the power
curve. Internal combustion engines are up to 20% efficent not always 20%
When fully loaded and at a very narrow range of RPM you can squeek out
that 20%.  You are also comparing start and stop gas engine to constant
running electric. 

Truth is apples are not oranges.


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 29 15:53:46 2002
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Subject: Re: Important Announcement I bet they stole Newman's technology
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Joe Newman had the same thing.  I bet stole the idea lock stock and barrel.

You all know how that went.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 29 16:11:31 2002
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Frederick Sparber wrote:


> > Given our present agricultural machinery, I do not think it is possible to
> > grow any crop and convert it to energy at a net energy profit, except
> > firewood grown nearby the people who cut and burn it.
>
>Hogwash, Jed.

It isn't my assertion. You would have to dispute Pimentel's numbers.


> > The amount of energy
> > in food production waste products is very small, because U.S. people &
> > livestock eat much less energy than we consume in machinery.
>
>Hoe, Hoe, Hoe? Back to a hunter-gatherer society?

You seem to have missed the point. My assertion has nothing to do with the 
energy used by tractors and food preparation machinery. I am comparing the 
total joules of mechanical energy per person to the joules of food energy 
consumed per person (including food eaten by livestock the person later 
eats). The energy captured by all crops and production forests (that is, 
wood used in industry) per annum is only ~30% of the fossil fuel energy. 
(Pimentel, p. 21) The energy in the leftovers from food preparation is only 
a small fraction of this, because we eat most of the energy available in 
food. We eat the grain; the remaining stalk has little food value. In other 
words, the total leftover energy from the food you eat is a small fraction 
of the energy you consume in gasoline, coal, hydroelectric and nuclear power.

Suppose the entire U.S. land area is used to grow wood, bamboo, or any 
other plant for biomass fuel. I mean we stop growing food, and we cut down 
every acre of wilderness, and knock down all houses to grow biomass 
instead. (We starve.) Suppose all of this biomass is converted to oil or 
gas with 100% efficiency. It will produce about half of the energy we now 
consume in fossil fuel. (Also p. 21) There is no way biomass can provide a 
significant fraction of our required energy. This is because plants growing 
outdoors in North America convert only 0.1% of the available sunlight into 
energy. That's hopelessly inefficient.


>Nonsense, Sugar Cane, Bamboo and other fast growing crops (the C4 
>photosynthesis pathway) can produce more than 100 Tons of Glucose per 
>acre/year.

As I said, we could plant the whole continent full of any crop you name, 
and it would not meet more than half of our needs. Nothing grows in winter. 
In the tropics, they get plenty of sunlight but there is not enough water, 
so efficiency is still around 0.1%.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Aug 29 17:18:10 2002
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Hi All.

Jed Writes:
>The energy captured by all crops and production forests (that is, 
>wood used in industry) per annum is only ~30% of the fossil fuel energy. 
>(Pimentel, p. 21)

Page 21 of what? Perhaps I missed the ref in another thread.

A quick search, and I found this grim report

http://www.academicpress.com/epst/biomass.pdf 

by same. Is this essentially the same thing?


I know Fred S. has some interesting ideas w/ respect
to biomass, how is that pet project of yours coming along
Fred??? 

K.

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--- FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:
&gt; Joe Newman had the same thing.  I bet stole the idea lock stock and
&gt; barrel.
&gt; 
&gt; You all know how that went.
&gt; 


Some predictions no mater how sarcastically they where made are destine
to come true...

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: RE: Ethanol vs Syrup-Powered Fuel Cells
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMAEAFDFAA.knagel gis.net>
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Keith Nagel wrote:

> >The energy captured by all crops and production forests (that is,
> >wood used in industry) per annum is only ~30% of the fossil fuel energy.
> >(Pimentel, p. 21)
>
>Page 21 of what?

The book D. Pimentel & M. Pimentel eds., "Food, Energy and Society," 
(University Press of Colorado, 1996). Recommended.


>A quick search, and I found this grim report
>
>http://www.academicpress.com/epst/biomass.pdf
>
>by same. Is this essentially the same thing?

Actually, this paper has more detail than the book chapter.

