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From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: a Cold Fusion Letter to ACS appears 
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January 01, 2002

Vortex,

Here's hoping for a better year for everybody.

I would like to quote whole a letter to the Chemical & Engineering News
that appeared in the December 24, 2001 issue of the ACS magazine. It was
written by Scott Chubb, S, Szpak and P.A. Mosier. It is very good letter
for starters. I agree except for some small details.

QUOTE:
" Cold Fusion

Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons  announced in a press conference
that nuclear events can be initiated by electrochemically compressing
deuterium into the palladium lattice and that these events manifest
themselves in the form of excess enthalpy generation. The heat
generation rate was consistent with that expected for nuclear processes
taking place in a fast-breeder reactor. The mode of the announcement,
the term cold fusion, the invasion of traditional physicist's domain by
chemists, and limited disclosure of details prevented duplication.
Claims were rejected, fraud often was implied, and papers submitted for
publication were returned with inappropriate comments.
   In intervening years, Fleischmann and Pon's claims were confirmed in
many laboratories in the U.S. and abroad. Researchers report that that
excess enthalpy is generated at discrete locations randomly distributed
in time and space, helium production is proportional to to the amount of
excess heat, tritium is produced sporadically at rates about 10^4 atoms
per second, and a broad spectrum X-ray emission with recognizable peaki
at 21kev is observed.
Today, cold fusion can no longer be regarded as pathological science.
Given the wealth of experimental and theoretical information that
exists, it is surprising that the information about the subject is not
appearing in mainstream scientific journals.
   First, because of an apparent consensus to most physicists that is
based on incomplete and incorrect information, meaningful discussion of
relevant scientific issues in scientific journals never took place.
Second, as a result of this consensus, the scientific adjudication
process ceased to be self correcting. This is because scientists have
ceased to monitor experiments, and additional experiments that could
potentially verify or disprove positive cold fusion claims are not being
performed.
   We believe this situation will not change until editorial policies of
the majority of scientific journals, which currently do not allow cold
fusion papers even to be reviewed, are modified.
]S. Szpak and P.A. Mosier
San Diego, Calif.
Scott R. Chubb, Washington, D.C."
-UNQUOTE-

Dr. Storm's recently rejected paper is a victim of the existing
"consensus".

-AK-


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan  1 13:07:16 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Real actual test
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 08:02:41 +1100
Organization: Improving
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I told you it was a test!


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan  1 22:39:00 2002
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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Railroads may be a good target for fuel cell transportation
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 22:29:00 -0800
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Bear,
	When you post to a list, you post to all its members.
The reason we have "flags of convienence" is because your socialist freinds,
members of the trade unions representing the shipping worker,and their
government representiatives, make it more profitable to do so. "Free market"
is in fact "controlled Market"

If you are implying that you are a truck driver, and have driven 500,000
miles accident free, you make my point not yours. YOu were the safe driver,
and responsable.

The companies and drivers you mentioned and accidents you witnessed are
representavive of the lack of skill and responsability you witnessed, not
that it is inherently unsafe.

So your socialist tactic is to brand an entire industry as unsafe, therfore
pushing through a reform that is more safe.

When Seatbelts and Airbags were mandated by people like you, it did not make
people safer.
In fact, more people died in accidents with restraints, due to higher
speeds, due to people thinking they were safer.

What will be the cost to poor people when your socialized transportation
system costs so much, that the cannot afford to buy a gallon of milk for
their children ?

In fact, Canada is ripping up thousands of miles of track that farmers use
to get their grain to market, which the Crown sets the price, and soley
buys. The average farmer now cannot get their grain to the storage silo's
before the grain spoils.

Socialism does not work in any other country in the world, so why do you try
to make it here ?

You are obviously not one of those people that can objectivly have a
conversation based on facts, you take something that is pointed out to you
as a truthful fact, and turned it into a persoanl attack.

I only said you must be a socialist to believe that way, as an observation
that I have heard the exact same arguments before. I was right.

Only you can say if you feel fulfilled....

Happy new year,
Matt


-----Original Message-----
From: Standing Bear [mailto:rockcast net-link.net]
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 9:47 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Railroads may be a good target for fuel cell transportation


Dear Readers,
	Jed and I had this exchange some time ago;  now this 'Matt'
has to pick it up.   I read Matt's letter through and after some thought
decided that its' gross ignorance speaks eloquently for itself.  The idea
of claiming that shipping companies are creatures of the US government
is ludicrous on its face, seeing as how most of these fly flags of
convenience
in order to get away from United States' regulations and safety laws not
to dream of mentioning taxes.  I would just love to be a mouse in the
corner in some congressional hearing room when this howler comes up
and is closely followed up by questions from the IRS and congressional
conspiracy to evade taxes.  That is only one item.  Read on,  Matt's letter
is full of them.  By the way, Matt, I AM a socialist.  Does that shock you?
Does it make you puke in your pablum?  Do you now go running to
Alamagordo, New Mexico to denounce me and others as witches too?
	500,000 miles, accident free, on our highways driving
semi-tractor trailor rigs in all weather and in all states including states
of Mexico and provinces of Canada have taught me of the inherent
unsafeness of truck freight hauling.  I have seen too many die right in
front
of me.  I have seen too many wrecks at the bottom of canyons and
dropoffs.  Wrecks that were never even visited, they were so
inaccessable.  I have seen the bridge over the 'Two Medicine River'
in Montana outside the Blackfoot Indian Reserve/Reservation, where
there is a rosary of white crosses every 10 feet for over 6 miles.  I
have had God's hand on mine while saving the life of a careless driver
in Chicago who pulled in front of me while descending into the city
one dark, icy night.  I know of too many drivers who drove around
scales because they were overweight.  I know of a company in Salt
Lake City that professes to be pillars of their church;  It is known that
they
put unsafe equipment on the road;  It is known that drivers hired by them
took illegal drugs in order to stay awake, knowing that they had
to stay awake and drive for over 30 hours straight in order to make
some deliveries......and keep their jobs.  It is known  this company refused
to insure its drivers or its loads, and knowingly hired drivers purely
for the reason that they could basically 'lie with a straight face':  keep
fraudulent hours logs, conceal drug use, drive over hours.  It is known
that this company had drivers follow certain routes in the metropolitan
area of Chicago with illegal loads, promising to pay the tickets of
those unlucky enough to be stopped.  None were, and the routes
went right past the front of the headquarters of the Illinois State
Police for northern Illinois.  They had a VERY large parking lot,
and it was FULL of 'bears' (cops)!   I could go on for a VERY
long time about this.  You see, Matt, I have experience in this
that I seriousely doubt you have.

Standing Bear
  besides, it WAS just Jed and I talking!




On Monday 31 December 2001 07:45 pm, Matthew Rogers wrote:
> Bear,
> 	Although this list is devoted to mind gaming out potentianl applications
> of CF,
> every once in a while i see you drop some personal assumption into your
> comments that are without basis or truth.
>
> You must be a socialist it want to think that the government can run the
> rail system better than it does. The government already has controlling
> interest in almost all the shipping lines including rail, thay have bought
> stock in them since their inception. American President Lines, Matson,
> Union Pacific Santa FE RR, CNX, are all "owned" already by the american
> public, through stocks and intest in other companies that they cross own.
> 	Burlington Northern has the largest privately owned trucking fleet in the
> world. In fact, most of the rail industry is at 98% or higher capacity and
> is already looking for ways to lay more track.
>
> The original track laid in this country exist on right of ways that were
> given away by the governemt to private industry to build the rails system
> we have now.
>
> I can see no reason to steal it back from them to make it any more
> efficent.
>
> Furthermore, The Interstate Highway system was coped from the Nazi's who
> could mobilize troops on the highway much faster than the existing rail
> system, and so kept the core of Germany safe from outside influence up
till
> the end of the war.
>
> The express purpose of the reason we built the Interste highway system was
> to transfer troops across our country, and goods going to market. Your Car
> is not part of that.
>
> As for being inherantly unsafe, so is flying airplanes.
>
> Yet the trucking industry and the airplane industry both have professional
> people personaly responsable for their truck or plane getting the cargo to
> its destination.
>
> Airplanes and trucks enjoy the lowest accident per mile of any
> transportation. Yet fatalaties and accidents are procalimed like you to be
> unsafe.
>
> In the case of trucks, of all accidents involved by trucks, less than 20
> percent of them are at fault by the driver of the truck. in almost every
> circumstance where there is a car or other non truck involved in an
> accident, over 86% in fact, the driver of the car is at fault for the
> accident.
>
> I am much safer hauling 40,000 lbs of Chlorine in a Semi truck than I am
in
> my full size SUV, let alone in you're battery powered honda.
>
> Think before you spew Bear..
>
> Matt
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Standing Bear [mailto:rockcast net-link.net]
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 8:23 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com; Jed Rothwell
> Subject: Re: Railroads may be a good target for fuel cell transportation
>
> On Thursday 20 December 2001 10:51 am, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> > Hydrogen fuel cells have many benefits in transportation. When the
>
> hydrogen
>
> > is derived from wind power, they do not pollute. They are far more
> > efficient than gasoline, Diesel engines and even hybrid-electric Diesel.
> > Railroads might be a promising sector to experiment with them.
> >
> > Hybrid electric Diesel-electric railroad locomotives are 32% efficient.
> > Hydrogen fuel cell locomotives would be 52% with present technology, and
>
> as
>
> > much as 69% with advanced technology. The cost of development and
> > implementation would be comparable to the change from steam to Diesel in
> > the 1940s and 50s, which was one of the most cost-effective transitions
> > in history. The fuel infrastructure would be cheaper and easier to build
> > than hydrogen gas stations for automobiles, because railroads have
> > organized fueling procedures and only a few fueling stations, since
> > trains travel thousands of miles without refueling.
> >
> > See: M. W. Wyman (Terra Genesis), S. J. Bespalko (Sandia National
> > Laboratories), The Hydrogen Fuel Cell Locomotives as National Energy
>
> Policy
>
> > Insurance,
http://www.terragenesis.com/terragenesis/Reports/TRB-LOCO.pdf]
> >
> > - Jed
>
> Jed,
> 	That also would be a good place to put our trucking
> industry.  Railroads would need to be nationalized in any event,
> as too much would be at stake should a hostile entity gain
> control of the nation's jugular by simply buying a one percent
> effective leveraged controlling interest in the railroads and shutting
> down the system during an enemy attack.  Trucks are inherently
> unsafe on our highways, although such a fuel cell system would
> work for them too.  Would rather see the trucking industry relegated
> to short hauls to areas poorly served by rail.  Would definitely save
> on wear on our interstate highway system.
> 	Would do our people good to ride on the trains again like
> we used to.  Actually see the country instead of a blurry emulsion
> of a landscape from 6 miles up.  Generate the hydrogen in nuclear
> facilities of one kind or another, don't really care which;  although
> CF, Fusion, or breeder cycle [in that order] would be my preferences.
> Only signifigant combustion products oxygen and water.  Oil vendors
> would be upset about it.  Let them!
>
> Standing Bear


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan  1 22:41:26 2002
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From: "Matthew Rogers" <matt accelnet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: a Cold Fusion Letter to ACS appears 
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 22:31:51 -0800
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Mr. Kawasaki
Thanks for the Update.

I appreciate your email newsletter, and this report.


Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: Akira Kawasaki [mailto:aki ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 2:21 AM
To: Vortex
Subject: a Cold Fusion Letter to ACS appears 


January 01, 2002

Vortex,

Here's hoping for a better year for everybody.

I would like to quote whole a letter to the Chemical & Engineering News
that appeared in the December 24, 2001 issue of the ACS magazine. It was
written by Scott Chubb, S, Szpak and P.A. Mosier. It is very good letter
for starters. I agree except for some small details.

QUOTE:
" Cold Fusion

Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons  announced in a press conference
that nuclear events can be initiated by electrochemically compressing
deuterium into the palladium lattice and that these events manifest
themselves in the form of excess enthalpy generation. The heat
generation rate was consistent with that expected for nuclear processes
taking place in a fast-breeder reactor. The mode of the announcement,
the term cold fusion, the invasion of traditional physicist's domain by
chemists, and limited disclosure of details prevented duplication.
Claims were rejected, fraud often was implied, and papers submitted for
publication were returned with inappropriate comments.
   In intervening years, Fleischmann and Pon's claims were confirmed in
many laboratories in the U.S. and abroad. Researchers report that that
excess enthalpy is generated at discrete locations randomly distributed
in time and space, helium production is proportional to to the amount of
excess heat, tritium is produced sporadically at rates about 10^4 atoms
per second, and a broad spectrum X-ray emission with recognizable peaki
at 21kev is observed.
Today, cold fusion can no longer be regarded as pathological science.
Given the wealth of experimental and theoretical information that
exists, it is surprising that the information about the subject is not
appearing in mainstream scientific journals.
   First, because of an apparent consensus to most physicists that is
based on incomplete and incorrect information, meaningful discussion of
relevant scientific issues in scientific journals never took place.
Second, as a result of this consensus, the scientific adjudication
process ceased to be self correcting. This is because scientists have
ceased to monitor experiments, and additional experiments that could
potentially verify or disprove positive cold fusion claims are not being
performed.
   We believe this situation will not change until editorial policies of
the majority of scientific journals, which currently do not allow cold
fusion papers even to be reviewed, are modified.
]S. Szpak and P.A. Mosier
San Diego, Calif.
Scott R. Chubb, Washington, D.C."
-UNQUOTE-

Dr. Storm's recently rejected paper is a victim of the existing
"consensus".

-AK-



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan  2 00:24:08 2002
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: RE: Railroads may be a good target for fuel cell transportation
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Matthew Rogers replied to standing Bear

>Bear,

That's Mr. Bear!!

>	When you post to a list, you post to all its members.

Including me.

>So your socialist tactic is to brand an entire industry as unsafe, therfore
>pushing through a reform that is more safe.
>
>When Seatbelts and Airbags were mandated by people like you, it did not make
>people safer.

I disagree with you Roger. Government has a place controlling stupid, 
greedy corporations. They built cars that were rolling tin cans with 
big engines. The government forced them in include rudimentary safety 
features. To believe otherwise is the equivalent of throwing the baby 
out with the bath water.

Socialists like Standing, OTOH, have a naive idea that the government 
can successfully manage the economy, IMHO, the history of Russia is 
proof that it can't .

>  that the cannot afford to buy a gallon of milk for
>their children ?

I agree, the poor suffer the most from Socialism

>
>In fact, Canada is ripping up thousands of miles of track that farmers use
>to get their grain to market, which the Crown sets the price, and soley
>buys. The average farmer now cannot get their grain to the storage silo's
>before the grain spoils.

This story, if true is a tribute to bureaucratic incompetence. The 
way I see it, during the American Revolution the people who wanted to 
be British moved to Canada, they have attracted people who feel the 
same way, and that is why the Canadian economy is so weak today. They 
also neglected rights that we have, like freedom to own guns and 
freedom of the press.

>
>Socialism does not work in any other country in the world, so why do you try
>to make it here ?

Socialists never cease to amaze me with the tenacity with which they 
hold to  their beliefs
>
>You are obviously not one of those people that can objectivly have a
>conversation based on facts, you take something that is pointed out to you
>as a truthful fact, and turned it into a persoanl attack.
>
>I only said you must be a socialist to believe that way, as an observation
>that I have heard the exact same arguments before. I was right.
>
>Only you can say if you feel fulfilled....
>
>Happy new year,
>
>Dear Readers,
>	Jed and I had this exchange some time ago;  now this 'Matt'
>has to pick it up.   I read Matt's letter through and after some thought
>
>  > Standing Bear


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan  2 00:24:46 2002
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 <3C30D746.151A7023 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 02:21:24 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: cyril w davson
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The above mentioned author wrote a book, the physics of the primary 
state of matter in 1955, it was published by Elverton Books has 
anyone ever heard of it? I spend several hours looking at used 
physics books sites and libraires and was unable to find any 
reference to either Mr. Davson, or his book.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan  2 07:12:42 2002
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On Wednesday 02 January 2002 01:29 am, Matthew Rogers wrote:
Matt
	Well if you post to a list, you too post to all its members, or do
you think that because your name is 'Matt' that you will get special
treatment?  But there goes you, the putrid little monopolist lackey, puking 
in your pablum again.  If you'd just stay away from those mushrooms!f  It was
you that spewed the statement that the government owns all the shipping
lines, implying the United States government.  Of course if they did, they
would be their own tax evaders.  Now it appears you want it the other
way around.  Do objectivity and truth have no value or meaning to you?
Obviousely you appear to believe that:  'the ends justify the means!'.
Now you extend your slams and labeling to include all union members.
All labor unionists are not socialists.  Be nice if they were but it just 
is'nt so.  It may come as a rude shock to you, but labeling and other
attempts at insult will come to nothing here.  Some of the people on this
list come from socialist countries that functioned very well for many
years;  some not so well.  How socialism performs in a country is as much
a function of the people of that country and how natively hard working
they are.  No governmental system will prosper with a lazy population.
None.  Examples of these populations abound and have been used by
various charlatans to criticize ideologies unjustly.
  Hear dear readers is Matt, a nascent fascist if there ever was one.
There now, see, others can play that game too.  Only 'heil matt' does'nt
seem to ring right.

Standing Bear


> Bear,
> 	When you post to a list, you post to all its members.
> The reason we have "flags of convienence" is because your socialist
> freinds, members of the trade unions representing the shipping worker,and
> their government representiatives, make it more profitable to do so. "Free
> market" is in fact "controlled Market"
>
> If you are implying that you are a truck driver, and have driven 500,000
> miles accident free, you make my point not yours. YOu were the safe driver,
> and responsable.
>
> The companies and drivers you mentioned and accidents you witnessed are
> representavive of the lack of skill and responsability you witnessed, not
> that it is inherently unsafe.
>
> So your socialist tactic is to brand an entire industry as unsafe, therfore
> pushing through a reform that is more safe.
>
> When Seatbelts and Airbags were mandated by people like you, it did not
> make people safer.
> In fact, more people died in accidents with restraints, due to higher
> speeds, due to people thinking they were safer.
>
> What will be the cost to poor people when your socialized transportation
> system costs so much, that the cannot afford to buy a gallon of milk for
> their children ?
>
> In fact, Canada is ripping up thousands of miles of track that farmers use
> to get their grain to market, which the Crown sets the price, and soley
> buys. The average farmer now cannot get their grain to the storage silo's
> before the grain spoils.
>
> Socialism does not work in any other country in the world, so why do you
> try to make it here ?
>
> You are obviously not one of those people that can objectivly have a
> conversation based on facts, you take something that is pointed out to you
> as a truthful fact, and turned it into a persoanl attack.
>
> I only said you must be a socialist to believe that way, as an observation
> that I have heard the exact same arguments before. I was right.
>
> Only you can say if you feel fulfilled....
>
> Happy new year,
> Matt
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Standing Bear [mailto:rockcast net-link.net]
> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 9:47 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Railroads may be a good target for fuel cell transportation
>
>
> Dear Readers,
> 	Jed and I had this exchange some time ago;  now this 'Matt'
> has to pick it up.   I read Matt's letter through and after some thought
> decided that its' gross ignorance speaks eloquently for itself.  The idea
> of claiming that shipping companies are creatures of the US government
> is ludicrous on its face, seeing as how most of these fly flags of
> convenience
> in order to get away from United States' regulations and safety laws not
> to dream of mentioning taxes.  I would just love to be a mouse in the
> corner in some congressional hearing room when this howler comes up
> and is closely followed up by questions from the IRS and congressional
> conspiracy to evade taxes.  That is only one item.  Read on,  Matt's letter
> is full of them.  By the way, Matt, I AM a socialist.  Does that shock you?
> Does it make you puke in your pablum?  Do you now go running to
> Alamagordo, New Mexico to denounce me and others as witches too?
> 	500,000 miles, accident free, on our highways driving
> semi-tractor trailor rigs in all weather and in all states including states
> of Mexico and provinces of Canada have taught me of the inherent
> unsafeness of truck freight hauling.  I have seen too many die right in
> front
> of me.  I have seen too many wrecks at the bottom of canyons and
> dropoffs.  Wrecks that were never even visited, they were so
> inaccessable.  I have seen the bridge over the 'Two Medicine River'
> in Montana outside the Blackfoot Indian Reserve/Reservation, where
> there is a rosary of white crosses every 10 feet for over 6 miles.  I
> have had God's hand on mine while saving the life of a careless driver
> in Chicago who pulled in front of me while descending into the city
> one dark, icy night.  I know of too many drivers who drove around
> scales because they were overweight.  I know of a company in Salt
> Lake City that professes to be pillars of their church;  It is known that
> they
> put unsafe equipment on the road;  It is known that drivers hired by them
> took illegal drugs in order to stay awake, knowing that they had
> to stay awake and drive for over 30 hours straight in order to make
> some deliveries......and keep their jobs.  It is known  this company
> refused to insure its drivers or its loads, and knowingly hired drivers
> purely for the reason that they could basically 'lie with a straight face':
>  keep fraudulent hours logs, conceal drug use, drive over hours.  It is
> known that this company had drivers follow certain routes in the
> metropolitan area of Chicago with illegal loads, promising to pay the
> tickets of those unlucky enough to be stopped.  None were, and the routes
> went right past the front of the headquarters of the Illinois State
> Police for northern Illinois.  They had a VERY large parking lot,
> and it was FULL of 'bears' (cops)!   I could go on for a VERY
> long time about this.  You see, Matt, I have experience in this
> that I seriousely doubt you have.
>
> Standing Bear
>   besides, it WAS just Jed and I talking!
>
> On Monday 31 December 2001 07:45 pm, Matthew Rogers wrote:
> > Bear,
> > 	Although this list is devoted to mind gaming out potentianl applications
> > of CF,
> > every once in a while i see you drop some personal assumption into your
> > comments that are without basis or truth.
> >
> > You must be a socialist it want to think that the government can run the
> > rail system better than it does. The government already has controlling
> > interest in almost all the shipping lines including rail, thay have
> > bought stock in them since their inception. American President Lines,
> > Matson, Union Pacific Santa FE RR, CNX, are all "owned" already by the
> > american public, through stocks and intest in other companies that they
> > cross own. Burlington Northern has the largest privately owned trucking
> > fleet in the world. In fact, most of the rail industry is at 98% or
> > higher capacity and is already looking for ways to lay more track.
> >
> > The original track laid in this country exist on right of ways that were
> > given away by the governemt to private industry to build the rails system
> > we have now.
> >
> > I can see no reason to steal it back from them to make it any more
> > efficent.
> >
> > Furthermore, The Interstate Highway system was coped from the Nazi's who
> > could mobilize troops on the highway much faster than the existing rail
> > system, and so kept the core of Germany safe from outside influence up
>
> till
>
> > the end of the war.
> >
> > The express purpose of the reason we built the Interste highway system
> > was to transfer troops across our country, and goods going to market.
> > Your Car is not part of that.
> >
> > As for being inherantly unsafe, so is flying airplanes.
> >
> > Yet the trucking industry and the airplane industry both have
> > professional people personaly responsable for their truck or plane
> > getting the cargo to its destination.
> >
> > Airplanes and trucks enjoy the lowest accident per mile of any
> > transportation. Yet fatalaties and accidents are procalimed like you to
> > be unsafe.
> >
> > In the case of trucks, of all accidents involved by trucks, less than 20
> > percent of them are at fault by the driver of the truck. in almost every
> > circumstance where there is a car or other non truck involved in an
> > accident, over 86% in fact, the driver of the car is at fault for the
> > accident.
> >
> > I am much safer hauling 40,000 lbs of Chlorine in a Semi truck than I am
>
> in
>
> > my full size SUV, let alone in you're battery powered honda.
> >
> > Think before you spew Bear..
> >
> > Matt
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Standing Bear [mailto:rockcast net-link.net]
> > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 8:23 PM
> > To: vortex-l eskimo.com; Jed Rothwell
> > Subject: Re: Railroads may be a good target for fuel cell transportation
> >
> > On Thursday 20 December 2001 10:51 am, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> > > Hydrogen fuel cells have many benefits in transportation. When the
> >
> > hydrogen
> >
> > > is derived from wind power, they do not pollute. They are far more
> > > efficient than gasoline, Diesel engines and even hybrid-electric
> > > Diesel. Railroads might be a promising sector to experiment with them.
> > >
> > > Hybrid electric Diesel-electric railroad locomotives are 32% efficient.
> > > Hydrogen fuel cell locomotives would be 52% with present technology,
> > > and
> >
> > as
> >
> > > much as 69% with advanced technology. The cost of development and
> > > implementation would be comparable to the change from steam to Diesel
> > > in the 1940s and 50s, which was one of the most cost-effective
> > > transitions in history. The fuel infrastructure would be cheaper and
> > > easier to build than hydrogen gas stations for automobiles, because
> > > railroads have organized fueling procedures and only a few fueling
> > > stations, since trains travel thousands of miles without refueling.
> > >
> > > See: M. W. Wyman (Terra Genesis), S. J. Bespalko (Sandia National
> > > Laboratories), The Hydrogen Fuel Cell Locomotives as National Energy
> >
> > Policy
> >
> > > Insurance,
>
> http://www.terragenesis.com/terragenesis/Reports/TRB-LOCO.pdf]
>
> > > - Jed
> >
> > Jed,
> > 	That also would be a good place to put our trucking
> > industry.  Railroads would need to be nationalized in any event,
> > as too much would be at stake should a hostile entity gain
> > control of the nation's jugular by simply buying a one percent
> > effective leveraged controlling interest in the railroads and shutting
> > down the system during an enemy attack.  Trucks are inherently
> > unsafe on our highways, although such a fuel cell system would
> > work for them too.  Would rather see the trucking industry relegated
> > to short hauls to areas poorly served by rail.  Would definitely save
> > on wear on our interstate highway system.
> > 	Would do our people good to ride on the trains again like
> > we used to.  Actually see the country instead of a blurry emulsion
> > of a landscape from 6 miles up.  Generate the hydrogen in nuclear
> > facilities of one kind or another, don't really care which;  although
> > CF, Fusion, or breeder cycle [in that order] would be my preferences.
> > Only signifigant combustion products oxygen and water.  Oil vendors
> > would be upset about it.  Let them!
> >
> > Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan  2 12:00:21 2002
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Fascist Airplanes and Sentient Cactuses have returned...
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:06:12 -0500
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Hmmm.... Perhaps Matt and Standing might continue
things on Vortex B-L, where such things belong.
Or are you both the same person and simply having
a chuckle at our expense (smile).

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan  2 12:53:26 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Nice Website!
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:46:28 -0500
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For those unfamilar,

http://www.futureenergies.com/

A slash style blog for the new energy scene.
Sadly, very little commentary. A growing scene?

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan  3 01:15:32 2002
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: The Beck circuit
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  Several years ago at the Global Sciences Conference I met Bob Beck. 
Mr. Beck is capable of building electronic circuits and after coming 
across the article by the two researchers at the Einstein Institute, 
built the circuit and used it to relieve himself of a chronic 
disease. I would love to do double blind tests to prove that this 
circuit works, but I can't afford it and if I were to do something 
like this in the United States, I would probably find myself in 
prison. Africa on the other hand, is a different matter. So if any of 
you are suffering from blood borne parasites, you should consider 
building one. For full details see 
http://www.explorepub.com/explore/Articles/Beck/HIV_Article.html .
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan  3 01:17:27 2002
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Subject: on bureaucracy
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Standing Bear posted

>On Wednesday 02 January 2002 01:29 am, Matthew Rogers wrote:
>Matt
>	Well if you post to a list, you too post to all its members, or do
>you think that because your name is 'Matt' that you will get special
>treatment?  But there goes you, the putrid little monopolist lackey, puking
>in your pablum again.

The trouble with you Standing is you don't trust business owners, and 
I sympathize with that feeling. Business owners are greedy, narrow 
minded, short sighted, and so on.

The trouble with Socialism is that you substitute bureaucrats for the 
owners. The trouble with bureaucrats is that they are all of the 
above, only worse. You have heard about the environmental problems in 
the former Soviet Union? How about the violation of basic human 
rights? How about their standard of living?

At least you can reason with owners and appeal to their self interest 
or greed. Bureaucrats, OTOH, have only agenda, covering their own 
behinds. That means a blind adherence to the rules, no matter what. 
You can fantasize about socialist utopias all you want, but the 
bottom line is that every  time they have been tried, they have 
resulted in failure.

Furthermore, I am no fan of unions either. I realize that the workers 
have taken a big hit over the past twenty years. But the economy is 
strong. A rising tide lifts all boats, unfortunately knowledge 
workers have benefited more than others. I have no answer to that, 
other than to recommend life long education. We still have the power 
of the vote, and there's more poor people than rich ones.
>


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan  3 09:17:58 2002
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On Thursday 03 January 2002 04:15 am, thomas malloy wrote:
> Standing Bear posted
>
> >On Wednesday 02 January 2002 01:29 am, Matthew Rogers wrote:
> >Matt
> >	Well if you post to a list, you too post to all its members, or do
> >you think that because your name is 'Matt' that you will get special
> >treatment?  But there goes you, the putrid little monopolist lackey,
> > puking in your pablum again.
>
> The trouble with you Standing is you don't trust business owners, and
> I sympathize with that feeling. Business owners are greedy, narrow
> minded, short sighted, and so on.
>
> The trouble with Socialism is that you substitute bureaucrats for the
> owners. The trouble with bureaucrats is that they are all of the
> above, only worse. You have heard about the environmental problems in
> the former Soviet Union? How about the violation of basic human
> rights? How about their standard of living?
>
> At least you can reason with owners and appeal to their self interest
> or greed. Bureaucrats, OTOH, have only agenda, covering their own
> behinds. That means a blind adherence to the rules, no matter what.
> You can fantasize about socialist utopias all you want, but the
> bottom line is that every  time they have been tried, they have
> resulted in failure.
>
> Furthermore, I am no fan of unions either. I realize that the workers
> have taken a big hit over the past twenty years. But the economy is
> strong. A rising tide lifts all boats, unfortunately knowledge
> workers have benefited more than others. I have no answer to that,
> other than to recommend life long education. We still have the power
> of the vote, and there's more poor people than rich ones.

Tom,
	Hate to have to pursue this thread any further off track of this
list than it has.  This list has grown very quiet whilst this 'debate' has
gone on.  Hope I am not part of the cause of it.
	I feel that one more point must be made, however.  The common
thread in all of this is the fallabilities of human nature.  Like I stated 
previosely, no ideology can withstand laziness and be prosperous.  But
then do we define success only in materialistic ways?  That would be
very shallow indeed.  The Soviets, for all their failures, did support
athletics and culture.  Since 1989, their record in the former Soviet
area has been less than stellar..
	Point well taken about substituting bureaucrats for owners.
however, let us also not forget about 'company bureaucrats'.  
These can be even more unforgiving than government functionaries,
as their only constituency is the corporation's stockholders.  In reality,
stockholders in many corporations are marginalized in favor of
management cliques that hold the proxies and other instruments
of control.  So in fact one has a chorce, either deal with a government
functionary that can be appealed over in our society in most cases,
or deal instead with a soulless corporate bureaucrat around whom
is usually no real recourse.  How do we get from the mom and pop
store owner on the corner (gone) and the corner gas station (also
gone) to the corporate bureaucrat......read on!

You see,
all economic structures are dynamic and tend to prosper or fail.  The
end result of laissez-faire capitalism is that these dynamics, observed
as cut-throat and predatory competition, will eventually result in
cartels and monopolies.  Starting in some sectors, the monopolies will
spread to other sectors.  A critical mass will accumulate in some
controlling economic sector, such as the banking industry.  Like a
galactic black hole, this combination will overtake the others until
very few independant 'players' indeed will be in the marketplace.
This has already happened to our Federal Reserve System.  Long
before the denouement takes place, the resulting unfeeling corporate
bureaucracy will be clearly evident.  I have seen the activities of
these bureaucracies up close, and the styles and thinking pattern
of private monopolistic bureaucrats are very much like government
ones in some ways.  They all preserve their careers first.  Blind
adherance to rules is more extreme in the case of the private
bureaucrat though.  You see the private bureaucrat has no protection
of law, and must obey or lose his 'little empire' very quickly.  You
notice that most of the successful sexual harrassment suits are 
brought against errant government officials and not private ones.
People in business know that the hand of retribution will get them in
the end and usually do not file such cases.  Erin Brockovich is
the rare exception rather than the rule.  The rule looks more like
the Karen Silkwood case, which was covered up until a series of
media programs a few years ago.  Now it is forgotten again.  
	I know also of oil industry executives that used their vice presidents
as exactly that.  One worthy in Tulsa, a president of an oil exploration
firm, made his vice presidents his homosexual 'bitches', catering to
ALL his 'needs' as he saw fit.  These 'vice-presidents', in their
turn were very overbearing to their underlings.  I know of a computer
peripherals company that had a 2 year campaign to steal the 
technology of a large competitor.  They hired sexy secretaries and
'administrative assistants' who were picked soley on their beauty
and willingness to do anything for the company yet had no other
salable skill.  Their job was to lure field engineers from the competitor
away from rented equipment that they were servicing so that the
exposed technology and spare parts could 'come up missing' in
the company's lab where the parts were reverse engineered.   It took
outside law enforcement over three years to get this corporation into
court, and a couple more years for an appeals court to uphold a
40 million dollar fine against that company for espionage and theft.
So much for corporate decency.

	 Don't say 'illegal' in that city.  Corruption of private industry there 
extended to an 'industry association' that effectively controlled politics in 
that city.  Political contributions bought officials who overlooked many
sins.  One soul, a potential witness to illegal gambling allegedly taking
place in the top stories of a high rise headquarters for the largest 
bank in Tulsa at the time, committed suicide in the middle of one of
the largest streets in the south part of the city, a 6 lane street.  He
did this by shooting himself through the heart six times with a single
shot bolt action 30-06 rifle having a 36 inch barrel.  The rifle was
evidently found at the scene, and that was the coroner's official
ruling.  Houses of prostitution operated openly on the short north
side of the city. One would have to live with a basket over one's
head not to see it.  But they were poor black women who had no other
way of making a living, and the houses were abandoned shacks
claimed by no one.  This being a 'right to work' state, there was no
welfare as such, and those folks were on their own.  The police could
have arrested those women, but then would havehad to feed them and
house them.  This would have cost the city tax money and angered the trade 
association bosses who did not want to pay more taxes, and some of whose 
members who used the services of those women.

There is no perfect system.  I am old enough to know that.  Unchecked
socialism has its faults too.  Laissez-Faire capitalism is the cruelest of
all, for it devalues human life and considers work of no value.  The
best system is a limited socialism where the government, a democracy
or our federal model, controls vital utility sectors of the economy and
provides a basic social safety net and universal health care.  Back this
up with a stout bankruptcy law on the Jacksonian model of 1836, and
robust anti monopoly laws.  To stop slave goods from running out of the
market place the products of honest workers, a value added tax 
should be in place indexed to size of the entities that produce the
slave goods.......like Chinese goods as a perfect example where the
real corporate owners of the manufacturers is the Poeple's Army of
China.   Every buyer of those goods is buying arms to be later used
against the sons of the free.  There is a place for capitalism and the
creativity that small scale enterprises encourage;  but, like credit,
it is a very bad master and needs to be controlled.  Look what happened
to the computer gaming industry, how it was and how it is today.  Larger
is NOT better.

Enough rant for now.

Standing Bear
 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan  3 14:49:44 2002
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Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 17:46:28 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: New geothermal "tower" proposed
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See:

E. Baard, "Electricity From Earth's Core," Wired News, January 2002

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,48947,00.html

See end of article: Industry experts and DoE express no interest in 
proposal . . .

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan  3 15:37:26 2002
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Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 16:38:34 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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I'm always amazed how people who should understand science and
engineering, miss the obvious.  As the skeptics point out in the
article, only a limited rate of heat extraction can be drawn from rock
because of its poor conductivity and low heat capacity.  The skeptics
are correct, the method would work for only a limited time at any one
site and then would have to be moved, at great expense.  LANL explored
dry-hole heat extraction in an extinct volcano and found success
required a large region of rock be involved in the extraction
process.  This involved pumping water into fissures between two wells
that were created by applying high pressure.  Unfortunately, rock that
has never seen water contains many water soluble impurities that
destroy the pumps.  As a result, the method has its problems.  The
method proposed by Baard uses only a small region of rock with no
attempt to increase the volume or surface area.  Hence, this method is
doomed to fail, not because skeptics are being unfair, but because
considerable experience exists to show its limitations.

Regards,
Ed

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> See:
>
> E. Baard, "Electricity From Earth's Core," Wired News, January 2002
>
> http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,48947,00.html
>
> See end of article: Industry experts and DoE express no interest in
> proposal . . .
>
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan  3 16:36:21 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: New geothermal "tower" proposed
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 11:28:53 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Thu, 03 Jan 2002 16:38:34 -0600:

>I'm always amazed how people who should understand science and
>engineering, miss the obvious.  As the skeptics point out in the
>article, only a limited rate of heat extraction can be drawn from rock
>because of its poor conductivity and low heat capacity.  The skeptics
>are correct, the method would work for only a limited time at any one
>site and then would have to be moved, at great expense.

The expense may not be so great, if the only requirement is a bore hole,
however I am still puzzled by the apparent lack of a heat sink for the
"waste" heat (or is this dumped at the surface?).
I do agree however that hot dry rock would be a poor place to put it.
Somewhere where subterranean hot water existed might make a better
choice. 
[snip]
>> E. Baard, "Electricity From Earth's Core," Wired News, January 2002
>>
>> http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,48947,00.html
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan  4 07:18:02 2002
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Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 10:14:29 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: New geothermal "tower" proposed
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>I'm always amazed how people who should understand science and
>engineering, miss the obvious.

Are you certain they missed this? They have spent a great deal of money on 
the project already, and I expect they have consulted with various experts. 
If the problem was this obvious, I expect they would have addressed it by 
now. I will grant, some projects do proceed for a long time even though 
there are obvious defects, but they are usually not technical defects. They 
are usually in marketing or -- people make products that cannot be sold, or 
cannot be made resilient or idiot proof enough for actual use.


>As the skeptics point out in the article, only a limited rate of heat 
>extraction can be drawn from rock because of its poor conductivity and low 
>heat capacity.  The skeptics are correct, the method would work for only a 
>limited time at any one site and then would have to be moved, at great expense.

As Robin van Spaandonk points out, this may not be such a great expense. 
They might plan for it. Perhaps they could dig two pits some distance apart 
from one another, and move the tower between them every year or two.

I am not suggesting the "skeptics" are always wrong, by any means, but 
sometimes they come up with a legitimate problem but they overlook a 
relatively simple solution to it.

- Jed

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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:02:18 -0500
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On Friday 04 January 2002 10:14 am, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Edmund Storms wrote:
> >I'm always amazed how people who should understand science and
> >engineering, miss the obvious.
>
> Are you certain they missed this? They have spent a great deal of money on
> the project already, and I expect they have consulted with various experts.
> If the problem was this obvious, I expect they would have addressed it by
> now. I will grant, some projects do proceed for a long time even though
> there are obvious defects, but they are usually not technical defects. They
> are usually in marketing or -- people make products that cannot be sold, or
> cannot be made resilient or idiot proof enough for actual use.
>
> >As the skeptics point out in the article, only a limited rate of heat
> >extraction can be drawn from rock because of its poor conductivity and low
> >heat capacity.  The skeptics are correct, the method would work for only a
> >limited time at any one site and then would have to be moved, at great
> > expense.
>
> As Robin van Spaandonk points out, this may not be such a great expense.
> They might plan for it. Perhaps they could dig two pits some distance apart
> from one another, and move the tower between them every year or two.
>
> I am not suggesting the "skeptics" are always wrong, by any means, but
> sometimes they come up with a legitimate problem but they overlook a
> relatively simple solution to it.
>
> - Jed

Too many skeptics, not enough creativity.....................ugh!
How about the mindset that equates the heat content in the
rocks at depth as similar logically to the water table under
stress of a well sunk into it.  At the point of penetration of the
well into the water table, as the well is 'used', a 'cone of
depression' of the water table will form at that site.  This cone
will be in some proportion to the pumping rate.  It the pumping rate
is too hight, the cone will sink to the well point and the well 
will become intermittant at that flow rate.  Lets call that rate the
limit of flow for that well.  If the pump rate slows, water from the
surrounding area will begin to shrink the cone of depression
based on the void ratio of the underground structure and the
permeability of it.  
	In similar fashion, if heat is extracted from a geothermal
system,  a sphere of cooling will appear at the extraction site.
Too much extraction and efficiency of system will suffer.  At some
point, this too, just like the water well example, will become intermittent.
That point will be the producing capacity of the system.  If extraction
is slowed, the sphere of cooling will reheat based on the conduction
and convection capabilities of the substructures.  The idea is 
obtaining a sustainable heat flow of whatever size for that well
system.  All other considerations are economic as far as
justifiable expense to obtain certain quantities of energy.

Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan  4 13:56:14 2002
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Jan 04, 2002
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:34:39 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 4 Jan 02   Washington, DC

1. STOCKPILE RELIABILITY: INSPECTOR GENERAL WANTS MORE LAB TESTS.
Underground testing of nuclear warheads ended in 1992, but each
year DOE must certify to the President that the stockpile is safe
and reliable.  Certification is based on laboratory testing of
individual components, but a new IG report points to significant
delays in the test schedule.  This is unfortunate.  It not only
raises questions about certification, it has prompted calls for a
resumption of underground testing, which would be a huge mistake. 
The Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty may be dead (WN 17 Sep 99), but
no country on Earth is conducting actual detonations.  Why would
the United States want to set off a resumption of testing?

2. TERRORISM: FEAR PROMPTS HOARDING OF CRITICAL SUBSTANCES.  In
the aftermath of the anthrax mailings, there was panic buying of
Cipro, an oral antibiotic.  Now, as concern grows over terrorist
attacks on nuclear power plants, people have begun stockpiling
potassium iodide (KI).  Radioactive iodine, particularly I-125,
which concentrates in the thyroid, is a major hazard in reactor
accidents.  The treatment is to flood the body with the stable
isotope, I-127, by taking potassium iodide tablets immediately
after exposure.  Now the federal government is accumulating a
national stockpile to be deployed in an emergency, something it
promised to do 22 years ago after the Three-Mile Island accident.

3. AIRPORT LIE DETECTOR: AT FIRST BLUSH, IT'S A DUMB IDEA.  The
system is supposed to scan the faces of passengers at the check-
in counter with a high-definition thermal imaging camera while
they answer questions.  The claim is that blood rushes to the eye
area when people lie.  That may be, but your face will also flush
when you run three miles from Concourse A to Concourse F, only to
find the gate has been changed.  On the other hand, you may turn
pale if you see fuses dangling from another passenger's shoes. In
short, it will work as well as a polygraph, which is not at all.

4. HOMESTAKE GOLD: A MINE IS A TERRIBLE THING TO WASTE.  Tacked
on to the 2002 appropriation bill for the Department of Defense,
is a provision relieving the Homestake Mining Company of any
legal liability it might have for environmental damage over the
125 history of its gold mine in the Black Hills of South Dakota.
In exchange, Homestake agreed not to flood the mine when it
closes later this month, leaving it available for use as an
underground physics lab, operated by the National Science
Foundation.  The lab will be 8,000 ft underground, making it the
best shielded laboratory in the world for neutrino studies, and a
major advance in sensitivity in the search for proton decay. 
Flooding the mine would presumably protect Homestake by covering
up environmental problems.  While it is certainly a sweetheart
deal for Homestake, it is a great bargain for American science.   

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY and THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
American Physical Society or the University, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan  4 15:35:19 2002
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 18:30:55 EST
Subject: ZPT now on line at http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html
To: cefouse alltel.net, EFOUCHE@satx.rr.com (E.F.), JRG2223@aol.com,
        pgluck dntcj.ro, HALFOX@aol.com, HaraldReissHD@aol.com,
        hheffner mtaonline.net, JedRothwell@infinite-energy.com,
        little earthtech.org, editor@infinite-energy.com, mkaczey@charter.net,
        richard hellen-uk.freeserve.co.uk, ron.evans@baesystems.com,
        Scottychubb cs.com, sdodson@edisonmission.com,
        storms2 ix.netcom.com (Edmund Storms), storms2@ix.netcom.com,
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--part1_42.2011a49d.2967952f_boundary
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A good portion of my ZPT CD is now avaliable for free on line.

Please review it and forward it to friends.  If any features do not work 
inform  fznidarsic aol.com.

Enjoy.  Full featured (high bandwith) CDs are avaliable at 
http://www.infinite-energy.com

 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html">zero point technologies
</A> 

Frank Znidarsic   http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html

--part1_42.2011a49d.2967952f_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>A good portion of my ZPT CD is now avaliable for free on line.<BR>
<BR>
Please review it and forward it to friends.&nbsp; If any features do not work inform&nbsp; fznidarsic aol.com.<BR>
<BR>
Enjoy.&nbsp; Full featured (high bandwith) CDs are avaliable at http://www.infinite-energy.com<BR>
<BR>
 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html">zero point technologies
</A> <BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic&nbsp;&nbsp; http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html</FONT></HTML>

--part1_42.2011a49d.2967952f_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan  4 19:27:32 2002
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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 22:32:28 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
cc: cefouse alltel.net, "E.F." <EFOUCHE@satx.rr.com>, JRG2223@aol.com,
        pgluck dntcj.ro, HALFOX@aol.com, HaraldReissHD@aol.com,
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Subject: Re: ZPT now on line at http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html
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	Dear Frank,

	Can you please show us how to do real world "nuts and bolts"
reduction to practice example of ZPE that will allow extraction of a
useful amount of energy?

	I do not have browser based E mail.... can you please let us know
in ASCII?

		Thank you,


				John Schnurer


On Fri, 4 Jan 2002 FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:

> A good portion of my ZPT CD is now avaliable for free on line.
> 
> Please review it and forward it to friends.  If any features do not work 
> inform  fznidarsic aol.com.
> 
> Enjoy.  Full featured (high bandwith) CDs are avaliable at 
> http://www.infinite-energy.com
> 
>  <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html">zero point technologies
> </A> 
> 
> Frank Znidarsic   http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan  5 00:58:50 2002
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Subject: msnp 32 dll  IS MISSING  vredir.vxd  and  dfs.vxd are also (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 03:54:36 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: msnp 32 dll  IS MISSING  vredir.vxd  and  dfs.vxd are also


	Oh woe.

	I have the WIN 98 CD


	PLEASE:

	Does anyone wish to help a rank novice in replacing the files or
whatever they are?  

	The message tells me:

	The two files are referred to by SYSTEM.INI 
	BUT IT DOES NOT FIND THEM

	
	
	And the message also tells me "Microsoft Network" is misssing.


	Is it possible to just replace the whole shooting match 
	of Windows 98?  The CD is a borrowed CD.......  will it ask me for
		some numbers I do not have? 

	I have managed to figure out how to un-install and install the
parts the menus offet me... such as screen savers .... but I do not know
how to ask it to do a specific fix it or replace it.

	The last bit of the puzzle is I have 4.7 Netscape CD ROM... 
	which I wish to use .... and .... I am also told that SOMEWHERE I
will be able to do the stuff below....... which is what got me here in the
first place .......:


		THIS STUFF:

	
1.      Go to the Start menu and select Settings, then Control Panels.
Double
click on the Network icon.

2.      You should be at the Network window, and TCP/IP should be listed
in the
protocol box. Click on TCP/IP and then click the Properties button. If you
have
multiple TCP/IP entries, click on the one pointing to the dial-up adapter
then
click on the Properties button.

3.      Click the Wins Config tab at the top of the window. Make sure
"Disable
WINS resolution" is checked.

4. click on OK, then click on OK again. Restart the computer.

Open up the dial-up networking folder. Create a new connection, with the
phone number 730-1825. Click on connect. Use herman for the username, then
your password for the password. 



	Any help?   Basically the instructions above are nearly foreign
language to me.... I can not understand what is required of me.


	
			Thanks


	John :duh: Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan  5 01:01:12 2002
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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 04:08:36 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: msnp 32 dll  IS MISSING  vredir.vxd  and  dfs.vxd are also (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 03:54:36 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: msnp 32 dll  IS MISSING  vredir.vxd  and  dfs.vxd are also


	Oh woe.

	I have the WIN 98 CD


	PLEASE:

	Does anyone wish to help a rank novice in replacing the files or
whatever they are?  

	The message tells me:

	The two files are referred to by SYSTEM.INI 
	BUT IT DOES NOT FIND THEM

	
	
	And the message also tells me "Microsoft Network" is misssing.


	Is it possible to just replace the whole shooting match 
	of Windows 98?  The CD is a borrowed CD.......  will it ask me for
		some numbers I do not have? 

	I have managed to figure out how to un-install and install the
parts the menus offet me... such as screen savers .... but I do not know
how to ask it to do a specific fix it or replace it.

	The last bit of the puzzle is I have 4.7 Netscape CD ROM... 
	which I wish to use .... and .... I am also told that SOMEWHERE I
will be able to do the stuff below....... which is what got me here in the
first place .......:


		THIS STUFF:

	
1.      Go to the Start menu and select Settings, then Control Panels.
Double
click on the Network icon.

2.      You should be at the Network window, and TCP/IP should be listed
in the
protocol box. Click on TCP/IP and then click the Properties button. If you
have
multiple TCP/IP entries, click on the one pointing to the dial-up adapter
then
click on the Properties button.

3.      Click the Wins Config tab at the top of the window. Make sure
"Disable
WINS resolution" is checked.

4. click on OK, then click on OK again. Restart the computer.

Open up the dial-up networking folder. Create a new connection, with the
phone number 730-1825. Click on connect. Use herman for the username, then
your password for the password. 



