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Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 12:01:13 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Fire from Ice : Rapid Sublimation as a possible free energy source
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Greetings,

In an upcoming issue of Infinite Energy, an  English colleague, Frank =
Grimer, will be explaining his theoretical ideas regarding =
"beta-aether", i.e. what we yanks might call the ZPF, and his belief =
after years of work in structural engineering that much of what we =
consider to be the inherent strength of materials is in fact the result =
of what can best be described as "pressure" which is *external* to the =
material . He has interesting proof.

As a practical implementation of these ideas, it may be possible to =
extract so-called "free energy" from this beta-aether in rather unique =
ways, though this prospect is still little more than a wild idea propped =
up by a crude experiment. The key factor to this method of coalescing =
ZPF nano-pressure into heat may be found in the application of "triaxial =
tension" to a candidate material.=20

This required kind of balanced tension does not necessarily need to be =
applied with external force, as is traditionally done, and in fact might =
be more efficiently and elegantly applied with a vacuum!

This work and the theory behind it is directly related to, and may even =
better explain, both sonofusion and cavitation. In both cases, I see =
little evidence of real D+D fusion but lots of evidence for =
supra-chemical reactions, i.e. reactions that go beyond valence =
electrons and may even employ k-shell electron interactions (these are =
sometimes referred to as ballotechnic reactions - and have unfortunately =
been cloaked in secrecy because of the military implications). K-shell =
interactions may be instigated when Casimir-type pressures accelerate =
valence electrons, or some other virtual or real particle, into the =
innermost orbitals of adjoining atoms.

After some brainstorming, we have recently pinpointed one unusual way in =
which we might be able to apply a balanced "triaxial tension" in such a =
way as to create repeatable coherence of ZP field energy, or beta-aether =
pressure, in the real world. Preliminary experiments have just gotten =
underway. Here is a draft of the modus operandi:

Rapid Sublimation of Ice

Can the rapid sublimation of water ice into steam be incorporated into =
the mechanics of a source of free energy extraction in a device that =
attempts to cohere the energy of the vacuum, the beta-aether or ZPE?

Perhaps it can, as there exists in nature a robust source of untapped =
pressure at the nanoscale level, the Casimir and the Van der Waals =
forces being other names for the phenomenon.

Under certain circumstances, this nanoscale pressure may be adequate to =
accelerate the heating of a solid such as water ice so that it =
sublimates very quickly with cavitation effects. In the process, it =
might be possible to capture
ZPE "free energy" in the form of heat and convert that heating effect =
into mechanical energy by means of a resultant high-ratio expansion of a =
solid into a gas to drive a piston or turbine, or to capture an EM pulse =
from such a micro-explosion.

Water Ice explosions (due to applied pressure) have been reported in =
scientific literature accompanied by bursts of EM radiation extending =
into the x-ray range of energies. Is this possible from normal =
fracturing dynamics, or is it evidence of a ZPE anomaly? Structural =
tension testing of materials sometimes produces soft x-rays as well. BTW =
 the most apparent energy spectrum for radiation from these, as well as =
certain other LENR and CF effects, is up into the "soft" x-ray energy =
range - that is, in the 10s of keV, exactly what one expects to find =
from k-shell interactions and Auger cascades.

The precise mechanics of such a putative k-shell interaction could be =
the result of Casimir-type pressures at nanometer dimensions acting on =
valence electrons or else on some form of virtual particles in such a =
way as to accelerate the particles into inner orbitals - following which =
an Auger cascade creates further EM radiation that is eventually =
down-converted into heat. The Pope Cavitation Kinetic Furnace, if it was =
ever OU at all, may have unwittingly exploited this mechanism - but in a =
brute force, rather than an elegant way.

Water is unique in that upon turning from a liquid to a solid, it =
expands rather than contracts.  The resultant solid may then be =
immediately self-stressed into "triaxial tension" but probably not in a =
planar form. In a 3-D sphere of optimum dimensions, the beta-aether ZPE =
pressure which holds the ice crystal together and gives it compressive =
strength, is increased. The effect might be intensified when ice is =
formed around a nanoscale vacuum chamber - a buckeyball, or fullerene.  =
In its hexagonal "snowflake" configuration, ice is less likely to feel =
triaxial tension but many kinds of stiff templates such as fullerenes or =
certain zeolites or other nanoparticles of dimensions less than 50 nm =
are candidates.=20

Also, consider the implications of "Dry Ice Blasting." Dry ice blasting =
is similar to sand blasting, but solid carbon dioxide (CO2) is =
accelerated in a pressurized air stream to impact a surface. One unique =
aspect of using dry ice particles is that the particles sublimate =
(vaporize) upon impact with the surface. The gas expands to *eight =
hundred times the volume of the solid* in a few milliseconds in what is =
effectively a "micro-explosion" at the point of impact. This is not =
evidence of OU or ZPE coherence.  It is mentioned only because it points =
towards a methodology for converting small amounts of heat into usable =
energy at even extremely low overall temperatures.

But to prove that this theory is anything more than just theoretical =
tinkering, we need to demonstrate with controlled experiments and =
independent replication that such a "triaxial tension" imparted to a =
nanostructure will induce OU heating  and that one way this can be =
efficiently accomplished is by the rapid freezing and vacuum stressing, =
resulting in rapid sublimation of a transducer medium .

Possible transducers for the effect may exist in water alone and in a =
number of water-based fuels, such as an aqueous fullerene solution - =
that is, C-60 dissolved in H2O - a colloidal structure formed by water =
surface tension around a C-60 molecule resulting in an approximate =
formula C60(H2O)80, a structure that is explained and pictured here =
(with some details on its manufacture):
http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/buckmin.html

More appealing, however, would be the ability to inject chilled water =
without any additive into a mist of the exact needed nano-dimensions, =
and this is within the realm of possibility using precision mechanical =
components. But that prospect is far into the future.

A simple non-precision experiment is currently being run by an =
associate, using only a polycarbonate vacuum chamber with feedthroughs =
for pressure gauge and thermocouple and an elastomer valve. More =
sophisticated work with data-logging and a mechanical fuel injector is =
in the planning stage. A modest vacuum is all that is necessary - =
accomplished even by using a manual pump. A few cubic centimeters of a =
candidate fuel is prepared and placed in a glue-type syringe. Since =
anomalous effects occur when using water alone (for reasons that will be =
guessed at below) water cannot be used as a control but one can use =
other liquids such as alcohol for a control. The syringe is chilled to =
around 35 degrees F. and injected into the vacuum.=20

Significant heating and pressure effects have been observed even with =
water but more so with water-based colloids. Lack of consistency between =
shots, probably caused by too slow an injection rate and clogging is a =
problem. Further details will be published if and when some degree of =
repeatability is achieved and an optimum fuel is identified, but it is =
hoped that the basic outline of this work will encourage interested =
experimenters to approach the theory creatively from different angles =
and viewpoints.

BTW an induction coil placed next to the chamber will detect an EM pulse =
from the shot, but unfortunately, a decent soft x-ray signal has not yet =
been identified.

Excuse the long-winded discourse, but as you can see, it is pretty far =
out there on the fringe...and all very new  - so experimental validation =
is needed as a number of alternative and/or complementary dynamics may =
be going on simultaneously.=20

Such as the following:

Ortho-hydrogen and Para-hydrogen and Spin Isomerism in H2O Ice =
Sublimation

Many molecules coexist as nuclear spin isomers. Hydrogen molecules =
consist of two hydrogen atoms connected by a covalent bond, each =
hydrogen atom containing one proton. Each proton has a field associated =
with it, caused by its spin.  The protons can be thought of as spinning =
in either the same or opposite directions. H2 molecules that spin in the =
same direction are called orthohydrogen and when the spin is opposite, =
we have parahydrogen. Until recently, hydrogen has been the only =
molecule whose spin modifications were  extensively studied and whose =
property variations were being implemented for practical use. The uses =
were once limited mostly to laboratory experiments but now a number of =
patents for electrochemical power sources are claiming to benefit from =
spin conversion.

Like hydrogen, a water molecule also has two alternative spin =
orientations, based on its paired hydrogen atoms and their nuclear spins =
(oxygen having 0 spin).  The equilibrium ratio of the ortho to para =
densities (O-P ratio) at ambient temperature is about 3:1 for water and =
also for H2. The O-P ratio can be measured from the far-infrared =
spectra.=20

Orthohydrogen is unstable at low temperatures, and changes to the more =
stable parahydrogen over time, liberating heat.  At room temperature and =
above, ordinary hydrogen is 75 percent orthohydrogen and 25 percent =
parahydrogen. At 77.4 K (temperature of liquid nitrogen used for =
cooling) the hydrogen mixture at equilibrium is 52 percent orthohydrogen =
and 48 percent parahydrogen. At the boiling point of liquid hydrogen, =
20.3 K, the equilibrium composition is 99.8 percent parahydrogen.  When =
gaseous hydrogen is liquefied, it will slowly and spontaneously seek =
equilibrium, with orthohydrogen changing to parahydrogen. At 20.3 K, the =
conversion releases more heat (532 joules per gram) than is required to =
vaporize the liquid (453 joules per gram), so that liquefied normal =
hydrogen evaporates completely on conversion to parahydrogen-even in a =
perfectly insulated container.

Since orthohydrogen molecules make up 75% of "normal" hydrogen at room
temperature, it will considerably complicate the job of storing liquid
hydrogen, but unfortunately these observations offer little conceivable =
way to=20
produce energy based on spin conversion in hydrogen because - just =
getting to the lower ground spin state (with hydrogen) is too energy =
intensive (at least it is on earth but maybe not on Jupiter's moon =
Europa ; -}

But the situation for spin energy conversion may be different for water =
isomers, and in fact "nature" (or the creator, depending one's =
metaphysics) may have already endowed some species with the ability to =
use this technique. Para-water can be preferentially adsorbed by organic =
materials due to its non-rotation ground state  Ortho-para conversion =
catalysts based on organic chemicals are also possible. The O-P =
utilization procedure is quite straightforward and may occur in nature - =
in soil, atmosphere and living organisms at the extremes of =
habitability, but that is another story. The very small amount of energy =
available in spin isomer conversion may be multiplied by various factors =
unique to water, though this is yet to be proven.

Like ortho and para hydrogen, the water counterparts have different =
magnetic and physical properties. For example, the spin isomers are =
characterized by slightly different values of specific heat, boiling =
point, heat of vapor formation, and so forth. The possible absence of =
the magnetic moment in para water implies its insensitivity to a =
magnetic field, which could form the basis of an easy means for its =
separation into an enriched fuel medium, as well as an alternative =
method for direct electrical conversion, that is, if it can be coaxed =
into prompt conversion back to a predominantly ortho state with its =
magnetic moment (it is normally a slow process). This is one direction =
where real potential for a practical free energy device lies.

The water molecule is shaped like an isosceles triangle, with a bond =
angle of
104.5 degrees at the oxygen nucleus. The H-O-H bond angle is smaller =
than that predicted by its tetrahedral electronic geometry (which would =
be 109.5 degrees). The weak Coulombic characteristics of the bonding of =
hydrogen atoms to the weakly electronegative oxygen atom result in both =
ionized and covalent states that simultaneously maintain the integrity =
of water, along with the beta-aether. Water is the only molecule that =
possess all of these unusual physical characteristics.

So all of these known factors that make water unique - its spin =
isomerism, its
prestressed dipolar geometry, its expansion on freezing, and its =
differing
values of heat of vapor formation and magnetic susceptibility, when =
combined with lesser known factors such as the nanoscale beta-aether, =
casimir-like pressures, offer some hint at what might be behind any =
anomaly found in the rapid sublimation of ice.

But the rapid sublimation of ice is a complex phenomenon and you will =
find few if any references to it, or to spin isomer conversion in water, =
prior to the year 2000, so there are few experts to guide the way.

Regards,

Jones Beene




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<DIV>Greetings,</DIV>
<DIV><BR>In an upcoming issue of Infinite Energy, an&nbsp; English =
colleague,=20
Frank Grimer, will be explaining his theoretical ideas regarding =
"beta-aether",=20
i.e. what we yanks might call the ZPF, and his belief after years of =
work in=20
structural engineering that much of what we consider to be the inherent =
strength=20
of materials is in fact the result of what can best be described as =
"pressure"=20
which is *external* to the material . He has interesting =
proof.<BR><BR>As a=20
practical implementation of these ideas, it may be possible to extract =
so-called=20
"free energy" from this beta-aether in rather unique ways, though this =
prospect=20
is still little more than a wild&nbsp;idea propped up by a crude =
experiment. The=20
key factor to this method of coalescing ZPF nano-pressure into heat may =
be found=20
in the application of "triaxial tension" to a candidate material. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This required kind of balanced tension does not necessarily need to =
be=20
applied with external force, as is traditionally done, and in fact might =
be more=20
efficiently and elegantly applied with a vacuum!<BR><BR>This work and =
the theory=20
behind it is directly related to, and may even better explain,&nbsp;both =

sonofusion and cavitation. In both cases, I see little evidence of real =
D+D=20
fusion but lots of evidence for supra-chemical reactions, i.e.=20
reactions&nbsp;that go beyond valence electrons and may even employ =
k-shell=20
electron interactions (these are sometimes referred to as ballotechnic =
reactions=20
- and have unfortunately been cloaked in secrecy because of the military =

implications). K-shell interactions may be instigated when Casimir-type=20
pressures accelerate valence electrons, or some other virtual or real=20
particle,&nbsp;into the innermost orbitals of adjoining =
atoms.<BR><BR>After some=20
brainstorming, we have recently pinpointed one unusual way in which we =
might be=20
able to apply a balanced "triaxial tension" in such a way as to create=20
repeatable coherence of ZP field energy, or beta-aether =
pressure,&nbsp;in the=20
real world. Preliminary experiments have just gotten underway. Here is a =
draft=20
of the modus operandi:<BR><BR>Rapid Sublimation of Ice<BR><BR>Can the =
rapid=20
sublimation of water ice into steam be incorporated into the mechanics =
of a=20
source of free energy extraction in a device that attempts to cohere the =
energy=20
of the vacuum, the beta-aether or ZPE?<BR><BR>Perhaps it can, as there =
exists in=20
nature a robust source of untapped pressure at the nanoscale level, the =
Casimir=20
and the Van der Waals forces being other names for the =
phenomenon.<BR><BR>Under=20
certain circumstances, this nanoscale pressure may be adequate to =
accelerate the=20
heating of a solid such as water ice so that it sublimates very quickly =
with=20
cavitation effects. In the process, it might be possible to =
capture<BR>ZPE "free=20
energy" in the form of heat and convert that heating effect into =
mechanical=20
energy by means of a resultant high-ratio expansion of a solid into a =
gas to=20
drive a piston or turbine, or to capture an EM pulse from such a=20
micro-explosion.<BR><BR>Water Ice explosions (due to applied pressure) =
have been=20
reported in scientific literature accompanied by bursts of EM radiation=20
extending into the x-ray range of energies. Is this possible from normal =

fracturing dynamics, or is it evidence of a ZPE anomaly? Structural =
tension=20
testing of materials sometimes produces soft x-rays as well. BTW&nbsp; =
the most=20
apparent energy spectrum&nbsp;for radiation from these, as well as =
certain other=20
LENR and CF effects, is up into the "soft" x-ray energy range - that is, =
in the=20
10s of keV, exactly what one expects to find from k-shell interactions =
and Auger=20
cascades.<BR><BR>The precise mechanics of such a putative k-shell =
interaction=20
could be the result of Casimir-type pressures at nanometer dimensions =
acting on=20
valence electrons or else on some form of virtual particles in such a =
way as to=20
accelerate the particles&nbsp;into inner orbitals - following which an =
Auger=20
cascade creates further EM radiation that is eventually down-converted =
into=20
heat. The Pope Cavitation Kinetic Furnace, if it was ever OU at all, may =
have=20
unwittingly exploited this mechanism - but in a brute force, rather than =
an=20
elegant way.<BR><BR>Water is unique in that upon turning from a liquid =
to a=20
solid, it expands rather than contracts.&nbsp; The resultant solid may =
then be=20
immediately self-stressed into "triaxial tension" but probably not in a =
planar=20
form. In a 3-D sphere of optimum dimensions, the beta-aether ZPE =
pressure which=20
holds the ice crystal together and gives it compressive strength, is =
increased.=20
The effect might be intensified when ice is formed around a nanoscale =
vacuum=20
chamber - a buckeyball, or fullerene.&nbsp; In&nbsp;its hexagonal =
"snowflake"=20
configuration, ice&nbsp;is less likely to feel triaxial tension but many =
kinds=20
of stiff templates such as fullerenes or certain zeolites or other =
nanoparticles=20
of dimensions less than 50&nbsp;nm are candidates. </DIV>
<DIV><BR>Also, consider the implications of "Dry Ice Blasting." Dry ice =
blasting=20
is similar to sand blasting, but solid carbon dioxide (CO2) is =
accelerated in a=20
pressurized air stream to impact a surface. One unique aspect of using =
dry ice=20
particles is that the particles sublimate (vaporize) upon impact with =
the=20
surface. The gas expands to *eight hundred times the volume of the =
solid* in a=20
few milliseconds in what is effectively a "micro-explosion" at the point =
of=20
impact. This is not evidence of OU or ZPE coherence.&nbsp; It is =
mentioned only=20
because it points towards a methodology for converting small amounts of =
heat=20
into usable energy at even extremely low overall =
temperatures.<BR><BR>But to=20
prove that this theory is anything more than just theoretical tinkering, =
we need=20
to demonstrate with controlled experiments and independent replication =
that such=20
a "triaxial tension" imparted to a nanostructure will induce OU =
heating&nbsp;=20
and that one way this can be efficiently accomplished is by the rapid =
freezing=20
and vacuum stressing, resulting in rapid sublimation of a transducer =
medium=20
.<BR><BR>Possible transducers for the effect may exist in water alone =
and in a=20
number of water-based fuels, such as an aqueous fullerene solution - =
that is,=20
C-60 dissolved in H2O - a colloidal structure formed by water surface =
tension=20
around a C-60 molecule resulting in an approximate formula C60(H2O)80, a =

structure that is explained and pictured here (with some details on its=20
manufacture):<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.sbu.ac.uk/water/buckmin.html">http://www.sbu.ac.uk/wat=
er/buckmin.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>More appealing, however,&nbsp;would be the ability to inject =
chilled water=20
without any additive into a mist of the exact needed nano-dimensions, =
and this=20
is within the realm of possibility using precision mechanical =
components. But=20
that prospect is far into the future.<BR><BR>A simple non-precision =
experiment=20
is currently being run by an associate, using only a polycarbonate =
vacuum=20
chamber with feedthroughs for pressure gauge and thermocouple and an =
elastomer=20
valve. More sophisticated work with data-logging and a mechanical fuel =
injector=20
is in the planning stage. A modest vacuum is all that is necessary -=20
accomplished even by using a manual pump. A few cubic centimeters of a =
candidate=20
fuel is prepared and placed in a glue-type syringe. Since anomalous =
effects=20
occur when using water alone (for reasons that will be guessed at below) =
water=20
cannot be used as a control but one can use other liquids such as =
alcohol for a=20
control. The syringe is chilled to around 35 degrees F.&nbsp;and =
injected into=20
the vacuum. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Significant heating and pressure effects have been observed even =
with water=20
but more so with water-based colloids. Lack of consistency between =
shots,=20
probably caused by too slow an injection rate and clogging is a problem. =
Further=20
details will be published if and when some degree of repeatability is =
achieved=20
and an optimum fuel is identified, but it is hoped that the basic =
outline of=20
this work will encourage interested experimenters&nbsp;to =
approach&nbsp;the=20
theory&nbsp;creatively from different angles and viewpoints.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>BTW an induction coil placed next to the chamber will detect an EM =
pulse=20
from the shot, but unfortunately, a decent soft x-ray signal has not yet =
been=20
identified.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Excuse the long-winded discourse, but as you can see, it is =
pretty far=20
out there on the fringe...and all very new&nbsp; - so experimental =
validation is=20
needed as a number of alternative and/or complementary dynamics may be =
going on=20
simultaneously. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Such as the following:<BR><BR>Ortho-hydrogen and =
Para-hydrogen&nbsp;and=20
Spin Isomerism in H2O Ice Sublimation<BR><BR>Many molecules coexist as =
nuclear=20
spin isomers. Hydrogen molecules consist of two hydrogen atoms connected =
by a=20
covalent bond, each hydrogen atom containing one proton. Each proton has =
a field=20
associated with it, caused by its spin.&nbsp; The protons can be thought =
of as=20
spinning in either the same or opposite directions. H2 molecules that =
spin in=20
the same direction are called orthohydrogen and when the spin is =
opposite, we=20
have parahydrogen. Until recently, hydrogen has been the only molecule =
whose=20
spin modifications were&nbsp; extensively studied and whose property =
variations=20
were being implemented for practical use. The uses were once limited =
mostly to=20
laboratory experiments but now a number of patents for electrochemical =
power=20
sources are claiming to benefit from spin conversion.<BR><BR>Like =
hydrogen, a=20
water molecule also has two alternative spin orientations, based on its =
paired=20
hydrogen atoms and their nuclear spins (oxygen having 0 spin).&nbsp; The =

equilibrium ratio of the ortho to para densities (O-P ratio) at ambient=20
temperature is about 3:1 for water and also for H2. The O-P ratio can be =

measured from the far-infrared spectra. </DIV>
<DIV><BR>Orthohydrogen is unstable at low temperatures, and changes to =
the more=20
stable parahydrogen over time, liberating heat.&nbsp; At room =
temperature and=20
above, ordinary hydrogen is 75 percent orthohydrogen and 25 percent=20
parahydrogen. At 77.4 K (temperature of liquid nitrogen used for =
cooling) the=20
hydrogen mixture at equilibrium is 52 percent orthohydrogen and 48 =
percent=20
parahydrogen. At the boiling point of liquid hydrogen, 20.3 K, the =
equilibrium=20
composition is 99.8 percent parahydrogen.&nbsp; When gaseous hydrogen is =

liquefied, it will slowly and spontaneously seek equilibrium, with =
orthohydrogen=20
changing to parahydrogen. At 20.3 K, the conversion releases more heat =
(532=20
joules per gram) than is required to vaporize the liquid (453 joules per =
gram),=20
so that liquefied normal hydrogen evaporates completely on conversion to =

parahydrogen-even in a perfectly insulated container.<BR><BR>Since =
orthohydrogen=20
molecules make up 75% of "normal" hydrogen at room<BR>temperature, it =
will=20
considerably complicate the job of storing liquid<BR>hydrogen, but =
unfortunately=20
these observations&nbsp;offer little conceivable way to <BR>produce =
energy based=20
on spin conversion in hydrogen because - just getting to the lower =
ground spin=20
state (with hydrogen) is too energy intensive (at least it is on earth =
but maybe=20
not on Jupiter's moon Europa ; -}<BR><BR>But the situation for spin =
energy=20
conversion may be different for water isomers, and in fact "nature" (or =
the=20
creator, depending one's metaphysics) may have already endowed some =
species with=20
the ability to use this technique. Para-water can be preferentially =
adsorbed by=20
organic materials due to its non-rotation ground state&nbsp; Ortho-para=20
conversion catalysts based on organic chemicals are also possible. The =
O-P=20
utilization procedure is quite straightforward and may occur in nature - =
in=20
soil, atmosphere and living organisms at the extremes of habitability, =
but that=20
is another story. The very small amount of energy available in spin =
isomer=20
conversion may be multiplied by various factors unique to water, though =
this is=20
yet to be proven.<BR><BR>Like ortho and para hydrogen, the water =
counterparts=20
have different magnetic and physical properties. For example, the spin =
isomers=20
are characterized by slightly different values of specific heat, boiling =
point,=20
heat of vapor formation, and so forth. The possible absence of the =
magnetic=20
moment in para water implies its insensitivity to a magnetic field, =
which could=20
form the basis of an easy means&nbsp;for its&nbsp;separation into an =
enriched=20
fuel medium, as well as an alternative method for direct electrical =
conversion,=20
that is, if it can be coaxed into prompt conversion back to a =
predominantly=20
ortho state with&nbsp;its magnetic moment (it is normally a slow =
process). This=20
is one direction where real potential for a practical free energy device =

lies.<BR><BR>The water molecule is shaped like an isosceles triangle, =
with a=20
bond angle of<BR>104.5 degrees at the oxygen nucleus. The H-O-H bond =
angle is=20
smaller than that predicted by its tetrahedral electronic geometry =
(which would=20
be 109.5 degrees). The weak Coulombic characteristics of the bonding of =
hydrogen=20
atoms to the weakly electronegative oxygen atom result in both ionized =
and=20
covalent states that simultaneously maintain the integrity of water, =
along with=20
the beta-aether. Water is the only molecule that possess all of these =
unusual=20
physical characteristics.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>So all of these known factors that make water unique - its spin =

isomerism, its<BR>prestressed dipolar geometry, its expansion on =
freezing, and=20
its differing<BR>values of heat of vapor formation and magnetic =
susceptibility,=20
when combined with lesser known factors such as the nanoscale =
beta-aether,=20
casimir-like pressures, offer some hint at what might be behind any =
anomaly=20
found in the rapid sublimation of ice.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>But the rapid sublimation of ice is a complex phenomenon and you =
will find=20
few if any references to it, or to spin isomer conversion&nbsp;in=20
water,&nbsp;prior to the year 2000, so there are few experts to guide =
the=20
way.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones Beene<BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_008E_01C2819E.5FF1E760--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  1 18:32:53 2002
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:37:03 -0500
From: "What's New" <opa aps.org>
Reply-To: opa aps.org
To: "What's New" <whatsnew lists.apsmsgs.org>

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 01 Nov 02   Washington, DC

1. IBM TIME BOMB: ADVERTISING GIMMICK OR QUARK-GLUON PLASMA CHIP? 
Of course, I saw at once that the full-page ad for a time machine
in Tuesday's New York Times was a spoof.  But I looked up at the
TV and there was Fritz Mondale, running for the US Senate from
Minnesota.  Whoa!  Is this possible?  My only time machine is the
WN archives, so I typed in "teleportation" and was  taken back to
1996.  An ad in Scientific American said: "IBM scientists have
discovered a way to make an object disintegrate in one place and
reappear intact in another" (WN 26 Jan 96).  So how are people
supposed to distinguish what is real and what is just advertising
hype?  I looked for other big ads that are too preposterous to
believe.  I came up with "Vitamin O" (WN 27 Nov 98), perpetual
motion (WN 5 Nov 99), and Yogic flying (WN 28 Sep 01).  These are
at least as preposterous as time machines, but they weren't mere
gimmicks.  They were intended to defraud a gullible public.

2. HERBAL HYPE: CBS NEWS DOES AN ACCURATE TAKE ON SUPPLEMENTS. 
Sales of herbal medications have soared since passage of the 1994
Dietary Supplement and Health Education Act, which allows natural
supplements to be marketed without proof of safety, efficacy or
purity.  The media, riding the wave of popularity of alternative
treatments, seemed to reinforce the supplement-lobby hype.  But
since the NIH Center of Complementary and Alternative Medicine
began rigorous testing of supplements, the media has discovered
what the responsible medical community has been saying all along:
this stuff is untested, impure and often harmful (WN 23 Aug 02}. 
The shift was evident on Monday's CBS Evening News with Dan
Rather, which spent almost 4 minutes on the dangers of
supplements. That's a long time by network news standards.
                                                  
3. SCUD DEFENSE: BUILD THEM NOW; MAYBE WE CAN TEST THEM LATER. 
During the Gulf war, the military failed to destroy a single
mobile Scud missile.  Concerns about the vulnerability of U.S.
troops to Iraqi Scud missiles in a new conflict led Congress to
approve funding for increased production of the advanced Patriot
missile, known as the PAC-3.  Moreover, the Pentagon would like
to shift money from other missile programs to further accelerate
production.  The only problem is that the PAC-3s don't seem to
work either, having fared badly in tests between February and May
(WN 17 May 02).  There are proposed fixes, but they haven't been
tested at all.  Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld nonetheless is
leaning toward increasing PAC-3 production, in the hope that the
planned fixes will work if we ever get around to testing them. 
If we don't get around to testing, what's the problem?

4. ELECTION PREDICTION: PHYSICS WILL HOLD ITS MARGIN IN CONGRESS.






THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY.  
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or 
the American Physical Society, but they should be.
---
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov  2 15:48:44 2002
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Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 01:45:26 +0200
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Hello,

(It would be better if somebody fw it free energy forum)

There are sometimes excess energy claims, and experimenters failed to measure directly the energy transfers. Sometimes it is true that there is no energy output which can be directed to a measurement system but sometime there is. I think there is no excuse for not using some basic power measurement equipment. They are cheap at second hand. For example an HP 3400A true RMS voltmeter is selling for $100 or less. See http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1782171652


In this circumstance, I think most of excess energy claims where no proper measurement equipment is utilized can be safely discarded.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov  3 05:46:07 2002
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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 08:43:34 EST
Subject: The Photon Belt & Photonic Energy Shielding Technologies Research & Development!
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The Photon Belt & Photonic Energy Shielding Technologies Research & 
Development!

Since the photon belt may increase by 2012, to such a high energy degree, 
that conventional electrical and computer technologies may not work well, we 
need to develop shielding technologies to be placed around critical 
electrical and computer technologies and in residences. 

I am working on  special types of wall plasters, cement, paint, and paper, 
which interconnects to form a complete electrical circuit, which has some 
metal foil and magnetic film on the back of it, and electrical wires, to make 
a faraday cage and energy holographic force field, which may be used to 
create privacy in the home and potentially block out or out filter harmful 
emfs, energy waves and even photons.

It may be possible to mix, small monopole quartz crystals with antiproton 
subatomic bonded particles, as the Russians have developed,  magnetic ceramic 
particles, and liquid metallic conductive particles into a  plaster, cement, 
or spray paint, to be used to cover all of the walls of the interior of a 
house, to create a magnetic, electrical faraday cage force field shields 
around a room or house to filter out harmful sound, radio waves, and cosmic 
photon energies. The walls would then have to be insulated on both sides with 
a plastic paint or plastic linoleum or foam and wires would have to be 
connected to the conductive paint or cement, and hooked up to a computer to 
monitor and project the proper alternative energies and frequencies into the 
walls to shield and filter out harmful radiation's.  The typical energy 
frequencies, that may be used to block out harmful frequencies are the 
reverse image of the harmful frequency and holographic energy pattern.   Also 
several small holographic antennas may be placed in a room and hooked up to a 
computer and image projector, to project and create healthy holographic 
energies in a room, that match the healthy holographic energies patterns of 
the energies in cells, natural environmental healthy energies, and happy 
youthful energies and feelings of the human body.  I will do some research on 
projector, image to wave, and holographic technologies to understand how to 
do this.


Respectfully,

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark
tom rhfweb.com
<A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">The Photon Belt &amp; Photonic Energy Shielding Technologies Research &amp; Development!<BR>
<BR>
Since the photon belt may increase by 2012, to such a high energy degree, that conventional electrical and computer technologies may not work well, we need to develop shielding technologies to be placed around critical electrical and computer technologies and in residences. <BR>
<BR>
I am working on&nbsp; special types of wall plasters, cement, paint, and paper, which interconnects to form a complete electrical circuit, which has some metal foil and magnetic film on the back of it, and electrical wires, to make a faraday cage and energy holographic force field, which may be used to create privacy in the home and potentially block out or out filter harmful emfs, energy waves and even photons.<BR>
<BR>
It may be possible to mix, small monopole quartz crystals with antiproton subatomic bonded particles, as the Russians have developed,&nbsp; magnetic ceramic particles, and liquid metallic conductive particles into a&nbsp; plaster, cement, or spray paint, to be used to cover all of the walls of the interior of a house, to create a magnetic, electrical faraday cage force field shields around a room or house to filter out harmful sound, radio waves, and cosmic photon energies. The walls would then have to be insulated on both sides with a plastic paint or plastic linoleum or foam and wires would have to be connected to the conductive paint or cement, and hooked up to a computer to monitor and project the proper alternative energies and frequencies into the walls to shield and filter out harmful radiation's.&nbsp; The typical energy frequencies, that may be used to block out harmful frequencies are the reverse image of the harmful frequency and holographic energy pattern.&nbsp;&nbsp; Also several small holographic antennas may be placed in a room and hooked up to a computer and image projector, to project and create healthy holographic energies in a room, that match the healthy holographic energies patterns of the energies in cells, natural environmental healthy energies, and happy youthful energies and feelings of the human body.&nbsp; I will do some research on projector, image to wave, and holographic technologies to understand how to do this.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Respectfully,<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A><BR>
Thomas D. Clark<BR>
tom rhfweb.com<BR>
<A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_18f.109b0388.2af68206_boundary--

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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <75.152ae73.2af6a362 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 11:05:54 EST
Subject: Research & Development of non-polarised emf and non-emf energy technologies 
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[<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/rae.html">Renewable Alternative Energies=20=
=A9 </A>] at http://www.rhfweb.com/rae.html

Research & Development of non-polarised emf and non-emf energy technologies=20

    Non-Polarised Non-EMF Fiber optic & light pulse, gravitonic, photonic,=20
sound, &=20
        cold positive nonpolarized magnetic Telsa energy power, chips,=20
        computer, battery, communication and device technologies, to
        replace EMF Polarised technologies.

      Consider light, photonic, and  sound polarization & monopole=20
technologies,   such as antiproton monopole chemistry for crystals,=20
batteries, communication,   and device technologies.
    =20
I will be doing research on the above technologies, and I may hire=20
consultants to brief me on the state of the art of such technologies, to=20
consider funding these technologies at universities and with the above=20
company to produces such products which may be needed around 2012, due to th=
e=20
photon belt.

Respectfully,

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
[<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/rae.html">Renewable Alternative Energies=20=
=A9 </A>]
Thomas D. Clark
tom rhfweb.com
<A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>





--part1_75.152ae73.2af6a362_boundary
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=
=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR>
[<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/rae.html">Renewable Alternative Energies=20=
=A9 </A>] at http://www.rhfweb.com/rae.html<BR>
<BR>
Research &amp; Development of non-polarised emf and non-emf energy technolog=
ies <BR>
<BR>
    Non-Polarised Non-EMF Fiber optic &amp; light pulse, gravitonic, photoni=
c, sound, &amp; <BR>
        cold positive nonpolarized magnetic Telsa energy power, chips, <BR>
        computer, battery, communication and device technologies, to<BR>
        replace EMF Polarised technologies.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Consider light, photonic, and&nbsp; sound pol=
arization &amp; monopole technologies,&nbsp;  such as antiproton monopole ch=
emistry for crystals, batteries, communication,&nbsp;  and device technologi=
es.<BR>
     <BR>
I will be doing research on the above technologies, and I may hire consultan=
ts to brief me on the state of the art of such technologies, to consider fun=
ding these technologies at universities and with the above company to produc=
es such products which may be needed around 2012, due to the photon belt.<BR=
>
<BR>
Respectfully,<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>=
<BR>
[<A HREF=3D"http://www.rhfweb.com/rae.html">Renewable Alternative Energies=20=
=A9 </A>]<BR>
Thomas D. Clark<BR>
tom rhfweb.com<BR>
<A HREF=3D"www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_75.152ae73.2af6a362_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov  3 09:09:35 2002
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From: "Nicholas Reiter" <nreiter woh.rr.com>
To: "vortex-L" <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Subject: Some updates on radioactive fungi, etc.
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 12:08:20 -0500
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Greetings all,

Just a short note to let you that a couple of new items were posted by my
son recently on Dr. Sam Faile's web page.  Topic is the on-going
experimentation with uranium and thorium doped fungal cultures, still trying
to pin down the rising and falling of count rates.  I have several tubs
going right now, although from time to time the locals that must share my
office area bring out the pitch forks and torches, and I have to kill things
off with ye old bottle o' bleach.

http://www.geocities.com/spfaile/fungipics.html

In a few days (hopefully) I will announce a new paper up on the Avalon site
re: the latest on minor transient weight alterations in quartz crystals
accelerated along the optical axis.

A couple of weeks ago, some of you were following my quandry with the
magnetic di-pole responsiveness of the quartz optical axis.  After much
stewing and staring and replicating, I concluded that I was seeing some weak
electrostatic attraction to my hand / magnets due to charges left on the
crystal surface.  So that one goes away for now.  Thanks to all who shared
ideas, though.  That is how this works.

Best,

NR



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Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 07:25:48 +0200
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http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0211001

Hi,

Please somebody Fw it to corresponding forums.

hamdi ucar


From: Thomas B. Bahder <bahder arl.army.mil>
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:15:53 GMT   (680kb)

Force on an Asymmetric Capacitor

Authors: Thomas B. Bahder, Chris Fazi
Comments: 25 pages
Subj-class: History of Physics; General Physics

 When a high voltage (~30 kV) is applied to a capacitor whose
 electrodes have different physical dimensions, the capacitor
 experiences a net force toward the smaller electrode (Biefeld-Brown
 effect). We have verified this effect by building four capacitors of
 different shapes. The effect may have applications to vehicle
 propulsion and dielectric pumps. We review the history of this effect
 briefly through the history of patents by Thomas Townsend Brown. At
 present, the physical basis for the Biefeld-Brown effect is not
 understood. The order of magnitude of the net force on the
 asymmetric capacitor is estimated assuming two different
 mechanisms of charge conduction between its electrodes: ballistic
 ionic wind and ionic drift. The calculations indicate that ionic wind is at
 least three orders of magnitude too small to explain the magnitude of
 the observed force on the capacitor. The ionic drift transport
 assumption leads to the correct order of magnitude for the force,
 however, it is difficult to see how ionic drift enters into the theory.
 Finally, we present a detailed thermodynamic treatment of the net
 force on an asymmetric capacitor. In the future, to understand this
 effect, a detailed theoretical model must be constructed that takes
 into account plasma effects: ionization of gas (or air) in the high
 electric field region, charge transport, and resulting dynamic forces
 on the electrodes. The next series of experiments should determine
 whether the effect occurs in vacuum, and a careful study should be
 carried out to determine the dependence of the observed force on
 gas pressure, gas species and applied voltage.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov  3 23:05:28 2002
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Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 21:02:45 -1000
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Subject: Re: Some updates on radioactive fungi, etc.
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>From the text under picture 3 from the link given below:

>> However following the formation of the crenulated mat, a decomposition began to occur with a foul smelling slime overtaking the fungus.

Foul smelling slime probably = bacteria.

There's been a lot interest lately in the amazing microbes discovered in the last few years which live in tough environments and eat metals, poisonous chemicals and so forth. Then there's the hints of biological transmutations mentioned from time to time here and elsewhere. (Any regular Vortexian can see where I'm going here...) More conventionally, people are testing the new bugs against diseases, and have had some hits. But finding a bug that likes eating radioactive material and in the process remediates it would be pretty cool, and not likely to be something 'conventional' researchers would think to look for. There *are* germs deep in the earth that seem to enjoy the heat and radioactivity down there. I haven't read that any are known to use the radioactive materials directly as a food/energy source, but you never know - this subject is on the edge. I wouldn't think it's too wild of a notion to consider.

Glad to hear about your experiments, and even more glad I don't share an office with you! <G>

- Rick Monteverde,
Honolulu Hawaii

>Greetings all,
>
>Just a short note to let you that a couple of new items were posted by my
>son recently on Dr. Sam Faile's web page.  Topic is the on-going
>experimentation with uranium and thorium doped fungal cultures, still trying
>to pin down the rising and falling of count rates.  I have several tubs
>going right now, although from time to time the locals that must share my
>office area bring out the pitch forks and torches, and I have to kill things
>off with ye old bottle o' bleach.
>
>http://www.geocities.com/spfaile/fungipics.html
>
>In a few days (hopefully) I will announce a new paper up on the Avalon site
>re: the latest on minor transient weight alterations in quartz crystals
>accelerated along the optical axis.
>
>A couple of weeks ago, some of you were following my quandry with the
>magnetic di-pole responsiveness of the quartz optical axis.  After much
>stewing and staring and replicating, I concluded that I was seeing some weak
>electrostatic attraction to my hand / magnets due to charges left on the
>crystal surface.  So that one goes away for now.  Thanks to all who shared
>ideas, though.  That is how this works.
>
>Best,
>
>NR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov  4 11:22:47 2002
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Nice photos of equipment:

http://www.frascati.enea.it/nhe/

I guess "nhe" stands for New Hydrogen Energy.

- Jed


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<A HREF="http://www.neuronet.pitt.edu/~meno/physics/physics.html">http://www.neuronet.pitt.edu/~meno/physics/physics.html</A>
<A HREF="http://www.aetherpress.com/physics.htm">http://www.aetherpress.com/physics.htm</A>

The pursuit of truth is open to everyone, so, how many generations of those 
"children" will ignore it? I am hoping that some of them will change their 
mind, and do something useful instead.However, there is no indication for an 
improvement of the situation, as lately someone at Cornell set up a web-site, 
where anyone who does not agree with them is listed as a crank. This just 
confirms that they are incapable of comprehending real physics, as everybody 
knowledgeable in fluid mechanics can check my equations and concepts for 
validity. Thus, it is becoming quite clear who the real cranks are. 
Therefore, by providing further exposure to my theory, they are failing not 
only in physics, but even in their slander campaign. So, I thank them for the 
service. 

However, as is evident from the following excerpt of his talk at the Leiden 
University in 1920, Einstein had by then completely reversed his position on 
the ether. "... Recapitulating, we may say that according to the general 
theory of relativity space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, 
therefore, there exists an ether. Acccording to the general theory of 
relativity space without ether is unthinkable; for in such space there not 
only would be no propagation of light, but also no possibility of existence 
for standards of space and time (measuring-rods and clocks), nor therefore 
any space-time intervals in the physical sense. ..."Furthermore, the 
existence of the 2.7 K cosmic radiation, discovered in 1965 by A.A. Penzias 
and R.W. Wilson, clearly points to an absolute inertial frame of 
reference.Thus, while Einstein himself already acknowledged the blunder in 
1920 by saying: "...space without ether is unthinkable...", 80 years later, 
the students are paying tuition to be told that ether does not exist. Who, 
then, are the cranks that should be listed? 



Newton's view on the future of physics.

In his book on optics, Newton, the honest and frank genius from the farm, 
also expresses his views regarding the direction in which physics should 
proceed.To tell us that every Species of Things is endow'd with an occult 
specifick Quality by which it acts and produces manifest Effects, is to tell 
us nothing: But to derive two or three general Principles of Motion from 
Phenomena, and afterwards to tell us how the Properties and Actions of all 
corporeal Things follow from those manifest Principles, would be a very great 
step in Philosophy, though the Causes of those Principles were not yet 
discover'd: And therefore I scruple not to propose the Principles of Motion 
above-mention'd, they being of very general Extent, and leave their Causes to 
be found out.This appears to me like a very sensible advice. Furthermore, 
Ockham told us that the simplest adequate explanation of a phenomenon is most 
likely to be correct. The ancient thinkers in Greece, and the Orient, also 
gave us some good hints.We now also know that energy and momentum are 
conserved in all natural phenomena, so, it is sensible to ask what energy 
might be.Thus, considering all the extant ancient wisdom, and current 
experimental knowledge, I am attempting to account for the observed natural 
phenomena by means of the simplest possible model. So far I have succeeded to 
explain the photon quantitatively, and all the rest of the known physical 
phenomena qualitatively, without invoking any "occult" principles.The energy, 
in all manifested forms, I attribute to the motion of very minute, actual 
fundamental particles, that I call GYRONS. These gyrons, in perpetual motion, 
comprise a fluid, called the AETHER. The average speed of the gyrons in the 
space that is called the VACUUM, corresponds to the speed of light. In the 
vacuum, the gyrons move in a random fashion, and therefore, no specific 
physical properties are observed in it.However, when the gyrons move in 
certain organized patterns, then we observe the manifestation of what we call 
MATTER and WAVES. It turns out that, in order to generate all the observed 
phenomena, the gyrons cannot be tightly packed in space, and therefore, the 
aether fluid is technically a gas.Next, the question arises: what must be the 
form and size of the gyrons to impart all the necessary properties to the 
aether?Considering the relationships between the form of the particles 
comprising a fluid, and the observed properties of the fluid, as expressed by 
fluid dynamics equations, I opted for the following form of the gyron:The 
arrows indicate the motion of the gyron, its translational and rotational 
velocities. These velocities remain constant as long as the gyron does not 
collide with another gyron. At the instant of collision, the velocities of 
both particles change, depending on their speed, as well as their mutual 
orientations and locations of the point of impact on the two colliding 
gyrons. Formally we say that the linear and angular momenta remain conserved 
in the collision. One must assume this, otherwise, the universe would 
eventually grind itself to a halt.How far the gyrons move, before colliding, 
depends on their size, their mutual orientation, their velocities (both, 
translational, and angular), as well as on their number in a given volume of 
the void (their numeric volume density). In the following sketch is depicted 
the travel path of a gyron, showing how it sweeps out a volume segment 
between collisions.In a short time dt, the gyron sweeps out a segment of the 
volume dV, expressed by the following vector formula.It turns out that this 
expression is related to what we call the charge, as well as the mass of a 
material particle, such as an electron. To derive the complete properties of 
the anisotropic aether gas from the motion of individual gyrons, is an 
extremely difficult mathematical problem that I was not able to solve yet. 
Here is a great challenge for a gifted mathematician. The connection between 
the motion of individual gyrons, and the description of the fluid properties 
in terms of fields, is termed kinetics. The picture below shows a few gyrons, 
comprising the aether, as they move through the void space.The variations in 
size are intended to indicate a perspective view; but the actual gyrons are 
assumed to be all identical in size and form. They must also be much slimmer 
in shape than indicated in this picture.Clearly, a legitimate question is: 
what is the nature of the material that these things are made out of? And, 
here again, the best I can do is to quote Newton.All these things being 
consider'd, it seems probable to me, that God in the Beginning form'd Matter 
in solid, massy, hard, impenetrable, moveable Particles, of such Sizes and 
Figures, and with such other Properties, and such Proportion to Space, as 
most conduced to the End for which he form'd them; and that these primitive 
Particles being Solids, are incomparably harder than any porous Bodies 
compounded of them; even so very hard, as never to wear or break in pieces; 
no ordinary Power being able to divide what God himself made one in the first 
Creation.Ultimately, to account for our existence, some material substance 
must be postulated. To what agent one attributes this deed is a personal 
choice that goes beyond the realm of physics. In any case, the purpose of 
physics is to describe the mechanism of our universe in all its details in 
the simplest possible way; then, according to Ockham, we may assume that our 
description is correct.On the scale of the gyron, physics is beyond 
experimentation, all must be deduced from a hypothesis. According to my 
model, there are no continuous physical fields in nature. The gyron 
collisions are instantaneous events, described by the Dirac delta functions. 
This is mathematically and physically legitimate. A gyron collision can be 
considered as the limit of an elastic collision, in the manner shown in the 
following phase diagram, depicting a central collision. For the 
mathematically oriented readers, this means that at this level of 
description, physics is purely Newtonian with an Euclidean space, and 
Galilean invariance.The aether must be an anisotropic fluid because, 
otherwise, it could not manifest all the necessary physical properties to 
account for the observed physical reality. Failure to realize this was 
probably the major reason why the aether theories, expounded during the 
previous centuries, could not succeed. Clearly, since the gyrons, being the 
matter from which everything else is made, cannot be confined in anything, no 
direct experimentation is possible to determine their essence and behavior. 
Therefore, all knowledge about them must be computed mathematically (inferred 
backwards) from the behavior of the aether.Due to the enormous number of 
gyrons involved, possibly on the order of 10^90 in each cubic centimeter of 
space, dealing with individual gyrons, is out of question. Consequently, one 
must resort to statistical methods, that in turn lead to the velocity-, and 
other, field representations of the aether. However, it must also be 
understood that, mathematically, as is well appreciated in ordinary fluid 
mechanics, this is only an approximation. A specific field variable 
represents the mean value in its neighborhood, with a statistical 
uncertainty. In the case of the aether fluid, this corresponds to the 
Heisenberg uncertainty (+/-)[h/4Pi]. Thus, the price we pay for manageability 
of the problem, is uncertainty.The undisturbed aether, that we call vacuum, 
is unobservable. Only such dynamic disturbances as waves and vortices become 
observable. What we perceive as the physical reality is the dynamics of these 
vortices and waves in the aether. Specifically, the material particles, such 
as electrons, correspond to the aether vortices, while electromagnetic 
radiation, and deBroglie, or matter, waves, correspond to the two possible 
types of aether waves.The following graph depicts a feasible model for the 
electron. The flow pattern of gyrons in this particular vortex, represented 
by the stream lines, can generate all the necessary force fields associated 
with the electron. The two charge polarities are produced by the right-, and 
left-handed vortices, while gravity is due to gyron drift towards these 
dynamic structures.Consequently, if electrons are vortices, then electron 
physics can neither be represented by particle mechanics, nor by wave 
mechanics; instead, vortex mechanics becomes applicable, and, so far, this 
has not been pursued. Thus, it is due to the complexity of this problem that 
such empirical theories as quantum wave mechanics and relativity 
emerged.Since electrons, being vortices, do not behave like the actual 
fundamental particles (the gyrons), from which they are generated, the 
concept of non-Newtonian physics was introduced. The mechanics of individual 
gyrons, however, is Newtonian. It happens that the quantum mechanical 
probability density corresponds to the numerical gyron density, but this 
scalar field is not adequate to describe the aether fluid, the velocity 
vector field is also necessary. Quaternion vector fields may turn out to be a 
suitable representation for this type of vortex mechanics.Using these ideas, 
and employing dependable experimental data in conjunction with known fluid 
dynamics concepts, I was able to derive some promising results, both, 
qualitative, and quantitative. The details can be found in the following 
publications:Frank M. Meno, Phys. Essays 4, 94 (1991).Ibid. 7, 450 (1994).
Ibid. 8, 245 (1995).

Respectfully,

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark
tom rhfweb.com
<A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

















































































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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><A HREF="http://www.neuronet.pitt.edu/~meno/physics/physics.html">http://www.neuronet.pitt.edu/~meno/physics/physics.html</A><BR>
<A HREF="http://www.aetherpress.com/physics.htm">http://www.aetherpress.com/physics.htm</A><BR>
<BR>
The pursuit of truth is open to everyone, so, how many generations of those "children" will ignore it? I am hoping that some of them will change their mind, and do something useful instead.However, there is no indication for an improvement of the situation, as lately someone at Cornell set up a web-site, where anyone who does not agree with them is listed as a crank. This just confirms that they are incapable of comprehending real physics, as everybody knowledgeable in fluid mechanics can check my equations and concepts for validity. Thus, it is becoming quite clear who the real cranks are. Therefore, by providing further exposure to my theory, they are failing not only in physics, but even in their slander campaign. So, I thank them for the service. <BR>
<BR>
However, as is evident from the following excerpt of his talk at the Leiden University in 1920, Einstein had by then completely reversed his position on the ether. <I>"... Recapitulating, we may say that according to the general theory of relativity space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, therefore, there exists an ether. Acccording to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable; for in such space there not only would be no propagation of light, but also no possibility of existence for standards of space and time (measuring-rods and clocks), nor therefore any space-time intervals in the physical sense. ..."</I>Furthermore, the existence of the 2.7 K cosmic radiation, discovered in 1965 by A.A. Penzias and R.W. Wilson, clearly points to an absolute inertial frame of reference.Thus, while Einstein himself already acknowledged the blunder in 1920 by saying: "<I>...space without ether is unthinkable...", </I>80 years later, the students are paying tuition to be told that ether does not exist. Who, then, are the cranks that should be listed? <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=6 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
<BR>
<P ALIGN=CENTER></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><B>Newton's view on the future of physics.</B><BR>
<BR>
<P ALIGN=LEFT>In his book on optics, Newton, the honest and frank genius from the farm, also expresses his views regarding the direction in which physics should proceed.<I>To tell us that every Species of Things is endow'd with an occult specifick Quality by which it acts and produces manifest Effects, is to tell us nothing: But to derive two or three general Principles of Motion from Phenomena, and afterwards to tell us how the Properties and Actions of all corporeal Things follow from those manifest Principles, would be a very great step in Philosophy, though the Causes of those Principles were not yet discover'd: And therefore I scruple not to propose the Principles of Motion above-mention'd, they being of very general Extent, and leave their Causes to be found out.</I>This appears to me like a very sensible advice. Furthermore, Ockham told us that the simplest adequate explanation of a phenomenon is most likely to be correct. The ancient thinkers in Greece, and the Orient, also gave us some good hints.We now also know that energy and momentum are conserved in all natural phenomena, so, it is sensible to ask what energy might be.Thus, considering all the extant ancient wisdom, and current experimental knowledge, I am attempting to account for the observed natural phenomena by means of the simplest possible model. So far I have succeeded to explain the photon quantitatively, and all the rest of the known physical phenomena qualitatively, without invoking any "occult" principles.The energy, in all manifested forms, I attribute to the motion of very minute, actual fundamental particles, that I call GYRONS. These gyrons, in perpetual motion, comprise a fluid, called the AETHER. The average speed of the gyrons in the space that is called the VACUUM, corresponds to the speed of light. In the vacuum, the gyrons move in a random fashion, and therefore, no specific physical properties are observed in it.However, when the gyrons move in certain organized patterns, then we observe the manifestation of what we call MATTER and WAVES. It turns out that, in order to generate all the observed phenomena, the gyrons cannot be tightly packed in space, and therefore, the aether fluid is technically a gas.Next, the question arises: what must be the form and size of the gyrons to impart all the necessary properties to the aether?Considering the relationships between the form of the particles comprising a fluid, and the observed properties of the fluid, as expressed by fluid dynamics equations, I opted for the following form of the gyron:<IMG  SRC="http://www.neuronet.pitt.edu/~meno/physics/fig1.gif" WIDTH="535" HEIGHT="355" BORDER="0">The arrows indicate the motion of the gyron, its translational and rotational velocities. These velocities remain constant as long as the gyron does not collide with another gyron. At the instant of collision, the velocities of both particles change, depending on their speed, as well as their mutual orientations and locations of the point of impact on the two colliding gyrons. Formally we say that the linear and angular momenta remain conserved in the collision. One must assume this, otherwise, the universe would eventually grind itself to a halt.How far the gyrons move, before colliding, depends on their size, their mutual orientation, their velocities (both, translational, and angular), as well as on their number in a given volume of the void (their numeric volume density). In the following sketch is depicted the travel path of a gyron, showing how it sweeps out a volume segment between collisions.<IMG  SRC="http://www.neuronet.pitt.edu/~meno/physics/fig3.gif" WIDTH="483" HEIGHT="359" BORDER="0">In a short time dt, the gyron sweeps out a segment of the volume dV, expressed by the following vector formula.<IMG  SRC="http://www.neuronet.pitt.edu/~meno/physics/equations.gif" WIDTH="447" HEIGHT="226" BORDER="0">It turns out that this expression is related to what we call the charge, as well as the mass of a material particle, such as an electron. To derive the complete properties of the anisotropic aether gas from the motion of individual gyrons, is an extremely difficult mathematical problem that I was not able to solve yet. Here is a great challenge for a gifted mathematician. The connection between the motion of individual gyrons, and the description of the fluid properties in terms of fields, is termed kinetics. The picture below shows a few gyrons, comprising the aether, as they move through the void space.<IMG  SRC="http://www.neuronet.pitt.edu/~meno/physics/fig2.gif" WIDTH="450" HEIGHT="400" BORDER="0">The variations in size are intended to indicate a perspective view; but the actual gyrons are assumed to be all identical in size and form. They must also be much slimmer in shape than indicated in this picture.Clearly, a legitimate question is: what is the nature of the material that these things are made out of? And, here again, the best I can do is to quote Newton.<I>All these things being consider'd, it seems probable to me, that God in the Beginning form'd Matter in solid, massy, hard, impenetrable, moveable Particles, of such Sizes and Figures, and with such other Properties, and such Proportion to Space, as most conduced to the End for which he form'd them; and that these primitive Particles being Solids, are incomparably harder than any porous Bodies compounded of them; even so very hard, as never to wear or break in pieces; no ordinary Power being able to divide what God himself made one in the first Creation.</I>Ultimately, to account for our existence, some material substance must be postulated. To what agent one attributes this deed is a personal choice that goes beyond the realm of physics. In any case, the purpose of physics is to describe the mechanism of our universe in all its details in the simplest possible way; then, according to Ockham, we may assume that our description is correct.On the scale of the gyron, physics is beyond experimentation, all must be deduced from a hypothesis. According to my model, there are no continuous physical fields in nature. The gyron collisions are instantaneous events, described by the Dirac delta functions. This is mathematically and physically legitimate. A gyron collision can be considered as the limit of an elastic collision, in the manner shown in the following phase diagram, depicting a central collision. For the mathematically oriented readers, this means that at this level of description, physics is purely Newtonian with an Euclidean space, and Galilean invariance.<IMG  SRC="http://www.neuronet.pitt.edu/~meno/physics/phase.gif" WIDTH="575" HEIGHT="392" BORDER="0">The aether must be an anisotropic fluid because, otherwise, it could not manifest all the necessary physical properties to account for the observed physical reality. Failure to realize this was probably the major reason why the aether theories, expounded during the previous centuries, could not succeed. Clearly, since the gyrons, being the matter from which everything else is made, cannot be confined in anything, no direct experimentation is possible to determine their essence and behavior. Therefore, all knowledge about them must be computed mathematically (inferred backwards) from the behavior of the aether.Due to the enormous number of gyrons involved, possibly on the order of 10^90 in each cubic centimeter of space, dealing with individual gyrons, is out of question. Consequently, one must resort to statistical methods, that in turn lead to the velocity-, and other, field representations of the aether. However, it must also be understood that, mathematically, as is well appreciated in ordinary fluid mechanics, this is only an approximation. A specific field variable represents the mean value in its neighborhood, with a statistical uncertainty. In the case of the aether fluid, this corresponds to the Heisenberg uncertainty (+/-)[h/4Pi]. Thus, the price we pay for manageability of the problem, is uncertainty.The undisturbed aether, that we call vacuum, is unobservable. Only such dynamic disturbances as waves and vortices become observable. What we perceive as the physical reality is the dynamics of these vortices and waves in the aether. Specifically, the material particles, such as electrons, correspond to the aether vortices, while electromagnetic radiation, and deBroglie, or matter, waves, correspond to the two possible types of aether waves.The following graph depicts a feasible model for the electron. The flow pattern of gyrons in this particular vortex, represented by the stream lines, can generate all the necessary force fields associated with the electron. The two charge polarities are produced by the right-, and left-handed vortices, while gravity is due to gyron drift towards these dynamic structures.<IMG  SRC="http://www.neuronet.pitt.edu/~meno/physics/gyrons.gif" WIDTH="741" HEIGHT="526" BORDER="0">Consequently, if electrons are vortices, then electron physics can neither be represented by particle mechanics, nor by wave mechanics; instead, vortex mechanics becomes applicable, and, so far, this has not been pursued. Thus, it is due to the complexity of this problem that such empirical theories as quantum wave mechanics and relativity emerged.Since electrons, being vortices, do not behave like the actual fundamental particles (the gyrons), from which they are generated, the concept of non-Newtonian physics was introduced. The mechanics of individual gyrons, however, is Newtonian. It happens that the quantum mechanical probability density corresponds to the numerical gyron density, but this scalar field is not adequate to describe the aether fluid, the velocity vector field is also necessary. Quaternion vector fields may turn out to be a suitable representation for this type of vortex mechanics.Using these ideas, and employing dependable experimental data in conjunction with known fluid dynamics concepts, I was able to derive some promising results, both, qualitative, and quantitative. The details can be found in the following publications:Frank M. Meno, Phys. Essays <B>4</B>, 94 (1991).<I>Ibid.</I> <B>7</B>, 450 (1994).<I>Ibid. <B></I>8</B>, 245 (1995).<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
Respectfully,<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A><BR>
Thomas D. Clark<BR>
tom rhfweb.com<BR>
<A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 04:57:27 EST
Subject: How all cultures on Earth can have succeed in the upcomming Photon Age.
To: aelewis provide.net, newsonline@bbc.co.uk, areilamerican@webtv.net,
        DEACH topica.com, drboylan@sbcglobal.net, thebishop@usadatanet.net,
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How all cultures on Earth can succeed in the upcoming Photon Age.

I believe that all cultures on Earth should be able to adapt to and survive 
the photon age, by simply doing one of the following:

1. For cultures that cannot adapt to photons with natural genes, it may 
possible to insert new chromosomes into their genes, which may be achieved 
with modern genetic splicing technologies, and simple injection by medical 
equipment of the new repaired cell and genetic information into the blood 
stream, as present medical technologies permit, to add new chromosomes for 
patients with flawed genes.  Eventually the rest of the cells will pick up 
the new genes and chromosomes by cell division.  

2. E.T.' and present Earth societies have force field technologies, which can 
project force fields into the Atmosphere of Earth to preserve the ionosphere, 
and to filter out harmful photons and radiation's, so that all Earth cultures 
may survive, and the other Earth cultures that may want to transcend to the 
photon belt cultures, may be allowed to do this also, with certain windows on 
Earth for photons to pass through.  And all cultures may also be allowed to 
use space travel to relocated to other star systems and planets, where they 
may live also. 

3. Some Earth cultures may also live in the inner Earth, and in domed cities 
on the surface of the Earth to filter out harmful photons, and cosmic 
energies. 

4. New photonic and fiber optic solar light technologies not based on EMF or 
electrical-magnetic polarized technologies which may not work well with 
photons may be developed and mass produced within the next 10 to 20 years, 
quite easily, so that pure photonic solar cars, and solar home technologies 
may be used to get power from photons or other cosmic energies, without the 
need of any EMF technologies. 

We only may need to get the general public, the secret powers, and 
governments of Earth, the solar system, and universe, to work together in a 
positive and peaceful manner, so that all cultures may have a win win 
scenario.  There is a win-win scenario for all cultures on Earth, the solar 
system and Universe, but we need to get these cultures to believe in this, 
and promote these ideas, so that they may occur.


Respectfully,

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark
tom rhfweb.com
<A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">How all cultures on Earth can succeed in the upcoming Photon Age.<BR>
<BR>
I believe that all cultures on Earth should be able to adapt to and survive the photon age, by simply doing one of the following:<BR>
<BR>
1. For cultures that cannot adapt to photons with natural genes, it may possible to insert new chromosomes into their genes, which may be achieved with modern genetic splicing technologies, and simple injection by medical equipment of the new repaired cell and genetic information into the blood stream, as present medical technologies permit, to add new chromosomes for patients with flawed genes.&nbsp; Eventually the rest of the cells will pick up the new genes and chromosomes by cell division.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
2. E.T.' and present Earth societies have force field technologies, which can project force fields into the Atmosphere of Earth to preserve the ionosphere, and to filter out harmful photons and radiation's, so that all Earth cultures may survive, and the other Earth cultures that may want to transcend to the photon belt cultures, may be allowed to do this also, with certain windows on Earth for photons to pass through.&nbsp; And all cultures may also be allowed to use space travel to relocated to other star systems and planets, where they may live also. <BR>
<BR>
3. Some Earth cultures may also live in the inner Earth, and in domed cities on the surface of the Earth to filter out harmful photons, and cosmic energies. <BR>
<BR>
4. New photonic and fiber optic solar light technologies not based on EMF or electrical-magnetic polarized technologies which may not work well with photons may be developed and mass produced within the next 10 to 20 years, quite easily, so that pure photonic solar cars, and solar home technologies may be used to get power from photons or other cosmic energies, without the need of any EMF technologies. <BR>
<BR>
We only may need to get the general public, the secret powers, and governments of Earth, the solar system, and universe, to work together in a positive and peaceful manner, so that all cultures may have a win win scenario.&nbsp; There is a win-win scenario for all cultures on Earth, the solar system and Universe, but we need to get these cultures to believe in this, and promote these ideas, so that they may occur.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Respectfully,<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A><BR>
Thomas D. Clark<BR>
tom rhfweb.com<BR>
<A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  5 14:11:07 2002
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Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 14:05:36 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: New independent confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-id: <001f01c28517$78957d00$0a016ea8 cpq>
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There is an IMPRESSIVE new pdf doc at:

http://engineering.eng.rowan.edu/~marchese/finalpres.pdf

NASA INSTITUTE FOR ADVANCED CONCEPTS PHASE I FINAL PRESENTATION  =
ATLANTA, GA, OCTOBER 25, 2002

Done by Dr.Marchese et al. at Rowan Engineering College in Joysee

WOW!

This is not yet proof positive, but if you read between the lines, this =
report says volumes...check out the Balmer line broadening... looks like =
it won't be long before Bob Parks and others will be dining on =
crow....big time.=20

Also, water bath calorimetry - p.9   Is this OU?=20
" For a forward microwave power of 70 W and reflected power of 16 W"  =
[does this mean a net 54 W?], control gas plasmas consistently transfer =
< 40 W into the water while H2/catalyst mixtures transfer 55 to 62W...."

These guys were NOT even supposed to be looking for a positive energy =
balance at this early stage of a very low budget study.=20

Sounds a lot like how a conservative university experimenter PhD would =
"gently" suggest a most surprising energy anomaly to a bunch of rocket =
scientists!

