From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  1 08:58:23 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA25870;
	Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:53:58 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:53:58 -0700
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Weapons-grade uranium headed to Iraq
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:09:00 -0400
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMEHNDFAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Importance: Normal
In-Reply-To: <llaipuole8rag3gc1vmo8mna7c8c8uut88 4ax.com>
X-Rcpt-To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"OfF6t3.0.5K6.LKScz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48049
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Robin.

More likely, the Turkish police, who have now been sufficiently
incentivized to pay attention to such things, have blundered
into a sting operation. On the other hand, even if they were
Mafia they would still be released, on the presumption that
they would continue to perpetrate this fraud. Hell, I'd give
them a medal for bravery in the fight against terrorism. Like
I said, they're doing more to protect my interests than my
own government seems to be doing. If I ran the CIA I'd be
paying these people to do this fraud.

That said, it's remarkable how effective these things are
at swaying public opinion. My guess is that if you asked 100
people about this story, the majority would only remember the first
bit, 35 lbs of uranium, headed for Iraq. I read
some poll results recently that claimed some 70% of Americans
believe Saddam already has nuclear weapons.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,62861,00.html

Well, he doesn't. At least according to our own CIA.
He's trying to get them, which is a real issue, but
he doesn't have them. So why do 70% of Americans believe
something which most knowledgeable people in the field say
isn't the case? The magic of Spin, Robin. That and the
fact that few people can follow a narrative over any
length of time. So in that sense, I agree with you,
stuff like this can be spun to sway public opinion.

By the way, now that we have an international policy
of pre-emptive first strike, can we change the
name of the Department of Defense to the Department
of Offense, to better reflect our new stance? (smile).

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au]
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:05 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Weapons-grade uranium headed to Iraq


In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Mon, 30 Sep 2002 23:21:54 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]

...and you don't find "The two men arrested with the material were released
due to lack of evidence and have since disappeared, Dilek said." at all
suspicious?

My take: They have done their job, and they have now been sent home.
Russian mafia don't generally call ahead to the Turkish police to tell them
where to look. It isn't a good way to keep your clients. OTOH someone
setting up a public relations stunt does exactly that.
Speculation on a possible fraud by an ex UN official maintains plausible
deniability.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

>Well well well.
>
>We went from 35 pounds, to 5 ounces.
>
>Now, it's revealed to be zinc.
>
>The phony uranium scam has been going on since the collapse
>of the SU, and much like the nigerian scam, continues to
>suck people in. It's just wonderfully ironic that the primary
>force standing between nuclear terrorists and a smoldering
>hole where my house was, is the Russian Mafia. That, and
>some clever european spooks who also run these scams to catch
>buyers.
>
>Actually, if you want to know where Saddam shops when he's
>in the mood for mass extermination with bio and chem weapons,
>look no further than the USA.
>
>http://www.suntimes.com/output/novak/cst-edt-novak26.html
>
>Plus, we provided satellite imaging and battle planning
>for rapid deployment of those same weapons.
>
>http://www.msnbc.com/news/807688.asp
>
>
>K.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Robin van Spaandonk [mailto:rvanspaa bigpond.net.au]
>Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 7:27 PM
>To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Weapons-grade uranium headed to Iraq
>
>
>In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Sat, 28 Sep 2002 18:56:55 -0400:
>Hi,
>[snip]
>>What is truly interesting is that the article claims that the U came
>>from a "Eastern European Country:"
>>
>>But if you look carerully on the bottom left of the ingot (you need the
>>enlarged image or the one presently on drudgereport.com), it clearly
>>says "Made in W Germany."  WTF is going on here?
>>
>>Terry
>
>It's clearly a plant designed to both build a case for military
>intervention,
>and concurrently put the blame on Germany, as retaliation for being such a
>vocal opponent. In fact it may not even be weapons grade uranium, just
>something that looks the part, and conveniently gets that label stuck on it
>for the sake of the press (corrupt officials are not unknown in Turkey ;).
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Robin van Spaandonk
>
>http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
>Competition provides the motivation,
>Cooperation provides the means.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  1 11:31:45 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA07711;
	Tue, 1 Oct 2002 11:25:26 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 11:25:26 -0700
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 11:22:55 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Weapons-grade uranium headed to Iraq
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
Message-id: <002901c26977$902406a0$0a016ea8 cpq>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMEHNDFAA.knagel gis.net>
Resent-Message-ID: <"2UyVW.0.Bu1.LYUcz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48050
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

The following possibility was mentioned earlier by Robin or Keith in this
curiously unfolding - and under-documented - story ( but if you haven't read
DRUDGE this comment probably won't mean much):

> More likely, the Turkish police...have blundered into a sting operation...

But there is at least one other rather far-out possibility to consider  ;--}

1) Let's say the purveyors of the item in question, whether they be
mafia-connected, CIA-duped, or just some unknown entrepreneur's patsies, indeed
expected to be paid $5 million for the item  - thus implying that a sale had
been pre-aranged upon delivery in Syria or Iraq.

2) Let's say the carriers were "fronted" the item (i.e. it has little actual
cost/intrinsic value except to a particular client) and that the parties
concocted the  "youranuom" as a cover story...  and/or to keep associates from
handling or trying to steal it, and/or... if they have a good sense of the
ridiculous, in order to get a good laugh should they be exposed, i.e. as in
stick it up Uranus...

3) Let's say the scientists at Turkey's Nuclear Research were not covering up
something when they said on Tuesday morning that the substance was not uranium
and was not radioactive. "It is a powder of zinc, manganese, iron and
zirconium," Guler Koksal, director of the research facility told Reuters.

Furthermore, we can be pretty sure that if it were really fissile material, even
5 ounces, the $5 mm price would have been a huge bargain for a certain oil-rich
despot and few Turks are going to risk arrest for him and nobody in their right
mind  is going to offer any bargains to this nut-case in the first place ; PLUS,
does it really make any sense that any buyer, no matter how desperate for
fissile material, would buy it without even testing it for radioactivity?

Of course not.

We must conclude: Everyone involved knew it was not fissile material and not
illegal to transport...but wanted to consummate the deal anyway.

... therefore, we can conclude hypothetically that it was "worth" 5 million to
the buyer...

If so, what then could the mystery material "youranuom" really be?

I could get in big trouble for even making this wild guess but could old Guler
have inadvertently blurted out to the world the secret formula for "red
mercury"?

You didn't hear it from me....

Ferris F. Fremount


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  1 12:12:20 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA29284;
	Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:07:50 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:07:50 -0700
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "Jones Beene" <jonesb9@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: Weapons-grade uranium headed to Iraq
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:22:35 -0400
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMEHODFAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Importance: Normal
In-Reply-To: <002901c26977$902406a0$0a016ea8 cpq>
Resent-Message-ID: <"vjhZ73.0.N97.5AVcz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48051
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Jones.

Geeze, you sign your name FFF but really it should read
Horselover Fats! As he sez, theories are like airplanes,
a new one comes in every hour...

Here's some facts to consider.

Actual significant smuggling events.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/1205/p11s1-wogi.htm

A good backgrounder on the issue
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nukes/

Note that German Intelligence has made serious efforts
in regards to phony buy operations. Maybe there's
the fit for your "made in West Germany" bit of
detective work?

Oh yeah, and seeings as how the real Ferris Fremont
is doing some serious rewriting of history these
days, here's a timeline of events regarding our
relations with the Axis of Evil.
http://www.cam.ac.uk/societies/casi/info/usdocs/usiraq80s90s.html

Red Mercury???? Come on Jones, Occams razor ain't
only for shaving.... Typical of the Seller Sting/Fraud
I was mentioning is to dope or coat a base metal with a
small quantity of whatever hot material they can lay
their hands on. Or not, if the deal is for the entire
quantity and the Seller can lure the Buyer into
bringing the money with them for a swap. The drug
culture had a phrase that adequately summed up
this dilemma, "Know Your Dealer".

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:23 PM
To: vortex
Cc: Keith Nagel
Subject: Re: Weapons-grade uranium headed to Iraq


The following possibility was mentioned earlier by Robin or Keith in this
curiously unfolding - and under-documented - story ( but if you haven't read
DRUDGE this comment probably won't mean much):

> More likely, the Turkish police...have blundered into a sting operation...

But there is at least one other rather far-out possibility to consider  ;--}

1) Let's say the purveyors of the item in question, whether they be
mafia-connected, CIA-duped, or just some unknown entrepreneur's patsies,
indeed
expected to be paid $5 million for the item  - thus implying that a sale had
been pre-aranged upon delivery in Syria or Iraq.

2) Let's say the carriers were "fronted" the item (i.e. it has little actual
cost/intrinsic value except to a particular client) and that the parties
concocted the  "youranuom" as a cover story...  and/or to keep associates
from
handling or trying to steal it, and/or... if they have a good sense of the
ridiculous, in order to get a good laugh should they be exposed, i.e. as in
stick it up Uranus...

3) Let's say the scientists at Turkey's Nuclear Research were not covering
up
something when they said on Tuesday morning that the substance was not
uranium
and was not radioactive. "It is a powder of zinc, manganese, iron and
zirconium," Guler Koksal, director of the research facility told Reuters.

Furthermore, we can be pretty sure that if it were really fissile material,
even
5 ounces, the $5 mm price would have been a huge bargain for a certain
oil-rich
despot and few Turks are going to risk arrest for him and nobody in their
right
mind  is going to offer any bargains to this nut-case in the first place ;
PLUS,
does it really make any sense that any buyer, no matter how desperate for
fissile material, would buy it without even testing it for radioactivity?

Of course not.

We must conclude: Everyone involved knew it was not fissile material and not
illegal to transport...but wanted to consummate the deal anyway.

... therefore, we can conclude hypothetically that it was "worth" 5 million
to
the buyer...

If so, what then could the mystery material "youranuom" really be?

I could get in big trouble for even making this wild guess but could old
Guler
have inadvertently blurted out to the world the secret formula for "red
mercury"?

You didn't hear it from me....

Ferris F. Fremount



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  1 13:11:10 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA26851;
	Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:07:24 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:07:24 -0700
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Weapons-grade uranium headed to Iraq
X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report
X-AntiAbuse: ID = dcf35902a696aec8ab4a512a7c111b8b
Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com
From: "Michael Foster" <michael.foster excite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com
X-Mailer: PHP
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-Id: <20021001200641.D5899F65E xmxpita.excite.com>
Date: Tue,  1 Oct 2002 16:06:41 -0400 (EDT)
Resent-Message-ID: <"Wi3Nm.0.OZ6.y1Wcz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48052
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


If we believe what the Turkish government said about the composition of the fake Uranium, i.e., that "It is a powder of zinc, manganese, iron and zirconium", then it is likely that this powder would ignite spontaneously on contact with air.  The result would either be an actual explosion or a fire so hot as to melt practically any container it might be in.

It's rather hard to figure out what the perpetrators had in mind here. Injury to the buyer?  Auto-destruction of the evidence?  Maybe they thought the buyer would assume some sort of nuclear melt-down.

M.

------------------------------------------------
Changed your e-mail?  Keep your contacts!  Use this free e-mail change of address service from Return Path.  Register now!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  1 15:09:11 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA19079;
	Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:03:33 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:03:33 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Weapons-grade uranium headed to Iraq
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 08:02:47 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <v65kpus16lfrjpag9g566tp0atvi4v86jc 4ax.com>
References: <llaipuole8rag3gc1vmo8mna7c8c8uut88 4ax.com> <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMEHNDFAA.knagel@gis.net>
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMEHNDFAA.knagel gis.net>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA18983
Resent-Message-ID: <"Zw92m3.0.0g4.qkXcz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48053
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Tue, 1 Oct 2002 12:09:00 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>own government seems to be doing. If I ran the CIA I'd be
>paying these people to do this fraud.

Heh, isn't that what I just said? ;)

>
>That said, it's remarkable how effective these things are
>at swaying public opinion. 

No, it isn't remarkable at all, unfortunately.

>My guess is that if you asked 100
>people about this story, the majority would only remember the first
>bit, 35 lbs of uranium, headed for Iraq.

Not surprising, it was splashed all over our "international" news, but the follow up wasn't. Now what does that tell you about sensationalistic reporting, which the spin doctors play right into?

> I read
>some poll results recently that claimed some 70% of Americans
>believe Saddam already has nuclear weapons.


I suspect he does, however I can assure you that his paltry "stockpile" (if he has one) doesn't worry me anywhere near as much as the vast US stockpile in the hands of GB.

>
>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,62861,00.html

Quote:
"The level of support for taking action clearly depends on the credibility of the threat that the public think he poses," comments Opinion Dynamics President John Gorman. "As the administration tries to make its case to the allies, it will also have to reinforce the belief among Americans that there is a need for action based on real danger. If this perception is diminished, data suggest that support will drop as well."

[enter a couple of turkeys "caught" in Turkey, stage left].

>
>Well, he doesn't. At least according to our own CIA.
>He's trying to get them, which is a real issue, but
>he doesn't have them. So why do 70% of Americans believe
>something which most knowledgeable people in the field say
>isn't the case? The magic of Spin, Robin. That and the
>fact that few people can follow a narrative over any
>length of time. So in that sense, I agree with you,
>stuff like this can be spun to sway public opinion.

It can also be manufactured to sway public opinion.

>
>By the way, now that we have an international policy
>of pre-emptive first strike, can we change the
>name of the Department of Defense to the Department
>of Offense, to better reflect our new stance? (smile).

How about "Ministry of Peace"? ;)

BTW if the US is truly worried about being attacked by Sadam, simply lift the sanctions, then he would have no reason to use such weapons, even if he did have them.
OTOH, if oil is the real reason behind this little stage show, then the US
administration will never accept any solution to the problem that doesn't involve US interests getting their hands on the profits from Iraqi oil.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  1 15:16:07 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA24313;
	Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:13:29 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:13:29 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Weapons-grade uranium headed to Iraq
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 08:12:52 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <197kpuk59ak2ifouhcod1ltp43o4ajn9ch 4ax.com>
References: <20021001200641.D5899F65E xmxpita.excite.com>
In-Reply-To: <20021001200641.D5899F65E xmxpita.excite.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA24276
Resent-Message-ID: <"F85OZ3.0.lx5.8uXcz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48054
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Michael Foster's message of Tue,  1 Oct 2002 16:06:41 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]

>
>If we believe what the Turkish government said about the composition of the fake Uranium, i.e., that "It is a powder of zinc, manganese, iron and zirconium", then it is likely that this powder would ignite spontaneously on contact with air.  
[snip]
AFAIK, only the alkali metals ignite spontaneously, and even then, only in contact with water.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  1 16:19:46 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA21129;
	Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:17:48 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:17:48 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Weapons-grade uranium headed to Iraq
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 09:17:08 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <65bkpu02iidc7pf6ghlg6fhq306n4heojf 4ax.com>
References: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMEHNDFAA.knagel gis.net> <002901c26977$902406a0$0a016ea8@cpq>
In-Reply-To: <002901c26977$902406a0$0a016ea8 cpq>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA20879
Resent-Message-ID: <"pYlsi.0.-95.RqYcz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48055
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Tue, 01 Oct 2002 11:22:55 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]

>If so, what then could the mystery material "youranuom" really be?
                                              ^^^^^^^^^
I've searched high and low. Where does this reference come from?
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  1 16:29:54 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA26812;
	Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:27:25 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:27:25 -0700
Message-ID: <3D9A2FA6.9C048CE8 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 02:28:38 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Reply-To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Press Release - Z Prize Announced!
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"CeQwe2.0.sY6.SzYcz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48056
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Original message attached.

I think this a good chance for real inventors who needs some money. They would no longer need for sponsors then after.  $1M help lot for the reseach or for the funeral expenses. :)

Regards,

hamdi ucar

---------

This email is being sent to the Disclosure Project Updates email list, 
and is intended only for those who have signed up for the list. If you 
wish to be removed, please reply to this email with REMOVE in the subject.
For more information, please visit the Disclosure Project web site at: 
www.disclosureproject.org and the SEAS web site: www.seaspower.com



PRESS RELEASE - September 30, 2002

COMPANY ANNOUNCES $1 MILLION ENERGY PRIZE

Apply at http://www.SeasPower.com/zprizeannounced.htm

Space Energy Access Systems, Inc. (SEAS) has announced the one million 
dollar "Z Prize" for an energy invention that would dramatically 
decrease the need for fossil fuels.

The Charlottesville, VA based energy company will provide the $1 million 
prize to the inventor or inventors who provide a testable prototype of 
an invention that can serve to either replace current internal 
combustion energy systems or greatly increase their efficiency. The Z 
Prize is named after the so-called zero point energy field that many 
physicists claim is a vast field of energy that can be tapped from the 
space around an object.

Specifically, the company is looking for new energy systems that could 
allow each home or business to have its own energy generation capability 
without the use of fossil fuels and a system for greatly increasing the 
fuel efficiency of motor vehicles. The winning invention must be 
reproducible, economically viable and suitable to widespread acceptance.

Steven M. Greer MD, the CEO of SEAS. states that: "We know such 
breakthroughs in energy generation have occurred in the past, only to be 
suppressed by a number of questionable means. This time, we are 
committed to identifying and bringing to the public the most advanced 
systems to replace our addiction to oil and fossil fuels."

SEAS has a Technical Advisory Board comprised of prominent scientists 
and engineers.

Inventors may visit the SEAS Inc. website at: 
http://www.SeasPower.com/zprizeannounced.htm and complete an 
application. Submissions must be received by December 1, 2002 and the 
prize will be determined by December 31, 2002, unless the company 
determines that the contest needs to be extended.

NOTE: THIS PRESS RELEASE MAY BE FORWARDED TO ANY INTERESTED PARTY, OR 
POSTED AT ANY WEB SITE.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  1 16:48:14 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA03606;
	Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:44:35 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 16:44:35 -0700
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 16:42:02 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Weapons-grade uranium headed to Iraq
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <007d01c269a4$245ca6c0$0a016ea8 cpq>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMEHNDFAA.knagel gis.net>
 <002901c26977$902406a0$0a016ea8 cpq>
 <65bkpu02iidc7pf6ghlg6fhq306n4heojf 4ax.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"Ig2Ik2.0.6u.YDZcz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48057
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


> >If so, what then could the mystery material "youranuom" really be?
>                                               ^^^^^^^^^
> I've searched high and low. Where does this reference come from?


http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=worldnews&StoryID=1518792

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  1 18:04:00 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA07106;
	Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:02:16 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:02:16 -0700
Message-ID: <3D9A45BF.8080102 rtpatlanta.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2002 21:02:55 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Weapons-grade uranium headed to Iraq
References: <llaipuole8rag3gc1vmo8mna7c8c8uut88 4ax.com> <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMEHNDFAA.knagel@gis.net> <v65kpus16lfrjpag9g566tp0atvi4v86jc@4ax.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"kVNl_3.0.qk1.OMacz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48058
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>BTW if the US is truly worried about being attacked by Sadam, simply lift the sanctions, then he would have no reason to use such weapons, even if he did have them.
>

I think this trivializes the situation.  Hussein believes himself to be 
the reincarnation of Nebuchadnezzar and intends to prove it.  What did 
Neb do to Israel?

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  1 18:43:55 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA25589;
	Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:41:42 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 18:41:42 -0700
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Weapons-grade uranium headed to Iraq
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 19:56:45 -0400
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMEIADFAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Importance: Normal
In-Reply-To: <v65kpus16lfrjpag9g566tp0atvi4v86jc 4ax.com>
X-Rcpt-To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"F2-ar1.0.lF6.Mxacz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48059
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Robin.

Quote:
"The level of support for taking action clearly depends on the credibility
of the threat that the public think he poses," comments Opinion Dynamics
President John Gorman. "As the administration tries to make its case to the
allies, it will also have to reinforce the belief among Americans that there
is a need for action based on real danger. If this perception is diminished,
data suggest that support will drop as well."

Good point, but this doesn't require fancy CIA plots.
All that is necessary is for Dub to get up and say,
"Saddam hussein has green kryptonite! And is 6 months
away from a functioning Death Star!" The press corps
coughs and chuckles, these statements are duely recorded,
and a majority of Americans vote Republican in the
midterm elections and go back to watching "Friends" reruns.

You don't really understand life here in America,
do you Robin?

>OTOH, if oil is the real reason behind this little
>stage show, then the US adinistration will never accept
>any solution to the problem that doesn't involve US interests
>getting their hands on the profits from Iraqi oil.

Well, in the short term, it's all about the midterm elections.
Currently, the Republicans control the House, the executive
branch, and the Supreme court. The Senate is one senator
away from being Republican. Suffice it to say, we're going
to be hearing a lot about war until after the midterms.

In the long term, yes it's about the oil. These folks REALLY
want that oil. And if all this seems to be off topic for
vortex, lets talk further on that issue. Energy issues have
been the driving force in the administration, and as
alt-energy researchers it bears our paying close attention to.

K.

PS: My apologies to my more Republican friends out there
in vortex land, if I sound too harsh on the party. But I think
before we all drink the kool-aid we need to actually begin
discussing some of these issues. This isn't a blow job in
the White House, this is 10's of thousands of people dying
and what remains of regional stability in the middle east
destroyed. The blowback from removing Saddams return address
will be creating another Osama Bin Ladin, and one's plenty
thanks very much. And by the way, he still seems to be out there, in
case anyones forgotten. Remember him, the guy that actually
does attack our cities???? Can we please kill him first????

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  1 20:28:41 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA12185;
	Tue, 1 Oct 2002 20:27:15 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 20:27:15 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Weapons-grade uranium headed to Iraq
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 13:26:41 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <bdpkpu4rogb6k4en3fs9mfcdu2bqsdlddg 4ax.com>
References: <llaipuole8rag3gc1vmo8mna7c8c8uut88 4ax.com> <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMEHNDFAA.knagel@gis.net> <v65kpus16lfrjpag9g566tp0atvi4v86jc@4ax.com> <3D9A45BF.8080102@rtpatlanta.com>
In-Reply-To: <3D9A45BF.8080102 rtpatlanta.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA12141
Resent-Message-ID: <"iOC392.0.J-2.JUccz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48060
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Tue, 01 Oct 2002 21:02:55 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>I think this trivializes the situation.  Hussein believes himself to be 
>the reincarnation of Nebuchadnezzar and intends to prove it.  

This may be true, but I doubt it. It sounds more like CIA propaganda to me.

>What did 
>Neb do to Israel?

If Israel, was prepared to accept an equitable settlement with the Palestinians, he would also have no cause to intervene there either.
It doesn't get much press coverage, but note that every time "peace"
breaks out in Israel/Palestine (i.e. there is a cessation of suicide bombings), it is Israel that starts with another provocative action.
Enough to give the impression that Israel doesn't really want peace,
or at least not a peace where the Palestinians have any of the West Bank.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  1 23:21:43 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA19612;
	Tue, 1 Oct 2002 23:21:00 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 23:21:00 -0700
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05111b0fb9c0228d90f8 [209.23.136.38]>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 01:20:56 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Parksie's latest comments
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"OZWgo.0.Lo4.B1fcz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48061
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Fellow Vortexians;

I am hoping that some of you people will review this for accuracy. 
Yesterday I heard the old boy interviewed on Michigan Public Radio, 
an affiliate of National Peoples Radio.

Todd Mundt

Dear Mr. Mundt;

      I enjoy listening to your program on WOI AM. I'm writing to give 
you the other side of the story which you addressed in your interview 
with Robert Park. Dr. Park is one of a group of people who are 
dedicated to stopping the paradigm revolution in physics, just as my 
friends and I are similarly dedicated to bringing it about. Part of 
this effort involves appointing the dullest PhD candidates to 
teaching positions, and discouraging PhD candidates who ask too many 
questions from pursuing a doctorate. Dr. Park uses the bully pulpit 
which his position at the American Physical Society, APS, gives him 
to denigrate experimental results which don't fit with this paradigm.

      I recently told him about an over unity device which was 
demonstrated last month by Carl Tilley, www.tilleyfoundation.com . 
Mr. Tilley has refused my suggestion, that he heat water, which would 
have settled the matter. However, his electrified DeLorean, which 
according to the motor manufacturer should have a range of sixty 
miles before discharging the batteries, went eighty nine miles and 
the batteries tested fully charged. Never the less, Dr. Park 
dismissed his results as "lubricating the bearings with snake oil."

      During your interview Dr. Park mentioned the second law of 
thermodynamics which no one, with the exception of God, has been able 
to reverse. He failed to mention cohering the energy of the vacuum, 
and the physical theory which addresses this might be possible. The 
physicist Hal Puthoff has co-authored a series of articles which were 
published in the Physical Review which addressed this matter. 
Physical Review is a publication of the APS, and articles which are 
published in it are subject to peer review. This line of physical 
theory goes back to the Nobel Laureate, Paul A M Dirac who coined the 
word zitterenbewung as a name for this energy. For a discussion of 
this matter see Harold Aspden's website at www.energyscience.co.uk .

      Starting with the Ponds and Fleishman experiment, various 
researchers have been producing low energy nuclear reactions, LENR, 
see www.lenr.org . Dr. Park mentioned the lack of helium production 
as proof of the lack of LENR's, which is a lie, and he knows it. 
Various researchers have produced both helium three and tritium, both 
rare isotopes. Further proof of LENR's is anomalous isotopic ratios, 
in the metallic electrodes. Dr. Park's reaction to these ratios was 
"I don't care about your isotopic ratios." You have heard the 
expression, my mind is made up, please stop trying to  confuse me 
with your experimental results?

      Then there is the matter of energy medicine. Dr. Park knows as 
much about energy medicine as a pig knows about Easter. Energy 
medicine includes the healing regimens of acupuncture, reike and 
homeopathy. The efficacy of acupuncture is attested too, by it's 
adoption by conventional medicine. I have personally been healed of 
water on the elbow by a homeopathic remedy. I doubt that there are 
any double blind studies proving that these remedies work, that is 
because these studies cost big money and there is no money in 
homeopathy. The fact that this regimen has persisted for the past 
three hundred years, in spite of opposition by the allopathic medical 
establishment, ought to tell you something. Dr. Park also likes to 
attack the use of herbs in healing. This in spite of a long history 
of their medicinal use, and modern pharmaceutical technology having 
grown out of this healing regimen. He has also dared to attack our 
hard won right to purchase what ever herbal remedy we want. In my 
humble opinion, this grows out of his knowing which side of the bread 
the butter is on when it comes to the pharmaceutical industry.

      Finally I want to address the need for a new paradigm to replace 
the now obsolete Newton Mechanical / General Relativity model. Two 
researchers, Jim Cox and Robert Cook have claimed to have built 
reactionless drives. See www.forceborne.com . According to Hal 
Puthoff, one of Cook's experiments proves unidirectional motion 
production. This contradicts Newton's Third Law of Motion. In his 
book, The Man Who Invented The Future, Mr. Cook addresses the 
ramifications of this matter in detail.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  2 07:22:06 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA03890;
	Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:21:07 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:21:07 -0700
Message-Id: <4.3.1.20021002144329.00bde100 pop3.newnet.co.uk>
X-Sender: lawrence pop3.newnet.co.uk
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 14:49:20 +0100
To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Stephen Lawrence <stephen lawrence.newnet.co.uk>
Subject: Lifters, Plastic Bags and Ion Wind tests
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"0TcFj2.0.by.I3mcz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48062
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

DEar 'texians,

I'd like to do a simple ion-wind test on my "lifter" craft.  I've got 30kV 
DC.  I have a thin plastic bag.  I'm minded to wrap the lifter in the 
plastic bag (wires poking out through holes) and see whether it still 
lifts, or to what extent it does.  BUT

What is the effect of 30kV on the plastic Bag?  Will it burn, etc?  Would 
it have high enough resistance?  Can anyone think of another suitably 
ultra-light high resistance wrapping material to try?  Tissue paper?

Answers/Suggestions gratefully received.

Thanks, Stephen Lawrence.
From: Stephen Lawrence, 8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, 
CB4 3LB.  Tel/Fax +44 1223 564373

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  2 07:23:03 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA04304;
	Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:21:52 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:21:52 -0700
Message-ID: <3D9B016D.5080009 rtpatlanta.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 10:23:41 -0400
From: "Terry Blanton" <blantont rtpatlanta.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Weapons-grade uranium headed to Iraq
References: <llaipuole8rag3gc1vmo8mna7c8c8uut88 4ax.com> <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMEHNDFAA.knagel@gis.net> <v65kpus16lfrjpag9g566tp0atvi4v86jc@4ax.com> <3D9A45BF.8080102@rtpatlanta.com> <bdpkpu4rogb6k4en3fs9mfcdu2bqsdlddg@4ax.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"eBnFt3.0.531.-3mcz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48063
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>This may be true, but I doubt it. It sounds more like CIA propaganda to me.
>

If it's propaganda, the CIA has never done such an excellent job:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Nebuchadnezzar+hussein

>If Israel, was prepared to accept an equitable settlement with the Palestinians, he would also have no cause to intervene there either.
>

Equitable settlement???  My God man!  Are you not aware of what Arafat 
was offered???  Netanyahu offered him 95% of Arafat's demands but he 
would not compromise.  Arafat wants nothing less than the destruction of 
the State of Israel.  Same goal as Hussein.  

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  2 10:16:42 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA19743;
	Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:56:36 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 09:56:36 -0700
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 09:54:09 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: ZPE "pumping" proposal
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: puthoff aol.com, Frederick Sparber <fjsparber@earthlink.net>
Message-id: <003301c26a34$54198f00$0a016ea8 cpq>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0030_01C269F9.A72B4840"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"GD8jC3.0.Lq4.4Locz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48064
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C269F9.A72B4840
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greetings,

At first glance, ferromagnetism and superconductivity appear to be =
incompatible - not just incompatible but radically hostile to each =
other. But like so many things in nature, traditional expectation can =
blind one to the truth.=20

Recently, an alloy of Zinc and Zirconium, ZrZn2, has been identified, =
which at low temperatures is both superconductive and ferromagnetic - at =
the same time!=20

Plus, these two metals are both plentiful, cheap and most importantly, =
can be electroplated or sputtered with precision in nanolayers - and (it =
is hoped but unproven) then alloyed in situ at the precise ratio.

Does this strange new material open up an avenue for attaining the Holy =
Grail of free energy research, the ZPE pump?

The following idea jolted me out of a deep sleep this morning, so it is =
both fresh baked and half-baked, nevertheless I'd like to throw it out =
to interested parties for comment and ultimately in hopes that someone =
with cryogenic equipment, a decent bankroll, and some imagination will =
possibly pick it up for experimentation.

Most readers of this forum are familiar with Dr. Puthoff and his =
theoretical studies of the Casimir effect and "Extracting Energy and =
Heat from the Vacuum." I won't get into the details of that body of work =
except to say that the Casimir effect has been actually demonstrated, so =
it is far beyond "just" theory. Although often called an "attractive =
force" the Casimir effect is an EM interaction initiated by photons. =
Particles other than photons can contribute an additional reinforcement =
or cancellation effect but only the photon energy seems to be =
"extractable." If electromagnetism was super-symmetric there would be =
fermionic effects that would exactly cancel out the photon effects and =
there would be no Casimir effect. The fact that the Casimir effect =
exists at all shows us that if supersymmetry exists in nature, it must =
be a broken symmetry at small distances; AND furthermore, we are finding =
out that such distances are in the range of advanced high volume =
nano-manufacturing techniques such as precision electroplating and =
sputtering.

In short, the Casimir force is a quantum effect, and although it is a =
tiny interfacial effect that exists in a nearly two dimensional world, =
there exists certain present day nano-manufacturing techniques derived =
from the semiconductor industry that are allowing us to envision the =
fast-approaching time frame when we will have the ability to efficiently =
create vast overlapping surface areas (in almost 2D) that will =
ultimately permit such tiny quantum effects to be multiplied enormously. =


A certain synergy can be derived from this also, if and when those same =
manufacturing techniques allow for the creation of difficult metal =
alloys such as ZrZn2 to be applied with great precision in a layered =
fashion as separate layers in sequence. When you plate multiple layers =
onto, say, a cylinder that has a surface area of 100cm^2 and each layer =
is only a few dozen atoms thick, but there are hundreds of thousands of =
layers, then even if you are able to extract only a few microwatts per =
cm^2, you can wind up with useful output due to the enormous surface =
area in play.

OK. I hope this is enough preliminary information to set the stage for =
the core of this idea which is (hypothetically):

When a normal superconductor is juxtaposed next to a ferromagnetic =
superconductor (separated by an insulator) in a layered mutually =
inductive spatial arrangement where Casimir photons could impart a =
quantum EM input, then a self perpetuating oscillation between the two =
layers can be envisioned to be set in motion involving substantial local =
currents. This oscillation should occur around the "quantum critical =
point" that "gray area if imbalance where ferromagnetism and =
anti-ferromagnetism collide to induce and cancel currents though =
crossed-field effects.

I will propose an actual experimental device, but first here are a =
couple of paragraphs of background on the facilitating material, the =
amazing 2:1 alloy of Zinc and Zirconium. Most of this background =
information is paraphrased or quoted from web sources, such as:
http://www.physicstoday.org/pt/vol-54/iss-9/p16.html

You wouldn't normally expect superconductivity in a ferromagnetic =
material because internal fields would tend to twist apart the necessary =
Cooper pairs whose bonded spins are antiparallel, such as the s-wave =
pairs in conventional superconductors and the d-wave pairs in high-Tc =
superconductors. Not only that, all superconductors, regardless of =
pairing symmetry, expel strong self-induced magnetic fields - the =
anti-ferromagnetic effect.=20

"So it was a surprise when Gil Lonzarich's group at Cambridge University =
and their collaborators at Grenoble's Atomic Energy Commissariat =
discovered last year that an alloy of uranium and germanium exhibited =
superconductivity and ferromagnetism simultaneously. Now, a team led by =
Christian Pfleiderer of the University of Karlsruhe has found a second =
ferromagnetic superconductor: an alloy of zirconium and zinc, ZrZn2."

THE PROPOSED EXPERIMENTAL DEVICE

Imagine a cylindrical dewar of plastic or ceramic (kind of like a =
Starbucks insulated mug) - outside of this cylinder will be wound a =
solenoid coil of normal copper mag-wire. This coil will serve to power =
an external load and thereby extract whatever free-energy can be induced =
into it from EM oscillations set-up within the dewar itself.

The dewar will be filled with liquid helium. It is hoped but cannot be =
proven that the ZPE extraction process itself will maintain a low =
temperature, insofar as cryogenic cooling to liquid helium temps is =
large parasitic drain on the system. There is some evidence that ZPE =
extraction involves this self-cooling but if not,  the energy density =
available for extraction might be adequate for the task; nevertheless, a =
level of about 25 degrees K. cannot be exceeded.

Inside the dewar is the "primary," which is not a coil, per se, but a =
multilayered cylinder, constructed as follows: The envisioned device =
functions by placing a multitude of concentric cylindrical nano-layers =
of a normal superconductor (Lead would probably be the cheapest =
electroplatable SC) separated by an insulator and then the ferromagnetic =
superconductor layer, insulator, and then repeat the layering sequence =
ad infinitum. All layers are exceedingly thin. i.e. quasi 2D.

The layers are formed around either a permanent magnet or a low =
hysteresis core. It is hoped that when the normal superconductor (SC) is =
juxtaposed to a ferromagnetic superconductor (FSC) in a layered =
inductive arrangement, then a self perpetuating oscillation between the =
two can be set in motion by ZPE fluctuations that are "ordered" into =
substantial currents and that an overall resonant frequency of =
oscillation will emerge which is both regular and not too high to create =
substantial heating or other problems.=20

This oscillation should occur around the "quantum critical point" that =
"gray area where ferromagnetism and induced anti-ferromagnetism interact =
unpredictably. For instance, a clockwise current in a normal =
superconductive layer would induce a counterclockwise current in the FSC =
layer but then increasing magnetic field of that layer should nullify =
the instigating field. These local fields oscillations could then be =
captured directly by the exterior coil or used to alter the larger field =
of a permanent magnetic core of NIB, and then that magnified oscillating =
field would induce current in the exterior windings to drive a load.

An immediate question arises as to why do you need a SC layer set =
against an FSC layer? Wouldn't any homogenous layering of either =
material suffice so long as Casimir photons are available as an ultimate =
energy source, since self-induced magnetic fields in any SC can perhaps =
be engineered to quench each other's current flow.=20

In truth, I cannot say exactly why two different layers, a SC and a FSC  =
would be absolutely needed except by analogy with other nonSC electrical =
systems with which I have experimented where electrical fields are =
crossed with induced magnetic fields (and the instability inherent in =
them) in order to accomplish an "ordered resonance," as in a tank =
circuit. It would seem that one would need to engineer a system that is =
just at the edge of imbalance at the quantum level in order to "pump" =
Casimir photons from the ZPF and that that such an "edge" becomes far =
sharper when the SC and FSC mutually  interact..

Of course, it goes without saying that in looking at the overall system, =
unless a bulk magnetic field can be predictably altered over time, then =
no useful energy could be extracted from such a device, even if large =
internal currents are set up. You might get a nice magnet, but what we =
want is a nice self-powered transformer.

As mentioned at the outset, this idea is new and admittedly half-baked =
at present. My apologies if I have missed some obvious error that would =
keep it from going any further.

Comments appreciated.

Jones Beene




------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C269F9.A72B4840
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; =
MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial
}
</STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4916.2300" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Greetings,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>At first glance, ferromagnetism and superconductivity appear to be=20
incompatible - not just incompatible but radically hostile to each =
other. But=20
like so many things in nature, traditional expectation can blind one to =
the=20
truth. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Recently, an alloy of Zinc and Zirconium, ZrZn2, has been =
identified, which=20
at low temperatures is both superconductive and ferromagnetic - at the =
same=20
time! </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Plus, these two metals are both&nbsp;plentiful, cheap and most =
importantly,=20
can be electroplated or sputtered with precision in nanolayers =
-&nbsp;and (it is=20
hoped but unproven) then alloyed in situ&nbsp;at the precise =
ratio.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Does this strange new material open up an avenue for attaining the =
Holy=20
Grail of free energy research,&nbsp;the ZPE pump?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The following idea jolted me out of a deep sleep this morning, so =
it is=20
both fresh baked and half-baked, nevertheless I'd like to throw it out =
to=20
interested parties for comment and ultimately in hopes that someone with =

cryogenic equipment, a decent bankroll,&nbsp;and&nbsp;some imagination =
will=20
possibly pick it up for experimentation.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Most readers of this forum are familiar with Dr. Puthoff and his=20
theoretical studies of the Casimir effect and "Extracting Energy and =
Heat from=20
the Vacuum." I won't get into the details of that body of work except to =
say=20
that the Casimir effect has been actually demonstrated, so it is far =
beyond=20
"just" theory. Although often called an "attractive force"&nbsp;the =
Casimir=20
effect&nbsp;is an EM interaction initiated by photons. Particles other =
than=20
photons can contribute an additional&nbsp;reinforcement or cancellation =
effect=20
but only the photon energy seems to be&nbsp;"extractable." If =
electromagnetism=20
was super-symmetric there would be fermionic effects that would exactly =
cancel=20
out&nbsp;the photon effects&nbsp;and there would be no Casimir effect. =
The fact=20
that the Casimir effect exists at all shows us that if supersymmetry =
exists in=20
nature, it must be a broken symmetry at small distances; AND =
furthermore, we are=20
finding out that such distances are in the range of advanced high volume =

nano-manufacturing techniques such as precision electroplating and=20
sputtering.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In short, the Casimir force is a quantum effect, and although it is =
a tiny=20
interfacial effect that exists in a nearly two dimensional world, there =
exists=20
certain present day nano-manufacturing techniques derived from the =
semiconductor=20
industry that are allowing us to envision the fast-approaching time =
frame when=20
we will have the ability to efficiently create vast overlapping surface =
areas=20
(in almost 2D) that will ultimately permit such tiny quantum effects to =
be=20
multiplied enormously. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A certain synergy can be derived from this also, if and when those =
same=20
manufacturing techniques allow for the creation of difficult metal =
alloys such=20
as ZrZn2 to be applied with great precision in a layered fashion as =
separate=20
layers in sequence. When you plate multiple layers onto, say, a cylinder =
that=20
has a surface area of 100cm^2 and each layer is only a few dozen atoms =
thick,=20
but there are hundreds of thousands of layers, then even if you are able =
to=20
extract only a few microwatts per cm^2, you can wind up with useful =
output due=20
to the enormous surface area in play.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>OK. I hope this is enough preliminary information to set the stage =
for the=20
core of this idea which is (hypothetically):</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>When a normal superconductor is juxtaposed next to a ferromagnetic=20
superconductor (separated by an insulator) in a layered mutually =
inductive=20
spatial arrangement where Casimir photons could impart a quantum&nbsp;EM =
input,=20
then a self perpetuating oscillation between the two layers can be =
envisioned to=20
be set in motion involving substantial local currents. This oscillation =
should=20
occur around the "quantum critical point" that "gray area if imbalance =
where=20
ferromagnetism and anti-ferromagnetism collide to induce and cancel =
currents=20
though crossed-field effects.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I will propose an actual experimental device, but first =
here&nbsp;are a=20
couple of paragraphs of background on the facilitating material, the =
amazing 2:1=20
alloy of Zinc and Zirconium. Most of this background&nbsp;information is =

paraphrased or quoted from web sources, such as:</DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.physicstoday.org/pt/vol-54/iss-9/p16.html">http://www.=
physicstoday.org/pt/vol-54/iss-9/p16.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>You wouldn't normally expect superconductivity in a ferromagnetic =
material=20
because internal fields would tend to twist apart the necessary Cooper =
pairs=20
whose bonded spins are antiparallel, such as the s-wave pairs in =
conventional=20
superconductors and the d-wave pairs in high-Tc superconductors. Not =
only that,=20
all superconductors, regardless of pairing symmetry, expel strong =
self-induced=20
magnetic fields - the anti-ferromagnetic effect. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"So it was a surprise when Gil Lonzarich's group at Cambridge =
University=20
and their collaborators at Grenoble's Atomic Energy Commissariat =
discovered last=20
year that an alloy of uranium and germanium exhibited superconductivity =
and=20
ferromagnetism simultaneously. Now, a team led by Christian Pfleiderer =
of the=20
University of Karlsruhe has found a second ferromagnetic superconductor: =
an=20
alloy of zirconium and zinc, ZrZn2."</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>THE PROPOSED EXPERIMENTAL DEVICE</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Imagine a cylindrical dewar of plastic or ceramic (kind of like a =
Starbucks=20
insulated mug) - outside of this cylinder will be wound a solenoid coil =
of=20
normal copper mag-wire. This coil will serve to power an =
external&nbsp;load and=20
thereby extract whatever free-energy can be induced into&nbsp;it from EM =

oscillations set-up within the dewar itself.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The dewar will be filled with liquid helium. It is hoped but cannot =
be=20
proven that the ZPE extraction process itself will maintain a low =
temperature,=20
insofar as cryogenic cooling to liquid helium temps is large parasitic =
drain on=20
the system. There is&nbsp;some evidence that&nbsp;ZPE extraction=20
involves&nbsp;this self-cooling but if not,&nbsp; the =
energy&nbsp;density=20
available for extraction might be adequate&nbsp;for the task; =
nevertheless, a=20
level of about 25 degrees K. cannot be exceeded.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Inside the dewar is the "primary," which is not a coil, per se, but =
a=20
multilayered cylinder, constructed as follows: The envisioned device =
functions=20
by placing a multitude of concentric cylindrical nano-layers of a normal =

superconductor (Lead would probably be the cheapest electroplatable SC)=20
separated by an insulator and then the ferromagnetic superconductor =
layer,=20
insulator, and then repeat the layering sequence&nbsp;ad infinitum. All =
layers=20
are exceedingly thin. i.e. quasi 2D.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The layers are formed around either a permanent magnet or a low =
hysteresis=20
core. It is hoped that when the normal superconductor (SC) is juxtaposed =
to a=20
ferromagnetic superconductor (FSC) in a layered inductive arrangement, =
then a=20
self perpetuating oscillation between the two can be set in motion by =
ZPE=20
fluctuations that are "ordered" into substantial currents and that an=20
overall&nbsp;resonant frequency of oscillation will emerge which is both =
regular=20
and not too high to create substantial heating or other =
problems.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This oscillation should occur around the "quantum critical point" =
that=20
"gray area where ferromagnetism and induced anti-ferromagnetism interact =

unpredictably.&nbsp;For instance, a&nbsp;clockwise current in a normal=20
superconductive layer would induce a counterclockwise current in =
the&nbsp;FSC=20
layer but then increasing magnetic field of that layer should nullify =
the=20
instigating field. These local fields oscillations could then be =
captured=20
directly by the exterior coil or used to alter the larger field of a =
permanent=20
magnetic&nbsp;core of NIB, and then that magnified oscillating field =
would=20
induce current in the exterior windings to drive a load.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>An immediate question arises as to why do you need a SC layer set =
against=20
an FSC layer? Wouldn't any homogenous layering of either material =
suffice so=20
long as Casimir photons are available as an ultimate energy source, =
since=20
self-induced magnetic fields in any SC can perhaps be engineered to =
quench each=20
other's current flow. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In truth, I&nbsp;cannot say exactly why two different layers, a SC =
and a=20
FSC &nbsp;would be absolutely needed except by analogy with other nonSC=20
electrical systems with which I have experimented where electrical =
fields are=20
crossed with induced magnetic&nbsp;fields (and the instability inherent =
in=20
them)&nbsp;in order&nbsp;to accomplish an "ordered resonance," as in a =
tank=20
circuit. It would seem that one would need to engineer a system that is =
just at=20
the edge of imbalance at the quantum level in order to "pump" Casimir =
photons=20
from the ZPF and that that such an "edge" becomes far sharper when the =
SC and=20
FSC mutually&nbsp; interact..</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Of course, it goes without saying that in looking at the overall =
system,=20
unless a bulk magnetic field can be predictably altered over time, then =
no=20
useful energy could be extracted from such a device, even if large =
internal=20
currents are set up. You might get a nice magnet, but what we want is a =
nice=20
self-powered transformer.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>As mentioned at the outset, this idea is new and admittedly =
half-baked at=20
present. My apologies if I have missed some obvious error that would =
keep it=20
from going any further.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Comments appreciated.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones Beene</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C269F9.A72B4840--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  2 10:34:59 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA05593;
	Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:31:02 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 10:31:02 -0700
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Lifters, Plastic Bags and Ion Wind tests
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:46:01 -0400
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMIEIEDFAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.20021002144329.00bde100 pop3.newnet.co.uk>
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Importance: Normal
X-Rcpt-To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"hy1Rs.0.GN1.Lrocz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48065
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Stephan.

I know our list moderator is a proponent of the plastic
bag test, but my gut feeling is that you'll at best get
a moderate reduction in lifter effect, even if the entire effect
is due to ions. Forget tissue paper.

30KV may be low enough to allow you to float the
lifter in mineral oil, which would provide the necessary
insulation and prevent corona formation. Boiling
the mineral oil beforehand to drive off the water
will help. Here in the states you can buy quarts of
the stuff from the pharmacy for a few dollars each.
The viscosity is obviously a problem, but the
thrust figures people have been talking about should
allow for this kind of test. Heck, you'll even get
more capacity as a side effect, which I presume is
good? Four or five quarts ought to be enough to fill
a small tank with lifter inside, apply the voltage
and see if the lifter lifts...

K.

PS: When you walk up to the counter with the oil,
roll your eyes and pat your stomach and speak
in a loud clear voice, "Boy! That double wide
beef burrito I had yesterday just isn't moving!"
They may be so grossed out that they give you
the oil just to get rid of you (grin).







-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Lawrence [mailto:stephen lawrence.newnet.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:49 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Lifters, Plastic Bags and Ion Wind tests


DEar 'texians,

I'd like to do a simple ion-wind test on my "lifter" craft.  I've got 30kV
DC.  I have a thin plastic bag.  I'm minded to wrap the lifter in the
plastic bag (wires poking out through holes) and see whether it still
lifts, or to what extent it does.  BUT

What is the effect of 30kV on the plastic Bag?  Will it burn, etc?  Would
it have high enough resistance?  Can anyone think of another suitably
ultra-light high resistance wrapping material to try?  Tissue paper?

Answers/Suggestions gratefully received.

Thanks, Stephen Lawrence.
From: Stephen Lawrence, 8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England,
CB4 3LB.  Tel/Fax +44 1223 564373


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  2 11:33:59 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA10367;
	Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:29:09 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:29:09 -0700
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:29:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com, Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com>, harti@harti.com
Subject:  Lifters, Plastic Bags and Ion Wind tests
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMIEIEDFAA.knagel gis.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021002135315.26965A-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"_EPp61.0.uX2.rhpcz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48066
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	NOTE:	I have met some greater or lesser degrees of resistance
		  in attempting to convey information about the tests
		  described below.

	DEAR Stefan Hartmann ...will you please post this to the lifter
		group?	Thanks,	JH

	Dear People,

	There are two very simple primary tests that may be easily
conducted to help understand if it is possible to operate the "lifter" in
an artifact reduced manner which rules out several mechanisms of
propulsion,
thrust, lift and so on: 

	1]	Block the movement of air:

		(A)	Use a light weight rigid high dielectric,
transparent is preferred to block the air movement.
		(B)	Thin sheets of 1 to 5 mil cellulose acetate, of
the type used to make overhead transparencies may be used and these may be
fastended to gether with wide clear packing tape and framework can be made
with plastic soda straws.  
		(C)	It is desirable to make sure there is a 3 to 4
inch spacing between all sides of the "lifter" and the Air Block.
	Air Block will be abbreviated as AB.
		(D)	Make sure the air block is physically connected
to the lifter with the 3 to 4 inch spacing so the lifter will lift the AB
and the spacing will be maintained.  
	IMPORTANT:	The spacing between the AB and the lifter MUST
be maintained.

	If air movement is NOT what moves the lifter and some other force
is at work, the lifter should rise.

	NOTE:	QPT # 1 
	LEGEND:	QPT = Quick Pre Test

		A quick pre test is to weigh all of the materials needed
to fabricate the AB, plus maybe 10 to 20 percents extra and tie these to
the lifter to be used with about  15 to 20 inch long monofilament fishing
line to see if the lifter will lift itself and the AB.
	This way the weight of the AB is ruled out as an effect if the
lifter does not lift.

	2) Shield the Effects of Charge Coupling to surroundings

	
		(A) Very much as test (1)  a light weight semi rigid 
conductive Aluminum Screening Faraday Cage is preferred to shield the 
effects of Charge Coupling.

	Aluminum Screening Faraday Cage is abbreviated as ASFC
	Effects of Charge Coupling is abbreviated as ECC
	Aluminum Window Screening is abbreviated as AWS


                (B)     ASFC is made of Aluminum Window Screening which
can be seen through reasonably well.
	A box or cylinder can be made fastended together with wide clear
packing tape and framework can be made with plastic soda straws. 
	It is important to make sure any separate pieces of AWS are
electrically connected with copper wire and that a final 12 to 20 inch
length of wire is used to lead out from the ASFC to allow grounding.            

    	(C)     It is desirable to make sure there is a 3 to 4
inch spacing between all sides of the "lifter" and the ASFC.

	NOTE:	The Very Best TEST is to block air movement and shield
charge at the SAME TIME.
	To do this leave the AB in place and separate the ASFC from the AB
by 2 to 3 inches on all sides.

                (D)     Make sure the ASFC is physically connected but NOT
electrically connected
to the lifter with the 2 to 3 inch spacing so the lifter will lift the
ASFC and the spacing will be maintained.
     
   IMPORTANT:      The spacing between the ASFC and the lifter MUST
			be maintained.

	If both AB and ASFC are used then the 3 to 4 inches spacing of the
AB AND the 2 to 3 inch spacing of the ASFC from the AB MUST be maintained
and the whole must lift as a unit.

	Spacing can be maintained with plastic soda straws.


	The ASFC may be operated in at least 4 conditions:

	1]	floating
	2]	connected to Earth ground
	3]	connected to lifter power supply ground	
	4]	connected to some other potential, ie, most electrically
			excited or "hot" part of the lifter power supply.

	      NOTE:   QPT # 2
        LEGEND: QPT = Quick Pre Test

                A quick pre test is to weigh all of the materials needed
to fabricate the ASFC and the AB, plus maybe 10 to 20 percents extra and
tie these to the lifter to be used with about 15 to 20 inch long
monofilament fishing line to see if the lifter will lift itself and the
AB and the ASFC. 
        This way the weight of the AB and the ASFC is ruled out as an
effect if the lifter does not lift. 

On Wed, 2 Oct 2002, Keith Nagel wrote:

> Hi Stephan.
> 
> I know our list moderator is a proponent of the plastic
> bag test, but my gut feeling is that you'll at best get
> a moderate reduction in lifter effect, even if the entire effect
> is due to ions. Forget tissue paper.
> 
> 30KV may be low enough to allow you to float the
> lifter in mineral oil, which would provide the necessary
> insulation and prevent corona formation. Boiling
> the mineral oil beforehand to drive off the water
> will help. Here in the states you can buy quarts of
> the stuff from the pharmacy for a few dollars each.
> The viscosity is obviously a problem, but the
> thrust figures people have been talking about should
> allow for this kind of test. Heck, you'll even get
> more capacity as a side effect, which I presume is
> good? Four or five quarts ought to be enough to fill
> a small tank with lifter inside, apply the voltage
> and see if the lifter lifts...
> 
> K.
> 
> PS: When you walk up to the counter with the oil,
> roll your eyes and pat your stomach and speak
> in a loud clear voice, "Boy! That double wide
> beef burrito I had yesterday just isn't moving!"
> They may be so grossed out that they give you
> the oil just to get rid of you (grin).
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Lawrence [mailto:stephen lawrence.newnet.co.uk]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 9:49 AM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Lifters, Plastic Bags and Ion Wind tests
> 
> 
> DEar 'texians,
> 
> I'd like to do a simple ion-wind test on my "lifter" craft.  I've got 30kV
> DC.  I have a thin plastic bag.  I'm minded to wrap the lifter in the
> plastic bag (wires poking out through holes) and see whether it still
> lifts, or to what extent it does.  BUT
> 
> What is the effect of 30kV on the plastic Bag?  Will it burn, etc?  Would
> it have high enough resistance?  Can anyone think of another suitably
> ultra-light high resistance wrapping material to try?  Tissue paper?
> 
> Answers/Suggestions gratefully received.
> 
> Thanks, Stephen Lawrence.
> From: Stephen Lawrence, 8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England,
> CB4 3LB.  Tel/Fax +44 1223 564373
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  2 11:37:28 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA13186;
	Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:34:16 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:34:16 -0700
Message-ID: <20021002183409.11606.qmail web20702.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 11:34:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: harvey norris <harvich yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ZPE "pumping" proposal
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <003301c26a34$54198f00$0a016ea8 cpq>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"w6Swc.0.qD3.dmpcz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48067
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


--- Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> At first glance, ferromagnetism and
> superconductivity appear to be incompatible - not
> just incompatible but radically hostile to each
> other. But like so many things in nature,
> traditional expectation can blind one to the truth. 
> 
> Recently, an alloy of Zinc and Zirconium, ZrZn2, has
> been identified, which at low temperatures is both
> superconductive and ferromagnetic - at the same
> time! 
> 
Something that might easily be misconstrued in
applying superconductors to AC magnetic laws is the
following simple fact. Suppose indeed we have a coil
of zero resistance and we plug it into an AC source.
That coil if fact will still have impedance, or the AC
analogy to DC inductance.(Electro) Magnetic fields
ordinarily exhibit the quality of inertia, here
interpreted as the time lag between the applied
voltage as the cause for electron movement; and the
expressed amperage as the effect of that imposed
voltage, whereby the actual amperage being delivered
is the counterpart of that derived magnetic field,
further derived as B; the quantity of amp turns in the
coil known as flux density, and also as H, which is
the more complete description of the density of the
magnetic field in 3 dimensional space: whereby H is is
expressed as both the density of flux along the unit
length of the coil invovled; or amp-turns /inch.

