From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  1 06:30:15 2002
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Subject: Re: The Correas - Part 4 of 4
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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On 5/31/02 4:42 PM, "FZNIDARSIC aol.com" <FZNIDARSIC@aol.com> wrote:

> I'm into alternate energy but I do not understand why Mallove is so posessed
> by the Correas. 

Because their work is *copiously experimentally based* and I have  verified
enough of it to my own personal satisfaction. There needs to be some
alternative to the obviously false special and general relativity theories.
And, there is evident need to explain *highly anomalous* phenomena connected
with electroscopes and Faraday cages -- IF one examines the data.
Furthermore, work by a corporate group  concerning PAGD, which I am not at
liberty to discuss, is going in a very encouraging direction. Finally, I am
persuaded that a number of inventions that I have personally witnessed and
tested for possible flaws (NOT a complete vetting, but quite adequate for
these purposes) are real.


> They speak goppley goop.

No, they do not. Perhaps you lack the skill to understand their work, but
more likely, you have not studied their experiments and nor have you made
any significant effort. Also, you are suffering from your own peculiar form
of paradigm paralysis -- similar to the one Hal Puthoff and Bernie Haisch
have.  I hope you all get over it. You think that your theory(ies) has "the
answer." Fair enough, but I confidently believe that you are going in the
wrong direction. Read. Study. Experiment. Think.  That's my advice.

> I was at one of his lectures.  It
> was dull boring.  He went on and on about conspirsices.

Dear Frank, to be frank with you, this is baloney. Go back and read the
transcribed lecture in IE.

> "Forget the 
> conspircies, show me your stuff." I thought.

Yes "you thought" -- but you do not read...
> 
> Frank Znidarsic

Best wishes,

Gene

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  1 11:51:59 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
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Subject: RE: The Correas - Part 4 of 4
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Hi Gene.

Thanks for the article, but I feel you should listen to some
of the criticism here. I've read thru the website, and frankly
the rhetoric is very distracting from the work. It's not surprising
that bad VC is being attracted to this. Perhaps it would go
a ways towards improving the situation if you could post an
experiment here on vortex that demonstrates some anomaly,
without the efflusive verbiage??? Think Jack Webb from Dragnet...
Just the facts. No doubt we'd all learn from the resulting
experimentation.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Eugene F. Mallove [mailto:editor infinite-energy.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 12:30 PM
To: vortex l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Correas - Part 4 of 4


On 5/31/02 4:42 PM, "FZNIDARSIC aol.com" <FZNIDARSIC@aol.com> wrote:

> I'm into alternate energy but I do not understand why Mallove is so
posessed
> by the Correas.

Because their work is *copiously experimentally based* and I have  verified
enough of it to my own personal satisfaction. There needs to be some
alternative to the obviously false special and general relativity theories.
And, there is evident need to explain *highly anomalous* phenomena connected
with electroscopes and Faraday cages -- IF one examines the data.
Furthermore, work by a corporate group  concerning PAGD, which I am not at
liberty to discuss, is going in a very encouraging direction. Finally, I am
persuaded that a number of inventions that I have personally witnessed and
tested for possible flaws (NOT a complete vetting, but quite adequate for
these purposes) are real.


> They speak goppley goop.

No, they do not. Perhaps you lack the skill to understand their work, but
more likely, you have not studied their experiments and nor have you made
any significant effort. Also, you are suffering from your own peculiar form
of paradigm paralysis -- similar to the one Hal Puthoff and Bernie Haisch
have.  I hope you all get over it. You think that your theory(ies) has "the
answer." Fair enough, but I confidently believe that you are going in the
wrong direction. Read. Study. Experiment. Think.  That's my advice.

> I was at one of his lectures.  It
> was dull boring.  He went on and on about conspirsices.

Dear Frank, to be frank with you, this is baloney. Go back and read the
transcribed lecture in IE.

> "Forget the
> conspircies, show me your stuff." I thought.

Yes "you thought" -- but you do not read...
>
> Frank Znidarsic

Best wishes,

Gene


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  2 00:50:40 2002
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Subject: Re: quadrupolar electromagnetic wave
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
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Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 11:46:40 +0400
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Horace,

Thank you very much for the information. I want to do the experiment but an mw expert should help on thia. I never worked with magnetrons and klystrons tubes and also mw range semiconductors. 

As a side topic, as GW's carry energy and atomic structures can stimulate them energy exchange trough GW could be possible. Cooling via GW's may explain S. Godin's SEG experiment where there was observed temperature drop in environment and excess energy output from the device. Actually we just dont know whether GW interactions obey statistical rules therefore 2'nd law of thermodynamics. 

Using analogy of EM waves, one can assume that ordinary matter in normal state(non BEC)
could emit and exchange non coherent gravitasional radiation similar to black body radiation. So if there is a mechanism to force matter to macroscopic state for gravitational radiation, even simple as polarization, very rich new class of phenomena can be seen. I think many paranormal phenomena could be explained by gravity waves. 

Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
[snip]
> 
> Now for my comments.
> 
> >From the above information, it appears that, though it may well be that
> unshieldable "gravitational" type radiation might be achieved by use of
> multipole radiation, useful for communications, the photons involved still
> have the high energy to momentum ratio of c that plagues photon rocket
> design, thus do not at first glance seem to have the hoped for potential
> for propulsion applications.  However, if the radiation can be used to
> produce a projected "static near field" upon a distant object, then it
> might be used to create a momentum transfer beam that escapes the c = E/p
> ratio problem.
> 
> To answer your question about how to generate quadrupole radiation, it
> appears that accelerating (oscillating) multipoles is the way to do it.
> Multipoles can consist of combinations of electrostatic and/or magnetic
> dipoles.  Oscillating multipoles can be simulated by (electrostic) dipole
> and (magnetic) loop antenna combinations containing oscillating currents.
> I am no electrodynamicist, so it would of course be good to get a
> professional opinion on this.  Just trying to be as helpful as possible.
> 
[snip]
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  2 01:46:25 2002
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Subject: Technology Classification
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
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Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 12:43:46 +0400
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Hi,

In our world where nations committing crime and find approval (i.e.
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=3618&Cr=middle&Cr1=east)
every new technology and scientific discovery is subject to classification.
For example assume a botanist discover or design a plant which can grow
variety on surfaces and fast and can resist unfavorable conditions. A very
nice discovery and can be helpful a bit to people. Mee1itary can also profit
from this discovery as camouflage purpose then it wish to use it exclusively.
Then the discovery is classified. Next example is a undetectable/untracable and
working everywhere a wireless communication technology. This is the actual topic.

Regards, hamdi ucar



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  2 13:59:50 2002
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From: Patrick Dowland <patrick_dowland yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:  The Correas - Part 4 of 4
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Keith Nagel wrote:

 
> It's not surprising that bad VC is being attracted to
> this. Perhaps it would go a ways towards improving 
> the situation if you could post an experiment here 
> on vortex that demonstrates some anomaly,
> without the efflusive verbiage??? 
> Think Jack Webb from Dragnet...
> Just the facts. No doubt we'd all learn from the
> resulting experimentation.

Jeez, man, the guy just handed you a silver spoon,
and now you also want him to prechew your food?
If you're so eager to learn, do your own work.
Just read the monographs, all the experiments are 
in there.  

Some of you people on this list seem to me like you
have never been able to achieve anything -- not 
that you don't have the skills, it's the passion you
don't have.  And this makes you hate
anybody who has the passion, and you can't wait to
see him drown in the same mud that you are in.
You do everything you can to belitle and isolate
such people and make them look ridiculous, them and their seriousness
and their journey.  Maybe 
that's exactly why you're on this list, to keep
each other company. It reminds me of my uncle George,
God bless his soul.  An upstanding citizen he was, 
but couldn't abide anybody straining for more than 
the ordinary.

And what is VC, when you say that bad VC is being
attracted to this?  Viet Cong?


Cheers,

Patrick


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  2 18:48:56 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
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Subject: RE: The Correas - Part 4 of 4
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 21:57:19 -0400
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Hi Patrick.

My my, we seem to have some issues...

Sadly, I see no silver spoon. Just a lot of
philosophy. I'm asking for Gene to post an experiment
here. He's studied the Correa material in some depth,
I presume. So he's best qualified to judge what's the
most compelling example of their new science. The general
idea is that he posts it, we do it, and see
what's what. What do I bring to the table? A well
equipped lab, a digital camera, a few hours to
donate and a desire to learn. And yourself?

K.

PS: VC = venture capitalists. It's those funny people whom
you get money from to do your art. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Dowland [mailto:patrick_dowland yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 4:57 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Correas - Part 4 of 4



Keith Nagel wrote:

 
> It's not surprising that bad VC is being attracted to
> this. Perhaps it would go a ways towards improving 
> the situation if you could post an experiment here 
> on vortex that demonstrates some anomaly,
> without the efflusive verbiage??? 
> Think Jack Webb from Dragnet...
> Just the facts. No doubt we'd all learn from the
> resulting experimentation.

Jeez, man, the guy just handed you a silver spoon,
and now you also want him to prechew your food?
If you're so eager to learn, do your own work.
Just read the monographs, all the experiments are 
in there.  

Some of you people on this list seem to me like you
have never been able to achieve anything -- not 
that you don't have the skills, it's the passion you
don't have.  And this makes you hate
anybody who has the passion, and you can't wait to
see him drown in the same mud that you are in.
You do everything you can to belitle and isolate
such people and make them look ridiculous, them and their seriousness
and their journey.  Maybe 
that's exactly why you're on this list, to keep
each other company. It reminds me of my uncle George,
God bless his soul.  An upstanding citizen he was, 
but couldn't abide anybody straining for more than 
the ordinary.

And what is VC, when you say that bad VC is being
attracted to this?  Viet Cong?


Cheers,

Patrick


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  2 19:54:12 2002
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Subject: Re: The Correas - Part 4 of 4
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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On 6/1/02 12:02 PM, "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net> wrote:


Keith,

> Hi Gene.
> 
> Thanks for the article, but I feel you should listen to some
> of the criticism here.

I do listen to it, but when it is uninformed, it needs a firm reply.  I do
not view Vortex as a a particularly good discussion group for Aetherometry
-- although maybe I'll be proved wrong on that. I think many of the people
on this forum have their own interests and pet ideas and projects unrelated
to such a direction, which is fine.  Also, I sure do not have the time to
engage in lengthy e-mail discussions. My Opus Magnum that was posted was a
one-shot deal that had been promised long ago.

>I've read thru the website, and frankly
> the rhetoric is very distracting from the work.

Oh, please ... you can screen it out if you try!


>It's not surprising
> that bad VC is being attracted to this.

The VC community is totally brain dead as to new energy. It isn't worth
asking, no matter what you show or say to VC's.  Other types of investors
must be sought, and they are there if you look hard enough.


> Perhaps it would go
> a ways towards improving the situation if you could post an
> experiment here on vortex that demonstrates some anomaly,
> without the effusive verbiage???

Below is a capsule of the Reich-Einstein experiment, taken from my editorial
in Infinite Energy, Issue #41. That is a good starting point. If someone is
unwilling to do such careful testing with simple apparatus, they cannot
legitimately criticize Aetherometry. This experiment, offered to Einstein in
1941 and treated by him precisely as the hot fusioneers treated cold fusion
calorimetry, is at the root of many of our theoretical problems today.  But
there is much more, so I highly recommend getting at least THOSE
Aetherometry modules with experiments that I have characterized in my
outline.  

Here is what I wrote, in part, in my editorial in Infinite Energy #41:

"...Concerning the ³latent heat² alluded to above, the Correas attribute to
it precisely the same properties that meteorologists do, or that
thermodynamicists attribute to the intrinsic energy of a molecule, except
that they view the complex of manifestations of latent heat as a
non-electric form of radiant aether energy that exists either bound to mass
in an ³anti-gravitokinetic² relation or in massfree form.  This massfree
aspect may have profound cosmological implications.

Now, if the HYBORAC Stirling engine experiments fail to move you to study
aether physics, and if you want to see for yourself how profoundly
misdirected modern physics may be, do this, as I did last spring. Carry out
a minimalist Reich-Einstein experiment. If nothing else, it¹s a quick way to
prove that you are a better experimentalist than ³gedanken experiment
Albert² ever was: 

Get yourself at least two identical batch-calibrated mercury thermometers
(range 0°C to 50°C, with 0.05°C divisions).  Confirm that the thermometers
read the same value within say ±0.025 °C, by having their bulbs touching as
the two thermometers rest side-by-side, suspended in air or lying on a
uniform surface. I recommend using the exemplary services of the Miller &
Weber, Inc., precision thermometer company (1637 George Street, Ridgewood,
NY 11385, Ph: 718-821-7110). The thermometers I used were designated
³T-3400s/50C1²and were 24-inches long, total immersion, yellow back, and
mercury filled.

Next, have your local sheet metal fabricator make you a galvanized metal
cubical container (say 8² on edge). This is your Faraday cage, which can be
made air tight if you wish, but that is not very important. Then in a
darkened room, perhaps a section of a cool basement and  distant from walls
or active heating devices,   conduct a week-long experiment‹or longer if you
have the patience.  Hang one thermometer from the ceiling, with nylon cord
tied or taped to its top, such that the mercury bulb is about at mid-room
height (e.g. three feet from the floor). Affix the other thermometer just
over the center of the top of the metal cube. Begin by taping a 2² length of
0.5² PVC plastic pipe to the metal surface‹orienting the tube vertically.
Use  black electrical tape wrapped around the thermometer just above its
mercury bulb, to make a support plug for the thermometer. When the
thermometer is inserted into the vertical PVC tube (or more conveniently
perhaps into a snap-on PVC union coupling), the bottom of the thermometer
bulb should hover 1 to 2 centimeters above the top surface of the metal cube
Faraday cage.  

Now you are ready to hang this contraption from the ceiling with four tough
strands of nylon fishline (remember, you are not a dumb fish you are looking
for evidence of the aether!) that can support the cube from its bottom like
a net.  The four cords should come together above the center of the Faraday
cage; the top surface of the cage should be level with the  horizontal
plane; and the mercury bulb of the thermometer should be at the same height
as the nearby air-suspended thermometer.  The Faraday cage should be
reasonably close to the air-suspended thermometer‹say one to two feet away.

Now, everyone should suspect that in the relatively still air of a darkened
room,  after the equipment has thermally equilibrated, one expects that two
nearby mercury thermometers, with or without a Faraday cage under one of
them, should read the same. Not so! I found a consistent, easily measured
elevation of the temperature read by the Faraday cage thermometer over the
air-suspended thermometer.  The two thermometers differed‹ranging from about
0.05°C to over 0.6°C, with an average elevation of the Faraday thermometer
between 0.1 and 0.2 °C.  See the accompanying graph of this data.

I performed several other experiments with this apparatus, but these are too
involved to describe at this time.  There is an apparent diurnal variation
in To-T, which critics might try to pass off as some evidence of blackbody
absorption differences, etc. that might be affecting the measurement.   On
that theory, one might have expected some negative To-T values, but there
were none during that period.  For now, I defer to the experts in performing
the Reich-Einstein experiment repetition, the Correas, in their several
references quoted earlier.   In particular, their experiments with both
white and black ORACs (enhanced Faraday cages) out of doors and in the shade
show convincingly that some other factor is heating the interior of the
Faraday cages and the heat is then percolating to and through the top.  If
this experiment is what it appears to be, as they say, ³we are not in
Kansas²‹far from it."

The Correas performed a much more extensive experiment, reported in their
monograph AS2-05.  Recall the summary I gave, in part:

AS2-05    The thermal anomaly in ORACs and the Reich-Einstein experiment:
implications for blackbody theory
__________________

This was my point of entry into hands-on experiments with Faraday cages and
calibrated, 0.05 deg division mercury thermometers.  After the Correas sent
me their paper to be published in IE (Ref.7), which is part of this
monograph, a new world opened up.  There is absolutely no doubt in my mind
that Einstein's reaction to Reich's observed thermal anomalies connected
with Faraday cages, was indeed one of the biggest blunders in the history of
science. 

*EXPERIMENT: Reproduction of the indoor Reich-Einstein experiment.
Experimental verification of the thermal anomaly reported by Reich.
Demonstration of how it can be "analytically and experimentally separated
from the effect of convection air currents."
*EXPERIMENTS: A series of outdoor experiments with black and white ORACS,
conducted both in the shade and under full solar exposure.




> Think Jack Webb from Dragnet...

Think Experiment.   Just do it.

> Just the facts. No doubt we'd all learn from the resulting
> experimentation.

We shall see.
> 
> K.

Gene Mallove
www.infinite-energy.com

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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, "Mike Carrell" <mikec@snip.net>
Subject: RE: The Correas - Part 4 of 4
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 23:08:54 -0400
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Hi Mike and All.

Mike writes:
>So what Keith seems to want is for Gene to post on vortex a kitchen table
>experiment that all can do to verify for themselves.

Yes, exactly. Thanks.

>I have visited the Correas -- before Gene did -- and wrote the articles on
>their work which he published in IE. The experiments with the Orgone
>accumulators are quite simple -- deceptively so -- and are subject to
subtle
>interpretation. Carelessly done, you will see nothing. The PAGD experiment
I
>have seen and wrote about. It, too is deceptively simple and more than one
>person has tried unsuccessfully to duplicate it.

Hmmm... That's unfortunate. Are the failures documented anywhere???

>You see, Keith, doing this work requires knowledge which is both broad and
>deep and requires significant effort to make it "simple" to do.

Agreed. What's done here on V. is generally just replication.

>Why not try making a transistor in your lab? It, too, is quite simple and
>there are lots of them around to prove their existence. After all, the
original team saw the effect with a bit of crystal and some pointed wires.

Well, if I wanted to convince someone I had a new technology called
transistor, I'd explain that building one is tricky but that you could
see an anomalous effect by jamming a wire into a galena crystal. The
resulting rectifier I would then explain in terms of transistor theory.
In fact, the "hook" would be a cystal radio set project (grin).

K.

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Subject: RE: The Correas - Part 4 of 4
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Hi Gene.

Thanks much for the experiment post. I'll respond below...

>>I've read thru the website, and frankly
>> the rhetoric is very distracting from the work.

>Oh, please ... you can screen it out if you try!

Yes, of course I can. But I'm suggesting that because
it's there, it puts off many potential "customers".

>The VC community is totally brain dead as to new energy. It isn't worth
>asking, no matter what you show or say to VC's.  Other types of investors
>must be sought, and they are there if you look hard enough.

Yes, these folks are interested in turning a buck plain and
simple, so research type projects are a hard sell.

>Below is a capsule of the Reich-Einstein experiment, taken from my
editorial
>in Infinite Energy, Issue #41. That is a good starting point. If someone is
>unwilling to do such careful testing with simple apparatus, they cannot
>legitimately criticize Aetherometry. This experiment, offered to Einstein
in
>1941 and treated by him precisely as the hot fusioneers treated cold fusion
>calorimetry, is at the root of many of our theoretical problems today.  But
>there is much more, so I highly recommend getting at least THOSE
>Aetherometry modules with experiments that I have characterized in my
>outline.

Excellent! I'll study the post tonight and write back tomorrow. In the
meantime, maybe you can scrounge up Einsteins response to this
experiment. One experiment is enough, I think, so I'll hold off
on the modules.

K.

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--- "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
wrote:
> On 6/1/02 12:02 PM, "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Keith,
> 
> > Hi Gene.
> > 
> > Thanks for the article, but I feel you should
> listen to some
> > of the criticism here.
> 
> I do listen to it, but when it is uninformed, it
> needs a firm reply.  I do
> not view Vortex as a a particularly good discussion
> group for Aetherometry
> -- although maybe I'll be proved wrong on that. I
> think many of the people
> on this forum have their own interests and pet ideas
> and projects unrelated
> to such a direction, which is fine.  Also, I sure do
> not have the time to
> engage in lengthy e-mail discussions. My Opus Magnum
> that was posted was a
> one-shot deal that had been promised long ago.
> 
> >I've read thru the website, and frankly
> > the rhetoric is very distracting from the work.
> 
> Oh, please ... you can screen it out if you try!
Geez, I guess it aint so simple as the negative
resistance of a neon discharge is it? totally complex
stuff here, out of my league of nations. However since
you are on the heat banger issue, what about heating
up ceramic 8 ferrite by alternator resonance, that
kind of heat seems abnormal. Can I easily use Pyrex
beakers of water and thermometers to make any possible
sensible corelations, or is that a debate that also
goes on forever? HDN

=====
Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  3 09:09:54 2002
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From: BVicknair bjservices.com
Subject: Taplin lithium, one of the best kept secrets
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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I have verified the power increase with a G-Tek meter!
http://www.gtechpro.com It works so well that I spend quit of bit time
trying to improve the lithium delivery scheme. Why and how it works not
sure. bv


Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>But several truck fleets do use the Taplin et al methodology and
>apparently profit from it in greater mpg and cleaner exhaust.  Unlikely as
>it seems, there could be some mistakes in these systems, but their evident
>remarkable pollution abatement characteristics have merit in their own
right.

If the process abates pollution or cleans the engine it probably improves
gas mileage as well.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  3 10:27:22 2002
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Subject: Reich experiment unconvincing
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Eugene F. Mallove described "a minimalist Reich-Einstein experiment:"

>Get yourself at least two identical batch-calibrated mercury thermometers 
>(range 0°C to 50°C, with 0.05°C divisions).  Confirm that the thermometers 
>read the same value within say ±0.025 °C, by having their bulbs touching 
>as the two thermometers rest side-by-side, suspended in air or lying on a 
>uniform surface. . . .

>Next, have your local sheet metal fabricator make you a galvanized metal 
>cubical container (say 8² on edge). This is your Faraday cage, which can 
>be made air tight if you wish, but that is not very important. . . .

While investigating the Perkins-Pope machine, I did numerous similar tests 
with various thermometers and thermistors, in different rooms, some with 
lights and some without. I found temperature differences much larger than 
the maximum described here, 0.6 deg C. I expect you would find a similar 
temperature difference with a Faraday cage, a block of wood, or a pillow, 
or sometimes with no object at all, for no discernible reason. I do not 
know whether Reich, Correa or Mallove performed such control experiments, 
but given the random temperature differences I observed even in the 
complete absence of objects it would be difficult to define a good control 
experiment. I concluded that 0.6 or 2.0 deg C temperature differences in 
room air are noise level disturbances that probably have a prosaic explanation.

In a chamber the size of a room it is impossible to achieve controlled 
temperature observations. The observer himself causes major differences in 
air flow and temperature. This was observed by the Wright brothers in the 
1901 wind tunnel tests. The wind tunnel was a 6' long box with a fan, 
baffles, the sample airfoil mounted in two-dimensional balance scale (with 
a glass window on top to read the scales), and the exhaust at the open back 
end of the box. The Wrights discovered that the placement of furniture 
around the room and the position they stood in while reading the data 
affected the instrument performance. They finally marked the position of 
all furniture and the place on the floor where the observer stood to reduce 
random variation. In other words, the minute perturbations of air being 
sucked in by the fan, or the resistance of air moving out of the box, was 
detectable using the balance scale made of hacksaw blades, bicycle spokes 
and scraps of metal, put together like a house of cards. See:

http://www.wrightexperience.com/edu/tunnel/index.htm

The Wrights were computing the lift : drag coefficient to three significant 
digits.

- Jed

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Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 12:50:36 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Taplin lithium, one of the best kept secrets
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BVicknair wrote:

>I have verified the power increase with a G-Tek meter!
>http://www.gtechpro.com It works so well that I spend quit of bit time
>trying to improve the lithium delivery scheme. Why and how it works not 
>sure. bv

I doubt anyone knows. I wrote earlier:

>If the process abates pollution or cleans the engine it probably improves
>gas mileage as well.

I did not mean to rule out the possibility that the Taplin system actually 
produces energy, the way CF does. However, if it abates pollution it might 
simply be enhancing efficiency. It would be very difficult to separate the 
two effects with a 5% performance enhancement. If performance improved 50% 
or 100%, it would much easier to verify excess energy.

- Jed

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Subject: RE: The Correas - Part 4 of 4
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Hi Gene.

OK, I've had a little time to think about the experiment.

What I gather from the writeup is that the galvanized box is
the detector of the anomalous something. The detector converts
the something to heat, which warms the box. The thermometer
then measures the air over the box which is heated by the warm
box. Do I understand this correctly???

I've done differential calorimetry before, and my first thought
about the design is that what's needed is a control which is
more like the active element in it's thermal properties, yet
is insensitive to the "something" being detected. Hanging the
thermometer in the air may be good enough but remember this
experiment is "the convincer" and needs to be rock solid.
As you say, if the effect were due simply to the extra thermal
mass you might expect to see temps below the control, which
you say you experimentally did not see. That's certainly a positive
sign.

Lets talk a bit about the nature of the detector. Is the volume
of space inside the box being heated, or the box itself? Has it
been found that the material which composes the box is important,
other than that it be a conductor? If we can come up with a better
control that would certainly make the resulting test more
compelling.

K.


Get yourself at least two identical batch-calibrated mercury thermometers
(range 0°C to 50°C, with 0.05°C divisions).  Confirm that the thermometers
read the same value within say ±0.025 °C, by having their bulbs touching as
the two thermometers rest side-by-side, suspended in air or lying on a
uniform surface. I recommend using the exemplary services of the Miller &
Weber, Inc., precision thermometer company (1637 George Street, Ridgewood,
NY 11385, Ph: 718-821-7110). The thermometers I used were designated
³T-3400s/50C1²and were 24-inches long, total immersion, yellow back, and
mercury filled.

Next, have your local sheet metal fabricator make you a galvanized metal
cubical container (say 8² on edge). This is your Faraday cage, which can be
made air tight if you wish, but that is not very important. Then in a
darkened room, perhaps a section of a cool basement and  distant from walls
or active heating devices,   conduct a week-long experiment‹or longer if you
have the patience.  Hang one thermometer from the ceiling, with nylon cord
tied or taped to its top, such that the mercury bulb is about at mid-room
height (e.g. three feet from the floor). Affix the other thermometer just
over the center of the top of the metal cube. Begin by taping a 2² length of
0.5² PVC plastic pipe to the metal surface‹orienting the tube vertically.
Use  black electrical tape wrapped around the thermometer just above its
mercury bulb, to make a support plug for the thermometer. When the
thermometer is inserted into the vertical PVC tube (or more conveniently
perhaps into a snap-on PVC union coupling), the bottom of the thermometer
bulb should hover 1 to 2 centimeters above the top surface of the metal cube
Faraday cage.

Now you are ready to hang this contraption from the ceiling with four tough
strands of nylon fishline (remember, you are not a dumb fish you are looking
for evidence of the aether!) that can support the cube from its bottom like
a net.  The four cords should come together above the center of the Faraday
cage; the top surface of the cage should be level with the  horizontal
plane; and the mercury bulb of the thermometer should be at the same height
as the nearby air-suspended thermometer.  The Faraday cage should be
reasonably close to the air-suspended thermometer‹say one to two feet away.

Now, everyone should suspect that in the relatively still air of a darkened
room,  after the equipment has thermally equilibrated, one expects that two
nearby mercury thermometers, with or without a Faraday cage under one of
them, should read the same. Not so! I found a consistent, easily measured
elevation of the temperature read by the Faraday cage thermometer over the
air-suspended thermometer.  The two thermometers differed‹ranging from about
0.05°C to over 0.6°C, with an average elevation of the Faraday thermometer
between 0.1 and 0.2 °C.  See the accompanying graph of this data.

I performed several other experiments with this apparatus, but these are too
involved to describe at this time.  There is an apparent diurnal variation
in To-T, which critics might try to pass off as some evidence of blackbody
absorption differences, etc. that might be affecting the measurement.   On
that theory, one might have expected some negative To-T values, but there
were none during that period.  For now, I defer to the experts in performing
the Reich-Einstein experiment repetition, the Correas, in their several
references quoted earlier.   In particular, their experiments with both
white and black ORACs (enhanced Faraday cages) out of doors and in the shade
show convincingly that some other factor is heating the interior of the
Faraday cages and the heat is then percolating to and through the top.  If
this experiment is what it appears to be, as they say, ³we are not in
Kansas²‹far from it."

The Correas performed a much more extensive experiment, reported in their
monograph AS2-05.  Recall the summary I gave, in part:

AS2-05    The thermal anomaly in ORACs and the Reich-Einstein experiment:
implications for blackbody theory
__________________

This was my point of entry into hands-on experiments with Faraday cages and
calibrated, 0.05 deg division mercury thermometers.  After the Correas sent
me their paper to be published in IE (Ref.7), which is part of this
monograph, a new world opened up.  There is absolutely no doubt in my mind
that Einstein's reaction to Reich's observed thermal anomalies connected
with Faraday cages, was indeed one of the biggest blunders in the history of
science.

*EXPERIMENT: Reproduction of the indoor Reich-Einstein experiment.
Experimental verification of the thermal anomaly reported by Reich.
Demonstration of how it can be "analytically and experimentally separated
from the effect of convection air currents."
*EXPERIMENTS: A series of outdoor experiments with black and white ORACS,
conducted both in the shade and under full solar exposure.




> Think Jack Webb from Dragnet...

Think Experiment.   Just do it.

> Just the facts. No doubt we'd all learn from the resulting
> experimentation.

We shall see.
>
> K.

Gene Mallove
www.infinite-energy.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  3 11:12:27 2002
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Subject: Global Warming.
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 14:21:30 -0400
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Hi All.

Check out the latest report from the EPA concerning
global warming.

http://www.epa.gov/globalwarming/publications/car/

Here's an impact statement.

http://www.usgcrp.gov/usgcrp/nacc/thirdnatcom/chapter6toc.htm

Seems the Bush admin is finally coming to grips with
the fact that, yes, we ARE causing changes to the
environment and that fossil fuel use is the cause.
Gee, that's a surprise. But of course, they still aren't
going to do anything about it... 

K.


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While I agree with Jed that these small temperature differences are in the range
of random noise, I must caution that such measurements can not be made using a
thermistor.  Thermistors generate a small amount of heat which changes their
temperature depending on the convection currents with the environment.  Only a
thermocouple or bulb thermometer are useful for such measurements.

Ed

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Eugene F. Mallove described "a minimalist Reich-Einstein experiment:"
>
> >Get yourself at least two identical batch-calibrated mercury thermometers
> >(range 0°C to 50°C, with 0.05°C divisions).  Confirm that the thermometers
> >read the same value within say ±0.025 °C, by having their bulbs touching
> >as the two thermometers rest side-by-side, suspended in air or lying on a
> >uniform surface. . . .
>
> >Next, have your local sheet metal fabricator make you a galvanized metal
> >cubical container (say 82 on edge). This is your Faraday cage, which can
> >be made air tight if you wish, but that is not very important. . . .
>
> While investigating the Perkins-Pope machine, I did numerous similar tests
> with various thermometers and thermistors, in different rooms, some with
> lights and some without. I found temperature differences much larger than
> the maximum described here, 0.6 deg C. I expect you would find a similar
> temperature difference with a Faraday cage, a block of wood, or a pillow,
> or sometimes with no object at all, for no discernible reason. I do not
> know whether Reich, Correa or Mallove performed such control experiments,
> but given the random temperature differences I observed even in the
> complete absence of objects it would be difficult to define a good control
> experiment. I concluded that 0.6 or 2.0 deg C temperature differences in
> room air are noise level disturbances that probably have a prosaic explanation.
>
> In a chamber the size of a room it is impossible to achieve controlled
> temperature observations. The observer himself causes major differences in
> air flow and temperature. This was observed by the Wright brothers in the
> 1901 wind tunnel tests. The wind tunnel was a 6' long box with a fan,
> baffles, the sample airfoil mounted in two-dimensional balance scale (with
> a glass window on top to read the scales), and the exhaust at the open back
> end of the box. The Wrights discovered that the placement of furniture
> around the room and the position they stood in while reading the data
> affected the instrument performance. They finally marked the position of
> all furniture and the place on the floor where the observer stood to reduce
> random variation. In other words, the minute perturbations of air being
> sucked in by the fan, or the resistance of air moving out of the box, was
> detectable using the balance scale made of hacksaw blades, bicycle spokes
> and scraps of metal, put together like a house of cards. See:
>
> http://www.wrightexperience.com/edu/tunnel/index.htm
>
> The Wrights were computing the lift : drag coefficient to three significant
> digits.
>
> - Jed

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  3 12:48:48 2002
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Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 15:47:08 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Global Warming.
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The Administration now predicts extreme changes, yet it proposes to do 
nothing substantial to prevent them. This is folly on a breathtaking scale, 
seldom equaled in history. See Barbara Tuchman's masterful account, "The 
March of Folly, from Troy to Vietnam," (Alfred A. Knopf, 1984). She defines 
political folly and gives numerous examples, including environmental ones. 
Her definition of "folly" is interesting:

"To qualify as folly . . . The policy adapted must meet three criteria: it 
must have been perceived as counter-productive in its own time, not merely 
by hindsight . . . A feasible alternative course of action must have been 
available. To remove the problem from personality, a third criterion must 
be that the policy in question should be that of a group not an individual 
ruler, and should persist beyond any one political lifetime."

In the epilogue she writes:

"Rational thought clearly counseled the Trojans to suspect a trick when 
they woke to find the entire Greek army had vanished, leaving only a 
strange and monstrous prodigy beneath their walls. Rational procedure would 
have been, at the least, to test the Horse for concealed enemies as they 
were urgently advised to do . . .  by Laocoon and Cassandra. That 
alternative was present and available yet discarded in favor of 
self-destruction.

In the case of the [Renaissance] Popes, reason was perhaps less accessible. 
They were so imbued by the rampant greed and grab and uninhibited 
self-gratification of their time that a rational response to the needs of 
their constituency was almost beyond their scope. It would have required a 
culture of different values. One might suppose that an ordinary instinct of 
self-preservation would have taken notice of the rising dissatisfaction 
lapping like floodwater at their feet, but their view of the Papacy was 
temporal and secular, and they were too immersed in princely wars and in 
private consumption and display to take alarm at the intangible of 
discontent. The Papacy's folly lay not so much in being irrational as in 
being totally estranged from its appointed task." (p. 380)

That is how I would describe the Wall Street elite in 1929 and 1999, and of 
course our present environmental and energy policies.

Here are two views of global warming, from today's New York Times:

"'The Bush administration now admits that global warming will change 
America's most unique wild places and wildlife forever,' said Mark Van 
Putten, the president of the National Wildlife Federation, a private 
environmental group. 'How can it acknowledge global warming is a disaster 
in the making and then refuse to help solve the problem, especially when 
solutions are so clear?'"

That fits criteria #1 and 2 above.

Here are the Trojans, protesting Cassandra. It isn't enough that we blunder 
into disaster. We must also attack and gag people who warn us what we are 
doing to ourselves:

"Dr. Russell O. Jones, a senior economist for the American Petroleum 
Institute who wrote a letter to the Environmental Protection Agency a year 
ago seeking to purge projections of specific environmental impacts from the 
report, said it was 'frustrating' to see that they remained.

'Adding the caveats is useful, but the results are still as meaningless,' 
Dr. Jones said."

To me, what was perhaps most ironic about the global warming debate is that 
even if the fossil fuel industry is correct, and global warming does not 
exist or it is not caused by human activity, we should get rid fossil fuel 
anyway, because it is so expensive, inconvenient and polluting. The 
industrialists who fight to prevent this would benefit from it most! 
Perhaps they and their right-wing supporters would see this more clearly, 
and be more willing to develop alternative energy, if they were not engaged 
in an ideology battle about global warming. This is a good example of 
cutting off your nose to spite your face. It reminds me of a recent 
hard-core anti-Russian policy victory in Pentagon. The Russians want to 
destroy thousands of small tactical nuclear weapons (1 or 2 kiloton bombs). 
The U.S. was poised to help pay for this under the Nunn-Lugar act, but 
hard-liners gutted one-third of the funding recently, forcing the Russians 
to store the weapons instead, in poorly defended facilities. The hardliners 
say this is because the Russians have lied about their chemical and 
biological weapons. Jon Wolfsthal of the Carnegie Endowment charactorized 
this policy as follows: "We're saying: 'Because we don't think you've 
declared everything that you've got, we're not going to help you destroy 
everything we know you have.' " See:

http://thenation.com/failsafe/index.mhtml?bid=2&pid=64

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  3 13:18:53 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Reich experiment unconvincing
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>While I agree with Jed that these small temperature differences are in the 
>range of random noise, I must caution that such measurements can not be 
>made using a thermistor.  Thermistors generate a small amount of heat 
>which changes their temperature depending on the convection currents with 
>the environment.

I mainly used an alcohol thermometer, good 0.2 deg C. It showed plenty of 
variations up to 2 degrees when I moved it from place to place and checked 
every 5 or 10 minutes.

I said these random variations "probably" have prosaic explanations. I 
meant the ones on top of the Reich Faraday cage. The variations I observed 
-- which were larger -- definitely had prosaic explanations, not difficult 
to understand. A room in an ordinary house like mine is quite impossible to 
isolate from the environment. Even an isolated storage room without an HVAC 
vent or a window is subject to readily observable outside influences. Heat 
moves in or out of the walls in neighboring rooms, and to the attic space 
above the ceiling, which is usually separated by one layer of Sheetrock. 
The sources of heat and the currents of moving air they create are 
apparent. You can see the air currents by letting smoke drift from an 
extinguished match, for example. And of course you -- the observer -- are a 
gigantic source of noise. You produce air currents by walking, opening 
doors and breathing, and 120 watts of heat from metabolism. Observing with 
remote instruments is a better idea, but still problematic. Looking for a 
subtle energy effect in an ordinary room is like trying to listen to Franz 
Schubert on the radio in a boiler factory. This is why calorimeters must be 
made small and thermally isolated from the surroundings.

Correa and Mallove addressed some of these issues, as described in the 
article. Obviously they know that walking causes air currents and 
metabolism generates heat! But based on what I did, I do not think it is 
possible to fix these problems in an ordinary room. Perhaps a sealed, 
unmanned room inside another room equipped with IMRA-style environmental 
controls would work, or a room in mineshaft, but this would cost a great 
deal of money.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  3 14:36:01 2002
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Subject: Faile's Fireballs.
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Hi Vorts,

In comm with Nick Reiter he asked me to note:
http://www.geocities.com/spfaile/HotTip.html

An exploding Al wire (& wet Si cloth) arc experiment by Sam Faile. Wow. Sam
reports creating a 4 foot (white) fireball with cap discharge. (Looks like
230 Mfd   4300 volts.) I'm not sure how many times Sam has performed this
experiment but I would imagine that he could easily be made sterile or worse
from the radiation. It "sounds" like a strong neutron emitter. Lead shields
advised.

This may be worth checking out, but very carefully. His question was, "Why
was the fireball colored white?"

Colin


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  3 14:36:41 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Taplin lithium, one of the best kept secrets
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 07:35:20 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 03 Jun 2002 12:50:36 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]

>BVicknair wrote:
>
>>I have verified the power increase with a G-Tek meter!
>>http://www.gtechpro.com It works so well that I spend quit of bit time
>>trying to improve the lithium delivery scheme. Why and how it works not 
>>sure. bv
>
>I doubt anyone knows. I wrote earlier:
>
>>If the process abates pollution or cleans the engine it probably improves
>>gas mileage as well.
>
>I did not mean to rule out the possibility that the Taplin system actually 
>produces energy, the way CF does. However, if it abates pollution it might 
[snip]
Li could be a Mills catalyst, especially in a reducing environment (i.e.
where plenty of free electrons are present). 
The first 2 ionisation energies of Li added together are 82.03 eV which
is only slightly larger than the 81.6 eV required for an energy hole
(i.e. 3 x 27.2 eV). 
Furthermore, this may go a long way toward explaining some of the CF
electrolysis results where LiOD was used. Li metal reduced at the
cathode would be available to combine with D atoms also produced at the
cathode. In fact some of the D atoms may actually have been produced on
a thin Li layer on the cathode, resulting in the close contact required
to bring about the reaction. Furthermore, the energy gap of 0.4 eV
between the actual ionisation energy, and the real energy hole, implies
that the hotter the environment, the more atoms there are with the
requisite energy to supply the difference. This would explain the
apparent improvement in output with rising temperature.
Note also that sufficiently shrunken D would fuse with Li6 yielding 2 x
He4.
(I think the cross section for the reaction D + Li7 -> 2 He4 + n is
probably considerably less than for the reaction with Li6, and with 7%
of natural Li being Li6, it may well capture almost all of the available
highly shrunken D).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  3 14:40:59 2002
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Subject: Re: Reich experiment unconvincing--"excellent points!" not criticism.
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Jed,

I usually bitch about something when I write to you, but not this time.

> Eugene F. Mallove described "a minimalist Reich-Einstein experiment:"
>
> While investigating the Perkins-Pope machine, I did numerous similar tests
> with various thermometers and thermistors, in different rooms, some with
> lights and some without. I found temperature differences much larger than
> the maximum described here, 0.6 deg C. I expect you would find a similar
> temperature difference with a Faraday cage, a block of wood, or a pillow,
> or sometimes with no object at all, for no discernible reason. I do not
> know whether Reich, Correa or Mallove performed such control experiments,
> but given the random temperature differences I observed even in the
> complete absence of objects it would be difficult to define a good control
> experiment. I concluded that 0.6 or 2.0 deg C temperature differences in
> room air are noise level disturbances that probably have a prosaic
explanation.

All excellent points in this paragraph and the one following.  By the way,
my kids have been playing with this soap bubble blowing stuff that forms
relatively "tough" bubbles.  The object is to catch them in the air on a
stick and stack them. Their tendency to persist makes them excellent
indicators of air current motion.

Jeff




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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Reich experiment unconvincing
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 18:00:38 -0400
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I'm imagining a pair of identical boxes in a ice
cooler, the active box being the galvanized metal
and the passive box being dielectric and of the same
size and mass. I suppose the thermocouples could
go in the same location, but his using of a full immersion
thermometer suggests Gene was measuring the avg temp
across the entire length of the unit? Seems like a better
place to put the sensors would be inside the boxes themselves.
Here some advice is needed from the Experts....Gene?

K.




-----Original Message-----
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 2:41 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Reich experiment unconvincing


While I agree with Jed that these small temperature differences are in the
range
of random noise, I must caution that such measurements can not be made using
a
thermistor.  Thermistors generate a small amount of heat which changes their
temperature depending on the convection currents with the environment.  Only
a
thermocouple or bulb thermometer are useful for such measurements.

Ed

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Eugene F. Mallove described "a minimalist Reich-Einstein experiment:"
>
> >Get yourself at least two identical batch-calibrated mercury thermometers
> >(range 0°C to 50°C, with 0.05°C divisions).  Confirm that the
thermometers
> >read the same value within say ±0.025 °C, by having their bulbs touching
> >as the two thermometers rest side-by-side, suspended in air or lying on a
> >uniform surface. . . .
>
> >Next, have your local sheet metal fabricator make you a galvanized metal
> >cubical container (say 82 on edge). This is your Faraday cage, which can
> >be made air tight if you wish, but that is not very important. . . .
>
> While investigating the Perkins-Pope machine, I did numerous similar tests
> with various thermometers and thermistors, in different rooms, some with
> lights and some without. I found temperature differences much larger than
> the maximum described here, 0.6 deg C. I expect you would find a similar
> temperature difference with a Faraday cage, a block of wood, or a pillow,
> or sometimes with no object at all, for no discernible reason. I do not
> know whether Reich, Correa or Mallove performed such control experiments,
> but given the random temperature differences I observed even in the
> complete absence of objects it would be difficult to define a good control
> experiment. I concluded that 0.6 or 2.0 deg C temperature differences in
> room air are noise level disturbances that probably have a prosaic
explanation.
>
> In a chamber the size of a room it is impossible to achieve controlled
> temperature observations. The observer himself causes major differences in
> air flow and temperature. This was observed by the Wright brothers in the
> 1901 wind tunnel tests. The wind tunnel was a 6' long box with a fan,
> baffles, the sample airfoil mounted in two-dimensional balance scale (with
> a glass window on top to read the scales), and the exhaust at the open
back
> end of the box. The Wrights discovered that the placement of furniture
> around the room and the position they stood in while reading the data
> affected the instrument performance. They finally marked the position of
> all furniture and the place on the floor where the observer stood to
reduce
> random variation. In other words, the minute perturbations of air being
> sucked in by the fan, or the resistance of air moving out of the box, was
> detectable using the balance scale made of hacksaw blades, bicycle spokes
> and scraps of metal, put together like a house of cards. See:
>
> http://www.wrightexperience.com/edu/tunnel/index.htm
>
> The Wrights were computing the lift : drag coefficient to three
significant
> digits.
>
> - Jed

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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Stirling engine output power
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One aspect of the Correa experiment that is particularly unclear to me is 
the performance of this Stirling engine. I read the paper in I.E. 41a few 
times but I still do not understand how much energy the authors claim the 
box is producing. I suppose the answer depends on how much energy it takes 
to keep the Stirling engine running. There is a graph of temperature versus 
RPM but I see no indication or calibration showing watts per RPM. Maybe I 
have overlooked it. Someone estimated it would take about 600 milliwatts to 
keep the motor running, and considerably more than that to start it up. It 
suddenly occurred to me just now that one report says Ken Rauen started the 
motor with the heat from the palm of his hand. How much heat is that? Very 
VERY roughly:

Total skin area human adult: 2 sq. meters
Skin area palm of my hand: 80 sq. cm (0.008 meters), 1/250 of the total 
skin area
Average waking metabolism 130 watts

The hand has more underlying blood vessels than other parts of the body I 
believe, but as a rough approximation let us assume all skin radiates the 
same amount. That would make the palm output about a half watt. Only a 
fraction of that would go into the Stirling motor. So perhaps the thing 
runs with only ~100 mW?

There have been proposals lately to drive small electronic gadgets with 
waste heat from human skin. Eric Baard wrote about this:

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/body_power_011128-1.html

The proposal to "scavenge" a few watts from walking seems 
counter-productive to me. Even a few watts add up when hiking or cranking a 
bicycle.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  3 15:11:36 2002
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Subject: Re: Taplin lithium, one of the best kept secrets
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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On 6/3/02 9:06 AM, "BVicknair bjservices.com" <BVicknair@bjservices.com>
wrote:

> I have verified the power increase with a G-Tek meter!
> http://www.gtechpro.com It works so well that I spend quit of bit time
> trying to improve the lithium delivery scheme. Why and how it works not
> sure. Bv

Taplin did, indeed, report in IE #18 improved mpg as well as the pollution
abatement features.

--Gene Mallove
> 
> 
> Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
> 
>> But several truck fleets do use the Taplin et al methodology and
>> apparently profit from it in greater mpg and cleaner exhaust.  Unlikely as
>> it seems, there could be some mistakes in these systems, but their evident
>> remarkable pollution abatement characteristics have merit in their own
> right.
> 
> If the process abates pollution or cleans the engine it probably improves
> gas mileage as well.
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  3 15:11:41 2002
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Subject: Re: Reich experiment unconvincing
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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On 6/3/02 11:41 AM, "Edmund Storms" <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> While I agree with Jed that these small temperature differences are in the
> range
> of random noise, I must caution that such measurements can not be made using a
> thermistor.  Thermistors generate a small amount of heat which changes their
> temperature depending on the convection currents with the environment.  Only a
> thermocouple or bulb thermometer are useful for such measurements.
> 
> Ed

Ed is indeed correct about the need for an Hg bulb thermometer. I would stay
away from thermocouples in this case.  The situation is complex, as one
would expect if one is investigating a possible medium (the aether) which
can permeate and affect differentially different materials. The
Reich-Einstein experiment repeat by the Correas served to repeat with better
controls, what Albert screwed up beyond recognition, which one learns when
one  reads the horrific, stupid reaction that he and Leopold Infeld
presented to Reich. It almost makes the MIT PFC looks good :)  At least the
MIT PFC knew how to do straight, unvarnished fraud. Einstein was just plain
stupid and bigoted.

- Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  3 15:11:37 2002
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Subject: Re: Reich experiment unconvincing
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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On 6/3/02 10:24 AM, "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

> While investigating the Perkins-Pope machine, I did numerous similar tests
> with various thermometers and thermistors, in different rooms, some with
> lights and some without. I found temperature differences much larger than
> the maximum described here, 0.6 deg C. I expect you would find a similar
> temperature difference with a Faraday cage, a block of wood, or a pillow,
> or sometimes with no object at all, for no discernible reason. I do not
> know whether Reich, Correa or Mallove performed such control experiments,
> but given the random temperature differences I observed even in the
> complete absence of objects it would be difficult to define a good control
> experiment. I concluded that 0.6 or 2.0 deg C temperature differences in
> room air are noise level disturbances that probably have a prosaic
> explanation.

The above is complete nonsense, as anyone performing the experiment I
described would rapidly determine. The question is not the temperature
distribution of the entire room. Of COURSE significant variations as Jed
described would be observed at the ceiling, near the floor, near a wall
etc.. That is NOT the point of the experiment described in my post, and it
is certainly not the point of what was meticulously described by the Correas
in issue #37 of IE, which Jed either cannot recall or did not read.  The
items -- the free air suspended thermometer and the Faraday cage should be
in relatively close proximity -- whether 1 or 2 feet separate did not make
much of a difference, in a few spot checks. However, the Correas did more
extensive controls and tests than I did.
   
> 
> In a chamber the size of a room it is impossible to achieve controlled
> temperature observations. The observer himself causes major differences in
> air flow and temperature.

The observer in this case makes no impact until, I would estimate, 10-15
seconds after his head nears the thermometer for reading --long enough to
read it without perturbation. The temperature can be observed and is easily
accounted for properly by not letting the sensitive thermometer time to
react. One can see the mercury in static position when one nears the
thermometer with a low light level flashlight.

Jed's criticisms of this experiment remind me so much of the nonsense from
the cold fusion skeptics, which is so comically and cosmically ironic. They
do not understand the experiment, they do not read about it carefully, and
they introduce all kinds of speculation unrelated to the question at hand.


> This was observed by the Wright brothers in the
> 1901 wind tunnel tests. The wind tunnel was a 6' long box with a fan,
> baffles, the sample airfoil mounted in two-dimensional balance scale (with
> a glass window on top to read the scales), and the exhaust at the open back
> end of the box. The Wrights discovered that the placement of furniture
> around the room and the position they stood in while reading the data
> affected the instrument performance. They finally marked the position of
> all furniture and the place on the floor where the observer stood to reduce
> random variation. In other words, the minute perturbations of air being
> sucked in by the fan, or the resistance of air moving out of the box, was
> detectable using the balance scale made of hacksaw blades, bicycle spokes
> and scraps of metal, put together like a house of cards. See:
> 
> http://www.wrightexperience.com/edu/tunnel/index.htm
> 
> The Wrights were computing the lift : drag coefficient to three significant
> digits.

The Wright brothers methodologies described above have no bearing on the
Reich-Einstein experiment.
> 
> - Jed

 - Gene Mallove
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  3 15:18:48 2002
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Subject: Re: Reich experiment unconvincing--"excellent points!" not
	criticism.
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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On 6/3/02 2:39 PM, "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com> wrote:

> All excellent points in this paragraph and the one following.  By the way,
> my kids have been playing with this soap bubble blowing stuff that forms
> relatively "tough" bubbles.  The object is to catch them in the air on a
> stick and stack them. Their tendency to persist makes them excellent
> indicators of air current motion.
> 
> Jeff

Not excellent points. Nonsense points and irrelevant to the Reich-Einstein
experiment as described.

- Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  3 16:17:42 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Reich experiment unconvincing
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>The above is complete nonsense, as anyone performing the experiment I 
>described would rapidly determine.

Anyone performing the experiment I described will see that it is not nonsense.


>The question is not the temperature distribution of the entire room. Of 
>COURSE significant variations as Jed described would be observed at the 
>ceiling, near the floor, near a wall etc..

I observed fairly persistent variations at locations no more than a meter 
apart, vertically or horizontally, at all levels. When I say "fairly 
persistent" I mean they kept reappearing, but at any given reading they 
might not be present. I assume that is because I was stirring up the air by 
entering and leaving the room, and sometimes it took more than 5 minutes to 
recover.

This was in my house and at the Perkins-Pope test facility, which are both 
particularly drafty and ill-suited for such studies. I observed ~2 deg C 
temperature differences, which were obviously caused by convection 
currents, drafts, and so on. Heat would move in or go out of the room, no 
matter how quiescent I tried to make it. If I observed 2 deg C noise, it is 
not unreasonable that in a much quieter, better suited room a person might 
see 0.6 deg C variations. I would be amazed if you could reduce these 
variations lower than that in any ordinary room. I would also be amazed if 
the variations were random instead of recurring and persistent.

The Wright's observations of the effects of furniture and human bodies on 
flowing air in a room indicate the persistence of effects caused by solid 
objects on air currents. You must an airflow in a room. The airflow is 
always large enough to be detected easily, with smoke, soap bubbles etc. It 
is impossible to stop air currents, except by moving the room to 
interstellar space and holding it close to absolute zero. The air always 
moves, and there must always be temperature variations. Air moving 
horizontally will upwell or drop below a solid object, like wind meeting a 
hill. I suppose this must cause a persistent variation in temperature above 
a solid object. It would not surprise me to learn that it is often about a 
half-degree.

I said this experiment as performed is "unconvincing." I did not say it is 
bunk and should be dismissed. There are enough unknowns and unsatisfactory 
aspects to make it unconvincing. Some sort of null with a block of wood, a 
pillow or what-have-you would help, but as I said persistent variations 
occur even in the absence of objects, presumably caused by such things as 
hot water pipes in the walls. My guess is the only way to make this 
experiment more convincing would be to either boost the temperature 
difference to something like 6 deg C (~3 sigma in my house), or put the 
whole thing in some sort of calorimeter. Unfortunately the calorimeter 
might interfere with the putative effect, since I presume most calorimeters 
act as Faraday cages.

Proving or disproving the existence of this effect is a tough problem.

Please note I did this long before Correa tested the Reich box, so I was 
not attempting to debunk Correa. Based on my results, Ed Wall and I decided 
Perkins needed a confined inlet. As soon as Wall made one, the 
Perkins-device apparent excess heat vanished.


>The items -- the free air suspended thermometer and the Faraday cage 
>should be in relatively close proximity -- whether 1 or 2 feet separate 
>did not make much of a difference, in a few spot checks. However, the 
>Correas did more extensive controls and tests than I did. [In issue #37]

And WAY better controlled that the tests I did, which is probably why the 
Delta-T temperatures he observed in adjacent locations were much smaller 
than the ones I observed. They seem to correlate with the box materials, as 
Reich suggested, but I do not the results are as clear cut and 
"irreducible" as Correa thinks. More control experiments and a much bigger 
effect with a proper calorimeter instead of guesswork and supposition would 
be more convincing.


>The observer in this case makes no impact until, I would estimate, 10-15
>seconds after his head nears the thermometer for reading --long enough  to 
>read it without perturbation.

On the other hand, the perturbation persists for quite a while, maybe a 
half hour, before things return to "normal." Normal, of course, depends on 
the time of day, season of year, whether you are running the washing 
machine and hot water is flowing through the pipes, and a hundred other 
uncontrolled and uncontrollable factors. This is why a room is a poor 
substitute for a calorimeter.


>Jed's criticisms of this experiment remind me so much of the nonsense from 
>the cold fusion skeptics . . .

I think the comparison is invalid. My criticisms are based on actual 
experiments I performed long before Correa made his claim. Ed Wall and I 
used these experiments to demonstrate a mistake in another machine that was 
thought to be over unity, but clearly was not. (At least, it wasn't when we 
tested it.) The cold fusion "skeptics" never perform experiments or refer 
to them, whereas I always do. The "skeptics" usually attack theory instead 
of experiment, whereas I would never attempt to grapple with Correa's theories.


>The Wright brothers methodologies described above have no bearing on the 
>Reich-Einstein experiment.

I see an important connection between the two. I doubt many other 
scientists after 1901 carefully investigated the effects of furniture and 
household objects on moving air currents. Wind tunnels today are engineered 
to avoid these problems, with carefully sited inlets and outlets. The 
Wright results may be the only relevant ones on record, for all I know. 
This is not the sort of thing people normally investigate. If you insist on 
using a room for a calorimeter, you must investigate this very carefully.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  3 16:36:45 2002
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Subject: Re: Reich experiment unconvincing
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I wrote:

"Based on my results, Ed Wall and I decided Perkins needed a confined 
inlet. . . ."

I should say my tests done at Ed's suggestion. Most of the credit goes to him.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: Faile's Fireballs.
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Hi Keith,

Oh yes. That "water" rocket.
http://www.dimensional.com/~hyperion/rocket.html
I think I posted that URL myself here a few months ago.

Faile's fireball sounds like it might possibly be utilized for propulsion.
Maybe that pulse is just what's needed to make the water rocket more
efficient. It must have been a rather large capacitor though. I have a few
large "line" caps kicking around here and I told my wife I was going to try
the experiment just outside, and she said, "Go ahead. What you will tell the
police when all the neighbour's windows are blown out?" So, I guess I won't
be doing it around here.. Darn. :-)

Faile said that the flash color of the fireball from only the aluminium
strip (without the water) was blue.. So why did it turn white with the
addition of the water was what he wanted to know. I think you got it right
Keith. Additional oxygen [plasma] combined with the Al plasma.

I've read from other reports about exploding wires that neutrons are
detected, but those were mere sparks compared to Faile's notebook report on
a 4 foot fireball.  I'm curious to understand what would happen if the
fibreglass cloth were soaked in deuterium instead of water.

Colin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Colin Quinney" <crquin rogers.com>
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 7:05 PM
Subject: RE: Faile's Fireballs.


> Hi Colin.
>
> You write:
> >This may be worth checking out, but very carefully. His question was,
"Why
> >was the fireball colored white?"
>
> It's the color of burning aluminum.
>
> The water really helps things along. I seem to remember
> a rocket engine patent that uses burning aluminum and
> water. Powerful stuff. Post a picture of the fireball (grin).
>
> K.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Colin Quinney [mailto:crquin rogers.com]
> Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 5:30 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Cc: Nick Reiter; cay electricspacecraft.com; George Hathaway; William A.
> Rhodes; Frederick Sparber; Doug Marett
> Subject: Faile's Fireballs.
>
>
> Hi Vorts,
>
> In comm with Nick Reiter he asked me to note:
> http://www.geocities.com/spfaile/HotTip.html
>
> An exploding Al wire (& wet Si cloth) arc experiment by Sam Faile. Wow.
Sam
> reports creating a 4 foot (white) fireball with cap discharge. (Looks like
> 230 Mfd   4300 volts.) I'm not sure how many times Sam has performed this
> experiment but I would imagine that he could easily be made sterile or
worse
> from the radiation. It "sounds" like a strong neutron emitter. Lead
shields
> advised.
>
> This may be worth checking out, but very carefully. His question was, "Why
> was the fireball colored white?"
>
> Colin



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> > All excellent points in this paragraph and the one following.  By the
way,
> > my kids have been playing with this soap bubble blowing stuff that forms
> > relatively "tough" bubbles.  The object is to catch them in the air on a
> > stick and stack them. Their tendency to persist makes them excellent
> > indicators of air current motion.
> >
> > Jeff Kooistra
>
> Not excellent points. Nonsense points and irrelevant to the Reich-Einstein
> experiment as described.
>
> - Gene Mallove

On the contrary, they remain excellent points, and they are entirely
relevant to
the "experiment" as described.  Oh, OK, I'll throw you a bone here--they're
not actually "excellent" points--they're obvious ones.

Sorry for the earlier hyperbole--it's just that I was delighted that Jed had
properly
applied lessons learned from an earlier experiment to this one, and had
cited relevant
supporting references (The Wright Bros.) in support of his point.

Jeff Kooistra

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  3 22:30:26 2002
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is it at all available for private-sctor R&D?  I'd like to pressurize a =
thyratron with it.

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>is it at all available for =
private-sctor=20
R&amp;D?&nbsp; I'd like to pressurize a thyratron with=20
it.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun  3 22:58:55 2002
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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 00:56:37 -0500
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Reich experiment unconvincing
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>While I agree with Jed that these small temperature differences are 
>in the range
>of random noise, I must caution that such measurements can not be made using a
>thermistor.  Thermistors generate a small amount of heat which changes their
>temp

Ed;

Great posting!

  You're just the man I want to talk to. There's this talk show host, 
Michael Savage www.michaelsavage.com , He has a PhD in 
ethanopharmacology. He's upset about political correctness in 
particular, and liberalism in general. Last night he was having a fit 
about what he sees as a sell out of conservatives by the Bush 
administration. Then Keith posted those two government URL's. I'm 
listening to the Laura Ingraham show she was just interviewing a 
woman who quoted Dr. Sally, I didn't catch the last name, 
Astrophysicist, of some institution associated with the Smithsonian 
who has also reviewed the evidence and says there is no creditable 
evidence of global warming.

I've been told that the Martian polar caps are receiding, which means 
that the sun is putting out more energy, which Dr. Sally believes too.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  4 01:46:18 2002
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Reich experiment unconvincing
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At 12:41 PM 6/3/2, Edmund Storms wrote:
>While I agree with Jed that these small temperature differences are in the
>range
>of random noise, I must caution that such measurements can not be made using a
>thermistor.  Thermistors generate a small amount of heat which changes their
>temperature depending on the convection currents with the environment.  Only a
>thermocouple or bulb thermometer are useful for such measurements.
>
>Ed


I certainly agree with Jed and Ed that great care must be taken in
thermometry, and feel there is much literature as well as personal
experience here on vortex to support that.   However, I feel it is not
necessarily true that thermocouples provide an improvement over
thermistors.  In fact, there is much evidence in the literature and on
sci.physics.fusion that thermocouples caused many problems in early cold
fusion experiments, including difficulties isolating them from electrical
noise, electrochemical potentials, and other effects associated with low
deg./volt ratios.  I think the more important issues are calibration and
choice of experimental controls.

It is important to note that thermistors come in various sizes and
resistances. The more common type are 10K ohm, but 100K ohm are common also
(I have a bunch on hand.)  A 100K thermistor operated at 1 volt will push
only 10^-5 watts through it.  The significance of that 10^-5 watts depends
upon the environment the thermistor is placed in.  If the thermistor is
placed or glued on a metal surface, for example, then that 10^-5 W is
rapidly diffused and plays no significant part in the temperature reading.
Futher, it is posible to measure the resistance of the thermistor in a
bridge configuration, in a manner similar to that used to balance against a
small thermocouple voltage, and to do so passing only a nominal current
through the resistor - by using amplification simimlar to that required by
thermocouples.  If the sample voltage is 10^-3 volts, then the "read" power
is only 10^-8 W.  The thermal effect can be further diminished by pulsed
reading.

It is notable that the energy from thermocouples is sometimes taken from
the environment being measured, depending on the circuitry employed.  If
the thermocouple either generates current or passes current then this
affects its local thermal environment just as current passing through a
thermistor does, but the thermal effect is not simply dependent upon
resistance, but rather on the junction dynamics. A thermocouple will pass
such current unless the amplifier used to track the thermocouple voltage
instantaneously adjusts its voltage to oppose that voltage generated by the
thermocouple.  Thermocouples are often operated as one leg of a bridge, but
if the bridge parameters are not instantaneously updated to track the
thermocoupple voltage, then temperature disturbing currents result.

Another major problem experienced in cold fusion experiments was "thermal
wicking," an effect which hinders accuracy for thermocouples, thermistors,
and bulb thermometers, but usually is worst for bulb thermometers.  This
thermal wicking effect is the tendency of the thermometer "stem" to conduct
heat to or from the environment to the site of measurement, and to store
heat and thus increase the thermal time constant of the thermometer.
Thermistors or thermocouples can (but do not necessarily) use thin wires
and thermal insulation to achieve a high stem thermal resistance and a low
stem specific heat.

I think there is no substitution for calibration, experimental control and
careful experiment design, and I expect Ed likely agrees with this.  The
choice of thermistor vs thermocouple is not always so clear cut, and I
think often ultimately might end up being based more on a matter of dollars
than anything else, though dual methods are ultimately the best when
possible.

The above comments are not meant to have any bearing on the Reich
experiment, with which I remain unfamiliar, but rather are meant to discuss
general themometry issues.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>The question is not the temperature
>distribution of the entire room. 
>

Could it be, however, the number of photons in the room absorbed by the 
suspended object?  It would seem to me that energy given off by the 
walls, a human body, or any object in the room *will* raise the 
temperature of the suspended box by *some* amount.  I wonder if painting 
the surface black changes the differential?

Terry


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Subject: Thermistors okay for some purposes
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Horace Heffner wrote:

>I certainly agree with Jed and Ed that great care must be taken in 
>thermometry, and feel there is much literature as well as personal
>experience here on vortex to support that.   However, I feel it is not
>necessarily true that thermocouples provide an improvement over
>thermistors.

I do not think that Ed meant to condemn thermistors for all purposes. As 
long as the fluid is moving and the temperature difference is much larger 
than the self-heating effect, a thermistor is fine. When measuring 
quiescent air temperature in a room, you might place the thermistor in a 
particularly quiet, dead air spot where it self heats a fraction of a 
decree. When you move it a meter away to a spot where the air is flowing it 
will show the actual temperature.

In my house there are practically no dead air spots.

- Jed

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thomas malloy wrote:

> >While I agree with Jed that these small temperature differences are
> >in the range
> >of random noise, I must caution that such measurements can not be made using a
> >thermistor.  Thermistors generate a small amount of heat which changes their
> >temp
>
> Ed;
>
> Great posting!
>
>   You're just the man I want to talk to. There's this talk show host,
> Michael Savage www.michaelsavage.com , He has a PhD in
> ethanopharmacology. He's upset about political correctness in
> particular, and liberalism in general. Last night he was having a fit
> about what he sees as a sell out of conservatives by the Bush
> administration.

I always have trouble with people who use labels such as liberal and conservative
because it depends on just which aspect of each is being discussed.  For example,
a fundamental Christian can be very conservative when it comes to abortion but
very liberal when wanting to help the poor.  Bush, for example, is neither
conservative nor liberal, but self-serving.  He will adopt whatever policy that
will give him power, but with a strong bias toward business and the oil industry.
He seems to have no trouble promising one thing but doing another.  In spite of
these obvious defects, among others, he is very popular.  This says more about the
American people than about Bush.

> Then Keith posted those two government URL's. I'm
> listening to the Laura Ingraham show she was just interviewing a
> woman who quoted Dr. Sally, I didn't catch the last name,
> Astrophysicist, of some institution associated with the Smithsonian
> who has also reviewed the evidence and says there is no creditable
> evidence of global warming.

This is obvious nonsense.  Global warming is real as anyone can plainly see and
which the government has finally and officially acknowledged recently.  The only
issue is its cause.  Three obvious causes exist; extra energy from the sun, extra
energy from the magma, and the effect of greenhouse gas.   All three play a role
with the first two causing regular cycles of warming and cooling, occurring over
many centuries.  The latter factor is becoming increasingly important now and it
is the only one over which we have any influence.  Unfortunately, we humans will
take no action because in general we are too ignorant, too self-serving and too
short-sighted.  Consequently, we all will suffer the consequences of this latest
cycle of warming, made worse by our actions.  I suggest you consider moving if you
are in a region that will be affected.  Like with most disasters, both natural and
man-made, those who survive are those who think ahead using knowledge.  You can
not save the world, but you can save yourself.

>
>
> I've been told that the Martian polar caps are receiding, which means
> that the sun is putting out more energy, which Dr. Sally believes too.

The ice (frozen CO2) caps on Mars come and go on a regular cycle consistent with
the seasons on Mars.  Also the sun's energy does fluctuate, but the amount of
energy being emitted now is not out of the normal cyclic range.

Ed

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  4 07:42:30 2002
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Subject: RE: Reich experiment unconvincing
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>Gene was measuring the avg temp across the entire length of the unit? 
>Seems like a better place to put the sensors would be inside the boxes 
>themselves.

Reich claimed that the temperature inside the box was lower than the 
surroundings. See I.E. 36, p. 18. In other words, it acts as heat pump 
moving heat from inside the box to the upper surface of the top plate. If I 
understand correctly the box as a whole also produces a net excess energy. 
It is not only a heat pump.

This is a can of worms. The only way to verify Reich's claim properly would 
be to use a calorimeter, perhaps one made of plastic that does not act as a 
Faraday cage. You cannot determine energy flows by measuring temperatures 
in open air in a room. Frankly that's a screwy, amateur idea. Years ago my 
daughter's third grade science textbook (M. Cohen et al., "Discover 
Science," (Scott, Foresmann), pp. 158 - 159) suggested they do exactly 
that; measure the air temperature above 25, 50, 100, 150 watt lightbulbs. 
The illustration shows a nice neat graph of the temperatures they suppose 
you will get, with a splendid correlation of power level and ambient air 
temperature. I tried it, and needless to say, it doesn't work. When Gene 
heard about the textbook he immediately dismissed the test as invalid, so 
I'm a little surprised he thinks this method is okay for the Reich experiment.

- Jed

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Subject: Re: Reich experiment unconvincing
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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On 6/3/02 4:16 PM, "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

> Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
> 
>> The above is complete nonsense, as anyone performing the experiment I
>> described would rapidly determine.
> 
> Anyone performing the experiment I described will see that it is not nonsense.

Stirring up the air in the room is most certainly not part of the
experiment. The experiment described by the Correas does not involve a
person wandering around in a small room.  The point of the experiment is to
note what happens to delta-T during quiescent conditions. Therefore, your
observations are not relevant to the experiment. Anyone observing such an
experiment at say 30 minute intervals will absolutely NOT see the kind of
variations you observed while moving around in a high-ceiling garage or a
home room in Georgia.  Furthermore, so as not to allow this red herring to
be taken out of context by the uninitiated, this experiment was intended by
the Correas primarily  to reconstruct the particular happenings of early
1941 at Einstein's residence and how they were then mis-interpreted, which
they most certainly were. (I'd bet quite a lot that almost no one but myself
on this forum has had the curiosity to read the 100 pages of technical
correspondence between Reich, Einstein, and Einstein's associates.) The
Reich-Einstein experiment is thus a severe limiting case of much more
provocative thermal experiments connected with ORACs -- indoor and out,
which the Correas report.
> 
> 
>> The question is not the temperature distribution of the entire room. Of
>> COURSE significant variations as Jed described would be observed at the
>> ceiling, near the floor, near a wall etc..
> 
> I observed fairly persistent variations at locations no more than a meter
> apart, vertically or horizontally, at all levels. When I say "fairly
> persistent" I mean they kept reappearing, but at any given reading they
> might not be present. I assume that is because I was stirring up the air by
> entering and leaving the room, and sometimes it took more than 5 minutes to
> recover.

Yes, that is precisely what happens when one enters and leaves a room, but
this is not the protocol of the experiment.
> 
> This was in my house and at the Perkins-Pope test facility, which are both
> particularly drafty and ill-suited for such studies. I observed ~2 deg C
> temperature differences, which were obviously caused by convection
> currents, drafts, and so on. Heat would move in or go out of the room, no
> matter how quiescent I tried to make it. If I observed 2 deg C noise, it is
> not unreasonable that in a much quieter, better suited room a person might
> see 0.6 deg C variations. I would be amazed if you could reduce these
> variations lower than that in any ordinary room.

Well, be amazed... The variations are NO WHERE NEAR WHAT YOU REPORT, period.
Movement of even 0.1 C in the the temperatures takes more time, as does
especially *delta-T*.  It does not occur as random fluctuations.  It is very
easy to verify that with the actual equipment that I described.  Thus,
delta-T measurements as a function of time during the day are of great
interest. Note well, there were no negative differentials, even in the
limited part of the experiment that I reported. Interesting, and important
to note.

> I would also be amazed if
> the variations were random instead of recurring and persistent.

People who actually carry out such experiments learn much more from them
than those, like Einstein, whose favorite hobby was gedanken experiments --
i.e. ones never carried out, on which much of 20th C physics has come to be
based.
> 
> The Wright's observations of the effects of furniture and human bodies on
> flowing air in a room indicate the persistence of effects caused by solid
> objects on air currents. You must an airflow in a room. The airflow is
> always large enough to be detected easily, with smoke, soap bubbles etc. It
> is impossible to stop air currents, except by moving the room to
> interstellar space and holding it close to absolute zero.

Bah! Either do experiments or stop speculating this way...


>The air always 
> moves, and there must always be temperature variations. Air moving
> horizontally will upwell or drop below a solid object, like wind meeting a
> hill. I suppose this must cause a persistent variation in temperature above
> a solid object. It would not surprise me to learn that it is often about a
> half-degree.

It is NOT. So there.  Aristotle toppled again.
> 
> I said this experiment as performed is "unconvincing." I did not say it is
> bunk and should be dismissed.

You used some pretty harsh words against the Correas -- possible "liars,
insane, etc." -- so why should anyone think that you have any genuine
interest in these experiments except to exhibit your supposed knowledge of
air currents?


>There are enough unknowns and unsatisfactory
> aspects to make it unconvincing. Some sort of null with a block of wood, a
> pillow or what-have-you would help, but as I said persistent variations
> occur even in the absence of objects, presumably caused by such things as
> hot water pipes in the walls. My guess is the only way to make this
> experiment more convincing would be to either boost the temperature
> difference to something like 6 deg C (~3 sigma in my house), or put the
> whole thing in some sort of calorimeter. Unfortunately the calorimeter
> might interfere with the putative effect, since I presume most calorimeters
> act as Faraday cages.

The entire array of experiments in AS2-05 suffices to deal with these
matters.
> 
> Proving or disproving the existence of this effect is a tough problem.

Yes, it requires much experimentation, which AS2-05 reports.
> 
> Please note I did this long before Correa tested the Reich box, so I was
> not attempting to debunk Correa. Based on my results, Ed Wall and I decided
> Perkins needed a confined inlet. As soon as Wall made one, the
> Perkins-device apparent excess heat vanished.

The Perkins-Pope experiment and the delta-T variations connected with it
have no bearing at all on the Einstein-Reich experiment.  But I do expect
that you will continue to insist that it does. Maybe I'll be proved wrong.
> 
> 
>> The items -- the free air suspended thermometer and the Faraday cage
>> should be in relatively close proximity -- whether 1 or 2 feet separate
>> did not make much of a difference, in a few spot checks. However, the
>> Correas did more extensive controls and tests than I did. [In issue #37]
> 
> And WAY better controlled that the tests I did, which is probably why the
> Delta-T temperatures he observed in adjacent locations were much smaller
> than the ones I observed. They seem to correlate with the box materials, as
> Reich suggested, but I do not the results are as clear cut and
> "irreducible" as Correa thinks. More control experiments and a much bigger
> effect with a proper calorimeter instead of guesswork and supposition would
> be more convincing.

AS2-05 is not guesswork and supposition. It is an attempt to localize the
source of the heat evolution.
> 
> 
>> The observer in this case makes no impact until, I would estimate, 10-15
>> seconds after his head nears the thermometer for reading --long enough  to
>> read it without perturbation.
> 
> On the other hand, the perturbation persists for quite a while, maybe a
> half hour, before things return to "normal." Normal, of course, depends on
> the time of day, season of year, whether you are running the washing
> machine and hot water is flowing through the pipes, and a hundred other
> uncontrolled and uncontrollable factors. This is why a room is a poor
> substitute for a calorimeter.
> 
> 
>> Jed's criticisms of this experiment remind me so much of the nonsense from
>> the cold fusion skeptics . . .
> 
> I think the comparison is invalid. My criticisms are based on actual
> experiments I performed long before Correa made his claim. Ed Wall and I
> used these experiments to demonstrate a mistake in another machine that was
> thought to be over unity, but clearly was not. (At least, it wasn't when we
> tested it.)

A perfect confirmation of what I contended. Using inappropriate experiments
to critique another one.


>The cold fusion "skeptics" never perform experiments or refer
> to them, whereas I always do.

Yeah, but just be sure to do the right one...


>The "skeptics" usually attack theory instead
> of experiment, whereas I would never attempt to grapple with Correa's
> theories.

An hypothesized theory and experiment should be integrated, ideally. This
helps guide what should be experimented on.
> 
> 
>> The Wright brothers methodologies described above have no bearing on the
>> Reich-Einstein experiment.
> 
> I see an important connection between the two. I doubt many other
> scientists after 1901 carefully investigated the effects of furniture and
> household objects on moving air currents. Wind tunnels today are engineered
> to avoid these problems, with carefully sited inlets and outlets. The
> Wright results may be the only relevant ones on record, for all I know.
> This is not the sort of thing people normally investigate. If you insist on
> using a room for a calorimeter, you must investigate this very carefully.

As I said, it has been done, but the real meat of the Correa/Reich/Tesla
work far transcends these thermal experiments.
> 
=
- Gene Mallove
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  4 07:52:05 2002
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Subject: Re: Reich experiment unconvincing
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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On 6/4/02 5:39 AM, "Terry Blanton" <blantont pbtta.com> wrote:

> Could it be, however, the number of photons in the room absorbed by the
> suspended object?  It would seem to me that energy given off by the
> walls, a human body, or any object in the room *will* raise the
> temperature of the suspended box by *some* amount.  I wonder if painting
> the surface black changes the differential?
> 
> Terry

All these issues are dealt with in the full corpus of the Correa work though
Monograph AS2-17c, but especially AS2-05.

--Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  4 08:40:42 2002
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>Stirring up the air in the room is most certainly not part of the experiment.

All air in all rooms is stirred up. You cannot avoid stirring the air.


>The experiment described by the Correas does not involve a person 
>wandering around in a small room.

Yes, it does. He says he uses a mercury thermometer. A person wanders in to 
read it.


>The point of the experiment is to note what happens to delta-T during 
>quiescent conditions.

There is no such thing a quiescent condition in an ordinary room.


>The Reich-Einstein experiment is thus a severe limiting case of much more 
>provocative thermal experiments connected with ORACs -- indoor and out, 
>which the Correas report.

Do you refer to the Stirling engine experiments described in I.E. #41? I do 
not find these provocative. I find them confusing and even less  convincing 
for the following reasons:

1. I cannot tell how much energy the Stirling engine is producing.

2. I do not know the heat capacity of the box would be, or how much normal 
ambient energy it might collect.

3. Mixing solar energy with the putative aether energy is a very bad idea. 
You should never mix two sources of energy, especially something like noisy 
solar energy, and if you must include solar energy you should measure it.

4. The experiment is conducted in open air -- even outdoors! -- instead of 
inside a calorimeter. Trying to do calorimetry outdoors is one of the 
craziest notions I have heard of in a long time. Why not do it while 
swinging on a flying trapeze?


>I assume that is because I was stirring up the air by
> > entering and leaving the room, and sometimes it took more than 5 minutes to
> > recover.
>
>Yes, that is precisely what happens when one enters and leaves a room, but 
>this is not the protocol of the experiment.

Obviously he did enter and leave the room every time he read the 
thermometers. The question is, how often did he read them? This aspect of 
the protocol is not described in the article in issue #37, and the graphs 
are printed low resolution, but it looks as if some of the data points were 
taken no more than a half-hour apart, perhaps closer.


>Note well, there were no negative differentials, even in the limited part 
>of the experiment that I reported. Interesting, and important to note.

Yes, the data is very noisy, but the metal box always seems to above the 
wooden one. But there is no way to know whether the metal box was actually 
producing energy, without a calorimeter. It does not say whether the box 
positions were switched, or whether other objects such as a pillow were 
substituted for the boxes.


>You used some pretty harsh words against the Correas -- possible "liars, 
>insane, etc." -- so why should anyone think that you have any genuine 
>interest in these experiments except to exhibit your supposed knowledge of 
>air currents?

First of all, the experiments were originally conducted by Reich & 
Einstein, not the Correas. Second, there would a temporal discontinuity if 
my tests were conducted in order to debunk or discredit the Correas. I did 
my tests first. Third, my opinion of them as people has nothing to do with 
my evaluation of their scientific claims. From all that I have read about 
Galileo and Newton, I get the impression they were both First Class Jerks, 
and back-stabbing, whining pathological liars, but I have no doubt their 
scientific claims are valid. On the other hand, I have met some CF 
scientists who are the salt of the earth: upstanding, helpful, friendly, 
honest as the day is long, yet as far as I can tell their research is garbage.


>The entire array of experiments in AS2-05 suffices to deal with these
>matters.

http://www.aetherometry.com, section AS2-05 apparently describes 
experiments conducted outdoors. Are there any experiments described on the 
web page that were conducted with a calorimeter?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  4 08:56:22 2002
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Subject: No wooden box! My mistake.
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I wrote:

"Yes, the data is very noisy, but the metal box always seems to above the 
wooden one."

I meant: The metal box temperature always seems to be higher than the 
wooden box temperature.

But I got that wrong! I refer to the graphs in I.E. #37, Figs 1 - 4. They 
are labeled: "Temperature of freely suspended indoors air thermometer." I 
somehow got mixed up and imagined the second thermometer was suspended 
above a dummy, wooden box. That's how I would do the experiment in open 
air. Actually, of course I wouldn't do it in air. I would put the whole 
thing in a Styrofoam box, to see whether the temperature remained 
persistently higher than the surroundings. I hope Styrofoam would not 
interfere with the putative aether energy effect.

Correa does discuss wooden boxes, presumably used as blanks, elsewhere.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  4 09:14:44 2002
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Subject: Warner ICCF-9 paper
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Jon Warner (twarner pacifier.com) sent me his ICCF-9 paper and Poster. I 
just asked him for permission to distribute the paper. The Poster as 
displayed in Internet Explorer is unwieldy but the individual picture .gif 
files in it are neat. Here is the paper title & abstract:

ELECTROLYSIS OF D2O WITH TITANIUM CATHODES: ENHANCEMENT OF EXCESS HEAT AND 
FURTHER EVIDENCE OF POSSIBLE TRANSMUTATION

J. Warner, J. Dash and Stephen Frantz

Using Ti-Pt electrodes in closed electrolytic cells containing D2O-H2SO4 
electrolyte, evidence for excess thermal power generation has been observed 
(i.e. Power out  Power in > 0).  It had been noted that experiments 
(8-cell) with smaller cathodes (larger perimeter to area ratio) performed 
better than experiments (SEC system) in which larger cathodes (smaller 
perimeter to area ratio) were used.  In an effort to increase the magnitude 
of the excess power output, slits were introduced into the larger cathodes 
to increase the perimeter to area ratio.  Two SEC systems were used during 
the course of these experiments.  Using data from the first SEC system we 
find that four of seven (57%) of the experiments with slit cathodes showed 
an excess thermal power, averaging 322 mW (ranging from 136 to 509 mW) and 
five of fourteen (36%) of the experiments with no cathode slits gave excess 
thermal power, averaging 171 mW (ranging from 115 to 233 mW).  Overall, 10 
of 13 (77%) of the experiments with slit cathodes showed excess power while 
only 5 of 15 (30%) of the experiments with no slits in the cathodes showed 
excess power.  This result shows an increase in both the magnitude and 
reproducibility of the excess power output effect.  In addition, Neutron 
Activation Analysis (NAA) was performed on several cathodes 
(post-experiment) where greater concentrations of unexpected elements are 
found in those cells that showed excess power compared to those cells that 
did not show excess power.


I wonder if the Iwamura JJAP paper is available?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  4 09:30:47 2002
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Jed wrote:

The Administration now predicts extreme changes,
yet it proposes to do nothing substantial to prevent them.

This is folly on a breathtaking scale, seldom equaled in history ...

Hi Jed,

Remember, the Iliad was written down by Greeks; so it's
difficult for us to assess the stupidity of the Trojans.
Can we conclude that the Greeks were as clever as they
present themselves?  Who knows what the Trojan doom-talkers
were saying (Timeo danaos et dona ferentes?)

It's possible that the current global warming is a "warm
room" effect.  Without any additional infrared retention,
the Earth may be warming from the heat flow set up about
12,000 years ago by means unknown to us.  The current
inter-glacial may not match the immediately preceding
inter-glacial which only lasted about 10,000 years.  We
may be in an inter-glacial matching an earlier one that
lasted 30,000 years.

Consider the following scenario:  The Earth warms
sufficiently to melt the Arctic ice cap; but the warming
is so slow that the Arctic is still cold after the ice
melts.  "Lake effect" snow roars down across North
America.  In some July, the continent is coated with
a 50-foot layer of snow to the Ohio River.  Reflecting
sunlight back into space, the snow does not melt.

Within a relatively short time, the land that once was
Cleveland is buried by a mile high sheet of ice as it
was 12,000 years ago.  The snow does not stop until the
Arctic Ocean is frozen over again.

If this could happen, it's possible our best policy
would be to pour greenhouse gases into the atmosphere
until the CO2 concentration reaches that of the 
Cretaceous, about five times what it is today.  If
we hesitate, and make a feeble effort to reduce greenhouse
gas emissions (the flatulent cow problem, etc.)
we may fall between the bar stools.

Jack Smith



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Taylor J. Smith wrote:

>If
>we hesitate, and make a feeble effort to reduce greenhouse
>gas emissions (the flatulent cow problem, etc.)
>we may fall between the bar stools.
>

There is possibly a simple solution to the bovine digestive methane 
problem from down under:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_2023000/2023371.stm

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  4 10:00:08 2002
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Subject: Re: Global Warming.
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Taylor J. Smith wrote:

>Remember, the Iliad was written down by Greeks; so it's difficult for us 
>to assess the stupidity of the Trojans.

Well, assuming the story is accurate, some the of the Trojans considered 
themselves stupid. That's Tuchman's point, "it must have been perceived as 
counter-productive in its own time, not merely by hindsight . . ." (She 
also says "in its own society.")

Anyway, even if that story is apocryphal, or Greek propaganda, it still 
teaches an important lesson about human nature. People have often done 
equally stupid things, or infinitely stupider and more dangerous things, as 
recently as yesterday in India and Pakistan. The U.S. refusal to help the 
Russians destroy their tactical nuclear weapons may kill far more Americans 
than all the victims of the Trojan wars.


>It's possible that the current global warming is a "warm room" 
>effect.  Without any additional infrared retention, the Earth may be 
>warming from the heat flow set up about 12,000 years ago by means unknown 
>to us. . . .

Yes, I conceded that possibility. But most experts doubt it, and in any 
case, there are many compelling reasons to stop using fossil fuel anyway, 
so we should do it even if we doubt global warming is real.


>If this could happen, it's possible our best policy would be to pour 
>greenhouse gases into the atmosphere until the CO2 concentration reaches 
>that of the  Cretaceous . . .

We can always do that later on, should the need arises. It is easier to put 
something into the environment than to take it out.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  4 10:48:57 2002
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Hi all.

False alarm; President Bush is still just as ignorant as ever.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58119-2002Jun4.html

Those who think we need more CO2 in the atmosphere should definitely
plan some vacation time on Venus; that's what things look like when
CO2 levels get sufficiently high. The earth is a little more complicated
than a backyard greenhouse.

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothwell infinite-energy.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 12:56 PM
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Global Warming.


Taylor J. Smith wrote:

>Remember, the Iliad was written down by Greeks; so it's difficult for us
>to assess the stupidity of the Trojans.

Well, assuming the story is accurate, some the of the Trojans considered
themselves stupid. That's Tuchman's point, "it must have been perceived as
counter-productive in its own time, not merely by hindsight . . ." (She
also says "in its own society.")

Anyway, even if that story is apocryphal, or Greek propaganda, it still
teaches an important lesson about human nature. People have often done
equally stupid things, or infinitely stupider and more dangerous things, as
recently as yesterday in India and Pakistan. The U.S. refusal to help the
Russians destroy their tactical nuclear weapons may kill far more Americans
than all the victims of the Trojan wars.


>It's possible that the current global warming is a "warm room"
>effect.  Without any additional infrared retention, the Earth may be
>warming from the heat flow set up about 12,000 years ago by means unknown
>to us. . . .

Yes, I conceded that possibility. But most experts doubt it, and in any
case, there are many compelling reasons to stop using fossil fuel anyway,
so we should do it even if we doubt global warming is real.


>If this could happen, it's possible our best policy would be to pour
>greenhouse gases into the atmosphere until the CO2 concentration reaches
>that of the  Cretaceous . . .

We can always do that later on, should the need arises. It is easier to put
something into the environment than to take it out.

- Jed


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  4 11:33:36 2002
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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Subject: Re: Global Warming.
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In a message dated 6/4/2002 2:09:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
blantont pbtta.com writes:


> >we hesitate, and make a feeble effort to reduce greenhouse
> >gas emissions (the flatulent cow problem, etc.)
> >we may fall between the bar stools

Global warming has to do with the currents in the Ocean and not green house 
gases.
The green house gases are insignificant.  To much fresh water in the oceans 
from ice melting can change the salinity of the ocean which affects the ocean 
currents that cool the atmosphere.  During the ice age, the glaciers melted 
and changed the ocean salinity to change the cooling cycles of the ocean 
which also changed the temperatures severally to create a longer ice age. 

Most of the atmosphere such as ozone wholes, is repairing itself, by the use 
of HAARP technologies.  The atmosphere is also getting thicker by the use of 
HAARP technologies. 

The magnetic orientation of the Earth, the atmosphere and weather of the 
Earth, and the solar Flares of the Sun can all easily be maintained and 
stabilized with radio wave and HAARP technologies.  Only devious shadow 
organizations controlling the HAARP and radio wave technologies would 
destabilize and of the above natural systems. 


Respectfully,


Thomas Clark
tom rhfweb.com
www.rhfweb.com\personal


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 6/4/2002 2:09:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, blantont pbtta.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt;we hesitate, and make a feeble effort to reduce greenhouse
<BR>&gt;gas emissions (the flatulent cow problem, etc.)
<BR>&gt;we may fall between the bar stools</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Global warming has to do with the currents in the Ocean and not green house gases.
<BR>The green house gases are insignificant. &nbsp;To much fresh water in the oceans from ice melting can change the salinity of the ocean which affects the ocean currents that cool the atmosphere. &nbsp;During the ice age, the glaciers melted and changed the ocean salinity to change the cooling cycles of the ocean which also changed the temperatures severally to create a longer ice age. 
<BR>
<BR>Most of the atmosphere such as ozone wholes, is repairing itself, by the use of HAARP technologies. &nbsp;The atmosphere is also getting thicker by the use of HAARP technologies. 
<BR>
<BR>The magnetic orientation of the Earth, the atmosphere and weather of the Earth, and the solar Flares of the Sun can all easily be maintained and stabilized with radio wave and HAARP technologies. &nbsp;Only devious shadow organizations controlling the HAARP and radio wave technologies would destabilize and of the above natural systems. 
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Respectfully,
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Thomas Clark
<BR>tom rhfweb.com
<BR>www.rhfweb.com\personal
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  4 14:05:15 2002
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Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 17:00:04 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: New Pimentel paper
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Here is a paper in Word format by David Pimentel, author of "Food, Energy 
and Society." Title and first paragraph:

RENEWABLE ENERGY ENERGETIC,
ECONOMIC, AND ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES

"The United States faces energy shortages and increasing energy prices 
within the next few decades (Abelson 2000, Duncan 2000).  Coal, petroleum, 
natural gas, and other mined fuels provide three quarters of the US 
electricity, and 93% of other US energy needs (USBC 1999).  In total, each 
American uses nearly 8,000 liters of oil equivalents for all purposes 
annually, including transportation, heating, and (USBC 1999).   A liter of 
gasoline costs as much as 55¢ and may double in the next decade.  The 
United States now imports more than 60% of its oil at an annual cost of 
approximately $75 billion (USBC 1999).   It is projected that the US will 
be importing nearly 94% in approximately 20 years based on production 
forecasts (BP 1999, Morrell 2000).  The 3.6 trillion kWh of electricity 
produced annually at a cost of 7¢ to 20¢ per kWh are becoming insufficient 
as the US population of more than 280 million increases of more than 3 
million people each year.  Under these circumstances the future 
contribution of renewable energy sources will be vital."


He wrotes from the biologist's perspective. I think his estimate of wind 
energy potential is too conservative and out of date.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  4 14:48:57 2002
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Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 17:23:09 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Jaing paper from ICCF-9
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TORSION FIELD EFFECT AND AXION MODEL IN ELECTRICAL DISCHARGE SYSTEMS

Xing-Iiu Jiang	, Xiong-wei Wen, Science School, Beijing University of 
Aeronautics and Astronautics, Beijing 100083, China

Li-jun Han, Department of Materials Science and Engineering,
Beijing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics, Beijing 100083, China

ABSTRACT

Highly localized nuclear activation in electrochemical systems and other 
electrical discharge processes have been observed by many laboratories in 
world. There is an attempt to explain such anomalous phenomena by using 
torsion field theory and axion model in this report. Anisotopic behaviours 
of radiation products, burst charaster, "heat after death" of excess energy 
release in electrical discharge systems are considered to be interpreted by 
the torsion coherence of vortex dynamics with the zero-point energy induced 
by localized intense field emission of micro-protrusion of the cathode, and 
the dynamic Casimir effect of transient evolution of triple region of gas, 
liquid solution, and electrode protrusion. Axion model and Primakoff effect 
are proposed for explanation of nuclear transmutation without noticeable 
gamma radiation.

Nuclear products with high concentration, unidentified tracks with highly 
collimated lines of low energy nuclear reactions in the electrochemical 
systems were recorded by CR-39 solid detectors and photo-films, and 
localized spots with chemical alterations were observed at our laboratory. 
It is suggested to carry out intensive study of vortex dynamic for 
explaining the anomalous in wide area of nature and laboratories. Analysis 
of vortex dynamics with wide range from pitting corrosion of 
electrochemical system, laboratory plasma, tornado, to quasar spiral model 
with extremely high energy cosmic rays in the center region, leads to a 
conclusion for that vortex dynamics creates torsion fields responding to 
the anomalous effects.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  4 14:51:30 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Ti-Gold Corp. handout describing experimental apparatus
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Ti-Gold Corporation

INTRODUCTION TO "DEMONSTRATION ONE" APPARATUS

Fundamental Function

This apparatus is designed for observing and testing low temperature fusion 
reactions in different conditions. Tests in the apparatus will provide some 
useful data for researching related theories of the fusion reaction.

Single-layer or Multi-layer plating on the selected film will be observed 
and measured for coming to a principle of varieties and reactions.

Sample platform can be annealed by the heater in order to release the gas
absorbed by films and enhance the repeatability of experiments.

Physical phenomena of experiments will indicate some information to improve 
experimental technique or method.

Dimension and Structure
Vacuum chamber: diameter 300mm X 300mm
Final Vacuum:   10 E-4 Pa
Sputter coating Vacuum: 10 E-1 Pa (manual regulation)
Positive pressure of hydrogen(deuterium):       0.1 - 0.2 Mpa (manual 
regulation)


Two independent heating apparatus constant temperature heater: Enclose the 
film, form a radial heating condition, maximum heating temperature reaches 
300 deg C.

Movable annealer:       Heat the film to 900 C, anneal the sample  without 
destruction of vacuum, retracting while sputter plating


Film size

Diameter:       diameter 20 mm
Thickness:      0 1 mm
Film material:  pure palladium

Three independent S-gun (sputter gun) systems:  Located in big chamber, 
assembled alternative sputter target material, such as Ti, Ni, Pd. CaO take 
turns to use S-gun, the multi-layer forming film will consist of different 
materials

S-gun power system:     1kW constant direct current sputter power supply, 
0.5kW radio frequency(RF)power supply is accepted as accessory system

Vacuum chamber equipment:       Baffle plate convertor, connecting 
tcrminal(both for measurement and for heat), vacuum gauge, gas charging 
valve, gas release valve and so on used for connecting experimental instrument

Far observation window: Glass slice for inspecting the chamber while using 
silicon slice for penetrating infrared rays

Little Vacuum chamber:  Located reverse side of film, isolated from outer 
vacuum chamber(pass the detecting of mass-spectrometer leak detector), 
force the gas such as H2 from outer vacuum chamber to reach inner little 
chamber only by going through the film(Pd film) as unique passage, low 
vacuum of little vacuum chamber can reach 2 x l0E-1 Pa

Near observation window:        The silicon slice (planning instead of 
germanium) with reflection reducing coating will let infrared rays 
generated in high accuracy infrared video camera in, the photographic taken 
by the camera will indicate physical phenomena and display the temperature 
distribution or gradient while the gas pass through the film, experimental 
data will be recorded by computer connecting with system


Addition:

The apparatus is matched with current experimental requirements. but new 
functions can be added according to experimental changes at any time


BEIJING GREAT-WALL TI-GOLD CORPORATION

No.7A, Bei An He Road, Haidian District, Beijing 100095, P.R.CHINA

TEL: (86-10) 62489202, 62489208 FAX: (86-10) 62489208
Http://www.greatwall-tigold.com Email: wangdianru sina.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  4 16:34:47 2002
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Subject: Re: Stirling engine output power
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Jed,

>It  suddenly occurred to me just now that one report says Ken Rauen started
the
> motor with the heat from the palm of his hand.

I owe you an apology for some of my harsher comments in earlier private
posts--I thought you knew all about this little Sterling motor.  You should
have Ken describe it to you--it's a nifty piece of engineering, very light,
and can run off the heat supplied by the palm of the hand.  What I said in
my post particular post was "If they (the Correas) are using the same kind
of Sterling motor Ken had that runs on the heat in the palm of your hand,
then it doesn't take much."  (Or words to that effect.) It takes more energy
at start-up since you have to get the flywheel turning--once it's up to
speed, you only need to make up the losses to keep it running indefinitely.

Since it is a simple exercise in high school physics to "calibrate" the
Sterling motor (i.e. find rpms/watt) at least to a correct ballpark figure,
I'm surprised that neither the Correas nor Ken or Gene has done this yet.

Jeff



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun  4 16:36:32 2002
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Subject: Re: Reich experiment unconvincing
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:31:52 -0400
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Jed,

Gene said:
> >The point of the experiment is to note what happens to delta-T during
> >quiescent conditions.

You said:
> There is no such thing a quiescent condition in an ordinary room.

Correct.  Note that apart from simple stirring, when dealing with signal to
noise ratios that are this small, one must also recall that temperatures are
a measure of _average_  particle velocity.  That is, some particles are
moving faster than others.  When one introduces "objects" into "still" air,
the object may scatter the faster particles differently than the slower
ones, resulting in local warm and cold spots, and hence, air currents. A
small effect, but there nonetheless.

Jeff



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Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 22:07:48 -0700
Subject: Re: Stirling engine output power
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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On 6/4/02 4:01 PM, "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com> wrote:

> Jed,
> 
>> It  suddenly occurred to me just now that one report says Ken Rauen started
> the
>> motor with the heat from the palm of his hand.
> 
> I owe you an apology for some of my harsher comments in earlier private
> posts--I thought you knew all about this little Sterling motor.

Minor point -- it's Stirling, not Sterling,  but it is true that the
performance of these beasts is sterling...


> You should
> have Ken describe it to you--it's a nifty piece of engineering, very light,
> and can run off the heat supplied by the palm of the hand.  What I said in
> my post particular post was "If they (the Correas) are using the same kind
> of Sterling motor Ken had that runs on the heat in the palm of your hand,
> then it doesn't take much."  (Or words to that effect.) It takes more energy
> at start-up since you have to get the flywheel turning--once it's up to
> speed, you only need to make up the losses to keep it running indefinitely.
> 
> Since it is a simple exercise in high school physics to "calibrate" the
> Sterling motor (i.e. find rpms/watt) at least to a correct ballpark figure,
> I'm surprised that neither the Correas nor Ken or Gene has done this yet.

Most of our time has gone into far more robust "Stirling-like" engines that
have been built and tested. These are proprietary, for now.  However,
interesting exotic experiments with the MM6-class engines have been planned.
It is a good test bed system.  But its is hard to get too excited about
these MM6 motors, even when attached to a HYBORAC, when you have seen and
tested working self-running aether motors in operation  :)

Perhaps you and Jed overlooked the Correas' remark about their testing of
the MM6 power, which will no doubt appear in future monographs by them that
will discuss these energetics. To wit -- from my earlier posting:


>From Dr. Paulo and Alexandra Correa:
"Yes, one could do it with a maser, somehow hidden from sight in the middle
of a large yard and targeting the box.  But why bother?  Isn't nature enough
and that which WE are studying and hoping to use?  As you saw and the videos
demonstrate [Videos that I have viewed - EFM], the HYBORAC was placed in the
middle of the yard, in the same approximate location for days and nights.
There are no radio towers around, and the nearest TV and microwave
communications tower was built three years ago (before the AS2-05
experiments) and stands ca 5/6 km away.  There were no masers or hidden
sources of radiation.  Nor were there any when Reich discovered the thermal
anomaly in Faraday cages and ORACs.  From our latest work and calculations,
the Stirling Motor was observed to perform work in the range of 20 to 500 mW
(it beats many a CF cell's claims).  Putting the efficiency at near 8%
(see our last Stirling report on nighttime operation) and the delta-T at 80%
of a To-T value of 30°C, one easily realizes that the sensible heat evolved
inside the boxes cannot account for the work of the Stirling motor.
Evidently, its action must tap the latent heat of the box, likely acting
upon the top of the box as a molecular pump that promotes conversion of
latent into sensible heats.  In other words, sensible heat alone cannot
account for the Stirling action."

-Gene



> 
> Jeff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  5 08:33:36 2002
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Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 11:25:22 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Stirling engine output power
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>Most of our time has gone into far more robust "Stirling-like" engines 
>that have been built and tested. These are proprietary, for now.  However, 
>interesting exotic experiments with the MM6-class engines have been 
>planned. It is a good test bed system.

How do you know? Have you calibrated it? Does it always produce the same 
number of rpms for a given power level? There is no discussion of this in 
the Correa paper. The efficiency of the Stirling engine makes no difference 
in its role as a test bed. What counts is predictability, repeatability, 
and a linear response to input power.


>Perhaps you and Jed overlooked the Correas' remark about their testing of 
>the MM6 power . . .

I did not overlook it, but I have not critiqued it carefully until now. I 
will, below.


>[quoting Correa] . . . But why bother?  Isn't nature enough and that which 
>WE are studying and hoping to use?  As you saw and the videos
>demonstrate [Videos that I have viewed - EFM], the HYBORAC was placed in 
>the middle of the yard, in the same approximate location for days and 
>nights. . . .

As I said, outdoors is an insane place to test an energy producing machine 
that supposedly generates less than 1 watt! It would be difficult enough in 
controlled, enclosed laboratory conditions.


>There are no radio towers around, and the nearest TV and microwave
>communications tower was built three years ago (before the AS2-05
>experiments) and stands ca 5/6 km away.  There were no masers or hidden 
>sources of radiation.

How do they know? Have they looked for radiation with appropriate 
instruments? You cannot feel radiation, although Fred Sparber makes an 
interesting case that some people can hear it, sometimes. Looking around 
and saying "I don't see any radio towers!" does not constitute a valid test.


>Nor were there any when Reich discovered the thermal anomaly in Faraday 
>cages and ORACs.  From our latest work and calculations, the Stirling 
>Motor was observed to perform work in the range of 20 to 500 mW (it beats 
>many a CF cell's claims). . . .

How do they know it is 20 to 500 mW? Is there a calibration? Are there any 
null runs with objects other than the ORAC, such as blocks of wood or 
pillows? Let me reiterate that I have read these reports carefully, several 
times, and in my opinion they are not convincing for the following reasons:

1. The test environment ranges from mostly uncontrolled (an indoor room) to 
totally uncontrolled (outdoors!).

2. There are no calibrations -- or I have not found them anyway.

3. There are no control runs, and no null runs. As far as anyone knows the 
same effect would be seen with any object, or no object.

4. All of the data I have seen is probably within the noise, at a 
half-degree. The ambient temperature in the room varies as much as 2 
degrees over several days, as shown in Fig. 3.

5. Solar energy is deliberately mixed in with the putative aether energy. 
Solar energy varies from moment to moment, and hour to hour, with clouds 
and the changing angle of the sun. It is a good example of uncontrolled 
noise, yet as far as I can tell solar energy was not measured or recorded 
with a light meter. We have essentially no idea how much conventional 
energy was put into the system, or how much heat capacity the box has.

To be blunt, these are very serious shortcomings. The experiments are 
sloppy and half-baked. Experiments presented without a single blank run or 
calibration are totally unacceptable. I ignore many ICCF presentations for 
lesser faults. I do not usually publish critiques of sloppy work here or in 
the magazine, because there is no point. People want to hear about 
promising, interesting, valid research, not experiments without 
calibrations! I am only discussing this particular work here because Gene 
keeps bringing it up. I thought I made these five points clear in previous 
messages, but Gene has not addressed them so perhaps I did not.

Naturally, even if these were beautiful results, no one can accept or 
reject them until they are independently replicated. As things stand, no 
one will attempt to replicate. Researchers do not spend time on an 
experiment that has not even been calibrated.