Regards,

Jones Beene

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Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; =
MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial
}
</STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4916.2300" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>There is an IMPRESSIVE&nbsp;new&nbsp;pdf doc at:<BR><BR><A=20
href=3D"http://engineering.eng.rowan.edu/~marchese/finalpres.pdf">http://=
engineering.eng.rowan.edu/~marchese/finalpres.pdf</A><BR><BR>NASA=20
INSTITUTE FOR ADVANCED CONCEPTS PHASE I FINAL PRESENTATION&nbsp; =
ATLANTA, GA,=20
OCTOBER 25, 2002<BR><BR>Done by Dr.Marchese et al. at Rowan Engineering =
College=20
in Joysee</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>WOW!</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This is not yet proof positive, but if you read between the=20
lines,&nbsp;this report says volumes...check out the Balmer line =
broadening...=20
looks like it won't be long before Bob Parks and others will be dining =
on=20
crow....big time. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Also, water bath calorimetry - p.9&nbsp;&nbsp; Is this OU? </DIV>
<DIV>" <FONT face=3DArial,Bold>For a forward microwave power of 70 W and =
reflected=20
power of 16 W"&nbsp;&nbsp;[does this mean a net 54 W?], control gas =
plasmas=20
consistently transfer &lt; 40 W into the water while H</FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial,Bold>2</FONT><FONT face=3DArial,Bold>/catalyst mixtures =
transfer 55 to=20
62W...."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>These guys were&nbsp;NOT even supposed to be looking for a positive =
energy=20
balance at this early stage of a very low budget study. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Sounds a lot like how&nbsp;a conservative university experimenter=20
PhD&nbsp;would "gently" suggest a most surprising&nbsp;energy anomaly to =
a bunch=20
of rocket scientists!<BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Jones =
Beene<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C284D4.6A16AF80--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  5 18:19:16 2002
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <001f01c28517$78957d00$0a016ea8 cpq>
Subject: Re: New independent confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 21:16:14 -0800
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This link should get careful study by vortex members. Most of the =
equipment shown is at the BLP laboratories, where work was done by Rowan =
students with the help of BLP staff. Note carefully that evidence for =
anomalous energy production in mixtures of hydrogen and certain noble =
gases was seen before Mills' work, but Mills is the first to give a =
coherent explanation from his CQM theory. There are a number of very =
strongly OU experiments in the papers posted on the BLP website. There =
are serious engineering problems in extracting the energy efficiently =
enough to close the loop so that only water is needed as fuel for =
indefinite energy production.=20

What are most important here are that a) NASA thinks enough of the =
potential to sponsor a $75,000 preliminary study by Rowan University, =
and that b) confirmation of many BLP claims is published as Rowan work. =
Views of the laboratory will show the extensive work that BLP has done =
in mounting experiments.=20

Mike Carrell
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Jones Beene=20
  To: vortex=20
  Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 2:05 PM
  Subject: New independent confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?


  There is an IMPRESSIVE new pdf doc at:

  http://engineering.eng.rowan.edu/~marchese/finalpres.pdf

  NASA INSTITUTE FOR ADVANCED CONCEPTS PHASE I FINAL PRESENTATION  =
ATLANTA, GA, OCTOBER 25, 2002

  Done by Dr.Marchese et al. at Rowan Engineering College in Joysee

  WOW!

  This is not yet proof positive, but if you read between the lines, =
this report says volumes...check out the Balmer line broadening... looks =
like it won't be long before Bob Parks and others will be dining on =
crow....big time.=20

  Also, water bath calorimetry - p.9   Is this OU?=20
  " For a forward microwave power of 70 W and reflected power of 16 W"  =
[does this mean a net 54 W?], control gas plasmas consistently transfer =
< 40 W into the water while H2/catalyst mixtures transfer 55 to 62W...."

  These guys were NOT even supposed to be looking for a positive energy =
balance at this early stage of a very low budget study.=20

  Sounds a lot like how a conservative university experimenter PhD would =
"gently" suggest a most surprising energy anomaly to a bunch of rocket =
scientists!

  Regards,

  Jones Beene


------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C28510.9257E540
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; =
MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial
}
</STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">This link should get careful study =
by vortex=20
members. Most of the equipment shown is at the BLP laboratories, where =
work was=20
done by Rowan students with the help of BLP staff. Note carefully that =
evidence=20
for anomalous energy production in mixtures of hydrogen and certain =
noble gases=20
was seen before Mills' work, but Mills is the first to give a coherent=20
explanation from his CQM theory. There are a number of very strongly OU=20
experiments in the papers posted on the BLP website. There are serious=20
engineering problems in extracting the energy efficiently enough to =
close the=20
loop so that only water is needed as fuel for indefinite energy =
production.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">What are most important here are =
that a) NASA=20
thinks enough of the potential to sponsor a $75,000 preliminary study by =
Rowan=20
University, and that b) confirmation of many BLP claims is published as =
Rowan=20
work. Views of the laboratory will show the extensive work that BLP has =
done in=20
mounting experiments. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Mike Carrell</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Djonesb9 pacbell.net =
href=3D"mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net">Jones Beene</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 05, =
2002 2:05=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> New independent =
confirmation of=20
  Mills' hydrino for NASA?</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>There is an IMPRESSIVE&nbsp;new&nbsp;pdf doc at:<BR><BR><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://engineering.eng.rowan.edu/~marchese/finalpres.pdf">http://=
engineering.eng.rowan.edu/~marchese/finalpres.pdf</A><BR><BR>NASA=20
  INSTITUTE FOR ADVANCED CONCEPTS PHASE I FINAL PRESENTATION&nbsp; =
ATLANTA, GA,=20
  OCTOBER 25, 2002<BR><BR>Done by Dr.Marchese et al. at Rowan =
Engineering=20
  College in Joysee</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>WOW!</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>This is not yet proof positive, but if you read between the=20
  lines,&nbsp;this report says volumes...check out the Balmer line =
broadening...=20
  looks like it won't be long before Bob Parks and others will be dining =
on=20
  crow....big time. </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Also, water bath calorimetry - p.9&nbsp;&nbsp; Is this OU? </DIV>
  <DIV>" <FONT face=3DArial,Bold>For a forward microwave power of 70 W =
and=20
  reflected power of 16 W"&nbsp;&nbsp;[does this mean a net 54 W?], =
control gas=20
  plasmas consistently transfer &lt; 40 W into the water while =
H</FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial,Bold>2</FONT><FONT face=3DArial,Bold>/catalyst mixtures =
transfer 55=20
  to 62W...."</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>These guys were&nbsp;NOT even supposed to be looking for a =
positive=20
  energy balance at this early stage of a very low budget study. </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Sounds a lot like how&nbsp;a conservative university experimenter =

  PhD&nbsp;would "gently" suggest a most surprising&nbsp;energy anomaly =
to a=20
  bunch of rocket scientists!<BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Jones=20
Beene<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C28510.9257E540--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  5 20:45:21 2002
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Message-ID: <3DC89E2F.92D26482 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 06:44:31 +0200
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Hi,

I put small Al foil piece (i.e. 1" x 1", folded a bit) in a glass container and put it inside my mw oven.

When I turned power on, first arcing start on foil, then orange/white plasma develop It look look a fire ball in 1-4 cm diameter (varied on each experiment), and rise slowly or gain some height.
Plasma is sustained as long as mw is on, but I need to turn off because it heat the container and burn the plastic sheet of piece that a cover the container.
Total duration is about 10-20 seconds. Plasma is also noisy and modulated with 50 HZ main power frequency.

I just repeated this experience, and saw the plasma distinctly separate from the al foil at the bottom and elevate of 10cm above. I observed also the al foil is partially burned and a strong metallic odor is present in the container. Plasma can not pass trough this sheet without opening a burned hole

Anybody familiar with such an experiment please explain what happening there.

hamdixzzzzzzz

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov  5 22:01:01 2002
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From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <1bd.134b1dd6.2afa0992 aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 00:58:42 EST
Subject: Re: Why plasma appears in the mw oven
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In a message dated 11/5/2002 11:44:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:

> Anybody familiar with such an experiment please explain what happening there

I believe the interfering scalar microwaves, created cold fusion subnuclear 
light explosions in the metal to create the cold and hot light plasma.  
Thanks for the idea, I have been looking for a new photonic battery or energy 
source. 

Respectfully,

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark
tom rhfweb.com
<A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 11/5/2002 11:44:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Anybody familiar with such an experiment please explain what happening there</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I believe the interfering scalar microwaves, created cold fusion subnuclear light explosions in the metal to create the cold and hot light plasma.&nbsp; Thanks for the idea, I have been looking for a new photonic battery or energy source. <BR>
<BR>
Respectfully,<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A><BR>
Thomas D. Clark<BR>
tom rhfweb.com<BR>
<A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:10:43 EST
Subject: Monopole Quantum Positive Cold Electron Photonic Energy Device
To: aelewis provide.net, thebishop@usadatanet.net, drboylan@sbcglobal.net,
        mediator mint.ocn.ne.jp, prj@mail.msen.com, riverwaves7@hotmail.com,
        vortex-l eskimo.com, Roundtable7@yahoogroups.com
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Monopole Quantum Positive Cold Electron Photonic Energy Device

Metal or Crystal cone to collect photonic light, water, or air<> Converter 
(To convert the Hydrogen ions in Water H2, Oxygen ions in Air 02 and Water, 
and Photonic light wave ions in Cosmic or Solar light E into positive 
particle electron ions to be used for energy or stored as energy ) <>two 
holographic wave oscillators(To be used to generate scalar waves to create 
cold implosion fusion energy pockets in piece of metal or palladium) to 
create high amounts of energy <> Metal/Pallidum <> laser crystal to amplify, 
channel, and organized the ions into a powerful energy beam which may be used 
to do work to run a motor<> a positive electron energy crank or positive 
electron battery to store positive electrons, to get the device running, 
which is later recharged by local ions or the metal or palladium fusion<> and 
fiber optic or cold electrical positive electron circuits and processing 
chips through out the device<> chamber to store unused chemical byproducts 
such as water, air, or plasma residue, to be reused later.


Respectfully,

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark
tom rhfweb.com
<A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Monopole Quantum Positive Cold Electron Photonic Energy Device<BR>
<BR>
Metal or Crystal cone to collect photonic light, water, or air&lt;&gt; Converter (To convert the Hydrogen ions in Water H2, Oxygen ions in Air 02 and Water, and Photonic light wave ions in Cosmic or Solar light E into positive particle electron ions to be used for energy or stored as energy ) &lt;&gt;two holographic wave oscillators(To be used to generate scalar waves to create cold implosion fusion energy pockets in piece of metal or palladium) to create high amounts of energy &lt;&gt; Metal/Pallidum &lt;&gt; laser crystal to amplify, channel, and organized the ions into a powerful energy beam which may be used to do work to run a motor&lt;&gt; a positive electron energy crank or positive electron battery to store positive electrons, to get the device running, which is later recharged by local ions or the metal or palladium fusion&lt;&gt; and fiber optic or cold electrical positive electron circuits and processing chips through out the device&lt;&gt; chamber to store unused chemical byproducts such as water, air, or plasma residue, to be reused later.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Respectfully,<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A><BR>
Thomas D. Clark<BR>
tom rhfweb.com<BR>
<A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov  6 13:02:51 2002
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Subject: Re: New independent confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
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This site contains viewgraphs. (I guess they are Powerpoint slides in 
modern terminology.) Anyway, the descriptions are kind of telegraphic. 
(Reaching back to a 19th century term.)

Mike:

Can you summarize or perhaps simplify some key sections of these 
viewgraphs? Tell us what the people from Rowan did. How was it independent 
of, and different from, what the BLP people did? Can you address Beene's 
question: does p. 9 indicate OU performance?

The presentation was in Atlanta. I wish I had known it was happening. A 
lecture or paper would make these viewgraphs easier to understand.

Maybe we can contact the authors, but I would like to understand the 
presentation better before trying that.

- Jed


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Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 23:34:02 +0200
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Subject: Re: New independent confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
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Their web pages say the final results will be published at December 1.

Usually, such things never happens, considering positive report of excess energy.

hamdi ucar


Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> This site contains viewgraphs. (I guess they are Powerpoint slides in
> modern terminology.) Anyway, the descriptions are kind of telegraphic.
> (Reaching back to a 19th century term.)
> 
> Mike:
> 
> Can you summarize or perhaps simplify some key sections of these
> viewgraphs? Tell us what the people from Rowan did. How was it independent
> of, and different from, what the BLP people did? Can you address Beene's
> question: does p. 9 indicate OU performance?
> 
> The presentation was in Atlanta. I wish I had known it was happening. A
> lecture or paper would make these viewgraphs easier to understand.
> 
> Maybe we can contact the authors, but I would like to understand the
> presentation better before trying that.
> 
> - Jed

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Subject: Re: New independent confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
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Jed said:


> This site contains viewgraphs. (I guess they are Powerpoint slides in
> modern terminology.) Anyway, the descriptions are kind of telegraphic.
> (Reaching back to a 19th century term.)
>
> Mike:
>
> Can you summarize or perhaps simplify some key sections of these
> viewgraphs? Tell us what the people from Rowan did. How was it independent
> of, and different from, what the BLP people did? Can you address Beene's
> question: does p. 9 indicate OU performance?
>
> The presentation was in Atlanta. I wish I had known it was happening. A
> lecture or paper would make these viewgraphs easier to understand.
>
> Maybe we can contact the authors, but I would like to understand the
> presentation better before trying that.


In response to Jed's request, and for the benefit of vortexians who have not
been closely following Mills' work (I have), I will try to add some
perspective to the view graphs. They begin with a background of Mills' work.

The third chart titled "Background" is a very important rebuttal to skeptics
who claim that nobody has duplicated the BLP phenomena. The chart is based
on papers recently posted at BLP. It says that when hydrogen is present with
certain noble gases in ionizing discharges (three types), unexpected
spectrograms are seen, sometimes unexplainably bright. Hydrogen emission in
the visible range has a very strong line called the 'alpha' line. Normally,
this line is quite sharp as seen under normal conditions, but in these
instances, the line is significantly broadened. This is attributed to
Doppler shift in the radiation of fast moving hydrogen atoms, indicating
that the plasma is very energetic and very hot. It is a signature of energy
release.

If you measure the relative intensity of lines in the hydrogen spectrum,
they normally bear a predictable relation to each other, the "Boltzmann"
distribution. In these discharges, the distribution is skewed, with more
energy going to wavelengths associated with "excited" states of the atoms th
an to "ground states". This is a precondition for laser action.

Note that these conditions were seen by earlier investigators, before Mills,
but the explanations were convoluted and unsatisfactory.

The fourth "Background" chart lists papers at the BLP website discussing
these phenomena as seen in the course of BLP's experimental program. Many of
the experiments have been done using a quartz tube, a half-inch in diameter,
extending through an "Evanson" cavity coupled to a microwave power
generator. This is standard lab gear for using microwaves to ionize gases
for spectroscopic examination of various kinds. In an number of the
experiments, pure gases are introduced at a controlled flow rate through the
cavity and are pumped out past the cavity. The pressure is quite low, 1 Torr
or less, and the flow rate is about 5 standard cubic centimeters per minute
(sccm). It is important to note that the excited plasma conditions persist
over five cm downstream from the Evanson cavity itself, as can be seen in
several of the photos.

The study objective (chart 4) was to determine whether these BLP reactions
could be the basis for a microthruster design. A limitation to deep space
exploration is the specific impulse of the thruster. Preliminary estimates
by Marchese said:     "Preliminary calculations suggest that a BlackLight
Rocket (BLR) engine can achieve performance several orders of magnitude
greater  than chemical rocket propulsion (e.g. I_sp > 10,000 s)." There are
no theoretical limits on how much thrust can be produced, as there are with
ion drives.

There are two possibilities: using a BLP reactor to heat a propellant gas,
or to expel the plasma itself through a jet nozzle.

The presentation proceeds with a review and evaluation of experimental data.
The data shown are consistent with results posted in papers on the BLP
website, but there are interesting differences. It is not clear whether
Marchese et. al. are summarizing data given by BLP, or whether they
witnessed experimental runs staged by BLP for their benefit. .

Chart 5 shows typical line broadening data as seen in Mills experiments,
along with an image of the cell in operation. What is dramatically
significant in this case is that the gas in the cell is ***water vapor***.
The pressure, maintained by vacuum pumps, is low enough that water
vaporizes. Microwaves ionize the oxygen to the O++ state, which meets the
criterion as a BLP catalyst, converting hydrogen atoms to hydrinos of
various states of shrinkage, and releasing energy.

Chart 6 is an illustration of what is meant by "population inversion". Note
that the data are for water vapor.

Chart 7 shows apparatus and spectra in the Vacuum Ultra Violet range. It is
from this radiation that the corporate name "Black Light Power" comes. The
wavelength is so short that all materials are opaque to it, so to see it at
all the plasma emits the light through a pinhole in a chamber connected to a
vacuum pump and shines with grazing incidence on a spectrometer grating in a
vacuum chamber. Two features are important about the graphs. The gases in
the microwave cavity are helium with about 2 % hydrogen. Ionized helium is a
BLP catalyst. Very strong heat generation is observed with no possible
combustion, He being chemically inert.

The red curve shows a series of peaks. Such series are unusual, and are
associated with "vibrational" modes -- an electron is oscillating between a
bound and free state in many modes. Mills provides calculation based on
properties of hydrinos which can interact with free electrons, which closely
match the series of wavelengths given. He presents this as objective proof
of the existence of hydrinos.

    More recently, and separate from this study, Mills has condensed a gas
from a microwave cell in a liquid nitrogen trap and characterized     it by
a number of techniques. It matches no known substance, but is consistent
with a hydrino liquid.

Chart 8 shows one of several methods of calorimetry used to measure the heat
output of microwave plasmas. Basically, the Evanson cavity is made water
tight and the whole apparatus submerged into a water bath, with the rate of
temperature rise taken as a measure of heat output. In the illustration the
cavity is filled with krypton, which is not a BLP catalyst, and run with a
measured power input. Water vapor is used next, with a significantly steeper
heating rate.

The data in this particular run do not support *system* OU, for more energy
goes into the microwave generator than comes out of the cell. The generator
is dumping 70 watts into the cavity and 16 watts are reflected back (these
are readings available from meters on the generator. Ideally the cavity is
tuned to minimize reflected power. So one can say that 54 watts are
dissipated in the cavity to ionize the gas in the cell and heat the metal of
the cavity itself due to various losses. With krypton gas (and other noble
gases not BLP catalysts), about 40 watts is transferred to heat the water
bath. With water vapor, ~63 watts is transferred, so one can see a 63/54
watt OU ratio.

In other papers with the microwave cell and using a H-He+ (2% H) mixture,
300 W thermal output power (the cell temperature reached 900 C) was measured
with 30 W microwave input using one method of calorimetry; in another
experiment, using Calvet calorimetry, 60 W were measured for in a input
power of 22 W. Using the water bath calorimeter, 30 W heat output was
measured for an input microwave power of 8.1 W.

This, and other methods used by Mills are not the very refined methods used
with CF experiments where often the excess heat signal is a fraction of a
watt. In these experiments the power densities are very much higher. In one
experiment, the H-He+ reaction had to be stopped before the quartz tube was
melted.

Details of these experiments are in papers posted on the BLP website. The
point to be taken home is clear evidence that dramatic energy releases are
seen in experiments predicted by BLP catalyst rules. One can quibble with
the refinement of the calorimetry, but the effects are so huge that it is
like quibbling about a house burning down or the sun rising in the morning.

Chart 9 states in brief summary the theoretical core of Mills' work. It
leads to what I have called "Mills Rules" which point to states of atoms
which are BLP catalysts and those which are not. The success rate of these
rules is simply staggering. One can quibble ad nauseum about Mills' theory,
but the success of Mills Rules compels respectful attention.

Chart 10 indicates the basis for a thruster using the excited plasma.

Chart 11 shows two conceptual designs for BLP thrusters in comparison with
other proposals.

Charts 12-16 show the evolution of a thruster design based on an H2/Ne
reactor with DC excitation. The cross section of the apparatus is similar to
that used in other BLP experiments with glow discharges. This is the
beginning of Rowan's direct contribution to the project.

Charts 18 & 19 show steps in developing a nozzle at the end of a microwave
plasma cell.

The remainder of the charts show preparation for future work in a Phase 2
contract. I am told that a more complete report will be published in
December.

It's evident that Marchese had the wholehearted cooperation of BLP and
access to their advice, labs and equipment to do this work. For those who
think that 'nothing is going on' at BLP, they need only to look carefully at
the pictures, which show carefully built and expensive equipment used in
BLP's research work. The plasmas seen are very hot indeed.

Salient points from recent postings include:

Hydrinos are very real. They have distinctive signatures in emitted spectra
where "Mills Rules" apply and are not present where Mills Rules do not
apply. Hydrino gas liquefies at liquid N2 temperature (actual boiling point
still being determined).

Powerful BLP reactions are seen between H and some ionized noble gases (He,
Ar, Ne) but not others.

Powerful BLP reactions can used water vapor as fuel with microwave
ionization of O. Powerful hydrogen lasers operating at wavelengths from the
UV to IR are possibilities.

Direct extraction of electrical energy from the plasma has been demonstrated
on a small scale. BLP is very quiet about techniques for scale up, which may
have formidable engineering problems. Discussions of applications in the
Company Description indicate commercial viability without necessarily
"closing the loop" so a system runs indefinitely exclusively on water input.
The point is that BLP processes can extract much more energy from hydrogen
than any competition. Therefore it doesn't have to be "self sustaining" to
be competitive, or to be "real".

I hope this commentary is helpful to vortexians in understanding the Rowan
BlackLight Power Rocket Engine. I will field questions as they may arise.

Mike Carrell



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  7 07:32:44 2002
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From: Yakov Smirnoff <rockcast net-link.net>
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On Saturday 19 October 2002 09:58, hamdi ucar wrote:
> Dear Jed and all,
> 
> Podkletnov does not advertising his work (except a "mistake" at 1995). It is 
easy to dismiss it after 7 years. Podkletnov's work does not take attention 
of scientific communities, no significant papers so far is published 
investigation the phenomenon or on conditions leading to phenomenon. This is 
important.
> 
> Interest to Podkletnov work comes mainly from industrial or military sectors 
so far but not from scientific communities. I understand that Podkletnov is 
not cooperative on replication on his experiment by other parties, but one 
should not accuse a scientist for his policy on use his discovery on non 
scientific purposes. "non scientific" Term used here is correct IMO, because 
NASA for example did not released their findings on recent moon eclipse 
anomaly, and there would be more examples where NASA not satisfy scientific 
requirements. Either Boeing is working routinely on classified projects and 
obviously can not disclose their scientific findings. They are not scientific 
institutions.
> 
> On the other hand papers released by Podkletnov and Modanese appears having 
sufficient information and details for scientific investigation of the effect 
if not, for total replication of his experiments. So I think Podkletnov 
satisfy completely scientific criteria and his scientific responsibility.
> 
> In this circumstance it is hard to understand why people express their 
negative opinions on Podkletnov work even without an occasion. 
> 
> 
> Jed Rothwell wrote:
> > 
> > Good summary. See:
> > 
> > http://slate.msn.com/default.aspx?id=2072733
> > 
> > - JR
> 
> Regards,
> 
> hamdi ucar
> 
> 
>you have that one right.  Years ago, a scientist named Davis who worked
out of a college in Florida postulated a theory generally called 'Davis
Mechanics'.  It was published once in a magazine and then promptly sank
out of sight.  That was in 1972.  Some years back the main gun on the
Abrams tank was referred to cryptically as a 'Davis' Gun.  The same principle
would apply  as Davis mechanics referred to another term that should
be in the force equation that refers to the effects of relative change of
acceleration.  It is also the principle of nail guns.  Too many coincidences
to be 'just a guy named Davis'.

Yakov

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  7 09:34:50 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Help correct Google
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This is a strange request, but I would appreciate it if several people 
would click here:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=iccf10

. . . and select the 4th item on the list "ICCF10"

DO NOT select the first item on the list.

Google lists by popularity, and the first item has an incorrect, out of 
date URL. (Don't click it to see what I mean!) I asked the author to fix it 
but he did not. It will not take many people to shift the popularity vote 
to the fourth item. The same person clicking over and over again does not 
do the job. Goggle has programmed that not to work because people promote 
their own sites by doing it with a robot.

- Jed


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The problem here is not related to popularity but the search keyword, IMO.

If one search "ICCF-10" instead of "ICCF10" on Google, correct site come first.

Regards,

hamdi ucar


Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> This is a strange request, but I would appreciate it if several people
> would click here:
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=iccf10
> 
> . . . and select the 4th item on the list "ICCF10"
> 
> DO NOT select the first item on the list.
> 
> Google lists by popularity, and the first item has an incorrect, out of
> date URL. (Don't click it to see what I mean!) I asked the author to fix it
> but he did not. It will not take many people to shift the popularity vote
> to the fourth item. The same person clicking over and over again does not
> do the job. Goggle has programmed that not to work because people promote
> their own sites by doing it with a robot.
> 
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  7 10:18:55 2002
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Subject: Re: Help correct Google
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hamdi ucar wrote:

>The problem here is not related to popularity but the search keyword, IMO.
>
>If one search "ICCF-10" instead of "ICCF10" on Google, correct site come 
>first.

Yes, but if many people search for "ICCF10" and select item 4, that will 
also work correctly. (That is, it will push #4 to position #1.)

The Googlebot visited LENR-CANR.org the other day, showing up 129 times 
strangely enough. It inflated our visitor count. I do not think it 
downloaded the papers, since some of them had zero access counts that day. 
Maybe it comes in once for each HTML file? I doubt we are linked by 129 
other sites.

I forgot to upload a dreadful paper by Jones paper from Accountability in 
Research. I just uploaded it today, along with good stuff from Cellucci and 
Cisbani.

- Jed


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Subject: Gozzi paper too
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Also I just uploaded a paper by Gozzi, similar to Cellucci, but with more 
detail and more figures. About x-rays, to which more attention should be 
paid, I think.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  7 12:04:26 2002
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Subject: Line width:  confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
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	Dear Vo.,

	A brief note on line width.  In part of the comment of posted
papers a hydrogen and inert gas mixture plasma exhibited spectral line
width broadening.
	Unless one knows the specifics of the plasma and the experimental
set up it is possible line width broadening being equated with "extra"
energy may be a leap at a conclusion.
	In moderate to strong magnetic fields the spectral line broadening
can also be exhibited.  An example where this may occur in plasma is found
as a result of magnetic fields caused by current flow in both DC, AC and
all the way to and through microwave driven and Inductively coupled
plasmas.

	Not to toss a wrench in the data, per se, the point is one should
be aware of and have access to all of the experimental set up details so
one may first cast out all known effects, then such artifact as can be
determined and THEN one may theorize line broadening is the result of
"XXX" effect of property.

	Is cannot be stressed to frequently in view of many "Quantum
Theory" based "explanations" of various effects:
	Quantum Theory is Therory, mathematical theory that permits one to
predict the behavior of SOME atomic and sub atomic particles in SOME
cases, SOME of the time IF one adheres to certain specific mathematic
parameters and rules and guidelines.  Quantum Theory is NOT physical law
or rule.  It IS useful, but it is NOT the do all end all be all.


							JH

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  7 12:17:12 2002
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Subject: ICCF10.org is off line
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ICCF10 dropped off line for some reason. I hope the ISP clears up the 
problem. The "correct Google" procedure I mentioned will produce a "cannot 
find server" message.

It was there this morning!

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  7 15:05:29 2002
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Subject: Re: Line width:  confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
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John Schnurer wrote:

>         A brief note on line width.  In part of the comment of posted
>papers a hydrogen and inert gas mixture plasma exhibited spectral line
>width broadening.
>         Unless one knows the specifics of the plasma and the experimental
>set up it is possible line width broadening being equated with "extra"
>energy may be a leap at a conclusion.

In that case the calorimetry described in Fig. 9 is critical. It is 
sketchy, and a lot can go wrong with calorimetry. It reminds me a little of 
the techniques Mills used years ago at Thermacore. They were not bad, but 
the scale was large and the technique was crude, making it difficult to judge.

I have been staring at the graph in Fig. 9 for some time, which is 
puzzling. Why did they start at two different temperatures? Perhaps there 
is a good reason . . . The second curve, for H2O goes from 23 to 25 deg C. 
It is obviously steeper, and if anything it should flatten out a little as 
the temperature rises, so that does indicate excess heat. But I hope they 
have a lot more data where that came from.

I do not understand the caption either. It says they immersed the Evenson 
cavity and plasma tube in the water bath. Those most be the two gadgets 
placed on top of the bath for the photo. If they are both immersed, this 
sentence in the caption does not compute:

"For a forward microwave power of 70 W and reflected power of 16 W, control 
gas plasma is consistently transfer less than 40 watts into the water while 
H2/catalysts mixtures transfer 55 to 62 W."

How can you tell what goes forward and what is reflected? Everything is in 
the same bath.

I am not arguing with the technique. It is a good idea to immerse 
everything. Trouble will arise when you must make assumptions about 
microwave generator efficiency, or when you have to measure some fraction 
of the input power separately -- in two stages. Roger Stringham got into 
trouble with his ultrasound generators because he was forced to measure 
power in two stages. He thought there was excess heat, but improved 
calorimetry performed by Mallove et al. showed that Stringham probably did 
not accurately measure how much electricity converts into ultrasound.

That sentence seems to imply they break out or estimate the "forward power" 
somehow. In that case, the excess is an extrapolation which would make me 
nervous.

- Jed


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From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>

> Also I just uploaded a paper by Gozzi, similar to Cellucci, but with more
> detail and more figures. About x-rays, to which more attention should be
> paid, I think.


Amen. Too few studies have emphasized x-rays, but his one goes right to the
heart of the matter. The Italians seem to have discovered a "silver bullet."

This is another extraordinary paper because, like the Naval China Lake work, the
evidence that is presented here for reactions other than normal chemical
reactions (i.e. nuclear or supra-chemical) is almost unassailable. When x-rays
are present, most of the skeptics with their alternative explanations for helium
and excess heat (like contamination)  begin to sound very foolish indeed.

As the author carefully states his case (slightly reworded)  "Can a simple
chemical process like the loading of deuterium into the Pd lattice, whose energy
is 0.1 eV per cm3, produce X-ray emission or other nuclear products at ten of
keV or some MeV?

The answer is, based on the chemistry we know, NO!

But the explanation is hard to find anywhere in our current knowledge of
physics."

Right on.

Unfortunately, the further explanation by the Gozzi group for the precise avenue
for the findings IMO does not seem to represent the most probably scenario -
that is, for the eventual  ~89 keV photons, which should be regarded as proof or
something non-chemical. They state:

"A working hypothesis to find an explanation for this, could be found on the
following
nuclear process:

46Pd105 + alpha > 48Cd109 100%,EC,453d
48Cd109 > 47Ag109m [88.03keV} >47Ag109

where the stable isotope 105 of Pd (natural abundance22.33%) captures the alphas
produced by the d,d fusion, generating the Cd isotope 109.

Note: In contrast to the findings of Storms et al. they find little evidence of
fusion within the Pd lattice and seem to be content to accept that it can occur
externally in the electrolyte or right on the interface but not necessarily
interior - and do not even mention the possibility that the alphas could come
from alpha decay following neutron capture.

This 109 nuclide that they have identified is unstable and by electron capture
transforms with a halftime of 453 days in the metastable isotope [i.e. isomer]
109 of Silver. But problem #1 is that this half-life is too long.

The second problem, huge problem (insurmountable really) for this particular
explanation is that the cross-section of 105Pd for alphas is extremely low.

However there are a number of alternative scenarios that may accomplish the same
thing and , even though not without controversy of their own, but the
alternative dynamics should be considered since we must accept that 109 Ag
isomer is a likely step because of the unusual x-ray.

There is a 108Pd isotope that is ~12% natural abundance, AND it has a very high
cross section for neutrons of moderate energy AND it would give you the same 109
Ag isotope on beta decay.

Getting to 109 Ag is a key to this puzzle but how you get there is the problem,
and also one needs to ask if the necessary metastable isomer stage is always
seen. Gozzi probably balked at 109 Ag via 108 Pd because he isn't seeing many
free neutrons, but there's an elegant way to explain that too : tunneling.

Where would the neutron come from specifically? There are three overlapping
possibilities and they highlight a major problem of CF dynamics, because these
explanations aren't well known or widely accepted either. One involves neutron
"stripping," one involves deuteron tunneling and the last involves deuteron
(deuterino) shrinkage.

I wish/hope Gozzi et al. will have the opportunity to firm up the finding in the
future by being able to test the various isotopes in question again against this
experiment, using this one as the control. If a cathode enriched in 108 Pd
performed better than one enriched in 105, then the answer about the precise
mechanics would be clearer.

Unfortunately getting hold of such isotopes would probably be very expensive.
And even so, it would only explain this unique setup.

The Naval lab results, however similar in outward appearance, are very different
in some aspects and have very different dynamics, especially the x-ray
signature, which is at ~21 keV and likely is a k-shell interaction.

Cold fusion is beginning to look like a patchwork quilt with numerous different
panels that can interlock, such that the end result, excess heat, is often the
only thing they really have in common.

Regards,

Jones Beene




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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Line width:  confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
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--- Jed Rothwell &lt;JedRothwell infinite-energy.com&gt; wrote:
&gt; John Schnurer wrote:
&gt; 
&gt; In that case the calorimetry described in Fig. 9 is critical. It is 
&gt; sketchy, and a lot can go wrong with calorimetry. It reminds me a
&gt; little of 
&gt; the techniques Mills used years ago at Thermacore. They were not
bad,
&gt; but 
&gt; the scale was large and the technique was crude, making it difficult
to
&gt; judge.
&gt; 

Yes it can be tricky.  Many times I will choose a more 'crude' method
because it is trusted.   New does not always mean better or even good.

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov  7 20:42:25 2002
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Subject: Re: Line width:  confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
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Jed wrote:


> John Schnurer wrote:
>
> >         A brief note on line width.  In part of the comment of posted
> >papers a hydrogen and inert gas mixture plasma exhibited spectral line
> >width broadening.
> >         Unless one knows the specifics of the plasma and the
experimental
> >set up it is possible line width broadening being equated with "extra"
> >energy may be a leap at a conclusion.
>
> In that case the calorimetry described in Fig. 9 is critical.

No, it's not, Jed, in the context. John raised his point to show that one
has to look at the whole picture, and my response to the point is that one
has to look at the whole picture. Look at the paper "Plasma Power Source
Based on a Catalytic Reaction of atomic Hydrogen Measured by Water Bath
Calorimetry" on the BLP website. There you will find details and another run
using H/Kr as a control and H-He+ as the active reaction. While you are at
it, also look at "New Power Source from Fractional Quatum energy Levels of
Atomic Hydrogen that Surpasses Internal Combustion" and "Plasma Power Source
Based on a Catalytic Reaction of Atomic Hydrogen".

You will see that all papers deal with several methods of calorimetry
applied to the H-He+ reaction using the Evanson cavity. This reaction is so
improbable (He getting energy from H?) and so powerful that Mills used five
different methods of calorimetry to estimate the energy output. When you
realize that the primary energy is deep UV radiation, you can begin to
understand the problem of energy extraction.

Now you've had many years in the trenches with calorimetry and none of these
setups would be impressive were Mills dealing with fractions of a watt of OU
energy. It's more like trying to measure the energy of a burning house. You
have to recalibrate yourself.

The water vapor reaction was disclosed after the above cited papers were
released, so the Rowan experiments used water vapor in the submerged cell
instead of the H-He mixture, giving somewhat different results.

The only important issue is that H with catalysts does something different
than H without catalysts.

It is
> sketchy, and a lot can go wrong with calorimetry. It reminds me a little
of
> the techniques Mills used years ago at Thermacore. They were not bad, but
> the scale was large and the technique was crude, making it difficult to
judge.

The scale is so large that the crudenss of the method is not an issue.
>
> I have been staring at the graph in Fig. 9 for some time, which is
> puzzling. Why did they start at two different temperatures? Perhaps there
> is a good reason . . . The second curve, for H2O goes from 23 to 25 deg C.
> It is obviously steeper, and if anything it should flatten out a little as
> the temperature rises, so that does indicate excess heat. But I hope they
> have a lot more data where that came from.

See the papers I have referenced above. Don't get bogged down in the details
beyond seeing that everything is described, etc. Look at the setup
schematics and the thermal data. Don't bother with the spectra.
>
> I do not understand the caption either. It says they immersed the Evenson
> cavity and plasma tube in the water bath. Those most be the two gadgets
> placed on top of the bath for the photo.

This is the drive for the stirrer. The cavity is submerged and not visible.

If they are both immersed, this
> sentence in the caption does not compute:
>
> "For a forward microwave power of 70 W and reflected power of 16 W,
control
> gas plasma is consistently transfer less than 40 watts into the water
while
> H2/catalysts mixtures transfer 55 to 62 W."
>
> How can you tell what goes forward and what is reflected? Everything is in
> the same bath.

You are unfamiliar with microwave technology. The Evanson cavity and the
connecting cable form a resonant circuit with the generator inside the box.
The generator frequency is fixed. The cavity must be "tuned" for optimum
power transfer, but this is not always possible, so some of the energy put
out is "reflected" back into the generator. It is equivalent to "reactive
power" in utility systems. The generator box has circuits to measure the
reflected power and one tunes the system to minimize it. Having done the
best you can, you had a way of estimating the power actually dissipated in
the load.
>
> I am not arguing with the technique. It is a good idea to immerse
> everything. Trouble will arise when you must make assumptions about
> microwave generator efficiency, or when you have to measure some fraction
> of the input power separately -- in two stages.

See above.

 Roger Stringham got into
> trouble with his ultrasound generators because he was forced to measure
> power in two stages. He thought there was excess heat, but improved
> calorimetry performed by Mallove et al. showed that Stringham probably did
> not accurately measure how much electricity converts into ultrasound.
>
> That sentence seems to imply they break out or estimate the "forward
power"
> somehow. In that case, the excess is an extrapolation which would make me
> nervous.

See above and don't be nervous. Excess heat in a CF sense is not the issue
here. Far more significant physically is the Balmer line broadening and
Mills has taken pains to demonstrated that the effect is real and not an
artifact. It is a direct measure of the temperature of hydrogen atoms
undergoing the BLP catalyst reaction. The implied temperature is >> 10,000 C
in a rarefied gas.

Mike Carrell

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Subject: Re: Line width:  confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
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Jed wrote:
<snip>
> In that case the calorimetry described in Fig. 9 is critical. It is
> sketchy, and a lot can go wrong with calorimetry. It reminds me a little
of
> the techniques Mills used years ago at Thermacore. They were not bad, but
> the scale was large and the technique was crude, making it difficult to
judge.
>
> I have been staring at the graph in Fig. 9 for some time, which is
> puzzling. Why did they start at two different temperatures? Perhaps there
> is a good reason . . . The second curve, for H2O goes from 23 to 25 deg C.
> It is obviously steeper, and if anything it should flatten out a little as
> the temperature rises, so that does indicate excess heat. But I hope they
> have a lot more data where that came from.

There is an easy explanation,which I had overlooked. The experiment
consists of running a quartz or glass tube through an Evanson Cavity,
waterproofing the assembly, and dunking it in a water bath. Gas still flows
into the tube from the outside and the outflow is into a vacuum pump. There
are lots of heat paths in and out, unlike calorimetry associated with CF
experiments.

A baseline is established by first flowing Kr, which ionizes and produces
heat, but is not a BLP catalyst. This calibrates the system, heating up the
water meanwhile. Then water vapor is admitted, which does undergo a BLP
reaction. There is a short time for the gases to change over, then the
temperature rise continues at a higher slope due to the energy released by
the water vapor reaction.

One could ask for a standard Joule heater, a calibrated resistor, but the
point here is not absolute calorimetry but clear demonstration that with the
same apparatus and nothing changed but the gas mixtures, something
significant happens with water vapor.

No more mysterious than that. Of course extracting excess heat from ionized
water vapor is quite "mysterious" enough. It is a paradigm breaker.

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  8 08:35:33 2002
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Subject: Hysterical machine translation Re: workshop TESMI
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There will be a CF conference in Italy on Dec. 6 - 7. I will post 
information about it here and at LENR-CANR later. Anyway, I just received a 
message about it in Italian, as follows:

>Oggetto: workshop TESMI
>
>Cari colleghi, finalmente siamo riusciti ad organizzare un incontro 
>scientifico sugli aspetti speriemtali dei metalli caricati con idrogeno. 
>Tutte le informazioni le troverete nel file allegato e per quelle mancanti 
>potete contattare il sottoscritto o la segreteria scientifica.

The machine translation utility here:

http://babel.altavista.com/tr

rendered this as:

"Beloveds connect, finally are resolutions to organize a scientific 
encounter on the speriemtali aspects of the metals load to you with 
hydrogen. All the information you will find to them in the rows attached 
and for those lacking you can contact the undersigned or the scientific 
secretariat."

That is almost as bad as their Japanese - English translations.

Here is a sentence from http://www.frascati.enea.it/nhe/. Babblefish did 
better, mainly because it threw in the towel and did not try to translate 
"calorimetric" or "electrolytic."

"misure calorimetriche per verificare la produzione di eccesso di calore in 
celle elettrolitiche in acqua "pesante" (D2O) con catodi di Palladio"

"calorimetriche measures in order to verify the production of excess of 
heat in elettrolitiche cells in "heavy" water (D2O) with Palladium cathodes."

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  8 10:40:17 2002
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Subject: Workshop TESMI
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The Italians sent me an announcement in Italian, in an image file. I have 
noticed that several of their web sites are image files instead of text. 
Anyway, See:

http://lenr-canr.org/Features.htm#WorkshopTESMI

http://lenr-canr.org/TESMI.htm


Announcement

Workshop TESMI ­ Tecniche ed Esperimenti in Sistemi Metallo-Idrogeno

Lecce, Italy, December 6 ­ 2, 2002

Twenty researchers are expected to attend from the INFN; ENEA; Pirelli; ST 
Semiconductors; Univ. Bologna, Siena, Cagliari, Lecce and elsewhere.

See attached announcement (in Italian).

Local organizer:
Prof. Vincenzo Nassisi
Dipartimento di Fisica
Università di Lecce
Via per Arnesano C.P. 193
73100 LECCE-Italy
Tel. +39 0832 320495/482
Fax +39 0832 320484/505
Email: vincenzo.nassisi le.infn.it
http://www.fisica.unile.it/EleApp/


- Jed 


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Subject: Re: Line width:  confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
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Mike Carrell wrote:

>The scale is so large that the crudenss of the method is not an issue.

That's what Stringham thought, but he was wrong.

On the calorimetry side, they claim 1 watt accuracy, which is a modest & 
believable. They seem to be getting 16 ~ 22 watts excess. That is a large 
enough multiple to give confidence in the output. Input power is the only 
open question.


>You are unfamiliar with microwave technology. The Evanson cavity and the 
>connecting cable form a resonant circuit with the generator inside the 
>box. The generator frequency is fixed. The cavity must be "tuned" for 
>optimum power transfer, but this is not always possible, so some of the 
>energy put out is "reflected" back into the generator. It is equivalent to 
>"reactive power" in utility systems.

It sounds like the power factor correction with an AC motor. I hope they 
measure it right.

Does anyone know how this is measured? How difficult is it? Can the 
fraction of reflected power be influenced by the choice of gas in the 
reaction chamber?

For this to be a mistake, they would inputting 85 watts electricity, 55 W 
are reflected back, but they think 77 W is coming back instead. (See the 
numbers at the end of this message.)

It does not matter how many different calorimeter types they use (Seebeck, 
flow, a bomb calorimeter). If every test configuration depends on the same 
input correction, using the same instrument, they have effectively done 
only one kind of calorimetry. They are in the same position as Mizuno with 
glow discharge. All methods of measuring output agree, but the only likely 
source of error is on the input side anyway. Mizuno spent ~$16,000 for a 
meter, which works right as far as anyone can tell.


>Far more significant physically is the Balmer line broadening and
>Mills has taken pains to demonstrated that the effect is real and not an
>artifact.

I cannot judge that. John Schnurer seems to think there may be room for 
error there. Perhaps he needs to look at it more closely.

The gadget need not be self sustaining to prove that it works, but some 
aspects of the calorimetry should make people nervous, even though 22 watts 
excess seems huge. It is not so huge when you start to talk about an open 
system with gas flowing through and "lots of heat paths in and out."

This paper, mentioned by Carrell:

http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/technical/WaterBathThermCalor.pdf

. . . describes more or less conventional calorimetry with a calibration by 
joule heater in 45 liters (!) of distilled water. It says:

"The heat capacity was determined for several input powers, 30, 40, and 50 
W ± 0.01 W, and was found to be independent of input power over this power 
range within ± 0.05%." (p. 6)

±0.01 W input power I can believe, but ±0.05% is ridiculous, even for a 
calibration with a joule heater. That would make it better than McKubre's 
calorimeter, which is rated at ±0.1 (ICCF-2, p. 442). On the same page they 
claim the accuracy with the live plasma gadget is 1%. The excess is roughly 
20 to 24% of total input power (forward and reactive), about the same as 
McKubre on a usual day when excess was being generated. Power levels are 
about an order of magnitude greater: Mills, 85 watts in, 107 out (p. 3, 
Fig. 11); McKubre, 10 watts in, 11 or 12 watts out (p. 440, 441).

There is not much discussion of the calorimetry in the Mills paper. Fig. 10 
shows a highly massaged heating slope. It takes 100 minutes for the water 
to heat up 1 deg. That's slow! But the speed does not matter, because they 
compute heat output from the slope, not the final, steady state 
temperature. After 120 minutes it reaches a final temperature and the 
experiment has to stop. Fig. 11 shows a comparison of Kr (control) and 
H2+He gas (a mixture), similar to the Marchese graph, but the excess looks 
more dramatic:

"The microwave input power was determined to be 8.1 ± 1 W. A 
helium-hydrogen (90/10%) mixture was run at identical microwave input power 
readings as the control, and the excess power was determined to be 21.9 ± 1 
W from the T (t) response."

If the 8.1 W is right, and it isn't accidentally 30.0 W forward, it is 
remarkable.  This paper does not describe input power measurement.

Perhaps they should dunk the whole power supply in the bath too. It can 
handle 85 watts.


I will never understand the psychology or the business strategy of these 
people! I hope I live to see them succeed despite my doubts, but it seems 
insane to me, and unethical, and repulsive. Suppose I had a gadget like 
this, and I was convinced it was outputting 20 watt excess -- even with 85 
watts input. I would push aside the "forward" and "reflected" power issue 
by immersing the whole kit-and-caboodle. Then I would manufacture 100,000 
of things and sell them at cost or give them away, and convince every 
person on earth it is real. A few years later I would be richer than Bill 
Gates and Saddam Hussein combined, and the only person in history to win 
three Nobel prizes in one year. What more can a person want? Why piddle 
around with a 2-bit $75,000 NASA study? Who gives a damn about spectral 
lines?!? Demonstrate 20 watts of useful power and Wall Street would give 
you a $1 billion for 1%. You would have 50,000 research projects underway 
simultaneously at every major corporation and university on earth.

I expect Mills does not want that -- or he thinks he does not. The leading 
role in the research would be snatched out of his hands. He would be left 
behind, just as the Wright brothers were after they went public in 1908, 
and Shockley was after 1958. Pioneers seldom bring discoveries to fruition. 
They have the wrong temperament. Many CF researchers and OU fringe 
researchers want more than anything to dominate the research themselves, 
even if it means they will go to their graves without recognition and the 
discovery will be lost.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  8 13:52:36 2002
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Line width:  confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
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--- Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know how this is measured? How difficult is it? Can the 
> fraction of reflected power be influenced by the choice of gas in the 
> reaction chamber?
> 

There are several measurement methods.  All of them require some good
math after the measurement to determine the actual reflected power 'along
a given vector'.  Also this is altered by the shape of the reflecting
surface.  Iregular shapes can scatter or concentrate reflected energy. 
(like pointing a LASER at a wad of foil.)  one must there be sure the
target surface is reular or measure all of the reflected energy.   It is
very much like LASER lite.    

Also if the medium is water the water must be absolutely pure.  ANY
inpurities will allow microwave adsorption. 

It is possible that this process was not documented in the presentation
because it can be quite complex.

Is there evidance of fusion products in the exaust?   

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: WHAT'S  NEW    Friday, 08 Nov 02
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 14:52:13 -0500
From: "What's New" <opa aps.org>
Reply-To: opa aps.org
To: "What's New" <whatsnew lists.apsmsgs.org>

WHAT'S  NEW      Robert L. Park      Friday, 08 Nov 02      Washington,
DC

1.  CLIMATE CHANGE: ABOUT THAT BEACH-FRONT PROPERTY YOU BOUGHT... 
  Unlike previous climate talks, the talks in New Delhi, which ended
last
Friday,
addressed ways of coping with a warmer world in addition to emission
controls (WN 25
Oct 02).  Both are needed.  No matter what we do to limit emissions,
climate change
models predict continued warming for maybe 100 years from gases we've
already put in
the atmosphere.  So what became of the Climate Change Vulnerability and
Resilience
Program, introduced by Rep. J.C. Watts, Jr.  (WN 14 Jun 02)?   It had
seemed like a
sure thing: the Oklahoma congressman was chair of the powerful House
Republican
Conference, and because the bill didn't call for increased regulation,
it
attracted industry
backers.  But a month later, Watts announced he was not running for
reelection.  His
phone stopped ringing, and his bill disappeared from the agenda. 
Emissions must
eventually be cut, of course, and the Bush Administration is pursuing a
program of
"voluntary reductions" by industry.  But meanwhile, you might want to
think about
moving the sump pump from the basement to the first floor.  

2.  IRRADIATED MEAT: RISK PERCEPTION AND THE AMERICAN HAMBURGER.
Several grocery chains are gambling that consumers, spooked by recent
outbreaks of
illness and death from E.coli and listeria bacteria, may at last be
ready
to try irradiated
ground beef.  Past attempts to introduce consumers to irradiated foods
fell victim to the
exaggerated fear of anything "atomic," but the two largest meat recalls
in
history may
have changed that.  The supermarket experiment will test whether the
very
real risk of
bacterial contamination can overcome the public's irrational fear of
radiation.

3.  NASA: BOOK WILL CLAIM AMERICAN ASTRONAUTS LANDED ON THE 
MOON.  While half the population is convinced Earth is being visited by
space aliens
who have mastered faster-than light travel, others are equally convinced
that we
humans never even made it as far as the moon.  The problem, if it is a
problem, got a
lot worse after the Fox television network aired "Conspiracy Theory: Did
We Land on
the Moon?" last year.  Maybe it was put together by the same people who
fabricated
"Alien Autopsy" (WN 11 Dec 98).  NASA revealed its incredibly thin skin,
hiring
aeronautics engineer James Oberg to write a monograph that will say we
really did land
on the moon.  Well that should settle it.  What a headline it will make:
"NASA Finds
Astronauts Landed on the Moon in 1969." 

4. THE SNIPERS: THE THIN VENEER OF CIVILIZATION.  Six states and the
District
of Columbia have been locked in an appalling struggle over which would
get
to carry out
the executions.  The referee was Attorney General John Ashcroft. 
Virginia
won the
honor hands down. Not only has Virginia conducted more executions than
any
other
state except Texas, it has an impressive record of trying teenagers as
adults.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY.  
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or 
the American Physical Society, but they should be.
---
Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN.
You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: <aki ix.netcom.com>
To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail to:
<leave-whatsnew-27231J lists.apsmsgs.org>
To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: <join-whatsnew lists.apsmsgs.org>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  8 14:25:11 2002
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Subject: LENR-CANR.org stats
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LENR-CANR was forced to change names and ISPs three times, wandering around 
the Internet like the Flying Dutchman. It has now settled in Earthlink for 
a month. Between Oct. 8, 2002 and Sept. 7, 2002 it received:

2,105 visits, 70 per day average
2,488 Acrobat files were downloaded from the library
687 MB of data were transferred

The weekly total of papers downloaded has been trending upward from ~400 
the first two weeks, 566 last week, to 696 over the past 7 days (Friday 
through Thursday). There are more papers to choose from than there were 
initially.

In most other fields these numbers would be considered modest, but in cold 
fusion I doubt this many papers have been distributed over the past six 
years. I expect many of the copies people have downloaded are being passed 
around. I hope that researchers continue to send me papers, photographs and 
other material, so that we can attract more readers.

There are now over 90 papers in the library. Two or three are negative, 
written by well-known flakes. A few others are neutral. We welcome all 
contributions but I doubt the "skeptics" have anything more to say. Even on 
sci.physics.fusion they are absent these days. They have either lost 
interest or dropped dead. Either development is welcome. Cold fusion is not 
likely to make progress until the irrational, hysterical opposition to it 
dissipates.

For years I have urged people to read the literature. Unfortunately, many 
people have not been able to read it, because the ICCF proceedings are out 
of print and journal papers are difficult to get. I am pleased that I 
finally have the opportunity to help bring the literature to the readers. I 
have often urged the "skeptics" to read the literature, but of course they 
never did and they never will. Several people, including me, have literally 
placed papers in Robert Parks' hands, but he refuses to take them. As 
Schiller said, "Against stupidity the Gods themselves contend in vain."

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  8 15:21:51 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Line width:  confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 10:17:20 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Mike Carrell's message of Fri, 8 Nov 2002 09:15:26 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]
>No more mysterious than that. Of course extracting excess heat from ionized
>water vapor is quite "mysterious" enough. It is a paradigm breaker.
>
>Mike Carrell
>
Note that Stanley Meyer was also using water vapour and microwaves.
He just didn't know where the energy was coming from.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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Jed:

Congratulations on your successful efforts with 
<http://www.lenr-canr.org/>www.lenr-canr.org .   The Internet is an 
amazingly powerful tool which can be used to accomplish great and highly 
leveraged achievements.  At present, a single person now has the same 
capacity to reach what previously only the largest multinational media 
corporations could.  THIS is power!   I am hopeful that your site, as well 
as mine at 
<http://www.coldfusioninfo.com/>www.coldfusioninfo.<http://www.coldfusioninfo.com/>com, 
will facilitate broad dissemination of this vital information and attract 
the people and resources necessary to expedite the energy revolution.


Best Regards,

Steve Krivit
--=====================_27589942==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
Jed:<br><br>
Congratulations on your successful efforts with
<a href="http://www.lenr-canr.org/">www.lenr-canr.org</a> .&nbsp;&nbsp;
The Internet is an amazingly powerful tool which can be used to
accomplish great and highly leveraged achievements.&nbsp; At present, a
single person now has the same capacity to reach what previously only the
largest multinational media corporations could.&nbsp; THIS is
power!&nbsp;&nbsp; I am hopeful that your site, as well as mine at
<a href="http://www.coldfusioninfo.com/">www.coldfusioninfo.</a><a href="http://www.coldfusioninfo.com/">com</a>,&nbsp;
will facilitate broad dissemination of this vital information and attract
the people and resources necessary to expedite the energy
revolution.<br><br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Best Regards,<br><br>
Steve Krivit</html>

--=====================_27589942==.ALT--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  8 18:05:29 2002
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Subject: Re: Line width:  confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 20:55:14 -0800
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Jed wrote:

> Mike Carrell wrote:
>
> >The scale is so large that the crudenss of the method is not an issue.
>
> That's what Stringham thought, but he was wrong.

With due credit to Stringham, he is not Mills & Co.
>
> On the calorimetry side, they claim 1 watt accuracy, which is a modest &
> believable. They seem to be getting 16 ~ 22 watts excess. That is a large
> enough multiple to give confidence in the output. Input power is the only
> open question.
>
>
> >You are unfamiliar with microwave technology. The Evanson cavity and the
> >connecting cable form a resonant circuit with the generator inside the
> >box. The generator frequency is fixed. The cavity must be "tuned" for
> >optimum power transfer, but this is not always possible, so some of the
> >energy put out is "reflected" back into the generator. It is equivalent
to
> >"reactive power" in utility systems.
>
> It sounds like the power factor correction with an AC motor. I hope they
> measure it right.

Jed is a great advocate of using standard laboratory equipment, which is
exactly what BLP is doing. They are not wasting a penny on non-standard
stuff if they can help it, and so far as I can tell, what they buy is first
class. The Evanson cavity and the associated microwave generator are
standard lab stuff and the measurement of direct and reflected power is
built into the instrument and displayed on meters on the front the of the
box. The "reflected power" is in fact reactive, out-of-phase power,
corresponding to power factor in a motor, etc.
>
> Does anyone know how this is measured? How difficult is it? Can the
> fraction of reflected power be influenced by the choice of gas in the
> reaction chamber?

See above. The absorbed power might well be a function of the gas in the
cell as well as other factors. That is why you subtract reflected power
from output power. The resistance of the wire in the cable, the cable's
dissipation, resistance of the metal in the cavity walls, presence of
anything dissipative of microwave energy in the field of the device, all
will show up as absorbed power not delivered to the gas in question. The
apparatus was initially designed just as "lamp" -- an exciter of ionizable
gases so that their emission spectrum could be read. It was not intended as
an element in a calorimetry experiment, so Mills is doing the best he can.
>
> For this to be a mistake, they would inputting 85 watts electricity, 55 W
> are reflected back, but they think 77 W is coming back instead. (See the
> numbers at the end of this message.)
>
> It does not matter how many different calorimeter types they use (Seebeck,
> flow, a bomb calorimeter). If every test configuration depends on the same
> input correction, using the same instrument, they have effectively done
> only one kind of calorimetry. They are in the same position as Mizuno with
> glow discharge. All methods of measuring output agree, but the only likely
> source of error is on the input side anyway. Mizuno spent ~$16,000 for a
> meter, which works right as far as anyone can tell.

Only if you focus only on what you understand, which is calorimetry. Jed is
saying that he suspects the measurement of microwave excitation power, which
he does not understand, therefore all measurements which use this instrument
are suspect. He is not seeing the presence of controls in every experiment
performed that I have cited.
>
> >Far more significant physically is the Balmer line broadening and
> >Mills has taken pains to demonstrated that the effect is real and not an
> >artifact.
>
> I cannot judge that. John Schnurer seems to think there may be room for
> error there. Perhaps he needs to look at it more closely.

Jed has not been paying close enough attention to what John said. I will
quote from some sidebar correspondence:
---------------------------------
MC to JS:

And with due respect to John's acumen, and to forestall a rain of quibbles
about Mills' Hydrogen Blamer line width observations, one should look at the
whole context of Mills' voluminous papers. Therein you will find papers
devoted to possible mechanisms of line width broadening, including the Stark
effect, and various methods of excitation, including capacitative coupling,
inductive coupling, RF coupling and thermal excitation. The broadening is
still there, systematically ruling out other known causes of line
broadening, leaving only Doppler shift from very hot atoms.

You will have to do some honest homework, guys, before throwing darts at
this work. Mills has been thorough. Homework means actually reading the
papers and understanding what was done.

JS to MC:

Dear Mike,

I only brought up the point because I support what you are
saying.... one has to have the whole story to make a call.

JH
----------------------------------

>
> The gadget need not be self sustaining to prove that it works, but some
> aspects of the calorimetry should make people nervous, even though 22
watts
> excess seems huge. It is not so huge when you start to talk about an open
> system with gas flowing through and "lots of heat paths in and out."
>
> This paper, mentioned by Carrell:
>
> http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/technical/WaterBathThermCalor.pdf
>
> . . . describes more or less conventional calorimetry with a calibration
by
> joule heater in 45 liters (!) of distilled water. It says:
>
> "The heat capacity was determined for several input powers, 30, 40, and 50
> W ± 0.01 W, and was found to be independent of input power over this power
> range within ± 0.05%." (p. 6)
>
> ±0.01 W input power I can believe, but ±0.05% is ridiculous, even for a
> calibration with a joule heater. That would make it better than McKubre's
> calorimeter, which is rated at ±0.1 (ICCF-2, p. 442). On the same page
they
> claim the accuracy with the live plasma gadget is 1%. The excess is
roughly
> 20 to 24% of total input power (forward and reactive), about the same as
> McKubre on a usual day when excess was being generated. Power levels are
> about an order of magnitude greater: Mills, 85 watts in, 107 out (p. 3,
> Fig. 11); McKubre, 10 watts in, 11 or 12 watts out (p. 440, 441).
>
> There is not much discussion of the calorimetry in the Mills paper. Fig.
10
> shows a highly massaged heating slope. It takes 100 minutes for the water
> to heat up 1 deg. That's slow! But the speed does not matter, because they
> compute heat output from the slope, not the final, steady state
> temperature. After 120 minutes it reaches a final temperature and the
> experiment has to stop. Fig. 11 shows a comparison of Kr (control) and
> H2+He gas (a mixture), similar to the Marchese graph, but the excess looks
> more dramatic:
>
> "The microwave input power was determined to be 8.1 ± 1 W. A
> helium-hydrogen (90/10%) mixture was run at identical microwave input
power
> readings as the control, and the excess power was determined to be 21.9 ±
1
> W from the T (t) response."
>
> If the 8.1 W is right, and it isn't accidentally 30.0 W forward, it is
> remarkable.  This paper does not describe input power measurement.

Input power to the generator is irrelevant. The microwave generator is
obviously a piece of lab gear and what matters is the indications of the
output meters. Jed's "accidentally 30.0 W forward" is irrelevant. He is
sounding like a skeptic, which is what he is so far as Mills is concerned.
>
> Perhaps they should dunk the whole power supply in the bath too. It can
> handle 85 watts.

And why in the world would they do that? What does that prove? Jed is
continuing to demonstrate that he does not understand what Mills is doing,
which has been his position all along.
>
> I will never understand the psychology or the business strategy of these
> people! I hope I live to see them succeed despite my doubts, but it seems
> insane to me, and unethical, and repulsive.

This shows where Jed stands so far as objective evaluation and looking at
the whole picture is concerned.

<snip usual rhetoric>

 >Why piddle  around with a 2-bit $75,000 NASA study?

What Jed has missed is that the study was solicited by Rowan University and
awarded to Rowan. BLP provided facilities and advice in the line of their
policy of soliciting partnerships. I assume that Rowan paid BLP a fee for
consulting services and use of facilities. Like the $6000 initially awarded
to the Manhattan Project, I could see significant investment by NASA in BLP
technology.

>Who gives a damn about spectral
> lines?!? Demonstrate 20 watts of useful power and Wall Street would give
> you a $1 billion for 1%. You would have 50,000 research projects underway
> simultaneously at every major corporation and university on earth.

Mills welcomes collaborators and has hired a guy to look for partners. The
business plan, available on the website, shows concepts for water heaters of
all scales, micropower generation, etc. He is looking for $100 million to
support an aggressive development and advertising campaign for BLP "Greater
Than Fire" (TM). He has not been shy about publication or presentations,
including the ACS and EPA.

What Jed's rhetoric missies is the inertia of the marketplace. BLP heaters
will have low installation costs and very low or no fuel costs. But it's new
technology and many customers will be more concerned about support,
reliability, features and name brand than some savings on a fuel bill. A
major name brand partner can supply all this, not a card table on the
sidewalk. Mills is positioned as a license laboratory, not a development
and production shop. He would go broke quick.

<snip more of Jed's rhetoric>

 With LENR it is now only slowly becoming apparent that much of the previous
work was focused on the wrong paradigm but the right one hasn't been found,
the one that enables manufacture of reliable active cathodes. Until that
happens you lose money on every one but make it up in volume. Mills'
demonstrations are very impressive, but the bridge to an interface with the
commercial world is as yet very shaky. One doesn't understand this until the
phenomenon and its characteristics are understood. Mills is not telling all
he knows.

What Jed has pointedly overlooked in the papers I have cited is the presence
of controls in every experiment whether calorimetry is the issue or not.
Only very specific elements are BLP catalysts. Chemically similar elements
that don't meet the BLP criteria don't react. So for example an experiment
using microwave excitation is run with H alone, He alone, and then with H-He
and the energy release is spectacular. Or the experiment might be run with H
and Kr, not a catalyst, and nothing happens. This is black/white, on/off can
cannot be ignored.

Since Jed has not, I will quote here numbers from the H-He experiment. A gas
mixture 98% He and 2% h is flowed through a quartz tube passing through the
Evanson cavity. A thermocouple is mounted coaxially with the quartz tube in
the middle of the cavity. With He only the microwave power is 60 watts the
probe measures a rise to 200 C after power on in about 90 sec. With the H-He
mixture and 30 watts applied, the thermocouple rises to 900 C in the same
interval. Measurement of the decay rate of the thermocouple temperature with
He only and H-He gives a measure of the heat capacity of the system. The
power output was calculated as 300 W with an excitation power of 30 W. The
heat released was 160 times that which would be obtained by burning the
amount of hydrogen used. The power density was calculated at 30 MW per cubic
meter. The microwave power was on for only 90 seconds to prevent the quartz
tube from melting.

The is a house-burning-down effect. You can't miss it. In terms of overall
energy balance, the energy to produce the hydrogen gas and helium gas in lab
tanks was not included, nor the power to run the microwave generator, nor
the turbomolecular pump and assorted instruments. "Closing the loop" so all
the support facilities are operated by generated energy with water as fuel
is a bit far off at the moment, but not impossible. No householder or
partner is going to pony up money until solutions to some of the problems
are visible.

A continuous flow of H and He were used in the lab tests to maintain
standard conditions. Obviously this isn't viable for many products. He is a
somewhat rare gas, but it is a catalyst, not consumed in principle. H is the
fuel and has to be supplied as conversions to hydrinos proceeds. Exactly
what happens and how you control it is very much BLP's proprietary
information and I'm not sure how much of it they have under control yet.
With water vapor as fuel, the situation changes considerably. But there are
engineering problems there as well.

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov  8 18:16:45 2002
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Subject: Re: Line width:  confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
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Charles Ford wrote:

> --- Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone know how this is measured? How difficult is it? Can the
> > fraction of reflected power be influenced by the choice of gas in the
> > reaction chamber?
> >
>
> There are several measurement methods.  All of them require some good
> math after the measurement to determine the actual reflected power 'along
> a given vector'.  Also this is altered by the shape of the reflecting
> surface.  Iregular shapes can scatter or concentrate reflected energy.
> (like pointing a LASER at a wad of foil.)  one must there be sure the
> target surface is reular or measure all of the reflected energy.   It is
> very much like LASER lite.
>
> Also if the medium is water the water must be absolutely pure.  ANY
> inpurities will allow microwave adsorption.
>
> It is possible that this process was not documented in the presentation
> because it can be quite complex.