What all this means is that even though the
spuerconducting coil has no resistance, it will still
have an AC resistance to magnetic flux change known as
impedance, where here the impedance would equal the
inductive reactance because R is zero; again because
of magnetic inertia. The formula for impedance is Z =
sq rt[X(L)^2 + R^2], were we can see that eliminating
R still leaves X(L) as a factor for the acting AC
resistance of that coil. X(L),(inductive reactance) is
further defined as 2 pi* F*L

What however does become interesting is the fact that
if we attempted to resonate that coil by placing a
Equal and opposite capacitive reactance X(C) in series
with that inductive reactance, the voltage gain
appearing by resonance to accomplish this would be
enormous. Actually by equation it would be an infinite
voltage. The voltage rise ratio is known by the Q of
the coil, expresed as the inductive reactance X(L)
divided by the resistance R, where Q = X(L)/R. Since R
approaches zero, Q approaches infinity.

I dont know enough about superconductivity to make
more comments than this, but there may also be other
limits to superconductivity when associated magnetic
fields are procurred. Given the fact that ALL
ferromagnetic substances seem to INHIBIT resonance to
perform to its fullest degree, the idea of a
ferromagnetic superconductor might have even further
drawbacks in this regard.

Sincerely HDN

=====
Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  2 15:09:31 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA15173;
	Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:30:10 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 14:30:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Weapons-grade uranium headed to Iraq
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 07:26:39 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <i3ompu0rq9q2cks0272jpafo16k5shbifg 4ax.com>
References: <llaipuole8rag3gc1vmo8mna7c8c8uut88 4ax.com> <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMEHNDFAA.knagel@gis.net> <v65kpus16lfrjpag9g566tp0atvi4v86jc@4ax.com> <3D9A45BF.8080102@rtpatlanta.com> <bdpkpu4rogb6k4en3fs9mfcdu2bqsdlddg@4ax.com> <3D9B016D.5080009@rtpatlanta.com>
In-Reply-To: <3D9B016D.5080009 rtpatlanta.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx2.eskimo.com id OAA14343
Resent-Message-ID: <"IuVYJ.0.Ni3.NLscz" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48068
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Wed, 02 Oct 2002 10:23:41 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]

>Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>>This may be true, but I doubt it. It sounds more like CIA propaganda to me.
>>
>
>If it's propaganda, the CIA has never done such an excellent job:
>
>http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Nebuchadnezzar+hussein
>

Amongst the many references here I found the following:
http://www.talentsministries.org/Sermons/babylon1.html 

which appears to be the most accurate.

I retract my suggestion about it being CIA propaganda, however I'm not convinced that he actually believes he is the reincarnation of Nebuchadnezzar. I can however see how such a conclusion could have been drawn
form his statement.

>>If Israel, was prepared to accept an equitable settlement with the Palestinians, he would also have no cause to intervene there either.
>>
>
>Equitable settlement???  My God man!  Are you not aware of what Arafat 
>was offered???  Netanyahu offered him 95% of Arafat's demands but he 
>would not compromise.  

I have heard both sides of this story. It appears to have been a tragic mix up in diplomacy.

>Arafat wants nothing less than the destruction of 
>the State of Israel.  

This may have been his goal at one time, however I doubt that is still the case. He is well aware that such a goal is utterly unachievable. There are however other Palestinians who still hold it dear, and like Sharon, Arafat has to walk a political tightrope.
BTW in case it is not clear let me state for the record that I do not support
violence (of any kind) as a means of dispute resolution, and consequently
abhor the use of such by both sides in the dispute. Not only is it abhorrent,
it in fact serves only to further entrench both sides in their belief that the other is unreasonable, and thus prolongs the agony for all involved.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  2 15:46:57 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA17651;
	Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:29:34 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 15:29:34 -0700
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 15:26:31 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: ZPE "pumping" proposal
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-id: <006301c26a62$c26f2b80$0a016ea8 cpq>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <20021002183409.11606.qmail web20702.mail.yahoo.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"ol_Lu.0.iJ4.DDtcz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48069
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "harvey norris" <harvich yahoo.com>

Thanks for your input.

> Something that might easily be misconstrued in
> applying superconductors to AC magnetic laws is the
> following simple fact. Suppose indeed we have a coil
> of zero resistance and we plug it into an AC source.
> That coil if fact will still have impedance, or the AC
> analogy to DC inductance.

Sure. But wouldn't the overall impedance still be a lot less than for a copper
conductor at the same temperature? After all, there are prototype HTSCs being
tested for AC power transmission lines. Whether the impedance or high Q  would
make it impossible to "cohere," or order, some fraction of random ZPE energy is
another issue. I assume that ZPE would exist at either extremely high
frequency (or else as some kind of transverse wave). Maybe the Casimir effect
comes not from a photon at all? another boson ?graviton?

HTSCs are being used in a number of exotic applications up to 100 GHZ which
seems to be a point where Cu performs as well, but at very low temperatures of
less than 25 K who knows? Also, it could be true that  any internal heat
generated cannot be dissipated quickly enough.

I haven't the faintest idea if a resonance range could be guessed in advance for
a SC device of the kind imagined here, but if the resonance was in any way
related to the outside geometry of the core, say 10 cm circumference, then we
would be talking about a range of ~800 Mhz to 3 Ghz depending on whether it is
quarter wave or whole. If it were related to the thickness of the layers it
would be above the Thz range and probably hopeless to recover inductively.

> What however does become interesting is the fact that
> if we attempted to resonate that coil by placing a
> Equal and opposite capacitive reactance X(C) in series
> with that inductive reactance, the voltage gain
> appearing by resonance to accomplish this would be
> enormous. Actually by equation it would be an infinite
> voltage. The voltage rise ratio is known by the Q of
> the coil, expressed as the inductive reactance X(L)
> divided by the resistance R, where Q = X(L)/R. Since R
> approaches zero, Q approaches infinity.

A capacitive reactance in series with an inductive reactance would be
unavoidable in the layered structure envisioned here, but a big difference is
that there would be no externally applied voltage at all, as with a wound coil,
at least not as imagined. All the current would arise locally (sub-nanometer
range where the local EM fields are enormous) in response to the appearance or
disappearance of whatever the equivalent structure to a Bloch wall would be in
the FSC.

Since the magnetic field would arise orthogonal to the axis of the core, I had
envisioned the core as a NIB magnet that would be compression pulsed by an
oscillating orthogonal field - but in retrospect, the frequency would probably
be too high for that.

Looking at real world applications, the high Q value of SC components in high
frequency application has made them most useful for filters but seems not to be
prohibitive for use as antennae. Go figure. But then again, most everything I
know is second or third hand - coming from the journals or from the internet as
I have no cryogenic equipment.

You have made a good point here regarding the Q values of a nano-layered SC
structure as being perhaps too high to cohere ZPE if it indeed acts like a
normal high frequency EM wave - I need to research it further.

Regards,

Jones Beene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  2 16:42:02 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA18392;
	Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:38:06 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:38:06 -0700
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: ZPE "pumping" proposal
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 19:53:06 -0400
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMCEIGDFAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
In-Reply-To: <006301c26a62$c26f2b80$0a016ea8 cpq>
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Importance: Normal
X-Rcpt-To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"_ODqB3.0.4V4.TDucz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48070
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Harvey & Horse.

Not sure why you two think that a high Q will somehow
prevent resonance, in the case Harvey mentioned you
have to take the capacitance into account to determine
the impedance of the whole circuit, which would be
sqrt(L/C). Unless you are dealing with pretty lossy
circuits, that formula works very nicely for predicting
expected voltages and currents in the ringing circuit.
With superconductive L and lossless C, expect the circuit
to just ring and ring with zero decay and the relation
between V and I as given above.

I don't understand how it is that you're expecting to
see more than 1/2 a quantum of energy coupling into
each of your microscopic resonators, if they're ringing
at the fundamental only. The Casimir force works
because the space outside the cavity contains much
more ZPE than the space inside, due to the structuring
of the vacuum which you introduce by forming the cavity.
The resulting force presses the cavity inward. A poor
analogy would be one where you somehow carve a chunk
of water out of middle of a glass of the stuff. The
surrounding water will immediately try to rush in.
Using the force destroys the cavity. For example, Forwards patents
on ZPE "engines" makes use of a foliated structure
which compresses due to ZPE, creating energy. Of course,
it only works once...

By the way, you ( Horse ) mention electroplating lead.
You should try it sometimes, the results are simply
beautiful. Lead is remarkable in that it will plate in
broad mono-atomically thin layers. The result appears much like
the scales of a swordfish, brilliant rainbow colors due
to the layers being 1/4 wavelength thick. I've never
tried plating zirconium, I !think! it is possible. I've
plated zinc and also alloys thereof, so it seems reasonable enough
to try. That is really strange by the way, a ferromagnetic
superconductor. Very intriguing.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 6:27 PM
To: vortex
Subject: Re: ZPE "pumping" proposal


From: "harvey norris" <harvich yahoo.com>

Thanks for your input.

> Something that might easily be misconstrued in
> applying superconductors to AC magnetic laws is the
> following simple fact. Suppose indeed we have a coil
> of zero resistance and we plug it into an AC source.
> That coil if fact will still have impedance, or the AC
> analogy to DC inductance.

Sure. But wouldn't the overall impedance still be a lot less than for a
copper
conductor at the same temperature? After all, there are prototype HTSCs
being
tested for AC power transmission lines. Whether the impedance or high Q
would
make it impossible to "cohere," or order, some fraction of random ZPE energy
is
another issue. I assume that ZPE would exist at either extremely high
frequency (or else as some kind of transverse wave). Maybe the Casimir
effect
comes not from a photon at all? another boson ?graviton?

HTSCs are being used in a number of exotic applications up to 100 GHZ which
seems to be a point where Cu performs as well, but at very low temperatures
of
less than 25 K who knows? Also, it could be true that  any internal heat
generated cannot be dissipated quickly enough.

I haven't the faintest idea if a resonance range could be guessed in advance
for
a SC device of the kind imagined here, but if the resonance was in any way
related to the outside geometry of the core, say 10 cm circumference, then
we
would be talking about a range of ~800 Mhz to 3 Ghz depending on whether it
is
quarter wave or whole. If it were related to the thickness of the layers it
would be above the Thz range and probably hopeless to recover inductively.

> What however does become interesting is the fact that
> if we attempted to resonate that coil by placing a
> Equal and opposite capacitive reactance X(C) in series
> with that inductive reactance, the voltage gain
> appearing by resonance to accomplish this would be
> enormous. Actually by equation it would be an infinite
> voltage. The voltage rise ratio is known by the Q of
> the coil, expressed as the inductive reactance X(L)
> divided by the resistance R, where Q = X(L)/R. Since R
> approaches zero, Q approaches infinity.

A capacitive reactance in series with an inductive reactance would be
unavoidable in the layered structure envisioned here, but a big difference
is
that there would be no externally applied voltage at all, as with a wound
coil,
at least not as imagined. All the current would arise locally (sub-nanometer
range where the local EM fields are enormous) in response to the appearance
or
disappearance of whatever the equivalent structure to a Bloch wall would be
in
the FSC.

Since the magnetic field would arise orthogonal to the axis of the core, I
had
envisioned the core as a NIB magnet that would be compression pulsed by an
oscillating orthogonal field - but in retrospect, the frequency would
probably
be too high for that.

Looking at real world applications, the high Q value of SC components in
high
frequency application has made them most useful for filters but seems not to
be
prohibitive for use as antennae. Go figure. But then again, most everything
I
know is second or third hand - coming from the journals or from the internet
as
I have no cryogenic equipment.

You have made a good point here regarding the Q values of a nano-layered SC
structure as being perhaps too high to cohere ZPE if it indeed acts like a
normal high frequency EM wave - I need to research it further.

Regards,

Jones Beene


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  2 17:42:25 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA14383;
	Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:38:48 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:38:48 -0700
Message-ID: <003b01c26a75$0ba0ca40$5e201f41 woh.rr.com>
From: "Nicholas Reiter" <nreiter woh.rr.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: <puthoff aol.com>
References: <003301c26a34$54198f00$0a016ea8 cpq>
Subject: Re: ZPE "pumping" proposal
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 20:37:24 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0038_01C26A53.84014220"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"gbBGJ1.0.eW3.O6vcz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48071
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C26A53.84014220
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Wow...I shall look away from my chiral crystal/inertial musings to have =
a jump in on this one too.  Thanks, Jones, for bringing the article to =
our attention.

I agree with Keith that lead is awesome in thin films.  Having access to =
an e-beam evaporator, I can vouch that e-beam is a great way to put such =
films down, although one has to rotate your substrate somehow to get =
even coverage, if said substrate is a cylinder.  OTOH, I wonder if the =
layers of Pb / dielectric / ZrZn2 could be evaporated onto a primary =
substrate that would be flexible at room temperature (such as mylar), =
then formed into a cylinder.  Hmmm then what would you do at the edges =
to adjoin them?  Maybe a shunt bar would work there.  Oh well idle =
thought.

>From what I gather, geometry and proportion at the nano-level can =
determine if the Casimir force is attracting (as between two plates) or =
repelling (between certain dimension spheres I believe)  I think this is =
what Jordan MacClay and Robt. Forward are still working on as part of =
their BPP contract.  Maybe by coating nano-structures with ZrZn2 films =
and superimposing these on planar films of a regular SC, one could get =
vastly enhanced effects.

Might be play time.  I wonder if ZrZn2 evaporates stoichiometrically =
from an alloy source.  May have to co-sputter it.

Sorry for the ramble,

NR
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Jones Beene=20
  To: vortex=20
  Cc: puthoff aol.com ; Frederick Sparber=20
  Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2002 12:54 PM
  Subject: ZPE "pumping" proposal


  Greetings,

  At first glance, ferromagnetism and superconductivity appear to be =
incompatible - not just incompatible but radically hostile to each =
other. But like so many things in nature, traditional expectation can =
blind one to the truth.=20

  Recently, an alloy of Zinc and Zirconium, ZrZn2, has been identified, =
which at low temperatures is both superconductive and ferromagnetic - at =
the same time!=20

  Plus, these two metals are both plentiful, cheap and most importantly, =
can be electroplated or sputtered with precision in nanolayers - and (it =
is hoped but unproven) then alloyed in situ at the precise ratio.

  Does this strange new material open up an avenue for attaining the =
Holy Grail of free energy research, the ZPE pump?

  The following idea jolted me out of a deep sleep this morning, so it =
is both fresh baked and half-baked, nevertheless I'd like to throw it =
out to interested parties for comment and ultimately in hopes that =
someone with cryogenic equipment, a decent bankroll, and some =
imagination will possibly pick it up for experimentation.

  Most readers of this forum are familiar with Dr. Puthoff and his =
theoretical studies of the Casimir effect and "Extracting Energy and =
Heat from the Vacuum." I won't get into the details of that body of work =
except to say that the Casimir effect has been actually demonstrated, so =
it is far beyond "just" theory. Although often called an "attractive =
force" the Casimir effect is an EM interaction initiated by photons. =
Particles other than photons can contribute an additional reinforcement =
or cancellation effect but only the photon energy seems to be =
"extractable." If electromagnetism was super-symmetric there would be =
fermionic effects that would exactly cancel out the photon effects and =
there would be no Casimir effect. The fact that the Casimir effect =
exists at all shows us that if supersymmetry exists in nature, it must =
be a broken symmetry at small distances; AND furthermore, we are finding =
out that such distances are in the range of advanced high volume =
nano-manufacturing techniques such as precision electroplating and =
sputtering.




------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C26A53.84014220
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; =
MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial
}
</STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Wow...I shall look away from my chiral =
crystal/inertial=20
musings to have a jump in on this one too.&nbsp; Thanks, Jones, for =
bringing the=20
article to our attention.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I agree with Keith that lead is awesome in thin =
films.&nbsp;=20
Having access to an e-beam evaporator, I can vouch that e-beam is a =
great way to=20
put such films down, although one has to rotate your substrate somehow =
to get=20
even coverage, if said substrate is a cylinder.&nbsp; OTOH, I wonder if =
the=20
layers of Pb / dielectric / ZrZn2 could be evaporated onto a primary =
substrate=20
that would be flexible at room temperature (such as mylar), then formed =
into a=20
cylinder.&nbsp; Hmmm then what would you do at the edges to adjoin =
them?&nbsp;=20
Maybe a shunt bar would work there.&nbsp; Oh well idle =
thought.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>From what I gather, geometry and proportion at the =
nano-level=20
can determine if the Casimir force is attracting (as between two plates) =
or=20
repelling (between certain dimension spheres I believe)&nbsp; I think =
this is=20
what Jordan MacClay and Robt.&nbsp;Forward are still working on as part =
of their=20
BPP contract.&nbsp; Maybe by coating nano-structures with ZrZn2 films =
and=20
superimposing these on planar films of a regular SC, one could get =
vastly=20
enhanced effects.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Might be play time.&nbsp; I wonder if ZrZn2 =
evaporates=20
stoichiometrically from an alloy source.&nbsp; May have to co-sputter=20
it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Sorry for the ramble,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>NR</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Djonesb9 pacbell.net =
href=3D"mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net">Jones Beene</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Dputhoff aol.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:puthoff aol.com">puthoff@aol.com</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Dfjsparber earthlink.net =
href=3D"mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net">Frederick=20
  Sparber</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 02, =
2002 12:54=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> ZPE "pumping" =
proposal</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Greetings,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>At first glance, ferromagnetism and superconductivity appear to =
be=20
  incompatible - not just incompatible but radically hostile to each =
other. But=20
  like so many things in nature, traditional expectation can blind one =
to the=20
  truth. </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Recently, an alloy of Zinc and Zirconium, ZrZn2, has been =
identified,=20
  which at low temperatures is both superconductive and ferromagnetic - =
at the=20
  same time! </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Plus, these two metals are both&nbsp;plentiful, cheap and most=20
  importantly, can be electroplated or sputtered with precision in =
nanolayers=20
  -&nbsp;and (it is hoped but unproven) then alloyed in situ&nbsp;at the =
precise=20
  ratio.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Does this strange new material open up an avenue for attaining =
the Holy=20
  Grail of free energy research,&nbsp;the ZPE pump?</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>The following idea jolted me out of a deep sleep this morning, so =
it is=20
  both fresh baked and half-baked, nevertheless I'd like to throw it out =
to=20
  interested parties for comment and ultimately in hopes that someone =
with=20
  cryogenic equipment, a decent bankroll,&nbsp;and&nbsp;some imagination =
will=20
  possibly pick it up for experimentation.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Most readers of this forum are familiar with Dr. Puthoff and his=20
  theoretical studies of the Casimir effect and "Extracting Energy and =
Heat from=20
  the Vacuum." I won't get into the details of that body of work except =
to say=20
  that the Casimir effect has been actually demonstrated, so it is far =
beyond=20
  "just" theory. Although often called an "attractive force"&nbsp;the =
Casimir=20
  effect&nbsp;is an EM interaction initiated by photons. Particles other =
than=20
  photons can contribute an additional&nbsp;reinforcement or =
cancellation effect=20
  but only the photon energy seems to be&nbsp;"extractable." If =
electromagnetism=20
  was super-symmetric there would be fermionic effects that would =
exactly cancel=20
  out&nbsp;the photon effects&nbsp;and there would be no Casimir effect. =
The=20
  fact that the Casimir effect exists at all shows us that if =
supersymmetry=20
  exists in nature, it must be a broken symmetry at small distances; AND =

  furthermore, we are finding out that such distances are in the range =
of=20
  advanced high volume nano-manufacturing techniques such as precision=20
  electroplating and sputtering.</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C26A53.84014220--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  2 21:51:01 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA25837;
	Wed, 2 Oct 2002 21:49:30 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 21:49:30 -0700
Message-ID: <20021003044924.60744.qmail web20704.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 21:49:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: harvey norris <harvich yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ZPE "pumping" proposal
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <006301c26a62$c26f2b80$0a016ea8 cpq>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"duZcI1.0.XJ6.Pnycz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48072
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


--- Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net> wrote:
> From: "harvey norris" <harvich yahoo.com>
> 
> Thanks for your input.
> You have made a good point here regarding the Q
> values of a nano-layered SC
> structure as being perhaps too high to cohere ZPE if
> it indeed acts like a
> normal high frequency EM wave - I need to research
> it further.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jones Beene
To quote the modern "hillbilly research" that can be
made by home/made components simply made by anyone
taking the diodes out of a 3 phase car alternator,
running that device from another wall derived AC motor
assumed to be constant rpm; and converting it to 3
phase AC action: we can quickly discover what laws of
resonance apply by common experimentation. We cannot
take for granted what is written in that book of
(resonance)laws. When the output of a resonance fails
to perform to expectations we must rely on science to
account for those reduction factors. Chief among these
is the accounting for R(int) of the source of emf
itself,(found as the stator windings themselves). In
power delivered by the grid that R(int) consideration
becomes miniscule in comparison to the power being
delivered on that load. But when we manufacture the
power for ourselves, and note the effects of resonance
from that source: the output is not what is to be
expected from a simple reading of the open circuit
voltage before that load is attached. Likewise the
simple knowledge of what resonance is "supposed" to
accomplish by a source of emf is often met by an
actual dismal performance on output components, merely
because the total performance of the circuit may not
include the drop of voltage by the source according to
loading by comparison of what R(int) itself acts as.
Additionally to this is the demon of internal
capacitance that multi-layered wound L components may
exhibit.
In short "A bird in the hand", is worth two in the
bush: And Science only becomes Science when the
limitations of that Science are exposed in Reality.
Ordinarily then we can only say that an Ideal
Component only acts in accordance with what is
revealed as its reality of performance as that real
component, and those limitations are expressed as real
testings to show the real performance of that element,
in quite stark contrast to what is sometimes held as
that performance factor if that element were to act in
the ideal manner prescribed by electrical theory. The
theory does not always act to perform as expected, in
the imaginings of its performance in an ideal manner.
That eseentially is the gulf between imagination and
reality.

Sincerely HDN


=====
Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct  2 22:09:31 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA01339;
	Wed, 2 Oct 2002 22:08:38 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 22:08:38 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Weapons-grade uranium headed to Iraq
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2002 13:18:21 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <5hnkpuc33dl33e858osivd276rg0ob50og 4ax.com>
References: <v65kpus16lfrjpag9g566tp0atvi4v86jc 4ax.com> <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMEIADFAA.knagel@gis.net>
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMEIADFAA.knagel gis.net>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA01306
Resent-Message-ID: <"aS7422.0.qK.M3zcz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48073
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Tue, 1 Oct 2002 19:56:45 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>Good point, but this doesn't require fancy CIA plots.
>All that is necessary is for Dub to get up and say,
>"Saddam hussein has green kryptonite! And is 6 months
>away from a functioning Death Star!" The press corps
>coughs and chuckles, these statements are duely recorded,
>and a majority of Americans vote Republican in the
>midterm elections and go back to watching "Friends" reruns.

ROFL. 

>
>You don't really understand life here in America,
>do you Robin?

Actually I lived in CA for a couple of years in my early teens, though I guess it's changed a bit since then. Nevertheless, I think I have a reasonable feel for what it's like.
Enough to know that no real administration would actually dare to pull the sort of stunt you describe with a live microphone.

>
>>OTOH, if oil is the real reason behind this little
>>stage show, then the US adinistration will never accept
>>any solution to the problem that doesn't involve US interests
>>getting their hands on the profits from Iraqi oil.
>
>Well, in the short term, it's all about the midterm elections.
>Currently, the Republicans control the House, the executive
>branch, and the Supreme court. The Senate is one senator
>away from being Republican. Suffice it to say, we're going
>to be hearing a lot about war until after the midterms.

I'm sure this is so. 

>
>In the long term, yes it's about the oil. These folks REALLY
>want that oil. And if all this seems to be off topic for
>vortex, lets talk further on that issue. Energy issues have
>been the driving force in the administration, and as
>alt-energy researchers it bears our paying close attention to.

Not just that oil, but ALL the oil. It starts with Iraq, then comes either
Iran or Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. In the mean time the hold on the central asian oil fields is strengthened. Most of this prompted by the fact that 
the North Sea fields are running out, bringing an end to the primary price stabilising mechanism. And yes, I agree, alt-energy was never more critical.
(It was the development of the North Sea fields that brought an end to OPEC's oil embargo in the 70's.) So now you know what you have to look forward to, and you can watch history unfold, from perhaps a slightly different perspective.
[snip]

>thanks very much. And by the way, he still seems to be out there, in
>case anyones forgotten. Remember him, the guy that actually
>does attack our cities???? Can we please kill him first????

He was never going to be caught in the first place. Having done his job, he is now retired with a nice pension. Perhaps he lives in an apartment in NY city, with a view of the what used to be the WTC. 

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  3 09:41:15 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA14120;
	Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:23:21 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:23:21 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 09:20:45 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: ZPE "pumping" proposal
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-id: <004701c26af8$d3c2fc40$0a016ea8 cpq>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0044_01C26ABE.272100C0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"WOKHy2.0.WS3.tx6dz" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48074
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C26ABE.272100C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Keith, Nick, Harvey and all,

> Not sure why you two think that a high Q will somehow
> prevent resonance

It's not so much in possibly preventing resonance but in hindering the =
capture
or cohering the energy of a putative photon (if the Casimir effect is =
due to an
extremely high frequency photon and not some other kind of boson or =
transverse
wave). If such an EM wave can be captured, resonance will likely occur
naturally.

One has to assume that there would already exist at these dimensions =
something analogous to a super "skin effect" that excludes these photons =
from normal EM interactions or else we would already have seen some =
evidence of their effect in layered conductive structures...

Or, maybe..  just maybe,  that is why some capacitors reputedly=20
"self-charge"... ;-}

> I don't understand how it is that you're expecting to
> see more than 1/2 a quantum of energy coupling into
> each of your microscopic resonators, if they're ringing
> at the fundamental only. The Casimir force works
> because the space outside the cavity contains much
> more ZPE than the space inside, due to the structuring
> of the vacuum which you introduce by forming the cavity.

But in that version of Casimir experiments, one is looking only for a =
"pressure"
effect, and what I am going for is a direct EM capture, ala the =
photoelectric
effect... more specifically, if one can place very high crossed-fields =
with the
right spacing, some of this free energy might cohere.

> You should try it sometimes [electroplating lead], the results are =
simply
> beautiful. Lead is remarkable in that it will plate in
> broad mono-atomically thin layers. The result appears much like
> the scales of a swordfish, brilliant rainbow colors due
> to the layers being 1/4 wavelength thick

I have never tried it, but I followed the work ($mega) that IBM did =
decades
ago in trying to create SC circuits with lead and Josephson junctions. =
They gave
up trying (or is it now a CIA "black" project) but I'm not sure it was =
all in
vain... BTW, I wonder if any Josephson junctions of a particular =
configuration
ever picked up any anomalous energy?

>From NR:

>Having access to an e-beam evaporator, I can vouch that e-beam is a =
great way to put such films down, although one has to rotate your =
substrate somehow to get even coverage, if said substrate is a =
cylinder...

That would be a problem for a cylinder ...and would Zr work with an =
evaporator?
b.p.=3D 4600 K. Perhaps as you suggest, ZrZn2 evaporates =
stoichiometrically from
an alloy source.  I doubt it though because the original discovers had =
trouble
with it.

For making a prototype of a multi-nano-layered cylinder, if it ever got =
that
far, I was thinking about an automatic rotating, articulated DC powered =
mandrel
with maybe 5 or 6 plating tanks arranged "lazy susan " style where each =
workpiece would get a few seconds did plating and move to the next in a =
repeating process over several days (the insulator layers would be =
anodized). BUT could substantial ZrZn2 be coaxed to form at the =
interface of the Zn and Zr layers? maybe from a nano-sandwich, Zn-Zr-Zn

If you have a very high precision power analyzer maybe you could get by =
with a
single layer but unfortunately, I think the power density, if it works =
at all,
will be a few micro-watts per cm^2 so multiple layers will be needed to =
get a
sure reading with normal meters and of course for usable output you =
could need many thousands of layers.

Regards,

Jones




------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C26ABE.272100C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; =
MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial
}
</STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4916.2300" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Hi Keith, Nick, Harvey and all,<BR><BR>&gt; Not sure why you two =
think that=20
a high Q will somehow<BR>&gt; prevent resonance<BR><BR>It's not so much =
in=20
possibly preventing resonance but in hindering the capture<BR>or =
cohering the=20
energy of a putative photon (if the Casimir effect is due to =
an<BR>extremely=20
high frequency photon and not some other kind of boson or =
transverse<BR>wave).=20
If such an EM wave can be captured, resonance will likely=20
occur<BR>naturally.<BR><BR>One has to assume that there would already =
exist at=20
these dimensions something analogous to a super "skin effect" that =
excludes=20
these photons from normal EM interactions or else we would already have =
seen=20
some evidence of their effect in layered conductive =
structures...<BR><BR>Or,=20
maybe..&nbsp; just maybe,&nbsp; that is why some capacitors reputedly =
</DIV>
<DIV>"self-charge"... ;-}<BR><BR>&gt; I don't understand how it is that =
you're=20
expecting to<BR>&gt; see more than 1/2 a quantum of energy coupling =
into<BR>&gt;=20
each of your microscopic resonators, if they're ringing<BR>&gt; at the=20
fundamental only. The Casimir force works<BR>&gt; because the space =
outside the=20
cavity contains much<BR>&gt; more ZPE than the space inside, due to the=20
structuring<BR>&gt; of the vacuum which you introduce by forming the=20
cavity.<BR><BR>But in that version of Casimir experiments, one is =
looking only=20
for a "pressure"<BR>effect, and what I am going for is a direct EM =
capture, ala=20
the photoelectric<BR>effect... more specifically, if one can place very =
high=20
crossed-fields with the<BR>right spacing, some of this free energy might =

cohere.<BR><BR>&gt; You should try it sometimes [electroplating lead], =
the=20
results are simply<BR>&gt; beautiful. Lead is remarkable in that it will =
plate=20
in<BR>&gt; broad mono-atomically thin layers. The result appears much=20
like<BR>&gt; the scales of a swordfish, brilliant rainbow colors =
due<BR>&gt; to=20
the layers being 1/4 wavelength thick<BR><BR>I have never tried it, but =
I=20
followed the work ($mega) that IBM did decades<BR>ago in trying to =
create SC=20
circuits with lead and Josephson junctions. They gave<BR>up trying (or =
is it now=20
a CIA "black" project) but I'm not sure it was all in<BR>vain... BTW, I =
wonder=20
if any Josephson junctions of a particular configuration<BR>ever picked =
up any=20
anomalous energy?<BR><BR>From NR:<BR><BR>&gt;Having access to an e-beam=20
evaporator, I can vouch that e-beam is a great way to put such films =
down,=20
although one has to rotate your substrate somehow to get even coverage, =
if said=20
substrate is a cylinder...<BR><BR>That would be a problem for a cylinder =
...and=20
would Zr work with an evaporator?<BR>b.p.=3D 4600 K. Perhaps as you =
suggest, ZrZn2=20
evaporates stoichiometrically from<BR>an alloy source.&nbsp; I doubt it =
though=20
because the original discovers had trouble<BR>with it.<BR><BR>For making =
a=20
prototype of a multi-nano-layered cylinder, if it ever got that<BR>far, =
I was=20
thinking about an automatic rotating, articulated DC powered =
mandrel<BR>with=20
maybe 5 or 6 plating tanks arranged "lazy susan " style where each=20
workpiece&nbsp;would get a few seconds did plating and move to the next =
in a=20
repeating process over several days (the insulator layers would be =
anodized).=20
BUT could substantial ZrZn2 be coaxed to form at the interface of the Zn =
and Zr=20
layers? maybe from a nano-sandwich, Zn-Zr-Zn<BR><BR>If you have a very =
high=20
precision power analyzer maybe you could get by with a<BR>single layer =
but=20
unfortunately, I think the power density, if it works at all,<BR>will be =
a few=20
micro-watts per cm^2 so multiple layers will be needed to get a<BR>sure =
reading=20
with normal meters and of course for usable output you could need many =
thousands=20
of =
layers.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Jones<BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C26ABE.272100C0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  3 09:43:09 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA14953;
	Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:26:52 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 09:26:52 -0700 (PDT)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05111b1db9c1819817da [209.23.136.38]>
In-Reply-To: <i3ompu0rq9q2cks0272jpafo16k5shbifg 4ax.com>
References: <llaipuole8rag3gc1vmo8mna7c8c8uut88 4ax.com>
 <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMEHNDFAA.knagel gis.net>
 <v65kpus16lfrjpag9g566tp0atvi4v86jc 4ax.com>
 <3D9A45BF.8080102 rtpatlanta.com>
 <bdpkpu4rogb6k4en3fs9mfcdu2bqsdlddg 4ax.com>
 <3D9B016D.5080009 rtpatlanta.com>
 <i3ompu0rq9q2cks0272jpafo16k5shbifg 4ax.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:27:08 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Weapons-grade uranium headed to Iraq
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"KyZQX2.0.Zf3.9_6dz" mx2>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48075
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

>
>  >Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>
>I have heard both sides of this story. It appears to have been a 
>tragic mix up in diplomacy.

They want to get control of the West Bank so that they can bring 
soldiers right into the heart of Israel.

>
>>Arafat wants nothing less than the destruction of
>>the State of Israel. 
>
>This may have been his goal at one time, however I doubt that is 
>still the case. He is well aware that such a goal is utterly 
>unachievable. There are however other

You may think that they no longer  want to destroy the state of 
Israel, but you are wrong. They have an implacable hatred

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  3 12:36:02 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA22169;
	Thu, 3 Oct 2002 12:20:01 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 12:20:01 -0700
X-Sent: 3 Oct 2002 18:47:30 GMT
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021003144402.03238038 mail.DIRECTVInternet.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell mail.DIRECTVInternet.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2002 14:47:30 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: New files on LENR-CANR.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"Qq9BN3.0.IQ5.XX9dz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48076
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I finished the index by publication, and I uploaded the "Accountability in 
Research" papers. The publication index is a little unwieldy. I should 
probably make a version listing only publications with papers we have on file.

I will now go back to preparing papers. Good ones from EPRI and Miles are 
in the hopper.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  3 13:05:32 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA08834;
	Thu, 3 Oct 2002 12:53:43 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 12:53:43 -0700
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: ZPE "pumping" proposal
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 16:08:38 -0400
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMGEIJDFAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C26AF7.223C51C0"
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
In-Reply-To: <004701c26af8$d3c2fc40$0a016ea8 cpq>
Importance: Normal
X-Rcpt-To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"njY0S2.0.y92.71Adz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48077
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C26AF7.223C51C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi.

Well, the energy is already in the cavity, 1/2 a photons worth.

Is the recharging of large electrolytics due to ZPE? Interesting
idea, the aluminum oxide layer does indeed form plates
of a hexagonal shape, if I remember correctly. Each plate
has a small hole in the center, not sure of the size though.
If so, what's the rectifying mechanism? I know electrolytics
have been used in the past as rectifiers of sorts, but
we're talking about a microscale phenomena now...

Electroplating is a real art, people do it because it's
cheap to play with and low energy, but what a challenge
to get repeatable and reliable results. My experiments
with alloys were done without regard to production needs,
I'd mix up the chemicals and plate until conditions were
such that the alloy wouldn't plate right anymore.

Nick has the right idea, e-beam is the way to go here.

K.
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
  Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:21 PM
  To: vortex
  Subject: Re: ZPE "pumping" proposal


  Hi Keith, Nick, Harvey and all,

  > Not sure why you two think that a high Q will somehow
  > prevent resonance

  It's not so much in possibly preventing resonance but in hindering the
capture
  or cohering the energy of a putative photon (if the Casimir effect is due
to an
  extremely high frequency photon and not some other kind of boson or
transverse
  wave). If such an EM wave can be captured, resonance will likely occur
  naturally.

  One has to assume that there would already exist at these dimensions
something analogous to a super "skin effect" that excludes these photons
from normal EM interactions or else we would already have seen some evidence
of their effect in layered conductive structures...

  Or, maybe..  just maybe,  that is why some capacitors reputedly
  "self-charge"... ;-}

  > I don't understand how it is that you're expecting to
  > see more than 1/2 a quantum of energy coupling into
  > each of your microscopic resonators, if they're ringing
  > at the fundamental only. The Casimir force works
  > because the space outside the cavity contains much
  > more ZPE than the space inside, due to the structuring
  > of the vacuum which you introduce by forming the cavity.

  But in that version of Casimir experiments, one is looking only for a
"pressure"
  effect, and what I am going for is a direct EM capture, ala the
photoelectric
  effect... more specifically, if one can place very high crossed-fields
with the
  right spacing, some of this free energy might cohere.

  > You should try it sometimes [electroplating lead], the results are
simply
  > beautiful. Lead is remarkable in that it will plate in
  > broad mono-atomically thin layers. The result appears much like
  > the scales of a swordfish, brilliant rainbow colors due
  > to the layers being 1/4 wavelength thick

  I have never tried it, but I followed the work ($mega) that IBM did
decades
  ago in trying to create SC circuits with lead and Josephson junctions.
They gave
  up trying (or is it now a CIA "black" project) but I'm not sure it was all
in
  vain... BTW, I wonder if any Josephson junctions of a particular
configuration
  ever picked up any anomalous energy?

  From NR:

  >Having access to an e-beam evaporator, I can vouch that e-beam is a great
way to put such films down, although one has to rotate your substrate
somehow to get even coverage, if said substrate is a cylinder...

  That would be a problem for a cylinder ...and would Zr work with an
evaporator?
  b.p.= 4600 K. Perhaps as you suggest, ZrZn2 evaporates stoichiometrically
from
  an alloy source.  I doubt it though because the original discovers had
trouble
  with it.

  For making a prototype of a multi-nano-layered cylinder, if it ever got
that
  far, I was thinking about an automatic rotating, articulated DC powered
mandrel
  with maybe 5 or 6 plating tanks arranged "lazy susan " style where each
workpiece would get a few seconds did plating and move to the next in a
repeating process over several days (the insulator layers would be
anodized). BUT could substantial ZrZn2 be coaxed to form at the interface of
the Zn and Zr layers? maybe from a nano-sandwich, Zn-Zr-Zn

  If you have a very high precision power analyzer maybe you could get by
with a
  single layer but unfortunately, I think the power density, if it works at
all,
  will be a few micro-watts per cm^2 so multiple layers will be needed to
get a
  sure reading with normal meters and of course for usable output you could
need many thousands of layers.

  Regards,

  Jones





------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C26AF7.223C51C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; COLOR: =
#000000; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; =
MARGIN-TOP: 25px
}
</STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4916.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002>Hi.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002>Well, the energy is already in the =
cavity,=20
1/2 a photons worth.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002>Is the recharging of large =
electrolytics due=20
to ZPE? Interesting</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002>idea, the aluminum oxide layer =
does indeed=20
form plates</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002>of a hexagonal shape, if I =
remember=20
correctly. Each plate</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002>has a small hole in the center, =
not sure of=20
the size though.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002>If so, what's the rectifying =
mechanism? I=20
know electrolytics</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002>have been used in the past as =
rectifiers of=20
sorts, but</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002>we're talking about a microscale =
phenomena=20
now...</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002>Electroplating is a real art, =
people do it=20
because it's</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002>cheap to play with and low energy, =
but what=20
a challenge</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002>to get repeatable and reliable =
results. My=20
experiments</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002>with alloys were done without =
regard to=20
production needs,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002>I'd mix up the chemicals and plate =
until=20
conditions were</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002>such that the alloy wouldn't plate =
right=20
anymore.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002>Nick has the right idea, e-beam is =
the way=20
to go here.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D909522419-03102002>K.</SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Jones Beene=20
  [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 03, =
2002 12:21=20
  PM<BR><B>To:</B> vortex<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: ZPE "pumping"=20
  proposal<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
  <DIV>Hi Keith, Nick, Harvey and all,<BR><BR>&gt; Not sure why you two =
think=20
  that a high Q will somehow<BR>&gt; prevent resonance<BR><BR>It's not =
so much=20
  in possibly preventing resonance but in hindering the capture<BR>or =
cohering=20
  the energy of a putative photon (if the Casimir effect is due to=20
  an<BR>extremely high frequency photon and not some other kind of boson =
or=20
  transverse<BR>wave). If such an EM wave can be captured, resonance =
will likely=20
  occur<BR>naturally.<BR><BR>One has to assume that there would already =
exist at=20
  these dimensions something analogous to a super "skin effect" that =
excludes=20
  these photons from normal EM interactions or else we would already =
have seen=20
  some evidence of their effect in layered conductive =
structures...<BR><BR>Or,=20
  maybe..&nbsp; just maybe,&nbsp; that is why some capacitors reputedly =
</DIV>
  <DIV>"self-charge"... ;-}<BR><BR>&gt; I don't understand how it is =
that you're=20
  expecting to<BR>&gt; see more than 1/2 a quantum of energy coupling=20
  into<BR>&gt; each of your microscopic resonators, if they're =
ringing<BR>&gt;=20
  at the fundamental only. The Casimir force works<BR>&gt; because the =
space=20
  outside the cavity contains much<BR>&gt; more ZPE than the space =
inside, due=20
  to the structuring<BR>&gt; of the vacuum which you introduce by =
forming the=20
  cavity.<BR><BR>But in that version of Casimir experiments, one is =
looking only=20
  for a "pressure"<BR>effect, and what I am going for is a direct EM =
capture,=20
  ala the photoelectric<BR>effect... more specifically, if one can place =
very=20
  high crossed-fields with the<BR>right spacing, some of this free =
energy might=20
  cohere.<BR><BR>&gt; You should try it sometimes [electroplating lead], =
the=20
  results are simply<BR>&gt; beautiful. Lead is remarkable in that it =
will plate=20
  in<BR>&gt; broad mono-atomically thin layers. The result appears much=20
  like<BR>&gt; the scales of a swordfish, brilliant rainbow colors =
due<BR>&gt;=20
  to the layers being 1/4 wavelength thick<BR><BR>I have never tried it, =
but I=20
  followed the work ($mega) that IBM did decades<BR>ago in trying to =
create SC=20
  circuits with lead and Josephson junctions. They gave<BR>up trying (or =
is it=20
  now a CIA "black" project) but I'm not sure it was all in<BR>vain... =
BTW, I=20
  wonder if any Josephson junctions of a particular =
configuration<BR>ever picked=20
  up any anomalous energy?<BR><BR>From NR:<BR><BR>&gt;Having access to =
an e-beam=20
  evaporator, I can vouch that e-beam is a great way to put such films =
down,=20
  although one has to rotate your substrate somehow to get even =
coverage, if=20
  said substrate is a cylinder...<BR><BR>That would be a problem for a =
cylinder=20
  ...and would Zr work with an evaporator?<BR>b.p.=3D 4600 K. Perhaps as =
you=20
  suggest, ZrZn2 evaporates stoichiometrically from<BR>an alloy =
source.&nbsp; I=20
  doubt it though because the original discovers had trouble<BR>with=20
  it.<BR><BR>For making a prototype of a multi-nano-layered cylinder, if =
it ever=20
  got that<BR>far, I was thinking about an automatic rotating, =
articulated DC=20
  powered mandrel<BR>with maybe 5 or 6 plating tanks arranged "lazy =
susan "=20
  style where each workpiece&nbsp;would get a few seconds did plating =
and move=20
  to the next in a repeating process over several days (the insulator =
layers=20
  would be anodized). BUT could substantial ZrZn2 be coaxed to form at =
the=20
  interface of the Zn and Zr layers? maybe from a nano-sandwich,=20
  Zn-Zr-Zn<BR><BR>If you have a very high precision power analyzer maybe =
you=20
  could get by with a<BR>single layer but unfortunately, I think the =
power=20
  density, if it works at all,<BR>will be a few micro-watts per cm^2 so =
multiple=20
  layers will be needed to get a<BR>sure reading with normal meters and =
of=20
  course for usable output you could need many thousands of=20
  =
layers.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Jones<BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></=
BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C26AF7.223C51C0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  3 15:21:07 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA22254;
	Thu, 3 Oct 2002 15:18:43 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 15:18:43 -0700
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 18:19:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
cc: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, jonesb9@pacbell.net
Subject:  ZPE "pumping" and Casismir Effect
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMGEIJDFAA.knagel gis.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021003171816.23275K-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"2VNU6.0.XR5.39Cdz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48078
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


	Dear Keith, and various Vo.,

	With regard to the text below and the subject header above.... may
we please know where "pumping" is discussed and how "pumping" is to be
accomplished and the author's or authors' meaning of "pumping" in this
context.

	Thanks you.

	Below you and maybe some others are contributing to and following
a thread I did not see begin.  However I have some questions, notes,
comments and answers to some of the questions and text found below:


	LEGEND:	

	N	=	NOTE
	C	=	Comment
	Q	=	Question(s)
	A	=	Answer


On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Keith Nagel wrote: 

> 
> Well, the energy is already in the cavity, 1/2 a photons worth.

	Q:	What energy?
	Q:	What cavity?
> 
> Is the recharging of large electrolytics due to ZPE?


	Q:	What is meant by 

	".....the recharging of large electrolytics....." ?


 Interesting
> idea, the aluminum oxide layer does indeed form plates
> of a hexagonal shape, if I remember correctly. Each plate
> has a small hole in the center, not sure of the size though.
> If so, what's the rectifying mechanism?


	Q:	Where are and what are the "plates" described, above?
	Q:	What is the context of the term used above, "rectifying"? 

 I know electrolytics
> have been used in the past as rectifiers of sorts, but
> we're talking about a microscale phenomena now...
> 
	N:	The aluminum oxide layer is on aluminum foil and presents
		  a polarized electrode.  This is further made polar by a
		  process called "forming".  This is accomplished during
		  manufacture by applying an electric current.
		  The oxide IS the dielectric.


> Electroplating is a real art, people do it because it's
> cheap to play with and low energy, but what a challenge
> to get repeatable and reliable results. My experiments
> with alloys were done without regard to production needs,
> I'd mix up the chemicals and plate until conditions were
> such that the alloy wouldn't plate right anymore.
> 
> Nick has the right idea, e-beam is the way to go here.

	Q:	What is E Beam to be used for?
> K.
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Jones Beene [mailto:jonesb9 pacbell.net]
>   Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 12:21 PM
>   To: vortex
>   Subject: Re: ZPE "pumping" proposal
> 
>   Hi Keith, Nick, Harvey and all,
> 
>   > Not sure why you two think that a high Q will somehow
>   > prevent resonance

 
   It's not so much in possibly preventing resonance but in hindering the
 capture or cohering the energy of a putative photon (if the Casimir
effect is due to an extremely high frequency photon and not some other
kind of boson or transverse wave).  If such an EM wave can be captured,
resonance will likely occur naturally. 

	N:	The "Casimir Effect" is experimentally demonstrated and the
			REASON for it occurring is a THEORY.

		_________	SIMPLFIED	__________

	A: 
	The effect is exhibited two conductors, usually described as flat
plates, which, if separated by VACUUM, will tend to move toward one
another.  The same amount of force is needed to separate the two plates
once they are together. 
	2 plates 12 inches by 12 inches that are one nanometer apart will
exhibit an attractive force about the same as air pressure, ~~14.7
lbs/in/sq.

	C: 

	The THEORY for this Casimir Effect is ElectroMagnetic Waves,
abbreviated as EMW, are everywhere and the conductors will tend to shield,
block or exclude EMW because they are conductors.  If the distance between
the conductors is "X" then EMW smaller than "X" way exist between the
plates.  EMW Larger than "X" will be excluded.  Further the THEORY
explains the longer EMW will push the plates toward one another.  As the
plates become closer and closer then the ratio of larger excluded EMW VS
smaller EMW between the 2 plates becomes greater and so the force becomes
greater.

	C:	If one believes this THEORY then this process depends on
the presence of EMW of generally broad bandwidth EMW wherein some of the
EMW are larger than the plate separation.  SO:  If there is little EMW in
the area one is expecting the effect to occur, then the effect will be
weaker than if there is much EMW in this same area. 

	C:	

	There are many many many PCET, or Pseudo Casimir Effect Theories. 

	Many of these come from varied sources but appear to primarily
come from Internet WWW Sites or Posts in which the CET, or Casimir Effect
Theories has been changed by one or more "contributors" to fit a different
model or need or use or idea. 

	It would be well to have everyone be aware of the differences
between CET, or Casimir Effect Theories as opposed to PCET or
	Pseudo Casimir Effect Theories.

	These is nothing wrong with new and varied theories.  However, to
use  new definitions, different defintions, modified definitions and give
these new or varied theories the same name is a good way to promote
confusion or worse.
	
	If someone DOES wish to offer modified theory is would be well if
they state this.

	_____________________________

	TEXT (A) 

>   > I don't understand how it is that you're expecting to
>   > see more than 1/2 a quantum of energy coupling into
>   > each of your microscopic resonators, if they're ringing
>   > at the fundamental only. The Casimir force works
>   > because the space outside the cavity contains much
>   > more ZPE than the space inside, due to the structuring
>   > of the vacuum which you introduce by forming the cavity. 

	N:	I do not know who wrote TEXT (A), above, but I would
like to know where this modified or new Casimir Effect Theory came
from.

	_____________________________

>   But in that version of Casimir experiments, one is looking only for a
> "pressure" effect, and what I am going for is a direct EM capture, ala
> the photoelectric effect... more specifically, if one can place very
> high crossed-fields with the right spacing, some of this free energy
> might cohere. 

	___________________
	N: Casimir Effect Theory and the Photo Electric Effect are not the
same thing. 
	___________________

>   > You should try it sometimes [electroplating lead], the results are
 simply
  >   > beautiful. Lead is remarkable in that it will plate in
>   > broad mono-atomically thin layers. The result appears much like
>   > the scales of a swordfish, brilliant rainbow colors due
>   > to the layers being 1/4 wavelength thick

	N:	Colors from thin layers are primarily due to the thin
layers being multiples of wavelengths of the color... provided the light
striking the substrate and the thin layers has wavelengths that are in the
correct range and the optical properties of the materials are appropriate
to exhibit these visual effects.  
	Another way to say this a thin layer that is 1/4 of some
wavelength of light does not guarantee such a color.
	_______________________________________
> 
	TEXT (B)

   I have never tried it, but I followed the work ($mega) that IBM did
 decades ago in trying to create SC circuits with lead and Josephson
junctions.  They gave up trying (or is it now a CIA "black" project) but
I'm not sure it was all in vain... BTW, I wonder if any Josephson
junctions of a particular configuration ever picked up any anomalous
energy? 
 
	N:	I do not know who wrote TEXT (B) but IBM can and does make
	JJ or Josephson Junctions, and these have been made with many
materials and continue to be made with many materials and probably will
still be continued to be made by IBM and many other groups.....and the
vast majority of the work is in the public domain. 

	____________________________________________________________
>   From NR:
> 
>   Having access to an e-beam evaporator, I can vouch that e-beam is a great
> way to put such films down, although one has to rotate your substrate
> somehow to get even coverage, if said substrate is a cylinder...
> 
>   That would be a problem for a cylinder ...and would Zr work with an
> evaporator?
>   b.p.= 4600 K. Perhaps as you suggest, ZrZn2 evaporates stoichiometrically
> from
>   an alloy source.  I doubt it though because the original discovers had
> trouble
>   with it.
> 
>   For making a prototype of a multi-nano-layered cylinder, if it ever got
> that
>   far, I was thinking about an automatic rotating, articulated DC powered
> mandrel
>   with maybe 5 or 6 plating tanks arranged "lazy susan " style where each
> workpiece would get a few seconds did plating and move to the next in a
> repeating process over several days (the insulator layers would be
> anodized). BUT could substantial ZrZn2 be coaxed to form at the interface of
> the Zn and Zr layers? maybe from a nano-sandwich, Zn-Zr-Zn
> 
>   If you have a very high precision power analyzer maybe you could get by
> with a
>   single layer but unfortunately, I think the power density, if it works at
> all,
>   will be a few micro-watts per cm^2 so multiple layers will be needed to
> get a
>   sure reading with normal meters and of course for usable output you could
> need many thousands of layers.
> 

	C: Multiple layer plating of metals is reasonably mature and there
are many methods to choose from. 	
	There are numerous texts and many more papers on the topics.
	It is not necessary to "re-invent" the processes.  Unless you want
		to.


>   Regards,
> 
>   Jones
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  3 15:34:40 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA29919;
	Thu, 3 Oct 2002 15:33:16 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 15:33:16 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Weapons-grade uranium headed to Iraq
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 08:32:39 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <m8hppu09nqpk59dh4flird393kij3nd9i2 4ax.com>
References: <llaipuole8rag3gc1vmo8mna7c8c8uut88 4ax.com> <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMEHNDFAA.knagel@gis.net> <v65kpus16lfrjpag9g566tp0atvi4v86jc@4ax.com> <3D9A45BF.8080102@rtpatlanta.com> <bdpkpu4rogb6k4en3fs9mfcdu2bqsdlddg@4ax.com> <3D9B016D.5080009@rtpatlanta.com> <i3ompu0rq9q2cks0272jpafo16k5shbifg@4ax.com> <a05111b1db9c1819817da@[209.23.136.38]>
In-Reply-To: <a05111b1db9c1819817da [209.23.136.38]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA29880
Resent-Message-ID: <"getlM2.0.PJ7.hMCdz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48079
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  thomas malloy's message of Thu, 3 Oct 2002 11:27:08 -0500:
Hi Thomas,
[snip]

You are entitled to your opinion. I think this thread has gone far enough, and this will be my last post on the subject.

>>
>>  >Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>>
>>I have heard both sides of this story. It appears to have been a 
>>tragic mix up in diplomacy.
>
>They want to get control of the West Bank so that they can bring 
>soldiers right into the heart of Israel.
>
>>
>>>Arafat wants nothing less than the destruction of
>>>the State of Israel. 
>>
>>This may have been his goal at one time, however I doubt that is 
>>still the case. He is well aware that such a goal is utterly 
>>unachievable. There are however other
>
>You may think that they no longer  want to destroy the state of 
>Israel, but you are wrong. They have an implacable hatred

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  3 17:31:24 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA28358;
	Thu, 3 Oct 2002 17:29:40 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 17:29:40 -0700
From: Erikbaard aol.com
Message-ID: <7d.2e90f50b.2ace3acd aol.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 20:29:01 EDT
Subject: "seeing red" -- new study supports orthodoxy
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10512
Resent-Message-ID: <"--qvo.0.-w6.p3Edz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48080
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

THE FOLLOWING RELEASE WAS RECEIVED FROM THE ROYAL ASTRONOMICAL 
SOCIETY, IN THE U.K., AND IS FORWARDED FOR YOUR INFORMATION.  
(FORWARDING DOES NOT IMPLY ENDORSEMENT BY THE AMERICAN 
ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY.)  Steve Maran, American Astronomical Society.

Date: 4 October 2002                     Ref. PN 02/26

Issued by: RAS Press Officer
Dr Jacqueline Mitton
Phone: +44 ((0)1223) 564914
Fax: +44 ((0)1223) 572892
E-mail: jmitton dial.pipex.com

RAS web: http://www.ras.org.uk

Contacts for this release:
Mr Ed Hawkins
School of Physics & Astronomy
University of Nottingham
NG7 2RD
E-mail: ppxeh nottingham.ac.uk

Prof Michael R. Merrifield
School of Physics & Astronomy
University of Nottingham
NG7 2RD
E-mail: michael.merrifield nottingham.ac.uk
Mobile: 07711 382612

ASTRONOMERS PUT QUASARS IN THEIR PLACE

A team of UK astronomers, led by postgraduate student Ed Hawkins, has made a
decisive step toward resolving an argument that has rumbled on in the
astronomical community for decades. The scientists from the University of
Nottingham have been investigating the properties of quasars and nearby
galaxies. As part of this study, they have overturned previous analyses
which suggested that these two classes of object are physically associated,
thus confirming the alternative, more widely-held view that quasars are some
of the most distant objects in the Universe.

