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From: "Thomas A. Rice" <trex@holly.colostate.edu>
Subject: Researches of Burr
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Greetings to All,
	Is anyone aware of and have information pertaining to the research of
Harold Saxton Burr?  A reference is found in _The Secret Life of Plants_,
page 195.  Anyone with information, or comments concerning the above
writting, please contact me directly.

	Sincerely,
	Thomas A. Rice


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 02:36:32 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Researches of Burr

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Greetings to All,
	Is anyone aware of and have information pertaining to the research of
Harold Saxton Burr?  A reference is found in _The Secret Life of Plants_,
page 195.  Anyone with information, or comments concerning the above
writting, please contact me directly.

	Sincerely,
	Thomas A. Rice



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 03:03:31 1997
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Subject: Re: PARAMETRIC POWER CONVERSION
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I have confirmed Greg's observation some time age experimentally. With
10ohm air core coil, 0.05ohm current sensing resistor and a constant
voltage power supply, the voltage drop across the current sensing resistor
indeed decreased markedly while a non-conductive ferrite core approached
the coil.  

Note: the voltage across the current-sensing resistor represented the
current flowing through the coil.

I find the above to be as expected because the product [0.5LI^2] expressing
the total electrical energy stored by the coil system will have to be equal
before and after the approach of the ferrite core.  Since the [L] is
increased significantly upon the approach of the core, the [I] will have
decrease accordingly to keep the [0.5LI^2] product constant (ie. [L] 10,000
increase ... [I] 100 decrease)

This whole situation can be greatly simplified if you consider a closed
coil WITHOUT a power supply, with zero resistance.  An established current
circulating through such coil will continue forever since there is no
resistance to dissipate it as heat.  Thus no unnecessary complications
involving the balance of energy provided by an external power supply VERSUS
the energy dissipated in the coil's resistance.  The time factor also
disappears and the rate of change dI/dt and dL/dt become IRRELEVANT in a
closed coil with zero resistance.

Regarding the constant voltage VS. constant current power supply, the issue
is very simple:  since the electric energy stored in the coil tends to be
kept constant by the coil's inductance the product [EI] (a.k.a. VI)
integrated over the coil's charge/discharge time will have to remain
constant, thus [I] will have to decrease if the [E] is forcefully kept
constant ***in order to compensate*** for coil's increased charge/discharge
integration time, caused by increased [L] as a result of approaching
ferrite core with high permeability.  The situation where [E] is kept
constant and [I] allowed to vary, is analogous.

I dare to state that I expect the coil's stored electrical energy [0.5LI^2]
be the same before and after the approach of the ferrite core.



At 06:49 AM 4/28/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Greg Watson wrote:
>
>> Hold supply voltage constant and supply current DROPS as the core is
>> attracted.
>> 
>> Hold supply current constant and the supply voltage DROPS as the core is
>> attracted.
>> 
>> Don't believe me?  TRY it yourself!
>
>Curious, Greg.
>
>I am going by the formula V = LdI/dt + IdL/dt. The first partial will be
>zero under constant current conditions, which reduces the formula to V =
>IdL/dt which says the voltage across the inductor will increase as the
>rate of change of inductance which, in this case, will be positive
>because the rod is moving into the coil increasing the inductance. But
>you say the voltage across the inductor will DROP. Why?
>
>This formula says the overall loop voltage will have to increase, ie
>driving force within the constant current power supply will have to
>increase (or loop resistance decrease),  in order to overcome the
>positive going EMF induced across the inductor to maintain constant
>current. Thus work is done within the power supply to maintain constant
>current. The actual work done is VxI where V is the driving voltaage
>within the power supply and I is the current plowing in the constant
>current loop.
>
>Correct?
>
>Maxwell.
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 03:08:34 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: PARAMETRIC POWER CONVERSION

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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I have confirmed Greg's observation some time age experimentally. With
10ohm air core coil, 0.05ohm current sensing resistor and a constant
voltage power supply, the voltage drop across the current sensing resistor
indeed decreased markedly while a non-conductive ferrite core approached
the coil.  

Note: the voltage across the current-sensing resistor represented the
current flowing through the coil.

I find the above to be as expected because the product [0.5LI^2] expressing
the total electrical energy stored by the coil system will have to be equal
before and after the approach of the ferrite core.  Since the [L] is
increased significantly upon the approach of the core, the [I] will have
decrease accordingly to keep the [0.5LI^2] product constant (ie. [L] 10,000
increase ... [I] 100 decrease)

This whole situation can be greatly simplified if you consider a closed
coil WITHOUT a power supply, with zero resistance.  An established current
circulating through such coil will continue forever since there is no
resistance to dissipate it as heat.  Thus no unnecessary complications
involving the balance of energy provided by an external power supply VERSUS
the energy dissipated in the coil's resistance.  The time factor also
disappears and the rate of change dI/dt and dL/dt become IRRELEVANT in a
closed coil with zero resistance.

Regarding the constant voltage VS. constant current power supply, the issue
is very simple:  since the electric energy stored in the coil tends to be
kept constant by the coil's inductance the product [EI] (a.k.a. VI)
integrated over the coil's charge/discharge time will have to remain
constant, thus [I] will have to decrease if the [E] is forcefully kept
constant ***in order to compensate*** for coil's increased charge/discharge
integration time, caused by increased [L] as a result of approaching
ferrite core with high permeability.  The situation where [E] is kept
constant and [I] allowed to vary, is analogous.

I dare to state that I expect the coil's stored electrical energy [0.5LI^2]
be the same before and after the approach of the ferrite core.



At 06:49 AM 4/28/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Greg Watson wrote:
>
>> Hold supply voltage constant and supply current DROPS as the core is
>> attracted.
>> 
>> Hold supply current constant and the supply voltage DROPS as the core is
>> attracted.
>> 
>> Don't believe me?  TRY it yourself!
>
>Curious, Greg.
>
>I am going by the formula V = LdI/dt + IdL/dt. The first partial will be
>zero under constant current conditions, which reduces the formula to V =
>IdL/dt which says the voltage across the inductor will increase as the
>rate of change of inductance which, in this case, will be positive
>because the rod is moving into the coil increasing the inductance. But
>you say the voltage across the inductor will DROP. Why?
>
>This formula says the overall loop voltage will have to increase, ie
>driving force within the constant current power supply will have to
>increase (or loop resistance decrease),  in order to overcome the
>positive going EMF induced across the inductor to maintain constant
>current. Thus work is done within the power supply to maintain constant
>current. The actual work done is VxI where V is the driving voltaage
>within the power supply and I is the current plowing in the constant
>current loop.
>
>Correct?
>
>Maxwell.
>
>
>


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 03:18:57 1997
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Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 14:36:55 +0400
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: otecnor@emirates.net.ae (otecnor)
Subject: Re: Researches of Burr
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Hi,

Regarding Harold saxton Burr, you should be able to find something on :

Orgone Biophysical Research Laboratory
Greensprings Research and Educational Center
PO Box 1148, Ashland, Oregon 97520 USA
telephone/fax (541) 552-0118
e-mail:   demeo@mind.net
Internet Web Site for OBRL:
        http://id.mind.net/community/orgonelab/index.htm

I think James hold a compilation or extract of H.S.B works

With Best Regards

>Greetings to All,
>        Is anyone aware of and have information pertaining to the research of
>Harold Saxton Burr?  A reference is found in _The Secret Life of Plants_,
>page 195.  Anyone with information, or comments concerning the above
>writting, please contact me directly.
>
>        Sincerely,
>        Thomas A. Rice

FRANCK ROUSSEL
http://www.infoemirates.com/otecnor
otecnor@emirates.net.ae
Tel: -- 971 4 341 335
Fax: -- 971 4 341 271
Po box 4613 Dubai
United Arab Emirates
Time: GMT + 4


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 03:25:21 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: Researches of Burr

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Subject: Re: Researches of Burr
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Hi,

Regarding Harold saxton Burr, you should be able to find something on :

Orgone Biophysical Research Laboratory
Greensprings Research and Educational Center
PO Box 1148, Ashland, Oregon 97520 USA
telephone/fax (541) 552-0118
e-mail:   demeo@mind.net
Internet Web Site for OBRL:
        http://id.mind.net/community/orgonelab/index.htm

I think James hold a compilation or extract of H.S.B works

With Best Regards

>Greetings to All,
>        Is anyone aware of and have information pertaining to the research of
>Harold Saxton Burr?  A reference is found in _The Secret Life of Plants_,
>page 195.  Anyone with information, or comments concerning the above
>writting, please contact me directly.
>
>        Sincerely,
>        Thomas A. Rice

FRANCK ROUSSEL
http://www.infoemirates.com/otecnor
otecnor@emirates.net.ae
Tel: -- 971 4 341 335
Fax: -- 971 4 341 271
Po box 4613 Dubai
United Arab Emirates
Time: GMT + 4



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 03:32:12 1997
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From: mindtech@om.com.au
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 20:16:46 +1000
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: faster than light
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Seekers of the bizarre and unconventional who find solice in seeing the
"laws" of physics overtuned, note the article on page 187 in the March 1997
issue of "Electronic World".

It describes the properties of "elves", a "new" type of stratospheric
lightning which originates as a powerful EMP pulse advancing radially from a
conventional lightning stroke. Upon encountering the electrically charged
ionosphere (atoms), an expanding ring of superluminal light is generated. 

To quote:

"The pulse travels at the speed of light, with the first part of the wave
front hitting the ionosphere as a small ring above the lightning stroke.
This expands outward as portions of the pulse travel longer and longer
distances strike the ionosphere. The ring expands _faster than the speed of
light_ for the same reason that waves, when striking the beach at an angle,
travel along the shore at a faster speed than the waves move through the
water. Because of the ring's superluminal expansion rate, light from its
newer parts actually reaches the (measuring) instrument before the light
from the older parts ..."

Now, what about those faster than light electrons? 



PETER M. NIELSEN   ><   Ph: 61 66 85 5967  -  Fax: 61 66 86 3149  -
mindtech@om.com.au
Electronics Engineer   <>   PO Box 87, Byron Bay NSW 2481   AUSTRALIA
                                   
                                          
 

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faster than light

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From: mindtech@om.com.au
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 20:16:46 +1000
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Subject: faster than light
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Seekers of the bizarre and unconventional who find solice in seeing the
"laws" of physics overtuned, note the article on page 187 in the March 1997
issue of "Electronic World".

It describes the properties of "elves", a "new" type of stratospheric
lightning which originates as a powerful EMP pulse advancing radially from a
conventional lightning stroke. Upon encountering the electrically charged
ionosphere (atoms), an expanding ring of superluminal light is generated. 

To quote:

"The pulse travels at the speed of light, with the first part of the wave
front hitting the ionosphere as a small ring above the lightning stroke.
This expands outward as portions of the pulse travel longer and longer
distances strike the ionosphere. The ring expands _faster than the speed of
light_ for the same reason that waves, when striking the beach at an angle,
travel along the shore at a faster speed than the waves move through the
water. Because of the ring's superluminal expansion rate, light from its
newer parts actually reaches the (measuring) instrument before the light
from the older parts ..."

Now, what about those faster than light electrons? 



PETER M. NIELSEN   ><   Ph: 61 66 85 5967  -  Fax: 61 66 86 3149  -
mindtech@om.com.au
Electronics Engineer   <>   PO Box 87, Byron Bay NSW 2481   AUSTRALIA
                                   
                                          
 


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 03:43:03 1997
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Message-ID: <3368720F.7327@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 20:05:59 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Subject: Magnetic Forces
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--------------72AC2D2360E6
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Hi All,

I have been asked by several readers about the relative forces of
magnets in various configurations.

I ran a series of spacing verus magnet configuration.

The configurations I tested were :

1)  FF SN  (Ferrite to magnet attraction forces)

2)  SN SN  (2 magnets in attraction)

3)  NS SN  (2 magnets in opposition)

The sizes of the test samples were the same.  The magnet material as
ceramic.  The ferrite was steel.

The results are attached.  

The result is not what I would have expected.  I expected the opposing
results to be the greatest.  Just goes to show that magnets do strange
things.  Suspect the weak opposing results were due to the magnets being
driven down their B/H curves and reducing their flux output.

Enjoy.

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
                                          61 18 833 461  Mobile

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--------------72AC2D2360E6--


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 03:53:49 1997
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Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 20:19:59 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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To: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@eisa.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest
References: <33672D92.35C@microtronics.com.au> <336d2019.25355493@mail.eisa.net.au>
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 30 Apr 1997 21:01:30 +0930, Greg Watson wrote:
> [snip]
> >It is my intention for the basic technology of the unit to be available
> >to any and all by way of a upfront fee (depending on usage) and royality
> >fee (based on power generated).  Everything from a home generator to a
> >power station.
> Hi Greg,
> 
> If by "based on power generated" you mean "based on power generating
> capacity", then I wish you well. 

This is my intent.

> However I would consider any attempt
> to earn ongoing royalties from the "sale" of any energy generated to
> be an example of the worst kind of ripoff. Please make your intentions
> clear. 

I want the technology to be available to all.  I never expected ANY
mpney from the generation of power.  

The license fee will be based on that you wish to do.  IE any user who
wishes to build a unit would pay a one time fee for use of the
technology and a ongoing fee based on the size and number of generators
they wish to build.

I have NEVER had any intention to "TAX" energy generation.

> "Free-energy" has always been a dream of mine, and of many
> others, yourself included (I suspect). 

It is my dream too................

> To now want to charge for it
> would bear witness to greed beyond measure, because the profits from
> manufacturing and sale of the equipment alone would make you the
> richest man on earth anyway. Rich to the point you wouldn't know what
> to do with the money.

I plan to have many others who will share in the dream.  

I am not turned on by money.  Never have been.

> PS You can see by the effect this has on me, what effect it may also
> have on others.

Hi Robin,

I thank you for being so straight.  Sorry for not being clearer.

I have reposted your post.  I think it is important to share your
concerns with others.

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
                                          61 18 833 461  Mobile

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 05:27:49 1997
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From: "SAM GORDON" <lance@bluegrass.net>
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Subject: Re: faster than light
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:29:06 -0400
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I have seen this interesting accurance on a few weather videos studing
lightning
but I believe that these phenominon where called sprites. There was some
speculation about a year ago on the web and news groups web that the
science community wanted research done in the belief that in some way this
could be a future source for power.
Has anyone any information to back this up??


----------
> From: mindtech@om.com.au
> To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
> Subject: faster than light
> Date: Thursday, May 01, 1997 6:16 AM
> 
> Seekers of the bizarre and unconventional who find solice in seeing the
> "laws" of physics overtuned, note the article on page 187 in the March
1997
> issue of "Electronic World".
> 
> It describes the properties of "elves", a "new" type of stratospheric
> lightning which originates as a powerful EMP pulse advancing radially
from a
> conventional lightning stroke. Upon encountering the electrically charged
> ionosphere (atoms), an expanding ring of superluminal light is generated.

> 
> To quote:
> 
> "The pulse travels at the speed of light, with the first part of the wave
> front hitting the ionosphere as a small ring above the lightning stroke.
> This expands outward as portions of the pulse travel longer and longer
> distances strike the ionosphere. The ring expands _faster than the speed
of
> light_ for the same reason that waves, when striking the beach at an
angle,
> travel along the shore at a faster speed than the waves move through the
> water. Because of the ring's superluminal expansion rate, light from its
> newer parts actually reaches the (measuring) instrument before the light
> from the older parts ..."
> 
> Now, what about those faster than light electrons? 
> 
> 
> 
> PETER M. NIELSEN   ><   Ph: 61 66 85 5967  -  Fax: 61 66 86 3149  -
> mindtech@om.com.au
> Electronics Engineer   <>   PO Box 87, Byron Bay NSW 2481   AUSTRALIA
>                                    
>                                           
>  
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 05:35:05 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: faster than light

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I have seen this interesting accurance on a few weather videos studing
lightning
but I believe that these phenominon where called sprites. There was some
speculation about a year ago on the web and news groups web that the
science community wanted research done in the belief that in some way this
could be a future source for power.
Has anyone any information to back this up??


----------
> From: mindtech@om.com.au
> To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
> Subject: faster than light
> Date: Thursday, May 01, 1997 6:16 AM
> 
> Seekers of the bizarre and unconventional who find solice in seeing the
> "laws" of physics overtuned, note the article on page 187 in the March
1997
> issue of "Electronic World".
> 
> It describes the properties of "elves", a "new" type of stratospheric
> lightning which originates as a powerful EMP pulse advancing radially
from a
> conventional lightning stroke. Upon encountering the electrically charged
> ionosphere (atoms), an expanding ring of superluminal light is generated.

> 
> To quote:
> 
> "The pulse travels at the speed of light, with the first part of the wave
> front hitting the ionosphere as a small ring above the lightning stroke.
> This expands outward as portions of the pulse travel longer and longer
> distances strike the ionosphere. The ring expands _faster than the speed
of
> light_ for the same reason that waves, when striking the beach at an
angle,
> travel along the shore at a faster speed than the waves move through the
> water. Because of the ring's superluminal expansion rate, light from its
> newer parts actually reaches the (measuring) instrument before the light
> from the older parts ..."
> 
> Now, what about those faster than light electrons? 
> 
> 
> 
> PETER M. NIELSEN   ><   Ph: 61 66 85 5967  -  Fax: 61 66 86 3149  -
> mindtech@om.com.au
> Electronics Engineer   <>   PO Box 87, Byron Bay NSW 2481   AUSTRALIA
>                                    
>                                           
>  
> 


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 06:49:36 1997
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From: w9sz@prairienet.org (Zack Widup)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: faster than light
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>
>Seekers of the bizarre and unconventional who find solice in seeing the
>"laws" of physics overtuned, note the article on page 187 in the March 1997
>issue of "Electronic World".
>
>It describes the properties of "elves", a "new" type of stratospheric
>lightning which originates as a powerful EMP pulse advancing radially from a
>conventional lightning stroke. Upon encountering the electrically charged
>ionosphere (atoms), an expanding ring of superluminal light is generated. 

Is this the same thing as "Red Sprites and Blue Jets"?
Check out http://elf.gi.alaska.edu/sprites.html

>
>To quote:
>
>"The pulse travels at the speed of light, with the first part of the wave
>front hitting the ionosphere as a small ring above the lightning stroke.
>This expands outward as portions of the pulse travel longer and longer
>distances strike the ionosphere. The ring expands _faster than the speed of
>light_ for the same reason that waves, when striking the beach at an angle,
>travel along the shore at a faster speed than the waves move through the
>water. Because of the ring's superluminal expansion rate, light from its
>newer parts actually reaches the (measuring) instrument before the light
>from the older parts ..."
>
>Now, what about those faster than light electrons? 
>

Yes, it it possible for the wavefront phase to travel faster than the 
speed of light. This does not mean that the photons themselves are 
traveling that fast. (Altough it doesn't mean they aren't, either.)
This is an interesting phenomenon!

>
>
>PETER M. NIELSEN   ><   Ph: 61 66 85 5967  -  Fax: 61 66 86 3149  -
>mindtech@om.com.au
>Electronics Engineer   <>   PO Box 87, Byron Bay NSW 2481   AUSTRALIA

Zack


--

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 07:04:55 1997
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To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@eisa.net.au>
From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest
Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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At 8:19 PM 5/1/97, Greg Watson wrote:
[snip]
>
>I want the technology to be available to all.  I never expected ANY
>mpney from the generation of power.
>
>The license fee will be based on that you wish to do.  IE any user who
>wishes to build a unit would pay a one time fee for use of the
>technology and a ongoing fee based on the size and number of generators
>they wish to build.
>
[snip]

This is all premature isn't it?  Until the loop is closed and the
experiment independently replicated, there's nothing to sell reputably, is
there?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 07:18:45 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: Expressions of Interest

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au, Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@eisa.net.au>
From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest
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At 8:19 PM 5/1/97, Greg Watson wrote:
[snip]
>
>I want the technology to be available to all.  I never expected ANY
>mpney from the generation of power.
>
>The license fee will be based on that you wish to do.  IE any user who
>wishes to build a unit would pay a one time fee for use of the
>technology and a ongoing fee based on the size and number of generators
>they wish to build.
>
[snip]

This is all premature isn't it?  Until the loop is closed and the
experiment independently replicated, there's nothing to sell reputably, is
there?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 07:38:14 1997
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Horace Heffner wrote:

<snip>
 
> This is all premature isn't it?  Until the loop is closed and the
> experiment independently replicated, there's nothing to sell reputably, is
> there?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

Agreed!!!!

Personally, I'd like to hear Bill Beaty's ideas on how this ramp might
be operating conventionally.  It's interesting to see how little
attention his post on this idea generated.

How about it Bill?  Whats your thinking on this?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 08:19:14 1997
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Date: 01 May 1997 11:11 EDT
Sender: "Gene Batten" <mdleb@nortel.ca>
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From: "Gene Batten" <mdleb@nortel.ca>
Subject: re:Magnetic Forces
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Greg,

Very interesting data. Thanks for sharing it. What are the units on
the attached graph? When I detached the graph, there were no units
listed on the graph. It would be helpful to know if you are using
inches, centemeters, pounds, etc. My guess is that you are using
metric units. 

Could you also share how you obtained this data? I have no reason
to doubt it, I just wonder about the relative accuracy. 

I have always suspected that the attraction and repulsive forces of
magnets were not equal, but I never tried to measure it. 

Your data indicates a rather significant difference between attraction
and repulsion forces (if I understand your chart correctly).  So, if
this information really is what it appears to be, how can we exploit
this force difference to do work? 

Maybe you are already doing this?

Regards,
Gene Batten
mdleb@nortel.ca


In message "Magnetic Forces", you write:

> Hi All,
> 
> I have been asked by several readers about the relative forces of
> magnets in various configurations.
> 
> I ran a series of spacing verus magnet configuration.
> 
> The configurations I tested were :
> 
> 1)  FF SN  (Ferrite to magnet attraction forces)
> 
> 2)  SN SN  (2 magnets in attraction)
> 
> 3)  NS SN  (2 magnets in opposition)
> 
> The sizes of the test samples were the same.  The magnet material as
> ceramic.  The ferrite was steel.
> 
> The results are attached.  
> 
> The result is not what I would have expected.  I expected the opposing
> results to be the greatest.  Just goes to show that magnets do strange
> things.  Suspect the weak opposing results were due to the magnets being
> driven down their B/H curves and reducing their flux output.
> 
> Enjoy.
> 
> -- 
> Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
> Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>                                           61 18 833 461  Mobile
>     

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 09:57:18 1997
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From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Subject: re: Magnetic Forces
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>Greg,
>
>Very interesting data. Thanks for sharing it. What are the units on
>the attached graph? When I detached the graph, there were no units
snip---
>this information really is what it appears to be, how can we exploit
>this force difference to do work?
>
>Maybe you are already doing this?
>
>Regards,
>Gene Batten
>mdleb@nortel.ca
>
snip---
>>
>> The result is not what I would have expected.  I expected the opposing
>> results to be the greatest.  Just goes to show that magnets do strange
>> things.  Suspect the weak opposing results were due to the magnets being
>> driven down their B/H curves and reducing their flux output.
>>
>> Enjoy.
>> --
>> Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>> Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>>                                           61 18 833 461  Mobile

Dear List members,

With respect to the inequality of Attraction/Repulsion forces ---

To quote from page 91 [Chapter 16, GRAVITY, The Energy Machine of Joseph
Newman, originally published 1984]:

"Section 29-C

"The unlike charges will see to obtain the least possible distance between
themselves with respect to the two, separate masses; and the like charges
will seek to obtain the greatest possible distance between themselves with
respect to the two separate masses.  [Remember that the charges being
simultaneously repelled are also being simultaneously attracted and such
charges cannot physically move far from one another.]

"Consider the implication of the Inverse-Square Law with respect to the
attracting or repelling force of charges.  The most dominant forces are
those _between_ the charges existing _within_ each separate mass.
Consequently, THE ATTRACTION FORCE IS GREATER THAN THE REPULSION FORCE
between the two separate masses -- but (as an order of magnitude) _this
difference is unimaginably small_.  [A simple mathematical analogy
demonstrates this "unimaginably small" difference:  If we assign to equal
attraction and repulsion forces a "unity of 1," then the difference (in the
attracting forces being greater than the repulsion forces) would be an
extremely small percentage of such "unity of 1," e.g., only .0001.]

"Such a small difference is clearly demonstrated by the fact that the
attraction force of Gravity (the observed _effect_ of the interaction of
unobserved electromagnetic fields comprising Matter) is _extremely less_
than the ("unity of 1") attraction/repulsion forces of _Obvious_ electrical
charges as well as those same forces (gyroscopic-action-particles) which
comprise magnetic fields or Matter itself.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"As a result of such Unequaling Forces, the
ATTRACTION FORCE IS ALWAYS MINUTELY GREATER
THAN THE REPULSION FORCE."

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Section 29-D.

"I hypothesize that the following represents the Law of Gravity with
respect to the Inverse-square Law:  The difference in the Unequaling Forces
(in accordance with the law of distances sought between "like" and "unlike"
gyroscopic-action-particles) of the two, above-mentioned masses causes a
Force of Gravity to be a very small percentage (example only: .0001 of a
"unity of 1") of the equally attracting and repulsion forces having a
"unity of 1."  [Refer to Section 25-E.]

"Such equal forces (with a "unity of 1") represent a balance of all the
"negative" and "positive" gyroscopic-action-particles comprising all
Matter.
[I remind the reader that such "negative" and "positive"
gyroscopic-action-particles are actually composed of only one type of
gyroscopic-action-entity which appears to move in opposite directions
depending upon the frame of reference of the observer.]

"As a result of such Unequaling Forces, the ATTRACTION force is always
MINUTELY GREATER than the REPULSION force.  Such an inequality of forces is
still incredibly less than the attraction/repulsion forces of _Obvious_
electric charges or magnetism which have a "unity (force) of 1."

"NOTE:  For the convenience of expression, I am arbitrarily assigning this
"unity (force) of 1" value to electric charges and magnetism in order to
provide the reader with some subjective means to distinguish such forces
from the very weak gravitational force which would have --- as an order of
magnitude --- a value of approximately .0001 based upon the above forces
having a value of "1."

 --- Joseph Newman

Posted by:

Evan Soule'
Director of Information
NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS
josephnewman@earthlink.net
(504) 524-3063
P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684
Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087
          http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html


".... the magnetic field consists of gyroscopic-type particles which are
the mechanical essence of E=mc^2 and represent an orderly flow of kinetic
energy."
                              --- JOSEPH NEWMAN



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 10:05:01 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
re: Magnetic Forces

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:59:39 -0600
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Subject: re: Magnetic Forces
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>Greg,
>
>Very interesting data. Thanks for sharing it. What are the units on
>the attached graph? When I detached the graph, there were no units
snip---
>this information really is what it appears to be, how can we exploit
>this force difference to do work?
>
>Maybe you are already doing this?
>
>Regards,
>Gene Batten
>mdleb@nortel.ca
>
snip---
>>
>> The result is not what I would have expected.  I expected the opposing
>> results to be the greatest.  Just goes to show that magnets do strange
>> things.  Suspect the weak opposing results were due to the magnets being
>> driven down their B/H curves and reducing their flux output.
>>
>> Enjoy.
>> --
>> Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>> Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>>                                           61 18 833 461  Mobile

Dear List members,

With respect to the inequality of Attraction/Repulsion forces ---

To quote from page 91 [Chapter 16, GRAVITY, The Energy Machine of Joseph
Newman, originally published 1984]:

"Section 29-C

"The unlike charges will see to obtain the least possible distance between
themselves with respect to the two, separate masses; and the like charges
will seek to obtain the greatest possible distance between themselves with
respect to the two separate masses.  [Remember that the charges being
simultaneously repelled are also being simultaneously attracted and such
charges cannot physically move far from one another.]

"Consider the implication of the Inverse-Square Law with respect to the
attracting or repelling force of charges.  The most dominant forces are
those _between_ the charges existing _within_ each separate mass.
Consequently, THE ATTRACTION FORCE IS GREATER THAN THE REPULSION FORCE
between the two separate masses -- but (as an order of magnitude) _this
difference is unimaginably small_.  [A simple mathematical analogy
demonstrates this "unimaginably small" difference:  If we assign to equal
attraction and repulsion forces a "unity of 1," then the difference (in the
attracting forces being greater than the repulsion forces) would be an
extremely small percentage of such "unity of 1," e.g., only .0001.]

"Such a small difference is clearly demonstrated by the fact that the
attraction force of Gravity (the observed _effect_ of the interaction of
unobserved electromagnetic fields comprising Matter) is _extremely less_
than the ("unity of 1") attraction/repulsion forces of _Obvious_ electrical
charges as well as those same forces (gyroscopic-action-particles) which
comprise magnetic fields or Matter itself.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"As a result of such Unequaling Forces, the
ATTRACTION FORCE IS ALWAYS MINUTELY GREATER
THAN THE REPULSION FORCE."

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"Section 29-D.

"I hypothesize that the following represents the Law of Gravity with
respect to the Inverse-square Law:  The difference in the Unequaling Forces
(in accordance with the law of distances sought between "like" and "unlike"
gyroscopic-action-particles) of the two, above-mentioned masses causes a
Force of Gravity to be a very small percentage (example only: .0001 of a
"unity of 1") of the equally attracting and repulsion forces having a
"unity of 1."  [Refer to Section 25-E.]

"Such equal forces (with a "unity of 1") represent a balance of all the
"negative" and "positive" gyroscopic-action-particles comprising all
Matter.
[I remind the reader that such "negative" and "positive"
gyroscopic-action-particles are actually composed of only one type of
gyroscopic-action-entity which appears to move in opposite directions
depending upon the frame of reference of the observer.]

"As a result of such Unequaling Forces, the ATTRACTION force is always
MINUTELY GREATER than the REPULSION force.  Such an inequality of forces is
still incredibly less than the attraction/repulsion forces of _Obvious_
electric charges or magnetism which have a "unity (force) of 1."

"NOTE:  For the convenience of expression, I am arbitrarily assigning this
"unity (force) of 1" value to electric charges and magnetism in order to
provide the reader with some subjective means to distinguish such forces
from the very weak gravitational force which would have --- as an order of
magnitude --- a value of approximately .0001 based upon the above forces
having a value of "1."

 --- Joseph Newman

Posted by:

Evan Soule'
Director of Information
NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS
josephnewman@earthlink.net
(504) 524-3063
P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684
Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087
          http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html


".... the magnetic field consists of gyroscopic-type particles which are
the mechanical essence of E=mc^2 and represent an orderly flow of kinetic
energy."
                              --- JOSEPH NEWMAN




From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 12:49:59 1997
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Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 12:49:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705011948.PAA18296@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: Tesla Page HAs Been Updated With...
To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com (science)
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:48:36 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
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My TESLA BOOKSTORE PAGE HAS BEEN UPDATED!  I have many new books and sites
as well is some images.  If you are looking to learn about Tesla or get a
copy of EVERY patient, then this is the place to look.  I have many books
covering almost every subject about Tesla!  Please take a peek at:
http://www.frognet.net/~cantino/tesla/tesla.html
Andrew Cantino -- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 14:11:29 1997
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Message-ID: <3369147A.1432@keelynet.com>
Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 15:08:58 -0700
From: Jerry Decker <jdecker@keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Researches of Burr
References: <3.0.1.16.19970501022910.2d9f99aa@holly.colostate.edu>
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Hi Thomas!

Harold Saxton Burr, editor of a Yale Journal (can't remember on what), 
discovered what he called an 'electrodynamic field' which is similar to 
Rupert Sheldrakes 'morphogenetic field' and which appears to be a kind of 
dynamic and very complex electrical pattern possibly even an 'attenuating 
Meissner field' (it gets weaker with age).

The best book is 'Blueprint for Destiny' written by a fellow named 
Russell, then there is another book that has 'Life' in the title, but 
can't recall it, have a copy somewhere around here, will look it up, they 
were VERY HARD TO FIND, but Burr has been a hero of mine since I was 
about 16....

He did long term experiments with trees to monitor their electrical 
fields for many years (I remember something about 30 years for one tree) 
and developed a means of measuring ovulation in human females by 
inserting a couple of fingers into a saltwater mixture...the books have 
details on his many experiments....

Russell postulated two kinds of fields in his book 'Blueprint', an L 
field (for Life) that actually produced the field (aura) which the body 
recorded in the form of tissue and the M field (doesn't sound right) but 
it had to do with the mind being the creator and sustainer of the L 
field.

The idea was that by sustained thought you could alter the L field to 
produce healing or mutation as desired.....and there are dozens of 
reports, if not hundreds that verify tissue can experience 'spontaneuos 
mutation' or in response to stimuli or environment, not requiring 
thousands of years....

Anyway, I'll look for my books and get you the titles...you can also try 
      http://www.amazon.com    for thousands of book titles or
you can try for an interlibrary loan.....I could stay home all the time 
and read very rare books borrowed from libraries all over the 
US....seeya!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker@keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 14:57:26 1997
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Resent-Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 14:57:17 -0700
Message-ID: <01BC563F.B134B0C0@ristra.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: energy travel velocity
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 14:55:20 -0700
Encoding: 26 TEXT, 42 UUENCODE
X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00
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Hi all, please forgive if this subject has been covered, but...

Fred Epps wrote:

>   I think the electrostatic potential is simultaneous. At the instant
>the switch is closed (in a circuit with a switch, a load, and a
>resistor) the potential gradient is established over the circuit and the
>current begins to flow. Several experiments have shown that energy can
>travel through a wire at many times c.

!!!

So this would mean that information can be / is transmitted FTL? I thought 
that speed of propagation was theoretically one of the limiting factors in 
designing faster computer circuits?

>   The current doesn't need to believe there is a return path, it knows
>there is one.
>                              Fred

Well, on a really long scale, how does it know? can we fool it? :-)


Dan



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M<RD93?1$T2!F)*)1OU)H]R%226\[7E<6,1S@/W%.4M]$@Q<P1>$$\ = 91S@
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end

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 18:46:25 1997
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Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 01:33:27 -0700
From: Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
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Subject: Wacky patents!
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Here is an amusing link for all patent-heads

http://colitz.com/site/wackyf.htm
---
Maxwell

Eccles:     "Hey! What are you doing here?!"
Bluebottle: "Dont you talk to me that way my man.
            Dont you know that I have 2 O-levels and a budgerigar?"
Spike Milligan - Goon Show -

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 18:54:40 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Wacky patents!

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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Message-ID: <33685557.B6E@triode.net.au>
Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 01:33:27 -0700
From: Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
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Here is an amusing link for all patent-heads

http://colitz.com/site/wackyf.htm
---
Maxwell

Eccles:     "Hey! What are you doing here?!"
Bluebottle: "Dont you talk to me that way my man.
            Dont you know that I have 2 O-levels and a budgerigar?"
Spike Milligan - Goon Show -


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 19:27:33 1997
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Message-ID: <33695098.684E@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 11:55:28 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest
References: <v01530502af8e53284631@[199.237.131.232]>
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Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> At 8:19 PM 5/1/97, Greg Watson wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> >I want the technology to be available to all.  I never expected ANY
> >mpney from the generation of power.
> >
> >The license fee will be based on that you wish to do.  IE any user who
> >wishes to build a unit would pay a one time fee for use of the
> >technology and a ongoing fee based on the size and number of generators
> >they wish to build.
> >
> [snip]
> 
> This is all premature isn't it?  Until the loop is closed and the
> experiment independently replicated, there's nothing to sell reputably, is
> there?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

Hi Horace,

I agree, thats why I asked for expressions of interest and NOT MONEY.

I hope to be able to generate enough interest to be able to take the
device to the next stage using the talents and money which exist with-in
these groups.

My request for expressions of interest was to judge the amount and level
of support available.

I am not asking for your money Horace, only a expression of your
interest.

If I can't deliver, its my face which will wear the egg.

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
                                          61 18 833 461  Mobile

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 19:48:10 1997
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Message-ID: <3369558A.C9@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 12:16:34 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Gene Batten wrote:
> 
> Greg,
> 
> Very interesting data. Thanks for sharing it. What are the units on
> the attached graph? When I detached the graph, there were no units
> listed on the graph. It would be helpful to know if you are using
> inches, centemeters, pounds, etc. My guess is that you are using
> metric units.

Magnets / ferrite was 10cm thick, 15cm wide and 100cm long.

The x axis (spacing) is in Cms.

The y axis (force) is in Newtons

> Could you also share how you obtained this data? I have no reason
> to doubt it, I just wonder about the relative accuracy.

The data was from Quick Field simulations and backed up by actual
(simple) testing.

> I have always suspected that the attraction and repulsive forces of
> magnets were not equal, but I never tried to measure it.

The reduction in opposing forces is due to the magnets being forced down
their B/H curves and therefore reducing their face generated field
strength.

The attractive forces drive the magnets up their B/H curves and increase
their face generated field strengths.

What really suprised me was the opposing plot tracks the ferromagnetic
plot.

I suspect the use of stiffer magnetic material would generate plots
closer together.

> Your data indicates a rather significant difference between attraction
> and repulsion forces (if I understand your chart correctly).  So, if
> this information really is what it appears to be, how can we exploit
> this force difference to do work?
> 
> Maybe you are already doing this?
> 
> Regards,
> Gene Batten

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
                                          61 18 833 461  Mobile

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 20:10:02 1997
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From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Subject: FYI
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List Members:  I relay the following important message to you from Dr,
Woolman.  Please read, note the new URL and lets take this campaign to the
next level.  This push will hopefully accomplish the amending of the current
Senate patent bill to come in line with the recently passed House version.
Let's let all the Senate get the message loud and clear.

Tucson Kid
pmurray@azstarnet.com
Blazing Barrels Posts

Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 18:09:30 +0100
From: "R. Daniel Woolman" <woolman@in-search-of.com>
Reply-To: woolman@in-search-of.com
Organization: In Search Of. . .
To: InventorsD@aol.com
Subject: On S 507 - ISO E-mail campaign
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Hello everyone,

This will be my last post to you concerning Senate Bill S 507.

We have sent a total of 300 individual letters to every member of the
Senate Judiciary in the last two days. The total number of letters thus
far mailed on this effort now stands at 5,400.

It is now time to include the full senate in our efforts. I have
rewritten the initial letter sent to the Judiciary. It appears that
either John Ashcroft, or Fred Thompson, or perhaps even both may
consider an amendment to S 507. This is only my opinion and can not be
substantiated at this time.

The new ISO E-mail page for the Judiciary is:

http://www.in-search-of.com/frames/government/campaign/s507.shtml

Additionally, I have placed a letter written for the entire US Senate
concerning our opposition at:

http://www.in-search-of.com/frames/government/campaign/s507_senate.shtml

So, it is now time to come back to ISO and mail to the US Senate
Judiciary and the full US Senate!

I apologize to those of you who did not want to receive this mail.

Most respectfully,

R. Daniel Woolman, Ph.D.
--
http://www.in-search-of.com/directory.shtml


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 20:17:47 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
FYI

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List Members:  I relay the following important message to you from Dr,
Woolman.  Please read, note the new URL and lets take this campaign to the
next level.  This push will hopefully accomplish the amending of the current
Senate patent bill to come in line with the recently passed House version.
Let's let all the Senate get the message loud and clear.

Tucson Kid
pmurray@azstarnet.com
Blazing Barrels Posts

Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 18:09:30 +0100
From: "R. Daniel Woolman" <woolman@in-search-of.com>
Reply-To: woolman@in-search-of.com
Organization: In Search Of. . .
To: InventorsD@aol.com
Subject: On S 507 - ISO E-mail campaign
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello everyone,

This will be my last post to you concerning Senate Bill S 507.

We have sent a total of 300 individual letters to every member of the
Senate Judiciary in the last two days. The total number of letters thus
far mailed on this effort now stands at 5,400.

It is now time to include the full senate in our efforts. I have
rewritten the initial letter sent to the Judiciary. It appears that
either John Ashcroft, or Fred Thompson, or perhaps even both may
consider an amendment to S 507. This is only my opinion and can not be
substantiated at this time.

The new ISO E-mail page for the Judiciary is:

http://www.in-search-of.com/frames/government/campaign/s507.shtml

Additionally, I have placed a letter written for the entire US Senate
concerning our opposition at:

http://www.in-search-of.com/frames/government/campaign/s507_senate.shtml

So, it is now time to come back to ISO and mail to the US Senate
Judiciary and the full US Senate!

I apologize to those of you who did not want to receive this mail.

Most respectfully,

R. Daniel Woolman, Ph.D.
--
http://www.in-search-of.com/directory.shtml



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  1 23:02:07 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: Researches of Burr

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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Message-ID: <3369147A.1432@keelynet.com>
Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 15:08:58 -0700
From: Jerry Decker <jdecker@keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
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Hi Thomas!

Harold Saxton Burr, editor of a Yale Journal (can't remember on what), 
discovered what he called an 'electrodynamic field' which is similar to 
Rupert Sheldrakes 'morphogenetic field' and which appears to be a kind of 
dynamic and very complex electrical pattern possibly even an 'attenuating 
Meissner field' (it gets weaker with age).

The best book is 'Blueprint for Destiny' written by a fellow named 
Russell, then there is another book that has 'Life' in the title, but 
can't recall it, have a copy somewhere around here, will look it up, they 
were VERY HARD TO FIND, but Burr has been a hero of mine since I was 
about 16....

He did long term experiments with trees to monitor their electrical 
fields for many years (I remember something about 30 years for one tree) 
and developed a means of measuring ovulation in human females by 
inserting a couple of fingers into a saltwater mixture...the books have 
details on his many experiments....

Russell postulated two kinds of fields in his book 'Blueprint', an L 
field (for Life) that actually produced the field (aura) which the body 
recorded in the form of tissue and the M field (doesn't sound right) but 
it had to do with the mind being the creator and sustainer of the L 
field.

The idea was that by sustained thought you could alter the L field to 
produce healing or mutation as desired.....and there are dozens of 
reports, if not hundreds that verify tissue can experience 'spontaneuos 
mutation' or in response to stimuli or environment, not requiring 
thousands of years....

Anyway, I'll look for my books and get you the titles...you can also try 
      http://www.amazon.com    for thousands of book titles or
you can try for an interlibrary loan.....I could stay home all the time 
and read very rare books borrowed from libraries all over the 
US....seeya!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker@keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 04:02:27 1997
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Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:01:46 +0200 (METDST)
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Jean-Pierre Lentin <lentin@imaginet.fr>
Subject: TV program in France
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Freenrgians

This is to announce, specially formember of this list in France and Belgium,
the airing of our documentary about new energy and alternative science,
saturday may 10th, 13 h 30, on the TV channel Canal Plus (in a weekly series
called L=92=9Cil du cyclone / Eye of the cyclone).

The film is called =AB Ils vont sauver la planete ! =BB (They=92re going to=
 save
the planet ! ). It features Martin Fleischmann, Jim Griggs, Frank Stenger &
Frank Znidarsic, Hal Fox, Teruo Kawai, Reidar Finsrud, Stanley Meyer, James
E. Bare, Gaston Naessens, Arthur C. Clarke and French researchers Jacques
Benveniste, Joel Sternheimer, Guy Arnaud and Gilles Thuny.

Thanks to every one who helped !

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jean-Pierre Lentin
lentin@imaginet.fr

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
TV program in France

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Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:01:46 +0200 (METDST)
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From: Jean-Pierre Lentin <lentin@imaginet.fr>
Subject: TV program in France
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Freenrgians

This is to announce, specially formember of this list in France and Belgium,
the airing of our documentary about new energy and alternative science,
saturday may 10th, 13 h 30, on the TV channel Canal Plus (in a weekly series
called L=92=9Cil du cyclone / Eye of the cyclone).

The film is called =AB Ils vont sauver la planete ! =BB (They=92re going to=
 save
the planet ! ). It features Martin Fleischmann, Jim Griggs, Frank Stenger &
Frank Znidarsic, Hal Fox, Teruo Kawai, Reidar Finsrud, Stanley Meyer, James
E. Bare, Gaston Naessens, Arthur C. Clarke and French researchers Jacques
Benveniste, Joel Sternheimer, Guy Arnaud and Gilles Thuny.

Thanks to every one who helped !

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jean-Pierre Lentin
lentin@imaginet.fr

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 04:43:19 1997
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Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 21:12:14 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Greg -
> 
>    >  My request for expressions of interest was
>    >  to judge the amount and level of support
>    >  available.
> 
> Greg, I doubt the level of interest is any higher than you see now it
> because it's already pressed pretty hard up against the ceiling! This is
> the reason many people have joined these lists in the first place, to see
> if such things are possible and to find out how they might be constructed,
> tested, and ultimately exploited to provide cheap/"free" energy to the
> world. It's why I'm here. I think we're *all* very interested. But what can
> we do? Apparently as of this moment you still have patent and secrecy
> considerations on the technology, and perhaps you are not completely sure
> that you've got a working model on your hands which unequivocally shows an
> overunity effect. We ordinary list denizens really can't do anything about
> it until you've got things to the point where you are completely
> comfortable and confident of *demonstrable & duplicable* OU and of showing
> it publically at least, if not putting various people here under NDA and
> sending working models or plans.
> 
> What's *your* plan with this? What's *your* schedule? I've been on the edge
> of my seat here for weeks now waiting to see the triumphant messages about
> how you've closed the loop and it keeps going like that damn pink rabbit.
> 
> You've got all the interest and attention you need here, IMO. You've got
> labs like EarthTech and people like Gene/Jed/Chris and other qualified
> scientists and engineers who I'm sure would love to measure and verify what
> you've got. The rest of us (like me) can be your cheering section. When
> you're ready, I'm sure the folks on this list will be too.
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI

Hi Rick,

Thanks for the genuine comments.  

Looks like I have been too close to this thing.  Maybe I can't see the
woods for the trees.

I have explained the results I am getting with my linear model.  I ask
for feedback as to where and / or how I may be making a mistake.  I ask
for feedback as to how I can improve my test setup.  But the only
feedback I get is "CLOSE THE LOOP".  

I can show a real energy gain and I ask for comment on where the energy
may be coming from.  What do I get, "CLOSE THE LOOP".

I express concern for the cost of using this energy and ask for
comment.  "CLOSE THE LOOP" comes back.

When I do close the loop, with all respect, don't need the unit to be
tested to tell me its working.  Any pair of Mark 1 human eyes will do
the job very well.

I asked for feedback to involve ALL of you in this.  I expected more
than just a group of "CLOSE THE LOOP" lurkers.  Thats why I asked for
expressions of interest.  I am trying to sort the interest.

Maybe I am too close and have got this reply all wrong.  I don't want to
offend anyone.  If I do, I apologize in advance.  You probably don't
realize how much I value the feedback from this group (both positive and
negative).  But I get so little.

I set up a special interest group to discuss and duplicate elements of
the device my patent attorney will allow me to disclose without choping
my keyboard cable.  But even with them I can only go so far, although
some are getting warm.

I have done a business plan and cash flow for the first 12 months and
will be looking at raising around US $750,000.  I still hope to be able
to raise that much from here.  I want to keep this thing as public as
possible.  I would rather have 500 investors at $1,500 each than 1 at
$750,000.  Large investors are hard to work with as they know the golden
rule, IE.... "He Who Has The Gold, Makes The Rules".


Remember:

  NONE OF US IS AS SMART AS ALL OF US.


-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
                                          61 18 833 461  Mobile

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 07:02:54 1997
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Greg Watson wrote:
 
> I have explained the results I am getting with my linear model.  I ask
> for feedback as to where and / or how I may be making a mistake.  I ask
> for feedback as to how I can improve my test setup.  But the only
> feedback I get is "CLOSE THE LOOP".

Not quite correct Greg!
 
> I can show a real energy gain and I ask for comment on where the energy
> may be coming from.  What do I get, "CLOSE THE LOOP".

What about Bill's posting that magnets, like springs, can indeed do
work, and that
there may be a conservatitive explaination for the device?

Clearly this was not a call to close the loop, but to eliminate any
possible conventional explainations.

I don't think this has been done yet.
 
> I express concern for the cost of using this energy and ask for
> comment.  "CLOSE THE LOOP" comes back.
>
> When I do close the loop, with all respect, don't need the unit to be
> tested to tell me its working.  Any pair of Mark 1 human eyes will do
> the job very well.

Can you see that the magnets have not lost any potential, however small
this loss might be?  Mark 1 human eyes are not sufficient, their track
record in evaluating over unity systems is dismal at best.
 
> I asked for feedback to involve ALL of you in this.  I expected more
> than just a group of "CLOSE THE LOOP" lurkers.  Thats why I asked for
> expressions of interest.  I am trying to sort the interest.

It seems that the reaction to feedback is very selective on nearly
everyones part.

> Maybe I am too close and have got this reply all wrong.  I don't want to
> offend anyone.  If I do, I apologize in advance.  You probably don't
> realize how much I value the feedback from this group (both positive and
> negative).  But I get so little.

Ok, please lets be really sure that we have eliminated any possible
conventional explaination before we assume (and that is the correct word
in this case) that we have an over unity effect.

Mark 1 eyeballs are known not to have a reasonable success rate at
evaluating energy input and output ratios.  Look at the magnetic gate
thread as an example of how this level of testing simply fails to show
us whats really going on in magnetic systems.

> I set up a special interest group to discuss and duplicate elements of
> the device my patent attorney will allow me to disclose without choping
> my keyboard cable.  But even with them I can only go so far, although
> some are getting warm.

The magnetic experiment posted by Jean looks a lot like this ramp
device, and seems to predate it as well.  Does this present any patent
issues?  Is the device in Jean's posting conventional (conservative),
and/or does it operate in the same manner as your device?

> I have done a business plan and cash flow for the first 12 months and
> will be looking at raising around US $750,000.  I still hope to be able
> to raise that much from here.  I want to keep this thing as public as
> possible.  I would rather have 500 investors at $1,500 each than 1 at
> $750,000.  Large investors are hard to work with as they know the golden
> rule, IE.... "He Who Has The Gold, Makes The Rules".

Personally, I think you have your cart way out in front of your horse
here Greg.

We must consider and eliminate any possible conventional explainations. 
Bill posted quite some time ago that he may have a conventional
explaination, and I saw no responses to his posting at all.

It seems that the possibility of a conventional explaination has been
dismissed without any real discussion, mush less actual testing.  This
is a very big danger sign to me.

Before contacting a lawyer and investigating the level of commercial
interest, you might have made a simple (boiler plate NDA) agreement with
another researcher, and had them duplicate the device.  It seems that
the only efforts at reproduction have not been exact duplications of the
original.

I'm also not at all sure how much actual testing of the apparent energy
gain has been done.  This should be an important first step in my
opinion.  How do you know that your not using stored potential from the
magnets if we don't have good measurments of the apparent energy gain?

I should think that all these questions and many more would need to be
addressed before testing the potential investment waters.

If the measurments were made with the level of detail needed to put a
business plan together for a three-quarters of a million dollars, we
would know a lot more about this device than we do today.  A great many
people want to beleive in ANY over unity system that they do not look at
possible conventional explainations before assuming that their effect is
unconventional.

History shows us that this is a very dangerous path.  

I would like to see an expression of interest (on your part) in
protecting your potential investors from suffering a loss before you
test the investment waters.  Eliminate any and all possible conventional
explainations, have the device exactly duplicated by another researcher
(under a solid NDA of course!) and get detailed measurments, not Mark 1
eyeball guesstimates and assumptions.

Please understand the long history of claimed free energy devices. Note
that in the vast majority of cases, exact reproductions, proper
(detailed)  measurments were not made, and conventional effects and
explainations were not first eliminated before the assumption was made
that something unconventional was at work.

How many of these devices ever passed muster in the long run?  (None!)

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 07:29:44 1997
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Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:28:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: woods@most.weird.com (Greg A. Woods)
To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest
In-Reply-To: Greg Watson's message
	of "Fri, May 2, 1997 21:12:14 +0930"
	regarding "Re: Expressions of Interest"
	id <3369D316.5665@microtronics.com.au>
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	<3369D316.5665@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: woods@weird.com (Greg A. Woods)
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[ On Fri, May 2, 1997 at 21:12:14 (+0930), Greg Watson wrote: ]
> Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest
>
> I express concern for the cost of using this energy and ask for
> comment.  "CLOSE THE LOOP" comes back.

I assure you I to would rather know the source of the energy than to
just explit it unknowingly!

BTW, in recent recreational reading on an entirely different subject
I've found reference to papers by Ralph E. Juergens who writes (in these
instances) about the effect of the Sun's electrical field on the
rotation of the Earth.  He claims there have been measurements made by
Andre Danjon in 1960 and by Plagmann and Gribbin in 1972 that show the
rotation of the Earth has been temporarily slowed down (by microseconds)
during the effect of large solar flares. [in a journal called Kronos,
Volume II, 2, pp. 15-16 and 3, pp. 12-15]

Perhaps what you're observing is a similar or related effect.  I've no
idea what this might imply, but if these guys are right, and your effect
is related, the consequences could be quite devastating, if only on a
longer term.

(NOTE:  I know little or nothing of the journal Kronos, though I
understand it is a peer review publication.  Be skeptical.  I've only
read small quotations from these papers.)

-- 
							Greg A. Woods

+1 416 443-1734			VE3TCP			robohack!woods
Planix, Inc. <woods@planix.com>; Secrets of the Weird <woods@weird.com>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 09:36:15 1997
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Message-ID: <01BC56DC.052BED50@ristra.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: permanent? magnets
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 09:34:22 -0700
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A while back someone asked if there have been any studies on permanent 
magnets that have been in use for a long time, to see what changes may have 
occurred. I don't recall seeing any response to that. PM electric motors 
and the like have been around for a long time now, so it seems we should 
have some information about long-term effects. Does anyone know of such 
information?

Dan

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 10:14:04 1997
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From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Expressions of Interest
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:12:16 -0700
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Greg, Bob, and all:

Bob and others seem concerned that there may be a conventional explanation 
for the device, that it is not "overunity". But overunity is just a 
relative term, isn't it? I mean, coal could be looked at as overunity 
because *we* didn't put the energy into it, right? Depends on how big you 
draw the box.

If indeed the magnets lose potential over time, so what? Whether that is an 
issue or not depends on how much energy we can get out of them compared to 
how long it takes to wear them out and how much energy went into 
magnetizing them. *if* they are wearing out, and *if* we get lots of clean 
energy out of them, then they are very efficient, clean, compact energy 
storage batteries. That in itself would be valuable. Maybe not worth 
$billions, only millions :-)

Closing the loop is important. It is the best can't-fool-you measure of 
input vs output energy when the difference is subtle. I'll have to see that 
before I invest money. But it's not the only important thing here, and 
Greg's right to want to develop other aspects of the idea further before 
needing to close the loop. He's not asking for investment, he's asking who 
*might* invest "if I can demonstrate a working unit". If he's getting close 
to a working model, it's reasonable to be testing the investment waters.

About the device posted by Jean-Louis Naudin from "Sciences et Vie": it is 
a related device, but it is using quite a different magnetic configuration. 
Also, its exit point is 10mm below its entry point; Greg's is quite an 
improvement in design and efficiency. Additionally, it doesn't seem like 
Greg is looking to patent the ramp itself. No conflict there, it seems.

Dan

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 10:24:05 1997
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From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>,
        "freenrg-l@eskimo.com"
	 <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Simple OU Device effects
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:21:29 -0700
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This started out as a preliminary stab at the effects of using Greg's 
magnetic ramp as an energy source. But it ends up skirting the issue, and 
becomes sort of a way of conventionally explaining what's going on, in real 
shallow terms :-).

First, magnets have been doing work ever since we started using them. When 
you put a magnet up on the refrigerator, it does work as it pulls your hand 
with it toward the metal. You do an equivalent amount of work when you 
un-stick it later, but the magnet still did work. The magnet's work was 
balanced by your work.

Gravity also does work, no? When you climb up a flight of stairs, you do 
lots of work to counter gravity. If you fall back down, gravity has done 
work. The system is balanced (even if you are not).

In a permanent-magnet motor, the magnets are doing work. It is balanced by 
the work of the electromagnets, using electricity as their energy source.

Permanent magnets are in wide use, and they are doing work. It's just that 
their work is usually balanced by energies that we provide.

Greg's ramp is using one form of energy (gravitational) that we usually 
have to balance with our own energy, to offset another form of energy 
(magnetic) that we also usually have to balance with our own efforts. No 
big deal, right?

Does anyone ever wonder whether we're depleting the Earth's gravitational 
energy when we fall down?

In the same way, we've never stopped to wonder what the *efffects* of using 
magnets may be. Greg's asking a good question that maybe should be answered 
for our current, "conventional" widespread use of magnets.


Dan

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 13:38:31 1997
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Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:43:12 -0800
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Looking for meter
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I am trying to locate a reasonably priced meter to measure very low
currents (in nA) and voltages (uV).  The best I've located so far is The
TENMA  AC Millivolt Meter ($175 from MCM Electronics, cat #72-450).  It has
the disadvantage of being AC voltage only and analog, but goes down to a
0-300 uV range, and has amplified output for an oscilloscope.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 14:06:35 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Looking for meter

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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Contents:

 1 Internet Message Header
 2 <no topic>

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From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Looking for meter
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I am trying to locate a reasonably priced meter to measure very low
currents (in nA) and voltages (uV).  The best I've located so far is The
TENMA  AC Millivolt Meter ($175 from MCM Electronics, cat #72-450).  It has
the disadvantage of being AC voltage only and analog, but goes down to a
0-300 uV range, and has amplified output for an oscilloscope.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          



================================== End Part 2 ==================================

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 14:38:22 1997
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Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 17:37:36 -0700
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Subject: Re: permanent? magnets
References: <01BC56DC.052BED50@ristra.ucdavis.edu>
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Dan Quickert wrote:
> 
> A while back someone asked if there have been any studies on permanent
> magnets that have been in use for a long time, to see what changes may have
> occurred. I don't recall seeing any response to that. PM electric motors
> and the like have been around for a long time now, so it seems we should
> have some information about long-term effects. Does anyone know of such
> information?
> 
> Dan

Yep, they demagnetize in many situations.  This is due to several
reasons such as heat, shock, and induced counter EMF effects.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 14:54:56 1997
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From: Keasy@aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:53:07 -0400 (EDT)
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I don't have any references, but I know the standard theory is, and my
experience has been, so long as you do not introduce reverse fields large
enough to actually start to demagnetize a magnet, a "good" magnet is not in
any measurable way effected by use.  ie you can use it in reversible field
configurations indefinitely without in any way "consuming" its energy.  Does
anyone else have any other opinions?



                                                                        Keasy

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 15:10:57 1997
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Dan Quickert wrote:

> Greg, Bob, and all:
> 
> Bob and others seem concerned that there may be a conventional explanation
> for the device, that it is not "overunity". But overunity is just a
> relative term, isn't it? I mean, coal could be looked at as overunity
> because *we* didn't put the energy into it, right? Depends on how big you
> draw the box.

Actually my concern is that there has been nearly no attention to the
elimination of any conventional effects before proceeding to testing the
investment waters.

How many responses to Bill's post have there been?  Is this at all
objective?
 
> If indeed the magnets lose potential over time, so what? Whether that is an
> issue or not depends on how much energy we can get out of them compared to
> how long it takes to wear them out and how much energy went into
> magnetizing them. *if* they are wearing out, and *if* we get lots of clean
> energy out of them, then they are very efficient, clean, compact energy
> storage batteries. That in itself would be valuable. Maybe not worth
> $billions, only millions :-)

Bingo Dan!  It does indeed depend on the ratio of how much energy we get
out and how much energy went into making the magnet.  How much energy is
being produced by Greg's device?

Do we know if the magnets are being depolarized at all?  Do we even know
how much energy goes into their production?  This question is actually
more important than closing the loop.  If you close the loop, and it
runs, great!  But if it runs only for a time, and delivers less energy
in that time than was used to make the magnets, you have just lost your
investment.  Isn't it really important to know this before investing?

As far as magnets being very efficient energy storage devices, I think
not. How can we assume the efficiency is high without knowing the ratio
of input to output energy?

Clearly this (high efficiency claim) is an assumption, unless I misses
some posting with lots of hard data along the line. 
 
> Closing the loop is important. It is the best can't-fool-you measure of
> input vs output energy when the difference is subtle. I'll have to see that
> before I invest money. But it's not the only important thing here, and
> Greg's right to want to develop other aspects of the idea further before
> needing to close the loop. He's not asking for investment, he's asking who
> *might* invest "if I can demonstrate a working unit". If he's getting close
> to a working model, it's reasonable to be testing the investment waters.

If the differance is subtle, how can we say the efficiency is high?

But closing the loop does seperate ideas from facts quite efficiently. 
It's a critical milestone for sure, but it does not tell us everything
we need to know.

> About the device posted by Jean-Louis Naudin from "Sciences et Vie": it is
> a related device, but it is using quite a different magnetic configuration.
> Also, its exit point is 10mm below its entry point; Greg's is quite an
> improvement in design and efficiency. Additionally, it doesn't seem like
> Greg is looking to patent the ramp itself. No conflict there, it seems.

Is an 'improvement' sufficient to warrent a seperate patent?  I've been
told that the answer is no, but I'm not a lawyer.  Exactly what is greg
seeking a patent for here if not the ramp?  Clearly the process at work
is very similar, why is there no conflict in your opinion?

If the device in Jean-Louis Naudin's post operates conventionally, how
do we know that Greg's does not also operate conventionally?  Or is the
"Sciences et Vie" device operating by some non-conventional process, in
which case I would think there is a very clear conflict here, one that
might well preclude a patent. 

If greg were issued a patent, what would prevent the originator of the
"Sciences et Vie" device from filing a really messy lawsuit?

But this is not the real issue in my opinion.  What I'm interested in is
the very basic question, is this effect conventional, or not?  I think
we are getting a bit too far downstream with this question unaddressed. 
I personally do not know the answer, but I think this must be THE most
important question on all of our minds.  

It's clearly far more important than working out the details of a
business plan or lining up potential investors at this point (in my
opinion, of course).

I really hope the thing works by some unconventional process, but the
testing data I've seen so far does not tell me that this is the case at
all.  The lack of discussion of possible conventional processes is a
very clear danger sign based on past history.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 17:03:45 1997
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Geoff Egel <egel@main.murray.net.au>
Subject: Re: TV program in France
In-Reply-To: <199705021101.NAA07552@imaginet.fr>
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At 01:01 PM 5/2/97 +0200, you wrote:
>Freenrgians
>
>This is to announce, specially formember of this list in France and=
 Belgium,
>the airing of our documentary about new energy and alternative science,
>saturday may 10th, 13 h 30, on the TV channel Canal Plus (in a weekly=
 series
>called L=92=9Cil du cyclone / Eye of the cyclone).
>
>The film is called =AB Ils vont sauver la planete ! =BB (They=92re going to=
 save
>the planet ! ). It features Martin Fleischmann, Jim Griggs, Frank Stenger &
>Frank Znidarsic, Hal Fox, Teruo Kawai, Reidar Finsrud, Stanley Meyer, James
>E. Bare, Gaston Naessens, Arthur C. Clarke and French researchers Jacques
>Benveniste, Joel Sternheimer, Guy Arnaud and Gilles Thuny.
>
>Thanks to every one who helped !
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Jean-Pierre Lentin
>lentin@imaginet.fr
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Pity there's not an English version and some commercial or the ABC could
air it in Australia

Geoff
http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 17:56:15 1997
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Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 10:24:05 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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HI All,

Thanks for all the feedback.  I vaule it all.

Here is my test setup and the results I get with my linear unit.


Test Setup:
===========

The test setup is composed of 4 sections, all joined end to end and made
as level as possible. The release is on the right side and the exit is
on the left.  The sections are composed of 12mm alum "U" channel upon
which a 12mm steel boll rolls from right to left.

     ......Exit......Black Box.......Entry.......Release

1) Release section:
 This is a 100mm section of alum 12mm alum "U" channel attached to the
entry track.  The release section is bent up at approx 5 deg.  A small
notch has been filed up the ramp as a index to assist the ball being
released every time at the same position.  The notch  position was
determined with the "Black Box" section removed and varying the release
point to get the ball to just roll to the end of the 1mtr entry track
without dropping over the end.  This I assumed gave me as close as zero
ball energy at the entry point of the "Black Box" as possible.

2) Entry section:
 This is a 1mtr long section of 12mm alum "U" channel as level as I can
make it.

3) Black Box Section:
 This unit contains magnets and more of the 12mm alum "U" channel.  The
entry and exit track are at the same level.  The ball is pulled up the
ramp by a graduated B field.

4) Exit section:
 This is a 1mtr long sectin of 12mm alum "U" channel as level as I can
make it.

All sections are level and at the same height.


Test Results:
=============

The steel ball is placed on the "calibrated" release notch and released.

It roll down the release ramp and onto the entry track.

As it rolls along the entry track, the ball starts to slow.

Then it gets to with-in 75-100mm from the end of the entry track or from
the start of the "Black Box" section. the ball starts rolling at a
constant speed and slightly accelerates as it crosses over into the
"Black Box" section.

It leaves the "Black Box" section showing some slight drag back with-in
the first 25-50mm and then happily rolls off the end of the 1 mtr exit
track.


Further Testing:
================

I have constructed a working three ramp unit to investigate the change
in "Black Box" input alterations due to the influence of the exit
field.  The testing here was to investigate the problems in attempting
to close the loop.  I could not get two units oriented at right angles
to work due to the complexs interactions of the exit and entry fields. 
My idea here was to use 4 units set a right angles to each other to form
a square and thus close the loop.  The three unit linear model does
work.


Conclusions on the Linear Unit:
===============================

A real energy gain is shown as well as the ability to move a mass.  The
energy gain seems to be around 20-30%.  Closing the loop with such a
model seems difficult as the frictional losses in returning the ball to
the enrty point would be large.


Rotary Unit:
============

My current work is centered on a rotary unit, quite different to the
above.


Long Term Intentions:
=====================

I do not intend to manuf a thing.  A license to use the technology will
be available to any one who wishes to use it at a VERY LOW COST.  My
current thinking is around $100 upfront and $1 / 1kw generation capacity
per unit on a decreasing sliding scale.  I believe if the technology is
available cheaply enough, its simpler and less costly in the long run to
license it than steal it.

As to getting rich, if my shareholders do, so will I.


References:
===========

US Patent 4,215,330 issued 29 July, 1980.  Check it out.  


Test Group:
===========

This patent was posted to the 9 members of my test group.  While is is
not my device, is is close and an understanding of the patent would be
of benefit.  To my knowledge, 4 members have constructed actual units. 
I included in the group several critics to help keep us all honest.

<billb@eskimo.com>,
<bshannon@tiac.net>,
<catware@worldonline.nl>,       *Constructed*
<dequickert@ucdavis.edu>,       *Constructed*
<epitaxy@localaccess.com>,      *Constructed*
<gwatson@microtronics.com.au>,  *Constructed*
<harti@harti.com>,              *Working on a unit*
<jnaudin509@aol.com>,
<little@eden.com>,
<mrandall@earthlink.net>,       *Constructed*
<puthoff@aol.com>

The group was formed to reduce list traffic and help to keep discussions
in control.  If you wish to jon the group and be involved in actual
construction and discussions please let me know.

I should point out that the guys at Earth Tech are willing to test a
"closed loop unit" unit at no charge.  I have accepted.

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
                                          61 18 833 461  Mobile

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 18:42:47 1997
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Hi All,

Here is the link to the Patent 4,215,330 :

Right click on each image/page to save it to disk and then use any gif
viewer to view or print it.

This is not my device, but is close enough for you to build if you want
to have a go and experiment.  It does work.

http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/4215330

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
                                          61 18 833 461  Mobile

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unsubscribe me from the list.At 05:56 PM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>freenrg-digest Digest				Volume 97 : Issue 156
>
>Today's Topics:
>	 Re: Researches of Burr
>	 energy travel velocity
>	 Wacky patents!
>	 Re: Expressions of Interest
>	 Re: Magnetic Forces
>	 FYI
>	 TV program in France
>	 Re: Expressions of Interest
>	 Re: Expressions of Interest
>	 Re: Expressions of Interest
>	 permanent? magnets
>	 RE: Expressions of Interest
>	 Simple OU Device effects
>	 Looking for meter
>	 Re: permanent? magnets
>	 Re: permanent? magnets
>	 Re: Expressions of Interest
>	 Re: TV program in France
>Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 15:08:58 -0700
>From: Jerry Decker <jdecker@keelynet.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Researches of Burr
>Message-ID: <3369147A.1432@keelynet.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Hi Thomas!
>
>Harold Saxton Burr, editor of a Yale Journal (can't remember on what),=20
>discovered what he called an 'electrodynamic field' which is similar to=20
>Rupert Sheldrakes 'morphogenetic field' and which appears to be a kind of=
=20
>dynamic and very complex electrical pattern possibly even an 'attenuating=
=20
>Meissner field' (it gets weaker with age).
>
>The best book is 'Blueprint for Destiny' written by a fellow named=20
>Russell, then there is another book that has 'Life' in the title, but=20
>can't recall it, have a copy somewhere around here, will look it up, they=
=20
>were VERY HARD TO FIND, but Burr has been a hero of mine since I was=20
>about 16....
>
>He did long term experiments with trees to monitor their electrical=20
>fields for many years (I remember something about 30 years for one tree)=20
>and developed a means of measuring ovulation in human females by=20
>inserting a couple of fingers into a saltwater mixture...the books have=20
>details on his many experiments....
>
>Russell postulated two kinds of fields in his book 'Blueprint', an L=20
>field (for Life) that actually produced the field (aura) which the body=20
>recorded in the form of tissue and the M field (doesn't sound right) but=20
>it had to do with the mind being the creator and sustainer of the L=20
>field.
>
>The idea was that by sustained thought you could alter the L field to=20
>produce healing or mutation as desired.....and there are dozens of=20
>reports, if not hundreds that verify tissue can experience 'spontaneuos=20
>mutation' or in response to stimuli or environment, not requiring=20
>thousands of years....
>
>Anyway, I'll look for my books and get you the titles...you can also try=20
>      http://www.amazon.com    for thousands of book titles or
>you can try for an interlibrary loan.....I could stay home all the time=20
>and read very rare books borrowed from libraries all over the=20
>US....seeya!
>--=20
>               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker@keelynet.com
>        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
>       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
>     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187
>Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 14:55:20 -0700
>From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
>To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
>Subject: energy travel velocity
>Message-ID: <01BC563F.B134B0C0@ristra.ucdavis.edu>
>
>Hi all, please forgive if this subject has been covered, but...
>
>Fred Epps wrote:
>
>>   I think the electrostatic potential is simultaneous. At the instant
>>the switch is closed (in a circuit with a switch, a load, and a
>>resistor) the potential gradient is established over the circuit and the
>>current begins to flow. Several experiments have shown that energy can
>>travel through a wire at many times c.
>
>!!!
>
>So this would mean that information can be / is transmitted FTL? I thought=
=20
>that speed of propagation was theoretically one of the limiting factors in=
=20
>designing faster computer circuits?
>
>>   The current doesn't need to believe there is a return path, it knows
>>there is one.
>>                              Fred
>
>Well, on a really long scale, how does it know? can we fool it? :-)
>
>
>Dan
>
>
>
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>4```!``````````,`#33]-P``3TW:
>`
>end
>Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 01:33:27 -0700
>From: Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
>To: Free Energy List <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
>Subject: Wacky patents!
>Message-ID: <33685557.B6E@triode.net.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Here is an amusing link for all patent-heads
>
>http://colitz.com/site/wackyf.htm
>---
>Maxwell
>
>Eccles:     "Hey! What are you doing here?!"
>Bluebottle: "Dont you talk to me that way my man.
>            Dont you know that I have 2 O-levels and a budgerigar?"
>Spike Milligan - Goon Show -
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 11:55:28 +0930
>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest
>Message-ID: <33695098.684E@microtronics.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>>=20
>> At 8:19 PM 5/1/97, Greg Watson wrote:
>> [snip]
>> >
>> >I want the technology to be available to all.  I never expected ANY
>> >mpney from the generation of power.
>> >
>> >The license fee will be based on that you wish to do.  IE any user who
>> >wishes to build a unit would pay a one time fee for use of the
>> >technology and a ongoing fee based on the size and number of generators
>> >they wish to build.
>> >
>> [snip]
>>=20
>> This is all premature isn't it?  Until the loop is closed and the
>> experiment independently replicated, there's nothing to sell reputably,=
 is
>> there?
>>=20
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> Horace Heffner
>
>Hi Horace,
>
>I agree, thats why I asked for expressions of interest and NOT MONEY.
>
>I hope to be able to generate enough interest to be able to take the
>device to the next stage using the talents and money which exist with-in
>these groups.
>
>My request for expressions of interest was to judge the amount and level
>of support available.
>
>I am not asking for your money Horace, only a expression of your
>interest.
>
>If I can't deliver, its my face which will wear the egg.
>
>--=20
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>                                          61 18 833 461  Mobile
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 12:16:34 +0930
>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Magnetic Forces
>Message-ID: <3369558A.C9@microtronics.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Gene Batten wrote:
>>=20
>> Greg,
>>=20
>> Very interesting data. Thanks for sharing it. What are the units on
>> the attached graph? When I detached the graph, there were no units
>> listed on the graph. It would be helpful to know if you are using
>> inches, centemeters, pounds, etc. My guess is that you are using
>> metric units.
>
>Magnets / ferrite was 10cm thick, 15cm wide and 100cm long.
>
>The x axis (spacing) is in Cms.
>
>The y axis (force) is in Newtons
>
>> Could you also share how you obtained this data? I have no reason
>> to doubt it, I just wonder about the relative accuracy.
>
>The data was from Quick Field simulations and backed up by actual
>(simple) testing.
>
>> I have always suspected that the attraction and repulsive forces of
>> magnets were not equal, but I never tried to measure it.
>
>The reduction in opposing forces is due to the magnets being forced down
>their B/H curves and therefore reducing their face generated field
>strength.
>
>The attractive forces drive the magnets up their B/H curves and increase
>their face generated field strengths.
>
>What really suprised me was the opposing plot tracks the ferromagnetic
>plot.
>
>I suspect the use of stiffer magnetic material would generate plots
>closer together.
>
>> Your data indicates a rather significant difference between attraction
>> and repulsion forces (if I understand your chart correctly).  So, if
>> this information really is what it appears to be, how can we exploit
>> this force difference to do work?
>>=20
>> Maybe you are already doing this?
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> Gene Batten
>
>--=20
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>                                          61 18 833 461  Mobile
>Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 22:11:39 -0600
>From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: FYI
>Message-Id: <v02130502af8f19ac7eb5@[153.34.203.198]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"
>
>List Members:  I relay the following important message to you from Dr,
>Woolman.  Please read, note the new URL and lets take this campaign to the
>next level.  This push will hopefully accomplish the amending of the=
 current
>Senate patent bill to come in line with the recently passed House version.
>Let's let all the Senate get the message loud and clear.
>
>Tucson Kid
>pmurray@azstarnet.com
>Blazing Barrels Posts
>
>Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 18:09:30 +0100
>From: "R. Daniel Woolman" <woolman@in-search-of.com>
>Reply-To: woolman@in-search-of.com
>Organization: In Search Of. . .
>To: InventorsD@aol.com
>Subject: On S 507 - ISO E-mail campaign
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Hello everyone,
>
>This will be my last post to you concerning Senate Bill S 507.
>
>We have sent a total of 300 individual letters to every member of the
>Senate Judiciary in the last two days. The total number of letters thus
>far mailed on this effort now stands at 5,400.
>
>It is now time to include the full senate in our efforts. I have
>rewritten the initial letter sent to the Judiciary. It appears that
>either John Ashcroft, or Fred Thompson, or perhaps even both may
>consider an amendment to S 507. This is only my opinion and can not be
>substantiated at this time.
>
>The new ISO E-mail page for the Judiciary is:
>
>http://www.in-search-of.com/frames/government/campaign/s507.shtml
>
>Additionally, I have placed a letter written for the entire US Senate
>concerning our opposition at:
>
>http://www.in-search-of.com/frames/government/campaign/s507_senate.shtml
>
>So, it is now time to come back to ISO and mail to the US Senate
>Judiciary and the full US Senate!
>
>I apologize to those of you who did not want to receive this mail.
>
>Most respectfully,
>
>R. Daniel Woolman, Ph.D.
>--
>http://www.in-search-of.com/directory.shtml
>Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:01:46 +0200 (METDST)
>From: Jean-Pierre Lentin <lentin@imaginet.fr>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: TV program in France
>Message-Id: <199705021101.NAA07552@imaginet.fr>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"

>
>Freenrgians
>
>This is to announce, specially formember of this list in France and=
 Belgium,
>the airing of our documentary about new energy and alternative science,
>saturday may 10th, 13 h 30, on the TV channel Canal Plus (in a weekly=
 series
>called L=92=9Cil du cyclone / Eye of the cyclone).
>
>The film is called =AB Ils vont sauver la planete ! =BB (They=92re going to=
 save
>the planet ! ). It features Martin Fleischmann, Jim Griggs, Frank Stenger &
>Frank Znidarsic, Hal Fox, Teruo Kawai, Reidar Finsrud, Stanley Meyer, James
>E. Bare, Gaston Naessens, Arthur C. Clarke and French researchers Jacques
>Benveniste, Joel Sternheimer, Guy Arnaud and Gilles Thuny.
>
>Thanks to every one who helped !
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Jean-Pierre Lentin
>lentin@imaginet.fr
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 21:12:14 +0930
>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest
>Message-ID: <3369D316.5665@microtronics.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Rick Monteverde wrote:
>>=20
>> Greg -
>>=20
>>    >  My request for expressions of interest was
>>    >  to judge the amount and level of support
>>    >  available.
>>=20
>> Greg, I doubt the level of interest is any higher than you see now it
>> because it's already pressed pretty hard up against the ceiling! This is
>> the reason many people have joined these lists in the first place, to see
>> if such things are possible and to find out how they might be=
 constructed,
>> tested, and ultimately exploited to provide cheap/"free" energy to the
>> world. It's why I'm here. I think we're *all* very interested. But what=
 can
>> we do? Apparently as of this moment you still have patent and secrecy
>> considerations on the technology, and perhaps you are not completely sure
>> that you've got a working model on your hands which unequivocally shows=
 an
>> overunity effect. We ordinary list denizens really can't do anything=
 about
>> it until you've got things to the point where you are completely
>> comfortable and confident of *demonstrable & duplicable* OU and of=
 showing
>> it publically at least, if not putting various people here under NDA and
>> sending working models or plans.
>>=20
>> What's *your* plan with this? What's *your* schedule? I've been on the=
 edge
>> of my seat here for weeks now waiting to see the triumphant messages=
 about
>> how you've closed the loop and it keeps going like that damn pink rabbit.
>>=20
>> You've got all the interest and attention you need here, IMO. You've got
>> labs like EarthTech and people like Gene/Jed/Chris and other qualified
>> scientists and engineers who I'm sure would love to measure and verify=
 what
>> you've got. The rest of us (like me) can be your cheering section. When
>> you're ready, I'm sure the folks on this list will be too.
>>=20
>> - Rick Monteverde
>> Honolulu, HI
>
>Hi Rick,
>
>Thanks for the genuine comments. =20
>
>Looks like I have been too close to this thing.  Maybe I can't see the
>woods for the trees.
>
>I have explained the results I am getting with my linear model.  I ask
>for feedback as to where and / or how I may be making a mistake.  I ask
>for feedback as to how I can improve my test setup.  But the only
>feedback I get is "CLOSE THE LOOP". =20
>
>I can show a real energy gain and I ask for comment on where the energy
>may be coming from.  What do I get, "CLOSE THE LOOP".
>
>I express concern for the cost of using this energy and ask for
>comment.  "CLOSE THE LOOP" comes back.
>
>When I do close the loop, with all respect, don't need the unit to be
>tested to tell me its working.  Any pair of Mark 1 human eyes will do
>the job very well.
>
>I asked for feedback to involve ALL of you in this.  I expected more
>than just a group of "CLOSE THE LOOP" lurkers.  Thats why I asked for
>expressions of interest.  I am trying to sort the interest.
>
>Maybe I am too close and have got this reply all wrong.  I don't want to
>offend anyone.  If I do, I apologize in advance.  You probably don't
>realize how much I value the feedback from this group (both positive and
>negative).  But I get so little.
>
>I set up a special interest group to discuss and duplicate elements of
>the device my patent attorney will allow me to disclose without choping
>my keyboard cable.  But even with them I can only go so far, although
>some are getting warm.
>
>I have done a business plan and cash flow for the first 12 months and
>will be looking at raising around US $750,000.  I still hope to be able
>to raise that much from here.  I want to keep this thing as public as
>possible.  I would rather have 500 investors at $1,500 each than 1 at
>$750,000.  Large investors are hard to work with as they know the golden
>rule, IE.... "He Who Has The Gold, Makes The Rules".
>
>
>Remember:
>
>  NONE OF US IS AS SMART AS ALL OF US.
>
>
>--=20
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>                                          61 18 833 461  Mobile
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 10:01:36 -0700
>From: Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
>To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>CC: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest
>Message-ID: <336A1DF0.3B71@tiac.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Greg Watson wrote:
>=20
>> I have explained the results I am getting with my linear model.  I ask
>> for feedback as to where and / or how I may be making a mistake.  I ask
>> for feedback as to how I can improve my test setup.  But the only
>> feedback I get is "CLOSE THE LOOP".
>
>Not quite correct Greg!
>=20
>> I can show a real energy gain and I ask for comment on where the energy
>> may be coming from.  What do I get, "CLOSE THE LOOP".
>
>What about Bill's posting that magnets, like springs, can indeed do
>work, and that
>there may be a conservatitive explaination for the device?
>
>Clearly this was not a call to close the loop, but to eliminate any
>possible conventional explainations.
>
>I don't think this has been done yet.
>=20
>> I express concern for the cost of using this energy and ask for
>> comment.  "CLOSE THE LOOP" comes back.
>>
>> When I do close the loop, with all respect, don't need the unit to be
>> tested to tell me its working.  Any pair of Mark 1 human eyes will do
>> the job very well.
>
>Can you see that the magnets have not lost any potential, however small
>this loss might be?  Mark 1 human eyes are not sufficient, their track
>record in evaluating over unity systems is dismal at best.
>=20
>> I asked for feedback to involve ALL of you in this.  I expected more
>> than just a group of "CLOSE THE LOOP" lurkers.  Thats why I asked for
>> expressions of interest.  I am trying to sort the interest.
>
>It seems that the reaction to feedback is very selective on nearly
>everyones part.
>
>> Maybe I am too close and have got this reply all wrong.  I don't want to
>> offend anyone.  If I do, I apologize in advance.  You probably don't
>> realize how much I value the feedback from this group (both positive and
>> negative).  But I get so little.
>
>Ok, please lets be really sure that we have eliminated any possible
>conventional explaination before we assume (and that is the correct word
>in this case) that we have an over unity effect.
>
>Mark 1 eyeballs are known not to have a reasonable success rate at
>evaluating energy input and output ratios.  Look at the magnetic gate
>thread as an example of how this level of testing simply fails to show
>us whats really going on in magnetic systems.
>
>> I set up a special interest group to discuss and duplicate elements of
>> the device my patent attorney will allow me to disclose without choping
>> my keyboard cable.  But even with them I can only go so far, although
>> some are getting warm.
>
>The magnetic experiment posted by Jean looks a lot like this ramp
>device, and seems to predate it as well.  Does this present any patent
>issues?  Is the device in Jean's posting conventional (conservative),
>and/or does it operate in the same manner as your device?
>
>> I have done a business plan and cash flow for the first 12 months and
>> will be looking at raising around US $750,000.  I still hope to be able
>> to raise that much from here.  I want to keep this thing as public as
>> possible.  I would rather have 500 investors at $1,500 each than 1 at
>> $750,000.  Large investors are hard to work with as they know the golden
>> rule, IE.... "He Who Has The Gold, Makes The Rules".
>
>Personally, I think you have your cart way out in front of your horse
>here Greg.
>
>We must consider and eliminate any possible conventional explainations.=20
>Bill posted quite some time ago that he may have a conventional
>explaination, and I saw no responses to his posting at all.
>
>It seems that the possibility of a conventional explaination has been
>dismissed without any real discussion, mush less actual testing.  This
>is a very big danger sign to me.
>
>Before contacting a lawyer and investigating the level of commercial
>interest, you might have made a simple (boiler plate NDA) agreement with
>another researcher, and had them duplicate the device.  It seems that
>the only efforts at reproduction have not been exact duplications of the
>original.
>
>I'm also not at all sure how much actual testing of the apparent energy
>gain has been done.  This should be an important first step in my
>opinion.  How do you know that your not using stored potential from the
>magnets if we don't have good measurments of the apparent energy gain?
>
>I should think that all these questions and many more would need to be
>addressed before testing the potential investment waters.
>
>If the measurments were made with the level of detail needed to put a
>business plan together for a three-quarters of a million dollars, we
>would know a lot more about this device than we do today.  A great many
>people want to beleive in ANY over unity system that they do not look at
>possible conventional explainations before assuming that their effect is
>unconventional.
>
>History shows us that this is a very dangerous path. =20
>
>I would like to see an expression of interest (on your part) in
>protecting your potential investors from suffering a loss before you
>test the investment waters.  Eliminate any and all possible conventional
>explainations, have the device exactly duplicated by another researcher
>(under a solid NDA of course!) and get detailed measurments, not Mark 1
>eyeball guesstimates and assumptions.
>
>Please understand the long history of claimed free energy devices. Note
>that in the vast majority of cases, exact reproductions, proper
>(detailed)  measurments were not made, and conventional effects and
>explainations were not first eliminated before the assumption was made
>that something unconventional was at work.
>
>How many of these devices ever passed muster in the long run?  (None!)
>Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:28:27 -0400 (EDT)
>From: woods@most.weird.com (Greg A. Woods)
>To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest
>Message-Id: <m0wNJJz-00076xC@most.weird.com>
>
>[ On Fri, May 2, 1997 at 21:12:14 (+0930), Greg Watson wrote: ]
>> Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest
>>
>> I express concern for the cost of using this energy and ask for
>> comment.  "CLOSE THE LOOP" comes back.
>
>I assure you I to would rather know the source of the energy than to
>just explit it unknowingly!
>
>BTW, in recent recreational reading on an entirely different subject
>I've found reference to papers by Ralph E. Juergens who writes (in these
>instances) about the effect of the Sun's electrical field on the
>rotation of the Earth.  He claims there have been measurements made by
>Andre Danjon in 1960 and by Plagmann and Gribbin in 1972 that show the
>rotation of the Earth has been temporarily slowed down (by microseconds)
>during the effect of large solar flares. [in a journal called Kronos,
>Volume II, 2, pp. 15-16 and 3, pp. 12-15]
>
>Perhaps what you're observing is a similar or related effect.  I've no
>idea what this might imply, but if these guys are right, and your effect
>is related, the consequences could be quite devastating, if only on a
>longer term.
>
>(NOTE:  I know little or nothing of the journal Kronos, though I
>understand it is a peer review publication.  Be skeptical.  I've only
>read small quotations from these papers.)
>
>--=20
>							Greg A. Woods
>
>+1 416 443-1734			VE3TCP			robohack!woods
>Planix, Inc. <woods@planix.com>; Secrets of the Weird <woods@weird.com>
>Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 09:34:22 -0700
>From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
>To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
>Subject: permanent? magnets
>Message-ID: <01BC56DC.052BED50@ristra.ucdavis.edu>
>
>A while back someone asked if there have been any studies on permanent=20
>magnets that have been in use for a long time, to see what changes may have=
=20
>occurred. I don't recall seeing any response to that. PM electric motors=20
>and the like have been around for a long time now, so it seems we should=20
>have some information about long-term effects. Does anyone know of such=20
>information?
>
>Dan
>Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:12:16 -0700
>From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
>To: "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
>Subject: RE: Expressions of Interest
>Message-ID: <01BC56E1.5063CF40@ristra.ucdavis.edu>
>
>Greg, Bob, and all:
>
>Bob and others seem concerned that there may be a conventional explanation=
=20
>for the device, that it is not "overunity". But overunity is just a=20
>relative term, isn't it? I mean, coal could be looked at as overunity=20
>because *we* didn't put the energy into it, right? Depends on how big you=
=20
>draw the box.
>
>If indeed the magnets lose potential over time, so what? Whether that is an=
=20
>issue or not depends on how much energy we can get out of them compared to=
=20
>how long it takes to wear them out and how much energy went into=20
>magnetizing them. *if* they are wearing out, and *if* we get lots of clean=
=20
>energy out of them, then they are very efficient, clean, compact energy=20
>storage batteries. That in itself would be valuable. Maybe not worth=20
>$billions, only millions :-)
>
>Closing the loop is important. It is the best can't-fool-you measure of=20
>input vs output energy when the difference is subtle. I'll have to see that=
=20
>before I invest money. But it's not the only important thing here, and=20
>Greg's right to want to develop other aspects of the idea further before=20
>needing to close the loop. He's not asking for investment, he's asking who=
=20
>*might* invest "if I can demonstrate a working unit". If he's getting close=
=20
>to a working model, it's reasonable to be testing the investment waters.
>
>About the device posted by Jean-Louis Naudin from "Sciences et Vie": it is=
=20
>a related device, but it is using quite a different magnetic configuration.=
=20
>Also, its exit point is 10mm below its entry point; Greg's is quite an=20
>improvement in design and efficiency. Additionally, it doesn't seem like=20
>Greg is looking to patent the ramp itself. No conflict there, it seems.
>
>Dan
>Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:21:29 -0700
>From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
>To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>,
>        "freenrg-l@eskimo.com"
>	 <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
>Subject: Simple OU Device effects
>Message-ID: <01BC56E2.9A2C8DA0@ristra.ucdavis.edu>
>
>This started out as a preliminary stab at the effects of using Greg's=20
>magnetic ramp as an energy source. But it ends up skirting the issue, and=
=20
>becomes sort of a way of conventionally explaining what's going on, in real=
=20
>shallow terms :-).
>
>First, magnets have been doing work ever since we started using them. When=
=20
>you put a magnet up on the refrigerator, it does work as it pulls your hand=
=20
>with it toward the metal. You do an equivalent amount of work when you=20
>un-stick it later, but the magnet still did work. The magnet's work was=20
>balanced by your work.
>
>Gravity also does work, no? When you climb up a flight of stairs, you do=20
>lots of work to counter gravity. If you fall back down, gravity has done=20
>work. The system is balanced (even if you are not).
>
>In a permanent-magnet motor, the magnets are doing work. It is balanced by=
=20
>the work of the electromagnets, using electricity as their energy source.
>
>Permanent magnets are in wide use, and they are doing work. It's just that=
=20
>their work is usually balanced by energies that we provide.
>
>Greg's ramp is using one form of energy (gravitational) that we usually=20
>have to balance with our own energy, to offset another form of energy=20
>(magnetic) that we also usually have to balance with our own efforts. No=20
>big deal, right?
>
>Does anyone ever wonder whether we're depleting the Earth's gravitational=
=20
>energy when we fall down?
>
>In the same way, we've never stopped to wonder what the *efffects* of using=
=20
>magnets may be. Greg's asking a good question that maybe should be answered=
=20
>for our current, "conventional" widespread use of magnets.
>
>
>Dan
>Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 12:43:12 -0800
>From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Looking for meter
>Message-Id: <v01530502af9002184172@[199.237.131.248]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"
>
>I am trying to locate a reasonably priced meter to measure very low
>currents (in nA) and voltages (uV).  The best I've located so far is The
>TENMA  AC Millivolt Meter ($175 from MCM Electronics, cat #72-450).  It has
>the disadvantage of being AC voltage only and analog, but goes down to a
>0-300 uV range, and has amplified output for an oscilloscope.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner         =20
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 17:37:36 -0700
>From: Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: permanent? magnets
>Message-ID: <336A88D0.384E@tiac.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Dan Quickert wrote:
>>=20
>> A while back someone asked if there have been any studies on permanent
>> magnets that have been in use for a long time, to see what changes may=
 have
>> occurred. I don't recall seeing any response to that. PM electric motors
>> and the like have been around for a long time now, so it seems we should
>> have some information about long-term effects. Does anyone know of such
>> information?
>>=20
>> Dan
>
>Yep, they demagnetize in many situations.  This is due to several
>reasons such as heat, shock, and induced counter EMF effects.
>Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:53:07 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Keasy@aol.com
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: permanent? magnets
>Message-ID: <970502175302_-1031400530@emout09.mail.aol.com>
>
>I don't have any references, but I know the standard theory is, and my
>experience has been, so long as you do not introduce reverse fields large
>enough to actually start to demagnetize a magnet, a "good" magnet is not in
>any measurable way effected by use.  ie you can use it in reversible field
>configurations indefinitely without in any way "consuming" its energy. =
 Does
>anyone else have any other opinions?
>
>
>
>                                                                       =
 Keasy
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 18:09:31 -0700
>From: Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Expressions of Interest
>Message-ID: <336A904B.310A@tiac.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Dan Quickert wrote:
>
>> Greg, Bob, and all:
>>=20
>> Bob and others seem concerned that there may be a conventional=
 explanation
>> for the device, that it is not "overunity". But overunity is just a
>> relative term, isn't it? I mean, coal could be looked at as overunity
>> because *we* didn't put the energy into it, right? Depends on how big you
>> draw the box.
>
>Actually my concern is that there has been nearly no attention to the
>elimination of any conventional effects before proceeding to testing the
>investment waters.
>
>How many responses to Bill's post have there been?  Is this at all
>objective?
>=20
>> If indeed the magnets lose potential over time, so what? Whether that is=
 an
>> issue or not depends on how much energy we can get out of them compared=
 to
>> how long it takes to wear them out and how much energy went into
>> magnetizing them. *if* they are wearing out, and *if* we get lots of=
 clean
>> energy out of them, then they are very efficient, clean, compact energy
>> storage batteries. That in itself would be valuable. Maybe not worth
>> $billions, only millions :-)
>
>Bingo Dan!  It does indeed depend on the ratio of how much energy we get
>out and how much energy went into making the magnet.  How much energy is
>being produced by Greg's device?
>
>Do we know if the magnets are being depolarized at all?  Do we even know
>how much energy goes into their production?  This question is actually
>more important than closing the loop.  If you close the loop, and it
>runs, great!  But if it runs only for a time, and delivers less energy
>in that time than was used to make the magnets, you have just lost your
>investment.  Isn't it really important to know this before investing?
>
>As far as magnets being very efficient energy storage devices, I think
>not. How can we assume the efficiency is high without knowing the ratio
>of input to output energy?
>
>Clearly this (high efficiency claim) is an assumption, unless I misses
>some posting with lots of hard data along the line.=20
>=20
>> Closing the loop is important. It is the best can't-fool-you measure of
>> input vs output energy when the difference is subtle. I'll have to see=
 that
>> before I invest money. But it's not the only important thing here, and
>> Greg's right to want to develop other aspects of the idea further before
>> needing to close the loop. He's not asking for investment, he's asking=
 who
>> *might* invest "if I can demonstrate a working unit". If he's getting=
 close
>> to a working model, it's reasonable to be testing the investment waters.
>
>If the differance is subtle, how can we say the efficiency is high?
>
>But closing the loop does seperate ideas from facts quite efficiently.=20
>It's a critical milestone for sure, but it does not tell us everything
>we need to know.
>
>> About the device posted by Jean-Louis Naudin from "Sciences et Vie": it=
 is
>> a related device, but it is using quite a different magnetic=
 configuration.
>> Also, its exit point is 10mm below its entry point; Greg's is quite an
>> improvement in design and efficiency. Additionally, it doesn't seem like
>> Greg is looking to patent the ramp itself. No conflict there, it seems.
>
>Is an 'improvement' sufficient to warrent a seperate patent?  I've been
>told that the answer is no, but I'm not a lawyer.  Exactly what is greg
>seeking a patent for here if not the ramp?  Clearly the process at work
>is very similar, why is there no conflict in your opinion?
>
>If the device in Jean-Louis Naudin's post operates conventionally, how
>do we know that Greg's does not also operate conventionally?  Or is the
>"Sciences et Vie" device operating by some non-conventional process, in
>which case I would think there is a very clear conflict here, one that
>might well preclude a patent.=20
>
>If greg were issued a patent, what would prevent the originator of the
>"Sciences et Vie" device from filing a really messy lawsuit?
>
>But this is not the real issue in my opinion.  What I'm interested in is
>the very basic question, is this effect conventional, or not?  I think
>we are getting a bit too far downstream with this question unaddressed.=20
>I personally do not know the answer, but I think this must be THE most
>important question on all of our minds. =20
>
>It's clearly far more important than working out the details of a
>business plan or lining up potential investors at this point (in my
>opinion, of course).
>
>I really hope the thing works by some unconventional process, but the
>testing data I've seen so far does not tell me that this is the case at
>all.  The lack of discussion of possible conventional processes is a
>very clear danger sign based on past history.
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 09:31:50
>From: Geoff Egel <egel@main.murray.net.au>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: TV program in France
>Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19970503093150.2b673c64@main.murray.net.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"

>
>At 01:01 PM 5/2/97 +0200, you wrote:
>>Freenrgians
>>
>>This is to announce, specially formember of this list in France and=
 Belgium,
>>the airing of our documentary about new energy and alternative science,
>>saturday may 10th, 13 h 30, on the TV channel Canal Plus (in a weekly=
 series
>>called L=92=9Cil du cyclone / Eye of the cyclone).
>>
>>The film is called =AB Ils vont sauver la planete ! =BB (They=92re going=
 to save
>>the planet ! ). It features Martin Fleischmann, Jim Griggs, Frank Stenger=
 &
>>Frank Znidarsic, Hal Fox, Teruo Kawai, Reidar Finsrud, Stanley Meyer,=
 James
>>E. Bare, Gaston Naessens, Arthur C. Clarke and French researchers Jacques
>>Benveniste, Joel Sternheimer, Guy Arnaud and Gilles Thuny.
>>
>>Thanks to every one who helped !
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>>Jean-Pierre Lentin
>>lentin@imaginet.fr
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>>
>>Pity there's not an English version and some commercial or the ABC could
>air it in Australia
>
>Geoff
>http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 18:53:21 1997
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From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
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Yes, I agree magnets do work (just like springs)... I don't think anybody
with a little logic could disagree with this.


The work done by the magnet is simply the amount of force exercised by the
magnet over the distance which this force acts on something.

If [W] denotes work, [F] force, [m] mass, [a] acceleration, [v] velocity,
[d] distance traveled

...according to the basic formula [W=fd] meaning that if a magnets attract
ANY mass with a force of 1 Newton over the distance of 1 meter than the
work done by/against the magnet will equal to 1 Joule.

NOTE: that it doesn't matter if the attracted mass is 1 gram or 1 ton, the
amount of work the magnet does to attract it for over  1 meter is 1 Joule,
IN BOTH CASES !

You can express the work [W] done by the magnet in variety of other ways,
for example [W=mad] meaning a certain mass [m] accelerating at a certain
rate [a] for a certain distance [d] denotes certain work done by the magnet

... or [W=0.5mv^2] meaning that a magnet attracting certain mass [m] will
accelerate it to a certain velocity [v] and the expression [0.5mv^2] will
represent the amount of work [W] the magnet has done.


The issue whether any work has to be done AGAINST the magnet before any
work is done BY the magnet, is a completely different issue and very
dependent on how large the "box" is.




At 10:21 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>This started out as a preliminary stab at the effects of using Greg's 
>magnetic ramp as an energy source. But it ends up skirting the issue, and 
>becomes sort of a way of conventionally explaining what's going on, in real 
>shallow terms :-).
>
>First, magnets have been doing work ever since we started using them. When 
>you put a magnet up on the refrigerator, it does work as it pulls your hand 
>with it toward the metal. You do an equivalent amount of work when you 
>un-stick it later, but the magnet still did work. The magnet's work was 
>balanced by your work.
>
>Gravity also does work, no? When you climb up a flight of stairs, you do 
>lots of work to counter gravity. If you fall back down, gravity has done 
>work. The system is balanced (even if you are not).
>
>In a permanent-magnet motor, the magnets are doing work. It is balanced by 
>the work of the electromagnets, using electricity as their energy source.
>
>Permanent magnets are in wide use, and they are doing work. It's just that 
>their work is usually balanced by energies that we provide.
>
>Greg's ramp is using one form of energy (gravitational) that we usually 
>have to balance with our own energy, to offset another form of energy 
>(magnetic) that we also usually have to balance with our own efforts. No 
>big deal, right?
>
>Does anyone ever wonder whether we're depleting the Earth's gravitational 
>energy when we fall down?
>
>In the same way, we've never stopped to wonder what the *efffects* of using 
>magnets may be. Greg's asking a good question that maybe should be answered 
>for our current, "conventional" widespread use of magnets.
>
>
>Dan
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 19:06:32 1997
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Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 19:05:39 -0700
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
Subject: Re: Aaaa... don't slow down Earth !
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...and the sum of earth's angular momentum + the heat radiated into space
after we slowed down the earth a little with our infernal device, should be
equal to the earth's angular momentum before we starting to perform our
evil deed.

...I don't understand why any one of you would like to limit the
conservation of energy "generalization" ONLY to the mechanical angular
momentum.  Electrical energy or EM radiation like heat are as "good" forms
of energy as mechanical momentum.

If these energies could, they would sue you for unfair discrimination
(anthropomorphically speaking...)

P.S.

I remember reading somewhere that the earth's rotation rate is altered by
man-made water reservoirs.  (ballerina effect)

At 10:36 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Larry Wharton wrote:
>> No such invention can possibly work because of conservation of angular
>> momentum.  If the Earth's rotation slows down then the angular momentum
>> would decrease and that is not allowed. Only if angular momentum is
>> exchanged with some third body orbiting the Earth, like the Moon, such that
>> the total is constant could this idea work.  Through the years there have
>> been many schemes like this proposed and they all don't involve the Moon
>> and they all don't work.
>
>The moon has nothing to do with this particular invention.
>I will dig out some info about this device and post a 
>description. 
>
>For sure, angular momentum must be conserved in a closed system.
>But the earth-moon is not a closed system. In fact, given 
>an ample amount of time, the only truly closed system is
>the entire universe -- maybe not even that.   
>
>In this particular invention, angular momentum is transferred
>from the body of the earth, to an electro-magnetic field and/or  
>mechanical device which can do useful work on or near the earth's 
>surface, and then to waste heat at the surface and in the 
>atmosphere, and eventually radiated into space.
>
>Regards,
>Robert Stirniman
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 19:49:16 1997
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Subject: Re: Looking for meter
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Tucker Surplus gas some 6 digit desktop DMM with 10uA DC range.  I gave
seen other equipment in other catalogs but don't want to go and search
through stack of ne right now.  If you are still unsuccessful in finding
what you need, I'll browse.  Let me know

At 12:43 PM 5/2/97 -0800, you wrote:
>I am trying to locate a reasonably priced meter to measure very low
>currents (in nA) and voltages (uV).  The best I've located so far is The
>TENMA  AC Millivolt Meter ($175 from MCM Electronics, cat #72-450).  It has
>the disadvantage of being AC voltage only and analog, but goes down to a
>0-300 uV range, and has amplified output for an oscilloscope.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 19:54:21 1997
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Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 19:53:41 -0700
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
Subject: Re: permanent? magnets
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Yes, a permanent magnet not subjected to H fields above the B/H curve
demagnetization knee, or curie temperature or critical G shock, will last
forever.


At 05:53 PM 5/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I don't have any references, but I know the standard theory is, and my
>experience has been, so long as you do not introduce reverse fields large
>enough to actually start to demagnetize a magnet, a "good" magnet is not in
>any measurable way effected by use.  ie you can use it in reversible field
>configurations indefinitely without in any way "consuming" its energy.  Does
>anyone else have any other opinions?
>
>
>
>                                                                        Keasy
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 21:55:13 1997
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From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
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I disagree. If you look at Greg's description below, the inclined release
track is there ONLY to overcome the frictional losses of the entry track.
Greg clearly states "zero ball energy at the entry point...", also the
statement "... with the Black Box section removed..." is significant.

