From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  1 03:25:59 2002
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Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 00:04:44 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Cheap High Voltage.
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Sheesh, I'm on this list for so long yet still overlook stuff in my own workshop. I was cleaning off some plastic thing a few months back - can't remember exactly what it was. Maybe a polyethylene tray I use for project parts catch-alls, or a section of PVC tubing, or a pvc bucket or poly beaker, I just don't remember. But I was using paint thinner with a paper towel, and the static charge on the thing got so high I could feel it from some distance away after I set it down. It's common to feel a small amount of charge when wiping these kinds of things down, but in this one incident the charge that was unusually strong, making the whatever-it-was useless until I had sprayed it with water and wiped it down a bit to bleed it off. This was merely an annoyance and I didn't think about it at all afterwards until now - and now I can't believe I didn't pay attention to what was going on!

I went out just now and wiped down some plastic trays and pvc things with thinner and got nothing - no perceptible charge at all with the arm-hair test. Ok, now I don't care how different the humidity of the day was - that's ridiculous to go from having the thing want to fly out of my hand to zero perceptible effect. What's up with that? I also tried Michael's pipe trick with some 1" white pvc pipe about 4' long with a *Kirkland brand paper towel wrapped with a terry cloth. I got some charge, made some paper bits stick to the tube, but it wasn't much. 

*I live 1.5 miles from a Costco. It bugs me that I eat Kirkland yogurt, drive Kirkland tires, wear Kirkland socks, etc. Is there a component in common? Reminds me of that old Gahan Wilson cartoon: a train with tank cars to the horizon with the sign on each of them: "Acme Manufacturer's Paste. Used in toothpaste, french fries, cosmetics, tires, cheese, ..." 

Soilent - er, Kirkland muffin, anyone?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  1 03:27:58 2002
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Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 00:04:44 -1000
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Electric phenomena mystery on Honolulu docks
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I checked out the docks today. The decking material appears to be that (recycled?) LDPE wood substitute stuff with some reddish brown coloring in it to make it look like freshly sawn Luan or Mahogany. It's a sort of high-density foam formed in a planking proflie with the bubbles drawn out and oriented on the long axis of the pieces like wood grain. You can dent it a little bit with a fingernail, and it appears to have a slight porosity with all the fibers/bubbles. LDPE is a little bit porous to water anyway. They've already installed lots of aluminum sections in the gaps between planks, for whatever good that does. I don't know how they've linked or grounded them all, it looks like they're just inserted into the gaps and screwed into place, with the ends sometimes coming up short and failing to make contact with the large aluminum channeling fastened along the sides of the dock (the "wood" pieces run sideways like planks). All those aluminum strips with screw heads sticking up is going to be a huge mess in a few years - I know from years of living on my boat in that harbor that aluminum parts don't weather well in the salt environment. 

The evaporation idea: There doesn't seem to be any wicking or splashing from the water below, and it seldom gets cold enough, especially this time of year, for there to be condensation at night. However, brief evening rains from tradewind showers are common.  Daytime showers too some days, with intense sun heating between the brief rains. So the docks are likely to be damp many mornings, with fast drying as the day heats up. But these are floating docks which gently move and work all day long, so I wouldn't rule out the idea that friction could be playing some role.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  1 10:46:04 2002
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Looking for Kyle  Mc Allister PLEASE E mail address
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	Dear Vo.,


	PLEASE: I am looking to find the E mail for Kyle Mc Allister
			(spelling may be wrong)

	He MAY be on Free Energy ... if anyone knows of some list he is
on, or knows his E mail, please ask him to drop me a line.
	He has moved and I do not have his new E mail ...

	Thanks!

				JHS
l

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  1 11:18:34 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "ou-Builders" <ou-builders yahoogroups.com>,
        "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Microwave crucible.
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:28:56 -0400
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Hi All.

Just thought I'd drop a quick link to this...

http://home.c2i.net/metaphor/mvpage.html

No doubt some of you have had the need to melt various metals
for experimental purposes, and furnaces can run into the
1000's of dollars. A microwave oven, on the other hand, can
be picked up for under 100$. 

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  1 13:00:18 2002
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Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 09:57:09 -1000
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Subject: Re: Microwave crucible.
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Keith -

Thanks for the link. I've been thinking of using some ferrite in a ceramic vessel for microwave use, but I want reflection and not som much heating of the vessel walls. In other words, I want to shield from the MW and keep the interior of the vessel cool. Maybe a thin outer ferrite coating? The author indicates that the ferrite layer is slow to start and needs the graphite to get it up to temperature where it begins to react more. Does anyone have an idea about a ceramic additave that will tend to reflect/absorb radar? Maybe in combination with specially shaped surfaces? Stealth tech, basically! <g>

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI



>Hi All.
>
>Just thought I'd drop a quick link to this...
>
>http://home.c2i.net/metaphor/mvpage.html
>
>No doubt some of you have had the need to melt various metals
>for experimental purposes, and furnaces can run into the
>1000's of dollars. A microwave oven, on the other hand, can
>be picked up for under 100$. 
>
>K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  1 13:10:12 2002
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Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 16:07:51 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Inertial confinement National Ignition Facility information
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Here are some links pro & con regarding inertial confinement a.k.a. laser 
fusion, and the National Ignition Facility (NIF):

http://www.nas.edu/cpsma/icf.htm
http://www.aip.org/enews/fyi/2000/fyi00.065.htm
http://www.greenscissors.org/energy/nif.htm

The first item here caught my attention because it is a 1997 whitewash 
committee report chaired by Steve Koonin, one of the archenemies of cold 
fusion. It concludes: "In sum, the committee believes that the NIF can be 
delivered to specifications within the stated TPC, as augmented by 
LLNL-projected operating funds, allowing the high-energy-density and 
ignition experimental programs to proceed; there are no identifiable 'show 
stoppers.' The achievement of ignition appears likely, but not guaranteed."

The NIF was the focus of a scandal some years ago in the back pages of the 
newspapers. It was given a citation from Congress for excellence and 
on-time performance. A few weeks later memos from the project were leaked 
and Congress found out the project was actually in trouble. The program 
managers tried to hide cost overruns and technical problems. This upset the 
Congress. The project is years behind schedule. In 1993 was proposed at 
$677 million. In 1997 the DoE asked for $1.2 billion, and now it is 
expected to cost $4 billion.

The other day I compared the NIF to Xerox and Global Crossing. The $3 
billion finagled by the NIF managers is about equal to the amounts that 
were hidden by accountants at these companies. (The resulting loss in stock 
market value was much greater than $3 billion.) Since the NIF is at the 
DoE, no one is surprised by false accounting, and I expect no action will 
be taken. The NIF managers should be in trouble for trying to hide the 
losses. Perhaps they should be forgiven for going over budget in the first 
place, since this is a cutting-edge experiment. It is inherently risky.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  1 13:18:02 2002
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Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 16:17:58 -0400
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From:

http://www.tribune-chronicle.com/business/story/06302002_biz02.asp

HANOVER, N.H. - To many a scientific purist and environmentalist, the 
internal combustion engine is a bust. It is noisy, pollutes and inches 
us irrevocably toward global warming.

An interesting, but little-known alternative exists. Around for 186 
years, the Stirling engine has been used on occasion to power 
submarines, prototype cars, coal mine pumps and generators.

Named after its inventor, Church of Scotland minister Robert Stirling, 
the Stirling is an engine that some engineers and tinkerers believe 
could change the world.

The Stirling is not at all about sparks and small explosions, the 
hallmark of the internal combustion engine. It is, instead, about using 
external heat to drive internal pistons, creating clean, quiet power for 
almost unlimited applications.

If it's such a great idea, shouldn't we be running everything with 
Stirling engines?

Dean Kamen, the newly crowned king of the tinkerers and inventor of the 
Segway scooter, has taken up the challenge of finally making practical 
this technology of unrealized potential.

Kamen has said his much-hyped Segway, which currently runs on electric 
batteries, won't be complete until it's powered by a Stirling.

<more at referenced site>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  1 19:11:46 2002
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
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Maybe coper dust...

I ended up getting an oxy aceteliene torch for melting things...

Then of cource there is the ocasional rod art project (so the wife will
buy the fuel)

--- Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com> wrote:
> Keith -
> 
> Thanks for the link. I've been thinking of using some ferrite in a
> ceramic vessel for microwave use, but I want reflection and not som
> much heating of the vessel walls. In other words, I want to shield from
> the MW and keep the interior of the vessel cool. Maybe a thin outer
> ferrite coating? The author indicates that the ferrite layer is slow to
> start and needs the graphite to get it up to temperature where it
> begins to react more. Does anyone have an idea about a ceramic additave
> that will tend to reflect/absorb radar? Maybe in combination with
> specially shaped surfaces? Stealth tech, basically! <g>
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
> 
> 
> 
> >Hi All.
> >
> >Just thought I'd drop a quick link to this...
> >
> >http://home.c2i.net/metaphor/mvpage.html
> >
> >No doubt some of you have had the need to melt various metals
> >for experimental purposes, and furnaces can run into the
> >1000's of dollars. A microwave oven, on the other hand, can
> >be picked up for under 100$. 
> >
> >K.
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
http://sbc.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  1 23:34:36 2002
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From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: Microwave crucible.
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Yes, forgot about copper - makes nice colors in glaze, too. Thanks.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

>Maybe coper dust...
>
>I ended up getting an oxy aceteliene torch for melting things...
>
>Then of cource there is the ocasional rod art project (so the wife will
>buy the fuel)
>
>--- Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com> wrote:
>> Keith -

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  2 11:07:17 2002
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Keith Nagel wrote: 

> A more prosaic explaination might be impurities in the oil 
> allowing conduction. Considering the tiny currents involved, 
> and the high voltages, couldn't trace impurities be responsible 
> for charge transfer? Any scheme involving the polar molecules 
> would seem to me to fail when considering DC. 

Yes, it's true, high resistance conductivity provided by impurities in the linseed oil might be the explanation in Doug's experiment. Linseed oil, after all, is not a pure chemical substance. That's why I suggested it might be better to use mineral oil, especially the type used in capacitors. 

However, I have performed a ludicrously simple experiment that would seem to defy explanation by conventional wisdom. It's the big old thick slab of teflon experiment. To me, this is the pièce de résistance concerning this phenomenon. 

I was wandering around at C & H sales in Pasedena, a marvelous surplus store, a veritable technogeek heaven. I noticed they had some various sizes and shapes of teflon for sale. The one that caught my eye was 1 1/4 inch thick by 1 1/2 feet square. Naturally, I rubbed it with my forearm to see if it was really teflon and not HDPE. Big charge, with arm hair standing straight up. The thing cost me an arm (hair and all) and a leg, but I had to have it. 

I took it home and cleaned it up. Teflon meets a number of extreme requirements. For one thing, it's almost impossible not to charge this stuff frictionally. It also has a low dielectric constant and a very high breakdown voltage, not to mention a very low charge dissipation factor, all in all, a great insulator. Great stuff for the purpose. Here is the experiment: 

Rub a small area in the middle of the teflon slab with anything, your hand will do fine. A nice high voltage negative charge will result. If you have an electrostatic voltmeter, measure the voltage on both the surface you rubbed and the opposite surface. There will be almost no difference, a few tens of thousands of volts on each surface, but confined to the area you rubbed. Possibly, the e-field on the rubbed surface is detected from both sides, no matter. 

Now, remove the charge from the teflon slab with something, a grounded multi-pointed metal comb, a carbon fiber brush or what have you. But do this from the side that was not rubbed. You now measure the voltages on both sides and find that they are subtantially reduced, perhaps a few hundred volts. You can do this in sequence any number of times, or you can do it continuously so that the charge is constantly created on one side and removed from the other. How can this be? 

This might be explained by simple conductivity through a high resistance. But if this is true, why doesn't the charge migrate laterally at the same rate? It doesn't. It pretty much stays in the same area it in which it was created. 

Can anyone on this list explain this to me? Is there some some simple principle I have overlooked or don't know about? 

M. 
 





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Michael -

 > Can anyone on this list explain this to me? 
 > Is there some some simple principle I have overlooked or don't know about? 

Charge induction from the field around the charged spot on the teflon. Energy is added to the metal comb or whatever by bringing it into the field, and when you move it away, you permanently remove some of it from the teflon block. But that's just restating the mystery: how did charge apparently conduct through the block? It's like charging a second capacitor with some charge from a first, but there doesn't seem to be any conduction path. Did sneaky electrons just quietly blow through the plastic? Did "neutral electrons" exchange a bulk property called "charge" over distance? Was it some sort of quantum adjustment of the free electron count among the two objects, as if by teleportation? Nice experiment.

Again someone just had to ask: what is charge? <g>

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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 Dear members- It seems to me  That the air crash is a result of a faulty
                           design for the avoidance system. It appears they 
both went the
                          same way to avoid the crash. The result being they 
still hit.
                           It seems a better soft ware,or avoidance  system 
would be the
                           one traveling north should go up, and one the 
traveling west 
                           should go down in altitude. This  should be across 
the board
                             on all encounters. GES.
                           

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2> Dear members- It seems to me &nbsp;That the air crash is a result of a faulty
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;design for the avoidance system. It appears they both went the
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;same way to avoid the crash. The result being they still hit.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It seems a better soft ware,or avoidance &nbsp;system would be the
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;one traveling north should go up, and one the traveling west 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;should go down in altitude. This &nbsp;should be across the board
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;on all encounters. GES.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>

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From: "Doug Marett" <doug.marett sympatico.ca>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re:charge transfer
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 22:10:27 -0400
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Hi - I sent this yesterday but it bounced, so here it is again.

Michael Foster wrote:
>
> Hello Doug and all,
>
> I have some questions about your observation of charge tranfer through
linseed oil to an electroscope.  First, what kind of electroscope was =
it, an
old fashioned gold leaf type or was it electronic?  Then, did you find =
out
if it was induction or was the charge actually transferred to the =
electrode
of the electroscope?  In other words if the charge was removed from the
metal plate would the electroscope then stop indicating, or was the
electoscope electrode charged independently?
>

I just got back and saw your question. I have used gold leaf in the past =
on
my electroscopes, but in this case, I used an aluminum leaf ( on a =
plastic
straw pivot) which works well for most qualitative measurements and is =
more
robust. The aluminum pivots against a stationary vertical metal plate. =
The
electroscope had a metal can that was routinely connected to ground. The
charge was definitely transferred, since the leaf remained aloft after =
the
connecting clip was removed from the oil.

    I will have to try this experiment again with a non-polar insulator =
as
you have suggested. It is really humid here right now so it may take a
while...

Doug




------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01C22215.453D5460
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4728.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi - I sent this yesterday but it =
bounced, so here=20
it is again.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>Michael Foster=20
wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Hello Doug and all,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; I have some =
questions=20
about your observation of charge tranfer through<BR>linseed oil to an=20
electroscope.&nbsp; First, what kind of electroscope was it, an<BR>old =
fashioned=20
gold leaf type or was it electronic?&nbsp; Then, did you find out<BR>if =
it was=20
induction or was the charge actually transferred to the electrode<BR>of =
the=20
electroscope?&nbsp; In other words if the charge was removed from =
the<BR>metal=20
plate would the electroscope then stop indicating, or was =
the<BR>electoscope=20
electrode charged independently?<BR>&gt;<BR><BR>I just got back and saw =
your=20
question. I have used gold leaf in the past on<BR>my electroscopes, but =
in this=20
case, I used an aluminum leaf ( on a plastic<BR>straw pivot) which works =
well=20
for most qualitative measurements and is more<BR>robust. The aluminum =
pivots=20
against a stationary vertical metal plate. The<BR>electroscope had a =
metal can=20
that was routinely connected to ground. The<BR>charge was definitely=20
transferred, since the leaf remained aloft after the<BR>connecting clip =
was=20
removed from the oil.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I will have to try this=20
experiment again with a non-polar insulator as<BR>you have suggested. It =
is=20
really humid here right now so it may take=20
a<BR>while...<BR><BR>Doug</FONT><BR><BR><BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00A1_01C22215.453D5460--


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  2 19:21:14 2002
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Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:20:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Airplane collision
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--- GESREBSPAR aol.com wrote:
>  Dear members- It seems to me  That the air crash is a result of a
> faulty design for the avoidance system. It appears they both went the
> same way to avoid the crash. The result being they still hit.
>
> It seems a better soft ware,or avoidance system would be the one
> traveling north should go up, and one the traveling west should go down
> in altitude. This  should be across the board on all encounters. GES.
 
GES:

In the US commercial aircraft have travel corridors.  Altitude and a
rough flight path are predetermined by convention...  This way everybody
at your altitude is traveling the same direction.  If this is not a
standard over Europ then maybe it should be.



=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  2 19:49:28 2002
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July 2, 2002

Vortex,

I just made one of those very infrequent visits to 'sci.physics.fusion'
List to see what the other "cesspool" ( as Vortex was described by
Mallove in a recent "lovefest" here) was carrying on about.
There, Dieter Britz, the long time CF bibliographer, today kindly
forward posted a notice he received announcing an establishment of a
LENR (Low Energy Nuclear Reaction) web site. The web site is active and
persons can subscribe to it to receive notices. Biberian states that it
is carrying out  thoughts expressed at the ICCF-9 (in the closing
summaries)

The intent of the LENR website (<<http:www.LENR.org>>) "is to provide a
readily accessible archive for articles and papers about cold fusion.
Also "discussions of the papers will be encouraged ---". This is born
out of necessity since cold fusion papers are regularly rejected by
established publications usually without weighing of its merits. This is
more common in United States than elsewhere like China, France, Japan,
Russia, Italy, and others. I believe Dr. Li  introduced some Tsinghua U.
doctoral candidates for cold fusion at the ICCF-9. Sleep on, U.S..

I would recommend Vortexians, lurking or otherwise, to visit the web
site and participate.
One of the principles listed is Edmund Storms, along with Hagelstein and
Biberian. Dr, Storms missed the ICCF-9.

I do not know if they are notifying people from an edited list or not
but I would have thought participants of all the previous ICCF's would
have been notified. And at least Storms (or Rothwell or Mallove) could
have listed the Web site notice here. I just happened to catch it.

-AK-


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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <michael.foster@excite.com>
Subject: RE: Charge transfer
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 23:05:26 -0400
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Hi Michael.

I looked around a bit, and found a 5 inch x 5 inch x 1/4 inch
slab of teflon. Passed the arm hair test with flying colors, even
at midday in this oh-so humid july air. I don't have a commercial
electrometer
handy, but I did build this circuit awhile back which came courtesy
of Richard Hull.

http://www.amasci.com/electrom/sas51p1.html

( look about 1/2 way down the page. And someone tell Bill Beaty
that the links in the document are bad ).

Sadly, this circuit is limited to about +/- 7 volts. A simple
divider is out of the question, although I think I
have some resistors enclosed in glass shells that
might be servicable.

Any suggestions on the electrometer, other than spending
10 grand on a Keithley? I'm not really set up to do
this kind of stuff.

K.




-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 2:04 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Charge transfer



Keith Nagel wrote:

> A more prosaic explaination might be impurities in the oil
> allowing conduction. Considering the tiny currents involved,
> and the high voltages, couldn't trace impurities be responsible
> for charge transfer? Any scheme involving the polar molecules
> would seem to me to fail when considering DC.

Yes, it's true, high resistance conductivity provided by impurities in the
linseed oil might be the explanation in Doug's experiment. Linseed oil,
after all, is not a pure chemical substance. That's why I suggested it might
be better to use mineral oil, especially the type used in capacitors.

However, I have performed a ludicrously simple experiment that would seem to
defy explanation by conventional wisdom. It's the big old thick slab of
teflon experiment. To me, this is the pièce de résistance concerning this
phenomenon.

I was wandering around at C & H sales in Pasedena, a marvelous surplus
store, a veritable technogeek heaven. I noticed they had some various sizes
and shapes of teflon for sale. The one that caught my eye was 1 1/4 inch
thick by 1 1/2 feet square. Naturally, I rubbed it with my forearm to see if
it was really teflon and not HDPE. Big charge, with arm hair standing
straight up. The thing cost me an arm (hair and all) and a leg, but I had to
have it.

I took it home and cleaned it up. Teflon meets a number of extreme
requirements. For one thing, it's almost impossible not to charge this stuff
frictionally. It also has a low dielectric constant and a very high
breakdown voltage, not to mention a very low charge dissipation factor, all
in all, a great insulator. Great stuff for the purpose. Here is the
experiment:

Rub a small area in the middle of the teflon slab with anything, your hand
will do fine. A nice high voltage negative charge will result. If you have
an electrostatic voltmeter, measure the voltage on both the surface you
rubbed and the opposite surface. There will be almost no difference, a few
tens of thousands of volts on each surface, but confined to the area you
rubbed. Possibly, the e-field on the rubbed surface is detected from both
sides, no matter.

Now, remove the charge from the teflon slab with something, a grounded
multi-pointed metal comb, a carbon fiber brush or what have you. But do this
from the side that was not rubbed. You now measure the voltages on both
sides and find that they are subtantially reduced, perhaps a few hundred
volts. You can do this in sequence any number of times, or you can do it
continuously so that the charge is constantly created on one side and
removed from the other. How can this be?

This might be explained by simple conductivity through a high resistance.
But if this is true, why doesn't the charge migrate laterally at the same
rate? It doesn't. It pretty much stays in the same area it in which it was
created.

Can anyone on this list explain this to me? Is there some some simple
principle I have overlooked or don't know about?

M.






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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
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In reply to  Charles Ford's message of Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:20:39 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>In the US commercial aircraft have travel corridors.  Altitude and a
>rough flight path are predetermined by convention...  This way everybody
>at your altitude is traveling the same direction.  If this is not a
>standard over Europ then maybe it should be.
[snip]
I suspect it is. The Swiss tried to warn the Russian pilot that he was at the wrong altitude, but were ignored until too late. I suspect that in fact they never reacted at all, but only the avoidance software reacted, as GES suggested. I also agree that his solution is reasonable, and definitely worthy of consideration.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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Correct link: <<http://www.LENR.org>>

Akira Kawasaki wrote:

> July 2, 2002
>
> Vortex,
>
> I just made one of those very infrequent visits to 'sci.physics.fusion'
> List to see what the other "cesspool" ( as Vortex was described by
> Mallove in a recent "lovefest" here) was carrying on about.
> There, Dieter Britz, the long time CF bibliographer, today kindly
> forward posted a notice he received announcing an establishment of a
> LENR (Low Energy Nuclear Reaction) web site. The web site is active and
> persons can subscribe to it to receive notices. Biberian states that it
> is carrying out  thoughts expressed at the ICCF-9 (in the closing
> summaries)
>
> The intent of the LENR website (<<http:www.LENR.org>>) "is to provide a
> readily accessible archive for articles and papers about cold fusion.
> Also "discussions of the papers will be encouraged ---". This is born
> out of necessity since cold fusion papers are regularly rejected by
> established publications usually without weighing of its merits. This is
> more common in United States than elsewhere like China, France, Japan,
> Russia, Italy, and others. I believe Dr. Li  introduced some Tsinghua U.
> doctoral candidates for cold fusion at the ICCF-9. Sleep on, U.S..
>
> I would recommend Vortexians, lurking or otherwise, to visit the web
> site and participate.
> One of the principles listed is Edmund Storms, along with Hagelstein and
> Biberian. Dr, Storms missed the ICCF-9.
>
> I do not know if they are notifying people from an edited list or not
> but I would have thought participants of all the previous ICCF's would
> have been notified. And at least Storms (or Rothwell or Mallove) could
> have listed the Web site notice here. I just happened to catch it.
>
> -AK-

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As Akira noted, the following e-letter was sent to a number of people in
the CF field for whom we have an e-mail address.  The intent is to acquire
papers describing CF in electronic form that can be placed on the website.
Over time, other people will be contacted by e-mail and by s-mail.  Papers
that are not available in e-form will be scanned, time permitting.  I
expect the website will slowly grow as more papers are loaded and as people
take advantage of the resource.  Currently, only the bare bones are
available.   Since this is a labor of love, any help would be most welcome.

Ed



To every one interested in cold fusion

 A website for cold fusion, located at www.LENR.org, is now being created,
as discussed briefly at ICCF-9.  The intent is to provide a single location
where important papers in the field can be read, a place where new papers
can be posted after peer review, a place where people in the field can
interact, and a place where the interested public can learn the latest
information.  The description of the subject presently found on the website
will be improved over time to include input from many people as interest in
the site grows.  Each intended use of the website is described in more
detail below.


Creation of an archive:
The first goal is to provide a readily accessible archive for articles and
papers about cold fusion. As the first step, we are asking for electronic
copies (Microsoft Word or Adobe Acrobat .pdf format) of your previously
published papers.  You are free to make corrections, but for historical
purposes, the electronic version should be substantially as published.  Of
special interest, are papers published in ICCF Proceedings, which are
largely unavailable to interested students.  While we will include scanned
copies of all papers as time permits, your contribution will make this
process much faster.  In addition, please include a note giving us
permission to distribute your work on the website, for copyright purposes.

Process for publishing new papers:
At some time in the future, requests for new papers will be sent out.  Such
papers will be placed in a part of the site requiring password access,
where the review process will take place.  After review and suitable
editing, the authors will have the choice of placing their papers on the
public part of the site or submitting their papers to a print journal of
their choosing, with the version on the website being retained for archival
purposes.  In addition, discussion about the papers will be encouraged so
that authors can improve their papers by considering information and
comments from their peers before committing to print.  By this process,
papers published in the field can achieve a higher standard and a greater
believability.

Operation of Discussion Groups:
Two types of discussion will be available, public and private.  Discussion
during the review process will be private until all or part is released to
the public by the author.  Public discussion will be encouraged between
people working in the field and with the public.

Public Information:
A section on the home page will be used to summarize the best understanding
about the field in terms that a layman can understand.  This summary will
be provided by an advisory committee.  Also, a section devoted to
scientific reviews will be provided so that the technically trained can
learn how to duplicate the claims.


We would like to place a list of e-mail addresses, physical addresses, and
telephone numbers on the site.  If you do not want your e-mail address
listed, please so indicate.  If you would like your address and telephone
number included, please provide this information in your reply.  This
message is first going to people whose e-mail addresses we know.  Later, a
letter will be sent to the physical address of people who do not have
e-mail.  We hope to contact everyone who has published in this field.

Because this undertaking will require significant time and effort, we would
appreciate any help you can give. We will need people to scan published
papers, and help reviewing and editing submitted papers.  Hopefully, this
process will provide us all with a greater sense of community and a source
of information for our own use, and the use of new converts.

More detail about how you can help, how the website will be operated, and
how papers can be submitted will be sent later.

Best regards,

Jean-Paul Biberian
Peter Hagelstein
Ed Storms

Akira Kawasaki wrote:

> July 2, 2002
>
> Vortex,
>
> I just made one of those very infrequent visits to 'sci.physics.fusion'
> List to see what the other "cesspool" ( as Vortex was described by
> Mallove in a recent "lovefest" here) was carrying on about.
> There, Dieter Britz, the long time CF bibliographer, today kindly
> forward posted a notice he received announcing an establishment of a
> LENR (Low Energy Nuclear Reaction) web site. The web site is active and
> persons can subscribe to it to receive notices. Biberian states that it
> is carrying out  thoughts expressed at the ICCF-9 (in the closing
> summaries)
>
> The intent of the LENR website (<<http:www.LENR.org>>) "is to provide a
> readily accessible archive for articles and papers about cold fusion.
> Also "discussions of the papers will be encouraged ---". This is born
> out of necessity since cold fusion papers are regularly rejected by
> established publications usually without weighing of its merits. This is
> more common in United States than elsewhere like China, France, Japan,
> Russia, Italy, and others. I believe Dr. Li  introduced some Tsinghua U.
> doctoral candidates for cold fusion at the ICCF-9. Sleep on, U.S..
>
> I would recommend Vortexians, lurking or otherwise, to visit the web
> site and participate.
> One of the principles listed is Edmund Storms, along with Hagelstein and
> Biberian. Dr, Storms missed the ICCF-9.
>
> I do not know if they are notifying people from an edited list or not
> but I would have thought participants of all the previous ICCF's would
> have been notified. And at least Storms (or Rothwell or Mallove) could
> have listed the Web site notice here. I just happened to catch it.
>
> -AK-

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  2 22:06:37 2002
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Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 22:04:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Airplane collision
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
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OK...  I am with you...   but this is much mor complicated then it looks.
 So you use the heading to deside...  e.g if heading > 180 then go down
otherwise go up.  but these aircraft where on a cross cource.  Say one
was heading at 45 and the other at 135...  They would both choose down
and still crash.  I agree that avoidance protocal must be the same across
te board but it also has to be one that works.   

--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> In reply to  Charles Ford's message of Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:20:39 -0700:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >In the US commercial aircraft have travel corridors.  Altitude and a
> >rough flight path are predetermined by convention...  This way
> everybody
> >at your altitude is traveling the same direction.  If this is not a
> >standard over Europ then maybe it should be.
> [snip]
> I suspect it is. The Swiss tried to warn the Russian pilot that he was
> at the wrong altitude, but were ignored until too late. I suspect that
> in fact they never reacted at all, but only the avoidance software
> reacted, as GES suggested. I also agree that his solution is
> reasonable, and definitely worthy of consideration.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 
> Competition provides the motivation,
> Cooperation provides the means.
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
http://sbc.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  3 02:03:32 2002
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Subject: Re: Charge transfer
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <michael.foster@excite.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 10:05 PM
Subject: RE: Charge transfer

Keith wrote:


> Hi Michael.
>
> I looked around a bit, and found a 5 inch x 5 inch x 1/4 inch
> slab of teflon. Passed the arm hair test with flying colors, even
> at midday in this oh-so humid july air. I don't have a commercial
> electrometer
> handy, but I did build this circuit awhile back which came courtesy
> of Richard Hull.
>
> http://www.amasci.com/electrom/sas51p1.html

This effect is reminescent of the posts I made last year regarding the effect of
waving the ~ meter long test leads of a DVM hooked to a 10 megohm or higher resistor
with the DVM set on the 300 mv range and observing an "induced voltage" or driving
around the countyside with the setup laying on the car seat and observing a voltage
Only When The Vehicle was Accelerated or Decelerated.

After careful experiments made with the meter and leads duct-taped to a 6 foot long
broom handle (as suggested by Frank Stenger) which showed No Effect,when the apparatus
was waved vigorously around, the conclusion is that there is ample static electricity
accumulated on ones
person or clothing, or on the car seat, to cause the anomalous
triboelectric-electrostatic effect.

IOW, whether it's regular electrons or Light Leptons, Static Electricty Pervades the
Environment.

Also, stripping down to your birthday suit (and taking a cold shower)  removes enough
Static Electricity to cause the Effect to Disappear.  :-)

>
> ( look about 1/2 way down the page. And someone tell Bill Beaty
> that the links in the document are bad ).
>
> Sadly, this circuit is limited to about +/- 7 volts. A simple
> divider is out of the question, although I think I
> have some resistors enclosed in glass shells that
> might be servicable.
>
> Any suggestions on the electrometer, other than spending
> 10 grand on a Keithley? I'm not really set up to do
> this kind of stuff.

Repeat the meter test, Keith.

There have been explosions on oil tankers caused by the buildup of static electricty
when the empty tanks were being hosed down.