All this is very much off the track. As I have explained in other posts, the
Evanson cavity and the associated lab equipment are standard stuff for the
purpose at hand and the forward and reflected power are indicated by meters
on the front panel. End of story. In a theoretical and general sense one can
get very involved with EM propagation and interfaces, but such are totally
irrelevant to the experiments at hand.
>
> Is there evidance of fusion products in the exaust?

No, no, no. The BLP reaction is a form of chemistry, involving electrons in
orbits. It is not and never was claimed to be a nuclear process. The energy
densities are above the normal chemical realm but less than the nuclear
realm.

Mike Carrell

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Subject: Re: Line width:  confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
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Robin wrote:
<snip>


> Hi,
> [snip]
> >No more mysterious than that. Of course extracting excess heat from
ionized
> >water vapor is quite "mysterious" enough. It is a paradigm breaker.
> >
> >Mike Carrell
> >
> Note that Stanley Meyer was also using water vapour and microwaves.
> He just didn't know where the energy was coming from.

Good point. To this I will add the Graneau's remarkable experiments with
underwater arcs, which produce substantial anomalous energy. I have alerted
Mills to the Graneau's work and Peter Graneau to Mills' work.

Underwater arcs have attracted the attention of a number of experimenters.

Regards,
Mike Carrell

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Subject: How to Program Photons with the Mind & with Scalar Radio Waves!
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How to Program Photons with the Mind & with Scalar Radio Waves!

A photon which is a wave of light is composed of a wave of electrons.  Each 
potential electron position in the wave may be programed to be in a certain 
position on the wave, and in a certain spin state up or down to represent 
information states true or false and 1 or 0 in binary computer language or 
quantum computer.   The human mind uses a small set of the light frequencies 
called the aura and spirit to store information in neural networks of neurons 
in the brain, fibers, liquids, and genes of the body.  And these patterns of 
light frequencies stored in the human body, represent the beliefs that each 
person and group of person holds, to organize photons and electrons around 
them to form their body and environment. 

With meditation any person can focus on the electrons and photons around 
their body, local, and global environment, to cause the electrons and 
photons, to organize themselves into a small quantum computer using photon 
waves for memory and photon states for a processor with a programed photon 
pattern similar to the thought patterns in the mind that matches the 
meditational belief patterns to run a small energy to matter transfer and 
manipulation photonic device.   This small spiritual and mental meditational 
channeling of a few million photons from energy around the body, to make a 
photonic computer, program and energy to matter transfer device may appear 
invisible as dark super light or as a small burst of light or misty infrared 
light cloud which can barely be seen or heard by the human eye and mind.   

An example of a meditational session to make the above photon computer and 
energy transfer device levitate an object or cause the clouds to move or rain 
may be as follows:

A person sits in a meditational position or moves in symmetric and geometric 
Tai Chi movements in a comfortable pattern that allows the photon energies 
around the persons body to flow freely and connect with the energies of the 
mind and spirit.   The person then gradually focuses the mind and spirit, to 
relax, and think about geometric forms in color in the mind to begin to 
collect photons around them into organized patterns sometimes called "Chi" in 
martial arts.  Then the person may fine tune the image of the rough geometric 
shapes in the mind, into detailed ideas and images of objects around them in 
their environment, such as a piece of wood or a cloud in the sky.   Then the 
person meditates or channels photons to connect their mind to the piece of 
wood or cloud with a photonic wave communication path.  Then the person may 
focus on the resonant frequencies of a piece of wood or cloud, and organize 
the photons in the air to create a sound pattern or resonant pattern similar 
to wind that matches the cloud or stick center of gravity, to cancel out the 
natural center gravity, to cause the stick to levitate or the cloud to move 
in a new direction.   Also the person may think about the frequencies and 
energy patterns that may cause the cloud to rain or create lightening, which 
are around 500Khz, and communicate with photons to organize the photons 
around the cloud to rain make lightening.  Depending on the skills of person, 
it may take longer than others to focus and collect enough photons to channel 
them into a photonic computer, communication wave, and energy manipulation 
pattern to change an object in the environment. 

All of the above natural spiritual photonic programs, can also be captured, 
and simulated with scalar interferometric radio or cellular waves from 
satellites, and Gwen radio towers, and programed with computers instead of 
the human mind to achieve the above same effects of levitating a piece of 
wood or causing the clouds to rain. 
It is possible for the scalar cellular phone waves used in ordinary cellular 
phones, and in Echelon surveillance programs, to create programed photonic 
holographs around any object or person in an environment, to capture or jam 
the natural spiritual photonic beliefs and programmed patterns of any object 
or person, and change them to match an artificial object or image of that 
person in a computer database, to control the persons thoughts, beliefs, and 
cellular growth with subliminal sound waves, and cellular phone waves used in 
ordinary TV media.

A person may have to imagine in their mind a force field around their body, 
to program the photons around their body, to jam the artificial cellular 
phone waves from mind control projects, Gwen submarine radio towers, and 
Echelon surveillance satellites. I myself have a photonic program that I 
meditate on daily to create several natural photonic force fields around my 
body.  One force field captures all incoming harmful photons like an energy 
well and channels them to power and create the other force fields to filter 
out the harmful photons that do not match my belief patterns of my body, 
spirit, and environment.  

Then I also imagine in my mind a photonic geometric grid around my body in 
the colors and detailed images, which matches the true form of my body and 
spirit to encourage the photonic energies, to highlight the proper genetic 
alleles in each cell and gene, to form the shape of the cell growth.  I also 
imagine photonic force field grids around may home, city, state, nation, 
planet, solar system, and universe, through all possible timelines.   I have 
been doing these above meditational photonic programs for about 2 years now.  
I have been able to jam out some of the Echelon surveillance mind control 
cellular radio waves around my body, but not most of them.  It may take up to 
10 years of mediation to even jam out 30 to 50 percent of the mind control 
cellular radio waves, which is not enough to counter the other 50 percent of 
the mind control radio waves, which works 24 hours a day, to change the 
beliefs and forms of the body and local environment.   Every person may need 
to have their own small portable mechanical scalar wave sensor, power source, 
computer, and generator, to generate a force field strong enough to block out 
or filter out all echelon satellite surveillance and Gwen tower cellular 
radio waves.  

Even if the all of the electromagnetic devices on Earth are shut down due to 
the photon belt, this may not stop the mind control projects and echelon 
surveillance satellites from targeting citizens with holograph and scalar 
waves, since these devices may use positive monopole scalar electronics which 
have been hardened to radiation such as photons.  The beliefs of all of the 
citizens on Earth, form a natural neural network, which can also program 
photons naturally, to counter the mind control projects, and more photons may 
enhance the natural beliefs to counter mind control projects even more so.  
However, many of the citizens on Earth may all be divided and fighting over 
their own personal and often selfish clannish or cultural goals, which then 
may cancel each other out.   And this is why many of the mind control 
projects on Earth encourage conflicts between genders, races, religious and 
political beliefs, and cultures, to keep the belief patterns of Earth 
divided, so that they cannot counter the mind control projects belief 
patterns in the popular media, and in the subliminal radio waves messages 
from the Echelon satellites and Gwen radio towers. 

If certain individuals such as celebrities, business men, and world leaders 
become popular and may unit many people into a fashion or movement, that 
could counter the mind control projects media, then those individuals may be 
repressed by the mind control projects even more so, by means of false 
negative double speak media, and pitting everyone against that person which 
happens to many of our very successful world leaders today and historical 
icons in the Past, in the popular media.

In most of my emails and businesses I have been encouraging the use of 
science and technology to defend the powerless or the ordinary citizen 
against the powerful or government and underworld organizations.  I still 
believe that the ordinary citizen needs technology, to defend themselves from 
the government and secret underworld organizations which will always have 
technology.  Most of the popular religious trends encourage citizens to give 
up technology, and let a belief such a God or a photon belt, to save them 
from the corrupt governments and secret societies.  And I have explained 
above the photon belt may not weaken the governments or secret societies use 
of technology but actually strengthen it, since primarily the ordinary 
citizen will lose their use of technology to defend themselves from the 
government, and underworld. Also the ordinary citizen will lose their basic 
legal rights, since if the photon belt jams electrical devices, then the 
governments may declare martial law and a state of emergency.  

I have been advocating with my companies, the knowledge and means of 
developing new photonic energy sources, devices and force fields for each 
citizen and town, which the governments already have.  And I have been 
advocating political trends which allow all citizens from all cultures to 
communicate and make agreements with E.T's to allow them to relocate to other 
planets physically and spiritually, if they want to based on their spiritual 
goals.  Most governments do not want citizens to have the above spiritual 
freedoms and technologies, and I have also been advocating that the 
government should change their politics to defend local citizens rather than 
to repress citizens, and that the government should become republican to 
decentralize and minimize the government.  I am just one citizen like 
everyone else, and any one can also repress me or take over my companies as 
well. I have filed cases in federal court posted at at <A HREF="http://www.rhfweb.com/nsagovcase.html">Federal Case to be 
filed in Federal Court in November, 2002</A> and at   <A HREF="http://www.rhfweb.com/nsagovcase.html">
http://www.rhfweb.com/nsagovcase.html</A>  and placed safeguards into my company 
trust statements posted at [<A HREF="http://www.rhfweb.com/erules.html">Company quality and ethical procedureal rules</A>] 
and at 
<A HREF="http://www.rhfweb.com/erules.html">http://www.rhfweb.com/erules.html</A>  to prevent takeovers and infiltration, but 
this may not be enough.  If I cannot achieve the above goals then each 
citizens who believes in the goals, must also work to achieve them as I have 
explained in these emails.

If the photon belt occurs in 10 to 20 years, then we may have time to develop 
the above technologies and political goals.  Also if friendly E.T.'s can be 
contacted they may be able to give us, or ordinary citizens on Earth, the 
above technologies, political avenues, and information very quickly, to 
allows us to achieve similar goals  as I have mentioned above, for all 
cultures on Earth.


Respectfully,

Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A>
Thomas D. Clark
tom rhfweb.com
<A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>

--part1_1a0.b8aef92.2afe8ada_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">How to Program Photons with the Mind &amp; with Scalar Radio Waves!<BR>
<BR>
A photon which is a wave of light is composed of a wave of electrons.&nbsp; Each potential electron position in the wave may be programed to be in a certain position on the wave, and in a certain spin state up or down to represent information states true or false and 1 or 0 in binary computer language or quantum computer.&nbsp;&nbsp; The human mind uses a small set of the light frequencies called the aura and spirit to store information in neural networks of neurons in the brain, fibers, liquids, and genes of the body.&nbsp; And these patterns of light frequencies stored in the human body, represent the beliefs that each person and group of person holds, to organize photons and electrons around them to form their body and environment. <BR>
<BR>
With meditation any person can focus on the electrons and photons around their body, local, and global environment, to cause the electrons and photons, to organize themselves into a small quantum computer using photon waves for memory and photon states for a processor with a programed photon pattern similar to the thought patterns in the mind that matches the meditational belief patterns to run a small energy to matter transfer and manipulation photonic device.&nbsp;&nbsp; This small spiritual and mental meditational channeling of a few million photons from energy around the body, to make a photonic computer, program and energy to matter transfer device may appear invisible as dark super light or as a small burst of light or misty infrared light cloud which can barely be seen or heard by the human eye and mind.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
An example of a meditational session to make the above photon computer and energy transfer device levitate an object or cause the clouds to move or rain may be as follows:<BR>
<BR>
A person sits in a meditational position or moves in symmetric and geometric Tai Chi movements in a comfortable pattern that allows the photon energies around the persons body to flow freely and connect with the energies of the mind and spirit.&nbsp;&nbsp; The person then gradually focuses the mind and spirit, to relax, and think about geometric forms in color in the mind to begin to collect photons around them into organized patterns sometimes called "Chi" in martial arts.&nbsp; Then the person may fine tune the image of the rough geometric shapes in the mind, into detailed ideas and images of objects around them in their environment, such as a piece of wood or a cloud in the sky.&nbsp;&nbsp; Then the person meditates or channels photons to connect their mind to the piece of wood or cloud with a photonic wave communication path.&nbsp; Then the person may focus on the resonant frequencies of a piece of wood or cloud, and organize the photons in the air to create a sound pattern or resonant pattern similar to wind that matches the cloud or stick center of gravity, to cancel out the natural center gravity, to cause the stick to levitate or the cloud to move in a new direction.&nbsp;&nbsp; Also the person may think about the frequencies and energy patterns that may cause the cloud to rain or create lightening, which are around 500Khz, and communicate with photons to organize the photons around the cloud to rain make lightening.&nbsp; Depending on the skills of person, it may take longer than others to focus and collect enough photons to channel them into a photonic computer, communication wave, and energy manipulation pattern to change an object in the environment. <BR>
<BR>
All of the above natural spiritual photonic programs, can also be captured, and simulated with scalar interferometric radio or cellular waves from satellites, and Gwen radio towers, and programed with computers instead of the human mind to achieve the above same effects of levitating a piece of wood or causing the clouds to rain. <BR>
It is possible for the scalar cellular phone waves used in ordinary cellular phones, and in Echelon surveillance programs, to create programed photonic holographs around any object or person in an environment, to capture or jam the natural spiritual photonic beliefs and programmed patterns of any object or person, and change them to match an artificial object or image of that person in a computer database, to control the persons thoughts, beliefs, and cellular growth with subliminal sound waves, and cellular phone waves used in ordinary TV media.<BR>
<BR>
A person may have to imagine in their mind a force field around their body, to program the photons around their body, to jam the artificial cellular phone waves from mind control projects, Gwen submarine radio towers, and Echelon surveillance satellites. I myself have a photonic program that I meditate on daily to create several natural photonic force fields around my body.&nbsp; One force field captures all incoming harmful photons like an energy well and channels them to power and create the other force fields to filter out the harmful photons that do not match my belief patterns of my body, spirit, and environment.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Then I also imagine in my mind a photonic geometric grid around my body in the colors and detailed images, which matches the true form of my body and spirit to encourage the photonic energies, to highlight the proper genetic alleles in each cell and gene, to form the shape of the cell growth.&nbsp; I also imagine photonic force field grids around may home, city, state, nation, planet, solar system, and universe, through all possible timelines.&nbsp;&nbsp; I have been doing these above meditational photonic programs for about 2 years now.&nbsp; I have been able to jam out some of the Echelon surveillance mind control cellular radio waves around my body, but not most of them.&nbsp; It may take up to 10 years of mediation to even jam out 30 to 50 percent of the mind control cellular radio waves, which is not enough to counter the other 50 percent of the mind control radio waves, which works 24 hours a day, to change the beliefs and forms of the body and local environment.&nbsp;&nbsp; Every person may need to have their own small portable mechanical scalar wave sensor, power source, computer, and generator, to generate a force field strong enough to block out or filter out all echelon satellite surveillance and Gwen tower cellular radio waves.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Even if the all of the electromagnetic devices on Earth are shut down due to the photon belt, this may not stop the mind control projects and echelon surveillance satellites from targeting citizens with holograph and scalar waves, since these devices may use positive monopole scalar electronics which have been hardened to radiation such as photons.&nbsp; The beliefs of all of the citizens on Earth, form a natural neural network, which can also program photons naturally, to counter the mind control projects, and more photons may enhance the natural beliefs to counter mind control projects even more so.&nbsp; However, many of the citizens on Earth may all be divided and fighting over their own personal and often selfish clannish or cultural goals, which then may cancel each other out.&nbsp;&nbsp; And this is why many of the mind control projects on Earth encourage conflicts between genders, races, religious and political beliefs, and cultures, to keep the belief patterns of Earth divided, so that they cannot counter the mind control projects belief patterns in the popular media, and in the subliminal radio waves messages from the Echelon satellites and Gwen radio towers. <BR>
<BR>
If certain individuals such as celebrities, business men, and world leaders become popular and may unit many people into a fashion or movement, that could counter the mind control projects media, then those individuals may be repressed by the mind control projects even more so, by means of false negative double speak media, and pitting everyone against that person which happens to many of our very successful world leaders today and historical icons in the Past, in the popular media.<BR>
<BR>
In most of my emails and businesses I have been encouraging the use of science and technology to defend the powerless or the ordinary citizen against the powerful or government and underworld organizations.&nbsp; I still believe that the ordinary citizen needs technology, to defend themselves from the government and secret underworld organizations which will always have technology.&nbsp; Most of the popular religious trends encourage citizens to give up technology, and let a belief such a God or a photon belt, to save them from the corrupt governments and secret societies.&nbsp; And I have explained above the photon belt may not weaken the governments or secret societies use of technology but actually strengthen it, since primarily the ordinary citizen will lose their use of technology to defend themselves from the government, and underworld. Also the ordinary citizen will lose their basic legal rights, since if the photon belt jams electrical devices, then the governments may declare martial law and a state of emergency.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
I have been advocating with my companies, the knowledge and means of developing new photonic energy sources, devices and force fields for each citizen and town, which the governments already have.&nbsp; And I have been advocating political trends which allow all citizens from all cultures to communicate and make agreements with E.T's to allow them to relocate to other planets physically and spiritually, if they want to based on their spiritual goals.&nbsp; Most governments do not want citizens to have the above spiritual freedoms and technologies, and I have also been advocating that the government should change their politics to defend local citizens rather than to repress citizens, and that the government should become republican to decentralize and minimize the government.&nbsp; I am just one citizen like everyone else, and any one can also repress me or take over my companies as well. I have filed cases in federal court posted at at <A HREF="http://www.rhfweb.com/nsagovcase.html">Federal Case to be filed in Federal Court in November, 2002</A> and at&nbsp;&nbsp; <A HREF="http://www.rhfweb.com/nsagovcase.html">http://www.rhfweb.com/nsagovcase.html</A>&nbsp; and placed safeguards into my company trust statements posted at [<A HREF="http://www.rhfweb.com/erules.html">Company quality and ethical procedureal rules</A>] and at 
<A HREF="http://www.rhfweb.com/erules.html">http://www.rhfweb.com/erules.html</A>&nbsp; to prevent takeovers and infiltration, but this may not be enough.&nbsp; If I cannot achieve the above goals then each citizens who believes in the goals, must also work to achieve them as I have explained in these emails.<BR>
<BR>
If the photon belt occurs in 10 to 20 years, then we may have time to develop the above technologies and political goals.&nbsp; Also if friendly E.T.'s can be contacted they may be able to give us, or ordinary citizens on Earth, the above technologies, political avenues, and information very quickly, to allows us to achieve similar goals&nbsp; as I have mentioned above, for all cultures on Earth.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Respectfully,<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, <A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\baron">www.rhfweb.com\baron</A><BR>
Thomas D. Clark<BR>
tom rhfweb.com<BR>
<A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_1a0.b8aef92.2afe8ada_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov  9 08:45:53 2002
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Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 10:45:13 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Line width:  confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
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Robin van Spaandonk posted;

>In reply to  Mike Carrell's message of Fri, 8 Nov 2002 09:15:26 -0800:
>Hi,
>[snip]
>>No more mysterious than that. Of course extracting excess heat from ionized
>>water vapor is quite "mysterious" enough. It is a paradigm breaker.
>>
>>Mike Carrell
>>
>Note that Stanley Meyer was also using water vapour and microwaves.
>He just didn't know where the energy was coming from.

Are you saying that Stan actually produces some surplus energy?

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov  9 09:04:07 2002
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Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 12:01:40 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Line width:  confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
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Mike Carrell wrote:

>The Evanson cavity and the associated microwave generator are
>standard lab stuff and the measurement of direct and reflected power is
>built into the instrument and displayed on meters on the front the of the
>box.

I hope it is working right. I suppose it probably is, since off-the-shelf 
meters used for the intended purpose are seldom wrong to this extent, 
confusing 77 with 55 watts.


>The apparatus was initially designed just as "lamp" -- an exciter of 
>ionizable gases so that their emission spectrum could be read. It was not 
>intended as an element in a calorimetry experiment, so Mills is doing the 
>best he can.

He could do somewhat better, although perhaps it is not necessary. He could 
verify by calorimetric means, as I suggested. Monitoring the temperature of 
the power supplies would be a start.


>Jed is saying that he suspects the measurement of microwave excitation 
>power, which he does not understand, therefore all measurements which use 
>this instrument are suspect.

All measurements with all instruments are always suspect, until they have 
been verified in 5 or 10 independent replications. Any single group of 
researchers might be wrong, or crazy, or even criminally faking it. That is 
why a group in Russia worked on polywater for many years. Independent 
replication is the only way to rule out the human factor. But I did not say 
I "suspect" this measurement, I said -- quite clearly -- I have no idea how 
it works.


>Jed's "accidentally 30.0 W forward" is irrelevant.

No, it is crux of the matter.


>He is sounding like a skeptic, which is what he is so far as Mills is 
>concerned.


I am a skeptic about all claims, conventional and unconventional. I insist 
on independent replication and the use of many different instrument types 
and techniques before I believe anything. This claim of Mills has not yet 
met these test as far as I know.



> > Perhaps they should dunk the whole power supply in the bath too. It can
> > handle 85 watts.
>
>And why in the world would they do that?

As a way to be sure the meters on the side are working correctly, obviously.


> > I will never understand the psychology or the business strategy of these
> > people! I hope I live to see them succeed despite my doubts, but it seems
> > insane to me, and unethical, and repulsive.
>
>This shows where Jed stands so far as objective evaluation and looking at 
>the whole picture is concerned.

No, that shows that I can separately evaluate a scientific claim and a 
personality. Just because I think a person is a jerk, criminally negligent, 
or a child abuser does not mean I think his scientific or artistic claims 
have no merit. My impression of Mills, Correa, Bill Gates or Gen. Rommel is 
that they are (were) dreadful people I would not want to associate with or 
invite to dinner, but on the other hand Mills, Gates are Rommel were 
world-class geniuses who knew how to do their jobs. Their failings are 
moral or ethical, not professional.

The reason I do not yet believe Mills has nothing to do with his 
personality. He has not been widely replicated yet. I would not believe his 
claims even if he were Albert Schweitzer (who was supposedly a very nice 
fellow), or Tadahiko Mizuno (who I know to be a very nice fellow).


>Mills welcomes collaborators and has hired a guy to look for partners.

Either he hired is the most incompetent person available, or Mills is 
preventing success by not selling demonstration kits and taking other 
commonsense steps to convince people. When I last heard from him, Mills was 
actively trying to prevent people from learning about his work, and hoping 
that people would not believe him, like the late Jim Reding and the Wright 
brothers from 1905 to 1907. He said that, and he acted that way too.



>The business plan, available on the website, shows concepts for water 
>heaters of all scales, micropower generation, etc. He is looking for $100 
>million to support an aggressive development and advertising campaign for 
>BLP ...

Yes, I have seen the business plan. I think it is idiotic, and I think $100 
million is $99.99 million more than the job calls for.

But of course let me reiterate:, this business plan and these absurd budget 
number have no connection with the scientific claims. Mills may be a 
scientific genius but a terrible businessman. So were the Wrights and so 
was Shockley.




>What Jed's rhetoric missies is the inertia of the marketplace.

That inertia could be overwhelmed in two weeks with a proper PR campaign. 
It is a myth. Almost all of the problem is caused by Mills himself, and the 
rest by 2-bit pipsqueaks like Robert Park. The fact that Park was able to 
block Mills' patent demonstrates how inept Mills is. Park is a fool with 
real no power or expertise. Mills could have swept him aside easily, with a 
little common sense and few public demonstrations.


>BLP heaters will have low installation costs and very low or no fuel 
>costs. But it's new technology and many customers will be more concerned 
>about support, reliability, features and name brand than some savings on a 
>fuel bill.

Oh nonsense! This is completely off the track. First of all, no customer 
anywhere will be allowed to buy a Mills device until every scientist, 
engineer and corporate manager in the world has become convinced they are 
real, and major industrial companies manufacture them, the Congress has 
passed new laws, and the Underwriters' Laboratory and other institutions 
have spent years and billions of dollars testing the devices. Support, 
reliability and features mean absolutely nothing in this context. Mills 
himself will never be in a position to make gadgets and sell them to the 
public any more than he can make Boeing 747 aircraft in his garage. Before 
a single Mills gadget is installed we must have a social revolution. We 
could have one. Indeed, once scientists and engineers everywhere believe 
his claims a revolution is inevitable. But Mills must take steps to trigger 
that revolution. Half measures and fights with idiots like Park will not 
suffice.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov  9 14:38:58 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Line width:  confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:37:23 +1100
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Sat, 9 Nov 2002 10:45:13 -0600:
Hi,
[snip]

>Robin van Spaandonk posted;
>
>>In reply to  Mike Carrell's message of Fri, 8 Nov 2002 09:15:26 -0800:
>>Hi,
>>[snip]
>>>No more mysterious than that. Of course extracting excess heat from ionized
>>>water vapor is quite "mysterious" enough. It is a paradigm breaker.
>>>
>>>Mike Carrell
>>>
>>Note that Stanley Meyer was also using water vapour and microwaves.
>>He just didn't know where the energy was coming from.
>
>Are you saying that Stan actually produces some surplus energy?

I have been informed by private email, that Stan did not in fact deliberately
make use of microwaves, and indeed upon closer examination of the documents I have I have been able to find no explicit mention thereof.
I was mislead by his constant mention of "resonant chambers".

Nevertheless, I suspect that he did indeed produce some surplus energy
based upon hydrinos. Stan himself appears to have believed that it
came from another dimension (judging by his WFC Technical Brief).
BTW Stan passed away several years ago.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov  9 20:23:45 2002
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Subject: Re: Line width:  confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
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Thomas Malloy wrote:
<snip>
>
> Are you saying that Stan actually produces some surplus energy?

I did not follow Meyer's claims closely. I believe that he asserted that he
had a method of electrolyzing water that took very little energy. He
"appeared" to have a vehicle with an on-board electrolyzer producing a gas
used by an IC engine, whose alternator furnished enough power to electrolyze
the water.

This bears only the most superficial resemblance to Mills' claims. He has
ionized water vapor and produced the BLP reaction, but he has not extracted
enough power from any of his lab experiments to produce the hydrogen fuel
from water. Such remains a possibility predicted by his theory, but
engineering accomplishment is not yet realized.

Meyer's apparatus probably ionized some water. If it produced O++ and H,
quite possibly, then the BLP reaction may have occurred. I don't think Mills
has at this point explored the range of conditions which will produce the
BLP reaction in water.

Mike Carrell




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Hi,

On this occasion, Spontaneous Human Combustion phenomenon could be also mentioned.

On last discuss on this SHC issue with Horace Heffner, I had proposed not the fat but
 the water could be the fuel. This hypothesis is supported by the character of the burning, 
as blue flames, high temperature, absence of smoke and carbonic residues but white ashes,
unburned extremities, sign of anaerobic reaction like burning from inside and non propagation.
Fire does not propagate because outside of the body is burned at the and as it is not H2O rich
as interior or the required water vapor concentration for the reaction is only obtained inside
the body. So less vigorous reactions occurs on exterior parts, and less heat is produced.
Maybe the released H2 by the reaction consume the air's O2 and prevent burning of the environment.

Alternatively the Hydrogen in anomalous state does not produce exothermic reaction with Oxygen,
or even dont react. As acting as inert gas, behave as fire extinguisher. This also help to explain
why the fire does not propagate to environment.

This look like the body is burned in Oxygen rich environment, where the Oxygen is supplied by
disintegration of the H2O energized by the Mills reaction.


Mike Carrell wrote:
> 
> Thomas Malloy wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> > Are you saying that Stan actually produces some surplus energy?
> 
> I did not follow Meyer's claims closely. I believe that he asserted that he
> had a method of electrolyzing water that took very little energy. He
> "appeared" to have a vehicle with an on-board electrolyzer producing a gas
> used by an IC engine, whose alternator furnished enough power to electrolyze
> the water.
> 
> This bears only the most superficial resemblance to Mills' claims. He has
> ionized water vapor and produced the BLP reaction, but he has not extracted
> enough power from any of his lab experiments to produce the hydrogen fuel
> from water. Such remains a possibility predicted by his theory, but
> engineering accomplishment is not yet realized.
> 
> Meyer's apparatus probably ionized some water. If it produced O++ and H,
> quite possibly, then the BLP reaction may have occurred. I don't think Mills
> has at this point explored the range of conditions which will produce the
> BLP reaction in water.
> 
> Mike Carrell

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> 
> In reply to  Mike Carrell's message of Fri, 8 Nov 2002 09:15:26 -0800:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >No more mysterious than that. Of course extracting excess heat from ionized
> >water vapor is quite "mysterious" enough. It is a paradigm breaker.
> >
> >Mike Carrell

This extra energy could be balanced if an exothermic reaction is considered. By product O2 and hydrogen in atomic or molecular form need be released. This hydrogen should be in a special state being less reactive and less exothermic. In the report I dont not recall an analyses of the processed gas or the water vapor. Even this atypic H could not be noticed if proper method is not used.

It would be funny that "cheap hydrogen" produced by such a reaction would be indeed cheap, less calorific like the cheap coal.

 
> >
> Note that Stanley Meyer was also using water vapour and microwaves.
> He just didn't know where the energy was coming from.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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Subject: Ionized water vapor
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My remark:
-------------
 No more mysterious than that. Of course extracting excess heat from ionized
 water vapor is quite "mysterious" enough. It is a paradigm breaker.
-------------
Seems to be taking on a life of its own and is being misinterpreted. Soon I
expect to see kits touting the medicinal effects of ionized water.

It is altogether remarkable that a BLP reaction directly from water can
happen. Very explicitly his tests were at a low pressure, in the 1 Torr
region, and required use of microwaves to ionize oxygen to the +2 state
wherein it is a BLP catalyst and can react with atomic hydrogen. The same
microwave field that ionizes the oxygen can also dissociate the water vapor
and the hydrogen. Mills has reported one experiment. I don't know that he
has explored the range of conditions under which the process occurs. That
may not be understood for decades.

A number of energy phenomena have been associated with underwater arcs,
which transiently might produce the conditions for the BLP reaction. Such is
a conjecture which requires study in itself. The BLP reaction will not
originate from a chemical source by itself.

Since Mills began his work, he has found more and more catalysts in Nature.
Even with known catalysts, producing the BLP reaction takes know-how and at
the moment some fairly sophisticated equipment. Eventually the support cost
will become quite manageable.

Mike Carrell


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Subject: Re: Line width:  confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
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Jed wrote:

> Mike Carrell wrote:
>
> >The Evanson cavity and the associated microwave generator are
> >standard lab stuff and the measurement of direct and reflected power is
> >built into the instrument and displayed on meters on the front the of the
> >box.
>
> I hope it is working right. I suppose it probably is, since off-the-shelf
> meters used for the intended purpose are seldom wrong to this extent,
> confusing 77 with 55 watts.

There is no reason to assume that it was not working right.

> >The apparatus was initially designed just as "lamp" -- an exciter of
> >ionizable gases so that their emission spectrum could be read. It was not
> >intended as an element in a calorimetry experiment, so Mills is doing the
> >best he can.
>
> He could do somewhat better, although perhaps it is not necessary. He
could
> verify by calorimetric means, as I suggested. Monitoring the temperature
of
> the power supplies would be a start.

As I've said, the several calorimetric methods Mills used would not pass
muster in the CF world, where ultraprecise techniques have been required.
Better is not necessary. The effects are large, beyond any reasonable
experimental error. We are talking about Existence Proofs: did the house
burn down or not?

> >Jed is saying that he suspects the measurement of microwave excitation
> >power, which he does not understand, therefore all measurements which use
> >this instrument are suspect.
>
> All measurements with all instruments are always suspect, until they have
> been verified in 5 or 10 independent replications. Any single group of
> researchers might be wrong, or crazy, or even criminally faking it. That
is
> why a group in Russia worked on polywater for many years. Independent
> replication is the only way to rule out the human factor. But I did not
say
> I "suspect" this measurement, I said -- quite clearly -- I have no idea
how
> it works.

Quite so. An unassailable argument in principle applied to any minutiae of a
situation. It becomes more difficult to sustain when there are dozens of
supporting results. It is the same in the CF world. There are few genuine
replications, the identical experiment with identical results. There are
dozens if not hundreds of supporting experiments. It is so with BLP. Many
experiments were done in reputable university and industrial laboratories
under BLP sponsorship before the present facilities and staff were in place.
Critics do not accept those results as they were paid for by BLP and
therefore in principle suspect.
>
<snip>
>
>
> I am a skeptic about all claims, conventional and unconventional. I insist
> on independent replication and the use of many different instrument types
> and techniques before I believe anything. This claim of Mills has not yet
> met these test as far as I know.

Jed has not really studied Mills' work. The standard stated above is not
realized until there are many commercial applications. Mills' papers show
many techniques, many instruments, and supporting results. So, of course Jed
does not know what Mills has done and is just making statements which in
themselves are correct but prove nothing about what Mills has accomplished.

> > > Perhaps they should dunk the whole power supply in the bath too. It
can
> > > handle 85 watts.
> >
> >And why in the world would they do that?
>
> As a way to be sure the meters on the side are working correctly,
obviously.

Obviously you have to waterproof an instrument designed for dry land. And
then you introduce still more variables, for what you can measure is the AC
input power to the microwave generator, not its microwave output. The
internal losses of the generator are a complex function of the output
condition and you would have to calibrate that too. Really.......!!!!!!!!!!

> > > I will never understand the psychology or the business strategy of
these
> > > people! I hope I live to see them succeed despite my doubts, but it
seems
> > > insane to me, and unethical, and repulsive.
> >
> >This shows where Jed stands so far as objective evaluation and looking at
> >the whole picture is concerned.
>
> No, that shows that I can separately evaluate a scientific claim and a
> personality. Just because I think a person is a jerk, criminally
negligent,
> or a child abuser does not mean I think his scientific or artistic claims
> have no merit. My impression of Mills, Correa, Bill Gates or Gen. Rommel
is
> that they are (were) dreadful people I would not want to associate with or
> invite to dinner, but on the other hand Mills, Gates are Rommel were
> world-class geniuses who knew how to do their jobs. Their failings are
> moral or ethical, not professional.

Having met and talked with and studied the writings of Randell Mills and
Paulo Correa and Jed Rothwell I have different opinions of their strengths,
weaknesses and ethical value to humanity.
>
> The reason I do not yet believe Mills has nothing to do with his
> personality. He has not been widely replicated yet. I would not believe
his
> claims even if he were Albert Schweitzer (who was supposedly a very nice
> fellow), or Tadahiko Mizuno (who I know to be a very nice fellow).>
>
> >Mills welcomes collaborators and has hired a guy to look for partners.
>
> Either he hired is the most incompetent person available,

The man was just hired.

>  or Mills is
> preventing success by not selling demonstration kits and taking other
> commonsense steps to convince people.

Jed can only think in terms of sidewalk vending. He has no real
understanding of what it takes to do real world R&D. He has done very well
as a software entrepreneur, but computer programs exist in a world defined
by understood rules. Jed would be nowhere without the vast labor and
investment that creates standardized electronic parts from the raw materials
of nature. Hs has hammered on this theme to the abuse of researchers in CF
for the last decade or so and it has done no good. The one bright spot, the
Patterson Cell, was headed to defeat even as it shone, for the success which
Jed saw and valiantly defended was short lived. Patterson did not really
understand the process, it was not under control, and soon could no longer
be replicated. The failure to sell out to Motorola, with deep pockets, was a
blunder of management hubris on the part of Patterson's immature MBA
grandson who was president of the company.

The CF world has no covering theory to guide researchers toward experimental
success. Mills's track record in predicting successful experiments is simply
astounding. His problem is energy extraction from an unusual process, as was
Correa's with PAGD.

When I last heard from him, Mills was
> actively trying to prevent people from learning about his work, and hoping
> that people would not believe him, like the late Jim Reding and the Wright
> brothers from 1905 to 1907. He said that, and he acted that way too.

I don't know where Jed got that idea about Mills. Every indication I see
makes Jed's comment nonsense based on a repeated and determined failure to
study what Mills had done. Mills publishes detailed lab reports on a regular
basis on his website. that Jed can't understand them is not Mills' fault.
>
> >The business plan, available on the website, shows concepts for water
> >heaters of all scales, micropower generation, etc. He is looking for $100
> >million to support an aggressive development and advertising campaign for
> >BLP ...
>
> Yes, I have seen the business plan. I think it is idiotic, and I think
$100
> million is $99.99 million more than the job calls for.

Which simply means that Jed doesn't understand the problems or what Mills is
attempting.

>
> But of course let me reiterate:, this business plan and these absurd
budget
> number have no connection with the scientific claims. Mills may be a
> scientific genius but a terrible businessman. So were the Wrights and so
> was Shockley.

Mills has carefully avoided Shockley's mistakes. He has spent investors
money very carefully and for himself maintains a middle class lifestyle. As
for the numbers in the Company Description, I give them little credence, for
the present state of the technology is too far removed from commerce to make
reliable product cost estimates. That should not blind one to the potential.
>
>
> >What Jed's rhetoric missies is the inertia of the marketplace.
>
> That inertia could be overwhelmed in two weeks with a proper PR campaign.

Jed is ignoring they very extensive PR campaign that Edison undertook to
sell electric lighting, to separate the idees of "light" and "fire" in the
public mind. People did not fall all over themselves to acquire electric
lighting, even after Edison built the Pearl Street station and lighted JP
Morgan's board room.

> It is a myth. Almost all of the problem is caused by Mills himself

This is nonsense. Data, please.

, and the
> rest by 2-bit pipsqueaks like Robert Park. The fact that Park was able to
> block Mills' patent demonstrates how inept Mills is.

And on what evidence does Jed think that it was Park that got the USPTO to
block the patent? There are other, more powerful players in this game.

Park is a fool with
> real no power or expertise. Mills could have swept him aside easily, with
a
> little common sense and few public demonstrations.

This is quite irresponsible on Jed's part. He should well remember how
subtle were the errors that led the inventors of the Kinetic Furnace into
sincere belief that the devices was OU. The present state of any of the
devices in the lab require sophisticated understanding of instrument
readings to see the claimed effect. John Q. and even Jed Rothwell gain no
certainty from the Blamer line broadening or a warmed water bath. An
adequately trained observed can and does.

Jed and others think that Mills can trot out a closed loop water engine demo
and wow the world. Right now he can't. I've warned him privately that he
must not attempt such a demonstration until it is absolutely bulletproof and
he can provide a kit of parts so someone else can build one. Once he
surfaces with such a demonstration he will spend all his time defending
himself from critics. Already an article in Scientific American has placed
him in context with Joseph Newmann. It was a clever bit of journalism,
quoting selected facts in a context to denigrate Mills and his work.
>
> >BLP heaters will have low installation costs and very low or no fuel
> >costs. But it's new technology and many customers will be more concerned
> >about support, reliability, features and name brand than some savings on
a
> >fuel bill.
>
> Oh nonsense! This is completely off the track.

***Reader Alert*** If you have stuck with this so far, contrast the
following text with Jed's previous claims about how easy it should be for
Mills to conquer all if only he would sell deomo kits.

>First of all, no customer
> anywhere will be allowed to buy a Mills device until every scientist,
> engineer and corporate manager in the world has become convinced they are
> real, and major industrial companies manufacture them, the Congress has
> passed new laws, and the Underwriters' Laboratory and other institutions
> have spent years and billions of dollars testing the devices.

And Jed thinks Mills' need for substantial resources before moving forward
are unrealistic? Mills' theory is so sweeping and audacious that commercial
success will shake the very foundations of 20th century physics. Mills is
carefully building a foundation of scientific measurements and journal
papers to withstand accusations of fraud. Already the USPTO excuse for
blocking patents is that his theory is at odds with received opinion. Mills
has not sought "common sense" moves so glibly demanded by Jed because a lot
of development engineering is needed by someone with very deep pockets. He
needs to talk to sophisticated corporations, not technical journalists.

Enemies who understand how disruptive BLP technology can be will throw every
roadblock in the way, including questions about the toxicity of the hydrino
compounds which are end products of BLP reactions. If you think
radioactivity scares are silly, wait until the "oilies" start in on hydrino
scares. The fact that BLP technology produces clean energy without fossil
fuel with all those toxic hazards will be forgotten.

 Support,
> reliability and features mean absolutely nothing in this context. Mills
> himself will never be in a position to make gadgets and sell them to the
> public any more than he can make Boeing 747 aircraft in his garage. Before
> a single Mills gadget is installed we must have a social revolution. We
> could have one. Indeed, once scientists and engineers everywhere believe
> his claims a revolution is inevitable. But Mills must take steps to
trigger
> that revolution. Half measures and fights with idiots like Park will not
> suffice.

Jed's logic is like a pretzel. Fortunately he doesn't write computer code
that way. First he says of Mills (quoting from earlier text)
--------------------
I will never understand the psychology or the business strategy of these
people! I hope I live to see them succeed despite my doubts, but it seems
insane to me, and unethical, and repulsive.

Yes, I have seen the business plan. I think it is idiotic, and I think $100
million is $99.99 million more than the job calls for.
-------------------
and now he begins to cite the obstacles that will be thrown in Mills' way.
Mills is not fighting Park. Park is noise. The real enemies are more hidden.

The real problem here is that Jed simply has not studied Mills' work enough
to understand what is going on. That isn't Mills' fault, there are dozens of
technical papers, tutorials and supporting information on the website. I see
in Mills' moves careful strategy to counter just the fight that Jed
foresees.

Mike Carrell




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Subject: LENR and BLP: A Perspective
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Vo,

Since the Rowan University study of BLP technology for rocker propulsion has
surfaced, there has been a riff of discussion about Mills and BLP. Some
Vortex members also subscribe to HSG, the list that discusses Mills' work.
Others may be newcomers, unfamiliar with these two important streams of
development. I will try to give some perspective to avoid misunderstandings.

Both streams surfaced in 1989 after some time of gestation. Both are deeply
disruptive of existing paradigms in physics and are of great potential value
to humanity. The may be complementary in some deep and yet-to-be-discovered
sense. LENR belongs to the nuclear realm, BLP to the chemical realm.
--------------------------
LENR-CANR-CF has no organized leadership and no organized funding. There is
a body of thousands of papers from around the world supporting the original
findings of Fleischmann and Pons of an "unknown nuclear reaction". There is
no covering theory and no set of rules that guarantee success in producing
active material after 13 years of search.

Mills heads a company, BlackLight Power, initially funded at about $25
million, with a board of directors with business and technical credentials.
There is a published book, the Grand Unified Theory of Classical Quantum
Mechanics, over 1000 pages long, laying out in detail Mills' theory, which
he claims is consistent over 85 orders of magnitude, from the subatomic to
cosmic scale. The book is available as a free download from the website.
Dozens of technical papers have been posted on the BLP website and many have
made their way into professional journals. A set of rules derived from
Mills' theory very reliably indicates what elements are catalysts in the BLP
reaction and what are not. Mills is able to show accurate numerical
correlation between calculations from his theory and measured features of
his experiments.
-----------------------------
LENR-CANR show that intense nuclear energy can be released in common
materials under general ambient conditions. Transmutations are also seen.
Toxic byproducts and harmful radiation are absent. Deuterium is the primary
fuel for these reactions, which is plentiful enough, but the list of
consumables in energy producing systems is as yet unknown. No way of
manufacturing reliable active material is known, or the energy and commodity
cost of doing so. The structure of devices for employing LENR is unknown.

BLP is a process which "shrinks" the electron orbit of hydrogen atoms by the
presence of catalysts meeting specific rules. Shrunken hydrogen atoms are
called hydrinos, which are themselves catalysts, so once created, hydrinos
can catalyze hydrinos with further energy release. There is no runaway
"chain reaction". The energy released per atom of hydrogen is much greater
than the energy gained by burning it to get water, thus water is a potential
fuel.  Catalysts are elements such as potassium, rubidium, helium, oxygen,
neon, argon, and others. Many of these have to be ionized before they act as
catalysts. Systems to efficiently extract the energy of the BLP process will
require significant engineering investment.
-----------------------------
LENR produces transmutations which are direct evidence of nuclear processes
at work. At the present level of understanding, the transmutation patterns
are not well understood or controllable. Potentially, transmutation products
may have commercial value. There is evidence that transmutation occurs in
biological systems and such may have survival potential to supplement diets
deficient in essential minerals.

BLP end product is hydrinos, which can acquire electrons and become hydrino
hydrides, and may form di-hydrino molecules. The degree of "shrinkage" of
the hydrinos affects their chemical and energetic properties. Hydrino
compounds are a new class of matter. Potential products include electric
batteries whose storage density is well over 1000 watt-hours per kilogram.
Such would solve many problems associated with use of renewable energy
sources and transportation.

BLP energy modules produce a valuable chemical byproduct. BLP chemical
manufacturing modules produce energy as a marketable byproduct.
----------------------------
LENR/CF suffered very bad PR and is now commonly believed to be a great
scientific blunder. This opinion will slowly turn.  A theory may evolve
which will make the experimental evidence more acceptable.

BLP theory has been generally ignored, like the elephant in the living room.
Consequently, experimental evidence supporting the theory is also dismissed
or attributed to experimental error.
----------------------------
LENR began with some questions by Fleischmannn about the behavior of
deuterium heavily loaded in palladium

BLP began with an inspiration by Mills on the nature of the electron orbit
in a hydrogen atom, leading to the 'orbitsphere' model and conditions for
the non-radiative stability of the orbit. The led to postulation of states
lower than 'ground state' and to a blending of quantum mechanics and
Maxwell's theory into a deterministic model of physics wherein the same laws
apply to all scales. The lower states were found when looked for. This is a
classical hypothesis - theory - experimental sequence in which the success
of the theory in predicting experiments demands serious consideration of the
theory.
----------------------------

At this point in time, BLP has presented very persuasive evidence that the
hydrino state of hydrogen is real, to the extent that it can be liquefied at
liquid nitrogen temperatures and characterized by many analytical methods.
Very strong heat release is seen in some cases. Water vapor can be a fuel
source by using microwaves to ionize the oxygen and to produce atomic
hydrogen. Very intense hydrogen plasmas have been produced from water vapor,
which have potential for very powerful lasers operating from the UV to IR
regions.

BLP has produced single crystal diamond films which may be of considerable
potential commercial value.

BLP is nearing the end of its research phase and is actively seeking
partners for commercial development of the technology to be billed as
"Greater Than Fire", making  BlackLight as common as "Intel Inside".


Mike Carrell



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 10 13:16:08 2002
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Dear Mike, 

"Shrunken hydrogen atoms are called hydrinos, which are themselves catalysts,
 so once created, hydrinos can catalyze hydrinos with further energy release.
 There is no runaway "chain reaction". The energy released per atom of hydrogen
 is much greater than the energy gained by burning it to get water, thus water
 is a potential fuel. "

Could you clarify:

1) As energy is released when the hydrino is produced, hydrinos themselves are NOT be considered as energy storage for further reactions, isn't it?

2) Is it known that hydrinos have equally, less or more affinity than normal hydrogen on chemical reactions? Or they are inert or they have totally different chemical character?

hamdi ucar

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Dear all,

The long promised "most recent paper" on transient weight changes is up on
the Avalon website:

http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/AcceleratedQuartz.htm

Enjoy, discuss, rip me apart.

NR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 10 17:48:20 2002
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On Sunday 10 November 2002 16:59, Mike Carrell wrote:
> Vo,
> 
> Since the Rowan University study of BLP technology for rocker propulsion has
> surfaced, there has been a riff of discussion about Mills and BLP. Some
> Vortex members also subscribe to HSG, the list that discusses Mills' work.
> Others may be newcomers, unfamiliar with these two important streams of
> development. I will try to give some perspective to avoid misunderstandings.
> 
> Both streams surfaced in 1989 after some time of gestation. Both are deeply
> disruptive of existing paradigms in physics and are of great potential value
> to humanity. The may be complementary in some deep and yet-to-be-discovered
> sense. LENR belongs to the nuclear realm, BLP to the chemical realm.
> --------------------------
> LENR-CANR-CF has no organized leadership and no organized funding. There is
> a body of thousands of papers from around the world supporting the original
> findings of Fleischmann and Pons of an "unknown nuclear reaction". There is
> no covering theory and no set of rules that guarantee success in producing
> active material after 13 years of search.
> 
> Mills heads a company, BlackLight Power, initially funded at about $25
> million, with a board of directors with business and technical credentials.
> There is a published book, the Grand Unified Theory of Classical Quantum
> Mechanics, over 1000 pages long, laying out in detail Mills' theory, which
> he claims is consistent over 85 orders of magnitude, from the subatomic to
> cosmic scale. The book is available as a free download from the website.
> Dozens of technical papers have been posted on the BLP website and many have
> made their way into professional journals. A set of rules derived from
> Mills' theory very reliably indicates what elements are catalysts in the BLP
> reaction and what are not. Mills is able to show accurate numerical
> correlation between calculations from his theory and measured features of
> his experiments.
> -----------------------------
> LENR-CANR show that intense nuclear energy can be released in common
> materials under general ambient conditions. Transmutations are also seen.
> Toxic byproducts and harmful radiation are absent. Deuterium is the primary
> fuel for these reactions, which is plentiful enough, but the list of
> consumables in energy producing systems is as yet unknown. No way of
> manufacturing reliable active material is known, or the energy and commodity
> cost of doing so. The structure of devices for employing LENR is unknown.
> 
> BLP is a process which "shrinks" the electron orbit of hydrogen atoms by the
> presence of catalysts meeting specific rules. Shrunken hydrogen atoms are
> called hydrinos, which are themselves catalysts, so once created, hydrinos
> can catalyze hydrinos with further energy release. There is no runaway
> "chain reaction". The energy released per atom of hydrogen is much greater
> than the energy gained by burning it to get water, thus water is a potential
> fuel.  Catalysts are elements such as potassium, rubidium, helium, oxygen,
> neon, argon, and others. Many of these have to be ionized before they act as
> catalysts. Systems to efficiently extract the energy of the BLP process will
> require significant engineering investment.
> -----------------------------
> LENR produces transmutations which are direct evidence of nuclear processes
> at work. At the present level of understanding, the transmutation patterns
> are not well understood or controllable. Potentially, transmutation products
> may have commercial value. There is evidence that transmutation occurs in
> biological systems and such may have survival potential to supplement diets
> deficient in essential minerals.
> 
> BLP end product is hydrinos, which can acquire electrons and become hydrino
> hydrides, and may form di-hydrino molecules. The degree of "shrinkage" of
> the hydrinos affects their chemical and energetic properties. Hydrino
> compounds are a new class of matter. Potential products include electric
> batteries whose storage density is well over 1000 watt-hours per kilogram.
> Such would solve many problems associated with use of renewable energy
> sources and transportation.
> 
> BLP energy modules produce a valuable chemical byproduct. BLP chemical
> manufacturing modules produce energy as a marketable byproduct.
> ----------------------------
> LENR/CF suffered very bad PR and is now commonly believed to be a great
> scientific blunder. This opinion will slowly turn.  A theory may evolve
> which will make the experimental evidence more acceptable.
> 
> BLP theory has been generally ignored, like the elephant in the living room.
> Consequently, experimental evidence supporting the theory is also dismissed
> or attributed to experimental error.
> ----------------------------
> LENR began with some questions by Fleischmannn about the behavior of
> deuterium heavily loaded in palladium
> 
> BLP began with an inspiration by Mills on the nature of the electron orbit
> in a hydrogen atom, leading to the 'orbitsphere' model and conditions for
> the non-radiative stability of the orbit. The led to postulation of states
> lower than 'ground state' and to a blending of quantum mechanics and
> Maxwell's theory into a deterministic model of physics wherein the same laws
> apply to all scales. The lower states were found when looked for. This is a
> classical hypothesis - theory - experimental sequence in which the success
> of the theory in predicting experiments demands serious consideration of the
> theory.
> ----------------------------
> 
> At this point in time, BLP has presented very persuasive evidence that the
> hydrino state of hydrogen is real, to the extent that it can be liquefied at
> liquid nitrogen temperatures and characterized by many analytical methods.
> Very strong heat release is seen in some cases. Water vapor can be a fuel
> source by using microwaves to ionize the oxygen and to produce atomic
> hydrogen. Very intense hydrogen plasmas have been produced from water vapor,
> which have potential for very powerful lasers operating from the UV to IR
> regions.
> 
> BLP has produced single crystal diamond films which may be of considerable
> potential commercial value.
> 
> BLP is nearing the end of its research phase and is actively seeking
> partners for commercial development of the technology to be billed as
> "Greater Than Fire", making  BlackLight as common as "Intel Inside".
> 
> 
> Mike Carrell
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

It appears that the rocket works.  Now maybe there should be some work done
on that.  Barring unforseen radiation problems, just maybe here might be a
fuel type that a re-engineered shuttle  could use...single stage to orbit.

Yakov

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 11 00:13:16 2002
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Nicholas Reiter wrote:
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> The long promised "most recent paper" on transient weight changes is up on
> the Avalon website:
> 
> http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/AcceleratedQuartz.htm
> 
> Enjoy, discuss, rip me apart.
> 
> NR

Some ideas:

1) Quantitative or parametric experimenting. Get series of measurements using same setup but only varying a parameter of "conditioning" process. For example if an loudspeaker driven by a signal generator is used for agitating the sample, after finding enough responsive configuration (sine, square, triangle or saw tooth!) perform 20 or more measurements by varying the amplitude of the vibration or the frequency or the duration. It is also worth to try ultrasonic. An ultrasonic power transducer can be obtained in $ 5-$30 range in second hand. Log and report all details of each experiment as time/date, and all environment conditions.

It may also require a more resolution (0.1mg) could be fine. Digital scales on this resolution are expensive but mechanical ones can be obtained in $50-$100 as second hand.

2) Repeatability analysis. Perform exactly same tests 
a) consecutively
b) by intervals (minutes, hours, days)
Again record all details and report.

3) After or prior of each tests in (1) and (2), perform a control measurement.
a) with a reference weight
b) with the actual target prior to conditioning. You probably doing it already.

4) Test sensitivity of measurements to environment conditions variation. For example temperature, humidity, pressure, light (natural and lamp), ambient electromagnetic fields, etc. if some environment conditions can be controlled, forcefully change them and see the dependence.

You have already obtained results that suggest the phenomenon exist.  Maybe before to find the cause of the phenomenon it would be better to report individual results of each experiment including null ones. 

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 11 00:35:39 2002
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Subject: Parksie's damn dam
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Parksie has managed to interfer with several patents, the BLP patent 
was the latest in a list which includes the hydrogen loading patent 
that one of the Vortexians had applied for. He was also instrumental 
in getting Tom Valone fired from the Patent Office. I assume that he 
will do his best to interfer with Carl Tilley's patent too. The car 
and the SUV's might cause the old boy a bit of a problem though. What 
will really cause him a problem is if Carl succeeds in building a 
free running F E machine, which I have heard is what he is working on.

What he has done, metaphorically, is build a dam across the river of 
human progress. It doesn't stop innovations, it just causes them to 
build up like water behind a dam. Eventually, the water overflows the 
dam and washes the damn thing down the river. Jed Rothwell posted 
about an article published in Scientific American several years after 
Kitty Hawk, ridiculing the possibility of heavier that air flying 
machines.

The thing that made aviation take off was the great war. Those of us 
who lived through the gas shortage of the '70's can appreciate what a 
boon a cut off of middle eastern oil would be for Tilley's Technology.

Now if I can just figure out how he's doing it, so that I can figure 
out an alternative method of accomplishing the same thing.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 11 00:35:57 2002
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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 02:35:26 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Line width:  confirmation of Mills' hydrino for NASA?
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>Thomas Malloy wrote:
><snip>
>>
>>  Are you saying that Stan actually produces some surplus energy?
>
>I did not follow Meyer's claims closely. I believe that he asserted that he
>had a method of electrolyzing water that took very little energy. He
>"appeared" to have a vehicle with an on-board electrolyzer producing a gas
>used by an IC engine, whose alternator furnished enough power to electrolyze
>the water.

Well, that much is true.

>
>This bears only the most superficial resemblance to Mills' claims. He has
>ionized water vapor and produced the BLP reaction, but he has not extracted
>enough power from any of his lab experiments to produce the hydrogen fuel
>from water. Such remains a possibility predicted by his theory, but
>engineering accomplishment is not yet realized.

In the past I have posted the story of Tathicus Resources and the 
newly issued patents which are a rehash of Meyer's. Leon and I were 
discussing the difference between ortho and para hydrogen on Friday. 
I was moving my finger tips round and round in order to minic the 
motion of the electrons. They I attempted to move one finger 
clockwise, and the other counterclockwise, this proved difficult. 
Tathicus got in's corporate tit in the wringer over their investment 
in this technology. I was on their emailing list, but I haven't heard 
from them lately. Hum, I wonder if Parksie knows about this?

>
>Meyer's apparatus probably ionized some water. If it produced O++ and H,
>quite possibly, then the BLP reaction may have occurred. I don't think Mills
>has at this point explored the range of conditions which will produce the
>BLP reaction in water.
>
>Mike Carrell

Interesting observation Mike, You know Stan was using tap water, and 
you know what that means, there was calcium and magnesium in it.

My brother, nephew, Phil and I drove down to Ohio to see Stan's dog 
and pony show. It ended with Stan hitting us up for $5000. Phil, who 
is the professional engineer that I'm hoping to take with me when I 
visit Carl Tilley, believes that Stan was producing surplus energy, 
despite my efforts to convince him otherwise.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 11 06:37:21 2002
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Parksie's damn dam
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Thomas:

Unfortunately Parks has influence and a whole choir of fellow
'schentests' who also have not produced anything to back him up.  I n all
reality he has no business at the patent office.  But then nether does
congress. and they have played an instrumental role in fouling the
integrity of the office.  

In the long run it is counterproductive to worry about patents.  You
stake you claim when the thing is applied for.  If your application is
good then any grants past that point can be turned over.

I am wondering if it would not be better to ignore the SOB and drive on. 
Maybe later he can be sewed for his metaling.  A strong argument can be
made for persistence at interfering with progress.  IF it can be proven
he has slowed the wheel then damages can be assessed and those who are as
well prepared as mills can go after him.

Also in a moment of humor.  Your subject line reminds me of a story that
involves simular such manner of government bureaucracy and the
foolishness of publishing without knowing the full story...

I will have to dig it out. look for &#34;Dam Environmentalists&#34;




--- thomas malloy &lt;temalloy metro.lakes.com&gt; wrote:
&gt; Parksie has managed to interfer with several patents, the BLP patent

&gt; was the latest in a list which includes the hydrogen loading patent 
&gt; that one of the Vortexians had applied for. He was also instrumental

&gt; in getting Tom Valone fired from the Patent Office. I assume that he

&gt; will do his best to interfer with Carl Tilley's patent too. The car 
&gt; and the SUV's might cause the old boy a bit of a problem though.
What 
&gt; will really cause him a problem is if Carl succeeds in building a 
&gt; free running F E machine, which I have heard is what he is working
on.
&gt; 
&gt; What he has done, metaphorically, is build a dam across the river of

&gt; human progress. It doesn't stop innovations, it just causes them to 
&gt; build up like water behind a dam. Eventually, the water overflows
the 
&gt; dam and washes the damn thing down the river. Jed Rothwell posted 
&gt; about an article published in Scientific American several years
after 
&gt; Kitty Hawk, ridiculing the possibility of heavier that air flying 
&gt; machines.
&gt; 
&gt; The thing that made aviation take off was the great war. Those of us

&gt; who lived through the gas shortage of the '70's can appreciate what
a 
&gt; boon a cut off of middle eastern oil would be for Tilley's
Technology.
&gt; 
&gt; Now if I can just figure out how he's doing it, so that I can figure

&gt; out an alternative method of accomplishing the same thing.
&gt; 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 11 09:11:47 2002
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Mike Carrell wrote:

> > He could do somewhat better, although perhaps it is not necessary. He
>could
> > verify by calorimetric means, as I suggested. Monitoring the temperature
>of
> > the power supplies would be a start.
>
>As I've said, the several calorimetric methods Mills used would not pass
>muster in the CF world, where ultraprecise techniques have been required. 
>Better is not necessary.

However, "different" is necessary. A claim as revolutionary as this should 
be demonstrated with different instrument types and techniques if possible.


> > I "suspect" this measurement, I said -- quite clearly -- I have no idea
>how
> > it works.
>
>Quite so. An unassailable argument in principle applied to any minutiae of 
>a situation. It becomes more difficult to sustain when there are dozens of 
>supporting results.

Many of these supporting results are from the same authors, and they are of 
a theoretical nature. We need similar results independently derived: 
different people using different instrument types observing the same 
phenomenon with the same gasses.


>  It is the same in the CF world. There are few genuine
>replications, the identical experiment with identical results.

After P&F announced in 1989, many other  electrochemists set to work 
replicating with a palladium cathode, platinum anode, heavy water 
electrolyte. Within a year about ~100 of them reported excess heat, 
tritium, and some x-rays. Fewer reported helium, because it is so difficult 
to detect. The electrochemical cell contents were exactly the same, 
although the instruments used to measure the effects varied.



>There are dozens if not hundreds of supporting experiments. It is so with BLP.

No, it isn't. I have read enough of the BLP literature to see that no one 
else has observed excess heat from these gasses under these conditions 
(although there are scattered, undocumented and unconfirmed reports about 
heat from helium and other noble gasses.)


>Critics do not accept those results as they were paid for by BLP and
>therefore in principle suspect.

That is reasonable. No sensible person would believe in cold fusion if only 
a few confirmations had been made, and all were paid for and performed 
under the direction & guidance of Pons and Fleischmann themselves, using 
their equipment. In the early stages verifications performed by others 
under BLP auspices are okay, but for real proof we must see truly 
independent replications.


> > I am a skeptic about all claims, conventional and unconventional. I insist
> > on independent replication and the use of many different instrument types
> > and techniques before I believe anything. This claim of Mills has not yet
> > met these test as far as I know.
>
>Jed has not really studied Mills' work.

I do not have to know anything about Mills for the above statements to 
apply. All claims must be independently replicated -- no exceptions 
granted, except for large effects demonstrated in front of crowds of 
experts, such the turbine marine engine, the airplane, and the atom bomb.


>The standard stated above is not realized until there are many commercial 
>applications.

No, the standard stated above has always been required for claims made in 
physics, chemistry, biology and other sciences. It has nothing to do with 
commercialization.


>Mills' papers show many techniques, many instruments, and supporting results.

That is a good start, but we must see papers from other researchers, 
totally independent of Mills. The human factor must be eliminated. One or 
two researchers may crazy or fraudulent. With five or ten that likelihood 
becomes insignificantly small, and with ~100 or so it is out of the question.


> > > > Perhaps they should dunk the whole power supply in the bath too. It
>can
> > > > handle 85 watts.
> > >
> > >And why in the world would they do that?
> >
> > As a way to be sure the meters on the side are working correctly,
>obviously.
>
>Obviously you have to waterproof an instrument designed for dry land.

No, you could put the power supplies in a watertight box and submerge the 
box, or use air flow calorimetry through the insulated box. A commercially 
designed air-cooled chamber like the one Mizuno uses would probably work, 
if the excess really is ~20 watts.


>And
>then you introduce still more variables, for what you can measure is the AC
>input power to the microwave generator, not its microwave output.

Measuring AC power is relatively easy. In any case, the idea is to provide 
additional backing for the claim, not to supersede or replace the 
present  method.


>Jed can only think in terms of sidewalk vending.

That is the level Mills is at, and the level he must master. He must 
convince a handful of people before he gets anywhere. For example, he might 
start with a few professors at MIT, including Peter Hagelstein. We are 
talking about one-on-one demonstrations and communication -- the sidewalk 
vendor level.


>He has no real understanding of what it takes to do real world R&D.

Actually, I do have some understanding, having participated at major 
corporations and read about it, but real world R&D has nothing to do with 
Mills. He cannot possibly succeed in doing it, and he is wasting his time 
and his investor's money trying. It is as if the Wright brothers had tried 
to set up a consortium to develop a practical airplane in 1905. The job was 
far too big for them. Before the Mills discovery can be exploited, it will 
require input and expertise from hundreds of thousands of people in many 
professions -- an army of scientists, engineers, lawyers, lawmakers, 
bankers, factory production experts, managers & salesmen. This is not 1867. 
We live in a tightly regimented, rule-bound society. Mills cannot quietly 
develop this thing and spring it on society a fait accompli. The oil 
lobbyists and the APS will tear him to shreds if he tries. Mills cannot 
marshal the technical resources or political power to fight them, and his 
attempts to do so only distract him from the real job, which is *to 
convince society it is real*.


>He has done very well as a software entrepreneur, but computer programs 
>exist in a world defined by understood rules.

Actually, they did not when I started, but in any case my observations are 
supported by the experiences and histories of other people, not myself.


>The CF world has no covering theory to guide researchers toward 
>experimental success. Mills's track record in predicting successful 
>experiments is simply astounding.

And his attitude toward the public, and his business & legal strategies are 
suicidal. He is trying to fight the APS and the oil companies on their 
turf, by their rules, at places like the Patent Office!


>When I last heard from him, Mills was
> > actively trying to prevent people from learning about his work, and hoping
> > that people would not believe him, like the late Jim Reding and the Wright
> > brothers from 1905 to 1907. He said that, and he acted that way too.
>
>I don't know where Jed got that idea about Mills.

A few years ago, Mills told Mallove and he saw no value to demonstrations, 
and he did not care whether the public believes his claims or not. Mallove 
& I got the impression Mills prefers to have the discovery "to himself." 
Many misguided CF scientists and people like the late Jim Reding say the 
same thing, for the same reason, and so did the others throughout history. 
Some CF scientists will not give me papers for LENR-CANR for that reason. 
They want to "corner the market" for intellectual property.



>Every indication I see makes Jed's comment nonsense based on a repeated 
>and determined failure to study what Mills had done.

My statements have nothing to do with Mills' technical claims. I am 
critiquing his business strategy alone. He is making the same mistakes many 
other people have made, including some of history's greatest geniuses.

Actually, my critique only applies if Mills' claims are correct, and he 
really has something.


> > Yes, I have seen the business plan. I think it is idiotic, and I think
>$100
> > million is $99.99 million more than the job calls for.
>
>Which simply means that Jed doesn't understand the problems or what Mills 
>is attempting.