In Greg's device the ball does NOT suffer repulsion as it enters the
BlackBox, on the contrary, the ball is always attracted to the entry point.

The reason for the calibrated release track is simple.  If the release
track was not used and the ball was far away from the Black Box on the
level entry track only, the magnetic attraction would not be strong enough
to get the ball moving from such a distance.  Please remember that static
friction is greater than dynamic (moving) friction.  By using the inclined
release track Greg overcomes the starting friction and is able to measure
the work [W=Fd] over a large distance even if the distance [d] is is large
and [F] to small to get the ball rolling.

Please remember that if the Black Box was absent, the system of the release
and exit track would impart exactly ZERO kinetic energy to the ball at the
entry point (end of the entry track)

The dilution of the back attraction force over a large distance is what
worries me, and I dare to state that this is the only possible flaw in
Greg's analysis. (back-attraction force integrated over exit distance).

All of the other objections that people have been voicing (ie.
demagnetization of the magnets, input energy, eddy currents, etc..) are
silly, insignificant and could be all avoided if they took the time to
understand what Greg is writing.

Permanent magnets do not get demagnetized by performing work in the form of
ferrite attraction.  Demagnetization and magnet breakdown only happens if
you push them to hard (ie. excessive H field from a coil or another
stronger magnet, mechanical shock over critical G and thermal curie point).
Almost everything can be destroyed if you push it to hard, it doesn't mean
that it gets used up otherwise...





At 11:34 PM 5/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>One thing that bothers me is that Greg says the release track is ramped
>at about 5 deg - so this rig DOES have an input energy

At 10:24 AM 5/3/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote:
>>...with the "Black Box" section removed and varying the release
>>point to get the ball to just roll to the end of the 1mtr entry track
>>without dropping over the end.  This I assumed gave me as close as zero
>>ball energy at the entry point of the "Black Box" as possible.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 22:12:16 1997
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Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:11:40 -0800
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: pgb@padrak.com (Patrick Bailey)
Subject: The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been updated
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The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been updated at:

http://www.padrak.com/ine/

Most New Data Files are at:

http://www.padrak.com/ine/index.shtml#INE_RECENT

-------------     ------------------------------------------------------------
Date Included     Additions, Expansions, or Revisions
-------------     ------------------------------------------------------------

May   3, 1997     Added:  NEN TOC Vol. 4, No. 12, April 1997
                     So You Want To Be Involved In New Energy?
                     Calibration For Cold Fusion
                     Cold Fusion Bibliography Updated!
                     NASA Preparing For The Future
                     Gravitation Shielding Possible
                     The Nature Of The Aether
                     World Energy Report
                     Letter From Hal Puthoff (On SHARP Drive)
                  Added:  Proceedings of The 1996 International Conference On
                      New Ideas In Natural Sciences (Forward,
                      Conclusions, and Videotapes Available)
                  Updated:  Fabulous Facts File,
                     Websites, People, Organizations, etc.
                  Site Counter = 98,515

Dr. Patrick G. Bailey
President, Institute for New Energy
http://www.padrak.com/ine/


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 22:25:08 1997
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
Subject: Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
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I agree to the paragraph below.

Does Greg disagree ?

At 07:17 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>But in the case of an RLC in series
>with a constant current power supply the supply voltage will have to
>increase in order for the current to remain constant as the voltage
>across the inductor increases trying to reduce the current such that the
>energy remains the same in the inductor, thus energy in the inductor
>will increase as L increases because the current has NOT changed
>(assuming the P/S has done its job) - and this extra energy has come
>from the power supply.     

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 22:32:16 1997
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
Subject: Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
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I agree.  The voltage across the coil must increase and be positive to keep
the coil current constant.  That is what constant-current P/S does.  If
this P/S wasn't doing its job than the I would decrease as the L increased.

The more interesting question is whether the work [W=Fd] done by the
inductor when attracting the ferrite is done at the expense of stored
electrical energy [0.5LI^2]  ?????????????

No conservation of energy arguments allowed here ! :-)

At 07:17 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>The point of contention has to do with the SIGN of the voltage across
>the coil. The maths say it is positive. Greg Watson says it is negative
>- but he has not responded to that point.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 22:34:29 1997
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
Subject: Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
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Err.. I have a problem with: "...due to a positive voltage induced across
the L..."

Please rephrase and elaborate.
...

At 07:17 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>In the case of a constant-voltage P/S in series with the RLC there would
>be no voltage change across the P/S but the current in R would drop due
>to a positive voltage induced across the L.
>
>
>L                 R 
>////--0------<><><><>----------0 ``````````
>////  ^                          |        |
>////  | dL/dt                V   |  P/S   |
>////--0------------------------0 |.........
>
>---
>Maxwell
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 22:38:32 1997
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger@interlaced.net>
From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
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Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.

At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
>doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
>friction to a mimimum - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
>reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
>approach.  

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 23:00:54 1997
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Message-ID: <336AD443.2938@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 15:29:31 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Epitaxy wrote:
> 
> Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
> centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
> pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.

I agree, even though I haven't seen the referenced post.

> At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
> >doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
> >friction to a mimimum

Wouldn't work.

>> - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
> >reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
> >approach.

Hi Guys,

Seems I haven't received the post you refer to, anyhow the reason I use
a alum "U" channel for the ball to roll on is the requirement for the
ball to be in a balanced magnetic state if reference to the side to side
magnetic attraction forces exerted by the two side magnet assy.  The
alum channel allows for some unbalanced sideways magnetic forces to
exist.  To be pulled side ways off the track requires the ball to be
pulled up and over the side of the alum track.

I tried tubing but found this allows side ways slop and greatly reduces
the graduated mag ramp forces.  For max pull into the graduated field,
side to side magnetic influences must be reduced to less than 5%.

The alum channel didn't just happen. it was the best of several methods,
considering the job it has to do.

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  2 23:38:27 1997
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To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com
Cc: vortext-L@eskimo.com
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 23:31:33 PST
Subject: Gary Magnet Motor Pix and Info
Message-ID: <19970220.233139.11894.0.tv@juno.com>
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From: tv@juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
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I posted a Web page about the invention of Wesley Gary and his magnet
motor
including the missing diagrams that several of you wanted but I could not
attach
to email for some reason involving my mail server.

The URL of the "Gary Effect" page is:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4810

Tim

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 00:40:03 1997
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Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 01:37:30 -0700
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Hi Tim!

Excellent!  Thanks, will add the URL....
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker@keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 01:06:14 1997
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From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
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At 10:37 PM 5/2/97, Epitaxy wrote:
>Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
>centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
>pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.

A pendulum like so is useful (B are bearings, rest is rigid):

 ------B------------B-----
        \          /
         \        /
          \      /
           \    /
            \  /
             \/
             xx

>
>At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
>>doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
>>friction to a mimimum - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
>>reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
>>approach.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 01:20:33 1997
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Message-ID: <336AF513.24C9@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 17:49:31 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> At 10:37 PM 5/2/97, Epitaxy wrote:
> >Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
> >centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
> >pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.
> 
> A pendulum like so is useful (B are bearings, rest is rigid):
> 
>  ------B------------B-----
>         \          /
>          \        /
>           \      /
>            \    /
>             \  /
>              \/
>              xx
> 
> >
> >At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >>
> >>OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
> >>doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
> >>friction to a mimimum - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
> >>reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
> >>approach.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

Hi Guys,

Nice pendulum idea Horace.  Sorry, but I can't use it.  Will file it for
future reference.

Check out the patent below to get a idea of what is happening in the
"Black Box" :

http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/4215330

Just click on the link, it will load the first page of the patent.

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 06:41:31 1997
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From: JohnnyFG@algonet.se (Johnny Feelgood)
Subject: Strange pattern on a glass-window
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I have updated my WEB-pages with some pictures showing strange
pattern on a glass-window that appears when they are misty...
Kind of reminds me about the David Hammel story.
exit --- I vote for a flat society - like internet!
mailto:JohnnyFG@algonet.se
http://www.algonet.se/~johnnyfg/index.htm

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 08:32:30 1997
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From: Keasy@aol.com
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:30:43 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970503113042_-1031323492@emout07.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Aaaa... don't slow down Earth !
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Regarding this "don't slow down the earth!" issue everyone knows the rotation
rate of the earth (earth-moon system, actually) is constantly slowing down
because of tidal effects  --- a very small change, however.  An interesting
calculation shows what will eventually happen.  Results are posted at
http://members.aol.com/Keasy  and follow the earth/moon link.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 11:04:19 1997
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guys I've misplaced my letter that explains how to get off the list....
I really have enjoyed the list, but have to much school work to keep
up...maybe I'll get back on in the summer though.
If someone could just send an e-mail to me and let me know how to unsubscribe
from the list I'd appreciate it.

Doug

KngDoug@aol.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 11:11:28 1997
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From: "WESLY" <crosiar@goldrush.com>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: coler document
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:36:05 -0700
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TO ALL: Can anyone tell me where I can get the original HANS COLER DOCUMENT
in GERMAN?
THANKS WES

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 11:27:19 1997
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From: Keasy@aol.com
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 14:26:32 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970503142631_-1299795460@emout07.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Simple OU Device
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To all,
     This is in response to Greg's posting of his set up and testing with his
linear unit.
    Several questions/comments/suggestions:
     1.  How is it determined that the exit section is the same level as the
entry section?  This is of course critical.
     2.  If the magnets in the "black box" are in a configuration such that
the magnetic circuit can be closed to minimize effects outside the "black
box" volume that might be useful to consider.
     3.  What happens if you add a release ramp (properly set up as in #1) on
the left of the exit ramp and did the experiment WITH THE BLACK BOX REVERSED,
from left to right?  If you do this and get the same results as from right to
left (without touching anything else) but turning the "black box" around,
then things are much more interesting.  If, in addition, you measure the
fields at the entry point and end of exit ramp and they are on the same order
(in any direction) as the earth's magnetic field, then it does become
difficult to understand why it is not OU.
     There are undoubtedly other useful approaches to understanding this OU
device better but these come to mind.

                                               Ken             Keasy@aol.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 12:01:20 1997
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From: Bushi@multinet.net.il (Lev Robert)
Subject: Free Energy receiver
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Hi All
Why should you work so hard in order to obtain free energy when there are
devices like the Radiant Energy. I read about it some time ago in the Tesla
page. There is a patent on this too from 1901 "Utilization of Radiant
Energy. Since the group is now fairly mature in coil design and since this
kind of energy generation has no moving parts perhaps the has arived to give
it a try. 
Robert
BUSHILEV

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 12:23:35 1997
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From: Rodney Davies <rgd872@anu.edu.au>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Free Energy receiver
In-Reply-To: <B0000003930@192.115.50.1>
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Hi Robert,

On Sat, 3 May 1997, Lev Robert wrote:

> Hi All
> Why should you work so hard in order to obtain free energy when there are
> devices like the Radiant Energy. I read about it some time ago in the Tesla
> page. There is a patent on this too from 1901 "Utilization of Radiant
> Energy. Since the group is now fairly mature in coil design and since this
> kind of energy generation has no moving parts perhaps the has arived to give
> it a try. 
> Robert
> BUSHILEV

Interesting you should mention that...

A couple of years ago I did a few experiments of several aparatii made
from the same patent (patent #685,957, 1901) with pleasing results.

Although they were made from "junk" simply chucked together, I was able to
obtain a steady current.

I've seen later schematic diagram variations on the patent to show that
instead of having a load in parallel with the capacitor, try having a
spark-gap...however, I have not tried this configuration as yet...

The only thing that I'd really like to know is some discrete farad values
for the capacitor....I've tried from as low as pico-farads to 10,000uF...
Still, the only thing I noticed that changed with the farad change was
current...voltage seemed to stay fairly constant.

The only way I managed to change voltage was by the size of the receiving
panel, its elevation and N,S,E,W orientation...

The highest values I managed to obtain one time was 6.4 volts @ 460mA DC
constant for 0.5 hours...

However, without knowing some discrete values, ie panel size, height, etc
and capacitor values, it made the experiments too open for many
variables...but I'm hoping to work something out one day soon... :-)

An idea I have is not to have the receiving panel in a stationary
position, but infact rotating in some particular direction...
Hopefully to obtain 'more' free electrons...

Anyway, I'd like to hear from you (and of course others) who may have used
this patent design for various experiments and their results...


Catchya later!
Rod

"Electric power is everywhere present in unlimited quantities and can
drive the world's machinery without the need of coal, oil gas, or any
other fuels."
  -- Nikola Tesla


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 14:08:03 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Free Energy receiver

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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Hi All
Why should you work so hard in order to obtain free energy when there are
devices like the Radiant Energy. I read about it some time ago in the Tesla
page. There is a patent on this too from 1901 "Utilization of Radiant
Energy. Since the group is now fairly mature in coil design and since this
kind of energy generation has no moving parts perhaps the has arived to give
it a try. 
Robert
BUSHILEV


================================== End Part 2 ==================================

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 14:08:30 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: Gary Magnet Motor Pix and Info

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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Hi Tim!

Excellent!  Thanks, will add the URL....
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker@keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187


================================== End Part 2 ==================================

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 14:15:46 1997
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 14:06:07 PST
Subject: Re: coler document
Message-ID: <19970221.140924.9558.0.tv@juno.com>
References: <199705031807.LAA09874@claim.goldrush.com>
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From: tv@juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
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The Hans Coler document was never written in German it was a British
intelligence report, part of Project Paper Clip.  Some of the document
that it quotes however were originally in German and were translated by
British Intellignence.  You could inquire with the British Government
archives whatever it is called.

Tim

On Sat, 3 May 1997 11:36:05 -0700 "WESLY" <crosiar@goldrush.com> writes:
>TO ALL: Can anyone tell me where I can get the original HANS COLER 
>DOCUMENT
>in GERMAN?
>THANKS WES
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 15:04:03 1997
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To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
From: harti@bbtt.de (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: This is what we are building !
Cc: newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Hi to all,

cause I am pretty busy with other things I did not have much time
to post recently on the free-energy lists.

But I wanted to keep you all updated, what we are currently building:

It is a flux switch unit. Today we ordered the plastic revolver
chamber to hold the iron core material. Have a look at this picture.

It was drawn by Dieter Bauer and he is the one, who pushes it foward.
Here is the URL for the picture:

http://www.overunity.de/ecklin/fig15.gif

It should be a 3 dimensional side view...

I hope you can imagine how it works...

We hope, that in about 1 month we can have the first measurement results...


Please also check out:

http://www.overunity.de/ecklin/ecklin3.htm

Best regards, Stefan.

--
Hartmann Multimedia Service
Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
http://www.harti.com    Webmaster of:
www.detours.com    www.overunity.com   www.berlin-city.com
www.nylon-fetish.com 
email: harti@harti.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 15:17:46 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: Looking for meter

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Tucker Surplus gas some 6 digit desktop DMM with 10uA DC range.  I gave
seen other equipment in other catalogs but don't want to go and search
through stack of ne right now.  If you are still unsuccessful in finding
what you need, I'll browse.  Let me know

At 12:43 PM 5/2/97 -0800, you wrote:
>I am trying to locate a reasonably priced meter to measure very low
>currents (in nA) and voltages (uV).  The best I've located so far is The
>TENMA  AC Millivolt Meter ($175 from MCM Electronics, cat #72-450).  It has
>the disadvantage of being AC voltage only and analog, but goes down to a
>0-300 uV range, and has amplified output for an oscilloscope.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>
>
>


================================== End Part 2 ==================================

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 16:29:29 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
coler document

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TO ALL: Can anyone tell me where I can get the original HANS COLER DOCUMENT
in GERMAN?
THANKS WES


================================== End Part 2 ==================================

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 16:50:51 1997
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>The Hans Coler document was never written in German it was a British
>intelligence report, part of Project Paper Clip.  Some of the document
>that it quotes however were originally in German and were translated by
>British Intellignence.  You could inquire with the British Government
>archives whatever it is called.

I have a copy of the Hans Coler report from the British Imperial War
museum in London. Its on my WEB-pages found thru my signature-file below.
exit --- I vote for a flat society - like internet!
mailto:JohnnyFG@algonet.se
http://www.algonet.se/~johnnyfg/index.htm

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 17:05:25 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Strange pattern on a glass-window

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I have updated my WEB-pages with some pictures showing strange
pattern on a glass-window that appears when they are misty...
Kind of reminds me about the David Hammel story.
exit --- I vote for a flat society - like internet!
mailto:JohnnyFG@algonet.se
http://www.algonet.se/~johnnyfg/index.htm


================================== End Part 2 ==================================

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 17:19:04 1997
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Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 09:48:14
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Geoff Egel <egel@main.murray.net.au>
Subject: Re: Free Energy receiver
In-Reply-To: <B0000003930@192.115.50.1>
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At 09:55 PM 5/3/97 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi All
>Why should you work so hard in order to obtain free energy when there are
>devices like the Radiant Energy. I read about it some time ago in the Tesla
>page. There is a patent on this too from 1901 "Utilization of Radiant
>Energy. Since the group is now fairly mature in coil design and since this
>kind of energy generation has no moving parts perhaps the has arived to give
>it a try. 
>Robert
>BUSHILEV
>
>
>Correct me if I am wrong

But I believe Tesla never actually constructed this device  but only
imagined it.
Note that this is not problem most of his inventions he conceived this way
and then had them constructed by his engineers and he claimed they always
worked.

Geoff Egel
http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 17:35:00 1997
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Message-ID: <336BD903.1294@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 10:02:03 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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Keasy@aol.com wrote:
> 
> To all,
>      This is in response to Greg's posting of his set up and testing with his
> linear unit.
>     Several questions/comments/suggestions:
>      1.  How is it determined that the exit section is the same level as the
> entry section?  This is of course critical.

By sighting along the "U" channels.  Its not really critical.

>      2.  If the magnets in the "black box" are in a configuration such that
> the magnetic circuit can be closed to minimize effects outside the "black
> box" volume that might be useful to consider.

Very difficult.

>      3.  What happens if you add a release ramp (properly set up as in #1) on
> the left of the exit ramp and did the experiment WITH THE BLACK BOX REVERSED,
> from left to right?  If you do this and get the same results as from right to
> left (without touching anything else) but turning the "black box" around,
> then things are much more interesting.  

Hadn't thought of that.  I have however taken it appart and put it
together many times in many different ways.  Still works.

> If, in addition, you measure the
> fields at the entry point and end of exit ramp and they are on the same order
> (in any direction) as the earth's magnetic field, then it does become
> difficult to understand why it is not OU.

There are no real entry and exit points.

> There are undoubtedly other useful approaches to understanding this OU
> device better but these come to mind.
> 
>                                                Ken             Keasy@aol.com

Hi Ken,

Thanks for the input.

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 18:27:39 1997
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Message-ID: <336BE3CD.1503@bciu.k12.pa.us>
Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 21:18:10 -0400
From: "O'Connor" <poconnor@bciu.k12.pa.us>
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Subject: LIGHTNING
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I'm just wondering if anyone else out there is wondering why lightning
is not being harnessed for power usage.

I am positively sure that we have enough technology to capture/harness
the energy...but we aren't using it in our homes ect yet...

-Shannon 

========================                   
= "Eschew Obfuscation" =
========================

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 18:28:23 1997
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Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 21:17:54 -0400
From: "O'Connor" <poconnor@bciu.k12.pa.us>
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Subject: Positive Nrg
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Does anyone have any opinions on telekenisis? Any unique ways of looking
at it, or any possible ways of showing that it is a reality?

Personally, I believe in it 100%, but I don't have much logical proof
behind it. I believe that every object contains a certain amount of
positive nrg, and that nothing unreal exists...but I need some other
observations and ideas. Please share whatever is on your mind.

-Shannon 

"Eschew Obfuscation"

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 18:51:58 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: coler document

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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>The Hans Coler document was never written in German it was a British
>intelligence report, part of Project Paper Clip.  Some of the document
>that it quotes however were originally in German and were translated by
>British Intellignence.  You could inquire with the British Government
>archives whatever it is called.

I have a copy of the Hans Coler report from the British Imperial War
museum in London. Its on my WEB-pages found thru my signature-file below.
exit --- I vote for a flat society - like internet!
mailto:JohnnyFG@algonet.se
http://www.algonet.se/~johnnyfg/index.htm


================================== End Part 2 ==================================

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 18:52:57 1997
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get me off the list1At 06:28 PM 5/3/97 -0700, you wrote:
>freenrg-digest Digest				Volume 97 : Issue 157
>
>Today's Topics:
>	 Simple OU Device
>	 Simple Ou Device
>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>	 Re: Aaaa... don't slow down Earth !
>	 Re: Looking for meter
>	 Re: permanent? magnets
>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>	 The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been updated
>	 Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>	 Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>	 Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>	 Gary Magnet Motor Pix and Info
>	 Re: Gary Magnet Motor Pix and Info
>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>	 Strange pattern on a glass-window
>	 Re: Aaaa... don't slow down Earth !
>	 coler document
>	 Simple OU Device
>	 Free Energy receiver
>	 Re: coler document
>	 This is what we are building !
>	 Re: coler document
>	 Re: Free Energy receiver
>	 Re: Simple OU Device
>	 LIGHTNING
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 10:24:05 +0930
>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net,
>        freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Simple OU Device
>Message-ID: <336A8CAD.2EC@microtronics.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>HI All,
>
>Thanks for all the feedback.  I vaule it all.
>
>Here is my test setup and the results I get with my linear unit.
>
>
>Test Setup:
>===========
>
>The test setup is composed of 4 sections, all joined end to end and made
>as level as possible. The release is on the right side and the exit is
>on the left.  The sections are composed of 12mm alum "U" channel upon
>which a 12mm steel boll rolls from right to left.
>
>     ......Exit......Black Box.......Entry.......Release
>
>1) Release section:
> This is a 100mm section of alum 12mm alum "U" channel attached to the
>entry track.  The release section is bent up at approx 5 deg.  A small
>notch has been filed up the ramp as a index to assist the ball being
>released every time at the same position.  The notch  position was
>determined with the "Black Box" section removed and varying the release
>point to get the ball to just roll to the end of the 1mtr entry track
>without dropping over the end.  This I assumed gave me as close as zero
>ball energy at the entry point of the "Black Box" as possible.
>
>2) Entry section:
> This is a 1mtr long section of 12mm alum "U" channel as level as I can
>make it.
>
>3) Black Box Section:
> This unit contains magnets and more of the 12mm alum "U" channel.  The
>entry and exit track are at the same level.  The ball is pulled up the
>ramp by a graduated B field.
>
>4) Exit section:
> This is a 1mtr long sectin of 12mm alum "U" channel as level as I can
>make it.
>
>All sections are level and at the same height.
>
>
>Test Results:
>=============
>
>The steel ball is placed on the "calibrated" release notch and released.
>
>It roll down the release ramp and onto the entry track.
>
>As it rolls along the entry track, the ball starts to slow.
>
>Then it gets to with-in 75-100mm from the end of the entry track or from
>the start of the "Black Box" section. the ball starts rolling at a
>constant speed and slightly accelerates as it crosses over into the
>"Black Box" section.
>
>It leaves the "Black Box" section showing some slight drag back with-in
>the first 25-50mm and then happily rolls off the end of the 1 mtr exit
>track.
>
>
>Further Testing:
>================
>
>I have constructed a working three ramp unit to investigate the change
>in "Black Box" input alterations due to the influence of the exit
>field.  The testing here was to investigate the problems in attempting
>to close the loop.  I could not get two units oriented at right angles
>to work due to the complexs interactions of the exit and entry fields. 
>My idea here was to use 4 units set a right angles to each other to form
>a square and thus close the loop.  The three unit linear model does
>work.
>
>
>Conclusions on the Linear Unit:
>===============================
>
>A real energy gain is shown as well as the ability to move a mass.  The
>energy gain seems to be around 20-30%.  Closing the loop with such a
>model seems difficult as the frictional losses in returning the ball to
>the enrty point would be large.
>
>
>Rotary Unit:
>============
>
>My current work is centered on a rotary unit, quite different to the
>above.
>
>
>Long Term Intentions:
>=====================
>
>I do not intend to manuf a thing.  A license to use the technology will
>be available to any one who wishes to use it at a VERY LOW COST.  My
>current thinking is around $100 upfront and $1 / 1kw generation capacity
>per unit on a decreasing sliding scale.  I believe if the technology is
>available cheaply enough, its simpler and less costly in the long run to
>license it than steal it.
>
>As to getting rich, if my shareholders do, so will I.
>
>
>References:
>===========
>
>US Patent 4,215,330 issued 29 July, 1980.  Check it out.  
>
>
>Test Group:
>===========
>
>This patent was posted to the 9 members of my test group.  While is is
>not my device, is is close and an understanding of the patent would be
>of benefit.  To my knowledge, 4 members have constructed actual units. 
>I included in the group several critics to help keep us all honest.
>
><billb@eskimo.com>,
><bshannon@tiac.net>,
><catware@worldonline.nl>,       *Constructed*
><dequickert@ucdavis.edu>,       *Constructed*
><epitaxy@localaccess.com>,      *Constructed*
><gwatson@microtronics.com.au>,  *Constructed*
><harti@harti.com>,              *Working on a unit*
><jnaudin509@aol.com>,
><little@eden.com>,
><mrandall@earthlink.net>,       *Constructed*
><puthoff@aol.com>
>
>The group was formed to reduce list traffic and help to keep discussions
>in control.  If you wish to jon the group and be involved in actual
>construction and discussions please let me know.
>
>I should point out that the guys at Earth Tech are willing to test a
>"closed loop unit" unit at no charge.  I have accepted.
>
>-- 
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>                                          61 18 833 461  Mobile
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 11:11:17 +0930
>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net,
>        freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Simple Ou Device
>Message-ID: <336A97BD.11AE@microtronics.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Hi All,
>
>Here is the link to the Patent 4,215,330 :
>
>Right click on each image/page to save it to disk and then use any gif
>viewer to view or print it.
>
>This is not my device, but is close enough for you to build if you want
>to have a go and experiment.  It does work.
>
>http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/4215330
>
>-- 
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>                                          61 18 833 461  Mobile
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 18:52:47 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502185246.00a5e1b4@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Yes, I agree magnets do work (just like springs)... I don't think anybody
>with a little logic could disagree with this.
>
>
>The work done by the magnet is simply the amount of force exercised by the
>magnet over the distance which this force acts on something.
>
>If [W] denotes work, [F] force, [m] mass, [a] acceleration, [v] velocity,
>[d] distance traveled
>
>...according to the basic formula [W=fd] meaning that if a magnets attract
>ANY mass with a force of 1 Newton over the distance of 1 meter than the
>work done by/against the magnet will equal to 1 Joule.
>
>NOTE: that it doesn't matter if the attracted mass is 1 gram or 1 ton, the
>amount of work the magnet does to attract it for over  1 meter is 1 Joule,
>IN BOTH CASES !
>
>You can express the work [W] done by the magnet in variety of other ways,
>for example [W=mad] meaning a certain mass [m] accelerating at a certain
>rate [a] for a certain distance [d] denotes certain work done by the magnet
>
>... or [W=0.5mv^2] meaning that a magnet attracting certain mass [m] will
>accelerate it to a certain velocity [v] and the expression [0.5mv^2] will
>represent the amount of work [W] the magnet has done.
>
>
>The issue whether any work has to be done AGAINST the magnet before any
>work is done BY the magnet, is a completely different issue and very
>dependent on how large the "box" is.
>
>
>
>
>At 10:21 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>This started out as a preliminary stab at the effects of using Greg's 
>>magnetic ramp as an energy source. But it ends up skirting the issue, and 
>>becomes sort of a way of conventionally explaining what's going on, in real 
>>shallow terms :-).
>>
>>First, magnets have been doing work ever since we started using them. When 
>>you put a magnet up on the refrigerator, it does work as it pulls your hand 
>>with it toward the metal. You do an equivalent amount of work when you 
>>un-stick it later, but the magnet still did work. The magnet's work was 
>>balanced by your work.
>>
>>Gravity also does work, no? When you climb up a flight of stairs, you do 
>>lots of work to counter gravity. If you fall back down, gravity has done 
>>work. The system is balanced (even if you are not).
>>
>>In a permanent-magnet motor, the magnets are doing work. It is balanced by 
>>the work of the electromagnets, using electricity as their energy source.
>>
>>Permanent magnets are in wide use, and they are doing work. It's just that 
>>their work is usually balanced by energies that we provide.
>>
>>Greg's ramp is using one form of energy (gravitational) that we usually 
>>have to balance with our own energy, to offset another form of energy 
>>(magnetic) that we also usually have to balance with our own efforts. No 
>>big deal, right?
>>
>>Does anyone ever wonder whether we're depleting the Earth's gravitational 
>>energy when we fall down?
>>
>>In the same way, we've never stopped to wonder what the *efffects* of using 
>>magnets may be. Greg's asking a good question that maybe should be answered 
>>for our current, "conventional" widespread use of magnets.
>>
>>
>>Dan
>>
>>
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 19:05:39 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Aaaa... don't slow down Earth !
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502190537.00a5e1b4@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>...and the sum of earth's angular momentum + the heat radiated into space
>after we slowed down the earth a little with our infernal device, should be
>equal to the earth's angular momentum before we starting to perform our
>evil deed.
>
>...I don't understand why any one of you would like to limit the
>conservation of energy "generalization" ONLY to the mechanical angular
>momentum.  Electrical energy or EM radiation like heat are as "good" forms
>of energy as mechanical momentum.
>
>If these energies could, they would sue you for unfair discrimination
>(anthropomorphically speaking...)
>
>P.S.
>
>I remember reading somewhere that the earth's rotation rate is altered by
>man-made water reservoirs.  (ballerina effect)
>
>At 10:36 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>Larry Wharton wrote:
>>> No such invention can possibly work because of conservation of angular
>>> momentum.  If the Earth's rotation slows down then the angular momentum
>>> would decrease and that is not allowed. Only if angular momentum is
>>> exchanged with some third body orbiting the Earth, like the Moon, such that
>>> the total is constant could this idea work.  Through the years there have
>>> been many schemes like this proposed and they all don't involve the Moon
>>> and they all don't work.
>>
>>The moon has nothing to do with this particular invention.
>>I will dig out some info about this device and post a 
>>description. 
>>
>>For sure, angular momentum must be conserved in a closed system.
>>But the earth-moon is not a closed system. In fact, given 
>>an ample amount of time, the only truly closed system is
>>the entire universe -- maybe not even that.   
>>
>>In this particular invention, angular momentum is transferred
>>from the body of the earth, to an electro-magnetic field and/or  
>>mechanical device which can do useful work on or near the earth's 
>>surface, and then to waste heat at the surface and in the 
>>atmosphere, and eventually radiated into space.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Robert Stirniman
>>
>>
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 19:49:11 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Looking for meter
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502194910.00a69d00@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Tucker Surplus gas some 6 digit desktop DMM with 10uA DC range.  I gave
>seen other equipment in other catalogs but don't want to go and search
>through stack of ne right now.  If you are still unsuccessful in finding
>what you need, I'll browse.  Let me know
>
>At 12:43 PM 5/2/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>I am trying to locate a reasonably priced meter to measure very low
>>currents (in nA) and voltages (uV).  The best I've located so far is The
>>TENMA  AC Millivolt Meter ($175 from MCM Electronics, cat #72-450).  It has
>>the disadvantage of being AC voltage only and analog, but goes down to a
>>0-300 uV range, and has amplified output for an oscilloscope.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Horace Heffner          
>>
>>
>>
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 19:53:41 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: permanent? magnets
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502195339.00a6bdfc@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Yes, a permanent magnet not subjected to H fields above the B/H curve
>demagnetization knee, or curie temperature or critical G shock, will last
>forever.
>
>
>At 05:53 PM 5/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>I don't have any references, but I know the standard theory is, and my
>>experience has been, so long as you do not introduce reverse fields large
>>enough to actually start to demagnetize a magnet, a "good" magnet is not in
>>any measurable way effected by use.  ie you can use it in reversible field
>>configurations indefinitely without in any way "consuming" its energy.  Does
>>anyone else have any other opinions?
>>
>>
>>
>>                                                                        Keasy
>>
>>
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 21:54:16 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502215412.00a68180@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>I disagree. If you look at Greg's description below, the inclined release
>track is there ONLY to overcome the frictional losses of the entry track.
>Greg clearly states "zero ball energy at the entry point...", also the
>statement "... with the Black Box section removed..." is significant.
>
>In Greg's device the ball does NOT suffer repulsion as it enters the
>BlackBox, on the contrary, the ball is always attracted to the entry point.
>
>The reason for the calibrated release track is simple.  If the release
>track was not used and the ball was far away from the Black Box on the
>level entry track only, the magnetic attraction would not be strong enough
>to get the ball moving from such a distance.  Please remember that static
>friction is greater than dynamic (moving) friction.  By using the inclined
>release track Greg overcomes the starting friction and is able to measure
>the work [W=Fd] over a large distance even if the distance [d] is is large
>and [F] to small to get the ball rolling.
>
>Please remember that if the Black Box was absent, the system of the release
>and exit track would impart exactly ZERO kinetic energy to the ball at the
>entry point (end of the entry track)
>
>The dilution of the back attraction force over a large distance is what
>worries me, and I dare to state that this is the only possible flaw in
>Greg's analysis. (back-attraction force integrated over exit distance).
>
>All of the other objections that people have been voicing (ie.
>demagnetization of the magnets, input energy, eddy currents, etc..) are
>silly, insignificant and could be all avoided if they took the time to
>understand what Greg is writing.
>
>Permanent magnets do not get demagnetized by performing work in the form of
>ferrite attraction.  Demagnetization and magnet breakdown only happens if
>you push them to hard (ie. excessive H field from a coil or another
>stronger magnet, mechanical shock over critical G and thermal curie point).
>Almost everything can be destroyed if you push it to hard, it doesn't mean
>that it gets used up otherwise...
>
>
>
>
>
>At 11:34 PM 5/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>One thing that bothers me is that Greg says the release track is ramped
>>at about 5 deg - so this rig DOES have an input energy
>
>At 10:24 AM 5/3/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote:
>>>...with the "Black Box" section removed and varying the release
>>>point to get the ball to just roll to the end of the 1mtr entry track
>>>without dropping over the end.  This I assumed gave me as close as zero
>>>ball energy at the entry point of the "Black Box" as possible.
>Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:11:40 -0800
>From: pgb@padrak.com (Patrick Bailey)
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been updated
>Message-Id: <v02140b08af90875012c6@[205.149.162.154]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been updated at:
>
>http://www.padrak.com/ine/
>
>Most New Data Files are at:
>
>http://www.padrak.com/ine/index.shtml#INE_RECENT
>
>-------------     ------------------------------------------------------------
>Date Included     Additions, Expansions, or Revisions
>-------------     ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>May   3, 1997     Added:  NEN TOC Vol. 4, No. 12, April 1997
>                     So You Want To Be Involved In New Energy?
>                     Calibration For Cold Fusion
>                     Cold Fusion Bibliography Updated!
>                     NASA Preparing For The Future
>                     Gravitation Shielding Possible
>                     The Nature Of The Aether
>                     World Energy Report
>                     Letter From Hal Puthoff (On SHARP Drive)
>                  Added:  Proceedings of The 1996 International Conference On
>                      New Ideas In Natural Sciences (Forward,
>                      Conclusions, and Videotapes Available)
>                  Updated:  Fabulous Facts File,
>                     Websites, People, Organizations, etc.
>                  Site Counter = 98,515
>
>Dr. Patrick G. Bailey
>President, Institute for New Energy
>http://www.padrak.com/ine/
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 22:24:30 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502222428.00a743f8@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>I agree to the paragraph below.
>
>Does Greg disagree ?
>
>At 07:17 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>But in the case of an RLC in series
>>with a constant current power supply the supply voltage will have to
>>increase in order for the current to remain constant as the voltage
>>across the inductor increases trying to reduce the current such that the
>>energy remains the same in the inductor, thus energy in the inductor
>>will increase as L increases because the current has NOT changed
>>(assuming the P/S has done its job) - and this extra energy has come
>>from the power supply.     
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 22:31:45 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502223143.00a743f8@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>I agree.  The voltage across the coil must increase and be positive to keep
>the coil current constant.  That is what constant-current P/S does.  If
>this P/S wasn't doing its job than the I would decrease as the L increased.
>
>The more interesting question is whether the work [W=Fd] done by the
>inductor when attracting the ferrite is done at the expense of stored
>electrical energy [0.5LI^2]  ?????????????
>
>No conservation of energy arguments allowed here ! :-)
>
>At 07:17 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>The point of contention has to do with the SIGN of the voltage across
>>the coil. The maths say it is positive. Greg Watson says it is negative
>>- but he has not responded to that point.
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 22:34:22 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502223421.00a743f8@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Err.. I have a problem with: "...due to a positive voltage induced across
>the L..."
>
>Please rephrase and elaborate.
>...
>
>At 07:17 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>In the case of a constant-voltage P/S in series with the RLC there would
>>be no voltage change across the P/S but the current in R would drop due
>>to a positive voltage induced across the L.
>>
>>
>>L                 R 
>>////--0------<><><><>----------0 ``````````
>>////  ^                          |        |
>>////  | dL/dt                V   |  P/S   |
>>////--0------------------------0 |.........
>>
>>---
>>Maxwell
>>
>>
>>
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 22:37:50 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger@interlaced.net>
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502223748.00a7d2e4@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
>centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
>pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.
>
>At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
>>doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
>>friction to a mimimum - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
>>reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
>>approach.  
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 15:29:31 +0930
>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>Message-ID: <336AD443.2938@microtronics.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Epitaxy wrote:
>> 
>> Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
>> centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
>> pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.
>
>I agree, even though I haven't seen the referenced post.
>
>> At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>> >
>> >OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
>> >doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
>> >friction to a mimimum
>
>Wouldn't work.
>
>>> - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
>> >reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
>> >approach.
>
>Hi Guys,
>
>Seems I haven't received the post you refer to, anyhow the reason I use
>a alum "U" channel for the ball to roll on is the requirement for the
>ball to be in a balanced magnetic state if reference to the side to side
>magnetic attraction forces exerted by the two side magnet assy.  The
>alum channel allows for some unbalanced sideways magnetic forces to
>exist.  To be pulled side ways off the track requires the ball to be
>pulled up and over the side of the alum track.
>
>I tried tubing but found this allows side ways slop and greatly reduces
>the graduated mag ramp forces.  For max pull into the graduated field,
>side to side magnetic influences must be reduced to less than 5%.
>
>The alum channel didn't just happen. it was the best of several methods,
>considering the job it has to do.
>
>-- 
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 23:31:33 PST
>From: tv@juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
>To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com
>Cc: vortext-L@eskimo.com
>Subject: Gary Magnet Motor Pix and Info
>Message-ID: <19970220.233139.11894.0.tv@juno.com>
>
>I posted a Web page about the invention of Wesley Gary and his magnet
>motor
>including the missing diagrams that several of you wanted but I could not
>attach
>to email for some reason involving my mail server.
>
>The URL of the "Gary Effect" page is:
>
>http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4810
>
>Tim
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 01:37:30 -0700
>From: Jerry Decker <jdecker@keelynet.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Gary Magnet Motor Pix and Info
>Message-ID: <336AF94A.7157@keelynet.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Hi Tim!
>
>Excellent!  Thanks, will add the URL....
>-- 
>               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker@keelynet.com
>        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
>       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
>     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187
>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:10:49 -0800
>From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>Message-Id: <v01530509af90a2b763cb@[199.237.131.243]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>At 10:37 PM 5/2/97, Epitaxy wrote:
>>Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
>>centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
>>pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.
>
>A pendulum like so is useful (B are bearings, rest is rigid):
>
> ------B------------B-----
>        \          /
>         \        /
>          \      /
>           \    /
>            \  /
>             \/
>             xx
>
>>
>>At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>>
>>>OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
>>>doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
>>>friction to a mimimum - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
>>>reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
>>>approach.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 17:49:31 +0930
>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>Message-ID: <336AF513.24C9@microtronics.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>> 
>> At 10:37 PM 5/2/97, Epitaxy wrote:
>> >Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
>> >centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
>> >pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.
>> 
>> A pendulum like so is useful (B are bearings, rest is rigid):
>> 
>>  ------B------------B-----
>>         \          /
>>          \        /
>>           \      /
>>            \    /
>>             \  /
>>              \/
>>              xx
>> 
>> >
>> >At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>> >>
>> >>OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
>> >>doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
>> >>friction to a mimimum - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
>> >>reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
>> >>approach.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Horace Heffner
>
>Hi Guys,
>
>Nice pendulum idea Horace.  Sorry, but I can't use it.  Will file it for
>future reference.
>
>Check out the patent below to get a idea of what is happening in the
>"Black Box" :
>
>http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/4215330
>
>Just click on the link, it will load the first page of the patent.
>
>-- 
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 06:40:37 -0700
>From: JohnnyFG@algonet.se (Johnny Feelgood)
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Strange pattern on a glass-window
>Message-Id: <199705031340.GAA15335@mx1.eskimo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>I have updated my WEB-pages with some pictures showing strange
>pattern on a glass-window that appears when they are misty...
>Kind of reminds me about the David Hammel story.
>exit --- I vote for a flat society - like internet!
>mailto:JohnnyFG@algonet.se
>http://www.algonet.se/~johnnyfg/index.htm
>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:30:43 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Keasy@aol.com
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Aaaa... don't slow down Earth !
>Message-ID: <970503113042_-1031323492@emout07.mail.aol.com>
>
>Regarding this "don't slow down the earth!" issue everyone knows the rotation
>rate of the earth (earth-moon system, actually) is constantly slowing down
>because of tidal effects  --- a very small change, however.  An interesting
>calculation shows what will eventually happen.  Results are posted at
>http://members.aol.com/Keasy  and follow the earth/moon link.
>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:36:05 -0700
>From: "WESLY" <crosiar@goldrush.com>
>To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
>Subject: coler document
>Message-Id: <199705031807.LAA09874@claim.goldrush.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>TO ALL: Can anyone tell me where I can get the original HANS COLER DOCUMENT
>in GERMAN?
>THANKS WES
>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 14:26:32 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Keasy@aol.com
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Simple OU Device
>Message-ID: <970503142631_-1299795460@emout07.mail.aol.com>
>
>To all,
>     This is in response to Greg's posting of his set up and testing with his
>linear unit.
>    Several questions/comments/suggestions:
>     1.  How is it determined that the exit section is the same level as the
>entry section?  This is of course critical.
>     2.  If the magnets in the "black box" are in a configuration such that
>the magnetic circuit can be closed to minimize effects outside the "black
>box" volume that might be useful to consider.
>     3.  What happens if you add a release ramp (properly set up as in #1) on
>the left of the exit ramp and did the experiment WITH THE BLACK BOX REVERSED,
>from left to right?  If you do this and get the same results as from right to
>left (without touching anything else) but turning the "black box" around,
>then things are much more interesting.  If, in addition, you measure the
>fields at the entry point and end of exit ramp and they are on the same order
>(in any direction) as the earth's magnetic field, then it does become
>difficult to understand why it is not OU.
>     There are undoubtedly other useful approaches to understanding this OU
>device better but these come to mind.
>
>                                               Ken             Keasy@aol.com
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 21:55:42 +0200
>From: Bushi@multinet.net.il (Lev Robert)
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Free Energy receiver
>Message-ID: <B0000003930@192.115.50.1>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Hi All
>Why should you work so hard in order to obtain free energy when there are
>devices like the Radiant Energy. I read about it some time ago in the Tesla
>page. There is a patent on this too from 1901 "Utilization of Radiant
>Energy. Since the group is now fairly mature in coil design and since this
>kind of energy generation has no moving parts perhaps the has arived to give
>it a try. 
>Robert
>BUSHILEV
>Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 14:06:07 PST
>From: tv@juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: coler document
>Message-ID: <19970221.140924.9558.0.tv@juno.com>
>
>The Hans Coler document was never written in German it was a British
>intelligence report, part of Project Paper Clip.  Some of the document
>that it quotes however were originally in German and were translated by
>British Intellignence.  You could inquire with the British Government
>archives whatever it is called.
>
>Tim
>
>On Sat, 3 May 1997 11:36:05 -0700 "WESLY" <crosiar@goldrush.com> writes:
>>TO ALL: Can anyone tell me where I can get the original HANS COLER 
>>DOCUMENT
>>in GERMAN?
>>THANKS WES
>>
>>
>Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:07:15 +0200
>From: harti@bbtt.de (Stefan Hartmann)
>To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Cc: newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: This is what we are building !
>Message-Id: <199705032207.AAA03491@mail.bbtt.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Hi to all,
>
>cause I am pretty busy with other things I did not have much time
>to post recently on the free-energy lists.
>
>But I wanted to keep you all updated, what we are currently building:
>
>It is a flux switch unit. Today we ordered the plastic revolver
>chamber to hold the iron core material. Have a look at this picture.
>
>It was drawn by Dieter Bauer and he is the one, who pushes it foward.
>Here is the URL for the picture:
>
>http://www.overunity.de/ecklin/fig15.gif
>
>It should be a 3 dimensional side view...
>
>I hope you can imagine how it works...
>
>We hope, that in about 1 month we can have the first measurement results...
>
>
>Please also check out:
>
>http://www.overunity.de/ecklin/ecklin3.htm
>
>Best regards, Stefan.
>
>--
>Hartmann Multimedia Service
>Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
>Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
>http://www.harti.com    Webmaster of:
>www.detours.com    www.overunity.com   www.berlin-city.com
>www.nylon-fetish.com 
>email: harti@harti.com
>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 16:50:26 -0700 (PDT)
>From: JohnnyFG@algonet.se (Johnny Feelgood)
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: coler document
>Message-Id: <199705032350.QAA13321@mx2.eskimo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>>The Hans Coler document was never written in German it was a British
>>intelligence report, part of Project Paper Clip.  Some of the document
>>that it quotes however were originally in German and were translated by
>>British Intellignence.  You could inquire with the British Government
>>archives whatever it is called.
>
>I have a copy of the Hans Coler report from the British Imperial War
>museum in London. Its on my WEB-pages found thru my signature-file below.
>exit --- I vote for a flat society - like internet!
>mailto:JohnnyFG@algonet.se
>http://www.algonet.se/~johnnyfg/index.htm
>Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 09:48:14
>From: Geoff Egel <egel@main.murray.net.au>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Free Energy receiver
>Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19970504094814.2b7f9cc6@main.murray.net.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>At 09:55 PM 5/3/97 +0200, you wrote:
>>Hi All
>>Why should you work so hard in order to obtain free energy when there are
>>devices like the Radiant Energy. I read about it some time ago in the Tesla
>>page. There is a patent on this too from 1901 "Utilization of Radiant
>>Energy. Since the group is now fairly mature in coil design and since this
>>kind of energy generation has no moving parts perhaps the has arived to give
>>it a try. 
>>Robert
>>BUSHILEV
>>
>>
>>Correct me if I am wrong
>
>But I believe Tesla never actually constructed this device  but only
>imagined it.
>Note that this is not problem most of his inventions he conceived this way
>and then had them constructed by his engineers and he claimed they always
>worked.
>
>Geoff Egel
>http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel 
>Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 10:02:03 +0930
>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device
>Message-ID: <336BD903.1294@microtronics.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Keasy@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> To all,
>>      This is in response to Greg's posting of his set up and testing with his
>> linear unit.
>>     Several questions/comments/suggestions:
>>      1.  How is it determined that the exit section is the same level as the
>> entry section?  This is of course critical.
>
>By sighting along the "U" channels.  Its not really critical.
>
>>      2.  If the magnets in the "black box" are in a configuration such that
>> the magnetic circuit can be closed to minimize effects outside the "black
>> box" volume that might be useful to consider.
>
>Very difficult.
>
>>      3.  What happens if you add a release ramp (properly set up as in #1) on
>> the left of the exit ramp and did the experiment WITH THE BLACK BOX REVERSED,
>> from left to right?  If you do this and get the same results as from right to
>> left (without touching anything else) but turning the "black box" around,
>> then things are much more interesting.  
>
>Hadn't thought of that.  I have however taken it appart and put it
>together many times in many different ways.  Still works.
>
>> If, in addition, you measure the
>> fields at the entry point and end of exit ramp and they are on the same order
>> (in any direction) as the earth's magnetic field, then it does become
>> difficult to understand why it is not OU.
>
>There are no real entry and exit points.
>
>> There are undoubtedly other useful approaches to understanding this OU
>> device better but these come to mind.
>> 
>>                                                Ken             Keasy@aol.com
>
>Hi Ken,
>
>Thanks for the input.
>
>-- 
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 21:18:10 -0400
>From: "O'Connor" <poconnor@bciu.k12.pa.us>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: LIGHTNING
>Message-ID: <336BE3CD.1503@bciu.k12.pa.us>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>I'm just wondering if anyone else out there is wondering why lightning
>is not being harnessed for power usage.
>
>I am positively sure that we have enough technology to capture/harness
>the energy...but we aren't using it in our homes ect yet...
>
>-Shannon 
>
>========================                   
>= "Eschew Obfuscation" =
>========================
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 19:18:37 1997
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 19:22:13 1997
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Subject: Re: freenrg-digest Digest V97 #158
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Lots of white light hits the sun and passes thru the atmosphere.  The deeper
it gets the more the blue light spreads away.  By the time it hits the
ground, the white light turns yellow.  I think everybody should drive BMWs,
and Jeeps.  I like 'em, don't you?  Make sure your trash can lids are on
tight!  Nighty-night, and have a pleasant tommarrow!!!At 06:53 PM 5/3/97
-0700, you wrote:
>freenrg-digest Digest				Volume 97 : Issue 158
>
>Today's Topics:
>	 Positive Nrg
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 21:17:54 -0400
>From: "O'Connor" <poconnor@bciu.k12.pa.us>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Positive Nrg
>Message-ID: <336BE3BD.20ED@bciu.k12.pa.us>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Does anyone have any opinions on telekenisis? Any unique ways of looking
>at it, or any possible ways of showing that it is a reality?
>
>Personally, I believe in it 100%, but I don't have much logical proof
>behind it. I believe that every object contains a certain amount of
>positive nrg, and that nothing unreal exists...but I need some other
>observations and ideas. Please share whatever is on your mind.
>
>-Shannon 
>
>"Eschew Obfuscation"
>

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At 09:55 PM 5/3/97 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi All
>Why should you work so hard in order to obtain free energy when there are
>devices like the Radiant Energy. I read about it some time ago in the Tesla
>page. There is a patent on this too from 1901 "Utilization of Radiant
>Energy. Since the group is now fairly mature in coil design and since this
>kind of energy generation has no moving parts perhaps the has arived to give
>it a try. 
>Robert
>BUSHILEV
>
>
>Correct me if I am wrong

But I believe Tesla never actually constructed this device  but only
imagined it.
Note that this is not problem most of his inventions he conceived this way
and then had them constructed by his engineers and he claimed they always
worked.

Geoff Egel
http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel 


================================== End Part 2 ==================================

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get me off the list1At 06:28 PM 5/3/97 -0700, you wrote:
>freenrg-digest Digest				Volume 97 : Issue 157
>
>Today's Topics:
>	 Simple OU Device
>	 Simple Ou Device
>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>	 Re: Aaaa... don't slow down Earth !
>	 Re: Looking for meter
>	 Re: permanent? magnets
>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>	 The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been updated
>	 Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>	 Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>	 Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>	 Gary Magnet Motor Pix and Info
>	 Re: Gary Magnet Motor Pix and Info
>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>	 Strange pattern on a glass-window
>	 Re: Aaaa... don't slow down Earth !
>	 coler document
>	 Simple OU Device
>	 Free Energy receiver
>	 Re: coler document
>	 This is what we are building !
>	 Re: coler document
>	 Re: Free Energy receiver
>	 Re: Simple OU Device
>	 LIGHTNING
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 10:24:05 +0930
>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net,
>        freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Simple OU Device
>Message-ID: <336A8CAD.2EC@microtronics.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>HI All,
>
>Thanks for all the feedback.  I vaule it all.
>
>Here is my test setup and the results I get with my linear unit.
>
>
>Test Setup:
>===========
>
>The test setup is composed of 4 sections, all joined end to end and made
>as level as possible. The release is on the right side and the exit is
>on the left.  The sections are composed of 12mm alum "U" channel upon
>which a 12mm steel boll rolls from right to left.
>
>     ......Exit......Black Box.......Entry.......Release
>
>1) Release section:
> This is a 100mm section of alum 12mm alum "U" channel attached to the
>entry track.  The release section is bent up at approx 5 deg.  A small
>notch has been filed up the ramp as a index to assist the ball being
>released every time at the same position.  The notch  position was
>determined with the "Black Box" section removed and varying the release
>point to get the ball to just roll to the end of the 1mtr entry track
>without dropping over the end.  This I assumed gave me as close as zero
>ball energy at the entry point of the "Black Box" as possible.
>
>2) Entry section:
> This is a 1mtr long section of 12mm alum "U" channel as level as I can
>make it.
>
>3) Black Box Section:
> This unit contains magnets and more of the 12mm alum "U" channel.  The
>entry and exit track are at the same level.  The ball is pulled up the
>ramp by a graduated B field.
>
>4) Exit section:
> This is a 1mtr long sectin of 12mm alum "U" channel as level as I can
>make it.
>
>All sections are level and at the same height.
>
>
>Test Results:
>=============
>
>The steel ball is placed on the "calibrated" release notch and released.
>
>It roll down the release ramp and onto the entry track.
>
>As it rolls along the entry track, the ball starts to slow.
>
>Then it gets to with-in 75-100mm from the end of the entry track or from
>the start of the "Black Box" section. the ball starts rolling at a
>constant speed and slightly accelerates as it crosses over into the
>"Black Box" section.
>
>It leaves the "Black Box" section showing some slight drag back with-in
>the first 25-50mm and then happily rolls off the end of the 1 mtr exit
>track.
>
>
>Further Testing:
>================
>
>I have constructed a working three ramp unit to investigate the change
>in "Black Box" input alterations due to the influence of the exit
>field.  The testing here was to investigate the problems in attempting
>to close the loop.  I could not get two units oriented at right angles
>to work due to the complexs interactions of the exit and entry fields. 
>My idea here was to use 4 units set a right angles to each other to form
>a square and thus close the loop.  The three unit linear model does
>work.
>
>
>Conclusions on the Linear Unit:
>===============================
>
>A real energy gain is shown as well as the ability to move a mass.  The
>energy gain seems to be around 20-30%.  Closing the loop with such a
>model seems difficult as the frictional losses in returning the ball to
>the enrty point would be large.
>
>
>Rotary Unit:
>============
>
>My current work is centered on a rotary unit, quite different to the
>above.
>
>
>Long Term Intentions:
>=====================
>
>I do not intend to manuf a thing.  A license to use the technology will
>be available to any one who wishes to use it at a VERY LOW COST.  My
>current thinking is around $100 upfront and $1 / 1kw generation capacity
>per unit on a decreasing sliding scale.  I believe if the technology is
>available cheaply enough, its simpler and less costly in the long run to
>license it than steal it.
>
>As to getting rich, if my shareholders do, so will I.
>
>
>References:
>===========
>
>US Patent 4,215,330 issued 29 July, 1980.  Check it out.  
>
>
>Test Group:
>===========
>
>This patent was posted to the 9 members of my test group.  While is is
>not my device, is is close and an understanding of the patent would be
>of benefit.  To my knowledge, 4 members have constructed actual units. 
>I included in the group several critics to help keep us all honest.
>
><billb@eskimo.com>,
><bshannon@tiac.net>,
><catware@worldonline.nl>,       *Constructed*
><dequickert@ucdavis.edu>,       *Constructed*
><epitaxy@localaccess.com>,      *Constructed*
><gwatson@microtronics.com.au>,  *Constructed*
><harti@harti.com>,              *Working on a unit*
><jnaudin509@aol.com>,
><little@eden.com>,
><mrandall@earthlink.net>,       *Constructed*
><puthoff@aol.com>
>
>The group was formed to reduce list traffic and help to keep discussions
>in control.  If you wish to jon the group and be involved in actual
>construction and discussions please let me know.
>
>I should point out that the guys at Earth Tech are willing to test a
>"closed loop unit" unit at no charge.  I have accepted.
>
>-- 
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>                                          61 18 833 461  Mobile
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 11:11:17 +0930
>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net,
>        freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Simple Ou Device
>Message-ID: <336A97BD.11AE@microtronics.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Hi All,
>
>Here is the link to the Patent 4,215,330 :
>
>Right click on each image/page to save it to disk and then use any gif
>viewer to view or print it.
>
>This is not my device, but is close enough for you to build if you want
>to have a go and experiment.  It does work.
>
>http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/4215330
>
>-- 
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>                                          61 18 833 461  Mobile
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 18:52:47 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502185246.00a5e1b4@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Yes, I agree magnets do work (just like springs)... I don't think anybody
>with a little logic could disagree with this.
>
>
>The work done by the magnet is simply the amount of force exercised by the
>magnet over the distance which this force acts on something.
>
>If [W] denotes work, [F] force, [m] mass, [a] acceleration, [v] velocity,
>[d] distance traveled
>
>...according to the basic formula [W=fd] meaning that if a magnets attract
>ANY mass with a force of 1 Newton over the distance of 1 meter than the
>work done by/against the magnet will equal to 1 Joule.
>
>NOTE: that it doesn't matter if the attracted mass is 1 gram or 1 ton, the
>amount of work the magnet does to attract it for over  1 meter is 1 Joule,
>IN BOTH CASES !
>
>You can express the work [W] done by the magnet in variety of other ways,
>for example [W=mad] meaning a certain mass [m] accelerating at a certain
>rate [a] for a certain distance [d] denotes certain work done by the magnet
>
>... or [W=0.5mv^2] meaning that a magnet attracting certain mass [m] will
>accelerate it to a certain velocity [v] and the expression [0.5mv^2] will
>represent the amount of work [W] the magnet has done.
>
>
>The issue whether any work has to be done AGAINST the magnet before any
>work is done BY the magnet, is a completely different issue and very
>dependent on how large the "box" is.
>
>
>
>
>At 10:21 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>This started out as a preliminary stab at the effects of using Greg's 
>>magnetic ramp as an energy source. But it ends up skirting the issue, and 
>>becomes sort of a way of conventionally explaining what's going on, in real 
>>shallow terms :-).
>>
>>First, magnets have been doing work ever since we started using them. When 
>>you put a magnet up on the refrigerator, it does work as it pulls your hand 
>>with it toward the metal. You do an equivalent amount of work when you 
>>un-stick it later, but the magnet still did work. The magnet's work was 
>>balanced by your work.
>>
>>Gravity also does work, no? When you climb up a flight of stairs, you do 
>>lots of work to counter gravity. If you fall back down, gravity has done 
>>work. The system is balanced (even if you are not).
>>
>>In a permanent-magnet motor, the magnets are doing work. It is balanced by 
>>the work of the electromagnets, using electricity as their energy source.
>>
>>Permanent magnets are in wide use, and they are doing work. It's just that 
>>their work is usually balanced by energies that we provide.
>>
>>Greg's ramp is using one form of energy (gravitational) that we usually 
>>have to balance with our own energy, to offset another form of energy 
>>(magnetic) that we also usually have to balance with our own efforts. No 
>>big deal, right?
>>
>>Does anyone ever wonder whether we're depleting the Earth's gravitational 
>>energy when we fall down?
>>
>>In the same way, we've never stopped to wonder what the *efffects* of using 
>>magnets may be. Greg's asking a good question that maybe should be answered 
>>for our current, "conventional" widespread use of magnets.
>>
>>
>>Dan
>>
>>
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 19:05:39 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Aaaa... don't slow down Earth !
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502190537.00a5e1b4@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>...and the sum of earth's angular momentum + the heat radiated into space
>after we slowed down the earth a little with our infernal device, should be
>equal to the earth's angular momentum before we starting to perform our
>evil deed.
>
>...I don't understand why any one of you would like to limit the
>conservation of energy "generalization" ONLY to the mechanical angular
>momentum.  Electrical energy or EM radiation like heat are as "good" forms
>of energy as mechanical momentum.
>
>If these energies could, they would sue you for unfair discrimination
>(anthropomorphically speaking...)
>
>P.S.
>
>I remember reading somewhere that the earth's rotation rate is altered by
>man-made water reservoirs.  (ballerina effect)
>
>At 10:36 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>Larry Wharton wrote:
>>> No such invention can possibly work because of conservation of angular
>>> momentum.  If the Earth's rotation slows down then the angular momentum
>>> would decrease and that is not allowed. Only if angular momentum is
>>> exchanged with some third body orbiting the Earth, like the Moon, such that
>>> the total is constant could this idea work.  Through the years there have
>>> been many schemes like this proposed and they all don't involve the Moon
>>> and they all don't work.
>>
>>The moon has nothing to do with this particular invention.
>>I will dig out some info about this device and post a 
>>description. 
>>
>>For sure, angular momentum must be conserved in a closed system.
>>But the earth-moon is not a closed system. In fact, given 
>>an ample amount of time, the only truly closed system is
>>the entire universe -- maybe not even that.   
>>
>>In this particular invention, angular momentum is transferred
>>from the body of the earth, to an electro-magnetic field and/or  
>>mechanical device which can do useful work on or near the earth's 
>>surface, and then to waste heat at the surface and in the 
>>atmosphere, and eventually radiated into space.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Robert Stirniman
>>
>>
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 19:49:11 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Looking for meter
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502194910.00a69d00@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Tucker Surplus gas some 6 digit desktop DMM with 10uA DC range.  I gave
>seen other equipment in other catalogs but don't want to go and search
>through stack of ne right now.  If you are still unsuccessful in finding
>what you need, I'll browse.  Let me know
>
>At 12:43 PM 5/2/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>I am trying to locate a reasonably priced meter to measure very low
>>currents (in nA) and voltages (uV).  The best I've located so far is The
>>TENMA  AC Millivolt Meter ($175 from MCM Electronics, cat #72-450).  It has
>>the disadvantage of being AC voltage only and analog, but goes down to a
>>0-300 uV range, and has amplified output for an oscilloscope.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Horace Heffner          
>>
>>
>>
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 19:53:41 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: permanent? magnets
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502195339.00a6bdfc@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Yes, a permanent magnet not subjected to H fields above the B/H curve
>demagnetization knee, or curie temperature or critical G shock, will last
>forever.
>
>
>At 05:53 PM 5/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>I don't have any references, but I know the standard theory is, and my
>>experience has been, so long as you do not introduce reverse fields large
>>enough to actually start to demagnetize a magnet, a "good" magnet is not in
>>any measurable way effected by use.  ie you can use it in reversible field
>>configurations indefinitely without in any way "consuming" its energy.  Does
>>anyone else have any other opinions?
>>
>>
>>
>>                                                                        Keasy
>>
>>
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 21:54:16 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502215412.00a68180@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>I disagree. If you look at Greg's description below, the inclined release
>track is there ONLY to overcome the frictional losses of the entry track.
>Greg clearly states "zero ball energy at the entry point...", also the
>statement "... with the Black Box section removed..." is significant.
>
>In Greg's device the ball does NOT suffer repulsion as it enters the
>BlackBox, on the contrary, the ball is always attracted to the entry point.
>
>The reason for the calibrated release track is simple.  If the release
>track was not used and the ball was far away from the Black Box on the
>level entry track only, the magnetic attraction would not be strong enough
>to get the ball moving from such a distance.  Please remember that static
>friction is greater than dynamic (moving) friction.  By using the inclined
>release track Greg overcomes the starting friction and is able to measure
>the work [W=Fd] over a large distance even if the distance [d] is is large
>and [F] to small to get the ball rolling.
>
>Please remember that if the Black Box was absent, the system of the release
>and exit track would impart exactly ZERO kinetic energy to the ball at the
>entry point (end of the entry track)
>
>The dilution of the back attraction force over a large distance is what
>worries me, and I dare to state that this is the only possible flaw in
>Greg's analysis. (back-attraction force integrated over exit distance).
>
>All of the other objections that people have been voicing (ie.
>demagnetization of the magnets, input energy, eddy currents, etc..) are
>silly, insignificant and could be all avoided if they took the time to
>understand what Greg is writing.
>
>Permanent magnets do not get demagnetized by performing work in the form of
>ferrite attraction.  Demagnetization and magnet breakdown only happens if
>you push them to hard (ie. excessive H field from a coil or another
>stronger magnet, mechanical shock over critical G and thermal curie point).
>Almost everything can be destroyed if you push it to hard, it doesn't mean
>that it gets used up otherwise...
>
>
>
>
>
>At 11:34 PM 5/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>One thing that bothers me is that Greg says the release track is ramped
>>at about 5 deg - so this rig DOES have an input energy
>
>At 10:24 AM 5/3/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote:
>>>...with the "Black Box" section removed and varying the release
>>>point to get the ball to just roll to the end of the 1mtr entry track
>>>without dropping over the end.  This I assumed gave me as close as zero
>>>ball energy at the entry point of the "Black Box" as possible.
>Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:11:40 -0800
>From: pgb@padrak.com (Patrick Bailey)
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been updated
>Message-Id: <v02140b08af90875012c6@[205.149.162.154]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been updated at:
>
>http://www.padrak.com/ine/
>
>Most New Data Files are at:
>
>http://www.padrak.com/ine/index.shtml#INE_RECENT
>
>-------------     ------------------------------------------------------------
>Date Included     Additions, Expansions, or Revisions
>-------------     ------------------------------------------------------------
>
>May   3, 1997     Added:  NEN TOC Vol. 4, No. 12, April 1997
>                     So You Want To Be Involved In New Energy?
>                     Calibration For Cold Fusion
>                     Cold Fusion Bibliography Updated!
>                     NASA Preparing For The Future
>                     Gravitation Shielding Possible
>                     The Nature Of The Aether
>                     World Energy Report
>                     Letter From Hal Puthoff (On SHARP Drive)
>                  Added:  Proceedings of The 1996 International Conference On
>                      New Ideas In Natural Sciences (Forward,
>                      Conclusions, and Videotapes Available)
>                  Updated:  Fabulous Facts File,
>                     Websites, People, Organizations, etc.
>                  Site Counter = 98,515
>
>Dr. Patrick G. Bailey
>President, Institute for New Energy
>http://www.padrak.com/ine/
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 22:24:30 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502222428.00a743f8@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>I agree to the paragraph below.
>
>Does Greg disagree ?
>
>At 07:17 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>But in the case of an RLC in series
>>with a constant current power supply the supply voltage will have to
>>increase in order for the current to remain constant as the voltage
>>across the inductor increases trying to reduce the current such that the
>>energy remains the same in the inductor, thus energy in the inductor
>>will increase as L increases because the current has NOT changed
>>(assuming the P/S has done its job) - and this extra energy has come
>>from the power supply.     
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 22:31:45 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502223143.00a743f8@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>I agree.  The voltage across the coil must increase and be positive to keep
>the coil current constant.  That is what constant-current P/S does.  If
>this P/S wasn't doing its job than the I would decrease as the L increased.
>
>The more interesting question is whether the work [W=Fd] done by the
>inductor when attracting the ferrite is done at the expense of stored
>electrical energy [0.5LI^2]  ?????????????
>
>No conservation of energy arguments allowed here ! :-)
>
>At 07:17 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>The point of contention has to do with the SIGN of the voltage across
>>the coil. The maths say it is positive. Greg Watson says it is negative
>>- but he has not responded to that point.
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 22:34:22 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502223421.00a743f8@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Err.. I have a problem with: "...due to a positive voltage induced across
>the L..."
>
>Please rephrase and elaborate.
>...
>
>At 07:17 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>In the case of a constant-voltage P/S in series with the RLC there would
>>be no voltage change across the P/S but the current in R would drop due
>>to a positive voltage induced across the L.
>>
>>
>>L                 R 
>>////--0------<><><><>----------0 ``````````
>>////  ^                          |        |
>>////  | dL/dt                V   |  P/S   |
>>////--0------------------------0 |.........
>>
>>---
>>Maxwell
>>
>>
>>
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 22:37:50 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger@interlaced.net>
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502223748.00a7d2e4@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
>centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
>pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.
>
>At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
>>doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
>>friction to a mimimum - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
>>reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
>>approach.  
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 15:29:31 +0930
>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>Message-ID: <336AD443.2938@microtronics.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Epitaxy wrote:
>> 
>> Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
>> centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
>> pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.
>
>I agree, even though I haven't seen the referenced post.
>
>> At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>> >
>> >OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
>> >doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
>> >friction to a mimimum
>
>Wouldn't work.
>
>>> - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
>> >reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
>> >approach.
>
>Hi Guys,
>
>Seems I haven't received the post you refer to, anyhow the reason I use
>a alum "U" channel for the ball to roll on is the requirement for the
>ball to be in a balanced magnetic state if reference to the side to side
>magnetic attraction forces exerted by the two side magnet assy.  The
>alum channel allows for some unbalanced sideways magnetic forces to
>exist.  To be pulled side ways off the track requires the ball to be
>pulled up and over the side of the alum track.
>
>I tried tubing but found this allows side ways slop and greatly reduces
>the graduated mag ramp forces.  For max pull into the graduated field,
>side to side magnetic influences must be reduced to less than 5%.
>
>The alum channel didn't just happen. it was the best of several methods,
>considering the job it has to do.
>
>-- 
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 23:31:33 PST
>From: tv@juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
>To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com
>Cc: vortext-L@eskimo.com
>Subject: Gary Magnet Motor Pix and Info
>Message-ID: <19970220.233139.11894.0.tv@juno.com>
>
>I posted a Web page about the invention of Wesley Gary and his magnet
>motor
>including the missing diagrams that several of you wanted but I could not
>attach
>to email for some reason involving my mail server.
>
>The URL of the "Gary Effect" page is:
>
>http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4810
>
>Tim
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 01:37:30 -0700
>From: Jerry Decker <jdecker@keelynet.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Gary Magnet Motor Pix and Info
>Message-ID: <336AF94A.7157@keelynet.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Hi Tim!
>
>Excellent!  Thanks, will add the URL....
>-- 
>               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker@keelynet.com
>        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
>       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
>     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187
>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:10:49 -0800
>From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>Message-Id: <v01530509af90a2b763cb@[199.237.131.243]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>At 10:37 PM 5/2/97, Epitaxy wrote:
>>Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
>>centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
>>pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.
>
>A pendulum like so is useful (B are bearings, rest is rigid):
>
> ------B------------B-----
>        \          /
>         \        /
>          \      /
>           \    /
>            \  /
>             \/
>             xx
>
>>
>>At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>>
>>>OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
>>>doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
>>>friction to a mimimum - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
>>>reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
>>>approach.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 17:49:31 +0930
>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>Message-ID: <336AF513.24C9@microtronics.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>> 
>> At 10:37 PM 5/2/97, Epitaxy wrote:
>> >Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
>> >centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
>> >pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.
>> 
>> A pendulum like so is useful (B are bearings, rest is rigid):
>> 
>>  ------B------------B-----
>>         \          /
>>          \        /
>>           \      /
>>            \    /
>>             \  /
>>              \/
>>              xx
>> 
>> >
>> >At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>> >>
>> >>OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
>> >>doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
>> >>friction to a mimimum - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
>> >>reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
>> >>approach.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Horace Heffner
>
>Hi Guys,
>
>Nice pendulum idea Horace.  Sorry, but I can't use it.  Will file it for
>future reference.
>
>Check out the patent below to get a idea of what is happening in the
>"Black Box" :
>
>http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/4215330
>
>Just click on the link, it will load the first page of the patent.
>
>-- 
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 06:40:37 -0700
>From: JohnnyFG@algonet.se (Johnny Feelgood)
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Strange pattern on a glass-window
>Message-Id: <199705031340.GAA15335@mx1.eskimo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>I have updated my WEB-pages with some pictures showing strange
>pattern on a glass-window that appears when they are misty...
>Kind of reminds me about the David Hammel story.
>exit --- I vote for a flat society - like internet!
>mailto:JohnnyFG@algonet.se
>http://www.algonet.se/~johnnyfg/index.htm
>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:30:43 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Keasy@aol.com
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Aaaa... don't slow down Earth !
>Message-ID: <970503113042_-1031323492@emout07.mail.aol.com>
>
>Regarding this "don't slow down the earth!" issue everyone knows the rotation
>rate of the earth (earth-moon system, actually) is constantly slowing down
>because of tidal effects  --- a very small change, however.  An interesting
>calculation shows what will eventually happen.  Results are posted at
>http://members.aol.com/Keasy  and follow the earth/moon link.
>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:36:05 -0700
>From: "WESLY" <crosiar@goldrush.com>
>To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
>Subject: coler document
>Message-Id: <199705031807.LAA09874@claim.goldrush.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>TO ALL: Can anyone tell me where I can get the original HANS COLER DOCUMENT
>in GERMAN?
>THANKS WES
>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 14:26:32 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Keasy@aol.com
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Simple OU Device
>Message-ID: <970503142631_-1299795460@emout07.mail.aol.com>
>
>To all,
>     This is in response to Greg's posting of his set up and testing with his
>linear unit.
>    Several questions/comments/suggestions:
>     1.  How is it determined that the exit section is the same level as the
>entry section?  This is of course critical.
>     2.  If the magnets in the "black box" are in a configuration such that
>the magnetic circuit can be closed to minimize effects outside the "black
>box" volume that might be useful to consider.
>     3.  What happens if you add a release ramp (properly set up as in #1) on
>the left of the exit ramp and did the experiment WITH THE BLACK BOX REVERSED,
>from left to right?  If you do this and get the same results as from right to
>left (without touching anything else) but turning the "black box" around,
>then things are much more interesting.  If, in addition, you measure the
>fields at the entry point and end of exit ramp and they are on the same order
>(in any direction) as the earth's magnetic field, then it does become
>difficult to understand why it is not OU.
>     There are undoubtedly other useful approaches to understanding this OU
>device better but these come to mind.
>
>                                               Ken             Keasy@aol.com
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 21:55:42 +0200
>From: Bushi@multinet.net.il (Lev Robert)
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Free Energy receiver
>Message-ID: <B0000003930@192.115.50.1>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Hi All
>Why should you work so hard in order to obtain free energy when there are
>devices like the Radiant Energy. I read about it some time ago in the Tesla
>page. There is a patent on this too from 1901 "Utilization of Radiant
>Energy. Since the group is now fairly mature in coil design and since this
>kind of energy generation has no moving parts perhaps the has arived to give
>it a try. 
>Robert
>BUSHILEV
>Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 14:06:07 PST
>From: tv@juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: coler document
>Message-ID: <19970221.140924.9558.0.tv@juno.com>
>
>The Hans Coler document was never written in German it was a British
>intelligence report, part of Project Paper Clip.  Some of the document
>that it quotes however were originally in German and were translated by
>British Intellignence.  You could inquire with the British Government
>archives whatever it is called.
>
>Tim
>
>On Sat, 3 May 1997 11:36:05 -0700 "WESLY" <crosiar@goldrush.com> writes:
>>TO ALL: Can anyone tell me where I can get the original HANS COLER 
>>DOCUMENT
>>in GERMAN?
>>THANKS WES
>>
>>
>Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:07:15 +0200
>From: harti@bbtt.de (Stefan Hartmann)
>To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Cc: newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: This is what we are building !
>Message-Id: <199705032207.AAA03491@mail.bbtt.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Hi to all,
>
>cause I am pretty busy with other things I did not have much time
>to post recently on the free-energy lists.
>
>But I wanted to keep you all updated, what we are currently building:
>
>It is a flux switch unit. Today we ordered the plastic revolver
>chamber to hold the iron core material. Have a look at this picture.
>
>It was drawn by Dieter Bauer and he is the one, who pushes it foward.
>Here is the URL for the picture:
>
>http://www.overunity.de/ecklin/fig15.gif
>
>It should be a 3 dimensional side view...
>
>I hope you can imagine how it works...
>
>We hope, that in about 1 month we can have the first measurement results...
>
>
>Please also check out:
>
>http://www.overunity.de/ecklin/ecklin3.htm
>
>Best regards, Stefan.
>
>--
>Hartmann Multimedia Service
>Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
>Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
>http://www.harti.com    Webmaster of:
>www.detours.com    www.overunity.com   www.berlin-city.com
>www.nylon-fetish.com 
>email: harti@harti.com
>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 16:50:26 -0700 (PDT)
>From: JohnnyFG@algonet.se (Johnny Feelgood)
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: coler document
>Message-Id: <199705032350.QAA13321@mx2.eskimo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>>The Hans Coler document was never written in German it was a British
>>intelligence report, part of Project Paper Clip.  Some of the document
>>that it quotes however were originally in German and were translated by
>>British Intellignence.  You could inquire with the British Government
>>archives whatever it is called.
>
>I have a copy of the Hans Coler report from the British Imperial War
>museum in London. Its on my WEB-pages found thru my signature-file below.
>exit --- I vote for a flat society - like internet!
>mailto:JohnnyFG@algonet.se
>http://www.algonet.se/~johnnyfg/index.htm
>Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 09:48:14
>From: Geoff Egel <egel@main.murray.net.au>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Free Energy receiver
>Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19970504094814.2b7f9cc6@main.murray.net.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>At 09:55 PM 5/3/97 +0200, you wrote:
>>Hi All
>>Why should you work so hard in order to obtain free energy when there are
>>devices like the Radiant Energy. I read about it some time ago in the Tesla
>>page. There is a patent on this too from 1901 "Utilization of Radiant
>>Energy. Since the group is now fairly mature in coil design and since this
>>kind of energy generation has no moving parts perhaps the has arived to give
>>it a try. 
>>Robert
>>BUSHILEV
>>
>>
>>Correct me if I am wrong
>
>But I believe Tesla never actually constructed this device  but only
>imagined it.
>Note that this is not problem most of his inventions he conceived this way
>and then had them constructed by his engineers and he claimed they always
>worked.
>
>Geoff Egel
>http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel 
>Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 10:02:03 +0930
>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device
>Message-ID: <336BD903.1294@microtronics.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Keasy@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> To all,
>>      This is in response to Greg's posting of his set up and testing with his
>> linear unit.
>>     Several questions/comments/suggestions:
>>      1.  How is it determined that the exit section is the same level as the
>> entry section?  This is of course critical.
>
>By sighting along the "U" channels.  Its not really critical.
>
>>      2.  If the magnets in the "black box" are in a configuration such that
>> the magnetic circuit can be closed to minimize effects outside the "black
>> box" volume that might be useful to consider.
>
>Very difficult.
>
>>      3.  What happens if you add a release ramp (properly set up as in #1) on
>> the left of the exit ramp and did the experiment WITH THE BLACK BOX REVERSED,
>> from left to right?  If you do this and get the same results as from right to
>> left (without touching anything else) but turning the "black box" around,
>> then things are much more interesting.  
>
>Hadn't thought of that.  I have however taken it appart and put it
>together many times in many different ways.  Still works.
>
>> If, in addition, you measure the
>> fields at the entry point and end of exit ramp and they are on the same order
>> (in any direction) as the earth's magnetic field, then it does become
>> difficult to understand why it is not OU.
>
>There are no real entry and exit points.
>
>> There are undoubtedly other useful approaches to understanding this OU
>> device better but these come to mind.
>> 
>>                                                Ken             Keasy@aol.com
>
>Hi Ken,
>
>Thanks for the input.
>
>-- 
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 21:18:10 -0400
>From: "O'Connor" <poconnor@bciu.k12.pa.us>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: LIGHTNING
>Message-ID: <336BE3CD.1503@bciu.k12.pa.us>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>I'm just wondering if anyone else out there is wondering why lightning
>is not being harnessed for power usage.
>
>I am positively sure that we have enough technology to capture/harness
>the energy...but we aren't using it in our homes ect yet...
>
>-Shannon 
>
>========================                   
>= "Eschew Obfuscation" =
>========================
>


================================== End Part 2 ==================================

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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: permanent? magnets

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Yes, a permanent magnet not subjected to H fields above the B/H curve
demagnetization knee, or curie temperature or critical G shock, will last
forever.


At 05:53 PM 5/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I don't have any references, but I know the standard theory is, and my
>experience has been, so long as you do not introduce reverse fields large
>enough to actually start to demagnetize a magnet, a "good" magnet is not in
>any measurable way effected by use.  ie you can use it in reversible field
>configurations indefinitely without in any way "consuming" its energy.  Does
>anyone else have any other opinions?
>
>
>
>                                                                        Keasy
>
>


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 22:16:51 1997
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This is what we are building !

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To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
From: harti@bbtt.de (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: This is what we are building !
Cc: newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Hi to all,

cause I am pretty busy with other things I did not have much time
to post recently on the free-energy lists.

But I wanted to keep you all updated, what we are currently building:

It is a flux switch unit. Today we ordered the plastic revolver
chamber to hold the iron core material. Have a look at this picture.

It was drawn by Dieter Bauer and he is the one, who pushes it foward.
Here is the URL for the picture:

http://www.overunity.de/ecklin/fig15.gif

It should be a 3 dimensional side view...

I hope you can imagine how it works...

We hope, that in about 1 month we can have the first measurement results...


Please also check out:

http://www.overunity.de/ecklin/ecklin3.htm

Best regards, Stefan.

--
Hartmann Multimedia Service
Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
http://www.harti.com    Webmaster of:
www.detours.com    www.overunity.com   www.berlin-city.com
www.nylon-fetish.com 
email: harti@harti.com


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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May  3 22:40:13 1997
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Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 03:32:00 -0700
From: Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
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Epitaxy wrote:
> 
> Err.. I have a problem with: "...due to a positive voltage induced across
> the L..."
> 
> Please rephrase and elaborate.
> ...

> >L                 R
> >////--0------<><><><>----------0 ``````````
> >////  ^                          |        |
> >////  | dL/dt                V   |  P/S   |
> >////--0------------------------0 |.........

ok. While the current through L and the value of L is constant there
will be no voltage appearing across L.
if, however, the value of L changes (due to the u-no-wot going into the
u-no-where) then a voltage will appear across L of I*dL/dt. I said
'induced' because we can also think of the voltage being caused by a
magnet, magnetised by the flux of L, moving into the coil causing and
induced voltage = dPhi/dt (where Phi is the flux in the coil). The flux
in the coil changes as the rod is attracted, which will cause the
induced voltage across the terminals of the coil. 

Inductance is derive from Flux.

EMF =N*dPhi/dt = N*(dPhi/dI)*(dI/dt) = LdI/dt  

where L = N*dPhi/dI  

N is number of turns
I is current
Phi is flux in coil
EMF is induced voltage

if L itself is time variant (ie depends on time and not current, L(t))
then

EMF = d(LI)/dt = LdI/dt + IdL/dt

enuf.
--  		
Maxwell.

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At 10:37 PM 5/2/97, Epitaxy wrote:
>Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
>centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
>pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.

A pendulum like so is useful (B are bearings, rest is rigid):

 ------B------------B-----
        \          /
         \        /
          \      /
           \    /
            \  /
             \/
             xx

>
>At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
>>doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
>>friction to a mimimum - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
>>reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
>>approach.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          



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To: "O'Connor" <poconnor@bciu.k12.pa.us>
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On Sat, 3 May 1997, O'Connor wrote:

> 
> Does anyone have any opinions on telekenisis? Any unique ways of looking
> at it, or any possible ways of showing that it is a reality?
> 
> Personally, I believe in it 100%, but I don't have much logical proof
> behind it. I believe that every object contains a certain amount of
> positive nrg, and that nothing unreal exists...but I need some other
> observations and ideas. Please share whatever is on your mind.
Hi!
Actually, my theory is that telekinesis, as well as many, if not all
psionic or psychic powers *may* be possible through our minds creating or
manipulating virtual particles. Virtual particles facilitate the exchange
of energy. We all can do this to some degree, but those with the correct
neural nets can do it efficiently enough to produce semi regular results.
Just a theory, but.....
John

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Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.

At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
>doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
>friction to a mimimum - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
>reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
>approach.  


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At 01:01 PM 5/2/97 +0200, you wrote:
>Freenrgians
>
>This is to announce, specially formember of this list in France and=
 Belgium,
>the airing of our documentary about new energy and alternative science,
>saturday may 10th, 13 h 30, on the TV channel Canal Plus (in a weekly=
 series
>called L=92=9Cil du cyclone / Eye of the cyclone).
>
>The film is called =AB Ils vont sauver la planete ! =BB (They=92re going to=
 save
>the planet ! ). It features Martin Fleischmann, Jim Griggs, Frank Stenger &
>Frank Znidarsic, Hal Fox, Teruo Kawai, Reidar Finsrud, Stanley Meyer, James
>E. Bare, Gaston Naessens, Arthur C. Clarke and French researchers Jacques
>Benveniste, Joel Sternheimer, Guy Arnaud and Gilles Thuny.
>
>Thanks to every one who helped !
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Jean-Pierre Lentin
>lentin@imaginet.fr
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Pity there's not an English version and some commercial or the ABC could
air it in Australia

Geoff
http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel


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I agree to the paragraph below.

Does Greg disagree ?

At 07:17 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>But in the case of an RLC in series
>with a constant current power supply the supply voltage will have to
>increase in order for the current to remain constant as the voltage
>across the inductor increases trying to reduce the current such that the
>energy remains the same in the inductor, thus energy in the inductor
>will increase as L increases because the current has NOT changed
>(assuming the P/S has done its job) - and this extra energy has come
>from the power supply.     


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I disagree. If you look at Greg's description below, the inclined release
track is there ONLY to overcome the frictional losses of the entry track.
Greg clearly states "zero ball energy at the entry point...", also the
statement "... with the Black Box section removed..." is significant.

In Greg's device the ball does NOT suffer repulsion as it enters the
BlackBox, on the contrary, the ball is always attracted to the entry point.

The reason for the calibrated release track is simple.  If the release
track was not used and the ball was far away from the Black Box on the
level entry track only, the magnetic attraction would not be strong enough
to get the ball moving from such a distance.  Please remember that static
friction is greater than dynamic (moving) friction.  By using the inclined
release track Greg overcomes the starting friction and is able to measure
the work [W=Fd] over a large distance even if the distance [d] is is large
and [F] to small to get the ball rolling.

Please remember that if the Black Box was absent, the system of the release
and exit track would impart exactly ZERO kinetic energy to the ball at the
entry point (end of the entry track)

The dilution of the back attraction force over a large distance is what
worries me, and I dare to state that this is the only possible flaw in
Greg's analysis. (back-attraction force integrated over exit distance).

All of the other objections that people have been voicing (ie.
demagnetization of the magnets, input energy, eddy currents, etc..) are
silly, insignificant and could be all avoided if they took the time to
understand what Greg is writing.

Permanent magnets do not get demagnetized by performing work in the form of
ferrite attraction.  Demagnetization and magnet breakdown only happens if
you push them to hard (ie. excessive H field from a coil or another
stronger magnet, mechanical shock over critical G and thermal curie point).
Almost everything can be destroyed if you push it to hard, it doesn't mean
that it gets used up otherwise...





At 11:34 PM 5/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>One thing that bothers me is that Greg says the release track is ramped
>at about 5 deg - so this rig DOES have an input energy

At 10:24 AM 5/3/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote:
>>...with the "Black Box" section removed and varying the release
>>point to get the ball to just roll to the end of the 1mtr entry track
>>without dropping over the end.  This I assumed gave me as close as zero
>>ball energy at the entry point of the "Black Box" as possible.


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Hi Horace and all others interested in the "creepy attack",

   I'll be the first to admit that I have not been reading the "creepy"
posts with any regularity so I am truly jumping in where angels fear to
tread, but I will speak my piece anyway.  I agree with you that there is
a magnetostatic gradient effect (or effects).  It's also possible that
there are magnetic monopoles as Ehrenfest reported in his experiments
with making Hydrogen with a magnet. I think these effects are well worth
investigating for their basic science value. The gradient is used as a
power source in the Spence patent and I would recommend looking this up.
Apparently this device worked but self-destructed after several hours
because of electron damage to the magnets or something.
   I'm not going to dwell on theses types of effects here but on the
Hall effect and the basic nature of the physical processes we are
discussing. The Hall effect, the Corbino effect, and certain microwave
effects are nonreciprocal processes.  What this means is that the energy
conversion process is one-way.  If you take a circuit containing one of
these devices and apply an output to the input and an input to the
output the effects are not the same.  Often there is no energy coming
out the input even if energy is applied at the output.
   It was proven in the 40's and 50's that these systems could exist,
based on the work of Tellegen on gyrators. Nonreciprocal microwave
devices based on the gyromagnetic properties of ferrites were quickly
developed, and are used extensively in this region with high
efficiency.  
   It is more difficult to efficiently implement true nonreciprocal
systems at lower frequencies, with one exception, the mechanical
gyroscopic system, which I'll talk about in another post.
   It is possible to create a number of overunity generators from the
Hall and Corbino efects, but they must be built with the proper
materials to reach high efficiencies. I've suggested using Bismuth, the
original Hall effect material, in a certain way.
  
   Herbert, the difficulty with your approach as I see it (and
admittedly I see it very vaguely if at all) is that you are trying to
create a completely magnetostatic system.  You are naturally avoiding
using a power source in your proposed device to avoid any questions
about whether it is O/U or not. But a small amount of power in and a lot
of power out is better than no power in and a little power out.
  My research into nonreciprocal systems, causality, and time indicate
that a noreciprocal system must be joined with a highly resonant system
in order to create an overunity measurement in the apparatus outside. I
use the word "measurement" carefully.
  In the case of a Hall or Corbino effect device the resonant circuit
can be supplied by an oscillating DC magnetic field. To accomplish this
an inductor is wound around a permanent magnet so that the PM field is
.04 T., and an inductor is wound around the PM with a sine input such
that the combined field ranges between between 0 and .08 T. This is a
fairly small field. Use a sine wave frequency generator and a high
impedance voltage follower to drive the parallel resonant circuit
including the inductor/PM combination and a capacitor. Use a frequency
of about 10 Khz at first (depending on the magnetic material of the PM)
then pan up from there.
   Placed on the end of this inductor is a disc of pure Bismuth (the
magnetic field must be 90 degrees from the plane of the disc). You could
also try undoped arsenic antimonide (commercial magnetoresistors are
doped and have to high losses).  Bismuth is by far the easiest choice.
The disc has an electrode (preferably silver of gold, but copper's ok)
through the center, and an electrode ring aound the edge. It is
important to get good metal to metal bonding there. The central and
outer electrodes are connected through the test load. The disc is about
5-10 cm. thick.
   When the tank circuit is operated and there is an oscillating
magnetic field through the Bi disc, it generates an alternating
potential across the two electrodes, thus an alternating current in the
load. Low-voltage currents of about one A. should be possible with a
device like I describe.
   This device operates because of the third Corbino effect, which says
that when a varying magnetic field is applied to discs made of materials
with large Hall coefficients and relatively high conductivities, a
current will flow from center to periphery or the reverse.
   Note that this is a form of the Hall effect, a proven nonreciprocal
effect used to create nonreciprocal devices in the lab. The current in
the plate has no effect on the magnetic field or inductance of the
magnet. The point of this is that the current generated in the hall or
Corbino plate is NOT THE RESULT OF INDUCTION in the normal sense and has
NO LOADING of the resonant input cicuit, by the definition of a
nonreciprocal system. Thus if the input circuit has a high Q the same
current (so to speak) can be used over and over again to generate the
hall current, the only losses being the coil resistance, capacitor
leakage, and iron and hysteresis losses. Of course it is not a perfect
arrangement because of the losses, but the circuit as a whole should AT
LEAST operate a little more than 100% as a total system.
   This was the first Hall effect design I made up about 6 months ago. 
Recently I saw how you could use commercial Hall sensors, even though
the resistance is fairly high.
  This device uses a resonant circuit, a number of Hall effect plates,
and a number of powerful magnets. It simply consists of a high Q
resonant tank circuit with a goodly number (the more the better) of HE
plates connected in parallel so their total resistance is minimized.
Each HE plate has an associated powerful magnet, or they use different
poles of the same magnet. 
   Each HE plate of course also has its output voltage and these outputs
are connected together to drive a load.
  If the Q of the circuit can be made high enough, losses from the
driver will be less than the voltage or current output from the Hall
plates. Power outputs from these devices are low but they demonstrate
principles.
                             Fred

BTW I have refs to back this up if anybody's interested.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 03:36:10 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Creepy attack on the Hall effect

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Hi Horace and all others interested in the "creepy attack",

   I'll be the first to admit that I have not been reading the "creepy"
posts with any regularity so I am truly jumping in where angels fear to
tread, but I will speak my piece anyway.  I agree with you that there is
a magnetostatic gradient effect (or effects).  It's also possible that
there are magnetic monopoles as Ehrenfest reported in his experiments
with making Hydrogen with a magnet. I think these effects are well worth
investigating for their basic science value. The gradient is used as a
power source in the Spence patent and I would recommend looking this up.
Apparently this device worked but self-destructed after several hours
because of electron damage to the magnets or something.
   I'm not going to dwell on theses types of effects here but on the
Hall effect and the basic nature of the physical processes we are
discussing. The Hall effect, the Corbino effect, and certain microwave
effects are nonreciprocal processes.  What this means is that the energy
conversion process is one-way.  If you take a circuit containing one of
these devices and apply an output to the input and an input to the
output the effects are not the same.  Often there is no energy coming
out the input even if energy is applied at the output.
   It was proven in the 40's and 50's that these systems could exist,
based on the work of Tellegen on gyrators. Nonreciprocal microwave
devices based on the gyromagnetic properties of ferrites were quickly
developed, and are used extensively in this region with high
efficiency.  
   It is more difficult to efficiently implement true nonreciprocal
systems at lower frequencies, with one exception, the mechanical
gyroscopic system, which I'll talk about in another post.
   It is possible to create a number of overunity generators from the
Hall and Corbino efects, but they must be built with the proper
materials to reach high efficiencies. I've suggested using Bismuth, the
original Hall effect material, in a certain way.
  