Quasars are star-like in appearance, but seem to be flying away from Earth
at velocities comparable to the speed of light. The majority of astronomers
believe that this high speed is a result of the expansion of the Universe,
and that the quasars are traveling so fast because they are at enormous
distances. However, a vociferous minority, including such notable figures as
the great astronomer Fred Hoyle, has argued forcefully that quasars are much
closer by. In particular, they have pointed to apparent associations between
quasars and nearby galaxies, suggesting that the quasars have somehow been
ejected from these galaxies in the recent past.

One of the pieces of evidence to support this idea was the tentative
discovery that quasars only seem to move away from galaxies at particular
speeds: for example, a surprisingly large number of quasars seem to be
moving relative to neighbouring galaxies at speeds of 59% of the speed of
light. If the quasars were actually on the far side of the Universe, how
would they know to move at exactly 59% of the speed of light relative to a
completely unrelated foreground galaxy?

Very little progress has been made toward resolving this controversy,
essentially because there just hasn't been enough data to tell whether the
apparent associations between galaxies and quasars are real or just
coincidences. However, this has all changed with two newly-completed huge
surveys undertaken with the Anglo-Australian Telescope, one measuring the
positions and velocities of 200,000 galaxies, and the other measuring the
same quantities for 25,000 quasars. "These enormous new data sets offered a
great opportunity to take another look at this question," said Hawkins. "To
do as fair a test as possible, we discussed with the supporters of both
theories what they would expect to see before we analyzed the data."

By carefully sifting through these datasets, Hawkins and collaborators found
1647 examples of quasars that appear close to galaxies, and hence might be
associated. Sadly for the nearby-quasar supporters, there was no excess of
quasars moving at 59% of the speed of light, or any of the other "magic
speeds" that had previously been tentatively identified. Without this
evidence to support an association between quasars and galaxies, the case
for quasars being flung out of nearby galaxies is much weakened.

Hawkins concluded "it's a shame, as it would have been great to find that
the conventional view of quasars is all wrong. However, it's also something
of a relief to know that most astronomers have not been barking up
completely the wrong tree for the last thirty years."

NOTES
The analysis, by Ed Hawkins, Steve Maddox and Michael Merrifield, will
appear in the October 11th issue of Monthly Notices of the Royal
Astronomical Society.

The data analysed in this study came from the 2dF (2-degree field) Galaxy
Redshift Survey (http://as1.chem.nottingham.ac.uk/~TDFgg/), and the 2dF
Quasar Redshift Survey (http://www.2dfquasar.org/).

          -end-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  3 19:38:07 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA15358;
	Thu, 3 Oct 2002 19:36:24 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 19:36:24 -0700
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>,
        "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: RE: ZPE "pumping" and Casismir Effect
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:51:29 -0400
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMOEIKDFAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021003171816.23275K-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"STz7J1.0.ul3.dwFdz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48081
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi John.

Where to begin....

Your write:
	Q:	What energy?
	A: Zero point energy
	Q:	What cavity?
	A The layered metal sandwich that Jones is proposing.

	Q:	What is meant by
	".....the recharging of large electrolytics....." ?
	A: Uhmmm... When you discharge the cap, it recharges slowly
		over time. I believe this is referred to as
		dielectric soakage by THOSE WHO KNOW, like this
		guy.
	http://www.national.com/rap/Application/0,1570,28,00.html

 Interesting
> idea, the aluminum oxide layer does indeed form plates
> of a hexagonal shape, if I remember correctly. Each plate
> has a small hole in the center, not sure of the size though.
> If so, what's the rectifying mechanism?


	Q:	Where are and what are the "plates" described, above?
	A: What part of "Aluminum oxide layer does indeed form hexagonal plates"
		don't you understand John? How about, "The oxide grows on
		the aluminum surface as a grid of hexagonal platelets"?

	Q:	What is the context of the term used above, "rectifying"?
	A: Well, as the ZPE is A/C, and the soakage is DC, something's rectifying.
		If, in fact, the two things (ZPE and soakage) are even related.

	N:	The aluminum oxide layer is on aluminum foil and presents
		  a polarized electrode.  This is further made polar by a
		  process called "forming".  This is accomplished during
		  manufacture by applying an electric current.
		  The oxide IS the dielectric.

	No kidding, Holmes....(grin)


> Nick has the right idea, e-beam is the way to go here.

	Q:	What is E Beam to be used for?
	A: For making metal layers. See that part of Nicks message that YOU
YOURSELF quote in your post.

<Big snip of John presenting his PCET>

>   > I don't understand how it is that you're expecting to
>   > see more than 1/2 a quantum of energy coupling into
>   > each of your microscopic resonators, if they're ringing
>   > at the fundamental only. The Casimir force works
>   > because the space outside the cavity contains much
>   > more ZPE than the space inside, due to the structuring
>   > of the vacuum which you introduce by forming the cavity.

	N:	I do not know who wrote TEXT (A), above, but I would
like to know where this modified or new Casimir Effect Theory came
from.

	A: I did. Where did I get these crazy ideas from? Why, Boyer of
		course. Mind you, he's just some nutty PhD at CCNY who
		got his doctorate solving for the casimir force between
		two spheres, but I suspect if he's badly mistaken about
		the nature of the ZPE Casimir would have told him so
		when they met at Phillips Research Labs in '68.

		1/2 quantum at EVERY frequency outside the cavity.
		1/2 quantum at ONLY the resonant frequency & harmonics inside the cavity.

		Integrate both expressions, and there's an energy difference,
		less inside than outside. Hence the force.
	_____________________________


	N:	Colors from thin layers are primarily due to the thin
layers being multiples of wavelengths of the color... provided the light
striking the substrate and the thin layers has wavelengths that are in the
correct range and the optical properties of the materials are appropriate
to exhibit these visual effects.
	Another way to say this a thin layer that is 1/4 of some
wavelength of light does not guarantee such a color.

	A: Not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you thinking that
		it's impossible to electroplate a monolayer of metal?

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct  3 22:27:16 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA24125;
	Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:25:46 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:25:46 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: ZPE "pumping" and Casismir Effect
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 15:25:02 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <f89qpugs38fmf8aubk9nct1487tspn4240 4ax.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021003171816.23275K-100000 college.antioch-college.edu> <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMOEIKDFAA.knagel@gis.net>
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMOEIKDFAA.knagel gis.net>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA24082
Resent-Message-ID: <"A6giN2.0.ou5.PPIdz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48082
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Keith Nagel's message of Thu, 3 Oct 2002 22:51:29 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>	A: I did. Where did I get these crazy ideas from? Why, Boyer of
>		course. Mind you, he's just some nutty PhD at CCNY who
>		got his doctorate solving for the casimir force between
>		two spheres, but I suspect if he's badly mistaken about
>		the nature of the ZPE Casimir would have told him so
>		when they met at Phillips Research Labs in '68.
>
>		1/2 quantum at EVERY frequency outside the cavity.
>		1/2 quantum at ONLY the resonant frequency & harmonics inside the cavity.
>
>		Integrate both expressions, and there's an energy difference,
>		less inside than outside. Hence the force.
[snip]
As I understand it, the frequencies inside the cavity are not limited to harmonics of the resonant frequency, but include all frequencies that are higher than the resonant frequency. In short the difference between inside and outside is very small, because most of the energy in the spectrum is in the high end, which exists both inside and outside. Only the very bottom of the spectrum is excluded from the cavity.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  4 09:09:35 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA31976;
	Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:08:14 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:08:14 -0700
Message-ID: <002201c26bd8$f2836300$a150ccd1 asus>
From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <7d.2e90f50b.2ace3acd aol.com>
Subject: Re: "seeing red" -- new study supports orthodoxy
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 10:40:53 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"bT6ye2.0.Yp7.jpRdz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48083
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


----- Original Message -----
From: <Erikbaard aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 5:29 PM
Subject: "seeing red" -- new study supports orthodoxy


> THE FOLLOWING RELEASE WAS RECEIVED FROM THE ROYAL ASTRONOMICAL
> SOCIETY, IN THE U.K., AND IS FORWARDED FOR YOUR INFORMATION.
> (FORWARDING DOES NOT IMPLY ENDORSEMENT BY THE AMERICAN
> ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY.)  Steve Maran, American Astronomical Society.
>
> Date: 4 October 2002                     Ref. PN 02/26
>
> Issued by: RAS Press Officer
> Dr Jacqueline Mitton
> Phone: +44 ((0)1223) 564914
> Fax: +44 ((0)1223) 572892
> E-mail: jmitton dial.pipex.com
>
> RAS web: http://www.ras.org.uk
>
> Contacts for this release:
> Mr Ed Hawkins
> School of Physics & Astronomy
> University of Nottingham
> NG7 2RD
> E-mail: ppxeh nottingham.ac.uk
>
> Prof Michael R. Merrifield
> School of Physics & Astronomy
> University of Nottingham
> NG7 2RD
> E-mail: michael.merrifield nottingham.ac.uk
> Mobile: 07711 382612
>
> ASTRONOMERS PUT QUASARS IN THEIR PLACE
>
> A team of UK astronomers, led by postgraduate student Ed Hawkins, has made
a
> decisive step toward resolving an argument that has rumbled on in the
> astronomical community for decades. The scientists from the University of
> Nottingham have been investigating the properties of quasars and nearby
> galaxies. As part of this study, they have overturned previous analyses
> which suggested that these two classes of object are physically
associated,
> thus confirming the alternative, more widely-held view that quasars are
some
> of the most distant objects in the Universe.
>
> Quasars are star-like in appearance, but seem to be flying away from Earth
> at velocities comparable to the speed of light. The majority of
astronomers
> believe that this high speed is a result of the expansion of the Universe,
> and that the quasars are traveling so fast because they are at enormous
> distances. However, a vociferous minority, including such notable figures
as
> the great astronomer Fred Hoyle, has argued forcefully that quasars are
much
> closer by. In particular, they have pointed to apparent associations
between
> quasars and nearby galaxies, suggesting that the quasars have somehow been
> ejected from these galaxies in the recent past.
>
> One of the pieces of evidence to support this idea was the tentative
> discovery that quasars only seem to move away from galaxies at particular
> speeds: for example, a surprisingly large number of quasars seem to be
> moving relative to neighbouring galaxies at speeds of 59% of the speed of
> light. If the quasars were actually on the far side of the Universe, how
> would they know to move at exactly 59% of the speed of light relative to a
> completely unrelated foreground galaxy?
>
> Very little progress has been made toward resolving this controversy,
> essentially because there just hasn't been enough data to tell whether the
> apparent associations between galaxies and quasars are real or just
> coincidences. However, this has all changed with two newly-completed huge
> surveys undertaken with the Anglo-Australian Telescope, one measuring the
> positions and velocities of 200,000 galaxies, and the other measuring the
> same quantities for 25,000 quasars. "These enormous new data sets offered
a
> great opportunity to take another look at this question," said Hawkins.
"To
> do as fair a test as possible, we discussed with the supporters of both
> theories what they would expect to see before we analyzed the data."
>
> By carefully sifting through these datasets, Hawkins and collaborators
found
> 1647 examples of quasars that appear close to galaxies, and hence might be
> associated. Sadly for the nearby-quasar supporters, there was no excess of
> quasars moving at 59% of the speed of light, or any of the other "magic
> speeds" that had previously been tentatively identified. Without this
> evidence to support an association between quasars and galaxies, the case
> for quasars being flung out of nearby galaxies is much weakened.
>
> Hawkins concluded "it's a shame, as it would have been great to find that
> the conventional view of quasars is all wrong. However, it's also
something
> of a relief to know that most astronomers have not been barking up
> completely the wrong tree for the last thirty years."
----------------------------------

This study counters only one aspect of Arp's propsal that quasars are local,
not distant. More persuasive evidence is in gas bridges which appear to
connect quasars with the hearts of proximate galaxies. Obviously if the
quasars are local then some unknown process is responsible for the red
shifts and an apparent ordering of red shifts with distance from the
proximate galaxies. Arp's limited observations indicated quantization of red
shifts, which would be remarkable in itself.

The study cited, with a wide field camera, does not have the resolution to
study the gas bridges Arp saw in available images. Those in charge of
adequate telescopes have not been notably cooperative in allocating
observation time to look for gas bridges.

The published report, while a datum point, does not demolish Arp's proposal.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  4 09:59:19 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA16421;
	Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:47:23 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:47:23 -0700
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 12:47:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
cc: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: RE: ZPE "pumping" and Casismir Effect
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMOEIKDFAA.knagel gis.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021004123419.2471G-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"jcjR82.0.Q04.ROSdz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48084
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

y

	Dear  KN,

	Thanks, notes in TEXT below

On Thu, 3 Oct 2002, Keith Nagel wrote:

> Hi John.
> 
> Where to begin....
> 
> Your write:
> 	Q:	What energy?
> 	A: Zero point energy
> 	Q:	What cavity?
> 	A The layered metal sandwich that Jones is proposing.
> 
	I would like to know more about this structure.

> 	Q:	What is meant by
> 	".....the recharging of large electrolytics....." ?
> 	A: Uhmmm... When you discharge the cap, it recharges slowly
> 		over time. I believe this is referred to as
> 		dielectric soakage by THOSE WHO KNOW, like this
> 		guy.
> 	http://www.national.com/rap/Application/0,1570,28,00.html
> 

	Bob Pease is GREAT.  But read his text.... this is about oil
filled caps and certain other types of dielectics and not, per se about
electrolytic caps. 
	I too know something about dielectics.
	some caps have been known to re-acquire a charge big enough to
cause damage and injury or are lethal.
	Soakage is only one of many many many terms and properties of
dielectrics.

>  Interesting
> > idea, the aluminum oxide layer does indeed form plates
> > of a hexagonal shape, if I remember correctly. Each plate
> > has a small hole in the center, not sure of the size though.
> > If so, what's the rectifying mechanism?
> 
> 
> 	Q:	Where are and what are the "plates" described, above?
> 	A:
	
	 What part of "Aluminum oxide layer does indeed form hexagonal plates"
> 		don't you understand John? How about, "The oxide grows on
> 		the aluminum surface as a grid of hexagonal platelets"?
> 
	Can you please let me know is this from a specific reference or a
referese wherein there is evidence of or a study about Al oxide forming
these structures in all conditions?
	I have personally been involved with and studied Al oxides for
over 15 years and have found the oxide can take many forms from amorphous
to beautiful crystals, called sapphire and ruby, the color being due to
chromophores.

> 	Q:	What is the context of the term used above, "rectifying"?
>
 	A: Well, as the ZPE is A/C, and the soakage is DC, something's
rectifying. 

	What evidences of this aare there... are we taking term X and term
Y and term Z and simply mixing them on paper?
	If yes, then please call it a theory.

	I am not trying to argue or make any effort but to come to
accurate text.

> 		If, in fact, the two things (ZPE and soakage) are even related.
> 
> 	N:	The aluminum oxide layer is on aluminum foil and presents
> 		  a polarized electrode.  This is further made polar by a
> 		  process called "forming".  This is accomplished during
> 		  manufacture by applying an electric current.
> 		  The oxide IS the dielectric.
> 
> 	No kidding, Holmes....(grin)
> 
> 
> > Nick has the right idea, e-beam is the way to go here.
> 
> 	Q:	What is E Beam to be used for?
> 	A: For making metal layers. See that part of Nicks message that YOU
> YOURSELF quote in your post.
> 

> <Big snip of John presenting his PCET>
> 
> >   > I don't understand how it is that you're expecting to
> >   > see more than 1/2 a quantum of energy coupling into
> >   > each of your microscopic resonators, if they're ringing
> >   > at the fundamental only. The Casimir force works
> >   > because the space outside the cavity contains much
> >   > more ZPE than the space inside, due to the structuring
> >   > of the vacuum which you introduce by forming the cavity.
> 
> 	N:	I do not know who wrote TEXT (A), above, but I would
> like to know where this modified or new Casimir Effect Theory came
> from.
> 
> 	A: I did. Where did I get these crazy ideas from? Why, Boyer of
> 		course. Mind you, he's just some nutty PhD at CCNY who
> 		got his doctorate solving for the casimir force between
> 		two spheres, but I suspect if he's badly mistaken about
> 		the nature of the ZPE Casimir would have told him so
> 		when they met at Phillips Research Labs in '68.

	Quantum Theory is just that.  A theory.  If an application is
demonstrated, that is one thing, a plan on paper is another.

	All I am after is what part is guessed at or put together as a
string of ideas....
	And what part is known or becoming known.


> 
> 		1/2 quantum at EVERY frequency outside the cavity.
> 		1/2 quantum at ONLY the resonant frequency & harmonics inside
> the cavity. 

		quantum of WHAT?

> 
> 		Integrate both expressions, and there's an energy difference,
> 		less inside than outside. Hence the force.
> 	_____________________________
> 
> 
> 	N:	Colors from thin layers are primarily due to the thin
> layers being multiples of wavelengths of the color... provided the light
> striking the substrate and the thin layers has wavelengths that are in the
> correct range and the optical properties of the materials are appropriate
> to exhibit these visual effects.
> 	Another way to say this a thin layer that is 1/4 of some
> wavelength of light does not guarantee such a color.
> 

> 	A: Not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you thinking that
> 		it's impossible to electroplate a monolayer of metal?

	Absolutely not.  I am only saying that thin layer interference
optical effects are usually due to layers thicker than 1/4 WL... and the
color or even if you will get a color is dependent on many factors.

	It is OK to guess.... but many people reading such texts begin to
thing...oh..this must be true and has been demonstrated because the 
words came from so and so.

	Not knocking you only looking to see the roots and if they are
there.  


					JH
> 
> K.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  4 12:08:15 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA21500;
	Fri, 4 Oct 2002 12:05:04 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 12:05:04 -0700
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1904 01:41:07 -0700
Subject: Re: "seeing red" -- new study supports orthodoxy
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
CC: Erik Baard <erikbaard aol.com>
Message-ID: <17B3.473C%editor infinite-energy.com>
In-Reply-To: <7d.2e90f50b.2ace3acd aol.com>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"1UvNB.0.qF5.WPUdz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48085
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On 10/3/02 5:29 PM, "Erikbaard aol.com" <Erikbaard@aol.com> wrote:

> THE FOLLOWING RELEASE WAS RECEIVED FROM THE ROYAL ASTRONOMICAL
> SOCIETY, IN THE U.K., AND IS FORWARDED FOR YOUR INFORMATION.
> (FORWARDING DOES NOT IMPLY ENDORSEMENT BY THE AMERICAN
> ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY.)  Steve Maran, American Astronomical Society.


The new study most definitely DOES NOT support orthodoxy. All it  proves or
illuminates is the unending attempt of the Big Bangers to fit any and all
data to the Big Bang hypothesis. I do not even see any comprehensive
discussion in the news release of the quantization of red-shift phenomenon
that appears an several (not just one) value of z.  In any event,
quantization of z among quasars is only one of the 30+ major problems,
listed by astronomer Tom Van Flandern, against the Big Bang.

I stand with astronomer Geoffrey Burbidge's remark:

"Big bang cosmology is probably as widely believed as has been any theory in
the history of Western civilization. It rests, however, on many untested,
and in some cases untestable assumptions. Indeed the big bang cosmology has
become a bandwagon of thought that reflects faith as much as objective
truth..."


- Gene Mallove



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  4 12:26:35 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA31978;
	Fri, 4 Oct 2002 12:24:23 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 12:24:23 -0700
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 16:24:11 -0700
Subject: FW: "seeing red" -- new study supports orthodoxy
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <B9C3712B.473F%editor infinite-energy.com>
In-Reply-To: <17B3.473C%editor infinite-energy.com>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"-LB0U1.0.ap7.chUdz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48086
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Oops! -- calendar/clock was not set properly.
- Gene

------ Forwarded Message
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1904 01:41:07 -0700
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: Erik Baard <erikbaard aol.com>
Subject: Re: "seeing red" -- new study supports orthodoxy
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 12:05:04 -0700

On 10/3/02 5:29 PM, "Erikbaard aol.com" <Erikbaard@aol.com> wrote:

> THE FOLLOWING RELEASE WAS RECEIVED FROM THE ROYAL ASTRONOMICAL
> SOCIETY, IN THE U.K., AND IS FORWARDED FOR YOUR INFORMATION.
> (FORWARDING DOES NOT IMPLY ENDORSEMENT BY THE AMERICAN
> ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY.)  Steve Maran, American Astronomical Society.


The new study most definitely DOES NOT support orthodoxy. All it  proves or
illuminates is the unending attempt of the Big Bangers to fit any and all
data to the Big Bang hypothesis. I do not even see any comprehensive
discussion in the news release of the quantization of red-shift phenomenon
that appears an several (not just one) value of z.  In any event,
quantization of z among quasars is only one of the 30+ major problems,
listed by astronomer Tom Van Flandern, against the Big Bang.

I stand with astronomer Geoffrey Burbidge's remark:

"Big bang cosmology is probably as widely believed as has been any theory in
the history of Western civilization. It rests, however, on many untested,
and in some cases untestable assumptions. Indeed the big bang cosmology has
become a bandwagon of thought that reflects faith as much as objective
truth..."


- Gene Mallove





------ End of Forwarded Message

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  4 12:29:39 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA01488;
	Fri, 4 Oct 2002 12:27:48 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 12:27:48 -0700
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 12:25:17 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: ZPE "pumping" and Casismir Effect
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-id: <005201c26bdb$c60632a0$0a016ea8 cpq>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004F_01C26BA1.19643720"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"7ueOH1.0.AN.qkUdz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48087
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C26BA1.19643720
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>

> Q: What is meant by ".....the recharging of large electrolytics....." =
?

> A: Uhmmm... When you discharge the cap, it recharges slowly
> over time. I believe this is referred to as dielectric soakage by
>THOSE WHO KNOW, like this guy.
> http://www.national.com/rap/Application/0,1570,28,00.html

I was hoping that Rick Monteverde might weigh in on this, as there were =
extended
threads on Vortex a few years back concerning same in which he seemed to =
have
done some work - and prior to that there was a lot of stuff on Keely.net =
- if
anybody tunes in there, they might remember the details.

I most certainly don't want to be confused with THOSE WHO KNOW, but it =
seems
there could be a lot going on here besides a temporary dielectric =
effect, if
that's all that "soakage" is. For instance, besides some kind of ZPE
rectification there is "The Zaev-effect" and other related ideas on:
http://www.overunity-theory.de/

I found the following message from Robert Calloway that has an =
interesting circuit
idea which I may try to wire up today as I have some of these monster =
caps (that
I have never noticed to self-recharge). It's in Keely archives:

"Hello Jim, I have been saying all along, people need to pay attention =
to
capacitors. I deal with 1,000,000 MFD and 500,000 MFD 25VDC capacitors =
all the
time and the extra potential you receive from them is worth looking at. =
Do you
want to see some more? Wire in a dual DC relay which will charge the =
capacitors from a battery only when the relay drops out. In other words, =
wire it up so
that the relay only uses power off the capacitors. The charge will be
instantaneous to the capacitors for a microsecond. Then apply a load to =
the
capacitors through the relay.

This is important.. only apply the load off the capacitors through the
relay to keep from drawing current off the battery. Do not use the =
current
directly off the capacitor as you are defeating the purpose. If you want =
to get really into
it.... wire in a 3 pole relay with a timer to dual capacitors and charge =
your battery
back with the extra charge. I have schematics available if anyone wants =
them.

PS: You must excite the capacitors from the battery to get the process =
going."
- Robert H. Calloway


As an add-on to this circuit , wonder if a 10 lb coil of Litz wire in =
series or parallel
with the cap would contribute anything except a few square miles of =
available
conductor surface area?  Would it be a ringer or a dead-ringer  ;-}

Also what about one of those funky Bearden loads, i.e. that burnt out =
resistor,
HA!

BTW, what ever happened to the guy from Seattle (McKay ??) that had the
supposedly great feedback tank circuit that was said to be massively OU?

------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C26BA1.19643720
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; =
MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial
}
</STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4916.2300" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>From: "Keith Nagel" &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:knagel gis.net">knagel@gis.net</A>&gt;<BR><BR>&gt; Q: =
What is meant=20
by ".....the recharging of large electrolytics....." ?<BR><BR>&gt; A: =
Uhmmm...=20
When you discharge the cap, it recharges slowly<BR>&gt; over time. I =
believe=20
this is referred to as dielectric soakage by<BR>&gt;THOSE WHO KNOW, like =
this=20
guy.<BR>&gt; <A=20
href=3D"http://www.national.com/rap/Application/0,1570,28,00.html">http:/=
/www.national.com/rap/Application/0,1570,28,00.html</A><BR><BR>I=20
was hoping that Rick Monteverde might weigh in on this, as there were=20
extended<BR>threads on Vortex a few years back concerning same in which =
he=20
seemed to have<BR>done some work - and prior to that there was a lot of =
stuff on=20
Keely.net - if<BR>anybody tunes in there, they might remember the=20
details.<BR><BR>I most certainly don't want to be confused with THOSE =
WHO KNOW,=20
but it seems<BR>there could be a lot going on here besides a temporary=20
dielectric effect, if<BR>that's all that "soakage" is. For instance, =
besides=20
some kind of ZPE<BR>rectification there is "The Zaev-effect" and other =
related=20
ideas on:<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.overunity-theory.de/">http://www.overunity-theory.de/<=
/A><BR><BR>I=20
found the following message from&nbsp;Robert Calloway that has an =
interesting=20
circuit<BR>idea which I may try to wire up today as I have some of these =
monster=20
caps (that<BR>I have never noticed to self-recharge). It's in Keely=20
archives:<BR><BR>"Hello Jim, I have been saying all along, people need =
to pay=20
attention to<BR>capacitors. I deal with 1,000,000 MFD and 500,000 MFD =
25VDC=20
capacitors all the<BR>time and the extra potential you receive from them =
is=20
worth looking at. Do you<BR>want to see some more? Wire in a dual DC =
relay which=20
will charge the capacitors from a battery only when the relay drops out. =
In=20
other words, wire it up so<BR>that the relay only uses power off the =
capacitors.=20
The charge will be<BR>instantaneous to the capacitors for a microsecond. =
Then=20
apply a load to the<BR>capacitors through the relay.<BR><BR>This is =
important..=20
only apply the load off the capacitors through the<BR>relay to keep from =
drawing=20
current off the battery. Do not use the current<BR>directly off the =
capacitor as=20
you are defeating the purpose. If you want to get really into<BR>it.... =
wire in=20
a 3 pole relay with a timer to dual capacitors and charge your =
battery<BR>back=20
with the extra charge. I have schematics available if anyone wants=20
them.<BR><BR>PS: You must excite the capacitors from the battery to get =
the=20
process going."<BR>- Robert H. Calloway<BR><BR><BR>As an add-on to this =
circuit=20
, wonder if a 10 lb coil of Litz wire in series or parallel<BR>with the =
cap=20
would contribute anything except a few square miles of =
available<BR>conductor=20
surface area?&nbsp; Would it be a ringer or a dead-ringer&nbsp; =
;-}<BR><BR>Also=20
what about one of those funky Bearden loads, i.e. that burnt out=20
resistor,<BR>HA!<BR><BR>BTW, what ever happened to the guy from Seattle =
(McKay=20
??) that had the<BR>supposedly great feedback tank circuit that was said =
to be=20
massively OU?<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C26BA1.19643720--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  4 12:31:41 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA02254;
	Fri, 4 Oct 2002 12:28:57 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 12:28:57 -0700
From: Erikbaard aol.com
Message-ID: <16c.14ea7799.2acf45ad aol.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 15:27:41 EDT
Subject: Re: "seeing red" -- new study supports orthodoxy
To: editor infinite-energy.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10512
Resent-Message-ID: <"CkPvW.0._Y.ulUdz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48088
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

<PRE>My statement was simply that the report provides evidence that's generally 
interpreted to fall within orthodoxy, not that the case was closed.  I even 
edited myself, using the word "supports" rather than "upholds" (as I first 
typed it) because I didn't want people thinking that my message was a 
declaration that this was a breakthrough to end the debate.  I'm not 
qualified to say that, and neither are the other respondents.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  4 13:41:20 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA03715;
	Fri, 4 Oct 2002 13:36:51 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 13:36:51 -0700
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 16:37:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
cc: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>,
        Erik Baard <erikbaard aol.com>
Subject: Re: "seeing red" -- new study supports orthodoxy
In-Reply-To: <17B3.473C%editor infinite-energy.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021004162529.22787A-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"PzxC62.0.zv.ZlVdz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48089
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Gene and Vo.,

	In the experiences and-or opinions of the collective:

	I am looking to poll the vortex population about real world
sciences as oppsed to theories or suppositions.
	In this effort I am hoping the group will give opinion or opinion
and maybe some comment and-or pointers to publication and so on.
	To make it easier a scale of 1 to 10 may be used to respond,
should one choose to:

	Astronomical theories that you know to be supportable by
experiments on Earth. As  Examples:

	(A)	 
		As one heats something the Wavelength, abbreviated as WL, of the
optical radiation given off progresses from longer WL to shorter WL would
be a 10.

	(B)	

		Acceleration of vapor jets from Earth type stars is caused
by electrical charges generated by magneto-electrical dynamos from
rotation of the core of the star and this rotation is caused by invisible
micro black holes would be a 1.


		_____________________________________

	The POLL:	Please rate topics from 1 to 10

	Dark Matter
	Dark Energy
	cold energy
	red shift from acceleration[s]
	matter moving Faster Than Light, or FTL
	electric charge moving FTL
	any happenstance occurring FTL

							JH


On Fri, 1 Jan 1904, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

> On 10/3/02 5:29 PM, "Erikbaard aol.com" <Erikbaard@aol.com> wrote:
> 
> > THE FOLLOWING RELEASE WAS RECEIVED FROM THE ROYAL ASTRONOMICAL
> > SOCIETY, IN THE U.K., AND IS FORWARDED FOR YOUR INFORMATION.
> > (FORWARDING DOES NOT IMPLY ENDORSEMENT BY THE AMERICAN
> > ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY.)  Steve Maran, American Astronomical Society.
> 
> 
> The new study most definitely DOES NOT support orthodoxy. All it  proves or
> illuminates is the unending attempt of the Big Bangers to fit any and all
> data to the Big Bang hypothesis. I do not even see any comprehensive
> discussion in the news release of the quantization of red-shift phenomenon
> that appears an several (not just one) value of z.  In any event,
> quantization of z among quasars is only one of the 30+ major problems,
> listed by astronomer Tom Van Flandern, against the Big Bang.
> 
> I stand with astronomer Geoffrey Burbidge's remark:
> 
> "Big bang cosmology is probably as widely believed as has been any theory in
> the history of Western civilization. It rests, however, on many untested,
> and in some cases untestable assumptions. Indeed the big bang cosmology has
> become a bandwagon of thought that reflects faith as much as objective
> truth..."
> 
> 
> - Gene Mallove
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  4 13:53:57 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA11690;
	Fri, 4 Oct 2002 13:52:22 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 13:52:22 -0700
Message-ID: <3D9E0058.83DA13F2 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2002 13:55:52 -0700
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472  (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Oct 04, 2002]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"yWe8r3.0.as2.6-Vdz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48090
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Oct 04, 2002
Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 16:43:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 4 Oct 02   Washington, DC

1. CELL-PHONE LAWSUIT: THE LAWS OF PHYSICS ARE UPHELD.  A federal
judge dismissed an $800M lawsuit filed by a Maryland neurologist
who claimed his brain cancer was caused by cell phone use.  There
is, of course, no claim so preposterous that an expert cannot be
found to vouch for it.  This case rested on research by Swedish
oncologist Lennart Hardell, who published a study in this month's
European Journal of Cancer Prevention that found long-term users
of analog cell phones were at least 30 percent more likely than
nonusers to develop brain tumors.  His claim was widely reported
by the media. However, a review of epidemiological research on
cell phone use, commissioned by the Swedish Radiation Protection
Authority, described Hardell's study as "non-informative" and
concluded that "there is no scientific evidence for a causal
association between the use of cellular phones and cancer."  

2. EMF AND CANCER: GETTING THE WRONG ANSWER THE HARD WAY.  From
the beginning, it was clear that the Hardell study got the wrong
answer.  All known cancer-inducing agents, including radiation,
certain chemicals and a few viruses, act by breaking chemical
bonds to produce mutant strands of DNA.  Photons with wavelengths
longer than the near ultraviolet do not have enough energy to
break a chemical bond in DNA.  Case closed.  If epidemiology
comes up with a different answer, the study is simply wrong.  

3. FREE ELECTRICITY: JUDGE RULES AGAINST DENNIS LEE.  As part of
his 50-state tour (WN 7 Sep 01), the notorious con man made his
pitch in Spokane, WA on August 28, 2001.  It was one state too
many.  The Washington Attorney General charged Lee with violating
the state's consumer protection laws by making claims that are
deceptive and misleading.  In particular, Lee claims to have the
world's most efficient motor, the "Hummingbird Motor," that
produces five times as much energy as it takes to run it. 
Combined with the "Sundance Generator" that is 100% efficient,
this could power your home, with plenty of electricity left over
to sell.  Armed with an affidavit by a physicist familiar with
Lee's free energy scams, the State sought a summary judgement.  
Lee made no attempt to counter the scientific arguments, 
objecting to the State's motion only on procedural grounds.  
Last Friday, the judge granted the summary judgement against Lee,
denying Lee a chance to bamboozle scientifically innocent jurors. 

4. MISSILE DEFENSE: IT BECOMES AN ISSUE IN THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS.
Democratic Senator Tim Johnson is urging voters to elect him to
help hold the Democratic majority in the Senate, thus keeping the
states's senior senator, Tom Daschle, as majority leader.  But
Johnson's opponent, John Thune has unexpectedly made missile
defense a major issue in his campaign, running ads that accuse
Johnson of voting against Bush's missile defense plan 29 times.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  4 16:23:11 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA13444;
	Fri, 4 Oct 2002 16:21:49 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 16:21:49 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Black holes
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 09:21:13 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <um7spus8s70fgj6af8m4ves1kl579bgtii 4ax.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA13425
Resent-Message-ID: <"-bIjL1.0.-H3.DAYdz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48091
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi,

Consider matter being sucked into a black hole. It will almost always have some initial angular momentum. If angular momentum is conserved, then there must be a minimal radius at which the circumferential velocity equals the speed of light, for any given initial angular momentum. This radius would then be the minimum radius to which the matter involved could shrink, thus preventing it from collapsing into a singularity.
Normal matter can't reach the speed of light, according to SR, so the radius for normal matter would be > than the radius for light itself.
For light this is the Schwarzschild radius. That would seem to imply that nothing else can make it past the Schwarzschild radius, without being converted completely into energy, which even then can't get any closer.

My conclusion:- Black holes are empty circulating rings of pure EM energy.
There is no singularity at the core, in fact there is no core at all.

Ok, so now please tell me why this reasoning is invalid. :)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct  4 16:34:20 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA17763;
	Fri, 4 Oct 2002 16:33:00 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 16:33:00 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Oct 04, 2002]
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 09:32:25 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <v49spug6e1s6fdb2gv1a2q4vgb45aumsp3 4ax.com>
References: <3D9E0058.83DA13F2 ix.netcom.com>
In-Reply-To: <3D9E0058.83DA13F2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA17710
Resent-Message-ID: <"zWsaZ.0.PL4.hKYdz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48092
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

In reply to  Akira Kawasaki's message of Fri, 04 Oct 2002 13:55:52 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>2. EMF AND CANCER: GETTING THE WRONG ANSWER THE HARD WAY.  From
>the beginning, it was clear that the Hardell study got the wrong
>answer.  All known cancer-inducing agents, including radiation,
>certain chemicals and a few viruses, act by breaking chemical
>bonds to produce mutant strands of DNA.  Photons with wavelengths
>longer than the near ultraviolet do not have enough energy to
>break a chemical bond in DNA.  Case closed.  If epidemiology
>comes up with a different answer, the study is simply wrong.  
[snip]
Which of course explains why microwave ovens don't work. ;)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  5 00:22:29 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA08071;
	Sat, 5 Oct 2002 00:21:07 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 00:21:07 -0700
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: ZPE "pumping" and Casismir Effect
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 03:36:18 -0400
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMAEJBDFAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021004123419.2471G-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
Importance: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
X-Rcpt-To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"VruSN3.0.1-1.ZBfdz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48093
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi John.

>	Can you please let me know is this from a specific reference or a
>referese wherein there is evidence of or a study about Al oxide forming
>these structures in all conditions?

No, I was not claiming under
all possible conditions you could think of for anodizing
that you'd get nice hexagonal arrays. Many systems can be
arm twisted into showing the effect though.

You must do some researh here, only you can convince you. This thing between
us
would be a good place to start. Don't let the sun burn a hole
in your eyes. Go now, take your horse and plow, and roll over the bones
of the dead.

>	What evidences of this aare there... are we taking term X and term
>Y and term Z and simply mixing them on paper?
>	If yes, then please call it a theory.

No John, that part's rampant speculation, and if you read THE NEXT LINE
IN MY PARAGRAPH (which you of course dutifully quote) I more or less say
this.

>	It is OK to guess.... but many people reading such texts begin to
>thing...oh..this must be true and has been demonstrated because the
>words came from so and so.

My good God, John! Imagine if people started taking my ideas seriously.
Why, they might even ACT on them or some such crazy thing. (grin)

K.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  5 03:57:45 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA32618;
	Sat, 5 Oct 2002 03:55:24 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 03:55:24 -0700
Message-ID: <001101c26c55$3e2aaf80$9b10b83f computer>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Fw: Hypocharge and Gravity
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 04:54:45 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"-wZvq.0.Vz7.RKidz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48094
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

> To All,
>
> It seems that c^2 crops up as an acceleration factor when the fundamental particles
> are treated as an "LC Tank-Circuit" with the displacement current (Id) = C * dV/dt
> shuttling back and forth between the permittivity (eo) (capacitance C) and the
> permeablility (uo)  (Inductance L) of space.
>
> .The square root of the ratio of the electrostatic force (Fes)  = kq^2/R^2 to the
> gravitational force (Fg)= Gm^2/R^2 comes out to be an acceleration (a)
Time -Dilation
> "Gamma factor":
>
> (Fes/Fg)^1/2 = 4(pi)c^2  (for the proton)
>
> and (Fes/Fg)^1/2 = ~1830 * 4(pi)c^2  (for the electron)
>
> Since acceleration (a) = c^2/r  according to GR there should be a time-dilation
> factor.
>
> IOW, Hypocharge (q') = q/4(pi)c^2 = 1.602e-19/4(pi)c^2 = 1.42e-37 coulombs, giving
the
> gravitation force (Fg) as an electrostatic Hypocharge (displacement current) force :
>
> Fg = G*m1*m2/R^2 = k*q1' * q2'/R^2
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Fred
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  5 06:52:15 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA11463;
	Sat, 5 Oct 2002 06:51:29 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 06:51:29 -0700
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 06:48:58 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Hypocharge and Gravity
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <002001c26c75$f45ffce0$0a016ea8 cpq>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <001101c26c55$3e2aaf80$9b10b83f computer>
Resent-Message-ID: <"dpO_k.0._o2.Wvkdz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48095
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Fred,

Could this Time -Dilation "Gamma factor" be related to the Zaev effect: which
appears if a capacitance is charged and discharged with different velocities?

http://www.hostultra.com/~overunity/zaev/



> > It seems that c^2 crops up as an acceleration factor when the fundamental
particles
> > are treated as an "LC Tank-Circuit" with the displacement current (Id) = C *
dV/dt
> > shuttling back and forth between the permittivity (eo) (capacitance C) and
the
> > permeablility (uo)  (Inductance L) of space.

> > The square root of the ratio of the electrostatic force (Fes)  = kq^2/R^2 to
the
> > gravitational force (Fg)= Gm^2/R^2 comes out to be an acceleration (a)
> > Time -Dilation "Gamma factor":

> > Thoughts?

> > Fred


Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  5 07:48:39 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA29920;
	Sat, 5 Oct 2002 07:47:32 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 07:47:32 -0700
Message-ID: <006501c26c75$aa8f80e0$9b10b83f computer>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger suite224.net>
References: <001101c26c55$3e2aaf80$9b10b83f computer> <002001c26c75$f45ffce0$0a016ea8@cpq>
Subject: Re: Hypocharge and Gravity
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 08:46:45 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"xoxmX1.0.QJ7.3kldz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48096
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: Hypocharge and Gravity

Jones Beene wrote:


> Fred,
>
> Could this Time -Dilation "Gamma factor" be related to the Zaev effect: which
> appears if a capacitance is charged and discharged with different velocities?
>
> http://www.hostultra.com/~overunity/zaev/

It's possible, Jones. Interesting Stuff.

Since c^2 = eo*uo, then  4(pi)eo*uo = 4(pi)c^2 is the charging acceleration  (dV/dt )
responsible for the "Gamma factor" in the proton or electron.

>From this, it seems possible that the charging rate (velocity) of a capacitor has a
gamma factor associated with it.

Is Antigravity  force determined by the charging rate of a capacitor? The dilated
period for the proton is ~ 3.3e-8 sec or a frequency of 27.7 MHz, which is just above
the 27.405  channel 40 Citizens Band and just below the 10 meter Amateur Band. It is
very close to the Industrial Dielectric or Capacitive Heating machine frequency. :-)

Fred

>
>
>
> > > It seems that c^2 crops up as an acceleration factor when the fundamental
> particles
> > > are treated as an "LC Tank-Circuit" with the displacement current (Id) = C *
> dV/dt
> > > shuttling back and forth between the permittivity (eo) (capacitance C) and
> the
> > > permeablility (uo)  (Inductance L) of space.
>
> > > The square root of the ratio of the electrostatic force (Fes)  = kq^2/R^2 to
> the
> > > gravitational force (Fg)= Gm^2/R^2 comes out to be an acceleration (a)
> > > Time -Dilation "Gamma factor":
>
> > > Thoughts?
>
> > > Fred
>
>
> Jones
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  5 07:58:26 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA00651;
	Sat, 5 Oct 2002 07:57:22 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 07:57:22 -0700
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 07:54:53 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Hypocharge and Gravity
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <004201c26c7f$2a034920$0a016ea8 cpq>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <001101c26c55$3e2aaf80$9b10b83f computer>
 <002001c26c75$f45ffce0$0a016ea8 cpq> <006501c26c75$aa8f80e0$9b10b83f@computer>
Resent-Message-ID: <"qFLI73.0.5A.Itldz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48097
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>

> Is Antigravity  force determined by the charging rate of a capacitor? The
dilated
> period for the proton is ~ 3.3e-8 sec or a frequency of 27.7 MHz, which is
just above
> the 27.405  channel 40 Citizens Band ...   :-)

> Fred



Adds a whole new meaning to "Got your ears up?..."

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct  5 08:40:29 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA16330;
	Sat, 5 Oct 2002 08:39:32 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 08:39:32 -0700
Message-ID: <009701c26c7c$eeb6d820$9b10b83f computer>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <001101c26c55$3e2aaf80$9b10b83f computer> <002001c26c75$f45ffce0$0a016ea8@cpq> <006501c26c75$aa8f80e0$9b10b83f@computer> <004201c26c7f$2a034920$0a016ea8@cpq>
Subject: Re: Hypocharge and Gravity
Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 09:38:50 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"4xr6Y.0.y-3.qUmdz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48098
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: Hypocharge and Gravity

Sure does.  :-)

Fred


> From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
> 
> > Is Antigravity  force determined by the charging rate of a capacitor? The
> dilated
> > period for the proton is ~ 3.3e-8 sec or a frequency of 27.7 MHz, which is
> just above
> > the 27.405  channel 40 Citizens Band ...   :-)
> 
> > Fred
> 
> 
> 
> Adds a whole new meaning to "Got your ears up?..."
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  6 03:21:23 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA31591;
	Sun, 6 Oct 2002 03:20:21 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 03:20:21 -0700
Message-Id: <4.3.1.20021006111537.00be0a90 pop3.newnet.co.uk>
X-Sender: lawrence pop3.newnet.co.uk
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 11:18:59 +0100
To: "vortex-l eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Stephen Lawrence <stephen lawrence.newnet.co.uk>
Subject: Gribbin vs Park
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"bA2I61.0.Wj7.av0ez" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48099
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

John Gribbin: "If it disagrees with experiment, it's wrong"

Robert Park: "If it disagrees with theory, the experimenters are not 
scientists"

The "What's New" column provided my weekly fix of convulsive laughter.

Thanks!

Stephen
From: Stephen Lawrence, 8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, 
CB4 3LB.  Tel/Fax +44 1223 564373

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  6 15:38:35 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA29100;
	Sun, 6 Oct 2002 15:36:53 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 15:36:53 -0700
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 15:34:18 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Did Robert Forward have it right?
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: Frederick Sparber <fjsparber earthlink.net>
Message-id: <00bf01c26d88$82648200$0a016ea8 cpq>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C26D4D.D5A0F4C0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"9y1Du.0.c67.5iBez" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48100
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C26D4D.D5A0F4C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A couple of weeks ago, noted physicist and "hard Sci-Fi" author Robert =
Forward, PhD passed away in Seattle. He was 70 years old. It's too bad =
his life and work did not get more attention in the national media.

Like a number of speculators of future science possibilities, he was =
convinced that a nearly unlimited free energy source was available, =
waiting to be tapped - an energy source which exists on Earth for some =
unknown reason as a broken EM symmetry at a narrow spatial dimension of =
about 20 nm. - a thickness of a few dozen atoms.

Is it merely coincidental that this dimension corresponds closely to the =
54.4 eV second ionization energy (22.8 nm wavelength) of helium - and =
which also relates to R. Mills' "magic" hydrino multiple, i.e 13.6 eV x =
4 ?=20

This potential energy source is not Sci-Fi - it is real, proven but =
elusive and is most often noticed as an "attractive" pressure like the =
van der Waals force between molecules. The Casimir effect is another =
*version* of this ZPE force, which heretofore has been reputedly =
attributed to some kind of photon, but thus far it has been impossible =
to capture it as an EM pulse, perhaps because of either an extreme "skin =
effect" in normal conductors but most likely perhaps because the =
"photon" is instead another un-named boson, lepton, transverse wave or =
exotic exchange particle.

Given the Casimir attractive force relationship=3D pi^2 h_bar area / =
(240 a^4)
where h_bar =3D 1.05457E-27 erg sec, at 20 nm, the resulting calculated =
pressures are on the order of Young's modulus for materials such as iron =
or steel. (2.9E7 psi).
The Casimir force therefore not only correlates well to the forces =
holding strong materials together (although the dimensions or iron atoms =
are much closer), it correlates well with a fundamental ionization =
energy and spectral emission wavelength of all stars in the universe.=20

Maybe coincidental...

If I were adept at "channeling" I would try to contact Bob and see if =
from his new outpost, Ad Astra, he could provide to us struggling =
mortals with a Forward look....

Regards,

Jones Beene

BTW  Re: more on the significance of ~20 nm (54.4 eV).=20

On the following Cal Tech website there is some evidence from =
Cosmologist Dennis Sciama about the tau neutrino "weighing in" at near =
27.2 eV based on  "free electron scale height". The argument is =
convincing.
http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/Bothun2/Bothun6_1_6.html

If the tau neutrino and its anti-neutrino have this exact energy - then =
either their "pair production" or individual capture in pairs could =
suffice to explain ZPE. Since neutrinos are not charged and many of them =
come from the sun, then "all" one needs to do harness them in theory =
might be to provide the proper sized "antenna" to capture them and/or to =
make them "flip" over from their seemingly massless "hidden" form to =
their bare form ( the antenna being an intense crossed EM field at or =
near films of ~20 nm  or perhaps a ~27.2 eV "hole" provided by certain =
ions).



------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C26D4D.D5A0F4C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; =
MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: no-repeat; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial
}
</STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4916.2300" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>A couple of weeks ago, noted physicist and "hard Sci-Fi" author =
Robert=20
Forward, PhD passed away in Seattle. He was 70 years old. It's too bad =
his life=20
and work did not get more attention in the national media.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Like a number of speculators of future science possibilities, he =
was=20
convinced that a nearly unlimited free energy source was available, =
waiting to=20
be tapped - an energy source which exists on Earth for some unknown =
reason as a=20
broken EM symmetry at a narrow spatial dimension of about 20 nm. - a =
thickness=20
of a few dozen atoms.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Is it merely coincidental that this dimension corresponds closely =
to the=20
54.4 eV second ionization energy (22.8 nm wavelength) of helium - and =
which also=20
relates to R. Mills' "magic" hydrino multiple, i.e 13.6 eV&nbsp;x 4 ? =
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This potential energy source is not Sci-Fi - it is real, =
proven&nbsp;but=20
elusive and is most often noticed as an "attractive" pressure like the =
van der=20
Waals force between molecules.&nbsp;The Casimir effect is another =
*version* of=20
this ZPE force, which&nbsp;heretofore has been&nbsp;reputedly attributed =
to some=20
kind of photon, but thus far it has been impossible to capture it as an =
EM=20
pulse, perhaps because of either an extreme "skin effect" in normal=20
conductors&nbsp;but most likely&nbsp;perhaps because the "photon" is =
instead=20
another un-named boson, lepton, transverse wave&nbsp;or exotic exchange=20
particle.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Given the Casimir attractive force relationship=3D pi^2 h_bar area =
/ (240=20
a^4)</DIV>
<DIV>where h_bar =3D 1.05457E-27 erg sec, at 20 nm, the resulting =
calculated=20
pressures are on the order of Young's modulus for materials such as iron =
or=20
steel. (2.9E7 psi).</DIV>
<DIV>The Casimir force therefore not only correlates well to the forces =
holding=20
strong materials together (although the dimensions or iron atoms are =
much=20
closer), it correlates well with a fundamental ionization energy and =
spectral=20
emission wavelength of all stars in the universe. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Maybe coincidental...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If I were adept at "channeling" I would try to contact Bob and see =
if from=20
his new outpost, Ad Astra, he could provide to us struggling mortals =
with a=20
Forward look....</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jones Beene</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>BTW&nbsp; Re: more on the significance of ~20 nm (54.4 eV). </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>On the following Cal Tech website there is some evidence from =
Cosmologist=20
Dennis Sciama about the tau neutrino "weighing in" at near 27.2 eV based =

on&nbsp; "free electron scale height". The argument is convincing.<BR><A =

href=3D"http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/Bothun2/Bothun6_1_6.html">h=
ttp://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/Bothun2/Bothun6_1_6.html</A><BR><BR>=
If=20
the tau neutrino and its anti-neutrino have this exact energy - then =
either=20
their "pair production" or individual capture in pairs could suffice to =
explain=20
ZPE. Since neutrinos are not charged and many of them come from the sun, =
then=20
"all" one needs to do harness them in theory might be to provide the =
proper=20
sized "antenna" to capture them and/or to make them "flip" over from =
their=20
seemingly massless&nbsp;"hidden" form to their bare form ( the antenna =
being an=20
intense crossed EM field at or near films of ~20 nm&nbsp; or perhaps a =
~27.2 eV=20
"hole" provided by certain ions).<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C26D4D.D5A0F4C0--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  6 16:51:03 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA28171;
	Sun, 6 Oct 2002 16:49:55 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 16:49:55 -0700
X-Sender: rmuha mail
Message-Id: <v03110701b9c67be6b45c [206.243.174.21]>
In-Reply-To: <002001c26c75$f45ffce0$0a016ea8 cpq>
References: <001101c26c55$3e2aaf80$9b10b83f computer>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 19:49:40 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: ralph muha <rmuha minimal.com>
Subject: Re: Hypocharge and Gravity
Cc: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Resent-Message-ID: <"yjCXV.0.3u6.ZmCez" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48101
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 9:48 AM -0400 10/5/02, Jones Beene wrote:

>http://www.hostultra.com/~overunity/zaev/

don't visit this link.  all I got was a "404 not found" page,
followed by a million popup ads, the kind where you close one
and another one pops up...


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct  6 20:31:32 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA13465;
	Sun, 6 Oct 2002 20:30:19 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 20:30:19 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Did Robert Forward have it right?
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 13:29:36 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <1mv1qu02aaefivi83ot1jg3uq6o0lrercm 4ax.com>
References: <00bf01c26d88$82648200$0a016ea8 cpq>
In-Reply-To: <00bf01c26d88$82648200$0a016ea8 cpq>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id UAA13383
Resent-Message-ID: <"QIGpb3.0.CI3.B_Fez" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48102
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

In reply to  Jones Beene's message of Sun, 06 Oct 2002 15:34:18 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>Like a number of speculators of future science possibilities, he was convinced that a nearly unlimited free energy source was available, waiting to be tapped - an energy source which exists on Earth for some unknown reason as a broken EM symmetry at a narrow spatial dimension of about 20 nm. - a thickness of a few dozen atoms.

Would you have a URL for this?

>
>Is it merely coincidental that this dimension corresponds closely to the 54.4 eV second ionization energy (22.8 nm wavelength) of helium - and which also relates to R. Mills' "magic" hydrino multiple, i.e 13.6 eV x 4 ? 
[snip]
>On the following Cal Tech website there is some evidence from Cosmologist Dennis Sciama about the tau neutrino "weighing in" at near 27.2 eV based on  "free electron scale height". The argument is convincing.
>http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/Bothun2/Bothun6_1_6.html

The "evidence" might be better explained by assuming Mills is correct about hydrinos, which would nicely explain the additional ionisation.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  7 08:15:30 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA10718;
	Mon, 7 Oct 2002 08:14:11 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 08:14:11 -0700
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 08:11:38 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Did Robert Forward have it right?
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <000701c26e13$d5f2fa60$0a016ea8 cpq>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <00bf01c26d88$82648200$0a016ea8 cpq>
 <1mv1qu02aaefivi83ot1jg3uq6o0lrercm 4ax.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"-uJu2.0.Ld2.3JQez" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48103
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>

> >Like a number of speculators of future science possibilities, he was
convinced that a nearly unlimited free energy source was available, waiting to
be tapped - an energy source which exists on Earth for some unknown reason as a
broken EM symmetry at a narrow spatial dimension of about 20 nm. - a thickness
of a few dozen atoms.

> Would you have a URL for this?

Several of his science articles mention it but Dr Forward didn't publish much of
his work on the internet. Maybe your library has  "Indistinguishable From Magic"
which might be a source, or check his website for publication sources for his
articles. He also has a patent on a Casimir-type capacitor that might mention
it.

 > >On the following Cal Tech website there is some evidence from Cosmologist
Dennis Sciama about the tau neutrino "weighing in" at near 27.2 eV based on
"free electron scale height". The argument is convincing.

http://nedwww.ipac.caltech.edu/level5/Bothun2/Bothun6_1_6.html

> The "evidence" might be better explained by assuming Mills is correct about
hydrinos, which would nicely explain the additional ionisation.

I doubt if anyone at Cal Tech gives Mills the least tiny bit of credibility.

That is their problem, but in the mean time, it might be wise to consider the
possibility that it is the tau neutrino that could explain Mills excess energy
better than his own theory.