I understand perfectly what he is attempting. It is spelled out in his 
business plan. I think it is the wrong goal, and it is impossible for him 
to achieve, against political opposition from the world's largest and most 
ruthless vested interests. It is the kind of goal that a naive scientist 
might choose, without any consideration of power politics, as if the Patent 
Office is an objective organization dedicated to fairness and progress, 
banks give money to ventures strictly according to technical merit, and the 
Congress makes laws to benefit the nation as a whole, without regard for 
the oil oligarchy.


>Mills has carefully avoided Shockley's mistakes. He has spent investors
>money very carefully and for himself maintains a middle class lifestyle.

Shockley spent the money carefully too, but he did not make products people 
wanted. He considered himself a genius in all aspects of business, not only 
discovery. His mistakes were caused by hubris and naivete.


> > That inertia could be overwhelmed in two weeks with a proper PR campaign.
>
>Jed is ignoring they very extensive PR campaign that Edison undertook to
>sell electric lighting . . .

That PR campaign is exactly what I had in mind! The scientific 
establishment was up in arms against Edison. Every major journal and expert 
said he was wrong, fraudulent, crazy, etc. Scientists who knew his previous 
work, who lived 30 minutes away condemned him without even bothering to 
come and see the demonstration. Yet Edison convinced the world in two weeks 
in December 1879, at the cost of a dozen bulbs strung up around his 
laboratory. People heard about them by word of mouth, and soon, "the 
platforms of the Pennsylvania Railroad in Newark and Jersey City, Trenton 
and Philadelphia were jammed. The railroad added extra trains. Three 
thousand people poured into the one-store village." It would be a little 
more difficult to demonstrate the Mills gadget, but if the machine works 
reliably and it can be reproduced at a reasonable cost, the job could be 
done in weeks or months, for a few hundreds thousand dollars, and zero 
advertising costs. If 3,000 technically sophisticated people saw proof that 
the Mills is correct, he would be unstoppable, just as Edison was. The job 
does not call for $100 million! In fact, unless he first convinces the 
public, he cannot succeed, or commercialize anything, or overcome the oil 
industry and APS even with $10 billion.


>People did not fall all over themselves to acquire electric
>lighting, even after Edison built the Pearl Street station and lighted JP
>Morgan's board room.

They fell over themselves long before the Pearl Street station was built, 
and long before bulbs could be mass produced. Edison swept aside organized 
opposition from the gas lighting interests and the hostility and jealousy 
of the scientific establishment by convincing ~10,000 people he was right.


> > It is a myth. Almost all of the problem is caused by Mills himself
>
>This is nonsense. Data, please.

It is manifest! He has done nothing to convince people. He has lost every 
fight. He cannot even beat Robert Park, for crying out load. It is as if 
Prof. Du Moncel and the other dunderheads had had the last word against 
Edison in 1879, and five years later no one believed the light bulb was real.


>And on what evidence does Jed think that it was Park that got the USPTO to 
>block the patent?

He bragged that he did. But he is not a reliable source of information.


>  There are other, more powerful players in this game.

My point exactly. Fighting them by conventional means is impossible.


>Mills could have swept him aside easily, with
>a
> > little common sense and few public demonstrations.
>
>This is quite irresponsible on Jed's part. He should well remember how
>subtle were the errors that led the inventors of the Kinetic Furnace into
>sincere belief that the devices was OU.

My statements are predicated on the working assumption that Carrell is 
correct, and subtle errors cannot explain Mills' results. It resembles a 
burning house. If subtle errors are possible and convincing demonstrations 
cannot be performed, then Mills has the same problem CF researchers such as 
Storms has.

I cannot yet judge whether subtle errors are possible.


>The present state of any of the devices in the lab require 
>sophisticated  understanding of instrument readings to see the claimed 
>effect.  John Q. and even Jed Rothwell gain no certainty from the Blamer 
>line broadening or a warmed water bath.

Rothwell would, if others observe the same thing and find other means to 
verify input power.


>  An adequately trained observer can and does.

There are millions of adequately trained observers. Out of this pool of 
potential witnesses Mills can find 10,000 or so in a few months. It is not 
quite as easy as showing incandescent lights on a winter night, but it can 
be done. There are probably a dozen people reading this forum who would 
qualify and would take the trouble to do it. The growth in the number of 
believers would be exponential once devices become available.


>Jed and others think that Mills can trot out a closed loop water engine 
>demo and wow the world.

No, I said explicitly that is not necessary. Of course it would make the 
job much easier, but a reasonably reliable 20 watt demonstration that can 
be replicated for less than $10,000 would be sufficient.


>I've warned him privately that he must not attempt such a demonstration 
>until it is absolutely bulletproof and he can provide a kit of parts so 
>someone else can build one.

That is bad advice. He should work with what he has now to do the best 
demonstration he can. The first few hundred people who look at it will be 
sympathetic and willing to forgive an error or come back some other day 
when the gadget is working again.


>Once he surfaces with such a demonstration he will spend all his time 
>defending himself from critics.

No, he will spend all his time convincing his friends. The critics will 
melt away eventually.


>  Already an article in Scientific American has placed
>him in context with Joseph Newmann. It was a clever bit of journalism,
>quoting selected facts in a context to denigrate Mills and his work.

Look at what the Sci. Am. said about Edison in 1879. "It would be almost a 
public calamity if Mr. Edison should employ his great talent on such a 
puerility." He did not respond. He went over the critics heads to the 
public. He never had to respond to the critics.


> > Oh nonsense! This is completely off the track.
>
>***Reader Alert*** If you have stuck with this so far, contrast the
>following text with Jed's previous claims about how easy it should be for
>Mills to conquer all if only he would sell deomo kits.
>
> >First of all, no customer
> > anywhere will be allowed to buy a Mills device until every scientist,
> > engineer and corporate manager in the world has become convinced they are
> > real, and major industrial companies manufacture them, the Congress has
> > passed new laws, and the Underwriters' Laboratory and other institutions
> > have spent years and billions of dollars testing the devices.

There is no contradiction. Doing experiments is one thing. Selling water 
heaters is quite another!

Mills or any CF scientist is allowed to give or sell components to other 
scientists engaged in basic research. A demo kit would have no consumer 
liability attached. Research is done at the researcher's own risk. Most 
conventional experiments at the Nuclear Engineering Department at Hokkaido 
U., for example, would be completely illegal at home, for good reason. 
Furthermore, no one believes the Mills and CF experiments are real, so the 
authorities see no reason to intervene, investigate or set standards. If 
the government thought CF really is fusion, and it really does produce 
tritium, there is no way it would let people like Storms do it at home. 
After 10,000 engineers and scientists begin frantically working to 
replicate Mills you can be sure that regulations and liability will become 
a major issue. The oil industry will probably use them to try and squash 
the research.


>And Jed thinks Mills' need for substantial resources before moving forward 
>are unrealistic?

More resources will be needed than Mills himself could gather in hundred 
lifetimes. Also, orders of magnitude more intelligence, innovation and 
creativity than Mills alone could ever muster, even if he were given $10 
billion, and even if he is the smartest man who ever lived. No single human 
being has the power to do this. Instead, it must resemble research on the 
airplane in 1911: we need 250,000 people frantically working on it, in 
competition, independent of one-another. Bell Labs was arguably the 
greatest concentration of creativity or intellectual power in the world 
from 1952 to 1960, but even that was not enough to develop the transistor. 
It took the combined efforts of hundreds of corporations. Shockley and the 
others at Bell Labs soon went off in the wrong direction, and would have 
made little progress on their own. If they had been given command of a 
national, coordinated project, it would have stalled. Shockley et al. 
dismissed the idea of integrated circuits, even after others invented them 
and began commercializing them.


>He needs to talk to sophisticated corporations, not technical journalists.

He needs to talk to anyone who will listen! That the lesson of history.


>Enemies who understand how disruptive BLP technology can be will throw 
>every roadblock in the way, including questions about the toxicity of the 
>hydrino compounds which are end products of BLP reactions. If you think 
>radioactivity scares are silly, wait until the "oilies" start in on 
>hydrino scares.

Right. That is why commercialization must wait until everyone is convinced 
the claims are real. We need a million engineers and venture capitalists 
out there anxious to make money with this device.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 11 11:20:03 2002
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Subject: Re: Mills' business strategy
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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On 11/11/02 9:09 AM, "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

> A few years ago, Mills told Mallove and he saw no value to demonstrations,
> and he did not care whether the public believes his claims or not.

If Rothwell is talking about  small-scale, sellable demonstration devices,
that is correct about what I have gathered from Mills, although I do not
recall the specific discussion with Mills.  But I most certainly did NOT
state that he does not care whether the public believes his claims or not.
It is preposterous to suggest that Mills does not want the public to believe
his claims. I have never made any such statement.  It is obvious from the
historical record that Mills has made a quite exemplary effort in getting
other independent labs to verify his thermal and spectroscopy work and to
publish it and to try to get others to accept it. The Mills work has a much
higher dimensionality than that of only excess heat. Like the nuclear
products of LENR, the spectral signatures and other data go right along with
the Mills excess heat

However, let me state that I emphatically reject Jed's continuing reckless,
amateurish assault on the Mills business strategy.  As far as I am
concerned, Mills is following a very sound strategy. Not that there are not
other possible workable strategies, but the one he is using right now is a
viable one. It is in the process of working - though it is not necessarily
guaranteed to succeed.

Concerning a recent exchange on Vortex:

********

Rothwell:
> > I will never understand the psychology or the business strategy of these
> > people! I hope I live to see them succeed despite my doubts, but it seems
> > insane to me, and unethical, and repulsive.
>

Carrel:
>This shows where Jed stands so far as objective evaluation and looking at
>the whole picture is concerned.

Rothwell:

No, that shows that I can separately evaluate a scientific claim and a
personality. Just because I think a person is a jerk, criminally negligent,
or a child abuser does not mean I think his scientific or artistic claims
have no merit. My impression of Mills, Correa, Bill Gates or Gen. Rommel is
that they are (were) dreadful people I would not want to associate with or
invite to dinner, but on the other hand Mills, Gates are Rommel were
world-class geniuses who knew how to do their jobs. Their failings are
moral or ethical, not professional.

*****

Lumping Rommel together with Mills and Gates is about as logically and
ethically justified as Time Magazine placing Pons and Fleischmann and
Wilhelm Reich on the same page with Joseph Mengele, as it did in March 1999
(see IE#37 for the context of that Time story).

As Editor-in-Chief of Infinite Energy, I hereby dissociate our magazine from
such a scurrilous, unjustified attack on Gates and Mills.


Jed has been cautioned before about such attacks.  But apparently he has an
incurable passion to repeat them.  I hereby advise Jed that his e-mail
account  JedRothwell infinite-energy.com will terminate, effective November
29, 2002.  If he want to attack inventors and businesses, and me, on Vortex
in the manner that he has been doing, he is welcome to do so -- but it by
the end of the month, if not sooner, it will be under his own mindspring.com
e-mail imprint.

Since I associate editorially and otherwise with people like Mills, the
Correas, Bearden, Shoulders, the late James Reding, and others whom Jed has
attacked, and since Jed does not want to be associated with these people,
this change of e-mail nomenclature should be pleasing to all concerned.


Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
President, New Energy Foundation, Inc.
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816
   editor infinite-energy.com
   www.infinite-energy.com
Ph: 603-228-4516
Fx: 603-224-5975






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 11 12:46:14 2002
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By the way, the quote about Edison came from R. Conot, "A Streak of Luck," 
(Da Capo edition), p. 164

Stripping away a few details and some confusion, Mike Carrell and I 
actually agree on most points relating to Mills. We agree that Mills may 
find it difficult to overcome opposition from vested interests even though 
in a rational world, scientific proof should be enough to convince people.

Actually, I am more optimistic than Carrell about this point. I think the 
20-watt experiment, if properly employed, *would* be enough to convince 
society, and bring Mills everything he desires, even without a 
self-sustaining demonstration. A self-sustaining system would be better, 
but what he has now is good enough. I base that statement on the support 
for cold fusion I have seen over the years. That support is more widespread 
than people realize. I wish the CF scientists would seek out supporters, 
take advantage of this hidden reserve of enthusiasm and goodwill, and 
publish papers for this audience. Unfortunately, many of them go out of 
their way to alienate supporters instead.

The other disagreements between Carrel and I are somewhat more subtle than 
they seem. They more a matter of emphasis and timing than substance. I 
think the PR campaign must come before a major, multi-million dollar 
development effort. Carrel & Mills think development must come first, and 
they hope to spring a full-blown prototype on society. If they can do it, 
more power to them. Perhaps they will succeed, but I think this strategy is 
unnecessarily risky, expensive, time consuming, and it ignores the lessons 
of history. I prefer to do things the easy way, with as much assurance of 
success as possible, especially when I am fighting the oil industry -- the 
most powerful, wealthy and ruthless gang of corporations and dictators on 
earth. Without massively public support I see no chance of success.

Carrel is apparently convinced the findings are real. I don't know and I am 
cautiously skeptical, but by no means would I categorically deny them! 
There is a huge difference between demanding independent scientific 
replications and setting some impossible goalpost such as "full 
commercialization before I look at it." An anti-CF or anti-Mills skeptic 
would demand impossible levels of proof. I want standard levels - 5 or 10 
independent replications. This is what you would demand for an plodding, 
conventional, incremental new claim in physics or engineering.

If these noble gas experiments can be replicated, they are the best proof 
Mills has yet presented, and the technique may have commercial value.


Of course I realize that public support is difficult to secure, and it is 
no instant guarantee of success. The public overwhelmingly supports 
conservation and better automotive gas mileage, but the oil industry and 
the administration have prevented any improvements over the last twenty 
years. We do not live in a perfect democracy or a perfectly free society. 
The oil industry has great influence over the government, the Congress and 
the press. But at least you have some hope of winning when you make your 
case in the public forum, working person-to-person, convincing sympathetic, 
rational scientists instead of flakes like Robert Park. You must use 
unfettered channels of communication such as the Internet. You have no hope 
in the courts, at the Patent Office, with regulators, venture capitalists, 
at the APS, or with the editors of Scientific American. As far as I can 
see, Mills is trying to storm the strongholds of the establishment, instead 
of attacking where the enemy is weak.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 11 12:46:21 2002
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>If Rothwell is talking about  small-scale, sellable demonstration devices,
>that is correct about what I have gathered from Mills, although I do not
>recall the specific discussion with Mills.

I do, and I took notes. Mills said he sees no point in public 
demonstrations or demo kits, and does not care about general public 
opinion. (The man on the street, as it were -- not to be confused by the 
Arab street.) He want to selectively sway the opinion of powerful members 
of the establishment.


>But I most certainly did NOT state that he does not care whether the 
>public believes his claims or not.

Mills said that, not Mallove.


>It is preposterous to suggest that Mills does not want the public to 
>believe his claims.

It is obvious he does not, or he would take steps to convince the public. 
Either that, or he is incompetent at PR and cannot imagine what steps are 
needed. Everyone says he is smart, so I suppose he does not want to 
convince the public.


>However, let me state that I emphatically reject Jed's continuing 
>reckless, amateurish assault on the Mills business strategy.

Instead of characterizing my views as reckless or amateur, I suggest 
Mallove and Carrell should provide counter-examples from the history of 
business showing why I am wrong. I have pointed to parallel, 
well-documented history with Edison, the Wrights, the inventors of the 
transistor and so on. Edison invented the technique I propose -- not me. If 
Mallove and Carrell think Edison was wrong, they should find 
counter-examples. I do not think they will find any examples of severely 
disruptive technology (as defined by Christensen) where the inventor 
succeeded by challenging the establishment in its strongholds.


>As far as I am concerned, Mills is following a very sound strategy.

He has spent years and millions of dollars, and he cannot even get a patent 
past the opposition of Robert Park! It is hard to imagine a weaker 
position, or a worse performance.


>Lumping Rommel together with Mills and Gates is about as logically and 
>ethically justified as Time Magazine placing Pons and Fleischmann and 
>Wilhelm Reich on the same page with Joseph Mengele, as it did in March 1999

No, it is completely different. Rommel and Gates were very similar in some 
ways, and utterly different from Joseph Mengele. At the height of WWII, 
following Rommel's great victories in Africa, Churchill rose in the 
Parliament to acknowledge that Rommel was genius and one of history's great 
generals. I do not recall that Churchill ever cited any other German 
soldier for genius. (Churchill also ordered the MI6 to assassinate Rommel, 
another unique distinction. They tried, but failed.) By all accounts -- 
British, U.S. and German -- Rommel was fair, decent, and he abided 
scrupulously by the Geneva Conventions. In the end he joined the conspiracy 
against Hitler, and Hitler killed him. That is about as different from 
Mengele as any German officer could be.

The reason I cited Rommel, and equate him with Gates, and the reason I 
would not want to invite either of them to dinner, is that despite their 
genius and personal honesty, I find them both repellant, for similar 
reasons. They were ruthless people who did bad things. They served the 
wrong masters. They put their enormous talents to use in ways I disapprove 
of. War is infinitely worse than business, but in the world of business 
Gates has caused harm -- perhaps more harm than good. He has violated 
anti-trust laws and business ethics; he has taken other people's ideas 
unfairly; and he has sold millions of copies of substandard, badly written 
software than infuriates the public, wastes millions of hours, and leaves 
computers vulnerable to hackers. Gates is like Andrew Carnegie: ruthless in 
business, and a saint in philanthropy. In his Sunday articles in the New 
York Times about AIDS in India, Gates once again showed himself personally 
to be a great humanitarian and one of the greatest philanthropists in history.

People are complicated and multifaceted.


>As Editor-in-Chief of Infinite Energy, I hereby dissociate our magazine 
>from such a scurrilous, unjustified attack on Gates and Mills.

As Editor-in-Chief I suggest you bone up on the biographies of Rommel and 
Gates. Calling Mills their equivalent is a complement, after a fashion. If 
Mills really has what he claims he is indeed a genius, but a deeply flawed 
genius, with personality defects that threaten to prevent his own success. 
He is so weak he cannot shove Robert Park aside. And genius or not, he rubs 
me the wrong way! Many geniuses do. They can be insufferable, self 
destructive jerks.


>Jed has been cautioned before about such attacks.

That's like waving a red flag in front of a bull.


>But apparently he has an incurable passion to repeat them.  I hereby 
>advise Jed that his e-mail account  JedRothwell infinite-energy.com will 
>terminate, effective November 29, 2002.

Oh, don't be an ass, Gene. What is the point of doing that? It will annoy 
everyone and serve no purpose. People will have difficulty reaching me by 
e-mail for a few weeks. No other consequences will follow, and it will 
prove nothing. Simmer down.


>Since I associate editorially and otherwise with people like Mills, the
>Correas, Bearden, Shoulders, the late James Reding, and others whom Jed 
>has attacked, and since Jed does not want to be associated with these 
>people, this change of e-mail nomenclature should be pleasing to all concerned.

No, it would be a big mistake. These people all hate one other too, and 
they say much worse things about one-another than I do. In fact, in the 
whole batch of authors who have published in I.E., I am the practically the 
only one with a sense of humor who knows enough history to distinguish 
Rommel from Mengele. Such distinctions are essential to our understanding 
of history, and our successful use of knowledge. Lumping your enemies 
together without distinction serves no purpose. When Mallove gets the 
mistaken notion that I am against him, just because I criticize people like 
Mills, he he lumps people together and makes enemies unnecessarily. He -- 
and Mills -- should listen to what I have to say instead. It would be good 
medicine for them.

- Jed


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From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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On 11/11/02 12:05 PM, "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
wrote:

> Oh, don't be an ass, Gene. What is the point of doing that?

It's done -- as of Nov. 29th. Midnight. There will no longer be danger of
having infinite-energy.com associated with your outbursts posing as
historical analysis.  E.G. "I don't believe in either Tesla or Reich." --
and on and on....

 


>It will annoy 
> everyone and serve no purpose. People will have difficulty reaching me by
> e-mail for a few weeks.

I gave you two weeks. Contact your list and let them know of the change.


>No other consequences will follow, and it will
> prove nothing. Simmer down.

I'm as cool as a cucumber already.  I've been trying to get this taken care
of for a long time. You just gave me the final straw.
> 
> 
>> Since I associate editorially and otherwise with people like Mills, the
>> Correas, Bearden, Shoulders, the late James Reding, and others whom Jed
>> has attacked, and since Jed does not want to be associated with these
>> people, this change of e-mail nomenclature should be pleasing to all
>> concerned.
> 
> No, it would be a big mistake. These people all hate one other too,

You do not know the facts and are blowing smoke, as usual.  You prove my
point over and over.  I have been privy to correspondence of just the past
week between some of the parties. They are quite complimentary and
respectful of each other.  Use your own e-mail nomenclature for such
shoot-from-the-hip performances.

Stick to what you claim to know -- e.g. Rommel vs. Gates -- not the opinion
of various people about each other when you are not privy to their
conversations


> and 
> they say much worse things about one-another than I do. In fact, in the
> whole batch of authors who have published in I.E., I am the practically the
> only one with a sense of humor who knows enough history to distinguish
> Rommel from Mengele.

Unfortunately you forget that some people or most people -- such as myself
-- see their primary commonality. They were both vicious Nazis.  There is NO
humor in associating Rommel with Gates (or calling people insane or possible
frauds when you know almost nothing of their work). The gradation of their
responsibility for being Nazis and what their particular roles were is of no
concern in the context of your discussion.  Furthermore, you did not qualify
any such distinctions when you made the comparisons.


>Such distinctions are essential to our understanding
> of history, and our successful use of knowledge. Lumping your enemies
> together without distinction serves no purpose. When Mallove gets the
> mistaken notion that I am against him, just because I criticize people like
> Mills, he he lumps people together and makes enemies unnecessarily.

You don¹t merely  criticize them. You character assassinate them.  You are
like a bull in a china shop when it comes to science.  The important matters
concerning what Mills, Reich, Tesla, the Correas, and others have (or may
have) discovered and theorized with great difficulty means nothing to you --
if it can't satisfy your criteria for being sold on the street as a widget
as soon as you can get your hands on it -- whether in the primary market or
in the after market.

> He -- 
> and Mills -- should listen to what I have to say instead. It would be good
> medicine for them.

They are far ahead of you.  With the kind of language and arguments you have
continued to use, it is no wonder that they are not interested in listening
to you.  Jed Rothwell edited is fine. Jed Rothwell unedited is often -- too
often -- terrible.

> 
> - Jed

 - Gene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 11 15:07:36 2002
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>Unfortunately you forget that some people or most people -- such as myself 
>-- see their primary commonality. They were both vicious Nazis.

No they were not. That is the point. Everyone who came in contact with 
Rommel -- including British prisoners -- said he was a decent, upstanding, 
honorable soldier, not a bit vicious. He was like Robert E. Lee. Both were 
great generals, and decent, kind people, yet ruthless. Both fought for the 
wrong cause, and should have surrendered sooner. If all of the Germans had 
resembled Rommel, there would have been no atrocities in WWII (except the 
war itself), and no Holocaust. It would have been like WWI. History would 
have been far different.


>There is NO humor in associating Rommel with Gates . . .

Obviously I was not being humorous. It is a serious and legitimate 
comparison, as is the comparison of Gates and the Robber Barons such as 
Carnegie and Rockefeller. Carnegie one of the most despised, ruthless men 
of his time, but he also gave away vast sums to good causes, and said "The 
Man Who Dies Rich Dies Disgraced."


>(or calling people insane or possible frauds when you know almost nothing 
>of their work).

People who act like insane frauds should not be upset when others point 
that out. People who invent their own language should not be upset when 
others do not understand them or assume they are talking nonsense. You must 
conform to social norms if you want to be considered normal. Rugged 
individualists who make up their own rules and invent their own language of 
science must live with the fact that most people will say they are nuts. 
Most people here, for example, think Correa has screw loose, judging by 
comments here and e-mail sent to me. This is an open minded forum. If 
Correa makes that impression here, imagine how the APS would view him! He 
must realize that is the impression he makes. If he wants to appear sane 
and well grounded, he must act normally and speak ordinary scientific 
English instead of his own private language. No theory of science is so 
revolutionary it cannot be expressed in normal English with standard 
terminology, albeit with a few definitions and glosses for new concepts. 
Newton introduced fewer new words into the language than Correa attempts 
to! If scientific ideas required extensive neologisms, it would be 
impossible to translate English papers into Japanese, Chinese or other 
languages far removed from English. That is not the case.

Actually, Correa only pretends to be a rugged individualist. If he were the 
real thing he would not care what I say, and he would be perfectly friendly 
to me. He cares a great deal.

In any case, I have listed serious technical problems with Correa. Neither 
you nor he responded, so I win by default. He did not calibrate, he has no 
blank, he has no idea how much energy he appears to be producing, he did 
not try to eliminate the noise from solar heat, so in my opinion -- based 
strictly on technical issues -- his experiment is worthless. If you 
disagree you should give us some technical reasons.


>The gradation of their responsibility for being Nazis and what their 
>particular roles were is of no concern in the context of your discussion.

It makes all the difference in the world. If all Germans were like Rommel, 
they would not have killed defenseless civilians and Russian prisoners, 
they would have won the war, and they would still run Europe & Russia 
today. Most of us would probably be reconciled to the situation, just as we 
became reconciled to communist domination of Eastern Europe for 40 years. 
We would think of Hitler the way we thought of Stalin during 1960s: "Thank 
goodness he's gone. The others are pretty bad, but we can live with them."


>Furthermore, you did not qualify any such distinctions when you made the 
>comparisons.

People who know about Rommel and Gates would know what I meant, and what I 
had in mind. I cannot qualify every statement the moment I make it, or 
explain every comparison and historical fact.


>You don¹t merely  criticize them. You character assassinate them.

They assassinate themselves. In any case, comparing someone to Rommel is 
not character assassination. Churchill & I admired him greatly, and said 
so. (And we would both have shot him on sight, given the opportunity.)


>You are like a bull in a china shop when it comes to science.  The 
>important matters concerning what Mills, Reich, Tesla, the Correas, and 
>others have (or may have) discovered and theorized with great difficulty 
>means nothing to you -- if it can't satisfy your criteria for being sold 
>on the street as a widget as soon as you can get your hands on it

Come, come! I only pretend that is my criterion. I am joking -- I play 
Devil's advocate, or the role of crass businessman; or the man on the 
street. You know perfectly well that I appreciate scientific achievement in 
its own right, even if it never leads to a useful product. In any case, the 
people in your list are totally different from one another. Mills & Tesla 
made real accomplishments, which I fully recognize. The Correas made claims 
about glow discharge that remain unreplicated, so no one can say whether 
they are valid or not. Reich and the Correas made claims about Orgone 
energy that I say are based on lousy experiments. I gave the technical 
reasons. Until the Correas respond with good answers and new experiments, I 
will stick to my opinions. As for the Mills or Orgone theories, I know 
nothing about them and I make no comments.

- Jed


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In a message dated 11/11/02 6:07:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
JedRothwell infinite-energy.com writes:


> The Correas made claims 
> about glow discharge that remain unreplicated, so no one can say whether 
> they are valid or not. Reich and the Correas made claims about Orgone 
> energy that I say are based on lousy experiments. I gave the technical 
> reasons. Until the Correas respond with good answers and new experiments, I 
> 
> will stick to my opinions. As for the Mills or Orgone theories, I know 
> nothing about them and I make no comments.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 
> 

Very good Jed I agree.  Things in this field are hard enough without 
inventing new lanuagues or making non-verifiable claims.   I went back to 
college and obtained a minor of 15 cr in physics + a EE degreee.   I still 
believe in new energy.  I now can explain my ideas in terms of conventional 
theory.  I can provide a backgound and explain how I differ from the 
convention.  I do not, however, have a working overunity machine. Nor do I 
have have nay investors.   Perhaps I am too honest.  If I ever get one going 
you can believe it.

Right now I am gathering up so equipment to preform some nano powder ball 
lighting experiments.  I, like Mills, did experiments with ionized plasmas 
and never obtained any excess energy.  I now believe that nano power is a key 
ingrediant.

My therorm has pointed me in this direction.  The therom is:

"The gravitational and nuclear motion constants tend toward thouse of the 
electromagnetic in a Bose condensate that is stimulated at a dimensional 
frequency of one megahertz-meter."


http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html

Frank Znidarsic

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 11/11/02 6:07:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, JedRothwell infinite-energy.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The Correas made claims <BR>
about glow discharge that remain unreplicated, so no one can say whether <BR>
they are valid or not. Reich and the Correas made claims about Orgone <BR>
energy that I say are based on lousy experiments. I gave the technical <BR>
reasons. Until the Correas respond with good answers and new experiments, I <BR>
will stick to my opinions. As for the Mills or Orgone theories, I know <BR>
nothing about them and I make no comments.<BR>
<BR>
- Jed<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Very good Jed I agree.&nbsp; Things in this field are hard enough without inventing new lanuagues or making non-verifiable claims.&nbsp;&nbsp; I went back to college and obtained a minor of 15 cr in physics + a EE degreee.&nbsp;&nbsp; I still believe in new energy.&nbsp; I now can explain my ideas in terms of conventional theory.&nbsp; I can provide a backgound and explain how I differ from the convention.&nbsp; I do not, however, have a working overunity machine. Nor do I have have nay investors.&nbsp;&nbsp; Perhaps I am too honest.&nbsp; If I ever get one going you can believe it.<BR>
<BR>
Right now I am gathering up so equipment to preform some nano powder ball lighting experiments.&nbsp; I, like Mills, did experiments with ionized plasmas and never obtained any excess energy.&nbsp; I now believe that nano power is a key ingrediant.<BR>
<BR>
My therorm has pointed me in this direction.&nbsp; The therom is:<BR>
<BR>
"The gravitational and nuclear motion constants tend toward thouse of the electromagnetic in a Bose condensate that is stimulated at a dimensional frequency of one megahertz-meter."<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html<BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic</FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 11 16:31:24 2002
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Dear Gene and Jed:

It saddens me to see such division between two of the most prominent 
supporters of CF.

Can you put down your swords and find an agreeable way to bridge your 
differences and mend your wounds?
Many scientists, supporters and other researchers of CF depend on you for 
publication, exposure and support.
I know nothing of the personal history between each of you (and DON'T want 
to),  ...but I think very highly of you both.

I know that neither one of you probably gets many compliments nor much 
appreciation from the world as a whole, working in such an unusual field as 
CF..but please hang in there and don't give in to in-fighting....  I pray 
that you will see the day where you are each and all recognized and 
supported for your contributions to the world  -  and the specific 
strategies you've used to achieve your success will become insignificant.



Steve Krivit
Los Angeles, CA USA
<http://www.coldfusioninfo.com/>www.coldfusioninfo.<http://www.coldfusioninfo.com/>com
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<html>
Dear Gene and Jed:<br><br>
It saddens me to see such division between two of the most prominent
supporters of CF.<br><br>
Can you put down your swords and find an agreeable way to bridge your
differences and mend your wounds?<br>
Many scientists, supporters and other researchers of CF depend on you for
publication, exposure and support.&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
I know nothing of the personal history between each of you (and DON'T
want to),&nbsp; ...but I think very highly of you both.&nbsp; <br><br>
I know that neither one of you probably gets many compliments nor much
appreciation from the world as a whole, working in such an unusual field
as CF..but please hang in there and don't give in to
in-fighting....&nbsp; I pray that you will see the day where you are each
and all recognized and supported for your contributions to the
world&nbsp; -&nbsp; and the specific strategies you've used to achieve
your success will become insignificant.<br><br>
<br>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
Steve Krivit<br>
Los Angeles, CA USA<br>
<a href="http://www.coldfusioninfo.com/">www.</a>coldfusioninfo.<a href="http://www.coldfusioninfo.com/">com</a></html>

--=====================_3908630==.ALT--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 11 17:59:09 2002
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Subject: Re: Mills' business strategy
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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On 11/11/02 2:54 PM, "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

> Reich and the Correas made claims about Orgone
> energy that I say are based on lousy experiments. I gave the technical
> reasons. Until the Correas respond with good answers and new experiments, I
> will stick to my opinions. As for the Mills or Orgone theories, I know
> nothing about them and I make no comments.
> 
> - Jed

Thanks Jed for proving my case again.

Q.E.D.

- Gene

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Jed said:



> By the way, the quote about Edison came from R. Conot, "A Streak of Luck,"
> (Da Capo edition), p. 164
>
> Stripping away a few details and some confusion, Mike Carrell and I
> actually agree on most points relating to Mills. We agree that Mills may
> find it difficult to overcome opposition from vested interests even though
> in a rational world, scientific proof should be enough to convince people.

Jed and I agree on many things. I think the LENR-CANR website is a great
contribution.
>
> Actually, I am more optimistic than Carrell about this point. I think the
> 20-watt experiment, if properly employed, *would* be enough to convince
> society, and bring Mills everything he desires, even without a
> self-sustaining demonstration.

Sounds great, but what does "properly employed" mean? In the CF arena, there
were dreams of a small device that once activated would manifest safe heat
all by itself, sitting on a desk in impudent defiance of received opinion.
Multiplied, it would force recognition of the "unknown nuclear reaction". It
could be a toy and create a buzz, and by replication crush all attempts to
deny its existence. Eventually the APS would cave in and Park would be
parked.

For BLP, there are two "wow" possibilities. One is the "water engine", a box
that produces substantial energy using a few drops of water as fuel. Such a
thing is theoretically possible, but at present it is like a laptop computer
against ENIAC. They are siblings, separated by a few decades in time but by
tens of thousands of man-years and billions of investment.

The second is the BLP battery, which has such great storage potential that
if realized it could solved in a stroke the utilization of wind and solar
energy and transportation. So much has to happen before such a thing could
be shown that I hazard no guess as to the time. Mills told me once he would
be happy with something twice as good as lithium-ion technology for
starters.

Edison would have made no impact with lamps that lasted ten minutes. He had
to master a whole technology before surfacing. Mills is in the same
position. He has to know how to build the equivalent of the Pearl Street
Station before going "public". If he is there, he isn't saying so.

A self-sustaining system would be better,
> but what he has now is good enough. I base that statement on the support
> for cold fusion I have seen over the years. That support is more
widespread
> than people realize. I wish the CF scientists would seek out supporters,
> take advantage of this hidden reserve of enthusiasm and goodwill, and
> publish papers for this audience. Unfortunately, many of them go out of
> their way to alienate supporters instead.

Jed hasn't been paying attention to Mills. For a time after the Hydrino
Study Group (HSG) was founded (BLP equivalent of Vortex), Mills monitored
the conversation and would occasionally respond to criticisms and comments.
One critic went on and on about some perceived errors in spectroscopic
measurements, and BLP responded by refining the critical paper, which only
strengthened Mills' position. I have since engaged that person off-line in a
private dialogue and find that he "doesn't believe in hydrinos" and is
endlessly inventive in speculating about errors, beyond any reason. We have
seen his type on Vortex.

Mills is polite and generous with his time. But he has too much to do to
answer endless stupid questions.

What Mills has now is more than good enough for someone able to understand
the papers. Gene Mallove can, Jed cannot. No insult here, just the facts.
>
> The other disagreements between Carrel and I are somewhat more subtle than
> they seem. They more a matter of emphasis and timing than substance. I
> think the PR campaign must come before a major, multi-million dollar
> development effort. Carrel & Mills think development must come first, and
> they hope to spring a full-blown prototype on society.

If you don't have something ready, of what use is a promotional campaign?

The little water bath demo should tell any person of sufficient skill that
there is a potential gold mine here. There is the potential to heat homes,
boil oceans for fresh water, drive steamships, and so on. I've already cited
papers and quoted numbers based on real experiments. Jed has simply not
looked at them or understood them, for all his emphasis on reading the
papers. And Jed is a relatively sophisticated person. It will take a company
with strength and know-how to make it real, however. It's quite beyond BLP's
resources.

I have discussed this point with Mills. I have long experience bridging
between an R&D lab and production. There needs to be a bridge device between
the dunked Evanson cavity and a manufacturable approach. This is a demo for
a very small "public". For the right audience, it could create instant
investment. There is a bit of an intellectual disconnect. Bridging it from
the BLP side means diverting very thin resources from other work to engineer
a demo unit. I know how fast something like this can eat up a budget.
Gulp-Gone.

If they can do it,
> more power to them. Perhaps they will succeed, but I think this strategy
is
> unnecessarily risky, expensive, time consuming, and it ignores the lessons
> of history. I prefer to do things the easy way, with as much assurance of
> success as possible, especially when I am fighting the oil industry -- the
> most powerful, wealthy and ruthless gang of corporations and dictators on
> earth. Without massively public support I see no chance of success.

You have to have a bulletproof technical position first. Jed isn't the only
critic crying for replications before belief. There is one simple fact that
is overlooked. At present the only "public" Mills is responsible to are his
private ****qualified**** investors, who from available accounts are quite
happy with the way he is spending their money. Mills' board is also
qualified in a business and technical sense. When and if there is an IPO,
then Mills will be responsible to public investors.

The strategy has been very low key, careful, and stingy. Mills has been
carefully seeding the technical literature with papers supporting the
existence and properties of hydrinos and experiments with them.
Increasingly, these will appear in peer-reviewed journals. The USPTO will
then be unable to claim that the Mills patents are invalid because they are
not supported by received opinion. Mills is building for the long haul, for
which the squabbles of Internet groups matter not. Defending attacks on his
patents in court strengthens his positions, for undefended patents are so
much paper. By going to court, Mills can smoke out hidden enemies and by
systematic review of the literature he is creating with experimental
evidence, win a strong position. A court battle will attract attention and
free publicity. He will win, for court-appointed experts will review the lab
results.
>
> Carrel is apparently convinced the findings are real. I don't know and I
am
> cautiously skeptical, but by no means would I categorically deny them!

That's a good start.

> There is a huge difference between demanding independent scientific
> replications and setting some impossible goalpost such as "full
> commercialization before I look at it." An anti-CF or anti-Mills skeptic
> would demand impossible levels of proof. I want standard levels - 5 or 10
> independent replications. This is what you would demand for an plodding,
> conventional, incremental new claim in physics or engineering.

And Jed, they are there if you will look for them. It depends on how well
you understand the technical issues and how severe your test of
"independence" is. This link
http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/validation.pdf  gives a validation
summary with references to other documents, many published. The list is
terse and quite technical and meaningless unless you are at a level of
understanding the significance. Early in his work, Mills contracted with a
series of university and industrial labs, Thermacore among them, to carry
out experiments. In the past, reports of these experiments were posted on
the BLP website, and later summaries of findings by other labs confirming
various aspects of Mills' theory. Now severe critics will not allow these
results because they were commissioned by Mills. By implication,
institutions such as Penn State and Lehigh University were bribed by Mills
to report what he wanted. Does your skepticism run so far as that? Mine
doesn't.

And don't count Scott Little's failure to "replicate" Mills. I have seen the
setup he used, and in no sense was it a replication of the experimental
apparatus Mills uses.
>
> If these noble gas experiments can be replicated, they are the best proof
> Mills has yet presented, and the technique may have commercial value.

If you read carefully, they already have been "replicated". Mills cites the
earlier papers, results found, and the "explanations" attempted. No, these
were not the exact setups Mills uses, but the same can be said of the many
experiments supporting LENR. If you cite those as support, then you must
accept the earlier work Mills cites as well.
>
> Of course I realize that public support is difficult to secure, and it is
> no instant guarantee of success.

Public support will come by subscription to an IPO. There has to be devices,
yet you have ridiculed the forward statements in the company profile.

>The public overwhelmingly supports
> conservation and better automotive gas mileage, but the oil industry and
> the administration have prevented any improvements over the last twenty
> years.

You mean cars now don't get better mileage than 20 years ago? Is the
"public" ready to give up comfort and performance for better mileage?

We do not live in a perfect democracy or a perfectly free society.
> The oil industry has great influence over the government, the Congress and
> the press. But at least you have some hope of winning when you make your
> case in the public forum, working person-to-person, convincing
sympathetic,
> rational scientists instead of flakes like Robert Park.

Mills does not bother with Park. Park creates public noise and chatter by
technical journalists. Others pull strings. Mills talks to the American
Chemical Society and the Environmental Protection Agency.

<snip>

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 12 06:38:39 2002
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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 06:36:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Evenson cavity measurements
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 Vo:
 
In the discussion of the Mills / BlackLightPower experiments the question
was put to the group  &#34;How do you measure the reflected power&#34;  I
have since had the chance to check out the evenson cavity and it
basically comes right down to this.   

You just measure it. :-)

With an SWR and RF power meter. 

just like you do when you are tuning an antenna.

&#34;Does a different gas behave differently&#34;  

yes...  

That is why you measure it.  

As far as I can see there is absolutely no way to screw this up.  The
Evenson cavity is totally closed to the outside world (within its
designed band)

An example
http://www.sairem.com/products/applicators/evenson.htm

RF power goes in and RF power comes out and you measure the standing
waves and calculate that back to the percentage of direct and reflected
power. Then you can produce a reflected power level. 
 
Take the reflected power measurement and subtract it from the direct
power and ''Sha-Zamm!'' you have the absorbed power.  Any setup errors
result in a lower absorption (less transfer efficiency) ANY ERRORS.  
e.g the cavity is not tuned properly or the cable was not balanced or
there is an RF leak   Even if we take these possibilities of a mal-tuned 
measurement in to account we still would measure less returned (lower
SWR)
and assume that more power was adsorbed by the reaction.

All errors result in figures that show LESS reaction power.

Except of course for those in basic arithmetic.



=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

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In a message dated 11/11/02 11:57:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, mikec snip.net 
writes:


> I have since engaged that person off-line in a
> private dialogue and find that he "doesn't believe in hydrinos" and is
> 

Yes, who would ever believe in that.  It goes against 100 years of science.  
It undermimes the very tenemenet of modern science; the quauntum condtiion.  
Bohr came up with this idea and it has proven correct in every experiment for 
over 100 years.  The quantum condition stiates that the minimum orbital 
angular momentum is h/6.28

I don't believe that we will find new energy by tossing out the known rules 
of science.  I do believe that we can find new energy within the existing 
framwork of conservation laws and the quantum condition.

I have read . Peter Hagelstein's talk at MIT.  He speaks of proton exchange.  
This is possible.  It does not violate some basic tenement of physics.  
Electronic Cooper pairs exchange positions in Bose condensates.  In a Bose 
condensate involving nucleons protons may also exchange postions.  Such is 
possible although difficult.  I beleive the process is the key to new energy. 
 I like what Hagelstein has said and it agress with my work on a 
vibrationally reinforced Bose condensate.

Mill, however. has a lot of money.  He may stumble on things because he has 
the means to do it.  He would get there faster if he had a real theroreticalo 
structure to guide him.


Frank Znidarsic

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 11/11/02 11:57:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, mikec snip.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I have since engaged that person off-line in a<BR>
private dialogue and find that he "doesn't believe in hydrinos" and is<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Yes, who would ever believe in that.&nbsp; It goes against 100 years of science.&nbsp; It undermimes the very tenemenet of modern science; the quauntum condtiion.&nbsp; Bohr came up with this idea and it has proven correct in every experiment for over 100 years.&nbsp; The quantum condition stiates that the minimum orbital angular momentum is h/6.28<BR>
<BR>
I don't believe that we will find new energy by tossing out the known rules of science.&nbsp; I do believe that we can find new energy within the existing framwork of conservation laws and the quantum condition.<BR>
<BR>
I have read . Peter Hagelstein's talk at MIT.&nbsp; He speaks of proton exchange.&nbsp; This is possible.&nbsp; It does not violate some basic tenement of physics.&nbsp; Electronic Cooper pairs exchange positions in Bose condensates.&nbsp; In a Bose condensate involving nucleons protons may also exchange postions.&nbsp; Such is possible although difficult.&nbsp; I beleive the process is the key to new energy.&nbsp; I like what Hagelstein has said and it agress with my work on a vibrationally reinforced Bose condensate.<BR>
<BR>
Mill, however. has a lot of money.&nbsp; He may stumble on things because he has the means to do it.&nbsp; He would get there faster if he had a real theroreticalo structure to guide him.<BR>
<P ALIGN=JUSTIFY><BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic<BR>
</P></FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 12 09:18:29 2002
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:16:35 EST
Subject: Rothwell is on the money..Mallove has become wacked out
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If I can see this so to others.  Mallove and Rothwell have different goals.  
Rothwell wants to find new energy.  It is boring and a lot of work.  Mallove 
wants to sell more magazines.  It is fun with a lot of hipe.  I only skim 
Mallove's articles while I read everything that Jed writes with great 
interest.

As for Mills.  He is off of the mark.  Malwell Boltzmann described the 
distribution of kinetic energy in a gas by introducing the quantum condition 
h.  Planck and Einstein extended this idea to the photo electric effect.  
Bohr explained the atom with it.  Schrodinger and Heisenberg explained the 
intensity of the spectral lines using the quantum condition.  Compton 
explained the scattering of X-rays with it.  Over the last 100 years ithe 
quantum condition has proven true.  Astophysicists have found it true on all 
stars in all galaxies.

The transitor was developed with this in mind.  Look in front of you at the 
at the computer screen.  The phosphors were developed with the qunatum 
condition in mind.  The same applies the the electric supply to your comuter. 
 Again the quantum conditions holds. What about the communications link by 
which you receive this.  Again it is based on the quantum condition.  Now who 
do you believe Mill that the quantum condition does not apply or do you see 
what is before your eyes?

Again, new energy can be had within what we already know to be true.


Frank Znidarsic
http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 12 09:22:08 2002
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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Subject: BLP & LENR: A Perspective Part 2
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Referencing recent exchanges among Jed, Gene and myself. Jed's a good guy at
heart, but there are some things he doesn't understand about BLP. And
lurkers here may not understand either. So I will continue a bit, hoping to
bring understanding and with it less rancor about Mills' intentions and
strategy.
--------------------
LENR meets resistance because if the data are believed, then a major
overhaul of nuclear physics will be forced and lots of people will have to
think real hard. The evidence is "excess heat" detected by refined
calorimetry, nuclear "ash" -- He, T, etc. in trace amounts, and
transmutation products. The last require sophisticated instruments to
detect. There is no covering theory. No method of guaranteeing active
material. Positive reports easily dismissed as error. No desktop toys.

BLP meets resistance because if the data are believed, then a major overhaul
of chemistry will be forced and lots of people will have to think real hard,
for the data support Mills' monumental overhaul of 20th century physics. The
evidence is "excess heat" of large magnitude, extreme ultraviolet radiation
and the existence of hydrinos, hydrogen atoms whose energy level is less
than the classical "ground" state.
---------------------
Some necessary nomenclature. Mills designates hydrinos this way: H(1/p),
where p is a parameter indicating the degree of shrinkage. The first stage
is H(1/2), produced if the energy hole presented by the catalyst fits the
orbital energy of the hydrogen electron. In some reactions, the energy hole
is N times greater, N being an integer. Thus there can be H(1/4) in one
step. It is also possible for two H(1/2) to interact to produce H and
H(1/3). In the hot plasma cloud of an active cell, anything that can happen
will happen.

Until very recently, the existence of hydrinos had to be detected by various
sophisticated technologies because very small quantities were available,
like the detection of transmutation products in LENR. Mills presented
various spectral plots showing bumps on curves, whose values he could
associate with hydrino states by calculation from his theoretical base. Now
in Jed's world, this is very vaporous, but such correlation between spectra
and calculations from theory is the bedrock of a very large amount of
physical theory. A small problem: nobody wants to believe the theory, so the
data is ignored or attributed to calibration errors or contamination. (Where
have we heard this before?)

Within recent weeks, Mills has announced liquefaction of a gaseous product
of a BLP cell in a liquid nitrogen trap. The product has been characterized
by many techniques, all of which show it to be "new" and Mills shows
correlation of the signatures with H(1/p).

Hydrinos themselves are chemically inert because the electron is bound
tightly (below "ground" state) and can't easily exchange with other atoms,
forming chemical bonds. However, hydrinos can capture electrons, forming
hydrino hydrides H-(1/p) [conventional negative charge notation doesn't work
in email]. These can react chemically, but the ionization potential is much
higher than normal hydrogen so the chemical properties are different. Peter
Gluck has suggested the term "orbitality" to denote this new and significant
property of hydrinos.

Small quantities of hydrino compounds have been available for a year or two.
One is magnetic. Pictures of these are available in several papers on the
BLP website. I have handled the vials in Mills' conference room. Samples
have reportedly been given to qualified parties for study. These are "real",
verifiable evidence of hydrinos.

The catch is that the samples cost thousands of dollars to produce. Unless
an analysis is done correctly, their special properties will not be seen. If
company X is curious about application of hydrino compounds for their
products, then X's lab guys have to be familiar with the chemicals and what
they can do. That can take much time & money. But most important, company X
must have assurance of a reliable supply of H-(1/p). Suppose the ideal
product depends on H-(1/3). Can BLP guarantee a continuous supply in
quantity? Not now. Can BLP build company X a facility to make pure H-(1/3)?
Not now, perhaps not for some time.
-----------------
LENR desk top "wow" demo that Jed wants would be a thing that once activated
generates excess heat safely an indefinitely, like a lump of radium that
heats without killing.

BLP "wow" demo would be a battery with much higher storage capacity than the
expensive lithium ion batteries used in laptops, camcorders, etc. BLP has
detected the presence of H(1/16) in the output of some experiments. There is
a paper showing conceptually how an ion exchange battery chemistry can be
made using H(1/16). The cell potential is ~70V and the potential energy
storage density is 600,000 WH/kg. The best exotic battery chemistry now
available is 300 WH/kg. Batteries with lower values of H(1/p) would have
less spectacular capacity. Ion exchange chemistry is indefinitely
rechargeable.
---------------------
If BLP could trot out a family of such batteries the entrepreneurial market
would go wild as Jed has often predicted. All kinds of products would
result. GM's new platform technology would be a breeze. Wind and solar farms
could charge batteries to be shipped everywhere. A BLP battery in your car
would speed you for a thousand miles in style on a single charge.

For all I know, some battery manufacturere may now be working quietly with
BLP. Note here that the Edison nickel hydride battery chemistry has been
know for many decades, yet it is only in the last year or two that one cany
buy them at Radio Shack. I use them, they are clearly superior to NiCd
batteries for many applications. So while a chemistry looks good at first,
getting a commercial product may take a very long time.

The BLP reactors producing the H(1/p) material could power cities.

Why hasn't this happened? At present, BLP reactors produce a mix of H(1/p).
Only in the last few weeks has Mills disclosed that H(1/p) can be liquefied
at room temperature. The higher the p value, the higher the boiling point.
This opens a path to purification by fractional distillation, a well
understood technique. For batteries, the higher the p value, the more potent
the battery, but high p values may be rare and expensive. Controlling the
yield of this process is like ordinary process chemistry where you throw
reagents in a vat, heat and stir, and then try to sort out the reaction
products. It's going to take a major partner with deep pockets and
determination to get useful products. BLP can't do this alone.

The story is similar for the "water engine". Getting then plasma energy out
as heat is very direct, but the losses in a heat cycle generating plant will
overcome the energy yield for the H(1/2) reaction. Perhaps the reactor must
operate at an average of , say, p = 6 for the output of a thermal generating
cycle to produce enough excess energy to electrolyze water and produce the
hydrogen fuel. I don't know. This is a tough engineering problem. Mills has
searched diligently for methods of extracting electrical energy directly
from the plasma. there is progress, but no public evidence of a real good
technique.
--------------------
I hope the above gives some understanding of why Mills has not surfaced with
gadgets as Jed thinks would create instant public demand. He isn't being
difficult or greedy. He has to follow Nature's lead, as do the LENR workers.
Screaming and pouting just doesn't help.

One thing is sure. If Mills "goes public" his position must be technically
bulletproof and he must have a path to product well laid out. I think he is
doing very well.

Mike Carrell




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Mike Carrell wrote:

> > Actually, I am more optimistic than Carrell about this point. I think the
> > 20-watt experiment, if properly employed, *would* be enough to convince
> > society, and bring Mills everything he desires, even without a
> > self-sustaining demonstration.
>
>Sounds great, but what does "properly employed" mean?

It means the devices must be located where many scientists and engineers 
can test them hands on, at universities, LANL and other national 
laboratories, the Royal Institution in England, as well as many informal 
venues. You might think all of these institutions are all tightly closed 
and will not allow such heretical experiments, but that is not so. There is 
a network of open minded people who can open many of these doors. After a 
few thousand of these experiments are observed, verified and replicated 
from scratch the world would see that Mills is right. It would not take a 
million independent replications.


>In the CF arena, there were dreams of a small device that once activated 
>would manifest safe heat all by itself, sitting on a desk in impudent 
>defiance of received opinion.

That is the ideal. However an experiment that produces a watt or two with, 
say, 10 watts of input would be nearly as good. It could be confirmed with 
confidence, using reasonably cheap instruments; i.e., ordinary static 
calorimeter that cost a few hundred dollars, not a $6,000 Seebeck. 
Unfortunately I do not know anyone capable of building such a thing.


>Multiplied, it would force recognition of the "unknown nuclear reaction". 
>It could be a toy and create a buzz, and by replication crush all attempts 
>to deny its existence.

I have no doubt that is true. Every breakthrough in history has met with 
hostile opposition -- inoculations, photographs, telegraphs, electric 
lights, vitamins, computers . . . Hoards of angry "skeptics" always attack 
innovations. I guess it is human nature. As far as I know, in every 
recorded example in history, the opposition was only pushed aside 
when  many members of the public saw the physical devices (or cured 
disease) for themselves and confirmed the truth. People only believe what 
they see for themselves. Actually, that's a good thing.


>Eventually the APS would cave in and Park would be parked.

It has always happened that way in the past.


>For BLP, there are two "wow" possibilities. One is the "water engine", a 
>box that produces substantial energy using a few drops of water as fuel. 
>Such a thing is theoretically possible, but at present it is like a laptop 
>computer against ENIAC.

If the device that produces 20 watts excess works most of the time, it 
would be almost as good as a self-sustaining demonstration. The skeptics 
would refuse to look at it, but there are thousands of open minded educated 
people *would* look, and that's all you need.


>Edison would have made no impact with lamps that lasted ten minutes.

Most of the lamps he demonstrated publicly in 1879 did, in fact, last only 
ten minutes or so. When he called in a group of investors, the lamps flared 
for a few seconds, exploded, and set fire to the parlor. In 1880 he had 
people manufacturing dozens of lamps, but only 2 or 3 per day worked. (p. 
173) The others burned out with seconds or minutes.


>He had to master a whole technology before surfacing.

He "surfaced" two years before any lamp worked, "bobbing up" in the 
newspapers constantly, boasting that he would soon solve the incandescent 
lamp problem. He did not even begin to work on the generators, fixtures, 
switches, distribution system and components other than the lamp until 
after the famous public demonstrations that attracted thousands of people. 
(During the demonstration they used off-the-shelf dynamos made by other 
people, and a telegraph key for an on-off switch.) The screw socket and 
fuses was invented in 1881. The first buildings in Manhattan were 
illuminated that year.


>Mills is in the same position. He has to know how to build the equivalent 
>of the Pearl Street Station before going "public".

It is just the opposite. The opposition will never allow him to build a 
Station unless he goes public first. Today's opposition is a great deal 
more powerful than the gas-lamp interests who tried to block Edison.


>Jed hasn't been paying attention to Mills. For a time after the Hydrino
>Study Group (HSG) was founded (BLP equivalent of Vortex), Mills monitored 
>the conversation and would occasionally respond to criticisms and comments.

That is not enough. He must reveal every detail, attend conferences, invite 
people to visit, and see to it that hundreds of people replicate his 
experiment. That is what Pons and Fleischmann did, and what all scientists 
do. In other words, Mills must act like a scientist not an inventor or 
corporate researcher. Normally this is not advisable but in his case this 
would be the less risky approach. At present, he is so vulnerable he cannot 
even overcome Robert Park. How will he cope with Exxon or OPEC?


>One critic went on and on about some perceived errors in spectroscopic 
>measurements, and BLP responded by refining the critical paper, which only 
>strengthened Mills' position. I have since engaged that person off-line in 
>a private dialogue and find that he "doesn't believe in hydrinos" . . .

Such critics do not matter. Mills has thousands of potential friends -- 
people who would be thrilled to replicate, and who would work hard to 
replicate. They are the ones he must reach out to.


>Mills is polite and generous with his time. But he has too much to do to
>answer endless stupid questions.

His job is to answer stupid questions. That is the only way to succeed. If 
he does not want to answer question, he must train someone else. He has to 
hold two week seminars the way AT&T did to show customers how to use 
transistors, and later how to make them. A scientist MUST teach others how 
to replicate if his work is to have any meaning. I understand that Mills 
wants to act as a inventor or corporation instead of a scientist, but I do 
not think he can. He is too weak politically; the job is taking too long, 
costing too much. It is too risky. He can have everything he wants using 
the academic approach.


>What Mills has now is more than good enough for someone able to understand 
>the papers.

No, it isn't. Not until many others have replicated him. He must meet the 
same standard we demanded of Pons and Fleischmann, Shockley, and all other 
illustrious scientists and inventors.


>If you don't have something ready, of what use is a promotional campaign?

He has 20 watts. That is enough. Edison, Shockley and others succeeded with 
less.


>The little water bath demo should tell any person of sufficient skill that
>there is a potential gold mine here.

Yes, but it must be independently replicated first.


>I've already cited papers and quoted numbers based on real experiments. 
>Jed has simply not looked at them or understood them . . .

That's not true. I demand independent replication before I believe any 
experiment is real.


>There needs to be a bridge device between the dunked Evanson cavity and a 
>manufacturable approach. This is a  demo for a very small "public".

Worldwide the potential audience amounts to millions of people! In the U.S. 
alone you could convince hundreds of thousands of smart people with this 
demo, once it is independently confirmed and replicated.


>You have to have a bulletproof technical position first. Jed isn't the only
>critic crying for replications before belief.

If the present experiment is verified by 5 or 10 others, and the input is 
confirmed with a few other techniques, it will be believable enough.


>The strategy has been very low key, careful, and stingy.

It is not careful. It is extremely risky. It is not stingy; it is probably 
a waste of money. The academic technique would cost essentially nothing.


>Mills has been carefully seeding the technical literature with papers 
>supporting the existence and properties of hydrinos and experiments with 
>them. Increasingly, these will appear in peer-reviewed journals.

Unless they are written by others who have independently replicated, they 
will count for nothing. If all cold fusion papers in journals were written 
by Pons and Fleischmann, no sensible person would believe them. Arata has 
credibility because McKubre replicated him -- none on his own, by himself.


>The USPTO will then be unable to claim that the Mills patents are invalid 
>because they are not supported by received opinion.

Certainly it will! Until there are hundreds of thousands of people who 
swear they have replicated the effect and sure it is real, the USPTO will 
deny patents to Mills, and to all CF researchers as well. A handful of 
journal papers will make no difference.


>Defending attacks on his patents in court strengthens his positions . . .

In court? In the heart of the establishment? That is like opening an ice 
cream parlor in Hell. The courts, the journals and the USPTO will be very 
last places that fall to Mills. He must first win zealous support from 
millions of people before he has any chance of prevailing in court. After 
every newspaper endorses him and Time magazine make him Man of the Year, 
then -- perhaps -- he can win in court, if he is lucky and the oil industry 
screws up and hires the wrong $1000 per hour lawyer.


>A court battle will attract attention and free publicity. He will win, for 
>court-appointed experts will review the lab results.

No A Chance!!! The way things stand today, any court-appointed expert who 
gives Mills the green light will find himself unemployed for life the next 
morning.


>And Jed, they are there if you will look for them. It depends on how well 
>you understand the technical issues and how severe your test of
>"independence" is. This link 
>http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/validation.pdf gives a validation
>summary

I have seen that document before. It does not begin to qualify as 
independent replication. No one would accept CF on the basis of such 
loosely connected findings. That would be like saying Mizuno's neutron 
results in the mid 1980 verified P&F in 1989.

Look, it is very simple: Other people have to set up the same kind of 
experiment and measure the same kind of excess heat and spectrum changes. 
Once 5 or 10 qualified people do that, and publish detailed descriptions of 
their work, then the claim will be replicated. That is what we demand of 
any scientific claim. Mills does not get a free ride.


>By implication, institutions such as Penn State and Lehigh University were 
>bribed by Mills to report what he wanted.

That's absurd. No one is making such accusations. But people make mistakes. 
Researchers at several institutions thought, at first, they were seeing 
Polywater. One must wait for high quality, high sigma, reasonably similar 
replications before declaring a claims is true -- or false.


>And don't count Scott Little's failure to "replicate" Mills. I have seen the
>setup he used, and in no sense was it a replication of the experimental
>apparatus Mills uses.

The number of failed replications does not matter, as long as there are 
enough good quality positive replication. Hundreds of people tried to 
replicate CF in 1989 but they made elementary mistakes and their failures 
have so significance.


>If you read carefully, they already have been "replicated".

Come now. No one reports excess heat in the range of 1 to 10 watts with 
noble gasses. I would have spotted that. When 5 or 10 people do, that will 
be a replication, not a "replication" with quotes. Experiments that confirm 
the theory are not replications. The definition is quite simple: the same 
physical system produces the same phenomenon.


>You mean cars now don't get better mileage than 20 years ago?

Unfortunately, they get slightly worse mileage than 20 years ago.


>Is the "public" ready to give up comfort and performance for better mileage?

Comfort and performance have nothing to do with it. We need motors with 
better Carnot efficiency, and better streamlining, improved tires and so 
on. Superior technology such as hybrid motors was developed before 1910, 
and applied to railroads and ships in the 1940s. It could have been applied 
in automobiles generations ago. The U.S. would be still be exporting oil 
instead of fighting wars over it. The technology has been blocked by the 
oil industry and by "conservatives" in government, in overt, political 
campaigning. They have duped the public into thinking that safety, comfort 
or performance must be traded off for fuel efficiency. (They are not 
actually conservatives, and certainly not conservationists.)

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 12 10:08:37 2002
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From: "Mark Goldes" <mgoldes msn.com>
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Subject: Re: BLP & LENR: A Perspective Part 2
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Mike,

Thanks for this excellent two part summary of the Mills work.

The late Dr. Robert Carroll, a theoretical physicist who was a consultant to 
Magnetic Power Inc. for 12 years, prior to his death, predicted the 
importance of fractional quantum states during the 1960s.

Arie de Geus,(not to be confused with an ex-Shell oil CEO with a very 
similar name) has also been commercializing a fractional hydrogen system.  A 
PCT Patent application has surfaced which reveals details of his early 
efforts.  Other patents are pending.  He also has developed a comprehensive 
theory, quite different from Mills.  It used to be possible to download it 
from the web for about $60.  If that is still the case, Google may help 
interested parties find it.

Mark

Mark Goldes, CEO
Magnetic Power Inc.
Room Temeprature Superconductors Inc.