Pimentel is conservative and some of his numbers appear to be 
underestimates, but they are in reasonable agreement with other 
authoritative sources. Even if he is wrong by a large factor, he has still 
shown convincingly that biomass can only meet a tiny fraction of our energy 
needs.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 30 08:12:25 2002
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From: "Pierre.CLAUZON" <pierre.clauzon wanadoo.fr>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Subject: Climate
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 17:14:33 +0200
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Dear vortexians,
You must be interested by the following adress, even for those not too much
fluent in French...
You will find, Jed, some interesting remarks on the costs of  renewable
energies...
Best regards    PPC


-----Message d'origine-----
> De : Jean-Marc Jancovici [mailto:jmj manicore.com]
> Envoyé : jeudi 29 août 2002 19:26
> À : info manicore.com
> Objet : Rentrée climatique
>
>
>   Chers amis, collègues et correspondants,
>
> C'est la rentrée ! Avec les colchiques et les champignons, rien de tel
> qu'un petit coup de changement climatique pour se remettre dans le bain
> et se préparer aux pluies d'automne (les organisateurs de Johannesburg
> ne font rien qu'à copier sur moi). A cette fin je vous propose
> ci-dessous le résultat de mes devoirs de vacances :
>
> - les énergies renouvelables, tout le monde est pour. Mais au fait,
> pourrions nous conserver notre niveau actuel de consommation matérielle
> en occident avec juste ces énergies ?
> http://www.manicore.com/documentation/renouvelables.html
>
> - les émissions de gaz à effet de serre, cela se mesure. Comme charité
> bien ordonnée etc, je me suis livré au calcul de la contribution de ma
> propre famille pour illustrer le propos et montrer la part de chaque
> élément de confort ou de consommation :
> http://www.manicore.com/documentation/serre/jancovici.html
>
> - Au chapitre de l'autopromotion, j'ai reproduit mon audition par le
> sénateur Deneux, dans le cadre du rapport de l'OPECST sur le changement
> climatique (ce qui, à tout prendre, vaut mieux qu'une audition à la
> brigade financière) :
> http://www.manicore.com/documentation/articles/audition_deneux.html
>
> - mon banquier comptant beaucoup sur mes droits d'auteur pour boucher le
> trou provoqué par mes somptuaires dépenses estivales, j'ai aussi ajouté
> les dernières critiques de "L'Avenir Climatique" pour augmenter les
> ventes :
> http://www.manicore.com/documentation/articles/avenir_critiques.html.
>
> - enfin j'ai ajouté une page à ma rubrique "ils font de l'écologie sans
> (nécessairement) le savoir : les autonomistes corses !
> http://www.manicore.com/documentation/ecologistes/corses.html
>
> Sur ce bonne lecture pour ceux qui iront s'y risquer, et très bonne
> rentrée à tous,
>
> Jean-Marc Jancovici
>
> Abonnements et désabonnements à cette liste de diffusion :
> http://www.manicore.com/liste.html
> Retrouvez l'intégralité des actualités :
> http://www.manicore.com/actualites.html
>
> --
> ______________________________________________________
> Ce que je fais, comment me joindre,
> et quelques petites informations sur
> l'énergie et le changement climatique :
> http://www.manicore.com
> ______________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> Pour vous désabonner de ce groupe, il suffit d'envoyer un email à :
> nucleaire-unsubscribe egroups.fr
>
>
>
> L'utilisation du service Yahoo! Groupes est soumise à l'acceptation des
> Conditions d'utilisation et de la Charte sur la vie privée, disponibles
> respectivement sur http://fr.docs.yahoo.com/info/utos.html et
> http://fr.docs.yahoo.com/info/privacy.html
>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 30 08:34:58 2002
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Fast-Growing Energy Crops and Glucose         
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 09:25:50 -0500
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Fast-growing energy crops can produce glucose in enormous quantities, as
starch,cellulose,(glucose polymers) or plant liquids.

 http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/bfdpmain.html

The U.S. Department of Energy's (DOE) Bioenergy Feedstock Development Programs (BFDP)
are mission-oriented programs of research and analysis whose goals are to develop and
demonstrate environmentally acceptable crops and cropping systems for producing large
quantities of low-cost, high-quality biomass feedstocks.

http://picturethis.pnl.gov/picturet.nsf/All/5AKU7G?opendocument

This is a picture of the glucose molecule C6-H12-O6

Black, carbon atom.
Red,  oxygen atom
Gray, hydrogen atom

The glucose molecule can be combined with 6 H2O
molecules to form 6 CO2 molecules and 12 H2 molecules.

Thus, the hydrogen "storage capacity" is 12lbs/lbH2

Regards,   Frederick


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 30 10:51:56 2002
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Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 11:58:45 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Climate
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That is interesting. I can make out enough French to see the point being 
made here:

"Ce recyclage soit intéressant du point de vue énergétique. Par exemple, 
aujourd'hui, fabriquer du papier à partir de bois ou à partir de papier 
recyclé est à peu près équivalent du point de vue énergétique (dit 
autrement, partir de papier recyclé ne permet pas d'économiser de l'énergie 
pour la fabrication du papier "neuf"). Penser que l'on peut acheter plein 
de papier sans impact sur l'environnement si l'on fait l'effort de le 
mettre ensuite à la poubelle à papier est donc hélas un leurre. . . ."