   Herbert, the difficulty with your approach as I see it (and
admittedly I see it very vaguely if at all) is that you are trying to
create a completely magnetostatic system.  You are naturally avoiding
using a power source in your proposed device to avoid any questions
about whether it is O/U or not. But a small amount of power in and a lot
of power out is better than no power in and a little power out.
  My research into nonreciprocal systems, causality, and time indicate
that a noreciprocal system must be joined with a highly resonant system
in order to create an overunity measurement in the apparatus outside. I
use the word "measurement" carefully.
  In the case of a Hall or Corbino effect device the resonant circuit
can be supplied by an oscillating DC magnetic field. To accomplish this
an inductor is wound around a permanent magnet so that the PM field is
.04 T., and an inductor is wound around the PM with a sine input such
that the combined field ranges between between 0 and .08 T. This is a
fairly small field. Use a sine wave frequency generator and a high
impedance voltage follower to drive the parallel resonant circuit
including the inductor/PM combination and a capacitor. Use a frequency
of about 10 Khz at first (depending on the magnetic material of the PM)
then pan up from there.
   Placed on the end of this inductor is a disc of pure Bismuth (the
magnetic field must be 90 degrees from the plane of the disc). You could
also try undoped arsenic antimonide (commercial magnetoresistors are
doped and have to high losses).  Bismuth is by far the easiest choice.
The disc has an electrode (preferably silver of gold, but copper's ok)
through the center, and an electrode ring aound the edge. It is
important to get good metal to metal bonding there. The central and
outer electrodes are connected through the test load. The disc is about
5-10 cm. thick.
   When the tank circuit is operated and there is an oscillating
magnetic field through the Bi disc, it generates an alternating
potential across the two electrodes, thus an alternating current in the
load. Low-voltage currents of about one A. should be possible with a
device like I describe.
   This device operates because of the third Corbino effect, which says
that when a varying magnetic field is applied to discs made of materials
with large Hall coefficients and relatively high conductivities, a
current will flow from center to periphery or the reverse.
   Note that this is a form of the Hall effect, a proven nonreciprocal
effect used to create nonreciprocal devices in the lab. The current in
the plate has no effect on the magnetic field or inductance of the
magnet. The point of this is that the current generated in the hall or
Corbino plate is NOT THE RESULT OF INDUCTION in the normal sense and has
NO LOADING of the resonant input cicuit, by the definition of a
nonreciprocal system. Thus if the input circuit has a high Q the same
current (so to speak) can be used over and over again to generate the
hall current, the only losses being the coil resistance, capacitor
leakage, and iron and hysteresis losses. Of course it is not a perfect
arrangement because of the losses, but the circuit as a whole should AT
LEAST operate a little more than 100% as a total system.
   This was the first Hall effect design I made up about 6 months ago. 
Recently I saw how you could use commercial Hall sensors, even though
the resistance is fairly high.
  This device uses a resonant circuit, a number of Hall effect plates,
and a number of powerful magnets. It simply consists of a high Q
resonant tank circuit with a goodly number (the more the better) of HE
plates connected in parallel so their total resistance is minimized.
Each HE plate has an associated powerful magnet, or they use different
poles of the same magnet. 
   Each HE plate of course also has its output voltage and these outputs
are connected together to drive a load.
  If the Q of the circuit can be made high enough, losses from the
driver will be less than the voltage or current output from the Hall
plates. Power outputs from these devices are low but they demonstrate
principles.
                             Fred

BTW I have refs to back this up if anybody's interested.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 03:36:18 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: freenrg-digest Digest V97 #158

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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Lots of white light hits the sun and passes thru the atmosphere.  The deeper
it gets the more the blue light spreads away.  By the time it hits the
ground, the white light turns yellow.  I think everybody should drive BMWs,
and Jeeps.  I like 'em, don't you?  Make sure your trash can lids are on
tight!  Nighty-night, and have a pleasant tommarrow!!!At 06:53 PM 5/3/97
-0700, you wrote:
>freenrg-digest Digest				Volume 97 : Issue 158
>
>Today's Topics:
>	 Positive Nrg
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 21:17:54 -0400
>From: "O'Connor" <poconnor@bciu.k12.pa.us>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Positive Nrg
>Message-ID: <336BE3BD.20ED@bciu.k12.pa.us>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Does anyone have any opinions on telekenisis? Any unique ways of looking
>at it, or any possible ways of showing that it is a reality?
>
>Personally, I believe in it 100%, but I don't have much logical proof
>behind it. I believe that every object contains a certain amount of
>positive nrg, and that nothing unreal exists...but I need some other
>observations and ideas. Please share whatever is on your mind.
>
>-Shannon 
>
>"Eschew Obfuscation"
>


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 05:59:38 1997
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unssubscribeAt 07:22 PM 5/3/97 -0700, you wrote:
>freenrg-digest Digest				Volume 97 : Issue 159
>
>Today's Topics:
>	 Re: freenrg-digest Digest V97 #157
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 20:45:01 -0500
>From: jgassaway@webzone.net
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: freenrg-digest Digest V97 #157
>Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970504014501.0069cbdc@webzone.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>get me off the list1At 06:28 PM 5/3/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>freenrg-digest Digest				Volume 97 : Issue 157
>>
>>Today's Topics:
>>	 Simple OU Device
>>	 Simple Ou Device
>>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>>	 Re: Aaaa... don't slow down Earth !
>>	 Re: Looking for meter
>>	 Re: permanent? magnets
>>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>>	 The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been updated
>>	 Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>>	 Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>>	 Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>>	 Gary Magnet Motor Pix and Info
>>	 Re: Gary Magnet Motor Pix and Info
>>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>>	 Strange pattern on a glass-window
>>	 Re: Aaaa... don't slow down Earth !
>>	 coler document
>>	 Simple OU Device
>>	 Free Energy receiver
>>	 Re: coler document
>>	 This is what we are building !
>>	 Re: coler document
>>	 Re: Free Energy receiver
>>	 Re: Simple OU Device
>>	 LIGHTNING
>>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 10:24:05 +0930
>>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net,
>>        freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: Simple OU Device
>>Message-ID: <336A8CAD.2EC@microtronics.com.au>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>>HI All,
>>
>>Thanks for all the feedback.  I vaule it all.
>>
>>Here is my test setup and the results I get with my linear unit.
>>
>>
>>Test Setup:
>>===========
>>
>>The test setup is composed of 4 sections, all joined end to end and made
>>as level as possible. The release is on the right side and the exit is
>>on the left.  The sections are composed of 12mm alum "U" channel upon
>>which a 12mm steel boll rolls from right to left.
>>
>>     ......Exit......Black Box.......Entry.......Release
>>
>>1) Release section:
>> This is a 100mm section of alum 12mm alum "U" channel attached to the
>>entry track.  The release section is bent up at approx 5 deg.  A small
>>notch has been filed up the ramp as a index to assist the ball being
>>released every time at the same position.  The notch  position was
>>determined with the "Black Box" section removed and varying the release
>>point to get the ball to just roll to the end of the 1mtr entry track
>>without dropping over the end.  This I assumed gave me as close as zero
>>ball energy at the entry point of the "Black Box" as possible.
>>
>>2) Entry section:
>> This is a 1mtr long section of 12mm alum "U" channel as level as I can
>>make it.
>>
>>3) Black Box Section:
>> This unit contains magnets and more of the 12mm alum "U" channel.  The
>>entry and exit track are at the same level.  The ball is pulled up the
>>ramp by a graduated B field.
>>
>>4) Exit section:
>> This is a 1mtr long sectin of 12mm alum "U" channel as level as I can
>>make it.
>>
>>All sections are level and at the same height.
>>
>>
>>Test Results:
>>=============
>>
>>The steel ball is placed on the "calibrated" release notch and released.
>>
>>It roll down the release ramp and onto the entry track.
>>
>>As it rolls along the entry track, the ball starts to slow.
>>
>>Then it gets to with-in 75-100mm from the end of the entry track or from
>>the start of the "Black Box" section. the ball starts rolling at a
>>constant speed and slightly accelerates as it crosses over into the
>>"Black Box" section.
>>
>>It leaves the "Black Box" section showing some slight drag back with-in
>>the first 25-50mm and then happily rolls off the end of the 1 mtr exit
>>track.
>>
>>
>>Further Testing:
>>================
>>
>>I have constructed a working three ramp unit to investigate the change
>>in "Black Box" input alterations due to the influence of the exit
>>field.  The testing here was to investigate the problems in attempting
>>to close the loop.  I could not get two units oriented at right angles
>>to work due to the complexs interactions of the exit and entry fields. 
>>My idea here was to use 4 units set a right angles to each other to form
>>a square and thus close the loop.  The three unit linear model does
>>work.
>>
>>
>>Conclusions on the Linear Unit:
>>===============================
>>
>>A real energy gain is shown as well as the ability to move a mass.  The
>>energy gain seems to be around 20-30%.  Closing the loop with such a
>>model seems difficult as the frictional losses in returning the ball to
>>the enrty point would be large.
>>
>>
>>Rotary Unit:
>>============
>>
>>My current work is centered on a rotary unit, quite different to the
>>above.
>>
>>
>>Long Term Intentions:
>>=====================
>>
>>I do not intend to manuf a thing.  A license to use the technology will
>>be available to any one who wishes to use it at a VERY LOW COST.  My
>>current thinking is around $100 upfront and $1 / 1kw generation capacity
>>per unit on a decreasing sliding scale.  I believe if the technology is
>>available cheaply enough, its simpler and less costly in the long run to
>>license it than steal it.
>>
>>As to getting rich, if my shareholders do, so will I.
>>
>>
>>References:
>>===========
>>
>>US Patent 4,215,330 issued 29 July, 1980.  Check it out.  
>>
>>
>>Test Group:
>>===========
>>
>>This patent was posted to the 9 members of my test group.  While is is
>>not my device, is is close and an understanding of the patent would be
>>of benefit.  To my knowledge, 4 members have constructed actual units. 
>>I included in the group several critics to help keep us all honest.
>>
>><billb@eskimo.com>,
>><bshannon@tiac.net>,
>><catware@worldonline.nl>,       *Constructed*
>><dequickert@ucdavis.edu>,       *Constructed*
>><epitaxy@localaccess.com>,      *Constructed*
>><gwatson@microtronics.com.au>,  *Constructed*
>><harti@harti.com>,              *Working on a unit*
>><jnaudin509@aol.com>,
>><little@eden.com>,
>><mrandall@earthlink.net>,       *Constructed*
>><puthoff@aol.com>
>>
>>The group was formed to reduce list traffic and help to keep discussions
>>in control.  If you wish to jon the group and be involved in actual
>>construction and discussions please let me know.
>>
>>I should point out that the guys at Earth Tech are willing to test a
>>"closed loop unit" unit at no charge.  I have accepted.
>>
>>-- 
>>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>>                                          61 18 833 461  Mobile
>>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 11:11:17 +0930
>>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net,
>>        freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: Simple Ou Device
>>Message-ID: <336A97BD.11AE@microtronics.com.au>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>>Hi All,
>>
>>Here is the link to the Patent 4,215,330 :
>>
>>Right click on each image/page to save it to disk and then use any gif
>>viewer to view or print it.
>>
>>This is not my device, but is close enough for you to build if you want
>>to have a go and experiment.  It does work.
>>
>>http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/4215330
>>
>>-- 
>>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>>                                          61 18 833 461  Mobile
>>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 18:52:47 -0700
>>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502185246.00a5e1b4@mail.localaccess.com>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>Yes, I agree magnets do work (just like springs)... I don't think anybody
>>with a little logic could disagree with this.
>>
>>
>>The work done by the magnet is simply the amount of force exercised by the
>>magnet over the distance which this force acts on something.
>>
>>If [W] denotes work, [F] force, [m] mass, [a] acceleration, [v] velocity,
>>[d] distance traveled
>>
>>...according to the basic formula [W=fd] meaning that if a magnets attract
>>ANY mass with a force of 1 Newton over the distance of 1 meter than the
>>work done by/against the magnet will equal to 1 Joule.
>>
>>NOTE: that it doesn't matter if the attracted mass is 1 gram or 1 ton, the
>>amount of work the magnet does to attract it for over  1 meter is 1 Joule,
>>IN BOTH CASES !
>>
>>You can express the work [W] done by the magnet in variety of other ways,
>>for example [W=mad] meaning a certain mass [m] accelerating at a certain
>>rate [a] for a certain distance [d] denotes certain work done by the magnet
>>
>>... or [W=0.5mv^2] meaning that a magnet attracting certain mass [m] will
>>accelerate it to a certain velocity [v] and the expression [0.5mv^2] will
>>represent the amount of work [W] the magnet has done.
>>
>>
>>The issue whether any work has to be done AGAINST the magnet before any
>>work is done BY the magnet, is a completely different issue and very
>>dependent on how large the "box" is.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>At 10:21 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>>This started out as a preliminary stab at the effects of using Greg's 
>>>magnetic ramp as an energy source. But it ends up skirting the issue, and 
>>>becomes sort of a way of conventionally explaining what's going on, in real 
>>>shallow terms :-).
>>>
>>>First, magnets have been doing work ever since we started using them. When 
>>>you put a magnet up on the refrigerator, it does work as it pulls your hand 
>>>with it toward the metal. You do an equivalent amount of work when you 
>>>un-stick it later, but the magnet still did work. The magnet's work was 
>>>balanced by your work.
>>>
>>>Gravity also does work, no? When you climb up a flight of stairs, you do 
>>>lots of work to counter gravity. If you fall back down, gravity has done 
>>>work. The system is balanced (even if you are not).
>>>
>>>In a permanent-magnet motor, the magnets are doing work. It is balanced by 
>>>the work of the electromagnets, using electricity as their energy source.
>>>
>>>Permanent magnets are in wide use, and they are doing work. It's just that 
>>>their work is usually balanced by energies that we provide.
>>>
>>>Greg's ramp is using one form of energy (gravitational) that we usually 
>>>have to balance with our own energy, to offset another form of energy 
>>>(magnetic) that we also usually have to balance with our own efforts. No 
>>>big deal, right?
>>>
>>>Does anyone ever wonder whether we're depleting the Earth's gravitational 
>>>energy when we fall down?
>>>
>>>In the same way, we've never stopped to wonder what the *efffects* of using 
>>>magnets may be. Greg's asking a good question that maybe should be answered 
>>>for our current, "conventional" widespread use of magnets.
>>>
>>>
>>>Dan
>>>
>>>
>>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 19:05:39 -0700
>>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: Re: Aaaa... don't slow down Earth !
>>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502190537.00a5e1b4@mail.localaccess.com>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>...and the sum of earth's angular momentum + the heat radiated into space
>>after we slowed down the earth a little with our infernal device, should be
>>equal to the earth's angular momentum before we starting to perform our
>>evil deed.
>>
>>...I don't understand why any one of you would like to limit the
>>conservation of energy "generalization" ONLY to the mechanical angular
>>momentum.  Electrical energy or EM radiation like heat are as "good" forms
>>of energy as mechanical momentum.
>>
>>If these energies could, they would sue you for unfair discrimination
>>(anthropomorphically speaking...)
>>
>>P.S.
>>
>>I remember reading somewhere that the earth's rotation rate is altered by
>>man-made water reservoirs.  (ballerina effect)
>>
>>At 10:36 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Larry Wharton wrote:
>>>> No such invention can possibly work because of conservation of angular
>>>> momentum.  If the Earth's rotation slows down then the angular momentum
>>>> would decrease and that is not allowed. Only if angular momentum is
>>>> exchanged with some third body orbiting the Earth, like the Moon, such that
>>>> the total is constant could this idea work.  Through the years there have
>>>> been many schemes like this proposed and they all don't involve the Moon
>>>> and they all don't work.
>>>
>>>The moon has nothing to do with this particular invention.
>>>I will dig out some info about this device and post a 
>>>description. 
>>>
>>>For sure, angular momentum must be conserved in a closed system.
>>>But the earth-moon is not a closed system. In fact, given 
>>>an ample amount of time, the only truly closed system is
>>>the entire universe -- maybe not even that.   
>>>
>>>In this particular invention, angular momentum is transferred
>>>from the body of the earth, to an electro-magnetic field and/or  
>>>mechanical device which can do useful work on or near the earth's 
>>>surface, and then to waste heat at the surface and in the 
>>>atmosphere, and eventually radiated into space.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Robert Stirniman
>>>
>>>
>>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 19:49:11 -0700
>>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: Re: Looking for meter
>>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502194910.00a69d00@mail.localaccess.com>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>Tucker Surplus gas some 6 digit desktop DMM with 10uA DC range.  I gave
>>seen other equipment in other catalogs but don't want to go and search
>>through stack of ne right now.  If you are still unsuccessful in finding
>>what you need, I'll browse.  Let me know
>>
>>At 12:43 PM 5/2/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>>I am trying to locate a reasonably priced meter to measure very low
>>>currents (in nA) and voltages (uV).  The best I've located so far is The
>>>TENMA  AC Millivolt Meter ($175 from MCM Electronics, cat #72-450).  It has
>>>the disadvantage of being AC voltage only and analog, but goes down to a
>>>0-300 uV range, and has amplified output for an oscilloscope.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>Horace Heffner          
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 19:53:41 -0700
>>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: Re: permanent? magnets
>>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502195339.00a6bdfc@mail.localaccess.com>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>Yes, a permanent magnet not subjected to H fields above the B/H curve
>>demagnetization knee, or curie temperature or critical G shock, will last
>>forever.
>>
>>
>>At 05:53 PM 5/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>>I don't have any references, but I know the standard theory is, and my
>>>experience has been, so long as you do not introduce reverse fields large
>>>enough to actually start to demagnetize a magnet, a "good" magnet is not in
>>>any measurable way effected by use.  ie you can use it in reversible field
>>>configurations indefinitely without in any way "consuming" its energy.  Does
>>>anyone else have any other opinions?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                                                                        Keasy
>>>
>>>
>>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 21:54:16 -0700
>>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502215412.00a68180@mail.localaccess.com>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>I disagree. If you look at Greg's description below, the inclined release
>>track is there ONLY to overcome the frictional losses of the entry track.
>>Greg clearly states "zero ball energy at the entry point...", also the
>>statement "... with the Black Box section removed..." is significant.
>>
>>In Greg's device the ball does NOT suffer repulsion as it enters the
>>BlackBox, on the contrary, the ball is always attracted to the entry point.
>>
>>The reason for the calibrated release track is simple.  If the release
>>track was not used and the ball was far away from the Black Box on the
>>level entry track only, the magnetic attraction would not be strong enough
>>to get the ball moving from such a distance.  Please remember that static
>>friction is greater than dynamic (moving) friction.  By using the inclined
>>release track Greg overcomes the starting friction and is able to measure
>>the work [W=Fd] over a large distance even if the distance [d] is is large
>>and [F] to small to get the ball rolling.
>>
>>Please remember that if the Black Box was absent, the system of the release
>>and exit track would impart exactly ZERO kinetic energy to the ball at the
>>entry point (end of the entry track)
>>
>>The dilution of the back attraction force over a large distance is what
>>worries me, and I dare to state that this is the only possible flaw in
>>Greg's analysis. (back-attraction force integrated over exit distance).
>>
>>All of the other objections that people have been voicing (ie.
>>demagnetization of the magnets, input energy, eddy currents, etc..) are
>>silly, insignificant and could be all avoided if they took the time to
>>understand what Greg is writing.
>>
>>Permanent magnets do not get demagnetized by performing work in the form of
>>ferrite attraction.  Demagnetization and magnet breakdown only happens if
>>you push them to hard (ie. excessive H field from a coil or another
>>stronger magnet, mechanical shock over critical G and thermal curie point).
>>Almost everything can be destroyed if you push it to hard, it doesn't mean
>>that it gets used up otherwise...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>At 11:34 PM 5/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>>One thing that bothers me is that Greg says the release track is ramped
>>>at about 5 deg - so this rig DOES have an input energy
>>
>>At 10:24 AM 5/3/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote:
>>>>...with the "Black Box" section removed and varying the release
>>>>point to get the ball to just roll to the end of the 1mtr entry track
>>>>without dropping over the end.  This I assumed gave me as close as zero
>>>>ball energy at the entry point of the "Black Box" as possible.
>>Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:11:40 -0800
>>From: pgb@padrak.com (Patrick Bailey)
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been updated
>>Message-Id: <v02140b08af90875012c6@[205.149.162.154]>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been updated at:
>>
>>http://www.padrak.com/ine/
>>
>>Most New Data Files are at:
>>
>>http://www.padrak.com/ine/index.shtml#INE_RECENT
>>
>>-------------     ------------------------------------------------------------
>>Date Included     Additions, Expansions, or Revisions
>>-------------     ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>May   3, 1997     Added:  NEN TOC Vol. 4, No. 12, April 1997
>>                     So You Want To Be Involved In New Energy?
>>                     Calibration For Cold Fusion
>>                     Cold Fusion Bibliography Updated!
>>                     NASA Preparing For The Future
>>                     Gravitation Shielding Possible
>>                     The Nature Of The Aether
>>                     World Energy Report
>>                     Letter From Hal Puthoff (On SHARP Drive)
>>                  Added:  Proceedings of The 1996 International Conference On
>>                      New Ideas In Natural Sciences (Forward,
>>                      Conclusions, and Videotapes Available)
>>                  Updated:  Fabulous Facts File,
>>                     Websites, People, Organizations, etc.
>>                  Site Counter = 98,515
>>
>>Dr. Patrick G. Bailey
>>President, Institute for New Energy
>>http://www.padrak.com/ine/
>>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 22:24:30 -0700
>>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
>>Subject: Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502222428.00a743f8@mail.localaccess.com>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>I agree to the paragraph below.
>>
>>Does Greg disagree ?
>>
>>At 07:17 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>>But in the case of an RLC in series
>>>with a constant current power supply the supply voltage will have to
>>>increase in order for the current to remain constant as the voltage
>>>across the inductor increases trying to reduce the current such that the
>>>energy remains the same in the inductor, thus energy in the inductor
>>>will increase as L increases because the current has NOT changed
>>>(assuming the P/S has done its job) - and this extra energy has come
>>>from the power supply.     
>>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 22:31:45 -0700
>>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
>>Subject: Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502223143.00a743f8@mail.localaccess.com>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>I agree.  The voltage across the coil must increase and be positive to keep
>>the coil current constant.  That is what constant-current P/S does.  If
>>this P/S wasn't doing its job than the I would decrease as the L increased.
>>
>>The more interesting question is whether the work [W=Fd] done by the
>>inductor when attracting the ferrite is done at the expense of stored
>>electrical energy [0.5LI^2]  ?????????????
>>
>>No conservation of energy arguments allowed here ! :-)
>>
>>At 07:17 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>>The point of contention has to do with the SIGN of the voltage across
>>>the coil. The maths say it is positive. Greg Watson says it is negative
>>>- but he has not responded to that point.
>>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 22:34:22 -0700
>>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
>>Subject: Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502223421.00a743f8@mail.localaccess.com>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>Err.. I have a problem with: "...due to a positive voltage induced across
>>the L..."
>>
>>Please rephrase and elaborate.
>>...
>>
>>At 07:17 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>>In the case of a constant-voltage P/S in series with the RLC there would
>>>be no voltage change across the P/S but the current in R would drop due
>>>to a positive voltage induced across the L.
>>>
>>>
>>>L                 R 
>>>////--0------<><><><>----------0 ``````````
>>>////  ^                          |        |
>>>////  | dL/dt                V   |  P/S   |
>>>////--0------------------------0 |.........
>>>
>>>---
>>>Maxwell
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 22:37:50 -0700
>>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger@interlaced.net>
>>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502223748.00a7d2e4@mail.localaccess.com>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
>>centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
>>pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.
>>
>>At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>>
>>>OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
>>>doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
>>>friction to a mimimum - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
>>>reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
>>>approach.  
>>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 15:29:31 +0930
>>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>>Message-ID: <336AD443.2938@microtronics.com.au>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>>Epitaxy wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
>>> centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
>>> pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.
>>
>>I agree, even though I haven't seen the referenced post.
>>
>>> At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>> >
>>> >OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
>>> >doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
>>> >friction to a mimimum
>>
>>Wouldn't work.
>>
>>>> - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
>>> >reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
>>> >approach.
>>
>>Hi Guys,
>>
>>Seems I haven't received the post you refer to, anyhow the reason I use
>>a alum "U" channel for the ball to roll on is the requirement for the
>>ball to be in a balanced magnetic state if reference to the side to side
>>magnetic attraction forces exerted by the two side magnet assy.  The
>>alum channel allows for some unbalanced sideways magnetic forces to
>>exist.  To be pulled side ways off the track requires the ball to be
>>pulled up and over the side of the alum track.
>>
>>I tried tubing but found this allows side ways slop and greatly reduces
>>the graduated mag ramp forces.  For max pull into the graduated field,
>>side to side magnetic influences must be reduced to less than 5%.
>>
>>The alum channel didn't just happen. it was the best of several methods,
>>considering the job it has to do.
>>
>>-- 
>>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>>Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 23:31:33 PST
>>From: tv@juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
>>To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com
>>Cc: vortext-L@eskimo.com
>>Subject: Gary Magnet Motor Pix and Info
>>Message-ID: <19970220.233139.11894.0.tv@juno.com>
>>
>>I posted a Web page about the invention of Wesley Gary and his magnet
>>motor
>>including the missing diagrams that several of you wanted but I could not
>>attach
>>to email for some reason involving my mail server.
>>
>>The URL of the "Gary Effect" page is:
>>
>>http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4810
>>
>>Tim
>>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 01:37:30 -0700
>>From: Jerry Decker <jdecker@keelynet.com>
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: Re: Gary Magnet Motor Pix and Info
>>Message-ID: <336AF94A.7157@keelynet.com>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>>Hi Tim!
>>
>>Excellent!  Thanks, will add the URL....
>>-- 
>>               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker@keelynet.com
>>        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
>>       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
>>     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187
>>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:10:49 -0800
>>From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>>Message-Id: <v01530509af90a2b763cb@[199.237.131.243]>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>At 10:37 PM 5/2/97, Epitaxy wrote:
>>>Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
>>>centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
>>>pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.
>>
>>A pendulum like so is useful (B are bearings, rest is rigid):
>>
>> ------B------------B-----
>>        \          /
>>         \        /
>>          \      /
>>           \    /
>>            \  /
>>             \/
>>             xx
>>
>>>
>>>At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>>OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
>>>>doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
>>>>friction to a mimimum - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
>>>>reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
>>>>approach.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Horace Heffner          
>>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 17:49:31 +0930
>>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>>Message-ID: <336AF513.24C9@microtronics.com.au>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>>Horace Heffner wrote:
>>> 
>>> At 10:37 PM 5/2/97, Epitaxy wrote:
>>> >Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
>>> >centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
>>> >pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.
>>> 
>>> A pendulum like so is useful (B are bearings, rest is rigid):
>>> 
>>>  ------B------------B-----
>>>         \          /
>>>          \        /
>>>           \      /
>>>            \    /
>>>             \  /
>>>              \/
>>>              xx
>>> 
>>> >
>>> >At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
>>> >>doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
>>> >>friction to a mimimum - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
>>> >>reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
>>> >>approach.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> Horace Heffner
>>
>>Hi Guys,
>>
>>Nice pendulum idea Horace.  Sorry, but I can't use it.  Will file it for
>>future reference.
>>
>>Check out the patent below to get a idea of what is happening in the
>>"Black Box" :
>>
>>http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/4215330
>>
>>Just click on the link, it will load the first page of the patent.
>>
>>-- 
>>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 06:40:37 -0700
>>From: JohnnyFG@algonet.se (Johnny Feelgood)
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: Strange pattern on a glass-window
>>Message-Id: <199705031340.GAA15335@mx1.eskimo.com>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>I have updated my WEB-pages with some pictures showing strange
>>pattern on a glass-window that appears when they are misty...
>>Kind of reminds me about the David Hammel story.
>>exit --- I vote for a flat society - like internet!
>>mailto:JohnnyFG@algonet.se
>>http://www.algonet.se/~johnnyfg/index.htm
>>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:30:43 -0400 (EDT)
>>From: Keasy@aol.com
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: Re: Aaaa... don't slow down Earth !
>>Message-ID: <970503113042_-1031323492@emout07.mail.aol.com>
>>
>>Regarding this "don't slow down the earth!" issue everyone knows the rotation
>>rate of the earth (earth-moon system, actually) is constantly slowing down
>>because of tidal effects  --- a very small change, however.  An interesting
>>calculation shows what will eventually happen.  Results are posted at
>>http://members.aol.com/Keasy  and follow the earth/moon link.
>>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:36:05 -0700
>>From: "WESLY" <crosiar@goldrush.com>
>>To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
>>Subject: coler document
>>Message-Id: <199705031807.LAA09874@claim.goldrush.com>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>>TO ALL: Can anyone tell me where I can get the original HANS COLER DOCUMENT
>>in GERMAN?
>>THANKS WES
>>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 14:26:32 -0400 (EDT)
>>From: Keasy@aol.com
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: Simple OU Device
>>Message-ID: <970503142631_-1299795460@emout07.mail.aol.com>
>>
>>To all,
>>     This is in response to Greg's posting of his set up and testing with his
>>linear unit.
>>    Several questions/comments/suggestions:
>>     1.  How is it determined that the exit section is the same level as the
>>entry section?  This is of course critical.
>>     2.  If the magnets in the "black box" are in a configuration such that
>>the magnetic circuit can be closed to minimize effects outside the "black
>>box" volume that might be useful to consider.
>>     3.  What happens if you add a release ramp (properly set up as in #1) on
>>the left of the exit ramp and did the experiment WITH THE BLACK BOX REVERSED,
>>from left to right?  If you do this and get the same results as from right to
>>left (without touching anything else) but turning the "black box" around,
>>then things are much more interesting.  If, in addition, you measure the
>>fields at the entry point and end of exit ramp and they are on the same order
>>(in any direction) as the earth's magnetic field, then it does become
>>difficult to understand why it is not OU.
>>     There are undoubtedly other useful approaches to understanding this OU
>>device better but these come to mind.
>>
>>                                               Ken             Keasy@aol.com
>>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 21:55:42 +0200
>>From: Bushi@multinet.net.il (Lev Robert)
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: Free Energy receiver
>>Message-ID: <B0000003930@192.115.50.1>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>Hi All
>>Why should you work so hard in order to obtain free energy when there are
>>devices like the Radiant Energy. I read about it some time ago in the Tesla
>>page. There is a patent on this too from 1901 "Utilization of Radiant
>>Energy. Since the group is now fairly mature in coil design and since this
>>kind of energy generation has no moving parts perhaps the has arived to give
>>it a try. 
>>Robert
>>BUSHILEV
>>Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 14:06:07 PST
>>From: tv@juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: Re: coler document
>>Message-ID: <19970221.140924.9558.0.tv@juno.com>
>>
>>The Hans Coler document was never written in German it was a British
>>intelligence report, part of Project Paper Clip.  Some of the document
>>that it quotes however were originally in German and were translated by
>>British Intellignence.  You could inquire with the British Government
>>archives whatever it is called.
>>
>>Tim
>>
>>On Sat, 3 May 1997 11:36:05 -0700 "WESLY" <crosiar@goldrush.com> writes:
>>>TO ALL: Can anyone tell me where I can get the original HANS COLER 
>>>DOCUMENT
>>>in GERMAN?
>>>THANKS WES
>>>
>>>
>>Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:07:15 +0200
>>From: harti@bbtt.de (Stefan Hartmann)
>>To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>>Cc: newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: This is what we are building !
>>Message-Id: <199705032207.AAA03491@mail.bbtt.com>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>Hi to all,
>>
>>cause I am pretty busy with other things I did not have much time
>>to post recently on the free-energy lists.
>>
>>But I wanted to keep you all updated, what we are currently building:
>>
>>It is a flux switch unit. Today we ordered the plastic revolver
>>chamber to hold the iron core material. Have a look at this picture.
>>
>>It was drawn by Dieter Bauer and he is the one, who pushes it foward.
>>Here is the URL for the picture:
>>
>>http://www.overunity.de/ecklin/fig15.gif
>>
>>It should be a 3 dimensional side view...
>>
>>I hope you can imagine how it works...
>>
>>We hope, that in about 1 month we can have the first measurement results...
>>
>>
>>Please also check out:
>>
>>http://www.overunity.de/ecklin/ecklin3.htm
>>
>>Best regards, Stefan.
>>
>>--
>>Hartmann Multimedia Service
>>Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
>>Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
>>http://www.harti.com    Webmaster of:
>>www.detours.com    www.overunity.com   www.berlin-city.com
>>www.nylon-fetish.com 
>>email: harti@harti.com
>>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 16:50:26 -0700 (PDT)
>>From: JohnnyFG@algonet.se (Johnny Feelgood)
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: Re: coler document
>>Message-Id: <199705032350.QAA13321@mx2.eskimo.com>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>>The Hans Coler document was never written in German it was a British
>>>intelligence report, part of Project Paper Clip.  Some of the document
>>>that it quotes however were originally in German and were translated by
>>>British Intellignence.  You could inquire with the British Government
>>>archives whatever it is called.
>>
>>I have a copy of the Hans Coler report from the British Imperial War
>>museum in London. Its on my WEB-pages found thru my signature-file below.
>>exit --- I vote for a flat society - like internet!
>>mailto:JohnnyFG@algonet.se
>>http://www.algonet.se/~johnnyfg/index.htm
>>Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 09:48:14
>>From: Geoff Egel <egel@main.murray.net.au>
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: Re: Free Energy receiver
>>Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19970504094814.2b7f9cc6@main.murray.net.au>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>>At 09:55 PM 5/3/97 +0200, you wrote:
>>>Hi All
>>>Why should you work so hard in order to obtain free energy when there are
>>>devices like the Radiant Energy. I read about it some time ago in the Tesla
>>>page. There is a patent on this too from 1901 "Utilization of Radiant
>>>Energy. Since the group is now fairly mature in coil design and since this
>>>kind of energy generation has no moving parts perhaps the has arived to give
>>>it a try. 
>>>Robert
>>>BUSHILEV
>>>
>>>
>>>Correct me if I am wrong
>>
>>But I believe Tesla never actually constructed this device  but only
>>imagined it.
>>Note that this is not problem most of his inventions he conceived this way
>>and then had them constructed by his engineers and he claimed they always
>>worked.
>>
>>Geoff Egel
>>http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel 
>>Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 10:02:03 +0930
>>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device
>>Message-ID: <336BD903.1294@microtronics.com.au>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>>Keasy@aol.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> To all,
>>>      This is in response to Greg's posting of his set up and testing
with his
>>> linear unit.
>>>     Several questions/comments/suggestions:
>>>      1.  How is it determined that the exit section is the same level as the
>>> entry section?  This is of course critical.
>>
>>By sighting along the "U" channels.  Its not really critical.
>>
>>>      2.  If the magnets in the "black box" are in a configuration such that
>>> the magnetic circuit can be closed to minimize effects outside the "black
>>> box" volume that might be useful to consider.
>>
>>Very difficult.
>>
>>>      3.  What happens if you add a release ramp (properly set up as in
#1) on
>>> the left of the exit ramp and did the experiment WITH THE BLACK BOX
REVERSED,
>>> from left to right?  If you do this and get the same results as from
right to
>>> left (without touching anything else) but turning the "black box" around,
>>> then things are much more interesting.  
>>
>>Hadn't thought of that.  I have however taken it appart and put it
>>together many times in many different ways.  Still works.
>>
>>> If, in addition, you measure the
>>> fields at the entry point and end of exit ramp and they are on the same
order
>>> (in any direction) as the earth's magnetic field, then it does become
>>> difficult to understand why it is not OU.
>>
>>There are no real entry and exit points.
>>
>>> There are undoubtedly other useful approaches to understanding this OU
>>> device better but these come to mind.
>>> 
>>>                                                Ken             Keasy@aol.com
>>
>>Hi Ken,
>>
>>Thanks for the input.
>>
>>-- 
>>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 21:18:10 -0400
>>From: "O'Connor" <poconnor@bciu.k12.pa.us>
>>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>>Subject: LIGHTNING
>>Message-ID: <336BE3CD.1503@bciu.k12.pa.us>
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>>
>>I'm just wondering if anyone else out there is wondering why lightning
>>is not being harnessed for power usage.
>>
>>I am positively sure that we have enough technology to capture/harness
>>the energy...but we aren't using it in our homes ect yet...
>>
>>-Shannon 
>>
>>========================                   
>>= "Eschew Obfuscation" =
>>========================
>>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 06:21:05 1997
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I agree.  The voltage across the coil must increase and be positive to keep
the coil current constant.  That is what constant-current P/S does.  If
this P/S wasn't doing its job than the I would decrease as the L increased.

The more interesting question is whether the work [W=Fd] done by the
inductor when attracting the ferrite is done at the expense of stored
electrical energy [0.5LI^2]  ?????????????

No conservation of energy arguments allowed here ! :-)

At 07:17 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>The point of contention has to do with the SIGN of the voltage across
>the coil. The maths say it is positive. Greg Watson says it is negative
>- but he has not responded to that point.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 06:57:42 1997
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Epitaxy wrote:
> 
> Err.. I have a problem with: "...due to a positive voltage induced across
> the L..."
> 
> Please rephrase and elaborate.
> ...

> >L                 R
> >////--0------<><><><>----------0 ``````````
> >////  ^                          |        |
> >////  | dL/dt                V   |  P/S   |
> >////--0------------------------0 |.........

ok. While the current through L and the value of L is constant there
will be no voltage appearing across L.
if, however, the value of L changes (due to the u-no-wot going into the
u-no-where) then a voltage will appear across L of I*dL/dt. I said
'induced' because we can also think of the voltage being caused by a
magnet, magnetised by the flux of L, moving into the coil causing and
induced voltage = dPhi/dt (where Phi is the flux in the coil). The flux
in the coil changes as the rod is attracted, which will cause the
induced voltage across the terminals of the coil. 

Inductance is derive from Flux.

EMF =N*dPhi/dt = N*(dPhi/dI)*(dI/dt) = LdI/dt  

where L = N*dPhi/dI  

N is number of turns
I is current
Phi is flux in coil
EMF is induced voltage

if L itself is time variant (ie depends on time and not current, L(t))
then

EMF = d(LI)/dt = LdI/dt + IdL/dt

enuf.
--  		
Maxwell.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 07:07:13 1997
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 08:20:00 1997
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Hi Folks!

Thought some of you might be interested in some connections from ancient 
material that might have energy applications;

          http://www.keelynet.com/gravity/ship.htm

seeya!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker@keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 08:24:09 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Lost Technology & the Aten Band

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Hi Folks!

Thought some of you might be interested in some connections from ancient 
material that might have energy applications;

          http://www.keelynet.com/gravity/ship.htm

seeya!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker@keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 08:34:52 1997
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Re: Simple OU Device effects

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Yes, I agree magnets do work (just like springs)... I don't think anybody
with a little logic could disagree with this.


The work done by the magnet is simply the amount of force exercised by the
magnet over the distance which this force acts on something.

If [W] denotes work, [F] force, [m] mass, [a] acceleration, [v] velocity,
[d] distance traveled

...according to the basic formula [W=fd] meaning that if a magnets attract
ANY mass with a force of 1 Newton over the distance of 1 meter than the
work done by/against the magnet will equal to 1 Joule.

NOTE: that it doesn't matter if the attracted mass is 1 gram or 1 ton, the
amount of work the magnet does to attract it for over  1 meter is 1 Joule,
IN BOTH CASES !

You can express the work [W] done by the magnet in variety of other ways,
for example [W=mad] meaning a certain mass [m] accelerating at a certain
rate [a] for a certain distance [d] denotes certain work done by the magnet

... or [W=0.5mv^2] meaning that a magnet attracting certain mass [m] will
accelerate it to a certain velocity [v] and the expression [0.5mv^2] will
represent the amount of work [W] the magnet has done.


The issue whether any work has to be done AGAINST the magnet before any
work is done BY the magnet, is a completely different issue and very
dependent on how large the "box" is.




At 10:21 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>This started out as a preliminary stab at the effects of using Greg's 
>magnetic ramp as an energy source. But it ends up skirting the issue, and 
>becomes sort of a way of conventionally explaining what's going on, in real 
>shallow terms :-).
>
>First, magnets have been doing work ever since we started using them. When 
>you put a magnet up on the refrigerator, it does work as it pulls your hand 
>with it toward the metal. You do an equivalent amount of work when you 
>un-stick it later, but the magnet still did work. The magnet's work was 
>balanced by your work.
>
>Gravity also does work, no? When you climb up a flight of stairs, you do 
>lots of work to counter gravity. If you fall back down, gravity has done 
>work. The system is balanced (even if you are not).
>
>In a permanent-magnet motor, the magnets are doing work. It is balanced by 
>the work of the electromagnets, using electricity as their energy source.
>
>Permanent magnets are in wide use, and they are doing work. It's just that 
>their work is usually balanced by energies that we provide.
>
>Greg's ramp is using one form of energy (gravitational) that we usually 
>have to balance with our own energy, to offset another form of energy 
>(magnetic) that we also usually have to balance with our own efforts. No 
>big deal, right?
>
>Does anyone ever wonder whether we're depleting the Earth's gravitational 
>energy when we fall down?
>
>In the same way, we've never stopped to wonder what the *efffects* of using 
>magnets may be. Greg's asking a good question that maybe should be answered 
>for our current, "conventional" widespread use of magnets.
>
>
>Dan
>
>


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 08:53:26 1997
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 09:36:24 1997
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In my post of (late) last night I said:

> n inductor is wound around a permanent magnet so that the PM field is
> .04 T., and an inductor is wound around the PM with a sine input such
> that the combined field ranges between between 0 and .08 T. This is a
> fairly small field. Use a sine wave frequency generator and a high

THIS IS A MISPRINT! 
There is only one inductor, wound around a permanent magnet.
Sorry about the confusion...
                          Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 11:11:28 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
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In my post of (late) last night I said:

> n inductor is wound around a permanent magnet so that the PM field is
> .04 T., and an inductor is wound around the PM with a sine input such
> that the combined field ranges between between 0 and .08 T. This is a
> fairly small field. Use a sine wave frequency generator and a high

THIS IS A MISPRINT! 
There is only one inductor, wound around a permanent magnet.
Sorry about the confusion...
                          Fred


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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
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Err.. I have a problem with: "...due to a positive voltage induced across
the L..."

Please rephrase and elaborate.
...

At 07:17 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>In the case of a constant-voltage P/S in series with the RLC there would
>be no voltage change across the P/S but the current in R would drop due
>to a positive voltage induced across the L.
>
>
>L                 R 
>////--0------<><><><>----------0 ``````````
>////  ^                          |        |
>////  | dL/dt                V   |  P/S   |
>////--0------------------------0 |.........
>
>---
>Maxwell
>
>
>


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On Sat, 3 May 1997, O'Connor wrote:

> 
> Does anyone have any opinions on telekenisis? Any unique ways of looking
> at it, or any possible ways of showing that it is a reality?
> 
> Personally, I believe in it 100%, but I don't have much logical proof
> behind it. I believe that every object contains a certain amount of
> positive nrg, and that nothing unreal exists...but I need some other
> observations and ideas. Please share whatever is on your mind.
Hi!
Actually, my theory is that telekinesis, as well as many, if not all
psionic or psychic powers *may* be possible through our minds creating or
manipulating virtual particles. Virtual particles facilitate the exchange
of energy. We all can do this to some degree, but those with the correct
neural nets can do it efficiently enough to produce semi regular results.
Just a theory, but.....
John


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 14:08:28 1997
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From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705042108.RAA28800@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: Re: Positive Nrg
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 17:08:06 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.970504001704.51292B-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca> from "John R. Tooker" at May 4, 97 00:20:01 am
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We all run on electricity!  Why can't we control it to some extent?
Andrew

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, 3 May 1997, O'Connor wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Does anyone have any opinions on telekenisis? Any unique ways of looking
> > at it, or any possible ways of showing that it is a reality?
> > 
> > Personally, I believe in it 100%, but I don't have much logical proof
> > behind it. I believe that every object contains a certain amount of
> > positive nrg, and that nothing unreal exists...but I need some other
> > observations and ideas. Please share whatever is on your mind.
> Hi!
> Actually, my theory is that telekinesis, as well as many, if not all
> psionic or psychic powers *may* be possible through our minds creating or
> manipulating virtual particles. Virtual particles facilitate the exchange
> of energy. We all can do this to some degree, but those with the correct
> neural nets can do it efficiently enough to produce semi regular results.
> Just a theory, but.....
> John
> 
> 


-- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

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Science wig. sig. wrote:
> 
> We all run on electricity!  Why can't we control it to some extent?
> Andrew

We can.  You only need a little guidance on how to manipulate the
energy.

> > On Sat, 3 May 1997, O'Connor wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Does anyone have any opinions on telekenisis? Any unique ways of looking
> > > at it, or any possible ways of showing that it is a reality?
> > >
> > > Personally, I believe in it 100%, but I don't have much logical proof
> > > behind it. I believe that every object contains a certain amount of
> > > positive nrg, and that nothing unreal exists...but I need some other
> > > observations and ideas. Please share whatever is on your mind.
> > Hi!
> > Actually, my theory is that telekinesis, as well as many, if not all
> > psionic or psychic powers *may* be possible through our minds creating or
> > manipulating virtual particles. Virtual particles facilitate the exchange
> > of energy. We all can do this to some degree, but those with the correct
> > neural nets can do it efficiently enough to produce semi regular results.
> > Just a theory, but.....
> > John

-- 
In Love and Light,

Phil Gantt
http://www.netcom.com/~pgantt/intro.html

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Science wig. sig. wrote:
> 
> We all run on electricity!  Why can't we control it to some extent?
> Andrew

We can.  You only need a little guidance on how to manipulate the
energy.

> > On Sat, 3 May 1997, O'Connor wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Does anyone have any opinions on telekenisis? Any unique ways of looking
> > > at it, or any possible ways of showing that it is a reality?
> > >
> > > Personally, I believe in it 100%, but I don't have much logical proof
> > > behind it. I believe that every object contains a certain amount of
> > > positive nrg, and that nothing unreal exists...but I need some other
> > > observations and ideas. Please share whatever is on your mind.
> > Hi!
> > Actually, my theory is that telekinesis, as well as many, if not all
> > psionic or psychic powers *may* be possible through our minds creating or
> > manipulating virtual particles. Virtual particles facilitate the exchange
> > of energy. We all can do this to some degree, but those with the correct
> > neural nets can do it efficiently enough to produce semi regular results.
> > Just a theory, but.....
> > John

-- 
In Love and Light,

Phil Gantt
http://www.netcom.com/~pgantt/intro.html


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 15:40:17 1997
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>We all run on electricity!  Why can't we control it to some extent?
>Andrew
>> > Does anyone have any opinions on telekenisis? Any unique ways of looking
>> > at it, or any possible ways of showing that it is a reality?

Maybe a security function of nature itself. Only those who can use those forces
are going have access to them ...
You have to be emotionally stable to reach you mental-level.
exit --- I vote for a flat society - like internet!
mailto:JohnnyFG@algonet.se
http://www.algonet.se/~johnnyfg/index.htm

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 15:47:07 1997
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>We all run on electricity!  Why can't we control it to some extent?
>Andrew
>> > Does anyone have any opinions on telekenisis? Any unique ways of looking
>> > at it, or any possible ways of showing that it is a reality?

Maybe a security function of nature itself. Only those who can use those forces
are going have access to them ...
You have to be emotionally stable to reach you mental-level.
exit --- I vote for a flat society - like internet!
mailto:JohnnyFG@algonet.se
http://www.algonet.se/~johnnyfg/index.htm


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 16:22:54 1997
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From: mindtech@om.com.au
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 09:07:39 +1000
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>When the tank circuit is operated, and there is an oscillating
>magnetic field through the Bi disc, it generates an alternating
>potential across the two electrodes, thus an alternating current in the
>load. Low-voltage currents of about one A. should be possible with a
>device like I describe.
>

Use converging coils, one on each side. Place the Bismuth disk between two
others of slightly smaller diameter, any conductive material. Sandwich mylar
film between. Use the resulting capacitance, in series, to tune your (HV)
tank circuit. Rotate the Bismuth disk CCW between the outer two. Measure again.

>Recently I saw how you could use commercial Hall sensors, even though
>the resistance is fairly high.
>

Has anyone experimented with Pielter effect devices or solar cells under
applied fields? There is work being done at the University of NSW on
boosting the output of solar cells by placement with an electrostatic field.
It is apparently not being discussed openly, but I know results are positive.

Peter Nielsen

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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: Creepy attack on the Hall effect

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>When the tank circuit is operated, and there is an oscillating
>magnetic field through the Bi disc, it generates an alternating
>potential across the two electrodes, thus an alternating current in the
>load. Low-voltage currents of about one A. should be possible with a
>device like I describe.
>

Use converging coils, one on each side. Place the Bismuth disk between two
others of slightly smaller diameter, any conductive material. Sandwich mylar
film between. Use the resulting capacitance, in series, to tune your (HV)
tank circuit. Rotate the Bismuth disk CCW between the outer two. Measure again.

>Recently I saw how you could use commercial Hall sensors, even though
>the resistance is fairly high.
>

Has anyone experimented with Pielter effect devices or solar cells under
applied fields? There is work being done at the University of NSW on
boosting the output of solar cells by placement with an electrostatic field.
It is apparently not being discussed openly, but I know results are positive.

Peter Nielsen


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 16:56:53 1997
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 17:49:31 1997
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 18:28:44 1997
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Hello Epitaxy and all,

Epitaxy wrote

> I would prefer if the tunning fork was moving ferromagnetic cores in and
> out of air core coils, thus changing the parameter [L} inductance instead
> of changing the capacitance by moving the plates of the capacitor.  This
> would be much easier to analyze and easier to build.  HV capacitors with
> movable plates are a pain to work with and would depend on the humidity of
> air if not sealed.  Movable ferrite core seems much better to me.

in reference to my electromechanical overunity device based on
nonreciprocal principles.

   Epitaxy, I'm fully aware of the cumbersome nature of plate capacitors
and was describing a thought experiment, not a working model. I have
several designs which would be more efficient and not as difficult to
get working. 
   According to the papers on reciprocity I've been reading, for the
device to be nonreciprocal the input must be electromagnetic and the
output must be electric (non-magnetic). According to the articles, which
I'm still studying, if an electric and a magnetic transducer are
mechanically coupled the device works like a sort of gyrator, converting
a magnetic field storage into electric field storage through the
coupling. In any set of self-consistent electrical analogies, one
transducer will be seen as reciprocal and the other as anti-reciprocal.
It was proven that a combination of an antireciprocal and a reciprocal
element could be NONreciprocal, that is...a one-way system.
   I am not claiming that these systems are overunity; they are normal,
lossy electromechanical systems in that respect.  Their uniqueness comes
because changing the output loading doesn't change the state of the
inputs.
   I believe that if the nonreciprocal idea is combined with the
principle of resonance
an overunity electromechanical machine can be built.
   I have come up with several designs but the one that would be likely
to have the highest overunity performance is this:

   AN OVERUNITY ELECTROSTATIC PARAMETRIC GENERATOR

   This device borrows from the prior art of parametric electrostatic
generators. These generators usually consist of thin capacitor plates
with a rotating dielectric wedge or shield between them. As the
dielectric rotates in and out of the plates the capacitance varies which
parametrically creates a current in the resonant circuit.
   How does loading occur in this machine?
The energy needed to pull the dielectric out from between the two plates
is the same as the attractive energy of the same plates on the other
side. This is by the definition of electric force as a conservative
force, like magnetism. So there can be no loading of such a machine over
a full rotation because of electrostatic induction. At the same time the
parametric current generated at 1/2 F in the output circuit imposes a
varying voltage on the plates as they rotate, but this sine voltage
simply adds and subtracts equally from the momentum of the rotating
disc.
   It can be seen that there is no loading of the motor in these
rotational parametric generators. All the loading arises from friction,
windage, etc. One would expect that the motor would operate in a no-load
condition if the rotating dielectric sector was made thin, light and
strong, and the device was operated in a vacuum (which is desirable
because of the high voltages possible). The motor would be the the type
used in gyros (permanent magnet?) that runs in resonance off-load (In
addition I'd add a tuned circuit to the motor so that it has a high Q).
   I would also put in a second independent half-circular set of
capacitor plates situated below the first ones so that the dielectric
sector travels through both capacitors alternately. This makes sure that
parametric currents in the two separate circuits are 180 degrees out of
phase so that their effects on the shaft loading cancel.
   With proper design this machine would operate at efficiencies over
10000 percent.
I believe that the Hyde Generator was tying to do something like this
but got mixed up trying to work with both parametric and E/S inductive
processes. It is certainly possible to combine both process but not in
the same rotor at the same time, Hence the irregular output of the Hyde
generator (assuming it worked at all).
   The nonreciprocal nature of the relationship between electric field
properties and magnetic field properties allows for the generation of
energy from nothing.
                 :^) just being provocative...
                                    Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 18:29:51 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: Electromechanical Overunity

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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Hello Epitaxy and all,

Epitaxy wrote

> I would prefer if the tunning fork was moving ferromagnetic cores in and
> out of air core coils, thus changing the parameter [L} inductance instead
> of changing the capacitance by moving the plates of the capacitor.  This
> would be much easier to analyze and easier to build.  HV capacitors with
> movable plates are a pain to work with and would depend on the humidity of
> air if not sealed.  Movable ferrite core seems much better to me.

in reference to my electromechanical overunity device based on
nonreciprocal principles.

   Epitaxy, I'm fully aware of the cumbersome nature of plate capacitors
and was describing a thought experiment, not a working model. I have
several designs which would be more efficient and not as difficult to
get working. 
   According to the papers on reciprocity I've been reading, for the
device to be nonreciprocal the input must be electromagnetic and the
output must be electric (non-magnetic). According to the articles, which
I'm still studying, if an electric and a magnetic transducer are
mechanically coupled the device works like a sort of gyrator, converting
a magnetic field storage into electric field storage through the
coupling. In any set of self-consistent electrical analogies, one
transducer will be seen as reciprocal and the other as anti-reciprocal.
It was proven that a combination of an antireciprocal and a reciprocal
element could be NONreciprocal, that is...a one-way system.
   I am not claiming that these systems are overunity; they are normal,
lossy electromechanical systems in that respect.  Their uniqueness comes
because changing the output loading doesn't change the state of the
inputs.
   I believe that if the nonreciprocal idea is combined with the
principle of resonance
an overunity electromechanical machine can be built.
   I have come up with several designs but the one that would be likely
to have the highest overunity performance is this:

   AN OVERUNITY ELECTROSTATIC PARAMETRIC GENERATOR

   This device borrows from the prior art of parametric electrostatic
generators. These generators usually consist of thin capacitor plates
with a rotating dielectric wedge or shield between them. As the
dielectric rotates in and out of the plates the capacitance varies which
parametrically creates a current in the resonant circuit.
   How does loading occur in this machine?
The energy needed to pull the dielectric out from between the two plates
is the same as the attractive energy of the same plates on the other
side. This is by the definition of electric force as a conservative
force, like magnetism. So there can be no loading of such a machine over
a full rotation because of electrostatic induction. At the same time the
parametric current generated at 1/2 F in the output circuit imposes a
varying voltage on the plates as they rotate, but this sine voltage
simply adds and subtracts equally from the momentum of the rotating
disc.
   It can be seen that there is no loading of the motor in these
rotational parametric generators. All the loading arises from friction,
windage, etc. One would expect that the motor would operate in a no-load
condition if the rotating dielectric sector was made thin, light and
strong, and the device was operated in a vacuum (which is desirable
because of the high voltages possible). The motor would be the the type
used in gyros (permanent magnet?) that runs in resonance off-load (In
addition I'd add a tuned circuit to the motor so that it has a high Q).
   I would also put in a second independent half-circular set of
capacitor plates situated below the first ones so that the dielectric
sector travels through both capacitors alternately. This makes sure that
parametric currents in the two separate circuits are 180 degrees out of
phase so that their effects on the shaft loading cancel.
   With proper design this machine would operate at efficiencies over
10000 percent.
I believe that the Hyde Generator was tying to do something like this
but got mixed up trying to work with both parametric and E/S inductive
processes. It is certainly possible to combine both process but not in
the same rotor at the same time, Hence the irregular output of the Hyde
generator (assuming it worked at all).
   The nonreciprocal nature of the relationship between electric field
properties and magnetic field properties allows for the generation of
energy from nothing.
                 :^) just being provocative...
                                    Fred


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 18:32:35 1997
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Hi folks!

   On May 7 Scott little wrote:

> Horace, here's the ultimate xfmr example:  Consider a perfect toroid (Greg
> will remember this) with a uniform sheet of AC current flowing around in the
> usual direction that toroidal windings are applied.  This geometry creates
> an AC B field in the interior of the toroid but, due to perfect
> cancellations, the B is identically zero everywhere outside the toroid.  Now
> pass a turn of heavy wire through the center hole in the toroid and connect
> the free ends making a loop...POW! a big fat spark occurs as the wires touch
> and a LARGE AC current flows. (Try this yourself using the toroidal core
> from a Variac...it WORKS).

 Scott, interesting you should use this as an example because it would
not be a standard transformer, even if there were an H field outside the
toroid. The magnetic field of the central wire when the large current
flows is at right angles to the field through the toroid. There would be
a change in the permeability of the toroid as the momentary current
flowed, but for the most part this is an example of the one-way
interactions I've been talking about in my other posts.
  It would be interesting to see what effects the secondary current has
on the primary in your example.
  This reminds me of some experiments that I think Alexander Frolov was
doing with open circuited transformers. It was pretty interesting stuff
but I can't remember it too well.  Alexander, are you out there?
                                  Fred
                         Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 18:35:00 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: Toroid with center wire

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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Hi folks!

   On May 7 Scott little wrote:

> Horace, here's the ultimate xfmr example:  Consider a perfect toroid (Greg
> will remember this) with a uniform sheet of AC current flowing around in the
> usual direction that toroidal windings are applied.  This geometry creates
> an AC B field in the interior of the toroid but, due to perfect
> cancellations, the B is identically zero everywhere outside the toroid.  Now
> pass a turn of heavy wire through the center hole in the toroid and connect
> the free ends making a loop...POW! a big fat spark occurs as the wires touch
> and a LARGE AC current flows. (Try this yourself using the toroidal core
> from a Variac...it WORKS).

 Scott, interesting you should use this as an example because it would
not be a standard transformer, even if there were an H field outside the
toroid. The magnetic field of the central wire when the large current
flows is at right angles to the field through the toroid. There would be
a change in the permeability of the toroid as the momentary current
flowed, but for the most part this is an example of the one-way
interactions I've been talking about in my other posts.
  It would be interesting to see what effects the secondary current has
on the primary in your example.
  This reminds me of some experiments that I think Alexander Frolov was
doing with open circuited transformers. It was pretty interesting stuff
but I can't remember it too well.  Alexander, are you out there?
                                  Fred
                         Fred


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 18:47:00 1997
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Message: Re: freenrg-digest Digest V97 #157
Sent: Sat, May 3, 1997 6:45 PM
To: Schalk Rudy
On Server: CRSS Mail Server
Date: Sun, May 4, 1997 6:45 PM
Reason: Could not be delivered because the destination Microsoft Mail server
could not be found.

<<<<<< Attached TEXT file named "Re- freenrg-digest Digest V97 #" follows
>>>>>>
get me off the list1At 06:28 PM 5/3/97 -0700, you wrote:
>freenrg-digest Digest				Volume 97 : Issue 157
>
>Today's Topics:
>	 Simple OU Device
>	 Simple Ou Device
>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>	 Re: Aaaa... don't slow down Earth !
>	 Re: Looking for meter
>	 Re: permanent? magnets
>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>	 The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been updated
>	 Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>	 Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>	 Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>	 Gary Magnet Motor Pix and Info
>	 Re: Gary Magnet Motor Pix and Info
>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>	 Re: Simple OU Device effects
>	 Strange pattern on a glass-window
>	 Re: Aaaa... don't slow down Earth !
>	 coler document
>	 Simple OU Device
>	 Free Energy receiver
>	 Re: coler document
>	 This is what we are building !
>	 Re: coler document
>	 Re: Free Energy receiver
>	 Re: Simple OU Device
>	 LIGHTNING
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 10:24:05 +0930
>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net,
>        freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Simple OU Device
>Message-ID: <336A8CAD.2EC@microtronics.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>HI All,
>
>Thanks for all the feedback.  I vaule it all.
>
>Here is my test setup and the results I get with my linear unit.
>
>
>Test Setup:
>===========
>
>The test setup is composed of 4 sections, all joined end to end and made
>as level as possible. The release is on the right side and the exit is
>on the left.  The sections are composed of 12mm alum "U" channel upon
>which a 12mm steel boll rolls from right to left.
>
>     ......Exit......Black Box.......Entry.......Release
>
>1) Release section:
> This is a 100mm section of alum 12mm alum "U" channel attached to the
>entry track.  The release section is bent up at approx 5 deg.  A small
>notch has been filed up the ramp as a index to assist the ball being
>released every time at the same position.  The notch  position was
>determined with the "Black Box" section removed and varying the release
>point to get the ball to just roll to the end of the 1mtr entry track
>without dropping over the end.  This I assumed gave me as close as zero
>ball energy at the entry point of the "Black Box" as possible.
>
>2) Entry section:
> This is a 1mtr long section of 12mm alum "U" channel as level as I can
>make it.
>
>3) Black Box Section:
> This unit contains magnets and more of the 12mm alum "U" channel.  The
>entry and exit track are at the same level.  The ball is pulled up the
>ramp by a graduated B field.
>
>4) Exit section:
> This is a 1mtr long sectin of 12mm alum "U" channel as level as I can
>make it.
>
>All sections are level and at the same height.
>
>
>Test Results:
>=============
>
>The steel ball is placed on the "calibrated" release notch and released.
>
>It roll down the release ramp and onto the entry track.
>
>As it rolls along the entry track, the ball starts to slow.
>
>Then it gets to with-in 75-100mm from the end of the entry track or from
>the start of the "Black Box" section. the ball starts rolling at a
>constant speed and slightly accelerates as it crosses over into the
>"Black Box" section.
>
>It leaves the "Black Box" section showing some slight drag back with-in
>the first 25-50mm and then happily rolls off the end of the 1 mtr exit
>track.
>
>
>Further Testing:
>================
>
>I have constructed a working three ramp unit to investigate the change
>in "Black Box" input alterations due to the influence of the exit
>field.  The testing here was to investigate the problems in attempting
>to close the loop.  I could not get two units oriented at right angles
>to work due to the complexs interactions of the exit and entry fields. 
>My idea here was to use 4 units set a right angles to each other to form
>a square and thus close the loop.  The three unit linear model does
>work.
>
>
>Conclusions on the Linear Unit:
>===============================
>
>A real energy gain is shown as well as the ability to move a mass.  The
>energy gain seems to be around 20-30%.  Closing the loop with such a
>model seems difficult as the frictional losses in returning the ball to
>the enrty point would be large.
>
>
>Rotary Unit:
>============
>
>My current work is centered on a rotary unit, quite different to the
>above.
>
>
>Long Term Intentions:
>=====================
>
>I do not intend to manuf a thing.  A license to use the technology will
>be available to any one who wishes to use it at a VERY LOW COST.  My
>current thinking is around $100 upfront and $1 / 1kw generation capacity
>per unit on a decreasing sliding scale.  I believe if the technology is
>available cheaply enough, its simpler and less costly in the long run to
>license it than steal it.
>
>As to getting rich, if my shareholders do, so will I.
>
>
>References:
>===========
>
>US Patent 4,215,330 issued 29 July, 1980.  Check it out.  
>
>
>Test Group:
>===========
>
>This patent was posted to the 9 members of my test group.  While is is
>not my device, is is close and an understanding of the patent would be
>of benefit.  To my knowledge, 4 members have constructed actual units. 
>I included in the group several critics to help keep us all honest.
>
><billb@eskimo.com>,
><bshannon@tiac.net>,
><catware@worldonline.nl>,       *Constructed*
><dequickert@ucdavis.edu>,       *Constructed*
><epitaxy@localaccess.com>,      *Constructed*
><gwatson@microtronics.com.au>,  *Constructed*
><harti@harti.com>,              *Working on a unit*
><jnaudin509@aol.com>,
><little@eden.com>,
><mrandall@earthlink.net>,       *Constructed*
><puthoff@aol.com>
>
>The group was formed to reduce list traffic and help to keep discussions
>in control.  If you wish to jon the group and be involved in actual
>construction and discussions please let me know.
>
>I should point out that the guys at Earth Tech are willing to test a
>"closed loop unit" unit at no charge.  I have accepted.
>
>-- 
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>                                          61 18 833 461  Mobile
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 11:11:17 +0930
>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net,
>        freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Simple Ou Device
>Message-ID: <336A97BD.11AE@microtronics.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Hi All,
>
>Here is the link to the Patent 4,215,330 :
>
>Right click on each image/page to save it to disk and then use any gif
>viewer to view or print it.
>
>This is not my device, but is close enough for you to build if you want
>to have a go and experiment.  It does work.
>
>http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/4215330
>
>-- 
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>                                          61 18 833 461  Mobile
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 18:52:47 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502185246.00a5e1b4@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Yes, I agree magnets do work (just like springs)... I don't think anybody
>with a little logic could disagree with this.
>
>
>The work done by the magnet is simply the amount of force exercised by the
>magnet over the distance which this force acts on something.
>
>If [W] denotes work, [F] force, [m] mass, [a] acceleration, [v] velocity,
>[d] distance traveled
>
>...according to the basic formula [W=fd] meaning that if a magnets attract
>ANY mass with a force of 1 Newton over the distance of 1 meter than the
>work done by/against the magnet will equal to 1 Joule.
>
>NOTE: that it doesn't matter if the attracted mass is 1 gram or 1 ton, the
>amount of work the magnet does to attract it for over  1 meter is 1 Joule,
>IN BOTH CASES !
>
>You can express the work [W] done by the magnet in variety of other ways,
>for example [W=mad] meaning a certain mass [m] accelerating at a certain
>rate [a] for a certain distance [d] denotes certain work done by the magnet
>
>... or [W=0.5mv^2] meaning that a magnet attracting certain mass [m] will
>accelerate it to a certain velocity [v] and the expression [0.5mv^2] will
>represent the amount of work [W] the magnet has done.
>
>
>The issue whether any work has to be done AGAINST the magnet before any
>work is done BY the magnet, is a completely different issue and very
>dependent on how large the "box" is.
>
>
>
>
>At 10:21 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>This started out as a preliminary stab at the effects of using Greg's 
>>magnetic ramp as an energy source. But it ends up skirting the issue, and 
>>becomes sort of a way of conventionally explaining what's going on, in real 
>>shallow terms :-).
>>
>>First, magnets have been doing work ever since we started using them. When 
>>you put a magnet up on the refrigerator, it does work as it pulls your hand 
>>with it toward the metal. You do an equivalent amount of work when you 
>>un-stick it later, but the magnet still did work. The magnet's work was 
>>balanced by your work.
>>
>>Gravity also does work, no? When you climb up a flight of stairs, you do 
>>lots of work to counter gravity. If you fall back down, gravity has done 
>>work. The system is balanced (even if you are not).
>>
>>In a permanent-magnet motor, the magnets are doing work. It is balanced by 
>>the work of the electromagnets, using electricity as their energy source.
>>
>>Permanent magnets are in wide use, and they are doing work. It's just that 
>>their work is usually balanced by energies that we provide.
>>
>>Greg's ramp is using one form of energy (gravitational) that we usually 
>>have to balance with our own energy, to offset another form of energy 
>>(magnetic) that we also usually have to balance with our own efforts. No 
>>big deal, right?
>>
>>Does anyone ever wonder whether we're depleting the Earth's gravitational 
>>energy when we fall down?
>>
>>In the same way, we've never stopped to wonder what the *efffects* of using 
>>magnets may be. Greg's asking a good question that maybe should be answered 
>>for our current, "conventional" widespread use of magnets.
>>
>>
>>Dan
>>
>>
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 19:05:39 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Aaaa... don't slow down Earth !
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502190537.00a5e1b4@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>...and the sum of earth's angular momentum + the heat radiated into space
>after we slowed down the earth a little with our infernal device, should be
>equal to the earth's angular momentum before we starting to perform our
>evil deed.
>
>...I don't understand why any one of you would like to limit the
>conservation of energy "generalization" ONLY to the mechanical angular
>momentum.  Electrical energy or EM radiation like heat are as "good" forms
>of energy as mechanical momentum.
>
>If these energies could, they would sue you for unfair discrimination
>(anthropomorphically speaking...)
>
>P.S.
>
>I remember reading somewhere that the earth's rotation rate is altered by
>man-made water reservoirs.  (ballerina effect)
>
>At 10:36 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>Larry Wharton wrote:
>>> No such invention can possibly work because of conservation of angular
>>> momentum.  If the Earth's rotation slows down then the angular momentum
>>> would decrease and that is not allowed. Only if angular momentum is
>>> exchanged with some third body orbiting the Earth, like the Moon, such that
>>> the total is constant could this idea work.  Through the years there have
>>> been many schemes like this proposed and they all don't involve the Moon
>>> and they all don't work.
>>
>>The moon has nothing to do with this particular invention.
>>I will dig out some info about this device and post a 
>>description. 
>>
>>For sure, angular momentum must be conserved in a closed system.
>>But the earth-moon is not a closed system. In fact, given 
>>an ample amount of time, the only truly closed system is
>>the entire universe -- maybe not even that.   
>>
>>In this particular invention, angular momentum is transferred
>>from the body of the earth, to an electro-magnetic field and/or  
>>mechanical device which can do useful work on or near the earth's 
>>surface, and then to waste heat at the surface and in the 
>>atmosphere, and eventually radiated into space.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Robert Stirniman
>>
>>
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 19:49:11 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Looking for meter
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502194910.00a69d00@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Tucker Surplus gas some 6 digit desktop DMM with 10uA DC range.  I gave
>seen other equipment in other catalogs but don't want to go and search
>through stack of ne right now.  If you are still unsuccessful in finding
>what you need, I'll browse.  Let me know
>
>At 12:43 PM 5/2/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>I am trying to locate a reasonably priced meter to measure very low
>>currents (in nA) and voltages (uV).  The best I've located so far is The
>>TENMA  AC Millivolt Meter ($175 from MCM Electronics, cat #72-450).  It has
>>the disadvantage of being AC voltage only and analog, but goes down to a
>>0-300 uV range, and has amplified output for an oscilloscope.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Horace Heffner          
>>
>>
>>
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 19:53:41 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: permanent? magnets
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502195339.00a6bdfc@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Yes, a permanent magnet not subjected to H fields above the B/H curve
>demagnetization knee, or curie temperature or critical G shock, will last
>forever.
>
>
>At 05:53 PM 5/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>I don't have any references, but I know the standard theory is, and my
>>experience has been, so long as you do not introduce reverse fields large
>>enough to actually start to demagnetize a magnet, a "good" magnet is not in
>>any measurable way effected by use.  ie you can use it in reversible field
>>configurations indefinitely without in any way "consuming" its energy.  Does
>>anyone else have any other opinions?
>>
>>
>>
>>                                                                       
Keasy
>>
>>
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 21:54:16 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502215412.00a68180@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>I disagree. If you look at Greg's description below, the inclined release
>track is there ONLY to overcome the frictional losses of the entry track.
>Greg clearly states "zero ball energy at the entry point...", also the
>statement "... with the Black Box section removed..." is significant.
>
>In Greg's device the ball does NOT suffer repulsion as it enters the
>BlackBox, on the contrary, the ball is always attracted to the entry point.
>
>The reason for the calibrated release track is simple.  If the release
>track was not used and the ball was far away from the Black Box on the
>level entry track only, the magnetic attraction would not be strong enough
>to get the ball moving from such a distance.  Please remember that static
>friction is greater than dynamic (moving) friction.  By using the inclined
>release track Greg overcomes the starting friction and is able to measure
>the work [W=Fd] over a large distance even if the distance [d] is is large
>and [F] to small to get the ball rolling.
>
>Please remember that if the Black Box was absent, the system of the release
>and exit track would impart exactly ZERO kinetic energy to the ball at the
>entry point (end of the entry track)
>
>The dilution of the back attraction force over a large distance is what
>worries me, and I dare to state that this is the only possible flaw in
>Greg's analysis. (back-attraction force integrated over exit distance).
>
>All of the other objections that people have been voicing (ie.
>demagnetization of the magnets, input energy, eddy currents, etc..) are
>silly, insignificant and could be all avoided if they took the time to
>understand what Greg is writing.
>
>Permanent magnets do not get demagnetized by performing work in the form of
>ferrite attraction.  Demagnetization and magnet breakdown only happens if
>you push them to hard (ie. excessive H field from a coil or another
>stronger magnet, mechanical shock over critical G and thermal curie point).
>Almost everything can be destroyed if you push it to hard, it doesn't mean
>that it gets used up otherwise...
>
>
>
>
>
>At 11:34 PM 5/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>One thing that bothers me is that Greg says the release track is ramped
>>at about 5 deg - so this rig DOES have an input energy
>
>At 10:24 AM 5/3/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote:
>>>...with the "Black Box" section removed and varying the release
>>>point to get the ball to just roll to the end of the 1mtr entry track
>>>without dropping over the end.  This I assumed gave me as close as zero
>>>ball energy at the entry point of the "Black Box" as possible.
>Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:11:40 -0800
>From: pgb@padrak.com (Patrick Bailey)
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been updated
>Message-Id: <v02140b08af90875012c6@[205.149.162.154]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been updated at:
>
>http://www.padrak.com/ine/
>
>Most New Data Files are at:
>
>http://www.padrak.com/ine/index.shtml#INE_RECENT
>
>-------------    
------------------------------------------------------------
>Date Included     Additions, Expansions, or Revisions
>-------------    
------------------------------------------------------------
>
>May   3, 1997     Added:  NEN TOC Vol. 4, No. 12, April 1997
>                     So You Want To Be Involved In New Energy?
>                     Calibration For Cold Fusion
>                     Cold Fusion Bibliography Updated!
>                     NASA Preparing For The Future
>                     Gravitation Shielding Possible
>                     The Nature Of The Aether
>                     World Energy Report
>                     Letter From Hal Puthoff (On SHARP Drive)
>                  Added:  Proceedings of The 1996 International Conference On
>                      New Ideas In Natural Sciences (Forward,
>                      Conclusions, and Videotapes Available)
>                  Updated:  Fabulous Facts File,
>                     Websites, People, Organizations, etc.
>                  Site Counter = 98,515
>
>Dr. Patrick G. Bailey
>President, Institute for New Energy
>http://www.padrak.com/ine/
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 22:24:30 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502222428.00a743f8@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>I agree to the paragraph below.
>
>Does Greg disagree ?
>
>At 07:17 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>But in the case of an RLC in series
>>with a constant current power supply the supply voltage will have to
>>increase in order for the current to remain constant as the voltage
>>across the inductor increases trying to reduce the current such that the
>>energy remains the same in the inductor, thus energy in the inductor
>>will increase as L increases because the current has NOT changed
>>(assuming the P/S has done its job) - and this extra energy has come
>>from the power supply.     
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 22:31:45 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502223143.00a743f8@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>I agree.  The voltage across the coil must increase and be positive to keep
>the coil current constant.  That is what constant-current P/S does.  If
>this P/S wasn't doing its job than the I would decrease as the L increased.
>
>The more interesting question is whether the work [W=Fd] done by the
>inductor when attracting the ferrite is done at the expense of stored
>electrical energy [0.5LI^2]  ?????????????
>
>No conservation of energy arguments allowed here ! :-)
>
>At 07:17 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>The point of contention has to do with the SIGN of the voltage across
>>the coil. The maths say it is positive. Greg Watson says it is negative
>>- but he has not responded to that point.
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 22:34:22 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Maxwell: 0.5LI^2 or not ?
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502223421.00a743f8@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Err.. I have a problem with: "...due to a positive voltage induced across
>the L..."
>
>Please rephrase and elaborate.
>...
>
>At 07:17 AM 5/2/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>In the case of a constant-voltage P/S in series with the RLC there would
>>be no voltage change across the P/S but the current in R would drop due
>>to a positive voltage induced across the L.
>>
>>
>>L                 R 
>>////--0------<><><><>----------0 ``````````
>>////  ^                          |        |
>>////  | dL/dt                V   |  P/S   |
>>////--0------------------------0 |.........
>>
>>---
>>Maxwell
>>
>>
>>
>Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 22:37:50 -0700
>From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, "Francis J. Stenger" <fstenger@interlaced.net>
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970502223748.00a7d2e4@mail.localaccess.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
>centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
>pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.
>
>At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
>>doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
>>friction to a mimimum - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
>>reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
>>approach.  
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 15:29:31 +0930
>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>Message-ID: <336AD443.2938@microtronics.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Epitaxy wrote:
>> 
>> Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
>> centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
>> pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.
>
>I agree, even though I haven't seen the referenced post.
>
>> At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>> >
>> >OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
>> >doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
>> >friction to a mimimum
>
>Wouldn't work.
>
>>> - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
>> >reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
>> >approach.
>
>Hi Guys,
>
>Seems I haven't received the post you refer to, anyhow the reason I use
>a alum "U" channel for the ball to roll on is the requirement for the
>ball to be in a balanced magnetic state if reference to the side to side
>magnetic attraction forces exerted by the two side magnet assy.  The
>alum channel allows for some unbalanced sideways magnetic forces to
>exist.  To be pulled side ways off the track requires the ball to be
>pulled up and over the side of the alum track.
>
>I tried tubing but found this allows side ways slop and greatly reduces
>the graduated mag ramp forces.  For max pull into the graduated field,
>side to side magnetic influences must be reduced to less than 5%.
>
>The alum channel didn't just happen. it was the best of several methods,
>considering the job it has to do.
>
>-- 
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 23:31:33 PST
>From: tv@juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
>To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com
>Cc: vortext-L@eskimo.com
>Subject: Gary Magnet Motor Pix and Info
>Message-ID: <19970220.233139.11894.0.tv@juno.com>
>
>I posted a Web page about the invention of Wesley Gary and his magnet
>motor
>including the missing diagrams that several of you wanted but I could not
>attach
>to email for some reason involving my mail server.
>
>The URL of the "Gary Effect" page is:
>
>http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4810
>
>Tim
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 01:37:30 -0700
>From: Jerry Decker <jdecker@keelynet.com>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Gary Magnet Motor Pix and Info
>Message-ID: <336AF94A.7157@keelynet.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Hi Tim!
>
>Excellent!  Thanks, will add the URL....
>-- 
>               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker@keelynet.com
>        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
>       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
>     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187
>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 00:10:49 -0800
>From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>Message-Id: <v01530509af90a2b763cb@[199.237.131.243]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>At 10:37 PM 5/2/97, Epitaxy wrote:
>>Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the ferrite
>>centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
>>pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.
>
>A pendulum like so is useful (B are bearings, rest is rigid):
>
> ------B------------B-----
>        \          /
>         \        /
>          \      /
>           \    /
>            \  /
>             \/
>             xx
>
>>
>>At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>>
>>>OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
>>>doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
>>>friction to a mimimum - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
>>>reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
>>>approach.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 17:49:31 +0930
>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device effects
>Message-ID: <336AF513.24C9@microtronics.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>> 
>> At 10:37 PM 5/2/97, Epitaxy wrote:
>> >Yup, the pendulum presents an engineering problem, with keeping the
ferrite
>> >centered exactly between the track magnets.  The long pendulums arm and
>> >pivot is just not able to withstand the side-to-side forces.
>> 
>> A pendulum like so is useful (B are bearings, rest is rigid):
>> 
>>  ------B------------B-----
>>         \          /
>>          \        /
>>           \      /
>>            \    /
>>             \  /
>>              \/
>>              xx
>> 
>> >
>> >At 01:23 AM 5/3/97 -0400, you wrote:
>> >>
>> >>OK, I see I still don't understand the details of his rig.  If I were
>> >>doing this type of experiment, I would use a pendulum rig to reduce
>> >>friction to a mimimum - but that's old news and Greg probably has good
>> >>reasons for these track models.  It just seems a rather high-friction
>> >>approach.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Horace Heffner
>
>Hi Guys,
>
>Nice pendulum idea Horace.  Sorry, but I can't use it.  Will file it for
>future reference.
>
>Check out the patent below to get a idea of what is happening in the
>"Black Box" :
>
>http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/4215330
>
>Just click on the link, it will load the first page of the patent.
>
>-- 
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 06:40:37 -0700
>From: JohnnyFG@algonet.se (Johnny Feelgood)
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Strange pattern on a glass-window
>Message-Id: <199705031340.GAA15335@mx1.eskimo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>I have updated my WEB-pages with some pictures showing strange
>pattern on a glass-window that appears when they are misty...
>Kind of reminds me about the David Hammel story.
>exit --- I vote for a flat society - like internet!
>mailto:JohnnyFG@algonet.se
>http://www.algonet.se/~johnnyfg/index.htm
>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:30:43 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Keasy@aol.com
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Aaaa... don't slow down Earth !
>Message-ID: <970503113042_-1031323492@emout07.mail.aol.com>
>
>Regarding this "don't slow down the earth!" issue everyone knows the rotation
>rate of the earth (earth-moon system, actually) is constantly slowing down
>because of tidal effects  --- a very small change, however.  An interesting
>calculation shows what will eventually happen.  Results are posted at
>http://members.aol.com/Keasy  and follow the earth/moon link.
>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:36:05 -0700
>From: "WESLY" <crosiar@goldrush.com>
>To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
>Subject: coler document
>Message-Id: <199705031807.LAA09874@claim.goldrush.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>TO ALL: Can anyone tell me where I can get the original HANS COLER DOCUMENT
>in GERMAN?
>THANKS WES
>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 14:26:32 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Keasy@aol.com
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Simple OU Device
>Message-ID: <970503142631_-1299795460@emout07.mail.aol.com>
>
>To all,
>     This is in response to Greg's posting of his set up and testing with his
>linear unit.
>    Several questions/comments/suggestions:
>     1.  How is it determined that the exit section is the same level as the
>entry section?  This is of course critical.
>     2.  If the magnets in the "black box" are in a configuration such that
>the magnetic circuit can be closed to minimize effects outside the "black
>box" volume that might be useful to consider.
>     3.  What happens if you add a release ramp (properly set up as in #1) on
>the left of the exit ramp and did the experiment WITH THE BLACK BOX REVERSED,
>from left to right?  If you do this and get the same results as from right to
>left (without touching anything else) but turning the "black box" around,
>then things are much more interesting.  If, in addition, you measure the
>fields at the entry point and end of exit ramp and they are on the same order
>(in any direction) as the earth's magnetic field, then it does become
>difficult to understand why it is not OU.
>     There are undoubtedly other useful approaches to understanding this OU
>device better but these come to mind.
>
>                                               Ken             Keasy@aol.com
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 21:55:42 +0200
>From: Bushi@multinet.net.il (Lev Robert)
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Free Energy receiver
>Message-ID: <B0000003930@192.115.50.1>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Hi All
>Why should you work so hard in order to obtain free energy when there are
>devices like the Radiant Energy. I read about it some time ago in the Tesla
>page. There is a patent on this too from 1901 "Utilization of Radiant
>Energy. Since the group is now fairly mature in coil design and since this
>kind of energy generation has no moving parts perhaps the has arived to give
>it a try. 
>Robert
>BUSHILEV
>Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 14:06:07 PST
>From: tv@juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: coler document
>Message-ID: <19970221.140924.9558.0.tv@juno.com>
>
>The Hans Coler document was never written in German it was a British
>intelligence report, part of Project Paper Clip.  Some of the document
>that it quotes however were originally in German and were translated by
>British Intellignence.  You could inquire with the British Government
>archives whatever it is called.
>
>Tim
>
>On Sat, 3 May 1997 11:36:05 -0700 "WESLY" <crosiar@goldrush.com> writes:
>>TO ALL: Can anyone tell me where I can get the original HANS COLER 
>>DOCUMENT
>>in GERMAN?
>>THANKS WES
>>
>>
>Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 00:07:15 +0200
>From: harti@bbtt.de (Stefan Hartmann)
>To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Cc: newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: This is what we are building !
>Message-Id: <199705032207.AAA03491@mail.bbtt.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>Hi to all,
>
>cause I am pretty busy with other things I did not have much time
>to post recently on the free-energy lists.
>
>But I wanted to keep you all updated, what we are currently building:
>
>It is a flux switch unit. Today we ordered the plastic revolver
>chamber to hold the iron core material. Have a look at this picture.
>
>It was drawn by Dieter Bauer and he is the one, who pushes it foward.
>Here is the URL for the picture:
>
>http://www.overunity.de/ecklin/fig15.gif
>
>It should be a 3 dimensional side view...
>
>I hope you can imagine how it works...
>
>We hope, that in about 1 month we can have the first measurement results...
>
>
>Please also check out:
>
>http://www.overunity.de/ecklin/ecklin3.htm
>
>Best regards, Stefan.
>
>--
>Hartmann Multimedia Service
>Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
>Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
>http://www.harti.com    Webmaster of:
>www.detours.com    www.overunity.com   www.berlin-city.com
>www.nylon-fetish.com 
>email: harti@harti.com
>Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 16:50:26 -0700 (PDT)
>From: JohnnyFG@algonet.se (Johnny Feelgood)
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: coler document
>Message-Id: <199705032350.QAA13321@mx2.eskimo.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>>The Hans Coler document was never written in German it was a British
>>intelligence report, part of Project Paper Clip.  Some of the document
>>that it quotes however were originally in German and were translated by
>>British Intellignence.  You could inquire with the British Government
>>archives whatever it is called.
>
>I have a copy of the Hans Coler report from the British Imperial War
>museum in London. Its on my WEB-pages found thru my signature-file below.
>exit --- I vote for a flat society - like internet!
>mailto:JohnnyFG@algonet.se
>http://www.algonet.se/~johnnyfg/index.htm
>Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 09:48:14
>From: Geoff Egel <egel@main.murray.net.au>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Free Energy receiver
>Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19970504094814.2b7f9cc6@main.murray.net.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>At 09:55 PM 5/3/97 +0200, you wrote:
>>Hi All
>>Why should you work so hard in order to obtain free energy when there are
>>devices like the Radiant Energy. I read about it some time ago in the Tesla
>>page. There is a patent on this too from 1901 "Utilization of Radiant
>>Energy. Since the group is now fairly mature in coil design and since this
>>kind of energy generation has no moving parts perhaps the has arived to give
>>it a try. 
>>Robert
>>BUSHILEV
>>
>>
>>Correct me if I am wrong
>
>But I believe Tesla never actually constructed this device  but only
>imagined it.
>Note that this is not problem most of his inventions he conceived this way
>and then had them constructed by his engineers and he claimed they always
>worked.
>
>Geoff Egel
>http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel 
>Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 10:02:03 +0930
>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: Re: Simple OU Device
>Message-ID: <336BD903.1294@microtronics.com.au>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Keasy@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> To all,
>>      This is in response to Greg's posting of his set up and testing with
his
>> linear unit.
>>     Several questions/comments/suggestions:
>>      1.  How is it determined that the exit section is the same level as
the
>> entry section?  This is of course critical.
>
>By sighting along the "U" channels.  Its not really critical.
>
>>      2.  If the magnets in the "black box" are in a configuration such that
>> the magnetic circuit can be closed to minimize effects outside the "black
>> box" volume that might be useful to consider.
>
>Very difficult.
>
>>      3.  What happens if you add a release ramp (properly set up as in #1)
on
>> the left of the exit ramp and did the experiment WITH THE BLACK BOX
REVERSED,
>> from left to right?  If you do this and get the same results as from right
to
>> left (without touching anything else) but turning the "black box" around,
>> then things are much more interesting.  
>
>Hadn't thought of that.  I have however taken it appart and put it
>together many times in many different ways.  Still works.
>
>> If, in addition, you measure the
>> fields at the entry point and end of exit ramp and they are on the same
order
>> (in any direction) as the earth's magnetic field, then it does become
>> difficult to understand why it is not OU.
>
>There are no real entry and exit points.
>
>> There are undoubtedly other useful approaches to understanding this OU
>> device better but these come to mind.
>> 
>>                                                Ken            
Keasy@aol.com
>
>Hi Ken,
>
>Thanks for the input.
>
>-- 
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 21:18:10 -0400
>From: "O'Connor" <poconnor@bciu.k12.pa.us>
>To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: LIGHTNING
>Message-ID: <336BE3CD.1503@bciu.k12.pa.us>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>I'm just wondering if anyone else out there is wondering why lightning
>is not being harnessed for power usage.
>
>I am positively sure that we have enough technology to capture/harness
>the energy...but we aren't using it in our homes ect yet...
>
>-Shannon 
>
>========================                   
>= "Eschew Obfuscation" =
>========================
>


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 18:54:54 1997
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Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 11:12:39 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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Subject: Re: Electromechanical Overunity
References: <336D0038.73A8@mail.halcyon.com>
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Fred B. Epps wrote:
> 
>    I am not claiming that these systems are overunity; they are normal,
> lossy electromechanical systems in that respect.  Their uniqueness comes
> because changing the output loading doesn't change the state of the
> inputs.

Hi Fred,

If loading on the output (drawing varying amounts of power) has NO
effect on the input (doesn't change the loading on the energy source
driving the input and the device in total), they you have broken the
link between cause and effect and it's may be a way to OU.

What examples of one way systems do you have in stock?

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

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--------------1ED97BF77454
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Hi All,

I have attached the some data on the patent 4,215,330.

Here is more data on my "Black Box".

The length of the ramp is 250mm.  
The lift at the end is 30mm.  
There are two 300mm long side magnet assy.
The ball rolls on 12mm wide, 12mm high, 10mm inside alum "U" channel. 
The ball is a 12mm dia chrome plated steel.

Unlike the patent 4,215,330, my ball always is in contact with the
track.

I use multiple magnets, but not as the patent shows.

My exit is very different.  Its the exit where its all at.  Side to side
balancing of the magnetic forces is critical.  The ball must always stay
balanced or on the "Neutral Line" as Wesley Gray would say.

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 21:17:12 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: Electromechanical Overunity

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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Hi Greg and all,

You said,

> If loading on the output (drawing varying amounts of power) has NO
> effect on the input (doesn't change the loading on the energy source
> driving the input and the device in total), they you have broken the
> link between cause and effect and it's may be a way to OU.
> 
> What examples of one way systems do you have in stock?

At this point, passive one-way systems consist of:

1) gyroscopes- high-efficiency because of use of low-friction bearings.
2) hall effect gyrators -low efficiency because of resistance in
semiconductors.
3) microwave nonreciprocal phase-shifters- high efficiency because of
high resonance of ferrites at their gyromagnetic frequency.
4) mechanical couplings of an electromagnetic and an electrostatic
transducer- moderate efficiency because of losses in each transducer.

   "To grasp the fundamental significance of nonreciprocal passive
fourpoles which we shall now discuss, let us start with an exemplifying
stipulation that sounds at first like utter nonsense, or at least like a
contradiction of terms, namely: Is it possible to have a passive
unilateral "transformer" that (1) sees always the same input impedance
irrespective of the load and (2) passes no energy in the reverse
direction?  Such a unidirectional or one-way device would eliminate all
reaction from the secondary or load circuit into the primary circuit,
would eliminate the need for isolating amplifiers (as for instance,
cathode followers) and would permit a fundamental extension of passive
circuit design heretofore reserved for active elements.  Now, we are not
concerned with wishful thinking here.  Rather, we shall show later that
such fourpoles can exist with certain anisotropic materials..."
("Essentials Of Dielectromagnetic Engineering", Schlicke)
   The anisotropic materials referred to here are ferrites. 
Interesting, huh?  

   I would add to the list of nonreciprocal (NR) devices the
magnetocapacitor that was the main component of the Hendershot device. I
believe that the Hyde generator and the Testatika machine may use these
principles as well. 

   It has been proven by those who prove these things (the first two
refs) that a one-way system must include either a static magnetic field
or a mechanical coupling (such as the gyro or transducer combinations).

   At this point it's just an intuition, but I think that combining a
resonant system such as a tank circuit or a smoothly rotating body with
this type of device is what will make the whole thing work.

   I'll close with a quote from a book written before it was proven that
NR systems could exist:

   "..If the reciprocity conditions are not satisfied, the mathematical
description will imply sources and/or sinks of energy in the coupling
field that can lead to nonphysical results." (Electromechanical
Dynamics, Woodson)

Refs:
"Violation Of The Reciprocity Theorem In Linear Passive
Electromechanical Systems"
by Edwin McMillan, Jour. Acous. Soc. Am. (18), 344 (1946)
"Coordinates And The Reciprocal Theorem In Electromechanical Systems" 
by John W. Miles, Jour. Acous. Soc. Am. (19), 910 (1947)
"The Elements Of Nonreciprocal Microwave Devices"
by C. Lester Hogan, Proc. IRE, p. 1345, Oct. 1956
"Electromechanical One-way Systems"
by Hideya Gamo, J. Acous. Soc. Japan (10), 65 (1954)
"Some Aspects Of Onsager's Theory Of Reciprocal Relations In
Irreversible Processes"
by H.B.G. Casimir, Nuovo Cimento Suppl. (6), 227 (1949)
"Reciprocal Relations In Irreversible Processes I,II"
by Lars Onsager, Phys. Rev. (37), 405 (1931), and (38), 2265 (1931)
"Hall Effect Modulators And Gyrators"
by W.P Mason, W.H. Hewitt, Jour. Appl. Phys. (24), 166 (1953)
"A New Approach To The Dynamics Of Systems With Gyroscopic Coupling
Terms"
by A. Bloch, Phil. Mag., (7) 35, 305 (May 1944)
"Electromechanical Dynamics, I" (p.77-79) by Herbert Woodson, John
Wiley, 1968
"Essentials Of Dielectromagnetic Engineering" (p.202-215)
 by H. M. Schlicke, John Wiley, 1961
"Solid State Magnetic And Dielectric Devices" (p. 501-511) 
by H.W. Katz, John Wiley, 1959


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 21:17:26 1997
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Hi Greg and all,

You said,

> If loading on the output (drawing varying amounts of power) has NO
> effect on the input (doesn't change the loading on the energy source
> driving the input and the device in total), they you have broken the
> link between cause and effect and it's may be a way to OU.
> 
> What examples of one way systems do you have in stock?

At this point, passive one-way systems consist of:

1) gyroscopes- high-efficiency because of use of low-friction bearings.
2) hall effect gyrators -low efficiency because of resistance in
semiconductors.
3) microwave nonreciprocal phase-shifters- high efficiency because of
high resonance of ferrites at their gyromagnetic frequency.
4) mechanical couplings of an electromagnetic and an electrostatic
transducer- moderate efficiency because of losses in each transducer.

   "To grasp the fundamental significance of nonreciprocal passive
fourpoles which we shall now discuss, let us start with an exemplifying
stipulation that sounds at first like utter nonsense, or at least like a
contradiction of terms, namely: Is it possible to have a passive
unilateral "transformer" that (1) sees always the same input impedance
irrespective of the load and (2) passes no energy in the reverse
direction?  Such a unidirectional or one-way device would eliminate all
reaction from the secondary or load circuit into the primary circuit,
would eliminate the need for isolating amplifiers (as for instance,
cathode followers) and would permit a fundamental extension of passive
circuit design heretofore reserved for active elements.  Now, we are not
concerned with wishful thinking here.  Rather, we shall show later that
such fourpoles can exist with certain anisotropic materials..."
("Essentials Of Dielectromagnetic Engineering", Schlicke)
   The anisotropic materials referred to here are ferrites. 
Interesting, huh?  

   I would add to the list of nonreciprocal (NR) devices the
magnetocapacitor that was the main component of the Hendershot device. I
believe that the Hyde generator and the Testatika machine may use these
principles as well. 

   It has been proven by those who prove these things (the first two
refs) that a one-way system must include either a static magnetic field
or a mechanical coupling (such as the gyro or transducer combinations).

   At this point it's just an intuition, but I think that combining a
resonant system such as a tank circuit or a smoothly rotating body with
this type of device is what will make the whole thing work.

   I'll close with a quote from a book written before it was proven that
NR systems could exist:

   "..If the reciprocity conditions are not satisfied, the mathematical
description will imply sources and/or sinks of energy in the coupling
field that can lead to nonphysical results." (Electromechanical
Dynamics, Woodson)

Refs:
"Violation Of The Reciprocity Theorem In Linear Passive
Electromechanical Systems"
by Edwin McMillan, Jour. Acous. Soc. Am. (18), 344 (1946)
"Coordinates And The Reciprocal Theorem In Electromechanical Systems" 
by John W. Miles, Jour. Acous. Soc. Am. (19), 910 (1947)
"The Elements Of Nonreciprocal Microwave Devices"
by C. Lester Hogan, Proc. IRE, p. 1345, Oct. 1956
"Electromechanical One-way Systems"
by Hideya Gamo, J. Acous. Soc. Japan (10), 65 (1954)
"Some Aspects Of Onsager's Theory Of Reciprocal Relations In
Irreversible Processes"
by H.B.G. Casimir, Nuovo Cimento Suppl. (6), 227 (1949)
"Reciprocal Relations In Irreversible Processes I,II"
by Lars Onsager, Phys. Rev. (37), 405 (1931), and (38), 2265 (1931)
"Hall Effect Modulators And Gyrators"
by W.P Mason, W.H. Hewitt, Jour. Appl. Phys. (24), 166 (1953)
"A New Approach To The Dynamics Of Systems With Gyroscopic Coupling
Terms"
by A. Bloch, Phil. Mag., (7) 35, 305 (May 1944)
"Electromechanical Dynamics, I" (p.77-79) by Herbert Woodson, John
Wiley, 1968
"Essentials Of Dielectromagnetic Engineering" (p.202-215)
 by H. M. Schlicke, John Wiley, 1961
"Solid State Magnetic And Dielectric Devices" (p. 501-511) 
by H.W. Katz, John Wiley, 1959

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 22:23:24 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Photocells, Peltier effect and applied fields

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 18:28:48 -0700
From: "Fred B. Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>
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Hi Peter and all,

Peter said

> Has anyone experimented with Pielter effect devices or solar cells under
> applied fields? There is work being done at the University of NSW on
> boosting the output of solar cells by placement with an electrostatic field.
> It is apparently not being discussed openly, but I know results are positive.

This sounds like the gadget that Harold Aspden and a guy named Strachan
patented a while back (don't have the #).  It was a thermoelectric pile
consisting of aluminum plates separated by dielectric layers.  A small
AC current flowed through the layers.  Without the AC current the device
was a very inefficient converter of heat into electricity, with the
current the efficiency was around 80% as I remember.
  Someone might know more about this one... I have an article or two
about it I can dig up if anyone's interested.
                              Fred


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 22:28:02 1997
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Hi Peter and all,

Peter said

> Has anyone experimented with Pielter effect devices or solar cells under
> applied fields? There is work being done at the University of NSW on
> boosting the output of solar cells by placement with an electrostatic field.
> It is apparently not being discussed openly, but I know results are positive.

This sounds like the gadget that Harold Aspden and a guy named Strachan
patented a while back (don't have the #).  It was a thermoelectric pile
consisting of aluminum plates separated by dielectric layers.  A small
AC current flowed through the layers.  Without the AC current the device
was a very inefficient converter of heat into electricity, with the
current the efficiency was around 80% as I remember.
  Someone might know more about this one... I have an article or two
about it I can dig up if anyone's interested.
                              Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 22:49:50 1997
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 23:07:26 1997
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Hello, Horace, Frank, and all,

In discussing how to measure the electric field around a rotating
magnet, Frank said

> The most you can do is try to detect the electric field - but the easy
> way to do this is to probe the rim and the axis with sliding
> contacts.  There is a tiny electrostatic field around the magnet you
> could try to detect - but I guess this would not convince anyone that
> the field rotates.  A "E" pickup capacitor on one end of a coax line
> with the FET at a remote spot might work.

   Thought I'd bring this article to your attention. As far as I know,
this is the most sensitive test so far performed on the moving vs.
nonmoving lines controversy. Their conclusion: "we have searched in vain
for such an effect and conclude that if the magnetic field lines are
moved at all by the rotation of the magnet about its axis they are
dragged with a coefficient less than 1.4 X 10-4".

"Spinning Magnet's And Jehle's Model Of The Electron"
by D.F. Bartlett, etc., Physical Review D (16), 12, p.3459 (15 Dec 1977)

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 23:13:51 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
electric field around Homopolar motor.

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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Hello, Horace, Frank, and all,

In discussing how to measure the electric field around a rotating
magnet, Frank said

> The most you can do is try to detect the electric field - but the easy
> way to do this is to probe the rim and the axis with sliding
> contacts.  There is a tiny electrostatic field around the magnet you
> could try to detect - but I guess this would not convince anyone that
> the field rotates.  A "E" pickup capacitor on one end of a coax line
> with the FET at a remote spot might work.

   Thought I'd bring this article to your attention. As far as I know,
this is the most sensitive test so far performed on the moving vs.
nonmoving lines controversy. Their conclusion: "we have searched in vain
for such an effect and conclude that if the magnetic field lines are
moved at all by the rotation of the magnet about its axis they are
dragged with a coefficient less than 1.4 X 10-4".

"Spinning Magnet's And Jehle's Model Of The Electron"
by D.F. Bartlett, etc., Physical Review D (16), 12, p.3459 (15 Dec 1977)


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May  4 23:40:59 1997
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 00:17:19 1997
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Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 16:40:52
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Geoff Egel <egel@main.murray.net.au>
Subject: Re:Wanted details on the Smith Coil or antenna ,bifilar coils
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At 06:28 PM 5/4/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi to all
>
>I am currently doing some experimental work with coils.
I have heard of the canadian smith coil can some one please tell me how they
were constructed  and used and other additional info would be help.
>
>I also need construction details for cadacus coils I think that's how you
spell it
and any revelant info as well

Ditto for bifiliar winding as well

Thanking you in advance
Geoff

http:/www2.murray.net.au/users/egel

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 00:18:02 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re:Wanted details on the Smith Coil or antenna ,bifilar coils

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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From: Geoff Egel <egel@main.murray.net.au>
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At 06:28 PM 5/4/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi to all
>
>I am currently doing some experimental work with coils.
I have heard of the canadian smith coil can some one please tell me how they
were constructed  and used and other additional info would be help.
>
>I also need construction details for cadacus coils I think that's how you
spell it
and any revelant info as well

Ditto for bifiliar winding as well

Thanking you in advance
Geoff

http:/www2.murray.net.au/users/egel


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 03:03:40 1997
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 03:18:27 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 06:11:41 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970505061140_1785639347@emout04.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
cc: dansway@pacbell.net, jdecker@keelynet.com
Subject: The David Hamel Scalar Generator
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Hi All,

Dan LaRochelle had recently visited David Hamel in Canada and he sent to me
some interesting informations about the David Hamel Scalar Generator.

You will find some schemes of this device at :

   http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/hamscgen.htm

I hope that this information will interest you,

Sincerely,

Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 04:01:51 1997
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Message-ID: <336DBB1B.3213@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 20:18:59 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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Subject: Simple Ou Device
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------48E0555B187D
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Hi All,

I have attached the data on the patent 4,215,330 for reference.

Here is more data on my "Black Box".

The length of the ramp is 250mm.  
The lift at the end is 30mm.  
There are two 300mm long side magnet assy.
The ball rolls on 12mm wide, 12mm high, 10mm inside alum "U" channel. 
The ball is a 12mm dia chrome plated steel.

Unlike the patent 4,215,330, my ball is always in contact with the
track.

I use multiple magnets, but not as the patent shows.

My method of generation the graduated B field for the ramp and exit is
very different.  Its the exit where its all at.  Side to side balancing
of the magnetic forces is critical.  The ball must always stay balanced
or on the "Neutral Line" as Wesley Gray would say.

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

--------------48E0555B187D
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 07:03:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA03198; Mon, 5 May 1997 06:54:26 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 06:54:26 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <336E106D.6DD4@tiac.net>
Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 09:53:01 -0700
From: Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
Reply-To: bshannon@tiac.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: poconnor@bciu.k12.pa.us
CC: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: LIGHTNING
References: <970503111849_-97920586@emout11.mail.aol.com> <336BE3CD.1503@bciu.k12.pa.us>
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O'Connor wrote:
> 
> I'm just wondering if anyone else out there is wondering why lightning
> is not being harnessed for power usage.
> 
> I am positively sure that we have enough technology to capture/harness
> the energy...but we aren't using it in our homes ect yet...
> 
> -Shannon

I'm not quite as sure as you are on this.  Exactly what types of
conductors would you use to withstand the bolt?

And then, how you you store the energy?  What make and model capacitors
could survive in this type of application?

Once we had the charge collected (assuming the collector survived the
strike, and some form of technology could store the energy) how would
the energy be converted into a practical form?

Some sort of AC inverters?  What switching devices could possibly
withstand the voltages found in a lightning bolt?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 07:10:15 1997
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Message-ID: <336E1372.60A2@tiac.net>
Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 10:05:54 -0700
From: Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Creepy attack on the Hall effect
References: <336C2568.3F2A@mail.halcyon.com>
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Fred B. Epps wrote:

<snip>
 
>    Herbert, the difficulty with your approach as I see it (and
> admittedly I see it very vaguely if at all) is that you are trying to
> create a completely magnetostatic system.  You are naturally avoiding
> using a power source in your proposed device to avoid any questions
> about whether it is O/U or not. But a small amount of power in and a lot
> of power out is better than no power in and a little power out.

<snip>

I'd have to agree here, regretfully.

There are designs for devices with no power input, and a small output
power, but these draw very little attention as compared to other designs
which have an external input energy source.

Oddly, this is true even if the output energe is less than the input
energy!

Any hope for decent output energy levels, regardless of the actual
efficiency, is apparently still more 'interesting' than infinite
efficiency at low delivered energy levels.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 08:51:26 1997
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Message: electric field around Homopolar motor.
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Message: The David Hamel Scalar Generator
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 09:56:28 1997
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Message-Id: <336DD985.4A89@mail.halcyon.com>
Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 05:58:45 -0700
From: "Fred B. Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>
Organization: Pegasus Products
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Cc: wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov
Subject: Conservation laws-- proof impossible?
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Good morning Larry and all!

Larry Wharton said:


> A "CLOSE THE LOOP" demo would be nice but the work is still of great
> interest without it.  The linear model testing is very significant and it
> could be that Greg has made a major discovery. My guess for the source of
> the energy is conversion of thermal energy into magnetic energy and then
> into mechanical energy.  In a previous posting I showed that the power
> density for magnetic interactions, S , was given by:
> 
>  S = d(mu)/dt H dot H
> 
> with  B = mu H .  This result comes from standard E&M theory and I think
> that it is remarkable that standard theory gives an energy conservation
> equation with a non-zero source term.  A proof of conservation of energy is
> only possible under certain circumstances such as:
> 
>  mu = constant (the linear region - then  d(mu)/dt = 0 )
>  H applied only in one direction.
>  In more than one dimension mu is isotropic.

   Larry, I am very interested in rerreading your other post on this
subject.  Could you resend it to me? 
   The subject is of natural interest to me. I have been working with
Jean-Louis Naudin on parametric machines where mu varies with time to
create energy out of random thermal vibrations in the output circuit,
and the energy required to change mu is less than the energy added to
the circuit by the change.
   I am also interested in microwave phase shifters that are one-way
systems.  These use a ferrite material with a directionally anisotropic
mu to make a nonreciprocal system, a system where energy can only move
in one direction.  These systems may be in violation of conservation
laws. 
   I would appreciate any textbook references, journal articles, etc. on
the proof that "a conservation of energy law is only possible under
certain circumstances..." 
In the meantime I will do a search of my own. 
                                Thanks in advance, Larry!
                                  Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 10:30:15 1997
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Message-ID: <336E3E2B.5230@tiac.net>
Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 13:08:11 -0700
From: Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: dansway@pacbell.net
Subject: Re: The David Hamel Scalar Generator
References: <970505061140_1785639347@emout04.mail.aol.com>
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JNaudin509@aol.com wrote:
 
> Hi All,
> 
> Dan LaRochelle had recently visited David Hamel in Canada and he sent to me
> some interesting informations about the David Hamel Scalar Generator.
> 
> You will find some schemes of this device at :
> 
>    http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/hamscgen.htm
> 
> I hope that this information will interest you,
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )

Interesting device.  Where are the south poles of the ring magnets? 
These do not appear to be shown.

As the cam rotates the rings, where and how is any magnetic flux being
canceled?

I beleive (not knowing the full details of the mangets poles) that this
device will simply distort flux, rather than cause magnetic flux to
undergo actual vector superposition as in a bifilar coil.

If this is the case, by what process are 'scalar' effects being
produced?

A question on the 'fogged' of 'double exposed' pictures: was any attempt
made to duplicate these effects with another camera and film by Dan
LaRochelle?

Has this device been evalutaed by any 'known' scalar detector designs?

Is there any consensus on Benini's gate devices here?  From the
freenrg-l message traffic, I beleive that there may have been a
consensus that the device is fully conservative, with a small replusion
over a large area at the input, etc.

Does anyone have anything that directly addresses this issue with the
Bedini gate device?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 10:32:53 1997
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Bob Shannon and O'connor wrote:


> > I am positively sure that we have enough technology to capture/harness
> > the energy...but we aren't using it in our homes ect yet...
> > 
> > -Shannon
> 
> I'm not quite as sure as you are on this.  Exactly what types of
> conductors would you use to withstand the bolt?
> 
> And then, how you you store the energy?  What make and model capacitors
> could survive in this type of application?
> 
> Once we had the charge collected (assuming the collector survived the
> strike, and some form of technology could store the energy) how would
> the energy be converted into a practical form?
> 
> Some sort of AC inverters?  What switching devices could possibly
> withstand the voltages found in a lightning bolt?

   Since here I am in ensconced in my armchair, with a dearth of
technical knowledge on the subject, I am in a perfect position to
speculate on ways this could be done.
   First my lightning system would convert the lightning into other
forms of energy at the point of contact so that some of the force was
dissipated in the conversion process.
   You have to speak of a collector before anything else.  This
discussion so far implies that lightning is easy to get, but no one is
going to build a huge generating station unless lightning is available
on demand.
   Soo-- cover an area around the lightning to ground channel with a
metallic sheet and charge it to high voltage BELOW ground. The potential
lightning will "see" this area the same as it would a very high building
because the work needed for it to cross the potential difference is much
less.
   In the middle of your lightning attractor you have a tall, totally
smooth copper rod about 8 feet across. This must project high enough
over the collector that discharges will only go to the rod.  This huge
rod passes underground into a very large tank about a third full of
water.  The lightning is made to pass through the water on its way to
ground. The longitudinal current and thermal dissipation effects combine
to create a wall of intensely hot steam which then goes to turbines.
BTW, "Ground" is an extensive network of very thick copper cables spread
over a large area in intimate contact with the Earth.   
   The whole thing sounds like an amazing opportunity for the government
to create a boondoggle.
   THe interesting part for me is the lightning collector.  Is it
possible that a lower energy form of this could attract microdischarges
or air electricity?
                        from The Federal Lightning Project..to you,
                              Fred

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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Conservation laws-- proof impossible?

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Good morning Larry and all!

Larry Wharton said:


> A "CLOSE THE LOOP" demo would be nice but the work is still of great
> interest without it.  The linear model testing is very significant and it
> could be that Greg has made a major discovery. My guess for the source of
> the energy is conversion of thermal energy into magnetic energy and then
> into mechanical energy.  In a previous posting I showed that the power
> density for magnetic interactions, S , was given by:
> 
>  S = d(mu)/dt H dot H
> 
> with  B = mu H .  This result comes from standard E&M theory and I think
> that it is remarkable that standard theory gives an energy conservation
> equation with a non-zero source term.  A proof of conservation of energy is
> only possible under certain circumstances such as:
> 
>  mu = constant (the linear region - then  d(mu)/dt = 0 )
>  H applied only in one direction.
>  In more than one dimension mu is isotropic.

   Larry, I am very interested in rerreading your other post on this
subject.  Could you resend it to me? 
   The subject is of natural interest to me. I have been working with
Jean-Louis Naudin on parametric machines where mu varies with time to
create energy out of random thermal vibrations in the output circuit,
and the energy required to change mu is less than the energy added to
the circuit by the change.
   I am also interested in microwave phase shifters that are one-way
systems.  These use a ferrite material with a directionally anisotropic
mu to make a nonreciprocal system, a system where energy can only move
in one direction.  These systems may be in violation of conservation
laws. 
   I would appreciate any textbook references, journal articles, etc. on
the proof that "a conservation of energy law is only possible under
certain circumstances..." 
In the meantime I will do a search of my own. 
                                Thanks in advance, Larry!
                                  Fred


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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
re: LIGHTNING!

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Bob Shannon and O'connor wrote:


> > I am positively sure that we have enough technology to capture/harness
> > the energy...but we aren't using it in our homes ect yet...
> > 
> > -Shannon
> 
> I'm not quite as sure as you are on this.  Exactly what types of
> conductors would you use to withstand the bolt?
> 
> And then, how you you store the energy?  What make and model capacitors
> could survive in this type of application?
> 
> Once we had the charge collected (assuming the collector survived the
> strike, and some form of technology could store the energy) how would
> the energy be converted into a practical form?
> 
> Some sort of AC inverters?  What switching devices could possibly
> withstand the voltages found in a lightning bolt?