>From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
>Subject: BLP & LENR: A Perspective Part 2
>Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:19:12 -0800
>
>Referencing recent exchanges among Jed, Gene and myself. Jed's a good guy 
>at
>heart, but there are some things he doesn't understand about BLP. And
>lurkers here may not understand either. So I will continue a bit, hoping to
>bring understanding and with it less rancor about Mills' intentions and
>strategy.
>--------------------
>LENR meets resistance because if the data are believed, then a major
>overhaul of nuclear physics will be forced and lots of people will have to
>think real hard. The evidence is "excess heat" detected by refined
>calorimetry, nuclear "ash" -- He, T, etc. in trace amounts, and
>transmutation products. The last require sophisticated instruments to
>detect. There is no covering theory. No method of guaranteeing active
>material. Positive reports easily dismissed as error. No desktop toys.
>
>BLP meets resistance because if the data are believed, then a major 
>overhaul
>of chemistry will be forced and lots of people will have to think real 
>hard,
>for the data support Mills' monumental overhaul of 20th century physics. 
>The
>evidence is "excess heat" of large magnitude, extreme ultraviolet radiation
>and the existence of hydrinos, hydrogen atoms whose energy level is less
>than the classical "ground" state.
>---------------------
>Some necessary nomenclature. Mills designates hydrinos this way: H(1/p),
>where p is a parameter indicating the degree of shrinkage. The first stage
>is H(1/2), produced if the energy hole presented by the catalyst fits the
>orbital energy of the hydrogen electron. In some reactions, the energy hole
>is N times greater, N being an integer. Thus there can be H(1/4) in one
>step. It is also possible for two H(1/2) to interact to produce H and
>H(1/3). In the hot plasma cloud of an active cell, anything that can happen
>will happen.
>
>Until very recently, the existence of hydrinos had to be detected by 
>various
>sophisticated technologies because very small quantities were available,
>like the detection of transmutation products in LENR. Mills presented
>various spectral plots showing bumps on curves, whose values he could
>associate with hydrino states by calculation from his theoretical base. Now
>in Jed's world, this is very vaporous, but such correlation between spectra
>and calculations from theory is the bedrock of a very large amount of
>physical theory. A small problem: nobody wants to believe the theory, so 
>the
>data is ignored or attributed to calibration errors or contamination. 
>(Where
>have we heard this before?)
>
>Within recent weeks, Mills has announced liquefaction of a gaseous product
>of a BLP cell in a liquid nitrogen trap. The product has been characterized
>by many techniques, all of which show it to be "new" and Mills shows
>correlation of the signatures with H(1/p).
>
>Hydrinos themselves are chemically inert because the electron is bound
>tightly (below "ground" state) and can't easily exchange with other atoms,
>forming chemical bonds. However, hydrinos can capture electrons, forming
>hydrino hydrides H-(1/p) [conventional negative charge notation doesn't 
>work
>in email]. These can react chemically, but the ionization potential is much
>higher than normal hydrogen so the chemical properties are different. Peter
>Gluck has suggested the term "orbitality" to denote this new and 
>significant
>property of hydrinos.
>
>Small quantities of hydrino compounds have been available for a year or 
>two.
>One is magnetic. Pictures of these are available in several papers on the
>BLP website. I have handled the vials in Mills' conference room. Samples
>have reportedly been given to qualified parties for study. These are 
>"real",
>verifiable evidence of hydrinos.
>
>The catch is that the samples cost thousands of dollars to produce. Unless
>an analysis is done correctly, their special properties will not be seen. 
>If
>company X is curious about application of hydrino compounds for their
>products, then X's lab guys have to be familiar with the chemicals and what
>they can do. That can take much time & money. But most important, company X
>must have assurance of a reliable supply of H-(1/p). Suppose the ideal
>product depends on H-(1/3). Can BLP guarantee a continuous supply in
>quantity? Not now. Can BLP build company X a facility to make pure H-(1/3)?
>Not now, perhaps not for some time.
>-----------------
>LENR desk top "wow" demo that Jed wants would be a thing that once 
>activated
>generates excess heat safely an indefinitely, like a lump of radium that
>heats without killing.
>
>BLP "wow" demo would be a battery with much higher storage capacity than 
>the
>expensive lithium ion batteries used in laptops, camcorders, etc. BLP has
>detected the presence of H(1/16) in the output of some experiments. There 
>is
>a paper showing conceptually how an ion exchange battery chemistry can be
>made using H(1/16). The cell potential is ~70V and the potential energy
>storage density is 600,000 WH/kg. The best exotic battery chemistry now
>available is 300 WH/kg. Batteries with lower values of H(1/p) would have
>less spectacular capacity. Ion exchange chemistry is indefinitely
>rechargeable.
>---------------------
>If BLP could trot out a family of such batteries the entrepreneurial market
>would go wild as Jed has often predicted. All kinds of products would
>result. GM's new platform technology would be a breeze. Wind and solar 
>farms
>could charge batteries to be shipped everywhere. A BLP battery in your car
>would speed you for a thousand miles in style on a single charge.
>
>For all I know, some battery manufacturere may now be working quietly with
>BLP. Note here that the Edison nickel hydride battery chemistry has been
>know for many decades, yet it is only in the last year or two that one cany
>buy them at Radio Shack. I use them, they are clearly superior to NiCd
>batteries for many applications. So while a chemistry looks good at first,
>getting a commercial product may take a very long time.
>
>The BLP reactors producing the H(1/p) material could power cities.
>
>Why hasn't this happened? At present, BLP reactors produce a mix of H(1/p).
>Only in the last few weeks has Mills disclosed that H(1/p) can be liquefied
>at room temperature. The higher the p value, the higher the boiling point.
>This opens a path to purification by fractional distillation, a well
>understood technique. For batteries, the higher the p value, the more 
>potent
>the battery, but high p values may be rare and expensive. Controlling the
>yield of this process is like ordinary process chemistry where you throw
>reagents in a vat, heat and stir, and then try to sort out the reaction
>products. It's going to take a major partner with deep pockets and
>determination to get useful products. BLP can't do this alone.
>
>The story is similar for the "water engine". Getting then plasma energy out
>as heat is very direct, but the losses in a heat cycle generating plant 
>will
>overcome the energy yield for the H(1/2) reaction. Perhaps the reactor must
>operate at an average of , say, p = 6 for the output of a thermal 
>generating
>cycle to produce enough excess energy to electrolyze water and produce the
>hydrogen fuel. I don't know. This is a tough engineering problem. Mills has
>searched diligently for methods of extracting electrical energy directly
>from the plasma. there is progress, but no public evidence of a real good
>technique.
>--------------------
>I hope the above gives some understanding of why Mills has not surfaced 
>with
>gadgets as Jed thinks would create instant public demand. He isn't being
>difficult or greedy. He has to follow Nature's lead, as do the LENR 
>workers.
>Screaming and pouting just doesn't help.
>
>One thing is sure. If Mills "goes public" his position must be technically
>bulletproof and he must have a path to product well laid out. I think he is
>doing very well.
>
>Mike Carrell


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 12 10:28:11 2002
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Subject: Re: Evenson cavity measurements
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Charles Ford wrote:

>I have since had the chance to check out the evenson cavity and it
>basically comes right down to this.
>
>You just measure it. :-)
>
>With an SWR and RF power meter.
>
>just like you do when you are tuning an antenna.

I am pleased to hear it is easy & reliable. Mills' credibility increases 
another notch. BUT, we still need independent replication!


>&#34;Does a different gas behave differently&#34;
>
>yes...
>
>That is why you measure it.

I thought so. Mills should list the reflected power for both gasses.


>Take the reflected power measurement and subtract it from the direct
>power and ''Sha-Zamm!'' you have the absorbed power.  Any setup errors 
>result in a lower absorption (less transfer efficiency) ANY ERRORS.  e.g 
>the cavity is not tuned properly or the cable was not balanced or there is 
>an RF leak   Even if we take these possibilities of a 
>mal-tuned  measurement in to account we still would measure less returned 
>(lower SWR) and assume that more power was adsorbed by the reaction.
>
>All errors result in figures that show LESS reaction power.

The last sentence seems to contradict the previous: "we still would measure 
less returned . . ."

The last sentence seems to mean that all errors underestimate the amount of 
power delivered to the cell. That would misinterpreted as excess heat in 
this case.

Is a 20 watt error possible? Or likely? I doubt it.

- Jed


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Subject: Re: Rothwell is on the money..Mallove has become wacked out
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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On 11/12/02 9:16 AM, "FZNIDARSIC aol.com" <FZNIDARSIC@aol.com> wrote:


Dear Frank,

Thanks for entering the cross fire. You are way off the mark, however.

> If I can see this so to others.  Mallove and Rothwell have different goals.
> Rothwell wants to find new energy.  It is boring and a lot of work.  Mallove
> wants to sell more magazines.

That's garbage, Frank, with all due respect.  I want to find the fastest
possible path to two goals:

1. A raging New Energy revolution ASAP
2. Determine and learn the truth about nature. Specifically, is our present
(establishment model) nearly correct, as you seem to think, or is it way off
in left field, as I think it is.


> It is fun with a lot of hipe.  I only skim
> Mallove's articles while I read everything that Jed writes with great
> interest.

Frank, thanks for the admission that you are not reading (or cannot read)
carefully the excellent science and experimentation in Infinite Energy.
Infinite Energy is not for everyone, to be sure, especially those who think
that the Standard Model is correct, relativity and QM are a complete picture
of the universe, etc.  Jed is a politician/computer entrepreneur/sometimes
historian, not a scientist or engineer. He fancies that he knows how to move
forward in new energy and that his business strategies are supreme.  He has
helped the cause of cold fusion/LENR greatly and will continue to do so, but
he has reached his limits, which are profound.
> 
> As for Mills.  He is off of the mark.  Malwell

Make that Maxwell -- or has Mallove and Maxwell blended together?


> Boltzmann described the
> distribution of kinetic energy in a gas by introducing the quantum condition
> h.  Planck and Einstein extended this idea to the photo electric effect.
> Bohr explained the atom with it.  Schrodinger and Heisenberg explained the
> intensity of the spectral lines using the quantum condition.  Compton
> explained the scattering of X-rays with it.  Over the last 100 years ithe
> quantum condition has proven true.  Astophysicists have found it true on all
> stars in all galaxies.

Astrophysicists cannot even understand a picture that is shoved in front of
them by Hoyle, Arp, and  others -- that show that their basic theory of the
"cosmological" red shift is bogus. How do you expect them to see other
astrophysical evidence such as Mills has stuck in their faces?
> 
> The transitor was developed with this in mind.  Look in front of you at the
> at the computer screen.  The phosphors were developed with the qunatum
> condition in mind.  The same applies the the electric supply to your comuter.
> Again the quantum conditions holds. What about the communications link by
> which you receive this.  Again it is based on the quantum condition.  Now who
> do you believe Mill that the quantum condition does not apply or do you see
> what is before your eyes?

You are fooled by what science bigot/Nobel laureate Steven Weinberg has
called the "unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics."  The actual truth is
that most of the mainstream has been fooled by the "effectiveness of
unreasonable mathematics," which allows them to believe that this or that
theory -- because I fits LOTS of data from LOTS of experiments is
necessarily a proper description of nature. They are blissfully unaware, as
you are Frank, that an infinity of curves (e.g. Multiple theories) can fit
multiple data points (experiments).  We need to find better and better
theories that fit more and more of the data -- not less and less of it. This
is Science 101, which 99.9% of the world's scientists fail to realize. Too
bad for them. Too bad for us. It is the precise reason why cold fusion was
rejected outright on "theoretical grounds" and it continues to be. It is the
same reason that nitwits like David Goodwin of Caltech can state that
"special relativity is a fact, not a theory."
> 
> Again, new energy can be had within what we already know to be true.


You are lost in a forest of confusion, Frank. But I still think you are a
charming guy -- particularly your spelling and in advertent creation de novo
of new words.  Someday we'll stick something in front of you and you'll say,
"Damn, Gene, you were right!"  Then we'll go out and celebrate..

Gene Mallove

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
Director, New Energy Research Laboratory
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816
   editor infinite-energy.com
   www.infinite-energy.com
Ph: 603-228-4516
Fx: 603-224-5975


> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 12 10:41:53 2002
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: New Oriani paper in JJAP
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A marvelous paper! Peter Hagelstein will love this. See:

http://jjap.ipap.jp/journal/pdf/JJAP-41-10R/6180.pdf

You have to register to download this, but registration is free.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Generation of Nuclear Tracks during Electrolysis
R. A. ORIANI and J. C. FISHER

We show that energetic charged particles are produced during electrolysis 
of a D2O solution of Li2SO4 in a cell with a platinum anode and a palladium 
cathode. CR-39 plastic detectors, designed for recording alpha particles 
from radon decay, were immersed in the electrolyte during electrolysis. 
They recorded signi.cantly larger numbers of energetic particle tracks than 
were recorded by control detectors not subject to electrolysis. Statistical 
analysis shows only a 3  106 probability that the electrolysis tracks and 
the control tracks could have arisen from a common population. We conclude 
that there is a causal relationship between electrolysis and the production 
of energetic charged particles. Because track formation requires particle 
energies substantially greater than thermal or electrochemical energies it 
seems inescapable that a nuclear reaction was responsible.

KEYWORDS: electrolysis, heavy water, lithium sulfate, palladium cathode, 
CR-39 detector, particle tracks, energetic particles, nuclear reaction


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Subject: Re: Rothwell is on the money..Mallove has become wacked out
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FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:

>If I can see this so to others.  Mallove and Rothwell have different 
>goals.  Rothwell wants to find new energy.  It is boring and a lot of 
>work.  Mallove wants to sell more magazines.

That is not true. Actually, Mallove and I continue to have the same goals, 
and I remain sympathetic to him. He is presently upset with me, but perhaps 
that will pass. It is unimportant, in any case, since the only thing at 
risk is my e-mail address.

I think Gene sometimes has difficulty distinguishing friends from enemies. 
Correa and others may be taking advantage of him. I have not taken 
advantage of anyone in the CF business yet, mainly for lack of opportunity 
I suppose.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 12 11:01:15 2002
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 m>
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That was supposed to say:

"Statistical analysis shows only a 3 * 10^-6 probability that the 
electrolysis tracks and the control tracks could have arisen from a common 
population."


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 12 11:02:31 2002
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In case anyone is interested, there are now two published PCT applications.

They are:  WO0231833

           NUCLEAR TRANSMUTATIONAL PROCESSES

and

        WO0208787

                    METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR THE PRODUCTION OF SO CALLED 
”FRACTIONAL HYDROGEN” AND
                    ASSOCIATED PRODUCTION OF PHOTON ENERGY










_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* 
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 12 11:04:00 2002
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I wish Chis Tinsley was still among us. He had a way of putting discussions
into perspective.

bv


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 12 11:25:19 2002
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Evenson cavity measurements
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Jed:

I understand it perfectly but my english is sometimes backwards.  :-)

Lower SWR means more power is adsorbed by the reaction.

Any tuning or connectivity booboo results in a higher SWR then what is
true at the cavity.  Therefore actually less energy is making it to the
plasma cloud then you are measureing making the real performance of the
reaction higher then observed.   


--- Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:
> >the cavity is not tuned properly or the cable was not balanced or
> there is 
> >an RF leak   Even if we take these possibilities of a 
> >mal-tuned  measurement in to account we still would measure less
> returned 
> >(lower SWR) and assume that more power was adsorbed by the reaction.
> >
> >All errors result in figures that show LESS reaction power.
> 
> The last sentence seems to contradict the previous: "we still would
> measure 
> less returned . . ."
> 
> The last sentence seems to mean that all errors underestimate the
> amount of 
> power delivered to the cell. That would misinterpreted as excess heat
> in 
> this case.
> 
> Is a 20 watt error possible? Or likely? I doubt it.
> 
> - Jed


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 12 11:41:22 2002
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Subject: Randy Mills chemical "convincer"
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:55:12 -0500
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Hi All.

Jed mentioned noble gasses and OU, as if this was
something new??? Come on Jed, lots of prior art
claims here, one that jumps immediately to mind
was from that wacky character Joseph Papp. You all complain
about Robert Park, imagine having Richard Feynman
debunking you (grin).

http://www.indian-skeptic.org/html/fey1.htm

I don't see what problem everyone has with Randy
Mills. He's a serious researcher, and has accumulated
enough capital to fund his research. By that measure,
he's been a resounding success. Jed wants a
"convincer" gadget to play with; fair enough
but considering the complexity of the technology
this is asking quite a bit.

In fact, Randy seemed to have just that, and it
comes to the point of this post. That business with
the rejection of his chemical patent struck me
as remarkably nasty. For it is the very thing
which could be easily distributed and shown to
be anomalous. It's also the thing most easily
developed and commercialized. I was under the
impression at the time, that Randy was willing
to ship samples of hydrino compounds to anyone
suitably equipped to handle them. I doubt that
is the case now, without legal protection.
Perhaps someone closer to the story can shed
some light here.

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Goldes [mailto:mgoldes msn.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 2:00 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Patent Applications by Arie de Geus


In case anyone is interested, there are now two published PCT applications.

They are:  WO0231833

           NUCLEAR TRANSMUTATIONAL PROCESSES

and

        WO0208787

                    METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR THE PRODUCTION OF SO CALLED
”FRACTIONAL HYDROGEN” AND
                    ASSOCIATED PRODUCTION OF PHOTON ENERGY










_________________________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 12 12:37:42 2002
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Subject: Re: Randy Mills chemical "convincer"
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMEECBDGAA.knagel gis.net>
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>Jed mentioned noble gasses and OU, as if this was something new??? Come on 
>Jed, lots of prior art claims here, one that jumps immediately to mind was 
>from that wacky character Joseph Papp.

Right, yes. I couldn't recall the name. I mentioned this parenthetically: 
"there are scattered, undocumented and unconfirmed reports about heat from 
helium and other noble gasses." There may be others, but as far as I know 
there is no detailed description or paper describing this work.

For people unfamiliar with the story: While Feynman was observing Papp's 
machine, the machine exploded and killed someone.


>I don't see what problem everyone has with Randy Mills. He's a serious 
>researcher, and has accumulated enough capital to fund his research.

That is pretty good, I have to agree. If he were strictly an inventor or a 
corporate researcher, no one could complain, but he seems to want academic 
recognition. He must play by the academic rules for that. He must 
facilitate replications, and teach others, like a professor. He cannot have 
it both ways. I think it would be to his advantage to use the academic 
approach pioneered by P. T. Barnum and T. A. Edison. (Barnum was as much an 
educator as today's "History Channel" executives are.)


>By that measure, he's been a resounding success. Jed wants a
>"convincer" gadget to play with; fair enough but considering the 
>complexity of the technology this is asking quite a bit.

You and Mike Carrell misunderstand the point I am trying to make. I think 
that Mills already has a "convincer" gadget, and he should deploy it. 
Perhaps I am wrong, but from the description I read and the reaction of the 
friendly public that reads papers on LENR-CANR.org, I believe he could 
achieve his goals with that device quickly at practically no expense or 
risk to himself. I fully support his goals, and I would be very pleased to 
see him with three Nobel Prizes and $100 billion, or whatever else he desires.

I have often advocated this strategy. People have *consistently* 
misunderstood me, I think because they have not read history. Researchers 
accuse me of wanting to wrench their discovery out their hands, give it to 
the public for free, and deny them the fruits of their labors. Some have 
accused me of wanting to sell magazines at their expense. Actually, my 
strategy should result in the opposite outcome, if history is any guide.


>That business with the rejection of his chemical patent struck me
>as remarkably nasty.

Yes, and it is NOTHING to what the establishment will do to him next, if he 
does not rally public opinion in his favor. With our new enlightened 
interpretation of the Constitution he may find himself held in a cage in 
Guantanamo without charges, without access to a lawyer, indefinitely, for 
as many years as the oil executives wish.


>I was under the impression at the time, that Randy was willing to ship 
>samples of hydrino compounds to anyone suitably equipped to handle them. I 
>doubt that is the case now, without legal protection.

Probably not. The people opposing him will ensure that he never gets legal 
protection. He and other researchers have foolishly decided not to go 
public without patent protection. This makes it easy to stop them. You 
order P.O. to block them, and boom -- they surrender. Apparently they 
cannot think of any way to strike back. Mike Carrell envisions a 
confrontation with a court-appointed expert telling the truth about the 
experiments. Frankly, that scenario is ridiculous. The expert would be 
fired immediately! There is no high level, James-Bond-movie organized 
conspiracy in Washington against cold fusion, or new CAFE regulations, or 
wind energy. What you find is garden variety power politics, and 
old-fashioned intimidation. Experts foolish enough to defy the APS, the 
NSF, or OPEC are fired and never work in their profession again.

- Jed


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To: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
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	Dear Jed,

	What is "....the evenson cavity...." ?

		Please.

					JH

On Tue, 12 Nov 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Charles Ford wrote:
> 
> >I have since had the chance to check out the evenson cavity and it
> >basically comes right down to this.
> >
> >You just measure it. :-)
> >
> >With an SWR and RF power meter.
> >
> >just like you do when you are tuning an antenna.
> 
> I am pleased to hear it is easy & reliable. Mills' credibility increases 
> another notch. BUT, we still need independent replication!
> 
> 
> >&#34;Does a different gas behave differently&#34;
> >
> >yes...
> >
> >That is why you measure it.
> 
> I thought so. Mills should list the reflected power for both gasses.
> 
> 
> >Take the reflected power measurement and subtract it from the direct
> >power and ''Sha-Zamm!'' you have the absorbed power.  Any setup errors 
> >result in a lower absorption (less transfer efficiency) ANY ERRORS.  e.g 
> >the cavity is not tuned properly or the cable was not balanced or there is 
> >an RF leak   Even if we take these possibilities of a 
> >mal-tuned  measurement in to account we still would measure less returned 
> >(lower SWR) and assume that more power was adsorbed by the reaction.
> >
> >All errors result in figures that show LESS reaction power.
> 
> The last sentence seems to contradict the previous: "we still would measure 
> less returned . . ."
> 
> The last sentence seems to mean that all errors underestimate the amount of 
> power delivered to the cell. That would misinterpreted as excess heat in 
> this case.
> 
> Is a 20 watt error possible? Or likely? I doubt it.
> 
> - Jed
> 
> 

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----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Cc: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Evenson cavity measurements


>
>
> Dear Jed,
>
> What is "....the evenson cavity...." ?
>
> Please.

There is absolutely nothing magical about an "Evanson Cavity" BLP purchased
one from Opthos Instruments Inc. and a data sheet is available at
http://www.e-opthos.com/cavities.htm It is simply a tunable microwave cavity
through which you can slip a tube containing a gas you want to ionize. It
has provision for forced air cooling. It has a coax connector for connection
to a microwave generator.

Mike Carrell





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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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Subject: Re: Randy Mills chemical "convincer"
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:26:12 -0800
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Jed wrote:
<snip>

> >By that measure, he's been a resounding success. Jed wants a
> >"convincer" gadget to play with; fair enough but considering the
> >complexity of the technology this is asking quite a bit.
>
> You and Mike Carrell misunderstand the point I am trying to make. I think
> that Mills already has a "convincer" gadget, and he should deploy it.
> Perhaps I am wrong, but from the description I read and the reaction of
the
> friendly public that reads papers on LENR-CANR.org, I believe he could
> achieve his goals with that device quickly at practically no expense or
> risk to himself.

This seems to be the nub of Jed's problem. He thinks that Mills already has
a "convincer" gadget, and is selfishly withholding it. In this email fracas
messages get out of sequence, but I hope I have made it quite clear that
such a gadget is a fiction in Jed's mind. He pointedly doesn't understand
Mills' work, the problems overcome, and those yet remaining.

I fully support his goals, and I would be very pleased to
> see him with three Nobel Prizes and $100 billion, or whatever else he
desires.

We agree on this. Mills potentially could become deservedly richer than
Gates or he can be swept away.
>
> I have often advocated this strategy. People have *consistently*
> misunderstood me, I think because they have not read history. Researchers
> accuse me of wanting to wrench their discovery out their hands, give it to
> the public for free, and deny them the fruits of their labors. Some have
> accused me of wanting to sell magazines at their expense. Actually, my
> strategy should result in the opposite outcome, if history is any guide.

Jed makes his case well, but it is not the only successful business model.
Even Jed can't fool Mother Nature. >
>
> >That business with the rejection of his chemical patent struck me
> >as remarkably nasty.
>
> Yes, and it is NOTHING to what the establishment will do to him next, if
he
> does not rally public opinion in his favor. With our new enlightened
> interpretation of the Constitution he may find himself held in a cage in
> Guantanamo without charges, without access to a lawyer, indefinitely, for
> as many years as the oil executives wish.

Jed needs to take another look as Mills' board of directors. >
>
> >I was under the impression at the time, that Randy was willing to ship
> >samples of hydrino compounds to anyone suitably equipped to handle them.
I
> >doubt that is the case now, without legal protection.

I think too much is read into the USPTO action and court decision. There
probably is a cabal seeking to thwart Mills, and an attack on a fundamental
patent might scare away investors, and so weaken BLP's survivability. Not
necessarily. The excuse given was the radical nature of the CQM theory, so
'there ain't no such animal'. Recent papers by Mills have sidestepped CQM
altogether by essentially stating what I have called Mills' Rules; a set of
conditions defining reagents in the described process. Mills can get all the
patents he wants on such a basis. They are recipes. They have the
disadvantage that they are individually limited in scope, so someone may
find a way around one or more, and you have to file a lot to cover your
whole hide like fish scales. Patents are licenses to sue, and if infringing
products appear on the market it will be very easy to detect if they are
using BLP materials or processes.

But it's nice to have a fundamental patent on a whole new chemistry to hang
on your wall.

All the court did was to rule that the USPTO was within its legal authority
to withdraw the patent. There will be appeals.

As far as Mills giving samples of hydrino compounds for analysis by
qualified experimenters, there is no problem with this. There will be an
agreement about derivative products and possibly confidentiality. If
derivative products show up, Mills knows how to detect the presence of
hydrinos, and a suit can follow even without a patent. At present BLP is the
sole source, but there is very little preventing anyone with money and
brains from duplicating Mills work if they take him seriously and read his
papers.

Mike Carrell


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Subject: Re: Randy Mills chemical "convincer"
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Mike Carrell wrote:

>This seems to be the nub of Jed's problem. He thinks that Mills already 
>has a "convincer" gadget, and is selfishly withholding it.

Foolishly withholding it. I wish he would act selfishly and propagate it.


>In this email fracas messages get out of sequence, but I hope I have made 
>it quite clear that such a gadget is a fiction in Jed's mind. He pointedly 
>doesn't understand Mills' work, the problems overcome, and those yet remaining.

Perhaps I misunderstand, but this Carrell seems to be contradicting himself 
here. *He* is the one who said the s/n ratio is very high this device. It 
is like a "burning house" so even relatively crude methods work. Assuming 
the input measurement is reliable, I have to agree. The difference between 
~85 and ~107 watts is very large. The paper by Mills and the NASA paper led 
me to believe the effect occurs regularly; it is reasonably reproducible. 
(The issue is not discussed much, but I do not get the impression the graph 
represents one good run out of 50 that failed, like some cold fusion excess 
heat graphs.)

So, if the effect is fairly reproducible, and it really is as high as ~22 
watts, where is the problem? With a gadget like that we would convince 
thousands of people in a few months, and create an international sensation. 
A few months later we would have 250,000 people frantically working on the 
problem, and from then on what Carrell calls:

         "Mills' work, the problems overcome, and those yet remaining."

. . . would be moot. It would no longer be "Mills work," or Mills' 
remaining problems." It would become the central problems of physics; the 
most important job in world; the focus of the thousands of the best minds 
on Earth. The remaining problems, whatever they may be, would be overcome 
more swiftly than Mills can ever hope to fix them.

Isn't that what he wants? That seems to me to be the most desirable outcome 
for him, and for everyone. He would get recognition and a revenue stream -- 
or a revenue Niagara Falls. The Congress would hand him a special patent by 
decree if he desires. He would be acclaimed the most brilliant scientist 
since Einstein. His enemies would evaporate.

If you think this is a fantasy, you need to read the history of the 
photograph, telegraph, the incandescent light, the airplane and the transistor.


And what is the alternative? He will fight for years against overwhelming 
opposition, in a corrupt court system and Patent Office. He is up against 
the Federal Government, for crying out loud! The lap dog of the oil 
interests! When the oil industry snaps its fingers, the government will 
throw away $30 billion in a war to defend oil profits, even when only 60% 
of the voters support war. Does anyone think the government will hesitate 
to crush one lone scientist working in obscurity? There is not the 
slightest chance they will allow him to proceed! That's absurd. They play 
dirty tricks and intimidation games on the wind electricity industry, which 
earns billions of dollars and fights back. If the oil industry ever becomes 
aware of Mills' existence, and takes him seriously, they will crush him 
before breakfast. They will take all of his money, ruin his reputation, put 
him in jail permanently or drive him out of the country, or simply kill 
him. This is real life, not a Frank Capra movie.

- Jed


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Subject: Re: Randy Mills chemical "convincer"
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Jed wrote,

> Mike Carrell wrote:
>
> >This seems to be the nub of Jed's problem. He thinks that Mills already
> >has a "convincer" gadget, and is selfishly withholding it.
>
> Foolishly withholding it. I wish he would act selfishly and propagate it.
>
>
> >In this email fracas messages get out of sequence, but I hope I have made
> >it quite clear that such a gadget is a fiction in Jed's mind. He
pointedly
> >doesn't understand Mills' work, the problems overcome, and those yet
remaining.
>
> Perhaps I misunderstand, but this Carrell seems to be contradicting
himself
> here. *He* is the one who said the s/n ratio is very high this device. It
> is like a "burning house" so even relatively crude methods work. Assuming
> the input measurement is reliable, I have to agree. The difference between
> ~85 and ~107 watts is very large. The paper by Mills and the NASA paper
led
> me to believe the effect occurs regularly; it is reasonably reproducible.
> (The issue is not discussed much, but I do not get the impression the
graph
> represents one good run out of 50 that failed, like some cold fusion
excess
> heat graphs.)

OK, now it comes into closer focus. What Jed is looking at is chart 8 of the
Rowan presentation package. Jed seems to have looked at the relevant BLP
paper, which I listed. In this case water vapor is the fuel. Now let's look
at the rest of the equipment.

Microwave Generator
Opthos Evenson Cavity
Turbomolecular vacuum pump
Water vapor source (heated reservoir)
Pressure and flow regulators

The reaction occurs at a pressure of 50-100 milliTorr, about 1/1000 of
atmospheric pressure. Water vapor was formed externally and flowed into the
cell at a rate of 10 sccm (standard cubic centimeters per minute). The
microwave energy was 2.45 GHz with about 50W power into the cavity. All this
is standard lab stuff, as Jed would approve using. Mills uses it because it
is standard and known.

Yes, the s/n is quite high. Yes, the equipment costs thousands. No, it is
not ready for a sidewalk sale. I have pointed out to Mills that I think it
would scare away a development engineer. Why?

If I were a development engineer, I can't see a product that has to be run
at 2.45 GHz with an Evenson cavity. I need to see a cheaper and more direct
way of producing the essential ionization. Mills has experimented with
several excitation modes in other papers, and they don't behave the same for
reasons that require more study. I have suggested an approach, which Mills
indicated as unfeasible. So I don't know the range of frequencies over which
the excitation will work. I suspect that the 2.45 GHz is simply an FCC
allowed frequency, for the Evenson cavity will  assuredly leak microwaves.
Choose another frequency and there could be major shielding problems to
satisfy the FCC.

The tests are run with a flow of water vapor through the cell, with the low
pressure maintained by a vacuum pump. BLP has a turbomolecular pump which is
capable of reaching high vacuum, not needed here. A "scroll" pump is much
better and requires less power, and BLP has one of these too. Since water is
cheap, one can allow unreacted gases to escape. The flow is small, but the
vacuum pump must work against atmospheric pressure and is therefore doing
work indirectly to vaporize the water, along with the heater in the
reservoir. In the total picture, the heat of vaporization of the water must
be part of the energy budget, which is not included in the Rowan chart.

This is a laboratory kluge. It is nowhere near a product. It's not a toy.
It's not even useful, and the energy budget may be negative when all is
included. To make the reaction run, H2O has to be converted to H + H + O++.
Ionization can do it, but that takes some power. I don't know the power
yield as a function of operating parameters. Mills may not know either. It
requires systematic study which Mills very probably has not done yet. Such
is a job for an engineering lab of a business partner.

I could go on at some length about all of this. I hope Jed gets the point by
now that this demo is not a gadget. In principle, Mills could divert effort
to build a better package, stripping away unessential expense so that a path
to production is clearly visible. This takes a different kind of mindset
than research. It can Gulp-Gone a budget real fast. There may be more
important issues.

I have seen a comment to the effect that BLP is investing effort in building
a laser cavity to work with the water vapor plasma. Experiments indicate
that a powerful hydrogen laser operating from the infrared to ultraviolet
can be built. If BLP can even get a few watts of beam power from this, it
will be singular achievement that will attract scientific as well as
commercial and military attention. It's not a public toy, but it will fit
into a number of very high value niche applications.
>
> So, if the effect is fairly reproducible, and it really is as high as ~22
> watts, where is the problem?

See above.

With a gadget like that we would convince
> thousands of people in a few months, and create an international
sensation.
> A few months later we would have 250,000 people frantically working on the
> problem, and from then on what Carrell calls:
>
>          "Mills' work, the problems overcome, and those yet remaining."
>
> . . . would be moot. It would no longer be "Mills work," or Mills'
> remaining problems." It would become the central problems of physics; the
> most important job in world; the focus of the thousands of the best minds
> on Earth. The remaining problems, whatever they may be, would be overcome
> more swiftly than Mills can ever hope to fix them.

The laser might be one trigger.
>
> Isn't that what he wants? That seems to me to be the most desirable
outcome
> for him, and for everyone. He would get recognition and a revenue
stream --
> or a revenue Niagara Falls. The Congress would hand him a special patent
by
> decree if he desires. He would be acclaimed the most brilliant scientist
> since Einstein. His enemies would evaporate.

And such may happen yet.
>
> If you think this is a fantasy, you need to read the history of the
> photograph, telegraph, the incandescent light, the airplane and the
transistor.

The founders became legends. Photography was a curiosity until Eastman, who
brought together essential known elements into a system that changed the
equation with "You push the button, we do the rest". He could not do this
without the previous technical base, in part established by others. Mills is
engaged in building the technical base.

The telegraph also relied on an existing technical base of
electromagnetism, wire, electric batteries, etc. Morse put things together.
Mills is busy building the technical base.

There were many incandescent lamps before Edison. Edison looked at the
system needs and realized he needed a high resistance lamp that would work
off 100 volts or so. He was stymied until he got a real high vacuum pump
that could produce a hard vacuum so his filaments would not burn up. Mills
is building the technical base.

The transistor relied on decades of investigation of semiconductor physics
and WW2 need for a reliable switch that would protect radar receivers from
the high powered output pulse, which went down the same tube. A junction
diode was reliable and fast enough to protect the receiver. That gave a
basis for pure germanium and it was a couple of small points away from the
point-contact transistor. Without the immense technical and financial
resources of Bell Labs, transistors might have been much, much later. Mills
is building a new technology with a new theory in the face of opposition.

Jed, choose your examples more wisely. You missed here. Land and Eastman and
Edison had the technical and business savvy to put together something new
and create new industries. LENR has no comparable person. But none of these
started from a new insight into physics, generated a sweeping theoretical
structure, built a company, and produced a series of remarkable experimental
results. >
>
<snip political rhetoric>

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 12 21:04:22 2002
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Subject: Does this man know what he is talking about?
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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Does this man know what he is talking
about?</title></head><body>
<div>Thomas Clark posted an article recently which raises some
interesting questions, does anybody know anything about gyrons? Might
gyrons be the same thing as the zitternbegung? How about GWEN radio
towers? I'm planning on visiting the U of M's library to see if they
have the article mentioned at the end of this email.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I am a big fan of Issiac Newton's, I regard him as one of the
finest minds that the human race has ever produced. I recently came
across a website which talks about his writings. While he is most
famous for his work in physics. the majority of his writings are about
alchemy. He also wrote a book on Daniel, which is at the top of my
reading list. I'm also wondering if his writings on alchemy might give
insights into LENR's.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Thomas Clark, is the author of the Radiation Health Foundation's
website, www.rhfweb.com . He has some strange ideas. His writings are
the first I've heard of a Gwen radio towers. These towers and Echelon
satellites. According to Tom, are being used by the powers that be, to
attempt to control his mind, with these and other systems. He has
filed suit against the Federal Government, specifically the NSA.
attempting to get them to stop the broadcasts. Well, hope springs
eternal.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I never disregard a man's ideas because he has some strange
ideas. He posted an article about Newton. Have you ever heard of
Gyrons? According to this article, there are 10 to the 90 of these per
cubic centimeter. That's a big number! The article continues by saying
that these particles collide with each other on a regular basis and
that their energy is totally conserved.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Later he quotes Newton on atoms.<font color="#000000"> to quote
Newton.<i>All these things being consider'd, it seems probable to me,
that God in the Beginning form'd Matter in solid, massy, hard,
impenetrable, moveable Particles, of such Sizes and Figures, and with
such other Properties, and such Proportion to Space, as most conduced
to the End for which he form'd them; and that these primitive
Particles being Solids, are incomparably harder than any porous Bodies
compounded of them; even so very hard, as never to wear or break in
pieces; no ordinary Power being able to divide what God himself made
one in the first Creation</i></font>. Well, he missed on that one. I
wonder what he will have to say about thermonuclear reactions.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>He continues by saying that<font color="#000000"> According to my
model, there are no continuous physical fields in nature. The gyron
collisions are instantaneous events, described by the Dirac delta
functions. Hum,</font> I met an engineer who explained Dirac's delta
function to me, but I can't remember how it works, but I know that it
is important.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>If these gyrons aggregate into electrons, as the article says
that they do, then it would seem to me that the two ideas would be
mutually contradictory.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Tom attributes all this to this article.<font color="#000000">
Frank M. Meno, Phys. Essays<b> 4</b>, 94 (1991).<i>Ibid.</i><b> 7</b>,
450 (1994).<i>Ibid.</i><b> 8</b>, 245 (1995).</font></div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Randy Mills chemical "convincer"
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Mike Carrell wrote:

>Yes, the s/n is quite high. Yes, the equipment costs thousands. No, it is
>not ready for a sidewalk sale. I have pointed out to Mills that I think it
>would scare away a development engineer. Why?

It might scare away development engineers, perhaps most, but it would 
attract hundreds of thousands of others, as well as scientists worldwide. I 
am sure many development engineers would have confidence that they can 
solve the remaining technical problems as quickly as Mills can, or as 
anyone else can. The reward for doing so would be enormous.


>If I were a development engineer, I can't see a product that has to be run 
>at 2.45 GHz with an Evenson cavity.  I need to see a cheaper and more 
>direct way of producing the essential ionization. Mills has experimented 
>with several excitation modes in other papers, and they don't behave the 
>same for reasons that require more study. I have suggested an approach, 
>which Mills indicated as unfeasible. . . .

Mike, you are missing the forest for the trees! This discussion is way off 
base. These issues do not matter. Not in the least! To me, this is as if 
you were to look at the 1908 Wright Flyer and say:


This machine is still extremely dangerous. It has killed several people 
already. The controls are very poorly designed, counter intuitive, and will 
probably kill pilots. (It has already killed several, and will probably 
kill 33 over the next few years.) The liability issue alone makes 
demonstrations and sales completely out of the question. The canard wing 
forward will not work above 40 mph, and in fact it will make it nearly 
impossible to control. There is no landing gear. The motor is so 
underpowered, the airplane cannot get off the ground without a boost from a 
catapult. There is no seat belt and even in a minor accident, the motor is 
likely to break loose and crush the pilot. We must hold the machine off the 
market at least until 1930. To make this practical we need retractable 
landing gear, radios, lights for night flying, reliable engines and a host 
of other breakthroughs.


The technical details listed above are correct as far as I know -- and 
totally irrelevant to the success of the airplane. When the Flyer was 
demonstrated in Paris and Washington, it took the world by storm. Congress 
issued the Wrights gold medals, investors offered millions of dollars. By 
1911 a special issue of Scientific American devoted to aviation reported 
that "more than half a million men are now actively engaged in some 
industrial enterprise that has to do with navigation of the air." Yet even 
then airplanes were impractical deathtraps. Those 500,000 people were 
needed to make them practical. One or two geniuses working in isolation 
could never have done it.


>So I don't know the range of frequencies over which the excitation will 
>work. I suspect that the 2.45 GHz is simply an FCC allowed frequency . . .

Details like this will be worked out by armies of enthusiastic experts. 
Compared to the initial breakthrough made by Mills these details are 
trivial. Nobody remembers the name of the man who invented retractable 
landing gear, but everyone remembers the Wrights. If it is shown that Mills 
is right, his machine works, and his theory explains it, he will be the 
most celebrated, wealthy and respected scientist in history.


>This is a laboratory kluge. It is nowhere near a product.

It does not have to be. The 1908 Flyer was not a Douglas DC3. That was the 
first profitable commercial airplane, and the first reasonably safe, 
practical, quiet and comfortable one. It was introduce in December 1935. 
(All previous civilian airplanes lost money.)


>The founders became legends. Photography was a curiosity until Eastman, 
>who brought together essential known elements into a system that changed 
>the equation with "You push the button, we do the rest".

When photography was announced in 1839, it was an overnight worldwide 
sensation. It swept through Europe and American, and within a few years 
every city and town had photography studios, generating millions of dollars 
in revenue. The discovers became wealthy. However, patents and copyright 
protection was not strong back then, so they did become moguls. A few years 
later, the people who invented and implemented the telegraph such as Morse 
and Cornell *did* become multi-millionaires.


>The telegraph also relied on an existing technical base of
>electromagnetism, wire, electric batteries, etc. Morse put things together.

No, it did not. Actually, all Morse invented was the code. Henry invented 
the technical breakthroughs, but he was a scientist, uninterested in 
profit, so Morse took the credit, and the profit. When Congress 
appropriated $30,000 for the first telegraph line, from Washington to 
Baltimore, the technology was nowhere near ready. All Morse and his 
partners had was a proof of principle machine, chutzpah, sticky fingers, 
influence in high places, and (they were pretty sure) the ability to 
transmit over long distances. Morse's plans called for running lines 
underground, which would never have worked, and for transmission equipment 
that was utterly impractical. When his employees invented better equipment 
that used a sounder instead of making marks on paper, he fired them in a 
fit of jealousy, and forbade the use of it. If they had followed his orders 
the first line would never have worked. A crowd of experienced, savvy 
engineers and builders such as Cornell joined with Morse and invented the 
needed technology in a big hurry, at the taxpayer's expense. One of his 
business partners apparently took a bribe and bought a huge lot of 
defective wire, which almost ruined the project. That was the first telecom 
purchasing agent scandal, but hardly the last! After screwing up and 
wasting huge amounts of public funding, they finally managed to get the 
project to work. Then they got patents, formed private companies, and made 
hundreds of millions of dollars overnight.

The latest telecom scams and scandals carry on the traditions established 
by Morse and his colleagues.

Actually, when the line was first installed, it worked, but no one could 
think of a use for it. A few months went by without a single customer 
sending a message. The Congress and most experts dismissed it as a white 
elephant and a waste of money. It took a while for people to realize how 
valuable it was.


>Mills is busy building the technical base.

He cannot do it single handed, any more than Morse could string telegraph 
wire, or the Wrights could invent retractable landing gear.


>There were many incandescent lamps before Edison. Edison looked at the 
>system needs and realized he needed a high resistance lamp that would work 
>off 100 volts or so. He was stymied until he got a real high vacuum pump 
>that could produce a hard vacuum so his filaments would not burn up.

And much else, but most of it was not ready when he convinced the public in 
December 1879. He was still inventing key parts of the technology two years 
later, and he never did pay for that vacuum pump, as far as I know.  (For 
his whole life he was reportedly trailed by angry crowd of creditors, 
swindled business partners, and alienated employees. He was not a likeable 
fellow.)


>Jed, choose your examples more wisely. You missed here. Land and Eastman 
>and Edison had the technical and business savvy to put together something 
>new and create new industries.

That was 50 years after photography became a multimillion dollar worldwide 
industry.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 13 08:25:26 2002
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Frank Znidarsic's Beliefs
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Frank Znidarsic wrote:


<snip about Jed and Gene's motives>
>
> As for Mills.  He is off of the mark.  Malwell Boltzmann described the
> distribution of kinetic energy in a gas by introducing the quantum
condition
> h.  Planck and Einstein extended this idea to the photo electric effect.
> Bohr explained the atom with it.  Schrodinger and Heisenberg explained the
> intensity of the spectral lines using the quantum condition.  Compton
> explained the scattering of X-rays with it.  Over the last 100 years the
> quantum condition has proven true.  Astophysicists have found it true on
all
> stars in all galaxies.

Frank is confusing "useful" with "true" and is not including pieces that
don't fit. Einstein did not render Newton "wrong", Newton's work became a
special case. Mills' claim for CQM is that Nature obeys a consistent set of
rules over 85 orders of magnitude, and that he has found a way to meld
Maxwell's work with QM. He cites detail observations and a large body of
experimental work to support the claim.
Mill is not "overturning" QM.

Frank should read
http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/technical/Schrodinger%20Paper%205_24_00_W
.pdf  for a discussion by Mills of QM and the hydrogen atom. One thing Mills
points out about quantum mechanics is that it allows a long trial and error
process of calculation to find parameters which will fit an observation.
These parameters are then presented in texts as if they are reasoning form
first principles, which they are not. This gives students a false sense of
surety about the validity of QM.
>
> The transistor was developed with this in mind.  Look in front of you at
the
> at the computer screen.  The phosphors were developed with the quantum
> condition in mind.  The same applies the electric supply to your
computer.
>  Again the quantum conditions holds. What about the communications link by
> which you receive this.  Again it is based on the quantum condition.  Now
who
> do you believe Mill that the quantum condition does not apply or do you
see
> what is before your eyes?

A wholly irrelevant argument, but Frank should have a better grasp of Mills'
theory before he denigrates it. He cites the glowing phosphors on the screen
before us as evidence of the "quantum condition" and fancies that somehow
Mills denies this. If Frank had actually studied Mills' work, he would find
that a key factor is the resonant transfer process whereby energy is
transferred between atoms without ionization. Mills notes that this process
is
well known in chemistry and cites the processes in common phosphors as an
example.
>
> Again, new energy can be had within what we already know to be true.

It happens that the sub-ground state of the hydrogen atom is among what is
already known to be true by senior authors. College texts from which people
commonly learn are subsets of senior texts by earlier authors. Sorry I can't
quote chapter and verse here, but the notion that everything is known about
the hydrogen atom is held by "authorities" like Park and other partially
informed people.

>From another post by Frank:

>Yes, who would ever believe in that (hydrinos).  It goes against 100 years
of science.  It undermines the very tenemenet of modern >science; the
quauntum condtiion.  Bohr came up with this idea and it has proven correct
in every experiment for over 100 years.  The >quantum condition stiates that
the minimum orbital angular momentum is h/6.28

"Correct in every experiment for over 100 years" is pure hubris. There may
be 100 years of experiments that support Bhor's postulate, but that does not
include "all" experiments, especially those of Mills which show the very
clear presence of exceptions.

>I don't believe that we will find new energy by tossing out the known rules
of science.  I do believe that we can find new energy within >the existing
framwork of conservation laws and the quantum condition.

Frank is now expressing a belief. His belief that Mills is tossing out the
known rules of science is mistaken and a result of not studying what Mills
has actually done. Nothing in Mills' work violates conservation laws and if
Frank thinks so, it only indicates how poor his grasp of Mills' work
actually is. He also apparently does not understand Mills' theory.

<snip discussion of Haglestein>

>Mill, however. has a lot of money.  He may stumble on things because he has
the means to do it.  He would get there faster if he had a >real
theoretical structure to guide him.

Here Frank clearly displays his utter ignorance of Mills' work.
"Stumble????"

1) Mills had an inspired insight into the nature of the electron which
enabled him to build a conceptual bridge between Maxwell's classical
electrodynamics and quantum mechanics. This led to his obitsphere model of
the electron.

2) Mills' orbitsphere model implies sub-ground states even though this goes
against the current fashion in physics.

3) About 1989 when F&P were making their splash Mills was motivated to look
for conditions that would enable resonant transfer energy release. He was at
that time working with John Farrell at Franklin & Marshall College and he
asked Farrell to find electronic energy transitions which matched the
potential energy of hydrogen. He found it in K+ and built and electrolytic
cell which turned on immediately and gave excess heat at a time when
investigators of the F&P cells were loading cathodes for weeks or months
hoping for some excess heat.

This in no "stumble". It is direct inference from hypothesis to experiment
and confirmation of hypothesis by experiment.

4) In ensuing years, experiments directed by Mills have consistently shown
features consistent with the existence of hydrinos. He performs calculations
from his theory of spectral lines in lab experiments and astronomical
observations by others and gets consistent matches. This is not "stumbling".

5) In recent months, Mills has published a remarkable series of experiments
very clearly showing existence of hydrinos, including liquefaction of a
novel gas whose characterization is consistent with predictions of hydrino
properties.

6) Mills' experiments are not "stumbles". His theory predicts specific
catalysts which produce dramatic results in experiments. Reagents which are
not predicted to be catalysts, though chemically similar, produce null
results.

All this is perfectly sound experimental science. It is Frank who is far off
the mark.

Mike Carrell



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 13 08:33:09 2002
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Subject: Lipson ICCF-9 paper similar to Oriani
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I should have mentioned that Lipson, Roussetski, Miley and Castano detected 
particles with CR-39, and reported that at ICCF-9. Perhaps that is what 
inspired Oriani. I asked Miley for the paper about that. He just sent me:

"IN-SITU CHARGED PARTICLES AND X-RAY DETECTION IN Pd THIN FILM-CATHODES 
DURING ELECTROLYSIS IN Li2SO4/H2O"

The format is a little messed up. Anyway, I will convert it to .pdf and 
post it on LENR-CANR.org this afternoon. It has a much more detailed 
analysis than Oriani.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 13 09:57:37 2002
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This is a revised resend of a post from yesterday that apparently was =
lost in cyberspace.

Here are some details and commentary from the De Geus patents (which =
does indeed refer to Mills' hydrino work as prior art, but is so close =
in the operating principle that litigation is a certainty if de Geus =
should get something to market first.)=20

You will see near the end of the disclosure that AdG claims his process =
is different from that of BLP, but how it could be unique enough for a =
patent is not clear to me, except that he emphasizes the nucleon for =
purposes of catalysis, while Mills emphasizes the electron. This has =
some important nuances, but the end product, excess energy and "shrunken =
hydrogen", the hydrino, is apparently the same.

To quote: "In this Invention use is made of the properties of certain =
isotopes of
Li, Be and B, which carry an extra neutron, in a function as "nucleonic
catalysts". This is a new concept; so far catalysts always only referred =
to
actions by electrons in the outer shell of atoms."

If Mills "borrowed" anything from de Geus in return, it is probably in =
certain active catalysts, including oxygen (assuming that 17O and 18O =
are active and 16O is not), which Mills did not emphasize until after =
the de Geus disclosures (though O is mentioned as a possibility in later =
editions of Mills' book, along with half the periodic table - at any =
rate, it is clear that almost every element can be mathematically wedged =
into the loose definition that Mills is trying to claim, including a few =
that he has used as controls in the past).

An independent technical report is mentioned in the de Geus filing - a =
lab that is near Atlanta -and perhaps Rothwell, should he want to try to =
verify that the testing was actually done, and knows of the lab, will =
choose to inquire, but they are likely to be under some kind of NDA as =
to the details of the device.

"At this time numerous laboratory runs have been made (more than 1,000 =
hours), during which fractional hydrogen and photon energy were being =
produced.... This process technology has been certified by the well =
known national laboratory:=20
Applied Technical Services Inc.,
1280 Field Parkway,
Marietta, Ga., 30066, USA.
The report number is M14343 and is dated March 01, 2001"

Further info from the De Geus WPO Patent app:

"The background of this Invention relates mostly to astronomical =
observations,
some of which are of the last few decades.

It has been noted that when looking at the Abundancy Curve of the =
elements,
which are known to exist in our universe, that the elements Li, Be and B =
are
very scarce in relation to their location in the Periodical System. (See =
Fig. 1;
the Abundancy Curve of the elements). There must be reasons for this. =
The
factors: pressure, temperature and other parameters e. g. certain =
configurations
in their respective nuclei, whereby these named elements are being =
converted,
apparently are occurring rather frequently in many locations in the =
universe,
wherefore we can assume that the values of the factors which allow =
conversions
of these elements, either'upwardly'via nucleo-synthesis processes into =
heavier
elements, or'downwardly'by means of fission to hydrogen or helium or =
isotopes
thereof (He2, He2, H3, HI2, Hl) are favorable for such conversions to =
take
place. Also it became clear to Inventor that certain isotopes of Li, Be =
and B
can act as catalysts in certain processes. Whereas these elements carry =
few
electrons, their nuclei are easily approachable by elementary =
"particles", e. g.
protons. In this Invention use is made of the properties of certain =
isotopes of
Li, Be and B, which carry an extra neutron, in a function as"nucleonic
catalysts". This is a new concept; so far catalysts always only referred =
to
actions by electrons in the outer shell of atoms."

In the following there is a comparison of energy yields between the =
process of
this Invention with: a. Thermo-nuclear Fusion b. Conventional Combustion =
of
hydrogen with oxygen.

Assume"fractional hydrogen"is being formed from the "ground-state" to =
"state"
n=3D1/6 ; then photon energy is emitted of about-KeV and if the"state"of =
n=3D-were
2 9 reached then about l. lKeV is emitted. E. g. if an electron were to =
go from
n=3D-on=3D-then roughly 1KeV=3D1.6#10-16 Joule energy becomes available. =
Considering: Thermo-nuclear Fusion in the sun: (See many publications on =
this subject matter, e. g. in Scientific American, by John Bahcall of
Cal. Tech)  This shows that the energy yield of the process of this
Invention is in the 1/1000x category compared to the yield of =
thermo-nuclear
fusion in the sun and which after many years of research and billions of =
dollars
of expenses has never been copied on any sustainable basis on earth.

Considering: Conventional Combustion of hydrogen with oxygen. The energy
produced by molecular hydrogen combustion is 51,600 BtulLb, which is =
118,700 kSlkg. One mole of hydrogen contains 6X1023 molecules (Avogadro =
nr.); molecular weight of hydrogen being 2, means that that the energy =
per hydrogen atom is 118.7 kJ/gr, divided by 6x1023, which is 1.2516per =
hydrogen atom. The conclusion is that the process of this Invention is =
in the category of producing 500-1000x more energy per atom of hydrogen =
than the combustion process can produce, wherefore the technology of =
this Invention provides for a'quantum leap' in progress for the =
production of energy.=20

Recent lab runs show substantial overunity Outgoing electric power and =
heat together are substantially (e. g. > 4 x) greater than the required =
ingoing electric power. Two control mechanisms are desirable: a. The =
intermittent addition of hydrogen be controlled by the pressure and =
possibly also by removal of "fractional and bi-electronic hydrogen''for =
temporary storage for later use purposes. b. The voltage differential =
between cathode and anode be controlled majorly by temperature and =
minorly by the pressure. In a newer further improved process version, no =
addition of hydrogen during operations is needed, because of a secondary =
and simultaneously running nuclear transmutational process which =
produces protons. Also protons are produced if some "fractional =
states''convert into lower fractional states''according to formula (6), =
although this last named process would not produce enough protons to =
keep the process continually going, wherefore the need for the nuclear =
transmutational process.

In the event that fractional and bi-electronic hydrogen''are removed =
during
process operations, then a secondary evacuating pump and storage are =
needed. Such a sub-system is shown in Fig. 9."Fractional hydrogen can =
react again with "ground- state" in a reactor with cathode and anode and =
having a voltage differential between those and produce radiative =
energy. Bi- electronic hydrogen can (upon ionization to negatively =
charged hydrogen ions) form new
molecules/materials hitherto unknown.

One can logically assume that process conditions vary widely as to
which "nucleonic catalyst" is being used. Furthermore many dimensional =
parameters and alloy composition parameters greatly influence the energy =
production. Energy is being produced in two locations: a. In the cathode =
area 40-80% of the total energy.

Radiation is Soft X-ray, extreme UV and some violet to blue. This =
radiation can
be directly converted into electrical power by using the photo-electric =
effect,
wherefore there are a photo-cathode and a photo-anode around the =
cathode. The wavelengths of this radiation is such that the =
surface-exit-energy" (is the
"workfunction") of the electrons in certain metals, e. g. Cs, Rb, Na, K, =
Ba,
Srhas been surpassed.

The first and second fractional series" radiation can also free =
electrons out e.
g. Cu and Zn. b. In the ionization area 20-60% of the total energy. =
Radiation is from the blues to pink. This radiation is best used as =
heat, either directly or for
powering a thermo-dynamic cycle, including a Stirling cycle.

With reference to a., two modes of construction have proven to be =
possible. One is featuring a chamber around the cathode area from which =
it is separated by a radiation transmitting material, e. g. quartz. =
Inside the chamber are the
photo-cathode as a shield against the outer wall of this chamber and the
photo-anode, which can be either against the sides of said chamber or be =
a
screen diametrically inside of the photo-cathode. The photo-anode be =
made of an electro- conductor. If the photo-cathode is covered with an =
element with a
relatively low energy "workfunction", e. g. Cs, Rb, Na, K, Ba, Sr, then =
this
chamber must be void of oxygen, wherefore it must be first evacuated and =
then
filled with an inert gas, e. g. Ar. The second mode of construction, =
which was
discovered in the fall of 2000 is by bringing the photo-cathode and =
photoanode
inside the reactor, but being electro-magnetically isolated from the
electro-static and electro-magnetic fields which exist between the =
cathode and
anode in the reactor. This isolation is established by constructing a so =
called
Cage of Faraday'' around the cathode assembly, which allows sufficient =
space for the electro-static and electro-magnetic fields, so that =
protons can approach the cathode unhindered at all locations. The =
openings in the "Cage of Faraday''as well as the openings in the =
photoanode are sufficiently large and best also aligned with each other, =
so as to allow that radiation from the cathode can easily reach the =
photo-cathode. In operation small voltage differentials are in effect =
between the photocathode and photo-anode, respectively "Cage of =
Faraday".

Substantial electric currents then result if sufficient radiation of =
short
enough wavelengths is available. This electric power is electronically =
converted
to a DC status at a voltage level, so that it can be directly used for =
powering
the primary electrical circuit (of which the cathode and anode are part) =
and/or
be stored into the intermediate electric power storage (small battery). =
If the
electric power production is greater than the electric power use =
("overunity"),
then the excess power is available for whatever use. Also electric power =
can be
substantially produced from that part of the radiation in the ionization =
area,
which is in the 400nm-900nm range, by using GaAs/Gephoto-voltaic cells. =
The
electrical output efficiency runs up to 20% of all radiation in the =
ionization
area which is in the 400nm-900nm range. The remaining 80% becomes =
available as heat.

Some heat is produced in the cathode area although most radiation in =
this
location is of sufficiently short wavelengths that direct photo-electric
conversion can take place; the majority of the heat (80% plus) is =
produced in
the ionization and anode areas. This heat can be used either directly or =
for
powering a cycle system (e. g. a Stirling system). Fig. 8 shows a =
reactor system with an annular space surrounding its cathode area, from =
which photo- electricity is being produced and a jacket around the =
ionization area for the collection of the convective heat, which is =
produced by this area. Fig. 9 shows a reactor system, which has a =
diametrically enlarged cathode area in which the"Cage of Faraday''and =
photo-cathode and photoanode are located and from which the =
photo-electricity is being produced as well as a jacket around the =
ionization area for the collection of the convective heat, which is =
produced by this area.=20

End of quotes from WPO application



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<DIV>This is a revised resend of a post from yesterday that apparently =
was lost=20
in cyberspace.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Here are some details and commentary from the De Geus patents =
(which does=20
indeed refer to Mills' hydrino&nbsp;work as prior art, but is so close =
in the=20
operating principle that litigation is a certainty if de Geus should get =

something to market first.) </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>You will see near the end of the disclosure that AdG claims his =
process is=20
different from that of BLP, but how it could be unique enough for a =
patent is=20
not clear to me, except that he emphasizes the nucleon for purposes of=20
catalysis, while Mills emphasizes the electron. This has some important =
nuances,=20
but the end product, excess energy and "shrunken hydrogen", the hydrino, =
is=20
apparently the same.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>To quote: "In this Invention use is made of the properties of =
certain=20
isotopes of<BR>Li, Be and B, which carry an extra neutron, in a function =
as=20
"nucleonic<BR>catalysts". This is a new concept; so far catalysts always =
only=20
referred to<BR>actions by electrons in the outer shell of =
atoms."<BR><BR>If=20
Mills "borrowed" anything from de Geus in return, it is probably in =
certain=20
active catalysts, including oxygen (assuming that 17O and 18O are active =
and 16O=20
is not), which Mills did not emphasize until after the de Geus =
disclosures=20
(though&nbsp;O is mentioned as a possibility in later editions of Mills' =
book,=20
along with half the periodic table - at any rate, it is clear that =
almost every=20
element can be mathematically wedged into the loose definition that =
Mills is=20
trying to claim, including a few that he has used as controls in the=20
past).<BR><BR>An independent&nbsp;technical report is mentioned in the =
de Geus=20
filing - a lab that is near Atlanta -and perhaps Rothwell, should he =
want to try=20
to verify that the testing was actually done, and knows of the lab, will =
choose=20
to inquire, but they are likely to be under some kind of NDA as to the =
details=20
of the device.<BR><BR>"At this time numerous laboratory runs have been =
made=20
(more than 1,000 hours), during which fractional hydrogen and photon =
energy were=20
being produced.... This process technology has been certified by the =
well known=20
national laboratory: </DIV>
<DIV>Applied Technical Services Inc.,<BR>1280 Field =
Parkway,<BR>Marietta, Ga.,=20
30066, USA.<BR>The report number is M14343 and is dated March 01,=20
2001"<BR><BR>Further info from the De Geus WPO Patent app:<BR><BR>"The=20
background of this Invention relates mostly to astronomical=20
observations,<BR>some of which are of the last few decades.<BR><BR>It =
has been=20
noted that when looking at the Abundancy Curve of the elements,<BR>which =
are=20
known to exist in our universe, that the elements Li, Be and B =
are<BR>very=20
scarce in relation to their location in the Periodical System. (See Fig. =

1;<BR>the Abundancy Curve of the elements). There must be reasons for =
this.=20
The<BR>factors: pressure, temperature and other parameters e. g. certain =

configurations<BR>in their respective nuclei, whereby these named =
elements are=20
being converted,<BR>apparently are occurring rather frequently in many =
locations=20
in the universe,<BR>wherefore we can assume that the values of the =
factors which=20
allow conversions<BR>of these elements, either'upwardly'via =
nucleo-synthesis=20
processes into heavier<BR>elements, or'downwardly'by means of fission to =

hydrogen or helium or isotopes<BR>thereof (He2, He2, H3, HI2, Hl) are =
favorable=20
for such conversions to take<BR>place. Also it became clear to Inventor =
that=20
certain isotopes of Li, Be and B<BR>can act as catalysts in certain =
processes.=20
Whereas these elements carry few<BR>electrons, their nuclei are easily=20
approachable by elementary "particles", e. g.<BR>protons. In this =
Invention use=20
is made of the properties of certain isotopes of<BR>Li, Be and B, which =
carry an=20
extra neutron, in a function as"nucleonic<BR>catalysts". This is a new =
concept;=20
so far catalysts always only referred to<BR>actions by electrons in the =
outer=20
shell of atoms."<BR><BR>In the following there is a comparison of energy =
yields=20
between the process of<BR>this Invention with: a. Thermo-nuclear Fusion =
b.=20
Conventional Combustion of<BR>hydrogen with =
oxygen.<BR><BR>Assume"fractional=20
hydrogen"is being formed from the "ground-state" to "state"<BR>n=3D1/6 ; =
then=20
photon energy is emitted of about-KeV and if the"state"of n=3D-were<BR>2 =
9 reached=20
then about l. lKeV is emitted. E. g. if an electron were to go=20
from<BR>n=3D-on=3D-then roughly 1KeV=3D1.6#10-16 Joule energy becomes =
available.=20
Considering: Thermo-nuclear Fusion in the sun: (See many publications on =
this=20
subject matter, e. g. in Scientific American, by John Bahcall of<BR>Cal. =

Tech)&nbsp; This shows that the energy yield of the process of =
this<BR>Invention=20
is in the 1/1000x category compared to the yield of =
thermo-nuclear<BR>fusion in=20
the sun and which after many years of research and billions of =
dollars<BR>of=20
expenses has never been copied on any sustainable basis on=20
earth.<BR><BR>Considering: Conventional Combustion of hydrogen with =
oxygen. The=20
energy<BR>produced by molecular hydrogen combustion is 51,600 BtulLb, =
which is=20
118,700 kSlkg. One mole of hydrogen contains 6X1023 molecules (Avogadro =
nr.);=20
molecular weight of hydrogen being 2, means that that the energy per =
hydrogen=20
atom is 118.7 kJ/gr, divided by 6x1023, which is 1.2516per hydrogen =
atom. The=20
conclusion is that the process of this Invention is in the category of =
producing=20
500-1000x more energy per atom of hydrogen than the combustion process =
can=20
produce, wherefore the technology of this Invention provides for =
a'quantum leap'=20
in progress for the production of energy. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Recent lab runs show substantial overunity Outgoing electric power =
and heat=20
together are substantially (e. g. &gt; 4 x) greater than the required =
ingoing=20
electric power. Two control mechanisms are desirable: a. The =
intermittent=20
addition of hydrogen be controlled by the pressure and possibly also by =
removal=20
of "fractional and bi-electronic hydrogen''for temporary storage for =
later use=20
purposes. b. The voltage differential between cathode and anode be =
controlled=20
majorly by temperature and minorly by the pressure. In a newer further =
improved=20
process version, no addition of hydrogen during operations is needed, =
because of=20
a secondary and simultaneously running nuclear transmutational process =
which=20
produces protons. Also protons are produced if some "fractional =
states''convert=20
into lower fractional states''according to formula (6), although this =
last named=20
process would not produce enough protons to keep the process continually =
going,=20
wherefore the need for the nuclear transmutational process.<BR><BR>In =
the event=20
that fractional and bi-electronic hydrogen''are removed =
during<BR>process=20
operations, then a secondary evacuating pump and storage are needed. =
Such a=20
sub-system is shown in Fig. 9."Fractional hydrogen can react again with =
"ground-=20
state" in a reactor with cathode and anode and having a voltage =
differential=20
between those and produce radiative energy. Bi- electronic hydrogen can =
(upon=20
ionization to negatively charged hydrogen ions) form =
new<BR>molecules/materials=20
hitherto unknown.<BR><BR>One can logically assume that process =
conditions vary=20
widely as to<BR>which "nucleonic catalyst" is being used. Furthermore =
many=20
dimensional parameters and alloy composition parameters greatly =
influence the=20
energy production. Energy is being produced in two locations: a. In the =
cathode=20
area 40-80% of the total energy.<BR><BR>Radiation is Soft X-ray, extreme =
UV and=20
some violet to blue. This radiation can<BR>be directly converted into =
electrical=20
power by using the photo-electric effect,<BR>wherefore there are a =
photo-cathode=20
and a photo-anode around the cathode. The wavelengths of this radiation =
is such=20
that the surface-exit-energy" (is the<BR>"workfunction") of the =
electrons in=20
certain metals, e. g. Cs, Rb, Na, K, Ba,<BR>Srhas been =
surpassed.<BR><BR>The=20
first and second fractional series" radiation can also free electrons =
out=20
e.<BR>g. Cu and Zn. b. In the ionization area 20-60% of the total =
energy.=20
Radiation is from the blues to pink. This radiation is best used as =
heat, either=20
directly or for<BR>powering a thermo-dynamic cycle, including a Stirling =

cycle.<BR><BR>With reference to a., two modes of construction have =
proven to be=20
possible. One is featuring a chamber around the cathode area from which =
it is=20
separated by a radiation transmitting material, e. g. quartz. Inside the =
chamber=20
are the<BR>photo-cathode as a shield against the outer wall of this =
chamber and=20
the<BR>photo-anode, which can be either against the sides of said =
chamber or be=20
a<BR>screen diametrically inside of the photo-cathode. The photo-anode =
be made=20
of an electro- conductor. If the photo-cathode is covered with an =
element with=20
a<BR>relatively low energy "workfunction", e. g. Cs, Rb, Na, K, Ba, Sr, =
then=20
this<BR>chamber must be void of oxygen, wherefore it must be first =
evacuated and=20
then<BR>filled with an inert gas, e. g. Ar. The second mode of =
construction,=20
which was<BR>discovered in the fall of 2000 is by bringing the =
photo-cathode and=20
photoanode<BR>inside the reactor, but being electro-magnetically =
isolated from=20
the<BR>electro-static and electro-magnetic fields which exist between =
the=20
cathode and<BR>anode in the reactor. This isolation is established by=20
constructing a so called<BR>Cage of Faraday'' around the cathode =
assembly, which=20
allows sufficient space for the electro-static and electro-magnetic =
fields, so=20
that protons can approach the cathode unhindered at all locations. The =
openings=20
in the "Cage of Faraday''as well as the openings in the photoanode are=20
sufficiently large and best also aligned with each other, so as to allow =
that=20
radiation from the cathode can easily reach the photo-cathode. In =
operation=20
small voltage differentials are in effect between the photocathode and=20
photo-anode, respectively "Cage of Faraday".<BR><BR>Substantial electric =

currents then result if sufficient radiation of short<BR>enough =
wavelengths is=20
available. This electric power is electronically converted<BR>to a DC =
status at=20
a voltage level, so that it can be directly used for powering<BR>the =
primary=20
electrical circuit (of which the cathode and anode are part) =
and/or<BR>be stored=20
into the intermediate electric power storage (small battery). If =
the<BR>electric=20
power production is greater than the electric power use =
("overunity"),<BR>then=20
the excess power is available for whatever use. Also electric power can=20
be<BR>substantially produced from that part of the radiation in the =
ionization=20
area,<BR>which is in the 400nm-900nm range, by using =
GaAs/Gephoto-voltaic cells.=20
The<BR>electrical output efficiency runs up to 20% of all radiation in =
the=20
ionization<BR>area which is in the 400nm-900nm range. The remaining 80% =
becomes=20
available as heat.<BR><BR>Some heat is produced in the cathode area =
although=20
most radiation in this<BR>location is of sufficiently short wavelengths =
that=20
direct photo-electric<BR>conversion can take place; the majority of the =
heat=20
(80% plus) is produced in<BR>the ionization and anode areas. This heat =
can be=20
used either directly or for<BR>powering a cycle system (e. g. a Stirling =

system). Fig. 8 shows a reactor system with an annular space surrounding =
its=20
cathode area, from which photo- electricity is being produced and a =
jacket=20
around the ionization area for the collection of the convective heat, =
which is=20
produced by this area. Fig. 9 shows a reactor system, which has a =
diametrically=20
enlarged cathode area in which the"Cage of Faraday''and photo-cathode =
and=20
photoanode are located and from which the photo-electricity is being =
produced as=20
well as a jacket around the ionization area for the collection of the =
convective=20
heat, which is produced by this area. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>End of quotes from WPO application</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C28AF9.E4B126A0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 13 10:34:17 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: A response to the Oriani paper from s.p.f.
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It is not normally a good idea to cross-post messages from s.p.f., but 
perhaps this one deserves exposure.