Regards,   Frederick
>
> K.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 2:04 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Charge transfer
>
>
>
> Keith Nagel wrote:
>
> > A more prosaic explaination might be impurities in the oil
> > allowing conduction. Considering the tiny currents involved,
> > and the high voltages, couldn't trace impurities be responsible
> > for charge transfer? Any scheme involving the polar molecules
> > would seem to me to fail when considering DC.
>
> Yes, it's true, high resistance conductivity provided by impurities in the
> linseed oil might be the explanation in Doug's experiment. Linseed oil,
> after all, is not a pure chemical substance. That's why I suggested it might
> be better to use mineral oil, especially the type used in capacitors.
>
> However, I have performed a ludicrously simple experiment that would seem to
> defy explanation by conventional wisdom. It's the big old thick slab of
> teflon experiment. To me, this is the pièce de résistance concerning this
> phenomenon.
>
> I was wandering around at C & H sales in Pasedena, a marvelous surplus
> store, a veritable technogeek heaven. I noticed they had some various sizes
> and shapes of teflon for sale. The one that caught my eye was 1 1/4 inch
> thick by 1 1/2 feet square. Naturally, I rubbed it with my forearm to see if
> it was really teflon and not HDPE. Big charge, with arm hair standing
> straight up. The thing cost me an arm (hair and all) and a leg, but I had to
> have it.
>
> I took it home and cleaned it up. Teflon meets a number of extreme
> requirements. For one thing, it's almost impossible not to charge this stuff
> frictionally. It also has a low dielectric constant and a very high
> breakdown voltage, not to mention a very low charge dissipation factor, all
> in all, a great insulator. Great stuff for the purpose. Here is the
> experiment:
>
> Rub a small area in the middle of the teflon slab with anything, your hand
> will do fine. A nice high voltage negative charge will result. If you have
> an electrostatic voltmeter, measure the voltage on both the surface you
> rubbed and the opposite surface. There will be almost no difference, a few
> tens of thousands of volts on each surface, but confined to the area you
> rubbed. Possibly, the e-field on the rubbed surface is detected from both
> sides, no matter.
>
> Now, remove the charge from the teflon slab with something, a grounded
> multi-pointed metal comb, a carbon fiber brush or what have you. But do this
> from the side that was not rubbed. You now measure the voltages on both
> sides and find that they are subtantially reduced, perhaps a few hundred
> volts. You can do this in sequence any number of times, or you can do it
> continuously so that the charge is constantly created on one side and
> removed from the other. How can this be?
>
> This might be explained by simple conductivity through a high resistance.
> But if this is true, why doesn't the charge migrate laterally at the same
> rate? It doesn't. It pretty much stays in the same area it in which it was
> created.
>
> Can anyone on this list explain this to me? Is there some some simple
> principle I have overlooked or don't know about?
>
> M.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  3 05:24:27 2002
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GESREBSPAR aol.com wrote:

> Dear members- It seems to me  That the air crash is a result of a faulty
>                           design for the avoidance system. It appears 
> they both went the
>                          same way to avoid the crash. The result being 
> they still hit.
>                           It seems a better soft ware,or avoidance 
>  system would be the
>                           one traveling north should go up, and one 
> the traveling west
>                           should go down in altitude. This  should be 
> across the board
>                             on all encounters. GES.
>                           


The Swiss admitted today that the system which normally warns of space 
conflicts was down for maintenance; hence, the Russian pilot received 
only 50 seconds warning.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  3 07:05:05 2002
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Subject: Re: Charge transfer
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	Dear Folks,

	I tried to load the "electrometer" circuit and got a 3 to 7 layer
adertisement "smart and sticky" URL... but no data.

	If anyone knows the PLAIN address for the electrometer I will be
happy to look it over, if it is not a useful electrometer for experimenter
I will offer a good design and someone can scan it in.

	I have 4 useful general designs:

	Electrometer variations:

	MOSFET
	JFET
	Differential
	Gradiometric

	You can also make a differential gradiometer, but it is a little
work and you can put logarithmic compression to help compwnsate from wild
swings.
	A log compressor that you can "dial" variable "k" from square root
to 5th root and anywhere in between in an infinitely variable single turn
control is very good and a choice of single ended and differential is a
very good practice if you expect large unknown variations.

				J

On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Frederick Sparber wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
> To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <michael.foster@excite.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 10:05 PM
> Subject: RE: Charge transfer
> 
> Keith wrote:
> 
> 
> > Hi Michael.
> >
> > I looked around a bit, and found a 5 inch x 5 inch x 1/4 inch
> > slab of teflon. Passed the arm hair test with flying colors, even
> > at midday in this oh-so humid july air. I don't have a commercial
> > electrometer
> > handy, but I did build this circuit awhile back which came courtesy
> > of Richard Hull.
> >
> > http://www.amasci.com/electrom/sas51p1.html
> 
> This effect is reminescent of the posts I made last year regarding the effect of
> waving the ~ meter long test leads of a DVM hooked to a 10 megohm or higher resistor
> with the DVM set on the 300 mv range and observing an "induced voltage" or driving
> around the countyside with the setup laying on the car seat and observing a voltage
> Only When The Vehicle was Accelerated or Decelerated.
> 
> After careful experiments made with the meter and leads duct-taped to a 6 foot long
> broom handle (as suggested by Frank Stenger) which showed No Effect,when the apparatus
> was waved vigorously around, the conclusion is that there is ample static electricity
> accumulated on ones
> person or clothing, or on the car seat, to cause the anomalous
> triboelectric-electrostatic effect.
> 
> IOW, whether it's regular electrons or Light Leptons, Static Electricty Pervades the
> Environment.
> 
> Also, stripping down to your birthday suit (and taking a cold shower)  removes enough
> Static Electricity to cause the Effect to Disappear.  :-)
> 
> >
> > ( look about 1/2 way down the page. And someone tell Bill Beaty
> > that the links in the document are bad ).
> >
> > Sadly, this circuit is limited to about +/- 7 volts. A simple
> > divider is out of the question, although I think I
> > have some resistors enclosed in glass shells that
> > might be servicable.
> >
> > Any suggestions on the electrometer, other than spending
> > 10 grand on a Keithley? I'm not really set up to do
> > this kind of stuff.
> 
> Repeat the meter test, Keith.
> 
> There have been explosions on oil tankers caused by the buildup of static electricty
> when the empty tanks were being hosed down.
> 
> Regards,   Frederick
> >
> > K.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 2:04 PM
> > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Subject: Re: Charge transfer
> >
> >
> >
> > Keith Nagel wrote:
> >
> > > A more prosaic explaination might be impurities in the oil
> > > allowing conduction. Considering the tiny currents involved,
> > > and the high voltages, couldn't trace impurities be responsible
> > > for charge transfer? Any scheme involving the polar molecules
> > > would seem to me to fail when considering DC.
> >
> > Yes, it's true, high resistance conductivity provided by impurities in the
> > linseed oil might be the explanation in Doug's experiment. Linseed oil,
> > after all, is not a pure chemical substance. That's why I suggested it might
> > be better to use mineral oil, especially the type used in capacitors.
> >
> > However, I have performed a ludicrously simple experiment that would seem to
> > defy explanation by conventional wisdom. It's the big old thick slab of
> > teflon experiment. To me, this is the pièce de résistance concerning this
> > phenomenon.
> >
> > I was wandering around at C & H sales in Pasedena, a marvelous surplus
> > store, a veritable technogeek heaven. I noticed they had some various sizes
> > and shapes of teflon for sale. The one that caught my eye was 1 1/4 inch
> > thick by 1 1/2 feet square. Naturally, I rubbed it with my forearm to see if
> > it was really teflon and not HDPE. Big charge, with arm hair standing
> > straight up. The thing cost me an arm (hair and all) and a leg, but I had to
> > have it.
> >
> > I took it home and cleaned it up. Teflon meets a number of extreme
> > requirements. For one thing, it's almost impossible not to charge this stuff
> > frictionally. It also has a low dielectric constant and a very high
> > breakdown voltage, not to mention a very low charge dissipation factor, all
> > in all, a great insulator. Great stuff for the purpose. Here is the
> > experiment:
> >
> > Rub a small area in the middle of the teflon slab with anything, your hand
> > will do fine. A nice high voltage negative charge will result. If you have
> > an electrostatic voltmeter, measure the voltage on both the surface you
> > rubbed and the opposite surface. There will be almost no difference, a few
> > tens of thousands of volts on each surface, but confined to the area you
> > rubbed. Possibly, the e-field on the rubbed surface is detected from both
> > sides, no matter.
> >
> > Now, remove the charge from the teflon slab with something, a grounded
> > multi-pointed metal comb, a carbon fiber brush or what have you. But do this
> > from the side that was not rubbed. You now measure the voltages on both
> > sides and find that they are subtantially reduced, perhaps a few hundred
> > volts. You can do this in sequence any number of times, or you can do it
> > continuously so that the charge is constantly created on one side and
> > removed from the other. How can this be?
> >
> > This might be explained by simple conductivity through a high resistance.
> > But if this is true, why doesn't the charge migrate laterally at the same
> > rate? It doesn't. It pretty much stays in the same area it in which it was
> > created.
> >
> > Can anyone on this list explain this to me? Is there some some simple
> > principle I have overlooked or don't know about?
> >
> > M.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------
> > Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> > The most personalized portal on the Web!
> >
> >
> 

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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: New Cold Fusion (i.e. LENR) website announced --- to a few?
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Akira Kawasaki wrote:

>I do not know if they are notifying people from an edited list or not
>but I would have thought participants of all the previous ICCF's would
>have been notified. And at least Storms (or Rothwell or Mallove) could
>have listed the Web site notice here.

Ed asked us to delay a little while he organized something. Not sure what.

- Jed

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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 07:27:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Airplane collision
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I understand the FDR and CVR boxes have been recovered...  We will know
soon...

 
--- Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> In reply to  Charles Ford's message of Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:20:39 -0700:
> Hi,
> [snip]
> >In the US commercial aircraft have travel corridors.  Altitude and a
> >rough flight path are predetermined by convention...  This way
> everybody
> >at your altitude is traveling the same direction.  If this is not a
> >standard over Europ then maybe it should be.
> [snip]
> I suspect it is. The Swiss tried to warn the Russian pilot that he was
> at the wrong altitude, but were ignored until too late. I suspect that
> in fact they never reacted at all, but only the avoidance software
> reacted, as GES suggested. I also agree that his solution is
> reasonable, and definitely worthy of consideration.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk
> 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
> 
> Competition provides the motivation,
> Cooperation provides the means.
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
http://sbc.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  3 08:56:50 2002
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Charge transfer
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:07:00 -0400
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Hi John.

Yes, I was annoyed with those ads as well. If you read my
original post, I mentioned that someone should tip
Bill Beaty that the links in the document posted on his
site are bad. More specifically, they point back to the
URL of the site the document was snookered from (grin).

Fortunately, the links are A-refs, meaning they refer
to something on the same page. Just go to the page I
posted, and hit the down arrow until you get to the
part of the newsletter with the circuit. While down
arrowing you can read the newsletter too... but don't
click the links in the newsletter!

The problem I have with the Hull design is simply
range, sticking any sort of divider on the front
end ruins the super high impedence of the input.
Perhaps you can tell us about the range of the
other circuits you mention.

By the way, as I'm pretty new to electrostatics,
I have a few "dumb" questions. Here's the first.
You all talk about measuring the charge with the
electrometer. Well, I was not aware that one
could make an absolute voltage measurement as
such. In my case, ground is the case of the
electrometer, which I can connect to the metal
desktop to have a well defined ground. Bringing
a grounded brush to the surface of the teflon
changes the configuration of ground, altering
the electric fields and inducing new charges in
the surrounding areas. In fact, I'm beginning
to think that induction is playing a role in
this effect that we've been discussing, rather than
conduction.

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: John Schnurer [mailto:herman antioch-college.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 10:03 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Cc: knagel gis.net
Subject: Re: Charge transfer




	Dear Folks,

	I tried to load the "electrometer" circuit and got a 3 to 7 layer
adertisement "smart and sticky" URL... but no data.

	If anyone knows the PLAIN address for the electrometer I will be
happy to look it over, if it is not a useful electrometer for experimenter
I will offer a good design and someone can scan it in.

	I have 4 useful general designs:

	Electrometer variations:

	MOSFET
	JFET
	Differential
	Gradiometric

	You can also make a differential gradiometer, but it is a little
work and you can put logarithmic compression to help compwnsate from wild
swings.
	A log compressor that you can "dial" variable "k" from square root
to 5th root and anywhere in between in an infinitely variable single turn
control is very good and a choice of single ended and differential is a
very good practice if you expect large unknown variations.

				J

On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Frederick Sparber wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
> To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <michael.foster@excite.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 10:05 PM
> Subject: RE: Charge transfer
>
> Keith wrote:
>
>
> > Hi Michael.
> >
> > I looked around a bit, and found a 5 inch x 5 inch x 1/4 inch
> > slab of teflon. Passed the arm hair test with flying colors, even
> > at midday in this oh-so humid july air. I don't have a commercial
> > electrometer
> > handy, but I did build this circuit awhile back which came courtesy
> > of Richard Hull.
> >
> > http://www.amasci.com/electrom/sas51p1.html
>
> This effect is reminescent of the posts I made last year regarding the
effect of
> waving the ~ meter long test leads of a DVM hooked to a 10 megohm or
higher resistor
> with the DVM set on the 300 mv range and observing an "induced voltage" or
driving
> around the countyside with the setup laying on the car seat and observing
a voltage
> Only When The Vehicle was Accelerated or Decelerated.
>
> After careful experiments made with the meter and leads duct-taped to a 6
foot long
> broom handle (as suggested by Frank Stenger) which showed No Effect,when
the apparatus
> was waved vigorously around, the conclusion is that there is ample static
electricity
> accumulated on ones
> person or clothing, or on the car seat, to cause the anomalous
> triboelectric-electrostatic effect.
>
> IOW, whether it's regular electrons or Light Leptons, Static Electricty
Pervades the
> Environment.
>
> Also, stripping down to your birthday suit (and taking a cold shower)
removes enough
> Static Electricity to cause the Effect to Disappear.  :-)
>
> >
> > ( look about 1/2 way down the page. And someone tell Bill Beaty
> > that the links in the document are bad ).
> >
> > Sadly, this circuit is limited to about +/- 7 volts. A simple
> > divider is out of the question, although I think I
> > have some resistors enclosed in glass shells that
> > might be servicable.
> >
> > Any suggestions on the electrometer, other than spending
> > 10 grand on a Keithley? I'm not really set up to do
> > this kind of stuff.
>
> Repeat the meter test, Keith.
>
> There have been explosions on oil tankers caused by the buildup of static
electricty
> when the empty tanks were being hosed down.
>
> Regards,   Frederick
> >
> > K.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 2:04 PM
> > To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> > Subject: Re: Charge transfer
> >
> >
> >
> > Keith Nagel wrote:
> >
> > > A more prosaic explaination might be impurities in the oil
> > > allowing conduction. Considering the tiny currents involved,
> > > and the high voltages, couldn't trace impurities be responsible
> > > for charge transfer? Any scheme involving the polar molecules
> > > would seem to me to fail when considering DC.
> >
> > Yes, it's true, high resistance conductivity provided by impurities in
the
> > linseed oil might be the explanation in Doug's experiment. Linseed oil,
> > after all, is not a pure chemical substance. That's why I suggested it
might
> > be better to use mineral oil, especially the type used in capacitors.
> >
> > However, I have performed a ludicrously simple experiment that would
seem to
> > defy explanation by conventional wisdom. It's the big old thick slab of
> > teflon experiment. To me, this is the pièce de résistance concerning
this
> > phenomenon.
> >
> > I was wandering around at C & H sales in Pasedena, a marvelous surplus
> > store, a veritable technogeek heaven. I noticed they had some various
sizes
> > and shapes of teflon for sale. The one that caught my eye was 1 1/4 inch
> > thick by 1 1/2 feet square. Naturally, I rubbed it with my forearm to
see if
> > it was really teflon and not HDPE. Big charge, with arm hair standing
> > straight up. The thing cost me an arm (hair and all) and a leg, but I
had to
> > have it.
> >
> > I took it home and cleaned it up. Teflon meets a number of extreme
> > requirements. For one thing, it's almost impossible not to charge this
stuff
> > frictionally. It also has a low dielectric constant and a very high
> > breakdown voltage, not to mention a very low charge dissipation factor,
all
> > in all, a great insulator. Great stuff for the purpose. Here is the
> > experiment:
> >
> > Rub a small area in the middle of the teflon slab with anything, your
hand
> > will do fine. A nice high voltage negative charge will result. If you
have
> > an electrostatic voltmeter, measure the voltage on both the surface you
> > rubbed and the opposite surface. There will be almost no difference, a
few
> > tens of thousands of volts on each surface, but confined to the area you
> > rubbed. Possibly, the e-field on the rubbed surface is detected from
both
> > sides, no matter.
> >
> > Now, remove the charge from the teflon slab with something, a grounded
> > multi-pointed metal comb, a carbon fiber brush or what have you. But do
this
> > from the side that was not rubbed. You now measure the voltages on both
> > sides and find that they are subtantially reduced, perhaps a few hundred
> > volts. You can do this in sequence any number of times, or you can do it
> > continuously so that the charge is constantly created on one side and
> > removed from the other. How can this be?
> >
> > This might be explained by simple conductivity through a high
resistance.
> > But if this is true, why doesn't the charge migrate laterally at the
same
> > rate? It doesn't. It pretty much stays in the same area it in which it
was
> > created.
> >
> > Can anyone on this list explain this to me? Is there some some simple
> > principle I have overlooked or don't know about?
> >
> > M.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------
> > Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> > The most personalized portal on the Web!
> >
> >
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  3 10:57:34 2002
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Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 13:54:17 -0400
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Subject: NOT SPAM free scanner for the asking
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I have a small surplus scanner, a Canon N656U, 12" x 8.5". It is slow and 
colors are not great, but it works. It weighs 3.7 lbs including 
documentation and cable. For a similar model see:

http://consumer.usa.canon.com/scanners/csn676u/index.html

I will mail it parcel post to the first person who asks for it. Please 
e-mail me directly your full mailing address in a form convenient to cut 
and paste to my Labelwriter.

I replaced it with an expensive HP scanjet, which is very fast and includes 
an automatic document feeder. If you have serious scanning needs, you 
should purchase something like this. Nowadays you can scan documents and 
pictures much larger than the scanner surface, using "stitching" or 
"panorama" programs. This one gets good reviews:

http://www.panavue.com/

http://www.pcphotoreview.com/Panorama/PLS_3081crx.aspx

- Jed

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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Jul 03, 2002
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:22:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 5 Jul 02   Washington, DC

1. PATRIOT ACT: IS THE FBI'S "LIBRARY AWARENESS PROGRAM" BACK? 
Just six weeks after 9/11, and after almost no debate, Congress
passed the Patriot Act.  One provision gave the FBI authority to
obtain library circulation records.  We went through that during
the cold war, when FBI agents, under what became known as the
"library awareness program," tried to recruit university science
librarians to act as snitches, reporting on the reading habits of
"suspicious" people (WN 3 Jun 88).  The program was terminated in
the face of protests from science organizations, the American
Library Association and Congress.  In 37 states, your reading
habits are protected information, but the federal Patriot Act
overrides these state laws.  Before the Patriot Act passed, WN
cautioned against trading freedom for security (WN 12 Oct 01). 
An ALA statement is being prepared that will oppose those parts
of the Patriot Act that interfere with the right to read.

2. CHILDREN'S INTERNET PROTECTION ACT: THE LIBRARIANS WIN ONE. 
On 31 May, a three-judge panel in Pennsylvania ruled that CIPA is
unconstitutional.  As a result, libraries are not required to
install filtering software on their computers to be eligible for
federal funds.  The Children's Internet Protection Act is, of
course, a misnomer.  It would censor everyone, not just children. 
There are, in any case, less restrictive alternatives already in
use to protect children from inappropriate material.  The ALA,
which has incurred legal costs of $1.3M in its challenge, fully
expects the decision to be appealed, and is currently soliciting
contributions from its members to a CIPA Legal Fund.

3. WHICH ALMIGHTY? PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE RULED UNCONSTITUTIONAL. 
While we're on the subject of First Amendment guarantees, the
government argued that "under God," added to the pledge by
Congress in 1954, had minimal religious content.  But President
Eisenhower, who signed the legislation, wrote "it will daily
proclaim the dedication of our nation and our people to the
Almighty."  That led a federal appeals court to rule that the
pledge violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

4. FIRST STRIKE: ISOLATED FROM THE COURT OF WORLD OPINION.  On
Tuesday, President Bush repudiated the newly established
International Criminal Court to protect U.S. sovereignty.  Other
countries protecting their sovereignty from the court are Russia,
China, Turkey, Iran, Iraq and North Korea.  Our sovereignty seems
to be in good shape; other international agreements we've pulled
out of include the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, the Land Mine
Treaty, the Chemical Weapons Convention, the Bioweapons Protocol,
the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, the Kyoto Protocol, and the
Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.  Now that's sovereignty.

(Christy Fernandez assisted with this week's What's New.)
THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University and the American Physical Society, but they should be.

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Airplane collision
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 09:02:21 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Charles Ford's message of Tue, 2 Jul 2002 22:04:01 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]

>OK...  I am with you...   but this is much mor complicated then it looks.
> So you use the heading to deside...  e.g if heading > 180 then go down
>otherwise go up.  but these aircraft where on a cross cource.  Say one
>was heading at 45 and the other at 135...  They would both choose down
>and still crash.  I agree that avoidance protocal must be the same across
>te board but it also has to be one that works.   
[snip]
I agree. Perhaps adding a turn to the right would do the trick.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul  3 16:29:59 2002
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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:27:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
To: Keith Nagel <knagel gis.net>
cc: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Charge transfer
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On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Keith Nagel wrote:

> Hi John.
>
> Yes, I was annoyed with those ads as well. If you read my
> original post, I mentioned that someone should tip
> Bill Beaty that the links in the document posted on his
> site are bad. More specifically, they point back to the
> URL of the site the document was snookered from (grin).

DOH!   On my own site I point to the article using the url
http://www.amasci.com/electrom/sas51p1.html#Electro
I didn't notice the index at the top of the article.  There was a BASE REF
statement screwing that up.  Fixed now.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    sciclub-list freenrg-L vortex-L webhead-L

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From: GESREBSPAR aol.com
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Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 10:30:05 EDT
Subject: The World goes to Mars.
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To All - The Russians have proposed a world mission to Mars. Being A former
            employee of the moon mission  in the 60'S and 70'S I am elated 
that
             they have proposed this endeavor, regardless of the cost.
              I just hope I live long enough to see it happen.I pledge my tax 
dollars,
               how about you. thanks GES.

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>To All - The Russians have proposed a world mission to Mars. Being A former
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;employee of the moon mission &nbsp;in the 60'S and 70'S I am elated that
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;they have proposed this endeavor, regardless of the cost.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I just hope I live long enough to see it happen.I pledge my tax dollars,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;how about you. thanks GES.</FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  6 14:29:10 2002
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, GESREBSPAR@aol.com
Subject: Re: The World goes to Mars.
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 17:27:07 -0400
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On Saturday 06 July 2002 10:30, GESREBSPAR aol.com wrote:
> To All - The Russians have proposed a world mission to Mars. Being A former
>             employee of the moon mission  in the 60'S and 70'S I am elated
> that
>              they have proposed this endeavor, regardless of the cost.
>               I just hope I live long enough to see it happen.I pledge my
> tax dollars,
>                how about you. thanks GES.

To All
    I found the reference to the appropriate Russian Scientific Academy
and will email them also this suggestion, that being we should move
away from dependance on chemically fueled vehicles when the doorway
is at long last open to the use of those with a far better specific impulse.
Nuclear powered laser driven plasma engines' reaction mass exhaust
velocity of near relativistic speeds have been laboratory demonstrated.
A vehicle fitted with two or more of them for multiple redundancy reliability,
and a disk or cylindro-toroidal crew primary work/living area rotated for
artificial gravity while under way would allow us to virtually 'drive' any
where in the local system.  Large enough to have self contained food
raising areas, and enough nuclear fuel for 5 or six years, it could be
almost self sufficient during that time;  especially if it were fitted with a
collector for interplanetary free hydrogen to use as reaction mass.  Be
nice if its engines would be able to lift it against one earth gravitational
unit, but the 'environmentalist' Luddites among we Americans would not
let that happen here.  The Russians have a little different take on the
value of progress and scientific achievement and are probably willing to
make certain sacrifices in the name of survival of us as a sustainable
race on this planet.
    With its engines in long nacelles, shielded and separated from the
rest of the ship by short hollow struts (maintenance access), the ship
may even look a little like something one might see on television,
but we probably won't see any fellow travelers out there.  Duty will be
like an isolated station, and crew will have to be chosen accordingly.

Standing Bear
rockcast earthlink.net

ps..........I worked on the moon program as well, testing modules for the
Apollo capsule for reliability.  Little company in St. Petersburg, Florida
now known as 'E-Systems'.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  6 17:15:00 2002
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From: GESREBSPAR aol.com
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Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 20:11:43 EDT
Subject: Mars trip
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Standing Bear- Thanks for reply- I do hope the World can get together and make
                       it so.   I do believe we should orbit (2) two supply 
ships around
                       Mars before we leave Earth. I also think we should 
send (10) 
                        men in two separate but equally qualified ships.  
both ships capable
                         of sending  3 troops to surface, and back. Leaving 2 
men in each
                          ship in orbit. Having 2 ships gives each one 
something to
                         interact with. I do believe your power system sounds 
good,
                         thanks- Ges.

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Standing Bear- Thanks for reply- I do hope the World can get together and make
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;it so. &nbsp;&nbsp;I do believe we should orbit (2) two supply ships around
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Mars before we leave Earth. I also think we should send (10) 
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;men in two separate but equally qualified ships. &nbsp;both ships capable
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;of sending &nbsp;3 troops to surface, and back. Leaving 2 men in each
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;ship in orbit. Having 2 ships gives each one something to
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;interact with. I do believe your power system sounds good,
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;thanks- Ges.</FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  6 20:37:52 2002
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Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 20:35:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: The World goes to Mars.
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--- GESREBSPAR aol.com wrote:
> To All - The Russians have proposed a world mission to Mars. Being A
> former employee of the moon mission  in the 60'S and 70'S I am
> elated that they have proposed this endeavor, regardless of the cost.
> I just hope I live long enough to see it happen.I pledge
> my tax dollars, how about you. thanks GES.
> 

What happend to project "Phobos" of 6 or 7 years ago?

Any way.  I think before we can participate we need to weed out the
idiots...  No more software bugs and numbersystem booboos...


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
http://sbc.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  6 20:50:02 2002
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Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 17:49:16 -1000
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <rick highsurf.com>
Subject: Re: The World goes to Mars.
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At 5:27 PM -0400 7/6/02, Standing Bear disturbed the aether with these emanations:
>The Russians have a little different take on the
>value of progress and scientific achievement and are probably willing to
>make certain sacrifices in the name of survival of us as a sustainable
>race on this planet.

... like dumping their nuclear waste in the sea north of Russia for years and years? Good survival tactic! 

Actually I'm rather hostile to flying reactors myself, NIMBY anyway. Maybe yours? (When it comes to this sort of thing, it's ALL in our own back yard.)

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

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From: "xplorer" <xplorer indo.net.id>
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Subject: RE: Mars trip
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 11:16:21 +0700
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Glad to hear you have chosen
10 military homosexuals for the Mars mission.

I was fretting about how they were planning
 to divvy up the sex ratio, and
 the thought of sexually frustrated males
 fighting over the token female had me worried.

Also, the lack of military troops on a Mars mission
 had me feeling a tad insecure.

An even better thought would be if the ships had
 different flags to plant to illustrate how pompous
 we can be and how divided we are.
  -----Original Message-----
  From: GESREBSPAR aol.com [mailto:GESREBSPAR@aol.com]
  Sent: Sunday, 2002 July 07 07:12
  To: vortex-l eskimo.com
  Subject: Mars trip


  Standing Bear- Thanks for reply- I do hope the World can get together and
make
                        it so.   I do believe we should orbit (2) two supply
ships around
                        Mars before we leave Earth. I also think we should
send (10)
                         men in two separate but equally qualified ships.
both ships capable
                          of sending  3 troops to surface, and back. Leaving
2 men in each
                           ship in orbit. Having 2 ships gives each one
something to
                          interact with. I do believe your power system
sounds good,
                          thanks- Ges.

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000590804-07072002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Glad=20
to hear you have chosen </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000590804-07072002></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D000590804-07072002><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>10 military homosexuals for the =
Mars=20
mission.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000590804-07072002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000590804-07072002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I was=20
fretting about how they were planning</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000590804-07072002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>&nbsp;to divvy up the sex ratio, and</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000590804-07072002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>&nbsp;the thought of sexually frustrated =
males</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000590804-07072002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>&nbsp;fighting over the token female had me =
worried.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000590804-07072002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000590804-07072002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Also,&nbsp;the lack of military&nbsp;troops on a Mars=20
mission</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000590804-07072002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>&nbsp;had me feeling a tad insecure.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000590804-07072002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000590804-07072002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>An=20
even better thought would be if the ships had</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000590804-07072002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>&nbsp;different flags to plant to illustrate how=20
pompous</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000590804-07072002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>&nbsp;we can be and how divided we are.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> GESREBSPAR aol.com =

  [mailto:GESREBSPAR aol.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, 2002 July 07=20
  07:12<BR><B>To:</B> vortex-l eskimo.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Mars=20
  trip<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT =
size=3D2>Standing=20
  Bear- Thanks for reply- I do hope the World can get together and make=20
  =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;it=20
  so. &nbsp;&nbsp;I do believe we should orbit (2) two supply ships =
around=20
  =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Mars=20
  before we leave Earth. I also think we should send (10)=20
  =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;men =

  in two separate but equally qualified ships. &nbsp;both ships capable=20
  =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;of=20
  sending &nbsp;3 troops to surface, and back. Leaving 2 men in each=20
  =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;ship=20
  in orbit. Having 2 ships gives each one something to=20
  =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;interact=20
  with. I do believe your power system sounds good,=20
  =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;thanks-=20
  Ges.</FONT> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul  6 22:00:04 2002
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
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Subject: Re: The World goes to Mars.
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 00:57:46 -0400
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On Saturday 06 July 2002 23:49, Rick Monteverde wrote:
> At 5:27 PM -0400 7/6/02, Standing Bear disturbed the aether with these 
emanations:
> >The Russians have a little different take on the
> >value of progress and scientific achievement and are probably willing to
> >make certain sacrifices in the name of survival of us as a sustainable
> >race on this planet.
>
> ... like dumping their nuclear waste in the sea north of Russia for years
> and years? Good survival tactic!
>
> Actually I'm rather hostile to flying reactors myself, NIMBY anyway. Maybe
> yours? (When it comes to this sort of thing, it's ALL in our own back
> yard.)
>
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI

   Rather its not going to be a question of 'reactors' in space.  Rather a 
very
large one there already.  Been there for aeons old boy!  Its called the
sun!  Ambient radiation from solar and other sources will easily best
any leakage any well made reactor we make as far as any threat to us.
   Certainly space is not a really safe place for man, being a hard vacuum
populated by stray alpha and beta particles and cosmic rays that bleach
your bones and rot your spleen......but then some of us have that in
abundance.  Then there is the lack of gravity that atrophies our muscles
and decalcifies our bones.  In a chemical ship, travel times would be
orders of magnitude longer, course corrections would be almost out
of the question if anything unplanned occured, and on board expenditures
of energy would be severely rationed, limiting spinning the ship to generate 
gravity (solar antennas have that nasty habit of null output if not pointed 
at the sources).
   If we as a race want to survive the coming resource shortages of critical
metals, we will have to get them from somewhere.  I fear that this will 
entail command decisions.   The last cold war saw tactics of fear propaganda
initiated by all sides that generated irrational movements that have now
taken on lives of there own.  To the extent that these latter day Luddites
impede progress and endanger the human race as a whole, they may
have to be faced and dealt with, hopefully in not too draconian a manner
but still sufficient to eliminate their effective influence in matters 
concerning the maintainability of humanity.  If our democracies cannot deal
with these problems, the coming recessions will replace them with new
governments with neither compunction nor mercy.  By that time, however,
so many millions will have died that blame will have to be placed some
where, and that blame will fall on todays environmentalists who fiddled
while our survivability burned.
    Space is dangerous.    We will lose people.   Many people!  We will
still have to go.  The Chinese are already working to go to Mars, perhaps
to claim it for their own.  They certainly will not worry about a 
nucleophobe in another country.  O yes they retracted their statement,
but those folks are not known for half measures, and have often hidden
their agendas.  Having made their statements, I for one do not believe
their later denials.   They KNOW that Mars can be terraformed in some
ways to support colonies.  They ARE going to try.   The window is open
now.  If we do not use it, and soon, we may find it closed when we
finally take care of our problems enough to be able to practically make
the attempt.