>Putting the efficiency at near 8%

How can anyone tell!?! Even the Correas admit output power might be 
anywhere from 20 to 500 mW, and they did not even bother to measure solar 
input!


>. . . (see our last Stirling report on nighttime operation) and the 
>delta-T at 80% of a To-T value of 30°C, one easily realizes that the 
>sensible heat evolved inside the boxes cannot account for the work of the 
>Stirling motor.

Since there is no measure of the sensible heat in a control run, and no 
measure of the solar input, this is not in evidence. It is all based on 
guess work, theory, and supposition.

The Correas seem to have a talent for obscuring the issues, and finding the 
least convincing, most tortured way to present their case. With the PAGD 
they set up "ping-pong" banks of batteries, instead of a small, limited 
capacity battery or better yet some sort of large capacitor. They kept 
coming up with reasons for this nutty arrangement, but technical experts I 
spoke with agreed that if you can make the gadget work with a bank of 
batteries, it would not be difficult to arrange a single battery with 
appropriate capacitors and buffers to emulate the electrical 
characteristics of a battery bank. These experts include people like 
Bockris, who wrote the book on batteries and electrochemistry. Even these 
multi-battery banks might have been convincing if they had run them long 
enough, far past the limits of chemistry, but they never reported any such 
run as far as I know. They remind me of screwball inventors who try to make 
their own results look bad, to hide from imaginary rivals. Patterson 
supposedly did this in his patent when he included his least-impressive 
looking data. He definitely did it at Powergen, when he brought a test bed 
with third rate instruments, no computer, and no data recording. He and 
Reding told me their plan was to avoid impressing people too much, to keep 
rivals from paying attention. I told them that was the most idiotic sales 
strategy I ever heard of.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  5 09:40:54 2002
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Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 12:39:13 -0700
Subject: Pulse of the Planet-#5,  critiqued
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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Passing this along for those interested in other on-going battles and
research.  The last section of this report deals with mind-boggling
intrigues concerning OR- and Aether-motors.

- Gene Mallove


AKRONOS Publishing is pleased to announce that it has added to its website,
http://www.aetherometry.com, the following new feature:



             PULSE OF THE PLANET TAKEN TO TASK

      Review of James Demeo's Pulse of the Planet #5, 2002
          (or, The End of the Road for Orgonomism)
          

The direct link is: http://www.aetherometry.com/PP5_index.html.



"Marksmen and thinkers. -- There are curious marksmen who, though they
miss the target, depart from the range complacently proud of the fact
that their bullet did at any rate fly a great distance (well beyond
the target at any event), or that, though they did not hit the target,
they did at any rate hit something.  And there are thinkers like this."

                                   [Nietzsche, "Human, all too human"]


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  5 10:25:58 2002
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Subject: Correa . . . problems #6, #7
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I enumerated 5 things about the Correa papers that bother me. I forgot to 
reiterate two others. These are not profound objections. As Kooistra 
pointed out, my objections are "obvious." Boring, actually. I apologize for 
posting minutia about experiments that other readers here are probably not 
familiar with. Until now, I have not thought it worthwhile to discuss or 
critique this work, as I said before.

Anyway, the problems are:

6. The Correas report that Reich found the inside of the box was cooler 
than the surroundings, and the top of the box was warmer. This suggests the 
box acts as some sort of heat pump rather than an energy producing machine. 
I have no idea why it would do that. Perhaps the layers of metals, 
dielectrical materials and wood have some sort of Peltier-like effect? That 
would seem to violate the Second Law. Anyway, it brings up two major problems:

6. a. The Correas apparently did not check the inside of *their* box to 
find out if it was cool! This would be vitally important finding. Since 
they take Reich seriously they must suspect this is the case.

6. b. If the inside is cool, the entire box must be placed in a calorimeter 
to find out whether there is net excess energy or only heat being moved 
from one location to another. This should be a high priority. Either result 
would be revolutionary, but we are talking about two different revolutions.

7. The Correas claim the box intercepts "massfree electric aether energy" 
from the sun, a.k.a. "longitudinal, ambipolar electric radiation," even at 
night. In I.E. #41, p. 27. they claim the gadget contines for "68 minutes 
after the disappearance of direct solar radiation." I presume that means an 
hour after the sun set. From this and from other hints I gather they think 
the machine works at night. The elevated temperatures in graphs in Issue 37 
do not seem to stop at night. So by extension I suppose some of this energy 
appears to pass through the earth unimpeded, like neutrinos. They do not 
seem to think the energy collects in the box during the day and gradually 
releases at night. They go to some length to show that can't be true. (I am 
sorry to waffle so much about what they assert, but it is difficult for me 
to judge, because their prose is murky and their assertions are hidden 
under terminology which means nothing to me. In ordinary scientific 
writing, you would not refer to the "disappearance of direct solar 
radiation," you would say: "the sun set at 16:18 and the motor continued to 
run for 68 minutes until 17:26 [http://mach.usno.navy.mil].) Anyway, 
although I would not recognize longitudinal ambipolar radiation if it bit 
me on the butt, if the stuff comes through the earth -- right? -- even I 
can tell you should try to measure it underground, someplace free of noise, 
temperature variation and so on. Mizuno is presently conducting a series of 
experiments on the effect of infrared light on water structure. He has had 
such difficulty with stray infrared sources and temperature variations he 
resorted to taking the whole thing deep underground in a mining museum.

Perhaps only a tiny amount of "longitudinal ambipolar radiation" penetrates 
the earth, so the ORAC cannot be operated underground. However, the fact 
that it runs at night does at least indicate you can bring it into a wooden 
house, and place it inside some sort of small non-metallic container, 
preferably a calorimeter.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  5 11:52:07 2002
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Subject: Re: global warming
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>
>I always have trouble with people who use labels such as liberal and 
>conservative
>because it depends on just which aspect of each is being discussed.  For

Savage's big complaint is political correctness, pushed by 
Femininazis, who have attempted to deball, his words, the American 
male. He's a believer is Boarders, language and culture. He can't 
understand why George W has sold out the conservatives who elected 
him, and done the opposite of what we want on these issues. He 
doesn't understand that George W is motivated by a New World Odor 
agenda. He views the actions of the liberal lawyers from the ACLU, 
whom he calls the Red Diaper Doper Babies, who sue to do things like 
removing the 10 commandments from public places, as a continuing 
criminal conspiracy against America. He views Global warming as an 
effort to interfere with our economic development.

>  > evidence of global warming.
>
>This is obvious nonsense.  Global warming is real as anyone can plainly see

Hum, as I understand it, glaciers in the high mountains are growing. 
The increased calving of the antarctic's glaciers would result from 
an increased snow pack on the antarctic. We've had a really weird 
year here in Minnesnowandcold. the lakes barely froze last winter, 
and now summer refuses to stay, it comes and goes. OTOH, the woman 
who does www.earthfiles.com agrees with you.

>  > I've been told that the Martian polar caps are receiding, which means
>
>The ice (frozen CO2) caps on Mars come and go on a regular cycle 
>consistent with
>the seasons on Mars.  Also the sun's energy does fluctuate, but the amount of
>energy being emitted now is not out of the normal cyclic range.
>
>Ed

So, the sun is putting out more energy than usual. That certainly 
would account for the observed effects. There's not to much we can do 
about that.
-- 

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Several logical consequences of the Correa claim do not make sense to me.  First,
if the energy is able to pass through the earth, then it should also pass right
through an empty Reich box.  What is unique about such a box that the energy is
converted to heat (or removes heat) only there?  Why does this energy manifest
itself only in the special box, but ignores the earth?  Second, my Seebeck
calorimeter is made in a way that is similar to the Reich box, i.e., is a empty
metal box.  If the proposed energy is present, it should heat up (or cool down)
my box in the same manner as the Reich box.  This does not happen.  Why not?  Is
this unique energy only detectable using the very special conditions proposed by
Correa?  If yes, why?  I might point out that all phenomenon of nature can be
initiated several different ways.  This rule will also apply to this effect.
What other methods to detect the proposed energy stream have been attempted?

Ed

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I enumerated 5 things about the Correa papers that bother me. I forgot to
> reiterate two others. These are not profound objections. As Kooistra
> pointed out, my objections are "obvious." Boring, actually. I apologize for
> posting minutia about experiments that other readers here are probably not
> familiar with. Until now, I have not thought it worthwhile to discuss or
> critique this work, as I said before.
>
> Anyway, the problems are:
>
> 6. The Correas report that Reich found the inside of the box was cooler
> than the surroundings, and the top of the box was warmer. This suggests the
> box acts as some sort of heat pump rather than an energy producing machine.
> I have no idea why it would do that. Perhaps the layers of metals,
> dielectrical materials and wood have some sort of Peltier-like effect? That
> would seem to violate the Second Law. Anyway, it brings up two major problems:
>
> 6. a. The Correas apparently did not check the inside of *their* box to
> find out if it was cool! This would be vitally important finding. Since
> they take Reich seriously they must suspect this is the case.
>
> 6. b. If the inside is cool, the entire box must be placed in a calorimeter
> to find out whether there is net excess energy or only heat being moved
> from one location to another. This should be a high priority. Either result
> would be revolutionary, but we are talking about two different revolutions.
>
> 7. The Correas claim the box intercepts "massfree electric aether energy"
> from the sun, a.k.a. "longitudinal, ambipolar electric radiation," even at
> night. In I.E. #41, p. 27. they claim the gadget contines for "68 minutes
> after the disappearance of direct solar radiation." I presume that means an
> hour after the sun set. From this and from other hints I gather they think
> the machine works at night. The elevated temperatures in graphs in Issue 37
> do not seem to stop at night. So by extension I suppose some of this energy
> appears to pass through the earth unimpeded, like neutrinos. They do not
> seem to think the energy collects in the box during the day and gradually
> releases at night. They go to some length to show that can't be true. (I am
> sorry to waffle so much about what they assert, but it is difficult for me
> to judge, because their prose is murky and their assertions are hidden
> under terminology which means nothing to me. In ordinary scientific
> writing, you would not refer to the "disappearance of direct solar
> radiation," you would say: "the sun set at 16:18 and the motor continued to
> run for 68 minutes until 17:26 [http://mach.usno.navy.mil].) Anyway,
> although I would not recognize longitudinal ambipolar radiation if it bit
> me on the butt, if the stuff comes through the earth -- right? -- even I
> can tell you should try to measure it underground, someplace free of noise,
> temperature variation and so on. Mizuno is presently conducting a series of
> experiments on the effect of infrared light on water structure. He has had
> such difficulty with stray infrared sources and temperature variations he
> resorted to taking the whole thing deep underground in a mining museum.
>
> Perhaps only a tiny amount of "longitudinal ambipolar radiation" penetrates
> the earth, so the ORAC cannot be operated underground. However, the fact
> that it runs at night does at least indicate you can bring it into a wooden
> house, and place it inside some sort of small non-metallic container,
> preferably a calorimeter.
>
> - Jed

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  5 14:32:45 2002
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Subject: Re: Correa . . . problems #6, #7
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>Several logical consequences of the Correa claim do not make sense to 
>me.  First, if the energy is able to pass through the earth, then it 
>should also pass right through an empty Reich box. . . .

To be fair, let me repeat that may not be what Correa claims. That is my 
interpretation. I don't want to put words in his mouth. I *think* this is 
what he means, based on bits and pieces of the puzzle. Graphs from the 
earlier test (I.E. #37) shows a temperature difference at night, and I.E. 
#41 emphasizes that the energy comes from the sun, and it continues after 
sunset. (I think the phrase "disappearance of direct solar radiation" means 
"sunset." I looked up the time of sunset for the date of the test, and 
tried to work out the sequence and timing based on the narrative.) On p. 29 
it says the motor continues to turn at "30 to 80 rpm at nighttime, with 
Delta T values of 3.1 to 9 deg C." I suppose the conclusion is that energy 
is passing through the earth. Or perhaps he means this is radiation from 
other stars?

Anyway, if that is what Correa means, it certainly does seem unlikely as 
Storms points out, because people have often tested metal boxes such as 
Seebeck calorimeters, and the earth has a great deal more iron in its core 
than a Reich box does.

Also to be fair, Correa says this is "not an analytical experiment" (p. 28) 
and elsewhere I think he says it is not quantitative. The problem is, none 
of his experiments seem analytical or quantitative. He never gets around to 
employing simple, direct, indisputable methods such as calorimetry, or 
doing a control experiment. But I have difficulty reading his papers, so I 
may have overlooked the good experiments. The two published in I.E. are 
inadequate.

- Jed

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	Dear Bill,

	How about the old science hobby articles showing  how to make
metal-resin combiations or "resinates", ie., copper resinate and so on.

	This was a metal-organic-resin compound as a thin or rather thin
to us normal types film.  Some of the common devices were 3 by 5 INCHES!!!


	The resin-metal was applied by spinning or other even thin lyer,
the solvent was allowed to evaporte.

	The whole was heated to low heats to drive off the resin.
 
	Several layers are possible, 4 are are common.


						J
On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, William Beaty wrote:

> On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Keith Nagel wrote:
> 
> > Well, if I wanted to convince someone I had a new technology called
> > transistor, I'd explain that building one is tricky but that you could
> > see an anomalous effect by jamming a wire into a galena crystal. The
> > resulting rectifier I would then explain in terms of transistor theory.
> > In fact, the "hook" would be a cystal radio set project (grin).
> 
> Off topic, but maybe interesting:  to make a galena transistor, the copper
> cats-whisker points must be closer than 0.05mm (and 0.01mm is better.)
> I'm looking at an old conference proceedings from 1951 with an article on
> galena point-contact transistor experiment.   I always wondered how hard
> it would be to make a dual-catswhisker transistor.  Not so easy!
> 
> 
> (((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  5 20:29:32 2002
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Subject: Re: Correa . . . problems #6, #7
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 23:26:43 -0400
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> Several logical consequences of the Correa claim do not make sense to me.
First,
> if the energy is able to pass through the earth, then it should also pass
right
> through an empty Reich box.  What is unique about such a box that the
energy is
> converted to heat (or removes heat) only there?  Why does this energy
manifest
> itself only in the special box, but ignores the earth?

I thought of this one, too, since the earth itself is a conductor. For that
matter, the upper atmosphere is a conductor, too.  So, does conductivity
play a role?  And supposing the aether energy enters the ORAC, does it
interact within the metal walls of the ORAC, or does it go through to the
inside of the box?  And if the latter, how does the energy "know" it's
supposed to stop inside the box?  If it comes in on one side, why doesn't it
go out on the other?  And suppose you have this great big enclosed metal
space, like say, a metal semi-trailer--wouldn't this capture more energy
than a small box, resulting in a significant hot spot on the top of the
trailer?  Wouldn't you be able to look at the top of the trailer at night
with a thermal imager and see the hot spot?

Y'know, it shouldn't be too tough to test an ORAC under vacuum conditions.
Or even just reduced pressure.  If you put an ORAC in a box held at half of
an atmosphere, does it heat up as much as it does at full pressure?  More?
Less?

Jeff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun  5 16:35:13 2002
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
cc: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>, Mike Carrell <mikec@snip.net>
Subject: galena transistors
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On Sun, 2 Jun 2002, Keith Nagel wrote:

> Well, if I wanted to convince someone I had a new technology called
> transistor, I'd explain that building one is tricky but that you could
> see an anomalous effect by jamming a wire into a galena crystal. The
> resulting rectifier I would then explain in terms of transistor theory.
> In fact, the "hook" would be a cystal radio set project (grin).

Off topic, but maybe interesting:  to make a galena transistor, the copper
cats-whisker points must be closer than 0.05mm (and 0.01mm is better.)
I'm looking at an old conference proceedings from 1951 with an article on
galena point-contact transistor experiment.   I always wondered how hard
it would be to make a dual-catswhisker transistor.  Not so easy!


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  6 01:32:08 2002
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nick7 itl.net>
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Subject: Re-annexation of American colonies
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 09:11:18 +0100
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Watch out Yanks. The Brits are fed up with the way you have been running
wild for the last couple of hundred years. This is a planned Friends of the
Earth local group action. For those who don't know, "S" used to be written
so it looked like an "F" in old documents...

Nick Palmer
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------

 HEAR  YE

All Loyal subjects of her Britannic Majefty (and
indeed all Gentlefolke with one halfpenny'worth of
sense) are urgently required to QUELL THE MOST HEINOUS
AND IMPUDENT REVOLT OF HER MAJEFTY'S AMERICAN
COLONIES. This said revolt has now transgreffed all
limits of follie, and the lately Rebelled Colonials
have finally gone starke, staringe bonkers; becoming a
Grave Danger, not only to themfelves  but also ye
refte of the worlde. Their rebellion is now carried on
againft all reafon, and all tranquil rule of law, to
whit they have tolde ye refte of the world to go
stuffe itself, they don't care if they do bring about
ye finale end of the worlde by ye ever-increafing
carbon emiffions and ye complete and entire screwinge
up of ye globale climate. It is now quite clear that
said rebellion can be endured no longer. All perfons,
sound of mind, are required to affemble at Lord
Grosvenor's Square (a renowned haunt of tranfatlantic
sedition and mutinie) at  5  of the clocke, on ye 4th
day of July (anniverfary of the late rebellion), in
order to reftore said colonials to senfe, reafon and
(of courfe) her majefty's dominion.

With refpect to her Great Nation's traditions of
libertie, however, Her Britannic Majefty has
gracioufly condescended to grant to her American
subjects some limited degree of autonomy on fulfilment
of the following conditions...

1/ That their governance be not  influenced, waylaid
or otherwife manipulated by particular and special
interefts ...such as companies engaged in the mining
of coal or drilling of oil.

 2/  That there be no bribes, inducements, offerings
or donations from corporationes or other organifations
got together for the purfuit of profit, to officers of
state, legiflators, members of the congreffe or
senate.
3/ That all affairs of state be guided by learned
philofophers and men of science in pursuit of the
common good, not by sectarian interest or parties
motivated by gain (to whit that leaders of state heed
the judgement of the National Academy of Sciences,
before that of the Board of Exxon Mobil).
 4/  That a mature and refpectful attitude to the
other nations of the world be maintained at all time,
with proper fulfilment of international obligations,
due compliance to international treaties and on no
account any abrogation or unilateral setting afide of
the same.
5/ That there be recognition that the Colonies'
domestic policies can impact the threatened global
environment and thereby endanger the lives and
livelihoods of people in other countries.
6/ (Therefore, with regard to the prior condition)
that there be a reduction of the Colonies' CO2
emiffions (currentlie 25% of global) to levels
proportionate to their population (5% of global) ..ie
to average per capita global rates (for a start..)
7/ That the Colonies maintaine a due senfe of balance
and proportione in the apportioning and recognition of
rights : per exempla the right of the world's poore
not to suffer from floods, drought and famine is more
importante than Americans' rights to drive SUVs on
cheap gaf.
8/ That there be no more 'cowboy corporationes' of the
Enron type, to which ende the accountes of all major
American companies should be submitted for scrutiny by
Her Majefty's 'Serious Fraud Office'. On no account
should the ufe or poffession of paper-shredding
machines be permitted to firms of bookkeepers or
accountants.
9/ That there be repayment of 224 yeares back-tax on
our tea (with compound interefte)..or elfe, otherwife,
a commitment to fare trading practices with the refte
of the world (for example removing their tariff on
steel...otherwise we will dreff up as Indians and
chuck THEIR steel in the sea), and on no account the
ufe of political or economic power to force upon other
states trading agreements favourable to the Colonies
and their large corporationes but prejudiciale to the
well being of the common populace of said states.
10/ That there be no 'prefident' or other perfon of
authority without that he paff an IQ teft; and a
'current affairs' teft (sample queftion: who is the
prefident of Pakiftan ?).

However, Her Majefty has now had a chance to thinke
about it and reckons there's no chance of the 'yanks'
(as ye feckleffe coloniales are sometime knowne)
acceding to these juft and rightful conditions, thuf
they definitely are not deferving of any kind of
independence whatfoever..in shorte, the world will not
miff its moft powerful 'banana-republic'..

 ..therefore all right-thinking perfons should
assemble at Grosvenors's Square, (embaffy of the
Revoltinge Colonials), from 5 pm (to 7.30pm),
Thurfday, 4th July. Dreff code (optional) : red coats,
three-cornered hats, 18th century.etc.

May Right and Justife prevail. Amen.

Campaign against Climate Change
www.campaignagainstclimatechange.net
campclchange yahoo.co.uk, 02088553327, 07903 316 331

PLEAFE DIFTRIBUTE SAID MEFFAGE FAR AND WIDE THROUGHOUT
YE KNOWNE WORLDE

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  6 03:48:58 2002
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Subject: Ironically, PAGD and ORAC are easy to test
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An ORAC is a device that effects the way energy acts, it effects the aether and
with it every energy there is.
ORAC's are often warmer than the environment, this can be seen by making and
ORAC (ORgone ACcumulator) and maybe medical DOR (Deadly Orgone Radiation)
buster, and using a IR (heat) camera to see the difference in temperature, this
has been done and the images are on the web somewhere.

They also have an effect on people and plants, they alter the rate of discharge
of an electroscope, they create odd magnetic fields and effect the rate of
radioactive decay, they also effect Geiger tubes and more, somewhat like a
pyramid it effects a large range of things.

Orgone/Aether is effected by this metal-dielectric sandwich, it does not need to
be a box, a single flat piece of dielectric and metal together is enough.
Furthermore it has been found that metal particles set it resin also create a
similar energy.
This was also used by Patrick Flanagan who found that if he made a HV cap with
metal particles in the dielectric excited by a high frequency HV source it
created incredible ionization.

The energy of an ORAC can also be measured by several means other than heat or
electroscope discharges, indeed Reich made a meter to detect it.

You should not just look at an ORAC as a device that produces heat, but as
something that changes the dynamics of all energy.
An Orgone Accumulator (ORAC) has a greater density of orgone inside due to the
action of the layers, if made in reverse (metal on outside) the density of
orgone inside is less.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  6 04:42:34 2002
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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 06:40:02 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Correa . . . problems #6, #7
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Ed Storms wrote;

>Several logical consequences of the Correa claim do not make sense 
>to me.  First,
>if the energy is able to pass through the earth, then it should also 
>pass right
>through an empty Reich box.  What is unique about such a box that 
>the energy is
>converted to heat (or removes heat) only there?

Have you read any of Reich's or DeMayo's books, Ed? They accumulate a 
form of energy, called Orgone. I have mentioned this in a previous 
post, about the Prill Water, which IMHO, is this same energy. the 
same energy exibits itself in the aura around living bodies.

>   Why does this energy manifest
>itself only in the special box, but ignores the earth?

Because the construction of the box traps it.


>  Second, my Seebeck
>calorimeter is made in a way that is similar to the Reich box, i.e., 
>is a empty
>metal box.

The box has to be constructed of layers of metal and fiberglass.



-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  6 08:59:24 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Re-annexation of American colonies
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Nick Palmer wrote:

>For those who don't know, "S" used to be written
>so it looked like an "F" in old documents...

Except at that end of a word, and it had no cross.


>. . . importante than Americans' rights to drive SUVs on
>cheap gaf.

Should be "cheap gafs," I think.

- Jed, confirmed pedant

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  6 09:29:24 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Correa . . . problems #6, #7
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Jeff Kooistra wrote:

>I thought of this one, too, since the earth itself is a conductor. For that
>matter, the upper atmosphere is a conductor, too.

The mystery deepens because Correa claims the energy measurably attenuates 
in the atmosphere. I cannot imagine how it could penetrate the earth in 
that case.

In response to Storms' concerns, Thomas Malloy suggested Storms read books 
by Reich or DeMayo. I have not read these books, but my impression from 
essays by these people is that they describe theories, and they do not 
address experimental concerns. Reich and his supporters have been trying 
for 60 years to convince the world that "Orgone energy" exists, mainly by 
publishing theories that do not tie in well with existing theory (to say 
the least). They should have done a credible experiment instead.

- Jed

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thomas malloy wrote:

> Ed Storms wrote;
>
> >Several logical consequences of the Correa claim do not make sense
> >to me.  First,
> >if the energy is able to pass through the earth, then it should also
> >pass right
> >through an empty Reich box.  What is unique about such a box that
> >the energy is
> >converted to heat (or removes heat) only there?
>
> Have you read any of Reich's or DeMayo's books, Ed? They accumulate a
> form of energy, called Orgone. I have mentioned this in a previous
> post, about the Prill Water, which IMHO, is this same energy. the
> same energy exibits itself in the aura around living bodies.

I'm aware of Orgone and that it is claimed to be associated with life.
While this idea might have some reality, the problem comes when claims
are made that this novel and invisible energy can be converted into
heat, which is not invisible.  The challenge is to understand how this
novel energy is converted into conventional energy.  Such a conversion,
if real, will have to occur under many conditions, because this is the
way nature works with respect to every other phenomenon.


>
>
> >   Why does this energy manifest
> >itself only in the special box, but ignores the earth?
>
> Because the construction of the box traps it.

Yes, this is an easy claim. But why would this simple construction, and
only this construction, cause energy conversion?

>
>
> >  Second, my Seebeck
> >calorimeter is made in a way that is similar to the Reich box, i.e.,
> >is a empty
> >metal box.
>
> The box has to be constructed of layers of metal and fiberglass.

This is not the description given by the Correas.  Does the energy
conversion occur within the layers?  If so, one would expect the
thickness of the layers to be critical. In addition, a box containing
many panels of such layers would seem to be better than an empty box.  I
suggest, if someone wants to understand such energy conversion, one
should apply some logic to the problem based on experience with similar
energy conversion methods.  Perhaps this has been done. I will have to
go back and reread the Reich book.

Ed


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Subject: ANS: Revival of Nuclear Energy Option
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From: "Dave Kelly" <dkelly ans.org>
Subject: NEWS RELEASE: Revival of Nuclear Energy Option Highlights ANS' '02 
Annual Meeting

Contact: Dave Kelly
dkelly ans.org
(708) 579-8224

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Revival of Nuclear Energy Option Highlights ANS' '02 Annual Meeting

LA GRANGE PARK, Ill. June 4, 2002--The revival of the nuclear energy 
option, near-term power plant deployment and breakthroughs in fusion 
research are among the many topics that will be addressed during the 
American Nuclear Society's 2002 Annual Meeting, being held June 9-13 at the 
Westin Diplomat Hotel in Hollywood, Fla.

To satisfy the growing demand for energy in the United States, and to 
protect the environment from emissions produced by fossil-burning fuels, 
nuclear power is an economic and environmentally friendly alternative to 
meeting the country's energy needs.

A plenary session on "The Revival of the Nuclear Energy Option" will open 
the annual meeting on Monday, June 10. Rep. Joe Barton (R-Texas), a member 
of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, will deliver the keynote address.

William Magwood, director of the Department of Energy's Office of Nuclear 
Energy, Science and Technology, leads the plenary panel that also includes 
Joe Colvin, president and chief executive officer of the Nuclear Energy 
Institute, Rep. Jerry Paul (R-Dist. 71), Deputy Majority Whip of the 
Florida House of Representatives, and Zack Pate, chairman of the World 
Association of Nuclear Operators.

J.A. (Art) Stall, site vice president of Florida Power & Light Co., is 
general chair of the 2002 ANS Annual Meeting. Dr. Nils J. Diaz, 
commissioner of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission serves as honorary chair. 
R. Don Mothena, manager of Nuclear Plant Support Services with Florida 
Power & Light Co. serves as assistant general chair and Dr. Samim Anghaie, 
a professor at the University of Florida, is technical program chair.

The International Congress on Advanced Nuclear Power Plants (ICAPP) will 
conduct its topical meeting in conjunction with the ANS Annual Meeting.

ANS and the ICAAP will hold a joint plenary focusing on market-ready 
nuclear power plants. Speakers include:

· Thomas Miller, Director, Office of Technology and International 
Cooperation, U.S. Department of Energy
· Michael Sellman, President & CEO, Nuclear Management Co.
· Thomas A. Christopher, President & CEO, Framatome ANP
· Mark T. Savoff, President, General Electric Nuclear
· James A. Fici, Senior Vice President-Nuclear Plant Projects, Westinghouse

Technical sessions will be held during the week, covering such topics as 
nuclear nonproliferation, the pebble bed modular reactor, advances in 
nuclear fuels, storage of commercial spent fuel and high-level waste, new 
nuclear power plant design and dry cask storage.

The complete program of the ANS Annual Meeting can be found on the ANS web 
site at www.ans.org/meetings/annual/.

ANS, established in 1954, is a professional organization of scientists and 
engineers devoted to the peaceful applications of nuclear science and 
technology. Its 11,000 members come from diverse technical disciplines 
ranging from physics and nuclear safety to operations and power, and from 
across the full spectrum of the national and international nuclear 
enterprise, including government, academia,
research laboratories and private industry.

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To Vo,

I mentioned to Doug Marett that the scientific evaluation of Reich's ORAC
might be taken on by Jed Rothwell. He has been reviewing progress so-far on
the Vortex Web site.

Doug has been evaluating Reich's work (off and on) for years, and so he's
asked me to forward the results of his ORAC experiments to Vo. (BELOW)

Colin

----

Hi,

Jed Rothwell recently noted:

>6. The Correas report that Reich found the inside of the box was cooler
>than the surroundings, and the top of the box was warmer. This suggests the
>box acts as some sort of heat pump rather than an energy producing machine.
>I have no idea why it would do that. Perhaps the layers of metals,
>dialectical materials and wood have some sort of Peltier-like effect? That
>would seem to violate the Second Law. Anyway, it brings up two major
problems:

>6. a. The Correas apparently did not check the inside of *their* box to
>find out if it was cool! This would be vitally important finding. Since
>they take Reich seriously they must suspect this is the case.

>6. b. If the inside is cool, the entire box must be placed in a calorimeter
>to find out whether there is net excess energy or only heat being moved
>from one location to another. This should be a high priority. Either result
>would be revolutionary, but we are talking about two different revolutions.

I have performed a number of tests on Reich's ORACs and other control
boxes, and have come to some conclusions which may help address what Jed has
said above.

Reich had originally stated that the ORAC maintains a positive temperature
difference that increases with fair weather, and decreases with poor
weather. I
performed a number of measurements in the winter a few years back comparing
the temperature inside the ORAC (galv. metal box with rockwool insulation)
to that
inside a control box (cardboard box with rockwool insulation) as per Reich's
description. When the thermometers were inside the boxes, the temperature
difference between the boxes was small (0.1 to 0.3 deg. C) and varied
opposite to what Reich had suggested, i.e., the temperature difference
increased with cloudy or rainy conditions, and decreased with fair weather.

More recently, I performed the same experiment, but this time, the
thermometers were held above the metal or cardboard box. The result was the
opposite; the temperature difference now increased with fair weather, and
decreased with rainy or snowy weather.

I was initially perplexed by this result, until I decided to repeat the
latter experiment, this time also measuring the vertical temperature
gradient in
the room, using a thermometer near the floor, and one near the roof. What I
found was that the greater the vertical thermal gradient, the greater the
difference between the temperature in the boxes.

I could draw only one conclusion: The temperature difference between the
ORAC and the control in my experiment [at least] is due to the difference in
temperature between the underside of the ORAC and the top of the ORAC. The
ORAC, by the nature of its construction (i.e. a metal interior) likely
partitions heat above the metal box top and below it, but this heat is
derived from the vertical thermal gradient of the room, and not from any
power generating mechanism. If it was not, then the temperature difference
would not parallel the thermal gradient of the room from day to day.

The apparent weather dependence of the phenomenon can be traced to the fact
that, at least during the winter when I did my measurements, sunny days are
usually cooler, and more heat is supplied by the furnace to keep the house
warm, leading to a larger vertical heat gradient. On days of poor weather,
the outdoor temperature is usually warmer, and thus the vertical gradient is
less. This fact was borne out by actual observation.

To conclude, after several years of work on verifying Reich's observations
of temperature differences in the ORAC as compared to controls, I must agree
that the temperature difference does exist, but I must point out that there
is evidence that this difference may be an artefact caused by heat
convection, much like Einstein suggested. This lends support to Jed's
contention that the ORAC may just partition heat.

Sincerely,

Doug Marett M.Sc.



---
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  6 12:58:07 2002
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From: Stephen Lawrence <stephen lawrence.newnet.co.uk>
Subject: Wright brothers' failings
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 >Jed wrote:
 >The world has always worked this way. No one bothered to replicate the 
airplane for five >years. The Wrights were mainly to blame for that. The 
Correas are mainly to blame for the >lack of interest in their claims.

 >>(G.Mallove) Aspden for one is quite clear that the PAGD patents give far 
more >>information >than is ordinarily given in patents, and this would 
lead others to be able to >replicate the >PAGD if they chose to.

 >The Correas should do more to encourage replications. If I owned one of 
their gadgets, I >would know how to encourage replications. I would soon 
have hundreds of thousands of >people frantically working on the device. I 
would use the same methods that worked with >the airplane in 1908, the 
transistor in 1952, and the personal computer in 1975. I would >avoid the 
mistakes that prevented interest in the airplane from 1903 to 1908.

What, in your view,  were these mistakes?

Many Thanks, Stephen Lawrence.

Stephen Lawrence, 8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, CB4 
3LB.  Tel/Fax +44 1223 564373

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Subject: Re: Jed's comments on Reich's ORAC
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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On 6/6/02 12:53 PM, "Colin Quinney" <crquin rogers.com> wrote:

> To conclude, after several years of work on verifying Reich's observations
> of temperature differences in the ORAC as compared to controls, I must agree
> that the temperature difference does exist, but I must point out that there
> is evidence that this difference may be an artefact caused by heat
> convection, much like Einstein suggested. This lends support to Jed's
> contention that the ORAC may just partition heat.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Doug Marett M.Sc.
 


Please see the Correas' comments about the quality and nature of the Marett
twins' work -- in this reference, posted by me recently:


******
AKRONOS Publishing is pleased to announce that it has added to its website,
http://www.aetherometry.com, the following new feature:



             PULSE OF THE PLANET TAKEN TO TASK

      Review of James Demeo's Pulse of the Planet #5, 2002
          (or, The End of the Road for Orgonomism)
          

The direct link is: http://www.aetherometry.com/PP5_index.html.



"Marksmen and thinkers. -- There are curious marksmen who, though they
miss the target, depart from the range complacently proud of the fact
that their bullet did at any rate fly a great distance (well beyond
the target at any event), or that, though they did not hit the target,
they did at any rate hit something.  And there are thinkers like this."

                                   [Nietzsche, "Human, all too human"]

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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 16:45:36 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Wright brothers' failings
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Stephen Lawrence wrote:

> >I would use the same methods that worked with
> >the airplane in 1908, the transistor in 1952, and the personal computer 
> in 1975. I would
> >avoid the mistakes that prevented interest in the airplane from 1903 to 
> 1908.
>
>What, in your view, were these mistakes?

That is a complicated and fascinating question! But I have gabbed about it 
here so often at such appalling length that if I start in again the readers 
are likely to rise up and smite me. Here is an essay I wrote about it. If 
you have any questions, comments or corrections please address them to me 
by private e-mail:

http://www.mv.com/ipusers/zeropoint/IEHTML/feature.html

(On this page, scroll down to Issue 9 or search for "Wright.")

BTW, I have an interesting book about the British response to the Wrights: 
A. Gollin, "No Longer an Island, Britain and the Wright Brothers, 1902 - 
1909," (Stanford U. Press, 1984).

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  6 13:54:33 2002
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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 16:32:53 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Jed's comments on Reich's ORAC
Cc: "Doug Marett" <doug.marett sympatico.ca>
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Colin Quinney quoted Doug Marett:

>To conclude, after several years of work on verifying Reich's observations 
>of temperature differences in the ORAC as compared to controls, I must 
>agree that the temperature difference does exist, but I must point out 
>that there is evidence that this difference may be an artefact caused by 
>heat convection, much like Einstein suggested. This lends support to Jed's 
>contention that the ORAC may just partition heat.

Marett put a lot of hard work into investigating the ORAC. See this 1992 paper:

http://marett.tripod.ca/orgpaper.html

It must be tough for him to reach this conclusion. He has guts! I have not 
read orgpaper.html closely enough to determine whether he is retracting in 
this case, or merely calling into question other people's findings. It says 
"this phenomenon can not be due to 'convection currents' or 'heat 
reflection due to insulation' . . ." It does not mention thermal gradients.

This again illustrates why a Reich device must be tested in a calorimeter. 
I cannot understand why this has not been done. Perhaps it has been done, 
but I did not hear about it. Still, it is strange that Correa is repeating 
the same protocol that Einstein and others showed was invalid. It was not 
convincing then, it still isn't, and there are many superior methods, so 
why keep doing the same experiment?!? It is as if all CF scientists were 
stuck in a time warp, still using precisely the same protocol P&F employed 
in 1989: bulk palladium, electrochemistry, an isoperibolic cell where only 
the electrolyte temperature is measured. If that were the case, I would not 
believe CF is real.

I am glad that cold fusion has been confirmed with a variety of different 
methods and calorimeter types! We will never find one single error that 
disproves all CF excess heat results. We would have to find a dozen 
different errors, which is much less likely. It would be like flipping a 
dozen coins and having them all come up "heads."

- Jed

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Subject: Re: Jed's comments on Reich's ORAC
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>Please see the Correas' comments about the quality and nature of the Marett
>twins' work -- in this reference, posted by me recently:
>
>
>******
>AKRONOS Publishing is pleased to announce that it has added to its website,
>http://www.aetherometry.com, the following new feature:
>
>
>
>              PULSE OF THE PLANET TAKEN TO TASK

Gene: Could you please copy the relevant paragraphs here? I cannot find 
"Maratt" in that document, and I cannot read through the document. It is 
incomprehensible. I have no idea who the authors are criticizing, which 
side of the debate they are on, what theories they refer to, and what on 
earth phrases such as "Demeo's manicheistic Saharasianism," "Matrist 
savages" or "armored patrist" might mean.

People who invent new words cannot expect to garner many readers. More 
people have praised James Joyce's "Ulysses" than read it, I'll bet. Perhaps 
these are old but obscure words. Academics used to enjoy flummoxing the 
audience with Latin words. A grad student in the Asian Studies Department 
at Cornell spent years learning Chinese. He was invited back to Oxford to 
give a lecture to the students and profs. He stuffed it full of Chinese 
phrases, giving the profs a taste of their own medicine.

- Jed

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You probably won't like this one, since it's entirely subjective (using
yourself as the instrument.)   However, it's fairly amazing, at least it
was for me.



In good summer weather when there is a small thunderstorm nearby, look at
the dark black underside of the storm.  Feel anything?  Feel something
like a cold, "fresh" feeling inside your chest and in your sinuses?  Now
look away, and that feeling totally vanishes.  Look at various parts of
the sky, and that feeling is still gone.  It's only there when looking at
the very dark blue-black part of the summer rainstorm.

I'd always noticed this effect, but put it down to illusion.  I assumed
that, as I looked at the storm, it was giving me memories of cold rain,
(sort of like looking at bright red orange, and thinking of fire.)

HOWEVER, I recently noticed something really weird.  While driving along
watching one of these storms through the open window (a really interesting
storm with rain shafts and green light deep in the darkest part), I turned
a corner...  and the "feeling" totally vanished. Suddenly it was like
looking at a photograph of a storm.  However, I was now watching the storm
through the windshield.  I ducked my head out the open car window, and the
"feeling" came back full force.

What. the. hell.

OK, so now I looked at the storm, then ducked my head sideways so I was
viewing the storm through the windshield again.  "Feeling"  vanishes
utterly.  Duck my head back and view it through the open window... and the
"feeling" switches on full blast.

?!!!!

Oh, and final tidbits: if I close my eyes or block my eyes with my hand,
the "feeling" also vanishes.  Whatever this is, it is associated with my
eyes, that's why I put it down to purely a psychology effect.

But it seems to be entirely blocked by the car windshield.  "Psychology"
isn't affected by a transparent object.  What the heck is going on?  It's
NOT like looking at the color red and imagining heat, since that's not
affected by a sheet of glass.

Aha!  While writing this I just realized that windshields aren't glass.
They are two glass layers with polymer sheet sandwitched within.  Does
this make a difference?

Damn, I wasn't thinking about this at the time.  I could have tried
rolling up the side window and compared that with the "shielding effect"
of the windshield (the side windows are tempered glass, not the "safety
glass"  polymer sandwich.)   If there is a difference, then maybe it's the
plastic which is the shield, not the glass.  (Shades of Russian Torsion
wave theory!)

Has anyone here ever noticed this effect before?



(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

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On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> That is a complicated and fascinating question! But I have gabbed about it
> here so often at such appalling length that if I start in again the readers
> are likely to rise up and smite me.

How about a two-sentence summary?  (Don't be like typical researcher who
says "you'll have to read my whole article and summarize it yourself.")

:)

As I recall, their main problems were assuming that the world would beat a
path to their door after their announcement, and also their assuming that
others would try to steal their work.


   "Don't worry about people stealing your ideas.  If your ideas are that
    good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats."  - Howard Aiken



(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 14:58:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Re-annexation of American colonies
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Having some OCR problems?

I thought it was helariouf.  Just as long as thofe folks don't try to
annex Texaf I will be fine. :-)  BTW Texas was never a Britifh colony.


--- Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:
> Nick Palmer wrote:
> 
> >For those who don't know, "S" used to be written
> >so it looked like an "F" in old documents...
> 
> Except at that end of a word, and it had no cross.
> 
> 
> >. . . importante than Americans' rights to drive SUVs on
> >cheap gaf.
> 
> Should be "cheap gafs," I think.
> 
> - Jed, confirmed pedant
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  6 15:15:32 2002
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Nick Palmer wrote:
> 
> Watch out Yanks. The Brits are fed up with the way you have been running
> wild for the last couple of hundred years. This is a planned Friends of the
> Earth local group action. For those who don't know, "S" used to be written
> so it looked like an "F" in old documents...

---
So, back then there was no difference between "cunnilinguf", "fellatio",
and penile-vaginal "fexual intercourfe"?

That is to say, "suck" equaled "fuck"?  
---
 
 
>  HEAR  YE
> 
> All Loyal subjects of her Britannic Majefty (and
> indeed all Gentlefolke with one halfpenny'worth of
> sense) are urgently required to QUELL THE MOST HEINOUS
> AND IMPUDENT REVOLT OF HER MAJEFTY'S AMERICAN
> COLONIES. This said revolt has now transgreffed all
> limits of follie, and the lately Rebelled Colonials
> have finally gone starke, staringe bonkers; becoming a
> Grave Danger, not only to themfelves  but also ye
> refte of the worlde. Their rebellion is now carried on
> againft all reafon, and all tranquil rule of law, to
> whit they have tolde ye refte of the world to go
> stuffe itself, they don't care if they do bring about
> ye finale end of the worlde by ye ever-increafing
> carbon emiffions and ye complete and entire screwinge
> up of ye globale climate. It is now quite clear that
> said rebellion can be endured no longer. All perfons,
> sound of mind, are required to affemble at Lord
> Grosvenor's Square (a renowned haunt of tranfatlantic
> sedition and mutinie) at  5  of the clocke, on ye 4th
> day of July (anniverfary of the late rebellion), in
> order to reftore said colonials to senfe, reafon and
> (of courfe) her majefty's dominion.
> 
> With refpect to her Great Nation's traditions of
> libertie, however, Her Britannic Majefty has
> gracioufly condescended to grant to her American
> subjects some limited degree of autonomy on fulfilment
> of the following conditions...
> 
> 1/ That their governance be not  influenced, waylaid
> or otherwife manipulated by particular and special
> interefts ...such as companies engaged in the mining
> of coal or drilling of oil.
> 
>  2/  That there be no bribes, inducements, offerings
> or donations from corporationes or other organifations
> got together for the purfuit of profit, to officers of
> state, legiflators, members of the congreffe or
> senate.
> 3/ That all affairs of state be guided by learned
> philofophers and men of science in pursuit of the
> common good, not by sectarian interest or parties
> motivated by gain (to whit that leaders of state heed
> the judgement of the National Academy of Sciences,
> before that of the Board of Exxon Mobil).
>  4/  That a mature and refpectful attitude to the
> other nations of the world be maintained at all time,
> with proper fulfilment of international obligations,
> due compliance to international treaties and on no
> account any abrogation or unilateral setting afide of
> the same.
> 5/ That there be recognition that the Colonies'
> domestic policies can impact the threatened global
> environment and thereby endanger the lives and
> livelihoods of people in other countries.
> 6/ (Therefore, with regard to the prior condition)
> that there be a reduction of the Colonies' CO2
> emiffions (currentlie 25% of global) to levels
> proportionate to their population (5% of global) ..ie
> to average per capita global rates (for a start..)
> 7/ That the Colonies maintaine a due senfe of balance
> and proportione in the apportioning and recognition of
> rights : per exempla the right of the world's poore
> not to suffer from floods, drought and famine is more
> importante than Americans' rights to drive SUVs on
> cheap gaf.
> 8/ That there be no more 'cowboy corporationes' of the
> Enron type, to which ende the accountes of all major
> American companies should be submitted for scrutiny by
> Her Majefty's 'Serious Fraud Office'. On no account
> should the ufe or poffession of paper-shredding
> machines be permitted to firms of bookkeepers or
> accountants.
> 9/ That there be repayment of 224 yeares back-tax on
> our tea (with compound interefte)..or elfe, otherwife,
> a commitment to fare trading practices with the refte
> of the world (for example removing their tariff on
> steel...otherwise we will dreff up as Indians and
> chuck THEIR steel in the sea), and on no account the
> ufe of political or economic power to force upon other
> states trading agreements favourable to the Colonies
> and their large corporationes but prejudiciale to the
> well being of the common populace of said states.
> 10/ That there be no 'prefident' or other perfon of
> authority without that he paff an IQ teft; and a
> 'current affairs' teft (sample queftion: who is the
> prefident of Pakiftan ?).
> 
> However, Her Majefty has now had a chance to thinke
> about it and reckons there's no chance of the 'yanks'
> (as ye feckleffe coloniales are sometime knowne)
> acceding to these juft and rightful conditions, thuf
> they definitely are not deferving of any kind of
> independence whatfoever..in shorte, the world will not
> miff its moft powerful 'banana-republic'..
> 
>  ..therefore all right-thinking perfons should
> assemble at Grosvenors's Square, (embaffy of the
> Revoltinge Colonials), from 5 pm (to 7.30pm),
> Thurfday, 4th July. Dreff code (optional) : red coats,
> three-cornered hats, 18th century.etc.
> 
> May Right and Justife prevail. Amen.
> 
> Campaign against Climate Change
> www.campaignagainstclimatechange.net
> campclchange yahoo.co.uk, 02088553327, 07903 316 331
> 
> PLEAFE DIFTRIBUTE SAID MEFFAGE FAR AND WIDE THROUGHOUT
> YE KNOWNE WORLDE


---
Filly wabbit, tricks are for quids. 
---

John Fields
Professional circuit designer
http://www.austininstruments.com
please add "nospam" in subject line to email

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Subject: Re: Jed's comments on Reich's ORAC
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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On 6/6/02 2:21 PM, "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

> Gene: Could you please copy the relevant paragraphs here? I cannot find
> "Maratt" in that document, and I cannot read through the document. It is
> incomprehensible. I have no idea who the authors are criticizing, which
> side of the debate they are on, what theories they refer to, and what on
> earth phrases such as "Demeo's manicheistic Saharasianism," "Matrist
> savages" or "armored patrist" might mean.
> 
> People who invent new words cannot expect to garner many readers. More
> people have praised James Joyce's "Ulysses" than read it, I'll bet. Perhaps
> these are old but obscure words. Academics used to enjoy flummoxing the
> audience with Latin words. A grad student in the Asian Studies Department
> at Cornell spent years learning Chinese. He was invited back to Oxford to
> give a lecture to the students and profs. He stuffed it full of Chinese
> phrases, giving the profs a taste of their own medicine.
> 
> - Jed


Find it yourself. The name is Marett, not Maratt -- in the section on the
orgone/aether motor.

The other nice critique of Douglas Marett is on the Labofex part of
www.aetherometry.com -- the section designated "The Correa/Reich Affair"

- Gene

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Gene,

I said:
> > Since it is a simple exercise in high school physics to "calibrate" the
> > Sterling motor (i.e. find rpms/watt) at least to a correct ballpark
figure,
> > I'm surprised that neither the Correas nor Ken or Gene has done this
yet.
>
> Most of our time has gone into far more robust "Stirling-like" engines
that
> have been built and tested.

That's all well and good, but calibrating the Stirling motor could be done
in an afternoon.

> Perhaps you and Jed overlooked the Correas' remark about their testing of
> the MM6 power, which will no doubt appear in future monographs by them
that
> will discuss these energetics. To wit -- from my earlier posting:

As with Jed, I did not overlook it.  However, your magnum opus of a post ran
to 36 single-spaced pages so I started skimming it and at this point:

> >From Dr. Paulo and Alexandra Correa:
> "Yes, one could do it with a maser,...

I started laughing so hard I had to stop.

But since you've reposted this small piece, I'll sort out the issues that
bother me.

> to continue somehow hidden from sight in the middle
> of a large yard and targeting the box.  But why bother?  Isn't nature
enough
> and that which WE are studying and hoping to use?  As you saw and the
videos
> demonstrate [Videos that I have viewed - EFM], the HYBORAC was placed in
the
> middle of the yard, in the same approximate location for days and nights.
> There are no radio towers around, and the nearest TV and microwave
> communications tower was built three years ago (before the AS2-05
> experiments) and stands ca 5/6 km away.

OK, now this is just ridiculous.  If Paulo can put a radio next to his ORAC
and tune in a station, then there is a local RF field present.  Faraday
cages null out RF on the inside of the box.  They do this by moving
electrons around--we call those "currents."  Except in perfect conductors,
currents produce heat.  Now, obviously, one radio station won't contribute
squat unless you happen to be right by it.  But presumably Paulo could tune
in more than one radio station there in Toronto?  And if he dragged a TV
into the yard, he could also tune in a TV station, right?  And if he has a
cell phone out there, he could also receive a call, right?  And there is a
tremendous amount of industrial power be shuttled around near Toronto too,
right?  All those houses, the factories, the office buildings, etc.  That's
a whopping load of 60 Hz AC current moving around in the vicinity of the
ORAC.  (all of this EM is all way out of phase with itself so the individual
electrons intercepting the "net" signal mostly just wobble around.)  At any
rate, since the Earth far outshines the sun at RF frequencies (by which I
mean everything from 1 Hz to microwave freqs), it is simply a matter of fact
that the ORACs are getting some of their heat from RF--if they weren't, they
wouldn't be Faraday cages.  So the critical question then becomes, how much
of this heat accounts for the measured delta-T?  Depending both on where the
ORAC is and when the ORAC is there, this heating may amount to nothing, or
it may amount to a sizeable percentage.  I have seen the Correa experimental
work described as "rigorous", but I have yet to see the rigor.  A genuinely
rigorous test requires that the RF contribution to the ORAC heating be
properly taken into account.  In the paper in IE #37, I searched in vain for
even any recognition that this heating was there.  Even one sentence saying
words to the effect that "the ambient RF contribution to the heating of the
ORAC is negligible" would have at least let us know they'd considered this.
I have to agree with Jed that going outside and not seeing any radio towers
nearby doesn't meet the rigor test.  Now, I am not saying that the heating
is all due to RF--perhaps next to none of it is--but this contribution still
has to be account for.  And so do the rest of the potential sources of error
described elsewhere, mostly by Jed.

>  There were no masers or hidden
> sources of radiation.  Nor were there any when Reich discovered the
thermal
> anomaly in Faraday cages and ORACs.

But there was RF and there was electric power, and most, perhaps all, of
Jed's concerns, too.

>  From our latest work and calculations,
> the Stirling Motor was observed to perform work in the range of 20 to 500
mW

Now this just pisses me off.  20 to 500mw!?  C'mon Gene--if you were having
people over, and your wife asked how many were coming, and you told her
"Between 1 and 25," how well would that go over?  In one afternoon (you
wouldn't even need the whole afternoon and you already have everything you
need at NERL to do it) you could get a wattage to RPM calibration on the
Stirling motor that would be tons better than this.  If rigor is to be
asserted, then rigor must be present.

> (it beats many a CF cell's claims).  Putting the efficiency at near 8%
> (see our last Stirling report on nighttime operation) and the delta-T at
80%
> of a To-T value of 30°C, one easily realizes that the sensible heat
evolved
> inside the boxes cannot account for the work of the Stirling motor.

The rest of us dummies do not easily realize this.

> Evidently, its action must tap the latent heat of the box, likely acting
> upon the top of the box as a molecular pump that promotes conversion of
> latent into sensible heats.

There is nothing "evident" about this either.

I also find the constant references to "delta-T" uninterpretable in this
context.  Gene, you of all people, what with your engineering background in
aerospace, must know that.  You can have a plasma at 2,000,000 degrees that
doesn't have enough heat in it to boil a thimbleful of water.  I don't care
about the temperature--I want to know how much heat energy appears.  This is
so simple to do.  You calibrate the  Stirling motor--you put it on the
ORAC--say it runs constantly at 50 rpm for ten weeks and you know it
requires 20 mW to keep it running at the speed. THAT would really tell us
something and THAT would be an experiment I would rush into the basement to
try out (and I'd be happy to have to buy one of those nifty Stirling motors
to do it).

But as it stands, I have to agree with Jed (and you know Jed and I will
never be buddies) on most of his points (although he thinks the RF
contribution is negligible)--what I've seen is a poorly thought-out
experiment, sloppily executed, with a host of mundane heat sources either
unnoticed or simply ignored, utterly inadequate reporting of procedure,
unnecessary invention of inadequately defined terminology (i.e.
"gobbledy-gook"), lack of null or "blank" testing, and all the rest.  I will
concede that Einstein and Infeld came up with too "pat" of an answer that
they didn't follow up on--but Einstein was a _theorist_, Gene.  They always
do that.

Again, none of this means that there's nothing there; maybe the Correa's are
right after all.  But since you've invested a great deal of passion into
getting Paulo's work noticed, then you should try to get them to "clean up
their act" with respect to the experimental protocol matters.  Otherwise you
should just lay low, try to get them funding, and start manufacturing
miracle machines in a year or two.

Jed didn't care for Paulo already when I was at IE, but I had no feelings
about him one way or the other.  (And no professional conflict, either.
Shoot--I haven't even put a lab back together in my basement yet--I came
back to Michigan, got my old job back at the hospital, and I write SF novels
in my spare time.)  But once Paulo's star began to rise at IE, other
scientists started calling me to ask me what I thought of this work.  I have
the same problems with it that they did--it's the gobbledy-gook problem.
They've got this aetherometry website--it has free stuff and it has pay-for
stuff.  The free stuff is supposed to hook the reader into wanting to look
at the pay stuff.  It doesn't.

One other thing--you do talk about this "electroscope anomaly" with the
ORAC.  Would you mind describing that "anomalous effect" clearly to us?
What I've heard of it so far makes it sound like an entirely mundane, easily
explained effect, so I assume there must be more to it.

Jeff





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Subject: Re: Jed's comments on Reich's ORAC
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>Find it yourself. The name is Marett, not Maratt . . .

That explains why I couldn't find it!


>-- in the section on the orgone/aether motor.

I can't find that section either. The index seems chaotic. In any case, the 
statements about Marett in the parts I have located are incomprehensible 
gobbledygook. As far as I can make out, the author is criticizing Marett 
for his theoretical interpretation, not his experimental methods or 
results. The author does not address the thermal gradient artifact Marett 
discovered, which clearly, simply and conclusively shows that Marett's 
results are not anomalous excess heat. This test could be replicated easily 
by any other "Orgone" investigator, or they could also use a calorimeter. 
You almost get a sense they do not *want* to learn the truth. They want to 
drag out a sterile, useless argument by not doing experiments. They 
resemble the anti-cold fusion "skeptics" -- obsessed with theory, unwilling 
to do a direct experiment that will test their beliefs.

This probably explains the results, as Einstein said. Marett explained to me:


"It is with much consternation that I must contradict myself and reverse 
the Reichian line . . . [O]ver the past few years, I have been
improving my experimental technique and controls in order to better
understand Reich's phenomenon. In the case of To-T, better controls and 
elimination of artifacts has instead led to the temperature difference
becoming vanishingly small. In the past 2 years, I have obtained negative
after negative result in Reich's experiments . . ."


Many CF claims have vanished the same way. The "skeptics" are partly right 
about that. I admire Marett's dedication, but he too should have done other 
experiments years ago. Colin Quinnely refers sarcastically to researchers 
who believe in their own "perfect experiment." His point -- and my point -- 
is that no experiment is perfect. Every technique has shortcomings and 
blind spots. A result is never certain until it has been verified using 
other instruments and other techniques.

- Jed

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Jed,

> 6. The Correas report that Reich found the inside of the box was cooler
> than the surroundings, and the top of the box was warmer. This suggests
the
> box acts as some sort of heat pump rather than an energy producing
machine.
> I have no idea why it would do that. Perhaps the layers of metals,
> dielectrical materials and wood have some sort of Peltier-like effect?
That
> would seem to violate the Second Law. Anyway, it brings up two major
problems:

Well, assuming you have some kind of heat source, and a good heat conductor
(metal) immersed in a poor conductor (air), and these in a force gradient
(the gravity field), yielding a system not in equilibrium.  But your point
is well taken--you put the whole system in a container and see if it
produces any heat.

Jeff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  6 19:13:36 2002
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Subject: Re: Jed's comments on Reich's ORAC
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> Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
>
> >Please see the Correas' comments about the quality and nature of the
Marett
> >twins' work -- in this reference, posted by me recently:

Why?  The Correa's own work is largely quality-free, so Paulo is hardly a
judge of sound experimental protocol.

> >              PULSE OF THE PLANET TAKEN TO TASK
>
> Gene: Could you please copy the relevant paragraphs here? I cannot find
> "Maratt" in that document, and I cannot read through the document. It is
> incomprehensible. I have no idea who the authors are criticizing, which
> side of the debate they are on, what theories they refer to, and what on
> earth phrases such as "Demeo's manicheistic Saharasianism," "Matrist
> savages" or "armored patrist" might mean.

If Paulo would spend more time being a physicist and less time being a
screed factory, he'd make a good deal more progress.

Jeff


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Subject: Re: Jed's comments on Reich's ORAC
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Jed,

You wrote:

> Still, it is strange that Correa is repeating
> the same protocol that Einstein and others showed was invalid. It was not
> convincing then, it still isn't, and there are many superior methods, so
> why keep doing the same experiment?!?

Since he already "knows" the result he is supposed to get,
he keeps repeating the methodology that yields that result,
since it must be the only "correct" one.

This sort of circular reasoning is rampant pretty much across the board
in weird-science land.

Jeff

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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 22:54:03 -0700
Subject: Re: Jed's comments on Reich's ORAC
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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On 6/6/02 4:06 PM, "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

> Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
> 
>> Find it yourself. The name is Marett, not Maratt . . .
> 
> That explains why I couldn't find it!
> 
> 
>> -- in the section on the orgone/aether motor.
> 


> I can't find that section either. The index seems chaotic.

Chaotic to you,  but not to a careful, truly interested reader with some
familiarity (by study) with the history of Reich. You are an antagonistic
dilettante in this area, looking for mud to sling at your perceived villains
-- as usual. You have found what you believe to be nice mud balls, which you
THINK are provided by Douglas Marett. They sure are mud, but they are devoid
of any meaning or value.

I invite you and other readers to review the sorry history of Douglas
Marett's behavior in 1996.  This may be found at:

http://www.aetherometry.com/pagd/CorreaReich.html

With this appalling history of Marett in mind, I am sorry that Colin Quinney
introduced Douglas Marett's vacuous statements onto this forum -- along with
some digs at the Correas for good measure.


>In any case, the 
> statements about Marett in the parts I have located are incomprehensible
> gobbledygook.

You are a dilettante in this area from the word go.  It is not gobbledygook.

> As far as I can make out, the author is criticizing Marett
> for his theoretical interpretation, not his experimental methods or
> results. The author does not address the thermal gradient artifact Marett
> discovered, 

Marett has discovered nothing at all.  Measuring the floor-to-ceiling
gradient and correlating it with anything is laughable.   The section
referred to is on orgone/aether motors, not the Reich-Einstein experiment.
My reference to this new posting by the Correas and to the 1996 history of
Marett was to educate readers on the true quality of mind, intent, and
behavior of Douglas Marett.


>which clearly, simply and conclusively shows that Marett's
> results are not anomalous excess heat.

BELIEVE anything you want.  His experiments are not conclusive -- where are
they precisely described and quantitated, to the extent done by the Correas
in IE#37?  Answer: nowhere. Where is addressed by Marett the Correas' use of
the critical cardboard pedestal under the Faraday cage (with identical
cross-section) as one control, which eliminates air currents from below onto
the lower surface and thus an outstanding gradient between the two
horizontal faces of the Faraday cage?

\
>This test could be replicated easily
> by any other "Orgone" investigator, or they could also use a calorimeter.
> You almost get a sense they do not *want* to learn the truth.

This is pure bull. You are so out of line it boggles the mind.

>They want to 
> drag out a sterile, useless argument by not doing experiments. They
> resemble the anti-cold fusion "skeptics" -- obsessed with theory, unwilling
> to do a direct experiment that will test their beliefs.

This is truly absurd. Since you apparently think you are capable  of
conversing  with expertise on matters of thermal experiments, you have
abolished from consideration all the other experiments referred to in their
monographs. You, like anti-cold fusion skeptics, find one area that you
THINK you understand, and you attack it with massive ignorance and foolish
hypotheses. You make false analogies  with "neutrinos" etc.
> 
> This probably explains the results, as Einstein said. Marett explained to me:
> 
> 
> "It is with much consternation that I must contradict myself and reverse
> the Reichian line . . . [O]ver the past few years, I have been
> improving my experimental technique and controls in order to better
> understand Reich's phenomenon. In the case of To-T, better controls and
> elimination of artifacts has instead led to the temperature difference
> becoming vanishingly small. In the past 2 years, I have obtained negative
> after negative result in Reich's experiments . . ."

Marett, if the truth be  as indicated in the Correa/Reich Affair cited
above, and I have no reason to doubt the quotations and history, is utterly
inept -- but, of course, since the "enemy of my enemy is my friend", you
embrace him.
> 
> 
> Many CF claims have vanished the same way. The "skeptics" are partly right
> about that. I admire Marett's dedication, but he too should have done other
> experiments years ago.

He is a non-entity who should disappear from the scene as quickly as
possible, and you have stumbled yourself into a demonstrable quagmire of
stupidity.  If you do not trust my view point about Marett, perhaps you will
trust Mike Carrell's judgment of Marett's behavior -- he is cited in the
article: 
 Again:

http://www.aetherometry.com/pagd/CorreaReich.html




> Colin Quinnely refers sarcastically to researchers
> who believe in their own "perfect experiment." His point -- and my point --
> is that no experiment is perfect.

That is quite correct and the Correas are the best examples I know of
scientists who are very self-critical and who are very quick to answer
SINCERE criticisms of their experiments and theory.


>Every technique has shortcomings and
> blind spots.

Indeed. And the Correas have been exemplary in rooting as many of these out
as they can. They do not claim perfection. They are open to criticism, but
only from those who examine their work carefully, as you and Marett most
certainly have not.


> A result is never certain until it has been verified using
> other instruments and other techniques.

Yes, and relying on ONE person -- such as Marett, who turns out to be less
than pristine -- to seek support for your ideas and battles, is quite
dangerous.
> 
> - Jed

- Gene
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun  6 21:18:35 2002
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> Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
> I invite you and other readers to review the sorry history of Douglas
> Marett's behavior in 1996.

I don't know Marett, and I'm automatically suspicious of anyone who would
spend years studying Reich.  But the guy could be an axe murderer and it
still won't improve Paulo's experimental technique.

> >In any case, the
> > statements about Marett in the parts I have located are incomprehensible
> > gobbledygook.
>
> You are a dilettante in this area from the word go.  It is not
gobbledygook.

A "dilettante" no less?  My my.  Jed doesn't have to be a stable boy to
recognize horsesh*t.

> Marett has discovered nothing at all.  Measuring the floor-to-ceiling
> gradient and correlating it with anything is laughable.

No it isn't--if he varied the gradient and found no correlation to the hot
spot temperature, this would be very meaningful.
Indeed, it would go a long way toward eliminating the gradient as a source
of error.

> >which clearly, simply and conclusively shows that Marett's
> > results are not anomalous excess heat.
>
> BELIEVE anything you want.  His experiments are not conclusive -- where
are
> they precisely described and quantitated, to the extent done by the
Correas
> in IE#37?

The paper in IE#37 isn't very good.  The Correa's do a correlation showing
that the temperature difference of the two thermometers could not be the
result of chance, but so what?  No one argues that it is.  The argument is
about whether or not the hot spot is an aetheric effect or an apparatus
artifact.

> Marett, if the truth be  as indicated in the Correa/Reich Affair cited
> above, and I have no reason to doubt the quotations and history, is
utterly
> inept -- but, of course, since the "enemy of my enemy is my friend", you
> embrace him.

I can't address Jed's motives, Gene, but it seems pretty clear that the
editor of IE isn't likely to welcome papers critical of Reich and the
Correas.

> (T)he Correas have been exemplary in rooting as many of these out
> as they can. They do not claim perfection. They are open to criticism, but
> only from those who examine their work carefully, as you and Marett most
> certainly have not.

Seems to me that they, and you, regard criticism of their work as certain
evidence that the criticizer hasn't examined their work carefully.

> Yes, and relying on ONE person -- such as Marett, who turns out to be less
> than pristine -- to seek support for your ideas and battles, is quite
> dangerous.

Jed isn't relying on one person--nearly everyone he's asked, except for you,
agrees that the Correa's work is poorly executed, logically inconsistent,
and written up in gobbledy-gook.

Jeff


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Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 02:12:50 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Riech books
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Ed Storms posted;

>should apply some logic to the problem based on experience with similar
>energy conversion methods.  Perhaps this has been done. I will have to
>go back and reread the Reich book.
>
Good idea Ed. While your at it, check out the beach sand experiment. 
As I recall, Reich heated beach sand till it glowed and exposed it to 
a orgone accumulator, He got sun tanned through his clothing. I've 
always wondered about that. Another thing that you can think about is 
plants, seeds, split into two groups, one placed in proximity to the 
box are said to do better. Then there is the cloud buster. I met a 
man who claimed he could get that effect to work.

Hum, I wonder if this might aid in that second Green Revolution, see 
my other post.

-- 

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Subject: Re: Green Revolution?
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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: Green Revolution?</title></head><body>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite>
<blockquote>Posted on Thu, Jun. 06, 2002<br>
<br>
<br>
A new 'Green Revolution' could end global starvation, chronic
hunger<br>
<br>
<b>BY GEORGE MCGOVERN AND RUDY BOSCHWITZ<br>
Commentators<br>
</b><br>
Our only hope of staving off a global pandemic of starvation and
chronic hunger in the first half of this new century is to revive the
Green Revolution that saved an estimated 1 billion lives in Asia,
Africa and Latin America in the 1960s and 1970s.<br>
<br>
Thanks to breathtaking advances in high-yield farming, soil
conservation and genetically enhanced seeds, the world has the right
weapons in its humanitarian arsenal. The only question remaining is,
does it have the will?<br>
<br>
The Green Revolution promoted by Nobel Peace Prize laureate Norman
Borlaug not only saved hundreds of million of lives but it also
brought markedly higher yields that spared an estimated 12 million
square miles of wilderness from conversion to farmland. That's equal
to the total land area of the United States, Europe and South
America.<br>
<br>
That land was saved because American and Third World researchers
showed poor farmers in countries like India, Mexico and Pakistan how
to increase yields by increasing productivity rather than bringing
additional acreage under cultivation.<br>
<br>
Leading demographers around the globe are virtually unanimous in their
prediction that the world's population will increase nearly 50 percent
- from 6.2 billion to more than 9 billion people - before
declining birth rates in developing nations begin to stabilize by
mid-century.<br>
<br>
Getting from an era marked by starvation, hunger and malnutrition to
one of relative plenty will be difficult, but it can be done.<br>
<br>
Higher-yield research in biology, ecology, chemistry and the
relatively new field of biotechnology is the only way to pull the
world's downtrodden masses - the 2 billion or so who go to bed
hungry every night - back from the brink and onto the path toward a
better life.<br>
<br>
Those people and their yet-unborn sons and daughters will require far
more meat, fruits, vegetables, dairy products and grains than the
world currently produces. Many of those without hope will become prime
candidates for recruitment by terrorists.<br>
<br>
We're proud to be part of a new coalition working to end world hunger
before it ends the world. Our members include Borlaug and another
Nobel Peace Prize winner, former Costa Rican President Oscar Arias,
who won the award in 1986 for his valiant efforts to bring peace to
war-ravaged Central America.<br>
<br>
Our coalition believes we must be able to double world food and forest
product harvests over the next five decades without destroying more of
our wildlands and losing the Earth's vital biodiversity.<br>
<br>
=46orests are a very important part of the equation. We're already
farming 37 percent of the Earth's land area, and forests are the only
arable areas not being farmed. Unfortunately, as President Arias
points out, 2 billion of the Earth's poor live in or near the huge
forests that are home to three-fourths of the world's wildlife
species.<br>
<br>
Without a new Green Revolution, the only way they can feed their
families is to burn down more forests to cultivate farmland and to
hunt more wild animals for needed proteins.<br>
<br>
America's current farm surpluses may not be enough to feed all of the
hungry in the world today, but increased crop yields from biotech
agriculture will go along away toward doing so in the future.<br>
<br>
Bio-food is the most efficient way of delivering daily doses of key
nutrients and vitamins not found in the diets of millions of
malnourished children and adults scattered throughout Africa, Asia and
Latin America.<br>
<br>
=46or instance, the development of a new strain of rice rich in vitamin
A will prevent the deaths of as many as 2 million children a year as
well as 500,000 cases of blindness caused by vitamin A deficiency.<br>
<br>
High-yield farming and biotechnology can work hand in hand to help
fend off repeats of Rwanda, where the plague of inadequate farmland
sparked ethnic hatreds that resulted in an outbreak of genocide that
brutally slaughtered more than 1 million people.</blockquote>
<blockquote><br>
The question is not whether we can afford to make this investment -
the real question should be whether we can afford not to?<br>
<br>
The United States and its allies in the affluent, industrialized world
must accept this challenge now. Time - literally - is running out.
A world without hunger is the only really secure world.</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<hr size=3D"1"></blockquote>
<blockquote><br>
<i>McGovern, is a former Democratic senator from South Dakota and
presidential candidate, is the United Nations' &quot;ambassador to the
hungry.&quot; Boschwitz is a former Republican senator from Minnesota
and heads the advisory board for the Center for Global Food Issues,
1015th 18th Street NW, Suite 300, Washington, DC 20036. Distributed by
Knight Ridder News Service.</i><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<hr size=3D"1" width=3D"97%"></blockquote>
<blockquote><br></blockquote>
<blockquote align=3D"center">=A9 2001 pioneerpress and wire service
sources. All Rights Reserved.<br>
http://www.twincities.com<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite><br></blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite><br>
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(00035A59)<br>
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<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<x-sigsep><pre>-- 
</pre></x-sigsep>
</body>
</html>

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Hi All,=20

> Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
> I invite you and other readers to review the sorry history of Douglas
> Marett's behavior in 1996.

>>Jeff Kooistra wrote:=20

>>I don't know Marett, and I'm automatically suspicious of anyone who =
would
>>spend years studying Reich. But the guy could be an axe murderer and =
it
>>still won't improve Paulo's experimental technique.=20

I think there was a BEWARE warning before I joined this list, and now I =
can see why...!=20

If one wants to be ranted on by the Correa's one simply has to disagree =
with them (or now not even that, seeing the growing list of victims on =
their website).If you don't believe me- try it.=20

Anyway, insults have to be water off a duck's back on this list, judging =
from what I have read recently.

Jeff Kooistra wrote to Eugene:=20

>>One other thing--you do talk about this "electroscope anomaly" with =
the
>>ORAC. Would you mind describing that "anomalous effect" clearly to us?
>>What I've heard of it so far makes it sound like an entirely mundane, =
easily
>>explained effect, so I assume there must be more to it.=20

Actually, I wouldn't mind just sticking to the science for a minute. =
Jeff has brought up the point of the electroscopic anomaly in the ORAC, =
which I have done some work on recently. Reich claimed that an =
electroscope discharges more slowly in the ORAC than in the open air, =
and that this was evidence for the existence of the "orgone". This =
effect certainly is true, as anyone can prove to themselves by =
conducting this simple experiment. However, is this evidence for the =
existence of the "orgone"?=20

As Jeff points out, there is a far more mundane explanation. To me, this =
would be that an electroscope, being an ionization detector, discharges =
more slowly inside a box, such as a metal box, because it blocks ions =
from discharging the leaf. Atmospheric ions are mobile and have a =
lifetime of only about 50-300 seconds (according to the book Atmospheric =
Electricity). Positive and negative ions are present in the air at the =
same time, with the ratio of pos. to neg. being on average about 1.2 to =
1. The number of ions per cm3 has a broad range depending on the =
altitude and weather conditions, but is generally between near zero to =
as high as 80,000/cm3.=20

I decided to test the hypothesis that atmospheric ions were responsible =
for Reich's "electrostatic anomaly". I purchased an Alphalabs calibrated =
air ion counter earlier this year and began measuring the positive and =
negative ion levels in various material enclosures. My results were as =
follows:=20

Jan 29, 2002 Indoor Ion Count: ions/cm3 weather - overcast all day. Ions =
were measured on a tabletop in a second floor office. Each value is an =
average of 10 consecutive readings. Units are ions/cm3.

                Neg. /Pos.

8:50AM -368 /+768

9:15AM -808 /+1031

11AM -1038 /+1315

1:40PM -1685 /+1973

3:30PM -1554 /+1569

5:30PM -550 /+826

11PM -836 /+1014 rain

Ion measurement in different Enclosures:

The 1 fold ORAC was a galv. iron box inside of a wooden box (1 cubic =
foot). The wooden box was also tested alone, as was the wooden box. All =
boxes had their top open unless stated otherwise. All ion counts are an =
average of 10 consecutive readings. Units are ions/cm3

Naked Counter /Metal Box/ Wooden Box/ 1 fold ORAC

Neg. Pos. / Neg. Pos./ Neg. Pos. / Neg. Pos.

8:50AM 368 768/ 239 269 / 187 230 / 258 265

9:15AM 808 1031

11AM 1038 1315 /297 350/ 331 359 /289 283

1:40PM 1685 1973/ 435 338 /369 361 /323 421

3:30PM 1554 1569/ 244 298 /337 273 /269 352

5:30PM 550 826 /190 153 /204 205 /198 186

11PM 836 1014 /177 148/ 119 176 /141 112

As a general trend, it can be seen that the atmospheric ions of both =
signs reaching the counter are highest when the counter is not enclosed. =
A wooden box blocks a substantial number of ions of both signs from =
reaching the counter, and a metal box a little more.

Effect of a strong Fan on Ion Count when blowing into a metal Box: Ion =
counter is in the box (negative ions measured)

3:45PM=20

No Fan =3D -206 ions/cm3

Fan with box =3D -983 ions/cm3

No Box =3D -1083 ions/cm3=20

In this simple experiment, air circulation into the box brought the ion =
level counted almost to that outside the box.=20

The suggestion of these straightforward observations is that both wood =
and metal enclosures substantially block air ions of both signs from =
getting into the enclosures, with metal enclosures being the best. The =
results are consistent with my observations of electroscopic discharge =
rates in non-metal and metal enclosures, where an electroscope inside a =
box made of cardboard and insulation had a slower rate of discharge than =
an electroscope in the open air. An electroscope in a metal box with =
insulation was usually the slowest.=20

Although Reich considered the possibility that the effect was due to air =
ions, he concluded that it was not, since he found that a fan did not =
affect the rate of discharge of his electroscope. When I have tried =
this, the electroscope usually discharges faster (one has to be careful =
not to destroy the electroscope with the wind!).

Thus, blocking of atmospheric ions may be a more plausible explanation =
for the slower electroscopic discharge rate in ORACs . It has been =
argued that because both positively and negatively charged electroscopes =
discharge slower in the ORAC, the effect can not be due to ions. =
However, as can be seen from the results above, there are both positive =
and negative ions present in the air at the same time which can =
discharge an electroscope of either sign, inside a box or out. The =
weather dependence of the electroscopic discharge rate can also be =
easily explained by the known fact that clouds carry with them large =
numbers of both positive and negative ions, and that the onset of cloud =
cover would thus supply more ions to discharge an electroscope faster. =
During fair weather, ion numbers drop to very low levels indeed, and =
this could likely account for the apparent discharge arrest. A very nice =
demonstration of the effect of cloud cover on outdoor ion levels =
(showing diurnal variation as well) can be seen at:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/GarwellK/box.htm

I am not aware of anyone before who has measured the ion levels inside =
an ORAC with a counter, and I think this should be considered as a =
serious explanation for this anomaly.=20

Am I wrong?

Doug Marett M.Sc.






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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4728.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Hi All, </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&gt; Eugene F. Mallove =
wrote:<BR>&gt; I=20
invite you and other readers to review the sorry history of =
Douglas<BR>&gt;=20
Marett's behavior in 1996.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&gt;&gt;Jeff Kooistra wrote: =
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&gt;&gt;I don't know Marett, =
and I'm=20
automatically suspicious of anyone who would<BR>&gt;&gt;spend years =
studying=20
Reich. But the guy could be an axe murderer and it<BR>&gt;&gt;still =
won't=20
improve Paulo's experimental technique. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>I think there was a BEWARE =
warning before=20
I joined this list, and now I can see why...! </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>If one wants to be ranted on =
by the=20
Correa's one simply has to disagree with them (or now not even that, =
seeing the=20
growing list of victims on their website).If you don't believe me- try =
it.=20
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Anyway, insults have to be =
water off a=20
duck's back on this list, judging from what I have read =
recently.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Jeff Kooistra wrote to =
Eugene:=20
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&gt;&gt;One other thing--you =
do talk=20
about this "electroscope anomaly" with the<BR>&gt;&gt;ORAC. Would you =
mind=20
describing that "anomalous effect" clearly to us?<BR>&gt;&gt;What I've =
heard of=20
it so far makes it sound like an entirely mundane, =
easily<BR>&gt;&gt;explained=20
effect, so I assume there must be more to it. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Actually, I wouldn't mind =
just sticking=20
to the science for a minute. Jeff has brought up the point of the =
electroscopic=20
anomaly in the ORAC, which I have done some work on recently. Reich =
claimed that=20
an electroscope discharges more slowly in the ORAC than in the open air, =
and=20
that this was evidence for the existence of the "orgone". This effect =
certainly=20
is true, as anyone can prove to themselves by conducting this simple =
experiment.=20
However, is this evidence for the existence of the "orgone"? </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>As Jeff points out, there is =
a far more=20
mundane explanation. To me, this would be that an electroscope, being an =

ionization detector, discharges more slowly inside a box, such as a =
metal box,=20
because it blocks ions from discharging the </FONT><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
size=3D3>leaf. Atmospheric ions are mobile and have a lifetime of only =
about=20
50-300 seconds (according to the book Atmospheric Electricity). Positive =
and=20
negative ions are present in the air at the same time, with the ratio of =
pos. to=20
neg. being on average about 1.2 to 1. The number of ions per cm3 has a =
broad=20
range depending on the altitude and weather conditions, but is generally =
between=20
near zero to as high as 80,000/cm3. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>I decided to test the =
hypothesis that=20
atmospheric ions were responsible for Reich's "electrostatic anomaly". I =

purchased an Alphalabs calibrated air ion counter earlier this year and =
began=20
measuring the positive and negative ion levels in various material =
enclosures.=20
My results were as follows: </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Jan 29, 2002 Indoor Ion =
Count: ions/cm3=20
weather - overcast all day. Ions were measured on a tabletop in a second =
floor=20
office. Each value is an average of 10 consecutive readings. Units are=20
ions/cm3.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Neg. /Pos.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>8:50AM -368 /+768</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>9:15AM -808 /+1031</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>11AM -1038 /+1315</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>1:40PM -1685 =
/+1973</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>3:30PM -1554 =
/+1569</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>5:30PM -550 /+826</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>11PM -836 /+1014 =
rain</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Ion measurement in different=20
Enclosures:</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>The 1 fold ORAC was a galv. =
iron box=20
inside of a wooden box (1 cubic foot). The wooden box was also tested =
alone, as=20
was the wooden box. All boxes had their top open unless stated =
otherwise. All=20
ion counts are an average of 10 consecutive readings. Units are=20
ions/cm3</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Naked Counter /Metal Box/ =
Wooden Box/ 1=20
fold ORAC</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Neg. Pos. / Neg. Pos./ Neg. =
Pos. / Neg.=20
Pos.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>8:50AM 368 768/ 239 269 / 187 =
230 / 258=20
265</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>9:15AM 808 1031</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>11AM 1038 1315 /297 350/ 331 =
359 /289=20
283</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>1:40PM 1685 1973/ 435 338 =
/369 361 /323=20
421</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>3:30PM 1554 1569/ 244 298 =
/337 273 /269=20
352</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>5:30PM 550 826 /190 153 /204 =
205 /198=20
186</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>11PM 836 1014 /177 148/ 119 =
176 /141=20
112</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>As a general trend, it can be =
seen that=20
the atmospheric ions of both signs reaching the counter are highest when =
the=20
counter is not enclosed. A wooden box blocks a substantial number of =
ions of=20
both signs from reaching the counter, and a metal box a little =
more.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Effect of a strong Fan on Ion =
Count when=20
blowing into a metal Box: Ion counter is in the box (negative ions=20
measured)</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>3:45PM </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>No Fan =3D -206 =
ions/cm3</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Fan with box =3D -983 =
ions/cm3</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>No Box =3D -1083 ions/cm3 =
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>In this simple experiment, =
air=20
circulation into the box brought the ion level counted almost to that =
outside=20
the box. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>The suggestion of these =
straightforward=20
observations is that both wood and metal enclosures substantially block =
air ions=20
of both signs from getting into the enclosures, with metal enclosures =
being the=20
best. The results are consistent with my observations of electroscopic =
discharge=20
rates in non-metal and metal enclosures, where an electroscope inside a =
box made=20
of cardboard and insulation had a slower rate of discharge than an =
electroscope=20
in the open air. An electroscope in a metal box with insulation was =
usually the=20
slowest. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Although Reich considered the =
possibility=20
that the effect was due to air ions, he concluded that it was not, since =
he=20
found that a fan did not affect the rate of discharge of his =
electroscope. When=20
I have tried this, the electroscope usually discharges faster (one has =
to be=20
careful not to destroy the electroscope with the wind!).</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Thus, blocking of atmospheric =
ions may be=20
a more plausible explanation for the slower electroscopic discharge rate =
in=20
ORACs . It has been argued that because both positively and negatively =
charged=20
electroscopes discharge slower in the ORAC, the effect can not be due to =
ions.=20
However, as can be seen from the results above, there are both positive =
and=20
negative ions present in the air at the same time which can discharge an =

electroscope of either sign, inside a box or out. The weather dependence =
of the=20
electroscopic discharge rate can also be easily explained by the known =
fact that=20
clouds carry with them large numbers of both positive and negative ions, =
and=20
that the onset of cloud cover would thus supply more ions to discharge =
an=20
electroscope faster. During fair weather, ion numbers drop to very low =
levels=20
indeed, and this could likely account for the apparent discharge arrest. =
A very=20
nice demonstration of the effect of cloud cover on outdoor ion levels =
(showing=20
diurnal variation as well) can be seen at:</FONT></P><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><A=20
href=3D"http://members.lycos.co.uk/GarwellK/box.htm">http://members.lycos=
.co.uk/GarwellK/box.htm</A></FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>I am =
not aware of=20
anyone before who has measured the ion levels inside an ORAC with a =
counter, and=20
I think this should be considered as a serious explanation for this=20
anomaly.</FONT> </FONT></P></FONT><FONT size=3D2>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Am I wrong?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Doug Marett M.Sc.</FONT></P>
<P><BR></P></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 01:01:52 2002
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nick7 itl.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020606114639.031ee8f8 mail.DIRECTVInternet.com>
Subject: Re: Re-annexation of American colonies
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 08:58:23 +0100
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Jed, confirmed pedant, wrote:

<<Except at that end of a word, and it had no cross.>>

at _the_end of a word, surely?

Nick, also a voice recognition (ViaVoice) software victim



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 04:47:23 2002
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Subject: Re: Jed's comments on Reich's ORAC
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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On 6/6/02 6:53 PM, "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com> wrote:

> Since he already "knows" the result he is supposed to get,
> he keeps repeating the methodology that yields that result,
> since it must be the only "correct" one.

Nonsense by someone who has not read the literature.
> 
> This sort of circular reasoning is rampant pretty much across the board
> in weird-science land.
> 
> Jeff

_Gene
> 
> 

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Subject: Re: Jed's comments on Reich's ORAC
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On 6/6/02 6:59 PM, "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com> wrote:

>> Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
>> 
>>> Please see the Correas' comments about the quality and nature of the
> Marett
>>> twins' work -- in this reference, posted by me recently:
> 
> Why?  The Correa's own work is largely quality-free, so Paulo is hardly a
> judge of sound experimental protocol.
> 

Spoken like a true science bigot -- -Kooistra's comment rivals those of Park
and Rothwell, which is tough to do. Politics makes strange bedfellows.

Oh, for the good old days when Kooistra couldn't stand the ground Jed
Rothwell walked on!

Hey, Jeff, how's the guru business going these days? Find any new 'world's
smartest man' supposedly connected with black projects whom you've predicted
in your science fiction stories?  The latter is an 'inside joke' so to
speak, but the man's name is Greg Hawkins Kirk (or whatever combination you
wish), in case any other group has had the misfortune of having been
infiltrated by this guy.  It was good to have fired both Kooistra and GHK
from Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. on the same day.

- Gene Mallove


>>>              PULSE OF THE PLANET TAKEN TO TASK
>> 
>> Gene: Could you please copy the relevant paragraphs here? I cannot find
>> "Maratt" in that document, and I cannot read through the document. It is
>> incomprehensible. I have no idea who the authors are criticizing, which
>> side of the debate they are on, what theories they refer to, and what on
>> earth phrases such as "Demeo's manicheistic Saharasianism," "Matrist
>> savages" or "armored patrist" might mean.
> 
> If Paulo would spend more time being a physicist and less time being a
> screed factory, he'd make a good deal more progress.
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 05:16:06 2002
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Subject: Re: Jed's comments on Reich's ORAC
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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On 6/6/02 9:15 PM, "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com> wrote:

>> Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
>> I invite you and other readers to review the sorry history of Douglas
>> Marett's behavior in 1996.
> 
> I don't know Marett, and I'm automatically suspicious of anyone who would
> spend years studying Reich.  But the guy could be an axe murderer and it
> still won't improve Paulo's experimental technique.

Bigotry again -- oh, so tiresome.
> 
>>> In any case, the
>>> statements about Marett in the parts I have located are incomprehensible
>>> gobbledygook.
>> 
>> You are a dilettante in this area from the word go.  It is not
> gobbledygook.
> 
> A "dilettante" no less?  My my.  Jed doesn't have to be a stable boy to
> recognize horsesh*t.

Boy, the fire power is getting pretty strong! Signs instability creeping in
as the pressure cooker goes up...
> 
>> Marett has discovered nothing at all.  Measuring the floor-to-ceiling
>> gradient and correlating it with anything is laughable.
> 
> No it isn't--if he varied the gradient and found no correlation to the hot
> spot temperature, this would be very meaningful.
> Indeed, it would go a long way toward eliminating the gradient as a source
> of error.

Oh, dear, what a know-it-all the man is.
> 
>>> which clearly, simply and conclusively shows that Marett's
>>> results are not anomalous excess heat.
>> 
>> BELIEVE anything you want.  His experiments are not conclusive -- where
> are
>> they precisely described and quantitated, to the extent done by the
> Correas
>> in IE#37?
> 
> The paper in IE#37 isn't very good.  The Correa's do a correlation showing
> that the temperature difference of the two thermometers could not be the
> result of chance, but so what?  No one argues that it is.  The argument is
> about whether or not the hot spot is an aetheric effect or an apparatus
> artifact.
> 
>> Marett, if the truth be  as indicated in the Correa/Reich Affair cited
>> above, and I have no reason to doubt the quotations and history, is
> utterly
>> inept -- but, of course, since the "enemy of my enemy is my friend", you
>> embrace him.
> 
> I can't address Jed's motives, Gene, but it seems pretty clear that the
> editor of IE isn't likely to welcome papers critical of Reich and the
> Correas.

I would welcome an intelligently written critique of any of the Correas'
work, but it would have to address to my satisfaction the error sources that
the Correas have meticulously closed off.  And -- it would have to address
explanations of devices such as aether motors, aether field meters, etc.
> 
>> (T)he Correas have been exemplary in rooting as many of these out
>> as they can. They do not claim perfection. They are open to criticism, but
>> only from those who examine their work carefully, as you and Marett most
>> certainly have not.
> 
> Seems to me that they, and you, regard criticism of their work as certain
> evidence that the criticizer hasn't examined their work carefully.

I know for a fact that you haven't. You can't claim to unless you have
studied a good portion of their monographs in detail. You have a theoretical
bias agenda and you know it.
> 
>> Yes, and relying on ONE person -- such as Marett, who turns out to be less
>> than pristine -- to seek support for your ideas and battles, is quite
>> dangerous.
> 
> Jed isn't relying on one person--nearly everyone he's asked, except for you,


Oh, so Kooistra believes in the voting theory of science now - the one
favored by Park et al?!  With the votes "counted" by Rothwell no less!!

> agrees that the Correa's work is poorly executed, logically inconsistent,
> and written up in gobbledy-gook.

Well, I do suppose you have insufficient training to understand it. Poor
man.

OK, it's your and their right to hold that view.  Long long ago in/near a
university far, far away (MIT), there were a handful of people (Mallove,
Smullin, Hagelstein, Swartz, etc.) who were meticulously studying the
evidence for cold fusion and finding legitimacy in it -- going against an
ocean of bigotry which persists to this day. This was long before
opportunistic toddlers like Kooistra and Rothwell entered the scene.   You
are still toddlers. Similarly, I am convinced that the evidence will favor
the general findings about the aether presented by the Correas, Aspden, and
others, at the time of a similar sea of bigotry and ignorance.  As with cold
fusion in its early two years, I am open to rejecting this evidence for a
new paradigm, if/when I find it flawed.  But I find the evidence persuasive
at this time.  
> 
> Jeff

- Gene
> 
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 07:04:09 2002
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Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 19:17:08 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Stirling engine output power
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Jeff Kooistra wrote:

>Now this just pisses me off.  20 to 500mw!?

It upsets me, too. Why not calibrate and find out?!? This is a critical 
parameter. It should have been established at the start!


>But as it stands, I have to agree with Jed . . .  (although he thinks the RF
>contribution is negligible) . . .

Not me! The experts I have spoken with think it is probably negligible. 
However, they say, I say -- we all agree -- it should be checked for, since 
this is a Faraday cage, after all. It could be checked with a meter or some 
sort, or a null control. The latter would eliminate a whole range of 
possible errors and doubts.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 08:21:24 2002
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Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 11:14:58 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Jed's comments on Reich's ORAC
In-Reply-To: <B925988A.2ECB%editor infinite-energy.com>
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

> > I can't find that section either. The index seems chaotic.
>
>Chaotic to you,  but not to a careful, truly interested reader with some
>familiarity (by study) with the history of Reich. . . .

An index is supposed to be a guide, not a secret code. An index which can 
only be used by people who are already familiar with the subject and "truly 
interested" is like a map that only makes sense to people who never get lost.

Along the same lines, in a technical document neologisms and rare words not 
defined in the dictionary such as "matrist" should always be defined in the 
text the first time they are used. Such rules are found in any guide to 
technical writing. An author who ignores such rules is either ignorant, 
amateur, or he intends to alienate readers. (The rules do not apply to 
literature such as "Ulysses.")


>You are an antagonistic dilettante in this area . . .

Correct. That is why I need a coherent table of contents and properly 
defined terminology. Unless this document is only intended for people who 
have already mastered the subject.


>I invite you and other readers to review the sorry history of Douglas
>Marett's behavior in 1996.  This may be found at:

>http://www.aetherometry.com/pagd/CorreaReich.html

This document is not on line.

In any case, I cannot judge the technical issues in this field because the 
terminology is meaningless to me, but it is clear to me that Marett is a 
better experimentalist than Correa, and he has a much more lucid, 
understandable, technically accurate way of expressing himself. I do not 
need to judge the fine details of the dispute to see that Marett makes a 
better case.


>You are a dilettante in this area from the word go.  It is not gobbledygook.

If I am a dilettante it follows that the language must be gobbledygook to 
me. Any technical paper about a subject one does not know is meaningless. 
In this case, however, the technical terminology is not defined in any 
dictionary or textbook I know of, or in the text, so I have no way to 
reduce the gobbledygook quotient.

Marett's documents contain no gobbledygook, and I understand them without 
difficulty, so it is possible to write about the experimental side of this 
field without resorting to obscure, undefined technical terms. If the 
Correas would run a properly designed test that proves the box produces 
excess heat, they could describe this test with reference to standard 
thermodynamics and calorimetry only, without mentioning their theory. I 
would understand this description without difficulty.


> >Every technique has shortcomings and
> > blind spots.
>
>Indeed. And the Correas have been exemplary in rooting as many of these 
>out as they can.

No, they have not. The only way to root out shortcomings is to use a 
different instrument type and a different technique to measure the same 
putative effect. This is science 101 -- the sort of thing they teach in 
grade school. The Correas repeated the same experiment Reich did, with the 
same inherent weaknesses. This is an amateur mistake.

Also, they have not done control experiments or calibrations, which is even 
more amateur. They cannot say whether they are measuring 20 mW or 500 mW, a 
fact which could be established in a few hours, in a project that has gone 
for years. That is as far from "exemplary" as research can be.


>They are open to criticism, but only from those who examine their work 
>carefully, as you and Marett most certainly have not.

Marett only needs to study his own experiments, which are also close copies 
of Reich's work. He saw the effect Reich saw, and he found the cause of it. 
Correa's work is irrelevant to him.

It is possible that Marett saw only the effects of thermal stratification 
and Correa is measuring something else, which is truly anomalous and 
interesting. However, without control experiments or calibration, we have 
no way to judge how big the apparent effect is, or what might account for it.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 08:38:11 2002
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly 
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On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, Doug Marett wrote:

> The suggestion of these straightforward observations is that both wood
> and metal enclosures substantially block air ions of both signs from
> getting into the enclosures, with metal enclosures being the best.

If the enclosures are sealed, why would metal be better than wood?

Since natural radiation is one large source of ions, and since it's hard
to block cosmic rays, maybe the cosmic rays produce the same number of
ions in both enclosures.  Why then would the metal enclosure measure
lower?  Perhaps the metal walls "eat" ions which come near, while the
wooden walls, being an insulator, do not.



> Although Reich considered the possibility that the effect was due to air
> ions, he concluded that it was not, since he found that a fan did not
> affect the rate of discharge of his electroscope.

Huh?   Why would he think that a fan would have any effect?  (Analogy: the
conductivity of water doesn't change just because the water is flowing.)

I can see one situation where a fan might make a difference.  If a tiny
fan is used to blow the air against the metal walls (disrupting the
boundary layer), that might give the air ions more opportunity to touch
the metal and be discharged.   However, simply stirring the air should
have no effect.   And the fan should only have an effect if the inner
layer of the enclosure is metal (preferably NOT aluminum, since aluminum
has a coating of garnet (Al oxide).

> I am not aware of anyone before who has measured the ion levels inside
> an ORAC with a counter, and I think this should be considered as a
> serious explanation for this anomaly.
>
> Am I wrong?

Great test!

One last observation:  At sea level the air ions will be FAR lower than in
mountainous country.   Background radiation is the issue.  If a geiger
counter is clicking like mad from cosmic rays, then the whole environment
is "clicking" too ( the air is being ionized.)    At sea level, a geiger
counter clicks very slowly, but just a few thousand feet of elevation
makes a big difference.

The traditional explanation for electroscope-discharge is that cosmic rays
ionize the surrounding air.  But if the weather affects the ion count, and
if the natural radiation is quite low at sea level, then the
electroscope-discharge effect would be caused more by weather-ions at
locations which aren't up in the mountains.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 09:03:58 2002
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Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 11:58:22 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: An intelligently written critique
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>I would welcome an intelligently written critique of any of the Correas' 
>work, but it would have to address to my satisfaction the error sources 
>that the Correas have meticulously closed off.

Gene:

In a critique of the Correa's work published here, I listed 7 technical 
weaknesses, such as the fact that they mixed in solar heat with the 
putative anomalous heat, and they did not calibrate. As far as I know, 
neither the Correas nor you have addressed these issues. They have 
certainly not "meticulously closed them off."

No one here has said that my critique is out of line, technically 
inaccurate, inflammatory, or ad hominem. Only you have accused me of being 
a "dilettante" -- without offering any concrete reason for this judgement. 
The seven points I brought up have nothing to do with the Correa theory; 
they relate only to experimental technique.

You commented that the Stirling engine is "a good test bed system." I 
asked: "How do you know? Have you calibrated it? Does it always produce the 
same number of rpms for a given power level?" You did not respond. These 
are legitimate questions -- and again I must point out they are posed in 
academically correct, non-inflammatory language, unlike your recent 
comments. If you cannot answer these questions, you have no basis for 
claiming the motor is a good test bed. It might be a rotten test bed. No 
one knows yet how good it is. Furthermore, as I pointed out in my critique, 
Correa claims it captures only 8% of the heat. Since other, standard 
techniques capture 95% or more, that makes it a bad test bed even if the 
motor response is highly predictable.

I think you should either address these seven points in detail, using 
ordinary scientific terminology, or shut up.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 11:16:57 2002
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From: "Doug Marett" <doug.marett sympatico.ca>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject:  Reich electroscopic anomaly - typo correction
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:12:59 -0400
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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To list:=20

In my posting this morning on the Reich electroscopic anomaly, I typed,=20

"The wooden box was also tested alone, as was the wooden box."

It should have read, "The wooden box was also tested alone, as was the =
metal box."=20

Sorry for the typo.

Doug

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4728.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To list: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In my posting this morning on the Reich =

electroscopic anomaly, </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I&nbsp;typed,=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"<FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>The wooden box=20
was also tested alone, as was the wooden box.</FONT>"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It should have read, "<FONT =
face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3>The wooden box was also tested alone, as was the=20
<EM><STRONG>metal</STRONG></EM> box.</FONT>" </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Sorry for the typo.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Doug</DIV></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 11:46:21 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Reich's electroscopic anomaly 
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:56:35 -0400
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Hi Doug.

You write:
>If one wants to be ranted on by the Correa's one
> simply has to disagree with them (or now not even
> that, seeing the growing list of victims on their website).
>If you don't believe me- try it.
>Anyway, insults have to be water off a duck's back on this list, judging
from what I have read recently.

Sadly, it is rhetoric rather than reason which compels action amongst
the homo sapiens. I can perfectly understand why Paulo rants the way
he does, Gene and Jed included. As one of the original posters to this
thread, I asked kindly for Gene to post a basic experiment that would
show anomalous effect and be do-able by vortexians ( not such a constraint
considering the firepower that can be marshaled by individuals these days ).

He provided a write-up of the ORAC experiment, and my apologies if I'm
using the terminology wrong. I asked for some clarification on some
of the details, and am still waiting for a reply. Perhaps you, who
are familiar with the ORAC and seem still willing to address the
frontal lobes of our brains, might make a definitive statement or
point to one if you've already done so? Your claim, I believe, is
that the ORAC is partitioning heat in the space around it, such that
with a gradient of temperature (cool air on the floor, hot air on
the ceiling) the temperature above the ORAC will be hotter than
a point in space adjacent. This claim explains the fact that the
temperature is never seen to get colder, as one would rarely expect
to find cold air on the ceiling and hot air on the floor.
Has real calorimetry been done on the ORAC?

Also, can you suggest a "convincer" type experiment to show
anomalous effect from Reich's work? Or is the ORAC the best
example of the work that is fundamental and reproducible?

K.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 11:56:05 2002
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Subject: Re: Another Orgone experiment (human IR sense?)
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On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, William Beaty wrote:

> In good summer weather when there is a small thunderstorm nearby, look at
> the dark black underside of the storm.  Feel anything?  Feel something
> like a cold, "fresh" feeling inside your chest and in your sinuses?  Now
> look away, and that feeling totally vanishes.  Look at various parts of
> the sky, and that feeling is still gone.  It's only there when looking at
> the very dark blue-black part of the summer rainstorm.

Thinking further about this, I realized that the effect could be explained
if my eyes were somehow sensitive to longwave IR.  Not IR vision mind you,
I just mean sensitive (like a non-imaging photocell for long IR.)



I think I just confirmed this.  While driving back from dropping off my
daughter, there was another one of those dark blue-black clouds nearby.
When I look at it, I get the "cold fresh" feeling.  But when looking at
small clouds of similar color, I get nothing.   When looking at trees and
buildings... nothing.

Suppose that the "special" clouds are much colder than others?  If so, and
if my eyes/face are sensitive to long IR, then windshield glass would
block the effect.  Glass behaves as a hot radiator (hot at 70F or so.)
(Yes, the driver side window blocks the effect just as well as the
windshield does.)



But WHY would these small dark clouds be cold?  Maybe they contain
falling raindrops, but these should be no colder than the cloud droplets
within other clouds.

I was thinking these thoughts while driving, and the blue/black cloud was
now overhead.  Guess what happened.  I kid you not, IT STARTED HAILING.
As I'm typing this, half-inch hailstones are clattering on the roof and
shattering on the sidwalk outside my cellar window.



So, the weird "feeling" I get when aiming my eyes at certain clouds may
just be crude "IR vision."  It takes large vertical winds and very low
temperatures to generate hail.  I'm gussing that a thermal IR camera would
"see" a hail-bearing cloud as a big cold blotch against the relatively
warmer environment.

If human beings have a thermal-IR sense, it seem to be associated with the
eyes.  I'd guess that could just be corneal sensitivity to heat, and NOT
retinal sensitivity to IR.  It hurts if you poke your cornea, so the
region is full of nerve endings.  If the corneal nerve endings have
temperature sensors, they might act like a simple bolometer, and be able
to sense when a distant cold object is present.

It might be no more exotic than when you feel warm sunlight on your
skin.   ...but somewhat more sensitive, and somewhat more directional.

But it DOES seem to be useful.  I can look at various clouds and tell if
one of them is a storm with vertical winds and ice.  I can see that such
a skill would come in handy, and probably be reinforced by evolution.

Ooops!  Thunder!    Cloud-electrification is associated with strong
vertical winds (updrafts) and with temperatures far below 0C.  I guess
that weird blue/black cloud certainly was colder than all the others.

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William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 12:05:29 2002
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Jun 07, 2002
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:49:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 7 Jun 02   Washington, DC

1. HOUSE AIMS FOR DOUBLING NSF. This week the House voted 397 to
25 to authorize 15 percent increases for NSF for the next three
years, setting the stage for a five-year doubling.  Congress's
support for the NSF's programs runs far deeper than its recently
expressed criticism of the way the Foundation is being managed.  

2. MARS ODYSSEY: FILL 'ER UP FOR THE TRIP HOME?  Last week, WN
scoffed at media suggestions that water found on Mars by the
Odyssey orbiter might someday be used in manned missions to make
rocket fuel for the return trip.  "Haven't you guys ever heard of
electrolysis?" indignant readers asked.  Well, yes, we have, but
to make that much hydrogen you're going to need a lot of
electricity.  "No problem," we were told, "the plan  is to use
solar cells."  The plan?  We called Jim Garvin, NASA's head
scientist for Mars Exploration.  "We have no plans to find water
in the form of ice and convert it into anything," he snorted. 
But, you might ask, is it a practical idea?  Alas, the hydrogen
found by Odyssey is in the polar regions.  Elsewhere, things look
pretty dry.  "OK, so they'll send along a nuclear reactor."  
Good idea, but you'd better toss in a backhoe too.  Even in the
polar regions the water is a foot or two below the surface   and
it's in the form of frozen mud, maybe 20% water.  So where does
the media get hold of these ideas?  They must be coming from the
Mars lobby, which is dedicated to underestimating the difficulty.

3. YUCCA MOUNTAIN: NEVADA FILES LAWSUIT AGAINST DOE.  The
Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) for the Yucca Mountain
nuclear waste site in Nevada angered opponents.  The Department
of Energy statement is "tantamount to fraud," claimed the Nevada
Attorney General's Office. State officials charge that the DOE
lost sight of the National Environmental Policy Act and some
provisions of the Nuclear Waste Policy Act.  That's easy to do
when you're a high roller.  But Nevada filed suit against the DOE
in federal court to stop nuclear waste dumping, arguing that the
DOE failed to inform the public adequately. Previously, Governor
Kenny Guinn filed a congressionally-authorized veto of President
Bush's authority to proceed with the Yucca Mountain project. 
Clearly, Nevada just won't quit.  Nevada wants a valid EIS - one
that the public can understand.  