J.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct  7 09:33:41 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA16500;
	Mon, 7 Oct 2002 09:29:59 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 09:29:59 -0700
X-Sent: 7 Oct 2002 16:29:50 GMT
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021007122934.032bfeb8 mail.DIRECTVInternet.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell mail.DIRECTVInternet.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 12:29:50 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: New features on LENR-CANR.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"dXG6U.0.f14.7QRez" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48104
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I added three papers, and an index that allows readers to search for 
keywords and co-authors. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/LibraryGuide.html#SIMPLE,%20SEARCHABLE%20INDEX

It is kind of primitive, but it works. Good for co-authors, but it only 
allows one keyword search at a time. I have a better scheme coming.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  8 01:06:41 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id BAA17862;
	Tue, 8 Oct 2002 01:05:41 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 01:05:41 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Lifters and ion wind - Lifter.gif
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 18:05:07 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <8p25qugsu46h49ai5ojg0vscu4ufeme1p7 4ax.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--=_jd45qu0e5qu83ekbtn9o647219sp1ckahv.MFSBCHJLHS"
Resent-Message-ID: <"osMJ81.0.0N4.L7fez" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48105
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


----=_jd45qu0e5qu83ekbtn9o647219sp1ckahv.MFSBCHJLHS
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

Unsatisfied with the testing done on lifters (that I was aware of, and I =
haven't been following all that closely), I decided to do a simple =
calculation of the maximum lifting force that might be expected from ion =
wind, under the best of circumstances. In order to determine the net =
effect,=20
I calculated an expected resultant acceleration, and divided that into =
"g" to get a factor by which it would fall too short.
The formula I came up with is in the attached gif.

MsubL is the mass of the lifter. VsubS is the supply voltage, MsubN is =
the mass of a nitrogen molecule. "I" is the current. "g" is normal =
gravitational acceleration at the surface of the Earth. "ce" is the =
charge on an electron (also assumed to be the charge on a charged =
molecule acting as transfer particle).

As you can see for real values taken from JLN's web site for mass, =
voltage, and current for an actual flying lifter (see =
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lftcraft1.htm ), the maximum expected lift =
from
ion wind would fall short by a *factor* of about 600, yet this critter=20
actually flies. I am forced to concede that either I have made a =
fundamental
error in my calculation, or there really is an anomalous effect that =
exceeds
what might be expected from ion wind by a huge margin!

In this case, since most of the power is consumed by the ion wind (and =
it's effect is negligible), the whole could be made vastly more =
efficient, by completely preventing the ion wind with it's attendant =
power loss .


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

----=_jd45qu0e5qu83ekbtn9o647219sp1ckahv.MFSBCHJLHS
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name=Lifter.gif
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=Lifter.gif
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----=_jd45qu0e5qu83ekbtn9o647219sp1ckahv.MFSBCHJLHS--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct  8 04:51:11 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id EAA16469;
	Tue, 8 Oct 2002 04:50:22 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 04:50:22 -0700
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com
Message-Id: <v04210101b9c875434138 [192.168.123.4]>
In-Reply-To: <8p25qugsu46h49ai5ojg0vscu4ufeme1p7 4ax.com>
References: <8p25qugsu46h49ai5ojg0vscu4ufeme1p7 4ax.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 01:50:13 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Lifters and ion wind - Lifter.gif
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id EAA16422
Resent-Message-ID: <"WcRPz2.0.E14.zPiez" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48106
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Robin -

It seems the lifters may be coupling to a large mass of surrounding air, not just the small hissy jet of ion wind. But yes, eliminating the jets would seem to save power and leave more to couple with the much larger and slower moving slug of air around the device that would provide lift at less power. Then there's work benches, walls, and ceilings to interact with too...

Anomalous?

- Rick

<snip>

>I am forced to concede that either I have made a fundamental
>error in my calculation, or there really is an anomalous effect that exceeds
>what might be expected from ion wind by a huge margin!
>
>In this case, since most of the power is consumed by the ion wind (and it's effect is negligible), the whole could be made vastly more efficient, by completely preventing the ion wind with it's attendant power loss .

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 10 16:03:00 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA13095;
	Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:00:17 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:00:17 -0700
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:00:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
cc: Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Exact Method for using and Calibrating Prony Brake
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021010185716.2162A-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"yvd2B3.0.WC3.0QWfz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48107
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Vo.,

	PLEASE:

	Can anyone point to a good reference and-or personal experiences
which can reveal the Exact Method for using and Calibrating Prony Brake?

						Thank you,

								JH

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 10 16:09:01 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA16329;
	Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:07:21 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:07:21 -0700
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:08:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Prony Brake Method
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021010190137.2162B-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"4rCxn3.0._-3.eWWfz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48108
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


	Dear Vo.,

	Following is a Prony Brake test and method used to calculate the
measures acquired with same.   

	PLEASE:  Can anyone point to references and better yet real world
experiences and the references with calibration methodology that will
permit accurate assessment of the method described below and-or correct
method if there is n extant error?

	Thank you so much,

					JH

	______________	Duplication of communication  ______________

Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 09:02:37 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: k......
http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/mtrgeese.JPG
<http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/mtrgeese.JPG>  
10/9/2002   24.3V tests Muller-style 4 magnet motor  TEST #3

Summary:
ELECTRICAL INPUT:    1.458 W
MECHANICAL OUTPUT:   2.8027W
24.3Vdc X 120ma X 50%duty cycle = input
1.5oz   263RPM on prony brake = output


Notes:
---adjusted timing beforehand to best torque and waveform in these 
tests---
---two 4AH/12Vbatteries connected in series for 24.3V input---
Motor has all "8 filar" coil wires (22ga 46ft length) connected in 
series for lowest
possible draw - both motor coils in series.

Formula for mechanical watts being used:
LB/ft X RPM / 5250 = HP
HP X 746 (or 736) = WATTS

LOAD TESTS with 1 ft PRONY BRAKE:

Basic readings:
24.3V on battery during load test
50% duty cycle shown on scope

RPM calculations:
4 pulse per rotation millisecond time CYCLE shown on scope:

    14ms attractive pulse (on time)
     4ms gap  (off time)
    14ms repulsive pulse (on time)
  + 25ms gap (off time)
    57ms X 4 pulses = 228ms rotation cycle total = 60 /.228 = 263 RPM

CURRENT during load shown on scope: (measuring voltage across .01 
shunt for curent readings)

Note: 120ma peaks to pulse forms...

Simple diagram of scope pulseform:

          ^-    ^-               ^-
       _/   __/   ___25msgap___/  next pulse of cycle... 4 pulses
        14ms  14ms
           4msgap

WATTS input = .120amps X 24.3Vdc X .5 duty cycle =
1.458 WATTS input during load test

LOAD on scale with 1 foot length prony brake during these load tests:
1.5 ounce

Weight of prony brake only on scale:
.3 ounce

1.2 ounce actual torque from prony brake on scale

1.2oz / 16 = .075 lbs torque from 1ft prony brake

WATTS OUTPUT CALCULATED ON SHAFT:

.075lbs X 263RPM / 5250 = .0037571HP X 746 =
2.8027 watts mechanical output

another picture:
http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/pgtsndclose.JPG
<http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/pgtsndclose.JPG> 

ciao
K

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 10 16:58:01 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA07468;
	Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:56:04 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:56:04 -0700
Message-ID: <000c01c270b8$94cf4460$5e201f41 woh.rr.com>
From: "Nicholas Reiter" <nreiter woh.rr.com>
To: "vortex-L" <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Subject: Magnetic susceptibility of optically active crystals...
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:55:58 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"3Y6aU3.0.bq1.JEXfz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48109
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Gentlemen,

This is a quick one, as I am trying to get a feel for an effect I observed
yesterday and today, and that is just curious as hell.  If anyone in the
group knows of this, or has any details on it, please either share here or
e-mail me personally.  This is something I have now run across in my
examination of those pesky little Kozyrev- type transient weight changes in
shaken materials and crystals.

In basic terms, is there any known phenomenon where an optically active
crystal takes on the property of a magnetic dipole when an external magnetic
field is applied parallel to the optical or c- axis?

Case in point.  I have a 40mm x 40mm x 20mm right handed quartz crystal tile
with the major faces polished and perpendicular to the optical axis.  We
know that SiO2 has a magnetic susceptibility of -29 x 10-6 cgs...in other
words it is weakly diamagnetic.  Thus if the crystal is suspended or placed
on a non-magnetic balance pan, and the end of a powerful bar magnet is
brought toward the crystal, then a slight force should be observed of a
repelling sort.  And additionally, provided the bar magnet is homogeneous
and symmetrical, the repelling force should be the same independent of
whether the N or S pole is pointing at the crystal.

However, if one observes said crystal on a balance pan, and a bar magnet is
brought down vertically toward the upper face (the bar magnet thus being
parallel to the optical axis), by the time you get to within about 3 mm, you
indeed see a strong pushing force (weight increase of 4 to 5 mg as read by
the balance).  However, if the magnet poles are held away at a slightly
greater distance from the crystal, there is another force I believe I am
seeing...and this one is pole dependent!  With one end of the bar magnet
over the crystal at maybe 1 cm, I see a weight increase of about 1 to 2
mg... however when the end is flipped over, now there is a weight loss, as
though the crystal is being weakly attracted to the magnet!  A polarity
dependent moment?!?  Now interestingly, flipping the crystal over does not
change the effect.  However putting the crystal on its side, and aiming the
magnet at say the y- axis, the differential or dipole effect disappears, and
we are just left with a repulsion that is about the same regardless of which
end of the magnet is doing the pointing.  Substituting a hunk of glass and a
piece of nylon block show a repelling as well, as might be expected.
However, no differential or dipole effect.

So it SEEMS like it is a quartz crystal related effect, but only when the
impinging field lines are parallel to the optical axis.

So OK....input please.

NR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 10 17:44:43 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA27661;
	Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:43:05 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:43:05 -0700
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:43:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Reply-To: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Nicholas Reiter <nreiter woh.rr.com>, Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>,
        Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: Magnetic susceptibility of optically active crystals...
In-Reply-To: <000c01c270b8$94cf4460$5e201f41 woh.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021010203636.6125A-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"sSCOU.0.6m6.PwXfz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48110
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Nick,


	Until you put the crystal on the end of a LONG wood beam and work
with the SCALE or BALANCE ISOLATED FROM THE MAGNET.......
The you do not know WHAT you have........


	Put a pan on the end of a 5 foot wood beam on a pivot....
	the other end of the beam has a weight on a line or chain and the
weight rests on the SCALE or BALANCE.... when you alter weight on the pan
at the end of the wood beam you see the effect 5 feet away.

	I use hard, dry oak or similar cut-off 1 cm by 2 cm from millwork
shop.  Drill a hole slightly larger that a good smooth steel pin and
polish the hole by putting the pin in an electric drill and in the pivot
hole with some tap water.... run it around unti the water dries... maybe
two or three times.  You can lubricate if you want with a SMALL amount of
good Teflon [tm] bearing oil, or gun or sewing machine or watch oil.

	Make sure the pin is well supported.   A long pin on bricks is
fine.

					JH

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 10 20:08:19 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA20837;
	Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:06:39 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 20:06:39 -0700
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>,
        "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>,
        "Nicholas Reiter" <nreiter woh.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Magnetic susceptibility of optically active crystals...
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 21:21:17 -0400
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMOEKIDFAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021010203636.6125A-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Importance: Normal
Resent-Message-ID: <"a8l5n1.0.P55.-0afz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48111
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi All.

I thought about this too, John, but Nick claims
to have substituted glass and nylon and not
seen the effect. Plus aligning of the active
element ( the crystal ) alters the effect.

What Nick is describing sounds a bit like the Faraday
effect, where optical activity is seen when a magnetic
field is applied. Perhaps this is why a tensor
is needed to properly define the susceptibility? 

K.



-----Original Message-----
From: John Schnurer [mailto:herman antioch-college.edu]
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:44 PM
To: Nicholas Reiter; Vortex; Schnurer
Subject: Re: Magnetic susceptibility of optically active crystals...




	Dear Nick,


	Until you put the crystal on the end of a LONG wood beam and work
with the SCALE or BALANCE ISOLATED FROM THE MAGNET.......
The you do not know WHAT you have........


	Put a pan on the end of a 5 foot wood beam on a pivot....
	the other end of the beam has a weight on a line or chain and the
weight rests on the SCALE or BALANCE.... when you alter weight on the pan
at the end of the wood beam you see the effect 5 feet away.

	I use hard, dry oak or similar cut-off 1 cm by 2 cm from millwork
shop.  Drill a hole slightly larger that a good smooth steel pin and
polish the hole by putting the pin in an electric drill and in the pivot
hole with some tap water.... run it around unti the water dries... maybe
two or three times.  You can lubricate if you want with a SMALL amount of
good Teflon [tm] bearing oil, or gun or sewing machine or watch oil.

	Make sure the pin is well supported.   A long pin on bricks is
fine.

					JH


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 10 22:08:51 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA31423;
	Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:07:37 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:07:37 -0700
Message-ID: <000801c270e4$060f0fe0$2b2c1c43 metrogr.org>
From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com>
To: <knagel gis.net>, "Vortex" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>,
        "John Schnurer" <herman antioch-college.edu>,
        "Nicholas Reiter" <nreiter woh.rr.com>
References: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMOEKIDFAA.knagel gis.net>
Subject: Re: Magnetic susceptibility of optically active crystals...
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 01:06:43 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
Resent-Message-ID: <"MzWw42.0.og7.Oobfz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48112
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Sounds to me like he's just messing around with a variety of
magneto-electric media.  (See THE ELECTRODYNAMICS OF MAGNETO-ELECTRIC MEDIA
by T. H. O'Dell).

Kooistra

>Subject: RE: Magnetic susceptibility of optically active crystals...


> Hi All.
>
> I thought about this too, John, but Nick claims
> to have substituted glass and nylon and not
> seen the effect. Plus aligning of the active
> element ( the crystal ) alters the effect.
>
> What Nick is describing sounds a bit like the Faraday
> effect, where optical activity is seen when a magnetic
> field is applied. Perhaps this is why a tensor
> is needed to properly define the susceptibility?

& etc.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 10 23:22:02 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA24240;
	Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:20:54 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:20:54 -0700
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05111b0ab9c9461bdc3f [209.23.136.20]>
In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.20021006111537.00be0a90 pop3.newnet.co.uk>
References: <4.3.1.20021006111537.00be0a90 pop3.newnet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 01:21:27 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Gribbin vs Park
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"0-Or_1.0.gw5.6tcfz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48113
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>John Gribbin: "If it disagrees with experiment, it's wrong"
>
>Robert Park: "If it disagrees with theory, the experimenters are not 
>scientists"
>
>The "What's New" column provided my weekly fix of convulsive laughter.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Stephen
>From: Stephen Lawrence, 8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, 
>England, CB4 3LB.  Tel/Fax +44 1223 564373

Well I glad you find Parksie amusing. He raised my blood pressure.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 10 23:22:17 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA24283;
	Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:20:58 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:20:58 -0700
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05111b14b9cbecdc69e0 [209.23.136.20]>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 01:21:27 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Response to Hal Fox
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Resent-Message-ID: <"JFNis3.0.Gx5.Atcfz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48114
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Response to Hal Fox</title></head><body>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">Subj:
Funding Tilley's invention</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">Dear Thomas
Malloy,</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">You asked
about interest in funding Tilley's invention.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">Some
questions:<br>
1.&nbsp; What is the status of patents issued or
pending?</font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>Tilley is protecting his invention by secrecy. I don't know about
patents</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">2.&nbsp;
What amount of money are you seeking for a
license?</font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>As I understand it, they want to sell the entire package for
$100,000,000.</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">3.&nbsp;
When will a successful demonstration be available?</font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>They are working on an electrified SUV, it and the DeLorean will
be demonstrated at the same time.</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">We have
several inventors who have produced or believe that they<br>
are very close to producing a device suitable for use as an on-<br>
the-vehicle battery charger.&nbsp; We have a contract for such a<br>
device to be used in taxi cabs for polluted cities.&nbsp; We would
be<br>
willing to work with anyone who has such a device that we can<br>
manufacture, distribute, and pay a reasonable
royalty.</font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>Unfortunately reasonable, when it comes to money, does not seem
to be in Mr. Tilley's vocabulary.</div>
<div><br></div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">Best
personal regards,&nbsp; Hal Fox, Pres. EEMF, Inc.</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>&nbsp;</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">[[Note:&nbsp;
Scanned by Norton Anti-Virus before emailing.]]</font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>My R E Broker, Leon has a business associate, Charlie. They have
a company Technical Services for Industry, TSI. Charlie and Ed
Anderson, owner of Ltl'Orbits, mini donut machine company purchased
stock in Tilley Foundation. Leon told me to market licenses for the
technology, I assumed that he had things sorted out with Tilley, well
you know what happens when you assume. I got a nasty email from
Tilley's assistant, Doug ordering me to cease and desist my marketing
efforts.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Charles and Ed are both on the outs with Tilley for having done
the same thing.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I told Tilley, through Charlie, that I would like to do a test on
the Yellow Box, which powers his shop, with a water heater. I was
quite impressed with the reports of what the DeLorean could do in
terms of distance. However we have an electric vehicle, E V, home
brewer on Vortex-L, and he says that the demonstrations that Tilley
has done so far prove nothing. He says that with a properly adjusted
pulse discharge system, 12 automobile batteries should power a 3000
lb, streamlined car like the DeLorean 400+ miles. I find this hard to
believe, given that the world's record for an E V is something like
220 miles. I think that any red blooded E V home brewer would jump at
the chance for a world's record.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>However Doug says that the Yellow Box which is powered by 8
automobile batteries, provides all the power for Tilley's shop, which
has a welder, a lathe, a drill press, a ventilation fan, and many
fluorescent lights. Now I've wired lots of shops, that's what we were
doing today. We're putting a 200 amp service in this one, because all
that equipment would work a 100 amp service really hard, if people
were using all that equipment at once. The amount of power that a 100
amp service will deliver, translates to 10 K W. So, if the Yellow Box
really is powering that shop, and if there is no utility connection to
it, well I guess that Mr. Tilley has done it. Maybe someone will show
up and pay him $100,000,000, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for
that to happen.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Leon went to the demonstration in Nashville on September 07, and
came back talking about cold electricity, and Walter Russell. He has
Tilley on tape talking about how he replaced a large wire with a
smaller one, and how the machine worked better following that
substitution, he also mentions that smaller machines produce more
energy than large ones. Based on what I know about electrical
engineering, I think that this violates the rules, I've never replaced
a large wire with a smaller one, never had electrical machinery get
cold when it runs, and never seen a small machine out power a larger
one. Given the amount of money involved, and the track record of this
field for producing frauds, I wouldn't advise anyone to invest in this
without the water heating test.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I'll keep you posted on what happens.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Sincerely</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Thomas Malloy</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
<div><br></div>
</body>
</html>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 11 07:19:14 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA06101;
	Fri, 11 Oct 2002 07:17:38 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 07:17:38 -0700
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 07:14:48 -0700
From: Jones Beene <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Magnetic susceptibility of optically active crystals...
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <004401c27130$8fac5540$0a016ea8 cpq>
MIME-version: 1.0
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-priority: Normal
References: <000c01c270b8$94cf4460$5e201f41 woh.rr.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"LKXmJ2.0.DV1.2sjfz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48115
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Nick,

> In basic terms, is there any known phenomenon where an optically active
> crystal takes on the property of a magnetic dipole when an external magnetic
> field is applied parallel to the optical or c- axis?

Looks like this is not exactly the Kerr magneto-optical effect, but perhaps its
inverse?

To paraphrase from (Please, no Polish jokes allowed):
http://zon8.physd.amu.edu.pl/historia/nauka97/nauka97_engl.html

The phenomenon of optical reorientation of molecules can cause electric and
magnetic anisotropy in a medium....Anisotropy of this kind leads to so-called
inverse effects: inverse Kerr effect, inverse Faraday effect, inverse
Cotton-Mouton effect, in which the roles of the measuring fields and the field
polarizing the medium are inversed."

Regards,

Jones

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 11 13:53:17 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA21068;
	Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:50:34 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:50:34 -0700
Message-ID: <3DA73A6D.2D700C7C ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:54:05 -0700
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472  (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Oct 11, 2002]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"gNCE_1.0.695.Pcpfz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48116
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Oct 11, 2002
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:32:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 11 Oct 02   Washington, DC

1. LIAR, LIAR: ACADEMY PANEL DISCOVERS THE POLYGRAPH TELLS LIES. 
The polygraph looks for abrupt increases in heart rate, blood
pressure and perspiration.  The polygraph is, therefore, a highly
reliable detector of orgasms.  But does it detect lies?  Only if
you're lying about having an orgasm.  After a hundred years of
exonerating the likes of Aldrich Ames and ruining the careers of
nameless thousands, the Wen Ho Lee case led the Administration to
call for a huge expansion of polygraph testing.  To its credit,
the DOE called instead for testing the polygraph.  The National
Academy of Sciences convened a study panel, and its report was
released this week.  The report confirms, as WN has maintained,
that no spy has ever been caught using the polygraph(WN 05 Apr
02).  "Too many loyal employees may be falsely judged deceptive,
or too many major security threats could go undetected," the
report said, warning against reliance on the tests.  The next
day, New Mexico senators, Jeff Bingamen (D)and Pete Domenici (R),
called on DOE to abolish the tests.  And that's no lie.

2. THE PRIZE: OPENING NEW WINDOWS ON THE UNIVERSE.  This year's
prize went to senior physicists.  Riccardo Giaccone, a US citizen
who was born in Genoa and studied in Milan, was awarded half the
prize for founding X-ray astronomy.  He was the first to detect a
source of X rays outside the solar system and constructed the
first X-ray telescope.  He is a Fellow of the APS and President
of Associated Universities Inc.  The other half of the prize was
split between Raymond Davis Jr and Masatoshi Koshiba.  Davis was
the first to detect solar neutrinos, thus proving that solar
energy comes from fusion.  A Fellow of the APS, he is Professor
Emeritus in the Dept. of Physics and Astronomy at the Univer. of
Pennsylvania.  Masatoshi Koshiba, a citszen of Japan, confirmed
Davis's results, constructing Kamiokande, the world's largest
neutrino detector, leading to the field of neutrino astronomy.

3. HERBAL LOW: FDA STOPS SALE OF STREET DRUG SUBSTITUTES.  The
dietary supplement industry has been almost above the law since
passage of the 1994 Dietary Supplement and Health Education Act. 
The only restriction is that natural substances not be marketed
as cures for anything.  But the FDA says that herbal substances
marketed as street drug alternatives are not meant to supplement
the diet.  The FDA now says selling a combination of ephedra and
caffeine as "herbal ecstacy"(WN 16 Aug 02) is against the law.  
                    
4. ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE: IT'S NOT EASY BEING BLUE.  When anthrax
struck, we were assured AM could help.  Short on antibiotics? 
Take colloidal silver.  There are a few teensy side effects: you
can develop argyria, a permanent condition that turns your skin
blue.  The Libertarian Senate candidate in Montana was one of
those who turned blue.  Oh, and it doesn't prevent infection.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 11 15:26:46 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA27385;
	Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:25:11 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 15:25:11 -0700
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 18:25:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
cc: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, Nicholas Reiter <nreiter@woh.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Magnetic susceptibility of optically active crystals...
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMOEKIDFAA.knagel gis.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021011182109.104H-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"kOGZu2.0.oh6.7_qfz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48117
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Nicholas and Keith,

	I will always ask the method of doing experiments which involve
fields and measures:

	FIRST:

	how many times was the measure performed?
	what type of magnet was used?
	what is the model and type of measuring instrument..?
	Is it a Balance or a Scale?
	how was the measuring tool used?
	
	SECOND:

	What is the data tabulatd?
	When was this tabulated?
	What were thegeneral conditions; ie.,

		yes or no:	

		tired?
		witnesses
		more than one or none
		others perform test?


						J

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 11 16:45:16 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA24785;
	Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:44:10 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:44:10 -0700
Message-ID: <000601c27180$08b30de0$76803841 metrogr.org>
From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <3DA73A6D.2D700C7C ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Oct 11, 2002]
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 19:43:30 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
Resent-Message-ID: <"GEsIW1.0.736.A9sfz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48118
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: A

> 4. ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE: IT'S NOT EASY BEING BLUE.  When anthrax
> struck, we were assured AM could help.  Short on antibiotics?
> Take colloidal silver.  There are a few teensy side effects: you
> can develop argyria, a permanent condition that turns your skin
> blue.  The Libertarian Senate candidate in Montana was one of
> those who turned blue.  Oh, and it doesn't prevent infection.

Oh, it most certainly will prevent infection--colloidal silver is a genuine,
fairly broad-spectrum antibiotic, that used to be used extensively until
better antibiotics came along.  As the story goes, royalty began to be
called "blue-bloods" because they would grind up and snort silver during the
plague era, and they'd turn blue.  But they also lived.  I've been making
the stuff for a few years, often using it as a mouth rinse since it will
kill oral bacteria quite well.

Now that conventional antibiotics have bred tougher strains of bacteria,
colloidal silver is once again quite effective since these new strains are
not resistant to it.

Anyway, typical ignorance on the part of Park, easily dispelled if he would
have bothered to do just a tiny bit of investigation.

kooistra


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 11 17:34:38 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA13185;
	Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:32:55 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:32:55 -0700
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: [Fwd: What's New for Oct 11, 2002]
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:48:13 -0400
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMAEKPDFAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Importance: Normal
In-Reply-To: <000601c27180$08b30de0$76803841 metrogr.org>
X-Rcpt-To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"QfQPp.0.wD3.sssfz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48119
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi All.

As the "blueing" is finely divided silver particles,
I wonder if it has any effect on bacteria inside the
body? I think the deposited particles would be too large,
but I suppose we'd need a tissue sample from a sufferer,
how about it Libertarian party! A gothic pallor is
considered quite fashionable in some circles (grin).

Taking the stuff internally would do not much more
than kill the bacteria in your digestive tract, probably
not good considering you rely on that narsty
stuff to digest things. I suspect that there are people
who make colloidal silver and drink it in great quantities.
Cures whatever ails you. And then they turn blue.

It does make a good topical antiseptic, as you say.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra [mailto:dskjdk myexcel.com]
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 7:44 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Oct 11, 2002]


> 4. ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE: IT'S NOT EASY BEING BLUE.  When anthrax
> struck, we were assured AM could help.  Short on antibiotics?
> Take colloidal silver.  There are a few teensy side effects: you
> can develop argyria, a permanent condition that turns your skin
> blue.  The Libertarian Senate candidate in Montana was one of
> those who turned blue.  Oh, and it doesn't prevent infection.

Oh, it most certainly will prevent infection--colloidal silver is a genuine,
fairly broad-spectrum antibiotic, that used to be used extensively until
better antibiotics came along.  As the story goes, royalty began to be
called "blue-bloods" because they would grind up and snort silver during the
plague era, and they'd turn blue.  But they also lived.  I've been making
the stuff for a few years, often using it as a mouth rinse since it will
kill oral bacteria quite well.

Now that conventional antibiotics have bred tougher strains of bacteria,
colloidal silver is once again quite effective since these new strains are
not resistant to it.

Anyway, typical ignorance on the part of Park, easily dispelled if he would
have bothered to do just a tiny bit of investigation.

kooistra



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 11 20:44:08 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA10666;
	Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:43:12 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:43:12 -0700
Message-ID: <3DA78E9E.73864B64 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:54:07 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Oct 11, 2002]
References: <3DA73A6D.2D700C7C ix.netcom.com> <000601c27180$08b30de0$76803841@metrogr.org>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------C11006557CAA886820D12AC1"
Resent-Message-ID: <"yZJ-H2.0.ac2.Ffvfz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48120
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------C11006557CAA886820D12AC1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra wrote:

> > 4. ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE: IT'S NOT EASY BEING BLUE.  When anthrax
> > struck, we were assured AM could help.  Short on antibiotics?
> > Take colloidal silver.  There are a few teensy side effects: you
> > can develop argyria, a permanent condition that turns your skin
> > blue.  The Libertarian Senate candidate in Montana was one of
> > those who turned blue.  Oh, and it doesn't prevent infection.
>
> Oh, it most certainly will prevent infection--colloidal silver is a genuine,
> fairly broad-spectrum antibiotic, that used to be used extensively until
> better antibiotics came along.  As the story goes, royalty began to be
> called "blue-bloods" because they would grind up and snort silver during the
> plague era, and they'd turn blue.  But they also lived.  I've been making
> the stuff for a few years, often using it as a mouth rinse since it will
> kill oral bacteria quite well.
>
> Now that conventional antibiotics have bred tougher strains of bacteria,
> colloidal silver is once again quite effective since these new strains are
> not resistant to it.
>
> Anyway, typical ignorance on the part of Park, easily dispelled if he would
> have bothered to do just a tiny bit of investigation.
>
> kooistra

I might as well add a few more insights to this thread.  The silver ion is a
very good germicide that has been used for centuries.  However, it is also
deadly to the body when ingested at too high a concentration.  For many years
before antibiotics were available, people used a protein based silver compound
in order to reduce the silver ion activity to acceptable levels.  However, too
much of this compound can turn a person gray as silver is deposited in the
skin.  Colloidal silver became popular because it is a source of silver ion
that is supplied at a very low, but effective concentration.  When ingested, it
turns into AgCl, which is a very insoluble compound of silver.  As such, it
maintains a very low concentration of Ag+ while passing through the body.  It
does not turn a person blue or gray and it is completely nontoxic.  On the
other hand, it is an effective germicide, in contrast to what Park says.  But
then, Park is seldom accurate in his opinions.

Ed Storms


--------------C11006557CAA886820D12AC1
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
 name="storms2.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Edmund Storms
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="storms2.vcf"

begin:vcard 
n:; 
tel;work:505 988 3673
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html
org:Energy K. System
adr:;;2140 Paseo Ponderosa;Santa Fe;NM;87501;http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html
version:2.1
email;internet:storms2 ix.netcom.com
x-mozilla-cpt:;1
fn:Edmund Storms
end:vcard

--------------C11006557CAA886820D12AC1--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 11 22:13:02 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA10721;
	Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:12:15 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:12:15 -0700
From: Dean Miller <dtmiller midiowa.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Oct 11, 2002]
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 00:13:23 -0500
Organization: Miller and Associates
Message-ID: <cpafquklmk6kjg4pqh2s4s4qs10mll27ot 4ax.com>
References: <3DA73A6D.2D700C7C ix.netcom.com>
In-Reply-To: <3DA73A6D.2D700C7C ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA10696
Resent-Message-ID: <"hv5SY1.0.Rd2.kywfz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48121
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:54:05 -0700, Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
wrote:

>WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 11 Oct 02   Washington, DC
>4. ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE: IT'S NOT EASY BEING BLUE.  When anthrax
>struck, we were assured AM could help.  Short on antibiotics? 
>Take colloidal silver.  There are a few teensy side effects: you
>can develop argyria, a permanent condition that turns your skin
>blue.  The Libertarian Senate candidate in Montana was one of
>those who turned blue.  Oh, and it doesn't prevent infection.

Uh, right.

The "ingredients" for colloidal silver are:  1) pure (distilled)
water, 2) pure (.999 fine) silver and, using the low-voltage method, a
current density of about 1 mA/sq inch until the amount of ionic silver
in the water is about 10 ppm -- usually about 30 minutes for 10 to 16
ounces of water.  Adding anything else to the water (salt, baking
soda) or using other than distilled water is a recipe for disaster in
that you can't easily predict what compounds may be formed.

Here's what the candidate in Montana says in his FAQ) -- my comments
in brackets:

"Here's my standard response. I think it answers most of your
questions.

Don't stop what you're doing. Colloidal silver has been so completely
researched that we know it is very safe. Many people don't see any
difference in my skin. This news blast started because a reporter who
saw me in a debate in Great Falls, Montana interviewed me and
published a story with a doctored photo (made my face decidedly blue).
The associated press picked the story up and put it all on the
Internet.

To answer your questions:

1) I use a generator with three nine-volt batteries connected in
series (27 volts D.C.);

2) I started taking colloidal silver in Seattle where the tap water is
generally free from minerals. [most good tap water has 100 to 1000+
ppm of various minerals]   I added a few drops of salt water to
improve the conductivity. [produces silver chloride]   When I moved to
Montana 1998, I continued to use tap water but here it is full of
minerals. [well water can have 10,000+ ppm of minerals]   I never had
it tested.

3) I made my solution in an eight ounce paper cup, [unknown coatings
and chemicals in the paper] conducting the current for one hour.
[producing what's normally termed "sludge" in the CS community due to
a current runaway condition]   I then added one half of this solution
to two gallons of drinking water that I kept in my refrigerator. I
have no idea what the PPM of this solution was.  [nor what compounds
are present]

4) I drank my water over the entire day, [just about the only thing
he's done right :) ]   but mostly in the evening after work. I have no
idea how much I drank during any day.  [good 10 ppm colloidal/ionic
silver will possibly produce argyria if 70 gallons are drunk daily for
at least 6 months -- IOW, it's impossible]

5) I never filtered the solution.  [there's no need to filter good 10
ppm CS -- there's nothing to filter]

6) People began to tell me my complexion was getting "pale" or "green"
or "blue." I never noticed the difference in my mirror every day. I
did notice that under my finger nails was turning blue -- like a lack
of oxygen. That's probably the first sign. No other part of my body
shows any indications. "


-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 11 22:48:17 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA21806;
	Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:45:55 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:45:55 -0700
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: [Fwd: What's New for Oct 11, 2002]
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 02:01:13 -0400
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMEELADFAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Importance: Normal
In-Reply-To: <cpafquklmk6kjg4pqh2s4s4qs10mll27ot 4ax.com>
X-Rcpt-To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"NYgvW3.0.XK5.JSxfz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48122
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Ed and Dean.

Thanks for the Jones FAQ, Dean. It's clear he
was using tap water and high voltage, so it's
likely he had a saturated AgCl solution. Solubility
is about 2 mg per L, probably more so given the
variety of stuff to form silver complexes with.

It's tempting to go out and buy an albino guinea pig,
and feed it some AgCl to see how much it would
take to make a metallic colored rodent. I'm surprised
no-ones done this to establish some limits on
dosage. Would this be cruelty to animals? Heck,
I should use silver nitrate and make a new cybernetic
pet. The stainless steel rat?

K.



-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Miller [mailto:dtmiller midiowa.net]
Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 1:13 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Oct 11, 2002]


On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:54:05 -0700, Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
wrote:

>WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 11 Oct 02   Washington, DC
>4. ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE: IT'S NOT EASY BEING BLUE.  When anthrax
>struck, we were assured AM could help.  Short on antibiotics? 
>Take colloidal silver.  There are a few teensy side effects: you
>can develop argyria, a permanent condition that turns your skin
>blue.  The Libertarian Senate candidate in Montana was one of
>those who turned blue.  Oh, and it doesn't prevent infection.

Uh, right.

The "ingredients" for colloidal silver are:  1) pure (distilled)
water, 2) pure (.999 fine) silver and, using the low-voltage method, a
current density of about 1 mA/sq inch until the amount of ionic silver
in the water is about 10 ppm -- usually about 30 minutes for 10 to 16
ounces of water.  Adding anything else to the water (salt, baking
soda) or using other than distilled water is a recipe for disaster in
that you can't easily predict what compounds may be formed.

Here's what the candidate in Montana says in his FAQ) -- my comments
in brackets:

"Here's my standard response. I think it answers most of your
questions.

Don't stop what you're doing. Colloidal silver has been so completely
researched that we know it is very safe. Many people don't see any
difference in my skin. This news blast started because a reporter who
saw me in a debate in Great Falls, Montana interviewed me and
published a story with a doctored photo (made my face decidedly blue).
The associated press picked the story up and put it all on the
Internet.

To answer your questions:

1) I use a generator with three nine-volt batteries connected in
series (27 volts D.C.);

2) I started taking colloidal silver in Seattle where the tap water is
generally free from minerals. [most good tap water has 100 to 1000+
ppm of various minerals]   I added a few drops of salt water to
improve the conductivity. [produces silver chloride]   When I moved to
Montana 1998, I continued to use tap water but here it is full of
minerals. [well water can have 10,000+ ppm of minerals]   I never had
it tested.

3) I made my solution in an eight ounce paper cup, [unknown coatings
and chemicals in the paper] conducting the current for one hour.
[producing what's normally termed "sludge" in the CS community due to
a current runaway condition]   I then added one half of this solution
to two gallons of drinking water that I kept in my refrigerator. I
have no idea what the PPM of this solution was.  [nor what compounds
are present]

4) I drank my water over the entire day, [just about the only thing
he's done right :) ]   but mostly in the evening after work. I have no
idea how much I drank during any day.  [good 10 ppm colloidal/ionic
silver will possibly produce argyria if 70 gallons are drunk daily for
at least 6 months -- IOW, it's impossible]

5) I never filtered the solution.  [there's no need to filter good 10
ppm CS -- there's nothing to filter]

6) People began to tell me my complexion was getting "pale" or "green"
or "blue." I never noticed the difference in my mirror every day. I
did notice that under my finger nails was turning blue -- like a lack
of oxygen. That's probably the first sign. No other part of my body
shows any indications. "


-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 12 05:38:16 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA15653;
	Sat, 12 Oct 2002 05:37:31 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 05:37:31 -0700
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com (Unverified)
Message-Id: <v04210102b9cdc42db4fb [192.168.123.4]>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 02:36:40 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: New water vortex device. Probably not OU...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id FAA15628
Resent-Message-ID: <"-JkXD1.0.Vq3.AU1gz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48123
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

It's called an eye-spraying cleaner for close stool. (?!) 

Maybe we could all chip in a few bucks to send a unit to Parksie for testing?

http://twinwin.netfirms.com/eeyedm.htm

And here's how to use it:

http://twinwin.netfirms.com/eeyeusag.htm

If you decide to try this at home, be sure to read step one in the link above carefully. You do *not* want to get your anus hole out of adjustment, because it's almost impossible to get the damn thing properly re-aligned once that happens. Kind of like a Honda Accord when it gets rear ended. 

R. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 12 08:06:49 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA29233;
	Sat, 12 Oct 2002 08:05:57 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 08:05:57 -0700
Message-ID: <3DA82EA2.CCDEFC39 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 08:16:05 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Oct 11, 2002]
References: <3DA73A6D.2D700C7C ix.netcom.com> <cpafquklmk6kjg4pqh2s4s4qs10mll27ot@4ax.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------27E0A060436454D148C02EA9"
Resent-Message-ID: <"eGvqE1.0.c87.Lf3gz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48124
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------27E0A060436454D148C02EA9
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



Dean Miller wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:54:05 -0700, Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
> wrote:
>
> >WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 11 Oct 02   Washington, DC
> >4. ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE: IT'S NOT EASY BEING BLUE.  When anthrax
> >struck, we were assured AM could help.  Short on antibiotics?
> >Take colloidal silver.  There are a few teensy side effects: you
> >can develop argyria, a permanent condition that turns your skin
> >blue.  The Libertarian Senate candidate in Montana was one of
> >those who turned blue.  Oh, and it doesn't prevent infection.
>
> Uh, right.
>
> The "ingredients" for colloidal silver are:  1) pure (distilled)
> water, 2) pure (.999 fine) silver and, using the low-voltage method, a
> current density of about 1 mA/sq inch until the amount of ionic silver
> in the water is about 10 ppm -- usually about 30 minutes for 10 to 16
> ounces of water.  Adding anything else to the water (salt, baking
> soda) or using other than distilled water is a recipe for disaster in
> that you can't easily predict what compounds may be formed.
>
> Here's what the candidate in Montana says in his FAQ) -- my comments
> in brackets:
>
> "Here's my standard response. I think it answers most of your
> questions.
>
> Don't stop what you're doing. Colloidal silver has been so completely
> researched that we know it is very safe. Many people don't see any
> difference in my skin. This news blast started because a reporter who
> saw me in a debate in Great Falls, Montana interviewed me and
> published a story with a doctored photo (made my face decidedly blue).
> The associated press picked the story up and put it all on the
> Internet.
>
> To answer your questions:
>
> 1) I use a generator with three nine-volt batteries connected in
> series (27 volts D.C.);
>
> 2) I started taking colloidal silver in Seattle where the tap water is
> generally free from minerals. [most good tap water has 100 to 1000+
> ppm of various minerals]   I added a few drops of salt water to
> improve the conductivity. [produces silver chloride]   When I moved to
> Montana 1998, I continued to use tap water but here it is full of
> minerals. [well water can have 10,000+ ppm of minerals]   I never had
> it tested.
>
> 3) I made my solution in an eight ounce paper cup, [unknown coatings
> and chemicals in the paper] conducting the current for one hour.
> [producing what's normally termed "sludge" in the CS community due to
> a current runaway condition]   I then added one half of this solution
> to two gallons of drinking water that I kept in my refrigerator. I
> have no idea what the PPM of this solution was.  [nor what compounds
> are present]
>
> 4) I drank my water over the entire day, [just about the only thing
> he's done right :) ]   but mostly in the evening after work. I have no
> idea how much I drank during any day.  [good 10 ppm colloidal/ionic
> silver will possibly produce argyria if 70 gallons are drunk daily for
> at least 6 months -- IOW, it's impossible]
>
> 5) I never filtered the solution.  [there's no need to filter good 10
> ppm CS -- there's nothing to filter]
>
> 6) People began to tell me my complexion was getting "pale" or "green"
> or "blue." I never noticed the difference in my mirror every day. I
> did notice that under my finger nails was turning blue -- like a lack
> of oxygen. That's probably the first sign. No other part of my body
> shows any indications. "
>
> -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

Oh my, when I read about such behavior, I start to have sympathy for the
skeptics, including Park.  Here is a person, as quoted by Dean, who is
giving advice on the internet, but has absolutely no idea what he is
doing.  First of all silver is a poison that kills living cells.  That is
why it is a good germicide.  The Ag+ ion kills any cell that is in the
process of reproducing.  This includes cells in the body that are
important.  The material does not kill the body because the body can
repair the damage, while the bacteria can not.  In addition, the body
uses and needs certain bacteria, which the Ag+ will kill if it is taken
too often.  Therefore, it is dangerous to take colloidal silver on a
regular basis.  In addition, when colloidal silver is not made properly,
i.e. by using very pure water, a significant concentration of Ag+ ion is
produced in the solution.  This Ag+ ion is very poisonous and easily
absorbed into the blood while in the mouth, before it is converted to
AgCl in the stomach. It is this material that gets into the tissue and
produces graying.  Therefore, a person who makes and ingests colloidal
silver would be well advised to gain some knowledge about what they are
doing and the nature of their product.  When made and used properly the
material is safe and effective.  Otherwise, the material can be
dangerous.

Ed


--------------27E0A060436454D148C02EA9
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
 name="storms2.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Edmund Storms
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="storms2.vcf"

begin:vcard 
n:; 
tel;work:505 988 3673
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html
org:Energy K. System
adr:;;2140 Paseo Ponderosa;Santa Fe;NM;87501;http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html
version:2.1
email;internet:storms2 ix.netcom.com
x-mozilla-cpt:;1
fn:Edmund Storms
end:vcard

--------------27E0A060436454D148C02EA9--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 12 11:54:33 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA14316;
	Sat, 12 Oct 2002 11:52:35 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 11:52:35 -0700
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <118.190bb039.2ad9c941 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 14:51:45 EDT
Subject: need info on ultrasonic
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634
Resent-Message-ID: <"LWvJw2.0.bV3.oz6gz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48125
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I'm ready to try another experiment.  I need an ultrasonic transducer.  I 
would like to stimulate air or a low density plasma at 10 megahertz.  Is this 
possible?

Any Ideas?


Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 12 14:43:44 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA17175;
	Sat, 12 Oct 2002 14:42:53 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 14:42:53 -0700
From: Dean Miller <dtmiller midiowa.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Oct 11, 2002]
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 16:44:04 -0500
Organization: Miller and Associates
Message-ID: <4a3hqukbm20juj9kgjuono37rcrtm16ikp 4ax.com>
References: <3DA73A6D.2D700C7C ix.netcom.com> <cpafquklmk6kjg4pqh2s4s4qs10mll27ot@4ax.com> <3DA82EA2.CCDEFC39@ix.netcom.com>
In-Reply-To: <3DA82EA2.CCDEFC39 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id OAA17148
Resent-Message-ID: <"xZtqH.0.HC4.TT9gz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48126
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Sat, 12 Oct 2002 08:16:05 -0600, Edmund Storms
<storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>First of all silver is a poison that kills living cells.  

That's not entirely correct.  

>That is
>why it is a good germicide.  The Ag+ ion kills any cell that is in the
>process of reproducing.  

It doesn't kill "any" cell.  There are cells that use silver (silver
is a trace element needed by some cells in the body -- but is usually
unavailable in the quantities needed in the current American food
supply).

>This includes cells in the body that are
>important.  The material does not kill the body because the body can
>repair the damage, while the bacteria can not.  In addition, the body
>uses and needs certain bacteria, which the Ag+ will kill if it is taken
>too often.

That's also not correct.  The action of ionic silver in the body is
available *only* in solution.  That is, in the upper digestive tract
(but usually not the lower/large intestine which normally contains
semi-solids), the blood and other liquid parts of the body.

What this means is that ionic silver will kill single (or few) cell
pathogens in the stomach and small intestine -- both of which are
supposed to be a sterile environment -- but not the large intestine,
where the "good" bacteria resides.  The only time silver is effective
in the large intestine is when the intestine's contents is liquid,
usually produced by "bad" bacteria and results in diarrhea.  IOW,
ionic silver will kill the bacteria in the large intestine only when
the bacteria is producing unwanted effects.

>  Therefore, it is dangerous to take colloidal silver on a
>regular basis.

No.  If you look up the longest lived populations in the world
(Pyrenees, Andes, Caucuses, etc.), you'll notice several common
characteristics.  They live in mountainous areas, these areas are the
same places silver is mined (and other minerals), and they all use a
yogurt-like food.  Mountain populations in areas that don't have a
silver presence don't show the longevity characteristics.  The
long-lived (many people are active -- horseback riding, etc. -- in
their 100's) populations drink water and eat food containing
relatively large amounts of silver, and have done so their entire
lives.

Also, there are many (at least 10's of thousands) of people taking
ionic (colloidal) silver daily in the US.  Almost all of them began
using CS because they had a medical condition that was untreatable by
conventional medicine, and the CS has either cured or greatly relieved
their problem (problems such as Lyme disease).  Many of these people
have been using CS for 10 years or more, and are much healthier than
their peers.  Of course, the mindset that allowed them to use CS also
allows them to pay more attention to their diets and other
healthy-living protocols.

>  In addition, when colloidal silver is not made properly,
>i.e. by using very pure water, a significant concentration of Ag+ ion is
>produced in the solution.  

What's wanted is the Ag+ ion.  CS is most effective (for internal use)
when it's at least 90% ionic.  The body also eliminates the excess
silver from the body when it's taken as ions (instead of mild silver
protein or other silver compounds).  That is, argyria is produced most
readily from silver compounds and not low ppm ionic silver.  (Ionic
silver apparently cannot easily be made at concentrations above about
50 to 100 ppm because the silver tends to agglomerate into larger
particles.)

>This Ag+ ion is very poisonous and easily
>absorbed into the blood while in the mouth, before it is converted to
>AgCl in the stomach. 

There is some question about whether the Ag+ is combined with HCl in
the stomach to make AgCl.  The few tests that have been performed
imply AgCl isn't produced in any large percentage.  Nobody knows why
not at the moment.  (It's been assumed for a long time that AgCl is
produced in the stomach because it's "supposed to."  The silver
wouldn't show up in the blood stream if it's in the form of AgCl,
because it wouldn't pass the intestinal membranes.  But tests run on
dogs show reasonable percentages of silver in the bloodstream when CS
is introduced directly into the dogs' stomachs.)

>It is this material that gets into the tissue and
>produces graying.  

The silver that produces argyria is always combined with a protein or
introduced in such a way as to combine with a protein or through the
inhalation of high concentrations of silver dust.  Also, the silver
concentration that produces argyria is in the range of 1000 to 10,000
ppm or more as silver nitrate (1% or greater solution) or other
compound.  It's the large amount of silver that produces argyria --
and it must be taken frequently (many times daily) over a reasonable
span of time, such as 6 months or more.  All known cases of argyria
have been produced through the use of relatively large amounts of
silver.  There is no known case of argyria from using 10 ppm ionic
silver, as the sole source of water, for years (and decades).

>Therefore, a person who makes and ingests colloidal
>silver would be well advised to gain some knowledge about what they are
>doing and the nature of their product.  When made and used properly the
>material is safe and effective.  Otherwise, the material can be
>dangerous.

Colloidal (ionic) silver produced through the low-voltage DC methods
is completely safe and very effective as long as the proper (simple)
procedure is followed.  The CS produced should measure about 15 to 20
uS and have little or no Tyndall effect -- and should be completely
clear.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 12 17:13:54 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA12777;
	Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:12:25 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:12:25 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Prony Brake Method
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:11:50 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <1h9hqugcfn5bt5sj93h8a6tuh6i77jiold 4ax.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021010190137.2162B-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021010190137.2162B-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA12749
Resent-Message-ID: <"WBv0-3.0.X73.ffBgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48127
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  John Schnurer's message of Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:08:01 -0400:
Hi John,
[snip]

>	PLEASE:  Can anyone point to references and better yet real world
>experiences and the references with calibration methodology that will
>permit accurate assessment of the method described below and-or correct
>method if there is n extant error?
>
>	Thank you so much,
>
[snip]
>Formula for mechanical watts being used:
>LB/ft X RPM / 5250 = HP
>HP X 746 (or 736) = WATTS

This formula is wrong. The actual formula is :-

(LB x ft x RPM)/5250 = HP

However in *this* case (and *only* in this case) it makes no difference because *1* ft is used, which gives the same result, whether multiplied or divided.
I am more troubled by "1 foot length prony brake", which seems to imply that the length of the cord was used. The formula given assumes that the number of feet is the radius of the wheel, not the length of the cord.


The real formula is speed of wheel rim (at radius where friction occurs with cord) x friction force (in this case mass x g, assuming that the mass is neither raised nor lowered).

(BTW please correct this anyone, if I blundered ;)

>
>LOAD TESTS with 1 ft PRONY BRAKE:
>
>Basic readings:
>24.3V on battery during load test
>50% duty cycle shown on scope
>
>RPM calculations:
>4 pulse per rotation millisecond time CYCLE shown on scope:
>
>    14ms attractive pulse (on time)
>     4ms gap  (off time)
>    14ms repulsive pulse (on time)
>  + 25ms gap (off time)
>    57ms X 4 pulses = 228ms rotation cycle total = 60 /.228 = 263 RPM
>
>CURRENT during load shown on scope: (measuring voltage across .01 
>shunt for curent readings)
>
>Note: 120ma peaks to pulse forms...
>
>Simple diagram of scope pulseform:
>
>          ^-    ^-               ^-
>       _/   __/   ___25msgap___/  next pulse of cycle... 4 pulses
>        14ms  14ms
>           4msgap
>
>WATTS input = .120amps X 24.3Vdc X .5 duty cycle =
>1.458 WATTS input during load test
>
>LOAD on scale with 1 foot length prony brake during these load tests:
>1.5 ounce
>
>Weight of prony brake only on scale:
>.3 ounce
>
>1.2 ounce actual torque from prony brake on scale
>
>1.2oz / 16 = .075 lbs torque from 1ft prony brake
>
>WATTS OUTPUT CALCULATED ON SHAFT:
>
>.075lbs X 263RPM / 5250 = .0037571HP X 746 =
>2.8027 watts mechanical output
>
>another picture:
>http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/pgtsndclose.JPG
><http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/pgtsndclose.JPG> 
>
>ciao
>K

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 12 17:47:37 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA26125;
	Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:46:30 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 17:46:30 -0700
Message-ID: <000701c27251$f30e18e0$5e201f41 woh.rr.com>
From: "Nicholas Reiter" <nreiter woh.rr.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <000c01c270b8$94cf4460$5e201f41 woh.rr.com> <004401c27130$8fac5540$0a016ea8@cpq>
Subject: Re: Magnetic susceptibility of optically active crystals...
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 20:46:21 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"4NHyx2.0.1O6.c9Cgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48128
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Just a memo to Jones, and others.

Per your suggestion to see if the presence of directed light influences the
magnitude of the effect I am seeing - no it does not seem to.  I used a
fiber optic guide to direct some bright white light into the balance
enclosure, and also used a beam bounced off a mirror from a 200 watt
longwave UV lamp.  Neither really seemed to make any difference in magnitude
of the magnetic "pseudo dipole" force.

Still staring at it and trying variations.

NR

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones Beene" <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: Magnetic susceptibility of optically active crystals...


> Nick,
>
> > In basic terms, is there any known phenomenon where an optically active
> > crystal takes on the property of a magnetic dipole when an external
magnetic
> > field is applied parallel to the optical or c- axis?
>
> Looks like this is not exactly the Kerr magneto-optical effect, but
perhaps its
> inverse?
>
> To paraphrase from (Please, no Polish jokes allowed):
> http://zon8.physd.amu.edu.pl/historia/nauka97/nauka97_engl.html
>
> The phenomenon of optical reorientation of molecules can cause electric
and
> magnetic anisotropy in a medium....Anisotropy of this kind leads to
so-called
> inverse effects: inverse Kerr effect, inverse Faraday effect, inverse
> Cotton-Mouton effect, in which the roles of the measuring fields and the
field
> polarizing the medium are inversed."
>
> Regards,
>
> Jones
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 12 20:16:08 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA14707;
	Sat, 12 Oct 2002 20:15:20 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 20:15:20 -0700
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 23:15:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: need info on ultrasonic
In-Reply-To: <118.190bb039.2ad9c941 aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021012231453.9812B-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"LAkXh.0.jb3.8LEgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48129
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear FZ,

	What was the first experiment?

	At 10 meg cps quartz is often used.  Not much power is coupled to
air at these frequencies.

On Sat, 12 Oct 2002 FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:

> I'm ready to try another experiment.  I need an ultrasonic transducer.  I 
> would like to stimulate air or a low density plasma at 10 megahertz.  Is this 
> possible?
> 
> Any Ideas?
> 
> 
> Frank Znidarsic
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 12 20:41:40 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA23029;
	Sat, 12 Oct 2002 20:40:53 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 20:40:53 -0700
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 23:40:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>,
        "Douglas L. Konzen" <konehead msn.com>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: OVER UNITY Prony Brake Expert Needed TO SORT OUT CALCULATION 
In-Reply-To: <1h9hqugcfn5bt5sj93h8a6tuh6i77jiold 4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021012232809.9812G-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"wkga42.0.kd5.5jEgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48130
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 



	Dear Vo, Robin and Doug,

	I think we need a little help.  I know I sure do.

	EXACTLY how is the braking power of a Prony Brake calculated?	

	DOUG:

	Can you please tell us what "One Foot Prony Brake" is or means?

	AND:

	If you have nearly 2.75 watts MECHANICAL shaft output then you can
use a standard bycycle generator to run closed loop.   You can also use a
standard bicycle generator to measure power in and out.


	I think there is error is the computation of:

	(A)	 The Electrical Power Used 

	(B)	The Method of employing the Prony Brake
			and the Amount of Power it Represents


	Please see these comments, below:

On Sun, 13 Oct 2002, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  John Schnurer's message of Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:08:01 -0400:
> Hi John,
> [snip]
> 
> >	PLEASE:  Can anyone point to references and better yet real world
> >experiences and the references with calibration methodology that will
> >permit accurate assessment of the method described below and-or correct
> >method if there is n extant error?
> >
> >	Thank you so much,
> >
> [snip]
> >Formula for mechanical watts being used:
> >LB/ft X RPM / 5250 = HP
> >HP X 746 (or 736) = WATTS
> 
> This formula is wrong. The actual formula is :-
> 
> (LB x ft x RPM)/5250 = HP
> 

> However in *this* case (and *only* in this case) it makes no difference
> because *1* ft is used, which gives the same result, whether multiplied
> or divided.  I am more troubled by "1 foot length prony brake", which
> seems to imply that the length of the cord was used. The formula given
> assumes that the number of feet is the radius of the wheel, not the
> length of the cord. 