- JR

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Originally-From: kirk.shanahan srs.gov (Kirk L. Shanahan)
Newsgroups: sci.physics.fusion
Subject: Re: Oriani & Fisher in JJAP
Date: 13 Nov 2002 09:15:34 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
"Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote in message 
news:<3dd16e6f$1_2 nopics.sjc>...
 > Here is a marvelous paper! This is similar to the results reported at 
ICCF-9
 > by Miley et al. See:
 >
 > http://jjap.ipap.jp/journal/pdf/JJAP-41-10R/6180.pdf
 >
 > You have to register to download this, but registration is free.
 > - Jed
 > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Comments on R. A. Oriani and J. C. Fisher,
"Generation of Nuclear Tracks during Electrolysis"
Jpn. J. Appl. Phys. 41 (2002) 6180

Executive Summary
-----------------
Unfortunately, the evidence presented is inconclusive and the analysis is 
incorrect. There is in fact no statistical proof there is any excess tracks 
formed in the electrolytic cells, and even if there were, there is 
considerable concern that other, mundane chemical processes could produce 
the proposed noted effects.

Discussion
----------
Oriani and Fisher (O&F) have placed CR-39 plates in close proximity to Pd 
and Pt electrodes in working electrolysis cells, and claim to observe an 
increase in the area density of tracks in so treated CR-39 plates when
compared to control plates. This supposedly implies a nucelar reaction 
giving rise to charged energetic particles that impact the CR-39 and cause 
damage that is later chemically developed (etched) for a visible count of 
particles observed.

They present 35 experimental results in their Table 1, broken into 
two  parts, 27 in the 'active' category and 8 in the 'control' category. 
They then claim to determine statistically that the track area density has 
changed, from a mean of the logarithm of tracks/cm2 for the control group 
of 2.187 to 2.801 for the 'electrolyzed' CR-39 chips. The logarithm 
transform is used since the raw data are not randomly distributed.

Unfortunately, the average of the log base 10 values of the active chips is 
2.372 for the controls and 2.565 for the active chips, which is not what 
was reported. Apparently O&F have incorrectly computed something. 
Furthermore O&F attempt to statistically prove that the observed difference 
is statistically significant, but they do not apply the correct statistical 
methodology. Based on methods given to me by the corporate statisticians
of DuPont Corporation (which are the same as those presented in Snedecor 
and Cochran, "Statistical Methods', 7th ed., section 6.11 , p.96 (=S&C)), 
the statistical test is to compute a confidence interval about the difference
and see whether it includes 0 at a given confidence level. (Normally one 
uses either the 95% or 99% confidence level.) This computation must be for 
different sized populations with different estimated standard deviations
(checked via an F-test). The confidence interval (CI) computed using the 
mean and variance of the reported data (Table 1) is then:

CI = .1930 +/- t * .1838

S&C note that the t for such a case is not the normal Student t, and give 
an approximation to real one, via an approximated degrees of freedom value 
(p. 97). I compute that value as 11, and t(95%)= 2.20 and t(99%)=3.11.
Thus it is clear that the CI includes 0 and the difference in means is not 
statistically significant. (Note that pratically _any_ t value would lead 
to the same conclusion.)

In the end, this result could be anticipated just by looking at the data 
table. The control values are bracketed by the active values. HOWEVER, 
there is another problem that the JJAP reviewers missed, namely, O&F 
compute an average of 987 track/cm2 for the active plates, while I compute 
725. But there is a break in the active data after the 14th point. However 
the average of the 1st 14 points is 1269. Now, 10^2.801= 632, so that's no 
help. The data after the 14th point are all less than 261, so that also 
doesn't lead to 987 either. I never did figure out where they
got 987. They imply in their statistics that they are using the data of 
Table 1, since they mention 35 data points. Their Table caption also 
mentions 'all' chips are represented. But in the end, they clearly made 
some serious error between data analysis and publication that must be 
cleared up.

At this point, their claim is refuted, on the simple basis of correct math. 
However, let's assume that there is a trivial explanation for this problem, 
and that they will correct it and arrive at the same conclusion, i.e. that 
there is a real difference. The question becomes how can I explain that 
supposed observation. As you may recall, I have postulated that apparent 
excess arises due to a calibration constant shift, which in turn arises 
because of a redistribution of heat sources in the cell. I also speculate 
further that the electrode surfaces becomes 'active' to normal 
recombination. This implies that there are miniature chemical explosions 
(H2/D2 + O2) occurring at the electrode.

The CR-39 plates are placed in close proximity to the electrodes, sometimes 
even between them, and represent about half of the available 
cross-sectional area of the cell. (This is a major disturbance in and of 
itself, and the cases of above and between ought to be discussed 
separately, at least to establish whether they are the same or different.) 
The speculation is what exploding bubbles of D2+O2 would do to the Cr-39 
material. I find it hard to exclude, a priori, a chemical effect of this on 
the CR-39, which would then be observed by 'etched tracks' in the developed 
plates. Clearly, any such effect should be quite position dependent, and 
that whole aspect should be more fully explored than it is in the paper. 
While they did place controls in the electrolyte (separately, no 
electrolysis ongoing) and test what unreactive D2 bubbles might do, I 
contend that that does not simulate the physical/chemical action of 
exploding D2+O2 bubbles, possibly right on the CR-39 plates.

I'd also like to comment that O&F do a lot of 'judging' of what to count as 
a track and what not. I'd like to see some data to convince me they are 
doing a good job of that.

In any case, we are again presented with inadequate data poorly analyzed 
but used to prove 'nuclear' reactions are present. I don't think so...
---
Kirk Shanahan {My opinions...noone else's}
--------------------


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 13 11:36:15 2002
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Peter Hagelstein to Give Cold Fusion Talk at MIT
References: <B9DEC2F8.4BF9%editor infinite-energy.com>
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>
> SPECIAL RLE SEMINAR
>
> Monday, November 4, 2002
> Grier Room B, 34-401B
>
> Refreshments at 3:45 PM
> Talk at 4:00 PM
>
> Are there New Physical Mechanisms Associated
> with the Anomalies in Metal Deuterides?
>
> Professor Peter L. Hagelstein
> MIT

I was hoping to see some comments on the talk on Vortex from someone 
else.  Since no one has posted anything about it, I will.

I attended the talk with a friend who was a staunch "non-believer", and 
we were both extremely impressed (the friend is no longer a 
non-believer).  Unfortunately the QM left me in the dust, so I can't say 
anything very intelligent about the technical details.  However, there 
were a couple of overall points that even someone with my limited QM 
background could grasp:

  -- Hagelstein's theory seems to explain most of the results which have 
been seen to date in the cold fusion arena.  He didn't go into detail on 
all the various effects that have been seen, but he talked about several 
and claimed to have analyzed more that he didn't go into.

  -- If I understood what he said correctly, he has predicted anomalous 
effects that hadn't been seen yet, and had them verified subsequently by 
later experiments.  This, by itself, seems to go a long way toward 
vindicating his theory.

So, if you have any kind of background in QM, it's worth making the 
effort to find the text of the talk, assuming it's published in IE (or 
elsewhere).  If you have to subscribe to IE just to get the text of this 
single talk, it would probably be worth it.

Since no comments, however sketchy, would be complete without _some_ 
mention of what he said :-) , here's a very brief summary of some high 
points.  This is from memory -- I didn't take notes during the talk 
(whole thing should be in IE anyway, right?).

He started by reviewing the results in the field.  That was pretty 
impressive by itself, but I suspect the same information is also 
available on Dr. Storms' web site.

After the review, he went into a brief discussion of his original theory 
from 1989, which was that there is a phonon exchange between the active 
site and the Pd lattice, which carries off the energy of the fusion 
reaction.  He explained at some length why that didn't pan out (several 
slides of lots of equations...); in summary, the coupling to the lattice 
was too weak.

Next, he considered the notion that there was a three-way coupling 
between _two_ active sites and the lattice.  The first active site would 
contain two D nuclei smooshed into a single lattice cell (apparently 
legal, though an unusual configuration).  The second active site would 
be a Pd atom.  The energy from the D-D fusion would be transfered via 
phonons through the lattice to the Pd nucleus, which would fission 
(well, it sounds like fission to me, anyway) by spitting out an alpha 
particle, leaving an Ru nucleus behind (is that Rubidium?  Ruthenium? 
Uh... chemistry too many years in the past, and I haven't looked it up).

This was more promising, but apparently the phononic coupling is still 
too weak to make it fly.

Finally, he said he considered the case where _many_ active sites were 
coupled at once.  At this point I started getting pretty lost, but I'll 
slog on in the hope that someone will at least find my blurry notes of 
some interest.

Here we have a side excursion.  He asked what, given this theory, the 
dominant reaction should be.  It turns out it's _not_ D+D+Pd -> 
He+Ru+Alpha.  Rather, it's D+D+He -> He+D+D.  In other words, two D 
nuclei at one site fuse, and an He at another site in the lattice 
fissions into two D nuclei which are left in very close proximity to 
each other.  At this point he spent a while discussing the angular 
momentum of the system, and about the most I can say is that angular 
momentum considerations provide the solution to how the two D nuclei can 
remain stably in close proximity to each other after the He fissions, 
and they also result in what's nearly a requirement for phonon 
interactions -- it's the phonons that carry the angular momentum around 
and make the whole thing balance.

So, it turns out that what's actually going on in a CF cell is lots of 
"null reactions", where two D's get together and an He splits, with a 
very occasional reaction involving two D's and a Pd, which is where the 
occasional high energy alpha particle (and the heat?) comes from.

And (I think) many of these active sites with D-D pairs and He nuclei 
are coupled at once.  And when he worked out the coupling with _that_ 
assumption, it was adequate to make the whole thing go.

By the way, when questioned about the source of the helium, I believe he 
asserted that there's normally enough helium left in the Pd from the 
manufacturing process to get the reactions started.  There's no need to 
assume that some gets added from side reactions or from captured alpha 
particles.

He then asked if we could possibly detect this "null reaction", and went 
on to say that we could.  If this is really going on, then there should 
be many D-D pairs in very close proximity, and that should have 
consequences.  In particular, if one bombards the system with energetic 
particles, one should occasionally see two D nuclei participating in the 
same collision -- and for anything more coherent on this particular 
topic you'll need to get the transcript.  Suffice it to say that he 
predicted an effect here which was subsequently observed, thus providing 
evidence that his "null reaction" is really taking place during CF.

Last, I should mention that he referred frequently to "optical phonons". 
Apparently the phonons that are carrying the energy are themselves 
highly energetic -- if I understand the term, it means that they're 
carrying about as much energy as visible-light photons (can that be 
right?).  In response to a question from the floor, he asserted that 
when D falls down the energy gradient into a Pd lattice in a CF cell, it 
generates optical phonons -- his actual statement was something like 
"That's about the best way to generate optical phonons I can think of".

And that's about as much as I can put together.  Apologies for taking up 
time and space, if it doesn't turn out to be of interest.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 13 12:05:20 2002
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <F11Tr9rf3yXvEbjkyqU00007582 hotmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20021112144444.03a18330@mail.DIRECTVInternet.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20021112173548.039d8998@mail.DIRECTVInternet.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20021113100421.02cab278@mail.DIRECTVInternet.com>
Subject: Re: Randy Mills chemical "convincer"
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Jed wrote:


> Mike Carrell wrote:
>
> >Yes, the s/n is quite high. Yes, the equipment costs thousands. No, it is
> >not ready for a sidewalk sale. I have pointed out to Mills that I think
it
> >would scare away a development engineer. Why?
>
> It might scare away development engineers, perhaps most, but it would
> attract hundreds of thousands of others, as well as scientists worldwide.
I
> am sure many development engineers would have confidence that they can
> solve the remaining technical problems as quickly as Mills can, or as
> anyone else can. The reward for doing so would be enormous.

Jed, the apparatus and operating conditions are described in detail in
papers posted on the BLP website. Anybody can set it up. As it stands it
represents several kilobucks of equipment. If it were that easy, then there
should be a parade of copies right now. In fact, critics ask why others have
not done so. The reasons are human psychology, no more. Or, there may be
subtleties that amateurs won't notice. If you think it's that easy, why not
try yourself?
>
>
> >If I were a development engineer, I can't see a product that has to be
run
> >at 2.45 GHz with an Evenson cavity.  I need to see a cheaper and more
> >direct way of producing the essential ionization. Mills has experimented
> >with several excitation modes in other papers, and they don't behave the
> >same for reasons that require more study. I have suggested an approach,
> >which Mills indicated as unfeasible. . . .
>
> Mike, you are missing the forest for the trees!

<snip Wright example>

No, there is a difference. As you have pointed out very ably in your
discussion of the Wrights, it took a critical demonstration in front of a
specific audience to light the fuse. You pointed out that the local papers
ignored the Wrights flights because they "didn't go any place". Other
inventors managed short straight forward hops. It was the Wright
demonstration in front of a skeptical government audience of a controlled
takeoff, circling and making a controlled landing. It showed in a stroke to
the right people that controlled flight could be accomplished. There had
been years, decades of effort, dreams, and failure. People ached for the
dream of flight.

Copying the cell Mills has right now, as is, won't fulfill any dreams
because there is an adequate infrastructure of water heaters. In the long
run it is very important.

<snip>
 If it is shown that Mills
> is right, his machine works, and his theory explains it, he will be the
> most celebrated, wealthy and respected scientist in history.

I agree.
>
>
> >This is a laboratory kluge. It is nowhere near a product.
>
> It does not have to be. The 1908 Flyer was not a Douglas DC3. That was the
> first profitable commercial airplane, and the first reasonably safe,
> practical, quiet and comfortable one. It was introduce in December 1935.
> (All previous civilian airplanes lost money.)

Yes, because capability and design had to evolve to a certain point before
the DC3 was possible. That plane is a marvel and there are probably some
still flying today. It's that growth for which Mills needs partners. >
>
> >The founders became legends. Photography was a curiosity until Eastman,
> >who brought together essential known elements into a system that changed
> >the equation with "You push the button, we do the rest".
>
> When photography was announced in 1839, it was an overnight worldwide
> sensation. It swept through Europe and American, and within a few years
> every city and town had photography studios, generating millions of
dollars
> in revenue. The discovers became wealthy. However, patents and copyright
> protection was not strong back then, so they did become moguls. A few
years
> later, the people who invented and implemented the telegraph such as Morse
> and Cornell *did* become multi-millionaires.

Because photography met an unmet need. Before that there were only artists
making portraits and landscapes. In the Boston Museum there is a fantastic
collection of botanical specimens modeled in glass, the work of a father and
son over 40 years, sponsored by the Ware sisters. When they began, there was
no photography and botany students had only dried pressed flowers and
sketches to work from. These specimens are so detailed that good photographs
of them look like natural flowers.

There is no crying unmet need for a water heater kit. Potentially, it
should be possible to boil oceans to get fresh water for a thirsty planet
and irrigation of deserts. There will be a desperate need. It is there now,
as you have pointed out, in the developing countries of Africa and
elsewhere. People lead miserable lives because this technology is not
available to them. But that isn't what Mills has right now.
>
>
> >The telegraph also relied on an existing technical base of
> >electromagnetism, wire, electric batteries, etc. Morse put things
together.
>
> No, it did not. <snip a wonderful account of Morse and the telegraph.>
>
> >Mills is busy building the technical base.
>
> He cannot do it single handed, any more than Morse could string telegraph
> wire, or the Wrights could invent retractable landing gear.

Of course he can't. He knows this full well, which is why he is soliciting
partnerships. I don't think he would mind if anybody duplicated one of his
experiments, so long as credit was given and nobody was trying to rip him
off. he certainly cooperated with Rowan. >
>
> >There were many incandescent lamps before Edison. Edison looked at the
> >system needs and realized he needed a high resistance lamp that would
work
> >off 100 volts or so. He was stymied until he got a real high vacuum pump
> >that could produce a hard vacuum so his filaments would not burn up.
>
> And much else, but most of it was not ready when he convinced the public
in
> December 1879. He was still inventing key parts of the technology two
years
> later, and he never did pay for that vacuum pump, as far as I know.  (For
> his whole life he was reportedly trailed by angry crowd of creditors,
> swindled business partners, and alienated employees. He was not a likeable
> fellow.)

No, he wasn't in many respects. He also ripped off the French
cinematographer who made the film about the trip to the moon.
>
>
> >Jed, choose your examples more wisely. You missed here. Land and Eastman
> >and Edison had the technical and business savvy to put together something
> >new and create new industries.
>
> That was 50 years after photography became a multimillion dollar worldwide
> industry.

I should not take you on in the matter of history of technology. You are
much better versed in the gritty details than I am. We differ in perception
of what needs to be done to move BLP forward. In my previous post I
discussed the problems with a BLP battery, which you have not responded to
here.

Some years ago, Mills attracted industrial investors with the vision of a
BLP boiler retrofitting fossil fuel boilers in utility plants. He eventually
realized that while oil costs are relatively low, and fuel a small part of
the operating cost, that promoting a new, untried system with even zero fuel
cost is not attractive. No utility manager would install such a thing until
it had been shaken down for years in test runs. Mills can't afford such a
thing.

Mike Carrell



>
> - Jed
>
>
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 13 12:31:30 2002
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stevek wrote:

> Dear Gene and Jed:
>
> It saddens me to see such division between two of the most prominent
> supporters of CF.


Hear, hear!

I have found some of Jed's contributions in the past, on this mailing 
list and in other forums, to be extremely cogent, informative, and 
thought provoking.  I'm less familiar with Dr. Mallove, but I have been 
quite impressed with what I have seen.  I would hate to see either of 
them absent themselves from this forum.

However, the ongoing flame wars during the past weeks have been quite 
painful to witness.

Since the Correa discussion started a while back Vortex has seemed 
caught in a rather nasty downward spiral.  I thought this mailing list 
was supposed to provide a supportive, positive environment for 
discussing unlikely or implausible scientific ideas having to do 
primarily with energy generation.  Of late, it's been more reminiscent 
of the sci.physics.fusion news group a couple years back, when every 
mention of CF resulted in really vicious attacks from a few of the regulars.

Could you guys try to turn down the critical intensity a little, at 
least when you're writing to Vortex?  Many of us would appreciate it if 
you would.

Thanks...

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Mike Carrell wrote:

>Jed, the apparatus and operating conditions are described in detail in
>papers posted on the BLP website. Anybody can set it up. As it stands it 
>represents several kilobucks of equipment. If it were that easy, then 
>there should be a parade of copies right now. . . .

There would be, if people realized it is real. It would be the biggest 
parade in history! Therefore, Mills must convince people it is real. 
Success will follow inevitably, although the precise sequence of events 
that will follow are impossible to predict. All hell will break loose!


>If you think it's that easy, why not try yourself?

I do not think it is easy. That is why I say Mills must take steps to 
shepherd the first batch of replications. He did that with the NASA 
investigation. He must do it again a dozen time more. Then he will probably 
need to give more removed, "hands off" assistance to perhaps ~100 
researchers. That is more or less what P&F, Bockris and a few others did in 
1989 and 1990.

I would certainly be willing to contribute money to defray the cost of a 
replication.


>No, there is a difference. As you have pointed out very ably in your
>discussion of the Wrights, it took a critical demonstration in front of a
>specific audience to light the fuse.

My point exactly! Mills must light the fuse. He must find the audience. 
Fortunately, the Internet makes that much easier than it ever has been in 
history. I expect he could find some qualified people right here in this 
forum, and in the BLP forum.


>It was the Wright demonstration in front of a skeptical government 
>audience of a controlled takeoff, circling and making a controlled 
>landing. It showed in a stroke to the right people that controlled flight 
>could be accomplished.

Right. To nitpick a little, in France the witnesses were aviation experts 
and engineers mainly outside the government. In Washington the Army 
sponsored the test. President Roosevelt personally broke the logjam to get 
the test underway. I do not think Pres. Bush would help Mills under any 
circumstances, but it is wide world, and there are thousands of others who 
can and would.


>Copying the cell Mills has right now, as is, won't fulfill any dreams
>because there is an adequate infrastructure of water heaters. In the long
>run it is very important.

Oh come now! Really, Mike, everyone will realize that this has infinitely 
greater significance than mere water heaters. The physicists will know it 
is an unprecedented scientific revolution. Of course they do not believe it 
now, but when enough of them see it with their own eyes, and measure it 
with their own instruments, they will be convinced.

The 1908 Wright demonstration in Paris was a flight of 100 meters, 10 
meters off the ground, with one loop. It lasted less than one minute. But 
no one watching it imagined that the technology was limited to 
such  performance, and that it had no significance. The crowd went wild 
because they understood the larger significance. They were trained experts, 
not like the people in Dayton in 1905 who saw the flights from the trolley 
car and did not know what to make of them. Any smart scientist or engineer 
who sees 20 watts generated from ordinary water in the Mills device -- and 
who is convinced it is real -- will know at once that he or she is looking 
at the most important breakthrough since fire.

The kind of problems you are worried about -- practical issues about which 
excitation mode to use -- are insignificant details. Mills should leave 
that sort of thing to others. There are probably a million trained 
engineers in the world who can work out the answers as well as Mills could, 
and several thousand who can do it far better than he can. After 1908 
hundreds of people like Sikorski built better, safer airplanes than the 
Wrights ever thought up.

Furthermore, it makes no difference what design Mills introduces in the 
first consumer heaters or motors. Whatever he comes up with will be 
obsolete six months later. In the early phases of the development of a 
machine, progress & change is much swifter than any one person can imagine 
or come up with on his own. Look at the dizzying sequence of early 
typewriters, automobiles, airplanes, transistors, mainframe computers, or 
personal computers. Various models and types appear and disappear, most 
lasting only a few months. It is impossible for any person or corporation 
to pick the "right" design or approach, and no implementation will last 
longer than a year.


> > practical, quiet and comfortable one. It was introduced in December 1935.
> > (All previous civilian airplanes lost money.)
>
>Yes, because capability and design had to evolve to a certain point before 
>the DC3 was possible. That plane is a marvel and there are probably some 
>still flying today. It's that growth for which Mills needs partners.

That kind of growth can never be achieved by one group of people, or one 
set of "partners." It can never be planned, or directed, or consciously 
achieved -- not even by the most brilliant people who ever lived. Any one 
group will always, ALWAYS, go off the track at some stages in the 
development of new technology, and ignore a critical improvement, the way 
Bell Labs ignored integrated circuits for some years. (After a while this 
wayward group will recognize it made a mistake, just as Bell Labs did.) The 
progress that led from the 1908 Flyer to the 1935 DC3 can only be achieved 
by whole nations working in competitive capitalistic chaos, without 
leaders, without plans, without direction.


>There is no crying unmet need for a water heater kit.

There is a crying need for energy. Everyone knows that. Every smart person 
on earth will realize that the Mills effect will probably lead to a 
solution, even if it is limited to heating water in the first implementation.

The first airplanes flew short uncontrolled hops, but perceptive people saw 
the significance instantly. When a British reporter published a brief 
description of an early flight and played down the significance of it in 
1906, publishing magnate Lord Northcliff was outraged. He called his editor 
on the telephone and said, the news was not "that Santos-Dumont flies 722 
feet, but that England is no longer an island. . . It means the aerial 
chariots of a foe descending on British soil if war comes." Northcliff's 
vocabulary may have been archaic, but his vision of the future was sharp. 
(He later became the Wrights' good friend and supporter.)

There are millions of people like Northcliff in the world today -- 
potential friends of Mills. If Mills really has what he claims, he must 
enlist their support as quickly as he can, because they are vastly 
outnumbered by potential enemies. For every friend there are a thousand 
reactionary people who despise progress. They would enslave the human race 
to fossil fuels until the last drop of oil runs out. They block the CAFE 
efficiency improvements even if it means the air is filthy, terrorist 
governments get millions of dollars of our money every day and kill 
thousands of us, and we must go to war every ten years in the Middle East. 
They will not upgrade the coal fired generators on the East Coast, even 
though that means 20,000 people die every year, because the upgrade will 
cost a fraction of a penny per kilowatt hour. They are the most wealthy & 
powerful people in history. They would crush Mills in an instant, if they 
believed his claims.


>In my previous post I discussed the problems with a BLP battery, which you 
>have not responded to here.

Whatever the technical problems may be, they will be solved instantly by 
the mass collective genius of a million people, once knowledge of the 
device becomes public.


>Some years ago, Mills attracted industrial investors with the vision of a
>BLP boiler retrofitting fossil fuel boilers in utility plants. He eventually
>realized that while oil costs are relatively low, and fuel a small part of
>the operating cost, that promoting a new, untried system with even zero 
>fuel cost is not attractive. No utility manager would install such a thing 
>until it had been shaken down for years in test runs. Mills can't afford 
>such a thing.

Also, the utility managers will be smart enough to see that this invention 
makes their industry obsolete, and that if it succeeds they will lose their 
jobs and fortunes, and their lives will be ruined. If Mills actually tried 
to sell to them, he understands NOTHING nothing about business or history. 
Frankly, I find it very hard to believe that anyone would be so stupid! 
Yes, I did see that on his web page years ago, and I groaned with agony. 
What could he be thinking?!?

That is like inventing a supercomputer that costs $1 to make, sells for 
$1.10, and asking IBM to sell it. "Here you are gentleman! Sell this, and 
you will cannibalize your own market. You will reduce your profits by a 
factor of three, and reduce total sales of computing equipment worldwide by 
a factor of a million. You will irrevocably wipe out your entire industry, 
and you will be lucky to retire to a trailer park in five years." Gee, who 
could resist that sales pitch?

- Jed


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In a message dated 11/13/02 2:36:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
slawrence pobox.com writes:


> Last, I should mention that he referred frequently to "optical phonons". 
> Apparently the phonons that are carrying the energy are themselves 
> highly energetic --

Optical phonons result from the coupling of a light nucleus and a heay 
nucleus.
The frequency of vibration is generally in the infrared spectrum.
The mode does not propagate.

Frank Z

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 11/13/02 2:36:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, slawrence pobox.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Last, I should mention that he referred frequently to "optical phonons". <BR>
Apparently the phonons that are carrying the energy are themselves <BR>
highly energetic --</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Optical phonons result from the coupling of a light nucleus and a heay nucleus.<BR>
The frequency of vibration is generally in the infrared spectrum.<BR>
The mode does not propagate.<BR>
<BR>
Frank Z</FONT></HTML>

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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>
> SPECIAL RLE SEMINAR
>
> Monday, November 4, 2002
> Grier Room B, 34-401B
>
> Refreshments at 3:45 PM
> Talk at 4:00 PM
>
> Are there New Physical Mechanisms Associated
> with the Anomalies in Metal Deuterides?
>
> Professor Peter L. Hagelstein
> MIT

I was hoping to see some comments on the talk on Vortex from someone 
else.  Since no one has posted anything about it, I will.

I attended the talk with a friend who was a staunch "non-believer", and 
we were both extremely impressed (the friend is no longer a 
non-believer).  Unfortunately the QM left me in the dust, so I can't say 
anything very intelligent about the technical details.  However, there 
were a couple of overall points that even someone with my limited QM 
background could grasp:

  -- Hagelstein's theory seems to explain most of the results which have 
been seen to date in the cold fusion arena.  He didn't go into detail on 
all the various effects that have been seen, but he talked about several 
and claimed to have analyzed more that he didn't go into.

  -- If I understood what he said correctly, he has predicted anomalous 
effects that hadn't been seen yet, and had them verified subsequently by 
later experiments.  This, by itself, seems to go a long way toward 
vindicating his theory.

So, if you have any kind of background in QM, it's worth making the 
effort to find the text of the talk, assuming it's published in IE (or 
elsewhere).  If you have to subscribe to IE just to get the text of this 
single talk, it would probably be worth it.

Since no comments, however sketchy, would be complete without _some_ 
mention of what he said :-) , here's a very brief summary of some high 
points.  This is from memory -- I didn't take notes during the talk 
(whole thing should be in IE anyway, right?).

He started by reviewing the results in the field.  That was pretty 
impressive by itself, but I suspect the same information is also 
available on Dr. Storms' web site.

After the review, he went into a brief discussion of his original theory 
from 1989, which was that there is a phonon exchange between the active 
site and the Pd lattice, which carries off the energy of the fusion 
reaction.  He explained at some length why that didn't pan out (several 
slides of lots of equations...); in summary, the coupling to the lattice 
was too weak.

Next, he considered the notion that there was a three-way coupling 
between _two_ active sites and the lattice.  The first active site would 
contain two D nuclei smooshed into a single lattice cell (apparently 
legal, though an unusual configuration).  The second active site would 
be a Pd atom.  The energy from the D-D fusion would be transfered via 
phonons through the lattice to the Pd nucleus, which would fission 
(well, it sounds like fission to me, anyway) by spitting out an alpha 
particle, leaving an Ru nucleus behind (is that Rubidium?  Ruthenium? 
Uh... chemistry too many years in the past, and I haven't looked it up).

This was more promising, but apparently the phononic coupling is still 
too weak to make it fly.

Finally, he said he considered the case where _many_ active sites were 
coupled at once.  At this point I started getting pretty lost, but I'll 
slog on in the hope that someone will at least find my blurry notes of 
some interest.

Here we have a side excursion.  He asked what, given this theory, the 
dominant reaction should be.  It turns out it's _not_ D+D+Pd -> 
He+Ru+Alpha.  Rather, it's D+D+He -> He+D+D.  In other words, two D 
nuclei at one site fuse, and an He at another site in the lattice 
fissions into two D nuclei which are left in very close proximity to 
each other.  At this point he spent a while discussing the angular 
momentum of the system, and about the most I can say is that angular 
momentum considerations provide the solution to how the two D nuclei can 
remain stably in close proximity to each other after the He fissions, 
and they also result in what's nearly a requirement for phonon 
interactions -- it's the phonons that carry the angular momentum around 
and make the whole thing balance.

So, it turns out that what's actually going on in a CF cell is lots of 
"null reactions", where two D's get together and an He splits, with a 
very occasional reaction involving two D's and a Pd, which is where the 
occasional high energy alpha particle (and the heat?) comes from.

And (I think) many of these active sites with D-D pairs and He nuclei 
are coupled at once.  And when he worked out the coupling with _that_ 
assumption, it was adequate to make the whole thing go.

By the way, when questioned about the source of the helium, I believe he 
asserted that there's normally enough helium left in the Pd from the 
manufacturing process to get the reactions started.  There's no need to 
assume that some gets added from side reactions or from captured alpha 
particles.

He then asked if we could possibly detect this "null reaction", and went 
on to say that we could.  If this is really going on, then there should 
be many D-D pairs in very close proximity, and that should have 
consequences.  In particular, if one bombards the system with energetic 
particles, one should occasionally see two D nuclei participating in the 
same collision -- and for anything more coherent on this particular 
topic you'll need to get the transcript.  Suffice it to say that he 
predicted an effect here which was subsequently observed, thus providing 
evidence that his "null reaction" is really taking place during CF.

Last, I should mention that he referred frequently to "optical phonons". 
Apparently the phonons that are carrying the energy are themselves 
highly energetic -- if I understand the term, it means that they're 
carrying about as much energy as visible-light photons (can that be 
right?).  In response to a question from the floor, he asserted that 
when D falls down the energy gradient into a Pd lattice in a CF cell, it 
generates optical phonons -- his actual statement was something like 
"That's about the best way to generate optical phonons I can think of".

And that's about as much as I can put together.  Apologies for taking up 
time and space, if it doesn't turn out to be of interest.


--part1_a3.323a0127.2b042579_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 13 14:14:49 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Magnetrons
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:12:36 +1100
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

If free electrons couple to an EM field in a magnetron, then they should also
be able to couple at lower frequencies, e.g. several kHz, provided that 
the field forms part of a resonant system. This would appear to be Paul Brown's method of extracting energy from a nuclear battery. Comments?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 13 14:48:22 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Famous examples of geniuses who went astray
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Here are a few well known examples of inventive geniuses who founded 
industries and then missed the boat, failed to make the right choices, and 
were left behind. If these people had done what Mills and other OU 
inventors do, and formed a collaborative group of "partners" to guide the 
development of technology, the technology would either have failed or it 
would have limped along for decades, making no impact on society. Progress 
in science and technology requires the collective unconscious genius of 
many people, in chaotic, unregulated competition.

James Watt insisted that high pressure steam engines were dangerous and had 
no advantage. He had such influence over the industry that it was not until 
he died that serious R&D on high pressure engines began. Without high 
pressure, the steam locomotive and steam driven ships would be impossible. 
Imagine how the world would be if people lived forever, and steam engines 
were developed like Tokamak reactors are today, under the auspices of the 
government, in an organized project without capitalist competition. Wise 
men would put the best qualified person in history in charge -- James Watt 
-- and he would have prevented all meaningful progress.

Edison make many bad calls. He insisted that record players should be 
powered by batteries or by running water. That did not work, and the 
machines did not sell. Finally his competitors forced him and the industry 
to use spring-loaded, wind-up players. He assumed players would have to be 
able to record, as well as play. The battery powered models cost much more 
than the other types, and the speed kept changing. Water-powered recording 
machines were attached to kitchen sinks with a hose. They made a racket and 
sprayed water everywhere. Edison was so thrilled with these notions he did 
not realize how impractical they were.

Edison's most famous mistake was to stick with DC instead of AC. He was so 
upset with the technical choices made by the managers at the Edison 
Electric Company, he sold out early, or was forced out, depending on the 
account. The company went on to become General Electric and was soon one of 
the biggest companies in the world. Edison used most of the money from the 
sale to develop magnetic separation of iron ore, which was more expensive 
than ordinary ore processing. He spent years of effort, and millions of 
dollars, and lost it all.

Bell Labs invented the transistor, and then ignored the integrated circuit. 
The decision makers there had good reasons for thinking the IC was a dead 
end. It was not cost effective, it did not work as well as discrete 
components, and it had few apparent advantages at first.

Shockley made great contributions to the transistors. He left AT&T, formed 
his own company, and trained a cadre of people who still run the 
semiconductor industry. But he himself made many business mistakes, and 
went down many blind alleys. He never made money. People called him the 
Moses of semiconductors: he saw the promised land, but he never entered it.

Steve Jobs made contribution to computer design and marketing, but he 
mismanaged Apple and lost market share, and the Next computer went nowhere.

There are many other examples. It is common knowledge that stupid, short 
sighted people make dumb mistakes in business, or they develop the wrong 
product for wrong market. What is less often noted is that great geniuses 
with proven track records also make terrible mistakes, and lose fortunes. 
They work for years on products and ideas even when it is obvious to 
objective observers that these ideas have no commercial prospect of 
success. The pick catastrophic business strategies, such as Mills' plan to 
sell his water-heating technology to power companies. Any freshman business 
school student would see the danger of this! No individual, no matter how 
brilliant, can be equally brilliant in all fields of endeavor, or in every 
situation he encounters. No one's judgement is good in all situations. 
Putting a genius like Watt in charge of development would be the death of 
steam engines. Let Edison decide how record players will work, and you will 
never see them in the marketplace.

*No one* is qualified to guide the development of any important, basic 
technology, such as the Mills effect. It would take God-like omniscience. 
Never in history has any individual succeeded in guiding a basic technology 
beyond the level of a crude prototype. Edison was good for the first few 
hundred record players, and electric lights in the first few office 
buildings in New York. After that, the collective genius of capitalism took 
over. When Edison succeeded at all, he should have thanked his competitors 
for pushing him in the right direction, and keeping him from implementing 
idiotic schemes such as water powered record players. (Of course, just as 
often he *did* have the right idea, and he pushed his competition the right 
direction.) Businessmen do not like competition, but without it they would 
not survive. One person's isolated ideas are never sufficient, never 
correct enough, never farsighted enough. You must have *collective 
intelligence*.

(These are not my ideas or examples by the way! This is common knowledge in 
business and this history of science. Most of these examples from from D. 
Cardwell, "The Norton History of Technology," and M. Riordan, "Crystal Fire.")

- Jed


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In a message dated 11/13/02 2:36:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
slawrence pobox.com writes:


> Last, I should mention that he referred frequently to "optical phonons". 
> Apparently the phonons that are carrying the energy are themselves 
> highly energetic -- if I understand the term, it means that they're 
> carrying about as much energy as visible-light photons (can that be 
> right?).  In response to a question from the floor, he asserted that 
> when D falls down the energy gradient into a Pd lattice in a CF cell, it 
> generates optical phonons -- his actual statement was something like 
> "That's about the best way to generate optical phonons I can think of".
> 
> 

I'm not sure of the about the amount of energy they carry. 

Energy = h/P

Phonons  move slowly and have a lot of momentum compared to light.   Optical 
refers
to the frequency of vibration.  It is usually below the visible band in the 
infrared
spectrum.  Here we Hegelstein and I agree.  I say "the Constants of the 
Motion tend toward thouse
of the electromagnetic in a Bose condensate that is stimulated at a 
dimensional frequency
of one megahertz-meter.  The frequency of stimulation is ~10exp14 hertz.  
This frequency is of
an optical phonon vibration.  Less massive H, D, and L1 tend to vibrate at 
these lattice frequencies.
I don't believe that Hagelstein has taken the next step and put this 
frequency together with the 50nm
size to give the megahertz-meter realtionship.

Frank Znidarsic

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 11/13/02 2:36:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, slawrence pobox.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Last, I should mention that he referred frequently to "optical phonons". <BR>
Apparently the phonons that are carrying the energy are themselves <BR>
highly energetic -- if I understand the term, it means that they're <BR>
carrying about as much energy as visible-light photons (can that be <BR>
right?).&nbsp; In response to a question from the floor, he asserted that <BR>
when D falls down the energy gradient into a Pd lattice in a CF cell, it <BR>
generates optical phonons -- his actual statement was something like <BR>
"That's about the best way to generate optical phonons I can think of".<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I'm not sure of the about the amount of energy they carry. <BR>
<BR>
Energy = h/P<BR>
<BR>
Phonons&nbsp; move slowly and have a lot of momentum compared to light.&nbsp;&nbsp; Optical refers<BR>
to the frequency of vibration.&nbsp; It is usually below the visible band in the infrared<BR>
spectrum.&nbsp; Here we Hegelstein and I agree.&nbsp; I say "the Constants of the Motion tend toward thouse<BR>
of the electromagnetic in a Bose condensate that is stimulated at a dimensional frequency<BR>
of one megahertz-meter.&nbsp; The frequency of stimulation is ~10exp14 hertz.&nbsp; This frequency is of<BR>
an optical phonon vibration.&nbsp; Less massive H, D, and L1 tend to vibrate at these lattice frequencies.<BR>
I don't believe that Hagelstein has taken the next step and put this frequency together with the 50nm<BR>
size to give the megahertz-meter realtionship.<BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic</FONT></HTML>

--part1_115.1a89985f.2b04522b_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 14 09:36:58 2002
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: ] EZE WEENIE MICRO POWER MOTOR  0.0509 Watts
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	Dear Folks,



	On another note the motors that operate commercial devices
use very little power in some cases.

	Does anyone have any examples of very low power motors?




On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Ben Thomas wrote:

> Hi Gang
> 
> I invite you to check out the latest on the EZE WEENIE Micro Power 
> ADAMS type motor.  If I hadn't made all the measurements myself, I 
> wouldn't believe it! Notice all measurements are to at least 3 
> places and in some cases 5 places when calculated.
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/k4zep/
> 
> It measures .0509 watts, DC input 50.9 mw.  6.82 X 10-5 HP!  Enjoy 
> and read the theory, it is VERY important.  There is more energy 
> there than from the battery, I just don't see how that kind of power 
> can turn that wheel otherwise!  
> 
> To show how sensitive it is, increasing the voltage from 1.54 to 
> 1.84 VDC will increase the RPM to 84 with only about 10% increase in 
> power input.  This appears to be the absolute bottom value for this 
> setup that the motor will run not the best combo, but the least.  
> The funny thing too is the bearings in the old bicycle wheel are 
> noisy as an ol granny.  They just grind away!
> 
> Respectfully
> 
> Ben
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 14 11:42:43 2002
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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:27:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Famous examples of geniuses who went astray
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Lets face it one simply cannot predict the future.
Here is an example of the equally true and revolutionarry thing resulting
from 'bad business stratagy'

I do see the corrilation with Mills.  He has a thing that is (or will be)
privatly marketable.  he should licence power compianys to use this and
use the time and money to develop a small automated version for the home
and/or transportation.

IBM under pressure to keep the business markets that they where rapidly
loosing to Steve Jobbs (and others including Radio Shack)  licenced the
arcitecture of the XT personal computer to just about anybody who was
willing to play the game and say "IBM Compatable"  In the short term they
made a bunch of money.  In the long term it hurt.  e.g  It still hurts. 

But now we have "Clone PCs" steming form that decision.  IF anybody asks
me "What brand of computer do you recomend"  I will say "get a computer
with no brand name.  A "Clone PC".  That way when you are ready to change
it you can do so without liquidating your IRA.  

 
  
--- Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:
> Here are a few well known examples of inventive geniuses who founded 
> industries and then missed the boat, failed to make the right choices,
> and 
> were left behind. If these people had done what Mills and other OU 
> inventors do, and formed a collaborative group of "partners" to guide
> the 
> development of technology, the technology would either have failed or


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:35:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ] EZE WEENIE MICRO POWER MOTOR  0.0509 Watts
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Sparrow fan or just about any cooling fan used in a PC

--- John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu> wrote:
> 
> 
> 	Dear Folks,
> 
> 
> 
> 	On another note the motors that operate commercial devices
> use very little power in some cases.
> 
> 	Does anyone have any examples of very low power motors?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Ben Thomas wrote:
> 
> > Hi Gang
> > 
> > I invite you to check out the latest on the EZE WEENIE Micro Power 
> > ADAMS type motor.  If I hadn't made all the measurements myself, I 
> > wouldn't believe it! Notice all measurements are to at least 3 
> > places and in some cases 5 places when calculated.
> > 
> > http://www.geocities.com/k4zep/
> > 
> > It measures .0509 watts, DC input 50.9 mw.  6.82 X 10-5 HP!  Enjoy 
> > and read the theory, it is VERY important.  There is more energy 
> > there than from the battery, I just don't see how that kind of power 
> > can turn that wheel otherwise!  
> > 
> > To show how sensitive it is, increasing the voltage from 1.54 to 
> > 1.84 VDC will increase the RPM to 84 with only about 10% increase in 
> > power input.  This appears to be the absolute bottom value for this 
> > setup that the motor will run not the best combo, but the least.  
> > The funny thing too is the bearings in the old bicycle wheel are 
> > noisy as an ol granny.  They just grind away!
> > 
> > Respectfully
> > 
> > Ben
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 14 12:45:38 2002
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Subject: Re: Famous examples of geniuses who went astray
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Charles Ford wrote:

>Lets face it one simply cannot predict the future.

But as A. C. Clarke wrote in the introduction to "Profiles of the Future:"

"It is impossible to predict the future, and all attempts to do so in any 
detail appear ludicrous within a very few years. This book has a more 
realistic yet at the same time more ambitious aim. It does not try to 
describe *the* future, but to define the boundaries within which possible 
futures must lie. If we regard the ages which stretch ahead of us as an 
unmapped and unexplored country, what I am attempting to do is to survey 
its frontiers and to get some idea of its extent. . . ."


>IBM under pressure to keep the business markets that they where rapidly 
>loosing to Steve Jobbs (and others including Radio Shack)  licenced the 
>arcitecture of the XT personal computer to just about anybody who was 
>willing to play the game and say "IBM Compatable"  In the short term they 
>made a bunch of money.  In the long term it hurt.  e.g  It still hurts.

That is a fascinating story! It is described in several recommended books, 
especially "Accidental Empires." It was both a brilliant decision and a bad 
one. At first it was a fantastic and unexpected success. Then, gradually as 
computers became commodities, it turned around and almost destroyed IBM. 
But I think that would have happened even if IBM had not set the standard 
with the PC. Some other standard would have emerged, perhaps a few years later.


>I do see the corrallation with Mills.  He has a thing that is (or will be)
>privately marketable.  he should licence power compianys to use this and 
>use the time and money to develop a small automated version for the home 
>and/or transportation.

There is where I disagree. That was his strategy for a while, and I thought 
it was a terrible idea. It is obvious to me, and probably to the power 
companies, that if he succeeds he will destroy them. The only advantages to 
centralized power production are fuel efficiency and reduced pollution (in 
modern plants, that is). Mills would erase both advantages, making it 
cheaper to generate power on site.

Therefore, as I see it, when Mills goes around trying to sell to a power 
company, it is as if in 1920 Henry Ford were to go to the railroads to 
raise capital. By 1920 it was clear that automobiles were eating the 
railroads' lunch. Passenger traffic, the most profitable business, was 
falling drastically. Imagine how a railroad company president would react 
if Ford said to him, "You should buy 10% of my company, so that I will have 
the capital to take away 90% of your business." There may have been 
individual railroad tycoons who sold their stock and bought automobile 
stock. Some railroad executives might have quit and gone into the auto 
business. But as a rule, when corporations are challenged by disruptive 
technology, they do not buy into the new technology. They do not try to 
build it themselves. First they pretend the challenge does not exist, then 
they put up futile resistance, draining their resources, trying to avoid 
the inevitable. Then they go bankrupt. Christensen gives many examples in 
"The Innovator's Dilemma."

(In actual historical fact, Ford did not need capital, and the company did 
not go public until 1956.)

Based on Christensen and other observers, I predict the power companies and 
oil companies will never try to buy into or co-op Mills or CF. They will 
fight it. Whether they win or lose will depend on Mills' business savvy. So 
far, based on the textbooks, he has done everything wrong, and made every 
mistake that people usually make when challenging powerful, entrenched 
competition. He has played into their hands. When I rail against him and 
say his business plan stinks, I am not merely raving or jealous, or 
emotional -- as Mallove and others seem to think. I have good reasons for 
that opinion, based on authoritative textbooks from the Harvard Business 
School, Cornell and elsewhere. The experts on business & history at Harvard 
may be wrong, and Mills may be right, but I would not bet on it. Of course 
Mills has experts too on his board of directors. Maybe they read different 
textbooks than I did. Or perhaps they are making a colossal mistake because 
they have not read history, and not thought carefully about how they might 
succeed, and what the real risks & prospects are. They are doing things the 
conventional way, in a highly unconventional situation.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 14 14:58:06 2002
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Subject: Re: Subj: [DrRichBoylanReports] Russian Scientist Pegs Earth Changes to "exte...
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In a message dated 11/14/02 5:21:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
cjford1 yahoo.com writes:


> 
> Gee and I thouht is was the life cycle of east pacific coral...
> 
> Which is why we measure coral bleaching to predict climate changes. e.g.
> El nino.
> 
> And it works...
> 
> 

I saw this being done at the Biosphere II near Pheonix Az

Frank Z

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 11/14/02 5:21:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, cjford1 yahoo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
Gee and I thouht is was the life cycle of east pacific coral...<BR>
<BR>
Which is why we measure coral bleaching to predict climate changes. e.g.<BR>
El nino.<BR>
<BR>
And it works...<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I saw this being done at the Biosphere II near Pheonix Az<BR>
<BR>
Frank Z</FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 14 18:12:44 2002
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From: "Nicholas Reiter" <nreiter woh.rr.com>
To: "vortex-L" <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Subject: Unusual interaction of a laser beam with a plasma
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:11:31 -0500
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Gentlemen,

On many occasions, I have posted my own observations here of things that I
find surprising.  I do so because of the diverse base of skills and
background on this list.  They usually end up being explainable, either by
my own diligence in coughing up artifacts, or by help from Vort...case in
point the unusual force I thought I was seeing between a magnet and the
optical axis of a quartz crystal.  Ended up, as I mentioned here, as being
an electrostatic attraction to my hand.

Now here is the latest.  I have not yet witnessed the anomaly first hand,
however this afternoon it was described to me faithfully, and I am told that
it has been repeated on demand.  I have also had the honor of examining the
system producing the anomaly during operation.  Hopefully, I will be able to
get some time on this apparatus over the next two weeks, run some tests of
my own and see if this is BS or not, for my own sake.

A small company in Toledo, Ohio has been trying to find marketable
applications for a unique plasma torch that was developed about 15 years
ago, I believe.  It has not found any wide use yet, because frankly it is
not an extremely portable or necessarily efficient sort of device.  But it
is unique as hell, and the plasma produced has some mighty odd properties.

The device pumps an RF current at a standard 13.56MHz through a jet of inert
gas such as helium.  This jet is fed into the open air from a concentric
oriface nozzle.  Which up to that point makes it seem a lot like a
traditional plasma cutter.  However, the whole system, including the ionized
jet of helium, is tuned with a simple matching network (like RF sputtering
or PECVD) and a standing wave is set up.  The plasma sheath acts like an
extension of the coaxial conductor.  The output - typically run in the 100s
of watts range for power is a purplish torch - like beam, up to several
inches long.  It is NOT a neutral plasma.  Tom Shepparak, the developer,
explained that the jet core is mainly ions and neutral atoms, and the outer
sheath or surrounding region becomes filled with free electrons and forms a
negative cloud.  A grounded metal workpiece will attract the jet / flame and
then form something like an arc.  This afternoon, I watched the plasma jet
light up a tungsten rod with about 100 watts of power behind it.  But a
sheet of paper passed through the jet is hardly browned.

Anyway, all of this is fun and unique enough as it is.  But the REALLY
strange claim is that when a laser beam is aimed at the plasma jet, the jet
deflects!  Shepparak claims that even a 5mW HeNe causes the jet to deflect
noticeably.  He videotaped it, and has shown it to faculty at UT.  Who
presumably have been scratching their heads too.

OK, laser beams can push around atoms at low temperatures, and can cool, and
pump, etc.  This I know.  But does anyone out there amongst the august minds
of this group know of any dynamics that occur between a plasma  - or an
aggregate of charged particles at modest to high energies - and a laser
beam?!?!?  If this is so, and is not an illusion of some sort, then I think
these fellows may have stumbled onto a bizarre little loophole in
electrodynamics.

Beam me up,

NR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 14 19:03:57 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Unusual interaction of a laser beam with a plasma
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 14:01:33 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Nicholas Reiter's message of Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:11:31 -0500:
Hi Nick,
[snip]
>pump, etc.  This I know.  But does anyone out there amongst the august minds
>of this group know of any dynamics that occur between a plasma  - or an
>aggregate of charged particles at modest to high energies - and a laser
>beam?!?!?  If this is so, and is not an illusion of some sort, then I think
[snip]
Try looking up free-electron lasers, and bench-top particle accelerators
based on lasers passed through a plasma.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:27:54 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: CF, the hydrino and Arie de Geus
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Greetings,

Mention has been made of the alternative WPO patent for creating =
hydrinos by Arie de Geus and his contention that, unlike Mills & Co. he =
is using the properties of certain isotopes which carry extra neutrons, =
[as defined in his book and in the patent] in order to function as =
"nucleonic catalysts". This is a new concept - as catalysts typically =
only function through electrons in the outer shell of atoms.

IF he is correct...

AND IF "shrinkage below ground state" is also an instrumental, or even =
essential, first step in the broader field of cold fusion and other =
forms of low energy nuclear reactions, where shrinkage of deuterium to a =
deuterino is the first step towards creating a higher probability i.e. =
"cross-section"  for either fusion or deuterium tunneling...=20

THEN, the likely "active" material for cold fusion reactions can be =
pinpointed specifically as 110 Palladium, a stable isotope that is 11.7 =
% of natural and is unique in many respects, not the least of which is =
its large mass increase over the next lower stable element in the =
periodic table, which is 102Rhodium.=20

This jump of nearly 7% in nuclear mass is much less than the =
corresponding percentage jumps found in de Geus' preferred catalysts, =
Li, Be, and B but palladium is also unique in its ability to absorb and =
contain hydrogen in its matrix under what is essentially extreme =
pressure. A critical point to remember here is that other researchers =
(R. Mills) have shown that only atomic hydrogen (not molecular hydrogen =
nor ionic hydrogen) will shrink when catalyzed, therefore obvious =
candidates like LiD or deuterated boranes would not work, because the =
deuterium is already molecular, and this is why a metal matrix is =
important to keep the D in an atomic (or at least occasionally atomic) =
state.

This 7% jump in nuclear mass of 110 Pd is extreme among heavier =
hydrogen-absorbing elements... But one of the few similarly large =
increases (actually larger) is found in 50Titanium (over 45Scandium) and =
there have actually been a few reports of cold fusion using titanium in =
the early years after the P&F announcement!   Is this merely =
coincidental?

50 Ti is unfortunately only 5% of natural titanium. If it were a higher =
percentage, or if experimenters had ready access to an enriched form of =
this isotope, 50Ti, then CF research would likely be focusing on =
titanium rather then palladium...

IF, that is, Arie de Geus is correct...

Regards,

Jones Beene

BTW, another prospect that I have never seen mentioned as a candidate =
matrix for LENR is Cadmium, specifically 116 Cd.

Unlike Ti and Pd, this isotope might possibly, just possibly, be =
available now in enough quantity to use in a CF cell - but only to a =
researcher who had access to one of the national labs (Ed Storms ?)  =
Isotopes of Cadmium are such excellent neutron absorbers, that I suspect =
that someone, somewhere must have gone to the effort to fractionalize =
cadmium into its various isotopes for that purpose.
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C28C9A.0A8473E0
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	charset="Windows-1252"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; =
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</STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4916.2300" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Greetings,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Mention has been made of the alternative WPO patent for creating =
hydrinos=20
by Arie de Geus and his contention that, unlike Mills &amp; Co.&nbsp;he =
is using=20
the properties of certain isotopes&nbsp;which carry extra neutrons, [as =
defined=20
in his book and in the patent] in order to function as "nucleonic =
catalysts".=20
This is a new concept - as catalysts typically only function through =
electrons=20
in the outer shell of atoms.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>IF&nbsp;he is correct...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>AND&nbsp;IF "shrinkage below ground state" is also an instrumental, =
or even=20
essential, first step in the broader field of cold fusion and other =
forms of low=20
energy nuclear reactions, where shrinkage of deuterium to a deuterino is =
the=20
first step towards creating a higher probability i.e. "cross-section" =
&nbsp;for=20
either fusion or deuterium tunneling... </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>THEN, the likely "active" material for cold fusion reactions can be =

pinpointed specifically as 110 Palladium, a stable isotope that is 11.7 =
% of=20
natural and is unique in many respects, not the least of which is its =
large mass=20
increase over the next lower stable element in the periodic table, which =
is=20
102Rhodium. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This jump of nearly 7% in nuclear mass is much less than the =
corresponding=20
percentage jumps found in de Geus' preferred catalysts, Li, Be, and B =
but=20
palladium is also unique in its ability to absorb and contain hydrogen =
in its=20
matrix under what is essentially extreme pressure. A critical point to =
remember=20
here is that other researchers (R. Mills)&nbsp;have shown that only =
atomic=20
hydrogen (not molecular hydrogen nor ionic hydrogen) will shrink when =
catalyzed,=20
therefore obvious candidates like LiD or deuterated boranes would not =
work,=20
because the deuterium is already molecular, and this is why a metal =
matrix is=20
important to keep the D in an atomic (or at least occasionally atomic)=20
state.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This 7% jump in nuclear mass of 110 Pd is extreme among heavier=20
hydrogen-absorbing elements... But&nbsp;one of the few&nbsp;similarly =
large=20
increases (actually larger) is found in 50Titanium (over 45Scandium) and =
there=20
have actually been a few reports of cold fusion using titanium in the =
early=20
years after the P&amp;F announcement!&nbsp;&nbsp; Is this merely=20
coincidental?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>50&nbsp;Ti is unfortunately only 5% of natural titanium. If it were =
a=20
higher percentage, or if experimenters had ready access to an enriched =
form of=20
this isotope, 50Ti, then CF research would likely be focusing on =
titanium rather=20
then palladium...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>IF, that is, Arie&nbsp;de Geus is correct...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones Beene</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>BTW, another prospect that I have never seen mentioned as a =
candidate=20
matrix for LENR is Cadmium, specifically 116 Cd.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Unlike Ti and Pd, this isotope might possibly, just possibly, be =
available=20
now in enough quantity to use in a CF cell - but only to a researcher =
who had=20
access to one of the national labs (Ed Storms ?)&nbsp;&nbsp;Isotopes of=20
Cadmium&nbsp;are such excellent neutron absorbers, that I suspect that =
someone,=20
somewhere must have gone to the effort to fractionalize cadmium into its =
various=20
isotopes for that purpose.</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C28C9A.0A8473E0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 15 13:10:11 2002
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: WHAT'S NEW,  Friday, 14 Nov 02
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:29:39 -0500
From: "What's New" <opa aps.org>
Reply-To: opa aps.org
To: "What's New" <whatsnew lists.apsmsgs.org>

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 14 Nov 02   Washington, DC

1. BOGDANOV BROTHERS: IT'S NOT A "SOKAL HOAX," BUT IT SHOULD BE. 
If you are older than six, you must remember the Sokal hoax (WN
24 May 96).  NYU physicist Alan Sokal had published an article in
Social Text, a prestigious postmodern journal. "Transgressing the
Boundaries: Toward a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum
Gravity" was pure spoof, but the editors couldn't tell it from
the usual pompous nonsense they publish.  While physicists had a
good laugh, social scientists were presumably plotting revenge. 
So when the rumor spread that the Bogdanov cosmology theory is
really an elaborate hoax, it seemed to explain everything.  Their
theory, after all, looks at the universe before the big bang.  As
logical-positivist physics, that is literally non sense, but as a
Sokal-hoax-in-reverse commentary on the excesses of theoretical
physics completely divorced from experiment, such as parallel
universes, it would be truly brilliant.  Sokal revealed his prank
immediately.  Alas, the Bogdanovs, as Dennis Overbye described
them in last Saturday's NY Times, take themselves seriously.

2. NSF: THE DOUBLING BILL IS ON ITS WAY TO THE PRESIDENT.  Last
night, both the House and the Senate passed a bill authorizing a
doubling of funding for the National Science Foundation over a
five year period.  However, funding for the final two years was
made contingent on whether the Foundation has made progress
toward meeting certain management goals.  These contingencies
were apparently added to satisfy the White House Office of
Management and Budget.  It is now up to the President.  

3. RADIATION-PROOF FABRIC: WILL IT PROTECT YOU FROM CELL-PHONES?  
A company in Florida claims to have developed a new lightweight
fabric called Demron that will protect you from nuclear radiation
as well as a lead vest.  The secret is said to be a polymer that
mimics heavy metals.  We can hardly wait to see how that works.
Originally developed to protect medical staff from X rays, the
company says Demron also blocks gamma rays but didn't say if it
will protect you from cell-phone radiation (WN 13 Sep 02). Maybe
Demron will inspire a new line of designer clothing by Christie
Brinkley, who lives in the Hamptons and worries about radiation
from Brookhaven all the time (WN 19 Nov 99).  

4. GALILEO: AGING SPACECRAFT IS NOW IN ITS DEATH SPIRAL.  Having
long since completed its primary mission, and then a second
mission of discovery to Europa, where it found a frozen ocean,
Galileo last week visited the small moon Amalthea.  Now in its
35th and final orbit of Jupiter, suffering arthritis in its
movable arm, and failing senses from years of intense radiation,
Galileo is running low on propellant.  While it can still be
controlled, it has been ordered to plunge into Jupiter next
September to be sure it doesn't contaminate Europa.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY.  
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or 
the American Physical Society, but they should be.
---
Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN.
You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: <aki ix.netcom.com>
To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail to:
<leave-whatsnew-27231J lists.apsmsgs.org>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 15 14:17:41 2002
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Subject: Cravens ICCF-4 paper uploaded
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Here is a fun paper:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/CravensDfactorsaff.pdf

- Jed 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 15 14:58:12 2002
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Unusual interaction of a laser beam with a plasma
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At 9:11 PM 11/14/2, Nicholas Reiter wrote:
> ... the REALLY
>strange claim is that when a laser beam is aimed at the plasma jet, the jet
>deflects!  Shepparak claims that even a 5mW HeNe causes the jet to deflect
>noticeably.  He videotaped it, and has shown it to faculty at UT.  Who
>presumably have been scratching their heads too.


If true then of course this is an amazing fact.

It is imperative and should be easy to measure the force on the laser.  If
there is no measurable force on the laser then the device can be used as a
space drive by imparting momentum to a torch flame without corresponding
counter-force, thus violating Newton's laws.  It is also clearly important
to include a mirror in the path of the light beam and measure any force on
the mirror as a function of beam deflection.  It should be easier to
measure the force on a mirror than on a laser, so that would be the easiest
significant experiment to pull off.

If there IS an equal but opposite force on the laser, then a flying device
could use a laser to project a long distance beamed force (e.g. upon a
large torch) and thus a scaled up version of the device could be used as an
earth to space lifter.

Important question: which way does the jet deflect?   Away from or towards
the laser beam, or sideways to it?

If the deflection is in whole or in part sideways then many novel devices
are possible, including free energy generators.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 15 15:07:58 2002
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Unusual interaction of a laser beam with a plasma
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Horace,

I hope that within the next two weeks I can examine this for myself.  From
what I am told...anecdote only... the force appears to be pushing or
repelling the plasma, when the laser is directed at right angles to the
plasma jet.  But again, I have to see this one to believe it...or at least
see the video.

NR


> If there IS an equal but opposite force on the laser, then a flying device
> could use a laser to project a long distance beamed force (e.g. upon a
> large torch) and thus a scaled up version of the device could be used as
an
> earth to space lifter.
>
> Important question: which way does the jet deflect?   Away from or towards
> the laser beam, or sideways to it?
>
> If the deflection is in whole or in part sideways then many novel devices
> are possible, including free energy generators.
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 15 15:27:46 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Unusual interaction of a laser beam with a plasma
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 10:25:36 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Nicholas Reiter's message of Fri, 15 Nov 2002 18:04:52 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]

>Horace,
>
>I hope that within the next two weeks I can examine this for myself.  From
>what I am told...anecdote only... the force appears to be pushing or
>repelling the plasma, when the laser is directed at right angles to the
>plasma jet.  But again, I have to see this one to believe it...or at least
>see the video.
>
>NR
Also check out the Compton effect, which though normally only applied to
high energy photons, is actually valid for all photons.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Nicholas Reiter <nreiter woh.rr.com>
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	Dear Nicholas,

	Can we get any more information, such as the URL or information
source this experimental work came from?

		Please.