Enough rant
Standing Bear

ps.............I wouldn't mind riding in the ships that I have suggested that
we build.  They would be the safest and healthiest for man that we would
know how to construct.  Just one solar plume would contain quadrillions
of times the 'radiations' that that ship would exhaust. 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  7 06:35:57 2002
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From: Josef Karthauser <joe tao.org.uk>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Stirling Segway
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On Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 04:17:58PM -0400, Terry Blanton wrote:

> The Stirling is not at all about sparks and small explosions, the 
> hallmark of the internal combustion engine. It is, instead, about using 
> external heat to drive internal pistons, creating clean, quiet power for 
> almost unlimited applications.

Would it possible to couple a serling engine to a dynamo and produce
electicity from hot water created from solar collectors?

Joe (who's just investing in solar collectors).

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  7 13:27:09 2002
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From: Standing Bear <rockcast net-link.net>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Mars trip
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 16:25:03 -0400
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On Sunday 07 July 2002 00:16, xplorer wrote:
> Glad to hear you have chosen
> 10 military homosexuals for the Mars mission.
>
> I was fretting about how they were planning
>  to divvy up the sex ratio, and
>  the thought of sexually frustrated males
>  fighting over the token female had me worried.
>
> Also, the lack of military troops on a Mars mission
>  had me feeling a tad insecure.
>
> An even better thought would be if the ships had
>  different flags to plant to illustrate how pompous
>  we can be and how divided we are.
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: GESREBSPAR aol.com [mailto:GESREBSPAR@aol.com]
>   Sent: Sunday, 2002 July 07 07:12
>   To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>   Subject: Mars trip
>
>
>   Standing Bear- Thanks for reply- I do hope the World can get together and
> make
>                         it so.   I do believe we should orbit (2) two
> supply ships around
>                         Mars before we leave Earth. I also think we should
> send (10)
>                          men in two separate but equally qualified ships.
> both ships capable
>                           of sending  3 troops to surface, and back.
> Leaving 2 men in each
>                            ship in orbit. Having 2 ships gives each one
> something to
>                           interact with. I do believe your power system
> sounds good,
>                           thanks- Ges.

Xplorers point is well taken.  Anything to keep the crew from killing
each other on a long voyage.   I had not considered sex as a factor,
but it really is a kind of survival factor.  If you had a whole crew of
homos, however, you could still have fights.  Look at prisons, where
the state authorities almost enforce homosexuality in the United States
by denying conjugal visits.  Also, fights, brought on by trivial issues
that arise among bored frustrated people, are often more violent when
among homosexuals.  I am not being homophobic, just stating facts.
The idea of the gentle,  'ineffectual' homosexual who 'would'nt harm
a fly' is just a fantasy.  Many of our most violent criminals, like
Jeffrey 'Cannibal' Dahmer, have been such.  Also some of our most
able artists, like Tchschaikovskiy, and Oscar Wilde.  It seems human
extremes of intellect or skill many times also come with other extremes
as well.  I would be better to have a group of well rounded straight
or AC/DC swingers that could ALL get along and take partner changes
in stride.  Remember, like Sara Jane Moore, the loner who tried to 
assassinate Ronald Reagan, it is the odd man or woman out that becomes
a menace to the others.  There has got to be someone for everybody
on such a trip!

Standing Bear
ps.............all you 'moralists',  in the words of the Captain on the new
series 'Enterprise' (paraphrased)....."Take your idealistic and 
anti-humanistic 'morals' and bury them!".   All the above would not
really apply to missions of less than 6 months.  After that, watch out.
You would also have to watch out for 'Alpha' type personalities
whose pushiness would incite conflict.   These crews would be
families more than anything else.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  7 17:09:09 2002
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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: ?Misnomer?New word? Optical superconductor? Rigid elastic
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	Dear vo.,

	What is an Optical Superconductor supposed to be???

					J
	electromagnetic battery?
	liquid vapor
	

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  7 18:42:20 2002
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Subject: RE: Charge transfer
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Fred Writes:

>Repeat the meter test, Keith.

Why, you didn't like my results the first time *grin*????

The input impedence of my voltmeter is pretty low, it's
a BK391 and good to 10 Meg. That electrometer circuit from Richard is
substantially better, at 10 teraohms. What does it take to
get there with say 10KV range?????

I have no doubt driving around can produce charge seperation,
having been shocked several times doing same.

K.
'Zap.


-----Original Message-----
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:fjsparber earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 3:55 AM
To: knagel gis.net; vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Charge transfer



----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <michael.foster@excite.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 10:05 PM
Subject: RE: Charge transfer

Keith wrote:


> Hi Michael.
>
> I looked around a bit, and found a 5 inch x 5 inch x 1/4 inch
> slab of teflon. Passed the arm hair test with flying colors, even
> at midday in this oh-so humid july air. I don't have a commercial
> electrometer
> handy, but I did build this circuit awhile back which came courtesy
> of Richard Hull.
>
> http://www.amasci.com/electrom/sas51p1.html

This effect is reminescent of the posts I made last year regarding the
effect of
waving the ~ meter long test leads of a DVM hooked to a 10 megohm or higher
resistor
with the DVM set on the 300 mv range and observing an "induced voltage" or
driving
around the countyside with the setup laying on the car seat and observing a
voltage
Only When The Vehicle was Accelerated or Decelerated.

After careful experiments made with the meter and leads duct-taped to a 6
foot long
broom handle (as suggested by Frank Stenger) which showed No Effect,when the
apparatus
was waved vigorously around, the conclusion is that there is ample static
electricity
accumulated on ones
person or clothing, or on the car seat, to cause the anomalous
triboelectric-electrostatic effect.

IOW, whether it's regular electrons or Light Leptons, Static Electricty
Pervades the
Environment.

Also, stripping down to your birthday suit (and taking a cold shower)
removes enough
Static Electricity to cause the Effect to Disappear.  :-)

>
> ( look about 1/2 way down the page. And someone tell Bill Beaty
> that the links in the document are bad ).
>
> Sadly, this circuit is limited to about +/- 7 volts. A simple
> divider is out of the question, although I think I
> have some resistors enclosed in glass shells that
> might be servicable.
>
> Any suggestions on the electrometer, other than spending
> 10 grand on a Keithley? I'm not really set up to do
> this kind of stuff.

Repeat the meter test, Keith.

There have been explosions on oil tankers caused by the buildup of static
electricty
when the empty tanks were being hosed down.

Regards,   Frederick
>
> K.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Foster [mailto:michael.foster excite.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 2:04 PM
> To: vortex-l eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Charge transfer
>
>
>
> Keith Nagel wrote:
>
> > A more prosaic explaination might be impurities in the oil
> > allowing conduction. Considering the tiny currents involved,
> > and the high voltages, couldn't trace impurities be responsible
> > for charge transfer? Any scheme involving the polar molecules
> > would seem to me to fail when considering DC.
>
> Yes, it's true, high resistance conductivity provided by impurities in the
> linseed oil might be the explanation in Doug's experiment. Linseed oil,
> after all, is not a pure chemical substance. That's why I suggested it
might
> be better to use mineral oil, especially the type used in capacitors.
>
> However, I have performed a ludicrously simple experiment that would seem
to
> defy explanation by conventional wisdom. It's the big old thick slab of
> teflon experiment. To me, this is the pièce de résistance concerning this
> phenomenon.
>
> I was wandering around at C & H sales in Pasedena, a marvelous surplus
> store, a veritable technogeek heaven. I noticed they had some various
sizes
> and shapes of teflon for sale. The one that caught my eye was 1 1/4 inch
> thick by 1 1/2 feet square. Naturally, I rubbed it with my forearm to see
if
> it was really teflon and not HDPE. Big charge, with arm hair standing
> straight up. The thing cost me an arm (hair and all) and a leg, but I had
to
> have it.
>
> I took it home and cleaned it up. Teflon meets a number of extreme
> requirements. For one thing, it's almost impossible not to charge this
stuff
> frictionally. It also has a low dielectric constant and a very high
> breakdown voltage, not to mention a very low charge dissipation factor,
all
> in all, a great insulator. Great stuff for the purpose. Here is the
> experiment:
>
> Rub a small area in the middle of the teflon slab with anything, your hand
> will do fine. A nice high voltage negative charge will result. If you have
> an electrostatic voltmeter, measure the voltage on both the surface you
> rubbed and the opposite surface. There will be almost no difference, a few
> tens of thousands of volts on each surface, but confined to the area you
> rubbed. Possibly, the e-field on the rubbed surface is detected from both
> sides, no matter.
>
> Now, remove the charge from the teflon slab with something, a grounded
> multi-pointed metal comb, a carbon fiber brush or what have you. But do
this
> from the side that was not rubbed. You now measure the voltages on both
> sides and find that they are subtantially reduced, perhaps a few hundred
> volts. You can do this in sequence any number of times, or you can do it
> continuously so that the charge is constantly created on one side and
> removed from the other. How can this be?
>
> This might be explained by simple conductivity through a high resistance.
> But if this is true, why doesn't the charge migrate laterally at the same
> rate? It doesn't. It pretty much stays in the same area it in which it was
> created.
>
> Can anyone on this list explain this to me? Is there some some simple
> principle I have overlooked or don't know about?
>
> M.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sun Jul  7 20:48:25 2002
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: ?Misnomer?New word? Optical superconductor? Rigid elastic
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A substance that carries light with no transmission loss.
--- John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu> wrote:
> 
> 	Dear vo.,
> 
> 	What is an Optical Superconductor supposed to be???
> 
> 					J
> 	electromagnetic battery?
> 	liquid vapor
> 	
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  8 08:03:10 2002
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Subject: Iwamura paper available
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[Anyone can register at : JJAP ONLINE, jjap.ipap.jp, to download this.]


Jpn. J. Appl. Phys. Vol. 41 (2002) 4642-4650
Part 1, No. 7A, 15 July 2002
DOI : 10.1143/JJAP.41.4642

Elemental Analysis of Pd Complexes: Effects of D2 Gas Permeation
Yasuhiro Iwamura*, Mitsuru Sakano and Takehiko Itoh

Advanced Technology Research Center, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd., 
1-8-1 Sachiura, Kanazawa-ku, Yokohama 236-8515, Japan

(Received July 18, 2001; revised manuscript received February 1, 2002; 
accepted for publication April 9, 2002)

Abstract:

Elemental analysis of Pd complexes, which consist of a thin Pd layer, 
alternating CaO and Pd layers and bulk Pd, is described, after subjecting 
the Pd complexes to D2 gas permeation. The Pd complex was located in a 
vacuum chamber and the elemental analysis was performed using an X-ray 
photoelectron spectroscopy (XPS) apparatus mounted on the chamber. When Cs 
was added on the surface of a Pd complex, Pr emerged on the surface while 
Cs decreased after the Pd complex was subjected to D2 gas permeation at 343 
K and 1 atm for about one week. In the case of adding Sr on the surface, Mo 
emerged on the surface while the added Sr decreased after D2 permeation for 
about two weeks. All the phenomena were reproduced qualitatively. The 
isotopic composition of the detected Mo exhibited characteristics 
indicating an isotopic abundance of Sr rather than the natural abundance of 
Mo.

Keywords:

D2 gas, permeation, Pd, Pd complex, thin film, Cs, Pr, Sr, Mo, isotopic 
composition, X-ray photoelectron spectroscopy 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  8 08:25:43 2002
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This paper is thrilling! It is 9 pages long. It has more detail than any 
previous paper published by Iwamura et al. People interested in cold fusion 
MUST read this.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  8 13:00:33 2002
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Below is an interesting message about an old  forgotten technique for
heating up iron objects prior to forging.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 04:26:39 -0700
From: arthur <arthurcollie hotmail.com>
To: billb eskimo.com
Subject: Comments from billb amform

--- comments ---
LNER

As an elderly engineer I can remember what many have forgotten. In the
early part of this centuary there was a Blcksmith's process called the
"Electrolytic Forge" for heating iron prparatory to forging by hammering
on an anvil.

A large metal open to tank about 4 feet cube as connected ot a Dynamo
capable of genersating hundres of amps at up to 40 volts (as I remember)
An insulated brass rail round the top of the tank was connected to the
other terminal of the dynamo.

The blacksmith picked up the bar of iron to be heated in tongs anand
lowere the end inthe tank and made contact with the brass rail.
Reasuulting ain a very high current densith on the metal bar. The
polarithy being arranged so that hydrogen was generated at the suface of
the work piece which rpidly reached forging temperature or even white heat
under the electroyte. The polarity being arranged so that hydrogen was
produced at the iron so the heated iron was scale free making "blacksmiths
welds" easier and more reliable.

The process is illustrated in the early edition of Rankins text book on
electical engineering. According to my Granfather a marine engineer and
whose text book it was, the process was abandoned as too dangerous and
unreliable and subsequent editions of the textbook which I have examined
in the IEE library make no mention of the system.

I have often wondered if this process also generated its heat by cold
fusion on occasion and this may affected reliability. The obvious dangers
could easily have been overcome by a little technology.

What is striking is that area of the anode must have been nearly 1000 time
greater than the cathode and that the amount of hydrgen produced in the
plasm had to be great enough to overcome the liquid pressure so preventing
the elctrolyte from cooling the iron.

Would in time the concentration of D2 have increased in tank furthe
changing the parameters?

The hot iron was withdrawn from the bath while still arcing so there must
have beeen an alarming flare but the open blacksmiths shops of the time
were terrifying places anway.


I would be interested in you comments.

Regards

Arthur Collie

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On Sun, 7 Jul 2002, Keith Nagel wrote:
>
> I have no doubt driving around can produce charge seperation,
> having been shocked several times doing same.

Or is that a car-seat generator effect?

  http://www.jci.co.uk/Carseats2.html


> > Sadly, this circuit is limited to about +/- 7 volts. A simple
> > divider is out of the question, although I think I
> > have some resistors enclosed in glass shells that
> > might be servicable.

You can use a capacitive voltage divider, with a large-value cap connected
across the input, then a small-value, high-voltage cap connected in series
with the test lead (other test lead goes to ground.)  This works, although
you need to use very low-leakage capacitors, and you have to set up a
"discharge switch" which briefly shorts out both capacitors before you
make a measurement.

> > Any suggestions on the electrometer, other than spending
> > 10 grand on a Keithley? I'm not really set up to do
> > this kind of stuff.

I've found several Simco electrometers on eBay, about once per month.
They call them "electrostatic locators", and they usually sell for under
$50.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  8 18:53:33 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Charge transfer
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 22:04:15 -0400
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Hi Bill.

Thanks for the ebay suggestion, I see the prices
are a little more expensive recently but still reasonable.

I was afraid that if I used a capacitive divider, that I'd
not be able to measure static charge accurately. I suppose
the HV cap would want to be 10-100 times smaller than the
thing I'm trying to measure, which would put it in the 1 to 10 pf
range for me. Perhaps a reed switch for the discharge circuit?

I was under the impression that this hazard existed for
fueling cars as well, and the service station attendant
doesn't normally get out of your car, unless he's robbing
you (grin). That the car is insulated by the rubber
tires would probably make it several 100pfs. 

K.  

-----Original Message-----
From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com]
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 7:59 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Charge transfer


On Sun, 7 Jul 2002, Keith Nagel wrote:
>
> I have no doubt driving around can produce charge seperation,
> having been shocked several times doing same.

Or is that a car-seat generator effect?

  http://www.jci.co.uk/Carseats2.html


> > Sadly, this circuit is limited to about +/- 7 volts. A simple
> > divider is out of the question, although I think I
> > have some resistors enclosed in glass shells that
> > might be servicable.

You can use a capacitive voltage divider, with a large-value cap connected
across the input, then a small-value, high-voltage cap connected in series
with the test lead (other test lead goes to ground.)  This works, although
you need to use very low-leakage capacitors, and you have to set up a
"discharge switch" which briefly shorts out both capacitors before you
make a measurement.

> > Any suggestions on the electrometer, other than spending
> > 10 grand on a Keithley? I'm not really set up to do
> > this kind of stuff.

I've found several Simco electrometers on eBay, about once per month.
They call them "electrostatic locators", and they usually sell for under
$50.


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  8 21:41:03 2002
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From: Keasy aol.com
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Subject: re:Charge Transfer (new)
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--part1_17b.ae272cc.2a5bc159_boundary
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    Perhaps you charge transfer experts can shed a little light on a result I 
am getting that is, I think related.

   I have an exceedingly simple circuit: a 100v dc source in series with a 20 
megohm resistor, is series with a switch, in series with a 100 ohm resistor.  
I am measuring (oscilloscope) the current with a high frequency response 
current probe and the voltage across the 100 ohm resistor.  The voltage and 
resistor values are accurate.

   When I CLOSE the switch I see a 300 mA pulse a few nanoseconds long and a 
30 volt pulse, same shape and duration (approximately) across the 100 ohm 
resistor.  This again indicates 300 mA.   My question is  -----  why?  The dc 
current is only in the 5 microamp range.

    A simple explanation will be appreciated.    Thanks,       Ken

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Perhaps you charge transfer experts can shed a little light on a result I am getting that is, I think related.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; I have an exceedingly simple circuit: a 100v dc source in series with a 20 megohm resistor, is series with a switch, in series with a 100 ohm resistor.&nbsp; I am measuring (oscilloscope) the current with a high frequency response current probe and the voltage across the 100 ohm resistor.&nbsp; The voltage and resistor values are accurate.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; When I CLOSE the switch I see a 300 mA pulse a few nanoseconds long and a 30 volt pulse, same shape and duration (approximately) across the 100 ohm resistor.&nbsp; This again indicates 300 mA.&nbsp;&nbsp; My question is&nbsp; -----&nbsp; why?&nbsp; The dc current is only in the 5 microamp range.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A simple explanation will be appreciated.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ken</FONT></HTML>

--part1_17b.ae272cc.2a5bc159_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  8 21:42:18 2002
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From: "xplorer" <xplorer indo.net.id>
To: "Vortex-L Eskimo. Com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: the testbed
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:43:29 +0700
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This has taken a lot longer to construct
 than I ever planned

In the last three months,
 I have been puut to the limits,
 but I hope we finally have it finished this month.

enjoy
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------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C2273D.D8886160--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  8 21:42:19 2002
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From: "xplorer" <xplorer indo.net.id>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: LENR in 1900 blacksmith's shops?
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:37:31 +0700
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As this happened regularly during my own experiments,
 I don't believe the white heat indicates LENR,
 but I do wonder if the old smithy shops used
 salt in their "Electrolytic Forge", or if they used
 something different to aid the conductivity.
The heated steel can get to temperatures
 where it can sublimate, but this appears to rely
 mostly on the nature of the insulating curtain
 of steam surrounding the electrode.
I always wated to try this with the pressure that
 would come with depth, whereby the curtain would be minimized.


-----Original Message-----
From: William Beaty [mailto:billb eskimo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 2002 July 09 02:54
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: LENR in 1900 blacksmith's shops?




Below is an interesting message about an old  forgotten technique for
heating up iron objects prior to forging.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 04:26:39 -0700
From: arthur <arthurcollie hotmail.com>
To: billb eskimo.com
Subject: Comments from billb amform

--- comments ---
LNER

As an elderly engineer I can remember what many have forgotten. In the
early part of this centuary there was a Blcksmith's process called the
"Electrolytic Forge" for heating iron prparatory to forging by hammering
on an anvil.

A large metal open to tank about 4 feet cube as connected ot a Dynamo
capable of genersating hundres of amps at up to 40 volts (as I remember)
An insulated brass rail round the top of the tank was connected to the
other terminal of the dynamo.

The blacksmith picked up the bar of iron to be heated in tongs anand
lowere the end inthe tank and made contact with the brass rail.
Reasuulting ain a very high current densith on the metal bar. The
polarithy being arranged so that hydrogen was generated at the suface of
the work piece which rpidly reached forging temperature or even white heat
under the electroyte. The polarity being arranged so that hydrogen was
produced at the iron so the heated iron was scale free making "blacksmiths
welds" easier and more reliable.

The process is illustrated in the early edition of Rankins text book on
electical engineering. According to my Granfather a marine engineer and
whose text book it was, the process was abandoned as too dangerous and
unreliable and subsequent editions of the textbook which I have examined
in the IEE library make no mention of the system.

I have often wondered if this process also generated its heat by cold
fusion on occasion and this may affected reliability. The obvious dangers
could easily have been overcome by a little technology.

What is striking is that area of the anode must have been nearly 1000 time
greater than the cathode and that the amount of hydrgen produced in the
plasm had to be great enough to overcome the liquid pressure so preventing
the elctrolyte from cooling the iron.

Would in time the concentration of D2 have increased in tank furthe
changing the parameters?

The hot iron was withdrawn from the bath while still arcing so there must
have beeen an alarming flare but the open blacksmiths shops of the time
were terrifying places anway.


I would be interested in you comments.

Regards

Arthur Collie


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  8 22:14:35 2002
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Charge Transfer (new)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 01:16:07 -0400
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Hi.

The likely cause is the switch capacity + probe capacity.
That's discharging into the 100 ohm resistor, then the
DC source follows.

I think you are correct, that it is related to the static
experiments we've been discussing. It's opposite sides of the same coin.

K.


-----Original Message-----
From: Keasy aol.com [mailto:Keasy@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 12:32 AM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: re:Charge Transfer (new)


    Perhaps you charge transfer experts can shed a little light on a result
I am getting that is, I think related.

   I have an exceedingly simple circuit: a 100v dc source in series with a
20 megohm resistor, is series with a switch, in series with a 100 ohm
resistor.  I am measuring (oscilloscope) the current with a high frequency
response current probe and the voltage across the 100 ohm resistor.  The
voltage and resistor values are accurate.

   When I CLOSE the switch I see a 300 mA pulse a few nanoseconds long and a
30 volt pulse, same shape and duration (approximately) across the 100 ohm
resistor.  This again indicates 300 mA.   My question is  -----  why?  The
dc current is only in the 5 microamp range.

    A simple explanation will be appreciated.    Thanks,       Ken

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul  8 22:16:30 2002
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Subject: RE: the testbed
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 01:26:14 -0400
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Hi.

Looks pretty cool, like the flying sub from that old
Lloyd Bridges submarine series. What the heck is it?

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: xplorer [mailto:xplorer indo.net.id]
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 12:43 AM
To: Vortex-L Eskimo. Com
Subject: the testbed


This has taken a lot longer to construct
 than I ever planned

In the last three months,
 I have been puut to the limits,
 but I hope we finally have it finished this month.

enjoy

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  9 02:13:19 2002
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Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 04:10:19 -0500
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Thank you for posting the URL Jed. I visited it and signed up. 
However when I input the Author's name, Yasuhiro Iwamura, I got only 
one hit,which was an article done in 1997. I also input isotopic and 
ratios and got no hits.

Those of you who have been following my posts will recall my interest 
in the subject. IMHO, a isotopic spectrum with a high percentage of 
isotopes which normally occur in low percentages, is proof of either 
LENR's or someone with nothing better to spend their time and money 
on then creating artifacts to confuse natural philosophers like 
myself.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  9 02:15:08 2002
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Thomas Malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: LENR in 1900 blacksmith's shops?
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Arthur Collie posted

>Below is an interesting message about an old  forgotten technique for
>heating up iron objects prior to forging.
>
>I would be interested in you comments.

Very interesting post, I have trouble visualizing how this works. 
Were does the hydrogen come from? How big was the iron bar, how many 
amps went through it? Was there some reason to believe that part of 
the heat in the iron was due to an LENR? What is the reaction you 
propose?



-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  9 05:46:10 2002
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Tom said:



> Thank you for posting the URL Jed. I visited it and signed up.
> However when I input the Author's name, Yasuhiro Iwamura, I got only
> one hit,which was an article done in 1997. I also input isotopic and
> ratios and got no hits.
>
> Those of you who have been following my posts will recall my interest
> in the subject. IMHO, a isotopic spectrum with a high percentage of
> isotopes which normally occur in low percentages, is proof of either
> LENR's or someone with nothing better to spend their time and money
> on then creating artifacts to confuse natural philosophers like
> myself.

If you complete the registration process, then you go to the current issue
of the Japanese Journal of Applied Physics and work your way down the index,
using the data in Jed's post. You will find it, with a pdf option. It has
and expanded version of the text that Jed has made available from him to
those who ask for it.

The killer in this paper is the transmutation of cesium to praseodymium,
each having only one isotope. Pr is a rare earth element, no likely to be in
anybody's contamination soup, and the evidence is directly for reducing the
population of cesium atoms and replacing them with Pr atoms. Not much wiggle
room there.

Mike Carrell

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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: LENR in 1900 blacksmith's shops?
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--- xplorer <xplorer indo.net.id> wrote:
> 
> As this happened regularly during my own experiments,
>  I don't believe the white heat indicates LENR,
>  but I do wonder if the old smithy shops used
>  salt in their "Electrolytic Forge", or if they used
>  something different to aid the conductivity.
> The heated steel can get to temperatures
>  where it can sublimate, but this appears to rely
>  mostly on the nature of the insulating curtain
>  of steam surrounding the electrode.
> I always wated to try this with the pressure that
>  would come with depth, whereby the curtain would be minimized.
> 

There is a lab near Albuquerque where they are attempting fusion in a
HUGE water tank.  100 mtr debth the water is pretty stiff.  

I think they are using a capacitive discharge though.

I always likened it to trying to strike a match in a gas tank. :-)



=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  9 07:09:56 2002
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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: LENR in 1900 blacksmith's shops?
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--- Thomas Malloy &lt;temalloy metro.lakes.com&gt; wrote:
&gt; Arthur Collie posted
&gt; 
&gt; &gt;Below is an interesting message about an old  forgotten
technique for
&gt; &gt;heating up iron objects prior to forging.
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;I would be interested in you comments.
&gt; 
&gt; Very interesting post, 
 
I agree..

&gt; I have trouble visualizing how this works.

Maybe this 'my visulization' can help
 
&gt; Were does the hydrogen come from? 

The bar is placed into this device for heating.  A safe assumption is
that it goes into the solution cold.  Once the current begins to flow H2
will begin to form on the bar due to electrolysis.  I think if the
current is enough it will soon form an insulating shell around the bar.
Then as the conducting surface is reduced to nothing an ark will begin.  

It is the arc that likely does the heating here.  I imagine that a as
mentioned a rather fearful plasma cloud would flare out at that time and
ignite as it reached the O2 rich surface air causing a rather demon like
roaring flame. 

This visualization is based entirely on the article

&gt; How big was the iron bar, how many 
&gt; amps went through it? 

I imagine that the iron bar was not that big.  When you start forging
iron with anvil and hammer you quickly find out that iron is heavy.  A
bar say 2ft long and a couple inches in diameter can be quite unwieldily
for the blacksmith.

&gt; Was there some reason to believe that part of 
&gt; the heat in the iron was due to an LENR? What is the reaction you 
&gt; propose?

No except that the process suggests a possibility.  

Cheers

=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  9 07:19:15 2002
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Subject: Re: Iwamura paper available
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Thomas Malloy wrote:

>Thank you for posting the URL Jed. I visited it and signed up. However 
>when I input the Author's name, Yasuhiro Iwamura, I got only one hit,which 
>was an article done in 1997. I also input isotopic and ratios and got no hits.

I have had trouble searching by name at this site. Mizuno's wife, Yukiko 
Mizuno, has a paper in a recent issue, but I cannot find it. The title 
is  "Photon Emission from Ice during Fracture." (Perhaps this is in the 
Japanese edition, come to think of it.)

Try searching for the Iwamura paper by title:

Elemental Analysis of Pd Complexes . . .

Be sure you are looking at the July 2002 issue. I did it the easy way. I 
tuned into that page and did a Ctrl-F Internet Explorer search.

- Jed

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Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 11:41:51 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Taubes champions controversial science
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The Sunday New York Times magazine features a long article by Taubes 
defending controversial science, of all things. See:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/07FAT.html

The title is "What if It's All Been a Big Fat Lie?" about dieting. He 
thinks carbohydrates cause obesity, and he supports the Atkins diet. The 
first paragraph is telling:

"If the members of the American medical establishment were to have a 
collective find-yourself-standing-naked-in-Times-Square-type nightmare, 
this might be it. They spend 30 years ridiculing Robert Atkins, author of 
the phenomenally-best-selling 'Dr. Atkins' Diet Revolution' and 'Dr. 
Atkins' New Diet Revolution,' accusing the Manhattan doctor of quackery and 
fraud, only to discover that the unrepentant Atkins was right all along. Or 
maybe it's this: they find that their very own dietary recommendations -- 
eat less fat and more carbohydrates -- are the cause of the rampaging 
epidemic of obesity in America. Or, just possibly this: they find out both 
of the above are true."

This describes Taubes' own worst nightmare, that someday his statements 
about cold fusion will be revealed for what they are. He cites anthropology 
texts, but I doubt he has read any. He does not seem to read much. He 
claimed that "Bad Science" was based on "interviews" with people whose 
names he misspelled, and he did not list any actual publications.

The original Atkins diet with lean meat is well known to anthropologists 
studying primitive diets in stressed conditions. It does indeed make you 
thinner. In fact, after about three weeks you die of severe diarrhea and 
starvation. That is why Australian Aborigine hunters used to check the tail 
of a slaughtered kangaroo and throw away the whole animal if there was not 
enough fat, even when their families were starving. In the first world, you 
cannot buy meat as lean as this, but even so the original diet is somewhat 
dangerous. People are omnivores and can survive perfectly well on all-meat 
diets such as Aleut and other tribes traditionally ate. They got enough 
vitamin C and so on, but urban Americans wouldn't like it. (Source: "Good 
to Eat: Riddles of Food and Culture," by Marvin Harris - an excellent book.)

Taubes' hypothesis about the USDA "food pyramid" and carbohydrates is 
wrong, or at least incomplete and deceptive. He ignores a gigantic 
counter-example well known to anthropologists and dietitians. In Japan 
since the mid 1950s people have had enough money to buy any selection of 
food they want, in unlimited quantities. Most still eat traditional 
Japanese fare, which resembles the food pyramid, only more so. 
Traditionally, Japanese people ate enough rice to choke an American, and 
farmers still do. Yet obesity remains rare in Japan.

This is getting off topic, but frankly, this whole issue of diet seems 
simpler to me that people make of it. Just eat less and exercise more and 
you will be thin, guaranteed. It is basic thermodynamics. It does not 
matter much what you eat. I know some very old fashioned American farmers 
who eat gobs of meat and few vegetables. And I know Japanese farmers who 
never eat meat -- they don't like the taste, for reasons Harris describes 
in his book. They eat gobs of rice, fish, and fresh or pickled vegetables. 
Both the Americans and Japanese farmers are rail thin and stronger at age 
70 than I was at age 20. Because they work all the time!

Taubes writes facilely, and gives the impression he knows a lot, but his 
knowledge is paper thin. As he does in "Bad Science," he stumbles and 
betrays himself time and again with statements that make no sense or claims 
that are obviously wrong, with well-known counter examples. I am sure the 
dietitians he spoke with while writing the article were aware of the 
Japanese diet. It is common knowledge, and they know that it supports the 
"food pyramid," but they also know that a person can grow morbidly obese 
eating rice or anything else. Taubes has discovered nothing, and his 
article has no news to people conversant with the subject. (Even I knew 
this much and more, and my only exposure to the subject has been through 
anthropology and books on energy and food.)

Taubes has not backed down from his anti-cold fusion jihad. The article 
describes him: "Gary Taubes is a correspondent for the journal Science and 
author of 'Bad Science: The Short Life and Weird Times of Cold Fusion.'"

- Jed

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From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
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	Comment please:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 12:06:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Ether Sciences <ether.sciences free.fr>,
    Schnurer <herman college.antioch.edu>
Subject: Re: [jlnlabs] Antigravity and the ancient science (Re: Russel anderson)


	Dear ES,

	See notes in text below:


	You write:
	

 " ......The electrovital fluid: everyone can check this: if you take a
neon tube  and you plug one end to the phase of an ordinary electric
plug, put your  hand close to the socket, you will see the neon tube
lightening. This is  because of the electrovital fluid in your hands,
which interacts with  the pulsating current of the phase (your body, and
the electrovital  fluid becoming the mass) and creates high tension in
the tube. The  switching on and off or simply the variation of tension is
able to  extract electricity from the electrovital fluid.  ........" 