> 

> 
> The real formula is speed of wheel rim (at radius where friction occurs
> with cord) x friction force (in this case mass x g, assuming that the
> mass is neither raised nor lowered). 

> 
> (BTW please correct this anyone, if I blundered ;)
> 
> >
> >LOAD TESTS with 1 ft PRONY BRAKE:
> >
> >Basic readings:
> >24.3V on battery during load test
> >50% duty cycle shown on scope
> >
> >RPM calculations:
> >4 pulse per rotation millisecond time CYCLE shown on scope:
> >
> >    14ms attractive pulse (on time)
> >     4ms gap  (off time)
> >    14ms repulsive pulse (on time)
> >  + 25ms gap (off time)
> >    57ms X 4 pulses = 228ms rotation cycle total = 60 /.228 = 263 RPM
> >
> >CURRENT during load shown on scope: (measuring voltage across .01 
> >shunt for curent readings)
> >
> >Note: 120ma peaks to pulse forms...
> >
> >Simple diagram of scope pulseform:
> >
> >          ^-    ^-               ^-
> >       _/   __/   ___25msgap___/  next pulse of cycle... 4 pulses
> >        14ms  14ms
> >           4msgap
> >
> >WATTS input = .120amps X 24.3Vdc X .5 duty cycle =
> >1.458 WATTS input during load test
> >
> >LOAD on scale with 1 foot length prony brake during these load tests:
> >1.5 ounce
> >
> >Weight of prony brake only on scale:
> >.3 ounce
> >
> >1.2 ounce actual torque from prony brake on scale
> >
> >1.2oz / 16 = .075 lbs torque from 1ft prony brake
> >
> >WATTS OUTPUT CALCULATED ON SHAFT:
> >
> >.075lbs X 263RPM / 5250 = .0037571HP X 746 =
> >2.8027 watts mechanical output
> >
> >another picture:
> >http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/pgtsndclose.JPG
> ><http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/pgtsndclose.JPG> 
> >
> >ciao
> >K
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 
> Competition provides the motivation,
> Cooperation provides the means.
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 12 23:02:18 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA01580;
	Sat, 12 Oct 2002 23:00:37 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 23:00:37 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OVER UNITY Prony Brake Expert Needed TO SORT OUT CALCULATION 
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:00:01 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <j90iquct0fepi5fhb7o4rbtadqbdp3otc8 4ax.com>
References: <1h9hqugcfn5bt5sj93h8a6tuh6i77jiold 4ax.com> <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021012232809.9812G-100000@college.antioch-college.edu>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021012232809.9812G-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA01545
Resent-Message-ID: <"nLvR-1.0.ZO.4mGgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48131
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  John Schnurer's message of Sat, 12 Oct 2002 23:40:26 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]

>
>
>	Dear Vo, Robin and Doug,
>
>	I think we need a little help.  I know I sure do.
>
>	EXACTLY how is the braking power of a Prony Brake calculated?

The original version invented by De Prony used a spring scale attached to a belt wrapped around a wheel or drum. However currently there seems to be a
version in use that relies on a lever pressing a brake shoe against the wheel
or drum. The lever is forced against the drum by a mass tied to the end of
if by a cord. The notion being that the torque equals the force exerted by
gravity on the mass, multiplied by the length of the lever arm.

However I must say that I am troubled by this version, as it appears
to take no account of the fact the force thus exerted on the wheel/drum
is perpendicular to the surface, and not parallel to it as in De Prony's
original. As it is now perpendicular, it seems to me that in order to
calculate the actual parallel force, one would need to apply some unknown
coefficient of friction. Since this varies from one setup to the next,
this incarnation of the concept would appear to be useless for power measurement.
(Unless the break shoe is on the side, and is supported purely by friction
from the rotating wheel. However I suspect that this would be difficult to
get right in practice).

Upon considering all of this, I have changed my mind about the meaning of
the phrase "1 foot length prony brake". I now think it probably refers
to the length of such a lever arm.
I also find the first part of the statement troubling:-
"LOAD on scale". This appears to be saying that 1.5 oz was the reading on the scale. However, surely this is the mass still supported by the scale, 
and the mass producing the friction force would be the actual mass minus the scale reading? (Unless the setup is a true De Prony brake, with spring scale,
in which case "1 foot length prony brake" may indeed refer to the length
of the cord.

In short, I think a diagram of the setup is in order, with measurements included.
[snip]
>> >LOAD TESTS with 1 ft PRONY BRAKE:
>> >
>> >Basic readings:
>> >24.3V on battery during load test
>> >50% duty cycle shown on scope
>> >
>> >RPM calculations:
>> >4 pulse per rotation millisecond time CYCLE shown on scope:
>> >
>> >    14ms attractive pulse (on time)
>> >     4ms gap  (off time)
>> >    14ms repulsive pulse (on time)
>> >  + 25ms gap (off time)
>> >    57ms X 4 pulses = 228ms rotation cycle total = 60 /.228 = 263 RPM
>> >
>> >CURRENT during load shown on scope: (measuring voltage across .01 
>> >shunt for curent readings)
>> >
>> >Note: 120ma peaks to pulse forms...
>> >
>> >Simple diagram of scope pulseform:
>> >
>> >          ^-    ^-               ^-
>> >       _/   __/   ___25msgap___/  next pulse of cycle... 4 pulses
>> >        14ms  14ms
>> >           4msgap
>> >
>> >WATTS input = .120amps X 24.3Vdc X .5 duty cycle =
>> >1.458 WATTS input during load test
>> >
>> >LOAD on scale with 1 foot length prony brake during these load tests:
>> >1.5 ounce
>> >
>> >Weight of prony brake only on scale:
>> >.3 ounce
>> >
>> >1.2 ounce actual torque from prony brake on scale
>> >
>> >1.2oz / 16 = .075 lbs torque from 1ft prony brake
>> >
>> >WATTS OUTPUT CALCULATED ON SHAFT:
>> >
>> >.075lbs X 263RPM / 5250 = .0037571HP X 746 =
>> >2.8027 watts mechanical output
>> >
>> >another picture:
>> >http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/pgtsndclose.JPG
>> ><http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/pgtsndclose.JPG> 

I'm afraid I can't tell from the photo what is what.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 12 23:28:30 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id XAA09243;
	Sat, 12 Oct 2002 23:27:44 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 23:27:44 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Lifters and ion wind - Lifter.gif
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:27:04 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <mq3iquclrdh0q03kp8l9v4t3l7rpdfbjs5 4ax.com>
References: <8p25qugsu46h49ai5ojg0vscu4ufeme1p7 4ax.com> <v04210101b9c875434138@[192.168.123.4]>
In-Reply-To: <v04210101b9c875434138 [192.168.123.4]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id XAA09187
Resent-Message-ID: <"8kcYN2.0.GG2.V9Hgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48132
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Rick Monteverde's message of Tue, 8 Oct 2002 01:50:13 -1000:
Hi,
[snip]

>Robin -
>
>It seems the lifters may be coupling to a large mass of surrounding air, not just the small hissy jet of ion wind. But yes, eliminating the jets would 

I think you are probably correct. Any molecule picking up a charge will
experience considerable resistance from the rest of the air, and hence will not be able to rapidly accelerate toward the other electrode. Consequently
a cloud of charged plasma will build up between the electrodes, against which
the device can thrust. This cloud essentially couples to the rest of the atmosphere through friction.

However this need not be a disappointment! If the path from one electrode to the other is long and convoluted, then this could nevertheless provide a very
useful form of propulsion within the atmosphere.

(A long path may comprise the distance from the centre of the top of a flying saucer, all the way around the side to the centre of the bottom).
Needless to say, the body of the craft would need to be an insulator.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 13 10:52:52 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA30241;
	Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:51:51 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:51:51 -0700
Message-ID: <3DA9A705.3FDF2EA4 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 11:02:11 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
X-Accept-Language: en,pdf
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Oct 11, 2002]
References: <3DA73A6D.2D700C7C ix.netcom.com> <cpafquklmk6kjg4pqh2s4s4qs10mll27ot@4ax.com> <3DA82EA2.CCDEFC39@ix.netcom.com> <4a3hqukbm20juj9kgjuono37rcrtm16ikp@4ax.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
 boundary="------------6BF79AEA4744798E6EB99862"
Resent-Message-ID: <"3O32p3.0.RO7.tARgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48133
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------6BF79AEA4744798E6EB99862
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dean, I do not know where you get your information, but you need to talk to
a chemist and a medical doctor.  Clearly, you do not understand the nature
of silver.  For your own sake if you are using colloidal silver, you need to
get some facts.

Ed

Dean Miller wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Oct 2002 08:16:05 -0600, Edmund Storms
> <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >First of all silver is a poison that kills living cells.
>
> That's not entirely correct.

True, some cells are sufficiently robust or isolated from the Ag+ ion that
they are not affected.  However, you have no control over this and you can
kill cells that are important to the body.

>
>
> >That is
> >why it is a good germicide.  The Ag+ ion kills any cell that is in the
> >process of reproducing.
>
> It doesn't kill "any" cell.  There are cells that use silver (silver
> is a trace element needed by some cells in the body -- but is usually
> unavailable in the quantities needed in the current American food
> supply).

Where did you get this notion?  I have never seen silver listed as an
important trace element.

>
>
> >This includes cells in the body that are
> >important.  The material does not kill the body because the body can
> >repair the damage, while the bacteria can not.  In addition, the body
> >uses and needs certain bacteria, which the Ag+ will kill if it is taken
> >too often.
>
> That's also not correct.  The action of ionic silver in the body is
> available *only* in solution.  That is, in the upper digestive tract
> (but usually not the lower/large intestine which normally contains
> semi-solids), the blood and other liquid parts of the body.

I suggest you consult a good physiology text before you speculate on this
subject.  Most of the AgCl passes through the body into the stool.  Where
ever AgCl is present, a small concentration of Ag+ ions will also be
present.  The beauty of this method of Ag+ delivery is that the
concentration is fixed at a low level and it is more or less uniform
throughout the gut.

>
>
> What this means is that ionic silver will kill single (or few) cell
> pathogens in the stomach and small intestine -- both of which are
> supposed to be a sterile environment -- but not the large intestine,
> where the "good" bacteria resides.  The only time silver is effective
> in the large intestine is when the intestine's contents is liquid,
> usually produced by "bad" bacteria and results in diarrhea.  IOW,
> ionic silver will kill the bacteria in the large intestine only when
> the bacteria is producing unwanted effects.
>
> >  Therefore, it is dangerous to take colloidal silver on a
> >regular basis.
>
> No.  If you look up the longest lived populations in the world
> (Pyrenees, Andes, Caucuses, etc.), you'll notice several common
> characteristics.  They live in mountainous areas, these areas are the
> same places silver is mined (and other minerals), and they all use a
> yogurt-like food.  Mountain populations in areas that don't have a
> silver presence don't show the longevity characteristics.  The
> long-lived (many people are active -- horseback riding, etc. -- in
> their 100's) populations drink water and eat food containing
> relatively large amounts of silver, and have done so their entire
> lives.

All of the studies I have read about such people fail to mention the role of
silver at all.  On the other hand, many other factors in their life have
been studied extensively and make a lot more sense as a source of health.
In fact, silver is mined in many different places, including NM and CO. The
people in these areas show no special health benefits.

>
>
> Also, there are many (at least 10's of thousands) of people taking
> ionic (colloidal) silver daily in the US.  Almost all of them began
> using CS because they had a medical condition that was untreatable by
> conventional medicine, and the CS has either cured or greatly relieved
> their problem (problems such as Lyme disease).  Many of these people
> have been using CS for 10 years or more, and are much healthier than
> their peers.  Of course, the mindset that allowed them to use CS also
> allows them to pay more attention to their diets and other
> healthy-living protocols.

I agree, CS can cure disease.  The issue I'm raising is the absence of
informed or sensible use.  Like all medicine, this material needs to be used
properly!

>
>
> >  In addition, when colloidal silver is not made properly,
> >i.e. by using very pure water, a significant concentration of Ag+ ion is
> >produced in the solution.
>
> What's wanted is the Ag+ ion.  CS is most effective (for internal use)
> when it's at least 90% ionic.  The body also eliminates the excess
> silver from the body when it's taken as ions (instead of mild silver
> protein or other silver compounds).  That is, argyria is produced most
> readily from silver compounds and not low ppm ionic silver.  (Ionic
> silver apparently cannot easily be made at concentrations above about
> 50 to 100 ppm because the silver tends to agglomerate into larger
> particles.)

Dean, clearly you are not a chemist and have not studied silver chemistry,
as I have.  While you are correct in your statement that the silver ion is
the active component, the other statements are not correct.  All inorganic
silver compounds that are soluble are converted to very insoluble AgCl in
the stomach.  This can be shown to be the case very easily by simply mixing
the solution with dilute HCl or stomach acid in a test tube.  This process
reduces the concentration of Ag+  and reduces its poisonous effects.
Organic compounds, such as were used as nose drops in the past, are not
converted to AgCl, but instead are metabolized and the Ag+ is released in
the gut where it is absorbed without conversion to AgCl.  As a result, this
material rapidly delivers Ag+ to the blood and produces argyria before the
kidneys have a chance to lower the concentration.

>
>
> >This Ag+ ion is very poisonous and easily
> >absorbed into the blood while in the mouth, before it is converted to
> >AgCl in the stomach.
>
> There is some question about whether the Ag+ is combined with HCl in
> the stomach to make AgCl.  The few tests that have been performed
> imply AgCl isn't produced in any large percentage.  Nobody knows why
> not at the moment.  (It's been assumed for a long time that AgCl is
> produced in the stomach because it's "supposed to."  The silver
> wouldn't show up in the blood stream if it's in the form of AgCl,
> because it wouldn't pass the intestinal membranes.  But tests run on
> dogs show reasonable percentages of silver in the bloodstream when CS
> is introduced directly into the dogs' stomachs.)

A small concentration of Ag+ ions always accompany AgCl where ever it goes
in the gut.  The concentration depends on the Cl- concentration.  It is what
is called a buffered solution. A large influx of silver can reduce the Cl-
concentration to a level that allows a very high and poisonous level of Ag+
to exist as well as causing other problems produced by the low Cl-
concentration. Some of this Ag+ will be absorbed by the blood.  The
concentration in the blood will depend on how fast the body can remove this
poison.  If you keep taking silver, the small but steady supply of Ag+ will
create a stable but small concentration in the blood.  Sooner or later, this
burden on the body will be seen either as argyria or some other problem,
depending on kidney function.

>

>
>
> >It is this material that gets into the tissue and
> >produces graying.
>
> The silver that produces argyria is always combined with a protein or
> introduced in such a way as to combine with a protein or through the
> inhalation of high concentrations of silver dust.  Also, the silver
> concentration that produces argyria is in the range of 1000 to 10,000
> ppm or more as silver nitrate (1% or greater solution) or other
> compound.  It's the large amount of silver that produces argyria --
> and it must be taken frequently (many times daily) over a reasonable
> span of time, such as 6 months or more.  All known cases of argyria
> have been produced through the use of relatively large amounts of
> silver.  There is no known case of argyria from using 10 ppm ionic
> silver, as the sole source of water, for years (and decades).

You are correct, only a very high concentration of silver produces argyria.
This happens when the removal mechanisms in the kidney are overwhelmed.
Some kidneys are very efficient in this regard and some are not.  If you
have poor kidney function, you may get argyria much more readily than
someone else.  I guess it is up to you to make this test, which is
irreversible.

>
>
> >Therefore, a person who makes and ingests colloidal
> >silver would be well advised to gain some knowledge about what they are
> >doing and the nature of their product.  When made and used properly the
> >material is safe and effective.  Otherwise, the material can be
> >dangerous.
>
> Colloidal (ionic) silver produced through the low-voltage DC methods
> is completely safe and very effective as long as the proper (simple)
> procedure is followed.  The CS produced should measure about 15 to 20
> uS and have little or no Tyndall effect -- and should be completely
> clear.

I agree, this is the best material.  My concern is that people will not take
the time to understand just how to make CS correctly and use it
sensibility.  The people who promote this stuff are no help at all because
they take the approach that the scientific facts are made up by the
establishment, which can not be trusted.

Ed


--------------6BF79AEA4744798E6EB99862
Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
 name="storms2.vcf"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Edmund Storms
Content-Disposition: attachment;
 filename="storms2.vcf"

begin:vcard 
n:; 
tel;work:505 988 3673
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
url:http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html
org:Energy K. System
adr:;;2140 Paseo Ponderosa;Santa Fe;NM;87501;http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html
version:2.1
email;internet:storms2 ix.netcom.com
x-mozilla-cpt:;1
fn:Edmund Storms
end:vcard

--------------6BF79AEA4744798E6EB99862--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 13 15:38:49 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA10141;
	Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:38:07 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:38:07 -0700
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com
Message-Id: <v04210102b9cfa45f874f [192.168.123.4]>
In-Reply-To: <mq3iquclrdh0q03kp8l9v4t3l7rpdfbjs5 4ax.com>
References: <8p25qugsu46h49ai5ojg0vscu4ufeme1p7 4ax.com>
 <v04210101b9c875434138 [192.168.123.4]>
 <mq3iquclrdh0q03kp8l9v4t3l7rpdfbjs5 4ax.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 12:37:59 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Lifters and ion wind - Lifter.gif
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA10103
Resent-Message-ID: <"NzUUx.0.CU2.ENVgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48134
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Robin -

> However this need not be a disappointment!

My point exactly. Trying to find a mysterious, very weak, and probably non-existent anti-gravity force will likely be disappointing, but useful propulsion from ionic forces might yet be possible. I like the fact that ideally, it requires zero energy to hover above the ground when done right. The stuff on the desk in front of me is doing that righ now. The trick is confining the mobility of the particles between the hovering object and the ground - desk molecules inherently don't slip away easily! Air molecules do, but things might be done to mitigate that. Bill Beaty's air threads... magnetic confinement... ?

- Rick Monteverde,
Honolulu Hawaii

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 13 15:51:14 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA15126;
	Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:50:32 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:50:32 -0700
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:51:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Reply-To: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, konehead@msn.com
Subject: Everyone Please see references to "new" measurement method
In-Reply-To: <j90iquct0fepi5fhb7o4rbtadqbdp3otc8 4ax.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021013183920.29923Y-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"QIo1U3.0.Gi3.uYVgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48135
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


	Robin,

	My picture of the Prony brake was a leather strap that was fixed
at one end, 1/2 a turn around a drum..... then the strap depended straight
downward by way or gravity to a weight.

	Doug,

	Until the "new design" from the URL below and JLN's site is either
tested and-or calibrated it is probably better to use an accepted method
of some type to measure shaft power.


	To All:

	To determine if there is or is not over unity there are probably
two ways to do so:

	One is complex and one is simple 
	
	The complex one is to find, duplicate and use an accepted shaft
power measure and find duplicate and use an accepted complex electric
signal measure of power and make a series of overlapping and repeating
measures and computations.

	THE EASY and unambiguous way:

	If you are putting in about 1.5 watts electrical and are really
getting out about 2.7 watts mechanical then connect a generator or
alternator and rectifier to the mechanical shaft and run the system closed
loop. 

	


Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 22:44:27 -0700
From: konehead <konehead msn.com>
To: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Re: OVER UNITY Prony Brake Expert Needed TO SORT OUT CALCULATION

    [The following text is in the "iso-8859-1" character set]
    [Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set]
    [Some characters may be displayed incorrectly]

Hi guys

Here is what is going on:

A "brake" (for example. a hard plastic "C" ring with bolt "ends" of  "C")
is
tightened around shaft..It is simply a basic small motor prony brake as
described in Naudins site and mine...(under "testing procedures" link  on
my
site:
http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/scopeshotsandtests.html



On Sun, 13 Oct 2002, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  John Schnurer's message of Sat, 12 Oct 2002 23:40:26 -0400:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> 
> >
> >
> >	Dear Vo, Robin and Doug,
> >
> >	I think we need a little help.  I know I sure do.
> >
> >	EXACTLY how is the braking power of a Prony Brake calculated?
> 
> The original version invented by De Prony used a spring scale attached to a belt wrapped around a wheel or drum. However currently there seems to be a
> version in use that relies on a lever pressing a brake shoe against the wheel
> or drum. The lever is forced against the drum by a mass tied to the end of
> if by a cord. The notion being that the torque equals the force exerted by
> gravity on the mass, multiplied by the length of the lever arm.
> 
> However I must say that I am troubled by this version, as it appears
> to take no account of the fact the force thus exerted on the wheel/drum
> is perpendicular to the surface, and not parallel to it as in De Prony's
> original. As it is now perpendicular, it seems to me that in order to
> calculate the actual parallel force, one would need to apply some unknown
> coefficient of friction. Since this varies from one setup to the next,
> this incarnation of the concept would appear to be useless for power measurement.
> (Unless the break shoe is on the side, and is supported purely by friction
> from the rotating wheel. However I suspect that this would be difficult to
> get right in practice).
> 
> Upon considering all of this, I have changed my mind about the meaning of
> the phrase "1 foot length prony brake". I now think it probably refers
> to the length of such a lever arm.
> I also find the first part of the statement troubling:-
> "LOAD on scale". This appears to be saying that 1.5 oz was the reading on the scale. However, surely this is the mass still supported by the scale, 
> and the mass producing the friction force would be the actual mass minus the scale reading? (Unless the setup is a true De Prony brake, with spring scale,
> in which case "1 foot length prony brake" may indeed refer to the length
> of the cord.
> 
> In short, I think a diagram of the setup is in order, with measurements included.
> [snip]
> >> >LOAD TESTS with 1 ft PRONY BRAKE:
> >> >
> >> >Basic readings:
> >> >24.3V on battery during load test
> >> >50% duty cycle shown on scope
> >> >
> >> >RPM calculations:
> >> >4 pulse per rotation millisecond time CYCLE shown on scope:
> >> >
> >> >    14ms attractive pulse (on time)
> >> >     4ms gap  (off time)
> >> >    14ms repulsive pulse (on time)
> >> >  + 25ms gap (off time)
> >> >    57ms X 4 pulses = 228ms rotation cycle total = 60 /.228 = 263 RPM
> >> >
> >> >CURRENT during load shown on scope: (measuring voltage across .01 
> >> >shunt for curent readings)
> >> >
> >> >Note: 120ma peaks to pulse forms...
> >> >
> >> >Simple diagram of scope pulseform:
> >> >
> >> >          ^-    ^-               ^-
> >> >       _/   __/   ___25msgap___/  next pulse of cycle... 4 pulses
> >> >        14ms  14ms
> >> >           4msgap
> >> >
> >> >WATTS input = .120amps X 24.3Vdc X .5 duty cycle =
> >> >1.458 WATTS input during load test
> >> >
> >> >LOAD on scale with 1 foot length prony brake during these load tests:
> >> >1.5 ounce
> >> >
> >> >Weight of prony brake only on scale:
> >> >.3 ounce
> >> >
> >> >1.2 ounce actual torque from prony brake on scale
> >> >
> >> >1.2oz / 16 = .075 lbs torque from 1ft prony brake
> >> >
> >> >WATTS OUTPUT CALCULATED ON SHAFT:
> >> >
> >> >.075lbs X 263RPM / 5250 = .0037571HP X 746 =
> >> >2.8027 watts mechanical output
> >> >
> >> >another picture:
> >> >http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/pgtsndclose.JPG
> >> ><http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/pgtsndclose.JPG> 
> 
> I'm afraid I can't tell from the photo what is what.
> [snip]
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 
> Competition provides the motivation,
> Cooperation provides the means.
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 13 16:10:43 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA23826;
	Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:09:39 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:09:39 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Lifters and ion wind - Lifter.gif
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 09:09:00 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <hrujqu8ffukc807407j6vivfs2jj5j5ibm 4ax.com>
References: <8p25qugsu46h49ai5ojg0vscu4ufeme1p7 4ax.com> <v04210101b9c875434138@[192.168.123.4]> <mq3iquclrdh0q03kp8l9v4t3l7rpdfbjs5@4ax.com> <v04210102b9cfa45f874f@[192.168.123.4]>
In-Reply-To: <v04210102b9cfa45f874f [192.168.123.4]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id QAA23774
Resent-Message-ID: <"VLoNf.0.9q5.oqVgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48136
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

In reply to  Rick Monteverde's message of Sun, 13 Oct 2002 12:37:59 -1000:
Hi,
[snip]

>Robin -
>
>> However this need not be a disappointment!
>
>My point exactly. Trying to find a mysterious, very weak, and probably non-existent anti-gravity force will likely be disappointing, but useful propulsion from ionic forces might yet be possible. I like the fact that ideally, it requires zero energy to hover above the ground when done right. The stuff on the desk in front of me is doing that righ now. The trick is confining the mobility of the particles between the hovering object and the ground - desk molecules inherently don't slip away easily! Air molecules do, but things might be done to mitigate that. Bill Beaty's air threads... magnetic confinement... ?

I fear this may be a red herring. I don't think it's possible to confine them, and I also don't think it's really necessary. The resistance to the passage of ions (friction) would be in some way proportional to the length
of the external path connecting the electrodes. 
The implication here is that bigger is better. There is going to be a law of diminishing returns here however, so that beyond a certain size it won't make much difference any more.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 13 16:15:49 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA26212;
	Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:14:54 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:14:54 -0700
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Magnetic susceptibility of optically active crystals...
X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report
X-AntiAbuse: ID = f2243aae4bfded7e2ec5886fab795ba3
Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com
From: "Michael Foster" <michael.foster excite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com
X-Mailer: PHP
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-Id: <20021013231415.30CCF39AF xprdmailfe27.nwk.excite.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 19:14:15 -0400 (EDT)
Resent-Message-ID: <"Sr7vq1.0.LP6.jvVgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48137
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Interesting experiment, Nick.  Here's my guess as to what's going on.  The piezoelectric axis of the quartz crystal corresponds to the optical axis.  When you place the crystal on the balance the weight of the crystal itself creates enough stress on the crystal to make an electric field which is then concentrated by the conductive metal pan.  This is therefore a weak electromagnet with its own magnetic field.  Since the crystal is symmetrical along the optical axis, when you flip it over the effect is the same.

Possibly, if the crystal were suspended in a material of nearly identical specific gravity, some sort of dense casting resin for example, and if the crystal were isolated from the metal of the balance, the effect might go away.

Just a guess.

M.

------------------------------------------------
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 13 16:46:57 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA06642;
	Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:45:59 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:45:59 -0700
Message-ID: <003401c27312$a70dcbe0$5e201f41 woh.rr.com>
From: "Nicholas Reiter" <nreiter woh.rr.com>
To: "vortex-L" <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Magnetic susceptibility of optically active crystals...
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 19:45:46 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"s8kSD2.0.ed1.tMWgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48138
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Michael,

Thanks for the thoughts.  Here are a couple back...

The pan of the balance (which is a Stanton Unimatic milligram lab balance -
all mechanical) is stainless steel, and it is grounded through the hanger
assembly.

>From what I am seeing, though, as I study the lattice parameters and
properties of quartz, the piezoelectric properties exist along the X and Y
axes.  This is why crystals that are cultured for eventual slicing and use
in radios or oscillators are grown sideways, so to speak.  The starting
seeds in the autoclaved baths are pre-cut so the larger crystals that grow
are stubby and short on the c- axis, but maximized in either X or Y...to get
the most slices of piezoelectrically active material.  So from what I am
seeing, the piezoelectric effect is always at right angles to the optical or
c- axis.

Thanks,

NR


----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Foster" <michael.foster excite.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: Magnetic susceptibility of optically active crystals...


>
> Interesting experiment, Nick.  Here's my guess as to what's going on.  The
piezoelectric axis of the quartz crystal corresponds to the optical axis.
When you place the crystal on the balance the weight of the crystal itself
creates enough stress on the crystal to make an electric field which is then
concentrated by the conductive metal pan.  This is therefore a weak
electromagnet with its own magnetic field.  Since the crystal is symmetrical
along the optical axis, when you flip it over the effect is the same.
>
> Possibly, if the crystal were suspended in a material of nearly identical
specific gravity, some sort of dense casting resin for example, and if the
crystal were isolated from the metal of the balance, the effect might go
away.
>
> Just a guess.
>
> M.
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 13 20:57:59 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA04914;
	Sun, 13 Oct 2002 20:56:51 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 20:56:51 -0700
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Magnetic susceptibility of optically active crystals...
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:12:12 -0400
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMKELDDFAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
In-Reply-To: <003401c27312$a70dcbe0$5e201f41 woh.rr.com>
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Importance: Normal
X-Rcpt-To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"WQ1X72.0.hC1.22agz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48139
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Nick.

Crush a quartz crystal, and put the pulverized powder
into a mold. Add a binder ( perhaps superglue ) and
let harden. Use that in place of your aligned quartz
crystal for your test. I think all will agree that
if the effect disappears, we've eliminated a host
of potential artifacts.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Nicholas Reiter [mailto:nreiter woh.rr.com]
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 7:46 PM
To: vortex-L
Subject: Re: Magnetic susceptibility of optically active crystals...


Michael,

Thanks for the thoughts.  Here are a couple back...

The pan of the balance (which is a Stanton Unimatic milligram lab balance -
all mechanical) is stainless steel, and it is grounded through the hanger
assembly.

>From what I am seeing, though, as I study the lattice parameters and
properties of quartz, the piezoelectric properties exist along the X and Y
axes.  This is why crystals that are cultured for eventual slicing and use
in radios or oscillators are grown sideways, so to speak.  The starting
seeds in the autoclaved baths are pre-cut so the larger crystals that grow
are stubby and short on the c- axis, but maximized in either X or Y...to get
the most slices of piezoelectrically active material.  So from what I am
seeing, the piezoelectric effect is always at right angles to the optical or
c- axis.

Thanks,

NR


----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Foster" <michael.foster excite.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: Magnetic susceptibility of optically active crystals...


>
> Interesting experiment, Nick.  Here's my guess as to what's going on.  The
piezoelectric axis of the quartz crystal corresponds to the optical axis.
When you place the crystal on the balance the weight of the crystal itself
creates enough stress on the crystal to make an electric field which is then
concentrated by the conductive metal pan.  This is therefore a weak
electromagnet with its own magnetic field.  Since the crystal is symmetrical
along the optical axis, when you flip it over the effect is the same.
>
> Possibly, if the crystal were suspended in a material of nearly identical
specific gravity, some sort of dense casting resin for example, and if the
crystal were isolated from the metal of the balance, the effect might go
away.
>
> Just a guess.
>
> M.
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 13 21:17:46 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA13060;
	Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:17:08 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:17:08 -0700
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: [Fwd: What's New for Oct 11, 2002]
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:32:27 -0400
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMEELEDFAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
In-Reply-To: <3DA82EA2.CCDEFC39 ix.netcom.com>
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Importance: Normal
X-Rcpt-To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"r9N0q2.0.-B3.3Lagz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48140
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Ed.

If in fact the Ag+ ion is all that is necessary for
the antibacterial effect, than why bother with the
colloidal stuff at all? It would be much easier to
make a standardized silver solution with a salt
like a nitrate or perhaps better a chloride.

Or: put some salt in the distilled water, and electrolysis
at low voltage whilst measuring the current. Taking
into account the faraday efficiency, and the time, you'd know
exactly how much Ag you had in solution.

If folks question whether colloidal silver turns to a chloride
in the stomach, take some colloidal silver and
put a drop or two of HCl into it, and report back on
the results. Remember, ~2mg per L saturation.

K.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 13 21:23:25 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA15325;
	Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:22:05 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:22:05 -0700
X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: billb owned process doing -bs
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:22:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: ambient EM and faraday cage temperature
In-Reply-To: <000601c27180$08b30de0$76803841 metrogr.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.44.0210132057030.11619-100000 eskimo.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"BEgGC1.0.Nl3.jPagz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48141
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Great column on the Faraday cage Orgone claims!

I had similar thoughts when I found out that most building materials are
transparent to longwave IR.   (SWAT teams use thermal scanners to see
through walls if their IR sensitivity has low enough frequency... and most
warm objects emit microwaves which go right through any insulator.)

Imagine that you're inside a conventional building trying to measure
temperature accurately.  Now imagine that the walls are made of glass, and
despite the temperature of the walls themselves, any hot or cold objects
outside the building are blasting the inside of the room with longwave IR.
Will a black object in the room become warmer than a white one?
Certainly, and opaque objects such as metals should become warmer than
transparent objects such as sheetrock, paint, wood, etc.

A nice thick coating of carbon-black paint on the walls should stop all
those powerful terahertz beams from the cold or warm distant objects. But
will carbon paint interact with orgone?  Maybe the evidence for "orgone"
was just an infrared artifact to begin with.


Science:  making tenative conclusions and then testing them to see if
they're wrong.  Doing your damnedest to disprove your own claims.
Reality is determined by careful testing, so informed, thoughtful critics
are your dearest allies in the battle to unveil the truth.

Pseudoscience:  Knowing what's true beforehand, then looking for
supporting evidence.  Getting all huffy and defensive if anyone dares to
question your claims.  Reality just a construction of your mind, and all
critics are "paradigm blind" or "negative thinkers" trying to promote
their own version of truth, so we must ignore them lest they damage our
confidence.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 13 21:58:27 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA27341;
	Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:57:40 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:57:40 -0700
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Magnetic susceptibility of optically active crystals...
X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report
X-AntiAbuse: ID = 7adb6e7cdf97ad46b6cc4784898152b6
Reply-To: michael.foster excite.com
From: "Michael Foster" <michael.foster excite.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: michael.foster excite.com
X-Mailer: PHP
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-Id: <20021014045658.EBE1FBF51 xmxpita.excite.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:56:58 -0400 (EDT)
Resent-Message-ID: <"2tR0n1.0.2h6.3xagz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48142
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Still just guessing:  Grounding of the metal balance would have no effect on the electrical field created piezoelectrically.  It's a field, not a current.

And, actually, now that I think about it, it's even better if the piezoelectric effect happens at right angles to the optical axis.  In other words, the crystal kind of flattens out a bit on the c-axis and stretches on the x and/or y.  Amazing the sort of crap you can come up with when you're not the one doing the actual experiment.

In the back of my mind is rattling around the idea that Faraday did this experiment or something closely related.  I'm almost certain that he at least found some diamagnetic anisotropy in quartz crystals.

M.




------------------------------------------------
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 14 00:45:32 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id AAA19678;
	Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:44:48 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:44:48 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Everyone Please see references to "new" measurement method
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:44:13 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <j3skqusjb9rj3hh1olcbhenitn2v8p7vg7 4ax.com>
References: <j90iquct0fepi5fhb7o4rbtadqbdp3otc8 4ax.com> <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021013183920.29923Y-100000@college.antioch-college.edu>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021013183920.29923Y-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id AAA19653
Resent-Message-ID: <"2mqiY3.0.Op4.lNdgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48143
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  John Schnurer's message of Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:51:11 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/scopeshotsandtests.html

The Prony brake pictured here is precisely the sort I have a major problem with. 
I don't believe the torque is easily calculated as mass x g x arm length, because it isn't the rotation of the shaft that is supporting the arm. It's the rigidity of the shaft itself. Hence the relationship to the
the real torque contains a factor of the coefficient of friction.
In short this Prony brake provides misleading information.

By way of explanation consider the situation where the motor is rotating, and the scale shows
some value, leading to a calculated power value. Now add a drop of oil to the bearing to reduce the friction.
The scale shows the *same reading*, but the rpm goes up, so if this method
of determining the torque were valid, we would calculate a higher power output for the motor, despite the drop in friction in the "bearing".

In short this device doesn't correctly measure the torque IMO.

(The actual friction force would be the vertical force applied by the brake shoe, multiplied by a coefficient of friction that varies from one brake shoe to the next, and probably even from one day to the next, depending on humidity).
This coefficient could be anything from 0 to infinite.
[snip]
>> Upon considering all of this, I have changed my mind about the meaning of
>> the phrase "1 foot length prony brake". I now think it probably refers
>> to the length of such a lever arm.

This appears to be correct, based upon the picture on the web site.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 14 02:18:22 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id CAA17143;
	Mon, 14 Oct 2002 02:17:31 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 02:17:31 -0700
From: Dean Miller <dtmiller midiowa.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: What's New for Oct 11, 2002]
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 04:18:56 -0500
Organization: Miller and Associates
Message-ID: <6s1lquc19rdafk2bj8e5brgn6rqdlemoku 4ax.com>
References: <3DA73A6D.2D700C7C ix.netcom.com> <cpafquklmk6kjg4pqh2s4s4qs10mll27ot@4ax.com> <3DA82EA2.CCDEFC39@ix.netcom.com> <4a3hqukbm20juj9kgjuono37rcrtm16ikp@4ax.com> <3DA9A705.3FDF2EA4@ix.netcom.com>
In-Reply-To: <3DA9A705.3FDF2EA4 ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id CAA17085
Resent-Message-ID: <"RKTZm3.0.bB4.gkegz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48144
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

On Sun, 13 Oct 2002 11:02:11 -0600, Edmund Storms
<storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Dean, I do not know where you get your information, but you need to talk to
>a chemist and a medical doctor.  

I've talked extensively with several chemists on the subject.  I've
attempted to talk to medical doctors but they are ill informed about
the medical literature on silver in general and ionic silver in
particular.  And they won't look up anything in the databases to which
they have access (I've read more papers than they know existed in the
few places I can access).

>Clearly, you do not understand the nature
>of silver.  For your own sake if you are using colloidal silver, you need to
>get some facts.

I have been, for over 10 years.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 14 03:42:19 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id DAA09407;
	Mon, 14 Oct 2002 03:41:23 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 03:41:23 -0700
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Sender: rick mail.highsurf.com
Message-Id: <v04210109b9d047e8f35b [192.168.123.4]>
In-Reply-To: <hrujqu8ffukc807407j6vivfs2jj5j5ibm 4ax.com>
References: <8p25qugsu46h49ai5ojg0vscu4ufeme1p7 4ax.com>
 <v04210101b9c875434138 [192.168.123.4]>
 <mq3iquclrdh0q03kp8l9v4t3l7rpdfbjs5 4ax.com>
 <v04210102b9cfa45f874f [192.168.123.4]>
 <hrujqu8ffukc807407j6vivfs2jj5j5ibm 4ax.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:41:15 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Lifters and ion wind - Lifter.gif
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id DAA09384
Resent-Message-ID: <"hNjf61.0.vI2.Jzfgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48145
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Robin -

At 9:09 AM +1000 10/14/02, Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
>There is going to be a law of diminishing returns here however, so that beyond a certain size it won't make much difference any more.


I think that law here is Reynolds Number. With increasing size, friction fades and mass looms. I think mass is the key. I bet you're right about distance between electrodes. More mass coupled to the gizmo.

This leads me to another design question though. Lifters couple to mass by  charging it, but then just sit there waiting for the charges to propel themselves away from the mass of the lifter. Works too, but only small forces are generated. Wouldn't it be better if once the charged air mass is set up, the electrodes moved against the ion cloud for an extra push? IOW, a vertical column of multiple electrodes could work as pairs in 'caterpillar' mode by alternating their charge in downward waves. Makes me wonder about that "gravity rocket" on Bill B.'s site, discussed on the lists from time to time. Might be a one-shot caterpillar ion drive as charge spills down the column of plates, driving out a slug of charged air ahead of the advancing charge concentration on the inside edges of the plate stack.

- Rick Monteverde,
Honolulu Hawaii

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 14 13:33:50 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA04988;
	Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:30:52 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 13:30:52 -0700
X-Originating-IP: [64.24.64.163]
From: "Patrick Dowland" <patrick_dowland hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: New features on the Aetherometry website (fwd)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:30:16 -0400
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F113Sw3wnHSFKhVmdkM0001f5ad hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2002 20:30:16.0785 (UTC) FILETIME=[81C48410:01C273C0]
Resent-Message-ID: <"QG3V-2.0.rD1.ybogz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48146
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:17:33 -0400
From: Aetherometry Info <info aetherometry.com>
Subject: New features on the Aetherometry website

AKRONOS Publishing would like to announce the release, on its website,
of the following new features:

-  ABRI Monograph AS2-28:
    Correa, P & Correa, A (2002)
    "Fundamental measurement of biological energies 1:
    Overview of bioenergetic investigations"

    Abstract at: http://www.aetherometry.com/abs-AS2v4.html#abstractAS2-28

The monograph traces our understanding of the nature of the energies
deployed by living systems, from its shamanistic and religious origins
to the current scientific schools of thought.


-  Correa, P & Correa, A
    "Our impressions and appreciation of the Second Berlin Conference
    on Innovative Energy Technologies"

    http://www.aetherometry.com/berlin.html

The conference, organized by Binnotec e.V., took place on June 13-15th,
2002, at the Berlin Messe.


Yours,

Laura McFinlay
Akronos Publishing




_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 14 14:15:56 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA25666;
	Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:13:25 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 14:13:25 -0700
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: New features on the Aetherometry website (fwd)
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:28:42 -0400
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMAELIDFAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
In-Reply-To: <F113Sw3wnHSFKhVmdkM0001f5ad hotmail.com>
Importance: Normal
X-Rcpt-To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"6WIOM3.0.sG6.rDpgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48147
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Paulo

Thanks for posting your review of the Berlin
Conference, for those of us not present it's
good to hear from as many sources as possible.
I enjoyed reading it, even the parts about us
hellspawn'd agents of Satan, Vort's.

Please keep us updated on your PAGD work, it's
intriguing stuff.

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Dowland [mailto:patrick_dowland hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 4:30 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: New features on the Aetherometry website (fwd)


Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:17:33 -0400
From: Aetherometry Info <info aetherometry.com>
Subject: New features on the Aetherometry website

AKRONOS Publishing would like to announce the release, on its website,
of the following new features:

-  ABRI Monograph AS2-28:
    Correa, P & Correa, A (2002)
    "Fundamental measurement of biological energies 1:
    Overview of bioenergetic investigations"

    Abstract at: http://www.aetherometry.com/abs-AS2v4.html#abstractAS2-28

The monograph traces our understanding of the nature of the energies
deployed by living systems, from its shamanistic and religious origins
to the current scientific schools of thought.


-  Correa, P & Correa, A
    "Our impressions and appreciation of the Second Berlin Conference
    on Innovative Energy Technologies"

    http://www.aetherometry.com/berlin.html

The conference, organized by Binnotec e.V., took place on June 13-15th,
2002, at the Berlin Messe.


Yours,

Laura McFinlay
Akronos Publishing




_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 14 15:10:38 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA22268;
	Mon, 14 Oct 2002 15:09:09 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 15:09:09 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Lifters and ion wind - Lifter.gif
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:08:33 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <8jemqukr8gjddkjfs921d4bhcbuunentnm 4ax.com>
References: <8p25qugsu46h49ai5ojg0vscu4ufeme1p7 4ax.com> <v04210101b9c875434138@[192.168.123.4]> <mq3iquclrdh0q03kp8l9v4t3l7rpdfbjs5@4ax.com> <v04210102b9cfa45f874f@[192.168.123.4]> <hrujqu8ffukc807407j6vivfs2jj5j5ibm@4ax.com> <v04210109b9d047e8f35b@[192.168.123.4]>
In-Reply-To: <v04210109b9d047e8f35b [192.168.123.4]>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id PAA22234
Resent-Message-ID: <"_wf5Z3.0.rR5.42qgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48148
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Rick Monteverde's message of Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:41:15 -1000:
Hi,
[snip]

>This leads me to another design question though. Lifters couple to mass by  charging it, but then just sit there waiting for the charges to propel themselves away from the mass of the lifter. 

Newton's third law. Because the mass is charged, it is acted on by the field,
resulting in a force acting on the origin of that field. However the effective mass is larger than the charged particles alone, because of friction between the charged particles and the rest of the air.
BTW this thing would really move in fresh water ;)

>Works too, but only small forces are generated. Wouldn't it be better if once the charged air mass is set up, the electrodes moved against the ion cloud for an extra push? 

That's exactly what happens. The reason that the forces are "so small", is that the distance is too short, allowing the charges to reach the other electrode without coupling to much air. There is probably a laminar flow
which is "short circuiting" the device.
In fact it might prove useful to put ridges on the surface perpendicular to the flow, designed to break it up and generate vortices parallel with the surface. That would really lengthen the path, and increase the couple considerably.


>IOW, a vertical column of multiple electrodes could work as pairs in 'caterpillar' mode by alternating their charge in downward waves. Makes me wonder about that "gravity rocket" on Bill B.'s site, discussed on the lists from time to time. Might be a one-shot caterpillar ion drive as charge spills down the column of plates, driving out a slug of charged air ahead of the advancing charge concentration on the inside edges of the plate stack.
>
>- Rick Monteverde,
>Honolulu Hawaii

As I see it, the problem with this arrangement, and also with all current lifters, is that every effort is made to enhance the flow, while IMO one should be making every effort to disrupt the flow.
In fact ideally the air should remain completely still, and act as a monolithic block against which one can "push off" (as you previously pointed out).
This is because conservation of energy and momentum imply that most of the energy is imparted to the object with the smaller mass, which means that you need to ensure that the mass of the air "block" is much greater than that of
your craft, resulting in most of the energy ending up as kinetic energy of your craft, iso as wasted kinetic energy of the air.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 14 15:51:22 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA08702;
	Mon, 14 Oct 2002 15:49:41 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 15:49:41 -0700
Message-ID: <3DAB4ADC.CB95B57E ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 15:53:16 -0700
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472  (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Use of silver commercially for drinking
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"gMXJH3.0.t72.5eqgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48149
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Oct 14, 2002

Vortex,

A bit of trivia.
My wife is into using filtered water using a Brita unit with their
replaceable cartridges. The cartridge contains, among some things,
silver particles which are suppose to have germicidal action .
I do feel 'blue' at times. I wonder if this is due to Brita? : )

-ak-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 14 19:32:35 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA20384;
	Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:30:57 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:30:57 -0700
Message-ID: <20021015023016.70725.qmail web40406.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:30:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: OVER UNITY Prony Brake Expert Needed TO SORT OUT CALCULATION 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <j90iquct0fepi5fhb7o4rbtadqbdp3otc8 4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"0LGAW1.0.Q-4.Wttgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48150
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Ah.. 

De Prony break torque gauge.

There are some desturbing things to consider here as to the accuracy of
this device and any other device that you use to measure force or power.

First you need to know exactly what you are looking for.

Just an example.  The De Prony spring system is great because it does not
care about orintation and responds to changes in break torque quickly. 
However.  It may be effected by temperature, vibration, magnetic fields
and so on.   The lever/balance version (wich is no a De Prony) cares not
for temperature or magnetic fields however requires exact orientation and
constant break torque.

I can be tricky


  

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 14 21:14:29 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA26193;
	Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:13:00 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:13:00 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OVER UNITY Prony Brake Expert Needed TO SORT OUT CALCULATION 
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:12:23 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <fc5nqus1ceakf1i7p4nr4pfs32sr6qonbd 4ax.com>
References: <j90iquct0fepi5fhb7o4rbtadqbdp3otc8 4ax.com> <20021015023016.70725.qmail@web40406.mail.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <20021015023016.70725.qmail web40406.mail.yahoo.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA26152
Resent-Message-ID: <"bQs7e3.0.AP6.BNvgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48151
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Charles Ford's message of Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:30:16 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>I can be tricky

You certainly can ;)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 14 21:17:04 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA27908;
	Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:16:12 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 21:16:12 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OVER UNITY Prony Brake Expert Needed TO SORT OUT CALCULATION 
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:15:36 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <lf5nquk0pe06a9r9fc6dim2076fpb4qad9 4ax.com>
References: <j90iquct0fepi5fhb7o4rbtadqbdp3otc8 4ax.com> <20021015023016.70725.qmail@web40406.mail.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <20021015023016.70725.qmail web40406.mail.yahoo.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id VAA27872
Resent-Message-ID: <"-zdfg1.0.yp6.BQvgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48152
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Charles Ford's message of Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:30:16 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>and so on.   The lever/balance version (wich is no a De Prony) cares not
>for temperature or magnetic fields however requires exact orientation and
>constant break torque.
>
>I can be tricky
[snip]
I think that if you examine the photo closely you will see that they are not even using this version. They simply have a clamp around the shaft. The pressure applied to the clamp is determined by the weight.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 14 22:23:40 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA20863;
	Mon, 14 Oct 2002 22:22:53 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 22:22:53 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OVER UNITY Prony Brake Expert Needed TO SORT OUT CALCULATION 
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:22:19 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <789nqucd907r5v9t1rf5p8s15kt0j8rn2d 4ax.com>
References: <j90iquct0fepi5fhb7o4rbtadqbdp3otc8 4ax.com> <20021015023016.70725.qmail@web40406.mail.yahoo.com> <lf5nquk0pe06a9r9fc6dim2076fpb4qad9@4ax.com>
In-Reply-To: <lf5nquk0pe06a9r9fc6dim2076fpb4qad9 4ax.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id WAA20835
Resent-Message-ID: <"Vktyd.0.v55.jOwgz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48153
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

In reply to  Robin van Spaandonk's message of Tue, 15 Oct 2002 14:15:36 +1000:
Hi,

I just took another look at this page, and I see that I was completely wrong.
There is no hinge etc. The shaft from the motor is also the shaft for the Prony brake, so that it does in fact measure torque correctly.

[snip]
>[snip]
>I think that if you examine the photo closely you will see that they are not even using this version. They simply have a clamp around the shaft. The pressure applied to the clamp is determined by the weight.
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 15 08:46:56 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id IAA23371;
	Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:44:38 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:44:38 -0700
Message-ID: <20021015154401.48379.qmail web40412.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:44:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: OVER UNITY Prony Brake Expert Needed TO SORT OUT CALCULATION 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
In-Reply-To: <lf5nquk0pe06a9r9fc6dim2076fpb4qad9 4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Resent-Message-ID: <"n7wDT3.0.xi5.cV3hz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48154
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> >
> >I(insert "t") can be tricky              Geese!

> [snip]
> I think that if you examine the photo closely you will see that they
> are not even using this version. They simply have a clamp around the
> shaft. The pressure applied to the clamp is determined by the weight.
> 
Rogin:

After my reply I looked at the article and yes It does look like they are
depending on some component of pressure / friction to bring out a force. 
That may have nothing to do with the actual torque. Also there is no
balance so you have to get a zero measurement.  Which will be dependent
on motor cogging...   

Is there some aversion to purchasing a pre assembled De Prony gauge?  I
think you can get the type used for tape decks for less then a couple
hundred bucks.  Look for a "Cap and Spool Torque Meter"   This meter will
give you a mechanical average which is what you  need to measure anyway.

At BMD we used a set of automobile alternators and a pulley to load a
motor.  A toy motor and variable resister can do the same for smaller
applications.  The test motor was mounted on a two-layer plate where
torque was measured between the two layers with strain a gauge.  We had a
balance bar to check the calibration.  

Horsepower measurement can be tough enough in order to generate a
performance envelope you need to be able to freely alter power and drag. 




=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 15 10:42:13 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA22382;
	Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:39:41 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 10:39:41 -0700
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05111b02b9d157ebaffa [64.61.198.153]>
In-Reply-To: <3DAB4ADC.CB95B57E ix.netcom.com>
References: <3DAB4ADC.CB95B57E ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 12:40:12 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Use of silver commercially for drinking
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"nRAFT3.0.eT5.TB5hz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48155
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>Oct 14, 2002
>
>Vortex,
>
>A bit of trivia.
>My wife is into using filtered water using a Brita unit with their
>replaceable cartridges. The cartridge contains, among some things,
>silver particles which are suppose to have germicidal action .
>I do feel 'blue' at times. I wonder if this is due to Brita? : )
>
>-ak-

According to Phil Ratte', who helped me write my book on controlling 
the effects of aging, you need a trace amount of silver, but it has 
to be colloidial form.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 18 07:49:25 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA07734;
	Fri, 18 Oct 2002 07:48:15 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 07:48:15 -0700
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05111b0db9d5569264d5 [209.23.136.45]>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 09:49:02 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"LWqDr2.0.mu1.ly1iz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Unidentified subject!
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48156
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I'm a big fan of Issiac Newton, this website gives a brief over view 
of his life and works http://historicist.com/Newton/title.htm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 18 07:53:49 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA09368;
	Fri, 18 Oct 2002 07:51:46 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 07:51:46 -0700
X-Sent: 18 Oct 2002 14:51:40 GMT
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021018105120.02c7c170 mail.DIRECTVInternet.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell mail.DIRECTVInternet.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:51:36 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Test
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"MSDz91.0.HI2.202iz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48157
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Messages not getting through.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 18 08:00:42 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id HAA11439;
	Fri, 18 Oct 2002 07:58:16 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 07:58:16 -0700
X-Sent: 18 Oct 2002 14:58:09 GMT
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021018105759.02c067c0 mail.DIRECTVInternet.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell mail.DIRECTVInternet.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:58:04 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Latest on LENR-CANR.org - repeat
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id HAA11404
Resent-Message-ID: <"-_rAN.0.bo2.762iz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48158
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

[This message did not come through to me.]

We have great new stuff on LENR-CANR.org for cold fusion aficionados, and 
even something for people who hate cold fusion. Recently uploaded material 
includes:

Jon Warner's ICCF-9 poster material, with great photos!

http://lenr-canr.org/features

Selected pages from EPRI's definitive report on cold fusion, “Development 
of Advanced Concepts for Nuclear Processes in Deuterated Metal”

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/McKubreMCHdevelopmen.pdf


Our first paper in French, J. P. Biberian, "Rapport sur L’International 
Conference on Cold Fusion ICCF9, Pékin, Chine, 20-24 mai 2002"

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/BiberianJPrapportsur.pdf


To please the pathological skeptics, a link to an on-line copy of ERAB, 
“Report of the Cold Fusion Panel to the Energy Research Advisory Board.” 
The link is the index and in a short introductory document with snide 
comments by me.

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ERABreportofth.pdf


Pathological skeptics often think that palladium deuteride is "simple" and 
well understood. The late D. Morrison took this "simplification" to 
extremes, once commenting, "metal is metal: nickel or palladium, it’s the 
same thing.” Here is a good antidote for such delusions:

Oriani, R.A., "The Physical and Metallurgical Aspects of Hydrogen in Metals"

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/OrianiRAthephysica.pdf

- Jed 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 18 10:54:02 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA20947;
	Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:52:25 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:52:25 -0700
X-Sent: 18 Oct 2002 17:52:25 GMT
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021018135106.03f3a440 mail.DIRECTVInternet.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell mail.DIRECTVInternet.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:51:58 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Podkletnov anti-grav in Slate
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"bTkR-2.0.D75.Of4iz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48159
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Good summary. See:

http://slate.msn.com/default.aspx?id=2072733

- JR


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 18 20:48:25 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA25131;
	Fri, 18 Oct 2002 20:47:31 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 20:47:31 -0700
Message-ID: <3DB0D6AD.BEF85706 ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 20:51:09 -0700
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472  (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Oct 18, 2002]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"gvAyd2.0.Z86.JNDiz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48160
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Oct 18, 2002
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:12:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 18 Oct 02    Washington, DC

1. THE KIM IL JUNG BOMB: NORTH KOREA FLAUNTS ITS CAPABILITY.  The
U.S. is prepared to go to war with the Iraqis because they have
an unstable leader, and may have weapons of mass destruction.  Is
there another country that fits that description?  Yes, but it
has no oil.  Under a 1994 agreement, North Korea agreed to halt
its nuclear weapons development in exchange for proliferation-
resistant nuclear power plants.  Now, confronted with new U.S.
intelligence, North Korea responds with a sort of in-your-face
admission that not only has its program been going on in secret,
they have enough stuff to make nuclear weapons.  And, like Iraq,
it seems they've been focusing on highly enriched uranium.  On
the other hand Kim Il Jung never tried to kill Bush's dad.