4. GLOBAL WARMING: "YOU'VE COME A LONG WAY, BABY."  In a report
to the United Nations, the US acknowledged that the climate is
growing warmer.  Moreover, the required EPA report,  
www.epa.gov/globalwarming/publications/car/, identifies carbon
dioxide pollution of the atmosphere from human activity, as a
possible culprit.

(Christy Fernandez contributed to this week's What's New)
THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY and THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND 
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
American Physical Society or the University, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 12:21:15 2002
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Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly
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At 8:37 AM 6/7/2, William Beaty wrote:
>On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, Doug Marett wrote:
>
>> The suggestion of these straightforward observations is that both wood
>> and metal enclosures substantially block air ions of both signs from
>> getting into the enclosures, with metal enclosures being the best.
>
>If the enclosures are sealed, why would metal be better than wood?
>
>Since natural radiation is one large source of ions, and since it's hard
>to block cosmic rays, maybe the cosmic rays produce the same number of
>ions in both enclosures.  Why then would the metal enclosure measure
>lower?  Perhaps the metal walls "eat" ions which come near, while the
>wooden walls, being an insulator, do not.


This seems reasonable.  Metal walls more stongly attract ions nearby by
induced charge, and can then fully discharge them by contact.  An insulator
can also attract ions, but the ion can retain its charge and can thus later
be stripped from the insulating wall by energetic particles.  Also, to a
small degree, wood is a source of alpha particles from C14 decay.



>
>
>
>> Although Reich considered the possibility that the effect was due to air
>> ions, he concluded that it was not, since he found that a fan did not
>> affect the rate of discharge of his electroscope.
>
>Huh?   Why would he think that a fan would have any effect?  (Analogy: the
>conductivity of water doesn't change just because the water is flowing.)


A charged flow of air (or even air containing equal amounts of positive and
negative ions)  should act like a van de Graff generator belt. A charged
metal object in the vicinity should attract opposing charges (ions) from
the air and repell others, resulting in a current flow.  The faster the air
flow, and the higher the ion concentration, the greater the discharge
current.  However, if the flow of ions is into a metal enclosure, and the
ions sparse, the Faraday ice pail effect, combined with other surface
effects, might cause the accumulation of both positive and negative ion
currents to the surrounding metal enclosure, resulting in net zero current,
or even a net positive or negative current, depending on ion ratios.  The
discharging of the electroscope, if any, then depends on the electroscope's
location in the enclosure and the nature of its electrical contact with
the enclosure, and the ion charge ratio. Though unlikely, except by design,
it is of course possible to extract kinetic energy from an air flow and
actually generate current to charge an electroscope. There are ionic
windmills that work (though inefficiently) on this principle.  If the
principle exposed surface of the electroscope is positive, and the net ion
count is positive, then the force of the air flow can overcome to some
degree the coulomb force and charge the electroscope.


>
>I can see one situation where a fan might make a difference.  If a tiny
>fan is used to blow the air against the metal walls (disrupting the
>boundary layer), that might give the air ions more opportunity to touch
>the metal and be discharged.   However, simply stirring the air should
>have no effect.   And the fan should only have an effect if the inner
>layer of the enclosure is metal (preferably NOT aluminum, since aluminum
>has a coating of garnet (Al oxide).



The conduction of aluminum-aluminum surface contacts is a circumstance
about which I have often marvelled, and about which I would like to know
more. It appears the thin aluminum oxide surface layer has almost no
resistive effect, even though it is a fabulous dielectric and insulator. It
appears the electrons merely tunel through it because it is so thin?  Does
anyone have any information about this effect?   It is also noteworthy that
the existence of the layer also has a very limited chemical effect (except
of course its oxidation preventitive effect).  Perhaps the skin is simply
filled with holes too small for O2 molecules?



>
>> I am not aware of anyone before who has measured the ion levels inside
>> an ORAC with a counter, and I think this should be considered as a
>> serious explanation for this anomaly.
>>
>> Am I wrong?
>
>Great test!


Yes, very interesting data, and something to be taken seriously.  It would
be of interest to hear more about the accuracy and precision of the
instument and its strengths and limitations.


Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 12:33:06 2002
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William Beaty wrote:

>If human beings have a thermal-IR sense, it seem to be associated with the
>eyes. 
>

I was reading an article from The Daily Grail recently about human IR 
vision.  The lens effectively blocks IR radiation; but, some people who 
have had the lens removed can see quite well in the dark because the 
retina is sensitive to IR.  Men who had a single lens removed were often 
used as lookouts in the military before night vision goggles because of 
this ability.

The web page is down at the moment; so, I cannot cite the reference.

Terry

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Subject: Re: Another Orgone experiment (human IR sense?)
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On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, Terry Blanton wrote:

> I was reading an article from The Daily Grail recently about human IR
> vision.  The lens effectively blocks IR radiation; but, some people who
> have had the lens removed can see quite well in the dark because the
> retina is sensitive to IR.  Men who had a single lens removed were often
> used as lookouts in the military before night vision goggles because of
> this ability.

I've heard of this, but I assume that they're talking about near-IR.  In
the evening just after sunset, a near-IR camera sees the sky as very
bright, and this illuminates the landscape.   Under these conditions a
person with a missing lens would still see well, while normal humans would
see only darkness.

Near-IR is like red light.   Long-IR from 70F objects is a whole different
animal.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 13:05:47 2002
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Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly
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On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, Horace Heffner wrote:

> >> Although Reich considered the possibility that the effect was due to air
> >> ions, he concluded that it was not, since he found that a fan did not
> >> affect the rate of discharge of his electroscope.
> >
> >Huh?   Why would he think that a fan would have any effect?  (Analogy: the
> >conductivity of water doesn't change just because the water is flowing.)
>
>
> A charged flow of air (or even air containing equal amounts of positive and
> negative ions)  should act like a van de Graff generator belt.

Yes, but air ions are created when neutral molecules are separated into
independant (+) and (-) particles...  with the average charge remaining
zero.  Ions cause air to become conductive yet neutrally charged.  ANY
substance which contains mobile charges is a conductor by definition (but
the conductor need not be "charged", and the mobile charges can be equal
populations of opposite polarity.)


> A charged
> metal object in the vicinity should attract opposing charges (ions) from
> the air and repell others, resulting in a current flow.

Not quite.

A charged metal object will create an e-field, and will induce equal
charges on the surfaces of distant objects.  The e-field will then drive
any positive air ions in one direction, and drive negative air-ions in the
opposite direction (i.e. the air is conductive.)  If there is no source of
ions in the sealed enclosure, the e-field will sweep ions out of the air
very rapicly, and the conductivity will go to zero.  However, there IS a
source of ions: natural radiation.

>  The faster the air
> flow, and the higher the ion concentration, the greater the discharge
> current.

That would occur if ions were created preferentially (if the air contained
more positive ions than negative ones, or vice versa.)   But when cosmic
rays ionize the air, they create ion-pairs.   The air would remain
conductive yet neutral.


  However, if the flow of ions is into a metal enclosure, and the
> ions sparse, the Faraday ice pail effect, combined with other surface
> effects, might cause the accumulation of both positive and negative ion
> currents to the surrounding metal enclosure, resulting in net zero current,

Yes, but only if the e-fields of each ion were stronger than the e-field
created by the electroscope terminal.


> or even a net positive or negative current, depending on ion ratios.  The
> discharging of the electroscope, if any, then depends on the electroscope's
> location in the enclosure and the nature of its electrical contact with
> the enclosure, and the ion charge ratio. Though unlikely, except by design,
> it is of course possible to extract kinetic energy from an air flow and
> actually generate current to charge an electroscope. There are ionic
> windmills that work (though inefficiently) on this principle.  If the
> principle exposed surface of the electroscope is positive, and the net ion
> count is positive, then the force of the air flow can overcome to some
> degree the coulomb force and charge the electroscope.

I still don't see why Reich would assume that a fan would alter the
conductivity of the air.   Yes, the high voltage will sweep ions along,
but the cosmic rays will create more, so the conductivity of the air
shouldn't change much.

At the very least, a physicist would not have a firm prediction on whether
a fan can change the discharge rate.   We'd have to try it and see.
Place a couple of H.V. electrodes near each other, then measure the
nanoamps of air leakage... then blow the air around with a fan.




> The conduction of aluminum-aluminum surface contacts is a circumstance
> about which I have often marvelled, and about which I would like to know
> more. It appears the thin aluminum oxide surface layer has almost no
> resistive effect,

It has a significant resistive effect!  That's why aluminum wiring is
illegal in most places:  the joints between wires will start fires.
ALso, electrolytic capacitors are based on oxidized aluminum foil.  If the
oxide wasn't an insulator, aluminum electrolytics would act as resistors.







(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 13:16:50 2002
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As I've not tried performing the thermometers test, consider this a
comment from the peanut gallery.

Beware!   Many insulators are transparant to longwave infrared!   Most
people don't realize that we LITERALLY live in "glass houses."  A thermal
IR camera can see right through sheetrock and plywood.

This has consequences for ORAC experiments.  If the sun is shining on the
side of your house, and if you measure the air temperature,  in theory
your measurements could vary depending on whether the thermometer was
placed in the shadow of a pipe or electrical box.  Imagine the walls to be
glass, and the sunlight is shining on your whole experiment.

A good way to block this longwave IR is with thin metal.  Cover the walls
of your whole lab with aluminum foil.  But supposedly the Orgone interacts
with metals different than with insulators.  But so does longwave IR!  If
the sun is shining through the walls and illuminating your experiment, a
wooden box would behave differently than a metal one (since the wooden box
is transparent to this invisible light.)

On the other hand, a thermometer in an IR-transparent wooden box should
indicate a HIGHER temperature than one in a metal box, since the wooden
box is letting in the invisible sunlight.

However, if the goal is to separate the OR from the IR    :)
...then we have a problem, since wood and metal behave differently as far
as OR is concerned, but they also behave differently when working in an
IR-illuminated environment.

Perhaps the solution is NOT to coat your lab with foil, but instead just
perform the experiment on cloudy days when the outside temperature isn't
too different from the one in your lab.


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 14:00:53 2002
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This didn't go thru the first time, so am sending it again.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Marett" <doug.marett sympatico.ca>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly


> William Beaty wrote:
>
> > If the enclosures are sealed, why would metal be better than wood?
>
>     A good point. Perhaps I didn't mention - the enclosures were open on
one
> side so that a reading could be taken from the meter. In another
experiment
> that I performed, I found that a metal mesh around the counter was also
> sufficient to block out about 80% of the ions, whether grounded or not.
> Thus, even with partial airflow through the mesh, metal is quite good at
> blocking ion mobility.
>
> > > Although Reich considered the possibility that the effect was due to
air
> > > ions, he concluded that it was not, since he found that a fan did not
> > > affect the rate of discharge of his electroscope.
> >
> > Huh?   Why would he think that a fan would have any effect?  (Analogy:
the
> > conductivity of water doesn't change just because the water is flowing.)
>
>     I would explain it by the fact that large ions are often associated
with
> particles in the air, and as such are more likely to collide with the
> electroscope or ion counter if they are blown around, kind of like
billiard
> balls.
>
> Interestingly, (and I have tried this) if you put charged H.V. plates on
> either side of the ion counter, the ion level detected drops to virtually
> zero. This is because the ions are all attracted to either the positive or
> negative plate and thus are completely screened from the counter.
>
> > Great test!
> >
> > One last observation:  At sea level the air ions will be FAR lower than
in
> > mountainous country.   Background radiation is the issue.  If a geiger
> > counter is clicking like mad from cosmic rays, then the whole
environment
> > is "clicking" too ( the air is being ionized.)    At sea level, a geiger
> > counter clicks very slowly, but just a few thousand feet of elevation
> > makes a big difference.
> >
> > The traditional explanation for electroscope-discharge is that cosmic
rays
> > ionize the surrounding air.  But if the weather affects the ion count,
and
> > if the natural radiation is quite low at sea level, then the
> > electroscope-discharge effect would be caused more by weather-ions at
> > locations which aren't up in the mountains.
>
> That makes sense. Thanks for the compliment!
>
> Doug Marett M.Sc.
>
>
>
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 15:17:00 2002
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
cc: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
Subject: addendum ... ORAC and thermometers
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n

	Dear Bill,

	Into the Artifact soup you may add:

	Frequently long or deep IR interacts with materials to make a
shorter WL reflection.... thereby creating a type of greenhouse effect.

	Cloudy days and an absolute temperature may not be the answer
of answers.

	You may wish to fabricate a dedicated "semi-super insulation"
thermal box with multiple layers of aluminized mylar...or the equivalent
... spaced by air....

	OR operate a bridge differential set of sensors with the reference
"arm" being one of several designs of lnsulated box.... be a good
beginning place.

	


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From: "Doug Marett" <doug.marett sympatico.ca>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly 
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Hi Keith,

Keith Nagel said:
>As one of the original posters to this
>thread, I asked kindly for Gene to post a basic experiment that would
>show anomalous effect and be do-able by vortexians ( not such a =
constraint
>considering the firepower that can be marshaled by individuals these
days ).

>He provided a write-up of the ORAC experiment, and my apologies if I'm
>using the terminology wrong. I asked for some clarification on some
>of the details, and am still waiting for a reply. Perhaps you, who
>are familiar with the ORAC and seem still willing to address the
>frontal lobes of our brains, might make a definitive statement or
>point to one if you've already done so?

Sure, I can comment on this. The experiment cited in IE on the ORAC as I
recall compared the
temperature above a suspended galv. iron box to the temperature at the =
same
height (but a few feet away)
with a dangling thermometer. Mercury thermometers with 0.1 deg. C. =
divisions
I believe were used. What was
reported was a small temperature difference, usually positive of around
0.1 - 0.2 deg. C. With such a small temperature difference, it is very
possible that the difference is due to the fact that the metal box is in =
an
area of the room which is just slightly warmer than the dangling
thermometer. Alternatively, that the metal box interrupts the vertical
gradient of heat near it, and that the thermometer thus is affected more =
by
the slightly warmer air above it than the bare dangling thermometer is,
which does not have a similar heat reflecting obstruction below it. In =
order
to properly control for both of these objections, I would suggest the
following: the dangling thermometer should have a similarly shaped, heat
reflecting box of some non-metallic material placed below it so that the
thermal conditions experienced by the two thermometers are as equal as
possible. Secondly, I would from time to time alternate the positions of =
the
two boxes and thermometers, to average out any differences in =
temperature
that might exist between the two box positions.
    A while back, I tried to do an experiment very similar to this with
ORAC's composed of metal, rock wool insulation, and glass outer sleeves. =
I
used an  iron internal container for one, copper for another, and =
aluminum
for the last. Aluminum was chosen as the control, since Reich had =
believed
that aluminum was a poor construction material for the ORAC, and that =
galv.
iron or steel wool was the best. The ORAC's had 0.1 deg. C div. =
thermometers
placed above their internal metal enclosures, and the ORACS were placed
close to one another to minimize horizontal temperature differences. I =
also
used a cardboard box to shield the ORAC's from air currents, suspended =
then
above a table, and rotated their positions and thermometers repeatedly =
over
a period of several days. In the end, I found that the iron ORAC was
slightly warmer than the other two, but the average difference was
vanishingly small, i.e. less than 0.05 deg. C. Frustrated, I have found =
that
the harder one controls the experiment, the smaller the difference =
becomes,
a sure sign of trouble.

> Has real calorimetry been done on the ORAC?

    I have discussed the issue with some friends, and we have concluded =
that
perhaps a test of this setup surrounded by a temperature controlled =
water
jacket or oil jacket might eliminate any temperature artifacts. As far =
as I
know, this has not been performed before. At this point, I am sceptical =
that
for all that effort one could obtain a significant positive result.

> Also, can you suggest a "convincer" type experiment to show
> anomalous effect from Reich's work? Or is the ORAC the best
> example of the work that is fundamental and reproducible?

My recent exasperation with Dr. Reich's aether theory stems not just =
these
thermal anomaly experiments, but also from replications of a series of =
his
other experimental proofs that have all come up with more plausible
explanations. In particular, now that the electroscopic anomaly can be
readily explained by the effect of air ions, there really is no good
evidence to support Reich's contention of the orgone. This does not mean
that the aether does not exist, but I no longer believe that these =
methods
of Reich's will lead you to it.

C'est la vie

Doug


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>Hi=20
Keith,<BR><BR>Keith Nagel said:<BR>&gt;As one of the original posters to =

this<BR>&gt;thread, I asked kindly for Gene to post a basic experiment =
that=20
would<BR>&gt;show anomalous effect and be do-able by vortexians ( not =
such a=20
constraint<BR>&gt;considering the firepower that can be marshaled by =
individuals=20
these<BR>days ).<BR><BR>&gt;He provided a write-up of the ORAC =
experiment, and=20
my apologies if I'm<BR>&gt;using the terminology wrong. I asked for some =

clarification on some<BR>&gt;of the details, and am still waiting for a =
reply.=20
Perhaps you, who<BR>&gt;are familiar with the ORAC and seem still =
willing to=20
address the<BR>&gt;frontal lobes of our brains, might make a definitive=20
statement or<BR>&gt;point to one if you've already done so?<BR><BR>Sure, =
I can=20
comment on this. The experiment cited in IE on the ORAC as I<BR>recall =
compared=20
the<BR>temperature above a suspended galv. iron box to the temperature =
at the=20
same<BR>height (but a few feet away)<BR>with a dangling thermometer. =
Mercury=20
thermometers with 0.1 deg. C. divisions<BR>I believe were used. What=20
was<BR>reported was a small temperature difference, usually positive of=20
around<BR>0.1 - 0.2 deg. C. With such a small temperature difference, it =
is=20
very<BR>possible that the difference is due to the fact that the metal =
box is in=20
an<BR>area of the room which is just slightly warmer than the=20
dangling<BR>thermometer. Alternatively, that the metal box interrupts =
the=20
vertical<BR>gradient of heat near it, and that the thermometer thus is =
affected=20
more by<BR>the slightly warmer air above it than the bare dangling =
thermometer=20
is,<BR>which does not have a similar heat reflecting obstruction below =
it. In=20
order<BR>to properly control for both of these objections, I would =
suggest=20
the<BR>following: the dangling thermometer should have a similarly =
shaped,=20
heat<BR>reflecting box of some non-metallic material placed below it so =
that=20
the<BR>thermal conditions experienced by the two thermometers are as =
equal=20
as<BR>possible. Secondly, I would from time to time alternate the =
positions of=20
the<BR>two boxes and thermometers, to average out any differences in=20
temperature<BR>that might exist between the two box=20
positions.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A while back, I tried to do an =
experiment very=20
similar to this with<BR>ORAC's composed of metal, rock wool insulation, =
and=20
glass outer sleeves. I<BR>used an&nbsp; iron internal container for one, =
copper=20
for another, and aluminum<BR>for the last. Aluminum was chosen as the =
control,=20
since Reich had believed<BR>that aluminum was a poor construction =
material for=20
the ORAC, and that galv.<BR>iron or steel wool was the best. The ORAC's =
had 0.1=20
deg. C div. thermometers<BR>placed above their internal metal =
enclosures, and=20
the ORACS were placed<BR>close to one another to minimize horizontal =
temperature=20
differences. I also<BR>used a cardboard box to shield the ORAC's from =
air=20
currents, suspended then<BR>above a table, and rotated their positions =
and=20
thermometers repeatedly over<BR>a period of several days. In the end, I =
found=20
that the iron ORAC was<BR>slightly warmer than the other two, but the =
average=20
difference was<BR>vanishingly small, i.e. less than 0.05 deg. C. =
Frustrated, I=20
have found that<BR>the harder one controls the experiment, the smaller =
the=20
difference becomes,<BR>a sure sign of trouble.<BR><BR>&gt; Has real =
calorimetry=20
been done on the ORAC?<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I have discussed the =
issue with=20
some friends, and we have concluded that<BR>perhaps a test of this setup =

surrounded by a temperature controlled water<BR>jacket or oil jacket =
might=20
eliminate any temperature artifacts. As far as I<BR>know, this has not =
been=20
performed before. At this point, I am sceptical that<BR>for all that =
effort one=20
could obtain a significant positive result.<BR><BR>&gt; Also, can you =
suggest a=20
"convincer" type experiment to show<BR>&gt; anomalous effect from =
Reich's work?=20
Or is the ORAC the best<BR>&gt; example of the work that is fundamental =
and=20
reproducible?<BR><BR>My recent exasperation with Dr. Reich's aether =
theory stems=20
not just these<BR>thermal anomaly experiments, but also from =
replications of a=20
series of his<BR>other experimental proofs that have all come up with =
more=20
plausible<BR>explanations. In particular, now that the electroscopic =
anomaly can=20
be<BR>readily explained by the effect of air ions, there really is no=20
good<BR>evidence to support Reich's contention of the orgone. This does =
not=20
mean<BR>that the aether does not exist, but I no longer believe that =
these=20
methods<BR>of Reich's will lead you to it.<BR><BR>C'est la=20
vie<BR><BR>Doug</FONT><BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <001e01c20df2$d1e52fa0$67b15f41 z6s9t5>
Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly 
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Doug
=20
>>Jeff Kooistra wrote:=20
=20
>>I don't know Marett, and I'm automatically suspicious of anyone who =
would
>>spend years studying Reich. But the guy could be an axe murderer and =
it
>>still won't improve Paulo's experimental technique.=20
=20
>I think there was a BEWARE warning before I joined this list, and now I =
can see why...!=20
=20
No offense intended, Doug--I'm suspicious of everyone who does weird =
science, even though I do it myself. <G>
=20
>If one wants to be ranted on by the Correa's one simply has to disagree =
with them (or now not even that, seeing the growing >list of victims on =
their website).If you don't believe me- try it.
=20
"'tis easier to rant than to fix one's experiment."=20
=20
>Jeff Kooistra wrote to Eugene:=20
=20
>>One other thing--you do talk about this "electroscope anomaly" with =
the
>>ORAC. Would you mind describing that "anomalous effect" clearly to us?
>>What I've heard of it so far makes it sound like an entirely mundane, =
easily
>>explained effect, so I assume there must be more to it.=20
=20
>Actually, I wouldn't mind just sticking to the science for a minute. =
Jeff has brought up the point of the electroscopic anomaly >in the ORAC, =
which I have done some work on recently. Reich claimed that an =
electroscope discharges more slowly in the >ORAC than in the open air, =
and that this was evidence for the existence of the "orgone". This =
effect certainly is true, as >anyone can prove to themselves by =
conducting this simple experiment. However, is this evidence for the =
existence of the >"orgone"?
=20
OK--as I feared, there really isn't any more to it than that--the slower =
discharging.  Hoo-boy.

Thanks

Jeff=20
=20
=20

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3>Doug</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>&gt;&gt;Jeff=20
Kooistra wrote: </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>&gt;&gt;I don't=20
know Marett, and I'm automatically suspicious of anyone who=20
would<BR>&gt;&gt;spend years studying Reich. But the guy could be an axe =

murderer and it<BR>&gt;&gt;still won't improve Paulo's experimental =
technique.=20
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>&gt;I think=20
there was a BEWARE warning before I joined this list, and now I can see =
why...!=20
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>No offense=20
intended, Doug--I'm suspicious of everyone who does weird science, even =
though I=20
do it myself. &lt;G&gt;</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>&gt;If one=20
wants to be ranted on by the Correa's one simply has to disagree with =
them (or=20
now not even that, seeing the growing &gt;list of victims on their =
website).If=20
you don't believe me- try it.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>"'tis easier to=20
rant than to fix one's experiment."</FONT>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>&gt;Jeff=20
Kooistra wrote to Eugene: </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>&gt;&gt;One=20
other thing--you do talk about this "electroscope anomaly" with=20
the<BR>&gt;&gt;ORAC. Would you mind describing that "anomalous effect" =
clearly=20
to us?<BR>&gt;&gt;What I've heard of it so far makes it sound like an =
entirely=20
mundane, easily<BR>&gt;&gt;explained effect, so I assume there must be =
more to=20
it. </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>&gt;Actually, I=20
wouldn't mind just sticking to the science for a minute. Jeff has =
brought up the=20
point of the electroscopic anomaly &gt;in the ORAC, which I have done =
some work=20
on recently. Reich claimed that an electroscope discharges more slowly =
in the=20
&gt;ORAC than in the open air, and that this was evidence for the =
existence of=20
the "orgone". This effect certainly is true, as &gt;anyone can prove to=20
themselves by conducting this simple experiment. However, is this =
evidence for=20
the existence of the &gt;"orgone"?</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>OK--as I feared,&nbsp;there really isn't any more to it than =
that--the=20
slower discharging.&nbsp; Hoo-boy.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Thanks</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jeff&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 15:41:37 2002
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <B926151D.2EE0%editor infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Jed's comments on Reich's ORAC
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Subject: Re: Jed's comments on Reich's ORAC


> On 6/6/02 6:53 PM, "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com> wrote:
>
> > Since he already "knows" the result he is supposed to get,
> > he keeps repeating the methodology that yields that result,
> > since it must be the only "correct" one.

Gene wrote:
> Nonsense by someone who has not read the literature.

No, this sort of circular experimenting _really is_ fairly typical in
weird-science land--it's one of those things some people never learn how not
to do.  And save your BS for someone who doesn't know you--you haven't read
through all that Correa stuff any more than you read through Santilli's
papers.  Come to think of it, Correa does act a bit like Santilli, what with
the rants and everything, only he doesn't get litigious--or has he branched
out into that, too?  On the other hand, he has a bit of the Boscoli in him,
too. Eh, Eugene Capalletti?

Jeff

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Subject: RE: Reich's electroscopic anomaly
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Hi Horace.

>The conduction of aluminum-aluminum surface contacts is a circumstance
>about which I have often marvelled, and about which I would like to know
>more. It appears the thin aluminum oxide surface layer has almost no
>resistive effect, even though it is a fabulous dielectric and insulator. It
>appears the electrons merely tunel through it because it is so thin?  Does
>anyone have any information about this effect?   It is also noteworthy that
>the existence of the layer also has a very limited chemical effect (except
>of course its oxidation preventitive effect).  Perhaps the skin is simply
>filled with holes too small for O2 molecules?

The oxide has a hexagonal form on the metal surface, with a tiny hole
at the center of each hexagon. I'd have to go back to my notes to
remember the sizes of these things, but they were quite small. It does
seem very strange that there is reasonable conductivity considering the
oxide coating. Perhaps the ratio of aluminum to aluminum oxide is larger
in the thin film? Or just the fact that there is an interface layer
that causes a change in conductivity of the oxide.

K.

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Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly 
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Doug,

Well, I'm no longer suspicious of you--you obviously know what you're =
doing.

>My recent exasperation with Dr. Reich's aether theory stems not just =
these
>thermal anomaly experiments, but also from replications of a series of =
his
>other experimental proofs that have all come up with more plausible
>explanations. In particular, now that the electroscopic anomaly can be
>readily explained by the effect of air ions, there really is no good
>evidence to support Reich's contention of the orgone. This does not =
mean
>that the aether does not exist, but I no longer believe that these =
methods
>of Reich's will lead you to it.

Reich's "aether" seems to have little in common with the traditional =
aetheric models of the 1800s and early 1900s.

Jeff

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Doug,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Well, I'm no longer suspicious of you--you obviously know what =
you're=20
doing.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>&gt;My recent=20
exasperation with Dr. Reich's aether theory stems not just =
these<BR>&gt;thermal=20
anomaly experiments, but also from replications of a series of =
his<BR>&gt;other=20
experimental proofs that have all come up with more=20
plausible<BR>&gt;explanations. In particular, now that the electroscopic =
anomaly=20
can be<BR>&gt;readily explained by the effect of air ions, there really =
is no=20
good<BR>&gt;evidence to support Reich's contention of the orgone. This =
does not=20
mean<BR>&gt;that the aether does not exist, but I no longer believe that =
these=20
methods<BR>&gt;of Reich's will lead you to it.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>Reich's=20
"aether" seems to have little in common with the traditional aetheric =
models of=20
the 1800s and early 1900s.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3>Jeff</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 16:20:24 2002
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Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 19:17:32 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly 
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Doug Marett wrote:

>Mercury thermometers with 0.1 deg. C. divisions I believe were used.

This is trivial, but this was I.E. #37, p. 15, and divisions were 0.05 deg C.


>. . . Alternatively, that the metal box interrupts the vertical gradient 
>of heat near it, and that the thermometer thus is affected more by the 
>slightly warmer air above it than the bare dangling thermometer is, which 
>does not have a similar heat reflecting obstruction below it.

This seems plausible. A larger temperature difference was observed with "an 
identical metal box whose underside was protected from communicating with 
any convection currents rising from the ground." I am not sure how it was 
"protected." Cardboard, I think. The difference with protection was 0.257 
deg C instead of 0.12. (I don't know where the "7" came from, since the 
thermometer does not measure that far. I don't think you should average to 
3 digits with 2 digit mercury thermometer.)


>In order to properly control for both of these objections, I would suggest 
>the following: the dangling thermometer should have a similarly shaped, 
>heat reflecting box of some non-metallic material placed below it so that 
>the thermal conditions experienced by the two thermometers are as equal as 
>possible. Secondly, I would from time to time alternate the positions of 
>the two boxes and thermometers . . .

All that trouble! Why bother? If the temperature difference is caused by 
excess heat generation it should be easy to measure with a calorimeter.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 16:29:44 2002
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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http://wired.com/news/business/0,1367,51792,00.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 16:37:04 2002
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Subject: Re: addendum ... ORAC and thermometers
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John Schnurer wrote:

>         Into the Artifact soup you may add:

Excellent turn of phrase! "Artifact Soup." That describes most o.u. 
experiments I have seen, including many CF ones, alas.


>         Frequently long or deep IR interacts with materials to make a
>shorter WL reflection.... thereby creating a type of greenhouse effect.

Interesting.


>You may wish to fabricate a dedicated "semi-super insulation" thermal box 
>with multiple layers of aluminized mylar...or the equivalent ... spaced by 
>air....
>
>         OR operate a bridge differential set of sensors with the reference
>"arm" being one of several designs of lnsulated box....

A.k.a. a calorimeter.

Of course some of the artifact soup problems described here would also 
affect a calorimeter, but as I said, if the temperature difference of 0.2 
deg C is from excess heat that should be easy to measure. The second set of 
tests are so poorly defined it is difficult to guess whether the apparent 
heat would be easy to measure (6 watts?) or difficult (0.25 watts?). A 
motor running at an unknown power level with unmeasured efficiency is the 
worst kind of guessing game.

I wrote earlier: "It is possible that Marett saw only the effects of 
thermal stratification and Correa is measuring something else, which is 
truly anomalous and interesting." Strictly speaking, I should have said 
"Correa may be measuring a thermal gradient plus something else." A thermal 
gradient must exist, and it must cause some fraction of Correa's heat. We 
do not know what fraction because he did not measure the gradient, and the 
gradient is sure to vary from place to place anyway.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 16:39:43 2002
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Subject: Re: Stirling engine output power
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Jed,

> >But as it stands, I have to agree with Jed . . .  (although he thinks the
RF
> >contribution is negligible) . . .
>
> Not me! The experts I have spoken with think it is probably negligible.
> However, they say, I say -- we all agree -- it should be checked for,
since
> this is a Faraday cage, after all. It could be checked with a meter or
some
> sort, or a null control. The latter would eliminate a whole range of
> possible errors and doubts.

Fair enough--I was shooting from the hip anyway <G>.  Actually, this
discussion has brought up so many other plausible mundane sources for the
heat "anomaly" that I now think the RF heating probably is negligible most
of the time.

Jeff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 16:46:39 2002
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Subject: Re: Hydrino Rockets story on WIRED.com
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This is good news. I am delighted that someone is finally doing an 
independent experiment to confirm Mills. I hope Mills cooperates. I hope 
Marchese is competent.

If it doesn't work, Osheroff and Park will crow, but so what? I am happy to 
run that risk in return for a serious attempt at independent replication. I 
don't mind spending $75,000 of taxpayer's money for that, although I must 
say, regular CF would be better, safer bet. But you can't use it drive rockets.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 18:35:35 2002
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Subject: Re: Another Orgone experiment (human IR sense?)
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>
> If human beings have a thermal-IR sense, it seem to be associated with the
> eyes.  I'd guess that could just be corneal sensitivity to heat, and NOT
> retinal sensitivity to IR.  It hurts if you poke your cornea, so the
> region is full of nerve endings.  If the corneal nerve endings have
> temperature sensors, they might act like a simple bolometer, and be able
> to sense when a distant cold object is present.
>

Do people who cannot see in the visible spectrum (blind), see in the far IR?
For that matter, do they experience pain if you poke their cornea?

> It might be no more exotic than when you feel warm sunlight on your
> skin.   ...but somewhat more sensitive, and somewhat more directional.
>
> But it DOES seem to be useful.  I can look at various clouds and tell if
> one of them is a storm with vertical winds and ice.  I can see that such
> a skill would come in handy, and probably be reinforced by evolution.

Sure. I can individuals who are "sensitive" to weather conditions using this
skill to their advantage.



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun  7 18:47:31 2002
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> The box has to be constructed of layers of metal and fiberglass.

The dielectric can be many materials other than fibre glass.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 04:44:08 2002
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Gentlemen,

   After being a bystander for a number of months, the incentive finally
arose for me to jump back in.  It was with some considerable dismay that I
watched the debate over the Correa claims fall into some very weird threads
of discussion.  But then came the announcement by Gene Mallove regarding the
Correa rebuttal to Jim DeMeo's Pulse #5...
   I do not know the Correas.  Never met them.  I seem to recall maybe a
couple of years ago I had come across their aetherometry site, and at the
time found it to be interesting, though I didn't spend a lot of time there.
It did seem as though they spent an undue amount of time knocking around
another person whom I did not or do not know - a Mr. Marett, I believe.
Perhaps the same fellow I have seen make some postings here.  Anyway, I
thought little more of it until this recent war of words broke out here on
Vortex.

For the record, here is my involvement in the pursuit of orgone energy:

1.  While I had heard of Reich and Orgone in the 1970's, as a teen, I didn't
do any experimentation.
2.  In 1988, I became interested again, and read as many of Reich's original
books as I could find.  I began networking with a wide variety of people,
many informative, some enigmatic and spooky to my way of thinking.  And some
very thorough in their evaluation of Reich's experiments.
3.  A friend of mine and I built a small cloudbuster.  It never did seem to
do much that we saw, but in hindsight it really was a poor design, and we
did not fairly follow many of Reich's protocols.
4.  I DID however, spend several years building and examining orgone
accumulators!  Yes, I apparently am "one of those people" as stated in an
earlier posting.
5.  I was never able to make any clear (free of potential artifact)
observations of the To-T, myself.
6.  I did, however, observe what I felt to be a couple of very interesting
effects using accumulators of many layers or folds.  These were more
electrostatic or galvanic enigmas in nature.
7.  I spent the better part of a year focused on the Orgone Motor story - an
affair worthy of an X-files episode, actually.  I DID indeed speak to a
fellow who called himself Joe Daniels, from Long Island.  He claimed that he
had procured the little spinner motors that WR had used from a nearby motor
shop. (Please note.  In Jim DeMeo's edited version of the paper I wrote on
the topic, there is a typo I caught.  I spoke with Daniels in the early
1990s, not early 1970's)  I also held a personal conversation over the phone
with William Washington, who was one of the center figures in the OR Motor
story.  I have no idea if either of these gentlemen is still among us.
People grow old and pass away.
8.  I also spent a couple of years trying to ascertain if vacuum tubes
soaked inside of accumulators had different properties - plasma wise- than
standard or control tubes.  Again, some hints, but nothing I could fairly
submit to peer review.

Now, to the core issue.

After seeing Gene Malloves announcement about the Correa rebuttal to PP5, I
went and read it...with personal interests at stake because Jim DeMeo had
used the paper I wrote about my examination of a KS-9154 motor (the ones
Reich claimed that he had run at least partly from the orgone).  Oh My!  I
found my paper and my very name speared and gutted!  It's not that I haven't
sustained critiquing and name calling before.  I recall that I have offered
my unvarnished opinions on plenty of occasions - made as personal opinion.
But what shocked me was the absolute viciousness and unprofessional attitude
going there.  In my opinion...these people - the Correas - have a serious
axe to grind that has nothing to do with discovery and science.  If so,
fine, but they should be open enough to say so.  Like "Sorry for the spite,
but we hate Jim DeMeo and anyone who knows him because...blah blah blah"  At
least that would have been a good disclaimer, for whatever the reason.

Sorry, Gene- these folks seem really weird.  Believe me, I KNOW weird.
After following the thread of the discussion between you and Jed, I truly
have to fall on Jed's side of the fence.  I can see why they have not landed
any financial support.  No-one I can think of would pump venture capital
into people who put on a website like the Correas apparently have.  If you
are going to help an inventor commercialize an important invention, you
might tolerate some creative eccentricity, but you don't want a loose cannon
who will eventually piss off the wrong parties for the wrong reasons and
drag all your efforts and $$$ down in lawsuits and court costs.

An example of the weirdness of the Correa rebuttal - to my own submission -
is at the part where they call me dishonest because I make a statement about
how William Washington is probably the only person left who could say
whether the orgone motors ran entirely off of the orgone energy.  They state
I am lying because I would have full well known that they - the Correas- had
the only real method of operating an orgone motor.  Or something like that.
The problem is...I wrote my little paper in 1998.  I never even heard of the
Correas until maybe 2000 or 2001!!!  How could I have given them credit?
How dare they call me a liar under those circumstances.  Maybe Jim DeMeo
didn't show them my paper until much later.  I have no idea.

I don't mind scientists gutting my experiments or ideas like a fish.  I
expect it.  And yes, I have other interests that many, even here on Vortex,
might find frivolous, such as psychic research or UFO s.  I may be quirky
and goofy.  But don't call me a liar, and don't accuse me of being part of
conspiracies I have never heard of!

My parting advice to Gene Mallove:  Gene, I have respected your
publications, works and efforts in the past.  But without knowing them
personally, these folks look to me like the kind of trouble you don't need.
Run, don't walk, away!





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 05:34:41 2002
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly
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At 12:58 PM 6/7/2, William Beaty wrote:
>On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>> >> Although Reich considered the possibility that the effect was due to air
>> >> ions, he concluded that it was not, since he found that a fan did not
>> >> affect the rate of discharge of his electroscope.
>> >
>> >Huh?   Why would he think that a fan would have any effect?  (Analogy: the
>> >conductivity of water doesn't change just because the water is flowing.)
>>
>>
>> A charged flow of air (or even air containing equal amounts of positive and
>> negative ions)  should act like a van de Graff generator belt.
>
>Yes, but air ions are created when neutral molecules are separated into
>independant (+) and (-) particles...  with the average charge remaining
>zero.


You seem to be ignoring the fact the charge balance did not measure zero.



>Ions cause air to become conductive yet neutrally charged.  ANY
>substance which contains mobile charges is a conductor by definition (but
>the conductor need not be "charged", and the mobile charges can be equal
>populations of opposite polarity.)
>
>
>> A charged
>> metal object in the vicinity should attract opposing charges (ions) from
>> the air and repell others, resulting in a current flow.
>
>Not quite.
>
>A charged metal object will create an e-field, and will induce equal
>charges on the surfaces of distant objects.  The e-field will then drive
>any positive air ions in one direction, and drive negative air-ions in the
>opposite direction (i.e. the air is conductive.)


Yes, and as I said above, the opposed charge will be attracted to the
chagred conductor, thus tending to neutralize or discharge it.  The other
charges will be dispursed and eventually go to ground or an opposite
charged surface.  An electroscope is thus discharged by the moving
conductive air.



>If there is no source of
>ions in the sealed enclosure, the e-field will sweep ions out of the air
>very rapicly, and the conductivity will go to zero.  However, there IS a
>source of ions: natural radiation.


If there is a fan then the main source of new ions should be the new air.
The faster the air flow, and the higher the ion concentration, the greater
the discharge current.


>
>>  The faster the air
>> flow, and the higher the ion concentration, the greater the discharge
>> current.
>
>That would occur if ions were created preferentially (if the air contained
>more positive ions than negative ones, or vice versa.)   But when cosmic
>rays ionize the air, they create ion-pairs.   The air would remain
>conductive yet neutral.


No.  The kinetic energy of the air flow is capable of moving away a
residual net charge.



>
>
>  However, if the flow of ions is into a metal enclosure, and the
>> ions sparse, the Faraday ice pail effect, combined with other surface
>> effects, might cause the accumulation of both positive and negative ion
>> currents to the surrounding metal enclosure, resulting in net zero current,
>
>Yes, but only if the e-fields of each ion were stronger than the e-field
>created by the electroscope terminal.


Well, yes, if there is an electroscope, the opposed ions in the vicinity
would be attracted to it, though I meant above to imply a flow of air into
a metal chamber without electroscope.  Further, the Faraday ice pail effect
(mutual repulsion) whould drive the remaining ions (of the same charge as
the electroscope) to the metal walls, where they are discharged, their
charge being distrubted on the outside surface of the conductive enclosure,
and thus no longer having an effect on the inside.  The net effect is to
redistribute the electroscope charge to the outside of the metal enclosure.



>
>
>> or even a net positive or negative current, depending on ion ratios.  The
>> discharging of the electroscope, if any, then depends on the electroscope's
>> location in the enclosure and the nature of its electrical contact with
>> the enclosure, and the ion charge ratio. Though unlikely, except by design,
>> it is of course possible to extract kinetic energy from an air flow and
>> actually generate current to charge an electroscope. There are ionic
>> windmills that work (though inefficiently) on this principle.  If the
>> principle exposed surface of the electroscope is positive, and the net ion
>> count is positive, then the force of the air flow can overcome to some
>> degree the coulomb force and charge the electroscope.
>
>I still don't see why Reich would assume that a fan would alter the
>conductivity of the air.   Yes, the high voltage will sweep ions along,
>but the cosmic rays will create more, so the conductivity of the air
>shouldn't change much.
>
>At the very least, a physicist would not have a firm prediction on whether
>a fan can change the discharge rate.   We'd have to try it and see.
>Place a couple of H.V. electrodes near each other, then measure the
>nanoamps of air leakage... then blow the air around with a fan.


The air blown around in a small confined volume that consumes ions will
have fewer ions available than a larger volume that has something that
consumes ions at the same rate.  The ionization rate (ion replenishment
rate) is VOLUME dependent.  Blowing air into a small box will replenish the
ions at a significantly high rate.  However, you also have to consider the
fact that most volumes of air are apparently NOT neutral - based on the
data provided by Doug Marett.  Air pumped into a small box may have a net
ion flow, and thus might be capable of charging - due in pat to the kinetic
energy going into the box with the air flow.



>
>
>
>
>> The conduction of aluminum-aluminum surface contacts is a circumstance
>> about which I have often marvelled, and about which I would like to know
>> more. It appears the thin aluminum oxide surface layer has almost no
>> resistive effect,
>
>It has a significant resistive effect!  That's why aluminum wiring is
>illegal in most places:  the joints between wires will start fires.


Yes - due to prolonged oxidation.  There is a goop you should apply to
aluminum joints.


>ALso, electrolytic capacitors are based on oxidized aluminum foil.  If the
>oxide wasn't an insulator, aluminum electrolytics would act as resistors.


Well, yes you can make the oxide layer thick through aging or chemical
treatment.  However, have you ever attempted to measure the resistance of a
fresh aluminum-aluminum joint?  (Aluminum that has been exposed to air, but
not for a long period,  that is.)  I have. I did not see a significant
resistance.  I would have expected a very large resistance.  I simply find
that very surprising.  I wonder if tunneling is a significant factor, or
merely that there are "holes" in the insulation, or whether the resistance
is low only due to the insulator (resistive layer) thickness being so
small.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 06:06:16 2002
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From: "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
To: "vortex-L" <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Subject: Thunderstorm emissions
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 09:04:16 -0400
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I think that a couple of other candidates could be considered for Bill B.'s
thunderstorm / visual effect!

The first was suggested to me by a friend at the lab, to whom I had passed
the observation on to.  While an IR emission is viable, what about near UV
coming from a region under the storm cloud?  Possibly from ionization of
species at the cloud base (N2?, CO2?, H2O?, etc.)  One might think that if
the UV was the basis for the effect, that if you stared at the base of the
cloud long enough, you would really get terribly sore eyes and
conjunctivitis.  However, the UV would be blocked by the windshield glass, I
believe.

What other forms of known energy are blocked by glass / laminates as well as
the hand or eyelids?  Maybe someone has some ideas...millimeter waves?
Long, soft X-rays?

Or should we re-consider the age old "visual ray" idea...?  :-)

Best,

NR

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 06:23:22 2002
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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Subject: Hydrinos Discussed in Slashdot Forum
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http://science.slashdot.org/science/02/06/07/2159210.shtml?tid=134

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 07:19:57 2002
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
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----- Original Message -----
From: <Erikbaard aol.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 6:22 AM
Subject: Hydrinos Discussed in Slashdot Forum


> http://science.slashdot.org/science/02/06/07/2159210.shtml?tid=134

And slashdot got much of it wrong. The NASA contract with Rowan University
is to investigate the BLP reaction for spacecraft propulsion. The H-He
reaction produces a very energetic plasma at low pressures, just the kind of
thing you have in an ion engine, the best bet for long mission deep space
probes. Ion engines have a great specific impulse, but very low thrust. With
compressed helium and hydrogen for fuel, a thruster using the H-He reaction
would have a very good specific impulse but is not limited in thrust.

The principal investigator at Rowan specifically sidestepped any discussion
of hydrinos. He and NASA are interested in thrust in near-vacuum conditions,
not rhetoric.

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 08:07:59 2002
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Subject: Re: Hydrinos Discussed in Slashdot Forum
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In a message dated 6/8/02 10:19:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mikec snip.net 
writes:


> The principal investigator at Rowan specifically sidestepped any discussion
> of hydrinos. He and NASA are interested in thrust in near-vacuum 
> conditions,
> not rhetoric.
> 
> 

He did so for political reasons as much anything else, I'd venture.  I don't 
blame him.  But let's be real -- Dr. Mills' entire explanation for the plasma 
generated in the BlackLight process rests on the existence of the hydrino.  
Just because Rowan University is forced to ignore the elephydrino in the room 
doesn't mean we are.

For this reason, I stand by my WIRED.com story characterization of the rocket 
as a hydrino project, and the subsequent pickup by Slashdot of those terms.  
If the excess energy phenomenon proves real, and if another explanation for 
it proves correct, fine.  But for now, NASA is clearly making a very small 
bet on a project with roots in hydrino theory.

Obfuscation is worse than "rhetoric."

And now, I'll switch from hydrinos to hydrodynamics.  I'm off to kayak.

Erik

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 6/8/02 10:19:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mikec snip.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The principal investigator at Rowan specifically sidestepped any discussion<BR>
of hydrinos. He and NASA are interested in thrust in near-vacuum conditions,<BR>
not rhetoric.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
He did so for political reasons as much anything else, I'd venture.&nbsp; I don't blame him.&nbsp; But let's be real -- Dr. Mills' entire explanation for the plasma generated in the BlackLight process rests on the existence of the hydrino.&nbsp; Just because Rowan University is forced to ignore the elephydrino in the room doesn't mean we are.<BR>
<BR>
For this reason, I stand by my WIRED.com story characterization of the rocket as a hydrino project, and the subsequent pickup by Slashdot of those terms.&nbsp; If the excess energy phenomenon proves real, and if another explanation for it proves correct, fine.&nbsp; But for now, NASA is clearly making a very small bet on a project with roots in hydrino theory.<BR>
<BR>
Obfuscation is worse than "rhetoric."<BR>
<BR>
And now, I'll switch from hydrinos to hydrodynamics.&nbsp; I'm off to kayak.<BR>
<BR>
Erik</FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 08:57:15 2002
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From: "Doug Marett" <doug.marett sympatico.ca>
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Subject: Re: Pulse of the Planet Critique
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Nick Reiter wrote:

> After seeing Gene Malloves announcement about the Correa rebuttal to PP5,
I
> went and read it...with personal interests at stake because Jim DeMeo had
> used the paper I wrote about my examination of a KS-9154 motor (the ones
> Reich claimed that he had run at least partly from the orgone).  Oh My!  I
> found my paper and my very name speared and gutted!

DeMeo was kind enough to send me a complimentary copy of his Pulse of the
Planet 5, and I have read a number of articles in it. I actually quite
enjoyed reading it, and thought it was very well put together. I read your
article on the KS-9154 motor, and I found it very informative, since it
provided lots of technical information that I had not seen before. The
Correa attacks were, as always, completely unfair and emotionally motivated.
It is amazing  since DeMeo had noted that they had been so keen to get some
publicity for their own work through Pulse of the Plant 5, and then when
they were unable to do so, they have turned on DeMeo in such an abusive and
unprofession manner.
    To add to this, after reading DeMeo's article on Mung bean sprouting
rates in ORAC's and control boxes, I decided to give it a try.
Interestingly, I obtained quite similar results to DeMeo.

> I don't mind scientists gutting my experiments or ideas like a fish.  I
> expect it.  And yes, I have other interests that many, even here on
Vortex,
> might find frivolous, such as psychic research or UFO s.  I may be quirky
> and goofy.  But don't call me a liar, and don't accuse me of being part of
> conspiracies I have never heard of!

> My parting advice to Gene Mallove:  Gene, I have respected your
> publications, works and efforts in the past.  But without knowing them
> personally, these folks look to me like the kind of trouble you don't
need.
> Run, don't walk, away!

I absolutely agree, having suffered the same abuse for years now whether I
speak up or not.
As for Gene Mallove, I do not know the man at all, my only impression of him
is from IE which I subscribe to.
I have always thought that he is a decent fellow who honestly is seeking to
move science forward into
some new territory, which I commend. I am of course disturbed by his blanket
referrals to Correa's website whenever my name is mentioned. Reading a
critique of someone written by the Correa's is kind of like witnessing a
serious car accident - it would turn the stomach of any decent person.

You have my condolences Nick... welcome to the club.

Doug


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
To: "vortex-L" <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 7:42 AM
Subject: Pulse of the Planet Critique


> Gentlemen,
>
>    After being a bystander for a number of months, the incentive finally
> arose for me to jump back in.  It was with some considerable dismay that I
> watched the debate over the Correa claims fall into some very weird
threads
> of discussion.  But then came the announcement by Gene Mallove regarding
the
> Correa rebuttal to Jim DeMeo's Pulse #5...
>    I do not know the Correas.  Never met them.  I seem to recall maybe a
> couple of years ago I had come across their aetherometry site, and at the
> time found it to be interesting, though I didn't spend a lot of time
there.
> It did seem as though they spent an undue amount of time knocking around
> another person whom I did not or do not know - a Mr. Marett, I believe.
> Perhaps the same fellow I have seen make some postings here.  Anyway, I
> thought little more of it until this recent war of words broke out here on
> Vortex.
>
> For the record, here is my involvement in the pursuit of orgone energy:
>
> 1.  While I had heard of Reich and Orgone in the 1970's, as a teen, I
didn't
> do any experimentation.
> 2.  In 1988, I became interested again, and read as many of Reich's
original
> books as I could find.  I began networking with a wide variety of people,
> many informative, some enigmatic and spooky to my way of thinking.  And
some
> very thorough in their evaluation of Reich's experiments.
> 3.  A friend of mine and I built a small cloudbuster.  It never did seem
to
> do much that we saw, but in hindsight it really was a poor design, and we
> did not fairly follow many of Reich's protocols.
> 4.  I DID however, spend several years building and examining orgone
> accumulators!  Yes, I apparently am "one of those people" as stated in an
> earlier posting.
> 5.  I was never able to make any clear (free of potential artifact)
> observations of the To-T, myself.
> 6.  I did, however, observe what I felt to be a couple of very interesting
> effects using accumulators of many layers or folds.  These were more
> electrostatic or galvanic enigmas in nature.
> 7.  I spent the better part of a year focused on the Orgone Motor story -
an
> affair worthy of an X-files episode, actually.  I DID indeed speak to a
> fellow who called himself Joe Daniels, from Long Island.  He claimed that
he
> had procured the little spinner motors that WR had used from a nearby
motor
> shop. (Please note.  In Jim DeMeo's edited version of the paper I wrote on
> the topic, there is a typo I caught.  I spoke with Daniels in the early
> 1990s, not early 1970's)  I also held a personal conversation over the
phone
> with William Washington, who was one of the center figures in the OR Motor
> story.  I have no idea if either of these gentlemen is still among us.
> People grow old and pass away.
> 8.  I also spent a couple of years trying to ascertain if vacuum tubes
> soaked inside of accumulators had different properties - plasma wise- than
> standard or control tubes.  Again, some hints, but nothing I could fairly
> submit to peer review.
>
> Now, to the core issue.
>
> After seeing Gene Malloves announcement about the Correa rebuttal to PP5,
I
> went and read it...with personal interests at stake because Jim DeMeo had
> used the paper I wrote about my examination of a KS-9154 motor (the ones
> Reich claimed that he had run at least partly from the orgone).  Oh My!  I
> found my paper and my very name speared and gutted!  It's not that I
haven't
> sustained critiquing and name calling before.  I recall that I have
offered
> my unvarnished opinions on plenty of occasions - made as personal opinion.
> But what shocked me was the absolute viciousness and unprofessional
attitude
> going there.  In my opinion...these people - the Correas - have a serious
> axe to grind that has nothing to do with discovery and science.  If so,
> fine, but they should be open enough to say so.  Like "Sorry for the
spite,
> but we hate Jim DeMeo and anyone who knows him because...blah blah blah"
At
> least that would have been a good disclaimer, for whatever the reason.
>
> Sorry, Gene- these folks seem really weird.  Believe me, I KNOW weird.
> After following the thread of the discussion between you and Jed, I truly
> have to fall on Jed's side of the fence.  I can see why they have not
landed
> any financial support.  No-one I can think of would pump venture capital
> into people who put on a website like the Correas apparently have.  If you
> are going to help an inventor commercialize an important invention, you
> might tolerate some creative eccentricity, but you don't want a loose
cannon
> who will eventually piss off the wrong parties for the wrong reasons and
> drag all your efforts and $$$ down in lawsuits and court costs.
>
> An example of the weirdness of the Correa rebuttal - to my own
submission -
> is at the part where they call me dishonest because I make a statement
about
> how William Washington is probably the only person left who could say
> whether the orgone motors ran entirely off of the orgone energy.  They
state
> I am lying because I would have full well known that they - the Correas-
had
> the only real method of operating an orgone motor.  Or something like
that.
> The problem is...I wrote my little paper in 1998.  I never even heard of
the
> Correas until maybe 2000 or 2001!!!  How could I have given them credit?
> How dare they call me a liar under those circumstances.  Maybe Jim DeMeo
> didn't show them my paper until much later.  I have no idea.
>
> I don't mind scientists gutting my experiments or ideas like a fish.  I
> expect it.  And yes, I have other interests that many, even here on
Vortex,
> might find frivolous, such as psychic research or UFO s.  I may be quirky
> and goofy.  But don't call me a liar, and don't accuse me of being part of
> conspiracies I have never heard of!
>
> My parting advice to Gene Mallove:  Gene, I have respected your
> publications, works and efforts in the past.  But without knowing them
> personally, these folks look to me like the kind of trouble you don't
need.
> Run, don't walk, away!
>
>
>
>
>


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>Jeff Kooistra wrote:=20

>>I think there was a BEWARE warning before I joined this list, and now =
I can see why...!=20

>No offense intended, Doug--I'm suspicious of everyone who does weird =
science, even though I do it myself.=20

No offense taken... actually, I kinda think that way too!

Doug

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
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there was a BEWARE warning before I joined this list, and now I can see =
why...!=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>&gt;No offense=20
intended, Doug--I'm suspicious of everyone who does weird science, even =
though I=20
do it myself. </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>No offense taken... =
actually, I kinda=20
think that way too!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3>Doug</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 10:52:39 2002
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Subject: Nuclear testing in Nevada
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Not in the news?

  Subcritical nuclear test yesterday
  http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=106498&messageid=1023553267


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William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 10:53:46 2002
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Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 13:41:06 -0400
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Subject: Re: Pulse of the Planet Critique
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Nick Reiter wrote:

>In my opinion...these people - the Correas - have a serious
>axe to grind that has nothing to do with discovery and science.

I too have always gotten that impression.


>Sorry, Gene- these folks seem really weird.  Believe me, I KNOW weird. 
>After following the thread of the discussion between you and Jed, I truly 
>have to fall on Jed's side of the fence.

Let me emphasize again that some people are weird, spiteful, antisocial yet 
brilliant. Examples include Galileo, Newton and Bill Gates by some 
accounts. I do not like Paulo Correa personally, but I have tried hard to 
separate that from my evaluation of his work. Some prominent CF scientists 
strike me as creeps and backstabbers, but I have complete faith in their 
work because it has passed peer-review and replication.

I am only human, I cannot be perfectly objective, so my opinion of Paulo's 
personality is bound to affect my judgement of his work. And, in a sense, 
it probably should. Correa has not passed peer review or independently 
replication as far as I know. Even if he were Einstein and Ghandi combined, 
and insufferably kind-hearted and magnanimous, we would still have no way 
to judge whether he is right or wrong. To some extent we must fall back to 
judging by externalities such as personality and presentation style. 
Unfortunately, Correa's personality will discourage independent 
verification, probably forever.

Correa has many other obvious problems. I cannot judge the quality of the 
PAGD research, but his ORAC experiments are sloppy, derivative and poorly 
thought-out. They are not calibrated and there is no control. Such errors 
are inexcusable! They leaped off the page the first time I read the paper. 
I made that mental list of seven major problems the first time I read the 
paper, and subsequently I have not read a word from the Correas or Mallove 
to undo the list. Even if the Correas are correct they will not be taken 
seriously or replicated. Many times in history, brilliant experiments have 
been ignored because they were badly implemented. This may be another gem 
hidden in a pile of muck. Then again, it may be just another meaningless, 
sloppy o-u claim that we can safely ignore. We can never be sure, but most 
sloppy research turns out to be the latter.


>I can see why they have not landed any financial support.  No-one I can 
>think of would pump venture capital into people who put on a website like 
>the Correas apparently have.

Absolutely right. As I said, even if you were convinced the PAGD claims are 
true and the patent is valid, you would have to be crazy to invest in 
people who write such things on a web site. It would be safer to "invent 
around" the patent, and settle with them later if necessary. That may seem 
unethical, but it would be much more unethical to risk millions of dollars 
on dysfunctional people who are cannot make rational business decisions. 
The more recent ORAC claims were originated by Reich and cannot be 
patented. The Correas have not added any significant intellectual property 
to the claims as far as I can see, so there would be no need to include 
them in a plan to commercialize the ORAC.


>The problem is...I wrote my little paper in 1998.  I never even heard of 
>the Correas until maybe 2000 or 2001!!!  How could I have given them credit?

Another temporal discontinuity. These seem to crop up often in discussions 
of the Correas. Perhaps they have also invented a time machine? Perhaps 
their gadget is so powerful it disrupts the space-time continuum, mixes up 
event sequences and destroys causality as-we-know-it.


>My parting advice to Gene Mallove:  Gene, I have respected your 
>publications, works and efforts in the past.  But without knowing them 
>personally, these folks look to me like the kind of trouble you don't 
>need. Run, don't walk, away!

Amen to that. I agree completely.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 11:24:18 2002
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Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly
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On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Horace Heffner wrote:

> >Yes, but air ions are created when neutral molecules are separated into
> >independant (+) and (-) particles...  with the average charge remaining
> >zero.
>
>
> You seem to be ignoring the fact the charge balance did not measure zero.

Oops!  I didn't notice that.

> >A charged metal object will create an e-field, and will induce equal
> >charges on the surfaces of distant objects.  The e-field will then drive
> >any positive air ions in one direction, and drive negative air-ions in the
> >opposite direction (i.e. the air is conductive.)
>
> Yes, and as I said above, the opposed charge will be attracted to the
> chagred conductor, thus tending to neutralize or discharge it.  The other
> charges will be dispursed and eventually go to ground or an opposite
> charged surface.  An electroscope is thus discharged by the moving
> conductive air.

Right, but I think this happens in the first few seconds.  In other words,
if you charge up an electroscope, the HV fields immediately sweep all the
ions away.   If you observe that the electroscope slowly discharges while
inside a sealed box, it's because of the new ion-pairs being created by
cosmic rays.


> If there is a fan then the main source of new ions should be the new air.

What new air?  I thought no new ions were coming in through the walls of
the box.

Or do you mean "new air" being presented to the electroscope terminal?  If
that new air contains

> The faster the air flow, and the higher the ion concentration, the greater
> the discharge current.

No, this is true only if the electroscope is still busy sweeping up the
pre-existing opposite ions.   On the other hand, if the air is mostly
ion-free, and any ions were recently created by cosmic rays, then moving
the air around would not alter it's conductivity.

But this is beside the point.  Why would Reich assume that a fan should
have an effect?   It's not that simple!   (If it was, then we wouldn't
be having this discussion.)


> >That would occur if ions were created preferentially (if the air contained
> >more positive ions than negative ones, or vice versa.)   But when cosmic
> >rays ionize the air, they create ion-pairs.   The air would remain
> >conductive yet neutral.
>
>
> No.  The kinetic energy of the air flow is capable of moving away a
> residual net charge.

Sure.  But it also moves away the OPPOSITE charges which are trying to get
to the electroscope in order to cancel out its charge.  Air is an
electrolytic conductor: there are two currents involved, each made from
ions of opposite polarity.  Do these effects cancel out?  Reich shouldn't
assume either answer.  If the fan affects the current, that's unsuprising
and I can explain why.  If the fan DOESN'T affect the current, that too is
unsuprising and I can explain why.  Conculsion: you can't make predictions
about OR which are dependant on the results of the fan experiment.  On the
contrary, depending on the results of the fan experiment you can make
predictions about which of several competing ion-based conductivity
effects is stronger.



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William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 11:39:00 2002
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Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 14:38:02 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Nuclear testing in Nevada
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This report in Japanese is published by the Chugoku Shimbun, headquartered 
in Hiroshima.

http://www.chugoku-np.co.jp/index.html
http://www.chugoku-np.co.jp/index_e.html

This newspaper has a highly anti-nuclear stance, for obvious reasons. It 
quotes U.S. DoE sources and comments by an organization I could not make 
out at first: The All-U.S. League of Anxious Scientists (zen-bei yuuryo 
kagakusya doumei). That's the Union of Concerned Scientists. Their web page 
does not yet have a comment on the tests, performed Friday, June 7.

Another report datelined tomorrow (June 9) says that many citizens in 
Hiroshima filed protests with the U.S. government, and 80 people 
participated in a polite 30-minute sit in, which is roughly equivalent to 
800 Americans rioting. (Japanese railroad labor strikes used to be 
scheduled for one hour in the early morning, to avoid disrupting traffic.) 
See the photo at:

http://www.chugoku-np.co.jp/News/Tn02060903.html

Japanese news often features a temporal discontinuity. It might be a side 
effect of the Correa device but most people suspect the Bermuda Triangle, 
the Trilateral Commission or the International Date Line is behind it.

In the major Japanese daily newspaper web sites this story is buried in 
single paragraph, back-page articles.

The Chugoku Shimbun reports about the U.S. test do not mention the dispute 
between India and Pakistan, but it occurs to me that this test was badly 
timed. The administration is trying to persuade Pakistan to stop testing 
missiles, back off from the brink, and eventually give up nuclear arms, 
while the DoE tells the world we are working to keep our bombs in mint 
condition. I recall that during the Cuban Missile Crisis some idiot in the 
Air Force went ahead with a missile test that had been scheduled months 
before.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 11:47:02 2002
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Subject: Re: Thunderstorm emissions
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On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Nick Reiter wrote:

> The first was suggested to me by a friend at the lab, to whom I had passed
> the observation on to.  While an IR emission is viable, what about near UV
> coming from a region under the storm cloud?  Possibly from ionization of
> species at the cloud base (N2?, CO2?, H2O?, etc.)  One might think that if
> the UV was the basis for the effect, that if you stared at the base of the
> cloud long enough, you would really get terribly sore eyes and
> conjunctivitis.  However, the UV would be blocked by the windshield glass, I
> believe.

That sounds possible.   But the effect seems more like a photocell
(reacting within a second or two.)   Also, I don't have the same response
to UV-rich sunlight.  However, that could involve psychology:  my brain
interprets a "pure" source of the mystery-radiation differently than it
interprets a source accompanied by blinding visible light and IR.


> What other forms of known energy are blocked by glass / laminates as well as
> the hand or eyelids?  Maybe someone has some ideas...millimeter waves?
> Long, soft X-rays?

If that kind of cloud has ice, it also has electrostatics.   Maybe I'm
responding to an e-field?  But it shouldn't be blocked by glass.  Huh,
glass could block a DC field, since during humid days glass develops a
slightly damp coating.


It could be microwaves, but NEGATIVE microwaves.  The entire 70F thermal
environment radiates microwaves as well as longwave IR.   If a cloud has a
large region of -50F hail, it would be like a "hole" in the ambient
microwave radiation.

Experiment:  cool the outside of a blimp with liquid nitrogen, then fly it
over my house.  Will it "feel" the same way that the base of a
thunderstorm "feels?"


Thermal radiation is weird because it's separate from the air temperature.
You can be immersed in 70F air, but then stand ten feet from a window
which looks out on -20F winter.  The window will seem to "radiate cold"
even though the air is actually warm.  In fact, the warm walls of the room
are radiating IR, and the icy glass of the window is a "hole" in your
optical thermal environment.


Another idea:  if this is an IR sense, and it only works when your eyes
are open, then maybe it will also detect WARM objects on cold winter days.
Unfortunately it's hard to separate it from normal vision.  I can't close
my eyes since it blocks out both, hence I assume that I'm SEEING a warm
object, and I don't notice that another sensory channel is also operating.
I need to carry a pair of glasses around with me.  They'd act like "closed
eyelids."   Hey, if most people have this weird 6th sense, then those who
wear glasses will shut it off.    DOes the world seem a bit different when
wearing glasses?   I mean, apart from the change in blurryness.   I think
I've noticed this too, but I put it down to the psychological effect of
occluding of peripheral vision.   Does wearing lens-less glasses frames
"feel" different than wearing glasses with flat undistorting lenses?  I
predict that it does.


Mammals with a visual "approaching storm detector" could know to head
across the fields to their burrows and not get caught out in a sudden
storm.  If they could tell the difference between clouds of identical
coloration (dark stratus versus the dark base of a storm cell), so much
the better.

PS
Regarding thunderstorms, I've heard that all storms which have fat
thick raindrops must also have huge updrafts and extreme cold.  The
raindrops must move through the cycle several times in order to grow so
large, and they typically freeze into hail, but then melt again before
they reach the ground.



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William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 12:30:59 2002
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It shocks me that Bush and the government think they can balance trying to
restore peace among warring Palestinians and Israelis in one hand, and the
carrying out of another operation which in my opinion should violate the
test-ban treaty if it doesn't already.  This is all while our military is
sent there and we are not told what happens to them.  Notice how Rumsfeld
has a knack for dodging questions...

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See:

http://www.theonion.com/onion3821/science_hard.html

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From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com>
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Subject: Re: Jed's comments on Reich's ORAC
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Gene,

I wrote:

>>  The Correa's own work is largely quality-free, so Paulo is hardly a
> > judge of sound experimental protocol.

You replied:

> Spoken like a true science bigot -- -Kooistra's comment rivals those of
Park
> and Rothwell, which is tough to do. Politics makes strange bedfellows.

Hardly--a science bigot like Park would not read Paulo's material at all.  I
did. So did Jed.  It is a simple matter of objective analysis to note that
Paulo's experimental methods are inadequate.  Faults in his method have been
pointed out to you repeatedly during this discussion.  Rather than
addressing the points raised, you have simply become obnoxious.

> Oh, for the good old days when Kooistra couldn't stand the ground Jed
> Rothwell walked on!

For the record, I have never detested Georgia (which is where the ground is
that Jed walks on).  As for Jed personally, in real life I barely know him.
I have met him in person twice, I think--both times he was pleasant and
well-spoken.  He never visited Bow while I worked for the magazine, but I
spoke with him on the phone a few times--again, the conversations were
cordial.  His online persona and my online persona can get annoyed with each
other, that's true.  But Jed did something I respect, which is to have run a
successful business, and he is a strong and eloquent defender of the
validity of CF.  I do not see how any of this is relevant to the
experimental method of the Correas--if I once thought Jed was God, or Satan,
it still wouldn't change the fact that the ORAC experiments are poorly done.

> It was good to have fired both Kooistra and GHK
> from Cold Fusion Technology, Inc. on the same day.

Indeed.  I never thanked you for that, but thank you!  Firing me will no
doubt remain your biggest accomplishment at Infinite Energy.

Jeff



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 14:23:27 2002
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Gene,

> >> Eugene F. Mallove wrote:
> >> I invite you and other readers to review the sorry history of Douglas
> >> Marett's behavior in 1996.

Then me:
> > I don't know Marett, and I'm automatically suspicious of anyone who
would
> > spend years studying Reich.  But the guy could be an axe murderer and it
> > still won't improve Paulo's experimental technique.

Then you (yawn):

> Bigotry again -- oh, so tiresome.

Yes, your use of the word bigotry is tiresome.  You refer to the "sorry
history of Douglas Marett's behavior in 1996."  Apparently, you have never
bothered to hear Doug's side of it, and yet you feel free to attack him.
That is a highly bigoted thing to do.  However, pointing out that the
Correas employed sloppy experimental technique after reading their own paper
in which they themselves reported what they did, is not.

Gene:
> >> You are a dilettante in this area from the word go.  It is not
> > gobbledygook.

Me:
> > A "dilettante" no less?  My my.  Jed doesn't have to be a stable boy to
> > recognize horsesh*t.

Gene:
> Boy, the fire power is getting pretty strong! Signs instability creeping
in
> as the pressure cooker goes up...

Simply an apt metaphor.  I could have said: "--doesn't have to be a plumber
to recognize a leak," or, "--doesn't need to be a sanitation worker to
recognize garbage."  Since the meaning seems to have been lost on you, let
me spell it out--Jed does not need to be able to run a rigorous experiment
himself to be able to note when an experiment lacks rigor.  You, yourself,
have never run a rigorous experiment--most science journalists have not.
This does not make either you or them incapable of spotting flawed work.  In
the case at hand, you seem unable to recognize inadequate work even when
those inadequacies have been pointed out to you numerous times by many
different people.

I do not follow your reference to a "pressure cooker."  I have no
intellectual, financial, or emotional connection to the Correa work.  I do
find it embarrassing that my name is listed as associate editor in some back
issues of a magazine which now so uncritically publishes such sad work.  But
beyond that, I have nothing to lose, nor anything to gain, by having the
Correas work shown to be inadequate.

You, on the other hand, seemed to have hitched your wagon to a dying horse.

You:
> >> Marett has discovered nothing at all.  Measuring the floor-to-ceiling
> >> gradient and correlating it with anything is laughable.

Me:
> > No it isn't--if he varied the gradient and found no correlation to the
hot
> > spot temperature, this would be very meaningful.
> > Indeed, it would go a long way toward eliminating the gradient as a
source
> > of error.

You:
> Oh, dear, what a know-it-all the man is.

One need not be a know-it-all to state what I did.  It is sufficient to be
something other than a know-nothing.

Me:
> > I can't address Jed's motives, Gene, but it seems pretty clear that the
> > editor of IE isn't likely to welcome papers critical of Reich and the
> > Correas.

You:
> I would welcome an intelligently written critique of any of the Correas'
> work, but it would have to address to my satisfaction the error sources
that
> the Correas have meticulously closed off.

Gene, you would never publish anything critical of the Correas (unless you
first labeled it as trash and then published it as an example of such--I
wouldn't put that past you).  If you did, if prior history is any guide,
they'd start attacking you and make you the latest of the "evil, evil men"
who have impeded the acceptance of their work.  It would be Santilli all
over again.

> And -- it would have to address explanations of devices such as
> aether motors, aether field meters, etc.

So far, you have been unable to understand our criticisms of their work with
a simple, metal box.

Me:
> > Seems to me that they, and you, regard criticism of their work as
certain
> > evidence that the criticizer hasn't examined their work carefully.

Gene:
> I know for a fact that you haven't. You can't claim to unless you have
> studied a good portion of their monographs in detail.

I read their paper in #37. As spelled out by many, it is shoddy work.
Furthermore, it is shoddy in a way that suggests that they "lack the chops"
to conduct experiments properly.  Since this work is so key to what they do
later, it seems a poor bet that their other work will stand up any better.
Beyond that, my statement stands--you have yet to address any of the
relevant criticisms we have brought forward.  As is apparent from other
posts, people who have actually done replications of Reich's work, and found
mundane explanations for his claims, are attacked as evil.  Those of us who
have attacked their work on procedural grounds, are written off as bigots.

> You have a theoretical bias agenda and you know it.

This might be a relevant criticism if I were addressing their theoretical
claims.  But I'm not.  I'm critical of their obviously faulty experimental
protocols.  These protocols are spelled out by them in their own paper.

You:
> >> Yes, and relying on ONE person -- such as Marett, who turns out to be
less
> >> than pristine -- to seek support for your ideas and battles, is quite
> >> dangerous.

Me:
> > Jed isn't relying on one person--nearly everyone he's asked, except for
you,

You:
> Oh, so Kooistra believes in the voting theory of science now - the one
> favored by Park et al?!  With the votes "counted" by Rothwell no less!!

Now Gene, try not to fall off the trolley.  I simply corrected your
incorrect statement.  You accused Jed of relying on one person, and I
reminded you that he has sought a great many other opinions.  This is quite
laudable given that he has never been partial to the Correas or their work.
If I felt about the Correas as he does, I would have been a good deal less
fair.

Me(continued):
> > agrees that the Correa's work is poorly executed, logically
inconsistent,
> > and written up in gobbledy-gook.

You:
> Well, I do suppose you have insufficient training to understand it. Poor
man.

Why would you suppose that?  You are not a scientist--you are a journalist.
You have been a good cheerleader for Cold Fusion, but a cheerleader is not a
quarterback.  I am a scientist.  I have my name on papers published in the
peer-reviewed literature, such as The Journal of Metal Physics.  This work
was mundane stuff, but it was also butt-reamingly rigorous.  The work
involved measuring the electrical properties of rare earth elements in the
liquid phase.  Rather than trying to take simple measurements involving a
metal box at room temperature, I took measurements of a highly corrosive
liquid metal in the 1100 to 1400 degree C range.  So I have more than
adequate training to understand their work.

You:
> OK, it's your and their right to hold that view.  Long long ago in/near a
> university far, far away (MIT), there were a handful of people (Mallove,
> Smullin, Hagelstein, Swartz, etc.) who were meticulously studying the
> evidence for cold fusion and finding legitimacy in it -- going against an
> ocean of bigotry which persists to this day. This was long before
> opportunistic toddlers like Kooistra and Rothwell entered the scene.

"Opportunistic toddlers?"  In case you haven't noticed, the opportunities
available in CF research are pretty few.  Beyond that, since I had myself
conducted excruciatingly difficult experimental work, it was immediately
evident to me that the attempted "replications" of CF immediately following
the March 23, 1989 announcement were a joke.  The world does not revolve
around MIT, Gene--indeed, I likely understood the relevance and validity of
CF before you did.

Of course, none of this gets us one inch closer to addressing the problems
of the Correa work.

> You are still toddlers.

Jed is a successful businessman.  I am a writer--my column has forty times
the readership of your magazine.

> Similarly, I am convinced that the evidence will favor
> the general findings about the aether presented by the Correas, Aspden,
and
> others, at the time of a similar sea of bigotry and ignorance.

The evidence so far presented is flawed, and obviously so.  Bigotry and
ignorance have nothing to do with it.

> As with cold fusion in its early two years, I am open to rejecting this
evidence for a
> new paradigm, if/when I find it flawed.  But I find the evidence
persuasive
> at this time.

The CF work was originally accomplished by two respected electrochemists.
The ORAC work was not, and as it is presented in IE, is obviously flawed.
These flaws have to do with methodology,  and should be corrected.
Accusations of bigotry and pre-pubescent name-calling will not correct those
flaws.

Jeff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 14:42:34 2002
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From: Patrick Dowland <patrick_dowland yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly 
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It was very good to see Marett's solid research.  But maybe Marett 
should not yet lose faith in his lifelong research in orgonomy, 
since after all, all he has is  6 pieces of data taken on one day, 
in a second-floor office (with maybe air-conditioning and fluorecent
lights and other office things) and there is not even any standard 
deviation or standard error given.

Quite facinating, these data.  The ion counts inside the boxes,
at least on first glance, don't show any correlation to the ion counts
outside the boxes.  The outside counts go up and down and so do the
counts inside, but without any connection to each other.  Also, 
sometimes the boxes block more positive ions than negative ions, and 
sometimes the other way around.  Of course a first glance can be
all wrong.  It would be curious to do more analysis of this, but its' 
a bit tough when all one has is 6 data points.  I am sure, though, that
if scientists like Coister and Rotwell apploud, then it must be solid 
research, and it is safe to draw any conclusions one wishes from it.

The impression I get from these data is that the ion level inside the
boxes is pretty constant, no matter what is happening outside.  So then
if what is really relevant to the way the electroscope discharges 
inside or outside the orgone accumulator is the ions, and the ion 
levels inside the accumulator are pretty constant, it makes one wonder
why the discharge inside orgone accumulators varies with the weather, 
the outside temperature, and the effects of the sun, as has been shown 
by Reich and by the Correas in their monograph AS2-06.

Also, in monograph AS2-02, the Correas examine the effect of solar ion
fluxes on electroscopes placed in the open air.  They show that for 
solar protons, there is no correlation that can be made between the 
variation of their flux and the discharging of electroscopes, whether 
charged positively or negatively.  For so-called relativistic 
electrons, they discover that there is a correlation between when the 
levels of these electrons are low and the slowing down of the discharge

(independent of polarity), but the correlation is not absolute, not 
causal, only tendential. From what I understand, the relevant thing 
about both these solar fluxes, the thing that would affect the 
electroscope, is that these solar protons and electrons have an 
ionizing effect, i.e., they generate both negative and positive ions.  
So these findings do not quite jibe with Marett's suspicion that one 
can explain the electroscopic anomaly, or much else significant about
the behaviour of electroscopes in the open air or inside accumulators, 
by ion levels.

Besides all this, it's a bit tricky what Marett says: that "the weather
dependence of the electroscopic discharge can be easily explained by 
the known fact that clouds carry with them large numbers of both 
positive and negative ions".  Not that this is false, but as Garwell 
says too (not in relation to his ion data, but in a different part
of his website)  the clouds  tend to have a positive charge on top 
and a negative charge on the bottom, the side facing the earth.  
So the clouds, taken all together, do carry both types of ions, 
but Marett forgot to mention the distribution of these ions, which 
would seem quite relevant if one was claiming that it was ions that 
were prominently responsibe for the speed of discharge of electroscopes

of both polarities at ground level.

Marett also sends us to Garwell's article on ion detection and calls 
it a very nice demonstration of the effect of cloud cover on ion 
levels.  I have to say that I don't see in Garwell's data any such 
demonstration, even though they may well be nice.  What I see is that 
his ion levels go up during the day and down at night, and yes, once 
during one of the three days there is a dip in the negative ions  
when there is also a dip in temperature and in light, which I assume 
means there was a cloud obstructing the sun.  I don't see any such 
dicernable correlation, even one, in his data for the positive ions.  

Garwell himself says, about the negative-ion data: "I find the 
interpretation of these results beyond me and I sould be very 
interested in comments.  At first sight the box would appear to be 
temperature sensitive.  The box waveform is similar to the temperature 
waveform but is about 2 hours later.  However on the 1st [I think he 
means on August 21st, that's the dip I was referring to] the dip in 
allumination [I think he means illumination] due to heavy cloud cover 
is followed in about 40 minutes with a dip in the box current.  This 
seems to be a significant difference.  On the 3rd [I think he means 
August 23rd] there is a dip in box output with no corresponding
dip in illumination or temperature."

Then about his postive-ion data he says: "Notice again the 
relationship between the box waveform and the temperature waveform 
[yes, I can see this, but only in the gross scale, between daytime 
and night].  The peaks seem to follow temperature without the 2 hour 
delay." "It really does look as though the system is temperature 
sensitive but remember the input is a voltage follower accepting
from +10 to -10 volts and the changes in voltage are up to 5 volts."

I am not sure that even Garwell himself would be so hasty as to call 
his data "a very nice demonstration of the effect of cloud cover on 
ion levels".  But I don't doubt that when Marett says it, just as 
when he says anything else, there is any solid science behind it. 


Cheers,

Patrick




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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 17:00:46 2002
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Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly
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At 11:21 AM 6/8/2, William Beaty wrote:

>> If there is a fan then the main source of new ions should be the new air.
>
>What new air?  I thought no new ions were coming in through the walls of
>the box.


Ohhhh..., sorry!  OK, I didn't understand that the box was (to be)
completely closed when the fan was on.  I guess that was pretty obvious!


In that light, one might hypothesize that the air movement itself (from the
fan) increases ionization by raising the air temperature, thus moving the
ion equilibrium point, and also by increasing air-surface interaction
(molecule to surface ionizing collisions, especially those collisions with
a charged surface which result in ionization).  Also, in a wooden
enclosure, the air might dehydrate the wood, thus increasing humidity and
thus lowering air conductivity.  Further, considering that the conductivity
of air is not zero, one might conclude that, as with thermal conductivity,
mass flow is far more effective at transport than simple diffusion.  Also,
if the fan motor has brushes then (artifact) ionization can come from the
fan motor.  All this discussion is purely qualitative, but it points out
the importance of a quantitative analysis.



>
>Or do you mean "new air" being presented to the electroscope terminal?  If
>that new air contains

Yes, I assumed the fan would draw in new air.


>
>> The faster the air flow, and the higher the ion concentration, the greater
>> the discharge current.
>
>No, this is true only if the electroscope is still busy sweeping up the
>pre-existing opposite ions.


I feel the strongest relevant effect might be the ability of the
electroscope surface to ionize impinging molecules.  Increasing the surface
voltage must necessarily increase the ionization rate.  You should feel the
wind and smell the ionization in a small room when a big 100 KV DC terminal
is present.  I recently had that experience!  Smaller voltages should have
smaller but non-zero ionizing effects.  SOME surface ionization results
purely due to the Gassian distribuition of the air particle kinetic energy.
There must exist a continuum of ionization rates vs electroscope voltage.
Air flow should increase that ionization rate both by increasing kinetic
energy (small effect) and by increasing ionization opportunity (large
effect).



>On the other hand, if the air is mostly
>ion-free, and any ions were recently created by cosmic rays, then moving
>the air around would not alter it's conductivity.
>
>But this is beside the point.  Why would Reich assume that a fan should
>have an effect?   It's not that simple!   (If it was, then we wouldn't
>be having this discussion.)


If the electroscope surface ionization rate increases then an increased
conductivity exists between the electroscope and any conductive outer
shell.  The Faraday ice pail effect then can discharge the electroscope to
the outer conductive surface via ion charge exchange.


>
>
>> >That would occur if ions were created preferentially (if the air contained
>> >more positive ions than negative ones, or vice versa.)   But when cosmic
>> >rays ionize the air, they create ion-pairs.   The air would remain
>> >conductive yet neutral.
>>
>>
>> No.  The kinetic energy of the air flow is capable of moving away a
>> residual net charge.
>
>Sure.  But it also moves away the OPPOSITE charges which are trying to get
>to the electroscope in order to cancel out its charge.

Well, the similar charges are repelled by the electroscope, so really don't
need any help getting to the outer walls to dissipate the electroscope
charge, and the OPPOSITE charges carried to and then attracted to the
electroscope are neutralized, so cannot be carried away by the wind.  The
unlike charges are naturally attracted to the electroscope, and these
neutralize the electroscope.  See + electroscope example below.


       Wind ===========>                      Metal Wall
                              (+repelled)    ----------------------
  +   -   +   -   +   -   +        +       +       + ^      +   +       +
     +   -   +   -   +|  -   +    -     +   -   +    |  +
  +   -   +   -   + - v  |   +   -    +       +      +   -                  -
   (-attracted)  ++++++++v+++++              Excess positive charge
                 +Electroscope+              mutually repells itself
                 +            +              to outer walls

Now, if the charges were nearly all +, then then wind might actually be
capable of maintaining a + charge on the electroscope by pushing the +
charges to it, especially if they were somehow pushed inside a conductor in
the electroscope in a manner simimlar to a van de Graff generator.


>Air is an
>electrolytic conductor: there are two currents involved, each made from
>ions of opposite polarity.  Do these effects cancel out?  Reich shouldn't
>assume either answer.


Agreed - especially knowing the charge balance might not be zero.


>If the fan affects the current, that's unsuprising
>and I can explain why.  If the fan DOESN'T affect the current, that too is
>unsuprising and I can explain why.  Conculsion: you can't make predictions
>about OR which are dependant on the results of the fan experiment.

Amen - not unless you have a calibrated quantitative model.

>On the
>contrary, depending on the results of the fan experiment you can make
>predictions about which of several competing ion-based conductivity
>effects is stronger.


Yes, always safer to apply measured values!  Its a case of "hindsight"
always being better.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Horace Heffner wrote:

> In that light, one might hypothesize that the air movement itself (from the
> fan) increases ionization by raising the air temperature, thus moving the
> ion equilibrium point,

If all the ionization is caused by cosmic rays, then the air temperature
might not affect it.  (Or would air temperature affect the rate of
opposite-ion recombination?)


 and also by increasing air-surface interaction
> (molecule to surface ionizing collisions, especially those collisions with
> a charged surface which result in ionization).

Collisions don't cause ionization.  Think "ionizing radiation."  It takes
a relatively huge KE collision to tear electrons off an air molecule.


> >No, this is true only if the electroscope is still busy sweeping up the
> >pre-existing opposite ions.
>
>
> I feel the strongest relevant effect might be the ability of the
> electroscope surface to ionize impinging molecules.  Increasing the surface
> voltage must necessarily increase the ionization rate.  You should feel the
> wind and smell the ionization in a small room when a big 100 KV DC terminal
> is present.

True, but that's caused by corona at the metal surface, and any corona
would drastically lower the electrical resistance of the air... which
would discharge the electroscope to the point where the corona plasma
would "wink out."  Even a speck of lint on a smooth terminal can provide a
massive leakage path via corona.  Since corona causes the voltage to race
towards zero, I think all the corona would vanish within a moment of
disconnecting the charger from the electroscope.

  I recently had that experience!  Smaller voltages should have
> smaller but non-zero ionizing effects.  SOME surface ionization results
> purely due to the Gassian distribuition of the air particle kinetic energy.

That's an interesting point.  We'd want to know the amount of ionization
created by 30C room temperature, as opposed to the amount caused by cosmic
rays.  I think the cosmic ray ionization is orders of magnitude larger,
but I don't know how many orders of magnitude.


> electroscope are neutralized, so cannot be carried away by the wind.  The
> unlike charges are naturally attracted to the electroscope, and these
> neutralize the electroscope.  See + electroscope example below.
>
>
>        Wind ===========>                      Metal Wall
>                               (+repelled)    ----------------------
>   +   -   +   -   +   -   +        +       +       + ^      +   +       +
>      +   -   +   -   +|  -   +    -     +   -   +    |  +
>   +   -   +   -   + - v  |   +   -    +       +      +   -                  -
>    (-attracted)  ++++++++v+++++              Excess positive charge
>                  +Electroscope+              mutually repells itself
>                  +            +              to outer walls


It messed up.   Was it wider than 70 columns?



I wonder if an air-leakage ohmmeter would tell anything more than the
electroscope.  Such a thing would allow a graph of instantaneous
measurements to be made, as opposed to counting the seconds needed to
discharge the electroscope.

I wonder if high voltage is a necessary part of any claimed OR effect?
I.e. if the electroscope was charged to only 10V and then measured with
some extremely sensitive method, wouldn't that be the same as charging it
to 2000V and measuring the discharge by eye.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 19:48:29 2002
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From: "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller midiowa.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Thunderstorm emissions
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 21:41:49 -0500
Organization: Miller and Associates
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On Sat, 8 Jun 2002 09:04:16 -0400, "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
wrote:

>The first was suggested to me by a friend at the lab, to whom I had passed
>the observation on to.  While an IR emission is viable, what about near UV
>coming from a region under the storm cloud?  Possibly from ionization of
>species at the cloud base (N2?, CO2?, H2O?, etc.)  One might think that if
>the UV was the basis for the effect, that if you stared at the base of the
>cloud long enough, you would really get terribly sore eyes and
>conjunctivitis.  However, the UV would be blocked by the windshield glass, I
>believe.

I'm much more in favor of the UV idea than IR.  Bill mentioned his
windshield and side windows block IR, but I suspect that's not the
case.  IR (heat) seems to go through most glass just fine.

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 20:51:17 2002
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Subject: The Three (or is it 4 or 5?)  Stooges Meet the Aether 
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Vortexians,

My, my how these scoundrels - Marett, Rothwell, and Kooistra -- do carry on,
re-writing history, falsifying science -- applauding trash and degrading the
good and the difficult which is beyond them. Even altering my credentials,
publication record and work history (Kooistra)!  It's known as projection, I
think.  I just knew there had to be some subtle connection in intellectual
caliber and integrity between Kooistra and DoE's John Huizenga -- after all,
they both went Calvin College!   "Or shut up," indeed, Jed.  You'll be shut
up yourself, quite soundly.

This Vortex effluent is really quite amusing. It will be fertile material
for a good number of critiques -- and they are coming. But for today,
because it happens to be the weekend of my birthday, and while relaxing with
some overdue landscaping and work with humus-manure mixtures, I've had quite
enough dealing with bullshit for one day than to get a triple dose on
Vortex.  I'll just pause and let these little midgets amuse themselves and
add to the pile of material for The Stooges Meet the Aether. When to expect
it?  Just wait.  Perhaps it will be a good long wait -- or maybe a short
one. It depends on my taste and spare time and how much effluent it makes
sense to filter.  This forum has become a cesspool.  I simply must allow
some time for serious work --not wasteful, though interesting, cleanup after
the Stooges' Vortex mouthings.  I need to carefully consider and digest the
appalling nonsense and deception that has oozed all over this place these
days.


Cheers...

Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 22:14:58 2002
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Nuclear testing in Nevada
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Its a little accusitory.  e/g "Bush" performed nuke test?

I honestly thought they had scientests that did that.  :-)


--- William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Not in the news?
> 
>   Subcritical nuclear test yesterday
>  
>
http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=106498&messageid=1023553267
> 
> 
> (((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 22:18:08 2002
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Guys...  Somehow I missed the original message...  Visual effect?


--- "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller midiowa.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Jun 2002 09:04:16 -0400, "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
> wrote:
> 
> >The first was suggested to me by a friend at the lab, to whom I had
> passed
<<HACK>>

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun  8 22:52:20 2002
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Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 00:49:55 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: snappy come back to Parksie
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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>snappy come back to Parksie</title></head><body>
<div>vortexians;</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I saw this posted on the SVP list and found it amusing.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="-1" color="#000000">Nobel Laureate
physicist Douglas Osheroff of Stanford University has called the
hydrino a &quot;crackpot idea,&quot; while American Physical Society
spokesman Robert Park includes Mills' work in the category of
&quot;voodoo science.&quot; Park compares attempting to go below the
ground state to trying to travel &quot;south of the South
Pole.&quot;</font><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="-1" color="#000000">&nbsp;&nbsp;
Pardon me, Mr. Park, but isn't straight up south of the south
pole?</font><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="-1"
color="#000000"
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span
></span
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span
></span
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span
></span
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span
></span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Love and Light John McGrath</font></div>
<x-sigsep><pre>-- 
</pre></x-sigsep>
</body>
</html>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  9 08:23:35 2002
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Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 07:26:17 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly
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At 5:40 PM 6/8/2, William Beaty wrote:
>On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Horace Heffner wrote:
>
>> In that light, one might hypothesize that the air movement itself (from the
>> fan) increases ionization by raising the air temperature, thus moving the
>> ion equilibrium point,
>
>If all the ionization is caused by cosmic rays, then the air temperature
>might not affect it.


The basic idea I am suggesting to examine is that ionization is a contact
phenomenon, that it is NOT all cosmic rays.  Molecule-molecule and
molecule-surface  contact is increased by increasing air flow, vortecies,
etc., i.e. by increasing air kinetic energy and by increasing long range
mobility of ions above the diffusion rate.  Temperature might be much more
significant to current flow than to ionization rate.  Again, this is only
qualitative discussion, and a quantitative model is necessary to make sound
predictions.


>(Or would air temperature affect the rate of
>opposite-ion recombination?)


Yes, that too.  Ion concentration should "seek" an equilibrium.


>
>
> and also by increasing air-surface interaction
>> (molecule to surface ionizing collisions, especially those collisions with
>> a charged surface which result in ionization).
>
>Collisions don't cause ionization.  Think "ionizing radiation."  It takes
>a relatively huge KE collision to tear electrons off an air molecule.


The ionization only needs only a few ev, a small number compared to the
100's of volts to which an electroscope is typically charged.   True,
ionization at room temperature should be small, but it is also true that it
is non-zero.  Clearly the more significant effects must be due to the high
voltage of the electroscope, but molecular mobility has an effect too.
Temperature has much more effect on ion mobililty than on kinetic
ionization.  However, the small kinetic energy component might be
observable when added to another larger energy component, like the ionizing
effect of the electroscope voltage.


>
>
>> >No, this is true only if the electroscope is still busy sweeping up the
>> >pre-existing opposite ions.
>>
>>
>> I feel the strongest relevant effect might be the ability of the
>> electroscope surface to ionize impinging molecules.  Increasing the surface
>> voltage must necessarily increase the ionization rate.  You should feel the
>> wind and smell the ionization in a small room when a big 100 KV DC terminal
>> is present.
>
>True, but that's caused by corona at the metal surface, and any corona
>would drastically lower the electrical resistance of the air...


Uhhh...., a rose by any other name would ionize as sweetly?  In corona
discharge electical resistance of air is lowered by ions, which are created
by (surface) contact.  This IS what we are talking about isn't it?  It is
ONLY current from the electroscope metal surface that can discharge the
electroscope. It is true that the cascade effect plays a role in corona
discharge, but that is a secondary effect, and one which must also exist to
some small degree even in a few 100 volt surface discharge.

The original hypothesis was "that the air movement itself (from the fan)
increases ionization by raising the air temperature, thus moving the ion
equilibrium point, and also by increasing air-surface interaction (molecule
to surface ionizing collisions, especially those collisions with a charged
surface which result in ionization)."



>which
>would discharge the electroscope to the point where the corona plasma
>would "wink out."


It should only "wink out" if the voltage of the electroscope plus the
kinetic energy (a small fraction of a volt) is less than the ionization
energy for N2 or O2 or H2O.  However, it can never wink out totally,
because the ionization tail remains at any temperature and electroscope
voltage.


>Even a speck of lint on a smooth terminal can provide a
>massive leakage path via corona.  Since corona causes the voltage to race
>towards zero, I think all the corona would vanish within a moment of
>disconnecting the charger from the electroscope.


If a voltage remains on the electroscope then there are identifyable
physical phenomena by which to hypothesize that the discharge continues,
with or without the charger.  The charger only prevents a voltage decline.
The question at hand is whether it is reasonable to expect a fan to
increase the discharge rate, based on the nature of the physical phenomena
identified. I think the answer is that there is sufficient reason to
experiment to obtain an answer, if that answer is important.


>
>  I recently had that experience!  Smaller voltages should have
>> smaller but non-zero ionizing effects.  SOME surface ionization results
>> purely due to the Gassian distribuition of the air particle kinetic energy.
>
>That's an interesting point.  We'd want to know the amount of ionization
>created by 30C room temperature, as opposed to the amount caused by cosmic
>rays.  I think the cosmic ray ionization is orders of magnitude larger,
>but I don't know how many orders of magnitude.


I agree with that orders of magnitude estimate.  However,it is not at all
clear the effect of temperature when combined with the other factors.  The
effect of temperature may be very significant (observable) on discharge
rate, and on final potential reached for a fixed period of discharge.



>
>
>> electroscope are neutralized, so cannot be carried away by the wind.  The
>> unlike charges are naturally attracted to the electroscope, and these
>> neutralize the electroscope.  See + electroscope example below.
>>
>>
>>        Wind ===========>                      Metal Wall
>>                               (+repelled)    ----------------------
>>   +   -   +   -   +   -   +        +       +       + ^      +   +       +
>>      +   -   +   -   +|  -   +    -     +   -   +    |  +
>>   +   -   +   -   + - v  |   +   -    +       +      +   -                  -
>>    (-attracted)  ++++++++v+++++              Excess positive charge
>>                  +Electroscope+              mutually repells itself
>>                  +            +              to outer walls
         1         2         3         4          5         6          7
>
>
>It messed up.   Was it wider than 70 columns?

Yes.  Are you using (the required) courrier type?  Maybe this is better:


       Wind ===========>                      Metal Wall
                              (+repelled)    ----------------------
  +   -   +   -   +   -   +        +       +       + ^      +   +
     +   -   +   -   +|  -   +    -     +   -   +    |  +
  +   -   +   -   + - v  |   +   -    +       +      +   -
   (-attracted)  ++++++++v+++++             Excess positive charge
                 +Electroscope+             mutually repells itself
                 +            +             to outer walls

         1         2         3         4          5         6          7

>
>
>
>I wonder if an air-leakage ohmmeter would tell anything more than the
>electroscope.  Such a thing would allow a graph of instantaneous
>measurements to be made, as opposed to counting the seconds needed to
>discharge the electroscope.


This is an excellent idea, though a microammeter on the power supply
(charger) would possibly be desirable - if you consider that to be a true
distinction.  It may be necessary to increase the surface area of the
"electroscope" terminal to measure the discharge per cm^2 per volt using a
microammeter.  It would also be useful to make the surface geometry
uniform, say by making the electrostatic field uniform as well, buy
measuring the discharge rate between two parallel plates.


>
>I wonder if high voltage is a necessary part of any claimed OR effect?
>I.e. if the electroscope was charged to only 10V and then measured with
>some extremely sensitive method, wouldn't that be the same as charging it
>to 2000V and measuring the discharge by eye.


I think 2000 V is very significant compared to the few ev (less than 20 ev)
required to ionize air molecules.  However, 10 ev is marginal.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly 
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> It was very good to see Marett's solid research.  But maybe Marett
> should not yet lose faith in his lifelong research in orgonomy,
> since after all, all he has is  6 pieces of data taken on one day,
> in a second-floor office (with maybe air-conditioning and fluorecent
> lights and other office things) and there is not even any standard
> deviation or standard error given.

There were no air conditioners or fluorescent lights, or computers, in the
room at the time of this experiment.

> Quite facinating, these data.  The ion counts inside the boxes,
> at least on first glance, don't show any correlation to the ion counts
> outside the boxes.  The outside counts go up and down and so do the
> counts inside, but without any connection to each other.  Also,
> sometimes the boxes block more positive ions than negative ions, and
> sometimes the other way around.  Of course a first glance can be
> all wrong.  It would be curious to do more analysis of this, but its'
> a bit tough when all one has is 6 data points.  I am sure, though, that
> if scientists like Coister and Rotwell apploud, then it must be solid
> research, and it is safe to draw any conclusions one wishes from it.

I am of course dealing with Wilhelm Reich's theory, and the extraordinary
claims he makes based on his observations.
It was up to the late Dr. Reich to convince his readers of the validity of
his arguements. It is to those arguements that I have addressed my critique.
Let's go through Dr. Reich's thought process. In his book "The Cancer
Biopathy", on page 128, he states "the electroscope discharges more slowly
inside the orgone accumulator than outside it. This would imply that orgone
energy is something other than negative electricity."
    However, it does not imply this at all. We only know that an
electroscope discharges more slowly inside than outside. The electroscope
measures air ionization - that's what it was designed to do. What Reich
needed to show for this to really be an anomaly is that ions could not be
responsible. The first thing he should have done is to check to see if ion
levels are lower inside the box than outside. He doesn't do this, for
whatever reason. Instead, he just blows a fan around his electroscope to see
if it discharges faster. For this fan test, Dr. Reich does not provide one
single data point!

    In the post that your refer to, I in fact provide 53 data points on the
question of ion levels inside of enclosures as compared to outside,
including with fan treatment, and examining both positive and negative ions.
Since each data point is based on 10 individual readings, I in fact provided
data based on 530 readings, a good day's work. And I only posted part of my
data to not burden the list with a long and boring posting. One can knock
one's self out collecting mountains of data and analyzing it statistically,
but when the answer is obvious, why waste precious time?

    But perhaps you are still not satisfied. Let's go deeper still.
On page 140 of the Cancer Biopathy, Dr. Reich presents his second premise
with regard to electroscopic discharge rate - its diurnal variation. He
present graphs of his observations, in Fig. 16 (P.138-39) showing this
intraday variation for a total of 11 days, under various weather conditions.
I do not doubt that Dr. Reich was conscientious and reported the values that
he actually observed. Dr. Reich observes " The electroscope discharges more
rapidly in the early morning and late evening than at noon. Just the
opposite would be expected if the laws of "air electricity" were to be
followed.
    But on this count I must totally disagree with Dr. Reich. After
researching this further, I have found that this is precisely the pattern
one would expect from "air electricity". Levels of atmospheric ions, and
diurnal changes in the Earth's vertical potential gradient have been
thoroughly studied over the last 100 years, and there are lots of textbook
descriptions of these phenomenon.  In general, it is most often reported
that the vertical potential gradient, and the atmospheric ions associated
with it, vary during fair weather with a peak in the early morning and late
evening, and the lowest levels being in the middle of the day. This is why I
cited Garwell's online paper. It appears to show this effect.

> Marett also sends us to Garwell's article on ion detection and calls
> it a very nice demonstration of the effect of cloud cover on ion
> levels.  I have to say that I don't see in Garwell's data any such
> demonstration, even though they may well be nice.  What I see is that
> his ion levels go up during the day and down at night, and yes, once
> during one of the three days there is a dip in the negative ions
> when there is also a dip in temperature and in light, which I assume
> means there was a cloud obstructing the sun.  I don't see any such
> dicernable correlation, even one, in his data for the positive ions.

    I believe you have mis-read Garwell's paper. You are reading his graphs
upside down. He states that "The highest points on the waveforms being zero
volts ie the current is zero." But he also states that " current is
generated by the positive or negative ions". Thus, when you read zero volts
on his graphs, you are reading the lowest ion levels, not the highest.
Thus stems your confusion. What his graphs show very neatly, is that for
both positive and negative ions during fair weather, the ion levels are
highest (at + or - 5 V) in the early morning and late evening, and lowest
( zero volts) in the middle of the day, exactly as Reich observed! And
better yet, when the clouds pass over on the first, the ion levels increase
towards -5 volts. This shows, as one would expect, that increased cloud
cover leads to higher ion levels.

Fine. So for me, the lower ion concentration in the box is the first strike
against Reich. The second is the explainable diurnal variation. So what is
left? Reich's entire arguement of the orgone revolves around its causative
role in weather formation. He argues that for sunny, fine weather, the
orgone is highest, and thus the electroscope discharges slowest (which
completely fits with his functionalist thinking). And for cloudy or rainy
weather, the orgone is lowest (at least at the ground) and that is why the
electroscope discharges fastest. Can atmospheric ions explain this too? Of
course they can.
The fact that atmospheric ions are high at the ground during cloudy or
stormy weather is so well known that I do not have to remind the educated
reader. And the opposite is true for fair weather. And this is totally borne
out by the arguement I just presented above. I have also confirmed this with
days and days of ion observations, but don't take my word for it, just check
any textbook.

So for me that is strike three. The orgone theory is an extraordinary theory
that requires extraordinary proofs.  I do not believe that Reich controlled
his experiments sufficiently to ever address the effects of ions on his
electroscope, the very thing his electroscope was designed to measure. What
would compel us to think differently?

On another note, I think I am likely going to withdraw the articles on my
terrapulse.ca website until I have had a chance to properly explain on that
site why I think the data in them might better be explained by conventional
physics.

Doug







> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
> http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
>
>


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  9 13:26:18 2002
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Subject: Re: The Three (or is it 4 or 5?)  Stooges Meet the Aether 
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Gene:

This is a terribly depressing message. The language and tone go too far, in 
my opinion. It is inappropriate to this forum, obscene, childish, petulant, 
evasive and off-topic. I urge you to dispense with this sort of thing and 
respond to the technical issues I and others have brought up.