	Any help?   Basically the instructions above are nearly foreign
language to me.... I can not understand what is required of me.


	
			Thanks


	John :duh: Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan  5 07:28:14 2002
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Message-ID: <3C370DC9.CE958E9F ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 08:29:29 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: msnp 32 dll  IS MISSING  vredir.vxd  and  dfs.vxd are also (fwd)
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020105040355.11751D-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
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Dear John,
Get yourself a Mac and you will have none of these problems.
Ed

John Schnurer wrote:

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 03:54:36 -0500 (EST)
> From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
> To: Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
> Subject: msnp 32 dll  IS MISSING  vredir.vxd  and  dfs.vxd are also
>
>         Oh woe.
>
>         I have the WIN 98 CD
>
>         PLEASE:
>
>         Does anyone wish to help a rank novice in replacing the files or
> whatever they are?
>
>         The message tells me:
>
>         The two files are referred to by SYSTEM.INI
>         BUT IT DOES NOT FIND THEM
>
>
>
>         And the message also tells me "Microsoft Network" is misssing.
>
>         Is it possible to just replace the whole shooting match
>         of Windows 98?  The CD is a borrowed CD.......  will it ask me for
>                 some numbers I do not have?
>
>         I have managed to figure out how to un-install and install the
> parts the menus offet me... such as screen savers .... but I do not know
> how to ask it to do a specific fix it or replace it.
>
>         The last bit of the puzzle is I have 4.7 Netscape CD ROM...
>         which I wish to use .... and .... I am also told that SOMEWHERE I
> will be able to do the stuff below....... which is what got me here in the
> first place .......:
>
>                 THIS STUFF:
>
>
> 1.      Go to the Start menu and select Settings, then Control Panels.
> Double
> click on the Network icon.
>
> 2.      You should be at the Network window, and TCP/IP should be listed
> in the
> protocol box. Click on TCP/IP and then click the Properties button. If you
> have
> multiple TCP/IP entries, click on the one pointing to the dial-up adapter
> then
> click on the Properties button.
>
> 3.      Click the Wins Config tab at the top of the window. Make sure
> "Disable
> WINS resolution" is checked.
>
> 4. click on OK, then click on OK again. Restart the computer.
>
> Open up the dial-up networking folder. Create a new connection, with the
> phone number 730-1825. Click on connect. Use herman for the username, then
> your password for the password.
>
>         Any help?   Basically the instructions above are nearly foreign
> language to me.... I can not understand what is required of me.
>
>
>                         Thanks
>
>         John :duh: Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan  5 08:07:09 2002
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: msnp 32 dll  IS MISSING  vredir.vxd  and  dfs.vxd are also (fwd)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 11:07:00 -0500
X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.3.1]
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020105040355.11751D-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
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notice somebody said get yourself a Mac.  You could also go to
Linux.  There you would not have to worry about microsoft.  I would
worry about files having to do with browsers and e-mail with any
name sounding like re-direct.  Just WHO is your stuff being re-DIrected
TOO???!!   Alternatively, you might not want to use Microsoft Network
MSN, as they require (or will) their 'passport', which is a collection
of personal data on you to be sold to any mailing list vendor with a
few bucks ('commercial business partners' according to the sop
'privacy statement').  If I sound hard boiled cynical, it is because I
have probably been around these crooks too long and had to dig
too much of thier crap out of hidden windows files in  out of the way
or hidden windows directories. 

Standing Bear




On Saturday 05 January 2002 04:04 am, John Schnurer wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 03:54:36 -0500 (EST)
> From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
> To: Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
> Subject: msnp 32 dll  IS MISSING  vredir.vxd  and  dfs.vxd are also
>
>
> 	Oh woe.
>
> 	I have the WIN 98 CD
>
>
> 	PLEASE:
>
> 	Does anyone wish to help a rank novice in replacing the files or
> whatever they are?
>
> 	The message tells me:
>
> 	The two files are referred to by SYSTEM.INI
> 	BUT IT DOES NOT FIND THEM
>
>
>
> 	And the message also tells me "Microsoft Network" is misssing.
>
>
> 	Is it possible to just replace the whole shooting match
> 	of Windows 98?  The CD is a borrowed CD.......  will it ask me for
> 		some numbers I do not have?
>
> 	I have managed to figure out how to un-install and install the
> parts the menus offet me... such as screen savers .... but I do not know
> how to ask it to do a specific fix it or replace it.
>
> 	The last bit of the puzzle is I have 4.7 Netscape CD ROM...
> 	which I wish to use .... and .... I am also told that SOMEWHERE I
> will be able to do the stuff below....... which is what got me here in the
> first place .......:
>
>
> 		THIS STUFF:
>
>
> 1.      Go to the Start menu and select Settings, then Control Panels.
> Double
> click on the Network icon.
>
> 2.      You should be at the Network window, and TCP/IP should be listed
> in the
> protocol box. Click on TCP/IP and then click the Properties button. If you
> have
> multiple TCP/IP entries, click on the one pointing to the dial-up adapter
> then
> click on the Properties button.
>
> 3.      Click the Wins Config tab at the top of the window. Make sure
> "Disable
> WINS resolution" is checked.
>
> 4. click on OK, then click on OK again. Restart the computer.
>
> Open up the dial-up networking folder. Create a new connection, with the
> phone number 730-1825. Click on connect. Use herman for the username, then
> your password for the password.
>
>
>
> 	Any help?   Basically the instructions above are nearly foreign
> language to me.... I can not understand what is required of me.
>
>
>
> 			Thanks
>
>
> 	John :duh: Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan  5 08:50:35 2002
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From: "Joe Thomas" <JThomas transmutation.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020105040642.11751I-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: msnp 32 dll  IS MISSING  vredir.vxd  and  dfs.vxd are also (fwd)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 09:42:42 -0700
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Hello John.

Since you are using Windows98, you may be able to reinstall the missing
files simply by using the built-in features of Windows98.

You click on the Start Button, and then go to Programs, Accessories, System
Tools, System Information.  Or run "msinfo32" from the Run utility.

Once you have the System Information windows displayed, click on the Tools
menu and select the System File Checker.  There you select the lower option
to extract a file from your installation CD, or CAB files (usually loaded on
your hard drive in C:\Windows\Options\CAB Files).  Enter the name of the
file that you need to restore, (e.g. msnp32.dll) and click on the Start
button.  You will have to repeat this for file you are missing because it
will only do this one file at a time.  Do not restart your computer until
your have restored al the files that are being reported as missing.

I hope this helps.

Joe Thomas

View the NEW Reality!  See it at http://www.transmutation.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 02:08 AM
Subject: msnp 32 dll IS MISSING vredir.vxd and dfs.vxd are also (fwd)


>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 03:54:36 -0500 (EST)
> From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
> To: Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
> Subject: msnp 32 dll  IS MISSING  vredir.vxd  and  dfs.vxd are also
>
>
> Oh woe.
>
> I have the WIN 98 CD
>
>
> PLEASE:
>
> Does anyone wish to help a rank novice in replacing the files or
> whatever they are?
>
> The message tells me:
>
> The two files are referred to by SYSTEM.INI
> BUT IT DOES NOT FIND THEM
>
>
>
> And the message also tells me "Microsoft Network" is misssing.
>
>
> Is it possible to just replace the whole shooting match
> of Windows 98?  The CD is a borrowed CD.......  will it ask me for
> some numbers I do not have?
>
> I have managed to figure out how to un-install and install the
> parts the menus offet me... such as screen savers .... but I do not know
> how to ask it to do a specific fix it or replace it.
>
> The last bit of the puzzle is I have 4.7 Netscape CD ROM...
> which I wish to use .... and .... I am also told that SOMEWHERE I
> will be able to do the stuff below....... which is what got me here in the
> first place .......:
>
>
> THIS STUFF:
>
>
> 1.      Go to the Start menu and select Settings, then Control Panels.
> Double
> click on the Network icon.
>
> 2.      You should be at the Network window, and TCP/IP should be listed
> in the
> protocol box. Click on TCP/IP and then click the Properties button. If you
> have
> multiple TCP/IP entries, click on the one pointing to the dial-up adapter
> then
> click on the Properties button.
>
> 3.      Click the Wins Config tab at the top of the window. Make sure
> "Disable
> WINS resolution" is checked.
>
> 4. click on OK, then click on OK again. Restart the computer.
>
> Open up the dial-up networking folder. Create a new connection, with the
> phone number 730-1825. Click on connect. Use herman for the username, then
> your password for the password.
>
>
>
> Any help?   Basically the instructions above are nearly foreign
> language to me.... I can not understand what is required of me.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> John :duh: Schnurer
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan  5 10:17:17 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: msnp 32 dll  IS MISSING  vredir.vxd  and  dfs.vxd are also (fwd)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 13:23:49 -0500
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Hi John.

Those instructions below basically tell you how
to partially configure networking for Win98. I fear
that more instructions will not be of much help to 
you, as if you are unfamiliar with such terminology
as "start menu" and "Wins Config tab" you will be
just as confused by whatever we write here. What you
need is for someone to sit down with you and SHOW
you what these things mean. Then written instructions
like what we can provide here will be of help...

The best advice I can give you now, is that in order to
get online with win98 you need to have both a modem
and networking installed. Those missing files suggest
that networking is not fully installed, for whatever
reason. Replacing a few files is not going to help
you here, like most error messages it's merely
indicative of a larger problem which needs addressing.
What you need is to get networking installed and
configured properly. Spend a couple bucks and get
one of those Dummy books, or better still give 20 bucks
to the teenager down the street ( you know the one,
the skinny pale kid with the trenchcoat and the Manga
t-shirts ) and let him do it. 

K.

PS: Or you could get Linux, or a Mac, and have everything
work the first time and never have another computer problem
ever again. Ever. Yup, it's like the OS kind of just
grabs the CPU by the scruff of the neck, and sez 
"Yo Bitch! Now you be working with a def dope crazy
fly OS! Word up." or some such thing. And there you
go.



-----Original Message-----
From: John Schnurer [mailto:herman antioch-college.edu]
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 4:04 AM
To: Vortex
Subject: msnp 32 dll IS MISSING vredir.vxd and dfs.vxd are also (fwd)




---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 03:54:36 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: msnp 32 dll  IS MISSING  vredir.vxd  and  dfs.vxd are also


	Oh woe.

	I have the WIN 98 CD


	PLEASE:

	Does anyone wish to help a rank novice in replacing the files or
whatever they are?  

	The message tells me:

	The two files are referred to by SYSTEM.INI 
	BUT IT DOES NOT FIND THEM

	
	
	And the message also tells me "Microsoft Network" is misssing.


	Is it possible to just replace the whole shooting match 
	of Windows 98?  The CD is a borrowed CD.......  will it ask me for
		some numbers I do not have? 

	I have managed to figure out how to un-install and install the
parts the menus offet me... such as screen savers .... but I do not know
how to ask it to do a specific fix it or replace it.

	The last bit of the puzzle is I have 4.7 Netscape CD ROM... 
	which I wish to use .... and .... I am also told that SOMEWHERE I
will be able to do the stuff below....... which is what got me here in the
first place .......:


		THIS STUFF:

	
1.      Go to the Start menu and select Settings, then Control Panels.
Double
click on the Network icon.

2.      You should be at the Network window, and TCP/IP should be listed
in the
protocol box. Click on TCP/IP and then click the Properties button. If you
have
multiple TCP/IP entries, click on the one pointing to the dial-up adapter
then
click on the Properties button.

3.      Click the Wins Config tab at the top of the window. Make sure
"Disable
WINS resolution" is checked.

4. click on OK, then click on OK again. Restart the computer.

Open up the dial-up networking folder. Create a new connection, with the
phone number 730-1825. Click on connect. Use herman for the username, then
your password for the password. 



	Any help?   Basically the instructions above are nearly foreign
language to me.... I can not understand what is required of me.


	
			Thanks


	John :duh: Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan  5 13:36:11 2002
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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 15:19:04 -0500 (EST)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: msnp 32 dll  IS MISSING  vredir.vxd  and  dfs.vxd are also (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <200201051603.g05G3la77864 mail4.mx.voyager.net>
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	Dear Standing

	Does this mean I can just ignore this and my browser should
still work?
	
	Can you let me know how to take the files I need off the CD and
put them into-onto the sytem?

qPlease?

On Sat, 5 Jan 2002, Standing Bear wrote:

> notice somebody said get yourself a Mac.  You could also go to
> Linux.  There you would not have to worry about microsoft.  I would
> worry about files having to do with browsers and e-mail with any
> name sounding like re-direct.  Just WHO is your stuff being re-DIrected
> TOO???!!   Alternatively, you might not want to use Microsoft Network
> MSN, as they require (or will) their 'passport', which is a collection
> of personal data on you to be sold to any mailing list vendor with a
> few bucks ('commercial business partners' according to the sop
> 'privacy statement').  If I sound hard boiled cynical, it is because I
> have probably been around these crooks too long and had to dig
> too much of thier crap out of hidden windows files in  out of the way
> or hidden windows directories. 
> 
> Standing Bear
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Saturday 05 January 2002 04:04 am, John Schnurer wrote:
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 03:54:36 -0500 (EST)
> > From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
> > To: Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
> > Subject: msnp 32 dll  IS MISSING  vredir.vxd  and  dfs.vxd are also
> >
> >
> > 	Oh woe.
> >
> > 	I have the WIN 98 CD
> >
> >
> > 	PLEASE:
> >
> > 	Does anyone wish to help a rank novice in replacing the files or
> > whatever they are?
> >
> > 	The message tells me:
> >
> > 	The two files are referred to by SYSTEM.INI
> > 	BUT IT DOES NOT FIND THEM
> >
> >
> >
> > 	And the message also tells me "Microsoft Network" is misssing.
> >
> >
> > 	Is it possible to just replace the whole shooting match
> > 	of Windows 98?  The CD is a borrowed CD.......  will it ask me for
> > 		some numbers I do not have?
> >
> > 	I have managed to figure out how to un-install and install the
> > parts the menus offet me... such as screen savers .... but I do not know
> > how to ask it to do a specific fix it or replace it.
> >
> > 	The last bit of the puzzle is I have 4.7 Netscape CD ROM...
> > 	which I wish to use .... and .... I am also told that SOMEWHERE I
> > will be able to do the stuff below....... which is what got me here in the
> > first place .......:
> >
> >
> > 		THIS STUFF:
> >
> >
> > 1.      Go to the Start menu and select Settings, then Control Panels.
> > Double
> > click on the Network icon.
> >
> > 2.      You should be at the Network window, and TCP/IP should be listed
> > in the
> > protocol box. Click on TCP/IP and then click the Properties button. If you
> > have
> > multiple TCP/IP entries, click on the one pointing to the dial-up adapter
> > then
> > click on the Properties button.
> >
> > 3.      Click the Wins Config tab at the top of the window. Make sure
> > "Disable
> > WINS resolution" is checked.
> >
> > 4. click on OK, then click on OK again. Restart the computer.
> >
> > Open up the dial-up networking folder. Create a new connection, with the
> > phone number 730-1825. Click on connect. Use herman for the username, then
> > your password for the password.
> >
> >
> >
> > 	Any help?   Basically the instructions above are nearly foreign
> > language to me.... I can not understand what is required of me.
> >
> >
> >
> > 			Thanks
> >
> >
> > 	John :duh: Schnurer
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan  5 16:40:53 2002
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From: "Alan" <sendalan brick.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: vortex feeder
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 18:46:17 -0600
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Vortex members

Well, here is a question on vortex grinders.   I am looking for an air
source that will generate an air supply with the following approximate
qualities:  around  4000 to 6000
cubic feet per minute at 40 lbs. pressure.  This air/gas (exhaust) mixture
should be over
200 degrees F  and relatively dry.   I do not want to use a commercial air
compressor.
Think jet engine or turbo engine etc.

Alan Schaefer
Mitchell Island R&D, LLC

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan  5 17:24:26 2002
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References: 
 <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020105040355.11751D-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 15:20:40 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Can NASA SMOT escape the Blue Hole?
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I knew somebody could find a use for 'em...

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/01/03/maglev.launches/index.html

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan  5 17:46:43 2002
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 20:46:36 -0500
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On Saturday 05 January 2002 08:20 pm, Rick Monteverde wrote:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/01/05/lunar.observatory/index.html> I knew 
somebody could find a use for 'em...
>
> 
>
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI



Check our the follow on article in the 'other stories' at the bottom:

 http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/01/03/maglev.launches/index.html

Daedalus crater on farside would be a natural for a radio telly.

Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan  5 17:52:01 2002
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: msnp 32 dll  IS MISSING  vredir.vxd  and  dfs.vxd are also (fwd)
Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 20:53:50 -0500
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On Saturday 05 January 2002 03:19 pm, John Schnurer wrote:
Dear John
	I just wish it were that simple.  I have a large patch of hair
missing from problems like this.  Try the missing 'mfc42.dll bug in
windows.  It happens when you install some program.  A reboot or
three later, or in a month when you have forgotten what you did, it
rears its head.  Windows does just about nothing until it is 'fixed'. 
Usually that means reinstall the whole system.  Your good files are
buried 10 deep in long file name directories on obscure drives.  You
did not write anything down.  And now to get it all back you have to
deal with a dos prompt......if you are lucky.  And copy them one by
one manually.........typing!   Unfortunately I did not read through all
the problem that you had.  I will do this and get back to you if I
can recognize what you did and where you are at.  Have many
years of experience with 'windows'.  Don't understand all I know
about it, but I have seen a LOT.

Standing Bear











> Dear Standing
>
> 	Does this mean I can just ignore this and my browser should
> still work?
>
> 	Can you let me know how to take the files I need off the CD and
> put them into-onto the sytem?
>
> qPlease?
>
> On Sat, 5 Jan 2002, Standing Bear wrote:
> > notice somebody said get yourself a Mac.  You could also go to
> > Linux.  There you would not have to worry about microsoft.  I would
> > worry about files having to do with browsers and e-mail with any
> > name sounding like re-direct.  Just WHO is your stuff being re-DIrected
> > TOO???!!   Alternatively, you might not want to use Microsoft Network
> > MSN, as they require (or will) their 'passport', which is a collection
> > of personal data on you to be sold to any mailing list vendor with a
> > few bucks ('commercial business partners' according to the sop
> > 'privacy statement').  If I sound hard boiled cynical, it is because I
> > have probably been around these crooks too long and had to dig
> > too much of thier crap out of hidden windows files in  out of the way
> > or hidden windows directories.
> >
> > Standing Bear
> >
> > On Saturday 05 January 2002 04:04 am, John Schnurer wrote:
> > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 03:54:36 -0500 (EST)
> > > From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
> > > To: Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
> > > Subject: msnp 32 dll  IS MISSING  vredir.vxd  and  dfs.vxd are also
> > >
> > >
> > > 	Oh woe.
> > >
> > > 	I have the WIN 98 CD
> > >
> > >
> > > 	PLEASE:
> > >
> > > 	Does anyone wish to help a rank novice in replacing the files or
> > > whatever they are?
> > >
> > > 	The message tells me:
> > >
> > > 	The two files are referred to by SYSTEM.INI
> > > 	BUT IT DOES NOT FIND THEM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 	And the message also tells me "Microsoft Network" is misssing.
> > >
> > >
> > > 	Is it possible to just replace the whole shooting match
> > > 	of Windows 98?  The CD is a borrowed CD.......  will it ask me for
> > > 		some numbers I do not have?
> > >
> > > 	I have managed to figure out how to un-install and install the
> > > parts the menus offet me... such as screen savers .... but I do not
> > > know how to ask it to do a specific fix it or replace it.
> > >
> > > 	The last bit of the puzzle is I have 4.7 Netscape CD ROM...
> > > 	which I wish to use .... and .... I am also told that SOMEWHERE I
> > > will be able to do the stuff below....... which is what got me here in
> > > the first place .......:
> > >
> > >
> > > 		THIS STUFF:
> > >
> > >
> > > 1.      Go to the Start menu and select Settings, then Control Panels.
> > > Double
> > > click on the Network icon.
> > >
> > > 2.      You should be at the Network window, and TCP/IP should be
> > > listed in the
> > > protocol box. Click on TCP/IP and then click the Properties button. If
> > > you have
> > > multiple TCP/IP entries, click on the one pointing to the dial-up
> > > adapter then
> > > click on the Properties button.
> > >
> > > 3.      Click the Wins Config tab at the top of the window. Make sure
> > > "Disable
> > > WINS resolution" is checked.
> > >
> > > 4. click on OK, then click on OK again. Restart the computer.
> > >
> > > Open up the dial-up networking folder. Create a new connection, with
> > > the phone number 730-1825. Click on connect. Use herman for the
> > > username, then your password for the password.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 	Any help?   Basically the instructions above are nearly foreign
> > > language to me.... I can not understand what is required of me.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 			Thanks
> > >
> > >
> > > 	John :duh: Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan  5 17:55:50 2002
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Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 17:49:07 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: vortex feeder
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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> I am looking for an air  source that will generate an air supply with the
following approximate  qualities:  around  4000 to 6000 cubic feet per
minute at 40 lbs. pressure.  This air/gas (exhaust) mixture should be over
200 degrees F  and relatively dry

Perhaps this is a bit of overkill, but several small companies:  RAM, AMT,
JetCat, SimJet make microturbines that could be modified to fit your needs.
The bigger player is Capstone, but maybe the best place to start is KAMPS:
http://www.gtba.cnuce.cnr.it/KAMP.HTM

The one shown is tres cool, only weighs a couple of pounds and spins at
100,000 rpm.  Be the first on your block to build your own miniature cruise
missile...

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan  5 18:40:08 2002
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Can NASA SMOT escape the Blue Hole?
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At 08:46 PM 1/5/02 -0500, you wrote:
>On Saturday 05 January 2002 08:20 pm, Rick Monteverde wrote:
>http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/01/05/lunar.observatory/index.html> I knew
>somebody could find a use for 'em...
> >
> >
> >
> > - Rick Monteverde
> > Honolulu, HI
>
>
>
>Check our the follow on article in the 'other stories' at the bottom:
>
>  http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/01/03/maglev.launches/index.html
>
>Daedalus crater on farside would be a natural for a radio telly.
>
>Standing Bear


They could sell tickets....

Say $10K to be one of the first 100 civilians to reach orbit via magnetic 
launch...   That would a million bucks from patrons.

A magnetic assays could greatly reduce costs in a much shorter 
term.   Sling the craft off of a high mountain and use thrust to finish the 
job...  I had at one time had a plan for a jet assist.  A reusable sled to 
power the craft to about M2 in a high altitude high attitude.  Jettison the 
sled and use rocketry to finish the job..

Hmm...   A rescue enviornment that can re-enter on its own using a mylar 
T-parasol...


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan  5 19:52:12 2002
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I don't have win98 anymore, but I just had a friend check who does and
his system.ini file doesn't mention any of those files, so just ignore
it.
As long as windows runs fine it's probably just a part of some software
or drivers for something that have been removed incorrectly and not an
important part of the OS.
If your computer however does not start correctly or has major problems
you will need to re-install from the CD.
Which is easy enough but you will need the serial, I will try and find
you one though I can't get one today.

And the "Microsoft Network" thing is just MSN, it's Microsofts version
of AOL.
Just ignore all the error messages as long as things look ok.
When you know your way around a little better I'll tell you how to get
rid of the error messages.

As to the instructions you couldn't understand, 1-3 and the first line
of 4 are not necessary anyway unless the settings are already wrong.
Save it for troubleshooting.

Click on "My Computer" on the desktop.
A window should open.

Click on the Dialup Networking icon.
If not there Click on Control Panel, then on Dialup networking.

Double click on "Make New Connection"

Follow instructions and enter you phone number, username and password.

If that doesn't work email me for more help.

Now only if your connection doesn't work right try this. I'll elaborate
on some of the instructions.
Though not having win98 anymore the menu structure is different.

 >1.      Go to the Start menu and select Settings, then Control Panels.

>Double click on the Network icon.

See the Taskbar (probably at the top or bottom of your desktop) has a
button at the left hand side that says "Start"
Click it with the left mouse button.
A menu will open, move the pointer over "Settings" and another menu
should appear with a tab called "Control Panel"
Click on it, another menu will open in a window with lots of icons.
Find an icon called "Network" and left click on it twice quickly.
Another window should open.

> 2.      You should be at the Network window, and TCP/IP should be
listed
> in the protocol box.

In the "Network" window that just opened should be a white box with
"TCP/IP in it.
If it isn't you might have to click Install?

>Click on TCP/IP and then click the Properties button. If you
> have multiple TCP/IP entries, click on the one pointing to the dial-up
adapter
> then click on the Properties button.
>
> 3.      Click the Wins Config tab at the top of the window. Make sure
> "Disable
> WINS resolution" is checked.
>
> 4. click on OK, then click on OK again. Restart the computer.

Basically the whole of the above can be ignored unless things are
already set wrongly.

If that doesn't fix everything email me for more help.

As for trying another OS, you need a whole different machine for a MAC,
and Linux is nice but not novice friendly.
Windoes 2000 is good if you can find a copy.

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New Zealand is the only country that has used geothermal energy to any
success.

However there are problems,

as Ed noted, Mineralization, low conductivity of rock is only a few of the
problems.

The primary problem with geothermal, is that by injecting or drawing water
throght the geothermal system,
pressure differences, ground shrinkage, and swelling may result, with
localized earthquakes as well.

If the geothermal wells are are also part of of a existing earthquake fault
zone,
drawing down pressure in one well, can actually increase quake activity on
other parts of the zone, as has happened in new zealand.

Also, introducing any well system into the ground including oil and Gas,
necessitates the use of biocides, to kill anerobic-high temperature-sulfur
bio-orginisms. After a while the Biocide becomes usless, as these organisms
adapt, so another type has to be used.

So in reality, the only clean energy we can possibly use, is Nuclear. Due to
the nature of politics in this country, any research and devolopment for
safer versions of this has been sucessfull stopped by the anti-technology
mind police for the last 30 years.

Successful Gamma-ray breakdown of nuclear waste has been accomplished to the
point that there is no long term radiocative waste products, and the process
by itself is also releasing enough energy it could be considered as a power
source by itself. It is also subcritical, as in, the process needs no
control rods, to dampen a runaway reactor. The Gamma source, when turned off
stops the reactions.

So, in summary,
	we have no energy shortage in the world, only a shortage of brave people
willing to stand up to the Luddites and Socialists.

Matt

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan  7 06:29:33 2002
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Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 09:26:34 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: RE: New geothermal "tower" proposed
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Matthew Rogers wrote:

>So in reality, the only clean energy we can possibly use, is Nuclear.

Nuclear is terribly expensive, and it isn't clean when you take into 
account the decommissioning of used reactors, mines, uranium refineries and 
so on. There has been serious pollution from badly run reactors, costing 
hundreds of millions of dollars to clean up. The most notorious example is 
the Connecticut Yankee plant, which starting in 1989 (that seminal year of 
history!) ran for 461 days nonstop, leaking radioactive waste inside and 
outside the building. The Connecticut Attorney General described the 
appalling mess as, "a nuclear management nightmare . . ." He said, "The 
goal is no longer to decommission a nuclear power plant, but rather to 
decontaminate a nuclear waste dump." (See my recent I.E. article on nuclear 
fission.)

The only clean, cheap, expandable energy source we have at this moment is 
wind power. In an upcoming article I show that it now generates the 
equivalent of 5 or 6 average U.S. plants, and it is expanding at the rate 
of 1.4 nuclear plants per year. (That is actual, not "nameplate" capacity.) 
At present rates of expansion, it will supply all of the electricity now 
consumed in the world by the year 2028.

Wind uses more materials than nuclear power, but it takes up less space and 
it costs less.


>So, in summary, we have no energy shortage in the world, only a shortage 
>of brave people willing to stand up to the Luddites and Socialists.

As I see it, the people who causing most problems in energy development are 
at the Department of Energy, Enron Corporation, the Office of the Vice 
President, and the directory of OPEC. They are not Luddites or socialists. 
Luddites did not destroy nuclear power! That was the builders, operators 
and regulators responsible for the disasters at the U.S. plants at Fermi, 
Browns Ferry, Three Mile Island, Connecticut Yankee, Vogtle and elsewhere. 
(Vogtle was financial disaster. Costs "skyrocketed from an estimated $660 
million to $8.87 billion." as the DoE says.)

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan  7 09:08:43 2002
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re:Rothwell on geothermal
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>
>I am not suggesting the "skeptics" are always wrong, by any means, 
>but sometimes they come up with a legitimate problem but they 
>overlook a relatively simple solution to it.
>
>- Jed


I don't know Jed, what part of the water gets loaded up with 
corrosive chemicals which destroy the machinery, don't you understand?





-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan  7 11:01:09 2002
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thomas malloy wrote:

>I don't know Jed, what part of the water gets loaded up with corrosive 
>chemicals which destroy the machinery, don't you understand?

You don't know because you have not read the article in question. The tower 
is a sealed, self contained unit with a gas working fluid.
The gases are isopentane and isobutene, which are not reactive or corrosive 
according to the Material Safety Data Sheets, although they are flammable 
and a health hazard. There is no water involved. I suggest you review the 
article before commenting. I also suggest you refrain from using smart 
aleck cliches such as "what part . . . don't you know." That expression was 
not particularly funny the first 160,000 times it was used (the tally 
according to Google.com).

- Jed

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Subject: Infinite Spiritual Power in Distributed & Quantum Systems & Natural Universes!
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Infinite Spiritual Power & Liberties in Distributed & Quantum
Systems & Natural Universes !

I would like to write this email, to explain away some common
misunderstandings about the limits of individual liberties and
spiritual power in individual life forms on Earth or anywhere in
this or another universe by explaining distributed and quantum
models of the universe to prove my points.  

Each individual life form, is given at birth into natural life, a set
of parallel streams of ideal eternal and infinite being which may
be approximately measured and recorded by a set of logical
quantum matrices, which approximate mathematical models of
physical space in 3 dimensional space (x,y,z), 4 dimensional
space-time(x,y,z,t) and 5 dimensional space-time,.spiralwarps in
timespace(x,y,z,t, timewarp spiral(x,y,z)), and 6 dimensional
space-time,spiralwarps in time, and spiralwarps in gravity
(x,y,z,t, timewarp spiral(x,y,z)), gravitywarp sprial(x,y,z,); and,
which may be interpreted as energy, waves, and particles
depending on the sensing device or organism; and, the
mathematical or physical equations, and programmatic
procedures for interpreting and processing the logical quantum
information.  These quantumly measured information matrixes
may be recorded on matrixes in a computer or in a holographic
storage device, and also displayed as a holographic image by
using fractal geometry equations to interpret the quantum
information in the matrixes. 

According to Burkhard Heim, Protosimplex, Geometrical
understandings of elementary particles posted at 

http://people.blinx.de/behemoth/protosimplex/posdzech/px_g_t
eilchen_e.htm, .

the smallest possible geometrical unit of empty space is the
metron which is 6.15 * 10^-70 m^2.  And the smallest possible
measurement of a physical particle to date is 10^-32 m
according to Occult Ether Physics by William Lyne 1997, J.A.
Wheeler, Geometrodynamics, Academic Press, N.Y. 1962,
"measured the energy density of  ZPR at 10^94 gram/cm^3, for
individual fluctuations of random  ZPR, on the scale of the
Plank length (10^-33 cm.), by means of  a standard radiation
detector, the frequency response of which was specially altered
to extend into the super high frequency spectrum involved. " Pg
19

It is possible to easily create physical waves smaller than 10^-32
meters by using wave interferometry, and many patents exist
presently for this in telecommunications for information
compression, coding and transfer as used in a set of satellites to
create the reflecting interference patterns from waves bouncing
of satellites and dishes. And it may be possible to indirectly
measure smaller waves by using inteferometry.

Given the above information, then it is possible to model a
particular physical object or life form by a set of parallel
multidimensional quantum matrixes as describe above. Each life
form or object in any defined universe, may have an infinite set
of parallel matrixes which may be reduced to a range of parallel
matrixes for computing purposes by using sparse arrays, and
which may define the locations of the particles of the object or
life form within the projected parallel universes described by the
parallel quantum matrix. These parallel universes for any object
or life form may be displayed and seen on a holographic device
or even on a simple UHF TV channel in the 400MHz range,
which is similar to the range of the spherical harmonics of
human thought and dreaming, though it may not encompass the
totality of the human being in spherical harmonics of the spirit.

>From the above models, one can easily conclude, that any life
form lives in many parallel worlds at the same time, and these
parallel worlds can be modeled and envisioned by the human
mind in meditation, thought, and dreams or by a mechanical
devices such as computers, TV, and holographic imaging
devices.  Any group of life forms that make up a family,
community, or even race, also shares some common quantum
or analogue information patterns which may be called beliefs of
social and physical life within the community or perceived
universe in linguistic terms. 

Based on the above defined models, then there are an infinite
number of spiritual eternal in time and infinite in space
universes, which each life form may exist in spiritually, and
these spiritual universes may be interpreted by the physical
human body and mind to create a perception of the physical
universe or of a defined shared local community.   
Consequently, it is possible for any life form or group of life
forms to define and live in any imaginary universe they can
imagine and so desire. This also means that it is possible to
create a new local physical universe different from the rest of
the local physical universes on Earth in any life form on Earth in
their own home and community in a very short time period with
high energy or high ideal beliefs. It is also possible to travel to
new universes by means of ships and mechanical devices to
locate those universes.  Life forms are not limited to one and
only one physical universe, defined by the powers that be to
entrap life forms in their version of a universe. 

Also in my particular case, I have developed a very high ideal
state of being, and some of the powers that be have focused
directed energies on me, to control the parallel possibilities of
my ideal state of being, and to use my ideal state of being as a
repeater to get reliable information from the past, present, and
future of many parallel universes.  Consequently, I am simply no
more than an ordinary individual life form like any else on
Earth, but I have chosen to develop high ideals and ethics in my
personal spirit which has high resonance and compression in
information transfer due to the ideal nature of compassion, and
which gives me a lot of spiritual freedom and power, which
others would like to control, and get information from, as if I
were like a priest or a Delphic oracle, being interrogated and
forced to give out information, by some of the powers that be. 
But it would be much easier for others, or some of the powers
that be,  to simply develop high ideals and ethics themselves in
their personal life, and then they would be just like me, and
would not need to control me or interrogate me for information,
which they could get themselves in a high state of being. In
effect every life form or individual on Earth or any where else in
the universe is a Delphic Oracle, who can communicate with the
eternal infinite multiverse of infinite godheads or divine beings.
And there is not just one divine being, and a small set of
individual who can communicate with that one divine being,
since everyone can communicate with not only with one divine
being but an infinitely many divine beings. 

But I also have hostile agents targeting me with directed
energies to confuse everyone so that they do not get the truth of
my true ideal state of being and beliefs, by creating false auras,
dreams, and physical interpretations of me, as a means of
mockery, and as a means of repression. But despite all of the
forces of some of the powers that be, in the universe, I have
been able to spiritually preserve myself and define my spiritual
beliefs, and realize them very successfully in my written, verbal,
and aetheric communication with others, and in business affairs,
but not as successfully in my physical body and local physical
environment, presently.  

So in effect, I am just a simple U.S. citizen, who may be classed
as a hostage of information warfare, but who still has basic
constitutional freedoms, since he chooses to realize them with
himself and others, and has done so very successfully to this
date; and consequently, to this date, some of the powers that be
in the universe, have not been able to enslave my spirit, personal
beliefs, and actions in this world in written and business
activities; and they are having a difficult time enslaving my
physical body, since I am becoming very good at healing the
damaged done by hostile directed energies  to my physical
body, so that it matches my true spirit, now and in all of my
parallell futures, and pasts, by means of spiritual, natural and
mechanical healing methods.  

I am also encouraging & developing technologies such as
privacy force fields, alternative energies, and space travel
technologies, and making agreements with others, to realize
those technologies as much as possible which should allow life
forms on Earth and elsewhere to live in a more natural state of
being, where the energies of the natural Earth are not repressed
by artificial technologies from hostile entities;  and which would
allow for more natural  higher energies, and gravity waves, on
Earth, which make levitation, and telepathy easily realizable, for
all and the simplest of life forms.

Also, it is very easy for any individual to imagine a parallel
universe of oneself, and ask oneself in another parallel universe
in the past, present, or future, to send ships and resources to
help oneself in any universe of being, if one is outnumbered in a
local universe of being by hostile forces, and so there is always
hope, no matter what the media or some of the powers that be
may say to an individual or community of individuals.


Respectfully,


Thomas Clark
tom rhfweb.com
www.rhfweb.com\personal


















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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Infinite Spiritual Power &amp; Liberties in Distributed &amp; Quantum
<BR>Systems &amp; Natural Universes !
<BR>
<BR>I would like to write this email, to explain away some common
<BR>misunderstandings about the limits of individual liberties and
<BR>spiritual power in individual life forms on Earth or anywhere in
<BR>this or another universe by explaining distributed and quantum
<BR>models of the universe to prove my points. &nbsp;
<BR>
<BR>Each individual life form, is given at birth into natural life, a set
<BR>of parallel streams of ideal eternal and infinite being which may
<BR>be approximately measured and recorded by a set of logical
<BR>quantum matrices, which approximate mathematical models of
<BR>physical space in 3 dimensional space (x,y,z), 4 dimensional
<BR>space-time(x,y,z,t) and 5 dimensional space-time,.spiralwarps in
<BR>timespace(x,y,z,t, timewarp spiral(x,y,z)), and 6 dimensional
<BR>space-time,spiralwarps in time, and spiralwarps in gravity
<BR>(x,y,z,t, timewarp spiral(x,y,z)), gravitywarp sprial(x,y,z,); and,
<BR>which may be interpreted as energy, waves, and particles
<BR>depending on the sensing device or organism; and, the
<BR>mathematical or physical equations, and programmatic
<BR>procedures for interpreting and processing the logical quantum
<BR>information. &nbsp;These quantumly measured information matrixes
<BR>may be recorded on matrixes in a computer or in a holographic
<BR>storage device, and also displayed as a holographic image by
<BR>using fractal geometry equations to interpret the quantum
<BR>information in the matrixes. 
<BR>
<BR>According to Burkhard Heim, Protosimplex, Geometrical
<BR>understandings of elementary particles posted at 
<BR>
<BR>http://people.blinx.de/behemoth/protosimplex/posdzech/px_g_t
<BR>eilchen_e.htm, .
<BR>
<BR>the smallest possible geometrical unit of empty space is the
<BR>metron which is 6.15 * 10^-70 m^2. &nbsp;And the smallest possible
<BR>measurement of a physical particle to date is 10^-32 m
<BR>according to Occult Ether Physics by William Lyne 1997, J.A.
<BR>Wheeler, Geometrodynamics, Academic Press, N.Y. 1962,
<BR>"measured the energy density of &nbsp;ZPR at 10^94 gram/cm^3, for
<BR>individual fluctuations of random &nbsp;ZPR, on the scale of the
<BR>Plank length (10^-33 cm.), by means of &nbsp;a standard radiation
<BR>detector, the frequency response of which was specially altered
<BR>to extend into the super high frequency spectrum involved. " Pg
<BR>19
<BR>
<BR>It is possible to easily create physical waves smaller than 10^-32
<BR>meters by using wave interferometry, and many patents exist
<BR>presently for this in telecommunications for information
<BR>compression, coding and transfer as used in a set of satellites to
<BR>create the reflecting interference patterns from waves bouncing
<BR>of satellites and dishes. And it may be possible to indirectly
<BR>measure smaller waves by using inteferometry.
<BR>
<BR>Given the above information, then it is possible to model a
<BR>particular physical object or life form by a set of parallel
<BR>multidimensional quantum matrixes as describe above. Each life
<BR>form or object in any defined universe, may have an infinite set
<BR>of parallel matrixes which may be reduced to a range of parallel
<BR>matrixes for computing purposes by using sparse arrays, and
<BR>which may define the locations of the particles of the object or
<BR>life form within the projected parallel universes described by the
<BR>parallel quantum matrix. These parallel universes for any object
<BR>or life form may be displayed and seen on a holographic device
<BR>or even on a simple UHF TV channel in the 400MHz range,
<BR>which is similar to the range of the spherical harmonics of
<BR>human thought and dreaming, though it may not encompass the
<BR>totality of the human being in spherical harmonics of the spirit.
<BR>
<BR>From the above models, one can easily conclude, that any life
<BR>form lives in many parallel worlds at the same time, and these
<BR>parallel worlds can be modeled and envisioned by the human
<BR>mind in meditation, thought, and dreams or by a mechanical
<BR>devices such as computers, TV, and holographic imaging
<BR>devices. &nbsp;Any group of life forms that make up a family,
<BR>community, or even race, also shares some common quantum
<BR>or analogue information patterns which may be called beliefs of
<BR>social and physical life within the community or perceived
<BR>universe in linguistic terms. 
<BR>
<BR>Based on the above defined models, then there are an infinite
<BR>number of spiritual eternal in time and infinite in space
<BR>universes, which each life form may exist in spiritually, and
<BR>these spiritual universes may be interpreted by the physical
<BR>human body and mind to create a perception of the physical
<BR>universe or of a defined shared local community. &nbsp;&nbsp;
<BR>Consequently, it is possible for any life form or group of life
<BR>forms to define and live in any imaginary universe they can
<BR>imagine and so desire. This also means that it is possible to
<BR>create a new local physical universe different from the rest of
<BR>the local physical universes on Earth in any life form on Earth in
<BR>their own home and community in a very short time period with
<BR>high energy or high ideal beliefs. It is also possible to travel to
<BR>new universes by means of ships and mechanical devices to
<BR>locate those universes. &nbsp;Life forms are not limited to one and
<BR>only one physical universe, defined by the powers that be to
<BR>entrap life forms in their version of a universe. 
<BR>
<BR>Also in my particular case, I have developed a very high ideal
<BR>state of being, and some of the powers that be have focused
<BR>directed energies on me, to control the parallel possibilities of
<BR>my ideal state of being, and to use my ideal state of being as a
<BR>repeater to get reliable information from the past, present, and
<BR>future of many parallel universes. &nbsp;Consequently, I am simply no
<BR>more than an ordinary individual life form like any else on
<BR>Earth, but I have chosen to develop high ideals and ethics in my
<BR>personal spirit which has high resonance and compression in
<BR>information transfer due to the ideal nature of compassion, and
<BR>which gives me a lot of spiritual freedom and power, which
<BR>others would like to control, and get information from, as if I
<BR>were like a priest or a Delphic oracle, being interrogated and
<BR>forced to give out information, by some of the powers that be. 
<BR>But it would be much easier for others, or some of the powers
<BR>that be, &nbsp;to simply develop high ideals and ethics themselves in
<BR>their personal life, and then they would be just like me, and
<BR>would not need to control me or interrogate me for information,
<BR>which they could get themselves in a high state of being. In
<BR>effect every life form or individual on Earth or any where else in
<BR>the universe is a Delphic Oracle, who can communicate with the
<BR>eternal infinite multiverse of infinite godheads or divine beings.
<BR>And there is not just one divine being, and a small set of
<BR>individual who can communicate with that one divine being,
<BR>since everyone can communicate with not only with one divine
<BR>being but an infinitely many divine beings. 
<BR>
<BR>But I also have hostile agents targeting me with directed
<BR>energies to confuse everyone so that they do not get the truth of
<BR>my true ideal state of being and beliefs, by creating false auras,
<BR>dreams, and physical interpretations of me, as a means of
<BR>mockery, and as a means of repression. But despite all of the
<BR>forces of some of the powers that be, in the universe, I have
<BR>been able to spiritually preserve myself and define my spiritual
<BR>beliefs, and realize them very successfully in my written, verbal,
<BR>and aetheric communication with others, and in business affairs,
<BR>but not as successfully in my physical body and local physical
<BR>environment, presently. &nbsp;
<BR>
<BR>So in effect, I am just a simple U.S. citizen, who may be classed
<BR>as a hostage of information warfare, but who still has basic
<BR>constitutional freedoms, since he chooses to realize them with
<BR>himself and others, and has done so very successfully to this
<BR>date; and consequently, to this date, some of the powers that be
<BR>in the universe, have not been able to enslave my spirit, personal
<BR>beliefs, and actions in this world in written and business
<BR>activities; and they are having a difficult time enslaving my
<BR>physical body, since I am becoming very good at healing the
<BR>damaged done by hostile directed energies &nbsp;to my physical
<BR>body, so that it matches my true spirit, now and in all of my
<BR>parallell futures, and pasts, by means of spiritual, natural and
<BR>mechanical healing methods. &nbsp;
<BR>
<BR>I am also encouraging &amp; developing technologies such as
<BR>privacy force fields, alternative energies, and space travel
<BR>technologies, and making agreements with others, to realize
<BR>those technologies as much as possible which should allow life
<BR>forms on Earth and elsewhere to live in a more natural state of
<BR>being, where the energies of the natural Earth are not repressed
<BR>by artificial technologies from hostile entities; &nbsp;and which would
<BR>allow for more natural &nbsp;higher energies, and gravity waves, on
<BR>Earth, which make levitation, and telepathy easily realizable, for
<BR>all and the simplest of life forms.
<BR>
<BR>Also, it is very easy for any individual to imagine a parallel
<BR>universe of oneself, and ask oneself in another parallel universe
<BR>in the past, present, or future, to send ships and resources to
<BR>help oneself in any universe of being, if one is outnumbered in a
<BR>local universe of being by hostile forces, and so there is always
<BR>hope, no matter what the media or some of the powers that be
<BR>may say to an individual or community of individuals.
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Respectfully,
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Thomas Clark
<BR>tom rhfweb.com
<BR>www.rhfweb.com\personal
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Rothwell on geothermal
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 07:11:08 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Mon, 7 Jan 2002 11:06:29 -0600:
[snip]
>I don't know Jed, what part of the water gets loaded up with 
>corrosive chemicals which destroy the machinery, don't you understand?

Quite good thermal conductivity can be combined with good chemical
resistance by adhering a 0.1 mm layer of polyethylene to metal.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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Subject: Floating Hydrophonic Nets to Grow Food on the Ocean Seas and in the Sky?
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Floating Hydrophonic Nets to Grow Food on the Ocean Seas
and in the Sky?

It should be very easy and not expensive to build giant floating
nets over the waters of the Ocean out of the tethers made by
Nasa for space travel which may be used to grow hydrophonic
foods and vegetables.  Miniature flexible tent like green houses
should also be able to protect the hydrophonic growing  foods
and to keep them sterile while floating on the ocean.  Also
blimps and nets made of tethers can be set up in the sky to grow
some foods in the atmosphere. Permanent blimps already exist
which can be used to replace satellites, as I read in the Wired
Magazine in 1997 by some company, who's presidents name
was Hague. 


Respectfully,


Thomas Clark
tom rhfweb.com\pesonal
www.rhfweb.com

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Floating Hydrophonic Nets to Grow Food on the Ocean Seas
<BR>and in the Sky?
<BR>
<BR>It should be very easy and not expensive to build giant floating
<BR>nets over the waters of the Ocean out of the tethers made by
<BR>Nasa for space travel which may be used to grow hydrophonic
<BR>foods and vegetables. &nbsp;Miniature flexible tent like green houses
<BR>should also be able to protect the hydrophonic growing &nbsp;foods
<BR>and to keep them sterile while floating on the ocean. &nbsp;Also
<BR>blimps and nets made of tethers can be set up in the sky to grow
<BR>some foods in the atmosphere. Permanent blimps already exist
<BR>which can be used to replace satellites, as I read in the Wired
<BR>Magazine in 1997 by some company, who's presidents name
<BR>was Hague. 
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Respectfully,
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Thomas Clark
<BR>tom rhfweb.com\pesonal
<BR>www.rhfweb.com</FONT></HTML>

--part1_119.a8a907f.296b5dc4_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan  7 13:47:49 2002
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Subject: Re: Floating Hydrophonic Nets to Grow Food on the Ocean Seas and in the Sky?
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 16:41:58 -0500
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 Tom this is an excellent idea!  Expanding on this idea....  It may be =
possible to hydroponically grow many food crops in such a manner, =
especially if they could be made to to thrive symbiotically with the =
natural flora of the water such as algae.  If such designs could include =
an underwater portion, that part of the support structure could well be =
used as a type of moveable reef around which many lifeforms can collect. =
 Thus, a multiple level, complex habitat could be created in such a =
manner as to be homeostatic or self-supporting and self-balancing. I =
would suggest the addition of a water evaporator as an intrinsic part of =
the design, in order to bring about the possibility of growing =
fresh-water plants as well as saltwater plants. =20
my $0.02,=20
 Ryan
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: ConexTom aol.com=20
  To: ":Round" yahoogroups.com ; SiriusIntelligence@yahoogroups.com ; =
Wangus yahoogroups.com ; vortex-l@eskimo.com=20
  Cc: ConexTom aol.com=20
  Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 3:23 PM
  Subject: Floating Hydrophonic Nets to Grow Food on the Ocean Seas and =
in the Sky?