   Since here I am in ensconced in my armchair, with a dearth of
technical knowledge on the subject, I am in a perfect position to
speculate on ways this could be done.
   First my lightning system would convert the lightning into other
forms of energy at the point of contact so that some of the force was
dissipated in the conversion process.
   You have to speak of a collector before anything else.  This
discussion so far implies that lightning is easy to get, but no one is
going to build a huge generating station unless lightning is available
on demand.
   Soo-- cover an area around the lightning to ground channel with a
metallic sheet and charge it to high voltage BELOW ground. The potential
lightning will "see" this area the same as it would a very high building
because the work needed for it to cross the potential difference is much
less.
   In the middle of your lightning attractor you have a tall, totally
smooth copper rod about 8 feet across. This must project high enough
over the collector that discharges will only go to the rod.  This huge
rod passes underground into a very large tank about a third full of
water.  The lightning is made to pass through the water on its way to
ground. The longitudinal current and thermal dissipation effects combine
to create a wall of intensely hot steam which then goes to turbines.
BTW, "Ground" is an extensive network of very thick copper cables spread
over a large area in intimate contact with the Earth.   
   The whole thing sounds like an amazing opportunity for the government
to create a boondoggle.
   THe interesting part for me is the lightning collector.  Is it
possible that a lower energy form of this could attract microdischarges
or air electricity?
                        from The Federal Lightning Project..to you,
                              Fred


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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re; John Hutchison

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Hi all,

   Having met John Hutchison I can say from my own perception John is
absolutely incapable of creating a deliberate fraud. He is an
otherworldly type who is more interested in the phenomena at hand than
getting any gain from it.  We had a hard time keeping him focussed on
ways to market one of his inventions. He seems perpetually surprised at
the attention that this video has gotten him.  If it's all a front then
I am a much poorer judge of character than I think I am.
                   For what it's worth,
                   Fred


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 12:21:36 1997
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Hi all,

   Having met John Hutchison I can say from my own perception John is
absolutely incapable of creating a deliberate fraud. He is an
otherworldly type who is more interested in the phenomena at hand than
getting any gain from it.  We had a hard time keeping him focussed on
ways to market one of his inventions. He seems perpetually surprised at
the attention that this video has gotten him.  If it's all a front then
I am a much poorer judge of character than I think I am.
                   For what it's worth,
                   Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 13:21:17 1997
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From: Peter Jason Aldo <pa920493@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
To: "Fred B. Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>
Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Photocells, Peltier effect and applied fields
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On Sun, 4 May 1997, Fred B. Epps wrote:

> Hi Peter and all,
> 
> Peter said
> 
> > Has anyone experimented with Pielter effect devices or solar cells under
> > applied fields? There is work being done at the University of NSW on
> > boosting the output of solar cells by placement with an electrostatic field.
> > It is apparently not being discussed openly, but I know results are positive.
> 
> This sounds like the gadget that Harold Aspden and a guy named Strachan
> patented a while back (don't have the #).  It was a thermoelectric pile
> consisting of aluminum plates separated by dielectric layers.  A small
> AC current flowed through the layers.  Without the AC current the device
> was a very inefficient converter of heat into electricity, with the
> current the efficiency was around 80% as I remember.
>   Someone might know more about this one... I have an article or two
> about it I can dig up if anyone's interested.
>                               Fred
> 
> 
Fred, 
     I would be very interested in any information you might have
regarding this patent. I have been keeping an eye open for a long time for
devices that convert low- grade heat into electricity efficiently. Coupled
with a heat pump with a C.O.P. of over 1, such a configuration may be
over-unity.

                                             Pete (different than above)                        
 Pete Aldo                                       
 56 Central Ave.
 Athens, Ohio 45701
 614- 594-3651

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 13:22:21 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: Photocells, Peltier effect and applied fields

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On Sun, 4 May 1997, Fred B. Epps wrote:

> Hi Peter and all,
> 
> Peter said
> 
> > Has anyone experimented with Pielter effect devices or solar cells under
> > applied fields? There is work being done at the University of NSW on
> > boosting the output of solar cells by placement with an electrostatic field.
> > It is apparently not being discussed openly, but I know results are positive.
> 
> This sounds like the gadget that Harold Aspden and a guy named Strachan
> patented a while back (don't have the #).  It was a thermoelectric pile
> consisting of aluminum plates separated by dielectric layers.  A small
> AC current flowed through the layers.  Without the AC current the device
> was a very inefficient converter of heat into electricity, with the
> current the efficiency was around 80% as I remember.
>   Someone might know more about this one... I have an article or two
> about it I can dig up if anyone's interested.
>                               Fred
> 
> 
Fred, 
     I would be very interested in any information you might have
regarding this patent. I have been keeping an eye open for a long time for
devices that convert low- grade heat into electricity efficiently. Coupled
with a heat pump with a C.O.P. of over 1, such a configuration may be
over-unity.

                                             Pete (different than above)                        
 Pete Aldo                                       
 56 Central Ave.
 Athens, Ohio 45701
 614- 594-3651


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 13:34:06 1997
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From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705052026.QAA07309@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: Re: Positive Nrg
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 16:26:20 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <336D0C78.1115@ix.netcom.com> from "Philip R. Gantt" at May 4, 97 03:23:52 pm
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In what way can you teach (me/anyone) to control it?
Andrew

> 
> Science wig. sig. wrote:
> > 
> > We all run on electricity!  Why can't we control it to some extent?
> > Andrew
> 
> We can.  You only need a little guidance on how to manipulate the
> energy.
> 
> > > On Sat, 3 May 1997, O'Connor wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone have any opinions on telekenisis? Any unique ways of looking
> > > > at it, or any possible ways of showing that it is a reality?
> > > >
> > > > Personally, I believe in it 100%, but I don't have much logical proof
> > > > behind it. I believe that every object contains a certain amount of
> > > > positive nrg, and that nothing unreal exists...but I need some other
> > > > observations and ideas. Please share whatever is on your mind.
> > > Hi!
> > > Actually, my theory is that telekinesis, as well as many, if not all
> > > psionic or psychic powers *may* be possible through our minds creating or
> > > manipulating virtual particles. Virtual particles facilitate the exchange
> > > of energy. We all can do this to some degree, but those with the correct
> > > neural nets can do it efficiently enough to produce semi regular results.
> > > Just a theory, but.....
> > > John
> 
> -- 
> In Love and Light,
> 
> Phil Gantt
> http://www.netcom.com/~pgantt/intro.html
> 
> 


-- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 16:34:08 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <336DE032.2B42@mail.halcyon.com> from "Fred B. Epps" at May 5, 97 06:27:15 am
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But, if you use the high voltage, you lose energy as well as gain.  My
idea may use less energy, I'm not sure:
Fire a high powered laser beam into the storm clowd.  This will create an
ion trail upto to storm.  The lightning should come down the laser beam
just like it had been a wire.  NOTE:  The beam should be reflected off a
shiny metalic mirror so that the charge goes through the mirror, not
continueing to the laser.  Any ideas?
Andrew

> 
> Bob Shannon and O'connor wrote:
> 
> 
> > > I am positively sure that we have enough technology to capture/harness
> > > the energy...but we aren't using it in our homes ect yet...
> > > 
> > > -Shannon
> > 
> > I'm not quite as sure as you are on this.  Exactly what types of
> > conductors would you use to withstand the bolt?
> > 
> > And then, how you you store the energy?  What make and model capacitors
> > could survive in this type of application?
> > 
> > Once we had the charge collected (assuming the collector survived the
> > strike, and some form of technology could store the energy) how would
> > the energy be converted into a practical form?
> > 
> > Some sort of AC inverters?  What switching devices could possibly
> > withstand the voltages found in a lightning bolt?
> 
>    Since here I am in ensconced in my armchair, with a dearth of
> technical knowledge on the subject, I am in a perfect position to
> speculate on ways this could be done.
>    First my lightning system would convert the lightning into other
> forms of energy at the point of contact so that some of the force was
> dissipated in the conversion process.
>    You have to speak of a collector before anything else.  This
> discussion so far implies that lightning is easy to get, but no one is
> going to build a huge generating station unless lightning is available
> on demand.
>    Soo-- cover an area around the lightning to ground channel with a
> metallic sheet and charge it to high voltage BELOW ground. The potential
> lightning will "see" this area the same as it would a very high building
> because the work needed for it to cross the potential difference is much
> less.
>    In the middle of your lightning attractor you have a tall, totally
> smooth copper rod about 8 feet across. This must project high enough
> over the collector that discharges will only go to the rod.  This huge
> rod passes underground into a very large tank about a third full of
> water.  The lightning is made to pass through the water on its way to
> ground. The longitudinal current and thermal dissipation effects combine
> to create a wall of intensely hot steam which then goes to turbines.
> BTW, "Ground" is an extensive network of very thick copper cables spread
> over a large area in intimate contact with the Earth.   
>    The whole thing sounds like an amazing opportunity for the government
> to create a boondoggle.
>    THe interesting part for me is the lightning collector.  Is it
> possible that a lower energy form of this could attract microdischarges
> or air electricity?
>                         from The Federal Lightning Project..to you,
>                               Fred
> 
> 


-- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 13:58:02 1997
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From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
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Subject: Re: LIGHTNING!
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 16:43:11 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <199705052034.QAA08557@big.seorf.ohiou.edu> from "Science wig. sig." at May 5, 97 04:34:08 pm
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Just to add to the last post: can you get energy out of a storm clowd just
by collecting the static from ground level.  No lightning needed.  You
know, how your hair stands on end.  Could you use that to collect energy?

Andrew

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 15:05:38 1997
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Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 18:50:05 -0400
From: ce3cwf = felix meyer <ce3cwf@cmet.net>
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Science wig. sig. wrote:
> 
> In what way can you teach (me/anyone) to control it?
> Andrew
> (snip ...)
> > Science wig. sig. wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Personally, I believe in it 100%, but I don't have much logical proof
> > > > > behind it. I believe that every object contains a certain amount of
> > > > > positive nrg, and that nothing unreal exists...but I need some other
> > > > > observations and ideas. Please share whatever is on your mind.
> > > > Hi!
> > > > Actually, my theory is that telekinesis, as well as many, if not all
> > > > psionic or psychic powers *may* be possible through our minds creating or
> > > > manipulating virtual particles. Virtual particles facilitate the exchange
> > > > of energy. ...

Wonderful !

The only problem is, that these particles are VIRTUAL and NOT REAL !!!

	Regards
		Felix Meyer

mailto:ce3cwf@cmet.net

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 15:10:36 1997
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From: M2Milly@aol.com
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 17:29:38 -0400 (EDT)
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In a message dated 97-05-03 21:27:01 EDT, Shannon writes:

<< Does anyone have any opinions on telekenisis? Any unique ways of looking
 at it, or any possible ways of showing that it is a reality?
 
 Personally, I believe in it 100%, but I don't have much logical proof
 behind it. I believe that every object contains a certain amount of
 positive nrg, and that nothing unreal exists...but I need some other
 observations and ideas. Please share whatever is on your mind. >>

Phil Gantt writes
<<We can.  You only need a little guidance on how to manipulate the energy.>>

OK heres a little guidance for you....

They have many advanced abilities, one of which you would describe as
telepathy. They have the ability not only to function as single units, but
also as one consolidated thought form. When travelling across the universe,
these thought form energies group together in a close compact formation,
and it is this mass density that makes them appear as being semi-manifest
to other eyes. Their appearance within the environs of another dense mass,
such as a planet, can often be mistaken as that of a comet or shooting
star. They also have the ability to individualise their energy when
necessary, to the level of what you would call the Lightbody. This
Lightbody can then be contained within an outer form, you could almost call
it a "space suit", in order that they can manifest in the third dimension.
But the result of this individualisation, and third dimensional
manifestation, is that they become more vulnerable to a drain upon their
energies, especially when in close contact with those of lower energy.

     It was in this form that they often appeared to human beings at the
time of which your bible speaks, when they were called Angels. (This is
name was given by you because of their ability to cross between dimensions
using the 90 degree angle technique. Thus the word Angle became Angel,
although they can be more accurately described by the name of E-L-ohim.)
Because of the potential drain to their energies in assuming denser form,
they would more often simply communicate with the minds of men, so that
they thought that they saw them, in forms that were most suited to the
ideas and expectations of the people with which they were dealing."

Telepathy is a higher vibration pattern.
Telekinesis is the dense pattern - which is very draining.  
On/In the higher dimensions, telepathy and telekinesis are the same.

What are your expectations?
MjMichael
Would you know one if it shook hands with you?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 15:26:31 1997
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Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 01:18:06 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Mika Letonsaari <mletonsa@cc.hut.fi>
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: LIGHTNING!
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On Mon, 5 May 1997, Science wig. sig. wrote:

> Just to add to the last post: can you get energy out of a storm clowd just
> by collecting the static from ground level.  No lightning needed.  You
> know, how your hair stands on end.  Could you use that to collect energy?

Scientific American had an article "Electrostatic motors are powered by
the electric field of the earth." on The Amateur Scientist by C. L. Stong.
This was probably at early 70's (?).

Article says: "During fair weather the antenna will pick up potential at
the rate of 100 volts for each meter of height between the points and the
earth's surface up to a few hundred feet." and "a single sharp point can
draw electric current from the surrounding air at a rate of only about a
millionth of an ampere."

No power ratings of built devices are mentioned on the article, but some
electrostatic motors are powered by a 300 feet antenna lifted up by
weather balloons. Has anyone developed this device further? 

              --------------------------------------------
     Mika Letonsaari, mletonsa@cc.hut.fi, http://www.hut.fi/~mletonsa
   Student of Engineering Physics at Helsinki University of Technology
"All science is either physics or stamp collecting."  - Ernest Rutherford
              --------------------------------------------


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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: LIGHTNING

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>> I'm just wondering if anyone else out there is wondering why lightning
>> is not being harnessed for power usage.
>> 
>> I am positively sure that we have enough technology to capture/harness
>> the energy...but we aren't using it in our homes ect yet...
>> 
>> -Shannon
>
>I'm not quite as sure as you are on this.  Exactly what types of
>conductors would you use to withstand the bolt?
>

This has been done using barium titanate, which is very sensitive to
electrical fields.

Peter Nielsen


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 17:40:07 1997
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>> I'm just wondering if anyone else out there is wondering why lightning
>> is not being harnessed for power usage.
>> 
>> I am positively sure that we have enough technology to capture/harness
>> the energy...but we aren't using it in our homes ect yet...
>> 
>> -Shannon
>
>I'm not quite as sure as you are on this.  Exactly what types of
>conductors would you use to withstand the bolt?
>

This has been done using barium titanate, which is very sensitive to
electrical fields.

Peter Nielsen

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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: Electromechanical Overunity

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>It has been proven by those who prove these things (the first two
>refs) that a one-way system must include either a static magnetic field
>or a mechanical coupling (such as the gyro or transducer combinations).
>

What about ES fields?

Peter Nielsen


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 17:42:20 1997
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>It has been proven by those who prove these things (the first two
>refs) that a one-way system must include either a static magnetic field
>or a mechanical coupling (such as the gyro or transducer combinations).
>

What about ES fields?

Peter Nielsen

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 19:20:46 1997
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From: tmwsiy@mail2.wilmington.net
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Subject: DePalma web site up!!
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Hello All,

This is my first post to the newsgroup. I have been interested in 
free energy and especially the work of Bruce DePalma for awhile.
I would like to announce a web site put up by his people of his 
latest papers. His latest designs allow for 4-1 overunity ratio.
As demonstrated by Paramahamsa Tewari of India, in his most recent machines
encorperationg Dr. DePalma's designs. All of the theory and most of 
the technical knowledge needed to build a useable free energy system 
in the existing infrastructure. Dr. DePalma freely gives this 
intellectual property to humanity in hopes that our race can come 
through the darkness of oppression and greed and into the radiance of 
enlightenment.

the url is http://www.depalma.org.nz


comments? I am pretty well versed with Dr. DePalma's work 
tmwsiy@wilmington.net


Eddie Dunn

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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
DePalma web site up!!

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Hello All,

This is my first post to the newsgroup. I have been interested in 
free energy and especially the work of Bruce DePalma for awhile.
I would like to announce a web site put up by his people of his 
latest papers. His latest designs allow for 4-1 overunity ratio.
As demonstrated by Paramahamsa Tewari of India, in his most recent machines
encorperationg Dr. DePalma's designs. All of the theory and most of 
the technical knowledge needed to build a useable free energy system 
in the existing infrastructure. Dr. DePalma freely gives this 
intellectual property to humanity in hopes that our race can come 
through the darkness of oppression and greed and into the radiance of 
enlightenment.

the url is http://www.depalma.org.nz


comments? I am pretty well versed with Dr. DePalma's work 
tmwsiy@wilmington.net


Eddie Dunn


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 21:11:30 1997
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Message-ID: <336EF19B.10D2@triode.net.au>
Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 01:53:47 -0700
From: Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
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tmwsiy@mail2.wilmington.net wrote:

> the url is http://www.depalma.org.nz
> 
> comments? I am pretty well versed with Dr. DePalma's work
> tmwsiy@wilmington.net
> 
> Eddie Dunn

I tried this link and the URL is wrong. Can you please check it and
email the correct URL?

Thanks and welcome to the list ;-)

-- 
Maxwell.
Be reckless! Practice senseless acts of compassion!

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 21:17:19 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: DePalma web site up!!

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tmwsiy@mail2.wilmington.net wrote:

> the url is http://www.depalma.org.nz
> 
> comments? I am pretty well versed with Dr. DePalma's work
> tmwsiy@wilmington.net
> 
> Eddie Dunn

I tried this link and the URL is wrong. Can you please check it and
email the correct URL?

Thanks and welcome to the list ;-)

-- 
Maxwell.
Be reckless! Practice senseless acts of compassion!


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 21:25:30 1997
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Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 21:18:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: LIGHTNING
In-Reply-To: <336E106D.6DD4@tiac.net>
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On Mon, 5 May 1997, Bob Shannon wrote:

> O'Connor wrote:
> > 
> > I'm just wondering if anyone else out there is wondering why lightning
> > is not being harnessed for power usage.

Because it's eeeeeeeeeeevil!      ;)

See: "Destroy the world with a piece of wire",

   http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/freenrg/dworld.txt

.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623
EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/
Seattle, WA 98117  billb@eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 21:25:42 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: LIGHTNING

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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On Mon, 5 May 1997, Bob Shannon wrote:

> O'Connor wrote:
> > 
> > I'm just wondering if anyone else out there is wondering why lightning
> > is not being harnessed for power usage.

Because it's eeeeeeeeeeevil!      ;)

See: "Destroy the world with a piece of wire",

   http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/freenrg/dworld.txt

.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623
EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/
Seattle, WA 98117  billb@eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 21:43:25 1997
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Resent-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 21:34:10 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <01BC599B.BC62B640@ristra.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: DePalma web site up!!
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 21:31:46 -0700
Encoding: 30 TEXT, 41 UUENCODE
X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00
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Looks like it's the correct URL, but a down site.
AltaVista has a listing for it, URL as stated, but I can't connect either.

Dan Quickert

----------
From: 	Maxwell
Sent: 	Tuesday, May 06, 1997 1:53 AM
To: 	freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: 	Re: DePalma web site up!!

tmwsiy@mail2.wilmington.net wrote:

> the url is http://www.depalma.org.nz
> 
> comments? I am pretty well versed with Dr. DePalma's work
> tmwsiy@wilmington.net
> 
> Eddie Dunn

I tried this link and the URL is wrong. Can you please check it and
email the correct URL?

Thanks and welcome to the list ;-)

-- 
Maxwell.
Be reckless! Practice senseless acts of compassion!



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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 23:14:17 1997
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Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 00:02:06 -0600 (MDT)
From: "John R. Tooker" <jrtooker@freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
To: ce3cwf = felix meyer <ce3cwf@cmet.net>
Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Positive Nrg
In-Reply-To: <336E641D.315@cmet.net>
Message-Id: <Pine.A32.3.93.970506000034.36554A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
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> 
> Wonderful !
> 
> The only problem is, that these particles are VIRTUAL and NOT REAL !!!
> 
> 	Regards
> 		Felix Meyer
> 
> mailto:ce3cwf@cmet.net
> 
> 
Actually, these are the same virtual particles that affect every reaction
from a photon emission to the detonation of an atomic bomb. Or, so quantam
physics predicts.....
John

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 23:13:49 1997
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	 bilb@eskimo.com                    19908 mx2.eskimo.com
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: Positive Nrg

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 00:02:06 -0600 (MDT)
From: "John R. Tooker" <jrtooker@freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
To: ce3cwf = felix meyer <ce3cwf@cmet.net>
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Subject: Re: Positive Nrg
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> 
> Wonderful !
> 
> The only problem is, that these particles are VIRTUAL and NOT REAL !!!
> 
> 	Regards
> 		Felix Meyer
> 
> mailto:ce3cwf@cmet.net
> 
> 
Actually, these are the same virtual particles that affect every reaction
from a photon emission to the detonation of an atomic bomb. Or, so quantam
physics predicts.....
John


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 23:26:43 1997
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Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 15:50:25 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

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From: rvanspaa@eisa.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Subject: Re: Simple OU Device
Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 03:05:37 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <336af0a5.35300248@mail.eisa.net.au>
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On Sat, 03 May 1997 10:24:05 +0930, Greg Watson wrote:
[snip]
Greg,

I may have missed a few replies, so just in case no one else has
suggested it yet, why not simply raise the exit point till it is
higher than the entry point? If energy is really being added in the
black box, and the friction is sufficiently low, you should be able to
achieve a situation where the ball will end up higher than its
starting point. 
If you can also show that the ball is not attracted to the black box
on a level track at the same starting distance, then you have a fairly
strong indication that you have an OU effect.
In fact you could probably run the ball around a curved track back to
the starting point, so that it keeps on going by itself.
Also as a way of reducing friction still further, you might like to
replace most of the track sections outside the black box with
"angle-iron" ( :-) aluminium. (Angle pointed down, ball rolling on two
sharp edges).


Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@eisa.net.au>
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Check out: http://www.eisa.net.au/~rvanspaa for how CF depends on 
temperature.
"....,then he should stop, and he will catch up..."
PS - no SPAM thanks!
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*


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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 23:33:38 1997
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-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

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Message-ID: <336D1773.18EA@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 08:40:43 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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To: Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@eisa.net.au>
Subject: Re: Simple OU Device
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 03 May 1997 10:24:05 +0930, Greg Watson wrote:
> [snip]
> Greg,
> 
> I may have missed a few replies, so just in case no one else has
> suggested it yet, why not simply raise the exit point till it is
> higher than the entry point? If energy is really being added in the
> black box, and the friction is sufficiently low, you should be able to
> achieve a situation where the ball will end up higher than its
> starting point.

Haven't tried that. will give it a go.

> If you can also show that the ball is not attracted to the black box
> on a level track at the same starting distance, then you have a fairly
> strong indication that you have an OU effect.

With a stationary ball, attraction seems to start at about 40-50mm. 
Further away with a rolling ball.

> In fact you could probably run the ball around a curved track back to
> the starting point, so that it keeps on going by itself.

Tried that, too much friction.  Every tried to radius 12mm alum "U"
channel?

> Also as a way of reducing friction still further, you might like to
> replace most of the track sections outside the black box with
> "angle-iron" ( :-) aluminium. (Angle pointed down, ball rolling on two
> sharp edges).

The ball is 12mm dia, the alum "U" channel is 12mm wide, 10mm wide
inside.  The ball rolls on the inside edge of the "U" channel.  Its
fairly sharp.

> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@eisa.net.au>

Hi Robin,

Will try the raised exit track idea.  The only problem I can see is
where to try it.  Too close and magnetic drag back may effect the result
(you can see it slow down the ball in the first 100mm or so), too far
and not much energy left.  But as a gut feel, I believe I could achieve
at least 4-5mm.

I have tested the required release height on the exit path of the "Black
Box" (with the magnets removed) to achieve the same roll out distance
and have found that drag back seems to kill about 75-80% of the energy. 
>From memory, I would say that the height was about 3-4mm above the
release height on the release track.

Will repeat the tests and post the results.

I would like to forward this post.  OK?

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax




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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 23:34:04 1997
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 05 May 1997 08:40:43 +0930, Greg Watson wrote:
> [snip]
> >Tried that, too much friction.  Every tried to radius 12mm alum "U"
> >channel?
> [snip]
> No, but I can imagine that it would have a strong tendency to kink.
> What might be easier, if you can get a reasonable height difference,
> is to put a hole in the bottom of the exit track (raised), and let the
> ball fall through into another track that leads it back to the
> beginning. That way you can get 180 deg. change in direction, with no
> bending.

Hi Robin,

What about this?
 

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May  5 23:36:31 1997
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Message-ID: <336ED0C7.51C0@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 16:03:43 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Simple OU Device
References: <336A8CAD.2EC@microtronics.com.au> <336C2A3D.73F8@loc1.tandem.com> <336D1313.72FC@microtronics.com.au> <336EBC24.201A@loc1.tandem.com>
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Bob Horst wrote:
> 
> Greg Watson wrote:
> >
> > With all respect Bob, the test unit does exhibit OU.  Several others
> > have duplicated the device.  What is left to do now is to work to fully
> > understand what is going on and how to increase the energy gain and how
> > to scale it up.
> 
> Greg --
> 
> I do not doubt that your device is doing what you say it does and that others have replicated it.
> I am just trying to think of other possible explanations.  The air resistance idea was probably far
> fetched, but I just thought of another possiblity.  Rolling friction is proportional to the normal
> force (weight) of the ball bearing.  If your black box has magnets arranged in such a way that they
> pull up on the ball, it reduces the rolling friction.  Even if the magnets pull mostly to the side
> of the track, the curve of the ball would tend to make it ride toward one rail, and to make it ride
> higher in the track.  Either effect would be sort of like a primative magnetic bearing.  It would
> not be too far fetched to think that this could reduce total  friction by around half, letting it
> roll 2.4 m instead of 1.1 m.  You have probably already discounted this somehow, but I am curious
> as to how you can be sure this is not the effect you are seeing.
> 
> >
> > I am working to develop a rotary unit which will deliver 1 watt of
> > electrical power to a small bulb.
> >
> If you accomplish this, it should put all questions to rest.
> 
> Good luck,
> 
> -- Bob

Hi Bob,

The ball rolls slightly above the centre line of the magnets.  This is
done to increase the downward force vectors to help overcome unbalanced
side to side attraction.

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 00:20:21 1997
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Resent-Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 00:12:14 -0700
Message-ID: <336ED994.3D7F@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 16:41:16 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Subject: Simple OU Device Tests
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Hi All,

Thanks to Robin, I have revisited my linear model test setup.  What I
found was not what I wanted to find.

I created a release ramp based on the idea of delivering the ball to the
entry point of the "Black Box" at at zero energy or as close to it as I
could get.

What actually occured was the "Black Box" attracted the ball 100-150mm
from the entry point (while the ball was still rolling).  The ball at
this point had some kinetic energy and the exit energy calcs (based on
zero entry energy) were in error.

I have now modified the test setup to a 75mm level entry track.  The
ball is placed on the end of the entry track and restrained from moving
by a balsa stick.  The stick is drawn upward and the ball is allowed to
enter the "Black Box".

The ball still exits the "Black Box", but stops about 600mm along the
exit track.  It is NOT drawn back!

Further tesing is under way.

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 00:28:39 1997
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Message-ID: <336EDE0F.2278@gorge.net>
Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 00:30:23 -0700
From: tom@gorge.net (Tom Miller)
Reply-To: tom@gorge.net
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: LIGHTNING!
References: <199705060634.XAA14743@mx1.eskimo.com>
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One could look at lightning as a failure of a capacitor.
The potential between two capacitor "plates" (ie cloud and
ground) becomes so great that the dielectric (air) becomes 
ionized and fails. 

Instead of trying to take advantage of a failure, why not
build a huge capacitor to take the built up charge from 
the air. Maybe a highly saline pond, with with an insulating
barrier (Polyethelene) surrounding the bottom half.

Then a conductor to a balloon, feeding to the bottom half. 
the top half would be at ground.

A somewhat similar idea was used by TESLA: a wire to a balloon,
current flows through the witre, to ground. BUT.. instead, it
charges a capacitor, which fires across a apark gap, to a 
transformer. High frequency AC, from the sky!!

Tom Miller

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 02:32:24 1997
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Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 02:27:53 -0700
From: "Philip R. Gantt" <pgantt@ix.netcom.com>
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Science wig. sig. wrote:
> 
> In what way can you teach (me/anyone) to control it?
> Andrew

Hi Andrew,

Well, for starters check out my web page and read the article that I
wrote on telepathy.  Practice the exercises in that paper and you will
begin to see how to manipulate the energy that we all can control.  Also
check out the Aum Ru pages. The exercises in this discipline are akin to
Yoga exercises and disciplines.

Like any skill worth gaining, it takes work and practice (not belief or
faith). The key element to controlling the forces of nature outside of
the physical body is to first control those forces within the physical
body.  This takes mental and emotional energy, focused and controlled. 
The effects are amplified by controlled breathing to establish a
resonant condition between body, emotion and mental substance.

You may write me directly if you have any more questions
(pgantt@ix.netcom.com).
-- 
In Love and Light,

Phil Gantt
http://www.netcom.com/~pgantt/intro.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 02:39:09 1997
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Re: Positive Nrg

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Science wig. sig. wrote:
> 
> In what way can you teach (me/anyone) to control it?
> Andrew

Hi Andrew,

Well, for starters check out my web page and read the article that I
wrote on telepathy.  Practice the exercises in that paper and you will
begin to see how to manipulate the energy that we all can control.  Also
check out the Aum Ru pages. The exercises in this discipline are akin to
Yoga exercises and disciplines.

Like any skill worth gaining, it takes work and practice (not belief or
faith). The key element to controlling the forces of nature outside of
the physical body is to first control those forces within the physical
body.  This takes mental and emotional energy, focused and controlled. 
The effects are amplified by controlled breathing to establish a
resonant condition between body, emotion and mental substance.

You may write me directly if you have any more questions
(pgantt@ix.netcom.com).
-- 
In Love and Light,

Phil Gantt
http://www.netcom.com/~pgantt/intro.html


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 05:34:56 1997
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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At 08:16 AM 5/5/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>	
>   Having met John Hutchison I can say from my own perception John is
>absolutely incapable of creating a deliberate fraud. He is an
>otherworldly type who is more interested in the phenomena at hand than
>getting any gain from it.  We had a hard time keeping him focussed on
>ways to market one of his inventions. He seems perpetually surprised at
>the attention that this video has gotten him.  If it's all a front then
>I am a much poorer judge of character than I think I am.
>                   For what it's worth,
>                   Fred
>
>
>
could you enlighten me on John Hutchinson and his claims
Geoff

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At 08:16 AM 5/5/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>	
>   Having met John Hutchison I can say from my own perception John is
>absolutely incapable of creating a deliberate fraud. He is an
>otherworldly type who is more interested in the phenomena at hand than
>getting any gain from it.  We had a hard time keeping him focussed on
>ways to market one of his inventions. He seems perpetually surprised at
>the attention that this video has gotten him.  If it's all a front then
>I am a much poorer judge of character than I think I am.
>                   For what it's worth,
>                   Fred
>
>
>
could you enlighten me on John Hutchinson and his claims
Geoff


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 07:00:39 1997
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Hello again,

I am not sure what the problem is... http://www.depalma.org.nz works 
for me. Also the real domain name is 
http://www.iconz.co.nz/commercial/depalma/default.html
which also works for me, sorry for any confusion. I am not sure why everyone is having
trouble, any explanations?  The information is very worth it though 
:)


Eddie

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 07:06:20 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
DePalma web site

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Hello again,

I am not sure what the problem is... http://www.depalma.org.nz works 
for me. Also the real domain name is 
http://www.iconz.co.nz/commercial/depalma/default.html
which also works for me, sorry for any confusion. I am not sure why everyone is having
trouble, any explanations?  The information is very worth it though 
:)


Eddie


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 08:06:56 1997
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Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 10:56:50 -0700
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tmwsiy@mail2.wilmington.net wrote:
> 
> Hello again,
> 
> I am not sure what the problem is... http://www.depalma.org.nz works
> for me. Also the real domain name is
> http://www.iconz.co.nz/commercial/depalma/default.html
> which also works for me, sorry for any confusion. I am not sure why everyone is having
> trouble, any explanations?  The information is very worth it though
> :)
> 
> Eddie

My question is whats new from DePalma?  We have read of the Sunburst
device being over unity according to DePalma, only to find that this
device was not in fact over unity.

So whats changed?   The photo on the web site shows an older device,
from the days when Sunburst was still claimed  to be over unity.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 09:58:17 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: Earth gyro power

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 05:54:02 -0700
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Hi Jean-Louis,

   I am going to pick up a copy of the gyro-power patent at the nearby
engineering library so if you can't get the file, I will send you the
patent.
   It's very strange to me to see this discussion of the tapping of the
Earth's rotation.  I was inspired to study this two years ago after
reading Martin Rudefer's paper called "Tapping The Earth's Rotation For
Power" which very clearly delineates the ways to do this. Based on his
work I did many studies of gyro characteristics, motors, lubrication,
etc. I designed a machine that sounds very similar to this patent.  When
the discussion began on this subject on the list I held back from
commenting because I thought maybe people were tired of me butting in on
every discussion.
   There's no question that it is possible to do this. The physics is
basic and inaruguable (and I won't argue it!) and will be apparent to
anyone who understands gyros, inertial frames of reference, and
Foucalt's pendulum. The slowing down of the Earth's rotation was
calculated to be insignificant in the lifetime of the human race on the
planet, even with a huge power usage. (Sorry I don't have the figures
with me).
   The gyro rotor in my machine was a bicycle-wheel like disc with a
thick rim and high-quality bearings, in a vacuum container,
intermittently driven by a permanent magnet or pulsed gyro motor. To
arrive at this design I evaluated possible modes of operation, moments
of inertia, characteristics of all gyro suspension systems, and motors.
   Someone mentioned earlier on the list the possibility of using a gear
train to make the rotational power usable. This is what I did. With the
rotor configuration I've described the apparent "gyroscopic torque"
(actually the rotation of the earth!) is at its highest: plenty of
torque to drive a gear train.
   The problem with this kind of device is its efficiency. Necessarily
there is some input power into the gyro rotor. There are also
considerable mechanical losses involved in the gear train, and
electromechanical conversion losses. After adding up all the losses I
think I arrived at a figure of 120% "apparent" efficiency. At this point
I abandoned the idea because I wanted MORE :-)
   I have not looked a the patent yet so I can't say what the problem
is, but my design had no difficulty with having to be stopped and
restarted. The orientation of the whole gyro platform relative to the
earth's surface determines the motion of the gyro.  There are several
operational modes possible. Some of them would tend to "lock".  Mine did
not.
                                      Fred


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 10:06:52 1997
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Hi Jean-Louis,

   I am going to pick up a copy of the gyro-power patent at the nearby
engineering library so if you can't get the file, I will send you the
patent.
   It's very strange to me to see this discussion of the tapping of the
Earth's rotation.  I was inspired to study this two years ago after
reading Martin Rudefer's paper called "Tapping The Earth's Rotation For
Power" which very clearly delineates the ways to do this. Based on his
work I did many studies of gyro characteristics, motors, lubrication,
etc. I designed a machine that sounds very similar to this patent.  When
the discussion began on this subject on the list I held back from
commenting because I thought maybe people were tired of me butting in on
every discussion.
   There's no question that it is possible to do this. The physics is
basic and inaruguable (and I won't argue it!) and will be apparent to
anyone who understands gyros, inertial frames of reference, and
Foucalt's pendulum. The slowing down of the Earth's rotation was
calculated to be insignificant in the lifetime of the human race on the
planet, even with a huge power usage. (Sorry I don't have the figures
with me).
   The gyro rotor in my machine was a bicycle-wheel like disc with a
thick rim and high-quality bearings, in a vacuum container,
intermittently driven by a permanent magnet or pulsed gyro motor. To
arrive at this design I evaluated possible modes of operation, moments
of inertia, characteristics of all gyro suspension systems, and motors.
   Someone mentioned earlier on the list the possibility of using a gear
train to make the rotational power usable. This is what I did. With the
rotor configuration I've described the apparent "gyroscopic torque"
(actually the rotation of the earth!) is at its highest: plenty of
torque to drive a gear train.
   The problem with this kind of device is its efficiency. Necessarily
there is some input power into the gyro rotor. There are also
considerable mechanical losses involved in the gear train, and
electromechanical conversion losses. After adding up all the losses I
think I arrived at a figure of 120% "apparent" efficiency. At this point
I abandoned the idea because I wanted MORE :-)
   I have not looked a the patent yet so I can't say what the problem
is, but my design had no difficulty with having to be stopped and
restarted. The orientation of the whole gyro platform relative to the
earth's surface determines the motion of the gyro.  There are several
operational modes possible. Some of them would tend to "lock".  Mine did
not.
                                      Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 12:40:17 1997
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From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705061913.PAA09463@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: Re: LIGHTNING! (fwd)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 15:13:15 -0400 (EDT)
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Forwarded message:
> From rgd872@leonard.anu.edu.au Mon May  5 17:09:52 1997
> X-Authentication-Warning: leonard.anu.edu.au: rgd872 owned process doing -bs
> Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 07:09:36 +1000 (EST)
> From: Rodney Davies <rgd872@anu.edu.au>
> Reply-To: Rodney Davies <rgd872@anu.edu.au>
> To: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
> Subject: Re: LIGHTNING!
> In-Reply-To: <199705052034.QAA08557@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
> Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970506065656.6934A-100000@leonard.anu.edu.au>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
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> 
> Hi Andrew,
> 
> (Sorry, I can read from the listserve, but it won't let me write to it..
> so this message is going directly to you...please forward it to the list
> if you wish...)
> 
> On Mon, 5 May 1997, Science wig. sig. wrote:
> 
> > But, if you use the high voltage, you lose energy as well as gain.  My
> > idea may use less energy, I'm not sure:
> > Fire a high powered laser beam into the storm clowd.  This will create an
> > ion trail upto to storm.  The lightning should come down the laser beam
> > just like it had been a wire.  NOTE:  The beam should be reflected off a
> > shiny metalic mirror so that the charge goes through the mirror, not
> > continueing to the laser.  Any ideas?
> > Andrew
> 
> Your idea seems interesting....very!
> 
> I'm assuming that when you refer to using a laser beam like a wire, you
> mean that the plasma that surrounds a laser beam is the conductive medium?
> 
> If that is the case, then your idea I think has already been in use for a
> few years now...
> Some research facility in Japan was employing this technique by using
> visible and invisible laser beams (relatively high power, > 10Watts
> output) to attract lightning.
> 
> There may be several techniques employed in extracting the energy from the
> beams themselves, such as induction and direct 'tapping'
> of the laser beam.
> 
> The induction method would use huge (high-current) coil (or a number
> of them) which is heavily insulated and surrounds the beam. When the
> lightning passes down the beam, there is effectively an EMF created along
> the "wire". This EMF produces a _huge_ magnetic field which can be used
> for inducing voltages.
> In this case, you will have only a small number of turns in the coil(s) as
> to generate a small voltage but relatively high-current. This can then be
> used much easily that a "pure" lightning bolt.
> 
> There would then need to be filters which catch any stray EMF which makes
> it past the coil(s) before it reaches the laser source.
> 
> 
> The direct tapping method would use a star-pattern of conductors
> penetrating the laser beam at right angles -
> 
> 
>        \ | / <- conductors
>       -- . -- (looking into the "." laser beam)
>        / | \
> 
> These would only just penetrate the laser beam through the plasma
> conductive layer (not all the way into the beam) as to be able to "tap"
> the EMF flowing through it. 
> 
> These conductors would be connected together then perhaps passed through
> some ultra-high voltage step-down transformers or to some other device to
> then employ the use of the energy that has been tapped....
> 
> Anyway, they're my ideas, not sure if they're the techniques used in
> Japan, but I developed them myself....
> 
> See what everyone else says!
> 
> Catchya Later!
> 
> Rod
> 
> 
> 


-- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 13:09:00 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 15:52:58 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970506155158_1189505226@emout19.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
cc: bshannon@tiac.net
Subject: Update about : The David Hamel Scalar Generator
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Hi All,

I have updated "The David Hamel Scalar Generator" with new schemes and some
details about the magnet polarity.

You will find these informations at :
 
   http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/hamscgen.htm
 
I hope that this information will interest you,
 
Sincerely,
 
Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 13:43:31 1997
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 15:51:05 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
What's new with DePalma

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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FIrst of all the Sunburst Machine operates on exactly the same 
principles as Tewari's machine (which operates on DePalma's 
principles) his (Tewari's) latest machies are the only ones built on these 
principles which offer overunity in the strictest sense (i.e. more 
electrical output than input). 
In the case of the Sunburst machine in 
a strict sense, It was not overunity because it required power for 
the electro-magnet (all the new machines use permanent magnets)
and the A.C. drive motor. But the DIFFERENCE in energy 
required to merely spin the charged electromagnet with an open 
circuit and that required when closing the loop and generating 2 or 3 kilowatts
was about a 4 or 5 to 1 ratio out to in. 

I am not at liberty to discuss DePalma's current plans other than is 
well and in New Zealand.

A word about the latest "bad press" about DePalma:
These recent posts originated with ZENergy company, a former backer of 
DePalma. These people have a good history of trying to exploit Scientists 
for there knowledge and then discarding them.  When DePalma realized this 
pulled out from the deal they sent a group of Foriegn Nationals (illegally) 
to his home in New Zealand to confiscate the machines which they had funded.

I nor Dr. DePalma is in the buisness of providing plans for 
over-unity machines at risk of being shot, however as I said all the 
information required to build such a machine is contained in the 
papers and in the excepts from Tewari's book.

Eddie


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 15:52:50 1997
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FIrst of all the Sunburst Machine operates on exactly the same 
principles as Tewari's machine (which operates on DePalma's 
principles) his (Tewari's) latest machies are the only ones built on these 
principles which offer overunity in the strictest sense (i.e. more 
electrical output than input). 
In the case of the Sunburst machine in 
a strict sense, It was not overunity because it required power for 
the electro-magnet (all the new machines use permanent magnets)
and the A.C. drive motor. But the DIFFERENCE in energy 
required to merely spin the charged electromagnet with an open 
circuit and that required when closing the loop and generating 2 or 3 kilowatts
was about a 4 or 5 to 1 ratio out to in. 

I am not at liberty to discuss DePalma's current plans other than is 
well and in New Zealand.

A word about the latest "bad press" about DePalma:
These recent posts originated with ZENergy company, a former backer of 
DePalma. These people have a good history of trying to exploit Scientists 
for there knowledge and then discarding them.  When DePalma realized this 
pulled out from the deal they sent a group of Foriegn Nationals (illegally) 
to his home in New Zealand to confiscate the machines which they had funded.

I nor Dr. DePalma is in the buisness of providing plans for 
over-unity machines at risk of being shot, however as I said all the 
information required to build such a machine is contained in the 
papers and in the excepts from Tewari's book.

Eddie

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 16:32:20 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: LIGHTNING

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Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 18:16:17 -0500 (CDT)
From: John Fields <starship@fc.net>
Subject: Re: LIGHTNING
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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On Tue, 6 May 1997 mindtech@om.com.au wrote:

> >> I'm just wondering if anyone else out there is wondering why lightning
> >> is not being harnessed for power usage.
> >> 
> >> I am positively sure that we have enough technology to capture/harness
> >> the energy...but we aren't using it in our homes ect yet...
> >> 
> >> -Shannon
> >
> >I'm not quite as sure as you are on this.  Exactly what types of
> >conductors would you use to withstand the bolt?
> >
> 
> This has been done using barium titanate, which is very sensitive to
> electrical fields.
> 
> Peter Nielsen
---------------
As far as I know, Barium Titanate is not a conductor of electricity.

On the other hand, once it has been poled it becomes a fairly good 
piezoelectric material with a high dielectric constant.

The point could be made that if a capacitor were to be constructed using 
poled barium titanate as the dielectric and it was excited with an AC 
voltage, it would appear to be a conductor since current could be caused 
to flow "through" it. 

Interestingly, since the piezoelectric qualities of the material would 
cause the capacitor to change shape, the capacitance of the capacitor 
would be parametric and would change as a function of the voltage 
applied across it. 

I suppose it would be possible, if you had a big enough chunk of the 
stuff and it got hit by lightning, to do an impedance transformation and 
more or less "tame" the energy in the lightning bolt so it could be 
stored at voltage levels we could more easily work with to convert to 
the 120V 60Hz we (here in the US) are familiar with.

John Fields
-----------


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Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 18:16:17 -0500 (CDT)
From: John Fields <starship@fc.net>
Subject: Re: LIGHTNING
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On Tue, 6 May 1997 mindtech@om.com.au wrote:

> >> I'm just wondering if anyone else out there is wondering why lightning
> >> is not being harnessed for power usage.
> >> 
> >> I am positively sure that we have enough technology to capture/harness
> >> the energy...but we aren't using it in our homes ect yet...
> >> 
> >> -Shannon
> >
> >I'm not quite as sure as you are on this.  Exactly what types of
> >conductors would you use to withstand the bolt?
> >
> 
> This has been done using barium titanate, which is very sensitive to
> electrical fields.
> 
> Peter Nielsen
---------------
As far as I know, Barium Titanate is not a conductor of electricity.

On the other hand, once it has been poled it becomes a fairly good 
piezoelectric material with a high dielectric constant.

The point could be made that if a capacitor were to be constructed using 
poled barium titanate as the dielectric and it was excited with an AC 
voltage, it would appear to be a conductor since current could be caused 
to flow "through" it. 

Interestingly, since the piezoelectric qualities of the material would 
cause the capacitor to change shape, the capacitance of the capacitor 
would be parametric and would change as a function of the voltage 
applied across it. 

I suppose it would be possible, if you had a big enough chunk of the 
stuff and it got hit by lightning, to do an impedance transformation and 
more or less "tame" the energy in the lightning bolt so it could be 
stored at voltage levels we could more easily work with to convert to 
the 120V 60Hz we (here in the US) are familiar with.

John Fields
-----------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 17:03:55 1997
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Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 18:31:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: John Fields <starship@fc.net>
Subject: Re: Earth gyro power
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Jean-Louis Naudin <JNaudin509@aol.com>
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On Tue, 6 May 1997, Fred B. Epps wrote:

> Hi Jean-Louis,
> 
>    I am going to pick up a copy of the gyro-power patent at the nearby
> engineering library so if you can't get the file, I will send you the
> patent.
>    It's very strange to me to see this discussion of the tapping of the
> Earth's rotation.  I was inspired to study this two years ago after
> reading Martin Rudefer's paper called "Tapping The Earth's Rotation For
> Power" which very clearly delineates the ways to do this. Based on his
> work I did many studies of gyro characteristics, motors, lubrication,
> etc. I designed a machine that sounds very similar to this patent.  When
> the discussion began on this subject on the list I held back from
> commenting because I thought maybe people were tired of me butting in on
> every discussion.
>    There's no question that it is possible to do this. The physics is
> basic and inaruguable (and I won't argue it!) and will be apparent to
> anyone who understands gyros, inertial frames of reference, and
> Foucalt's pendulum. The slowing down of the Earth's rotation was
> calculated to be insignificant in the lifetime of the human race on the
> planet, even with a huge power usage. (Sorry I don't have the figures
> with me).
>    The gyro rotor in my machine was a bicycle-wheel like disc with a
> thick rim and high-quality bearings, in a vacuum container,
> intermittently driven by a permanent magnet or pulsed gyro motor. To
> arrive at this design I evaluated possible modes of operation, moments
> of inertia, characteristics of all gyro suspension systems, and motors.
>    Someone mentioned earlier on the list the possibility of using a gear
> train to make the rotational power usable. This is what I did. With the
> rotor configuration I've described the apparent "gyroscopic torque"
> (actually the rotation of the earth!) is at its highest: plenty of
> torque to drive a gear train.
>    The problem with this kind of device is its efficiency. Necessarily
> there is some input power into the gyro rotor. There are also
> considerable mechanical losses involved in the gear train, and
> electromechanical conversion losses. After adding up all the losses I
> think I arrived at a figure of 120% "apparent" efficiency. At this point
> I abandoned the idea because I wanted MORE :-)
>    I have not looked a the patent yet so I can't say what the problem
> is, but my design had no difficulty with having to be stopped and
> restarted. The orientation of the whole gyro platform relative to the
> earth's surface determines the motion of the gyro.  There are several
> operational modes possible. Some of them would tend to "lock".  Mine did
> not.
>                                       Fred
> 
> 
--------------------------------------------
I have done many paper designs and have always found, during the 
translation to reality, that "There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the 
lip."

Build it.

John Fields
-----------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 17:05:34 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: Earth gyro power

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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From: John Fields <starship@fc.net>
Subject: Re: Earth gyro power
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Jean-Louis Naudin <JNaudin509@aol.com>
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On Tue, 6 May 1997, Fred B. Epps wrote:

> Hi Jean-Louis,
> 
>    I am going to pick up a copy of the gyro-power patent at the nearby
> engineering library so if you can't get the file, I will send you the
> patent.
>    It's very strange to me to see this discussion of the tapping of the
> Earth's rotation.  I was inspired to study this two years ago after
> reading Martin Rudefer's paper called "Tapping The Earth's Rotation For
> Power" which very clearly delineates the ways to do this. Based on his
> work I did many studies of gyro characteristics, motors, lubrication,
> etc. I designed a machine that sounds very similar to this patent.  When
> the discussion began on this subject on the list I held back from
> commenting because I thought maybe people were tired of me butting in on
> every discussion.
>    There's no question that it is possible to do this. The physics is
> basic and inaruguable (and I won't argue it!) and will be apparent to
> anyone who understands gyros, inertial frames of reference, and
> Foucalt's pendulum. The slowing down of the Earth's rotation was
> calculated to be insignificant in the lifetime of the human race on the
> planet, even with a huge power usage. (Sorry I don't have the figures
> with me).
>    The gyro rotor in my machine was a bicycle-wheel like disc with a
> thick rim and high-quality bearings, in a vacuum container,
> intermittently driven by a permanent magnet or pulsed gyro motor. To
> arrive at this design I evaluated possible modes of operation, moments
> of inertia, characteristics of all gyro suspension systems, and motors.
>    Someone mentioned earlier on the list the possibility of using a gear
> train to make the rotational power usable. This is what I did. With the
> rotor configuration I've described the apparent "gyroscopic torque"
> (actually the rotation of the earth!) is at its highest: plenty of
> torque to drive a gear train.
>    The problem with this kind of device is its efficiency. Necessarily
> there is some input power into the gyro rotor. There are also
> considerable mechanical losses involved in the gear train, and
> electromechanical conversion losses. After adding up all the losses I
> think I arrived at a figure of 120% "apparent" efficiency. At this point
> I abandoned the idea because I wanted MORE :-)
>    I have not looked a the patent yet so I can't say what the problem
> is, but my design had no difficulty with having to be stopped and
> restarted. The orientation of the whole gyro platform relative to the
> earth's surface determines the motion of the gyro.  There are several
> operational modes possible. Some of them would tend to "lock".  Mine did
> not.
>                                       Fred
> 
> 
--------------------------------------------
I have done many paper designs and have always found, during the 
translation to reality, that "There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the 
lip."

Build it.

John Fields
-----------


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 17:40:26 1997
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From: Hawkeye <havveye@execpc.com>
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Subject: RE: Positive Nrg
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 17:49:21 -0500
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If I understand, Virtual particals exist for a very short time, are very small, and go in and out of the space vac. (Not a true vac.) 

Am I right on this? I only remember reading a newspaper article on it. Anyone know more than this?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 17:44:08 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
RE: Positive Nrg

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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If I understand, Virtual particals exist for a very short time, are very small, and go in and out of the space vac. (Not a true vac.) 

Am I right on this? I only remember reading a newspaper article on it. Anyone know more than this?


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 17:45:06 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Microwaves!

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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From: Hawkeye <havveye@execpc.com>
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Subject: Microwaves!
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 17:40:40 -0500
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I have a old microwave and I want to know what can I use it for? (Other than the norm. and the water-powered mower.)


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 17:45:57 1997
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I have a old microwave and I want to know what can I use it for? (Other than the norm. and the water-powered mower.)

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 18:30:41 1997
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From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705070127.VAA06690@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: Re: Positive Nrg
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 21:27:19 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <01BC5A53.805A05A0@pittypat.mdm.mke.execpc.com> from "Hawkeye" at May 6, 97 05:49:21 pm
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They comeout 2 at a time.  One antimater, one mater.  This might make a
good energy source...  See my page on antimater at:
http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/science/science.html
look for it.  I don't remember exactly where it is.

> 
> If I understand, Virtual particals exist for a very short time, are very small, and go in and out of the space vac. (Not a true vac.) 
> 
> Am I right on this? I only remember reading a newspaper article on it. Anyone know more than this?
> 
> 


-- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 19:04:09 1997
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Most of the data between the replicators is exchanged on Greg's private
mailing list.  I would gladly share the details with you if it is OK with
Greg  (...or perhaps he could copy you with the email exchanges from the
list's log...)


For myself I can say that I have replicated Greg's lift with an 8" ramp
(NdFeB) to a height of 2" with NO kinetic energy input.  Furthermore I can
vouch that Greg's setup doesn't suffer from the imperceivable "entrance
pumping" like the TOMI device did.  I have constructed 2 identical ramps
yet I was unable to close the loop.  The possibility of an egineering error
on my part still remains.

The only possible flaw with this device is the POSSIBILITY that the energy
lost during the back attraction (ie. force integrated over distance) is
equal to the work done by the forward attraction like the conventional
theory predicts.  I am unable to prove/disprove this mathematically since
it is beyond my ability to come up with an equation of mechanical
attraction VS. distance from a N-S magnetic gap (no it is not 1/d^3 like
with a single magnetic dipole !!!).  Perhaps one of you can help ?

Another good question to consider is whether moving a ferromagnetic from
500 to 2000 gauss will always take the same amount of work independently of
the force VS. distance distribution (a.k.a.  F-d phase)  ???   The is
definitively false in the voltage VS. current analogy.


PS.

 I am sorry Horace will have to suffer from reading this hopeless EM OU
stuff...



At 09:33 AM 5/6/97 -0800, you wrote:
>
>I don't doubt it either, but so far there is no indication of ou, only
>gravity and magnetic potential wells acting together.  I'd like to hear
>from the replicators.  Why aren't they posting?  Come on replicators, let's
>not be sheepish!  8^)
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 19:07:40 1997
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Most of the data between the replicators is exchanged on Greg's private
mailing list.  I would gladly share the details with you if it is OK with
Greg  (...or perhaps he could copy you with the email exchanges from the
list's log...)


For myself I can say that I have replicated Greg's lift with an 8" ramp
(NdFeB) to a height of 2" with NO kinetic energy input.  Furthermore I can
vouch that Greg's setup doesn't suffer from the imperceivable "entrance
pumping" like the TOMI device did.  I have constructed 2 identical ramps
yet I was unable to close the loop.  The possibility of an egineering error
on my part still remains.

The only possible flaw with this device is the POSSIBILITY that the energy
lost during the back attraction (ie. force integrated over distance) is
equal to the work done by the forward attraction like the conventional
theory predicts.  I am unable to prove/disprove this mathematically since
it is beyond my ability to come up with an equation of mechanical
attraction VS. distance from a N-S magnetic gap (no it is not 1/d^3 like
with a single magnetic dipole !!!).  Perhaps one of you can help ?

Another good question to consider is whether moving a ferromagnetic from
500 to 2000 gauss will always take the same amount of work independently of
the force VS. distance distribution (a.k.a.  F-d phase)  ???   The is
definitively false in the voltage VS. current analogy.


PS.

 I am sorry Horace will have to suffer from reading this hopeless EM OU
stuff...



At 09:33 AM 5/6/97 -0800, you wrote:
>
>I don't doubt it either, but so far there is no indication of ou, only
>gravity and magnetic potential wells acting together.  I'd like to hear
>from the replicators.  Why aren't they posting?  Come on replicators, let's
>not be sheepish!  8^)
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 23:18:28 1997
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From: "John R. Tooker" <jrtooker@freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
To: "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Microwaves!
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Well, aside from a *really powerful* K band police radar jammer, you could
possibly research a way to use the klystron setup to produce useable
amounts of steam for a steam engine powered automobile, or electrical
generator.
Any thoughts, anybody?
John


On Mon, 5 May 1997, Hawkeye wrote:

> 
> I have a old microwave and I want to know what can I use it for? (Other than the norm. and the water-powered mower.)
> 
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 23:19:48 1997
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Well, aside from a *really powerful* K band police radar jammer, you could
possibly research a way to use the klystron setup to produce useable
amounts of steam for a steam engine powered automobile, or electrical
generator.
Any thoughts, anybody?
John


On Mon, 5 May 1997, Hawkeye wrote:

> 
> I have a old microwave and I want to know what can I use it for? (Other than the norm. and the water-powered mower.)
> 
> 


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May  6 23:55:51 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 02:49:06 -0400 (EDT)
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
cc: fepps@mail1.halcyon.com
Subject: Re : Help about : Earth-Gyro Power Transducer Patent
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On 06/05/1997 22:36:47  , I wrote :

<< Hi All,
 
 Does someone has been able to download this patent at :
     
       http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5313850
 
 The graphics file of this patent at IBM site seems corrupted ( ?? ), I would
 be very grateful, If someone would sent this file to me...
  >>

Hi All,

Today, I have been able to download this patent, the IBM patent server work
fine again. It is a very interesting patent, and I suggest you to read
it.....

Truly,

Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846

------------------------------------------------------------------------
5313850 : Earth/gyro power transducer 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
INVENTORS:Finvold; Rodger C., San Diego, CA 921176

ABSTRACT:   This specification describes a completely new and different
concept, method, mechanization, apparatus configuration and sequencing
procedure for obtaining commercially useful energy and power, namely: the use
of a gyroscope to generate output power from the earth's stored inertial
rotational (flywheel) energy by fixing the housing of the gyroscope to the
earth and using the rotation of the earth relative to the gyroscope's
spatially stable rotor/gimbal assembly to rotate the input shaft(s) of a
power transducer(s). This provides a power-output stroke over a near 180o
precession excursion (near pole-to-pole alignment) until the rotor spin axis
of the gyroscope is nearly aligned with the polar axis of the earth.
Re-precession torques are then created on the inner gimbal within the
gyroscope to re-orient the rotor spin axis vector direction by re-precessing
the rotor spin by somewhat more than 180o to the near polar alignment
direction required for the resumption of power output in a manner requiring
essentially zero energy and power to provide relatively continuous, but
intermittent, power output generation along with a multi-unit assembly for
producing continuous uninterrupted power output. An "Advanced Concept" based
on rate gyro characteristics showing promise of enhanced performance is
included. 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 01:03:51 1997
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Subject: Re: Microwaves!
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At 05:40 PM 5/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
>I have a old microwave and I want to know what can I use it for? (Other
than the norm. and the water-powered mower.)
>
>
>Try setting it up to zap police radar traps
A story has done the circuit here where an Australian air force teck type
took a radar
microwave transmitter from an old canberra bomber and used to fry the victorian
police speed traps

might be a bit difficult now though with police using laser guns however.

Geoff
http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel/

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 01:11:04 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: Microwaves!

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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Subject: Re: Microwaves!
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At 05:40 PM 5/5/97 -0500, you wrote:
>I have a old microwave and I want to know what can I use it for? (Other
than the norm. and the water-powered mower.)
>
>
>Try setting it up to zap police radar traps
A story has done the circuit here where an Australian air force teck type
took a radar
microwave transmitter from an old canberra bomber and used to fry the victorian
police speed traps

might be a bit difficult now though with police using laser guns however.

Geoff
http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel/


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 02:33:12 1997
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From: "John R. Tooker" <jrtooker@freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Microwaves!
In-Reply-To: <199705070929.TAA09608@main.murray.net.au>
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> A story has done the circuit here where an Australian air force teck type
> took a radar
> microwave transmitter from an old canberra bomber and used to fry the victorian
> police speed traps
> 
> might be a bit difficult now though with police using laser guns however.
In Alberta, the police are experimenting with the laser radar. I've seen
plans, and toyed with some ideas for circuits that can modulate laser
diodes, such as ones found in cd players, to jam that kind of radar.
However, in many areas, at least in North America, both X and K band radar
units are still in wide useage. As well, Ka band radar is used in certain
models of the "photo radar". Microwave ovens work at a frequency that
excites the water molecules in, well, anything that is placed inside the
oven. I forget the frequency, but due to research I've done on radar and
stealth tech, I know that it falls within the K microwave band. K band
radar is more often used as "highway" radar, as it lends itself to the
longer straightline distances. Consequently, if one knows that the police
in ones area use K band radar (a fact that can be ascertained by taking a
gander at a unit, and looking up it's specs in a library), one can jigger
up an effective radar blaster, if one knows some high school electronics.
John

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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: Microwaves!

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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Microwaves!
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> A story has done the circuit here where an Australian air force teck type
> took a radar
> microwave transmitter from an old canberra bomber and used to fry the victorian
> police speed traps
> 
> might be a bit difficult now though with police using laser guns however.
In Alberta, the police are experimenting with the laser radar. I've seen
plans, and toyed with some ideas for circuits that can modulate laser
diodes, such as ones found in cd players, to jam that kind of radar.
However, in many areas, at least in North America, both X and K band radar
units are still in wide useage. As well, Ka band radar is used in certain
models of the "photo radar". Microwave ovens work at a frequency that
excites the water molecules in, well, anything that is placed inside the
oven. I forget the frequency, but due to research I've done on radar and
stealth tech, I know that it falls within the K microwave band. K band
radar is more often used as "highway" radar, as it lends itself to the
longer straightline distances. Consequently, if one knows that the police
in ones area use K band radar (a fact that can be ascertained by taking a
gander at a unit, and looking up it's specs in a library), one can jigger
up an effective radar blaster, if one knows some high school electronics.
John


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 03:15:09 1997
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Out here in deep dark South Africa we have law prohibiting the Traffic
Police from using Radar. Something about not been certain which car was
speeding I think. No here they string two tubes across the surface of
the road. When the car crosses the tubes then the air in the air is
squeezed out and triggers a timer.

What makes things even more peculiar is that they trap most times at the
same place.
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 06:32:54 1997
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Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 08:29:31 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <199705071329.IAA11756@firefly.prairienet.org>
From: w9sz@prairienet.org (Zack Widup)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Microwaves!
Reply-To: w9sz@prairienet.org
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>
>
>Well, aside from a *really powerful* K band police radar jammer, you could
>possibly research a way to use the klystron setup to produce useable
>amounts of steam for a steam engine powered automobile, or electrical
>generator.
>Any thoughts, anybody?
>John
>
>
>On Mon, 5 May 1997, Hawkeye wrote:
>
>> 
>> I have a old microwave and I want to know what can I use it for? (Other than the norm. and the water-powered mower.)
>> 

Most of the microwave ovens (in the U.S., anyway) use magnetrons and 
operate in the S band (~ 2.4 GHz).

Some radio amateurs have successfully phase-locked a magnetron to 2304 
MHz and use it with a dish antenna to operate what we call EME 
(Earth-Moon-Earth, or moonbounce) communication on this band.

I haven't tried this yet but have an article of how to construct the 
phase-locking equipment. It isn't simple and it isn't cheap!

Zack


--

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 07:04:26 1997
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Message-ID: <01BC5AB4.79435440@ip79.ts3.phx.inficad.com>
From: Reed Huish <reed@zenergy.com>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: What's new with DePalma
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 21:40:58 -0700
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BC5AB4.79B13140
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A word about the latest "bad press" about DePalma:
These recent posts originated with ZENergy company, a former backer of=20
DePalma. These people have a good history of trying to exploit =
Scientists=20
for there knowledge and then discarding them.  When DePalma realized =
this=20
pulled out from the deal they sent a group of Foriegn Nationals =
(illegally)=20
to his home in New Zealand to confiscate the machines which they had =
funded.

This is not a forum for attack, but since the issue was raised, I will =
clarify.  Two of the principals of Zenergy appx. 4 years ago formed a =
company to support DePalma's technology.  They helped DePlama obtain New =
Zealand citizenship and invested substantial funds in his technology.  =
After delays and excuses by DePalma, the investors had to obtain a court =
order through proper legal channels to even see (let alone test) the =
machine they funded.  At best, the machine tested 70% efficiency. There =
was no unique phenomena.  DePalma's N-machine is not an over-unity =
device nor ever has been.  Tom Valone has written an excellent book on =
this subject, called The Homopolar Handbook. =20

All the documentation, test reports, and contracts are available for =
review if anyone desires to contact us for copies.

If the machine really does work, lets see an independent lab report to =
prove it.

- Reed Huish
  Zenergy Corporation
  http://zenergy.com


------ =_NextPart_000_01BC5AB4.79B13140
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 07:10:52 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
RE: What's new with DePalma

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

--- Returned message ---

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From: Reed Huish <reed@zenergy.com>
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Subject: RE: What's new with DePalma
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BC5AB4.79B13140
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A word about the latest "bad press" about DePalma:
These recent posts originated with ZENergy company, a former backer of=20
DePalma. These people have a good history of trying to exploit =
Scientists=20
for there knowledge and then discarding them.  When DePalma realized =
this=20
pulled out from the deal they sent a group of Foriegn Nationals =
(illegally)=20
to his home in New Zealand to confiscate the machines which they had =
funded.

This is not a forum for attack, but since the issue was raised, I will =
clarify.  Two of the principals of Zenergy appx. 4 years ago formed a =
company to support DePalma's technology.  They helped DePlama obtain New =
Zealand citizenship and invested substantial funds in his technology.  =
After delays and excuses by DePalma, the investors had to obtain a court =
order through proper legal channels to even see (let alone test) the =
machine they funded.  At best, the machine tested 70% efficiency. There =
was no unique phenomena.  DePalma's N-machine is not an over-unity =
device nor ever has been.  Tom Valone has written an excellent book on =
this subject, called The Homopolar Handbook. =20

All the documentation, test reports, and contracts are available for =
review if anyone desires to contact us for copies.

If the machine really does work, lets see an independent lab report to =
prove it.

- Reed Huish
  Zenergy Corporation
  http://zenergy.com


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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 10:00:12 1997
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Message-Id: <33707BA7.4D7D@mail.halcyon.com>
Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 05:55:03 -0700
From: "Fred B. Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>
Organization: Pegasus Products
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Cc: egel@main.murray.net.au
Subject: The Smith coil
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Hi Geoff and all,

   Here is some info about the Smith Coil

> The sort information I am looking for is construction type details.
 > like what size wire,spacing, diameter of windings ,type of winding
> formers(plastic cardboard wood ect, vanish or not vanish ect  ,frequency
> required to make these
> things do as others seem to have claimed.
> power supply and what I can expect to happen when they are constucted.
> 
> Like I said before any help gratefully received.

CONSTRUCTION

  Central core: ferrite, the standard ferrite rods "an inch and a half
in diameter and nine or ten inches in length".

   "The coil winding is composed of insulated wire, either double cotton
covered or enameled.  Generally, the size of the wire has been given as
#18 gauge copper, although aluminum, iron, and even silver have also
been used.  The coil is caduceus wound-- caducueus meaning that it is
wound with two wires-- the wires opposite each other around the core,
and these two wires crossing each other on two opposite sides of the
core's diameter with each complete turn.  Hence, the coil when created
will have two rows of bumps on it.  These bumps willl be opposite one
another and on each side of the coil, formed where the two wires cross. 
Great care should be taken in making this winding exact, so that these
"crossovers" (bumps) remain in a straight line on opposite sides of the
core. Another way of winding the coil can be used by applying additional
care and forming a long, slow, two-sided spiral of these bumps around
the core. As far as I have been able to ascertain, the coil is but one
layer of wire thick.  I have heard of no multilayered Smith Coils...
...It is readily understandible that this type of coil can be wound only
by hand because the winder continually needs to keep the "twist" out of
the two winding wires.  This twist comes from the winding process
itself. It proves much easier to keep the winding wires straight if two
persons wind the coil together-- one doing the winding of the coil, the
other "unwinding" the twist!...

EFFECTS

"...The coils are most adaptable in the radio and/or electronic fields. 
In the radio it had been indicated that the coil is adptable for both
transmission and reception of electromagnetic signals of both terrestrai
land extraterrestrial origin.  I have never witnessed the actual
rcxeption of extraterrestrail signals but I have listened to tape
recordings..the messages recieved were not in words but in sounds of
various lengths, like a code...
...A man who has had much first-hand experience with the Smith Coil in
terrestrial radio work, and who was for some time in direct
communication with Mr. Smith, observed, "I use mine as an antenna on 20
meters.  I communicate with stations in all  parts of the USA and Canada
with it--  using it ONLY as an antenna, I even took my other antennas
down so they would not be radiating.  It has an infinite number of dips
when connected to a grid dip meter.  Ordinarily, a coil has a dip on its
fundamental, on the half wave and the third harmonic.  But this one had
an infinite number, randomly spaced in the spectrum. The Smith coil has
zero impedance! And infinite resonance! Thiss is impossible-- but true! 
It acts as a a dead short on any other frequency than its own! It acts a
dead short on a reciever.  One coil cannot be coupled to another, by RF,
AF, or anything.  One will not pick up the signal from another one! This
startled me.  To be honest, I have been baffled by it ever since I got
it!"

   There's a great deal more, but this gives the gist of it.  Hope this
helps!
                                         Fred

Ref
"The Smith Coil" by Gaston Burridge, Psychic Observer, V. XXXV, n. 5, p.
410
Thanks to Reed Huish of Zenergy for supplying the ref!

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 10:05:15 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
The Smith coil

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 05:55:03 -0700
From: "Fred B. Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>
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Hi Geoff and all,

   Here is some info about the Smith Coil

> The sort information I am looking for is construction type details.
 > like what size wire,spacing, diameter of windings ,type of winding
> formers(plastic cardboard wood ect, vanish or not vanish ect  ,frequency
> required to make these
> things do as others seem to have claimed.
> power supply and what I can expect to happen when they are constucted.
> 
> Like I said before any help gratefully received.

CONSTRUCTION

  Central core: ferrite, the standard ferrite rods "an inch and a half
in diameter and nine or ten inches in length".

   "The coil winding is composed of insulated wire, either double cotton
covered or enameled.  Generally, the size of the wire has been given as
#18 gauge copper, although aluminum, iron, and even silver have also
been used.  The coil is caduceus wound-- caducueus meaning that it is
wound with two wires-- the wires opposite each other around the core,
and these two wires crossing each other on two opposite sides of the
core's diameter with each complete turn.  Hence, the coil when created
will have two rows of bumps on it.  These bumps willl be opposite one
another and on each side of the coil, formed where the two wires cross. 
Great care should be taken in making this winding exact, so that these
"crossovers" (bumps) remain in a straight line on opposite sides of the
core. Another way of winding the coil can be used by applying additional
care and forming a long, slow, two-sided spiral of these bumps around
the core. As far as I have been able to ascertain, the coil is but one
layer of wire thick.  I have heard of no multilayered Smith Coils...
...It is readily understandible that this type of coil can be wound only
by hand because the winder continually needs to keep the "twist" out of
the two winding wires.  This twist comes from the winding process
itself. It proves much easier to keep the winding wires straight if two
persons wind the coil together-- one doing the winding of the coil, the
other "unwinding" the twist!...

EFFECTS

"...The coils are most adaptable in the radio and/or electronic fields. 
In the radio it had been indicated that the coil is adptable for both
transmission and reception of electromagnetic signals of both terrestrai
land extraterrestrial origin.  I have never witnessed the actual
rcxeption of extraterrestrail signals but I have listened to tape
recordings..the messages recieved were not in words but in sounds of
various lengths, like a code...
...A man who has had much first-hand experience with the Smith Coil in
terrestrial radio work, and who was for some time in direct
communication with Mr. Smith, observed, "I use mine as an antenna on 20
meters.  I communicate with stations in all  parts of the USA and Canada
with it--  using it ONLY as an antenna, I even took my other antennas
down so they would not be radiating.  It has an infinite number of dips
when connected to a grid dip meter.  Ordinarily, a coil has a dip on its
fundamental, on the half wave and the third harmonic.  But this one had
an infinite number, randomly spaced in the spectrum. The Smith coil has
zero impedance! And infinite resonance! Thiss is impossible-- but true! 
It acts as a a dead short on any other frequency than its own! It acts a
dead short on a reciever.  One coil cannot be coupled to another, by RF,
AF, or anything.  One will not pick up the signal from another one! This
startled me.  To be honest, I have been baffled by it ever since I got
it!"

   There's a great deal more, but this gives the gist of it.  Hope this
helps!
                                         Fred

Ref
"The Smith Coil" by Gaston Burridge, Psychic Observer, V. XXXV, n. 5, p.
410
Thanks to Reed Huish of Zenergy for supplying the ref!


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 10:36:16 1997
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Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 06:28:31 -0700
From: "Fred B. Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>
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Hi Greg,

   Just got around to reading your email of a while back:

> Those of us not frozen concrete or by our budgets, I believe, enjoy
> Horace, Fred and others.  Who knows when the creative mind will one day
> link something Fred mentioned with a posting from Horace and change the
> world.

Thanks a lot for recognizing the true value of cross-pollination and
creative synergy!
                                Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 10:42:10 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Vote of appreciation

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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Hi Greg,

   Just got around to reading your email of a while back:

> Those of us not frozen concrete or by our budgets, I believe, enjoy
> Horace, Fred and others.  Who knows when the creative mind will one day
> link something Fred mentioned with a posting from Horace and change the
> world.

Thanks a lot for recognizing the true value of cross-pollination and
creative synergy!
                                Fred


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 13:01:34 1997
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Message-Id: <199705071946.PAA20611@marlin3.me.mtu.edu>
Subject:  tte
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 15:46:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: "S. Marcel Lizotte" <lizotte@mtu.edu>
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unsubscribe freenrg-l lizotte@mtu.edu
-- 
**************************************************************************
S. Marcel Lizotte      	                      e-mail: lizotte@mtu.edu
(steven)
				              Quote to live by:
Michigan Technological University                "We cannot solve today's
    Fourth Year Scholar of                        problems with the same
     Mechanical Engineering		          level of thinking that
						  created them"
							-Albert Einstein
**************************************************************************

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 13:02:59 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
tte

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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-- 
**************************************************************************
S. Marcel Lizotte      	                      e-mail: lizotte@mtu.edu
(steven)
				              Quote to live by:
Michigan Technological University                "We cannot solve today's
    Fourth Year Scholar of                        problems with the same
     Mechanical Engineering		          level of thinking that
						  created them"
							-Albert Einstein
**************************************************************************


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 13:13:53 1997
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From: "Jim Shaffer, Jr." <jshaffer@csrlink.net>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: The Smith coil
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 15:57:18 -0400
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I *still* say this sounds a lot more like a Contrawound Toroidal
Helical Antenna than not.

"I don't want the world -- I just want your half."
	--T.M.B.G.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 13:16:47 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: The Smith coil

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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I *still* say this sounds a lot more like a Contrawound Toroidal
Helical Antenna than not.

"I don't want the world -- I just want your half."
	--T.M.B.G.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 13:29:29 1997
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Message-ID: <33710F44.36BC@tiac.net>
Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 16:24:52 -0700
From: Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
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tmwsiy@mail2.wilmington.net wrote:
> 
> FIrst of all the Sunburst Machine operates on exactly the same
> principles as Tewari's machine (which operates on DePalma's
> principles) his (Tewari's) latest machies are the only ones built on these
> principles which offer overunity in the strictest sense (i.e. more
> electrical output than input).
> In the case of the Sunburst machine in
> a strict sense, It was not overunity because it required power for
> the electro-magnet (all the new machines use permanent magnets)
> and the A.C. drive motor. But the DIFFERENCE in energy
> required to merely spin the charged electromagnet with an open
> circuit and that required when closing the loop and generating 2 or 3 kilowatts
> was about a 4 or 5 to 1 ratio out to in.

But a number of people have build homopolar generators using permenent
magnets, and these have not reached 100% efficiency, much less greater
efficiencies.

It seems that homopolar generators are fully conservative.  Are you
claiming that this is not the case?
 
> I am not at liberty to discuss DePalma's current plans other than is
> well and in New Zealand.
> 
> A word about the latest "bad press" about DePalma:
> These recent posts originated with ZENergy company, a former backer of
> DePalma. These people have a good history of trying to exploit Scientists
> for there knowledge and then discarding them.  When DePalma realized this
> pulled out from the deal they sent a group of Foriegn Nationals (illegally)
> to his home in New Zealand to confiscate the machines which they had funded.

Not all the 'press' about DePalma has come from ZENergy I beleive. 
There are a number of permanent magnet homopolar generators that have
been very carefully tested.
 
> I nor Dr. DePalma is in the buisness of providing plans for
> over-unity machines at risk of being shot, however as I said all the
> information required to build such a machine is contained in the
> papers and in the excepts from Tewari's book.
> 
> Eddie

In your opinion, what is it about a permanent magnet homopolar generator
that allows it to operate at efficiencies greater than 100%?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 13:45:31 1997
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Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 16:18:26 -0700
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References: <970503111849_-97920586@emout11.mail.aol.com> <336BE3CD.1503@bciu.k12.pa.us> <336E106D.6DD4@tiac.net> <3371d48b.27121895@mail.eisa.net.au>
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 05 May 1997 09:53:01 -0700, Bob Shannon wrote:
> [snip]
> >Some sort of AC inverters?  What switching devices could possibly
> >withstand the voltages found in a lightning bolt?
> >
> How about simply not withstanding the voltages? At present we put
> lightening rods on our buildings. Why not put a few turns in the cable
> of the conductor that goes to ground, and use it as the primary of a
> transformer. Then draw energy off from the secondary. The voltage drop
> over the primary would be low, but the current is quite high. You
> wouldn't tap a large percentage of the available power, but if your
> lightening rod is the only one, mounted on the highest object for
> miles around, then you should get a fair few strikes during the storm
> season. More a fun approach than practical, I know :).

I agree that inductivly coupling the live bolt to a load appears to be
the most practical solution, but the insulation resistance between
primary and secondary is close to insignificant in the face of a bolt
that just jumpped a arc a few thousand feet or more.

Lightning often fails to take what we think is the path of least
resistance (through the primary to ground) and may well arc over to the
secondary.

UL / CSA approvals could be a problem. ;->

Would the reactance of a primary coil with enough turns to reach a safe
step down ratio be high enough for the high frequancy content of a
lightning bolt to wish to seek some other path than the primary circuit?

As long as we are thinking about lightning, we might want to speculate a
bit about the phenomena of 'whistlers' and the theory of their
production by troposhearic ducting (yeah, right, I but this one, it
sounds like star treknobabble to me!).

If the ducting theory of whistler generation is correct, an artificial
system might duct a high percentage of the bolts energy and deliver it
in a highly coherent form that would be easier to enginner than the bolt
itself.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 15:43:41 1997
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Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 18:24:27 -0400
From: "O'Connor" <poconnor@bciu.k12.pa.us>
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This is really corny, but it has to be said:

I suggest that you use the microwave to make
NACHOS!!! YUM!

-Shannon

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 18:31:38 1997
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Message-ID: <337129F6.6227@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 10:48:46 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Hi All,

Just a short note to all those suggestions to use multi straight ramps
or curved return tracks to close the loop.

I have tried various schemes without success.

What I have found is that with any angled scheme, the ball will not be
able to stay on the "Neutral Line" of side to side attraction between
the magnet assys and will loose energy because of the much larger side
ways attractions very quickly.

Seems angled schemes are doomed to fail.  The ball must stay on the
"Neutral Line".

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 18:53:33 1997
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From: tmwsiy@mail2.wilmington.net
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I will respond to Bob Shannon and Reed Huish in one post...

< Reed Huish <reed@zenergy.com>> wrote:

> This is not a forum for attack, but since the issue was raised, I 
will clarify.  Two of the principals of Zenergy appx. 4 years ago 
formed a company to support DePalma's technology.  They helped ...

I will be finished talking about the legal battle that ensued from 
DePalma's involvement with members of ZENergy by stating that if 
anyone from thier former company sets foot on New Zealand soil they 
are at risk of being arrested by standing court order over the 
confiscation of the machine. Which was later sold to members of New Zealand 
mafia. 

> All the documentation, test reports, and contracts are available for review if 
>anyone desires to contact us for copies.If the machine really does work, lets
> see an independent lab report to prove it.

Paramahamsa Tewari has built machines and performed tests on the 
latest generation of N-machines with unity occuring at about 4000 rpm
with a 4-1 out to in ratio at 6000 rpm Someone who works for the 
atomic energy board of India is pretty independant from DePalma.


Bob Shannon wrote:
>In your opinion, what is it about a permanent magnet homopolar
>generator that allows it to operate at efficiencies greater than 100%?

There is a newly discovered principle called compensation that allows 
for the "drag" ensued by the elctricity being genertated to be 
compensated for (has to be series machine like N-1 and after) 
by allowing electricity to flow opposite the original 
direction. this creates a similar effect to coaxial 
cable which the purpose is to cancel out any field created by the 
electricty in the center wire by the counterpoise in the metal 
"sheath". The machine does not respond 
any differently in regards to power consumption with this 
configuration. ALso a nice side benifit is the voltage doubling with 
each set of these compensators one uses. 


I hope this helps...

Eddie      

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 18:59:32 1997
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Message-ID: <33712FCE.D4A@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 11:13:42 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Bob Shannon wrote:
> 
> But a number of people have build homopolar generators using permenent
> magnets, and these have not reached 100% efficiency, much less greater
> efficiencies.
> 
> It seems that homopolar generators are fully conservative.  Are you
> claiming that this is not the case?
> 
> In your opinion, what is it about a permanent magnet homopolar generator
> that allows it to operate at efficiencies greater than 100%?

Hi Bob,

I have also reviewed the web site and have found several inaccurate
descriptions.  I would support your comments on Homopolars, they are not
OU.  The generated current and its related magnetic field causes source
interactions that are not OU.

Nothing I saw or read on the web site could go OU.

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 19:18:57 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
DePalma discussion continued...

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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I will respond to Bob Shannon and Reed Huish in one post...

< Reed Huish <reed@zenergy.com>> wrote:

> This is not a forum for attack, but since the issue was raised, I 
will clarify.  Two of the principals of Zenergy appx. 4 years ago 
formed a company to support DePalma's technology.  They helped ...

I will be finished talking about the legal battle that ensued from 
DePalma's involvement with members of ZENergy by stating that if 
anyone from thier former company sets foot on New Zealand soil they 
are at risk of being arrested by standing court order over the 
confiscation of the machine. Which was later sold to members of New Zealand 
mafia. 

> All the documentation, test reports, and contracts are available for review if 
>anyone desires to contact us for copies.If the machine really does work, lets
> see an independent lab report to prove it.

Paramahamsa Tewari has built machines and performed tests on the 
latest generation of N-machines with unity occuring at about 4000 rpm
with a 4-1 out to in ratio at 6000 rpm Someone who works for the 
atomic energy board of India is pretty independant from DePalma.


Bob Shannon wrote:
>In your opinion, what is it about a permanent magnet homopolar
>generator that allows it to operate at efficiencies greater than 100%?

There is a newly discovered principle called compensation that allows 
for the "drag" ensued by the elctricity being genertated to be 
compensated for (has to be series machine like N-1 and after) 
by allowing electricity to flow opposite the original 
direction. this creates a similar effect to coaxial 
cable which the purpose is to cancel out any field created by the 
electricty in the center wire by the counterpoise in the metal 
"sheath". The machine does not respond 
any differently in regards to power consumption with this 
configuration. ALso a nice side benifit is the voltage doubling with 
each set of these compensators one uses. 


I hope this helps...

Eddie      


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 19:27:36 1997
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Message-ID: <3372204D.5EC9@dove.net.au>
Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 11:49:49 -0700
From: "Glenville T. Sawyer" <gsawyer@dove.net.au>
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Organization: Outback Communications - Lighting, Theatre Concerts and Special Events.
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I should clarify what the Australian "Speed" RADAR (used) to be ..
 Most of the systems operated in the 10 Gig region.
 Domestic and Commercial Microwave ovens operate in the 2.3-2.6 Gig
 part of the spectrum, I do not think that you would achieve a great
deal of success attempting to "fool" a Fuzz RADAR with a modified
microwave.

 Yes we heard the story too, I filed it in the same basket as the ...
  " There was this couple out on a lonely road .. not too far from here
.. and the guy gets out and tells his Girl that he will be back shortly
...    Well he is gone for ages ... then She hears a slow
Thump-Thump-Thump on the roof ....... " -
   Yes folks  EVEN WE had the " Headless  Boyfriend " yarn to grow up
with too !.

 As far as "Laser" speed cameras and etc,  did you realise that a
greatly amplified "Remote Control Tester" - can and DOES provide a
usable indication of an upcoming "speed trap"  ?

    Something to ponder while not thinking directly about FREE-NRG !

 Regards,  Glenville.



-- 
Rgds, Glenville T. Sawyer   (  Glen )  gsawyer@dove.net.au
http://dove.net.au/~gsawyer - visit and sign the guestbook
Lighting, Concerts, Special Events & Extra Special Effects

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>I will be finished talking about the legal battle that ensued from=20
>DePalma's involvement with members of ZENergy by stating that if=20
>anyone from thier former company sets foot on New Zealand soil they=20
>are at risk of being arrested by standing court order over the=20
>confiscation of the machine. Which was later sold to members of New =
>Zealand mafia.=20

Eddie:

Actually, we have a letter from the New Zealand police which states that =
no charges have ever existed.  I would be happy to fax you a copy of the =
letter, if desired.  The prototype was advertised in New Energy News and =
other energy journals, which was sold for US$5,000 for scrap value =
(since it didn't work). We later found that we are the latest on a list =
of at least a dozen investors that have put money into DePalma's =
technology with no working (over-unity) machine.  I would love to see =
independent, certified test reports.  Please post them!   Or, I would be =
happy to post our test results.

N-machines were hot in the 80's.  Numerous experimenters have tried to =
reproduce DePalma's claims, but no one seems to be able to get around =
the problem of back torque.  My partner, Mike Fisher, met Tewari in =
India in 1993.  He appears to be a man of great integrity, however, he =
did not demonstrate an over-unity device at that time.  He claims to =
have an o-u device, but we are unaware of any independent test results =
which prove such.  If you have any, please post them for all to see.

Ironically enough, the picture of N-machine on DePalma's web-site (the =
N-1) is stated to be over-unity, but DePalma told Mike that this version =
never was o-u.  And Prof. Kincholoe of Stamford University confirmed =
this.  We would love to see an o-u N-machine, but we fear that unless =
the problem of back torque (Lenz's law) can be overcome, this will never =
be realized.  DePalma claims that his stator-less machine is the =
solution, however, as soon as the output circuit is closed, this output =
circuit becomes, in effect, the stator, and as soon as current is drawn, =
the proportional back torque is developed at the shaft.  Therefore =
preventing the phenomenon of over-unity.

The field of new energy would be served greater if the facts about free =
energy technologies were discussed and this forum not used for character =
assassination.

- Reed Huish
  Zenergy Corp
  http://zenergy.com


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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 21:17:51 1997
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From: Reed Huish <reed@zenergy.com>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: DePalma discussion continued...
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 21:02:57 -0700
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>I will be finished talking about the legal battle that ensued from=20
>DePalma's involvement with members of ZENergy by stating that if=20
>anyone from thier former company sets foot on New Zealand soil they=20
>are at risk of being arrested by standing court order over the=20
>confiscation of the machine. Which was later sold to members of New =
>Zealand mafia.=20

Eddie:

Actually, we have a letter from the New Zealand police which states that =
no charges have ever existed.  I would be happy to fax you a copy of the =
letter, if desired.  The prototype was advertised in New Energy News and =
other energy journals, which was sold for US$5,000 for scrap value =
(since it didn't work). We later found that we are the latest on a list =
of at least a dozen investors that have put money into DePalma's =
technology with no working (over-unity) machine.  I would love to see =
independent, certified test reports.  Please post them!   Or, I would be =
happy to post our test results.

N-machines were hot in the 80's.  Numerous experimenters have tried to =
reproduce DePalma's claims, but no one seems to be able to get around =
the problem of back torque.  My partner, Mike Fisher, met Tewari in =
India in 1993.  He appears to be a man of great integrity, however, he =
did not demonstrate an over-unity device at that time.  He claims to =
have an o-u device, but we are unaware of any independent test results =
which prove such.  If you have any, please post them for all to see.

Ironically enough, the picture of N-machine on DePalma's web-site (the =
N-1) is stated to be over-unity, but DePalma told Mike that this version =
never was o-u.  And Prof. Kincholoe of Stamford University confirmed =
this.  We would love to see an o-u N-machine, but we fear that unless =
the problem of back torque (Lenz's law) can be overcome, this will never =
be realized.  DePalma claims that his stator-less machine is the =
solution, however, as soon as the output circuit is closed, this output =
circuit becomes, in effect, the stator, and as soon as current is drawn, =
the proportional back torque is developed at the shaft.  Therefore =
preventing the phenomenon of over-unity.

The field of new energy would be served greater if the facts about free =
energy technologies were discussed and this forum not used for character =
assassination.

- Reed Huish
  Zenergy Corp
  http://zenergy.com


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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 21:21:57 1997
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Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 00:11:06 -0700
From: Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
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Subject: Re: DePalma discussion continued...
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tmwsiy@mail2.wilmington.net wrote:
 
> I will be finished talking about the legal battle that ensued from
> DePalma's involvement with members of ZENergy by stating that if
> anyone from thier former company sets foot on New Zealand soil they
> are at risk of being arrested by standing court order over the
> confiscation of the machine. Which was later sold to members of New Zealand
> mafia.

Ok, this is really interesting stuff here!

First, there was a claim that "they (ZENergy?) sent a group of Foriegn
Nationals (illegally) to his (Depalma's) home in New Zealand to
confiscate the machines which they had funded".

This was met with the claim that "After delays and excuses by DePalma,
the investors had to obtain a court order through proper legal channels
to even see (let alone test) the machine they funded."

Now, having no associations or interests with either ZENergy or DePalma,
I'm left wondering just what happened that is being described as an
illeagal seizure of a device made by DePalma, but funded by ZENergy,
from DePalma's home.

If it was funded by ZENergy, (both posters have apparently agreed on
this point!) then exactly why was ZENergy's taking possesion of the
device illeagal?  If it was theirs (funded by ZENergy) why is their
taking possesion being described as "confiscation"?  Standing court
orders for arrest?  (This sound better than Newman vs. the PTO.)

Clearly there is a lot more to this story than either poster has
described so far.  And one poster is already finished with this issue?!  

What exactly are the facts here?  

>> All the documentation, test reports, and contracts are available for review if
>> anyone desires to contact us for copies. If the machine really does work, lets
>> see an independent lab report to prove it.
> 
> Paramahamsa Tewari has built machines and performed tests on the
> latest generation of N-machines with unity occuring at about 4000 rpm
> with a 4-1 out to in ratio at 6000 rpm Someone who works for the
> atomic energy board of India is pretty independant from DePalma.

As are the builders (and investors) of many permenent magnet hompolar
generators in a myriad of configurations, none of which supported
DePalma's earlier claims.

As I understand the situation, India is still operating its nuclear
plants, and its fossil fuel plants for power generation, as well as
investing in more of the same.

It's been quite some time scince Tewari built his first (published)
devices.  I wonder what the rest of this story might be?  Suppression,
confiscation, leagal problems, that pesky New Zeland mafia, what?

>From the DePalma web site:  (in relation to the pictured N-1 device)

"This device - and many others like it - have been proven to possess
"over-unity" characteristics, ie: the power output is more than 100% of
the input."

The exact device shown as the N-1 design has appeared in a free energy
publication quite a few years ago.  There has been a very great deal of
interest, time and money expended on N machines scince that publication
(which included test data on Sunburst).

So where exactly are the 'many others' that have "been proven to possess
"over-unity characteristics..."?  The vast weight of evidence suggests
that these are fully conservative devices.

There is no valid reason for a truly working device to have any lack of
supporting evidence based on conventional, accepted testing methods. 
 
> Bob Shannon wrote:
> >In your opinion, what is it about a permanent magnet homopolar
> >generator that allows it to operate at efficiencies greater than 100%?
> 
> There is a newly discovered principle called compensation that allows
> for the "drag" ensued by the elctricity being genertated to be
> compensated for (has to be series machine like N-1 and after)
> by allowing electricity to flow opposite the original
> direction. this creates a similar effect to coaxial
> cable which the purpose is to cancel out any field created by the
> electricty in the center wire by the counterpoise in the metal
> "sheath". The machine does not respond
> any differently in regards to power consumption with this
> configuration. ALso a nice side benifit is the voltage doubling with
> each set of these compensators one uses.
> 
> I hope this helps...

Err, is this flux cancellation, is it actual vector superposition, or
simple field distrotion?  No, no, never mind, lets not go there just
yet.....(ever heard of a scalar wave?)

So your adding more opposing flux to get rid of the opposing flux that
limits operation to the under unity realm?  And this is how the machine
'illegally confiscated' from DePalma by 'Forgin Nationals', and then
sold to the local mafia by the people who had actually paid for its
development works eh?

Don't get me wrong here, it's not at all that I do not think 'free'
energy is impossible.  I am not a skeptic at all, but I am aware that
there are far more claimed free energy machines than there are working
(or workable) designs. 

DePalma's web site shows an old machine, but no hard data.  So where is
the data on this 'newly discovered principle', which is also not all
that new?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 22:04:29 1997
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From: ce3cwf = felix meyer <ce3cwf@cmet.net>
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Patent  5 313 850 pictures
References: <33707BA7.4D7D@mail.halcyon.com>
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US Patent 5'313'850 pictures
----------------------------
Someone was asking for these pictures. I lost this name due to computer
faulure.
I could download them without any problem.
If you want a copy then send me a mail.

Regards

Felix Meyer

mailto:ce3cwf@cmet.net

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 22:16:26 1997
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From: mindtech@om.com.au
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 14:58:30 +1000
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Microwaves!
Resent-Message-ID: <"OwvsG2.0.m4.N4MSp"@mx1>
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>gander at a unit, and looking up it's specs in a library), one can jigger
>up an effective radar blaster, if one knows some high school electronics.
>

The March issue of "Electronics World" magazine has an article on how
qualified technicans can convert microwave ovens to laboratory use.

Peter Nielsen

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 22:22:50 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: Microwaves!

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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From: mindtech@om.com.au
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>gander at a unit, and looking up it's specs in a library), one can jigger
>up an effective radar blaster, if one knows some high school electronics.
>

The March issue of "Electronics World" magazine has an article on how
qualified technicans can convert microwave ovens to laboratory use.

Peter Nielsen


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 22:51:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA05155; Wed, 7 May 1997 22:49:40 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 22:49:40 -0700
From: Bmd2323@aol.com
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 01:49:05 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970508014903_-1433691277@emout05.mail.aol.com>
To: Freenrg-L@eskimo.com
Subject: Rex Research
Resent-Message-ID: <"98iS43.0.QG1.pbMSp"@mx1>
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Howdy!

Have you ever heard of Rex Research?  They had a catalog offering items
similar to those you've got here.  I have an old address for them, but its
out of date and the phone number I have for them is no good either.  Would at
least like to be able to track down some of their items if possible.  Please
let me know if you know anything.  Thanks.  I can be reached at
Bmd2323@aol.com.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 23:20:14 1997
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To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com,
        freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Simple OU Device
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At 10:48 AM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>Just a short note to all those suggestions to use multi straight ramps
>or curved return tracks to close the loop.
>
>I have tried various schemes without success.
>
>What I have found is that with any angled scheme, the ball will not be
>able to stay on the "Neutral Line" of side to side attraction between
>the magnet assys and will loose energy because of the much larger side
>ways attractions very quickly.
>
>Seems angled schemes are doomed to fail.  The ball must stay on the
>"Neutral Line".
>
>--
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax


If you have a couple of the black boxes maybe you could try them in series.
If there is any o-u performance, enough boxes in series might eventually
give enough energy for a return trip.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 23:22:19 1997
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Message-Id: <199705080606.XAA10755@claim.goldrush.com>
From: "WESLY" <crosiar@GOLDRUSH.COM>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: NEWMAN CAPACITORS
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 23:34:43 -0700
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To Greg East:
  If you are looking for capacitors, I can get you some large 1.5
microfarad caps rated at 33,000 volts for 20 to 40 dollars each. The only
problem is that they weigh 150 to 250 lbs each. I don't have your email
handy so let me know if you are interested.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 23:26:32 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
NEWMAN CAPACITORS

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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To Greg East:
  If you are looking for capacitors, I can get you some large 1.5
microfarad caps rated at 33,000 volts for 20 to 40 dollars each. The only
problem is that they weigh 150 to 250 lbs each. I don't have your email
handy so let me know if you are interested.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 23:34:46 1997
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Message-ID: <33717347.4CE@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 16:01:35 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: Horace Heffner <hheffner@corecom.net>
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Simple OU Device
References: <v01530500af9721cfc8ef@[199.237.131.249]>
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Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> At 10:48 AM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote:
> >Hi All,
> >
> >Just a short note to all those suggestions to use multi straight ramps
> >or curved return tracks to close the loop.
> >
> >I have tried various schemes without success.
> >
> >What I have found is that with any angled scheme, the ball will not be
> >able to stay on the "Neutral Line" of side to side attraction between
> >the magnet assys and will loose energy because of the much larger side
> >ways attractions very quickly.
> >
> >Seems angled schemes are doomed to fail.  The ball must stay on the
> >"Neutral Line".
> >
> If you have a couple of the black boxes maybe you could try them in series.
> If there is any o-u performance, enough boxes in series might eventually
> give enough energy for a return trip.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

Hi Horace,

Isn't a good engineering solution as the "Tuning" of the exit is
sensitive to the ball speed (too much and it leaved the exit track and
is attracted to one of the side magnets).

While the ramps are simple to build and seem to indicate OU, I feel they
are NOT the way to close the loop.  My testing seems to indicate that
out of a vertical lift and drop of 20mm, I can recover around 2-3mm
worth of energy on exit.  For a 12mm steel ball, that's not a lot of
energy to play with.

They can, however, teach us about what is going on and why.

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 23:38:07 1997
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To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com,
        freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Simple OU Device
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At 10:48 AM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>Just a short note to all those suggestions to use multi straight ramps
>or curved return tracks to close the loop.
>
>I have tried various schemes without success.
>
>What I have found is that with any angled scheme, the ball will not be
>able to stay on the "Neutral Line" of side to side attraction between
>the magnet assys and will loose energy because of the much larger side
>ways attractions very quickly.
>
>Seems angled schemes are doomed to fail.  The ball must stay on the
>"Neutral Line".
>
>--
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax


If you have a couple of the black boxes maybe you could try them in series.
If there is any o-u performance, enough boxes in series might eventually
give enough energy for a return trip.

If you can accumulate enough energy to get far enough away from a box to
turn a corner, then you could line up black boxes on the return trip to
make the final corner as well, or you could just make a big circle of
magnet boxes.

If you had one working you could easily rent a business space and charge
$10 admission just to see the world's first successful perpetual motion
machine. That should cover your patenting, development, and marketing costs
till you really got going.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May  7 23:46:33 1997
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To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Simple OU Device
Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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At 4:01 PM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>>
>> At 10:48 AM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote:
>> >Hi All,
>> >
>> >Just a short note to all those suggestions to use multi straight ramps
>> >or curved return tracks to close the loop.
>> >
>> >I have tried various schemes without success.
>> >
>> >What I have found is that with any angled scheme, the ball will not be
>> >able to stay on the "Neutral Line" of side to side attraction between
>> >the magnet assys and will loose energy because of the much larger side
>> >ways attractions very quickly.
>> >
>> >Seems angled schemes are doomed to fail.  The ball must stay on the
>> >"Neutral Line".
>> >
>> If you have a couple of the black boxes maybe you could try them in series.
>> If there is any o-u performance, enough boxes in series might eventually
>> give enough energy for a return trip.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Horace Heffner
>
>Hi Horace,
>
>Isn't a good engineering solution as the "Tuning" of the exit is
>sensitive to the ball speed (too much and it leaved the exit track and
>is attracted to one of the side magnets).

Use the speed to gain potential energy. You could even put the box on an
upwar incline if necessary to avoid excessive speed. The the ball will not
leave the track.


>
>While the ramps are simple to build and seem to indicate OU, I feel they
>are NOT the way to close the loop.  My testing seems to indicate that
>out of a vertical lift and drop of 20mm, I can recover around 2-3mm
>worth of energy on exit.  For a 12mm steel ball, that's not a lot of
>energy to play with.

That's plenty. Ten boxes and you have a rise of 2-3 cm. that's plenty of
elevation to roll around a corner - plus an initial 10 m of track to get
away from the box.


>
>They can, however, teach us about what is going on and why.
>
>--
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  8 00:00:55 1997
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Message-ID: <33717709.B23@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 16:17:37 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> If you had one working you could easily rent a business space and charge
> $10 admission just to see the world's first successful perpetual motion
> machine. That should cover your patenting, development, and marketing costs
> till you really got going.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

Hi Horace,

And to think I thought you were the straight man.  Silly me.

At least now I know that you only believe in "OU according to Horace".

Join the discussion group, spectics keep us ALL honest.


-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  8 00:25:42 1997
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Subject: Re: FREE COPIES of my Encyclopedia of free energy
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>To those that have asked  I will be from the 24 of May 97  be placing
a seperate page from the html version of my encyclopedia of free energy with 
a new page replacing it each week,  so that it can be download by you and
stored on your disk or hard disk to give you a complete up to date free version.
Period that  this will run for will be approx twenty weeks
no repeats will occurr in those weeks.
Unfortunately I cannot email those page seperately to users.
For more information check out my website
http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel

Geoff

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  8 00:31:19 1997
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Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 100405,1410
Re: FREE COPIES of my Encyclopedia of free energy

Your message could not be delivered as addressed.

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>To those that have asked  I will be from the 24 of May 97  be placing
a seperate page from the html version of my encyclopedia of free energy with 
a new page replacing it each week,  so that it can be download by you and
stored on your disk or hard disk to give you a complete up to date free version.
Period that  this will run for will be approx twenty weeks
no repeats will occurr in those weeks.
Unfortunately I cannot email those page seperately to users.
For more information check out my website
http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel

Geoff


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  8 01:00:04 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 03:54:24 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970508035422_-699555199@emout10.mail.aol.com>
To: ce3cwf@cmet.net
cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re : Re: Patent 5 313 850 pictures
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On 08/05/1997 08:09:39  , you wrote :

<< Suj :	Re: Patent 5 313 850 pictures
 Date :	08/05/1997 08:09:39  
 From:	ce3cwf@cmet.net (ce3cwf = felix meyer)
  US Patent 5'313'850 pictures
 ----------------------------
 Someone was asking for these pictures. I lost this name due to computer
 faulure.
 I could download them without any problem.
 If you want a copy then send me a mail.
 
 Regards
 
 Felix Meyer
  >>

Hi Felix,

Thanks for your help, 
I have been able to download this patent, the IBM patent server work
fine again. It is a very interesting patent, and I have found another patent
about gyroscopic energy.....: 5024112 : Gyroscopic apparatus

I have an italian document (in paper form) coming from Prof. Alberto
Basso-Ricci ( Institute " L.Settembrini" Milan - Italy ). He has built and
experimented successfully a "antigravitional" engine based on the same
principle, I have some difficulties to translate the italian text, but the
drawing, pictures and formulas show clearly that this device seems work. He
use 3 gyroscopes in rotation to thrust the apparatus upward. The device use
3+1 electrical motors.
I have scanned some pictures and schemes for those are interested, simply ask
me...  :-)

Truly,

Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846

-----------------------------------------------------
5024112 : Gyroscopic apparatus 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
INVENTORS:Kidd; ALexander D., Barnhill, Scotland

ABSTRACT:   
* A gyroscopic apparatus (100), having application as a prime mover,
comprises a pair of discs (102) disposed opposite one another with arms (104)
rotatably supporting the discs (102) connected at a pivot point, the pivot
axis thereof lying in a plane midway between the discs (102). A drive
arrangement (124, 126, 180) operates to spin the discs (102) in opposite
directions while simultaneously rotating the whole assembly of discs (102)
and arms (104) about a second axis in the same plane as, but perpendicular
to, the pivot axis. A camming arrangement (144, 146, 152) working in
conjunction with the rotation about the second axis periodically forces the
spinning discs (102) to pivot about the pivot axis to thereby generate a
force along the second axis which can be used to perform useful work. 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  8 01:54:42 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 04:49:18 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970508044917_-365827060@emout18.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, fepps@mail1.halcyon.com
Subject: About Epsilon0/MuO
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Hi Fred and all,

Please, I would like to known the answers about some questions bellow, could
someone help me : 

1) Do you know a mean for modifying the permitivity (epsilon 0) or the
permeability ( mu 0 ) of the VACUUM in a defined space volume dV ( without
material inside ) ?