	The lamp lights because you are a moderate conducting body
due to you being filled with saline.  Capacitive coupling is the mechanism
whereby a low current AC circuit is completed.
	You will get the SAME effect with an antenna made from any number
of materials.

	It helps to understand AC capacitive coupling processes.
 




On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Ether Sciences wrote:

> Hi Russel and all, from France.
> 
> you don't know me yet, but I am deeply interested in antigravifics and free energy (like many of us here obviously!). You are doing a wonderful work!  I am at the moment waiting for the various electronic components from my electronic supply store to build the high tension generator which plan has been given by saviour on the jlnlabs website. I have now all the needed patents form TT Brown and I think I understand quite well the principle; But one thing is to point out for all the searchers in the lifter field: obviously the push is not ion wind (it has been demonstrated by TT Brown), but a flow of particles which are not condensed into atoms. I mean an extrafluid or hypergaseous substance made of particles. This substance is well known by the occultists as ether 1st,2nd,3rd,4th, the first ether being composed of the first particles of matter (the smallest) called "Anou" by the ancient Indians. Then these particles are condensed into various degrees until the fourth ether, the pre-atomic state. These particles are moving at low speed like gas. The high pressure of this pre-atomic fluid was the origin of the force in Keely's motor. So the lifters act like etheric helicopters, but not ionic, for ions are much much bigger than particles obviously. 
> 
> As everyone can notice in the orient traditions, levitating is something known by Tibetan yogis, and other stories tell us about hypnotised people who levitated. But they were not under high voltage tensions... so there is another aspect to control gravity. Again in the ancient science, the cause was the existence of a new kind of energy flowing in every human being, in the planet and coming also from the Sun. This energy was called in our times Od (Reichenbach), Orgone (Reich), nervous fluid (others), animal magnetism (Mesmer), but the best name should be "electrovital fluid". It has a lot of common points with electricity but it is in fact the archetype, or mother matrix of the ordinary electricity. Then the antigravity was obtained by inverting the polarity of this electrovital fluid in an object so that a repelling effect appeared between the object and the earth. You have a very good analogical phenomenon when you put into your bath a closed bottle full of air: there is a repulsing phenomenon between water and air and the bottle springs out in the air. So the same is possible between air and ether.
> 

> The electrovital fluid: everyone can check this: if you take a neon tube
> and you plug one end to the phase of an ordinary electric plug, put your
> hand close to the socket, you will see the neon tube lightening. This is
> because of the electrovital fluid in your hands, which interacts with
> the pulsating current of the phase (your body, and the electrovital
> fluid becoming the mass) and creates high tension in the tube. The
> switching on and off or simply the variation of tension is able to
> extract electricity from the electrovital fluid.




 Charles von Reichenbach
> in the 19th century used sensitive people to see the light and coloured
> flames of this energy coming from crystals, magnets and human beings.
> The tradition tells us that this energy in the human body comes from an
> energetic center at the base of the spine column. So you can find such
> energy in the human being but also in the mineral kingdom which is known
> to have only this center activated in its etheric substance (sorry for
> this if someone is recalcitrant to oriental knowledge, but all this was
> certainly well known in the ancient times and you can't avoid it to
> understand more deeply all these questions). 
> 


> This electrovital fluid that surrounds us is then more concentrated in some minerals, bodies etc. like magnet and crystal. According to the ancient tradition again, this fluid is a light emanating from the fourth dimension called "astral plane" and the fluid was also called "astral light", the serpent of fire, the great Dragon, and was drawn as a snake by the Egyptians. When filtrating on earth, this light is manifested into a bipolar fluid : Od/Ob, or Orgone/Dor (Reich) which as two effects: one constructive, linked to life, the other one destructive, linked to death.
> 


> So the source of free energy is really from another dimension of the universe, but it passes through this subtle energy which is accumulated by etheric substance (particles not condensed into atoms). It is seen by sensitive people in the dark as light and flames which take a specific colour according to the four directions. When dissociated, this energy gives birth to four elemental forces (conveyed by etheric fluids) and three types of electricity. Just learn how to make the dissociation and you tape free electricity not from the void but from this specific fluid. The source is also coming from the sun, through the sun rays, a new vibration (maybe transversal waves) which ignites the etheric fluid once touched by the rays (in a dark room the sensitive people of Reichenbach see at the end of a wire coming from the outside of the room a flame coloured by each of the colours of the spectrum from a prism touched by the sun outside).
> 
> You will understand more how Hutchison is creating free electricity with his crystal disk between metal discs and also how TT Brown created the energy for his rotating flying disc with small battery-condensers (or should I say dissociators?) (elements 115 and 116 of his "Electrokinetic apparatus"...
> 
> Note that this lightened fluid from a crystal is enormously increased in a vacuum tube, note again that the rotating movement is able to produce the dissociation of the fluid into its four elements and three electricity... one of the secrets of the Searl motor.
> 
> So I believe there are two ways for creating anti-gravity: etheric pressure (using electric asymmetrical concentration of lines of electric forces), and the inversion of polarity of the electrovital fluid - rotating an electric field seems to be a common point between Searl and some parts of TT Brown apparatus.
> 
> All this is the result of 12 years of research making links between the ancient tradition and the works of many searchers in the field of antigravity and free energy.
> 
> Sorry for the long text! I Hope all this will be useful.
> 
> Cedric Dumas.
> 
> Note for Russel: A. Frolov made a replication of the first ring of the Searl motor: 65% weight loss... see at:
> http://alexfrolov.narod.ru/russearl.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Russell Anderson 
>   To: jlnlabs yahoogroups.com 
>   Cc: info betavoltaic.com 
>   Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 11:56 PM
>   Subject: Re: [jlnlabs] formal proposal for Breakthrough Propulsion Consortium
> 
> 
>   Thanks Mike! I am going to have Radio-controlled/internal powered 6-foot, 
>   carbonfibre Beamships (variation III) at the 2003 WRAM show (Westchester 
>   Radio Aero Modelers) in White Plains, NY, and the East Coast Hobby Show in 
>   2003 at Fort Washington PA, the 2003 Toledo Radio/Control Hobby show. I have 
>   built consistently the largest and most energy-efficient artificial gravity 
>   models in the world for almost four years now. I am, with an associate 
>   developing a pulse/control simple full 4-channel R/C interface module for 
>   the large, efficient 6-foot devices I call Beamship V. III. I'm getting this 
>   simple and amazing technology into as many hands as possible. Just doing my 
>   part to bring about a green, clean, efficient and sane technology. And, look 
>   Ma, no moving parts!
>   Here's a recent pic of my newest 6-footer, with enhanced electrofoil and 
>   operating stably on 54.1 watts. With this configuration and straight DC, I 
>   can loft 1 gram/per-Watt. Pulsing at low freq. enables on board power and 
>   full 4-channel vector control. I fly them outside too, and they have more 
>   wind-resistance when they are electrified. Ciao!
> 
>   Russell Anderson
>   Applied Electrogravitics
> 
> 
>   >From: "Michael McDonnough" <info betavoltaic.com>
>   >Reply-To: jlnlabs yahoogroups.com
>   >CC: 
>   ><Lifters yahoogroups.com>,<jlnlabs@yahoogroups.com>,<greenglow@yahoogroups.com>
>   >Subject: [jlnlabs] formal proposal for Breakthrough Propulsion Consortium
>   >Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:41:41 -0500
>   >
>   >I have decided to work up a formal proposal and web site for
>   >The Breakthrough Propulsion Consortium
>   >
>   >The address will be http://www.betavoltaic.com/bpc/
>   >
>   >This is a temporary home for the site as it is undergoing development.
>   >Once we have it altogether and done we can move it to it's own domain.
>   >
>   >Any ideas for a domain name for this project?
>   >
>   >Very little is done on the site yet. Basicly I did some rough graphics work 
>   >and posted the 2 messages from these groups to the main page.
>   >
>   >I will add a message board and chat client to it when it have the time to 
>   >work on it. I have a friend who is a programmer that might be willing to 
>   >put together a custom work group interface and database for us. I will ask 
>   >her and get back to everyone on that. I can likely do that later this week. 
>   >Right now I am getting ready to meet with some funding people who are 
>   >flying in later in the week and need to prepare a presentation for them. 
>   >This will take all my time for the moment.
>   >
>   >Any contributions of ideas are certainly wealcome and you can use the group 
>   >or email to me directly.
>   >
>   >Michael
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
>   >
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   _________________________________________________________________
>   Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
> 
> 
>   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
>   Messages archives at :
> 
>   http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/
> 
>   To unsubscribe, send a blank email to jlnlabs-unsubscribe egroups.com
> 
>   JLN Labs web site at: http://go.to/jlnlabs 
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> http://www.egroups.com/group/jlnlabs/
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> 
> 


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  9 12:23:46 2002
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Subject: Re: Taubes
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As a raw food vegan, I'm appalled by the Atkins diet. Yes you loose 
weight, but it is so unbalanced. I advocate what I call the 80-20 or 
Biblical Diet in which 80% of your diet is alkaline forming foods, 
fruit,  vegetables. sprouts, and nuts.
>
>
>This describes Taubes' own worst nightmare, that someday his 
>statements about cold fusion will be revealed for what they are. He 
>cites anthropology texts, but I doubt he

I'm reminded of the time when Taubes was being interviewed on 
National People's Radio did a Science Friday on cold fusion some 
scientist called in and asked him if he knew what a flack was, Taubes 
replied "I believe that it's something that's put there to confuse 
the issue." The called replied, "Your a flack Taubes."

>  They eat gobs of rice, fish, and fresh or pickled vegetables. Both 
>the Americans and Japanese farmers are rail thin and stronger at age 
>70 than I was at age 20. Because they work all the time!

I eat as much as I want and I'm thin.

>
>Taubes writes facilely, and gives the impression he knows a lot, but 
>his knowledge is paper thin. As he does in "Bad Science," he 
>stumbles and betrays himself time and

I wonder how much is stupidity and how much is following his agenda.

>
>Taubes has not backed down from his anti-cold fusion jihad. The 
>article describes him: "Gary Taubes is a correspondent for the 
>journal Science and author of 'Bad Science: The Short Life and Weird 
>Times of Cold Fusion.'"

Don't hold your breath waiting for him to do that Jed. I've run into 
this before. For something that was supposed to have a short life, 
LENR's have had a good run.



-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  9 12:25:42 2002
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From: Thomas Malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Interesting physicist
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Over the weekend I met John. He is an E E. After a hitch in the Navy 
he worked for various organizations one of witch was Boeing's 
research department. While there he met Sillvin Litavitch a 
physicist. At that time he was the principal scientist. John recalled 
how Silvin liked to fly paper airplanes. One time a high ranking 
bureaucrat stopped by and observed Silvin sitting in a glass room 
flying paper airplanes. He asked Silvin why the government was paying 
him to do this. Silvin replied that "there are only about five people 
in the world who understand Einstein's theory of General Relativity, 
and I'm one of them."

Silvin also had an interest in the nature of life. He believed that a 
part of the energy ball that is G-d breaks off and fills a new born 
baby. At death, this energy us returned to it's source. He believed 
that sometimes a person's energy is recycled in total. He believed 
that he was born with an understanding of math and physics and that 
he had learned nothing from his college education.

John also recalled how Silvin spent all night staring at a helictical 
antenna attempting to understand why it wasn't working. When John 
came in to work next morning Silvin was still at it. About 10 AM, 
Silvin suddenly told him that he had solved the problem, "bend this 
radius onto the two incoming wires, and it will work." John did as 
instructed and it did work.

I'm wondering if Silvin is still alive. Will one of you with an APS 
membership check?
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  9 12:27:44 2002
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Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:23:23 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Reaction to Iwamura paper
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I sent the Iwamura abstract to a large number of people, including 
supporters and prominent opponents of cold fusion, such as Ann Davies, 
director of the DoE Fusion Sciences Energy Program 
(http://wwwofe.er.doe.gov/). Others have sent copies of the paper to Park 
and Zimmerman for comment.

So far results have been as expected. Supporters are ecstatic, and 
opponents have said nothing. It is hard to know whether opponents are 
upset, stunned, or uninterested. My guess is that they view the subject as 
a game, specifically, as an intellectual version of tennis. They see this 
as a serve they cannot return. So they stand aside, lose one point, and 
wait for the next serve. All points are the same to them, one more or less 
does not matter, and a game is only a game anyway. I have noted that 
opponents have no sense of proportion. Suppose you show that CF produces 60 
MJ from 100 grams of material and the opponent offers nothing to counter 
this assertion, but he does demonstrate a  minor problem in an experiment 
performed by Pons and Fleischmann in 1987. The opponent will consider that 
debate a draw, or a victory, because all assertions are of equal importance.

Some sample comments by supporters --

Robert Huggins:

"Although I have not looked at it in detail, it is very interesting and
convincing. It also certainly appears to be very careful and indisputable
work showing evidence for transmutation.

It will be interesting to see if there is any reaction to it from the 
anti-bodies. My guess is that they will ignore it."

Michael Staker can hardly contain himself:

"Ok, I have studied THE paper and there is no doubt now that LENR exist 
and  are a mainstream scientific FACT. Any one who disputes this now has 
got  rocks in his head and I would have to seriously doubt the intentions 
of such a person . . .

. . . Please forgive us if we cannot refrain from saying: 'I TOLD YOU SO.' 
These words slip out without my willful control."


Russ George:

"Dynamite work... looks like the spectra I showed from SIMS years back. A 
mass eight change is really curious. . . ."

Tom Benson:

"Nice paper. I've been working my way through the papers that Tom Passell 
brought back from China and this is a nice addition. I see some very strong 
similarities between different efforts..."



Here is blurb I have sent along with the Abstract to Members of the Press, 
DoE officials, and other benighted folks:


. . . Yasuhiro Iwamura, Takehiro Itoh and Mitsuru Sakano of Mitsubishi 
Heavy Industries published a landmark paper on cold fusion in the July 2002 
issue of the Japanese Journal of Applied Physics (JJAP), Japan's most 
prestigious scientific journal. This paper proves that cold fusion is a 
nuclear process capable of transmuting heavy elements (Pd, Mo and Sr) into 
other elements. Similar heavy element transmutations have been reported 
many times, notably by J. Bockris, T. Mizuno, T. Ohmori, and G. Miley, 
mainly with electrochemical cold fusion. Iwamura did similar 
electrochemical experiments for several years before switching over to the 
gas permeation system to reduce handling and contamination. This produces 
much more clearly defined results than anyone else has achieved. Iwamura et 
al. have achieved 100% qualitative reproducibility; every experiment 
produces significant results, similar in many ways, although the extent of 
the measured transmutations varies.

This is one of the most important papers in the history of cold fusion, 
ranking with the seminal work of S. Pons and M. Fleischmann, the definitive 
calorimetry by M. McKubre that proved the heat is orders of magnitude 
beyond chemistry, and the research at the Utah National Cold Fusion 
Institute under F. Will, that proved cold fusion is a nuclear effect that 
produces tritium with 100% reproducibility.

Anyone can register at: JJAP ONLINE, jjap.ipap.jp, to download the Iwamura 
paper. The title, authors and abstract are attached.

- Jed Rothwell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  9 19:48:40 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: LENR in 1900 blacksmith's shops?
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:42:49 +1000
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In reply to  Charles Ford's message of Tue, 9 Jul 2002 07:07:04 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>It is the arc that likely does the heating here.  I imagine that a as

I agree.
[snip]
>&gt; Was there some reason to believe that part of 
>&gt; the heat in the iron was due to an LENR? What is the reaction you 
>&gt; propose?
>
>No except that the process suggests a possibility.  
[snip]
..again :)

A possible hydrino forming reaction is:

H + Fe -> H[n=1/3] + Fe+++ +3e- + 54.1 eV (Fe provides an energy hole of 54.7 eV, just 0.3 eV too high).

The extra .3 eV could be supplied by the electric field accelerating H+ ions in the arc). The Fe atoms could be sputtered off the cathode by the arc.

Disproportionation reactions might shrink a few hydrinos far enough to fuse,

Fe56 + Hy -> Co57 + 6 MeV  though I would be surprised if it got that far frequently.

I think that if you're lucky, some of the heating will occur as a consequence 
of hydrino formation, though it might be interesting to see if any radioactivity could be detected.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  9 19:58:29 2002
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To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Taubes champions controversial science
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:55:52 -0700
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Jed,

Perhaps you have already sent a verson of this fine piece to the Times 
Magazine.  If not, I suggest you add and edit as appropriate, and do so.  
The irony of many of his statements in the article is amazing.

Mark


>From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
>Reply-To: vortex-l eskimo.com
>To: vortex-L eskimo.com
>Subject: Taubes champions controversial science
>Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 11:41:51 -0400
>
>The Sunday New York Times magazine features a long article by Taubes
>defending controversial science, of all things. See:
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/07FAT.html
>
>The title is "What if It's All Been a Big Fat Lie?" about dieting. He
>thinks carbohydrates cause obesity, and he supports the Atkins diet. The
>first paragraph is telling:
>
>"If the members of the American medical establishment were to have a
>collective find-yourself-standing-naked-in-Times-Square-type nightmare,
>this might be it. They spend 30 years ridiculing Robert Atkins, author of
>the phenomenally-best-selling 'Dr. Atkins' Diet Revolution' and 'Dr.
>Atkins' New Diet Revolution,' accusing the Manhattan doctor of quackery and
>fraud, only to discover that the unrepentant Atkins was right all along. Or
>maybe it's this: they find that their very own dietary recommendations --
>eat less fat and more carbohydrates -- are the cause of the rampaging
>epidemic of obesity in America. Or, just possibly this: they find out both
>of the above are true."
>
>This describes Taubes' own worst nightmare, that someday his statements
>about cold fusion will be revealed for what they are. He cites anthropology
>texts, but I doubt he has read any. He does not seem to read much. He
>claimed that "Bad Science" was based on "interviews" with people whose
>names he misspelled, and he did not list any actual publications.
>
>The original Atkins diet with lean meat is well known to anthropologists
>studying primitive diets in stressed conditions. It does indeed make you
>thinner. In fact, after about three weeks you die of severe diarrhea and
>starvation. That is why Australian Aborigine hunters used to check the tail
>of a slaughtered kangaroo and throw away the whole animal if there was not
>enough fat, even when their families were starving. In the first world, you
>cannot buy meat as lean as this, but even so the original diet is somewhat
>dangerous. People are omnivores and can survive perfectly well on all-meat
>diets such as Aleut and other tribes traditionally ate. They got enough
>vitamin C and so on, but urban Americans wouldn't like it. (Source: "Good
>to Eat: Riddles of Food and Culture," by Marvin Harris - an excellent 
>book.)
>
>Taubes' hypothesis about the USDA "food pyramid" and carbohydrates is
>wrong, or at least incomplete and deceptive. He ignores a gigantic
>counter-example well known to anthropologists and dietitians. In Japan
>since the mid 1950s people have had enough money to buy any selection of
>food they want, in unlimited quantities. Most still eat traditional
>Japanese fare, which resembles the food pyramid, only more so.
>Traditionally, Japanese people ate enough rice to choke an American, and
>farmers still do. Yet obesity remains rare in Japan.
>
>This is getting off topic, but frankly, this whole issue of diet seems
>simpler to me that people make of it. Just eat less and exercise more and
>you will be thin, guaranteed. It is basic thermodynamics. It does not
>matter much what you eat. I know some very old fashioned American farmers
>who eat gobs of meat and few vegetables. And I know Japanese farmers who
>never eat meat -- they don't like the taste, for reasons Harris describes
>in his book. They eat gobs of rice, fish, and fresh or pickled vegetables.
>Both the Americans and Japanese farmers are rail thin and stronger at age
>70 than I was at age 20. Because they work all the time!
>
>Taubes writes facilely, and gives the impression he knows a lot, but his
>knowledge is paper thin. As he does in "Bad Science," he stumbles and
>betrays himself time and again with statements that make no sense or claims
>that are obviously wrong, with well-known counter examples. I am sure the
>dietitians he spoke with while writing the article were aware of the
>Japanese diet. It is common knowledge, and they know that it supports the
>"food pyramid," but they also know that a person can grow morbidly obese
>eating rice or anything else. Taubes has discovered nothing, and his
>article has no news to people conversant with the subject. (Even I knew
>this much and more, and my only exposure to the subject has been through
>anthropology and books on energy and food.)
>
>Taubes has not backed down from his anti-cold fusion jihad. The article
>describes him: "Gary Taubes is a correspondent for the journal Science and
>author of 'Bad Science: The Short Life and Weird Times of Cold Fusion.'"
>
>- Jed
>




_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul  9 20:55:26 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Iwamura paper available
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:51:44 +1000
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In reply to  Mike Carrell's message of Tue, 9 Jul 2002 07:54:05 -0700:
Hi,
[snip]
>The killer in this paper is the transmutation of cesium to praseodymium,
>each having only one isotope. Pr is a rare earth element, no likely to be in
>anybody's contamination soup, and the evidence is directly for reducing the
>population of cesium atoms and replacing them with Pr atoms. Not much wiggle
>room there.
>
>Mike Carrell
[snip]
Check out the power-point file by Theodore M. Lach which can be found at
http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/checker.ppt . Note that he proposes that nuclei comprise clusters of 2 helium nuclei, which may form part of the explanation of the above experiment.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 10 06:36:31 2002
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Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 06:33:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: LENR in 1900 blacksmith's shops?
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If someone has an arc welder and a Geiger counter they could check this
out.

I think the trick here is the current saturation.  Dense enough current
to form a hydrogen curtain around the electrode then enough avaliable
voltage arc through it. There must be a large amount of Fe in the
electrode....  Arc welder and wire coat hanger :-)

&#34;Hay yall watch this.&#34;  BzzzzFAP-POOF. ;)


--- Robin van Spaandonk &lt;rvanspaa bigpond.net.au&gt; wrote:
&gt; In reply to  Charles Ford's message of Tue, 9 Jul 2002 07:07:04
-0700:
&gt; Hi,
&gt; [snip]
&gt; &gt;It is the arc that likely does the heating here.  I imagine that
a as
&gt; 
&gt; I agree.
&gt; [snip]
&gt; &gt;&amp;gt; Was there some reason to believe that part of 
&gt; &gt;&amp;gt; the heat in the iron was due to an LENR? What is the
reaction you
&gt; 
&gt; &gt;&amp;gt; propose?
&gt; &gt;
&gt; &gt;No except that the process suggests a possibility.  
&gt; [snip]
&gt; ..again :)
&gt; 
&gt; A possible hydrino forming reaction is:
&gt; 
&gt; H + Fe -&gt; H[n=1/3] + Fe+++ +3e- + 54.1 eV (Fe provides an energy
hole
&gt; of 54.7 eV, just 0.3 eV too high).
&gt; 
&gt; The extra .3 eV could be supplied by the electric field accelerating
H+
&gt; ions in the arc). The Fe atoms could be sputtered off the cathode by
&gt; the arc.
&gt; 
&gt; Disproportionation reactions might shrink a few hydrinos far enough
to
&gt; fuse,
&gt; 
&gt; Fe56 + Hy -&gt; Co57 + 6 MeV  though I would be surprised if it got
that
&gt; far frequently.
&gt; 
&gt; I think that if you're lucky, some of the heating will occur as a
&gt; consequence 
&gt; of hydrino formation, though it might be interesting to see if any
&gt; radioactivity could be detected.
&gt; 
&gt; 
&gt; Regards,
&gt; 
&gt; Robin van Spaandonk
&gt; 
&gt; http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
&gt; 
&gt; Competition provides the motivation,
&gt; Cooperation provides the means.
&gt; 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
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From: GESREBSPAR aol.com
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Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:33:09 EDT
Subject: The new world court.
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Opinion- I truly believe the new world court should be destroyed. An idea that
              has no merit. Every invention of a court without some kind of 
control
               has the potential for a new kind of totalitarianism. A force 
of law
                answerable only to it self. WE ARE NOT ONE WORLD YET!
                WE HAVE DIFFERENCE OF RELIGION&DIFFERENCES OF
                 VALUES. THERE IS TO MUCH TO LOOSE.
                  I agree with the administration on this one. GES

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Opinion- I truly believe the new world court should be destroyed. An idea that
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;has no merit. Every invention of a court without some kind of control
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;has the potential for a new kind of totalitarianism. A force of law
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;answerable only to it self. WE ARE NOT ONE WORLD YET!
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;WE HAVE DIFFERENCE OF RELIGION&amp;DIFFERENCES OF
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;VALUES. THERE IS TO MUCH TO LOOSE.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I agree with the administration on this one. GES</FONT></HTML>

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Can anyone recommend an OCR program that works well with scientific papers? 
General purpose OCR programs such as TextBridge are good for ordinary 
English text, but they cannot handle Greek letters or formulas.

Someone once tried to send me a Japanese document OCR'ed with an English 
OCR program. That sure didn't work! It took me several phone calls to 
figure out what she was doing.

I need this for the LENR.org project, which is being masterminded by Ed 
Storms and Tim Perdue. Scanned images of old papers may be too large. If I 
make them smaller, they become difficult to read. Perhaps someone can 
suggest a particularly effective way to compress images? I am using 
PaperPort and converted with PDFWriter to output a .pdf file. Scott Little 
once suggested a technique with Microsoft Photo Editor and .gif file 
conversion, but I no longer seem to have a copy of Photo Editor.

I seldom use OCR nowadays, because it makes many mistakes and I often throw 
away the source document. I use PaperPort to store scanned images of 
documents, photos, etc. It does a pretty good job of compression. Now that 
disks are so big, file size doesn't matter anyway.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 10 17:26:49 2002
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From: Stan <stanb ptbo.igs.net>
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Jed Rothwell wrote:  "Taubes' hypothesis about the USDA "food pyramid" and carbohydrates is 
wrong, or at least incomplete and deceptive. He ignores a gigantic 
counter-example well known to anthropologists and dietitians. In Japan 
since the mid 1950s people have had enough money to buy any selection of 
food they want, in unlimited quantities. Most still eat traditional 
Japanese fare, which resembles the food pyramid, only more so. 
Traditionally, Japanese people ate enough rice to choke an American, and 
farmers still do. Yet obesity remains rare in Japan. ..."

... And they kept suffering from hypertension and stroke just as readily, instead of cardio-vascular disease. Japanese women were getting osteoporosis earlier than American!  Note that such comparisons are riddled with danger.  Greeks and Swiss who
consume a lot more fats live just as long or longer.

Jed, I have been studying this subject for the last 3 years and there is now tons of research, too many to list here supporting low carb and high saturated fat nutrition as being the most natural for humans.  (If you are really interested I might post
them or email you).   Briefly, there appear to exist two distinct metabolic dietary optima for humans:
1) high carb with 30% proteins, 30% fat and 40% carbs (by calories),
2) high fat low carb low protein with 70-80% calories out of natural saturated fats and the remainder split equally between proteins and carbohydrates (J.Kwasniewski "Homo Optimus").

It is quite conceivable that Taubes may simply be right about nutrition and wrong about cold fusion!
Interestingly, we seem to be witnessing a very similiar kind of coverup going on in the field of nutrition as there has been in CF.
Except the first one is just cracking up.  We shall probably hear more about it.

Stan Bleszynski

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 10 19:04:45 2002
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:00:55 EDT
Subject: Drudge Report Links He3 article
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Hi All - 

The Drudge Report (http://drudgereport.com/), one of the web's most popular 
sites, linked itself to an article about Helium 3 
(http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/10/1026185065069.html) and the 
commercialization of space.  Nothing new here, apart from the attention.

Erik

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From: Charles Ford <cjford1 yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Does anyone know of a scientific-text OCR program?
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You may be able to add fonts to your OCR
--- Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:
> Can anyone recommend an OCR program that works well with scientific
> papers? 
> General purpose OCR programs such as TextBridge are good for ordinary 
> English text, but they cannot handle Greek letters or formulas.
> 
> Someone once tried to send me a Japanese document OCR'ed with an
> English 
> OCR program. That sure didn't work! It took me several phone calls to 
> figure out what she was doing.
> 
> I need this for the LENR.org project, which is being masterminded by Ed
> 
> Storms and Tim Perdue. Scanned images of old papers may be too large.
> If I 
> make them smaller, they become difficult to read. Perhaps someone can 
> suggest a particularly effective way to compress images? I am using 
> PaperPort and converted with PDFWriter to output a .pdf file. Scott
> Little 
> once suggested a technique with Microsoft Photo Editor and .gif file 
> conversion, but I no longer seem to have a copy of Photo Editor.
> 
> I seldom use OCR nowadays, because it makes many mistakes and I often
> throw 
> away the source document. I use PaperPort to store scanned images of 
> documents, photos, etc. It does a pretty good job of compression. Now
> that 
> disks are so big, file size doesn't matter anyway.
> 
> - Jed
> 


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
http://sbc.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 11 01:37:51 2002
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Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 03:29:39 -0500
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From: Thomas Malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: The new world court.
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<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: The new world court.</title></head><body>
<blockquote type="cite" cite><font face="Arial" size="-1">Opinion- I
truly believe the new world court should be destroyed. An idea
that</font></blockquote>
<div><font face="Arial" size="-1"><br></font></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I agree with you, but there is nothing that we can do about it.
The one world government is coming, like it or not. Please increase
your font size.</div>
<x-sigsep><pre>-- 
</pre></x-sigsep>
</body>
</html>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 11 07:16:25 2002
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Stan wrote:

>Greeks and Swiss who
>consume a lot more fats live just as long or longer.
>


Kenya's Maasai tribe are a prime example getting 2/3rds of their caloric 
intake from saturated fats.  

http://www.idrc.ca/reports/prn_report.cfm?article_num=268


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 11 08:19:23 2002
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From: ConexTom aol.com
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Subject: Re: The new world court.
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In a message dated 7/11/2002 4:38:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:


> Opinion- I truly believe the new world court should be destroyed. An idea 
> that

Our modern age does needs not a world government, nor a world court that is 
dominated by only a few selfish cultures as it is presently, which uses world 
courts and world governments, to repress justice rather than enforce it by 
means of double speak.   I recently viewed all of the space treaty laws of 
the UN, and none of the laws are being enforced or followed by most of the 
major world powers or the UN.  The only states that follow the laws of the UN 
are not the states that are in power or in control of the UN.   

We do need an international court to settle disputes between individuals, 
local communities, corporations, and nation states, but the international 
court must not be controlled by big business or a few dominant ruthless 
cultures as the world court is presently.  Also the world court, only allows 
for cases to be filed by nation states and not by corporations, local 
cultures or individuals, and therefore the world court does not even serve 
its purpose, since most nations states can deal with their international 
legal matters, but most local cultures, individuals and corporations cannot. 


Respectfully,


Thomas Clark
tom rhfweb.com
www.rhfweb.com\personal

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>In a message dated 7/11/2002 4:38:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, temalloy metro.lakes.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Opinion- I truly believe the new world court should be destroyed. An idea that</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
Our modern age does needs not a world government, nor a world court that is dominated by only a few selfish cultures as it is presently, which uses world courts and world governments, to repress justice rather than enforce it by means of double speak.&nbsp;&nbsp; I recently viewed all of the space treaty laws of the UN, and none of the laws are being enforced or followed by most of the major world powers or the UN.&nbsp; The only states that follow the laws of the UN are not the states that are in power or in control of the UN.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>
<BR>
We do need an international court to settle disputes between individuals, local communities, corporations, and nation states, but the international court must not be controlled by big business or a few dominant ruthless cultures as the world court is presently.&nbsp; Also the world court, only allows for cases to be filed by nation states and not by corporations, local cultures or individuals, and therefore the world court does not even serve its purpose, since most nations states can deal with their international legal matters, but most local cultures, individuals and corporations cannot. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Respectfully,<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Thomas Clark<BR>
tom rhfweb.com<BR>
www.rhfweb.com\personal<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 11 09:44:42 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Taubes champions controversial science (OFF TOPIC)
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Stan wrote:

>Traditionally, Japanese people ate enough rice to choke an American, 
>and  farmers still do. Yet obesity remains rare in Japan. ..."
>
>... And they kept suffering from hypertension and stroke just as readily

More readily, but that is caused by the high levels of salt in the 
traditional  diet (in pickles), and by the fact that they do not die 
earlier of other diseases. Salt consumption in Japan is dropping rapidly.