  Floating Hydrophonic Nets to Grow Food on the Ocean Seas=20
  and in the Sky?=20

  It should be very easy and not expensive to build giant floating=20
  nets over the waters of the Ocean out of the tethers made by=20
  Nasa for space travel which may be used to grow hydrophonic=20
  foods and vegetables.  Miniature flexible tent like green houses=20
  should also be able to protect the hydrophonic growing  foods=20
  and to keep them sterile while floating on the ocean.  Also=20
  blimps and nets made of tethers can be set up in the sky to grow=20
  some foods in the atmosphere. Permanent blimps already exist=20
  which can be used to replace satellites, as I read in the Wired=20
  Magazine in 1997 by some company, who's presidents name=20
  was Hague.=20


  Respectfully,=20


  Thomas Clark=20
  tom rhfweb.com\pesonal=20
  www.rhfweb.com=20

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;Tom this is an excellent =
idea!&nbsp;=20
Expanding on this idea....&nbsp; It may be possible to hydroponically =
grow many=20
food crops in such a manner, especially if they could be made to to =
thrive=20
symbiotically with the natural flora of the water such as algae.&nbsp; =
If such=20
designs could include an underwater portion, that part of the support =
structure=20
could well be used as a type of moveable reef around which many =
lifeforms can=20
collect.&nbsp; Thus, a multiple level, complex habitat could be created =
in such=20
a manner as to be homeostatic or self-supporting and =
self-balancing.&nbsp;I=20
would suggest the addition of a water evaporator as an intrinsic part=20
of&nbsp;the design, in order to bring about the possibility of growing=20
fresh-water plants as well as saltwater plants.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>my $0.02,&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;Ryan</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:ConexTom aol.com" =
title=3DConexTom aol.com>ConexTom@aol.com</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D'mailto:":Round" yahoogroups.com'=20
  title=3D'":Round" yahoogroups.com'>":Round"@yahoogroups.com</A> ; <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:SiriusIntelligence yahoogroups.com"=20
  =
title=3DSiriusIntelligence yahoogroups.com>SiriusIntelligence@yahoogroups=
.com</A>=20
  ; <A href=3D"mailto:Wangus yahoogroups.com"=20
  title=3DWangus yahoogroups.com>Wangus@yahoogroups.com</A> ; <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com"=20
  title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com>vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:ConexTom aol.com"=20
  title=3DConexTom aol.com>ConexTom@aol.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 07, 2002 =
3:23=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Floating Hydrophonic =
Nets to=20
  Grow Food on the Ocean Seas and in the Sky?</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>Floating =
Hydrophonic=20
  Nets to Grow Food on the Ocean Seas <BR>and in the Sky? <BR><BR>It =
should be=20
  very easy and not expensive to build giant floating <BR>nets over the =
waters=20
  of the Ocean out of the tethers made by <BR>Nasa for space travel =
which may be=20
  used to grow hydrophonic <BR>foods and vegetables. &nbsp;Miniature =
flexible=20
  tent like green houses <BR>should also be able to protect the =
hydrophonic=20
  growing &nbsp;foods <BR>and to keep them sterile while floating on the =
ocean.=20
  &nbsp;Also <BR>blimps and nets made of tethers can be set up in the =
sky to=20
  grow <BR>some foods in the atmosphere. Permanent blimps already exist=20
  <BR>which can be used to replace satellites, as I read in the Wired=20
  <BR>Magazine in 1997 by some company, who's presidents name <BR>was =
Hague.=20
  <BR><BR><BR>Respectfully, <BR><BR><BR>Thomas Clark =
<BR>tom rhfweb.com\pesonal=20
  <BR>www.rhfweb.com</FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_012D_01C1979A.39671820--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan  7 14:12:19 2002
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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Floating Hydrophonic Nets to Grow Food on the Ocean Seas and in the Sky?
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I think the salt water would kill the plants.

Or do you propose to use fresh water and try an keep the salt out?

What's the advantage? I can do hydroponics on cheap land, and recycle the
water, like is done in Israel.



On Mon, 7 Jan 2002, Ryan Hopkins wrote:

>  Tom this is an excellent idea!  Expanding on this idea....  It may be possible to hydroponically grow many food crops in such a manner, especially if they could be made to to thrive symbiotically with the natural flora of the water such as algae.  If s
uch designs could include an underwater portion, that part of the support structure could well be used as a type of moveable reef around which many lifeforms can collect.  Thus, a multiple level, complex habitat could be created in such a manner as to be 
homeostatic or self-supporting and self-balancing. I would suggest the addition of a water evaporator as an intrinsic part of the design, in order to bring about the possibility of growing fresh-water plants as well as saltwater plants.  
> my $0.02, 
>  Ryan
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: ConexTom aol.com 
>   To: ":Round" yahoogroups.com ; SiriusIntelligence@yahoogroups.com ; Wangus@yahoogroups.com ; vortex-l@eskimo.com 
>   Cc: ConexTom aol.com 
>   Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 3:23 PM
>   Subject: Floating Hydrophonic Nets to Grow Food on the Ocean Seas and in the Sky?
> 
> 
>   Floating Hydrophonic Nets to Grow Food on the Ocean Seas 
>   and in the Sky? 
> 
>   It should be very easy and not expensive to build giant floating 
>   nets over the waters of the Ocean out of the tethers made by 
>   Nasa for space travel which may be used to grow hydrophonic 
>   foods and vegetables.  Miniature flexible tent like green houses 
>   should also be able to protect the hydrophonic growing  foods 
>   and to keep them sterile while floating on the ocean.  Also 
>   blimps and nets made of tethers can be set up in the sky to grow 
>   some foods in the atmosphere. Permanent blimps already exist 
>   which can be used to replace satellites, as I read in the Wired 
>   Magazine in 1997 by some company, who's presidents name 
>   was Hague. 
> 
> 
>   Respectfully, 
> 
> 
>   Thomas Clark 
>   tom rhfweb.com\pesonal 
>   www.rhfweb.com 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan  7 14:39:55 2002
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Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:36:51 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Floating Hydrophonic Nets to Grow Food on the Ocean Seas
  and in the Sky?
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ConexTom aol.com wrote:

>It should be very easy and not expensive to build giant floating
>nets over the waters of the Ocean out of the tethers made by
>Nasa for space travel which may be used to grow hydrophonic . . .

This would not be easy. Storms at sea are frequent and incredibly 
destructive. There are salmon farms at sea which have underwater nets, I 
think. In Japan there are extensive underwater edible seaweed farms, in 
sheltered bays and the Inland Sea. But I do not think that large structures 
above water on the open sea are practical. Wave energy farms would probably 
not last long. Oil drilling platforms are expensive and vulnerable. Also, 
people and animals do not eat many salt water plants.

There is plenty of open land that could be irrigated and used for farming. 
The best place to grow fish is on land, in enclosed aquafarm factories. The 
fish are healthier and cleaner, they are inoculated and certified, natural 
stocks are not depleted, and there is less strain on the environment. Years 
ago they did not taste as good as wild fish, but nowadays the producers 
know the fish have to swim, so they put them in rapidly moving currents of 
pumped water. Fishing is the last major hunter-gatherer activity. It should 
have been abolished long ago.

- Jed

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	And we can make tapes and Cds of the hydrophonic music.

	
	Dear Folks,


	On a serious note.... (ha ha ha heee heeeh eeeeee)


	I have designs for underwater signal acquisition methods of
several types and my friend Dan may consider building thme for interested
parties.  These include but are not limited to:

	a]	acoustical, standard
	b]	acoustical, ultrasonic, flat decode
	c]	ultrasonic time dialation of dolphin 'clicks'
			either flat or variable K
	d]	automatic log compression
	e]	similar to above for infra sonic
	f]	similar to above for electric fields and magnetic fields
	g]	similar to [f] but in air 
	h]	as [g]  but for use in the Earth



					John Herman

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan  8 10:54:42 2002
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Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 10:42:32 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Infinite Spiritual Power in Distributed & Quantum Systems &
 Natural Universes!
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This prevocative message from Thomas Clark is so philosophically =
convoluted, informationally overloaded, and off-topic for this forum as =
to make meaningful commentary superfluous But it is certainly a delight =
that someone is making such a dedicated effort to understand the =
incomprehensible by relating theology to cutting edge physics.

However, there is one significant citation that is mentioned prominently =
in the posting that is definitely relevant to any vortexian who might be =
interested in *supra-dimensionality* (i.e. extra dimensions, Riemann =
geometry, etc) as a gateway to understanding the physical universe in =
ways that QM fails and also as a pointer to methods for engineering =
"free energy" and efficient space travel.

This site is in German but there is a PDF file in english for =
downloading that will offer an incredible intellectual experience to =
those willing to attack it:
http://www.mufon-ces.org/text/deutsch/heimphysik.htm

Hope you have a high bandwidth connection because it is 2.3 megs. From =
the file:

"The physicist Burkhard Heim, who deceased on January 14th, 2001...was =
the German equivalent to Stephen Hawking and one of the greatest German =
physicists. Since he left the Max-Planck-Institute in Goettingen in 1954 =
because of his bodily handicap (he lost his eyes, his hearing and his =
hands by an accident) he worked privately. When he published his theory =
in two voluminous books (written in German, about 600 pages) in 1979 and =
1984, nobody could believe that Heim discovered the unified mass =
formula. And nobody remembered that he had become famous in 1959, when =
he proposed a new propulsion system for spaceflight."
"The 5th and 6th dimension, although imaginary like the time-dimension, =
have to be something different, because more than one single time =
dimension leads to unphysical results (Cole 1980). According to Heim, =
the two higher dimensions are associated with organizational properties. =
They will be called "trans-coordinates", to distinguish them from the =
four dimensions with which we are all familiar. They are denoted by x5 =
and x6 . x5 is a coordinate designating the degree of organization of a =
system..."

bon apetite














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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4616.200" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>This prevocative message from Thomas Clark is so philosophically=20
convoluted, informationally overloaded, and off-topic for this forum as =
to make=20
meaningful commentary superfluous But it is certainly a delight that =
someone is=20
making such a dedicated&nbsp;effort to understand the incomprehensible =
by=20
relating theology to cutting edge physics.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT size=3D3>However, there is&nbsp;one =
significant citation=20
that is mentioned prominently in the posting that is definitely =
relevant&nbsp;to=20
any vortexian who might be interested in *supra-dimensionality* (i.e. =
extra=20
dimensions, Riemann geometry, etc)&nbsp;as a gateway to understanding =
the=20
physical universe in ways that QM fails and also&nbsp;as a pointer to=20
methods&nbsp;for engineering&nbsp;"free energy" and efficient space=20
travel.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT size=3D3>This site is in German but there is a =
PDF file in=20
english for downloading that will offer an incredible intellectual =
experience to=20
those willing to attack it:</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT size=3D3><A=20
href=3D"http://www.mufon-ces.org/text/deutsch/heimphysik.htm">http://www.=
mufon-ces.org/text/deutsch/heimphysik.htm</A></FONT></DIV></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2>
<DIV><BR><FONT size=3D3>Hope you have a high bandwidth connection =
because it is=20
2.3 megs. From the file:</FONT><BR><FONT size=3D3></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>"The physicist Burkhard Heim, who deceased on =
January=20
14</FONT><FONT size=3D3>th</FONT><FONT size=3D3>, 2001...</FONT><FONT =
size=3D3>was the=20
German equivalent to Stephen Hawking and one of the greatest German =
</FONT><FONT=20
size=3D3>physicists. Since he left the <I>Max-Planck-Institute </I>in =
Goettingen=20
in 1954 because of his bodily </FONT><FONT size=3D3>handicap (he lost =
his eyes,=20
his hearing and his hands by an accident) he worked privately. When =
</FONT><FONT=20
size=3D3>he published his theory in two voluminous books (written in =
German, about=20
600 pages) in </FONT><FONT size=3D3>1979 and 1984, nobody could believe =
that Heim=20
discovered the unified mass formula. And </FONT><FONT size=3D3>nobody =
remembered=20
that he had become famous in 1959, when he proposed a new propulsion=20
</FONT><FONT size=3D3>system for spaceflight."</FONT></DIV>
<P align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D3>"The 5</FONT><FONT size=3D3>th =
</FONT><FONT size=3D3>and=20
6</FONT><FONT size=3D3>th </FONT><FONT size=3D3>dimension, although =
imaginary like=20
the time-dimension, have to be something </FONT><FONT =
size=3D3>different, because=20
more than one single time dimension leads to unphysical results (Cole =
1980).=20
</FONT><FONT size=3D3>According to Heim, the two higher dimensions are =
associated=20
with organizational properties. </FONT><FONT size=3D3>They will be =
called=20
"trans-coordinates", to distinguish them from the four dimensions with=20
</FONT><FONT size=3D3>which we are all familiar. They are denoted by x5 =
and x6 .=20
x5 is a coordinate designating the </FONT><FONT size=3D3>degree of =
organization of=20
a system..."</FONT></P>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D3>bon apetite</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV=20
align=3Dleft><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV></FONT></BODY>=
</HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan  8 12:28:08 2002
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Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 15:01:04 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Natrium automobile more practical than it sounds
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See:

http://www.evworld.com/databases/storybuilder.cfm?storyid=285

Select recording of conference presentation below by Christian Mohrdieck

"He explains the pros and cons of the sodium borohydride system." It sounds 
more practical than I first imagined, although the overall efficiency would 
be low with the remanufacturing of the fuel. I think they estimate it is 
equivalent to 30 miles per gallon of gasoline. It is interesting that they 
compared this to a high pressure hydrogen gas tank, and determined this 
takes less space and has much greater range.

Hydrogen as fuel has three big problems: generation, transport, and storage.

There is a new book about this: "Tomorrow's Energy," by Peter Hoffmann & 
Tom Harkin. I have not read it, but there are some interesting sample pages 
on Amazon.com. It is written for the general audience.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan  8 15:29:02 2002
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Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 18:23:27 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: GM fuel cell concept car
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See:

http://money.cnn.com/2002/01/08/autos/auto_tech/

This is several steps too far, I think. A first generation gadget should 
try to emulate older versions, or the customers will be frightened away.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan  8 22:16:20 2002
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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=20

ION SLIP

When a plasma moves at high speed, the electrons tend to move faster =
than the ions. The velocity difference is called Ion Slip. Ion slip =
creates a voltage that is axial to the direction of plasma flow.

[All above taken from "Handbook of Magnetic Phenomena" by Harry E. Burke =
1986]



found on http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ufophysics/electrolyticflows.htm


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<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>&nbsp;
<P align=3Djustify></P>
<P align=3Djustify>ION SLIP</P></B>
<P align=3Djustify>When a plasma moves at high speed, the electrons tend =
to move=20
faster than the ions. The velocity difference is called <I>Ion Slip.</I> =
Ion=20
slip creates a voltage that is axial to the direction of plasma =
flow.</P>
<P align=3Djustify>[All above taken from <I>"Handbook of Magnetic =
Phenomena"</I>=20
by Harry E. Burke 1986]</P>
<P align=3Djustify>&nbsp;</P>
<P align=3Djustify>found on <A=20
href=3D"http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ufophysics/electrolyticflows.htm">ht=
tp://homepage.ntlworld.com/ufophysics/electrolyticflows.htm</A></P></FONT=
></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan  9 01:29:26 2002
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nick7 itl.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: British renewables
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:26:09 -0000
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Hi all,

          You might be interested in this Press release from the British
Department of Trade and Industry about incentives for investment in wind,
wave, tidal, biomass etc power.


Nick Palmer

=============================================================
DTI Press Release, 4 January 2002:

 WILSON PREDICTS 2002 WILL BE 'THE YEAR OF RENEWABLES'

 Energy Minister Brian Wilson has predicted that 2002 will be "the
 year of renewables" in which the potential contribution of power
 generated from clean sources will finally be recognised in the UK.

 Mr Wilson said that the Government's Renewables Obligation, which
 comes into effect on April 1st, will transform the market for
 alternative generation. The Obligation will require the electricity
 companies to purchase a proportion of power from renewable sources at
 a premium price.

 At present, less than three per cent of electricity in the UK comes
 from renewables. The Government is committed to a ten per cent target
 by 2010.

 Mr Wilson revealed that regional targets are to be established
 through out the country to help ensure that reasonable expectations
 are set and monitored.

 The Government, said Mr Wilson, is investing #260 million in the
 development of renewable technologies over the next three years. In
 addition, the Renewables Obligation will guarantee at least a #750
 million market for electricity generated from renewable sources by
 2010.

 A substantial part of the funding earmarked by government will be
 dedicated in the year ahead to deployment of the first generation of
 the UK's off shore wind farms and energy crops power plants - two of
 the biggest potential growth areas.

 Mr Wilson said:

 "The opportunity now exists for potentially viable projects to gain
 the support and access that they need. I want to support each of the
 renewable technologies to the point of establishing which of them
 have viable futures in the UK context.

 "There are opportunities for very small projects, at community or
 even household level, and also for large ones. It is encouraging to
 see that some of our major companies are now making serious
 investments in renewables."

 He warned, however, that it was pointless to set more ambitious
 targets which, in the short term, are not capable of being met. Mr
 Wilson said: "I certainly want to see us aiming higher than ten per
 cent in the years beyond 2010. However, the reality is that we are
 starting from a low base it will take a lot of commitment, not least
 by government itself, to reach the 10%.

 Mr Wilson said that the Government would act to ensure that
 renewables projects are treated fairly by the planning system. He
 said:

 "This may involve a challenge to the integrity and consistency of
 some environmentalists. They cannot, on the one hand, say that the
 future lies with renewables but, on the other, that they will object
 to just about every specific project that comes forward."

 "There also has to be a sensible balance between encouraging
 renewables and recognising that, in the short term at least, this is
 going to increase the cost of electricity. That is a factor which
 cannot be ignored if public support is to be maintained."

 Mr Wilson stressed that investment in infrastructure is going to be
 necessary if the full potential of renewables is to be realised. He
 said: "We have inherited a distribution system which was built for a
 coal and steel economy. That has to be updated so as to strengthen
 the National Grid in those parts of the country which have the
 greatest potential in, for instance, wind and wave power. The current
 feasibility study, commissioned by the DTI, into a sub-sea cable
 along the western seaboard of the UK is a major step in that
 direction."

 Mr Wilson stressed that renewables can become the basis of a
 substantial manufacturing sector. "It should never be forgotten that
 we had world leadership in wind power 20 years ago but did next to
 nothing with it. The Danes took a different view and now have a #4
 billion per year manufacturing industry.

 "I am determined that the same thing should not happen with wave
 power, biomass and other technologies in which we are well placed to
 lead the world."


 http://www.dti.gov.uk


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan  9 05:59:00 2002
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Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 08:55:33 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Fuel cell car bandwagon begins to roll?
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Suddenly, everyone is talking about fuel cells. I sense a consensus, or a 
bandwagon effect.

See:

http://money.cnn.com/2002/01/09/autos/wires/cars_ap/

"Bush shifts car fuel focus

Administration to back fuel cells, ditch $1.5B efficient vehicle program."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan  9 10:23:59 2002
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http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/laser_hydrogen_020109-1.html

"When Masahiro Mori sees international petroleum supertankers
groan into Japan's Chiba, it must strike him, like many other
energy visionaries, as an absurd image: a hazardous product being
hauled thousands of miles across a potentially superior and
cleaner fuel, hydrogen. What makes Dr. Mori unique, however, is
what he imagines to be more sensible: hydrogen blasted out of
water by giant lasers in low Earth orbit."

More . . .

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan  9 10:52:36 2002
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Fuel cell car bandwagon begins to roll?
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:58:19 -0500
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So uhmmm, let me get this straight.

The gov. spends 1.8 billion dollars, and the automotive
companies come up with cars that can get 70mpg. But rather
than mass produce the car, a new program is suggested
to develop a hydrogen based car. Which will be available
in 10 years ( sounds kinda like what we heard 8 years
and 1.8 billion dollars ago ). And oh yes, while the big
3 struggle for 10 years to put hydrogen onboard a car, currently
available gas/electric hybrid cars are ignored. 

Meanwhile, those nifty ad's from "truckville" are
flashing by my telescreen, "Buy a new Ford Exploder,
5MPG city, 7MPG highway." Available today, of course.

Gee, do you suppose this means Shrub is turning Green?
It must be spring...

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 8:56 AM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Fuel cell car bandwagon begins to roll?


Suddenly, everyone is talking about fuel cells. I sense a consensus, or a 
bandwagon effect.

See:

http://money.cnn.com/2002/01/09/autos/wires/cars_ap/

"Bush shifts car fuel focus

Administration to back fuel cells, ditch $1.5B efficient vehicle program."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan  9 12:24:31 2002
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Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 15:20:52 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: RE: Fuel cell car bandwagon begins to roll?
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In a cynical frame of mind, Keith Nagel wrote:

>The gov. spends 1.8 billion dollars, and the automotive
>companies come up with cars that can get 70mpg. But rather
>than mass produce the car, a new program is suggested
>to develop a hydrogen based car. . . .

>. . . And oh yes, while the big
>3 struggle for 10 years to put hydrogen onboard a car, currently
>available gas/electric hybrid cars are ignored.

Yes, one does get the sense the administration prefers "concept cars" to 
actual cars-on-the-road. However, the auto companies and the government can 
afford to develop both hybrid and hydrogen fuel cell cars. If CF did not 
exist, I would favor pushing ahead with both, because it is impossible to 
predict which would be better. The cost of developing both would be offset 
by the savings if one turns out to be significantly better.

Absent CF, in the distant future fuel cells would be better because hybrid 
engines do pollute, albeit at lower levels than ordinary ICE.

As an interim measure before a hydrogen distribution network can be 
developed, they are talking about extracting hydrogen from ordinary 
gasoline. This would be more efficient than an ICE.

The GM concept car described here:

http://money.cnn.com/2002/01/08/autos/auto_tech/

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/environment/products/adv_tech/autonomy1_010702.html

. . . has many interesting advantages and features aside from the fuel 
cell. I applaud the idea of making a great leap forward in auto design, but 
as I said it can be risky. Customers often seem to prefer incremental change.

The fact that they can build things like this proves these big companies 
could tackle a radical change to CF in a relatively short time. I would 
guess 5 or 10 years from the day the first practical CF cell becomes 
available, the first CF cars could be sold.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan  9 13:51:46 2002
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Subject: RE: Fuel cell car bandwagon begins to roll?
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 16:58:08 -0500
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Hi Jed.

Yes, that car shown in the photo looks something like
the bat mobile. Just the thing for the soccer mom (grin).
OK, I know, it's for those "Early adopters" but still...

Maybe I am being overly cynical, having cars running
on H2 and having infrastructure to support them is
a good thing, IMHO. On the other hand, I met Roger Billings
at an IECEC conference about 10 years ago and that's
exactly what he was talking about/doing. I was under
the impression that what was missing was the infrastructure,
and that fuel cell design could be done incrementally.
As he was driving around in a hydrogen car, I couldn't
deny the reality of the device (grin). Of course, that's
me, and not industry. Perhaps after another 2 or 4 billion
the big three might be able to do the same...

I fear this is just another handout to the 
auto manufacturers, who will continue to sell us
the least efficient vehicles they can legally sell.
It is after all the most profitable for all involved.
As you say, if the Will was present conversion
could happen pretty quickly, so it's instructive
to watch the heel dragging and see where it's coming
from. 

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan  9 14:49:49 2002
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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Subject: Re: New Hydrogen Source
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	Dear People,

	A more sensible method is to use well known and well understood
photocatalytic effects and break water into H and O by use of optical
energy from 300 nm to 10 microns.  As a conservative  estimate a football
field size are times 2 can produce the hydrogen equivalent  of gasoline to
fuel 100 automobiles.   This may require a little coputation from the
peanut gallery, but how much covered are is that if we part cars under
it?
	Let me try to say that better;  how many automobies, light pick up
trucks and busses can you park under two football fields?

			J


On Wed, 9 Jan 2002, Terry Blanton wrote:

> http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/laser_hydrogen_020109-1.html
> 
> "When Masahiro Mori sees international petroleum supertankers
> groan into Japan's Chiba, it must strike him, like many other
> energy visionaries, as an absurd image: a hazardous product being
> hauled thousands of miles across a potentially superior and
> cleaner fuel, hydrogen. What makes Dr. Mori unique, however, is
> what he imagines to be more sensible: hydrogen blasted out of
> water by giant lasers in low Earth orbit."
> 
> More . . .
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan  9 16:04:57 2002
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In other energy related news,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16032-2002Jan8.html

Let's hope Ken Lay didn't offer ... financial advice in
those meetings. This would be bad.

"Gentleman, show me your heels."

K.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan  9 18:09:02 2002
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This site is interesting. It represents the electrostatic dual of the SMOT
device.

http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/elmotor.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan  9 20:17:51 2002
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Given that the charged and spin of the electron creates a field that interacts with
the Electrogravity (or Magnetogravity?) field, one can make a spinning "artificial
electron" with substantial charge, by charging up a disk or stack of  Lucite
(Plexiglas) disks separated with Teflon washers, with a Lucite shaft, using a Van de
Graaff or other means of putting a Net Negative Charge on this Rotor and spinning it
at various RPMs while it is mounted on a digital scale.

Acculab sells digital scales with 1.0 gram resolution in capacities up to 10 Kg or so.

A small reversible/variable speed battery-powered motor should suffice for 100-250
ft/second rotor rim speed.

Regards,   Frederick.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 10 00:57:13 2002
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Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 02:53:39 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: GM fuel cell concept car
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>See:
>
>http://money.cnn.com/2002/01/08/autos/auto_tech/
>
>This is several steps too far, I think. A first generation gadget 
>should try to emulate older versions, or the customers will be 
>frightened away.
>
>- Jed

Jed;

I suppose I should apologize for criticizing your posting about that 
energy extractor that utilizes hydrocarbons. I have seen that design 
previously, It is an interesting design, I suppose it would depend on 
the capital costs verses energy production.

With respect to the hydrogen car. The question is were are you going 
to get the hydrogen. If it is by the electrolysis of water, that just 
moves the pollution from the exhaust pipe to the power plant's stack. 
OTOH, there was a man who was interviewed on Coast to Coast AM who 
says that there is lots of research going on to produce hydrogen from 
alternative sources. There is some institute that is disseminating 
information on hydrogen production methods. Does anyone know who they 
are storing the hydrogen?

BTW, did any of you catch the Richard Hoagland interview on C to C 
Wednesday morning. The old boy just signed a contract with RKO to 
produce a movie on what I assumed was the Martian Face, and the 
efforts of the NASA elite to hush it up,  However there was a caller 
who knew Hoagland, and mentioned a F E machine that they had 
previously discussed. It sounded like Hoagland is planning on 
broaching that subject too, cool! I think that I'm going to write him 
a letter to see if I can help with this effort.

-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 10 03:24:25 2002
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----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 2:53 AM
Subject: Re: GM fuel cell concept car

Thomas Malloy wrote:
>
> With respect to the hydrogen car. The question is were are you going
> to get the hydrogen.

Coal Gasification-Methanol Production. The methanol can be used in existing engines,
or steam reformed on-board for fuel cell powered vehicles.

http://www.lanl.gov/projects/cctc/factsheets/estmn/csliquiddemo.html

http://www.lanl.gov/projects/cctc/factsheets/encol/encoaldemo.html

http://www.methanol.org/fuelcell/quotes/mfcvc.html

http://www.uni-stuttgart.de/sfb270/A6_E.htm

It's a matter of inertia, Thomas.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick







From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 10 07:39:38 2002
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Subject: Enron and energy policy
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16032-2002Jan8.html
>
>Let's hope Ken Lay didn't offer ... financial advice in
>those meetings. This would be bad.
>
>"Gentleman, show me your heels."

The role of Enron in shaping policy has been in the news from the start. In 
May 2001, in an article titled “Bush Task Force on Energy Worked in 
Mysterious Ways,” the New York Times reported: “Richard S. Shapiro, senior 
vice president of the Enron Corporation, a major Republican contributor and 
the nation’s largest trader of wholesale electricity and natural gas, said 
top executives from his firm spent half an hour with Mr. Cheney, but he 
could not tell how much this may have influenced the final report.”

Today the Times and other newspapers are lashing out:


January 10, 2002, "Joined at the Hip," By BOB HERBERT

"You'll have to look long and extremely hard to come up with an example of 
corporate treachery in the United States that's as horrible as the Enron 
debacle. This is a scandal with a very broad reach and it has some of the 
wise guys in the Bush administration and other top Republicans trembling in 
their penny loafers.

Enron was a bonanza for — whom else? — the folks at the top of the pyramid. 
. . .

. . . Enron is a case study in the dangers that will inevitably arise when 
unrestrained corporate greed is joined at the hip with the legalized 
bribery and influence-peddling that passes for government these days."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 10 07:41:34 2002
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Subject: Re: GM fuel cell concept car
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thomas malloy wrote:

>With respect to the hydrogen car. The question is were are you going to 
>get the hydrogen. If it is by the electrolysis of water, that just moves 
>the pollution from the exhaust pipe to the power plant's stack.

It is still an improvement, at least in some cases:

1. About a quarter of electricity comes from non-polluting sources such as 
hydro and nuclear. In 20 or 30 years, we could derive all electricity and 
vehicle fuel from wind power, if we have the political will to do it.

2. Power plant pollution is monitored and controlled better than the 
average automobile. It is point source pollution, which is easier to deal with.

3. Overall efficiency for fossil fuels can be higher, or lower, depending 
on how it is done.

The best method is to reformulate natural gas. This converts 3.6 units of 
energy into 1.0 unit of vehicle propulsion. The worst possible method, 
which no one would consider, is to use fossil fuel to generate electricity, 
to perform electrolysis, to make hydrogen, which is finally burned in an 
ICE. This uses 71.9 units fossil fuel energy for 1.0 unit of propulsion.

By comparison, a conventional ICE converts 9.5 units crude oil to 1.0 unit 
propulsion. Fossil fuel => electricity => fuel cell => propulsion takes 
12.9 units.

Source: "Hydrogen Program Plan, FY 1993 - 1997," DoE.

Fuel cell efficiency in this document is 50%, which seems a little low. 
That according to PG&E and EPRI.

- Jed

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----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas malloy" <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: GM fuel cell concept car

Thomas wrote:
>
> Hum, Frederick makes my point that this technology just moves the
> pollution from the tail pipe to a power plant's stack. IMHO, this is
> a classic governmental feel good fix, that fixes nothing.
> --
Sad, but true Thomas. However it's consumer market-pull and big energy interests that
dictates public policy.

But there is another way to skin the cat.

Make it a matter of public policy that for every ton of fossil fuel carbon produced, a
ton of biomass carbon has to be buried in a Wyoming land fill. That way in about 20
years you can pull pipeline quality "natural gas" out of the landfill and market it,
too.  :-)

Regards,  Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 10 12:31:23 2002
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Subject: Re: Fuel cell car bandwagon begins to roll?
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 07:17:48 +1100
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Wed, 09 Jan 2002 08:55:33 -0500:

>Suddenly, everyone is talking about fuel cells. I sense a consensus, or a 
>bandwagon effect.
>
>See:
>
>http://money.cnn.com/2002/01/09/autos/wires/cars_ap/
>
>"Bush shifts car fuel focus
>
>Administration to back fuel cells, ditch $1.5B efficient vehicle program."
>
>- Jed
This drive by the power elite toward hydrogen fuel has been evident for
the last 5-10 years. The reasoning behind it is that they are well aware
that we are running out of affordable (in the energy recovery sense)
petroleum, and have been casting around for a substitute that can be
centrally manufactured and sold to the public in general, such that fuel
monopoly control is maintained. In short they don't want John Q Public
to get out from under the thumb.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 11 04:36:21 2002
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Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 07:32:45 -0800
Subject: New Tesla Coil Monographs by Correas
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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Dear Colleague,

We would like to bring to your attention the following two monographs,
newly released by AKRONOS Publishing on its website,
http://www.aetherometry.com:


 Monograph AS2-13: 
 Correa, P & Correa, A (1998, 2001)
 (Re-)examination of the energy radiation output by Tesla coils, Part 1:
 Experimental determination of its dual nature

 Monograph AS2-14: 
 Correa, P & Correa, A (1999, 2001)
 Aetherometric treatment of the energy radiation output by Tesla coils, Part
2:
 Massfree and massbound nonelectromagnetic functions
 and resultant characteristic electromagnetic frequency of the coil


Detailed abstracts, together with ordering information, are available at

    http://www.aetherometry.com/abs-AS2v2A.html#abstractAS2-13  and
    http://www.aetherometry.com/abs-AS2v2A.html#abstractAS2-14

A short summary follows below.


Tesla coils have now, for over a century, been objects of great wonder and
also mystery.  Tesla himself employed their principle in his famous patent
for wireless power transmission.  Yet, despite attempts by a few dedicated
experimenters (R. Hull, the Corums) who have proposed new theoretical
approaches to the operation of these devices, the coil has remained
essentially miscomprehended, precisely because it superimposes two distinct
oscillatory electric fields, one associated with massbound charge and the
other with massfree charge.  Moreover, the coil outputs neither
electromagnetic radiation, nor an ion field.  The basic demonstration of
these stunning facts is carried out in these monographs, where aetherometric
experimental and theoretical tools are employed to differentiate, on the
basis of fundamental physical effects, the ambipolar massfree radiation
of Tesla waves from the radiative effects of photons - whether ionizing,
HFOT or LFOT photons - as well as from the monopolar electric field effects
of ion fluxes or electrostatic charges.

These reports establish, from basic scientific facts, the existence of a
longitudinal, massfree, electric ambipolar form of energy radiation which
is emitted from these coils, and provide the fundamental tools for
aetherometric analysis of their operation.  This leads the authors to a
demonstration of the correct physical meaning of such basic functions as
inductance and the characteristic frequency of the coil, laying the
foundations for what will become the complete aetherometric analysis of
Tesla coils carried out in companion papers AS-15 and AS2-16. The
fundamental 
magnetic and electric frequency functions of the massfree and massbound
currents are identified.  And an exact aetherometric proof that the electric
wavespeed of the ambipolar radiation known as Tesla waves is not bound by c
and typically exceeds it, is provided.

These two essays - AS2-13 and AS2-14 - are precisely what is needed before
one can understand longitudinal, ambipolar, massfree radiation as something
distinct from electromagnetism or photon energy.


Yours,

Laura McFinlay
Akronos Publishing



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 11 08:24:06 2002
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Subject: ANS endorses Yucca Mountain repository
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Subject: NEWS RELEASE: ANS Welcomes Abraham's Endorsement of Yucca Mountain

Contact: Dave Kelly
dkelly ans.org
(708) 579-8224
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

ANS Welcomes Abraham's Endorsement of Yucca Mountain

LA GRANGE PARK, IL, January 10, 2002--Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham's 
endorsement of Yucca Mountain as a suitable repository for spent nuclear 
fuel and high-level nuclear waste is a giant step toward solving one of the 
most controversial issues involving nuclear energy, says the American 
Nuclear Society.

*We have high confidence that Yucca Mountain is a suitable site, and we 
applaud the Department of Energy's recommendation to proceed with the next 
stage of repository development * the application of a license for 
repository construction,* said ANS Vice President/President-Elect Harold B. 
Ray. *The pre-closure and post-closure assessments of Yucca Mountain 
convince us that the combination of site and design features provide public 
health protection with a considerable margin of safety.*

Following the adoption of the Nuclear Waste Policy Act of 1982, DOE was 
directed to find a site for disposing highly radioactive materials. Many 
scientists have concluded that storing such material deep underground is 
the safest method.

The Yucca Mountain site, located about 90 miles northwest of Las Vegas, 
Nev., is situated in a mountain range with a unique combination of rock 
characteristics and an extremely deep water table (800 to 1,000 feet below 
the level of the repository). It has undergone years of study by 
scientists, engineers and other nuclear experts. One such study was the 
Yucca Mountain Preliminary Site Suitability Evaluation (PSSE), which 
incorporated the most recent data from field and laboratory experiments, 
and examined many alternative models that have never before been explored.

Work performed by the DOE, national laboratories and other government 
agencies such as the U.S. Geological Survey and the Environmental 
Protection Agency provided an impressive comprehensive collection of 
interdisciplinary studies and reports. These studies concluded that the 
Yucca Mountain site is well suited to become the nation's first geological 
repository.

*We're confident that the DOE has selected and characterized a site that, 
with appropriate engineering design and operation, can meet with high 
confidence the regulatory standard for public health and safety,* said Ray. 
*The PSSE shows that the site can meet the post-closure standard, and the 
analyses indicate that pre-closure health and safety protection are more 
than adequate.*

ANS' confidence on the Yucca Mountain site is based on several factors, 
including:

--The project has demonstrated that the natural features of Yucca Mountain 
contribute very significantly to public health protection;

--The project has adopted a highly robust engineered barrier system 
employing multiple, independent barriers to provide long-term confinement 
of radionuclides; and

--DOE and the Nuclear Regulatory Commission will continue to conduct 
additional research and monitoring activities over the next several decades 
to further bolster confidence in the safety of the repository.

*We applaud the DOE for conducting such a credible interdisciplinary 
analysis demonstrating suitability of the Yucca Mountain site for this 
nation's high-level geological repository, and we are prepared to 
contribute to the next step of Yucca Mountain,* said Ray. *It's clear the 
time has come for the administration to prepare a license application to 
the NRC for permission to construct and operate Yucca Mountain. This is an 
important step for the future of nuclear energy.*

ANS, established in 1954, is a professional organization of scientists and 
engineers devoted to the peaceful applications of nuclear science and 
technology. Its 11,000 members come from diverse technical disciplines 
ranging from physics and nuclear safety to operations and power, and from 
across the full spectrum of the national and international nuclear 
enterprise, including government, academia, research laboratories and 
private industry. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 11 13:45:09 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Ireland building huge wind farm
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See:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1755000/1755413.stm

Ireland is building a 520 MW offshort wind farm, in the Irish Sea south of 
Dublin. It will have with 200 towers, so they must be the latest, largest 
2.5 MW units, which produce roughly 90 MW average year-round. The cost is 
$630 million. It should supply 10% of the nation's electricity.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 11 17:28:16 2002
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Subject:  DAN AYKROYD NEEDS YOUR HELP
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:25:24 -0500
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 The following was taken from www.scifi.com.
*************************************

 DAN AYKROYD NEEDS YOUR HELP


Dan Aykroyd's Out There - a new SCI FI series exploring the supernatural,
the paranormal and the unexplained - is taping right now in New York and
needs you as a phone-in guest.

This week we're looking for people with an opinion or question on the
following topics:
Time Travel through Hypnotic Regression

Psychic Detectives

Numerology

Human Cloning and Immortality

Hollow Earth Theories

Zero Point Energy and the Hutchison Effect

Secret Underground Bases
If you've got something to say about any of these topics, e-mail us
immediately at outthere www.scifi.com. A representative of the show will
contact you...and may put you on the air with Dan Aykroyd!

Future topics:

Authenticating UFO Photos and Videos

Ancient Technology/Lost Secrets

NASA and UFOs

Sex and Offspring with Aliens

The Philadelphia Experiment

Floriday Skunk Ape (Big Foot)

The Mothman

Ancient Cultures in North America

Ghostbusters/Transmediums

Healing Hands

Psychic Pets

Crop Circles, Stone Circles, and Geomancy

Conspiracies (UFO, etc.)

Free Energy

Spiritualism



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 11 19:08:38 2002
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Jan 11, 2002
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 14:39:36 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 11 Jan 02   Washington, DC

1. NUCLEAR TESTING: WHATEVER HAPPENED TO STOCKPILE STEWARDSHIP? 
In 1999, 32 physics Nobel laureates signed a letter bluntly
concluding that "continued nuclear testing is not required to
retain confidence in the safety, reliability and performance of
weapons in the stockpile, provided the science and technology
programs necessary for stockpile stewardship are maintained" (WN
8 Oct 99).  The American Physical Society had taken the same
position http://www.aps.org/statements/97.2.html .  The United
States has now spent tens of billions of dollars developing the
necessary programs.  Since no other country has this capability,
the US would seem to have the most to lose by a resumption of
testing.  So what's behind the administration's position?  While
reliability can be ensured without testing, new weapons can't be
developed.  That's good for non-proliferation, but bad if, as is
widely believed, the real agenda is to develop a new generation
of mini-nukes, more powerful than conventional bombs, but in a
much smaller package, for attacking underground bunkers.

2. THE MORATORIUM: WHATEVER HAPPENED TO CONGRESS?  A moratorium
on testing, imposed by the senior Bush, has been upheld by both
Republican and Democratic administrations for almost a decade.
The irony of abandoning the moratorium in order to develop a new
class of weapons to attack terrorists that would be ideally
suited for use by terrorists is not lost.  Yesterday, Rep. Edward
Markey (D-MA) sent a "Dear Colleague" letter to other members of
Congress asking them to add their names to a letter urging the
President to pledge not to develop new nuclear weapons or resume
underground testing.  It would be good if all members of Congress
heard from constituents, particularly scienctists, on this issue. 

3. ARMS REDUCTION: UH, BETTER ON THE SHELF THAN ON MISSILES. 
While abandoning the ABM treaty, the Administration announced it
would cut nuclear weapons from 6,000 to 3,800.  Now we find that
doesn't mean reducing the number of warheads, just putting them
in storage.  Well, if warheads were always kept separate from
missiles, it would be a safer world, but Russia isn't pleased. 
In related news, a new intelligence estimate that the US is more
likely to suffer an attack with weapons of mass destruction by
terrorists using planes, trains or trucks than by countries using
long-range missiles.  The new estimate will enter the debate over
administration plans to spend $8B on missile defense this year.

4. YUCCA MOUNTAIN: DOE APPROVES CONSTRUCTION OF STORAGE FACILITY.
It won't end the debate.  The political war is just beginning.

ERRATUM: WN is grateful to the many readers who took the trouble
to point out that the iodine isotope of greatest concern in power
plant accidents is I-131, not I-125 as we reported (WN 4 Jan 02).

THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY and THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND.
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
American Physical Society or the University, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 11 19:33:02 2002
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Reply to this one on vortex, Robin.

Thanks.

Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 11 19:51:17 2002
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ok

On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> Reply to this one on vortex, Robin.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Frederick
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 11 20:54:36 2002
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: Mail Test.

Thanks, John. And Happy New Year!

Regards,   Frederick


> ok
> 
> On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> > Reply to this one on vortex, Robin.
> > 
> > Thanks.
> > 
> > Frederick
> > 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 11 22:20:48 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 17:17:33 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:30:02
-0600:

>Reply to this one on vortex, Robin.

Works fine thanks Fred.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 12 06:57:13 2002
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Subject: Re: Ireland building huge wind farm
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 15:09:42 -0000
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Jed - Living over here ( Ireland) It appears a great idea - Prior head
Honcho of one of our semi state energy companies is behind it.
BUT- Surely wind blows randomly -OK more in winter etc - but how do you
store wind energy ? - if they were going to make H2 well maybe but maybe it
will be exported on this new Euro Elec Grid?
----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 9:41 PM
Subject: Ireland building huge wind farm


> See:
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1755000/1755413.stm
>
> Ireland is building a 520 MW offshort wind farm, in the Irish Sea south of
> Dublin. It will have with 200 towers, so they must be the latest, largest
> 2.5 MW units, which produce roughly 90 MW average year-round. The cost is
> $630 million. It should supply 10% of the nation's electricity.
>
> - Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 12 07:05:19 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Archenemy of CF in trouble
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See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/12/education/12UCON.html

January 12, 2002

UConn Officials Consider Dismissing Physics Professor

By PAUL ZIELBAUER

QUOTES:

HARTFORD, Jan. 10 — Moshe Gai arrived at the University of Connecticut in
1994 as the man whose reputation and talent as a nuclear physicist would
bring some much-needed renown to a physics department in need of a star.
Now, seven years and several internecine battles later, he may become the
university's first tenured professor in 18 years to be fired. 

The University of Connecticut lured Dr. Gai away from Yale, where he won
national attention for helping to debunk an acclaimed theory of
low-temperature nuclear fusion. But Dr. Gai, 52, says he is being vilified
for executing the difficult mission he was hired to fulfill: turning a
backwater of a department into a ranked player in the insular world of
nuclear physics — and, if necessary, ruffling a few feathers. . . .

END QUOTES

We should write to the Times and tell them he never debunked anything. It
is not likely they would print the letter, but you never know.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 12 07:33:04 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Ireland building huge wind farm
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Noel Whitney wrote:

>Jed - Living over here ( Ireland) It appears a great idea - Prior head
>Honcho of one of our semi state energy companies is behind it.
>BUT- Surely wind blows randomly -OK more in winter etc - but how do you
>store wind energy ?

You don't. Wind is somewhat intermittent, so you make up for that with
other "dispatchable" generators such as natural gas turbines. Actually,
this is not much more of a problem than its opposite: nuclear or coal are
too steady. Electricity demand fluctuates too, especially when things like
blast furnaces turn on and off. A coal fired plant cannot suddenly increase
its output, so the power companies use large batteries and small
dispatchable generators.

When wind supplies 10% to 20% of power (as it does in Denmark and parts of
Germany) it is no problem making up for fluctuations with gas turbines or
hydroelectricity. I think if it were to supply 40% to 100% you would need
something like stored hydrogen fuel cells, where the hydrogen is generated
when supply exceeds demand, at night for example. With hydrogen
transportation, you would generate 200% to 300% of the power you need for
electricity, and convert most of it to hydrogen.

A large wind farm is located in a windy location, well above ground where
the wind seldom stops altogether. It usually generates some level of power.
When it is time to repair or perform maintenance, workers shut down one or
two turbines at a time out of the array. When they maintain a coal or
nuclear plant, on the other hand, they usually have to shut the entire
thing down. This is very expensive, so workers try to repair equipment "on
the fly" (while it is in use). This caused the Three Mile Island accident
and others.

This is a 520 MW array, but it will seldom produce that much. That is the
so-called "nameplate" capacity. On average, year-round wind farm production
is about 28% of the "nameplate" power in Germany, and ~34% in Wales.
Offshore production is more steady than land-based arrays, maintenance
costs are lower, and the equipment lasts longer. Nuclear plants produce 85%
to 95% of "nameplate" capacity on average, year-round. (Some sources quote
85%, some 95%.) Nuclear plants are run most intensively, day and night, to
supply baseline power. This is because the capital costs are very high, but
the fuel is cheap. Aeroderivative gas turbines are quickest to turn on and
off, I think. Small, unmanned 1 MW gas turbine generators are becoming
popular.

All this is marvelous, but it will be obsolescent a week after the first
successful easily replicated CF experiment.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 12 09:10:41 2002
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Subject: Re: Ireland building huge wind farm
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: Ireland building huge wind farm

Jed wrote:


> Noel Whitney wrote:
>
> >Jed - Living over here ( Ireland) It appears a great idea - Prior head
> >Honcho of one of our semi state energy companies is behind it.
> >BUT- Surely wind blows randomly -OK more in winter etc - but how do you
> >store wind energy ?
>
> You don't.

You can, by using pumped or fused-salt thermal storage or,  if you store the hydrogen
(at 25 kW-hr./lb) from electrolyzed water by anhydrous ammonia synthesis:

3 H2 (6 Lbs) + N2 (28 lbs)---> 2 NH3  (34 lbs) + some heat loss

Or Hydrogenation of CO2 to Methanol:

3 H2 + CO2 ---> CH3OH (32 lbs) + H2O + heat loss

The anhydrous ammonia can be used as a fertilizer for food production as is, or
reacted with CO2 to make Urea for
a chemical feedstock or fertilizer:

2 NH3 + CO2 --->  NH2-CO-NH2 (88 lbs of Urea) + H2O.

At $0.10/kw-hr that puts the cost of Electrolyzed Hydrogen at a mere $2.50/lb.

OTOH, the easily storable Methanol can be used to run
methanol-fueled engines or fuel cells.
>
> All this is marvelous, but it will be obsolescent a week after the first
> successful easily replicated CF experiment.

In the meantime... :-)

Regards,   Frederick
>
> - Jed
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 12 12:31:10 2002
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Hydrogen can be produced in a variety of ways. Water is 11.2 percent hydrogen by
weight, and its relative abundance makes it an attractive source. However,
conventional water electrolysis requires a constant supply of electricity to deliver
efficiencies of, at best, 65 percent. New high pressure electrolysis processes allow
problem-free connection to fluctuating current, making it practical to use wind or
photovoltaic electricity sources.

Its atomic number is 1 on the periodic table of elements. It's the most abundant and
the lightest known element in the universe and is also the simplest atom with a
solitary electron orbiting its proton nucleus. Hydrogen is also swiftly becoming
Number 1 on the list of possible alternatives vying to replace gas and diesel as the
major transportation fuel. Hydrogen seems appropriate considering that one kilogram of
hydrogen delivers the equivalent amount of energy as 2.1 kilograms of natural gas or
2.8 kilograms of gasoline.


http://www.theautochannel.com/content/news/press/date/19991201/press003849.html

http://www.stuartenergy.com/hydrogen/hydrogenfaq.asp

http://www.kfa-juelich.de/iwv/e-regen.html

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 12 13:15:07 2002
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	Dear Vo,
	I need to put out an All Points bulletin REQUEST FOR INFORMATION
	PLEASE
	I need to know who makes 
	_________________________________________
	900 Mhz  Digital Spread Spectrum
	ONE WATT  Wireless Telephone

	________________________________________
==========================================================
!!!!	NOT the 2.4 gig ....not  Not NOT NO 2.4 Gig NO NOT
!!!	NOT cellphone NOT NOT NOT
=========================================================
	Must operate the max at 1 watt to 900 milliwatts both from the
base and the hand set	PLEASE
	AND:	Where to buy
	AND:	Has anyone pulled the amplifier modules from them?
			Thanks MUCH


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 12 14:45:56 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Ireland building huge wind farm
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 09:39:21 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Noel Whitney's message of Sat, 12 Jan 2002 15:09:42 -0000:

>Jed - Living over here ( Ireland) It appears a great idea - Prior head
>Honcho of one of our semi state energy companies is behind it.
>BUT- Surely wind blows randomly -OK more in winter etc - but how do you
>store wind energy ? - if they were going to make H2 well maybe but maybe it
>will be exported on this new Euro Elec Grid?