				Thank you,

						JH

On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Nicholas Reiter wrote:

> Gentlemen,
> 
> On many occasions, I have posted my own observations here of things that I
> find surprising.  I do so because of the diverse base of skills and
> background on this list.  They usually end up being explainable, either by
> my own diligence in coughing up artifacts, or by help from Vort...case in
> point the unusual force I thought I was seeing between a magnet and the
> optical axis of a quartz crystal.  Ended up, as I mentioned here, as being
> an electrostatic attraction to my hand.
> 
> Now here is the latest.  I have not yet witnessed the anomaly first hand,
> however this afternoon it was described to me faithfully, and I am told that
> it has been repeated on demand.  I have also had the honor of examining the
> system producing the anomaly during operation.  Hopefully, I will be able to
> get some time on this apparatus over the next two weeks, run some tests of
> my own and see if this is BS or not, for my own sake.
> 
> A small company in Toledo, Ohio has been trying to find marketable
> applications for a unique plasma torch that was developed about 15 years
> ago, I believe.  It has not found any wide use yet, because frankly it is
> not an extremely portable or necessarily efficient sort of device.  But it
> is unique as hell, and the plasma produced has some mighty odd properties.
> 
> The device pumps an RF current at a standard 13.56MHz through a jet of inert
> gas such as helium.  This jet is fed into the open air from a concentric
> oriface nozzle.  Which up to that point makes it seem a lot like a
> traditional plasma cutter.  However, the whole system, including the ionized
> jet of helium, is tuned with a simple matching network (like RF sputtering
> or PECVD) and a standing wave is set up.  The plasma sheath acts like an
> extension of the coaxial conductor.  The output - typically run in the 100s
> of watts range for power is a purplish torch - like beam, up to several
> inches long.  It is NOT a neutral plasma.  Tom Shepparak, the developer,
> explained that the jet core is mainly ions and neutral atoms, and the outer
> sheath or surrounding region becomes filled with free electrons and forms a
> negative cloud.  A grounded metal workpiece will attract the jet / flame and
> then form something like an arc.  This afternoon, I watched the plasma jet
> light up a tungsten rod with about 100 watts of power behind it.  But a
> sheet of paper passed through the jet is hardly browned.
> 
> Anyway, all of this is fun and unique enough as it is.  But the REALLY
> strange claim is that when a laser beam is aimed at the plasma jet, the jet
> deflects!  Shepparak claims that even a 5mW HeNe causes the jet to deflect
> noticeably.  He videotaped it, and has shown it to faculty at UT.  Who
> presumably have been scratching their heads too.
> 
> OK, laser beams can push around atoms at low temperatures, and can cool, and
> pump, etc.  This I know.  But does anyone out there amongst the august minds
> of this group know of any dynamics that occur between a plasma  - or an
> aggregate of charged particles at modest to high energies - and a laser
> beam?!?!?  If this is so, and is not an illusion of some sort, then I think
> these fellows may have stumbled onto a bizarre little loophole in
> electrodynamics.
> 
> Beam me up,
> 
> NR
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 15 15:39:20 2002
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John,

To my knowledge, these folks - Energy Beam Dynamics - do not have a website.
It continues to be about a 2 or 3 man company, I believe.  Tom Shepparak,
the developer of the device, is supposed to be faxing or sending me a copy
of the paper that was prepared a couple of years ago when the US Navy took a
look at some possibilities for the beam.

John, I will e-mail you a contact phone number.  For any other vortex
members, please contact me off - list, and I can supply this to you as well.

NR


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: "Nicholas Reiter" <nreiter woh.rr.com>
Cc: "vortex-L" <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: Unusual interaction of a laser beam with a plasma


>
>
> Dear Nicholas,
>
> Can we get any more information, such as the URL or information
> source this experimental work came from?
>
> Please.
>
> Thank you,
>
> JH
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 15 15:49:52 2002
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject:  The Aspen Effect has been tested, and it is for real!
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	Same question here.... any validators of OU, as described below?

If you are one of the "MANY MANY" people in the US that has replicated 
and seen the Aspend effect please email me. I would like to see and 
discuss this.

Norman

On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Tim wrote:
> http://www.geocities.com/theadamsmotor/cdmotor.html
> That's a motor that reproduces the Aspden effect.
> About $50.
> 
> It also produces massive over-unity, if that interests you.> 
> MANY MANY people have now validated this fact.
> The Adamsmotor Egroup validated the Aspden effect several months ago.
> It's hardly news, as such.
> 
> Tim
> 

	

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 15 16:27:09 2002
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Unusual interaction of a laser beam with a plasma
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At 10:25 AM 11/16/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Also check out the Compton effect, which though normally only applied to
>high energy photons, is actually valid for all photons.


All photon momentum transfer effects are limited to momentum p = E/c.  This
is barely measurable for common laser photon energies, so it does not seem
likely that a visible jet deflection could result from laser beam momentum.


It seems to me that the likely conventional explanation might be plasma
heating and expansion (on the laser side of the jet) deflecting the jet.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 15 21:09:09 2002
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Suppose problems come from another direction.  Suppose this is all true
and an explanation will be forced on the scientific establishments by a
stark fait-de-compli in progress.  I read somewhere about this process that
at some point in time it becomes self catalyzing.  This process burns water
and produces some dense by product that probably is no substitute for the
water in our own bodies.  What is to stop it from turning our Earth into
another Venus.....and incinerates us in the process!?  
   Somebody come up with a reply to this that convincingly does not spell
the end of all of us;  some way that this can be used safely.  It would be
beautiful if that BLP rocket works at high output;  already feel confident 
that it does work based on the final report from Rowan to NIAC.  Would make
a fine propulsion device for the next generation shuttle........maybe not
even need a booster.....true single stage to orbit







Tuesday 12 November 2002 02:54, Mike Carrell wrote:
> Jed said:
> 
> 
> 
> > By the way, the quote about Edison came from R. Conot, "A Streak of Luck,"
> > (Da Capo edition), p. 164
> >
> > Stripping away a few details and some confusion, Mike Carrell and I
> > actually agree on most points relating to Mills. We agree that Mills may
> > find it difficult to overcome opposition from vested interests even though
> > in a rational world, scientific proof should be enough to convince people.
> 
> Jed and I agree on many things. I think the LENR-CANR website is a great
> contribution.
> >
> > Actually, I am more optimistic than Carrell about this point. I think the
> > 20-watt experiment, if properly employed, *would* be enough to convince
> > society, and bring Mills everything he desires, even without a
> > self-sustaining demonstration.
> 
> Sounds great, but what does "properly employed" mean? In the CF arena, there
> were dreams of a small device that once activated would manifest safe heat
> all by itself, sitting on a desk in impudent defiance of received opinion.
> Multiplied, it would force recognition of the "unknown nuclear reaction". It
> could be a toy and create a buzz, and by replication crush all attempts to
> deny its existence. Eventually the APS would cave in and Park would be
> parked.
> 
> For BLP, there are two "wow" possibilities. One is the "water engine", a box
> that produces substantial energy using a few drops of water as fuel. Such a
> thing is theoretically possible, but at present it is like a laptop computer
> against ENIAC. They are siblings, separated by a few decades in time but by
> tens of thousands of man-years and billions of investment.
> 
> The second is the BLP battery, which has such great storage potential that
> if realized it could solved in a stroke the utilization of wind and solar
> energy and transportation. So much has to happen before such a thing could
> be shown that I hazard no guess as to the time. Mills told me once he would
> be happy with something twice as good as lithium-ion technology for
> starters.
> 
> Edison would have made no impact with lamps that lasted ten minutes. He had
> to master a whole technology before surfacing. Mills is in the same
> position. He has to know how to build the equivalent of the Pearl Street
> Station before going "public". If he is there, he isn't saying so.
> 
> A self-sustaining system would be better,
> > but what he has now is good enough. I base that statement on the support
> > for cold fusion I have seen over the years. That support is more
> widespread
> > than people realize. I wish the CF scientists would seek out supporters,
> > take advantage of this hidden reserve of enthusiasm and goodwill, and
> > publish papers for this audience. Unfortunately, many of them go out of
> > their way to alienate supporters instead.
> 
> Jed hasn't been paying attention to Mills. For a time after the Hydrino
> Study Group (HSG) was founded (BLP equivalent of Vortex), Mills monitored
> the conversation and would occasionally respond to criticisms and comments.
> One critic went on and on about some perceived errors in spectroscopic
> measurements, and BLP responded by refining the critical paper, which only
> strengthened Mills' position. I have since engaged that person off-line in a
> private dialogue and find that he "doesn't believe in hydrinos" and is
> endlessly inventive in speculating about errors, beyond any reason. We have
> seen his type on Vortex.
> 
> Mills is polite and generous with his time. But he has too much to do to
> answer endless stupid questions.
> 
> What Mills has now is more than good enough for someone able to understand
> the papers. Gene Mallove can, Jed cannot. No insult here, just the facts.
> >
> > The other disagreements between Carrel and I are somewhat more subtle than
> > they seem. They more a matter of emphasis and timing than substance. I
> > think the PR campaign must come before a major, multi-million dollar
> > development effort. Carrel & Mills think development must come first, and
> > they hope to spring a full-blown prototype on society.
> 
> If you don't have something ready, of what use is a promotional campaign?
> 
> The little water bath demo should tell any person of sufficient skill that
> there is a potential gold mine here. There is the potential to heat homes,
> boil oceans for fresh water, drive steamships, and so on. I've already cited
> papers and quoted numbers based on real experiments. Jed has simply not
> looked at them or understood them, for all his emphasis on reading the
> papers. And Jed is a relatively sophisticated person. It will take a company
> with strength and know-how to make it real, however. It's quite beyond BLP's
> resources.
> 
> I have discussed this point with Mills. I have long experience bridging
> between an R&D lab and production. There needs to be a bridge device between
> the dunked Evanson cavity and a manufacturable approach. This is a demo for
> a very small "public". For the right audience, it could create instant
> investment. There is a bit of an intellectual disconnect. Bridging it from
> the BLP side means diverting very thin resources from other work to engineer
> a demo unit. I know how fast something like this can eat up a budget.
> Gulp-Gone.
> 
> If they can do it,
> > more power to them. Perhaps they will succeed, but I think this strategy
> is
> > unnecessarily risky, expensive, time consuming, and it ignores the lessons
> > of history. I prefer to do things the easy way, with as much assurance of
> > success as possible, especially when I am fighting the oil industry -- the
> > most powerful, wealthy and ruthless gang of corporations and dictators on
> > earth. Without massively public support I see no chance of success.
> 
> You have to have a bulletproof technical position first. Jed isn't the only
> critic crying for replications before belief. There is one simple fact that
> is overlooked. At present the only "public" Mills is responsible to are his
> private ****qualified**** investors, who from available accounts are quite
> happy with the way he is spending their money. Mills' board is also
> qualified in a business and technical sense. When and if there is an IPO,
> then Mills will be responsible to public investors.
> 
> The strategy has been very low key, careful, and stingy. Mills has been
> carefully seeding the technical literature with papers supporting the
> existence and properties of hydrinos and experiments with them.
> Increasingly, these will appear in peer-reviewed journals. The USPTO will
> then be unable to claim that the Mills patents are invalid because they are
> not supported by received opinion. Mills is building for the long haul, for
> which the squabbles of Internet groups matter not. Defending attacks on his
> patents in court strengthens his positions, for undefended patents are so
> much paper. By going to court, Mills can smoke out hidden enemies and by
> systematic review of the literature he is creating with experimental
> evidence, win a strong position. A court battle will attract attention and
> free publicity. He will win, for court-appointed experts will review the lab
> results.
> >
> > Carrel is apparently convinced the findings are real. I don't know and I
> am
> > cautiously skeptical, but by no means would I categorically deny them!
> 
> That's a good start.
> 
> > There is a huge difference between demanding independent scientific
> > replications and setting some impossible goalpost such as "full
> > commercialization before I look at it." An anti-CF or anti-Mills skeptic
> > would demand impossible levels of proof. I want standard levels - 5 or 10
> > independent replications. This is what you would demand for an plodding,
> > conventional, incremental new claim in physics or engineering.
> 
> And Jed, they are there if you will look for them. It depends on how well
> you understand the technical issues and how severe your test of
> "independence" is. This link
> http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/validation.pdf  gives a validation
> summary with references to other documents, many published. The list is
> terse and quite technical and meaningless unless you are at a level of
> understanding the significance. Early in his work, Mills contracted with a
> series of university and industrial labs, Thermacore among them, to carry
> out experiments. In the past, reports of these experiments were posted on
> the BLP website, and later summaries of findings by other labs confirming
> various aspects of Mills' theory. Now severe critics will not allow these
> results because they were commissioned by Mills. By implication,
> institutions such as Penn State and Lehigh University were bribed by Mills
> to report what he wanted. Does your skepticism run so far as that? Mine
> doesn't.
> 
> And don't count Scott Little's failure to "replicate" Mills. I have seen the
> setup he used, and in no sense was it a replication of the experimental
> apparatus Mills uses.
> >
> > If these noble gas experiments can be replicated, they are the best proof
> > Mills has yet presented, and the technique may have commercial value.
> 
> If you read carefully, they already have been "replicated". Mills cites the
> earlier papers, results found, and the "explanations" attempted. No, these
> were not the exact setups Mills uses, but the same can be said of the many
> experiments supporting LENR. If you cite those as support, then you must
> accept the earlier work Mills cites as well.
> >
> > Of course I realize that public support is difficult to secure, and it is
> > no instant guarantee of success.
> 
> Public support will come by subscription to an IPO. There has to be devices,
> yet you have ridiculed the forward statements in the company profile.
> 
> >The public overwhelmingly supports
> > conservation and better automotive gas mileage, but the oil industry and
> > the administration have prevented any improvements over the last twenty
> > years.
> 
> You mean cars now don't get better mileage than 20 years ago? Is the
> "public" ready to give up comfort and performance for better mileage?
> 
> We do not live in a perfect democracy or a perfectly free society.
> > The oil industry has great influence over the government, the Congress and
> > the press. But at least you have some hope of winning when you make your
> > case in the public forum, working person-to-person, convincing
> sympathetic,
> > rational scientists instead of flakes like Robert Park.
> 
> Mills does not bother with Park. Park creates public noise and chatter by
> technical journalists. Others pull strings. Mills talks to the American
> Chemical Society and the Environmental Protection Agency.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Mike Carrell
> 
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 16 06:07:07 2002
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Mills' business strategy
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Yakov wrote:


> Suppose problems come from another direction.  Suppose this is all true
> and an explanation will be forced on the scientific establishments by a
> stark fait-de-compli in progress.  I read somewhere about this process
that
> at some point in time it becomes self catalyzing.  This process burns
water
> and produces some dense by product that probably is no substitute for the
> water in our own bodies.  What is to stop it from turning our Earth into
> another Venus.....and incinerates us in the process!?

>    Somebody come up with a reply to this that convincingly does not spell
> the end of all of us;  some way that this can be used safely.  It would be
> beautiful if that BLP rocket works at high output;  already feel confident
> that it does work based on the final report from Rowan to NIAC.  Would
make
> a fine propulsion device for the next generation shuttle........maybe not
> even need a booster.....true single stage to orbit

A great many things stop this vision of a runaway condition. There is an old
story by Kurt Vonnegut called, I think, "Ice Nine" about a supposed form of
crystalline water with wondrous properties but also the ability to catalyze
any water into a crystalline state. One can guess where greed leads in the
story. I don't remember the details.

Fission reactions rely on this "chain reaction", but such occurs only in
specially prepared materials and structures. It doesn't happen naturally,
although there is some evidence that at least once in the planet's history
the conditions for a low-level chain reaction did occur naturally but is
effects were soon quenched. The chain reaction is self-amplifying unless
quenched. This is the function of neutron-absorbing control rods used in
power reactors.

It is true that hydrinos can catalyze hydrinos with increasing energy yield.
But hydrinos do not produce hydrinos from atomic hydrogen; that requires a
separate catalyst. Production of hydrinos from atomic hydrogen requires
special conditions, produced in BLP reactors. Available evidence indicates
that while the reaction of hydrinos producing hydrinos can occur, as the
degree of reduction increases, the events producing the reduction become
increasingly rare. This is not the condition for the nuclear chain reaction,
which exponentially increases unless moderated. All this has a deep
influence on Mills' long term technical strategy.

Thus this whole process requires special conditions not found in the normal
Earth environment and there is zero danger of the scenario that Yakov
suggested.

Mike Carrell








From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 16 08:47:29 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Mills' business strategy
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 12:02:36 -0500
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Hi.

Funny you should mention ice-9, I thought of the same
thing when I read Yakov's post. I disagree though, he's
bringing up a very good point.

For assume that hydrinos are real. Due to the difficulty
of manufacture, the balance of earth's H is the normal
form. Now we introduce wide scale Mill's technology. Naturally
the balance will tend to tip in the other direction.
What determines the H/hydrino balance in nature? And why,
if it's a lower energy state, isn't all H in the hydrino
form already?

Also, I would like to think that there's a cage of mice
in Mill's lab which are being raised on hydrino fortified
water. Certainly if a rocket application is being considered.
Last time I checked, NASA wasn't sending some guy
with a pooper scooper to follow the space shuttle and
clean up after the exhaust plume.

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Carrell [mailto:mikec snip.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 12:05 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mills' business strategy


Yakov wrote:


> Suppose problems come from another direction.  Suppose this is all true
> and an explanation will be forced on the scientific establishments by a
> stark fait-de-compli in progress.  I read somewhere about this process
that
> at some point in time it becomes self catalyzing.  This process burns
water
> and produces some dense by product that probably is no substitute for the
> water in our own bodies.  What is to stop it from turning our Earth into
> another Venus.....and incinerates us in the process!?

>    Somebody come up with a reply to this that convincingly does not spell
> the end of all of us;  some way that this can be used safely.  It would be
> beautiful if that BLP rocket works at high output;  already feel confident
> that it does work based on the final report from Rowan to NIAC.  Would
make
> a fine propulsion device for the next generation shuttle........maybe not
> even need a booster.....true single stage to orbit

A great many things stop this vision of a runaway condition. There is an old
story by Kurt Vonnegut called, I think, "Ice Nine" about a supposed form of
crystalline water with wondrous properties but also the ability to catalyze
any water into a crystalline state. One can guess where greed leads in the
story. I don't remember the details.

Fission reactions rely on this "chain reaction", but such occurs only in
specially prepared materials and structures. It doesn't happen naturally,
although there is some evidence that at least once in the planet's history
the conditions for a low-level chain reaction did occur naturally but is
effects were soon quenched. The chain reaction is self-amplifying unless
quenched. This is the function of neutron-absorbing control rods used in
power reactors.

It is true that hydrinos can catalyze hydrinos with increasing energy yield.
But hydrinos do not produce hydrinos from atomic hydrogen; that requires a
separate catalyst. Production of hydrinos from atomic hydrogen requires
special conditions, produced in BLP reactors. Available evidence indicates
that while the reaction of hydrinos producing hydrinos can occur, as the
degree of reduction increases, the events producing the reduction become
increasingly rare. This is not the condition for the nuclear chain reaction,
which exponentially increases unless moderated. All this has a deep
influence on Mills' long term technical strategy.

Thus this whole process requires special conditions not found in the normal
Earth environment and there is zero danger of the scenario that Yakov
suggested.

Mike Carrell









From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 16 10:31:16 2002
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Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 13:29:46 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: LENR-CANR.org stats; Please phone home
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The number of downloads again increased nicely:

Week ending, PDF files downloaded
10/12/2002, 373
10/19/2002, 433
10/26/2002, 574
11/2/2002, 532
11/9/2002, 738
11/16/2002, 1,111

The number of visitors has not increased:

Week ending, Visitors
10/12/2002, 331
10/19/2002, 472
10/26/2002, 395
11/2/2002, 357
11/9/2002, 792
11/16/2002, 537

In other words, the average visitor is downloading more papers, perhaps 
because the number of papers on file has grown from ~60 to ~100.

In the last 24 hours, 140 copies of the Cravens paper were downloaded. 
Since I announced that paper here, I wonder if most of these 140 people 
were Vortex readers who flocked to download it. I am gratified if that is 
the case, but at the same time I am a little concerned that we are not 
reaching a larger audience, beyond those who already know about cold fusion.

Therefore, as a test, or a form of crude market research, I would like to 
ask readers here who downloaded the Cravens paper to Phone Home, like ET. 
Please zap me a brief e-mail, at my soon-to-be-defunct address:

JedRothwell infinite-energy.com

Subject: I read Cravens

A longer e-mail message would also be welcome!

Another thing Ed & I would welcome would be more opinions and feedback 
about LENR-CANR.org. You can post suggestion here, or e-mail them. Let us 
know what papers you would like to see added to the library, and what other 
features or information you would like to see. Also, ask the cold fusion 
scientists you know to send us material.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 16 10:56:41 2002
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 13:54:49 EST
Subject: BlackLight Rocket in Nature
To: hydrino yahoogroups.com
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Note last 4 grafs . . .

    
07 November 2002 
Nature 420, 10 - 11 (2002); doi:10.1038/420010a


Space science: Out of this world



NASA's Institute for Advanced Concepts aims to turn speculative ideas into
tomorrow's space missions. Tony Reichhardt attends its latest get-together,
and asks whether the investment is worth it.


R. M. WINGLEE; A. COLOZZA/OHIO AEROSPACE INST./R. MICHELSON/GEORGIA TECH.
RES. INST.; R. A. CASSANOVA

Thrusting forwards: the test set-up for a plasma-induced magnetic bubble
(top), and the insect-like Mars entomopter â€¹ two of the concepts being
backed by Robert Cassanova and his institute.
For an organization that declares itself "bounded only by the limits of the
human imagination", NASA's Institute for Advanced Concepts (NIAC) is housed
in a surprisingly down-at-heel neighbourhood. Home is a nondescript, grey
building in a slightly run-down section of Atlanta. Looming a mile or so in
the distance are the glittering high-rise offices of the South's largest
city, but this part of town is all 'space for rent' signs and cracked
pavements.

Out of such surroundings, NASA hopes to nurture some big ideas. Established
in 1998 with an annual budget of about $4 million, NIAC funds researchers
from outside NASA who want to work on long-term, speculative projects.
"We're not looking for evolutionary ideas," says director Robert Cassanova,
an aerospace engineer who used to run the nearby Georgia Tech Research
Institute. "We're looking for great leaps forward."

To date, more than 75 researchers have answered his call. Some propose
technology that appears to be achievable, such as sails that use sunlight to
propel spacecraft. Plans to send people and cargo into Earth orbits using
space elevators are more speculative. A few ideas, such as a study of a
propulsion system based on a hypothesized form of matter known as the
hydrino, are deemed unworthy of study by most researchers. But all fall
within NIAC's remit: the exploration of ideas that are likely to require
10Â­40 years to bring to fruition.

Late last month, recipients of NIAC funding gathered at a two-day workshop
at the institute's headquarters to discuss their progress. "Don't let your
preoccupation with reality stifle your imagination," declared one of
Cassanova's slides, and first-time attendees could be heard introducing
themselves with: "So what's your crazy idea?" But this was no crackpot
convention, and there wasn't a warp drive in sight.

The outer limits
Cassanova says that a "good handful" of the 600-plus proposals received by
NIAC to date have been science fiction. But these don't qualify for phase I
funds â€¹ the institute's initial six-month grants of up to $75,000. NIAC
fellows are, for the most part, from universities, government labs and small
aerospace companies. Meeting presentations resemble those at other NASA
technical gatherings, with the main difference being that speculation is
encouraged. Audience members may ask for clarification, but if anyone has
doubts about whether an idea is practical, or even possible, they keep them
to themselves.

After two days of presentations, the difficulty of running a grants
programme for space missions that are decades away becomes clear. NIAC has a
radical philosophy, but other institutes have far greater resources. With
its limited budget, what can NIAC contribute?

Often it is a matter of finding a use for cutting-edge research from other
fields. Steven Howe, a physicist formerly with the Los Alamos National
Laboratory in New Mexico, has a phase I grant to develop plans for an
antimatter propulsion system. Antimatter rockets, which would use the energy
produced when matter and antimatter annihilate each other, have been dreamed
about for decades. But Howe, who founded Hbar Technologies, a Chicago-based
company that aims to develop antimatter technologies, points out that
physics is now catching up with science fiction.

Last month, researchers at CERN, the European particle-physics laboratory
near Geneva, described the production of about 50,000 antihydrogen atoms â€¹
the first time such a large quantity has been generated (M. Amoretti et al.
Nature 419, 456Â­459; 2002). And Fermilab, near Chicago, Illinois, is
producing upwards of 1014 antiprotons a year. Howe says it should soon be
possible to make the 30 milligrams or so of antimatter needed to send a
spacecraft to the Kuiper belt, the band of rocks and ice beyond Neptune.

Howe's design fires an antihydrogen beam at the uranium-coated inner surface
of a sail to trigger a fission reaction. He hopes to secure phase II
funding, which can provide up to $500,000 over two years, to investigate how
much momentum this reaction would transfer to the sail, and to study the
antimatter storage techniques being developed at CERN and other labs.

Other NIAC fellows want to exploit existing technology. Anthony Colozza at
the Ohio Aerospace Institute in Cleveland has his eyes on the 'entomopter',
a flying robotic vehicle that mimics the motion of an insect's wings. The
device is the work of Robert Michelson, an engineer at the Georgia Tech
Research Institute, who developed it for the US Department of Defense.
Colozza has designed a system for surveying the surface of Mars using a
camera carried by the entomopter. The device is ideal for use on the red
planet, where the thin air would make it impossible for craft with
conventional wings to fly at low speeds, or to land. NIAC liked the idea
enough to give it phase II funding.

Then there are the genuinely novel ideas. In the first round of NIAC grants
in 1998, Robert Winglee, a space physicist at the University of Washington
in Seattle, won funding for his Mini-Magnetospheric Plasma Propulsion (M2P2)
concept. Winglee proposes creating a large magnetic bubble around a
spacecraft by using a plasma to expand an existing magnetic field. The
bubble would deflect the stream of charged particles, known as the solar
wind, that flows from the Sun.

The small but constant pressure against the bubble's large surface area
would accelerate a 200-kilogram payload to 80 kilometres per second within
three months. A trip to Pluto would take six years, instead of the ten it
takes now. Better yet, building such a vehicle would not require huge
technological leaps.

The M2P2 study was an eye-opener for NASA, admits Murray Hirschbein, who is
senior adviser to the agency's chief technologist. "Instead of something 10
to 40 years in the future, it may be a lot closer," he says. Winglee's NIAC
grant expired last year, but the work has already produced promising results
in test chambers. It is likely to be picked up by NASA's advanced propulsion
programme, and the agency might produce a working prototype for testing in
space.

Mission improbable
Not all NIAC fellows are so lucky. The institute aims to draw clever ideas
from outside NASA, validate the best ones and have the space agency take
over. But some researchers say that "not invented here" attitudes within
NASA ensure that few NIAC ideas will ever do more than gather dust.

One such critic is Ivan Bekey, a space technology consultant from Annandale,
Virginia, and former head of NASA's advanced concepts programme, an in-house
scheme that pre-dates NIAC. After leaving the agency in 1997, he won a phase
I NIAC grant to study the feasibility of a large space telescope with no
supporting structure, just a thin membrane shaped into a reflecting surface.
The telescope's instruments would fly in formation to collect radiation
reflected by the membrane. If the technique worked, it would lead to
revolutionary devices 125 times lighter than the Hubble Space Telescope, but
with mirrors ten times the diameter of Hubble's.

Bekey was turned down for a phase II grant but received funding from the
National Reconnaissance Office, a government body that builds spy
satellites. He says that an advanced concepts programme would be better off
run from NASA's Washington headquarters. Bekey doesn't dispute the quality
of NIAC's work, but says that it is divorced from the rest of NASA. Without
advocates within the agency, NIAC is doomed to generate "nice reports, and
that's it", he says.

Success stories such as Winglee's plasma propulsion do indeed appear rare,
and most phase II concepts end up as orphans. The entomopter, for example,
is too immature a technology to be incorporated into the Mars missions
planned for the next decade, which leaves Colozza struggling to find funding
to continue his work now that his phase II funding has ended.

But Hirschbein isn't worried if most NIAC ideas languish on the shelf.
"These are advanced concepts," he says. "They're not going to find a direct
home right away." NIAC's real purpose, he adds, is to influence NASA's
"general thought process". That means the NIAC fellows may not even be
involved if their idea eventually flies.

But what of NIAC ideas that only a tiny minority believe will ever take off?
Projects that are, in Cassanova's words, "on the fringe". Exhibit A is the
BlackLight Rocket. According to its backers, the device uses a mysterious
new form of power generated when a hydrogen atom becomes a hydrino â€¹ a
hydrogen atom whose electron is unusually close to its nucleus.

Mainstream physicists contend that electrons cannot approach the nucleus as
closely as the hydrino team predicts. But Anthony Marchese, a mechanical
engineer at Rowan University in Glassboro, New Jersey, has a phase I grant
to study the propulsion possibilities of such an energy source. Marchese
doesn't buy all the claims being made by BlackLight Power, the New Jersey
company that is developing hydrino-based technologies, but he does believe
that "there is something going on that's interesting".

This vagueness, together with the ridicule heaped on hydrino research by
figures such as Robert Park, the American Physical Society's director of
public information and a keen observer of pseudo-science, makes some NIAC
officials nervous about having funded Marchese's work.

But others say this twilight zone between safe and wacky is where NIAC
belongs. During a break in the workshop, engineer Donna Shirley, who worked
on NASA's celebrated Mars Pathfinder mission in the 1990s before moving to
the University of Oklahoma, points out that many of the ideas could be duds,
but the investment is worthwhile if an occasional jewel is produced. And the
ideas presented at this meeting, says Shirley, are more interesting than the
fare at other advanced concepts workshops. But, she adds with a smile, "not
as good as at a science fiction convention".

http://www.niac.usra.edu



TONY REICHHARDT 
Tony Reichhardt writes for Nature from Washington.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nature Â© Macmillan Publishers Ltd 2002 Registered No. 785998 England. 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 16 13:43:45 2002
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Need heat pipe source info ... 
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	Dear Vo.,

	I am looking for PLEASE .... some help with Heat Pipe application
for ultimate use in a home fireplace ....
	A)	Vendor
	B)	design information for materials and temperatures of
			average home fireplace ... just brick and grate
			plus andirons ...... no insert
	C)	vendor[s] of:

		1)	circulated fluid
		2)	heat pipe ... and pipes 
		3)	heat pipe systems
		4)	home made types, plans, people

			Please and thank you.

					JH Schurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 16 14:23:24 2002
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Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 15:33:44 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------09ABE7E7D6A24729586E3D55
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Thermacore http://www.thermacore.com/mcp.htm
Indek Corporattion http://www.indek.com/products/product.html
Noren Products http://www.norenproducts.com/Heat_Pipe_Main_Page.html

Indium Corporation http://www.indium.com/index1.html

Ed

John Schnurer wrote:

>         Dear Vo.,
>
>         I am looking for PLEASE .... some help with Heat Pipe application
> for ultimate use in a home fireplace ....
>         A)      Vendor
>         B)      design information for materials and temperatures of
>                         average home fireplace ... just brick and grate
>                         plus andirons ...... no insert
>         C)      vendor[s] of:
>
>                 1)      circulated fluid
>                 2)      heat pipe ... and pipes
>                 3)      heat pipe systems
>                 4)      home made types, plans, people
>
>                         Please and thank you.
>
>                                         JH Schurer

--------------09ABE7E7D6A24729586E3D55
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--------------09ABE7E7D6A24729586E3D55--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 16 16:03:39 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mills' business strategy
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:02:07 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <m3ndtusakvkcq6vviipfi2nvlpece12181 4ax.com>
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In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Sat, 16 Nov 2002 12:02:36 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>For assume that hydrinos are real. Due to the difficulty
>of manufacture, the balance of earth's H is the normal
>form. Now we introduce wide scale Mill's technology. Naturally
>the balance will tend to tip in the other direction.
>What determines the H/hydrino balance in nature? And why,
>if it's a lower energy state, isn't all H in the hydrino
>form already?
[snip]
Hydrinos may be difficult to manufacture, but nature has a very big lab,
and lots of time. I think it's safe to say that if they exist at all,
then they must be created in nature occasionally (particularly in the oceans, where potassium salts are present).
Neither under the special conditions in Mills' lab, nor in nature has
a run away reaction occurred. Therefore I seriously doubt this is a possibility.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 16 16:03:48 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Unusual interaction of a laser beam with a plasma
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:01:50 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:37:38 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

>At 10:25 AM 11/16/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>>Also check out the Compton effect, which though normally only applied to
>>high energy photons, is actually valid for all photons.
>
>
>All photon momentum transfer effects are limited to momentum p = E/c.  This
>is barely measurable for common laser photon energies, so it does not seem
>likely that a visible jet deflection could result from laser beam momentum.

I agree, however I mentioned it simply as an indication of a known effect where charged particles and photons interact. It may provide a starting point
for further library research.

>
>
>It seems to me that the likely conventional explanation might be plasma
>heating and expansion (on the laser side of the jet) deflecting the jet.
[snip]
I also considered this, however it seems to me that the plasma jet is probably already much hotter than the likely slight heating of the air due to
a milliwatt laser.

Actually I think the most likely explanation is that the laser accelerates
some of the charged particles (bench top accelerator mechanism), which in turn results in a charge separation creating a local field that distorts the rest of the plasma.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 16 18:53:28 2002
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Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 19:06:01 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Unusual interaction of a laser beam with a plasma
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At 11:01 AM 11/17/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>I also considered this, however it seems to me that the plasma jet is
>probably already much hotter than the likely slight heating of the air due
>to
>a milliwatt laser.


I expect the laser to heat the jet, not the air.  The fact the laser is He
Ne may be significant in its ability to heat the He jet.  I must admit,
however, I overlooked in the statement "Shepparak claims that even a 5mW
HeNe causes the jet to deflect noticeably." that the power was a mere 5 mW.
That does not seem to be enough power to affect the beam direction by
heating.



>
>Actually I think the most likely explanation is that the laser accelerates
>some of the charged particles (bench top accelerator mechanism), which in
>turn results in a charge separation creating a local field that distorts
>the rest of the plasma.


Whatever the laser beam does it likely can not appreciably affect the jet
direction via the laser beam momentum, regardless of the choice of
mechanism.  The net lateral momentum of the jet must remain zero because
the net momentum of the laser beam is zero for all practical purposes.  The
effect of the laser on the jet is limited by the particle kinetics, by the
particle momenta.

Much more meaningful quatitative statements can be made if the gas jet flow
rate and cross sectional area is given.

Perhaps the laser acts upon the electrons in such a way that lateral
momentum is achieved by a force transmitted directly to/from the nozzel
rim, and this is how momentum is conserved.  Perhaps the laser sets up some
kind of standing wave that deflects the beam, and applies torque to the
nozzel.

The deflection can not be due to an electron cloud being stripped off (in a
lateral direction to the jet)  by the photon momentum and then the
electrons attracting the rest of the jet along with the electrons, because
the initial lateral momentum of the electrons would have to be too great
for the photon beam to supply it.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 16 19:07:15 2002
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Unusual interaction of a laser beam with a plasma
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I wrote: "Perhaps the laser acts upon the electrons in such a way that
lateral momentum is achieved by a force transmitted directly to/from the
nozzel rim, and this is how momentum is conserved.  Perhaps the laser sets
up some kind of standing wave that deflects the beam, and applies torque to
the nozzel."

I sometimes say "beam when I mean "jet".  I meant to write: "Perhaps the
laser acts upon the electrons in such a way that lateral momentum is
achieved by a force transmitted directly to/from the nozzel rim, and this
is how momentum is conserved.  Perhaps the laser sets up some kind of
standing wave that deflects the JET, and applies torque to the nozzel."

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 16 21:10:53 2002
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Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 07:09:34 +0200
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Dear Horace and All,

My critic is not for Horace but to other people in general. 

I common mistake or laziness on giving opinions on anomalies like this case is people ignore the anomaly is related to a specific condition just like this experiment, They are lazy enough to check their propositions on other common conditions where it is known the anomaly does not exist. For example a laser can not bend flame of ordinary torch or its variation. So the scientific thinking should consider specific conditions as well as general conditions.

It would be also a good start to look for other effects where a flame or plasma is bend by non-mechnical effects. For example flame is bend in presence of strong electric field. So next step could be testing how this plasma affected by a electric field. also by a nearby magnet. As this plasma carry current, it would be expected magnetic field bend it in some extend.

It would also very interesting technologically bending beams by fields, because it allow precisely focus the plasma allowing to obtain very high temperatures.  


Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> At 11:01 AM 11/17/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> 
> >I also considered this, however it seems to me that the plasma jet is
> >probably already much hotter than the likely slight heating of the air due
> >to
> >a milliwatt laser.
> 
> I expect the laser to heat the jet, not the air.  The fact the laser is He
> Ne may be significant in its ability to heat the He jet.  I must admit,
> however, I overlooked in the statement "Shepparak claims that even a 5mW
> HeNe causes the jet to deflect noticeably." that the power was a mere 5 mW.
> That does not seem to be enough power to affect the beam direction by
> heating.
> 
> >
> >Actually I think the most likely explanation is that the laser accelerates
> >some of the charged particles (bench top accelerator mechanism), which in
> >turn results in a charge separation creating a local field that distorts
> >the rest of the plasma.
> 
> Whatever the laser beam does it likely can not appreciably affect the jet
> direction via the laser beam momentum, regardless of the choice of
> mechanism.  The net lateral momentum of the jet must remain zero because
> the net momentum of the laser beam is zero for all practical purposes.  The
> effect of the laser on the jet is limited by the particle kinetics, by the
> particle momenta.
> 
> Much more meaningful quatitative statements can be made if the gas jet flow
> rate and cross sectional area is given.
> 
> Perhaps the laser acts upon the electrons in such a way that lateral
> momentum is achieved by a force transmitted directly to/from the nozzel
> rim, and this is how momentum is conserved.  Perhaps the laser sets up some
> kind of standing wave that deflects the beam, and applies torque to the
> nozzel.
> 
> The deflection can not be due to an electron cloud being stripped off (in a
> lateral direction to the jet)  by the photon momentum and then the
> electrons attracting the rest of the jet along with the electrons, because
> the initial lateral momentum of the electrons would have to be too great
> for the photon beam to supply it.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 17 03:57:05 2002
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From: "Nicholas Reiter" <nreiter woh.rr.com>
To: "vortex-L" <vortex-L eskimo.com>
References: <v0153050bb9fcb30d3175 [12.21.208.92]> <3DD7248E.15215CEA@verisoft.com.tr>
Subject: Re: Unusual interaction of a laser beam with a plasma
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Hamdi,

This is a good point.  On the other hand, I perhaps should offer my
apologies if I did not state clearly enough that I have not seen the
specific effect in action yet - only the device wherein it is said to occur.

My posing this matter here on vortex was one of second guessing myself.
Since my knowledge of plasma physics is far less than the level of some who
might be on here, I wanted to do a little exploratory research to see if
anything even vaguely similar to what was reported exists and is already
studied.  There may be lots I do not know, that is already well known by
other specialists.

So in that sense, I did actually put out the call for everybody to throw in
their 2 cents worth.  And they have, with some tidbits for me to follow up
on.

As always, though, I remain the archetypal empiricist.  If Tom and his team
cannot show me the effect, or if I try it myself there with my own laser,
and I don't see it, then I will move on to the next anomaly, without any
further armchair theorizing.

Thanks, all

NR
----- Original Message -----
From: "hamdi ucar" <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 12:09 AM
Subject: Re: Unusual interaction of a laser beam with a plasma


> Dear Horace and All,
>
> My critic is not for Horace but to other people in general.
>
> I common mistake or laziness on giving opinions on anomalies like this
case is people ignore the anomaly is related to a specific condition just
like this experiment, They are lazy enough to check their propositions on
other common conditions where it is known the anomaly does not exist. For
example a laser can not bend flame of ordinary torch or its variation. So
the scientific thinking should consider specific conditions as well as
general conditions.
>
> It would be also a good start to look for other effects where a flame or
plasma is bend by non-mechnical effects. For example flame is bend in
presence of strong electric field. So next step could be testing how this
plasma affected by a electric field. also by a nearby magnet. As this plasma
carry current, it would be expected magnetic field bend it in some extend.
>
> It would also very interesting technologically bending beams by fields,
because it allow precisely focus the plasma allowing to obtain very high
temperatures.
>
>
> Horace Heffner wrote:
> >
> > At 11:01 AM 11/17/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> >
> > >I also considered this, however it seems to me that the plasma jet is
> > >probably already much hotter than the likely slight heating of the air
due
> > >to
> > >a milliwatt laser.
> >
> > I expect the laser to heat the jet, not the air.  The fact the laser is
He
> > Ne may be significant in its ability to heat the He jet.  I must admit,
> > however, I overlooked in the statement "Shepparak claims that even a 5mW
> > HeNe causes the jet to deflect noticeably." that the power was a mere 5
mW.
> > That does not seem to be enough power to affect the beam direction by
> > heating.
> >
> > >
> > >Actually I think the most likely explanation is that the laser
accelerates
> > >some of the charged particles (bench top accelerator mechanism), which
in
> > >turn results in a charge separation creating a local field that
distorts
> > >the rest of the plasma.
> >
> > Whatever the laser beam does it likely can not appreciably affect the
jet
> > direction via the laser beam momentum, regardless of the choice of
> > mechanism.  The net lateral momentum of the jet must remain zero because
> > the net momentum of the laser beam is zero for all practical purposes.
The
> > effect of the laser on the jet is limited by the particle kinetics, by
the
> > particle momenta.
> >
> > Much more meaningful quatitative statements can be made if the gas jet
flow
> > rate and cross sectional area is given.
> >
> > Perhaps the laser acts upon the electrons in such a way that lateral
> > momentum is achieved by a force transmitted directly to/from the nozzel
> > rim, and this is how momentum is conserved.  Perhaps the laser sets up
some
> > kind of standing wave that deflects the beam, and applies torque to the
> > nozzel.
> >
> > The deflection can not be due to an electron cloud being stripped off
(in a
> > lateral direction to the jet)  by the photon momentum and then the
> > electrons attracting the rest of the jet along with the electrons,
because
> > the initial lateral momentum of the electrons would have to be too great
> > for the photon beam to supply it.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Horace Heffner
>
> Regards,
>
> hamdi ucar
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 18 08:52:48 2002
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Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:46:18 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Cookin' up a storm
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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For your amusement as a prelude to "turkey day,"=20

Most readers of this forum are familiar with Bill B's excellent web site =
and in particular, the aptly named:   *Unwise Microwave Oven =
Experiments*
Probably more than a few of you have even tried a "ball lightning" =
variant.

BTW, if you have children/grandchildren around the house who share (or =
sneak into) your computer files, together with a clean kitchen that your =
spouse would like to keep that way, then immediately erase this message =
and return to less threatening fare.

Last night I was surfing through Bill's site, and the recent disclosure =
of excess energy purported to have been obtained by Blacklight Power =
came to mind - in which simple microwave plasmas of water vapor are used =
- and cognizant that many kitchens nowadays are equipped with those =
vacuum-sealer machines for freezer bags, and wondering what would happen =
if the unwitting housewife stumbled on .... well, not to worry, it =
really couldn't happen without some major planning, but... It turns out =
that BLP doesn't use a high vacuum for active plasmas and one of those =
home sealers might draw down a plastic cup with a few drops of H2O, =
placed in a freezer baggie, down to low enough of a vacuum to see some =
fleeting anomaly in an irradiated plasma under just the right =
circumstances.=20

Perhaps even a hydrino-fueled ball lightning?

Not likely, but even if a school kid did want to pursue this for a =
science project, say looking for an abnormal temperature gain using a =
few drops of water in one run and a few drops of water in boric acid for =
another - a big problem would be, what does one use for a "control"? =
There are almost no common kitchen liquids that don't contain a lot of =
water. Vinegar is 95% water, vodka 60%, Baccardi 151 is getting closer =
(but you better save that for when your spouse comes home early and =
blames this episode on you, rather than junior. There are few good =
choices for a commonly available control liquid that are not extremely =
flammable, or inflammable, if you prefer one of the oddest quirks in the =
English language. So even though this experiment should not spark, and =
microwave energy is non-ionizing, nevertheless DO NOT let your advisee =
use anything flammable for a control. Butter should do just fine.

OK. Enough chewing the fat. All of the above excess verbiage (and futile =
attempt at humor) is really leading up to this one serious observation =
about why Mills uses a common microwave 2.45 Ghz tube as power input for =
his water vapor plasmas.=20

It is this:

1) in order to accomplish shrinkage below ground state, Mills needs to =
get a population of hydrogen *occasionally* into only its singlet atomic =
form, NOT ionic form, NOT molecular form AND the average physical =
spacing between hydrogen is critical to success. A spacing of slightly =
less than 50 nm is ideal and Mills' vacuum pressures are likely chosen =
to maximize this spacing between the hydrogen singlet and adjacent =
molecules. Shrinkage is rapid, so even a few  nanosecond as a singlet =
could be enough time.

2) microwave energy is non-ionizing so an isolated hydrogen will not =
completely ionize, but it will periodically "stretch," becoming a =
"virtual singlet".

3) the microwave heating effect is due to dielectric polarization and =
molecular resonance - and this particular  frequency, 2.45 Ghz , was =
chosen because the OH radical and OH bond (which are common in all =
foods, particularly fats) is resonant precisely there, therefore the OH =
continually attempts to rotate to align itself with the applied field =
and absorbs energy by coupling with this exact microwave frequency. When =
this happens with water vapor, H2O, then one of the two hydrogen atoms =
becomes the "odd-man-out," and though it will not ionize, it will =
stretch to its elastic limit (if the plasma is at the correct =
pressurization) and at this elastic limit, it may occasionally *shrink * =
below ground state, due to one of two things: either the presence of a =
physical catalyst that presents an "energy hole" (according to Mills) or =
equally if not more likely, an imposed nano-pressure due to Beta-aether =
(ZPE) disruption (according to the present writer and F. Grimer).

Next time you throw in a bag of microwave popcorn, ask yourself this, =
"what is really going on in there"?

Jones Beene




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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>For your amusement as a prelude to "turkey day," </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Most readers of this forum are familiar with Bill B's excellent web =
site=20
and in particular, the aptly named:&nbsp;&nbsp; *Unwise Microwave Oven=20
Experiments*</DIV>
<DIV>Probably more than a few of you have even tried a "ball lightning"=20
variant.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>BTW, if you have children/grandchildren around the house who share =
(or=20
sneak into) your computer files, together with a clean kitchen that your =
spouse=20
would like to keep that way, then immediately erase this message and =
return to=20
less threatening fare.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Last night I was surfing through Bill's site, and the recent =
disclosure of=20
excess energy purported to have been obtained by Blacklight Power came =
to mind -=20
in which simple microwave plasmas of water vapor are used - and =
cognizant that=20
many kitchens nowadays are equipped with those vacuum-sealer machines =
for=20
freezer bags, and wondering what would happen if the unwitting housewife =

stumbled on .... well, not to worry, it really couldn't happen without =
some=20
major planning, but... It turns out that BLP doesn't use a high vacuum =
for=20
active plasmas and one of those home sealers might draw down a plastic =
cup with=20
a few drops of H2O, placed in a freezer baggie, down&nbsp;to low enough =
of a=20
vacuum to see some fleeting anomaly in an irradiated plasma under just =
the right=20
circumstances. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Perhaps even a hydrino-fueled ball lightning?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Not likely, but even if a school kid did want to pursue this for a =
science=20
project, say looking for an abnormal temperature gain using a few drops =
of water=20
in one run and a few drops of water in boric acid for another&nbsp;- a =
big=20
problem would be, what does one use for a "control"? There are almost no =
common=20
kitchen liquids that don't contain a lot of water. Vinegar is 95% water, =
vodka=20
60%, Baccardi 151 is getting closer (but you better save that for when =
your=20
spouse comes home early and blames this episode on you, rather than =
junior.=20
There are few good choices for a commonly available control =
liquid&nbsp;that are=20
not extremely flammable, or inflammable, if you prefer one of the oddest =
quirks=20
in the English language. So even though this experiment should not =
spark, and=20
microwave energy is non-ionizing, nevertheless DO NOT let your advisee =
use=20
anything flammable for a control. Butter should do just fine.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>OK. Enough chewing the fat. All of the above excess verbiage (and =
futile=20
attempt at humor) is really leading up to this one serious observation =
about why=20
Mills uses a common microwave 2.45 Ghz tube as power input for his water =
vapor=20
plasmas. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It is this:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>1)&nbsp;in order to accomplish shrinkage below ground state, Mills =
needs to=20
get a population of hydrogen *occasionally* into only its&nbsp;singlet =
atomic=20
form, NOT ionic form, NOT molecular form AND the average physical =
spacing=20
between hydrogen is critical to success. A spacing of slightly less than =
50 nm=20
is ideal and Mills' vacuum pressures&nbsp;are likely chosen to maximize =
this=20
spacing between&nbsp;the hydrogen singlet and adjacent molecules. =
Shrinkage is=20
rapid, so even a few&nbsp; nanosecond as a singlet&nbsp;could =
be&nbsp;enough=20
time.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>2) microwave energy is non-ionizing so an isolated hydrogen will =
not=20
completely ionize, but it will periodically "stretch," becoming a =
"virtual=20
singlet".</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>3) the microwave heating effect is due to dielectric polarization =
and=20
molecular resonance - and this particular &nbsp;frequency, 2.45 Ghz , =
was chosen=20
because the OH radical and OH bond (which are common in all foods, =
particularly=20
fats) is resonant precisely there, therefore the OH continually attempts =
to=20
rotate to align itself with the applied field and absorbs energy by =
coupling=20
with this exact microwave frequency. When this happens with water=20
vapor,&nbsp;H2O, then one of the two hydrogen atoms&nbsp;becomes=20
the&nbsp;"odd-man-out," and though it will not ionize, it will stretch =
to its=20
elastic limit&nbsp;(if the plasma is&nbsp;at the correct pressurization) =

and&nbsp;at this elastic limit, it may occasionally *shrink * below =
ground=20
state, due to one of two things: either the presence of a physical =
catalyst that=20
presents an "energy hole" (according to Mills) or equally if not more =
likely, an=20
imposed nano-pressure due to Beta-aether (ZPE) disruption (according to =
the=20
present writer and F. Grimer).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Next time you throw in a bag of microwave popcorn, ask yourself =
this, "what=20
is really going on in there"?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones Beene</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 20 08:18:24 2002
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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:09:21 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: R. Oriani issues corrigendum to JJAP paper
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Richard Oriani just returned from a vacation. He sent me a note about the 
papers I uploaded onto LENR-CANR.org, and a correction to his recent paper 
in the Japanese Journal of Applied Physics. He calls it a "corrigendum" -- 
a word I had to look up in the dictionary:


"Now, with respect to my paper in Jpn. J. Appl. Phys.41 (2002) 6180 I have 
not had time to study the remarks of Kirk Shanahan . . . [T]he publisher 
reformatted the entries in the Table and made a mistake. The entries were 
correct in the proofs sent to me. We have sent in a corrigendum as follows:

Due to an error in the production process eight data entries (143, 143, 
118, 108, 95, 95, 75, 59) were shifted from the bottom of the 'Control' 
column of Table 1 to the bottom of the 'Active' column. They
should be shifted back to the bottom of the 'Control' column."


It is a shame the paper got messed up. I wonder if I can correct the 
Acrobat .pdf version and put on LENR-CANR.org. Maybe the JJAP On Line 
editors will correct their version. I can at least upload a corrected 
version of the table. (I have the full Acrobat package. I find the tools 
used to correct text are rather awkward.)

- Jed 


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This paper now makes sense.   The Shanahan critique no longer applies.  I
agree, you should make the corrections on the copy provided on the website,
with a comment that this was done.   I will change my critique, which shows
more clearly that the two sets are different than does the argument provided
by Oriani.

Ed

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Richard Oriani just returned from a vacation. He sent me a note about the
> papers I uploaded onto LENR-CANR.org, and a correction to his recent paper
> in the Japanese Journal of Applied Physics. He calls it a "corrigendum" --
> a word I had to look up in the dictionary:
>
> "Now, with respect to my paper in Jpn. J. Appl. Phys.41 (2002) 6180 I have
> not had time to study the remarks of Kirk Shanahan . . . [T]he publisher
> reformatted the entries in the Table and made a mistake. The entries were
> correct in the proofs sent to me. We have sent in a corrigendum as follows:
>
> Due to an error in the production process eight data entries (143, 143,
> 118, 108, 95, 95, 75, 59) were shifted from the bottom of the 'Control'
> column of Table 1 to the bottom of the 'Active' column. They
> should be shifted back to the bottom of the 'Control' column."
>
> It is a shame the paper got messed up. I wonder if I can correct the
> Acrobat .pdf version and put on LENR-CANR.org. Maybe the JJAP On Line
> editors will correct their version. I can at least upload a corrected
> version of the table. (I have the full Acrobat package. I find the tools
> used to correct text are rather awkward.)
>
> - Jed

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 20 11:07:47 2002
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Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:04:50 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Interesting PBS show about B. Franklin
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There was an interesting Public Television show about Benjamin Franklin 
last night, so if this is the first you have heard, you missed it. It 
described some of his scientific achievements, and showed some experiments 
in action. It begins by showing an experiment in which he attempted to 
electrocute a turkey, but he accidently knocked himself cold instead. The 
description of the 18th century "gentleman scientists" reminded me of CF 
researchers. Chris Tinsley called himself a "gentleman scientist" except, 
he noted, they were independently wealthy and he was flat broke.

It is a shame they did not tell more about Franklin's research, but there 
is a lot to say about the man, after all. His discoveries in electricity, 
weather, oceanography and mathematics, and his practical inventions were 
enough to make him one of the most famous people of the 18th century and 
one of the most important scientists in history. Add to that his 
contributions to public health, safety (firefighting and lightning) 
literacy (public libraries), education, urban design, politics, and his key 
role in winning the Revolutionary war and you have enough achievements for 
a dozen famous people. The only Americans who come close to him in 
intellect and achievements in both science and politics were Jefferson, and 
perhaps Theodore Roosevelt.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 21 06:56:50 2002
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Unusual interaction of a laser beam with a plasma
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At 6:55 AM 11/17/2, Nicholas Reiter wrote:

>So in that sense, I did actually put out the call for everybody to throw in
>their 2 cents worth.  And they have, with some tidbits for me to follow up
>on.

It would be appreciated if you could post some information on vortex when
and if it is available.  There may be more than 2 cents worth of info to
post.  8^)

1.  Does the jet operate in ambient conditions or in some kind of vacuum
    chamber?

2.  What is the approximate flow rate of the jet in vol/sec or gm/sec.?

3.  What is the approximate jet velocity?

4.  What is the nozzle area.  (Any two of questions 2-4 sufficient for
    force calculations, assuming jet is appx. ambient pressure.)

5.  Approximate jet deflection angle in degrees.

Thanks.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 21 07:49:03 2002
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Photons and dark matter
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In an earlier thread, "Photons and gravity, a thought experiment", I
suggested rationale for assuming that photons have mass corresponding to
their energy.  It is now of interest to estimate the average energy photons
must carry to account for dark matter.

"The measured abundance of helium in the universe (about 25% of all normal
matter) suggests that there is about one proton for every 10^10 photons."
Source: "PHYSICS NEWS UPDATE", The American Institute of Physics Bulletin
of Physics News Number 614  November 20, 2002   by Phillip F. Schewe, Ben
Stein, and James Riordon

Given the mass of the proton is 938 MeV, or 9.38x10^8 eV, and assuming
roughly 1 neutron per proton, photons can account for the dark mass of the
universe being about 4 times greater than the visible mass if 10^10 of them
carry 8 * 9.38x10^8 eV, or about 8x10^9 eV.  The average photon then need
carry at most 0.8 eV energy for photons to account for the dark matter of
the universe being roughly 4 times the mass of the visible matter.  The
actual amount of energy per photon required is less, due to the matter in
black holes being "dark" and also due to the aggreagate mass of neutrinos,
which are also "dark."

The energy of the photons existing inside stars, however, would have to be
excluded, however, because their mass, if it exists as posited, would be
included in the estimated mass of the star, assuming that the estimate of
the mass of such bodies is by gravitational effect.  This exclusion raises
the the average free photon energy required to account for dark matter
using photon mass.  However, most such intrnal photons eventually escape
the star, so, on average, perhaps this is not so significant an exclusion.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 21 11:26:12 2002
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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:23:24 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Photos help clarify an experiment
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I have been having difficulty understanding a new experiment by Mizuno et 
al., described in an upcoming paper "Confirmation of anomalous hydrogen 
generation by plasma electrolysis." They are collecting the hydrogen from 
glow discharge electrolysis and channelling it into a quadrupole mass 
spectrometer. I do not know whether the hydrogen in anomalous or not, but 
there is much more of it than normal electrolysis produces. Up to 60 times 
more.

More about that later. I expect Mizuno will let us post the paper on 
LENR-CANR.org where you can read all about it.

Anyway, I have written material in English and Japanese, a schematic, web 
sites of the equipment vendors and so on, but I was still floundering 
around trying to understand where the cooling water runs, how 
they  separates out oxygen and water vapor, and how the parts fit together. 
I figure if I cannot understand this, readers will also have problems. 
Today Mizuno sent me some sharp, large scale, close-up digital photos of 
the equipment. Suddenly everything is clear to me. There is nothing like 
*seeing something*. You still need schematics and descriptions, though. 
Without them you would see only a confused jumble of wires and tubes. As 
Arthur Clarke wrote: ". . . the eye had to be educated before it could pass 
intelligible impressions to the brain. Anything utterly unfamiliar could 
be, quite literally, invisible . . ." ("Imperial Earth")

Scientists, engineers and technical salespeople should learn to take 
advantage of photos, videos, color graphics and so on. Their presentations 
often depend on black & white graphs and written descriptions.

If we publish this paper on LENR-CANR I will include these photographs.

- Jed 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 21 12:00:54 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Photons and dark matter
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 06:57:26 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:00:45 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]

>In an earlier thread, "Photons and gravity, a thought experiment", I
>suggested rationale for assuming that photons have mass corresponding to
>their energy.  It is now of interest to estimate the average energy photons
>must carry to account for dark matter.
[snip]
What is the energy of the average photon in the microwave background?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 21 13:55:07 2002
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Subject: Re: Photons and dark matter
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In a message dated 11/21/02 3:00:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes:


> 
> >In an earlier thread, "Photons and gravity, a thought experiment", I
> >suggested rationale for assuming that photons have mass corresponding to
> >their energy.  It is now of interest to estimate the average energy 
> photons
> >must carry to account for dark matter.
> [snip

I have a paper on this.  Photons have gravitational "mass" due to the 
effective force they experience while propagating throught Hubble's constant.

 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/images/sourceof.txt">http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/images/sourceof.txt</A> 

Frank Z

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 11/21/02 3:00:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, rvanspaa bigpond.net.au writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
&gt;In an earlier thread, "Photons and gravity, a thought experiment", I<BR>
&gt;suggested rationale for assuming that photons have mass corresponding to<BR>
&gt;their energy.&nbsp; It is now of interest to estimate the average energy photons<BR>
&gt;must carry to account for dark matter.<BR>
[snip</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I have a paper on this.&nbsp; Photons have gravitational "mass" due to the effective force they experience while propagating throught Hubble's constant.<BR>
<BR>
 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/images/sourceof.txt">http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/images/sourceof.txt</A> <BR>
<BR>
Frank Z</FONT></HTML>

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From: "Nicholas Reiter" <nreiter woh.rr.com>
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Subject: Re: Unusual interaction of a laser beam with a plasma
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:39:32 -0500
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Horace,

I certainly will, whenever I have a chance to look at this again.  The
fellow in charge of the research is out of town for the rest of this week.
My guess is that by perhaps next Wednesday, I will can take a look at it,
hopefully with a laser of my own.

For right now...

1.  The plasma jet is in the open air. (like a plasma torch or flame spray
jet)
2.  I believe the He flow rate is something like .1 to 1 liter per minute
3,4,and 5 are still unknown.  The plasma oriface is annular, but it depends
on which model of the torch is fired up, with what tip.

Again, I invite you to contact Tom Shepparak at the phone number I provided
off-list.  He would be more than happy to discuss applications and ideas.

Best,

NR


----- Original Message -----
From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: Unusual interaction of a laser beam with a plasma


> At 6:55 AM 11/17/2, Nicholas Reiter wrote:
>
> >So in that sense, I did actually put out the call for everybody to throw
in
> >their 2 cents worth.  And they have, with some tidbits for me to follow
up
> >on.
>
> It would be appreciated if you could post some information on vortex when
> and if it is available.  There may be more than 2 cents worth of info to
> post.  8^)
>
> 1.  Does the jet operate in ambient conditions or in some kind of vacuum
>     chamber?
>
> 2.  What is the approximate flow rate of the jet in vol/sec or gm/sec.?
>
> 3.  What is the approximate jet velocity?
>
> 4.  What is the nozzle area.  (Any two of questions 2-4 sufficient for
>     force calculations, assuming jet is appx. ambient pressure.)
>
> 5.  Approximate jet deflection angle in degrees.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 21 14:49:37 2002
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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:00:46 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Photons and dark matter
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At 6:57 AM 11/22/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:00:45 -0800:
>Hi,
>[snip]
>
>>In an earlier thread, "Photons and gravity, a thought experiment", I
>>suggested rationale for assuming that photons have mass corresponding to
>>their energy.  It is now of interest to estimate the average energy photons
>>must carry to account for dark matter.
>[snip]
>What is the energy of the average photon in the microwave background?


The microwave background peak and mean are in the vicintity of nu = 200
GHz, or 2x10^11 Hz.  Using Plank's E = h nu we obtain E = 1.33X10^-22 J =
8.3X10^-4 EV.  This is about 1/1000 the amount required to explain dark
matter via photon mass.  However, the average photon energy should be much
higher, true?  Significant portions of cosmic energy are even in xray and
cosmic ray energy range, especially in the vicinity of observable masses.
It is only the action of observable masses that indicates the presence of
dark matter.   A significant portion of that dark mass may be in the form
of black holes, thus reducing the burden of the photon in the explanation
of dark matter.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Nov 21 14:58:50 2002
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> 
> I have a paper on this.  Photons have gravitational "mass" due to the effective force they experience while propagating throught Hubble's constant.
> 
> http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/images/sourceof.txt 
> 
> Frank Z 
> 
> 

Horace,

I understand that Frank hypothesizes that a gravitational force is produced by a photon only at the moment it scattered, or Poynting vector change. (*) As this gravitational force is directional, one can not produce arbitrary large gravitational force by increasing number of scattering per seconds. This is because increasing the scattering reduce the distance between scattering and as
gravitational forces produced by opposite directions cancel each other at distance, possibly making gravitational force not dependent to number of scattering. For example effect of gravitational force produced by a photon circulating in a fiber optic loop (radius r) at distance (d, d>>r) should not increase. 

So when photon scattering is considered as statistical process, we may obtain a
constant which link energy of available photons and the average gravitational field produced. This will be true for natural scattering process. But if one disturb this statistical distribution of scattering (i.e. limiting to one dimension or in a plane, or produce coherent scatterings, may obtain different form of gravity and strengths.

(*) It may even be generalized as gravity is proportional to change of energy, IMO.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Photons and dark matter
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At 6:57 AM 11/22/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:00:45 -0800:
>Hi,
>[snip]
>
>>In an earlier thread, "Photons and gravity, a thought experiment", I
>>suggested rationale for assuming that photons have mass corresponding to
>>their energy.  It is now of interest to estimate the average energy photons
>>must carry to account for dark matter.
>[snip]
>What is the energy of the average photon in the microwave background?


The microwave background peak and mean are in the vicintity of nu = 200
GHz, or 2x10^11 Hz.  Using Plank's E = h nu we obtain E = 1.33X10^-22 J =
8.3X10^-4 EV.  This is about 1/1000 the amount required to explain dark
matter via photon mass.  However, the average photon energy should be much
higher, true?  Significant portions of cosmic energy are even in xray and
cosmic ray energy range, especially in the vicinity of observable masses.
It is only the action of observable masses that indicates the presence of
dark matter.   A significant portion of that dark mass may be in the form
of black holes, thus reducing the burden of the photon in the explanation
of dark matter.

An argument that the average photon energy is large, on the order of an eV,
is that at the time of the big bang the universe was eqaully populated with
mater and anti-matter.  Through a break in symmetry, the anti-matter was
destroyed, converting it to energy.  This implies that a lower bound on the
energy of a photon must be around .2 eV in order for it to correspond to
the matter destroyed.  If we further assume that some portion of the normal
matter was converted to (photon) energy, say about half, we then see that
the average energy of the photon must be in the vicinity of .6 eV.  In
other words, if the mass of the universe is M, and addtional mass M of
matter was annihilated, then the universe initially consisted of mass 4 M,
of which 3 M is now in the form of photons.  From this perspective not much
of the universe need be in black holes for the dark matter to be explained.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Photons and dark matter
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In a message dated 11/21/02 5:59:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:


> (*) It may even be generalized as gravity is proportional to change of 
> energy, IMO.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> hamdi ucar
> 

You have got it exactly correct.  From gen rel gravity is

gravity = G/ccr (dp/dt)

dp/dt may be electromagnetic or non electromagnetic.  It's E/c.
I applied this relationship across a braod spectrum of phenomena.

Frank Z




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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 11/21/02 5:59:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">(*) It may even be generalized as gravity is proportional to change of energy, IMO.<BR>
<BR>
Regards,<BR>
<BR>
hamdi ucar<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
You have got it exactly correct.&nbsp; From gen rel gravity is<BR>
<BR>
gravity = G/ccr (dp/dt)<BR>
<BR>
dp/dt may be electromagnetic or non electromagnetic.&nbsp; It's E/c.<BR>
I applied this relationship across a braod spectrum of phenomena.<BR>
<BR>
Frank Z<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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Subject: Re: Photons and dark matter
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In a message dated 11/21/02 5:59:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:


> scattered, or Poynting vector change. (*) As this gravitational force is 
> directional, one can not produce arbitrary large gravitational force by 
> increasing number of scattering per seconds. This is because increasing the 
> scattering reduce the distance between scattering and as
> gravitational forces produced by opposite directions cancel each other at 
> distance, possibly making gravitational force not dependent to number of 
> scattering. For example effect of gravitational force produced by a photon 
> circulating in a fiber optic loop (radius r) at distance (d, d>>r) should 
> not increase. 
> 
Exactly  field = G/ccr (dp/dt)

gravity varies as 1/rr

The superposition of a +1/r from one scattering event and a -1/r from another 
scattering event generates the gravitational field of matter.