>Japanese women were getting osteoporosis earlier than American!

I have not heard that. In any case, they live longer on average.


>Note that such comparisons are riddled with danger.  Greeks and Swiss who 
>consume a lot more fats live just as long or longer.

Yes, that is what I wrote. Any sensible diet will do, as long as overall 
calories are within reason. Taubes missed that point.


>Jed, I have been studying this subject for the last 3 years and there is 
>now tons of research, too many to list here supporting low carb and high 
>saturated fat nutrition as being the most natural for humans.

"Most natural" is a difficult standard to apply to an omnivorous specie 
which would not exist without weapons for hunting, cooked food, and other 
intense use of technology. These things predated us, and we would not have 
emerged without them. The first humans were not naked and defenseless: they 
were born with weapons, fire and language at their disposal. People thrive 
under a wider range of diets, climates and other conditions than any other 
species. We are the least "natural" species on earth, ranking right up 
there with domesticated turkeys, or maize with impossibly high seed density.


>It is quite conceivable that Taubes may simply be right about nutrition 
>and wrong about cold fusion!

He is only partly right. He overlooked the Asian diets that closely 
resemble the USDA food pyramid. He is right that people can be healthy 
eating mostly meat, but this is common knowledge. I presume some of the 
USDA experts have studied anthropology! They simplified the issue to make 
recommendations well suited to a U.S. audience, given the typical U.S. 
available food choices, customs, cooking methods, level of exercise and so on.


>Interestingly, we seem to be witnessing a very similiar kind of coverup 
>going on in the field of nutrition as there has been in CF.

That was the impression the Taubes article gave, although naturally he 
would deny that CF has been covered up. That is what is ironic about the 
article. But I disagree. I see no coverup in nutrition. We have many 
problems such over-simplification in the mass media, fads, exploitive, 
overpriced, unhealthy food and so on, but I doubt many experts deny the 
Atkins diet works. (Perhaps expert dietitians are ignorant? Honestly, I 
cannot judge. I have read only a little of their literature, but lots of 
anthropology.)

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 11 09:59:13 2002
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> More readily, but that is caused by the high levels of salt in the 
> traditional  diet (in pickles), and by the fact that they do not die 
> earlier of other diseases. Salt consumption in Japan is dropping rapidly.


When I was in Japan, I never got used to the traditional breakfast of 
miso soup and pickles.  However, when I ordered the "tradional western" 
breakfast at my hotel, the bacon was served rare and the waiter was 
horrified when I asked it to be sent back and burned.



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Terry,
Thanks for the link, this is fascinating.

Quote:

===
According to Dr Timothy Johns of McGill University, up to 66% of the calories
consumed in the Maasai diet come from fat, primarily saturated fats. Yet Maasai serum
cholesterol levels are in the normal to low range, possibly due to their use of plant
products, such as chew sticks and gums stripped from local plants.
The traditional diet of East Africa's Maasai people may contain powerful plant-based
antioxidants with the potential to reduce cholesterol levels and provide other health
benefits, according to research by Timothy Johns, a Canadian ethnobotanist at McGill
University. 
===

They don't have to go that far to Africa to find out.  That shows how low have the scientific standards fallen, not just in physics.  This looks like a classical example of a flawed logic trying to prove their favored dietary theory; chasing a secondary
dietary factors such as a "mysterious" herb or making up some ad-hoc genetical or other bizzare "explanations" rather than face the main factor - 66% saturated fat in the diet!     Their cholesterol profile is so good (i.e. high HDL and low LDL and low
TG) precisely because of the fat not in-spite of it.   There is about 1.5 millions of Americans on Atkins as well as 2 millions in Poland practicing a high fat (70-80%!) low carb nutrition who have discovered exactly the same thing! This is very well
known.

Comming back to CF, I would urge the readers to really look around - there is a huge media manipulation in publicizing research data, manipulation and misdirection of the research funding which is not limited to cold fusion but actually IMHO _much_ worse
in the area of medicine, food & drugs (and many other sciences).
 
Stan Bleszynski



Terry Blanton wrote:
> 
> Stan wrote:
> 
> >Greeks and Swiss who
> >consume a lot more fats live just as long or longer.
> >
> 
> Kenya's Maasai tribe are a prime example getting 2/3rds of their caloric
> intake from saturated fats.
> 
> http://www.idrc.ca/reports/prn_report.cfm?article_num=268

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 11 12:56:30 2002
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The Heisenberg Principle of Indeterminacy

			Is Not.....
                            : UNCERTAINTY PRINCIPLE -- called also
				Heisenberg's uncertainty principle 
	___________________________________________________________

	Here is the brief:

	(1)
	
	"The more precisely the POSITION is determined, 
		the less precisely the MOMENTUM is known" 

____________________________________________________________
	IF:  You are talking about an Electron and 
	IF:  You are using a Specific Thought Experiment to get the
			"answer"

	AND

	IF: In this Specific Thought Experiment experiment you are using
	an Imaginary Gamma Ray Microscope designed by 1920s knowledge
	
	AND

	IF: 

	The operation of the Gamma Ray Microscope and the capabilities
	of experimental physics are dictated by the Background Skill
	 and Knowledge of Scientist in 1926 and 1927 and the
		capabilities of All of Experimental Physics Will
		NEVER Change and-or Advance ....

	THEN:	With this "cemented in one place" thinking

	You arrive at a THEORY... based Not Only on:

	(A) The	Specific Thought Experiment and the
		limitations of the above,

		But Also On 

	(B) The scientific politics and social
pressures of the time ( see the abbreviated history, below)  

		Which Postulates:
	(2)

	The more precisely the POSITION is determined,
                the less precisely the MOMENTUM is known		

	On with the story, from many sources Thanks to AIP and many
others:	
_________________
	If one wants to be clear about what is meant by "position of an
object," for example of an electron..., then one has to specify definite
experiments by which the "position of an electron" can be measured; 
otherwise this term has no meaning at all. 
                                                 
--Heisenberg, in uncertainty paper, 1927
_________________
	NOTE:  The colloquial use of HUP, or "Heisenberg's Uncertainty
Principle" instead of the author's (Heisenberg's)  original Heisenberg
Principle of Indeterminacy is due to AIP's "popularized" history, some of
which appears, below [http://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/] for which
they should deserve full credit, the good, the bad and the indifferent.
____________
 	Are the uncertainty relations that Heisenberg discovered in 1927 just
the result of the equations used, or are they really built into every
measurement? Heisenberg turned to a thought experiment, since he believed
that all concepts in science require a definition based on actual, or
possible, experimental observations.  Heisenberg pictured a microscope
that obtains very high resolution by using high-energy gamma rays for
illumination.  No such microscope exists at present, but it could be
constructed in principle. Heisenberg imagined using this microscope to see
an electron and to measure its position. He found that the electron's
position and momentum did indeed obey the uncertainty relation he had
derived mathematically. Bohr pointed out some flaws in the experiment, but
once these were corrected the demonstration was fully convincing. 
___________________
-------------------
	I had no faith in a theory that ran completely counter to our
Copenhagen conception.

--Heisenberg, recollection
____________________________________

	A little note:

	(not AIP)
                
	In 1927, Heisenberg published the Indeterminacy, or Uncertainty,
Principle in which he endeavoured to relate the matrix-entities to the
intuitively familiar concepts of classical physics. If q is the
position-coordinate of an electron, and p a measurement of its momentum,
then delta-q * delta-p > h (Planck's constant), where delta-q and delta-p
are the standard deviation of measurements of p and q. One of the
characteristics of matrix algebra is that the law of commutation for
multiplication does not hold (a*b not= b*a).  Momentum and position are
thus characterised as "non-commuting variables", from which it follows
that the determination of each of the two variables cannot be deemed to
make sense independently of one another, the two entities cannot have a
separate meaning independent of one another; the Indeterminacy Principle
stated above gives a definite quantitative measure to this degree of
interdependence. This conception has a close parallel to Einstein's
discovery that measurements of space and time cannot be conceived of
measuring entities independent of one another. 

			|||||||||---------	|||||||||||
                
	This result has been interpreted by subjectivist writers to mean
that in some way what is at issue is the Mind of the person carrying out
the measurement which is determining the interaction, but this idea hinges
on a total misunderstanding of the issue. The problem for conception of
these processes arises from the fact that for everyday, pictorial
thinking, position and momentum are distinct entities; in relation to
quantum phenomena, these concepts are meaningful only in relation to
interactions of a particle, and quite distinct interactions are implied in
the measurement of momentum or position. This is not at all the case in
everday experience. 
____________________________==============______________________________
....back to AIP..
                         
	In May 1926 Schrdinger published a proof that matrix and wave
mechanics gave equivalent results: mathematically they were the same
theory. He also argued for the superiority of wave mechanics over matrix
mechanics. This provoked an angry reaction, especially from Heisenberg,
who insisted on the existence of discontinuous quantum jumps rather than a
theory based on continuous waves. _________
________________
                          There was more at stake than personal
preferences, for jobs were now in the balance for the creators of matrix
mechanics.  Most of the young men who created matrix mechanics were ready
to move into teaching positions as professors, and the older generation of
theoretical physicists was beginning to vacate positions at German
universities. Heisenberg's family was exerting pressure on the young man
to capture one of the vacancies at the same time that his best work,
matrix mechanics, seemed to be overshadowed by wave mechanics. 
__________________________
     The more I think about the physical portion of Schrdinger's theory,
the more repulsive I find it...What Schrdinger writes about the
visualizability of his theory 'is probably not quite right,' in other
words it's crap. 

--Heisenberg, writing to Pauli, 1926
____________________________

Heisenberg had just begun his job as Niels Bohr's assistant in Copenhagen
when Schrdinger came to town in October 1926 to debate the alternative
theories with Bohr. The intense debates in Copenhagen proved inconclusive.
They showed only that neither interpretation of atomic events could be
considered satisfactory. Both sides began searching for a satisfactory
physical interpretation of the quantum mechanics equations in line with
their own preferences.
_______________________________________
__________________________________________
	Part of the "where it came from"

	Studying the papers of Dirac and Jordan, while in frequent
correspondence with Wolfgang Pauli, Heisenberg discovered a problem in the
way one could measure basic physical variables appearing in the equations. 
His analysis showed that uncertainties, or imprecisions, always turned up
if one tried to measure the position and the momentum of a particle at the
same time.  (Similar uncertainties occurred when measuring the energy and
the time variables of the particle simultaneously.)  These uncertainties
or imprecisions in the measurements were not the fault of the
experimenter, said Heisenberg, they were inherent in quantum mechanics.
Heisenberg presented his discovery and its consequences in a 14-page
letter to Pauli in February 1927. The letter evolved into a published
paper in which Heisenberg presented to the world for the first time what
became known as the uncertainty principle. 
_______________________

In Bohr's words, the wave and particle pictures, or the visual and causal
representations, are "complementary" to each other. That is, they are
mutually exclusive, yet jointly essential for a complete description of
quantum events. Obviously in an experiment in the everyday world an object
cannot be both a wave and a particle at the same time; it must be either
one or the other, depending upon the situation.
__________________________ 
In later refinements of this interpretation the wave function of the
unobserved object is a mixture of both the wave and particle pictures
until the experimenter chooses what to observe in a given experiment.
(Remember that, according to Heisenberg, the path of an object first comes
into existence when we observe it.) By choosing either the wave or the
particle picture, the experimenter disturbs untouched nature. Such
favoritism unleashes a limitation in what one can learn about nature "as
it really is." 
 	This limitation is expressed by Heisenberg's uncertainty relations,
which, for Bohr, were related to what he was now calling
"complementarity."  Complementarity, uncertainty, and the statistical
interpretation of Schrdinger's wave function were all related. Together
they formed a logical interpretation of the physical meaning of quantum
mechanics known as the "Copenhagen interpretation."
__________________

Since my talks with Bohr often continued until long after midnight and did
not produce a satisfactory conclusion, ...both of us became utterly
exhausted and rather tense. 

--Heisenberg, recollection
______________________________
	Heisenberg vehemently objected at first to Bohr's views. 
Insisting on the primary use of particles and discontinuity, he refused
Bohr's suggestion that he withdraw his paper, which was already in press. 
He did, however, append a paragraph alerting readers to Bohr's views and
admitting the error regarding the resolution of the microscope.  The
battle with Bohr grew so intense in the early months of 1927 that
Heisenberg reportedly burst into tears at one point, and even managed to
wound Bohr with his sharp remarks.  Obviously, there was much at stake for
the 25-year-old.  ------------------
______________________________________
	By the fall of 1927, matters had completely changed. Heisenberg's
job situation was settled upon his appointment to the University of
Leipzig. And Bohr presented to a conference at Lake Como, Italy, his
complementarity argument. A month later, in October 1927, Born and
Heisenberg, speaking to the Solvay physics conference in Brussels,
Belgium, went so far as to declare quantum mechanics to be complete and
irrevocable. 
___________________
	"The theory yields a lot, but it hardly brings us any closer to
the secret of the Old One. In any case I am convinced that He does not
throw dice." 
                                                 
--Einstein, writing to Max Born, 4 December 1926. 
---------------------------
________________________                        
Not everyone agreed with the new interpretation, or with Born and
Heisenberg's statement about future work.  Einstein and Schrdinger were
among the most notable dissenters. Until the ends of their lives they
never fully accepted the Copenhagen doctrine. Einstein was dissatisfied
with the reliance upon probabilities. But even more fundamentally, he
believed that nature exists independently of the experimenter, and the
motions of particles are precisely determined.  It is the job of the
physicist to uncover the laws of nature that govern these motions, which,
in the end, will not require statistical theories. The fact that quantum
mechanics did seem consistent only with statistical results and could not
fully describe every motion was for Einstein an indication that quantum
mechanics was still incomplete. 
-------------------------------
___________________________

						



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 11 13:06:11 2002
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Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:00:13 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Thomas Malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Diet and fat
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>Stan wrote:
>
>>Greeks and Swiss who
>>consume a lot more fats live just as long or longer.
>>
>
>
>Kenya's Maasai tribe are a prime example getting 2/3rds of their 
>caloric intake from saturated fats. 
>http://www.idrc.ca/reports/prn_report.cfm?article_num=268

Americans eat too much, that's why they have that puffy look. They 
also eat lots of hydrogenated fats which are bad because they 
metabolize into bad cholesterol. They also eat Canola oil which 
produces scaring on the nerves. That is why so many of them are 
developing diseases like ALS and Alzhiemers.
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 11 14:09:49 2002
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Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:00:28 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Iwamura and contamination
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I predicted the "skeptics" will refuse to address the Iwamura paper, and so 
far they have, all but one. Kirk L. Shanahan is so bold he took on Iwamura. 
He picked the weakest argument open to the skeptics: contamination! You can 
read his thoughts over in s.p.f., in the thread, "New cold fusion paper by 
Iwamura et al."

Anyway, I bring this up because he prompted me to made a list of reasons 
why contamination is unlikely. I would to run it here to see whether I left 
something out, or misunderstood. Iwamura deals with contamination at the 
following ways:

1. By measuring the starting material purity.

2. With the on-line XPS scan, which examines the surface and identifies 
elements. (See http://www.uksaf.org/tech/xps.html). I wish someone would 
explain a little more of what Iwamura means on p. 4644, column 2.

3. With SIMS, which measures isotopes. They use a Physical Electronics 
6600, at Probion Analysis, Inc. (See http://www.probion.fr/). Some 
spectrometers confuse elements and molecules with the same atomic weight, 
but this one uses the offset voltage technique to distinguish between them. 
(p. 4647)

4. In comparison with three different types of blank experiments: unused Pd 
- Ca 5-layer complexes; complexes permeated with hydrogen instead of 
deuterium; pure Pd samples. The latter means samples which lack layers of 
Ca, but still have Cs or Sr on the surface.

5. In comparing the Cs with Sr runs. With Cs as the starting material, when 
deuterium gas permeates through, Pr always appears. With Sr, Mo always 
appears. You never see Sr => Pr, or find Cs => Mo. If this is 
contamination, it has a mind of its own.

6. In the fact that the starting Cs and Sr fades away. This would be 
"anti-contamination." Gas permeating through the sample might deposit new 
contamination from the gas onto the surface, but I doubt it would remove 
old contamination. If this were an intense stream of gas blowing on the 
surface maybe it would clean it off, but this is gentle, slow permeation, 
at 1 atm, 70 deg C. (I think it at 70 deg C the whole time - see p. 4644 
col. 1).

7. Based on simple thermodynamics, as the authors explain on p. 4648, last 
paragraph. In the worst case, all of the contamination in the sample might 
barely explain the observations, but there is no mechanism that can 
concentrate all of this contamination where the XPS can see it.

8. The isotope ratios of the Mo are unnatural by a huge margin.


Here is an interesting exchange between Shanahan and Mike Staker:

"[Shanahan:] The 'normal' way to view these results is to break them into 
two sets, based on the use of Cs or Sr, then subdivide by the use of H or 
D. And normally, a 'blank' implies the active component is missing, so 
'blanks' here would be done without Cs or Sr. Maybe I missed it (I did
miss something, see below), but I don't recall any data from unpromoted 
runs (the Sr and Cs are 'promoters').
****
****
[Staker:] This is an example of the lack of logic in Dr. Shanahan's 
arguments against science: He claims no blank runs: yet the paper reports 
runs with Sr and runs without Sr, and paper reports runs with Cs and runs 
w/o Cs. It is perfectly acceptable, for the sake of efficience, to combine 
a blank of no Cs with a run of Sr and a blank run of no Sr with a run of 
Cs. (The only exception to this is if the observed result is the same in 
both cases, which it is not) This is an example of the illogic of seeing 
only what you want to see in the reported results; not the real science of 
it. Man, get some logic and take off your blinders."


. . . I would add that Cs, Sr or some other telltale "marker" is required 
in this experiment. This instrument show no sign of a reaction without a 
marker. Apparently the Pd itself does not transmute significantly, at least 
at the surface. Perhaps it does internally, at the interfaces to the Ca layers.

Other nuclear reactions may be occurring, but they cannot be detected with 
this arrangement. Helium, for example, may be produced, the the reaction 
rate is probably too low for it to be detected with the on-line quadrupole 
mass spectrometer (detection limits about 1ppm, p. 4644, col. 2).

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 11 15:22:00 2002
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The fact that this topics continues looks like a proof that nothing really interesting is happening at the moment in CF, free energy etc.    8-:)

Thomas Malloy wrote: "They also eat Canola oil which 
produces scaring on the nerves."

...and it also compromises their immune system exposing them to increased cancer risk, not counting that erucic acid it also contains, is a known albeit mild heart toxin.  You will find similiar things wrong with most vegetable polyunsat. oils except
perhaps olive oil.  

Re: Americans eat too much.

That was the whole point of that article!  However Taubes conclusion was that it is so because by obediently following their gov "pyramidal" guideline they end up eating too much carbohydrtes which increases craving for more food.

Stan Bleszynski

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Jed said:


> I predicted the "skeptics" will refuse to address the Iwamura paper, and
so
> far they have, all but one. Kirk L. Shanahan is so bold he took on
Iwamura.
> He picked the weakest argument open to the skeptics: contamination! You
can
> read his thoughts over in s.p.f., in the thread, "New cold fusion paper by
> Iwamura et al."
>
<snip>

For the contamination argument to prevail, an intellectually honest critic
must show a plausible physical mechanism showing Iwamurs's Fig. 4a.

The target is sealed within Chamber A, which is evacuated and XPS analysis
shows only Cs and C on the target. Pure D2 is admitted to one atmosphere and
for 50 hours it diffuses through the wafer. There will be some loss of
pressure, so a bit more D2 from the tank is admitted to maintain the
pressure. Chamber A is evacuated and XPS shows reduction of Cs and
appearance of Pr. Chamber A is again pressurized with D2 and diffusion
continues to 120 hours, whereupon the chamber is once again evacuated and
XPS used to measure the Cs and Pr, with Pr now dominating.

Pr is a rare earth element, a metal, solid at room temperature. The critic
must explain how the Pr got onto the target in the D2 gas, which was the
only substance admitted to the chamber during the test run. If the critic
does not address this issue, he is not doing his own homework.

Mike Carrell

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 12 08:26:18 2002
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Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:22:44 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: ANS press release lauds "mobile Chernobyl" plan
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Okay, not really. They don't call it the "mobile Chernobyl" plan and I 
think the anti-nuclear crowd may be exaggerating the dangers. Also, it does 
not seem safe to leave the stuff where it is. Anyway, here is what the ANS 
has to say:

From: "Dave Kelly" <dkelly ans.org>
Subject: NEWS RELEASE: ANS Position Affirms Safety of Transporting
Nuclear Waste

Contact: Dave Kelly
dkelly ans.org
(708) 579-8224
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

ANS Position Affirms Safety of Transporting Nuclear Waste

La GRANGE PARK, Ill. July 12, 2002--With the Senate approving Yucca 
Mountain as the nation's first geological repository on Tuesday, attention 
now focuses on the security of moving spent nuclear fuel to the Nevada 
site. The American Nuclear Society has adopted a position statement that 
addresses the safety of transporting radioactive materials.

ANS applauds the Senate's vote approving Yucca Mountain.

"The transportation of radioactive materials in the United States has 
enjoyed, and can continue to enjoy, an excellent safety record," said Herb 
Fontecilla, chair of ANS' Public Policy Committee. "In view of this
safety record, the small number of shipments compared to the volume of 
other hazardous materials, the inherent robustness and stringent 
requirements imposed on the shipping casks, we believe that the projected 
shipments of used nuclear fuel to Yucca Mountain can be accomplished safely 
and without impacting the health and safety of the population along the 
shipping routes."

Operation of Yucca Mountain for used nuclear fuel would result in 
additional shipments from reactor sites, where the fuel is currently 
stored. Current estimates are for about 2,200 truck shipments and 500 rail 
shipments per year over a 24-year period. This would constitute an increase 
of less than 0.1 percent over the current number of radioactive shipments, 
and less than 0.0007 percent of the 400 million shipments of all kinds of 
hazardous materials taking place per year in the United States.

The nuclear energy industry has transported more than 3,000 shipments of 
used nuclear fuel over 1.7 million miles of U.S. highways and railroads 
since 1964. No nuclear fuel container has ever cracked or released any 
radioactive material to the environment. Also, the Department of Energy has 
transported to the Waste Isolation Pilot Project in New Mexico about 700 
shipments of transuranic waste over 1.5 million miles since 1999 without 
incident.

"All shipments of radioactive materials take place according to regulations 
issued by the Department of Transportation and the Nuclear Regulatory 
Commission," said Fontecilla. "Federal regulations address packaging, 
labeling, loading and unloading, storage, transportation routes and vehicle 
requirements, as well as limits on external radiation.

"There also are requirements to protect against the diversion of these 
materials. All shippers and carriers are licensed, as are the storage and 
shipping containers."

Packages, or casks, used for the transportation of materials with the 
highest levels of radioactivity ­ including used nuclear fuel ­ are 
required to survive such simulated accident conditions as a crash at high 
speed into a concrete barrier, water immersion, a 30-foot drop onto an 
unyielding surface, severe impact and extreme heat.
Studies of the risk posed by the transportation of used fuel confirm that 
the current regulations provide adequate protection of the public health 
and safety, according to the ANS position statement. In addition,
used fuel shipments take place only along specified routes, and governors 
of states through which the material will pass are notified in advance.

"More than 45 million shipments of radioactive materials have taken place 
in the United States over the last three decades, with a current rate of 
about three million per year," said Fontecilla. "The majority of these 
radioactive shipments consist of radiopharmaceuticals, luminous dials and 
indicators, smoke detectors, contaminated clothing and equipment, and 
research and industrial sources. Fewer than 3,500, or 0.01 percent, have 
been involved in any sort of accident, incident or anything other than 
routine transportation. Fewer than 200 were damaged or failed in any form.

"None of the damaged packages contained used fuel or high-level radioactive 
materials."

ANS, established in 1954, is a professional organization of scientists and 
engineers devoted to the applications of nuclear science and technology. 
Its 11,000 members come from diverse technical disciplines ranging from 
physics and nuclear safety to operations and power, and from across the 
full spectrum of the national and international nuclear enterprise, 
including government, academia, research laboratories and private industry.

-30-

For more information regarding this and other position statements of the 
American Nuclear Society, please go to its web site at 
http://www.ans.org/pi/ps/.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 12 09:42:21 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Iwamura and contamination
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I wrote:

>6. In the fact that the starting Cs and Sr fades away. This would be 
>"anti-contamination." Gas permeating through the sample might deposit new 
>contamination from the gas onto the surface, but I doubt it would remove 
>old contamination. . . .

Let me expand this a little. You can postulate a mechanism that might 
deposit contamination, perhaps scavenged from the walls of the chamber. 
(Actually, I doubt that is possible, and even if it is, it would work the 
same way with H or D, and with pure Pd or a Pd CaO complex.) You can also 
postulate a process that cleans off the sample surface, revealing the Pd 
underneath. But no process could clean off one metal element while 
simultaneously depositing another, keeping them in precisely the right 
proportions so that the total number of atoms does not change.

The more you think about it, the less likely contamination appears. This is 
why I think Iwamura's experiment is by far the best proof of transmutation 
in CF yet published. The design is marvelous and Iwamura has the resources 
to implement it beautifully.

I am preparing another message describing some of the aspects of this 
experiment I do not understand, and some parts I and others find 
inexplicable. I may not have time to post the full message but let me 
mention the two main mysteries:

Why does the Cs or Sr mass number increase by 8? Everyone at ICCF-9 
wondered about this. I know nothing about nuclear physics, but I wonder 
whether that could that be two alpha particles from some other reaction. 
But why don't the targets accept only one?

What role does the Ca play? The Cs or Sr do not transmute unless Ca is 
present, but the Ca is located 400 angstroms below the surface, which is 
pretty far on the atomic scale. Iwamura selected this depth to make what he 
calls a "bulk" barrier. The Pd at the surface where the Cs or Sr is located 
does not appear to transmute. So I suppose a reaction of some sort must be 
occurring 400 angstroms down below. Why would that affect the Cs or Sr?!? I 
have asked three distinguished experts in this field what the Ca does, and 
they gave me three totally different answers. (Different as far as I can 
tell.) It makes me feel better about being a rank amateur, knowing that the 
experts have no clue.

Great theory papers answer many questions. Great experimental papers often 
reveal more mysteries than they resolve.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 12 11:55:43 2002
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Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:50:57 -0400
To: vortex-l eskimo.com, <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Iwamura and contamination
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Mike Carrell wrote:

>For the contamination argument to prevail, an intellectually honest critic
>must show a plausible physical mechanism showing Iwamurs's Fig. 4a.
>
>The target is sealed within Chamber A, which is evacuated and XPS analysis 
>shows only Cs and C on the target. . . .

I think Shanahan's principal hypothesis is that the Pr and Mo contamination 
is in the starting materials. He says Iwamura should use starting material 
with "five-nines" purity. Iwamura addresses this issue. He points out that 
it would be thermodynamically impossible for all atoms of Pr or Mo 
contamination in the bulk to gather up and migrate to the upper surface. 
This is also impossible for some of the reasons I gave regarding blank 
experiments, different results with starting materials (Cs or Sr), the 
isotopes, and the fact that Cs and Sr disappear. You can postulate a 
mechanism that might deposit contamination, perhaps scavenged from the 
walls of the chamber. And you can postulate a process that cleans off the 
sample surface, revealing the Pd underneath. But I do not think any process 
could clean off one metal element while simultaneously depositing another, 
in precisely the same proportions.

Shanahan has not addressed any of the eight points I raised to my 
satisfaction. I do not take him seriously, and I would not have mentioned 
him here, except that he prompted me to make this list of reasons why 
contamination is not an issue. I meant to do that anyway.


>Pr is a rare earth element, a metal, solid at room temperature. The critic
>must explain how the Pr got onto the target in the D2 gas . . .

I do not think that is Shanahan's thesis. As I said, he says it is in the 
starting material.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 12 15:08:15 2002
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Subject: Re: Iwamura and contamination
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>; <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: Iwamura and contamination


> Mike Carrell wrote:
>
> >For the contamination argument to prevail, an intellectually honest
critic
> >must show a plausible physical mechanism showing Iwamurs's Fig. 4a.
> >
> >The target is sealed within Chamber A, which is evacuated and XPS
analysis
> >shows only Cs and C on the target. . . .
>
> I think Shanahan's principal hypothesis is that the Pr and Mo
contamination
> is in the starting materials. He says Iwamura should use starting material
> with "five-nines" purity. Iwamura addresses this issue. He points out that
> it would be thermodynamically impossible for all atoms of Pr or Mo
> contamination in the bulk to gather up and migrate to the upper surface.

This is right. The pressure gradient is away from the target surface toward
the vacuum chamber below. There is a diffusion flow of D atoms through the
substrate toward the vacuum, which would tend to sweep anything loose in
that direction. This is the principle of the diffusion vacuum pump.

> This is also impossible for some of the reasons I gave regarding blank
> experiments, different results with starting materials (Cs or Sr), the
> isotopes, and the fact that Cs and Sr disappear. You can postulate a
> mechanism that might deposit contamination, perhaps scavenged from the
> walls of the chamber.

Jed used a kind word. One can imagine such things, but every such imagined
process must be tested for plausibility under the stated experimental
conditions. Scavenging of impurities does occur in high vacuum systems where
there is strong radiation or plasmas. Chamber A is at atmospheric pressure,
filled with D during the run. There is no pressure or force gradient to move
anything form the walls to the target. And Pr is a rare earth element which
is obtained only by careful chemical processes. That it would be a casual
environmental contaminant is simply a fantasy. XPS says it was not there at
the beginning but was there later.

And you can postulate a process that cleans off the
> sample surface, revealing the Pd underneath. But I do not think any
process
> could clean off one metal element while simultaneously depositing another,
> in precisely the same proportions.
>
> Shanahan has not addressed any of the eight points I raised to my
> satisfaction. I do not take him seriously, and I would not have mentioned
> him here, except that he prompted me to make this list of reasons why
> contamination is not an issue. I meant to do that anyway.
>
>
> >Pr is a rare earth element, a metal, solid at room temperature. The
critic
> >must explain how the Pr got onto the target in the D2 gas . . .
>
> I do not think that is Shanahan's thesis. As I said, he says it is in the
> starting material.

How does Pr get into the starting material? And why is it not seen by XPS at
the beginning of the run? Explain, please.

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 12 15:42:52 2002
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Subject: Re: Iwamura and contamination
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Mike Carrell wrote:

> > I do not think that is Shanahan's thesis. As I said, he says it is in the
> > starting material.
>
>How does Pr get into the starting material? And why is it not seen by XPS 
>at the beginning of the run? Explain, please.

Well, the XPS would not be seen at the beginning because the Pr is 
supposedly below the surface. That begs the question: how does it emerge 
later on? I doubt Shanahan can explain that, or much else. He has not yet 
attempted to explain how the Pr could replace Cs atom by atom, keeping the 
total number of atoms the same the whole time to the limits of detection. 
That's a remarkable trick!

Anyway, for details you can read his message at s.p.f. or I can zap you a 
copy if you are unfamiliar with that forum.