Indeed the way to make wind energy work is to have lots of widely
dispersed wind farms contributing to the grid, so that lulls in the wind
average out.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 12 17:57:16 2002
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Subject: Re: 900 MHz APB
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Walmart sells 900 MHz Analog Cordless Phone sets for about $20.00, John.  :-)

Regards,   Frederick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 12 19:59:54 2002
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Subject: Re: 900 MHz APB
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At 06:54 PM 1/12/02 -0600, you wrote:
>Walmart sells 900 MHz Analog Cordless Phone sets for about $20.00, John.  :-)
>
>Regards,   Frederick

Yes but TX power is less then 1mW


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 12 20:26:47 2002
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Subject: Re: 900 MHz APB  Thanks.... but Require DSS and one watt 
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	Dear Fred,

	
	I am looking for something  different. 
	
	I am going to use the transmitter in the instrument for telemetry.
	

  I will touch on the points again:

	1)	Spread Spectrum.  Often called DSS for  

			Digital Spread Spectrum.

	2)	900 Mhz.   Usually the Digital Spread Spectrum operates by

		A)	Frequency hopping..... in which case the
transmissions will occur at a number of frequencies Above 900 MHz
				OR
		B)	A spread spectrum technique nominally centered at
one frequency but actually occupying RF power in a range either above, or
below or above and below the center frequency with the actual power at any
specific frequency often being very low if averaged over the time period
of one second.

		C)	1 watt to 900 milliwatts transmit power from both the
hand set and base set.  One Watt is the maximum FCC allows and some
manufacturers back off to 900 milliwatts and this would be OK.
	Some manufacturers will not put a full power Transmit Power
Amplifier in both sections of the instrument.


little 

On Sat, 12 Jan 2002, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> Walmart sells 900 MHz Analog Cordless Phone sets for about $20.00, John.  :-)
> 
> Regards,   Frederick


	NOTE:

	The original communication reads:

	_________________________________	


        900 Mhz  Digital Spread Spectrum
        ONE WATT  Wireless Telephone

	_________________________________	

	This is Different than " 900 MHz Analog Cordless Phone sets "


	The Spread Spectrum method allows for greater range at the maximum
alllowed power.   The interference noise possibility is even greater than
the difference between AM and FM commercial radio.


	Thanks for the tip.   I may call or go down there and see if they
have any of the high power digital phones.
	So far in several hours of web work I have only found one
manufacturer which actually will specify the output power.  This was a
really nice minus 106 dBel input referred noise receive and 900 milliwatts
Transmit on BOTH parts.   The price, at 350 USD was higher than I hoped to
find.


				John

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Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 17:10:12 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: hydrogen storage
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>
>OTOH, the easily storable Methanol can be used to run
>methanol-fueled engines or fuel cells.
>  >

This reminds me of a question, how are the auto makers storing 
hydrogen? High pressure tanks?
-- 

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>
>
>We should write to the Times and tell them he never debunked anything. It
>is not likely they would print the letter, but you never know.
>
>- Jed

There you go Jed, send them your letter on C F !
-- 

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Got to drop for a couple months folks.

talk to ya later

Cheers :-)


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 13 18:55:25 2002
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Archenemy of CF in trouble
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 21:55:22 -0500
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On Sunday 13 January 2002 06:10 pm, thomas malloy wrote:
> >We should write to the Times and tell them he never debunked anything. It
> >is not likely they would print the letter, but you never know.
> >
> >- Jed
>
> There you go Jed, send them your letter on C F !

Gee whiz, and none of us had to do a thing.  Da Luddite hung himself.....
...............all by himself.  LIke Stan Laurel said to Oliver Hardy :"It 
could'nt happen to a 'nicer' guy!"       har   har   har
Someday some Japanese guy is gonna get up, get ready, cook
breakfast in his CF powered house and drive to work in his CF
powered car, and pass by a statue of  Mssrs Pons and Fleishmann
in a square in Kobe not far from the flowered clock.  He might
say to himself:  "But for them and help from my countrymen we might
not have acheived energy independance!"
Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 13 19:14:56 2002
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: anti-matter
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 22:17:08 -0500
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Hi all,
	Numerous articles have appeared in the last few years about
quantum entanglements.  The underlying theme here is that by the use
of these, particles and maybe larger items can be 'transmitted' over
space.  Suppose whilst in transit, the signal was processed by, say
superconducting magnets or modulating waves so as to 'rotate' the
quantum numbers of the particle to be reconstituted at the other end.
And suppose the resulting particle at the other end was an anti-photon
or some other anti-particle.
	A recent post on CNN referenced a NASA site that explored
the possibility of anti-matter's use as a rocket fuel but lamented an
inability to produce it in usable quantities.  Now if the above were possible
without the expenditure of enormous amounts of energy.........
     ......................any ideas?

Standing Bear

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 13 19:42:59 2002
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
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Subject: Re: Archenemy of CF in trouble
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	Who is the  Archenemy of CF ?
	and why are they in trouble?

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002, thomas malloy wrote:

> >
> >
> >We should write to the Times and tell them he never debunked anything. It
> >is not likely they would print the letter, but you never know.
> >
> >- Jed
> 
> There you go Jed, send them your letter on C F !
> -- 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 01:28:53 2002
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From: "Noel Whitney" <quantum iol.ie>
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Subject: Re: Ireland building huge wind farm
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 09:41:27 -0000
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Jed - I agree its down the tubes as soon as a Cf break akes place.

What news on the Blacklight Power scene ?
Is he getting anywhere or just continuing to go for new patents on new
materials etc\?
What deliverable time for a " Product/Process" has he given to The big
investors - Pacific Light and Power ?/

Hope u are keeping well.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: Ireland building huge wind farm


> Noel Whitney wrote:
>
> >Jed - Living over here ( Ireland) It appears a great idea - Prior head
> >Honcho of one of our semi state energy companies is behind it.
> >BUT- Surely wind blows randomly -OK more in winter etc - but how do you
> >store wind energy ?
>
> You don't. Wind is somewhat intermittent, so you make up for that with
> other "dispatchable" generators such as natural gas turbines. Actually,
> this is not much more of a problem than its opposite: nuclear or coal are
> too steady. Electricity demand fluctuates too, especially when things like
> blast furnaces turn on and off. A coal fired plant cannot suddenly
increase
> its output, so the power companies use large batteries and small
> dispatchable generators.
>
> When wind supplies 10% to 20% of power (as it does in Denmark and parts of
> Germany) it is no problem making up for fluctuations with gas turbines or
> hydroelectricity. I think if it were to supply 40% to 100% you would need
> something like stored hydrogen fuel cells, where the hydrogen is generated
> when supply exceeds demand, at night for example. With hydrogen
> transportation, you would generate 200% to 300% of the power you need for
> electricity, and convert most of it to hydrogen.
>
> A large wind farm is located in a windy location, well above ground where
> the wind seldom stops altogether. It usually generates some level of
power.
> When it is time to repair or perform maintenance, workers shut down one or
> two turbines at a time out of the array. When they maintain a coal or
> nuclear plant, on the other hand, they usually have to shut the entire
> thing down. This is very expensive, so workers try to repair equipment "on
> the fly" (while it is in use). This caused the Three Mile Island accident
> and others.
>
> This is a 520 MW array, but it will seldom produce that much. That is the
> so-called "nameplate" capacity. On average, year-round wind farm
production
> is about 28% of the "nameplate" power in Germany, and ~34% in Wales.
> Offshore production is more steady than land-based arrays, maintenance
> costs are lower, and the equipment lasts longer. Nuclear plants produce
85%
> to 95% of "nameplate" capacity on average, year-round. (Some sources quote
> 85%, some 95%.) Nuclear plants are run most intensively, day and night, to
> supply baseline power. This is because the capital costs are very high,
but
> the fuel is cheap. Aeroderivative gas turbines are quickest to turn on and
> off, I think. Small, unmanned 1 MW gas turbine generators are becoming
> popular.
>
> All this is marvelous, but it will be obsolescent a week after the first
> successful easily replicated CF experiment.
>
> - Jed
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 02:51:54 2002
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Subject: Re: hydrogen storage
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Thomas - yes high pressure tanks with Extreme levels of high tech insulation
which I think they now have down to approx 50mm thick and the hydrogen is
liquid.

Despite Stanley Meyer being the greatest Con man going he had the Philosophy
right in that the place for Hydrogen storage is in water in the vehicles
tank and do the cracking at the point of use. This is still where my
interests still lie and there is hope on the horizon .
----- Original Message -----
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 11:10 PM
Subject: hydrogen storage


> >
> >OTOH, the easily storable Methanol can be used to run
> >methanol-fueled engines or fuel cells.
> >  >
>
> This reminds me of a question, how are the auto makers storing
> hydrogen? High pressure tanks?
> --
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 03:49:28 2002
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
Message-ID: <3e.17967c6c.29741f08 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 06:46:16 EST
Subject: Free Energy - Free Hydrogen productuion - Free Energy
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Free Energy is now possible through science.

New Technology Plasma Motor Cracks the hydrogen from water - For FREE.

Warning - this information may drive the price of water up.

Crack the hydrogen out of water - FOR FREE.

Recent trends indicate that the automotive industry is going to attempt to 
switch to hydrogen fuel and still maintain their current energy market with 
hydrogen filling stations.  I offer the three following options, however 
others exist.
1: Plant hydrogen production.  Keep current market position and transport 
Hydrogen to individual filling stations.  Market position maintained by oil 
companies.
2: Hydrogen production and storage at each filling station - no transport 
needed.  Market position maintained by oil companies.

3: On Demand - Homebased or Onboard vehicle production of hydrogen requires 
no filling station, no transport or storage of excess hydrogen.  Hydrogen is 
produced only as needed and all that is required is:
A: Water
B: Possibly Nitrogen for a chamber fill gas, which is slightly more costly 
than water
Unfortunately, number three means the collapse of the oil based economy, and 
possibly a $1000 per gallon tax on water - but I have more pressing problems 
to consider right now. 

My plasma based technology produces high energy plasma as a side effect of 
Motor operation.  FREE PLASMA with which to use, FOR FREE.  While high 
efficiency mechanical power is produced by the electrical motor to drive the 
car - a regulated water stream is shot into the plasma producing Hydrogen by 
plasma cracking of the water.  No hydrogen storage is needed, only produce 
Hydrogen as required and limit gas buildup which can explode, as is warned in 
oil company proposed technology.  With my system, Hydrogen can be safely 
produced and directed to fuel cells, or burned in a small combustion motor to 
produce more power or electricity, as a hybrid system.  If this is hard to 
understand - please see the below websites that describe other uses of plasma.

<A HREF="http://www.rense.com/general12/hazard.htm">
http://www.rense.com/general12/hazard.htm</A>  Government project
<A HREF="http://atr.site.org/avp/pat_power_gen.html">
http://atr.site.org/avp/pat_power_gen.html</A>       Private project

Electrolysis and current plasma production are costly and each consume 
energy, my system is clean and produces mechanical power as well as FREE 
ENERGY by producing FREE HYDROGEN because FREE PLASMA is produced at no 
additional cost.  NO other system can claim this.

Plasma is the key to multiple technologies - and could unlock our future for 
the better
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html">
http://members.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html</A> Videos of high energy Plasma

- Or you can keep burning fossil and nuclear fuels.  The question is, do you 
really want - Free Energy?

Best Regards,
Chris Arnold

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 06:49:34 2002
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Hi,

I was wondering what the background of most of the readers here
were, are we all physicists, or mathematicians, or renaissance men?

The reason I ask is that shortly (within the next few weeks) I'm
going to be publishing the first book (online) of a series that
introduces a new model and way of reasoning about the laws of nature.
What I'd love to do is run it by a handful of intelligent people
and be able to discuss it with them. Is this list appropriate for
this?

Joe

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 08:09:27 2002
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From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Standing Bear wrote:

>         A recent post on CNN referenced a NASA site that explored
> the possibility of anti-matter's use as a rocket fuel but lamented an
> inability to produce it in usable quantities.  Now if the above were possible
> without the expenditure of enormous amounts of energy.........
>      ......................any ideas?

There's a conspiracy book by Dan Brown called "Angels & Demons"
where a CERN research successfully extracts antiparticles from
the aether by the spontaneous creation of particle/antiparticle
pairs.  

I understand it might also possible to "filter" antiparticles
when these virtual particles burst into existance near a black
hole event horizon.

Terry

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thomas malloy wrote:
> 
> >
> >OTOH, the easily storable Methanol can be used to run
> >methanol-fueled engines or fuel cells.
> >  >
> 
> This reminds me of a question, how are the auto makers storing
> hydrogen? High pressure tanks?
> --

Well, it does fit nicely within the crystalline cell of certain
metals  ;-)

I recall a PBS presentation where metal hydrides were used to
store hydrogen within a vehicle.  It had one great advantage over
high pressure storage only which the program demonstrated
dramatically by firing bullets in to both types of storage
tanks.  The advantage of the slow out-gassing of the metal
hydride was quite obvious.

I don't know what came of the metal hydride storage system. 
Maybe they found some anomalous heat?

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 09:36:07 2002
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Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 11:34:24 -0600
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>Thomas - yes high pressure tanks with Extreme levels of high tech insulation
>which I think they now have down to approx 50mm thick and the hydrogen is
>liquid.

Really, I would think that liquid hydrogen would be frightfully 
difficult to handle, on top of that it's explosive.

>
>Despite Stanley Meyer being the greatest Con man going

Stan was indeed that. If someone ever builds a hall of shame for F E 
hucksters, Stan should have a prominent place.

>  he had the Philosophy
>right in that the place for Hydrogen storage is in water in the vehicles
>tank and do the cracking at the point of use. This is still where my
>interests still lie and there is hope on the horizon .
>
Great, all you have to do is figure out how to get the three atoms 
apart. It looks as though Xogen has bitten the dust, the last I 
heard, Talthus Resources, a major stakeholder in Xogen was in big 
trouble. Have you heard anything?

-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 09:40:44 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: N. Y. Times editorial features hydrogen
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Hydrogen fuel cells seem to be on everyone's mind these days. One of todays 
three main editorials in the New York Times is devoted to it. It echoes 
some of the comments made here. (As usual, Vortex is ahead of the game, and 
far ahead of the Times.)

Someone asked about hydrogen storage. The 1997 NREL Hydrogen Program Plan 
lists:

High pressure storage for gas
High pressure liquid state (cryogenic, like LNG)
Activated carbon - seems most promising
Metal hydride, esp. "polyhydride complexes based on cobalt and other 
transition metals"

Interesting quote: "The volumetric storage density of hydrogen absorbed on 
a solid can actually be higher than compressed gas storage . . .  The 
gravimetric and volumetric energy densities achievable from activated 
carbon systems are comparable to liquid hydrogen systems Experimental 
storage capacities have exceeded the 4 wt% level, which is equivalent to 
the corresponding volumetric storage density of liquid hydrogen, and 
additional improvements are possible. . . ."

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 09:40:50 2002
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Subject: Hydrogen claims of Meyer et al.
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Various people, such as Chris Arnold and the late Stanley Meyer have 
claimed they can "crack" water with less energy than the heat of formation. 
In other words, they think they can violate the First Law. I do not believe 
this for a nanosecond, but in any case, if it were true, it would instantly 
eliminate the energy crisis and make these people richer than Bill Gates. 
So if they can actually do what they claim, I urge them to demonstrate & 
sell products immediately. If they cannot, I wish they would shut up.

Someone named "Hypercom59" posted a message here about this.  I cannot tell 
whether this person -- organization, or entity -- is quoting a message by 
Chris Arnold, or whether Hypercom is Arnold. (Could he be impersonating 
Arnold?) In any case, while I am wishing aloud it would be nice if people 
would use their real names and identify themselves.

There is a large group of people out there who make grandiose impossible or 
unsubstantiated claims. They have been doing it for years, and I, for one, 
lost patience with them long ago. I do not think they will ever produce, 
demonstrate, document or sell anything. They include some people that Gene 
Mallove still takes seriously, such as Mills, Correa and Shoulders. 
Knowledge which is not shared does not exist. An academic scientist 
publishes and encourages replication. A businessman sells and encourages 
customers and competition.

These people are probably not out & out frauds, like Dennis Lee, but for 
all the good they do they might as well be frauds. A claim that has not be 
independently verified can NEVER be believed, no matter how convincing the 
evidence may seem. When an inventor tries to help others replicate, but no 
one is interested or capable of replicating, that is a shame. It is not his 
fault. When he holds back, he is a contemptible fool who contributes 
nothing to society, and deserves nothing in return.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 09:46:42 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: hydrogen storage - compared to LNG
In-Reply-To: <a0510030bb868b207f6fa [4.46.76.121]>
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thomas malloy wrote:

>Really, I would think that liquid hydrogen would be frightfully difficult 
>to handle, on top of that it's explosive.

I do not suppose it would be much more difficult or dangerous than LNG. LNG 
is a major source of energy worldwide. From 1995 to 2001, shipments (tanker 
loads) increased from 82 to 739. See:

http://www.users.qwest.net/~kryopak/LNGtransport1995_99.htm

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 10:03:08 2002
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Subject: Re: anti-matter
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 10:59:35 -0600
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Blanton" <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: anti-matter

Terry wrote:


> Standing Bear wrote:
>
> >         A recent post on CNN referenced a NASA site that explored
> > the possibility of anti-matter's use as a rocket fuel but lamented an
> > inability to produce it in usable quantities.  Now if the above were possible
> > without the expenditure of enormous amounts of energy.........
> >      ......................any ideas?

Matter or Antimatter, E =  mc^2, that means 9e16 joule/kg
plus the ineffiencies of production and storage.  :-)
>
> There's a conspiracy book by Dan Brown called "Angels & Demons"
> where a CERN research successfully extracts antiparticles from
> the aether by the spontaneous creation of particle/antiparticle
> pairs.

Sounds like another fictional scheme to sell a book.
>
> I understand it might also possible to "filter" antiparticles
> when these virtual particles burst into existance near a black
> hole event horizon.

All you have to do is "filter out" Two 548 Mev (-) "Eta" Particles and a 548 Mev (+)
"Eta" and a 0.511 Mev Positron. The three Eta's will combine to make the Antiproton
giving off  Three 236 Mev binding energy gammas to boot. The external Positron makes
it AntiHydrogen.  :-)

Regards,  Frederick
>
> Terry
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 10:12:27 2002
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Subject: Article by U.S. Sec. of Energy
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See:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40951-2002Jan13.html

Actually, I agree with most of what the Sec. says here, except where he 
says: "So far, there is no indication that the energy side of Enron's 
business was the cause of its collapse." The California newspapers and 
government say that Enron played a major role in engineering the phony 
"crisis" of 1999 and 2000.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 10:20:04 2002
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Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 12:20:31 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Free Energy - Free Hydrogen productuion - Free Energy
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Chris Arnold posted;

>Free Energy is now possible through science.
>

First you say that F E is now possible, later you say

Plasma is the key to multiple technologies - and could unlock our future for
the better

So are you saying that you have set up a version of you motor which 
reliably splits water?

On reading your post a second time I noticed:

My plasma based technology produces high energy plasma as a side effect of
Motor operation.  FREE PLASMA with which to use, FOR FREE.  While high
efficiency mechanical power is produced by the electrical motor to drive the
car - a regulated water stream is shot into the plasma producing Hydrogen by
plasma cracking of the water.  No hydrogen storage is needed,

Hum, I assume that your plasma disassociates the water into Brown's 
Gas, but you know what happens when you assume. Not that there's 
anything wrong with Brown's Gas, it's just that one explodes and the 
other implodes. So which is it?

>- Or you can keep burning fossil and nuclear fuels.  The question is, do you
>really want - Free Energy?

Yes, we want F E. Have you read the paper written by the DOE about 
the Break Through Energy Physics Research Project, BEPR, ( beeper )? 
They are looking for projects like yours. I'd write a letter to the 
Chairman, Dick Cheney and tell him about all the F E machines that my 
scientist friends have developed, but I don't know of any that are 
working at the moment.

I will forward copies of the BEPR paper to anyone who is interested.

>
It's good to hear from you again Chris.

-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 10:22:04 2002
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Schauenberger Vortices
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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Schauenberger Vortices</title></head><body>
<div>As I have posted previously, I have an avid interest in finding a
machine based on the theories of Viktor Schauenberger.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Previously, I emailed Walter Baumgartner the man behind the site
at http://www.vortexscience.com and asked him if he could produce a
machine, or if he was just selling newsletters, he ignored me.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>someone posted the following websites. I have previously
visited<font face="Palatino" size="+2" color="#000000">
http://www.evert.de/eft10e.htm</font></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Yesterday I visited<font face="Palatino" size="+2"
color="#000000"> http://vortex.viptop.ru</font></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I emailed both of the webmasters asking them if they had any
machines for sale. We shall see if I get a reply.</div>
<x-sigsep><pre>-- 
</pre></x-sigsep>
</body>
</html>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 10:30:45 2002
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Subject: Re: hydrogen storage
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Thomas - BMW have had a fleet of Busses going in Berlin for several years
and are working on the study of an infrastructural program for German
Hydrogen distribution. The current large BMW ( A series 740 I think ) has a
range of some 300 Klms without re-fueling.
The loading/ Fillinf is well understood and the equipment is in existance.
----- Original Message -----
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: hydrogen storage


> >Thomas - yes high pressure tanks with Extreme levels of high tech
insulation
> >which I think they now have down to approx 50mm thick and the hydrogen is
> >liquid.
>
> Really, I would think that liquid hydrogen would be frightfully
> difficult to handle, on top of that it's explosive.
>
> >
> >Despite Stanley Meyer being the greatest Con man going
>
> Stan was indeed that. If someone ever builds a hall of shame for F E
> hucksters, Stan should have a prominent place.
>
> >  he had the Philosophy
> >right in that the place for Hydrogen storage is in water in the vehicles
> >tank and do the cracking at the point of use. This is still where my
> >interests still lie and there is hope on the horizon .
> >
> Great, all you have to do is figure out how to get the three atoms
> apart. It looks as though Xogen has bitten the dust, the last I
> heard, Talthus Resources, a major stakeholder in Xogen was in big
> trouble. Have you heard anything?
>
> --
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 11:27:42 2002
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Schauenbeeger pump...negative heat gain...

http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/glrecess.htm

steve opelc

thomas malloy wrote:
> 
> As I have posted previously, I have an avid interest in
> finding a machine based on the theories of Viktor
> Schauenberger.
> 
> Previously, I emailed Walter Baumgartner the man behind
> the site at http://www.vortexscience.com and asked him if
> he could produce a machine, or if he was just selling
> newsletters, he ignored me.
> 
> someone posted the following websites. I have previously
> visited http://www.evert.de/eft10e.htm
> 
> Yesterday I visited http://vortex.viptop.ru
> 
> I emailed both of the webmasters asking them if they had
> any machines for sale. We shall see if I get a reply.
> 
> --

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 12:36:30 2002
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$fd8ad8e0$eba0a5c2 pc> <5.1.0.14.2.20020114124058.00a62318@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: hydrogen storage - compared to LNG
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: hydrogen storage - compared to LNG

Jed wrote:


> thomas malloy wrote:
>
> >Really, I would think that liquid hydrogen would be frightfully difficult
> >to handle, on top of that it's explosive.
>
> I do not suppose it would be much more difficult or dangerous than LNG. LNG
> is a major source of energy worldwide. From 1995 to 2001, shipments (tanker
> loads) increased from 82 to 739. See:

Aren't the Space Shuttles are Fueled by tons of Transported (rail?) Liquid Hydrogen
and Oxygen?

Regards, Frederick
>
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~kryopak/LNGtransport1995_99.htm
>
> - Jed
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 12:55:27 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: N. Y. Times editorial features hydrogen
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 07:52:00 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 14 Jan 2002 12:39:17 -0500:

Vorts may also find http://www.eren.doe.gov/hydrogen/pdfs/28890pp2.pdf
interesting.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 15:15:09 2002
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Subject: Re: hydrogen storage - compared to LNG
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: hydrogen storage - compared to LNG


> thomas malloy wrote:
>
> >Really, I would think that liquid hydrogen would be frightfully difficult
> >to handle, on top of that it's explosive.
>
> I do not suppose it would be much more difficult or dangerous than LNG.
LNG
> is a major source of energy worldwide. From 1995 to 2001, shipments
(tanker
> loads) increased from 82 to 739. See:
>
> http://www.users.qwest.net/~kryopak/LNGtransport1995_99.htm

I think there is a major and significant difference. LNG can be liquefied by
pressure alone at room temperature, as can carbon dioxide. Thus only a
strong pressure vessel is necessary.

Hydrogen cannot be liquefied at room temperature. It must be chilled to a
low temperature, as is the case with liquid nitrogen. Good thermal
insulation is needed, but that is never good enough, so the liquid must be
allowed to chill by evaporation -- a controlled leak. That's fine with
liquid nitrogen, it is non explosive. Hydrogen is highly explosive and you
don't want it leaking into your garage. You also don't want to fill the tank
with liquid hydrogen and find it all gone when you don't use the car for a
week.

The hydrogen powered cars being discussed have, I believe, very strong
pressure vessels that hold the hydrogen at high pressure, but as a gas, not
a liquid.

There is mention on vortex of European high pressure, well insulated
vessels. Much progress has been made, I'm sure. If you are running a fleet
of buses, for example, you can fill up at the beginning of the day, and if
the vessels are very strong, the leak can be slower, so not much is lost by
the end of the day. Not so for passenger cars.

A good case can be made for hydrogen being safe for cars than gasoline. If
there is a flame, it goes up. It doesn't form a burning puddle that can
ignite other things. Downside of the hydrogen flame is that it is virtually
invisible and you could walk into it without sensing danger until it is too
late.

Same for the Shuttle. Yes, liquid hydrogen is used, but the liquefaction
plant is on site and it is made just before use. Those white plumes you see
just before ignition are the boiloff from the liquid hydrogen and oxygen.


Mike Carrell




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 15:36:54 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: hydrogen storage - compared to LNG
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Mike Carrell wrote:

>I think there is a major and significant difference. LNG can be liquefied 
>by pressure alone at room temperature, as can carbon dioxide. Thus only a 
>strong pressure vessel is necessary.

I don't think so. See, for example:

http://www.ch-iv.com/lng/lngfact.htm

QUOTES:

LNG Fact Sheet

WHAT IS IT?

When natural gas is cooled to a temperature of approximately -260°F at 
atmospheric pressure it condenses to a liquid called liquefied natural gas 
(LNG). One volume of this liquid takes up about 1/600th the volume of 
natural gas at a stove burner tip. LNG weighs less than one-half that of 
water, actually about 45% as much. LNG is odorless, colorless, 
non-corrosive, and non-toxic. When vaporized it burns only in 
concentrations of 5% to 15% when mixed with air. Neither LNG, nor its 
vapor, can explode in an unconfined environment.

COMPOSITION

Natural gas is composed primarily of methane (typically, at least 90%) . . .


HOW IS IT STORED?

LNG tanks are always of double-wall construction with extremely efficient 
insulation between the walls. Large tanks are low aspect ratio (height to 
width) and cylindrical in design with a domed roof. Storage pressures in 
these tanks are very low, less than 5 psig. Smaller quantities, 70,000 
gallons and less, are stored in horizontal or vertical, vacuum-jacketed, 
pressure vessels. These tanks may be at pressures any where from less than 
5 psig to over 250 psig. LNG must be maintained cold (at least below 
-117°F) to remain a liquid, independent of pressure.

END QUOTES

In Japan, they use the "excess cold" from LNG for large-scale 
airconditioning, in buildings near the docks and storage tanks.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 15:41:59 2002
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: LPG is liquid at room temperature
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 From the FAQ I quoted earlier, at:

http://www.ch-iv.com/lng/lngfact.htm


WHAT IS LPG?

Liquid petroleum gas (LPG, and sometimes called propane) is often confused 
with LNG and vice versa. They are not the same and the differences are 
significant. LPG is composed primarily of propane (upwards to 95%) and 
smaller quantities of butane. LPG can be stored as a liquid in tanks by 
applying pressure alone. LPG is the "bottled gas" often found under BBQ 
grills. LPG has been used as fuel in light duty vehicles for many years. 
Many petrol stations in Europe have LPG pumps as well.


- JR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 15:51:14 2002
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
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Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 18:49:32 EST
Subject: Re: Free Energy - Free Hydrogen productuion - Free Energy
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Thank you Tom for your inquiries.

I am targeting energy dealers and oil producers - that is now my goal.

As hydrogen production is now acceptable its a good place to begin. As for 
"Can" water crack or have I done it or do I really think it work, Water must 
crack within the plasma. It is all explained within my patent claims. 

Free Energy means just that, the motor runs with high efficiency (and it 
doesn't matter how high it is either) and the plasma is produced as a 
byproduct - however current technology that can produce only a plasma vaguely 
similar to mine, but it would consume more energy than the motor alone takes 
to run - under load or not - the plasma is FREE. I am producing FREE hydrogen 
- PERIOD.

I suggest oil companies, gas companies, hydrogen producers and the DOE to get 
in touch with me so they can secure the hydrogen production license and 
maintain the stabilization of the energy economy - as free energy would 
derail Earths economy.

BTW - It really does work! 

Best Regards,
Chris Arnold

Tom - please forward the BEPR site to me so that I may contact them as well. 
Thanks in advance and if I get some funding from it I will gladly "trickle" 
some down for your help - which is a rarity.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 16:18:17 2002
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Subject: Re: hydrogen storage - compared to LNG
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: hydrogen storage - compared to LNG

Mike Carrell wrote:
>
> I think there is a major and significant difference. LNG can be liquefied by
> pressure alone at room temperature, as can carbon dioxide. Thus only a
> strong pressure vessel is necessary.

For the record, Mike. The Critical Temperature for Methane(LNG) is 343.27 degrees R
(-116.73 F) it's Pressure at the Critical Point, above which it Cannot Be Liquified is
673 PSIA.

The Critical Temp for CO2 is 87.8 F with a Critical Pressure of 1,071 PSIA. Thus it
can be liquified at room temperature.
>
> Same for the Shuttle. Yes, liquid hydrogen is used, but the liquefaction
> plant is on site and it is made just before use.

If liquified on site where is the H2 that is made by Steam Reforming of CH4, coming
from? I seriously doubt that there is a reforming plant at the Cape.  :-)

Regards,  Frederick
>
>
> Mike Carrell
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 16:24:09 2002
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It is best to store hydrogen in a metal hydride, such as titanium.

The number density can be up to twice as great as in liquid hydrogen, and
much lower pressures can be used. Cold titanium hydride will leak very
little hydrogen. I can be released on demand by heating the hydride.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 17:08:52 2002
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Subject: Re: hydrogen storage - compared to LNG
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Its better to produce hydrogen only as required and NOT store it all. And by 
launching my system, I will make enough money not to worry about it.

Regards,
Chris 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 14 19:07:16 2002
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Subject: I published this first
To: storms2 ix.netcom.com (Edmund Storms), Scottychubb@cs.com,
        JedRothwell infinite-energy.com, halfox@uswest.net, HALFOX@aol.com,
        editor infinite-energy.com, GeorgeHM@aol.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com,
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I lectured on this at UIUC.  I published a paper on the in the Journal of New 
Energy vol 5, no 2, 2000.

I sent puthoff a copy. Now Haisch and Rueda have claimed it to be their idea.
The idea is that the deBrogle wave is a beat note formed by the a 
reflection of a Doppler shifted Compton wave.
Thank you Hal Fox at least I on record.  I going to send Mallove another 
paper on this
subject.

 <A HREF="http://www.calphysics.org/mass.html">California Institute for Physics and Astrophysics: Nature of Mass</A>


If Caltek extends this work and comes up with the "Constants of the Motion
Theory"  I really be pissed.  That my idea.  It a follow through of thie 
deBroglei idea.
I sent this stuff out to physical review in 1994.  They rejected it.  Thank 
god for
Hal Fox.  His publications proves that I was hrer first with this improtant 
concept.


Frank Znidarsic 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>I lectured on this at UIUC.&nbsp; I published a paper on the in the Journal of New Energy vol 5, no 2, 2000.<BR>
<BR>
I sent puthoff a copy. Now Haisch and Rueda have claimed it to be their idea.<BR>
The idea is that the deBrogle wave is a beat note formed by the a <BR>
reflection of a Doppler shifted Compton wave.<BR>
Thank you Hal Fox at least I on record.&nbsp; I going to send Mallove another paper on this<BR>
subject.<BR>
<BR>
 <A HREF="http://www.calphysics.org/mass.html">California Institute for Physics and Astrophysics: Nature of Mass</A><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
If Caltek extends this work and comes up with the "Constants of the Motion<BR>
Theory"&nbsp; I really be pissed.&nbsp; That my idea.&nbsp; It a follow through of thie deBroglei idea.<BR>
I sent this stuff out to physical review in 1994.&nbsp; They rejected it.&nbsp; Thank god for<BR>
Hal Fox.&nbsp; His publications proves that I was hrer first with this improtant concept.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic </FONT></HTML>

--part1_8.1fa73011.2974f5ca_boundary--

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Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 22:11:35 EST
Subject: I published a paper on the deBrogle wavelength in the Journal of New Energy
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Bernhard Haisch 


I published a paper on the deBrogle wavelength as a Doppler shifted component 
of
the Compton wavelength in The Journal of New Energy vol 5 , no 2 , 2000.
Puthoff received preprints as early as 1994.  Please give me and Hal Fox's 
Journal credit where creit is due.  I don't believe you were the first to get 
there.  I know no one else has completed the story

Hear is the rest of the story and what it means.

http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/index.html


Frank Znidarsic

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Subject: Re: hydrogen storage - compared to LNG
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If you have the energy to produce hydrogen, then it is more efficent to
use the energy directly and not produce hydrogen.

I still don't believe in perpetual motion machines. 

On Mon, 14 Jan 2002 Hypercom59 aol.com wrote:

> Its better to produce hydrogen only as required and NOT store it all. And by 
> launching my system, I will make enough money not to worry about it.
> 
> Regards,
> Chris 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 15 09:06:56 2002
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Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 12:03:52 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Human Bioenergetics lecture notes
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Here are some handy facts and formulas relating to human bioenergetics, 
covering topics such as basal metabolism and the energy content of fat tissue:

http://www.phy.syr.edu/courses/PHY101.01Fall/lectures/Lecture20.pdf

Keep in mind the conversion factor 4.2 joules = 1 calorie. Here are handy 
conversion factors:

http://www.processassociates.com/process/convert/cf_all.htm

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 15 09:24:13 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: hydrogen storage - compared to LNG
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Stephen Lajoie wrote:

>If you have the energy to produce hydrogen, then it is more efficent to
>use the energy directly and not produce hydrogen.

I do not believe these claims, but I think the gist of the claims are that 
the mysterious energy is released when water molecules are fractured. In 
other words, you have to produce hydrogen to extract the energy from ZPE or 
where ever it is coming from. Hydrogen production is, itself, the method of 
extracting and accumulating energy, just as it would be with conventional 
things such as anaerobic photosynthesis or Celani's anaerobic bacteria 
metabolism, that extract the energy from the sun.


>I still don't believe in perpetual motion machines.

Neither do I! Also it bothers me that people like Chris do not even realize 
they claim perpetual motion. Meyer always denied it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 15 10:55:32 2002
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Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 10:51:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: hydrogen storage - compared to LNG
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On Tue, 15 Jan 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> 
> >If you have the energy to produce hydrogen, then it is more efficent to
> >use the energy directly and not produce hydrogen.
> 
> I do not believe these claims, but I think the gist of the claims are that 
> the mysterious energy is released when water molecules are fractured. In 
> other words, you have to produce hydrogen to extract the energy from ZPE or 
> where ever it is coming from. Hydrogen production is, itself, the method of 
> extracting and accumulating energy, just as it would be with conventional 
> things such as anaerobic photosynthesis or Celani's anaerobic bacteria 
> metabolism, that extract the energy from the sun.


Maybe someone could explain to me how this energy extraction is suppose to
happen. Just because I read Vortext doesn't mean that I was born
yesterday.  
 

> >I still don't believe in perpetual motion machines.
> 
> Neither do I! Also it bothers me that people like Chris do not even realize 
> they claim perpetual motion. Meyer always denied it.

I've never seen a purple cow,
I never hope to see one,
I can tell you any how, 
I'd rather see than be one. 

I am reminded of Dr. Schultz, who, in his zeal to deny the helium created
by cold fusion, fabricated a theory that enabled perpetual motion. 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 15 12:45:52 2002
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
Message-ID: <9f.21201404.2975edf9 aol.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 15:41:29 EST
Subject: Re: hydrogen storage / Hydrogen Production
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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If you don't believe I am, and have been telling the truth - after today's 
emails from across the globe, I really don't care what you think. I asked for 
an audience, but you will never guess who is on the list. 

If you don't understand what you see - just forget about it.

Thanks for having me, Good bye.
Chris

In a message dated 1/15/2002 2:03:54 PM Central Standard Time, 
lajoie eskimo.com writes:

<< On Tue, 15 Jan 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:
 
 > Stephen Lajoie wrote:
 > 
 > >If you have the energy to produce hydrogen, then it is more efficent to
 > >use the energy directly and not produce hydrogen.
 > 
 > I do not believe these claims, but I think the gist of the claims are that 
 > the mysterious energy is released when water molecules are fractured. In 
 > other words, you have to produce hydrogen to extract the energy from ZPE 
or 
 > where ever it is coming from. Hydrogen production is, itself, the method 
of 
 > extracting and accumulating energy, just as it would be with conventional 
 > things such as anaerobic photosynthesis or Celani's anaerobic bacteria 
 > metabolism, that extract the energy from the sun.
 
 
 Maybe someone could explain to me how this energy extraction is suppose to
 happen. Just because I read Vortext doesn't mean that I was born
 yesterday.  
  
 
 > >I still don't believe in perpetual motion machines.
 > 
 > Neither do I! Also it bothers me that people like Chris do not even 
realize 
 > they claim perpetual motion. Meyer always denied it.
 
 I've never seen a purple cow,
 I never hope to see one,
 I can tell you any how, 
 I'd rather see than be one. 
 
 I am reminded of Dr. Schultz, who, in his zeal to deny the helium created
 by cold fusion, fabricated a theory that enabled perpetual motion. 
 
  >>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 15 13:59:49 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: hydrogen storage / Hydrogen Production
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Hypercom59 aol.com wrote:

>If you don't believe I am, and have been telling the truth - after today's
>emails from across the globe, I really don't care what you think.

No one accuses you of lying, but I suspect you do not understand the truth. 
I suspect you do not know some basic physics, such as the conservation of 
energy. Your messages have not included enough detail for anyone to 
evaluate your claims, but in any case, on face of it, they are impossible.


>I asked for an audience, but you will never guess who is on the list.

This sentence makes no sense to me.


>If you don't understand what you see - just forget about it.

I understand what I see, but you have showed very little. I will forget 
about it, and about you, and so will everyone else, unless you make the 
effort to state your case clearly in proper academic form. If you seriously 
wish to convince people you must describe the experiment in some detail, 
and post data from it, and you must explain:

1. Why this is not a violation of the conservation of energy (c. of e.) OR

2. Why this IS a violation of c. of e., but you think the results are real 
anyway, based on the data. Please do not bother to give us a theory as to 
how you can override or escape c. of e.

My point is, you should skirt this issue, or ignore it. Confront it head on.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 15 19:57:58 2002
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Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 21:51:24 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: hydrogen storage - compared to LNG
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  Stephen Lajoie posted

>If you have the energy to produce hydrogen, then it is more efficent to
>use the energy directly and not produce hydrogen.
>
>I still don't believe in perpetual motion machines.

There is no perpetual motion. There is energy derived from matter 
transformed into energy, and perhaps energy cohered from the vacuum. 
Also, perhaps we can capture the energy of the motion of the planet, 
but I can't see how.


On reading your subsequent posts Stephen, I can only suggest that you 
read the articles that Hal Puthoff co-authored in the Physical Review 
speculating on the possibility of cohering the energy of the vacuum, 
zitternbewegung. This is the latest in a thread going back through 
Sakarov and Dirac, to the time of the natural philosophers.

What Tom has done, IMHO is capture the energy which normally goes 
missing in conventional fusion reactions, with a magnetic vortex. We 
shall see.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 16 05:22:59 2002
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Subject: How we capture energy from planetary motion
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thomas malloy wrote:

>Also, perhaps we can capture the energy of the motion of the planet, but I 
>can't see how.

With wind power, tidal power, launching rockets to the east, and using the 
gravity from planets to speed up interplanetary spacecraft.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 16 12:24:11 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: hydrogen storage - compared to LNG
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 07:19:52 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Stephen Lajoie's message of Tue, 15 Jan 2002 10:51:31
-0800:
[snip]
>I am reminded of Dr. Schultz, who, in his zeal to deny the helium created
>by cold fusion, fabricated a theory that enabled perpetual motion. 
>
>
[snip]
Please show one example (of anything) where there is NO perpetual
motion. ;)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 16 13:30:08 2002
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Subject: Irish wind stats reasonable
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The new wind farm project in Ireland will have 520 MW nameplate capacity. 
It is supposed to supply 10% of Ireland's electricity. In 1999 Ireland 
consumed 18 billion killowatt hours according to the DoE:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/iea/table62.html

A 520 MW wind farm would supply 1.8 billion kilowatt hours running at 40% 
of nameplate capacity on average. On land actual performance is somewhat 
lower, 28 to 35%, but an offshore site should generate more, so 40% is 
reasonable.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 16 19:21:56 2002
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 16 19:30:44 2002
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If you are, I found one

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 16 22:02:30 2002
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: quantum gravity
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 01:09:41 -0500
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First Observation?

http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/2002/573.html

Quantum gravitational states have been observed for the first
time. An experiment with ultracold neutrons shows that their
vertical motion in Earth's gravitational field come in discrete sizes...

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 17 08:22:50 2002
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Subject: Re: quantum gravity
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>

> http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/2002/573.html

> Quantum gravitational states have been observed for the first
> time. An experiment with ultracold neutrons shows that their
> vertical motion in Earth's gravitational field come in discrete sizes...

"The researchers report seeing a minimum (quantum) energy of
1.4 picoelectron volts (1.4 x 10-12 eV),..."

Is this, then, an estimation of the ground state of the graviton?

The graviton, we must remember, is still a hypothetical particle, but since all
other
forces are thought to be transmitted by force-carrying particles, most
physicists
think that there is a massless particle (previously believed to be) for gravity.

The W is the only force-carrying particle with electric charge.
So if Robin and others are correct about charge>mass, then we could expect
some tiny mass with the W... but  not necessarily with the graviton. Also all of
the
force-carrying particles have spin 1, except that theorists expect the graviton
to be spin 2, so perhaps mass could be indicated to some extent by "extra"
spin??

There seems to be no mention in the summary of if/ how the investigators
eliminated the possibility that the extraordinarily small energy that they
premise
these findings on, was not the effect of an interaction with the earth's
magnetic,
not its gravitational field, and the small magnetic moment of the neutron.
Did you read the entire article, Keith? How did they measure such a small
field with certainty.

Here is a prediction. If these guys made anything near an accurate measurement,
some mathematician (or Fred Sparber) will hack away on it until some correlation
emerges between this number and alpha, the fine structure constant.

Maybe it's time to subscribe...

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 17 10:53:07 2002
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: weirdsci-announce eskimo.com
Subject: WARNING: cheap toy!   Intelplay PC microscope down to $30
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  http://www.shop-intel.com/shop/

Fred M. sends word that the price of the $99 IntelPlay video microscope
has fallen (see below).  I haven't played with one of these yet, but I
imagine they'd be very useful for all sorts of hobbyist and education
topics.  I'm tempted to by two, so I can use one as a subversive gift to
infect little kids with the science bug. 

Note that it needs a USB port.

Other pages:

 http://peripherals.about.com/library/weekly/aa012200a.htm?once=true&
 http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artdec99/rbqx3.html
 http://members.aol.com/%5Fht%5Fa/microfab/QX3.HTM


> One of the guys at work showed me that the Intel site is unloading their
> microscopes that connect to your computer.  It will magnify up to 200x
> and uses a USB port.  $29.99 - I think these were ~$100.00 last month.
>
>  http://www.shop-intel.com/shop/
>
> Comes with a free Sound Morpher (HW + SW) while supplies last - this
> will do text to speech.  Mine is coming.  I pooled at the office to make
> a larger order.

(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 17 11:30:10 2002
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: quantum gravity
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 14:31:58 -0500
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Hi Jones.

The general impression here is that what's being
measured is not quantum gravity as such but rather
quantization of matter in a gravitational field.
Perhaps this is just splitting hairs; I'll defer
to the PHD's who are studying this. What this
experiment reminds me of is millikans oil drop
experiment, albeit on a much smaller scale.

I have no doubt that mathematicians and even
Fred Sparber (grin) will have some fun with the
number. And I have no doubt that it will tie
together many things, if true. I have seen many such attempts
to tie alpha to things, my favorite being the
relation between alpha and the intergalactic
streaming velocity (!?!?)

I have not read the Nature article, and what
I could find for free on the web was not much
more detailed than the link I posted. But about
3 papers have already been generated due to
this experiment, perhaps a trip to the library
is in order...

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 11:14 AM
To: vortex
Subject: Re: quantum gravity


From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>

> http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/2002/573.html

> Quantum gravitational states have been observed for the first
> time. An experiment with ultracold neutrons shows that their
> vertical motion in Earth's gravitational field come in discrete sizes...

"The researchers report seeing a minimum (quantum) energy of
1.4 picoelectron volts (1.4 x 10-12 eV),..."

Is this, then, an estimation of the ground state of the graviton?

The graviton, we must remember, is still a hypothetical particle, but since
all
other
forces are thought to be transmitted by force-carrying particles, most
physicists
think that there is a massless particle (previously believed to be) for
gravity.

The W is the only force-carrying particle with electric charge.
So if Robin and others are correct about charge>mass, then we could expect
some tiny mass with the W... but  not necessarily with the graviton. Also
all of
the
force-carrying particles have spin 1, except that theorists expect the
graviton
to be spin 2, so perhaps mass could be indicated to some extent by "extra"
spin??

There seems to be no mention in the summary of if/ how the investigators
eliminated the possibility that the extraordinarily small energy that they
premise
these findings on, was not the effect of an interaction with the earth's
magnetic,
not its gravitational field, and the small magnetic moment of the neutron.
Did you read the entire article, Keith? How did they measure such a small
field with certainty.

Here is a prediction. If these guys made anything near an accurate
measurement,
some mathematician (or Fred Sparber) will hack away on it until some
correlation
emerges between this number and alpha, the fine structure constant.

Maybe it's time to subscribe...

Jones



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 17 12:05:12 2002
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New electric motorbike at:

http://www.voloci.com/voloci/default.asp

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 17 12:16:07 2002
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William Beaty wrote:

 >  http://www.shop-intel.com/shop/
 >
 > Fred M. sends word that the price of the $99 IntelPlay video
 > microscope has fallen (see below).  I haven't played with one . . .

Great minds think alike.

About an hour ago I sent Ed Storms these links:

http://www.intelplay.com/products/qx3/index.php
http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/optics/intelplay/

The second one has technical info and a "simulator."

I just tested a new HP scanner as a microscope. It has a backlight and 2400 
dpi resolution for use with slides and film negatives. I tried scanning a 
small, 3-D object (a planar RAM module circa 1965) at maximum resolution. 
It came out remarkably clear. I am not sure of the magnification but the 
details are clearer than they are with my Tasco 30X hand microscope. I can 
send the .jpg to anyone who is interested.

I am using this new scanner to rid my life of hundreds of pages of paper, 
with the PaperPort program.

A scanner is the best way to preserve graphic art, such painting or 
pastels. I found a program (powerstich.exe) that assemble overlapping 
segments of pictures too large for the scanner.

While I am on the subject . . . For the past five years, every year around 
January I have scanned a bunch of material. You might call it a hobby. I do 
something like an old out-of-copyright or unpublished book, or a large pile 
of old family photos. I am thinking of doing "The Wright Brothers 
Authorized Biography" by Fred Kelly. If someone would like to assist 
proofreading and correcting the OCR output, I might be more inclined to do 
it. Also, it would be nice if someone could dig up good copies of some of 
the photos, maybe from the Smithsonian. This book deserves to be in the 
public domain, available on Internet.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 17 13:14:38 2002
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On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 03:11:40PM -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I am using this new scanner to rid my life of hundreds of pages of paper,=
=20
> with the PaperPort program.

I've been scanning in hundreds of pages of notes written by a friend
of mine of the last 30-40 years. I've got an HP officejet G85 with
a page feeder and it's a godsend. The windows software is really
clunky, but I managed to hack together a number of small FreeBSD(unix)
scripts and have the whole process automated now. It's fantastic.
I can load in 30 or 40 pages at a time and just let it get on with
it.

So I can totally enthuse with you :).

Joe

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 17 15:29:32 2002
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Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 17:40:41 -0500
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Subject: Household standby power consumption
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I have a short paper in .pdf format that may be of interest. Contact me for 
a copy.

Whole-House Measurements of Standby Power Consumption, J.P. Ross, 
University of California, Berkeley, USA, Alan Meier, Lawrence Berkeley 
National Laboratory, USA

ABSTRACT

We investigated the variation in standby power consumption in ten 
California homes. Total standby power in the homes ranged from 14–169 W, 
with an average of 67 W. This corresponded to 5%–26% of the homes’ annual 
electricity use. The appliances with the largest standby losses were 
televisions, set-top boxes and printers. The large variation in the standby 
power of appliances providing the same service demonstrates that 
manufacturers are able to reduce standby losses without degrading 
performance. Replacing existing units with appliances with 1 W or less of 
standby power would reduce standby losses by 68%.

- JR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 17 15:56:34 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
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Terry Blanton wrote:

>New electric motorbike at:
>
>http://www.voloci.com/voloci/default.asp

Terry, Terry, Terry . . . that's so OLD. Get with it!!! Electric bicycles 
and Segway devices? That's so 2001. It is time for Personal One Man 
Hovercraft, as shown in the Sydney Olympics. See:

http://www.zapworld.com/airboard.htm

Like it says: Go Ahead, Live a Little. (Meaning live a short while before 
they bring you into the emergency room.)