 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter7.html">Chapter 7</A> shows the math of this scattering process

Chapter six develops the relationship G/ccr (dp/dt) 


Frank Z

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 11/21/02 5:59:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">scattered, or Poynting vector change. (*) As this gravitational force is directional, one can not produce arbitrary large gravitational force by increasing number of scattering per seconds. This is because increasing the scattering reduce the distance between scattering and as<BR>
gravitational forces produced by opposite directions cancel each other at distance, possibly making gravitational force not dependent to number of scattering. For example effect of gravitational force produced by a photon circulating in a fiber optic loop (radius r) at distance (d, d&gt;&gt;r) should not increase. <BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
Exactly&nbsp; field = G/ccr (dp/dt)<BR>
<BR>
gravity varies as 1/rr<BR>
<BR>
The superposition of a +1/r from one scattering event and a -1/r from another scattering event generates the gravitational field of matter.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter7.html">Chapter 7</A> shows the math of this scattering process<BR>
<BR>
Chapter six develops the relationship G/ccr (dp/dt) <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Frank Z</FONT></HTML>

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Correction: 

hamdi ucar wrote:

> For example effect of gravitational force produced by a photon circulating in
> a fiber optic loop (radius r) at distance (d, d>>r) should not increase.

Should be:

For example effect of gravitational force produced by a photon circulating in
a fiber optic loop (radius r) at distance (d, d>>r) should not increase by decreasing the loop radius. (small radius cause photon change direction faster)

Regards,

hamdix

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In a message dated 11/21/02 8:08:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:


> 
> For example effect of gravitational force produced by a photon circulating 
> in
> a fiber optic loop (radius r) at distance (d, d>>r) should not increase by 
> decreasing the loop radius. (small radius cause photon change direction 
> faster)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 

Yes in the near field.  Assuming one field is of a +1/r component and the 
other a -1/r component the far superimposed 1/rr field is independent on the 
loop size.  Check my math.


 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter7.html">Chapter 7</A> 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 11/21/02 8:08:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
For example effect of gravitational force produced by a photon circulating in<BR>
a fiber optic loop (radius r) at distance (d, d&gt;&gt;r) should not increase by decreasing the loop radius. (small radius cause photon change direction faster)<BR>
<BR>
Regards,<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Yes in the near field.&nbsp; Assuming one field is of a +1/r component and the other a -1/r component the far superimposed 1/rr field is independent on the loop size.&nbsp; Check my math.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter7.html">Chapter 7</A> <BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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>In a message dated 11/21/02 8:08:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:



> > For example effect of gravitational force produced by a photon circulating
> > in a fiber optic loop (radius r) at distance (d, d>>r) should not increase
> > by decreasing the loop radius. (small radius cause photon change direction
> > faster)




> Yes in the near field.  Assuming one field is of a +1/r component and the
> other a -1/r component the far superimposed 1/rr field is independent on
> the loop size.  Check my math.

Oh, I think the opposite. As photon would change direction faster in smaller loop I assumed dp/dt is proportional to 1/r:

g would be proportional to 

(1/r)( 1/a+r - 1/a+r ) = 2/(a^2-r^2)

only at far field r^2 is too small and can be ignored and g would be proportional to 2/a^2 , independent of radius.


hamdi ucar

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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, hamdix@verisoft.com.tr
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Photons and dark matter
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At 7:52 PM 11/21/2, FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 11/21/02 5:59:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:
>
>
>> (*) It may even be generalized as gravity is proportional to change of
>> energy, IMO.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> hamdi ucar
>>
>
>You have got it exactly correct.  From gen rel gravity is
>
>gravity = G/ccr (dp/dt)
>
>dp/dt may be electromagnetic or non electromagnetic.  It's E/c.


For photons p = E/c, thus dp/dt = dE/dt, or else is meaningless, depending
on your point of view.


>I applied this relationship across a braod spectrum of phenomena.
>
>Frank Z


You are of course entitled to your own view of the universe.  However, this
is contrary to the view I am suggesting/exploring.  What I have suggested
is that change in gravity (mass) is at all times proportional to change in
energy, that mass and energy remain in constant proportion.  This is
because any theory in which photons do not carry mass in proportion to
energy at all times can be shown to invalidate momentum and energy
conservation laws.  Further, if photons are capable of exchanging
gravitons, then there is possibly a basis for developing a quantum theory
of gravity which is independent of GR space warping concepts.

There is an interesting problem with this idea.  Where have the energetic
photons from the great annihilation of anti-matter gone?  They can't be
hanging around locally, because they are not detectable. They can not
account for dark matter unless it is almost all, including the photons,
locked up in black holes.  The mass of energetic photons moving away from
us at the fringe of the universe can not account for locally observed
gravtational anomalies, because the gravitational forces of such evenly
distibuted photons would cancel here locally.  Space may have a high
density of black holes.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Photons and dark matter
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In a message dated 11/22/02 3:37:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
hheffner mtaonline.net writes:


> There is an interesting problem with this idea.  Where have the energetic
> photons from the great annihilation of anti-matter gone?  They can't be
> hanging around locally, because they are not detectable. They can not
> account for dark matter unless it is almost all, including the photons,
> locked up in black holes.  The mass of energetic photons moving away from
> us at the fringe of the universe can not account for locally observed
> gravtational anomalies, because the gravitational forces of such evenly
> distibuted photons would cancel here locally.  Space may have a high
> density of black holes.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          

I not there at all.  I don't want to go there!  What I am doing is modeling 
the wave properties of matter at low energy.  I want to stay away from high 
energy.  My model has a limited domain and is valid only with the harmonic 
wave properties of the matter.  

Frank

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 11/22/02 3:37:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, hheffner mtaonline.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">There is an interesting problem with this idea.&nbsp; Where have the energetic<BR>
photons from the great annihilation of anti-matter gone?&nbsp; They can't be<BR>
hanging around locally, because they are not detectable. They can not<BR>
account for dark matter unless it is almost all, including the photons,<BR>
locked up in black holes.&nbsp; The mass of energetic photons moving away from<BR>
us at the fringe of the universe can not account for locally observed<BR>
gravtational anomalies, because the gravitational forces of such evenly<BR>
distibuted photons would cancel here locally.&nbsp; Space may have a high<BR>
density of black holes.<BR>
<BR>
Regards,<BR>
<BR>
Horace Heffner&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I not there at all.&nbsp; I don't want to go there!&nbsp; What I am doing is modeling the wave properties of matter at low energy.&nbsp; I want to stay away from high energy.&nbsp; My model has a limited domain and is valid only with the harmonic wave properties of the matter.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Frank</FONT></HTML>

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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:01:31 EST
Subject: Re: Photons and dark matter
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In a message dated 11/22/02 3:37:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
hheffner mtaonline.net writes:


> 
> For photons p = E/c, thus dp/dt = dE/dt, or else is meaningless, depending
> on your point of view.
> 

Upon reflection dp/dt = 2E/c

Frank

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 11/22/02 3:37:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, hheffner mtaonline.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
For photons p = E/c, thus dp/dt = dE/dt, or else is meaningless, depending<BR>
on your point of view.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Upon reflection dp/dt = 2E/c<BR>
<BR>
Frank</FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 22 08:04:14 2002
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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:02:29 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Steve Jones reports cold fusion results . . . somewhere
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See brief abstracts:

http://www.aps.org/meet/4CF02/baps/abs/S80.html#SCB.001

Details are not available at this site, and the results (positive or 
negative) are not described!

- Jed


[NOTE: For some reason Eskimo.com is rejecting messages. I have to send 
most Vortex postings twice, and this one three times. Weird!] 


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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:22:59 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Steve Jones reports cold fusion results . . . somewhere
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> Details are not available at this site, and the results (positive or 
> negative) are not described!
> 
> - Jed

This looks "positive," assuming evidence of a nuclear reaction is what one is desirous of (value judgment) or stated differently, how could evidence of neutron emissions from cold fusion be anything less than positive - particularly as neutrons are so seldom seen...well,  I guess Park and Taubes would consider it negative, having built reputations on the expectation of contrary results...

"Evidence of Neutron Emissions from Fusion at Low Temperatures"
Frank Keeney (Particle Physics Research Co.), Steven Jones, Mark Scott (Brigham Young University) 

We report experimental results from the fusion reaction: d + d --> 3He (0.82 MeV) + n (2.45 MeV). We observed evidence of neutrons emanating from partially-deuterided titanium and copper foils using a highly-sensitive segmented detector. Deuteriding was achieved by both gas-loading and by acid loading. Our data show compelling evidence for low-level nuclear d-d fusion in deuterided metals under non-equilibrium conditions. One experiment showed a background-subtracted yield of 57 ± 13 counts/hour. An important advance was repeatability at the 40... 

Also by S.Jones, this looks positive 

"Evidence for Coincident Fusion Products Using Silicon Surface-barrier Detectors"

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 22 09:57:53 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Steve Jones reports cold fusion results . . . somewhere
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Jones Beene wrote:

>This looks "positive," assuming evidence of a nuclear reaction is what one 
>is desirous of (value judgment) . . .

You are right, on second reading, it does sound positive. I got the 
impression at first that they were saying this a conventional, expected low 
level reaction -- perhaps something like the neutrons you get by whacking 
metal with a deuteron beam.

The first abstract cuts off just where things are getting interesting, the 
way Russell Baker says detective story porno magazines did in the 1930s: 
"An important advance was repeatability at the 40..." Pow! The luscious 
tomato in detective's arms is shot dead, just as she is about to Reveal All.

- Jed


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Subject: Re: Steve Jones reports cold fusion results . . . somewhere
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Check out this link:

http://128.187.202.55/jones/rel491/handstext%20and%20figures.htm

from Steve Jones website:

http://physics1.byu.edu/atomic/jones_cv.htm

Does this damage his credibility? Can one be a good scientist and be a
devout Christian, as well? Doesn't the scientific method require skepticism
in the absense of evidence?

Craig (Houston)


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In a message dated 11/22/02 2:59:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
cchaynie ix.netcom.com writes:


> 
> Does this damage his credibility? Can one be a good scientist and be a
> devout Christian, as well? Doesn't the scientific method require skepticism
> in the absense of evidence?
> 
> Craig (Houston)
> 

You tell this to someone on there death bed that has lost all hope in this 
life.
Sometimes it is better to take something with a grane of salt that to believe 
a dark impersonal and always fatal life.

Frank Z

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 11/22/02 2:59:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, cchaynie ix.netcom.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
Does this damage his credibility? Can one be a good scientist and be a<BR>
devout Christian, as well? Doesn't the scientific method require skepticism<BR>
in the absense of evidence?<BR>
<BR>
Craig (Houston)<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
You tell this to someone on there death bed that has lost all hope in this life.<BR>
Sometimes it is better to take something with a grane of salt that to believe a dark impersonal and always fatal life.<BR>
<BR>
Frank Z</FONT></HTML>

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Check out this link:

http://128.187.202.55/jones/rel491/handstext%20and%20figures.htm

from Steve Jones website:

http://physics1.byu.edu/atomic/jones_cv.htm

Does this damage his credibility? Can one be a good scientist and be a
devout Christian, as well? Doesn't the scientific method require skepticism
in the absense of evidence?

Craig (Houston)



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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: WHAT'S NEW    Friday, 22 Nov 02
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:47:49 -0500
From: "What's New" <opa aps.org>
Reply-To: opa aps.org
To: "What's New" <whatsnew lists.apsmsgs.org>

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 22 Nov 02   Washington, DC

1. SUV MILEAGE: THE ADMINISTRATION WON'T RAISE THE BAR TOO FAR.  
A year ago, the House crushed a move to raise the CAFE standard
for SUVs from the present 20.7 mpg to 35 mpg(WN 3 Aug 01).  Now
the Bush administration is reviewing a proposal to raise it by a
meager 0.5 mpg each year for just three years, starting with the
2005 model year.  Take that Mr. Saudi oil baron!  How did they
arrive at the 22.2 mpg figure?  Well, they asked the automakers
what was possible.  But the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers
says even a 1.5 mpg increase would be "a real challenge."  Gosh,
maybe we're asking too much.  Instead of tinkering with the SUVs,
why don't we just shorten the mile?  Lopping a mere 127 feet off
the mile each year for three years would meet the same standard. 
The rest of the world won't care.  They went metric years ago.  

2. CELL PHONES: PROTECTING YOUR SECOND MOST IMPORTANT ORGAN. 
There is no credible evidence that cell phone radiation is linked
to cancer (WN 4 Oct 02) and no reason to think it could be, but
you can't be too careful.  Last month we told you about a new
line of Dockers with material that blocks cell-phone radiation if
you carry the phone in your pocket(WN 13 Sep 02).  Now, a company
in Norway is selling caps for $53 that have a layer of woven
silver to shield your brain when you hold the phone up to your
head.  It also blocks solar UV, but so does a paper hat.

3. MISCONDUCT IN PHYSICS: APS COUNCIL REVISITS ETHICS AND VALUES.
In what may be remembered as the summer of lost faith, physicists
woke up to find two separate cases of blatant fabrication in
physics research.  And it wasn't just two loners: Ninov and
Schoen.  They had as many as 15 coauthors on some of the papers
(WN 19 Jun 02).  This was not supposed to happen in physics.  In
some soft science maybe, but not in physics. At its meeting two
weeks ago, the APS Council revised the "APS Guidelines for
Professional Conduct" to spell out coauthor responsibility
www.aps.org/statements/02.2.html  and added a "Statement on
improving education for professional ethics, standards and
practices" www.aps.org/statements/02.4.html 

4. GLOBAL TERRORISM WARNING: MAYBE YOU DIDN'T NOTICE.  The first
warnings issued by the administration after 9/11 were front page
headline stuff. This week, the New York Times devoted 2 column
inches at the bottom of page A17 to the latest helpful warning.
It was truly a classic: "Terrorist actions may include, but are
not limited to, suicide operations or kidnappings."

5. MASS MEDIA FELLOWSHIPS: APPLICATIONS INVITED FOR SUMMER 2003.
Tired of the media misreporting science?  Do something about it.
APS supports a ten-week summer fellowship to allow physics
students to work full time as reporters, researchers or
production assistants in a mass media organization.  Priority
will be given to graduate students in physics or closely related
fields.  The deadline is 15 January 2003.  Details at
www.aps.org/public_affairs/massmedia/index.shtml .

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY.  
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.
---
Archives of What's New can be found at http://www.aps.org/WN.
You are currently subscribed to whatsnew as: <aki ix.netcom.com>
To unsubscribe, send a blank e-mail to:
<leave-whatsnew-27231J lists.apsmsgs.org>
To subscribe, send a blank e-mail to: <join-whatsnew lists.apsmsgs.org>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 22 19:35:55 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Surf the patent databases...
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:49:59 -0500
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Hi All.

I'm pleased to announce that a freeware version
of IP-Discover is now available for student and
private use. That's probably most of you vorts.
So come to the site, dig in, and enjoy surfing
the public patent databases. It's an essential
part of invention.

		www.ipdiscover.com

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 22 21:15:52 2002
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Dear Horace,

Consider the relation between electric charge and magnetic field and project this relation to energy and to the gravitational field. 

I mean a hypothesis where the gravitational field produced when an energy is accelerated. This should be true for Frank's hypothesis to explain the gravity.

But the observed gravity is not similar to magnetic field. But I am trying to model the observed gravity or macroscopic gravity as a statistical commutation of microscopic gravity produced by large number accelerated energy components. This could be similar to gas pressure (macroscopic gravity)
produced individual random movements (momenta) of gas molecules (microscopic gravity).

And basic question need to answered for this hypothesis is:
If gravity is produced by acceleration of energy, why it is not possible to obtain arbitrary amount of gravity by increasing or decreasing acceleration of
energy and gravity is precisely proportional to amount of energy?

Answer is energy is always moving with speed of light whether it is carried by photons or condensed in matter form. So only way to vary acceleration is vary the number of direction change in unit of time of energy components.

But when direction changes are increasing, distance between these changes are decreased and the the total effect on producing gravity remain unchanged. This is exactly I am exemplified with fiber optic loop. This invariance is provided by Frank's formula.

Applying this formula to configuration where a photon is ping-ponging between two mirrors separated by 2r, at a point on the axis of the photon at distance d to the middle point of these mirrors instantaneous gravitational force(w) is calculated by each bounces on mirrors is

w1 = +u/(d-r) 
w2 = -u/(d+r)

where u is gravitational factor of bouncing photon having a specific energy


w = g1-g2 = 2ur/(d^2 - r^2)

for d>>r

w= 2ur/d^2

as number of bounce of photons per second is determined by
n= c/2r where c is speed of light

quasi static gravitational force experienced would be

g = n.w = (c/2r)(2ur/d^2) = 2uc/d^2

As one see, the parameter r is removed from the equation.

Replacing u with k.e where e is energy of the photon and k is a constant

g=kce/d^2

The similarity between Newton formula and the above can be seen.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 23 01:16:14 2002
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Hi,

I did some corrections and additions to my posting. I think this one is better.

Note that the world "commutation" found in third paragraph of previous posting should read as "accumulation". Victimized by spell checker.:)

Regards,

hamdi ucar

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Horace,

Consider the relation between electric charge and magnetic field and project this relation to energy and to the gravitational field. 

I mean a hypothesis where the gravitational field produced when an energy is accelerated. This should be true for Frank's hypothesis to explain the gravity.

But the observed gravity not resemble to magnetic field in this analogy. Observed gravity is static and isotropic but hypotetized gravity produced by acceleration of energy is dynamic and directional. But considering large number of microscopic accelerated energy components are producing gravitational force or fields on all directions constantly, result would be similar to what we observe. I name it as macroscopic gravity. This could be similar to gas pressure (macroscopic gravity) produced individual random movements (momenta) of gas molecules (microscopic gravity).

And basic question need be answered for this hypothesis is: If gravity is produced by acceleration of energy, why it is not possible to obtain arbitrary amount of gravity by increasing or decreasing acceleration of energy and why gravity is precisely proportional to amount of energy?

Answer is energy is always moving with speed of light whether it is carried by photons or condensed in matter form. So, only way to vary acceleration is vary the number of direction change in unit of time of energy components.

But when direction changes are increasing in time, distance between these changes are decreased and the the total effect on producing gravity remain unchanged. This is exactly I exemplified with fiber optic loop. This invariance is provided by Frank's formula.

Applying this formula to configuration where a photon is ping-ponging between two mirrors separated by 2r, at a point on the axis of the photon at distance d to the middle point of these mirrors instantaneous gravitational force(w) is calculated by each bounces on mirrors is

w1 = +u/(d-r) 
w2 = -u/(d+r)

where u is gravitational factor of bouncing photon having a specific energy


w = g1-g2 = 2ur/(d^2 - r^2)

for d>>r

w= 2ur/d^2

as number of bounce of photons per second is determined by
n= c/2r where c is speed of light

quasi static gravitational force experienced would be

g = n.w = (c/2r)(2ur/d^2) = 2uc/d^2

As one see, the parameter r is removed from the equation.

Replacing u with k.e where e is energy of the photon and k is a constant

g=kce/d^2

The similarity between Newton formula and the above can be seen.

So, how this hypothesis contribute to your consideration of gravity produced by photons in universe:

1) Photons are not often reflected by astronomical objects but they are mostly created ands absorbed. These event produce gravity but energy contained on freely moving photons should not. To make a proper analysis, a good mathematical formulation is needed.


Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 23 04:18:29 2002
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Photons and dark matter - a short note - correction
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I am working away from home often now, so my response time may be long and
my responses not well considered.  Apologies in advance for my coming
mistakes!


At 11:15 AM 11/23/2, hamdi ucar wrote:

>Consider the relation between electric charge and magnetic field and
>project this relation to energy and to the gravitational field.
>
>I mean a hypothesis where the gravitational field produced when an energy
>is accelerated. This should be true for Frank's hypothesis to explain the
>gravity.


I think this hypothesis probably can only have consistant meaning
mathematicallly or physically if energy is treated as a vector.


>
>But the observed gravity not resemble to magnetic field in this analogy.
>Observed gravity is static and isotropic but hypotetized gravity produced
>by acceleration of energy is dynamic and directional. But considering
>large number of microscopic accelerated energy components are producing
>gravitational force or fields on all directions constantly, result would
>be similar to what we observe. I name it as macroscopic gravity. This
>could be similar to gas pressure (macroscopic gravity) produced individual
>random movements (momenta) of gas molecules (microscopic gravity).


The accelerating (path changing) of photons correlates exactly to
gravitational force ... or to the warping of space by the gravitational
source as sepcified in GR.  Further the exchange of momentum of photons
with mass is not in doubt, though this is momentum exchange results in a
repulsive force, not an attracting force.  It stikes me that what you are
actually quantifying or converting macro form is actually inertia.

It is not the acceleration of energy that fails in this (Frank's) context,
but rather the counter-force on the accelerating mass (the mass that bends
the photon path) that fails to be accounted for.  That is the basis of my
hypothesis: suppose there IS a counter force on the mass that redirects
(deflects) the photon.  I demonstrate by thought experiment that
conservation of momentum and energy are violated if such counter-force does
not exist.  Given that the counter-force hypothesis IS true, then there is
no difference in results between my hypothesis and the alternative
hypothesis that photons carry gravity, i.e. that photons exchange
gravitons.  If something in all ways acts exactly like a rose why not call
it a rose, or assume it might actually be a rose.  Two systems that are
isomorphic are really the same system with differing nomenclature.


>
>And basic question need be answered for this hypothesis is: If gravity is
>produced by acceleration of energy, why it is not possible to obtain
>arbitrary amount of gravity by increasing or decreasing acceleration of
>energy and why gravity is precisely proportional to amount of energy?


It appears to me that the reason for this is that the acceleration as
discussed is a manifestation of gravity, not the production of gravity.
The production of gravity only occurs by a theory is there is some
underpinning law that makes it happen.  This is the basis of the hypotheis
I propose, that such a counter-force exists.  However, I do not hypothesize
that this counter-force exists only when there is phton acceleration.
Suppose there are two masses m1 and m2 seperated by a photon beam:


                m1


...................................photon beam...............>


                m2

The photon beam need not be bent in order for the gravitational attraction
of m1 and m2 to be increased.  Further, suppose the photon beam is directed
into a black hole B:


                m1


..photon beam..>B


                m2


As the photons are absorbed by the black hole its mass increases.  The
force on m1 and m2 increases.  I ssuggest that this is true even if and/or
while the photons remain photons while in the black hole.



>
>Answer is energy is always moving with speed of light whether it is
>carried by photons or condensed in matter form. So, only way to vary
>acceleration is vary the number of direction change in unit of time of
>energy components.


It seems that energy must be a vector for the above statement to have
meaning.  Further, it appears you are focusing here on inirtial mass and
not gravitational mass.  Without the counter-force hypothesis there is no
gravity issued.


>
>But when direction changes are increasing in time, distance between these
>changes are decreased and the the total effect on producing gravity remain
>unchanged. This is exactly I exemplified with fiber optic loop. This
>invariance is provided by Frank's formula.


If the direction changes are increasing or decreasing in time (in the
observer's frame) then the inirtial mass is changing, not gravity.


>
>Applying this formula to configuration where a photon is ping-ponging
>between two mirrors separated by 2r, at a point on the axis of the photon
>at distance d to the middle point of these mirrors instantaneous
>gravitational force(w) is calculated by each bounces on mirrors is
>
>w1 = +u/(d-r)
>w2 = -u/(d+r)
>
>where u is gravitational factor of bouncing photon having a specific energy



I suggest that you are calculating an inirtial force here, not gravitational.



>
>
>w = g1-g2 = 2ur/(d^2 - r^2)
>
>for d>>r
>
>w= 2ur/d^2
>
>as number of bounce of photons per second is determined by
>n= c/2r where c is speed of light
>
>quasi static gravitational force experienced would be
>
>g = n.w = (c/2r)(2ur/d^2) = 2uc/d^2
>
>As one see, the parameter r is removed from the equation.
>
>Replacing u with k.e where e is energy of the photon and k is a constant
>
>g=kce/d^2
>
>The similarity between Newton formula and the above can be seen.
>
>So, how this hypothesis contribute to your consideration of gravity
>produced by photons in universe:
>
>1) Photons are not often reflected by astronomical objects but they are
>mostly created ands absorbed. These event produce gravity but energy
>contained on freely moving photons should not. To make a proper analysis,
>a good mathematical formulation is needed.


This hypothesis does not imply the necessary counter-force on the
gravitational field producing mass.  It seems to provide a model for
inirtia.  It is consistent with my consideration in that photons are acted
upon by gravity and that phtons carry momentum, but inconsistant in that
there is no provision for the necessary counter-force on the gravitational
body.  A further difference is that in my hypothesis light attracts light,
and light in a black hole does not lose its mass.  The mass/energy ratio in
the universe remains constant.

Given that the universe at the time of the big bang had M1 + M2 mass in
anti-matter, and M1 + M2 mass in matter, and mass R in radiation mass, and
assuming it now has mass M1 in ordinary matter and approximately 0 mass in
anti-matter, the radiative mass of the universe must now be M1 + 2 M2 + R.
Much of that photon mass should be in a spherical enevlope heading away
from the locus of the big bang.   However, a lot of it may be trapped in
lots of black holes and still in our vicinity.  If so, then it may account
for a large portion of dark matter?  The question then is why we cannot see
most of these black holes.  Perhaps it is because we can only see
relatively new ones, or relatively large ones.  The old ones have gobbled
up everything in their vicinity and thus are realtively hidden.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 23 06:27:34 2002
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Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 06:22:19 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Photons and dark matter
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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I'm wondering if some of these contradictions that exist in tying photons to energy, gravitation, inertia, etc. can't be resolved (or at least rationalized) by employing extra-dimensionality, i.e. tachyons...

I can practically see the collective grimacing over cyberspace whenever tachyons are mentioned. It's a leap of faith, sure, but if one can suspend disbelief long enough to actually study the "distilled" info that is finally showing up on the web, there are many surprising benefits to that understanding, but please don't ask me to try to verbalize them, instead here are two good resources....

First the more difficult. Over the years there has been an ongoing thread (occasional flame war) on Sci.Physics.Research that recently has taken on the name "Length of wavetrain of a single photon" - you can jump in at:
http://www.lns.cornell.edu/spr/1999-02/threads.html#0014372

Every once in a while on reading these heated opinions, a glimpse of understanding shines through...it often takes the form of a photon being a two component entitiy having both a 3D (local) and a 4D (non-local) component, or stated otherwise, spending half its time in any one three dimensional reference plane (what we see) and the other half as connected back to its origin by means a wavetrain that must by definition be FTL, i.e tachyonic.

Once the photon interacts in any local reference plane, then immediately the tachyonic wavetrain collapses, carrying with it all its formerly "imaginary" mass energy equivalent into the local frame of reference. When you were in university, if you wondered when you would really ever need to use all that crap about imaginary numbers, well here's the place !

A good introduction to tachyon mathematics and Feinberg's  original 35 year old theory can be found in John G. Cramer's Alternate View Column  # AV-61. Sorry don't have the URL handy.

Regards,

Jones Beene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 23 10:35:48 2002
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Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 13:29:38 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Photons and dark matter - a short note - correction
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In a message dated 11/23/2002 7:31:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, hheffner mtaonline.net writes:

> It is not the acceleration of energy that fails in this (Frank's) context,
> but rather the counter-force on the accelerating mass (the mass that bends
> the photon path) that fails to be accounted for.  That is the basis of my
> hypothesis: suppose there IS a counter force on the mass that redirects
> (deflects) the photon.  I demonstrate by thought experiment that
> conservation of momentum and energy are violated if such counter-force does
> not exist.  Given that the counter-force hypothesis IS true, then there is
> no difference in results between my hypothesis and the alternative
> hypothesis that photons carry gravity, i.e. that photons exchange
> gravitons.  If something in all ways acts exactly like a rose why not call
> it a rose, or assume it might actually be a rose.  Two systems that are
> isomorphic are really the same system with differing 
> nomenclature.

Exacltly, this is where I started my reasoning.  I hold that the the conservation of momentum always applies.  In gravitational light bending gravity changes the momentum of light.  There must be a reaction to this change in momentum.  This reaction is produced when bending light generates a gravitational field.  This induced field reaches back and changes the momentum of the the system. From general realitivity the required induced field is is G/ccr(dp/dt) 

frank Z

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 23 10:42:41 2002
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Cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Photons and dark matter - a short note
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In a message dated 11/23/2002 12:11:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:

> 
> Answer is energy is always moving with speed of light whether it is carried by photons or condensed in matter form. So only way to vary acceleration is vary the number of direction 
> change in unit of time of energy components.

This is correct according to my thinking but wrong according to conventional wisdom.  Conventional wisdom holds that the matter wave function moves at velocity v.  It is locatlized by the Fourier addition of component waves sum (e<exp>iwt).  I say the matter wave travels at velocity c.  It is localized by reflections.  These reflections take place when the intensity of the wave exceeds the elastic limit of space.  I introduce a new idea.  That space has a limit to elasticity.  That's where my consstants of the motion theory sprang from.  There is no counter force.  The counter force is produced by the induced gravitational field.

Frank

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From: "David Rosignoli" <drdaveor enter.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Interesting PBS show about B. Franklin
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 19:16:34 -0500
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Jed,

Thanks for the tip. The creators of this program had a presentation at the
Society for Amateur Scientists conference here in Philadelphia.(See
www.sas.org) I forgot all about this show.
But depending on your area, it will probably be re-broadcast. Check out
http://www.pbs.org/benfranklin/about_localbroadcast.html

-David Rosignoli

----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 2:04 PM
Subject: Interesting PBS show about B. Franklin


> There was an interesting Public Television show about Benjamin Franklin
> last night, so if this is the first you have heard, you missed it. It
> described some of his scientific achievements, and showed some experiments
> in action. It begins by showing an experiment in which he attempted to
> electrocute a turkey, but he accidently knocked himself cold instead. The
> description of the 18th century "gentleman scientists" reminded me of CF
> researchers. Chris Tinsley called himself a "gentleman scientist" except,
> he noted, they were independently wealthy and he was flat broke.
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 23 18:16:40 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Strange result
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:14:57 +1100
Organization: Improving
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Hi,

I'm currently doing an electrolysis experiment with a solution containing
what I was sold as KNO3. I'm using an asymmetric AC current. I'm getting
a considerable amount of gas development at the electrode that is primarily 
positive, and *no gas at all* at the other electrode. There is also a strong smell of bleach. The electrodes are steel plate. I turned off the power, and turned it on again after intervals of varying length, varying from seconds to an hour or so. I don't let it run for more than a few minutes at a time, due to the stench.
Placing the electrolysis cell directly across the DC power supply had the same result. IOW it doesn't appear to be anything to do with the AC current.
There is a stain spreading out through the electrolyte, from cathode to anode. 
Any suggestions as to what is happening to my hydrogen? If it's being absorbed into the steel, how much can steel absorb (/ unit volume)?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 23 20:52:11 2002
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au>
Subject: Re: Strange result
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 23:55:40 -0500
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On Saturday 23 November 2002 21:14, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm currently doing an electrolysis experiment with a solution containing
> what I was sold as KNO3. I'm using an asymmetric AC current. I'm getting
> a considerable amount of gas development at the electrode that is primarily 
> positive, and *no gas at all* at the other electrode. There is also a strong 
smell of bleach. The electrodes are steel plate. I turned off the power, and 
turned it on again after intervals of varying length, varying from seconds to 
an hour or so. I don't let it run for more than a few minutes at a time, due 
to the stench.
> Placing the electrolysis cell directly across the DC power supply had the 
same result. IOW it doesn't appear to be anything to do with the AC current.
> There is a stain spreading out through the electrolyte, from cathode to 
anode. 
> Any suggestions as to what is happening to my hydrogen? If it's being 
absorbed into the steel, how much can steel absorb (/ unit volume)?
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 
> Competition provides the motivation,
> Cooperation provides the means.
> 
> 
> 
I'd check who gave you KCl....potassium chloride or similar halide salt 
instead of the nitrate.  The bleach smell may be chlorine gas forming
at the positive electrode as the negative Cl- ions migrate to that electrode
to recieve their long lost electron on the way to the surface where they
can go up your nose and dewater it, forming H20:HCl and giving it
a nasty burn.   Your lungs too if you breathe too much of it.
   Thats my first guess.  All the others are much worse.  Sorry.  Might want
to catch that chap.
 Yakov


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 23 23:21:56 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Strange result
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:19:31 +1100
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In reply to  Yakov Smirnoff's message of Sat, 23 Nov 2002 23:55:40 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>I'd check who gave you KCl....potassium chloride or similar halide salt 
>instead of the nitrate.  The bleach smell may be chlorine gas forming
[snip]
Yes, I had already considered that myself. That's why I mentioned that it was sold to me as KNO3, rather than saying that it was KNO3.

However, that still doesn't explain why there was no hydrogen gas.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 24 04:39:13 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Photons and dark matter
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:58:15 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:29:32 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]
>An argument that the average photon energy is large, on the order of an eV,
>is that at the time of the big bang the universe was eqaully populated with
>mater and anti-matter.  Through a break in symmetry, the anti-matter was
>destroyed, converting it to energy.  
>This implies that a lower bound on the
>energy of a photon must be around .2 eV in order for it to correspond to
>the matter destroyed.  

How do you know how much matter-antimatter was destroyed, to allow you calculate the 0.2 eV?

>If we further assume that some portion of the normal
>matter was converted to (photon) energy, say about half, 

It could have been any amount, from one part per billion, to 99.999999%.
This depends utterly on the degree to which the symmetry was broken,
which AFAIK is complete guess work.

>we then see that
>the average energy of the photon must be in the vicinity of .6 eV.  In
>other words, if the mass of the universe is M, and addtional mass M of
>matter was annihilated, then the universe initially consisted of mass 4 M,
>of which 3 M is now in the form of photons.  From this perspective not much
>of the universe need be in black holes for the dark matter to be explained.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 24 05:01:46 2002
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From: "Nicholas Reiter" <nreiter woh.rr.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Strange result
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Robin,

A quick test to check for a mis-labelled chemical...  take a little of your
"KNO3", put it in a test tube or beaker, and add a little water, just enough
to let it start to dissolve.  Feel the beaker.  If it becomes very cold,
then you probably have KCl.  KCl has a negative heat of solution. (or is it
"positive" - oh well, whatever - it gets cold when it dissolves)

NR

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 9:14 PM
Subject: Strange result


> Hi,
>
> I'm currently doing an electrolysis experiment with a solution containing
> what I was sold as KNO3. I'm using an asymmetric AC current. I'm getting
> a considerable amount of gas development at the electrode that is
primarily
> positive, and *no gas at all* at the other electrode. There is also a
strong smell of bleach. The electrodes are steel plate. I turned off the
power, and turned it on again after intervals of varying length, varying
from seconds to an hour or so. I don't let it run for more than a few
minutes at a time, due to the stench.
> Placing the electrolysis cell directly across the DC power supply had the
same result. IOW it doesn't appear to be anything to do with the AC current.
> There is a stain spreading out through the electrolyte, from cathode to
anode.
> Any suggestions as to what is happening to my hydrogen? If it's being
absorbed into the steel, how much can steel absorb (/ unit volume)?
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> Competition provides the motivation,
> Cooperation provides the means.
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 24 13:00:42 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Strange result
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 07:58:46 +1100
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In reply to  Nicholas Reiter's message of Sun, 24 Nov 2002 07:58:02 -0500:
Hi Nick,

Thanks for the tip. I was looking for a simple method of distinguishing the chloride.

>Robin,
>
>A quick test to check for a mis-labelled chemical...  take a little of your
>"KNO3", put it in a test tube or beaker, and add a little water, just enough
>to let it start to dissolve.  Feel the beaker.  If it becomes very cold,
>then you probably have KCl.  KCl has a negative heat of solution. (or is it
>"positive" - oh well, whatever - it gets cold when it dissolves)
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 24 15:08:02 2002
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Robin,
You can tell the difference between KCl and KNO3 several different ways.
Solutions of KCl and AgNO3, when mixed, produce a white precipitate.  Mixing KNO3 and AgNO3 produces nothing.

When examined under a microscope  KCl looks like little cubes.  KNO3 looks like little rectangles.

Carbon powder when saturated with KNO3 and dried will burn easily.  Use of KCl makes the carbon practically inert to a flame.

I suspect you are reducing KNO3 to KNO2 at the cathode which removes the H2 and converts it to H2O.  The smell is NO2.

Ed

Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Yakov Smirnoff's message of Sat, 23 Nov 2002 23:55:40 -0500:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >I'd check who gave you KCl....potassium chloride or similar halide salt
> >instead of the nitrate.  The bleach smell may be chlorine gas forming
> [snip]
> Yes, I had already considered that myself. That's why I mentioned that it was sold to me as KNO3, rather than saying that it was KNO3.
>
> However, that still doesn't explain why there was no hydrogen gas.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> Competition provides the motivation,
> Cooperation provides the means.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Nov 24 16:27:59 2002
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Photons and dark matter
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At 9:58 AM 11/23/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:29:32 -0800:
>Hi,
>[snip]
>>An argument that the average photon energy is large, on the order of an eV,
>>is that at the time of the big bang the universe was eqaully populated with
>>mater and anti-matter.  Through a break in symmetry, the anti-matter was
>>destroyed, converting it to energy.
>>This implies that a lower bound on the
>>energy of a photon must be around .2 eV in order for it to correspond to
>>the matter destroyed.
>
>How do you know how much matter-antimatter was destroyed, to allow you
>calculate the 0.2 eV?


I assumed the amount of anti-matter being destroyed at big bang time being
at least equal to the amount of matter known to exist.  We can assume in
normal matter one neutron per protron, and in the initially matching
anti-matter one anti-proton and one anti-neutron.  Assuming one proton for
every 10^10 photons, one neutron per protron, each protron and neutron
equivalent to about 1x10^9 eV, we have about 0.2 eV per photon.

I was simply assuming the (present) ratio of 10^11 photons per proton to be
a given.  However, this may be a very wrong assumption in that it is not a
directly  measured value, but (I think) a theoretical value based on a
cosmological theory plus the measured abundance of helium in the universe

I further assumed that more matter annihilating at big bang time would
RAISE the average energy per presently existing photon, since there are a
fixed number of present photons and an unknown amount of mass behind the
energy they carry.  This would mean that 0.2 eV is a lower bound because we
have a lower bound on the mass behind the photon energy, that bound being
the mass of existing normal matter.  This too could be an erroneous
assumption in that the energy from the initial mass annihilations and/or
the symmetry breaking reactions could be either tied up in black holes,
moving away from the universe in an unobservable envelope of photons more
distant than any matter, or somehow reabsorbed by the universe.  Perhaps
all the really energetic photons form the big bang are thus not observable
due to being tied up very quickly in unobservable form.   However, if the
proposed theory is correct, hat mass/energy remains in balance
indefinitely, the photons of the annihilated matter and their mass/energy
must still exist somewhere.



>
>>If we further assume that some portion of the normal
>>matter was converted to (photon) energy, say about half,
>
>It could have been any amount, from one part per billion, to 99.999999%.
>This depends utterly on the degree to which the symmetry was broken,
>which AFAIK is complete guess work.


Yes for sure to to that!  Further, it is possible that matter zones and
anti-matter zones were created at the big bang and somehow the anti-matter
zones converted their mass/energy into black holes early on.  This could
mean that most of the black hole mass in the universe consists of
anti-matter.

On another note: it seems reasonable, due to the small size and large mass
of the universe at the big bang, that we were in a black hole at the time
of the formation of the universe, at the big bang.  If we are still in that
black hole, it is a horrific thought that the big bang photon "shockwave"
that departed the bang at a velocity c, faster than any matter could
follow, will eventually return.  Further, if we are in a black hole, the
universe might be much smaller than we realize, and the red shift may be
due to gravitational red shift and due to an unexpected mass distribution
in the universe.  Fortunately, this is idle speculation, of course.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Unusual interaction of a laser beam with a plasma
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Nick,

The following is just some food for thought when you get a look at the jet.

Assume a gas density of He (.178 kg/m^3), a .5 liter/min flow rate, an
annular nozzle size of about 10 mm OD and inner plug of about 8 mm, giving
about a 1 mm plasma sheeet, and a minimum deflection of 1 deg. in order to
be "clearly visible".

The flow cross section area:

   A = Pi ( (.5 cm)^2 - (.4 cm)^2) = .283 cm^2

Flow speed:

   v = [(500 cm^3)/(.283 cm^2)]/(60 sec) = 30 cm/sec = .3 m/sec

The mass flow deflection angle momentum ratio:

   sin(1 deg.) = 0.01745

The lateral mass flow is:

   sin(1 deg.)*(0.3 m/s)*(.283 cm^2)*(.178 kg/m^3) = 2.6x10^-8 kg/s

and multiplying by velocity (again) we get a force of deflection:

   sin(1 deg.)*(0.3 m/s)^2*(.283 cm^2)*(.178 kg/m^3) = 7.9x10^-9 N

This is about 8x10^-7 grams of force, or .8 micrograms, which is a very
small force indeed.

Now, let's for a moment consider that this came from photon thrust.  The
power P required is (P = F c as derived later below) then:

   P = F c = (7.9x10^-9 N)*(c) = 2.4 W

which is 3 orders of magnitude too large for the 5 mW laser.  The
deflection can not be due to the laser beam momentum.

However, there is a source of a lot more than 2.4 W power from the RF.  It
seems likely that increased ionization on the side of the jet towards the 5
mW laser causes lateral ion acceleration toward the laser that deflects
(the tail end of) the beam visibly in the direction of the laser beam.  The
mass flow of the lateral jet caused by the laser, which would be directed
towards the laser, or even the increased (5 mW worth of) ionization there
may not even be visible, and/or may be masked by the laser light.

I hope I got all those calculations correct.

Following are some old (supporting) calculations relating to individual
photons used as rocket mass reactants.  The starting assumptions:


   E = h nu   (Planck)             (1)

   E = m c^2   (Einstein)          (2)

   lambda = c/v                    (3)

   p = E/c = (h)(nu)/c = h/lambda    (4)

If photons are emitted at rate n photons per second for time t, then the
total reaction force is given by:

   F = (n p)/t                      (5)

and the power supplied to the rocket is given by:

   P = (E n)/t                       (6)

It is of interest the amount of energy required per unit of momentum
supplied to the rocket is obtained by substituting (4) into E/p:

   E/p = E/(E/c) = c               (7)

Notice that the amount of energy per unit of momentum is independent of
wavelength of the photon.

To determine the power cost per unit of thrust we devide (6) by (5) to obtain:

   P/F = (n E)/(n p) = E/p      (8)

but from (7) E/p = c, so:

   P/F = c                     (9)

and we also immediately see:

   P = c F                     (10)

We know that one kg-force is equalto 9.807 newtons, or 9.807 kg-m/s^2.  So
we now see that to produce thrust using photons of any energy we need to
supply a power to the photonic drive of at least:

   P = (3x10^8 m/s)(9.807 kg-m/s^2) = 2.94x10^9 kg-m^2/s^3         (11)

   P = 2.94x10^9 watts                 (12)

per kg-f of thrust.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 25 11:49:29 2002
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Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:44:38 +1300
From: RBR <RBR clear.net.nz>
Subject: re 10 dollors
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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hi  how am I going to get 10 bucks to you ,I live in New Zealand?.
   very good site.    =20
 regards Bruce=20
 PS I could make an offering to a charity here on your behalf.

------=_NextPart_000_0129_01C29528.0E70D020
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>hi&nbsp; how am I going to get 10 bucks =
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live in New Zealand?.</FONT></DIV>
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good&nbsp;site.</FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;regards Bruce </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;PS I could make an offering to a =
charity here=20
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 25 12:05:29 2002
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 15:04:19 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: re 10 dollors
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RBR wrote:

>hi  how am I going to get 10 bucks to you ,I live in New Zealand?.
>    very good site.
>  regards Bruce

I did not see the first message in this thread, so I am not sure what it is 
in reference to, or who is asking for $10, but anyway, here is a 
suggestion. A world-wide service called "PayPal" is becoming increasingly 
popular. It allows private individuals with PayPal accounts to receive 
credit card payments. (The person paying you does not have to have a PayPal 
account.) The charge to individuals is about 5%, I think, which is 
reasonable for a small transactions at low volume.

See:

https://www.paypal.com/

Come to think of it, perhaps Bill Beaty should get one of these accounts so 
that we can more conveniently (and punctually) help him defray the cost of 
this discussion group.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 25 12:27:58 2002
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:40:28 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Photons and dark matter - a short note - correction
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At 1:29 PM 11/23/2, FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 11/23/2002 7:31:02 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>hheffner mtaonline.net writes:
>
>> It is not the acceleration of energy that fails in this (Frank's) context,
>> but rather the counter-force on the accelerating mass (the mass that bends
>> the photon path) that fails to be accounted for.  That is the basis of my
>> hypothesis: suppose there IS a counter force on the mass that redirects
>> (deflects) the photon.  I demonstrate by thought experiment that
>> conservation of momentum and energy are violated if such counter-force does
>> not exist.  Given that the counter-force hypothesis IS true, then there is
>> no difference in results between my hypothesis and the alternative
>> hypothesis that photons carry gravity, i.e. that photons exchange
>> gravitons.  If something in all ways acts exactly like a rose why not call
>> it a rose, or assume it might actually be a rose.  Two systems that are
>> isomorphic are really the same system with differing
>> nomenclature.
>
>Exacltly, this is where I started my reasoning.  I hold that the the
>conservation of momentum always applies.  In gravitational light bending
>gravity changes the momentum of light.  There must be a reaction to this
>change in momentum.  This reaction is produced when bending light
>generates a gravitational field.  This induced field reaches back and
>changes the momentum of the the system. From general realitivity the
>required induced field is is G/ccr(dp/dt)
>
>frank Z


As far as I can see your reasoning does not provide any special means for
gravity being created during the acceleration.  At this point this seems to
be a chicken and egg problem.  Which is the cause and which is the effect?
If a photon is being accelerated, then it is in a gravity field, be that
field due to space warp or graviton exchange.  If the photon IS in a
gravity field, then it is the mechanism of that field production that
accounts for the gravity and thus the photon acceleration.  The
acceleration is merely a manifestation of that gravitational field and not
a causitive agent.  Your assumption that there is photon acceleration is an
a priori assumption of the existence of a gravitational field.   That there
is a counter-force on the field producing agent is then due to the symmetry
of the gravity exchange mechanism, be it gravity exchange or mutual space
warping of two mass carrying bodies.  You provide no other means of
gravitational force exchange, nor of photon acceleration.  Your equations
merely show the well known relation of acceleration (or at least momentum
change) and gravitational fields.  That essentially amounts to a
description of and not an explanation for the counter-force.

An alternative hypothesis, that in my opinion actually provides an
explanation for the counter-force, is that photons carry mass, have mass at
all times, regardless of their acceleration.  This then provides a
causitive agent for the counter-force on the accelerating body.  If a
graviton force exchange model is used then the counter-force comes from the
symmetry of the graviton particle exchange.  If the space warping GR model
is used then the fact that the photon has mass can be used to show that the
space warping about the photon (due to the mass the photon carries) creates
exactly the right apparent acceleration of the mass which interacts with
the photon to produce equal but opposed forces.  The mass of the photon is
then not deferent from any other mass, except at the moments of photon
creation and destruction.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 25 16:06:50 2002
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:04:55 EST
Subject: Re: re 10 dollors
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I don't want 10 bucks.  I have a young girl that collects coins.  Could you 
send a few New Zealand coins to us?  She is next to me in my birthday 
picture.

Frank Znidarsic
481 Boyer St.
Johnstown PA.  15906 USA

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 25 17:48:31 2002
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Subject: Re: re 10 dollors
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At 8:44 AM 11/26/2, RBR wrote:
>hi  how am I going to get 10 bucks to you ,I live in New Zealand?.
>   very good site.
> regards Bruce
> PS I could make an offering to a charity here on your behalf.


Donations to support this list are mailed to:

            William J. Beaty
            7040 22nd Ave NW
            Seattle, WA 98117

You can contact Bill directly at  <billb eskimo.com> for suggestions about
alternative methods of sending donations.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 25 18:11:36 2002
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Nov. 25, 2002

Vortex,

The recent issue of Infinite Energy magazine, Volume 8. issue 48 2002,
contains a notice that henceforth a non-profit, tax deductible
charitable organization called the New Energy Foundation, Inc. (NEF) has
been formed and the publication of the magazine is now being published
by it. The tax deductible portion is to be decided by the IRS soon and
announced. The directorship of the NEF is made up of four New
Hampshireans. Who makes up the directorship are not identified by names
Other changes noted in the magazine are the names of Jed Rothwell and
Susan Seddon as contributing editors. They are no longer listed.
Also there is no explanation of the now missing mention or activities of
New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL). What happened to it and Ken
Rauen?
The recent Vortex crossfire between 'Gene and Jed over Correa may have
been staged in light of the changes occurring at the magazine. Why do I
say this? The publication position states that "Infinite Energy does not
independently verify the content, citation, validity . or paternity of
anything published herein by ousted authors." That being the case, why
the hubbub?
The magazine still has Eugene Mallove as Editor-in-Chief and now
president of NEF, inc. All communication numbers and address remains the
same.
One other item. "The Scientific Advisory Board " listing of eight
scientists world-wide has been listed from the beginning of the magazine
and still remains unchanged and un-updated. It has never been explained
what their function to the magazine is/has been. I wonder if, only by
lending names, it only supposedly adds to the creditability of the
publication and nothing else.

-AK-


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Nov 25 19:42:12 2002
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Subject: Re: Status of Infinite Energy magaxine
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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On 11/25/02 6:12 PM, "Akira Kawasaki" <aki ix.netcom.com> wrote:


Akira,

Since you have been a good friend of Infinite Energy, let me answer some of
your questions.

> Nov. 25, 2002
> 
> Vortex,
> 
> The recent issue of Infinite Energy magazine, Volume 8. issue 48 2002,
> contains a notice that henceforth a non-profit, tax deductible
> charitable organization called the New Energy Foundation, Inc. (NEF) has
> been formed and the publication of the magazine is now being published
> by it.

That is correct. The main reason is that since Infinite Energy has always
required either gifts or loans to bridge the gap between expenses and
revenue  -- despite an increasing number of issues now on newsstands, it is
advantageous to benefactors to donate to a 501c3 organization. It's a simple
as that. The New Hampshire corporation, Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. still
exists and has partial ownership in certain intellectual property rights
(patent applications, demonstration devices, etc.) -- mostly due to the
exemplary work of NERL's Ken Rauen.  This work is confidential for now, but
it is in the realm of thermodynamics, as you may have guessed.  Publications
are being contemplated, pending the resolution of patent issues.


> The tax deductible portion is to be decided by the IRS soon and
> announced. 

NEF is a New Hampshire non-profit corporation.


>The directorship of the NEF is made up of four New
> Hampshireans.

Five, including myself.


>Who makes up the directorship are not identified by names
> Other changes noted in the magazine are the names of Jed Rothwell and
> Susan Seddon as contributing editors.

These have always been contributors, not editors. So that is how it is
reflected in the masthead.  Jed is welcome to contribute articles to
Infinite Energy -- he has one in the present issue.  We have offered
material from IE to his web site lenr-canr.com, which is doing an important
archival task for LENR-type new energy.  But Infinite Energy's focus is much
broader than the LENR field, as you know.



> They are no longer listed.
> Also there is no explanation of the now missing mention or activities of
> New Energy Research Laboratory (NERL). What happened to it and Ken
> Rauen?


This was discussed in the an earlier IE devices and processes update.
Perhaps you missed it.  Until further notice -- or until some repeatable
cold fusion (new hydrogen physics, LENR, call it what you will..)
demonstration device or process appears, we are no longer in active pursuit
of such devices -- these have consumed far too much effort in our facility
already, without satisfactory outcome.  We have continuing contact and
cooperation with Les Case, however.  Our interest is now mainly in other new
energy devices and potential processes that work repeatably and predictably,
e.g. the Correa PAGD reactor.

> The recent Vortex crossfire between 'Gene and Jed over Correa may have
> been staged in light of the changes occurring at the magazine.

There was nothing "staged." Jed and I have had severe differences of opinion
about his public utterances about Mills, Shoulders, Bearden, and the
Correas, among others.  We don't see eye to eye on many matters of tone and
focus on frontier science -- except in our common interest in the need for
LENR to succeed against the odds arrayed against it.


> Why do I
> say this? The publication position states that "Infinite Energy does not
> independently verify the content, citation, validity . or paternity of
> anything published herein by ousted authors."

You mean by "outside" authors!  This statement has been on our masthead for
quite some time at the recommendation of legal specialists.


>That being the case, why
> the hubbub?

What hubbub are you talking about?

> The magazine still has Eugene Mallove as Editor-in-Chief and now
> president of NEF, inc. All communication numbers and address remains the
> same.

Akira, I hope I have explained the transition to your satisfaction.  We hope
to broaden the base of IE benefactors and go beyond covering the expenses of
the basic operations.  New Energy Foundation, if it is successful, aims to
fund critically needed experiments throughout the new energy field,
including good work going on in LENR.

> One other item. "The Scientific Advisory Board " listing of eight
> scientists world-wide has been listed from the beginning of the magazine
> and still remains unchanged and un-updated. It has never been explained
> what their function to the magazine is/has been.

They are called on from time to time to render opinions about a range of
matters. Indeed,  as with many publications, they hold honorary positions on
the masthead for their well known scientific expertise.


> I wonder if, only by
> lending names, it only supposedly adds to the creditability of the
> publication and nothing else.

No, they do render opinions from time to time.
> 
> -AK-

Best wishes,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
President, New Energy Foundation, Inc.
P.O. Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816
  www.infinite-energy.com

Ph: 603-228-4516
Fx: 603-224-5975

**********

P.S.  To anticipate any further comments concerning the above matter and an
ad on page five of the current IE issue (www.aethera.org): Yes, this is a
separate matter in which I am involved with Uri Soudak and the Correas and
others. It is separate from NEF, pays for its ad space in IE, and has
separate post office box and phone/fax number. Here is the announcement of
today from Akronos:



Akronos Publishing is pleased to announce the release, in DVD format, of
a joint ABRI/Aethera documentary production

    "From Pulsed Plasma Power to the Aether Motor"


This DVD provides an overview of both the PAGD and the ORgone/Aether
Motor research efforts undertaken by Dr. Paulo Correa & Alexandra Correa
at Labofex (1987-2002) and at the Aurora Biophysics Research Institute
(ABRI) (1996-2002).  It also includes a short review of the
HYBORAC/Stirling Motor technology (2001-2002).

Introduced by Dr. H. Aspden and Dr. E. Mallove - advisors to this
production - the video documents the essential aspects of two distinct
and benign technologies of power generation.  Including original
documentary footage filmed between 1987 and 2001, the video is a basic
introduction to the auto-electronically pulsed plasma research at
Labofex - Experimental and Applied Plasma Physics, which led to the
identification of the autogenous PAGD regime and the invention of aPAGD
inverter applications as well as the XS NRG (TM) Converter System.  The
second part of the video documents the basics of the ABRI effort to
reproduce Reich's discovery of the ORgone Motor as well as the improved
Aether Motor invented by the Correas.  Filled with simple demonstrations
of massfree aether energy - in vacua, in the ground and atmosphere, and
in human beings - this video illustrates the existence of an energy realm
which, until now, has been both ignored and grossly misunderstood.  Most
of this footage was first presented at the Second Berlin Conference on
Innovative Energy Technologies, on June 15th, 2002.


ISBN 1-894840-19-4, ~104 min.

SPECIAL PRICE:  $39.95 + shipping ($4 within US, $8 international)


TO ORDER:  http://www.aethera.org
           OR call 603-226-0837 to order via phone/fax
           OR send check/money order to:
             Aethera, PO. Box 181, Suncook, NH 03275
             Include your name, phone number and shipping address.







> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 26 06:07:32 2002
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <little earthtech.org>
Subject: Re: Hydrino Hydride Cold Fusion Connection?
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 07:03:53 -0600
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The fusion reaction:

 P + e + P ---> D + neutrino + ~ 2.05  Mev

is an accepted fusion reaction.

OTOH:

P + e + P ---> "Hydrino Hydride" (D*) + ? Kev
Or
P + e + D ---> neutron + "Hydrino Hydride" (D*) + neutrino + ? Kev

is possible, if the mass of the "Hydrino Hydride" or (D*) indicating it's similarity
to a Deuteron with a mass of 2.0140 amu, is less than 2.01370 amu, from a Mass Defect
standpoint, if the internal binding energy or quark arrangement allows it, whereas
Mills' "fractional orbit hydrino"  is discounted by the establishment as being
"impossible".

By the same token the reaction:

D + e + D ---> 2 neutrons + "Hydrino Hydride" (D*) + neutrino + ? Kev

is also possible, if the mass of the "Hydrino Hydride" (D*)is less than 2.0110  amu.

In either case the reaction (D*) + (D*) ---> He4 + 18.5-23.1 Mev could occur.

This would also account for the low energy deuteron stripping.

Could these "Deuteron Isomers" be what Mills is claiming as Hydrino Hydride, and also
be what is being produced in the Cold Fusion phenomena?

Regards,

Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Nov 26 06:17:59 2002
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From: "Noel Whitney" <quantum iol.ie>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021125145358.0390ec58 mail.DIRECTVInternet.com>
Subject: Re: re 10 dollors
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:17:49 -0000
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Jed - Thants a great idea - never heard of them,
i will join up as im allways looking for easy ways to send small amounts
worldwide.

best wishes
Noel Whitney
Quantum Leap in Ireland.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: re 10 dollors


> RBR wrote:
>
> >hi  how am I going to get 10 bucks to you ,I live in New Zealand?.
> >    very good site.
> >  regards Bruce
>
> I did not see the first message in this thread, so I am not sure what it
is
> in reference to, or who is asking for $10, but anyway, here is a
> suggestion. A world-wide service called "PayPal" is becoming increasingly
> popular. It allows private individuals with PayPal accounts to receive
> credit card payments. (The person paying you does not have to have a
PayPal
> account.) The charge to individuals is about 5%, I think, which is
> reasonable for a small transactions at low volume.
>
> See:
>
> https://www.paypal.com/
>
> Come to think of it, perhaps Bill Beaty should get one of these accounts
so
> that we can more conveniently (and punctually) help him defray the cost of
> this discussion group.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 27 04:07:11 2002
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Message-ID: <3DE4B4ED.F8BB28A9 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:05:01 +0200
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Reply-To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
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Subject: Generation of High Quality Laser Accelerated Ion Beams
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http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0211104

"In order to achieve a high quality, i. e. monoergetic, intense ion beam, we
 propose the use of a double layer target. The first layer, at the target
 front, consists of high-Z atoms, while the second (rear) layer is a thin
 coating of low-Z atoms. The high quality proton beams from the double
 layer target, irradiated by an ultra-intense laser pulse, are demonstrated
 with three dimensional Particle-in-Cell simulations."

I Just saw this paper which could be a reference on the recent subject 
"Unusual interaction of a laser beam with a plasma".

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Nov 27 19:57:13 2002
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From: "Craig Haynie" <cchaynie ix.netcom.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <NFBBJMADALIIAMPEBBELEEIDCGAA.xplorer indo.net.id>
Subject: Re: Paypal: e-gold is better: re 10 dollars
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:55:20 -0600
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> If Bill would do an e-gold account
>  (the account is free and virtually instantaneous,
>    the payments fees are truly microscopic)
> I would pay up tomorrow.

Just for the record, I'll gladly pay through E-Gold, (immediately), as well.

Craig (Houston)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 29 12:36:11 2002
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <126.1b9cd90c.2b192918 aol.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:33:28 EST
Subject: determined all of the zero point properties of matter
To: GeorgeHM aol.com, haisch@calphysics.org, HaraldReissHD@aol.com,
        JedRothwell infinite-energy.com (Jed Rothwell), Scottychubb@cs.com,
        storms2 ix.netcom.com (Edmund Storms), Puthoff@aol.com
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I had a litte time and sat down and determined all of the zero point 
properties of matter.  I did this with the idea that space has a limit to its 
elastisity.  I think it is good work.

 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html">Chapter 10 Revised</A> 


Frank Znidarsic

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>I had a litte time and sat down and determined all of the zero point properties of matter.&nbsp; I did this with the idea that space has a limit to its elastisity.&nbsp; I think it is good work.<BR>
<BR>
 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chaptera.html">Chapter 10 Revised</A> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic</FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Nov 29 13:13:09 2002
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Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 16:11:31 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Larry Wharton <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Good News on Status of Infinite Energy magazine
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I was pleased to read the following good news about Infinite Energy Magazine:



from
>Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine:

>
>This was discussed in the an earlier IE devices and processes update.
>Perhaps you missed it.  Until further notice -- or until some repeatable
>cold fusion (new hydrogen physics, LENR, call it what you will..)
>demonstration device or process appears, we are no longer in active pursuit
>of such devices -- these have consumed far too much effort in our facility
>already, without satisfactory outcome.  We have continuing contact and
>cooperation with Les Case, however.  Our interest is now mainly in other new
>energy devices and potential processes that work repeatably and predictably,
>e.g. the Correa PAGD reactor.

I had allowed my subscription to IE Magazine to lapse because it 
contained too much cold fusion stuff in it.  However, I had always 
thought, and made this opinion known, that IE Magazine was a very 
important and valuable source of information on other new energy 
devices.  So I will now subscribe to it again.  Could someone please 
post the subscription information.

-- 
Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 614-6121  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 30 00:36:43 2002
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Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 00:39:18 -0800
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
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Nov. 29, 2002

Vortex,

I see there are links being listed from the website. Will other links
that are CF specific such as Mitchell Swartz's Cold Fusion Times be
listed? That should be easier than loading in the papers.

Why not incorporate the LENR- CANR. ORG website as a non-profit, tax
deductible endeavor just as Infinite Energy finally been transformed?

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 30 00:48:53 2002
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Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 00:51:44 -0800
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ] EZE WEENIE MICRO POWER MOTOR  0.0509 Watts
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021114123256.14382I-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
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November 29, 2002

Finally got around to finding the item. This is an available electric
motor that is approx. 1/4" diam by 1/2" long with about 3/16" shaft. It
runs on 1.5-3 volts DC using 65 milliams.
It functions as a vibrator for cellphones running an imbalamced weight.

-AK-

John Schnurer wrote:

>         Dear Folks,
>
>         On another note the motors that operate commercial devices
> use very little power in some cases.
>
>         Does anyone have any examples of very low power motors?
>
> On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Ben Thomas wrote:
>
> > Hi Gang
> >
> > I invite you to check out the latest on the EZE WEENIE Micro Power
> > ADAMS type motor.  If I hadn't made all the measurements myself, I
> > wouldn't believe it! Notice all measurements are to at least 3
> > places and in some cases 5 places when calculated.
> >
> > http://www.geocities.com/k4zep/
> >
> > It measures .0509 watts, DC input 50.9 mw.  6.82 X 10-5 HP!  Enjoy
> > and read the theory, it is VERY important.  There is more energy
> > there than from the battery, I just don't see how that kind of power
> > can turn that wheel otherwise!
> >
> > To show how sensitive it is, increasing the voltage from 1.54 to
> > 1.84 VDC will increase the RPM to 84 with only about 10% increase in
> > power input.  This appears to be the absolute bottom value for this
> > setup that the motor will run not the best combo, but the least.
> > The funny thing too is the bearings in the old bicycle wheel are
> > noisy as an ol granny.  They just grind away!
> >
> > Respectfully
> >
> > Ben
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Nov 30 05:45:03 2002
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Subject: Re: Good News on Status of Infinite Energy magazine
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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On 11/29/02 1:11 PM, "Larry Wharton" <wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote:

> I had allowed my subscription to IE Magazine to lapse because it
> contained too much cold fusion stuff in it.  However, I had always
> thought, and made this opinion known, that IE Magazine was a very
> important and valuable source of information on other new energy
> devices.  So I will now subscribe to it again.  Could someone please
> post the subscription information.
> 
> -- 
> Lawrence E. Wharton
> NASA/GSFC code 913
> Greenbelt MD 20771
> (301) 614-6121  Email - wharton climate.gsfc.nasa.gov
> 
> 


Thanks, Larry!

It's still $29.95/year for North America, $49.95/year elsewhere.

Infinite Energy Magazine
New Energy Foundation, Inc.
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816

  Ph: 603-228-4516
  Fx: 603-224-5975

   www.infinite-energy.com
   


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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Thanks for the suggestions, Akira.  Links will be added as Jed gets
time.  Right now emphasis is on making quality papers available in full
text and adding useful features to the website.  This alone is a full
time job for Jed.

Incorporating the website as a nonprofit organization was planned from
the beginning and will be implemented in the future.  Right now, the
amount of money needed is too small to warrant the time and money needed
to create such an organization.  However, when the effort devoted to the
site becomes more than we can handle, financial support will be sought.
Success of the site depends on how much interest it creates and how much
support it receives from people in the field.  Sale of the CD has be
underwelming and contributions of electronic versions of papers have
been frustratingly small, requiring excessive time for scanning and
OCR.  This must change before the site can justify asking for financial
support.

We are creating a discussion section that is hoped will focus comments
about the papers and allow creative exchanges between authors and
skeptics.  The intent is to allow mistakes to be acknowledged and
corrected, to allow good suggestions to be added to publications, and to
allow better communication between skeptics and supporters.  This
discussion forum will be in sharp contrast to what occurs on other
forums.  Success will depend on how useful this resource becomes.

Ed

Akira Kawasaki wrote:

> Nov. 29, 2002
>
> Vortex,
>
> I see there are links being listed from the website. Will other links
> that are CF specific such as Mitchell Swartz's Cold Fusion Times be
> listed? That should be easier than loading in the papers.
>
> Why not incorporate the LENR- CANR. ORG website as a non-profit, tax
> deductible endeavor just as Infinite Energy finally been transformed?
>
> -AK-

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Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:04:21 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell mindspring.com>
Subject: New e-mail address
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My e-mail is now:

JedRothwell mindspring.com

or

JedRothwell lenr-canr.org (for material relating to cold fusion).

- Jed 