In our opinion, the report by Marett describing his own research is more 
credible and better written than the report by Correa describing similar 
research. If you disagree, you should address the technical content of the 
two reports. Telling us that Correa accuses Marett of "bad behavior in 
1996" is irrelevant. This is not a gossip forum. Marett's behavior toward 
Correa may be abominable for all I know, but Marett did most of his 
research before he heard of Correa and before Correa published anything 
about the Reich effect, so any enmity between them cannot have affected the 
report. I do not want to hear anything more about Correa's personal 
opinions of other people, or his anger, or yours for that matter. I doubt 
anyone else here wants to hear about those subjects. I do not think you are 
winning this debate, or garnering readers, or helping your cause in any 
way. If you insist on discussing such things, please direct the messages to 
Vortex-BL, or I & others are may soon filter your messages and direct them 
to the trash bin.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  9 13:51:15 2002
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Subject: Re: The Three (or is it 4 or 5?)  Stooges Meet the Aether 
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Vortexians,

I'm sorry this lovefest has muddied up the forum.  No doubt by now many of
you are beginning to suspect how difficult it must be, and must have been,
to work for a man like Gene.

One point still left unaddressed is why neither the Correas nor the staff at
NERL have calibrated this Stirling motor they are using.  I suspect that
either none of them know how, or worse, none of them had even thought to do
it.

I have already discussed my relationship with Jed Rothwell.  As for my
fellow scoundrel Doug Marett (I don't know why Gene didn't follow through
with his title and call us Stooges here in the body of his note), up until a
couple days ago I had never heard of him.

I will only briefly attend to the silly points here in Gene's note.  Feel
free to skip it if you like--it won't get us one inch closer to proper
experimental protocol.

> My, my how these scoundrels - Marett, Rothwell, and Kooistra -- do carry
on,
> re-writing history, falsifying science -- applauding trash and degrading
the
> good and the difficult which is beyond them.

First the name calling, then the accusation of "carrying on" when we are
simply replying to his own statements, followed by a list of detail-free
allegations, concluding with the self-serving declaration that we are
degrading "the difficult which is beyond them," implying of course that it
is not beyond him.  How melodramatic.

> Even altering my credentials,
> publication record and work history (Kooistra)!

If I have altered Gene's credentials, publication record, or work history
anywhere in my posts, it was unintentional and I am sorry.  He is welcome to
correct them.  However, I bear little pity for a man who has trashed Doug
Marett for no discernible reason, trashed his long-time associate Jed
Rothwell for pointing out obvious flaws in experimental protocol, and
trashed me for coming down on Jed's side.

>  It's known as projection, I think.

I don't think that Gene making an ass of himself in a public forum has
anything to do with projection.

> I just knew there had to be some subtle connection in intellectual
> caliber and integrity between Kooistra and DoE's John Huizenga -- after
all,
> they both went Calvin College!

Boy--talk about grasping at straws for ammunition!  Yes, DoE's Huizenga went
to Calvin College and I think graduated before I was born.  The Huizenga
behind the Blockbuster Video success also went to Calvin College.  There is
some point here?  Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?  Didn't most of Gene's problems
at MIT involve *gasp* other guys who had attended.......MIT!!!!?

> "Or shut up," indeed, Jed.  You'll be shut up yourself, quite soundly.

Somehow, I doubt that Jed is shaking in his boots right now.

> This Vortex effluent is really quite amusing. It will be fertile material
> for a good number of critiques -- and they are coming.

Spare us the critiques, Gene--rather, spend the time calibrating the
Stirling motor.

> But for today, because it happens to be the weekend of my birthday,

Happy birthday, Gene!

> and while relaxing with some overdue landscaping and work with
humus-manure mixtures,
> I've had quite enough dealing with bullshit for one day than to get a
triple dose on
> Vortex.

Indeed--it was more blessed to give than to receive, wasn't it, Gene?

> I'll just pause and let these little midgets amuse themselves and
> add to the pile of material for The Stooges Meet the Aether. When to
expect
> it?  Just wait.  Perhaps it will be a good long wait

I've no doubt that it will be a looooooooong, long wait, unless it's to be
more of the same we've seen already.

>-- or maybe a short one. It depends on my taste and spare time and how much
effluent it makes
> sense to filter.  This forum has become a cesspool.  I simply must allow
> some time for serious work

I hope you will find time to calibrate the Stirling motor.

> --not wasteful, though interesting, cleanup after
> the Stooges' Vortex mouthings.  I need to carefully consider and digest
the
> appalling nonsense and deception that has oozed all over this place these
days.

If you had properly considered your appalling nonsense prior to writing it,
you could have saved us all a lot of time.

***

This all having been said, I will once again risk your slings and arrows by
suggesting that you take Jed's reply to your post to heart and simply stick
with the technical issues.  There is no cabal, there is no collusion, there
is no plotting against you and the Correas.  You posted a four-part magnum
opus to vortex--we asked you about problems with the experimental protocols.
This prompted you to create the very cesspool you're now complaining about.

Now take a day or two to cool off, chill out--enjoy your birthday.  The
cesspool will drain while your away and remain drained if you stop filling
it.

Cheers,

Jeff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun  9 14:08:42 2002
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Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 13:14:35 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly
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At 5:40 PM 6/8/2, William Beaty wrote:

>Even a speck of lint on a smooth terminal can provide a
>massive leakage path via corona.

Say... you have really focused in on what may be the key issue regarding
the ability of a fan to (continually) discharge the electroscope.  That
issue is electrode geometry, or more specifically, the maximum voltage
gradient generated.   Since the mean free path in air is so short, it is
the voltage gradient that is key to ionization, not absolute voltage.
Small imperfections in the electroscope metal terminal would be key to its
ability to ionize air.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 10 01:05:33 2002
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From: Patrick Dowland <patrick_dowland yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly 
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Marett wrote:

> There were no air conditioners or fluorescent lights, or computers, 
> in the room at the time of this experiment.

It sure is a relief to know this.  And in the building?

> I am of course dealing with Wilhelm Reich's theory, and the 
> extraordinary claims he makes based on his observations.
> It was up to the late Dr. Reich to convince his readers of 
> the validity of his arguements. It is to those arguements that 
> I have addressed my critique. 
> Let's go through Dr. Reich's thought process. In his book "The Cancer
> Biopathy", on page 128, he states "the electroscope discharges more 
> slowly inside the orgone accumulator than outside it. This would 
> imply that orgone energy is something other than negative 
> electricity."
>    However, it does not imply this at all. We only know that an
> electroscope discharges more slowly inside than outside. The 
> electroscope measures air ionization - that's what it was 
> designed to do. What Reich needed to show for this to really be an 
> anomaly is that ions could not be responsible. The first thing 
> he should have done is to check to see if ion levels are lower 
> inside the box than outside. He doesn't do this, for whatever 
> reason. Instead, he just blows a fan around his electroscope to see
> if it discharges faster. For this fan test, Dr. Reich does not 
> provide one single data point!

I see that you have a very good project here.  But I am having some 
trouble right off the bat.  As the Correas point out in many places,
Reich always charged his electroscopes negatively.  I am sure this is
no news to you, you being a thoughtful guy and a scientist who 
has studied Reich all his life.  Here is one quote about this from the
Correas' monograph AS2-04, page 15:

  "Whenever one strokes or rubs a dielectric rod on the hair of a human 
  being, the rod becomes charged with an excess of negative charge, as 
  shown by demonstrating how an electroscope directly charged or 
  influenced by such a hair-charged rod, will exhibit depression of 
  the leaf deflection at the approximation of a positively charged 
  element and, conversely, will exhibit a greater leaf deflection
  at the approximation of a negatively charged element.

  This is a basic fact which Reich neglects to mention -- that the 
  electroscopes he employed for his studies were always charged 
  negatively, including those he placed within ORAC enclosures in order 
  to study how the latter affected their charge leakage rate."

But then if the electroscope that Reich used was negatively charged,
and it discharged more slowly inside the orgone accumulator than 
outside, that would seem to show that orgone _is_ negative 
electricity, no?  The opposite of what Reich thought it showed.
Negative electricity is exactly what would make a negative 
electroscope discharge more slowly.  So if you want to examine the 
mistakes in  Reich's thought process, why do you need to go any further 
than that?  The poor guy just made a fundamental logical error.  He 
made a big noise about how he discovered the orgone, when all it was 
was negative electricity.  For this, you don't need any ionization 
studies, your own, or Garwell's, or anobody else's. 

But no, you don't mention that obvious mistake, and instead you go into
the argument about ions.  Why?  It's got to be because you know and 
assume something that Reich never said, and for all we know didn't 
know: that it is not just negatively charged electroscopes that 
discharge more slowly in the accumulator, but positively charged 
electroscopes too.  So you are bringing in something from outside 
Reich's work, even though you claim that you are of course
only addressing your critique to Reich's arguments and nothing else.  
And whose results is it that you are building on, without mentioning 
doing so?  As far as I can see, it's got to be the Correas' results, 
because I don't know of anybody else who has published results 
that compare the slowdown of the discharge of both positive and 
negative electroscopes inside ORACs.

>    In the post that your refer to, I in fact provide 53 data points 
> on the question of ion levels inside of enclosures as compared to 
> outside, including with fan treatment, and examining both positive 
> and negative ions.  Since each data point is based on 10 individual 
> readings, I in fact provided data based on 530 readings, a good day's
> work. And I only posted part of my data to not burden the list with 
> a long and boring posting. One can knock one's self out collecting 
> mountains of data and analyzing it statistically, but when the answer
> is obvious, why waste precious time?

Well of course, not wasting time is important, especially for a busy
scientist.  And I appreciate that you don't want to bore the list, 
which is what I, who am less cooth, am doing now.  But here is the 
thing.  If you just want to show that Reich's thought process had 
flaws, you don't need to do even that one day of work, and you can 
instead spend that day on an outing with a couple of babes.
All you need to do is point out that he made a serious logical
mistake when he concluded that orgone is not negative electricity from 
the fact that his negatively charged electroscope discharged faster 
inside the accumulator.  Five minutes of work.

But you are not doing this.  You are bringing in, even though you 
pretend you aren't, the corrected and improved version of Reich's 
research that is available to you courtesy of the Correas.
So you are, after all, not just looking for holes in 
Reich's own arguments that prevent his arguments from holding water 
and that spare us the need of having to be bothered with the orgone, 
but you are -- at least you look like you are, sort of -- trying to 
examine the question of the "orgone" as it is posed by people who 
have already corrected the obvious mistakes in Reich's arguments, 
because these people, instead of getting stuck on his logical mistakes, 
put to themselves the challenge of taking him seriously, fleshing out 
the actual ideas he was trying to get at, and trying to see, through 
a lot of hard and detailed work, if there was a physical reality 
behind these ideas.

Now it is true that it would be a bit of a letdown, and would make you
look a bit silly, if a serious Reichian scientist like yourself 
suddenly came out with the revelation that you had just remembered,
after all these years, that negative electricity slowed down the 
discharge of negatively charged electroscopes, and so Reich's thinking 
didn't hold water.  It will look much more decorous and profound and 
splashy if you unnoticeably assimilate to Reich's work this one little
correction made by the Correas, and then pin on your chest the medal of
First Scientist to Ever Explain the Electroscopic Anomaly by Ion 
Blockage Inside ORACs.

No doubt you will get mighty applause from the likes of Coister, 
Rotwell, Queenly and my Uncle George, so if you keep to such
audiences, as you probably will, you will be a proper hero.  But 
between you and me, you are hardly the First Scientist to Ever Explain
the Electroscopic Anomaly by Ion Blockage Inside ORACs.  

The Correas, in fact, bring up this explanation, and deal with its pros
and cons at great length, in their monograph AS2-06.  For example, on
page 55 they say:

  "A major objection against this work and the body of work it 
  contributes to, is that the effect of the ORACs upon the electrocopes
  could be explained by a combination of two simple factors: the
  occurrence of a mechanical blockage at the metal layers that impedes
  the access of negative and positive ions to the inner chamber of the
  ORACs, and the well known (but unexplained) effect regarding the 
  tendency of charge trapped in a conductor to reside on the side of 
  the conductor that is electrically nearest to the earth.  [...]
  This dual objection would then argue that the reason why the 
  electroscope leaf does not fall inside the ORAC is that the inner
  chamber is insulated both electrically and mechanically from outside
  variations in charge concentration, with the added benefit that the 
  metallic layers will also equalize all electric differences in the
  proximal space surrounding the inner cavity."
  
And through that monograph they describe various experimental results
that in fact can _not_ be explained to satisfaction by this insulation
argument -- for example, the fact that the discharge rates inside ORACs
show substantial diurnal variations, and also variations that correlate
with atmospheric conditions outside.

And in fact, as I said before, your copious 530 ion readings done inside 
the boxes look pretty flat, there is not much variation. So if you think
that these data are sufficient and you need not waste any precious time
investigating this further, then you have just confirmed that the ion
levels inside the boxes do not correlate with diurnal or atmoshperic
conditions, and so the theory of electroscopic discharge which
you are trying to tout -- that electroscopic discharge and its 
variations can all be explained by ion levels -- is grossly inadequate.
And it is inadequate for many reasons.  For instance, the Correas 
demonstrate, in monograph AS2-08, that certain frequencies of 
non-ionizing electromagnetic radiation can cause arrest of 
electroscopic discharge.  How can this effect be accounted for by 
the ion-level theory of electroscopic discharge and discharge arrest?

And you, as a scientist, should admit that just observing that ORACs 
and other boxes block ion fluxes is not enough to conclude that this 
blockage can in fact account for the differences in discharge between
electroscopes placed inside and outside ORACs.  What you'd have to do
is provide computational proof that the delta between the
ion levels inside and outside the ORACs computationally accounts
for the delta between the speeds of discharge of two identical and 
identically charged electroscopes, one outside the ORAC and the other 
inside -- in other words, that the observed delta between the ion 
levels is _sufficient_ to cause the difference in discharge speeds.
To do this, you'd have to use a methodology something like what the
Correas develop in their monographs AS2-01 and AS2-02, where they 
compare the total energy of the charges imparted to the electroscope 
leaves in the process of charging, with the energy needed to sustain 
the deflection over a period of time.  But if you do this, you are 
likely to find what they have found -- that electroscopic arrest, 
which means sustaining the deflection of the leaves against the force 
of gravity, cannot be accounted for by the mere absence of ions.  
Again, assuming you are applying their methodology of computing these
energies on a micro level -- and I don't know of any other methodology 
that would serve to settle the question of whether or not the ion-level
difference is a sufficient explanation -- you will find that the energy
that is required to maintain the deflection over time against the 
force of gravity has to be actively replenished, and it is the
possibility of this replenishment or its lack that, under most 
atmoshperic conditions, more than anything else accounts for the speed
with which the electroscope will discharge.

Now you will say that none of this was shown by Reich himself, and so
it is not part of your argument against Reich.  But are you doing 
science, or doing a gig on the Larry King show?

>    But perhaps you are still not satisfied. Let's go deeper still.
> On page 140 of the Cancer Biopathy, Dr. Reich presents his second 
> premise with regard to electroscopic discharge rate - its diurnal 
> variation. He present graphs of his observations, in Fig. 16 
> (P.138-39) showing this intraday variation for a total of 11 days,
> under various weather conditions.
> I do not doubt that Dr. Reich was conscientious and reported the 
> values that he actually observed. Dr. Reich observes " The 
> electroscope discharges more rapidly in the early morning and 
> late evening than at noon. Just the opposite would be expected 
> if the laws of "air electricity" were to be followed.
>     But on this count I must totally disagree with Dr. Reich. 
> After researching this further, I have found that this is precisely 
> the pattern one would expect from "air electricity". Levels of 
> atmospheric ions, and diurnal changes in the Earth's vertical 
> potential gradient have been thoroughly studied over the last 
> 100 years, and there are lots of textbook descriptions of these 
> phenomenon.  In general, it is most often reported that the vertical 
> potential gradient, and the atmospheric ions associated
> with it, vary during fair weather with a peak in the early morning 
> and late evening, and the lowest levels being in the middle of 
> the day. This is why I cited Garwell's online paper. It appears 
> to show this effect.

I sure hope that you have more convincing references than Garwell.
No offence meant to Garwell, who seems to be a fine chap, but his
data from 3 days don't look to me like very convincing scientific
proof of what you are claiming.  Maybe textbooks would be better.
So exactly in which texbooks can I find proof that the 
ion levels in the atmosphere -- and I assume you mean the levels of ions
of both polarities -- are the lowest when the sun is at the zenith? 
And why - what is the explanation?

>     I believe you have mis-read Garwell's paper. You are reading his 
> graphs upside down. He states that "The highest points on the 
> waveforms being zero volts ie the current is zero." But he also 
> states that " current is generated by the positive or negative ions". 
> Thus, when you read zero volts on his graphs, you are reading the 
> lowest ion levels, not the highest. Thus stems your confusion. 

Sorry, mate, it doesn't stem thusly, because there was no confusion.
I realize that his negative data are upside down and his positive data
are right side up, as you could have gathered from the fact that
I said I did see the diurnal variation you mentioned.  What I don't
see is any evidence, worthy of quoting as scientific, that cloud cover
correlates with high levels of ions.  Yes, on day 1 I see a dip in
the negative-ion level (as I said before) that corresponds to a dip in
light and in temperature.  But as far as I can see, that's all the
"correlation" there is.  In fact for positive ions, there seems to
be a corresponding anti-correlation on the first day -- there is a peak 
in both light and temperature with a corresponding dip in the level of
positive ions (for which the graph is now right side up).  And in fact
a similar anti-correlation occurs for positive ions on the 3rd day.
Or do you claim that only negative-ion highs correlate with cloudy
weather?  In that case, your argument, this time even if one only 
considers Reich's own literal claims about atmospheric variations in 
electroscopic discharge rates, would become somewhat -- how to put it?
Lacking.  


Cheers,

Patrick


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 10 01:43:58 2002
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Patrick -

At 1:02 AM -0700 6/10/02, Patrick Dowland wrote:
>And through that monograph they describe various experimental results
>that in fact can _not_ be explained to satisfaction by this insulation
>argument -- for example, the fact that the discharge rates inside ORACs
>show substantial diurnal variations, and also variations that correlate
>with atmospheric conditions outside.

This is the thing that's sitting in the back of my mind as I read the pros and cons in this thread. The self charging of capacitors TT Brown measured followed this sort of pattern. He used a constant temperature oven and other enclosures that should have kept thermal noise and wandering ions from the air supply out of the experiment, but the diurnal variations were still there. 

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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Bill,
       Did you try looking at the cloudbase first "straight on", then
turning your head while keeping your eyes on the cloud and lastly turning
your head while keeping your eyes looking straight ahead. If so, did the
perceived feeling disappear or move unexpectedly. What I am driving at is
this: does the effect get focussed by your eyes or is it directly perceived
by your retina?
The weather in Jersey, C.I. is too good at the moment to try this myself (no
thunderstorms)...

Nick Palmer

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At 1:02 AM -0700 6/10/02, Patrick Dowland wrote:

And through that monograph they [the Correas] describe
various experimental results that in fact can _not_ be
explained to satisfaction by this insulation argument --
for example, the fact that the discharge rates inside ORACs
show substantial diurnal variations, and also variations
that correlate with atmospheric conditions outside.

Rick Monteverde wrote:

This is the thing that's sitting in the back of my mind
as I read the pros and cons in this thread. The self
charging of capacitors TT Brown measured followed this
sort of pattern. He used a constant temperature oven and
other enclosures that should have kept thermal noise and
wandering ions from the air supply out of the experiment,
but the diurnal variations were still there.

Hi Rick,

I'm wondering if any of the following has something
to do with the ORAC.

Jack Smith

At 2:04 PM 4/26/99, JNaudin509 aol.com wrote:

Today, I have conducted an important test about my
EHD-Engine v1.0 (see below):

IMPORTANT EXPERIMENT (04-26-99) ( Ion wind effect testing )

The EHD-Engine v1.0 has been completly enclosed (the ogival
electrode AND the annular ring) with several layers of
plastic sheets, so this removes all ion wind effect

Horace Heffner wrote:

The high field gradient about the ring may have penetrated
the plastic with microscopic pinholes.  In addition, the
resistance of the thin plastic covering layers is non-zero.
Also, if the DC contains ripple, the plastic coating has
a capacitive linkage to the ambient air.

A much better test is to enclose the device in a conductive
container, say a balsa wood structure covered with aluminum
foil, with power fed through insulators in the skin of
the structure, maybe using neon sign HV wire.

John Berry wrote:

One way or another you have to simulate it as if it were
running in the depths of space, so even if it is not
ion wind it could still be due to a force (maybe even
gravitational) placed on the environment including vacuum
chamber walls, so what you need to do is have a large
enclosure which is attached to the device, The enclosure
must be light yet large enough, basically the thrust on the
device must be greater than that placed on the surrounding
objects in the environment.  Anyway it would be nice to
see a shot of the device held still with smoke to see what
the air is doing.

Horace Heffner wrote:

An insulated enclosure is not sufficient.  At minimum, a
conductive enclosure is required, IMHO.  Otherwise, there
are electrostatic forces with objects in the environment.

Thinking about this further, a control device which
replaces the thrust device, probably a simple capacitor,
is also essential, to examine forces on the supply and
other parts of the test apparatus.

Jean-Louis Naudin wrote:

Yes of course, I fully agree with you....This is the
Trouton-Noble experiment and also the Cornille's
Electrostatic pendulum experiment that I have
already performed successfuly with the Prof. Cornille
himself...This has also been reproduced successfuly by
independant labs...

I suggest you to see at: http://www.aes.com.freeservers.com
or at : http://members.aol.com/overunity/html/elgmnu.htm

All the details and the theory are fully explained in
our book (512 pages) by Alexandre Szames : "L'effet
Biefeld-Brown" - (ASZ editions ISBN 2-913377-00-9 -
EAN 9782913377004)

http://www.aes.com.freeservers.com/html/bbbook.htm

Horace Heffner wrote:

Do you therefore intend to do these two things, a metal
enclosure plus performing a separate control experiment
with replacement of only the thrust producing device?
The experiment appears to be meaningless without these
things, at a minimum.

...

The main problem is not showing that the thrust exists
without gas molecules, but rather that the thrust exists
when there is no electrostatic force with the surroundings.

John Winterflood  wrote:

One thing is certain in my mind - yet another inefficient
electric motor design (ion wind) is not of any real
interest, but a force with no apparent equal and opposite
reaction is of "earth shattering" interest.  If one does
not do everything they can do to rule out the obvious
prosaic explanation, then they cannot expect any interest
from the scientific community.

Rick Monteverde wrote:

Ok, how about this test: mount the thruster in one side
of a large enclosed "tent" made of plastic, garden stakes
or whatever for poles. A box 1 meter or so on each side
should do. The thruster is mounted inside on one side not
too far from a vertical face, counterbalanced with a dead
weight on the other side. The whole setup is hung from a
center point on the top of the box, free to spin a few revs
(before the wires twist up too much).

If it spins with HVDC...?

I can't imagine why there should be a continuous flow
of ions outside the box under the above circumstances,
or anything like a continuous push from electrostatic
forces - whether charge is induced or is pre-existing on
outside air and walls in the room.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 10 07:55:15 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC Department of coincidences
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Jeff wrote:

>Boy--talk about grasping at straws for ammunition!  Yes, DoE's Huizenga 
>went to Calvin College and I think graduated before I was born.  The 
>Huizenga behind the Blockbuster Video success also went to Calvin College.

I asked John "DoE" Huizenga if he is related to Wayne "Blockbuster" 
Huizenga. He said alas no, he wishes he were, he never met the man. The 
name is Dutch, probably derived from a placename, Huizinge, a town near 
near Middelstum.

Although "Huizenga" is uncommon in the U.S., it is not an astounding 
coincidence that two people of that name at a similar age graduated from a 
small U.S. college. However, talking about names, here is a highly unlikely 
coincidence. My name, Rothwell, is derived from a town in England, from the 
Middle English "red" + "well." It is uncommon in the U.S., but based on a 
Google search it may be a more common in Ireland. My daughter is studying 
in Dublin. A few weeks ago she met a fellow named Rothwell, whose family 
members include George, David and Stanley, which happen to be the names of 
my father, brother and my middle name.

Isaac Asimov used to say he was "the Isaac Asimov, the only one the 
universe who ever lived or ever will." That would be difficult to prove, 
kind of like the old saying that "no two snowflakes are alike." I don't 
know whether that is true or not, or whether it could be proved. I suppose 
one would have to estimate how many water molecules there are in a 
snowflake, how many shapes they might form, and how many snowflakes have 
fallen. That saying, by the way, probably originated in the remarkable work 
of Wilson "Snowflake" Bentley (1865-1931). (They really did call him that.) 
But I digress . . .

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 10 08:53:09 2002
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Subject: Bentley: snowflakes probably not alike
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It turns out the old saw "no two snowflakes are alike" did not originate 
with Wilson Bentley himself, although this popular notion must have been 
originated with his research. He was too careful to make such a blanket 
assertion. He said, ". . . the investigator will, in all probability, never 
find another exactly like it." Popular Mechanics Magazine, Vol. 37, 
http://www.snowflakebentley.com/popmech.htm

He knew a lot about the structure of water and crystallography, and the 
mechanics of snowflake formation in air. See, for example:

http://www.snowflakebentley.com/snow.htm

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 10 09:11:35 2002
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Subject: Bentley yet another scientist ahead of his time
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Here is another example to add to the long list of researchers who were 
ignored or denigrated for decades for being too right too soon. See:

http://www.snowflakebentley.com/sfman.htm

Quotes:

A 1902 paper, one of the most extraordinary and detailed of his writings, 
exploded with ideas and hypotheses. . . .

What did Bentley discover about rain? What didn't he! He found that the 
largest raindrops are about one-quarter of an inch in diameter (about 6 
mm). He suggested that in some cases the size was determined by the size of 
snowflakes high within the cloud -- the flakes had melted before they got 
to the ground. Bentley went on to tell how he had found different sizes of 
raindrops in different types of storms. . . . We know today that most of 
what Bentley suggested is indeed true, although some of his ideas are still 
being debated. Most astonishing of all is that he recognized a dual origin 
of rain, an idea that has been firmly established only in the past 20 or 30 
years. [written in 1970] . . .


. . . The price that Bentley had to pay in loneliness is the price that all 
must pay whose inner vision allows them to see what others can never see.

We can understand the reaction of Bentley's friends and neighbors to his 
work, but it is not so easy to understand the reaction of the world of 
science. This was silence, utter and complete. During the ten years that 
Bentley's creative efforts were at their maximum not one article by others 
about his work appeared in the Monthly Weather Review. None of the many 
brilliant ideas suggested by Bentley in his articles was ever followed up 
by other meteorologists. His work wasn't even mentioned! Even criticism of 
his efforts would have been better than no comment at all. One can only 
conjecture as to the reasons for this silence from the world of 
meteorology. Was it because of an intellectual arrogance that blinded the 
PhD's of the world of science from realizing that a "simple farmer" could 
also discover the truths of nature? Or was it because Bentley revealed his 
emotions in his writings, a heresy in the objective world of science 
writing. No doubt both contain an element of truth, but probably the main 
reason was that Bentley and his ideas were far ahead of his time. No 
scientists in America in the first 10 years of this century understood 
anything about the sizes of raindrops, or how ice crystals formed in 
storms, or whether lightning had anything to do with it. Bentley travelled 
alone into a new research frontier. . . .

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Subject: Re: Bentley: snowflakes probably not alike
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--- Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:
> It turns out the old saw "no two snowflakes are alike" did not
> originate 
> with Wilson Bentley himself, although this popular notion must have
> been 
> originated with his research. He was too careful to make such a blanket
> 


Jed:

I know it sounds romantic to think that a scientist originated a popular
ketch phrase.  But...  The snowflake thing has been with us for a very
long time.  Actually finds it's roots are found in the same place as the
"lightning never strikes the same place twice"  in Druid mythologies that
pre date Jesus. 





=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
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Charles Ford wrote:

> > It turns out the old saw "no two snowflakes are alike" did not
> > originate
> > with Wilson Bentley himself . . .
. . .
>I know it sounds romantic to think that a scientist originated a popular
>ketch phrase.  But...  The snowflake thing has been with us for a very
>long time.  Actually finds it's roots are found in the same place as the
>"lightning never strikes the same place twice"  in Druid mythologies that
>pre date Jesus.

Really? Do you have any sources for this? Before the invention of the lens 
and microscope, I doubt that people realized that snowflakes have extensive 
microscopic structure. The structure visible to the naked eye is not that 
varied. Before modern atomic theory, people had various notions of the 
smallest possible particle ("atomes" -- in Shakespeare), which set the 
limit of the maximum variety of snowflake types. I think this hypothetical 
particle was many orders of magnitude larger than an actual atom or 
molecule. Given the particle size and the size of a snowflake, scientists 
circa 1600 could have estimated the maximum number of variations. They were 
no slouches at geometry or mathematics!

The first estimates of Avogadro's number were made around 1865. Avogadro's 
hypothesis was "almost completely neglected" from the time he published in 
1811 until 1860, four years after his death. I think he was attacked mainly 
because he showed that Dalton was wrong. Does this sound familiar?

Bentley was the first to photograph a snowflake, and he was decades ahead 
of others explaining the structure and dynamics of flake formation and 
precipitation. I doubt that scientists before 1900 realized flakes were 
complex. They may have thought of them as simple, uniform and without 
structure, the way Richard Blue used to characterize palladium, and the way 
most people think of liquid water, even now.

- Jed

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On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Dean T. Miller wrote:

> I'm much more in favor of the UV idea than IR.  Bill mentioned his
> windshield and side windows block IR, but I suspect that's not the
> case.  IR (heat) seems to go through most glass just fine.

Huh?  Then why do thermographic cameras have extremely expensive lenses
made of germanium?   I thought that glass was opaque to longwave IR.

On the other hand, a sheet of glass is a 70F object.  If my eyes are
sensitive to the missing blackbody radiation of distant -50F objects (the
hail cloud), then holding up a radiating plate which is glowing with +70F
infrared will screw up the effect, even though it doesn't actually block
my view.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 10 14:23:12 2002
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From: "Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra" <dskjdk myexcel.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <B92848B5.2F61%editor infinite-energy.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020610102317.0316e910@mail.DIRECTVInternet.com>
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC Department of coincidences
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 17:14:31 -0400
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Jed,

> >Boy--talk about grasping at straws for ammunition!  Yes, DoE's Huizenga
> >went to Calvin College and I think graduated before I was born.  The
> >Huizenga behind the Blockbuster Video success also went to Calvin
College.
>
> I asked John "DoE" Huizenga if he is related to Wayne "Blockbuster"
> Huizenga. He said alas no, he wishes he were, he never met the man. The
> name is Dutch, probably derived from a placename, Huizinge, a town near
> near Middelstum.
>
> Although "Huizenga" is uncommon in the U.S., it is not an astounding
> coincidence that two people of that name at a similar age graduated from a
> small U.S. college.

"Huizenga" is a very common name in Grand Rapids because this is one of
several places in the US where a huge number of Dutch immigrants settled.
Calvin College is affiliated with the Christian Reformed Church, which was
almost entirely Dutch at the time of the college's founding.  So it seems
not at all coincidental around here that two guys named Huizenga should have
gone to the same school, especially given their ages.

Jeff


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 10 14:48:45 2002
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly 
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Mr. Patrick Dowland,

    I note with some curiousity that you joined this list on July 28th,
2001, four days after Eugene Mallove announced the launch of the
Aetherometry website. It seems your only purpose on this list has been to
start threads about the Correa's work, to announce the launch of new
articles on their site, and to defend their positions in any discussion.  I
am told that you are doing the same thing on J. Naudin's list.  Are you Mr.
and Mrs. Correa's representative on this list?

You also have a propensity to misspell peoples names in your postings.
Since it seems deliberate, is that just to be insulting, or is it a tactic
to prevent people from tracking your posts by name citations?

Please let me know.

Doug







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Oh, of course!  They have throngs of these 'scientests' to carry out the
actual work.  It's Curious George who is, shall we say, the head lemming,
leading the rest of the pack (or at least making a feeble attempt at making
it seem that way.)

www.bushorchimp.com

:)


> Its a little accusitory.  e/g "Bush" performed nuke test?
>
> I honestly thought they had scientests that did that.  :-)


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 10 16:40:18 2002
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Another Orgone experiment (human IR sense?)
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On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Nick Palmer wrote:

> Bill,
>        Did you try looking at the cloudbase first "straight on", then
> turning your head while keeping your eyes on the cloud and lastly turning
> your head while keeping your eyes looking straight ahead. If so, did the
> perceived feeling disappear or move unexpectedly. What I am driving at is
> this: does the effect get focussed by your eyes or is it directly perceived
> by your retina?

I tried to do this while driving, but couldn't tell either way.  The
region of the effect seemed to be big and fuzzy.   I couldn't tell if this
was because the cloud itself was big and fuzzy, or because my eyes were
acting like a non-imaging photocell (which would have one big, fuzzy lobe
of sensitivity aimed outwards.)

Wouldn't it be strange if human retinas could see longwave IR, yet human
brains were blind to it?  Sort of like the "hysterical blindness" effect,
where the victim can't see at all, but if you bring a lit cigarette near
their hand (for example), they get upset but don't know why.  I cannot
"see" the cold thunderstorm, but I get a weird feeling when I look at it.
Speculation:  maybe it's because I grew up in a society which never talks
about this effect, and children learn to ignore it and eventually become
totally blind to it.  I.e if I'd heard about it since age two, I'd be
able to see IR (Orgone) directly?


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 10 16:54:10 2002
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From: Patrick Dowland <patrick_dowland yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly 
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Marett wrote:

> I note with some curiousity that you joined this list on July 28th,
> 2001, four days after Eugene Mallove announced the launch of the
> Aetherometry website. It seems your only purpose on this list has been to
> start threads about the Correa's work, to announce the launch of new
> articles on their site, and to defend their positions in any discussion. 
> I am told that you are doing the same thing on J. Naudin's list.  
> Are you Mr. and Mrs. Correa's representative on this list?

This is quite a change of topic, which my grandpa, who was big on fighting,
always used to teach me was a mighty weak strategy (he was big on teaching,
too).  But I'll go with the flow, why not?  And I am flattered to 
know you've been checking me out and asking around about me.

I did get on this list, and the Naudin list, hoping to find good 
discussions about the work of the Correas, which a friend pointed me to
right after it first came out.  I have always been sort of interested
in what Reich had to say, but -- no offense meant -- the stuff that I read
from other people who say they are doing orgonomic research makes me
a bit queezy.  The Correa work is the first thing I ever saw having to do
with Reich that is real science, it feels like a breath of fresh air.
So seeing that this list and Naudin's list are supposed to be about
alternative science, I would have expected people to have some serious
discussions of this work.  I have not yet seen any of that, but I keep
hoping.  Although with all these other guys around (I won't write their
names since I would get them wrong again) going at the Correas like
a bunch of blind apes driving a bulldozer, I can see why anybody who had
any real thought in his brain about the Correa work would tend to keep it
to himself.  So you might well say that yes, the bottom line is that I 
wind up being, as you put it, their representative on this list, since
except for Dr Mallone nobody else seems to be into what they are doing.  

> You also have a propensity to misspell peoples names in your postings.
> Since it seems deliberate, is that just to be insulting, or is it a
> tactic to prevent people from tracking your posts by name citations?

Do I misspell people's names?  I am mighty sorry, no offence meant.  My
wife always chides me for misremembering people's names. I'll start
writing them down and making sure I get them right, but I am sort of lazy.
Now what you say about tracking is interesting.  Why would I want to not
have my posts tracked?  If I have something to say about someone, wouldn't
it make sense to want my post to get tracked, so that everybody in the
world could find out what old Patrick had to say about so-and-so?

So is this it, or are you going to go back to the original topic?


Cheers,

Patrick


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 10 16:57:06 2002
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Another Orgone experiment (human IR sense?)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:09:10 -0400
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Hi Bill.

I've been following this thread on and off, and I'm
wondering is you may just be experiencing the effects
of a stream of ions from the location of the storm striking
your eyes.

Such a stream would be blocked by a glass windshield, and
I know from experimenting with high voltage power supplies
that the "cool breeze" from a generator is VERY noticable.

That said, if you feel a radiated EM wave is responsible,
why not try staring at a large block of ice or dry ice and
see what happens?

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com]
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 7:37 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Another Orgone experiment (human IR sense?)


On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Nick Palmer wrote:

> Bill,
>        Did you try looking at the cloudbase first "straight on", then
> turning your head while keeping your eyes on the cloud and lastly turning
> your head while keeping your eyes looking straight ahead. If so, did the
> perceived feeling disappear or move unexpectedly. What I am driving at is
> this: does the effect get focussed by your eyes or is it directly
perceived
> by your retina?

I tried to do this while driving, but couldn't tell either way.  The
region of the effect seemed to be big and fuzzy.   I couldn't tell if this
was because the cloud itself was big and fuzzy, or because my eyes were
acting like a non-imaging photocell (which would have one big, fuzzy lobe
of sensitivity aimed outwards.)

Wouldn't it be strange if human retinas could see longwave IR, yet human
brains were blind to it?  Sort of like the "hysterical blindness" effect,
where the victim can't see at all, but if you bring a lit cigarette near
their hand (for example), they get upset but don't know why.  I cannot
"see" the cold thunderstorm, but I get a weird feeling when I look at it.
Speculation:  maybe it's because I grew up in a society which never talks
about this effect, and children learn to ignore it and eventually become
totally blind to it.  I.e if I'd heard about it since age two, I'd be
able to see IR (Orgone) directly?


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 10 17:09:13 2002
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Nuclear testing in Nevada
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:19:28 -0400
Message-ID: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMOEPODDAA.knagel gis.net>
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Hi.

Testing is first and foremost a political decision,
as such the president should be tightly in the loop.
Of course, this is George Bush we're talking about,
so all bets are off as to whether he's aware of
whats going on.... (grin).

K.



-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Hopkins [mailto:thebishop usadatanet.net]
Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 6:59 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Nuclear testing in Nevada



Oh, of course!  They have throngs of these 'scientests' to carry out the
actual work.  It's Curious George who is, shall we say, the head lemming,
leading the rest of the pack (or at least making a feeble attempt at making
it seem that way.)

www.bushorchimp.com

:)


> Its a little accusitory.  e/g "Bush" performed nuke test?
>
> I honestly thought they had scientests that did that.  :-)



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 10 17:25:18 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Reich's electroscopic anomaly 
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 20:36:48 -0400
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Hi All.

Fatrick Cowland writes:
>This is quite a change of topic, which my grandpa, who was big on fighting,
>always used to teach me was a mighty weak strategy

Why am I not surprised? (grin).

>So is this it, or are you going to go back to the original topic?

Excellent idea. The original topic was experimental evidence
of Orgone. Just to recap, I suggested to Gene that he post the
best basic experiment for orgone which we could develop and
test here on Vortex. He did so, which I do appreciate. We began
to discuss some of the experimental difficulties and artifacts
which would have to be overcome to make a convincing experiment.
At that point, promotional efforts began to seriously damage the
tone and content of the discussion. I realize how important such
promotion is to fund raising, but many of us on vortex are really
interested in whether there is some reality to the claimed effects.

Doug Marett has kindly supplied us with some substantial papers
on his experimental research into orgone. Have you done experimental
research that contradicts his findings? Please post.

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 10 18:53:00 2002
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From: "Doug Marett" <doug.marett sympatico.ca>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Agent Dowland wrote,

>Do I misspell people's names?  I am mighty sorry, no offence meant.  My
>wife always chides me for misremembering people's names. I'll start
>writing them down and making sure I get them right, but I am sort of =
lazy.
>Now what you say about tracking is interesting.  Why would I want to =
not
>have my posts tracked?  If I have something to say about someone, =
wouldn't
>it make sense to want my post to get tracked, so that everybody in the
>world could find out what old Patrick had to say about so-and-so?

That was priceless! Anyway, I have been talking about Reich, and you are =
trying to goad me into talking about the Correas, and like a bad =
vacation, that's a place I don't want to go. By the way, did I say your =
Oscar is in the mail? Good.

Maybe you, your grandpa and uncle George can pool your resources and =
pull off an experiment!

Doug


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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Agent Dowland wrote,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt;Do I misspell people's names?&nbsp; =
I am mighty=20
sorry, no offence meant.&nbsp; My<BR>&gt;wife always chides me for=20
misremembering people's names. I'll start<BR>&gt;writing them down and =
making=20
sure I get them right, but I am sort of lazy.<BR>&gt;Now what you say =
about=20
tracking is interesting.&nbsp; Why would I want to not<BR>&gt;have my =
posts=20
tracked?&nbsp; If I have something to say about someone, =
wouldn't<BR>&gt;it make=20
sense to want my post to get tracked, so that everybody in =
the<BR>&gt;world=20
could find out what old Patrick had to say about =
so-and-so?<BR></FONT><BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>That was priceless! Anyway, I have been talking =
about Reich,=20
and you are trying to goad me into talking about the Correas, and like a =
bad=20
vacation, that's a place I don't want to go. By the way, did I say your =
Oscar is=20
in the mail? Good.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Maybe you, your&nbsp;grandpa and uncle =
George can=20
pool your resources and pull off an experiment!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Doug</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C210C8.856FDE80--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 10 19:31:24 2002
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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:32:16 -0700
Subject: Dirac's Equation and the Sea of Negative Energy
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Message-ID: <B92AD0C1.2FDB%editor infinite-energy.com>
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All,

Those interested in another excellent view of substantive aether physics (a=
s
opposed to  Einstein's late in life use of the term "aether" in connection
with his fictitious space-time topology) should get a copy of Infinite
Energy, Issue #43.  Don Hotson's article garnered praise from our brilliant
and eloquent colleague Dr. Tom Phipps.  Phipps'  letter will be printed in
full in a future issue, but I quote it in part below, as well as the
reference to a friend's conclusion that #43 is the best Infinite Energy yet=
.

Hotson's article is complementary to the Correa work (which is given a
polite nod up front by Hotson -- ditto nods to  Fleischmann and Pons and W.
Reich). Part II of Hotson's article  is even more provocative than the
first. It'll appear in Issue #44 of Infinite Energy, later this summer.

Best wishes,

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
Director, New Energy Research Laboratory
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816
   editor infinite-energy.com
   www.infinite-energy.com
Ph: 603-228-4516
Fx: 603-224-5975


------ Forwarded Message
From: Tom Phipps <tephipps insightbb.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2002 16:20:39 -0500
To: editor infinite-energy.com
Cc: staff infinite-energy.com, "Don L. Hotson" <donhotson@yahoo.com>
Subject: Letter to Editor

Dear Gene,

A friend tells me he considers Issue #43 of IE to be the best yet.  I can't
disagree.
I am attaching a WORD file intended as a submission of a Letter to the
Editor....

Tom Phipps

*****

Letter to the Editor from Tom Phipps, in part:

Letter to the Editor, Infinite Energy, 4 June, 2002

Congratulations on a particularly fine issue, No. 43, on the =B3death of
entropy.=B2  I was specially impressed by Part I of D. L. Hotson=B9s paper on
=B3Dirac=B9s equation and the sea of negative energy.=B2  He is surely right to
call attention to the likelihood that the physics of the past century went
wrong in rejecting Dirac=B9s inspiration and thereby trifling with Ockham=B9s
rule....=20

Tom Phipps



--B_3106593137_743971
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--B_3106593137_743971--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 10 19:33:20 2002
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Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 19:30:44 -0700
Message-ID: <3D0560C8.C16E081E ihug.co.nz>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:30:33 +1200
From: John Berry <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly
References: <20020610080238.25728.qmail web20906.mail.yahoo.com> <v04210100b92a15a81a93@[192.168.123.2]> <3D0493C1.419A6DB7@centurytel.net>
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> An insulated enclosure is not sufficient.  At minimum, a
> conductive enclosure is required, IMHO.  Otherwise, there
> are electrostatic forces with objects in the environment.
>
> Thinking about this further, a control device which
> replaces the thrust device, probably a simple capacitor,
> is also essential, to examine forces on the supply and
> other parts of the test apparatus.

One design of Browns best suited to be in a metal enclosure is in one of
his patents.
He has three parallel electrodes with wedge shaped dielectrics between
the plates, the middle electrode is charged with the top and bottom
electrodes grounded, the top and bottom electrodes could be extended to
form a metal box.
The box is grounded, no electric fields leave so any effect on the
environment outside the box is by some gravitational like force field.
This is the only ultimate way to test short of going into deep space in
my opinion.

If this simple design works it is absolute proof positive that something
useful is happening.


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 10 20:55:27 2002
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From: "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller midiowa.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly 
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:54:22 -0500
Organization: Miller and Associates
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On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:52:40 -0700 (PDT), Patrick Dowland
<patrick_dowland yahoo.com> wrote:

>So you might well say that yes, the bottom line is that I 
>wind up being, as you put it, their representative on this list, since
>except for Dr Mallone nobody else seems to be into what they are doing.  
>
>Do I misspell people's names?  I am mighty sorry, no offence meant.  My
>wife always chides me for misremembering people's names. I'll start
>writing them down and making sure I get them right,

You might start with Dr. Mallove's name (see above).   :)

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 10 21:08:32 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Thunderstorm emissions
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:07:15 +1000
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <dqtagu83pnepm0h9bf4nr78tuks7fjil00 4ax.com>
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In reply to  William Beaty's message of Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:42:52 -0700:
Hi Bill,
[snip]
>On the other hand, a sheet of glass is a 70F object.  If my eyes are
>sensitive to the missing blackbody radiation of distant -50F objects (the
>hail cloud), then holding up a radiating plate which is glowing with +70F
>infrared will screw up the effect, even though it doesn't actually block
>my view.
[snip]
What happens when you look into your deep freeze?


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 10 21:34:59 2002
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Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:32:23 -0700
From: "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller midiowa.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Thunderstorm emissions
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 23:33:39 -0500
Organization: Miller and Associates
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On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:42:52 -0700 (PDT), William Beaty
<billb ESKIMO.COM> wrote:

>On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Dean T. Miller wrote:
>
>> I'm much more in favor of the UV idea than IR.  Bill mentioned his
>> windshield and side windows block IR, but I suspect that's not the
>> case.  IR (heat) seems to go through most glass just fine.
>
>Huh?  Then why do thermographic cameras have extremely expensive lenses
>made of germanium?   I thought that glass was opaque to longwave IR.

We're probably talking about two different things.  Really longwave IR
probably needs waveguides.   :)   What wavelengths or frequencies do
you suspect you're sensing?

Some types of glass can be compounded to block most IR, and other
glasses will pass most of the IR band.  Normal window glass passes a
lot of the IR band.

>On the other hand, a sheet of glass is a 70F object.  If my eyes are
>sensitive to the missing blackbody radiation of distant -50F objects (the
>hail cloud), then holding up a radiating plate which is glowing with +70F
>infrared will screw up the effect, even though it doesn't actually block
>my view.

I would think that you'd get the same sensation when looking into a
clear night sky, wouldn't you?  The effective temperature is quite a
bit below freezing (for almost all compounds, being close to absolute
zero).

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 10 21:41:11 2002
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 00:39:47 EDT
Subject: UC Berkeley Researcher on Gravity Shielding
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http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00032353-36AB-1CDC-B4A8809EC588EEDF&
catID=2

http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0204012

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Gotta add my two cents:

as a corneal transplant recipient,
 I am much more sensitive now to a wider spectrum,
 as portions of my eyeball were removed due to scar tissue.

Pre-Thunderstorm daylight can make my eye cringe, as the low-pressure
 atmosphere passes more UV. Sunglasses are a 'must' for me.

I know what you are speaking about - I have always enjoyed
 vast relief at looking at the dark clouds, as they feel 'cool'
 to my eye. I tend to believe you are not sensing more in a dark cloud,
 rather you sense less as the remainder of the sky is possibly bright.
On the other hand, I would also bet we sense the voltages present
 in a charged cloud bank - this I have never explored.

I noticed, after a time, that coincident with the buildup of
 afternoon thunderstorms, I can also 'feel' the UV as it cooks my skin,
 consequently I only wear long-sleeve shirts here in the tropics.

On the nature of human perception, I think that a lot of what we
 perceive with our senses is 'snowed' under by predominant perceptions.
We are probably able to sense many things beyond
 what 'ordinary people' imagine, if we only open our brains to the possibilities.

My night vision in my normal eye is quite good,
 but I suspect that many (not all!) folks who claim to be night-blind
 simply never take the time to develop the sense.

Similarly, we should be able to sense many other energies ( - and energy holes)
 if we take the time to train ourselves.
For those tempted to shout "New Age Crapola", just delete this and move on
 - I am not a "New Ager" or whatever they call it these days.

It is only a matter of physiology and energy, and both these fields are
 embarassingly misunderstood by our so-called civilization.
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com]
> Sent: 2002 June 11 Tuesday 02:43
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Thunderstorm emissions
> 
> 
> On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Dean T. Miller wrote:
> 
> > I'm much more in favor of the UV idea than IR.  Bill mentioned his
> > windshield and side windows block IR, but I suspect that's not the
> > case.  IR (heat) seems to go through most glass just fine.
> 
> Huh?  Then why do thermographic cameras have extremely expensive lenses
> made of germanium?   I thought that glass was opaque to longwave IR.
> 
> On the other hand, a sheet of glass is a 70F object.  If my eyes are
> sensitive to the missing blackbody radiation of distant -50F objects (the
> hail cloud), then holding up a radiating plate which is glowing with +70F
> infrared will screw up the effect, even though it doesn't actually block
> my view.
> 
> 
> (((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 10 22:45:09 2002
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On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Dean T. Miller wrote:

> We're probably talking about two different things.  Really longwave IR
> probably needs waveguides.   :)   What wavelengths or frequencies do
> you suspect you're sensing?

I imagine that it's a "hole" in the sky's thermal glow, which otherwise
might be blackbody radiation for 40F or so (or whatever temperature the
non-thunderstorm cloud droplets had.)


> I would think that you'd get the same sensation when looking into a
> clear night sky, wouldn't you?

True, but I only notice the effect when it's relative to the rest of the
environment.  But now that you mention it, I think you're right.  A tree
or building seems different than the night sky.  As with clouds, I always
assumed that this was just psychological (looking at familiar
"comfortable" trees and buildings, as opposed to the slightly frightening
unknown above.)  But rather than comfortable versus frightning, I could
interpret it as warm versus cold.  But it doesn't FEEL cold, not like skin
does.  I think that's why it feels so strange.  The warm objects don't
"look warm", instead they look "associated with comfort."  And the cold
objects instead look "associated with danger."  Whew, if I'm not just
fooling myself, this could be some kind of instinctual thing.  "Seeing"
warm burrows and warm fellow creatures, versus looking into the cool
outside world which is full of threats.  Or maybe it's some kind of
programmed response from infancy (optically detecting warm parents' bodies
versus cold dangerous world.)



I don't feel much of the effect from looking at the clear blue sky in
daytime, or from looking at cirrus clouds (which are ice crystals after
all.)  When I was "feeling" that thunderstorm with my eyes, there was also
some blue sky and cirrus in the opposite direction, and they didn't have
the "feeling."  But if it's truely caused by IR, maybe the glow from such
a thick layer of above-freezing air is enough to mask the missing glow
from cirrus clouds or from outer space?  Or maybe I'm just responding to
thunderstorm orgone.   :)


> The effective temperature is quite a
> bit below freezing (for almost all compounds, being close to absolute
> zero).


I wonder what an IR spectrometer would think of the night sky.  Does it
see space, or does it just see the glow from the miles thick of relatively
warm air?


And about the freezer on my fridge, no dice.  It's visually too small
unless I'm very close, and then I can feel cold air on my face.  Also,
it's only 10F, probably much warmer than the descending ice in the storm.
End result:  there might be a weak effect, but I can talk myself into
feeling it, or talk myself out of it, so I need some blind testing to be
sure.  Compare a -50F white metal plate to a +32F white metal plate.
Ooo!  I forgot the relative effect of the glass plate!  I'll go try it
right now.  Yes, I think it's actually there with the freezer.  When I
look at the freezer and move the glass plate up and down, there's a change
in that "eye feeling", but when I do the same while looking at the kitchen
wall, the change is lots less.  (But the change is there even with the
wall, although considerably smaller.  Maybe the glass is reflecting IR
from my skin?)

Idea for art installation:  three white metal plates mounted on the wall,
but each with a totally different blackbody radiation.  Would they look
the same yet have different emotional impact?  But how to keep ice and
condensation off the cold one?  Ah, use a thin sheet of visibly opaque
IR-transparent plastic with the cold object mounted deep behind it.  Hey,
maybe the plastic, if it's very thin, could even be made warm to the
touch, yet give off thermal radiation of "extreme cold."


I wish I had one of those noncontact IR thermometers you stick in your
ear.  Maybe the readings from that device would show that certain nearby
clouds contain ice and others do not.  I could extend its range; I've
heard that polyethelene makes a good longwave IR lens and is easy to grind
with a sander and polish with a torch. Or instead use a flashlight
reflector with a thermistor at the focus.  Make a bolometer.

  An amazing device the bolometer;
  it's a wonderful type of thermometer,
  which can measure the temp of a polar bear's rump
  at a distance of half a kilometer!


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 01:17:08 2002
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: RE: Another Orgone experiment (human IR sense?)
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Keith -

>That said, if you feel a radiated EM wave is responsible,
>why not try staring at a large block of ice or dry ice and
>see what happens?

You see, this is why guys like us tend not to be married (or even have girlfriends).

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 03:30:28 2002
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Hi all, I have just had to call my ISP because an email message from Patrick
Dowland was jamming my mailbox. They had to delete it before I could
download the rest of my messages. Apparently the attachment was 17Mbytes!!!
This is not welcome - don't we have a 40kb (or thereabouts) limit on message
size?

Nick Palmer

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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly
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At 2:30 PM 6/11/2, John Berry wrote:
>> An insulated enclosure is not sufficient.  At minimum, a
>> conductive enclosure is required, IMHO.  Otherwise, there
>> are electrostatic forces with objects in the environment.
>>
>> Thinking about this further, a control device which
>> replaces the thrust device, probably a simple capacitor,
>> is also essential, to examine forces on the supply and
>> other parts of the test apparatus.
>
>One design of Browns best suited to be in a metal enclosure is in one of
>his patents.
>He has three parallel electrodes with wedge shaped dielectrics between
>the plates, the middle electrode is charged with the top and bottom
>electrodes grounded, the top and bottom electrodes could be extended to
>form a metal box.
>The box is grounded, no electric fields leave so any effect on the
>environment outside the box is by some gravitational like force field.
>This is the only ultimate way to test short of going into deep space in
>my opinion.
>
>If this simple design works it is absolute proof positive that something
>useful is happening.


Proof positive is only obtained if the metal box enlosing the drive is
included in the mass that is placed on or engaged with the thrust measuring
device.  On earth, the thrust measuring device is preferably a torsion
pendulum capable of more than 360 degree rotation.  The principle problem
with testing electromagnetic drives is the elimination of the effect of
near fields from the drive upon the local stationary environment and upon
the thrust measuring device.   Another significant problem is the effect of
drafts on the thrust measuring device, both ambient drafts, and drafts
created by power dissipation in the drive itself.  If the power supply is
not wholly contained within the drive, or at least the drive enclosure
being measured for thrust, then power linkage forces (typically from
cables) and the effects of fields from the local environment become a
problem as well.

Of course the ultimate proof of an electromagnetic space drive is to see
that it works in space.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 06:28:43 2002
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

>This is the thing that's sitting in the back of my mind as I read the pros and cons in this thread. The self charging of capacitors TT Brown measured followed this sort of pattern. He used a constant temperature oven and other enclosures that should have kept thermal noise and wandering ions from the air supply out of the experiment, but the diurnal variations were still there. 
>

I wonder if the charging effect would be more significant with an 
assymmetrical capacitor?

I have been thinking (warning!) about the lifters JLN has been building 
and the recent NASA patent on electric thrusters.  It seems to me that 
these effects could result from the curl of the electric field.  Does 
gravity result from electric field curl?

Here is an interesting online book which prompted this line of thought:

http://www.rexresearch.com/smith/newsci~1.htm#foreword

Terry

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William Beaty wrote:

>I wish I had one of those noncontact IR thermometers you stick in your
>ear.  Maybe the readings from that device would show that certain nearby
>clouds contain ice and others do not.  I could extend its range; I've
>heard that polyethelene makes a good longwave IR lens and is easy to grind
>with a sander and polish with a torch. Or instead use a flashlight
>reflector with a thermistor at the focus.  Make a bolometer.
>
>  An amazing device the bolometer;
>  it's a wonderful type of thermometer,
>  which can measure the temp of a polar bear's rump
>  at a distance of half a kilometer!
>

<g>

I think sodium chloride is also used to make IR lenses; but, don't try 
to use it *during* the thunderstorm.

Terry

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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Bentley: snowflakes probably not alike
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I only have some airlooms folklore 'stories' and poems...  The trouble
with that.  The most solid is an ale 'beer' mug dating back ~600BC
depicting a solstus tree triming scene with 'snowflakes' in many diferent
shapes and sizes.  I am prety sure that it is kept with the Washausen
famely...

I may be wrong about the date.

 
--- Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:
> Charles Ford wrote:
> 
> > > It turns out the old saw "no two snowflakes are alike" did not
> > > originate
> > > with Wilson Bentley himself . . .
> . . .
> >I know it sounds romantic to think that a scientist originated a
> popular
> >ketch phrase.  But...  The snowflake thing has been with us for a very
> >long time.  Actually finds it's roots are found in the same place as
> the
> >"lightning never strikes the same place twice"  in Druid mythologies
> that
> >pre date Jesus.
> 
> Really? Do you have any sources for this? Before the invention of the
> lens 
> and microscope, I doubt that people realized that snowflakes have
> extensive 
> microscopic structure. 

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
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--- Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com> wrote:
> shapes and sizes.  I am prety sure that it is kept with the Washausen
> famely...
> 
> I may be wrong about the date.
> 

I will check on this...  Because now I am not sure.

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
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http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00032353-36AB-1CDC-B4A8809EC588EEDF
&
catID=2

http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0204012

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 07:16:20 2002
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Thunderstorm emissions
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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--- William Beaty <billb eskimo.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Jun 2002, Dean T. Miller wrote:
> 
> > I'm much more in favor of the UV idea than IR.  Bill mentioned his
> > windshield and side windows block IR, but I suspect that's not the
> > case.  IR (heat) seems to go through most glass just fine.
> 
> Huh?  Then why do thermographic cameras have extremely expensive lenses
> made of germanium?   I thought that glass was opaque to longwave IR.
> 

Thus the invention of the "Greenhouse" and the reason for double layered
thermal windows.  Why do you think the glass on an incandescent bulb gets
hot?  Its not because it is efficiently passing the heat. 

> On the other hand, a sheet of glass is a 70F object.  If my eyes are
> sensitive to the missing blackbody radiation of distant -50F objects
> (the hail cloud), then holding up a radiating plate which is glowing 
> with +70F infrared will screw up the effect, even though it doesn't
> actually block my view.
> 

OK I still never got the original message and I will have to look it up
in the archive.  but if you are talking about emissions from a
Thunderstorm 'containing hail' I can relate some additional information.

The appearance of the cloud changes.  The pale blue grey turns to a pale
green.  As the water freezes it expands causing it to resonate the light
differently.  thus bluish becomes greenish 'suposidly'.  This is a
visible effect that experienced storm spotters already know about.

Invisible emissions.  Long-wave IR would show up on a thermal imagery. 
short wave would show up with an ordinary video camera.  This can be
tested.   

The circulation of air/moisture that allows hail to form also causes
charge separation.  It is all about the droplet size within a
thunderstorm updraft.  Air passing water droplets is able to strip
electrons from the smaller drops.  There is valiance even when there is
no lightning.  This will contribute to emissions in other invisible
portions of the spectrum. Or it is possible that the change in tint is
due to the hydrogen emitting a yellow when the electron is stolen from
the water droplet.

Try this.  What other wavelengths are naturally emitted from H1 / H2 when
valance takes place?  Are these possibly causing your effect?


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 07:25:45 2002
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
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--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> [snip]
> What happens when you look into your deep freeze?
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk

The Wife raggs me about wasting electricity.  :-)


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 07:35:17 2002
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Thunderstorm emissions
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--- "Dean T. Miller" <dtmiller midiowa.net> wrote:
> 
> Some types of glass can be compounded to block most IR, and other
> glasses will pass most of the IR band.  Normal window glass passes a
> lot of the IR band.
> 
That refers to IR between 800nm  and 1300nm  (short wave IR) This is the
peak passive portion of the spectrum for led based glass.  Silicon based
glass tends to pass shorter waves.  550nm to 1000 nm.  Long-wave is quite
different.  This is closely related to the heat you can feel.  All glass
passes this poorly.

> I would think that you'd get the same sensation when looking into a
> clear night sky, wouldn't you?  The effective temperature is quite a
> bit below freezing (for almost all compounds, being close to absolute
> zero).

suggesting that it is not a 'temperature' based effect.



=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 07:57:02 2002
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Message-ID: <20020611144730.23578.qmail web20908.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 07:47:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Patrick Dowland <patrick_dowland yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Huge attachment from Patrick Dowland
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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> Hi all, I have just had to call my ISP because an email message from 
> Patrick Dowland was jamming my mailbox. They had to delete it before I 
> could download the rest of my messages. Apparently the attachment was 
> 17Mbytes!!! This is not welcome - don't we have a 40kb (or thereabouts)
> limit on message size?

I didn't send any large messages or any messages with attachments, so it
sounds like somebody who had a message from me in his mailbox and who has
you on their address list got one of those viruses that spreads by sending 
mail to everybody on the address list, and makes the "From" address look
like one of the "From" addresses in the mailbox.  Sorry to hear it.


Patrick


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 08:27:26 2002
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:23:06 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Huge attachment . . . and other recent problems
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Patrick Dowland wrote:


> > Hi all, I have just had to call my ISP because an email message from
> > Patrick Dowland was jamming my mailbox. . . .

>I didn't send any large messages or any messages with attachments, so it 
>sounds like somebody who had a message from me in his mailbox and who has 
>you on their address list got one of those viruses that spreads by sending 
>mail to everybody on the address list, and makes the "From" address look 
>like one of the "From" addresses in the mailbox.  Sorry to hear it.
>
>Patrick



Along those lines, I received the following message by direct e-mail:

From: "Robert" <_robert natvita.co.nz>
To: jedrothwell infinite-energy.com
Subject: Re: Re: Re-annexation of American colonies
X-Unsent: 1
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 20:34:05 +1200
X-BLTSYMAVREINSERT: s7DicGwAWj1K3PKtXG9vHQ3WmkgA

-----------------------
NOTICE:
One or more files attached to this message were found to contain
a malicious virus and have been removed by the anti-virus email
filter. Please ask the originator of the email to clean the virus
from the file and resend it.
-----------------------

I responded:

What does this mean? Which message do you refer to? Did I send it?

None of the messages I have sent include an attachment as far as I know. . . .



There was no response to my response.

In my opinion, the whole structure of the Internet should be rebuilt from 
scratch to prevent this sort of thing. We need two kinds of Internet:

1. The present system as is, with all its weaknesses, left in place 
indefinitely.

2. Premium or structured Internet, with features such as: Much stronger 
message checking; enforced sender IDs with automatic verification (the ISP 
server would add your message heading, not you); message type in the header 
(with categories such "personal, unsolicited commercial, newslist" defined 
and enforced by law); and other improvements to prevent spam, viral 
attachments and so on. The cost per message will be higher, but so what? It 
will still be trivial to all but the spammers. Newslists like this one will 
be paid for automatically by the recipients. People who send out 
"unsolicited commercial" (spam) disguised as "personal" will face immediate 
disconnection and a fine of $1 per message, again, enforceable by law.

A year after "premium Internet" is introduced, most people will refuse to 
accept old style e-mail. ISPs will be happy to make that a server option, 
since they will make more money from premium mail. This will wipe out spam. 
I do not think this scheme would violate free speech laws, since a person 
can always send out an old style, unstructured e-mail. A person can always 
mail an anonymous paper letter with no return address, and a recipient is 
free to sort out letters with no return address and throw them away unread.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 08:42:18 2002
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Subject: Yikes!
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Quotes from:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28585-2002Jun10.html

Hundreds of thefts have been reported of less threatening nuclear 
byproducts, incapable of atomic detonation but harmfully radioactive 
nonetheless. In November 1995, Chechen rebels demonstrated the risks 
involved when they placed a 33-pound package containing cesium, wrapped in 
yellow paper, on a bench in Moscow's Izmailovo Park. There were no 
explosives, but Chechen rebel field commander Shamil Basayev said he had 
enough materials left to cause "several mini-Chernobyls." . . .

Plutonium and weapons-grade uranium are thought to be well secured in the 
United States, but that is not true of the lower-grade nuclear materials 
required for a dirty bomb.

Thousands of private companies and universities use cesium, strontium, 
cobalt or americium to treat cancer patients, irradiate food against 
harmful microbes, sterilize equipment, monitor the operation of oil wells 
and inspect welding seams. The quantities involved range from tiny traces 
of americium in smoke detectors to thick rods of cobalt, each a foot long, 
that are used by the score in a single food processing plant.
The Nuclear Regulatory Commission reported last month that U.S. companies 
have lost track of nearly 1,500 such radioactive parts since 1996, and more 
than half were never recovered. Up to 30,000 radioactive parts are believed 
to have been abandoned or thrown away, according to an Environmental 
Protection Agency estimate.

Of the thousands of nuclear sources still in use, or decommissioned to 
known storage sites, many are thought to be vulnerable to theft or black 
market sale. And few hospitals or food processing plants are secure enough 
to withstand an armed attack by people intent on seizing the materials by 
force. . . .

As recently as March, an industrial gauge with a significant quantity of 
cesium turned up at a scrap-metal plant near Hertford, N.C., where someone 
had accidentally discarded it. That find led to the recovery of at least 
three other gauges that had been thrown away by a company in Maryland.

Henry Kelly, a physicist who directs the Federation of American Scientists, 
testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that the cesium in 
the Hertford incident alone could contaminate "a swath about one mile long 
covering an area of 40 city blocks." He made the crucial, and 
controversial, assumption that a terrorist could mill the cesium into fine 
particles and disperse it efficiently with 10 pounds of TNT. "If the device 
was detonated at the National Gallery of Art," he said, "the Capitol, 
Supreme Court and Library of Congress would exceed EPA contamination limits 
and might have to be abandoned for decades."

More worrisome to regulators was a 1998 incident in which thieves stole 19 
tubes of medical cesium from a hospital in Greensboro, N.C., a crime 
investigators believe was committed with inside help. Police scoured the 
entire region with radiation-sensing aircraft but found no trace of the 
cesium. To this day, authorities have no idea where the material went . . .

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 08:52:05 2002
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Another Orgone experiment (human IR sense?)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:02:12 -0400
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Hi Rick.

Rick writes:
>This is the thing that's sitting in the back of my mind
>as I read the pros and cons in this thread. The
>self charging of capacitors TT Brown measured
>followed this sort of pattern. He used a constant
>temperature oven and other enclosures that
>should have kept thermal noise and wandering
>ions from the air supply out of the experiment,
>but the diurnal variations were still there.

Yes, that's an interesting point. TT uses large e dielectrics,
and the electroscope uses air dielectric. In either case,
leakage measurements are being made on a substance. It would
be terrific if someone would do this sort of test on
a vacuum capacitor. If the aether is responsible for
variations in leakage you should see the effect most
cleanly ( least artifact ) with a vacuum cap. Considering
the easy availability of such capacitors I should think
it'd be straightforward to test, no vacuum hardware
experience needed.

On the other hand, you and I both did some experiments
on TT's work and came up short. This certainly doesn't
disprove the work, but it makes me wonder just what
was being measured. The problem of course, was not that
you'd see nothing ( common misconception about experimentation )
but that you'd see all kinds of variation. And of course,
the more you control the experiment, the less you see...

>>That said, if you feel a radiated EM wave is responsible,
>>why not try staring at a large block of ice or dry ice and
>>see what happens?

>You see, this is why guys like us tend not to be married (or even have
girlfriends).

Nonsense Rick. I don't marry 'cause I like sex (grin).
Ask most married men about that tragedy....

Besides, freakish behavior is no impediment to romance.
Date artists. They'll stare at that cube right along with ya.
ESPECIALLY if you tell them that you can "see" cold. Oh yes,
I'm telling you, you could build on that.

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 09:37:34 2002
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From: "Doug Marett" <doug.marett sympatico.ca>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020611110236.031f1808 mail.DIRECTVInternet.com>
Subject: Re: Huge attachment . . . and other recent problems
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

>Along those lines, I received the following message by direct e-mail:

>From: "Robert" <_robert natvita.co.nz>
>To: jedrothwell infinite-energy.com
>Subject: Re: Re: Re-annexation of American colonies
>X-Unsent: 1
>Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 20:34:05 +1200
>X-BLTSYMAVREINSERT: s7DicGwAWj1K3PKtXG9vHQ3WmkgA

I got hit by the same virus on the morning of June 8th, subject:  "Re: Reich
electroscopic anomaly - typo correction"

The virus dropped two trojan horse packages into my computer which I then
had to destroy. One was "kernel.exe" and the other was "kdll.dll". These are
keystroke and password stealing programs, which e-mail your activity to a
remote anonymous e-mail box (i.e. hotmail). I suggest that everyone on
vortex-L should check their hardrives and make sure these programs aren't
present.

Doug





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 10:13:52 2002
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:10:47 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Huge attachment . . . and other recent problems
In-Reply-To: <008101c21165$9061e8e0$271dfea9 z6s9t5>
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Doug Marett wrote:

>I got hit by the same virus on the morning of June 8th, subject:  "Re: 
>Reich electroscopic anomaly - typo correction"
>
>The virus dropped two trojan horse packages into my computer which I then 
>had to destroy. . . .

I do not understand. I do not know much about viruses. Please clarify.

Do you mean this message came to you directly, via personal e-mail? Or was 
it distributed via Vortex-l?

The message titled "electroscopic anomaly - typo correction" was posted to 
Vortex by you. I presume you mean someone responded to that message by 
direct e-mail to you, and the response had "kernel.exe" and "kdll.dll" as 
attachments. Right? "Exe" and ".ddl" attachments have been been sent to my 
computer by viruses that took over the mailboxes of my friends. I saw the 
files, deleted them, and informed my friends. Who sent you this message? A 
Vortex reader?

I use Eudora 5.1. It never executes or opens a file without my permission. 
It does display HTML formatting. I hope no one has figured out a way to 
slip a virus into HTML. I suggest the following configuration in Eudora. 
Under Tools, Options: select Viewing Mail and disable "Allow executables in 
HTML contents." Select "Automation" and disable it. Select "Extra Warnings" 
and enable warnings when you "launch" anything.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 10:14:20 2002
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:21:22 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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The insane, or more exactly the sociopath and the social outcast, have always
caused trouble on a small scale.  With the exception of Hitler and Stalin, the
world in general has not been threatened.  Now, any insane person can kill on
a small scale using easily available guns, or kill on a city-wide scale using
radioactive materials or airplanes.  In only a few years, generic engineering
and biochemistry will allow the insane to kill on an even grander scale.  It
is truly amazing to me that people of intelligence can see this situation
developing and can do absolutely nothing to stop it.  All of the efforts at
"homeland security" mean nothing except to keep any real defense from
happening and to require the insane to be slightly more clever.  Mankind in
general only seems to respond after panic when the danger is apparent to any
idiot.  In this case, after the panic will be too late.  We have entered a new
phase in human history, as many people have observed. The basic problem is the
inability to identify the mental disease called insanity, i.e. a distortion of
thinking that is acquired by learning and/or by a defect in brain chemistry,
which causes a person to act in a way that is not consistent with his/her best
interest and with the best interest of humankind.  The pathology is associated
with self-delusion of various forms including hate, very short term
self-interest including excessive greed, and lack of empathy for one's fellow
man.  The problem exists because these characteristics are excused as being
just normal personally aberrations rather than a pathology.  In the extreme,
they are explained by religion as involving evil, an attitude that further
confuses a proper understanding.  Even a religion can act insane if enough of
its believers go insane.   It is apparent to any sane person that mankind is
going more insane, with many examples in business, governments, religion, and
even at the family level.  More people are acting in irrational ways more of
the time.  Increasingly, the inmates are taking over the asylum.  My only
solution, and hope, is that people can be encouraged to examine their actions
and statements, with this problem in mind.  Most people have a core of sanity
that can be used to cure a temporary bout of insanity, if it does not go too
far.  For example, we know when we have a physical disease, and we use proper
actions to affect a cure.  We need to do the same thing when we come down with
a minor mental disease.  The method is to sit back and ask, does this action
advance my long-term interest, does it show an empathy for other people, no
matter how insane they may appear, and does it advance the interests of
mankind?

With the hope for good mental health,
Ed

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Quotes from:
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28585-2002Jun10.html
>
> Hundreds of thefts have been reported of less threatening nuclear
> byproducts, incapable of atomic detonation but harmfully radioactive
> nonetheless. In November 1995, Chechen rebels demonstrated the risks
> involved when they placed a 33-pound package containing cesium, wrapped in
> yellow paper, on a bench in Moscow's Izmailovo Park. There were no
> explosives, but Chechen rebel field commander Shamil Basayev said he had
> enough materials left to cause "several mini-Chernobyls." . . .
>
> Plutonium and weapons-grade uranium are thought to be well secured in the
> United States, but that is not true of the lower-grade nuclear materials
> required for a dirty bomb.
>
> Thousands of private companies and universities use cesium, strontium,
> cobalt or americium to treat cancer patients, irradiate food against
> harmful microbes, sterilize equipment, monitor the operation of oil wells
> and inspect welding seams. The quantities involved range from tiny traces
> of americium in smoke detectors to thick rods of cobalt, each a foot long,
> that are used by the score in a single food processing plant.
> The Nuclear Regulatory Commission reported last month that U.S. companies
> have lost track of nearly 1,500 such radioactive parts since 1996, and more
> than half were never recovered. Up to 30,000 radioactive parts are believed
> to have been abandoned or thrown away, according to an Environmental
> Protection Agency estimate.
>
> Of the thousands of nuclear sources still in use, or decommissioned to
> known storage sites, many are thought to be vulnerable to theft or black
> market sale. And few hospitals or food processing plants are secure enough
> to withstand an armed attack by people intent on seizing the materials by
> force. . . .
>
> As recently as March, an industrial gauge with a significant quantity of
> cesium turned up at a scrap-metal plant near Hertford, N.C., where someone
> had accidentally discarded it. That find led to the recovery of at least
> three other gauges that had been thrown away by a company in Maryland.
>
> Henry Kelly, a physicist who directs the Federation of American Scientists,
> testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that the cesium in
> the Hertford incident alone could contaminate "a swath about one mile long
> covering an area of 40 city blocks." He made the crucial, and
> controversial, assumption that a terrorist could mill the cesium into fine
> particles and disperse it efficiently with 10 pounds of TNT. "If the device
> was detonated at the National Gallery of Art," he said, "the Capitol,
> Supreme Court and Library of Congress would exceed EPA contamination limits
> and might have to be abandoned for decades."
>
> More worrisome to regulators was a 1998 incident in which thieves stole 19
> tubes of medical cesium from a hospital in Greensboro, N.C., a crime
> investigators believe was committed with inside help. Police scoured the
> entire region with radiation-sensing aircraft but found no trace of the
> cesium. To this day, authorities have no idea where the material went . . .

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 10:27:22 2002
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Doug Marett wrote:
>
>> I got hit by the same virus on the morning of June 8th, subject:  
>> "Re: Reich electroscopic anomaly - typo correction"
>>
>> The virus dropped two trojan horse packages into my computer which I 
>> then had to destroy. . . .
>
>
> I do not understand. I do not know much about viruses. Please clarify.
>
> Do you mean this message came to you directly, via personal e-mail? Or 
> was it distributed via Vortex-l? 


I received a virus from a direct email from "Robert" <no last name>, 
with email address robert natvita.co.nz.  This message had a vortex 
subject line, "Re: Re: Another Orgone Experiment (human IR sense)."  The 
virus (actually a worm) was detected as W32/BADTRANS MM which is 
described at:

http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.badtrans.b mm.html

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 10:48:29 2002
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:44:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Patrick Dowland <patrick_dowland yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Reich's electroscopic anomaly 
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> Fatrick Cowland writes:

That would be me.


>> So is this it, or are you going to go back to the original topic?

> Excellent idea. The original topic was experimental evidence
> of Orgone. Just to recap, I suggested to Gene that he post the
> best basic experiment for orgone which we could develop and
> test here on Vortex. He did so, which I do appreciate. We began
> to discuss some of the experimental difficulties and artifacts
> which would have to be overcome to make a convincing experiment.
> At that point, promotional efforts began to seriously damage the
> tone and content of the discussion. I realize how important such
> promotion is to fund raising, but many of us on vortex are really
> interested in whether there is some reality to the claimed effects.

> Doug Marett has kindly supplied us with some substantial papers
> on his experimental research into orgone. Have you done experimental
> research that contradicts his findings? Please post.

Keith Nagel, man, you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Not one, not two, but three weak, cowardly strategies, all in one
post!
 
The first one goes like this: when your party has given up the fight, 
make it look like there was no fight at all, and something altogether 
different was going on.  The second one goes: try to misrepresent, 
degrade and belittle your opponent's position by using insinuation, 
to make him look base but without anything tangible (it's important
that it not be tangible). The third one goes: switch the topic to your 
opponent's credentials and focus in particular on the credentials that
have no relevance to the fight you just lost -- since with respect to
the credentials that are relevant the opponent has already proven 
himself by winning the fight.

The way this is supposed to work goes like this:  since the gist of 
all these strategies is insinuation and irrelevance, they are not even 
worth a response.  If the opponent decides to respond at all, he is 
liable to making himself look like he's protesting too much, since 
anything he says is already too much.  On the other hand, if the 
opponent decides not to grace this trash with a response, then he is
liable to look like he has been made speechless, and the 
insinuations stand as the last word and take the victory.

So here goes.  One: what "damaged the tone and content of the 
discussion", as you put it, was the fact that Marett's "findings" 
about Reich's electroscopic experiments showed themselves to be mighty 
shoddy and feeble, when they were examined with any kind of honesty 
and scientific spirit, taking into account contrary evidence coming 
from real thought and experimentation that was done by others.  
Now that the Correa work has been published, any honest research 
concerning  the ORAC anomalies has to at least deal squarely with what 
they have demonstrated and proposed.  Otherwise it's like trying to 
pretend to do research in quantum mechanics without taking into 
account, one way or the other, the work of people like Plank, Bohr 
or Heisenberg.  If honesty damages the discussion for you, then so much
worse for you and the discussion.   And, just as I have pointed out, 
Marett even uses the Correa research when it suits his designs, but 
without giving any credit and without facing it squarely and openly.
 
Two: you are insinuating that what I am into is some kind of fund 
raising project.  Could you say a bit more?  What project is that?  
>From whom am I trying to get funds and for what?  

Three: you are asking me if I have done any experimental research that
contradicts Marett's findings.  The answer is that there is plenty of
experimental research that contradicts Marett's "findings", and I have
pointed out some of it.  Asking, in the insinuating way you do, 
whether I have done these experiments myself is nothing but
a low trick to divert attention.  They have been done and documented, 
and the results are available to anybody who cares to look.
You wouldn't have the gall to use this argument if I was invoking, say, 
Maxwell's equations, instead of the published research by the Correas.  
And yes, when I find it necessary to perform experiments, I do.  In the 
case of tracing the shoddiness of Marett's argument I have no need to 
do so because all I have to do is read and think -- two things of 
which you, Keith Nagel, seem to be completely incapable.  You can't 
even manage to read the papers that contain hundreds of experiments 
pertaining to the question of the existence of the orgone, even while
you pretend to suddenly have a burning interest in this question. 
You have to bug other people, who are capable and willing to do 
the work of reading and thinking, to spit out for you a prechewed 
pablum that will supposedly "convince you" of something you don't 
even give a broken nickel about.

If I was Marett, I would feel a bit queezy about having people
like you try to rush to my defence with these petty, underhanded 
tricks.  What Marett needs, to my way of thinking, is not defence 
from people like you, but a bit less laziness and opportunism.  

I reckon you will come back with a "My oh my, aren't we getting pissy"
kind of repartee, that's just your style.  You may as well not bother
with that.



Cheers,

Patrick



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 10:50:20 2002
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>Jed Rothwell wrote;
>
>The first estimates of Avogadro's number were made around 1865. 
>Avogadro's hypothesis was "almost completely neglected" from the 
>time he published in 1811 until 1860, four years after his death. I 
>think he was attacked mainly because he showed that Dalton was 
>wrong. Does this sound familiar?
>
>Bentley was the first to photograph a snowflake, and he was decades 
>ahead of others explaining the structure and dynamics of flake 
>formation and precipitation. I doubt that scientists before 1900 
>realized flakes were complex. They may have thought of them as 
>simple, uniform and without structure, the way Richard Blue used to 
>characterize palladium, and the way most people think of liquid 
>water, even now.
>
Ah, this is much better than arguing about the Correa's research.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 11:04:21 2002
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:03:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Patrick Dowland <patrick_dowland yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly
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Agent Marett wrote:

> Anyway, I have been talking about Reich, and you are
> trying to goad me into talking about the Correas, and like a bad
> vacation, that's a place I don't want to go. By the way, did I 
> say your Oscar is in the mail? Good.

Well, I reckon it is your prerogative to withdraw from the fight,
but as one agent to another, I have to confess that I was hoping for
a better fight from you.  It looks like if you can collect an easy 
prize by purveying the safe and obvious, you go for it with great pomp
and fanfare, but once the going gets serious and you have to do some
actual work, you call it a bad vacation and wither away.

In any case, agent Dowland accepts the Oscar from agent Marett.

> Maybe you, your grandpa and uncle George can pool your resources 
> and pull off an experiment!

Ah, you're trying to pull a Keith Nagel.  You have a particular
experiment that, in your opinion, I need to perform?  Speak up, man!



Agent Dowland



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I do not understand. I do not know much about viruses. Please clarify.
>
> Do you mean this message came to you directly, via personal e-mail? Or was
> it distributed via Vortex-l?
>
> The message titled "electroscopic anomaly - typo correction" was posted to
> Vortex by you. I presume you mean someone responded to that message by
> direct e-mail to you, and the response had "kernel.exe" and "kdll.dll" as
> attachments. Right? "Exe" and ".ddl" attachments have been been sent to my
> computer by viruses that took over the mailboxes of my friends. I saw the
> files, deleted them, and informed my friends. Who sent you this message? A
> Vortex reader?
>
That's correct. I received an e-mail from vortex-L from Robert which was an
alleged response to my previous post, and instead of being a response, it
was a setup file to drop two trojan horses into my computer. I was alarmed
by this, because my anti-viral software failed to delete or quarantine the
virus immediately. I did some background searches on the internet, and found
that this virus uses a backdoor in outlook express to get in ( Outlook
Express can automatically open the attachment even if you don't). Microsoft
has made a patch for this loophole, which can be found at:

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/MS01-020.asp

The best way to remove the virus is to use a removal tool. Which I myself
downloaded. See:

W32.Badtrans.B mm Removal Tool

Terry Blanton pointed out a good site for more info in the previous post.

Doug


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Subject: Reductionists versus people who make things more complicated
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thomas malloy wrote:

>>I doubt that scientists before 1900 realized flakes were complex. They 
>>may have thought of them as simple, uniform and without structure, the 
>>way Richard Blue used to characterize palladium, and the way most people 
>>think of liquid water, even now.
>Ah, this is much better than arguing about the Correa's research.

More fruitful too. My statement may sound a little argumentative, but in 
this instance I did not mean to denigrate scientists circa 1900, or Blue 
today. These are interesting counter-examples to well-known history of 
science trends. Scientific progress often occurs as reductionism or 
simplification. Mysterious, complex, seemingly unrelated anomalies are 
discovered. A conceptual breakthrough shows that they are linked together 
and simple set of rules governs them. People who make those breakthroughs 
win Nobel Prizes and become celebrated Big Guns.

Bentley is an example of the opposite trend. People sometimes assume that 
an object or phenomenon is simple & well understood, until someone like 
Bentley comes along and takes a much closer look. He found more information 
in a snowflake than anyone though might be there. He learned to read the 
natural history of the flake: the kind of cloud it formed in, the 
temperatures and weather at different heights. This is not the same as 
discovering an anomaly. Bentley did not discover any new laws. He learned 
nothing about snow and rain that cannot be explained with standard physics. 
He did not simplify; he complicated things.

In 1890 people thought that atoms were indivisible tiny round bodies, as 
simple as matter can be: the ultimate, final form of matter, the 
reductionist's dream. Then they learned atoms are complicated, made of 
smaller parts. Later still they found a menagerie of sub-sub-atomic 
particles -- quarks. As far as I know things are still complicated. Peter 
Hagelstein told me about string theory and the hope that it will, finally, 
prove to be irreducible simplest form & quanta of matter, because space and 
time do not mean anything in smaller doses. Maybe that will happen, but I 
would not bet on it.

The people who complicated things by finding protons and neutron sub-atomic 
particles quickly won the Nobel prize, but most of the time the 
"complicators" meet with resentment, because they make things harder. They 
ask more questions than they answer. They reveal new vistas of unexpected 
ignorance, instead of knowledge. The first person to show that atoms are 
not featureless and indivisible was S. A. Arrhenius, in 1884 with the 
theory of ionic disassociation. (Ions -- partial atoms -- were thought to 
be impossible.) He was rewarded with a swift kick in the butt, the lowest 
possible passing grade, banishment, and 19 years of ignominy. (See 
Beaudette, chapter 11, and especially p. 147 to see how this ties in 
directly with the history of CF). Once Arrhenius showed that atoms have 
structure and components, it became safe for others to investigate this 
topic. Progress and rewards came swiftly. Chadwick discovered the neutron 
in 1932 and got the Nobel for it in 1935.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 12:04:16 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Huge attachment . . . and other recent problems
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:16:46 -0400
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Hi.

The virus works by exploiting a bug in the download facility
of IE. You can fix Outlook by disabling "File Download" in
Internet Explorers security settings. A remarkable security hole, all you
need
do is open the email for the infection to occur.

I don't think Jed has much to worry about, unless IE is being used
as the rendering engine for Eudoras HTML, which I don't think
it is.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Marett [mailto:doug.marett sympatico.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:13 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Huge attachment . . . and other recent problems



Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I do not understand. I do not know much about viruses. Please clarify.
>
> Do you mean this message came to you directly, via personal e-mail? Or was
> it distributed via Vortex-l?
>
> The message titled "electroscopic anomaly - typo correction" was posted to
> Vortex by you. I presume you mean someone responded to that message by
> direct e-mail to you, and the response had "kernel.exe" and "kdll.dll" as
> attachments. Right? "Exe" and ".ddl" attachments have been been sent to my
> computer by viruses that took over the mailboxes of my friends. I saw the
> files, deleted them, and informed my friends. Who sent you this message? A
> Vortex reader?
>
That's correct. I received an e-mail from vortex-L from Robert which was an
alleged response to my previous post, and instead of being a response, it
was a setup file to drop two trojan horses into my computer. I was alarmed
by this, because my anti-viral software failed to delete or quarantine the
virus immediately. I did some background searches on the internet, and found
that this virus uses a backdoor in outlook express to get in ( Outlook
Express can automatically open the attachment even if you don't). Microsoft
has made a patch for this loophole, which can be found at:

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/bulletin/MS01-020.asp

The best way to remove the virus is to use a removal tool. Which I myself
downloaded. See:

W32.Badtrans.B mm Removal Tool

Terry Blanton pointed out a good site for more info in the previous post.

Doug



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 12:14:39 2002
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Subject: Equipment and suggestions needed for gravity wave experiment
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
Reply-To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:13:30 +0400
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Hi,

I am planning an experiment based on Chiao's paper and I need some equipment.

I am looking on Ebay, pretty good resource. meanwhile if one of you have one of the equipment
 I need please inform me. These include:

1) Signal or sweep generator covering 8-12GHz range. same as 2-8GHz

2) GaAs or tube(i.e. TWT) amplifier or power oscillator covering 8-12GHz or 10-18GHz with
   4W or more output power.

3) Broad range RF receiver would be useful.

4) Oscilloscope BW > 400MHz. I am bidding on eBay for Tektronix 2465B (analog scope) with 400MHz min BW and
   hope to see signals up to 1.2 - 1.5GHz. Digital real-time scopes are expensive although
   they are better to capture hi speed transient. I can spend on such digital scope up to $1300.

5) Broard range premaplifiers and detectors covering 12GHz.

The 12Ghz frequency is suggested in the paper. But I understand that frequency was choosen in order
the SC disk dimension fit one wavelength. But this argument may not be critical. On lower freqiencies,
eqperiment would be significantly less costly. Microwave oven have plenty of power and there are lot
of devices can detect this range.

Anyway equipment I am looking for would be no older than one decade due to custom restrictions and old
devices are heavy and oversea shipping would be costly.

I think I can use Ku band satellite receiver hardware, LNB, amplifier, etc. covering range 10.7GHz - 
12.7GHz. But this 2 GHz range would be too narrow if the phenomena could be exhibited on a specific
frequency dependent to properties of the specific superconductor material.

(it would be interesting to examine rf response of superconductors. It is known electrical resistance
increase dramatically with frequency in microwave region, but I dont know this curve is smooth or not.

I think this experiments would be not easy because there are several number of variables (type of SC,
temperature, applied external magnetic and electrical fields, applied rf frequency, power, angles,
phases), (quadrupolar em radiation was suggested by the author, An mw expert may help me on this).

Unfortunately, I have no option to work with temperature lower than 77K. and still LN2 evaporating
rate would be a limiting factor on experiment duration.

I will be happy to hear your suggestions on designing this experiment.  Experiment setup principle
is described on the paper (http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/0204012)

Be sure I will not suppress myself if I got GW's.
 
Regards,

hamdi ucar  

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 12:23:31 2002
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From: "Mike Carrell" <mikec snip.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Yikes!
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:18:07 -0700
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Ed Storms said,


> The insane, or more exactly the sociopath and the social outcast, have
always
> caused trouble on a small scale.  With the exception of Hitler and Stalin,
the
> world in general has not been threatened.  Now, any insane person can kill
on
> a small scale using easily available guns, or kill on a city-wide scale
using
> radioactive materials or airplanes.  In only a few years, generic
engineering
> and biochemistry will allow the insane to kill on an even grander scale.
It
> is truly amazing to me that people of intelligence can see this situation
> developing and can do absolutely nothing to stop it.  All of the efforts
at
> "homeland security" mean nothing except to keep any real defense from
> happening and to require the insane to be slightly more clever.  Mankind
in
> general only seems to respond after panic when the danger is apparent to
any
> idiot.  In this case, after the panic will be too late.  We have entered a
new
> phase in human history, as many people have observed. The basic problem is
the
> inability to identify the mental disease called insanity, i.e. a
distortion of
> thinking that is acquired by learning and/or by a defect in brain
chemistry,
> which causes a person to act in a way that is not consistent with his/her
best
> interest and with the best interest of humankind.

There is a very slippery slope here which Ed seems unaware of. The power to
define insanity and error is a weapon of social control exercised by
organized religions and tyrants for a very long time. The soviets routinely
put dissenters in insane asylums, for anyone who protested against the ideal
state was obviously insane. That the US and other 'developed' countries are
becoming more and more drug cultures is due in part to systematic promotion
of mind-altering drugs on the nightly news. Some significant number of the
high school violence is associated with people who have been using these
drugs. An argument will be made that such were needed to control symptoms,
but the appropriate dosage varies widely with individuals and the available
pills are often overdoses which tilt the balance into aberrant states.

The best interest of humankind (for the greater good) is often very hard to
define and is in the eye of the beholder.

The pathology is associated
> with self-delusion of various forms including hate, very short term
> self-interest including excessive greed, and lack of empathy for one's
fellow
> man.  The problem exists because these characteristics are excused as
being
> just normal personally aberrations rather than a pathology.  In the
extreme,
> they are explained by religion as involving evil, an attitude that further
> confuses a proper understanding.  Even a religion can act insane if enough
of
> its believers go insane.   It is apparent to any sane person that mankind
is
> going more insane, with many examples in business, governments, religion,
and
> even at the family level.  More people are acting in irrational ways more
of
> the time.  Increasingly, the inmates are taking over the asylum.  My only
> solution, and hope, is that people can be encouraged to examine their
actions
> and statements, with this problem in mind.  Most people have a core of
sanity
> that can be used to cure a temporary bout of insanity, if it does not go
too
> far.

This is the basis for hope, self-examination, restraint and individual
responsibility and accountability. It is also necessary to realize the world
in some respects is intrinsically dangerous and social mechanisms and
customs operate to give a margin of safety. In retrospect, the greatest
damage of 9/11 was psychological, the realization that we could be bloodied.
The cost of the buildings is trivial, ten times the casualties are lost in
automobile accidents every year without public outcry. The shock reaction
that "it must not happen again" is costing the nation and the economy
manyfold over the incident itself. And if there is a "dirty bomb", the cost
will be in public panic inflamed by decades of ultraconservative dosage
assessments which can define almost anything as "contaminated" or
"radioactive". These arise from a demand to live in an absolutely safe
environment -- which is a hook which can be used by evil people to gain
power and control to "protect" the people form some great but intangible
evil.

The elevation of Homeland Security to high status is one big step to ward a
domestic secret police, especially since the enemy is hard to define and
locate. Anybody remember the McCarthy hearings and the House Un-American
Activities committee?

For example, we know when we have a physical disease, and we use proper
> actions to affect a cure.  We need to do the same thing when we come down
with
> a minor mental disease.  The method is to sit back and ask, does this
action
> advance my long-term interest, does it show an empathy for other people,
no
> matter how insane they may appear, and does it advance the interests of
> mankind?
>
Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 12:41:22 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <hamdix@verisoft.com.tr>
Subject: RE: Equipment and suggestions needed for gravity wave experiment
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:53:47 -0400
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Hi Hamdi.

Glad to see you're still around, I was beginning to wonder...

I've used the Tek 2465B quite a lot, it's a great scope and the
B part is for "brighteye" which means a microchannel plate is
used for imaging, good for transient work in the days before
digital scopes. If you can find a B for $1300 you're getting a pretty
good deal. That said, what you need is not a scope but a
spectrum analyser. These tools are designed for GHz band
measurement, and will be much more sensitive and useful
for the experiment you are contemplating. They're a bit
pricey, but you can rent them for a reasonable
amount of money. It's going to be a challenge to work
at those frequencies, especially over a band. Much better
if you can do the old NMR trick and keep freq constant
while you vary other parameters.

I'm afraid that expecting to scope such high freq. signals
will be a disappointment to you, consider using diode detectors
and modulating the RF signal.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr [mailto:hamdix@verisoft.com.tr]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 3:14 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Equipment and suggestions needed for gravity wave experiment



Hi,

I am planning an experiment based on Chiao's paper and I need some
equipment.

I am looking on Ebay, pretty good resource. meanwhile if one of you have one
of the equipment
 I need please inform me. These include:

1) Signal or sweep generator covering 8-12GHz range. same as 2-8GHz

2) GaAs or tube(i.e. TWT) amplifier or power oscillator covering 8-12GHz or
10-18GHz with
   4W or more output power.

3) Broad range RF receiver would be useful.

4) Oscilloscope BW > 400MHz. I am bidding on eBay for Tektronix 2465B
(analog scope) with 400MHz min BW and
   hope to see signals up to 1.2 - 1.5GHz. Digital real-time scopes are
expensive although
   they are better to capture hi speed transient. I can spend on such
digital scope up to $1300.

5) Broard range premaplifiers and detectors covering 12GHz.

The 12Ghz frequency is suggested in the paper. But I understand that
frequency was choosen in order
the SC disk dimension fit one wavelength. But this argument may not be
critical. On lower freqiencies,
eqperiment would be significantly less costly. Microwave oven have plenty of
power and there are lot
of devices can detect this range.

Anyway equipment I am looking for would be no older than one decade due to
custom restrictions and old
devices are heavy and oversea shipping would be costly.

I think I can use Ku band satellite receiver hardware, LNB, amplifier, etc.
covering range 10.7GHz -
12.7GHz. But this 2 GHz range would be too narrow if the phenomena could be
exhibited on a specific
frequency dependent to properties of the specific superconductor material.

(it would be interesting to examine rf response of superconductors. It is
known electrical resistance
increase dramatically with frequency in microwave region, but I dont know
this curve is smooth or not.

I think this experiments would be not easy because there are several number
of variables (type of SC,
temperature, applied external magnetic and electrical fields, applied rf
frequency, power, angles,
phases), (quadrupolar em radiation was suggested by the author, An mw expert
may help me on this).

Unfortunately, I have no option to work with temperature lower than 77K. and
still LN2 evaporating
rate would be a limiting factor on experiment duration.

I will be happy to hear your suggestions on designing this experiment.
Experiment setup principle
is described on the paper (http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/0204012)

Be sure I will not suppress myself if I got GW's.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 13:16:47 2002
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From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin rogers.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "Robert M. Bowman" <Bowman2000 rmbowman.com>
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Subject: Re: Huge attachment . . . and other recent problems
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:10:36 -0400
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To Vo:

I also received a virus from a Robert, and also on June 7.  Robert M.
Bowman.

----- Original Message -----
From: Robert
To: crquin rogers.com
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 4:34 AM
Subject: Re: Jed's comments on Reich's ORAC

Just now, when I hit "reply" on Robert's message, the sender's name (Robert)
expanded to a Robert M. Bowman, and it originated from New Zealand. The
attached virus was named  DOC.DOC.pif.

That pif virus is a particularly nasty bit of work.

Doug believes it came from Vortex but he may have erased it before
confirming this. I still have the message in my delete file and it was sent
to me individually even though the subject heading WAS from Vortex.

Who else on the Vortex list has received this virus? Mr. Bowman should at
the very least be made aware that his computer is infected. I have cc'd him.

Colin




----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Marett" <doug.marett sympatico.ca>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: Huge attachment . . . and other recent problems


> Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> >Along those lines, I received the following message by direct e-mail:
>
> >From: "Robert" <_robert natvita.co.nz>
> >To: jedrothwell infinite-energy.com
> >Subject: Re: Re: Re-annexation of American colonies
> >X-Unsent: 1
> >Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 20:34:05 +1200
> >X-BLTSYMAVREINSERT: s7DicGwAWj1K3PKtXG9vHQ3WmkgA
>
> I got hit by the same virus on the morning of June 8th, subject:  "Re:
Reich
> electroscopic anomaly - typo correction"
>
> The virus dropped two trojan horse packages into my computer which I then
> had to destroy. One was "kernel.exe" and the other was "kdll.dll". These
are
> keystroke and password stealing programs, which e-mail your activity to a
> remote anonymous e-mail box (i.e. hotmail). I suggest that everyone on
> vortex-L should check their hardrives and make sure these programs aren't
> present.
>
> Doug
>
>
>
>
>


---

Some files have not been scanned

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/9/2002

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 13:24:41 2002
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Reply-To: "Colin Quinney" <crquin rogers.com>
From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin rogers.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "Robert M. Bowman" <Bowman2000 rmbowman.com>
Subject: Fw: Huge attachment . . . and other recent problems CORRECTION
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:20:58 -0400
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To Vo:

Due to a property of Outlook Express expanding names in the "To:" section
from my address book, I suddenly realized that the Robert with the virus is
not the same person as Robert M. Bowman. My apologies to Mr. Bowman for the
misunderstanding.

Colin


----- Original Message -----
From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin rogers.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Cc: "Robert M. Bowman" <Bowman2000 rmbowman.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: Huge attachment . . . and other recent problems


> To Vo:
>
> I also received a virus from a Robert, and also on June 7.  Robert M.
> Bowman.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Robert
> To: crquin rogers.com
> Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 4:34 AM
> Subject: Re: Jed's comments on Reich's ORAC
>
> Just now, when I hit "reply" on Robert's message, the sender's name
(Robert)
> expanded to a Robert M. Bowman, and it originated from New Zealand. The
> attached virus was named  DOC.DOC.pif.
>
> That pif virus is a particularly nasty bit of work.
>
> Doug believes it came from Vortex but he may have erased it before
> confirming this. I still have the message in my delete file and it was
sent
> to me individually even though the subject heading WAS from Vortex.
>
> Who else on the Vortex list has received this virus? Mr. Bowman should at
> the very least be made aware that his computer is infected. I have cc'd
him.
>
> Colin
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Marett" <doug.marett sympatico.ca>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Huge attachment . . . and other recent problems
>
>
> > Jed Rothwell wrote:
> >
> > >Along those lines, I received the following message by direct e-mail:
> >
> > >From: "Robert" <_robert natvita.co.nz>
> > >To: jedrothwell infinite-energy.com
> > >Subject: Re: Re: Re-annexation of American colonies
> > >X-Unsent: 1
> > >Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 20:34:05 +1200
> > >X-BLTSYMAVREINSERT: s7DicGwAWj1K3PKtXG9vHQ3WmkgA
> >
> > I got hit by the same virus on the morning of June 8th, subject:  "Re:
> Reich
> > electroscopic anomaly - typo correction"
> >
> > The virus dropped two trojan horse packages into my computer which I
then
> > had to destroy. One was "kernel.exe" and the other was "kdll.dll". These
> are
> > keystroke and password stealing programs, which e-mail your activity to
a
> > remote anonymous e-mail box (i.e. hotmail). I suggest that everyone on
> > vortex-L should check their hardrives and make sure these programs
aren't
> > present.
> >
> > Doug
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ---
>
> Some files have not been scanned
>
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/9/2002
>


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 13:30:23 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:38:45 -0400
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Hi Ed.

When the famous mathematician Bertrand Russell would be
overwhelmed by the days events ( the man did jail time
for war protesting, amonst other things ) he would read
history and feel better. In fact, things have improved
markedly over time. I agree with you that currently
we are at a low point, the current administration is
in WAY over their heads I think. That things are
unravelling both locally and globally is probably
a good thing in the long run, it's impetus to make
the kind of changes you're suggesting.

For a hair curling story of just how poor judgement
can be, check out this link.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/DailyNews/ross_bryant020606.html

Ms Bryant is a loan officer at the dept. of agriculture,
and was approached by Mohammad Atta for a loan for the
911 attack.

Favorite quote from the article:

"I think it's very vital that the Americans realize that when
these people come to the United States, they don't have a big
'T' on their forehead," she said, telling her story to ABCNEWS
in defiance of direct orders from the USDA's Washington
headquarters. "They don't look like what you think a terrorist
would look like," said Bryant.

Well, here's a clue. If someone comes into your office, insults you,
threatens to rob you, threatens to destroy Washington, and
asks for 1/2 million dollars for a shady business deal, then
comes back AGAIN in DISGUISE and asks for the same money for
a different shady deal, uhmmm, that's probably a terrorist Ms. Bryant.

Ah, homeland security...

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: Edmund Storms [mailto:storms2 ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:21 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Yikes!


The insane, or more exactly the sociopath and the social outcast, have
always
caused trouble on a small scale.  With the exception of Hitler and Stalin,
the
world in general has not been threatened.  Now, any insane person can kill
on
a small scale using easily available guns, or kill on a city-wide scale
using
radioactive materials or airplanes.  In only a few years, generic
engineering
and biochemistry will allow the insane to kill on an even grander scale.  It
is truly amazing to me that people of intelligence can see this situation
developing and can do absolutely nothing to stop it.  All of the efforts at
"homeland security" mean nothing except to keep any real defense from
happening and to require the insane to be slightly more clever.  Mankind in
general only seems to respond after panic when the danger is apparent to any
idiot.  In this case, after the panic will be too late.  We have entered a
new
phase in human history, as many people have observed. The basic problem is
the
inability to identify the mental disease called insanity, i.e. a distortion
of
thinking that is acquired by learning and/or by a defect in brain chemistry,
which causes a person to act in a way that is not consistent with his/her
best
interest and with the best interest of humankind.  The pathology is
associated
with self-delusion of various forms including hate, very short term
self-interest including excessive greed, and lack of empathy for one's
fellow
man.  The problem exists because these characteristics are excused as being
just normal personally aberrations rather than a pathology.  In the extreme,
they are explained by religion as involving evil, an attitude that further
confuses a proper understanding.  Even a religion can act insane if enough
of
its believers go insane.   It is apparent to any sane person that mankind is
going more insane, with many examples in business, governments, religion,
and
even at the family level.  More people are acting in irrational ways more of
the time.  Increasingly, the inmates are taking over the asylum.  My only
solution, and hope, is that people can be encouraged to examine their
actions
and statements, with this problem in mind.  Most people have a core of
sanity
that can be used to cure a temporary bout of insanity, if it does not go too
far.  For example, we know when we have a physical disease, and we use
proper
actions to affect a cure.  We need to do the same thing when we come down
with
a minor mental disease.  The method is to sit back and ask, does this action
advance my long-term interest, does it show an empathy for other people, no
matter how insane they may appear, and does it advance the interests of
mankind?