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 17 19:37:07 2002
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From: dtmiller midiowa.net (Dean T. Miller)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: WARNING: cheap toy!   Intelplay PC microscope down to $30
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 03:34:16 GMT
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On Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:50:03 -0800 (PST), William Beaty
<billb eskimo.com> wrote:

>
>  http://www.shop-intel.com/shop/
>
>Fred M. sends word that the price of the $99 IntelPlay video microscope
>has fallen (see below). 

Thanks Bill (and Fred).  I've been looking at this "toy" for over a
year, but never got around to getting one to play with.  I just
ordered it.  :)

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 18 05:51:38 2002
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
 

> http://www.zapworld.com/airboard.htm
> 
> Like it says: Go Ahead, Live a Little. (Meaning live a short while before
> they bring you into the emergency room.)

While that looks like loads of fun, my favorite personal
transportation innovation is still the solotrek, which recently
demonstrated a tethered flight.

http://www.solotrek.com/mjet/index1.html

One pass through those ducted fans and there won't be enough left
to take to the emergency room.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 19 14:11:25 2002
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Subject: Fw: Displacement Current Coupling to the Gravitational Field?
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Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: Displacement Current Coupling to the Gravitational Field?


> The String-Circle Quark Model suggests that the EM Displacement Current creates the
> Gravitational Force between particles, and that this force acts as though it is a
> 1/R^2 magnetostatic type force:
>
> Fg = Fmag = 1.0E-7*M1*M2/R^2  (newtons)
>
> where M is the "magnetic moment" or pole strength in Ampere-Meters.
>
> The "Magnetic" field generated  between the plates of Ceramic Disc capacitors due to
> the Displacement Current
> Density,  Jd:
>
> Jd = C dV/dt  (amperes/meter^2)
>
> implies that a magnetic field  exists perpendicular to the
> electric field lines created between the plates during charge and discharge of the
> "flat plate" disc capacitor.
>
> This suggests that a Displacement Current "Loop"  can be made by mounting several
> ceramic disc capacitors with the flat sides facing on a pair of wires, which puts
them
> all electrically in parallel, then bending these "capacitor rails" into a loop with
a
> bleeder resistor connected between the rails so that the group is pulsed with a
short
> duration-fast risetime pulse to get a large dV/dt Displacement Current, but a slow
> decay by setting the RC time constant with
> the bleeder resistor.
>
> A hundred 0.01 microfarad disc capacitors on the meter-long loop sitting on a scale
> Might show some gravity coupling effects when pulsed at some rate.
>
> Fred
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jan 19 15:21:23 2002
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Household standby power consumption
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On Thu, 17 Jan 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> We investigated the variation in standby power consumption in ten 
> California homes. Total standby power in the homes ranged from 14–169 W, 
> with an average of 67 W.

An energy flow of one watt accumulated over one year costs a dollar or
two.  People might take more notice when they realize that they're
throwing away several hundred bucks per year just for the benefit of
having a "power on" button on their TV/VCR handheld remote control. 


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 21 01:13:39 2002
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Interesting website
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Those of you who have followed the F E story will have heard of Paul 
Pantone and his GEET machine. It is an improved carbuaator which 
mixes a hydrocarbon with water and sucks it through a magnetic vortex.

I would also like to call your attention to Paul Pantone's site, 
http://www.geet.com . In a conversation we had today, he mentioned 
his GEET school. He said that anyone who is interested in engineering 
the vacuum would find his school beneficial. Now that I can use his 
technology I'm going to try to attend his school, I hope that he will 
be able to help me understand quantum vacuum fluxiations.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 21 11:13:32 2002
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From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
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Perhaps Dr. Storms could submit his paper to the preprint service
offerred by the ACS.

-ak-
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: ChemWeb.com Member News Bulletin
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:47:50 +0000
From: "ChemWeb.com" <Member_News_Bulletin lists.epress.co.uk>
Reply-To: Member News Bulletin <Member_News_Bulletin lists.epress.co.uk>
To: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>

================================================== 
ChemWeb.com Member News Bulletin - Volume 5, Issue 3
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 21 12:42:40 2002
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Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:38:05 +0200
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
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Subject: Re: Fw: Displacement Current Coupling to the Gravitational Field?
References: <001c01c1a12d$37780fa0$4e8f85ce computer>
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Self-resonating coils (Tesla coils) have strong displacement currents and have very good displacement current geometric distribution, may form at least partial loops. Note that displacement currents exist not only between adjacent windings, but across lon
gitudinally the coil upon my observations. Higher the frequency, more the coil behave like a capacitor, or multitude of capacitors attached serially, with alternating polarities.

Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 2:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Displacement Current Coupling to the Gravitational Field?
> 
> > The String-Circle Quark Model suggests that the EM Displacement Current creates the
> > Gravitational Force between particles, and that this force acts as though it is a
> > 1/R^2 magnetostatic type force:
> >
> > Fg = Fmag = 1.0E-7*M1*M2/R^2  (newtons)
> >
> > where M is the "magnetic moment" or pole strength in Ampere-Meters.
> >
> > The "Magnetic" field generated  between the plates of Ceramic Disc capacitors due to
> > the Displacement Current
> > Density,  Jd:
> >
> > Jd = C dV/dt  (amperes/meter^2)
> >
> > implies that a magnetic field  exists perpendicular to the
> > electric field lines created between the plates during charge and discharge of the
> > "flat plate" disc capacitor.
> >
> > This suggests that a Displacement Current "Loop"  can be made by mounting several
> > ceramic disc capacitors with the flat sides facing on a pair of wires, which puts
> them
> > all electrically in parallel, then bending these "capacitor rails" into a loop with
> a
> > bleeder resistor connected between the rails so that the group is pulsed with a
> short
> > duration-fast risetime pulse to get a large dV/dt Displacement Current, but a slow
> > decay by setting the RC time constant with
> > the bleeder resistor.
> >
> > A hundred 0.01 microfarad disc capacitors on the meter-long loop sitting on a scale
> > Might show some gravity coupling effects when pulsed at some rate.
> >
> > Fred
> >

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 21 16:47:57 2002
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Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:43:11 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Fw: Displacement Current Coupling to the Gravitational Field?
Cc: <jlsparber earthlink.net>
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At 3:06 PM 1/19/2, Frederick Sparber wrote:
>Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 2:44 PM
>Subject: Re: Displacement Current Coupling to the Gravitational Field?
>
>
>> The String-Circle Quark Model suggests that the EM Displacement Current
>>creates the
>> Gravitational Force between particles, and that this force acts as
>>though it is a
>> 1/R^2 magnetostatic type force:
>>
>> Fg = Fmag = 1.0E-7*M1*M2/R^2  (newtons)
>>
>> where M is the "magnetic moment" or pole strength in Ampere-Meters.
[snip deductions]

Fred,

How do you justify this very unusual definition of magnetic moment?  The
standard magnetic moment M is given by:

   M = N i A

where N is number of turns, i is current, and A is area bounded by the
circular current.  You definition implies that magnetic moment is only
proportional to the length of the perimeter, not to the area encircled.
The special non-standard definition of magnetic moment you use above can
not be used to calculate magnetic force between magnetic dipoles by the
equation you supply, nor can it be used to calculate torque by the usual
equations.  Could you please justify your unusual choice for the definition
of magnetic moment?  Thanks.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 22 00:41:31 2002
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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 02:39:41 -0600
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
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I wrote to the people behind a website offering schauenberger vortex 
machines for sale, and got the following reply.


>Dear Sir Thomas Malloy,
>
>1.   Item of information on the Vibropump for artesian, look on the file
>http://www.aek-dinamo.ru/english/catalog/baby1.htm
>http://www.aek-dinamo.ru/english/main.htm
>2.   We can design the pump of a new type (without electrical energy), look
>http://vortex.viptop.ru/eng/linkp8.html
>and the enclosed file 98.htm
>3.   I research vortical movement, as it did Kelly, Tesla, Schauberger, look
>http://vortex.viptop.ru/eng/linkp5.html
>Now investigate vortical power many separate scientists. But I consider,
>that they make one mistake. They make a vortex with the help of the
>compressor, screw and so forth. It is an erroneous way. Such vortex will not
>take energy from an environment. It is necessary to make a vortex, which can
>itself be untwisted from energy of an environment. Such vortex I have made
>http://vortex.viptop.ru/eng/sc1.html
>  My vortex is done with the help only of oscillations (as it did great
>Kelly).
>On such vortex it is possible to do devices of a new type:
>- vortical pipe;
>- vortical heat pump http://vortex.viptop.ru/eng/y12.html
>- vortical renewed source of energy     http://vortex.viptop.ru/eng/y6.html
>- mixers, extractors and another.
>It can be the very large business.
>4. I do not let out serial production. Therefore I have not a prices. I
>carry out the orders for development of high technology.
>5. I can make by your order the following development, loo
>http://vortex.viptop.ru/eng/application.html
>
>Best regards, Yours
>Evgueni Sorokodoum
>
>Dr. Evgueni Sorokodoum
>Entrepreneur and General Director, Vortex Oscillation Technology Ltd,
>Volochaevskaya Street, 40-b, Flat 38, 109033, Moscow, Russia
>Telephone: (7) - (095) -362 80 84
>E-mail: e40dum dol.ru
>http://vortex.viptop.ru
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
>To: <e40dum dol.ru>
>Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 11:15 AM
>
>
>>  Dear Sir;
>>
>>  You have an interesting site. Your translation is not the best
>>  however, and as a result your website is confusing. I want to call
>>  your attention to the webpage entitled Vibropump for artesian of a
>>  chink. That is one strange title, what does it mean? I have seen
>>  enough drawings of Victor Shauenberger's vortexs to know one when I
>>  see one. Do you have machines for sale? For what applications are
>>  these machines intended? What are your prices?
>  >
>  >
>  > --
>  >
>
>Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:=========== === 98.htm 
>(TEXT/MSIE) (0002C0AD)


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 22 11:11:09 2002
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User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:01:49 -0800
Subject: Irish F/E invention - Reuters story
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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All,

I have heard that the Reuters story below also was picked up by Paul Harvey
today.

I think the Irish media establishment will track this guy down and smoke him
out one way or the other.

Gene

******


Irish inventor says cracks world's energy needs

By Kevin Smith

  
DUBLIN, Jan 22 (Reuters) - It has been a pipe-dream of inventors since
Leonardo da Vinci, but has the secret of free energy now been found in
Ireland? 

A cold stone outhouse on a windswept Irish hillside may seem an unlikely
setting for the birthplace of such an epoch-making discovery, but it is
here that an Irish inventor says he has developed a machine that will do
no less than change the world.

The 58-year-old electrical engineer, who lives in the Irish republic and
intends -- for "security and publicity-avoidance reasons" -- to keep his
identity a secret, has spent 23 years perfecting the Jasker Power System.

It is an electro-mechanical device he says is capable of nothing less
than replenishing its own energy source.

The Irishman is not alone in making such assertions. The Internet is
awash with speculation about free or "zero point" energy, with many
claiming to have cracked the problem using magnets, coils, and even
crystals. 

"These claims come along every 10 years or so and nothing ever comes of
them. They're all cases of 'voodoo science'," said Robert Park, professor
of physics at the University of Maryland in the United States.

The makers of the Jasker -- a name derived from family abbreviations --
say it can be built to scale using off-the-shelf components and can power
anything that requires a motor.

"The Jasker produces emission-free energy at no cost apart from the
installation. It is quite possibly the most significant invention since
the wheel," Tom Hedrick, the only person involved with the machine
willing to give his name, told Reuters.

Hedrick, chief executive of a company set up with a view to licensing the
device in the United States, said the technology shattered preconceived
laws of science. 

"It's a giant leap forward. The uses of this are almost beyond
imagination." 

RED HOT WITH CONTROVERSY

Not surprisingly, this topic is red hot with controversy -- sharply
dividing a world scientific community still on its guard after the "Cold
Fusion" fiasco of 1989 when a group of Utah researchers scandalised the
scientific world with claims -- quickly found to be unsupported -- that
the long-sought answer to the problem of Cold Fusion had been discovered.

Experts contacted by Reuters were wary, citing the first law of
thermodynamics which, in layman's terms, states that you can't get more
energy out than you put in.

"I don't believe this. It goes against fundamentals which have not yet
been disproved," said William Beattie, senior lecturer in electrical
engineering at Queen's University in Belfast, Northern Ireland.

"These people (Jasker) are either Nobel prize-winners or they don't know
what they're dealing with. The energy has to come from somewhere."

Undaunted, the inventor says that once powered-up, his device can run
indefinitely -- or at least until the parts wear out, adding that he has
supplied all his own domestic power needs free for 17 months.

But he is keen to head off the notion that he has tapped into the age-old
myth of perpetual motion.

"Perpetual motion is impossible. This is a self-sustaining unit which at
the same time provides surplus electrical energy."

THE SIZE OF A DISHWASHER

In a demonstration for Reuters, a prototype -- roughly the size of a
dish-washer -- was run for around 10 minutes using four 12-volt car
batteries as an initial power source.

Emitting a steady motorised hum, the machine powered three 100-watt light
bulbs for the duration.

A multimeter reading of the batteries' voltage before the device started
up showed a total of 48.9 volts. When it was switched off, a second
reading showed 51.2 volts, indicating that, somehow, they had been
reimbursed. 

The machine went on to run for around two hours while photographs were
taken, with no diminution in the brightness of the light bulbs, which
remained lit during a short power cut.

"The draw on the batteries was estimated at more than 4.5 kilowatts. With
any existing technology the batteries would have been drained flat in one
and a half minutes," the inventor said.

Modern theories of zero point energy have their roots in quantum physics
and encompass the fraught areas of "anti-gravity machines" and "advanced
propulsion" research.

Contributors to the debate range from serious exponents of quantum
science to those who insist free energy secrets have been imparted to
them by aliens. Still others seem convinced the U.S. government is
conspiring to suppress such discoveries.

Nick Cook, aerospace consultant to Janes Defence Weekly and author of
"The Hunt for Zero Point" is not as quick as some to dismiss the
possibilities. 

"Zero point energy has been proven to exist, the question is whether it
can be tapped to provide usable energy. And to that end, I think it's
possible, yes. There are a lot of eminent scientists now involved in this
field and they wouldn't be if there wasn't anything to it," he told
Reuters. 

"In my experience opinion in this field is extremely polarised...people
either go with this area of investigation in their minds or they don't,
and if they don't they tend to pooh-pooh it vehemently. It's very
difficult to get an objective assessment," he said.

"Basically, no one wants to be the first to stick his head above the
parapet." 

IRELAND'S BIGGEST INVENTION SINCE GUINNESS?

Impervious to scepticism, Jasker's makers see the first practical
application of their technology as a stand-alone generator for home use,
although the automotive industry could also be a near-term target given
the huge investment in developing substitutes for petrol-fuelled engines.

With world oil reserves running down, there is mounting urgency in the
quest for alternatives.

If the Jasker men really are onto something, it could be the most
important Irish invention since Guinness.

21:05 01-21-02

Copyright 2002 Reuters Limited.  All rights reserved.  Republication or
redistribution of Reuters content, including by framing or similar means,
is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters.
Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 22 12:06:35 2002
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From: Stephen Lajoie <lajoie eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Irish F/E invention - Reuters story
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Ever notice how these stories never explain the principle behind how the
device works? 



On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

> All,
> 
> I have heard that the Reuters story below also was picked up by Paul Harvey
> today.
> 
> I think the Irish media establishment will track this guy down and smoke him
> out one way or the other.
> 
> Gene
> 
> ******
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 22 12:39:46 2002
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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:29:41 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Irish F/E invention - Reuters story
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It's too bad that the writer of this piece, Kevin Smith, chose to drag cold
fusion into the fray once again, but the guy's ignorance of the "free
energy" field is reinforced several times more by such references as to the
"first law" and failing to mention the obvious connection to Joseph Newman.

If they wanted to pick the perfect "whipping boy" paranoid nutcase inventor
why not go for the ultimate, the irrepressible Joe Newman instead of P&F?
All the writer needed for ammo can be found on Eric Kreig's site:
http://www.phact.org/e/skeptic/

Other suspicious details
1) "the inventor says that once powered-up, his device can run indefinitely
 ...adding that he has supplied all his own domestic power needs free for
17 months   (ugh... really? can you keep a secret for 17 hours in Ireland,
much less 17 months... well, unless you are so remote that there is no pub
within walking distance, Ned Devine notwithstanding)

2) "Perpetual motion is impossible. This is a self-sustaining unit which at
the same time provides surplus electrical energy." (Duh...talk about
unclear on the concept!!)

3) ...using four 12-volt car batteries as an initial power source, the
machine powered three 100-watt light bulbs for the duration. A multimeter
reading of the batteries' voltage before the device started up showed a
total of 48.9 volts. When it was switched off, a second reading showed 51.2
volts, indicating that, somehow, they had been reimbursed." (first off, 12
volt auto batteries should show 12.9-13.3 volts when fully charged so
something is amiss here and if it's the size or a dishwasher, it no doubt
contains a big old Newman-type coil inside, so why beat around the
bush... )

4) "The draw on the batteries was estimated at more than 4.5 kilowatts.
(OK, if it is powering 3 -100 watt bulks and drawing 4.5 kilowatts, thats
not a great COP but hey, OU is OU and even if it is slightly OU, then why
not substitute big caps for the batteries and prove something besides
"spark desupherization" or whatever you call it - haven't we "been there,
done that"?

Naudin/Hartman and many others have tried the Newman setup- a report on the
experiment:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jlnaudin/html/NMac0619.htm


5) IRELAND'S BIGGEST INVENTION SINCE GUINNESS?
Utter heresy. This low blow demsonstrates quite clearly that these people
are not only shameless but also can't afford a true power analyzer! See the
fine report
"Dangers In Measuring The Power Of AC Devices With Meters" by Patrick
Bailey, INE/EEMF Conference 2001

6) Impervious to scepticism, Jasker's makers see the first practical
application of their technology as a stand-alone generator for home use,
although the automotive industry could also be a near-term target given
the huge investment in developing substitutes for petrol-fuelled engines."
(right...the 300 watt auto engine, can't wait for that)

Regards,

Jones Beene



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 22 12:43:27 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
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Stephen Lajoie wrote:

>Ever notice how these stories never explain the principle behind how the
>device works?

You cannot expect Reuters or an ordinary newspaper to explain the principle 
behind anything. The reporters do not understand physics. They describe 
hybrid automobiles as "deriving power from the brakes" or some such. That's 
true, sort of. Hybrid cars usually do have regenerative braking. But most 
of the energy is derived from the ICE.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 22 12:51:40 2002
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Subject: Re: Irish F/E invention - Reuters story
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>I think the Irish media establishment will track this guy down and smoke him
>out one way or the other.
>
>Gene


They might want to start with Al Kelly <agkelly eircom.net>, who may have a
clue where to look further.     %^)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 22 13:28:41 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Irish F/E invention - Reuters story
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Jones Beene wrote:

>It's too bad that the writer of this piece, Kevin Smith, chose to drag 
>cold fusion into the fray once again . . .

Yes. I batted off a copy of my Standard Form Letter to Reuters. Not that it 
will do any good.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 22 13:33:15 2002
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Subject: Liquid hydrogen fuel
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This book "Tomorrow's Energy" by P. Hoffman has chapters on hydrogen fuel 
and liquid hydrogen fuel, covering energy density, practicality, safety and 
so on. Based on this I would say liquid hydrogen would be no more dangerous 
than LNG. In aviation, it might be safer than conventional kerosene, 
especially in the event of an accident. I do not think it would work well 
for automotive applications. The extreme cold might "burn" people who 
fiddle with their own cars, and the fuel would boil off after a car was 
left parked for weeks.

- Jed

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From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: Irish F/E invention - Reuters story


  <<snip>>
>
> 3) ...using four 12-volt car batteries as an initial power source, the
> machine powered three 100-watt light bulbs for the duration. A multimeter
> reading of the batteries' voltage before the device started up showed a
> total of 48.9 volts. When it was switched off, a second reading showed
51.2
> volts, indicating that, somehow, they had been reimbursed." (first off, 12
> volt auto batteries should show 12.9-13.3 volts when fully charged so
> something is amiss here and if it's the size or a dishwasher, it no doubt
> contains a big old Newman-type coil inside, so why beat around the
> bush... )
>
  <<snip>>

> Regards,
>
> Jones Beene


Well 4 batteries at 12.225 volts in series giving 48.9 volts is reasonable
as is the
value of 4 batteries at 12.8 volts giving 51.2 volts if the batteries were
slightly
below a full charge.

But I have no comment on the OU claims.

Vince

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From: "Vince Cockeram" <vcockeram lvcm.com>

> Well 4 batteries at 12.225 volts in series giving 48.9 volts is
reasonable
> as is the value of 4 batteries at 12.8 volts giving 51.2 volts if the
batteries were
> slightly below a full charge.

Don't want to quibble over insignificant points since none of this relates
to the main contention these guys are making plus we don't know some very
important points such as the sp. gravity of the battery acid and whether
the reading was open circuit or closed... BUT having just replaced an 18
month old lead acid battery that was reading 12.31 volts open circuit on a
very accurate Simpson voltmeter and finding it was totally dead and talking
to the battery guys at the garage and reading the other stuff on the web: I
would say with some degree of assurance that if the battery were standard
automobile sealed lead-acid, and the reading was only 12.225 volts open
circuit as you state, then it would be most likely be deader than an Irish
doorknob!!

But even if not, the whole thing with these batteries that miraculously
recharge is so reminiscent of the Newman escapades of years past that it is
highly "suspicious" regardless of what the voltage were, and if you reread
my original message this was all that was meant by the battery trivia -
"justifiable suspicion."

I can't believe that vortexians are not wise by now to what appears to be
just some more Newman-esque malarkey, even if it comes with a brogue - and
it is probably more appropriate that we save the finer points of battery
expertise for when and if we get some solid details (which is unlikely).

BTW, Vince, if you will allow me to change the subject to something that is
relevant, whatever happened to that interesting series of experiments that
you were doing looking for hydrinos? Is there any update to what was on the
web
many months ago?

Jones

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Vince
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: Irish F/E invention - Reuters story


> From: "Vince Cockeram" <vcockeram lvcm.com>
>
>> Well 4 batteries at 12.225 volts in series giving 48.9 volts is
>> reasonable as is the value of 4 batteries at 12.8 volts giving 51.2 volts
if the
>> batteries were slightly below a full charge.
>
> Don't want to quibble over insignificant points since none of this relates
> to the main contention these guys are making plus we don't know some very
> important points such as the sp. gravity of the battery acid and whether
> the reading was open circuit or closed... BUT having just replaced an 18
> month old lead acid battery that was reading 12.31 volts open circuit on a
> very accurate Simpson voltmeter and finding it was totally dead and
talking
> to the battery guys at the garage and reading the other stuff on the web:
I
> would say with some degree of assurance that if the battery were standard
> automobile sealed lead-acid, and the reading was only 12.225 volts open
> circuit as you state, then it would be most likely be deader than an Irish
> doorknob!!

Ahh, but you cannot test with just a voltmeter due to the fact that
lead-acid
batteries will fail with a high internal resistance. This is the case when
you
get in your vehicle and the interior light appears to light at a normal
illumination but as soon as you load it with the starter, the light goes
out.
 The neighborhood auto parts store puts a 50 ampere load on the battery
with their tester. So a bad battery can show normal voltage when not
under load.
Once had a failure like this; stopped for gas, when I filled up and went to
start the car there was a "thump" from under the hood but no cranking.
 Visual inspection of the battery showed nothing. Interior (dome) light
 lit normally but if the headlights were turned on everything was dead.
Interior light came back on when headlights were turned off. Battery
voltage was 12.6 volts, under no load. I believe the "thump" I heard
was one of the internal connections in the battery frying.
 My truck will crank just fine with 10.5 volts reading in the battery.

>
> But even if not, the whole thing with these batteries that miraculously
> recharge is so reminiscent of the Newman escapades of years past that it
is
> highly "suspicious" regardless of what the voltage were, and if you reread
> my original message this was all that was meant by the battery trivia -
> "justifiable suspicion."

I completly agree.
>
> I can't believe that vortexians are not wise by now to what appears to be
> just some more Newman-esque malarkey, even if it comes with a brogue - and
> it is probably more appropriate that we save the finer points of battery
> expertise for when and if we get some solid details (which is unlikely).
>
> BTW, Vince, if you will allow me to change the subject to something that
is
> relevant, whatever happened to that interesting series of experiments that
> you were doing looking for hydrinos? Is there any update to what was on
the
> web many months ago?
>
> Jones
>
The Hydrogen/Potassium glow discharge experiments which I started in
March 1997 were to prove to me, for investment purposes, that Dr. Mills
was not spouting BS.  I was sucessful in proving to myself that he has
found a new way of extracting energy from hydrogen during the
experimental run on March 18, 2000 when a run-away occurred. Here
is the post to Vortex:

**************begin Vortex post**********************
Here is all the raw data from run 031800 as recorded in my lab notebook.
Run conducted Saturday March 18, 2000.

 Very smooth run, I tried various fill pressures in the course of
the run without much effect, nice steady glow and power in until
T+160 when I decided to increase power from 20 watts to 30 watts.

Tc of course began to rise over the next 15 minutes as expected but at
T+ 174:30 the power meter suddenly indicates five (5) watts.
The two parallel backup meters confirmed the reading on the Texmate meter!
Tube voltage changed slightly from 463 volts to 469 but there was a BIG
change in tube current. It dropped from 65.1 milliamps to 12.1 milliamps !!

I have no idea what caused this. The only thing changing at the time this
happened was the rising tube temperature after the power increase at T+160.
The tube ran at this low current draw mode ( 11.1 TO 13.2 mA ) for a full 20
minutes,
temperature rising rapidly for the entire time, 20 minutes plus 3 additional
minutes
thermal delay.

Absolutely must find the cause of this.
 Tc/watt jumped from around 17 to over 90!! Possibly the higher power input
caused big release of potassium that is contained in the cathode quartz
sleeve.
How to control this? MUST control this.

I will attempt an exact re run of this but without the fill pressure
changes.
I plan running the tube at 20 watts to a stable temperature at the fill
pressure
that was in the tube at the time of the Tc runaway (about 26 torr), and then
increase
the power from 20 to 30 watts. Stay tuned folks. I WILL solve this.
  <<snip raw data stuff>> [if you want to see it it's probably in the
archives]
************end of Vortex post****************

Well I never was sucessful in replicating the result I got but I saw it
happen! Just
once, but so what?  I had achieved exactly what I started out to do,
that is _prove to ME_ that Dr. Mills has got a hold of something really big
that
will be worth my investment if BlackLightPower ever goes public.

Since that day in March 2000 Dr. Mills has published some very interesting
papers dealing with glow discharges using Hydrogen/Argon/Helium gas
mixtures and Strontium metal as a catalyst. I am thinking of possibly
trying that approach. Problem is, in a garage lab there are so many unknowns
due to temperature varations, humidity, contamination and whatever.
I believe that the day I saw the runaway reaction all was just right with
all
the conditions for a perfect experimental run. I tried to reproduce what
happened that day but was not sucessful.  So I saw what I saw and that
was quite enough for me.

Best Regards,
Vince Cockeram
Las Vegas



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Gnorts, Vorts,

Did anyone ever see anything published by Dr. Noever, et. al.
regarding NASA's experiments during the 1999 Turkish eclipse to
test the Allais Effect (13.5 degree sudden change in rotation of
a Foucault's Pendulum)?

I find nothing new on the NASA news web page.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 23 17:27:48 2002
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Subject: Energy, thy name is MUD!
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 16:28:47 -0500
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Hi All.

Nothing terribly new here, but thought you might
find this article about bioelectricity from mud
interesting.

http://www.geolsoc.org.uk/template.cfm?name=ElectronMud

Not much yet, but still more than what can be
demonstrably drawn from (insert favorite fringe idea here).

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 23 23:09:41 2002
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Tuesday night Joe Newman was interviewed on the Roger Friedenberg 
Show, http://www.regularguy.com . I called in to the show last night 
and mentioned J. Naudin's website and recounted how Joe's book had 
been instrumental in my study of physics. Roger told me that a friend 
had built a solar powered Newman Motor, The back EMF was used to 
power an electrolyzing cell. He also stated that Newman's gyrating 
atom theory was instrumental in the development of the particle 
laser. Does anybody know anything about this?
-- 

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Subject: MSNBC has Jasker device photo
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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All,

MSNBC site has photo of Jasker device in operation.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/692199.asp?cp1=1#BODY

Gene Mallove


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 24 08:47:22 2002
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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 11:44:02 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Convention energy R&D troubles similar to those of CF
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Here are some interesting quotes from the book "Tomorrow's Energy," by P. 
Hoffman, p. 110 - 112.

[In 1997] the international hydrogen community was set abuzz by reports 
that two scientists at Northeastern University, Nelly Rodriguez and Terry 
Baker, had developed a graphite nanofiber storage material that would store 
as much as 65 percent (by weight) of hydrogen. That was a truly sensational 
number; most conventional storage systems store hydrogen in low 
single-digit percentages. Rodriguez and Baker calculated that their system 
would soak up enough gaseous hydrogen at moderate pressures and room 
temperatures to give a fuel cell car a range of 5000 miles or so. A tank 
filled with graphite nanofibers would be about half the size of a 
conventional gasoline tank and would weigh about 190 pounds. The US 
Department of Energy and DaimlerChrysler supported Rodriguez and Baker for 
a while, but they stopped after concluding that nanofiber storage was not 
likely to be a commercial reality in time for the launch of commercial fuel 
cell cars planned for around 2004 or 2005. . . . . Apparently no other 
experts had been able to duplicate Rodriguez and Baker's astonishing 
claims. Skepticism ran rampant. Still, Rodriguez and Baker weren't giving 
up. Subsequently supported by Ford and perhaps others, they continued their 
investigations. At a Canadian hydrogen conference in early 1999, Rodriguez 
said that further breakthroughs had been achieved, that various key 
technologies had been "substantially improved," that she and Baker had 
achieved as much as 50 percent storage capacity and 30 percent weight 
release of hydrogen at room temperature, and that she expected no major 
problems in achieving commercial status of the technology within 3 years.

. . . At the spring 2000 DoE Hydrogen Program Review meeting, Michael 
Heben, head of the NREL effort, reported that his team had achieved storage 
capacities of up to 7 percent by weight at room temperatures and pressures 
in small samples of 1 -- 2 milligrams, meeting or exceeding benchmark 
standards set by the DoE program. "In 1995," said Heben, "there was less 
than 1 gram of single wall nanotubes in the entire world. Today, several 
labs produce a gram a day." Heben's group has entered a two-year 
Cooperative Research and Development Agreement with Honda of America, Inc. 
to advance the technology.

Still, there is skepticism. Two General Motors scientists, Gary Tibbetts 
and Frederick Pinkerton, and a California Institute of Technology 
researcher, Channing Ahn, reported at the spring 2000 Canadian Hydrogen 
Association meeting that their respective studies of carbon nanotubes 
storage had persuaded them that all the aforementioned numbers were way 
off. All three measured storage of only about 1 weight percent or less of 
hydrogen at room temperatures and varying pressures, casting "serious 
doubts" on the claims, as Tibbetts put it.

END QUOTES

This sounds a lot like CF. Claims are not replicated, and we do not know 
whether they cannot be replicated, or whether other researchers are not 
trying very hard to replicate. They may not be seriously interested in 
replicating because it was Not Invented Here. The samples are much too 
small to be measured with confidence using ordinary instruments. The 
results are disputed by experts.

I know that research is one of the most difficult jobs around, but 
sometimes I get a feeling that many researchers are inept.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 24 09:13:35 2002
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whats your opionion?
hoax or reall?


At 09:48 AM 1/24/02 -0800, you wrote:

>All,
>
>MSNBC site has photo of Jasker device in operation.
>
>http://www.msnbc.com/news/692199.asp?cp1=1#BODY
>
>Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 24 09:54:42 2002
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1) The illumination of three 100 Watt light bulbs does not indicate that
300 watt was provided. If the three batteries are in series, of if you
take the aprox 50 volts that was measured, then the power would be much
less. Not that light bulbes are not linear in their resistance. 

2) Nothing is said about how the device works and there is no imformation
as to how it can be replicated. Thus, a compentant scientist would say
they don't know if the claims are true or not, as there are no scientific
claims.


On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

> 
> All,
> 
> MSNBC site has photo of Jasker device in operation.
> 
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/692199.asp?cp1=1#BODY
> 
> Gene Mallove
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 24 09:59:09 2002
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On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Stephen Lajoie wrote:
> 
> >Ever notice how these stories never explain the principle behind how the
> >device works?
> 
> You cannot expect Reuters or an ordinary newspaper to explain the principle 
> behind anything. The reporters do not understand physics. They describe 
> hybrid automobiles as "deriving power from the brakes" or some such. That's 
> true, sort of. Hybrid cars usually do have regenerative braking. But most 
> of the energy is derived from the ICE.

It looks to me like the reason in this particular case is because the
information isn't being offered. 

Is this another variation of Beardon's MEG? We don't know. What I do know
is that some people don't know how to measure power. 

Illuminating three light bulbs rated at 100 Watts at 120 VAC to measure DC
power at 50 odd volts is not one of them. 



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 24 10:53:35 2002
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Stephen Lajoie wrote:

 > >Ever notice how these stories never explain the principle behind how the
> > >device works?
> >
> > You cannot expect Reuters or an ordinary newspaper to explain the 
> principle
> > behind anything. . . .

>It looks to me like the reason in this particular case is because the
>information isn't being offered.

Probably it isn't being offered, but we don't know this. You would have to 
attend the press conference or read original source material before 
concluding that the guy offered no information. Also, he may have offered 
an idiosyncratic explanation that no reporter or scientist would 
understand. People who work in isolation for 23 years can develop their own 
terminology and a unique set of concepts. This does not mean they're wrong. 
They may use nonstandard terminology to express conventional ideas.


>What I do know
>is that some people don't know how to measure power.

Lots of people!


>Illuminating three light bulbs rated at 100 Watts at 120 VAC to measure DC 
>power at 50 odd volts is not one of them.

People like this never seem to learn that 100 W lights will glow at 20 or 
50 watts. The only way to use them would be to measure candle power, which 
is a round-about way to measure power. Why not use a direct meter?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 24 10:58:30 2002
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Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:51:02 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Hydrino replication (was Irish F/E invention)
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Hi Vince,

> > BTW, Vince, if you will allow me to change the subject to something
that
> > is relevant, whatever happened to that interesting series of
experiments that
> > you were doing looking for hydrinos? Is there any update to what was on
> >the web many months ago?

> The Hydrogen/Potassium glow discharge experiments which I started in
> March 1997 were to prove to me, for investment purposes, that Dr. Mills
> was not spouting BS.  I was sucessful in proving to myself that he has
> found a new way of extracting energy from hydrogen during the
> experimental run on March 18, 2000 when a run-away occurred. Here
> is the post to Vortex: [snip]

Thanks for reposting this!

I must have read it initially but the relevance of the "run-away" that you
witnessed somehow escaped memory.

I'm sure that I am not alone in hoping that you will somehow find a way to
continue with this work using the improved reactants, despite the
conditions that plague all garage experimenters... especially since you
have taken such care to get accurate readings and also especially since so
few others have attempted to replicate the plasma cell (or at least gone
public with such).

> Tube voltage changed slightly from 463 volts to 469 but there was a BIG
> change in tube current. It dropped from 65.1 milliamps to 12.1 milliamps
!!

> I have no idea what caused this. The only thing changing at the time this
> happened was the rising tube temperature after the power increase at
T+160.
> The tube ran at this low current draw mode ( 11.1 TO 13.2 mA ) for a full
20
> minutes

At first blush,  wouldn't this seem to indicate that certain exacting
parameters in your cell were reached, and following that, you suceeded in
"shrinking" most all of the reactant that was in the tube. Since the
temperature continued to rise while the current was dropping by  close to
80%, it would seem that,  (if all of the P(in) were being converted into
heat), then you went far into thermal OU !
.
>  Possibly the higher power input  caused big release of potassium that is
contained in the > cathode quartz sleeve.

Well, if that were the case wouldn't it have lowered both the current draw
and also the heat output? Or were you sugesting that the plasma had
previously been "starved" of K?

> Well I never was sucessful in replicating the result I got but I saw it
> happen! Just once, but so what?

I wonder if this relates somehow to the difficulty that BLP is having in
getting a commercial  product  to market? ...Well, forget about just
getting something to market, just a public demo would be nice. It is also
of course eerily reminiscent of many of the past issues with CF in that the
occasional success cannot be doubted but after 12 years, no one has yet
provided a "bulletroof" demo to show in public.

> Since that day in March 2000 Dr. Mills has published some very
interesting
> papers dealing with glow discharges using Hydrogen/Argon/Helium gas
> mixtures and Strontium metal as a catalyst. I am thinking of possibly
> trying that approach.

Yes, many of us are hoping that you will continue with the work and wish
you success.

Regards,

Jones Beene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 24 11:00:29 2002
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Subject: has Jasker device photo
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>All,
>
>MSNBC site has photo of Jasker device in operation.
>
>http://www.msnbc.com/news/692199.asp?cp1=1#BODY
>
>Gene Mallove

Thanks for posting this Gene, I noted with interest Parksie's comment 
that this is all voodoo science. It would appear that the old boy has 
built the first free running, free energy machine. Too bad about 
Eric's $10,000

.


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 24 12:30:29 2002
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thomas malloy wrote:

>Thanks for posting this Gene, I noted with interest Parksie's comment that 
>this is all voodoo science.

Robert Park is almost certainly right, because he makes a safe bet. It is 
like going to horse race and betting that six horses chosen at random will 
lose.


>It would appear that the old boy has built the first free running, free 
>energy machine.

It is possible he has, but very unlikely. Dozens of people have made 
similar claims, but as far as I know, not a single one has ever been 
replicated or independently tested by a competent investigator. A book by 
Keith Tutt, "The Search for Free Energy" describes these machines and their 
inventors. The accounts are so similar and so uniformly stupid they are 
tedious to read. They sound like the screenplays from a batch of 
third-rate, low budget 1950s science fiction movies. The inventors always 
hold back, and in the end they take their secrets to the grave. They give 
some hackneyed reason to hold back: they are bitter because they were 
cheated by a business associate; they can't get a patent; they're afraid of 
nefarious Men in Black; they don't want to hand over such enormous power to 
humanity; they think humankind is not ready for their genius (as Correa 
said). The tragic last scene in these tales was described by Arthur Clarke: 
A dark stormy night, the castle on the hill burns and explodes. As the 
inventor is crushed by falling machinery, the voice-over intones: "there 
are some things Man is Not Meant to Know."


>Too bad about Eric's $10,000

The $10,000 offer is bogus. He should have paid the CF scientists years 
ago. If they do not convince him, nothing will, short of commercial sales 
of working devices. He is a gutless conformist pretending to be an 
iconoclast. He will believe in CF only when the establishment tells him it 
is okay to believe it.

It is hard to say which is worse: the Eric Kriegs who refuse to look at 
overwhelming evidence, or people who believe all claims without any evidence.

I do not like to be negative or cynical, but history points to the likely 
outcome of this Jasker story. Like many other perpetual motion machines, 
this is supposedly "represented" by a company that will license it. 
Usually, decades pass and not a single license is issued. No independent 
engineer or scientist is allowed to look at the machine. The only thing the 
company sells are shares to gullible members of the public. I hope this is 
not the case with the Jasker device, but it has been the case with every 
similar electric device I have ever heard of or investigated. There is no 
credible evidence that any of them are real.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 24 12:42:49 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Robert Hanbury Brown obit.
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See:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,60-2002038476,00.html

Brown was a scientist of the old school. Some familiar sounding quotes:

. . . Astronomer from the heroic age who built his own radio-telescope at 
Jodrell Bank, and contributed to the discovery of the quasar . . .

. . . In 1949 he sought an avenue through which he could return to a 
university to do research for a higher degree. He joined Bernard Lovell, 
who had returned to Manchester University after the war with trailers full 
of former Army and RAF radar equipment, which he had installed in the 
grounds of the university's botanical department at Jodrell Bank. With the 
help of J. A. Clegg he had also built a 218ft diameter paraboloid from 
scaffolding poles, hawsers and wire, with which he was recording radio 
waves from space.

. . . Lovell was now making plans for a huge steerable radio telescope. Few 
scientists or engineers believed it was either structurally feasible or 
scientifically useful, so Hanbury Brown's discovery with the fixed 
paraboloid was of cardinal importance in providing clear evidence of the 
practicality of such work.

. . . [Brown] proceeded to design a system for the measurement of stellar 
diameters. For the telescopes, he borrowed two army searchlights and he 
succeeded in measuring the diameter of Sirius under extreme winter 
conditions in 1955-56. The publication of this result caused an 
intellectual storm, with many eminent physicists claiming that the 
measurements were false because they defied the fundamental principles of 
physics. . . .

. . . Hanbury Brown was a scientist of the heroic age who could design and 
construct his own equipment. This enabled him to break through intellectual 
and physical barriers and to carry through projects that might well be 
rejected as impossible today. . . .


- JR
  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 24 22:26:27 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Irish F/E invention - Reuters story
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:23:07 +1100
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:50:12 -0500:
>Stephen Lajoie wrote:
[snip]
>>Illuminating three light bulbs rated at 100 Watts at 120 VAC to measure DC 
>>power at 50 odd volts is not one of them.

Just because that was the battery voltage, doesn't necessarily mean that
it was also the voltage applied to the lamps (though it may have been).

Jed wrote:
>
>People like this never seem to learn that 100 W lights will glow at 20 or 
>50 watts. The only way to use them would be to measure candle power, which 
>is a round-about way to measure power. Why not use a direct meter?
[snip]
I agree, a meter would be more convincing to experts, but would lose the
graphic appeal of lit lamps ;).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 25 06:43:02 2002
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Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:38:41 -0500
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>From their web site:

http://www.jasker.com/article2.htm

"The methodology technique is accomplished by the innovative
application in logical sequence of specifically selected
constituent components whose performance compliment each other
and function in co-operation."

Now, I truly understand.  And we should all be grateful since:

http://www.jasker.com/article1.htm

'"THIS INVENTION EFFECTIVELY GUARANTEES THE CONTINUITY OF
MANKIND".'

Personally, I am greatly relieved.  ;)

Terry

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sniff. sniff...

Is that scam I smell?

Really, when I'v seen techno-buzzword bingo like that in the past, it has
always been part of a scam.

On Fri, 25 Jan 2002, Terry Blanton wrote:

> >From their web site:
> 
> http://www.jasker.com/article2.htm
> 
> "The methodology technique is accomplished by the innovative
> application in logical sequence of specifically selected
> constituent components whose performance compliment each other
> and function in co-operation."
> 
> Now, I truly understand.  And we should all be grateful since:
> 
> http://www.jasker.com/article1.htm
> 
> '"THIS INVENTION EFFECTIVELY GUARANTEES THE CONTINUITY OF
> MANKIND".'
> 
> Personally, I am greatly relieved.  ;)
> 
> Terry
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jan 25 19:36:07 2002
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Jan 25, 2002
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:05:13 -0500 (EST)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 25 Jan 02   Washington, DC

1. DOE VOODOO: INSPECTOR GENERAL UNCOVERS MORE HIGH-TECH DOWSING.
The DOE Office of Environmental Management supports development
of innovative environmental cleanup technologies.  It would be
hard to imagine anything more innovative than "Passive Magnetic
Resonance Anomaly Mapping," which combines an electronic system
and a human operator into a single bio-sensory unit by connecting
the operator at the wrists to an electronic system strapped to
his waist.  The device is supposed to locate underground water,
faults, fractures, buried objects and chemicals.  Specifics on
the interaction between the operator and the electronics are, of
course, proprietary.  However, it relies on the operator's
ability to sense tiny changes in magnetic fields.  You've been
having trouble sensing magnetic fields?  Not to worry.  The
operator, a Ukrainian, is said to be the only person in the world
who can.  According to the DOE Inspector General's report, no
peer review was sought before spending $408,750 on field tests. 
You will be shocked to learn that it failed every test.  The
company that developed it blamed calibration problems.  We are
reminded that DOE also bought into the DKL LifeGuard.  It was
supposed to detect a human heartbeat through 500 ft. of concrete
and steel(WN 25 Sep 98). Before that, DOE fell for the Quadro
Tracker, a dowsing rod with lights and buttons (WN 12 Jan 96).

2. IRISH VOODOO: REUTERS BITES ON THE LATEST FREE-ENERGY CLAIM. 
I got a call this week from a Reuters correspondent in Dublin who
had witnessed a demonstration of the Jasker Power System, a motor
that is said to replenish its own energy source.  All he could
tell me about it was that it's the "size of a dishwasher," and it
kept three 100-watt light bulbs lit for two hours without running
down the "starting batteries."  To prevent the idea from being
stolen, everything else was secret. It was developed in Ireland
to keep the U.S. government from suppressing it.  What did I
think?  I think he was a damned fool for covering it.  The first
warning sign of voodoo science is that it's pitched directly to
the media.  Second, details of how it works are withheld.  Third,
a powerful establishment is said to be attempting to suppress it.

3. PRAYER: DOES BELIEF INFLUENCE WHAT THE RESEARCHER REPORTS? 
As WN reported last month, Mayo Clinic researchers could find no
benefit to coronary patients from prayers if the patients didn't
know they were being prayed for.  This week, writing in Time.com,
Leon Jaroff points out that, by contrast, Elizabeth Targ, who is
funded by the National Center for Complementary and Alternative
Medicine, found a positive distance healing effect on AIDS and
cancer patients.  Jaroff says such work should be monitored by
qualified scientists from outside the paranormal and quack
communities.  "Past experience," he writes, "suggests that under
such safeguards miracles do not occur."

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's, and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jan 27 19:12:55 2002
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Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:03:19 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Irish OU, Newman, Mills
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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FWIW:

>From the depths of the FWIW cellar, the very dregs of "for what it's worth,"
here are a few thoughts that might add some bit of justification to the efforts
of those optimists who are desperately clinging to the Irish OU story, or even
the long-running Newman saga (which those blokes most likely copied).

This should in no way be taken as an endorsement of Joe Newman.

Even though Newman's shortcomings, both personal and intellectual, are well
documented on the internet, I believe that there is some likelihood that on at
least on one or more past occasions he has indeed witnessed an energy anomaly.
The most likely time frame, surprisingly, was in the early days in Mississippi
20 or more years ago (and there is a good reason behind this). Furthermore, it
seems likely that most of his present credibility problems stem largely from the
fact that he has been unable to publicly demonstrate the anomaly, and in fact,
he actually appears farther away now than ever from breakeven. But, rather than
admit that he doesn't have a clue, he has continued to carry on (and take money
from investors) under the assumption that his earlier obviously incorrect
theories were still valid.

There are a number of alternative ideas that can be co-opted in order to explain
Newman's motor - and some of these do have a demonstrable degree of logic and
experimental validity. These ideas might serve to explain Newman's putative
energy anomaly, and also explain why it is that he has been unable to reproduce
it.

Rather than try to recreate the whole historical record of the past several
decades, let me just throw out some salient points that can be tied together by
viewing the Newman energy anomaly (if there is one) in the context of the Mills'
hydrino.

1.) Newman's technique employs a large copper coil, rotating magnets, many
smallish batteries ( lead-acid batteries or alkaline) in series to provide
moderately high voltage - but most importantly, and this is the key, an
intentionally *"sparky"* commutator - plus the no-diode circuitry to allow
highly-pulsed spiky "back EMF" to return to the batteries.

2.) The ability to "recharge" dead batteries is related to some degree to the
ability of the back EMF to facilitate the desulfurization of the lead
electrodes, but there may be more to the story.

3.) The Newman technique fails miserably when large capacitors are substituted
for the batteries. It is no more than 50% efficient.

4.) Both Lead-acid and alkaline cells contain (or at least they once contained)
numerous elements that are known to be Mill's catalyst (that is, at certain
ionization levels they present a 27.2 eV "hole"). Normally there would be no
possibility of higher-level ionization in these batteries. When connected in
series, however, as Newman normally arranges them, or otherwise
voltage-amplified by sparking, the requisite potential for hydrino formation can
be reached.

5) In past decades, almost all commercial batteries contained a much higher
levels of heavy metal contaminants, especially arsenic, a Mill's catalyst, and
also the Ni, Fe, Mo mixed ferrics that not only are Mill's catalysts but also
good hydrogen dissociators. If you are old enough, you may remember when
recharging your battery with a portable transformer unit would often mean you
had to be very careful with hydrogen gas buildup. That problem is now much
lessened due to the regulation of alloy content and the elimination of most of
the hydrogen dissociators.

6) When the EPA cleaned up batteries in the eighties, they may have helped the
environment significantly but they probably, though inadvertently, ruined
Newman's last chance to demonstrate his anomaly. If it exists at all, it
probably depends on what we now describe as "below ground state" hydrogen
formation. The older style batteries that were loaded with lots of ferric
dissociators as well as arsenic and other heavy metal hydrino catalysts, may not
be absolutely required for hydrinos, but these "toxics" probably make getting
the system into a narrow parameter range all the more easy.

7) Even with the right kind of batteries, the parameters for hydrino formation
would be tight, and that is likely why the technique couldn't be replicated on
demand. Also, when you "shrink" hydrogen for even a short time from a battery
solution, then the remnant O2 would certainly oxidize the electrodes and foul up
the mix and throw off your parameters.