2) Do you think that a high stress of magnetic energy in compression, for
instance in two N-N poles in repulsion, can modify the main characteristics
of the vacuum "constants" (epsilon0/mu0) ?

Thanks for your help,

Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  8 10:53:27 1997
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From: Reed Huish <reed@zenergy.com>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: DePalma Discussion
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:47:10 -0700
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>I will be finished talking about the legal battle that ensued from=20
>DePalma's involvement with members of ZENergy by stating that if=20
>anyone from thier former company sets foot on New Zealand soil they=20
>are at risk of being arrested by standing court order over the=20
>confiscation of the machine. Which was later sold to members of New =
>Zealand mafia.=20

Eddie:

Actually, we have a letter from the New Zealand police which states that =
no charges have ever existed.  I would be happy to fax you a copy of the =
letter, if desired.  The prototype was advertised in New Energy News and =
other energy journals, which was sold for US$5,000 for scrap value =
(since it didn't work). We later found that we are the latest on a list =
of at least a dozen investors that have put money into DePalma's =
technology with no working (over-unity) machine.  I would love to see =
independent, certified test reports.  Please post them!   Or, I would be =
happy to post our test results.

N-machines were hot in the 80's.  Numerous experimenters have tried to =
reproduce DePalma's claims, but no one seems to be able to get around =
the problem of back torque.  My partner, Mike Fisher, met Tewari in =
India in 1993.  He appears to be a man of great integrity, however, he =
did not demonstrate an over-unity device at that time.  He claims to =
have an o-u device, but we are unaware of any independent test results =
which prove such.  If you have any, please post them for all to see.

Ironically enough, the picture of N-machine on DePalma's web-site (the =
N-1) is stated to be over-unity, but DePalma told Mike that this version =
never was o-u.  And Prof. Kincholoe of Stamford University confirmed =
this.  We would love to see an o-u N-machine, but we fear that unless =
the problem of back torque (Lenz's law) can be overcome, this will never =
be realized.  DePalma claims that his stator-less machine is the =
solution, however, as soon as the output circuit is closed, this output =
circuit becomes, in effect, the stator, and as soon as current is drawn, =
the proportional back torque is developed at the shaft.  Therefore =
preventing the phenomenon of over-unity.

The field of new energy would be served greater if the facts about free =
energy technologies were discussed and this forum not used for character =
assassination.

- Reed Huish
  Zenergy Corp
  http://zenergy.com



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  8 10:54:47 1997
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From: Reed Huish <reed@zenergy.com>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: DePalma Discussion Continued
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:45:51 -0700
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If it was funded by ZENergy, (both posters have apparently agreed on
this point!) then exactly why was ZENergy's taking possesion of the
device illeagal?  If it was theirs (funded by ZENergy) why is their
taking possesion being described as "confiscation"?  Standing court
orders for arrest?  (This sound better than Newman vs. the PTO.)

Clearly there is a lot more to this story than either poster has
described so far.  And one poster is already finished with this issue?!  =



DePalma wouldn't let us see the prototype we funded, because he knew it =
didn't work -- and the longer he delayed, the longer he drained our =
wallets.

Oh, yes.  There is a lot more to this story.  But I'm wasting bandwith =
on a decadent technology that had its chance.   To avoid wasting =
people's time on this board, just give me a call or post me directly and =
we'll fill you in on more details.  I've got better things to do with my =
time.  However, I do want to avoid other investors falling into the trap =
we did. =20

Eddie, I also invite you to call us.  Before you get in too deep with =
DePalma, you should at least hear the 'other side' of the story.

- Reed Huish
  Zenergy Corp
  http://zenergy.com
  602.814.7865


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  8 14:11:22 1997
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From: Keasy@aol.com
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 16:58:57 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970508165711_314631071@emout19.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The Smith Coil
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I read with interest the description of the Smith coil.  But there are a
couple of questions someone on the list may be able to answer.  What is the
"proper" way of connecting the two windings to have a Smith coil?  They can
be series, aiding or opposing; or parallel, aiding or opposing.  I would
guess opposing, and the result is a very low inductance coil.  Any knowledge
or guesses as to how the caduceus winding effects the coil properties?  To
first order (if connected opposing) the coil is almost a short circuit, but I
assume other things are going on.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  8 15:51:36 1997
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From: geoff@compcafe.co.uk (Geoff Greaves)
Reply-To: geoff@compcafe.co.uk
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Five Various
Date: 08 May 1997 22:50:03 GMT
Message-Id: <14548990.26151045@compcafe.co.uk>
Organization: via Computer Cafes FC BBS Wales, UK
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Lightning:
This topic seems hung up on electricity and hence electrical conversion and
storage. Why not use lightning for vapourization to drive a turbine, provide
a heat source for a heat pump or a relaxing bath etc? (Unless you've been
robbing graveyards.......?)

Microwaves:
So the reason the majority here want an OU device is to thrash around in cars
at illegal speeds, eh? Seems a fair enough objective to me.

Greg's device:
If this is a linear ball-bearing accelerator wouldn't the simplest way to
'close the loop' be to return the ball to the begining via a route either
above or more probably below the 'black-box'? This avoids any tricky bendy
bits, just a see-saw.

Fred Epps:
Unless Fred dictates his e-mails or has a daily calorific intake equivalent
to eating three horses I have (roughly) calculated that he is OVER UNITY!

Inspirational thought:
"You are never given a wish without also being given the power to make it
true. You may have to work for it, however." Richard Bach in 'Illusions'

----------------------------------------
>From Geoff Greaves: geoff@compcafe.co.uk
----------------------------------------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  8 16:16:45 1997
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Message-ID: <33725CC6.1D0F@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 08:37:50 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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Geoff Greaves wrote:
> 
> Greg's device:
> If this is a linear ball-bearing accelerator wouldn't the simplest way to
> 'close the loop' be to return the ball to the begining via a route either
> above or more probably below the 'black-box'? This avoids any tricky bendy
> bits, just a see-saw.
> 
> From Geoff Greaves: geoff@compcafe.co.uk

Hi Geoff,

Have you seen the Magnetic ferris wheel graphics yet?

What do you think?

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  8 17:13:00 1997
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Message-ID: <01BC5BE2.D93CACA0@polaris.mdm.mke.execpc.com>
From: Hawkeye <havveye@execpc.com>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Newsletter
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 17:00:13 -0500
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I am trying to start a newsletter and I would like a discription of zero =
point energy and the work being done to use it to provide electricity. =
Although a lot will need to be cut out (Because of size restriction) I =
would like all help you could give me. After my newsletter gets =
published a few more people will know about free energy. Social =
pressures and curiosity will force more people to do work in this area.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  8 18:07:43 1997
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Message-ID: <3372A244.1FB9@tiac.net>
Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 21:04:20 -0700
From: Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
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Subject: Re: The Smith Coil
References: <970508165711_314631071@emout19.mail.aol.com>
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Keasy@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I read with interest the description of the Smith coil.  But there are a
> couple of questions someone on the list may be able to answer.  What is the
> "proper" way of connecting the two windings to have a Smith coil?  They can
> be series, aiding or opposing; or parallel, aiding or opposing.  I would
> guess opposing, and the result is a very low inductance coil.  Any knowledge
> or guesses as to how the caduceus winding effects the coil properties?  To
> first order (if connected opposing) the coil is almost a short circuit, but I
> assume other things are going on.

Caduceus coils are commonly used in the research (production) of scalar
waves.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  8 20:52:39 1997
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From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705090311.XAA25095@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: Re: Newsletter
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:11:11 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <01BC5BE2.D93CACA0@polaris.mdm.mke.execpc.com> from "Hawkeye" at May 8, 97 05:00:13 pm
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Come to think of it.  I would'nt mind a direct discription my self.  I
know a lot about it, but what would a direct discription be?  Like on
paragraph.
Andrew

> 
> I am trying to start a newsletter and I would like a discription of zero point energy and the work being done to use it to provide electricity. Although a lot will need to be cut out (Because of size restriction) I would like all help you could give me.



 After my newsletter gets published a few more people will know about free energy. Social pressures and curiosity will force more people to do work in this area.
> 
> 


-- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  8 21:33:38 1997
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Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:30:42 -0600
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Subject: *ANNOUNCEMENT*
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*  *  *  *  *  *  A N N O U N C E M E N T  *  *  *  *  *  *

  Energy machine inventor JOSEPH NEWMAN has been invited
         to make a Presentation at the upcoming
      FOURTH INTERNATIONAL SYMPOSIUM ON NEW ENERGY.

 Date: Memorial Day Weekend, May 23-26, 1997

Place: Denver, Colorado
       Marriott Denver Tech Center
       [Reservations: (303) 779-1100 or (800) 228-9290]

           For further information, contact the:
                 ACADEMY FOR NEW ENERGY
                    (970) 482-3731
                 (970) 482-3120 (fax)
    216 Commerce Dr., #4, Fort Collins, Colorado 80524

*  *  *  *  *  *  A N N O U N C E M E N T  *  *  *  *  *  *


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May  8 23:06:34 1997
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Message-ID: <3372D1E0.1825@triode.net.au>
Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 00:27:28 -0700
From: Maxwell <max@triode.net.au>
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CC: Bmd2323@aol.com
Subject: Re: Rex Research
References: <970508014903_-1433691277@emout05.mail.aol.com>
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The last address I have is:

REX RESEARCH
PO BOX 19250
JEAN
NV 89019
USA

Unless he has moved again!


Bmd2323@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Howdy!
> 
> Have you ever heard of Rex Research?  They had a catalog offering items
> similar to those you've got here.  I have an old address for them, but its
> out of date and the phone number I have for them is no good either.  Would at
> least like to be able to track down some of their items if possible.  Please
> let me know if you know anything.  Thanks.  I can be reached at
> Bmd2323@aol.com.

-- 
Maxwell.
Be reckless! Practice senseless acts of compassion!

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  9 04:18:27 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 07:13:17 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970509071315_-1533610402@emout17.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Levitron in action color video 
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Hi All,

If you want to see by yourself, a magnetic levitation device in action ( in
ambiant temperature.....). 
I put a small color video ( 135 ko in AVI, Video for Windows format ) of my
Levitron device. 
( weight : 25 gr , 1000 RPM, 40 mm above the base during 2mn30 )
So, you will be able to dream about some antigravity devices floating above
the ground with this video.....

You can download this video at :

    http://members.aol.com/overunity2/images/lvtclr.avi

Have fun,

Truly,

Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May  9 13:58:46 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 16:41:12 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970509164025_20246116@emout20.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
cc: jdecker@keelynet.com
Subject: The Hamel Antigravity device scheme
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Hi All,

You will find in my web server the Hamel Antigravity device scheme at :

    http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/hamelfs.htm

This is a weird device, not tested by myself, today....but interesting to
study.....

Sincerely,

Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 11 01:15:33 1997
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Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 21:13:17 -0700
From: "Fred B. Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>
Organization: Pegasus Products
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Subject: chocolate-fueled overunity
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Hi All!

> Fred Epps:
> Unless Fred dictates his e-mails or has a daily calorific intake equivalent
> to eating three horses I have (roughly) calculated that he is OVER UNITY!

  My caloric intake is quite high as I have a fondness for swiss
chocolate and I am sure that the sugar buzz fuels my unremitting posts
:-]
   
             Together we are "more than one"--- overunity,
                       Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 11 02:44:21 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 05:35:02 -0400 (EDT)
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re : chocolate-fueled overunity
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On 11/05/1997 09:12:03  , Fred Epps wrote :

<< 
   My caloric intake is quite high as I have a fondness for swiss
 chocolate and I am sure that the sugar buzz fuels my unremitting posts
 :-]
    
              Together we are "more than one"--- overunity,
                        Fred
  >>

Hi Fred,

You have perhaps found a PARAMETRIC EXCITATION with chocolate  :-)

Jean-Louis

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 11 02:48:14 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 05:29:11 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970511052909_2051611937@emout01.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
cc: jdecker@keelynet.com, gwatson@microtronics.com.au, teague@es.co.nz,
        Byrun_Fox@mindlink.bc.ca, mrandall@earthlink.net
Subject: Hamel "antigravity" device animation
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Hi All,

If you want to see the Hamel "Antigravity (?)" device virtualy running....
You will find a detailled animation of this weird device at :

        http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/hamelfs.htm

Have fun and a good week-end....  :-)

Truly,

Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 11 23:35:46 1997
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Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 19:30:30 -0700
From: "Fred B. Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>
Organization: Pegasus Products
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Subject: Re: LIGHTNING!
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Hi All, 

   Just some random thought about atmospheric electricity, lightning
etc.  It seems to me that people are missing the point if they focus on
the actual lightning bolt. The electrostatic potential is about 200
V./meter (acknowledged, a very low current). A laser with a wavelength
that partially ionizes a constituent molecule of the air would provide a
conductive path for this voltage to ground. 
   A piece of conductive glass placed over the laser would collect this
voltage and power a load interposed between it and ground.
   The question in this scheme is whether the ionized path could be made
long enough to generate enough power to run the laser and supply a
load.  I don't know enough about lasers, atmospheric optics, or
chemistry to say anything about that.
   I had mentioned a method for attracting lightning bolts in another
post. It involved using a HV generator attached to a rod or a sheet of
metal that would set its potential BELOW ground. Lightning would "see"
this rod or sheet as if it were an immensely tall object. 
   It's possible that this method could be used without the lightning.
If the potential difference between the rod and any arbitrary point in
the atmosphere over the rod was raised high enough there would be a
flashover between the two points, or possibly a continuous ion current
which would tend to neutralize the device potential. If this energy
could be collected instead, there might be an excess over and above that
necessary to power the machine.
   Oleg Jeffimenko succesfully ran motors with 5 W. mechanical power
output off the electrical potential from long wires attached to
balloons. As far as I know, no-one is experimenting with this now.
                             Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 12 00:16:57 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:31:03 +1000
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Geoff Egel <egel@main.murray.net.au>
Subject: Re: LIGHTNING!
Resent-Message-ID: <"GsCnf3.0.eB3.a0iTp"@mx2>
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At 07:30 PM 5/11/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi All, 
>
>   Just some random thought about atmospheric electricity, lightning
>etc.  It seems to me that people are missing the point if they focus on
>the actual lightning bolt. The electrostatic potential is about 200
>V./meter (acknowledged, a very low current). A laser with a wavelength
>that partially ionizes a constituent molecule of the air would provide a
>conductive path for this voltage to ground. 
>   A piece of conductive glass placed over the laser would collect this
>voltage and power a load interposed between it and ground.
>   The question in this scheme is whether the ionized path could be made
>long enough to generate enough power to run the laser and supply a
>load.  I don't know enough about lasers, atmospheric optics, or
>chemistry to say anything about that.
>   I had mentioned a method for attracting lightning bolts in another
>post. It involved using a HV generator attached to a rod or a sheet of
>metal that would set its potential BELOW ground. Lightning would "see"
>this rod or sheet as if it were an immensely tall object. 
>   It's possible that this method could be used without the lightning.
>If the potential difference between the rod and any arbitrary point in
>the atmosphere over the rod was raised high enough there would be a
>flashover between the two points, or possibly a continuous ion current
>which would tend to neutralize the device potential. If this energy
>could be collected instead, there might be an excess over and above that
>necessary to power the machine.
>   Oleg Jeffimenko succesfully ran motors with 5 W. mechanical power
>output off the electrical potential from long wires attached to
>balloons. As far as I know, no-one is experimenting with this now.
>                             Fred
>
>
>I always though glass was an excellent insulator to certain voltage levels
could you please explain how you get conductive glass

Geoff
http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel/

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 12 00:20:53 1997
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From: Geoff Egel <egel@main.murray.net.au>
Subject: Capacitor design  help needed
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>I am doing some experiments with high voltage generated from a Wimhurst
electrostatic
machine  and would like some comment on a possible design of a capacitor
built this way as described below


                               ^Insulated middle electrode
                               ^
                       |------ ^  ------|
>                      |   ----^------  |
                       |  |           | |
                       |  | Sealed    | |
                       |  | metal     | | area of two cans filled with air
                       |  |  can      | | or pure oil 
                       |  |           | | 
                       |  ------------  |
                       |==Insulation====|
                       |----------------|------ outer electrode electrode
     
The Capacitor would be two metal tin cans  similiar to those that are filled
with coffee.      
The outer can capacity is about 2.5 kgs the inner one about 2kgs.
One can is smaller than the other and is supported by means of a Insulated
Plastic support between the two bottoms of cans .
Around the sides the spaces would be made to be equal on all sides.
The space between the two cans will either be filled with air or a pure
machine oil
and maybe the centre can will be filled with oil as well
The oil will be filled so that it will cover the middle can entirely
The top lid is centre drilled to allow an insulated metal electrode to make
contract
with the middle can and the second electrode is connected to the outer
shell.         There will holes in the centre can to allow oil flow if
centre is filled.  

I thought I might also add a smith type tpe coil winding on the outer
can  side  amd discharge the high voltage fron the capacitor throught it.

Before I build this however I would like some comment from the more experienced
members of this newsgroup into what I could expect some of the results to be
however speculative it could be.  

What measurement of mfd can I expect
What Voltage could it hold without cross over.
what Resonance frequency could it be.

Thanking you in advance

Geoff Egel
http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel/

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 12 00:35:12 1997
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Message-Id: <3376906D.1B79@mail.halcyon.com>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 20:37:18 -0700
From: "Fred B. Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>
Organization: Pegasus Products
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Hi Geoff,

   I'm pretty sure those computer screens that are supposed to protect
against radiation are conductive glass.  Basically it has a layer of
metal on it that is thin enough to be transparent.  Probaly you could
make a glass that was itself conductive if you doped it properly, like
an amorphous semiconductor only moreso.
                                Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 12 08:50:21 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 08:41:44 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <199705121341.IAA16544@bluestem.prairienet.org>
From: w9sz@prairienet.org (Zack Widup)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Re: LIGHTNING!
Reply-To: w9sz@prairienet.org
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>
>Hi Geoff,
>
>   I'm pretty sure those computer screens that are supposed to protect
>against radiation are conductive glass.  Basically it has a layer of
>metal on it that is thin enough to be transparent.  Probaly you could
>make a glass that was itself conductive if you doped it properly, like
>an amorphous semiconductor only moreso.
>                                Fred
>
>

The manufacturers actually put lead in the glass.  It is sufficient to 
reduce radiation hazards but not enough to make the glass conductive.
That is the reason TV's and computer monitors keep getting heavier, while 
the electronics gets smaller.

Glass CAN be made conductive by putting a layer of metal on it by vapor 
deposition. In fact, the mirrors on a laser are made this way. The mirror 
at the rear of the laser is close to 100% reflective; the one in the 
front is approx. 70% reflective. This allows the laser to be an optical 
cavity resonator while also allowing a smaller percentage of the light to 
get out of the laser.

We used gold on glass for a LIDAR project I was working on some years 
ago. It was conductive. I imagine you could use aluminum or some other 
cheaper metal fairly easily.

Zack


--

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 12 09:11:54 1997
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From: M2Milly@aol.com
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:59:19 -0400 (EDT)
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Re : chocolate-fueled overunity XXX
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<< << 
    My caloric intake is quite high as I have a fondness for swiss
  chocolate and I am sure that the sugar buzz fuels my unremitting posts
  :-]
     
               Together we are "more than one"--- overunity,
                         Fred
   >>
 
 Hi Fred,
 
 You have perhaps found a PARAMETRIC EXCITATION with chocolate  :-)
 
 Jean-Louis >>

Actually its not the sugar that gives the buzz, but the chocolate itself.
 Sugar acts as a catalyst in the chemical reaction between the
phenylethylamine, caffeine and theobromine.

Chocolate as self-medication...
Donald F. Klein and Michael R. Liebowitz argue that some people who suffer
from wide fluctuations in mood may have a faulty mechanism for controlling
the body levels of phenylethylamine, a naturally occurring substance that has
amphetaminelike effects. The evidence for this is that certain drugs called
monoamine oxidase inhibitors, which inhibit the enzymes that break down
phyenylethylamine, lift the spirits of people for whom the standard
mood-elevating drugs don't work.  According to the doctors, cholcolate is
rich in phenylethylamine.  So self-professed chocolate "addicts" who turn to
the candy for solace after depression may be doing so in an unconscious
effort to stabilize their body chemistry. (On Food and Cooking, 408)

Judith Wurtman, Ph.D. MIT speculates that people crave chocolate because it
stimulates seratonin release and calms them.  Chocolate also contain
theobromine and caffeine.  A compound in chocolate called phenylethylamine
stimulates the nervous system, increases blood preassure and heart rate, and
is suspected to produce feelings similar to those when a person is in love.
 It is also linked to endorphins and the pleasure response. (Food and Mood,
80)

My favorite is a cup of coffee and a chocolate donut or cookie to counteract
the acidic effects of the caffeine in my system.  BUT BE CAREFUL because you
are probably stripping out *B* and *C* vitamins from your system with
PROLONGED CHOCOLATE ABUSE which, over time, will give you the opposite effect
from the chocolate high, i.e. depression.  Supplement with a *b-c vitamin
complex* at 2 to 3 times recommended dosage on a daily basis. 

Always interested in fuel for the mind....
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/futrtools/index.htm">FutrTools</A> software
for your head,
MjMichael

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 12 11:23:52 1997
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Message-ID: <3377216F.7B87@mail.halcyon.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 06:55:59 -0700
From: "Fred B. Epps" <fepps@mail.halcyon.com>
Organization: Pegasus Products
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Hi Peter and All,

   Peter Nielsen said on May 5th,

> >It has been proven by those who prove these things (the first two
> >refs) that a one-way system must include either a static magnetic field
> >or a mechanical coupling (such as the gyro or transducer combinations).
> >
> 
> What about ES fields?

   No, there doesn't need to be an E/S field present. Microwave gyrators
are nonreciprocal elements that consist only of a ferrite sheet in a
waveguide, biased by a permanent magnet. The signal is flipped 90
degrees so the electric vector becomes the magnetic one and vice versa
(I think I have that right).
   On the other hand, at lower frequencies the most useful way to create
these nonreciprocal effects is to mechanically couple an electromagnetic
transducer to an electrostatic (cap, PZ) one.
   The Hall effect device is a purely magnetic nonreciprocal device but
the efficiency is low because Hall effect substances are
magnetoresistors.
   A possible exception might be the Corbino effect device I described
in posts where the Hall effect occurs in bulk metals (i.e Bismuth).
   Since an electrostatic generator driven by a motor is an
electromagnetic transducer (motor) mechanically coupled to an
electrostatic one, these are nonreciprocal as well. 
   The implication is that loading the output of an E/S generator will
not load the motor. Efficiency ratings for E/S generators must then be
solely based on the efficiency of the motor.
   The motor does not have to be overunity for the whole system to be
overunity. The E/S rotor as an inertial system can rotate without any
loading other than that caused by friction and still provide power. The
motor only serves the purpose of compensating for frictional losses,
much as the motors in commercial gyros do.
   I believe that this is the working principle behind the Hyde and
Testatika devices. 
For best operation these types of machines should be run as parametric
machines without excitation (I won't get into the hot air about why
unless you're really interested).
   A modified electrostatic generator can be a straightforward overunity
system.
   It will work.
                              Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 12 13:34:51 1997
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Subject: Re: electromechanical overunity : HYDE Gen.
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> Fred  wrote:
> .......
> The motor only serves the purpose of compensating for frictional losses,
> much as the motors in commercial gyros do.
>    I believe that this is the working principle behind the Hyde and
> Testatika devices.
> For best operation these types of machines should be run as parametric
> machines without excitation (I won't get into the hot air about why
> unless you're really interested).
>    A modified electrostatic generator can be a straightforward overunity
> system.

Hi Fred and others:

Who has any figures about the HYDE GENERATOR (based on actual
measurements) ?
The patent text mentions 10% mechanical input power for 100% electrical
output.
How high is the consumption of the input field voltage supplied to the
electrodes ?

any input on the subject is welcome

gyroscopically
		Felix Meyer 
--

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 12 15:38:22 1997
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Hi Felix and All,

> Who has any figures about the HYDE GENERATOR (based on actual
> measurements) ?
> The patent text mentions 10% mechanical input power for 100% electrical
> output.
> How high is the consumption of the input field voltage supplied to the
> electrodes ?

   I neglected to mention in my reference to the Hyde generator that it
didn't work :-)
I know that George Hathaway and (I think) others have built and tested
this machine and they have not even found the circuit behaviour that
Hyde described, much less overunity performance. I'm working from memory
here, but it seems that Hyde wanted an absurd sum of money for his
invention too.
   The reson I brought his machine up at all was because it was a handy,
relatively well-known reference point for this type of rotational E/S
generator. I was remiss in not mentioning the small point that it was
bogus :-)
   In my opinion, the machine truly worthy of reexamination is the
"Parametric Electric Machine" invented by Ferdinand Cap (#4,622,510)
based on the 1930's research of Mandleshtam and Papaleksi. It is
referenced in the Hyde patent. Though this is a very simple machine in
principle, only slight modifications would allow it to be overunity,
based on my research on nonreciprocal systems.
   The Cap machine consists of one or more sets of vane-like metal
rotors between fixed capacitor plates. The capacitance of the plates is
in series with a load and an inductor. When the vanes rotate the
capacitance varies which parametrically induces a current through the
load.
   There is no source of E/S excitation in the Cap machine, all the
energy is derived parametrically. 
   If you picture a single half-circular vane rotor passing across a
half-circular capacitor stator you will see that, just as there is no
output power from standard E/S induction, there is no mechanical loading
from this cause: the energy needed to move the rotor off the stator is
equal to that gained by moving it onto the stator. The situation is
conservative.
  However, there is loading due to the parametric induction. The output
of a parametric machine is at half the frequency of the input (in this
case, rotation). In the one-vane system described above, this means that
the current induced in the output circuit opposes the rotation twice in
each cycle.
  My proposed modification to the Cap machine (in its simplest form)
uses two electrically separate half-circular capacitive stators
connected to two separate loads and inductors, keeping the one rotating
vane. The two parametric output currents are 180 degrees out of phase
with each other so that any mechanical forces which might oppose the
rotor's movement are cancelled by vector addition (one pushes as the
other pulls).
  The only mechanical losses are frictional and can be mostly overcome
by good design.
  Anybody who is interested in more building details let me know.
                                  Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 12 16:24:55 1997
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I have fabricated a lot HKV caps from 30KV up to 200KV ranging 
up to a full fared.
 Using  a 55galon plastic drum. (Now there is a big capacitor) It seems 
to me that your are
 striving for some sort of high frequency resonating circuit. 
Well you giving some thought into this so let me put my 2 cents in. From 
what I see this..
First.:  If you intend to apply any HKV to this can, you will find that 
the outer can will be 
charged and extremely dangerous, even lethal.
 
Second: If a HKV is to be applied to this capacitor, I would definitely 
use pure mineral oil. Air is 
is not a good insulator with HKV and the cans will ark, therefor no 
capacitance.  
	I don't know why you wont to use a pica fared capacitor. But if 
you are trying for 
something close to a fared or .5f then you need to increase your plate 
size tremendously. 
	Good luck and keep pulsating. 

			I ndependent
			 C urrent
			  V oltage
			    R esearch

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 12 16:57:07 1997
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Fred B. Epps wrote:
> 
> 
>    I neglected to mention in my reference to the Hyde generator that it
> didn't work :-)
> I know that George Hathaway and (I think) others have built and tested
> this machine and they have not even found the circuit behaviour that
> Hyde described, much less overunity performance. I'm working from memory
> here, but it seems that Hyde wanted an absurd sum of money for his
> invention too.
>    The reson I brought his machine up at all was because it was a handy,
> relatively well-known reference point for this type of rotational E/S
> generator. I was remiss in not mentioning the small point that it was
> bogus :-)
  ... ...
---

Thanks Fred,

for your excellent comment. By studying the Hyde Gen. I came to the
conclusion
that the output circuit is a nonsense. 
By changing the output circuit and preventing the error in circuiting
the
stator segments 82 of Fig.3, the design might work correctly.

gyroscopically

		Felix
--

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 12 18:49:58 1997
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Message-ID: <3377C217.7214@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:51:27 +0930
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Hi All,

Sorry to say, but my patent attorney has pulled the plug.

By the way, I closed the loop late last night!  It is sort of ramp
based.  Not much power yet.  It has been running (self powered) for 12
hours now.  Must close now.

I will post again as soon as posible.

To all thouse of you who have built ramps, all I can say is get three
linked ramps working and then study the second (middle) ramp.  Think
outside the square.

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 12 20:25:00 1997
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Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 20:00:00 PST
Subject: O/U Device & Gary Effect
Message-ID: <19970302.200003.3174.0.tv@juno.com>
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Since Mr. Watson's device is apparently based on the same principle
as that of Wesley Gary (1874), is it not reasonable to re-examine this
remarkable but ignored invention from the 19th centrury ?   Even though
the inventions of Wesley Gary and Greg Watson generate only  flee power,
they
should not be dismissed as just toys.  The GARY EFFECT  (or Gary-Watson
Effect) can certtainly be enhanced to any level of power  when it is
better understood.

Consider the invention of Hans Coler as a possible example of such
advancement.

I think Beatty's electronic think-tank is working  !

Tim Vaughan
(tv@juno.com)


On 5/5/97 Greg Watson wrote:
>My method of generation the graduated B field for the ramp and exit is
>very different.  Its the exit where its all at.  Side to side balancing
>of the magnetic forces is critical.  The ball must always stay balanced
>or on the "Neutral Line" as Wesley Gary would say.

And then on 5/13/97 Greg wrote:

> I closed the loop late last night!  It is sort of ramp
>based.  Not much power yet.  It has been running (self powered) for 12
>hours now.

>To all thouse of you who have built ramps, all I can say is get three
>linked ramps working and then study the second (middle) ramp.  Think
>outside the square.
>
>-- 
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 
>Home/Office/Fax
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 12 21:21:38 1997
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Hi Fred,

You wrote:

>However, there is loading due to the parametric induction. The output
>of a parametric machine is at half the frequency of the input (in this
>case, rotation). In the one-vane system described above, this means that
>the current induced in the output circuit opposes the rotation twice in
>each cycle.
>
>My proposed modification to the Cap machine (in its simplest form)
>uses two electrically separate half-circular capacitive stators
>connected to two separate loads and inductors, keeping the one rotating
>vane. The two parametric output currents are 180 degrees out of phase
>with each other so that any mechanical forces which might oppose the
>rotor's movement are cancelled by vector addition (one pushes as the
>other pulls).
>snip

This Cap patent is extremely interesting. I note he claims some 1050 volts 
at 300 Hz output. Do you think it would be possible to accomplish the same 
parametric action by simply switching in and out capacitance at an 
appropriate moment - i.e. at twice the resonant frequency? Would this 
overcome the problem of loading due to parametric induction?

Or has this idea been been discussed before - I have a vague idea it has. If 
so, did anyone do any experiments, or come to any informed conclusions?

>  Anybody who is interested in more building details let me know.

Yes please, I'm most interested.

Regards,

SR

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 12 22:07:47 1997
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At 10:51 13.05.97 +0930, gwatson@microtronics.com.au wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>Sorry to say, but my patent attorney has pulled the plug.
>
>By the way, I closed the loop late last night!  It is sort of ramp
>based.  Not much power yet.  It has been running (self powered) for 12
>hours now.  Must close now.
>
>I will post again as soon as posible.
>
>To all thouse of you who have built ramps, all I can say is get three
>linked ramps working and then study the second (middle) ramp.  Think
>outside the square.
>
>-- 
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
>

Dear Greg,

congratulations again to you to make it happen.

Long hard work finally paid off ! :)

Well, after I have speaken to you on the phone,
I wanted still to add to you and all the other guys, who work on theses
systems, that you could probably extract some small electrical energy
by putting a few coils around the ramp magnets.
As you have used the ramps inside the rotor this would be probably
much more complicated, but if you build it the other way around,
that you would have the ramps as the stator and the "ball" as the rotor,
then it could be easily done, that you wind a few coils and place them
onto the permanent magnets and as the "ball" moves accross the ramps
there will be some induction voltage inside the coils.

Also it would be very interesting to study the waveform of this 
induction voltage. This could also maybe lead to a better understanding
of the physics effects involved there.
You could probably not draw much power out of the coils, but if you could
at least run a LED lighting in the night with it, hey, that would be a first
step ! :)

Good luck with your patent application !

Hope you can soon report a lot more.

Best regards, Stefan.
--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 13 00:12:05 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:40:33 +1000
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From: Geoff Egel <egel@main.murray.net.au>
Subject: Re:Help need to build wally minto wheel
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I have recieved a request for some construction detials for the Wally Minto 
Temperature wheel   could anyone with some  details
Please send an email to the the following Address and help him out (please)



Paul Skelly <paul.skelly@datacraft.com.au>













>Thanking you in advance
>
>Geoff Egel
>http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel/
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 13 03:36:50 1997
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Hi Greg,

   I'm sure I will be only one of many to say
 
                            CONGRATULATIONS!!!

Best of luck on the future development of your device!

                             Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 13 07:12:42 1997
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At 10:51 5/13/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote:

>Sorry to say, but my patent attorney has pulled the plug.

OK, you don't have to tell us anything about the workings of yr device, but...

>By the way, I closed the loop late last night!  It is sort of ramp
>based.  Not much power yet.  It has been running (self powered) for 12
>hours now.

I would appreciate a more detailed description of this phenomena.

As I presently understand it, you have a ball or some such roller that moves
around in a more-or-less circular path thru a series of magnetic ramps and
this roller continues to move around and around by itself...totally unaided
by any external means whatsoever (including powered switching mechanisms
that you think are not putting energy into the loop)?

Again, Greg, don't feel obliged to reveal any details of your
invention...just describe in considerable detail what it's _performance_ is.
Please include a description of any nearby devices that might be delivering
power to the subject device.  Along those lines, have you tried moving your
invention to a new location to see if it still works?

Thanks



Scott Little, EarthTech Int'l, Inc.    http://www.eden.com/~little
Suite 300, 4030 Braker Lane West, Austin TX 78759,  USA
512-342-2185 (voice), 512-346-3017 (FAX), little@eden.com (email)

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 13 11:43:26 1997
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Message-ID: <01BC5F7F.C2FD3270@ristra.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Simple Ou Device Offline
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:26:38 -0700
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Congratulations, Greg!

I hope the next steps go well for you.
Of course, I'm also anxious to hear more about it when you're free to do 
so.

I've just ordered a batch of Neodymium magnets, enough to experiment with 
multiple ramps. Also hoping to get more lift.

It's frustrating how little net power we can get from these ramps. I'm 
working with the idea of making the field contours less "thick" in the 
vertical axis, and other ways to shape the field for better exit.

If you're still working with a ball rolling on a track, I had these ideas:

- try a non-metallic but low-friction track. This would eliminate any 
opposing induced fields in the track. How about a couple of glass rods?

- vary the width of the track relative to the ball. This changes the 
rotational velocity of the ball; a wider track makes the ball rotate faster 
but slows its forward velocity. One way to use this is to have a very 
narrow track for more forward momentum. Then make it wider just at the end; 
this would slow its forward speed (and start it dropping) but increase the 
angular velocity, giving it more of a roll over the edge. Once over the 
edge the track could narrow again.

Dan Quickert


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 13 12:21:22 1997
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Cc: freenrg-L@eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 11:30:41 PST
Subject: Real over unity devices
Message-ID: <19970303.113045.11822.0.tv@juno.com>
References: <3377C217.7214@microtronics.com.au>
	<33789A2C.321B@interlaced.net>
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If Greg Watson does not want to tell us how he built his ball and track
gizmo, it really does not matter.  It will only be a matter of time
before  these types of magnetic motors are going to be popping up all
over the world.  I believe this for the following reasons:

1.   We now can be  more confident than ever that it is possible to build
      perpetual motion machines and free energy devices of the 2nd kind.
     (Apparently violating the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics).

2.  We know of at least one other well documented device that 
     used the same principle and produced the same magnitude of power
     output (between flea and mouse),  the Gary Magnet Motor.

3.  Hans Coler demonstrated that solid state ferromagnetic devices can be
made to
     produce substantial power output (up 5 KW in the most advanced
model).
     He was even given money by the German Government to develop his
     technology and demonstrate it to Hitler near the end of the war. 
Fortunately,
     for the rest of the world at that time, the Third Reich did not get
to exploit
     this technology.

4.  Even a low powered self-driven device demonstrates that the 2nd Law
does
     not preclude the possibility of cohering fluctuation energy as
predicted by
     the Nobel Laureate Physicist Percy William Bridgman.
    (Read his book,  THE NATURE OF THERMODYNAMICS)
   
The ferromagnetic ratchet mechanisms at work in these devices are not
well understood and so the conditions under which they operate is
not clear.  However, the invention of Wesley Gary shows that the
fluctuation
coherence effects are more apparent when there is a transition boundary
established in the magnetic material (the Neutral Line).

Both Wesley Gary and Hans Coler had devices that were difficult to adjust
and depended on proper conditioning of the iron components that cohered
the energy.
The Hans Coler's Stromerzeuger (current creator) was able to produce
substantial power levels.  However, the Gary Magnetic motor is probably
a better target for someone who would like to demonstrate a free energy
device.  Once the conditions
are better understood, the solid state design like that of Hans Coler
should be
the best source of energy yet developed !

If you are interested in building a free energy machine, check out the
Gary Magnet Motor.  I have it posted on the Web at
<   http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4810    >

Gary demonstrated this device to numerous witnesses and openly described
its
principles and construction as he understood them.  Since his device only
produced enough power to keep itself moving, (like Watson's ball and
track machine), it did not 
gather the interest that it should have in the 1870's when people were
looking for machines that "would do peoples work".

To learn more about Hans Coler check out
< http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/3752/hcoler1.htm >.

It is from the British Intelligence report from Project Paperclip. 
Project Paperclip was the massive gathering of large amounts of technical information from Germany at the end of WWII.

Tim

   

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 13 14:08:07 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:00:39 -0700
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Hello Horace,

   At the risk of beating a dead horse it still seems like my research
on Hall and Corbino effects has relevance to your thermal drift theory.

> The primary objective of this paper is to demonstrate an inconsistency
> between  the second law of thermodynamics and the Lorentz force.

   The Hall effect and Corbino effects are Lorentz force effects. For
comparison purposes it's best to refer to the third Corbino effect: A
metallic disc with electrodes at center and periphery will show a
potential across those electrodes if a changing, nonreversing magnetic
field is applied at right angles. This is not an EM inductive effect in
the usual sense and it is not eddy currents. This is demonstrated by the
fact that the effect DECREASES with magnetic field intensities above .8
T for Bismuth, the material with the highest Corbino coefficient. 
   It is a Lorentz force effect.
   The Lorentz force effects are nonreciprocal, that is, there is no
back EMF imposed on the changing magnetic field. The current flow
through the disc produces a field at right angles to the changing field.
  Changing the magnetic field in an area of space does not require
energy. As a thought experiment, imagine a cylindrical magnet projecting
at right angles from a spinning rod. A Hall effect sensor will detect a
changing magnetic field but this detection process does not slow the rod
down. An inductive sensor on the other hand will slow it down.
  A very simple overunity device could be made consisting of such a rod/
pole magnet combination surrounded by these Corbino discs. A small motor
maintains rotation against frictional forces. A less "efficient" version
could be made, as I have said, with the magnet as part of a high Q tank
circuit.
  I am not trying to conflate our researches together, they are
obviously quite different. But my entirely different line of attack
leads to the same conclusion: Orthogonal forces like the Lorentz effect
are nonreciprocal (gyroscopic) and thus violate Newton's law of action
and reaction, and thus violate so-called "laws" of thermodynamics.
                          Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 13 14:56:28 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:09:26 -0700
From: Tameer Hohnsbein <T.Hohnsbein@tu-bs.de>
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Dear Greg,

       Congratulations !!!

I was a bit astonished. I already came to know you from your postings as
a modest man, 
but first I couldn't believe it that you wrote :

> By the way, I closed the loop late last night!

Your invention is not something like "by the way". As I see it it was
hard work to do.
Surely something you can really be proud of !!!
Hurray ! You have made it happen !!!

I wish you the very best for your next steps.
Please put the plug into your patent attorney  ;-)
and after you have your device patented please come back soon.

Good luck!  :-)

-- 
Best regards
Tameer
_________________________________________
Tameer Hohnsbein
Hagenring 80, 38106 Braunschweig, Germany
E-Mail: T.Hohnsbein@tu-bs.de
phone : ++49 531 / 335348

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 13 15:54:23 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:22:28 -0500 (CDT)
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From: w9sz@prairienet.org (Zack Widup)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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>
>4.  Even a low powered self-driven device demonstrates that the 2nd Law
>does
>     not preclude the possibility of cohering fluctuation energy as
>predicted by
>     the Nobel Laureate Physicist Percy William Bridgman.
>    (Read his book,  THE NATURE OF THERMODYNAMICS)
>   

Also see the works of Nobel laureate Ilya Prigogine (non-equilibrium 
statistical mechanics).

Zack


--

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 13 15:57:47 1997
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Message-ID: <3378EF06.2666@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:15:26 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Hi All,

Just a short note to try to answer those questions I can.


1) There is NO outside power source.

2) The device contains only ceramic magnet and ferromagnetic materials
(some balsa, a few bearings and some plactic "U" channel as well).

3) The device produces rotary torque.  Can be stopped with very little
pressure from two fingers on a steel 4mm shaft.

4) The device has been moved to the middle of my lounge and my back
garden.  It still works.

5) The device will not auto start.  However the energy necessary to
start is only that required to overcome friction.

6) I don't think the device is worthy of a Nobel or my picture on
Business Week.  I know of several other devices (Finstrud, Gary, Kawai,
Bob Shannon's Barkenhausen Effect Battery and many US patents) which
show magnetic devices can do work.  For some strange reason, we seem to
"Not want to believe" or maybe just want to believe in our own area of
research as the "One true path".

7) I have posted enough details and ideas for those of you who REALLY
want to duplicate the device to do so.  Read my postings.

8) Much work still remains to be able to light a 1 watt bulb.  When I
can do that, I will make available through Stephan's and Bill's OU web
sites a Mpeg of the device working.  If I can't light a bulb, it will
still make a nice toy and maybe a starting place for someone else.

9) The magnets don't appear to be getting weaker or colder, but then I
am not generating much power yet.

10) I still call the effect DNMEC (Direct Nuclear Magnetic Energy
Conversion).  Like my flux gate DNMEC effect, both these effects revolve
around ferromagnetic and magnet interactions.  I believe the Kawai motor
is another variation of the DNMEC effect (like the Rod & Coil we
discussed earlier).

Come on guys (and gals), start thinking outside of the square.  There is
always more than one way to crack eggs.  

Stop talking .............. BUILD SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 13 18:57:50 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:59:49 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Subject: Greg & Shirley Watson
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------4CAA1C6B5C51
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi All,

For those of you who asked, here is a photo (about 1 year old) of my
wife Shirley & I.

I have made a video of the device.  I am having it turned into a Mpeg.

Thanks for all the supportive posts, but I really don't think my device
is all that great.  I have been in business too long not to understand
that there is a very long and rocky road until I or others can offer a
10kw home unit for sale.  

I really believe someone else will achieve a better solution.

Just remember :
    "None of us is as smart as all of us"

Think outside the square and BUILD SOMETHING...................!

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

--------------4CAA1C6B5C51
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--------------4CAA1C6B5C51--


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 13 19:04:00 1997
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Resent-Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:55:57 -0700
Message-ID: <33791B01.7874@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:23:05 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Simple Rotary Ou Device
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970513173134.13080B-100000@eskimo.com>
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William Beaty wrote:
> 
> I disagree about the Nobel.  Should Tesla/Marconi not be recognized, just
> because H. Hertz was there first?

That sort of thing doesn't really turn me on.

> Best of luck at slipping a "pm" machine through the patent process!  Is
> the system in .au more tolerant towards this sort of thing than in .usa?

By "pm" I suppose you mean perpetual motion?  We will cover that the
same way Johnson did in his rotary magnet motor.  Suggest where the
energy is coming from.  We will also have a working device for them to
test.

> > 7) I have posted enough details and ideas for those of you who REALLY
> > want to duplicate the device to do so.  Read my postings.
> 
> I hope this is true, but you can't know this until someone else is
> sucessful.  Think about Heathkit instructions: it took DC Heath many
> passes of beta testing to create instructions which people could follow.
> Humans bring preconceptions with them to any task, even humans with
> expertise in the field.  If your preconceptions are slightly different
> than everyone elses, then you can give out all sorts of information, yet
> everyone will keep making the same mistake, or exhibiting the same bit of
> blindness, and will be unable to do what you've done.

As a hint, think of how to build a ramp where the field graduations
REDUCE as the ball rolls up the ramp.  Sounds impossible, but I
guarantee it can be done.  Think outside the square.

Then BUILD IT!!!!!!!!!!

> .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
> William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623
> EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/
> Seattle, WA 98117  billb@eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 13 19:39:43 1997
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Message-ID: <01BC5FE4.D35B75E0@littledeuce-coupe.execpc.com>
From: Hawkeye <havveye@execpc.com>
To: "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>,
        "neotech@xbn.shore.net"
	 <neotech@xbn.shore.net>,
        "newman-l@emachine.com"
	 <newman-l@emachine.com>,
        "vortex-l@eskimo.com"
	 <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Simple Ou Device Offline
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 21:10:44 -0500
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What did you use to build your device
and would you care to give me directions on building it?
BTW: when you are done you might want to get that independent study, or whatever it is.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 13 20:15:03 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:58:40 -0400
From: David DeLeo <ddeleo@ix.netcom.com>
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To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
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        freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Greg & Shirley Watson
References: <3379158D.39FA@microtronics.com.au>
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> Thanks for all the supportive posts, but I really don't think my device
> is all that great.  I have been in business too long not to understand
> that there is a very long and rocky road until I or others can offer a
> 10kw home unit for sale.  
> 


Greg,  Give yourself the credit you deserve....

You have worked hard on the development of this device and you
succeded.  Sure the comercial aspects of it have not been worked out,
but the priciple is there.  Remember the Wright brothers, their first
plane skimmed the ground for about 100 yards or so (not much by modern
terms, also not very usefull comercialy, certainly no Concorde) but it
was the first powered flight and they deserve the credit they have
recieved.  So do you.  You made the first? successful pm machine, the
10kw unit will come with time.  Let me know when you are ready for
investors.....

Good Luck,
Dave DeLeo
ddeleo@ix.netcom.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 14 08:23:30 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA00378 for bilb@eskimo.com; Wed, 14 May 1997 08:23:28 -0700
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:23:28 -0700
X-Envelope-From: Puthoff@aol.com  Wed May 14 08:23:24 1997
Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA15158; Wed, 14 May 1997 07:13:14 -0700
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	  Wed, 14 May 1997 10:12:38 -0400 (EDT)
Old-Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:12:38 -0400 (EDT)
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To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Simple Rotary Ou Device
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Greg,

In a message dated 5/14/97 6:02:25 AM, you wrote:

<<As a hint, think of how to build a ramp where the field graduations
REDUCE as the ball rolls up the ramp. >>

By this do you mean that the field intensity reduces, or that the gradient in
the intensity (force) reduces?

Hal Puthoff


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 14 14:21:25 1997
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        neotech@xbn.shore.net, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: harti@harti.com (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: Re: Simple Rotary Ou Device
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At 08:15 14.05.97 +0930, gwatson@microtronics.com.au wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>Just a short note to try to answer those questions I can.
>
>
>1) There is NO outside power source.
>
>2) The device contains only ceramic magnet and ferromagnetic materials
>(some balsa, a few bearings and some plactic "U" channel as well).
>
>3) The device produces rotary torque.  Can be stopped with very little
>pressure from two fingers on a steel 4mm shaft.
>
>


Hi Greg,

one important question.

What is the revolution per minute of your device ?

Can you at least post a JPEG pic of it, just showing the "body case housing"
of it, not revealing the contens ? ( So that nobody can say, Greg is just
"joking"..)
How big (size) is it in this moment ?

I talked with Dieter Bauer about your PM motor today and he suggested
that it might work on eddy currents building up in the iron stator and
thus the "V" form is important how fast the iron is sucked
into the rotating track and how fast it gets out.
Maybe you could try it with ferrite as the stator material and if this
still works, eddy currents do not play any role...

He also has some ideas of a theory of moving "potentials" which are
NOT conservative he told me, so energy could be generated by these 
"moving potentials".
He will try to formulate this
with some new mathematical formulas !

Good luck for your patent application.

Regards, Stefan.
--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 14 15:06:37 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:33:41 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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Puthoff@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Greg,
> 
> In a message dated 5/14/97 6:02:25 AM, you wrote:
> 
> <<As a hint, think of how to build a ramp where the field graduations
> REDUCE as the ball rolls up the ramp. >>
> 
> By this do you mean that the field intensity reduces, or that the gradient in
> the intensity (force) reduces?
> 
> Hal Puthoff

Hi Hal,

The field intensity decreases along the uphill path.

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 14 16:03:46 1997
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From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705142302.TAA19720@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: Tesla
To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com (science)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:02:21 -0400 (EDT)
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The Tesla book store has been updated!
http://www.frognet.net/~cantino/tesla/tesla.html


-- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 14 16:19:19 1997
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Message-ID: <01BC6093.1556CB80@isetta.mdm.mke.execpc.com>
From: Hawkeye <havveye@execpc.com>
To: "gwatson@microtronics.com.au" <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Cc: "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>,
        "neotech@xbn.shore.net"
	 <neotech@xbn.shore.net>,
        "newman-l@emachine.com"
	 <newman-l@emachine.com>,
        "vortex-l@eskimo.com"
	 <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Greg & Shirley Watson
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:42:34 -0500
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I would invest too, but my funds are very low at the moment.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 14 16:23:12 1997
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Message-ID: <337AB96C.48A3@netcomuk.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:21:16 -0700
From: Rob King <robk@netcomuk.co.uk>
Organization: Me
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Hi Greg,

Con-grats on getting the looped closed on your device.
Like a lot of people I have been watching your posts with baited breath, 
waiting for the point at which you succeed and you have, well done!

As soon as I saw your post I went downstairs to the kitchen, fetched out 
all my magnets, 2 alu carpet gripper rods, a mouse ball and had a play.

I set up the magnets in an arrow shape under the track with like poles 
acting towards the centre of the rod.

        \\\
    \\\\\\\\
=========================0=======
    ////////
        /// 

It seemed to go further along the track when there were magnets there, 
but I cannot be absolutely sure, because I may tend to push the ball 
quicker with the magnets in place because I want it to work.

I would love some pointers to get me off in the right direction with 
trying to reproduce this, anything you can give me?

I cannot help thinking that the answer to it working has something to do 
with the ball rolling though the field. In other words it would fail to 
work if the ball was attached to an arm that passed it though the device.

Maybe the Searl device works on a similar principle.

Look forward to hearing from you :)

Rob King

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 14 21:30:35 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:58:49 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Rob King wrote:
> 
> Hi Greg,
> 
> Con-grats on getting the looped closed on your device.
> Like a lot of people I have been watching your posts with baited breath,
> waiting for the point at which you succeed and you have, well done!
> 
> As soon as I saw your post I went downstairs to the kitchen, fetched out
> all my magnets, 2 alu carpet gripper rods, a mouse ball and had a play.
> 
> I set up the magnets in an arrow shape under the track with like poles
> acting towards the centre of the rod.

In my magnetic ramps, the poles are unlike ie  NS Ball NS with varing
magnetic strength to the top.  Your setup is interesting and I will give
it a try.  Repelling poles cause sometimes strange effects.

>         \\\
>     \\\\\\\\
> =========================0=======
>     ////////
>         ///
> 
> It seemed to go further along the track when there were magnets there,
> but I cannot be absolutely sure, because I may tend to push the ball
> quicker with the magnets in place because I want it to work.

Would suggest you bend up a bit of the track at the start (not too much)
and always release the ball at the top of the ramp.  This will reduce
variations in release energy and allow you to try different magnet
configs.

> I would love some pointers to get me off in the right direction with
> trying to reproduce this, anything you can give me?

Experiment, but try to develope testing systems which reduce human
variations.

> I cannot help thinking that the answer to it working has something to do
> with the ball rolling though the field. In other words it would fail to
> work if the ball was attached to an arm that passed it though the device.
> 
> Maybe the Searl device works on a similar principle.
> 
> Look forward to hearing from you :)
> 
> Rob King

Hi Rob,

My rotary device doesn't use a ramp (well as least not a angled ramp).

Keep building, it can happen!

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 14 23:58:25 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 18:30:08 +1000
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Geoff Egel <egel@main.murray.net.au>
Subject: Re: Need to find a supplier of ferrite rods In Australia
Resent-Message-ID: <"3iWeH3.0.fs4._FhUp"@mx2>
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At 06:48 PM 5/8/97 +1000, you wrote:
>Could someone on this newsgroup inform where I can purchase 
a ferrite rod to the following dimensions in Australia
>> ferrite rods "an inch and a half
>in diameter and nine or ten inches in length".

>http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel
>
>Geoff
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 15 00:12:56 1997
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Subject: Re: OBRL - Your vote needed to block new Nazi Usenet group
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Hi everybody,


I now the herbelow message does not relate to the activities of this email
list,but I know for sure that if such people were left in power there may
be no more email list as this one,also,please,"lets put some sand in their
wheels" it will only take you few seconds...
Apologise again for the disgression.
Best Wishes to all

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Orgone Biophysical Research Lab <demeo@mind.net>
http://id.mind.net/community/orgonelab/index.htm
Forwarded News Item

Please copy and distribute to other interested individuals and groups

**********

Submitted by Friedeman Becker, Germany <jfj@swamp.hb.north.de>

> We have understood that a few Neo-Nazi groups are trying to create
> (again) a usenet group where they want to keep in contact with each other
> regarding their activities. I believe it is not necessary to dwell further
> on these activities.

> The group is rec.music.white-power

> To create such a group, they have to win a referendum that is always
> organised when a new usenet group is created. All persons with an email
> address, and only those, can vote in this referendum.
> It is IMPORTANT to vote only once, otherwise the vote is cancelled.

> To prevent the creation of this group, you have to:
> 1. Send this message to people you know
> 2. Send an email to the following address:
> music-vote@sub-rosa.com
> with as contents (not 'subject') ONLY the following line:
> I vote NO on rec.music.white-power

> Since the vote is automatic, it is IMPORTANT to send the exact line as it
> is given above, without adding anything, not even a name. And please send
> it only once or it becomes invalid ! Also,
> PLEASE FORWARD THIS LETTER TO
> EVERYONE YOU KNOW WITH AN E-MAIL
> ADDRESS TO PREVENT THE GROUP FOUNDERS
> FROM CREATING THIS GROUP.

------ End of forwarded message -------

FRANCK ROUSSEL
http://www.infoemirates.com/otecnor
otecnor@emirates.net.ae
Tel: -- 971 4 341 335
Fax: -- 971 4 341 271
Po box 4613 Dubai
United Arab Emirates
Time: GMT + 4

FRANCK ROUSSEL
http://www.infoemirates.com/otecnor
otecnor@emirates.net.ae
Tel: -- 971 4 341 335
Fax: -- 971 4 341 271
Po box 4613 Dubai
United Arab Emirates
Time: GMT + 4


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 15 12:16:04 1997
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: pgb@padrak.com (Patrick Bailey)
Subject: Schauberger Seminar Announcement
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:51:19 -0700
From: Stephan Fuelling <fuelling@powernet.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: pgb@padrak.com
Subject: Schauberger Seminar Announcement

Dear Pat,

I received a letter that was forwarded to me from Germany about a series
of seminars in Bad Ischl, Austria. The schedule is July 11 - 13, July 14
- 17, and July 18 - 20. Title " Seminarreihe PKS & Familie Schauberger,
Bad Ischl, Sommer 1997". PKS stands for 'Pythagoras - Kepler - Schule'.
There is a forth seminar from July 25 - July 27, which is targeted to
exchange experience of practitioners. I think with 'practitioners' are
meant experimenters. The seminars are most definitely held in German,
but if anybody is interested, I can fax or send copies of the seminar
announcements to people that are interested.

Seminar 1: 7/11 - 7/13
Victor Schauberger - Personality and concept of his teaching of nature:
- Structural ignorance, the obstacle on the way to a better energy
future
- The protection of forest and water requires the respect of nature:
  The work of Victor Schauberger as an exemplary figure
- From the observation of water to techniques in hydraulic engineering
- Movie about 'Schwemmanlage' (alluvial plant ?) in Neuberg, sound
recordings of Victor Schauberger

Seminar 2: 7/14 - 7/17
Advanced Studies:
- Substance and energy conversion processes from the viewpoint of Victor
Schauberger
- The 'roll in system' from the viewpoint of Victor Schauberger
- Protection of water bodies requires the knowledge of the structure and
the behavior of water.
- Presentation of the CD-ROM "Water - the Blood of the Earth"
- Structural ignorance, the obstacle on the way to a better energy
future

Seminar 3: 7/18 - 7/20
Basic Studies:
- Victor Schauberger's observation in nature and conclusion
- Victor Schauberger's practical works
- Victor Schauberger's view with regards to substance and energy
conversion processes
- Construction view points for processes and devices adopted from nature
- Nature's mathematics by Walter Schauberger
- Reaction devices under the application of vortex processes

Seminar 4: 7/25 - 7/27
Experience exchange of practitioners (experimenters):
- Water thread experiment
- Flow experiment with hyperbolical cylinders
- 'Wendelrohr' (spiral tube), 'Sogwendel' (suction tube), and home power
generator
- Double membrane ('Repulsator', 'Repulsine') (I can't translate that,
these are Victor Schaubergers own word inventions)
- Agricultural devices made of copper
- Chronology of inventions by Walter and Victor Schauberger

The costs for seminar 1 or 3 are S 2,700.- each (about $230) for
individuals and S 2,100 each (about $180) for students or retirees.
The cost for seminar 2 is S 3,500.- (about $300) for individuals and S
2,800 (about $240) each for students or retirees.

Accommodations can be made through the Kurdirektion (visitor center) Bad
Ischl. The costs per day (incl. breakfast) are between S 1070.- (about
$90) and S 370.- (about $35) per person.

The dollar amounts are an educated guess of mine, and are not
necessarily very accurate, but they should be within the bulk part.

There is an e-mail address for reservations: schauberger@pks.or.at

You might want to distribute this to your news group, and maybe post it
also on your web page, if you like. The above is only a summary of the
announcement I received by mail, but it reflects what it is about.

With best regards, Stephan


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 15 15:24:24 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 17:22:51 -0500
From: andrew <gyro@centuryinter.net>
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Does anyone have any information about Keely's flying device ?
-- 
   ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
   ?                                                       ?
   ?...The truth is out there,                             ?
   ?			       if you know where to look...?
   ?                                           -andrew r.  ?
   ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 15 15:39:26 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 17:35:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: John Fields <starship@fc.net>
Subject: Re: keely's craft
To: andrew <gyro@centuryinter.net>
cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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On Thu, 15 May 1997, andrew wrote:

> Does anyone have any information about Keely's flying device ?
> -- 
>    ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
>    ?                                                       ?
>    ?...The truth is out there,                             ?
>    ?			       if you know where to look...?
>    ?                                           -andrew r.  ?
>    ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
--------------------------------------------------------------
andrew,

The truth is out there, whether you know where to look or not.

John Fields
-----------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 15 15:50:47 1997
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Message-ID: <337B92BD.605A@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:18:29 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Simple Rotary Ou Device
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970515124658.8662A-100000@eskimo.com>
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William Beaty wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 15 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote:
> 
> > William Beaty wrote:
> > >
> > > Greg, does your rotary device have a perfectly circular path inside, or is
> > > the active member moving up and down against gravity?
> >
> > Yes.
> 
> Oops!  'Yes' it's a perfect circle, or 'yes' it's moving up and down?  If
> it moves up and down, then the path is more like a cylindrical surface.
> (If it's a perfect circle, then the ball could easily be glued to the edge
> of a wheel.)

Up and down.

> > > The ramp devices and the Finstrud device
> > > both require gravity for operation.  If your rotary version also usues
> > > gravity, then perhaps the effect depends on gravity and cannot occur
> > > without up/down motion.
> >
> > At present that is true, however I am currently building a new device
> > which doesn't use gravity.  There are many other linear restortative
> > forces available.
> 
> Have you seen o/u effects when no ramps were used?  In other words, if you
> flatten out your magnet ramp device, does the excess speed seem to become
> less?  I'm still wondering if gravity might be required.  It's one thing
> to theorize that gravity MAY not be necessary, or that another force MIGHT
> be able to be substituted.  It's quite a different matter to have tested
> it and know for sure.

Flattened ramps can MOVE objects with very little mag differential.

> > I suspect wheel mounted balls will not work.  The ramp works, I believe
> > because the field contours up the ramp and on exit are different.
> 
> So, if the iron ball takes a perfectly straight (not sawtooth) path
> through the device, there's no way to juggle the magnet positions in order
> to produce the o/u drive effect?

There seems to be many active elements :

1) Highly distorted magnetic fields.

2) Highly different field contours on entry and exit, somewhat tied to
ball size.

3) Differential restortative forces on entry and exit.

4) Staying on the centre line between the magnets.  Sort of like Wesley
Gary's experiments.  This really complicates things as the ball
experiences many magnetic forces.

5) Ball size and "U" channel width.

6) Physical geometry of the exit path (critical).

7) Probably some others I haven't thought of YET.

> Imagine this: flatten the ramp, then curve it upwards slightly.  Then,
> rather than releasing a free iron ball, instead fling an iron pendulum bob
> through the slot.  If the length of the pendulum string matches the radius
> of ramp curvature, then you have a nearly-frictionless system.  Of course
> the gravity effects at the exit of the ramp are gone.  But if a
> "flattened"  magnet ramp device can work, then a curved one should work
> too, no?  The curvature could be pretty slight.  If the pendulum is
> attached to a 9ft ceiling, a 10inch magnet track's curvature would be
> nearly undetectable.

Hi Bill,

I haven't been able to get a straight ramp to release a ball, but I
haven't really done a lot of work on this.  My throught are that the
field contours are very severe on straight through exit.  Look at the
Gifs I posted on the field contours under the magnets.  Very different
than straight through exit.  Johnson did a lot of work in this area. 
Seems the trick is to achieve a moderate field contour which somewhat
matches the geometry of the ball and what is happening to its
permeability movement on its B/H curve.  I could be wrong here, but the
data seems to be pointing that way.

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 15 16:07:49 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 18:04:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: John Fields <starship@fc.net>
Subject: Re: OBRL - Your vote needed to block new Nazi Usenet group
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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On Thu, 15 May 1997, otecnor wrote:

> 
> Hi everybody,
> 
> 
> I now the herbelow message does not relate to the activities of this email
> list,but I know for sure that if such people were left in power there may
> be no more email list as this one,also,please,"lets put some sand in their
> wheels" it will only take you few seconds...
> Apologise again for the disgression.
> Best Wishes to all
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Orgone Biophysical Research Lab <demeo@mind.net>
> http://id.mind.net/community/orgonelab/index.htm
> Forwarded News Item
> 
> Please copy and distribute to other interested individuals and groups
> 
> **********
> 
> Submitted by Friedeman Becker, Germany <jfj@swamp.hb.north.de>
> 
> > We have understood that a few Neo-Nazi groups are trying to create
> > (again) a usenet group where they want to keep in contact with each other
> > regarding their activities. I believe it is not necessary to dwell further
> > on these activities.
> 
> > The group is rec.music.white-power
> 
> > To create such a group, they have to win a referendum that is always
> > organised when a new usenet group is created. All persons with an email
> > address, and only those, can vote in this referendum.
> > It is IMPORTANT to vote only once, otherwise the vote is cancelled.
> 
> > To prevent the creation of this group, you have to:
> > 1. Send this message to people you know
> > 2. Send an email to the following address:
> > music-vote@sub-rosa.com
> > with as contents (not 'subject') ONLY the following line:
> > I vote NO on rec.music.white-power
> 
> > Since the vote is automatic, it is IMPORTANT to send the exact line as it
> > is given above, without adding anything, not even a name. And please send
> > it only once or it becomes invalid ! Also,
> > PLEASE FORWARD THIS LETTER TO
> > EVERYONE YOU KNOW WITH AN E-MAIL
> > ADDRESS TO PREVENT THE GROUP FOUNDERS
> > FROM CREATING THIS GROUP.
> 
> ------ End of forwarded message -------
> 
> FRANCK ROUSSEL
> http://www.infoemirates.com/otecnor
> otecnor@emirates.net.ae
> Tel: -- 971 4 341 335
> Fax: -- 971 4 341 271
> Po box 4613 Dubai
> United Arab Emirates
> Time: GMT + 4
> 
> FRANCK ROUSSEL
> http://www.infoemirates.com/otecnor
> otecnor@emirates.net.ae
> Tel: -- 971 4 341 335
> Fax: -- 971 4 341 271
> Po box 4613 Dubai
> United Arab Emirates
> Time: GMT + 4
---------------
Oh, I get it!

First we block this Nazi group, then maybe another "unsavory" group, then 
maybe someone will ask us to block your comments, then...

John Fields
-----------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 15 17:26:55 1997
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From: Geoff Egel <egel@main.murray.net.au>
Subject: Re: OBRL - Your vote needed to block new Nazi Usenet group
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At 06:04 PM 5/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>On Thu, 15 May 1997, otecnor wrote:
>
>> 
>> Hi everybody,
>> 
>> 
>> I now the herbelow message does not relate to the activities of this email
>> list,but I know for sure that if such people were left in power there may
>> be no more email list as this one,also,please,"lets put some sand in their
>> wheels" it will only take you few seconds...
>> Apologise again for the disgression.
>> Best Wishes to all
>> 
>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Orgone Biophysical Research Lab <demeo@mind.net>
>> http://id.mind.net/community/orgonelab/index.htm
>> Forwarded News Item
>> 
>> Please copy and distribute to other interested individuals and groups
>> 
>> **********
>> 
>> Submitted by Friedeman Becker, Germany <jfj@swamp.hb.north.de>
>> 
>> > We have understood that a few Neo-Nazi groups are trying to create
>> > (again) a usenet group where they want to keep in contact with each other
>> > regarding their activities. I believe it is not necessary to dwell further
>> > on these activities.
>> 
>> > The group is rec.music.white-power
>> 
>> > To create such a group, they have to win a referendum that is always
>> > organised when a new usenet group is created. All persons with an email
>> > address, and only those, can vote in this referendum.
>> > It is IMPORTANT to vote only once, otherwise the vote is cancelled.
>> 
>> > To prevent the creation of this group, you have to:
>> > 1. Send this message to people you know
>> > 2. Send an email to the following address:
>> > music-vote@sub-rosa.com
>> > with as contents (not 'subject') ONLY the following line:
>> > I vote NO on rec.music.white-power
>> 
>> > Since the vote is automatic, it is IMPORTANT to send the exact line as it
>> > is given above, without adding anything, not even a name. And please send
>> > it only once or it becomes invalid ! Also,
>> > PLEASE FORWARD THIS LETTER TO
>> > EVERYONE YOU KNOW WITH AN E-MAIL
>> > ADDRESS TO PREVENT THE GROUP FOUNDERS
>> > FROM CREATING THIS GROUP.
>> 
>> ------ End of forwarded message -------
>> 
>> FRANCK ROUSSEL
>> http://www.infoemirates.com/otecnor
>> otecnor@emirates.net.ae
>> Tel: -- 971 4 341 335
>> Fax: -- 971 4 341 271
>> Po box 4613 Dubai
>> United Arab Emirates
>> Time: GMT + 4
>> 
>> FRANCK ROUSSEL
>> http://www.infoemirates.com/otecnor
>> otecnor@emirates.net.ae
>> Tel: -- 971 4 341 335
>> Fax: -- 971 4 341 271
>> Po box 4613 Dubai
>> United Arab Emirates
>> Time: GMT + 4
>---------------
>Oh, I get it!
>
>First we block this Nazi group, then maybe another "unsavory" group, then 
>maybe someone will ask us to block your comments, then...
>
>John Fields
>-----------
>
>Whilst I don't agreee with the activities of any racial exclusive group
I don't think they should be also not be be prevented from expressing an
their views.

Better to have it out in the open so all who wish  can go and  see what they
are  up to.
>
Geof

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 15 18:45:13 1997
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From: M2Milly@aol.com
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:43:28 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970515214256_-1834390395@emout19.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: keely's craft
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In a message dated 97-05-15 21:12:47 EDT, you write:

<< > Does anyone have any information about Keely's flying device ?
 > -- 
 >    ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
 >    ?                                                       ?
 >    ?...The truth is out there,                             ?
 >    ?			       if you know where to look...?
 >    ?                                           -andrew r.  ?
 >    ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
 --------------------------------------------------------------
 andrew,
 
 The truth is out there, whether you know where to look or not.
 
 John Fields >>

Methinks the truth is inside of each of us and I don't think its a place, but
a personality  -- intent not event.

Polara  :))
still smiling after all these years

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 15 20:41:39 1997
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Message-ID: <337BD71D.EF63A8C@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:10:13 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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        List Server Vortex <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Simple OU Device
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Scott Becker wrote:
> 
> Hey Greg,
> 
> If your patent application is denied, will you then detail your
> device?
> 
>                 Just curious, Scott Becker

Hi Scott,

As most of it has been posted already in bits and pieces, that seems to
be the way to go.  Hadn't thought of a knock back though.  Its good to
have many minds online.

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 15 20:43:26 1997
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From: skot@compumedia.com (Scott Becker)
Subject: Gary Motor
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Last night I read the article and built the second model shown.
It worked as far as moving the metal away from the stationary magnet
to less than half way toward the pivoting one did make the pivoting
one go down. It barely works so I can't try to make it self running
without a better setup.

What I think is happening as far as the neutral zone is concerned is
the iron is becoming saturated. When the metal is closer to the magnet
it is saturated so there is extra flux appearing at the ends.

If this is true then the polarity at the ends of the metal is changing
but the flux direction through the middle is staying the same.

In the article it says that the metal is sized according to the strength
of the magnet. Which indicates that it is becoming saturated.

I think that the rotary version of his device should be buildable.

I'm not at all sure if the generator version is OU but if all we have
to do is wind a coil with an under size core and move it in and out of
saturation then it should be quite easy to find out.


                                    Scott Becker

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 15 21:35:52 1997
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Message-ID: <337BE3DE.1D3EFC39@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:04:38 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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Scott Becker wrote:
> 
> Last night I read the article and built the second model shown.
> It worked as far as moving the metal away from the stationary magnet
> to less than half way toward the pivoting one did make the pivoting
> one go down. It barely works so I can't try to make it self running
> without a better setup.
> 
> What I think is happening as far as the neutral zone is concerned is
> the iron is becoming saturated. When the metal is closer to the magnet
> it is saturated so there is extra flux appearing at the ends.
> 
> If this is true then the polarity at the ends of the metal is changing
> but the flux direction through the middle is staying the same.
> 
> In the article it says that the metal is sized according to the
> strength
> of the magnet. Which indicates that it is becoming saturated.
> 
> I think that the rotary version of his device should be buildable.
> 
> I'm not at all sure if the generator version is OU but if all we have
> to do is wind a coil with an under size core and move it in and out of
> saturation then it should be quite easy to find out.
> 
>                                     Scott Becker

Hi Scott,

I too have played with some of Gary's ideas.

Use ceramic magnets as Neos can easily saturate the iron and even punch
flux through.

Interesting stuff for the 1800's.

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 16 02:57:35 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:45:17 +0400
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: otecnor@emirates.net.ae (otecnor)
Subject: Re: OBRL - Your vote needed to block new Nazi Usenet group
Resent-Message-ID: <"F5rhh3.0.EI.6-2Vp"@mx1>
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>On Thu, 15 May 1997, otecnor wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi everybody,
>>
>>
>> I now the herbelow message does not relate to the activities of this email
..snip...
>Oh, I get it!
>
>First we block this Nazi group, then maybe another "unsavory" group, then
>maybe someone will ask us to block your comments, then...
>
>John Fields
>-----------

Hi John,

You are perfectly true,please accept apologies for my short view and
resulting  action..

All the Best

FRANCK ROUSSEL
http://www.infoemirates.com/otecnor
otecnor@emirates.net.ae
Tel: -- 971 4 341 335
Fax: -- 971 4 341 271
Po box 4613 Dubai
United Arab Emirates
Time: GMT + 4


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 16 03:39:58 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 03:39:46 -0700 (PDT)
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: JohnnyFG@algonet.se (Johnny Feelgood)
Subject: Re: FREE COPIES of my Encyclopedia of free energy
Resent-Message-ID: <"KOFj22.0.aS5.tb3Vp"@mx2>
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>To those that have asked  I will be from the 24 of May 97  be placing
>a seperate page from the html version of my encyclopedia of free energy with 
>a new page replacing it each week,  so that it can be download by you and
>stored on your disk or hard disk to give you a complete up to date free
version.
>Period that  this will run for will be approx twenty weeks
>no repeats will occurr in those weeks.
>Unfortunately I cannot email those page seperately to users.
>For more information check out my website
>http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel

A idea could be to announce a site where all these pages will be stored so
others could get this information after this period of twenty weeks...
exit --- I vote for a flat society - like internet!
mailto:JohnnyFG@algonet.se
http://www.algonet.se/~johnnyfg/index.htm

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 16 05:54:59 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 05:36:35 +0000
From: Dorian-Blue <Dorian-Blue@prodigy.net>
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Geoff Egel wrote:
> 

> Whilst I don't agreee with the activities of any racial exclusive group
> I don't think they should be also not be be prevented from expressing an
> their views.
> 
> Better to have it out in the open so all who wish  can go and  see what they
> are  up to.
> >
> Geof


I like your thinking, Geof.  Kind of reminds me of the sage advice,
"Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer."  More than that, I
fear censorship under any disguise.

Dorian

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 16 08:18:13 1997
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Subject: Re: Muller/Curtiss/The Wrights
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----------
> From: Newman-l <newman-l@emachine.com>
> To: crosiar@goldrush.com
> Subject: Muller/Curtiss/The Wrights
> Date: Friday, May 16, 1997 7:03 AM
> 
> From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:03:13 -0600
> Subject: Muller/Curtiss/The Wrights
> 
> From: HLafonte@aol.com
> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:42:54 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Muller motor
> 
> Hey guys, (and gals)
>     Is the work of a Mr. Muller in the area of electrical motors and
> generators (overunity) " common knowledge"  or is he new on the scene
(with
> respect to going public) ? I found some pretty wild claims at his web
site
> http://www.aa.net/~mwm/magnet/mmtechpro7.html
> Let me know what you think.
> Thanks, Butch LaFonte
> 
> 
> Dear Butch,
> 
> We have been aware of Muller for over a year.  My initial awareness came
> after I posted informational documents regarding Joseph Newman's
technology
> on another List and a Mr. Mandeville (Mr. Muller's representative)
> responded with unwarranted and initiated sarcastic attacks upon myself
and
> Joseph Newman.  After that time, the interface between Mr. Mandeville and
> myself has been hostile, at best.  Later, Mr. Mandeville posted
information
> regarding Muller.
> 
> Joseph Newman has placed Mr. Mandeville on notice that any attempt to
steal
> his technology by Mr. Muller and/or others will be met with a legal
> response.  While it would be so easy for all parties to reach a mutually
> profitable licensing agreement (and Joe has always indicated a very
modest
> royalty for the utilization of his technology), there are those who
prefer
> theft to moral utilization of the technology developed by another.
> 

> Evan:Can you tell me exactly what the Newman patent covers.
It has long been understood that uning more [longer] wire will increase
efficiency.
The latest Newman design is the same as the 1888 Tesla patent #381,970
including the permanent magnets on the rotor, the phasing and winding setup
[magnetic polarity reversal every one hundred and eighty degrees], as well
as the same commutator design. The only difference in this motor [Tesla,s]
is that it uses generator windings on the same core as the motor windings,
which actually should be an improvment. Also the stator windings are wound
on a torroidal core made of multiple strips of soft wire, which may or may
not be an improvment over the Newman design. Using multiple segments on the
commutator has been practiced for years on commercial generators.
  Does Joe have patent protection without a patent.  Also how does the
Newman motor design resemble the Muller technology or John Bedini's motor
designs. While it is apparent that the Newman motor uses the best of
existing technology, what is it that is new. 
  I wanted to ask these questions when I first saw the Newman motor design,
because I had the 1888 Tesla patent on the desk at the same time I saw the
Newman schematic, but I didn't want to offend anyone. This is not meant as
an attack, I believe the Newman motor is a great motor. I just don't
understand what exactly is being patented here and what technology is being
stolen.
  THANKS WES

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 16 09:51:16 1997
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Julius Csatary <jcsatary@worldchat.com>
Subject: Re: (no subject)
X-Diagnostic: Not on the accept list
X-Envelope-To: freenrg-l
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 03:20 PM 5/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
>PLEASE FORWARD INFO ON UNSUb
>CRIBING
>Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Content-Description: Card for Geoffm1
>Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf"
>
>Attachment Converted: C:\WCHAT\jcsatary.dir\vcard.vcf

Geoff:
  I have been trying to unsuscribe for some time now BUT am unable to do
so... I keep getting the List... When I first subscribed it at - wchat.on.ca
- Since then the name has changed to - worldchat.com - They tell me either
address is OK... 
  I have tried both ways but to no avail... I do not undestand your
"vcard.vcf" so maybe you could enlighten me...
  Either way I do want to UNSUBSCRIBE from freenrg-l 

RGDS  Julius 

PS:...  This is the original message I used when I subscribed...

To subscribe to freenrg-digest, send a blank message to:

   freenrg-digest-request@eskimo.com

with the word "subscribe" in the subject line of the message header.

Once you have started receiving digests, you can unsubscribe from the
normal freenrg-L message traffic.  To unsubscribe, send a blank message to:

  freenrg-L-request@eskimo.com

with the word "subscribe" in the subject line of the message header. 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 16 10:26:31 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:28:13 -0600
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Subject: Re: Muller/Curtiss/The Wrights
Resent-Message-ID: <"ooWs03.0.hX5.wY9Vp"@mx1>
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>----------
>> From: Newman-l <newman-l@emachine.com>
>> To: crosiar@goldrush.com
>> Subject: Muller/Curtiss/The Wrights
>> Date: Friday, May 16, 1997 7:03 AM
>>
>> From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
>> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:03:13 -0600
>> Subject: Muller/Curtiss/The Wrights
>>
>> From: HLafonte@aol.com
>> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:42:54 -0400 (EDT)
>> Subject: Muller motor
>>
snip--
>  THANKS WES

Dear Wes,

No offense taken and I appreciate the sincerity of your honest questions.

Personally, I would love to provide you with a detailed response to your
query.  However, out of deference to the specific legal advice of Joseph
Newman's attorney, and since these are claim issues which may directly bear
upon future litigation, I cannot provide you at this time with an answer to
your honest query.

As I have stated before, the ultimate fault lies not with any given
individual and/or inventor --- IMHO, the ultimate fault lies with the
patent office and with the PROVEN technical incompetent(s) which that
office has chosen to employ.

Very sincerely,

Evan
Director of Information
NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS
josephnewman@earthlink.net
(504) 524-3063
P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684
Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087
          http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html



"How few understand the PHYSICAL lines of force!  They will not see them,
yet all the researches on the subject tend to confirm the views I put forth
many years since.  Thompson of Glasgow seems almost the only one who
acknowledges them.  He is perhaps the nearest to understanding what I
meant.  I am content to wait convinced as I am of the truth of my views."
                              --- MICHAEL FARADAY

"In speaking of the Energy of the field, however, I wish to be understood
LITERALLY.  All energy is the same as mechanical energy, whether it exists
in the form of motion or in that of elasticity, or in any other form.  The
energy in electromagnetic phenomena is _mechanical_ energy."
                              --- JAMES CLERK MAXWELL

"According to the general theory of relativity, space is equipped
with PHYSICAL qualities; an aether in this sense therefore exists.
Space without aether is unthinkable with respect to the general theory
of relativity..."             --- ALBERT EINSTEIN

".... the magnetic field consists of gyroscopic-type particles which are
the mechanical essence of E=mc^2 and represent an orderly flow of kinetic
energy."
                              --- JOSEPH NEWMAN



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 16 10:57:03 1997
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Message-ID: <337CAD12.7D7C@keelynet.com>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:53:06 -0700
From: Jerry <jdecker@keelynet.com>
Organization: KeelyNet
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: keely's craft
References: <970515214256_-1834390395@emout19.mail.aol.com>
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Hi Andrew!  Do a search on AIRSHIP, if that does not show it at a 
KeelyNet mirror, I will post what information I have on the device along 
with a graphic of the aerial propeller, it was supposed to have done 500 
mph in a demonstration for the US War Department in 1893....(there was 
only the War Department, no division in services at that time)....strange 
that many of the 1897 airship mysteries occurred shortly after this 
demonstration.....we also have several related files about the airship 
mysteries and an old fellow with a long beard who claimed to have been 
shown 'by his uncle', how to cause any object to float in the air by 
using a wire, and I don't mean suspended from something else....bits and 
pieces...good luck, let me know if you can't find the airship files and 
I'll post a special page on them at KeelyNet below....but give me some 
time, will be on a project for the next 3 weeks or so....seeya!
-- 
               Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker@keelynet.com
        http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
       Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
     KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 16 16:10:51 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:49:24 -0400
From: ce3cwf = felix meyer <ce3cwf@cmet.net>
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WESLY wrote:
> 
> ... ...
> 
> The latest Newman design is the same as the 1888 Tesla patent #381,970
> including the permanent magnets on the rotor, the phasing and winding setup
> [magnetic polarity reversal every one hundred and eighty degrees], as well
> as the same commutator design. The only difference in this motor [Tesla,s]
> is that it uses generator windings on the same core as the motor windings,
> which actually should be an improvment. 
> ...

Hi WES,
Re: #381,970
I was searching the IBM Patent Server and could not find this one.
Can you tell me where to find it ?

Many thanks

Felix
-- 
mailto:ce3cwf@cmet.net

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 16 16:11:21 1997
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Message-ID: <337CE92D.3449@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 08:39:33 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net,
        freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: The "Watson Effect" by the Numbers
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Hi All,

I have just finished the first version of my OU toy.

It is a closed loop system.

Over the next several weeks, I will release a series of "How to
Duplicate" posts.

These posts will be restricted to Bill Beaty's Freenrg list.  If you
wish to be involved and ACTUALLY build a unit yourself, subscribe to
freenrg.  I am doing this to reduce traffic on the other lists.

The unit I will describe is only flee power, but it will work and PROVES
magnetic based OU is possible.

I am doing this to ENCOURAGE others to think outside the square and
maybe see further than I have.

Each post will present a simple to build device.  I encourage ALL of you
to BUILD and ACTUALLY experiment.  I expect much discussion from our
more theory enriched friends on WHY and HOW the presented device works,
hopefully based on the unit they have built.

In the final installment, I will show you how to tie all the previous
experiments together and build your own OU toy.  I hope some of you will
do this yourself and beat me there.  If so, be patient and wait for me
to finish before you present the other 100 ways you have found to make
it happen.

What do I want from all this?  

   1) To find out what the cost will be of tapping this energy source!
   2) To create a spark in one of you, who will see how to do this
better!
   3) For the "Watson Effect" to be remembered!
   4) Because the world has too many people who just talk theory!
   5) Because I am a nice guy who wants to give something back, REALLY!

So ............. Tune into the Freengr channel and be a part of history.

I will start on Tuesday (Much to prepare before then).

And NO the toy is NOT my device, just another way to do it (Hopefully
the second of many).

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 16 17:00:02 1997
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From: J.F.Schenk@t-online.de (Juergen F. Schenk)
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Hi All,

FRANCK ROUSSEL sent a message with this:

>Please copy and distribute to other interested individuals and groups

>**********
>
>Submitted by Friedeman Becker, Germany <jfj@swamp.hb.north.de>
>

and some of us replied in the same sense as John Fields wrote:

>Oh, I get it!
>First we block this Nazi group, then maybe another "unsavory" group, 
>then
>maybe someone will ask us to block your comments, then...

and I also thought so when I received this message yesterday.
Since I live in germany like Friedeman Becker, I wrote him directly and 
he replied me today that he mailed these things only to some friends a 
long time ago and does not know, how it could reach our mailing list. So 
I think we should simply skip the whole thing. 

Best Regards
Juergen

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 16 20:13:53 1997
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Message-Id: <337D21F2.54F@centuryinter.net>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:11:46 -0500
From: andrew <gyro@centuryinter.net>
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Organization: the truth is out there 
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: keely's craft
References: <970515214256_-1834390395@emout19.mail.aol.com> <337CAD12.7D7C@keelynet.com>
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Jerry wrote:
> 
> Hi Andrew!  Do a search on AIRSHIP, if that does not show it at a
> KeelyNet mirror, I will post what information I have on the device along
> with a graphic of the aerial propeller, it was supposed to have done 500
> mph in a demonstration for the US War Department in 1893....(there was
> only the War Department, no division in services at that time)....strange
> that many of the 1897 airship mysteries occurred shortly after this
> demonstration.....we also have several related files about the airship
> mysteries and an old fellow with a long beard who claimed to have been
> shown 'by his uncle', how to cause any object to float in the air by
> using a wire, and I don't mean suspended from something else....bits and
> pieces...good luck, let me know if you can't find the airship files and
> I'll post a special page on them at KeelyNet below....but give me some
> time, will be on a project for the next 3 weeks or so....seeya!
> --
>                Jerry W. Decker   /   jdecker@keelynet.com
>         http://www.keelynet.com  /  "From an Art to a Science"
>        Voice :  (214) 324-8741   /   KeelyNet BBS (214) 324-3501
>      KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite, Republic of Texas - 75187

Thank you! I'll try that!

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 16 20:49:20 1997
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Cc: skot@compumedia.com
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 20:40:19 PST
Subject: Re: Gary Motor
Message-ID: <19970306.204021.9910.1.tv@juno.com>
References: <199705160342.UAA16557@ganymede.compumedia.com>
X-Mailer: Juno 1.00
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From: tv@juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
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Hi Scott,

I am also gathering materials to try to replicate the Gary Magnet Motor.

The facts included in the article and some genealogical and geographical
research I have done convince me that the article is true.  I believe
Wesley Gary built
the device but could not attract enough interest in it at the time
because
of the very low power levels.  It has many parallels to the ball and
track
machine that Greg Watson has been telling us (a little) about.

I am very much encouraged to try these experiments now that Greg Watson
has
succeeded in making his ball and track contraption run.  We have to take
his word
for it, but I have been reading all of his posting and they have the ring
of truth,
especially since he says it is working on the same principle (apparently)
as
Gary's device. 

I would very much like to keep a correspondence going with you as we
progress.  We can be an encouragement to each other as well.

  Please be patient with your experimenting and keep careful
notes.   As Wesley Gary found out, it requires considerable patience to
obtain a continuous motion.

I am first trying to duplicate the beam balance version first since it seems the simplest to understand.  I am making mine quite large so I can
work with it easily.
I found it easy to confirm the neutral point effects with small nail
described in the article.  The "neutral point" seems to be were the soft
iron has a net zero magnetization.  In other words, as many spins aligned
in one direction as the other.
There may even be an internal magnetic path established in the soft iron
that create adjacent ustable regions of polorization (large domain
boundaries).


Have you seen a good source of large horseshoe magnets ?

How about cow magnets ?  They are steel like Wesley Gay would have used
and they are certainly cheap enough, about $1.50 each at local vet supply.

What are you using for the soft iron ?

Mostly what I have found seems to be steel.


Tim
( tv@juno.com )




On Thu, 15 May 1997 20:42:24 -0700 (PDT) skot@compumedia.com (Scott
Becker) writes:
>
>Last night I read the article and built the second model shown.
>It worked as far as moving the metal away from the stationary magnet
>to less than half way toward the pivoting one did make the pivoting
>one go down. It barely works so I can't try to make it self running
>without a better setup.
>
>What I think is happening as far as the neutral zone is concerned is
>the iron is becoming saturated. When the metal is closer to the magnet
>it is saturated so there is extra flux appearing at the ends.
>
>If this is true then the polarity at the ends of the metal is changing
>but the flux direction through the middle is staying the same.
>
>In the article it says that the metal is sized according to the 
>strength
>of the magnet. Which indicates that it is becoming saturated.
>
>I think that the rotary version of his device should be buildable.
>
>I'm not at all sure if the generator version is OU but if all we have
>to do is wind a coil with an under size core and move it in and out of
>saturation then it should be quite easy to find out.
>
>
>                                    Scott Becker
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 16 21:10:06 1997
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 15:43:15 +1000
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Geoff Egel <egel@main.murray.net.au>
Subject: Re: FREE COPIES of my Encyclopedia of free energy
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At 03:39 AM 5/16/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>To those that have asked  I will be from the 24 of May 97  be placing
>>a seperate page from the html version of my encyclopedia of free energy with 
>>a new page replacing it each week,  so that it can be download by you and
>>stored on your disk or hard disk to give you a complete up to date free
>version.
>>Period that  this will run for will be approx twenty weeks
>>no repeats will occurr in those weeks.
>>Unfortunately I cannot email those page seperately to users.
>>For more information check out my website
>>http://www2.murray.net.au/users/egel
>
>A idea could be to announce a site where all these pages will be stored so
>others could get this information after this period of twenty weeks...
>exit --- I vote for a flat society - like internet!
>mailto:JohnnyFG@algonet.se
>http://www.algonet.se/~johnnyfg/
>I sorry after twenty weeks they will no longer be available and I can only
place one page each week and then it is removed .If I have any more
I exceed my web page allocation.
Geoff

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 16 21:26:33 1997
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To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 21:16:20 PST
Subject: Re: The "Watson Effect" by the Numbers
Message-ID: <19970306.211622.9910.2.tv@juno.com>
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Hi Greg,

Most excellent !!  I will following your serial with great interest and
will put
every effort I can to follow your instructions in an attempt to duplicate
it.

Thank You for not falling into the patent trap !  If you would like to
read a
confirmation of the wisdom of your decision to publish and share your
discovery, read the articles by Don Lancaster, a famous electronics
author in the US.

He writes articles in Popular Electronics, Electronics Now, and Nuts and
Volts
magazine.   His web page is < www.tinaja.com >.  He gives many compelling
reasons why patents are a big money and energy sink.

But first, please write your articles on the "ball and track machine".
I am waiting with great interest as history unfolds !

Tim Vaughan  ( tv@juno.com)
Electronics Instructor,  Yosemite Community College

On Sat, 17 May 1997 08:39:33 +0930 Greg Watson
<gwatson@microtronics.com.au> writes:
>Hi All,
>
>I have just finished the first version of my OU toy.
>
>It is a closed loop system.
>
>Over the next several weeks, I will release a series of "How to
>Duplicate" posts.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 16 22:17:03 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 22:14:39 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: The "Watson Effect" by the Numbers
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Hi Greg,

Great news! This would save time and money for your device to be duplicated
by others. We can then proceed to figure out how to make a home power size
unit. I look forward to building the closed loop system!

Best Regards,
Michael Randall

At 08:39 AM 5/17/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>I have just finished the first version of my OU toy.
>
>It is a closed loop system.
>
>Over the next several weeks, I will release a series of "How to
>Duplicate" posts.
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 16 23:53:54 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:53:06 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970517025305_1557239989@emout04.mail.aol.com>
To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re : The "Watson Effect" by the Numbers
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On 17/05/1997 01:25:07  , you wrote :

<< Date :	17/05/1997 01:25:07  
 From:	gwatson@microtronics.com.au (Greg Watson)
 
 I have just finished the first version of my OU toy.
 
 It is a closed loop system.
 
 Over the next several weeks, I will release a series of "How to
 Duplicate" posts.
 
 These posts will be restricted to Bill Beaty's Freenrg list.  If you
 wish to be involved and ACTUALLY build a unit yourself, subscribe to
 freenrg.  I am doing this to reduce traffic on the other lists.
 
 The unit I will describe is only flee power, but it will work and PROVES
 magnetic based OU is possible.
  >>

Hi Greg,

WONDERFULL, I think that you have choosen the good way.

You will perhaps be remembered for O/U as ORWILL WRIGHT or CLEMENT ADER for
aviation.

Sincerely,

Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 17 01:02:30 1997
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Warning: Horshoe magnets are very often magnetized only on the ends instead
of their whole volume.  4" to 6" horseshoe magnets made out of alnico are
$100s USD.  Much cheaper way is to assemble them out of thin alnico bars
with rectangular cross-section.  Another good way to simulate an
end-only-magnetized horseshoe magnet is by using soft steel horseshoe rod
with a NdFeB magnet on each end.

Cow magnets are cylindrical with rounded ends and are difficult to work
with.  The AlNiCo alloy is very brittle and prone to demagnetization (low
coercivity) and any cutting/machining tends to grossly disturb AlNiCo
magnetization.  I guess you could build a horseshoe magnet out of 3 cow
magnets and a lot of epoxy resin, but it wouldn be "nice".

Soft steel should be a quite an efficient substitute for iron.  As a matter
of fact pure iron is rather rare, in 1800s a carbon-iron steel was most
likely called iron although they were really talking about soft-steel.  The
usage of the adjective "soft" betrays this, since a pure iron would have
rather constant softness and the adjective "soft" would not be necessary.



At 08:40 PM 3/6/97 PST, you wrote:
>Hi Scott,
>
>I am also gathering materials to try to replicate the Gary Magnet Motor.
>
>The facts included in the article and some genealogical and geographical
>research I have done convince me that the article is true.  I believe
>Wesley Gary built
>the device but could not attract enough interest in it at the time
>because
>of the very low power levels.  It has many parallels to the ball and
>track
>machine that Greg Watson has been telling us (a little) about.
>
>I am very much encouraged to try these experiments now that Greg Watson
>has
>succeeded in making his ball and track contraption run.  We have to take
>his word
>for it, but I have been reading all of his posting and they have the ring
>of truth,
>especially since he says it is working on the same principle (apparently)
>as
>Gary's device. 
>
>I would very much like to keep a correspondence going with you as we
>progress.  We can be an encouragement to each other as well.
>
>  Please be patient with your experimenting and keep careful
>notes.   As Wesley Gary found out, it requires considerable patience to
>obtain a continuous motion.
>
>I am first trying to duplicate the beam balance version first since it
seems the simplest to understand.  I am making mine quite large so I can
>work with it easily.
>I found it easy to confirm the neutral point effects with small nail
>described in the article.  The "neutral point" seems to be were the soft
>iron has a net zero magnetization.  In other words, as many spins aligned
>in one direction as the other.
>There may even be an internal magnetic path established in the soft iron
>that create adjacent ustable regions of polorization (large domain
>boundaries).
>
>
>Have you seen a good source of large horseshoe magnets ?
>
>How about cow magnets ?  They are steel like Wesley Gay would have used
>and they are certainly cheap enough, about $1.50 each at local vet supply.
>
>What are you using for the soft iron ?
>
>Mostly what I have found seems to be steel.
>
>
>Tim
>( tv@juno.com )
>
>
>
>
>On Thu, 15 May 1997 20:42:24 -0700 (PDT) skot@compumedia.com (Scott
>Becker) writes:
>>
>>Last night I read the article and built the second model shown.
>>It worked as far as moving the metal away from the stationary magnet
>>to less than half way toward the pivoting one did make the pivoting
>>one go down. It barely works so I can't try to make it self running
>>without a better setup.
>>
>>What I think is happening as far as the neutral zone is concerned is
>>the iron is becoming saturated. When the metal is closer to the magnet
>>it is saturated so there is extra flux appearing at the ends.
>>
>>If this is true then the polarity at the ends of the metal is changing
>>but the flux direction through the middle is staying the same.
>>
>>In the article it says that the metal is sized according to the 
>>strength
>>of the magnet. Which indicates that it is becoming saturated.
>>
>>I think that the rotary version of his device should be buildable.
>>
>>I'm not at all sure if the generator version is OU but if all we have
>>to do is wind a coil with an under size core and move it in and out of
>>saturation then it should be quite easy to find out.
>>
>>
>>                                    Scott Becker
>>
>>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 17 16:27:48 1997
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From: Hawkeye <havveye@execpc.com>
To: "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Gary Motor
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 18:23:07 -0500
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Greg Watson, If you really want everyone to know about what you have =
done and you want people to duplicate your work, Then I would be happy =
to put the info in my newsletter I am making.

Everyone else, I still could use a basic discryption of Zero Point =
Energy. Also, If there is any free energy work you do that you want out =
in the open tell me and I will put it in the newsletter.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 17 20:08:07 1997
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------6386744D38
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Hawkeye wrote:
> 
> Greg Watson, If you really want everyone to know about what you have done and you want people to duplicate your work, Then I would be happy to put the info in my newsletter I am making.
> 
> Everyone else, I still could use a basic discryption of Zero Point Energy. Also, If there is any free energy work you do that you want out in the open tell me and I will put it in the newsletter.
Hawkeye wrote:
> 
> Greg Watson, If you really want everyone to know about what you have done and you want people to duplicate your work, Then I would be happy to put the info in my newsletter I am making.
> 
> Everyone else, I still could use a basic discryption of Zero Point Energy. Also, If there is any free energy work you do that you want out in the open tell me and I will put it in the newsletter.

Am attaching a paper by Puthoff that has a pretty good explanation
(I think) of the zpe.....hope this helps.....steve

--------------6386744D38
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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Quantum Vacuum Fluctuations: A New Rosetta Stone of Physics?

Dr. H. E. Puthoff
Institute for Advanced Studies
1301 Capital Of Texas Highway S., Suite B 121
Austin, Texas 78746
(512) 328-5751

In a recent article in the popular press (The Economist, January 7, 1989,
pp. 71-74) it was noted how many of this century's new technologies depend
on the Alice-in-Wonderland physics of quantum mechanics, with all of its
seeming absurdities. For starters, one begins with the observation that
classical physics tells us that atoms, which can be likened to a miniature
solar system with electron planets orbiting a nuclear sun, should not
exist. The circling electrons should radiate away their energy like
microscopic radio antennas and spiral into the nucleus. But atoms do exist,
and multitudinous other phenomena which don't obey the rules do occur. To
resolve this cognitive dissonance physicists introduced quantum mechanics,
which is essentially a set of mathematical rules to describe what in fact
does happen. But when we re-ask the question, "why didn't the electron
radiate away its energy?" the answer is, basically, "well, in quantum
theory it doesn't." It's at this point that not only the layman but some
physicists can begin to feel that someone's not playing fair. I say only
some physicists because the majority of working physicists are content
simply to use quantum rules that work, that describe (if only
statistically) what will happen in a given experiment under certain
conditions.

These are the so-called "logical positivists" who, in a philosophical
sense, are like the news reporter whose only interest is the bottom line.
There are nevertheless individuals here and there who still want to know
why the electron didn't radiate, why Einstein's equations are in this form
and not another, where does the ubiquitous zero- point energy that fills
even empty space come from, why quantum theory, and perhaps the biggest
question of all, how did the universe get started anyway? Surprisingly
enough, there may be answers to these seemingly unanswerable meta-level
questions. Perhaps even more surprising, they seem to be emerging, as a
recent book title put it, from "Something called Nothing" (1), or to put it
more correctly, from empty space, the vacuum, the void. To comprehend the
significance of this statement, we will have to take a detour into the
phenomenon of fluctuations with which quantum theory abounds, including the
fluctuations of empy space itself. Before the advent of quantum theory,
physics taught that any simple oscillator such as a pendulum, when excited,
would eventually come to rest if not continuously energized by some outside
force such as a spring. This is because of friction losses in the system.

After it was recognized that quantum theory was a more accurate
representation of nature, one of the findings of quantum theory was that
such an oscillator would in fact not come to total rest but rather would
continue to "jiggle" randomly about its resting point with a small amount
of energy always present, the so-called"zero-point energy." Although it may
not be observable to the eye on your grandfather clock because it is so
minute, it is nonetheless very real, and in many physical systems has
important consequences. One example is the presence of a certain amount of
"noise" in a microwave receiver that can never be gotten rid of, no matter
how perfect the technology. This is an example which shows that not only
physical devices such as pendulums have this property of incessant
fluctuation, but also fields, such as electromagnetic fields (radio waves,
microwaves, light, X-rays, etc.).

As it turns out, even though the zero-point energy in any particular mode
of an electromagnetic field is minute, there are so many possible modes of
propagation (frequencies, directions) in open space, the zero-point energy
summed up over all possible modes is quite enormous; in fact, greater than,
for example, nuclear energy densities. And this in all of so-called "empty"
space around us. Let us concentrate on the effects of such electromagnetic
zero-point fluctuations. With such large values, it might seem that the
effects of electromagnetic zero-point energy should be quite obvious, but
this is not the case because of its extremely uniform density. Just as a
vase standing in a room is not likely to fall over spontaneously, so a vase
bombarded uniformly on all sides by millions of ping pong balls would not
do likewise because of the balanced conditions of the uniform bombardment.
The only evidence of such a barrage might be minute jiggling of the vase,
and similar mechanisms are thought to be involved in the quantum jiggle of
zero-point motion.

However, there are certain conditions in which the uniformity of the
background electromagnetic zero-point energy is slightly disturbed and
leads to physical effects. One is the slight perturbation of the lines seen
from transitions between atomic states known as the Lamb Shift (2), named
after its discoverer, Willis Lamb. Another, also named for its discoverer,
is the Casimir Effect, a unique attractive quantum force between
closely-spaced metal plates. An elegant analysis by Milonni et. al. at Los
Angeles National Laboratory (3) shows the Casimir force to be due to
radiation pressure from the background electromagnetic zero-point energy
which has become unbalanced due to the presence of the plates, and which
results in the plates being pushed together. From this it would seem that
it might be possible to extract electrical energy from the vacuum, and
indeed the possibility of doing so (at least in principle) has been shown
in a paper of that same name by Robert Forward (4) at Hughes Research
Laboratories in Malibu, California.

What does this have to do with our basic questions? Let's start with the
question as top why the electron in a simple hydrogen atom doesn't radiate
as it circles the proton in its stable ground state atomic orbit. This
issue has been re-addressed in a recent paper by the author, this time
taking into account what has been learned over the years about the effects
of zero-point energy. (5) There it is shown that the electron can be seen
as continually radiating away its energy as predicted by classical theory,
but simultaneously absorbing a compensating amount of energy from the
ever-present sea of zero-point energy in which the atom is immersed, and an
assumed equilibrium between these two processes leads to the correct values
for the parameters known to define the ground-state orbit. Thus the
ground-state orbit is set by a dynamic equilibrium in which collapse of the
state is prevented by the presence of the zero-point energy. The
significance of this observation is that the very stability of matter
itself appears to depend on the presence of the underlying sea of
electromagnetic zero-point energy.

With regard to the gravitational attraction that is described so well by
Einstein's theory, its fundamental nature is still not well understood.
Whether addressed simply in terms of Newton's Law, or with the full rigor
of general relativity, gravitational theory is basically descriptive in
nature, without revealing the underlying dynamics for that description. As
a result, attempts to unify gravity with the other forces (electromagnetic,
strong and weak nuclear forces) or to develop a quantum theory of gravity
have foundered again and again on difficulties that can be traced back to a
lack of understanding at a fundamental level. To rectify these
difficulties, theorists by and large have resorted to ever-increasing
levels of mathematical sophistication and abstraction, as in the recent
development of supergravity and superstring theories. Taking a completely
different tack when addressing these difficulties in the sixties, the
well-known Russian physicist Andrei Sakharov put forward the somewhat
radical hypothesis that gravitation might not be a fundamental interaction
at all, but rather a secondary or residual effect associated with other
(non- gravitational) fields. (6)

Specifically, Sakharov suggested that gravity might be an induced effect
brought about by changes in the zero-point energy of the vacuum, due to the
presence of matter. If correct, gravity would then be understood as a
variation on the Casimir theme, in which background zero-point-energy
pressures were again responsible. Although Sakharov did not develop the
concept much further, he did outline certain criteria such a theory would
have to meet such as predicting the value of the gravitational constant G
in terms of zero-point-energy parameters. The approach to gravity outlined
by Sakharov has recently been addressed in detail, and with positive
reults, again by the author. (7) The gravitational interaction is shown to
begin with the fact that a particle situated in the sea of electromagnetic
zero-point fluctuations develops a "jitter" motion, or ZITTERBEWEGUNG as it
is called. When there are two or more particles they are each influenced
not only by the fluctuating background field, but also by the fields
generated by the other particles, all similarly undergoing ZITTERBEWEGUNG
motion, and the inter-particle coupling due to these fields results in the
attractive gravitational force.