. . . Elsewhere, Talbot Chubb told me about an expert in spectroscopy who 
raised a legit concern about Fig. 4 (c). She says the Binding Energy of Cu 
is almost exactly the same as Pr: Cu 931.1, 950.0, Pr 931.0, 951.1, and the 
resolution of this XPS is not good enough to distinguish them. I responded:

This is not a problem because the paper says: "The test piece is removed 
from the chamber and its surface is analyzed by secondary ion mass 
spectrometry (SIMS)." Cu and Pr are miles apart in a SIMS. There is no SIMS 
data in this paper for Pr, but on the other hand it does not 
say  "sometimes analyzed" or "analyzed in the case of Sr => Mo only." It 
would be crazy to do it only sometimes and not mention that in the paper

She had some concerns about molecules being confused with atoms in the 
SIMS, but the paper points out that this SIMS has a new gizmo to separate 
the two (p. 4647).

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 12 20:13:46 2002
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Subject: Re: Iwamura and contamination
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Jed said, representing a hypothetical skeptic


> Mike Carrell wrote:
>
> > > I do not think that is Shanahan's thesis. As I said, he says it is in
the
> > > starting material.
> >
> >How does Pr get into the starting material? And why is it not seen by XPS
> >at the beginning of the run? Explain, please.
>
> Well, the XPS would not be seen at the beginning because the Pr is
> supposedly below the surface.

But all gradients are away from the surface, as I mentioned in the original
text. As for it Pr being in the "original material", the CaO -Pd sandwich
was built up by sputtering, so both CaO and Pd must have been contaminated
by Pr. How does one do this? Presumably the sandwich was also fortuitously
contaminated with Mo of an abnormal isotope distribution. Isn't imagination
wonderful?

That begs the question: how does it emerge
> later on? I doubt Shanahan can explain that, or much else. He has not yet
> attempted to explain how the Pr could replace Cs atom by atom, keeping the
> total number of atoms the same the whole time to the limits of detection.
> That's a remarkable trick!
>
<snip>

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 12 20:14:14 2002
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Jul 12, 2002
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:53:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 12 Jul 02   Washington, DC

1. SPACE STATION: SCIENCE PANEL WANTS TO SEE A LITTLE SCIENCE. 
The International Space Station was sold to Congress as science,
but a $5B budget shortfall halted work on two of the modules and
the crew was cut from 7 to a Mir-sized 3 (WN 9 Nov 01).  It was
that or hire Arthur Anderson to do the accounting.  The need for
budgetary discipline also led to a bean counter from OMB, Sean
O'Keefe replacing Dan Goldin (WN 16 Nov 01).  In March, O'Keefe
named a 20 member panel of scientists-turned-administrators,
mostly from the life sciences, to assess the ISS research
priorities.  The panel reported to the NASA Advisory Council on
Wednesday that there is no research on the ISS to assess.  The
crew of 3 can barely find time to clean the toilet.  So the panel
called for a larger crew, completion of the unfinished modules,
and more resupply missions.  In other words, undo everything done
in March to deal with budget overruns.  What were they thinking? 
It makes no sense to have a research laboratory that does no
research, but $5B is a lot of money.  Do we want to spend triple
the NSF research budget to have a bigger crew?  The only thing
the ISS has going for it is micro-gravity, but decades of micro-
gravity research on the Shuttle and Mir had no discernable impact
on any field of science.  Congress may be in a mood to scrap the
giant money-shredder; scientists should plead with them to do it. 

2. MISCONDUCT: INQUIRY AT BELL LABS IS BROADENED.  The scope of
the investigation into possible data fabrication has expanded to
include four papers dealing with superconductivity.  As with the
dozen or so papers that initiated the inquiry, involving the use
of organic molecules in microelectronics, the lead author on the
novel superconductivity papers was Jan Hendrik Schon.  This is a
trip into unfamiliar territory for physicists, who have seen few
cases of outright fabrication.  However, the Council of the
American Physical Society has issued formal statements dealing
not only with fabrication and plagiarism, but with far more
prevalent forms of misconduct, such as automatic co-authorship of
someone who has made no substantive contribution to the work:
Integrity in Physics  http://www.aps.org/statements/87.1.html
Professional Conduct  http://www.aps.org/statements/91.8.html

3. YUCCA MOUNTAIN: THE DEBATE FINALLY WENT CRITICAL.  By a vote
of 60 to 39, the Senate overrode Nevada's veto of a plan to
consolidate nuclear waste.  There will be court challenges. The
most irresponsible attempt to block the repository came from
physicists.  In 1995 two Los Alamos physicists, who just happened
to favor a plan to transmute fissile waste in an accelerator,
claimed there was a danger that the mountain could go critical. 
The only support for their claim came from physicists at Savannah
River, who just happened to favor vitrification of stored waste.  
                                   
Christy Fernandez assisted with this week's What's New.
THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 15 17:39:08 2002
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test test

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Iwamura and contamination
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 14:52:32 +1000
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:38:13 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>Why does the Cs or Sr mass number increase by 8? Everyone at ICCF-9 
>wondered about this. I know nothing about nuclear physics, but I wonder 
>whether that could that be two alpha particles from some other reaction. 
>But why don't the targets accept only one?

First note that in both experiments, the starting material is a Mills catalyst
(i.e. Cs and Sr). Second note that D not H was used.
Mills postulates the existence of hydrino molecules, which in the case of D
would be the nuclear equivalent of He. However being molecules, they can
also carry a charge. Hence one could envisage a situation where a negatively 
charged molecule was attracted to a positively charged molecule, resulting
in a heavy *neutral* "particle" comprising 4 severely shrunken D's. This would
have a mass of slightly more than 2 helium atoms. 
If this were then to fuse with a Cs nucleus, the reaction would be:-

Cs-133 + 4D -> Pr141 + 50.49 MeV.

>
>What role does the Ca play? 

Perhaps a catalytic role in the assembly of the above shrunken molecules?

>The Cs or Sr do not transmute unless Ca is 
>present, but the Ca is located 400 angstroms below the surface, which is 
>pretty far on the atomic scale. Iwamura selected this depth to make what he 
>calls a "bulk" barrier. The Pd at the surface where the Cs or Sr is located 
>does not appear to transmute. So I suppose a reaction of some sort must be 
>occurring 400 angstroms down below. Why would that affect the Cs or Sr?!? I

Considering other CF experiments in light of Hydrino theory, has led me to
suspect that the actual nuclear reaction happens very fast during the final
shrinkage event. This is because of the exponential dependance of fusion
rates on separation distance. Hence, the catalyst atom itself is frequently
the "target" of the fusion reaction.
(It's not deliberate, it just happens to be close at hand when the
hydrino (deuterino) gets small enough to fuse). Given that in these 
experiments Cs & Sr are the catalysts, they are also the targets, which
is why they are affected.

>have asked three distinguished experts in this field what the Ca does, and 
>they gave me three totally different answers. (Different as far as I can 
>tell.) It makes me feel better about being a rank amateur, knowing that the 
>experts have no clue.

There are no experts on the bleeding edge of science.

>
>Great theory papers answer many questions. Great experimental papers often 
>reveal more mysteries than they resolve.

...but without them there would be no need of the theory papers. ;)


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

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Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:42:22 -0400
To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Iwamura and contamination
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>Hence one could envisage a situation where a negatively charged molecule 
>was attracted to a positively charged molecule, resulting in a heavy 
>*neutral* "particle" comprising 4 severely shrunken D's. This  would have 
>a mass of slightly more than 2 helium atoms.

I cannot comment on the hydrino theory, but here is some utterly naive & 
ignorant speculation about conventional theory. I suppose the particle 
"invading" the Cs or Sr must have a mass of 8 atm. It seems unlikely the Cs 
atoms open up to 2 or 4 particles at one moment, in some kind of exotic 3 
(or 5?) body reaction. As far as I know, the only thing with 8 atm is a 
helium molecule. Obviously, molecules cannot exist in normal, intense 
nuclear reaction. I wonder if some  quiescent state exists, in which the 
coulomb "barrier" relaxes, and lets any drifting particle or molecule 
invade the nucleus. I realize that's preposterous in normal physics.

I put the word "barrier" in quotes because John Bockris says there is no 
such thing -- it is a mere shibboleth.

Many people assume the CF reaction occurs in some sort of microscopic 
version of plasma fusion. There is evidence for this, in vaporized metal 
and so on. And the heat release does correlate with helium production at 
the same rate as hot fusion.

Iwamura's results are so shocking in some ways, I think they are the best 
example in this field so far of an extreme, well defined anomaly that we 
can be certain is actually real. It is a limiting case. Most results are 
mixed in with noise and questionable data, but not these. If a theorist 
find a way to predict Iwamura's result, and he predicts that with element X 
on the surface you will see transmutation type Y and product Z, that theory 
will almost certainly be correct, in my view, or at least it should be 
quite productive.

Naturally, I do not rule out Mills explaining this. More power to him if he 
does.

- Jed

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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Iwamura and contamination
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 08:08:17 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:42:22 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>>Hence one could envisage a situation where a negatively charged molecule 
>>was attracted to a positively charged molecule, resulting in a heavy 
>>*neutral* "particle" comprising 4 severely shrunken D's. This  would have 
>>a mass of slightly more than 2 helium atoms.
>
>I cannot comment on the hydrino theory, but here is some utterly naive & 
>ignorant speculation about conventional theory. I suppose the particle 
>"invading" the Cs or Sr must have a mass of 8 atm. It seems unlikely the Cs 
>atoms open up to 2 or 4 particles at one moment, in some kind of exotic 3 
>(or 5?) body reaction. As far as I know, the only thing with 8 atm is a 
>helium molecule. 

This is why those at the conference had problems. There is no such thing
as a Helium molecule. Helium is a noble gas, and as such doesn't even react
with its own kind. IOW Helium only exists as individual atoms.
Also, if the fusion reaction were due to helium fusing with the Cs, then
one would also expect to see La-137.


>Obviously, molecules cannot exist in normal, intense 
>nuclear reaction. I wonder if some  quiescent state exists, in which the 
>coulomb "barrier" relaxes, and lets any drifting particle or molecule 
>invade the nucleus. I realize that's preposterous in normal physics.

Perhaps not so preposterous. I once put it to Dr. Puthoff, that mass might
vary randomly, and that the value we measure is just an average.
This could mean that for very short intervals of time, the mass of a particle
could approach zero, allowing it to "tunnel".
Mass loss would also result if a charge could be shielded from the ZPE.
<OFF TOPIC>
This may be related to the propulsion mechanism of some UFOs.
(I.e. they may "tunnel" through space, because they would no longer be subject
to mass gain as they approached the speed of light, eliminating this as a 
barrier to speed).
<\OFF TOPIC>


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 17 06:25:42 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Iwamura and contamination
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

>There is no such thing as a Helium molecule. Helium is a noble gas, and as 
>such doesn't even react with its own kind.

Of course. How silly of me to forget that. Still, perhaps they wander in 
loosely bound pairs, like water molecule clusters? Why would they always 
show up in pairs? Ed Storms told me he thinks the answer may be found in a 
nucleus cluster theory such as Ron Brightsen's.

As I said, whatever the answer is, it seems intuitively likely it will shed 
light on the fundamental mechanism of CF. It makes CF seem even more remote 
from plasma fusion.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 17 07:06:11 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Brodzinski criticizes Iwamura 
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Robert Bass circulated some comments by someone named Ronald Brodzinski, 
who is supposedly a world class expert in gamma-ray spectroscopy. He claims 
there is something wrong with Iwamura's experiment, but he does not say 
what the problem might be, beyond the obvious fact that the results appear 
to violate textbook physics. That was clear to everyone including Iwamura 
and me, but we do not think that theory is an adequate basis to reject 
experimentally proven facts.

Brodzinki has some peculiar ideas about the psychology of CF scientists and 
their alleged "closed circle." From my point of view, he is the one with 
psychological problems. He claims that transmutations such as from 
strontium to molybdenum are "of no practical interest to anyone." A truly 
mind boggling statement! That is like looking at Volta's experiments and 
saying "the ability to make dead frog's legs move of no practical interest 
to anyone." How could any trained scientist born after 1750 possibly 
dismiss such a revolutionary phenomenon as being "of no practical 
interest"?!? Iwamura has already demonstrated three different reliable, 
predictable transmutations, including those described in previous papers. 
For all anyone knows, in the fullness of time this technique might lead to 
the mass production of unlimited quantities of any element we need, making 
it one of the most profoundly useful discoveries of all time.

Like many self-satisfied experts, Brodzinki wants Iwamura to do the 
experiment his way. He should do it himself instead. Brodzinki may be an 
expert, but there are many experts at Mitsubishi too. The company 
manufactures these instruments, after all. In-house experts designed and 
built this custom made spectrometer, a job that I doubt Brodzinki would be 
capable of. Another, independent group of experts in France verified the 
results. Iwamura's work has passed Mitsubishi's detailed, severe internal 
peer-review, prevailing over hostile opposition. Brodzinki talks as if 
Iwamura were winging this on his own, acting as a near-amateur in 
spectroscopy, yet the paper makes it clear that many specialists in 
spectroscopy are participating. Although I know practically nothing about 
the subject, I do not take it on faith that Brodzinki's knowledge and his 
proposed methods of doing an experiment he has never seen automatically 
trump the knowledge of experts at Mitsubishi and Probion Analysis, Inc. who 
have been working on this project for ten years or more.

I post this here not because I feel these comments have value, but because 
are typical of establishment reactions. I fear the Iwamura paper will 
little impact because of these misguided reactions.

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

. . . As I said in my first response, I felt the Iwamura protocol was 
relatively well executed. Unfortunately, it generates more questions than 
it answers. I blame the authors for that. They should have seen the obvious 
questions, and found those answers before publishing their work. While we 
don't always tie up all loose ends before publishing, it isn't acceptable 
to have gaping holes.

I haven't done the mass balance calculations yet, but I expect all the 
reactions are energetically allowed. The lack of gamma rays; the lack of 
any other reactions besides 4-deuteron-equivalent capture; and the lack of 
any similar reaction on palladium cannot be excused with the wave of a 
theoretical hand. Nature doesn't operate that way. While Mother Nature may 
be a perverse bitch, she is consistently perverse and doesn't allow for 
these types of singularities. How would Mother Nature know that a palladium 
atom was part of the lattice and not an impurity, and therefore not subject 
to the same interaction? Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Remember, if this 
reaction only changes stable strontium to molybdenum and stable cesium to 
praseodymium, then it is of no practical interest to anyone.

You ask what could be wrong with Iwamura's experiment. The answer is 
plenty. There are an infinite number of ways to do an experiment 
incorrectly, and an even larger number of ways to interpret the results 
incorrectly. I suggested a protocol for conducting the experiment that
would get the attention of the most devout naysayer in the universe. If 
they ran the experiment the way I suggested, and the data supported the 
proposed reaction, I could turn the "establishment" around overnight, and 
get tens of millions of dollars poured on this kind of research in a 
heartbeat. You want to know what I think? I think this cult of CF/LENT 
experimenters and theorists doesn't want that to happen. I think they want 
to stay in their closed circle of friends and pat one another on the back 
for a job well done, when it really hasn't been well done. I think they are 
afraid that if the "establishment" believed in this work, the CF/LENTers 
would be out of a job and out of the limelight, and they really don't want
that to happen. I challenge Iwamura to do the experiment the way I 
suggested, and give me the data.

Ron

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 17 11:03:00 2002
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Subject: Re: Iwamura and contamination
From: "Eugene F. Mallove" <editor infinite-energy.com>
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On 7/17/02 6:21 AM, "Jed Rothwell" <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com> wrote:

> Of course. How silly of me to forget that. Still, perhaps they wander in
> loosely bound pairs, like water molecule clusters? Why would they always
> show up in pairs? Ed Storms told me he thinks the answer may be found in a
> nucleus cluster theory such as Ron Brightsen's.


The aether vortex theory of Arnold Gulko which can systematize nuclear
reactions in cold fusion may be even more apt that Brightsen's intriguing
theory. Infinite Energy published some of Gulko's ideas in issue #34 and
will be publishing more of them.  In general, my feeling about the excellent
Mitsubishi experiment is that it is one of the clearest examples that
"mainstream cold fusion" thinking (yes, there is such a thing) has not been
on the right track about the theoretical foundation of cold fusion.

- Gene Mallove

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 17 11:11:35 2002
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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:10:55 -0400
From: Terry Blanton <commengr bellsouth.net>
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Excellent article on GM's research.  Here's a couple of ticklers:

"The company is also experimenting with replacing the platinum on the 
membranes with hemoglobin, which would radically reduce their cost."

[Fill 'er up and check 'er blood pressure.]

"So the AUTOnomy might prove to be even cheaper than today's cars. But 
as Burns spins it, even if the AUTOnomy turns out to cost more than a 
conventional car, people might be willing to pay more because it will do 
things today's cars cannot - such as last 20 years. As it will have 
almost no moving parts except for the suspension, there will be little 
to wear out, and its owner could simply buy new bodies when styles 
change instead of trading in the whole car. Depending on how cleverly GM 
can engineer the hardware that will hold the body to the chassis, it's 
conceivable you could own both a summer convertible body and a winter 
hardtop, or even slap on the roadster for a Saturday drive and the 
pickup for a run to the dump. The AUTOnomy will accelerate like an F-111 
because its electric motors will deliver instant torque to the wheels. 
It will be silent. The wheels will be controlled independently, allowing 
the car to swivel and move sideways, doing away with the cumbersome 
three-point turn. And like other fuel cell cars, the AUTOnomy will 
generate more than enough juice to power a house, helping you reduce 
reliance on the power grid. "Perhaps they will be mortgaged instead of 
financed like today's cars," Burns muses."

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.08/fuelcellcars.html?pg=1&topic=&topic_set=

Terry




From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 17 11:20:39 2002
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Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:17:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb eskimo.com>
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Can anyone help this guy out?  (note that he's NOT subscribed)

On Wed, 17 Jul 2002, Rix Dobbs <rixdobbs hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hello Mr. Beaty, I have a serious question. I'm prototyping a
> Low-temperature Phase change power plant using Freon r22 working fluid.
> It's a typical Rankin Cycle system; boiler, turbine, condenser,
> resevour, feed pump. I have a Dupont supplied 'enthalpy chart' for R22
> showing pressure in bars on the verticle scale and Kj/Kg on the
> horizontal scale. I don't know how to use this information! I want to
> drive a 1KW winco alternator from thermo-solar 160 degree F water on the
> hot side and 60 degree F swamp cooler water on the cold side. Can you
> help me by explaining how this 'enthalpy chart' relates to my design
> problem? Thanks. Rix Dobbs 919-956-7690


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 17 13:00:43 2002
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Subject: Re: Brodzinski criticizes Iwamura 
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Here is a toned-down rewrite of the message I posted here, a response from 
Brodzinski, and my response to him. Note I copied all three messages to 
Iwamura. This is a typical tit-for-tat exchange with an arrogant skeptic. - JR

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

MY RESPONSE:

Subject: Brodzinski & Volta's dancing frog legs

Dr. Ron Brodzinski, one of the world's leading experts on gamma-ray 
spectroscopy, etc., makes a mind-boggling statement. He claims that 
transmutations demonstrated by Iwamura, such as those from strontium to 
molybdenum are "of no practical interest to anyone."

When Volta first demonstrated the effect of electricity on amputated frog's 
legs, he was ridiculed as "a frog's dancing master." In 1780 people thought 
this was "of no practical interest to anyone." There is no excuse for such 
ignorance today. Iwamura has already demonstrated three reliable 
transmutations, including one in previous papers. Several other scientists, 
including Bockris, Mizuno and Miley, have demonstrated similar 
transmutations. Practical or not, this is profoundly shocking and 
revolutionary, making it "of interest" to every scientist on earth. For all 
anyone can say, this technique may eventually lead to the mass production 
of unlimited quantities of rare elements, making it one of the most useful 
discoveries of all time.

Brodzinski claims he knows how to this experiment better than Iwamura does, 
and he will not be satisfied until Iwamura does it his way. He should do it 
himself, instead. Brodzinski may be an expert, but there are experts at 
Mitsubishi too. The company manufactures these instruments, after all. 
In-house Mitsubishi experts custom built this spectrometer, and operated 
the ICP-MS used to verify results. An independent group of experts in 
France verified with a SIMS. Iwamura's project has repeatedly passed 
Mitsubishi's severe internal peer-review against hostile opposition. 
Brodzinki talks as if Iwamura were winging this on his own, acting as a 
near-amateur in spectroscopy, but the papers make it clear that many 
specialists in spectroscopy have participated in the research. Although I 
know practically nothing about the subject, I do not take it on faith that 
Brodzinski's knowledge automatically trumps the experts at Mitsubishi and 
Probion Analysis, Inc. They have been working on the project for ten years 
or more, whereas Brodzinski has read one paper about it.

Brodzinski suggests there is something wrong with Iwamura's experiment, but 
he does not say what the problem might be. Unless he points to specific 
problems with instruments or methodology (not theory), his argument cannot 
be challenged or falsified, and therefore it has no substance. He points 
out the obvious fact that Iwamura's results appear to violate textbook 
physics. That is clear to everyone, but we do not think theory is an 
adequate basis to reject replicated, high-sigma experimental evidence. The 
late Julian Schwinger and other distinguished scientists say this evidence 
does not conflict with theory, despite appearances. If it does conflict, 
however, textbook theory must be wrong, or incomplete, or a special case 
that does not apply to certain metal lattices. High sigma replicated 
evidence always prevails over theory. This is self-evident and fundamental 
to the scientific method.

- Jed Rothwell

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:30:41 -0700
From: "Brodzinski, Ronald L" <ron.brodzinski pnl.gov>
Subject: RE: Brodzinski & Volta's dancing frog legs

Yes, I do know how to do the experiment better than Iwamura. That is why 
Mitsubishi has paid me as a consultant for years.

I didn't say Iwamura's results were wrong. I said expected results are missing.

Doing the same experiment, and getting the same result, a half-dozen times 
does not constitute confirmation of an event. Doing it a different way, and 
getting the same result, does. Do it my way, and if you get a positive 
result you can book your ticket to Stockholm. If you want me to do the 
experiment, pay me to do it just like everybody else does.

Ron

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

You wrote:

>Yes, I do know how to do the experiment better than Iwamura.  That is why 
>Mitsubishi has paid me as a consultant for years.

Who did you work with at Mitsubishi, in which department? Based on your 
experience there, do you have good reason to think the experts at the 
M.H.I. Advanced Tech. Research Center are incapable of detecting or 
distinguishing between Cs, Pr, Sr and Mo? If so, please explain why. I will 
forward your message to Iwamura (who is copied in this message).

Have you also consulted with Probion Analysis, Inc? Do you have reason to 
think these experts have also made profound mistakes identifying these 
elements, or accidentally introducing contamination? I say "profound" 
because although I know little about spectroscopy, I have been told that it 
is not difficult to distinguish between these elements in these 
concentrations. This job does not call for world-class experts such as 
yourself. Ordinary technicians should be able to do it.

If you have a specific reason for thinking there is a problem detecting 
these elements, and this problem somehow affects the XPS, ICP-MS and the 
SIMS in common, please tell us what that problem is. As I said, an appeal 
to nuclear theory does not count. Textbook theory about how fusion 
reactions in plasma occur has no bearing on the performance of these 
instruments. You cannot disprove experimental results by appealing to 
theory, except when the theory applies to the instruments.


>I didn't say Iwamura's results were wrong.  I said expected results are
>missing.

When you say "expected results" I presume you mean the lack of gamma rays. 
These results are not expected. Thousands of other cold fusion experiments 
in have produced heat beyond the limits of chemistry, tritium and helium, 
but very few have produced gamma rays, and none in the proportions observed 
in plasma fusion. As Schwinger said, "the circumstances of cold fusion are 
not those of hot fusion." You also list "the lack of any other reactions 
beside the 4-deuteron-equivalent capture." Other reactions may be 
occurring, but this experiment was not designed to detect any others, so 
your point does not apply.


>Doing the same experiment, and getting the same result, a half-dozen times 
>does not constitute confirmation of an event.

Iwamura et al. have done the experiment more than 50 times I believe, over 
more than ten years, as I noted. They have used two completely different 
methods, and several different types of spectroscopy. I suggest you review 
his papers more carefully before commenting. You give the impression you 
are jumping to conclusions and casually dismissing a body of work that 
several profession scientists have devoted a large fraction of their career to.


>Doing it a different way, and getting the same result, does.

We all agree. That is why Iwamura et al. and others have done it different 
ways, and used different instrument types.


>Do it my way, and if you get a positive result you can book your ticket to 
>Stockholm.

I suggest you define "your way" in more detail, and copy the message to 
Iwamura.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 17 16:47:51 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Re: Iwamura and contamination
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Eugene F. Mallove wrote:

>In general, my feeling about the excellent Mitsubishi experiment is that 
>it is one of the clearest examples that "mainstream cold fusion" thinking 
>(yes, there is such a thing) has not been on the right track about the 
>theoretical foundation of cold fusion.

Some of the mainstream theorists, including Hagelstein and the Chubbs, tell 
me they are not terribly upset or baffled by Iwamura's results. It remains 
to be seen whether CF can or cannot be explained by anyone, mainstream or 
otherwise. If it turns out conventional theories can explain these results, 
and they make useful predictions, then we will have no need to turn to more 
exotic or unconventional ideas based on aether or shrinking hydrogen. On 
the other hand, if the unconventional ideas turn out to work better, they 
will win instead. It is inherently impossible to predict now. It is like 
guessing whether a coin will turn up heads or tails. By definition, we do 
not have enough information yet, since no theory has produced useful 
predictions. We may never have enough information.

To explain any given phenomenon, there may be two, three or more theories 
that all "work" in important ways, and that continue to be used by 
different groups of people in parallel. They are all, literally, correct. 
As Murchie pointed out, navigators still use the Ptolemaic system. It is 
correct because it works well for their purposes. As long as a theory 
"works," it makes no difference whether it is current or obsolete; wide 
ranging or applicable to a special case; mainstream or unconventional. 
There is no merit or advantage to any of these options. Empirical 
philosophers beginning with Locke argued -- correctly in my opinion -- 
there can be no meaningful difference between competing theories when they 
all "work." There is no absolute standard upon which we can rank them. 
Ptolemy was right -- literally so. He still is, and he always will be. The 
sun does go around the earth once a day. It makes no sense to say this is 
"wrong." It is merely less useful for some purposes, and less elegant than 
the modern construct that the earth is turning.

All theories are incorrect, incomplete and approximate. All are provisional 
and temporary. They will be even if we progress for another million years. 
No human construct can begin to cope with more than a tiny fraction of all 
there is to learn. Any theory will eventually become obsolete.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 17 18:18:22 2002
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Subject: Re: Iwamura and contamination
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Jed wrote:

> Some of the mainstream theorists, including Hagelstein and the Chubbs,
tell
> me they are not terribly upset or baffled by Iwamura's results. It remains
> to be seen whether CF can or cannot be explained by anyone, mainstream or
> otherwise.

My prediction is that within twenty years or so the quantum mechanics
textbooks will not explain how LENR is explained by QM, but rather, how QM
_mandates_ LENR.

Jeff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 17 18:42:01 2002
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Subject: Re: Brodzinski criticizes Iwamura 
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Jed,

Good reply and you asked him the right questions, particularly about who it
was he worked with (or for) at Mitsubishi--I did a Google search on the
guy--he turns up a paucity of hits (geez--even I get three or four times as
many).  No doubt he's competent in his field, but a "world's leading
expert?"--that's a bit inflated.  I couldn't find any references to any
papers he's written (unless they're buried  deeper than my casual survey
would detect).  This doesn't mean he hasn't written any, of course, but he
doesn't seem to be cited much.

The fellow might be able to design a better set of detectors for some of the
transmutation products--this does seem to be his area of expertise, but his
claim : "Yes, I do know how to do the experiment better than Iwamura," is
pure eyewash unless he has actually done this experiment.

Jeffery D. Kooistra

----- Original Message -----
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
To: <vortex-L eskimo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: Brodzinski criticizes Iwamura


> Here is a toned-down rewrite of the message I posted here, a response from
> Brodzinski, and my response to him. Note I copied all three messages to
> Iwamura. This is a typical tit-for-tat exchange with an arrogant
skeptic. - JR
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> MY RESPONSE:
>
> Subject: Brodzinski & Volta's dancing frog legs
>
> Dr. Ron Brodzinski, one of the world's leading experts on gamma-ray
> spectroscopy, etc., makes a mind-boggling statement. He claims that
> transmutations demonstrated by Iwamura, such as those from strontium to
> molybdenum are "of no practical interest to anyone."


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 17 20:04:25 2002
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Subject: Re: Brodzinski criticizes Iwamura 
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Jeff Kooistra wrote:
>...  No doubt he's competent in his field, but a "world's leading
>expert?"--that's a bit inflated.  I couldn't find any references to any
>papers he's written (unless they're buried  deeper than my casual survey
>would detect).  This doesn't mean he hasn't written any, of course, but he
>doesn't seem to be cited much.

I did a quick search on Inspec and his name "Brodinski-RL" turns up 110
(peer reviewed professional journal) papers, which is quite a significant
number.  I took a quick look through and he is mostly listed in alphabetical
order with a bunch of about 20 others (which makes it hard to determine the
importance of his contribution - but that is always the way with big
experiments).


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 18 09:24:26 2002
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To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>, <Ron.Brodzinski@pnl.gov>
Subject: Re: Not All Deuterons are Created Equal?
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In the Proton-Proton Reaction:

P + P ---> D +  e+  +  neutrino  + ~1.5 Mev

In this reaction an Electron-Positron Pair and a Neutrino-Antineutrino Pair Must be
Created in order to form the Neutron portion of the Deuteron which consists of a
Proton (3 quarks) plus the absorbed antineutrino and the electron. The e+ annihilates
with one of the electrons of the Protons.

OTOH, in Proton-Electron-Proton Reaction:

P-e-P ----> D + neutrino +  ~1.0 Mev

In this reaction a Neutrino-Antineutrino Pair Must be Created to form the Neutron
portion of the Deuteron.

Suppose that in one of the reactions the Neutrino Is Not Expelled?

Would this explain the so-called "Missing Neutrino Problem", and also Low Energy
Deuteron Stripping, and
the LENR Reaction, D + D* --->  He4 + neutrino* + ~24 Mev?

Might this make Ron Brodzinski Happy?   :-)

Regards,    Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 18 09:27:18 2002
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: The future of LENR theories
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Jeff Kooistra wrote:

>My prediction is that within twenty years or so the quantum mechanics
>textbooks will not explain how LENR is explained by QM, but rather, how QM 
>_mandates_ LENR.

I do not know enough about QM or nuclear physics to judge. However, I 
gather that the Mills theory conflicts with QM. Suppose for the sake of 
argument it turns out the Mills theory can also explain LENR, and it works 
equally well, making useful predictions. Or imagine Mills works well for 
LENR in a limited range of applications. It works with these gas phase 
rocket gadgets NASA is trying to produce, but it fails to explain why 
solid-state LENR produces helium commensurate with plasma fusion. In that 
case, QM will be simultaneously true and not true, essential and optional.

This is not unrealistic. Mutually exclusive theories have coexisted for 
long periods, and some still do. As long as that situation continues, there 
is no basis to declare one theory is right and the other one is wrong. That 
is why I think Mallove's prediction about the outcome of the cold fusion 
theory debates is premature and -- strictly in philosophical terms -- 
meaningless. He may turn out to be both right and wrong, perhaps for 
decades. It is not humanly possible to predict which theory will prevail, 
or whether several will prevail even though they contradict one another. 
There is no guarantee that nature will "make sense" or form a coherent 
picture. Actually, Kuhn and others have made a compelling case that this 
cannot happen, and we never resolve all contradictions or decide which 
competing theory is right.

This may sound a little irrational. It resembles the trendy 1920s 
"relativism" (inspired by Einstein's theory), or today's vapid cultural 
relativism (inspired by anthropology). But it has been part of Western 
philosophy since John Locke (1632 - 1704). Many scientists are absolutists 
and fail to appreciate this subtle idea. As I pointed out earlier, the 
Ptolemaic theory is correct and still in use for limited applications. I 
mean it is literally true: the sun does go around the earth. That is a 
useful observation, and Ptolemy was a giant improvement over the previous 
flat earth model. Most scientists would indignantly deny this, as would 
most ordinary folks.