If you want to get into this more deeply check out page 149 of Mill's CQM (2000
edition), keeping in mind that the battery is very similar to any other
electrolytic CF or Mills wet cell. You will see that that lead itself is a good
Mill's catalyst at a combined 54.386 eV (by using three level ionization.)
Arsenic is better at the higher level stages like 1/6 shrinkage, where you
really start seeing some serious energy producing action with hundreds of
anomalous eVs.

If you have added arsenic, nickel, and iron in a lead-acid  electrolytic cell,
or K and Sr and Ni in an alkaline cell, then you have both dissociation and also
the range of mid to high level shrinkage covered. That extra ionization at the
higher levels is probably where Newman got his anomaly (if he got it at all).

We may never know (unless the Irish have access to old style toxic batteries).

If they do really have something along these lines , then here are some
predictions:
1) There will be subsystems included to actively vent the batteries of oxygen
plus a subsystem to automatically monitor the specific gravity of the acid and
keep it constant.

2) Also, it wouldn't surprise me if they are using something other, or in
addition to, sulfuric acid, perhaps a potassium acid sulfate.


Regards,

Jones





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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Irish OU, Newman, Mills
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:59:02 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:03:19 -0800:
[snip]
>Rather than try to recreate the whole historical record of the past several
>decades, let me just throw out some salient points that can be tied together by
>viewing the Newman energy anomaly (if there is one) in the context of the Mills'
>hydrino.
[snip]
Interesting notion. Could also be behind John Bedini's efforts.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 28 01:29:38 2002
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Robin - Interesting u mention the Bedini device -
What ever happened to him?

I went from Ireland to meet with Joh nBedini in Spokane - Not a trip down
the garden !!
he never turned up and finally I found him several 100,s mile away working
on a radio station.

Did anyone get a confirmed result from his ideas??
----- Original Message -----
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 8:59 AM
Subject: Re: Irish OU, Newman, Mills


> In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:03:19 -0800:
> [snip]
> >Rather than try to recreate the whole historical record of the past
several
> >decades, let me just throw out some salient points that can be tied
together by
> >viewing the Newman energy anomaly (if there is one) in the context of the
Mills'
> >hydrino.
> [snip]
> Interesting notion. Could also be behind John Bedini's efforts.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 28 10:16:28 2002
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Subject: Nibiru
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Pat Bailey sent me this URL. A guest on the Art Bell Program was 
talking about this too. He said that there are photographs of Nibiru. 
If that is the case, astrophysics being the well developed science 
that it is, we will soon know.

http://padrak.com/ufo/Nibiru/planetX.htm
-- 

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From: harvey norris <harvich yahoo.com>
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> >Rather than try to recreate the whole historical
> record of the past several
> >decades, let me just throw out some salient points
> that can be tied together by
> >viewing the Newman energy anomaly (if there is one)
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

When you start doing some research on actual coil
current propagation speeds of supposed coil
geometries, the Newman anomaly in the very least, can
be theorized to exist before you even test for it!.
The first myth that has to be dispensed with is the
speed of light hypothesis. This is the essential
problem that anyone reading Newman analysis should
have, when okay folks, we're going to stop the current
going at the speed of light through the coil, and
thereby trap electrons in the coil??? The first time I
heard that it sounded like rubbish. But investigation
of the concept shows that remarkable things can be
done with it. In fact it is fairly easy to give an
example of theoretical overunity easily available from
AC, simply based on the size of the coil, and when
that size makes things possible.

I have had these Newman size coils at lower 23 gauge
coils for some years, and done experimention at 60,
188, and currently at 480 hz. I have even built and
recorded a copper magnetic motor made in a unique
magnetic compression field manner using 4 field coils,
so I am well aware of the definitions of apparent
power vs real power and am satisfied that most
phemenon are not overunity. In order to explain a
specific fine point, where the definitions themselves
will lead one to a virtual overunity concept, and also
proof of concept machine and recordings previously
made ect...
It becomes necessary to define our definition of
propagation speed. The propagation of the speed of
light varies through different materials. The 
electrical standing wave that will be set up on a
given length is also dependent on the frequency,based
on propagation at c;where the standard quarter
wavelength theory can also be initially applied. It is
found that for some reason for a single solenoidal
winding with a large ht/diameter ratio, the resonant
freq is a little higher than what quarter wavelength
calculations will give. By giving the solenoid an
extra top load capacity, this will lower the resonant
freq back to or below its quarter wavelenght value,
which then displays itself as the maximum volatge gain
the device can make as a standing wave, or reinforced
timed impulses that produce an overall gain in voltage
until point of discharge.

Now it then becomes logical to assume that the large
ht /diameter secondary is used because that is the one
that produces the least voltage between winds, which
can be surmissed to be the quantity of internal 
capacity in a coil, which ordinarily inhibits tesla
type hi voltage discharges.

Thus to determine exactly HOW MUCH INTERNAL CAPACITY
can be placed in an inductance, we should first
construct two identically length spirally wound flat
type conductors, and we can wind them in a strictly
bifilar fashion, to secure more interwinding
capacitance,and then note the differences of resonant
frequency each identical length displays. For the case
example here we are using 200 ft. Thus first we must
note the REDUCTION in resonant frequency made by
interwinding capacity.

For 200 ft, this is .0378 mile, the quarter wavelenght
for the vibration, hence the wavelength is 4 times
this at .151 mile.  By dividing by C, yeiding a small
time period, of which the reciprocal is the resonant
frquency of 1,194,600 hz, for 200 ft by calculations
So we have initially established what the resoanant
frequency should be at a propagation at C. However
when the inductors are excited into high frequency by
means of a ferrite/neon/alternator source as shown at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/Outer%20DSR/Dsc00010.jpg
shows the two 4 set spirals placed on either side of
the ferrite 
rod.  Since we now have a neon in series with the
ferrite as an 
interphasal pathway, it is easier to understand how
the ferrite can 
emit EM, since the hf actions of excited plasma are
connected in 
series. In any case the neon seems to make reading the
amperage 
consistantly an easier job, which for either component
alone becomes 
difficult, if not impossible. The scope in the
background is set for 
50 mv voltage deflection at 1 us/div, or 10 us per
sweep. The 
ordinary return wound coil spiral set has a cycle in
~3 us or 333,000 
hz. The bifilar set having a reverse wound dual set
spiral, and 
employing more interwinding voltage difference by
staggered windings 
has a reduced frequency of 4 us/cycle or 250,000 hz.
Both these coils 
systems consist of 200 ft of braided flat spiral wire,
and the scope 
selection is set for dual channel viewing The 50mv
volt level of 
signal is small compared to the 60 hz polar arc gap
method, where 
these hf signals can become in the 5 volt range. The
plate method 
however has not been tried yet with alternator
methods.



Now to conclude here, EVERY HF ARC GAP SYSTEM is more
or less exploited for the fact that the resonant
frequency can be found from L and C. But with a Newman
size coil, the resonant frequency by standing wave
considerations alone becomes extremely long. For the
23 gauge coils, these are 80 lbs with 9 miles of wire.
The quarterwavelength frequency would be around 5000
hz. The model employing a large capacity in its
windings showed at least a 4 fold reduction in
resonant frequency. Now with these large coils a
majority of the 20,000 windings have other windings
directly adjacent to them, being inside the other
windings. Essentially we have to admit we really dont
have a way of determining how low that actual resonant
frequency will be, in fact the actual resonant
frequency may be so low, that it is lower than the
actual source frequency! That bends some minds
itself,taking us into the twilight zone of reasoning
of how could this be?; and amazingly Tesla even
mentions this possibility in his Colorado Spring
Notes. But here to demonstrate that principle another
requirement must come into the picture, the reduction
in resonant frequency may also be dependent on the
factor that a large amount of field movement in space
be taking place, generally translating to the fact
that we may cross a certain margin of voltage
application where the actual power transfer taking
place in the circuit acts to even further reduce the
resonant frequency from a prexistant lower voltage
application state having a higher resonant frequency
in comparison. In any case wildly varying parameters
of the return wave through these 9 mile coils can be
observed.

Now my version of the Russian Woodpecker System, only
uses these 23 gauge coils with 1000 ohms, but imagine
the government in Hartsville,Tenn using 60 hz
resonance with lower gauge coils and higher amperage
consumptions. When I emailed the radio station down
there about my web page and the mpeg showing the
return standing wave gathering energy and exploding
near the source of its voltage source, the net result
seems to be the dropping of MSN/Talk City sponsorship
of the numerous web pages I have tried concerning the
Binary Resonant System, essentially discarding all
these records where I do not have files readily
available for putting this back on the internet.
However this mpeg was not wiped to my knowledge from
this computer so I will shortly be placing it back on
the internet, pending the usual problems with its
viewing.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/1.5%20cm%20Arc%20Gap%20%26%20Kickbacks/Dzl21B3.jpg

shows a 1.5 cm needle arg gap.

A split second after this occurs a high voltage at the
source occurs as in

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/1.5%20cm%20Arc%20Gap%20%26%20Kickbacks/Dzl6344.jpg

these can vary in intensity, as in the big bang;
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/1.5%20cm%20Arc%20Gap%20%26%20Kickbacks/Dzl4356.jpg

Now the variance in amperage demand from this system
from open to close switch is 4q squared, but in the
case with these 60 henry coils have a 15 q in series
resonance, but only a q of 10 in tank resonance. The
switch that reduces the amperage demand 150 times 4 =
600 fold downwards is the ARC ITSELF!  Thats why it is
also a special quenching arc that can start and
extinguish itself many times in a single source
frequency cycle if desired. That switch also reverts
two series resonances into the higher impedance of a
special figure 8 tank circuit. Polarity wise, a series
resonance is opposite to the magnetic field contained
in a tank resonance, and so every time the arc occurs
the magnetic fields serve to also reverse theirselves.

So as the proof of concept thesis, made many years
ago, is to simply stick the inductor in the fields the
coils produce with a single arc gap rf burst /60 hz
cycle and try and determine what is going on. Each
different inductor will not record the resonant
frequency of the emmiting system itself, but instead
those inductors will just ring at their own natural
resonant frequency. Longitudinal nodes can be found.
But most importantly the 60 hz sweep rate will reveal
a paradox worthy of quantum physics. The AC signal can
be seen, but it is constantly switching polarity. WE
can even send this inductively recieved signal and its
rf counterpart through fast recovery diodes to convert
the signal to DC, however what comes out is not DC but
rectified pulses from each opposite polarity signal.
In short the diodes will not rectify this mysterious
AC within  AC phenomenon. It is here then we realize
why the reversals inside a polarity changing emf
itself, are yeilding a flip flopping of the original
signal. During the period of arcing, the amperage
demand to the system is reduced 600 fold. This would
then imply that during arcing, that 600 fold
dimunition of energy from the source would only create
a magnetic field 60 fold less than the field created
in resonance, since the coils having a q of 10 in tank
resonance have 10 time more amperage then inputed.

What this implies then is that when the polarity
reversal of the original magnetic field signal made
from series resonance to parallel is accomplished, the
counterpart mirror image AC signal should appear with
1/60th the volume, but it does not, it appears with
equal volume. Therefore for the duration of arcing,
where high BPS rates may better the effects, we may
deduce that for at least a half a cycle, q squared
more electrons are being moved than are being inputed,
where formerly that has only been accomplished as q
more electrons than being inputed as in the tank
circuit.

One should also note that it is the size and large
inductance of a coil that determines at what point the
energy transfer of fields in resonance can exceed the
ohmic losses of resistance. Here in this example, the
problem is that conventional power input measurements
would become complex for the single arc gap case.
(Which a digital meter cannot measure.)We can also
surmise problems of time that exist, so that we can
say the power input reduction must be very small,
since the ringdown time of the rf spike is small
compared to the cycle time. This also however leaves
us wondering if we can momentarily reverse the AC
polarity, and doing this costs very little amperage
demand on the source, what about those recievers of
induction from the source, where we can view the BRS
as a primary, and those recieving coils as high
frequency secondaries. 

In any case, it is also useful to show this effect on
the generators themselves, which might be hard to do
when procurring the effect from the power grid. One
can use the higher frequencies of the alternator in
accordance with stages of resonant voltage rise, by
use of 3 phase delta series resonances, to increase
the voltage 3 times in sucession from the source
stator, to the interphasal arcing point. The scoping
of the alternator stator voltage shows extra kickback
voltages from the arcing process itself, made by steel
rulers in minscule arc gap, between somewhat
oppositely phased resonances.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/Flux%20Capacitor/1014c.jpg

Thus we are taught to believe that the arcing will
only reduce the demand, but we are not taught that the
arc will go back to instead power the source, as that
near reverse stator signal might influence the drag on
that generator, and what that implies. In the very
least those return voltage spikes might imply a more
efficient way to create arcing. And here again the
problem of making input measurements is obscurred by
two of the meters being incapacitated by the hf
effects of arcings.

In any case all things are not known for sure.
Sincerely Harvey D Norris.




=====
Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 28 10:47:01 2002
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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:40:52 -0500
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
Organization: .
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Sonoluminesence and cavitation existed in nature long before we
built our first boat screw:

http://stilton.tn.utwente.nl/shrimp/

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 28 12:09:34 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Irish OU, Newman, Mills
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 07:04:08 +1100
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In reply to  Noel Whitney's message of Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:40:20 -0000:

>Robin - Interesting u mention the Bedini device -
>What ever happened to him?
>
>I went from Ireland to meet with Joh nBedini in Spokane - Not a trip down
>the garden !!
>he never turned up and finally I found him several 100,s mile away working
>on a radio station.
>
>Did anyone get a confirmed result from his ideas??
[snip]
Other than the girl who took part in the science fair, I have no idea.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 28 13:49:04 2002
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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:42:59 -0800
Subject: More from Aetherometry
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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All,

Just passing this along from www.aetherometry.com.  The first message
concerns fundamental modifications of E-M theory and its Tesla coil
connections. 

The second message concerns a low-delta-T Stirling engine run from the
apparent aether-derived heat developed in a hybrid orgone accumulator.
Part-I appears in Infinite Energy #41, just mailed out.  These are important
experiments in electrical and thermal physics that can be replicated by
those who believe that experiments are primary, theory secondary.  But there
is plenty of theory to keep you busy too... :)

Dr. Eugene Mallove
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
Www.infinite-energy.com
*******


Dear Friends and Colleagues,

Akronos Publishing recently released on its website,

       http://www.aetherometry.com
       
the extraordinary and seminal physical demonstration, by the Correas,
that Tesla radiation is not assimilable to either electromagnetic
field energy or to (ion) fluxes of massbound charges (Experimental
Aetherometry, Vol. 2A, monographs AS2-13 & AS2-14).  As a result of the
intense interest generated by these reports among Tesla afficionados
worldwide, Akronos Publishing is pleased to announce that it has decided
to accelerate the release of the two-part continuation of this
work on ambipolar massfree radiation emitted by Tesla and induction coils.
These two essays, AS2-15 and AS2-16 in Volume 2B of Experimental
Aetherometry, have just been made available.

   Monograph AS2-15:
   Correa, P & Correa, A (1999, 2001)
   The aetherometric approach to solving the problem of magnetism
  
   Monograph AS2-16:
   Correa, P & Correa, A (1999, 2001)
   Aetherometric treatment of the energy radiation output by Tesla coils,
   Part 3:
   Primary massfree electric-and-magnetic waves,
   secondary massbound capacito-inductive waves, and
   tertiary electromagnetic waves

In the first essay, the Correas tackle one of the most fundamental
cornerstones of Maxwellian electrodynamics - the problem of magnetism and
the magnetic field functions H and B, which they proceed to resolve from
first principles - after having first untangled the glaring inconsistencies
of classical theory -  in order to address the problem with a totally novel
and exacting methodology.  Magnetic wave functions for both massbound
and massfree charges are provided, and the precise values of the tesla
and the gauss are, for the first time, consistently defined, in both
classical and aetherometric systems.

In the second essay, the Correas return to experimentation with resonantly
loaded Tesla coils, to provide a complete analysis of their massfree and
massbound electrical, magnetic and electromagnetic functions (wave, field,
current, energy and power), and demonstrate how these devices can be
employed to magnify massfree radiation in excess of the massbound electric
power they consume.  The complete analytical process is presented as forming
one of the operational modules of the Aetheroscope.


Yours,

Laura McFinlay
Akronos Publishing

******

Dear Friends and Colleagues,

AKRONOS Publishing has just made available on its website,

      http://www.aetherometry.com

two new monographs in Volume 4 of Experimental Aetherometry:

 Monograph AS2-25:
 Correa, P & Correa, A (2001)
 AS2-25 Modified Orgone accumulator (HYBORAC) as drive for
 low delta-T Stirling Engines

 Monograph AS2-26:
 Correa, P & Correa, A (2001)
 Modified Orgone accumulator (complete HYBORAC) as nighttime drive for
 low delta-T Stirling Engines


It is only the mechanistic-mathematical distortion of the physical concept
of temperature that 'scientifically' permits the continuation of a systemic
failure to affirm as real, the thermal anomaly first identified by W. Reich
in simple Farday cages and layered ORACs.  Employment of aetherometric
theory - developed upon a systematic critique and re-evaluation of
thermometric orgonomy laid by Reich - permits one to differentiate between
the electromagnetic energy passively absorbed by a black cavity, and the
nonelectromagnetic aether energy drawn in by the same cavity.  When this
cavity is materially configured as a Faraday cage, we find that the latter
exceeds the former (AS2-05; AS2-06; AS2-07), with the result that there is
a factual, verifiable thermal anomaly in these cage-cavities.  In the
present communications, we present evidence - at the very least - that this
thermal anomaly can be employed to drive low delta-T Stirling engines for
periods greater than 14 hours on an autumn day (seven hours of which into
the night) - raising the possibility of a continuous thermal drive, at the
very least during summer months, courtesy of the beautiful star in our
neighbourhood - the Sun.  And if the Stirling motor/modified ORAC coupling
came to a stop, this was not because the To-T fell to zero, or went
negative.
No, get informed - the To-T remained positive throughout.  This is
irrevocable, simple, graspable evidence of 'free energy', as free as
it comes.  


Yours,

Laura McFinlay
Akronos Publishing







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>From bernie haisch...

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:20:31 -0800
From: Bernard Haisch <haisch calphysics.org>
To: FZNIDARSIC aol.com, Edmund Storms <storms2@ix.netcom.com>,
    Scottychubb cs.com, JedRothwell@infinite-energy.com, halfox@uswest.net,
    HALFOX aol.com, editor@infinite-energy.com, GeorgeHM@aol.com,
    vortex-l eskimo.com, Puthoff@aol.com
Cc: haisch calphysics.org
Subject: de Broglie wave

We (Haisch and Rueda) do not claim to have discovered this in our 
Phys. Lett. A paper (http://xxx.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9906084). In the 
paper we cite three sources who previously published the same idea: 
Kracklauer in 1992, de la Pena and Cetto in 1996 and Hunter in 1997. 
The main point of our paper was to suggest a possible connection 
between the Compton resonance frequency and our proposed inertia 
resonance and then to relate that to the already-published de Broglie 
wave interpretation.
Bernie Haisch

>
>Return-path: <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>
>From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
>Full-name: FZNIDARSIC
>Message-ID: <8.1fa73011.2974f5ca aol.com>
>Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 22:02:34 EST
>Subject: I published this first
>To: storms2 ix.netcom.com (Edmund Storms), Scottychubb@cs.com,
>	JedRothwell infinite-energy.com, halfox@uswest.net, HALFOX@aol.com,
>	editor infinite-energy.com, GeorgeHM@aol.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com,
>	Puthoff aol.com
>MIME-Version: 1.0
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>boundary="part2_33.217ea82b.2974f5ca_boundary"
>X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 118
>
>I lectured on this at UIUC.  I published a paper on the in the 
>Journal of New Energy vol 5, no 2, 2000.
>
>I sent puthoff a copy. Now Haisch and Rueda have claimed it to be their idea.
>The idea is that the deBrogle wave is a beat note formed by the a
>reflection of a Doppler shifted Compton wave.
>Thank you Hal Fox at least I on record.  I going to send Mallove 
>another paper on this
>subject.
>
><http://www.calphysics.org/mass.html>California Institute for 
>Physics and Astrophysics: Nature of Mass
>
>
>If Caltek extends this work and comes up with the "Constants of the Motion
>Theory"  I really be pissed.  That my idea.  It a follow through of 
>thie deBroglei idea.
>I sent this stuff out to physical review in 1994.  They rejected it. 
>Thank god for
>Hal Fox.  His publications proves that I was hrer first with this 
>improtant concept.
>
>
>Frank Znidarsic

-- 
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dr. Bernard Haisch
California Institute for Physics & Astrophysics
366 Cambridge Ave.
Palo Alto, CA 94306
-------------------
Director, California Institute for Physics & Astrophysics (CIPA)
Scientific Editor, The Astrophysical Journal
phone: 650-327-6302, fax: 650-327-6294
email: <haisch calphysics.org>, alternate: <haisch@motionsciences.org>
http://www.calphysics.org, http://motionsciences.org
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jan 28 21:05:32 2002
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:58:49 EST
Subject: apology
To: haisch calphysics.org, FZNIDARSIC@aol.com, storms2@ix.netcom.com,
        Scottychubb cs.com, JedRothwell@infinite-energy.com, halfox@uswest.net,
        HALFOX aol.com, editor@infinite-energy.com, GeorgeHM@aol.com,
        vortex-l eskimo.com, Puthoff@aol.com
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I apologize to Haisch and Rueda.  I looked over my email and it does imply 
that I came up with the idea first.  I didn't mean it the way I wrote it.  
I'll have to stop sending out quick e-mails.  Let me explain where I was 
coming from.    I came up with a model that restraining forces contain the 
matter wave function.  I did this in about 1985.  I sent to many Journal 
Editors.  They told me: "Science goes in steps."  "The model has no merit."  
"The idea is not needed."  I believed in what I was doing.  I knew that the 
model had merit and that it was important in the field of energy production, 
nuclear waste reduction, and propulsion.  I hoped that it would not appear in 
press some day.  I hoped not to be told, "We knew that all along."  A 
centerpiece of my logic was that the deBroglie wave was a beat not formed by 
the Compton wave and its Doppler shifted reflection.  I discussed this idea 
with Puthoff in the 1980's.  He said, "That's amazing!"  Puthoff had the idea 
that the wavefunction emitted energy and that the energy was replenished by 
the adsorption of zero point energy.  My idea was that that energy of matter 
was contained when the intensity of the matter wave exceeded the elastic 
limit of space.  I told Puthoff that my model was an inside out version of 
his.   When I first saw the article on the DeBroble wave as a beat note I 
thought.  Here is one of my rejected ideas and it was known all along.  I now 
see that it really was.  I still believe that my model is unique and 
important.  The crown joule of this model is that "The constants of the 
motion tend toward the electromagnetic in a Bose condensate that is stimul
ated at a dimensional frequency of one megahertz meter."  I hope that one 
megahertz meter remains my (Znidarsic's) constant and that no one unknown to 
me had previously discovered it.  Let's continue to work together to discover 
and develop new energy and propulsion technologies.  I am sitting on some 
ideas that I would like to develop.


Frank  Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 29 10:15:13 2002
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 13:07:27 EST
Subject: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
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The following article was posted by Mallove and clearly reports on the 
underwater explosions as plasma forms on the tungsten electrode. Why Mallove 
and Rothwell question my devices ability to crack water by injection into the 
plasma is unscientific, unprofessional and shows only scientific jealousy. 

The bench test ready prototype is finished. A tidbit of new data, a Picture 
and a Video shall be added to the website in a few days. The electrodes are 
all tungsten for these tests and the glow seen is a partial ionic Tungsten 
Plasma ( the tungsten slowly erodes due to vaporized by the electron plasma) 
- Far hotter than the melting point of Tungsten or the old ionic Platinum 
Plasma. Injection of Water will decombine it and injection of organics will 
form synthetic methane - THESE ARE SCIENTIFIC FACTS AND NOT EVEN OPEN TO 
QUESTIONING, as they have already been proven but here is one reference site 
http://www.annistonstar.com/news/2001/as-calhoun-0812-rraeke-1h11v0543.htm. 

Eugene and Jed may, as Jed put it - "shut up." The proof is all here, and 
what it proves is my system MUST crack water when said water is injected into 
the plasma. Forget about the Bonus of system produced mechanical energy - the 
PLASMA is where the Real Power is, and someday eugene & jed will also come to 
understand this. But the time for slandering me for your own ignorance is 
OVER.

Read the below article and then review my website at 
http://members.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html - Then you decide which 
technology is primitive. 

>From now on, I will only answer emails from Petroleum & Power companies and 
possibly some governmental divisions. Otherwise do not expect a response.

http://www.amasci.com/weird/anode.txt
FROM:

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove, Editor-in-Chief
Infinite Energy Magazine
Cold Fusion Technology, Inc.
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302

    Phone: 603-228-4516
    Fax:   603-224-5975
        editor infinite-energy.com

              http://www.infinite-energy.com

*********************************
A word of WARNING right up front: This is potentially VERY DANGEROUS work
and must not be done without maximum, safety precautions and supervision
by those thoroughly versed in laboratory safety!  It involves
high-temperatures, high-voltages, explosive mi xtures of oxygen and
hydrogen, caustic solutions, and steam generation that if improperly
contained could cause a deadly explosion. These are just the beginning
hazards. This is unknown territory.  Drs. Ohmori and Mizuno measured the
transmutation of elem ents in this experiment. Thus, until further notice
^Ë and despite your possible skepticism about their claim of transmutation
^Ë this work must be considered, by definition, nuclear experimentation. 
With that said, we encourage every thoughtful group who can do this
experiment safely to attempt it. Infinite Energy and Cold Fusion
Technology, Inc. take no responsibility for the known or unknown radiation
or other hazards that are associated this experiment. 

*********************************

Dear Colleagues:

After much work we now have what appears to be a marvelous do-it-yourself
"cold fusion" experiment. Any reasonably equipped chem/physics lab can see
the effect within days to a week -- if they get their act together. The
experiment has the following quali ties: 

1. It is visually and audibly spectacular -- brilliant glowing, pink,
purple, lavender with white flashes on an underwater tungsten (W)
electrode ( e.g. 2 mm x 5 mm W foil or 1 cm x 1.6 mm diameter tungsten
welding rod). A plasma-like underwater discharge on the electrode that
often manages to disintegrate or melt tungsten underwater with only about
50 to 80 watts of power over a short period. (Tungsten's melting point is
3680 K or thereabouts.) The sound of the underwater "explosions" on the
cathode -- brilliant white flashes on the purple background plasma -- is
very impressive. 

2. It is *totally reproducible* -- at will -- with no loading time as in
the Pd/heavy water experiments

3. Calorimetry is simple to do because there is so much steam energy
evolved from the reaction that by simply tallying the amount of water
vaporized as steam, one gets over-unity every time (so far). Three groups
have already gotten *preliminary* over-unity results: 1. Ohmori and Mizuno
in Japan, who introduced the phenomenon at ICCF-7 (O/U estimated at
2.6/1); 2. Gene Mallove and FAA engineer Ed Wall here in Bow, NH during
the past ten days -- work continuing -- (CONSERVATIVELY 1.4/1); 3.
Engineer Mark Hugo of Northern States Power in Minnesota (but his
affiliation has nothing to do with his home experiment) -- (CONSERVATIVELY
1.5/1), but owrk still continuing to check for errors. Chemist John
Thompson in the Bahamas, who attended ICCF-7, was the first person outside
of Japan to reproduce the effect and will do calorimetry on it soon. This
will be in IE #20 out on July 22. 

4. No one has patents or may be able to get them since the effect was
noticed in other forms (1916!) and reported extensively in the Journal of
the Electrochemical Society, April, 1950, p.133 in an article titled ("The
Anode Effect in Aqueous Electrolysis," by Herbert Kellogg of the School of
Mines, Columbia University. New York -- Hal Fox found this marvelous
article, since it relates to some of the work his Trenergy Company is
doing weith charge clustgers and radioactivity reduction. This may,
indeed, be related to the underwater electrolysis ability to remediate
nuclear waste. But -- OF COURSE! -- NO *calorimetry* was done in 1950. No
one had any idea that such simple systems could be O/U. The systems were
studied for other reasons.  Further: the present tungsten effect is seen
mainly on the cathode, but it can make the Pt anode incandescent too at
lower water temperature (say 50 C) -- we normally work over 80 C. It is
very mysterious -- was so to Kellogg in 1950 and remains so. 

5. Ohmori and Mizuno found major evidence for transmutation of elements
and volcanic ejection of metals from the tungsten surface -- these SEM
photos were reproduced in their article. They find Hg, Os, Kr, Zn, Cu, Ni,
Fe, Cr, Si, and Mg -- with anomalous isotopic content. Just as I said, in
IE #15/16, this subject is more properly called ³Electro-Alchemy" 

6. WARNING: Ohomori and Mizuno experienced significant apparent
electromagnetic effects on their instruments. They were unsure whether
some of the effect on their neutron counter were evidence of neutrons -- I
doubt the latter, as did Srinivasan of BARC at ICCF7. I have kept a Geiger
counter on during our experiments -- absolutely no sign of major ionizing
radiation, but of course it could be localized within the cell. 

Ohmori and Mizuno's paper at ICCF7: " Strong Excess Energy Evolution, New
Element Production, and Electromagnetic Wave And/Or Neutron Emission in
the Light Water Electrolysis with a Tungsten Cathode."  T. Ohmori and T.
Mizuno, Catalysis Research Center, H okkaido University

Here is my recommended recipe for an experiment to demonstrate the effect: 

1. Take a 250 ml glass beaker, fill to about 200 ml level with 0.5 molar
(0.5 M) K2CO3 -- potassium carbonate solution

2. Get 0.5 mm diameter Pt wire for both anode and cathode leads -- about
15 cm for each lead is adequate length. Shield them with teflon tubing
down to the connection point with the Pt or W. 

3. Use a small piece of Pt foil -- about 2 mm x 5mm on the anode (positive
lead) crimped mechanically to the Pt wire -- no welding is needed.

4. Use a 2 mm x 5 mm size W foil on the cathode - negative side. It is
tricky to attach the W foil (we used 0.1 mm thickness, which can be
pierced with difficulty and the Pt lead wired through). Or, if W welding
rod 1/16-inch diameter is available, wrap t he Pt wire around the W piece
about 0.5 to 1 cm long. Warning: The reaction is so violent that it is
hard to get the cathode piece in rod form not to fall out of its Pt wire
cage! Runs up to 10 minutes or so are usually OK. Mark Hugo has run for up
to 75 minutes , condunsing steam from the reaction -- but he has put other
ingredients into the brew such as Li, and he has used a thicker cathode of
1/8-inch W rod. 

5. Get a DC power supply up to 5 amps capacity and up to 200 volts. (I am
eager to try beyond 180 volts, but we may need a concrete bunker before we
try that! Eager also to try heavy water!)  You can use a variac AC source
to make DC power-- use a bridge rectifier and capacitor to make DC from
the AC output. Install voltage and current metering devices -- digital
display preferred, data acquisition system if you want to get fancy on the
calorimetry later. I'm sure Scott Little and Mitch Swartz cojuld do this
soon if they put their equipment into this specialized service. This is an
excellent experiment for Barry Merriman too! 

6. Heat up the beaker solution to 80 C either by electrolysis at low DC
input power -- e.g. 20 V, 1.8 to 2 amps -- or with an external hot plate.
(Turn off the hot plate and **remove it** if calorimetry is being used.)
At about 80 deg --sometimes at a lower temperature -- crank up the volts
to 120 to 180. The effect changes appearance as voltage increases. Current
will drop substantially to 0.2 to 0.4 amps as the sheath of steam
surrounds the glowiing plasma-sheathed cathode. Keep an alcohol
thermometer suspended in the solution to measure the temperature. I would
*initially* avoid thermocouples because of the threat of violent
electromagnetic interference in this unknown phenomena.

In calorimetric assessment: Heating credit should be taken for the full
mass of water in the cell from the initial temperature of say 80 C to the
boiling point. However, you may find it difficult to push the average
solution temperature up to 100C (we were only in the low to mid 90s),
because the steam ejected cools the solution so rapidly. The boiling point
is elevated -- McKubre estimated to me in aprivate communciation by only
0.25 deg C for such a solution). This is wonderful, because we WANT steam.
It will be no problem at all to power steam engines with this, if pending
thorough verification of excess energy (This *is* work in progress that
must be confirmed!) we figure out how to get the power ratio high enough,
if it is not there already. The main source of the excess is the amount
boiled off: water vaporized requires about 2260 J/gm. 

Why was this missed by other cold fusion people? Simple: everyone was
looking for a sedate reaction that P&F had started with when the real pay
off was in these higher voltage systems that trigger with metals like
tungsten. W is recommended due to its temperature resistance, but John
Thompson has found that other metals such as Al, Cu, Ni, and Zr also work
-- as far as the *visible* effect. The colors of the emissions are
different -- different hot plasma near the cathode surface. 

Other parameters that need to be explored:

* Higher voltage

* Can energy be extracted from the recycled water after steam condensation
  or if Mills-type hydrinos are formed, do they become "inert"? 

* Other electrolytes -- KCl also works, according to Thompson, try higher
  molarity values

* Other metals

* Pressurized systems -- BE CAREFUL!!!

* Recombine oxygen and hydrogen -- but a very small part of the effect,
  undoubtedly -- to get extra energy in the output

* Try heavy water in various mixtures with light water

* Detect electromagnetic pulse from the device -- if it is there as they
  found in Japan

* Examine the element production and non-natural isotope ratios formed

* SEM imaging for morphology of craters

* Look for radiation -- use film fogging techniques, CR-39 plastic
  detectors, etc. 

This will keep a lot of people busy for a long time. As soon as we pin
down the thermal characteristics a bit more, we and others well be
hell-bent to scale up to larger power-producing units -- with SAFETY FIRST
as our motto. 

**********


This is a typical, very brief O/U investigation run that Ed Wall and I
performed here recently in an uninsulated glass beaker on a metal surface
-- VERY rough calculation, conservative, we think. Among other factors
reducing effect apart from ZERO insulation is the recondensation and
re-boiling of material -- we had a plastic cover on the beaker with holes
drilled in it. A distillation recondensation device would be preferred to
observe water evolved as steam. 

Input: 0.7 to 0.8 amps, avg 0.75 A input at 168 volts = 26,590 J

Duration: 3 minutes, 31 seconds

Solution reduced from 183 ml to 173 ml due to boil-off

Output = 10 x 2260 J/gm H2O + 183 x (about 15 C rise during heating to
full boiling at about 92 C) x 4.18 J/gm C = 34,060

output/input = 1.28

Credit for uninsulated vessel and re-bailing of condnsed liquid could
easily push this to 1.40 and beyond. Much more work needs to be done. 

I hope that other Vortexians will try this -- CAREFULLY, please!

************

Ohmori and Mizuno did calorimatry on the last few mintues BEFORE boiling
and compared the rate of temperature rise to that of a joule heater's
effect on the same volume of electrolyte. That's how they got their 2.6/1.


****** See Infinite Energy #20 for more information in late July.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 29 13:06:11 2002
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:02:42 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
In-Reply-To: <131.7e7dad6.29883edf aol.com>
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Hypercom59 aol.com wrote:

>The following article was posted by Mallove and clearly reports on the
>underwater explosions as plasma forms on the tungsten electrode. Why 
>Mallove and Rothwell question my devices ability to crack water by 
>injection into the plasma is unscientific, unprofessional and shows only 
>scientific jealousy.

This is a misunderstanding. No one questions your ability to crack water by 
injection into plasma. For that matter, you could inject water into a hot 
fire to crack it. The question is: Does your plasma output more energy than 
it takes to create the plasma in the first place? You have not stated 
previously that it does. If it does not, there is no point in cracking the 
water on board a vehicle, as you previously stated you plan to do.

In your latest message you finally say that the plasma is slightly over 
unity, and it is similar to the Ohmori - Mizuno glow discharge experiment. 
That's good, but it is no surprise to us. Be very careful about how you 
measure input electricity with that experiment.

Assuming your present results are correct, they are far below the level 
needed to drive an automobile or other machine.

I do not know why you intend to crack water to extract energy from this 
reaction. Why not simply boil the water? I do not think that you would be 
able to use hydrogen derived from this reaction in a fuel cell for two 
reasons: 1. It is mixed with oxygen. 2. It will have a great many 
impurities from the hot metal. I suspect a steam turbine or TEG would be 
more practical. In any case, at this stage extracting the energy is the 
least of your problems.

You wrote:

"Why was this missed by other cold fusion people? Simple: everyone was 
looking for a sedate reaction that P&F had started with when the real pay 
off was in these higher voltage systems that trigger with metals like
tungsten."

Please remember that Ohmori and Mizuno are "cold fusion people." They too 
criticized other CF researchers for ignoring the high-temperature domain, 
several years ago when they began this line of research.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 29 13:08:21 2002
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:06:59 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: More from Aetherometry
In-Reply-To: <B87B2FCA.10A0%editor infinite-energy.com>
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>Just passing this along from www.aetherometry.com.  The first message
>concerns fundamental modifications of E-M theory and its Tesla coil
>connections.

I find this entire web site incomprehensible. It might as well be written 
in Serbo-Croatian for all I can make out. It seems to be about theories 
which bear no resemblance to the sort of ordinary physics theories I have 
heard of. If anyone here is familiar with the site and can point me to a 
paper describing experiments in plain English, I would be obliged.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 29 13:09:41 2002
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:09:17 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: This is the Russian perspective on earth changes (Fwd)
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Does anyone know anything about this? There have been several reports 
of astronomers sighting Nebru. Has anybody confirmed this from real 
scientists?

>Subject: This is the Russian perspective on earth changes
>
>This is the Russian perspective on earth changes. Hard facts that are  going
>unreported in America.The atmospheres of the planets are  changing.  Dr.
>Dmitriev's work shows that the planets themselves are  changing.  They are
>undergoing changes in their atmospheres.
>
>For  example the Martian atmosphere is getting sizably thicker than it was
>before.  The Mars observer probe in 1997 lost one of its mirrors, which
>caused it to  crash, because the atmosphere was about twice as dense as they
>calculated,  and basically the wind on that little mirror was so high that
>it blew it  right off the device.
>
>Earth's moon is growing an atmosphere
>
>Also,  the moon is growing an atmosphere that's made up of a compound
>Dmitriev  refers to as ''Natrium.'' Dmitriev says that, around the moon,
>there is this  6,000-kilometer-deep layer of Natrium that wasn't there
>before.
>
>And  we're having this kind of change in Earth's atmosphere in the upper
>levels,  where HO gas is forming that wasn't there before; it simply did not
>exist in  the quantity that it does now. It's not related to global warming
>and it's  not related to CFCs or fluorocarbon emissions or any of that
>stuff. It's  just showing up.
>
>Magnetic fields and brightness of the planets are  changing. The planets are
>experiencing sizable changes in their  overall brightness. Venus, for
>example, is showing us marked increases in  its overall brightness. Jupiter
>has gotten to have such a high energetic  charge that there is actually a
>visible tube of ionizing radiation that's  formed between its moon, Io.  You
>can actually see the luminous energy  tube in photographs that have been
>taken more recently..
>
>And the  planets are having a change in their fields. The magnetic fields
>are becoming  stronger. Jupiter's magnetic field has more than doubled.
>Uranus's magnetic  field is changing. Neptune's magnetic field is
>increasing. These planets  are becoming brighter. Their magnetic field
>strength is getting higher. Their  atmospheric qualities are changing.
>
>Uranus and Neptune appear to have had  recent pole shifts. When the Voyager
>2 space probe flew past Uranus  and Neptune, the apparent north and south
>magnetic poles were sizably  offset from where the rotational pole was. In
>one case, it was 50 degrees  off, and in the other case the difference was
>around 40 degrees, both of  which are pretty big changes.
>
>The overall changes could essentially be  broken down into three categories:
>Energy field changes, luminosity  changes, and atmospheric changes.
>
>Overall volcanic activity has  increased 500 percent since 1975 On the
>Earth, we're seeing the changes even  more completely.
>
>For example, Michael Mandeville has done research  that has shown that the
>overall volcanic activity on the Earth since 1875  has increased by roughly
>500 percent. The overall earthquake activity has  increased by 400 percent
>just since 1973.
>
>Natural disasters increased  410 percent between 1963 and 1993
>
>Dr. Dmitriev did a very elaborate  calculation of natural disasters. He
>showed that if you compare the years  1963 through 1993, the overall amount
>of natural disasters of all  different kinds - whether you are talking
>hurricanes, typhoons, mud slides,  tidal waves, you name it - have increased
>by 410 percent.
>
>The Sun's  magnetic field increased by 230 percent since 1901
>
>There's a study by  Dr. Mike Lockwood from Rutherford Appleton National
>Laboratories in  California, who has been investigating the Sun. He has
>discovered that since  1901, the overall magnetic field of the Sun has
>become 230  percent stronger than it was before.
>
>More than just Earth  Changes
>
>So, all in all, what we're seeing is a lot more than just  what they call
>Earth Changes. Some people get into the idea that there is  an interaction
>between the Earth and the Sun that's going on here. Very, very  few people
>are aware of the work that is being done in the Russian National  Academy of
>Sciences in Siberia, specifically in Novosibirsk, where  they are doing this
>research. They've come to the conclusion that the only  possible thing that
>could be causing this energetic change all throughout the  Solar System is
>that we are moving into an area of energy that is different -  that is
>higher.
>
>The glowing plasma at the leading edge of our Solar  System has recently
>increased 1000 percent
>
>Now, check this out. The  Sun itself has a magnetic field, of course, and
>that magnetic field creates  an egg around the Solar System, which is known
>as the heliosphere.  The heliosphere is shaped like a teardrop, with the
>long and thin end of  the drop pointing in the opposite direction from the
>direction that we're  traveling. It's just like a comet, where the tail is
>always pointing away  from the Sun.
>
>The Russians have looked at the leading edge of  this heliosphere, and they
>have observed glowing, excited plasma energy  there. This plasma energy used
>to be 10 astronomical units deep (an  astronomical unit is the distance from
>the Earth to the Sun, 93,000,000  miles). So ten astronomical units
>represents the normal thickness of this  glowing energy that we used to see
>at the front end of the Solar  System.
>
>Today, that glowing plasma has gone to 100 astronomical units  deep.
>Although Dmitriev's paper does not give an exact timeline, we can  assume
>that this increase happened in the same 1963 to 1993 period as the  increase
>he found in natural disasters. Whenever it happened, that's a 1,000  percent
>increase in the overall brightness of the energy at the front end  of the
>Solar System.
>
>And this means that the Solar System itself is  moving into an area where
>the energy is more highly charged. That  higher- charged energy is in turn
>exciting the plasma and causing more of  it to form, so you see more
>luminosity, more brightness. This energy is then  flowing into the Sun,
>which in turn emits the energy and spreads it out  along its equatorial
>plane, which is called the Ecliptic.
>
>This in  turn is saturating interplanetary space, which causes the solar
>emissions to  travel more quickly and charge up the energy on the planets.
>
>And this  is conscious energy that is changing how the planet works, how it
>functions,  and what kind of life it supports. The harmonics of the DNA
>spiral itself are  altering. That's the real, hidden cause of spontaneous
>mass evolutions  in previous epochs of time.
>
>All this is happening all at the same  time, and it's all working up to a
>crescendo where there is going to be a  sudden shift.
>
>In other words, we will get to the point where we are so far into the new
>level of energy that there will be a sudden expansion of  the basic harmonic
>wavelengths that the Sun emits as it radiates energy out  of itself. This
>increase in energy emission will change the basic nature of  all matter in
>the Solar System. The planets are pushed slightly  farther away from the Sun
>and the atoms and molecules that make them up  actually expand in terms of
>their physical size.


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 29 14:22:38 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water. CORRECTION
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I wrote:

>You wrote:
>
>"Why was this missed by other cold fusion people? Simple: everyone was 
>looking for a sedate reaction that P&F had started with when the real pay 
>off was in these higher voltage systems that trigger with metals like 
>tungsten."
>
>Please remember that Ohmori and Mizuno are "cold fusion people." They too 
>criticized other CF researchers for ignoring the high-temperature domain, 
>several years ago when they began this line of research.

Oops. I think it was Gene Mallove who wrote that, not Hypercom59.

It is still unclear to me what Hypercom59 has done, and what he claims. His 
web site does not seem to address the issue of excess energy, as far as I 
can tell. I cannot reach most of it. It says "server busy." He does seem to 
be claiming the device is o-u . . . sort of, indirectly . . . but even 
assuming it is, I still cannot understand why he intends to extract energy 
from it by cracking water.

I see Hypercom59 cites Ken Shoulders. Shoulders refuses to explain how he 
measures input and output energy, so his claims have no merit.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 29 16:01:38 2002
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 18:57:35 EST
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
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In a message dated 1/29/2002 4:19:02 PM Central Standard Time, 
jedrothwell infinite-energy.com writes:

 
 <This is a misunderstanding. No one questions your ability to crack water by 
 <injection into plasma. For that matter, you could inject water into a hot 
 <fire to crack it. 

WRONG - a hot fire will produce steam and the heat level required to "Crack" 
or separate water into it's elemental forms of oxygen and hydrogen is above 
4000 degrees F.

Jed continued,
< The question is: Does your plasma output more energy than 
<it takes to create the plasma in the first place? You have not stated 
< previously that it does. If it does not, there is no point in cracking the 
< water on board a vehicle, as you previously stated you plan to do.
 <In your latest message you finally say that the plasma is slightly over 
 <unity, and it is similar to the Ohmori - Mizuno glow discharge experiment. 
 <That's good, but it is no surprise to us. Be very careful about how you 
 <measure input electricity with that experiment.

Jed, the point is if strictly near unity results are possible with a plasma, 
HOW DO I Account for all the extra power that is provided by the motor 
producing this same plasma.  The motor must produce plasma in order to run, 
but it also produces high efficiency mechanical power and the plasma is free 
to CRACK water that will in turn run a combustion engine - by Burning the 
hydrogen the plasma releases.
 
< Assuming your present results are correct, they are far below the level 
< needed to drive an automobile or other machine.

The motor powers the car and so does the hydrogen
 
< I do not know why you intend to crack water to extract energy from this 
< reaction. Why not simply boil the water? 

What? Because it can be done for free and I mean true overunity - FREE. Boil 
water - what are you talking about? Do you have any idea what Mallove said in 
that article. Mallove was describing the effects of plasma reacting with the 
water, even if Eugene did not know the meaning of what he saw - he was not 
just "boiling water," he was "CRACKING" it and his explosions were the 
recombining of Hydrogen and Oxygen Underwater.......

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 29 16:05:45 2002
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:54:14 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Intel QX3 scope
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Well, following Bill B's message last week, I couldn't resist the temptation to
get one of these discounted toy computer microscopes for $29. Here's a
preliminary report, if anyone is interested.

Even though this item is just a science "toy" I guess this post is not exactly
off-topic because it does has some potential uses to the experimenter, besides
being a great gift for the curious child, when you get tired of playing with it.
After all, it is a microscope with  10x, 60x and 200x settings and has built-in
up and down lighting so it can be used by adults for a few serious purposes -
like, in the handheld mode as a "magnifying glass on steroids" and if you've
ever had a problem reading the specs off of small electronic components - or if
you can't tell whether your soldering has run over onto that next line, it could
be useful -because a simple magnifying glass often won't do the job.

You can capture images to send over the net and can even make movies of captured
images and modify them with a built-in paint program but there are some problems
with the software - and that is likely why the product has been discounted. I
just hope for the sake of kids of the future that Intel doesn't drop the idea -
this thing is just a tad short of being an extremely cool item.

But the present software is clunky and doesn't seem to work nearly as well as
the hardware. I suspect that Intel got a lot of returns from parents who weren't
computer literate enough to hang in there - for one thing, it has a help file,
but that appears to be nonfunctional plus the program takes over the computer,
so forget trying to integrate it with other programs.

I'm going to tinker around with it some more to see if Photoshop has any plugins
that will capture the feed but that's not likely.

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 29 16:15:15 2002
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Subject: RE: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
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*******Hypercom writes:
Jed, the point is if strictly near unity results are possible with a plasma,
HOW DO I Account for all the extra power that is provided by the motor
producing this same plasma.  The motor must produce plasma in order to run,
but it also produces high efficiency mechanical power and the plasma is free
to CRACK water that will in turn run a combustion engine - by Burning the
hydrogen the plasma releases.
*******

Perhaps you could tell us how you measured input power in
the "cracking" experiment? That would make for a healthy start...

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 29 17:27:48 2002
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Subject: RE: Intel QX3 scope
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 20:35:08 -0500
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Yo! Linux Schmucks!!!!

Why aren't you answering poor Jones?

Here, this guy can set you up with CPIA drivers. You'll
have to rebuild the kernel ( oh boy, what fun ) but hey
it exists. Haven't seen a MS version yet.

K.

Oh yeah, the link.

http://mailman.risc.uni-linz.ac.at/pipermail/cpia/2000-April/000680.html



-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 6:54 PM
To: vortex
Subject: Intel QX3 scope


Well, following Bill B's message last week, I couldn't resist the temptation
to
get one of these discounted toy computer microscopes for $29. Here's a
preliminary report, if anyone is interested.

Even though this item is just a science "toy" I guess this post is not
exactly
off-topic because it does has some potential uses to the experimenter,
besides
being a great gift for the curious child, when you get tired of playing with
it.
After all, it is a microscope with  10x, 60x and 200x settings and has
built-in
up and down lighting so it can be used by adults for a few serious
purposes -
like, in the handheld mode as a "magnifying glass on steroids" and if you've
ever had a problem reading the specs off of small electronic components - or
if
you can't tell whether your soldering has run over onto that next line, it
could
be useful -because a simple magnifying glass often won't do the job.