2. PATENTLY ABSURD: THERE ARE A LOT OF SCREWY PATENTS OUT THERE.
The standards have been too lax, and the Patent Office knows it. 
Patents are reexamined in extreme cases, such as hydrinos (WN 6
Sep 02) and the motionless electromagnetic generator (WN 23 Aug
02), but it's rare.  However, a provision in the Patent and
Trademark Office Authorization Act making it clear that it's
never too late to reexamine a patent if substantial new questions
of patentability are raised, should help (WN 6 Sep 02).  

3. THEOLOGICAL GYNECOLOGY: PURGING SCIENCE ADVISORY COMMITTEES. 
Every administration seeks to load advisory committees with like-
minded experts, but the practice seems to have reached a new
level.  In a particularly controversial case, W. David Hager, an
obstetrician-gynecologist who strongly opposes abortions, has
been asked to serve on the FDA panel that reviews reproductive
health drugs.  Hager is the author of As Jesus Cared for Women, 
in which he promotes the healing power of faith in Jesus.
 
4. CREATIONISM: OHIO PLAN IS NOT VERY INTELLIGENTLY DESIGNED.   
A committee of the Ohio Board of Education has recommended that
science classes emphasize both evolution and the debate over its
validity.  Individual school districts would decide whether to
include intelligent design in the debate.  The plan would imply
that creationism in whatever guise is a scientific alternative. 

5. THE SNIPER: DO YOU TAKE THE STAIRS INSTEAD OF THE ELEVATOR? 
After all, people get killed when elevators fall.  Oops, people
also get killed tripping on the stairs. Here in Washington, a
local TV station offered advice on how to bob and weave while
filling your gas tank, and some people have been driving miles
out of town to fill up.  Do they have any idea what the fatality
rate is on our roads?  Others just stay home.  Maybe we should
explain to people that you're as unlikely to be the sniper's
target as you are to be struck by a falling tree.  

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 19 05:37:39 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA13374;
	Sat, 19 Oct 2002 05:36:15 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 05:36:15 -0700
From: ConexTom aol.com
Message-ID: <d6.1e45b82b.2ae2aad6 aol.com>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 08:32:22 EDT
Subject: The Game of Life & The Creation of New Universes From Complexe Energy Patterns
To: newsonline bbc.co.uk, drboylan@sbcglobal.net, thebishop@usadatanet.net,
        mediator mint.ocn.ne.jp, prj@mail.msen.com,
        Roundtable7 yahoogroups.com, riverwaves7@hotmail.com,
        vortex-l eskimo.com, Wangus@yahoogroups.com, reader@guardian.co.uk,
        economicaffairs parliament.uk
CC: tom rhfweb.com, ConexTom@aol.com, aelewis@provide.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_d6.1e45b82b.2ae2aad6_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 8.0 for Windows US sub 180
Resent-Message-ID: <"xUSnU1.0.tG3.-6Liz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48161
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


--part1_d6.1e45b82b.2ae2aad6_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The Game of Life & The Creation of New Universes From Complex Energy Patterns

The game of life, is a computer program, which simulates the chaotic energy 
patterns in our present physical universe, to create geometric objects from 
the basic logical rules of cellular automata, and the approximation of 
randomness, which generates basic geometric patterns over generations of the 
game cycles approximating the process and evolutions of life defined by the 
rules of genesis and the culture of the game.   We can use this basic game 
model above to simulate how our modern universe and world may have been 
created from simple energy patterns to evolve to complex energy patterns that 
may lead to new universes of being often called paradise or God. 

In the game of life, as explained in the book, A New Kind of Science by 
Stephen Wolfram, <A HREF="www.wolfram-media.com">www.wolfram-media.com</A>, there are several sets of basic 
cellular automata rules numbered 1 to 4, which generate different primitive 
geometric worlds made of patterns, series and cycles, of geometric objects 
such as triangles, pyramids, and more complex geometric objects such as 
fractals. 

The above book also explains how to simulate free will and the conscious mind 
in the game by using random processes to create the illusion of free will. 
And even in math theory it can be argued that random processes based on seeds 
and rules of random series generation may not really exist in our universe.   
The above book also explains how the unconscious mind is often very 
predictable, and more robotic than the conscious mind and free will which is 
more random.   

In nature the basic structures of the universe and life, may be modeled by 
automata sets that use the basic rules of Quantum mechanics and physics to 
generate simple and complex energy patterns, which may then generate forms of 
geometric objects with properties such as the basic elements and compounds of 
our material universe. 
If we use these above modern physical models of nature, we may then assume 
that simple life forms may generate their physical forms from basic geometric 
objects, patterns, and cycles described by mathematical rules and models such 
as fractals which most plants use to create plant forms.   

As simple life forms such as cells and plants evolve over time they may then 
generate into more complex physical and geometrical structures of life such 
as animal forms and instincts in animal forms.  Then later the animal forms 
may also evolve not only physically into more complex animal forms such as 
the modern human body, but also into more complex social structures and 
conscious energy structures and patterns.  Each class of animal forms and 
complex animal forms in nature follows a different set of automata rules and 
historical evolutionary rules that created their physical form, culture, and 
consciousness, so that each class of complex animal forms which may make up 
the various different advanced cultures and societies on Earth presently, may 
lead to very different complex social patterns and conscious patterns, which 
could lead to new universes of being, that are so different from our present 
universe, that a new universe may be made or a doorway to a new universe may 
be made, by the conscious energy patterns of the cultures that encourage 
these new complex societies and even environments.  In some cases a new 
universe may be created on another planet in our present universe or in 
another magnetic dimension in our universe, but also a completely new 
universe separate from our universe may also be created to create a 
multiverse. 

It possible then for cultures on Earth presently, to focus their social 
structures and conscious structures over many ages of evolution, to create a 
new universe and a doorway to a new universe, which may then in a sense 
create a paradisal realm or universe of being, for the culture, which may 
have new energy patterns and rules or a new aether sometimes called God, that 
may create and ensure the paradisiacal universe, defined by the historical 
evolutions of the consciousness and physical forms of the culture.   If one 
looks at the different cultures on Earth, and the goals and properties of 
each culture, some cultures define very idealistic universes which believe in 
semi-eternal and eternal paradisiacal realms of being, with an aether called 
God who is just and loving eternally at all times for all life forms in 
perfect harmony, while other cultures such as communistic cultures define 
very primitive, violent and materialistic universes with an aether called 
nature and no God, which seems to model our present universe and Earth more 
accurately presently.  

It is possible for the cultures on Earth, who believe in a new consciousness, 
and universe of being called paradise or God, to actually create this new 
universe by means of conscious evolutions of the history of their thoughts to 
create a doorway or pathway by means of natural ascension or physical space 
travel to another planet, dimensions or multiverse realm which resembles this 
new universe of being.  This means that cultures on Earth that believe in 
various different images of God, divine beings, or paradisiacal worlds,  may 
actually create these new worlds over time, and then migrate their cultures 
to these  new world or universes of being.  It is also possible to use 
computers to model the process of nature, physical bodies, consciousness and 
society of a given culture over many stages or ages of evolutions, and create 
a holographic model of that cultures projected future, and this computer 
model could be used to create a holographic teleportation doorway to a new 
ideal universe for the culture modeled in the computer.  Teleportation 
doorways to new universes of being may be made naturally through the natural 
consciousness and physical bodies or by means of artificial computer models 
as well which may approximate them.  The computer models may be slightly off, 
and just a few degrees of difference in a computer model may teleport life 
forms and cultures an ideal universe also just few degrees different from the 
natural model and natural teleportation doorway. 

So that if God or a paradisiacal universe of being does not presently exist 
in our universe of being, it is possible for God or paradisiacal universe to 
be created in conception on Earth or in our Universe, which may then lead to 
a new universe in the future which may in fact have an energy aether that is 
similar to God or a paradisiacal aether that guarantees the ideal, peaceful 
happy, and eternal goals of the cultures of consciousness and physical forms 
that created the new universe and aether energy patterns. 

One could also ask were the basic geometrical forms that create the logic of 
the basic rules that generate such forms came from.  There must be a 
spiritual energy force, which guides nature and the physical forms of nature 
to create basic geometrical objects which create basic life forms such as 
plants and animal forms, otherwise nature in our universe would never go 
beyond the basic chaotic and random processes of nature and energy.   And 
each class of animal form in nature which leads to complex animal forms and 
cultures by means of an evolutionary process must follow an energy force, 
from the beginning or genesis of the idea of the future life form and ideal 
culture and society to the final end creation of such an ideal paradisiacal 
world, promised land or universe for the culture.  And in this sense, the end 
goals of the cultures create the spiritual force that guides the patterns of 
energy and form the original genesis of the culture to its end paths or ideal 
universe of being. 

God or a divine universe of being may then be defined as energy patterns from 
the genesis to the completion of the creation of the ideal divine 
paradisiacal universes for any culture on Earth.  This means that since many 
of our ideal notions of God and paradisiacal universes may not presently 
exist on Earth or perhaps in our Universe yet, they may exist in the future 
energy states of our universe, or in another universe that our cultures may 
migrate to.  It can be stated that if God does not exist yet in our universe, 
God may exist in the future of our universe or another universe which we may 
migrate or evolve to eventually.


Respectfully,


Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron
Thomas Clark
tom rhfweb.com
<A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A>







] 

















--part1_d6.1e45b82b.2ae2aad6_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">The Game of Life &amp; The Creation of New Universes From Complex Energy Patterns<BR>
<BR>
The game of life, is a computer program, which simulates the chaotic energy patterns in our present physical universe, to create geometric objects from the basic logical rules of cellular automata, and the approximation of randomness, which generates basic geometric patterns over generations of the game cycles approximating the process and evolutions of life defined by the rules of genesis and the culture of the game.&nbsp;&nbsp; We can use this basic game model above to simulate how our modern universe and world may have been created from simple energy patterns to evolve to complex energy patterns that may lead to new universes of being often called paradise or God. <BR>
<BR>
In the game of life, as explained in the book, A New Kind of Science by Stephen Wolfram, <A HREF="www.wolfram-media.com">www.wolfram-media.com</A>, there are several sets of basic cellular automata rules numbered 1 to 4, which generate different primitive geometric worlds made of patterns, series and cycles, of geometric objects such as triangles, pyramids, and more complex geometric objects such as fractals. <BR>
<BR>
The above book also explains how to simulate free will and the conscious mind in the game by using random processes to create the illusion of free will. And even in math theory it can be argued that random processes based on seeds and rules of random series generation may not really exist in our universe.&nbsp;&nbsp; The above book also explains how the unconscious mind is often very predictable, and more robotic than the conscious mind and free will which is more random.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
In nature the basic structures of the universe and life, may be modeled by automata sets that use the basic rules of Quantum mechanics and physics to generate simple and complex energy patterns, which may then generate forms of geometric objects with properties such as the basic elements and compounds of our material universe. <BR>
If we use these above modern physical models of nature, we may then assume that simple life forms may generate their physical forms from basic geometric objects, patterns, and cycles described by mathematical rules and models such as fractals which most plants use to create plant forms.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
As simple life forms such as cells and plants evolve over time they may then generate into more complex physical and geometrical structures of life such as animal forms and instincts in animal forms.&nbsp; Then later the animal forms may also evolve not only physically into more complex animal forms such as the modern human body, but also into more complex social structures and conscious energy structures and patterns.&nbsp; Each class of animal forms and complex animal forms in nature follows a different set of automata rules and historical evolutionary rules that created their physical form, culture, and consciousness, so that each class of complex animal forms which may make up the various different advanced cultures and societies on Earth presently, may lead to very different complex social patterns and conscious patterns, which could lead to new universes of being, that are so different from our present universe, that a new universe may be made or a doorway to a new universe may be made, by the conscious energy patterns of the cultures that encourage these new complex societies and even environments.&nbsp; In some cases a new universe may be created on another planet in our present universe or in another magnetic dimension in our universe, but also a completely new universe separate from our universe may also be created to create a multiverse. <BR>
<BR>
It possible then for cultures on Earth presently, to focus their social structures and conscious structures over many ages of evolution, to create a new universe and a doorway to a new universe, which may then in a sense create a paradisal realm or universe of being, for the culture, which may have new energy patterns and rules or a new aether sometimes called God, that may create and ensure the paradisiacal universe, defined by the historical evolutions of the consciousness and physical forms of the culture.&nbsp;&nbsp; If one looks at the different cultures on Earth, and the goals and properties of each culture, some cultures define very idealistic universes which believe in semi-eternal and eternal paradisiacal realms of being, with an aether called God who is just and loving eternally at all times for all life forms in perfect harmony, while other cultures such as communistic cultures define very primitive, violent and materialistic universes with an aether called nature and no God, which seems to model our present universe and Earth more accurately presently.&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
It is possible for the cultures on Earth, who believe in a new consciousness, and universe of being called paradise or God, to actually create this new universe by means of conscious evolutions of the history of their thoughts to create a doorway or pathway by means of natural ascension or physical space travel to another planet, dimensions or multiverse realm which resembles this new universe of being.&nbsp; This means that cultures on Earth that believe in various different images of God, divine beings, or paradisiacal worlds,&nbsp; may actually create these new worlds over time, and then migrate their cultures to these&nbsp; new world or universes of being.&nbsp; It is also possible to use computers to model the process of nature, physical bodies, consciousness and society of a given culture over many stages or ages of evolutions, and create a holographic model of that cultures projected future, and this computer model could be used to create a holographic teleportation doorway to a new ideal universe for the culture modeled in the computer.&nbsp; Teleportation doorways to new universes of being may be made naturally through the natural consciousness and physical bodies or by means of artificial computer models as well which may approximate them.&nbsp; The computer models may be slightly off, and just a few degrees of difference in a computer model may teleport life forms and cultures an ideal universe also just few degrees different from the natural model and natural teleportation doorway. <BR>
<BR>
So that if God or a paradisiacal universe of being does not presently exist in our universe of being, it is possible for God or paradisiacal universe to be created in conception on Earth or in our Universe, which may then lead to a new universe in the future which may in fact have an energy aether that is similar to God or a paradisiacal aether that guarantees the ideal, peaceful happy, and eternal goals of the cultures of consciousness and physical forms that created the new universe and aether energy patterns. <BR>
<BR>
One could also ask were the basic geometrical forms that create the logic of the basic rules that generate such forms came from.&nbsp; There must be a spiritual energy force, which guides nature and the physical forms of nature to create basic geometrical objects which create basic life forms such as plants and animal forms, otherwise nature in our universe would never go beyond the basic chaotic and random processes of nature and energy.&nbsp;&nbsp; And each class of animal form in nature which leads to complex animal forms and cultures by means of an evolutionary process must follow an energy force, from the beginning or genesis of the idea of the future life form and ideal culture and society to the final end creation of such an ideal paradisiacal world, promised land or universe for the culture.&nbsp; And in this sense, the end goals of the cultures create the spiritual force that guides the patterns of energy and form the original genesis of the culture to its end paths or ideal universe of being. <BR>
<BR>
God or a divine universe of being may then be defined as energy patterns from the genesis to the completion of the creation of the ideal divine paradisiacal universes for any culture on Earth.&nbsp; This means that since many of our ideal notions of God and paradisiacal universes may not presently exist on Earth or perhaps in our Universe yet, they may exist in the future energy states of our universe, or in another universe that our cultures may migrate to.&nbsp; It can be stated that if God does not exist yet in our universe, God may exist in the future of our universe or another universe which we may migrate or evolve to eventually.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Respectfully,<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Baron Von Volsung, www.rhfweb.com\baron<BR>
Thomas Clark<BR>
tom rhfweb.com<BR>
<A HREF="www.rhfweb.com\personal">www.rhfweb.com\personal</A><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
] <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_d6.1e45b82b.2ae2aad6_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 19 06:04:35 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA21009;
	Sat, 19 Oct 2002 06:03:50 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 06:03:50 -0700
Message-ID: <002b01c2776f$1f283880$7cfea8c0 newmicronpc>
From: "jonfli" <jonfli cox.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <3DB0D6AD.BEF85706 ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: What's New for Oct 18, 2002]
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 07:57:46 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000
Resent-Message-ID: <"WSAb83.0.785.sWLiz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48162
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 


----- Original Message -----
From: "Akira Kawasaki"

[snip]

> 2. PATENTLY ABSURD: THERE ARE A LOT OF SCREWY PATENTS OUT THERE.
> The standards have been too lax, and the Patent Office knows it.
> Patents are reexamined in extreme cases, such as hydrinos (WN 6
> Sep 02) and the motionless electromagnetic generator (WN 23 Aug
> 02), but it's rare.  However, a provision in the Patent and
> Trademark Office Authorization Act making it clear that it's
> never too late to reexamine a patent if substantial new questions
> of patentability are raised, should help (WN 6 Sep 02).

[snip]

As an active researcher in the MEG and other devices claiming similar
technology, I found it most interesting when Robert Park initially wrote of
the alleged PTO reexamination of the MEG patent in WN 23 Aug 02. I did a
search of the Patent Weeklies published prior to this announcement, and was
unable to find any action by the PTO in this matter. I emailed Mr. Park and
asked for confirmation on his announcement regarding this matter and never
received a reply. Therefore,  I must conclude that the PTO has not, to the
best of my knowledge, issued any formal reexamination of the MEG patent!

Jon

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 19 06:58:56 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA06030;
	Sat, 19 Oct 2002 06:58:02 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 06:58:02 -0700
Message-ID: <3DB164F0.340170F9 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 16:58:08 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Reply-To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
CC: Tim Ventura <tventura6 attbi.com>,
        Eugene Podkletnov <epodkletnov hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Podkletnov anti-grav in Slate
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021018135106.03f3a440 mail.DIRECTVInternet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"XqyRh1.0.8U1.gJMiz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48163
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dear Jed and all,

Podkletnov does not advertising his work (except a "mistake" at 1995). It is easy to dismiss it after 7 years. Podkletnov's work does not take attention of scientific communities, no significant papers so far is published investigation the phenomenon or on conditions leading to phenomenon. This is important.

Interest to Podkletnov work comes mainly from industrial or military sectors so far but not from scientific communities. I understand that Podkletnov is not cooperative on replication on his experiment by other parties, but one should not accuse a scientist for his policy on use his discovery on non scientific purposes. "non scientific" Term used here is correct IMO, because NASA for example did not released their findings on recent moon eclipse anomaly, and there would be more examples where NASA not satisfy scientific requirements. Either Boeing is working routinely on classified projects and obviously can not disclose their scientific findings. They are not scientific institutions.

On the other hand papers released by Podkletnov and Modanese appears having sufficient information and details for scientific investigation of the effect if not, for total replication of his experiments. So I think Podkletnov satisfy completely scientific criteria and his scientific responsibility.

In this circumstance it is hard to understand why people express their negative opinions on Podkletnov work even without an occasion. 


Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> Good summary. See:
> 
> http://slate.msn.com/default.aspx?id=2072733
> 
> - JR

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 19 13:42:07 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA24791;
	Sat, 19 Oct 2002 13:40:40 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 13:40:40 -0700
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 17:40:41 -0700
Subject: Response to Analog Concerning Kooistra's "Aether Theory" Column
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <B9D7496D.4AA2%editor infinite-energy.com>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id NAA24725
Resent-Message-ID: <"-AdCb3.0.536.7DSiz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48164
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

All:

In response to a column by Mr. Jeffery Kooistra in "Analog Science Fiction
and Fact" magazine (Dec. 2002), "How Not to Do Aether Theory," two letters ‹
one from Dr. Eugene Mallove and one from Dr. Paulo and Alexandra Correa ‹
have been sent to ASFF Magazine's Editor, Dr. Stanley Schmidt. They are
accompanied with an appropriate cover letter.

All three letters are now posted at:

    http://www.aetherometry.com/kooistra_response.html

Sincerely,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine

   www.infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 19 14:58:17 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA17873;
	Sat, 19 Oct 2002 14:57:35 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 14:57:35 -0700
Message-ID: <000e01c277ba$74037040$ba415aa6 metrogr.org>
From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <B9D7496D.4AA2%editor infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Response to Analog Concerning Kooistra's "Aether Theory" Column
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 17:56:58 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
Resent-Message-ID: <"1dPmZ1.0.BN4.FLTiz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48165
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Excellent!  This is going to be fun.

For those of you who haven't found it yet, the column in question is
currently available online at

http://www.analogsf.com/0212/altview.html

This column was actually written and submitted before the nasty dust-up that
here occurred last June over the Reich-Correa work.  Fortunately, nothing
that came up in that "discussion" altered any of my conclusions.  Indeed,
given what we all found out during that discussion here on vortex, I would
have been much less kind in my column if I'd written it after those
exchanges.  I also would have put more emphasis on other sorts of artifacts
that could lead to false positives.  Perhaps I'll have the chance to address
those matters when I reply to Dr. Mallove and Dr. Correa in print,
presupposing their letter(s) are chosen to appear in the magazine.

Jeffery D. Kooistra
Science writer
Alternate View columnist for Analog Science Fiction and Fact


>Subject: Response to Analog Concerning Kooistra's "Aether Theory" Column


> All:
>
> In response to a column by Mr. Jeffery Kooistra in "Analog Science Fiction
> and Fact" magazine (Dec. 2002), "How Not to Do Aether Theory," two letters
<
> one from Dr. Eugene Mallove and one from Dr. Paulo and Alexandra Correa <
> have been sent to ASFF Magazine's Editor, Dr. Stanley Schmidt. They are
> accompanied with an appropriate cover letter.
>
> All three letters are now posted at:
>
>     http://www.aetherometry.com/kooistra_response.html
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
> Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
>
>    www.infinite-energy.com
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 20 06:14:31 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA29425;
	Sun, 20 Oct 2002 06:13:43 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 06:13:43 -0700
Message-ID: <002401c27831$f040bba0$4601bf3f computer>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <GESREBSPAR aol.com>, "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger@suite224.net>,
        <crquin rogers.com>, <herman@antioch-college.edu>,
        <jlsparber earthlink.net>, <jonesb9@pacbell.net>, <knagel@gis.net>,
        <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Constant Charge and Gravity-Antigravity
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 07:12:15 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"MUjb23.0.hB7.7mgiz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48166
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

The particle model keeps suggesting that the fundamental unit of charge +/- q =  +/-
1.602e-19 Coulombs is constant because it is the product of capacitance (C) =
eo*wavelength and potential (V) due to the electromagnetic energy contained in the
particle i.e., q = CV.
This is similar to the velocity (v)*radius (r) = a constant in a vortex where the
constant goes to infinity as the radius goes to zero.

By the same token, the energy (E) contained in the inductance (L) = uo*wavelength in a
particle  = 1/2 LI^2 when the particle is treated as an LC "Tank-Circuit" suggests
that energy/charge is shuttled back and forth between L and C.

IOW, the charge (q)  "stored" in L = Current ( I ) times time (t) i.e.., q = I * t.

All this tends to suggest that charge that Might interact with the gravity field could
be synthesized by mechanically varying the spacing between the plates of a capacitor
with an a.c. voltage applied out of phase with the mechanical displacement of the
plates. ??

Along these lines, one is putting work into the system which gets around Antigravity
being a free lunch.

Fred


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 20 16:50:00 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA15550;
	Sun, 20 Oct 2002 16:49:02 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 16:49:02 -0700
X-Originating-IP: [64.24.65.19]
From: "Patrick Dowland" <patrick_dowland hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Response to Analog Concerning Kooistra's "Aether Theory" Column
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 19:48:26 -0400
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F11KOzAD1LWAMDzvYMw00009305 hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Oct 2002 23:48:30.0733 (UTC) FILETIME=[319773D0:01C27893]
Resent-Message-ID: <"hcHqu3.0.to3.k3qiz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48167
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Kooistra wrote:

>Perhaps I'll have the chance to address
>those matters when I reply to Dr. Mallove and Dr. Correa in print,
>presupposing their letter(s) are chosen to appear in the magazine

What's wrong with right here and now?  You know, strike iron while hot.
Grab chance by the tail.  We are all turned into ears.



Patrick

_________________________________________________________________
Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. 
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 20 18:20:21 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA13272;
	Sun, 20 Oct 2002 18:19:30 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 18:19:30 -0700
Message-ID: <3DB3562B.D7BB65A1 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 04:19:39 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Reply-To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Constant Charge and Gravity-Antigravity
References: <002401c27831$f040bba0$4601bf3f computer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"D6LGd2.0.DF3.XOriz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48168
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frederick,

I understand them but not completely I think. 

Do you mean just C is constant because E of electromagnetic energy of particle is constant. Or do you describe a mechanism for electromagnetic energy of particle should have fixed value and... C is manifestation of E inside of particle, therefore both of them constant.

...and the equation allowing keeping electromagnetic energy inside of particle is different from Maxwell equations and the difference is attributed to gravity? On other words, gravity is the effect of electromagnetic resonance inside a particle, which is not covered by Maxwell eqs.?

If so the everything could explained by this scheme.

1) In order a current be flow in a loop a charge is required. This charge is equal
the I * t, where t is the time for the current complete one loop.

2) The mechanism of electromagnetic energy to keeping in a particle cause the gravity. 

  - How electromagnetic energy kept in a particle is explained.
  - Cause of gravity is explained.
  - Nonlinear effect causing constant charge is explained.
  - If particle is formed by the electromagnetic energy itself, why elementary particles have constant mass  and other constant electromagnetic factors are explained.


3) Simulating similar electromagnetic condition of a particle may produce gravity in macroscopic scale.


Maybe you mean different things please explain.

BTW, maybe varicap diode could be used instead of mechanically varied capacitor and on frequencies far more higher than mechanically allowed.



Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> The particle model keeps suggesting that the fundamental unit of charge +/- q =  +/-
> 1.602e-19 Coulombs is constant because it is the product of capacitance (C) =
> eo*wavelength and potential (V) due to the electromagnetic energy contained in the
> particle i.e., q = CV.
> This is similar to the velocity (v)*radius (r) = a constant in a vortex where the
> constant goes to infinity as the radius goes to zero.
> 
> By the same token, the energy (E) contained in the inductance (L) = uo*wavelength in a
> particle  = 1/2 LI^2 when the particle is treated as an LC "Tank-Circuit" suggests
> that energy/charge is shuttled back and forth between L and C.
> 
> IOW, the charge (q)  "stored" in L = Current ( I ) times time (t) i.e.., q = I * t.
> 
> All this tends to suggest that charge that Might interact with the gravity field could
> be synthesized by mechanically varying the spacing between the plates of a capacitor
> with an a.c. voltage applied out of phase with the mechanical displacement of the
> plates. ??
> 
> Along these lines, one is putting work into the system which gets around Antigravity
> being a free lunch.
> 
> Fred

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 20 19:08:05 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA31199;
	Sun, 20 Oct 2002 19:06:58 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 19:06:58 -0700
Message-ID: <000601c278a6$772c6e60$e9465aa6 metrogr.org>
From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <F11KOzAD1LWAMDzvYMw00009305 hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Response to Analog Concerning Kooistra's "Aether Theory" Column
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 22:06:24 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
Resent-Message-ID: <"a2lpM1.0.Od7.25siz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48169
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Patrick,

> Kooistra wrote:
>
> >Perhaps I'll have the chance to address
> >those matters when I reply to Dr. Mallove and Dr. Correa in print,
> >presupposing their letter(s) are chosen to appear in the magazine
>
> What's wrong with right here and now?  You know, strike iron while hot.
> Grab chance by the tail.  We are all turned into ears.

As I noted in the post you are replying to, the article was written prior to
the discussion that took place here on vortex last June.  All of the issues
were thrashed through then.  To do so again would be BORRRRRRRRING.

I have now read the letters written by Gene and Paulo and they are simply
more of the same.  That having been said, I would be happy to have the
letters appear in Analog without any rejoinder from me--they speak for
themselves.  Unfortunately, the letters run longer than my column and the
letters section of Analog combined, so having either or both letters appear
is problematic (but that is Stan Schmidt's call, not mine).  However, if
Gene would send to Analog the original note he sent here, which specifies
the URL at which their replies can be found, that note would very likely see
print.  Indeed, I can even add a few words at the end of my next column
(which won't see print until next June, I'm afraid) specifying the URL
myself.

Kooistra




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 20 19:14:01 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA02589;
	Sun, 20 Oct 2002 19:12:47 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 19:12:47 -0700
Message-ID: <3DB362AB.335159FA verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 05:12:59 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Reply-To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Constant Charge and Gravity-Antigravity
References: <002401c27831$f040bba0$4601bf3f computer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"LBB1g1.0.Ne.VAsiz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48170
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Frederick Sparber wrote:
> 
> 
> IOW, the charge (q)  "stored" in L = Current ( I ) times time (t) i.e.., q = I * t.

Naturally, current should have also two types: Current producing negative charges - normal current, and the anti-current which produce positive charge.

Now, e-e+ production and annihilation mechanism can be visualized. Current and anti-current getting closer and bang. Current loops are destroyed and charges. 

If e-e+ <--> gamma photon exchange is a pure electrical/electromagnetic process, it can be said that electrons are just an electromagnetic form.

If current is fundamental not the charge, may tunneling and superconductivity be explained better. Superconductivity is just allowing macroscopic current forming. Electrons are not circled at all, but the current part of charged particles contribute the super current.

Of course this is not necessary.

> 
> 
> Fred

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 21 14:55:55 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA27037;
	Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:53:54 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 14:53:54 -0700
X-Sent: 21 Oct 2002 21:53:46 GMT
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021021173502.00af68a0 mail.DIRECTVInternet.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell mail.DIRECTVInternet.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 17:53:26 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Response to Analog Concerning Kooistra's "Aether Theory"
  Column
In-Reply-To: <F11KOzAD1LWAMDzvYMw00009305 hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"7qoiS2.0.Ac6.nT7jz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48171
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Patrick Dowland wrote:

>What's wrong with right here and now?  You know, strike iron while hot. 
>Grab chance by the tail.  We are all turned into ears.

Are you a speech writer for the President by any chance?

I thought the Coreas addressed the RF issue pretty well in their letter, 
although I would trade 100 pages of their speculation and number crunching 
for one RF meter reading. Still, RF seems unlikely to be a significant 
source of heat as far as I can tell. But they did not address any of the 
technical issue I raised here. I still think the effect probably has a 
mundane cause. I still think the experiment is sloppy and unconvincing. It 
could easily be made more convincing. I conclude that the Correas are not 
very good at designing experiments.

People can review the archives to see the issues I raised. Here are some 
that still bother me a lot. The motor has not been calibrated. That is to 
say, the ratio of RPMs to heat has not been established. It could vary all 
over the place, given effect of temperature on bearings and so on. Heat 
should be measured with standard calorimetry instead of guessing about 
motor RPMs. It is hard enough to do it right! Also, as I said before, since 
the energy supposedly penetrates the earth, the experiment should be 
conducted underground. At least it should be indoors. Deliberately exposing 
it to sunlight invites massive uncontrolled, unmeasured noise. They did not 
even keep a record of sunlight exposure (with a separate meter). Exposing 
equipment to uncontrolled outdoor conditions makes no sense. It is 
difficult enough doing these things in a climate controlled lab! Noise and 
uncontrolled conditions are the two great enemies of experiments.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 21 16:53:10 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA14946;
	Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:50:51 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:50:51 -0700
X-Originating-IP: [64.24.64.146]
From: "Patrick Dowland" <patrick_dowland hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Response to Analog Concerning Kooistra's "Aether Theory" Column
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:31:54 -0400
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F41EBHm9s8jgHROQumD0000b6a4 hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Oct 2002 22:31:57.0041 (UTC) FILETIME=[A9F36E10:01C27951]
Resent-Message-ID: <"09uXi2.0.Ff3.QB9jz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48172
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Kooistra wrote:

>As I noted in the post you are replying to, the article was written prior 
>to the discussion that took place here on vortex last June.
>All of the issues were thrashed through then.  To do so again would
>be BORRRRRRRRING.

Man, you have a mind like a racing bullet.  First you say it's going
to be fun and you hope for a chance to address all sorts of matters
when you reply, and four hours later you say that to reply would be
boring.  A fellow really has to be on his toes to keep up with you.

>I have now read the letters written by Gene and Paulo and they are simply 
>more of the same.  That having been said, I would be happy to
>have the letters appear in Analog without any rejoinder from me--they
>speak for themselves.

But doesn't this put you in a kind of murky spot?  If what they wrote is
just more of the same, then it's no news to you that this talk about
the temperature difference on top of the ORAC being caused by RF is
complete bunk.  So then what, you wrote your piece just to smear these
guys in the eyes of people who don't know any better, even though you
knew it was bunk?


Patrick


_________________________________________________________________
Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. 
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 21 19:45:25 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA26522;
	Mon, 21 Oct 2002 19:44:10 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 19:44:10 -0700
Message-ID: <001801c27974$d05517c0$b2093941 metrogr.org>
From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <F41EBHm9s8jgHROQumD0000b6a4 hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Response to Analog Concerning Kooistra's "Aether Theory" Column
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 22:43:25 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
Resent-Message-ID: <"mEPPB3.0.JU6.vjBjz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48173
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Patrick

> >As I noted in the post you are replying to, the article was written prior
> >to the discussion that took place here on vortex last June.
> >All of the issues were thrashed through then.  To do so again would
> >be BORRRRRRRRING.
>
> Man, you have a mind like a racing bullet.  First you say it's going
> to be fun and you hope for a chance to address all sorts of matters
> when you reply, and four hours later you say that to reply would be
> boring.  A fellow really has to be on his toes to keep up with you.

Four hours?  I didn't read the letters until the next day.  Now, see if you
can keep up:
I replied to Gene's note which said that letters had been written.  I guess
I assumed the letters would be short enough to see print.  They probably
aren't.

> >I have now read the letters written by Gene and Paulo and they are simply
> >more of the same.  That having been said, I would be happy to
> >have the letters appear in Analog without any rejoinder from me--they
> >speak for themselves.
>
> But doesn't this put you in a kind of murky spot?  If what they wrote is
> just more of the same, then it's no news to you that this talk about
> the temperature difference on top of the ORAC being caused by RF is
> complete bunk.

Since you seem remarkably nuance challenged, let me spell this out, again.
A source of error is the background EM field.  Whether or not it is a
significant contributor to the "effect" is what is supposed to be ruled out
by the experimenter.  The Correas insist that nothing else except their
explanation can account for the heat.  I pointed out one potential source of
error, and explained that mechanism.  (There are many other potential
sources of error.)  Therefore, some percentage of the temperature difference
is most certainly caused by background EM, so it is not bunk.

Also, I said I would be happy to have the letters appear in Analog without a
rejoinder from me because 1) Gene's letter makes him sound like he's afraid
of me, so I didn't want to frighten him any more, worrying about what I
might say this time, and 2) the letters are self-discrediting (and
self-parodying, but that's just a bonus).

> So then what, you wrote your piece just to smear these guys in the eyes of
people who don't know any better...?

1)  I do not smear people.
2) If I were inclined to smear people, I would not waste time on people who
are largely unknown.

Kooistra


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 22 14:12:09 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA03633;
	Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:09:00 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:09:00 -0700
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <113.196dc7ce.2ae7171c aol.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:03:24 EDT
Subject: I got the Book
To: treigh uplink.net, physics@tularosa.net,
        david.jonsson interactiveinstitute.se (David Jonsson),
        EFOUCHE satx.rr.com (E.F.), frolov@mail.dux.ru (Alexander V. Frolov),
        JRG2223 aol.com, Crazysuez@aol.com, GeorgeHM@aol.com, pgluck@dntcj.ro,
        georgegt juno.com, mrb@ap.net, gordon@spawar.navy.mil,
        haisch calphysics.org, halfox@uswest.net, HaraldReissHD@aol.com,
        jgherb floodcity.net, hheffner@mtaonline.net, smhorten@yahoo.com,
        Jbarronjr aol.com, jboito@floodcity.net,
        JedRothwell infinite-energy.com, hujoyce@homesteadunlimited.com,
        jseese reliantenergy.com, editor@infinite-energy.com, mgoldes@msn.com,
        mkaczey charter.net, richard@hellen-uk.freeserve.co.uk,
        ron.evans baesystems.com,
        JedRothwell infinite-energy.com (Jed Rothwell), Scottychubb@cs.com,
        gam+ pitt.edu, sdodson@EdisonMission.Com, rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au,
        fstenger suite224.net, storms2@ix.netcom.com (Edmund Storms),
        mica world.std.com, tfrank@EdisonMission.Com, tkepple@yahoo.com,
        Puthoff aol.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com, talwar@iup.edu, jayneg@iup.edu,
        tpc iup.edu, cfrank@EdisonMission.Com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634
Resent-Message-ID: <"MzERc3.0.Nu.ivRjz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48174
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

The title is "Nikola Tesla Journey to Mars"  by Sean Casteel

ISBN  1892062313

Global Communications Co. 2002

www.conspiracyjournal.com

Several pages of the book cover my work, with pictures.
Sean got to the root of the matter.  He put out what I had to say. I thank 
him.
I hope it is widely distributed.

I not sure if the people who can make things happen will be reading this.
I hope so.  We are changing things.  I thank Sean for helping with the 
process.

Frank Znidarsic

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 22 14:43:38 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA23200;
	Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:42:05 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 14:42:05 -0700
Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: I got the Book
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:57:29 -0400
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMCENKDFAA.knagel gis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
In-Reply-To: <113.196dc7ce.2ae7171c aol.com>
Importance: Normal
X-Rcpt-To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Resent-Message-ID: <"gixbd.0.Og5.jOSjz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48175
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Frank.

What aspect of your work is covered? And am I to assume
that you agree with the main hypothesis put forward
in this book, as described on the website?

***********************************************************
"Contacted by this secret fraternal order, Nikola Tesla
furthered  their cause, coming up with his own improved
method of interplanetary travel, soon to be stolen and
used by Adolf Hitler and the New World Order."

DID THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN "UNKNOWN TESLA BASED TECHNOLOGY
ALLOW NAZI'S TO ESTABLISH COLONIES ON THE MOON IN THE 1940'S?

WERE THE AIRSHIP SIGHTINGS IN THE MIDDLE 19th CENTURY THE RESULT
OF ALIEN CONTACTS TO A SECRET SOCIETY OF SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS?

DID THIS SECRET SOCIETY ATTEMPT A SECRET EXPEDITION TO THE PLANET MARS IN
1903?
************************************************************

Sounds like a good x-files episode...

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com [mailto:FZNIDARSIC@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 5:03 PM
To: treigh uplink.net; physics@tularosa.net; David Jonsson; E.F.;
Alexander V. Frolov; JRG2223 aol.com; Crazysuez@aol.com;
GeorgeHM aol.com; pgluck@dntcj.ro; georgegt@juno.com; mrb@ap.net;
gordon spawar.navy.mil; haisch@calphysics.org; halfox@uswest.net;
HaraldReissHD aol.com; jgherb@floodcity.net; hheffner@mtaonline.net;
smhorten yahoo.com; Jbarronjr@aol.com; jboito@floodcity.net;
JedRothwell infinite-energy.com; hujoyce@homesteadunlimited.com;
jseese reliantenergy.com; editor@infinite-energy.com; mgoldes@msn.com;
mkaczey charter.net; richard@hellen-uk.freeserve.co.uk;
ron.evans baesystems.com; Jed Rothwell; Scottychubb@cs.com;
gam+ pitt.edu; sdodson@EdisonMission.Com; rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au;
fstenger suite224.net; Edmund Storms; mica@world.std.com;
tfrank EdisonMission.Com; tkepple@yahoo.com; Puthoff@aol.com;
vortex-l eskimo.com; talwar@iup.edu; jayneg@iup.edu; tpc@iup.edu;
cfrank EdisonMission.Com
Subject: I got the Book


The title is "Nikola Tesla Journey to Mars"  by Sean Casteel

ISBN  1892062313

Global Communications Co. 2002

www.conspiracyjournal.com

Several pages of the book cover my work, with pictures.
Sean got to the root of the matter.  He put out what I had to say. I thank
him.
I hope it is widely distributed.

I not sure if the people who can make things happen will be reading this.
I hope so.  We are changing things.  I thank Sean for helping with the
process.

Frank Znidarsic


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 22 17:50:09 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA05078;
	Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:48:32 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 17:48:32 -0700
X-Originating-IP: [64.24.64.55]
From: "Patrick Dowland" <patrick_dowland hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Response to Analog Concerning Kooistra's "Aether Theory" Column
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 20:47:57 -0400
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F65z2SiruzmwxW5UFOi0000e124 hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Oct 2002 00:47:57.0558 (UTC) FILETIME=[D4694160:01C27A2D]
Resent-Message-ID: <"GuYvD2.0.4F1.V7Vjz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48176
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Kooistra wrote:

>>Man, you have a mind like a racing bullet.  First you say it's going
>>to be fun and you hope for a chance to address all sorts of matters
>>when you reply, and four hours later you say that to reply would be
>>boring.  A fellow really has to be on his toes to keep up with you.

>Four hours?  I didn't read the letters until the next day.

My mistake, mate, make that 28.  OK, so it's not like a racing bullet;
more like a racing mule-cart.

>Since you seem remarkably nuance challenged, let me spell this out, again. 
>A source of error is the background EM field.  Whether or not it is a 
>significant contributor to the "effect" is what is supposed to be ruled out 
>by the experimenter.  The Correas insist that nothing else except their 
>explanation can account for the heat.  I pointed out one potential source 
>of error, and explained that mechanism.  (There are many other potential 
>sources of error.)  Therefore, some percentage of the temperature 
>difference is most certainly caused by background EM, so it is not bunk.

I'll bet 100 bucks that you have no idea what the Correas
explanation is for the source of that heat.  I bet you cannot say what,
according to them, causes the heat, what their arguments are, what they
rule out or don't rule out, and why.  Hey, do any of you other fellows
on Vortex want to make bets, one way or the other?   Can Kooistra
do it or can't he?

>Also, I said I would be happy to have the letters appear in Analog without 
>a rejoinder from me because 1) Gene's letter makes him sound like he's 
>afraid of me, so I didn't want to frighten him any more, worrying about 
>what I might say this time, and 2) the letters are self-discrediting (and 
>self-parodying, but that's just a bonus).

The problem is that your saying so don't make it so.  The way I see it,
what these letters discredited was not themselves, but you.  It
doesn't sound like even Rothwell agrees with your estimation.  My wife
when she read your piece thought you were a mental case.  What does
Dorothy think?  Her name figures on your mail, but do you make sure she
agrees before you post?

>1)  I do not smear people.
>2) If I were inclined to smear people, I would not waste time on people who 
>are largely unknown.

Oh, to me it seems exactly the opposite.  I don't think you'd dare
attack someone who is well known without first making damn sure that
you read and understood what they said; otherwise you'd risk looking
like a total idiot.  But with people who are "largely unknown" you
probably reckon you can just sling around derision without going through
any trouble.  If you attacked Feynman based on not being able to
understand what he wrote, you'd be looked upon as an incompetent moron.
But it seems when you do the same with the Correas you think it's safe.


Cheers,

Patrick

_________________________________________________________________
Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free!  Try MSN. 
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 22 18:01:49 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA14230;
	Tue, 22 Oct 2002 18:00:30 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 18:00:30 -0700
X-Originating-IP: [64.24.64.55]
From: "Patrick Dowland" <patrick_dowland hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Response to Analog Concerning Kooistra's "Aether Theory" Column
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 20:59:55 -0400
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F109nHM3SOlbpH71yEX0000e199 hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Oct 2002 00:59:55.0348 (UTC) FILETIME=[803F5140:01C27A2F]
Resent-Message-ID: <"RzHjW2.0.EU3.iIVjz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48177
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Rothwell wrote:

>Are you a speech writer for the President by any chance?

No, I didn't accept the job, I don't like his delivery.  If Al Pacino
was president, that would be another matter.

>I thought the Coreas addressed the RF issue pretty well in their letter, 
>although I would trade 100 pages of their speculation and number crunching 
>for one RF meter reading.

I know this is with you sort of like a Rothwell theme tune, but
what does it really mean?  If you have such distrust of speculation
and number crunching, how come you trust meters, beyond maybe the
simplest ones like a ruler?  Can any halfway advanced meter be built
without being based on speculation and number crunching?  And then
let's say that you got your RF meter reading -- which, it seems to me,
if you're so eager to have, you could just perform yourself.  What would
that tell you about the heat?  Wouldn't you then have to go and do
precisely speculation and number crunching to know how much heat this
RF level could generate when interacting with the ORAC, and compare that
to the heat that's observed?

>Still, RF seems unlikely to be a significant source of heat as far as I can 
>tell. But they did not address any of the technical issue I raised here.

Well, maybe you're raising them on the wrong forum, no?  Have you
considered writing about them in Analog?  Kooistra could have you
as a guest on his column.

>I still think the experiment is sloppy and unconvincing. It could easily be 
>made more convincing. I conclude that the Correas are not very good at 
>designing experiments.

You are talking here about the experiment with the suspended Faraday
cage?  Because when you start listing the issues, you refer to motors
and undergrounds and outdoor conditions, none of which have anything
to do with that experiment.

>People can review the archives to see the issues I raised. Here are some 
>that still bother me a lot. The motor has not been calibrated. That is to 
>say, the ratio of RPMs to heat has not been established. It could vary all 
>over the place, given effect of temperature on bearings and so on. Heat 
>should be measured with standard calorimetry instead of guessing about 
>motor RPMs.

I gather you've now switched to another experiment, the one where they run
a Striling motor from an ORAC.  I know this is old hat, but I never
understood your point about calibration and calorimetry.  The way I
understand it, the point of that experiment (as opposed to the one with the
suspended Faraday cage) was simply that you could maximize the
temperature difference between the top of the ORAC and the surrounding
environment enough to run a Striling motor off of it for hours on end
and at a repectable clip.  So what here calls for the calibration you talk
about, or the calorimetry?

>Also, as I said before, since the energy supposedly penetrates the earth, 
>the experiment should be conducted underground.

Why?  Me, I don't think the purpose of that Striling experiment (unless
you have now switched to yet another one) had anything to do with proving
that something penetrates the earth.  You say the Correas are not good at
designing experiments, but boy would I hate to see how you'd design yours!
Doesn't an experiment have to be designed with a purpose in mind?  With
what purpose in mind are your suggestions designed?

>At least it should be indoors. Deliberately exposing it to sunlight invites 
>massive uncontrolled, unmeasured noise. They did not even keep a record of 
>sunlight exposure (with a separate meter). Exposing equipment to 
>uncontrolled outdoor conditions makes no sense. It is difficult enough 
>doing these things in a climate controlled lab! Noise and uncontrolled 
>conditions are the two great enemies of experiments.

These are noble thoughts, man, but when you say "noise", one needs to know
what the "information" is relative to which this "noise" is a noise -- i.e.
what it is that you are setting out to measure to begin with.  What is
noise to be filtered out in one experiment is precisely the information
you want to study in another.  No?  So in the Striling experiment, it sounds
like you think that the sunlight constituted noise.  Can you say, then,
what "information" this experiment was designed to study?


Patrick

_________________________________________________________________
Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! 
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 22 19:19:54 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA23592;
	Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:18:12 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:18:12 -0700
Message-ID: <001701c27a3a$62932ee0$4140d03f metrogr.org>
From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <F65z2SiruzmwxW5UFOi0000e124 hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Response to Analog Concerning Kooistra's "Aether Theory" Column
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 22:17:47 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
Resent-Message-ID: <"dONVB.0.Tm5.aRWjz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48178
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Patrick,

Nope.  Sorry.  Bored.

Kooistra

----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Dowland <patrick_dowland hotmail.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: Response to Analog Concerning Kooistra's "Aether Theory" Column


> Kooistra wrote:
>
> >>Man, you have a mind like a racing bullet.  First you say it's going
> >>to be fun and you hope for a chance to address all sorts of matters
> >>when you reply, and four hours later you say that to reply would be
> >>boring.  A fellow really has to be on his toes to keep up with you.
>
> >Four hours?  I didn't read the letters until the next day.
>
> My mistake, mate, make that 28.  OK, so it's not like a racing bullet;
> more like a racing mule-cart.
>
> >Since you seem remarkably nuance challenged, let me spell this out,
again.
> >A source of error is the background EM field.  Whether or not it is a
> >significant contributor to the "effect" is what is supposed to be ruled
out
> >by the experimenter.  The Correas insist that nothing else except their
> >explanation can account for the heat.  I pointed out one potential source
> >of error, and explained that mechanism.  (There are many other potential
> >sources of error.)  Therefore, some percentage of the temperature
> >difference is most certainly caused by background EM, so it is not bunk.
>
> I'll bet 100 bucks that you have no idea what the Correas
> explanation is for the source of that heat.  I bet you cannot say what,
> according to them, causes the heat, what their arguments are, what they
> rule out or don't rule out, and why.  Hey, do any of you other fellows
> on Vortex want to make bets, one way or the other?   Can Kooistra
> do it or can't he?
>
> >Also, I said I would be happy to have the letters appear in Analog
without
> >a rejoinder from me because 1) Gene's letter makes him sound like he's
> >afraid of me, so I didn't want to frighten him any more, worrying about
> >what I might say this time, and 2) the letters are self-discrediting (and
> >self-parodying, but that's just a bonus).
>
> The problem is that your saying so don't make it so.  The way I see it,
> what these letters discredited was not themselves, but you.  It
> doesn't sound like even Rothwell agrees with your estimation.  My wife
> when she read your piece thought you were a mental case.  What does
> Dorothy think?  Her name figures on your mail, but do you make sure she
> agrees before you post?
>
> >1)  I do not smear people.
> >2) If I were inclined to smear people, I would not waste time on people
who
> >are largely unknown.
>
> Oh, to me it seems exactly the opposite.  I don't think you'd dare
> attack someone who is well known without first making damn sure that
> you read and understood what they said; otherwise you'd risk looking
> like a total idiot.  But with people who are "largely unknown" you
> probably reckon you can just sling around derision without going through
> any trouble.  If you attacked Feynman based on not being able to
> understand what he wrote, you'd be looked upon as an incompetent moron.
> But it seems when you do the same with the Correas you think it's safe.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Patrick
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN.
> http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 22 21:22:44 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA15225;
	Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:21:44 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 21:21:44 -0700
X-Originating-IP: [64.24.64.197]
From: "Patrick Dowland" <patrick_dowland hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Response to Analog Concerning Kooistra's "Aether Theory" Column
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:21:11 -0400
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F52zPbsXn9DXgz32SvU0000e6fe hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Oct 2002 04:21:12.0117 (UTC) FILETIME=[9E900650:01C27A4B]
Resent-Message-ID: <"SABcF1.0.pj3.NFYjz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48179
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>Nope.  Sorry.  Bored.
>
>Kooistra

What a guy, this Kooistra.  Doesn't even have the grit to lie in the
bed he himself has made.  An "aether theorist" that cries "bored" when
push comes to shove and he's called upon to fight about aether theory.

Cheers,

Patrick

_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online 
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 23 14:36:25 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id OAA01870;
	Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:32:59 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 14:32:59 -0700
X-Sent: 23 Oct 2002 21:32:47 GMT
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021023163247.02c7de00 mail.DIRECTVInternet.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell mail.DIRECTVInternet.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 17:22:05 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Response to Analog Concerning Kooistra's "Aether Theory"
  Column
In-Reply-To: <F109nHM3SOlbpH71yEX0000e199 hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"-zktX.0.4T.BMnjz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48180
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Patrick Dowland wrote:

>>I thought the Coreas addressed the RF issue pretty well in their letter, 
>>although I would trade 100 pages of their speculation and number 
>>crunching for one RF meter reading.
>
>I know this is with you sort of like a Rothwell theme tune, but
>what does it really mean?

It means experiments are always superior to speculation. Measuring 
something directly is better than making assumptions and suppositions and 
crunching numbers.


>   If you have such distrust of speculation
>and number crunching, how come you trust meters, beyond maybe the
>simplest ones like a ruler?

I trust them because the meters have been proven to work in countless other 
experiments, and other contexts. There is nothing controversial or suspect 
about an RF meter, and no sensible person would question its reliability. 
(Assuming it has been tested and calibrated.) Correa's results, on the 
other hand, are controversial.


>Can any halfway advanced meter be built without being based on speculation 
>and number crunching?

No, but a rudimentary meter would be fine, and the advanced meters have 
already been built and proven to work in other tests. You have to start 
with what is known to work, and use that as a benchmark to measure a 
controversial or unknown quantity. The pathological skeptics who deny CF 
are forever demanding proof that conventional calorimetry, autoradiographs 
and mass spectrometers work. They publish crackpot papers to "prove" that 
techniques established a hundred years have secret flaws that magically 
escaped the attention of a million engineers and scientists. If we must 
argue about whether RF meters work we will never resolve any issue or make 
any progress.


>And then let's say that you got your RF meter reading -- which, it seems 
>to me, if you're so eager to have, you could just perform yourself.

I could not perform it because I was not present at the experiment. 
Furthermore, the reading must be done during every run, and the results 
recorded. (Recorded on paper if the reading is steady, or logged on 
computer if it varies significantly.)


>What would that tell you about the heat?

It would irrefutably support or defeat Kooistra's hypothesis.


>Wouldn't you then have to go and do precisely speculation and number 
>crunching to know how much heat this RF level could generate when 
>interacting with the ORAC, and compare that to the heat that's observed?

That would depend on the extent of the RF. If it was clearly orders of 
magnitude too small, Kooistra's hypothesis would be wrong, case closed. If 
it seemed close, you would have to test RF more carefully. You do not do 
this by speculating or crunching numbers. You bring in a large, controlled 
source of RF and measure its effect on the ORAC.


>You are talking here about the experiment with the suspended Faraday
>cage?

See the archives of this discussion group.


>I gather you've now switched to another experiment, the one where they run 
>a Striling motor from an ORAC.  I know this is old hat, but I never
>understood your point about calibration and calorimetry.

It is very simple. If you wish to prove that the RPMs of the motor 
correlate to some level of heat intercepted or generated by ORAC, you must 
first calibrate the motor. You must expose it to carefully controlled, 
known levels of heat. You verify that the RPMs rise in a linear and 
predictable ratio to the heat, and that a given heat level produces the 
same RPMs on different occasions. I doubt that happens. In any case, this 
is a peculiar, indirect & difficult way to measure heat, and there are many 
good conventional methods, so why invent this one in the first place?


>The way I understand it, the point of that experiment (as opposed to the 
>one with the suspended Faraday cage) was simply that you could maximize 
>the temperature difference between the top of the ORAC and the surrounding 
>environment enough to run a Striling motor off of it for hours on end and 
>at a respectable clip.

What is a "respectable clip"? What does it signify? How do we know we have 
achieved respectability? How much energy is required to do this, and would 
this energy level be anomalous? While we are on the subject, what does the 
ORAC have to do with it? Correa reports no blank experiments, as far as I 
can tell, so for all anyone knows a feather pillow or a block of wood would 
work just as well. I have observed pronounced variations in ambient 
temperature while testing various devices. Any table or suspended object 
will cause them. All rooms on earth have thermal gradients. Whether they 
are strong enough to drive one of these motors or not I cannot say, because 
I have no idea how much energy it takes to drive the motor. Correa has no 
idea how much energy it takes to drive the motor either, because he has not 
calibrated.


>So what here calls for the calibration you talk about, or the calorimetry?