Gravity can thus be understood as a kind of long-range Casimir force.
Because of its electromagnetic unerpinning, gravitational theory in this
form constitutes what is known in the literature as an "already-unified"
theory. The major benefit of the new approach is that it provides a basis
for understanding various characteristics of the gravitational interaction
hitherto unexplained. These include the relative weakness of the
gravitational force under ordinary circumstances (shown to be due to the
fact that the coupling constant G depends inversely on the large value of
the high-frequency cutoff of the zero-point-fluctuation spectrum); the
existence of positive but not negative mass (traceable to a positive-only
kinetic-energy basis for the mass parameter); and the fact that gravity
cannot be shielded (a consequence of the fact that quantum
zero-point-fluctuation "noise" in general cannot be shielded, a factor
which in other contexts sets a lower limit on the detectability of
electromagnetic signals).

As to where the ubiquitous electromagnetic zero-point energy comes from,
historically there have been two schools of thought: existence by fiat as
part of the boundary conditions of the universe, or generation by the
(quantum-fluctuation) motion of charged particles that constitute matter. A
straightforward calculation of the latter possibility has recently been
carried out by the author. (8) It was assumed that zero-point fields drive
particle motion, and that the sum of particle motions throughout the
universe in turn generate the zero-point fields, in the form of a
self-regenerating cosmological feedback cycle not unlike a cat chasing its
own tail. This self-constistent approach yielded the known zero-point field
distribution, thus indicating a dynamic-generation process for the
zero-point fields. Now as to the question of why quantum theory. Although
knowledge of zero-point fields emerged from quantum physics as that subject
matured, Professor Timothy Boyer at City College in New York took a
contrary view.

He bagan asking in the late sixties what would happen if we took classical
physics as it was and introduced a background of random, classical
fluctuating fields of the zero-point spectral distribution type. Could such
an all-classical model reproduce quantum theory in its entirety, and might
this possibility have been overlooked by the founders of quantum theory who
were not aware of the existence of such a fluctuating background field?
(First, it is clear from the previously-mentioned cosmological calculation
that such a field distribution would reproduce itself on a continuing
dynamic basis.) Boyer began by tackling the problems that led to the
introduction of quantum theory in the first place, such as the blackbody
radiation curve and the photoelectric effect. One by one the known quantum
results were reproduced by this upstart neoclassical approach, now
generally referred to as Stochastic Electrodynamics (SED) (9), as
contrasted to quantum electrodynamics (QED). Indeed, Milonni at Los Alamos
noted in a review of the Boyer work that had physicists in 1900 thought of
taking this route, they would probably have been more comfortable with this
classical approach than with Planck's hypothesis of the quantum, and one
can only speculate as to the direction that physics would have taken then.

The list of topics successfully analyzed within the SED formulation (i.e.,
yielding precise quantitative agreement with QED treatments) has now been
extended to include the harmonic oscillator, Casimir and Van der Waals
forces and the thermal effects of acceleration through the vacuum, to name
a few. Out of this work emerged the reasons for such phenomena as the
uncertainty principle, the incessant fluctuation of particle motion, the
existence of Van der Waals forces even at zero temperature, and so forth,
all shown to be due to the influence of the unceasing activity of the
random background fields. There are also some notable failures in SED, such
as transparent derivation of something as simple as Schrodinger's equation,
which turns out as yet to be an intractable problem. Therefore, it is
unlikely that quantum theory as we have come to know it and love it will be
entirely replaced by a refurbished classical theory in the near future.
Nonetheless, the successes to date of the SED approach, by its highlighting
of the role of background zero-point-fluctuations, means that when the
final chapter is written on quantum theory, field fluctuations in empty
space will be accorded an honored position.

And now to the preeminent question of all, where did the Universe come
from? Or, in modern terminology, what started the Big Bang? Could quantum
fluctuations of empty space have something to do with this also? Well,
Prof. Edward Tryon of Hunter College of the City University of New York
thought so when he proposed in 1973 that our Universe may have originated
as a fluctuation of the vacuum on a large scale, as "simply one of those
things which happen from time to time." (10) This idea was later refined
and updated within the context of inflationary cosmology by Alexander
Vilenkin of Tufts University, who proposed that the universe is created by
quantum tunneling from literally nothing into the something we call our
universe. (11) Although highly speculative, these types of models indicate
once again that physicists find themselves turning again and again to the
Void (and the fluctuations thereof) for their answers.

Those with a practical bent of mind may be left with yet one more
unanswered question. Can this emerging Rosetta Stone of physics be used to
translate such lofty insights into mundane application? Could the engineer
of the future specialize in "vacuum engineering?" Could the energy crisis
be solved by harnessing the energies of the zero-point sea? After all,
since the basic zero-point energy form is highly random in nature, and
tending towards self-cancellation, if a way could be found to bring order
out of chaos, the, because of the highly energetic nature of the vacuum
fluctuations, relatively large effects could in principle be produced.
Given our relative ignorance at this point, we must fall back on a quote
given by Podolny (12) when contemplating this same issue.

     "It would be just as presumptuous to deny the feasibility of
     useful application as it would be irresponsible to guarantee such
     application." Only the future can reveal the ultimate use to
     which Mankind will put this remaining Fire of the Gods, the
     quantum fluctuations of empty space.

REFERENCES

  1. R. Podolny, "Something Called Nothing" (Mir Publ., Moscow,1986)
  2. W. E. Lamb, Jr., and R. C. Retherford, "Fine Structure of the Hydrogen
     Atom by a Microwave Method," Phys. Rev. 72, 241 (1947)
  3. P. W. Milonni, R. J. Cook and M. E. Goggin, "Radiation Pressure from
     the Vacuum : Physical Interpretation of the Casimir Force," Phys. Rev.
     A 38, 1621 (1988)
  4. R. L. Forward, "Extracting Electrical Energy from the Vacuum by
     Cohesion of Charged Foliated Conductors," Phys. Rev. B 30, 1700 (1984)
  5. H. E. Puthoff, "Ground State of Hydrogen as a Zero-Point
     Fluctuation-Determined State," Phys. Rev. D 35, 3266 (1987) See also
     science news article, "Why Atoms Don't Collapse," in New Scientist, p.
     26 (9 July 1987)
  6. A. D. Sakharov, "Vacuum Quantum Fluctuations in Curved Space and the
     Theory of Gravitation, Dokl. Akad. Nauk. SSSR (Sov. Phys. - Dokl. 12,
     1040 (1968). See also discussion in C. W. Misner, K. S. Thorne and J.
     A. Wheeler, Gravitation (Freeman, San Francisco,1973), p. 426
  7. H. E. Puthoff, "Gravity as a Zero-Point Fluctuation Force," Phys. Rev.
     A 39, 2333 (1989)
  8. H. E. Puthoff, "Source of Vacuum Electromagnetic Zero-Point Energy,"
     subm. to Phys. Rev. A, (March 1989)
  9. See review of SED by T. H. Boyer, "A Brief Survey of Stochastic
     Electrodynamics," in Foundations of Radiation Theory and Quantum
     Electrodynamics, edited by A. O. Barut (Plenum, New York, 1980) See
     also the very readable account "The Classical Vacuum," in Scientific
     American, p. 70 (August 1985)
 10. E. P. Tryon, "Is the Universe a Vacuum Fluctuation?" Nature 246, 396
     (1973)
 11. A. Vilenkin, "Creation of Universes from Nothing," Phys. Lett. 117B,
     25 (1982)
 12. R. Podolny, Ref. 1, p. 211

from http://www.clas.ufl.edu/anthro/ZPE.html

--------------6386744D38--



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 17 20:09:05 1997
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Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 20:08:56 -0700
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 20:08:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, neotech@xbn.shore.net,
        freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: The "Watson Effect" by the Numbers
In-Reply-To: <337CE92D.3449@microtronics.com.au>
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On Sat, 17 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> I have just finished the first version of my OU toy.
> 
> It is a closed loop system.

Just to clarify: you mean you just finished building it and you hope it
will work?  Or do you mean that you've just managed to create another
*working* closed-loop device, one which is based some other patent?!

If the latter, then this is more astounding news!

.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623
EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/
Seattle, WA 98117  billb@eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 17 20:44:51 1997
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Greg,

Before you have everyone follow you in a replication attempt, IMO it is very
important for you to build a second one yourself, using completely new parts
to build the second (different magnets, ball, etc.).  There is always that
chance that in your first version you just stumbled serendipitously on
magnets, balls etc. that just happened to have some special flaws or whatever
that turn out to be key, unknown even to you.  I know I'll feel better when
you say that you yourself have had success with a completely independent
replica.  (This concern was brought to my attention by my son, Brendan, an
engineering student, who is also going to follow your recipe.)

Hal Puthoff 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 17 22:32:32 1997
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 22:32:12 -0700
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u?
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Looks like you're stirring them up :)

>John Logajan wrote:
>> William Beaty worte:
>> > "Round one" must be awarded to the o/u supporters.  Refusing to do
>> > this would be a form of cheating, of Goalpost Moving.
>> 
>> If I CLAIM I can knock out Mike Tyson, am I awarded the first round?
>
>I don't understand.  Do you mean that Greg is probably lying about having
>achived closed-loop operation?  I see him as claiming that he DID knock
>out Mike Tyson, a different thing entirely.
>
>If Greg Watson is lying than it can be for several reasons:
>
>1. To extort money from investors
>2. To gain attention and feed his ego
>3. To avoid admitting that he was unsuccesful in "closing the loop "
>4. To mislead/discourage us on vortex-l or freenrg-l for debunking purposes
>5. To mislead/discourage us on vortex-l or freenrg-l for distraction
>purposes (ie. the TED device)
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 17 23:24:34 1997
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Message-ID: <01BC6318.07AF86C0@ristra.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: o/u ramp is not o/u?
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:14:10 -0700
Encoding: 40 TEXT, 57 UUENCODE
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Saturday, May 17, 1997 10:32 PM Epitaxy wrote:

>Looks like you're stirring them up :)

>>John Logajan wrote:
>>> William Beaty worte:
>>> > "Round one" must be awarded to the o/u supporters.  Refusing to do
>>> > this would be a form of cheating, of Goalpost Moving.
>>>
>>> If I CLAIM I can knock out Mike Tyson, am I awarded the first round?
>>
>>I don't understand.  Do you mean that Greg is probably lying about having
>>achived closed-loop operation?  I see him as claiming that he DID knock
>>out Mike Tyson, a different thing entirely.
>>
>>If Greg Watson is lying than it can be for several reasons:
>>
>>1. To extort money from investors
>>2. To gain attention and feed his ego
>>3. To avoid admitting that he was unsuccesful in "closing the loop "
>>4. To mislead/discourage us on vortex-l or freenrg-l for debunking 
purposes
>>5. To mislead/discourage us on vortex-l or freenrg-l for distraction
>>purposes (ie. the TED device)

(BTW, where'd this last come from? I didn't receive that post)

and etcetera...

Good grief, gang, where's the substance in this thread? The recent wave of 
humor had more technical basis.  What's been spewing lately sounds like 
Frederick's Hot F.A.R.T. unit got loose and sprung a leak! With all due 
respect (and I truly do have a *great* deal of respect for most of the 
participants here), how about putting a cork in it until Greg posts his 
instructions? Then you can build the thing or not. If nobody can get it to 
work, *then* start the critique.

Your sometimes-humble uncredentialed amateur,

Dan Quickert

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end

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 18 07:51:04 1997
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:54:23 +1200
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Paul Callender <klicco@es.co.nz>
Subject: OU Ramp
Resent-Message-ID: <"qM3q02.0.5Z6.rSnVp"@mx1>
Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Hi,
This is about the second time I have popped my head in this conference in
the last 6 months but I have been quietly reading and experimenting with
ideas tossed around here.

Firstly I must say congratulations to Greg Watson. I have been impressed
with the way he is handling the distribution of instructions on his device
and am eagerly anticipating his instructions on building it. I'll be
watching from across the Tasman in NZ.

What I want to know is if I have overunity in this situation. I take a ramp
of small incline upwards with magnets alongside it (like the patent
referred to in Greg's info earlier,  patent 4,215,330) and place a
stationery steel ball at the bottom. Then I allow it to roll up it,when at
the end it drops suddenly (say a cm or two) at the end onto a downward
sloping ramp without magnets, thereby converting the gravity potential into
kinetic. Is the gravity cancelling the magnetic draw-back effect causing
overunity? Or does the magnetic potential and gravational potential cancel
out any chance of OU? I have a feeling this may be similar to the Bedini
magnetic gate, looks like OU but it aint.

Thanks,
...................

Paul Callender
Email: klicco@es.co.nz
Christchurch 5, New Zealand


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 18 11:15:42 1997
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Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 11:15:35 -0700 (PDT)
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: "Ken G. Brown" <kbrown@tnc.com>
Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u?
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By chance came across this patent info at
<http://www2.bootstrap.org/dce-patents.htm>

11/14/61 3,009,136 Flux-Doubling In Magnetic Cores 1K

Inventors - David R. Bennion, Douglas C. Engelbart & E. K. Van De Riet
1K1

There are a few more related patents listed there as well. Am passing it
along in case it might be helpful.

Ken


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Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 12:23:35 -0700
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: "Ken G. Brown" <kbrown@tnc.com>
Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u?
Resent-Message-ID: <"xtReq.0.3i1.CaqVp"@mx2>
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By chance came across this patent info at
<http://www2.bootstrap.org/dce-patents.htm>

11/14/61 3,009,136 Flux-Doubling In Magnetic Cores 1K

Inventors - David R. Bennion, Douglas C. Engelbart & E. K. Van De Riet
1K1

There are a few more related patents listed there as well. Am passing it
along in case it might be helpful.

Ken


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 18 13:38:41 1997
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From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705182027.QAA28498@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: AI
To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com (science)
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 16:27:11 -0400 (EDT)
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I just read a great book on AI.  The problem is, it was written around
1985.  Can anyone recommend some newer reasources on AI?  Does anyone
know Lisp?
Andrew -- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 18 16:49:10 1997
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Message-ID: <01BC63BA.8BEC0920@pallas.mdm.mke.execpc.com>
From: Hawkeye <havveye@execpc.com>
To: science <freenrg-L@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: AI
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:36:31 -0500
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Try these!!!!
AI and Robotics
from my AI and Robotics folder.

http://ai.iit.nrc.ca/ai_point.html
http://www.cs.ucl.ac.uk/misc/ai/
http://robotics.jpl.nasa.gov/people/welch/other-robotics.html
http://piglet.cs.umass.edu:4321/robotics.html/
http://198.110.216.210/

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 18 18:56:33 1997
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:30:38 +1000
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Geoff Egel <egel@main.murray.net.au>
Subject: RE: o/u ramp is not o/u?
Resent-Message-ID: <"76VfM.0.nk.lCxVp"@mx1>
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At 11:14 PM 5/17/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Saturday, May 17, 1997 10:32 PM Epitaxy wrote:
>
>>Looks like you're stirring them up :)
>
>>>John Logajan wrote:
>>>> William Beaty worte:
>>>> > "Round one" must be awarded to the o/u supporters.  Refusing to do
>>>> > this would be a form of cheating, of Goalpost Moving.
>>>>
>>>> If I CLAIM I can knock out Mike Tyson, am I awarded the first round?
>>>
>>>I don't understand.  Do you mean that Greg is probably lying about having
>>>achived closed-loop operation?  I see him as claiming that he DID knock
>>>out Mike Tyson, a different thing entirely.
>>>
>>>If Greg Watson is lying than it can be for several reasons:
>>>
>>>1. To extort money from investors
>>>2. To gain attention and feed his ego
>>>3. To avoid admitting that he was unsuccesful in "closing the loop "
>>>4. To mislead/discourage us on vortex-l or freenrg-l for debunking 
>purposes
>>>5. To mislead/discourage us on vortex-l or freenrg-l for distraction
>>>purposes (ie. the TED device)
>
>(BTW, where'd this last come from? I didn't receive that post)
>
>and etcetera...
>
>Good grief, gang, where's the substance in this thread? The recent wave of 
>humor had more technical basis.  What's been spewing lately sounds like 
>Frederick's Hot F.A.R.T. unit got loose and sprung a leak! With all due 
>respect (and I truly do have a *great* deal of respect for most of the 
>participants here), how about putting a cork in it until Greg posts his 
>instructions? Then you can build the thing or not. If nobody can get it to 
>work, *then* start the critique.
>
>Your sometimes-humble uncredentialed amateur,
>
>Dan Quickert
>
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>'-/TW```G3&.\
>`
>end
>
>how can I decode this above
Geoff
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 18 19:31:56 1997
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Message-Id: <337F82EE.4009@mail.halcyon.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 15:30:06 -0700
From: "Fred B. Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>
Organization: Pegasus Products
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Fred gets new computer
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Hi all my friends out in e-mail land!

   I will be out of commission for a couple of days because I got a new
computer and all sorts of things need to be done. Will talk to you next
week with full multimedia :-)
                                      Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 18 22:22:46 1997
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Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:21:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u? (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970518222144.4097E-100000@eskimo.com>
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message below

.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623
EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/
Seattle, WA 98117  billb@eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 11:15:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Ken G. Brown" <kbrown@tnc.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: o/u ramp is not o/u?

By chance came across this patent info at
<http://www2.bootstrap.org/dce-patents.htm>

11/14/61 3,009,136 Flux-Doubling In Magnetic Cores 1K

Inventors - David R. Bennion, Douglas C. Engelbart & E. K. Van De Riet
1K1

There are a few more related patents listed there as well. Am passing it
along in case it might be helpful.

Ken


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 18 22:32:04 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA05378; Sun, 18 May 1997 22:31:43 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:31:43 -0700
Message-ID: <01BC63DB.54C18E90@ristra.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: "'egel@main.murray.net.au'" <egel@main.murray.net.au>
Subject: RE: MIME appendages
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:32:10 -0700
Encoding: 21 TEXT, 52 UUENCODE
X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00
Resent-Message-ID: <"ToD3i3.0.xJ1.-M-Vp"@mx1>
Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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I've been getting complaints again about a bunch of garbage attached at the 
end of my posts. Explained it once before, and thought I had it fixed, but 
one more time...

It's MIME-encoded Microsoft Mail garbage - allows it to send other 
Microsoft mail clients formatting information. Unfortunately I have no 
indications here when the stuff is being put out or not - I can't see it. 
There's a way to turn it off, but that apparently doesn't always work and 
when it does, it doesn't stick. It's frustrating as hell.

I'll be upgrading the mail client soon, hopefully that will take care of 
it. Meanwhile I'll be sure to toggle the feature on/off each time before 
sending any posts; that should help. If I can't get it resolved in a 
reasonable time I may use a different mail program to post to the list.

Sorry for the inconvenience,

Dan

<any characters after this line are unintentional and appear against my 
will>

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M:&5LT0,@1&QG`H!]"H (S\4)V3L7GS(U-0* "H&##;$+8&YG,3 S%" '"PH4
M(@'0($DG=F6D(&()X2!G$@!T"X!49R %H&T+4W0$(&&N9PMQ'@`&X'4%0&$<
M@,1U;A&P(&]F'- *P'9B'A <<&$"0 #0%B!DZ1_Q('06(" )\"!P'U% ;7D@
M<&]S'> NV"!%> M3(&%I!4 "(.YC''("$!>@+!X`(1$@P,D(8&=H!4!)(!' 
M(I/X9FEX"8 CD![P(L(<<.\$8!>@(+ '<2XF@ J%"H4(270G#]%)344MSPGP
M!: -L"!P36D%`"&PNQ]0!4!-"W #(!^&+1X`&19 ;W<$("*Q=&\@?Q'P(1(@
MP07!*,<`P ,18_YL") =TB-1`, =! N +336:0(@(?!5+?)T'P`@`&\6,"& 
M)'(<86XJ\ N 9-\HP"Y#!" K@1QP=Q8@`Z#[(,(AP'4-T"*@!" <D!TB_G E
M@B6"!< P``5 *B D</DP<&XG!4 1\!QP(K A\,Y4,/(GL1[0=V$A@"KA?R\`
M!*$BL@W0)50@P""18<YP"K$LX2]A9&\'D#02UP= -7$$('<%L&LCHS%#/R*Q
M-_(CD#G%-!,=$&-KUR'P)Y,#4'4AP'(N01TQ;F$PTA9 )JXG%D$<D"#\=7 )
MP"2@'2(@PBQI*P"N;P(@(Y D`' -P'460-\UD3<"`_ 600&0:QQP,'#G)A$?
M4322364`<#% `Q ['' ]YG,(<"8A-<%O9W9G0R$@PF9"P#7A0B%N_B\V82#P
M(#$F,R,E*P,\0ZIN(84[-N1S) %L('#]%B%P.U$?8#/6'.$BHA>@_2D`;!Q@
M(I$>44IA/( "(/\!H$221E(D< # (8 [X!_AWS?@!I!%`#>"+%1P`V ^@?YM
M*M(AHC6C(-$LP"' )JWZ4P6P<B& (U$@LPN !:"^;AQ@`P`H,2. )KQ$`'#]
M)KP\1X(1L@#0+T 1X!X`_P& *Y$@P#(Q+, EP4("'P#_'<$LX2YA!T CHS=!
M0L %P.\>$T[1(7%!4CX;7!<``$"_)Q8*^Q+R'!%:51;!`%RP`````P`0$ ``
M```#`!$0`0```$ `!S"0<K5<%&2\`4 `"#"0<K5<%&2\`1X`/0`!````!0``
3`%)%.B ``````P`--/TW``!1:F2\
`
end

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 19 03:50:56 1997
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Message-ID: <33803035.542B@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:19:25 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OU Ramp
References: <l03010d01afa56b0c7d9f@[207.214.13.176]>
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Paul Callender wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> This is about the second time I have popped my head in this conference in
> the last 6 months but I have been quietly reading and experimenting with
> ideas tossed around here.
> 
> Firstly I must say congratulations to Greg Watson. I have been impressed
> with the way he is handling the distribution of instructions on his device
> and am eagerly anticipating his instructions on building it. I'll be
> watching from across the Tasman in NZ.
> 
> What I want to know is if I have overunity in this situation. I take a ramp
> of small incline upwards with magnets alongside it (like the patent
> referred to in Greg's info earlier,  patent 4,215,330) and place a
> stationery steel ball at the bottom. Then I allow it to roll up it,when at
> the end it drops suddenly (say a cm or two) at the end onto a downward
> sloping ramp without magnets, thereby converting the gravity potential into
> kinetic. Is the gravity cancelling the magnetic draw-back effect causing
> overunity? Or does the magnetic potential and gravational potential cancel
> out any chance of OU? I have a feeling this may be similar to the Bedini
> magnetic gate, looks like OU but it aint.
> 
> Thanks,
> ...................
> 
> Paul Callender

Hi Paul,

Assuming the ball has NO starting energy, then :

1) If the ball, on exit, drops lower than the starting height then it is
not OU.

2) If the ball, on exit, drops to the starting level, but doesn't roll
away (still on the starting level), then it is not OU.

3) if the ball, on exit, drops to the starting level and rolls away
(still on the starting level) then its is OU.

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 19 07:10:54 1997
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Date: 19 May 1997 09:47 EDT
Sender: "Gene Batten" <mdleb@nortel.ca>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: "Gene Batten" <mdleb@nortel.ca>
Subject: re:The "Watson Effect" by the Numbers
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Great idea Greg. Thanks for sharing your work. I agree with others that
this is the best way to proceed. 

Please consider posting pictures and/or drawings on a web page somewhere 
if possible.  A few pictures can really help achieve understanding of
your design. Pictures and drawings attached to e-mail postings to freenrg-l
may work for some people, but there will be some who will have trouble 
viewing the images because of format problems, etc. 

Even with professionally written instructions and drawings, many people
have difficulty understanding and assembling even simple devices such as 
 Christmas toys, etc. Hopefully, members of freenrg-l are "above
average"  in this regard and will be able to follow your instructions
well enough to successfully  duplicate your device. I expect much
discussion about the construction details of your device.  

I look forward to your postings.

Regards,
Gene Batten
mdleb@nortel.ca

In message "The "Watson Effect" by the Numbers", you write:

> Hi All,
> 
> I have just finished the first version of my OU toy.
> 
> It is a closed loop system.
> 
> Over the next several weeks, I will release a series of "How to
> Duplicate" posts.
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 19 09:04:55 1997
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:04:09 -0400
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Larry Wharton <wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Simple OU Device
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Greetings freenrg subscribers.
 I haven't posted much here but since Greg Watson is going to place his
"Watson Effect" by the numbers here, I will put this here.  As I understand
it, theory is discouraged on freenergy in lieu of experimental results.  I
think that is a good thing as most theories introduced in a forum like this
are worthless and a total waist of time, whereas experimental results are
always of great value.  The theory given here is simply the accepted form
that could be taken out of any standard text on E&M.  I am not introducing
a new theory here but simply suggesting that existing theory may be applied
to Greg's device to produce ou.

In a message dated 5/17/97 8:04:23 AM, Greg wrote:

<I am still very worried about where the energy is coming from and what
<we will have to "Pay the Ferryman" to use it.

As I indicated in a previous post the energy most likely is coming from
heat energy in the permanent magnets.  The standard conservation of energy
equation for the electromagnetic field in the presence of magnetic
materials contains a significant source term which for most cases interacts
with the thermal energy content of the magnetic material.  This source
term, S, is given by:

 S = 1/4Pi ( H dot dB/dt - B dot dH/dT )

By using

 B = 4Pi M + H

with M the magnetization, the source term is

 S = H dot dM/dt                                               (1)

In this form the source term is analogous to the thermodynamic relation

 dE = P dV

with E the energy, P the pressure, and V the volume.  So the thermodynamic
equivalence is

 P = H   and  V = M

If one does this substitution into the standard equations for the second
law of thermodynamics a set of constraints on H and M is obtained.  I have
looked at a wide selection of simple electromagnetic cycles and found that
these constraining equations are always correct and that the second law is
not violated.
  There is a more complex electromagnetic cycle where this analysis does
not work out.  This is the case of the Tesla motor (imagined by Joe Newman
to be his invention). Here, evaluation of the source term (1) around a
closed cycle is not zero and the excess cannot be attributed to heat
exchange in accord with the second law.  The same result could hold for
Greg's device, but not knowing the actual configuration I cannot evaluate
the energy source term.

Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 19 09:43:07 1997
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:45:02 -0600
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Subject: Correction
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snip----
This is the case of the the Tesla motor (imagined by Joe Newman to be his
invention).
snip----
>Lawrence E. Wharton
>NASA/GSFC code 913
>Greenbelt MD 20771
>(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov

Dear Mr. Wharton,

A correction to your above statement:  Joseph Newman does not claim nor
"imagine" the Tesla motor to be his invention.

Evan Soule'
Director of Information
NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS
josephnewman@earthlink.net
(504) 524-3063
P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684
Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087
          http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html



"I cannot conceive curved lines of force without the conditions of a
physical existence in that intermediate space."  --- MICHAEL FARADAY




From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 19 10:26:03 1997
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From: HLafonte@aol.com
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:10:32 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970519131031_1854912561@emout14.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Muller motor
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Would anyone care to comment on the work of a Mr. Muller (overunity electric
motor & generator) I just found his site on the web and wanted  to hear what
others think about his claims.
Thanks, Butch LaFonte

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 19 12:57:39 1997
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Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:03:23 -0700
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Organization: Pegasus Products
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test message

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 19 15:24:03 1997
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From: geoff@compcafe.co.uk (Geoff Greaves)
Reply-To: geoff@compcafe.co.uk
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Muller motor
Date: 19 May 1997 22:26:06 GMT
Message-Id: <11784093.83238588@compcafe.co.uk>
Organization: via Computer Cafes FC BBS Wales, UK
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HLafonte@aol.com writes:
Would anyone care to comment on the work of a Mr. Muller (overunity electric
motor & generator) I just found his site on the web and wanted  to hear what
others think about his claims.
Thanks, Butch LaFonte

Making comments is not what I do as I'm just an inventive chap with nothing
to sell, but if you send me some money I'll let you have a licence for
limited use of my method for making comments that you can try to write your
own with.

Actually I thought there was a careful avoidance of making any claims other
than being only interested in dealing with large (rich?) companies.

Sorry, must be the residual toothache. I'll swallow an anti-cynicism capsule
along with the anti-biotics!

----------------------------------------
>From Geoff Greaves: geoff@compcafe.co.uk
----------------------------------------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 19 16:01:06 1997
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Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 01:03:21 +0200
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From: harti@bbtt.de (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: Permanent Magnet motors are possible ! New theory article available !
Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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A brand new article about permanent magnet motors by W.D. Bauer is on my
server at 

http://www.overunity.de/magmotor/magmotor.htm

It describes conditions under which the conservation laws of energy and 
angular momentum can be violated and be used for new energy production.
 
The practical applications of this are perpetual motion machines.
 
Some version proposed by e.g. Ecklin or Gary and their variations are discussed.
--
Hartmann Multimedia Service
Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
http://www.harti.com    Webmaster of:
www.detours.de    www.overunity.de   www.berlin-city.com
email: harti@harti.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 19 21:07:46 1997
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Message-Id: <338122A7.6913@centuryinter.net>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:03:51 -0500
From: andrew <gyro@centuryinter.net>
Reply-To: gyro@centuryinter.net
Organization: the truth is out there 
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Subject: Hopper Coil
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does anyone have any information on the Hopper Coil ?

here's a link telling a little bit about it 
http://www.world-famous.com/DonKellyStuff/*KellyAntiGra.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 19 22:18:32 1997
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From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Muller motor
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Geoff -

   >  I'll swallow an anti-cynicism capsule...

WHOAH! Don't swallow that capsule yet - it might stunt your sense of humor!
You were doing so well.  :)

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 19 22:28:02 1997
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Simple OU Device
Resent-Message-ID: <"S-omz.0.gB6.DCJWp"@mx2>
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Larry Wharton wrote:

   >  This is the case of the Tesla motor (imagined
   >  by Joe Newman to be his invention).

Could you be more specific about which Tesla motor you're refering to? He
patented quite a few motors of various types, and some of them were
homopolar. Was it one of those? I think one tended to use the magnetism
from eddy currents in the conductive disc in some regenerative way.

Thanks for posting your notes too, I think they might prove to be useful in
the eventual understanding of the process by which Greg's gizmo works.
Thermodynamics seems like a good place to look for the source of the
energy.

If it's organizing random heat into useable magnetic energy though, isn't
that an apparent 2nd law violation, or do you think it will turn out to be
just a sort of tricky heat pump after all?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 03:43:15 1997
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Message-ID: <33803B57.6408@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:06:55 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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Hi All,

I have finished the drawings and instructions for the phase 1 device.

I designed it to be very simple to build (only a ruler, hacksaw, file,
balse knife and superglue) and to use very easy to find material (3mm
sheet balsa, 12mm alum "U" channel, 3x10mm steel bar, small ceramic
fridge type magnets (4.5x10x13mm), 4 x straight pins and a 12mm steel
ball).  The design is based on the "KISS" principal.  Cost is around $20
or Aust ($15 US).

The phase 1 device is a single class two ramp (ball climbs ramp, exits
and drops to original level) with a 250mm ramp and a 25mm lift.  It is
based on one of my working ramp, only simpler.

The building of ramps and the mastering of the magnet adjustments are
very necessary for success in the following 3 phases.

To double check, I decided to follow my own instructions and build a
unit "strictly" from the instructions.

Well, it simple to build and looks great but, after four hours of
playing, checking, fiddlying and then getting mad, I can't get the ball
to fully climb the ramp!

I suspect I have built up the side magnet assys incorrectly or some of
my "NEW" magnets are soft.

I will still try for Tuesday, but I may be a little late.  I want the
design to be 100% solid.

PS,  I will post to both Freenrg-l and Vortex-l due to many requests. 
Thanks for the support guys.

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 04:14:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA16947; Tue, 20 May 1997 04:13:45 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 04:13:45 -0700
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:13:42 +0200 (METDST)
Message-Id: <199705201113.NAA15785@imaginet.fr>
X-Sender: lentin@mail2.imaginet.fr
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Jean-Pierre Lentin <lentin@imaginet.fr>
Subject: Nazi Usenet Hoax
Resent-Message-ID: <"8PYir.0.i84.eTOWp"@mx1>
Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Hi all !

Well, seems the old "New Nazi Usenet Group" hoax made a brief appearance on
this list recently. It  also resurfaced in France a few weeks ago. Actually
it's not originally a hoax, unlike the "Good Times virus" scare mails, but
it breeds the same way. Mailing lists are of course a good ecological niche
for those critters, except there they meet two potent predators. One is The
Guy Who Bothers To Check With The  Supposed Originator - thanks J.F. Schenk
here. The other predator is The Guy Who Has Read The Straight Dope From A
Computer Journal - that's me today. The original affair dates from 1994. The
Nazi group was efficiently vetoed, with hundreds of "no" and only 23 "yes".
Since then no other attempt was made, at least under that name. But the
mails keep reappearing, in a characteristic non-linear chaotic way. I'm sure
we'll meet them again some day...

Cheers
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jean-Pierre Lentin
lentin@imaginet.fr

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 07:50:12 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA14238; Tue, 20 May 1997 07:49:30 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:49:30 -0700
Message-ID: <338184F9.D0D00C98@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:33:21 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: List Server Freenrg <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>,
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Subject: Simple OU Toy
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Hi All,

Just a few answers :

1) The Simple OU Toy is not my rotary device.  Same leg action,
different dog.

2) It is a closed loop version of the patent 4,215,330, with
improvements.

3) There will be 4 phases of construction :

 Phase 1, Single straignt mag ramp.

 Phase 2, Multiple linked straight mag ramps.

 Phase 3, Single curved ramp.  (Yes, the secret is sort of out.  Don't
curve the
                                connecting track, curve the ramp!)

 Phase 4, Multiple linked curved ramp (in a circle if you must).

           Yes, the little ball rolls around and around, while stayng on
the "Neutral
           Line".

           No, you can't just wait for the final installment to build
one as certain
           skills must be mastered along the way to get the thing
working.

 Construction cost per ramp is around $20 Aust ($15 US).

4) I am trying to arrange a US and European web page to host the
construction details along with actual pictures (still and moving) of
the working devices. 

-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 07:52:28 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id HAA14865; Tue, 20 May 1997 07:51:45 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:51:45 -0700
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Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 06:49:07 -0800
To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Simple Ou Toy
Resent-Message-ID: <"YdSWe1.0.4e3.0gRWp"@mx1>
Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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At 9:06 PM 5/19/97, Greg Watson wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>I have finished the drawings and instructions for the phase 1 device.
>
>I designed it to be very simple to build (only a ruler, hacksaw, file,
>balse knife and superglue) and to use very easy to find material (3mm
>sheet balsa, 12mm alum "U" channel, 3x10mm steel bar, small ceramic
>fridge type magnets (4.5x10x13mm), 4 x straight pins and a 12mm steel
>ball).  The design is based on the "KISS" principal.  Cost is around $20
>or Aust ($15 US).
>[snip]
>--
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

Greg,

This is terrific!  I am especially impressed with the small size, which is
very handy.

Would you consider putting together kits?  Add 100% profit or more and
charge mailing.  It would be well worth it to be working with the same
kinds of parts as most everyone else, and not to have to go looking for
parts.

I just wrote:

"Now, if we could get an estimate from Greg of an elevation and resulting
rolling distance, we have a basis for determining the rolling friction.  It
is then a question of how many balls move at what speed in the looping
device to be tested.

The dimensions of 5 cm by 15 cm were given, but it would be useful to know
the third dimension, including rise.

I forgot to mention that we also need the weight of the ball(s)."

If the ball size is exactly 12mm , then we don't need the weight, it can be
calculated.

Here's tha calorimeter data again:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - -- - - - - - - -
I just did a quick check on a large wide mouth Dewar flask (about 4.5
liter) made of thick glass to get a worst case feel for sensitivity (much
worse than with the much smaller food jar pairs and fine wire leads, high
impedence thermistors.)   I didn't use a second opposing flask, only the
polypropylene top that came with the flask. I set the flask upside down
with thermister leads and calibration resistor leads going through the LN2
vent holes in the side of the lid, which were not sealed.  The lid, with
attached upside down flask, was set on top of a large block of polyurethane
packing foam.  No outside temperature controlled environment was provided.
Temperature outside the flask was measured at 3 points and averaged, and
the temperature inside the flask was measured at the top and bottom of the
flask, and averaged.   A large but stable temperature gradient developed
inside the flask.  An outside enclosure and inside fan are needed for best
results.

The 5 probe Cole-Parmer thermistor thermometer (H-08502-12) and probes
(08430-00) used are certified traceable to NIST standards and have a rated
accuracy  of 0.2 deg. C or 0.36 deg. F absolute and 0.01 C or 0.01 F
relative.

A 1.2 K resistor (measured at 1.199 K) was used for calibration.  Only one
calibration point was run due to the long time constant for the device
(about 60 min.)  The run took 5 hours to reach equilibrium. The supply
voltage was measured at 10.07 V.  The current was 8.4 mA, giving total
power of 0.0846 W.  This gives a calibration constant of 49.2 mW/deg. C, or
38.26 mW/deg. F.  A limit to yes/no resolution is thus about 1 mW.  I
should mention that when the power was put on the resistor that it was
apparent in the top thermistor readings within seconds.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - -- - - - - - - -

A sample calculation with roughly estimated data:

Now, using 6mm as a ball radius, that's a volume of 4/3 Pi r^3 = 1.5 cm^3.
Using the density of iron, that gives a ball weight of (7.86 g/cm^3)(1.5
cm^3) = 11.8 g.  Let's assume a drop of 1 cm results in a total rollout
distance of 1m in about 5 seconds.

Assuming a very short dropping ramp and ignoring rotational energy the
initial rollout speed is V = (2 g h)^0.5 = ((2)(9.8 m/sec^2)(0.01 m))^0.5 =
0.44 m/sec.
This gives a kinetic energy Ek = 0.5 m v^2 = (0.5)(0.0118 kg)(01.96 m^2
s^-2) = 1.156x10^-3 kg m/s^2.

Assuming a rollout distance of 1 m we have friction energy loss of
1.156x10^-3 J/m. Assuming the ball in the device averages a speed of 0.2
m/s we have a power output of only 2.31x10^-4 J/s = 0.231 mW.

This is almost measurable using the crude techniques above.  A little
refinement in technique and insulation, and the use of some high impedence
thermistors (a few dollars each) in a temperature differential bridge
should provide an adequate test to determine something about the source of
energy.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 08:43:02 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id IAA28401; Tue, 20 May 1997 08:35:57 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:35:57 -0700
From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705201535.LAA11260@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: Parts
To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com (science)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:35:47 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
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X-Status: 

Any ideas what I can do with a 9 volt, 60 ma solar panel (I have 2)?  What
about a 1 rpm gear motor?  Also, can anyone tell me how to configure a
photo flash transformer?  Can I get high voltages out of it?
Andrew -- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 11:05:28 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA28063; Tue, 20 May 1997 11:04:42 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:04:42 -0700
Message-Id: <3381B111.1F38@mail.halcyon.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 07:14:08 -0700
From: "Fred B. Epps" <fepps@halcyon.com>
Organization: Pegasus Products
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I)
Mime-Version: 1.0
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Dispute: a means or an end?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Resent-Message-ID: <"6h1Vk3.0.Ns6.vUUWp"@mx1>
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Hi All:

   Is it possible that those who wish to dispute the subject of the
Newman machine could confine themselves to private email exchanges, or
some other medium of communication?
   Am I the only one who is tired of this endless flame war?  
   Isn't it obvious that the detractors of the Newman machine are never
going to accept that it works, and isn't it equally obvious that its
proponents will always accept that it works?  
   A consequence of these truisms is that discussion between these two
groups is futile.
   The fact that these truisms are not acknowledged by the parties
involved tells me that they enjoy the disputation for its own sake. More
power to them, but perhaps they could have their 200-round boxing match
somewhere else.
                                  Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 11:36:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA01388; Tue, 20 May 1997 11:35:41 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:35:41 -0700
Message-ID: <01BC6512.067E79E0@ristra.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Dispute: a means or an end?
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:36:14 -0700
Encoding: 17 TEXT, 42 UUENCODE
X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00
Resent-Message-ID: <"VjMIK3.0.WL.yxUWp"@mx1>
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Fred Epps wrote:
>      Is it possible that those who wish to dispute the subject of the
>  Newman machine could confine themselves to private email exchanges, or
>  some other medium of communication?
>    Am I the only one who is tired of this endless flame war?
[snip]

I, too, wish the Newman dispute would go elsewhere. To those who argue with 
Newman/Soule': I'm on your side of the fence but you're wasting your time 
and clogging up the list with noise. You must know by now that any mention 
of Newman that isn't positive will result in a response by Soule'. If 
Newman must be mentioned, accept the fact that Soule' will post a response, 
rational or not, and let it pass. Please don't continue the argument.

Spinning topic ally yours,

Dan Quickert

begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT
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end

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 12:07:07 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA06620; Tue, 20 May 1997 12:06:12 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:06:12 -0700
From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705201906.PAA26693@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: UFO Scope
To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com (science)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:06:03 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
Content-Type: text
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Status: O
X-Status: 

Hey,
   I just built a light-listining device useing a .75 volt solor cell and an
audio amp.  Any ideas of what I should look at with it?  The computer screen,
incendecent, and phosperecent lights all sound different.  Any other ideas?
Andrew
-- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 12:07:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id MAA06811; Tue, 20 May 1997 12:06:50 -0700
Resent-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:06:50 -0700
From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705201906.PAA26725@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: Electronics
To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com (science)
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:06:43 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
Content-Type: text
Resent-Message-ID: <"BiogV1.0.Kg1.9PVWp"@mx1>
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X-Status: 

Can some one please recomend a good book on learning electronics?  I know
some of the basics, but not much.  Can someone tell me where to look to
learn more?
Andrew -- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 13:03:27 1997
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Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:40:52 +0400
From: Hamdi Ucar <hamdix@verisoft.com.tr>
Organization: Orchestra
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Dan Quickert wrote:

> If Newman must be mentioned, accept the fact that Soule' will post a
> response, rational or not, and let it pass. Please don't continue the
> argument.

 
Thank you very much for your warnings. Sorry for I read your postings
lately just after posting my final letter, although I thought the same
thing.
This is a hopeless case. There will be only a profit from such a debate
is to learning how to manage frauds and isolate them for not harming the
real free energy researches. This issue will have prime importance when
the Greg's work is become available.

Regards,

Hamdi Ucar

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 13:18:29 1997
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Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:14:47 -0800
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Electronics
Resent-Message-ID: <"QIuIl3.0.iT4.JRWWp"@mx1>
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At 3:06 PM 5/20/97, Science wig. sig. wrote:
>Can some one please recomend a good book on learning electronics?  I know
>some of the basics, but not much.  Can someone tell me where to look to
>learn more?
>Andrew --
>+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+

I'm just learing electronics myself, as time permits,  so I've been through
a few of these hoops lately.

One of the best for beginner self study is "Grob Basic Electronics", by
Grob, McGraw Hill, ISBN 0-02-800762-X (Call 1-800-262-4729  to get McGraw
Hill toll free).  Lots of physics along with the electronics.  It goes very
slow, but that's why it is good for self study.  It spells out everything.
I recommend you do lots of the problems with answers supplied. It's boring
but well worth the time.

For lots of circuits to play with, try the McGraw Hill "Encyclopedia of
Electronics".  Don't spend a lot of money on the books like I have, though,
get the CD ROM version.  I got the first four book volumes super cheap, for
like about $15, by joining the McGraw Hill EE Book Club, but the follow on
volumes have cost a bit.  You can print the circuit diagrams from the CD on
a PC.

"Electrionic Devices", Floyd, Prentice Hall, ISBN 0-13-363599-6 (electron
flow version) seems pretty good.

An absolute must eventually is "The Art of Electronics", second edition, by
Paul Horowiz and Winfield Hill,  Cambridge University Press, ISBN
0-521-37095-7.

Also, the "cookbooks" are a must - the "TTL Cookbook", "CMOS Cookbook", and
"Op Amp Cookbook".  I don't have those yet so don't have other info.  Would
appreciate it if anyone does.  As with most things, I'm just plodding along
a bit at a time.

That's an amateur viewpoint.  I'm eager to hear what someone who knows what
he is doing has to say.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 13:24:59 1997
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Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:21:39 -0700
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Dan Quickert wrote:
> 
> Fred Epps wrote:
> >      Is it possible that those who wish to dispute the subject of the
> >  Newman machine could confine themselves to private email exchanges, or
> >  some other medium of communication?
> >    Am I the only one who is tired of this endless flame war?
> [snip]
> 
> I, too, wish the Newman dispute would go elsewhere. To those who argue with
> Newman/Soule': I'm on your side of the fence but you're wasting your time
> and clogging up the list with noise. You must know by now that any mention
> of Newman that isn't positive will result in a response by Soule'. If
> Newman must be mentioned, accept the fact that Soule' will post a response,
> rational or not, and let it pass. Please don't continue the argument.

I agree that any discussion of the technical merits of Newman's work is
futile.

As the Newman camp will not discuss any specifics of their basis for
threatening 
and suppressing other inventors with legal action, I see no point in any
direct discussions at all.

>From a purly technical standpoint, it might be interesting to discuss
some of 
Tesla's motors, but I fear any such discussion would degenerate into
more of the 
same flame-wars we all have suffered in the past.

(And my apologies to all for the bandwidth I've wasted on this in the
past!)

So, what do we do when a new freenrg-l subscriber shows up and asks the
question?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 15:19:17 1997
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From: mindtech@om.com.au
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:02:42 +1000
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>>purposes (ie. the TED device)
>>

Can you provide a ref or more infor on the TED device?

Peter Nielsen

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 15:57:06 1997
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Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:41:27 -0600
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Subject: Re:Dispute: a means or an end?
Resent-Message-ID: <"ejddI2.0.tK6.PZYWp"@mx2>
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>Dan Quickert wrote:
>
>> If Newman must be mentioned, accept the fact that Soule' will post a
>> response, rational or not, and let it pass. Please don't continue the
>> argument.
>
>
>Thank you very much for your warnings. Sorry for I read your postings
>lately just after posting my final letter, although I thought the same
>thing.
>This is a hopeless case. There will be only a profit from such a debate
>is to learning how to manage frauds and isolate them for not harming the
>real free energy researches. This issue will have prime importance when
>the Greg's work is become available.
>
>Regards,
>
>Hamdi Ucar

Dear Mr. Ucar,

The only thing which is "hopeless" is your Cremonini-attitude.  It is
obvious that you have no conception or understanding of this technology and
yet you believe yourself qualified to "pass judgement."  If you wish to
learn how to 'manage frauds,' I would suggest you borrow Mr. Rothwell's
"mirror" --- when he isn't observing his own reflection --- and begin by
observing your own actions.

Gyroscopically yours,

Evan Soule'
Director of Information
NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS
josephnewman@earthlink.net
(504) 524-3063
P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684
Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087
          http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html


P.S. Since you had earlier requested additional information, I have
separately forwarded same to your email address.


"Light is electromagnetic in nature and consists of 'negative' and
'positive' gyroscopic particles traveling in the same direction and having
opposite spins."
                                      --- JOSEPH NEWMAN




From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 16:22:30 1997
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Message-ID: <33822E58.17A74790@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:36:00 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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Subject: Simple Ou Toy web sites
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Hi All,

Jean-Louis and Stefan have agreeded to host the "Simple OU Toy" details.

1) They will publish the construction plans.  Jean-Louis will clean up
my hand draw sketches.  Thanks Jean-Louis.

2) They will build the devices from the plans.

3) They will test the devices and publish the results.

4) They will publish Jpeg's and Mpeg's of the working devices.


ANY QUESTIONS SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO ME.


Anyone else who wishes to post details on their web sites is free to do
so.


PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING :

The "Simple OU Toy" is a modification of the device in US patent
4,215,330.

It is NOT the device I am patenting.


-- 
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 16:44:00 1997
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Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:25:26 -0800
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Status of Toy OU Device
Resent-Message-ID: <"bMUNU.0.vR.tEZWp"@mx2>
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It appears the Toy OU device some of us are about to build is, or is soon
to be, public domain.  The Hartman patent, 4,215,330, was issued Jul. 29,
1980, almost 17 years ago.  I am not sure if the provision made it in to
the recent patent legislation, but it is possible the Hartman patent will
be extended to 20 years, assuming the fees are paid up to date.  Most
patents expire early due to failure to pay the expensive renewal fees.
Depending on whether the fees are paid up it may or may not be OK to sell
kits right now.

The other extensions to the Hartman idea, like sending the ball back around
in a circle, were posted here on a public domain list.  If the basic idea
works, it will mean free energy (however small) to all who can afford to
build and maintain the device.

Maybe an eventual big quesion: can it be scaled up?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 17:01:35 1997
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Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:43:12 -0600
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Subject: Re: Dispute: a means or an end?
Resent-Message-ID: <"bEqu_1.0.Es.DRZWp"@mx2>
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>Dan Quickert wrote:
>>
>> Fred Epps wrote:
>> >      Is it possible that those who wish to dispute the subject of the
>> >  Newman machine could confine themselves to private email exchanges, or
>> >  some other medium of communication?
>> >    Am I the only one who is tired of this endless flame war?
>> [snip]
>>
>> I, too, wish the Newman dispute would go elsewhere. To those who argue with
>> Newman/Soule': I'm on your side of the fence but you're wasting your time
>> and clogging up the list with noise. You must know by now that any mention
>> of Newman that isn't positive will result in a response by Soule'. If
>> Newman must be mentioned, accept the fact that Soule' will post a response,
>> rational or not, and let it pass. Please don't continue the argument.
>
>I agree that any discussion of the technical merits of Newman's work is
>futile.
>
>As the Newman camp will not discuss any specifics of their basis for
>threatening
>and suppressing other inventors with legal action, I see no point in any
>direct discussions at all.
>

I would hope one would agree that it is generally best to follow the advice
of one's attorney -- especially when he has specifically advised you to
follow such a course.

And let's establish this for the record:  I have no desire to argue with
anyone.  I was minding my own business -- now and then posting information
as appropriate -- when, out-of-the-blue, Mr. Rothwell chooses to publicly
post insults.  Mr. Rothwell's action began this particular series of
bandwidth threads.

If anyone have any problems with the nature of the bandwidth discussion, I
would invite them to take such problems up with Mr. Rothwell.

Gyroscopically yours,

Evan Soule'
Director of Information
NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS
josephnewman@earthlink.net
(504) 524-3063
P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684
Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087
          http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html


The First Law of Thermodynamics proves that the implications of the Second
Law of Thermodynamics are incorrect."
                           --- JOSEPH NEWMAN



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 17:45:24 1997
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Message-ID: <33824491.E9F9777E@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:10:49 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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Barry Merriman wrote:
> 
> Greg Watson wrote:
> >
> 
> > PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING :
> >
> > The "Simple OU Toy" is a modification of the device in US patent
> > 4,215,330.
> >
> > It is NOT the device I am patenting.
> >
> 
> Please clarify: what is the relation to the ball-on-track
> device you described, and also the relation to your
> recently completed quest to "close the loop"??
> 
> --
> Barry Merriman

Hi Barry,

Both are "Close The Loop Devices".  Shall we call them "CTLD"?

I believe the "Simple OU Toy" CTLD is very much in the public domain,
but will show mag based OU is possible.  It is different enough not to
clash with the patent 4,215,330 but that's just my opinion.

My latest CTLD, is very different.  I will disclose details of that
device some time in the future.

The "Simple OU Toy" CTLD is an attempt to prove what I have, without
giving the farm away.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 20:46:34 1997
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Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:16:08 -0800
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Peter Nielson's question on TED device
Resent-Message-ID: <"XTm8J2.0.xZ.zzcWp"@mx1>
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At 8:02 AM 5/21/97, mindtech@om.com.au wrote:

>
>Can you provide a ref or more infor on the TED device?
>
>Peter Nielsen


This a concept that I cooked up recently.  I have posted on vortex an idea
for an n-type Ge device that is expected to produce current in violation of
the second law.  It was batted about there a bit, but mostly dismissed as
not feasible.

I'll post today's version of the document here on freenrg in two parts.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 20:49:47 1997
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Thermal Electromagnetic Drift (TED) - Part 2
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THERMAL ELECTROMAGNETIC DRIFT (TED) - Horace Heffner  5/20/97 (Part 2)


A RATCHET MECHANISM

The field E  generated by charge accumulation at x axis ends of the cell is
backwards, i.e. contrary to the current flow.  The negative side is the
left side towards which electrons migrate.  It is the E that thwarts the
migration.  Keeping up the current flow is a matter of keeping the
resistance of the loop low to avoid much of an E.  E and the ion speeds,
and diversion due to collisions, are the primary things that limit the
current flow.  Despite drift speed limitations, the right-left drift should
be finite and continue indefinitely.

The electrons should leave the left side of the compartment "hot", i.e.
under pressure and with relatively high average speed.  Their energy is
spent in the resistive loop, heating it, and they return on the right side
cool.  This is ignoring electrode work functions, etc. However, there is
some hope that if the idea is sound then an experiment could be successful
because the right to left electrostatic gradient is additive.  Therefore,
many such cells or an arbitrarily long cell can be strung together to
achieve any desired potential.  The key to success then  is simply
obtaining a medium that maintains a supply of ions, electrons or holes,
capable of cyclotronic drift at ambient temperatures.  The proposed
semiconductor medium should fulfill that role nicely.

As mentioned earlier, the dopant (e.g. P) atoms tend to trap electrons with
a binding energy of about -0.01 eV, which is less than the average thermal
kinetic energy of about 0.023 eV for a 270 deg. kelvin operating
environment for the germanium crystal lattice.  Given no resistance, and
thus no potential barrier, significant and measurable currents might be
detected from a TEDD cell at an operating B of about 0.5 T and dB/dy of
about 0.1 T and dopant density of about 10^22 atoms/m^2.

Resistance in the crystal lattice is mostly in the form of heat due to
collisions with lattice atoms, and interactions with dopants and
impurities. However, in the face of a building reverse electrostatic field
barrier built due to resistance to electron flow, the electron interaction
with the dopant might provide a ratchet mechanism to permit the gradual
overcoming of a potential barrier.  As an electron drifts against a
potential field, it loses kinetic energy, meaning it cools.  This makes the
cool electron susceptible to recapture by a dopant atom, especially after
the electron cools to below the 0.01 eV binding energy with the dopant.
Once captured, the electron is hung on a notch of the ratchet mechanism.
It will not get out, nor move backwards, until it has absorbed sufficient
thermal energy from the dopant atom and surrounding lattice, etc., to
overcome the -0.01 eV well.  When it does get out, it then again drifts
forward until captured again.  If the electron should sufficiently slow,
due to Brownian motion, or motion mostly in the z axis, etc., it can drift
backwards in a direction with the E field.  However, it then should pick up
kinetic energy in the xy plane from that backward movement with the E
field, and then tend to be much more likely to drift to the left, and to
drift left at an increasingly higher rate.  The ratchet mechanism should be
very fine toothed, in that even in the purest crystals and lowest operating
temperatures only a few orbits an be achieved on average. The ratchet tooth
height of about 1/2 the average kinetic energy seems about ideal.

The ratchet mechanism greatly reduces the current due to the time delay
required for the electrons to pick up the required thermal energy while
pinned to the dopant atoms.  However, it does permit movement of the drift
current against a potential barrier, and thus permits useful work to be
done at the expense of cooling the crystal lattice.


SAMPLE CURRENT ESTIMATE WITH R AND E ASSUMED TO BE ZERO

Let's assume we can achieve operation in an average of a 0.5 T field with a
dB/dy magnetic field gradient of -0.1 T/cm, and a drift electron density of
Nd = 10^22/m^3.  Assume M* to be about Me/10 = 0.91 10^-31 kg.  Elementary
charge e = 1.6x10^-19 C.  We get the angular frequency Wc = (e)(B)/m* =
(1.6x10^-19 C)(0.5 T)/(0.91 10^-31 kg) = 1.76x10^12 rad s^-1, or a
frequency:

   f = 1.4x10^11 sec^-1.

Assume average thermal energy 270 deg. kelvin. At 11,600 deg. K/eV that's
0.023 eV.  At 1.6x10^-19 J/eV we have an average free electron energy of
3.7x10^-21 J.

Assuming we can apply E = 0.5(M*)(Vxyz^2), we have:

   3.7x10^-21 k*m^2/s^2 = 0.5(0.91 10^-31 kg)(Vxyz^2)

   Vxyz = 2.85x10^5 m/s

However, 2/3 of v should be in the xy plane and 1/3 in the z plane on
average, so we get an xy plane velocity of:

   Vxy = v = 1.9x10^5 m/s

Given a time of 1/f = 1/(1.4x10^11 sec^-1) = 7.14x10^-12 sec, this give an
orbital circumference of v/f = (1.9x10^5 m/s)(7.14x10^-12 sec) = 1.36x10^-6
m.  This gives an orbital diameter of:

   Do = 4.33x10^-7 m

Given that dB/dy = -0.1 T/cm = -10 T/m, we have delta B = (-10
T/m)(4.33x10^-7 m) = -4.33x10^-6 T across the range of the loop.  This
means the bottom radius averages roughly about (0.5)(4.33x10^-6 T)/(0.5 T)
= 4.33x10^-6 times the top radius in the loop, giving a Td on the x axis
of:

   Td = (4.33x10^-6)(4.33x10^-7 m) = 1.86x10^-12 m.

Note that the factor 0.5 is used in order to average the B across the top
loop, and to similarly average B over the bottom loop.

Given a repetition rate of f = 1.4x10^11 sec^-1 we have a drift rate:

   Vd = (Td)(f) = (1.86x10^-12 m)(1.4x10^11 sec^-1) = 1.6 m/s.

Using Nd = 10^22 m^-3 we get a current density:

   J =  (Vd)(Nd)/(6x10^18 electrons/s/ampere)
     = (1.6 m/s)(10^22 m^-3)/(6x10^18 electrons/s/ampere)
     = 2660 amperes/m^2.

Assuming a conductor of 10^-3 m on a side, or 10^-6 m^2 cross section, we
should get a current of 2.66 mA, assuming no resistance.


Checking orbital radius with formula:

Ro = (m*)(v)/((q)(B)) = (0.91 10^-31 kg)(1.9x10^5 m/s)/((1.6x10^-19 C)(0.5 T))

Ro = 2.16x10^-7 m

Ro = Do/2 = (4.33x10^-7 m)/2 = 2.165x10^-7  check


DESIGNS FOR SCALING UP ELECTRIC CURRENT GENERATION

FIG. 5 is a drawing of a side view cross section, z axis top to bottom, of
a device using two magnets, M1 and M2, where chamber X meets the above
description from the viewer's perspective (he is at the bottom looking up,)
and chamber Y reverses those flows, etc.


        --------------------
"Top    | N      M1      S |
of      --------------------      "Bottom of page"
page"   ---------  ---------
        |   X   |  |   Y   |       Electrons flow out of page in X
        ---------  ---------       and into page in Y
        --------------------
        | S      M2      N |
        --------------------


          8^)  <--------- Viewer

             FIG. 5


Note that the B field can be further shaped to control dB/dy by contouring
the magnets or by ferrous material insertion.  There is no limit to the
length of the x axis in the configuration shown in FIG. 5.

Looking at FIG. 6, X might be a cross section of two sides of a TEDD shaped
like a ring.

        --------------------        --------------------
        | N      M1      S |        | S      M1      N |
        --------------------        --------------------
                   ---------        ---------
                   |   X   |        |   X   |
                   ---------        ---------
        --------------------        --------------------
        | S      M2      N |        | N      M2      S |
        --------------------        --------------------

                        FIG. 6

The chamber could be placed to the outside of the ring, as with Y in FIG.
7, or some combination of the two.

        --------------------        --------------------
        | N      M1      S |        | S      M1      N |
        --------------------        --------------------
        ---------                              ---------
        |   Y   |                              |   Y   |
        ---------                              ---------
        --------------------        --------------------
        | S      M2      N |        | N      M2      S |
        --------------------        --------------------


                          FIG. 7


A device might be formed into a coil, as shown in FIG. 8.


        --------------------
        | N      M1      S |
        --------------------
        ---------  ---------
        |   X   |  |   Y   |
        ---------  ---------
        --------------------
        | S      M2      N |
        --------------------
        ---------  ---------
        |   Q   |  |   R   |
        ---------  ---------
        --------------------
        | N      M1      S |
        --------------------
        ---------  ---------
        |   X   |  |   Y   |
        ---------  ---------
        --------------------
        | S      M2      N |
        --------------------
        ---------  ---------
        |   Q   |  |   R   |
        ---------  ---------
           ... etc.


               FIG. 8


A TEDD can be built by cutting or etching a chip into a spiral
configuration where the magnetic field diminishes radially, as in FIG. 9.
Multiple chips can be stacked in three dimensions, the outer end of the
spiral of one level attached to the inner end of the next level.



        |   S    |
         \      /
          \    /
           \  /
            \/
        ==========     <------- Spiral chip layers
        ----------
        |   N    |
        |        |

          FIG. 9



Note that the primary  objective of the TEDDs in Figures 5 through 9 is
electric current generation and not heat. In this case lateral heat flow
between opposite conducting chambers X and Y is good, as it helps maintain
the thermal energy of the TED.  This can be used to advantage to form
layered chip technology, as in FIG 10, can be made using ferrous prisms,
designated M in FIG 10, between semiconductor layers to shape the magnetic
field to  achieve the gradient dB/dy.  Electrons flow into page in chambers
X and out of page in chambers (semiconductors) Y.  Each layer can thus be
made from a single chip where the x' and Y's are all one continuous piece
of semiconductor cut or etched into folds that serpentine back and forth
across the chip, and separated by supporting and insulating material.  The
substrate, if any, would have to be non-conductive.


        |                       |
        |          S            |
        -------------------------
        M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M
         XY XY XY XY XY XY XY XY
        M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M
         XY XY XY XY XY XY XY XY
        M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M
         XY XY XY XY XY XY XY XY
        M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M
         XY XY XY XY XY XY XY XY
        M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M
        -------------------------
        |          N            |
        |                       |



               FIG. 10




A PRELIMINARY TEST OF N-TYPE SILICON

A solar cell was obtained that was made up of many pieces of probably
surplus silicon chip fragment tiled together in a protective plastic box
with dimensions about 45x75x5 mm.  Some of the tiles had only parallel
conductive strips deposited on their surfaces.  They were affixed to a
metal foil on the bottom and had strips of foil laid over their tops to
collect the current. A 5x12 mm trapezoidal chip fragment was removed that
had only 3 parallel metal strips on the top.  The parallel metal strips
were about 2.5 mm apart and ran diagonally across the chip.  The chip had a
lacework of metal grid lines deposited on its back side.  The potential
front to back under a fluorescent light was 23 mV.

Two pieces of No.40 copper wire were soldered to the outer most metal
strips on the top of the chip.  The leads were then soldered back onto the
original lugs in the protective  plastic package from which the much larger
composite cell had been removed .  Resistance was 26.7 ohms in the dark.
Holding it up to the light made the resistance drop to under 25 ohms.  The
light exposed side of the chip was negative, indicating an n-type silicon
surface layer.

The DMM was then set to a 200 mV range. A 35 MGo magnet was then moved
about the chip. There was no sign of voltage.  There was no response on the
micro-amp scale either.  When set to measure resistance, however, the
motion of the magnet was clearly sensed by the meter, i.e. the change in
sensed current due to moving flux, but there was no sustained change in
resistance measured when no element was in motion.

A much more sensitive meter is needed.


A PRELIMINARY CHECK ON COPPER FOR A TED EFFECT

In an attempt to determine if easily measurable thermal electromagnetic
drift (TED) occurs in copper wires the following configuration was tried:


        |        |
        |        |
        |        |
        |        |     0.5" radius x 5" long steel plumb bob
        |        |     with conical tip on 45 deg. slope
        |   S    |
         \      /
        oo\    /oo
        ooo\  /ooo
        oooo\/oooo
        oooooooooo     <------- Coil of insulated wire, about 100 turns
        ----------              (Telephone cross connect wire)
        |   N    |
        |        |
        |        |
        |        |
        |        |    1x1x1.5"  35 MGO magnet
        |   S    |
        ----------

Coil resistance was 0.7 ohms.  No voltage or current was detected.



AN EXPERIMENT WITH SOME CLUES?

An attempt was being made to measure a rotating magnetic field by using a
FET, due to the gate's effect being due to potential:


  Rotating Flux (moving toward reader, out of page)
      .
      .     S----------------------
      .     |
     =====G-+  FET probe
      .     |
      .     D-----------------------

S  - source
D  - drain
G  - gate
==  - active area of probe
..  - flux line rotating toward reader, out of page


A dual gate MOSFET, NTE455, was tried, with the two gates tied together to
make a probe tip.  It was a very sensitive probe.  It picked up fluorescent
bulb at about 2 feet, and was very good at sensing ambient noise. It went
totally dead when a magnet was initially brought near it.  As viewed on an
oscilloscope the background noise was flat lined, the MOSFET had zero
conductivity. When the magnet was removed the MOSFET conducted and showed
ambient noise again.  With a magnet near it, but not too close, the two
were moved toward a fluorescent bulb and the MOSFET eventually picked up
the signal, but the proximity of the magnet set a threshold for the
distance it would start sensing.  The MOSFET could make a gauss meter in an
appropriate circuit.

Since it is nearly impossible to have no gradient dB/dx or DB/dy, it is
desirable to investigate this phenomenon a little further.  The effect may
be a Hall type effect, a TED type effect, or some other semiconductor
related effect.


CONCLUSION

It seems it may be very worthwhile to test appropriate semiconducting
material,  in particular very pure Ge doped with P, but also others like Si
doped with P, for the TED effect, using very accurate DC meters.  It may
also be useful to check GaAs and other semiconductors as well.  Meters
accurate to the uV might be built using circuits similar to those used in
PH meters. (See the McGraw Hill Encyclopedia of Electronic Circuits for
example.)  One possible source of materials for a quick check are Hall
effect devices.  It is simply necessary to place the semiconductor in a
magnetic field with an appropriate gradient as spelled out above, and
measure any persistent current whatsoever.  A very sensitive voltmeter or
ammeter is required.

It is of further interest to study EM radiation from semiconductors with
free thermal electrons.  Such electrons should radiate.  If compartment B
radiates in a manner that is channeled to and absorbed by compartment A,
and there is a lack of symmetry, ie. the lack of magnetic field in
compartment A prevents radiating energy back toward compartment B until a
higher temperature is reached, allowing black body radiation to match, then
the objective of demonstrating the incompatibility of the second law with
one (or more) laws of electromagnetism is achieved.

Also of further interest to study is the use of thermopiles (tall broad
stack of thermocouple junctions) for compartment B in order to use the
junctions as ratchets for the TED effect.  This configuration is expected
to be effective due to the low voltage generated across the junctions. The
temperature gradient achieved from "compartment A waste heat" can then be
used to assist in maintaining the favorable potential gradient.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 20:50:28 1997
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:02:31 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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CC: List Server Freenrg <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Simple Ou Toy web sites
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Steve Ekwall wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 21 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote:
> > Jean-Louis and Stefan have agreeded to host the "Simple OU Toy"
> details.
> > 1) They will publish the construction plans.  Jean-Louis will clean
> up
> > my hand draw sketches.  Thanks Jean-Louis.
> 
> GREAT, WHAT ARE THEIR (2)WEB SITE ADDRESS' ??
> 
> >
> > 2) They will build the devices from the plans.
> 
> CAN'T WE PLAY TOO?? or do we have to wait for them to build these two
> models.. before> 3) They will test the devices and publish the
> results.
> >
> > 4) They will publish Jpeg's and Mpeg's of the working devices.
> 
> LOOKING FORWARD TO THE PIC's
> 
> steve

Hi Steve,

Sorry for the confusion.

I will publish the construction plans via attachments to my posts to
freenrg-l and vortex-l.  

The web sites will also have the details.  

Anyone can build the devices.  

Anyone can display the results on there web sites.

I hope many do.  

The Jean-Louis and Stefan will build the devices and display the results
to assist others.  They both have still and video capabilities.

Stefan Hartman's site is :

   http://www.overunity.de

Jean-Louis's site is :

   http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 20:49:47 1997
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Old-Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:15:51 -0800
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Thermal Electromagnetic Drift (TED) - Part 1
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THERMAL ELECTROMAGNETIC DRIFT (TED) - Horace Heffner  5/20/97 (PART 1)


BACKGROUND AND OBJECTIVE

The first and second laws of thermodynamics are assumptions, or at least
based upon assumptions.  It is possible that multiple assumed "laws" can be
mutually inconsistent.  In such a case, using logic or an example to
produce a more evident inconsistency from the laws is useful in order to
see or understand the inconsistency.

The primary objective of this paper is to demonstrate an inconsistency
between  the second law of thermodynamics and the Lorentz force.

The Lorentz force is a force exerted on a charged particle, like an
electron, moving through an electromagnetic field.  Given F, E, v, and B,
vectors representing force, electrostatic field strength, velocity, and
magnetic field strength, a particle of charge q0 experiences a force given
by the Lorentz relation:

   F = (q0 E) + (q0 V) x B

Here x means vector product. This implies, for example, that an electron in
the absence of field E, and traveling left to right, perpendicular to a
magnetic field B that is out of the page, will experience an upward force
(see FIG. 1).  This further implies that, if B is out of the page,
electrons of a fixed speed will move in counter clockwise circles of fixed
radius, ignoring any of their motion in the axis normal to the page.
Positrons will move in exactly the same manner, except in a clockwise
direction.  The radius of such a circle is called the cyclotron radius.
Such circular motion, including any additional motion due to a field E, is
called here cyclotronic motion.


        B out of page toward reader

             ^
             | force F
             |
             |    velocity v
           (e-)---------->



       FIG. 1 - Lorentz force (E assumed zero)

The circular motion that results has a characteristic frequency f, called
the cyclotron frequency, that is independent of speed, because the
cyclotron radius is proportional to speed.  This frequency is given by:

   f = q B / (2 Pi m)

where m is mass and Pi is 3.14159....

The first law of thermodynamics is the law of conservation of energy:
"Energy can neither be created nor destroyed."

The second law of thermodynamics is the law of entropy, and is stated in
various ways, one of which is:"It is impossible for any cycling device to
exchange heat with only a single reservoir and produce work."

It is an objective here to define a physically realizable system which for
all practical consideration is a closed, isolated system that (1) has no
moving parts other than electrons, and no stored potential energy other
than the thermal energy of the system and that of a permanent magnetic
field, (2) has two compartments, A and B, (3) has a given starting
condition that all parts have a uniform temperature of 270 degrees Kelvin,
(4) spontaneously moves heat from compartment A to compartment B  and (5)
thus either does useful work during the transfer process (e.g. electrical)
and/or makes it possible to use the temperature difference to do useful
work while transferring or conducting the heat from compartment B back to
compartment A.   The looping of heat back to compartment A closes the
energy loop and creates "perpetual motion".  If a true physical embodiment
of (1) through (4) can exist then the second law of thermodynamics is no
longer a law; it then needs qualifications or restrictions in scope.

It is maybe more accurate to say that such a system would actually fall
totally outside the realm of thermodynamics as normally defined, in that it
violates what is commonly called the "zeroth law of thermodynamics".  This
"law" is actually a definition upon which the second law is based, namely:
"Two systems which are equal in temperature with a third are equal in
temperature with each other."  This definition is based on the idea that
two systems are equal in temperature if no change in property occurs when
they are in thermal contact.  This is the characteristic that validates use
of mercury  thermometers, for example.  If a thermometer does not change
its physical properties when moved from one compartment to another, then
the two compartments must have the same temperature.  Inherently assumed in
this concept is the notion that a closed isolated system at a uniform
temperature can not self modify its own physical properties.  If the
temperature of such a compartment is verified to be the same as a
thermometer by the lack of change of state of the thermometer, and the
thermometer is moved to another similar compartment to compare
temperatures, and the temperature is found equal, it can only be said the
first and second compartments are the same temperature if it is known that
the first compartment can not spontaneously change its temperature in the
interim.



          Compartment A
         ---------------
         |             |
         |             |
         | Resistor R  |  Hot (>270 K)
         |             |
         |             |
         ---------------
          ^     |     |
          |     |     |
         (e-)  Heat  (e-)
          |     |     |
          |     |     |
          |     v     v
         ---------------
         |             |
         |             |
         |  <--- (e-)  |  Cool (<270 K)
         |             |
         |             |
         ---------------
          Compartment B


       FIG. 2 - Block Diagram of System in Equilibrium

In the proposed system (see FIG. 2), compartment A contains a current
generating mechanism except for the resistive current loop, and any device
it may power, which is in compartment B.  Electrical connection is made
between the right side of compartment A to the right side of compartment B,
and similarly on the left side.  The compartments are thermally connected.
Some of the heat of compartment A is converted to electrical energy which
is transferred to compartment B, the resistive circuit, where it does
useful work and thereby heats compartment B. Compartment A is spontaneously
cooled while compartment B is heated, all with no active components. The
waste heat from compartment B is allowed to flow back to A to maintain it's
heat so it can continue to generate power.

If a compartment A is defined which can perpetually maintain a potential
difference and a corresponding current flow, however small, then the
objectives have been achieved.


THERMAL ELECTROMAGNETIC DRIFT

In a uniform magnetic field coming out of the page, thermal positive ions
(or holes) will tend to move in a clockwise circle, negative ions will tend
to move in a counterclockwise circle.  If the magnetic field is
non-uniform, a gradient with the field B stronger at the bottom of the page
than at the top, then drift occurs.  Positive ions (or holes) will tend to
drift to the right, negative ions to the left.  The drift is caused by the
fact that the cyclotron radius is smaller on average on the bottom portion
of the loop.  Thus positive particles move in long arcs to the right and
short arcs to the left, for example.  Electrons move in long arcs to the
left and short arcs to the right.  Assume that the x axis is left to right,
the y axis bottom to top of page, and the z axis is increasing out of page
toward the reader (see FIG. 3).

That thermally energized drift occurs implies that in the proposed magnetic
gradient, dB/dy, the energy from ambient heat can be used to form an
electrostatic gradient, negative to the left and positive to the right.
With a completed circuit, the configuration takes thermal energy from ions
in the magnetic field gradient and converts it to current. If the thermally
drifting ions have bounds to their motion to the left and right , then a
field E should be formed in the X axis due to the accumulation of charged
particles at the boundaries.

In the proposed cell, the magnitude of B decreases linearly with an
increase in y and is constant at all z, and x, for a given y.  The
direction cosines of B are constant at (0,0,1).  For this reason it seems
sufficient to use a two dimensional (2D) model to analyze the effect.

In a uniform magnetic field coming out of the page, thermal positive ions
will tend to rotate in a clockwise circle.  If the field is stronger at the
bottom of the page (decreasing B in y direction) the path, as viewed in the
x,y plane of the paper, might look something like the path shown in FIG. 3.



      |<---------------- Td --------------->|

   -->o                                     o-->
              o                    o
                  o           o                  B smaller

                        o

                     o      o
                                            |
                    o        o              |
                                          dB/dy
                     o     o                |
                        o                   V
                                                 B larger


    FIG. 3 - Motion of positive particle in graduated B field.


Electrons would tend to drift in the opposite or left-wise direction.  It
appears that any motion in the z axis would be irrelevant to these
dynamics.  Also, it seems that, if there is any resistance at the left or
right boundaries, or if they are closed, as the top and bottom are assumed
to be, then a right to left electrostatic gradient will form.  An effect
called ExB drift will then increase pressure toward the top of the cell,
which will quickly reach equilibrium, due to the cell boundaries at top and
bottom.  It is assumed the top and bottom cell boundaries do not destroy or
neutralize the charge, but do confine it within the cell.  If resistance at
the right and left boundaries is partial, then a net current, consisting of
the combination of positive flow to right and negative flow to the left,
should occur.  In the proposed thermal electromagnetic drift, particles of
different charge move in opposite directions.  The apparent current moves
in one direction.

The x axis drifting effect due to repeated regular displacements Td at the
cyclotronic frequency is called here thermal electromagnetic drift (TED).
A device using the TED effect is called a TED device (or TEDD).

Note that in practice Td would be very small in relation to the cyclotronic
radius,  but the drift not so small due to the fast cyclotron frequency.


A REVERSE ENTROPY DEVICE

It is proposed that a TED device can be achieved in an actual n-type
lattice. Consider FIG. 4:


         B ~= 0.5 T out of page

        -----------------------
        |                     |
        |                     |
        |                     |
        |      n-type         |        |
        |      lattice        |        |
        |                     |      dB/dy = -0.1 T / cm
        |  (-)          (+)   |        |
        |                     |        V
        |                     |
        -----------------------

            Small E ------>

     <------ Hot electron TED direction

     Cool electron drift in E field --->

               FIG. 4


The leftward TED induced by dB/dy creates a small negative charge to the
left, leaving a small positive charge to the right.  This creates an
electrostatic field E across the lattice, but reaches an equilibrium, with
hot electrons drifting to the left, due to TED, at the same rate as cool
electrons drift to the right, due to E.  However, this tendency for hot
electrons to drift left and cool electrons to drift right should create a
higher temperature to the left.

To disprove the second law it is only necessary to show that a TEDD can
generate whatsoever either any potential or any thermal gradient across a
TED, no matter how small the effect.  However, the fundamental question
regarding practical use or even an experimental test is the question of
whether TED cells can be put in series, or alternatively made long, in
order to increase the total electrostatic potential achievable at a given
temperature.  The magnetic field does not add energy to the ions. The
kinetic energy of the ions is there initially only in the form of heat.
The magnetic field gradient only serves to organize things.  Since 1 eV =
11,600 deg. K, at 270 K the average ion should have a kinetic energy of
about 0.0233 eV.  This means that a maximum cell potential is about 0.023 V
if the full kinetic energy of the average ion is to be sapped before
reaching the cell boundaries in the course of overcoming a reverse field
gradient E (not likely!).  This cell operating voltage of 0.0233 V
establishes a minimum of 26 cells that must work in series at 270 K to
produce a meaningful potential of about 0.6 V to do electrolysis, for
example. In practice it should be a much larger number.

Of interest is the fact that faster moving ions will have a large Td and
thus  drift faster than slow ones. This implies that a thermal gradient
might be established. It should be coldest in the middle of the cell,
warmest near the right and left boundaries in a cell with the magnetic
gradient bottom to top as in our examples.  However, in a cell with both
positive and negative ions flowing, the thermal gradient tends to balance
except at the cell boundaries.  This implies that the ions can move toward
the cell boundaries in small increments.  That is to say the following
stage-wise process would be repeated: (1) the drift causes motion against
the field gradient and a loss of kinetic energy. (2) collisions with
impurities or the lattice phonons cause, on average, a restoration of
kinetic energy (3) the drift repeats.  In other words, fast moving (hot)
particles tend to drift in their own direction faster than slow (cold) ones
tend to fall back.

The above seems to imply that, provided the heat is continually
replenished, say from the top side of the cell via a heat conduit from
compartment B, that large electrostatic potentials, like 0.6 V, can be
achieved by making the TED cells sufficiently long or by placing a
sufficient number in series, provided there is a viable means of charge
exchange at the right and left boundaries.

It appears a good material for a test may be germanium doped with group V
elements, like phosphorous or arsenic, an n-type germanium.  A perfect
germanium crystal is transparent to free electrons, but the electron acts
as if it has mass m*, where m* ~= m/10. [see Hall, "Solid State Physics"]
The problem is in achieving high enough purity to approximate "perfect".
The dopants trap free electrons with a binding energy of about -0.01 eV,
which is less than the average thermal kinetic energy of about 0.026 eV, so
many of the impurity sites will be ionized, providing the free electrons.
The ground state wave function for the dopant bound electrons has a radius
of about 50 Angstroms, which accounts for the low energy binding.

It is of interest that cyclotron resonance is used to determine m*
experimentally.  The electrons, of apparent mass m*, move in circular
orbits at an angular frequency of f = (e)(B)/(m*), independent of their
energy, and thus can absorb EM radiation at frequency f.  At 1 tesla we get
f to be approximately 10^12 s^-1.  One of the problems in measuring
cyclotron resonance, and a possible problem to drift detection, is getting
the electrons to complete a few orbits on average before disruption by
impurities or thermal vibrations.  For this reason extremely pure material
is used at liquid He temperatures to determine m*. For our purposes, which
does not require resonance, it does not seem like these extreme measures
are necessary.  The loops would in effect be borken into many small
increments, but the average effect should be the same.

It is also of interest that holes can be used as well as electrons for
determining m*, and that it is possible to use a mixture of n and p type
dopants to achieve electron migration to the left and hole migration to the
right  when the B gradient is vertical as in our example (i.e. dB/dx = 0,
dB/dy = -|ky|, dB/dz=0).

Since there are no moving parts, and the proposed TEDD can do useful work
in a system where heat is initially totally uniform, it appears to be a
successful attack on the second law. The actual current generated may be so
small as to require a SQUIB or Josephson junction type device to detect it,
but the demonstration of the perpetual generating of a current while
cooling a device below ambient would still be a very useful experiment from
a theoretical standpoint.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 22:26:22 1997
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Subject: Re: Status of Toy OU Device
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--snip--
>
>Maybe an eventual big quesion: can it be scaled up?
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner          
>

I firmly believe that with an adequate understanding of
what the magnetic fields are doing, it would have to
be scalable. It may be a hundred pounds per horsepower
and therefore not appropriate for driving a car but 
would still be able to run a house or at least reduce
your heating bill.

                        Scott Becker

                                    Scott Becker
                                    skot@compumedia.com


/**********************************************************/
/* has anyone ever proven to you that energy is conserved */
/**********************************************************/

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 20 22:52:58 1997
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:19:16 +0930
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Message-ID: <33828CA8.AD8F3841@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:18:24 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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William Beaty wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 21 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote:
> 
> > The "Simple OU Toy" CTLD is an attempt to prove what I have, without
> > giving the farm away.
> 
> Hi Greg!
> 
> Something not totally clear: have you succeeded in getting the Hartman
> patent to actually work in closed-loop mode?  It SHOULD work, but if you
> haven't actually succeeded, there is a chance that some weird little
> difference will prevent operation of the "o/u toy".

My Simple Magnetic Ou Toy is a modification of the Hartman patent
(4,215,330) using multi curved ramps.  You are correct, it does work! 
Building and adjusting the magnetic contours is tricky.  The ramp
designs I will present, make it easy to develop the skill necessary to
master the adjustments.

> Also: I don't think you've mentioned the total number of closed-loop
> systems you've successfully made work.  Are more than one of them up and
> running, including non-patent versions?

Yes there are, two similar but different systems.  One based on the
patent and one I am working on the patent for.  The Simple Magnetic OU
Toy (SMOT) is based on the old patent as I said but the Rotary Magnetic
OU Device (RMOD) is not.  I am currently building the second version of
the RMOD in plexi-glass (See NO wires).

> William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775

Hi Bill,

Sorry to be so confusing, but I really am not ready to disclose my
rotary shaft device (RMOD) yet.  I took the path of returning to the
Hartman patent and working on it to develop a proof of mag ou device
(SMOT) to settle the doubts without giving away my real device.

I believe there are many variations possible (the Gary devices I believe
will work as well).

What I am attempting to do is to infuse in as many people as possible,
the desire to stop talking and get their hands dirty building OU devices
of ANY kind.

To show that OU is possible, without a doubt!


In closing I have build two classes of magnetic based closed loop
devices which have no known power input other than that supplied by hard
and soft ferromagnetic material :

 1) SMOT (Simple Magnetic Ou Toy) which I will fully disclosed in 4
phases.

 2) RMOD (Rotary Magnetic Ou Device) which will NOT be disclosed until
the patent is in progress.

--------------1ECA84DF44C2E1210EB57B7E--

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 21 01:07:03 1997
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Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:34:00 -0800
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Simple Ou Toy web sites]
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At 3:19 PM 5/21/97, Greg Watson wrote:
[snip]
>
>My Simple Magnetic Ou Toy is a modification of the Hartman patent
>(4,215,330) using multi curved ramps.  You are correct, it does work!
>Building and adjusting the magnetic contours is tricky.  The ramp
>designs I will present, make it easy to develop the skill necessary to
>master the adjustments.
>
[snip]

It seems like plastic or even glass tubing should be fairly easy to adjust.
Is there some reason rails are necessary?

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 21 01:07:03 1997
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Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:57:55 -0800
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Peter Nielson's question on TED device
Resent-Message-ID: <"FmstD1.0.GA.7cgWp"@mx2>
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At 6:16 PM 5/20/97, Horace Heffner wrote:
>At 8:02 AM 5/21/97, mindtech@om.com.au wrote:
>
>>
>>Can you provide a ref or more infor on the TED device?
>>
>>Peter Nielsen
>
>
>This a concept that I cooked up recently.  I have posted on vortex an idea
>for an n-type Ge device that is expected to produce current in violation of
>the second law.  It was batted about there a bit, but mostly dismissed as
>not feasible.
>
>I'll post today's version of the document here on freenrg in two parts.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner


Well, I sent the TED posts at the same time as the above, but they must be
taking a while to grind through the server because they are big.  Not
beyond the limit though, I think.  If they don't show up in a while I'll
send them in three parts.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 21 04:52:55 1997
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Message-ID: <33828CA8.AD8F3841@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:18:24 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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William Beaty wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 21 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote:
> 
> > The "Simple OU Toy" CTLD is an attempt to prove what I have, without
> > giving the farm away.
> 
> Hi Greg!
> 
> Something not totally clear: have you succeeded in getting the Hartman
> patent to actually work in closed-loop mode?  It SHOULD work, but if you
> haven't actually succeeded, there is a chance that some weird little
> difference will prevent operation of the "o/u toy".

My Simple Magnetic Ou Toy is a modification of the Hartman patent
(4,215,330) using multi curved ramps.  You are correct, it does work! 
Building and adjusting the magnetic contours is tricky.  The ramp
designs I will present, make it easy to develop the skill necessary to
master the adjustments.

> Also: I don't think you've mentioned the total number of closed-loop
> systems you've successfully made work.  Are more than one of them up and
> running, including non-patent versions?

Yes there are, two similar but different systems.  One based on the
patent and one I am working on the patent for.  The Simple Magnetic OU
Toy (SMOT) is based on the old patent as I said but the Rotary Magnetic
OU Device (RMOD) is not.  I am currently building the second version of
the RMOD in plexi-glass (See NO wires).

> William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775

Hi Bill,

Sorry to be so confusing, but I really am not ready to disclose my
rotary shaft device (RMOD) yet.  I took the path of returning to the
Hartman patent and working on it to develop a proof of mag ou device
(SMOT) to settle the doubts without giving away my real device.

I believe there are many variations possible (the Gary devices I believe
will work as well).

What I am attempting to do is to infuse in as many people as possible,
the desire to stop talking and get their hands dirty building OU devices
of ANY kind.

To show that OU is possible, without a doubt!


In closing I have build two classes of magnetic based closed loop
devices which have no known power input other than that supplied by hard
and soft ferromagnetic material :

 1) SMOT (Simple Magnetic Ou Toy) which I will fully disclosed in 4
phases.

 2) RMOD (Rotary Magnetic Ou Device) which will NOT be disclosed until
the patent is in progress.

--------------1ECA84DF44C2E1210EB57B7E--

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 21 09:30:39 1997
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 08:27:18 -0800
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: TED - Part 1 of 3
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THERMAL ELECTROMAGNETIC DRIFT (TED) - Horace Heffner  5/20/97


BACKGROUND AND OBJECTIVE

The first and second laws of thermodynamics are assumptions, or at least
based upon assumptions.  It is possible that multiple assumed "laws" can be
mutually inconsistent.  In such a case, using logic or an example to
produce a more evident inconsistency from the laws is useful in order to
see or understand the inconsistency.

The primary objective of this paper is to demonstrate an inconsistency
between  the second law of thermodynamics and the Lorentz force.

The Lorentz force is a force exerted on a charged particle, like an
electron, moving through an electromagnetic field.  Given F, E, v, and B,
vectors representing force, electrostatic field strength, velocity, and
magnetic field strength, a particle of charge q0 experiences a force given
by the Lorentz relation:

   F = (q0 E) + (q0 V) x B

Here x means vector product. This implies, for example, that an electron in
the absence of field E, and traveling left to right, perpendicular to a
magnetic field B that is out of the page, will experience an upward force
(see FIG. 1).  This further implies that, if B is out of the page,
electrons of a fixed speed will move in counter clockwise circles of fixed
radius, ignoring any of their motion in the axis normal to the page.
Positrons will move in exactly the same manner, except in a clockwise
direction.  The radius of such a circle is called the cyclotron radius.
Such circular motion, including any additional motion due to a field E, is
called here cyclotronic motion.


        B out of page toward reader

             ^
             | force F
             |
             |    velocity v
           (e-)---------->



       FIG. 1 - Lorentz force (E assumed zero)

The circular motion that results has a characteristic frequency f, called
the cyclotron frequency, that is independent of speed, because the
cyclotron radius is proportional to speed.  This frequency is given by:

   f = q B / (2 Pi m)

where m is mass and Pi is 3.14159....

The first law of thermodynamics is the law of conservation of energy:
"Energy can neither be created nor destroyed."

The second law of thermodynamics is the law of entropy, and is stated in
various ways, one of which is:"It is impossible for any cycling device to
exchange heat with only a single reservoir and produce work."

It is an objective here to define a physically realizable system which for
all practical consideration is a closed, isolated system that (1) has no
moving parts other than electrons, and no stored potential energy other
than the thermal energy of the system and that of a permanent magnetic
field, (2) has two compartments, A and B, (3) has a given starting
condition that all parts have a uniform temperature of 270 degrees Kelvin,
(4) spontaneously moves heat from compartment A to compartment B  and (5)
thus either does useful work during the transfer process (e.g. electrical)
and/or makes it possible to use the temperature difference to do useful
work while transferring or conducting the heat from compartment B back to
compartment A.   The looping of heat back to compartment A closes the
energy loop and creates "perpetual motion".  If a true physical embodiment
of (1) through (4) can exist then the second law of thermodynamics is no
longer a law; it then needs qualifications or restrictions in scope.

It is maybe more accurate to say that such a system would actually fall
totally outside the realm of thermodynamics as normally defined, in that it
violates what is commonly called the "zeroth law of thermodynamics".  This
"law" is actually a definition upon which the second law is based, namely:
"Two systems which are equal in temperature with a third are equal in
temperature with each other."  This definition is based on the idea that
two systems are equal in temperature if no change in property occurs when
they are in thermal contact.  This is the characteristic that validates use
of mercury  thermometers, for example.  If a thermometer does not change
its physical properties when moved from one compartment to another, then
the two compartments must have the same temperature.  Inherently assumed in
this concept is the notion that a closed isolated system at a uniform
temperature can not self modify its own physical properties.  If the
temperature of such a compartment is verified to be the same as a
thermometer by the lack of change of state of the thermometer, and the
thermometer is moved to another similar compartment to compare
temperatures, and the temperature is found equal, it can only be said the
first and second compartments are the same temperature if it is known that
the first compartment can not spontaneously change its temperature in the
interim.



          Compartment A
         ---------------
         |             |
         |             |
         | Resistor R  |  Hot (>270 K)
         |             |
         |             |
         ---------------
          ^     |     |
          |     |     |
         (e-)  Heat  (e-)
          |     |     |
          |     |     |
          |     v     v
         ---------------
         |             |
         |             |
         |  <--- (e-)  |  Cool (<270 K)
         |             |
         |             |
         ---------------
          Compartment B


       FIG. 2 - Block Diagram of System in Equilibrium

In the proposed system (see FIG. 2), compartment A contains a current
generating mechanism except for the resistive current loop, and any device
it may power, which is in compartment B.  Electrical connection is made
between the right side of compartment A to the right side of compartment B,
and similarly on the left side.  The compartments are thermally connected.
Some of the heat of compartment A is converted to electrical energy which
is transferred to compartment B, the resistive circuit, where it does
useful work and thereby heats compartment B. Compartment A is spontaneously
cooled while compartment B is heated, all with no active components. The
waste heat from compartment B is allowed to flow back to A to maintain it's
heat so it can continue to generate power.

If a compartment A is defined which can perpetually maintain a potential
difference and a corresponding current flow, however small, then the
objectives have been achieved.


THERMAL ELECTROMAGNETIC DRIFT

In a uniform magnetic field coming out of the page, thermal positive ions
(or holes) will tend to move in a clockwise circle, negative ions will tend
to move in a counterclockwise circle.  If the magnetic field is
non-uniform, a gradient with the field B stronger at the bottom of the page
than at the top, then drift occurs.  Positive ions (or holes) will tend to
drift to the right, negative ions to the left.  The drift is caused by the
fact that the cyclotron radius is smaller on average on the bottom portion
of the loop.  Thus positive particles move in long arcs to the right and
short arcs to the left, for example.  Electrons move in long arcs to the
left and short arcs to the right.  Assume that the x axis is left to right,
the y axis bottom to top of page, and the z axis is increasing out of page
toward the reader (see FIG. 3).

That thermally energized drift occurs implies that in the proposed magnetic
gradient, dB/dy, the energy from ambient heat can be used to form an
electrostatic gradient, negative to the left and positive to the right.
With a completed circuit, the configuration takes thermal energy from ions
in the magnetic field gradient and converts it to current. If the thermally
drifting ions have bounds to their motion to the left and right , then a
field E should be formed in the X axis due to the accumulation of charged
particles at the boundaries.

In the proposed cell, the magnitude of B decreases linearly with an
increase in y and is constant at all z, and x, for a given y.  The
direction cosines of B are constant at (0,0,1).  For this reason it seems
sufficient to use a two dimensional (2D) model to analyze the effect.

In a uniform magnetic field coming out of the page, thermal positive ions
will tend to rotate in a clockwise circle.  If the field is stronger at the
bottom of the page (decreasing B in y direction) the path, as viewed in the
x,y plane of the paper, might look something like the path shown in FIG. 3.



      |----------------- Td --------------->|

   -->o                                     o-->
              o                    o
                  o           o                  B smaller

                        o

                     o      o
                                            |
                    o        o              |
                                          dB/dy
                     o     o                |
                        o                   V
                                                 B larger


    FIG. 3 - Motion of positive particle in graduated B field.


Electrons would tend to drift in the opposite or left-wise direction.  It
appears that any motion in the z axis would be irrelevant to these
dynamics.  Also, it seems that, if there is any resistance at the left or
right boundaries, or if they are closed, as the top and bottom are assumed
to be, then a right to left electrostatic gradient will form.  An effect
called ExB drift will then increase pressure toward the top of the cell,
which will quickly reach equilibrium, due to the cell boundaries at top and
bottom.  It is assumed the top and bottom cell boundaries do not destroy or
neutralize the charge, but do confine it within the cell.  If resistance at
the right and left boundaries is partial, then a net current, consisting of
the combination of positive flow to right and negative flow to the left,
should occur.  In the proposed thermal electromagnetic drift, particles of
different charge move in opposite directions.  The apparent current moves
in one direction.

The x axis drifting effect due to repeated regular displacements Td at the
cyclotronic frequency is called here thermal electromagnetic drift (TED).
A device using the TED effect is called a TED device (or TEDD).

Note that in practice Td would be very small in relation to the cyclotronic
radius,  but the drift not so small due to the fast cyclotron frequency.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 21 09:30:51 1997
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From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: TED - Part 3 of 3
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DESIGNS FOR SCALING UP ELECTRIC CURRENT GENERATION

FIG. 5 is a drawing of a side view cross section, z axis top to bottom, of
a device using two magnets, M1 and M2, where chamber X meets the above
description from the viewer's perspective (he is at the bottom looking up,)
and chamber Y reverses those flows, etc.


        --------------------
"Top    | N      M1      S |
of      --------------------      "Bottom of page"
page"   ---------  ---------
        |   X   |  |   Y   |       Electrons flow out of page in X
        ---------  ---------       and into page in Y
        --------------------
        | S      M2      N |
        --------------------


          8^)  <--------- Viewer

             FIG. 5


Note that the B field can be further shaped to control dB/dy by contouring
the magnets or by ferrous material insertion.  There is no limit to the
length of the x axis in the configuration shown in FIG. 5.

Looking at FIG. 6, X might be a cross section of two sides of a TEDD shaped
like a ring.

        --------------------        --------------------
        | N      M1      S |        | S      M1      N |
        --------------------        --------------------
                   ---------        ---------
                   |   X   |        |   X   |
                   ---------        ---------
        --------------------        --------------------
        | S      M2      N |        | N      M2      S |
        --------------------        --------------------

                        FIG. 6

The chamber could be placed to the outside of the ring, as with Y in FIG.
7, or some combination of the two.

        --------------------        --------------------
        | N      M1      S |        | S      M1      N |
        --------------------        --------------------
        ---------                              ---------
        |   Y   |                              |   Y   |
        ---------                              ---------
        --------------------        --------------------
        | S      M2      N |        | N      M2      S |
        --------------------        --------------------


                          FIG. 7


A device might be formed into a coil, as shown in FIG. 8.


        --------------------
        | N      M1      S |
        --------------------
        ---------  ---------
        |   X   |  |   Y   |
        ---------  ---------
        --------------------
        | S      M2      N |
        --------------------
        ---------  ---------
        |   Q   |  |   R   |
        ---------  ---------
        --------------------
        | N      M1      S |
        --------------------
        ---------  ---------
        |   X   |  |   Y   |
        ---------  ---------
        --------------------
        | S      M2      N |
        --------------------
        ---------  ---------
        |   Q   |  |   R   |
        ---------  ---------
           ... etc.


               FIG. 8


A TEDD can be built by cutting or etching a chip into a spiral
configuration where the magnetic field diminishes radially, as in FIG. 9.
Multiple chips can be stacked in three dimensions, the outer end of the
spiral of one level attached to the inner end of the next level.



        |   S    |
         \      /
          \    /
           \  /
            \/
        ==========     <------- Spiral chip layers
        ----------
        |   N    |
        |        |

          FIG. 9



Note that the primary  objective of the TEDDs in Figures 5 through 9 is
electric current generation and not heat. In this case lateral heat flow
between opposite conducting chambers X and Y is good, as it helps maintain
the thermal energy of the TED.  This can be used to advantage to form
layered chip technology, as in FIG 10, can be made using ferrous prisms,
designated M in FIG 10, between semiconductor layers to shape the magnetic
field to  achieve the gradient dB/dy.  Electrons flow into page in chambers
X and out of page in chambers (semiconductors) Y.  Each layer can thus be
made from a single chip where the x' and Y's are all one continuous piece
of semiconductor cut or etched into folds that serpentine back and forth
across the chip, and separated by supporting and insulating material.  The
substrate, if any, would have to be non-conductive.


        |                       |
        |          S            |
        -------------------------
        M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M
         XY XY XY XY XY XY XY XY
        M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M
         XY XY XY XY XY XY XY XY
        M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M
         XY XY XY XY XY XY XY XY
        M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M
         XY XY XY XY XY XY XY XY
        M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M  M
        -------------------------
        |          N            |
        |                       |



               FIG. 10




A PRELIMINARY TEST OF N-TYPE SILICON

A solar cell was obtained that was made up of many pieces of probably
surplus silicon chip fragment tiled together in a protective plastic box
with dimensions about 45x75x5 mm.  Some of the tiles had only parallel
conductive strips deposited on their surfaces.  They were affixed to a
metal foil on the bottom and had strips of foil laid over their tops to
collect the current. A 5x12 mm trapezoidal chip fragment was removed that
had only 3 parallel metal strips on the top.  The parallel metal strips
were about 2.5 mm apart and ran diagonally across the chip.  The chip had a
lacework of metal grid lines deposited on its back side.  The potential
front to back under a fluorescent light was 23 mV.

Two pieces of No.40 copper wire were soldered to the outer most metal
strips on the top of the chip.  The leads were then soldered back onto the
original lugs in the protective  plastic package from which the much larger
composite cell had been removed .  Resistance was 26.7 ohms in the dark.
Holding it up to the light made the resistance drop to under 25 ohms.  The
light exposed side of the chip was negative, indicating an n-type silicon
surface layer.

The DMM was then set to a 200 mV range. A 35 MGo magnet was then moved
about the chip. There was no sign of voltage.  There was no response on the
micro-amp scale either.  When set to measure resistance, however, the
motion of the magnet was clearly sensed by the meter, i.e. the change in
sensed current due to moving flux, but there was no sustained change in
resistance measured when no element was in motion.

A much more sensitive meter is needed.

A PRELIMINARY CHECK ON COPPER FOR A TED EFFECT

In an attempt to determine if easily measurable thermal electromagnetic
drift (TED) occurs in copper wires the following configuration was tried:


        |        |
        |        |
        |        |
        |        |     0.5" radius x 5" long steel plumb bob
        |        |     with conical tip on 45 deg. slope
        |   S    |
         \      /
        oo\    /oo
        ooo\  /ooo
        oooo\/oooo
        oooooooooo     <------- Coil of insulated wire, about 100 turns
        ----------              (Telephone cross connect wire)
        |   N    |
        |        |
        |        |
        |        |
        |        |    1x1x1.5"  35 MGO magnet
        |   S    |
        ----------

Coil resistance was 0.7 ohms.  No voltage or current was detected.



AN EXPERIMENT WITH SOME CLUES?

An attempt was being made to measure a rotating magnetic field by using a
FET, due to the gate's effect being due to potential:


  Rotating Flux (moving toward reader, out of page)
      .
      .     S----------------------
      .     |
     =====G-+  FET probe
      .     |
      .     D-----------------------

S  - source
D  - drain
G  - gate
==  - active area of probe
..  - flux line rotating toward reader, out of page


A dual gate MOSFET, NTE455, was tried, with the two gates tied together to
make a probe tip.  It was a very sensitive probe.  It picked up fluorescent
bulb at about 2 feet, and was very good at sensing ambient noise. It went
totally dead when a magnet was initially brought near it.  As viewed on an
oscilloscope the background noise was flat lined, the MOSFET had zero
conductivity. When the magnet was removed the MOSFET conducted and showed
ambient noise again.  With a magnet near it, but not too close, the two
were moved toward a fluorescent bulb and the MOSFET eventually picked up
the signal, but the proximity of the magnet set a threshold for the
distance it would start sensing.  The MOSFET could make a gauss meter in an
appropriate circuit.

Since it is nearly impossible to have no gradient dB/dx or DB/dy, it is
desirable to investigate this phenomenon a little further.  The effect may
be a Hall type effect, a TED type effect, or some other semiconductor
related effect.


CONCLUSION

It seems it may be very worthwhile to test appropriate semiconducting
material,  in particular very pure Ge doped with P, but also others like Si
doped with P, for the TED effect, using very accurate DC meters.  It may
also be useful to check GaAs and other semiconductors as well.  Meters
accurate to the uV might be built using circuits similar to those used in
PH meters. (See the McGraw Hill Encyclopedia of Electronic Circuits for
example.)  One possible source of materials for a quick check are Hall
effect devices.  It is simply necessary to place the semiconductor in a
magnetic field with an appropriate gradient as spelled out above, and
measure any persistent current whatsoever.  A very sensitive voltmeter or
ammeter is required.