With the hope for good mental health,
Ed

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Quotes from:
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28585-2002Jun10.html
>
> Hundreds of thefts have been reported of less threatening nuclear
> byproducts, incapable of atomic detonation but harmfully radioactive
> nonetheless. In November 1995, Chechen rebels demonstrated the risks
> involved when they placed a 33-pound package containing cesium, wrapped in
> yellow paper, on a bench in Moscow's Izmailovo Park. There were no
> explosives, but Chechen rebel field commander Shamil Basayev said he had
> enough materials left to cause "several mini-Chernobyls." . . .
>
> Plutonium and weapons-grade uranium are thought to be well secured in the
> United States, but that is not true of the lower-grade nuclear materials
> required for a dirty bomb.
>
> Thousands of private companies and universities use cesium, strontium,
> cobalt or americium to treat cancer patients, irradiate food against
> harmful microbes, sterilize equipment, monitor the operation of oil wells
> and inspect welding seams. The quantities involved range from tiny traces
> of americium in smoke detectors to thick rods of cobalt, each a foot long,
> that are used by the score in a single food processing plant.
> The Nuclear Regulatory Commission reported last month that U.S. companies
> have lost track of nearly 1,500 such radioactive parts since 1996, and
more
> than half were never recovered. Up to 30,000 radioactive parts are
believed
> to have been abandoned or thrown away, according to an Environmental
> Protection Agency estimate.
>
> Of the thousands of nuclear sources still in use, or decommissioned to
> known storage sites, many are thought to be vulnerable to theft or black
> market sale. And few hospitals or food processing plants are secure enough
> to withstand an armed attack by people intent on seizing the materials by
> force. . . .
>
> As recently as March, an industrial gauge with a significant quantity of
> cesium turned up at a scrap-metal plant near Hertford, N.C., where someone
> had accidentally discarded it. That find led to the recovery of at least
> three other gauges that had been thrown away by a company in Maryland.
>
> Henry Kelly, a physicist who directs the Federation of American
Scientists,
> testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that the cesium in
> the Hertford incident alone could contaminate "a swath about one mile long
> covering an area of 40 city blocks." He made the crucial, and
> controversial, assumption that a terrorist could mill the cesium into fine
> particles and disperse it efficiently with 10 pounds of TNT. "If the
device
> was detonated at the National Gallery of Art," he said, "the Capitol,
> Supreme Court and Library of Congress would exceed EPA contamination
limits
> and might have to be abandoned for decades."
>
> More worrisome to regulators was a 1998 incident in which thieves stole 19
> tubes of medical cesium from a hospital in Greensboro, N.C., a crime
> investigators believe was committed with inside help. Police scoured the
> entire region with radiation-sensing aircraft but found no trace of the
> cesium. To this day, authorities have no idea where the material went . .
.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 14:05:25 2002
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Subject: Re: Yikes!
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>All of the efforts at "homeland security" mean nothing except to keep any 
>real defense from happening and to require the insane to be slightly more 
>clever.

Actually, some of the proposed rules for securing radioactive material seem 
pretty good, and may reduce the threat significantly.


>In this case, after the panic will be too late.  We have entered a new
>phase in human history, as many people have observed.

This is not so new, or unprecedented. People have had the ability to commit 
mass murder for a long time. Individual traders in the 18th and early 19th 
century killed millions of native Americans with germ warfare, selling them 
blankets infected with smallpox.


>The basic problem is the inability to identify the mental disease called 
>insanity, i.e. a distortion of thinking that is acquired by learning 
>and/or by a defect in brain chemistry . . .

I do not think this can explain the present wave of terrorism. Millions of 
people support al Qaeda and bin Laden, and celebrated gleefully after the 
attack. In some nations, this was the norm. They cannot all be insane. That 
would stretch the definition of "insanity" or "pathology" to mean "anyone 
who hates anyone else" or "anyone who hates Americans." That would make the 
Japanese insane from 1941 to August 1945, and miraculously cured by 
November 1945. They were not a bit crazy, except maybe a few at the top and 
the field officers who practiced cannibalism. No examination of their brain 
chemistry would have revealed a problem. People in private, at home, when 
not fighting the war were as sane as ever.


>The pathology is associated with self-delusion of various forms including 
>hate, very short term self-interest including excessive greed, and lack of 
>empathy for one's fellow man.

These are normal human conditions, prevalent in all societies, and in other 
primates and most other species. You cannot change such basic human / 
primate nature. And yet without altering this nature we have changed 
society radically, many times, mostly in the right direction. We have 
suppressed or eliminated social ills such as slavery, child labor, extreme 
poverty and so on. We do not need to change human nature to achieve 
progress or insure a reasonable level of safety against terrorism. We do 
not need to fool with the Constitution. A society that survived the Civil 
War, the Great Depression and WWII can defeat terrorism too. People are 
tough and resourceful when the need arises.


>It is apparent to any sane person that mankind is going more insane, with 
>many examples in business, governments, religion, and even at the family level.

It doesn't seem worse to me than it ever did. I think you need to read more 
history to appreciate how insane things were during the 100 Years War, in 
1860 in Virginia, 1938 in Russia, and everywhere in 1945. Business 
pathology and the Enron scandals are nothing compared to the scandals that 
led to the 1929 Wall Street crash or the Panic of 1907. Actually, this is a 
quiet moment in history.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 14:15:05 2002
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Subject: RE: Yikes!
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>For a hair curling story of just how poor judgement can be, check out this 
>link.
>
>http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/DailyNews/ross_bryant020606.html


See also:

http://www.prairiehome.org/performances/20020608/ducttape.shtml

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 15:06:14 2002
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Subject: Re: Equipment and suggestions needed for gravity wave experiment
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Keith Nagel wrote:
> 
> Hi Hamdi.
> 
> Glad to see you're still around, I was beginning to wonder...
> 
> I've used the Tek 2465B quite a lot, it's a great scope and the
> B part is for "brighteye" which means a microchannel plate is
> used for imaging, good for transient work in the days before
> digital scopes. If you can find a B for $1300 you're getting a pretty
> good deal.

Yes, I read this feature, very useful for me.
Yesterday one was sold for $610 and was good condition according Avalon
Equipment. Now I am following an other bid that I hope to get it below 1K.


> That said, what you need is not a scope but a
> spectrum analyser. These tools are designed for GHz band
> measurement, and will be much more sensitive and useful
> for the experiment you are contemplating.

This is true if the effect I am looking for persist during sweep time of the analyzer.
Otherwise, If effect show up in transients, may only real-time spectrum analyzers
can catch it. So Scope would be more convenient. 

> They're a bit
> pricey, but you can rent them for a reasonable
> amount of money.

But In my city there are no such a services. local price of test&meas. equipment is about 2 times
of US prices.

> It's going to be a challenge to work
> at those frequencies, especially over a band. Much better
> if you can do the old NMR trick and keep freq constant
> while you vary other parameters.
> 
> I'm afraid that expecting to scope such high freq. signals
> will be a disappointment to you, consider using diode detectors
> and modulating the RF signal.

If I can spend a fortune, I can get a TEK 6604 6 GHz scope with 20 Giga samples/seconds, amazing!

Of Course I am planning to use diode detectors to detect existence of em wave generated by YBCO disk,
but still I think I need a good scope to not miss short lived events. Actually, seeing
0.5 to 1ns duration events would be enough, because and E.M. exitation inside reflecting
walls of and metal encosure will live at least 1ns in my experiment despite the actual pulse could be shorter. 

I will try to build a simple detector based Agilent HSCH 53xx Schottky detector diode.
I have no experience on using such diodes, but will try.

> 
> K.
> 
 
 Regards,
 
 hamdi ucar


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 16:29:16 2002
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Mike Carrell wrote:

> Ed Storms said,
>
> > The insane, or more exactly the sociopath and the social outcast, have
> always
> > caused trouble on a small scale.  With the exception of Hitler and Stalin,
> the
> > world in general has not been threatened.  Now, any insane person can kill
> on
> > a small scale using easily available guns, or kill on a city-wide scale
> using
> > radioactive materials or airplanes.  In only a few years, generic
> engineering
> > and biochemistry will allow the insane to kill on an even grander scale.
> It
> > is truly amazing to me that people of intelligence can see this situation
> > developing and can do absolutely nothing to stop it.  All of the efforts
> at
> > "homeland security" mean nothing except to keep any real defense from
> > happening and to require the insane to be slightly more clever.  Mankind
> in
> > general only seems to respond after panic when the danger is apparent to
> any
> > idiot.  In this case, after the panic will be too late.  We have entered a
> new
> > phase in human history, as many people have observed. The basic problem is
> the
> > inability to identify the mental disease called insanity, i.e. a
> distortion of
> > thinking that is acquired by learning and/or by a defect in brain
> chemistry,
> > which causes a person to act in a way that is not consistent with his/her
> best
> > interest and with the best interest of humankind.
>
> There is a very slippery slope here which Ed seems unaware of. The power to
> define insanity and error is a weapon of social control exercised by
> organized religions and tyrants for a very long time. The soviets routinely
> put dissenters in insane asylums, for anyone who protested against the ideal
> state was obviously insane. That the US and other 'developed' countries are
> becoming more and more drug cultures is due in part to systematic promotion
> of mind-altering drugs on the nightly news. Some significant number of the
> high school violence is associated with people who have been using these
> drugs. An argument will be made that such were needed to control symptoms,
> but the appropriate dosage varies widely with individuals and the available
> pills are often overdoses which tilt the balance into aberrant states.
>
> The best interest of humankind (for the greater good) is often very hard to
> define and is in the eye of the beholder.

Mike, I agree, people can use the idea of insanity in insane ways.  Also,
insane people always think they are sane. However, basic norms of human
behavior have always been applied to actions.  Religion was once the basis for
defining these norms, however imperfect this effort might have been.
Unfortunately, religion is losing its effectiveness world-wide.   Of course,
this problem is not new.  Religion has always been imperfect and used by insane
people for their own ends.  I'm only suggesting that people who deviate from
accepted norms of behavior need to be understood in a way that allows their
behavior to be changed or at least understood in the correct context.  The idea
of evil, the idea of being a "freedom fighter", the idea of being an agent of
Allah/God are no longer appropriate to explain the abnormal and destructive
behavior now being witnessed.  Even if I grant that various social and
political outrages exist and even if I admit that people have been treated very
unfairly, the type of action used in response to these outrages will determine
the situation after the outrages are eliminated.  If the response is based on
insanity, the consequences will not be in the best interest of the person or
society who seek a solution.  For example, I offer the Israel-Palestine
conflict as being an example of both parties acting in an insane way.  The
result will be the destruction of both parties.

>
>
> The pathology is associated
> > with self-delusion of various forms including hate, very short term
> > self-interest including excessive greed, and lack of empathy for one's
> fellow
> > man.  The problem exists because these characteristics are excused as
> being
> > just normal personally aberrations rather than a pathology.  In the
> extreme,
> > they are explained by religion as involving evil, an attitude that further
> > confuses a proper understanding.  Even a religion can act insane if enough
> of
> > its believers go insane.   It is apparent to any sane person that mankind
> is
> > going more insane, with many examples in business, governments, religion,
> and
> > even at the family level.  More people are acting in irrational ways more
> of
> > the time.  Increasingly, the inmates are taking over the asylum.  My only
> > solution, and hope, is that people can be encouraged to examine their
> actions
> > and statements, with this problem in mind.  Most people have a core of
> sanity
> > that can be used to cure a temporary bout of insanity, if it does not go
> too
> > far.
>
> This is the basis for hope, self-examination, restraint and individual
> responsibility and accountability. It is also necessary to realize the world
> in some respects is intrinsically dangerous and social mechanisms and
> customs operate to give a margin of safety. In retrospect, the greatest
> damage of 9/11 was psychological, the realization that we could be bloodied.

True, from our point of view.  However, if I were a terrorist who planned this
event, what would I hope to gain?  Clearly, I would hope to weaken my enemy,
and straighten my position in the world.  I would want my religion to increase
in influence, and my family and friends to have a happier life.  What, in fact,
will happen?  My family and friends will be killed; my religion eventually will
be rejected as an aberration, even by Moslems; my influence will be reduced to
zero; and I, and all of my kind, will be hunted to extinction.  Meanwhile the
world will be made worse for the rest of us.  This is the consequence of using
insane methods to solve a problem.  This has nothing to do with politics or
righting a wrong.  It has to do with the methods used to do what needs to be
done.

>
> The cost of the buildings is trivial, ten times the casualties are lost in
> automobile accidents every year without public outcry. The shock reaction
> that "it must not happen again" is costing the nation and the economy
> manyfold over the incident itself. And if there is a "dirty bomb", the cost
> will be in public panic inflamed by decades of ultraconservative dosage
> assessments which can define almost anything as "contaminated" or
> "radioactive". These arise from a demand to live in an absolutely safe
> environment -- which is a hook which can be used by evil people to gain
> power and control to "protect" the people form some great but intangible
> evil.

But why describe them as evil rather than insane?  The problem with evil is
that it is the work of an outside force, i.e. the Devil.  In contrast, insanity
is the work of an inside force, i.e. a mental sickness.  One is treated by
religion, if it is treated at all, and the other can be treated by society if
it can agree on the sickness.

>
>
> The elevation of Homeland Security to high status is one big step to ward a
> domestic secret police, especially since the enemy is hard to define and
> locate. Anybody remember the McCarthy hearings and the House Un-American
> Activities committee?

That is my worry as well.  I never said our government was especially sane.

Ed


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   The e-mail address formerly known as "Patrick Dowland" wrote:

>If I was Marett, I would feel a bit queezy about having people
>like you try to rush to my defence with these petty, underhanded
>tricks.

    Your Huckleberry Finn impression was much more entertaining; your Paulo
Correa impression on the other hand is a little too authentic to not be
real... the mask drops!

>Well, I reckon it is your prerogative to withdraw from the fight,
> but as one agent to another, I have to confess that I was hoping for
> a better fight from you.

Bravo, you admit you are an agent! But I most certainly am not. I have come
on this list honestly, under my own name, discussing the current topic and
my own work, good and bad.

> Ah, you're trying to pull a Keith Nagel.  You have a particular
> experiment that, in your opinion, I need to perform?  Speak up, man!

You want my advice, Paulo, or whoever you are? I'll give you some advice. If
I were you, I would start with a clean slate. Begin by apologizing to the
members of Vortex-L for deceiving them for the past 11 months on this list
and putting on that silly Huckleberry Finn impression. Then read carfully my
critique of Reich's experiments, and the comments and suggestions made by
others on this list as to what would be the appropriate controls. Then
withdraw from this list, and perform those controls, and any others you can
think of, against your own experiments. If your theory does not hold, then
freely admit it and withdraw it. However, if you remain convinced that you
are right, come back to this list, under your real name, and present your
case in a polite and professional manner. And while you are doing all that,
remove all those nasty things you have said about the 40-50 people you have
attacked on your various websites. It doesn't help your cause.

    Until you have done all that, do not try to engage me in conversation. I
am not interested.


Doug






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Edmund Storms wrote:

> The insane, or more exactly the sociopath and the social outcast, have always
> caused trouble on a small scale.  With the exception of Hitler and Stalin, the
> world in general has not been threatened.

Now that's comedy!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 18:54:15 2002
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Keith Nagel wrote:

> Hi Bill.
>
> I've been following this thread on and off, and I'm
> wondering is you may just be experiencing the effects
> of a stream of ions from the location of the storm striking
> your eyes.

hmmm, kind of like those air threads of Bills?
So they could just be air threads tickling his eyes.

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >All of the efforts at "homeland security" mean nothing except to keep any
> >real defense from happening and to require the insane to be slightly more
> >clever.
>
> Actually, some of the proposed rules for securing radioactive material seem
> pretty good, and may reduce the threat significantly.

If all countries apply restrictions, this might help.  However, I have no hope this
will be done in the poorest countries.  Also. anyone with a ordinary nuclear
reactor can activate normal material with neutrons, thereby making the raw material
for a dirty bomb.

>
>
> >In this case, after the panic will be too late.  We have entered a new
> >phase in human history, as many people have observed.
>
> This is not so new, or unprecedented. People have had the ability to commit
> mass murder for a long time. Individual traders in the 18th and early 19th
> century killed millions of native Americans with germ warfare, selling them
> blankets infected with smallpox.

This is perhaps insanity on the scale we will suffer in the future.  However, back
then smallpox could be contained because the native Americans were isolated.  These
days the disease would rapidly spread throughout the world.  I suggest, things have
changed, and not for the best.

>
>
> >The basic problem is the inability to identify the mental disease called
> >insanity, i.e. a distortion of thinking that is acquired by learning
> >and/or by a defect in brain chemistry . . .
>
> I do not think this can explain the present wave of terrorism. Millions of
> people support al Qaeda and bin Laden, and celebrated gleefully after the
> attack. In some nations, this was the norm. They cannot all be insane. That
> would stretch the definition of "insanity" or "pathology" to mean "anyone
> who hates anyone else" or "anyone who hates Americans."

I'm not saying that hate by itself is insanity.  Nor am I saying that the
excitement of the moment is insanity.  Most people who celebrated gleefully went
home and went about their normal lives, while being very sane, but still hating
Americans.  I'm saying that anyone who would express their hatred and glee by
killing at random is insane.  They are not fighters for a cause, they are not the
workers of God, they are not evil, they are not protecting their people, they are
insane.  They represent the fraction of all populations that suffer from this
problem.  In Hitler's Germany, they were the people who sent the Jews to their
deaths, in the US south, they would have been members of KKK.  Even today, such
people lurk in the background just waiting to demonstrate just how insane they
really are.  Some can not wait so they shoot up a church, a school or a business.

> That would make the
> Japanese insane from 1941 to August 1945, and miraculously cured by
> November 1945. They were not a bit crazy, except maybe a few at the top and
> the field officers who practiced cannibalism. No examination of their brain
> chemistry would have revealed a problem. People in private, at home, when
> not fighting the war were as sane as ever.

The people who took Japan into the war were clearly insane, as events have
demonstrated.  The sane part of the population had to go along, just as the sane
part of our society has to go along no matter how insane the policy.  Vietnam is a
good example.


>
>
> >The pathology is associated with self-delusion of various forms including
> >hate, very short term self-interest including excessive greed, and lack of
> >empathy for one's fellow man.
>
> These are normal human conditions, prevalent in all societies, and in other
> primates and most other species. You cannot change such basic human /
> primate nature. And yet without altering this nature we have changed
> society radically, many times, mostly in the right direction. We have
> suppressed or eliminated social ills such as slavery, child labor, extreme
> poverty and so on. We do not need to change human nature to achieve
> progress or insure a reasonable level of safety against terrorism. We do
> not need to fool with the Constitution. A society that survived the Civil
> War, the Great Depression and WWII can defeat terrorism too. People are
> tough and resourceful when the need arises.

I agree, we will survive in some form.  I also agree that insanity is part of the
human condition, with a certain fixed part of the population being affected at any
one time.  Estimates place this fraction at over 25%.  However, the disease is
mostly expressed in local ways such as wife beating, crime of various kinds, drug
use, acts of hatred and harm, poor parenting etc.  It is also well known that some
aspects of such behavior are passed down through the generations as dysfunctional
children.  The work of mental health professionals involves trying to undo this
damage, and raise the level of sanity.  In this sense, society does try to change
human nature.  The problem I see is that these aberrations are not recognized for
what they are, hence are not dealt with in an effective way.

>
>
> >It is apparent to any sane person that mankind is going more insane, with
> >many examples in business, governments, religion, and even at the family level.
>
> It doesn't seem worse to me than it ever did. I think you need to read more
> history to appreciate how insane things were during the 100 Years War, in
> 1860 in Virginia, 1938 in Russia, and everywhere in 1945. Business
> pathology and the Enron scandals are nothing compared to the scandals that
> led to the 1929 Wall Street crash or the Panic of 1907. Actually, this is a
> quiet moment in history.

I agree, insanity can be found at all times in history.  The difference between
then and now is that the insane have much more capability to destroy us all, or at
least make the lives of the sane increasingly unpleasant and hold back human
progress.  As we have seen in many countries, when the insane take control, the
country goes to Hell in a hurry.  I suggest this fact needs to be acknowledged and
precautions taken to prevent this from happening here, although it may be too late.

Ed


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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
&nbsp;
<p>Jed Rothwell wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Edmund Storms wrote:
<p>>All of the efforts at "homeland security" mean nothing except to keep
any
<br>>real defense from happening and to require the insane to be slightly
more
<br>>clever.
<p>Actually, some of the proposed rules for securing radioactive material
seem
<br>pretty good, and may reduce the threat significantly.</blockquote>
If all countries apply restrictions, this might help.&nbsp; However, I
have no hope this will be done in the poorest countries.&nbsp; Also. anyone
with a ordinary nuclear reactor can activate normal material with neutrons,
thereby making the raw material for a dirty bomb.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
<p>>In this case, after the panic will be too late.&nbsp; We have entered
a new
<br>>phase in human history, as many people have observed.
<p>This is not so new, or unprecedented. People have had the ability to
commit
<br>mass murder for a long time. Individual traders in the 18th and early
19th
<br>century killed millions of native Americans with germ warfare, selling
them
<br>blankets infected with smallpox.</blockquote>
This is perhaps insanity on the scale we will suffer in the future.&nbsp;
However, back then smallpox could be contained because the native Americans
were isolated.&nbsp; These days the disease would rapidly spread throughout
the world.&nbsp; I suggest, things have changed, and not for the best.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
<p>>The basic problem is the inability to identify the mental disease called
<br>>insanity, i.e. a distortion of thinking that is acquired by learning
<br>>and/or by a defect in brain chemistry . . .
<p>I do not think this can explain the present wave of terrorism. Millions
of
<br>people support al Qaeda and bin Laden, and celebrated gleefully after
the
<br>attack. In some nations, this was the norm. They cannot all be insane.
That
<br>would stretch the definition of "insanity" or "pathology" to mean "anyone
<br>who hates anyone else" or "anyone who hates Americans."</blockquote>
I'm not saying that hate by itself is insanity.&nbsp; Nor am I saying that
the excitement of the moment is insanity.&nbsp; Most people who celebrated
gleefully went home and went about their normal lives, while being very
sane, but still hating Americans.&nbsp; I'm saying that anyone who would
express their hatred and glee by killing at random is insane.&nbsp; They
are not fighters for a cause, they are not the workers of God, they are
not evil, they are not protecting their people, <u>they are insane</u>.&nbsp;
They represent the fraction of all populations that suffer from this problem.&nbsp;
In Hitler's Germany, they were the people who sent the Jews to their deaths,
in the US south, they would have been members of KKK.&nbsp; Even today,
such people lurk in the background just waiting to demonstrate just how
insane they really are.&nbsp; Some can not wait so they shoot up a church,
a school or a business.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>That would make the
<br>Japanese insane from 1941 to August 1945, and miraculously cured by
<br>November 1945. They were not a bit crazy, except maybe a few at the
top and
<br>the field officers who practiced cannibalism. No examination of their
brain
<br>chemistry would have revealed a problem. People in private, at home,
when
<br>not fighting the war were as sane as ever.</blockquote>
The people who took Japan into the war were clearly insane, as events have
demonstrated.&nbsp; The sane part of the population had to go along, just
as the sane part of our society has to go along no matter how insane the
policy.&nbsp; Vietnam is a good example.
<br>&nbsp;
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
<p>>The pathology is associated with self-delusion of various forms including
<br>>hate, very short term self-interest including excessive greed, and
lack of
<br>>empathy for one's fellow man.
<p>These are normal human conditions, prevalent in all societies, and in
other
<br>primates and most other species. You cannot change such basic human
/
<br>primate nature. And yet without altering this nature we have changed
<br>society radically, many times, mostly in the right direction. We have
<br>suppressed or eliminated social ills such as slavery, child labor,
extreme
<br>poverty and so on. We do not need to change human nature to achieve
<br>progress or insure a reasonable level of safety against terrorism.
We do
<br>not need to fool with the Constitution. A society that survived the
Civil
<br>War, the Great Depression and WWII can defeat terrorism too. People
are
<br>tough and resourceful when the need arises.</blockquote>
I agree, we will survive in some form.&nbsp; I also agree that insanity
is part of the human condition, with a certain fixed part of the population
being affected at any one time.&nbsp; Estimates place this fraction at
over 25%.&nbsp; However, the disease is mostly expressed in local ways
such as wife beating, crime of various kinds, drug use, acts of hatred
and harm, poor parenting etc.&nbsp; It is also well known that some aspects
of such behavior are passed down through the generations as dysfunctional
children.&nbsp; The work of mental health professionals involves trying
to undo this damage, and raise the level of sanity.&nbsp; In this sense,
society does try to change human nature.&nbsp; The problem I see is that
these aberrations are not recognized for what they are, hence are not dealt
with in an effective way.
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;
<p>>It is apparent to any sane person that mankind is going more insane,
with
<br>>many examples in business, governments, religion, and even at the
family level.
<p>It doesn't seem worse to me than it ever did. I think you need to read
more
<br>history to appreciate how insane things were during the 100 Years War,
in
<br>1860 in Virginia, 1938 in Russia, and everywhere in 1945. Business
<br>pathology and the Enron scandals are nothing compared to the scandals
that
<br>led to the 1929 Wall Street crash or the Panic of 1907. Actually, this
is a
<br>quiet moment in history.</blockquote>
I agree, insanity can be found at all times in history.&nbsp; The difference
between then and now is that the insane have much more capability to destroy
us all, or at least make the lives of the sane increasingly unpleasant
and hold back human progress.&nbsp; As we have seen in many countries,
when the insane take control, the country goes to Hell in a hurry.&nbsp;
I suggest this fact needs to be acknowledged and precautions taken to prevent
this from happening here, although it may be too late.
<p>Ed
<br>&nbsp;</html>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 11 22:55:19 2002
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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:00:03 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: UC Berkeley Researcher on Gravity Shielding
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At 9:46 AM 6/11/2, Erikbaard aol.com wrote:
>http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00032353-36AB-1CDC-B4A8809EC588EEDF
>&
>catID=2
>
>http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0204012


Thanks Erik for this posting.  I have intended to comment about this but
did not find the time to do so appropriately.

The subject article is about Chiao's experiment, which Hamdi Ucar has also
noted and for which Hamdi is gearing up to do a replication or something
similar.

The subject experiment is not so much about gravity shielding as it is
about gravity wave to electromagnetic wave conversion and vice versa.
Gravity shielding, as Podkletnov and others have proposed it, is in Chiao's
terms the ability to shield the static (electrogravitic) field (typically
associated with stationary mass or near stationary mass.)  Such shielding
may or may not be theoretically impossible, depending on the expert you
talk to, but such is outside the realm of Chiao's experiment, which deals
only with gravity waves, and these are radiative (graviton mediated) and
involve the gravitomagnetic force, which is the gravitational equivalent to
the Lorentz force.  The gravitomagnetic force pushes things sideways, in
apparent violation of Newton's laws, just like the Lorentz force (though
such a violation is resolved when a sytem-wide view is maintained.)
Unlike the electrogravitic field, the source of the gravitomagnetic field
can vary from negative to positive.  Magnetogravity is theoretically
manifested in this experiment only in very high frequency form, and is
carried by gravitons.  Attempts to build space drives from gravitons are
thwarted by the same huge energy to momentum ratio that photon rockets
require.  That ratio is c, the speed of light, a huge number.  It takes
vast amounts of power to produce small amounts of thrust by expelling
either photons or gravitons in rocket-like fashion.  The principle
practical application for gravity waves as discussed by Chiao would thus
appear to be in the communications arena.  Such aplication would be
extremely valuable, but does not lead to a space drive or heavy lifter.

Further, it appears Chiao is one of the experts who would say (see p. 12 of
his preprint) that, since only positive mass is available,  there is no
means available to shield electrogravity.  Magnetogravity can oscillate
positive to negative, while electrogravity, like that which holds us to the
earth, remains unidirectionally attractive.  Though not an expert, just an
amateur, I have some experimental and even some minor theoretical and
computational experience in this area, and would suggest there is a
potential flaw in this thinking.  Various metals and semiconductors conduct
via holes, not electrons.  They exhibit a negative Hall effect, yet the
force on current bends in wires is always outwards.  This creates a
paradox, involving wrong-way momentum, which quantum mechanics resolved by
showing that conduction band electrons, which simulate the hole effects in
hole conductors, actually do so by exhibiting negative mass.  This
demonstrated and well accepted existence of negative mass, at least
negative mass with respect to electro-momentum exchange, is to me a clear
indication that only hole conductors which also superconduct (e.g. zinc)
are candidates for effective electrogravity shields.  It further indicates
to me that the only remaining fundamental theoretical barrier to gravity
shielding does not exist.  It also indicates that most materials thus far
tested in the Podkletnov experiment (an experiment involving current in a
rotating superconductive wheel) are or were doomed to failure.  The key to
gravity shielding lies in achieving large hole current densities.  Use of a
rotating superconducting wheel is a good way to achieve this high current
density.

This is a stunning realization that I only just now reached.  I hope it is
correct.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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Subject: RE: Another Orgone experiment (human IR sense?)
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On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Keith -
>
> >That said, if you feel a radiated EM wave is responsible,
> >why not try staring at a large block of ice or dry ice and
> >see what happens?
>
> You see, this is why guys like us tend not to be married (or even have girlfriends).

I recommend staring at lots of expanses of bare skin and see if you can
separate the psychological response from any possible human IR sense.

:)

Does an actual 98.6 surface look different than a nude photograph? Flip
your sunglasses up and down while observing said bare skin and see what
happens.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

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On Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:42:32 -0700 (PDT), William Beaty
<billb eskimo.com> wrote:

>I wish I had one of those noncontact IR thermometers you stick in your
>ear.  Maybe the readings from that device would show that certain nearby
>clouds contain ice and others do not.  I could extend its range; I've
>heard that polyethelene makes a good longwave IR lens and is easy to grind
>with a sander and polish with a torch. Or instead use a flashlight
>reflector with a thermistor at the focus.  Make a bolometer.

Today I received a catalog from that epitome of scientific
instruments, Heartland America.   :)

On page 6A of the catalog, they have an "AimSHOT" thermal heat sensor
for $200.  "Finally ... a thermal heat sensor that's stable, accurate
and rugged enough for life in the great outdoors. ... Its IR and laser
technology pinpoint heat sources with unparalleled accuracy, while its
64 settings eliminate false readings.  When a heat source is detected,
Heat Seeker alerts you through a digital bar graph display and a tone
that you can hear through the earphone."

www.heartlandamerica.com

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 12 02:37:35 2002
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Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 04:35:13 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Yikes!
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>Ed Storms wrote;


>Mike, I agree, people can use the idea of insanity in insane ways.  Also,
>insane people always think they are sane. However, basic norms of human
>behavior have always been applied to actions.  Religion was once the basis for
>defining these norms,

It still is, you may think that Muslim fundamentalists are insane, or 
irreligious, but they are giving glory to their God.

>  however imperfect this effort might have been.
>Unfortunately, religion is losing its effectiveness world-wide.   Of course,
>this problem is not new.  Religion has always been imperfect and 
>used by insane
>people for their own ends.

They live under a system of enforced morality and they think that all 
of us are using drugs, watching pornography and other things which 
are offensive to their moral code. They also have an agenda of 
bringing the entire world under Islam.

>   I'm only suggesting that people who deviate from
>accepted norms of behavior need to be understood in a way that allows their
>behavior to be changed or at least understood in the correct 
>context.  The idea
>of evil, the idea of being a "freedom fighter", the idea of being an agent of
>Allah/God are no longer appropriate to explain the abnormal and destructive
>behavior now being witnessed.

That's because you don't understand the underlying mechanisms that 
are at work here Ed. There are two super human beings battling it out 
for the title of King of the Universe, HaShem and HaSatan. The 
Muslims are, by in large the children of Esau, the father of the 
nation of Edom who was passed over for the blessing. We are the 
children of Jacob later Israel who got the blessing. Edomites are 
upset about this and decided to follow a being who promised them that 
if they followed him, he would correct this situation. The prophecy 
says that the Children of Israel will destroy Edom. Their country 
will burn like fire through a stubble field. People are already 
talking on conservative radio about this being the only solution to 
the Muslim problem. I assume that it will take an event, like their 
crossing the nuclear thresh hold, to polarize American and Britain 
(Joseph) into doing this,

>  Even if I grant that various social and
>political outrages exist and even if I admit that people have been 
>treated very
>unfairly, the type of action used in response to these outrages will determine
>the situation after the outrages are eliminated.  If the response is based on
>insanity,

It only appears to be insanity because you don't understand it.

>the consequences will not be in the best interest of the person or
>society who seek a solution.  For example, I offer the Israel-Palestine
conflict as being an example of both parties acting in an insane way.

This would be the result with out divine intervention.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 12 06:12:58 2002
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Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 06:09:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: snowflakes
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--- Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:
> thomas malloy wrote:
> 
> >>I doubt that scientists before 1900 realized flakes were complex.
> They 
> >>may have thought of them as simple, uniform and without structure,
> the 
> >>way Richard Blue used to characterize palladium, and the way most
> people 
> >>think of liquid water, even now.
> >Ah, this is much better than arguing about the Correa's research.
> 

Jed:

Drat...  Shot down by my own family!   The mug  is not in the Washausen
folks.  It is sitting on a shelf in Lansing.  With the Eggert bunch. 
Dated 1791  That is only a couple thousand years error.




=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 12 07:28:58 2002
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: snowflakes
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Charles Ford wrote:

>Drat...  Shot down by my own family!   The mug  is not in the Washausen 
>folks.  It is sitting on a shelf in Lansing.  With the Eggert bunch. Dated 1791

I expect people had looked at snowflakes with microscopes by then. Bentley 
received many orders for copies of his photos from companies making china, 
doilies and other woven patterns. They incorporated snowflake patterns in 
their designs. I wonder if designers today might be inspired weave patterns 
based on DNA x-ray crystallography, Hubble photographs, or some other 
recently discovered pattern in nature.

Discoveries should inspire new art. From my point of view, the 
impressionist revolution in painting was triggered by three technical 
breakthroughs: photography, synthetic pigments from coal tar and other 
chemicals, and ready made paint with the consistency of paste instead of 
cooking oil. This allowed artists to paint outdoors, on location, instead 
of in a studio. This made their work more realistic -- more direct and raw, 
you might say. It was similar to the effect of the low-cost, hand-held 
video camera on television and movie drama circa 1980. It was 
state-of-the-art high technology, and it looked that way to people in 1860. 
To us, it looks quaint.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 12 07:31:01 2002
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Subject: Re: Thunderstorm emissions
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William Beaty wrote:

>I wish I had one of those noncontact IR thermometers you stick in your
>ear.

They have come way down in price. The other day I saw some on sale at the 
drugstore for $30 or $40, I think. People with babies & small children 
should buy one, or a digital thermistor built into a pacifier.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 12 07:39:01 2002
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I also received an email from robert natvita.co.nz , some mp3 file 40kb.
I checked on the domain and it had contact info, I rang him and he was aware of
the virus and was getting rid of it.
But what kind of virus sends such varied files, still he didn't sound the the kind
of person sending malicious attachments.

Terry Blanton wrote:

> Jed Rothwell wrote:
>
> > Doug Marett wrote:
> >
> >> I got hit by the same virus on the morning of June 8th, subject:
> >> "Re: Reich electroscopic anomaly - typo correction"
> >>
> >> The virus dropped two trojan horse packages into my computer which I
> >> then had to destroy. . . .
> >
> >
> > I do not understand. I do not know much about viruses. Please clarify.
> >
> > Do you mean this message came to you directly, via personal e-mail? Or
> > was it distributed via Vortex-l?
>
> I received a virus from a direct email from "Robert" <no last name>,
> with email address robert natvita.co.nz.  This message had a vortex
> subject line, "Re: Re: Another Orgone Experiment (human IR sense)."  The
> virus (actually a worm) was detected as W32/BADTRANS MM which is
> described at:
>
> http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.badtrans.b mm.html
>
> Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 12 08:43:59 2002
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Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:48:05 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------3F115C5DCA50752AEB74B88A
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I want to apologize to those of you who recognize that this thread is off-topic
and is a subject about which you could care less.  Occasionally, I get the urge to
look at a bigger picture and you all are the recipients of that urge.  This won't
last much longer, so please be patient.

Ed

thomas malloy wrote:

> >Ed Storms wrote;
>
> >Mike, I agree, people can use the idea of insanity in insane ways.  Also,
> >insane people always think they are sane. However, basic norms of human
> >behavior have always been applied to actions.  Religion was once the basis for
> >defining these norms,
>
> It still is, you may think that Muslim fundamentalists are insane, or
> irreligious, but they are giving glory to their God.

Yes, that is what they believe.  They define a god that justifies their
pathology.  The question then is, "how does the real GOD want humans to behave?
Even a casual study of all religions shows that they agree on behavior that does
not include the behavior of people who engage in the terrorists acts.  Even most
Muslim fundamentalists are appalled at what these people are doing.  Christians
have also had their problems with insane people redefining Christianity in ways
that fit their pathology.  These redefinition do not last long and are used later
to show how "evil" operates when people leave the main religion.

>
>
> >  however imperfect this effort might have been.
> >Unfortunately, religion is losing its effectiveness world-wide.   Of course,
> >this problem is not new.  Religion has always been imperfect and
> >used by insane
> >people for their own ends.
>
> They live under a system of enforced morality and they think that all
> of us are using drugs, watching pornography and other things which
> are offensive to their moral code. They also have an agenda of
> bringing the entire world under Islam.

I agree, this is their belief.  In some respects, their criticisms of our
lifestyle is accurate.  However, only the insane would think that killing us in
random acts would change our behavior or cause the world to welcome Islam.

>
>
> >   I'm only suggesting that people who deviate from
> >accepted norms of behavior need to be understood in a way that allows their
> >behavior to be changed or at least understood in the correct
> >context.  The idea
> >of evil, the idea of being a "freedom fighter", the idea of being an agent of
> >Allah/God are no longer appropriate to explain the abnormal and destructive
> >behavior now being witnessed.
>
> That's because you don't understand the underlying mechanisms that
> are at work here Ed. There are two super human beings battling it out
> for the title of King of the Universe, HaShem and HaSatan. The
> Muslims are, by in large the children of Esau, the father of the
> nation of Edom who was passed over for the blessing. We are the
> children of Jacob later Israel who got the blessing. Edomites are
> upset about this and decided to follow a being who promised them that
> if they followed him, he would correct this situation. The prophecy
> says that the Children of Israel will destroy Edom. Their country
> will burn like fire through a stubble field. People are already
> talking on conservative radio about this being the only solution to
> the Muslim problem. I assume that it will take an event, like their
> crossing the nuclear thresh hold, to polarize American and Britain
> (Joseph) into doing this,

What you describe is a myth believed by some Christians.  It provides an
explanation only for that group of people.  However, it does give people who
believe they are the chosen ones of God (children of Jacob) permission to destroy
the rejected children (children of Esau).  In other words this is another
redefinition of how God wants people to act so as to justify an insane pathology.
The basic idea behind all religions is "love your neighbor and treat others as you
want them to treat you", in the words of the Bible.  In addition, basic religion
teaches that we all are equal in the eyes of God, we all are made in the image of
God, and we all will answer to the same God.  Where does this myth fit into these
basic ideas that come from all religions, including Islam and Christianity?

>
>
> >  Even if I grant that various social and
> >political outrages exist and even if I admit that people have been
> >treated very
> >unfairly, the type of action used in response to these outrages will determine
> >the situation after the outrages are eliminated.  If the response is based on
> >insanity,
>
> It only appears to be insanity because you don't understand it.

Tom, this is rather like a person, who hears voices urging killing, saying that
you do not understand because you do not hear the voices.  Would you accept this
as justification if the person killed someone you loved?  There is no
justification, in religion or in the sane world, to justify such behavior. Trying
to justify such actions using myths or a redefined god only leads to disaster.  If
history and religion teach us anything, this is the most important lesson.

>
>
> >the consequences will not be in the best interest of the person or
> >society who seek a solution.  For example, I offer the Israel-Palestine
> conflict as being an example of both parties acting in an insane way.
>
> This would be the result with out divine intervention.

Well, we shall see if the divine will intervene, as you hope and predict, or if
the divine will once again allow insane action to produce its own reward.

Ed


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n:Storms;Edmnund 
tel;work:505 988 3673
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--------------3F115C5DCA50752AEB74B88A--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 12 09:20:15 2002
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Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:17:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Patrick Dowland <patrick_dowland yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Reich's electroscopic anomaly
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Marett wrote:

>     Your Huckleberry Finn impression was much more entertaining; your
> Paulo
> Correa impression on the other hand is a little too authentic to not be
> real... the mask drops!

Boy, have you got the wrong number!  By that same reasoning I would have
to conclude that you are Jessie Helms.  You really have to put on this 
whole coutry-fair circus production just to cover up the fact that you 
can't give straight answers to a few straight questions?  No, I am not
Correa, and I wouldn't know Correa from Adam.  And if you don't like 
my name, then that's just too bad, cause it's the only one I've got.


Cheers,

Patrick

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 12 10:12:32 2002
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John Berry wrote:

>I also received an email from robert natvita.co.nz , some mp3 file 40kb.
>I checked on the domain and it had contact info, I rang him and he was aware of
>the virus and was getting rid of it.
>But what kind of virus sends such varied files, still he didn't sound the the kind
>of person sending malicious attachments.
>

He was likely unaware that his computer was doing this . . . that is 
what a worm does; it steals your address book and mails itself to all 
entries.  

This is one reason that I use Netscape as my browser.  It comes with 
Mozilla email which is not targeted by many worms, unlike MS Outlook.  I 
also have IE because some web sites are written for IE only.

Terry


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 12 10:19:42 2002
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Patrick Dowland wrote:

>Marett wrote:
>
>>    Your Huckleberry Finn impression was much more entertaining; your
>>Paulo
>>Correa impression on the other hand is a little too authentic to not be
>>real... the mask drops!
>>
>
>Boy, have you got the wrong number!  By that same reasoning I would have
>to conclude that you are Jessie Helms.  
>

Nope, he couldn't be Jesse.  Helms is still in the hospital getting his 
pighead, er, pig valve replaced:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,54594,00.html

<g>

Terry


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Are there any heat sensors out there that can be set to detect cold spots as
well?  It seems to me that this would be an invaluable tool for testing an
Adams-type motor or some of the vortex devices, which display a heat drop
instead of a heat rise.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: Thunderstorm emissions


> William Beaty wrote:
>
> >I wish I had one of those noncontact IR thermometers you stick in your
> >ear.
>
> They have come way down in price. The other day I saw some on sale at the
> drugstore for $30 or $40, I think. People with babies & small children
> should buy one, or a digital thermistor built into a pacifier.
>
> - Jed
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 12 11:43:36 2002
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Subject: Re: Reductionists versus people who make things more complicated
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In my opinion, Godel is another example of people who have made things more
complicated, by showing and really clearly defining the 'wall of stagnation'
that one hits when they refuse to look outside their specific discipline in
order to find (a bit more of) an answer to an anomaly found within that same
field.  Does anyone have references to literature that talks about how
people of his time reacted to Godel's theorem?


> The people who complicated things by finding protons and neutron
sub-atomic
> particles quickly won the Nobel prize, but most of the time the
> "complicators" meet with resentment, because they make things harder. They
> ask more questions than they answer. They reveal new vistas of unexpected
> ignorance, instead of knowledge. The first person to show that atoms are
> not featureless and indivisible was S. A. Arrhenius, in 1884 with the
> theory of ionic disassociation. (Ions -- partial atoms -- were thought to
> be impossible.) He was rewarded with a swift kick in the butt, the lowest
> possible passing grade, banishment, and 19 years of ignominy. (See
> Beaudette, chapter 11, and especially p. 147 to see how this ties in
> directly with the history of CF). Once Arrhenius showed that atoms have
> structure and components, it became safe for others to investigate this
> topic. Progress and rewards came swiftly. Chadwick discovered the neutron
> in 1932 and got the Nobel for it in 1935.
>
> - Jed
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 12 12:02:11 2002
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Subject: War, wife beating etc. is normal primate behavior!
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I realize this is off topic, but as an amateur student of animal behavior I 
must say, I think Ed Storms is mistaken here. He wrote:

>The people who took Japan into the war were clearly insane, as events have 
>demonstrated.  The sane part of the population had to go along, just as 
>the sane part of our society has to go along . . .

Most people were thrilled to go along. People usually are. The Japanese 
people I know say the declaration of war was the most exiting moment of 
their lives, although touched with trepidation.

Male chimpanzees periodically gather and raid neighboring groups. (One or 
two females sometimes participate.) They cross territory boundaries and 
catch isolated members of their rival groups by surprise. They go on a 
rampage of torture, castration, murder and cannibalism. By every indication 
they have a wonderful time! They seem thrilled and delighted, like human 
soldiers after a battlefield victory. This is healthy, normal behavior for 
most primates, including us.

As Hamlet said, primates are marvelous creatures: "in form and moving how 
express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension how 
like a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals!" Put the 
emphasis on "animals." We are aggressive predators, like lions or sharks. 
That is why they too are "express and admirable" in moving. Is there 
anything so beautiful and well coordinated as a cat running and pouncing? 
The aesthetic appeal is undeniable. We appreciate it because murdering 
other species (and members of our own species) is to us the highest form of 
art, the most exciting and divine act we are capable of, and the theme of 
our greatest literature and art, including "Hamlet." That play is about 
typical primate behavior. An alpha male murders his pack rival, takes the 
female, and tries to kill previous offspring. A lion would kill and eat the 
cubs. Only a fool would pretend that people are harmless, friendly, Walt 
Disney characters. You can deal with lions safely in a zoo or nature 
preserve, but not if you think predatory behavior is abnormal, unexpected 
or perverted.


>I agree, we will survive in some form.  I also agree that insanity is part 
>of the human condition, with a certain fixed part of the population being 
>affected at any one time.  Estimates place this fraction at over 
>25%.  However, the disease is mostly expressed in local ways such as wife 
>beating, crime of various kinds . . .

Wife beating, murder and war are NOT insane. Defining normal behavior as 
"sick," "insane," pathological or unnatural is the wrong way to deal with 
it. You cannot eliminate it by pretending it does not occur in healthy 
specimens. Nature programmed us to act this way. We can "overrule" this 
programming in a sense. We can control normal but undesirable human 
behavior with appropriate institutions and machines. Some Victorians tried 
to control sex by declaring it unnatural or beneath their dignity. They 
ended up being obsessed with the behavior instead of suppressing it. The 
Catholic Church has the same problem today.

We must harness nature, and go along with it, just as we did when we 
domesticated wolves. Normally, wolves will bite people and eat small 
children. By careful training and breeding over centuries they can be made 
into domesticated dogs. Man is himself a domesticated animal, and standard 
domestication techniques are the means of controlling unwanted behaviors. 
We must start by learning what is normal and why it occurs. We must be 
objective and pragmatic, putting aside our feelings of revulsion, 
suspending moral judgement. We do not condemn lions or chimpanzees for 
predation, and we should not condemn man either. On the other hand, we do 
not let lions eat us!

Take wife beating, for example. As far as I know, it is common in all human 
societies and among larger primates such as chimpanzees. (But not bonobos.) 
How do you eliminate it? Not by pretending it is a disease, but by simple, 
commonsense methods. You remove the stimulus. You take away the target. You 
empower women, giving them effective means to fight back or flee and 
survive on their own. This works perfectly well with chimpanzees in zoos, 
too. Female chimpanzees do not like being beaten anymore than female humans 
do. When you give the female chimpanzees a means of escape -- a sanctuary 
-- they take advantage of it. This is "unnatural" in a sense; there are few 
sanctuaries in rain forests. But it does not try to override or outwit 
nature. We harness normal female behavior to avoid triggering normal but 
undesirable male aggression.

War and other social scourges have been largely eliminated in many parts of 
the world. It is very unlikely that Georgia will again declare war on the 
U.S. and invade Pennsylvania. Japan will not likely attack the U.S. or 
anyone else. This change was brought about by simple, effective, well 
understood means: mainly political democracy. Despite their aggressive 
instincts, most people are smart enough to choose peace when they are 
placed in charge of their own government. In 1860, Georgia went to war 
because it was not a democratic society. It was a dictatorship of dominant 
males, very similar to a warring chimpanzee troop. If black citizens and 
women had been allowed to vote, they would have opposed succession and 
supported emancipation, just as the voters in the North did. There would 
have been no disagreement and no war.

There is no reason why other societies will not all, eventually, adapt 
democracy in various forms. I have no doubt this will eliminate large scale 
organized wars between nations. (Not terrorism, but that can be suppressed 
by other means.) It worked for us, Japan, Taiwan and many others. It will 
work for all nations. The majority of people everywhere want it, and will 
demand it, because people are not fools. In Iran -- supposedly our bitter 
enemy and a member of the "axis of evil" -- thousand march in candlelight 
vigils mourning the attack on the World Trade Center and supporting 
democracy. (They have partial democracy in Iran already, way ahead of Iraq 
or Saudi Arabia.) The Iranian dictators have outlawed these gatherings and 
forbidden news or discussion of them, but such suppression is futile in the 
age of satellite broadcasting and the Internet.

U.S. military power cannot stop terrorism, but moral and financial support 
for education, democracy, science, equality and progress can and will. It 
may happen as quickly as the cold war was won, in less than a century. We 
may avoid a large scale catastrophe such as a nuclear bomb. Nothing is 
certain, but we have free will. We can choose our destiny. That too is our 
primate nature.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 12 12:13:21 2002
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Subject: RE: Equipment and suggestions needed for gravity wave experiment
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Hi Hamdi.

>This is true if the effect I am looking for persist during sweep time of
the analyzer.
>Otherwise, If effect show up in transients, may only real-time spectrum
analyzers
>can catch it. So Scope would be more convenient.

OK, but I'm not sure why you think the results would be transient. By that,
do you mean that after several cycles of the incident GHz radiation that a
steady
state would be reached and the gravitational radiation would stop?
If you accept Podkletnov's results as true, it would seem not
to be the case. I don't get that from my first read of Chiao's paper either,
but of course I could well be wrong.

Also, it would seem essential to have a quadrapolar CW radiation source
to generate the gravity waves, which themselves are expected to be
quadrapolar.

>If I can spend a fortune, I can get a TEK 6604 6 GHz scope with 20 Giga
samples/seconds, amazing!

Wow. That's a fast scope.

>Of Course I am planning to use diode detectors to detect existence of em
wave generated by YBCO disk,
>but still I think I need a good scope to not miss short lived events.
Actually, seeing
>0.5 to 1ns duration events would be enough, because and E.M. exitation
inside reflecting
>walls of and metal encosure will live at least 1ns in my experiment despite
the actual pulse could be >shorter.

I've measured delay times down to about 100ps using that scope, but it
wasn't
what you'd call precision measurement. Resolving something with structure
in the ns region would be difficult but not impossible. Certainly it was
easy to measure delay times in that region pretty accurately. One thing
about the brighteye, it helps a lot for seeing transients but you still need
a rep rate of say 60Hz to sit there and make measurements. It's not a
storage scope. "God" made digital scopes for single shot (grin).

As the theory proposed by Chiao suggests that there is a direct coupling
between EM and gravity, perhaps you should consider pulse type experiments
rather than continuous wave. Sort of like what Podkletnov is doing now.
As a pulse would excite a variety of modes you could avoid the sweep problem
mentioned earlier.

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 12 12:32:55 2002
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Thunderstorm emissions
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On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Ryan Hopkins wrote:

> Are there any heat sensors out there that can be set to detect cold spots as
> well?

Depends on what the range of those IR thermomenters is.  If they can read
temperature, MAYBE they can read temperatures below ambient.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

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Dear Jed,
I have to admit that you are basically correct about human behavior.  We are a
violent, selfish, short-sighted, cruel member of the animal kingdom.  At the
same time, we try to improve our limitations and behavior by adopting norms of
behavior that have a long-term benefit beyond our personal imperfections.
These obvious good behaviors are only adopted by many people when they can be
said to come from God, so religion is used to promote these behaviors.   When
our actions exceed these norms, various ways are used to explain this
digression including the action of evil, the will of God, the demands of the
moment, or just weakness.  I'm only suggesting that when the actions are too
far out of line, the idea of insanity should be given more emphasis.  After
all, we have many examples of how admittedly insane people behave.  Is it not
reasonable to propose that this mental disease can also have less dramatic
effects that might be excused in other ways, thereby preventing a proper
response?  Many people have gotten away with outrageous behavior in the past
in the name of Christianity.  Now the same thing is happening in the name of
Islam.  I suggest that God has not changed its mind, but some men have gone
insane and they happen to be Moslem this time.  Of course, we can look back in
history and see similar patterns of behavior, which also suggest insanity as
the root cause.  Once the problem is identified, I suggest a solution is
easier to apply.  The present attitude does not seem to give a very good
solution.

Ed



Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I realize this is off topic, but as an amateur student of animal behavior I
> must say, I think Ed Storms is mistaken here. He wrote:
>
> >The people who took Japan into the war were clearly insane, as events have
> >demonstrated.  The sane part of the population had to go along, just as
> >the sane part of our society has to go along . . .
>
> Most people were thrilled to go along. People usually are. The Japanese
> people I know say the declaration of war was the most exiting moment of
> their lives, although touched with trepidation.
>
> Male chimpanzees periodically gather and raid neighboring groups. (One or
> two females sometimes participate.) They cross territory boundaries and
> catch isolated members of their rival groups by surprise. They go on a
> rampage of torture, castration, murder and cannibalism. By every indication
> they have a wonderful time! They seem thrilled and delighted, like human
> soldiers after a battlefield victory. This is healthy, normal behavior for
> most primates, including us.
>
> As Hamlet said, primates are marvelous creatures: "in form and moving how
> express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension how
> like a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals!" Put the
> emphasis on "animals." We are aggressive predators, like lions or sharks.
> That is why they too are "express and admirable" in moving. Is there
> anything so beautiful and well coordinated as a cat running and pouncing?
> The aesthetic appeal is undeniable. We appreciate it because murdering
> other species (and members of our own species) is to us the highest form of
> art, the most exciting and divine act we are capable of, and the theme of
> our greatest literature and art, including "Hamlet." That play is about
> typical primate behavior. An alpha male murders his pack rival, takes the
> female, and tries to kill previous offspring. A lion would kill and eat the
> cubs. Only a fool would pretend that people are harmless, friendly, Walt
> Disney characters. You can deal with lions safely in a zoo or nature
> preserve, but not if you think predatory behavior is abnormal, unexpected
> or perverted.
>
> >I agree, we will survive in some form.  I also agree that insanity is part
> >of the human condition, with a certain fixed part of the population being
> >affected at any one time.  Estimates place this fraction at over
> >25%.  However, the disease is mostly expressed in local ways such as wife
> >beating, crime of various kinds . . .
>
> Wife beating, murder and war are NOT insane. Defining normal behavior as
> "sick," "insane," pathological or unnatural is the wrong way to deal with
> it. You cannot eliminate it by pretending it does not occur in healthy
> specimens. Nature programmed us to act this way. We can "overrule" this
> programming in a sense. We can control normal but undesirable human
> behavior with appropriate institutions and machines. Some Victorians tried
> to control sex by declaring it unnatural or beneath their dignity. They
> ended up being obsessed with the behavior instead of suppressing it. The
> Catholic Church has the same problem today.
>
> We must harness nature, and go along with it, just as we did when we
> domesticated wolves. Normally, wolves will bite people and eat small
> children. By careful training and breeding over centuries they can be made
> into domesticated dogs. Man is himself a domesticated animal, and standard
> domestication techniques are the means of controlling unwanted behaviors.
> We must start by learning what is normal and why it occurs. We must be
> objective and pragmatic, putting aside our feelings of revulsion,
> suspending moral judgement. We do not condemn lions or chimpanzees for
> predation, and we should not condemn man either. On the other hand, we do
> not let lions eat us!
>
> Take wife beating, for example. As far as I know, it is common in all human
> societies and among larger primates such as chimpanzees. (But not bonobos.)
> How do you eliminate it? Not by pretending it is a disease, but by simple,
> commonsense methods. You remove the stimulus. You take away the target. You
> empower women, giving them effective means to fight back or flee and
> survive on their own. This works perfectly well with chimpanzees in zoos,
> too. Female chimpanzees do not like being beaten anymore than female humans
> do. When you give the female chimpanzees a means of escape -- a sanctuary
> -- they take advantage of it. This is "unnatural" in a sense; there are few
> sanctuaries in rain forests. But it does not try to override or outwit
> nature. We harness normal female behavior to avoid triggering normal but
> undesirable male aggression.
>
> War and other social scourges have been largely eliminated in many parts of
> the world. It is very unlikely that Georgia will again declare war on the
> U.S. and invade Pennsylvania. Japan will not likely attack the U.S. or
> anyone else. This change was brought about by simple, effective, well
> understood means: mainly political democracy. Despite their aggressive
> instincts, most people are smart enough to choose peace when they are
> placed in charge of their own government. In 1860, Georgia went to war
> because it was not a democratic society. It was a dictatorship of dominant
> males, very similar to a warring chimpanzee troop. If black citizens and
> women had been allowed to vote, they would have opposed succession and
> supported emancipation, just as the voters in the North did. There would
> have been no disagreement and no war.
>
> There is no reason why other societies will not all, eventually, adapt
> democracy in various forms. I have no doubt this will eliminate large scale
> organized wars between nations. (Not terrorism, but that can be suppressed
> by other means.) It worked for us, Japan, Taiwan and many others. It will
> work for all nations. The majority of people everywhere want it, and will
> demand it, because people are not fools. In Iran -- supposedly our bitter
> enemy and a member of the "axis of evil" -- thousand march in candlelight
> vigils mourning the attack on the World Trade Center and supporting
> democracy. (They have partial democracy in Iran already, way ahead of Iraq
> or Saudi Arabia.) The Iranian dictators have outlawed these gatherings and
> forbidden news or discussion of them, but such suppression is futile in the
> age of satellite broadcasting and the Internet.
>
> U.S. military power cannot stop terrorism, but moral and financial support
> for education, democracy, science, equality and progress can and will. It
> may happen as quickly as the cold war was won, in less than a century. We
> may avoid a large scale catastrophe such as a nuclear bomb. Nothing is
> certain, but we have free will. We can choose our destiny. That too is our
> primate nature.
>
> - Jed

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 12 12:50:20 2002
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: Human IR sense
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Now that I know what to look for, I *think* I'm "seeing" thermal IR all
over the place.  But I haven't tried blind testing, so it could all be
just a matter of suggestion.  Or maybe it's not IR at all.  ANYWAY...

I refuse to believe that I'm special.  If this is real, then nearly
everyone should have the sense.  The effect is very strong with small
thunderstorms, but it arises in a couple of other places too.

Look at the image in a mirror.  Now look at the image in a FRONT SURFACE
mirror.  Isn't the image in the FS mirror much more lively and deep,
somehow more "savory" than the image in a normal glass mirror?  I always
noticed this difference, but I put it down to psychological cues:  there
is a slight double image in normal mirrors, and this tells us that the
mirror image isn't real. We learn as children that the world in a mirror
is an illusion, and we also learn how to recognize mirrors (by the slight
reflection from the glass.)  Or so I always believed.

Af FS mirror is optically almost the same as a normal mirror, the main
difference is that a normal mirror has a slab of glass in front of the
metal.  Another difference:  metal is a very good reflector of thermal IR,
and it is a terrible emitter.  Silvered objects lose heat very slowly as
compared to other objects.  If humans have a crude thermal-IR sense, then
we would "see" a polished metal surface as having an entire 3D infrared
world inside.  The images in a FS mirror would look far more real because
they still have their IR cures.  But a standard mirror would "look"
somewhat fake, like a warm object with images made of visible light alone.

Is that why cats ignore mirrors?  Do they respond differently to FS
mirrors?


Another place where I think I see the effect:  when viewing the outside
world through a closed glass window, versus viewing the world directly.
While driving, if I look at things through the windshield, they lack some
"liveliness."   When I view things through the open dirver-side window,
the liveliness is restored.  I always knew this, but I put it down to the
slight mistiness of dirty windows, or to the reflections that cue us to
the existence of the glass.  But maybe it's caused by human IR sense.


One last musing:  if infants rely on a 98.6F "mommy detector", then one
way to silence a crying baby might be to provide him/her with a nearby
warm object.  If humans have an IR sense, then this warm object wouldn't
have to be in the crib, it only needs to be within view of the baby.
Product Idea!


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

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On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:08:03 -0400, Jed Rothwell
<jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

>William Beaty wrote:
>
>>I wish I had one of those noncontact IR thermometers you stick in your
>>ear.
>
>They have come way down in price. The other day I saw some on sale at the 
>drugstore for $30 or $40, I think. People with babies & small children 
>should buy one, or a digital thermistor built into a pacifier.

Those are wide-angle detectors.  Okay for measuring something within a
few inches and within the designed temperature range.

I have run across a few others that work within a few feet -- up to
20, as I recall -- but I can't recall where I saw them.  Radio Shack
.com??

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

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On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:48:05 -0600, Edmund Storms
<storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>thomas malloy wrote:
>
>> It still is, you may think that Muslim fundamentalists are insane, or
>> irreligious, but they are giving glory to their God.
>
>Yes, that is what they believe.  They define a god that justifies their
>pathology.  The question then is, "how does the real GOD want humans to behave?
>Even a casual study of all religions shows that they agree on behavior that does
>not include the behavior of people who engage in the terrorists acts.  Even most
>Muslim fundamentalists are appalled at what these people are doing. 

I wish I could agree with you on this point.  But if you look at
history, while most Christian conversions have been through the use of
missionaries (not always peaceful, and many times rather pedantic),
Muslim conversions almost always were through the use of the sword.
Indonesia, Pakistan and most African countries were converted to Islam
by killing those who wouldn't convert.  And ... this is what Mohammed
says to do in the Koran.


-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

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On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:08:30 -0400, Jed Rothwell
<jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

>In 1860, Georgia went to war 
>because it was not a democratic society. It was a dictatorship of dominant 
>males, very similar to a warring chimpanzee troop. If black citizens and 
>women had been allowed to vote, they would have opposed succession and 
>supported emancipation, just as the voters in the North did. There would 
>have been no disagreement and no war.

I find it hard to believe that you live in Atlanta and think the Civil
War had anything to do with slavery.  Emancipation of the slaves was a
political afterthought -- even by Lincoln.  The war was primarily
about economics, where the northern mills didn't want the southern
states to have their own cotton mills.  The southern states were to
grow cotton and ship it north.


-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

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Hi Ed and Tom.

Thomas writes:
> That's because you don't understand the underlying mechanisms that
> are at work here Ed. There are two super human beings battling it out
> for the title of King of the Universe, HaShem and HaSatan. The
> Muslims are, by in large the children of Esau, the father of the
> nation of Edom who was passed over for the blessing. We are the
> children of Jacob later Israel who got the blessing. Edomites are
> upset about this and decided to follow a being who promised them that
> if they followed him, he would correct this situation. The prophecy
> says that the Children of Israel will destroy Edom. Their country
> will burn like fire through a stubble field. People are already
> talking on conservative radio about this being the only solution to
> the Muslim problem. I assume that it will take an event, like their
> crossing the nuclear thresh hold, to polarize American and Britain
> (Joseph) into doing this,

Well Ed, here's your opportunity. It's maybe worth burning some bandwidth
to see if you can convince Thomas that he is being mislead here, using that
wonderful new evolutionary advantage, reason. Millions of years
of evolution have provided us with the basic instincts to survive,
VS about 50,000 years since the evolution of language and higher reasoning.
Hence the failure of reason in so many cases to resolve survival
issues amongst us primates. The recent spate of promotional activity
here on vortex is a good example of how to get primates to part
with their bananas, as it were (smile). Reason is an awfully poor
motivator, rhetoric and passion will always trump it. 

K.


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Edmund Storms wrote:

>I have to admit that you are basically correct about human behavior.  We 
>are a violent, selfish, short-sighted, cruel member of the animal kingdom.

And also, don't forget, we are the paragon of animals, noble in reason, 
infinite in faculties, in action like an angel, and in apprehension like a 
god. We are inseparably good & evil. I expect the other primates feel the 
same way about themselves. We would not be noble in reason or infinite in 
faculties if we were not also violent & cruel. As far as I know, high 
intelligence only emerges in predators, not herd animals or herbivores. Our 
predatory nature gave rise to intelligence, and then this intelligence in 
turn developed into empathy, love for other humans and even other species, 
and enlightened self-interest, which ultimately led us to "domesticate" 
ourselves, as it were. We have not quite finished that task. This is an 
interesting & profound paradox.


>I'm only suggesting that when the actions are too far out of line, the 
>idea of insanity should be given more emphasis.

Well, I suppose if we say this, it might inhibit harmful behavior. We might 
make some aggressive people embarrassed or afraid they are crazy. However, 
this diagnosis is a lie. It is simply not true that aggression, war and 
murder are insane.

It is a very bad idea to confuse insanity with healthy behavior. Medicine 
cannot cure people who are not sick. It is inappropriate and ineffective to 
treat normal behavior as if it were pathological. It is an abuse of 
medicine, like using Ritalin to suppress perfectly healthy childhood behavior.


>I suggest that God has not changed its mind, but some men have gone
>insane and they happen to be Moslem this time.  Of course, we can look 
>back in history and see similar patterns of behavior, which also suggest 
>insanity as the root cause.

I can't comment on theology, but similar patterns of behavior are so 
prevalent they are universal. War has been the normal state of affairs for 
at least five million years, since we separated from chimpanzees. Sanity 
and health are the root cause of war, not insanity. It is vibrant, 
predatory behavior, like cats catching mice.

That sounds a little like the German point of view from 1910 to 1945. "War 
is good for you," they said. "It promotes survival of the fittest, and 
wipes out unfit, sub-human races." There is a gigantic difference between 
me & and the Germans, though. They thought normal, Darwinian behavior is 
morally good, and desirable. I do not think it is good or bad. I do not 
make moral judgements about lions, chimpanzees, people, bacteria or any 
other species. However, war sure isn't desirable! It is too dangerous 
nowadays. We must eliminate it. And why shouldn't we? Why should we be 
prisoners of nature? But to transcend nature we must obey its every law -- 
another paradox. Francis Bacon said:

"For man, as the minister and interpreter of nature does, and understands, 
as much as he has observed of the order, operation, and mind of nature; and 
neither knows nor is able to do more. Neither is it possible for any power 
to loosen or burst the chain of causes, nor is nature to be overcome except 
by submission."

War may be healthy, but we often redirect, modify, block, or modify healthy 
behaviors for our own purposes. We train dogs to herd sheep and protect 
them instead of killing them. Dog herding looks to me exactly like the pack 
behavior wild dogs use to concentrate and kill herd animals. To take a more 
controversial example, we teach adolescents to dance, "make out" or 
masturbate instead of copulating. That sometimes works, and it causes 
little long-term harm. The Victorians tried to make them over into 
non-sexual beings, which cannot be done. You can only harness nature 
(including your own primate nature) by "submission"; you cannot deny it, or 
eliminate it.

As I said, I don't let lions eat me, even though it is perfectly natural to 
be eaten by lions. Defecating in the house is "perfectly natural" too, but 
we don't let domesticated dogs, cats or children do it. When toilet 
training a child you would not react to defecation as if it is a disease, 
or unnatural, or something that requires medical intervention. It is normal 
behavior that must be modified for our convenience and health. War is 
normal behavior that must be modified for our health too, but we can only 
modify it based on enlightened, informed knowledge of primate behavior. 
Appeals to morality and theology have made little progress. In the last 60 
years, war suddenly vanished from vast areas of earth where it was once 
endemic, such as Europe. I think we are doing something right, finally. It 
seems democracy works.

- Jed

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On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:48:49 -0700 (PDT), William Beaty
<billb eskimo.com> wrote:

>
>Now that I know what to look for, I *think* I'm "seeing" thermal IR all
>over the place.  But I haven't tried blind testing, so it could all be
>just a matter of suggestion.  Or maybe it's not IR at all.  ANYWAY...

All right!  Next step ... auras.


-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

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"Dean T. Miller" wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:48:05 -0600, Edmund Storms
> <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >thomas malloy wrote:
> >
> >> It still is, you may think that Muslim fundamentalists are insane, or
> >> irreligious, but they are giving glory to their God.
> >
> >Yes, that is what they believe.  They define a god that justifies their
> >pathology.  The question then is, "how does the real GOD want humans to behave?
> >Even a casual study of all religions shows that they agree on behavior that does
> >not include the behavior of people who engage in the terrorists acts.  Even most
> >Muslim fundamentalists are appalled at what these people are doing.
>
> I wish I could agree with you on this point.  But if you look at
> history, while most Christian conversions have been through the use of
> missionaries (not always peaceful, and many times rather pedantic),
> Muslim conversions almost always were through the use of the sword.
> Indonesia, Pakistan and most African countries were converted to Islam
> by killing those who wouldn't convert.  And ... this is what Mohammed
> says to do in the Koran.

I must point out that Islam is now the fastest growing religion and this is not
being done using the sword.  In addition, while you acknowledge the missionaries
were sometimes not peaceful, I suggest this ignores the bigger picture. It was not
just the missionaries that attempted to spread Christianity.  The solders of Spain
killed the native population in the New World because they would not convert to
Catholicism and the US soldiers killed the heathen American Indians unless they
converted.  These are two of many examples of Christianity using the sword.  Of
course, an economic factor also played a role.  Also, I admit that Islam tends to
created more emotion with respect to following their view of God's law than
Christians apply to following their version.  This factor sometime generates
excesses and abortions in behavior.  In spite of this, I strongly suggest, Dean,
that you put the conflict into perspective and not blame Islam in general for what
is happening.

Ed

>
>
> -- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 12 19:34:46 2002
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Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:34:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Thunderstorm emissions
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--- Ryan Hopkins <thebishop usadatanet.net> wrote:
> Are there any heat sensors out there that can be set to detect cold
> spots as
> well?  It seems to me that this would be an invaluable tool for testing
> an
> Adams-type motor or some of the vortex devices, which display a heat
> drop
> instead of a heat rise.
> 
This type of testing is usually done with something like the Fluke Hydra.
 This is a 16 input soft automated thermometer. (via serial or GPIB) 
This way exact temperature measurements can be made simultaneous and
timed testing can be totally automated.

A target thermometer like yall have been talking about is handy for
measuring the temperature of things you can't touch. However.  Some
surfaces do not measure correctly.

The really spiffy solution for the lazy man would be a thermal imager. 
For about a couple thousand bucks you can get one that works well and has
relatively good resolution.




=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 12 19:36:01 2002
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Human IR sense
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On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Dean T. Miller wrote:

> >Now that I know what to look for, I *think* I'm "seeing" thermal IR all
> >over the place.  But I haven't tried blind testing, so it could all be
> >just a matter of suggestion.  Or maybe it's not IR at all.  ANYWAY...
>
>
> All right!  Next step ... auras.


Is this the stigmatize-and-dismiss tactic of the Scoffer?   It looks just
like it to me.

I'd imagine that those who do alt-science wouldn't want to use
stigmatization under any circumstances.



Has ANYONE here picked up a glass plate and looked for differences in
visual perception of the outside world with and without the plate?  No
"weird thunderstorm" is required; just go outside on a sunny day and look
around.

A human IR sense certainly isn't as earth-shattering a discovery as
pitchblende ore fogging film.  However, if someone in 1900 said "put
uranium ore on a film plate and see what happens," what should be our
response?  Stigmatize the claimed persistant uranium emissions with the
name "perpetual motion?"  Or instead should we actually go get a hunk of
pitchblende and camera film, and see if film-fogging occurs as described?

The glass plate is far simpler an experiment.   Unfortunately the effect
is detected with human perception rather than via objective changes in
matter.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 12 20:00:35 2002
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Subject: RE: Human IR sense
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Hi Bill..


You write:
>Is this the stigmatize-and-dismiss tactic of the Scoffer?   It looks just
>like it to me.

Nah, I think it's a good idea. If you can "see" IR then perhaps
your vision is good enough to resolve heat features on a body,
an "aura" if you will. You know, someone tried selling a shirt
made of that temp sensitive polymer, the kind they made mood rings
from (chuckle). It failed, in that most remarkable and perverse
way, by succeeding. The shirt really did show every part
of your body and how hot it was, with bright colors. Like an
octopus, you know? Consequently, no-one would wear it. 

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 10:33 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Human IR sense


On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Dean T. Miller wrote:

> >Now that I know what to look for, I *think* I'm "seeing" thermal IR all
> >over the place.  But I haven't tried blind testing, so it could all be
> >just a matter of suggestion.  Or maybe it's not IR at all.  ANYWAY...
>
>
> All right!  Next step ... auras.


Is this the stigmatize-and-dismiss tactic of the Scoffer?   It looks just
like it to me.

I'd imagine that those who do alt-science wouldn't want to use
stigmatization under any circumstances.



Has ANYONE here picked up a glass plate and looked for differences in
visual perception of the outside world with and without the plate?  No
"weird thunderstorm" is required; just go outside on a sunny day and look
around.

A human IR sense certainly isn't as earth-shattering a discovery as
pitchblende ore fogging film.  However, if someone in 1900 said "put
uranium ore on a film plate and see what happens," what should be our
response?  Stigmatize the claimed persistant uranium emissions with the
name "perpetual motion?"  Or instead should we actually go get a hunk of
pitchblende and camera film, and see if film-fogging occurs as described?

The glass plate is far simpler an experiment.   Unfortunately the effect
is detected with human perception rather than via objective changes in
matter.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 12 21:04:12 2002
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On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:33:06 -0700 (PDT), William Beaty
<billb eskimo.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Dean T. Miller wrote:
>
>> >Now that I know what to look for, I *think* I'm "seeing" thermal IR all
>> >over the place.  But I haven't tried blind testing, so it could all be
>> >just a matter of suggestion.  Or maybe it's not IR at all.  ANYWAY...
>>
>>
>> All right!  Next step ... auras.
>
>
>Is this the stigmatize-and-dismiss tactic of the Scoffer?   It looks just
>like it to me.

Absolutely not!!  Some MDs have reported being able to "see" what they
call auras on and around people (and other things), and use what they
"see" to help them diagnose their patients.  It occurred to me that
may be what you're sensing, but haven't practiced enough to recognize
an ability in that direction.

>I'd imagine that those who do alt-science wouldn't want to use
>stigmatization under any circumstances.

I'm sorry my message came across that way.


-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 12 21:18:00 2002
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On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Keith Nagel wrote:

> You write:
> >Is this the stigmatize-and-dismiss tactic of the Scoffer?   It looks just
> >like it to me.
>
> Nah, I think it's a good idea.

Well, thermal plumes are visible with good thermographic cameras.   The
"auras" claimed by psychics have nothing to do with these.  He didn't say
"hot air plume."   The word "aura" doesn't mean "heat plume,"  it means
"energy field seen by psychics."   But maybe Mr. Miller believes in auras,
and his statement is honest rather than scoffing.



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William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
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On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Dean T. Miller wrote:

> >Is this the stigmatize-and-dismiss tactic of the Scoffer?   It looks just
> >like it to me.
>
> Absolutely not!!  Some MDs have reported being able to "see" what they
> call auras on and around people (and other things), and use what they
> "see" to help them diagnose their patients.  It occurred to me that
> may be what you're sensing, but haven't practiced enough to recognize
> an ability in that direction.

My mistake!

So, I wonder if a person who claims to have aura-vision will become
aura-blinded when holding a plate of glass up to their face?

I should get off my butt and try metal screen, plexiglass, saran wrap,
etc.



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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >I have to admit that you are basically correct about human behavior.  We
> >are a violent, selfish, short-sighted, cruel member of the animal kingdom.
>
> And also, don't forget, we are the paragon of animals, noble in reason,
> infinite in faculties, in action like an angel, and in apprehension like a
> god. We are inseparably good & evil. I expect the other primates feel the
> same way about themselves. We would not be noble in reason or infinite in
> faculties if we were not also violent & cruel.

Yes, this is how we view ourselves and this attitude is consistent with our
actions.

> As far as I know, high
> intelligence only emerges in predators, not herd animals or herbivores.

This is an assumption.  Nevertheless, very few predators hunt and kill their own
on the scale we humans find necessary.  Predators protect their food supply, as
they must, but they do not make a sport of attacking their neighbors.  We, as a
predator specie, engage in behavior that has no relationship to protecting what
we need or is even consistent with our long-term survival.  What would make a
predator behave in such a self-destructive way?

> Our
> predatory nature gave rise to intelligence, and then this intelligence in
> turn developed into empathy, love for other humans and even other species,
> and enlightened self-interest, which ultimately led us to "domesticate"
> ourselves, as it were. We have not quite finished that task. This is an
> interesting & profound paradox.

I suggest only very few of humans are "domesticated".  The rest are easily led,
ignorant of basic truths, blinded by myths, and deluded by thinking themselves as
being favored by God.   Because a few people exceed these limitations, they are
held up as examples we all are encouraged to follow.  Following such people is a
worthy goal, but most people do not follow these examples.  Instead, they avoid
doing that which will get them into trouble rather than trying to find the path
to enlightenment.  I suggest, no paradox exists.  Most people are insane in
various ways, i.e. they are not in contact with reality, but only aware of a very
small and distorted part of reality.  If you went back in time 200 years, the
distortions believed by most people would be obvious.  These distortions are no
less today, and they will be easily visible to generations 200 years from now.  I
only ask the question, why do these distortions exist?  Of course, ignorance
plays a role.  But, that is not the only explanation because even the educated
tend to believe what they want to believe, which frequently seems insane in its
application.

>
>
> >I'm only suggesting that when the actions are too far out of line, the
> >idea of insanity should be given more emphasis.
>
> Well, I suppose if we say this, it might inhibit harmful behavior. We might
> make some aggressive people embarrassed or afraid they are crazy. However,
> this diagnosis is a lie. It is simply not true that aggression, war and
> murder are insane.

No, the advantage of such an understanding goes beyond embarrassment.  This is
like saying embarrassment would cause a person with AIDS to get well.  Until we
recognize that aggression, war, and murder are irrational acts caused by a brain
dysfunction, they will continue to be tolerated because the cure will never be
applied.

>
>
> It is a very bad idea to confuse insanity with healthy behavior. Medicine
> cannot cure people who are not sick. It is inappropriate and ineffective to
> treat normal behavior as if it were pathological. It is an abuse of
> medicine, like using Ritalin to suppress perfectly healthy childhood behavior.

I remind you that in the past, physical disease was considered to be the work of
the devil.  Until the actual cause was identified, cure was very difficult.   At
one time it was considered normal to die at 40 years.  When the cause of early
death was understood, life now extends to beyond 70 years. I'm suggesting a
better understanding of behavior. I'm suggesting that some behavior is not normal
just because many people are so affected.  There is nothing normal about being
out of touch with reality, suffering from paranoia, believing that other people
and religions are less important in the eyes of God, and fouling our own nest in
the process of exercising personal greed.  As long as these behaviors are
considered normal, they will not change.

>
>
> >I suggest that God has not changed its mind, but some men have gone
> >insane and they happen to be Moslem this time.  Of course, we can look
> >back in history and see similar patterns of behavior, which also suggest
> >insanity as the root cause.
>
> I can't comment on theology, but similar patterns of behavior are so
> prevalent they are universal. War has been the normal state of affairs for
> at least five million years, since we separated from chimpanzees. Sanity
> and health are the root cause of war, not insanity. It is vibrant,
> predatory behavior, like cats catching mice.

Self protection is normal and protecting the source of life, both food and
family, is normal. Picking a fight because you do not like another person's
religion or appearance, or just to acquire power is not normal, although I admit,
is very common.  Most predators avoid a fight with their own kind, using instead
intimidation and agreed upon boundaries.  Fighting only weakens both parties.
Mankind is only gradually learning this lesson because the weapons are now able
to destroy everyone.   I predict that a time will come when creating a situation
that might lead to nuclear, biological or chemical exchange will be considered an
act of insanity.  This is almost the case now.  We just need to identify the
insane acts earlier in the process.

>
>
> That sounds a little like the German point of view from 1910 to 1945. "War
> is good for you," they said. "It promotes survival of the fittest, and
> wipes out unfit, sub-human races." There is a gigantic difference between
> me & and the Germans, though. They thought normal, Darwinian behavior is
> morally good, and desirable. I do not think it is good or bad. I do not
> make moral judgements about lions, chimpanzees, people, bacteria or any
> other species. However, war sure isn't desirable! It is too dangerous
> nowadays. We must eliminate it. And why shouldn't we? Why should we be
> prisoners of nature? But to transcend nature we must obey its every law --
> another paradox. Francis Bacon said:
>
> "For man, as the minister and interpreter of nature does, and understands,
> as much as he has observed of the order, operation, and mind of nature; and
> neither knows nor is able to do more. Neither is it possible for any power
> to loosen or burst the chain of causes, nor is nature to be overcome except
> by submission."
>
> War may be healthy, but we often redirect, modify, block, or modify healthy
> behaviors for our own purposes. We train dogs to herd sheep and protect
> them instead of killing them. Dog herding looks to me exactly like the pack
> behavior wild dogs use to concentrate and kill herd animals. To take a more
> controversial example, we teach adolescents to dance, "make out" or
> masturbate instead of copulating. That sometimes works, and it causes
> little long-term harm. The Victorians tried to make them over into
> non-sexual beings, which cannot be done. You can only harness nature
> (including your own primate nature) by "submission"; you cannot deny it, or
> eliminate it.

I agree.  In this context, I suggest that to be insane in a normal human
characteristic.  We all experience this condition now and then.  Just as getting
a physical illness is a normal characteristic. Once the characteristic is
identified and understood, it can be controlled, both physical and mental
illnesses.  The problem is that the abnormal acts caused by insanity are still
considered normal or at least eccentric.  We only recognize the illness after
some one has shot up a school or after a group has encouraged people to kill
themselves in the name of Allah while killing other people.

>
>
> As I said, I don't let lions eat me, even though it is perfectly natural to
> be eaten by lions. Defecating in the house is "perfectly natural" too, but
> we don't let domesticated dogs, cats or children do it. When toilet
> training a child you would not react to defecation as if it is a disease,
> or unnatural, or something that requires medical intervention. It is normal
> behavior that must be modified for our convenience and health.

I agree. So I say again why are insane people allowed to destroy the house or the
society?  A person with AIDS is not allowed to infect another and a person who is
insanely violent is not allowed to run free.  Why then do we excuse acts that
would be considered insane under normal circumstances, when they are being done
in the name of religion or national pride?  Why not call them what they are and
treat the problem like a sickness.  Of course, this does not mean a person does
not defend him self from the insane.  It only means that the entire group to
which the insane belongs is not held accountable.

> War is
> normal behavior that must be modified for our health too, but we can only
> modify it based on enlightened, informed knowledge of primate behavior.
> Appeals to morality and theology have made little progress. In the last 60
> years, war suddenly vanished from vast areas of earth where it was once
> endemic, such as Europe. I think we are doing something right, finally. It
> seems democracy works.

I agree. Europe has come a long way.  The problem is now elsewhere.

Ed


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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: Card for Edmund Storms
Content-Disposition: attachment;
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begin:vcard 
n:Storms;Edmnund 
tel;work:505 988 3673
x-mozilla-html:FALSE
adr:;;;;;;
version:2.1
email;internet:http://home.netcom.com/~storms2/index.html
x-mozilla-cpt:;1
fn:Edmnund Storms
end:vcard

--------------E5644AF709CB39A927F09D54--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 13 00:26:48 2002
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Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 23:31:46 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: UC Berkeley Researcher on Gravity Shielding
Resent-Message-ID: <"pjxKk3.0.n-7.QY42z" mx1>
Resent-From: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Given that holes respond to electromagnetic forces with negative momentum,
it should be possible to build an electrogravitic space drive based on the
ability of superconductors to reflect short wavelength electromagnetic
waves in the manner suggested by Chiao. The drive would consist of four
superconductive mirrors, two normal electron superconductors and two hole
superconductors, located as reflectors in a square waveguide (see Fig. 1)


^
|         /              \             ^
normal SC/. . . .>. . . . \ normal SC  |
        / .              . \                 Key:
          .              .
          M              v                   M - In-line maser
          ^              .
          .              .                   ^
^       \ .              . /        ^        | - net momentum transfer
| hole SC\. . . .<. . . . / hole SC |
          \              /                 ... - standing wave


    FIg. 1 - Electromagnetic space drive.


Lateral momentum transfers to the mirrors cancel on opposite sides, but all
vertical momentum vectors add. The questions then arise as to the amount of
force a standing wave can generate without disrupting the superconductor
surfaces, and the amount of cooling that must be provided to maintain
superconductivity.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 13 02:08:57 2002
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From: "Robert Beasley" <robert natvita.co.nz>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20020611110236.031f1808 mail.DIRECTVInternet.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20020611125156.03202620@mail.DIRECTVInternet.com> <3D063279.30109@pbtta.com> <3D075CB5.42BF1890@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Huge attachment . . . and other recent problems
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:17:55 +1200
Organization: natvita
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I am guilty, but I was unaware of the huge virus distribution that took
place from my machine.  Not one of those mails was sent by me. I was the
nest for a malicious mail containing a large list of addresses which somehow
exploded onto the net. I did not see any list and I do not open attachments.
Server and PC are now cleaned and guarded.
My sincere apologies to all affected.


Telephone 649-4442944
Fax  649-4441121

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Berry" <antigrav ihug.co.nz>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 2:37 AM
Subject: Re: Huge attachment . . . and other recent problems


> I also received an email from robert natvita.co.nz , some mp3 file 40kb.
> I checked on the domain and it had contact info, I rang him and he was
aware of
> the virus and was getting rid of it.
> But what kind of virus sends such varied files, still he didn't sound the
the kind
> of person sending malicious attachments.
>
> Terry Blanton wrote:
>
> > Jed Rothwell wrote:
> >
> > > Doug Marett wrote:
> > >
> > >> I got hit by the same virus on the morning of June 8th, subject:
> > >> "Re: Reich electroscopic anomaly - typo correction"
> > >>
> > >> The virus dropped two trojan horse packages into my computer which I
> > >> then had to destroy. . . .
> > >
> > >
> > > I do not understand. I do not know much about viruses. Please clarify.
> > >
> > > Do you mean this message came to you directly, via personal e-mail? Or
> > > was it distributed via Vortex-l?
> >
> > I received a virus from a direct email from "Robert" <no last name>,
> > with email address robert natvita.co.nz.  This message had a vortex
> > subject line, "Re: Re: Another Orgone Experiment (human IR sense)."  The
> > virus (actually a worm) was detected as W32/BADTRANS MM which is
> > described at:
> >
> >
http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.badtrans.b mm.ht
ml
> >
> > Terry
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 13 02:21:14 2002
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From: "Nick Palmer" <nick7 itl.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: re: Virus attack
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:06:34 +0100
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Apologies to Patrick Rowland for naming and shaming him. When I reported the
original "huge attachment" problem I had phoned my ISP because the first
message queued in my mailbox was so enormous that it wouldn't download
properly. They said that the header was "re Reich electroscopic anomaly" etc
and that it came from Patrick Dowland.  I got them to delete it from their
end. From everybody else's experience it appears as if the bloke at my ISP
read the wrong name out from the list i.e. Patrick not "Robert". Sorry
again.

Nick

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 13 04:09:44 2002
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From: "David Howe" <dhowe17 hotmail.com>
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Re: snappy come back to Parksie
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 04:06:14 -0700
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snappy come back to Parksie
From: thomas malloy

>snappy come back to Parksie
>vortexians;
>
>I saw this posted on the SVP list and found it amusing.
>
>>Nobel Laureate
>>physicist Douglas Osheroff of Stanford University has called the
>>hydrino a "crackpot idea," while American Physical Society
>>spokesman Robert Park includes Mills' work in the category of
>>"voodoo science." Park compares attempting to go below the
>>ground state to trying to travel "south of the South
>>Pole."

>Pardon me, Mr. Park, but isn't straight up south of the south
>pole?

Then I guess I'd have to ask "Is straight up above my house south of my
house???"  (Is it north of my house?  East?  West?  Any direction other
than up?)

"South of the south pole" is an excellent analogy for Mills' quackery.



_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 13 07:53:15 2002
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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:49:17 EDT
Subject: Re: snappy come back to Parksie
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In a message dated 6/13/02 7:09:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
dhowe17 hotmail.com writes:


> Then I guess I'd have to ask "Is straight up above my house south of my
> house???"  (Is it north of my house?  East?  West?  Any direction other
> than up?)
> 
> "South of the south pole" is an excellent analogy for Mills' quackery.
> 
> 
> 
> 

I still think that while Park talks of "South of the South Pole" a Mills 
backer might argue that the spirit of the pundit's language recalls old talk 
of an equatorial Torrid Zone beyond which it was believed no life could 
survive.  It took intrepid sailor to go past it and change human history.

But in truth, while metaphor and analogy are useful in relating science 
concept to lay readers, they shouldn't become debate issues in themselves.

Warm regards,

Erik

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 6/13/02 7:09:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dhowe17 hotmail.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Then I guess I'd have to ask "Is straight up above my house south of my<BR>
house???"&nbsp; (Is it north of my house?&nbsp; East?&nbsp; West?&nbsp; Any direction other<BR>
than up?)<BR>
<BR>
"South of the south pole" is an excellent analogy for Mills' quackery.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
I still think that while Park talks of "South of the South Pole" a Mills backer might argue that the spirit of the pundit's language recalls old talk of an equatorial Torrid Zone beyond which it was believed no life could survive.&nbsp; It took intrepid sailor to go past it and change human history.<BR>
<BR>
But in truth, while metaphor and analogy are useful in relating science concept to lay readers, they shouldn't become debate issues in themselves.<BR>
<BR>
Warm regards,<BR>
<BR>
Erik</FONT></HTML>

--part1_61.211bcc36.2a3a0aed_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 13 09:25:25 2002
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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:19:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: Robert Beasley <robert natvita.co.nz>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Huge attachment . . . and other recent problems
In-Reply-To: <003801c21256$a1477f20$0ad0adcb natvita>
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On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Robert Beasley wrote:

> I am guilty, but I was unaware of the huge virus distribution that took
> place from my machine.  Not one of those mails was sent by me. I was the
> nest for a malicious mail containing a large list of addresses which somehow
> exploded onto the net. I did not see any list and I do not open attachments.

If I recall, that particular virus attacks an old insecure version of MS
Outlook, and you don't have to open the attachment to become infected.
People complain about Microsoft's longrunning bad attitude about virus
security.  Guess why?


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 13 09:28:57 2002
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Message-ID: <20020613162132.32593.qmail web11205.mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:21:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: snappy come back to Parksie
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--- Erikbaard aol.com wrote:

> the spirit of the pundit's language

Herein lays the problem


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 13 09:32:16 2002
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Subject: Re: snappy come back to Parksie
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On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 Erikbaard aol.com wrote:

> I still think that while Park talks of "South of the South Pole" a Mills
> backer might argue that the spirit of the pundit's language recalls old talk
> of an equatorial Torrid Zone beyond which it was believed no life could
> survive.  It took intrepid sailor to go past it and change human history.

Both of these are rhetorical tricks.  Parks wants to stigmatize Mills as
being stupid; as stupid as someone who wants to go south of the south
pole.  This is just plain DISHONEST.  Sure there is another level besides
the lower energy one:  electron capture, where a proton becomes a neutron.
Parks' metaphor falls apart, and Parks no doubt knows this (he DOESN'T
know about electron capture?)  The question is, might there be other
unknown levels?  The lowest one is just the lowest KNOWN one.

Trying to paint your opponent as stupid, that's a political ploy which is
unethical when coming from a scientist.  A scientist should maintain
standards of bend-over-backwards honesty.  A scientist should only care
whether the evidence demonstrates that the opponent is WRONG.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 13 10:10:16 2002
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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:44:52 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: snappy come back to Parksie
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David Howe wrote:

>>Pardon me, Mr. Park, but isn't straight up south of the south
>>pole?
>
>Then I guess I'd have to ask "Is straight up above my house south of my 
>house???"  (Is it north of my house?  East?  West?  Any direction other 
>than up?)

It would be east in the morning and west in the afternoon. (Actually, 
northeast and northwest in the U.S.) For the purposes of aerial and space 
navigation and solar astronomy, the cardinal directions on earth are 
sometimes plotted beyond the planet surface, at least informally. Although 
I think "one light year south of earth" usually means a location "below" 
the plane of the planetary orbits, not the equatorial plane. The north and 
south poles of the planets and sun are arbitrarily the same as earth.


>"South of the south pole" is an excellent analogy for Mills' quackery.

No, it isn't. It makes perfect sense.

- Jed

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Edmund Storms wrote:

>Nevertheless, very few predators hunt and kill their own on the scale we 
>humans find necessary.

The others are not capable of it. They would if they could.


>Predators protect their food supply, as they must . . .

No they do not! The populations of predators and prey rise and fall with 
opposite peaks, two sine waves out of synch. The simplified example in old 
textbooks is an island with nothing but foxes and rabbits. The foxes reduce 
the rabbit population from the peak until there are not enough rabbits to 
support the fox population. The fox population dies back from starvation 
and disease, and as it falls the rabbits recover, return to the peak, and 
the cycle begins again. Left to their own devices and unchecked by 
starvation, predators would drive prey into extinction. Cats do not leave 
one or two mice in the house or yard to "protect their food supply." They 
kill all mice out to the limits of their territory. Domestic cats can do 
this because they do not survive by eating mice. They do not starve when 
they eliminate all prey.

A predator with particularly effective weapons or venom capable of killing 
all prey would quickly drive itself into extinction. That may have 
happened. Harmful bacteria and viruses that kill most hosts do not survive 
long. Either they become extinct or they mutate into less toxic, less 
aggressive forms, like the AIDS-type virus that infect most felines.


>. . . but they do not make a sport of attacking their neighbors.

Oh yes they do! Especially other primates. Most other predators make a 
business of it, not a sport. They drive off or kill competing adults. Many 
other species, such as ants, routinely attack members of their own species.


>We, as a predator specie, engage in behavior that has no relationship to 
>protecting what we need or is even consistent with our long-term survival.

It has a direct relationship! Our closest primate relatives do the same 
thing we do, except they do not have effective weapons, so their wars 
seldom threaten their population. Primitive human tribal warfare was 
usually inefficient, ritualistic and conducted on a small scale it did not 
significantly reduce population. It drove migration. Only in the last 3,000 
years or so did weapons have become seriously harmful.


>What would make a predator behave in such a self-destructive way?

They all do. It is the most efficient survival technique. It became 
dysfunctional to us only a short while ago on the evolutionary scale of 
things. We are adjusting rapidly, but we have not finished.


>Most people are insane in various ways . . .

If "most people" are in a given condition, it is normal and healthy by 
definition. "Insanity" means an organic problem exists, or a genetic 
disability, and the patient is not able to function or survive. Most 
healthy people in natural circumstances will conduct endless tribal 
warfare, homicide and predation. There is nothing wrong with the DNA or the 
culture of the people living in modern Afghanistan. Their grip on reality 
is  as good as ours. Our ancestors who wrote "Beowolf" and fought the 100 
years war (1336-1565) lived the same way. The warrior ethics of modern 
Afghanistan are celebrated in masterpieces such as the "Iliad," "Henry V," 
"Othello" "The Tale of Heike." We name our cities after warriors, such as 
Alexandria and Washington.

In the greatest call to arms ever written in English, Henry V did not 
appeal to justice, or the hope of future peace, or ideology of any sort. He 
appealed to honor, bravery, strength & tribe, the way bin Lauden talks. He 
demanded suicidal fury for his own personal sake:


Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead. . . .

. . . when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger;
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood . . .

. . . Now set the teeth and stretch the nostril wide,
Hold hard the breath and bend up every spirit
To his full height. On, on, you noblest English.
Whose blood is fet from fathers of war-proof!
Fathers that, like so many Alexanders,
Have in these parts from morn till even fought
And sheathed their swords for lack of argument:
Dishonour not your mothers; now attest
That those whom you call'd fathers did beget you.
Be copy now to men of grosser blood,
And teach them how to war. And you, good yeoman,
Whose limbs were made in England, show us here
The mettle of your pasture; let us swear
That you are worth your breeding; which I doubt not;
For there is none of you so mean and base,
That hath not noble lustre in your eyes.
I see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,
Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:
Follow your spirit, and upon this charge
Cry 'God for Harry, England, and Saint George!'


What exalted poetry! Read it and your hair stands on end, your pulse 
quickens, an ancient, visceral, sexual thrill alerts every nerve. It is 
magnificent. And what, exactly, is it about? It is about a quarrel over 
territory that meant nothing to anyone expect the royal family. It was no 
more important than the Afghani tribal warfare that spilled over and 
triggered the destruction of the World Trade Center, or a chimpanzee raid.

The problem is, the Afghani warrior ethics are out of date. They worked 
well until around 1500 when weapons started improving. After 1900 weapons 
were so potent the warrior lifestyle became impossible to sustain. Europe 
learned that lesson from 1914 to 1945. The Afghanis have not yet learned 
it. Warfare resembles swidden agriculture ("slash and burn") in 
rainforests. This method works fine. It was "sustainable" for thousands of 
years, causing no measurable harm to the forests. Then in the last 200 
years the population of farmers increased so much that today swidden no 
longer works.


>Until we recognize that aggression, war, and murder are irrational acts 
>caused by a brain dysfunction . . .

It is exactly the opposite. Until we recognize that war and murder are 
rational and caused by healthy brain functions common to all people, we 
will not learn how to deal with them effectively. Calling them 
"dysfunctional" and pretending we are not thrilled by "Henry V" resembles 
the Victorian response to sexual urges. Denial never works. You must begin 
with self knowledge, and knowledge of natural science. Admit you are 
a  primate like any other. We will *always* thrill to "Henry V." We will 
always exalt violence, but let us hope we do it in the theater or video 
game, not real life. You cannot escape homicidal urges. Build on them, 
instead. Take pride in them. Our ancestors understood our nature. They 
described it stories such as Cain and Abel, and they called it original sin.

Anyway, this is off topic. It must be annoying readers, so I will shift it 
to Vortex-BL. I have been thinking about these topics for years, and I am 
glad I took the opportunity to write this down. I hope it was not too verbose.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 13 12:45:46 2002
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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:07:20 -0500
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From: thomas malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Our evil nature
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>I realize this is off topic,

It's not off topic at all, we're discussing natural philosophy, life, 
the universe, and everything. This discussion is a classic example of 
there being two explanations for a phenomena, which are mutually 
contradictry.

>  but as an amateur student of animal behavior I must say, I think Ed 
>Storms is mistaken here. He wrote:
>
>>The people who took Japan into the war were clearly insane,

On the one hand, I agree, they should have known that they would get 
clobbered, they attacked a continental power, with no well thought 
out for how they were going to win. On the other hand, their actions 
were throughly barbarous, the Chinese are still itching to get even 
with them.

>>
Jed Continued;

U.S. military power cannot stop terrorism, but moral and financial 
support for education, democracy, science, equality and progress can 
and will. It may

I disagree. Followers of fundamentalist Islam have a fundamental 
difference in their souls. They did not create their God, Allah, they 
found him attractive because he told them what they wanted to hear. 
No amount of education and anything that comes with it, for Western 
Culture will anything other than make them more violent.

This all comes down to sin and our evil nature which will have to be 
cleansed in order to make world peace possible.

Then Ed responded;

Many people have gotten away with outrageous behavior in the past
in the name of Christianity.

If you follow the story of Edom, you will find that Esau's first born 
son Elephiz. was the ancestor of the people who founded Rome. Now the 
Roman Empire never went out of business, they just changed into a 
church. It has two elements, one Pagan and the other Christian, Like 
any bureaucracy, the bad people got control of it and did the 
outrageous things you mention. Following it's 1260 year reign, the 
Roman church lost it's sovereignty in 1789, however it got it back in 
1929, and as soon as the dark side gets control again, well look out.

   Now the same thing is happening in the name of Islam.  I suggest 
that God has not changed its mind, but some men have gone insane and 
they happen to be Moslem this time.

This sort of bad behavior always happens in the name of Islam, we 
( Christianity )  spread by voluntary conversion, they spread by the 
sword. BTW, G-d is a he, not an it. We know this because Hebrew has 
cases.

Of course, we can look back in
history and see similar patterns of behavior, which also suggest insanity as
the root cause.

And I suggest that evil is an equally valid explanation for the phenomena.

later Dean wrote;

>Jed Rothwell> wrote:
>
>>In 1860, Georgia went to war
>  >because it was not a democratic society. It was a dictatorship of dominant
>
>
>I find it hard to believe that you live in Atlanta and think the Civil
>War had anything to do with slavery.  Emancipation of the slaves was a
>political afterthought -- even by Lincoln.
>
I don't know what history of the Civil War you've been studying Dean, 
but Abolitionism was one of the driving forces behind that war. Foote 
wrote a book about it, in which he quotes a Southerner referring to 
the New Englanders as being a different race of people from the 
Southerners. I believe that in that war, the right side won, and the 
world is better for it.

Then Jed posted;

That sounds a little like the German point of view from 1910 to 1945. 
"War is good for you," they said. "It promotes survival of the 
fittest, and wipes out unfit, sub-human races."

Then the Children of Esau moved north into Bavaria. There are some 
people who refer to the death camps established during the 1939 - 
1945 war as the Jewish holacost, and that 6,000,000 were slaughtered 
in reality, 15,000,000 were slaughtered  it was a holocost against 
the followers of HaShem.

Then Keith Nagel

Well Ed, here's your opportunity. It's maybe worth burning some bandwidth
to see if you can convince Thomas that he is being mislead here, using that
wonderful new evolutionary advantage, reason.

Reason has nothing to do with this, what I have presented here is two 
paradigms. Nobody can prove either of them, right now.




-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 13 13:20:00 2002
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Subject: One LAST note about sanity
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I am sorry to keep harping on this, but I see I made a mistake here. When I 
say warriors are "sane" and "normal" I don't mean they all are! War does 
attract psychopaths. Here is what I have in mind. Suppose you select 500 
Afghani troops, or 500 of Henry's bowmen from Agincourt. Using a time 
machine, you grab them before they are exposed to war, wounds, 
malnutrition, Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome and so on. You do intensive 
tests for abnormalities, such as blood, hormones and DNA screening. You do 
a battery of interview tests for delusions or voices-in-the-head -- the 
sort of thing Joan of Arc suffered from. You count how many suffer from 
bipolar disorder, schizophrenia and anything else modern medicine knows how 
to diagnose. Then you compare them to 500 people chosen at random from any 
population.

I have no proof of this, but in my opinion you would not find any 
measurable, clinical difference between these warriors and normal people. 
You cannot predict they will act violently. Furthermore if you put randomly 
selected, normal group of people into Agincourt they would soon act like 
warriors. Countless eye-witness books by WWII vets bear this out. In other 
words, what Ed was saying about "insanity" is not true in a literal sense. 
There is no way we can go through the population to identify or weed out 
people with homicidal tendencies, because everyone has these tendencies. 
They are triggered by environmental stimuli, not physiology.

In a metaphorical or larger social sense, naturally I agree Afghani troops 
are crazy. Perhaps leaders such as bin Lauden and Henry V tend to be crazy. 
I wouldn't know.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 13 13:47:58 2002
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On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, thomas malloy wrote:

> >I realize this is off topic,
>
> It's not off topic at all, we're discussing natural philosophy, life,
> the universe, and everything. This discussion is a classic example of
> there being two explanations for a phenomena, which are mutually
> contradictry.


"Off topic" means "Vortex-L has a narrow topic focus, and things outside
that focus are off topic."

>From the vortex-L webpage:

    The Vortex-L list was originally created for discussions of
    professional research into fluid vortex/cavitation devices which
    exhibit anomalous energy effects (ie: the inventions of Schaeffer,
    Huffman, Griggs, and Potapov among others.) Currently it has evolved
    into a discussion on "taboo" physics reports and research.


However, I've never added a rule against off-topic discussions.  Came
close a couple of times though!




(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 13 19:47:10 2002
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Subject: Re: Dirac's Equation and the Sea of Negative Energy
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>Those interested in another excellent view of substantive aether physics
(as
>opposed to  Einstein's late in life use of the term "aether" in connection
>with his fictitious space-time topology) should get a copy of Infinite
>Energy, Issue #43.  Don Hotson's article garnered praise from our brilliant
>and eloquent colleague Dr. Tom Phipps.  Phipps'  letter will be printed in
>full in a future issue, but I quote it in part below, as well as the
>reference to a friend's conclusion that #43 is the best Infinite Energy
yet.