What I am trying to say is that until one theory becomes completely 
obsolete and no longer used for any purpose, an argument over which 
competing theory is "best" is meaningless, unresolvable, and without 
philosophic basis. The question does not remain unresolved because it is a 
matter of opinion, or because we are ignorant. The question itself has no 
logical content. The only measure of "rightness" in theory is usefulness. 
As long as anyone, anywhere uses a theory to get a result with the 
precision he requires, that theory remains valid. The Bible supposedly 
claims that the value of Pi is three (3.0, not 3.14). That is "right" 
because it is close enough for the tasks many people did in primitive, 
biblical societies, such as estimating how long a rope they needed to reach 
around a log.

Naturally, I refer to arcane, formal logic, not daily life. In the 
classroom or the laboratory, we agree that Copernicus was "more right" than 
Ptolemy.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 18 11:24:12 2002
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Subject: Re: The future of LENR theories
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Before anyone else says it, let me say I know there are many other criteria 
used to judge "rightness" in theory, such as how well the theory fits in 
with other theories, how elegant it is, how broadly applicable and so on. 
However, from a strictly formal, philosophical point of view, these other 
criteria have no bearing on whether a theory is "right" in the sense that 
it reflects the true nature of reality. A perverse, crabbed, illogical or 
otherwise unsatisfying theory might turn out to work better -- that is, it 
might predict events more accurately -- than an elegant rival theory.

Elegance or a good fit with other ideas are desirable because they help us 
remember and use theories. They are convenient to us. There is no reason to 
think the universe is actually unified, elegant, intuitively 
understandable, or constructed in way that we would find pleasing if we had 
some God-like means of grasping its true nature. (Such means are 
impossible, even in principle.) It might be perverse. If it were 
understandable, I suppose atoms would be the smallest unit of matter and we 
would not be faced with a weird menagerie of sub-atomic particles and 
sub-sub-atomic quarks or 11-dimensional strings. Perhaps we find it 
pleasing because of the way *we* are constructed. This resembles the 
illusion our ancestors came up with, that "the earth was made for man" 
because food, sunlight and so on are optimal. We now know it was the other 
way around: man was made to fit the earth.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 18 11:27:03 2002
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Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:19:27 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: Rothwell makes offer that Brodzinski can't say 'yes' to
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I sent the following message to Brodzinski, offering to help him run the 
isotope analysis Probion Analysis did on Iwamura's materials. Based on my 
experience with Huizenga and other hard-core skeptics, I predict we will 
never hear another peep out of Brodzinski. These people are not fools. 
Brodzinski knows as well as I do that this is a trap, and an offer he 
cannot accept. He knows he would find the same isotope shift Probion 
Analysis did. He knows that a mistake on this scale, with three different 
spectrometer types is out of the question, and any qualified SIMS operator 
will find the same results. That would leave him two equally unpalatable 
options:

1. Lie about his results, and come up with a cockamamie story about a 
mistake made by Mitsubishi and Probion Analysis. This would upset 
Mitsubishi and Probion Analysis. They might demand a closer look at his 
data, which he would then have to doctor up or "lose." It would be a tar baby.

2. Tell the truth, and see his reputation and career destroyed by anti-cold 
fusion fanatics. No U.S. scientist can report positive CF results and keep 
his job. Huizenga and Brodzinski know that!

- Jed

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Subject: You could verify isotopes, the way Probion Analysis did

I have an idea that might clear up this issue to everyone's satisfaction. 
You are well positioned to make a major contribution to the field with 
little effort on your part. You have credibility and a working relationship 
with Mitsubishi already. Why don't you ask them to send one of the used 
samples with Mo? You could verify the unnatural isotope distribution shown 
in Figure 10. (Or show it was a mistake.) I presume that would convince you 
the effect is real.

In your first message you said "the Iwamura protocol was relatively well 
executed." But in your most recent message you have changed your mind and 
you now think the experiment was not satisfactory: "you and I are miles 
apart on what constitutes good experimental data." Evidently you are not 
satisfied with the spectroscopy at Mitsubishi and Probion Analysis, for 
reasons we have not discussed. It seems to me you should demonstrate how do 
the analysis correctly. If this large group of researchers in two countries 
has gone astray, and they are making a serious error, you can save them 
years of effort.

If you would like to do this, I suggest you get in touch with both Iwamura 
and your existing contact in the company. As you know, in Japan an 
established relationship smoothes things over.

If cost is an issue, and you are not authorized to do an isotope analysis 
for free, I might be able to arrange payment. Let me know if I can be of 
any assistance.

- Jed 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 18 11:59:23 2002
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Subject: For LENR.org, I need Acrobat Type 1 (.pfm) fonts
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For a complicated reason, I need some Acrobat Type 1 fonts, with the .pfm 
or .pfb extension, on a Win 2000 computer. I need three fonts equivalent to 
Times New Roman, Arial, and Courier, or a tool to convert .ttf fonts to the 
.pfm format. They have to have a full set of Greek letters and arithmetic 
symbols such as <= (st.eq) and +- (plus or minus). I spent a lot of time 
searching the web for this without success. I would appreciate assistance, 
or just e-mail me the fonts.

Also anyone who would like to assist proofreading the papers to be uploaded 
to LENR.org should contact me by private e-mail.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 18 15:09:20 2002
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The UK's first biomass power station goes on line:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/england/newsid_2135000/2135431.stm

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 19 08:52:51 2002
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 . . . or so says Dr. Oliver Manuel:

http://www.newswise.com/articles/2002/7/SUNIRON.UMR.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 19 13:54:01 2002
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Jul 19, 2002
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:38:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 19 Jul 02   Washington, DC

1. MISCONDUCT: MAYBE THE DISEASE IS BEING SPREAD BY MOSQUITOS.  
Following a year-long internal investigation, Lawrence Berkeley
National Laboratory has fired a physicist, Victor Ninov, for
fabricating data in the 1999 "discovery" of elements 118 and 116
and formally retracted the Physical Review Letter that announced
the discovery (V. Ninov et al. PRL 83, 1104; 1999).  The physics
community was already in shock over the investigation of Jan
Schoen at Bell Labs, who had seemed to be a rising star, for
allegedly fabricating results (WN 24 May 02).  In both cases,
questions are now being raised about other work (WN 24 May 02).
This raises serious questions for the physics community and the
APS in particular.  If instances of misconduct now turn up in
other work published by the two, the boast that "the system
worked" won't fly.  The responsibility of coauthors also needs to
be clarified.  While Ninov and Schoen were first authors on the
papers in question, they had as many as 15 coauthors.  Does being
an "et al." mean you have certified a paper's validity?

2. MASSAGING: SOMETIMES A MASSAGE MAKES YOU A DIFFERENT PERSON.
According to the New York Times, Lee Schroeder, an LBNL official,
characterized Ninov's misconduct as "some data had been
massaged."  It's not the first time this soft word has been used
at LBNL to describe fabrication of data.  A biophysicist named
Robert Liburdy who had played a prominent role in the debate over
whether power lines are linked to cancer, was the only scientist
who could find direct evidence that EMF has any effect on living
cells.  In 1995, however, the APS "Statement on Power Line Fields
and Public Health," http://aps.org/statements/95.2.html , pointed
out there simply was no plausible interaction mechanism.  After
the APS issued its statement, LBNL initiated an investigation of
the Liburdy claim.  Finally, in 1999, Robert Liburdy was fired
for "massaging" data.  Liburdy acknowledged that he had omitted
some data for "illustration purposes," but in one case
investigators found he had omitted 93 percent of the data that
did not agree with his hypothesis.  To call that a "massage" is
like calling Michael Jackson's cosmetic alterations a "nose job."

3. MEDDLING: NCI CAVES IN TO CONGRESSIONAL ABORTION OPPONENTS.  A
key weapon of abortion opponents is that abortions are linked to 
an increase in breast cancer.  But Science reports this week that
NCI revised its Fact Sheet in March, pointing out that current
scientific evidence finds no increased risk for women who have
had an abortion.  However, 28 abortion opponents in Congress, led
by Rep. Chris Smith (R-NJ), sent a letter to HHS Secretary Tommy
Thompson saying that in their scientific opinion the scientists
at NCI had it just backwards.  WN obtained a copy of the letter.
Barbara Cubin was the only one with a science degree (BS Chem). 

Christy Fernandez assisted with this week's What's New.
THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the author's and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 19 16:18:19 2002
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Here's an interesting trick.  It detects the Earth's vertical e-field by
generating a cloud of ions near an electrode via radioactivity, then
measuring the electric current produced by the sky-field.  Mixing the ash
from burned lantern mantels with epoxy!  What fun!

  Homebrew Lightning Detector
  http://www.matchrockets.com/earth/lightning.html


That device should create high voltage at low current, discharging the
Earth's capacitor and extracting usable energy without needing a huge
"Jefimenko tower."  I wonder if a large number of razor blades and
radioactive powder could allow the sky-field run an electrostatic motor?


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 19 18:58:36 2002
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Subject: Magnetics group.
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Hi.

Came across this site today and thought you'd all find
it to your collective liking.

http://www.tcd.ie/Physics/Magnetism/magelectrochem.html

I've done variations on experiment #2, electrodeposition
with magnetic fields. I used phenothalein as an indicated
and found substantial pH variations, which I presumed caused
the morphological changes I noted. It is critical to control pH
for electrodeposition. 

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 19 19:59:51 2002
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Subject: Gravity idea
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	Dear Folks,

	Can anyone either point to a good reference or off thetop of the
head let us know the predicited effects of gravity on time, and other
effects on time, according to the standard thinking in relativity?

	Time is faster or slower in:

	more gravity
	more acceleration

	Any others?
			Thanks....

								J

	PS:	I don't seem to be able to call to mind the conventional
thinking....  I THOUGHT IT WAS:

	reduced gravity = slower time
	no acceleration = same mass = same time
	accelleration = more mass = greater gravity = faster time
	

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 19 20:47:53 2002
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From: "Hoyt A. Stearns Jr." <hoyt-stearns cox.net>
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Terry Blanton wrote:
> 
>  . . . or so says Dr. Oliver Manuel:
> 
> http://www.newswise.com/articles/2002/7/SUNIRON.UMR.html

Interesting--
Dewey Larson's Reciprocal System has long advocated that the sun is
powered by heavy elements in the core. Each has a thermal destructive
limit
temperature where it spontaneously converts to radiant energy.  When the 
temperature reaches the limit for iron, a supernova results.

See:

http://www.reciprocalsystem.com/rs/cwkvk/sunpart1.htm

Since the core is currently below that temperature, it's "burning" lead
and
other heavy elements.

Hoyt Stearns
Scottsdale, Arizona

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 22 05:34:24 2002
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To: "Colin Quinney" <crquin rogers.com>, <jonesb9@pacbell.net>,
        <Vortex-l eskimo.com>, <jlsparber@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Water Power
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Hi Colin,

The Russian ou work:

http://web.archive.org/web/20011125131344/http://weinfelden.innoplaza.net/


smacks of Mills' Hydrino (H*)

http://www.blacklightpower.com

 work that suggests that the Hydrogen Atom Nucleus (Proton) can have an electron drop
to a radius 1/137th of the 5.29E-11 meter 13.6 ev Bohr Orbit, i.e., 3.86E-13 meters or
1863 ev.

IOW, it can give off 137 times as much energy as the 13.6 ev photon  if the electron
drops to the lower fractional Bohr orbit and forms a Hydrino.

Starting out with water (H-O-H steam) in an electrical discharge and breaking the
bonds to end up with an Electron-Proton Pair:

1, H-O-H + 5.17 ev energy <---> O-H  +  H

2, H + 13.6 ev energy <--->  P +  e-

Or

3, P + e-  ---->  H* +  1836 ev

This might give an average energy multiplier of 1500 percent (~ 15x )  under the right
conditions for a given experiment.

OTOH, the deuterons obtained by using D2O (D-O-D) might give Cold Fusion reactions.

Regards,       Frederick



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From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin rogers.com>
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 Hi Fred,

Kanarev may be running it similar to the Ohmori-Mizuno cell. See below.

Kanarev's book in English can be ordered at 50 dollars. In Russian,
 you can freely download the book, "WATER- NEW POWER SOURCE"

from:  http://ikar.udm.ru/sb11e.htm

and translate any portion of it on the Internet. ("Contents" section is in
English)

WATER - NEW POWER SOURCE
 Kanarev Ph.M.
 (sb11-1.zip - 1185 kB - in Russian)

 (TRANSLATION of pdf, Section 9.2)
Fig. 32. schematic of plazmoelektroliticheskogo reactor.2:the 1- housing of
 reactor, the 2- cover/cap of reactor, the 3- anode, 4- cathode (inlet
pipe),
 5- bushing, 6- exhaust, the 7- interelectrode chamber

Anode 3 it is desirable to prepare from titanium, covered with oxide of
 ruthenium (unit vector) or simply from titanium.Hollow cathode 4 is
prepared
 from molybdenum.

(NOTE: The cathode appears to be 10 X surface area of the Anode.)

----------------------------------------------

Dr. Peter G. report (below) mentions COP's of 1.42 and 1.82 yet Dr. K.
report of COP 10 to 15 is much higher than that. I must assume Kanarev is
either running it at resonance and/or including NET energy generation of RF,
light, noise, heat, and gas with a more advanced resonant plasma-electric
unit. Infinite Energy also has several articles by Kanarev, but I have not
read them.

 ====================================

 FROM:
Infinite Energy Device Updates
 Published in IE Volume 4, Issue #22.
 November, 1998.
http://www.mv.com/ipusers/zeropoint/IEHTML/DEVICEUPD/22issdevupd.html


" Further adding to the mix of results, we received a highly positive paper
 from Dr. Phyllip Kanarev in Russia, in which he runs the electrolyte
 continuously through an active cell that appears to be like Ohmori-Mizuno,
 but which uses a cathode of molybdenum and an anode of titanium. He gets
 consistent excess power results (see report, translated by Dr. Peter Gluck
 on page 31. COP's of 1.42 and 1.82 were measured. The report is endorsed by
 a committee of the faculty of Kuban State University.)"

  ====================================

 Professor P. M. Kanarev's Books and Lectures
 http://web.archive.org/web/20011116235038/guns.connect.fi/innoplaza/
energy/story/Kanarev/index.html

(cut and paste above overflow)


 ====================================

Best,
Colin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Frederick Sparber" <fjsparber earthlink.net>
To: "Colin Quinney" <crquin rogers.com>; <jonesb9@pacbell.net>;
<Vortex-l eskimo.com>; <jlsparber@earthlink.net>
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 7:26 AM
Subject: Re: Water Power


> Hi Colin,
>
> The Russian ou work:
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/20011125131344/http://weinfelden.innoplaza.net/
>
>
> smacks of Mills' Hydrino (H*)
>
> http://www.blacklightpower.com
>
>  work that suggests that the Hydrogen Atom Nucleus (Proton) can have an
electron drop
> to a radius 1/137th of the 5.29E-11 meter 13.6 ev Bohr Orbit, i.e.,
3.86E-13 meters or
> 1863 ev.
>
> IOW, it can give off 137 times as much energy as the 13.6 ev photon  if
the electron
> drops to the lower fractional Bohr orbit and forms a Hydrino.
>
> Starting out with water (H-O-H steam) in an electrical discharge and
breaking the
> bonds to end up with an Electron-Proton Pair:
>
> 1, H-O-H + 5.17 ev energy <---> O-H  +  H
>
> 2, H + 13.6 ev energy <--->  P +  e-
>
> Or
>
> 3, P + e-  ---->  H* +  1836 ev
>
> This might give an average energy multiplier of 1500 percent (~ 15x )
under the right
> conditions for a given experiment.
>
> OTOH, the deuterons obtained by using D2O (D-O-D) might give Cold Fusion
reactions.
>
> Regards,       Frederick
>



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 22 09:25:05 2002
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From: "Colin Quinney" <crquin rogers.com>
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> (NOTE: The cathode appears to be 10 X surface area of the Anode.)

should read: "The cathode appears to be 1/10th surface area of the Anode".


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 22 15:19:15 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Water Power
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:15:17 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Colin Quinney's message of Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:15:43 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
> FROM:
>Infinite Energy Device Updates
> Published in IE Volume 4, Issue #22.
> November, 1998.
>http://www.mv.com/ipusers/zeropoint/IEHTML/DEVICEUPD/22issdevupd.html
>
>
>" Further adding to the mix of results, we received a highly positive paper
> from Dr. Phyllip Kanarev in Russia, in which he runs the electrolyte
> continuously through an active cell that appears to be like Ohmori-Mizuno,
> but which uses a cathode of molybdenum and an anode of titanium. He gets
> consistent excess power results (see report, translated by Dr. Peter Gluck
> on page 31. COP's of 1.42 and 1.82 were measured. The report is endorsed by
> a committee of the faculty of Kuban State University.)"
[snip]
Food for thought:

Ti++ (a common oxidation state for Ti) is a Mills catalyst, as may be Mo++ (also a common oxidation state for Mo).


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 22 15:31:19 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Water Power
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:26:56 +1000
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In reply to  Frederick Sparber's message of Mon, 22 Jul 2002 06:26:52 -0500:
Hi,
>Hi Colin,
>
>The Russian ou work:
>
>http://web.archive.org/web/20011125131344/http://weinfelden.innoplaza.net/
>
>
>smacks of Mills' Hydrino (H*)
>
>http://www.blacklightpower.com
>
> work that suggests that the Hydrogen Atom Nucleus (Proton) can have an electron drop
>to a radius 1/137th of the 5.29E-11 meter 13.6 ev Bohr Orbit, i.e., 3.86E-13 meters or
>1863 ev.

Actually Mills predicts that the energy goes as the inverse square of the radius (due to charge creation), so shrinkage to 1/137 leads to an energy release of (((137)^2)-1)*13.6 eV = 255244.8 eV (half of the electron rest mass). I get a similar result, but assume that the radius goes as the inverse square of the quantum number, and no charge creation takes place.

>
>IOW, it can give off 137 times as much energy as the 13.6 ev photon  if the electron
>drops to the lower fractional Bohr orbit and forms a Hydrino.

....make that 18768 times.

>
>Starting out with water (H-O-H steam) in an electrical discharge and breaking the
>bonds to end up with an Electron-Proton Pair:
>
>1, H-O-H + 5.17 ev energy <---> O-H  +  H
>
>2, H + 13.6 ev energy <--->  P +  e-
>
>Or
>
>3, P + e-  ---->  H* +  1836 ev
>
>This might give an average energy multiplier of 1500 percent (~ 15x )  under the right
>conditions for a given experiment.

Even if the 1836 eV had been correct, I believe this should have been 10000%.

>
>OTOH, the deuterons obtained by using D2O (D-O-D) might give Cold Fusion reactions.

Shrunken deuterons have a tendency to do that. ;)

>
>Regards,       Frederick
>
>

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 23 16:32:13 2002
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Subject: geomagnetic sensing equipment
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I'm wondering if anyone has any experience or information on 
equipment sensitive enough to measure variations in the Earth's field 
at ground level.  This is for an experiment on a variety of 
dowse-able phenomenon.



thanks
-Zak

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 23 18:45:54 2002
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On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Tz'Akh wrote:

> I'm wondering if anyone has any experience or information on
> equipment sensitive enough to measure variations in the Earth's field
> at ground level.  This is for an experiment on a variety of
> dowse-able phenomenon.

Use a magnetometer!  Treasure hunters use metal detectors, but they also
use earth-field magnetometers to look for buried iron objects.

See:

  Phil's magnetometers & prospecting
  http://members.aol.com/phil770/index.html

  Magnetometer forum
  http://www.thunting.com/cgi-bin/geotech/forum/view.cgi?action=index&forum=mag

  Proton magnetometer hobbyist links
  http://amasci.com/amasci.html#am2

  Fat Quarters Electronics (cheap fluxgate stuff)
  http://www.fatquarterssoftware.com/products.htm

The last link has magnetometer kits (measure earth's field) and
gradiometer kits (measure distortions in earth's field while ignoring
the field itself.)



(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 23 19:17:07 2002
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The preliminary work by Karanov (sp?) showed ou at about 150% to 180% for an
electrolysis cell.

The input power is battery/cell volts times cell amps which is compared to cell heat
rise.

But, an alkali compound "crud" deposited on the cathode of the cell can act as a
battery that sees the same series current, but puts a higher potential across the
electrolyte,which gives an ou indication. It's still free energy, No?

This technology was/is used in vacuum tube emitter design using alkali compounds on
nickel etc. to increase the thermionic emission of electrons. A area of research that
Ed Storms is well versed in.   :-)

This "Monolayer Stack" reminiscent of Volta's voltaic pile
could build up field intensities high enough to effect CF.

Regards,     Frederick



From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 24 12:09:08 2002
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This is an interesting change in position by Dr. Tarter (the role model 
for Jodie Foster's character in "Contact"):

http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=1772

SETI Says ET May Be Here
24-Jul-2002

Dr. Jill Tarter, long-time director of SETI, has announced a reversal of 
decades of official policy. She has now stated clearly that finding 
evidence of ET activity in our solar system should not be considered 
unthinkable.

Tarter told Space.com that she believes extraterrestrials could be 
present in our solar system. Her comments were made in a discussion 
about Fermi's Paradox, which states that, if there are extraterrestrials 
in the galaxy, then they must have colonized it. But there is no 
evidence of their presence here, therefore the implication is that they 
don't exist. Tarter says, "I would claim that we don't know that...We've 
so poorly explored even the local neighborhood of our solar system that 
there could well be probes, artifacts, even large, slow ships within our 
solar system that we wouldn't have detected yet. It's possible that 
there could be, in fact, within our solar system some evidence of an 
extraterrestrial technology. They may be here."

Dr. Tarter doesn't believe they're "abducting Aunt Sally," but she does 
make the surprising comment that there have been attempts to find ships 
that might be on long-term station in our solar system at points of 
minimal gravity, using both reflected light and radar observation.

There are many places where large ships could be located that would be 
very difficult for us to detect, such as in the asteroid belt or the 
rings of Saturn. They would be virtually indistinguishable from local 
objects if hidden in such places.

Tarter's comments reflect an increasing openness among astronomers to 
the idea that an extraterrestrial presence in our solar system isn't 
impossible. This is because the assumptions in Drake's Equation, which 
basically says that extraterrestrial life would be extremely rare, are 
being called into question by the large number of planets that are being 
discovered orbiting other stars.

<end>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 24 13:32:46 2002
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From: Erikbaard aol.com
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Subject: Re: [OT]  ET Might be Here
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Not to toot my own horn, but you might find this article interesting.  In it 
researchers posit the same thing, that probes might already be here but so 
small that we couldn't possible detect them:

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/mech_intelligence_000815.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 24 13:46:58 2002
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Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:46:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Schnurer <herman antioch-college.edu>
To: Vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Dot.....times
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	Dear Vo.,


	I read a dicussion and one fellow writes

	"force DOT distance"

	and another writes "force TIMES distance"


	What is the drift here?


	Please.			
			J



























































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John Schnurer wrote:

>	Dear Vo.,
>
>
>	I read a dicussion and one fellow writes
>
>	"force DOT distance"
>
>	and another writes "force TIMES distance"
>
>
>	What is the drift here?
>
>
>	Please.			
>	
>

DOT is usually used to describe matrix multiplication.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 24 15:55:27 2002
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: [OT]  ET Might be Here
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 19:06:24 -0400
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Forget about ET.

We can't even find Osama Bin Laden.

Or the anthrax guy, for that matter.

Perhaps we should send a probe to Washington and
search for intelligent life there????

K.

-----Original Message-----
From: Erikbaard aol.com [mailto:Erikbaard@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 4:29 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OT] ET Might be Here


Not to toot my own horn, but you might find this article interesting.  In it
researchers posit the same thing, that probes might already be here but so
small that we couldn't possible detect them:

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/mech_intelligence_000815.html

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 24 16:01:18 2002
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> John Schnurer wrote:

> > "force DOT distance"
> >
> > and another writes "force TIMES distance"
> >
> >
> > What is the drift here?

> DOT is usually used to describe matrix multiplication.

I would have thought the reference was simply to the vector "dot product",
that being in this case, force times distance times the cosine of the angle
between the two vectors.  In simple cases, when the angle is zero, this
reduces to force times distance since cos 0 = 1.

Jeff

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 25 01:02:25 2002
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Subject: Re: [OT]  ET Might be Here
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Aside from the fact that Terry Blanton himself is good enough evidence of an alien presence for most of us <g>, nanobacteria also seem interesting to me at the moment. They've got that nice hard shell that keeps 'em cozy in harsh environments, and they show up in the strangest of places. From what I gather from the net, *without* filtering for fringe theory, there seems to be evidence that they are responsible for the following: 

alzheimer's
arthritis
MS (continue list of inflammatory diseases...)
arteriosclerosis
kidney stones
oil in the earth
ordinary rust (or "super-rust")
the entire carbonate mass in carbonaceous meteorites
some geological formations and geochemical processes
the largest biomass on the planet
seeding of life on earth when the earth formed
currently raining down on us from space

If those last two are true, then it's kinda funny - they're both true alien life forms, and our most indigenous life form at the same time. Would it even count if we found them in martian meteorites or onsite in martian soil? Maybe they caused the slightly positive Viking lander life test results.

How about contamination in some more loosely prepared CF cells that still had 'interesting' results? The little guys eat metals and release - ? Could they have anything to do with suspected examples of element transmutations in biological systems? They're suspected of forming the marble formations in Italy. Cripes, they're probably even responsible for that limescale crust I can't clean off my bathroom fixtures! Argh - we're invaded - thery're everywhere! Or not. Like they said, it might be hard for us to recognize the alien when meet him. Unless of course he's guzzling a Newcastle's...

- Rick Monteverde,
Honolulu Hawaii

>This is an interesting change in position by Dr. Tarter (the role model for Jodie Foster's character in "Contact"):
>
>http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=1772

<<snip>>

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If an Alkali Oxide layer builds up in patches on an electrolysis cell cathode lowering
it's work function and acting as a battery, will this give an over-unity calorimetry
result?
It still would not make up for power generation inefficiencies.
FJS



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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 25 09:30:49 2002
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From: "R. Wormus" <protech frii.com>
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Subject: Re: [OT]  ET Might be Here
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Vorts,
A comprehensive discussion of nano bacteria by the space studies board is 
available here:
http://www.nas.edu/ssb/nanomenu.htm
Ron

--On Wednesday, July 24, 2002 9:59 PM -1000 Rick Monteverde 
<rick highsurf.com> wrote:

> Aside from the fact that Terry Blanton himself is good enough evidence of
> an alien presence for most of us <g>, nanobacteria also seem interesting
> to me at the moment. They've got that nice hard shell that keeps 'em cozy
> in harsh environments, and they show up in the strangest of places. From
> what I gather from the net, *without* filtering for fringe theory, there
> seems to be evidence that they are responsible for the following:
>
> alzheimer's
> arthritis
> MS (continue list of inflammatory diseases...)
> arteriosclerosis
> kidney stones
> oil in the earth
> ordinary rust (or "super-rust")
> the entire carbonate mass in carbonaceous meteorites
> some geological formations and geochemical processes
> the largest biomass on the planet
> seeding of life on earth when the earth formed
> currently raining down on us from space
>
> If those last two are true, then it's kinda funny - they're both true
> alien life forms, and our most indigenous life form at the same time.
> Would it even count if we found them in martian meteorites or onsite in
> martian soil? Maybe they caused the slightly positive Viking lander life
> test results.
>
> How about contamination in some more loosely prepared CF cells that still
> had 'interesting' results? The little guys eat metals and release - ?
> Could they have anything to do with suspected examples of element
> transmutations in biological systems? They're suspected of forming the
> marble formations in Italy. Cripes, they're probably even responsible for
> that limescale crust I can't clean off my bathroom fixtures! Argh - we're
> invaded - thery're everywhere! Or not. Like they said, it might be hard
> for us to recognize the alien when meet him. Unless of course he's
> guzzling a Newcastle's...
>
> - Rick Monteverde,
> Honolulu Hawaii
>
>> This is an interesting change in position by Dr. Tarter (the role model
>> for Jodie Foster's character in "Contact"):
>>
>> http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=1772
>
> <<snip>>
>
>


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<fontfamily><param>Verdana</param><flushleft>Vorts,

A comprehensive discussion of nano bacteria by the space studies board is =
available here:

http://www.nas.edu/ssb/nanomenu.htm

Ron


--On Wednesday, July 24, 2002 9:59 PM -1000 Rick Monteverde =
<<rick highsurf.com> wrote:


> Aside from the fact that Terry Blanton himself is good enough evidence of

> an alien presence for most of us <<g>, nanobacteria also seem interesting

> to me at the moment. They've got that nice hard shell that keeps 'em cozy

> in harsh environments, and they show up in the strangest of places. From

> what I gather from the net, *without* filtering for fringe theory, there

> seems to be evidence that they are responsible for the following:=20

>=20

> alzheimer's

> arthritis

> MS (continue list of inflammatory diseases...)

> arteriosclerosis

> kidney stones

> oil in the earth

> ordinary rust (or "super-rust")

> the entire carbonate mass in carbonaceous meteorites

> some geological formations and geochemical processes

> the largest biomass on the planet

> seeding of life on earth when the earth formed

> currently raining down on us from space

>=20

> If those last two are true, then it's kinda funny - they're both true

> alien life forms, and our most indigenous life form at the same time.

> Would it even count if we found them in martian meteorites or onsite in

> martian soil? Maybe they caused the slightly positive Viking lander life

> test results.

>=20

> How about contamination in some more loosely prepared CF cells that still

> had 'interesting' results? The little guys eat metals and release - ?

> Could they have anything to do with suspected examples of element

> transmutations in biological systems? They're suspected of forming the

> marble formations in Italy. Cripes, they're probably even responsible for

> that limescale crust I can't clean off my bathroom fixtures! Argh - we're

> invaded - thery're everywhere! Or not. Like they said, it might be hard

> for us to recognize the alien when meet him. Unless of course he's

> guzzling a Newcastle's...

>=20

> - Rick Monteverde,

> Honolulu Hawaii

>=20

>> This is an interesting change in position by Dr. Tarter (the role model

>> for Jodie Foster's character in "Contact"):

>>=20

>> http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=3D1772

>=20

> <<<<snip>>

>=20

> =20



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From: Keasy aol.com
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Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:23:15 EDT
Subject: Re: [OT]  ET Might be Here
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In a message dated 7/24/02 3:55:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, knagel gis.net 
writes:


> We can't even find Osama Bin Laden.
> 
> Or the anthrax guy, for that matter.
> 
> Perhaps we should send a probe to Washington and
> search for intelligent life there????
> 
> 

You guys keep suggesting harder and harder problems --

                                                                              
    Ken

--part1_177.bdbafd9.2a71b833_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">In a message dated 7/24/02 3:55:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, knagel gis.net writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">We can't even find Osama Bin Laden.<BR>
<BR>
Or the anthrax guy, for that matter.<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps we should send a probe to Washington and<BR>
search for intelligent life there????<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
You guys keep suggesting harder and harder problems --<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ken<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
--part1_177.bdbafd9.2a71b833_boundary--

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Thu Jul 25 13:26:47 2002
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From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: [OT]  ET Might be Here
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Hi all.

This link

http://www.nas.edu/ssb/nanopanel2kajander.htm

from Ron's reminds me of the work of Dr. Gaston Naessans,
the Canadian doctor who invented that add-on kit
for dark field microscopes to show ultra small particles.
He was pretty convinced that the lifecycles of
these organisms reflected the health of the person
and were in some fashion related to cancer.

K.

Maybe the aliens have not only invaded, they've
TAKEN OVER OUR BODIES! Your pod is ready Rick...