You can capture images to send over the net and can even make movies of
captured
images and modify them with a built-in paint program but there are some
problems
with the software - and that is likely why the product has been discounted.
I
just hope for the sake of kids of the future that Intel doesn't drop the
idea -
this thing is just a tad short of being an extremely cool item.

But the present software is clunky and doesn't seem to work nearly as well
as
the hardware. I suspect that Intel got a lot of returns from parents who
weren't
computer literate enough to hang in there - for one thing, it has a help
file,
but that appears to be nonfunctional plus the program takes over the
computer,
so forget trying to integrate it with other programs.

I'm going to tinker around with it some more to see if Photoshop has any
plugins
that will capture the feed but that's not likely.

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jan 29 19:21:28 2002
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From: Hypercom59 aol.com
Message-ID: <12d.b95f9f0.2988bfdb aol.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 22:17:47 EST
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water. CORRECTION
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In a message dated 1/29/02 5:25:34 PM Central Standard Time, 
jedrothwell infinite-energy.com writes:

< I still cannot understand why he intends to extract energy 
 from it by cracking water. >

Cracking water to release the hydrogen usually takes energy to do it, yet my 
patent provides the means to "USE" the plasma without the cost of generating 
it, because the plasma "IS" the driving force of the motor.  Simply by adding 
water to the plasma, hydrogen is released and the combined total of "Plasma 
Work" and "Mechanical Work" is way over 100%.  Time after time, repeatable 
all the time - never fail, as long as the plasma is produced the motor will 
turn and the water will burn producing OVERUNITY.

Maybe Jed still can't understand why a free power source should be used and 
why it is interesting that the sum of the parts is greater than the total 
power used - I would call that MOST INTERESTING 

To access the plasma is like tapping the life blood of the universe.  And 
while the motor runs I have gained access to the Plasma Pulses and can use it 
the highly charged Plasma - at no extra charge.

http://members.aol.com/hypercom59/index.html

No personal email please - power brokers only.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 30 06:55:03 2002
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
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At 1:07 PM 1/29/2, Hypercom59 aol.com wrote:
[snip]
>This is a typical, very brief O/U investigation run that Ed Wall and I
>performed here recently in an uninsulated glass beaker on a metal surface
>-- VERY rough calculation, conservative, we think. Among other factors
>reducing effect apart from ZERO insulation is the recondensation and
>re-boiling of material -- we had a plastic cover on the beaker with holes
>drilled in it. A distillation recondensation device would be preferred to
>observe water evolved as steam.
>
>Input: 0.7 to 0.8 amps, avg 0.75 A input at 168 volts = 26,590 J
>
>Duration: 3 minutes, 31 seconds
>
>Solution reduced from 183 ml to 173 ml due to boil-off
>
>Output = 10 x 2260 J/gm H2O + 183 x (about 15 C rise during heating to
>full boiling at about 92 C) x 4.18 J/gm C = 34,060
>
>output/input = 1.28
>
>Credit for uninsulated vessel and re-bailing of condnsed liquid could
>easily push this to 1.40 and beyond. Much more work needs to be done.
>
>I hope that other Vortexians will try this -- CAREFULLY, please!
[snip]

In years past I have experimented with numerous forms of high voltage
electrolysis, using various forms of electrolytes, electrodes, and current
waveforms, with voltages exceeding 700 V.  I can tell you from this
experience that the above procedure has some major flaws.

One of the main flaws in procedure is failing to do a full energy balance,
especially failing to determine the enthalpy of the oxidized anode.  This
requires weighing the electrodes before and after and then estimating the
heat released by the oxidation of the electrode metals.  Obtaining a good
number requires fairly long run times, 15 minutes or more being sufficient
for a rough estimate, depending on the elecrode consumption rate.

I have found that weighing the electrolyte produces far more accurate
results than estimating or measuring fluid volume.  Further, weighing can
be employed as the experiment progresses, not just at the beginning and
end, even though the electrolytic cell may be enclosed and hot.  This can
be useful for examining changes in the heat evolution over time, as a
function of electrode condition.  Condensing the steam might also be useful
for that, but I obtained good energy balances without doing so.

Another problem that can cause a large error in the energy balance is
failure to obtain good solid power measurements that include the power in
brief spikes.   Simply measuring current and assuming the voltage
regulation is solid and the current is uniform DC is not sufficient.  Even
if you are using a well regulated DC power supply, imposing a large
inductance between the supply and the electrolytic cell is a very useful
method to isolate the power supply from the characteristic large
sub-microsecond current spikes that occur during high voltage electrolysis
and which cause power supply ammeters to read low.

If ordinary rectified DC (pulsed DC coming from a bridge or diode) or AC is
used, you will find the power factor changes dramatically over the course
of the experiment.  My experience has been that this is largely due to
films forming on the cathode and/or anode and also due to the steam sheath.
The slant of an x-y oscilloscope plot of i vs V can be used to estimate
the degree of film formation and the capacitance of the film.   It is also
true that "anode spots" develop, and these seem to have their own
individual mechanics and evolutions that are in part dependant upon the
nature of the films deposited, their insulating qualities, and the current
characteristics.  The current density in these spots is very high and much
electrode consumption appears to happen at these sites.

One method I found useful, that increases the confirmed caloric output and
greatly increases the precision of the energy balance, is thoroughly
insulating the reaction vessel with a 2" thick foam compartment having a
lid with a small hole at the top to eject steam and accept an electrode
assembly, and also preheating the water to boiling (in a microwave) just
prior to the experiment. I made the insulating box height slightly less
than the height of the beaker so as to be able to use tongs to place the
beaker in the insulated box, and made a depression in the very thick box
lid so it would contain and seal off the electrolytic chamber.

I have found that stirring helps prevent the formation of water droplets,
as opposed to steam, and also makes heat transfer more uniform througout
the system. The localized heating and violent steam formation at small
spots creates accoustic effects and tends to cause ejection of water
droplets as opposed to pure steam.  Including a condensation surface to
catch water droplets is useful, and I think your plasic cover serves that
end, but of course such a surface must be kept within the insulating
jacket.  Continuing to run the experiment without electrolysis current,
while measuring the temperature decline curve and inside-outside
differential over time, provides a means to fairly accurately esimate the
thermal constant of the cell.  Stiring also makes this procedure more
accurate.  To avoid significant changes in the thermal constant of the cell
during the experiment, however, the percent of electrolyte boiled off must
be kept low.

There are, of course, lots of other considerations and refinements
available in the calorimetry.

As with various "ou" experiments I have done in the past, my experience has
been with high voltage electrolysis that the energy balance discrepancy
disappears in proportion to the refinements employed in the measurements.
The longer you work on it the more the excess enthalpy disappears.  When
you finally obtain an energy balance to less than 3 percent you have the
satisfaction of having learned a lot about calorimetry, but also the severe
disappointment of watching the magic disappear before your eyes.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 30 10:47:11 2002
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 13:29:45 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
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Hypercom59 aol.com wrote:

>The motor powers the car and so does the hydrogen
>
>< I do not know why you intend to crack water to extract energy from this
>< reaction. Why not simply boil the water?
>
>What? Because it can be done for free and I mean true overunity - FREE.

In that case, boiling could also be done for free. It would be a lot safer 
and easier, I expect. Any free hydrogen and oxygen should be recombined 
immediately to add to the heat. That will happen anyway. You cannot prevent 
a mix of hydrogen and oxygen from recombining in the presence of a hot 
cathode or plasma.


>Boil water - what are you talking about? Do you have any idea what Mallove 
>said in that article.

Yes, I do, since I observed the experiments in question and supplied much 
of the raw data, photos, equipment descriptions and so on.


>  Mallove was describing the effects of plasma reacting with the
>water, even if Eugene did not know the meaning of what he saw - he was not 
>just "boiling water," he was "CRACKING" it and his explosions were the 
>recombining of Hydrogen and Oxygen Underwater.......

I doubt it. The pyrometer did not show temperatures high enough for 
significant cracking. In any case, if this did happen, it is difficult to 
envision how you could exploit it by drawing off the free gas before it 
recombines, or how you could separate the hydrogen and oxygen for a fuel 
cell, or what the point of the exercise would be. Why not use an ordinary 
heat engine instead?

No doubt you have your reasons for this approach, and I will not argue the 
point further. However, I would suggest that any method of exploiting the 
heat -- as conventional steam or as free hydrogen and oxygen gas -- will be 
an engineering project of considerable complexity. It would be better to 
establish that there is excess energy first, and to convince many other 
people of that fact. You can do this with conventional calorimetry, as 
Mizuno and others have done. There is no need to make a motor at this 
stage. If your claims are correct, expert engineers will select the best 
means of extracting heat, either steam, a TEC, MHD, free H and O gas or 
some other method well suited to the applications they deal with.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 30 10:49:08 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>One of the main flaws in procedure is failing to do a full energy balance,
>especially failing to determine the enthalpy of the oxidized anode.

Since this would add to the excess heat, I would not worry about it much. I 
only fear accidentally increasing the excess, not overlooking some fraction 
of it.


>This requires weighing the electrodes before and after and then estimating 
>the heat released by the oxidation of the electrode metals.

Also examining the fragments of electrode to determine whether they were 
oxidized or not. Mizuno says they are mechanically fractured and broken 
into small shards. he does not say they are oxidized.



>Obtaining a good number requires fairly long run times, 15 minutes or more 
>being sufficient for a rough estimate, depending on the elecrode 
>consumption rate.

Unfortunately, many cathodes only last 10 or 15 minutes.


>I have found that weighing the electrolyte produces far more accurate
>results than estimating or measuring fluid volume.  Further, weighing can
>be employed as the experiment progresses, not just at the beginning and
>end, even though the electrolytic cell may be enclosed and hot.

Ohmori does this, putting his cell on a precision digital weight scale. 
however, the reaction is so violent it causes the cell to vibrate, 
disturbing the weight scale. The results can only be read to the nearest 
gram while the reaction occurs.


>Another problem that can cause a large error in the energy balance is 
>failure to obtain good solid power measurements that include the power in 
>brief spikes.

Mizuno uses an expensive Yokogawa PZ4000 for this. The Yokogawa sales 
engineers said this would be the best model for this purpose. Actually, 
though, it agrees closely with the cheaper meters, so perhaps the spikes 
cannot make as much difference as one might think.


>    Simply measuring current and assuming the voltage
>regulation is solid and the current is uniform DC is not sufficient.

Actually the answer you get from that method is remarkably close to the 
Yokogawa number, much to the surprise of Mizuno and me. Ohmori was not 
surprised.


>Continuing to run the experiment without electrolysis current,
>while measuring the temperature decline curve and inside-outside
>differential over time, provides a means to fairly accurately esimate the
>thermal constant of the cell.  Stiring also makes this procedure more
>accurate.

Mizuno and Ohmori always record the cooling curve. Mizuno always stirs, but 
Ohmori does not.


>As with various "ou" experiments I have done in the past, my experience 
>has been with high voltage electrolysis that the energy balance 
>discrepancy disappears in proportion to the refinements employed in the 
>measurements. The longer you work on it the more the excess enthalpy 
>disappears.

Mizuno worked on it for two years, in consultation with electrical 
engineering department at the University and with a major corporations that 
replicated his results and then provided him with several upgraded 
instruments. He has used increasingly better instruments, but the excess 
has not decreased.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 30 10:51:14 2002
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
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>
>
>What? Because it can be done for free and I mean true overunity - FREE. Boil
>water - what are you talking about? Do you have any idea what Mallove said in
>that article. Mallove was describing the effects of plasma reacting with the
>water, even if Eugene did not know the meaning of what he saw - he was not
>just "boiling water," he was "CRACKING" it and his explosions were the
>recombining of Hydrogen and Oxygen Underwater.......

My understanding of Hypercon's claims is that the motor powers itself 
and provides surplus power too. I don't know how the Brown's Gas 
would work for powering an internal combustion engine, I think that 
it would be better used in a fuel cell. If true, this would allow 
Chris to close the loop, and claim Eric's Prize, which would make me 
smile.

Apparently the magnetic field produced by the spinning rotor collects 
the energy produced by the hydrogen fusion. As I have noted before, 
as I understand it there only a tiny percentage of the energy that 
should result from the fusion is expressed as heat, and nobody could 
explain were this energy was going, except to say that it was going 
off as neutrinos. This claim, if true, represents a major 
breakthrough in C F technology.

I'm more fascinated by his observations of the motor getting cold. 
This phenomena also happens in coils held near the rotor or connected 
to it.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 30 10:51:48 2002
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:51:17 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: The new Russian Electret
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Does any body know anything about this substance?

>A NEW ENERGY SOURCE
>
>Short information about a discovery made by Valerian M.
>Sobolev and his team, Volograd, Russia
>
>Review prepared by Tatiana O. Philimonova
>
>A sensational discovery was made in Volograd during the
>experiments with the river sand. Dr. Sobolev stated that
>during the melting process of common quartz sand they
>have got a new substance.

Is river sand necessary, or will any sand work?

>This substance is several
>times stronger than the glass and it can produce energy.

Hum, I wonder what he means by several times stronger than glass? 
Also how does it produce this energy?

>They used so called “exhausting process”. Common river


What is this exhausting process? Exposing it to a strong electrical 
charge while it is molten?

>
>sand was an initial substance for this process and the
>product is a monolith multiple-unit chemical compound
>having the type of a quartz glass. These chemical
>compounds cannot be explained by common chemical
>laws.

Hum, i thought that glass was well understood.

>
>The substance contains ordered structures, which radiate
>a magnetic current changing in time.


What is a magnetic current, and why should it change in time?

>  The materials
>containing magnetic charge are the new source of energy,
>which was unknown before. The special selective
>electrochemical process was discovered. This allows
>producing the new class of materials from a number of
>oxides melts.

Hum, what kind of oxides?

>  As a result of such processing the electrons
>from oxide melts come off the outer orbits or get removed,

This sounds to me like charging a capacitor.

>
>that provides the formation of the unusual structures of
>absolutely new qualities. Also Sobolev’s team discovered
>the “magnetic charge”. Several scientists theoretically
>forecasted this discovery earlier (1931, Paul Dirac). It was
>believed it could be a magnetic monopole

Dirac predicted it eh, that's heavy. Otto Schmitt explained the 
magnetic monopole as the combination of two similar poles placed side 
by side. I've never understood why this should qualify as a monopole, 
since there would be an opposite pole too.

>  – some
>magnetic particle with a micro-charge. The materials
>(entire environment) having the magnetic charge are the
>new energy source. Radiating the magnetic flux, they create
>the electromotive force in conductors, to be more precise –
>in the conductive circuit. Such materials together with those
>circuits make up the new “physical current source”.
>Sobolev’s team called this current source in contrary to the
>chemically received current source. The power of the
>physical current is replenished owing to the power of the
>natural force fields of the Earth. Such a source can be
>manufactured in the form of the autonomous device for the
>household or industrial needs, producing free electric
>power.

I suppose that if the magnetic field which changes is placed in the 
vicinity of a coil of wire, an electrical current will result.

>
>The discivered phenomenon does not break the law of
>energy conservation. This energy is not taken from
>“nowhere” and does not go “nowhere” either. It only
>changes its form and many scientists are developing this
>approach. In the paper “Application of potential field to
>create energy” by Alexander V. Frolev, published by Institute
>for New energy, USA, 1994, some practical applications of
>this theory were considered. Also Dr. Sonolev claim that the
>new substance has a transitional, i.e. the non-standard
>magnetic field. There is some analogy between this notion
>and longitudinal magnetic field, and you can read more
>about this aspect of magnetism in Dr. Nikolaev’s article
>(this issue of New Energy Technologies).
>
>New Energy Technologies Issue #2 September – October
>page 22


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 30 10:53:22 2002
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:51:17 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: More from Aetherometry
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>Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
>
>>Just passing this along from www.aetherometry.com.  The first message
>>concerns fundamental modifications of E-M theory and its Tesla coil
>>connections.
>
>I find this entire web site incomprehensible. It might as well be 
>written in Serbo-Croatian for all I can make out. It seems to be 
>about theories which bear no resemblance to the sort of ordinary 
>physics theories I have heard of. If anyone here is familiar with 
>the site and can point me to a paper describing experiments in plain 
>English, I would be obliged.
>
>- Jed

It will no doubt interest you to know that neither Hal Puthoff or I 
can make any sense out of it either. Other than their pointing out 
the temperature anomaly that occurs over the top of a orgone 
collector. I'm still trying to figure out what Neiche has to do will 
all this. I understood that someone had tested the Correa's PAGD and 
determined that it was producing O U energy, does anyone know 
anything about that?

-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 30 12:20:50 2002
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Subject: Re: More from Aetherometry
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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On 1/30/02 10:51 AM, "thomas malloy" <temalloy metro.lakes.com> wrote:

> It will no doubt interest you to know that neither Hal Puthoff or I
> can make any sense out of it either. Other than their pointing out
> the temperature anomaly that occurs over the top of a orgone
> collector. I'm still trying to figure out what Neiche has to do will
> all this. I understood that someone had tested the Correa's PAGD and
> determined that it was producing O U energy, does anyone know
> anything about that?


As far as I know, neither you nor Hal Puthoff have downloaded any of the
comprehensive EXPERIMENTAL and theoretically linked modules of the Correas
-- the ones that have nominal charges for downloading. Have you?  Perhaps
that is why you don't understand any of it. You haven't read it.  There are
compendious electrical and thermal experiments that appear to have have no
other explanation other than an aether as characterized by the Correas.

As far as the PAGD device goes, it can run a 500 watt draw motor right now,
with only 50 watts DC input. See my  testimonial to that effect.  Previous
problems of transduction to O/U motor operation have been solved.  Closing
that loop is a foregone conclusion -- engineering the generator only. The
electrical aether motors run off orgone accumulators are self-sustaining
already at the low wattage level. I have looked inside the electronics box
on my last visit -- absolutely no funny business inside, but that is only my
inspection and my word.  Then there are the associated physical effects
through human bodies that can't possibly be faked.

Per Jed's public request on this forum, as soon as I get some clear time
(hah!)_ I'll post some descriptions of the body of the Correa work, in
perhaps more understandable terms, to help those not familiar with the
Correa work.   These comments will come in stages -- not all at once.

These are not easy monographs. It is very radical physics, but it is ALL
based on experiment, not someone's derivation of a derivation of a
derivation on the foundation of relativity or QM, which describes most of
what passes for physics today.

For now, issue #41 of IE and the following issue #42 (out in late March),
describe a commercial Stirling motor run by the heat developed from the
aether INSIDE a modified orgone accumulator.  See their module AS2-05  "The
Thermal Anomaly in ORACS and the Reich-Einstein Experiment: Implications for
Blackbody Theory," which proves that the heat (developed *inside* the
Faraday cage) is of aether origin.  The motor demonstration merely
emphasizes the point that a practical application is possible. There are
adequate controls described in those papers, but the best "controls" are as
given in AS2-05.  These Stirling/Hybrid ORAC papers are now posted also on
the Correa site.

The monographs are quite clear about numerous other experiments that defy
conventional explanation -- such as with Telsa coils. Yes, theory  --
difficult theory -- is developed in parallel. One might wish to read the
experiments and ignore the theory for now, then go back and study the theory
later. There are many ways to approach this. The Correa effort is
superlative scientific work, ready made for confirmation by others who care
to read it.

Gene Mallove
  www.infinite-energy.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 30 12:58:44 2002
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thomas malloy wrote:

<snip>

> > If true, this would allow
> Chris to close the loop, and claim Eric's Prize, which would make me
> smile.

<snip>

Who is Eric and what is his prize? Is this a prize for an OU device running in a
closed loop?

Regards,
Jon


--
Obstacles are the things that a person sees when he takes
his eyes off the goal.      - E. Joseph Cossman-


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 30 12:59:32 2002
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Subject: Re: More from Aetherometry
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>As far as I know, neither you nor Hal Puthoff have downloaded any of the 
>comprehensive EXPERIMENTAL and theoretically linked modules of the Correas 
>-- the ones that have nominal charges for downloading. Have you?  Perhaps 
>that is why you don't understand any of it. You haven't read it.

This begs the question. There is a huge amount of free, immediately 
accessible material on the Web site, but several people have commented that 
it is incomprehensible. If the authors have written comprehensive 
experimental papers using understandable scientific terminology, they 
should post portions of these papers (preferably the Abstracts) and put 
them on the free portions of web site. This may entice people to buy the 
other papers that offered at a nominal price.

In particular, people have complained that Correa has apparently coined 
nonstandard terminology to describe physical phenomena (or alleged 
phenomena). Perhaps these phenomena are not described anywhere in ordinary 
literature, so there are no normal terms for them. In that case, Correa 
should include an on-line glossary.

The purpose of a web site or publication is to communicate with the public. 
This site fails to communicate, even to an audience of experts well versed 
in scientific terminology and concepts, therefore it should be revised. 
Correa is not the only scientist who does a poor job communicating. It 
would be to his advantage if someone friendly with him (such as Gene) were 
to inform him of the problem.


>These are not easy monographs. It is very radical physics, but it is ALL
>based on experiment, not someone's derivation of a derivation of a
>derivation on the foundation of relativity or QM,

Insofar as the language itself is unnecessarily obscure, the author is to 
blame for that. I have read historical papers written by people like 
Einstein, von Neumann and Shannon introducing radical new ideas in physics 
and computation. Naturally, I had the advantage of knowing the concepts 
already -- stored program computers were old hat by the time I read von 
Neumann. However, the language itself was not challenging. See, for example:

"A Mathematical Theory of Communication"

http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/ms/what/shannonday/shannon1948.pdf

- Jed

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Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
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From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>

> As with various "ou" experiments I have done in the past, my
experience has
> been with high voltage electrolysis that the energy balance
discrepancy
> disappears in proportion to the refinements employed in the
measurements.
> The longer you work on it the more the excess enthalpy
disappears.  When
> you finally obtain an energy balance to less than 3 percent
you have the
> satisfaction of having learned a lot about calorimetry, but
also the severe
> disappointment of watching the magic disappear before your
eyes.

Hi Horace,

Thanks for the fine post.

It's too bad that more of us don't fess up and share very
relevant information like this - so as at least to shorten the
learning process for others. Even the most experienced
researchers have been known to make gigantic blunders, as was
the case recently with Bearden's MEG. He was warned by many of
us on this forum that his technique and equipment was not
accurate for those circumstances yet he failed realize, much
less to insist upon the simple expedient of taking power
readings *ONLY* with a dedicated power analyzer. Naudin, despite
his interesting and voluminous fine experiments, is also a big
offender when it comes to taking accurate power readings. He has
kicked people off his forum for bringing this up.

Measuring pulsed power is a far more difficult undertaking than
many OU researchers ever imagine until they get hold of a Power
Analyzer. With highly spiked pulses, your normally accurate DMM
might be off - not by just a few percent but a few hundred
percent !!!

Matter of fact, I have put much of the following power
measurement information on vortex several time over the past
years, but it never hurts to hammer it in.

As well-known electronics commentator Don Lancaster is fond of
saying, YOU CANNOT MEASURE POWER WITH A MULTIMEYER AND A REGULAR
O'SCOPE.

It should be doubly certain that you CANNOT MEASURE POWER
ACCURATELY WITH  MULTIMEYERS ALONE,  yet over and over we see
people trying to get by with this. The following contains more
info taken from Don Lancaster and other web sources.

Even using a top notch Fluke voltmeter/DMM (true RMS) to measure
the current and voltage won't do the trick in most OU
experiments because you loose the timing information between the
voltage and current, which is all important for this type of
measurements. And even some of the top of the line Fluke scopes
"round off" highly spiked pulses.

It is interesting to note that with a constant voltage supply
driving a load that takes current in sharp spikes, the true
power delivered to the load is determined by the voltage
multiplied by the AVERAGE current....not the RMS current.  For
example, consider a simple "spiky" current waveform consisting
of a 10% duty-cycle square wave.  The current is 10 amps for 1
second and then 0 amps for 9 seconds...then the cycle repeats.
Thus the average current is 1 amp (10/10)....but the RMS current
is 3.16 amps (root(100/10))!  The voltage at the peak of the
square wave is, say, 10 volts.  During the current "spike" the
power is 100 watts and, since that is on for only 10% of the
time, the average power in this case is 10 watts.  That result
can be obtained only by multiplying the voltage by the average
current.  If you multiply the voltage by the RMS current, you
get 31.6 watts. You are off by 300 percent!! This is in effect
was part of Bearden's undoing with his MEG.

The Power Analyzers are expensive tools for power measurement.
Good ones such the Clarke-Hess 2330 normally achieve wonderful
performance until the frequencies get too high/irregular and/or
the pulses get too steeply spiked.  It employs a DSP to perform
the high-speed multiplications. A cheaper solution can involve
making your own DSP power measurement tool. Even normal
watt-hour meters like many EEs use are limited in bandwidth and
may not be completely accurate, depending on waveform slopes.
The Clarke-Hess and Valhalla are sometimes available on eBay for
a reasonable price but be sure they are calibrated, and in the
case of Clarke-Hess you need all three modules.

It is possible but more difficult to work directly from a two
channel digital oscilloscope, if your digital scope gives a
multiply function. If sampled fast enough, two waveforms
multiplied together as they are happening would give you the
power waveform, and its area over a repeating cycle would give
you the energy, which is what you are after.  But many digital
scopes, even high priced ones take too many shortcuts and sample
too infrequently. To restate it differently, without a dedicated
power analyzer the only way to compute your power is to use a
very fast two-channel digital oscilloscope with multiply
function or a two channel A/D, one for the current into the
system and the other for the voltage driving the current. A
small non inductive resistor in the input lead will give you a
voltage proportional to the current flowing but the data must be
collected many thousands of times per second in many
circumstances. After you collect the data, multiply the current
times the voltage at each time point to get the instantaneous
power, and then sum this for the duration of the experiment to
compute the energy used. It can be a difficult undertaking
without a dedicated power analyzer.

"Power Factor" :The term "Power Factor" is primarily useful ONLY
when you are talking about sine waves. You have to be very
careful defining it when your talking about different (i.e.
spiky) waveforms. AND ALMOST ALL OU EXPERIMENTS INVOLVE UNUSUAL
WAVEFORMS. The instantaneous power P(t) = V(t) * I(t) can be
either positive or negative at any moment in time. Energy used
is given by the integral of P(t) over the duration (say 0 to T)
of the test you are running. If the waveform of the current I(t)
and the voltage V(t) is periodic, the energy use is also
periodic, and you can define an average power by dividing the
energy in one period by its duration.

With periodic voltages and currents such as sinewaves, if there
are reactive elements in the circuit, inductors and/or
capacitors, then energy is stored in these devices during part
of a periodic cycle, and recovered during the other part of the
cycle. This involves negative instantaneous power during the
recovery portion. Power factor can then be defined as the ratio
of the average power divided by the product ( peak(I(t)) *
peak(V(t)) * 1/2 ) . The factor of 1/2 comes in from the fact
that for sinewaves the average power is 1/2 the peak power. A
different Power factor can be defined if you use for the
denominator the product of RMS I(t) times RMS V(t), which is
probably easier to measure if you don't have a oscilloscope. For
sinewaves the two measures are the same. Power factor is mostly
useful for Electric Utilities, so they can charge more, since
the surging reactive power increases line loss as they deliver
power to you.

The problem you are constantly facing with plasmas and high
frequencies is that the arcs/spikes are unstable, and change
with time fairly quickly. You have to run the A/D at a sample
rate fast enough to get at least several samples during the
changes, and you should have an input low pass filter on the A/D
analog input, with a cutoff frequency equal to half the sampling
frequency. The trick is to use a sampling frequency that is at
least twice the highest frequency present in the signal.  A
problem arises where the transients could well be in the
pico-second range, so you won't succeed in finding anything on
the market that could possibly sample fast enough - don't even
bother trying. *But if the spikes themselves are completely
random, you could sample at regular intervals and get good
results over time.* There is nothing inherently wrong with
sampling, even sampling of noise. However, if the noise is
generated by a plasma arc, for instance, with high amplitude
spikes, then any sampling process might give misleading results
unless both randomness and time interval are optimized. You also
have to use a high enough bandwidth oscilloscope and BOTTOM
LINE -would always be better off with a dedicated power
analyzer.

I suspect there is more than one of us interested in being able
to cheaply measure power input across a wide range of
parameters, and financially desperate enough to try to make one.
There are a lot of good, relatively cheap A/D's on the market,
by Linear, Texas Instruments, or Burr-Brown, and a low pass
filter is easily built up using an op-amp, which will also set
the gain for you to drive the A/D in its input voltage range.
I've been doing a little research on this issue.  Both Analog
Devices and Burr Brown make a "precision 4-quadrant multiplier"
that is advertised to achieve 0.25% accuracy with a 1MHz
bandwidth. It is possible to use a conventional analog
oscilloscope first to observe the arc behavior, then determine
what frequency sampling you need.

BTW, "four quadrant multiplier" is only one multiplier.
4-quadrant refers to the fact that the device can multiply I & V
signals in all 4 quadrants (i.e. +I*+V=+P,
+I*-V=-P, -I*+V=-P, -I*-V=+P)...a necessary capability for
proper handling of reactive power computation.  A two channel
device would be ok for  power in vs. power out for some devices.
Could just ignore the other two multipliers, or apply them to a
specialized use.

For those with bigger budgets, here is some more stuff extracted
from the Clarke-Hess lit. on the 2330. The Model 2330 is a
precision, high accuracy, auto-ranging instrument which
simultaneously measures and displays true RMS voltage, true RMS
current and true mean square power over a frequency range from
dc to more than 600kHz.... Full scale current and voltage inputs
may have crest factors up to three while smaller inputs may have
even higher crest factors. Sinusoidal inputs with RMS values of
twice the nominal Full Scale value may be measured with no loss
in accuracy......The voltage and current inputs of the Model
2330 are simultaneously sampled (with 16 bit resolution),
converted to digital form, and transmitted via optical links to
the main chassis. This allows both the current and voltage
inputs to be completely isolated from each other and from the
main chassis.

>From Clarke-Hess: "The basic operation of the Sampling V-A-W
Meter is based on the concept that when a signal proportional to
current and a signal proportional to voltage are periodically
sampled simultaneously and the samples are multiplied together
and placed through a (digital) low-pass filter, a signal
proportional to average power is obtained."

"The DSP receives the serial digital sample data from both the
current and voltage box and converts them into a digital current
sample and a digital voltage sample.  It multiplies the current
sample by the voltage sample, squares the current sample,
squares the voltage sample and filters each of these combined
signals in a digital, three stage, low pass filter.  The filters
provide at their respective outputs the average power, the mean
of the squared current and the mean of the squared voltage.
Each of these filters is an infinite impulse response (IIR)
filter with three identical stages each having a bandwidth of
approximately 0.4 Hz.  The filter outputs, along with the
current and voltage samples are transferred to the
Microprocessor following each sampling pulse via an Input/Output
interface.  The Microprocessor extracts the square root of the
mean of the squared current and the square root of the mean of
the squared voltage to obtain the RMS current and the RMS
voltage."

It takes approximately 15 harmonics of a simple square wave to
effectively reconstruct an original signal so it is easy to see
that even more sinusoidal components are required of a spike or
impulse, determined by its highest frequency component.  Indeed,
maybe the problem with finding OU - inasmuch as it derives from
ZPE, if you want to get philosophical about it, is that the
prototypical impulse has infinite significant frequency
components and like many QM events can only be measured in
statistical terms... in fact you could even say it cannot exist
in our reality. So here is a very circular (and fallacious)
argument against ZPE: it cannot be bandwidth limited so it can't
exist in our 4D world as all real signals in our reality frame
are bandwidth limited.

Including this one - Over and Out!

Jones







From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 30 13:20:47 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 16:28:24 -0500
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Hi Jon.

He's referring to Eric Krieg, noted internet skeptic,
who offers some small sum of money in exchange for
the "holy grail" (smile). It's a clever bet on his
part but doubtful he'd ever get a serious contender.

Eric runs an egroup called free energy which I'd suggest
joining. It's regular updates from Eric
on the seamy underbelly of this strange hobby we
do. He's very literal though, so expect more gumshoe
than analysis or experiment.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Flickinger [mailto:jonfli informatics.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 3:53 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.


thomas malloy wrote:

<snip>

> > If true, this would allow
> Chris to close the loop, and claim Eric's Prize, which would make me
> smile.

<snip>

Who is Eric and what is his prize? Is this a prize for an OU device running
in a
closed loop?

Regards,
Jon


--
Obstacles are the things that a person sees when he takes
his eyes off the goal.      - E. Joseph Cossman-



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 30 13:24:04 2002
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:23:03 -0900
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
Resent-Message-ID: <"-f1Sq.0.dc3.tE6My" mx2>
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If you want to skip the detail - just jump to the bottom line.  8^)


At 1:45 PM 1/30/2, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>>One of the main flaws in procedure is failing to do a full energy balance,
>>especially failing to determine the enthalpy of the oxidized anode.
>
>Since this would add to the excess heat, I would not worry about it much. I
>only fear accidentally increasing the excess, not overlooking some fraction
>of it.


Jed, think about it.  This makes no sense at all.  You put gasoline into
the chamber and burn it and yes there will appear more heat, BUT it is not
excess.  The "excess" merely comes from failing to add the gasoline BTU's
to the input side of the balance.



>
>
>>This requires weighing the electrodes before and after and then estimating
>>the heat released by the oxidation of the electrode metals.
>
>Also examining the fragments of electrode to determine whether they were
>oxidized or not. Mizuno says they are mechanically fractured and broken
>into small shards. he does not say they are oxidized.


Yes, true. The weighing of the electrodes merely produces an upper bound
for the BTU's added by metal oxidation.  A more correct balance could be
had by oxidizing the deposits and measuring heat released (requiring large
quantities) or better, use of some more sensitive chemical method to
determine the quantity of oxide present.



>
>
>
>>Obtaining a good number requires fairly long run times, 15 minutes or more
>>being sufficient for a rough estimate, depending on the elecrode
>>consumption rate.
>
>Unfortunately, many cathodes only last 10 or 15 minutes.


This can be cured by using larger electrodes.  BTW, in general, my
experiments indicated the heat, as well as a chemically induced glow
present in the electrolyte, depending on anode type, was coming more from
the anode, not the cathode.

Also worthy of note, it was the electrode destruction and oxidation
question that led me to suggest here using powdered metal beds as
electrodes:

     |                        |
     |^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|
     |   Electrolyte          |
     |                        |
     |            |           |
     |            |           |
     |xxxxxxxxxxxx|yyyyyyyyyyy|
     |xxxxxxxxxxxx|yyyyyyyyyyy|
     |xxx anode xx|y cathode y|
     |xxxx bed xxx|yyy bed yyy|
(+)-----xxxxxxxxxx|yyyyyyyy-------(-)
     |xxxxxxxxxxxx|yyyyyyyyyyy|
     --------------------------

    Fig. 1 - Powdered metal bed electrodes


A useful method of removing oxides, possibly fluidized beds, has to be
employed to make the process continuous.


>
>
>>I have found that weighing the electrolyte produces far more accurate
>>results than estimating or measuring fluid volume.  Further, weighing can
>>be employed as the experiment progresses, not just at the beginning and
>>end, even though the electrolytic cell may be enclosed and hot.
>
>Ohmori does this, putting his cell on a precision digital weight scale.
>however, the reaction is so violent it causes the cell to vibrate,
>disturbing the weight scale. The results can only be read to the nearest
>gram while the reaction occurs.


You momentarily shut down the current to do the weighing.  Your input power
balance, if capable of handling micro-dynamics should also handle momentary
power drops.  I have not seen any significant change in electrode
performance due to momentary power drops.

>
>
>>Another problem that can cause a large error in the energy balance is
>>failure to obtain good solid power measurements that include the power in
>>brief spikes.
>
>Mizuno uses an expensive Yokogawa PZ4000 for this. The Yokogawa sales
>engineers said this would be the best model for this purpose. Actually,
>though, it agrees closely with the cheaper meters, so perhaps the spikes
>cannot make as much difference as one might think.


This might be an indication that some other method of power measurement
confirmation is in order.  This was an old and lengthy debate here, if I
recall, and I don't have time now to rehash it fully.

One method of confirmation that might be considered that relies a bit more
on first principles, or at least better reveals the base data, is the
detailed measurment of a representative time sample of i and V data using
fast digital sampling.  I used a scope with a 1 GHz sample rate, and that
seemed to be way more than adequate for catching all the transients.  It is
then just a matter of  software to do the multiplication and integration.


>
>
>>    Simply measuring current and assuming the voltage
>>regulation is solid and the current is uniform DC is not sufficient.
>
>Actually the answer you get from that method is remarkably close to the
>Yokogawa number, much to the surprise of Mizuno and me. Ohmori was not
>surprised.


So I take it someone employed a large inductance in both the power leads to
the cell?  This had not happened at the time of the lengthy vortex
discussion on this.  I found that, by employing a small capacitance bypass
capacitor on the cell side of the inductors, close to the electrodes, the
fast current dynamics could be maintained while getting better power
measurements upstream.


>
>
>>Continuing to run the experiment without electrolysis current,
>>while measuring the temperature decline curve and inside-outside
>>differential over time, provides a means to fairly accurately esimate the
>>thermal constant of the cell.  Stiring also makes this procedure more
>>accurate.
>
>Mizuno and Ohmori always record the cooling curve. Mizuno always stirs, but
>Ohmori does not.
>
>
>>As with various "ou" experiments I have done in the past, my experience
>>has been with high voltage electrolysis that the energy balance
>>discrepancy disappears in proportion to the refinements employed in the
>>measurements. The longer you work on it the more the excess enthalpy
>>disappears.
>
>Mizuno worked on it for two years, in consultation with electrical
>engineering department at the University and with a major corporations that
>replicated his results and then provided him with several upgraded
>instruments. He has used increasingly better instruments, but the excess
>has not decreased.
>
>- Jed


This is somewhat encouraging, but it would be good to have positive results
from severe skeptics who have the mindset to dig hard to find problems.

Also notable in my experience is that the probability of excess heat is
proportional to the variability in the data.  As the energy balance becomes
more repeatable and precise, the excess heat goes away.  Personally, I'd
like to see the error bars - once the full energy balance is accounted,
which it apparently is not.

BTW, I do not feel that there is no prospect at all for a HV ou
electrolysis experiment.  In fact, I think it may be one of the best
avenues for an Edisonian search.  I had in mind many many more combinations
of things to test, with good reasons to test them.  Circumstance and other
priorities have, unfortunately, led me away from experimental research.

Still, I think the "disappering ou syndrome" and the "ou appearing along
with large error bars syndrome"  should both be expected to be likely
outcomes of any line of research.  In my opinion, polyanna expectations
based on dubious results at best should not be the basis for solicitation
of major funds sold with the intent of funding profitable economic
development.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 30 13:39:55 2002
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Subject: RE: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
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Hi Horace.

You write.
>So I take it someone employed a large inductance in both the power leads to
>the cell?  This had not happened at the time of the lengthy vortex
>discussion on this.  I found that, by employing a small capacitance bypass
>capacitor on the cell side of the inductors, close to the electrodes, the
>fast current dynamics could be maintained while getting better power
>measurements upstream.

Something I always wondered about these electrolytic "spark gap"
experiments...

1) What kind of rise and fall times do you typically see on the spikes?

2) Is risetime limited by the circuit parameters? Or by the arc process
itself.

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 30 14:08:43 2002
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Horace Heffner wrote:

> >>especially failing to determine the enthalpy of the oxidized anode.
> >
> >Since this would add to the excess heat, I would not worry about it much. I
> >only fear accidentally increasing the excess, not overlooking some fraction
> >of it.
>
>
>Jed, think about it.  This makes no sense at all.  You put gasoline into
>the chamber and burn it and yes there will appear more heat . . .

Ah, I had the logic reversed. I was thinking you would estimate the energy 
produced by measuring oxidation. You are saying the energy is measured with 
ordinary calorimetry and chemical sources have to be taken into account. In 
any case, they do analyze the fragments of cathode extensively.


> >Unfortunately, many cathodes only last 10 or 15 minutes.
>
>
>This can be cured by using larger electrodes.

Various physical limitations in the power supplies and calorimetry prevent 
the use of larger cathodes.


>BTW, in general, my experiments indicated the heat, as well as a 
>chemically induced glow present in the electrolyte, depending on anode 
>type, was coming more from the anode, not the cathode.

The anode is much larger and does not glow. (They could reverse current!)


> >Ohmori does this, putting his cell on a precision digital weight scale.
> >however, the reaction is so violent it causes the cell to vibrate,
> >disturbing the weight scale. The results can only be read to the nearest
> >gram while the reaction occurs.
>
>
>You momentarily shut down the current to do the weighing.

It really doesn't matter. You get a good reading at the beginning and the 
end. The details during the run are blurred.


> >Mizuno uses an expensive Yokogawa PZ4000 for this. The Yokogawa sales
> >engineers said this would be the best model for this purpose. Actually,
> >though, it agrees closely with the cheaper meters, so perhaps the spikes
> >cannot make as much difference as one might think.
>
>
>This might be an indication that some other method of power measurement 
>confirmation is in order.

They have tried every method suggested by the EE Dept' and by various visitors.


>One method of confirmation that might be considered that relies a bit more
>on first principles, or at least better reveals the base data, is the
>detailed measurment of a representative time sample of i and V data using 
>fast digital sampling.  I used a scope with a 1 GHz sample rate . . .

This was done, but I am not sure what the sampling rate was.


>So I take it someone employed a large inductance in both the power leads 
>to the cell?  This had not happened at the time of the lengthy vortex 
>discussion on this.

Ask Mizuno: mizuno athena.hune.hokudai.ac.jp


> >Mizuno worked on it for two years, in consultation with electrical
> >engineering department at the University and with a major corporations that
> >replicated his results and then provided him with several upgraded
> >instruments. He has used increasingly better instruments, but the excess
> >has not decreased. . . .
>
>This is somewhat encouraging, but it would be good to have positive 
>results from severe skeptics who have the mindset to dig hard to find problems.

"Severe" skeptics are not qualified to perform experiments. Their mindset 
prevents them. They are as bad as the worst true believers. A classic 
example was Tom Droege. He wrote several pages dismissing the Griggs 
machine because he suspected it was interfering with the thermocouple 
readings. He might have tested this idea by watching the thermocouple 
readings when the machine was turned off and on. He would have seen the 
numbers do not not jump or change abruptly. (Real change is gradual over 
several minutes.) Or, he might have measured the temperature within mercury 
thermometer. He travelled all the way to Georgia and did not bother to 
glance at a meter or printout data. No observation could have been easier 
to make. No hypothesis would be easier to check, and disprove. "There are 
none so blind . . ."

Before contributing to or critiquing an experiment, the skeptic has to 
honestly believe that the anomaly might be real. That is the minimum 
qualification, which most "severe skeptics" fail to meet.


>Also notable in my experience is that the probability of excess heat is
>proportional to the variability in the data.  As the energy balance 
>becomes more repeatable and precise, the excess heat goes away.

Mizuno and Ohmori have seen almost 100% repeatable glow discharge excess 
heat for years.


>Still, I think the "disappering ou syndrome" and the "ou appearing along
>with large error bars syndrome"  should both be expected to be likely
>outcomes of any line of research.

Unless you have looked very carefully at the data and techniques described 
by O&M, I do not see how you can make this judgment.


>In my opinion, polyanna expectations based on dubious results at best 
>should not be the basis for solicitation of major funds sold with the 
>intent of funding profitable economic development.

They are not soliciting funds from anyone. Their work and its resulting 
intellectual property is in the public domain. It is basic research being 
conducted with public funds, like string theory and the top quark, except 
it might be worth trillions of dollars in the near future, and it might 
save the planet from catastrophic global warming. So it is important to 
look very carefully at the data and techniques before judging the research.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 30 14:27:34 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Eric Krieg bet
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>He's referring to Eric Krieg, noted internet skeptic, who offers some 
>small sum of money in exchange for the "holy grail" (smile). It's a clever 
>bet on his part but doubtful he'd ever get a serious contender.

What bothers me about this, as I told Krieg, is that he applies to 
this  standard to all research, in all venues. It might be appropriate for 
a basement inventor, but it is ridiculous for him to dismiss research at 
Los Alamos or Mitsubishi because the researchers in those organizations 
will not except a $10,000 wager proposed by Eric Krieg -- a guy they have 
never heard of. Who does he think he is? The center of the universe and the 
ultimate authority? He judges the validity of experimental results based 
upon people's reactions to his own words -- his absurd wager! He does not 
respond when I tell him that researchers at Mitsubishi do not speak English 
and would not be authorized to make bets or accept money, so his standard 
does not apply.

Also, like many irrational skeptics, he insists that all experiments must 
be "cheap." They never give a reason for this -- they just set an arbitrary 
rule that any CF experiment must be inexpensive and easy to do. When I told 
him that the Mitsubishi experiment probably costs more than $10 million, he 
did not respond.

I think his bet is cheap trick to evade the issue and prevent objective 
discussions.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 30 14:43:05 2002
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 13:42:27 -0900
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
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Say, it just occurred to me that I did not do the energy balance for my
experiments correctly!  I assumed that the oxygen for the the metal
oxidation came from oxygen dissolved in the water.  In fact, stirring in
the manner I did may have actually helped make that assumption true to some
extent, by dragging air down into the electrolyte, from the vigorous
rotation of a small glass rod, but I think surely not it can not fully
account for the balance I obtained.

So here is the thing: if the oxygen does not come from ambient oxygen, it
must come from the water itself, and there is a unmeasured heat output in
the form of pure hydrogen exiting the cell along with the steam.  The
hydrogen evolved must be balanced against the amount of oxide formed.

If there is no supply of oxygen to the steam, and no recombination, and/or
no hydrogen capture from the released steam in the form of an inverted
water trap, then the energy balance can not be fully made.  I did not
attempt to measure hydrogen release because I assumed nearly full
recombination in the cell, which is a fairly accurate assumption in a
plasma environment - UNLESS the metal electrode captures some of the
oxygen, leaving hydrogen that has no corresponding oxygen with which to
recombine.

I think it must be important to degass the water prior to the experiment in
order to quickly establish equilibrium.   Perhaps microwaving the
electrolyte to boiling point as I did helped to degass quickly.  But, in
any case, it is much more important to measure the hydrogen evolved from
the cell.  I didn't do this.  For this reason, my experiments which showed
a nice energy balance were probably very significantly out of balance.
This would be especially true in the case of aluminum  electrodes, because
the enthalpy of aluminum oxidstion is very high.  Aluminum is valence 3,
and light, so it sucks a lot of oxygen up per gram oxidized.  There was
probably a large amount of undetected H2 released in those experiments,
especially late in the runs.  The heat of hydrogen oxidation might more
than fully offset the heat of the metal oxidation.

My experiments likely indicated an ou condition.  Perhaps the "disappering
ou syndrome" also works to produce a false negative result.  You can be
trapped by fiddling around until things look unexciting and then quitting
due to lack of reason for motivation.  This is just as bad an error as
fiddling around in a large error bar environment and stopping when a
positive result is obtained (and/or ignoring/discarding the prior negative
runs.)

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
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At 5:05 PM 1/30/2, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>"Severe" skeptics are not qualified to perform experiments. Their mindset
>prevents them. They are as bad as the worst true believers. A classic
>example was Tom Droege. He wrote several pages dismissing the Griggs
>machine because he suspected it was interfering with the thermocouple
>readings. He might have tested this idea by watching the thermocouple
>readings when the machine was turned off and on. He would have seen the
>numbers do not not jump or change abruptly. (Real change is gradual over
>several minutes.) Or, he might have measured the temperature within mercury
>thermometer. He travelled all the way to Georgia and did not bother to
>glance at a meter or printout data. No observation could have been easier
>to make. No hypothesis would be easier to check, and disprove. "There are
>none so blind . . ."
>
>Before contributing to or critiquing an experiment, the skeptic has to
>honestly believe that the anomaly might be real. That is the minimum
>qualification, which most "severe skeptics" fail to meet.


Though I agree in general with what you say, if a skeptic does the
experiment and comes up positive, you definitely have reached a major
milestone!  Also, I think skeptics serve a good role in this field because,
practically by definition, you have to be an extreme optimist to even do
work in this field.  Skeptics, I think, are more motivated to find flaws if
they exist.  Unfortunately, as you point out, they are also eager to accept
non-flaws as flaws and make flaws where none exist.


>
>
>>Also notable in my experience is that the probability of excess heat is
>>proportional to the variability in the data.  As the energy balance
>>becomes more repeatable and precise, the excess heat goes away.
>
>Mizuno and Ohmori have seen almost 100% repeatable glow discharge excess
>heat for years.
>
>
>>Still, I think the "disappering ou syndrome" and the "ou appearing along
>>with large error bars syndrome"  should both be expected to be likely
>>outcomes of any line of research.
>
>Unless you have looked very carefully at the data and techniques described
>by O&M, I do not see how you can make this judgment.


This is a general judgement, not specific to any researcher. It is not
reasonable to EXPECT major disoveries from such small efforts, though it IS
reasonble to have the open mind that it is possible.  It is far more
reasonable to expect that refinements will lead to a narrowing down of
results to those predicted by conventional science.



>
>
>>In my opinion, polyanna expectations based on dubious results at best
>>should not be the basis for solicitation of major funds sold with the
>>intent of funding profitable economic development.
>
>They are not soliciting funds from anyone.


Yes, especially not funds earmarked for pure research.  Further they
publish their results.  Their motives are pure.  Not true far all who post
here, I think.


>Their work and its resulting
>intellectual property is in the public domain. It is basic research being
>conducted with public funds, like string theory and the top quark, except
>it might be worth trillions of dollars in the near future, and it might
>save the planet from catastrophic global warming. So it is important to
>look very carefully at the data and techniques before judging the research.