I just finished reading Don Hotson's article, and was impressed by its
apparent self-consistency and its attempt to explain a number of disparate
phenomenon in physics where quantum mechanics has fumbled the ball. I was
intrigued by his Bose-Einstein Condensate
(BEC) model for explaining both vacuum polarization and the two slit
experiment. This not being my field, however, I can't really judge if
Hotson's model has its own contradictions that fail to explain physical
phenomenon. I noted from Dr. Phipps letter to the editor his view that:

>it is important to note the difference of Dirac's model from Hotson's
proposal:  Dirac pictured >electrons as the only physical particles, not
electrons plus positrons.  Thus the asymmetry of >physical abundances of
observable particles and what we now call "anti-particles" was
>automatically explained.

It was not clear to me how Hotson reconciles this asymmetry in nature when
his aether model calls for an equal number of both of these in his negative
energy sea.

Also, how would anyone test for this negative energy sea, since as Hotson
notes:

"The equations call for a negative-energy BEC that fills all space, but
undetectably, since it vibrates in "imaginary" directions."

Has anyone else read this article who would care to comment on some of these
things?

Anyway, I found it to be a fascinating read.

Doug





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Hydrino propulsion!



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:33:43 -0400
From: Jim Shaffer <jmshaffer alltel.net>
To: freenrg-l eskimo.com
Subject: [FG]: NASA funds project to test free-energy rocket!

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,51792,00.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 14 15:42:04 2002
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 m>
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I wrote:

"You cannot escape homicidal urges. Build on them, instead. Take pride in 
them. Our ancestors understood our nature. They described it stories such 
as Cain and Abel, and they called it original sin."

I meant to say that murder was the second act in the Bible, right after 
original sin. It was sin # 2.

The original sin (#1) was acquiring the thirst for knowledge, which still 
causes no end of trouble. Ask any CF scientist!


I should acknowledge some sources:

A lecture series at Emory U. in collaboration with the Yerkes Primate 
Research Center. Amazing photos of chimpanzee raiding.

Peter Stearns, "Battleground of Desire : The Struggle for Self-Control in 
Modern America," (New York University Press). Social history and sociology 
from the Victorian era to the Clinton scandals.

- Jed

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Jun 14, 2002
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:23:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 14 Jun 02   Washington, DC

1. MISSILE DEFENSE: IF THE NEWS IS BAD, CLASSIFY IT.  Yesterday
marked the formal withdrawal of the US from the ABM Treaty, and  
President Bush vowed to deploy an effective missile defense as
soon as possible.  Effective?  That could take a while, but who
will know?  Faced with a series of embarrassing failures of
missile defense tests, the Pentagon took firm corrective action
last month, placing a secrecy order on future test results (WN 17
May 02).  Naturally, news of any successful test will be leaked. 
A move in the Senate would amend the Defense Authorization Bill
to block the secrecy order, but Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld
warned that he would recommend a veto of the spending bill if it
tinkers in any way with the President's missile defense plan. 

2. DIRTY STORY: IF YOU CAN'T CLASSIFY IT, CREATE A NEW HEADLINE. 
On Sunday, FBI screw ups prior to 9/11 were on every talk show. 
By Monday, congressional committees were fighting over who would
get to hear the first public testimony from FBI whistle-blower
Coleen Rowley.  The White House urgently needed an intelligence
success.  So what are news managers for?  On Tuesday, it was
announced that Abdullah al-Muhajir, described as the key figure
in a plot to explode a dirty bomb in Washington, DC, had been
arrested at O'Hare International Airport.  Failures of the FBI 
vanished from the news.  Lucky timing?  Not exactly.  Muhajir, a
US citizen, had been arrested a month earlier, and was secretly
held in a military prison, without charges, until he was needed. 
The media did the rest, feeding on the public's exaggerated fear
of radiation   even pictures of mushroom clouds.  President Bush
was shown on television explaining that "Padilla is a bad guy." 
It's probably true, but then, that's why we have trials isn't it? 

3. GLOBAL WARMING: NOW THAT IT'S OFFICIAL, WHAT DO WE DO NEXT? 
When asked about an EPA report acknowledging the climate is
growing warmer(WN 7 Jun 02), President Bush said he had "read the
report put out by the bureaucracy."  If you're wondering who the
bureaucracy is, the White House signed off on the report.  The
Administration proposes we learn to live in a warmer world.  In
fact, we have little choice; as a result of CO2 in the pipeline,
climate models show temperatures continuing to rise for years no
matter how we cut emissions.  The National Climate Change
Vulnerability and Resilience Program, introduced by Rep. J.C.
Watts, Jr. (R-OK), offers a plan for adapting to the change.

4. NUCLEAR PROLIFERATION?  NOT IN JAPAN.  Japan is certainly the
most technologically advanced nation without a nuclear arsenal.
But when Chief Cabinet Secretary Yasuo Fukuda warned "Japan could
abandon its long standing non-nuclear principals," popular
opinion quickly compelled him to recant.

(Christy Fernandez assisted with this week's What's New.)
THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
American Physical Society and the University, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 15 02:08:15 2002
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From: "Patrick Dowland" <patrick_dowland hotmail.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Aether Power from Pulsed Plasmas (fwd)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 05:04:49 -0400
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Hey, since Marett has formally nominated me as the official agent of
the Correas on this list, I can now feel like I am doing a sacred duty
when I forward these announcements.
As for Marett, he seems to have decided to flee into the sea of
negative energy, where he can hope to sail safely without being called
to answer any embarrassing questions.


Cheers,

Patrick



Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 00:15:44 -0400
From: Aetherometry Info <info aetherometry.com>
Subject: Aether Power from Pulsed Plasmas


Dear Friends and Colleagues,

AKRONOS Publishing would like to announce the publication on its website,

             http://www.aetherometry.com

of the following new monograph in the Labofex Scientific Reports series:


LS1-25:
Correa, P & Correa, A (2002)
"Aether Power from Pulsed Plasmas"


The direct link to further information pertaining to this monograph is:

http://www.aetherometry.com/abs-Lab.html#abstractLS1-25

In this monograph the Correas, for the first time, introduce the reader
to their model of the electron. They proceed to an examination of the
normal glow dicharge and indentify, in Paschen's law, an unsuspected
contribution from the "vacuum state" which indicates a local
manifestation of emissions of ambipolar massfree radiation.  Lastly,
they apply their approach, in summary form, to the manifestation of
anomalous cathode reaction forces in autoelectronically pulsed plasma
discharges.

This is a provocative, experimentally-based report, due to be followed
by an explicit detailing of the physical processes involved - processes
which, to this day, remain unknown to conventional plasma physics.


Yours,

Laura McFinlay
Akronos Publishing



_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 15 03:51:28 2002
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Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 02:56:32 -0800
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Quadrupole antennas and novel resonance systems
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One means of creating multipole antennas is to use multipole lobes and
excite them with differing waveforms.  This is complex.

In my amateur opinion, a more interesting and quicker-cheaper-better means
of creating a wide variety of simple quadrupole antenna designs is to mix
inductive current loop antenna elements (B generators) with capacitive
lobes (E field generators.)  This means also can be combined with the first
multi-lobe multi-driver waveform strategy, but this is probably not
necessary to achieve any specific quadrupole configuration.

Of further interest is the arraying of multipole antennas to create a
complex phased array type radiating surface.  A similar strategy can then
be employed to build passive "multipole optics" devices which can perform a
wide variety of multipole waveform funtions, including refraction,
reflection, splitting, etc.  Of these, refraction might be of some
communications interest as a means to split off or combine segments of
broadband communications using only passive mass produced devices.

The simplest form of passive quadrupole reflectors/refractors can be made
by arraying conductive rods and circles.  The corresponding simple form of
active quadrupole antenna would then consist of an array of loop and lobe
antenna elements yet to be described.

A loop and lobe element of an entenna consists simply of an antenna lobe,
which carries current to its tip and thereby charges the tip - as in any
ordinary simple lobe antenna.  However, one or more loops are included in
the lobe in order to create an out-of phase magnetic field. This is
equivalent to combining two radiating elements into one in order to achive
qaudrupole radiation.  A second mirror image lobe is then added and the two
connected to a simple power source, such as a coaxial cable connected to an
oscillator.

The following is one possible loop and lobe design (courrier type required
to see this):

            -----                     -----
            |   |                     |   |
            ----|---------- ----------|----
    -------------         | |         -------------
                          | |
                        --|--
                        |   |
                        |   | Coax


The corresponding passive element might look like this:





            -----                     -----
            |   |                     |   |
            ----|---------------------|----
    -------------                     -------------



Or this:

            -----                     -----
            |   |                     |   |
            -----                     -----
    -----------------------------------------------


There is an innumerable number of similar active and passive antenna designs.

Of further interest is the possibility of placing an active mutipole array
at one end of a waveguide and one or more passive arrays at the other.
Alternatively, an active array could be placed interior to a waveguide, and
one or more passive arrays placed at the ends.  The purpose of this is to
create a resonator which can build up large standing wave fields, and which
can create a highly collimated beam of the desired type.

Further functionality  might be obtained by placing the antenna systems in
an appropriate dielectric.  This provides a better matching of the energy
in the E and B components of the fields for similar element sizes.  A
further permutaion is the use of plates or plate/rod combinations instead
of simple rods for the E generating components.

If desirable gravitomagnetic effects can be obtained from appropriate
quadrupole radiation, or the reflection of such, then it appears such an
antenna system could provide a good test bed for various theories,
including the testing of the formation of gravity waves by reflection of
electromagnetic waves.  If the radiation is sufficiently coherent, it may
not be necessary that the reflector itself be superconducting, but merely
necessary that it have the proper precision, composition, mix and geometry
of dielectrics, conducting rods and circular conductors.  Combining these
elements in a waveguide standing wave system is all that remains.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:20:26 +0200
From: Geert Dijkhuis <icblsec wxs.nl>
Subject: Russian BL Conference

Dear Colleagues,

please find attached the announcement of the 10th Russian
Conference on Cold Nuclear Transmutation and Ball Lightning,
scheduled for 29 September - 6 October 2002 in Dagomys
near the city of Sochi where the Black See shore meets the
Caucasus Mountain Range.

For those of you who attended or submitted papers to ISBL01 in
St. Louis, USA, I have no word on progress with its proceedings.

For ISBL03 in Taiwan, Dr. Masashi Kamogawa expects to mail the
announcement and first call for papers later this year in November.

Last January The Royal Society published a Theme Issue on Ball
Lightning, compiled and edited by J. Abrahamson (Philosophical
Transactions, Vol. 360, no. 1790). It relates in particular to the
chemical aspects of BL.  And it includes previously unpublished
eye witness reports from several countries. ICBL congratules the
authors with this fine piece of scientific publishing. For online access,
check with:
                     www.pubs.royalsoc.ac.uk.

Since May last year, National Geographic Channel is broadcasting
the Australian BL documentary Great Balls of Fire on a monthly basis
in Europe. The reactions that reached me were favourable throughout.

Please continue you work on ball lightning. I hope to see many of you
at the next symposium in Taipeh!

With greetings and best wishes,


dr. Geert C. Dijkhuis
ICBL Secretary
Kortenaerlaan 7
4535 BV Terneuzen
The Netherlands
tel/fax +31 - 115 - 619 529




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------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C21477.CB57FC40--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 15 08:39:42 2002
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Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 08:46:44 -0600
From: Edmund Storms <storms2 ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: Re: Theology Correction, original and #2 sins
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To the long suffering readers of this thread,

Granted, we all have urges that, if acted on, would be a sin and illegal.
However, a distinct difference exists between people who control these urges
and those who do not.  When these urges are not controlled, several reasons
exist.  For example, the person can be driven by uncontrolled anger, or
greed, or hate, or etc.  I'm suggesting that an often ignored reason is
insanity, either permanent or temporary.  This idea is not new and it is
recognized in law and in human experience.  However, I'm only suggesting that
it plays a bigger role in politics and religion than normally acknowledged.
Insanity is normally defined as a condition that causes a person to lose
contact with reality. It becomes a public issue only if the person is a
danger to themselves or to others.  Different types of insanity are steadily
being identified, many of which are only a problem to the person and his/her
friends.  I'm suggesting that when a person having these defects gains power,
these defects are amplified because even normal people can act insane when
they are lead by an insane leader, because most people can be easily
manipulated.  I'm suggesting this has happened in the past and caused
millions to die, and this is what is happening now.  Until people acknowledge
that certain leaders are mentally ill and treat them as as such, we are no
going to solve the problems they create.

Anyway, I will make this my final shot on this subject.

Ed

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I wrote:
>
> "You cannot escape homicidal urges. Build on them, instead. Take pride in
> them. Our ancestors understood our nature. They described it stories such
> as Cain and Abel, and they called it original sin."
>
> I meant to say that murder was the second act in the Bible, right after
> original sin. It was sin # 2.
>
> The original sin (#1) was acquiring the thirst for knowledge, which still
> causes no end of trouble. Ask any CF scientist!
>
> I should acknowledge some sources:
>
> A lecture series at Emory U. in collaboration with the Yerkes Primate
> Research Center. Amazing photos of chimpanzee raiding.
>
> Peter Stearns, "Battleground of Desire : The Struggle for Self-Control in
> Modern America," (New York University Press). Social history and sociology
> from the Victorian era to the Clinton scandals.
>
> - Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 15 09:49:05 2002
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Subject: Re: Equipment and suggestions needed for gravity wave experiment
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
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Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 19:38:30 +0400
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Hi Keith,

You are right on Chiao paper dont suggest any transients or pulses. I thought I may not succeed on initial attempts using the method Chiao describe, because Chiao selected 12 GHz excitation signal is determined by wavelength matching to the size of the sc disk, probably not (related) to special properties of the YBCO material. If the effect would be effective in THz's or in x-ray spectrum instead of Ghz's, I have no way to do the experiment this way. But there would be an alternative method, maybe even more effective which is letting sc disk choose own favorite oscillation frequency or frequencies. This method is simple: hit the drum by a stick and listen how it sounds. Actually, Podkletnov gravity impulse experiment appears using this method. Give an electric shock to SC, disturb its dynamic and superconductance with large currents and accompanied magnetic field. It may also possible x-ray are produced similar to an x-ray machine. May the gravity impulse is generated in this disturbance or in recovering back its original state, just like electrons shells emits photons. Photons are wave packets.

But, In Podkletnov experiment it is observed the direction of the gravity impulse is determined by the direction of the discharge. This fact suggest:

1) The phenomenon is determined to bulk properties of superconductor, just like a em wave radiated by an antenna is determined by bulk electrical property of the conductor and by the geometry and independent from atomic structure of the metal used for the antenna.

2) Or, gravity impulse could be a coherent quantum phenomenon just like other macroscopic behavior of superconductors and similar to a laser.

First mode support Chiao theory and its experiment setup, I think but the second not. It rather be compatible by the stuff I described in first paragraph of this letter.

So, I think it would be safe to think both possibilities and choose measurement equipment usable in both cases.


Keith Nagel wrote:
> 
> Hi Hamdi.
> 
> >This is true if the effect I am looking for persist during sweep time of
> the analyzer.
> >Otherwise, If effect show up in transients, may only real-time spectrum
> analyzers
> >can catch it. So Scope would be more convenient.
> 
> OK, but I'm not sure why you think the results would be transient. By that,
> do you mean that after several cycles of the incident GHz radiation that a
> steady
> state would be reached and the gravitational radiation would stop?
> If you accept Podkletnov's results as true, it would seem not
> to be the case. I don't get that from my first read of Chiao's paper either,
> but of course I could well be wrong.

 
> Also, it would seem essential to have a quadrapolar CW radiation source
> to generate the gravity waves, which themselves are expected to be
> quadrapolar.
> 
> >If I can spend a fortune, I can get a TEK 6604 6 GHz scope with 20 Giga
> samples/seconds, amazing!
> 
> Wow. That's a fast scope.
> 
> >Of Course I am planning to use diode detectors to detect existence of em
> wave generated by YBCO disk,
> >but still I think I need a good scope to not miss short lived events.
> Actually, seeing
> >0.5 to 1ns duration events would be enough, because and E.M. exitation
> inside reflecting
> >walls of and metal encosure will live at least 1ns in my experiment despite
> the actual pulse could be >shorter.
> 
> I've measured delay times down to about 100ps using that scope, but it
> wasn't
> what you'd call precision measurement. Resolving something with structure
> in the ns region would be difficult but not impossible. Certainly it was
> easy to measure delay times in that region pretty accurately. One thing
> about the brighteye, it helps a lot for seeing transients but you still need
> a rep rate of say 60Hz to sit there and make measurements. It's not a
> storage scope. "God" made digital scopes for single shot (grin).
> 

> As the theory proposed by Chiao suggests that there is a direct coupling
> between EM and gravity, perhaps you should consider pulse type experiments
> rather than continuous wave. Sort of like what Podkletnov is doing now.
> As a pulse would excite a variety of modes you could avoid the sweep problem
> mentioned earlier.
> 
> K.

Yes, I am exactly considering this.  Nobody should not underestimate experience had Podkletnov has acquired, his knowledge and his wisdom. Superconductance is accompanied by very rich phenomena. Actually carry quantum world to macroscopic scale, incredible indeed.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 15 10:21:33 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <hamdix@verisoft.com.tr>
Subject: RE: Equipment and suggestions needed for gravity wave experiment
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Hi Hamdi & Horace.

Yes, if I read Chiao correctly, what he's suggesting is that
the impedences "match" naturally at a certain penetration distance
into the superconductor, presumably you could get better results
by also matching the physical shape of the superconductor
to act as a cavity. I'm glad to see you are interested in the impulse
type experiment, it will be more practical to generate sufficient
power to see something with this approach ( think of the original
Hertz experiment, he wasn't using sine wave generators now was
he???? (grin) ). On the other hand, there's this issue with the
quadrupolar radiation which I'm not sure how to address on impulse.
As Horace suggests, passive elements ( including the superconductor
itself ) may be able to tranfer energy to the desired mode due
to the shock excitation.

Podkletnov's results are certainly spectacular, and he's no
slouch when it comes to material science. Anyone that can
fabricate an SC disk of the size he's talking about is someone
to be reckoned with. I went looking for gravity.org yesterday
and found it to be dead. Has anything new been released concerning
Podkletnov's work?

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr [mailto:hamdix@verisoft.com.tr]
Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 11:39 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Equipment and suggestions needed for gravity wave
experiment


Hi Keith,

You are right on Chiao paper dont suggest any transients or pulses. I
thought I may not succeed on initial attempts using the method Chiao
describe, because Chiao selected 12 GHz excitation signal is determined by
wavelength matching to the size of the sc disk, probably not (related) to
special properties of the YBCO material. If the effect would be effective in
THz's or in x-ray spectrum instead of Ghz's, I have no way to do the
experiment this way. But there would be an alternative method, maybe even
more effective which is letting sc disk choose own favorite oscillation
frequency or frequencies. This method is simple: hit the drum by a stick and
listen how it sounds. Actually, Podkletnov gravity impulse experiment
appears using this method. Give an electric shock to SC, disturb its dynamic
and superconductance with large currents and accompanied magnetic field. It
may also possible x-ray are produced similar to an x-ray machine. May the
gravity impulse is generated in this !
disturbance or in recovering back its original state, just like electrons
shells emits photons. Photons are wave packets.

But, In Podkletnov experiment it is observed the direction of the gravity
impulse is determined by the direction of the discharge. This fact suggest:

1) The phenomenon is determined to bulk properties of superconductor, just
like a em wave radiated by an antenna is determined by bulk electrical
property of the conductor and by the geometry and independent from atomic
structure of the metal used for the antenna.

2) Or, gravity impulse could be a coherent quantum phenomenon just like
other macroscopic behavior of superconductors and similar to a laser.

First mode support Chiao theory and its experiment setup, I think but the
second not. It rather be compatible by the stuff I described in first
paragraph of this letter.

So, I think it would be safe to think both possibilities and choose
measurement equipment usable in both cases.


Keith Nagel wrote:
>
> Hi Hamdi.
>
> >This is true if the effect I am looking for persist during sweep time of
> the analyzer.
> >Otherwise, If effect show up in transients, may only real-time spectrum
> analyzers
> >can catch it. So Scope would be more convenient.
>
> OK, but I'm not sure why you think the results would be transient. By
that,
> do you mean that after several cycles of the incident GHz radiation that a
> steady
> state would be reached and the gravitational radiation would stop?
> If you accept Podkletnov's results as true, it would seem not
> to be the case. I don't get that from my first read of Chiao's paper
either,
> but of course I could well be wrong.


> Also, it would seem essential to have a quadrapolar CW radiation source
> to generate the gravity waves, which themselves are expected to be
> quadrapolar.
>
> >If I can spend a fortune, I can get a TEK 6604 6 GHz scope with 20 Giga
> samples/seconds, amazing!
>
> Wow. That's a fast scope.
>
> >Of Course I am planning to use diode detectors to detect existence of em
> wave generated by YBCO disk,
> >but still I think I need a good scope to not miss short lived events.
> Actually, seeing
> >0.5 to 1ns duration events would be enough, because and E.M. exitation
> inside reflecting
> >walls of and metal encosure will live at least 1ns in my experiment
despite
> the actual pulse could be >shorter.
>
> I've measured delay times down to about 100ps using that scope, but it
> wasn't
> what you'd call precision measurement. Resolving something with structure
> in the ns region would be difficult but not impossible. Certainly it was
> easy to measure delay times in that region pretty accurately. One thing
> about the brighteye, it helps a lot for seeing transients but you still
need
> a rep rate of say 60Hz to sit there and make measurements. It's not a
> storage scope. "God" made digital scopes for single shot (grin).
>

> As the theory proposed by Chiao suggests that there is a direct coupling
> between EM and gravity, perhaps you should consider pulse type experiments
> rather than continuous wave. Sort of like what Podkletnov is doing now.
> As a pulse would excite a variety of modes you could avoid the sweep
problem
> mentioned earlier.
>
> K.

Yes, I am exactly considering this.  Nobody should not underestimate
experience had Podkletnov has acquired, his knowledge and his wisdom.
Superconductance is accompanied by very rich phenomena. Actually carry
quantum world to macroscopic scale, incredible indeed.

Regards,

hamdi ucar

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 15 11:03:06 2002
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Horace Heffner <hheffner mtaonline.net>
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Subject: Re: Quadrupole antennas and novel resonance systems
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	Dear Horace,

	How would you reply to and educate persons who persist in
describing "quadrupole electron particles" ... or particles which have 4
poles ....?

	This comes from peole who see the term "quadrupole electron
resonance" or similar terms ...and then come to think there must exist a
sub atomic particle called a "quadrupole electron".  One of a multitude of
growing WWW URL Scientists ... who learn ALL ABOUT physics from WWW URL
web site contributions.... the better the graphics.... the "more truth"
..otherwise, Why would "THEY" they put it on the web!

	


		

On Sat, 15 Jun 2002, Horace Heffner wrote:

> One means of creating multipole antennas is to use multipole lobes and
> excite them with differing waveforms.  This is complex.
> 
> In my amateur opinion, a more interesting and quicker-cheaper-better means
> of creating a wide variety of simple quadrupole antenna designs is to mix
> inductive current loop antenna elements (B generators) with capacitive
> lobes (E field generators.)  This means also can be combined with the first
> multi-lobe multi-driver waveform strategy, but this is probably not
> necessary to achieve any specific quadrupole configuration.
> 
> Of further interest is the arraying of multipole antennas to create a
> complex phased array type radiating surface.  A similar strategy can then
> be employed to build passive "multipole optics" devices which can perform a
> wide variety of multipole waveform funtions, including refraction,
> reflection, splitting, etc.  Of these, refraction might be of some
> communications interest as a means to split off or combine segments of
> broadband communications using only passive mass produced devices.
> 
> The simplest form of passive quadrupole reflectors/refractors can be made
> by arraying conductive rods and circles.  The corresponding simple form of
> active quadrupole antenna would then consist of an array of loop and lobe
> antenna elements yet to be described.
> 
> A loop and lobe element of an entenna consists simply of an antenna lobe,
> which carries current to its tip and thereby charges the tip - as in any
> ordinary simple lobe antenna.  However, one or more loops are included in
> the lobe in order to create an out-of phase magnetic field. This is
> equivalent to combining two radiating elements into one in order to achive
> qaudrupole radiation.  A second mirror image lobe is then added and the two
> connected to a simple power source, such as a coaxial cable connected to an
> oscillator.
> 
> The following is one possible loop and lobe design (courrier type required
> to see this):
> 
>             -----                     -----
>             |   |                     |   |
>             ----|---------- ----------|----
>     -------------         | |         -------------
>                           | |
>                         --|--
>                         |   |
>                         |   | Coax
> 
> 
> The corresponding passive element might look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>             -----                     -----
>             |   |                     |   |
>             ----|---------------------|----
>     -------------                     -------------
> 
> 
> 
> Or this:
> 
>             -----                     -----
>             |   |                     |   |
>             -----                     -----
>     -----------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> There is an innumerable number of similar active and passive antenna designs.
> 
> Of further interest is the possibility of placing an active mutipole array
> at one end of a waveguide and one or more passive arrays at the other.
> Alternatively, an active array could be placed interior to a waveguide, and
> one or more passive arrays placed at the ends.  The purpose of this is to
> create a resonator which can build up large standing wave fields, and which
> can create a highly collimated beam of the desired type.
> 
> Further functionality  might be obtained by placing the antenna systems in
> an appropriate dielectric.  This provides a better matching of the energy
> in the E and B components of the fields for similar element sizes.  A
> further permutaion is the use of plates or plate/rod combinations instead
> of simple rods for the E generating components.
> 
> If desirable gravitomagnetic effects can be obtained from appropriate
> quadrupole radiation, or the reflection of such, then it appears such an
> antenna system could provide a good test bed for various theories,
> including the testing of the formation of gravity waves by reflection of
> electromagnetic waves.  If the radiation is sufficiently coherent, it may
> not be necessary that the reflector itself be superconducting, but merely
> necessary that it have the proper precision, composition, mix and geometry
> of dielectrics, conducting rods and circular conductors.  Combining these
> elements in a waveguide standing wave system is all that remains.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 15 11:21:45 2002
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Gravity Society   http://www.km2.de/gravity/
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	The Gravity Society has a temporary location:

	http://www.km2.de/gravity/

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 15 12:19:56 2002
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Quadrupole antennas and novel resonance systems
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At 1:59 PM 6/15/2, John Schnurer wrote:
>        Dear Horace,
>
>        How would you reply to and educate persons who persist in
>describing "quadrupole electron particles" ... or particles which have 4
>poles ....?


I have never seen anyone refer to a "quadrupole electron,"  but I suppose
that would be a natural type of mistake.  An electron is actually tripolar
(a magnetic dipole and electric monopole.)  There are numerous quadrupole
particles, but the electron is certainly not one of them to my knowledge.
The most commonly discussed electric quadrupoles (dual electric dipoles)
are nucleii, the simplest being deuterium.  Others can be taken from the
isotope list in the CRC Handbook, Section 11, including 6Li, 8Li, 9Li,
10Be, 10B, 11B, 12B, 13B, ...  Dipole particles are capable of emitting
single dipole photons, which have a unique dipolar nature (oscillation
mode) but contain no actual poles and supposedly no mass.  They have the
standard E/p = c momentum ratio of normal photons, however, and obey
Plank's law, E = h nu, which relates frequency to energy.  Thus the phrases
quadrupole particle, quadrupole photon, and quadrupole radiation all have
meaning, but a quadrupole electron does not exist - unless perhaps the term
might be applied to an electron involved as an element in a quadrupole
configuration, like, say, an electron-positron annihilation, where the two
magnetic dipoles merge into one.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 15 13:43:14 2002
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http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/

	Correct URL

On Sat, 15 Jun 2002, William Beaty wrote:

> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:20:26 +0200
> From: Geert Dijkhuis <icblsec wxs.nl>
> Subject: Russian BL Conference
> 
> Dear Colleagues,
> 
> please find attached the announcement of the 10th Russian
> Conference on Cold Nuclear Transmutation and Ball Lightning,
> scheduled for 29 September - 6 October 2002 in Dagomys
> near the city of Sochi where the Black See shore meets the
> Caucasus Mountain Range.
> 
> For those of you who attended or submitted papers to ISBL01 in
> St. Louis, USA, I have no word on progress with its proceedings.
> 
> For ISBL03 in Taiwan, Dr. Masashi Kamogawa expects to mail the
> announcement and first call for papers later this year in November.
> 
> Last January The Royal Society published a Theme Issue on Ball
> Lightning, compiled and edited by J. Abrahamson (Philosophical
> Transactions, Vol. 360, no. 1790). It relates in particular to the
> chemical aspects of BL.  And it includes previously unpublished
> eye witness reports from several countries. ICBL congratules the
> authors with this fine piece of scientific publishing. For online access,
> check with:
>                      www.pubs.royalsoc.ac.uk.
> 
> Since May last year, National Geographic Channel is broadcasting
> the Australian BL documentary Great Balls of Fire on a monthly basis
> in Europe. The reactions that reached me were favourable throughout.
> 
> Please continue you work on ball lightning. I hope to see many of you
> at the next symposium in Taipeh!
> 
> With greetings and best wishes,
> 
> 
> dr. Geert C. Dijkhuis
> ICBL Secretary
> Kortenaerlaan 7
> 4535 BV Terneuzen
> The Netherlands
> tel/fax +31 - 115 - 619 529
> 
> 
> 
> 

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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> The original sin (#1) was acquiring the thirst for knowledge, which still
> causes no end of trouble. Ask any CF scientist!

Maybe not exactly. One could also interpret the metaphor as eating
from the tree without the necessary experience and understanding to
beneficially live with the knowledge. Or -- don't give a kid a 
stick of dynamite to play with.

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Robert Stirniman wrote:

>Jed Rothwell wrote:
> > The original sin (#1) was acquiring the thirst for knowledge, which still
> > causes no end of trouble. Ask any CF scientist!
>
>Maybe not exactly. One could also interpret the metaphor as eating
>from the tree without the necessary experience and understanding to
>beneficially live with the knowledge.

I meant you get in trouble for investigating it. God sends the Archangel 
Robert Park who casts you out of the Garden of Eden, also known as the 
American Physical Society. As Robert Oppenheimer said in similar 
circumstances, it is more of a farce than a tragedy.

Turning to Stirniman's more serious views . . . I think we can never be 
prepared for new knowledge. We can never anticipate what it might do for 
us, or do to us.

On the other hand, I do not believe the iron law of unanticipated 
consequences, which some conservatives have advocated recently. It might be 
summarized, "things never go well." To exaggerate only slightly, it holds 
that everything we try to do always produces results opposite those we 
intended and hoped for. Our actions always make things worse instead of 
better, in ways we did not anticipate. For example, when we stop 
incinerating trash and move it from New York State to distant locations, 
this pollutes the air with diesel fuel more than incineration did. That law 
cannot always hold! Progress would never occur. If this law has any 
validity, the corollary must also be true: many of our plans work better 
than we hoped. Things are often not so bad after all. That has often been 
my observation. If CF can be made practical, I expect it will eliminate the 
energy crisis much faster than even optimistic people now believe possible. 
Faster than OPEC's worst nightmare.


>. . . Or -- don't give a kid a  stick of dynamite to play with.

Many people suspect that CF may be dangerous. It might lead to cheap or 
easily concealed tritium production. It might even allow some sort of 
nuclear chain reaction. I hope not.

Before CF was revealed in 1989, Martin Fleischmann urged the U.S. 
government to make it secret. I am glad they ignored him. . . . For now, I 
am, anyway.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 15 15:24:59 2002
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Quadrupole antennas and novel resonance systems
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At 1:59 PM 6/15/2, John Schnurer wrote:
>        Dear Horace,
>
>        How would you reply to and educate persons who persist in
>describing "quadrupole electron particles" ... or particles which have 4
>poles ....?

Some corrections included below:

I have never seen anyone refer to a "quadrupole electron,"  but I suppose
that would be a natural type of mistake.  An electron is actually tripolar
(a magnetic dipole and electric monopole.)  There are numerous quadrupole
particles, but the electron is certainly not one of them to my knowledge.
The most commonly discussed electric quadrupoles (dual electric dipoles)
are nucleii, the simplest being deuterium.  Others can be taken from the
isotope list in the CRC Handbook, Section 11, including 6Li, 8Li, 9Li,
10Be, 10B, 11B, 12B, 13B, ...  Quadrupole particles are capable of emitting
single quadrupole photons, which have a unique quadrupolr nature (oscillation
mode) but contain no actual poles and supposedly no mass.  They have the
standard E/p = c momentum ratio of normal photons, however, and obey
Plank's law, E = h nu, which relates frequency to energy.  Thus the phrases
quadrupole particle, quadrupole photon, and quadrupole radiation all have
meaning, but a quadrupole electron does not exist - unless perhaps the term
might be applied to an electron involved as an element in a quadrupole
configuration, like, say, an electron-positron annihilation, where the two
magnetic dipoles merge into one.

Regards,

Horace Heffner

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 15 20:24:31 2002
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Subject: Re: Theology Correction, original and #2 sins
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 23:18:09 -0700
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> Jed Rothwell wrote:
> > The original sin (#1) was acquiring the thirst for knowledge, which
still
> > causes no end of trouble. Ask any CF scientist!
>
> Maybe not exactly. One could also interpret the metaphor as eating
> from the tree without the necessary experience and understanding to
> beneficially live with the knowledge. Or -- don't give a kid a
> stick of dynamite to play with.
>
In some ways of looking at it, the acquisition of self-knowledge is the
first sin and a primary source of both human accomplishment and travail.
Self-awareness and the use of symbols begins to separate one from direct and
innocent awareness and communion with Existence. Recapturing this is the
focus of a number of meditative practices, including Zen Buddhism and some
branches of Yoga. One confuses the essential "I" within each of us with
name, rank, serial number, things owned, etc. ad nauseum.

Wars are fought over trivial distinctions between "US" and "THEM", with
religious symbols among those most fiercely clung to. The deeper insight is
embracive and non-dual.

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 15 20:36:42 2002
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Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:36:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: CF might be dangerous?
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Just a note on the subject by name.

Energy in ANY form is dangerous once you acquire enough of it.


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 16 06:24:00 2002
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Subject: Re: CF might be dangerous?
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 09:18:40 -0700
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Jed said:

<snip>

> Many people suspect that CF may be dangerous. It might lead to cheap or
> easily concealed tritium production. It might even allow some sort of
> nuclear chain reaction. I hope not.
>
> Before CF was revealed in 1989, Martin Fleischmann urged the U.S.
> government to make it secret. I am glad they ignored him. . . . For now, I
> am, anyway.

There have been a few reports of sudden extreme bursts of energy from CF
experiments. Fleischmann emphasized "positive feedback" as a source of error
in calorimetry. By positive feedback he means that increased cell
temperature accelerates CF reactions -- as well as chemical reactions in
general.

It is repeatedly stated that if one measures energy production and estimates
the volume of matter that energy is coming from, the energy density is of
nuclear magnitude, which led F&P to claim an "unknown nuclear reaction" in
the first place. Thus, until the basic mechanism and conditions are well
understood, there is a possibility of runaway conditions in CF reactors. The
fission "chain reaction" is similar to 'positive feedback'.

Jed has urged propagation of CF demo devices as way of utilizing market
forces to push the technology forward. If the mechanisms aren't well
understood, there is a finite possibility that energy runaways could occur
in one or more of such devices. I'm not throwing cold water on cold fusion;
careless use of gasoline will burn your house down. It's just that we don't
know all the rules yet.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 16 08:11:34 2002
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I would like to explore the opposite point of view, that CF is not dangerous in
anyway.  We now know that CF reactions occur in small, isolated domains, rather
than throughout the bulk material as first thought by Pons and Fleischmann.  We
also know that the reaction only occurs in a special, solid environment which
is difficult to create.  Once this environment is destroyed, the reaction
stops.  Therefore, a definite upper limit exists for the amount of energy such
a reaction can suddenly release, and this limit is mainly set by nature rather
than by the engineering skill of the designer.

This behavior is directly opposite to the behavior of a fission reactor, the
danger of which has colored our thinking about nuclear energy in general.  In
this case, the environment is not the important factor except in a few reactors
having a special design.  Heat generation will continue in most power reactors
no matter what the temperature or physical state so long as fissile material is
present.  Therefore, this source of energy can quickly release large amounts of
energy and must be actively kept under control.   In short, the danger of this
power source depends on the skill of the designer, which has been very poor in
some cases.

Ed

Mike Carrell wrote:

> Jed said:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Many people suspect that CF may be dangerous. It might lead to cheap or
> > easily concealed tritium production. It might even allow some sort of
> > nuclear chain reaction. I hope not.
> >
> > Before CF was revealed in 1989, Martin Fleischmann urged the U.S.
> > government to make it secret. I am glad they ignored him. . . . For now, I
> > am, anyway.
>
> There have been a few reports of sudden extreme bursts of energy from CF
> experiments. Fleischmann emphasized "positive feedback" as a source of error
> in calorimetry. By positive feedback he means that increased cell
> temperature accelerates CF reactions -- as well as chemical reactions in
> general.
>
> It is repeatedly stated that if one measures energy production and estimates
> the volume of matter that energy is coming from, the energy density is of
> nuclear magnitude, which led F&P to claim an "unknown nuclear reaction" in
> the first place. Thus, until the basic mechanism and conditions are well
> understood, there is a possibility of runaway conditions in CF reactors. The
> fission "chain reaction" is similar to 'positive feedback'.
>
> Jed has urged propagation of CF demo devices as way of utilizing market
> forces to push the technology forward. If the mechanisms aren't well
> understood, there is a finite possibility that energy runaways could occur
> in one or more of such devices. I'm not throwing cold water on cold fusion;
> careless use of gasoline will burn your house down. It's just that we don't
> know all the rules yet.
>
> Mike Carrell

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 16 11:13:04 2002
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Subject: Re: CF might be dangerous?
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Ed Storms said:

> I would like to explore the opposite point of view, that CF is not
dangerous in
> anyway.  We now know that CF reactions occur in small, isolated domains,
rather
> than throughout the bulk material as first thought by Pons and
Fleischmann.  We
> also know that the reaction only occurs in a special, solid environment
which
> is difficult to create.  Once this environment is destroyed, the reaction
> stops.  Therefore, a definite upper limit exists for the amount of energy
such
> a reaction can suddenly release, and this limit is mainly set by nature
rather
> than by the engineering skill of the designer.

A thoughtful and measured response. The notion that the reaction destroys
the domain is consistent with most observations to date. the most successful
experiments have involved thin films and nanopowders in which perhaps only a
small percentage of the particles have the conditions necessary for the
reaction to occur. Yet, there are the few, scattered reports of sudden,
massive heat releases. I was thinking of a future time wherein the necessary
conditions were well understood and could be intentionally created by, say,
a variation of the techniques of microelectronics. I've often thought that
one of the missed opportunities of CF was Patterson's failure to sell out to
Motorola, which has deep pockets and a mastery of semiconductor
manufacturing techniques.

If the CF reaction destroys the active site, then the key consumable is the
active site, not the deuterium. This puts the economics of CF in a
completely different category than with plentiful deuterium as the
consumable. One might have, for example, a manufactured target wafer good
for X,XXX,XXX KJoules of heat, then it has to be replaced like a battery.
People who can make the wafers now sway the world. That is different from
extracting deuterium from the local lake or stream.

Competition for this scenario is heating up in the BLP camp, where Mills is
reporting a reaction between hydrogen and ionized helium in the vapor phase
with energy densities in the range 30 MW per cubic meter. Helium is the
catalyst, not destroyed, and the fuel ultimately is water from which
hydrogen is extracted by a fraction of the energy released.

There is much to learn, friends, before we can have the victory party.
>
> This behavior is directly opposite to the behavior of a fission reactor,
the
> danger of which has colored our thinking about nuclear energy in general.
In
> this case, the environment is not the important factor except in a few
reactors
> having a special design.  Heat generation will continue in most power
reactors
> no matter what the temperature or physical state so long as fissile
material is
> present.  Therefore, this source of energy can quickly release large
amounts of
> energy and must be actively kept under control.   In short, the danger of
this
> power source depends on the skill of the designer, which has been very
poor in
> some cases.
>
Ed is correct on this. Given the general conditions for a fission reaction,
the problem is to contain it, not to initiate it. The problem with CF has
been to initiate it reliably.

Mike Carrell




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 16 12:29:33 2002
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Subject: Mercury versus electronic sphygmomanometers
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See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/16/health/16BLOO.html

This is an interesting debate over whether to replace first-principle 
medical instruments with computerized digital versions. Similar issues 
often arise in experiments. Some surprising quotes:

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Tools Gauging Blood Pressure Raise Questions

By GINA KOLATA

. . . The metal in the aneroid devices can fatigue, making readings 
inaccurate. So manufacturers recommend that they be recalibrated every six 
months or so, often asking that they be returned to the companies for 
service. But Dr. Roccella says that is seldom done.

. . . Electronic devices use physical measurements and mathematical 
formulas to calculate pressure, but some blood pressure experts say they 
are unsatisfied by the data that the companies provide.

"What is the accuracy of these and how are they recalibrated?" Dr. Roccella 
asked. He said that because companies keep the algorithms secret from 
competitors, it is impossible for outsiders to independently assess the 
devices.

"This is not to say that the new digital devices cannot be accurate. And it 
is not to say that aneroids can't be useful," he said. "But how do we know 
that this is so?" . . .

"Sometimes these devices give readings that are very wrong," Dr. Jones 
said, adding that the errors can be 30, 40, even 50 points.

At a recent meeting, Dr. Jones described the case of an elderly woman who 
was receiving high doses of blood pressure lowering drugs for what looked 
like an alarmingly high reading. Her systolic pressure, the pressure on 
vessels when the heart contracts, was 170 millimeters. Normal is 120.
Her pressure had been measured with an electronic device. When it was 
tested with a mercury sphygmomanometer, it actually was 90. In trying to 
lower what they thought was a dangerously high blood pressure, the woman's 
doctors had made her pressure so low that her brain did not get enough 
blood. As a result, Dr. Jones said, she had a stroke. . . .

"This is just a major, major thing," [one doctor] said. "Soon we won't know 
what anyone's blood pressure is."

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

You'd think doctors would double check blood pressure with another 
instrument when a patient has an acute problem relating to blood pressure. 
You would think a CF experimenter would also double check instruments, but 
some do not. People have too much faith in instruments.

The print version of this story said that digital sphygmomanometer software 
is "secret" and held by manufacturers. That's outrageous. Full, remarked, 
source code should be posted on the net. The code should be reviewed by 
independent experts before the instruments are approved for sale. Keeping 
it secret is like keeping the ingredients to blood pressure medication secret.

- Jed

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Mike Carrell wrote:

> Ed Storms said:
>
> > I would like to explore the opposite point of view, that CF is not
> dangerous in
> > anyway.  We now know that CF reactions occur in small, isolated domains,
> rather
> > than throughout the bulk material as first thought by Pons and
> Fleischmann.  We
> > also know that the reaction only occurs in a special, solid environment
> which
> > is difficult to create.  Once this environment is destroyed, the reaction
> > stops.  Therefore, a definite upper limit exists for the amount of energy
> such
> > a reaction can suddenly release, and this limit is mainly set by nature
> rather
> > than by the engineering skill of the designer.
>
> A thoughtful and measured response. The notion that the reaction destroys
> the domain is consistent with most observations to date. the most successful
> experiments have involved thin films and nanopowders in which perhaps only a
> small percentage of the particles have the conditions necessary for the
> reaction to occur. Yet, there are the few, scattered reports of sudden,
> massive heat releases.

Mike, I know of only two such reports.  Mizuno observed a cell that heated up,
remained hot for about a day, and was kept cool in a bucket of water.  While
this amount of energy is large by common experience, it was not in the category
of a danger.

Pons and Fleischmann described melting a 1 cm cube of Pd which burned through
the bench and melted into the cement floor.  Unfortunately, this description
makes no sense, much like clues found at a crime scene that are in conflict
with expectations.  As a result, we do not know exactly what happened.  No
photographs exist and witness testimony is in conflict with expected behavior
of common materials.  One witness said a burned hole about 4" in diameter was
seen in the Bakelite bench and a hole was melted in the cement floor.  I even
tried heating a similar pieced of loaded Pd with a torch in an attempt to
duplicate the observations, but without success. Even a glob of molten Pd will
not melt through a glass beaker, burn through a Bakelite bench, and still be
intact when it hits the floor.  Furthermore, the hole in the bench would be
expected to be only slightly larger than the size of the hot metal, because
such material does not self propagate a fire.

Other people have run hundreds of active samples and have never experienced a
behavior even remotely close to these reports, as far as I know.

> I was thinking of a future time wherein the necessary
> conditions were well understood and could be intentionally created by, say,
> a variation of the techniques of microelectronics. I've often thought that
> one of the missed opportunities of CF was Patterson's failure to sell out to
> Motorola, which has deep pockets and a mastery of semiconductor
> manufacturing techniques.

I agree, this is the way the effect will be initiated in the future, after the
big boys get into the act.

>
>
> If the CF reaction destroys the active site, then the key consumable is the
> active site, not the deuterium. This puts the economics of CF in a
> completely different category than with plentiful deuterium as the
> consumable. One might have, for example, a manufactured target wafer good
> for X,XXX,XXX KJoules of heat, then it has to be replaced like a battery.
> People who can make the wafers now sway the world. That is different from
> extracting deuterium from the local lake or stream.

It is not clear that the nuclear reaction destroys an active site.  More
likely, the burst of energy heats the site and causes it to lose enough D to
stop the reaction.  The site becomes reactivated when it has cooled and has
reabsorbed enough D.  However, the life-time of such material is a major issue
that has not been studied.

>
>
> Competition for this scenario is heating up in the BLP camp, where Mills is
> reporting a reaction between hydrogen and ionized helium in the vapor phase
> with energy densities in the range 30 MW per cubic meter. Helium is the
> catalyst, not destroyed, and the fuel ultimately is water from which
> hydrogen is extracted by a fraction of the energy released.
>
> There is much to learn, friends, before we can have the victory party.

Amen to that.

Ed

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Edmund Storms wrote:
[snip]
> Pons and Fleischmann described melting a 1 cm cube of Pd which burned through
> the bench and melted into the cement floor.  Unfortunately, this description
> makes no sense, much like clues found at a crime scene that are in conflict
> with expectations.  As a result, we do not know exactly what happened.  No
> photographs exist and witness testimony is in conflict with expected behavior
> of common materials.  One witness said a burned hole about 4" in diameter was
> seen in the Bakelite bench and a hole was melted in the cement floor.  I even
> tried heating a similar pieced of loaded Pd with a torch in an attempt to
> duplicate the observations, but without success. Even a glob of molten Pd will
> not melt through a glass beaker, burn through a Bakelite bench, and still be
> intact when it hits the floor.  Furthermore, the hole in the bench would be
> expected to be only slightly larger than the size of the hot metal, because
> such material does not self propagate a fire.

One possibility that springs to mind, though perhaps somewhat far
fetched, is that the Pd liberated massive amounts of neutrons from its
surface reactions which mostly escaped the Pd itself, but were largely
absorbed in the surrounding material, generating heat locally. This
might make the surroundings hot, while the Pd stayed relatively "cool".
Other possibilities are hydrinos (same scenario), or maybe gamma/x-rays.
[snip]

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
> [snip]
> > Pons and Fleischmann described melting a 1 cm cube of Pd which burned through
> > the bench and melted into the cement floor.  Unfortunately, this description
> > makes no sense, much like clues found at a crime scene that are in conflict
> > with expectations.  As a result, we do not know exactly what happened.  No
> > photographs exist and witness testimony is in conflict with expected behavior
> > of common materials.  One witness said a burned hole about 4" in diameter was
> > seen in the Bakelite bench and a hole was melted in the cement floor.  I even
> > tried heating a similar pieced of loaded Pd with a torch in an attempt to
> > duplicate the observations, but without success. Even a glob of molten Pd will
> > not melt through a glass beaker, burn through a Bakelite bench, and still be
> > intact when it hits the floor.  Furthermore, the hole in the bench would be
> > expected to be only slightly larger than the size of the hot metal, because
> > such material does not self propagate a fire.
>
> One possibility that springs to mind, though perhaps somewhat far
> fetched, is that the Pd liberated massive amounts of neutrons from its
> surface reactions which mostly escaped the Pd itself, but were largely
> absorbed in the surrounding material, generating heat locally. This
> might make the surroundings hot, while the Pd stayed relatively "cool".
> Other possibilities are hydrinos (same scenario), or maybe gamma/x-rays.

While it is impossible to know whether this happened or not, because Pons and
Fleischmann made no effort to find out, such emissions have never been detected at
this level in any subsequent experiment.  My approach is to put this claim in the
category of a nonevent, and ignore it completely.  If P-F wanted the world to
believe them, they would have taken photographs or preserved the damaged
equipment.  In the absence of these normal and expected actions, I have to assume
they did not seek belief, hence the claim is not exactly as described.

Regards,
Ed


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Edmund Storms wrote:

>If P-F wanted the world to believe them, they would have taken photographs 
>or preserved the damaged equipment.  In the absence of these normal and 
>expected actions, I have to assume they did not seek belief, hence the 
>claim is not exactly as described.

Perhaps they figured no one would ever believe it anyway, so why bother.

Mizuno regrets that he did not preserve better data from his massive 
heat-after-death event, and that he did not call in more witnesses. He does 
have a pen recorder trace from the first day of the reaction, and Akimoto 
did witness it. Mizuno thought he would be able to reproduce the effect 
later on.

I do not understand why P-F treated the evidence from this incident in such 
a cavalier manner. It reflects badly on their judgment and professionalism. 
Many harsh skeptics have said this proves P&F have no credibility. I do not 
know what to make of it. I agree it is odd behavior and it does hurt their 
credibility somewhat, but by 1991 cold fusion was widely replicated, and 
their credibility was no longer an issue.

Sometimes I doubt we will ever get to the bottom of this. On the other 
hand, assuming CF will be recognized someday, and studied intensely by 
thousands of researchers, if anything like this can happen it will surely 
happen again. Ten years after the rebirth of the field we should be pretty 
sure one way or the other.

I hope P&F exaggerated or were mistaken somehow, and this melting incident 
did not happen. I hope it cannot happen. But I get a spooky feeling it did 
occur. Fleischmann is devious at times, but he is honest, outspoken and 
fearless. He says and does whatever he likes. The Gestapo arrested him and 
killed his father. A person who escapes that is not intimidated by academic 
skeptics or the editor of Nature. He does not fret about other people's 
opinions or worry much about danger. Jean-Pierre Vigier is another crusty 
old CF scientist who cannot be intimidated. He was a member of French 
Resistance during WWII. After he had a spirited argument with an 
intimidating skeptic he said to me, "such people do frighten me. I used to 
shoot German officers in the back of the head, and escape on a bicycle."

- Jed

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I wrote:

Jean-Pierre Vigier . . . said to me, "such people do frighten me. I used to 
shoot German officers in the back of the head, and escape on a bicycle."

I meant "do not frighten me," obviously. Try saying it with a French 
accent. "I shot z'em in ze back of ze 'ed . . ." He demonstrated the action 
with his fingers. He had a fierce, cold stare I shall not forget.

- Jed

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In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Mon, 17 Jun 2002 07:48:36 -0600:
Hi,
[snip]
>> > Pons and Fleischmann described melting a 1 cm cube of Pd which burned through
[snip]
>> One possibility that springs to mind, though perhaps somewhat far
>> fetched, is that the Pd liberated massive amounts of neutrons from its
>> surface reactions which mostly escaped the Pd itself, but were largely
>> absorbed in the surrounding material, generating heat locally. This
>> might make the surroundings hot, while the Pd stayed relatively "cool".
>> Other possibilities are hydrinos (same scenario), or maybe gamma/x-rays.
>
>While it is impossible to know whether this happened or not, because Pons and
>Fleischmann made no effort to find out, such emissions have never been detected at
>this level in any subsequent experiment.  

How many subsequent experiments used a 1 cm cube of Pd? The volume and
shape are important, because of the distance from the centre to the
nearest side, especially if the electrical contact is in the centre of
the cube (or sphere). No matter how small the electrical gradient within
the metal, it will determine the average drift direction of charged
particles migrating through the metal. If the contact is in the centre,
then all such drift will be toward the centre, and consequently things
are going to get crowded in there, if left long enough.


>My approach is to put this claim in the
>category of a nonevent, and ignore it completely.  

I think that's what everyone has done, though it may be a mistake to do
so. I think that it may be worth trying to repeat, taking note of what I
wrote above, and after talking to Fleischmann first.

>If P-F wanted the world to
>believe them, they would have taken photographs or preserved the damaged
>equipment.  In the absence of these normal and expected actions, I have to assume
>they did not seek belief, hence the claim is not exactly as described.

I also expect that it is not exactly as described, though I think it may
be worth trying to tease out the differences.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Mon, 17 Jun 2002 07:48:36 -0600:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >> > Pons and Fleischmann described melting a 1 cm cube of Pd which burned through
> [snip]
> >> One possibility that springs to mind, though perhaps somewhat far
> >> fetched, is that the Pd liberated massive amounts of neutrons from its
> >> surface reactions which mostly escaped the Pd itself, but were largely
> >> absorbed in the surrounding material, generating heat locally. This
> >> might make the surroundings hot, while the Pd stayed relatively "cool".
> >> Other possibilities are hydrinos (same scenario), or maybe gamma/x-rays.
> >
> >While it is impossible to know whether this happened or not, because Pons and
> >Fleischmann made no effort to find out, such emissions have never been detected at
> >this level in any subsequent experiment.
>
> How many subsequent experiments used a 1 cm cube of Pd?

I don't think anyone has tried a 1 cm cube, but all other shapes produced nothing like
this.

> The volume and
> shape are important, because of the distance from the centre to the
> nearest side, especially if the electrical contact is in the centre of
> the cube (or sphere). No matter how small the electrical gradient within
> the metal, it will determine the average drift direction of charged
> particles migrating through the metal. If the contact is in the centre,
> then all such drift will be toward the centre, and consequently things
> are going to get crowded in there, if left long enough.

The D does not diffuse and get crowded at the center.  This is not how diffusion
works.  Diffusion only occurs down an activity gradient.  Once the activity anywhere
is equal to the source, diffusion stops. Therefore, the highest concentration is
always on the surface. In the real world, the Pd cracks and the D diffuses out through
the cracks as D2.  Therefore, it is impossible to achieve a significant composition
within such a large sample, no matter where the lead is attached.  In any case, I
don't think anyone is going to invest in a 1 cm cube of Pd with the remote possibility
that after weeks of electrolysis, the sample might melt through the container.

>
>
> >My approach is to put this claim in the
> >category of a nonevent, and ignore it completely.
>
> I think that's what everyone has done, though it may be a mistake to do
> so. I think that it may be worth trying to repeat, taking note of what I
> wrote above, and after talking to Fleischmann first.

You are welcome to try.  Good luck.

>
>
> >If P-F wanted the world to
> >believe them, they would have taken photographs or preserved the damaged
> >equipment.  In the absence of these normal and expected actions, I have to assume
> >they did not seek belief, hence the claim is not exactly as described.
>
> I also expect that it is not exactly as described, though I think it may
> be worth trying to tease out the differences.

But for what end?  If it fails to work, you would need years of work to determine why
not.  I would rather do an experiment over which I have more control and more
certainty that the claims were true.

Regards, Ed

>
>
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> ....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Edmund Storms wrote:
>
> >If P-F wanted the world to believe them, they would have taken photographs
> >or preserved the damaged equipment.  In the absence of these normal and
> >expected actions, I have to assume they did not seek belief, hence the
> >claim is not exactly as described.
>
> Perhaps they figured no one would ever believe it anyway, so why bother.

If this were the reasoning, then I would wonder about their other claims.

>
>
> Mizuno regrets that he did not preserve better data from his massive
> heat-after-death event, and that he did not call in more witnesses. He does
> have a pen recorder trace from the first day of the reaction, and Akimoto
> did witness it. Mizuno thought he would be able to reproduce the effect
> later on.

I know the feeling.  I also had some great success early in the work which I
thought would be easy to reproduce.  Fortunately, the computer kept all the
data.

>
>
> I do not understand why P-F treated the evidence from this incident in such
> a cavalier manner. It reflects badly on their judgment and professionalism.
> Many harsh skeptics have said this proves P&F have no credibility. I do not
> know what to make of it. I agree it is odd behavior and it does hurt their
> credibility somewhat, but by 1991 cold fusion was widely replicated, and
> their credibility was no longer an issue.
>
> Sometimes I doubt we will ever get to the bottom of this. On the other
> hand, assuming CF will be recognized someday, and studied intensely by
> thousands of researchers, if anything like this can happen it will surely
> happen again. Ten years after the rebirth of the field we should be pretty
> sure one way or the other.

The only explanation I can believe is that massive pieces of Pd, like those
used by both P-F and Mizuno, are able to store enough Pd that the surface
reaction can be sustained after electrolysis stops by ions moving from the
interior to the surface.  In this way, the sample can stay hot longer than
observed using small samples.   However, this temperature has to be lower than
the ignition temperature of Bakelite, because when heated this hot, I found
that the D2 was released very quickly through a crack that formed.  So I
believe Mizuno, but not P-F, at least the part about burning through the table
and melting the cement.

Ed

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 17 16:43:20 2002
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Looks like the digital transmission towers are up and running in a lot of areas. The
FCC news says "all analog TV licenses will be revoked in 2006".

 http://100kwatts.tmi.net/listings.html


http://www.topozone.com/finddms.asp

Regards,     Frederick

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 17 16:53:25 2002
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Is "Dean, Almost Duh Moine" still on vortex?

I'd like to contact him.

Regards,  Frederick



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On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I do not understand why P-F treated the evidence from this incident in such
> a cavalier manner. It reflects badly on their judgment and professionalism.
> Many harsh skeptics have said this proves P&F have no credibility. I do not
> know what to make of it. I agree it is odd behavior and it does hurt their
> credibility somewhat, but by 1991 cold fusion was widely replicated, and
> their credibility was no longer an issue.

It's part of the "inventor's disease."   I wrote about it regarding
Free Energy devices, but it applies equally to any anomaly in physics:

   RULES FOR INVENTORS http://amasci.com/freenrg/rules1.html

   Second rule: if it is a real anomaly, I might kill it.

   If it's a small piece of a new field of science, then there is a *very*
   large chance that I won't understand what's causing it.  I may
   accidentally extinguish it and never get it back again.  I've heard
   laments from several inventors that they rebuilt their devices to
   improve them, and they never worked again.  So, DON'T take apart the
   original invention!  Don't move it to another location.  Don't turn the
   power off and back on.  Just moving your arm a bit might eliminate the
   conditions which allowed success!  Once you have it working, videotape
   the heck out of it, call in eyewitnesses, perform experiments, maybe
   even build several copies and get them working.  Stay paranoid that the
   phenomena might vanish at any time, never to return.

In other words, treat anomalies like precious gifts, rather than like
common phenomena which can be created any time we desire them.  The Muses
don't like to be ignored, and will quickly withdraw their gifts!  :)


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 18 02:04:17 2002
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Hi Fred,

Yup, I'm here.

On Mon, 17 Jun 2002 17:48:23 -0500, "Frederick Sparber"
<fjsparber earthlink.net> wrote:

>Is "Dean, Almost Duh Moine" still on vortex?
>
>I'd like to contact him.
>
>Regards,  Frederick
>
>

-- Dean -- from (almost) Des Moines -- KB0ZDF

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On 6/17/02 2:38 PM, "Edmund Storms" <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> The only explanation I can believe is that massive pieces of Pd, like those
> used by both P-F and Mizuno, are able to store enough Pd that the surface
> reaction can be sustained after electrolysis stops by ions moving from the
> interior to the surface.  In this way, the sample can stay hot longer than
> observed using small samples.   However, this temperature has to be lower than
> the ignition temperature of Bakelite, because when heated this hot, I found
> that the D2 was released very quickly through a crack that formed.  So I
> believe Mizuno, but not P-F, at least the part about burning through the table
> and melting the cement.
> 
> Ed


I have been very busy with other matters, but looking out the corner of my
eye at this Meltdown and "CF Might be Dangerous" threads.

I was surprised that both Ed and Jed did not take note of what Charles
Beaudette wrote in his book "Excess Heat: Why Cold Fusion Research
Prevailed." On page 36 Beaudette reveals a statement (which Beaudette
obtained in his book research) by graduate student of Stan Pons, Kevin
Ashley. Ashley described the lab scene the morning after the meltdown, which
was evidently much more like an explosion. Ashley described a **one-foot**
diameter hole in the thick black lab counter and under the hole a "...pretty
good sized pit in the concrete floor. It may have been as much as four
inches deep." Dust from the explosion was still in the air -- must have been
mighty fine dust not to have settled out!

Even more memorable to Ashley were the looks on the faces of P&F:

"What really surprised me was that Stan and Martin Fleischmann had these
looks on their faces as though they were the cat that had just swallowed the
canary. They were clearly not displeased with this mess. They were happy
about what had happened. I was rather surprised by this; very surprised by
this."

He should not have been. Clearly, IF the lab condition was as stated, it
seems reasonably intuitively clear (although the numbers should be run for
such a Pd-hydride 1.0 cm cube) that this was not an "ordinary chemical
explosion" -- that it was nuclear, or nuclear-like in magnitude. Certainly
it was no hydrogen-oxygen "pop."  Thus the smiles. They had their final
proof.  Fleischmann has repeatedly stated to us at ICCFs that at the time he
was quite convinced that the whole subject should have been classified back
then. This is not bravado. I am convinced he means it. With that said, I am
very happy it was NOT classified. Well, we can thank Steve Jones for
something after all!

Yes, cold fusion is inherently dangerous and the military either have
already or will be taking notice soon enough. How can it fail to when Dr.
Edward Teller's right hand man, Dr. Lowell Wood of Star Wars/BMD fame
attended both ICCF7 (1998) and ICCF8(2000). Lowell stated to numerous
attendees that he was very impressed with the CF results and was "going to
do something about it."  There have been other military-connected attendees
too. The word is spreading, but this does not mean that action will be
taken.  One need only recall the lapses by the intelligence community prior
to 9/11.

There have been other explosions too. One CF scientist I know with
connections to the military already in place has pursued active interest in
CF-explosions. He showed me at his lab a rather large chunk of steel (10-20
pounds) that had been mangled and melted, he said. This man, by the way, is
known for his habit of understatement. I shall leave his name off this
public forum.

Another historic CF explosion (in 1989) that should be looked into occurred
at another federal lab in the SF area -- I think the Lawrence Berkeley lab,
if that is its proper name.  Little information has come out about this and
what the reaction to it was.

Beaudette's book, by the way -- it's second edition just out -- is available
either through Amazon.com (whom we supply as exclusive distributor) or
directly through us.

Cheers...

Gene

Dr. Eugene F. Mallove
Editor-in-Chief, Infinite Energy Magazine
Director, New Energy Research Laboratory
PO Box 2816
Concord, NH 03302-2816
   editor infinite-energy.com
   www.infinite-energy.com
Ph: 603-228-4516
Fx: 603-224-5975


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http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/06/17/australia.teleporting.reut/index=
.
html

 scientists claim teleporting success


CANBERRA, Australian (Reuters) -- In a breakthrough out of the realms of
Star Trek, scientists in Australia have successfully teleported a laser bea=
m
of light from one spot to another in a split second but warn: don't sell th=
e
car yet.=20

A team of physicists at the Australian National University (ANU) announced
on Monday they had successfully disembodied a laser beam in one location an=
d
rebuilt it in a different spot about one meter away in the blink of an eye.

Project leader Dr. Ping Koy Lam said there was a close resemblance between
what his team had achieved and the movement of people in the science fictio=
n
series Star Trek but reality was still light years off beaming human beings
between locations.=20

"In theory there is nothing stopping us from doing it but the complexity of
the problem is so huge that no one is thinking seriously about it at the
moment," Lam told a news conference.

However Lam said science was not too far from being able to teleport solid
matter from one location to another.

CNN NewsPass VIDEO=20
A group of Australian scientists have successfully replicated teleportation=
,
CNN Chris Wheelock reports (June 17)

Play video=20
<javascript:LaunchVideo('/tech/2002/06/17/cw.aust.teleport.reut.','300k');>
=20

"My prediction is...it will probably be done by someone in the next three t=
o
five years, that is the teleportation of a single atom," said Lam, who has
worked on teleporting since 1997.

But he said humans posed a near-impossible task as we are made up of
zillions of atoms -- quantified by a one with 27 zeroes -- so forget Star
Trek where the Starship Enterprise crew step into a transporter, vaporise,
then re-assemble elsewhere.

The laser beam was destroyed during teleporting which is achieved using a
process known as quantum entanglement.

However the breakthrough opens up enormous possibilities for future
super-fast and super-secure communications systems, such as quantum
computers over the next decade.
World race
Physicists think quantum computers could outperform classical computers wit=
h
enormous memory and the ability to solve problems millions of times faster.

Teleportation became one of the hottest topics among physicists in quantum
mechanics in the past decade, after the IBM lab in the United States
provided theoretical underpinning for the work in 1993. Since then about 40
laboratories globally have been experimenting in this area.

Although teams in California and Denmark were the first to do preliminary
work on teleportation, the ANU team of scientists from Australia, Germany,
France, China and New Zealand was the first to achieve a successful trial
with 100 percent reliability.

The idea is if quantum particles like electrons, ions, and atoms have the
same properties, they are essentially the same.

So if the properties of quantum particles making up an object are reproduce=
d
in another particle group, there would be a precise duplication of the
object, so only information about the particles' properties need be
transmitted, not the particles.

The inability to pass the information reliably has been a major stumbling
block in past "entanglement" experiments.

ANU team member Warwick Bowen said they first successfully teleported a
laser beam on May 23 to their great surprise, and repeated the success time
after time in following weeks using their small-car-sized transporter,
ironing out certain glitches.

"Even in Star Trek they realize there are problems with teleportation,"
Bowen told the news conference.

"It is such a complicated experiment that nobody knows whether their
particular set-up is going to work until you do it....and it turns out our
system is very good."

Copyright 2002 Reuters </interactive_legal.html#Reuters> . All rights
reserved.  This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or
redistributed.


=20
=20
=20
=20


RELATED STORIES:=20
=95 Quantum-light processor may thrash supercomputers
</2001/TECH/science/05/17/quantum.computer/?related>
May 17, 2001
=95 Scientists bring light to a halt in the lab
</2001/NATURE/01/19/stop.light/?related>
January 19, 2001

RELATED SITE:=20
=95 Australian National University <http://www.anu.edu.au/>

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TECHNOLOGY TOP STORIES:
=95 Workers 'based in tech universe'
</2002/TECH/industry/06/17/telecommuting.ap/index.html>
=95 Aussie scientists claim teleporting success
</2002/TECH/science/06/17/australia.teleporting.reut/index.html>
=95 New phones from Sony Ericsson, Nokia
</2002/TECH/ptech/06/17/mobiles.reut/index.html>
=95 Web war: Mozilla vs. Microsoft
</2002/TECH/internet/06/17/browser.war.revival.ap/index.html>
=95 Beijing closes all cyber cafes
</2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/06/16/beijing.fire/index.html>

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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>FW: Australian scientists claim teleporting success - June 17, 2002<=
/TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Monaco"><TT><BR>
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/06/17/australia.teleporting.reut/index=
.html<BR>
<BR>
</TT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><H1> scientists claim teleporting success<=
BR>
</H1><HR ALIGN=3DCENTER SIZE=3D"1" WIDTH=3D"100%"NOSHADE><HR ALIGN=3DCENTER SIZE=3D"1=
" WIDTH=3D"100%"NOSHADE><B>CANBERRA, Australian (Reuters) --</B> <B>In a break=
through out of the realms of Star Trek, scientists in Australia have success=
fully teleported a laser beam of light from one spot to another in a split s=
econd but warn: don't sell the car yet.</B> <BR>
<BR>
A team of physicists at the Australian National University (ANU) announced =
on Monday they had successfully disembodied a laser beam in one location and=
 rebuilt it in a different spot about one meter away in the blink of an eye.=
 <BR>
<BR>
Project leader Dr. Ping Koy Lam said there was a close resemblance between =
what his team had achieved and the movement of people in the science fiction=
 series Star Trek but reality was still light years off beaming human beings=
 between locations. <BR>
<BR>
&quot;In theory there is nothing stopping us from doing it but the complexi=
ty of the problem is so huge that no one is thinking seriously about it at t=
he moment,&quot; Lam told a news conference. <BR>
<BR>
However Lam said science was not too far from being able to teleport solid =
matter from one location to another. <BR>
<BR>
<B>CNN NewsPass VIDEO</B> <BR>
A group of Australian scientists have successfully replicated teleportation=
, CNN Chris Wheelock reports (June 17) <BR>
<BR>
Play video &lt;javascript:LaunchVideo('/tech/2002/06/17/cw.aust.teleport.re=
ut.','300k');&gt; <BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
&quot;My prediction is...it will probably be done by someone in the next th=
ree to five years, that is the teleportation of a single atom,&quot; said La=
m, who has worked on teleporting since 1997. <BR>
<BR>
But he said humans posed a near-impossible task as we are made up of zillio=
ns of atoms -- quantified by a one with 27 zeroes -- so forget Star Trek whe=
re the Starship Enterprise crew step into a transporter, vaporise, then re-a=
ssemble elsewhere. <BR>
<BR>
The laser beam was destroyed during teleporting which is achieved using a p=
rocess known as quantum entanglement. <BR>
<BR>
However the breakthrough opens up enormous possibilities for future super-f=
ast and super-secure communications systems, such as quantum computers over =
the next decade. <BR>
<H3>World race<BR>
</H3>Physicists think quantum computers could outperform classical computer=
s with enormous memory and the ability to solve problems millions of times f=
aster. <BR>
<BR>
Teleportation became one of the hottest topics among physicists in quantum =
mechanics in the past decade, after the IBM lab in the United States provide=
d theoretical underpinning for the work in 1993. Since then about 40 laborat=
ories globally have been experimenting in this area. <BR>
<BR>
Although teams in California and Denmark were the first to do preliminary w=
ork on teleportation, the ANU team of scientists from Australia, Germany, Fr=
ance, China and New Zealand was the first to achieve a successful trial with=
 100 percent reliability. <BR>
<BR>
The idea is if quantum particles like electrons, ions, and atoms have the s=
ame properties, they are essentially the same. <BR>
<BR>
So if the properties of quantum particles making up an object are reproduce=
d in another particle group, there would be a precise duplication of the obj=
ect, so only information about the particles' properties need be transmitted=
, not the particles. <BR>
<BR>
The inability to pass the information reliably has been a major stumbling b=
lock in past &quot;entanglement&quot; experiments. <BR>
<BR>
ANU team member Warwick Bowen said they first successfully teleported a las=
er beam on May 23 to their great surprise, and repeated the success time aft=
er time in following weeks using their small-car-sized transporter, ironing =
out certain glitches. <BR>
<BR>
&quot;Even in Star Trek they realize there are problems with teleportation,=
&quot; Bowen told the news conference. <BR>
<BR>
&quot;It is such a complicated experiment that nobody knows whether their p=
articular set-up is going to work until you do it....and it turns out our sy=
stem is very good.&quot; <BR>
<BR>
Copyright 2002 Reuters &lt;/interactive_legal.html#Reuters&gt; . All rights=
 reserved. &nbsp;This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, o=
r redistributed.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
RELATED STORIES: <BR>
=95 Quantum-light processor may thrash supercomputers &lt;/2001/TECH/science/=
05/17/quantum.computer/?related&gt; <BR>
May 17, 2001<BR>
=95 Scientists bring light to a halt in the lab &lt;/2001/NATURE/01/19/stop.l=
ight/?related&gt; <BR>
January 19, 2001<BR>
<BR>
RELATED SITE: <BR>
=95 Australian National University &lt;http://www.anu.edu.au/&gt; <BR>
<BR>
Note: Pages will open in a new browser window<BR>
External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive.<BR>
<BR>
TECHNOLOGY TOP STORIES:<BR>
=95 Workers 'based in tech universe' &lt;/2002/TECH/industry/06/17/telecommut=
ing.ap/index.html&gt; <BR>
=95 Aussie scientists claim teleporting success &lt;/2002/TECH/science/06/17/=
australia.teleporting.reut/index.html&gt; <BR>
=95 New phones from Sony Ericsson, Nokia &lt;/2002/TECH/ptech/06/17/mobiles.r=
eut/index.html&gt; <BR>
=95 Web war: Mozilla vs. Microsoft &lt;/2002/TECH/internet/06/17/browser.war.=
revival.ap/index.html&gt; <BR>
=95 Beijing closes all cyber cafes &lt;/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/06/16/beijing=
.fire/index.html&gt; <BR>
<BR>
(More &lt;/TECH/&gt; )<BR>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 18 07:22:22 2002
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From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Off Topic, TV Tinnitus?
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 08:16:15 -0500
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In May of 1981 a UHF TV (Channel 14,  470-476 MHz) transmitting facility began the
first UHF TV broadcasting from Sandia Crest the mountain peak near Albuquerque, New
Mexico with an estimated power of 1,000 kilowatts effective radiated power (ERP).
Concurrently, with no previous hearing problems at 48 years of age I developed
Tinnitus symptoms and sought medical treatment at the Lovelace Medical Center in
Albuquerque, some 30 miles from my rural residence.

Much to everyone's surprise the "Tinnitus" stopped completely  when the door of the
electrically shielded audiology booth was closed.

I ran some rather subjective experiments and calculations and found that
the "Tinnitus" was the 15.75 kilohertz TV signal synch pulse which drives the
transmitter to full power for about 1.0 microseconds to start each of the 525 picture
lines at a 30 frame per second framing rate and the video signal "noise".

At the time, between the efforts of the FCC and
EPA the Channel 14 Transmitter was taken off the mountain and relocated, and
subsequent UHF
facilities were seemingly operated at lower power. And the "Antenna Farm" on the crest
was reshuffled at other (VHF)frequencies and 100's of Translators are now used to
cover the broadcast area.

Over the past decade or so, up until the past few weeks ago I have had no "Tinnitus"
effects, but now that there is a construction scramble to meet the FCC "2006" deadline
for digital TV broadcasting the "effect" is back.

For those curious about membrane potentials, and how the "Demodulation" can occur,
this simulator can be used :

http://www.pys.bris.ac.uk/electrophysiology/goldman/viewit.html

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 9:44 AM
Subject: Fw: Tv Tower Height & Power

Ed,

Since most of the Albuquerque TV towers are on Sandia Crest at ~ 12 deg 12' 50" N 106
deg 26' 57" W, some 10,500 ft elevation above sea level, and I'm located at ~ 34 deg
41' 49" N 106 deg  46'  38" W at ~ 4,850 ft above sea level, the signals come in very
strong, regardless of atmospheric conditions.

Why all of the power? Especially on the Analog signal broadcasts where the Inner Ear
Membrane/Fluid can act as a "Diode" and Demodulate the UHF ANALOG TV signals and set
up an annoying "Tinnitus-Like" Noise in
hearing process of a lot of the population at signal levels orders of magnitude below
the ~ 1.0 mw/cm^2 biohazard level?

Hopefully this effect will disappear when the UHF Analog
TV stations are shut down nationwide in 2006?

http://100kwatts.tmi.net/listings.html

 http://www.topozone.com/finddms.asp


 F. J. Sparber




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 18 07:47:29 2002
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>
>
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/06/17/australia.teleporting.reut/index.html
>
>
>   scientists claim teleporting success
>
Has anyone seen a more technical description of what is claimed.  I've 
read all these news stories; but, they don't really make any sense to 
me.  Just what was teleported, coherent photons?  And was this an FTL event?

TIA,

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 18 09:10:54 2002
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Mysterious melt-down event
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 12:08:49 -0400
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I like Bill's advice.  First get it working!   Then get your evidence!  ...
and then and only then play with it, cautiousely and gently at first while
still maintaining the device's operation.  Keep very good notes and try
to analyze the why of every operation and its result so that maybe the
'tuning' that you performed can be replicated.  Pay special attention to 
whatever change produces an increase in the effect.

Standing Bear







On Monday 17 June 2002 20:58, William Beaty wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> > I do not understand why P-F treated the evidence from this incident in
> > such a cavalier manner. It reflects badly on their judgment and
> > professionalism. Many harsh skeptics have said this proves P&F have no
> > credibility. I do not know what to make of it. I agree it is odd behavior
> > and it does hurt their credibility somewhat, but by 1991 cold fusion was
> > widely replicated, and their credibility was no longer an issue.
>
> It's part of the "inventor's disease."   I wrote about it regarding
> Free Energy devices, but it applies equally to any anomaly in physics:
>
>    RULES FOR INVENTORS http://amasci.com/freenrg/rules1.html
>
>    Second rule: if it is a real anomaly, I might kill it.
>
>    If it's a small piece of a new field of science, then there is a *very*
>    large chance that I won't understand what's causing it.  I may
>    accidentally extinguish it and never get it back again.  I've heard
>    laments from several inventors that they rebuilt their devices to
>    improve them, and they never worked again.  So, DON'T take apart the
>    original invention!  Don't move it to another location.  Don't turn the
>    power off and back on.  Just moving your arm a bit might eliminate the
>    conditions which allowed success!  Once you have it working, videotape
>    the heck out of it, call in eyewitnesses, perform experiments, maybe
>    even build several copies and get them working.  Stay paranoid that the
>    phenomena might vanish at any time, never to return.
>
> In other words, treat anomalies like precious gifts, rather than like
> common phenomena which can be created any time we desire them.  The Muses
> don't like to be ignored, and will quickly withdraw their gifts!  :)
>
>
> (((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
> billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
> Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 18 09:18:15 2002
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Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 12:15:01 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Mysterious melt-down event
In-Reply-To: <B934B2F4.3197%editor infinite-energy.com>
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>I was surprised that both Ed and Jed did not take note of what Charles
>Beaudette wrote in his book "Excess Heat: Why Cold Fusion Research
>Prevailed." On page 36 Beaudette reveals a statement . . .

I did forget about this, and it is very important. It is the most detailed 
description of the incident yet published.

I am sure something happened that day, but without a detailed description, 
photos, a record of radiation levels, samples of the damaged equipment and 
so on, it is difficult to draw conclusions about what took place. It seems 
unlikely there could be a source of chemical fuel. On the other hand, 
chemistry labs do sometimes have bottles of reactive or explosive 
materials. From the description in Beaudette's book, I would suspect that 
someone came in the lab and detonated a bomb. That would not surprise me, 
given the harsh opposition CF soon met.

When the incident occurred, Pons should have evacuated the building, called 
in the bomb squad and photographed and sampled every scrap of material. 
There should have been a thorough investigation, like the one at SRI after 
the pressurized cell recombination explosion. The U. Utah event probably 
liberated enough energy to kill or seriously injure someone. It is 
incredibly irresponsible, and probably illegal, not to investigate a 
potentially fatal accident. Unfortunately, as far as I know, Pons and 
Fleischmann did nothing to preserve the data and investigate the incident. 
As I said, this reflects badly on their judgment and professionalism.


>Even more memorable to Ashley were the looks on the faces of P&F:
>
>"What really surprised me was that Stan and Martin Fleischmann had these 
>looks on their faces as though they were the cat that had just swallowed 
>the canary. They were clearly not displeased with this mess. They were 
>happy about what had happened. I was rather surprised by this; very 
>surprised by this."

I would have been appalled, not only surprised. I would have called the 
police & fire department immediately, even if they objected.


>Fleischmann has repeatedly stated to us at ICCFs that at the time he
>was quite convinced that the whole subject should have been classified 
>back then. This is not bravado. I am convinced he means it.

So am I. And I am glad he was not able to do that.


>Yes, cold fusion is inherently dangerous . . .

Let us hope the danger is self-limiting and it can be controlled easily. 
Many things are dangerous, such as bookshelves. They topple over and kill 
people during earthquakes in Japan, where people sleep on the floor.


>and the military either have already or will be taking notice soon enough.

I doubt the military has taken any notice, despite Dr. Wood's presence at 
the ICCF conferences. Anyway, the military has its hands full these days, 
with more immediate threats.


>The word is spreading, but this does not mean that action will be
>taken.  One need only recall the lapses by the intelligence community 
>prior to 9/11.

Precisely. And the lapses by industry and the DoE are infinitely larger. 
They have overlooked the energy generating potential of CF.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 18 09:27:37 2002
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Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:26:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Mysterious melt-down event
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On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

> Another historic CF explosion (in 1989) that should be looked into occurred
> at another federal lab in the SF area -- I think the Lawrence Berkeley lab,
> if that is its proper name.  Little information has come out about this and
> what the reaction to it was.

If it occurs in a high-pressure experiment, everyone can assume that there
was a pressure spike because of recombiner issues.  (And when scientists
in 1800 see a meteor fall from the sky, and later they find the large hot
rock in a small crater, everyone can rest assured that stones cannot fall
from the heavens, and the rock was probably just struck by lightning.)


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 18 09:42:51 2002
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Mysterious melt-down event
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On Tue, 18 Jun 2002, Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

> Ashley described the lab scene the morning after the meltdown, which
> was evidently much more like an explosion. Ashley described a **one-foot**
> diameter hole in the thick black lab counter and under the hole a "...pretty
> good sized pit in the concrete floor. It may have been as much as four
> inches deep." Dust from the explosion was still in the air -- must have been
> mighty fine dust not to have settled out!

I wonder what shape of palladium electrodes were being used.

Gut-level estimate of chemical explosives:  a volume the size of a pencil
eraser equals a couple small firecrackers.  If you detonate such a thing
in air while it's sitting on wood, the wood develops a small dent, as if
it had been struck by a ball-peen hammer.

If P&F were using platinum wire, then even if the electrode was immersed
in water, a chemical explosion couldn't have been stronger than a few
firecrackers.  But maybe they were running those "egg crate" experiments
with several hundred small plastic cells.  But even if those all detonated
at once, if the energy was chemical it's still like a bunch of
firecrackers going off.  It should only dent or crack the table at most.

If the explosion occurred on the desktop, how could it bore a four inch
hole in concrete?  It just can't, not unless the desktop was made of thick
steel (so the steel shrapnel did the job.)  Either it's a mystery, or they
were actually running a high-pressure cell.

(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 18 09:59:46 2002
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My first attempt to send this failed. Here is another try.
Ed

Edmund Storms wrote:

> "Eugene F. Mallove" wrote:
>
> > On 6/17/02 2:38 PM, "Edmund Storms" <storms2 ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The only explanation I can believe is that massive pieces of Pd, like those
> > > used by both P-F and Mizuno, are able to store enough Pd that the surface
> > > reaction can be sustained after electrolysis stops by ions moving from the
> > > interior to the surface.  In this way, the sample can stay hot longer than
> > > observed using small samples.   However, this temperature has to be lower than
> > > the ignition temperature of Bakelite, because when heated this hot, I found
> > > that the D2 was released very quickly through a crack that formed.  So I
> > > believe Mizuno, but not P-F, at least the part about burning through the table
> > > and melting the cement.
> > >
> > > Ed
> >
> > I have been very busy with other matters, but looking out the corner of my
> > eye at this Meltdown and "CF Might be Dangerous" threads.
> >
> > I was surprised that both Ed and Jed did not take note of what Charles
> > Beaudette wrote in his book "Excess Heat: Why Cold Fusion Research
> > Prevailed." On page 36 Beaudette reveals a statement (which Beaudette
> > obtained in his book research) by graduate student of Stan Pons, Kevin
> > Ashley. Ashley described the lab scene the morning after the meltdown, which
> > was evidently much more like an explosion. Ashley described a **one-foot**
> > diameter hole in the thick black lab counter and under the hole a "...pretty
> > good sized pit in the concrete floor. It may have been as much as four
> > inches deep." Dust from the explosion was still in the air -- must have been
> > mighty fine dust not to have settled out!
>
> I remember reading this, but had forgotten the source.  Thanks for the reminder,
> Gene.  The problem with this description is that it does not make sense.  The
> description requires the cube become sufficiently hot to vaporize the electrolyte,
> melt through the beaker, burn through the table, fall to the floor, melt into the
> cement, and then explode.  The sample must remain solid during this sequence, but
> remain hot enough to ignite Bakelite and melt cement.  The explosion would have to
> be sufficiently powerful and focused to blast a hole through the counter while
> creating a "pretty good sized pit in the concrete floor".  Even if CF actually
> generated this energy, the series of events requires the cube exhibit very unusual
> behavior.   This strange behavior combined with the absence of any documentation,
> make the claims impossible to believe.  Would anyone who witnessed such an event
> fail to take a photograph, yet repeatedly tell people about the event, and expect
> to be believed?  A rational person either gets some proof, or keeps the experience
> secret.
>
> >
> >
> > Even more memorable to Ashley were the looks on the faces of P&F:
> >
> > "What really surprised me was that Stan and Martin Fleischmann had these
> > looks on their faces as though they were the cat that had just swallowed the
> > canary. They were clearly not displeased with this mess. They were happy
> > about what had happened. I was rather surprised by this; very surprised by
> > this."
> >
> > He should not have been. Clearly, IF the lab condition was as stated, it
> > seems reasonably intuitively clear (although the numbers should be run for
> > such a Pd-hydride 1.0 cm cube) that this was not an "ordinary chemical
> > explosion" -- that it was nuclear, or nuclear-like in magnitude. Certainly
> > it was no hydrogen-oxygen "pop."  Thus the smiles. They had their final
> > proof.  Fleischmann has repeatedly stated to us at ICCFs that at the time he
> > was quite convinced that the whole subject should have been classified back
> > then. This is not bravado. I am convinced he means it. With that said, I am
> > very happy it was NOT classified. Well, we can thank Steve Jones for
> > something after all!
> >
> > Yes, cold fusion is inherently dangerous and the military either have
> > already or will be taking notice soon enough. How can it fail to when Dr.
> > Edward Teller's right hand man, Dr. Lowell Wood of Star Wars/BMD fame
> > attended both ICCF7 (1998) and ICCF8(2000). Lowell stated to numerous
> > attendees that he was very impressed with the CF results and was "going to
> > do something about it."  There have been other military-connected attendees
> > too. The word is spreading, but this does not mean that action will be
> > taken.  One need only recall the lapses by the intelligence community prior
> > to 9/11.
>
> Of course, the military will always try to convert any discovery into a method for
> killing, in the name of defense.  However, we now know a great deal more about the
> phenomenon than P-F even guessed.  This understanding shows that the methods being
> studied show no evidence for an explosive release of energy.  Even the tragedy at
> SRI can be explained as a chemical explosion, many of which we have all experienced
> without injury.  Of course, a military application can be imagined, but the extra
> energy generated in this application would not be produced by methods now being
> studied in civilian laboratories.
>
> >
> >
> > There have been other explosions too. One CF scientist I know with
> > connections to the military already in place has pursued active interest in
> > CF-explosions. He showed me at his lab a rather large chunk of steel (10-20
> > pounds) that had been mangled and melted, he said. This man, by the way, is
> > known for his habit of understatement. I shall leave his name off this
> > public forum.
>
> I suggest such unsupported claims be kept private because it is not possible to
> know whether they are true or not.  Indeed, I would not be surprised if skeptics
> make up such events just to put a damper on research.
>
> >
> >
> > Another historic CF explosion (in 1989) that should be looked into occurred
> > at another federal lab in the SF area -- I think the Lawrence Berkeley lab,
> > if that is its proper name.  Little information has come out about this and
> > what the reaction to it was.
>
> I think you are referring to the explosion at LNL, which was clearly chemical.  It
> was used by the skeptical administration to stop the work, thus suggesting a method
> all skeptics might use to hinder research.
>
> Ed

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 18 12:10:50 2002
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I've heard of electron spins before, but this is the first time I've 
heard that it might be possible to utilize it for some practical 
application.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases\2002\05\020517075731.htm .
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 18 14:53:59 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Mysterious melt-down event - frustration
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William Beaty wrote:

>I wonder what shape of palladium electrodes were being used.

It was a 1-cm cube of Pd, according to P&F and Beaudette. That is an 
unusual geometry. I do not think anyone tried it again.


>If the explosion occurred on the desktop, how could it bore a four inch
>hole in concrete?  It just can't . . .

That is the consensus of opinion. It just can't with chemical energy from 
that mass of reactants.

Some skeptics have raised doubts about Mizuno's heat after death event, 
suggesting various improbable scenarios. They said someone snuck into 
Mizuno's lab and removed water from the bucket, or accidentally spilled the 
water repeatedly, or that rats drank the water. It is easy to disprove 
these hypotheses. Mizuno checked the cell several times a day at random 
times, reading the thermocouple output, feeling the cell, and measuring the 
water level. A person entering the room to remove the water would also have 
to heat up the cell to fool Mizuno, who showed up at unpredictable times. 
The vermin hypothesis does not account for the heat, and it calls for 800 
very thirsty large rats to drink for 12 hours straight.

Storms & I are not exactly dismissing this, or suggesting improbable 
scenarios to explain it away, the way the skeptics try to deal with Mizuno, 
but I think both of us feel that there is not enough information to reach 
firm conclusions, or learn from this event. It has to be replicated, in any 
case. It must be reported carefully, in detail. No one gets a free pass, 
not even Fleischmann.

Even a person sympathetic to P&F is bound to feel doubts. Take the hole in 
the floor: I have heard different accounts of how big it was, ranging from 
barely noticeable to "a good-sized pit" (Beaudette, p. 35). People do 
sometimes overlook such things. It is plausible they did not notice a hole 
in the floor caused by a spilled bottle of acid years earlier. Was the hole 
in the table really a foot wide?!? Or was it smaller, as I have also heard. 
Perhaps Ashley's imagination was playing tricks on him, and the hole grows 
larger with every telling of the story. Such doubts and questions should 
have been eliminated forever for the cost of one role of 35mm film and a 
few Baggies to hold sample physical evidence.

This is terribly frustrating, because it would have been so EASY to 
eliminate doubts in this case -- much easier than preserving physical 
evidence from Mizuno's event. Mizuno's cathode was eventually sectioned and 
lost in destructive testing at various independent labs. He preserved and 
analyzed the physical evidence as much as he could. F&P evidently did not 
even try. It is hard -- very hard -- to believe that people I know to be 
conscientious, expert scientists would act this way. Why on earth didn't 
they cut out the tabletop and save it?!? You cannot patch such a large hole 
in a table. I suppose they threw the table out. Why didn't they recover 
samples of the Pd? Even if it vaporized in the last stage, they would have 
found traces in the tabletop and floor, which might have transmutations or 
who-knows-what in them.

Some people have suggested there may have been a DoE or DoD investigation 
of this event. That cannot be. The event would not be kept half secret. 
Fleischmann and Pons talked about it frequently from the beginning. If 
there had been a classified investigation, they would have been ordered to 
shut up. They are very conservative people who follow orders. Fleischmann 
sincerely wanted the whole field to be classified. He would have been happy 
to keep this event secret.

- Jed

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Mon, 17 Jun 2002 15:21:40 -0600:
Hi,
[snip]

>The D does not diffuse and get crowded at the center.  This is not how diffusion
>works.  Diffusion only occurs down an activity gradient.  Once the activity anywhere
>is equal to the source, diffusion stops. Therefore, the highest concentration is
>always on the surface. In the real world, the Pd cracks and the D diffuses 
[snip]
This is true where the particles involved carry no electric charge (i.e.
neutral atoms or molecules). However I'm basing my statement on the
understanding that at least some of the time, the D (or H) in the
cathode exists as a charged particle, and hence is subject to the
electric field gradient that exists in the cathode as a consequence of
the electron current flow out of the cathode (iow the positive charged
ions flow into the cathode). This is where the pressure comes from, and
I have done a "back of the envelope" calculation to determine it.
It works out at voltage-drop*ion charge / atomic volume.
Where the voltage drop is the actual voltage drop across the cathode
(quite small of course).
If this formula is correct, then much better results would appear
possible if the cathode were made from a semiconductor - a proton
conductor perhaps - such that the voltage drop could be of the order of
volts.
Another possibility is the use of a long Pd wire embedded in a block of
insulating material that doesn't permit the passage of hydrogen. The
power connected to one end of the wire, the other end immersed in the
electrolyte. 
These are essentially electromigration experiments, where hydrogen is
the migrating species.






Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 19 08:41:41 2002
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Subject: OFF TOPIC SETI home passes the ZettaFLOP mark
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 From a newsletter:

"PROJECT NEWS

SETI home continues to grow.

In May 2001 we recorded our 3 millionth user, in September we passed the 
ZettaFLOP (10^21 operations) mark - by far the largest computation ever 
performed (at least on Earth!), and recently we surpassed one million years 
of CPU time."

This is another unexpected benefit from the Internet. In 1990, few would 
have predicted that a project on this scale would be possible, or economical.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 19 11:48:09 2002
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Below is a very interesting piece from an article about Consciousness.
It sounds like they're describing half of all the scientist population
(but where their denial extends out to objects and concepts rather than
just to their own body.)  Think about it.  "Left-brained strategy of
denial and confabulation, no limits to the delusion."   Bullseye.

(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L


http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/zombie.html

"Even stranger is the world of people suffering from anosognosia. The
condition occasionally occurs after stroke damage to the right side of the
brain which leaves the patient paralysed on the left side of the body.
Despite their obvious paralysis, however, anosognosics claim that their
useless limbs work perfectly well.

" 'This has got to be the most peculiar thing I've ever seen in all of
neurology,' says Vilayanur Ramachandran [Ref: Iotm11], of the University
of California, San Diego who described his work with such patients to the
conference. "Here is somebody perfectly sane and rational, who watches her
arm not performing and yet claims she is not paralysed."


"When Ramachandran asked one patient to touch him on the nose, for
example, she insisted that she was doing so, even though her arm remained
limp at her side. When he asked her to clap, she beat the air with her
good arm but said she was clapping normally.  Another after failing
repeatedly to tie her shoe, insisted she had in fact tied it "with both
hands" - a point that normal individuals rarely bother to mention. This is
evidence that deep down, anosognosics may know the truth.

"If this were a purely psychological delusion, it should apply equally to
left and right-side paralysis. But anosognosia shows up almost exclusively
in people with paralysis on the left side. This suggests that there must
be specific neurological damage to the right side of the brain, says
Ramachandran.

"Anosognosia is a problem of the mind's belief system, not its perceptual
system, Ramachandran thinks.The mind needs a theory of the world in order
to organise and make sense of the constant stream of sensory inputs. But
the theory - making part of the brain must also be able to ignore inputs
that don't fit with its world view, lest every mistaken perception shake
us to our roots. In Ramachandran's hypothesis, this bull-headed theorist
resides in the left half of the brain.

"The right half of the brain, he thinks, acts as devil's advocate. When
too much conflicting data accumulates-for example, repeated awareness that
the left arm cannot move-the devil's advocate overcomes the left brain's
defence mechanisms and forces it to restructure its world view to fit the
new information.

"He thinks that in people with anosognosia "that mechanism - your devil's
advocate - is damaged, and the left brain is free to pursue a strategy of
denial and confabulation. There is no limit to the delusion."



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 19 12:55:32 2002
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Subject: Re: Some hyper-skeptics have 'anosognosia?'
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Fascinating! It sounds like some of the diseases described by 
Oliver  Sacks. I recommend his books.

- Jed

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Hi Bill.

Interesting post, although I would extend your
analysis to include "true Believers" along with
"ardent Skeptics". Both suffer from the same,
possibly neurological, problem. It's remarkable
how much the mechanics of our brains determine
our behavior and personality, I was reading
something just the other day about a particular
area of the brain which is active when listening
to music. Musicians have much more brain tissue in
this area, how about that??? Can't find the
original article, but here's a link.

http://www.boston.com/news/daily/08/music_brains.htm

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 2:45 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Some hyper-skeptics have 'anosognosia?'



Below is a very interesting piece from an article about Consciousness.
It sounds like they're describing half of all the scientist population
(but where their denial extends out to objects and concepts rather than
just to their own body.)  Think about it.  "Left-brained strategy of
denial and confabulation, no limits to the delusion."   Bullseye.

(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L


http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/zombie.html

"Even stranger is the world of people suffering from anosognosia. The
condition occasionally occurs after stroke damage to the right side of the
brain which leaves the patient paralysed on the left side of the body.
Despite their obvious paralysis, however, anosognosics claim that their
useless limbs work perfectly well.

" 'This has got to be the most peculiar thing I've ever seen in all of
neurology,' says Vilayanur Ramachandran [Ref: Iotm11], of the University
of California, San Diego who described his work with such patients to the
conference. "Here is somebody perfectly sane and rational, who watches her
arm not performing and yet claims she is not paralysed."


"When Ramachandran asked one patient to touch him on the nose, for
example, she insisted that she was doing so, even though her arm remained
limp at her side. When he asked her to clap, she beat the air with her
good arm but said she was clapping normally.  Another after failing
repeatedly to tie her shoe, insisted she had in fact tied it "with both
hands" - a point that normal individuals rarely bother to mention. This is
evidence that deep down, anosognosics may know the truth.

"If this were a purely psychological delusion, it should apply equally to
left and right-side paralysis. But anosognosia shows up almost exclusively
in people with paralysis on the left side. This suggests that there must
be specific neurological damage to the right side of the brain, says
Ramachandran.

"Anosognosia is a problem of the mind's belief system, not its perceptual
system, Ramachandran thinks.The mind needs a theory of the world in order
to organise and make sense of the constant stream of sensory inputs. But
the theory - making part of the brain must also be able to ignore inputs
that don't fit with its world view, lest every mistaken perception shake
us to our roots. In Ramachandran's hypothesis, this bull-headed theorist
resides in the left half of the brain.

"The right half of the brain, he thinks, acts as devil's advocate. When
too much conflicting data accumulates-for example, repeated awareness that
the left arm cannot move-the devil's advocate overcomes the left brain's
defence mechanisms and forces it to restructure its world view to fit the
new information.

"He thinks that in people with anosognosia "that mechanism - your devil's
advocate - is damaged, and the left brain is free to pursue a strategy of
denial and confabulation. There is no limit to the delusion."




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 19 14:17:03 2002
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Subject: RE: Some hyper-skeptics have 'anosognosia?'
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>Interesting post, although I would extend your analysis to include "true 
>Believers" along with "ardent Skeptics". Both suffer from the same,
>possibly neurological, problem.

Indeed, and that should worry people who firmly believe in minority views 
and unpopular ideas such as cold fusion. You *cannot* fully trust your own 
judgement, because it is a product of the brain, which can malfunction like 
any other organ. That is also why all claims and observations must be 
replicated.

This is a paradox. On one hand you must eschew the notion that in natural 
science the majority wins and truth are defined by vote. On the other hand, 
you should not completely ignore other people's opinions because your own 
view may be distorted by disease, wishful thinking, or many other factors.

Francis Bacon was the first to deal with this paradox extensively, and 
effectively in my opinion. It can never be fully overcome, but he described 
useful guidelines for living with it. Many philosophers fail to reach a 
conclusion, or to make practical recommendations. They are interesting to 
read, but you seldom come away with a list of useful ideas. Some give other 
lists, such as Nietzsche's fifty handy justifications for destroying 
civilization, and David Hume's top ten reasons why we can never be sure 
*anything* is real.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 19 22:49:12 2002
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Subject: RE: Some hyper-skeptics have 'anosognosia?'
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On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> This is a paradox. On one hand you must eschew the notion that in natural
> science the majority wins and truth are defined by vote. On the other hand,
> you should not completely ignore other people's opinions because your own
> view may be distorted by disease, wishful thinking, or many other factors.

And as that article mentioned, we need an internal "devil's advocate"
which isn't part of our egoistic side; a part that doesn't shy away from
dealing with inconvenient or painful truths or viewpoints.  Something like
Socrates' daemon.

>
> Francis Bacon was the first to deal with this paradox extensively, and
> effectively in my opinion.

Doesn't sound familiar.  Was this in a particular article, or scattered
about?

I hope he put "consciously halting all the lies you tell yourself"
right at the top.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
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Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 20 09:19:11 2002
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	Spin Waves
	Electron Spin

	a]	electrons are considered sub atomic particles that exhibit
		 various and different properties and behavior.  These
		 properties and the behavior they exhibit are described
		 from OBSERVATIONS.  
	b]	Experimental physics is name of the discipline that
enjoins the actual physical work that the observations are cataloged
from.
	c]	Then there are persons and groups who develop models to
try to make some sense of these observations, and these model and theories
often guide further experiments to try to learn more.

	d]	Quantum physics is one type or set of theories based 
on observations and the theories are mathmatical constructs which try to
find rules or postulations that will maybe help humankind try to make use
of the science and do something worthwhile... or sometimes not so
worthwhile with the knowledge.

	e] QED, quantum electro dynamics, is a  part of quantum
physics is a series of Mathmatical constructs, and
educated guesses or THEORY and Mathmatical construct Based on Some
Interpretations of Some observations of
Some experimental set ups which: 
	i]	 MAY allow the user to do the following:
	ii]	One May be able to predict the behavior of Some atoms
and-or Some sub atomic particles Some of the time under Some conditions 
		IF:

	1) All parts of the whole business follows certian rules which are
part of these theories and suppositions which come from and are based
on Some persons' interpretation of some of these observations of some
experiments....

	Spin Waves:

	A]	ONE of the models Quantum Physics models of the behavior
of the electron gives the electron "spin". 
 
	B]	In a number of experiments the Interpetations of the 
Behavior of electrons in the experiment may be Explained by the
Model which gives the REASON for some aspects of Some of the behavior as
being due to this SPIN ...the theory of spinning nuclear, atomic and
sub-atomic particles, notably ELECTRONS and their spin and the Effects of
Spin.
	C]	Some of the collective behaviors of materials in certain
physical experimental situations are postulated to be due to: 

	SPIN WAVES.... a term which is used to help build and form a model
to explain a THEORY based on the what is THOUGHT to be the collective
effects and interactions of the "spin" when attempting to help use
physics for real world applications.

	This, in turn is an attempt to help us do a better job of using
our Theoretical Understanding of matter.

	D]	Recap: Spin Waves is a term used in Part of a Theory about
what May be responsible for Some Interpertations of Some Observations made
regarding the Believed actions of and interactions of Electrons and
Material.

	E]	One of the primary real world Results of this whole
business ....from lowercase (a) to  to Uppercase [D] is:

	There exist  certain magnetic
and electronic effects in some material constructions which may be used to
sense magnetic fields by
observing the effects of these "Spin Waves". 

	The idea is these  "waves" are generated in alternating very
thinlayers of magnetic and non magnetic materials.   This is an
applications in a narrow area or brand of Applied Materials Sciences.

	Advertising writers and sometimes the news writers have called
this "spin-tronics"

	One general set of ideas resulting from the APPLICATION such
theoretical wanderings is the Giant Magneto Resistance or GMR exhibited in
some of these layered Materials Sciences systems. 

	SO:

	These spin Wave theories have been used to make real world sensors
of magnetic fields which one can actually buy as commercial products.


	Does this help anyone stay on the track?

	
	


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 20 11:25:15 2002
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Subject: Interesting paper mentioning gravitational experiments
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 22:22:01 +0400
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Hi,

This paper reference Podkletnov's experiments and Aquino.


http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/0206046

From: "Jozef Sima" <sima chtf.stuba.sk>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:30:12 GMT   (7kb)

Electromagnetic Influence on Gravitational Mass - Theory, Experiments,
and Mechanism of the Solar Corona Heating

Authors: Miroslav Sukenik, Jozef Sima
Comments: 10 pages, LaTeX, submitted to Spacetime and Substance
Report-no: SS-02-2
Subj-class: General Physics

 Based on the model of Expansive Nondecelerative Universe, the aim of the
 present contribution is to contribute to the theoretical rationalization of some
 experiments, in particular of those performed by Podkletnov and de Aquino
 and devoted to the gravitational mass cessation, to offer a mechanistic
 explanation of the Solar corona heating, and to propose an experiment to
 verify the explanation of the heating in the Earth conditions. 


hamdi ucar


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 20 17:23:24 2002
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Subject: Matters of chirality
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Gentlemen,

Over the past few months, I have come to owe many a tip of the hat to Colin
Quinney, who bravely forwarded my experiment missives into the clutches of a
number of discussion groups, including this one.  Since I am back on Vort
for now, I'll give Colin a break, and post some thoughts here and now!