-----Original Message-----
From: R. Wormus [mailto:protech frii.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 1:30 PM
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [OT] ET Might be Here


Vorts,
A comprehensive discussion of nano bacteria by the space studies board is
available here:
http://www.nas.edu/ssb/nanomenu.htm
Ron

--On Wednesday, July 24, 2002 9:59 PM -1000 Rick Monteverde
<rick highsurf.com> wrote:

> Aside from the fact that Terry Blanton himself is good enough evidence of
> an alien presence for most of us <g>, nanobacteria also seem interesting
> to me at the moment. They've got that nice hard shell that keeps 'em cozy
> in harsh environments, and they show up in the strangest of places. From
> what I gather from the net, *without* filtering for fringe theory, there
> seems to be evidence that they are responsible for the following:
>
> alzheimer's
> arthritis
> MS (continue list of inflammatory diseases...)
> arteriosclerosis
> kidney stones
> oil in the earth
> ordinary rust (or "super-rust")
> the entire carbonate mass in carbonaceous meteorites
> some geological formations and geochemical processes
> the largest biomass on the planet
> seeding of life on earth when the earth formed
> currently raining down on us from space
>
> If those last two are true, then it's kinda funny - they're both true
> alien life forms, and our most indigenous life form at the same time.
> Would it even count if we found them in martian meteorites or onsite in
> martian soil? Maybe they caused the slightly positive Viking lander life
> test results.
>
> How about contamination in some more loosely prepared CF cells that still
> had 'interesting' results? The little guys eat metals and release - ?
> Could they have anything to do with suspected examples of element
> transmutations in biological systems? They're suspected of forming the
> marble formations in Italy. Cripes, they're probably even responsible for
> that limescale crust I can't clean off my bathroom fixtures! Argh - we're
> invaded - thery're everywhere! Or not. Like they said, it might be hard
> for us to recognize the alien when meet him. Unless of course he's
> guzzling a Newcastle's...
>
> - Rick Monteverde,
> Honolulu Hawaii
>
>> This is an interesting change in position by Dr. Tarter (the role model
>> for Jodie Foster's character in "Contact"):
>>
>> http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=1772
>
> <<snip>>
>
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Fri Jul 26 14:07:52 2002
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: What's New for Jul 26, 2002
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 16:56:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: "What's New" <whatsnew aps.org>
To: aki ix.netcom.com

WHAT'S NEW   Robert L. Park   Friday, 26 Jul 02   Washin gton, DC

1. BUBBLE FUSION: THE BUBBLE SEEMS TO HAVE COLLAPSED.  In March,
against the advice of physicists, Science published an article by
Taleyarkan et al. claiming to get fusion out of sonoluminescence
(WN 1 Mar 02).  Two experienced nuclear physicists, D. Shapira
and M.J. Saltmarsh, using better neutron detection in the same
apparatus, said there was no evidence of fusion.  Science refused
to hold up publication of the Taleyarkan paper until the Shapira
and Saltmarsh findings could accompany it, or even add a note
warning that there were contrary results.  Not to worry!  The
Shapira and Saltmarsh paper is about to come out in Physical
Review Letters, and is expected to directly refute the Taleyarkan
et al. paper.  And in this week's Nature, a letter by Didenko and
Suslick seemed to rule out bubble fusion entirely.  Reactions of
gases trapped inside bubbles soak up so much energy that bubble
temperatures could never get close to the threshold for fusion.
     
2. ENTROPY: THE SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS STILL HOLDS.  Claims
that the Second Law of Thermodynamics has been violated are often
found in fringe journals.  This one is in Physical Review Letters
http://link.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v89/e050601.  The title:
"Experimental Demonstration of Violations of the Second Law of
Thermodynamics in Small Systems and Short Timescales," says it
all.  The authors discovered that when statistical laws are
applied to systems that aren't statistically significant, they
don't work.  I experienced this myself.  As a boy I once batted
1,000 for an entire day.  Ted Williams batted only 406, and for
that he has to hang upside down in liquid nitrogen until science
figures out how to revive him.  The statistics aren't promising.

3. MONEY: PHYSICS GETS A BREAK ON CAPITAL HILL.  After a dismal
decade, math and physical sciences got better news this week from
Senate appropriators, who increased NSF's MPS account by almost
15 percent.  DOE also got some relief, as the House began work on
Rep. Judith Biggert's (R-IL) science authorization bill.  The
goal of doubling the Office of Science budget was supported by
Nobelists Jerome Friedman and Richard Smalley, who testified
before the Energy Subcommittee.  Terrorism, the possibility of
war with Iraq, and a tanking stock market seem to have persuaded
Congress that it's time to support the physical sciences.

4. SECRECY: SELF-CENSORSHIP REPLACES GOVERNMENT INTIMIDATION.  In
December, WN heard that the White House was pushing the American
Society for Microbiology to develop guidelines for withholding
information that could help terrorists.  Today's NY Times says
Ron Atlas, ASM President, is now concerned that scientists may
want to withhold information to keep others from reproducing
their results.  Atlas reportedly favors a full-disclosure rule
for all ASM journals.  We should all have such a rule.

THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND and THE AMERICAN PHYSICAL SOCIETY
Opinions are the authors and are not necessarily shared by the
University or the American Physical Society, but they should be.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Sat Jul 27 09:46:47 2002
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Reply-To: <knagel gis.net>
From: "Keith Nagel" <knagel gis.net>
To: "Vortex" <vortex-l eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: ET is Here
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 12:57:58 -0400
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This is pretty typical of our approach to
unknown phenomena.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8131-2002Jul26.html

ET is going to have to do more than overfly Washington to
get some attention. Perhaps ET should hire some K Street
lobbyists?

K.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 29 06:00:55 2002
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Subject: Re: Full Moon effects on Over-Unity Results, Or the Investigators?
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 06:49:49 -0500
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If it effects the Serotonin/Melatonin release in the Pineal/Hypothalamus process, why
not the water temperature P&F type electrolysis cells?  :-)

http://www.cem.msu.edu/~reusch/OrgPage/VirtualText/Spectrpy/InfraRed/infrared.htm

Summary: New satellite measurements of the lunar-surface radiation temperature were
used to construct the spatial angular function of thermal radiation of the Moon in the
infrared (10.5-12.5 micron, 10,500 -12,500 nm) spectral range.

Conclusions: The thermal field of the Moon's  surface in the IR infrared spectrum
(10.5-12.5 mm) is formed as an outcome of heating of the surface by solar radiation.
The temperature of the Moon's surface varies from 400? to 100? during a synodic month.
The radiation temperature of the surface in regions close to the terminator changes in
limits from 250? up to 300 ?. A change of  phase of the Moon by one degree increases
the radiation temperature by 10?.

Regards,   Frederick

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Seriously though...

I had worked in the consumer product support center at A company which
will remain nameless 'Radio Shack' There is an actual parallel to the
call load and the lunar phase.  e.g  Support calls are nearly three times
the norm in the 5 days surround a full moon...

My experience tells me that before the full moon they wanted to know how
to set up entertainment equipment *mostly.  After the full moon they
wanted to set up alarm systems *mostly.   

I wonder if those results are tainted by 'other human behaviour'

--- Frederick Sparber &lt;fjsparber earthlink.net&gt; wrote:
&gt; If it effects the Serotonin/Melatonin release in the
&gt; Pineal/Hypothalamus process, why
&gt; not the water temperature P&amp;F type electrolysis cells?  :-)
&gt; 
&gt;
http://www.cem.msu.edu/~reusch/OrgPage/VirtualText/Spectrpy/InfraRed/infrared.htm



=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 29 07:35:35 2002
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Charles Ford wrote:


> Seriously though...
>
> I had worked in the consumer product support center at A company which
> will remain nameless 'Radio Shack' There is an actual parallel to the
> call load and the lunar phase.  e.g  Support calls are nearly three times
> the norm in the 5 days surround a full moon...
>
> My experience tells me that before the full moon they wanted to know how
> to set up entertainment equipment *mostly.  After the full moon they
> wanted to set up alarm systems *mostly.
>
> I wonder if those results are tainted by 'other human behaviour'

If you review the vortex archives you will find that "hostility" peaks (FWHM) at about
4 days before and after the full moon.  :-)

Regards,    Frederick
>
> --- Frederick Sparber &lt;fjsparber earthlink.net&gt; wrote:
> &gt; If it effects the Serotonin/Melatonin release in the
> &gt; Pineal/Hypothalamus process, why
> &gt; not the water temperature P&amp;F type electrolysis cells?  :-)
> &gt;
> &gt;
> http://www.cem.msu.edu/~reusch/OrgPage/VirtualText/Spectrpy/InfraRed/infrared.htm
>
>
>
> =====
> Charles Ford
> KC5-OWZ
> cjford1 yahoo.com
> cjford1 swbell.net
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
> http://health.yahoo.com
>

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 29 14:15:24 2002
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Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:11:22 -0400
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From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: I am back, uneaten. Let's get on with LENR.org
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I am back from Gettysburg, where I was not eaten by bears. I have heard 
from Mike Carrell. Others working the LENR project please contact me. Let 
us decide which selections are next scanned & uploaded. If I choose them 
all don't complain I left out your favorites.

Regarding those bears . . . I gave them a good opportunity. People say 
there are some hanging around Cove Hollow near the Appalachian Trail. One 
morning at 6:15 a.m. I decided to tromp through that area 3 miles south, 
and then 6 miles back along unmapped back roads leading to PA Route 16. 
This is a fairly crazy thing to do, sort of like walking unarmed through a 
Baltimore slum at six in the morning. It is especially crazy for me, since 
I have no sense of direction. Even experienced people end up going in 
circles or falling down cliffs. These hills and woods are almost as deep as 
they were when they screened 75,000 Confederate troops before and after the 
battle of Gettysburg. However, I have not taken leave of my senses. I have 
a handheld GPS gadget. I put fresh batteries in it, and confirmed it works 
under tall trees. It gives a person a god-like sense of direction. It does 
nothing to stop bears or snakes, but it makes it easy to work around steep 
spots or bogs, or go back where you came from. Anyway, contrary to the 
Blair Witch movie, it is hard to become seriously lost in that part of the 
country. Follow any stream downhill for a few miles and you will find a 
road that goes somewhere.

About the time I was tromping through the woods, an expert in Somerset, 
Pennsylvania was using GPS surveying instruments to dig a hole 300 feet 
down to rescue nine trapped miners with what the newspapers call 
"miraculous precision." People who opposed space exploration in the 1960s 
as a waste of money should ponder this. It is impossible to gage exactly, 
but I suppose the cost of rocket development from 1930 to 1960 is paid back 
every week in improved weather forecasts, GPS navigation, satellite 
broadcast revenues and so on.

I spent some time driving around Sabillasville and Pen Mar Maryland, and 
Blue Ridge Summit, Pennsylvania. The roads are narrow and rough. Some are 
unpaved, washed out or difficult to drive on. What I like is that you 
seldom meet with traffic, and there no SUVs hogging the road, blocking the 
view with tinted glass windows. People drive 1985 Ford Fairlanes with bald 
tires. SUVs are only used in suburbs, where they are not needed.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Mon Jul 29 16:23:13 2002
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Jed -where did you get your GPS unit?, How much cost/?and how accurate is it?
        I have some property in north west PA that I want to mark boundaries
           and once in the woods, I know I can't walk a straight line so a gps
           would be helpful.
              Ges- Thanks

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>Jed -where did you get your GPS unit?, How much cost/?and how accurate is it?
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I have some property in north west PA that I want to mark boundaries
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;and once in the woods, I know I can't walk a straight line so a gps
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;would be helpful.
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Ges- Thanks</FONT></HTML>

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 30 07:04:08 2002
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Subject: Huge archive of weird science articles
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I hadn't looked at Dr. Corliss' site in awhile.  It's much bigger now!
For those who haven't seen it recently (or for those who never encountered
it), here's some hours of weird science reading:

   Science Frontiers monthly newsletters
   http://www.science-frontiers.com/sfonline.htm


And here's where Corliss makes his living:

  Sourcebook (encyclopedia set)
  http://www.science-frontiers.com/sourcebk.htm


(((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                            SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb eskimo.com                            http://amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits   amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair
Seattle, WA  206-789-0775    unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci

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On Wed, Jul 24, 2002 at 07:00:03PM -0400, Jeff & Dorothy Kooistra wrote:
> > John Schnurer wrote:
>=20
> > > "force DOT distance"
> > >
> > > and another writes "force TIMES distance"
> > >
> > >
> > > What is the drift here?
>=20
> > DOT is usually used to describe matrix multiplication.
>=20
> I would have thought the reference was simply to the vector "dot product",
> that being in this case, force times distance times the cosine of the ang=
le
> between the two vectors.  In simple cases, when the angle is zero, this
> reduces to force times distance since cos 0 =3D 1.

Distance is a scalar, not a vector and so you can't perform a scalar product
between them.

There are two ways of multiplying vectors together the dot or scalar
product, and the cross product which produces an othogonal vector.

John, in your case the two are synomonous for each other because one of
the quantities is a scalar.

Joe

--=20
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain;
and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Albert
Einstein, 1921

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 30 07:54:57 2002
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Subject: New Scientist editorial tepid endorsement of cold fusion
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The Editorial column on page 3 in the July 27th issue of New Scientist 
magazine has an editorial about the Taleyarkhan experiment. It denigrates 
mainstream cold fusion, although not as harshly as in the past, and it ends 
with this surprisingly upbeat paragraph:

"There is one very positive outcome to this episode. Thirteen years after 
cold fusion first reared its head, both Nature and Science have broken 
their silence on tabletop fusion. These are no longer dirty words. Let's 
hope that this is the first step in the rehabilitation of innovative 
electrochemistry. If there is any thing strange or useful about palladium 
electrodes in deuterated water, we should find out about it - not try to 
stop people finding out."

The editorial gives no hint of what else is going on in the field. If the 
New Scientist reads messages from me (which is very unlikely!), it knows 
that Iwamura just published a definitive paper on cold fusion, far more 
important than Taleyarkhan.

- Jed

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According to the Guardian, Boeing is doing AG experiments at their 
Phantom Works:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/netnotes/article/0,6729,765201,00.html

Terry

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I was listening to a caller to a radio talk show. He was talking 
about recognizing a person based on their neutron emissions. AFAIF, a 
living body doesn't emit neutrons. has any  of you ever heard of this?
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 30 08:58:18 2002
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Some people saw my last two messages, but I did not. Did anyone see "New 
Scientist editorial . . . " sent today?

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 30 09:20:25 2002
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Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Some people saw my last two messages, but I did not. Did anyone see 
> "New Scientist editorial . . . " sent today?
>
> - Jed
>
>

Yes.

I have vortex coming in on two different email addresses (home and 
work).  My work address is the most recently subscribed.  Messages 
always show up there first and many minutes can elapse before they show 
on the older address.

You can always check the vortex archives to see if a message got out:

http://www.escribe.com/science/vortex/

Terry


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I did.
Ed

Jed Rothwell wrote:

> Some people saw my last two messages, but I did not. Did anyone see "New
> Scientist editorial . . . " sent today?
>
> - Jed

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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 30 13:06:26 2002
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To: vortex-L eskimo.com
From: Jed Rothwell <jedrothwell infinite-energy.com>
Subject: OFF TOPIC Hal Plotkin on interesting anti-spam innovation
Mime-Version: 1.0
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It turns out I was not getting my own messages because I somehow set 
MailWasher to intercepting and deleting all messages from myself.

In a related topic, Hal Plotkin, who has written good stuff about CF in the 
past, has an interesting column today about an anti-spam innovation. See:

"Not a Moment Too Soon
Digiportal's innovative new ChoiceMail program means the end of spam"

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2002/07/30/choicem.DTL

He has also recently written about fuel cells.

"Fuel Cell Hold-up
Government's go-slow approach promises to keep the technology on the shelf"

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2002/06/20/baybridge.DTL

Some of his claims in this article are incorrect:

"The interest in extracting hydrogen from other fuels, rather than just 
using tanks of pure hydrogen, is partially related to safety concerns 
stemming from hydrogen's explosive nature. For example, a small hydrogen 
fuel-cell battery powering a cell phone, were it to explode, could take off 
the heads of everyone in the vicinity. Likewise, an exploding car-size tank 
of pure hydrogen might level a city block or more."

I don't think so! A cell-phone fuel cell battery would contain about as 
much fuel as a butane cigarette lighter. Hydrogen burns faster than natural 
gas or butane, and it ignites with less input energy (12 times less than 
methane), so it is dangerous in some ways. But but unless it is confined 
behind a projectile in a gun barrel or in a grenade, it would not take off 
anyone's head. An exploding plastic fuel cell fuel reservoir might hurt 
someone or blind someone at worst.

- Jed

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 30 14:28:33 2002
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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:24:58 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Thomas Malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: Mice Reject Genetically Engineered Food
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I've made no secret of my fascination with biotechnology. I find this 
research troubling.

>
>Subject: Mice Reject Genetically Engineered Food
>
>   @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>>  PLANETNEWS broadcast...
>>
>>  Mice reject GM food
>>  Friday, July 19, 2002 3:32:28 AM
>>  From:   ascension2000.web virgin.net
>>
>>  An interesting report from THE ECOLOGIST, vol. 32, #5, June 2002 page 33
>>
>>  Mice Reject Genetically Engineered Food
>>
>>  Following is from a British journal (June 2002) excerpt:
>>
>>  "While the International scientific community spares no effort in
>branding
>>  GM food as "substantially equivalent' to conventional food  (essentially
>so
>>  as to prop up the ailing biotech industry), a 17-year-  old Dutch
>>  undergraduate has created scientific history with some  simple &
>disturbing
>>  experiments on mice."
>>  by Devinder Sharma
>>
>>  Excerpt:
>>
>>  "Hinze Hogendoorn conclusively demonstrated that not everything  endorsed
>by
>>  Nobel laureates & other so-called authorities like the  UK's Royal Society
>>  is scientifically correct. Hogendoorn may not find  a place of honour in
>the
>>  pro-GM stuffed Royal Society, but he has  surely put the august body to
>>  shame.
>>
>>  Following basic scientific conventions, H. conducted his experiments  on
>>  mice. He picked up 30 female 6-week-old mice from a herpetology  centre.
>>  These rodents were originally bred to feed snakes.
>>
>>  Then, like any other net-savvy teenager, he searched the web for
>>  information on how to take care of mice. Accordingly, he bought some
>rodent
>>  mix, some Kellogg's and Quaker cereals and some oatmeal that  was
>specified
>>  to be 'GM-free'. H. also bought some GM maize and soya. These foodstuffs
>>  were to form the staple diet for the mice.
>>
>>  The mice were let loose in big cages with 2 piles of food--one GM  and one
>>  non GM--stacked in 4 bowls. Unaware of received opinion on  the virtues of
>>  GM 'functional foods', the mice delivered their own  verdict. They
>>  completely emptied the bowls containing the non-GM  food. The bowls with
>GM
>>  food remained untouched.
>>
>>  But H. was still not satisfied. He conducted a series of other  tests to
>>  find out what would happen when the mice were force-fed with  GM foods.
>>  Significantly, but for unknown reasons, one of the mice died. The  other
>>  GM-fed mice initially appeared heavier, but by the end of the  experiment
>>  they had actually lost weight. A rival group of mice was  fed a non-GM
>diet.
>>
>>  These mice ate less and gained more weight, and continued to gain  weight.
>>
>>  Equally sorrying were the behavioural changes that the diet induced  in
>the
>>  mice. The GM-fed mice 'seemed less active', more nervous &  distressed'and
>>  were completely at a loss.
>>  'Many,' Hogendoorn was quoted as saying, 'were running round and  round
>the
>>  basket, scrabbling desperately in the sawdust, & even  frantically jumping
>>  up the sides--something I'd never seen before.'
>>
>>  The Royal Society has so far refrained from commenting on H's
>>  experiments........................As a face-saving device, it has  drawn
>>  attention to the potential risks GM foods pose for babies. The
>>  latter are particularly susceptible to changes in the nutritional  make-up
>>  of food.
>>
>>  But the Royal Society report is full of contradictions. It states  that
>>  consumption of genetically modified DNA has no effect on human  health.
>Are
>>  babies not human?"
>>
>>    from article in THE ECOLOGIST, vol. 32, #5, June 2002 page 33
>>


-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 30 15:42:39 2002
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July 20, 2002

Vortex,

There is a LENR.org web site with empty contents so far.
How is it planned to fill it up and work?
What are the ideas to make it a reference web site for whom?
Is there to be an interactive search able feature to it?
Properly cataloguing the past is one huge thing, what of the present and
future CF activities?
Are only published technical papers on CF to be its resource?
Are there any national boundaries as to the source of the papers?
What about other CF related works and  references?
Is this web site to be a venue for new works, theoretical or
experimental, on CF?
And what review process is proposed before publication?
Are there to be opportunities for discussions of the listed works?
How are copyrighted published works to be handled?
How are works in CF which have been patented to be handled?
How is it proposed to fit in, augment, or replace other preexisting
efforts in disseminating CF information?
Is this to be a non-profit endeavor, open to all for participation or
something else?
How is it proposed to be financed on a continuing basis?
Or is this to last only until CF is fully vindicated, recognized and
accepted in mainstream  science?
Is there going to be a listing of the web site organizers, sponsors,
members, volunteers, etc.?

I am curious.

-AK-

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 30 16:38:02 2002
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Dear Akira,
Thanks for the excellent questions.  I have provided some answers within
the text.

Best regards,
Ed

Akira Kawasaki wrote:

> July 20, 2002
>
> Vortex,
>
> There is a LENR.org web site with empty contents so far.
> How is it planned to fill it up and work?

Several people are busy scanning papers and getting papers from various
authors.  This work is slow but eventually will result in a collection of
important papers in the field.

>
> What are the ideas to make it a reference web site for whom?

The site will be useful for anyone who wants to know what is known about
CF.

>
> Is there to be an interactive search able feature to it?

Eventually this feature will be added.

>
> Properly cataloguing the past is one huge thing, what of the present and
> future CF activities?

We are trying to get the past in place first.  Eventually, we hope the site
will allow interactions that will help shape the future.

>
> Are only published technical papers on CF to be its resource?

No, we hope to include opinions, critiques, newspaper articles, and any
other material of interest to the field.

>
> Are there any national boundaries as to the source of the papers?

We will accept papers from any country as long as they are in English.

>
> What about other CF related works and  references?

We will include anything of interest, time permitting.

>
> Is this web site to be a venue for new works, theoretical or
> experimental, on CF?

Once the past has been documented, we will accept new papers, other
theoretical and experimental.  Eventually I hope the site can be the start
of a new journal about the subject.

>
> And what review process is proposed before publication?

I'm proposing open peer review, i.e. the author will know who reviewed the
paper.  This will force a reviewer to be objective and will eliminate many
of the insults common in secret reviews.  The review will be made public
with the author's permission. The intent will be to make a submitted paper
understandable to an average reader.  New ideas will not be rejected out of
hand, but they must be logical and their relationship to known physics and
chemistry must be clearly stated.  While this is a difficult standard for
some people to meet, papers published on the site will have a greater
impact and influence than those from other sources, while allowing new
ideas to be communicated.

>
> Are there to be opportunities for discussions of the listed works?

Yes.  The discussion will be attached to the paper when it is called up.

>
> How are copyrighted published works to be handled?

We will get permission when we can.  However, lack of formal permission
will not stop our posting important information.  If objections are raised
about a particular paper, the paper will be immediately removed.

>
> How are works in CF which have been patented to be handled?

When actual patents are issued, these will be noted and linked to the full
patent on the web.

>
> How is it proposed to fit in, augment, or replace other preexisting
> efforts in disseminating CF information?

Other sites will be linked to this site.  Eventually, if we are successful,
people will find using this one site more convenient than posting on other
sites.

>
> Is this to be a non-profit endeavor, open to all for participation or
> something else?

The work is nonprofit and volunteer.  However, some day when the field is
accepted, we hope to make the site self-supporting.

>
> How is it proposed to be financed on a continuing basis?

At the present time, we are donating our time.  In the future, a number of
methods might be used such as dues, advertising, and donations.

>
> Or is this to last only until CF is fully vindicated, recognized and
> accepted in mainstream  science?

I expect the site will continue and be useful, especially after the subject
has been vindicated.  I expect most people will not want to use
conventional journals, i.e. the ones that gave the field such a hard time.
I hope we can show how papers can be reviewed so as to make them useful
without destroying new ideas.  This method might be of great relief from
conventional methods.

>
> Is there going to be a listing of the web site organizers, sponsors,
> members, volunteers, etc.?

We will give addresses for everyone in the field who agree to have this
information made public.  Also, a list of reviewers will be made public so
that a person submitting a paper can suggest who might make a good
reviewer.


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From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 30 17:06:12 2002
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Subject: Re: Mice Reject Genetically Engineered Food
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Mice and other "wild" animals who feed off the land have to do continuous
chemical analyses of prospective foods via smell and taste. Domesticated
humans are notoriously bad at this; our chemical analyzers are much less
capable than many animals. Thus it is quite credible that the genetic
manipulation would give food differences in odor and taste that mice would
reject as warnings of toxicity, and of which humans would be unaware,  which
seem justified by the tests. Human metabolism is different, so the outcomes
may be different and OK for humans. Humans dote on chocolate, but it is
quite toxic to dogs, for example.

Mike Carrell


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 30 20:40:45 2002
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Mike; Terry:

I did notice the article exaggerated carefully chosen words in order to
prod the readers ire.  This is a tabloid tactic.

For example 

I do not find it difficult to believe that a 17 year old boy performed
experiments on mice that some adults found DISTURBING.

or

I do not find it difficult to believe that A 17 YEAR OLD BOY performed
experiments on mice that SOME ADULTS found disturbing.

There are two deferent meanings here.

As for the experiment...  This is what happens when you design an
experiment to prove a political position.

A more accurate experiment would be to raise mice on soya and oats that
are not GM and the same foods that are GM in a couple dozen separate
containers using double blind method.  Then check the health and
population after several generations.  

otherwise all you know is that mice prefer non GM foods.  A good
experiment is designed to remove any chance of error. But I don't expect
a 17 year old to know this is necessary. 

This also is an example of why we all need to be skeptical, especially of
our own work. Also it is a good thing to remember that when you align
yourself with a political party you surrender your integrity to that
party.  Ask yourself if you trust your integrity to the most despicable
member of that party.  If the answer is no then do not support them. 

--- Mike Carrell &lt;mikec snip.net&gt; wrote:
&gt; Mice and other &#34;wild&#34; animals who feed off the land have to
do
&gt; continuous
&gt; chemical analyses of prospective foods via smell and taste.
&gt; Domesticated


=====
Charles Ford
KC5-OWZ
cjford1 yahoo.com
cjford1 swbell.net

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Tue Jul 30 22:54:48 2002
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 <3D471611.A609D11B ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 00:52:13 -0500
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
From: Thomas Malloy <temalloy metro.lakes.com>
Subject: Re: LENR.org
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>Dear Akira,
>Thanks for the excellent questions.  I have provided some answers within
>the text.
>
>Best regards,
>Ed
>
>  > What are the ideas to make it a reference web site for whom?
>
>The site will be useful for anyone who wants to know what is known about
>CF.
Interesting response Ed, You will recall that list of articles you 
emailed me with information about specific isotopes, which have been 
reported following LENR's. Unfortunately the Univ of MN has none of 
those journals. I am hoping that when this website is finished I will 
be able to indulge myself in such information.

Thomas
-- 

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 31 00:53:09 2002
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Subject: Chiao reports negative result
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:50:24 +0400
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Hi,

There is an update of paper http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/0204012
 I did not fully read it, but it is an extended version of the original paper including
author's result of first experiment to obtain gravity wave transceiver.

It is also mentioned of an T shaped antenna to generate and receive quadrupolar excitation
of 12GHz e.m. waves.

I would also note that the used power to excite the "transmitter" YBCO disk is below 0.1mW:

"IX. RESULTS OF A FIRST EXPERIMENT AND FUTURE PROSPECTS
However, based on the above crude dimensional and physical arguments, the prospects
for a simple Hertz-like experiment testing these ideas appeared promising enough that I
have performed a First attempt at this experiment with Walt Fitelson at liquid nitrogen
temperature. The schematic of this experiment is shown in Figure 3. Details will be
presented elsewhere.
Unfortunately, we did not detect any observable signal inside the second Faraday cage,
down to a limit of more than 70 dB below the microwave power source of around -10dBm
at 12 GHz. (We used a commercial satellite microwave receiver at 12 GHz with a noise
figure of 0.6 dB to make these measurements; the Faraday cages were good enough to block
any direct electromagnetic coupling by more than 70 dB). We checked for the presence of
the Meissner effect in the samples in situ by observing a levitation effect upon a permanent
magnet by these samples at liquid nitrogen temperature."


Regards,

hamdi ucar


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 31 01:04:39 2002
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Subject: Chiao reports negative result -correction
To: vortex <vortex-l eskimo.com>
From: hamdix verisoft.com.tr
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:04:05 +0400
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The line

"I would also note that the used power to 
excite the "transmitter" YBCO disk is below 0.1mW"

should be read as

"I would also to note that the used power to 
excite the "transmitter" YBCO disk is below 1 mW".


Regards,

hamdi ucar


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 31 05:23:56 2002
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Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 08:22:01 -0400
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Edmund Storms wrote:

>>How is it proposed to be financed on a continuing basis?
>>
>
>At the present time, we are donating our time.  In the future, a number of
>methods might be used such as dues, advertising, and donations.
>


If I may be of assistance, please email me privately.  I have access to 
a production scanner and am willing to assist financially for this noble 
cause.

Terry

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 31 05:24:58 2002
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Thomas Malloy wrote:

> Interesting response Ed, You will recall that list of articles you 
> emailed me with information about specific isotopes, which have been 
> reported following LENR's. Unfortunately the Univ of MN has none of 
> those journals. I am hoping that when this website is finished I will 
> be able to indulge myself in such information. 


The Georgia library system provides access to a database system called 
Galileo which has hundreds of peer review journals, among other things. 
 Possibly the same is true of MN?

Terry


From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 31 14:24:21 2002
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Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:20:10 -0400
From: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Test
Sender: Norman Horwood <100060.173 compuserve.com>
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Hi Jed,

>> Did anyone see "New Scientist editorial . . . " sent today? <<

Yes - quite amusing!

Norman Horwood.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 31 16:07:39 2002
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From: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa bigpond.net.au>
To: vortex-l eskimo.com
Subject: Re: LENR.org
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 09:00:24 +1000
Organization: Improving
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In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:42:20 -0600:
Hi Ed,
[snip]
>We are trying to get the past in place first.  Eventually, we hope the site
>will allow interactions that will help shape the future.

While I admire your initiative, dedication, and selflessness, I fear that the relevance of the site may be diminished if you insist on this approach, as I suspect that the site will forever be playing "catchup" with reality.
It may prove more useful to place your first priority on current papers, and then add older papers as time permits, starting with the most recent, and working backwards.

The rationale for this approach is that later work has benefited from the earlier work, and hence on average rests on a more solid foundation. Hence results obtained from later work are more likely to be useful, therefore give a higher priority to making these results available first.
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

From vortex-l-request eskimo.com  Wed Jul 31 18:11:56 2002
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Hi Robin,
We are not attempting to put all old papers on the site yet.  The ones being added are important because they have helped steer the understanding, hence are useful to people who want to understand the field.  Until the site proves its usefulness to the field, few people will be willing
to place their new papers on the site.  Indeed, not many new papers are being written. Meanwhile, we are working out the bugs and organizing the effort.  Like all new projects, we will have to grow into a role I hope the site will play in the field.

Regards,
Ed

Robin van Spaandonk wrote:

> In reply to  Edmund Storms's message of Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:42:20 -0600:
> Hi Ed,
> [snip]
> >We are trying to get the past in place first.  Eventually, we hope the site
> >will allow interactions that will help shape the future.
>
> While I admire your initiative, dedication, and selflessness, I fear that the relevance of the site may be diminished if you insist on this approach, as I suspect that the site will forever be playing "catchup" with reality.
> It may prove more useful to place your first priority on current papers, and then add older papers as time permits, starting with the most recent, and working backwards.
>
> The rationale for this approach is that later work has benefited from the earlier work, and hence on average rests on a more solid foundation. Hence results obtained from later work are more likely to be useful, therefore give a higher priority to making these results available first.
> [snip]
> Regards,
>
> Robin van Spaandonk
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/
>
> Competition provides the motivation,
> Cooperation provides the means.

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