All experiments always call for calibration. There can be no meaningful 
result without it. Calorimetry is the conventional way to measure heat, and 
one should always use conventional methods, unless circumstances prevent it.


>>Also, as I said before, since the energy supposedly penetrates the earth, 
>>the experiment should be conducted underground.
>
>Why?

To test the hypothesis that the energy comes through the earth, obviously. 
And to filter out all other stray sources of energy.


>You say the Correas are not good at designing experiments, but boy would I 
>hate to see how you'd design  yours!

I have already explained how I would design mine. I would use conventional 
calorimetry. I would measure RF and other sources of noise. I would 
calibrate, and do a blank experiment. Why would you "hate" these steps? 
What do you find objectionable about them? If you cannot list an objection, 
I suppose you have no objection. Correa did not address my comments, so I 
suppose he cannot think of any reason why he should not calibrate or do a 
blank run. He just doesn't want to. He prefers to bloviate and crunch 
numbers instead.


>>Noise and uncontrolled conditions are the two great enemies of experiments.
>
>These are noble thoughts, man, but when you say "noise", one needs to know 
>what the "information" is relative to which this "noise" is a noise -- 
>i.e. what it is that you are setting out to measure to begin with.

It is very simple. Correa is setting out to measure a hypothetical, 
mysterious form of energy that supposedly originates in the sun and 
penetrates the earth. Therefore, the direct, conventional heat of the sun 
is noise -- by definition -- and it should be filtered out as much as 
possible. RF is also noise. Anything other than this mysterious orgone 
energy is noise. Instead of reducing these other inputs, Correa 
deliberately introduced them in the motor test, exposing the machine to 
varying, unknown, unmeasured levels of direct sunlight. He stored up heat 
in the box materials, which have unknown, unmeasured thermal heat capacity. 
If you deliberately set out to do the experiment wrong, you could not do 
any worse.


>What is noise to be filtered out in one experiment is precisely the 
>information you want to study in another.

What is your point? Sunlight has nothing to do with orgone energy. 
Obviously it should be filtered out in these experiments.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 23 16:27:20 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA18353;
	Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:25:56 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:25:56 -0700
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 19:26:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, Schnurer <herman@antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Gallium and Gadolinium sources sought... moderate purity
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021023192318.20130J-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Resent-Message-ID: <"tq1fs3.0.hU4.40pjz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48181
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


	Dear Vo.,

	PLEASE

	I am seeking to find sources for Gallium and Gadolinium 
	I do NOT need very highly purified material.  I am hoping to
secure  moderate purity material at low cost.  I expect to need more than
one vendor to finally get what is needed.

					Thanks,

							JH



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 23 19:28:35 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA29278;
	Wed, 23 Oct 2002 19:27:29 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 19:27:29 -0700
Message-ID: <001101c27b04$d17cd520$b4803841 metrogr.org>
From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021023163247.02c7de00 mail.DIRECTVInternet.com>
Subject: Re: Response to Analog Concerning Kooistra's "Aether Theory" Column
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 22:26:05 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
Resent-Message-ID: <"90pVW.0.C97.Ggrjz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48182
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jed,

A sound and thorough reply.  I'd like to add a few notes just to clear up
some continuing confusion, particularly for those who have not read my
actual column. JK

----- Original Message -----

> Patrick Dowland wrote:
>
> >>I thought the Coreas addressed the RF issue pretty well in their letter,
> >>although I would trade 100 pages of their speculation and number
> >>crunching for one RF meter reading.
> >
> >I know this is with you sort of like a Rothwell theme tune, but
> >what does it really mean?
>
> It means experiments are always superior to speculation. Measuring
> something directly is better than making assumptions and suppositions and
> crunching numbers.
>
>
> >   If you have such distrust of speculation
> >and number crunching, how come you trust meters, beyond maybe the
> >simplest ones like a ruler?
>
> I trust them because the meters have been proven to work in countless
other
> experiments, and other contexts. There is nothing controversial or suspect
> about an RF meter, and no sensible person would question its reliability.
> (Assuming it has been tested and calibrated.) Correa's results, on the
> other hand, are controversial.
>
>
> >Can any halfway advanced meter be built without being based on
speculation
> >and number crunching?
>
> No, but a rudimentary meter would be fine, and the advanced meters have
> already been built and proven to work in other tests. You have to start
> with what is known to work, and use that as a benchmark to measure a
> controversial or unknown quantity. The pathological skeptics who deny CF
> are forever demanding proof that conventional calorimetry, autoradiographs
> and mass spectrometers work. They publish crackpot papers to "prove" that
> techniques established a hundred years have secret flaws that magically
> escaped the attention of a million engineers and scientists. If we must
> argue about whether RF meters work we will never resolve any issue or make
> any progress.
>
>
> >And then let's say that you got your RF meter reading -- which, it seems
> >to me, if you're so eager to have, you could just perform yourself.
>
> I could not perform it because I was not present at the experiment.
> Furthermore, the reading must be done during every run, and the results
> recorded. (Recorded on paper if the reading is steady, or logged on
> computer if it varies significantly.)
>
>
> >What would that tell you about the heat?
>
> It would irrefutably support or defeat Kooistra's hypothesis.

[JK adds.]  What I actually said in my column was: "Even if we grant for the
sake of argument that convection currents play no part in sustaining the
temperature difference, there are other mundane sources of heat available."
I then went on to discuss one of those mundane sources, and EM heating is a
natural thing to discuss in connection with Faraday cages.  BUT--in real
life I DO NOT grant that "convection currents" have been ruled out at all.
Indeed, given what became clear in the previous discussion, I would guess
that they contribute to more than 95% of the delta T.  So, let us not call
it "Kooistra's hypothesis" -- RF hypothesis should serve.  If my name is to
be used at all, how about the "Rothwell-Kooistra hypothesis," which is that
set of problems that Jed has been suggesting all along.
>
>
> >Wouldn't you then have to go and do precisely speculation and number
> >crunching to know how much heat this RF level could generate when
> >interacting with the ORAC, and compare that to the heat that's observed?
>
> That would depend on the extent of the RF. If it was clearly orders of
> magnitude too small, Kooistra's hypothesis would be wrong, case closed.

[JK adds] EM (or RF if you prefer) is probably two orders of magnitude too
small to account for the whole delta T.  There are lots of other problems to
correct in the experiment before one needs to worry about RF.

> If
> it seemed close, you would have to test RF more carefully. You do not do
> this by speculating or crunching numbers. You bring in a large, controlled
> source of RF and measure its effect on the ORAC.
>
>
> >You are talking here about the experiment with the suspended Faraday
> >cage?
>
> See the archives of this discussion group.
>
>
> >I gather you've now switched to another experiment, the one where they
run
> >a Stirling motor from an ORAC.  I know this is old hat, but I never
> >understood your point about calibration and calorimetry.
>
> It is very simple. If you wish to prove that the RPMs of the motor
> correlate to some level of heat intercepted or generated by ORAC, you must
> first calibrate the motor. You must expose it to carefully controlled,
> known levels of heat. You verify that the RPMs rise in a linear and
> predictable ratio to the heat, and that a given heat level produces the
> same RPMs on different occasions. I doubt that happens. In any case, this
> is a peculiar, indirect & difficult way to measure heat, and there are
many
> good conventional methods, so why invent this one in the first place?

[JK adds] I recently purchased "An Introduction to Low Temperature
Differential Stirling Engines" by James R. Senft.  It tells you how to build
a Stirling Engine that will run off a temp differential of 1 degree F (or
about .5 C).  This engine will run for half a day if you put it over a bowl
of ice water (it runs backwards if the top is warmer than the bottom).  It
is extremely inefficient at converting heat into shaft power because almost
all of the input goes into just keeping the engine running.  The key is
this--as long as it has a delta T of 1 degree F or so to "run on", it will
run indefinitely.  As I recall from the earlier discussions, 1 degree is
within the range of normal temperature variation "just because."  So the
engine running atop the ORAC simply doesn't tell us much without a sound
analysis of exactly what the heat flow around the engine, form all sources,
is.
>
>
> >The way I understand it, the point of that experiment (as opposed to the
> >one with the suspended Faraday cage) was simply that you could maximize
> >the temperature difference between the top of the ORAC and the
surrounding
> >environment enough to run a Stirling motor off of it for hours on end and
> >at a respectable clip.
>
> What is a "respectable clip"? What does it signify? How do we know we have
> achieved respectability? How much energy is required to do this, and would
> this energy level be anomalous? While we are on the subject, what does the
> ORAC have to do with it? Correa reports no blank experiments, as far as I
> can tell, so for all anyone knows a feather pillow or a block of wood
would
> work just as well. I have observed pronounced variations in ambient
> temperature while testing various devices. Any table or suspended object
> will cause them. All rooms on earth have thermal gradients. Whether they
> are strong enough to drive one of these motors or not I cannot say,
because
> I have no idea how much energy it takes to drive the motor. Correa has no
> idea how much energy it takes to drive the motor either, because he has
not
> calibrated.
>
>
> >So what here calls for the calibration you talk about, or the
calorimetry?
>
> All experiments always call for calibration. There can be no meaningful
> result without it. Calorimetry is the conventional way to measure heat,
and
> one should always use conventional methods, unless circumstances prevent
it.
>
>
> >>Also, as I said before, since the energy supposedly penetrates the
earth,
> >>the experiment should be conducted underground.
> >
> >Why?
>
> To test the hypothesis that the energy comes through the earth, obviously.
> And to filter out all other stray sources of energy.
>
>
> >You say the Correas are not good at designing experiments, but boy would
I
> >hate to see how you'd design  yours!
>
> I have already explained how I would design mine. I would use conventional
> calorimetry. I would measure RF and other sources of noise. I would
> calibrate, and do a blank experiment. Why would you "hate" these steps?
> What do you find objectionable about them? If you cannot list an
objection,
> I suppose you have no objection. Correa did not address my comments, so I
> suppose he cannot think of any reason why he should not calibrate or do a
> blank run. He just doesn't want to. He prefers to bloviate and crunch
> numbers instead.
>
>
> >>Noise and uncontrolled conditions are the two great enemies of
experiments.
> >
> >These are noble thoughts, man, but when you say "noise", one needs to
know
> >what the "information" is relative to which this "noise" is a noise --
> >i.e. what it is that you are setting out to measure to begin with.
>
> It is very simple. Correa is setting out to measure a hypothetical,
> mysterious form of energy that supposedly originates in the sun and
> penetrates the earth. Therefore, the direct, conventional heat of the sun
> is noise -- by definition -- and it should be filtered out as much as
> possible. RF is also noise. Anything other than this mysterious orgone
> energy is noise. Instead of reducing these other inputs, Correa
> deliberately introduced them in the motor test, exposing the machine to
> varying, unknown, unmeasured levels of direct sunlight. He stored up heat
> in the box materials, which have unknown, unmeasured thermal heat
capacity.
> If you deliberately set out to do the experiment wrong, you could not do
> any worse.
>
>
> >What is noise to be filtered out in one experiment is precisely the
> >information you want to study in another.
>
> What is your point? Sunlight has nothing to do with orgone energy.
> Obviously it should be filtered out in these experiments.
>
> - Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 24 10:04:01 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA31008;
	Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:01:11 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 10:01:11 -0700
X-Sent: 24 Oct 2002 17:00:55 GMT
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021024122416.02c1ebb0 mail.DIRECTVInternet.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell mail.DIRECTVInternet.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 12:59:44 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Response to Analog Concerning Kooistra's "Aether Theory"
  Column
In-Reply-To: <001101c27b04$d17cd520$b4803841 metrogr.org>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20021023163247.02c7de00 mail.DIRECTVInternet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"YM8xl3.0.Ha7.LT2kz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48183
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Jeff Kooistra wrote:

>[JK adds] I recently purchased "An Introduction to Low Temperature
>Differential Stirling Engines" by James R. Senft.  It tells you how to 
>build a Stirling Engine that will run off a temp differential of 1 degree 
>F (or about .5 C).  This engine will run for half a day if you put it over 
>a bowl of ice water (it runs backwards if the top is warmer than the bottom).

Temperature differences of 1 deg C around objects the size of an ORAC are 
not uncommon in rooms, even quiescent rooms at night.

I have been meaning to bring up this point. This is elementary, but heat 
engine performance (RPMs) are proportional to the temperature difference 
between the reservoir and the sink, NOT the energy being produced in the 
reservoir at a given moment (assuming any is being produced). When the sink 
ambient temperature happens to be warming up rapidly, because of a change 
in the weather let us say, the OREC might be producing lots of anomalous 
heat internally but the stirling engine will not rotate. When the 
surroundings are cooling down, the engine might rotate furiously -- at a 
"respectable clip" as Dowland put it -- even though the OREC is producing 
no energy.

The total number of revolutions at the end of the day might indicate the 
total stored and released heat plus any heat generated internally. However 
this would be a very crude estimate at best, because so many extraneous 
factors affect performance, such as the friction coefficient which must 
change with temperature and speed, and the weather: wind, temperature, 
light, and so on. Trying to sort out these factors would be a nightmare. 
Correa did discuss these factors in his paper. He tried to show by 
calculation and extrapolation that stored heat cannot account for the 
apparent energy release. But his estimates are so approximate, and 
contingent on such a long chain of assumptions and unmeasured variables 
they are meaningless in my opinion. You must *measure* every major 
variable. The heat capacity of the OREC wood and metal, for example, must 
be established with a calorimeter, because it plays a significant role in 
this test. Fleischmann, Storms and Mizuno have pointed out that the thermal 
mass of the cells and other calorimeter components in some experiments is 
so large it affects performance and must be taken into account. CF cells 
are much smaller than an OREC, and I think the thermal mass of wood is 
higher than metal or glass, since most wood has a lot of water in it (20% 
by mass).

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 24 20:42:58 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id UAA26010;
	Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:42:04 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:42:04 -0700
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <16.2749d61f.2aea1766 aol.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:41:26 EDT
Subject: (no subject)
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_16.2749d61f.2aea1766_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634
Resent-Message-ID: <"Uv00X1.0.FM6.BsBkz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48184
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


--part1_16.2749d61f.2aea1766_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


I'm not sure I should have agreed to a a 20 page interview in this 
publication.  It may have hurt my reputation.  It was fun. Most of the sutuff 
in the book is not so true.  I was published word for word.  What next?



<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1892062313/qid%3D1035516693/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/002-1024654-8087221#product-details">Amazon.com: Books: Nikola Tesla Journey To Mars: Are We Already There?</A> 



Frank Znidarsic

--part1_16.2749d61f.2aea1766_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2><BR>
I'm not sure I should have agreed to a a 20 page interview in this publication.&nbsp; It may have hurt my reputation.&nbsp; It was fun. Most of the sutuff in the book is not so true.&nbsp; I was published word for word.&nbsp; What next?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1892062313/qid%3D1035516693/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/002-1024654-8087221#product-details">Amazon.com: Books: Nikola Tesla Journey To Mars: Are We Already There?</A> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_16.2749d61f.2aea1766_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Oct 24 21:35:18 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA19799;
	Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:33:41 -0700
Resent-Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 21:33:41 -0700
X-Originating-IP: [64.24.64.18]
From: "Patrick Dowland" <patrick_dowland hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Response to Analog Concerning Kooistra's "Aether Theory" Column
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 00:33:09 -0400
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F53dRLoU8YKm6RVTppS00013562 hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Oct 2002 04:33:09.0244 (UTC) FILETIME=[9ED46BC0:01C27BDF]
Resent-Message-ID: <"hc2DN1.0.Hr4.bcCkz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48185
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Rothwell wrote:

>>>I thought the Coreas addressed the RF issue pretty well in their letter, 
>>>although I would trade 100 pages of their speculation and number 
>>>crunching for one RF meter reading.

>>I know this is with you sort of like a Rothwell theme tune, but what does 
>>it really mean?

>It means experiments are always superior to speculation. Measuring 
>something directly is better than making assumptions and suppositions and 
>crunching numbers.

I, of course, have no beef with the notion that making RF measurements
with a good meter is a good thing if one wants to know RF levels.
So don't take me wrong.  My beef is with you serving up these
generalities as if they were truths of great weight, when in fact
when one inspects them they seem dubious and more like baloons filled
with hot air.  Look at the way you put it: you call the "superior" thing
that you put on the one side of your equation, "experiments" and "direct
measurement", and the "inferior" thing that you put on the other,
"speculation", "assumption", "supposition".  But what is completely
missing from your equation is a third thing: knowledge, which, to
my way of thinking, is what science is ultimately all about.
Knowledge is, of course, constantly up for revision and
reevaluation, but it is not "speculation" or "assumption".  It's what
has to guide all assumptions and speculations if they are to be worth
anything, and all experiment too.  It's like you yourself said:

>>If you have such distrust of speculation and number crunching, how come 
>>you trust meters, beyond maybe the simplest ones like a ruler?

>I trust them because the meters have been proven to work in countless other 
>experiments, and other contexts. There is nothing controversial or suspect 
>about an RF meter, and no sensible person would question its reliability. 
>(Assuming it has been tested and calibrated.)

In other words, you regard whatever assumptions and number-crunching
that went into the building of those meters, and the principles of
their operation, as having passed some kind of test that makes them part
of a store of knowledge that one can build upon.  Well, I don't see any
reason why the published measurement of RF levels in normal urban
environments should not also be treated as being in that store of
knowledge, which is exactly why Kooistra's "hypothesis" is a red herring.
He, like everybody else, could have checked those published levels,
and computed that they are much too low to be the source of the
temperature difference on top of ORACs.  Instead, he puts on airs and
pretends that the Correas are sloppy because they didn't provide
some essential piece of measurement.

You also said:

>>And then let's say that you got your RF meter reading [...]
>>What would that tell you about the heat? Wouldn't you then have to go and 
>>do precisely speculation and number crunching to know how much heat this 
>>RF level could generate when interacting with the ORAC, and compare that 
>>to the heat that's observed?

>That would depend on the extent of the RF. If it was clearly orders of 
>magnitude too small, Kooistra's hypothesis would be wrong, case closed.

But when you say "orders of magnitude too small", you mean "too small
to generate the kind of heat that is being observed".  But my point to
which you were responding was precisely that in order to assess whether
the level was or was not too small, you'd have to do number crunching
to translate RF levels into levels of generated heat.  Without doing
this number crunching step, you couldn't conclude beans from your RF
meter reading.  And the formulas you'd use to do this crunching, which
may or may not be the same as the Correas used in their argument, are
not "speculation", they are part of knowledge, of science.  If there was
nothing in science other than either "experiment" or "speculation", it
wouldn't be useful, or worthwhile, or even possible.

Then you continued:

>If it seemed close, you would have to test RF more carefully. You do not do 
>this by speculating or crunching numbers. You bring in a large, controlled 
>source of RF and measure its effect on the ORAC.

This is exactly what the Correas did in their monograph AS2-13.

You spoke very truely when you said:

>You have to start with what is known to work, and use that as a benchmark 
>to measure a controversial or unknown quantity. The pathological skeptics 
>who deny CF are forever demanding proof that conventional calorimetry, 
>autoradiographs and mass spectrometers work. They publish crackpot papers 
>to "prove" that techniques established a hundred years have secret flaws 
>that magically escaped the attention of a million engineers and scientists. 
>If we must argue about whether RF meters work we will never resolve any 
>issue or make any progress.

And similarly, to make progress, we may also have to rely on such
things as published data of RF levels in "normal" environments,
formulas for calculating the amount of heat that can result given
an RF level, and a million other things that together make up what
we call "science".  No?  Even though, in the course of this very
progress, some of this science may in fact finally prove to not
be as ironclad as we first took it to be, and in need of revision.

But you, after speaking so astutely, proceed rather less so:

>>And then let's say that you got your RF meter reading -- which, it seems 
>>to me, if you're so eager to have, you could just perform yourself.

>I could not perform it because I was not present at the experiment. 
>Furthermore, the reading must be done during every run, and the results 
>recorded. (Recorded on paper if the reading is steady, or logged on 
>computer if it varies significantly.)

This makes sense when one is studying something whose levels and
effects one is not certain about.  But the point is, RF levels in
normal environments are not in that bracket.  And they don't start
being in that bracket just because Kooistra chooses to proclaim them
as such in disregard of what is commonly known.  So no, contrary to
what you say there is no need to do such readings during every run,
and yes, contrary to what you say you could do it yourself: if you
happen to feel that there is a need for them -- for example if you have
reason to distrust the published RF levels -- you could perform your
own experiment and test them.  You could go to a large basement room
in a city house, make it dark and unplug all the electric appliances
-- i.e. have the same conditions as the Correas had for their
experiment --  and then measure the local RF flux in the middle of
the room, taking note of the proximity to power lines, or radio stations,
etc., and compare that to the published results.  Wouldn't that be more
advisable for someone like you, or Kooistra, or Spaandonk, who pose as
wanting to encourage others to learn to keep their minds open to learning
new things, and at the same time to carry on with a scientific inquiry
into the nature of these new things?  Why is the onus on the Correas to
buy an RF meter and do confirmation studies for published RF levels, and
no onus on you-all to figure out whether this or that pet "hypothesis"
of yours, whether it's RF or IR or some other EM, has even a minimal
chance of being right?

And talking about those pet "hypotheses" concerning the suspended
Faraday cage experiment, you all talk about the experiment as if its
purpose was to verify the existence of "orgone".  Where do you get that
from?  From what I can see, all that the Correas aimed to do
was nothing of the sort, but simply to reproduce the experiment that
Reich showed to Einstein, but with new and better controls, so as to
control against the convection hypothesis.  If you want to see
experiments that go further along the path and try to control for other
factors, and help draw actual conclusions about the causes of that
temperature difference, you're reading the wrong paper, you're just
putting up and shooting down phantoms.  You're supposedly against
"speculation" and all for "experiment", but you don't mind to engage
in spinning completely baseless, subjective fantasies and
"critiques" concerning an existing public body of work, instead
of actually sitting down and reading it.  In fact, if you
read their work, you would see that their claim is that the temperature
difference is only indirectly caused by ambipolar radiation (including
"orgone").  Have you checked out where they give the spectrum for
ambipolar radiation?  If you did, you'd stop slapping around the word
"orgone" as if it meant some vague mystical entity that doesn't have
any physical characteristics.  But whatever conclusions about "orgone"
arereached by the Correas, they sure don't spring, like a
Jack-in-the-box, simply from that Reich-Einstein business.

>>I gather you've now switched to another experiment, the one where they run 
>>a Striling motor from an ORAC.  I know this is old hat, but I never 
>>understood your point about calibration and calorimetry.

>It is very simple. If you wish to prove that the RPMs of the motor 
>correlate to some level of heat intercepted or generated by ORAC, you must 
>first calibrate the motor.

Didn't the Correas do just that?  They calibrated the motor against
levels of delta T.

>You must expose it to carefully controlled, known levels of heat. You 
>verify that the RPMs rise in a linear and predictable ratio to the heat, 
>and that a given heat level produces the same RPMs on different occasions. 
>I doubt that happens.

If the mount is the same and the motor the same, why shouldn't the same
quantity of heat yield the same rpm?

>In any case, this is a peculiar, indirect & difficult way to measure heat, 
>and there are many good conventional methods, so why invent this one in the 
>first place?

Sorry, I don't get your drift here.  The Striling experiment was
not a means to measure heat in a new way.  It was an experiment for
running a Striling motor off of the heat difference between the
environment and the the top of an ORAC, as I already said before:

>>The way I understand it, the point of that experiment (as opposed to the 
>>one with the suspended Faraday cage) was simply that you could maximize 
>>the temperature difference between the top of the ORAC and the surrounding 
>>environment enough to run a Striling motor off of it for hours on end  and 
>>at a respectable clip.

>What is a "respectable clip"? What does it signify? How do we know we have 
>achieved respectability?

Don't get riled up, I thought you read the papers.  I think it
goes up to 140 rpm or more.  That's respectable, no?  But I guess
respectability is in the eyes of the beholder.  If you don't think
the results of these experiments are interesting, then there are many
more pertinent papers you can choose from.  The point of this one was
quite pedestrian, to show that one could run a motor that way.

>How much energy is required to do this, and would this energy level be 
>anomalous?

I am not sure what you mean by "anomalous energy level", but you could
ask that question of the Correas.  Again, to my mind that was not the
point of the experiments they conducted - which was to show that
an ORAC, properly improved, could drive those Strilings both in daytime
and at night.

>While we are on the subject, what does the ORAC have to do with it? Correa 
>reports no blank experiments, as far as I can tell, so for all anyone knows 
>a feather pillow or a block of wood would work just as well.

You must be suffering from that famous attention deficit disorder.
Check figure 4 of the first article and 9 of the second.  You
have a whole bunch of "blank experiments" reported there.

>I have observed pronounced variations in ambient temperature while testing 
>various devices. Any table or suspended object will cause them. All rooms 
>on earth have thermal gradients. Whether they are strong enough to drive 
>one of these motors or not I cannot say, because I have no idea how much 
>energy it takes to drive the motor.

Another red herring, and then I suppose the Correas are in your opinion
expected to scurry around and sweat some more to answer it.
If you think you can run a Striling motor off the thermal gradients in
a room, do the experiment, just like the Correas did their experiment
when  they thought they could drive the motor off of the delta T of an
ORAC.  Or do the number crunching, and answer with your own labor your
question about how much energy it takes.

>Correa has no idea how much energy it takes to drive the motor either, 
>because he has not calibrated.

How do you know he doesn't know?  Have you asked him if he knows?


>>>Also, as I said before, since the energy supposedly penetrates the earth, 
>>>the experiment should be conducted underground.

>>Why?

>To test the hypothesis that the energy comes through the earth, obviously. 
>And to filter out all other stray sources of energy.

You have conveniently left out the part where I said:

>the purpose of that Striling experiment (unless you have now switched to 
>yet another one) had anything to do with proving that something penetrates 
>the earth.

and then you reply as if I never said it.  If you want to test
the  hypothesis "that the energy comes through the earth"
(by the way, where did you get that from?  Can you quote where
the Correas say that?  And which energy are you referring to when
you say "the energy"?), by all means do it, but don't impute this
purpose to the Striling experiment.  Incidentally, wasn't the Correas
suspended Faraday cage experiment underground?  In a basement,
that's what they say.

>>You say the Correas are not good at designing experiments, but boy would I 
>>hate to see how you'd design  yours!

>I have already explained how I would design mine. I would use conventional 
>calorimetry. I would measure RF and other sources of noise. I would 
>calibrate, and do a blank experiment. Why would you "hate" these steps? 
>What do you find objectionable about them? If you cannot list an objection, 
>I suppose you have no objection.

I never said I would hate these steps, or that I would find them
objectionable.  What I find objectionable is that you "design" these
experiments -- i.e. carry on about them as if you knew better --
without any regard to what their purpose was, what precisely they
were designed to test, and what actual knowledge they were meant
to give.   Goodness does not descend upon an experiment just by waving
over it some serious-sounding words like "calorimetry" and "calibration".
The first question is, whether the experiment fits its purpose.  You
don't ask that first question.

>Correa did not address my comments, so I suppose he cannot think of any 
>reason why he should not calibrate or do a blank run. He just doesn't want 
>to. He prefers to bloviate and crunch numbers instead.

What I don't understand is how you get to these allegations.  Why should
Correa address your comments?  Did you write them to him?  I thought
you purposely address them to a channel that he didn't "monitor",
didn't you say so yourself?  So you seem to do an awful lot of supposing.
And why?

>>>Noise and uncontrolled conditions are the two great enemies of 
>>>experiments.

>>These are noble thoughts, man, but when you say "noise", one needs to know 
>>what the "information" is relative to which this "noise" is a noise -- 
>>i.e. what it is that you are setting out to measure to begin with.

>It is very simple. Correa is setting out to measure a hypothetical, 
>mysterious form of energy that supposedly originates in the sun and 
>penetrates the earth.

Could you quote the Correas on this, and show that this statement
of yours is valid?

>Therefore, the direct, conventional heat of the sun is noise -- by 
>definition -- and it should be filtered out as much as possible. RF is also 
>noise. Anything other than this mysterious orgone energy is noise.

That's what you say, not the Correas.   What they say, if I understand
it correctly, is that all the blackbody photons produced in the
atmosphere are the natural result of the interaction of ambipolar
radiation (not all of which is "orgone"!) with the local chemical
constituents.  They are not noise, they are photons.  And they are not
transmitted by an electromagnetic wave, but produced locally.  The
Correas in fact extensively studied ORACs exposed to the sun, and
identified their EM absorption spectra in the IR region.  They show
that the heat evolved cannot be accounted for by the photon energy
absorbed.  Have you read this?  If not, then it seems you're just
shooting off your mouth.

>Instead of reducing these other inputs, Correa deliberately introduced them 
>in the motor test, exposing the machine to varying, unknown, unmeasured 
>levels of direct sunlight.

To you they are "unknown and unmeasured", since you have not
bothered to read the materials you spout about.

>He stored up heat in the box materials, which have unknown, unmeasured 
>thermal heat capacity. If you deliberately set out to do the experiment 
>wrong, you could not do any worse.

What experiment?  The one you are fantasizing out of thin air?

>>What is noise to be filtered out in one experiment is precisely the 
>>information you want to study in another.

>What is your point? Sunlight has nothing to do with orgone energy. 
>Obviously it should be filtered out in these experiments.

On what basis do you claim that sunlight has nothing to do with orgone
energy?   On the contrary, the argument of the Correas is that
sunlight has everything to do with ambipolar radiation, whether orgone
or Dor.  You make these pronouncements, and they are based on absolutely
nothing.  I've seen you trash some people's work regularly on this list
just on a whim, without bothering to understand it, and then some others,
to my mind much shoddier, like Marett, you elevate on a pedestal, also
on a whim and without understanding, I guess by the principle that an
enemy of your enemy is your friend.  Anyone can see that this is not an
objective assessment of anything, just gratuitous assaults and spouting
dressed up in a fancy three-piece suit.  I joined this list hoping
to find people really interested in these new ideas that the Correas are
proposing and eager to discuss them, so I could expand my understaning.
But all I've found is a bunch of guys full of self-satisfied ignorance,
putting on airs and slapping each other on the back.


Cheers,

Patrick


_________________________________________________________________
Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! 
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 25 05:45:56 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA20264;
	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 05:44:55 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 05:44:55 -0700
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:44:24 -0700
Subject: Peter Hagelstein to Give Cold Fusion Talk at MIT
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <B9DEC2F8.4BF9%editor infinite-energy.com>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"fkhL91.0.Yy4.7pJkz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48186
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

ALL:

Prof. Peter Hagelstein of the Research Laboratory for Electronics (RLE) in
the MIT Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science will be giving
a talk on cold fusion. The text of the announcement may be found below.

Sincerely,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
Director, New Energy Research Laboratory
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816
   editor infinite-energy.com
   www.infinite-energy.com
Ph: 603-228-4516
Fx: 603-224-5975


**********





SPECIAL RLE SEMINAR

Monday, November 4, 2002
Grier Room B, 34-401B

Refreshments at 3:45 PM
Talk at 4:00 PM

Are there New Physical Mechanisms Associated
with the Anomalies in Metal Deuterides?

Professor Peter L. Hagelstein
MIT

Low-level neutron emission from TiD was claimed by Jones in an
electrochemical experiment in March of 1989.  Pons, Fleischmann and Hawkins
claimed an excess heat effect in PdD in electrochemical experiments, also at
the same time. It was shown that the screening between deuterons was
insufficient to account for the effect claimed by Jones. In the case of the
Pons and Fleischmann effect, the associated theoretical problems were far
more severe: To obtain a heat effect of nuclear origin without associated
radiation, some kind of new physics and associated reactions would be
required.  Moreover, whatever new process was to account for the effect, it
had to dominate by many orders of magnitude over the conventional fusion
reaction pathways.  In the absence of replications of either experiment at
respected labs, by mid-1989 both claims were rejected claim by the
scientific community.

Several hundred researchers around the world were uncomfortable with such a
quick dispatch of these claims, and continued to work on the problem over
the years.  After hundreds of experiments, nine international conferences,
and several thousand manuscripts, the community that has continued to pursue
the general topic of anomalies in metal deuterides has more or less reached
a consensus that there are a variety of real effects that are deserving of
serious scientific research.  A variety of unexpected effects are presently
claimed, including low-level fusion and heat; observations of helium in
association with excess energy; substantial accumulation of tritium; fast
charged particles that are not from dd-fusion reactions; induced
radioactivity; and transmutations.

I will outline briefly in the talk some of what I consider to be key
experimental results that appear to shed light on the physical mechanisms
that are involved.  I have recently proposed a relatively straightforward
model based on phonon exchange effects in an effort to understand the
anomalies, which I will present in the talk.  The new model appears to allow
for an interpretation of most of the anomalies, and suggests the possibility
of an unambiguous clarification of the physical basis of the effects.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 25 09:41:45 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id JAA30555;
	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:39:47 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:39:47 -0700
Message-Id: <5.1.1.6.2.20021025094145.01d34aa0 mail.dlsi.net>
X-Sender: stevek mail.dlsi.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1.1
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:42:29 -0700
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: stevek <stevek dlsi.net>
Subject: Re: Peter Hagelstein to Give Cold Fusion Talk at MIT
In-Reply-To: <B9DEC2F8.4BF9%editor infinite-energy.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"gSBNa1.0.LT7.JFNkz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48187
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I suppose his colleauges in the Physics department are "steaming" about 
this, eh?


At 09:44 AM 10/25/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>ALL:
>
>Prof. Peter Hagelstein of the Research Laboratory for Electronics (RLE) in
>the MIT Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science will be giving
>a talk on cold fusion. The text of the announcement may be found below.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
>Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
>Director, New Energy Research Laboratory
>PO Box 2816
>Concord, NH 03302-2816
>    editor infinite-energy.com
>    www.infinite-energy.com
>Ph: 603-228-4516
>Fx: 603-224-5975
>
>
>**********
>
>
>
>
>
>SPECIAL RLE SEMINAR
>
>Monday, November 4, 2002
>Grier Room B, 34-401B
>
>Refreshments at 3:45 PM
>Talk at 4:00 PM
>
>Are there New Physical Mechanisms Associated
>with the Anomalies in Metal Deuterides?
>
>Professor Peter L. Hagelstein
>MIT
>
>Low-level neutron emission from TiD was claimed by Jones in an
>electrochemical experiment in March of 1989.  Pons, Fleischmann and Hawkins
>claimed an excess heat effect in PdD in electrochemical experiments, also at
>the same time. It was shown that the screening between deuterons was
>insufficient to account for the effect claimed by Jones. In the case of the
>Pons and Fleischmann effect, the associated theoretical problems were far
>more severe: To obtain a heat effect of nuclear origin without associated
>radiation, some kind of new physics and associated reactions would be
>required.  Moreover, whatever new process was to account for the effect, it
>had to dominate by many orders of magnitude over the conventional fusion
>reaction pathways.  In the absence of replications of either experiment at
>respected labs, by mid-1989 both claims were rejected claim by the
>scientific community.
>
>Several hundred researchers around the world were uncomfortable with such a
>quick dispatch of these claims, and continued to work on the problem over
>the years.  After hundreds of experiments, nine international conferences,
>and several thousand manuscripts, the community that has continued to pursue
>the general topic of anomalies in metal deuterides has more or less reached
>a consensus that there are a variety of real effects that are deserving of
>serious scientific research.  A variety of unexpected effects are presently
>claimed, including low-level fusion and heat; observations of helium in
>association with excess energy; substantial accumulation of tritium; fast
>charged particles that are not from dd-fusion reactions; induced
>radioactivity; and transmutations.
>
>I will outline briefly in the talk some of what I consider to be key
>experimental results that appear to shed light on the physical mechanisms
>that are involved.  I have recently proposed a relatively straightforward
>model based on phonon exchange effects in an effort to understand the
>anomalies, which I will present in the talk.  The new model appears to allow
>for an interpretation of most of the anomalies, and suggests the possibility
>of an unambiguous clarification of the physical basis of the effects.

Thanks,

Steve

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 25 13:01:34 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id MAA30228;
	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:58:43 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:58:43 -0700
Message-ID: <3DB9A1D3.B76A8ADD ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 12:56:03 -0700
From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD472  (Win95; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: [Fwd: What's New for Oct 25, 2002]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"2zckQ3.0._N7.n9Qkz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48188
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Oct 25, 2002
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:38:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 25 Oct 02   Washington, DC

1. SCIENCE AND SECURITY: RESTRAINING GOVERNMENT SECRECY.  Every
government relishes the power to hold secrets.  Good news is made
public; those who leak bad news are punished.  The Presidents of
the National Academies issued a statement last Friday warning
that the Bush Administration has gone too far in attempting to
control scientific information that might aid terrorists.  They
were particularly critical of the resurrection of the category of
"sensitive but unclassified" information, invented in the early
'80s by the Reagan Administration.  Led by the American Physical
Society, which issued a strongly worded statement on Freedom of
Scientific Information in 1983 www.aps.org/statements/83.2.html ,
scientific opposition persuaded the White House to back down in
1995, issuing National Security Decision Directive 189: 
     "No restrictions may be placed on the conduct or
     reporting of federally funded fundamental research 
     that has not received national security classification,
     except as provided in applicable U.S. statutes."
The statement of the Academy presidents called on the federal
government to "affirm and maintain" the principle of NSDD 189.

2. LEAKS: ADMINISTRATION'S TOP PLUMBER VOWS TO STOP THE LEAKS.
President Clinton vetoed legislation that would have made it a
felony to leak classified information that does not involve
espionage(WN 17 Nov 00).  But although he says such leaks have
resulted in only one conviction in 50 years, Attorney General
John Ashcroft insists strict enforcement is what's needed, not
tougher laws.  Alas, conscientious government employees willing
to risk their careers by leaking classified documents, may be the
only check on government excesses carried out behind the screen
of national security.  In March, for example, The Nuclear Posture
Review, a Pentagon report describing a plan to develop a new
class of small nuclear weapons, suddenly showed up on the Web (WN
15 Mar 02).  Thirty years earlier, it was the "Pentagon Papers."

3. PSEUDO SECRETS: WAS THAT REALLY JOHN PODESTA?  So now who's
opposing government secrecy?  Well, it's not exactly on the same
level as the Pentagon Papers, but at a press conference on
Tuesday, the Sci Fi Channel released a report on "Science and the
Failure to Investigate Unidentified Aerial Phenomena."  Among
those calling for the government to give us all the information
on UFOs was John Podesta, Chief of Staff to President Clinton and
now a Washington lobbyist.  Meanwhile, Robert Gentry, "world
renowned nuclear physicist," is suing Cornell, NSF and Los Alamos
over censorship of scientific evidence against the big bang.

4. GLOBAL WARMING: THE CLIMATE OF THE TALKS HAS CHANGED.  The
latest round began this week in New Delhi.  The focus is on ways
to adapt to change, rather than cutting emissions (WN 14 Jun 02).

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Oct 25 15:12:50 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA28668;
	Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:11:03 -0700
Resent-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:11:03 -0700
Message-ID: <3DB9C190.6C1E7C7 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 01:11:28 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Reply-To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Subwoofer Amplifier
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"7in5o2.0.m_6.s5Skz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48189
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hello,

For who interested on ELF experiments  (i.e. Aquino) requiring high power
 there is an Accoustic Research ARs 500 Subwoofer Amp. on ebay ending for 5 hours from now. It is 240V unit suitable in Europe (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1779233532)

It is placed on wrong ebay category so I expect its price will remain low.


Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 26 10:56:13 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id KAA09572;
	Sat, 26 Oct 2002 10:54:01 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 10:54:01 -0700
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:02:40 -0700
From: jonesb9 <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Subject: Important New Paper
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Message-id: <3DBAD8C0.2060206 pacbell.net>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Accept-Language: en-us
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1)
 Gecko/20020508 Netscape6/6.2.3
Resent-Message-ID: <"WVQhm1.0.UL2.uQjkz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48190
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Attention: Next generation of rocket scientists (or Sci-Fi aficionados)
Caveat: Full speculation alert:

Let's say (and hope otherwise) that actual gravity modification of a 
significant amount is several generations removed from present 
consideration.

That is, even if Podkletnov , TT Brown, Cook etc. have discovered 
certain ways to modify gravity, the claimed few percent of weight 
reduction for a 2mm kilo space shuttle isn't really worth getting very 
excited about right now, even if it will allow for the eventual doubling 
of the payload. It is certainly important farther down the road, however.

Space Shuttle stats:
Weight (lb) Gross lift-off . . . . . . . 4.5 million
Orbiter dry weight (with three Space Shuttle Main Engines) . . .181,000
Payload (approx.)..... 25-45,000
Thrust  Solid boosters (2)... 3,300,000 lb of thrust each in a vacuum
Space Shuttle Main Engines (3)... 393,800 lb of thrust each at sea level

So-
Is there anything presently on the horizon that potentially will permit 
the next generation space shuttle (2010) to:
1)Take off horizontally from any airport
2)Reduce the gross take-off weight by several orders of magnitude
3)Use fuel that is, in effect, a waste product of energy production 
(i.e. has a zero effective cost)
4)Allow the elimination of booster rockets and large external LOX tank
5)Allows payloads to be placed in orbit for one per cent or less per 
pound of present costs

Yes. Or should I say,  yes if you believe Dr. Randell Mills recent paper 
(done at the behest of the far-sighted folks over at China Lake).

To discover the answer for yourself. Go to BLP's new paper (and read 
between the lines - with a lot of "suspended disbelief"):
Novel Liquid-Nitrogen-Condensable Molecular Hydrogen Gas
http://www.blacklightpower.com/pdf/DihydrinoCond%20gas%20paper102202.pdf

In the Mills' process, a hydrogen atom in a fractional quantum state is 
called a "hydrino" and a molecule consisting of two hydrogen atoms in 
the same fractional state is called a "dihydrino molecule". A molecule 
or ion that contains both a hydrino and a hydrogen atom is a 
hydrino-hydride. Energy transitions to a hydrino state, or from a 
hydrino state to a lower hydrino state, are not spontaneously radiative, 
and must be catalyzed with elements that contain a "hole" of 27.2 eV.

As it turns out, the hydrino hydride, by definition is self-catalyzing, 
in that it already has the required energy hole as part of the package. 
In the recent paper, Mills suggests that either the dihydrino or the 
hydrino-hydride would make an excellent rocket propellant, and why not?

If you can liquefy a fuel that is in itself the waste product, i.e. ash 
of  previous energy production (hydrino-hydride is just such an ash)and 
use it again because it is self-catalyzing, even though it won't have 
the energy density of the ground state, it will still produce at the 
very least 27.2 eV or about seven times more than H2+O2 combustion, plus 
it weighs about eight times less (on the basis of molecular weight) then 
you could end up with a fuel that surely has at least 50 times more ISP 
than hydrogen + oxygen. (ISP is called specific impulse and is based on 
the exhaust velocity of the ignited fuel - it is called specific impulse 
because it is also the force imparted to the vehicle by unit mass of 
propellant. ISP is a widely used figure of merit for propellant 
formulations). Multiply this 50x increase in ISP to a "scaling factor" 
and now you are beginning to see a paradigm shift in space exploration> 
Would such possibly raise our space capability to "interstellar" !

BTW the reason you can't just use ground state H2 as a hydrino 
propellant is that the gaseous catalysts which are most efficient, for 
instance He or Ar - these appear to be needed in a ration of 20-50 times 
more by mass than the hydrogen itself. Solid catalysts need to be used 
in a sealed plasma chamber. However, for a hydrino-hydride you have the 
potential for self-catalyzed situation using gas-state with only a 
modest EM input - the "combustion chamber" might look like an arc 
welding nozzle.

Just a little "dream candy" for your weekend's amusement.

Jones Beene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Oct 26 17:03:44 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id RAA12989;
	Sat, 26 Oct 2002 17:02:29 -0700
Resent-Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 17:02:29 -0700
From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Peter Hagelstein to Give Cold Fusion Talk at MIT
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 11:01:55 +1100
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <i5bmrusam1mbmc4lohr72brg9rpleeunf8 4ax.com>
References: <B9DEC2F8.4BF9%editor infinite-energy.com>
In-Reply-To: <B9DEC2F8.4BF9%editor infinite-energy.com>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.92/32.572
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mx1.eskimo.com id RAA12960
Resent-Message-ID: <"dc-V-1.0.sA3.Kqokz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48191
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

In reply to  Eugene F. Mallove's message of Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:44:24 -0700:
Hi Eugene,
[snip]
Will you be publishing the text of his talk in a future issue of IE, for those of us unable to attend?
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 27 05:05:52 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA00466;
	Sun, 27 Oct 2002 05:04:35 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 05:04:35 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530500b9e1873f8799 [12.21.208.56]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 05:17:15 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Photons and gravity, a thought experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"q6SME.0.57.ZH-kz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48192
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

I would briefly like to discuss from my amateur point of view some
speculations relating to photon mass and momentum, and then suggest a
thought experiment.

Photons are today not thought to carry mass.  However, it seems there is
good reason to question this view.  Energy and mass are inseparable in
energy exchanges by photon.  The universe may or may not spontaneously
create mass and therefore energy from the vacuum, but it seems reasonable
that in this universe mass and energy must remain in the balance

   E/m = c^2.

That is because photons carry momentum, and momentum corresponds to energy.
By Plank's law, photons carry energy E:

   E = h*nu = h(c/lambda)

and momentum

   p = h/lambda

so photons always carry momentum and energy in the ratio

   E/p = h(c/lambda)/(h/lambda) = c

Assume a photon is created by a nuclear event, where mass (delta m) is
converted to energy at the exchange rate of E = (delta m) c^2, thus there
is a loss of mass:

   (delta m) = E/c^2.

This photon is thought, by conventional theory, to carry no mass, only the
momentum p = E/c.  However, to conserve momentum, a photon absorbed by a
target mass must impart to the target mass an additional kinetic energy
(delta K) corresponding to the change in velocity of the target due to the
momentum change of the impacted mass, and if energy is conserved then
(delta K)=E.  However, by the special theory of relativity, that results in
a corresponding increase in apparent mass of the absorbing body by the
ratio  (delta K)/c^2 = (delta m).  So we have the mass (delta m) back!  The
photon carried mass (delta m) from one body to another.  Therefore *both*
mass and energy are conserved in a photon exchange, as is the ratio E/m =
c^2.

The strange thing is that photons clearly carry mass from one place to
another, i.e. do mass exchange, yet are thought to have no mass.  Further,
it is well known (from lensing effects of stars) that photons are bent by
gravity in an amount exactly equal to the amount a mass carrying body would
be bent. It is said this proves space is warped about gravitational bodies,
in that the supposedly mass-free photon travels the same path as a high
speed mass carrying particle.

It seems far more logical that the photon has mass.  Photons are trapped in
a black hole by gravity.  Strange that a photon traveling directly away
from a black hole, a singularity, supposedly reverses course upon itself,
retracing its path right back to the black hole!  If this is because space
is warped, how is it the electron has a path to retrace at all, and how is
it that velocity c is maintained?

Then there is the issue of quantum gravity - the notion that gravity is
exchanged by gravitons.  If gravity is force exchange by gravitons, then
the notion of warped space (in addition) provides a double apparent force,
thus things are out of kilter.  Is it graviton exchange that pulls the
photon back to the black hole?  If so, then the photon is capable of
graviton exchange, and thus has mass.  If it is not capable of graviton
exchange, how is it that the photons are trapped by gravity, especially
those on a course directly away from a singularity?

It seems reasonable that some of the dark matter of the universe might be
photons. They are only "dark" because they are not hitting our eyes.  The
kinetic pressure of photons should cause the universe to expand more
rapidly than predicted by mass gravitational and momentum considerations
only.

At the birth of the universe all the mass was in a singularity, thus we
were, or that of which we are made was, in a black hole.  How did we get
out of there?  Perhaps we did not, and the size of the universe is merely
an illusion, a distortion brought on in part by the effect of gravity upon
exiting photons.  The red shift itself may in fact be in part due to very
large amounts of dark matter, distributed in a non-uniform manner
throughout the universe, denser in the center.

Well, enough speculation and on with the thought experiment.  Suppose we
are in a space ship near a black hole.  Further suppose that, through very
advanced technology, the space ship is able to skim a laser beam near the
surface of the black hole in just such an orbital that it returns to the
ship.  We obtain thrust by emitting the beam, and further by absorbing it
upon its return.  This thrust is due to photon momentum.  Further, due to
our advanced technology, we can reflect or re-emit the beam, and
continually repel ourselves from the black hole without the use of
significant further energy.

What is strange about all this?   Well, it is the lack of effect upon the
black hole itself.  Since the photons have no mass, there is no
gravitational attraction to the black hole, no mechanism of force on the
black hole itself.  This violates conservation of momentum, and thus
conservation of energy as well.  The photons change direction without a
counter-force, thus violating Newton's laws.

Let us assume for a moment that the photons merely bend about the black
hole due to the warping of space, and that somehow space itself provides a
mechanism for transmitting the counter-force to the black hole.  If this is
the case, then I submit that that force upon the black hole is
indistinguishable from gravity itself, and thus IS gravity.  If the force
between photons and mass precisely follows the gravitational rule, then how
is that force is distinguishable from gravity itself?  Further, the photons
carry and deliver mass.  Is it not reasonable to assume they have mass?

Well, if photons do have mass then there is a seeming paradox that they can
accelerate in zero time to speed c.  However, as the mysteries of quantum
mechanics and messenger particles go, this does not strike me as much of a
paradox. There is no reason that the photon can not still have zero rest
mass, as the mass carried from place to place is incremental to and
embodied in the masses which exchange the photon, not in the photon itself
except during its journey.

Further, it may be questioned as to whether the photon actually has a
journey, since in its reference frame the journey takes zero time.  The
path of its journey is thus laid out fully in advance of or at least at the
moment of departure, and exists for the photon as a singularity in time.
For the photon there is no oscillation, no frequency, no Newtonian effects,
no process, no wavelength, merely an event.  If time dilation is real, then
the effects of gravity and every other form of possible interaction on a
photon's set path must thus be worked out in, exist in, an instant.
Similar truths must exist for the graviton.  These strange qualities it
seems makes them more alike than not alike.

Despite the unfathomable nature of existence, in our limited framework of
understanding, it seems more reasonable and consistent to assume that the
photon has mass.  However, assuming the contrary is also exciting, in that
it opens the door to the possibilities of free energy and reaction mass
free propulsion, since conservation of energy and momentum are no longer
inviolable laws.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 27 06:35:44 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA25113;
	Sun, 27 Oct 2002 06:34:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 06:34:48 -0800
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 10:35:02 -0800
Subject: Re: Peter Hagelstein to Give Cold Fusion Talk at MIT
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <B9E171D6.4C93%editor infinite-energy.com>
In-Reply-To: <i5bmrusam1mbmc4lohr72brg9rpleeunf8 4ax.com>
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"yWFvU.0.886.7c_kz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48193
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

On 10/26/02 4:01 PM, "Robin van Spaandonk" <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> In reply to  Eugene F. Mallove's message of Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:44:24 -0700:
> Hi Eugene,
> [snip]
> Will you be publishing the text of his talk in a future issue of IE, for those
> of us unable to attend?
> [snip]
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk


Robin,

We will give his talk full coverage in IE. I'll be taping it.

- Gene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 27 06:55:30 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id GAA00829;
	Sun, 27 Oct 2002 06:54:42 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 06:54:42 -0800
Sender: jack granger.centurytel.net
Message-ID: <3DBBFCA1.4A01EB29 centurytel.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 14:49:43 +0000
From: "Taylor J. Smith" <tjs11 centurytel.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-Caldera (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i486)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Photons and gravity, a thought experiment
References: <v01530500b9e1873f8799 [12.21.208.56]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="xh"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="xh"
Resent-Message-ID: <"DsEnJ2.0.oC.ou_kz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48194
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


Horace Heffner wrote:

I would briefly like to discuss from my amateur point
of view some speculations relating to photon mass and
momentum, and then suggest a thought experiment.

Photons are today not thought to carry mass ...

The strange thing is that photons clearly carry mass
from one place to another, i.e. do mass exchange, yet
are thought to have no mass.  Further, it is well known
(from lensing effects of stars) that photons are bent
by gravity in an amount exactly equal to the amount a
mass carrying body would be bent. It is said this proves
space is warped about gravitational bodies, in that the
supposedly mass-free photon travels the same path as a
high speed mass carrying particle ...

Hi Horace,

Your speculations are excellent.  What do you think
about D. L. Hotson's idea that "the 'photon' ... would be
a wave, carried by the epos, spreading at velocity c in every
direction, but with most of the energy carried by lines of
epos pointing in the vector direction ..." as further described
in the below excerpts?

Jack Smith

Infinite Energy Magazine, Vol. 8, Issue 43, May - June, 2002

page 43 and following pages:

Dirac's Equation and the Sea of Negative Energy, Part 1
By Don L. Hotson 

``... Dirac's complete equation ... has as solutions four
different kinds of electron: electrons and positrons of
positive energy and electrons and positrons of negative
energy ...  Since ... the Dirac field comprises 'everything
that waves,' the equation therefore predicts that the entire
physical universe can be made from just these four kinds
of electron ...

On ... grounds {consistent with the physics of Ernst Mach}
Einstein in 1905 had declared the 'luminiferous ether'...
to be unobserved hence non-existent.  Lorentz's electromagnetic
ether {with length contraction and time dilation} answered
all of the other objections to a carrier of light, including
the results of the Michelson-Morley experiment, so the only
remaining objection was the Machian one ...

The Dirac theory (1934) required every charge to be surrounded
by unlimited numbers of opposite charged ends of electron-positron
pairs (... 'epos') ...

The followers of Feynman and QED insist that everything
behaves as particles, and QED treats them as point particles
... Quantum field theorists insist that everything is wave ...
There is, however, a logical way of resolving these views.
In order to negoitate the 'two slit' experiment ...
when a measurement or interaction happens, the analog
wave is converted to a digital solution with the result
reported to a specific set of coordinates ... a 'mathematical
point.'

... What becomes clear from all this is that the negative
energy sea of ... epos ... must exist in the form of a
... Bose-Einstein Condensate.

... if an electron needs to lose spin ... the polarized
epos that surround it ... can absorb the 'real' (positive)
spin energy that the electron has to get rid of ...
It thus initiates a vector line of epos ... carrying the spin
energy at velocity c.  Therefore the 'photon' ... would be
a wave, carried by the epos, spreading at velocity c in every
direction, but with most of the energy carried by lines of
epos pointing in the vector direction ... an epo carrying a
photon ... 'epho.'

... In the famous 'two-slit' experiment, many of the paths
comprising the epho 'wave' ... go through each slit and
interfere with each other ... At the screen, one of them is
randomly selected ... to deliver all of the wave's angular
momentum to a single electron in the screen.

... Further, it should be noted that since each epho wave
individually travels at c, the velocity of light would be
independent of the velocity of the source ... The transmission
of light would agree with Lorentzian relatively, which meets
all the tests devised for Special Relativity ... including
those that SR fails, such at the Sagnac effect ... and the
Silvertooth effect ...  One of the tragedies of science is
Lorentz's death in 1928, just as Dirac's equation was 
formulated, as Lorentz surely would have recognized the
negative-energy sea as responsible for his electromagnetic
ether.''


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 27 11:23:34 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA28806;
	Sun, 27 Oct 2002 11:22:34 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 11:22:34 -0800
X-Originating-IP: [64.24.64.51]
From: "Patrick Dowland" <patrick_dowland hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Response to Analog Concerning Kooistra's "Aether Theory" Column
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 14:21:57 -0500
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Message-ID: <F47wx7wkUs8ynBWooue000176d8 hotmail.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Oct 2002 19:21:59.0333 (UTC) FILETIME=[1EDDB550:01C27DEE]
Resent-Message-ID: <"JLXyE2.0.027.wp3lz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48195
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Kooistra wrote:

>[JK adds.]  What I actually said in my column was: "Even if we grant for 
>the sake of argument that convection currents play no part in sustaining 
>the temperature difference, there are other mundane sources of heat 
>available." I then went on to discuss one of those mundane sources, and EM 
>heating is a natural thing to discuss in connection with Faraday cages.