Some of you might recall that back into the winter, we had continued to see
milligram level temporary weight losses in sealed ampoules containing
nano-particle media, when said vessels were shaken and re-weighed.  This in
turn had been a matter I had posted for a short spell back in 1999 or 2000
on FreeNRG-L.   In late 2001, we had picked the trail back up again, with
some better experiments.  See the first paper of the current set:

http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/pixies.htm

Anyway, several other parties have seen hints of the effect.  The official
word from Scott Little back in the early part of the year was that he saw
some hints of an effect as well, however he felt it was at a marginal level,
and likely involved artifacts of various sorts.  Fairly stated - and my
gratitude to Scott and Hal is on-going.

One of my answers to the question of verification was to simply continue
with shaking and weighing experiments, using as many materials and different
balances as I could find.  By early spring, we made a key discovery!  There
were some materials, not necessarily even nano-particle sized, that
exhibited a temporary slight weight INCREASE after mechanical agitation.
The primary factor involved seemd to be...molecular chirality or handedness!
For the most part, the materials showing milligram level weight increases
after agitation or vibrating were all strongly right handed materials, such
as sucrose, chitin, and corn syrup.  See the next paper in the set:

http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/kozyrev.htm

Around this time, I became aware of some scholarly armchair debate about
theories of the inherent handedness of the universe, and how chiral
materials may be prone to anomalies when placed into the Eotvos experiment.
>From out of this, I found hints that a very common material - indeed one
that is the darling of all that is New Age - is an extraordinarily chiral
material...alpha quartz!

Now I have turned from agitating bottles of powders and grains, to shaking
and vibrating whole crystals, with weighing before and after.  Been doing
this with sucrose, L-tartaric acid, tellurium, and now both right and left
handed quartz points.  They love me at the local metaphysical supply store:

http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/ChiralQuartz150602A.htm

The latest results?  I have now experimented with right and left handed
quartz.  What I am seeing - or what I SEEM to be seeing - is that the right
handed crystals show a more consistent weight change anomaly - always toward
the increase side - than left handed.  Left handed crystals seem to be
minimal or null in their results (given the weigh - vibrate - weigh
protocol)

Now in fairness, these are still magnitudes that are down in the grass - so
to speak - and will require much replication and repeating.  For crystals in
the 20 to 60 gram range, these sorts of weight changes are between a half a
milligram and 3 or 4 milligrams.  But they keep showing up...so I keep
playing...

So there you are.  Tendered for your enjoyment and speculation.  No
theories, really, just things that make you go hmmmmm.

NR






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Subject: About Matters of chirality: Methods
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	Dear Nick,

	For those of us who have not been following the entire chain of
events will you please describe the Experimental technique employed to
measure these effects?

	The main reasons for having a Clear and Well presented accurate
description include but are not limited to:

	A)	Helping those who wish to replicate the work.
	B)	Understanding possible artifact, sources of artifact,
		  magnitude of artifact, magnitude of signal levels, type
		  of instrument(s) used to acquire data.
	C)	Helping the community understand definitions of the
handedness and how this property of handedness is determined
and-or measured when sample materials are being prepared, both commercial
preparation and those materials prepared by the investigator.


				Thanks,

						J 
	

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 20 18:24:02 2002
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Subject: Re: About Matters of chirality: Methods
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John,

Thanks for inquiring.  The three links I provided to the experimental papers
on my website should be adequate.  Otherwise, we can discuss off-list,
however it is not easy to put it all into a short e-mail.  The posted papers
should be adequate enough to get most people started.

Best,

NR

----- Original Message -----
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Nick Reiter <reit ezworks.net>
Cc: vortex-L <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 8:59 PM
Subject: About Matters of chirality: Methods


>
>
> Dear Nick,
>
> For those of us who have not been following the entire chain of
> events will you please describe the Experimental technique employed to
> measure these effects?
>
> The main reasons for having a Clear and Well presented accurate
> description include but are not limited to:
>
> A) Helping those who wish to replicate the work.
> B) Understanding possible artifact, sources of artifact,
>   magnitude of artifact, magnitude of signal levels, type
>   of instrument(s) used to acquire data.
> C) Helping the community understand definitions of the
> handedness and how this property of handedness is determined
> and-or measured when sample materials are being prepared, both commercial
> preparation and those materials prepared by the investigator.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> J
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 20 19:30:20 2002
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Nick Reiter <reit ezworks.net>
cc: vortex-L <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: About Matters of chirality: Methods
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	Dear Nick,

	What ARE the site URLs, please?

		Thank you.

					JH

On Thu, 20 Jun 2002, Nick Reiter wrote:

> John,
> 
> Thanks for inquiring.  The three links I provided to the experimental papers
> on my website should be adequate.  Otherwise, we can discuss off-list,
> however it is not easy to put it all into a short e-mail.  The posted papers
> should be adequate enough to get most people started.
> 
> Best,
> 
> NR
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
> To: Nick Reiter <reit ezworks.net>
> Cc: vortex-L <vortex-L eskimo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 8:59 PM
> Subject: About Matters of chirality: Methods
> 
> 
> >
> >
> > Dear Nick,
> >
> > For those of us who have not been following the entire chain of
> > events will you please describe the Experimental technique employed to
> > measure these effects?
> >
> > The main reasons for having a Clear and Well presented accurate
> > description include but are not limited to:
> >
> > A) Helping those who wish to replicate the work.
> > B) Understanding possible artifact, sources of artifact,
> >   magnitude of artifact, magnitude of signal levels, type
> >   of instrument(s) used to acquire data.
> > C) Helping the community understand definitions of the
> > handedness and how this property of handedness is determined
> > and-or measured when sample materials are being prepared, both commercial
> > preparation and those materials prepared by the investigator.
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > J
> >
> >
> >
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 20 19:45:54 2002
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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 22:55:14 -0700
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Nick Reiter wrote:
 
> Some of you might recall that back into the winter, we had continued to see
> milligram level temporary weight losses in sealed ampoules containing
> nano-particle media, when said vessels were shaken and re-weighed. 

Welcome back!

Shaking is somewhat equivalent to hitting the material with impulse
sound waves.  You impart a broad band mechanical energy to the
particles.

There are numerous accounts of acoustic levitation of large objects: 
Keeley, Leedskalin, even Tibetian Monks.

Have you tried stimulating the samples with sound waves?  Ideally you
could sweep a broad range of frequencies while recording any weight
changes.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 20 19:59:33 2002
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Subject: Re: About Matters of chirality: Methods
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John,

The URLs were in the text of my initial posting to Vort, about 2 hours ago.
They are right there.  Here they are again:

http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/pixies.htm

http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/kozyrev.htm

http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/ChiralQuartz150602A.htm

Read them in order, for best effect.


If your browser can't discern them, I will send them to you off-list.

NR



----- Original Message -----
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Nick Reiter <reit ezworks.net>
Cc: vortex-L <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: About Matters of chirality: Methods


>
>
> Dear Nick,
>
> What ARE the site URLs, please?
>
> Thank you.
>
> JH
>



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 20 20:58:01 2002
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Subject: RE: Matters of chirality
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 00:06:03 -0400
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Hi Nick.

Welcome back.

I have a paper of Kozyrev that was translated by the late Chris Bird,
in which he describes experiments where inelastic collisions occured,
causing a weight variation. If I remember correctly, the
experiments involved boxes loaded with lead shot that were shaken
mechanically. Perhaps you can try this along with your chiral
materials.

Kozyrev also claimed that there was a directional component to
this process, that is to say that one needed to align the shaking
to some fixed point in space. I think his paper on Time goes into
this is some detail, Russians have kindly posted some of Kozyrevs
papers on the net so hit google if you are thirsting...

Kozyrev claimed some pretty big changes, if I remember correctly.
If you find yourself "in the tall grass" perhaps something additional
is missing from the replications? Or Kozyrev was fudging (grin).
I found his papers very thought provoking, but thin on experimental
details. If you know of any technical russian translators contact
me offlist...

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Reiter [mailto:reit ezworks.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 8:20 PM
To: vortex-L
Subject: Matters of chirality



Gentlemen,

Over the past few months, I have come to owe many a tip of the hat to Colin
Quinney, who bravely forwarded my experiment missives into the clutches of a
number of discussion groups, including this one.  Since I am back on Vort
for now, I'll give Colin a break, and post some thoughts here and now!

Some of you might recall that back into the winter, we had continued to see
milligram level temporary weight losses in sealed ampoules containing
nano-particle media, when said vessels were shaken and re-weighed.  This in
turn had been a matter I had posted for a short spell back in 1999 or 2000
on FreeNRG-L.   In late 2001, we had picked the trail back up again, with
some better experiments.  See the first paper of the current set:

http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/pixies.htm

Anyway, several other parties have seen hints of the effect.  The official
word from Scott Little back in the early part of the year was that he saw
some hints of an effect as well, however he felt it was at a marginal level,
and likely involved artifacts of various sorts.  Fairly stated - and my
gratitude to Scott and Hal is on-going.

One of my answers to the question of verification was to simply continue
with shaking and weighing experiments, using as many materials and different
balances as I could find.  By early spring, we made a key discovery!  There
were some materials, not necessarily even nano-particle sized, that
exhibited a temporary slight weight INCREASE after mechanical agitation.
The primary factor involved seemd to be...molecular chirality or handedness!
For the most part, the materials showing milligram level weight increases
after agitation or vibrating were all strongly right handed materials, such
as sucrose, chitin, and corn syrup.  See the next paper in the set:

http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/kozyrev.htm

Around this time, I became aware of some scholarly armchair debate about
theories of the inherent handedness of the universe, and how chiral
materials may be prone to anomalies when placed into the Eotvos experiment.
>From out of this, I found hints that a very common material - indeed one
that is the darling of all that is New Age - is an extraordinarily chiral
material...alpha quartz!

Now I have turned from agitating bottles of powders and grains, to shaking
and vibrating whole crystals, with weighing before and after.  Been doing
this with sucrose, L-tartaric acid, tellurium, and now both right and left
handed quartz points.  They love me at the local metaphysical supply store:

http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/ChiralQuartz150602A.htm

The latest results?  I have now experimented with right and left handed
quartz.  What I am seeing - or what I SEEM to be seeing - is that the right
handed crystals show a more consistent weight change anomaly - always toward
the increase side - than left handed.  Left handed crystals seem to be
minimal or null in their results (given the weigh - vibrate - weigh
protocol)

Now in fairness, these are still magnitudes that are down in the grass - so
to speak - and will require much replication and repeating.  For crystals in
the 20 to 60 gram range, these sorts of weight changes are between a half a
milligram and 3 or 4 milligrams.  But they keep showing up...so I keep
playing...

So there you are.  Tendered for your enjoyment and speculation.  No
theories, really, just things that make you go hmmmmm.

NR






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 20 21:30:11 2002
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References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020620222508.26397D-100000 college.antioch-college.edu> <000d01c218cf$53a7d4c0$8e3dee3f@zanzibar>
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It's interesting to me about the particle sizes mentioned in the pixies
website,
because according to Dewey Larson's Reciprocal System , e.g.

http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/satz/index.htm
http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/cwkvk/index.htm


the unit of length is 45.6 nm, about the same as the diameter for which
the
effect is maximum.   At 45.6nm the properties of matter become very
different,
The reason dust particles in outer space tend to be that size.

When matter is pressed closer than that, since that is unit length, they
really
can't get closer, so they disperse in time and appear to be closer, i.e.
length is quantized and that is the minimum, one unit of length.

That is a good explanation of the Casimir effect also, because below
that length
as it appears to us, gravity becomes repulsive, but the ever present 
"expansion of the universe" becomes attractive.

I know that doesn't make much sense unless you're somewhat familiar with
the Reciprocal System.  The theory does show its validity by being able
to calculate from fundamental principles many things that conventional
theories
can't, such as melting points of elements, lifetimes of particles, etc.

Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale Arizona

Nick Reiter wrote:
> 
> John,
> 
> The URLs were in the text of my initial posting to Vort, about 2 hours ago.
> They are right there.  Here they are again:
> 
> http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/pixies.htm
> 
> http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/kozyrev.htm
> 
> http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/ChiralQuartz150602A.htm
> 
> Read them in order, for best effect.
> 
> If your browser can't discern them, I will send them to you off-list.
> 
> NR
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
> To: Nick Reiter <reit ezworks.net>
> Cc: vortex-L <vortex-L eskimo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:25 PM
> Subject: Re: About Matters of chirality: Methods
> 
> >
> >
> > Dear Nick,
> >
> > What ARE the site URLs, please?
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > JH
> >

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 21 00:35:37 2002
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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Subject: Re: Interesting paper mentioning gravitational experiments
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>Hamdi Posted;
>
>  Based on the model of Expansive Nondecelerative Universe, the aim of the
>  present contribution is to contribute to the theoretical 
>rationalization of some
>  experiments, in particular of those performed by Podkletnov and de Aquino
>  and devoted to the gravitational mass cessation, to offer a mechanistic
>  explanation of the Solar corona heating, and to propose an experiment to
>  verify the explanation of the heating in the Earth conditions.


Hum, this question is primarly for Hoyt Stearns. Does this Expansive 
Nondecelerative Universe match Dewey B Larson's?

-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 21 00:35:47 2002
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>
>
>I have a paper of Kozyrev that was translated by the late Chris Bird,
>in which he describes experiments where inelastic collisions occured,
>causing a weight variation. If I remember correctly, the

This posting reminds me of the interview of Bootstrap Cox on the Art 
Bell show. He claims to be using a chain saw engine to power his 
drive which will levitate two cement blocks. Given what such a 
machine would do to Newton's third law, I'm going to try to get to 
Reno to see this!

-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 21 00:37:40 2002
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Tim, who posts on SVPVRIL posted this question.


Hello to you all,

Any physics people out there who may be able to shed some light on this one.

When light is reflected off a mirror, is it actually reflected?  does it hit
the mirror, stop, and then return? Or is it a case of a photon being absorbed
by an  electron, being spun round a bit, then emitted from the 
electron and back
out of the mirror.

Surely reflection involves stopping something, then starting it again in the
opposite direction - you can't do that with light can you?

Cheers to you all
Tim

I assume that the photon hits the reflective surface and bounces off 
it like a beach ball.

-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 21 03:54:51 2002
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Subject: Re: Matters of chirality
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Hi, Terry,

Thanks for the welcome back.

I have tried using speakers and transducers to apply sound at various
orientations.  So far, not much in the way of results.

The effect, for whatever it may involve, seems to almost be more related to
amplitude, inertia, and I sometimes think direction of travel during shaking
or agitation.  If one uses manual shakes for example, I seem to get better
results (generally) if I use jerky non-linear strokes.  Its almost as though
the mass being shaken or vibrated actually has to experience some serious
accelerations and decelerations, even if only over a short span of travel.

The Tibetan levitation reference fascinates me to no end.  We actually
brought it up in another paper on our website:
http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/merchantball.htm

Best,

NR

----- Original Message -----
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: Matters of chirality


> Nick Reiter wrote:
>
> > Some of you might recall that back into the winter, we had continued to
see
> > milligram level temporary weight losses in sealed ampoules containing
> > nano-particle media, when said vessels were shaken and re-weighed.
>
> Welcome back!
>
> Shaking is somewhat equivalent to hitting the material with impulse
> sound waves.  You impart a broad band mechanical energy to the
> particles.
>
> There are numerous accounts of acoustic levitation of large objects:
> Keeley, Leedskalin, even Tibetian Monks.
>
> Have you tried stimulating the samples with sound waves?  Ideally you
> could sweep a broad range of frequencies while recording any weight
> changes.
>
> Terry
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 21 03:56:01 2002
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From: "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
To: <knagel gis.net>
Cc: "vortex-L" <vortex-L eskimo.com>
References: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMEDJDEAA.knagel gis.net>
Subject: Re: Matters of chirality
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 06:54:13 -0400
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Thankya,

Wow - thanks for the insight.  Inelastic collisions! hmm

Should you ever have the opportunity, I would like to find out how to get a
copy of that paper describing the lead shot box.  It does not sound like any
of the ones I have seen.  Good translated Kozyrev is SOOO hard  to find!

NR

----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:06 AM
Subject: RE: Matters of chirality


> Hi Nick.
>
> Welcome back.
>
> I have a paper of Kozyrev that was translated by the late Chris Bird,
> in which he describes experiments where inelastic collisions occured,
> causing a weight variation. If I remember correctly, the
> experiments involved boxes loaded with lead shot that were shaken
> mechanically. Perhaps you can try this along with your chiral
> materials.
>
> Kozyrev also claimed that there was a directional component to
> this process, that is to say that one needed to align the shaking
> to some fixed point in space. I think his paper on Time goes into
> this is some detail, Russians have kindly posted some of Kozyrevs
> papers on the net so hit google if you are thirsting...
>
> Kozyrev claimed some pretty big changes, if I remember correctly.
> If you find yourself "in the tall grass" perhaps something additional
> is missing from the replications? Or Kozyrev was fudging (grin).
> I found his papers very thought provoking, but thin on experimental
> details. If you know of any technical russian translators contact
> me offlist...
>
> K.
>



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 21 04:47:59 2002
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In a message dated 6/21/2002 3:37:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> When light is reflected off a mirror, is it actually reflected?  does it hit
> the mirror, stop, and then return?

Light has many componenents to it that can not be seen with the eye, that do 
not get reflected by standard mirrors, and I believe that the magnetic 
component or the spin to the photon may penetrate the mirror and not be 
reflected.  Only another magnetic component or spinning particle may jam or 
reflect the mangetic components of light or the spin of the subatomic 
particles. 

Respectfully,


Thomas Clark
tom rhfweb.com
www.rhfweb.com\personal


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 6/21/2002 3:37:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">When light is reflected off a mirror, is it actually reflected? &nbsp;does it hit
<BR>the mirror, stop, and then return?</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Light has many componenents to it that can not be seen with the eye, that do not get reflected by standard mirrors, and I believe that the magnetic component or the spin to the photon may penetrate the mirror and not be reflected. &nbsp;Only another magnetic component or spinning particle may jam or reflect the mangetic components of light or the spin of the subatomic particles. 
<BR>
<BR>Respectfully,
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>Thomas Clark
<BR>tom rhfweb.com
<BR>www.rhfweb.com\personal
<BR></FONT></HTML>

--part1_73.216c52ff.2a446b95_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 21 10:25:37 2002
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From: "Ryan Hopkins" <thebishop usadatanet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Matters of chirality
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:21:37 -0400
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hi Nick,

I just read the site where you detail your observations of the Merchant
Ball.  Very interesting results, indeed.  Two things in particular here have
caught my attention: firstly, the estimated resonant frequency of the ball
and secondly, the acoustic effect which is greater on the lower half of the
ball.  The frequency range you suggested as the ball's resonant range is
right around the schumann resonance between the Earth and the Earth's
atmosphere.  There seems to be a pretty certain correlation there.  Also
keep in mind that one does not need much energy to build up a very high
amplitude vibration in a resonant device, especially one that is coupled to
the Schumann frequency!  Mabye the ball is acting like a giant capacitor,
loosely coupling to this frequency until a point where it is in-phase -
allowing a jump in the amplitude of vibrational energy it is conducting.
Once the ball reaches this state, it is essentially freely oscillating.
Could it be that the sphere is producing a specific range of harmonics which
allow for the proper 'dirty' signal needed for it to move?  The transfer of
vibration between the sphere and its base, and the odd phase differences and
things going on due to slight imperfections in the stone pieces themselves,
could also explain the effect.
This could explain the ball's persistance in movement and its apparent
erratic schedule.

There's one thing I'm thinking about that I would love to get your feedback
on.  Do you know if the ball has a particular direction of movement?  On the
webpage you mention a 'horizontal N-S axis of rotation.'  Could you clarify
this, please?  Have you been able to figure out whether the sphere generally
spins clockwise or counter-clockwise, or simply at random?

$0.02 :)

Ryan Hopkins


> I have tried using speakers and transducers to apply sound at various
> orientations.  So far, not much in the way of results.
>
> The effect, for whatever it may involve, seems to almost be more related
to
> amplitude, inertia, and I sometimes think direction of travel during
shaking
> or agitation.  If one uses manual shakes for example, I seem to get better
> results (generally) if I use jerky non-linear strokes.  Its almost as
though
> the mass being shaken or vibrated actually has to experience some serious
> accelerations and decelerations, even if only over a short span of travel.
>
> The Tibetan levitation reference fascinates me to no end.  We actually
> brought it up in another paper on our website:
> http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/merchantball.htm
>
> Best,
>
> NR
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
> To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 1:55 AM
> Subject: Re: Matters of chirality
>
>
> > Nick Reiter wrote:
> >
> > > Some of you might recall that back into the winter, we had continued
to
> see
> > > milligram level temporary weight losses in sealed ampoules containing
> > > nano-particle media, when said vessels were shaken and re-weighed.
> >
> > Welcome back!
> >
> > Shaking is somewhat equivalent to hitting the material with impulse
> > sound waves.  You impart a broad band mechanical energy to the
> > particles.
> >
> > There are numerous accounts of acoustic levitation of large objects:
> > Keeley, Leedskalin, even Tibetian Monks.
> >
> > Have you tried stimulating the samples with sound waves?  Ideally you
> > could sweep a broad range of frequencies while recording any weight
> > changes.
> >
> > Terry
> >
> >
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 21 11:08:04 2002
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Nick Reiter wrote:

>
>The Tibetan levitation reference fascinates me to no end.  We actually
>brought it up in another paper on our website:
>http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/merchantball.htm
>

Fascinating account!  Although, I did not see the Tibetan reference.

Are you familiar with the work of David Hamel, the subject of "The 
Granite Man and the Butterfly"?


Terry


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 21 13:35:58 2002
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Jun 21, 2002
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 16:25:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 21 Jun 02   Washington, DC

1. HYDRINO ROCKETS: PASCAL'S WAGER IS ALIVE AND WELL AT NASA. 
According to a story in Wired, NASA's Institute for Advanced
Concepts is funding a study to test the feasibility of powering a
rocket by the hydrino process.  A call to the Director of the IAC
in Atlanta confirmed that an engineering professor at Rowan
University will conduct the test.  According to Randell Mills of
BlackLight Power, if ordinary hydrogen atoms make a transition
into "a state below the ground state," they become teeny little
things called "hydrinos," liberating large amounts of energy. 
It's all in Mill's "Grand Unified Theory of Classical Quantum
Mechanics."  Is NASA taking this wacky notion seriously   again? 
Should we remind NASA that it tested the hydrino claim 10 years
ago when BlackLight Power was still called HydroCatalysis?  NASA
was looking for a way to power a mission to Pluto.  Results were
"inconclusive."  That's NASA talk for "it didn't work."

2. HOMELAND SECURITY: LIVERMORE LABS IS JUST A SIDEKICK.  Mass
confusion was generated last Thursday by release of the White
House policy book for Homeland Security, which seemed to say that
the entire Lawrence Livermore National laboratory would be moved
over to the new Department of Homeland Security (DHS).  But the
numbers just didn't add up, and reporters were scurrying around
trying to find out what it meant.  The language of the actual
legislation, The Homeland Security Act of 2002, seemed to clear
things up.  Section 803 "authorizes the head of any executive
agency, upon the request of the Secretary of DHS, to provide
services."  These services include research support in the areas
of chemical, biological, or radiological weapons.  So LLNL isn't
going anywhere, but DHS will locate an office at LLNL and the lab
will be a "center of excellence" for Homeland Security research. 

3. MISSILE DEFENSE: DEATH OF THE ABM TREATY ACCELERATES SCHEDULE. 
The ABM Treaty, which prohibited sea-based defenses, died last
week (WN 14 Jun 02).  So the Missile Defense Agency proposed to
move deployment up to 2004, since sea-launched missile defenses,
such as the Aegis system, are already available.  All that's
needed is an upgrade to cope with the much faster ICBMs.  Missile
experts scoff.  If you calculate the thrust needed, there's not a
ship in the fleet that could survive launch.  That's even better,
exclaims the Navy, we'll have to build new ships.  

4. YUCCA MOUNTAIN: SO WHAT ODDS DOES LAS VEGAS GIVE?  The House
already voted 306-117 to override Nevada's veto of the waste site
(WN 7 Jun 02).  In Utah, opponents argue it will seriously hurt
the Las Vegas casino business, 600 miles away.  The Mdewakanton 
Indians, far from Utah, are unimpressed.  They have a casino 600
yards from the waste stored by a nuclear power plant. 

(Christy Fernandez assisted with this week's What's New.)
THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 21 14:37:23 2002
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Message-ID: <000d01c2196b$7b0f71c0$8c3dee3f zanzibar>
From: "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Matters of chirality
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Hi, Ryan,

Thanks for the observations.

What I was told was this...

The "bald spot" on the stone ball rotates or moves in such a way as to
suggest that there would be an imaginary horizontal (parallel to the earth's
surface) axis of rotation to the ball.  This axis would be (again per
claims) generally North - south.  So the "bald spot" describes something
like a zenith to nadir movement, or rising to setting.  However it is not
clear if it always turns or moves in the same direction - or if it moves
back on itself.  Equating to CW or CCW turns on the imaginary axis.

Thanks,

NR

----- Original Message -----
From: Ryan Hopkins <thebishop usadatanet.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: Matters of chirality


> hi Nick,
>
> I just read the site where you detail your observations of the Merchant
> Ball.  Very interesting results, indeed.  Two things in particular here
have
> caught my attention: firstly, the estimated resonant frequency of the ball
> and secondly, the acoustic effect which is greater on the lower half of
the
> ball.  The frequency range you suggested as the ball's resonant range is
> right around the schumann resonance between the Earth and the Earth's
> atmosphere.  There seems to be a pretty certain correlation there.  Also
> keep in mind that one does not need much energy to build up a very high
> amplitude vibration in a resonant device, especially one that is coupled
to
> the Schumann frequency!  Mabye the ball is acting like a giant capacitor,
> loosely coupling to this frequency until a point where it is in-phase -
> allowing a jump in the amplitude of vibrational energy it is conducting.
> Once the ball reaches this state, it is essentially freely oscillating.
> Could it be that the sphere is producing a specific range of harmonics
which
> allow for the proper 'dirty' signal needed for it to move?  The transfer
of
> vibration between the sphere and its base, and the odd phase differences
and
> things going on due to slight imperfections in the stone pieces
themselves,
> could also explain the effect.
> This could explain the ball's persistance in movement and its apparent
> erratic schedule.
>
> There's one thing I'm thinking about that I would love to get your
feedback
> on.  Do you know if the ball has a particular direction of movement?  On
the
> webpage you mention a 'horizontal N-S axis of rotation.'  Could you
clarify
> this, please?  Have you been able to figure out whether the sphere
generally
> spins clockwise or counter-clockwise, or simply at random?
>
> $0.02 :)
>
> Ryan Hopkins
>
>
> > I have tried using speakers and transducers to apply sound at various
> > orientations.  So far, not much in the way of results.
> >
> > The effect, for whatever it may involve, seems to almost be more related
> to
> > amplitude, inertia, and I sometimes think direction of travel during
> shaking
> > or agitation.  If one uses manual shakes for example, I seem to get
better
> > results (generally) if I use jerky non-linear strokes.  Its almost as
> though
> > the mass being shaken or vibrated actually has to experience some
serious
> > accelerations and decelerations, even if only over a short span of
travel.
> >
> > The Tibetan levitation reference fascinates me to no end.  We actually
> > brought it up in another paper on our website:
> > http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/merchantball.htm
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > NR
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
> > To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
> > Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 1:55 AM
> > Subject: Re: Matters of chirality
> >
> >
> > > Nick Reiter wrote:
> > >
> > > > Some of you might recall that back into the winter, we had continued
> to
> > see
> > > > milligram level temporary weight losses in sealed ampoules
containing
> > > > nano-particle media, when said vessels were shaken and re-weighed.
> > >
> > > Welcome back!
> > >
> > > Shaking is somewhat equivalent to hitting the material with impulse
> > > sound waves.  You impart a broad band mechanical energy to the
> > > particles.
> > >
> > > There are numerous accounts of acoustic levitation of large objects:
> > > Keeley, Leedskalin, even Tibetian Monks.
> > >
> > > Have you tried stimulating the samples with sound waves?  Ideally you
> > > could sweep a broad range of frequencies while recording any weight
> > > changes.
> > >
> > > Terry
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 21 14:38:39 2002
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From: "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Matters of chirality
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Hi Terry -

My mistake.  I thought I had mentioned the Tibetan levitation in the Ball
paper.  Sorry - I mentioned Coral Castle instead.  I think I had originally
put something in about the Tibetan effect, but had to edit it back out.  The
paper that we wrote on the Merchant Ball had to be a little shy on the
technical end, as it was actually written for a local alternative newspaper.

I am a little familiar with Hamel's work, but not specifically with the work
you mention.  Sounds interesting, tho.

NR

----- Original Message -----
From: Terry Blanton <blantont pbtta.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: Matters of chirality


> Nick Reiter wrote:
>
> >
> >The Tibetan levitation reference fascinates me to no end.  We actually
> >brought it up in another paper on our website:
> >http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/merchantball.htm
> >
>
> Fascinating account!  Although, I did not see the Tibetan reference.
>
> Are you familiar with the work of David Hamel, the subject of "The
> Granite Man and the Butterfly"?
>
>
> Terry
>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 21 14:51:27 2002
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From: "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
To: "vortex-L" <vortex-L eskimo.com>
References: <NDBBLHBMKKFMAIAFAAKMMEDJDEAA.knagel gis.net>
Subject: Chirality and Kozyrev
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:51:11 -0400
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WHOA!  Hey, I just re-read this post from Keith.  You mention something very
pertinent...the directionality of agitation!!!

This is one of the devilish factors that has dogged me on this whole
project.  Early on, it did seem like shaking the nano-particle filled
ampoules in some directions gave better effects than others.  However, it
was very rarely consistent from day to day - sort of a supreme
"randomfactor".  And in truth, the effect itself does vary in magnitude from
day to day, though is generally always there to at least a slight degree.
Some days are better than others.

This is starting to gel.  I wonder if it relates to the paper going around
recently describing how the universe seems to have an axis of optical
rotation.  But maybe the direction Kozyrev found was actually the summed
vector of all net motion through the universe, for a given point on the
Earth's surface.  The one true summed vector describing our direction
through "physical time" or space-time.  Now it doesn't take any thought at
all to see that this absolute direction would CONSTANTLY CHANGE with
location on the earth, time of day, season, and year.  All the factors that
seem to dog so many experimenters in subtle energy and gravity effects!!!

Somewhere I was reading that the summed vector generally points in the
direction of the constellation Leo.  Maybe someone could come up with a
computer program to perpetually calculate your immediate "time arrow" at any
moment!

And maybe, when you vibrate or shake in that direction, you are truly
pushing forward and backward in time!

OWW  Brainhurt.

NR


----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:06 AM
Subject: RE: Matters of chirality


> Hi Nick.
>
> Welcome back.
>
> I have a paper of Kozyrev that was translated by the late Chris Bird,
> in which he describes experiments where inelastic collisions occured,
> causing a weight variation. If I remember correctly, the
> experiments involved boxes loaded with lead shot that were shaken
> mechanically. Perhaps you can try this along with your chiral
> materials.
>
> Kozyrev also claimed that there was a directional component to
> this process, that is to say that one needed to align the shaking
> to some fixed point in space. I think his paper on Time goes into
> this is some detail, Russians have kindly posted some of Kozyrevs
> papers on the net so hit google if you are thirsting...
>
> Kozyrev claimed some pretty big changes, if I remember correctly.
> If you find yourself "in the tall grass" perhaps something additional
> is missing from the replications? Or Kozyrev was fudging (grin).
> I found his papers very thought provoking, but thin on experimental
> details. If you know of any technical russian translators contact
> me offlist...
>
> K.
>



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 21 18:09:49 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Chirality and Kozyrev
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 21:19:31 -0400
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Hi Nick.

Yes, that's Kozyrev's idea, it's similar
in form to the claims of Silvertooth and
to a lesser degree Sagnac + Michaelson & Gale.

With a shaking time of perhaps a minute you could
use your current setup and reorient the crystal
between shakes, measuring as you go. Just remember
that Kozyrev also claims that the effect is
cumulative, and decays with a time constant
quite long. Wait another few minutes for the
system to "thermalize" before reorientation.

I'll look for the paper, it's a rough translation
of a chapter from a book of his.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Reiter [mailto:reit ezworks.net]
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 5:51 PM
To: vortex-L
Subject: Chirality and Kozyrev


WHOA!  Hey, I just re-read this post from Keith.  You mention something very
pertinent...the directionality of agitation!!!

This is one of the devilish factors that has dogged me on this whole
project.  Early on, it did seem like shaking the nano-particle filled
ampoules in some directions gave better effects than others.  However, it
was very rarely consistent from day to day - sort of a supreme
"randomfactor".  And in truth, the effect itself does vary in magnitude from
day to day, though is generally always there to at least a slight degree.
Some days are better than others.

This is starting to gel.  I wonder if it relates to the paper going around
recently describing how the universe seems to have an axis of optical
rotation.  But maybe the direction Kozyrev found was actually the summed
vector of all net motion through the universe, for a given point on the
Earth's surface.  The one true summed vector describing our direction
through "physical time" or space-time.  Now it doesn't take any thought at
all to see that this absolute direction would CONSTANTLY CHANGE with
location on the earth, time of day, season, and year.  All the factors that
seem to dog so many experimenters in subtle energy and gravity effects!!!

Somewhere I was reading that the summed vector generally points in the
direction of the constellation Leo.  Maybe someone could come up with a
computer program to perpetually calculate your immediate "time arrow" at any
moment!

And maybe, when you vibrate or shake in that direction, you are truly
pushing forward and backward in time!

OWW  Brainhurt.

NR


----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 12:06 AM
Subject: RE: Matters of chirality


> Hi Nick.
>
> Welcome back.
>
> I have a paper of Kozyrev that was translated by the late Chris Bird,
> in which he describes experiments where inelastic collisions occured,
> causing a weight variation. If I remember correctly, the
> experiments involved boxes loaded with lead shot that were shaken
> mechanically. Perhaps you can try this along with your chiral
> materials.
>
> Kozyrev also claimed that there was a directional component to
> this process, that is to say that one needed to align the shaking
> to some fixed point in space. I think his paper on Time goes into
> this is some detail, Russians have kindly posted some of Kozyrevs
> papers on the net so hit google if you are thirsting...
>
> Kozyrev claimed some pretty big changes, if I remember correctly.
> If you find yourself "in the tall grass" perhaps something additional
> is missing from the replications? Or Kozyrev was fudging (grin).
> I found his papers very thought provoking, but thin on experimental
> details. If you know of any technical russian translators contact
> me offlist...
>
> K.
>




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 21 19:07:38 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Matters of chirality
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 12:04:34 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Nick Reiter's message of Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:34:51 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>The "bald spot" on the stone ball rotates or moves in such a way as to
>suggest that there would be an imaginary horizontal (parallel to the earth's
>surface) axis of rotation to the ball.  This axis would be (again per
>claims) generally North - south.  So the "bald spot" describes something
>like a zenith to nadir movement, or rising to setting.  However it is not
>clear if it always turns or moves in the same direction - or if it moves
>back on itself.  Equating to CW or CCW turns on the imaginary axis.
[snip]
Given that there is some "levitation" mechanism at work, then you need
to consider that while the ball is levitated, the Earth will turn
slightly underneath it, so that when it settles again, it will be
slightly off centre on the pedestal. It will then role back to the
centre position. Successive iterations of this process will cause the
ball to rotate around a north-south axis. This also implies that it
always turns in the same direction, i.e. opposite to that of the Earth
itself.
This also implies the the levitation mechanism is anti-gravity, not loss
of inertia (i.e. the ball doesn't lose all mass and disappear into the
universe at the speed of light ;). 

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 21 19:16:06 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Matters of chirality
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 12:14:59 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Nick Reiter's message of Fri, 21 Jun 2002 06:49:36 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]

>The Tibetan levitation reference fascinates me to no end.  We actually
>brought it up in another paper on our website:
>http://www.alliancelink.com/users/avalon/merchantball.htm
[snip]
Actually the method of levitation could be something as simple as
vibration on the pedestal caused by passing trains, trucks, Earth
tremors etc. 


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

Given that there is some "levitation" mechanism at
work, then you need to consider that while the ball is
levitated, the Earth will turn slightly underneath it,
so that when it settles again, it will be slightly off
centre on the pedestal ...

Hi All,

I have long been fascinated by Kozyrev's experiments,
especialy as they relate to things which affect the value
of big G.

Recently, I have read an excellent book, reference follows,
which I highly recommend to you.  I think Assis' physics
has a bearing on this discussion.

Jack Smith

Quoting from "Relational Mechanics" by Andre K. T. Assis, 1999
(This book can be purchased at Amazon.com.)

p.59

"As we have seen, Newton's second law of motion is valid
only in absolute space or in frames of reference which move 
with a constant translational velocity relative to it ...
These are called inertial frames of reference ..."

p. 66

"Newton's Bucket Experiment

... What is important to stress here and in 
the previous examples of the circular orbit of the planets
and of the two globes, is that this centrifugal force
has no physical origin in Newtonian mechanics ...

p. 217

"...We can then say that this centrifugal force presses
the water against the wall of the bucket making the 
water rise on this wall until the centrifugal force
is balanced by the gradient of pressure."

p. 219

"Foucault's Pendulum

... What should be emphasized again is that relational
mechanics offers a physical explanation of the Coriolis 
force.  It is now seen as a real gravitational force due
to a relative rotation between the earth and the frame
of distant galaxies,"

p. 261

"... We have been able to eplain the coincidence of
Newtonian mechanics that the universe as a whole does
not rotate relative to absolute space or to any inertial
frame of reference.  In other words, we have explained
why the kinematical rotation of the earth is identical
to its dynamical rotation ...

We have derived the fact that all inertial forces of
Newtonian mechanics, like the centrifugal force or
Coriolis forces, are real forces ...  This also explains
the concavity in Newton's bucket as due to a relative
rotation between the water and the distant universe ..."


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 22 11:53:15 2002
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From: "Nick Reiter" <reit ezworks.net>
To: "vortex-L" <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Subject: Kozyrev and Time links- Pay Dirt!
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 14:50:34 -0400
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Gentlemen,

This morning, I did a Google run for Kozyrev...something I have done
periodically since early in the year.  Lo and behold, I found a hit for what
apparently is a fairly new Russian consortium, with a website chock full of
papers on and by Kozyrev and other proponents of physical time theory.  Oh!
This will take a while to absorb, but already I found a document describing
the observations made by Kozyrev in the paper Keith was telling of.  Here is
the URL of  that particular paper:

http://www.chronos.msu.ru/EREPORTS/levich_substan_inter/levich_substan_inter
.htm

See especially sections 2.10 and 3.4!  This is exactly what I have been
chasing!  Transient weight changes in oscillated masses.  Even the time of
decay for the effect is the same.  Kozyrev was seeing what I am seeing, this
I am now sure of.  Wonder how this might connect to the Woodward Drive?

The listing of all their e-documents is here:
http://www.chronos.msu.ru/eproceedings_of_institute.html

And this URL is for the page descibing their organization:
http://www.chronos.msu.ru/eoinstitute.html

This gives me all the more excuse to stay indoors and drive brainhurt to
surreal levels this weekend.

NR


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 22 13:04:32 2002
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Subject: Re: Matters of chirality
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
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Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 00:02:03 +0400
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(repost)
Hi Nick,

This a great and painful research indeed. I wonder inertia/weight equality are changed by the phenomenon.

Measuring inertia of samples displaying weight changes. May an pendulum experiment could be enough to detect minute changes. (may require vacuum) Moon disturbance on g should be taken account.  

It would be also worth to analyze previous results for correlation with moon.

Of couse best is carry sample into ISS and see if it accelerate by a force about the weight change.


 
Nick Reiter wrote:
> 
> Gentlemen,
> 
> Over the past few months, I have come to owe many a tip of the hat to Colin
> Quinney, who bravely forwarded my experiment missives into the clutches of a
> number of discussion groups, including this one.  Since I am back on Vort
> for now, I'll give Colin a break, and post some thoughts here and now!
> 
[snip]

Regards,

hamdi ucar


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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Kozyrev and Time links- Pay Dirt!
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 22:23:55 -0400
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Hi Nick.

So you got thirsty enough, huh? Well, thought you might like
what you'd find... (grin).

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Reiter [mailto:reit ezworks.net]
Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 2:51 PM
To: vortex-L
Subject: Kozyrev and Time links- Pay Dirt!


Gentlemen,

This morning, I did a Google run for Kozyrev...something I have done
periodically since early in the year.  Lo and behold, I found a hit for what
apparently is a fairly new Russian consortium, with a website chock full of
papers on and by Kozyrev and other proponents of physical time theory.  Oh!
This will take a while to absorb, but already I found a document describing
the observations made by Kozyrev in the paper Keith was telling of.  Here is
the URL of  that particular paper:

http://www.chronos.msu.ru/EREPORTS/levich_substan_inter/levich_substan_inter
.htm

See especially sections 2.10 and 3.4!  This is exactly what I have been
chasing!  Transient weight changes in oscillated masses.  Even the time of
decay for the effect is the same.  Kozyrev was seeing what I am seeing, this
I am now sure of.  Wonder how this might connect to the Woodward Drive?

The listing of all their e-documents is here:
http://www.chronos.msu.ru/eproceedings_of_institute.html

And this URL is for the page descibing their organization:
http://www.chronos.msu.ru/eoinstitute.html

This gives me all the more excuse to stay indoors and drive brainhurt to
surreal levels this weekend.

NR


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 22 21:05:39 2002
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From: "Chris B." <chris.b interia.pl>
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Subject: Another interesting work of dr. Pajak.
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Hello!
I've foun interesting work of dr. Pajak entitled "DEVICES FOR THE
TELEKINETIC EXTRACTION OF ENERGY FROM THE
ENVIRONMENT" (1993). It describes few free energy devices and dr. Pajaks
theory about them. I have it on my computer in RTF ZIPed in abot 150kB
file (no illustrations). Are you interested?
Regards,
Chris B.
e-mail: <chris.b interia.pl>


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Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 18:21:56 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Electric phenomena mystery on Honolulu docks
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Our local paper reported today that new floating docks installed in the Ala Wai harbor near Waikiki won't be open for a while yet - static discharges pose a safety risk, they say. The new docks have some sort of plastic surface, but the report didn't specify the material. Charge is said to accumulate on it during the day, and the plan is to install metal discharge conduits every few feet. "The funny thing is that not everybody gets shocked. And it's happening only during the time between 12 and two or three in the afternoon." - Andrew Monden, chief engineer for the Department of Land and Natural Resources.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 23 06:09:59 2002
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In a message dated 6/23/2002 12:05:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
FZNIDARSIC aol.com writes:


> 
> Hello!
> I've found interesting work of dr. Pajak entitled "DEVICES FOR THE
> TELEKINETIC EXTRACTION OF ENERGY FROM THE
> ENVIRONMENT" (1993). It describes few free energy devices and dr. Pajaks
> theory about them. I have it on my computer in RTF ZIPed in about 150kB
> file (no illustrations). Are you interested?
> Regards,
> Chris B.
> e-mail: <chris.b interia.pl>

Yes, please send me  a copy of your zip file for DEVICES FOR THE
TELEKINETIC EXTRACTION OF ENERGY FROM THE
ENVIRONMENT" by an attached email to conextom aol.com, if possible. 
Thank you.

Respectfully,

Thomas Clark
tom rhfweb.com
www.rhfweb.com\personal


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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 6/23/2002 12:05:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, FZNIDARSIC aol.com writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<BR>Hello!
<BR>I've found interesting work of dr. Pajak entitled "DEVICES FOR THE
<BR>TELEKINETIC EXTRACTION OF ENERGY FROM THE
<BR>ENVIRONMENT" (1993). It describes few free energy devices and dr. Pajaks
<BR>theory about them. I have it on my computer in RTF ZIPed in about 150kB
<BR>file (no illustrations). Are you interested?
<BR>Regards,
<BR>Chris B.
<BR>e-mail: &lt;chris.b interia.pl&gt;</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR>Yes, please send me &nbsp;a copy of your zip file for DEVICES FOR THE
<BR>TELEKINETIC EXTRACTION OF ENERGY FROM THE
<BR>ENVIRONMENT" by an attached email to conextom aol.com, if possible. 
<BR>Thank you.
<BR>
<BR>Respectfully,
<BR>
<BR>Thomas Clark
<BR>tom rhfweb.com
<BR>www.rhfweb.com\personal
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 23 06:33:46 2002
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References: <5b.29b6b476.2a4721db aol.com>
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Me too

ConexTom aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 6/23/2002 12:05:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> FZNIDARSIC aol.com writes:
>
>
>
>>
>> Hello!
>> I've found interesting work of dr. Pajak entitled "DEVICES FOR THE
>> TELEKINETIC EXTRACTION OF ENERGY FROM THE
>> ENVIRONMENT" (1993). It describes few free energy devices and dr.
>> Pajaks
>> theory about them. I have it on my computer in RTF ZIPed in about
>> 150kB
>> file (no illustrations). Are you interested?
>> Regards,
>> Chris B.
>> e-mail: <chris.b interia.pl>
>
> Yes, please send me  a copy of your zip file for DEVICES FOR THE
> TELEKINETIC EXTRACTION OF ENERGY FROM THE
> ENVIRONMENT" by an attached email to conextom aol.com, if possible.
> Thank you.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Thomas Clark
> tom rhfweb.com
> www.rhfweb.com\personal

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 23 19:44:46 2002
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The "ZERO BLASTER" smoke-ring gun, from two guys in Massachusetts, $20:

  http://www.zerotoys.com

I wannit!

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William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 24 05:06:27 2002
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From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Electric phenomena mystery on Honolulu docks
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On Sat, 22 Jun 2002, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Our local paper reported today that new floating docks installed in the
> Ala Wai harbor near Waikiki won't be open for a while yet - static
> discharges pose a safety risk, they say. The new docks have some sort of
> plastic surface, but the report didn't specify the material. Charge is
> said to accumulate on it during the day, and the plan is to install
> metal discharge conduits every few feet.

I've heard of this exact situation before.  Some docks are made of
recycled plastic instead of wood.  When the sun bakes the surface dry,
then it's just like scuffing across a carpet.

If you walk across a carpet and then touch a doorknob, would you conclude
that charge slowly accumulates on carpets?  Of course not.  It's the
contact between shoes and carpet which does it.   Use wet shoes or bare
feet and you'll get no shocks.  (But perhaps the population of a
high-humidity environment such as Hawaii can be forgiven for being
confused about rug-scuffing electrification.)

Solution?  I don't know.  Will anything stick to that kind of plastic?
Anti-static (conductive) paint is used on concrete floors in electronics
assembly plants.  But if the dock is made of recycled polyethelene, you're
in trouble, since most paints will peel right off, especially if people
are walking on it.

I suspect that the dock manufacturers know this problem well, and they
solve it in the same way that auto tire manufacturers do: adding
carbon-black to the mix to make it slightly conductive.  It doesn't take
much conductivity to eliminate the effect.  (That's why you won't
encounter it in Hawaii except in heavily air-conditioned office
buildings.)

Since ESD in gasoline refueling locations can cause explosions, the
manufacturer of the plastic dock had better supply a conductive black
plastic replacement for the walkway.  Just wait for someone to get killed,
and very quickly you'll find out that it has happened before, and the
ESD-generating floor material is to blame.  It's a lawsuit waiting to
happen.



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William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 24 05:51:39 2002
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From: BVicknair bjservices.com
Subject: RE:Honolulu docks
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While in high school I had a summer job working at Southern Scrap Materials
in New Orleans. My job was to go into US destroyers and
salvage electronic equipment, then still used by the maritime fleet. A Navy
officer would break the ship's hermetic seal have the 5" gun barrels cut,
then hammer the main combat radar screen. We could then cut the ship up
into pieces. I was in the forward radio room and received a stunning shock
disconnecting a transmitter. The ship had been delivered without antennas
and had been unpowered since the 1950s.
(I do not believe a capacitor could maintain for so many years.)
This is the experience that started my lifelong drive into non-conventional
physics.  bv

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 24 06:29:01 2002
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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 06:24:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Electric phenomena mystery on Honolulu docks
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Rick:

I knopw the weather is prety 'regular' there.  The wind speed and
direction reltiavly constant and RH changes per time of day...

This may be a clue...

--- Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com> wrote:
> Our local paper reported today that new floating docks installed in the
> Ala Wai harbor near Waikiki won't be open for a while yet - static
> discharges pose a safety risk, they say. The new docks have some sort
> of plastic surface, but the report didn't specify the material. Charge
> is said to accumulate on it during the day, and the plan is to install
> metal discharge conduits every few feet. "The funny thing is that not
> everybody gets shocked. And it's happening only during the time between
> 12 and two or three in the afternoon." - Andrew Monden, chief engineer
> for the Department of Land and Natural Resources.
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 24 10:42:44 2002
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Subject: Re: Electric phenomena mystery on Honolulu docks
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On Mon, 24 Jun 2002, Charles Ford wrote:

> I knopw the weather is prety 'regular' there.  The wind speed and
> direction reltiavly constant and RH changes per time of day...

If you bake the water out of a plastic surface, it becomes a better
insulator.   My guess is that the mysterious problem only occurs after
several hours of vertical sunshine...  and will vanish on cloudy days.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 24 10:57:35 2002
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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:56:18 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell<JedRothwell mindspring.com>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Reply-To: JedRothwell infinite-energy.com
Subject: Iwamura ICCF-9 paper
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Yasuhiro Iwamura e-mailed copies of his ICCF-9 paper to people who requested
it at the conference. Since he sent it to anyone who requested, I suppose I
can offer copies to anyone else who would like to see it. This is similar to
the paper that will be published in the Japanese Journal of Applied Physics
soon. It may have newer information, since the JJAP paper was submitted some
time ago. It is a marvelous paper that overturns many core assumptions in cold
fusion, such as the idea that high loading of palladium is always necessary.


Incidentally, I am unable to communicate with Vortex or any Eskimo.com account
for some reason via my ADSL line. I have complained to the Eskimo support
people but they have not responded. This is sent via the Earthlink Web Mail
program, which is inconvenient.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 24 11:15:43 2002
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Subject: Re: Another interesting work of dr. Pajak.
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 20:24:43 +0200
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Yes , send me a copy please.

Tks

Robert Hoffmann
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: ConexTom aol.com=20
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com ; chris.b@interia.pl=20
  Cc: ConexTom aol.com=20
  Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 3:06 PM
  Subject: Re: Another interesting work of dr. Pajak.


  In a message dated 6/23/2002 12:05:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, =
FZNIDARSIC aol.com writes:=20




    Hello!=20
    I've found interesting work of dr. Pajak entitled "DEVICES FOR THE=20
    TELEKINETIC EXTRACTION OF ENERGY FROM THE=20
    ENVIRONMENT" (1993). It describes few free energy devices and dr. =
Pajaks=20
    theory about them. I have it on my computer in RTF ZIPed in about =
150kB=20
    file (no illustrations). Are you interested?=20
    Regards,=20
    Chris B.=20
    e-mail: <chris.b interia.pl>


  Yes, please send me  a copy of your zip file for DEVICES FOR THE=20
  TELEKINETIC EXTRACTION OF ENERGY FROM THE=20
  ENVIRONMENT" by an attached email to conextom aol.com, if possible.=20
  Thank you.=20

  Respectfully,=20

  Thomas Clark=20
  tom rhfweb.com=20
  www.rhfweb.com\personal=20

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<STYLE></STYLE>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Yes , send me a copy =
please.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tks</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Robert Hoffmann</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3DConexTom aol.com =
href=3D"mailto:ConexTom aol.com">ConexTom@aol.com</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvortex-l eskimo.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vortex-l eskimo.com">vortex-l@eskimo.com</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Dchris.b interia.pl=20
  href=3D"mailto:chris.b interia.pl">chris.b@interia.pl</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3DConexTom aol.com =

  href=3D"mailto:ConexTom aol.com">ConexTom@aol.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, June 23, 2002 =
3:06 PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Another =
interesting work of=20
  dr. Pajak.</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D2>In a =
message dated=20
  6/23/2002 12:05:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:FZNIDARSIC aol.com">FZNIDARSIC@aol.com</A> writes: =
<BR><BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
  TYPE=3D"CITE"><BR>Hello! <BR>I've found interesting work of dr. Pajak =
entitled=20
    "DEVICES FOR THE <BR>TELEKINETIC EXTRACTION OF ENERGY FROM THE=20
    <BR>ENVIRONMENT" (1993). It describes few free energy devices and =
dr. Pajaks=20
    <BR>theory about them. I have it on my computer in RTF ZIPed in =
about 150kB=20
    <BR>file (no illustrations). Are you interested? <BR>Regards, =
<BR>Chris B.=20
    <BR>e-mail: &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:chris.b interia.pl">chris.b@interia.pl</A>&gt;</FONT><FONT=
=20
    lang=3D0 face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D3=20
  FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#000000 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR>Yes, please send me =
&nbsp;a copy=20
  of your zip file for DEVICES FOR THE <BR>TELEKINETIC EXTRACTION OF =
ENERGY FROM=20
  THE <BR>ENVIRONMENT" by an attached email to conextom aol.com, if =
possible.=20
  <BR>Thank you. <BR><BR>Respectfully, <BR><BR>Thomas Clark =
<BR>tom rhfweb.com=20
  <BR>www.rhfweb.com\personal =
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 24 11:17:49 2002
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Test

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 24 12:02:55 2002
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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:54:19 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Francis Bacon describes perceptual errors
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William Beaty wrote:

> > Francis Bacon was the first to deal with this paradox extensively [self 
> deception problem] , and
> > effectively in my opinion.
>
>Doesn't sound familiar.  Was this in a particular article, or scattered
>about?

Mainly in the book "Novum Organum," written in 1620 when he was 69 years 
old. It was his last major work, I think. I have a public domain English 
translation on disk, if anyone would like to see it. (He wrote in Latin.)


>I hope he put "consciously halting all the lies you tell yourself"
>right at the top.

He assumes the reader is honest. He covers more basic issues. This was at 
the dawn of modern science. William Harvey and a few other experimentalists 
were working when Bacon wrote, but they did not understand their own 
methods in as much depth as he did. (Harvey made fun of Bacon.) He was far 
ahead of his time. Here are some of the perceptual problems he wrote about.

He begins with some very basic ideas, such as using instruments instead of 
the senses. The advantages of instruments are so clear to us we forget 
someone had to explain them the first time:

"There are two faults of the senses: they either desert or deceive us. For 
in the first place there are many things which escape the senses, however 
well directed and unimpeded, owing either to the subtilty of the whole 
body, or the minuteness of its parts, or the distance of place, or the 
slowness or velocity of motion, or the familiarity of the object, or to 
other causes. Nor are the apprehensions of the senses very firm, when they 
grasp the subject; for the testimony and information of the senses bears 
always a relation to man and not to the universe, and it is altogether a 
great mistake to assert that our senses are the measure of things."

That's the easy part. He goes on to describe a host of perceptual errors, 
which he calls "idols," such as interference from cultural assumptions, 
mistakes in the literature, the urge to categorize and pigeon-hole 
experiences, and seeing patterns where none exist: "The human 
understanding, from its peculiar nature, easily supposes a greater degree 
of order and equality in things than it really finds; and although many 
things in nature be sui generis, and most irregular, will yet invent 
parallels and conjugates, and relatives where no such thing is."

He describes the need for quantitative data and mathematical analysis (67 
years before Newton), and control experiments. He warns against 
generalizing from an insufficient data set, sampling bias, and ignoring 
counterexamples. Also, jumping to conclusions before you have enough data, 
sloppy observations, and the tendency to debate things to death instead of 
doing hands-on work:

"For in the first place the defective and fallacious evidence of our 
senses, a system of observation slothful and unsteady, as though acting 
from chance, a tradition vain and depending on common report, a course of 
practice intent upon effects, and servile, blind, dull, vague, and abrupt 
experiments, and lastly our careless and meagre natural history, have 
collected together, for the use of the understanding, the most defective 
materials as regards philosophy and the sciences.

In the next place, a preposterous refinement, and, as it were, ventilation 
of argument, is attempted as a late remedy for a matter become clearly 
desperate, and neither makes any improvement, nor removes errors. There 
remains no hope therefore of greater advancement and progress, unless by 
some restoration of the sciences. . . ."

He describes how established theories and widely believed notions often 
distort or prevent the consideration of new data:

"The human understanding, when any preposition has been once laid down, 
(either from general admission and belief, or from the pleasure it 
affords,) forces every thing else to add fresh support and confirmation; 
and although more cogent and abundant instances may exist to the contrary, 
yet either does not observe or despises them, or gets rid of and rejects 
them by some distinction, with violent and injurious prejudice, rather than 
sacrifice the authority of its first conclusions. . . ."

The detailed sections illustrate these concepts with many concrete examples 
from nascent natural science and inventions such as gunpowder & cannons, 
and printing.

I think that many PhD scientists and engineers never study the subjects 
Bacon covers. We assume people know these things by the time they enter 
college. We may assume people know them by instinct, but that is not so. 
Induction is an invention like the fugue, trigonometry or statistics, and 
it must be taught. When students are left to pick it up on their own, by 
example & happenstance, they may try to reinvent the ideas from scratch. 
Many spend a lifetime making blunders that Bacon warned against in 1620.

Come to think of it, I have many basic reference books such as "Chemistry 
Made Simple" and "A Reference Grammar of Japanese" but I have not seen "An 
Idiot's Guide to Inductive Reasoning." Here is something along those lines:

http://trochim.human.cornell.edu/kb/

This explains some things which may be left out of textbooks in other 
branches of science. The generalization problem is here:

http://trochim.human.cornell.edu/kb/external.htm

Inductive versus deductive research:

http://trochim.omni.cornell.edu/kb/dedind.htm

There is nothing wrong with deduction by the way. Bacon concentrates on 
induction and the difficulties people have doing it because it was new. He 
more or less invented it. He does criticize people who use deduction when 
induction is more appropriate.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 24 12:16:36 2002
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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:14:57 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Previous NASA test of BlackLight Power claims
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Robert Park wrote:

>Should we remind NASA that it tested the hydrino claim 10 years
>ago when BlackLight Power was still called HydroCatalysis?  NASA
>was looking for a way to power a mission to Pluto.  Results were
>"inconclusive."  That's NASA talk for "it didn't work."

I believe that was a test of the Ni-H2O CF, which Mills claimed was 
actually caused by hydrinos. This latest test is quite different, if I 
understand correctly. It is not clear to me what Mills or Marchese (who has 
the NASA contract) are up to.

As far as I know, NASA talks the same way as other scientists & engineers, 
so "inconclusive" means "inconclusive." Park should not mention this. When 
an important claim is tested and the result is inconclusive, that means you 
should try again. If it had been decisively negative, that might argue 
against trying it again. This is not a second attempt at Ni-CF, but it 
should be -- as Park says.

More recent Mills claims should also be tested, if Mills cooperates fully. 
If I were NASA, I would test Ni-CF in cooperation with Ota and Fujii, who 
are doing a better job than Mills, Thermacore or Patterson did.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 24 12:46:38 2002
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This phenomenon may be caused by evaporation of water alone, not requiring any friction or "carpet scuffing" to cause charge separation.  Creation of electrostatic charges by evaporation of water has a long history.  In 1840 Lord William G. Armstrong demonstrated a device that produced high voltage charges with high pressure steam jets.  This gadget was basically a miniature steam locomotive boiler on glass insulating legs.  Others had noticed this phenomenon long before Armstrong.

Michael Faraday repeated this experiment and erroneously, in my opinion, concluded that it wasn't the evaporation of water that caused the creation of the charges, but the "friction" of condensed water droplets against the nearby conductor.  He and others came to this conclusion because they could create no charge with a non-boiling slower evaporation.

I have discovered through a simple experiment that anyone can repeat, that it is not necessary to boil the water to create a high voltage charge.  This experiment more or less duplicates the conditions found on the docks in Honolulu.  

You take a length of PVC pipe and run a moist cloth or paper towel through it with a rod longer than the pipe, similar to cleaning a gun barrel.   There should be just enough water deposited on the inner wall of the PVC pipe to render it damp but not dripping.  You then take a hair dryer and attach it to to the pipe in order to blow warm air though it.  It isn't necessary for the air to be very hot to make this work.  As the water evaporates from the interior of the PVC pipe it aquires a very definite high voltage charge and if you have attached strips of paper to the outside of the pipe, they will stand straight out.  It's been quite a while since I did this, but as I recall the pipe was charged negatively.

The first time I tried this, I had a 1 1/2 inch I.D. pipe flared on one end that made a perfect press fit onto the nozzle of the hair dryer I was using.  You are unlikely to be this lucky, so I suggest just wrapping a piece of cloth or paper around the pipe and the end of the hair dryer nozzle to form an temporary adapter.  Don't do this too long, you don't want to start a fire.

On the Honolulu docks what probably happens is that water condenses in the surface during the night and then the noon sun causes a high rate of evaporation assisted by fairly strong steady breezes.  It is not necessary for the plastic surface to be completely dry for a strong charge to accumulate, only that the rate of charging is faster than the conductivity bleeding the charge off.

One other thing.  Most of the recycled polyethylene used for such purposes already has a substiantial quantity of carbon black in it to prevent UV breakdown of the plastic.  Unfortunately,  it takes much more carbon black to render polyethylene conductive than it does rubber, enough to compromise the structural integrity of the polyethylene.

M.



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 24 13:01:59 2002
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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:00:04 -0400
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Subject: Indiana hum resembles Taos hum
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See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/23/national/23KOKO.html

This is probably caused by factory equipment. It is causing serious health 
problems.

- Jed

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Jed wrote:


> Robert Park wrote:
>
> >Should we remind NASA that it tested the hydrino claim 10 years
> >ago when BlackLight Power was still called HydroCatalysis?  NASA
> >was looking for a way to power a mission to Pluto.  Results were
> >"inconclusive."  That's NASA talk for "it didn't work."

Inconclusive can also mean that they saw some excess heat but the
implications of that are so radical that they would not make an official
statement without a lot more data and stronger signals.
>
> I believe that was a test of the Ni-H2O CF, which Mills claimed was
> actually caused by hydrinos. This latest test is quite different, if I
> understand correctly. It is not clear to me what Mills or Marchese (who
has
> the NASA contract) are up to.

That's easy. Mills has reported that a reaction between ionized helium and a
few percent hydrogen at a low gas pressure generates a humongous amount of
energy via the BLP reaction. The pressures involved are about 4 /10,000 of
atmospheric, in the range of an ion jet engine. What is wanted is to build
some version of a jet engine using this reaction and see what kind of
thrust can be produced for what expenditure of fuel. Both gases can be
contained at high pressure and fed into a reaction chamber. In principle,
substantial thrust with very high specific impulse might be achieved, a good
tool for space exploration and a lot better than the engines now used.
>
> As far as I know, NASA talks the same way as other scientists & engineers,
> so "inconclusive" means "inconclusive." Park should not mention this. When
> an important claim is tested and the result is inconclusive, that means
you
> should try again. If it had been decisively negative, that might argue
> against trying it again. This is not a second attempt at Ni-CF, but it
> should be -- as Park says.
>
> More recent Mills claims should also be tested, if Mills cooperates fully.
> If I were NASA, I would test Ni-CF in cooperation with Ota and Fujii, who
> are doing a better job than Mills, Thermacore or Patterson did.

Nothing in the CF world at the moment is as attractive to NASA as a plasma
jet engine based on the Mills reaction. It plugs in directly to existing
concepts. If it can work, it will be a major boost to Mills' position, being
a very high profile demonstration. The larger importance is not the engine
itself but the broader implications of Mills' technology.

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 24 17:19:06 2002
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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:20:45 -0400
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Subject: Lipson et al. detect charged particles
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Many ICCF-8 attendees seemed impressed by this paper. Unfortunately, I 
missed hearing it. Perhaps I should ask Gene for a recording. It was 
delivered by Miley because Lipson was unable to attend at the last minute, 
because of a strange mixup.

One of Miley's associates later explained to me that they use CR-39 instead 
of a more modern electronic detector because CR-39 fits into a tight space. 
Note this is a light water experiment!

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In-situ Charged Particles and X-ray Detection in Pd Thin-film Cathodes 
during Electrolysis in Li2SO4/H2O

A.G. Lipson (1) A.S. Roussetski (2) G.H. Miley (1) C.H. Castano (1)


1. University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, LENR Laboratory, 103 South 
Goodwin Avenue, Urbana, IL 61801-2984, USA
2. P.N. Lebedev Physics Institute, The Russian Academy of Sciences, 51 
Leninsky prospect, Moscow 117924 Russia

Measurements of long-range alpha and soft X-ray emissions have been 
performed using calibrated CR-39 plastic track and 
LiF/A12O3:C-Thermo-Luminescent (TLD) detectors. Application of CR-39 and 
TLD detectors to the surface of the thin Pd-film-cathodes sputtered on the 
insulator substrate (glass, Al203, PMMA) allows us to detect both charged 
particle and soft X-ray emissions simultaneously with excess heat 
measurements during electrolysis of those cathodes in Li2SO4/H2O solution.

For charged particle detection the purified "Radtrack" CR-39 plastic track 
detectors (with the size 2.0 x 1.0 cm2) by Landauer Inc. have been used. 
Especial purification procedure utilized for detector manufacturing as well 
as hermetic saving condition allow to minimize initial track density of 
these CR-39 pieces to the value less than 30 cm^-2. These detectors were 
calibrated with alpha-sources (in the range of 1.6 - 7.7 MeV) and by 
cyclotron alpha-beams (in the energy range of 8.0 - 30.0 MeV) as well as by 
proton beams with energy ranging of 2.0-3.0 MeV. In order to separate 
high-energy alphas and low-energy protons that could be possibly emitted 
during electrolysis runs, the thin Cu-foils were inserted between the 
cathode metal coating and the CR-39 surface. For in-situ detection of a 
weak and soft X-ray flux during electrolysis, single-crystal TLD (Landauer 
Inc.) covered with 100 micron polyethylene film were applied. Sensitivity 
of TLD with the size of S = 2.0 x 2.0 mm2 with respect to absorbed soft 
X-ray photons (with energy Ex >= 5.0 keV) was in the range from 0.1 
(A12O3:C) by the 1.0 (LiF) mrad. . . .

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 24 19:09:22 2002
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Subject: Re: Previous NASA test of BlackLight Power claims
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
To: "vortex l eskimo.com" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
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On 6/24/02 12:14 PM, "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

> Robert Park wrote:
> 
>> Should we remind NASA that it tested the hydrino claim 10 years
>> ago when BlackLight Power was still called HydroCatalysis?  NASA
>> was looking for a way to power a mission to Pluto.  Results were
>> "inconclusive."  That's NASA talk for "it didn't work."
> 
> I believe that was a test of the Ni-H2O CF, which Mills claimed was
> actually caused by hydrinos. This latest test is quite different, if I
> understand correctly. It is not clear to me what Mills or Marchese (who has
> the NASA contract) are up to.

The specific impulse of a rocket is proportional to the square root of the
quantity, absolute combustion temperature divided by the average molecular
weight of the exhaust products, that is:  Isp = k * sqrt(T/avg.MW). Specific
impulse in seconds multiplied by "little g" (9.8 m/sec^2) gives the rocket's
exhaust velocity in m/sec, the all-important driving factor in how efficient
or good a rocket is for space travel. Therefore, keeping the average MW of
exhaust products is as critical to rocket propulsion as the elevated
temperature of combustion or any other heating process, such as by the
thermal energizing of hydrogen gas by a solid, liquid, or gaseous fission
core rocket. In fact, the 1960s demonstrated high Isp of solid core fission
rockets (in ground tests in NV) -- about 800 seconds Isp, was due more to
the exhaust products avg.MW being closer that of to H or H2, rather than
H2O, as in the current shuttle main engine LH2/LO2 combustion (Isp near
400-450, I believe, but rusty on that fact).

So, I imagine Marchese will probably be testing the Isp of his test bed
Mills hydrino rocket. Based on a combination of the measured T and the
inferred avg.MW of the exhaust (based on Isp test-bed measurement), Marchese
might be able to demonstrate not only a good propulsion efficiency using
hydrino plasma, but might be able to draw conclusions about the likelihood
of the exhaust species being close in avg.MW to H. This is just speculation,
but I think reasonable speculation.
> 
> As far as I know, NASA talks the same way as other scientists & engineers,
> so "inconclusive" means "inconclusive."

This is just damned propaganda and lies (as usual) from Park, which
unfortunately Jed is repeating. The word "inconclusive" does not appear in
the NASA  technical report in any summary statement or any statement at all
that I can locate  (NASA TM 10777167), which Infinite Energy published IN
FULL in Issue #7, March-April 1996.  The report was very high quality.  The
authors went step by step and ruled out virtually all error sources except
the possibility of recombination -- though deemed by them as unlikely.  The
authors suggested more study was in order, given the extreme possible
payoff. THAT was the central and upfront message of the report -- not that
it was "inconclusive." In fact, this report subsequently led to the highly
successful MIT Lincoln lab reproduction with the same-sized (28L) cell (at a
cost to US Taxpayers of $75k).   Unfortunately, this report, which closed
off the recombination issue and in which other refinements were made, has
not been released to the public -- for "politically correct" reasons, of
course. I have seen the report under NDA.

The NASA report was no more "inconclusive" than the typical quality excess
heat-finding cold fusion report in light or heavy water.

> Park should not mention this. When
> an important claim is tested and the result is inconclusive, that means you
> should try again.

It has been tried now by at least Mills, Themacore, NASA, and MIT Lincoln
Lab. BLP/Mills has now moved onto what is obviously far more fertile ground
-- high temperature plasmas.


>If it had been decisively negative, that might argue
> against trying it again. This is not a second attempt at Ni-CF, but it
> should be -- as Park says.
> 
> More recent Mills claims should also be tested, if Mills cooperates fully.

Mills is publishing spectacular data which many labs have and will have the
ability and motivation to test. He is cooperating fully.  His recently
released water bath calorimetric study of a helium/hydrogen plasma, posted
at www.blacklightpower.com, is exemplary:

*****
"Plasma Power Source Based on a Catalytic Reaction of Atomic Hydrogen
Measured by Water Bath Calorimetry"

A 90%/10% helium/hydrogen plasma with a power gain of 3.7 (8.1 W ± 1 W of
microwave power in and 30 W ± 1 W of thermal power out).
*****



> If I were NASA, I would test Ni-CF in cooperation with Ota and Fujii, who
> are doing a better job than Mills, Thermacore or Patterson did.

Ota and Fujii's results do not even come close to what CETI (Patterson) had
and showed publicly (e.g. ICCF5), tested by Motorola, etc.  The power ratios
of CETI cells were very high -- 3/1 to 5/1 was "low" for CETI cells.  And,
according the Motorola graphs in the test report, substantial heat after
death was achieved (20 watts for at least 11 hours).  Ota and Fujii need to
do more work to find the "third element" (dopant) that makes such beaded
cells work as they do when they work very well. Patterson is at work doing
just that, following his realization of this third element aspect.   But I
think BlackLight is ahead of all the liquid-based CF systems.  Yet each
process will eventually have its place in technologies, I believe.
> 
> - Jed

- Gene Mallove
> 
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jun 24 23:25:17 2002
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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 20:22:01 -1000
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Bill -

>It doesn't take
>much conductivity to eliminate the effect.  (That's why you won't
>encounter it in Hawaii except in heavily air-conditioned office
>buildings.)

But...doesn't that blow your theory? Static electricity is almost unknown here except at high altitudes on the Big Island and Maui. At the Ala Wai, it's already humid, plus it's close to even more water vapor than usual. Must be that water vaporising trick. What really got my attention too was that only some people get shocked, and it reminded me of that lightning strike video during a soccer game where only members of one team was affected. Something about the uniforms, dye, fabric, that sort of thing. Something weird - maybe the molecules in one of the uniform's fabric had the 'correct' chirality or composition?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 25 08:40:54 2002
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http://www.firstscience.com/SITE/ARTICLES/bucky.asp

Buckyballs

The first transistors to be fashioned from a single "buckyball" - a 
molecule of carbon-60 - have been reported by scientists with the 
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab).

<more at web page>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 25 10:32:23 2002
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Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 13:07:45 -0400
From: Jed Rothwell<JedRothwell mindspring.com>
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

> As far as I know, NASA talks the same way as other scientists & engineers,
> so "inconclusive" means "inconclusive."

> This is just damned propaganda and lies (as
> usual) from Park, which
> unfortunately Jed is repeating.

It is not a lie at all. The report is inconclusive. Park is correct in this
case, proving that an (analog) stopped clock is right twice a day. The report
says: "Although our data admit the existence of an unusual source of heat
within the cell, it falls far short of being compelling." Maybe the data was
actually conclusive and the authors' judgement was poor, but in any case, the
conclusions in the report are inconclusive. The authors agree with me, and
disagree with Park: "a more thorough investigation . . . remains warranted."


>The word "inconclusive" does not appear in the
>NASA technical report in any summary statement
>or any statement at all that I can locate  
> (NASA TM 10777167), which Infinite Energy published IN
>FULL in Issue #7, March-April 1996.

The statements quoted above, from the Conclusion and Abstract are emphatically
inconclusive -- a nice oxymoron.


>The report was very high quality.  The authors
> went step by step and ruled out virtually all 
> error sources except the possibility of 
> recombination -- though deemed by them as 
> unlikely.

Not all sources. They left several open questions about linearity and other
issues, along with recombination. They said recombination is unlikely, but not
impossible.


>The NASA report was no more "inconclusive" than
>the typical quality excess heat-finding cold 
>fusion report in light or heavy water.

The quality of light water results has been very poor overall. The NASA report
is one of the best, and it is still not very convincing. It is hard to judge
what a "typical" heavy report is, but a few of the heavy water reports have
been extremely convincing, much better than any light water paper.


> If I were NASA, I would test Ni-CF in cooperation with Ota and Fujii, who
> are doing a better job than Mills, Thermacore or Patterson did.

>Ota and Fujii's results do not even come close > to what CETI (Patterson) had
and showed publicly
>(e.g. ICCF5), tested by Motorola, etc.

But their calorimetry is much better, and they have revealed more about their
materials. The Motorola tests were not published, so I cannot judge their
calorimetry.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 25 10:32:30 2002
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Subject: Off topic - tektronix TDS models question
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
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Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:31:28 +0400
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Hi,

I have usefulness question about Tektronix TDS series scopes (actually
a 500 MHz BW and 5 Gsa/sec TDS 3052B model) on non engineering application
like physics research. Where non-periodic, transients and any sort of
signal may be encounterd. If anybody have experience with these scopes
please write me. I need to make a decision between Tek 2465B 400 MHz, 
500 ps/div scope and the TDS3052B in the ***NEXT HOURS***.

Regards,

hamdi ucar 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 25 11:52:27 2002
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Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 14:51:45 -0700
Subject: Tom Valone on CNN Moneyline tonight
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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FROM Tom Valone:

Future Energy eNews                      June 23, 2002
 
After presenting and exhibiting at the "Innovative Energy Technologies
Congress" in Berlin, Germany last week (www.binnotec.org
<http://www.binnotec.org>  ), where we helped Binnotec to consider the same
inventor-investor assistance program as IRI, we returned to receive an
invitation from the CNN Washington DC Bureau for an interview. These are
both great opportunities for us to help spread the truth about energy
alternatives. In the CNN interview, the energy topics below will be
discussed, free from poltical favors and bias toward big business. The
upcoming  interview will be taped on Monday and aired on Tuesday, 6 PM,
Eastern time, on CNN, "Moneyline." Tune in or tape it if you can and let
others know.
 
As we stated in the headlines to our last printed Future Energy newsletter,
"Emerging Energy Technologies are Gaining Respectability." As an example,
this is especially true of a 13-year cold fusion research program which is
now summarized in a big Naval Research Laboratory Report #1862, where Dr.
Scott Chubb says, "Theory predicted the experiment and experiment verified
the theory." In the Foreword, Dr. Frank E. Gordon, Head of Navigation and
Applied Science Dept. of the S&NWSC says, "It is time for the government
funding organizations to invest in this research."
 Volume I, 3.5 Meg ~132 pages:
http://www.spawar.navy.mil/sti/publications/pubs/tr/1862/tr1862-vol1.pdf

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 25 12:23:56 2002
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Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 11:28:45 -0800
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From: hheffner mtaonline.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Off topic - tektronix TDS models question
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At 9:31 PM 6/25/2, hamdix verisoft.com.tr wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I have usefulness question about Tektronix TDS series scopes (actually
>a 500 MHz BW and 5 Gsa/sec TDS 3052B model) on non engineering application
>like physics research. Where non-periodic, transients and any sort of
>signal may be encounterd. If anybody have experience with these scopes
>please write me. I need to make a decision between Tek 2465B 400 MHz,
>500 ps/div scope and the TDS3052B in the ***NEXT HOURS***.
>
>Regards,
>
>hamdi ucar

I do not have experience with these scopes, but own a TDS220, a 100 MHz
scope that samples at 1 GHZ.  I can tell you that the channel separation is
very poor at high frequencies (over 1 MHz, and that at certain resonant
frequencies the channel cross-talk is very bad.  I have hd several
energyanomalies that turned out to be cross-tal in the scope.  Getting a
scope with optically isloated channels is very important for high frequency
physics work.

I would call TEK directly - they have engineers that do sales support.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 25 13:22:29 2002
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Subject: RE: Off topic - tektronix TDS models question
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 16:32:42 -0400
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Hi Horace and Hamdi.

I have a TDS360, and I'm wondering at what particular
frequencies Horace see's such cross-talk. I'd appreciate
the heads up, as I've not noticed such a problem yet
in my scope. Mostly my complaints have to do with the
data processing firmware.

I think the general concern is whether you can get a fast enough
rep rate for your signal to use the analog scope.
If it's truly a one shot deal, go with the digital scope,
as you'll never be happy with the analog. I rarely use
analog scopes for pulse work. They really are best
with continuous signals.

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:29 PM
To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Off topic - tektronix TDS models question


At 9:31 PM 6/25/2, hamdix verisoft.com.tr wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I have usefulness question about Tektronix TDS series scopes (actually
>a 500 MHz BW and 5 Gsa/sec TDS 3052B model) on non engineering application
>like physics research. Where non-periodic, transients and any sort of
>signal may be encounterd. If anybody have experience with these scopes
>please write me. I need to make a decision between Tek 2465B 400 MHz,
>500 ps/div scope and the TDS3052B in the ***NEXT HOURS***.
>
>Regards,
>
>hamdi ucar

I do not have experience with these scopes, but own a TDS220, a 100 MHz
scope that samples at 1 GHZ.  I can tell you that the channel separation is
very poor at high frequencies (over 1 MHz, and that at certain resonant
frequencies the channel cross-talk is very bad.  I have hd several
energyanomalies that turned out to be cross-tal in the scope.  Getting a
scope with optically isloated channels is very important for high frequency
physics work.

I would call TEK directly - they have engineers that do sales support.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 25 15:40:21 2002
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I am writing about Iwamura's ICCF-8 paper and the upcoming JJAP paper which 
I believe will be similar. The work of Iwamura and the people who pioneered 
transmutations, notably Bockris, Mizuno and Miley, has gradually eroded and 
finally overthrown some major assumptions that have guided cold fusion 
research from the start. These assumptions include the idea that the 
reaction must be occurring in palladium, that it requires high loading, and 
that pure palladium probably works best. In his closing remarks at ICCF-8, 
Michael McKubre finally put these ideas to rest.

McKubre's famous graph showing high loading correlated with excess heat is 
correct, I am convinced. Apparently it illustrates a special case. It 
applies to bulk palladium, probably palladium that is contaminated with a 
third element. McKubre et al. probably did not realize what this third 
element is or how important it is. With gas loading and other techniques, 
and with materials other than palladium, high loading is not important 
after all, and it may not be necessary.

Excessive devotion to this idea of high loading has held back the field. It 
may have been a dead-end, or at least a wrong turn. High loading is 
difficult to achieve. Thousands of man-hours and millions dollars have been 
spent trying and often failing to achieve it, especially in projects in the 
Japanese government and Japanese corporations. It is now fairly clear that 
these efforts were either doing things the hard way, or in the worst cases, 
it was a misguided waste of time. It is a shame that ideas common in the 
early days of the research have guided efforts so long, perhaps thwarting 
research into easier or more promising techniques.

The other day I quoted Francis Bacon. He warned us this might happen! In 
the paragraph I quoted, he warned against forming hypotheses too early, and 
giving hypotheses excessive influence over the interpretation of results 
later on:

"The human understanding, when any preposition has been once laid down, 
(either from general admission and belief, or from the pleasure it 
affords,) forces every thing else to add fresh support and confirmation; 
and although more cogent and abundant instances may exist to the contrary, 
yet either does not observe or despises them, or gets rid of and rejects 
them by some distinction, with violent and injurious prejudice, rather than 
sacrifice the authority of its first conclusions. . . ."

He says a great deal more about this and similar topics. A careful reading 
of his thesis might have prevented years of wasted effort, and saved 
millions of dollars.

It may seem odd for me to recommend a book written in 1620 as a guide to 
present day research. In research, it is probably best to use the latest 
instruments & software, and to consult the most up-to-date physics 
textbooks for formulas or advice on how to build a calorimeter, or whether 
a digital or analog oscilloscope is best for a pulse. Fleischmann thinks we 
should comb back issues of Nature for ideas overlooked decades ago. Perhaps 
we should, but for work-a-day bench level advice, you want the latest 
information. When it comes to advice on the big issues or guiding 
principles, advice written in 1620 is as good as the latest textbook. For 
questions such as: what should I do for the next two years, how can I avoid 
perceptual errors and dead ends, how do I recognize I am in a rut and climb 
out of it, Bacon is as relevant as a speech written last week by some Nobel 
laureate, or a cocky book by Richard Feynman.

The reason Bacon is still current is that the problems listed above are 
mainly psychological. They relate to our minds, a subject that has not 
progressed much since 1620. Freud, Skinner and psychiatry have made 
important contributions, but there has been no major breakthrough that 
obsoletes Bacon. Perhaps someday there will be, and we can then turn to 
modern experts confident that we are not missing some important principle 
in Bacon. People are trying to discover metaprinciples to guide research. 
They are researching the act of research itself. But in my opinion, so far 
they have not made much progress. For now you will learn as much from 
Shakespeare and Bacon as from the modern experts.

Experts in psychology probably realize how little progress they have made. 
Scientists in other fields are sometimes starkly ignorant of their own work 
habits, culture and mindset. They know not what they do! The nadir of 
self-knowledge may have been the reaction to James Watson's book "The 
Double Helix" (1968). This was the first honest, modern attempt to describe 
the politics and psychology of research.

A reprint edition "Double Helix" (Norton, 1980) includes some of the 
editorial comments and book reviews from scientific journals. Some of 
review comments frazzle the mind. These people were stuck in a Victorian 
era mindset. They cannot admit to themselves how people think and act! One 
called Watson "unbelievably mean-spirited, filled with a distorted and 
cruel perceptions of childish insecurity. . . [Watson's] is a world of envy 
and intolerance, a world of scorn and derision. . . . A world of intense 
ambition -- for the mundane prize, not the advancement of truth nor the 
service of humanity." The reviewer honestly believes himself and his 
colleagues to be . . . what? Boy scouts perhaps. Truth-seeking-machines, 
beyond ambition, without emotion, incapable of jealousy or politics. That 
mindset leaves a person vulnerable to the worst political abuse, prejudice 
and self-deception. We can only mitigate these failings when we admit we 
are prone to them.

Other reviewers realized that Watson was telling the truth about how 
science is done, and for that matter, how everything is done.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 25 16:04:20 2002
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On Mon, 24 Jun 2002, Michael Foster wrote:

> Creation of electrostatic charges by evaporation of water has a long
> history.  In 1840 Lord William G. Armstrong demonstrated a device that
> produced high voltage charges with high pressure steam jets.

Books state that the shape and materials of the orfice in these
"hydroelectric" devices is critical, just as you'd expect if they worked
by "contact electrification."


> You take a length of PVC pipe and run a moist cloth or paper towel
> through it with a rod longer than the pipe, similar to cleaning a gun
> barrel.  There should be just enough water deposited on the inner wall
> of the PVC pipe to render it damp but not dripping.  You then take a
> hair dryer and attach it to to the pipe in order to blow warm air though
> it.  It isn't necessary for the air to be very hot to make this work.
> As the water evaporates from the interior of the PVC pipe it aquires a
> very definite high voltage charge and if you have attached strips of
> paper to the outside of the pipe, they will stand straight out.  It's
> been quite a while since I did this, but as I recall the pipe was
> charged negatively.

Cool!   As far as I know, your simple experiment is totally unknown in the
electrostatics biz.   I gotta try it.


If the pipe is charged negative, I wonder if the humid air coming out of
the pipe is positive?

And I wonder if it still works if you let the pipe dry thoroughly first?
Or if you turn off the heat? Is it truly caused by rapid evaporation, or
is it some sort of thermal effect from the high temperature gradient on
the plastic surface?




> On the Honolulu docks what probably happens is that water condenses in
> the surface during the night and then the noon sun causes a high rate of
> evaporation assisted by fairly strong steady breezes.  It is not
> necessary for the plastic surface to be completely dry for a strong
> charge to accumulate, only that the rate of charging is faster than the
> conductivity bleeding the charge off.

A question about the original story:  what actually is happening?  Are
human bodies getting charged up?   Or is it something else?

Contrary to popular opinion, humid air is not conductive.  Instead, we
rarely see electrostatic effects in humid environments because the humid
air makes surfaces slightly conductive.  However, if you first "bake out"
a plastic surface, then it can serve as an electrostatic "contact
generator" even when humidity is high.   During winter, getting zapped by
doorknobs isn't so strange.  In Hawaii, if you walk across extremely hot
plastic and avoid touching any dirt or concrete, getting zapped when you
touch a metal object isn't so weird.  But the situation is rare, so
"static zaps" on Hawaii might seem very bizarre.



(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 25 16:05:32 2002
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Subject: Re: Off topic - tektronix TDS models question
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 03:04:51 +0400
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Hi All,

Thank you very much for your help. TDS 3052B appears a very capable scope with functions  an analog scope can never do.  Harvey Norris also wrote me off-line pointing a discussion on yahoo tesla group ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/message/288 ) where his argument is shown in a analog scope shot.

             "I always wondered how a digital scope would record a
             phenomenon of exessive rf bursts per time period. In
             the beginning of work with rf from huge inductors this
             multitracing phenomenon was very common. With every
             "ordinary" scope I have tried one gets a phenomenon of
             multitracing as shown at
             http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/BRMA/Dzl9356.jpg
             This was made at 5 us/div from a very low ~31,250 hz,
             from bifilar inductor subjected to impossibly high BPS
             rates, made via small bulb neon polar discharge. How
             would a digital scope deal with that? HDN"


I saw such patterns on my "bipeg" circuit early 1977. I am not sure a digital scope can properly display such a waveform but I am also not sure without analyzes this pattern provide good information. 

Now, the analog scope auction ends 1 hour later and the digital one 2 days later, so I dont want to lost opportunity to get the analog one to a reasonable price, as the digital one probable will be sold $1000 to $2000 more than this. There are very experienced bidders which bids on last 15 seconds so it is hard to bid auctions without very fast internet connection and experience. From your information, now I gain more confidence on this digital scope, so if I fail to get the analog one now, I could spend to the limit of my budget on the digital.

Regards,

hamdi ucar


Keith Nagel wrote:
> 
> Hi Horace and Hamdi.
> 
> I have a TDS360, and I'm wondering at what particular
> frequencies Horace see's such cross-talk. I'd appreciate
> the heads up, as I've not noticed such a problem yet
> in my scope. Mostly my complaints have to do with the
> data processing firmware.
> 
> I think the general concern is whether you can get a fast enough
> rep rate for your signal to use the analog scope.
> If it's truly a one shot deal, go with the digital scope,
> as you'll never be happy with the analog. I rarely use
> analog scopes for pulse work. They really are best
> with continuous signals.
> 
> K.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:29 PM
> To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr; vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Off topic - tektronix TDS models question
> 
> At 9:31 PM 6/25/2, hamdix verisoft.com.tr wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >I have usefulness question about Tektronix TDS series scopes (actually
> >a 500 MHz BW and 5 Gsa/sec TDS 3052B model) on non engineering application
> >like physics research. Where non-periodic, transients and any sort of
> >signal may be encounterd. If anybody have experience with these scopes
> >please write me. I need to make a decision between Tek 2465B 400 MHz,
> >500 ps/div scope and the TDS3052B in the ***NEXT HOURS***.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >hamdi ucar
> 
> I do not have experience with these scopes, but own a TDS220, a 100 MHz
> scope that samples at 1 GHZ.  I can tell you that the channel separation is
> very poor at high frequencies (over 1 MHz, and that at certain resonant
> frequencies the channel cross-talk is very bad.  I have hd several
> energyanomalies that turned out to be cross-tal in the scope.  Getting a
> scope with optically isloated channels is very important for high frequency
> physics work.
> 
> I would call TEK directly - they have engineers that do sales support.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 25 16:07:28 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: C60 Gate
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:06:01 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Tue, 25 Jun 2002 11:38:38 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]

>http://www.firstscience.com/SITE/ARTICLES/bucky.asp
>
>Buckyballs
>
>The first transistors to be fashioned from a single "buckyball" - a 

They keep saying "transistors", but I saw nothing that implied any form
of amplification, hence no real transistor effect.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

....Put the "bottom line" at the top!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 25 17:05:44 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <hamdix@verisoft.com.tr>
Subject: RE: Off topic - tektronix TDS models question
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 20:15:47 -0400
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Hi All.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/BRMA/Dzl9356.jpg

Jesus, what a mess!

Harvey has a trigger problem, to start with. The waveform
being measured is long and varied, and the trigger is firing
every couple of cycles of the fundamental shown on the screen.
Hence the weird "multitrace". A digital scope would have the
same problem, although the resulting display would vary depending
on whether averaging was being used. You need a trigger that's
meaningful to the whole waveform and not just the fundamental.

IMHO, both types of scope are essential for experimental work,
each complement the weaknesses of the other. Analog scopes
really shine when you want to look at modulation, or tune something
precisely, or look for a resonance. Digital is best for pulse
work, especially single shot. That you can get at the data with
a computer is a big plus too.

One of the ways digital scopes get high sample rate is by
taking an average of a number of shots, varying the trigger
point slightly and precisely. You get great sample rates
with this trick, but forget about it for that
one-night-and-one-night-only event.

K.



-----Original Message-----
From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr [mailto:hamdix@verisoft.com.tr]
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 7:05 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Off topic - tektronix TDS models question


Hi All,

Thank you very much for your help. TDS 3052B appears a very capable scope
with functions  an analog scope can never do.  Harvey Norris also wrote me
off-line pointing a discussion on yahoo tesla group
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/message/288 ) where his argument is
shown in a analog scope shot.

             "I always wondered how a digital scope would record a
             phenomenon of exessive rf bursts per time period. In
             the beginning of work with rf from huge inductors this
             multitracing phenomenon was very common. With every
             "ordinary" scope I have tried one gets a phenomenon of
             multitracing as shown at
             http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teslafy/files/BRMA/Dzl9356.jpg
             This was made at 5 us/div from a very low ~31,250 hz,
             from bifilar inductor subjected to impossibly high BPS
             rates, made via small bulb neon polar discharge. How
             would a digital scope deal with that? HDN"


I saw such patterns on my "bipeg" circuit early 1977. I am not sure a
digital scope can properly display such a waveform but I am also not sure
without analyzes this pattern provide good information.

Now, the analog scope auction ends 1 hour later and the digital one 2 days
later, so I dont want to lost opportunity to get the analog one to a
reasonable price, as the digital one probable will be sold $1000 to $2000
more than this. There are very experienced bidders which bids on last 15
seconds so it is hard to bid auctions without very fast internet connection
and experience. From your information, now I gain more confidence on this
digital scope, so if I fail to get the analog one now, I could spend to the
limit of my budget on the digital.

Regards,

hamdi ucar


Keith Nagel wrote:
>
> Hi Horace and Hamdi.
>
> I have a TDS360, and I'm wondering at what particular
> frequencies Horace see's such cross-talk. I'd appreciate
> the heads up, as I've not noticed such a problem yet
> in my scope. Mostly my complaints have to do with the
> data processing firmware.
>
> I think the general concern is whether you can get a fast enough
> rep rate for your signal to use the analog scope.
> If it's truly a one shot deal, go with the digital scope,
> as you'll never be happy with the analog. I rarely use
> analog scopes for pulse work. They really are best
> with continuous signals.
>
> K.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Horace Heffner [mailto:hheffner mtaonline.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 3:29 PM
> To: hamdix verisoft.com.tr; vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Off topic - tektronix TDS models question
>
> At 9:31 PM 6/25/2, hamdix verisoft.com.tr wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >I have usefulness question about Tektronix TDS series scopes (actually
> >a 500 MHz BW and 5 Gsa/sec TDS 3052B model) on non engineering
application
> >like physics research. Where non-periodic, transients and any sort of
> >signal may be encounterd. If anybody have experience with these scopes
> >please write me. I need to make a decision between Tek 2465B 400 MHz,
> >500 ps/div scope and the TDS3052B in the ***NEXT HOURS***.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >hamdi ucar
>
> I do not have experience with these scopes, but own a TDS220, a 100 MHz
> scope that samples at 1 GHZ.  I can tell you that the channel separation
is
> very poor at high frequencies (over 1 MHz, and that at certain resonant
> frequencies the channel cross-talk is very bad.  I have hd several
> energyanomalies that turned out to be cross-tal in the scope.  Getting a
> scope with optically isloated channels is very important for high
frequency
> physics work.
>
> I would call TEK directly - they have engineers that do sales support.
>
> Regards,
>
> Horace Heffner


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jun 25 22:13:07 2002
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
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Here's the full text article and photos in case anyone's interested:

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2002/Jun/22/ln/ln22a.html

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 26 05:20:00 2002
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>They keep saying "transistors", but I saw nothing that implied any form
>of amplification, hence no real transistor effect.
>

Right, that's why I called it a gate, a molecular switch if you will.

Terry


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 26 08:26:06 2002
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Subject: Cyril Smith review of Berlin free energy conference
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Someone sent me this interesting review. The conference sounds more lively 
than a cold fusion conference, but less credible. I have heard most of 
these claims before, but most of the papers at ICCF-8 were partial or full 
repetitions of previous papers.

I made a few corrections to this paper:

sodium => strontium (in Iwamura experiment)
Meyers => Meyer
. . . some spelling errors.

I think Smith is too forgiving. In my opinion, most of these claims have no 
credibility. What is worse, many could be verified easily, so there is no 
excuse for not testing them. There are legitimate reasons why some devices 
have not been independently verified. Some are difficult to reproduce or 
operate. Some are expensive. Fermilab is the only place on earth equipped 
to detect the top quark. Mitsubishi is the only lab run by people willing 
to spend the money on their transmutation experiments, although other 
researchers have seen similar results. Some devices require specialized, 
expensive instruments to test. The Griggs machine excess heat has only been 
verified independently in five tests, as far as I know, because it is so 
big and unwieldy, and the instruments used to test it are expensive. 
However, most of the machines described in this conference do not fall in 
these categories. They could be verified far more easily than the top quark 
or the Cs => Pr transmutation Iwamura observed, and they should be.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Here is a review from Cyril Smith of the Berlin free energy conference held 
June 13th to 15th 2002.  Here are some pictures of it:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/hartiberlin3

Notes from the 2nd Berlin Conference on Innovative Energy Technologies, 
13-25th June, 2002, by Cyril Smith.

1. General Impressions.

The Conference was a local one (although the speakers were international) 
so the main language was German. I could not follow some of the 
presentations given in German (those which had no visual aids!) so this 
precis is incomplete. However it will give you my perspective as an 
independent engineer and scientist, but please accept that I do have 
prejudices, as do we all.

I was encouraged to feel that much of what is happening in the new energy 
field is beginning to be taken seriously by mainstream science, but there 
is a long way to go before it gets fully accepted. However the cause is not 
helped by what I call "wierdo science", such as calling up paranormal 
experiences (like seeing the inside of flying saucers) and presenting this 
as a possible way forward. Or by using "patterns" or "resonances" that 
occur in Nature as though these by themselves are capable of creating a new 
science. There were fanatics wedded to their particular "religion", their 
discovery (or even re-discovery of old long discarded tenets); without good 
science to back their claims, this enables the establishment to brand us 
all, as heretics, wierdos, and so on. Unfortunately this conference had its 
share of "wierdos" so I suspect it will not get a very good press review. 
That is a pity because in certain areas there is a lot of good science, 
with reliable repeatable results, indicating that there is a worthwhile 
journey into the unknown, and it is encouraging to find eminent scientists 
staking their reputation by openly delving into these controversial areas.

Another aspect which irritated me was the "hangers on". These are people 
who like to be seen identified with the new technologies, who write books 
about them, but whose real aim in life is to make money by selling their 
books. Maybe they do serve a purpose in getting information out to the 
general population, and maybe my irritation comes from spending 5 euros 
(that's about $5) on a publication only to find that most everything in it 
is available for free on the web, that I already had 99% any way, and the 
odd 1% was not worth the paper it was written on!!
Apart from that bookstand there was a larger one selling good quality books 
(here all in German but many also available in English) covering most of 
the unconventional new sciences.

2. The Presentations

2.1 Prof. Josef Gruber

Prof. Gruber is president of the German Association for Space Energy (GASE, 
or DVR in Germany) which was originally formed in 1981 under Dr Hans 
Napier. Prof. Gruber has been president since 1997. In 2001 their charter 
was modified so that their aims are now to collect, distribute and apply 
information on useful space energy, and on transmutions for new materials 
and for remediation of nuclear waste. Their 1st vice president is Dr 
Konstatin Meyl, and 2nd vice is Dr Gerd Hanns. They publish a bimonthly 
journal in German free to members at www.k-meyl.de/DVR/dvv.html. They are 
pressing for an International body, trying to establish the International 
New Energy Foundation (INES) to legitimise the theoretical foundation of 
space energy technology. They also have connections to the Gode Foundation 
for Science, Institute for Gravitational Research www.gravitation.org.

2.2 Tom Valone

Tom is the fellow who took my $5 so this review is prejudiced!! He seems to 
head up "The Integrity Research Institute" which publishes a quarterly news 
letter "Future Energy". They also have a large number of publications, many 
of them edited, written or presented by Tom! I looked through many with 
Tom's name on the cover and they all looked similar to me, collections of 
already available publications, web postings and e-mails.

Tom gave an overview of emerging technologies, such as the "cold-fog 
accelerator" work of Peter Granau now being developed by George Hathaway, 
and the charge cluster work of Ken Shoulders (more on these later). He 
mentioned an electrostatic motor containing electrets and using atmospheric 
electricity which produces 0.1HP, with potential of 200 Gwatts!! (later 
Harold Aspden poured cold water on this claim), and the betavoltaic battery 
with 24W/Kg power to weight ratio. Photoremediation of nuclear waste, 
cleaning up the waste and getting energy by bombardment with low energy 
(10Mev) photons, a technique which was predicted to produce 20MW output 
from 1MW input. A thin-film electrolytic cell (cold fusion) giving 10X OU. 
He showed an old patent (I have seen it before) with an inhomogenous 
magnetic field pulling an iron ball up a ramp (shades of Greg's SMOT 
here!), then claimed the Johnson motor does this in a circle. Homopolar 
generators such as De-Palma, Roschin, Godin, showing up to 35% weight loss 
and temperature drops suggested that they were taking energy from the 
environment. He mentioned the Searl device, field propulsion and 
electrogravitics, then claimed that the US military already use this 
technology on the Stealth Bomber, see www.disclosureproject.com. Inertia 
shielding using HV fields and the De Aquino gravity modifying effect were 
mentioned in connection with www.soteria.com. Tom then went overboard, 
showing some artist's impressions of the insides of flying saucers 
suggesting that these could lead us to a better understanding for potential 
space energy products!!

2.3 Jorg Schauberger

Jorg schauberger is the grandson of Viktor Schauberger, and his 
presentation was all about his grandfather's 19th century technologies. 
These are based on spirals and vortices obeying certain math rules, and is 
almost a religion among the Schauberger followers. Outside the hall there 
was a number of Schauberger demonstrations which to me looked pretty silly, 
like stirring up a vortex in water to show a hen's egg rising upwards! I 
think this is junk.

2.4 Peter Granau

This certainly wasn't junk. He talks about exploding arcs, and pointed out 
that although lightning has been studied for centuries, only recently has 
the acoustic thunder been explained. Lightning is generally a cold arc 
(discovered in 1989), it is NOT a hot plasma, so where does the thunder 
come from? Because there is an explosion of air. A molecular bond is broken 
and this releases energy. It is the N2 molecule which is split (into two N 
atoms), releasing 3.6ev of energy from each bond. Lightning is an OU 
generator!!

Peter's work is to do with underwater arcs, and in this case it is the 
water molecule which splits, releasing up to 10ev of energy. His exploding 
arcs expel a supersonic slug of "cold fog" from the muzzle, there is no 
steam, no heat. But this "fog" can punch holes in aluminum plates, and the 
energy of the slug can be measured by such means. There is more energy in 
the slug than is available in the capacitor discharge which produces the 
arc! There is also evidence that long-filament arcs create neutrons! The 
Griggs hydrosonic pump, which exploits the water hammer effect to heat 
water, and creates more energy in the hot water than is put into the drive 
motor, can now be explained by this molecular bond breaking.

2.5 Neil Granau

Neil's work is with air arcs, and particularly on a form of 
magnetohydrodynamic generator (MHD). The electrodynamic forces on a plasma 
filament are radially inwards (pinch effect) whereas the explosion is 
radially outward, moving against the ED force. These expanding arcs 
therefore generate forward emf, so the arc appears as a negative resistor. 
There is a direct conversion of the mechanical energy into electrical 
energy which adds to the arc current, and this energy has come from the 
molecular bond breaking. A series resistor in the arc path dissipates 
energy as heat, and you get more energy coming out as heat than was 
available electrically in the discharge capacitor. This makes for a simple 
OU generator. Measured results show output energies up to 20% greater than 
input.

2.6 Zlatko Loncar ("Shad" to those on the ou-builders list)

Shad gave a talk and a demonstration of his experiments into water 
dissociation. He has two methods, one which utilizes magnetic resonance (?) 
with pulsed current, the other uses only the energy of pumping through his 
"neutrino diffuser". His demo's produced bubbles which collected at the 
surface as a froth. This froth could be ignited to burn away quickly with a 
small explosion. His water gradually turned brown during the process. There 
is no doubt about the water dissociation into hydrogen and oxygen, but 
there was no measurement evidence presented for OU. Maybe this will come 
later if Shad can get some financial backing for his work.

2.7 Paramahamsa Tewari

Tewari was not present. The presentation was a poor quality video of Tewari 
with his big machine. There was no great technical expanation, and one 
gained little from watching a big electric motor driving a big electric 
generator. Especially as the background noise drowned Tewari's voice! I was 
not impressed.

2.8 Hal Fox

Hal Fox is editor of the Journal of New Energy published by the Insitute of 
New Energy (INE). They have searched the new energy field for 13 years and 
deem the following four devices ready for commercialization.
High density electron charge clusters (HDCC), see for example US patent 
5,018,180, claimed to be the first patent to state that the excess energy 
comes from tapping the zero point energy of the vacuum. Hal Fox's Utah 
group, Emerging Energy Marketing Firm Inc. (EMMF) has the exclusive rights 
to all six US patents issued. First discovered by Ken Shoulders before 
1987, HDDC's have been independently discovered by other reseachers. In 
about 1989-1980 the late Stan Gleeson discovered the process in a water 
solution, but the work was not published until 1996. In the early 1990's Dr 
Alexander Ilyanok (a Belarussian) invented a new type of flat panel display 
which was astonishingly similar to one of Ken Shoulder's embodiments. Dr 
Ilyanok knew nothing of the work of Shoulders, but had independantly 
discovered the same charge clusters and had observed the same quantized 
sizes of 20 microns and 50 microns. In 1996 Dr Mesyats and Dr Baraboshkin 
discoverd and worked with HDCC's in Russia.

A HDDC is composed of a stable configuration, and is depicted as a toroid 
of moving electrons (rather like a smoke ring), having experimentally 
observed dimensions from 0.5 to about 3 microns. However charge clusters 
are seldom produced as a single "particle" but as several or many clusters 
which have the ability to form into a necklace of clusters. Such arrays 
have been found to be in the region of 20 microns diameter or 50 microns 
diameter, and there is some evidence for a 140 micron array. There is as 
yet no theory to explain this quantization.
HDDC's bore holes through aluminum. They bore holes through wax but this 
shows no signs of melting. HDCC can be used to provide direct electrical 
output, up to 30 times the energy input. A capacitor discharge pulse is fed 
into a discharge tube of low pressure gas. The other end of the tube is 
returned to the pulse source via a load resistor. The energy dissipated in 
this load resistor is always less than the energy from the capacitor. 
However there is wound around the cylindrical tube a wire helix connected 
to another load resistor. Additional energy is dissipated in this load, up 
to 30 times the capacitor energy. A properly funded R&D effort could 
produce a commercial prototype within two years.
When HDDC's are produced in water it is found that they can transmute 
radioactive elements dissolved in the water. Up to 90% reduction of 
radioactive thorium from solution has been achieved in a 30 minute process 
using a combination of high pressure and high temperature. This is an 
important discovery with respect to the treatment of radioactive waste. 
Transmutation also has other commercial prospects. Brackish water (salt 
water) has been shown to produce palladium, an element which is not very 
abundant and hence very costly. And the water was improved to that of 
agricultural quality.