The economics and environmental impact described here would be changed 
completely by cold fusion. I hope that it would encourage more recycling, 
but CF might tend to make virgin materials cheaper. More recycling would 
have to be encouraged by legislation and social pressure.

(By the way, people who cannot read French will understand the gist of this 
text using the Babblefish utility at: http://world.altavista.com/tr. It is 
hopeless with Japanese, but technical French text such as the above works 
okay.)

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 30 11:14:11 2002
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Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 14:13:00 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Another Bockris paper on LENR.org
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Here is another fine paper by Bockris:

http://lenr.org/papers/pdf/BockrisIE.pdf

Thanks to Gene Mallove for permission to reprint, and for providing the 
paper in electronic format.

LENR.org now has 49 papers on file. In August so far, 4,122 copies have 
been downloaded. Imagine how many more activity the site would generate if 
we had hundreds of papers! I wish the other CF scientists & publishers 
would cooperate as much as Bockris, Miles, Fox and Mallove have.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Aug 30 21:43:46 2002
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Aug 30, 2002
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 16:19:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 30 Aug 02   Washington, DC

1. LANCE BASS: "GONE-GONE CLUBBIN', I'LL BE BACK LATE."  At the
Johnson Space Center in Houston yesterday, singer/astronaut Lance
Bass mugged for the cameras and responded to questions from an
audience of 9 to 12-year olds.  Bass's $20M fare on the Russian
Soyuz vacation-special will be picked up by commercial sponsors
lined up by Destiny Productions, a Hollywood entertainment
company.  His trip will "inspire the next generation of space
explorers," NASA explained, but the real message was "skip the
hard stuff like math and science; be a pop singer and you can do
anything you want."  It all seemed so "right" for a space station
that had no serious purpose in the first place.

2. THE PEACE BUSINESS: EARN MONEY WHILE CREATING WORLD PEACE. 
Have I got a deal for you!  The stock market tanked, interest
rates bottomed, municipal bonds were gobbled up, but how about
"peace bonds"?  Two weeks after 9/11, the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi
ran a full-page ad in major papers across the nation appealing
for donations of $1 billion to fund an elite corps of 40,000
trained Yogic Fliers to "generate a powerful, scientifically-
proven unified consciousness field," that would create permanent
world peace (WN 28 Sep 01).  To say he was disappointed by the
response would seriously understate his reaction, but he has
forgiven us.  He now plans to fund the project with bonds issued
by the Global Country of World Peace, a virtual nation he founded
last year.  It's a powerful concept.  Imagine 40,000 Yogic Fliers
in the lotus position, launching themselves a few inches off the
floor by constricting their sphincter muscles in unison. 

3. R&D: PANEL URGES "RE-BALANCING" OF LIFE AND PHYSICAL SCIENCES.
It is a measure of the graying of Congress that funding for those
programs directly related to extending life rose dramatically in
recent years relative to funding for programs in the physical
sciences.  The number of engineering, physical and environmental
science degrees has been falling since the early 1990s.  Harold
Varmus, former director of NIH, observed that "scientists can
wage an effective war on disease only if we harness the energies
of many disciplines, not just biology and medicine."  A panel of
the President's Council of Advisors on Science and Technology
seems finally to have taken notice of what Varmus was saying.  In
a draft report now undergoing final revision, the panel concludes
that: "Given the decreases in the physical sciences over the past
decade, the focus must be to achieve a re-balance by increasing
these disciplines and not by decreasing the life sciences."  The
report calls for bringing the physical sciences into "parity"
with the life science over the next 5 budget cycles.  It also
calls on the Office of Science and Technology Policy to monitor
basic and applied research levels, ensuring that they don't slip
from their present level as a percent of total U.S. R&D.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Aug 31 04:14:36 2002
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From: "Nicholas Reiter" <nreiter woh.rr.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "James DeMeo" <demeo mind.net>
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Subject: Radioactive Fungi: Second Round
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 07:12:48 -0400
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Gentlemen,

When last I wrote, I had posted a link to the paper Sam Faile and I had
generated on the apparent alteration of radioactive decay by a fungus.  Some
of you had replied with some very helpful ideas.  I proceeded with a second
round experiment, using a more diluted thorium nitrate solution as the
"tracer", but adding also some samples laced with uranyl acetate.

This time, the results were more convoluted, but one can see amidst the
goings-on the same basic effect as last time.  The maverick out of the bunch
was the control tub with uranyl acetate...a rogue fungus got cultured in it,
and the CPM went through the roof!

This time, I tried to do some decent EDS work, and did see some POSSIBLY
significant peaks of elements that appear to be products of whatever is
going on.  But maybe these are natural daughter products of U and Th over 2
weeks time?  Not enough of a nuclear chemist to say.

Here is the link: http://www.geocities.com/spfaile/RadioFungi_partII.html

All comments and critiques welcomed.

NR