It is of further interest to study EM radiation from semiconductors with
free thermal electrons.  Such electrons should radiate.  If compartment B
radiates in a manner that is channeled to and absorbed by compartment A,
and there is a lack of symmetry, ie. the lack of magnetic field in
compartment A prevents radiating energy back toward compartment B until a
higher temperature is reached, allowing black body radiation to match, then
the objective of demonstrating the incompatibility of the second law with
one (or more) laws of electromagnetism is achieved.

Also of further interest to study is the use of thermopiles (tall broad
stack of thermocouple junctions) for compartment B in order to use the
junctions as ratchets for the TED effect.  This configuration is expected
to be effective due to the low voltage generated across the junctions. The
temperature gradient achieved from "compartment A waste heat" can then be
used to assist in maintaining the favorable potential gradient.

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 21 09:30:54 1997
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From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: TED - Part 2 of 3
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A REVERSE ENTROPY DEVICE

It is proposed that a TED device can be achieved in an actual n-type
lattice. Consider FIG. 4:


         B ~= 0.5 T out of page

        -----------------------
        |                     |
        |                     |
        |                     |
        |      n-type         |        |
        |      lattice        |        |
        |                     |      dB/dy = -0.1 T / cm
        |  (-)          (+)   |        |
        |                     |        V
        |                     |
        -----------------------

            Small E ------>

     <------ Hot electron TED direction

     Cool electron drift in E field --->

               FIG. 4


The leftward TED induced by dB/dy creates a small negative charge to the
left, leaving a small positive charge to the right.  This creates an
electrostatic field E across the lattice, but reaches an equilibrium, with
hot electrons drifting to the left, due to TED, at the same rate as cool
electrons drift to the right, due to E.  However, this tendency for hot
electrons to drift left and cool electrons to drift right should create a
higher temperature to the left.

To disprove the second law it is only necessary to show that a TEDD can
generate whatsoever either any potential or any thermal gradient across a
TED, no matter how small the effect.  However, the fundamental question
regarding practical use or even an experimental test is the question of
whether TED cells can be put in series, or alternatively made long, in
order to increase the total electrostatic potential achievable at a given
temperature.  The magnetic field does not add energy to the ions. The
kinetic energy of the ions is there initially only in the form of heat.
The magnetic field gradient only serves to organize things.  Since 1 eV =
11,600 deg. K, at 270 K the average ion should have a kinetic energy of
about 0.0233 eV.  This means that a maximum cell potential is about 0.023 V
if the full kinetic energy of the average ion is to be sapped before
reaching the cell boundaries in the course of overcoming a reverse field
gradient E (not likely!).  This cell operating voltage of 0.0233 V
establishes a minimum of 26 cells that must work in series at 270 K to
produce a meaningful potential of about 0.6 V to do electrolysis, for
example. In practice it should be a much larger number.

Of interest is the fact that faster moving ions will have a large Td and
thus  drift faster than slow ones. This implies that a thermal gradient
might be established. It should be coldest in the middle of the cell,
warmest near the right and left boundaries in a cell with the magnetic
gradient bottom to top as in our examples.  However, in a cell with both
positive and negative ions flowing, the thermal gradient tends to balance
except at the cell boundaries.  This implies that the ions can move toward
the cell boundaries in small increments.  That is to say the following
stage-wise process would be repeated: (1) the drift causes motion against
the field gradient and a loss of kinetic energy. (2) collisions with
impurities or the lattice phonons cause, on average, a restoration of
kinetic energy (3) the drift repeats.  In other words, fast moving (hot)
particles tend to drift in their own direction faster than slow (cold) ones
tend to fall back.

The above seems to imply that, provided the heat is continually
replenished, say from the top side of the cell via a heat conduit from
compartment B, that large electrostatic potentials, like 0.6 V, can be
achieved by making the TED cells sufficiently long or by placing a
sufficient number in series, provided there is a viable means of charge
exchange at the right and left boundaries.

It appears a good material for a test may be germanium doped with group V
elements, like phosphorous or arsenic, an n-type germanium.  A perfect
germanium crystal is transparent to free electrons, but the electron acts
as if it has mass m*, where m* ~= m/10. [see Hall, "Solid State Physics"]
The problem is in achieving high enough purity to approximate "perfect".
The dopants trap free electrons with a binding energy of about -0.01 eV,
which is less than the average thermal kinetic energy of about 0.026 eV, so
many of the impurity sites will be ionized, providing the free electrons.
The ground state wave function for the dopant bound electrons has a radius
of about 50 Angstroms, which accounts for the low energy binding.

It is of interest that cyclotron resonance is used to determine m*
experimentally.  The electrons, of apparent mass m*, move in circular
orbits at an angular frequency of f = (e)(B)/(m*), independent of their
energy, and thus can absorb EM radiation at frequency f.  At 1 tesla we get
f to be approximately 10^12 s^-1.  One of the problems in measuring
cyclotron resonance, and a possible problem to drift detection, is getting
the electrons to complete a few orbits on average before disruption by
impurities or thermal vibrations.  For this reason extremely pure material
is used at liquid He temperatures to determine m*. For our purposes, which
does not require resonance, it does not seem like these extreme measures
are necessary.  The loops would in effect be borken into many small
increments, but the average effect should be the same.

It is also of interest that holes can be used as well as electrons for
determining m*, and that it is possible to use a mixture of n and p type
dopants to achieve electron migration to the left and hole migration to the
right  when the B gradient is vertical as in our example (i.e. dB/dx = 0,
dB/dy = -|ky|, dB/dz=0).

Since there are no moving parts, and the proposed TEDD can do useful work
in a system where heat is initially totally uniform, it appears to be a
successful attack on the second law. The actual current generated may be so
small as to require a SQUIB or Josephson junction type device to detect it,
but the demonstration of the perpetual generating of a current while
cooling a device below ambient would still be a very useful experiment from
a theoretical standpoint.


A RATCHET MECHANISM

The field E  generated by charge accumulation at x axis ends of the cell is
backwards, i.e. contrary to the current flow.  The negative side is the
left side towards which electrons migrate.  It is the E that thwarts the
migration.  Keeping up the current flow is a matter of keeping the
resistance of the loop low to avoid much of an E.  E and the ion speeds,
and diversion due to collisions, are the primary things that limit the
current flow.  Despite drift speed limitations, the right-left drift should
be finite and continue indefinitely.

The electrons should leave the left side of the compartment "hot", i.e.
under pressure and with relatively high average speed.  Their energy is
spent in the resistive loop, heating it, and they return on the right side
cool.  This is ignoring electrode work functions, etc. However, there is
some hope that if the idea is sound then an experiment could be successful
because the right to left electrostatic gradient is additive.  Therefore,
many such cells or an arbitrarily long cell can be strung together to
achieve any desired potential.  The key to success then  is simply
obtaining a medium that maintains a supply of ions, electrons or holes,
capable of cyclotronic drift at ambient temperatures.  The proposed
semiconductor medium should fulfill that role nicely.

As mentioned earlier, the dopant (e.g. P) atoms tend to trap electrons with
a binding energy of about -0.01 eV, which is less than the average thermal
kinetic energy of about 0.023 eV for a 270 deg. kelvin operating
environment for the germanium crystal lattice.  Given no resistance, and
thus no potential barrier, significant and measurable currents might be
detected from a TEDD cell at an operating B of about 0.5 T and dB/dy of
about 0.1 T and dopant density of about 10^22 atoms/m^2.

Resistance in the crystal lattice is mostly in the form of heat due to
collisions with lattice atoms, and interactions with dopants and
impurities. However, in the face of a building reverse electrostatic field
barrier built due to resistance to electron flow, the electron interaction
with the dopant might provide a ratchet mechanism to permit the gradual
overcoming of a potential barrier.  As an electron drifts against a
potential field, it loses kinetic energy, meaning it cools.  This makes the
cool electron susceptible to recapture by a dopant atom, especially after
the electron cools to below the 0.01 eV binding energy with the dopant.
Once captured, the electron is hung on a notch of the ratchet mechanism.
It will not get out, nor move backwards, until it has absorbed sufficient
thermal energy from the dopant atom and surrounding lattice, etc., to
overcome the -0.01 eV well.  When it does get out, it then again drifts
forward until captured again.  If the electron should sufficiently slow,
due to Brownian motion, or motion mostly in the z axis, etc., it can drift
backwards in a direction with the E field.  However, it then should pick up
kinetic energy in the xy plane from that backward movement with the E
field, and then tend to be much more likely to drift to the left, and to
drift left at an increasingly higher rate.  The ratchet mechanism should be
very fine toothed, in that even in the purest crystals and lowest operating
temperatures only a few orbits an be achieved on average. The ratchet tooth
height of about 1/2 the average kinetic energy seems about ideal.

The ratchet mechanism greatly reduces the current due to the time delay
required for the electrons to pick up the required thermal energy while
pinned to the dopant atoms.  However, it does permit movement of the drift
current against a potential barrier, and thus permits useful work to be
done at the expense of cooling the crystal lattice.


CURRENT CALCULATION WITH R AND E ASSUMED TO BE ZERO

Let's assume we can achieve operation in an average of a 0.5 T field with a
dB/dy magnetic field gradient of -0.1 T/cm, and a drift electron density of
Nd = 10^22/m^3.  Assume M* to be about Me/10 = 0.91 10^-31 kg.  Elementary
charge e = 1.6x10^-19 C.  We get the angular frequency Wc = (e)(B)/m* =
(1.6x10^-19 C)(0.5 T)/(0.91 10^-31 kg) = 1.76x10^12 rad s^-1, or a
frequency:

   f = 1.4x10^11 sec^-1.

Assume average thermal energy 270 deg. kelvin. At 11,600 deg. K/eV that's
0.023 eV.  At 1.6x10^-19 J/eV we have an average free electron energy of
3.7x10^-21 J.

Assuming we can apply E = 0.5(M*)(Vxyz^2), we have:

   3.7x10^-21 k*m^2/s^2 = 0.5(0.91 10^-31 kg)(Vxyz^2)

   Vxyz = 2.85x10^5 m/s

However, 2/3 of v should be in the xy plane and 1/3 in the z plane on
average, so we get an xy plane velocity of:

   Vxy = v = 1.9x10^5 m/s

Given a time of 1/f = 1/(1.4x10^11 sec^-1) = 7.14x10^-12 sec, this give an
orbital circumference of v/f = (1.9x10^5 m/s)(7.14x10^-12 sec) = 1.36x10^-6
m.  This gives an orbital diameter of:

   Do = 4.33x10^-7 m

Given that dB/dy = -0.1 T/cm = -10 T/m, we have delta B = (-10
T/m)(4.33x10^-7 m) = -4.33x10^-6 T across the range of the loop.  This
means the bottom radius averages roughly about (0.5)(4.33x10^-6 T)/(0.5 T)
= 4.33x10^-6 times the top radius in the loop, giving a Td on the x axis
of:

   Td = (4.33x10^-6)(4.33x10^-7 m) = 1.86x10^-12 m.

Note that the factor 0.5 is used in order to average the B across the top
loop, and to similarly average B over the bottom loop.

Given a repetition rate of f = 1.4x10^11 sec^-1 we have a drift rate:

   Vd = (Td)(f) = (1.86x10^-12 m)(1.4x10^11 sec^-1) = 1.6 m/s.

Using Nd = 10^22 m^-3 we get a current density:

   J =  (Vd)(Nd)/(6x10^18 electrons/s/ampere)
     = (1.6 m/s)(10^22 m^-3)/(6x10^18 electrons/s/ampere)
     = 2660 amperes/m^2.

Assuming a conductor of 10^-3 m on a side, or 10^-6 m^2 cross section, we
should get a current of 2.66 mA, assuming no resistance.


Checking orbital radius with formula:

Ro = (m*)(v)/((q)(B)) = (0.91 10^-31 kg)(1.9x10^5 m/s)/((1.6x10^-19 C)(0.5 T))

Ro = 2.16x10^-7 m

Ro = Do/2 = (4.33x10^-7 m)/2 = 2.165x10^-7  check

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 21 10:52:08 1997
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First off, I'd like to apologise about being slightly off topic, but I'd
like to refer those who are interested in my time travel project to my
website, http://members.tripod.com/~jtooker/index-2.html . I'm going to be
unveiling a prototype of my time machine at Con-Version XIV sf convention.
Please refer to the site for more details.
Many thanx to everyone else for their patience! :) It's appreciated!
John


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 21 11:30:44 1997
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From: tim.vaughan@trex.ccc-infonet.edu (Tim Vaughan)
Subject: Good Magnet Source
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:29:27 GMT
Message-Id: <864239367@trex.ccc-infonet.edu>
Organization: Yosemite Community College District
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Using the online Thomas Register 
< http://noframes.thomasregister.com > ,
I found what looks like a handy supplier of all kinds
of permanent magnets.

Checkout < www.magnetsales.com >.

They have a great online that catalog that is
is easy to use.

They may be cheaper than Edmond Scientific for
large numbers of magnets.

Tim
( tv@juno.com )


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 21 13:29:22 1997
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:26:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Comments from Weird Science (fwd)
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see below

=2E....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,...........................=
=2E.
William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623
EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/
Seattle, WA 98117  billb@eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 07:20:29 -0700
From: Arlen <arlenbass@AOL.COM>
To: billb@eskimo.com
Subject: Comments from Weird Science

--- category ---
ok

--- comments ---
\TROMBLY\  MAY 16, 1997   FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE, GLOBAL PEACE PROJECT,addre=
ssing OUR GLOBAL ENVIRONMENTAL EMERGENCY, PROBLEMS AND SOLUTIONSContact:  D=
avid Crockett Williams, Santa Barbara Coordinator, 805-961-2701Addressing O=
ur Global Environmental Emergency which threatens all Life on Earth, Adam T=
rombly is giving his first radio interview in three years on this Sunday, M=
ay 18th, from 9PM to midnight, locally on KTMS and nationally via Jeff Rens=
e's syndicated radio show which can be accessed with sound card by internet=
 at his web page <www.endoftheline.com>.  Trombly is a physicist and climat=
ologist at The Institute for Advanced Studies in Aspen, Colorado, which he =
founded with Buckminster Fuller.  Adam Trombly is an internationally acknow=
ledged expert in the fields of Physics, Atmospheric Dynamics, Geophysics, R=
otating and Resonating Electromagnetic Systems, and Environmental Global Mo=
deling.  Taking the advice of his friend and mentor, R. Buckminster Fuller,=
 Adam has maintained a "synergistic, global view" within a multi-disciplina=
ry scientific background.  From this perspective Adam offers unique insight=
s into the changes humankind has affected on our environment, and the adjus=
tments our future requires of us now.With other physicists at NASA, by the =
late 1970's, Trombly became aware of what is now known as the zero-point en=
ergy field from anomalous planetary energy measurements.  While then consid=
ering the potential of tapping this energy field, inherent in three dimensi=
onal space itself, with a new alternative zero-point energy technology, he =
became aware of the "n-Machine" experiments done in Santa Barbara by Bruce =
DePalma in 1979. Recognizing that this was a zero-point device, he applied =
himself to the principle and shortly developed an improved configuration ca=
lled the "closed path homopolar generator" and disclosed full details in an=
 international patent which has inspired subsequent proof-of-concept around=
 the world.  Trombly's name, along with Bruce DePalma, Edgar Mitchell, and =
George Ainsworth-Land, appeared in a July 1981 Satellite News article predi=
cting use of this generator in satellites.  In 1985, Dr. Yonas, the Chief S=
cientist for the Strategic Defense Initiative, testified in US Congressiona=
l budget hearings that this technology (the "homopolar" generator as Michae=
l Faraday called it in 1831) was a "critical technology" for the Strategic =
Defense Initiative ("Star Wars" weapons).  In subsequent years evidence ind=
icates that this technology is in place in orbiting "rail gun" military sat=
ellites.  Trombly for some time was under a Federal Court gag order not to =
talk about this technology after he found it under covert development for U=
S submarine propulsion.  Risking and surviving assasination attempts to shu=
t him up, Adam has courageously decided (after several years hermetic lifes=
tyle) to come once again to the forefront of public presentation of informa=
tion regarding the seriousness of our global environmental crisis and how t=
his new technology can help save our planet.We are calling for the immediat=
e establishment of a GLOBAL ENVIRONMENTAL EMERGENCY RESPONSE PLAN AND TEAM =
to implement solutions to this crisis. Adam has adjusted his schedule to co=
me to Santa Barbara to take part in our June 1 briefing for the science adv=
isor to His Holiness Dalai Lama, and has been invited to be one of the key =
participants in the Public Briefing on these matters June 2, 7PM, at UCSB C=
hem 1179, along with Brian O'Leary, former science & energy policy advisor =
to four US Presidential candidates and author of a book about these zero-po=
int "free energy technologies" called "Miracle in The Void", and with inves=
tigative journalist Jeane Manning, author of "The Coming Energy Revolution"=
=2EFor more details check out websites for Trombly at <www.projectearth.com=
>, Bruce DePalma at <www.depalma.org.nz>, & O'Leary <www.maui.net./~kamapua=
a>The United States, through a 1952 Secrecy Order obtained under the Freedo=
m of Information Act, has been suppressing the public development of this c=
ritical technology in the US.  However, Japan is putting millions of dollar=
s into its development and negotiations are now under way, if the US policy=
 doesn't change, to build a $2.5 billion manufacturing plant in Germany to =
produce a state-of-the-art home unit to allow individual homes to disconnec=
t from utility power grids.  Larger devices are also possible such as ones =
to replace the electricity output of the three coal-fired electric power pl=
ants in the Four Corners area which reportedly produce more acid rain pollu=
tions than the top five US cities combined, and whose coal strip-mining is =
the root of the genocidal US policy of the continuing forced removal of the=
 native American people on Arizona'a Black Mesa where Big Mountain is locat=
ed.  --RAA29329.864000851/coyote.rain.org--=20

--- money ---
yes donate 5.00

--- money2 ---
$10.00

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 21 14:26:12 1997
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Message-ID: <3382954E.BFADBF4C@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:55:18 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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John Logajan wrote:
> 
> Greg Watson wrote:
> > Sort of like a circular "Tomi" device.  Up and down, round and round.
> > Not too elegant, but it works.  Don't get hung up on the way a  "Tomi"
> > works (or doesn't work), this is different.
> 
> Speaking of the Tomi, the ANE Newsletter that was bundled with the most
> recent IE magazine has a front page analysis of the Tomi -- these Academy
> for New Energy guys (ANE) couldn't get the thing to work.
> 
>  - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -

Hi John,

I, like many others spend quite a lot of time on the "Tomi" device.

I couldn't get it to work either.  But I didn't give up there and I
spent several more days (weeks) doing intensive simulation of the Tomi
device on QField.  I stopped when I could demonstrate to me and anyone
else why it couldn't work.

Every failure is a golden opportunity to learn.  Failures should not
just be chucked into the nearest rubbish bin and forgotten. 
Investigate, learn, and listen to what mother nature is teaching, then
think outside the square.  And never give up until you KNOW why it
doesn't work and why you got it wrong!  Experience, the best teacher


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 21 14:28:21 1997
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To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: harti@bbtt.de (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: How many hours ?
Date: Wed, 21 May 97  23:24:11 +0200
Message-Id: <97052123241108@odin>
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Hi Greg,

just curious:

How many hours did your device already run continiously now ?

Maybe you can post an update on this ?

Good luck for building the new toy thing...


Regards, STefan.
--
Hartmann Multimedia Service
Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
http://www.harti.com    Webmaster of:
www.detours.de    www.overunity.de   www.berlin-city.com
email: harti@harti.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 21 14:31:12 1997
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Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:43:23 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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Scott Little wrote:
> 
> At 01:25 PM 5/21/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote:
> 
> >Yes.  Well not run but roll by itself.
> 
> Maybe I'm being hard-headed here, Greg, but that statement is not clear and
> seems a bit ambiguous.
> 
> Just for the record could you please answer yes/no to the following:
> 
> Does the simple O-U toy built from your own plans work in such as manner as
> to create motion that continues unabated for many hours once started?
> 
> Thanks.

Hi Scott,

In a simple single word answer (for the record) ....... YES!

It rolls and rolls, around and around, up and down until you stop it
(assuming the adjustments are in the middle of their ramge).  With
simple construction things can move.  I have had a SMOT (Simple Magnetic
OU Toy) rolling around and around for at best 3 hours and 27 minutes, at
worst it even will not make it up and over one ramp!  I am working on
the design of the ramps and the way the magnet assys are adjusted to try
to eliminate as much variation and widen out any narrow margins.

Several others can tell you that once adjusted, the Phase two devices
(multi linked straight ramps) will work every time, but the adjustments
are tricky.

I have never seen anything which would cause me to believe that the
magnets are loosing strength during this process.

The normal cause of a stoppage is for the spacing of the magnet assys at
the top of the ramp to close or alter closer to the track and cause a
hang or the ball sucked to one side.  This is I believe because I retain
the magnet assys with straight pins pushed into  balse.  Makes for easy
adjustment.  But the attractive forces between the magnets are greatest
at the top of the ramp as the ball starts to exit and after several
thousand passes, the magnets only have to move approx 0.25mm and things
change.

When you build a unit you will understand that my purpose with the SMOT
is to prove mag ou is possible.  Not to build a lab unit or anything
that could work for a really long time.

I am sure others will come up with better systems in time.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 21 14:36:25 1997
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Message-ID: <33836A3F.614B2360@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 07:03:51 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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Hi All,

In setting up the SMOT (Simple Magnetic Ou Toy) discussion and
construction project, I would request any of my original constructor
group to send me, via attachments, photos of the ramps you have
constructed.  If you have achieved multi ramps so much the better.

You can do this three ways :

 1) Take a photo and have in scanned into a jpeg file on a floppy.

 2) Take a digital photo and convert it to jpeg.

 3) Take your ramp to a computer shop with a digital camera and do step
2.

The photos and constructors will be shown on the web sites hosting this
project.

I appreciate your efforts, then, now and in the future.


Thanks in advance,

Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 21 15:00:46 1997
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Message-ID: <33837014.2835D0C7@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 07:28:44 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> At 3:19 PM 5/21/97, Greg Watson wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> >My Simple Magnetic Ou Toy is a modification of the Hartman patent
> >(4,215,330) using multi curved ramps.  You are correct, it does work!
> >Building and adjusting the magnetic contours is tricky.  The ramp
> >designs I will present, make it easy to develop the skill necessary to
> >master the adjustments.
> >
> [snip]
> 
> It seems like plastic or even glass tubing should be fairly easy to adjust.
> Is there some reason rails are necessary?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

Hi Horace,

Tubing was my first choice, but I quickly found that it allows the ball
to slop sideways and not travel on the "Neutral Line".  The side to side
attractive magnetic forces are much greater than the up the ramp forces
and it is critical for the ball to be restrained from ANY side ways
movement, but be allowed unrestricted up the ramp movement.  The rails
came out as the best solution.

Even with rails, unbalanced side forces can increase frictional losses
very quickly and reduce up the ramp energy gain.  Like all machines, you
just got to KNOW now to make the stupid thing (sorry mother nature)
work.

Regards,
Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 21 15:53:18 1997
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Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:20:20 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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Stefan Hartmann wrote:
> 
> Hi Greg,
> 
> just curious:
> 
> How many hours did your device already run continiously now ?

1) The SMOT (Simple Magnetic Ou Toy) achieved approx 3.5 hours.

2) The RMOD (Rotary Magnetic Ou Device, the one I am patenting) ran for
just on 4 days before it got tired (Not the magnets, just the physical
construction).  I have stopped it now and I am building a plexi-glass
unit.  "See NO Wires".

> Maybe you can post an update on this ?

See above.

> Good luck for building the new toy thing...
> 
> Regards, STefan.

Best regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 21 18:03:06 1997
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Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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At 06:54 21.05.1997 GMT, Newman-l wrote:
>From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
>Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:24:15 +0930
>Subject: Re: Two Coil Experiment
>Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
>
>Newman-l wrote:
>>=20
>> From: Greg East <gmeast@pacbell.net>
>> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:29:55 -0700
>> Subject: Re: Two Coil Experiment
>>=20
>> Hi all,
>>=20
>> Every once in a while I'll go to Newman's book for some refresher and
>> some inspiration.  I'll also review his video.  This time I was
>> reviewing his Two Coil Experiment demonstrated in the video.  After
>> viewing, I decided to run it again for myself (I had done it once
>> before), but this time I decided to use a different winding technique on
>> the big coil. =20

....rest deleted for traffic reasons..


>> All I wanted to do was share this little tidbit with the list.
>> Regards,
>>=20
>> Greg East
>
>Hi Greg,
>
>I am sorry to say that you are comparing apples and oranges.
>
>There are two energy figures when dealing with coils :
>
>1) Energy used to CREATE the field.
>
>2) Energy used to MAINTAIN the field.
>
>What you are measuring and what Joe Newman quotes in his book is the
>second MAINTENANCE energy.  The energy necessary to maintain the field
>is only related to the voltage and the DC resistance of the coil.  You
>are therefore right, increase the number of windings and the idle
>current goes DOWN, while the coil's magnetic field increases.
>
>HOWEVER, this has nothing to do with the amount of energy necessary to
>create the coil's magnetic field.  This energy goes UP as the number of
>windings increase.
>
>Nowhere, in the copies of Joe's book Evan sent me, is this FACT
>mentioned.
>
>Both Bob Shannon and I have taken this up here before.
>
>While designing for min maintenance current can be the goal for certain
>magnetic designs, this is not the case in a Newman motor.  The coils are
>continually being charged up.  Any analysis which only takes into
>account the maintanance current will give very wrong results.  A Newman
>motor is a dynamic device and therefore the energy used to ramp up the
>coil's fields must be accounted for properly.  Steady state analysis is
>not the way to do this.

Yes, that is very true  !
A Newman motor is a very dynamic and Non-Linear system.
The "charge-up time" is mostly much smaller or equals about tau=3DL/R.
As some commutator designs have also breaks in them the voltage is
applied to coil only at very short time intervals.
This way Newman can use high voltage without consuminmg much input power.
(the current does not build up fast enough to reach its end level)

Also due to the rotating magnet inside the coil the factor
i*dL/dt plays an important role and it need less energy to charge=20
up the coil.


>
>I am NOT saying that Joe's motors don't work.  I believe there is valid
>research to be done on some of the anomalies in his designs.
>


I am convinced from my own studies that the first big Nemwan motors are
overunity, but probably not the smaller ones.

Due to the high cost for all the coils and magnets and the low
output ratio (only a few watts) Newman motors are in its current state
pretty uninteresting when it comes to output/cost calculations.

That is probably also why no company yet=20
has put it into production.

We hope, that with Greg Watson=B4s new device or our upcoming
magnetic flux switch this could dramatically change, cause
they are easy and low cost to build and with the magnetic flux switch also
high power levels could be reached easily !


Regards, Stefan.
--
Hartmann Multimedia Service
Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
http://www.harti.com    Webmaster of:
www.detours.de    www.overunity.de   www.berlin-city.com
email: harti@harti.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 21 19:51:38 1997
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From: HLafonte@aol.com
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 22:32:11 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970521223211_-1331255632@emout01.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Physics help
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Hello,
    I have a physics problem that deals with two permanent magnets. The Two
magnets are in the repulsion mode. Friction and any resistance to movement
from aerodynamic drag are not to be calculated. The problem is, if one magnet
is moved at a rapid rate toward the other magnet, I need to know by using a
formula ( I have no math background to speek of, but I can learn one formula
I'm sure ) what takes place with respect to delay of movement between the
first magnet that is moved and the second at rest magnet. If the first magnet
is moved rapidly for one half inch for example, how long will it be before
the second magnet is moved one half inch? I see the problem dealing with over
coming the rest inerita of the second magnet and calculating a time to cover
the same distance as the first magnet. The magnetic field of the two magnets
would seem to " compress" for short period of time. This problem deals with a
overunity design I am working on. Any help would be appreciated, any
variables can be set by the person helping solve the problem ( type magnet,
strength, rate of movement of first magnet, ) note: The first magnet reverses
direction after one half inch. If more info is needed, please ask.
Thanks, Butch LaFonte

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 22 02:01:08 1997
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From: mindtech@om.com.au
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:43:16 +1000
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Thanks Horace for taking the time to post your concept. I have done a
printout and will have some interesting reading for the weekend. It's always
good to see more technical content on this list.

Peter Nielsen

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 22 10:13:38 1997
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---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    Addition to physics problem
Date:    97-05-22 13:04:41 EDT
From:    HLafonte
To:      newman-l@emachine.com

I left out some information when explaining the physics problem:
The second magnet is held in place by having a magnet in repulsion on it's
opposite side. The second magnet is " balanced " between the first magnet
which will be "jerked" and the third magnet that is fixed in place. The one
half inch movement of the first magnet can not be matched by the second
magnet in this configuration, but I am looking to find the time lapse between
the " jerking " of the first magnet (at different rates) and the second
(middle) magnet's completion of travel toward the fixed third magnet. The
movement can't be instantaneous there has to be a delay the way I see it, and
the faster the "jerk" the longer the delay.
Sorry, but I typed the first message very late a night, to late as you can
see. I know this is a complex problem, but it means a lot to my project.
Thanks, Butch

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 22 12:50:40 1997
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From: Keasy@aol.com
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:33:46 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970522153344_-1699752342@emout14.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, harti@bbtt.de
cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: How many hours ?
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Greg and all,
    At the risk (justified, I think) of being tedious, let me see if we all
understand what Greg says his devices will do:
    Once started, both the SMOT and RMOD will run on their own indefinitely
(3 hours to four days demonstrated)  and continuously WITHOUT EVER  ANY HUMAN
ANYWHERE NEAR THEM and without any additional electrical, magnetic, or other
energy input of any kind.  This precludes adjustments as the devices are
running to keep them aligned (or whatever reason).
    While I certainly hope the claim is true (that is mostly what this group
is all about), we all know many thousands, if not millions, of people have
tried to accomplish this over the past 100 years or so.  Further, the
commercial value of its natural extensions would almost certainly be in the
many billions, if not trillions, of dollars.  So I think a bit of healthy
skepticism is warranted.
                                                   Ken   Keasy@aol.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 22 14:48:29 1997
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Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:31:54 -0400
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Larry Wharton <wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Simple OU Device
Resent-Message-ID: <"bpCeb1.0.XB2.pkBXp"@mx2>
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In response to Rick Monteverde's question:
>Larry Wharton wrote:
>
>   >  This is the case of the Tesla motor (imagined
>   >  by Joe Newman to be his invention).
>
>Could you be more specific about which Tesla motor you're refering to?

I was referring to the 1888 Tesla patent #381,970 which is identical to Joe
Newman's machine.

>If it's organizing random heat into useable magnetic energy though, isn't
>that an apparent 2nd law violation, or do you think it will turn out to be
>just a sort of tricky heat pump after all?

Yes it would be a violation of the second law.  The device would not be a
heat pump because all the components are about the same temperature.  In
all  magnetic heat pumps there is a significant change in temperature
through the cycle.  I will look up the magnetic thermodynamic relations and
post them.  That should make the basis of the second law violation clearer.

Lawrence E. Wharton
NASA/GSFC code 913
Greenbelt MD 20771
(301) 286-3486  Email - wharton@climate.gsfc.nasa.gov


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 22 15:48:14 1997
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From: BBowyer744@aol.com
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:46:24 -0400 (EDT)
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Prototype
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   Hi!  I have been interested in time travel for a long time.  It has been
my dream to invent a time machine one day and witness famous events.  I went
to your site and it said you could send the scamatics and theory to anyone
interested.  I would really like to look over you're work.  Could you please
send me a copy?  Here's my address:
             Blake Bowyer
            1939 Mariner lane
             Woodbridge, Virginia
              22192
Thank you very much.
                                                     Blake

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 22 15:50:46 1997
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Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:01:16 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Barry Merriman wrote:
> 
> Greg Watson wrote:
> >
> 
> > 1) The SMOT (Simple Magnetic Ou Toy) achieved approx 3.5 hours.
> >
> 
> That seems extremely important. The major question is: could
> you restart it? 

Yes, many times.

> If not, that is fairly clear evidence that
> it exhausted some small amount of energy stored in the system,
> 
> Also, as a benchmark, if the magnets are not present and the ball
> is released from the highest point on the track ( how high is
> that?), how long will it stay in motion before coming to a full
> stop. This (plus knowing the release height) lets you calculate the
> rate of energy loss for the mechanical part of the system.

The max height is 12mm above the lowest point.

If released at the high point, the ball will roll down the exit slope
(approx 75 deg) to the entry of the next ramp and stop.  Look at the
patent 4,215,330.  Its all there, the patent shows the linked ramps but
not in a circle or the use of a curved ramp (my improvements).

> --
> Barry Merriman

Hi Barry,

I would suggest you look at the patent.  My improvements are in how the
mag fields are generated, how the fields are made adjustable, how to
link the ramps, how to build a curved ramp and how to link curved ramp
units.

Other than that, a study of the patent should provide all the basic
understanding of what I will present.

I don't claim to have invented the mag ramp, only improved it and made
it easier to build and get working.

You can view the patent at :

  http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4215330


Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 22 17:35:07 1997
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Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:17:40 -0800
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: How many hours ?
Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Greg,

You mention your "improvements" to 4215330 below.  Hope you aren't planning
to apply for a patent on all those.   At the very least I would expect a
severe problem in the "obviousness test" as applied to improvements over
and above the  information posted in public domain.   See a few relevent
postings below:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
At 8:01 AM 5/23/97, Greg Watson wrote:
[snip]
>
>Hi Barry,
>
>I would suggest you look at the patent.  My improvements are in how the
>mag fields are generated, how the fields are made adjustable, how to
>link the ramps, how to build a curved ramp and how to link curved ramp
>units.
>
>Other than that, a study of the patent should provide all the basic
>understanding of what I will present.
>
>I don't claim to have invented the mag ramp, only improved it and made
>it easier to build and get working.
>
>You can view the patent at :
>
>  http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?patent_number=4215330
>
>
>Regards,
> Greg
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 22:25:10 -0800
To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com,
newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Simple OU Device
Cc:
Bcc:
X-Attachments:
At 10:48 AM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote:
>Hi All,

>Just a short note to all those suggestions to use multi straight ramps or
>curved return tracks to close the loop.

>I have tried various schemes without success.

>What I have found is that with any angled scheme, the ball will not be
>able to stay on the "Neutral Line" of side to side attraction between the
>magnet assys and will loose energy because of the much larger side ways
>attractions very quickly.

>Seems angled schemes are doomed to fail. The ball must stay on the
>"Neutral Line".

>--
>Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson@microtronics.com.au Greg
>Watson    Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax


If you have a couple of the black boxes maybe you could try them in series.
If there is any o-u performance, enough boxes in series might eventually
give enough energy for a return trip.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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Date: Wed, 7 May 1997 22:51:00 -0800
To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner) Subject: Re: Simple OU Device
Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com, newman-l@emachine.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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At 4:01 PM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:

>>At 10:48 AM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote:
>>>Hi All,

>>>Just a short note to all those suggestions to use multi straight ramps
>>>or curved return tracks to close the loop.

>>>I have tried various schemes without success.

>>>What I have found is that with any angled scheme, the ball will not be
>>>able to stay on the "Neutral Line" of side to side attraction between
>>>the magnet assys and will loose energy because of the much larger side
>>>ways attractions very quickly.

>>>Seems angled schemes are doomed to fail. The ball must stay on the
>>>"Neutral Line".

>>If you have a couple of the black boxes maybe you could try them in
>>series. If there is any o-u performance, enough boxes in series might
>>eventually give enough energy for a return trip.

>>Regards,

>>Horace Heffner

>Hi Horace,

>Isn't a good engineering solution as the "Tuning" of the exit is sensitive
>to the ball speed (too much and it leaved the exit track and is attracted
>to one of the side magnets).

Use the speed to gain potential energy. You could even put the box on an
upwar incline if necessary to avoid excessive speed. The the ball will not
leave the track.



>While the ramps are simple to build and seem to indicate OU, I feel they
>are NOT the way to close the loop. My testing seems to indicate that out
>of a vertical lift and drop of 20mm, I can recover around 2-3mm worth of
>energy on exit. For a 12mm steel ball, that's not a lot of energy to play
>with.

That's plenty. Ten boxes and you have a rise of 2-3 cm. that's plenty of
elevation to roll around a corner - plus an initial 10 m of track to get
away from the box.



>They can, however, teach us about what is going on and why.

>--
>Best Regards Greg Watson Consulting gwatson@microtronics.com.au Greg
>Watson    Adelaide, S. Australia 61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

Regards,

Horace Heffner

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Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 04:41:04 -0700
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Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 03:46:26 -0800
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
From: hheffner@corecom.net (Horace Heffner)
Subject: Re: Simple OU Device
Resent-From: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 4:17 PM 5/8/97, Greg Watson wrote:
>Horace Heffner wrote:
>>
>> If you had one working you could easily rent a business space and charge
>> $10 admission just to see the world's first successful perpetual motion
>> machine. That should cover your patenting, development, and marketing costs
>> till you really got going.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Horace Heffner
>
>Hi Horace,
>
>And to think I thought you were the straight man.  Silly me.

I am serious. This is certainly what I would do if I was out to
commercialize what you have, provided the miracle of closing the loop can
be accomplished. I believe in starting small and growing when it is
possible.  I would certainly take that approach before going after investor
money.  This is not a big energy thing at this point, even if you close the
loop. It would only be a demonstrator, but a very animated one.  However,
that has value.  I think you should be be able to draw 100 people a day per
1,000,000 population for some time. You could franchise or expand to the
major cities around the world.  New York alone should be worth $10,000/day
gross for some time.


>
>At least now I know that you only believe in "OU according to Horace".

I believe in replicated data demonstrating success.  OU is not a religion,
and may not be a fact.  However, since I spend all available money and most
of my  time when not busy in my full time job serving a family of four as
cook, butler, shopper, chauffeur, handyman, mechanic, and errand boy, I
suppose you could say I have a considerable amount of faith in the prospect
of finding an improved energy source.  I have given freely of many ideas in
a public domain pulic forum. That makes me feel like maybe, just maybe, as
a part of a synergistic whole, I am giving something significant to
society.


>
>Join the discussion group, spectics keep us ALL honest.

Just curious, is the intellectual property generated by the group property
of the group, or is it public domain?

>
>
>--
>Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
>Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax

Regards,

Horace Heffner
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Resent-Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 14:54:38 -0700
Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 07:23:49 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Simple OU Device
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Horace Heffner wrote:
>
> >Join the discussion group, spectics keep us ALL honest.
>
> Just curious, is the intellectual property generated by the group property
> of the group, or is it public domain?

Hadn't thought of that.  Its not mine.  I guess its there to be used by
all.

--
Best Regards    Greg Watson Consulting    gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Greg Watson     Adelaide, S. Australia    61 8 8270 2737 Home/Office/Fax
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Regards,

Horace Heffner          


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 22 18:12:21 1997
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On Tue, 20 May 1997, Horace Heffner wrote:

> At 3:06 PM 5/20/97, Science wig. sig. wrote:
> >Can some one please recomend a good book on learning electronics?  I know
> >some of the basics, but not much.  Can someone tell me where to look to
> >learn more?
> >Andrew --
> >+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
> 
> I'm just learing electronics myself, as time permits,  so I've been through
> a few of these hoops lately.
> 
> One of the best for beginner self study is "Grob Basic Electronics", by
> Grob, McGraw Hill, ISBN 0-02-800762-X (Call 1-800-262-4729  to get McGraw
> Hill toll free).  Lots of physics along with the electronics.  It goes very
> slow, but that's why it is good for self study.  It spells out everything.
> I recommend you do lots of the problems with answers supplied. It's boring
> but well worth the time.
> 
> For lots of circuits to play with, try the McGraw Hill "Encyclopedia of
> Electronics".  Don't spend a lot of money on the books like I have, though,
> get the CD ROM version.  I got the first four book volumes super cheap, for
> like about $15, by joining the McGraw Hill EE Book Club, but the follow on
> volumes have cost a bit.  You can print the circuit diagrams from the CD on
> a PC.
> 
> "Electrionic Devices", Floyd, Prentice Hall, ISBN 0-13-363599-6 (electron
> flow version) seems pretty good.
> 
> An absolute must eventually is "The Art of Electronics", second edition, by
> Paul Horowiz and Winfield Hill,  Cambridge University Press, ISBN
> 0-521-37095-7.
> 
> Also, the "cookbooks" are a must - the "TTL Cookbook", "CMOS Cookbook", and
> "Op Amp Cookbook".  I don't have those yet so don't have other info.  Would
> appreciate it if anyone does.  As with most things, I'm just plodding along
> a bit at a time.
> 
> That's an amateur viewpoint.  I'm eager to hear what someone who knows what
> he is doing has to say.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner          
> 
> 
> 
----------------
Build it!

John Fields
----------------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 22 19:25:20 1997
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From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705230208.WAA00095@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: Re: Prototype
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:08:00 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <970522184324_1888848929@emout03.mail.aol.com> from "BBowyer744@aol.com" at May 22, 97 06:46:24 pm
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Please send me the information soo.
Andrew Cantino
33 Cable Lane
Athens, OH
45701

Or, just send it by e-mail.  Please do not use attached files.
Andrew

> 
>    Hi!  I have been interested in time travel for a long time.  It has been
> my dream to invent a time machine one day and witness famous events.  I went
> to your site and it said you could send the scamatics and theory to anyone
> interested.  I would really like to look over you're work.  Could you please
> send me a copy?  Here's my address:
>              Blake Bowyer
>             1939 Mariner lane
>              Woodbridge, Virginia
>               22192
> Thank you very much.
>                                                      Blake
> 
> 


-- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 22 20:07:49 1997
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From: skot@compumedia.com (Scott Becker)
Subject: Re: How many hours ?
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> --snip--
>Further, the commercial value of its natural extensions
>would almost certainly be in the many billions, if not
>trillions, of dollars.  So I think a bit of healthy
>skepticism is warranted.
>                                           Ken   Keasy@aol.com
>

To be more specific this huge market would not be for
selling energy ( as many think ) but for selling the
machines. Nobody would ever pay money for energy when
it's free. Eventually if good enough devices were
developed, all our computers, radios and appliances
will be wireless.

                                    Scott Becker
                                    skot@compumedia.com


/**********************************************************/
/* has anyone ever proven to you that energy is conserved */
/**********************************************************/

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 22 20:25:30 1997
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Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:52:04 -1000
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Tesla's or Neuman's machines?
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Larry -

   >  I was referring to the 1888 Tesla patent
   >  #381,970 which is identical to Joe
   >  Newman's machine.

Thanks. I don't have a complete description of it, but I do have a few
drawings from the patent. It's for a "system of electrical distribution",
and looks like a fairly conventional-looking alternator connected to a big
toroidal coil, then on to a distribution grid. Perhaps the drawings are
incomplete, and the toroid is really part of a motor. That looks to be the
case, as #382,279 "electro magnetic motor" or #390,413 "system of
electrical distribution" & #390,414 "dynamo electric machine" look like
motors and have that same or similar ring shaped coil, but now have
armature windings on a shaft in the middle.

Evan, if you see this, are any of these "identical" or even similar to JN's
machine? Can you explain what those Tesla patents are, and what the
important differences are between those and JN's?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 23 00:28:41 1997
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HLafonte@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hello,
>     I have a physics problem that deals with two permanent magnets. The Two
> magnets are in the repulsion mode. Friction and any resistance to movement
> from aerodynamic drag are not to be calculated. The problem is, if one magnet
> is moved at a rapid rate toward the other magnet, I need to know by using a
> formula ( I have no math background to speek of, but I can learn one formula
> I'm sure ) what takes place with respect to delay of movement between the
> first magnet that is moved and the second at rest magnet. If the first magnet
> is moved rapidly for one half inch for example, how long will it be before
> the second magnet is moved one half inch? I see the problem dealing with over
> coming the rest inerita of the second magnet and calculating a time to cover
> the same distance as the first magnet. The magnetic field of the two magnets
> would seem to " compress" for short period of time. This problem deals with a
> overunity design I am working on. Any help would be appreciated, any
> variables can be set by the person helping solve the problem ( type magnet,
> strength, rate of movement of first magnet, ) note: The first magnet reverses
> direction after one half inch. If more info is needed, please ask.
> Thanks, Butch LaFonte

Hi Butch,

To start with, the magnets would repel to the ends of the universe.

Otherwise, I believe the second unit would feel the compression of the
first by a light speed time interval.

Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 23 00:46:51 1997
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References: <97052123241107@odin> <33837C2C.6D7300FE@microtronics.com.au> <33839834.108E@math.ucla.edu> <3384C934.7C98@microtronics.com.au> <33851A3E.246@ix.netcom.com>
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Craig Haynie wrote:
> 
> Greg Watson wrote:
> 
> > The max height is 12mm above the lowest point.
> >
> > If released at the high point, the ball will roll down the exit slope
> > (approx 75 deg) to the entry of the next ramp and stop.
> 
> Why does it stop? The patent indicates that it will continue up the next
> ramp. From what I understand, you must have solved this problem. How did
> you do it?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Craig Haynie
> ccHaynie@ix.netcom.com

Hi Craig,

I stops because Barry asked me what happens when I remove the magnets
and release the ball from the highest point.

Best regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 23 00:48:24 1997
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Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> Greg,
> 
> You mention your "improvements" to 4215330 below.  Hope you aren't planning
> to apply for a patent on all those.   At the very least I would expect a
> severe problem in the "obviousness test" as applied to improvements over
> and above the  information posted in public domain.   See a few relevent
> postings below:

Hi Horace,

My RMOD (Rotary Magnetic Ou Device), which I am patenting, is VERY
different to the patent.

I based the SMOT (Simple Magnetic Ou Toy) on the patent as it is public
domain.

Best regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 23 00:58:45 1997
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Craig Haynie wrote:
> 
> Greg:
> 
> Is your ball-on-ramps device still running?

No, but it will start whenever I can put up with the noise.

> If so, what is the total distance of the circular track, and how many
> revolutions per minute do you get of the ball moving around the track?

It is approx 500mm in dia, uses 8 curved ramps and it takes about 12
seconds for a circuit.

The unit I will show you how to build will be quite a bit more compact.

The ramps will cost about $5 Aust ($3.50) US each.
 
> I've taken a look at the patent, 4,215,330, and it still baffles me. I
> can seen how an ever increasing magnetic field could induce a ball to
> roll up a hill, but I don't see how the ball could get free of the
> strong magnetic attraction at the top of the hill. I suppose the
> magnetic field at the top of the ramp is not strong enough to suspend
> the ball in mid-air when it reaches the hole, through which it is
> supposed to fall, but if it isn't this strong, then how does it pull the
> ball up the ramp?

The magnetic field contours are very different in the ramp and under the
ramp as the ball falls.  It does work and my units are VERY easy to
build and adjust compared to the patent.

6 others have duplicated the ramp, that I know of.

> Hasta,
> 
> Craig Haynie
> ccHaynie@ix.netcom.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 23 01:20:26 1997
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Puthoff@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 5/21/97 8:33:04 PM, the following question was asked:
> 
> <<When a permanent magnet
> pulls something toward it, it does work, but where is the conservation
> of energy?>>
> 
> Magnetic field energy is decreased as object moves into and quenches part of
> the field distribution; 

Quenches part of the field?  I don't understand this Hal.

If the object is a soft ferromagnetic material, the field energy
increases due to the additive action of the soft aligning domains in the
ferrite.

> shows up as kinetic energy of the object moving
> toward the magnet.
> 
> Hal Puthoff

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 23 01:27:13 1997
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Keasy@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Greg and all,
>     At the risk (justified, I think) of being tedious, let me see if we all
> understand what Greg says his devices will do:
>     Once started, both the SMOT and RMOD will run on their own indefinitely
> (3 hours to four days demonstrated)  and continuously WITHOUT EVER  ANY HUMAN
> ANYWHERE NEAR THEM and without any additional electrical, magnetic, or other
> energy input of any kind.  This precludes adjustments as the devices are
> running to keep them aligned (or whatever reason).

Correct.

>     While I certainly hope the claim is true (that is mostly what this group
> is all about), we all know many thousands, if not millions, of people have
> tried to accomplish this over the past 100 years or so.  Further, the
> commercial value of its natural extensions would almost certainly be in the
> many billions, if not trillions, of dollars.  So I think a bit of healthy
> skepticism is warranted.
>                                                    Ken   Keasy@aol.com

Hi Ken,

I really believe others have achieved what I have.

Anyway, by mid week the plans will be out for the Phase 1 device.

Build one (cost about $4 us) and experiment.

In Phase 2 we will link 3 to 4 devices together.


Best regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 23 01:40:17 1997
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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John Logajan wrote:
> 
> Greg Watson wrote:
> > 1) The Simple OU Toy is not my rotary device.  Same leg action,
> > different dog.
> > 2) It is a closed loop version of the patent 4,215,330, with
> > improvements.
> 
> A word of warning to replicators of the Hartman 4,215,330 patent:
> 
> A single pass through the device might not verify the operation
> of a closed loop version.  The Hartman device might contain somewhat
> of an illusion.
> 
> Namely, though the gradual slope up and the steep slope down
> guarantee that the ball returns to the same gravitational
> potential (assuming the thing actually works) there is no
> obvious guarantee that the ball also returns to the same
> magnetic potential.
> 
> Clearly the magnetic field is strongest above the "knee" in order
> to pull the ball up to the knee point.  The steep slope down
> puts the ball at a point closer to the strongest magnetic field
> than the starting point down the more distant shallow slope.
> 
> It is very important to actually demonstrate that the ball can
> return to the exact same starting point (close the loop.)
> Otherwise the ball might actually have "fallen" to a lower
> potential energy position that prohibits further motion,
> ala conservation of energy rules.
> 
> --
>  - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -

HI John,

There are actually three possibilities with the ramp as per the attached
drawing.  Any of the three can be achieved depending on how the field
contour under the magnets is massaged.

The linked ramps as shown in the patent work.  Others as well as I have
verified this.

I should be ready with the first Phase 1 plans by mid week.

Build a unit (cost about $4 us) and then scratch your head.


Best regards,
 Greg

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 23 03:36:34 1997
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Message-ID: <33856FBB.7351@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:51:47 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy
References: <970521124958_100060.173_JHB94-3@CompuServe.COM>
	 <33833252.5A5B@ix.netcom.com> <l03102807afab172154c2@[207.147.196.31]>
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Greg -
> 
>  >  No, but it will start whenever
>  >  I can put up with the noise.
> 
> Noise costs power. Do you polish the rails?
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI

Hi Rick,

With graphite!


Best regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 23 06:25:33 1997
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Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 21:11:43 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: Paul Callender <klicco@es.co.nz>
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: RMODs
References: <l03010d00afabd2922d38@[207.214.13.180]>
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Paul Callender wrote:
> 
> Hi Greg,
> I have recently been working on ideas for a RMOD and have figured out a
> setup that I think may work. I am trying to get the resources together to
> try it out, I can't find anything down here in NZ. I just wanted to know if
> I am working on the same lines as yourself, so if I may ask two questions
> (you don't have to answer) it would tell me if I should pursue or if I am
> just covering the same path you are currently working on.
> 
> 1. Does your RMOD require gravity to function?

It uses a restortative force in addition to magnetic forces.  The SMOT
device uses gravity as a restortative force.  The effect seems to need
two forces to function.

> 2. If you use a gradiated magnetic field, is it linear or is the graph of
> the strength of magnets vs. distance like a curve or even "S" shaped?

Like the SMOT device, the magnetic field contours are distorted to that
required.

> Again, you don't have to answer, I respect that you have put a lot of time
> into magnetic OU and would most likely wish to have some returns for the
> time you put in. I don't mind cause I'll just keep experimenting till I get
> something that works well, but it would help me if I know if we are, or are
> not on the same paths.
> 
> Thanks,
> ...................
> 
> Paul Callender

Hi Paul,

I can give you some clues.  There seems to be four effects you must
control to achieve success.


 1) Distorted magnetic field contours which are different on entry and
exit.

 2) Linear restortative force which is equal but differential over input
to exit.

 3) A soft ferromagnetic material to act as a vector summing device for
the forces.

 4) A time and distance varying permeability in the soft ferrite.


Blend them all together and drive a Phd nuts.

Hope this helps.  Never be afraid to ask.  You never really know what
the answer will be.


Best regards,
 Greg.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 23 06:48:03 1997
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Old-Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 07:48:57 -0600
From: Shane Hall <schall@it.sait.ab.ca>
Subject: Self Accelerating Plasma Tube
To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com
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Hello Ossie,

    I was very interested in your posting of the modified Siberian
Coliu.

    Have there been any positive experiments since your post?

Searching for the source,

Shane Hall

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 23 14:15:32 1997
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Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:03:29 -0600
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Subject: Re: diagrams/specs
Resent-Message-ID: <"jFzSD3.0.zC3.pMWXp"@mx2>
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>Larry -
>
>   >  I was referring to the 1888 Tesla patent
>   >  #381,970 which is identical to Joe
>   >  Newman's machine.
>
>Thanks. I don't have a complete description of it, but I do have a few
>drawings from the patent. It's for a "system of electrical distribution",
>and looks like a fairly conventional-looking alternator connected to a big
>toroidal coil, then on to a distribution grid. Perhaps the drawings are
>incomplete, and the toroid is really part of a motor. That looks to be the
>case, as #382,279 "electro magnetic motor" or #390,413 "system of
>electrical distribution" & #390,414 "dynamo electric machine" look like
>motors and have that same or similar ring shaped coil, but now have
>armature windings on a shaft in the middle.
>
>Evan, if you see this, are any of these "identical" or even similar to JN's
>machine? Can you explain what those Tesla patents are, and what the
>important differences are between those and JN's?
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI

Dear Rick,

If you are able to locate drawings/specs for the above devices I would be
happy to look at them.  I endeavored to call up the patent info on the
internet, but nothing came up.  My mailing address is: P.O. Box 57684, New
Orleans, LA 70157-7684.

Evan Soule'
josephnewman@earthlink.net


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 23 14:39:16 1997
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Message-ID: <33860DD4.37A3@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 07:06:20 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy
References: <970521124958_100060.173_JHB94-3@CompuServe.COM>	
	 <33833252.5A5B@ix.netcom.com> <l03102807afab172154c2@[207.147.196.31]> <l03102803afab9561fe57@[207.147.203.185]>
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Greg -
> 
>   > With graphite!
> 
> That's lubrication. I mean *polish* the rails. Very fine abrasives in
> stages arriving at a mirror flat edge surface where the surface of the ball
> rides. There should be no rumbling or other rough sound as the balls travel
> on the raceways. If those rails have their edges flattened nicely, there
> should be almost no significant sound from it at all except where there's
> impact from a falling ball off the end of a ramp, and it shouldn't even
> need lube. Not necessary I suppose with the SMOT if it works; working at
> all is the thing.

I run the side of a pencil over the side of the Alum "U" channel.  Seems
to remove most small bumps and dents.  The graphite stays on the rails
and provides dry lubrication.  You are right, noise is wasted energy. 
My first stage SMOT is fairly quiet.

> But wouldn't it be fun or useful to eliminate as much friction as possible
> to see what the system will do - like accelerate a bit over the first few
> revolutions? 

The initial SMOT devices are NOT rotary.  That will happen later as you
learn the characteristics of mag ramps.  One small step at a time.


> Does your RMOD accelerate a bit from a minimal initial starting push?

My current RMOD plexi-glass unit is under continual torque.  It self
starts.

The SMOT device does accelerate as it starts to climd the ramp.  It will
self start as well.

> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI

Hi Rick,

The plans for the Phase 1 device will be out by mid week, maybe sooner.

I have e-mailed the original drawings to Jean-Louis.

Build a ramp and gives us some feedback on reducing friction.  I have
found that friction is a MAJOR source of energy loss and the biggest
cause of unreliable / unstable operation.

I have responded to both mail groups in this corro.  That will be my
standard reply unless you request your corro to be kept private.  I am
doing this to ensure we all get the benefit of all of our input and
ideas.


Best regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 23 19:40:35 1997
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Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:42:59 -0800
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: pgb@padrak.com (Patrick Bailey)
Subject: The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been updated
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The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been updated at:

http://www.padrak.com/ine/

Most New Data Files are at:   http://www.padrak.com/ine/index.shtml#INE_RECENT

All the revisions are in the file:    http://www.padrak.com/ine/REVISIONS.html

-------------     ------------------------------------------------------------
Date Included     Additions, Expansions, or Revisions
-------------     ------------------------------------------------------------

May 23, 1997      Added:  NEN TOC Vol. 5, No. 1, May 1997
                     Promotion By Destruction - On Cold Fusion
                     The New Energy Spectrum
                     Fusion Briefings: Playing The Lose-Lose Game
                     Gene Mallove In The News
                     R&D Magazine Looks At Cold Fusion
                     Einstein Would Have Called It "Cold Fission"
                     New Patterson-Cravens Patent
                     Finnish Gravity Research Summary in Nexus
                     What Are Characteristics Of The Aether?
                     Electrostatics Newsletter
                     Apologies To Dr. Bockris Letter
                     Letter From Don Kelly on Advanced Energy Projects
                     Letter From Steve Smith Regarding P&F and Cold Fusion
                  Added:
                     Steven Mark's Device: Known Data from AU
                     Orgone Energy Seminars Offered in Aug. 1997
                     Joseph Newman's Electric Lift Device Experiment
                     A Compilation of Anti-Gravity Articles And References
                     New Plasmiod Pictures and sites from Edward Lewis
                        His new web site, new ELEWIS9 pictures link, and
                        a new link (moved) for his ELEWIS8 page.
                  Updated:  Fabulous Facts File,
                     Websites, People, Organizations, etc.
                  Site Counter = 106,547 !
                     More than some other "adult sites"!
                  HAPPY 4TH ISNE!  (I hope someone demos something useful...)


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 23 21:56:56 1997
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Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:41:55 -1000
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy
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 Greg -

   >  Build a ramp and gives us some feedback on
   >  reducing friction.  I have found that friction
   >  is a MAJOR source of energy loss and the
   >  biggest cause of unreliable / unstable
   >  operation.

I'm in.

   >
   >  I have responded to both mail groups in this
   >  corro.  That will be my standard reply
   >  unless you request your corro to be kept
   >  private.  I am doing this to ensure we all get
   >  the benefit of all of our input and ideas.

Cool. I thought I *was* on list, until after I sent my reply I saw the
reply button had resulted in an offlist message.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 23 22:31:52 1997
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Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:30:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tony Rusi <windski@eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Comments from Weird Science (fwd)
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On Wed, 21 May 1997, William Beaty wrote:

> see below
>=20
> .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,...........................=
=2E.
> William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623
> EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~bill=
b/
> Seattle, WA 98117  billb@eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page
>=20
>=20
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 07:20:29 -0700
> From: Arlen <arlenbass@AOL.COM>
> To: billb@eskimo.com
> Subject: Comments from Weird Science
>=20
> --- category ---
> ok
>=20
> --- comments ---
> \TROMBLY\  MAY 16, 1997   FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE, GLOBAL PEACE PROJECT,add=
ressing OUR GLOBAL ENVIRONMENTAL EMERGENCY, PROBLEMS AND SOLUTIONSContact: =
 David Crockett Williams, Santa Barbara Coordinator, 805-961-2701Addressing=
 Our Global Environmental Emergency which threatens all Life on Earth, Adam=
 Trombly is giving his first radio interview in three years on this Sunday,=
 May 18th, from 9PM to midnight, locally on KTMS and nationally via Jeff Re=
nse's syndicated radio show which can be accessed with sound card by intern=
et at his web page <www.endoftheline.com>.  Trombly is a physicist and clim=
atologist at The Institute for Advanced Studies in Aspen, Colorado, which h=
e founded with Buckminster Fuller.  Adam Trombly is an internationally ackn=
owledged expert in the fields of Physics, Atmospheric Dynamics, Geophysics,=
 Rotating and Resonating Electromagnetic Systems, and Environmental Global =
Modeling.  Taking the advice of his friend and mentor, R. Buckminster Fulle=
r, Adam has maintained a "synergistic, global view" within a multi-discipli=
nary scientific background.  From this perspective Adam offers unique insig=
hts into the changes humankind has affected on our environment, and the adj=
ustments our future requires of us now.With other physicists at NASA, by th=
e late 1970's, Trombly became aware of what is now known as the zero-point =
energy field from anomalous planetary energy measurements.  While then cons=
idering the potential of tapping this energy field, inherent in three dimen=
sional space itself, with a new alternative zero-point energy technology, h=
e became aware of the "n-Machine" experiments done in Santa Barbara by Bruc=
e DePalma in 1979. Recognizing that this was a zero-point device, he applie=
d himself to the principle and shortly developed an improved configuration =
called the "closed path homopolar generator" and disclosed full details in =
an international patent which has inspired subsequent proof-of-concept arou=
nd the world.  Trombly's name, along with Bruce DePalma, Edgar Mitchell, an=
d George Ainsworth-Land, appeared in a July 1981 Satellite News article pre=
dicting use of this generator in satellites.  In 1985, Dr. Yonas, the Chief=
 Scientist for the Strategic Defense Initiative, testified in US Congressio=
nal budget hearings that this technology (the "homopolar" generator as Mich=
ael Faraday called it in 1831) was a "critical technology" for the Strategi=
c Defense Initiative ("Star Wars" weapons).  In subsequent years evidence i=
ndicates that this technology is in place in orbiting "rail gun" military s=
atellites.  Trombly for some time was under a Federal Court gag order not t=
o talk about this technology after he found it under covert development for=
 US submarine propulsion.  Risking and surviving assasination attempts to s=
hut him up, Adam has courageously decided (after several years hermetic lif=
estyle) to come once again to the forefront of public presentation of infor=
mation regarding the seriousness of our global environmental crisis and how=
 this new technology can help save our planet.We are calling for the immedi=
ate establishment of a GLOBAL ENVIRONMENTAL EMERGENCY RESPONSE PLAN AND TEA=
M to implement solutions to this crisis. Adam has adjusted his schedule to =
come to Santa Barbara to take part in our June 1 briefing for the science a=
dvisor to His Holiness Dalai Lama, and has been invited to be one of the ke=
y participants in the Public Briefing on these matters June 2, 7PM, at UCSB=
 Chem 1179, along with Brian O'Leary, former science & energy policy adviso=
r to four US Presidential candidates and author of a book about these zero-=
point "free energy technologies" called "Miracle in The Void", and with inv=
estigative journalist Jeane Manning, author of "The Coming Energy Revolutio=
n".For more details check out websites for Trombly at <www.projectearth.com=
>, Bruce DePalma at <www.depalma.org.nz>, & O'Leary <www.maui.net./~kamapua=
a>The United States, through a 1952 Secrecy Order obtained under the Freedo=
m of Information Act, has been suppressing the public development of this c=
ritical technology in the US.  However, Japan is putting millions of dollar=
s into its development and negotiations are now under way, if the US policy=
 doesn't change, to build a $2.5 billion manufacturing plant in Germany to =
produce a state-of-the-art home unit to allow individual homes to disconnec=
t from utility power grids.  Larger devices are also possible such as ones =
to replace the electricity output of the three coal-fired electric power pl=
ants in the Four Corners area which reportedly produce more acid rain pollu=
tions than the top five US cities combined, and whose coal strip-mining is =
the root of the genocidal US policy of the continuing forced removal of the=
 native American people on Arizona'a Black Mesa where Big Mountain is locat=
ed.  --RAA29329.864000851/coyote.rain.org--=20
>=20
> --- money ---
> yes donate 5.00
>=20
> --- money2 ---
> $10.00
>=20
>=20
does anyone know how this homopolar generator works? This is a real
technology. I am bummed that four corners might close, it's cooling pond
is a destination windsurfing site.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 23 23:15:28 1997
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Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:41:30 +0300
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Lev Robert <Bushi@multinet.net.il>
Subject: Looking for the lost magnetism
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Hi all
I have read recently that an old Indian Emperor named ASHOKA ordered his
scientist to enclosed everything they knew in a book. The name of this book
was "Nine unknown Men". One of the books was called "The Secrets of
Gravitation". So if someone could find this book all our magnetic and
gravity problems would be solved.
Anyone heard about the books???
Robert
BUSHILEV

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 00:05:44 1997
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From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
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Greg Watson wrote:

 >Build a ramp and gives us some feedback on reducing friction.  I have
 >found that friction is a MAJOR source of energy loss and the biggest
 >cause of unreliable / unstable operation.

Might there be one point where friction could be an aid? Just at the edge 
where the ball is about to fall off the end of the ramp, a *tiny* point of 
friction to brake the forward momentum, its angular momentum (because it's 
been spinning) carrying it over the edge?


Dan Quickert
dequickert@ucdavis.edu
(916) 756-0575

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 02:08:28 1997
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Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:54:41 -1000
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: diagrams/specs
Resent-Message-ID: <"DeTwZ3.0.h34.CrgXp"@mx2>
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Evan -

   >  If you are able to locate drawings/specs for
   >  the above devices I would be happy to look at
   >  them.

I found drawings but no text in one of those bizarre books by D.H.
Childress : "The Fantastic Inventions of Nikola Tesla". According to this
work, Tesla and Marconi discovered the secret to long life, faked their
deaths, and are now living together somewhere down in South America
building UFOs for the secret world government. Maybe they have a web site
by now? Ahem...uh, there's another book out which claims to list *all* his
patented inventions, but I don't have it. Compiled by Ratzlaff, $40 from
the International Tesla Society.

I could try to scan the pictures from the pages of the book I have and send
them, but I'm afraid the details won't come through well enough to get a
useful look. Feel like trying that?

Anyone else know if this patent (#382,279) may be found somewhere online?

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 02:17:56 1997
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Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:16:16 -1000
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Comments from Weird Science (fwd)
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Toni Rusi wrote:

   >  does anyone know how this homopolar
   >  generator works? This is a real technology. I
   >  am bummed that four corners might close,
   >  it's cooling pond is a destination windsurfing
   >  site.

Windsurfing works for me, but I don't think any homopolars have been shown
to be overunity. And Trombly was not listed on the "Sightings on Radio" web
site <http://www.sightings.com/ > as having been on the radio on the May
18th, or any other radio show.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 05:52:44 1997
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From: Tixif@aol.com
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 08:51:30 -0400 (EDT)
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Having anticipated Gregs construction plans for weeks, I saw them this
morning on Jean-Louis' page.  It was about 6 AM and I am ready to start
building.  I am looking up all my sources for materials at this time and will
post local resource suggestions if anyone is interested.  In addition, anyone
in the Austin area that would like to put their heads together is welcome to
contact me.  And those on the list might consider the same for their local
area.
You guys are amazing!
Shawn

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 07:19:24 1997
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From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705241406.KAA06499@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: Re: diagrams/specs
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:06:31 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <l03102800afac5a17360e@[207.147.196.141]> from "Rick Monteverde" at May 23, 97 10:54:41 pm
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Hey, it could list all of his PATENTED inventions!  Just, he did not
patent most of his good ones.  They were all in his head.

I have a list of all the Tesla books around at:
http://frognet.net/~cantino/tesla/tesla.html

> 
> Evan -
> 
>    >  If you are able to locate drawings/specs for
>    >  the above devices I would be happy to look at
>    >  them.
> 
> I found drawings but no text in one of those bizarre books by D.H.
> Childress : "The Fantastic Inventions of Nikola Tesla". According to this
> work, Tesla and Marconi discovered the secret to long life, faked their
> deaths, and are now living together somewhere down in South America
> building UFOs for the secret world government. Maybe they have a web site
> by now? Ahem...uh, there's another book out which claims to list *all* his
> patented inventions, but I don't have it. Compiled by Ratzlaff, $40 from
> the International Tesla Society.
> 
> I could try to scan the pictures from the pages of the book I have and send
> them, but I'm afraid the details won't come through well enough to get a
> useful look. Feel like trying that?
> 
> Anyone else know if this patent (#382,279) may be found somewhere online?
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
> 
> 
> 


-- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 08:05:22 1997
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From: Tixif@aol.com
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:52:40 -0400 (EDT)
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Subject: Crude Success
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Since my local hobby store wasn't open yet, I' had to play with the materials
I have:
1.  Track made from 2 notebook binders space ~13mm apart.
2.  Binder edges resting on a calculator ~10mm thick for the rise of the
ramp.
3.  A mouse track ball still with the rubber grip insulation around it (high
friction!)
4.  A pushpin to keep the ball from rolling back down during startup, stuck
into the binders ~66mm from the exit end.
5.  4 ceramic mags (3/8"X3/4"X1 13/16").
The ball WILL roll up the ramp and drop out of the field.
Shawn

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 09:59:00 1997
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From: HLafonte@aol.com
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Greg, 
    Do you have any video of your ou device working for extended periods of
time?
Butch LaFonte

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 11:19:40 1997
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Message-ID: <01BC682B.73268D00@chiltepine.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Simple OU Toy
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:15:38 -0700
Encoding: 26 TEXT
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Saw the plans for the SMOT late last night on Jean-Louis Naudin's website.

Immediately reconfigured one of my test rigs to see how the design works. 
 Length, height of the ramp and the field contour adjustment generally in 
concept with the posted design, but used parts on hand - different size 
magnets (4mm x 20mm x 25mm), steel bar twice too long, wooden plant pot 
labels for spacers. With all that variation from the specs, it worked first 
time, with a lift of 18mm. Some previous experience with the ramps 
influenced that result, of course.

Positioned a previously working ramp (of different design) at the new one's 
exit (second ramp's entrance at the same elevation as the first ramp's 
entrance); the ball ran through both ramps after minor horizontal 
adjustment at their linkage point.

Will try to get materials to more exactly duplicate the posted design soon. 
Meanwhile, I'd say that the plans are good if I can go so far from the 
specs and still have it work so well. Of course there's also the 
possibility that it wouldn't work without my changes, but from my 
experience the differences in my quick mock-up were in the direction away 
from optimal. I'd opine that the design works, within a wide margin of 
construction variability.

Dan Quickert
dequickert@ucdavis.edu
916-756-0575

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 11:19:43 1997
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---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    Third party testing
Date:    97-05-24 13:01:13 EDT
From:    HLafonte
To:      newman-l@emachine.com

Evan,
    Do you think Joe would let the Academy For New Energy  test the Energy
Machine ? They are " pro overunity " , and I believe they would be objective
in their testing. By  " pro overunity " I mean they believe that there are
some devices out there that are over unity but they have not tested any to
date that are.
Butch LaFonte

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 11:20:25 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:07:26 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970524130725_69948855@emout20.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
cc: Tixif@aol.com
Subject: Re : Watson/Teamwork
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On 24/05/1997 13:54:19  , you wrote :

<< Suj :	Watson/Teamwork
 Date :	24/05/1997 13:54:19  
 From:	Tixif@aol.com
 Resent-from:	freenrg-l@eskimo.com
 Reply-to:	freenrg-l@eskimo.com
 To:	freenrg-l@eskimo.com
 
 Having anticipated Gregs construction plans for weeks, I saw them this
 morning on Jean-Louis' page.  It was about 6 AM and I am ready to start
 building.  I am looking up all my sources for materials at this time and
will
 post local resource suggestions if anyone is interested >>

Hi Shawn,

You will find the pictures and the video of my SMOT V1.0 device at :
    http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/smot1jln.htm

Sincerely,

Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 11:37:13 1997
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From: Michael C Slivinski <sunbrite@mymail.net>
Subject: Re: regarding over unity ramp
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Hello all, 
wouldn't the OU ramp that has been demonstrated qualify for the prise monies
offered by groups offering a demo of it. also I beleive even the Sceptics
group, (not sure of the name) is offering a nice purse. Once demonstrated
and monies claimed, of course could fund further research.
just thoughts
Mike Slivinski  sunbrite@mymail.net
http://www.myhomepage.net/~sunbrite/

God helps those, that help themselves... 
so they may help others! MCS

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 16:17:24 1997
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From: JWGSA@aol.com
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 18:40:34 -0400 (EDT)
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Shawn,

I am in San Antonio and pass through Austin now and them.  

Jack

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 16:17:32 1997
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Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 16:30:01 -0600 (MDT)
From: "John R. Tooker" <jrtooker@freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: diagrams/specs
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On Sat, 24 May 1997, Science wig. sig. wrote:

> 
> Hey, it could list all of his PATENTED inventions!  Just, he did not
> patent most of his good ones.  They were all in his head.
> 
> I have a list of all the Tesla books around at:
> http://frognet.net/~cantino/tesla/tesla.html
You might wish to check out the books on Tesla by George Trinkhaus (sp)
through High Voltage Press. Those books cover some of his less well known
work.
John

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 16:18:11 1997
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From: HLafonte@aol.com
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 18:25:51 -0400 (EDT)
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Could you give the the web address of Jean-Louis so I could see the drawings?
Thanks, Butch LaFonte

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 17:46:19 1997
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HLafonte@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Could you give the the web address of Jean-Louis so I could see the drawings?
> Thanks, Butch LaFonte

The address for Jean-Louis's overunity site is:
http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/index.htm

Dave DeLeo

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 17:52:01 1997
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Subject: Magnets for simple OU Toy
References: <01BC682B.73268D00@chiltepine.ucdavis.edu>
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Has anyone found a good supplier for magnets....

I have been using radio shack ceramics for my ramps but they are not the
same size as in the plans.  Also they are expensive and the plans
recommend 64 per ramp, I have been using about 16 per ramp.  Edmund
Scientific didn't have any in 4x10x13mm at least not in the catalog I
have (1996-97 optics and optical instruments catalog).  I would like to
build this as soon as possible so if someone could help me get my hands
on these I would appreciate it.

Dave DeLeo
ddeleo@ix.netcom.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 18:44:23 1997
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From: Michael Randall <mrandall@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy
Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Greg Watson wrote:
>
>The plans for the Phase 1 device will be out by mid week, maybe sooner.
>
>I have e-mailed the original drawings to Jean-Louis.
>
>Build a ramp and gives us some feedback on reducing friction.  I have
>found that friction is a MAJOR source of energy loss and the biggest
>cause of unreliable / unstable operation.
>

Hi Greg,

The plans for the Phase 1 device looks complete. Jean-Louis did a great job
of drawing them up and posting the plans at his site:

http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/index.htm

Thanks Greg and Jean-Louis!

With this kind of detailed information the probability of successful
duplication should increase. A list of suppliers would be needed next. And
then those that are "skilled in the art" can assemble a unit for sale for
people that don't have the time to build one but would still like to
experiment with.

Looking forward to the next Phases!

Best Regards,
Michael Randall


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 20:03:59 1997
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Tixif@aol.com wrote:
>And those on the list might consider the same for their local
> area.
> You guys are amazing!
> Shawn

Maybe we can use IRC so that we can discuss things in real time.  Might
be more productive than email...

Just something to consider,
Dave DeLeo

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 20:32:29 1997
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Subject: Score
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            Got it working      Couldn't get it working
Phase I            2                       0
Phase II


                                    Scott Becker
                                    skot@compumedia.com


/********************************************************/
/* I don't think that energy is conserved, but it       */
/* doesn't matter if useful over-unity operation works! */
/********************************************************/

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 20:53:57 1997
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Cc: eric@voicenet.com
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 19:44:19 PST
Subject: Re: O/U Device & Gary Effect
Message-ID: <19970314.204412.11582.0.tv@juno.com>
References: <199705240447.AAA19656@mail3.voicenet.com>
X-Mailer: Juno 1.00
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From: tv@juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
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Hi Eric,

I posted the Wesley Gary documents on a web page at
<   http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4810 >

It is from the orginal article of 1879.

Tim
( tv@juno.com )

On Sat, 24 May 97 00:42:47 -0500 Eric Krieg -voicenet <eric@voicenet.com>
writes:
>Could you please write me up a paragraph to post on the work of Wesley 
>Gary
>to post on my PM FE history page?
>
>http://www.voicenet.com/~eric/dennis4.html
>
>eric
>-------- REPLY, Original message follows --------
>
>Date: Sunday, 02-Mar-97 08:00 PM
>
>From: Tim D Vaughan            \ Internet:    (tv@juno.com)
>To:   vortex-l@eskimo.com      \ Internet:    (vortex-l@eskimo.com)
>cc:   freenrg-l@eskimo.com     \ Internet:    (freenrg-l@eskimo.com)
>
>Subject: O/U Device & Gary Effect
>
>Since Mr. Watson's device is apparently based on the same principle as 
>that
>of Wesley Gary (1874), is it not reasonable to re-examine this 
>remarkable
>but ignored invention from the 19th centrury ?   Even though the 
>inventions
>of Wesley Gary and Greg Watson generate only  flee power, they should 
>not be
>dismissed as just toys.  The GARY EFFECT  (or Gary-Watson Effect) can
>certtainly be enhanced to any level of power  when it is better 
>understood.
>
>Consider the invention of Hans Coler as a possible example of such
>advancement.
>
>I think Beatty's electronic think-tank is working  !
>
>Tim Vaughan
>(tv@juno.com)
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 21:00:46 1997
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: skot@compumedia.com (Scott Becker)
Subject: Re: Magnets for simple OU Toy
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>Has anyone found a good supplier for magnets....
>
>I have been using radio shack ceramics for my ramps but they are not the
>same size as in the plans.  Also they are expensive and the plans
>recommend 64 per ramp, I have been using about 16 per ramp.  Edmund
>Scientific didn't have any in 4x10x13mm at least not in the catalog I
>have (1996-97 optics and optical instruments catalog).  I would like to
>build this as soon as possible so if someone could help me get my hands
>on these I would appreciate it.
>
>Dave DeLeo
>ddeleo@ix.netcom.com
>

Edmund Scientific has a thinner catalog with more educational stuff and
twice as many magnets. The section of ceramic magnets has many sizes and
package prices ( e.g. 30ea. for $15 ).

                                    Scott Becker
                                    skot@compumedia.com


/********************************************************/
/* I don't think that energy is conserved, but it       */
/* doesn't matter if useful over-unity operation works! */
/********************************************************/

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 21:03:13 1997
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From: tim.vaughan@trex.ccc-infonet.edu (Tim Vaughan)
Subject: Watson's Amazing (re)Discovery
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:50:07 GMT
Message-Id: <864532207@trex.ccc-infonet.edu>
Organization: Yosemite Community College District
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Thanks Greg for making this available for all of us
play with !!  So simple, yet so profound !

The Simple Overunity Toy is demonstrating a very
interesting phenomena.  Ferromagnetism probably
has the inherent ability to cohere or organize
fluctuation energy.  But whatever is making the
ball go round the track can be scaled up in a
different form to produce large amounts of energy
like Hans Coler did in 1930's in Germany.

Let us not let Greg Watson's rediscovery of this
important principle be ignored like it was in
1879 with Wesley Gary's device.

History is in the making here !  Please keep posting
your observations on the freenrg-l as it becomes
available to all and is recorded for posterity.

Thanks to Jean-Louis Naudin for the excellent web
page describing it with great drawing, pictures,
and a video:
< http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/smot1.htm >


Tim Vaughan
( tv@juno.com )


CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 21:06:34 1997
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Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:51:31 -0700 (PDT)
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Michael Randall <mrandall@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Re : Watson/Teamwork
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Hi Jean-Louis,

Nice video and photo's of your Phase 1 unit! I see that your unit also
worked with different magnets. Can you describe your unit like:

- What was the lenght and size of the aluminum(?) ramp, and height at the
end point?
- Size of your magnets and steel ball used? 
- Does the ball exit at the same level as the entry level?
- At end drop did the ball roll away?

This would help others in designing their units with more choices from
available material sources.

Best Regards,
Michael Randall

At 01:07 PM 5/24/97 -0400, you wrote:
>On 24/05/1997 13:54:19  , you wrote :
>
><< Suj :	Watson/Teamwork
> Date :	24/05/1997 13:54:19  
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 21:15:51 1997
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Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:15:47 -0600
From: Shane Hall <schall@it.sait.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: diagrams/specs
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Message-id: <3387BCF2.870D758E@mail.it.sait.ab.ca>
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Hi everyone,

    I think we'd all be interested in Nikola's free energy machine.  The
Cosmic Ray Collector!

    Does anyone have any info on it?  I've only heard rumors of it.

ScHall

Science wig. sig. wrote:

> Hey, it could list all of his PATENTED inventions!  Just, he did not
> patent most of his good ones.  They were all in his head.
>
> I have a list of all the Tesla books around at:
> http://frognet.net/~cantino/tesla/tesla.html
>
> >
> > Evan -
> >
> >    >  If you are able to locate drawings/specs for
> >    >  the above devices I would be happy to look at
> >    >  them.
> >
> > I found drawings but no text in one of those bizarre books by D.H.
> > Childress : "The Fantastic Inventions of Nikola Tesla". According to
> this
> > work, Tesla and Marconi discovered the secret to long life, faked
> their
> > deaths, and are now living together somewhere down in South America
> > building UFOs for the secret world government. Maybe they have a web
> site
> > by now? Ahem...uh, there's another book out which claims to list
> *all* his
> > patented inventions, but I don't have it. Compiled by Ratzlaff, $40
> from
> > the International Tesla Society.
> >
> > I could try to scan the pictures from the pages of the book I have
> and send
> > them, but I'm afraid the details won't come through well enough to
> get a
> > useful look. Feel like trying that?
> >
> > Anyone else know if this patent (#382,279) may be found somewhere
> online?
> >
> > - Rick Monteverde
> > Honolulu, HI
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> +-----Andrew
> Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
> |   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html
> |
> |   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/
> |
> +
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
> |
> |
> |   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics
> |
> |   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **
> |
> |   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **
> |
> |
> |
> +
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------+



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 22:16:02 1997
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Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:05:29 -0600
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Third party testing
Resent-Message-ID: <"zHphT3.0.oI3.0XyXp"@mx2>
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>---------------------
>Forwarded message:
>Subj:    Third party testing
>Date:    97-05-24 13:01:13 EDT
>From:    HLafonte
>To:      newman-l@emachine.com
>
>Evan,
>    Do you think Joe would let the Academy For New Energy  test the Energy
>Machine ? They are " pro overunity " , and I believe they would be objective
>in their testing. By  " pro overunity " I mean they believe that there are
>some devices out there that are over unity but they have not tested any to
>date that are.
>Butch LaFonte

Dear Butch,

Well, I staying at home (in New Orleans) "minding the fort" so-to-speak, so
I don't honestly know what will transpire tomorrow (Sunday) in Denver.  I
know that Joe is planning a lecture and workshop to demonstrate the
technology.  Whether or not ANE has the ability to test and what
arrangements they can/will make with Joe -- that will be for them to decide
(if they wish)....I do know that a News Conference is planned by ANE on
Monday in Denver.  Positive announcements would be desirable.

For what it's worth (re anyone wishing to reach anyone at the Denver
Conference) the main telephone number is: (303) 779-1100.

Gyroscopically yours,

Evan Soule'
Director of Information
NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS
josephnewman@earthlink.net
(504) 524-3063
P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684
Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087
          http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html



"The day when we shall know exactly what electricity is, will chronicle an
event probably greater than any other recorded in the human race."

                                     --- NIKOLA TESLA



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 22:24:44 1997
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Message-ID: <3387CAD4.16A0@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:45:00 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
CC: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy
References: <01BC682B.73268D00@chiltepine.ucdavis.edu>
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Dan Quickert wrote:
> 
> Saw the plans for the SMOT late last night on Jean-Louis Naudin's website.
> 
> Immediately reconfigured one of my test rigs to see how the design works.
>  Length, height of the ramp and the field contour adjustment generally in
> concept with the posted design, but used parts on hand - different size
> magnets (4mm x 20mm x 25mm), steel bar twice too long, wooden plant pot
> labels for spacers. With all that variation from the specs, it worked first
> time, with a lift of 18mm. Some previous experience with the ramps
> influenced that result, of course.
> 
> Positioned a previously working ramp (of different design) at the new one's
> exit (second ramp's entrance at the same elevation as the first ramp's
> entrance); the ball ran through both ramps after minor horizontal
> adjustment at their linkage point.

Good to see they linked so easily.  Sometimes ramp linking is tricky.

> Will try to get materials to more exactly duplicate the posted design soon.
> Meanwhile, I'd say that the plans are good if I can go so far from the
> specs and still have it work so well. Of course there's also the
> possibility that it wouldn't work without my changes, but from my
> experience the differences in my quick mock-up were in the direction away
> from optimal. I'd opine that the design works, within a wide margin of
> construction variability.
> 
> Dan Quickert

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the good words.  I spent quite a lot of time to design a
simple to build ramp which also has inbuilt WIDE margins and is simple
to adjust.  KISS the best design.

Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 22:24:55 1997
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Message-ID: <3387C8B1.4619@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:35:53 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Magnets for simple OU Toy
References: <199705250400.VAA13781@ganymede.compumedia.com>
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Scott Becker wrote:
> 
> >Has anyone found a good supplier for magnets....

Hi Scott,

The magnets I use are ceramic fridge magnets.  Nothing special or
flash.  They cost me $5 Aust ($3.50 US) for 100 (One Hundred!) at a
local JayCar Electronics Store.

Would you suggest you call suppliers of fridge magnet products.  They
have lots of interesting magnetic materials at LOW COST.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 22:38:01 1997
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Message-ID: <3387CB90.6C8@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:48:08 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: regarding over unity ramp
References: <1.5.4.16.19970524133621.3eafceaa@pop.mymail.net>
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Michael C Slivinski wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
> wouldn't the OU ramp that has been demonstrated qualify for the prise monies
> offered by groups offering a demo of it. also I beleive even the Sceptics
> group, (not sure of the name) is offering a nice purse. Once demonstrated
> and monies claimed, of course could fund further research.
> just thoughts
> Mike Slivinski  sunbrite@mymail.net

Hi Mike,

The single SMOT ramp is not clearly OU.  You need to finish the Phase 4
device for that.

Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 22:38:54 1997
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Message-ID: <3387CC22.61C9@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:50:34 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
CC: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy
References: <970524193259_100433.1541_BHG76-1@CompuServe.COM>
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Chris Tinsley wrote:
> 
> Dan,
> 
>  > With all that variation from the specs, it worked first time, with
>  > a lift of 18mm.
> 
> Are you saying that you are seeing continuous, unceasing motion in your
> implementation of this device?
> 
> I mean, like perpetual motion, like?
> 
> Chris

Hi Chris,

The single SMOT ramp is not clearly OU.  You will need to finish the
Phase 4 device for that.  But the ramp sure makes you think.  

Have you built yours yet?

Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 22:41:42 1997
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Message-ID: <3387D039.1592@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:08:01 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Score
References: <199705250319.UAA13112@ganymede.compumedia.com>
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Scott Becker wrote:
> 
>             Got it working      Couldn't get it working
> Phase I            2                       0
> Phase II
> 
>                                     Scott Becker
>                                     skot@compumedia.com

Hi Scott,

Does that mean you have now BUILT two SMOT ramps and they BOTH work?

If so, excellent work.

If not, WHY NOT?


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 22:42:01 1997
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Message-ID: <3387CF6A.763C@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:04:34 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Magnets for simple OU Toy
References: <01BC682B.73268D00@chiltepine.ucdavis.edu> <33878C87.61E0@ix.netcom.com>
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Dave DeLeo wrote:
> 
> Has anyone found a good supplier for magnets....
> 
> I have been using radio shack ceramics for my ramps but they are not the
> same size as in the plans.  Also they are expensive and the plans
> recommend 64 per ramp, I have been using about 16 per ramp.  Edmund
> Scientific didn't have any in 4x10x13mm at least not in the catalog I
> have (1996-97 optics and optical instruments catalog).  I would like to
> build this as soon as possible so if someone could help me get my hands
> on these I would appreciate it.
> 
> Dave DeLeo

Hi Dave,

You can use different size magnets.  The only problem is the ramp length
is designed for the mag field produced by the magnet arrays being 104mm
long.  If you alter the length of the arrays, you will have to alter the
length of the ramp.  The magnet arrays should be 13-15mm longer than the
ramp.  This allows for max energy transfer to the ball as it climbs the
ramp and puts the exit point in the "sweet spot" at the end of the
ramp's mag field.

By the way, my magnets are ceramic fridge magnets and they cost me $5
($3.50 US) for 100 (One Hundred).  Nothing fancy, just cheap and easy to
use to build different size arrays.


Best Regards.
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 22:44:26 1997
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Message-ID: <3387CD7C.607C@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:56:20 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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References: <970524182549_55381434@emout13.mail.aol.com>
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HLafonte@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Could you give the the web address of Jean-Louis so I could see the drawings?
> Thanks, Butch LaFonte

Hi Butch,

Its at :

 http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/smot1.htm

Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 22:47:41 1997
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Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:54:40 +0930
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Tixif@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Since my local hobby store wasn't open yet, I' had to play with the materials
> I have:
> 1.  Track made from 2 notebook binders space ~13mm apart.
> 2.  Binder edges resting on a calculator ~10mm thick for the rise of the
> ramp.
> 3.  A mouse track ball still with the rubber grip insulation around it (high
> friction!)
> 4.  A pushpin to keep the ball from rolling back down during startup, stuck
> into the binders ~66mm from the exit end.
> 5.  4 ceramic mags (3/8"X3/4"X1 13/16").
> The ball WILL roll up the ramp and drop out of the field.
> Shawn

Hi Shawn,

Good work.  There are many variations possible.  The SMOT plans will
allow multi ramps to be easily linked.

Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 23:13:21 1997
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Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:31:39 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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References: <970524124430_843036541@emout11.mail.aol.com>
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HLafonte@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Greg,
>     Do you have any video of your ou device working for extended periods of
> time?
> Butch LaFonte

Hi Butch,

Of the RMOD (working on the patent) device, Yes (But not for publication
yet).

Of the SMOT, No.  But you will soon have a working device to play with.

Started building yet?


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 23:19:15 1997
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From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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--------------3264381972D9
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John Logajan wrote:
> 
> Francis J. Stenger wrote:
> > My hat's off to Greg Watson and Jean-Louis Naudin for a CLEAR-AS-A-BELL
> > description of the simple OU toy!
> 
> Greg's simplification of the Hartman device is impressive.
> 
> But allow me to continue to play the doubter.  In Jean-Louis Naudin's
> stills and AVI animation, the "exit" platform (in black) is obviously
> lower than the start position on the raised rails.  Therefore there
> is yet no anomaly apparent when the ball rolls off-frame in the
> animated AVI on the black exit platform.  (The ball has effectively
> fallen to a lower gravitational potential, which fully explains
> its "pull" though the magentic "bump" and its gain in kinetic
> energy.)
> 
> --
>  - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -

Hi John,

The SMOT ramp as designed was not intended to be a class 3 ramp (Roll
away).  That's tricky to build and adjust.  I have posted my theory on
how this happens before, but I have attached the Gif again.

This design is intended to be a starting point to allow others the
chance to build and play with mag ramps.  

In Phase 2 we will build 4 ramps and link them all together.  When you
SEE there is NO slow down as the ball moves through the ramps, you will
start to BELIEVE where we are going.

When we get to Phase 4, the ball WILL go round and round!

Have you built your SMOT ramp yet?

By the way, I can't get into Jean-Louis's server to look at his
pictures.  Seems to be very busy!!!!!!


Best regards,
 Greg

--------------3264381972D9
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--------------3264381972D9--


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 23:32:24 1997
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Message-ID: <3387D953.282B@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:46:51 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, JNaudin509@aol.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT v1.0 - TESTS PASSED
References: <970524114826_1889007739@emout12.mail.aol.com>
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JNaudin509@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi Greg,
> 
> Today, I have built and tested SUCCESSFULLY your SMOT v1.0.
> You will find some pictures and a video ( AVI ) of my experiment.
> No measurement has been made, today.
> 
> I have updated my web site with this pictures and video at :
>      http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/smot1jln.htm
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Jean-Louis Naudin

Hi Jean-Louis,

Thanks for the excellent work.  I can't get into your server.  Seems a
lot of people are interested.  That's really good.  Hope the server
survives.

I am still trying to get photos of MY unit to post.

Phase 2 is next.  We will need to build and link 4 ramps together and
show all the doubters that the ball doesn't slow down as it moves
through the ramps.  That's when EVERYONE will start jumping up a down as
it will then be very clear that a linked loop will work.

Phase 3 will see a curved (45 deg) ramp.  Tricker to adjust, but after
building and linking 4 ramps, not too hard.

Phase 4 will link 8 x 45 deg ramps and its all over except for the
shouting match and fighting over how and why it works and who was and
wasn't wrong.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 23:44:51 1997
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Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 23:31:44 -0700 (PDT)
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From: skot@compumedia.com (Scott Becker)
Subject: Re: Score
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>Scott Becker wrote:
>> 
>>             Got it working      Couldn't get it working
>> Phase I            2                       0
>> Phase II
>> 
>>                                     Scott Becker
>>                                     skot@compumedia.com
>
>Hi Scott,
>
>Does that mean you have now BUILT two SMOT ramps and they BOTH work?
>
>If so, excellent work.
>
>If not, WHY NOT?
>
>
>Best Regards,
> Greg
>
>

Actually I was counting the number of people who succeeded
in building phase one ( two for two is really good for the
first twelve hours ). If we get through phase 4 and still
have a majority of success then not only will your plan
designing skills be established but also over-unity operation
will be undeniably proven ( some will always deny it ).

Next will be the argument about where the energy is coming
from: is energy not really conserved or is it coming from
the aether. As far as I'm concerned it doesn't really matter.
As long as we can build usable power!

                                    Scott Becker
                                    skot@compumedia.com


/********************************************************/
/* I don't think that energy is conserved, but it       */
/* doesn't matter if useful over-unity operation works! */
/********************************************************/

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 24 23:48:58 1997
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Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:00:24 +0930
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Hamdi Ucar wrote:
> 
> Francis J. Stenger wrote:
> >
> > My hat's off to Greg Watson and Jean-Louis Naudin for a CLEAR-AS-A-BELL
> > description of the simple OU toy!  It's refreshing to see such an
> > HONEST EFFORT TO COMMUNICATE where an OU device is involved.  Greg knows
> > I tend to be a skeptic in this area, but he may be about ready to make
> > me eat my shorts(from the dirty bag - not clean!)!  Keep up the GOOD and
> > HONEST work!  (Thanks for not making me study a patent!!)
> >
> > Frank Stenger
> 
> Warning! There is trick on this SMOT!:
> 
> The device may work anyway with or without exhibiting OU. The trick is
> that is very difficult to test it whether it is working in a OU mode or
> not.
> 
> I believe that this issue is known well by Greg Watson, but anybody will
> not be aware of this and unconditionally they might believe that their
> own build device is an OU. And the problem may rise when a third party
> proof it is not.
> 
> Criteria is already explained by Greg Watson by the letter:
> 
> Re:             Simple OU Toy
> Resent-Date:    Fri, 23 May 1997 01:27:42 -0700 (PDT)
> Resent-From:    vortex-l@eskimo.com
> Date:           Fri, 23 May 1997 17:50:12 +0930
> From:           Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
> Organization:   Greg Watson Consulting
> To:             vortex-l@eskimo.com
> CC:             freenrg-l@eskimo.com
> 
> 
> For the OU effect ball will exit with enough energy for getting free
> from magnetic attraction. The bonus will be the self staring energy plus
> the final energy at the exit remaing after freeing from attractions of
> magnets.
> Simply dropping from the ramp is not sign the OU!

I agree fully.  AND I have stated this before.

> As summary, gravitational + magnetic potential energy on the ball must
> be higher on the exit. Less the magnetic attaction is more the magnetic
> potentional energy.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Hamdi Ucar
> 
> Everybody should know it!

Hi Hamdi,

The Phase 1 SMOT device is not clearly OU.  It is not designed to be
so.  After we finish with Phase 4 (linking 4 ramps) and ALL can see the
ball doesn't slow down while moving through the ramps, however the final
destination will seem VERY clear.

Have you started building your Phase 1 SMOT device yet?


Best Regards,
 Greg

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- ------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

freenrg-digest Digest				Volume 97 : Issue 176

Today's Topics:
	 Re: Simple OU Toy
	 The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been updated
	 Re: Simple OU Toy
	 Re: Comments from Weird Science (fwd)
	 Looking for the lost magnetism
	 Unidentified subject!
	 Re: diagrams/specs
	 Re: Comments from Weird Science (fwd)
	 Watson/Teamwork
	 Re: diagrams/specs
	 Crude Success
	 video
	 RE: Simple OU Toy
	 Fwd: Third party testing
	 Re : Watson/Teamwork
	 Re: regarding over unity ramp
	 Re: Watson/Teamwork
	 Re: diagrams/specs
	 Re: Re : Watson/Teamwork
	 Re: Re : Watson/Teamwork
	 Magnets for simple OU Toy
	 Re: Simple OU Toy
	 Re: Watson/Teamwork
	 Score
	 Re: O/U Device & Gary Effect
	 Re: Magnets for simple OU Toy
	 Watson's Amazing (re)Discovery
	 Re: Re : Watson/Teamwork
	 Re: diagrams/specs
	 Re: Fwd: Third party testing

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 07:06:20 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy
Message-ID: <33860DD4.37A3@microtronics.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Greg -
> 
>   > With graphite!
> 
> That's lubrication. I mean *polish* the rails. Very fine abrasives in
> stages arriving at a mirror flat edge surface where the surface of the ball
> rides. There should be no rumbling or other rough sound as the balls travel
> on the raceways. If those rails have their edges flattened nicely, there
> should be almost no significant sound from it at all except where there's
> impact from a falling ball off the end of a ramp, and it shouldn't even
> need lube. Not necessary I suppose with the SMOT if it works; working at
> all is the thing.

I run the side of a pencil over the side of the Alum "U" channel.  Seems
to remove most small bumps and dents.  The graphite stays on the rails
and provides dry lubrication.  You are right, noise is wasted energy. 
My first stage SMOT is fairly quiet.

> But wouldn't it be fun or useful to eliminate as much friction as possible
> to see what the system will do - like accelerate a bit over the first few
> revolutions? 

The initial SMOT devices are NOT rotary.  That will happen later as you
learn the characteristics of mag ramps.  One small step at a time.


> Does your RMOD accelerate a bit from a minimal initial starting push?

My current RMOD plexi-glass unit is under continual torque.  It self
starts.

The SMOT device does accelerate as it starts to climd the ramp.  It will
self start as well.

> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI

Hi Rick,

The plans for the Phase 1 device will be out by mid week, maybe sooner.

I have e-mailed the original drawings to Jean-Louis.

Build a ramp and gives us some feedback on reducing friction.  I have
found that friction is a MAJOR source of energy loss and the biggest
cause of unreliable / unstable operation.

I have responded to both mail groups in this corro.  That will be my
standard reply unless you request your corro to be kept private.  I am
doing this to ensure we all get the benefit of all of our input and
ideas.


Best regards,
 Greg

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:42:59 -0800
From: pgb@padrak.com (Patrick Bailey)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been updated
Message-Id: <v02140b0aafac114d25fb@[205.149.162.154]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been updated at:

http://www.padrak.com/ine/

Most New Data Files are at:   http://www.padrak.com/ine/index.shtml#INE_RECENT

All the revisions are in the file:    http://www.padrak.com/ine/REVISIONS.html

- -------------     ------------------------------------------------------------
Date Included     Additions, Expansions, or Revisions
- -------------     ------------------------------------------------------------

May 23, 1997      Added:  NEN TOC Vol. 5, No. 1, May 1997
                     Promotion By Destruction - On Cold Fusion
                     The New Energy Spectrum
                     Fusion Briefings: Playing The Lose-Lose Game
                     Gene Mallove In The News
                     R&D Magazine Looks At Cold Fusion
                     Einstein Would Have Called It "Cold Fission"
                     New Patterson-Cravens Patent
                     Finnish Gravity Research Summary in Nexus
                     What Are Characteristics Of The Aether?
                     Electrostatics Newsletter
                     Apologies To Dr. Bockris Letter
                     Letter From Don Kelly on Advanced Energy Projects
                     Letter From Steve Smith Regarding P&F and Cold Fusion
                  Added:
                     Steven Mark's Device: Known Data from AU
                     Orgone Energy Seminars Offered in Aug. 1997
                     Joseph Newman's Electric Lift Device Experiment
                     A Compilation of Anti-Gravity Articles And References
                     New Plasmiod Pictures and sites from Edward Lewis
                        His new web site, new ELEWIS9 pictures link, and
                        a new link (moved) for his ELEWIS8 page.
                  Updated:  Fabulous Facts File,
                     Websites, People, Organizations, etc.
                  Site Counter = 106,547 !
                     More than some other "adult sites"!
                  HAPPY 4TH ISNE!  (I hope someone demos something useful...)

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:41:55 -1000
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde@worldnet.att.net>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy
Message-Id: <l03102802afac2198eff7@[207.147.196.141]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 Greg -

   >  Build a ramp and gives us some feedback on
   >  reducing friction.  I have found that friction
   >  is a MAJOR source of energy loss and the
   >  biggest cause of unreliable / unstable
   >  operation.

I'm in.

   >
   >  I have responded to both mail groups in this
   >  corro.  That will be my standard reply
   >  unless you request your corro to be kept
   >  private.  I am doing this to ensure we all get
   >  the benefit of all of our input and ideas.

Cool. I thought I *was* on list, until after I sent my reply I saw the
reply button had resulted in an offlist message.

- - Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:30:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tony Rusi <windski@eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Comments from Weird Science (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.970523222824.20899A-100000@eskimo.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

On Wed, 21 May 1997, William Beaty wrote:

> see below
>=20
> .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,...........................=
=2E.
> William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623
> EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~bill=
b/
> Seattle, WA 98117  billb@eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page
>=20
>=20
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 07:20:29 -0700
> From: Arlen <arlenbass@AOL.COM>
> To: billb@eskimo.com
> Subject: Comments from Weird Science
>=20
> --- category ---
> ok
>=20
> --- comments ---
> \TROMBLY\  MAY 16, 1997   FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE, GLOBAL PEACE PROJECT,add=
ressing OUR GLOBAL ENVIRONMENTAL EMERGENCY, PROBLEMS AND SOLUTIONSContact: =
 David Crockett Williams, Santa Barbara Coordinator, 805-961-2701Addressing=
 Our Global Environmental Emergency which threatens all Life on Earth, Adam=
 Trombly is giving his first radio interview in three years on this Sunday,=
 May 18th, from 9PM to midnight, locally on KTMS and nationally via Jeff Re=
nse's syndicated radio show which can be accessed with sound card by intern=
et at his web page <www.endoftheline.com>.  Trombly is a physicist and clim=
atologist at The Institute for Advanced Studies in Aspen, Colorado, which h=
e founded with Buckminster Fuller.  Adam Trombly is an internationally ackn=
owledged expert in the fields of Physics, Atmospheric Dynamics, Geophysics,=
 Rotating and Resonating Electromagnetic Systems, and Environmental Global =
Modeling.  Taking the advice of his friend and mentor, R. Buckminster Fulle=
r, Adam has maintained a "synergistic, global view" within a multi-discipli=
nary scientific background.  From this perspective Adam offers unique insig=
hts into the changes humankind has affected on our environment, and the adj=
ustments our future requires of us now.With other physicists at NASA, by th=
e late 1970's, Trombly became aware of what is now known as the zero-point =
energy field from anomalous planetary energy measurements.  While then cons=
idering the potential of tapping this energy field, inherent in three dimen=
sional space itself, with a new alternative zero-point energy technology, h=
e became aware of the "n-Machine" experiments done in Santa Barbara by Bruc=
e DePalma in 1979. Recognizing that this was a zero-point device, he applie=
d himself to the principle and shortly developed an improved configuration =
called the "closed path homopolar generator" and disclosed full details in =
an international patent which has inspired subsequent proof-of-concept arou=
nd the world.  Trombly's name, along with Bruce DePalma, Edgar Mitchell, an=
d George Ainsworth-Land, appeared in a July 1981 Satellite News article pre=
dicting use of this generator in satellites.  In 1985, Dr. Yonas, the Chief=
 Scientist for the Strategic Defense Initiative, testified in US Congressio=
nal budget hearings that this technology (the "homopolar" generator as Mich=
ael Faraday called it in 1831) was a "critical technology" for the Strategi=
c Defense Initiative ("Star Wars" weapons).  In subsequent years evidence i=
ndicates that this technology is in place in orbiting "rail gun" military s=
atellites.  Trombly for some time was under a Federal Court gag order not t=
o talk about this technology after he found it under covert development for=
 US submarine propulsion.  Risking and surviving assasination attempts to s=
hut him up, Adam has courageously decided (after several years hermetic lif=
estyle) to come once again to the forefront of public presentation of infor=
mation regarding the seriousness of our global environmental crisis and how=
 this new technology can help save our planet.We are calling for the immedi=
ate establishment of a GLOBAL ENVIRONMENTAL EMERGENCY RESPONSE PLAN AND TEA=
M to implement solutions to this crisis. Adam has adjusted his schedule to =
come to Santa Barbara to take part in our June 1 briefing for the science a=
dvisor to His Holiness Dalai Lama, and has been invited to be one of the ke=
y participants in the Public Briefing on these matters June 2, 7PM, at UCSB=
 Chem 1179, along with Brian O'Leary, former science & energy policy adviso=
r to four US Presidential candidates and author of a book about these zero-=
point "free energy technologies" called "Miracle in The Void", and with inv=
estigative journalist Jeane Manning, author of "The Coming Energy Revolutio=
n".For more details check out websites for Trombly at <www.projectearth.com=
>, Bruce DePalma at <www.depalma.org.nz>, & O'Leary <www.maui.net./~kamapua=
a>The United States, through a 1952 Secrecy Order obtained under the Freedo=
m of Information Act, has been suppressing the public development of this c=
ritical technology in the US.  However, Japan is putting millions of dollar=
s into its development and negotiations are now under way, if the US policy=
 doesn't change, to build a $2.5 billion manufacturing plant in Germany to =
produce a state-of-the-art home unit to allow individual homes to disconnec=
t from utility power grids.  Larger devices are also possible such as ones =
to replace the electricity output of the three coal-fired electric power pl=
ants in the Four Corners area which reportedly produce more acid rain pollu=
tions than the top five US cities combined, and whose coal strip-mining is =
the root of the genocidal US policy of the continuing forced removal of the=
 native American people on Arizona'a Black Mesa where Big Mountain is locat=
ed.  --RAA29329.864000851/coyote.rain.org--=20
>=20
> --- money ---
> yes donate 5.00
>=20
> --- money2 ---
> $10.00
>=20
>=20
does anyone know how this homopolar generator works? This is a real
technology. I am bummed that four corners might close, it's cooling pond
is a destination windsurfing site.