Oh man, I am just an eighth of an inch away from actually admiring
this sophistry, the way it avoids having even a shred of a
straightforward, honestly put forth scientific suggestion in it.
Nothing but dodging the obvious, and nobody can be held responsible for
saying anything.  "There are other mundane sources of heat available",
"EM heating is a natural thing to discuss in connection with Faraday
cages".  All such innocent remarks and so obviously true.  How could
anybody ever fault that good Kooistra for stating such harmless truths,
from behind which he feels no shame to label other people's work "sloppy"
without ever expecting to have to stand up and answer for it.  "Too
bored..." he can always say, "All I was doing was discussing some
mundane sources of heat.  Nothing wrong in that.  Just a little bit of
sci-chat among sci-fi buffs."

So let's see if it's possible to stuff the meat back into this empty
sausage casing.  The sausage casing says that there are mundane sources
of heat available.  But I thought the question under discussion was
not what is or is not theoretically available, but what can actually
account, in a real physical way, for the To-T temperature difference.
Wasn't that the question?  What is so irksome in this Kooistra-speak
is that he never comes out straight and puts forth any valid hypothesis
of his own, but instead seems bent on instilling just a little more
aimless doubt, like:

"Worse than that, I searched in vain for any evidence of even the
recognition that such a mundane source of heating [he means RF] is
present. This is pretty sloppy. If the Correas can listen to a radio
station in their lab, then their Faraday cages are also picking up that
signal and turning it into heat."

The way I see it, if the Correas make a point of saying that there were
no lights or electric appliances turned on, or even plugged in, in
their lab, then this obviously is in recognition of the effects that
such mundane sources of heating can have.  And what, besides wanting to
smear, does it mean to say "if the Correas can listen to a radio
station in their lab"?  Obviously, anybody can listen to a radio station
anywhere, the question is not whether they can listen, but what were
the actual conditions in the Correas lab at the time of the experiment,
no?  But without ever having stuffed the casing with any meat,
Kooistra goes and calls his article "How not to do aether theory".  Well,
maybe when the dust settles he'll actually learn how not to do it...

I know it bores poor Kooistra to tears having to read again about these
tediously mundane things he brought up, all in passing and in the spirit
of good cheer.  But I'm still wondering about this "mundane" business
of his.  It seems to me that what makes a source mundane is not that
anybody can show it exists - for example, prove that convection exists
by heating a room and the objects within it, or prove that 'RF heating'
exists by using massive RF sources, or prove that a metal box can be
heated over a stove, and so on.  What makes a source mundane is that,
under properly controlled conditions, it would account for the phenomenon
as a trivial one.  So maybe one needs to restate just what the phenomenon
is, how the whole story story began sixty years back: there's this iron
box - insulated or not - which is a good conductor of heat.  The
question is: why should this metal box, suspended in the middle of a
room, develop a higher temperature above its top plate, if you give it
all the time needed for it to reach thermal equilibrium, and you're not
heating it, or the room it's in?  Why?  That's the question.

Infeld, as I understand it, tried to provide a trivial explanation:
he thought the phenomenon was caused by convective heat partitioning
caused by the table where the box stood separating the convection flow.
It seems to me that the point of the Correas in this particular
experiment described in the Infinite Energy piece was to provide the
control for that objection and to show that if you take away the table,
the phenomenon is still there; they also showed that when the convection
from the underside of the box is blocked with a stand, not a table, so
that there is no major heat partitioning going on in the room, the
difference increases.  So they showed that there was a convective
contribution which, if removed, still left a significant residual.
And as far as I remember, the room was not heated, its walls were
not heated either, and the thermometers were suspended at the same
height.  The question is, how do you explain adequately the phenomenon?
It sure ain't with RF, however "mundane" RF may be.

But Kooistra just refuses to stay in one place long enough to be pinned
down to any scientific honesty or understanding.  It's too boring.  Once
his pet RF explanation got too slippery to touch, he names it after
Rothwell - and just slides back into suggesting convection as the cause,
as if he was oblivious to the fact that the Correas experiment addressed
precisely the question of convection and controlled for it.  The way
this guy's reasoning seems to go is that the experiment must be sloppy,
and if it's not sloppy for one reason then it must be sloppy for some
other reason -- whatever.  Just like with Rothwell: if it's not one
Correa experiment that's sloppy, then it must be some other experiment
that's sloppy, whatever.  Who cares about the details, as long as the
"conclusion" one appends at the end is: the way the Correas do aether
physics is not the way to do aether physics.  Kooistra calls this
sleaziness "real life":

>BUT--in real life I DO NOT grant that "convection currents" have been ruled 
>out at all.  Indeed, given what became clear in the previous discussion, I 
>would guess that they contribute to more than 95% of the delta T.  So, let 
>us not call it "Kooistra's hypothesis" -- RF hypothesis should serve.  If 
>my name is to be used at all, how about the "Rothwell-Kooistra hypothesis," 
>which is that set of problems that Jed has been suggesting all along.


And then more of the same:

>[JK adds] EM (or RF if you prefer) is probably two orders of magnitude too 
>small to account for the whole delta T.  There are lots of other problems 
>to correct in the experiment before one needs to worry about RF.

So now that Dr. Mallove and the Correas called his bluff with a
computation that shows that RF is more than two orders of magnitude too
small to account for the To-T, the computation Kooistra should have felt
obligated to do before writing his insinuations, he hops and skips and
hints at "lots of other problems".  And that's supposed to be "the way
to do aether physics"?

In any case, I noticed Beaty saw fit to slap Kooistra on the back for
his brilliant column, and threw into the stew his own pet hypothesis
that the source of the heat was IR.  If it's not one thing it's another,
and in any case it's EM.  Kooistra now talks as if it made no difference
whether one says EM or RF.  But to me that seems ridiculous - all
conventionally-known radiation is EM: IR is EM, visible light is EM,
and so on.  From what I know, RF radiation is far less energetic than
is, for instance, IR.  For RF to be a significant factor,  the field
would have had to be much, much stronger than the usual background.
So let's take Beaty's pet idea, that it is IR that's responsible.  I
don't think either Beaty or Kooistra could quote a viable physical
process that permitted this.  Because it seems to me they're forgetting
a simple fact of life: thermometers respond to sensible heat, and
sensible heat is EM energy - that's why you can heat thermometers with
visible light, IR or RF.  So, thermometers already give you a thermal
measure of the whole blackbody spectrum of their environment.  If the
environment is dark, like in the Correa experiment, and the RF at a
negligible minimum, all you're left with is IR/microwave photons.  So
suppose the environment was being heated by some abnormal influx of
these photons, then the control thermometer would have to either remain
constant or steadily go up.  But if you look at figures 1 and 3 of that
Correa paper in Infinite Energy, you will see that what the thermometers
in their lab showed was diurnal variations and an overall cooling trend.
So effectively, there is no explanation for the To-T phenomenon that can
be based on absorption of blackbody photons, whether they are RF or IR
or visible light.  The temperature difference is not because the Faraday
cages are being heated with heat - that's just the point the
"Rothwell-Kooistra hypothesis" seems to be missing.  It is not heat that
feeds their heat. The Correas argument, as I understand it, from their
monographs that none of you guys seem to have read, is that something
else that comes from the Sun (and also the Earth) penetrates that
dark basement and produces, in the neighbourhood of the thermometer on
top of the Faraday cage, the excess of IR and microwave photons
responsible for the temperature difference.  I am sure this argument
needs to be considered very carefully.  It may have holes in it, but it
sure doesn't look like it's any of you guys that will give it the careful
consideration it calls for or find the holes that it may have, seeing
that all you guys have time, will and ability for is these silly tangos.


Cheers,

Patrick


_________________________________________________________________
Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! 
http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 27 11:30:47 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id LAA31928;
	Sun, 27 Oct 2002 11:29:28 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 11:29:28 -0800
Message-ID: <3DBC3E18.D0E3977 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:27:20 +0200
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Reply-To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Photons and gravity, a thought experiment
References: <v01530500b9e1873f8799 [12.21.208.56]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"RU2fB.0.oo7.Ow3lz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48196
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Dear Horace,

Recently, while looking for a method to test Podkletnov's "gravity impulse" gravitational nature, I thought laser interferometry method based on gravitational redshift.

I realized first a thought experiment to show photons have inertia and weight under a gravitational field.

The experiment is actually based on observation and does not require a theory. Here it is:

1) Gravitational redshift is measured on laboratory at 1965. http://www.mth.uct.ac.za/omei/gr/chap5/node2.html.

2) Doppler effect is also very well known.

3) Experiment consist of isotropic light source (a lamp, at least symmetric on one axis), placed in center of an opaque box. 

4) Showing photons have inertia: For practical reason I chose a terrestrial lab for this experiment.

- Place the box on a horizontal surface able to move without friction. Photons from the inside source exert equal radiation pressure on opposing surfaces.

- Now accelerate the box on a horizontal direction and observe the effect from the box reference frame. Because the acceleration and finite (c) photon speed, Observers on each wall see the the lamp having different speed. Therefore they observe photons red shifted and blue shifted respecting their positions. Number of photons arriving to each wall during the experiment assumed equal. See figure http://gravity.webhostme.com/files/figure1.gif . (Lamp is not shown) Because the walls receive the photons on different wavelengths radiation pressure on walls are no longer equal and they not cancel each other but cause a force in the direction opposing the acceleration. This is inertia of photons. 

5) Now examine radiation pressure on top and bottom surface of the box staying at rest on earth surface.

According (1) photons arrives to bottom  a bit blue-shifted and to top red-shifted. force corresponding radiation pressure difference correspond to weight of the photons. Same conclusion can be obtained not using (1) but assuming the box is constantly accelerated upward by the rigid platform preventing the box free fall into earth center.

In order to simplify calculations, we can also design the experiment with trapped photons inside a box having perfect reflectance. Just consider only two photons ping-ponging between walls

Let d is the length of the box, g is acceleration.

wavelength shift (Zg) on each direction is 

Zg = d.g / c^2

momentum of photon of energy e is

p = e/c

as energy of shifted photons varies by Zg

e1 = e(1+Zg)

e2 = e(1-Zg)


Radiation pressure

F= I/c

I is the the energy received in unit of time. If we consider only one photon to each wall.

ping-ponging 2 photon between walls, time requiring one photon travel the box

t = d/c

so in one second each wall receive  1/t photons

I = e/t = ec/d

F = e/d

F1=e(1+Zg)/d
F2=e(1-Zg)/d
Fdiff = F1 - F2 

      = 2.Zg.e / d 

Opening Zg

Fdiff = 2.(d.g / c^2).e / d
      = 2 g e / c^2

Note that the Fdiff is independent of distance between walls

Total energy of two photons 

E = 2 * e

mass corresponding this energy 

m= 2e/c^2

Now if the Fdiff is really the inertial force of photons
it will satisfy Newton's f = m.a equations

placing f g and m in F=m.a formula

     f        =     m        a     
-------------    ---------  ---
2 g e / c ^2  =    2e/c^2  * g


Both sides are equal, Bingo!

hamdix

Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> I would briefly like to discuss from my amateur point of view some
> speculations relating to photon mass and momentum, and then suggest a
> thought experiment.
> 
> Photons are today not thought to carry mass.  However, it seems there is
> good reason to question this view.  Energy and mass are inseparable in
> energy exchanges by photon.  The universe may or may not spontaneously
> create mass and therefore energy from the vacuum, but it seems reasonable
> that in this universe mass and energy must remain in the balance
> 
>    E/m = c^2.
> 
> That is because photons carry momentum, and momentum corresponds to energy.
> By Plank's law, photons carry energy E:
> 
>    E = h*nu = h(c/lambda)
> 
> and momentum
> 
>    p = h/lambda
> 
> so photons always carry momentum and energy in the ratio
> 
>    E/p = h(c/lambda)/(h/lambda) = c
> 
> Assume a photon is created by a nuclear event, where mass (delta m) is
> converted to energy at the exchange rate of E = (delta m) c^2, thus there
> is a loss of mass:
> 
>    (delta m) = E/c^2.
> 
> This photon is thought, by conventional theory, to carry no mass, only the
> momentum p = E/c.  However, to conserve momentum, a photon absorbed by a
> target mass must impart to the target mass an additional kinetic energy
> (delta K) corresponding to the change in velocity of the target due to the
> momentum change of the impacted mass, and if energy is conserved then
> (delta K)=E.  However, by the special theory of relativity, that results in
> a corresponding increase in apparent mass of the absorbing body by the
> ratio  (delta K)/c^2 = (delta m).  So we have the mass (delta m) back!  The
> photon carried mass (delta m) from one body to another.  Therefore *both*
> mass and energy are conserved in a photon exchange, as is the ratio E/m =
> c^2.
> 
> The strange thing is that photons clearly carry mass from one place to
> another, i.e. do mass exchange, yet are thought to have no mass.  Further,
> it is well known (from lensing effects of stars) that photons are bent by
> gravity in an amount exactly equal to the amount a mass carrying body would
> be bent. It is said this proves space is warped about gravitational bodies,
> in that the supposedly mass-free photon travels the same path as a high
> speed mass carrying particle.
> 
> It seems far more logical that the photon has mass.  Photons are trapped in
> a black hole by gravity.  Strange that a photon traveling directly away
> from a black hole, a singularity, supposedly reverses course upon itself,
> retracing its path right back to the black hole!  If this is because space
> is warped, how is it the electron has a path to retrace at all, and how is
> it that velocity c is maintained?
> 

[some skipping]

> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 27 15:37:39 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA23908;
	Sun, 27 Oct 2002 15:33:49 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 15:33:49 -0800
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <174.10df5636.2aedd1b4 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 18:33:08 EST
Subject: a photon is a box
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_174.10df5636.2aedd1b4_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634
Resent-Message-ID: <"xF-ap.0.Tr5.TV7lz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48197
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


--part1_174.10df5636.2aedd1b4_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 10/27/02 2:31:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:


> 4) Showing photons have inertia: For practical reason I chose a terrestrial 
> lab for this experiment.
> 
> - Place the box on a horizontal surface able to move without friction. 
> Photons from the inside source exert equal radiation pressure on opposing 
> surfaces.
> 
> - Now accelerate the box on a horizontal direction and observe the effect 
> from the box reference frame. Because the acceleration and finite (c) 
> photon speed, Observers on each wall see the the lamp having different 
> speed. Therefore they observe photons red shifted and blue shifted 
> respecting their positions. Number of photons arriving to each wall during 
> the experiment assumed equal. See figure 
> http://gravity.webhostme.com/files/figure1.gif . (Lamp is not shown) 
> Because the walls receive the photons on different wavelengths radiation 
> pressure on walls are no longer equal and they not cancel each other but 
> cause a force in the direction opposing the acceleration. This is inertia 
> of photons. 
> 
> 

This is very good.  It shows the matter wavefunction travels at velocity C 
not V and is held in place by restraining forces.  This idea is central to my 
work.  I sent a paper on this subject to Gene Mallove.  He rejected it.  Its 
now being reviewed at Galien Electrodyanmics.  This work needs publiched.

          A Low Energy Model of Matter

By

  Frank Znidarsic  PE


INTRODUCTION

The atomic energy associated with events on a human scale is quite small.  
The 

magnitude of such energy is only a fraction of an electron volt.  Chemical

reactions produce higher levels of energy.  Chemical energy levels are 
measured 

in electron volts.   Nuclear reactions produce the highest levels of atomic 

energy. The energy produced by nuclear reactions is measured in millions of 

electrons volts.  The scientific community commonly assumes that nothing

fundamental remains to be discovered at lower energy levels.  Most research

today at takes place at millions of electron volts of energy.  At these high

energies, quarks revel themselves and exotic theories seem to apply.  Pons 
and

Fleischmann discovered nuclear reactions that take place at very low 
energies.

Most physicists baulked at this discovery.  The existing theoretical 
construct

does not allow for such reactions. This author has discovered a flaw in the

existing theoretical construct.  The correction of this flaw produced a 
modified

low energy model.  The corrected model provides a simple explanation to many 
new

and long standing mysteries.  The standard model states that the matter wave 
can

move at any velocity lower than the speed of light.  Waves in an ether do

propagate in such a manner.  Water and sound waves are examples of such 
motion.

Matter waves do not propagate within an ether.  Matter waves are fields of

energy in space.  Such fields, like all other fields, should propagate at the

speed of light. This author states that the matter wave propagates at the 
speed

of light.  The energy of matter does not radiate away because it is held in

place by restraining forces.  A simple model was developed.  This model shows

a wave of energy trapped in a well. Refer to figure #1.  An analysis of this

model explained many long-standing mysteries.  A review of some previously

published analytics will now be presented.  It has never been explained why

matter shrinks and swells with velocity.  This shrinking and swelling is

expressed by the deBroglie wavelength of matter. This author's model offers a

classical explanation for this dynamic property of matter.  The energy in the

containment was shown to oscillate at the fixed Compton frequency of matter. 
The

frequency of this energy doppler shifts upon bouncing off the wall of a 
moving

containment.  The original and the Doppler shifted components combine to 
produce

a beat note.  The length of the beat note was shown to equal the dynamic

deBroglie wavelength of matter.1,4,5  General Relativity describes 
large-scale

gravitational affects.  The theory of General Relativity was never fully

incorporated into quantum physics.  This author's model provides a mechanism

that provides a link between General Relativity and quantum physics.  As the

energy on strikes the containment wall it generates an outward force.  
According

to General Relativity, this force is of the magnitude required to induce the

gravitational field of matter.2  This author has examined the process of

reflection at the confinement wall.  It was shown that the reflection occurs

when the intensity of the matter wave exceeds the elastic limit of free 
space.

A new idea was put forth.  This idea is that space has a limit to elasticity.

The nature of the elasticity was examined.  This analysis revealed that 
nuclear

and gravitational anomalies can take place within a vibrationally stimulated

Bose condensate.1, 3 The present analysis will develop a link between this

author's model and Special Relativity.  The reader should keep in mind that 
the

model is not a theory of everything.  It is a model that describes the 
ordinary

harmonic motion of a wave at low energies.4 The level of energy at which the

model apples is accessible with low cost technology.  Unlike most of high 
energy

physics, this author's construct is of direct economic interest.






THE INERTIAL MASS OF A TRAPPED WAVE


Inertial mass will be described in terms of trapped wave.  Figure #1 shows a 
wave trapped in a massless perfectly reflecting containment.  The wave 
propagates at light speed.  The wave is simple harmonic motion.  It is a 
simplistic representation of matter. The containment is at rest and energy is 
ejected from wall "A".  The momentum of this energy is momentum is p1.  The 
energy now travels to wall "B".  It strikes wall B and bounces off.  Its 
momentum is p2.  The wave of energy now travels back to wall "A", bounces 
off, and its momentum returns to p1.  This process repeats continuously.  The 
energy in the containment is evenly distributed. One have of the energy is 
moving in the forward direction and one half of the energy is moving in the 
reverse direction. The momentum carried by this energy is expressed by in 
equation #1.


         pt  = [p1 /2 - p2 /2]                                 Eq #1     
                     


  The momentum carried energy is given by equation #2.


         p = E/c                                           Eq #2

                            E =  energy
                            c = light speed
                            p = momentum 



Substituting eq. #2 into eq. #1 yields eq. #3.



         pt  = (E1/2c - E2/2c)                              Eq. #3 
                                                   
   
Given that the containment is at rest.  The total amount of energy in the 
containment remains fixed, the quantity of energy traveling in the forward 
direction E1 equals the quantity of energy traveling in the reverse direction 
E2.  This is shown in equation #4.


          E1 = E2                                        Eq #4          
          
Substituting Eq. #4 into Eq. #3 yields Eq #5.


         pt  = (E/2c)(1 - 1)                               Eq #5          
          

Equation #5 is the total momentum of the system at rest.  If an external 
force is applied to the system its velocity will increase.  The incident 
energy Ei   strikes a containment wall.  The reflected energy Er is doppler 
shifted in frequency. The energy contained by a reflected wave varies 
directly with the frequency of the wave.  This is demonstrated in equation 
#6. 

         Er / Ei = fr / fi                                    Eq. #6          

          

Substituting Eq. #6 into Eq #5. yields eq. #7.

         pt  = (E/2c)[(fr /fi ) - (fr /fi )]                      Eq #7       

                                                          


Equation #7 is the momentum of a moving system after its energy has bounced 
off of the containment walls once. Equation #7 expresses a net flow of energy 
in one direction.  Equation #7 is the momentum of a moving system.  The 
reader may desire to analyze the system after successive bounces of its 
energy.  This analysis is quite involved and unnecessary. The momentum of the 
system is conserved.  A second analysis will be a repeat of the first.

Relativistic doppler shift is given by equation #8.

                            
         (fr /fi ) = (1-v2/c2)1/2 /(1 +- v/c),                   Eq #8        
   
           

                                    v = velocity with respect
                                        to the observer

                                    c = light speed

                                fr /fi  = frequency ratio
                                 
                                + or - depends on the direction of motion


Substituting equation #8 into equation #7 yields equation #9


                  
                      (1-v2/c2 )1/2     (1-v2/c2)1/2              
        pt =  [E/2c]  _______________  -   _______________       Eq #9        
                         
                       (1-v/c)        (1+v/c)      
                                                
           

                                       
                      (1+v/c)(1-v2/c2)1/2       (1-v/c)(1-v2/c2)1/2  
         pt =  [E/2c]  ____________________________   -   __
____________________________
                         (1+v/c)(1-v/c)         (1-v/c)(1+v/c)    
                

                                    
                                      
          pt =  (E/2c)[(1-v2/c2)1/2 +(1 +v/c -1 +v/c)]/(1-v2/c2)            
                  
                   
    
          pt =   Ev / c2(1-v2/c2)1/2                                      Eq 
#10



Substituting mass for energy (equation #11) yields into equation #10 yields 
equation #12.


      M = E/c2             Eq #11                

                
          pt =  Mv /(1-v2/c2)1/2                                  Eq #12


The result, equation #12 is the relativistic momentum of moving matter.  This 
analysis graphically demonstrates that inertial mass is produced by the 
containment of a wave of energy. A fundamental change of reference is 
produced by the containment.  The containment converts energy, which can only 
travel at light speed, into mass, which can travel at any speed but light 
speed.



NOTES

1.  Frank Znidarsic,  "The Constants of the Motion", The Journal of New     
          Energy September 8-9, 2000

2. Frank Znidarsic "Force and Gravity", Infinite Energy, Volume 4, Issue  
    22, 1998

3. Frank Znidarsic "The Constants of the Motion", Transactions of the   
    American Nuclear Society, Volume 83 1-536(2000), ISSN: 003-018X

         
4.  Jennison R.C. has found that electromagnetic standing waves have         
    an effective gravitational and inertial mass.

          "Extraordinary Science", Vol 3 issure #1 Jan 91
          "Wireless World"  June 1979.  Pg 43

5. Bernhard Haisch of the California Institute of Technology has begun to     
    
    follow a similar logical construct.

http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9906084



        


--part1_174.10df5636.2aedd1b4_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 10/27/02 2:31:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">4) Showing photons have inertia: For practical reason I chose a terrestrial lab for this experiment.<BR>
<BR>
- Place the box on a horizontal surface able to move without friction. Photons from the inside source exert equal radiation pressure on opposing surfaces.<BR>
<BR>
- Now accelerate the box on a horizontal direction and observe the effect from the box reference frame. Because the acceleration and finite (c) photon speed, Observers on each wall see the the lamp having different speed. Therefore they observe photons red shifted and blue shifted respecting their positions. Number of photons arriving to each wall during the experiment assumed equal. See figure http://gravity.webhostme.com/files/figure1.gif . (Lamp is not shown) Because the walls receive the photons on different wavelengths radiation pressure on walls are no longer equal and they not cancel each other but cause a force in the direction opposing the acceleration. This is inertia of photons. <BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
This is very good.&nbsp; It shows the matter wavefunction travels at velocity C not V and is held in place by restraining forces.&nbsp; This idea is central to my work.&nbsp; I sent a paper on this subject to Gene Mallove.&nbsp; He rejected it.&nbsp; Its now being reviewed at Galien Electrodyanmics.&nbsp; This work needs publiched.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A Low Energy Model of Matter<BR>
<BR>
By<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; Frank Znidarsic&nbsp; PE<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
INTRODUCTION<BR>
<BR>
The atomic energy associated with events on a human scale is quite small.&nbsp; The <BR>
<BR>
magnitude of such energy is only a fraction of an electron volt.&nbsp; Chemical<BR>
<BR>
reactions produce higher levels of energy.&nbsp; Chemical energy levels are measured <BR>
<BR>
in electron volts.&nbsp;&nbsp; Nuclear reactions produce the highest levels of atomic <BR>
<BR>
energy. The energy produced by nuclear reactions is measured in millions of <BR>
<BR>
electrons volts.&nbsp; The scientific community commonly assumes that nothing<BR>
<BR>
fundamental remains to be discovered at lower energy levels.&nbsp; Most research<BR>
<BR>
today at takes place at millions of electron volts of energy.&nbsp; At these high<BR>
<BR>
energies, quarks revel themselves and exotic theories seem to apply.&nbsp; Pons and<BR>
<BR>
Fleischmann discovered nuclear reactions that take place at very low energies.<BR>
<BR>
Most physicists baulked at this discovery.&nbsp; The existing theoretical construct<BR>
<BR>
does not allow for such reactions. This author has discovered a flaw in the<BR>
<BR>
existing theoretical construct.&nbsp; The correction of this flaw produced a modified<BR>
<BR>
low energy model.&nbsp; The corrected model provides a simple explanation to many new<BR>
<BR>
and long standing mysteries.&nbsp; The standard model states that the matter wave can<BR>
<BR>
move at any velocity lower than the speed of light.&nbsp; Waves in an ether do<BR>
<BR>
propagate in such a manner.&nbsp; Water and sound waves are examples of such motion.<BR>
<BR>
Matter waves do not propagate within an ether.&nbsp; Matter waves are fields of<BR>
<BR>
energy in space.&nbsp; Such fields, like all other fields, should propagate at the<BR>
<BR>
speed of light. This author states that the matter wave propagates at the speed<BR>
<BR>
of light.&nbsp; The energy of matter does not radiate away because it is held in<BR>
<BR>
place by restraining forces.&nbsp; A simple model was developed.&nbsp; This model shows<BR>
<BR>
a wave of energy trapped in a well. Refer to figure #1.&nbsp; An analysis of this<BR>
<BR>
model explained many long-standing mysteries.&nbsp; A review of some previously<BR>
<BR>
published analytics will now be presented.&nbsp; It has never been explained why<BR>
<BR>
matter shrinks and swells with velocity.&nbsp; This shrinking and swelling is<BR>
<BR>
expressed by the deBroglie wavelength of matter. This author's model offers a<BR>
<BR>
classical explanation for this dynamic property of matter.&nbsp; The energy in the<BR>
<BR>
containment was shown to oscillate at the fixed Compton frequency of matter. The<BR>
<BR>
frequency of this energy doppler shifts upon bouncing off the wall of a moving<BR>
<BR>
containment.&nbsp; The original and the Doppler shifted components combine to produce<BR>
<BR>
a beat note.&nbsp; The length of the beat note was shown to equal the dynamic<BR>
<BR>
deBroglie wavelength of matter.1,4,5&nbsp; General Relativity describes large-scale<BR>
<BR>
gravitational affects.&nbsp; The theory of General Relativity was never fully<BR>
<BR>
incorporated into quantum physics.&nbsp; This author's model provides a mechanism<BR>
<BR>
that provides a link between General Relativity and quantum physics.&nbsp; As the<BR>
<BR>
energy on strikes the containment wall it generates an outward force.&nbsp; According<BR>
<BR>
to General Relativity, this force is of the magnitude required to induce the<BR>
<BR>
gravitational field of matter.2&nbsp; This author has examined the process of<BR>
<BR>
reflection at the confinement wall.&nbsp; It was shown that the reflection occurs<BR>
<BR>
when the intensity of the matter wave exceeds the elastic limit of free space.<BR>
<BR>
A new idea was put forth.&nbsp; This idea is that space has a limit to elasticity.<BR>
<BR>
The nature of the elasticity was examined.&nbsp; This analysis revealed that nuclear<BR>
<BR>
and gravitational anomalies can take place within a vibrationally stimulated<BR>
<BR>
Bose condensate.1, 3 The present analysis will develop a link between this<BR>
<BR>
author's model and Special Relativity.&nbsp; The reader should keep in mind that the<BR>
<BR>
model is not a theory of everything.&nbsp; It is a model that describes the ordinary<BR>
<BR>
harmonic motion of a wave at low energies.4 The level of energy at which the<BR>
<BR>
model apples is accessible with low cost technology.&nbsp; Unlike most of high energy<BR>
<BR>
physics, this author's construct is of direct economic interest.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
THE INERTIAL MASS OF A TRAPPED WAVE<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Inertial mass will be described in terms of trapped wave.&nbsp; Figure #1 shows a wave trapped in a massless perfectly reflecting containment.&nbsp; The wave propagates at light speed.&nbsp; The wave is simple harmonic motion.&nbsp; It is a simplistic representation of matter. The containment is at rest and energy is ejected from wall "A".&nbsp; The momentum of this energy is momentum is p1.&nbsp; The energy now travels to wall "B".&nbsp; It strikes wall B and bounces off.&nbsp; Its momentum is p2.&nbsp; The wave of energy now travels back to wall "A", bounces off, and its momentum returns to p1.&nbsp; This process repeats continuously.&nbsp; The energy in the containment is evenly distributed. One have of the energy is moving in the forward direction and one half of the energy is moving in the reverse direction. The momentum carried by this energy is expressed by in equation #1.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pt&nbsp; = [p1 /2 - p2 /2]&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Eq #1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp; The momentum carried energy is given by equation #2.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; p = E/c&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Eq #2<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; E =&nbsp; energy<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c = light speed<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; p = momentum <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Substituting eq. #2 into eq. #1 yields eq. #3.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pt&nbsp; = (E1/2c - E2/2c)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Eq. #3 <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
Given that the containment is at rest.&nbsp; The total amount of energy in the containment remains fixed, the quantity of energy traveling in the forward direction E1 equals the quantity of energy traveling in the reverse direction E2.&nbsp; This is shown in equation #4.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; E1 = E2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Eq #4&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
Substituting Eq. #4 into Eq. #3 yields Eq #5.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pt&nbsp; = (E/2c)(1 - 1)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Eq #5&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Equation #5 is the total momentum of the system at rest.&nbsp; If an external force is applied to the system its velocity will increase.&nbsp; The incident energy Ei&nbsp;&nbsp; strikes a containment wall.&nbsp; The reflected energy Er is doppler shifted in frequency. The energy contained by a reflected wave varies directly with the frequency of the wave.&nbsp; This is demonstrated in equation #6. <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Er / Ei = fr / fi&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Eq. #6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
Substituting Eq. #6 into Eq #5. yields eq. #7.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pt&nbsp; = (E/2c)[(fr /fi ) - (fr /fi )]&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Eq #7&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Equation #7 is the momentum of a moving system after its energy has bounced off of the containment walls once. Equation #7 expresses a net flow of energy in one direction.&nbsp; Equation #7 is the momentum of a moving system.&nbsp; The reader may desire to analyze the system after successive bounces of its energy.&nbsp; This analysis is quite involved and unnecessary. The momentum of the system is conserved.&nbsp; A second analysis will be a repeat of the first.<BR>
<BR>
Relativistic doppler shift is given by equation #8.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (fr /fi ) = (1-v2/c2)1/2 /(1 +- v/c),&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Eq #8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; v = velocity with respect<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to the observer<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c = light speed<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; fr /fi&nbsp; = frequency ratio<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; + or - depends on the direction of motion<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Substituting equation #8 into equation #7 yields equation #9<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (1-v2/c2 )1/2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (1-v2/c2)1/2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pt =&nbsp; [E/2c]&nbsp; _______________&nbsp; -&nbsp;&nbsp; _______________&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Eq #9&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (1-v/c)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (1+v/c)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (1+v/c)(1-v2/c2)1/2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (1-v/c)(1-v2/c2)1/2&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pt =&nbsp; [E/2c]&nbsp; ____________________________&nbsp;&nbsp; -&nbsp;&nbsp; ______________________________<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (1+v/c)(1-v/c)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (1-v/c)(1+v/c)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pt =&nbsp; (E/2c)[(1-v2/c2)1/2 +(1 +v/c -1 +v/c)]/(1-v2/c2)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pt =&nbsp;&nbsp; Ev / c2(1-v2/c2)1/2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Eq #10<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Substituting mass for energy (equation #11) yields into equation #10 yields equation #12.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; M = E/c2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Eq #11&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pt =&nbsp; Mv /(1-v2/c2)1/2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Eq #12<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
The result, equation #12 is the relativistic momentum of moving matter.&nbsp; This analysis graphically demonstrates that inertial mass is produced by the containment of a wave of energy. A fundamental change of reference is produced by the containment.&nbsp; The containment converts energy, which can only travel at light speed, into mass, which can travel at any speed but light speed.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
NOTES<BR>
<BR>
1.&nbsp; Frank Znidarsic,&nbsp; "The Constants of the Motion", The Journal of New&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Energy September 8-9, 2000<BR>
<BR>
2. Frank Znidarsic "Force and Gravity", Infinite Energy, Volume 4, Issue&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 22, 1998<BR>
<BR>
3. Frank Znidarsic "The Constants of the Motion", Transactions of the&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; American Nuclear Society, Volume 83 1-536(2000), ISSN: 003-018X<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
4.&nbsp; Jennison R.C. has found that electromagnetic standing waves have&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; an effective gravitational and inertial mass.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "Extraordinary Science", Vol 3 issure #1 Jan 91<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "Wireless World"&nbsp; June 1979.&nbsp; Pg 43<BR>
<BR>
5. Bernhard Haisch of the California Institute of Technology has begun to&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; follow a similar logical construct.<BR>
<BR>
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9906084<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_174.10df5636.2aedd1b4_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 27 16:44:49 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA16762;
	Sun, 27 Oct 2002 16:43:15 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 16:43:15 -0800
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <154.16967681.2aede1fe aol.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 19:42:38 EST
Subject: Fwd: Photons and gravity, a thought experiment
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_154.16967681.2aede1fe_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634
Resent-Message-ID: <"IXWTU2.0.m54.YW8lz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48198
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


--part1_154.16967681.2aede1fe_boundary
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="part1_154.16967681.2aede1fe_alt_boundary"


--part1_154.16967681.2aede1fe_alt_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 10/27/02 7:17:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:


> 
> What is the most impressing thing is: the inertia is shown as momentum 
> differences of doppler shifted em wave. 
> 
> I speculate then the gravity itself could be an effect just causing 
> wavelength shift 


--part1_154.16967681.2aede1fe_alt_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 10/27/02 7:17:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
What is the most impressing thing is: the inertia is shown as momentum differences of doppler shifted em wave. <BR>
<BR>
I speculate then the gravity itself could be an effect just causing wavelength shift </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_154.16967681.2aede1fe_alt_boundary--

--part1_154.16967681.2aede1fe_boundary
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline

Return-Path: <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Received: from  rly-xe02.mx.aol.com (rly-xe02.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.194]) by air-xe03.mail.aol.com (v89.10) with ESMTP id MAILINXE33-1027191712; Sun, 27 Oct 2002 19:17:12 -0400
Received: from  camelot.verisoft.com.tr (camelot.verisoft.com.tr [212.174.107.4]) by rly-xe02.mx.aol.com (v89.10) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXE22-1027191643; Sun, 27 Oct 2002 19:16:43 -0500
Received: (qmail 18527 invoked from network); 28 Oct 2002 00:19:04 -0000
Received: from abn7-76.ist-avrupa-ports.kablonet.net.tr (HELO verisoft.com.tr) (195.174.7.76)
  by 0 with SMTP; 28 Oct 2002 00:19:04 -0000
Message-ID: <3DBC820D.F09722D4 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 02:17:17 +0200
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Reply-To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
CC: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Subject: Re: Photons and gravity, a thought experiment
References: <1c7.b025c7.2aedd118 aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Frank,

Thank you. I briefly read your paper and refreshed my memory. I had also previously tried to formulate this experiment but things went complex because I observed the effect from an inertial frame of reference. This time I just used the local frame of reference of accelerating embodiment (box) and everything is simplified instantly.

What is the most impressing thing is: the inertia is shown as momentum differences of doppler shifted em wave. 

I speculate then the gravity itself could be an effect just causing wavelength shift on em waves, but nothing more. This could be only true if everything is made from em waves. Gravity is produced because em waves interact on itself. This is way how the matter forms and far field of this self interaction accumulate in a stochastic way to produce the familiar gravity.

maybe Podkletnov's gravity impulse is produced by external excitation of the mechanism present on self interaction of em waves. the result is a strong gravitational field because the coherence. It sound nice., but just a speculation.

Regards,

hamdi ucar



FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 10/27/02 2:31:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:
> 
> > 4) Showing photons have inertia: For practical reason I chose a terrestrial lab for this experiment.
> >
> > - Place the box on a horizontal surface able to move without friction. Photons from the inside source exert equal radiation pressure on opposing surfaces.
> >
> > - Now accelerate the box on a horizontal direction and observe the effect from the box reference frame. Because the acceleration and finite (c) photon speed, Observers on each wall see the the lamp having different speed. Therefore they observe photons red shifted and blue shifted respecting their positions. Number of photons arriving to each wall during the experiment assumed equal. See figure http://gravity.webhostme.com/files/figure1.gif . (Lamp is not shown) Because the walls receive the photons on different wavelengths radiation pressure on walls are no longer equal and they not cancel each other but cause a force in the direction opposing the acceleration. This is inertia of photons.
> >
> 
> This is very good.  It shows the matter wavefunction travels at velocity C not V and is held in place by restraining forces.  This idea is central to my work.  I sent a paper on this subject to Gene Mallove.  He rejected it.  Its now being reviewed at galien Electrodyanmics.  This work needs publiched.
> 
>           A Low Energy Model of Matter
> 
> By
> 
>   Frank Znidarsic  PE
>


--part1_154.16967681.2aede1fe_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 27 16:46:11 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id QAA17271;
	Sun, 27 Oct 2002 16:44:48 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 16:44:48 -0800
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <6b.d0da1f.2aede25c aol.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 19:44:12 EST
Subject: Fwd: Photons and gravity, a thought experiment
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_6b.d0da1f.2aede25c_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634
Resent-Message-ID: <"3NOlk.0.nD4.0Y8lz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48199
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


--part1_6b.d0da1f.2aede25c_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

--part1_6b.d0da1f.2aede25c_boundary
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline

Return-path: <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Full-name: FZNIDARSIC
Message-ID: <54.f5d59b.2aede1e2 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 19:42:10 EST
Subject: Re: Photons and gravity, a thought experiment
To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part2_6b.d0da1f.2aede1e2_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634


--part2_6b.d0da1f.2aede1e2_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 10/27/02 7:17:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:


> 
> What is the most impressing thing is: the inertia is shown as momentum 
> differences of doppler shifted em wave. 
> 
> I speculate then the gravity itself could be an effect just causing 
> wavelength shift 

Now your getting it.  From general relativity gravity = g/ccr (dp/dt)

Gravity is produced by a chage in momentum (dp/dt) times a motion constant 
(G/ccr)   The outword pressure on the box generates the gravity.  This was 
published in IE.

 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter7.html">Chapter 7</A> 


You getting it.  Keep going.

Frank Znidarsic

--part2_6b.d0da1f.2aede1e2_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 10/27/02 7:17:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR>
What is the most impressing thing is: the inertia is shown as momentum differences of doppler shifted em wave. <BR>
<BR>
I speculate then the gravity itself could be an effect just causing wavelength shift </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Now your getting it.&nbsp; From general relativity gravity = g/ccr (dp/dt)<BR>
<BR>
Gravity is produced by a chage in momentum (dp/dt) times a motion constant (G/ccr)&nbsp;&nbsp; The outword pressure on the box generates the gravity.&nbsp; This was published in IE.<BR>
<BR>
 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter7.html">Chapter 7</A> <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
You getting it.&nbsp; Keep going.<BR>
<BR>
Frank Znidarsic</FONT></HTML>

--part2_6b.d0da1f.2aede1e2_boundary--

--part1_6b.d0da1f.2aede25c_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 27 21:08:09 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id VAA25324;
	Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:07:29 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:07:29 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05111b01b9e2764035d2 [64.61.198.74]>
In-Reply-To: <16.2749d61f.2aea1766 aol.com>
References: <16.2749d61f.2aea1766 aol.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 23:08:18 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: (no subject)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1176340784==_ma============"
Resent-Message-ID: <"hdyW81.0.ZB6.GOClz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48200
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

--============_-1176340784==_ma============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

>I'm not sure I should have agreed to a a 20 page interview in this 
>publication.  It may have hurt my reputation.  It was fun. Most of 
>the sutuff in the book is not so true.  I was published word for 
>word.  What next?
>
>Frank Znidarsic

You said it Frank, any book that talks about are we already on Mars 
is not so true

Thomas


--============_-1176340784==_ma============
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: (no subject)</title></head><body>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">I'm not sure
I should have agreed to a a 20 page interview in this publication.&nbsp;
It may have hurt my reputation.&nbsp; It was fun. Most of the sutuff
in the book is not so true.&nbsp; I was published word for word.&nbsp;
What next?</font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial"
size="-1"><br></font></blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">Frank
Znidarsic</font></blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>You said it Frank, any book that talks about are we already on
Mars is not so true</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Thomas</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
</body>
</html>
--============_-1176340784==_ma============--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Oct 27 22:46:55 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id WAA26535;
	Sun, 27 Oct 2002 22:45:56 -0800
Resent-Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 22:45:56 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Message-Id: <a05111b00b9e12446e0a4 [209.23.136.1]>
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 00:46:45 -0600
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: the biggest number?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Resent-Message-ID: <"kW9F91.0.VU6.aqDlz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48201
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I've just spent five hours reading and scanning  Breakthough: 
Encountering the Reality of the Bible Code. The author, R. Edwin 
Sherman, is a mathematician, and a statistician.

Several years ago the late Carl Sagan did a show for the People's 
Broadcasting System called Cosmos. My moniker for it was Cosmic Bull 
__it. I can still remember Sagan droning on about how the solar 
system aggregated out of a vast cloud of dust and gases. Then he 
continued by explaining how life began spontaneously. Given my 
religious views, I'm sure you can appreciate my reasons for hanging 
the moniker on the good doctor's efforts.

Carl went on to speculate that the total number of particles in the 
universe was 1 with 100 zeros behind it. He named this number a 
googleplex. Well, Mr. Sherman has come up with a rather bigger 
number. This number represents the probability of all the Bible Code 
sequences yet observed, being due to chance, it is 1: 1 with 220 
zeros behind it. Given the expodential increase in the size of 
numbers, that is one big number. any suggestions on what to name it?

I can purchase the software to do Bible Code for $40, even I can 
afford that. Given the inclusion of Einstein, I thinking that I 
should try Tesla, Dirac, Puthoff, Aspden , Zitternbewegung, and zero 
point energy.

The book, which is in a .pdf encripted format, is available for the 
asking. It is 280 pages. The Einstein codes hit the nail right on the 
head.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 28 13:46:24 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id NAA11955;
	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:40:26 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:40:26 -0800
Message-ID: <3DBDAED1.120FEC78 verisoft.com.tr>
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 23:40:33 +0200
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix verisoft.com.tr>
Reply-To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: FZNIDARSIC aol.com, vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
CC: orchestra ttnet.net.tr
Subject: Re: Photons and gravity, a thought experiment
References: <54.f5d59b.2aede1e2 aol.com>
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"rJQa-3.0.cw2.8xQlz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48202
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<font size=+1>Dear Frank,</font>
<p><font size=+1>You wrote:</font>
<p><b><font size=+1>gravity = G/c<sup>2</sup>r(dp/dt)</font></b>
<p><font size=+1>I am not good in math but it appears it does not cause
a potential like electric, magnetic or gravitational field. These fields
are conservative, that is a particle experiencing a force by one of these
field, does not gain energy if it follow a closed path.</font>
<br><font size=+1>Line integral of a force vector along a closed path inside
a conservative fields should be zero.</font>
<p><b><font face="Symbol"><font size=+1>&oacute;</font></font></b>
<br><b><font size=+1><font face="Symbol">O </font><tt>dF/dl = 0</tt></font></b>
<br><b><font face="Symbol"><font size=+1>&otilde;</font></font></b>
<br><b><tt><font size=+1>c</font></tt></b>
<p><font size=+1>In the case of <b>G/c<sup>2</sup>r(dp/dt)</b>, this is
a vector, i could nor realize how this vector cause a field or potential.
This vector should be also a non static vector. Which mechanism or process
do you think allow the conservative and static gravitational field be obtained
from this vector?</font>
<p><font size=+1>This question is very important for me because Podkletnov's
Gravity impulse look like more to this vector rather than the familiar
gravity. It appears it is non conservative, unless&nbsp; a sharp barrier
exist on the boundry of the beam.</font>
<br>&nbsp;
<p><font size=+1>FZNIDARSIC aol.com wrote:</font>
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=+1>In a message
dated 10/27/02 7:17:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, hamdix verisoft.com.tr
writes:</font></font>
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;
<blockquote TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&nbsp;
<br><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=+1>What is the most impressing
thing is: the inertia is shown as momentum differences of doppler shifted
em wave.</font></font>
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=+1>I speculate then the gravity
itself could be an effect just causing wavelength shift</font></font></blockquote>
<font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=+1>Now your getting it.&nbsp; From
general relativity gravity = g/ccr (dp/dt)</font></font>
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=+1>Gravity is produced by a
chage in momentum (dp/dt) times a motion constant (G/ccr)&nbsp;&nbsp; The
outword pressure on the box generates the gravity.&nbsp; This was published
in IE.</font></font>
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=+1><a href="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter7.html">Chapter
7</a></font></font>
<br>&nbsp;
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=+1>You getting it.&nbsp; Keep
going.</font></font>
<p><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size=+1>Frank Znidarsic</font></font></blockquote>
</html>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 28 19:10:34 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA09082;
	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 19:06:32 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 19:06:32 -0800
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <163.16663a2f.2aef5502 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:05:38 EST
Subject: Fwd: Photons and gravity, a thought experiment
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_163.16663a2f.2aef5502_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634
Resent-Message-ID: <"hMfSs3.0.kD2.tiVlz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48204
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


--part1_163.16663a2f.2aef5502_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

--part1_163.16663a2f.2aef5502_boundary
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline

Return-path: <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Full-name: FZNIDARSIC
Message-ID: <b4.14364a20.2aef53d6 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:00:38 EST
Subject: Re: Photons and gravity, a thought experiment
To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part2_163.16663a2f.2aef53d6_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634


--part2_163.16663a2f.2aef53d6_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 10/28/02 4:46:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:


> This question is very important for me because Podkletnov's Gravity impulse 
> look like more to this vector rather than the familiar gravity. It appears 
> it is non conservative, unless  a sharp barrier exist on the boundry of the 
> beam. 
>   
> 
> 

You have good points.  For example my model is one dimensional.  Real space 
is three dimensional.  I never did figrure this out.  My model does show near 
field gravitational charges  when d = r.  The rotation of these charges 
produces a gravitomagnetic effect. The field structure of this 
gravitomagnetic effect has curl.   Normally these near field charges excend 
only one fermi meter away from the nucleus.  In a superconductor r has 
macorscopic dimensions.

I need some ideas on a 3d model.

Frank

--part2_163.16663a2f.2aef53d6_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 10/28/02 4:46:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=4 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">This question is very important for me because Podkletnov's Gravity impulse look like more to this vector rather than the familiar gravity. It appears it is non conservative, unless&nbsp; a sharp barrier exist on the boundry of the beam.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"> <BR>
&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
You have good points.&nbsp; For example my model is one dimensional.&nbsp; Real space is three dimensional.&nbsp; I never did figrure this out.&nbsp; My model does show near field gravitational charges&nbsp; when d = r.&nbsp; The rotation of these charges produces a gravitomagnetic effect. The field structure of this gravitomagnetic effect has curl.&nbsp;&nbsp; Normally these near field charges excend only one fermi meter away from the nucleus.&nbsp; In a superconductor r has macorscopic dimensions.<BR>
<BR>
I need some ideas on a 3d model.<BR>
<BR>
Frank</FONT></HTML>

--part2_163.16663a2f.2aef53d6_boundary--

--part1_163.16663a2f.2aef5502_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Oct 28 19:10:44 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id TAA08905;
	Mon, 28 Oct 2002 19:06:10 -0800
Resent-Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 19:06:10 -0800
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Message-ID: <12f.1a01b8ed.2aef54f2 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:05:22 EST
Subject: Fwd: Photons and gravity, a thought experiment
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_12f.1a01b8ed.2aef54f2_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634
Resent-Message-ID: <"SCHzL2.0.2B2.XiVlz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48203
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 


--part1_12f.1a01b8ed.2aef54f2_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

--part1_12f.1a01b8ed.2aef54f2_boundary
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline

Return-path: <FZNIDARSIC aol.com>
From: FZNIDARSIC aol.com
Full-name: FZNIDARSIC
Message-ID: <47.253a61c5.2aef5490 aol.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 22:03:44 EST
Subject: Re: Photons and gravity, a thought experiment
To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part2_12f.1a01b8ed.2aef5490_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 7.0 for Windows US sub 10634


--part2_12f.1a01b8ed.2aef5490_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 10/28/02 5:07:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:


> I am not good in math but it appears it does not cause a potential like 
> electric, magnetic or gravitational field. These 

Yes I did the math on this.

 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter6.html">Chapter 6</A> 

Frank Z

--part2_12f.1a01b8ed.2aef5490_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 10/28/02 5:07:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, hamdix verisoft.com.tr writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=4 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I am not good in math but it appears it does not cause a potential like electric, magnetic or gravitational field. These </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"><BR>
Yes I did the math on this.<BR>
<BR>
 <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/chapter6.html">Chapter 6</A> <BR>
<BR>
Frank Z</FONT></HTML>

--part2_12f.1a01b8ed.2aef5490_boundary--

--part1_12f.1a01b8ed.2aef54f2_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Oct 29 18:30:32 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA27073;
	Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:26:46 -0800
Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:26:46 -0800
Message-ID: <001e01c27fb3$433f7160$7108bf3f computer>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <fstenger suite224.net>, <crquin@rogers.com>, <herman@antioch-college.edu>,
        <puthoff aol.com>, <d.bergman@mindspring.com>,
        <jlsparber earthlink.net>, <ron.brodzinski@pnl.gov>,
        <jonesb9 pacbell.net>
Cc: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Electron Cloud Hypocharge Antigravity?
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 19:25:36 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"Jtv1e.0.ic6.ZDqlz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48205
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Surprisingly, in accord with the General Relativity tenet that "Normal Matter Repels
Negative Matter" the particle model shows that the earth's ~ 5.1E14 coulomb (positive)
hypocharge field should repel an electron with a force of 8.9e-30 newtons, or give it
an acceleration of  9.8 meters/sec^2  i.e., 1.0 gee.

However, with the ~ 42 orders of magnitude preponderance of the electrostatic force
over the gravity force a free electron at the earth's surface readily attaches to the
particles attracted by the gravity field.

OTOH, the positive charge of the ionosphere wrt. the earth, suggests that there may be
an electron cloud  out beyond the ionosphere and/or the Van Allen belt.?

At ~1.42e-41 coulombs gravity hypocharge per electron it would require ~ 1.1e30
"freed" electrons to collect enough hypocharge to repel the earth with 1.0 kilogram
force.

This is akin to having a truckload of canaries all flying to lighten the load. :-)

OTOH, a cylindrical magnetron type of device, where  a radial electric field and axial
magnetic field can have a swarm-sheath of electrons circling an axial electron emitter
where they would feel the upward antigravity force, yet be repelled by the
electron-electron electrostatic force might show that GR is on target.

Podkletnov rotating superconductor disk connection?

Fred





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 30 05:09:33 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id FAA00493;
	Wed, 30 Oct 2002 05:08:04 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 05:08:04 -0800
Message-ID: <000501c2800c$e4a0c6e0$0e11b83f computer>
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re:Electron Cloud Hypocharge Antigravity
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 06:07:10 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Resent-Message-ID: <"Bpepr2.0.d7.qczlz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48206
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

There is an Electron Belt several earth radii beyond the earth's surface, apparently
held there by a closer-in Proton Belt.

http://www.eas.asu.edu/~holbert/eee460/tiondose.html

It figures.  :-)

FJS

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 30 15:06:17 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id PAA09708;
	Wed, 30 Oct 2002 15:01:04 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 15:01:04 -0800
X-Sent: 30 Oct 2002 23:00:45 GMT
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20021030175047.00afb9a0 mail.DIRECTVInternet.com>
X-Sender: jedrothwell mail.DIRECTVInternet.com
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:57:35 -0500
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <JedRothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Ed Storms featured on LENR-CANR.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Resent-Message-ID: <"aWzhJ.0.cN2.mI6mz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48207
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: RO
X-Status: 

[Here is my latest advert for the site. I should write a note of 
appreciation to the so-called "Washington Area Skeptics" for making the 
ERAB report available. - JR]

This week we feature newly uploaded papers by Ed Storms. Storms studied the 
Pons-Fleischmann Effect at Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL) starting 
shortly after the announcement in 1989 and is now working in his own 
laboratory. He has successfully produced excess heat as well as tritium, 
both on numerous occasions. His major interest has been to understand why 
the effect is so hard to replicate and discover the unique conditions 
required for its initiation. To this end, he has surveyed the entire 
literature on the subject and written several critical reviews of the P-F 
effect as well as the field in general. These provide a student with the 
background needed to understand the scientific implications of the claims.

Storms landmark paper How to produce the Pons-Fleischmann effect is 
required reading for anyone who wishes to know how an experiment is 
actually performed. Many skeptics, including the authors of the ERAB report 
(http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ERABreportofth.pdf), have the peculiar notion 
that a cold fusion experiment is inherantly "simple." They wrote that it 
consists of "just a pair of electrodes" immersed in a "jar" (sic) of heavy 
water. This is like characterizing a transistor as "just a slab of silicon 
with a dab of boron and phosphorous thrown in." As this paper shows, 
testing the materials and devising the instruments in a cold fusion 
experiment takes months of intense labor and expert knowledge.

We now have twelve papers by Storms. Here are some recommended for the 
general reader:

How to produce the Pons-Fleischmann effect. StormsEhowtoprodu.pdf

Some Thoughts on the Nature of the Nuclear-Active Regions in Palladium 
StormsEsomethough.pdf

A critical evaluation of the Pons-Fleischmann effect: Part 1 & Part 2 
StormsEacriticale.pdf (both parts are in this file)

Cold Fusion: An Objective Assessment StormsEcoldfusionc.pdf

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Oct 30 18:05:58 2002
Received: (from smartlst localhost)
	by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA11087;
	Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:00:12 -0800
Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:00:12 -0800
Message-Id: <v01530501b9e64178dec1 [12.110.74.21]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:12:33 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Photons and gravity, a thought experiment
Resent-Message-ID: <"-WaPe3.0.4j2.hw8mz" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <vortex-l eskimo.com> archive/latest/48208
X-Loop: vortex-l eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: vortex-l-request eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Sorry, but unfortunately, I will not be able to discuss things here for a
while.  Hope to be back in a few weeks.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          