All true.  However, it is also true that we researchers must not allow our
optimism to infect investors or ourselves with expectations of commercial
development far before it is time.  Investors should be well warned against
throwing what they expect to be development money into what is actually
pure research being done by rank amateurs like myself, as opposed to
professional scientists like Mizuno and Ohmori.  It is important that all
of us have a solid dose of realism occasionally when it comes to matters of
money.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 30 15:02:45 2002
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
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At 5:05 PM 1/30/2, Jed Rothwell wrote:


>They are not soliciting funds from anyone.


I wrote: "Yes, especially not funds earmarked for pure research.  Further
they publish their results.  Their motives are pure.  Not true far all who
post here, I think."


The above was a typo. I meant it to read: "Yes, especially not funds OTHER
THAN THOSE earmarked for pure research.  Further they publish their
results.  Their motives are pure.  Not true far all who post here, I
think."

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 30 15:58:09 2002
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
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Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water. A MULTIMEYER ???
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	TYPO.....


	??	A MULTIMEYER	???


	
	WITH A MULTIMEYER AND A
	WITH A MULTIMEYER AND A

	See FLAG, Please 

On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Jones Beene wrote:

> From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>
> 
> > As with various "ou" experiments I have done in the past, my
> experience has
> > been with high voltage electrolysis that the energy balance
> discrepancy
> > disappears in proportion to the refinements employed in the
> measurements.

	----------	CUT	------

...... With highly spiked pulses, your normally accurate DMM
> might be off - not by just a few percent but a few hundred
> percent !!!
> 
> Matter of fact, I have put much of the following power
> measurement information on vortex several time over the past
> years, but it never hurts to hammer it in.
> 
> As well-known electronics commentator Don Lancaster is fond of
> saying, YOU CANNOT MEASURE POWER WITH A MULTIMEYER AND A REGULAR
> O'SCOPE.
> 


			WITH A MULTIMEYER AND A

		__________	FLAG	_____________

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jan 30 18:11:55 2002
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
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At 5:05 PM 1/30/2, Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Various physical limitations in the power supplies and calorimetry prevent
>the use of larger cathodes.


Some tricks I found useful on occasion were to increase the resistance of
the electrolyte or to encourage the formation of a dielectric or
semiconductor coating on the electrodes.  Sodium metasilicate Na2SiO2 was
useful for this, but other silicates also seemed to work.  The film
formation is detected by a large phase shift in AC applied to the cell,
viewable as an "eye" in an x-y oscilloscope plot, and by the increase in
cell resistance over a period of about 5 minutes.  However, I was
experimenting in the "electrospark" arena, not the high current plasma
sheath arena, which requires a high current density.

For the amateur, pulsed or unregulated DC is perhaps more difficult to
measure, but seeems to work pretty well, and permits building large cheap
power supplies of various kinds, which makes larger electrodes and higher
operating voltages affordable.


>
>
>>BTW, in general, my experiments indicated the heat, as well as a
>>chemically induced glow present in the electrolyte, depending on anode
>>type, was coming more from the anode, not the cathode.
>
>The anode is much larger and does not glow. (They could reverse current!)

I should note that the glow to which I refer is NOT a plasma sheath glow,
which is located close to the electrodes.  It is a blue glow out in the
electrolyte away from the anode.  It could be the higher voltages I used
caused the effect, so you or others may not have seen it. For example, in
one experiment it showed up at roughly 540-576 V, and above that brightness
seemed proportional to added voltage.  It is true that I often used similar
sized anodes and cathodes.  When I first saw the glow I panicked, thinking
it was Cherenkov radiation.  A geiger counter quickly showed that must not
be true, however.  I suspect it is from anode material oxidizing out in the
solution (as opposed to at the electrode surface or in a plasma sheath.)  I
do not know why such oxidation would take place so far from the anode.  I
have never seen this blue glow around a cathode.  I see now that I should
have looked for the glow in the vicinity of a Pt anode, i.e. used a Pt
anode which is not prone to dissolve.  I often preferred to use anodes and
cathodes of the same metal so as to (hopefully) increase the electrode life
by deposition and periodic electrode or current direction exchange.  Al
produced a significant glow, Mg and Pb produced none.  It is notable that
Pb is not prone to dissolve.  Zr produced some.  Interestingly, an aluminum
electrolyte, alum, K2Al2(SO4)4*34(H2O), did not work well.  The blue glow
appeared to be related to dielectric or semiconducting film formation, and
some candidates for the surface film resulting from Li and silicon based
"conditioning" of Al electrodes are spodumene (LiAlSi2O6) or petalite
(LiAlSi4O10). I typically included lithium sulphate in my electrolytes.
CaO electrolyte also produced the glow, as did phosphate bearing
detergents.  I never pinned down the cause of the glow.


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: RE: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
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At 4:48 PM 1/30/2, Keith Nagel wrote:
>Hi Horace.
>
>You write.
>>So I take it someone employed a large inductance in both the power leads to
>>the cell?  This had not happened at the time of the lengthy vortex
>>discussion on this.  I found that, by employing a small capacitance bypass
>>capacitor on the cell side of the inductors, close to the electrodes, the
>>fast current dynamics could be maintained while getting better power
>>measurements upstream.
>
>Something I always wondered about these electrolytic "spark gap"
>experiments...
>
>1) What kind of rise and fall times do you typically see on the spikes?


I went through a number of my lab books and am embarassed to say I could
not find much data, though I know I did some measurements.  I did the
experiments about 4 years ago, so my memory is unfortunately not very
reliable.  My recollection is that the pulses, as measured close to the
electrode, are about a microsecond in duration.   One note shows an about 1
MHz white noise background with larger 1 microsecond spikes with some
trailing harmonics at about 18 microsecond separation, giving a sparking
frequency of about 18 microseconds.  The sparking frequency may be a
function of the circuit, because it looked very regular at about 56 kHz.
However, I did not see any average slope between sparks, which indicates
that the events were not part of a relaxation oscillator effect of an
external circuit.


>
>2) Is risetime limited by the circuit parameters? Or by the arc process
>itself.


The rise time observed is of course reduced by long power leads, but this
in my opinion has nothing to do with the causative events.  I feel sure
that the rise time is purely or almost entirely a function of things
happening on the electrode surface.  My observation was that the ferocity
of the events, the noise and size of observed electrode transients, can be
increased by use of a small bypass capacitor placed across the electrodes,
but this was mainly subjective.  My impression is that cathode and/or anode
spot migration produced the transients.  Viewing the electrodes under a
microscope showed the cold remains of the spots to be craters a few microns
in diameter.   I intentionally tried to increase the speed and intensity of
the electrospark phenomena by building insulating barriers on the
electrodes which would break down under high voltage and then self-heal.
This was in order to concentrate the plasma energy, and to permit a high
operating voltage.  I had some success at this.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 31 01:02:06 2002
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>thomas malloy wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>  > If true, this would allow
>>  Chris to close the loop, and claim Eric's Prize, which would make me
>>  smile.
>
><snip>
>
>Who is Eric and what is his prize? Is this a prize for an OU device 
>running in a
>closed loop?
>
>Regards,
>Jon

Eric Kreig webmaster of phact.org I'd suggest the links at the bottom 
with his name on it. As I recall, the machine has to produce 1 KW of 
usable energy, it has to run, unattended, for so many hours, and 
can't utilize radioneuclides.

Gene Mallove further posted;

As far as the PAGD device goes, it can run a 500 watt draw motor right now,
with only 50 watts DC input. See my  testimonial to that effect.  Previous
problems of transduction to O/U motor operation have been solved.  Closing
that loop is a foregone conclusion -- engineering the generator only. The

Ok Gene, that settles it, I'm going to have to quit picking on the Correas.


-- 

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Subject: Plasma can crack water.
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I think that we're all in agreement that plasma can crack water, is 
that correct?

The question is O U, I think it depends of how many times O U the 
machine is, I think that we can all agree that if the machine is say 
125% O U that sophisticated calorimetry will be required and the 
oxidation of the electrodes will have to be factored in. OTHO, if the 
machine is operating at 1000% then no oxidation of the electrodes 
will account for the brown's gas production. Does every body agree?

So, Chris, what kind of a COP are you claiming?

While I'm on the subject. hydrogen is hydrogen and Brown's Gas is 
Brown's Gas, one explodes and the other implodes. This is a very 
important distinction particularly when a manufacturer is purchasing 
product liability insurance.

>Another thing, has anybody tried generating a small amount of 
>Brown's Gas and adding it to the incommimg air stream of an internal 
>combustion engine?
>
>
>This is somewhat encouraging, but it would be good to have positive results
>from severe skeptics who have the mindset to dig hard to find problems.
>

-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 31 01:04:15 2002
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 02:19:16 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Eric Krieg bet, and defenders of the old paradigm
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>Jed Rothwell posted;


>except a $10,000 wager proposed by Eric Krieg -- a guy they have 
>never heard of. Who does he think he is? The center of the universe 
>and the ultimate

This isn't a wager Jed, it is a prize for a working machine, as in a 
generator that will power your lights. I don't think I need to 
expound any further on this do I?

Also, like many irrational skeptics, he insists that all experiments 
must be "cheap." They never give a reason for this -- they just set 
an arbitrary rule

Have you ever heard the Gold Rule Jed? Well Eric has the gold, and 
he's making the rules. I don't think I need to say more do I?

I just thought of something else Jed, is it true that only a small 
percentage of the expected energy of the observed fusion reactions is 
expressed as heat?

Jed also posted;

>"Severe" skeptics are not qualified to perform experiments. Their mindset
>prevents them. They are as bad as the worst true believers. A classic
>example was Tom Droege. He wrote several pages dismissing the Griggs
>machine because he suspected it was interfering with the thermocouple
>readings. He might have tested this idea by watching the thermocouple
>readings when the machine was turned off and on. He would have seen the
>numbers do not not jump or change abruptly. (Real change is gradual over
>several minutes.) Or, he might have measured the temperature within mercury
>thermometer. He travelled all the way to Georgia and did not bother to
>glance at a meter or printout data. No observation could have been easier
>to make. No hypothesis would be easier to check, and disprove. "There are
>none so blind . . ."
>
IMHO, your ignoring defenders of the old paradigm Jed, Have you ever 
read Thomas Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions? Kuhn noted 
that people will ignore results that conflict with their pet 
paradigm. What he failed to note was people who would deliberately 
sabotage an experiment in order to protect their pet paradigm. Robert 
Cook, developer of the Cook Inertial Propulsion System recounts the 
story of an engineer who rewrote a computer program in order to make 
it appear that his drive wasn't working. I find this phenomena very 
interesting. Robert Park is a classic example of this. I have 
previously posted his quote about the isotopic ratios.

I can tolerate his commenting on matters concerning physics, he has a 
PhD, posthole digger, degree in the subject. But his sticking his 
nose into the herbal medicine field, in which he NO qualifications, 
what so, ever makes me hot. Furthermore his attacks on energy 
medicine, are even more outrageous. But what makes my blood boil is 
his attacks on our hard won right to purchase what ever herbal 
nutritional supplement I want. The bastard has the gaul to use his 
bully pulpit as editor of the APS's newsletter to try to get that law 
repealed. I think we should take up a collection to buy him some more 
chain saw gas!!! I'd even donate the shade tree in my front yard, if 
I could talk him into cutting it.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 31 02:18:34 2002
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From: "Noel Whitney" <quantum iol.ie>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020130185947.21845B-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water. A MULTIMEYER ???
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:31:33 -0000
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Cant believe what i am seeing - A Multi Meyer ! I had to deal with only one
Meyer when I was on a Water Cracking trip with High Voltages but a Multi
Meyer - thats too much.

Or is this a Freudian Slip ?

No - My wife says - Thats what you wear over a Freudian Bra and pants :-)
----- Original Message -----
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:03 AM
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water. A MULTIMEYER ???


>
>
> TYPO.....
>
>
> ?? A MULTIMEYER ???
>
>
>
> WITH A MULTIMEYER AND A
> WITH A MULTIMEYER AND A
>
> See FLAG, Please
>
> On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Jones Beene wrote:
>
> > From: "Horace Heffner" <hheffner mtaonline.net>
> >
> > > As with various "ou" experiments I have done in the past, my
> > experience has
> > > been with high voltage electrolysis that the energy balance
> > discrepancy
> > > disappears in proportion to the refinements employed in the
> > measurements.
>
> ---------- CUT ------
>
> ...... With highly spiked pulses, your normally accurate DMM
> > might be off - not by just a few percent but a few hundred
> > percent !!!
> >
> > Matter of fact, I have put much of the following power
> > measurement information on vortex several time over the past
> > years, but it never hurts to hammer it in.
> >
> > As well-known electronics commentator Don Lancaster is fond of
> > saying, YOU CANNOT MEASURE POWER WITH A MULTIMEYER AND A REGULAR
> > O'SCOPE.
> >
>
>
> WITH A MULTIMEYER AND A
>
> __________ FLAG _____________
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 31 04:46:26 2002
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 03:42:52 -0900
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Plasma can crack water.
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At 2:19 AM 1/31/2, thomas malloy wrote:
>I think that we're all in agreement that plasma can crack water, is
>that correct?


Energy cracks water, be it in the kinetic energy of plasma or the energy of
a field.  Energy is released when hydrogen and oxygen atoms bond.  Bonding
is a symmetric process.  It takes exactly the same amount of energy to pull
the atoms apart that they gave up to heat (by accelerating together and
then oscillating and/or radiating) when bonding.  The key to an "ou"
cracking process is to either tap nuclear energy or some external energy
source, such as ZPE, to assist in breaking the bond.  We all know that both
nuclear energy and ZPE exist, but the problem is finding a low energy
method to release it in a controlled fashion.  We are immersed in a sea of
energy but barely have a drop to drink.  Advanced civilizations must marvel
at our ignorance.

The symmetry of bonds (bond energy) comes from the symmetry of the
electrostatic field about a charge.  An alternative means to free energy is
to find an energy efficient means of changing the way electrostatic fields
work.  This is much more difficult and likely impossible approach.
Further, this approach is looking where we don't know free energy exists
when we know it lies all about us for the taking.


>
>The question is O U, I think it depends of how many times O U the
>machine is, I think that we can all agree that if the machine is say
>125% O U that sophisticated calorimetry will be required and the
>oxidation of the electrodes will have to be factored in. OTHO, if the
>machine is operating at 1000% then no oxidation of the electrodes
>will account for the brown's gas production. Does every body agree?


No, not at all.  There are schemes that rely on the pyrolysis of carbon, or
hydrocarbons, for example.  Carbon is combined with oxygen to make carbon
monoxide, which still further yields energy when the CO is burned external
to the cell.  The hydrogen freed from the hydrocarbons can then be also be
utilized for energy.  There are a variety of reactions or processes that
can then be employed to create hydrogen and oxygen, or methane if
preferred.  All these process are chemical and there is nothing special
about them with regard to energy balance. You are merely burning fuel with
the help of electricity as a catalyst.  Proof of the existence of an ou
process comes only with experimental evidence.  Obtaining that evidence is
not easy.

However, all that said, I strongly agree that a 1000 percent ou process is
FAR easier to confirm or disprove at that level than a 10 percent process.
It is also far easier to "close the loop" and gain the ultimate
confirmation, energy out with no energy in.


>
>So, Chris, what kind of a COP are you claiming?

Is Chris claiming an ou Brown's gas generator?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 31 07:46:02 2002
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 07:32:28 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water. A MULTIMEYER ???
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From: "Noel Whitney" <quantum iol.ie>

> Cant believe what I am seeing - A Multi Meyer ! I had to deal with only one
> Meyer when I was on a Water Cracking trip with High Voltages but a Multi
> Meyer - thats too much.

> Or is this a Freudian Slip ?

That's clever... and thanks to John for the two messages that
point out this spelling error, but geeeze guys since when do we
start carping over such trivia, especially on this forum?

Actually, being mildly dyslexic, I would be basically
incommunicado without the services of a spell checker. And now I
have found out first-hand that it is unwise  to have checked the
"ignore words in capitals" box in the settings.

Thanks again.







From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 31 07:46:16 2002
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:41:43 -0500
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Subject: Mendacity for what purpose?
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Frank Z. wrote to Robert Park, and copied the message to me. Park favored 
us with one of his rare, personal responses, repeating the same thing he 
has said since since 1989. He wrote:

>I have absolutely no idea who you are.  I do know the people you 
>mention  and therefore do not know whether to attribute your remarks to 
>foolishness or mendacity.

That's his entire message. I mean literally: that is all he said, or has 
ever said or thought, in 13 years. I realize it is a waste of time, but I 
responded as follows:


This has been your unchanging response since 1989. I have often wondered 
why you accuse these researchers of mendacity. What would be the point? 
People generally lie in order to achieve some goal: to steal money or bring 
public notoriety to themselves. Scientists eschew notoriety, and the ones 
who publish positive cold fusion have their funds cut, not augmented. It is 
possible they are foolish, but I do not see any motivation for mendacity. 
It is clear to everyone that talking about cold fusion or trying to publish 
papers about it usually leads to abrupt career suicide. If there is any 
motivation to lie it would be in the opposite direction, that is, to 
falsify or misrepresent positive data as a negative result, the way the MIT 
and Cal Tech researchers did in 1989.

I do not see why you think mendacity would bring any benefit in academic 
circumstances, and it seems even less likely to help in corporate R&D, 
where the stakes are higher. Consider the cold fusion research program at 
the Advanced Technology Research Center, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. This 
has been underway for many years. The equipment costs millions of dollars. 
Since 1996 they have reported 100 percent reproducible nuclear effects 
including excess heat beyond limits of chemistry, gamma rays, 
transmutations and so on. They have confirmed these results by sending 
transmuted samples to be tested independently at other corporations in 
Japan and Europe. The research is controversial within Mitsubishi, but top 
management has approved the project year after year. Please explain why the 
top managers, the researchers, and their Japanese and European colleagues 
in other companies would all be lying about these results. Do you believe 
they are engaged in a secret conspiracy? If this research is bogus, surely 
they must know the secret will come to light sooner or later, and they will 
be in deep trouble. These scientists are graduates of Japan's top 
universities, working in one of the nation's pre-eminent laboratories. Why 
do you believe they have deliberately thrown away ten years of their lives, 
and trashed their own reputations?

It seems to me that your claim of "mendacity" can only be justified by 
wild-eyed pulp-fiction style conspiracy theories, and peculiar, distorted 
ideas about human nature. You think that professional scientists routinely 
destroy themselves for no purpose, with no possible redeeming benefit.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 31 08:35:28 2002
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:30:33 -0500
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Eric Krieg bet, and defenders of the old paradigm
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thomas malloy wrote:

>This isn't a wager Jed, it is a prize for a working machine, as in a 
>generator that will power your lights. I don't think I need to expound any 
>further on this do I?

It is not a wager or a prize; it is a meaningless publicity stunt. You do 
not need to expound on this, but Krieg ought to. I raised these issues with 
him years ago. He should have responded.

Actually, I too have offered $10,000 rewards to various fringe inventors, 
mainly in order to shut them up. Some have insisted they have a working 
machine. When I get tired of hearing this, I offer to buy one for 
evaluation. I usually offer $10,000, because they usually say the machine 
costs them a few thousand to manufacture. One or two have politely refused 
my offer, but the others shut up and went away. The difference between 
Krieg and me is that I mean it: I would evaluate and purchase a machine. 
Krieg has no intention of evaluating anything, or looking closely at any 
claim. He will not bother to read papers in journals.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water. A MULTIMEYER ???
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> > > > As with various "ou" experiments I have done
> in the past, my
> > > experience has
> > > > been with high voltage electrolysis that the
> energy balance
> > > discrepancy
> > > > disappears in proportion to the refinements
> employed in the
> > > measurements.
> >
> > ---------- CUT ------
> >
> > ...... With highly spiked pulses, your normally
> accurate DMM
> > > might be off - not by just a few percent but a
> few hundred
> > > percent !!!
> > >
> > > Matter of fact, I have put much of the following
> power
> > > measurement information on vortex several time
> over the past
> > > years, but it never hurts to hammer it in.
> > >
> > > As well-known electronics commentator Don
> Lancaster is fond of
> > > saying, YOU CANNOT MEASURE POWER WITH A
> MULTIMEYER AND A REGULAR
> > > O'SCOPE.
How about a multi meter? ( just nitpicking for humor)
With alternator (3 PHASES)inputs of 480 hz, several
situations will create this high frequency, which
creates havok with multimeter amperage readings. Of
course the standard method for creating a high
frequency is to use an arc gap between the midpoints
of two coils placed into series resonance. The meter
malfunctions that accompany this is shown at
Stator voltage kickback/mult traces 
One can use the higher frequencies of the alternator
in accordance with stages of resonant voltage rise, by
use of 3 phase delta series resonances, to increase
the voltage 3 times in sucession from the source
stator, to the interphasal arcing point. The scoping
of the alternator stator voltage shows extra kickback
voltages from the arcing process itself, made by steel
rulers in miniscule arc gap, between somewhat
oppositely phased resonances.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/Flux%20Capacitor/1014c.jpg

 
Here the meter readings for one of the phases is
incapacitated,(center meters). Now high frequency
effects are not limited to those employing an arc. We
can also create high freq effects by spatially
reacting L with C, by using an axial capacity for C,
where this can be placed inside the L of the adjacent
phases resonance. When this is done HF can be seen
riding on the normal phase of resonance, also with a
distortion of the normal sunusoidal shape of that
changing magnetic field in space. When this was done
it caused a COMPLETE voltage meter malfunction.
Normally this chaeper RS meter will shut itself down
in 3 minutes automatically, but now this caused it to
go into some sort of oscillation, displaying a rapid
blinking of nonsensical data. Additionally the meter
would not shut off! This continued until the next day,
when I determined to put an end to this funny
business. I disconnected the battery and then
reconnected it, which restored the meter back to
normal operation!
Now other ways to produce hf are to use neons, or
ferrite, or both in series as an interphasal load in
place of an arc. Because of the ruinous meter abuse
that digital amperage meters are subjected to in
attempting to record lines of current being transposed
to high frequency, I have made the practice of trying
to only use one meter for that purpose, as to not
create problems of opeartion with the other meters.
That meter will often record a 100 fold error on its
amperage conductions, when making larger amperage
readings. Typically this is shown by a two digit error
on placing the decimal point, when making stator
amperage measurements. Most circumstances will reveal
when the error is evident, but not always.
Now I had noticed a peculiar thing with making the
amperage measurements with a neon and ferrite sample
in series as DSR interphasal load as in the recently
posted 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/Outer%20DSR/Dsc00010.jpg
Here the meters show 319 volts enabling a 22 ma
conduction. Having had some previous experience with
knowing the amperage consumptions of neons, I knew
this figure was high, as normally for small neon
discharges as this, the current should be under 3 ma,
and not 22 some ma. I have now found this error to be
true, and here the meter is in 10 fold error, where
actually only 2.2 ma conduction is happening.

The way this was determined was by making an ACTUAL 30
ma conduction thru neon, and then measuring it. In the
first situation because of meter malfunctions, the
meter would normally record no amperage all all when
set at the midrange of 4- 400 ma. Thus the range was
set at the lower value of 0-4 ma. When this is done
the amperage levels can be recorded, BUT I DID NOT
FATHOM THAT IT WAS DELIVERING AN ANSWER IN 10 FOLD
ERROR. What happens is that when the voltage
application is increased the meter will also increase
its amperage consumption, but it does not BLINK
OVERLOAD when exceeding that 0-4ma range. Thus in the
jpeg the 22 ma is being recorded in the incorrect
lower range of 0-4 ma.
Now in the new situation  making much better neon
conductions, the meter went all the way up to over 300
ma in that low range 0-4 ma , and finally DID reach
its overload (registered by meter as overload display)
range, where it then did require that the next range
selection of  4-400 ma to be used. When this was
switched the CORRECT amperage consumption of 30 some
ma then did display itself.
So I can concur with others that digital meters are
not at all what they are cracked up to be, and they
should only be viewed as possible indicators of what
is actually occuring, whenever high freq factors
present themselves. HDN


=====
Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
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Cc: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
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Hi Horace.

I can understand the lack of data in your notebooks,
as you would have had to explicitly intend to study
this aspect of the experiment and design the power
supply and circuit accordingly.

I would not trust the fine structure of a 1 microsecond
signal unless I had designed the circuit
according to good HF practices.

I can also imagine why you weren't seeing any
OU, as it would seem from your test data that the
active process was only occurring 5% of the time,
less in fact if you take the pulse shape into
account. All the rest is just wasted energy.

I liked the idea about the metasilicate, but
wonder if such things wouldn't poisoning the reaction?
Worth testing, to be sure.

I did this sort of experiment in Feb. of 1992, using
a pulsed system rather than the DC supplies now
in vogue. At the time, I remember being pretty
astounded by both the ferocity of the event at
the electrodes, and the LACK of any large explosions/disruptions
I could achieve by proper circuit design. I was
easily vaporizing small tungsten rods with a
couple shots, yet there was no loud report or
dangerous explosion. I'm looking at my old
notes now, what a remarkably complex system the
water arc is!

Now I'm wondering if I should be in touch with
Ohmori and Mizuno, as it's a good bet my power
supply would be far better at producing and
controlling the reaction than a DC set.

On the other hand, this stuff just doesn't
pay the rent so....

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 9:39 PM
To: knagel gis.net; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.


At 4:48 PM 1/30/2, Keith Nagel wrote:
>Hi Horace.
>
>You write.
>>So I take it someone employed a large inductance in both the power leads
to
>>the cell?  This had not happened at the time of the lengthy vortex
>>discussion on this.  I found that, by employing a small capacitance bypass
>>capacitor on the cell side of the inductors, close to the electrodes, the
>>fast current dynamics could be maintained while getting better power
>>measurements upstream.
>
>Something I always wondered about these electrolytic "spark gap"
>experiments...
>
>1) What kind of rise and fall times do you typically see on the spikes?


I went through a number of my lab books and am embarassed to say I could
not find much data, though I know I did some measurements.  I did the
experiments about 4 years ago, so my memory is unfortunately not very
reliable.  My recollection is that the pulses, as measured close to the
electrode, are about a microsecond in duration.   One note shows an about 1
MHz white noise background with larger 1 microsecond spikes with some
trailing harmonics at about 18 microsecond separation, giving a sparking
frequency of about 18 microseconds.  The sparking frequency may be a
function of the circuit, because it looked very regular at about 56 kHz.
However, I did not see any average slope between sparks, which indicates
that the events were not part of a relaxation oscillator effect of an
external circuit.


>
>2) Is risetime limited by the circuit parameters? Or by the arc process
>itself.


The rise time observed is of course reduced by long power leads, but this
in my opinion has nothing to do with the causative events.  I feel sure
that the rise time is purely or almost entirely a function of things
happening on the electrode surface.  My observation was that the ferocity
of the events, the noise and size of observed electrode transients, can be
increased by use of a small bypass capacitor placed across the electrodes,
but this was mainly subjective.  My impression is that cathode and/or anode
spot migration produced the transients.  Viewing the electrodes under a
microscope showed the cold remains of the spots to be craters a few microns
in diameter.   I intentionally tried to increase the speed and intensity of
the electrospark phenomena by building insulating barriers on the
electrodes which would break down under high voltage and then self-heal.
This was in order to concentrate the plasma energy, and to permit a high
operating voltage.  I had some success at this.

Regards,

Horace Heffner


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 31 09:57:13 2002
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   The new issue of the COLD FUSION TIMES (vol 9, no. 1) is out.

   Cover page at one of the following links:

     http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrev91.html

    <a href=http://world.std.com/~mica/cftrev91.html> COLD FUSION TIMES 
(vol 9, no. 1; cover page)  </a>



     Web site::
     http://world.std.com/~mica/cfthtml
    <a href=http://world.std.com/~mica/cft.html> COLD FUSION TIMES  </a>


    There has been a lot going on.  - Material science, engineering, R&D.









From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 31 11:10:32 2002
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Subject: Department of Fantastic Coincidences
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It is no secret that Bush administration energy policy has been strongly 
influenced by Enron and other energy corporations. Anyone knowledgeable 
about energy can see at a glance that the policy favors Enron and other 
producers. Actually, I think the policy wasn't bad. Other, honest companies 
are still at work implementing a competitive market for electricity, wind 
power, and other good ideas pioneered by Enron. It is a shame to see these 
ideas tarnished by association with crooks.

In any case, to deny Enron's influence on policy is ludicrous, but that 
does not stop administration officials from denying their influence. Here 
is the latest from the San Francisco Chronicle:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/31/MN120656.DTL&type=printable

Boxer, Feinstein seize on 'smoking gun' note
White House actions mirrored Enron's ideas

QUOTES:

RESIST PRICE LIMITS

The Enron memo outlines actions that "need to be taken" by the 
administration. In particular, it urges Cheney to resist imposing price 
ceilings requested by California officials to curb soaring electricity costs.
It also stresses that implementation of all of Enron's recommendations 
would provide the best remedy for California's troubles. This position was 
shared by most other industry figures.

"During that time, every official in California was knocking on doors in 
Washington trying to get help," said Loretta Lynch, president of the state 
Public Utilities Commission. "Now we know why Washington let us down."

The White House acknowledges that aspects of the memo resemble portions of 
Cheney's energy plan. But it maintains that this is just coincidental.

"The national energy policy is based on sound science," said Jennifer 
Millerwise, a spokeswoman for Cheney. "Nothing in there benefits a specific 
company or interest group."

She and other White House officials refused to say whether the memo is 
included in notes that Cheney is currently withholding from congressional 
investigators. . . .

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

By stonewalling and withholding, the administration is making a mountain 
out of a molehill. The part about, "Nothing in there benefits a specific 
company or interest group" is hilarious. Cheney should admit the policy 
benefits the new players in the electric power market, including Enron. He 
should be bold and say these innovative new players deserve our support. 
Any policy must favor one party or another, or the policy will not change 
the status quo, or have an effect. When you support conservation or wind 
energy, you hurt coal. When you give oil companies bigger subsidies and 
incentives to drill more, you discourage conservation. Policymaking is the 
act of choosing.

Naturally, I would like to see an energy policy that allocates 0.001% of 
the DoE research budget to cold fusion, but that is out of the question. No 
political party, politician or academic leader anywhere in the country 
would support that. It is politically impossible. You might as well try to 
nominate Usama bin Laden for president.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 31 11:59:43 2002
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Subject: RE: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
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At 12:49 PM 1/31/2, Keith Nagel wrote:
>Hi Horace.
>
>I can understand the lack of data in your notebooks,
>as you would have had to explicitly intend to study
>this aspect of the experiment and design the power
>supply and circuit accordingly.
>
>I would not trust the fine structure of a 1 microsecond
>signal unless I had designed the circuit
>according to good HF practices.


Please note that the electrode measurements I posted have nothing to do
with the signal I used to measure current through the cell in the more
refined experiments.  The measurements posted were taken right off the
electrodes using a high voltage TEK probe.  The current and voltage
readings actually used for determining power into the cell in the high
quality runs were filtered, using a filter in each power lead.  The signal
posted was on the cell side of the filters.


>
>I can also imagine why you weren't seeing any
>OU, as it would seem from your test data that the
>active process was only occurring 5% of the time,


The separation of the large pulses could be reduced by simply pushing more
power through the cell.  This dramatically reduced electrode life though.


>less in fact if you take the pulse shape into
>account. All the rest is just wasted energy.


I smoothed out the pulses for purposes of determining the input.  The
output of a cell is in the form of steam (heat) and gas.  I have suggested
that the reason  I did not see ou is that I did not compute the energy
balance correctly.  I included the energy from burning the metal, but did
not compensate for the quantity of hydrogen (without any corresponding
oxygen) released.  It would therefore appear that the excess energy from my
cells, if it exists, is purely in the form of evolved hydrogen without any
corresponding oxygen.  If that is true, it also appears that aluminum
electrodes were the best.


>
>I liked the idea about the metasilicate, but
>wonder if such things wouldn't poisoning the reaction?
>Worth testing, to be sure.



My initital goal was to obtain a high gradient and operating voltage up
near that Claytor et al used, about 2 kEv.  Doing so in a practical device
requires a means to limit the current - preferably across a small barrier
which takes the large voltage drop.  I have posted various theories here
about why nuclear reactions should sart being catalysed at that voltage -
the principle reason being that the electron's deBroglie wavelength is
small enough to begin to catalyse reactions.


>
>I did this sort of experiment in Feb. of 1992, using
>a pulsed system rather than the DC supplies now
>in vogue. At the time, I remember being pretty
>astounded by both the ferocity of the event at
>the electrodes, and the LACK of any large explosions/disruptions
>I could achieve by proper circuit design. I was
>easily vaporizing small tungsten rods with a
>couple shots, yet there was no loud report or
>dangerous explosion. I'm looking at my old
>notes now, what a remarkably complex system the
>water arc is!


What was the area (size, geometry) of your electrodes and in what frequency
current and voltage range did you operate?


>
>Now I'm wondering if I should be in touch with
>Ohmori and Mizuno, as it's a good bet my power
>supply would be far better at producing and
>controlling the reaction than a DC set.


*IF* the ou portion of the reaction I observed is associated with the
plasma sheath or plasma in sparks on the electrode, then it appears that an
AC or pulsed DC power supply might work very well.  However, I did fiddle
with the resonance of the circuit in the vicinity of the cell, which is
nicely stimulated by electrode sparking, and was disappointed to not see
any significant change in heat output.  However, I did not pursue this very
much.


>
>On the other hand, this stuff just doesn't
>pay the rent so....
>


So ... be generous.  Post!  Might as well have some fun.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 31 13:00:12 2002
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Subject: RE: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
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Correction noted below.

At 12:49 PM 1/31/2, Keith Nagel wrote:
>Hi Horace.
>
>I can understand the lack of data in your notebooks,
>as you would have had to explicitly intend to study
>this aspect of the experiment and design the power
>supply and circuit accordingly.
>
>I would not trust the fine structure of a 1 microsecond
>signal unless I had designed the circuit
>according to good HF practices.


Please note that the electrode measurements I posted have nothing to do
with the signal I used to measure current through the cell in the more
refined experiments.  The measurements posted were taken right off the
electrodes using a high voltage TEK probe.  The current and voltage
readings actually used for determining power into the cell in the high
quality runs were filtered, using a filter in each power lead.  The signal
posted was on the cell side of the filters.

Correction/amendment:

I should also note that the above did not represent the complete waveform
observed or used, only the high frequency component on top of that
waveform.  For example, if AC is used, depending on the electrolyte, film
deposited, and electrode metal, the AC current waveform may be flat, with
almost no conduction up to about 300 V or so, followed by a 0.1 msec rise
time to a flat plateau of current conduction.    A similar shape exists on
the trailing edge. Some of the films showed evidence of current
rectification.  The 1 MHz stuff noted above lies on the plateau of the low
frequency current waveform.  There were too many experiments done with
wildly  varying results and matrials, so it is not possible to fully
characterize all the results in any single snippet.  Also, my memory is not
so good!

I should also say that there were runs produced where electrode wear was
minimal, and that these runs produced no excess heat, unless it was in the
form of evolved hydrogen, which was not measured, and that no compensation
to input for metal oxidation was used in computing the energy balance.  It
is notable that the glow is with the anode, but the principle gas evolution
is at the cathode.  It is my recollection that the vicinity of the anode is
hotter than the cathode, but I have not found that ref. in my lab book yet.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 31 14:08:54 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 09:03:31 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:59:22
-0900:
[snip]
>corresponding oxygen.  If that is true, it also appears that aluminum
>electrodes were the best.
Hi Horace,

You mentioned in a previous post that anomalies appeared around the
anode.
Suppose that hydrinohydride were forming in the plasma. These small
heavy negative particles would be attracted to the anode where they
might react with aluminium nuclei according to 

Al27 + H -> Mg24 + He4 + 1.6 MeV

The strange glow may have been due to the alpha particles.

The reaction may be more likely between Al+++ ions in solution that have
left the anode than at the anode itself, which might explain why the
reaction occurred in solution rather than actually at the anode.
For the reaction mechanism, imagine the hydrinohydride as a large heavy
negative muon, taking up "orbit" as close to the Al nucleus as it could
get. Al+++ would have less electrons to get in the way than Al, and also
would be the strongest positive charge in the electrolyte, making it
most "attractive" to the negatively charged hydrinohydride.

The energetic alphas could have produced extra gas through radiolysis.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 31 15:37:07 2002
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:26:34 -0800
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

> In reply to  Horace Heffner's observation:

> >If that is true, it also appears that aluminum electrodes were the best.

> Suppose that hydrinohydride were forming in the plasma [snip]


With regard to aluminum electrodes, it should also be noted that the Correa's
use Al electrodes, apparently exclusively, and have reported anomalies with no
oxygen or hydrogen present.

Also as far back as 1938, the amazing Philo Farnsworth reported in  patent #
2,135,615 , a Multipactor design that utilized a cathode with many apertures
through which electrons are accelerated to another cathode with a theoretical
gain of over 10* e>6 (at the expense of voltage) that Aluminum cathodes operated
at greater energy gain than unity, but lasted only minutes.

I don't think Al oxidation could have been responsible, but in both this and the
Correa devices, the explanation for any anomaly would seem to lie in the Charge
Cluster findings of Ken Shoulders, rather than with hydrinos.

Regards,

Jones


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 31 15:54:04 2002
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
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At 9:03 AM 2/1/2, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:59:22
>-0900:
>[snip]
>>corresponding oxygen.  If that is true, it also appears that aluminum
>>electrodes were the best.
>Hi Horace,
>
>You mentioned in a previous post that anomalies appeared around the
>anode.
>Suppose that hydrinohydride were forming in the plasma. These small
>heavy negative particles would be attracted to the anode where they
>might react with aluminium nuclei according to
>
>Al27 + H -> Mg24 + He4 + 1.6 MeV
>
>The strange glow may have been due to the alpha particles.


It seems that 1.4 MeV alphas would produce detectable secondaries.  There
was no response from either a geiger counter or polaroid film pack.  If a
nuclear reaction was occuring, then it was occuring it was occuring in some
unusual mode.


>
>The reaction may be more likely between Al+++ ions in solution that have
>left the anode than at the anode itself, which might explain why the
>reaction occurred in solution rather than actually at the anode.

Yes, of course.  That is why I suspect simple oxidation in the solution.
Otherwise, where are the (oxygen) bubbles from the anode during cell
startup?


>For the reaction mechanism, imagine the hydrinohydride as a large heavy
>negative muon, taking up "orbit" as close to the Al nucleus as it could
>get. Al+++ would have less electrons to get in the way than Al, and also
>would be the strongest positive charge in the electrolyte, making it
>most "attractive" to the negatively charged hydrinohydride.


Yes, I considered this posibility too. That is one reason why I tried alum
in the electrolyte - to up the Al ion concentration.  My notes say it
performed poorly, but at this date I am not sure what that means.  I feel
fairly certain it means, at minimum, the blue glow disappeared.  I must
say, I don't know for sure exactly what alum does in solution.  Aluminum
hydroxide, AlOH, has a VERY low solubility, so I am not real sure what alum
looks like in solution.


>
>The energetic alphas could have produced extra gas through radiolysis.


Could be, but there was one heck of a lot of glow to not be producing
detectable secondary radiation.  The device LOOKED radiactive, and created
fear and consternation in my family when they observed it, but I saw no
evidence of a nuclear reaction from either a counter or from film.  I did
no trace chemical or isotopic analysis of the leftovers, however.  I'm not
qualified and don't have the resources for that.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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 --></style><title>Dr. Park</title></head><body>
<div><font face="Palatino" size="+2" color="#000000">Fellow
Vortexians;</font></div>
<div><font face="Palatino" size="+2" color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font face="Palatino" size="+2" color="#000000">I am posting this
for your review and comments.</font></div>
<div><font face="Palatino" size="+2" color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font face="Palatino" size="+2" color="#000000">Dear Dr.
Park;<br>
<br>
I want to give you a chance to comment on this.<br>
<br>
Robert Park teaches physics at the University of Maryland. He also
edits the American Physical Society's Newsletter. He is a classic
example of a post hole digger, a Ph.D who doesn't know much. As a
defender of the old paradigm he has taken to referring to experiments,
the results of which, conflict with his pet paradigms, as voodoo
science.</font><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Palatino" size="+2" color="#000000">In 1972 Thomas
Kuhn published The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, in which he
talked about paradigm revolutions, and how defenders of the old
paradigm will ignore evidence which conflicts with their pet paradigm.
It is well established by experiment, that, when a palladium electrode
is electrolyzed in water, and anomalous heat is exhibited, that
following this process, a chemical analysis of the electrode will
reveal the presence of elements not in the electrode to begin with. If
these elements are isolated, and subjected to an isotopic analysis,
the isotopic ratio will reveal the presence of rare isotopes. I refer
to these isotopes as 2%'ers because they occur in nature in
concentrations of less than 3%. Rather than acknowledge the
significance of these anomalous isotopic ratios, Dr. Park is reported
to have said, &quot;I don't care about your isotopic
ratios.&quot;</font></div>
<div><font face="Palatino" size="+2" color="#000000"><br>
There is also a well established body of physical theory, the present
advocates of which are Puthoff and Aspden, and going back through
Sakarov and Dirac, back to the time of the natural philosophers,
called the active aether. If this energy could be cohered, it could
provide a unlimited source of energy. I have yet to hear what Dr.
Park's reaction to Puthoff and Aspen's works, but given his derisive
comments about free energy machines, I assume that he regards them as
Voodoo Science too.<br>
<br>
The only thing that is worse than ignoring facts, is the sabotaging of
experiments which conflict with your pet paradigm. Robert Cook,
patentee of the Cook Inertial Propulsion System, forceborne.com ,
tells the story of an aircraft engineer who rewrote a computer program
so that it would appear that the inertial drive wasn't producing any
force. Cook's Drive, which will necessitate renaming Newton's third
law, into a general rule, is reported to invalidate not only Newtonian
Mechanics, but also the Relativistic Universe. One wonders if Dr. Park
will incorporate this machine's operation into his physics course, but
I assume that he will ignore it too. One is reminded of an article,
published in Scientific American in 1905 asserting the impossibility
of heaver than air flight. Given the Wright Brothers experiments of
1903, this article is a classic example of a defender of the old
paradigm denying reality to the bitter end.</font><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Palatino" size="+2" color="#000000">Not content to
stick to a field in which he is qualified to comment on, Dr. Park has
ventured into medicine too. He has labeled energy medicine, the basis
of the healing regimens of Rieke, Homeopathy, and Acupuncture as
Voodoo Science.&nbsp; He has also used the bully pulpit, which his
position as editor of the APS's Newsletter affords him, to rail
against the hard won law allowing us the freedom to purchase herbal
nutritional supplements.&nbsp; Rather than recommend double blind
tests, which would establish the efficacy of alternative medicine, Dr.
Park contends that they are the result of the placebo effect. Dr. Park
also fails to mention the 250,000 people who die yearly as the result
of mistakes on the part of Allopathic practitioners, and unexpected
side effects of pharmaceutical drugs.&nbsp; This number doesn't count
the victims of cancer,&nbsp; and AID's who die following chemotherapy.
Since there is extensive evidence that both of these diseases can by
eliminated by oxygen, nutritional, and energy therapies, these deaths
should be added to the above figure of victims of the Allopathic
medical monstrosity which he is defending.</font></div>
<div><font face="Palatino" size="+2" color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font face="Palatino" size="+2" color="#000000">For Dr. Park to
presume that he has the right to tell me which healing regimens I can
use, and which nutritional supplements I can take, absolutely
infuriates me. As a form of disrespect I gave him the moniquer of
Parksie. Last summer while cutting down a tree, Dr. Park was seriously
injured when it fell on him. I have taken to making remarks like, we
should take up a collection to buy Parksie some more chain saw gas,
and I'd be willing to donate the shade tree in my front yard if he
needs another tree to chop down. The fact that I'm unashamedly making
these remarks about another human being, should weigh on my conscious,
but in Parksie's case, I have to make an exception.</font></div>
<div><font face="Palatino" size="+2" color="#000000">&nbsp;</font><br>
<font face="Palatino" size="+2" color="#000000"></font></div>
<x-sigsep><pre>-- 
</pre></x-sigsep>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 31 18:22:50 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 13:16:42 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Horace Heffner's message of Thu, 31 Jan 2002 14:55:16
-0900:
[snip]
>Could be, but there was one heck of a lot of glow to not be producing
>detectable secondary radiation.  

I read somewhere that charged particles passing through matter lose
about 400 eV per atom that they pass through. If so, then one might
perhaps expect any secondary radiation (i.e. x-rays) to be rather low
energy, and be absorbed in the water. 
Did you try measuring where the glow intersected the surface?


>The device LOOKED radiactive, and created
>fear and consternation in my family when they observed it, but I saw no
>evidence of a nuclear reaction from either a counter or from film.  

I doubt any particles would make it out of the water, and unless they
are close and have a very thin window, counters mostly measure gamma
rays. So I wouldn't be surprised if your counter didn't detect anything.
The film OTOH should have picked up any x-rays, unless they were very
low frequency, which they may have been, see above.

>I did
>no trace chemical or isotopic analysis of the leftovers, however.  I'm not
>qualified and don't have the resources for that.
[snip]
Having said all that, another possibility is that you were seeing
hydrino shrinkage generated UV affecting the electrolyte. This wouldn't
make it out of the water, and wouldn't register on any of your
detectors. All that would get out would be the visible light that it
degraded to, and perhaps some excess gasses.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 31 19:31:47 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mallove agrees - Plasma can crack water.
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 14:28:20 +1100
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:26:34 -0800:
[snip]
>Also as far back as 1938, the amazing Philo Farnsworth reported in  patent #
>2,135,615 , a Multipactor design that utilized a cathode with many apertures
>through which electrons are accelerated to another cathode with a theoretical
>gain of over 10* e>6 (at the expense of voltage) that Aluminum cathodes operated
>at greater energy gain than unity, but lasted only minutes.

Interesting, is this on the web?

>
>I don't think Al oxidation could have been responsible, but in both this and the
>Correa devices, the explanation for any anomaly would seem to lie in the Charge
>Cluster findings of Ken Shoulders, rather than with hydrinos.

Then please explain the glow in the electrolyte.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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The last paragraph is in need of help.  Based on your apparent intentions 
to bring this letter beyond V, you might want to re-assess the objectives 
of the letter and come up with a different concluding paragraph 
altogther.   Sentence 4, should you decide to keep it, needs some 
structural re-work.



>1. For Dr. Park to presume that he has the right to tell me which healing 
>regimens I can use, and which nutritional supplements I can take, 
>absolutely infuriates me.  2. As a form of disrespect I gave him the 
>moniquer of Parksie.   3. Last summer while cutting down a tree, Dr. Park 
>was seriously injured when it fell on him.  4. I have taken to making 
>remarks like, we should take up a collection to buy Parksie some more 
>chain saw gas, and I'd be willing to donate the shade tree in my front 
>yard if he needs another tree to chop down. The fact that I'm unashamedly 
>making these remarks about another human being, should weigh on my 
>conscious, but in Parksie's case, I have to make an exception.
>
>
>--

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<html>
<font face="Palatino" size=5>The last paragraph is in need of help.&nbsp;
Based on your apparent intentions to bring this letter beyond V, you
might want to re-assess the objectives of the letter and come up with a
different concluding paragraph altogther.&nbsp;&nbsp; Sentence 4, should
you decide to keep it, needs some structural re-work.<br><br>
<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>1. For Dr. Park to presume that he
has the right to tell me which healing regimens I can use, and which
nutritional supplements I can take, absolutely infuriates me.&nbsp;
2</font><font face="Palatino">. </font><font face="Palatino" size=5>As a
form of disrespect I gave him the moniquer of Parksie.&nbsp;&nbsp; 3.
Last summer while cutting down a tree, Dr. Park was seriously injured
when it fell on him.&nbsp; 4. I have taken to making remarks like, we
should take up a collection to buy Parksie some more chain saw gas, and
I'd be willing to donate the shade tree in my front yard if he needs
another tree to chop down. The fact that I'm unashamedly making these
remarks about another human being, should weigh on my conscious, but in
Parksie's case, I have to make an exception.</font><br>
<font face="Palatino" size=5>&nbsp;</font><br><br>
<pre>-- 
</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font></blockquote></html>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jan 31 21:34:14 2002
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
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Subject: Fwd: Reply to Robert Park
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From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Full-name: FZNIDARSIC
Message-ID: <c9.1c9bb4df.298b818b aol.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 00:28:43 EST
Subject: Reply to Robert Park
To: park aps.org, editor@infinite-energy.com,
	JedRothwell infinite-energy.com (Jed Rothwell)
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In a message dated 1/31/02 8:00:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, park aps.org 
writes:


> I have absolutely no idea who you are.  I do know the people you mention  
> and therefore do not know whether to attribute your remarks to foolishness 
> or mendacity.
> 
> 
A few months ago I appeard on the Bill Brochiers show.  This show on Clear 
Channel Communications was broadcast in 37 states.  I did mention, quite a 
few times, what a lousy job you were doing.  I am suprized, after this, that 
you don't know who I am.

Frank Znidarsic

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 1/31/02 8:00:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, park aps.org writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I have absolutely no idea who you are.&nbsp; I do know the people you mention&nbsp; and therefore do not know whether to attribute your re
marks to foolishness or mendacity.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
A few months ago I appeard on the Bill Brochiers show.&nbsp; This show on Clear Channel Communications was broadcast in 37 states.&nbsp; I did mention, quite a few times, what a lousy job you were doing.&nbsp; I am suprized, after this, that you don't kno
w who I am.<BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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