HDCC's in water also produce thermal energy, and this could be harnessed in 
the usual way.

Another prospect is for a low energy proton accelerator. A HDDC can attach 
itself to protons, forming a combined cluster having a hundred billion 
electrons and a hundred thousand protons. This is still highly negatively 
charged, so can be accelerated with relatively low voltage, like 5KV as 
compared to the 9MV of typical proton accelerators. And you should get a 
proton density on target that is about one million times larger than any 
previous positive ion or proton accelerator. Proton bombardment is known to 
reduce radioactivity, so there is potential for the development of a 
machine for on site transmutation of high-level-radioactive solids. Hal's 
team lobbied the committee responsible for the allocation of funds at the 
US D of E, and they were so impressed that they voted $9million for this 
work. However the D of E mandarins, no doubt on advice from their 
scientists that low energy transmutation is impossible, shunted this money 
into their National Labs for more of the same high energy work.

Energy from Hydrogen. Dr Randell Mills (www.blacklightpower.com) has 
processes which produce large amounts of thermal energy and a new form of 
hydrogen called "hydrino".

Koldamasov has a device which uses a mixture of light water (90%) and heavy 
water (10%) in a cylindrical container. There is a wall across the middle 
of this container so that it is divided into two cylinders end to end. A 
small hole through this wall couples the two halves, then a piezo electric 
vibrator on one end drives the mixture back and forth through this hole. 
According to Koldamasov neutrons are produced which then create energy 
producing nuclear reactions. He claims 2KW of electrical energy producing 
40KW of thermal energy.

Hal Fox had the MEG in his published paper, but he ran out of time so never 
got round to talking about it. I asked him if he had witnessed a working 
MEG, the answer was no. But he did say that the MEG was a tricky thing, and 
the important thing was the fast rise time of the switching.

2.9 Bernhard Schaeffer

Didn't follow his talk but he did have a working demo. This was a small 
flywheel on a horizontal axis, driven by a belt from a smaller pulley wheel 
below. The belt was in fact a continuous length of memory metal wire. When 
the lower end of the belt was put into warm water, the flywheel would 
continually rotate. There was always tension on one side of the belt 
different to that on the other side, due to the memory metal changing state 
as it passed from air temperature to water temperature.

2.10 Dr Surya Sripada

Dr Sripada gave an interesting talk on the second law of thermodynamics, 
and pointed out that there were theoretical examples in Nature where it is 
violated. One example is gravity where it can be shown that EM radiation 
between two bodies which would otherwise cause them to ultimately reach the 
same temperature is offset by the gravitational potential.

2.11 Joan Davis

There is now strong evidence that transmutation of elements goes on in 
biological systems. The following transmutations are known to occur: -

Sodium + Oxygen => Potassium
Potassium + Hydrogen => Calcium
Magnesium + Oxygen => Calcium

Experiments consist of starving the living organism of a certain element, 
then analyzing and weight recording the chemicals it produces. As an 
example chickens starved of calcium still manage to produce egg shells made 
up mostly of calcium. If these low energy transmutations go on in Nature, 
surely the scientific establishment must accept that transmutations can be 
produced in the laboratory.

2.12 Harold Aspden

(His notes for this address can be found at: 
www.energyscience.co.uk/le/le27/notes.html)

It appears that he has had difficulties in getting large machines with 
powerful magnets to work, so he has lost enthusiasm for this aspect. 
Recently he has been looking at other OU devices going back into patent 
history and believes he has found a link. He quoted US patent 119825 from 
1871, invented by Daniel McFarland Cork. This consisted of two cylindrical 
solenoids each with a core and each having two layers of winding separated 
by a dielectric. When connected in a certain manner this produced DC 
electricity. This was before Edison and before Tesla. Then there was Dr 
Henry Moray's device which used the earth's electric field to charge a 
cylindrical capacitor and generate kilowatts of power. According to Aspden 
the earth's E field could not give this order of power, so it had to come 
from the aether. Next there is the Testatika which has a Wimshurst like 
spinning disc, and cylindrical capacitors in the form of Leyden Jars. The 
common theme in all these is the cylindrical shape of the capacitor. 
According to Aspden's aether theory the aether carries charged particles 
which move in unison about small orbits. Within a stong E field the orbits 
are distorted, but the usual parallel plate configuration does not give 
access to this spin distortion. You need a cylindrical geometry to gain 
energy from the aether spin. Aspden quoted other devices that involved 
cylinders. Jeffrey Spence (US patent number not quoted) had a cylindrical 
co-axial vacuum tube (diode) with an applied magnetic field, a bit like a 
magnetron without cavities but the inner cylinder is the anode. Cathode 
guns mounted tangentially on the outside shoot electrons which spiral 
inwards. Claimed to give out more energy than is put in. Also the Meyer 
water splitting cell is cylindrical.

2.13 Paulo and Alexandra Correa

The major part of this presentation was a video of Paulo Correa 
"demonstrating" his equipment. I found this quite obnoxious. It was a 
home-made video made to look like a professional film production (with the 
credits naming themselves), unnecessary music, an "in memorium" section to 
past researchers (with music), and the main part of the presentation was 
simply rubbish (like a written sign saying "PAGD connected to K2232 
spinner" then a view of the lab equipment showing the little motor 
spinning. This went on ad nauseam, no technical details at all). The video 
was preceded by a talk where Correa showed the EM spectrum with the 
classical solar energy curve and another one of similar shape at smaller 
wavelengths labelled "orgone radiation". I do not know what orgone 
radiation is or what evidence there is for its existence. An "orgone 
accumulator" played a part in his video but there was no explanation as to 
what this consists of. I got the impression that a scientific investigation 
into the very real but abnormal effects in glow discharges has gone astray, 
wandering into the paranormal. I am a scientist who wants to believe in 
these new technologies, and in my view the Correa presentation was a public 
relations disaster.

2.14 Dr Konstantin Meyl

This talk was on new developments in Scalar Waves and Nutrino power. Being 
in German I could not follow it, but I did recognise most of the 
electrodynamic equations leading to math descriptions for Tesla waves. I 
hope to get a transcript of this presentation for further study. Dr Meyl 
had a little demonstration of signal coupling between two spheres which 
presumably was intended to show the presence of londitudinal waves. In my 
opinion the coupling was due to the self capacitance of the spheres.

2.15 Jean Manning

Jean is a Canadian author who has taken an interest in the new energy field 
and written several books about it. She mentioned a few, such as the bubble 
fusion paper published in March 2002 in the INE magazine. Misubishi Heavy 
Industries in Japan have transmuted cesium to the very rare praseodymium, 
and also strontium to molybdenum; these results will soon be published in 
the Japanese Journal of Physics. Cold fusion is here to stay!! She talked 
of photo-remediation of nuclear waste, water injected gasoline engines 
where the water is split into H and O2 in the injection process, the Meyer 
fuel cell where work continues in Canada, the Hyde generator, Al Francoeur 
and his Radiant energy device, the Hutchinson crystal converter (see 
www.evolvedtechnology.com), the MEG and Brown's Gas. 

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William Beaty wrote:

> Books state that the shape and materials of the orfice in these
> "hydroelectric" devices is critical, just as you'd expect if
> they worked by "contact electrification."

True, but the orfices and other materials in these devices were all conductors, allowing for quick charge dissipation under non-boiling conditions.  All of the early experimenters came to the conclusion that the charge had to be the result of boiling and not "quiet evaporation".  None, however, thought to remove the water vapor by simply blowing it away, thereby removing the possibly charged water vapor from the surface of separation, thus keeping the opposite charges from dissipating and neutralizing each other.  This is, of course, what I did in my experiment and what might be happening on the Honolulu docks.

It seems to me that it would be almost impossible not to create a charge separation with the change of state of almost any substance, but maintaining the charge separation after it happens is another matter.

> Cool!   As far as I know, your simple experiment is totally unknown in
> the electrostatics biz.   I gotta try it.

Of course it's unknown in the electrostatics biz, nobody's been doing any serious work with this sort of thing for 150 years.  My experiment would no doubt have been the hit of the mid 19th century, contradicting, as it does, the work of the great Michael Faraday.  I have a whole pile of simple electrostatic experiments that would seem to contradict conventional wisdom on the subject, but you could count those interested on the fingers of one hand.



> If the pipe is charged negative, I wonder if the humid air coming out of
> the pipe is positive?

I didn't get that far, but I am curious about that as well.


 
> And I wonder if it still works if you let the pipe dry thoroughly first?
> Or if you turn off the heat? Is it truly caused by rapid evaporation, or
> is it some sort of thermal effect from the high temperature gradient on
> the plastic surface?

This only works if the pipe is wet on the inside and ceases to work after it's dry.

> Contrary to popular opinion, humid air is not conductive.  Instead, we
> rarely see electrostatic effects in humid environments because the humid
> air makes surfaces slightly conductive.  However, if you first "bake
> out"

Even though humid air is only slightly more conductive than dry air it can carry a much larger charge than dry air.  In other words, it can carry more Coulombs per cubic meter.  Therefore, it can remove charges from surfaces by convection, if the air is moving.

I have observed the following: If a charged object is held by an insulating rod, also charged, and the the charged object is held over a steaming container of water, the charge is removed even though no conductivity was provided along the insulating rod.  In avoiding exposing the insulating rod to the water vapor, the rod itself remains charged thereby showing that it did not become a conductive path.

This stuff must bore the crap out of people not directly involved in it.

M.



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On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> A reprint edition "Double Helix" (Norton, 1980) includes some of the
> editorial comments and book reviews from scientific journals. Some of
> review comments frazzle the mind. These people were stuck in a Victorian
> era mindset. They cannot admit to themselves how people think and act! One
> called Watson "unbelievably mean-spirited, filled with a distorted and
> cruel perceptions of childish insecurity. . . [Watson's] is a world of envy
> and intolerance, a world of scorn and derision. . . . A world of intense
> ambition -- for the mundane prize, not the advancement of truth nor the
> service of humanity." The reviewer honestly believes himself and his
> colleagues to be . . . what? Boy scouts perhaps. Truth-seeking-machines,
> beyond ambition, without emotion, incapable of jealousy or politics.

If I eliminate all my intolerance, crude ambition, jealousy, etc., that
makes me an emotionless machine?  On the contrary, there are more emotions
besides envy, and more human drives besides the desire for publicity.


> That mindset leaves a person vulnerable to the worst political abuse,
> prejudice and self-deception. We can only mitigate these failings when
> we admit we are prone to them.

Admitting we are prone to them doesn't mean welcoming them or reveling in
them.

> Other reviewers realized that Watson was telling the truth about how
> science is done, and for that matter, how everything is done.

You're convinced that most scientists are only in it for the prestige, to
beat the other guy, etc.?  You've really never met people who value truth
above ambition; who do research mostly because it's fascinating, or
because it stands a chance of making the world a better place?

Watson's book reveals a side of science which scientists wrongly try to
hide, but it's just one side.



(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
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Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

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On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Michael Foster wrote:

> > Cool!   As far as I know, your simple experiment is totally unknown in
> > the electrostatics biz.   I gotta try it.
>
> Of course it's unknown in the electrostatics biz, nobody's been doing
> any serious work with this sort of thing for 150 years.

Not true:

  Journal of Electrostatics
  http://henry.ee.rochester.edu:8080/journals/elstat/

  Electrostatics Society of America
  http://www.electrostatics.org/

  Electrostatics book catalog
  http://www.electrostatic.com/catalog.htm

  ESA/IEJ joint conference, June 26 2002, Evanston IL
  http://www.electrostatics.org/Announcements/esaprelim.htm


> My experiment
> would no doubt have been the hit of the mid 19th century, contradicting,
> as it does, the work of the great Michael Faraday.  I have a whole pile
> of simple electrostatic experiments that would seem to contradict
> conventional wisdom on the subject, but you could count those interested
> on the fingers of one hand.

Are they on the www anywhere?  Does anyone in the electrostatics research
community know about them?


> Even though humid air is only slightly more conductive than dry air it
> can carry a much larger charge than dry air.  In other words, it can
> carry more Coulombs per cubic meter.  Therefore, it can remove charges
> from surfaces by convection, if the air is moving.

>
> I have observed the following: If a charged object is held by an
> insulating rod, also charged, and the the charged object is held over a
> steaming container of water, the charge is removed even though no
> conductivity was provided along the insulating rod.  In avoiding
> exposing the insulating rod to the water vapor, the rod itself remains
> charged thereby showing that it did not become a conductive path.

Cool!

>
> This stuff must bore the crap out of people not directly involved in it.

On the contrary, this is physics reachable by hobbyists which the
professionals haven't already researched to death.  It's exactly what all
the science amateurs are searching for.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 26 12:22:59 2002
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To: Michael Foster <michael.foster excite.com>
cc: vortex-L eskimo.com
Subject: Electrostatic Glass
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On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Michael Foster wrote:
> This is the short version of my electrostatic glass discoveries, do you
> want me to send you the long version?

Yeah!   Send it to vortex-L, and also I could post it on my Electrostatics
experiments page.

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William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
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On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, William Beaty wrote:
>   Journal of Electrostatics
>   http://henry.ee.rochester.edu:8080/journals/elstat/
>
>   Electrostatics Society of America
>   http://www.electrostatics.org/
>
>   Electrostatics book catalog
>   http://www.electrostatic.com/catalog.htm
>
>   ESA/IEJ joint conference, June 26 2002, Evanston IL
>   http://www.electrostatics.org/Announcements/esaprelim.htm

...but no online discussion groups for electrostatics people.

Maybe someone should start one on Yahoo Groups?


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 26 12:49:59 2002
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William Beaty wrote:

>If I eliminate all my intolerance, crude ambition, jealousy, etc.

You couldn't even if you wanted to. That's like trying to make a coin with 
only one side.


>On the contrary, there are more emotions besides envy, and more human 
>drives besides the desire for publicity.

Of course! "The Double Helix" describes these other emotions as well, and 
the reviewer I quoted (Robert Sinsheimer, p. 192) acknowledges it. He 
begins: "This is a saddening book, for it reminds us of that which we would 
rather forget -- that Homo sapiens brilliance need not be coupled with 
compassion, nor ambition with concern. . . . In reality this is two books. 
One is an account -- lucid, honest, suspenseful -- of the scientific events 
that lead to the deduction of [DNA structure]. . . . [I]t could well served 
as a model text for initiation of the young were it not for the second 
book. . . . The second book, however -- interwoven with the first -- is a 
description of the private world of J. D. Watson during these historic 
events. And this is unbelievably mean in spirit, filled with the distorted 
and cruel perceptions of childish insecurity . . ." [The part I quoted 
yesterday follows]

I take issue with this for several reasons. First, why should anyone want 
to forget that in homo sapiens brilliance is not always coupled with 
compassion? That is a fact of life. It is a neutral statement about our 
species, like saying that pattern baldness is coupled with heart disease, 
or predation with intelligence. It is truth, and scientists are supposed to 
embrace truth. Second, why should anyone wish to hide this truth from the 
young? Do we want young people to be naive? At worst this will leave them 
vulnerable to exploitation. At best, when they do grow up and see how 
things really are, they will think we were fools or liars. They will become 
cynical, which is unhealthy. If they are taught from childhood that some 
people are nasty but others are not, they will not be disillusioned. 
Finally, I do not think the private world of Watson is particularly sordid, 
unusual or insecure. It is normal. Sinsheimer seems to have low tolerance 
for human foibles, and little sense of humor.

Some people, it seems to me, are disappointed in the human race. They 
complain about their fellow citizens, as if a better class a people can be 
found in some other country. I have never understood this attitude. It is 
like complaining about the tensile strength of wood. It takes a certain 
number of wood beams to hold up a floor, and that's how many you must use. 
There is no point in complaining about it. A certain fraction of the human 
population is bound to be criminal, or antisocial, or prone to fight 
progress. We must find ways to deal with them.

Some people, such as Mitchell Jones, wish to go to another planet and start 
their own government. They have a romantic notion they can escape 
corruption, petty politics, unfairness, incompetent leaders and so on, if 
they can make self-sufficient technology and travel far enough to escape 
from "authority." Yet isolated, self-sufficient villages and towns have 
never been noted as bastions of freedom or good mental health. Any randomly 
selected group of a thousand people will have as many antisocial creeps as 
any other group. Fifty isolated people hiding ten light years from Earth 
will be in as much danger of tyranny as a million people in Atlanta are. 
Actually, I expect they will be in greater danger, because they cannot call 
the police if things get out of hand.


> > Other reviewers realized that Watson was telling the truth about how
> > science is done, and for that matter, how everything is done.
>
>You're convinced that most scientists are only in it for the prestige, to
>beat the other guy, etc.?

Well, not *only* for prestige, but there is no doubt every healthy, normal 
person anxiously desires these things. All primates are obsessed with 
hierarchy and competition. Simultaneously, most scientists are also 
motivated by curiosity, enjoyment, an altruistic urge to help humanity, and 
so on.


>Watson's book reveals a side of science which scientists wrongly try to
>hide, but it's just one side.

Watson's book reveals both sides, I think.

- Jed

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Subject: ICENES 2002 Conference announcement
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Here is an announcement of a conference sponsored by the UNM Office of the 
Vice Provost for Research; UNM Chemical & Nuclear Engineering; Sandia 
National Laboratories; Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory; Los Alamos 
National Laboratory; and others. Barbara Daniels, the coordinator, sent 
this to the list of ICCF-9 participants. I expect she will get in trouble! 
She probably does not realize what "ICCF" stands for, or who these people 
are. The top dogs at Sandia and Los Alamos would not want our crowd to attend.

This announcement included an attachment in Word format describing the 
conference in somewhat more detail. Contact me for a copy.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Greetings: I received a list of those who attended ICCF-9 recently. I 
thought you might be interested in the upcoming ICENES 2002 conference. The 
announcement is attached. The deadline for abstracts is now 15 July.

Barbara L. Daniels, ICENES Coordinator
UNM/ISD Meetings Services
901 University SE
Albuquerque, NM 87106
505-272-7214; fax 272-7203; daniels unm.edu

ICENES 2002

11th International Conference on Emerging Nuclear Energy Systems
29 September – 4 October 2002
Sheraton Old Town Hotel, Albuquerque, NM, USA

Please find attached a revised announcement on the conference. The deadline 
for abstracts has been extended to 15 July. If you prefer a poster slot, 
please tell us, otherwise we will presume that you want to give an oral 
presentation. A paper is required in either case.

http://www.unm.edu/~isd/icenes/icenes.htm

Sessions are planned on the following topics
(sessions may be organized on additional topics as needed):

* Accelerator Driven Systems

* Nuclear Waste

* Advanced Fission

* PW (Petawatt) Lasers

* Applications

* Space Nuclear Power

* Fusion Energy

* Space Propulsion

This message is being sent to everyone on the list including those from 
whom we have received abstracts. We would appreciate it if you could post 
the ICENES 2002 announcement and distribute the information throughout your 
organization. Thank you. Barbara

*********************************************************
Deborah G. Cole Barbara L. Daniels
ICENES Registrar ICENES Coordinator
901 University Blvd. 901 University Blvd.
Albuquerque, NM 87106 Albuquerque, NM 87106
mailto:dcole unm.edu mailto:daniels@unm.edu
Tel: 505-272-7215 Tel: 505-272-7214
Fax: 505-272-7203

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On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> William Beaty wrote:
>
> >If I eliminate all my intolerance, crude ambition, jealousy, etc.
>
> You couldn't even if you wanted to. That's like trying to make a coin with
> only one side.

True, I can't eliminate those tendencies, just as I can't eliminate my
human tendencies to murder, take others' toys, or to gleefully torture
small animals.  :)  I'm not talking about tendencies, I'm talking about
actual behavior.  Anyone can take time to recognize their own drives
towards bad behavior, then refuse to indulge in it.  Just as I don't
murder and rape, I also don't act like a total bigot, or take action on
all sorts of selfish urges, etc.

If Watson wants to step on colleagues' faces in pursuit of the Nobel, and
everyone else around him doesn't do such things, would you say that Watson
is in the right, while the ones who are appalled at such behavior are are
"Boy Scouts" or dysfunctional do-gooders?  But people also complain about
murder and robbery, so why aren't scientists allowed to complain about
fellow scientists who violate the community standards?  If I want to kill
the person who just took my parking space, but I don't act on that urge,
that doesn't make me a hypocrit if I object to murderers.


> I take issue with this for several reasons. First, why should anyone want
> to forget that in homo sapiens brilliance is not always coupled with
> compassion? That is a fact of life.

I don't think the reviewer is trying to forget it.  Instead he says that
he wants to use Watson and The Double Helix as a role model for how
science should be done...  but he can't, since he doesn't want his
students to become unethical scientists.


> Second, why should anyone wish to hide this truth from the
> young? Do we want young people to be naive? At worst this will leave them
> vulnerable to exploitation.

I agree.   I think that reviewer was talking about role models.  Watson
isn't a good model for the ethical goals scientists are supposed to
strive for.  Maybe he's a good role model for how NOT to behave?



> Finally, I do not think the private world of Watson is particularly sordid,
> unusual or insecure. It is normal. Sinsheimer seems to have low tolerance
> for human foibles, and little sense of humor.

I think an alternative is a better explanation: the ethical standards for
science are very different than for politics, business, etc.  What's
perfectly normal behavior in a business situation might destroy the career
of a scientist who did the same thing.  When you come right down to it,
that's the difference between science and invention.  An inventor who
doesn't keep all their IP secret or protected is a fool, and if
unprotected ideas are stolen by competitors, we blame the foolish victim
and not the theif.  On the other hand, scientists are supposed to keep
everything on display, and it could be easily stolen by anyone with a
slightly nefarious nature.  But scientists are also supposed to give huge
amounts of detailed attributions when they use others' ideas, and in
science-culture an idea-thief is a threat to the community who draws a
huge reaction from that community.

In science, competing with others in a race to a prize is sordid and slimy
behavior because if that behavior became common, scientists would have to
stop publishing in order to protect their work from idea-thieving
colleagues.  Taken to extremes, it would put us back into "alchemist"
times, where scientists behaved like businessmen in keeping competitors
from building upon or even from knowing about their discoveries.


> Some people, it seems to me, are disappointed in the human race. They
> complain about their fellow citizens, as if a better class a people can be
> found in some other country. I have never understood this attitude. It is
> like complaining about the tensile strength of wood.

Not quite, since human beings are affected by their culture, and unless a
person is a psychopath, a person takes note of global criticism.  If
Watson's behavior had been enough to get the entire scientific community
to completely turn against him, young scientists would think twice before
taking a similar path.  If Watson's behavior was only bad enough to draw
harsh criticism from numerous scientists, students could still note this,
and therefore learn what kind of behavior is considered unethical in that
situation.

I've heard about the Watson stuff before.  The harsh criticism isn't
coming from just one person.  I don't know if the number of scientists who
look down on Watson is a majority, but it's certainly significant.


> It takes a certain
> number of wood beams to hold up a floor, and that's how many you must use.
> There is no point in complaining about it. A certain fraction of the human
> population is bound to be criminal, or antisocial, or prone to fight
> progress. We must find ways to deal with them.


And one of these ways is to let lots of bystanders loudly object to the
offensive behavior.  Not only does this inform the perpetrator that
they've gone over the line, it also informs youngsters where that line is
(if those youngsters see the event.)  I wouldn't be suprised if Watson has
become a negative role model, with The Double Helix being required reading
in classes on ethical failures in science.


> Some people, such as Mitchell Jones, wish to go to another planet and start
> their own government. They have a romantic notion they can escape
> corruption, petty politics, unfairness, incompetent leaders and so on, if
> they can make self-sufficient technology and travel far enough to escape
> from "authority." Yet isolated, self-sufficient villages and towns have
> never been noted as bastions of freedom or good mental health.

True, and perhaps the hatred of "authority" or the attempt to escape
problems rather than to fix them is a major force which would doom such a
community.  We cannot "flee" if the problem is actually inside us.  At the
risk of getting too christian (or possibly Zen):  first we need to repair
our own worst personal problems, and only then can we accurately see flaws
in others or in society.  Psychological projection should be treated very
seriously.  Half of the dysfunctional people on Usenet are launching
crusades to solve problems which are clearly inside themselves rather than
inside the people they attack.


> >You're convinced that most scientists are only in it for the prestige, to
> >beat the other guy, etc.?
>
> Well, not *only* for prestige, but there is no doubt every healthy, normal
> person anxiously desires these things. All primates are obsessed with
> hierarchy and competition.

Yeah, but if they act on those obsessions without any control, society
falls apart.  And also, the amount of control needed in science, politics,
business, sports, etc., is different.  In business, a person who wants to
cooporate with everyone and who lacks a strong competitive drive is a
total failure.  In science, a person who treats colleages like opponents
and who has the competitive drive of world-class businessman is nearly a
criminal.  I other words, the ideal scientist would easily qualify for
Sainthood, and not because of the miracles they produced.

:)



(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jun 26 16:35:08 2002
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William Beaty wrote:

>If Watson wants to step on colleagues' faces in pursuit of the Nobel, and 
>everyone else around him doesn't do such things, would you say that Watson 
>is in the right . . .

I think he was unfairly accused. That is to say, he was accused of doing 
these things more often, and more aggressively than normal, and I see no 
evidence that he did. He is not particularly anti-social or unfair. His 
real sin was that he was not a hypocrite, and he told the world some 
unsavory details about how science works. He also described the happy parts.


>. . . while the ones who are appalled at such behavior are are
>"Boy Scouts" or dysfunctional do-gooders?

Yes, they are. They should try to see human nature as it is, not as some 
people would like it to be. You should not be appalled when you read 
Machiavelli or "Madam Bovery." An experienced adult understands that people 
act this way, they have faults and limitations which must be forgiven -- or 
guarded against!


>But people also complain about murder and robbery, so why aren't 
>scientists allowed to complain about fellow scientists who violate the 
>community standards?

They do not violate community standards when they steal ideas or compete 
ruthlessly! That's acceptable. The only standard Watson violated was the 
code of silence: the polite, unspoken agreement to con the public into 
thinking that scientists wear halos, and never think about fame or 
priority. (Which is very similar to the assertion that Victorian maidens 
never thought about sex -- sex and competition are closely related instincts.)


>I think an alternative is a better explanation: the ethical standards for
>science are very different than for politics, business, etc.  What's
>perfectly normal behavior in a business situation might destroy the career 
>of a scientist who did the same thing.

I spent twenty years working with businessmen every day, and much of the 
last 10 years working with scientists. In my experience, businessmen as a 
whole are more ethical, because the institutions of business are more 
realistic. Business institutions are set up to detect and punish unethical 
behavior. Of course, they often fail to do this! However, when Arthur 
Anderson was caught in a relatively minor, unethical act destroying 
evidence, thousands of people lost their jobs and value of the firm 
evaporated overnight. That put the fear of God into other accounting firms. 
A minor act like this at a university would hardly be noticed.

In science there is no penalty for lying, plagiarism or violating 
anti-trust.  Peer review, for example, is a flagrant violation of 
anti-trust ethics. It is an open invitation to corruption! Established 
institutions and experts are given the perfect opportunity to prevent 
competition, steal ideas, and control younger people. Imagine how things 
would be if every innovative, independent young programmer had to submit 
his product ideas to IBM before he was allowed to sell to the public. 
Obviously, IBM would appropriate all good ideas, and never allow real 
competition. Peter Hagelstein and others have often told me this is how the 
scientific establishment works. He listed several similar examples and 
"traditions" (most of them only a few decades old.) Anyone with experience 
in business would predict these rules will foster corruption and prevent 
progress. When we pretend that scientists are fair-minded angels devoid of 
ambition, we end up building institutions that give the worst scoundrels a 
perfect opportunity to exploit others. We should, instead, devise 
institutions that anticipate bad behavior, and try to prevent it.


>On the other hand, scientists are supposed to keep
>everything on display, and it could be easily stolen by anyone with a
>slightly nefarious nature.  But scientists are also supposed to give huge
>amounts of detailed attributions when they use others' ideas . . .

And in real life, they never do that. That is another naive, unrealistic 
expectation that should have been buried a hundred years ago. We should, 
instead, have some method of patenting or establishing priority secretly, 
by registering encoded papers via Internet.


>In science, competing with others in a race to a prize is sordid and slimy
>behavior because if that behavior became common, scientists would  have to 
>stop publishing in order to protect their work from idea-thieving
>colleagues.

This sordid and slimy conduct has been the rule ever since Galileo 
published secretly encoded poems to establish his priority discovering 
moons on other planets. The first HTSC formulas had deliberate mistakes to 
mislead early attempts at replication. Since people have always acted this 
way, and always will, instead of pretending it is wrong or trying to 
discourage it, we should institutionalize this behavior and establish 
orderly mechanisms to reduce abuse and try to ensure that credit & priority 
go where they are deserved. Don't fight human nature; accommodate it. 
Channel it.


>If Watson's behavior had been enough to get the entire 
>scientific  community to completely turn against him, young scientists 
>would think twice before taking a similar path.

Yes, they would all become hypocrites. It would not be the first time a 
scientist was punished and exiled for telling the truth. Watson is a 
prophet without honor.


>I've heard about the Watson stuff before.  The harsh criticism isn't
>coming from just one person.  I don't know if the number of scientists who 
>look down on Watson is a majority, but it's certainly significant.

Yes. This is because hypocrisy, denial, and the remnant of Victorian 
ignorance is still widespread among scientists, and most of them learn 
little about basic ethics. In other professions, people who act like 
scientists would end up disbarred, disgraced, or in jail.


 > In other words, the ideal scientist would easily qualify for
 > Sainthood, and not because of the miracles they produced.

That is the crux of the matter! Institutions that can only work well with 
ideal, saintly people cannot survive. They will be taken over by corrupt 
people. The early Savings & Loan institutions in England were mainly run by 
local minsters, under loose rules that relied mainly on trust. People 
thought this would work because they assumed that Men of God would act like 
saints. This was an open invitation to thieves. Hundreds of thieves quickly 
became ministers, and many ministers succumbed to temptations they had 
never before encountered. The institution corrupted them, because it was 
designed for Saints, not people.

- Jed

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On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Michael Foster wrote:

> I have observed the following: If a charged object is held by an
> insulating rod, also charged, and the the charged object is held over a
> steaming container of water, the charge is removed even though no
> conductivity was provided along the insulating rod.  In avoiding
> exposing the insulating rod to the water vapor, the rod itself remains
> charged thereby showing that it did not become a conductive path.

You have to make certain that the field from the charged object isn't
causing the boiling water to start emitting oppositely-charged droplets!

It is well known that ocean bubbles emit ions.  This happens whenever a
bubble pops, but only if there is an e-field in contact with that bubble.
The e-field pulls charges into the bubble film, and when the bubble pops,
the tiny droplets of salt water will carry charges away.  The droplets
evaporate, leaving behind salt crystals and ions.  The polarity of the
charges will be such that the ion-filled air acts like a conductor:  it
tries to discharge the e-field which created the ions.

If you hold a charged object over bubbling water (even over cold bubbling
water with an air pump making the bubbles,)  then theory says that a cloud
of tiny charged droplets will pour upwards and discharge your object.

To make sure that it's the boiling which does it, just use a tea kettle.
The boiling water will be in a zero-field environment, yet there still
will be a steam jet available.

Either that, or work only with superheated water in glass containers,
where there are no nucleation centers which allow bubbles to form.  Steam
will pour from the water surface, but there will be no bubbles and no
charged droplet-jets.   In this case does the charged object still become
discharged?  Let's try it and see!



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On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Jed Rothwell wrote:

> William Beaty wrote:
>
> >If Watson wants to step on colleagues' faces in pursuit of the Nobel, and
> >everyone else around him doesn't do such things, would you say that Watson
> >is in the right . . .
>
> I think he was unfairly accused. That is to say, he was accused of doing
> these things more often, and more aggressively than normal, and I see no
> evidence that he did.

I think that Watson controversy about that team down the hall with the
xray diffraction results was already going on before The Double Helix
was written.


> He is not particularly anti-social or unfair. His
> real sin was that he was not a hypocrite, and he told the world some
> unsavory details about how science works. He also described the happy parts.

"How science works" is the cause of our disagreement.  You seem to be
viewing Academia through the eyes of a rapicious businessman.  From that
viewpoint, all scientists are hopelessly naive.  Don't they KNOW that the
REAL point of life is to make a lot of money, and to screw your
competitors before they screw you first?

:)

But if science were to become business, then free communication would end,
and there would be no difference between the academic science community
and a community of inventors.  Once free communication has ended, we're
back to the scientific stone age, as before 1800 when chemists were still
like inventors.   Are scientists "stupid" because they don't re-vamp
science to make it into business?   No, they're smart to want to preserve
free communication.   The system is not perfect, but it does work, it does
trundle along slowly.


> >. . . while the ones who are appalled at such behavior are are
> >"Boy Scouts" or dysfunctional do-gooders?
>
> Yes, they are. They should try to see human nature as it is, not as some
> people would like it to be.

"Human nature" may stay constant, but "behavior standards" vary
depending on the community you're in.    If you find yourself behind enemy
lines in 1967 Cambodia, then you operate by a different set of behavior
standards than when you're visiting your grandmother in a nursing home.
(Or would you say that anyone who visits a nursing home without carrying
an automatic weapon and a 18" jungle fighters' knife is hopelessly naive?)

:)

What of people who give to charity?  Disgusting do-gooders!  To say
nothing of charity WORKERS, who are so stupid that they give their time
away for free rather than charging $200/hr consulting fees like a rational
person would!  :)

The situation in everyday business is not the same as while doing charity
work, so you have to turn off your "ruthless businessman" persona.


> You should not be appalled when you read
> Machiavelli or "Madam Bovery." An experienced adult understands that people
> act this way,

In my experience "people" don't act this way.   Many are saints, many are
sinners, but "saint" isn't a dysfunctional sinner any more than "sinner"
is a dysfunctional saint.   What is totally dysfunctional in the business
world is just everyday normal behavior in academia.   And what is everyday
normal behavior in business is blatent ethical violations when done in
academia.


> >But people also complain about murder and robbery, so why aren't
> >scientists allowed to complain about fellow scientists who violate the
> >community standards?
>
> They do not violate community standards when they steal ideas or compete
> ruthlessly! That's acceptable.

LOL!  You make my point for me.  Ruthless competition is EXPECTED in
business.  If a businessman takes it home with him and never turns off his
"rapacious businessman", his family will certainly suffer for it.


> The only standard Watson violated was the
> code of silence: the polite, unspoken agreement to con the public into
> thinking that scientists wear halos, and never think about fame or
> priority. (Which is very similar to the assertion that Victorian maidens
> never thought about sex -- sex and competition are closely related instincts.)

Now this is closer to reality.   Science is screwy because scientists have
problems with capital-D-Denial.   Rather than fixing ethical problems in
the scientific community, they tend to make them "go away" by chosing
intentional blindness.  That way lies insanity.


> >I think an alternative is a better explanation: the ethical standards for
> >science are very different than for politics, business, etc.  What's
> >perfectly normal behavior in a business situation might destroy the career
> >of a scientist who did the same thing.
>
> I spent twenty years working with businessmen every day, and much of the
> last 10 years working with scientists. In my experience, businessmen as a
> whole are more ethical, because the institutions of business are more
> realistic. Business institutions are set up to detect and punish unethical
> behavior. Of course, they often fail to do this! However, when Arthur
> Anderson was caught in a relatively minor, unethical act destroying
> evidence, thousands of people lost their jobs and value of the firm
> evaporated overnight. That put the fear of God into other accounting firms.
> A minor act like this at a university would hardly be noticed.

Yes, and that's a serious problem.  For all we know, the majority of the
data on which mainstream science is based was completely faked by
unethical scientists chasing power and prestige.  Nobody looks for such
things.  And if they stumble across them accidentally, they back away
quickly while talking themselves into "knowing" that it never occurred.
In articles about known ethical violations, the early witnesses describe
doing this.  They only came forward once the cover was torn off the
violations by others.


> In science there is no penalty for lying, plagiarism or violating
> anti-trust.

Exactly.  It's run like the Catholic church with their child rapists:  an
extremely dishonest scientist is ignored because everyone "knows" that
dishonest scientists don't exist. Only the most flagrant violators force
the community to react.  But things are changing.  Changing far too
slowly, but they are changing.

Here's an article you might enjoy.  It strikes me as an extremely accurate
portrayal of everyday science:

  Martin:  Scientific fraud and the power structure of sci.
  http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/pubs/92prom.html


> Peer review, for example, is a flagrant violation of
> anti-trust ethics. It is an open invitation to corruption! Established
> institutions and experts are given the perfect opportunity to prevent
> competition, steal ideas, and control younger people. Imagine how things
> would be if every innovative, independent young programmer had to submit
> his product ideas to IBM before he was allowed to sell to the public.

I'm liking the analogy with child-molesters in the Church.   The
organization might have extremly high ethical standards, but they maintain
them by covering up violations, even to the point of courting "hysterical
blindness" where individuals lose their ability to even SEE direct simple
evidence of violations.   The scientific community suffers from several
kinds of group-insanity.  It's amazing that it's done as well as it has.
I would have predicted that new ideas would get suppressed and STAY
suppressed.   Fortunately science can advance funeral by funeral even when
other paths to advancement are totally blocked by unethical moves by
researchers.


> >On the other hand, scientists are supposed to keep
> >everything on display, and it could be easily stolen by anyone with a
> >slightly nefarious nature.  But scientists are also supposed to give huge
> >amounts of detailed attributions when they use others' ideas . . .
>
> And in real life, they never do that.

Wrong.  Just because the system is full of parasites doesn't mean that NO
members of the system follow the community standards.  And if every single
catholic priest was a child rapist, we'd have a different situation than
the one where the church is merely covering up a "normal" population
of child rapists.


> That is another naive, unrealistic
> expectation that should have been buried a hundred years ago. We should,
> instead, have some method of patenting or establishing priority secretly,
> by registering encoded papers via Internet.

Or make services like "X archive" more official, where the dating evidence
would stand up in court.  And give biologists and chemists and all other
fields their own version.



> >In science, competing with others in a race to a prize is sordid and slimy
> >behavior because if that behavior became common, scientists would  have to
> >stop publishing in order to protect their work from idea-thieving
> >colleagues.
>
> This sordid and slimy conduct has been the rule ever since Galileo
> published secretly encoded poems to establish his priority discovering
> moons on other planets.

Wrong.  Not the rule, but the wrongly-tolerated, unpunished, and all too
common EXCEPTION. The rules are pretty clear, otherwise nobody could tell
the difference between "blatent ethical violation" versus "high-integrity
behavior."


> The first HTSC formulas had deliberate mistakes to
> mislead early attempts at replication.

Probably.  But don't you notice that they then published the paper?  For a
businessman, publishing such a paper at all was foolish.  The ways of
modern science are totally foolish if all scientists are "supposed" to be
ruthlessly competing for money and power while screwing over their
opponents before they get screwed in return.  If scientists are "supposed"
to behave like the worst of dishonest car salesmen, then the EXPECTED
behavior of scientists would qualify as disgusting naievete.  Out on the
selling floor, any car salesman who behaved like a scientist would get
torn to shreds by the other salesmen.


> Since people have always acted this
> way, and always will, instead of pretending it is wrong or trying to
> discourage it, we should institutionalize this behavior and establish
> orderly mechanisms to reduce abuse and try to ensure that credit & priority
> go where they are deserved. Don't fight human nature; accommodate it.
> Channel it.

Let me exaggerate to make a point:  we should not pretend that rape and
murder is "wrong!"  After all, all people everywhere have always behaved
that way!  :)  As one of the Python albums says, "Who among us can
honestly deny that they've never set fire to a great public building?!"

:)



> >If Watson's behavior had been enough to get the entire
> >scientific  community to completely turn against him, young scientists
> >would think twice before taking a similar path.
>
> Yes, they would all become hypocrites. It would not be the first time a
> scientist was punished and exiled for telling the truth. Watson is a
> prophet without honor.

Let me exaggerate again:  if a rapist writes a book revealing all the
details of his series of crimes, perhaps he should not be suprised if the
revelations in the book are used by the police during an investigation.
The book might even incite the government to create new laws.


> >I've heard about the Watson stuff before.  The harsh criticism isn't
> >coming from just one person.  I don't know if the number of scientists who
> >look down on Watson is a majority, but it's certainly significant.
>
> Yes. This is because hypocrisy, denial, and the remnant of Victorian
> ignorance is still widespread among scientists, and most of them learn
> little about basic ethics. In other professions, people who act like
> scientists would end up disbarred, disgraced, or in jail.

We agree, except that where you say "act like scientists" I would say "act
like unethical scientists." If you insist that ALL scientists behave like
the WORST of scientists, I'd have to strongly disagree.  Science is like a
utopian community where the members are supposed to be saints.  Such a
community ends up rotten at its core...  but that doesn't mean that many
of the members DO genuinely behave like saints.  The high incidence of
"saints" might be all that saves science from total collapse.



>  > In other words, the ideal scientist would easily qualify for
>  > Sainthood, and not because of the miracles they produced.
>
> That is the crux of the matter! Institutions that can only work well with
> ideal, saintly people cannot survive.

Science has survived for centuries, yet it works best when all the members
behave like saints.   Science has not been taken over by corrupt people,
instead science just harbors a vast amount of covered-up corruption.
(Again that analogy:  the catholic church hasn't been taken over by
child-rapists, instead it just harbors a large covered-up population of
child rapists.)



Ah, another analogy!  In the Monty Python "Holy Grail" movie, Sir Galahad
think's he's single-handedly storming an enemy castle.  The people in the
castle think they're at a wedding.

Would you say that anyone who thinks that "weddings" can exist is stupidly
naive?  All weddings everywhere are STUPID, after all, any guy with a huge
broadsword can come in at any time and lop the groom's head off!

:)

That part of the movie is a good illustration of ethical standards being
different in different situations.  Behaving like a rapicious businessman
is appropriate in business situations, but in academia it's a criminal
act, and the fact that science secretly tolerates a large population of
such "criminals" doesn't alter the academic community's definitions of
good vs. bad behavior.




(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 27 10:48:57 2002
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Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Here's the full text article and photos in case anyone's interested:
> 
> http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2002/Jun/22/ln/ln22a.html
> 

I read the article and looked at the picture of the docks.  They sure look like all plastic construction.  I also notice that the main walkway is a red color, indicating they used no carbon black for conductivity.

It would be interesting to find out if the docks are charged before anyone walks on them or if they are charged by contact.  It would also be useful to know if they are high density polyethylene (HDPE) or PVC, the most likely candidates for this sort of construction.  I have succeeded in frictionally charging PVC pipes under conditions of as high as 98% relative humidity, creating voltages as high as 250 kV.  See:

http://www.pcpages.com/chv1

I have half a mind to hop a plane to Honolulu with one of my electrostatic voltmeters to find out if it's friction or evaporation.  Of course, given the fact that I was practically strip searched six times on my last plane trip, I doubt they would let such a suspicious looking gadget on the plane.

M.

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Michael Foster wrote:

>This stuff must bore the crap out of people not directly involved in it.

Actually, this is just the thing I have been looking for an answer to, so I
have a couple of questions.

 >Even though humid air is only slightly more conductive than dry air it can
carry a >much larger charge than dry air.  In other words, it can carry more
Coulombs per >cubic meter.  Therefore, it can remove charges from surfaces
by convection, if the >air is moving.

This brings up a very interesting issue, one that I have had trouble
locating a good explanation for. That is, what is the precise mechanism by
which humidity discharges electrostatic charges - is it due to increased
mobility or conduction of ions in the air, which can then more rapidly
neutralize charges, or is it due to the ionic charge of water vapour itself
neutralizing charges? I think you are suggesting the former.

> I have observed the following: If a charged object is held by an
insulating rod, also >charged, and the the charged object is held over a
steaming container of water, the >charge is removed even though no
conductivity was provided along the insulating >rod.  In avoiding exposing
the insulating rod to the water vapor, the rod itself >remains charged
thereby showing that it did not become a conductive path.

I have observed some very peculiar migration of charges on insulators (under
dry winter conditions). During one experiment, I found that a charged metal
plate could transfer its charge to an electroscope even if it was completely
immersed in linseed oil, and if the only conduction path to the electroscope
was the oil. The charge could migrate 6 inches or more through the oil to
the electroscope, but the charging took many seconds when the distance was
larger. I was able to get the same migration along a paraffin candle.
Gustave Le Bon discussed this effect in his book "The Evolution of Forces".
I believe you are right in suggesting that the water vapour is the fastest
means of discharge, but given a few minutes, even under dry conditions, I
suspect the charge could migrate and equalize itself over the rod, giving
the appearance of at least partial dissipation. Since I understood that
electrostatic charges on insulators were supposed to be "trapped" in
position, do you have any idea why this experiment gives the appearance of
being a conduction process?

Doug



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William Beaty wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Michael Foster wrote:
> 
> > I have observed the following: If a charged object is held by an
> > insulating rod, also charged, and the the charged object is held over
> a
> > steaming container of water, the charge is removed even though no
> > conductivity was provided along the insulating rod.  In avoiding
> > exposing the insulating rod to the water vapor, the rod itself
> remains
> > charged thereby showing that it did not become a conductive path.
> 
> You have to make certain that the field from the charged object isn't
> causing the boiling water to start emitting oppositely-charged droplets!

I'm sorry, I should have been more specific.  The water wasn't boiling, just hot, a cup of coffee, for example.  The discharging works quite well even if you just breathe on the charged object.  The main thing is the convection of humid air.  I have a lot of "professional" electrostatic discharge equipment, carbon fiber brushes, ionizing air blowers, etc., but if you really want to drop the voltage of a charged object down to zero, this is the way.

This is a very easy experiment to duplicate why don't you try it?

M.

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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Watson, cooperators vs. competitors
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William Beaty wrote:

>I think that Watson controversy about that team down the hall with the
>xray diffraction results was already going on before The Double Helix
>was written.

And I think that controversy was a tempest in a teapot compared to most 
misconduct in science. Watson's behavior was not reprehensible. A little 
sophomoric, sometimes in bad taste, but nothing to be concerned about.


>"How science works" is the cause of our disagreement.  You seem to be 
>viewing Academia through the eyes of a rapicious businessman.

No, just an ordinary middle aged person who knows the ways of the world. 
Actually, as I said, scientists in general seem to have lower standards 
than businessmen. Science attracts low-lifes because the institution is not 
designed to exclude them, or to detect and punish them. The designers 
mistakenly believed that scientists are unusually good folks, extra 
responsible types, who do not require oversight or punishments.


> From that viewpoint, all scientists are hopelessly naive.
>Don't they KNOW that the REAL point of life is to make a lot of money, and 
>to screw your competitors before they screw you first?

Scientists only pretend to be naive. Actually, they are more prone to act 
this way than businessmen, according to Hagelstein and others. Peer review 
is not the only problem. The funding, promotion, public relations, and many 
other aspects of the institution abet corruption.


>But if science were to become business, then free communication would end 
>. . .

Actually, businessmen communicate remarkably well, at trade shows and in 
professional societies and regulatory institutions. But in any case, I am 
not proposing that science should ape the institutions of business 
precisely, but only that reforms are needed, and valuable lessons can be 
learned from long-standing business traditions.


>What of people who give to charity?  Disgusting do-gooders!

As a rule, I distrust altruists. Many "do-gooders" I have encountered are 
control-freaks and awful people. They mainly want to exploit poor people to 
advance their own warped agenda. The descriptions of Mother Teresa and many 
of the things she said seemed horrible to me, especially her hard-core 
opposition to sex education, contraception, population control and women's 
rights.


>Here's an article you might enjoy.  It strikes me as an extremely accurate
>portrayal of everyday science:
>
>   Martin:  Scientific fraud and the power structure of sci.
>   http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/pubs/92prom.html

An excellent article! But I think the author fails to appreciate how 
important ethics are in business, and how well enforced they usually are. 
For example, he writes:

". . . The same applies to annual reports, media stories and other material 
prepared for general distribution. 'Breakthroughs' abound. Research 
relevant to a 'cure for cancer' covers the gamut of biological science. . . 
. Honesty in research grants, annual reports and media reports stands about 
as much chance as honesty in advertising, because this sort of 
(mis)representation of science is, indeed, a form of advertising."

He has this backwards. Yes, honesty in research grants is rare, and yes, 
these grants are form of advertising. But they are unregulated advertising. 
Real commercial business advertising is, in fact, quite honest, and not 
because businessmen are especially upstanding members of the community. It 
is honest by force of law! A businessman who publishes false or misleading 
adverting can be arrested, or face civil suits, and he will surely suffer a 
loss of business and reputation. Grants and annual reports should be held 
to the same high standards that commercial advertisements must meet, with a 
similar set of penalties.

Science is big business. In 1900, scientists earned a pittance, and the 
jobs attracted only fanatically devoted people. Today professors at MIT, 
Cornell or the DoE earn far more than the average person, and they often 
have the opportunity to found new companies and other commercial ventures. 
It is time for science to grow up. Penalties, regulations, codified 
competition (similar to patents), enforced fair competition (anti-trust), 
and the harsh rule of law should be welcomed by honest researchers. They 
are not a sign that an institution is in decline or that criminality has 
become rampant. Rather, they are sign that the institution has become 
important to society, well funded, and it is run by strong and realistic 
people.

Recently the government stepped in and told the Ivy League universities to 
stop secret tuition price fixing and coordinated acceptance (allocating 
customers between them). That's good. Universities are a business like any 
other, and they must be treated as such, without special privileges. All 
academic institutions should be held to the same standards we demand of 
hospitals, the Grand Ole Opry, the Atlanta Farmer's Market or your local 
pool hall. Of course these institutions are different, and some variation 
in rules and style of governance is called for, but no special dispensation 
or privileges.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 27 13:26:36 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
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Hi Jed.

>No, just an ordinary middle aged person who knows the ways of the world.
>Actually, as I said, scientists in general seem to have lower standards
>than businessmen. Science attracts low-lifes because the institution is not
>designed to exclude them, or to detect and punish them. The designers
>mistakenly believed that scientists are unusually good folks, extra
>responsible types, who do not require oversight or punishments.

The stock market has lost 5.5 trillion in the last 2 years, yesterday
WorldCom just melted down under the admission of about 4 billion dollars
of fraud, and Jed claims that the average businessman is more ethical
than the average scientist. I don't know Jed, I worked Wall St for about
6 years, and I can tell you from experience that the
average businessman down there was about as ethical as the Boston Diocese.
Corruption and money go hand in hand, and your average businessman
makes a heck of a lot more money than your average scientist. So you
do the math. Here's a humorous link for those whose retirement plans
were just washed away

http://www.usatoday.com/money/general/2002/06/26/ceo-golf-cheating.htm

That said, I've seen my share of backstabbing in academia, but to compare
this to billions in fraud is quite a leap. You seem to share the same
problem as the FBI whom, in the face of credible terrorist threats
are busy investigating... cable theft???

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?Site=TO&Date=20020627&Categ
ory=NEWS03&ArtNo=106270073&Ref=AR

Whew, what a relief, I can sleep safely now knowing that some dinky ISP's
bandwidth is being paid for!!!

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 27 13:34:26 2002
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:32:56 EDT
Subject: Forbes Gearing Up for NASA article
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Hi All - 

Marc Millis of NASA's Breakthrough Propulsion Physics program reports that 
Forbes is preparing an article about the space agency's more unusual 
technology investments.

Given the magazine's record, I have little faith that Forbes will be 
open-minded and fair.

Erik

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Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:00:13 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: RE: Watson, cooperators vs. competitors
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>The stock market has lost 5.5 trillion in the last 2 years . . .

In my opinion that was mainly caused by irrational exuberance or 
tulipmania, rather than unethical behavior on the part of businessmen.


>. . . yesterday WorldCom just melted down under the admission of about 4 
>billion dollars of fraud . . .

Right! It melted down, just as Arthur Anderson did. My point is that 
similar malfeasance in science would not cause a meltdown. No one would be 
punished or dismissed. For example, several billion dollars have been spent 
on the inertial confinement (laser fusion) facility in California, and some 
years ago it was given a medal and citation from Congress for excellence 
and on-time performance. A few weeks later memos from the project were 
leaked and Congress found out the project was actually in dire trouble, 
years behind schedule, and billions of dollars had been wasted, but nothing 
happened.


>. . . and Jed claims that the average businessman is more ethical
>than the average scientist. I don't know Jed, I worked Wall St for about
>6 years, and I can tell you from experience that the
>average businessman down there was about as ethical as the Boston Diocese.

Well, "business" is not one community. Wall Street is probably different 
from the community of people I know who make boring technical software. No 
doubt some business institutions attract unethical people more than others. 
You are probably right about Wall Street. I have little experience with the 
stock market, so I cannot judge. (I must say though, all of my experiences 
have been negative, and I did win a settlement in a class-action lawsuit. 
That indicates an ethics problem!)

But let us get a sense of perspective here. What is at stake? What are the 
consequences of unethical acts by businessmen compared to scientists? When 
businessmen at WorldCom or Enron lie and cheat, billions of dollars are 
lost, people's lives are ruined, their retirement nest-egg is lost. That's 
awful. Naturally, I have deep sympathy for the victims. I hope the 
perpetrators are locked up. They may well be, despite their money!

As bad as this outcome is, it does not compare to what happens when 
important scientists abuse their power and act unethically. Think for a 
moment what has happened to cold fusion, or what may happen with global 
warming, population growth, the abuse and overuse of antibiotics, or the 
fact that medical researchers have done so little to combat malaria. The 
stakes and the risks are infinitely more critical than a trillion dollars 
vaporized in the stock market. The suppression of cold fusion has 
contributed to a holocaust. Something like 15 *million* people, mostly 
children, have died in the last ten years mainly for lack of clean energy. 
Millions of acres of forest have been destroyed by people desperately 
harvesting firewood. This is the direct result of the willful suppression 
of cold fusion by a handful of leading scientists, mainly in plasma fusion. 
If they have any skill they must realize that cold fusion is real and 
potentially important.

In the long view of history, scientists, mathematicians & engineers 
contribute more to our civilization than businessmen do. We remember 
Galileo and Newcomen. No one knows the names of the bankers who paid for 
the first telescopes and steam engines. Long after the name Bill Gates has 
been lost to history, Grace Hopper and Niclaus Wirth will be remembered. 
Gate's contribution is a mere footnote to their accomplishments. Research 
is the most vital human activity, and it has produced more good & more 
permanent happiness than any other.

Since scientists are given the opportunity to make such great 
contributions, they must accept correspondingly great responsibility. Their 
misbehavior is more important than a businessman's. They are like airline 
pilots compared to drivers. When an irresponsible jerk on the road causes a 
serious accident, that's bad, but when a pilot causes an accident, it is 
much worse. The misconduct of scientists will have ramifications far beyond 
evanescent stock market crashes. The work of scientists may ultimately 
lead, within a few hundred years, to the colonization of other planets: the 
creation of whole new nations, new worlds, billions of lives, entire 
ecosystems on terraformed planets. *That* is what is ultimately at stake! 
The birthright and future of humanity, perhaps even our survival as a 
species. It is no exaggeration.

If enough damage is done, it is conceivable that the whole scientific 
enterprise may grind to a halt. Bacon warned this may happen, because 
science is a delicate and unpopular business, at odds with our instincts. 
Fleischmann said "people don't want progress, they won't have it, and it 
will just die." If this comes to pass, it will because science is sabotaged 
from within. The only people capable of destroying it, or holding it back 
for decades, are corrupt scientists. No one else will be to blame. Society 
gives science all the support it needs, and perhaps too much money and 
power. If it collapses (perhaps in slow motion over decades), it will be 
because a small number of elite leading scientists dragged it down, the way 
the elite destroyed Europe in 1914. Centuries later, if anyone is left to 
read this history, their reasons will seem senseless, and the consequences 
of their acts utterly out of proportion to their concerns.

Of course scientists are not the only ones at fault for these dreadful 
situations with cold fusion or antibiotics, but they are the main players. 
They are the main decision makers. For that matter, businessmen were not 
the only people at fault in the Enron scandal. Politicians, regulators and 
the academics who designed the California electric power market shared the 
blame.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jun 27 21:54:20 2002
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Doug Marett wrote:

> This brings up a very interesting issue, one that I have had trouble
> locating a good explanation for. That is, what is the precise mechanism
> by
> which humidity discharges electrostatic charges - is it due to increased
> mobility or conduction of ions in the air, which can then more rapidly
> neutralize charges, or is it due to the ionic charge of water vapour
> itself
> neutralizing charges? I think you are suggesting the former.

Actually, I've often thought it might be both.

> I have observed some very peculiar migration of charges on insulators
> (under
> dry winter conditions). During one experiment, I found that a charged
> metal
> plate could transfer its charge to an electroscope even if it was
> completely
> immersed in linseed oil, and if the only conduction path to the
> electroscope
> was the oil. The charge could migrate 6 inches or more through the oil to
> the electroscope, but the charging took many seconds when the distance
> was
> larger. I was able to get the same migration along a paraffin candle.
> Gustave Le Bon discussed this effect in his book "The Evolution of
> Forces".
> I believe you are right in suggesting that the water vapour is the
> fastest
> means of discharge, but given a few minutes, even under dry conditions, I
> suspect the charge could migrate and equalize itself over the rod, giving
> the appearance of at least partial dissipation. Since I understood that
> electrostatic charges on insulators were supposed to be
> "trapped" in
> position, do you have any idea why this experiment gives the appearance
> of
> being a conduction process?

You have brought up my favorite electrostatic subject and one about which I have a number of questions myself.  In the case of your linseed oil experiment, the apparent charge migration might be a combination of physical charge convection aided by the fact that linseed oil is composed of polar molecules.  It would be interesting to do this same test with an oil made of non-polar molecules such as mineral oil.  You can test whether a fluid is made of polar or non-polar molecules simply by placing it in a microwave oven.  The polar molecules will heat up and the non-polar won't.

The charge migration along the paraffin (non-polar) candle might be inherent in the substance itself or, it might be traveling along the wick, which at these voltages is a conductor.  Or it might be moisture adsorbed onto the surface conducting the charge.

In both these case, I suggest that these charge migrations could be the result of simple high resistance conduction.  This might be the case and it might not.  I've made a number of experiments that show charge transfer across dielectric substances that seem to indicate something other than a high resistance conductor.

For example, you can take an easily frictionally charged film such as PET, lay it on a conductive surface and rub part of it with your hand until it adheres to the conductor.  It is easy to see which part is charged by the dimples and tents viewable by reflection. The uncharged part will remain smooth.  Then, use a discharge device to remove any charge residing on the top surface.  This will have virtually no effect on the Coulomb force adhering the film to the conductor.  Such a charge can last for days or even weeks.  If the charge was somehow able to migrate from the top to the bottom surface, why, as you will observe, does it not migrate laterally?  Also, if the charge were able to travel by simple conduction why does is last so long.  

One might be tempted to think this is a type of capacitor and therefore if you placed a conductive plate on the top surface and shorted it out to the bottom surface the charge would be neutralized, but no.  Frankly, I think this is something of a mystery.  Or maybe this is a well known phenomenon and I've just not run across the explanation yet.  Comments, anyone?

On the other hand, the same piece of film can be charged frictionally or otherwise on one surface, and the charge removed almost completely from the opposite surface.  I have heard some rather lame explanations as to how this is Maxwell's charge displacement current (it's really Faraday's) but of course displacement current can't explain a continuous DC tranfer of charges through a dielectric substance.

This is one little simple experiment concerning this phenomenon.  I have quite a few others, if anyone is interested.

Where do I find out more about Gustave Le Bon?

M.

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Doug Marett wrote:

> This brings up a very interesting issue, one that I have had trouble
> locating a good explanation for. That is, what is the precise mechanism
> by
> which humidity discharges electrostatic charges - is it due to increased
> mobility or conduction of ions in the air, which can then more rapidly
> neutralize charges, or is it due to the ionic charge of water vapour
> itself
> neutralizing charges? I think you are suggesting the former.

Actually, I've often thought it might be both.

> I have observed some very peculiar migration of charges on insulators
> (under
> dry winter conditions). During one experiment, I found that a charged
> metal
> plate could transfer its charge to an electroscope even if it was
> completely
> immersed in linseed oil, and if the only conduction path to the
> electroscope
> was the oil. The charge could migrate 6 inches or more through the oil to
> the electroscope, but the charging took many seconds when the distance
> was
> larger. I was able to get the same migration along a paraffin candle.
> Gustave Le Bon discussed this effect in his book "The Evolution of
> Forces".
> I believe you are right in suggesting that the water vapour is the
> fastest
> means of discharge, but given a few minutes, even under dry conditions, I
> suspect the charge could migrate and equalize itself over the rod, giving
> the appearance of at least partial dissipation. Since I understood that
> electrostatic charges on insulators were supposed to be
> "trapped" in
> position, do you have any idea why this experiment gives the appearance
> of
> being a conduction process?

You have brought up my favorite electrostatic subject and one about which I have a number of questions myself.  In the case of your linseed oil experiment, the apparent charge migration might be a combination of physical charge convection aided by the fact that linseed oil is composed of polar molecules.  It would be interesting to do this same test with an oil made of non-polar molecules such as mineral oil.  You can test whether a fluid is made of polar or non-polar molecules simply by placing it in a microwave oven.  The polar molecules will heat up and the non-polar won't.

The charge migration along the paraffin (non-polar) candle might be inherent in the substance itself or, it might be traveling along the wick, which at these voltages is a conductor.  Or it might be moisture adsorbed onto the surface conducting the charge.

In both these case, I suggest that these charge migrations could be the result of simple high resistance conduction.  This might be the case and it might not.  I've made a number of experiments that show charge transfer across dielectric substances that seem to indicate something other than a high resistance conductor.

For example, you can take an easily frictionally charged film such as PET, lay it on a conductive surface and rub part of it with your hand until it adheres to the conductor.  It is easy to see which part is charged by the dimples and tents viewable by reflection. The uncharged part will remain smooth.  Then, use a discharge device to remove any charge residing on the top surface.  This will have virtually no effect on the Coulomb force adhering the film to the conductor.  Such a charge can last for days or even weeks.  If the charge was somehow able to migrate from the top to the bottom surface, why, as you will observe, does it not migrate laterally?  Also, if the charge were able to travel by simple conduction why does is last so long.  

One might be tempted to think this is a type of capacitor and therefore if you placed a conductive plate on the top surface and shorted it out to the bottom surface the charge would be neutralized, but no.  Frankly, I think this is something of a mystery.  Or maybe this is a well known phenomenon and I've just not run across the explanation yet.  Comments, anyone?

On the other hand, the same piece of film can be charged frictionally or otherwise on one surface, and the charge removed almost completely from the opposite surface.  I have heard some rather lame explanations as to how this is Maxwell's charge displacement current (it's really Faraday's) but of course displacement current can't explain a continuous DC tranfer of charges through a dielectric substance.

This is one little simple experiment concerning this phenomenon.  I have quite a few others, if anyone is interested.

Where do I find out more about Gustave Le Bon?

M.

------------------------------------------------
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 28 07:23:56 2002
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Michael Foster wrote:

>This is one little simple experiment concerning this phenomenon.  I have 
>quite a few others, if anyone is interested.

I am interested! This is great stuff.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 28 07:47:56 2002
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New from Zap, a personal hoverboard:

>http://www.techtv.com/freshgear/products/story/0,23008,3379499,00.html<






From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 28 07:48:39 2002
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I wrote:

>Barbara Daniels, the coordinator, sent this to the list of ICCF-9 
>participants. I expect she will get in trouble! She probably does not 
>realize what "ICCF" stands for . . .

That's a joke, by the way. Someone contacted me to say Daniels will not get 
into trouble. I did not seriously think she would. I am sure CF scientists 
would be welcome at this conference, or any other physics conference. On 
the other hand, I doubt they would be allowed to give a paper! I find that 
most scientists from "outside" the field are cordial and express sincere 
interest.

McKubre has been invited to speak to groups outside the usual channels. For 
example, Martin Perl a Nobel laureate physicist at Stanford invited him to 
give a talk, and Carlo Rubbia is reportedly very interested in and 
supportive of CF. I have no contact with the scientific establishment, so 
it is difficult for me to judge, but I get the impression that the 
opposition to CF consists of two groups: a small, hard-core group of 
influential people in government, the leading journals, the APS and few 
other places, and a somewhat larger, nebulous gang of flakes on 
sci.physics.fusion who should get a life. The latter have no influence. The 
majority of scientists seem to have no knowledge of CF and no firm opinion 
about it. It is a shame we cannot reach them with the facts, but they do 
not read Internet web sites often, and we are not allowed to publish in 
Nature and other leading journals. The structure of the modern scientific 
establishment makes it easy to choke off information. Brian Martin 
discusses this in some of the other essays on his web site, which I highly 
recommend:

http://www.uow.edu.au/arts/sts/bmartin/

- Jed

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Michael Foster wrote:

> You have brought up my favorite electrostatic subject and one about which
I have a >number of questions myself.  In the case of your linseed oil
experiment, the apparent >charge migration might be a combination of
physical charge convection aided by the >fact that linseed oil is composed
of polar molecules.  It would be interesting to do >this same test with an
oil made of non-polar molecules such as mineral oil.  You can >test whether
a fluid is made of polar or non-polar molecules simply by placing it in a
>microwave oven.  The polar molecules will heat up and the non-polar won't.

That sounds like a good control, and fairly easy to try.

> The charge migration along the paraffin (non-polar) candle might be
inherent in the >substance itself or, it might be traveling along the wick,
which at these voltages is a >conductor.  Or it might be moisture adsorbed
onto the surface conducting the >charge.

> In both these case, I suggest that these charge migrations could be the
result of >simple high resistance conduction.  This might be the case and it
might not.  I've >made a number of experiments that show charge transfer
across dielectric >substances that seem to indicate something other than a
high resistance conductor.

    Conduction would seem to be the "classical" explanation in this case,
and I suppose that positive charges would give the appearance of flow only
because perhaps negative charges from previously neutral sites along the
insulator are moving to redistribute the charge. It is the illusion of flow
of course that makes one wonder...

> For example, you can take an easily frictionally charged film such as PET,
lay it on >a conductive surface and rub part of it with your hand until it
adheres to the >conductor.  It is easy to see which part is charged by the
dimples and tents viewable >by reflection. The uncharged part will remain
smooth.  Then, use a discharge device >to remove any charge residing on the
top surface.  This will have virtually no effect >on the Coulomb force
adhering the film to the conductor.  Such a charge can last >for days or
even weeks.  If the charge was somehow able to migrate from the top to >the
bottom surface, why, as you will observe, does it not migrate laterally?
Also, if >the charge were able to travel by simple conduction why does is
last so long.

That is a really good example. I will have to try this. Your example just
reminded me of the electrophorus, and how it can store charges for months or
years if it is properly shielded by metal.  I think they use the same method
to store electrets. This contradicts the idea that charge conduction in
insulators is inevitable. There must be some other factors at work here.
>
> One might be tempted to think this is a type of capacitor and therefore if
you >placed a conductive plate on the top surface and shorted it out to the
bottom >surface the charge would be neutralized, but no.  Frankly, I think
this is something >of a mystery.  Or maybe this is a well known phenomenon
and I've just not run >across the explanation yet.  Comments, anyone?
>
> On the other hand, the same piece of film can be charged frictionally or
otherwise >on one surface, and the charge removed almost completely from the
opposite >surface.  I have heard some rather lame explanations as to how
this is Maxwell's >charge displacement current (it's really Faraday's) but
of course displacement >current can't explain a continuous DC tranfer of
charges through a dielectric >substance.

I agree. Displacement current can't explain DC charge migration through a
capacitor.
>
> This is one little simple experiment concerning this phenomenon.  I have
quite a few others, if anyone is interested.
>
> Where do I find out more about Gustave Le Bon?
>

I really enjoy reading Gustave Le Bon. Dr. Le Bon published a lot of
scientific papers around 1900's, and was well known then for his theories on
the dissociation of matter, but his works have largely sunk into obscurity
with the passing of time. Le Bon picked up on the idea of radioactive
dissociation of matter, and believed that these ideas could be applied to
ordinary matter, and developed an entire theory on how matter can dissociate
into energy under a large number of circumstances. Although I often do not
agree with his theories, I have found his experiments thorough and thought
provoking, often pointing out anomalies not discussed anywhere else. In his
book "The Evolution of Forces" (1908) he describes a number of electrostatic
experiments, the propagation of EM waves using Hertz transmitters, the
visualization of electric lines of force, and a number of experiments on
infrared radiation. His next work, "The Evolution of Matter" , dealt
predominantly with chemical anomalies and the effect of ionizing and
non-ionizing radiation on matter, with more electroscope experiments. There
is a fascinating series of sections on particles emitted by Oudin coils and
Tesla coils, and x-ray production from odd tube arrangements including
electrodeless crookes tubes, which sound very similar to Tesla's own
observations with unipolar x-ray tubes!
    These books are hard to find, although they are in some university
libraries. I was also able to obtain copies of them from Borderland Sciences
( http://www.borderlands.com ).

Doug


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 28 10:04:38 2002
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Hi Jed.

>Well, "business" is not one community. Wall Street is probably different
>from the community of people I know who make boring technical software.

You mean like Xerox? ( 2 billion today, over and above previous admissions
of fradulent accounting ).

>But let us get a sense of perspective here. What is at stake? What are the
>consequences of unethical acts by businessmen compared to scientists?

Jed makes an interesting argument here. In the case of the businessman,
the value which is stolen already exists and in this zero sum world
of ours comes from the hides of the investors, the employees, and
the taxpayer and consumer.

In the case of the scientist, the value is virtual and only exists
through the directed actions of the scientist. One of the great
appeals of science is that it breaks the zero sum game, new value
can be created by new discovery. Although you might argue it is
unethical to withhold a new discovery, it is certainly a lesser
sin than taking what is already there. For example, the fact that
people on the streets don't just give me money is annoying, but
I can live with it (grin). If they started robbing me, now that's
another story...

Besides, your argument implies a god-like understanding of the
ramifications of discovery. We don't need to stretch
far to find examples of technology that have caused more harm
than good. Disruptive new technologies can be, well, pretty disruptive.
Has nuclear power proven to be such a benefit? Does anyone think
that if CF proven to be successful, that some clever researcher
won't come up with a way of making fusion bombs? We can make arguments
about rate limiting factors like density of active site, byproduct
poisoning, etc. but I have no doubt that someone will solve these
problems if CF is real. In fact, that we agree that it is real means
someone is probably slaving at the problem right now as we speak.

I don't mean to imply that it is ethical to sit on innovation, I'm
quite pro innovation and do my part to make the established business
sweat (smile). But I'm not so blind to believe that if I'm successful
with the new energy technology that I won't be creating a host of new
problems for our grandkids to solve. I believe that they'll be easier
problems than global warming, etc. but that's just a belief...

K.





From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 28 11:06:05 2002
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	Dear VO:

	A note of warning:

	One should NEVER point your finger at a high voltage source ...the
finger may well wind up being the best field concentration place around.
This causes shocks and Death without having to touch the source.

	By the same token:

	DO NOT put your face near or breathe on a high voltage source.

	I can easily see the vapor of the breath providng a preferred
conductive path....
	AND:

	I already have seen the NOSE be the field concentration location.

	A student wanted to see ifthey could smell ozone from a high
voltage source.  The source in this case was a plug-it-in-the-wall
ignition coil/vibrator interrupter combination marketed some years ago by 
Cenco as a "Tesla coil".  
	She decided the Best Way to detect ozone was to smell it, so she
brought the coil's pointed output electrode NEAR here nose.

	She NEVER took part in ANY high voltage experiment after that and
was nervous when she HEARD the sound of the interrupter operating anywhere
in the room.

On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, Michael Foster wrote:

> 
> William Beaty wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Michael Foster wrote:
> > 
> > > I have observed the following: If a charged object is held by an
> > > insulating rod, also charged, and the the charged object is held over
> > a
> > > steaming container of water, the charge is removed even though no
> > > conductivity was provided along the insulating rod.  In avoiding
> > > exposing the insulating rod to the water vapor, the rod itself
> > remains
> > > charged thereby showing that it did not become a conductive path.
> > 
> > You have to make certain that the field from the charged object isn't
> > causing the boiling water to start emitting oppositely-charged droplets!
> 
> I'm sorry, I should have been more specific.  The water wasn't boiling, just hot, a cup of coffee, for example.  The discharging works quite well even if you just breathe on the charged object.  The main thing is the convection of humid air.  I have a lot of "professional" electrostatic discharge equipment, carbon fiber brushes, ionizing air blowers, etc., but if you really want to drop the voltage of a charged object down to zero, this is the way.
> 
> This is a very easy experiment to duplicate why don't you try it?
> 
> M.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
> 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 28 12:21:07 2002
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Keith Nagel wrote:

>One of the great appeals of science is that it breaks the zero sum game, 
>new value can be created by new discovery.

Yes! And also engineering, fine art, making movies . . . and all creative 
enterprises. In the broadest sense creativity includes many jobs 
businessmen do, such as inventing a new way to market goods or keep 
inventory (reducing waste). But the creative contributions made by a 
businessman and ordinary programmers are far smaller than those made by a 
Darwin, Brunel, von Neumann or Hopper.


>Although you might argue it is unethical to withhold a new discovery, it 
>is certainly a lesser sin than taking what is already there.

I think not. Knowledge and new discoveries are incalculably more valuable 
than mere goods or money. If a suppressed breakthrough is never 
rediscovered, you rob all future generations. Furthermore, all knowledge is 
interrelated, one discovery often leads to another, and you can never 
predict which new discovery might be vitally important. By cutting off one 
small line of enquiry and what may seem to be a trivial discovery, you 
might kill off a hidden field of knowledge waiting to be born. It would be 
like going back in time and murdering Newton's great-grandfather.

Years before WWII, people assumed that some areas of research would never 
lead to practical benefits or major social disruption. That was said of 
pure mathematics, nuclear physics, and probably chipmunk behavior research. 
J. J. Thompson proposed a toast, "To the electron: May nobody find a use 
for it." Henry Smith (1826 - 1883) said, "Pure mathematics, may it never be 
of any use to anyone." Nowadays, electronics and computing -- the 
manipulation of electrons in comparatively tiny numbers to do mathematics 
-- is the largest industry on earth and the prime source of military power. 
Now we realize that someday a study of chipmunk behavior, or jellyfish 
tentacles, or some other obscure area of biology, might lead to some 
startling new breakthrough in brain chemistry. That, in turn, might lead to 
treatment for Alzheimer's disease, or it might let governments brainwash 
people and force confessions. No field of knowledge is neutral, and we can 
never judge what might be important, or dangerous.


>Besides, your argument implies a god-like understanding of the 
>ramifications of discovery. We don't need to stretch far to find examples 
>of technology that have caused more harm than good. Disruptive new 
>technologies can be, well, pretty disruptive. . . .

Knowledge itself is always valuable. If we choose to put it to some evil or 
ill-considered use, that is our fault. Any skill or knowledge can be 
abused. As Bacon said, "let none be alarmed at the objection of the arts 
and sciences becoming depraved to malevolent or luxurious purposes and the 
like, for the same can be said of every worldly good; talent, courage, 
strength, beauty, riches, light itself, and the rest."


>Has nuclear power proven to be such a benefit?

It might have been of greater benefit, if it had been used with more skill, 
knowledge and wisdom. Our problems with nuclear power were caused by 
stupidity, greed, and bad instrumentation, not by an overabundance of 
scientific knowledge.


>Does anyone think that if CF proven to be successful, that some clever 
>researcher won't come up with a way of making fusion bombs?

I do not think it is a forgone conclusion. I hope it isn't true!


>We can make arguments about rate limiting factors like density of active 
>site, byproduct poisoning, etc. but I have no doubt that someone will 
>solve these problems if CF is real.

We do not yet know enough to be sure of that. It might be impractical, like 
trying to make a nuclear explosion with Pa-235, which has a half-life of 70 
seconds.


>But I'm not so blind to believe that if I'm successful with the new energy 
>technology that I won't be creating a host of new problems for our 
>grandkids to solve.

This isn't just about a new energy technology. As I said above, even if it 
turns out CF can never be made into a practical source of energy, it may 
well open up new vistas, new nuclear physics, and other technology as 
important as energy, such as cheap industrial-scale transmutation. Since 
all knowledge is interrelated, it might help us learn about things in 
fields we can never guess are related. When you suppress CF, you suppress 
all knowledge and all progress, in the figurative, social and even the 
literal sense. You violate academic ethics and freedom of enquiry in 
general; you poison the minds of young researchers, teaching them to betray 
their profession; and you may cut off a thousand future Nobel class 
breakthroughs in cancer research, computing, natural science or other 
fields we have not even dreamed of yet.

As for our grandchildren, they will need all the knowledge they can muster 
to deal with the problems we leave them.

- Jed

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Jun 28, 2002
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 16:11:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 28 Jun 02   Washington, DC

1. FREE ENERGY: APS BOARD SPEAKS OUT ON PERPETUAL MOTION.  Well,
it's not exactly the frontier of physics research, but somebody
had to say it.  Already this year we've had the Jasker Power
System (WN 25 Jan 02), Chukanov Quantum Energy (WN 8 Feb 02), and
the Motionless Electromagnetic Generator (WN 5 Apr 02).  Not to
mention Bubble Fusion (WN 1 Mar 02), hydrino rockets (WN 21 Jun
02), and whatever scam Dennis Lee is running now (WN 3 May 02). 
So, on Saturday, 22 June, the Executive Board of the American
Physical Society unanimously adopted the following statement:

     "The Executive Board of the American Physical Society
     is concerned that in this period of unprecedented
     scientific advance, misguided or fraudulent claims of
     perpetual motion machines and other sources of
     unlimited free energy are proliferating.  Such devices
     would directly violate the most fundamental laws of
     Nature, laws that have guided the scientific advances
     that are transforming our world."      

2. COUNTER-TERRORISM: ACADEMY STUDY EXAMINES THE ROLE OF SCIENCE.
"In the war against terrorism," the President declared on 6 June,
"America's vast science and technology base provides us with a
key advantage."  In a report released this week, a huge committee
of the National Academy of Sciences, the National Academy of
Engineering and the Institute of Medicine, lists actions that
need to be taken immediately to protect the nation: controlling
nuclear materials, producing vaccines, improving ventilation
systems, etc.  That'll fix 'em.  The report will be examined
carefully by terrorists, not to discover new opportunities--there
are lots of those--but to scratch old ideas off their list. 

3. CYBER-TERRORISM: WAS THAT ON THE ACADEMY LIST?  The FBI is
watching suspicious electronic "visits" to digital systems that
control such things as flood gates in dams, reactor cooling in
nuclear power plants, and air traffic.  The possibility that such
controls might be manipulated raises the specter of the Internet
being used, not just to disrupt or shut down facilities, but to
turn them into weapons.  It demonstrates how difficult it is to
anticipate where or how terrorists might strike.

4. DEFENSE AUTHORIZATION: SENATE BILL CREATES A DILEMMA FOR BUSH.
The White House made it clear that any bill that cut $814M from
missile defense, as the Democratic version did, would get vetoed. 
In a classic compromise, the money was restored, but the language
left it to the President to decide whether to spend it on defense
against non-existent missiles or in the war against terrorism. 
Why not both?  Just hire Arthur Anderson to keep the books.

(Christy Fernandez assisted with this week's What's New.)
THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 28 15:43:21 2002
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> I am interested! This is great stuff.

Thanks, Jed.  That's quite a compliment, coming from you.  I've been lurking on this list for some time now and have always enjoyed your well reasoned statements and arguments.  Also, I might add, I rarely disagree with you.

M.




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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 28 16:39:00 2002
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John Schnurer wrote:

> 	Dear VO:
> 
> 	A note of warning:
> 
> 	One should NEVER point your finger at a high voltage source ...the
> finger may well wind up being the best field concentration place around.
> This causes shocks and Death without having to touch the source.
> 
> 	By the same token:
> 
> 	DO NOT put your face near or breathe on a high voltage source.
> 
> 	I can easily see the vapor of the breath providng a preferred
> conductive path....
> 	AND:
> 
> 	I already have seen the NOSE be the field concentration location.
> 
> 	A student wanted to see ifthey could smell ozone from a high
> voltage source.  The source in this case was a plug-it-in-the-wall
> ignition coil/vibrator interrupter combination marketed some years ago by
> 
> Cenco as a "Tesla coil".  
> 	She decided the Best Way to detect ozone was to smell it, so she
> brought the coil's pointed output electrode NEAR here nose.
> 
> 	She NEVER took part in ANY high voltage experiment after that and
> was nervous when she HEARD the sound of the interrupter operating
> anywhere
> in the room.

You should have had her expelled for being such a wimp. (I'm kidding, I'm kidding!)

Seriously, your words of caution are good advice.  I almost never use plug-in-the-wall or battery powered high voltage sources.  Virtually all my experiments are powered by manual friction, thus practically eliminating the possibility of injury.  See (yet again):

http://www.pcpages.com/chv1

Those nice long sparks you see discharging from the quick-and-dirty homemade Leyden jar were produced by charging the jar with a PVC pipe and a paper towel. (Click on the details link.) The only way you're going to hurt someone with this high voltage source, other than charging too large a capacitor, is to poke them in the eye with it because you're not watching what you're doing.  The Leyden jar in the picture has a capacitance of only 42pF.

Lots of instructive electrostatic experiments can be done with only a PVC pipe and a few pieces of various plastic films.  For example, you can smell ozone quite easily by placing your nose near the place where the PVC pipe exits the paper towel.  The most that will happen to your nose is a little tingle.  

M. 

 

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jun 28 19:12:27 2002
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Subject: Cheap High Voltage.
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 22:22:29 -0400
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Hi.

Nice charger design, that's a goodly sized spark!

I don't understand the electrode design, though. You have
a salt water capacitor in series with an air capacitor, all
that sparking at the base is where the air/dielectric junction
is. Why bother with the salt water if you're not taking advantage
of the intimate contact with the dielectric that it can make?
Or does this special ionizing coupling to ground improve
some other aspect of the circuit?

Do you find the PVC to be optimum for charger design? I've got
plenty of plexglas but no PVC at the moment (smile). Perhaps
a trip to the hardware store is in order...

K.


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Keith Nagel wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> Nice charger design, that's a goodly sized spark!

Thanks, Keith.
 
> I don't understand the electrode design, though. You have
> a salt water capacitor in series with an air capacitor, all
> that sparking at the base is where the air/dielectric junction
> is. Why bother with the salt water if you're not taking advantage
> of the intimate contact with the dielectric that it can make?
> Or does this special ionizing coupling to ground improve
> some other aspect of the circuit?

I originally had aluminum foil neatly attached to the outside of the bottle for increased capacitance, but when I took video of the sparks, they appeared brighter in the pictures than to the eye.  Sometimes, they were so bright that all I got was lens flare.  I presume that it is because most home video cameras are quite sensitive to the near IR.  Anyway, I removed the foil in an attempt to decrease the capacitance and make the sparks dim enough to photograph.  I didn't notice the sparks around the bottom of the bottle until I looked at the the pictures.  And of course I left the salt water there because without it the assembly is so light weight it will simply be pulled toward the other electode.

As you can imagine, this unusual design didn't come to me all at once.  At first, I did the usual; charge the Leyden jar and then discharge it with a u-shaped piece of metal with a metal ball on each end.  I noticed that as the discharge device approached the top electrode, there would be a lot of hissing before the main spark.  Meaning, of course, that most of the charge had been dissipated before the spark.  I could never get a spark longer than two inches this way.

I reasoned that what I wanted was a large electrode with a correspondingly large electric field and a little bump in it to initiate the discharge.  Here you see the result of my first attempt at such a design.  I have since modified the design with larger positive and negative electrodes.  The positive electrode is a metal salad bowl, the negative electrode a six inch cardboard tube with aluminum foil applied to it.  In this configuration, I get eight to ten inch sparks.  However, you can really wear yourself out charging this with a PVC pipe.  I don't have any pictures of this yet.

> Do you find the PVC to be optimum for charger design? I've got
> plenty of plexglas but no PVC at the moment (smile). Perhaps
> a trip to the hardware store is in order...

Plexiglas can be made to work, but it's so inferior to PVC for this purpose that it's not worth the effort.  Besides, PVC is way less expensive.  Smaller diameter pipes, 1/2" and 3/4" are best for charging things.  Larger diameter pipes, one inch and up are better for attraction and repulsion experiments.  With a well charged one inch pipe I can make a full two liter pop bottle roll back and forth across a level surface.  When you consider that this is an object weighing more than two kilograms, it makes an impressive demonstration.  It's much more dramatic than moving bits of paper or pith balls around.

I need to add a lot more to my web site explaining how to get optimum performance out the PVC pipe.  Like most friction charging, its seems to work great sometimes and others it just won't start at all.  Often this is just high humidity, other times it just defies explanation.  But I've been playing around with this for so long, I can always get it to work.  Here are some tips:

First, cut the pipe to the longest length you can handle easily.  The longest strokes give the highest volts and amps.  Make sure the pipe is clean inside and out.  I often sand the outside with a fine grit sandpaper.  Then, make sure the inside is clean by stuffing a paper towel or Kleenex into it to see if there's any carbonaceous dirt.  If so, wash it out and dry it thoroughly. (You see how I discovered the evaporative charging.)  Most of the time, none of this cleaning will be necessary.   

The paper towel sleeve should be about a foot long.  If the paper towels you have are not big enough, cut one off with scissors instead of tearing on the perforations.  The paper towel should be fairly course and rough rather than soft.  This is to prevent binding as it slides along the PVC pipe.  I prefer that Kirkland brand they sell at Costco.  You wrap the paper towel around the PVC pipe so that it's as tight as possible but still loose enough to slide easily.  Then wrap a folded terry wash cloth around the paper towel to form a grip about half an inch thick.

Slide the PVC pipe back and forth through the sleeve, but do not grip too tightly.  If all is well, the pipe should bristle and crackle with a high voltage negative charge.  It may not work immediately, so just keep it up for a while.  You can tell it's working properly if you can run your fingertips up and down the pipe and hear "invisible" sparks jumping to your hand at a distance of between two and four inches.  Actually, these sparks are visible in the dark, just not in a well lighted room.

If your PVC pipe generator is not performing very well, it might need a little preparation.  One way is to remove the sleeve and rub the pipe with the washcloth gripping it really hard and with rapid strokes.  This will warm up the pipe and drive off moisture adhering to the surface.  You can then re-wrap the paper towel onto the sleeve and start over.

An even better way to "tune up" the PVC pipe is to rub it with a chamois.  This is a sure-fire starter.  Rabbit fur is very good for this, but not very many people have it lying around the house.  You might wonder why not just use the chamois or the rabbit fur to charge the pipe and forget the paper towel.  The answer is that they just don't produce anywhere near the voltage and current. Once the PVC pipe is warmed up and pre-charged I have found it works wonderfully well even in high humidity conditions.

Well, I guess this is more than you wanted to know, but there you have it.  And now I have some more text for my web site.

M.

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 29 08:26:41 2002
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To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <michael.foster@excite.com>
Subject: RE: Cheap High Voltage.
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 11:34:51 -0400
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Hi Mike.

*****************
I originally had aluminum foil neatly attached to the outside of the bottle
for increased capacitance, but >when I took video of the sparks, they
appeared brighter in the pictures than to the eye.  Sometimes, they
were so bright that all I got was lens flare.  I presume that it is because
most home video cameras are quite sensitive to the near IR.  Anyway, I
removed the foil in an attempt to decrease the capacitance and make the
sparks dim enough to photograph.  I didn't notice the sparks around the
bottom of the bottle until I looked at the the pictures.  And of course I
left the salt water there because without it the assembly is so light weight
it will simply be pulled toward the other electode.
******************

Yes, you'd get better capacity with the foil wrapped around the bottom, much
better capacity
if you had a liquid contact on each side of the bottle. It's hard to judge
from the current
configuration whether the capacity of the electrode to ground would be
greater than
the capacity of the bottle bottom to ground, but based on proximity to
ground I'd suspect
the latter is stronger.

For a bright spark, you want more capacity. But making a 200KV capacitor is,
shall
we say, problematic?



*******************
As you can imagine, this unusual design didn't come to me all at once.  At
first, I did the usual; charge the Leyden jar and then discharge it with a
u-shaped piece of metal with a metal ball on each end.  I noticed that as
the discharge device approached the top electrode, there would be a lot of
hissing before the main spark.  Meaning, of course, that most of the charge
had been dissipated before the spark.  I could never get a spark longer than
two inches this way.

I reasoned that what I wanted was a large electrode with a correspondingly
large electric field and a little bump in it to initiate the discharge.
Here you see the result of my first attempt at such a design.  I have since
modified the design with larger positive and negative electrodes.  The
positive electrode is a metal salad bowl, the negative electrode a six inch
cardboard tube with aluminum foil applied to it.  In this configuration, I
get eight to ten inch sparks.  However, you can really wear yourself out
charging this with a PVC pipe.  I don't have any pictures of this yet.
*********************

Sounds like you're inventing the spark gap (grin). A triggered gap at that,
based on
your observation that you can initiate the spark with a third electrode
 your charger )
which distorts the E field between anode and cathode sufficient to cause
breakdown.

*********************
Plexiglas can be made to work, but it's so inferior to PVC for this purpose
that it's not worth the effort.  Besides, PVC is way less expensive.
Smaller diameter pipes, 1/2" and 3/4" are best for charging things.  Larger
diameter pipes, one inch and up are better for attraction and repulsion
experiments.  With a well charged one inch pipe I can make a full two liter
pop bottle roll back and forth across a level surface.  When you consider
that this is an object weighing more than two kilograms, it makes an
impressive demonstration.  It's much more dramatic than moving bits of paper
or pith balls around.
**********************

Wow, that is impressive!

>>>>big snip of instruction

>Well, I guess this is more than you wanted to know,
> but there you have it.  And now I have some more text for my web site.

Thanks for posting, it's a pleasure reading your descriptions and
website. I'll pop over to the hardware store on monday and pick up some
PVC pipe and paper towel and try it. It's a shame you weren't posting here
about 6 months ago when the weather was cold and bone dry, we're expecting
hot and humid in the coming week, so we'll see about that "Hawaiian dock
curse" huh?

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 29 13:52:48 2002
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Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 16:47:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
cc: Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
Subject: Assistance Please:  Fire door testing of safety standards
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	Dear Vo.,

	PLEASE:

	I am searching for an organization or entity who can show an
example of fire door testing, fire door test bed, fire door test facility
or a general equivalent.

	A fabricator who is an associate is tasked to build a one time 
 custom test fixture to test example fire door assembly.
 	I am trying to help out by finding an example of this kind of test.

	To be a little more specific:
	Some friends of mine are going to be involved in testing what
amounts to a "miniature fire door" or example of a metal and mineral wool
insulation fire door.  This "door" is simply a slab of steel and  mineral
wool insulation composite and is about 1/4 the size of a real door.  
	
	Does anyone know of a test set up that exposes "door" or "wall"
materials to flame and how it is made?

	A "home made" set up was made about like this:


	===============	| |
	L		| |
	L		| |
	L		| |
________    ..>	>.>	| |
Flame  >>>>.>>.>.>.     | |
_______	    ..>.>.>	| |
	L		| | <<<<<<  TEST DOOR
	==============	| |
			  	
	fire box of
	fire brick

	
	We are looking to see any example of a professional one or these,
the design, materials, any instrumentation, operation, detail of
construction, and other general information.

	The fire box is about 0.5 meter on each side and is generally
		square in shape and is to operate in the range of 
		room temperatures of 20 C to a top flame temperature
		range of 750 C to 1,050 C and maybe as high as
		1,250 C	  General continuous or 1 to 4 hours operation
		at about 1,150 C to 1,200 C is required.


		Thanks for taking the time and interest.

	Please post this to another list if you think it will help to
		connect us with the information.


			John Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 29 15:50:37 2002
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Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:46:45 -0700
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June 29, 2002,

Remember those UL tags? I think you can get some guidance from the Underwriters
Laboratory. They might be searchable on the Internet. Good luck.

-ak-






John Schnurer wrote:

>         Dear Vo.,
>
>         PLEASE:
>
>         I am searching for an organization or entity who can show an
> example of fire door testing, fire door test bed, fire door test facility
> or a general equivalent.
>
>         A fabricator who is an associate is tasked to build a one time
>  custom test fixture to test example fire door assembly.
>         I am trying to help out by finding an example of this kind of test.
>
>         To be a little more specific:
>         Some friends of mine are going to be involved in testing what
> amounts to a "miniature fire door" or example of a metal and mineral wool
> insulation fire door.  This "door" is simply a slab of steel and  mineral
> wool insulation composite and is about 1/4 the size of a real door.
>
>         Does anyone know of a test set up that exposes "door" or "wall"
> materials to flame and how it is made?
>
>         A "home made" set up was made about like this:
>
>         =============== | |
>         L               | |
>         L               | |
>         L               | |
> ________    ..> >.>     | |
> Flame  >>>>.>>.>.>.     | |
> _______     ..>.>.>     | |
>         L               | | <<<<<<  TEST DOOR
>         ==============  | |
>
>         fire box of
>         fire brick
>
>
>         We are looking to see any example of a professional one or these,
> the design, materials, any instrumentation, operation, detail of
> construction, and other general information.
>
>         The fire box is about 0.5 meter on each side and is generally
>                 square in shape and is to operate in the range of
>                 room temperatures of 20 C to a top flame temperature
>                 range of 750 C to 1,050 C and maybe as high as
>                 1,250 C   General continuous or 1 to 4 hours operation
>                 at about 1,150 C to 1,200 C is required.
>
>                 Thanks for taking the time and interest.
>
>         Please post this to another list if you think it will help to
>                 connect us with the information.
>
>                         John Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 29 15:51:52 2002
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From: Akira Kawasaki <aki ix.netcom.com>
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References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1020629161922.1728A-100000 college.antioch-college.edu>
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Yup, UL has a website: UL.com. They can serve your needs.

-ak-

John Schnurer wrote:

>         Dear Vo.,
>
>         PLEASE:
>
>         I am searching for an organization or entity who can show an
> example of fire door testing, fire door test bed, fire door test facility
> or a general equivalent.
>
>         A fabricator who is an associate is tasked to build a one time
>  custom test fixture to test example fire door assembly.
>         I am trying to help out by finding an example of this kind of test.
>
>         To be a little more specific:
>         Some friends of mine are going to be involved in testing what
> amounts to a "miniature fire door" or example of a metal and mineral wool
> insulation fire door.  This "door" is simply a slab of steel and  mineral
> wool insulation composite and is about 1/4 the size of a real door.
>
>         Does anyone know of a test set up that exposes "door" or "wall"
> materials to flame and how it is made?
>
>         A "home made" set up was made about like this:
>
>         =============== | |
>         L               | |
>         L               | |
>         L               | |
> ________    ..> >.>     | |
> Flame  >>>>.>>.>.>.     | |
> _______     ..>.>.>     | |
>         L               | | <<<<<<  TEST DOOR
>         ==============  | |
>
>         fire box of
>         fire brick
>
>
>         We are looking to see any example of a professional one or these,
> the design, materials, any instrumentation, operation, detail of
> construction, and other general information.
>
>         The fire box is about 0.5 meter on each side and is generally
>                 square in shape and is to operate in the range of
>                 room temperatures of 20 C to a top flame temperature
>                 range of 750 C to 1,050 C and maybe as high as
>                 1,250 C   General continuous or 1 to 4 hours operation
>                 at about 1,150 C to 1,200 C is required.
>
>                 Thanks for taking the time and interest.
>
>         Please post this to another list if you think it will help to
>                 connect us with the information.
>
>                         John Schnurer

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jun 29 19:35:36 2002
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Hello Doug and all,

I have some questions about your observation of charge tranfer through linseed oil to an electroscope.  First, what kind of electroscope was it, an old fashioned gold leaf type or was it electronic?  Then, did you find out if it was induction or was the charge actually transferred to the electrode of the electroscope?  In other words if the charge was removed from the metal plate would the electroscope then stop indicating, or was the electoscope electrode charged independently?

M. 

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 30 04:33:24 2002
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Hello, all...

This thread made me think of a novel little piece of material science I
picked up during my own search for highly chiral materials for weight and
inertia testing.

The property in question is anisotropy of conductivity.  The metalloid
tellurium - one of my absolute favorite elements - in a single crystal, will
be considerably more conductive along one axis than the others.  Many other
crystals exhibit this property too.  In transparent crystals, the property
applied to light frequencies results in a crystal that appears darker or
more colored when viewed from one axis - independent of thickness.
Pleochroic, I believe the term is.

Shifting the focus a bit- even if it is non-polar, is linseed oil a long
molecule with a chiral nature?  Perhaps when you set your electrostatic
experiment up, the molecules of the oil align with the field - sorta like
liquid crystals, I might hazard - and thus in this new orientation, the
conductivity of the oil is raised (or the dielectric strength drops?)  Maybe
something like field aided charge transfer.  Perhaps residue species in the
linseed oil that might be ionic charge carriers can then migrate along the
aligned molecules.  Just a crazy speculation.

Of course, that makes me wonder if such a charge transfer might occur
preferentially down the c-axis of a long natural quartz point or a
tourmaline or beryl.  Chiralilty assisted displacement current?  Who knows!

The candle is a bit tough to figure, since it is an amorphous solid.  I like
the idea of the wick being a conductor, though.

Oh- for the record, I have to question whoever made the statement earlier
about only polar compounds getting hot in a microwave.  I thought it was
resonant bond length that was the factor.  Making these as snacks since the
early 1980's, slices of pepperoni cook out and become jerky-like chips in an
incredibly short time!  Whatever mystery fats and oils are in pepperoni seem
to take off and absorb the energy a lot faster than the water or juice in a
lean piece of meat.  Ah...pepperoni chips!  Breakfast of geeks and all night
D and D players.

NR

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Foster <michael.foster excite.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: Charge transfer


>
> Hello Doug and all,
>
> I have some questions about your observation of charge tranfer through
linseed oil to an electroscope.  First, what kind of electroscope was it, an
old fashioned gold leaf type or was it electronic?  Then, did you find out
if it was induction or was the charge actually transferred to the electrode
of the electroscope?  In other words if the charge was removed from the
metal plate would the electroscope then stop indicating, or was the
electoscope electrode charged independently?
>
> M.
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 30 12:17:33 2002
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Nick Reiter wrote:

> The property in question is anisotropy of conductivity.  The metalloid
> tellurium - one of my absolute favorite elements - in a single crystal,
> will
> be considerably more conductive along one axis than the others.  Many
> other
> crystals exhibit this property too.  In transparent crystals, the
> property
> applied to light frequencies results in a crystal that appears darker or
> more colored when viewed from one axis - independent of thickness.
> Pleochroic, I believe the term is.

I am ashamed to admit I've never heard of this.  Where do I get some tellurium crystals?

> Shifting the focus a bit- even if it is non-polar, is linseed oil a long
> molecule with a chiral nature?  Perhaps when you set your electrostatic
> experiment up, the molecules of the oil align with the field - sorta like
> liquid crystals, I might hazard - and thus in this new orientation, the
> conductivity of the oil is raised (or the dielectric strength drops?) 
> Maybe
> something like field aided charge transfer.  Perhaps residue species in
> the
> linseed oil that might be ionic charge carriers can then migrate along
> the
> aligned molecules.  Just a crazy speculation.

Not so crazy.  Linseed oil molecules are not only polar, but they tend to polymerize.  Remember that linseed is a "drying oil", meaning that it polymerizes upon exposure to oxygen which is why it's used as a wood finish.  I was about to speculate that a strong electric field might not only align the molecules but initiate at least temporary oligomerization, providing the path of conductivity.  Well, OK, it's just a crazy speculation.
 
> Of course, that makes me wonder if such a charge transfer might occur
> preferentially down the c-axis of a long natural quartz point or a
> tourmaline or beryl.  Chiralilty assisted displacement current?  Who
> knows!
> 
> The candle is a bit tough to figure, since it is an amorphous solid.

Polycrystalline, actually.  That's why it scatters light.
 
> Oh- for the record, I have to question whoever made the statement earlier
> about only polar compounds getting hot in a microwave.  I thought it was
> resonant bond length that was the factor.  Making these as snacks since
> the
> early 1980's, slices of pepperoni cook out and become jerky-like chips in
> an
> incredibly short time!  Whatever mystery fats and oils are in pepperoni
> seem
> to take off and absorb the energy a lot faster than the water or juice in
> a
> lean piece of meat.  Ah...pepperoni chips!  Breakfast of geeks and all
> night
> D and D players.

I posted that.  I used to have the same opinion as you about it, but some comments from our estimable host, William Beaty, got me thinking otherwise.  This was a discussion on sciclub, one of his other lists that seems to have died from lack of interest (RIP).

First, those microwaves are five inches long.  Most of the resonances of the molecules we commonly place in microwave ovens lie somewhere in the optical range.  This doesn't mean resonance isn't a factor, but an electrical dipole is a must.

Consider the following. If you deflect a compass needle, it will swing back and forth at some resonant rate.  If you twist a powerful magnet back and forth near it, the compass needle will align to it regardless of the resonance it might have with the magnet.  If you were to bring an AC (say 60 Hz) electromagnet near the compass the needle would vibrate rather vigorously even though it might be completely outside whatever might be the resonant frequency of the whole setup. Then, if you were to fill the compass with some liquid and bring the AC electromagnet near, the liquid would eventually heat up.  I know this is kind of a clumsy thought model, but it helped clarify the concept for my tiny mind.

Those pepperoni chips might have the combination of being slightly conductive, having highly polar fat molecules, and being about a quarter wave across.  No wonder they heat up so fast.

M.

   


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 30 12:33:57 2002
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Hello, Michael,

See comments inserted below as ******

>
> > The property in question is anisotropy of conductivity.  The metalloid
> > tellurium - one of my absolute favorite elements - in a single crystal,
> > will
> > be considerably more conductive along one axis than the others.  Many
> > other

>
> I am ashamed to admit I've never heard of this.  Where do I get some
tellurium crystals?

******  Tellurium in crystal, polycrystalline and powdered form can be
purchased from places like Alfa Aesar, or Aldritch Chemicals, or Fisher
Scientific.  Look up Asarco in Denver Colorado, also.  I have lots of
granulated Te, but no good single crystals.  My guess is that these will be
pricey.  Unless one could grow your own from melt.


> >
> > The candle is a bit tough to figure, since it is an amorphous solid.
>
> Polycrystalline, actually.  That's why it scatters light.

********  Thats interesting.  On second thought, they probably could also be
considered as having some liquid crystal properties too - like the goo in
the bottom of a soap dish.
>

> I posted that.  I used to have the same opinion as you about it, but some
comments from our estimable host, William Beaty, got me thinking otherwise.
This was a discussion on sciclub, one of his other lists that seems to have
died from lack of interest (RIP).
>
> First, those microwaves are five inches long.  Most of the resonances of
the molecules we commonly place in microwave ovens lie somewhere in the
optical range.  This doesn't mean resonance isn't a factor, but an
electrical dipole is a must.

> Those pepperoni chips might have the combination of being slightly
conductive, having highly polar fat molecules, and being about a quarter
wave across.  No wonder they heat up so fast.

*******  That would be a good experiment!  To see if pepperoni in different
lengths heats up at different rates.  I may have to try that at work
sometime in the lunch room!

Best,

NR



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jun 30 19:18:59 2002
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Hi,

One thing that may make some more sense of electrostatic phenomena is
that,
according to Dewey Larson's Reciprocal System  (RS) of physics,
electrostatics is
an entirely different phenomenon than "current" electricity.

In RS, electrons are uncharged particles, but can acquire a charge, as
can
many particles.  "Current" electricity is the movement of electrons
(charged or
uncharged) through matter, whereas electric fields are created by
charges.

Larson shows that the majority of electrons can not be charged in
matter, else
the repulsive force would be enormous resulting in the destruction of
any matter
aggregate.  Uncharged electrons are almost unobservable (neutrino like),
but are
pervasive in the terrestrial environment.  I have one "invention" where
the 
ubiquitous flow of uncharged electrons in the environment is captured,
given a charge,
and ejected as a kind of rocket fuel.

See:

http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/satz/elecur.htm

http://www.reciprocalsystem.com

Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona