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:41:30 +0300
From: Lev Robert <Bushi@multinet.net.il>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Looking for the lost magnetism
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970523194130.0068f650@multinet.net.il>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi all
I have read recently that an old Indian Emperor named ASHOKA ordered his
scientist to enclosed everything they knew in a book. The name of this book
was "Nine unknown Men". One of the books was called "The Secrets of
Gravitation". So if someone could find this book all our magnetic and
gravity problems would be solved.
Anyone heard about the books???
Robert
BUSHILEV

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:03:02 -0700
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Unidentified subject!
Message-ID: <01BC67D5.DD783970@chiltepine.ucdavis.edu>

Greg Watson wrote:

 >Build a ramp and gives us some feedback on reducing friction.  I have
 >found that friction is a MAJOR source of energy loss and the biggest
 >cause of unreliable / unstable operation.

Might there be one point where friction could be an aid? Just at the edge 
where the ball is about to fall off the end of the ramp, a *tiny* point of 
friction to brake the forward momentum, its angular momentum (because it's 
been spinning) carrying it over the edge?


Dan Quickert
dequickert@ucdavis.edu
(916) 756-0575

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:54:41 -1000
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde@worldnet.att.net>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: diagrams/specs
Message-Id: <l03102800afac5a17360e@[207.147.196.141]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Evan -

   >  If you are able to locate drawings/specs for
   >  the above devices I would be happy to look at
   >  them.

I found drawings but no text in one of those bizarre books by D.H.
Childress : "The Fantastic Inventions of Nikola Tesla". According to this
work, Tesla and Marconi discovered the secret to long life, faked their
deaths, and are now living together somewhere down in South America
building UFOs for the secret world government. Maybe they have a web site
by now? Ahem...uh, there's another book out which claims to list *all* his
patented inventions, but I don't have it. Compiled by Ratzlaff, $40 from
the International Tesla Society.

I could try to scan the pictures from the pages of the book I have and send
them, but I'm afraid the details won't come through well enough to get a
useful look. Feel like trying that?

Anyone else know if this patent (#382,279) may be found somewhere online?

- - Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:16:16 -1000
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde@worldnet.att.net>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Comments from Weird Science (fwd)
Message-Id: <l03102802afac61c5040b@[207.147.205.46]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Toni Rusi wrote:

   >  does anyone know how this homopolar
   >  generator works? This is a real technology. I
   >  am bummed that four corners might close,
   >  it's cooling pond is a destination windsurfing
   >  site.

Windsurfing works for me, but I don't think any homopolars have been shown
to be overunity. And Trombly was not listed on the "Sightings on Radio" web
site <http://www.sightings.com/ > as having been on the radio on the May
18th, or any other radio show.

- - Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 08:51:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tixif@aol.com
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Watson/Teamwork
Message-ID: <970524085129_-397686377@emout01.mail.aol.com>

Having anticipated Gregs construction plans for weeks, I saw them this
morning on Jean-Louis' page.  It was about 6 AM and I am ready to start
building.  I am looking up all my sources for materials at this time and will
post local resource suggestions if anyone is interested.  In addition, anyone
in the Austin area that would like to put their heads together is welcome to
contact me.  And those on the list might consider the same for their local
area.
You guys are amazing!
Shawn

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:06:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: diagrams/specs
Message-Id: <199705241406.KAA06499@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Content-Type: text

Hey, it could list all of his PATENTED inventions!  Just, he did not
patent most of his good ones.  They were all in his head.

I have a list of all the Tesla books around at:
http://frognet.net/~cantino/tesla/tesla.html

> 
> Evan -
> 
>    >  If you are able to locate drawings/specs for
>    >  the above devices I would be happy to look at
>    >  them.
> 
> I found drawings but no text in one of those bizarre books by D.H.
> Childress : "The Fantastic Inventions of Nikola Tesla". According to this
> work, Tesla and Marconi discovered the secret to long life, faked their
> deaths, and are now living together somewhere down in South America
> building UFOs for the secret world government. Maybe they have a web site
> by now? Ahem...uh, there's another book out which claims to list *all* his
> patented inventions, but I don't have it. Compiled by Ratzlaff, $40 from
> the International Tesla Society.
> 
> I could try to scan the pictures from the pages of the book I have and send
> them, but I'm afraid the details won't come through well enough to get a
> useful look. Feel like trying that?
> 
> Anyone else know if this patent (#382,279) may be found somewhere online?
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI
> 
> 
> 


- -- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:52:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tixif@aol.com
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Crude Success
Message-ID: <970524105239_-1130233143@emout06.mail.aol.com>

Since my local hobby store wasn't open yet, I' had to play with the materials
I have:
1.  Track made from 2 notebook binders space ~13mm apart.
2.  Binder edges resting on a calculator ~10mm thick for the rise of the
ramp.
3.  A mouse track ball still with the rubber grip insulation around it (high
friction!)
4.  A pushpin to keep the ball from rolling back down during startup, stuck
into the binders ~66mm from the exit end.
5.  4 ceramic mags (3/8"X3/4"X1 13/16").
The ball WILL roll up the ramp and drop out of the field.
Shawn

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:44:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: HLafonte@aol.com
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: video
Message-ID: <970524124430_843036541@emout11.mail.aol.com>

Greg, 
    Do you have any video of your ou device working for extended periods of
time?
Butch LaFonte

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:15:38 -0700
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Simple OU Toy
Message-ID: <01BC682B.73268D00@chiltepine.ucdavis.edu>

Saw the plans for the SMOT late last night on Jean-Louis Naudin's website.

Immediately reconfigured one of my test rigs to see how the design works. 
 Length, height of the ramp and the field contour adjustment generally in 
concept with the posted design, but used parts on hand - different size 
magnets (4mm x 20mm x 25mm), steel bar twice too long, wooden plant pot 
labels for spacers. With all that variation from the specs, it worked first 
time, with a lift of 18mm. Some previous experience with the ramps 
influenced that result, of course.

Positioned a previously working ramp (of different design) at the new one's 
exit (second ramp's entrance at the same elevation as the first ramp's 
entrance); the ball ran through both ramps after minor horizontal 
adjustment at their linkage point.

Will try to get materials to more exactly duplicate the posted design soon. 
Meanwhile, I'd say that the plans are good if I can go so far from the 
specs and still have it work so well. Of course there's also the 
possibility that it wouldn't work without my changes, but from my 
experience the differences in my quick mock-up were in the direction away 
from optimal. I'd opine that the design works, within a wide margin of 
construction variability.

Dan Quickert
dequickert@ucdavis.edu
916-756-0575

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:02:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: HLafonte@aol.com
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Fwd: Third party testing
Message-ID: <970524130231_-431223555@emout05.mail.aol.com>

- ---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    Third party testing
Date:    97-05-24 13:01:13 EDT
From:    HLafonte
To:      newman-l@emachine.com

Evan,
    Do you think Joe would let the Academy For New Energy  test the Energy
Machine ? They are " pro overunity " , and I believe they would be objective
in their testing. By  " pro overunity " I mean they believe that there are
some devices out there that are over unity but they have not tested any to
date that are.
Butch LaFonte

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:07:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: JNaudin509@aol.com
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
cc: Tixif@aol.com
Subject: Re : Watson/Teamwork
Message-ID: <970524130725_69948855@emout20.mail.aol.com>

On 24/05/1997 13:54:19  , you wrote :

<< Suj :	Watson/Teamwork
 Date :	24/05/1997 13:54:19  
 From:	Tixif@aol.com
 Resent-from:	freenrg-l@eskimo.com
 Reply-to:	freenrg-l@eskimo.com
 To:	freenrg-l@eskimo.com
 
 Having anticipated Gregs construction plans for weeks, I saw them this
 morning on Jean-Louis' page.  It was about 6 AM and I am ready to start
 building.  I am looking up all my sources for materials at this time and
will
 post local resource suggestions if anyone is interested >>

Hi Shawn,

You will find the pictures and the video of my SMOT V1.0 device at :
    http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/smot1jln.htm

Sincerely,

Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:39:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: Michael C Slivinski <sunbrite@mymail.net>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: regarding over unity ramp
Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970524133621.3eafceaa@pop.mymail.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello all, 
wouldn't the OU ramp that has been demonstrated qualify for the prise monies
offered by groups offering a demo of it. also I beleive even the Sceptics
group, (not sure of the name) is offering a nice purse. Once demonstrated
and monies claimed, of course could fund further research.
just thoughts
Mike Slivinski  sunbrite@mymail.net
http://www.myhomepage.net/~sunbrite/

God helps those, that help themselves... 
so they may help others! MCS

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 18:40:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: JWGSA@aol.com
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Watson/Teamwork
Message-ID: <970524184032_-995459600@emout08.mail.aol.com>

Shawn,

I am in San Antonio and pass through Austin now and them.  

Jack

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 16:30:01 -0600 (MDT)
From: "John R. Tooker" <jrtooker@freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: diagrams/specs
Message-Id: <Pine.A32.3.93.970524162817.35074B-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sat, 24 May 1997, Science wig. sig. wrote:

> 
> Hey, it could list all of his PATENTED inventions!  Just, he did not
> patent most of his good ones.  They were all in his head.
> 
> I have a list of all the Tesla books around at:
> http://frognet.net/~cantino/tesla/tesla.html
You might wish to check out the books on Tesla by George Trinkhaus (sp)
through High Voltage Press. Those books cover some of his less well known
work.
John

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 18:25:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: HLafonte@aol.com
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Re : Watson/Teamwork
Message-ID: <970524182549_55381434@emout13.mail.aol.com>

Could you give the the web address of Jean-Louis so I could see the drawings?
Thanks, Butch LaFonte

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:43:37 -0400
From: David DeLeo <ddeleo@ix.netcom.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Re : Watson/Teamwork
Message-ID: <33878B39.B91@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

HLafonte@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Could you give the the web address of Jean-Louis so I could see the drawings?
> Thanks, Butch LaFonte

The address for Jean-Louis's overunity site is:
http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/index.htm

Dave DeLeo

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:49:11 -0400
From: Dave DeLeo <ddeleo@ix.netcom.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Magnets for simple OU Toy
Message-ID: <33878C87.61E0@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Has anyone found a good supplier for magnets....

I have been using radio shack ceramics for my ramps but they are not the
same size as in the plans.  Also they are expensive and the plans
recommend 64 per ramp, I have been using about 16 per ramp.  Edmund
Scientific didn't have any in 4x10x13mm at least not in the catalog I
have (1996-97 optics and optical instruments catalog).  I would like to
build this as soon as possible so if someone could help me get my hands
on these I would appreciate it.

Dave DeLeo
ddeleo@ix.netcom.com

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 09:05:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Randall <mrandall@earthlink.net>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Simple OU Toy
Message-Id: <199705241605.JAA16252@germany.it.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Greg Watson wrote:
>
>The plans for the Phase 1 device will be out by mid week, maybe sooner.
>
>I have e-mailed the original drawings to Jean-Louis.
>
>Build a ramp and gives us some feedback on reducing friction.  I have
>found that friction is a MAJOR source of energy loss and the biggest
>cause of unreliable / unstable operation.
>

Hi Greg,

The plans for the Phase 1 device looks complete. Jean-Louis did a great job
of drawing them up and posting the plans at his site:

http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/index.htm

Thanks Greg and Jean-Louis!

With this kind of detailed information the probability of successful
duplication should increase. A list of suppliers would be needed next. And
then those that are "skilled in the art" can assemble a unit for sale for
people that don't have the time to build one but would still like to
experiment with.

Looking forward to the next Phases!

Best Regards,
Michael Randall

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 23:00:55 -0400
From: Dave DeLeo <ddeleo@ix.netcom.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Watson/Teamwork
Message-ID: <3387AB67.5F2@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Tixif@aol.com wrote:
>And those on the list might consider the same for their local
> area.
> You guys are amazing!
> Shawn

Maybe we can use IRC so that we can discuss things in real time.  Might
be more productive than email...

Just something to consider,
Dave DeLeo

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:19:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: skot@compumedia.com (Scott Becker)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Score
Message-Id: <199705250319.UAA13112@ganymede.compumedia.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

            Got it working      Couldn't get it working
Phase I            2                       0
Phase II


                                    Scott Becker
                                    skot@compumedia.com


/********************************************************/
/* I don't think that energy is conserved, but it       */
/* doesn't matter if useful over-unity operation works! */
/********************************************************/

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 19:44:19 PST
From: tv@juno.com (Tim D Vaughan)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Cc: eric@voicenet.com
Subject: Re: O/U Device & Gary Effect
Message-ID: <19970314.204412.11582.0.tv@juno.com>

Hi Eric,

I posted the Wesley Gary documents on a web page at
<   http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4810 >

It is from the orginal article of 1879.

Tim
( tv@juno.com )

On Sat, 24 May 97 00:42:47 -0500 Eric Krieg -voicenet <eric@voicenet.com>
writes:
>Could you please write me up a paragraph to post on the work of Wesley 
>Gary
>to post on my PM FE history page?
>
>http://www.voicenet.com/~eric/dennis4.html
>
>eric
>-------- REPLY, Original message follows --------
>
>Date: Sunday, 02-Mar-97 08:00 PM
>
>From: Tim D Vaughan            \ Internet:    (tv@juno.com)
>To:   vortex-l@eskimo.com      \ Internet:    (vortex-l@eskimo.com)
>cc:   freenrg-l@eskimo.com     \ Internet:    (freenrg-l@eskimo.com)
>
>Subject: O/U Device & Gary Effect
>
>Since Mr. Watson's device is apparently based on the same principle as 
>that
>of Wesley Gary (1874), is it not reasonable to re-examine this 
>remarkable
>but ignored invention from the 19th centrury ?   Even though the 
>inventions
>of Wesley Gary and Greg Watson generate only  flee power, they should 
>not be
>dismissed as just toys.  The GARY EFFECT  (or Gary-Watson Effect) can
>certtainly be enhanced to any level of power  when it is better 
>understood.
>
>Consider the invention of Hans Coler as a possible example of such
>advancement.
>
>I think Beatty's electronic think-tank is working  !
>
>Tim Vaughan
>(tv@juno.com)
>

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:00:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: skot@compumedia.com (Scott Becker)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Magnets for simple OU Toy
Message-Id: <199705250400.VAA13781@ganymede.compumedia.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Has anyone found a good supplier for magnets....
>
>I have been using radio shack ceramics for my ramps but they are not the
>same size as in the plans.  Also they are expensive and the plans
>recommend 64 per ramp, I have been using about 16 per ramp.  Edmund
>Scientific didn't have any in 4x10x13mm at least not in the catalog I
>have (1996-97 optics and optical instruments catalog).  I would like to
>build this as soon as possible so if someone could help me get my hands
>on these I would appreciate it.
>
>Dave DeLeo
>ddeleo@ix.netcom.com
>

Edmund Scientific has a thinner catalog with more educational stuff and
twice as many magnets. The section of ceramic magnets has many sizes and
package prices ( e.g. 30ea. for $15 ).

                                    Scott Becker
                                    skot@compumedia.com


/********************************************************/
/* I don't think that energy is conserved, but it       */
/* doesn't matter if useful over-unity operation works! */
/********************************************************/

- ------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:50:07 GMT
From: tim.vaughan@trex.ccc-infonet.edu (Tim Vaughan)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Watson's Amazing (re)Discovery
Message-Id: <864532207@trex.ccc-infonet.edu>

Thanks Greg for making this available for all of us
play with !!  So simple, yet so profound !

The Simple Overunity Toy is demonstrating a very
interesting phenomena.  Ferromagnetism probably
has the inherent ability to cohere or organize
fluctuation energy.  But whatever is making the
ball go round the track can be scaled up in a
different form to produce large amounts of energy
like Hans Coler did in 1930's in Germany.

Let us not let Greg Watson's rediscovery of this
important principle be ignored like it was in
1879 with Wesley Gary's device.

History is in the making here !  Please keep posting
your observations on the freenrg-l as it becomes
available to all and is recorded for posterity.

Thanks to Jean-Louis Naudin for the excellent web
page describing it with great drawing, pictures,
and a video:
< http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/smot1.htm >


Tim Vaughan
( tv@juno.com )


CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:51:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Randall <mrandall@earthlink.net>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Re : Watson/Teamwork
Message-Id: <199705250351.UAA05459@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Jean-Louis,

Nice video and photo's of your Phase 1 unit! I see that your unit also
worked with different magnets. Can you describe your unit like:

- - What was the lenght and size of the aluminum(?) ramp, and height at the
end point?
- - Size of your magnets and steel ball used? 
- - Does the ball exit at the same level as the entry level?
- - At end drop did the ball roll away?

This would help others in designing their units with more choices from
available material sources.

Best Regards,
Michael Randall

At 01:07 PM 5/24/97 -0400, you wrote:
>On 24/05/1997 13:54:19  , you wrote :
>
><< Suj :	Watson/Teamwork
> Date :	24/05/1997 13:54:19  
>

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:15:47 -0600
From: Shane Hall <schall@it.sait.ab.ca>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: diagrams/specs
Message-id: <3387BCF2.870D758E@mail.it.sait.ab.ca>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Hi everyone,

    I think we'd all be interested in Nikola's free energy machine.  The
Cosmic Ray Collector!

    Does anyone have any info on it?  I've only heard rumors of it.

ScHall

Science wig. sig. wrote:

> Hey, it could list all of his PATENTED inventions!  Just, he did not
> patent most of his good ones.  They were all in his head.
>
> I have a list of all the Tesla books around at:
> http://frognet.net/~cantino/tesla/tesla.html
>
> >
> > Evan -
> >
> >    >  If you are able to locate drawings/specs for
> >    >  the above devices I would be happy to look at
> >    >  them.
> >
> > I found drawings but no text in one of those bizarre books by D.H.
> > Childress : "The Fantastic Inventions of Nikola Tesla". According to
> this
> > work, Tesla and Marconi discovered the secret to long life, faked
> their
> > deaths, and are now living together somewhere down in South America
> > building UFOs for the secret world government. Maybe they have a web
> site
> > by now? Ahem...uh, there's another book out which claims to list
> *all* his
> > patented inventions, but I don't have it. Compiled by Ratzlaff, $40
> from
> > the International Tesla Society.
> >
> > I could try to scan the pictures from the pages of the book I have
> and send
> > them, but I'm afraid the details won't come through well enough to
> get a
> > useful look. Feel like trying that?
> >
> > Anyone else know if this patent (#382,279) may be found somewhere
> online?
> >
> > - Rick Monteverde
> > Honolulu, HI
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> +-----Andrew
> Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
> |   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html
> |
> |   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/
> |
> +
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
> |
> |
> |   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics
> |
> |   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **
> |
> |   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **
> |
> |
> |
> +
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------+

- ------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:05:29 -0600
From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: Third party testing
Message-Id: <v02130504afad71ce813f@[153.34.204.19]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>---------------------
>Forwarded message:
>Subj:    Third party testing
>Date:    97-05-24 13:01:13 EDT
>From:    HLafonte
>To:      newman-l@emachine.com
>
>Evan,
>    Do you think Joe would let the Academy For New Energy  test the Energy
>Machine ? They are " pro overunity " , and I believe they would be objective
>in their testing. By  " pro overunity " I mean they believe that there are
>some devices out there that are over unity but they have not tested any to
>date that are.
>Butch LaFonte

Dear Butch,

Well, I staying at home (in New Orleans) "minding the fort" so-to-speak, so
I don't honestly know what will transpire tomorrow (Sunday) in Denver.  I
know that Joe is planning a lecture and workshop to demonstrate the
technology.  Whether or not ANE has the ability to test and what
arrangements they can/will make with Joe -- that will be for them to decide
(if they wish)....I do know that a News Conference is planned by ANE on
Monday in Denver.  Positive announcements would be desirable.

For what it's worth (re anyone wishing to reach anyone at the Denver
Conference) the main telephone number is: (303) 779-1100.

Gyroscopically yours,

Evan Soule'
Director of Information
NEWMAN ENERGY PRODUCTS
josephnewman@earthlink.net
(504) 524-3063
P.O. Box 57684, New Orleans, LA 70157-7684
Websites: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/6087
          http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Newman/index.html



"The day when we shall know exactly what electricity is, will chronicle an
event probably greater than any other recorded in the human race."

                                     --- NIKOLA TESLA

- --------------------------------
End of freenrg-digest Digest V97 Issue #176
*******************************************

------------------------------ End of forwarded message 1

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 00:48:03 1997
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Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:36:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:33:10 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970525033308_-1431896744@emout01.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
cc: mrandall@earthlink.net, gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Subject: Re : Re: Re : Watson/Teamwork
Resent-Message-ID: <"CdRFV3.0.WJ.Xl-Xp"@mx2>
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On 25/05/1997 05:10:10  , Michael Randall wrote :

<< 
 Hi Jean-Louis,
 
 Nice video and photo's of your Phase 1 unit! I see that your unit also
 worked with different magnets. Can you describe your unit like:
 
 - What was the lenght and size of the aluminum(?) ramp, and height at the
 end point?
 - Size of your magnets and steel ball used? 
 - Does the ball exit at the same level as the entry level?
 - At end drop did the ball roll away?
 
 This would help others in designing their units with more choices from
 available material sources.
 
 Best Regards,
 Michael Randall
  >>

Hi Michael,

Concerning a source of magnets, I can give you an idea, you can find strong
ferrite magnet in cleaning tools for aquarium windows, it made with two
strong magnets recovered by a sheet of fiber, you need only to brake it and
extract the magnets, pay attention to the polarity of the magnet, magnetic
poles must be on the biggest surfaces. 

I give you my SMOT v1.0 specs, I shall put my own design soon in my web :

The size of his magnets is 25x40x10 mm ( for 3$ each ),
I have used 2 x 5 magnets for the two ramps,
The iron shield size is 20x25x2 mm, length 180 mm,
I have use a 20x20 mm square U aluminium channel, and a 25 mm steel ball,
The delta of the level between the input and the output is 12 mm.

As said Greg in a previous email, this the only first version of the SMOT.
The complete O/U setup is the SMOT V 4.0 in closed loop.

Today I work on my own design of a closedloop magnetic wheel, using this
magnetic regauging principle.....I have some interestings ideas and schemes
to share for whose are interested. 

Overunity yours,

Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846




From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 01:09:36 1997
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Message-ID: <3387D9FF.4A6B@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:49:43 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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Dan Quickert wrote:
> 
> Greg Watson wrote:
> 
>  >Build a ramp and gives us some feedback on reducing friction.  I have
>  >found that friction is a MAJOR source of energy loss and the biggest
>  >cause of unreliable / unstable operation.
> 
> Might there be one point where friction could be an aid? Just at the edge
> where the ball is about to fall off the end of the ramp, a *tiny* point of
> friction to brake the forward momentum, its angular momentum (because it's
> been spinning) carrying it over the edge?
> 
> Dan Quickert

Hi Dan,

You mean like a bur.  Good idea, will try it.  But it could be tricky to
duplicate and I am trying to KISS the whole project.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 01:22:20 1997
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--------------70CB6E933B0E
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Hi All,

Here is part 2.


Best Regards,
 Greg

--------------70CB6E933B0E
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 01:22:01 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA19622; Sun, 25 May 1997 01:21:35 -0700
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Message-ID: <3387F2D4.20C7@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:35:40 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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Subject: SMOT Phase 1 Plans (Part 4)
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Hi All,

More Photos.


Best Regards,
 Greg

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 01:22:50 1997
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--------------2C8D220453A5--


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 01:33:13 1997
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Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:31:08 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Subject: SMOT Phase 1 Plans (Part 1)
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--------------5CE7549A6DC6
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Hi All,

Here are the plans for the Phase 1 device.

You will need to master building this device before we proced to Phase 2
and link 4 ramps.

-------------------------------

The Greg Watson Simple Overunity Toy 

         S.M.O.T Version 1.0

created on 23 May 1997 - drawing by Jean-Louis Naudin 

       Last update 24 May 1997



CONSTRUCTION TIPS :

Make magnet spacing adjustment holes (for the straight pins) in the
balsa base every 0.5mm from the ALUM "U" channel. Alternate them up and
down by 0.5 mm. This helps to reduce the balsa becoming totally
destroyed by too many pin holes and aids returning to the same
adjustment that worked before. Normally adjustments in 0.5mm increments
are fine enough.

The Alum "U" channel is NOT fixed to the balsa base. The balse side
supports hold it firmly but still allow it to be moved for adjustment or
removed for polishing, ect.

"Polish" the side rails with a "HARD" lead pencil rubbed on the
supporting edges used by the ball until you can feel no bumps. Leave the
graphite on the edges. It really helps to reduce frictional losses.
Remember "NOISE" is energy lost.

The side magnet assys are made up of small 4x10x13mm ceramic fridge
magnets. They are
superglued togther. The 3x10x104mm steel bar serves as a support for
building and helps to even out the magnetic graduations in the ramp. The
steel bar should be outside the ramp. If placed on the inside, the field
will be weakened as the soft domains will allow the magnets field to
return to the other pole too easily. Treat the magnet assys with care,
the combined strength is quite high and the assys will suck to each
other over quite a distance and as the ferrite material is brittle, you
could easily break your magnets. 

ADJUSTMENTS :

RAMP and BALSA SUPPORT BASE :

The bend in the 12mm Alum "U" channel should be adjusted for a 12mm
clearance from the
underside of the end of the ramp. In otherwords, the entry section of
another ramp should just fit under the exit of the preceeding. Thats
what the notch in the lower balse base piece is for.

Once the bend angle is done and the rolling surfaces are polished, fit
the channel into the balsa base and slide it up and down until the 20mm
section just touches the level table or whatver you are sitting it on.
Check that the bottom of the ramp just clears a spare section of
channel. If not, sand or otherwise adjust the height of the end of the
ramp supports. Now go back and recheck the 20mm section is still on the
table. Mark a line on the bottom of the channel inline with the bottom
edge of the balsa support base for future reference.

It is very important for the end cut off of the ramp to be clean and at
right angles to the ramp. It is the exit rails that the ball will use to
exit. If the cut is off, the ball on exit will be thrown to one side or
the other and a clean exit will be very hard to achieve.

MAGNET POSITINING :

Top magnet spacing (measured from the inside of the Alum "U" channel
(1.5mm wall thickness) is approx 6mm, bottom spacing is approx 10mm.

The bottom egde of the magnet assys are in line with the start of the
ramp (the hacksaw cut).  These spacing will vary with the strength of
the magnets you use.

As the ball rolls up the ramp, it will "Hit" a end wall. This wall is
magnetic and is produces by the quick reduction in the field strength
that occurs at the end of the magnet assys. If you slide the magnets
down the ramp and release a ball on the 20mm start platform, you should
see the ball climb the ramp and then, as it nears the end, quickly be
thrown back down the ramp. What you must now do is to slowly move the
magnet assys up the ramp until this bounce back point is just over the
exit point. If you move the magnets too far up. the ball will be pulled
off the end rails and be pulled onto
one of the side magnets. There is a balance point where the ball drops
over the end and rolls down the end rails, but is gently forced back
onto the end rails as it falls.

MAGNET VERTICAL POSITIONING :

It is IMPORTANT that the vertical centre of the magnet arrays is ABOVE
the centre of the steel ball. This helps to reduce rolling friction.
Care must be observed as too high a magnet position and the ball will be
sucked off the track by any unbalances side to side magnetic forces. I
use paper to shim the side magnet assys up and down. The better the side
to side balance, the higher the magnets can be moved and the better the
whole thing works.

GETTING THE BEST RESULTS :

Once you have mastered the initial adjustments and can get the ball to
climb and drop out every time, you are now into the fun part. BUT first,
mark or otherwise record the current settings. Try varying the magnet
positioning (top & bottom spacing, position up and down the ramp and
vertical centre to centre) to margin your ramp. Vary all the adjustemnts
to find the edges where the effect stops. Try this on all the
adjustments until you can set the adjustments to optimal (IE in the
middle).

This margining is necessary to gain a good understanding of ramp
characteristics as we will need to vary some of the adjustments when we
get into linking 4 or more ramps in Phase 2.

This margining is necessary to gain a good understanding of ramp
characteristics as we will need to vary some of the adjustments when we
get into linking 4 or more ramps in Phase 2.

Meanwhile enjoy, experiment and record your results. Please feel free to
discuss your problems. If you can post photos, so much the better.

Over to you.

----------------------------


Best Regards and Good Luck in CONSTRUCTION
 Greg

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--------------5CE7549A6DC6--



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 01:33:28 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA03425; Sun, 25 May 1997 01:22:26 -0700 (PDT)
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Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:34:56 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Subject: SMOT Phase 1 Plans (Part 3)
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Hi All,

Here are some photos from Jean-Louis and David DeLeo

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IsK8ei/ZNEAW8KKKxH//2Q==
--------------34A8CF73248--



From freenrg-digest-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 01:41:48 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA23883 for bilb@eskimo.com; Sun, 25 May 1997 01:41:46 -0700
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:41:46 -0700
X-Envelope-From: MAILER-DAEMON@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 01:41:45 1997
Received: from localhost (localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with internal id BAA20093; Sun, 25 May 1997 01:41:45 -0700
Old-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:41:45 -0700
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@eskimo.com>
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-Id: <199705250841.BAA20093@mx1.eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-digest-request@eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
	boundary="BAA20093.864549705/mx1.eskimo.com"
Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
X-Diagnostic: Mail to julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk bounced 3 times
X-Diagnostic: Mail coming from a daemon, ignored
X-Diagnostic: Possible loopback problem
X-Envelope-To: freenrg-digest-request
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a MIME-encapsulated message

--BAA20093.864549705/mx1.eskimo.com

The original message was received at Sun, 25 May 1997 01:22:56 -0700
from smartlst@localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to post.almac.co.uk.:
>>> RCPT To:<julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk>
<<< 550 <julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk>... User unknown
550 julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk... User unknown

--BAA20093.864549705/mx1.eskimo.com
Content-Type: message/delivery-status

Reporting-MTA: dns; mx1.eskimo.com
Arrival-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:22:56 -0700

Final-Recipient: rfc822; julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.1
Remote-MTA: dns; post.almac.co.uk
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 <julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk>... User unknown
Last-Attempt-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:23:56 -0700

--BAA20093.864549705/mx1.eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/rfc822-headers

Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA20039; Sun, 25 May 1997 01:22:56 -0700
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:22:56 -0700
From: freenrg-digest-request@eskimo.com
Message-Id: <199705250822.BAA20039@mx1.eskimo.com>
Subject: freenrg-digest Digest V97 #178
X-Loop: freenrg-digest@eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <freenrg-digest@eskimo.com> archive/volume97/178
Precedence: list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------"
To: freenrg-digest@eskimo.com
Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com

--BAA20093.864549705/mx1.eskimo.com--

From freenrg-digest-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 01:44:11 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA24126 for bilb@eskimo.com; Sun, 25 May 1997 01:44:10 -0700
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:44:10 -0700
X-Envelope-From: MAILER-DAEMON@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 01:44:08 1997
Received: from localhost (localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with internal id BAA19898; Sun, 25 May 1997 01:44:08 -0700
Old-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:44:08 -0700
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@eskimo.com>
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-Id: <199705250844.BAA19898@mx1.eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-digest-request@eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
	boundary="BAA19898.864549848/mx1.eskimo.com"
Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
X-Diagnostic: Mail to julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk bounced 4 times
X-Diagnostic: Bounces exceed threshold of 4
X-Diagnostic: Removed: julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk  32760
X-Diagnostic: Mail coming from a daemon, ignored
X-Diagnostic: Possible loopback problem
X-Envelope-To: freenrg-digest-request
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a MIME-encapsulated message

--BAA19898.864549848/mx1.eskimo.com

The original message was received at Sun, 25 May 1997 01:22:10 -0700
from smartlst@localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
451 meier.landis@lshp1.fastnet.ch... timeout waiting for input during client greeting
451 meier.landis@lshp1.fastnet.ch... reply: read error from lshp1.fastnet.ch.
... while talking to post.almac.co.uk.:
>>> RCPT To:<julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk>
<<< 550 <julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk>... User unknown
550 julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk... User unknown

--BAA19898.864549848/mx1.eskimo.com
Content-Type: message/delivery-status

Reporting-MTA: dns; mx1.eskimo.com
Arrival-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:22:10 -0700

Final-Recipient: rfc822; julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.1
Remote-MTA: dns; post.almac.co.uk
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 <julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk>... User unknown
Last-Attempt-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:28:25 -0700

--BAA19898.864549848/mx1.eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/rfc822-headers

Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA19829; Sun, 25 May 1997 01:22:10 -0700
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:22:10 -0700
From: freenrg-digest-request@eskimo.com
Message-Id: <199705250822.BAA19829@mx1.eskimo.com>
Subject: freenrg-digest Digest V97 #177
X-Loop: freenrg-digest@eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <freenrg-digest@eskimo.com> archive/volume97/177
Precedence: list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------"
To: freenrg-digest@eskimo.com
Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com

--BAA19898.864549848/mx1.eskimo.com--

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 02:00:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA25502; Sun, 25 May 1997 02:00:29 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 02:00:29 -0700
X-Sender: monteverde@postoffice.worldnet.att.net
Message-Id: <l03102801afadaf816d78@[207.147.203.146]>
In-Reply-To: <199705250400.VAA13781@ganymede.compumedia.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:59:24 -1000
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Magnets for simple OU Toy
Resent-Message-ID: <"0dobm2.0.NE6.j-_Xp"@mx1>
Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com> archive/latest/3236
X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

American Science and Surplus http://www.sciplus.com/ has a few magnets.
Also for strong neos and so forth, try:

The Magnet Source
Master Magnetics, Inc.
P.O. Box 279
607 S. Gilbert
Castle Rock, CO 80104
(303) 688-3966
1-800-525-3536

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From freenrg-digest-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 02:09:06 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA07427 for bilb@eskimo.com; Sun, 25 May 1997 02:09:00 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 02:09:00 -0700 (PDT)
X-Envelope-From: MAILER-DAEMON@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 02:08:55 1997
Received: from localhost (localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with internal id CAA05020; Sun, 25 May 1997 02:08:55 -0700 (PDT)
Old-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 02:08:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@eskimo.com>
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-Id: <199705250908.CAA05020@mx2.eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-digest-request@eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
	boundary="CAA05020.864551335/mx2.eskimo.com"
Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
X-Diagnostic: Mail coming from a daemon, ignored
X-Diagnostic: Possible loopback problem
X-Envelope-To: freenrg-digest-request
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a MIME-encapsulated message

--CAA05020.864551335/mx2.eskimo.com

The original message was received at Sun, 25 May 1997 01:33:27 -0700 (PDT)
from smartlst@localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
451 TechSys@austintx.net... austintx.net: Name server timeout
... while talking to post.almac.co.uk.:
>>> RCPT To:<julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk>
<<< 550 <julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk>... User unknown
550 julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk... User unknown

--CAA05020.864551335/mx2.eskimo.com
Content-Type: message/delivery-status

Reporting-MTA: dns; mx2.eskimo.com
Arrival-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:33:27 -0700 (PDT)

Final-Recipient: rfc822; julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk
Action: failed
Status: 4.4.3
Remote-MTA: dns; post.almac.co.uk
Last-Attempt-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:47:04 -0700 (PDT)

--CAA05020.864551335/mx2.eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/rfc822-headers

Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA04239; Sun, 25 May 1997 01:33:27 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:33:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: freenrg-digest-request@eskimo.com
Message-Id: <199705250833.BAA04239@mx2.eskimo.com>
Subject: freenrg-digest Digest V97 #179
X-Loop: freenrg-digest@eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <freenrg-digest@eskimo.com> archive/volume97/179
Precedence: list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------"
To: freenrg-digest@eskimo.com
Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com

--CAA05020.864551335/mx2.eskimo.com--

From freenrg-digest-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 02:10:14 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id CAA07483 for bilb@eskimo.com; Sun, 25 May 1997 02:10:08 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 02:10:08 -0700 (PDT)
X-Envelope-From: MAILER-DAEMON@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 02:10:04 1997
Received: from localhost (localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with internal id CAA05022; Sun, 25 May 1997 02:10:04 -0700 (PDT)
Old-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 02:10:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@eskimo.com>
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Message-Id: <199705250910.CAA05022@mx2.eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-digest-request@eskimo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status;
	boundary="CAA05022.864551404/mx2.eskimo.com"
Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
X-Diagnostic: Mail coming from a daemon, ignored
X-Diagnostic: Possible loopback problem
X-Envelope-To: freenrg-digest-request
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a MIME-encapsulated message

--CAA05022.864551404/mx2.eskimo.com

The original message was received at Sun, 25 May 1997 01:33:41 -0700 (PDT)
from smartlst@localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
451 TechSys@austintx.net... austintx.net: Name server timeout
... while talking to post.almac.co.uk.:
>>> RCPT To:<julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk>
<<< 550 <julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk>... User unknown
550 julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk... User unknown

--CAA05022.864551404/mx2.eskimo.com
Content-Type: message/delivery-status

Reporting-MTA: dns; mx2.eskimo.com
Arrival-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:33:41 -0700 (PDT)

Final-Recipient: rfc822; julian.mallett@torran.almac.co.uk
Action: failed
Status: 4.4.3
Remote-MTA: dns; post.almac.co.uk
Last-Attempt-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:46:58 -0700 (PDT)

--CAA05022.864551404/mx2.eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/rfc822-headers

Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA04313; Sun, 25 May 1997 01:33:41 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:33:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: freenrg-digest-request@eskimo.com
Message-Id: <199705250833.BAA04313@mx2.eskimo.com>
Subject: freenrg-digest Digest V97 #180
X-Loop: freenrg-digest@eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <freenrg-digest@eskimo.com> archive/volume97/180
Precedence: list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------"
To: freenrg-digest@eskimo.com
Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com

--CAA05022.864551404/mx2.eskimo.com--

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 04:57:25 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id EAA13365; Sun, 25 May 1997 04:46:14 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 04:46:14 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <33882493.64CB@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:07:55 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Magnet Selection, Simple Magnetic Ou Toy (SMOT)
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2F89636E2921"
Resent-Message-ID: <"YVq6x1.0.dG3.2Q2Yp"@mx2>
Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com> archive/latest/3237
X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------2F89636E2921
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi All,

I thought I should comment here on the selection of magnets to build up
the side arrays.  
The height of the magnets MUST be less than the lift otherwise you will
not be able to get the ramps to link.

The ramp shown by Jean-Louis will not be able to link as the height of
the magnets is MUCH greater than the lift.

My design is based on a 12mm lift as this is the height of the Alum "U"
channel.  My magnet height is 10mm and therefore the magnet arrays from
two linking ramps can fit one under the other.

I have attached a updated Gif showing why this is important.

The SMOT ramp design did not just happen.  Be carefull to change it too
much.  There are elements in the design which are based on MUCH pain and
experience.

I decided to use small magnets to build up the magnet arrays as this was
the only way I could see to easily obtain the magnet array shape that I
needed, very wide, long and low.  Magnets like that are not easy to find
in one block.

Try to keep to the 104mm magnet array length as the 90mm ramp length is
based on this.

I encourage you to experiment, but first build a unit like the plans and
then try your own design.

Just remember, whatever you build, you must be able to link 3-4 units in
Phase 2.


Best Regards,
 Greg

--------------2F89636E2921
Content-Type: image/gif; name="smot-phase-1b.gif"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="smot-phase-1b.gif"

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--------------2F89636E2921--


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 10:20:39 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA07495; Sun, 25 May 1997 10:01:43 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:01:43 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:00:20 -0700 (PDT)
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To: JNaudin509@aol.com
From: Michael Randall <mrandall@earthlink.net>
Subject: Simple OU Toy USA dim.
Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Hi Jean-Louis

Thanks for the info. on your SMOT v1.0 unit and look forward to hearing of
your closed loop magnetic wheel unit experiments. 

I am trying to follow Greg's design and finding the materials that he used.
Here in USA the manufacturer's of magnets, aluminum track, steel bars, and
wood, use English dimensions. Now that Greg said to use magnets widths that
are LESS than the delta height, so as to connect multiple ramps, there are
several standard USA sizes that could work.

For a 0.5" steel ball, 0.5" alum. track, and a delta of 0.5".

USA standard ceramic block magnet dimensions:
Part No.        Grade   Thick   Width   Lenght  Cost per Qty 100  
CB1434          5       0.25    0.375   0.75    $20
CB 14342        5       0.25    0.375   1.50    $35
CB65            5       0.393   0.430   1.875   $38

Supplier:
The Magnet Source (800)525-3536, min. order $30

Going to give the CB65 a try. I'll post my results.

Best Regards,
Michael Randall

At 03:33 AM 5/25/97 -0400, Jean-Louis Naudin wrote:
>On 25/05/1997 05:10:10  , Michael Randall wrote :
>
><< 
> Hi Jean-Louis,
> 
> Nice video and photo's of your Phase 1 unit! I see that your unit also
> worked with different magnets. Can you describe your unit like:
> 
> - What was the lenght and size of the aluminum(?) ramp, and height at the
> end point?
> - Size of your magnets and steel ball used? 
> - Does the ball exit at the same level as the entry level?
> - At end drop did the ball roll away?
> 
> This would help others in designing their units with more choices from
> available material sources.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Michael Randall
>  >>
>
>Hi Michael,
>
>Concerning a source of magnets, I can give you an idea, you can find strong
>ferrite magnet in cleaning tools for aquarium windows, it made with two
>strong magnets recovered by a sheet of fiber, you need only to brake it and
>extract the magnets, pay attention to the polarity of the magnet, magnetic
>poles must be on the biggest surfaces. 
>
>I give you my SMOT v1.0 specs, I shall put my own design soon in my web :
>
>The size of his magnets is 25x40x10 mm ( for 3$ each ),
>I have used 2 x 5 magnets for the two ramps,
>The iron shield size is 20x25x2 mm, length 180 mm,
>I have use a 20x20 mm square U aluminium channel, and a 25 mm steel ball,
>The delta of the level between the input and the output is 12 mm.
>
>As said Greg in a previous email, this the only first version of the SMOT.
>The complete O/U setup is the SMOT V 4.0 in closed loop.
>
>Today I work on my own design of a closedloop magnetic wheel, using this
>magnetic regauging principle.....I have some interestings ideas and schemes
>to share for whose are interested. 
>
>Overunity yours,
>
>Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
>Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
>my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
>WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846
>
>
>
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 10:21:37 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA07555; Sun, 25 May 1997 10:02:10 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:02:10 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:00:49 -0700 (PDT)
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Michael Randall <mrandall@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Simple OU Toy
Resent-Message-ID: <"1Q5iS.0.yr1.G27Yp"@mx2>
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Hi Dan,

Good news about connecting multiple ramps! Looking forward to your design
info. Earlier you mentioned that the drop was lower than the entry height.
How did you solve that?

Michael Randall

At 10:15 AM 5/24/97 -0700, Dan Quickert wrote:
>Saw the plans for the SMOT late last night on Jean-Louis Naudin's website.
>
>Immediately reconfigured one of my test rigs to see how the design works. 
> Length, height of the ramp and the field contour adjustment generally in 
>concept with the posted design, but used parts on hand - different size 
>magnets (4mm x 20mm x 25mm), steel bar twice too long, wooden plant pot 
>labels for spacers. With all that variation from the specs, it worked first 
>time, with a lift of 18mm. Some previous experience with the ramps 
>influenced that result, of course.
>
>Positioned a previously working ramp (of different design) at the new one's 
>exit (second ramp's entrance at the same elevation as the first ramp's 
>entrance); the ball ran through both ramps after minor horizontal 
>adjustment at their linkage point.
>
>Will try to get materials to more exactly duplicate the posted design soon. 
>Meanwhile, I'd say that the plans are good if I can go so far from the 
>specs and still have it work so well. Of course there's also the 
>possibility that it wouldn't work without my changes, but from my 
>experience the differences in my quick mock-up were in the direction away 
>from optimal. I'd opine that the design works, within a wide margin of 
>construction variability.
>
>Dan Quickert
>dequickert@ucdavis.edu
>916-756-0575
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 10:32:51 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA01702; Sun, 25 May 1997 10:24:38 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:24:38 -0700
Message-ID: <01BC6906.94FA8EA0@bantha.mdm.mke.execpc.com>
From: Hawkeye <havveye@execpc.com>
To: "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Watson/Teamwork
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:41:12 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Don't use IRC to chat in real time with each other. Use ICQ. On ICQ You =
can see which one of your friends are online, chat with them, and send =
files to each other.

Search for it. I know it is out there.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 10:35:59 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA01782; Sun, 25 May 1997 10:24:55 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:24:55 -0700
Message-ID: <01BC6906.9F17F940@bantha.mdm.mke.execpc.com>
From: Hawkeye <havveye@execpc.com>
To: "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Energy from "Nowhere"
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:08:17 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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It is good to not only know how to make something work, but also know =
why it works. From what I have read the energy comes from a field that =
keeps objects in existance.=20

What would happed if you created a "Black hole." or multiple "Black =
holes" around one area where all the ZPE was going into the "Black =
holes" that capture the ZPE instead of keeping the objects in the one =
area in existance?

just a question.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 10:36:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA09312; Sun, 25 May 1997 10:25:44 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:25:44 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <01BC6906.992B4000@bantha.mdm.mke.execpc.com>
From: Hawkeye <havveye@execpc.com>
To: "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Re : Watson/Teamwork
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:47:56 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I would like to know what the EMF looks like on Watson's device. Does it =
change with the movement of the ball? Would an EMF picture, or video =
give us further insite? And if what we are doing now does do into the =
history books I would like at least one sentence about me.  

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 10:37:52 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA09351; Sun, 25 May 1997 10:25:51 -0700 (PDT)
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Message-ID: <01BC6906.9BFB7700@bantha.mdm.mke.execpc.com>
From: Hawkeye <havveye@execpc.com>
To: "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Magnets for simple OU Toy
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:50:23 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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American Science and Surplus.
Cheap magnets. They only have small problems. They come in many different sizes and shapes.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 10:47:45 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id KAA06025; Sun, 25 May 1997 10:46:51 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:46:51 -0700
From: geoff@compcafe.co.uk (Geoff Greaves)
Reply-To: geoff@compcafe.co.uk
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Gary's Neutral Line
Date: 25 May 1997 17:49:34 GMT
Message-Id: <25554942.113418005@compcafe.co.uk>
Organization: via Computer Cafes FC BBS Wales, UK
Resent-Message-ID: <"UGWQP.0._T1.9i7Yp"@mx1>
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Can anyone tell me whether the neutral line is apparently:

1) infinitely thin, the iron bar changing polarity as its centre moves across
it or 

2) infinitely thin with the iron bar being N-S on the side nearest the magnet
and S-N on the side away from the magnet at the same moment or

3) does it have thickness changing with the dimensions of the iron bar?

Thanks. 



----------------------------------------
>From Geoff Greaves: geoff@compcafe.co.uk
----------------------------------------

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 11:20:29 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 14:09:03 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970525140901_270816989@emout14.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
cc: gwatson@microtronics.com.au, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re : Magnet Selection, Simple Magnetic Ou Toy (SMOT)
Resent-Message-ID: <"-hH-Q1.0.jE2.Y18Yp"@mx1>
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On 25/05/1997 13:02:51  , Greg Watson wrote :

<< Hi All,
 
 I thought I should comment here on the selection of magnets to build up
 the side arrays.  
 The height of the magnets MUST be less than the lift otherwise you will
 not be able to get the ramps to link.
 
 The ramp shown by Jean-Louis will not be able to link as the height of
 the magnets is MUCH greater than the lift.
 
 My design is based on a 12mm lift as this is the height of the Alum "U"
 channel.  My magnet height is 10mm and therefore the magnet arrays from
 two linking ramps can fit one under the other.
  >>

Hi agree with you, Greg.
Today, I rebuild a new ramp with your setup.
I have already added your very important comment in my web server.

Thanks for your help...  :-)

Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 11:38:46 1997
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Johnny Feelgood <JohnnyFG@chardonnay.niagara.com>
Subject: RE: Watson/Teamwork
In-Reply-To: <01BC6906.94FA8EA0@bantha.mdm.mke.execpc.com>
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At 11.41 1997-05-25 -0500, you wrote:
>Don't use IRC to chat in real time with each other. Use ICQ.
>On ICQ You can see which one of your friends are online,
>chat with them, and send files to each other.
>Search for it. I know it is out there.

"http://www.mirabilis.com/" have it!
exit --- I vote for a flat society - like internet!
mailto:JohnnyFG@algonet.se
http://www.algonet.se/~johnnyfg/index.htm

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 11:47:04 1997
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <pascalc@mail.worldnet.fr>
From: "Pascal" <pascalc@mail.worldnet.fr>
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 20:49:09 +0000
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The ICQ program can be found at http://www.mirabilis.com
I use it with pleasure though still in beta test. 

I would also recommend using Netmeeting V2.0 : you can chat, you can 
draw pictures (if u have a drawing pad, mouse not recommended) and
schematics, you can speak and even send and receive videos. Of course 
several users can be in conference at the same time. Anyone can be a 
named conference initiator. Might be interesting for devices setup 
brainstorming.

I have a question for Jean-Louis Naudin, since you are in France. Can 
u tell to the lost french people of the list where we can find 
materials for building the SMOT ? :)

Keep the things spinning...
Pascal CAVY


> From:          Hawkeye <havveye@execpc.com>
> To:            "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
> Subject:       RE: Watson/Teamwork
> Date:          Sun, 25 May 1997 11:41:12 -0500
> Reply-to:      freenrg-l@eskimo.com

> Don't use IRC to chat in real time with each other. Use ICQ. On ICQ
> You can see which one of your friends are online, chat with them,
> and send files to each other.
> 
> Search for it. I know it is out there.
> 
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 12:26:20 1997
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Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:23:00 -0400
From: Dave DeLeo <ddeleo@ix.netcom.com>
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Hawkeye wrote:
> 
> Don't use IRC to chat in real time with each other. Use ICQ. On ICQ You can see which one of your friends are online, chat with them, and send files to each other.
> 
> Search for it. I know it is out there.


Thanks,  I just downloaded and installed it....

My UIN # is 1318578
Is anyone else on the list using ICQ besides Greg and Jean-Lois?

Dave DeLeo

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 12:27:10 1997
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To: newman-l@emachine.com (Newman-l)
From: harti@bbtt.de (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: Re:Newman motor efficiencies !
Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, josephnewman@earthlink.net
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At 05:36 25.05.1997 GMT, Newman-l wrote:
>N>responses to responses to that post.  One of the responses should have
>N>stood out to you all.  It was Stefan Hartman's response to Greg
>N>Watson's's response to my post.  Most should recognize Stefan as a
>N>thorough, competent and sincere investigator, as well as a humble and
>N>polite individual.  Visit his pages, and you will draw those
>N>conclusions.  Part of Stefan's response, and I'll quote it:  "I am
>N>convinced from my own studies that the first big Newman motors are
>N>overunity, but probably not the smaller ones."  Before I decided to jump
>
><snip>
>
>N>payback issues become resolved through refinement.  Instead, everyone
>N>goes off to explore other avenues.  You know, it just might be that you
>N>need a great big nasty looking motor/generator to harness this free
>N>energy stuff.  Just like there are limits to how small you can build a
>N>deisel engine or a turbine engine before the heat losses kill you, there
>N>may be similar limitations on OU.  There may not be, but why not use
>
><snip>
>
>   Yes, that probably is correct.  I make that statement based on my own
>observations testing his machines.
>
>  The big 12000# unit IMO, easily demonstrated OU or at least exhibited
>some rather startling results, such as being able to belt drive a DC
>motor backwards as a generator and then extracting an amount of power
>from the generator somewhere between 98% to 110% of the value of input
>power to the motor, depending on the particular test.
>
>  The test setup was pretty basic.  A bicycle wheel made of plastic
>(minus the tire) was the driving pulley on the shaft of the Newman motor.
>A rubber belt made from round 5/16" diameter tie-down strapping went
>between the bike wheel and a V-belt pulley mounted on an idler shaft.
>
>   The idler shaft had another V-belt pulley mounted on it, and more of
>the rubber tie-down belting was used between that pulley and the V-belt
>pulley mounted on the shaft of the DC PM motor which acted as a
>generator. The belting mechanical ratio was about 15:1 step up, so the
>DC generator ran faster than the Newman motor.
>
>  The DC power input to the Newman motor was measured by reading the DC
>voltage across the battery, and the input current was read by using a
>D'Arsonval ammeter in series with the battery.  On some tests, a
>capacitor was placed across the ammeter to smooth the intermittent
>current pulses drawn by the motor. It was found that as the motor
>attained top speed, the capacitor was unnecessary to get a stable
>reading.  Multiplying E x I gave the input watts to the motor.
>
>  The Generator was loaded with a series of 12 volt lamps, and the
>generator output voltage and current were measured using standard
>D'Arsonval meters.  Again, E x I = Watts recovered from the generator.
>
>  I certainly make no claims that these tests were error free, the
>considering the expected inefficiency of a conventional motor built as
>Newman built this one, such test results are, at least, surprising.
>
>    Ralph

>
Hi Ralph and all,

well, if the newer smaller Newman motors would be much more efficient than
100 % MECHANICALLY, it would be easy to drive a generator mechanically and
generate enough High Voltage DC to drive the Newman motor again and thus
close the loop.

This seems not to be the case, otherwise Newman himself would have
shown this and already done it long ago.

As all my small Newman- motors were MECHANICALLY less efficient than 100 %
this was NOT possible with my models. 
But I also just build the type of older "big open coil"
models, where the WHOLE SYSTEM efficiency including winding heat generation
has reached in one test 123 % efficiency, but the highest mechanical
efficiency was only about 60 to 70 %, when I remember it correctly..

The newer type of Newman motor could get higher MECHANICAL efficiencies,
but I doubt, that the small units like his "toy motor" is mechanically
over 100 %, I guess more around 90 to 95 %.

Also there have not been published any realistic measurement results
on these new smaller machines, just the FAN motor was stated to draw
less input power, than a normal FAN motor, but that does not show any
overunity effect !

In about 1 - 2 week, we will test our new magnetic flux switch device,
which will hopefully show better results. Most of the parts are ready to use
now, only a few assemblings still has to be done.

Have a look at:
http://www.overunity.de/theory.htm

for more info on this flux switch project.

Regards, Stefan.
--
Hartmann Multimedia Service
Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
http://www.harti.com    Webmaster of:
www.detours.de    www.overunity.de   www.berlin-city.com
email: harti@harti.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 13:15:10 1997
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To: geoff@compcafe.co.uk, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: harti@bbtt.de (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: Re: Gary's Neutral Line
Cc: gwatson@microtronics.com.au, tv@juno.com
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At 17:49 25.05.1997 GMT, geoff@compcafe.co.uk wrote:
>Can anyone tell me whether the neutral line is apparently:
>
>1) infinitely thin, the iron bar changing polarity as its centre moves across
>it or 
>
>2) infinitely thin with the iron bar being N-S on the side nearest the magnet
>and S-N on the side away from the magnet at the same moment or
>
>3) does it have thickness changing with the dimensions of the iron bar?
>
>Thanks. 
>

I tried to understand the GARY invention this morning, before going to sleep.
(still working at nights now...)

Well, the "neutral line" seems to be the changing point, where in a
highly distorted magnet field area, the magnetic induction on a 
ferromagenetic material like iron changes polarity inside the iron.

At lower distance it depends on the foreground surface fields of the 
"Hufeisen"-PM-magnet and at wider distance above the "Hufeisen-PM-magnet"
it seems to change polarity due to stray magnetic fields induced by the
other end of the "Hufeisen-PM-magnet".
Am I right ???
Otherwise the effects would be hard to explain....

Have a look at this:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4810

It would be pretty interesting to simulate this with QuickField ?

How about this Greg ?

Regards, STefan.
--
Hartmann Multimedia Service
Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
http://www.harti.com    Webmaster of:
www.detours.de    www.overunity.de   www.berlin-city.com
email: harti@harti.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 13:51:34 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:46:16 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970525164616_1073769081@emout20.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
cc: pascalc@mail.worldnet.fr
Subject: Re : RE: Watson/Teamwork
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On 25/05/1997 19:57:00  , you wrote :

<< 
 I have a question for Jean-Louis Naudin, since you are in France. Can 
 u tell to the lost french people of the list where we can find 
 materials for building the SMOT ? :)
 
 Keep the things spinning...
 Pascal CAVY
  >>

Bonjour Pascal,

You can find some Magnets in FRANCE at :

Aimants Goudsmit France
Z.I. rue du vert Bois
59535 Neuville en Ferrain Cedex
Tel : (33) 03 20 03 60 66
Fax: (33) 03 20 03 59 96

UGIMAG
Avenue d'Uriage
38830 St Pierre D'Allevard
Tel : (33) 04 76 45 39 70
Fax: (33) 04 76 08 96 69

I hope that will help you.....

En ce qui me concerne je me fournis a Carrefour (Aimants pour aquarium) ou
Loquets magnetique......
Magnetiquement votre....  :-)

Truly,

Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 13:52:49 1997
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Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:38:47 -0400
From: Dave DeLeo <ddeleo@ix.netcom.com>
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Has anyone given any more thought into where the energy might be coming
from?  What about the possible "costs" associated with running such a
device, I believe Greg had mentioned this a while back?

Dave DeLeo
ddeleo@ix.netcom.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 14:23:08 1997
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From: Tixif@aol.com
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:09:19 -0400 (EDT)
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Fwd: Changes, Friction - tedious notes
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---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    Changes, Friction - tedious notes
Date:    97-05-25 11:21:48 EDT
From:    Tixif
To:      gwatson@microtronics.com.au
CC:      Freeenrg@eskimo.com

Gregg wrote.

<< Be carefull to change it too
 much.  There are elements in the design which are based on MUCH pain and
 experience. >>

A couple of notes for those interested.  I have also used a differrent set up
than the specs and began looking immediately at the drop from the field for
the next ramp.  I experimented with varying designs and distances, trying to
keep those variations with the limits of Greggs original set up using
percentages of the differrence between his material and mine.  With the
holiday weekend, I only found a few of the specified materials but had to play
 anyhow.  Building an exact model of Greggs unit is obviously critical to a
successful circuit, although I am fairly sure that the following tests showed
that the ball will drop from one field to the entry of the next ramp.  I did
the following:
1.  Ball Diameter vs. Inside Ramp Distance.  Greggs ball diameter is 12mm on
a 12mm track with walls 1.5mm thick.  For my ball (.748" d) I built two test
tracks with inside distance of (Track 1) .562" (closest to the ride that
Greggs ball makes) and one with distance of (Track 2) .725" (this brought the
ball way down in the track - which seemed to me worth a look because the actio
n induced on the ball need not be as great to cause roll).
2.  To Reduce Friction - I filed and sanded the tops of my track, the rails,
to as close a 90d razor edge as possable to maintain a consistant tangent
point for the balls ride.
3.  Greggs ramps are ~86.5% of the magnetic drive assembly - I did the same.
 Major Differrence here in the set up - was that my mags were already too big
to make an assembly, so I stayed with what had worked earlier using only a
legnth of 1, increased in stregnth (Re: Crude Success).  My mags (quite
strong ceramics) are 1.875" long  thus ramps were built 1.621" long.
4. Then the rise - Couple of problems here where the rise of Greggs
track=ball diameter=75% of track inside distance=~13.4% of track legnth=11.5%
of the mag drive assy.  Mine wasn't going to work out that way.  I chose to
stay with a rise that would allow my next track to fit under the first = a
rise of .312" (~3.5d pitch) vs. Greggs +7d pitch.
5.  Found an optimum angle for the mags to be 30d off the center line of the
track (note on this later).
6.  To simulate the drop/exit to the next ramp, I included another track for
it to drop to.
Track 1.   With the ball riding higher in the track:
A.  The induced roll was much faster making it easier to fine tune the mags
for making the ball drop off the end.
B.  More difficult to adjust the mags to start the roll as the mags had to be
much closer to the ball.
C.  The ball would infact traverse the track and drop to the next - but
stayed coupled to the field and did not continue.
Track 2.  With the ball lower in the track:
A.  Travel was much slower, but the induced spin (more energy here!) was
huge.
B.  The mags did not need to be nearly as close to start the roll.
C.  The ball traversed the track, fell off the end and continue on to a level
surface of the same height as the entry.
While this all seems very far off from Greggs info, the principles were the
same.  These preliminary runs tell me that:
1.  While I have not tested multiple mag assemblies to create this unusual
field that Gregg mentions, there is work being performed on the sphere great
enough to overcome gravity and friction VS. its rest potential.
2.  In early construction methods, variances in design only result in a
variation of mag placement.  Track 1 could quite likely achieve the roll away
results by varying the height of the mags relative to the ball/track.
3.  I'm curious to see how to set up the mags for the second track to avoid
interferring (but to avoid repeating Greggs learning curve - I'll build it
acording to his specs.)
A side note on the 30d angle is that both mag drive assemblies are then 60d
relative - An unusual comment from the bible is God asks if we have seen the
power of the snowflake for he has reserved its power for times of war . . .
The only thing I know about snowfake/ice crystal is that they grow at 60d
angles.
Also, while the induced spin of track 2 could be discounted as a trade for
speed, I see something differrent in that when the ball drops from either
track, it has the same gravitational potential.  Since the DROP has nothing
to with forward momentum, the spin is energy potential gained VS. time.
I leave the advanced formulae argument to you guys.  I am skilled in
design/construction, electrical systems and mechanics and believe I can
evaluate what I see happening.
I'll rebuild the system according to Greggs specifications.  Don't you guys
leave me behind - Phase 2.
Shawn

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 14:23:22 1997
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Nuclear energy was supposed to be so wonderful, but now it seems to be =
more of a curse. When going into the unknown you must be careful or else =
you might end up falling to your doom. All I say is keep your eyes open. =
You can't just look at the positive, but also the negative.=20

Like the ying and the yang, the positive side can not exist without a =
negative side. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Every =
choice has a consiquence. The cloud that has a silver lining also has =
silver spikes.=20

You get the idea. 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 14:46:34 1997
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Chris Tinsley wrote:
> 
> Greg,
> 
>  > The single SMOT ramp is not clearly OU.  You will need to finish
>  > the Phase 4 device for that.  But the ramp sure makes you think.
>  >
>  > Have you built yours yet?
> 
> No, I haven't.  That doesn't mean I'm negative about what you are doing.
> In fact if there were not the large crowds that there are, working on
> it, I might well be tempted.  Since so many are working on it, I think
> I can afford to wait and see what happens.
> 
> This is in fact truly weird, and could never really happen without the
> 'net.  We have you in Oz, being apparently very sane and reasonable
> about all this, yet claiming that you have a magnetic O-U device.  Two,
> in fact - this 'toy' and the rotary one.  "Sane and reasonable" is not
> something we see much of (on either side) in discussions of O-U magnetic
> or electrical devices.  The inventor is usually bonkers and clutches his
> gizmo to his bosom, fearful that someone will (a) prove it's nonsense,
> (b) steal his ideas and improve on them, (c) that the dreaded oil
> companies or the Men in Black will assassinate him, (d)... & (e)... you
> can fill in yourself.  Couple this with the fact that nowhere have I
> seen these machines fully described, or secure test results on them, you
> will understand my scepticism.

That's why I am here.

> But ... well, you don't seem even to hanker after the Nobel (not that
> they'd give you one anyway, those are for Proper Scientists, not "lucky
> tinkerers" like the Wrights).  Nor do you seem to have gone demented
> with the prospect of $$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!! - so I can only conclude that
> (a) this is all a seriously impressive leg-pull, or (b) you've found
> something very "interesting" indeed.

I, and many others have found something.  I think the difference is my
approach.  I am willing to gamble on the future and in the basic "Good
Nature" of people.  I basically believe if you trust people, the trust
will come back.  Sort of like Love.

> I can't agree with whoever it was said that if it stops after a few
> hours then it can't be O-U.  I doubt that a rolling-ball device could
> easily be made which would keep running for more than a few minutes
> without energy input.

Very right.  Build a device, is really very simple and quick.

When YOU see for yourself that the ball is not pulled back up the exit
ramp by the same forces that pulled it up the ramp, the light comes on. 
When, in Phase 2, we link 3-4 ramps and YOU SEE there is no reduction in
speed as the ball goes from ramp to ramp, YOU will really know whene we
are going.

> Jean-Louis' web site is clear and most helpful.

I am glad Jean-Louis has helped.

> I thought that the Logajan and Ucar comments were (as usual) most
> interesting and helpful.  I can't see how the device could be getting
> energy by demagnetising the fridge magnets - or whether it could get
> any useful energy if it was doing that.

Neither can I.  NONE of my testing has shown the magnets loosing
strength!

> If others confirm your findings, I will certainly build one of these.
> If that happens and mine works too, maybe you would be willing to write
> a piece for our little rag?

OK, what's the publication?

> Strange - this international stuff...
> 
> Chris

Hi Chris,

The devices really work.  This time the SMOT evidence will change
things.

Best Regards,
 Greg


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 14:59:36 1997
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Michael Randall wrote:
> 
> Hi Jean-Louis
> 
> Thanks for the info. on your SMOT v1.0 unit and look forward to hearing of
> your closed loop magnetic wheel unit experiments.
> 
> I am trying to follow Greg's design and finding the materials that he used.
> Here in USA the manufacturer's of magnets, aluminum track, steel bars, and
> wood, use English dimensions. Now that Greg said to use magnets widths that
> are LESS than the delta height, so as to connect multiple ramps, there are
> several standard USA sizes that could work.
> 
> For a 0.5" steel ball, 0.5" alum. track, and a delta of 0.5".
> 
> USA standard ceramic block magnet dimensions:
> Part No.        Grade   Thick   Width   Lenght  Cost per Qty 100
> CB1434          5       0.25    0.375   0.75    $20

I would use this one, smaller, easier to make different size arrays.

> CB 14342        5       0.25    0.375   1.50    $35
> CB65            5       0.393   0.430   1.875   $38
> 
> Supplier:
> The Magnet Source (800)525-3536, min. order $30
> 
> Going to give the CB65 a try. I'll post my results.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Michael Randall

Hi Michael,

I woulds go for the smaller magnets.  I have found that they work out
better.

As a hint to building the arrays and being able to reuse the magnets, I
stack the maagnets together on a flat steel plate, get them square and
them skim the magnets with a THIN coating of superglue.  Let than dry
and then apply to the other side.  Now let the steel bar attach by
itself.  Building the arrays this way, I have found I can recover most
uf the magnets.  Other glues might work better.  I just thought of using
strong tape.  Should work ok.


Best Regards,
 Greg


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 15:09:44 1997
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Subject: AntiG Correlation (Re: SMOT or RMOT)
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Although the source of energy for the SMOT or RMOT devices is not the
primary point of attention at this time.  Please notice the following
correlation.


1) The experiment (described on Vortex) where a thin vertical sheet of
bismuth between two magnets looses weight when it is on the neutral line
between two magnets.

2) The free fall experiments by Donald A. Kelly where an increased fall
time is observed in response to opposed magnetic fields.

3) The rumors that bifilar coils loose weight and inertia under microwave
stimulation


All of this examples involve a material on the "neutral line" loosing
inertial mass or gravitational weight.

*** Perhaps this small weight decrease is the effect that enables the OU
toy to operate, because the ball is LIGHTER when the ramp pulls it up
compared to when it exits and falls down. ***

Of course the electron (and/or nucleus) ground state ZPE regeneration is
still a plausible explanation for the source of energy as well as thermal
negative-entropy, vibration rectification, chemical bond energy of the
ferrite or PMs, remanent ferrite magnetization, etc...  

How big do you draw the "energy box"...


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 15:14:13 1997
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Wrong.

The ceramic ferrite "refrigerator magnets" (BaFe2O3  or  SrFe2O3) are MUCH
LESS susceptible to demagnetization than AlNiCo magnets.  I am listing the
intrinsic coercivity force (demagnetizing force) for different magnetic
materials (in Oersteds)


Material  Grade  Demagnet  Curie  BH-Strength

NdFeB     g39 -  21,300    150    40
SmCo	    g26 -  10,000    300    26
AlNiCo    g05 -     640    540     5.5
Ceramic   g08 -   3,200    300     3.5
Flexible  g01 -   1,300    100     0.6


Grade = Material quality grade (alloy type ie. ALNICO 5)
Demagnet = Demagnetizing force in Oersteds
Curie = Curie Temperature in Degrees Celsius
BH-Strength = Maximum Energy Product in Mega Gauss Oersteds (MGO)


The above clearly shows that AlNiCo is THE EASIEST to demagnetize.  However
AlNiCo has the highest Curie temperature of them all - 540degC. The
Neodymium (NdFeB) magnets are the strongest (ie. they have the highest
energy product)

Also the statement "...a magnet can exhibit longer life if shunted..." IS
MISLEADING.  A ferromagnetic shunt between the poles (on let's say
horseshoe magnet) ONLY decreases the magnet to an EXPOSURE to demagnetizing
fields above the critical value.  This shunt ONLY acts as a protection or a
shield and doesn't prolong the magnetization of a magnet in the strictest
sense.

Theoretically a permanent magnet not exposed to a demagnetizing force above
the critical value (listed above) or temperature above the Curie point or
mechanical shock above a critical (g) value, WILL STAY MAGNETIZED FOREVER.

Please remember that the demagnetizing force MUST oppose the magnetization
polarity of a permanent magnet in order to do ANY "damage".  This means S-S
 or N-N (ie. Repelling mode) is necessary to demagnetize a permanent magnet.

***  In Greg's SMOT the magnets are in the ATTRACTING mode, so they are NOT
subjected to any demagnetizing forces from each other !!!. ***



At 04:26 PM 5/25/97 -0400, you wrote:
>	Briefly;  rather large linear behavior as opposed to RE magnets 
>in general.   Moderate resistancce to demagnetization, more resistance is 
>found in alnico alloys, and still more in Re types, but curves are different.
>
>>>
>	In general a magnet can exhibit longer life if shunted.   Watson 
>steel ball acts as mild ... very mild .. shunt.
>	The design life of the magnets would then fall within the range 
>of open to slightly shunted.
>
>					John Herman Schnurer
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 15:14:56 1997
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:27:39 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Hawkeye wrote:
> 
> I would like to know what the EMF looks like on Watson's device. Does it change with the movement of the ball? Would an EMF picture, or video give us further insite? And if what we are doing now does do into the history books I would like at least one s

entence about me.

Hi Hawkeye,

Don't understand your request.

I will post a series of mag field sims on the ramp.

It that what you wanted?


Best Regards,
 Greg


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 15:15:02 1997
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:37:55 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Tom Miller wrote:
> 
> Thank you for all the information you are giving us over
> the internet.

My pleasure, Tom.
 
> Since it is not feasible  for me to build even the simple
> device, for now, I have been trying to "build" it in my
> mind--a mental experiment.
> 
> It would be helpful to me, and maybe a lot of others,
> if you would publish some quickfield gifs of the
> fields around the blocks of magnets. For instance:
> 
>         1. Does the field on the inside face of each
>         array of magnets curve back into the end of each
>         small individual magnet?

They function as a single large block.

>         2.  It "looks" like the ends of the little  magnets
>         are  "staggered."  That is, the end of one set of
>         four (stacked vertically) seems to NOT be directly
>         across the track from the end of its counterpart.
>         (in the picture). Is this important?

Yhe up and down the ramp alignment is not critical.  The side arrays can
be several mm out of alignment without causing any problems.  Big
misalignment at the top can cause the ball to be sucked sideways to one
of the arrays causing exit problems.

>         3.  A series of shots showing how the fields of the
>         PMs interact with the steel ball, and what the field
>         inside the ball looks like  (at various stages up the
>         ramp) would be very useful.

Under way NOW.

>         4. The most important place, though, must be the EXIT.
>         a side, and end, view of the fields here would be most
>         enlightening. Would one small magnet, strategically
>         placed, help the ball to move out of the fields of the
>         magnet sets, (assisting gravity) but not be strong enough
>         to hold the ball back, against gravity?

No need.  Properly built and adjusted, the SMOT device will exit every
time!
 
> Tom Miller

Hi Tom,

Maybe you and a friend could team up to build a SMOT.  Ther are really
VERY simple and easy to make.


Best Regards,
 Greg


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 15:15:08 1997
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Patrick Reavis wrote:
> 
> Greg Watson wrote:
> 
> > I decided to use small magnets to build up the magnet arrays as this was
> > the only way I could see to easily obtain the magnet array shape that I
> > needed, very wide, long and low.  Magnets like that are not easy to find
> > in one block.
> >
> > Try to keep to the 104mm magnet array length as the 90mm ramp length is
> > based on this.
> >
> > I encourage you to experiment, but first build a unit like the plans and
> > then try your own design.
> >
> > Just remember, whatever you build, you must be able to link 3-4 units in
> > Phase 2.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >  Greg
> >
> >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Mr. Watson,

Greg is ok.

> Have you considered strip magnets? ( the type used to secure
> advertisement signs to cars and trucks)?

The ones I have played with are too weak by a factor of 2-4.

> Any sign painting/manufacturing company should be able to advise you on
> where to purchase it. I've
> seen it in rolls several feet long and a few inches wide. Good luck with
> your design.

Most fridge magnet suppliers can alsp source the material.  But its too
weak.

> Patrick Reavis
> 
> --
> The Double Naught Spy
> http://ro.com/~preavis

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 15:22:03 1997
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:22:31 +0930
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Geoff Greaves wrote:
> 
> Can anyone tell me whether the neutral line is apparently:
> 
> 1) infinitely thin, the iron bar changing polarity as its centre moves across
> it or
> 
> 2) infinitely thin with the iron bar being N-S on the side nearest the magnet
> and S-N on the side away from the magnet at the same moment or
> 
> 3) does it have thickness changing with the dimensions of the iron bar?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> ----------------------------------------
> >From Geoff Greaves: geoff@compcafe.co.uk
> ----------------------------------------

Hi Geoff.

The Neutral Line actually doesn't exist.  It is a place between the
magnet arrays where the side to side magnetic attractive forces are
balanced and the ball only feels the magnetic attractive forces up the
ramp.

The "U" channel helps the ball to stay, sort of, on the line.  Slight
misadjustments are allowed as the ball must move up before it moves
sideways.  The better the balance, the better the SMOT device works as
small unbalanced sideways forces will produce increasing frictional
losses.

Awaiting your test results.


Best Regards,
 Greg


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	Flexible strip magnets should be mapped with sheet of paper and 
iron grains..... many are magnetised as a series of N-S stipes.

					J

On Mon, 26 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote:

> Patrick Reavis wrote:
> > 
> > Greg Watson wrote:
> > 
> > > I decided to use small magnets to build up the magnet arrays as this was
> > > the only way I could see to easily obtain the magnet array shape that I
> > > needed, very wide, long and low.  Magnets like that are not easy to find
> > > in one block.
> > >
> > > Try to keep to the 104mm magnet array length as the 90mm ramp length is
> > > based on this.
> > >
> > > I encourage you to experiment, but first build a unit like the plans and
> > > then try your own design.
> > >
> > > Just remember, whatever you build, you must be able to link 3-4 units in
> > > Phase 2.
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >  Greg
> > >
> > >     ---------------------------------------------------------------
> > Mr. Watson,
> 
> Greg is ok.
> 
> > Have you considered strip magnets? ( the type used to secure
> > advertisement signs to cars and trucks)?
> 
> The ones I have played with are too weak by a factor of 2-4.
> 
> > Any sign painting/manufacturing company should be able to advise you on
> > where to purchase it. I've
> > seen it in rolls several feet long and a few inches wide. Good luck with
> > your design.
> 
> Most fridge magnet suppliers can alsp source the material.  But its too
> weak.
> 
> > Patrick Reavis
> > 
> > --
> > The Double Naught Spy
> > http://ro.com/~preavis
> 
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 15:31:17 1997
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:45:39 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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References: <33879BCD.54FE@interlaced.net> <3387C6CB.1F69@skypoint.com> <3387D3D8.3EBF@microtronics.com.au> <338894F7.40B1@skypoint.com>
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John Logajan wrote:
> 
> Greg Watson wrote:
> > The SMOT ramp as designed was not intended to be a class 3 ramp (Roll
> > away).  That's tricky to build and adjust.
> 
> That's a mouth full! :-)
> 
> I would say that if anyone could get a single ramp device to have the
> ball (from a dead start) exit the ramp to a point a distance of, say,
> the length of the ramp again, while remaining above or equal to the
> start height, then anomalous behavior is indicated.

I have done that.  Others have also confirmed this.

> A shorter roll distance would actually be all the would be required
> since the magnetic field is unlikely to be horizontally symmetrical.
> But it would be hard to say where that point exactly is, and so,
> taking the asymmetrical assumption alone, then getting the same
> distance away at the same or greater height pretty much proves
> the anomalous nature.
> 
> --
>  - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -

Hi John,

How about 4 linked ramps with the ball moving through them and NOT
slowing down?

Think about all that frictional loss.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 15:32:42 1997
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Chris Tinsley wrote:
> 
> John,
> 
>  > If we accept that the ball makes it through the loop 1.001+ times
>  > (i.e. > 1.0) then getting energy from the magnets by weakening
>  > them becomes the first explanation to explore.
> 
> I really should re-familiarise myself with all this stuff.  But, as I
> recall, the only difference between 'hard' ferromagnetic material which
> is a magnet and the same material which is not, is that the 'domains'
> in one case are aligned while in the other they are randomly oriented.
> 
> I don't see (1) a lot of energy, if any, becoming available in the transition,
> and (2) I can't off-hand think of one example of such a
> mechanism being available to provide energy, or (3) of a simple machine
> like Greg's which dis-aligns 'hard' materials in this way.
> 
> So, while I take your point, I would prefer to assume that this is all
> a big mistake or joke - unless or until others report the same effect.
> 
> Queer business, though.  Greg is impressive in his writings.  And it is
> true that rumours of such devices are indeed rife.  I just don't know,
> at this stage, what to make of it.  But - odd though it may seem - I'm
> reluctant to accept as explanations the "quasi-conventional" ideas such
> as the one you suggest.  They sound more like "explainings away" rather
> than probable explanations.
> 
> I can't help being reminded of a time of s.p.f where Frank Close
> suggested that CF energy came from storage of energy in the 'deep'
> electrons nearest the nucleus.  Of course, having proposed this
> startling new energy storage system, he was not interested in studying
> it - I'd have thought such a discovery worth a few Nobels any year.
> 
>  > In fact, right off hand, alternate "non-anomalous" explanations do
>  > not leap to mind.
> 
> Nor to mine.  I think that either we are missing something obvious, or
> Greg is pulling our leg, or his beastie is "interesting".
> 
> Chris

Hi Chris,

Build a SMOT ramp (Phase 1), then build 3 more and link them together in
Phase 4.  

See the ball transit through them without slowing down.  
Hear the frictional losses at work.  
Wonder at where the device gets its energy from.  
Look at the patent list I have posted before.

BUT just BUILD a unit, play with it, SEE it work and then tell me I am
pulling your leg.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 15:33:59 1997
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Subject: Warning:  Flexible Strip Magnets
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WARNING:  The flexible strip magnets are TOTALLY unsuitable for Simple OU
toy.  They are polarized with south and north poles ON THE SAME SIDE. (ie.
SNSNSNSNSNSN  like this...).  They are used to hold objects down and this
pole configuration is much more efficient than one pole on one side and an
opposite pole on another side of the strip.  Many of the sheet magnets have
up to 10 poles per square inch !!!

The flexible magnets are also very weak.  Compare in the chart below:



Material  Grade  Demagnet  Curie  BH-Strength

NdFeB     g39 -  21,300    150    40
SmCo	    g26 -  10,000    300    26
AlNiCo    g05 -     640    540     5.5
Ceramic   g08 -   3,200    300     3.5
Flexible  g01 -   1,300    100     0.6


Grade = Material quality grade (alloy type ie. ALNICO 5)
Demagnet = Demagnetizing force in Oersteds
Curie = Curie Temperature in Degrees Celsius
BH-Strength = Maximum Energy Product in Mega Gauss Oersteds (MGO)


The above clearly shows that AlNiCo is THE EASIEST to demagnetize.  However
AlNiCo has the highest Curie temperature of them all - 540degC. The
Neodymium (NdFeB) magnets are the strongest (ie. they have the highest
energy product).  Flexible magnets are the weakest.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 15:58:01 1997
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Message-ID: <3388C0A9.16E0@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 08:13:53 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Subject: Re: Magnets for simple OU Toy
References: <01BC682B.73268D00@chiltepine.ucdavis.edu> <33878C87.61E0@ix.netcom.com> <3387CF6A.763C@microtronics.com.au> <3388646C.6EAE@ix.netcom.com>
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Dave DeLeo wrote:
> 
> I would like use the same size magnets so I can stick to the plans
> throughout the other phases.  I am going to go out and search for
> magnets at least close to the right size today.  If I can't find any
> would it be possible for you to pick them up at your supplier and mail
> them to me?  I'll send you a check or money order (whatever you prefer)
> to cover the magnets and shipping costs.  By the way about what would
> shipping costs and travel time be to ship between AU and US?  I figured
> I'll need about 800 or so.  64 X 4 for the straight phase 2 ramps and I
> think you said there were 8 curved ramps in phase 4, I'm assuming they
> use 9X4 mag arrays also.  So that's 8X64.  I figure if I superglue the
> straight assemblys together I'm not going to be able to reuse them for
> the curved ones.  so I need 12 ramps at 64 mags apiece for a total of
> 768 round that to 800.....
> 
> Hopefully I'll be able to find something localy....
> Dave DeLeo
> ddeleo@ix.netcom.com

Hi Dave,

Use strong tape on both sides of the arrays to hold them together.  I
have posted a corro about this.

You can them re-use the magnets later.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-digest-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 16:03:56 1997
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 17:21:37 1997
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To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: harti@bbtt.de (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: Re: Re : Watson/Teamwork
Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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At 07:27 26.05.1997 +0930, gwatson@microtronics.com.au wrote:
>Hawkeye wrote:
>> 
>> I would like to know what the EMF looks like on Watson's device. Does it
change with the movement of the ball? Would an EMF picture, or video give us
further insite? And if what we are doing now does do into the history books
I would like at least one sentence about me.
>
>Hi Hawkeye,
>
>Don't understand your request.
>
>I will post a series of mag field sims on the ramp.
>
>It that what you wanted?
>

He probably means, what I was suggesting a while ago.

Put some coils around a few PM magnets of your SMOT and put a scope
to these coils and look, if the moving ball induces some
voltage (EMF) inside these coils !

The waveform of this EMF would be interesting to study !

Regards, Stefan.

--
Hartmann Multimedia Service
Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
http://www.harti.com    Webmaster of:
www.detours.de    www.overunity.de   www.berlin-city.com
email: harti@harti.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 17:23:22 1997
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To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
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Hi All,

   I have been setting up my new computer which is kludgy. I lost all my
email for the period from last Tuesday to Saturday night as my computer
froze while retrieving it. Thank you O great Satan Bill Gates!  If anybody
sent me anything in this time period they need to resend it.  Hopefully I
will get it this time :-(
   I missed the first three parts of Greg's O/U toy construction plans too,
but presumably they will be posted on one of the participating websites.
                             Sorry about the problems,
                             Fred 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 17:27:35 1997
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Subject: Re: SMOT Construction Tips
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I have found that a hollow glass marble filled with powdered iron (through
a small drilled hole) achieves greater lift than a hard-steel ball.

The hard glass surface also decreases friction losses and the powdered iron
would eliminate any eddy current losses in the future.



At 02:39 AM 5/26/97 +0400, you wrote:
>Greg Watson wrote:
>
>>Have you started building your Phase 1 SMOT device yet?
>
>No, not yet. Because my two assistant cats had kidnapped my mouse ball
>and made their own OU experiments! 
>
>Actually, I will try to get the needed materials today.
>
>Regards,
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 17:36:22 1997
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Message-ID: <3388D7A2.124C@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:51:54 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Hi All,

I have posted 8 QField sims of the SMOT device to Jean-Louis.  They
should shortly be available to view.  Jean-Louis will advise us when he
is finished.

I have been asked by several people about the SMOT site.  As far as I am
concerned, use any of it in anyway you see fit.  Just remember to
mention Jean-Louis and me.  Its not nice to forget where the info came
from.

Build a SMOT, if you haven't started DO IT NOW!


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 17:40:27 1997
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From: Ken Smith <ksmith@ihug.co.nz>
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>>Hi Hawkeye,
>>
>>Don't understand your request.
>>
>>I will post a series of mag field sims on the ramp.
>>
>>It that what you wanted?
>>
>
>He probably means, what I was suggesting a while ago.
>
>Put some coils around a few PM magnets of your SMOT and put a scope
>to these coils and look, if the moving ball induces some
>voltage (EMF) inside these coils !
>
>The waveform of this EMF would be interesting to study !
>
I will do same today - although JLN will prbably beat me to it and produce
lovely piccies to boot.  However it would be interesting.  I have a ramp on
the bench right now and a coil will only take a moment...  Now where did I
put the leads for the scope <g>.

Ken
             
           
                      Ken Smith (ksmith@ihug.co.nz)
                   http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~ksmith
          


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 18:36:48 1997
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From: Hawkeye <havveye@execpc.com>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: FW: Re : Watson/Teamwork
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 18:38:52 -0500
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From: 	Greg Watson[SMTP:gwatson@microtronics.com.au]
Sent: 	Sunday, May 25, 1997 5:27 PM
To: 	freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Cc: 	vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: 	Re: Re : Watson/Teamwork

Hawkeye wrote:
>=20
> I would like to know what the EMF looks like on Watson's device. Does =
it change with the movement of the ball? Would an EMF picture, or video =
give us further insite? And if what we are doing now does do into the =
history books I would like at least one sentence about me.

Hi Hawkeye,

Don't understand your request.

I will post a series of mag field sims on the ramp.

It that what you wanted?


Best Regards,
 Greg
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------------------
Yes that is what I am talking about.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 18:37:04 1997
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From: Hawkeye <havveye@execpc.com>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: FW: Re : Watson/Teamwork
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 19:50:15 -0500
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----------
From: 	Stefan Hartmann[SMTP:harti@bbtt.de]
Sent: 	Sunday, May 25, 1997 7:12 PM
To: 	gwatson@microtronics.com.au; freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Cc: 	vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: 	Re: Re : Watson/Teamwork

At 07:27 26.05.1997 +0930, gwatson@microtronics.com.au wrote:
>Hawkeye wrote:
>> 
>> I would like to know what the EMF looks like on Watson's device. Does it
change with the movement of the ball? Would an EMF picture, or video give us
further insite? And if what we are doing now does do into the history books
I would like at least one sentence about me.
>
>Hi Hawkeye,
>
>Don't understand your request.
>
>I will post a series of mag field sims on the ramp.
>
>It that what you wanted?
>

He probably means, what I was suggesting a while ago.

Put some coils around a few PM magnets of your SMOT and put a scope
to these coils and look, if the moving ball induces some
voltage (EMF) inside these coils !

The waveform of this EMF would be interesting to study !

Regards, Stefan.
--------------------------------------------------
I couldn't say it better.



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 18:37:23 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA10466; Sun, 25 May 1997 18:36:43 -0700
Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 18:36:43 -0700
Message-ID: <01BC694B.4F1D1160@bantha.mdm.mke.execpc.com>
From: Hawkeye <havveye@execpc.com>
To: "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: To continue...
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 20:35:03 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Now, this e-mail may not be about ZPE but it may help people talk more =
about ZPE. As already mentioned ICQ alows people to know who on their =
contact list are online. If everyone got the ICQ program that can be =
found at:
http://www.mirabilis.com
They can easily send files, messages, chat, and send URLs.
This would mean that they could continue talking to people on this list =
about old subjects, modifications to projects, and other items.=20
Once you get the free program all you have to do is tell us your UIN.
If you don't think you need it remember:
live chat with only the people you invite into the chat.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 18:46:15 1997
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Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 18:45:30 -0700
Message-Id: <9705260146.AA15545@mail1.halcyon.com>
From: "Fred Epps" <fepps@mail1.halcyon.com>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: lost email
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 18:45:22 -0700
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Hi Folks!

   I am hassling with a new computer that occasionally completely freezes.
Nothing works but to shut it down, thus losing files.  It did so while
retrieving all my email of the last week and I lost all messages :-)
If anybody wrote me in the last week you'll have to resend it.  Sorry about
the problems.

                                    All Hail the Geat Satan Bill Gates,
                                     Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 18:51:07 1997
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Message-ID: <01BC694B.3FA876C0@bantha.mdm.mke.execpc.com>
From: Hawkeye <havveye@execpc.com>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: FW: Warning:  Flexible Strip Magnets
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 18:45:30 -0500
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----------
From: 	Epitaxy[SMTP:epitaxy@localaccess.com]
Sent: 	Sunday, May 25, 1997 5:33 PM
To: 	freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: 	Warning:  Flexible Strip Magnets

WARNING:  The flexible strip magnets are TOTALLY unsuitable for Simple OU
toy.  They are polarized with south and north poles ON THE SAME SIDE. (ie.
SNSNSNSNSNSN  like this...).  They are used to hold objects down and this
pole configuration is much more efficient than one pole on one side and an
opposite pole on another side of the strip.  Many of the sheet magnets have
up to 10 poles per square inch !!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I think I will try one with strip magnets. They just might be what I want.

WARNING: Don't say anything is "TOTALLY unsuitable" untill you try it.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 19:51:37 1997
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From: Hawkeye <havveye@execpc.com>
To: "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: More questions...
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:49:48 -0500
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What would happen if a magnetized ball was used?
In the search for over-unity wouldn't it be easier to make devices that use friction to make power?
What if the ramp was replaced by a series of magnetic rings (large to small in order)?


I am just throwing my thoughts into the air and looking at where they land.
Robert Hawkins. 'Hawkeye" 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 20:43:13 1997
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Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 20:30:11 -0800
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: pgb@padrak.com (Patrick Bailey)
Subject: The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been Again updated
Resent-Message-ID: <"VTSG-1.0.UO3.2EGYp"@mx2>
Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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The Institute for New Energy Web Site has been updated at:

http://www.padrak.com/ine/

Most New Data Files are at:   http://www.padrak.com/ine/index.shtml#INE_RECENT

All the revisions are in the file:    http://www.padrak.com/ine/REVISIONS.html

-------------     ------------------------------------------------------------
Date Included     Additions, Expansions, or Revisions
-------------     ------------------------------------------------------------

May 25, 1997      Added:  NEN TOC Vol. 5, No. 2, June 1997
                          Special Edition for the 4th ISNE
                     A Challenge To Supporters Of New Energy
                     A New Cold Fusion Experimental Device
                     Biological Transmutation Patent
                     Radioactive Waste Amelioration Patent
                     Light Is The Ghost Of Mass
                     Texas A&M Refuses Seminar (On Cold Fusion)
                     $100,000 For Demonstration Of A Free Energy Machine
                     Charge Cluster Transmutation, 4th ISNE Paper
                     Videotape:  Free Energy: The Race To Zero Point
                     Conference on the Fundamentals of Physics and Cosmology
                     International Cold Fusion Forum (ICCF-7)
                  Updated:  All files for 1997 NEN copyright dates.
                     Announcements Page (Meetings).
                     Products Page (Videotapes)
                     Authors and Subjects Pages
                  Site Counter = 107,231

Dr. Patrick G. Bailey
President, Institute for New Energy
http://www.padrak.com/ine/


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 21:26:38 1997
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 00:25:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: woods@most.weird.com (Greg A. Woods)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: Re : Watson/Teamwork
In-Reply-To: havveye@execpc.com's message
	of "Sun, May 25, 1997 11:47:56 -0500"
	regarding "RE: Re : Watson/Teamwork"
	id <01BC6906.992B4000@bantha.mdm.mke.execpc.com>
References: <01BC6906.992B4000@bantha.mdm.mke.execpc.com>
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Organization: Planix, Inc.; Toronto, Ontario; Canada
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[ On Sun, May 25, 1997 at 11:47:56 (-0500), havveye@execpc.com wrote: ]
> Subject: RE: Re : Watson/Teamwork
>
> I would like to know what the EMF looks like on Watson's device. Does it =
> change with the movement of the ball? Would an EMF picture, or video =
> give us further insite? And if what we are doing now does do into the =
> history books I would like at least one sentence about me.  

On that note I recall that the inside back cover of the March 1997 IEEE
Spectrum magazine has an advertisement for Ansoft HFSS: Electromagnetic
Field Simulation Software.  http://www.ansoft.com/.

Someone with access to this software or some similar might try building
a model of Greg Watson's device(s) to see what's going on (assuming this
software can actually model "static" magnetic fields.

-- 
							Greg A. Woods

+1 416 443-1734			VE3TCP			robohack!woods
Planix, Inc. <woods@planix.com>; Secrets of the Weird <woods@weird.com>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 22:07:24 1997
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 06:57:21 +0200
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To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: harti@bbtt.de (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: Added Link to JLNaudins Page 
Cc: JNaudin509@AOL.COM
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Hi Greg and Jean-Louis,

I added the link to J-L=B4s SMOT page at my site at:

http://www.overunity.de/devices.htm

and

http://www.overunity.de/news.htm

Keep on the good work. Hopefully in about 10 days, we will=20
know if also our flux switch will work OU.
It will get a hot summer 1997 ! :)

Regards, Stefan.
--
Hartmann Multimedia Service
Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
http://www.harti.com    Webmaster of:
www.detours.de    www.overunity.de   www.berlin-city.com
email: harti@harti.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 22:08:12 1997
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Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:56:25 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <01BC6956.05BC1F10@chiltepine.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Changes, Friction - tedious notes
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:53:03 -0700
Encoding: 26 TEXT, 48 UUENCODE
X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00
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Shawn wrote:
[snip]
 >Track 2.  With the ball lower in the track:
 >A.  Travel was much slower, but the induced spin (more energy here!)
 >was huge.
 >B.  The mags did not need to be nearly as close to start the roll.
 >C.  The ball traversed the track, fell off the end and continue on to a
 >level surface of the same height as the entry.
[snip]

Thank you, Shawn, for the detailed account!
I'm particularly interested in your experiment with different ball-to-track 
width ratios. A while ago I posted a suggestion about that, but never got a 
response and haven't had opportunity to try it myself. You've apparently 
confirmed my hunch. Do I understand it correctly, that you got dramatically 
better escape with the ball riding lower in the track?

Also seems like that faster-spinning ball must be have some interesting 
currents induced in it, eh? Would be interesting to know how that affects 
the motion thru the field.

BTW, how did you make your wider track?

Dan Quickert
dequickert@ucdavis.edu
916-756-0575

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M\#-&<8YIO % ``@P\"-+L9!IO $>`#T``0````4```!213H@``````,`#33]
%-P``5K1I
`
end

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 22:39:18 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA28086; Sun, 25 May 1997 22:27:48 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:27:48 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <01BC695A.63CD8E00@chiltepine.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: demagnetizing force
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:24:07 -0700
Encoding: 20 TEXT, 39 UUENCODE
X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00
Resent-Message-ID: <"GJcNA1.0.ks6.IzHYp"@mx2>
Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com> archive/latest/3280
X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Epitaxy wrote (in Re: Non anomaly (Re: SMOT)):

[snip]
 >Please remember that the demagnetizing force MUST oppose the 
magnetization
 >polarity of a permanent magnet in order to do ANY "damage".  This means 
S-S
 > or N-N (ie. Repelling mode) is necessary to demagnetize a permanent 
magnet.
[snip]

In all of the ramp setups, to make each side assembly, multiple magnets are 
laid end-to-end with like poles of both magnets facing the same direction. 
The ends have to be forced together and held there, because in that 
configuration there are opposing fields at the union between magnets. Is 
this going to demagnetize them?

Dan Quickert
dequickert@ucdavis.edu
916-756-0575

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`
end

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 23:07:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id WAA01007; Sun, 25 May 1997 22:55:44 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:55:44 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <01BC695E.4FE45E60@chiltepine.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: SMOT Construction Tips
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:52:12 -0700
Encoding: 13 TEXT, 37 UUENCODE
X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00
Resent-Message-ID: <"4PyL8.0.eF.SNIYp"@mx2>
Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com> archive/latest/3281
X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com
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Epitaxy wrote:

 >I have found that a hollow glass marble filled with powdered iron (through
 >a small drilled hole) achieves greater lift than a hard-steel ball.
 >
 >The hard glass surface also decreases friction losses and the powdered iron
 >would eliminate any eddy current losses in the future.

Sounds interesting. Where would one find a hollow glass marble?

Dan Quickert
dequickert@ucdavis.edu
916-756-0575

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`
end

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 23:20:15 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA02261; Sun, 25 May 1997 23:08:10 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:08:10 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <01BC6960.0BAF5C70@chiltepine.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: ICQ
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:04:39 -0700
Encoding: 26 TEXT, 50 UUENCODE
X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00
Resent-Message-ID: <"wIOOC.0.DZ.7ZIYp"@mx2>
Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com> archive/latest/3282
X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Precedence: list
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Hawkeye wrote:

 >Now, this e-mail may not be about ZPE but it may help
 >people talk more about ZPE. As already mentioned ICQ
 >alows people to know who on their contact list are online.
 >If everyone got the ICQ program that can be found at:
 >http://www.mirabilis.com
 >They can easily send files, messages, chat, and send
 >URLs. This would mean that they could continue talking
 >to people on this list about old subjects, modifications to
 >projects, and other items. Once you get the free program
 >all you have to do is tell us your UIN.
 >
 >If you don't think you need it remember:
 >live chat with only the people you invite into the chat.

interesting, quite useful I'm sure. But major benefits of Freenrg list is 
it is (semi-) public and it is archived. I'd hate to see any discussions of 
Greg Watson's device go offline at this point. At the very least, we may be 
making history here, it would be nice to have a full record of it. And an 
idea said offline may not reach the ear of the one person that may use that 
idea to break through to a new understanding and implementation...

Dan Quickert
dequickert@ucdavis.edu
916-756-0575

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`
end

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun May 25 23:27:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA02985; Sun, 25 May 1997 23:16:25 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:16:25 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <01BC6961.34E6DAE0@chiltepine.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: lost email
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:13:07 -0700
Encoding: 15 TEXT, 39 UUENCODE
X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00
Resent-Message-ID: <"NVTjL3.0.Yk.tgIYp"@mx2>
Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
X-Mailing-List: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com> archive/latest/3283
X-Loop: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi Fred,

Sorry about your computer troubles. Do you have competent help working on 
the problem? It is always difficult diagnosing things long-distance, but I 
have some experience and will offer any help I can give. Can't promise 
results, but the price is equally null, other than your time :-).
Since you invoke the name of Gates I assume you're dealing with Win 95 or 
NT. I've more experience with the latter and with earlier Windows versions, 
but may be able to help with 95 also.
Feel free to e-mail or call if I may be of assistance.

Dan Quickert
dequickert@ucdavis.edu
916-756-0575 home
916-754-9794 Tu-Fri  9-5

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/( `````#``TT_3<``"(>
`
end

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 00:03:09 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA05918; Sun, 25 May 1997 23:51:32 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:51:32 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <01BC6966.1BD58510@chiltepine.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Simple OU Toy
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:48:07 -0700
Encoding: 27 TEXT, 43 UUENCODE
X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00
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Michael Randall wrote:
 >Hi Dan,
 >
 >Good news about connecting multiple ramps! Looking forward to your design
 >info. Earlier you mentioned that the drop was lower than the entry 
height.
 >How did you solve that?
[snip]

Hi Michael,

Improved by combination of:
1) changed field contours: Narrower magnets, and the angled side-magnet 
assemblies.
2) getting more lift. Once you get enough lift, the entry height is far 
enough below the exit field that the ball is not pulled back as much.

My connecting "multiple ramps" was nothing elegant. Just a quick-and-dirty 
insertion of a small primitive ramp at the exit of the new one. In this 
case the exit of the second ramp was not as high as the exit of the first 
ramp. That will have to await my building of a second good ramp.

Dan Quickert
dequickert@ucdavis.edu
916-756-0575



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`
end

From freenrg-digest-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 00:09:49 1997
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 00:19:38 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id AAA15709; Mon, 26 May 1997 00:18:48 -0700
Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 00:18:48 -0700
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 00:18:28 -0700 (PDT)
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Michael Randall <mrandall@earthlink.net>
Subject: SMOT v1.0 Result & Design Notes
Resent-Message-ID: <"vdZa_1.0.Mr3.NbJYp"@mx1>
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At 07:14 AM 5/26/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote:
>Michael Randall wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> USA standard ceramic block magnet dimensions:
>> Part No.        Grade   Thick   Width   Lenght  Cost per Qty 100
>> CB1434          5       0.25    0.375   0.75    $20
>
>I would use this one, smaller, easier to make different size arrays.

Thanks for the info.

>Hi Michael,
>
>I woulds go for the smaller magnets.  I have found that they work out
>better.
>
>As a hint to building the arrays and being able to reuse the magnets, I
>stack the maagnets together on a flat steel plate, get them square and
>them skim the magnets with a THIN coating of superglue.  Let than dry
>and then apply to the other side.  Now let the steel bar attach by
>itself.  Building the arrays this way, I have found I can recover most
>uf the magnets.  Other glues might work better.  I just thought of using
>strong tape.  Should work ok.
>
>
>Best Regards,
> Greg

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the tips, I'll give it a try.

Results of experiments today:
With Radio Shack magnets (0.75"x 0.25"x 0.875"L) and a close replica of your
design.

1. The 0.75" steel ball drops off the 0.5" alum. track to the next track below.
2. The magnetic field still holds the ball lightly at the track below.
3. The next magnetic ramp and assembly pulled the ball away from the first
assembly.

Next building a second ramp to see if the 2nd magnetic field can carry it up
and to the next drop. It should work as you and Dan have verified.

I found it interesting that all that was needed was to get the ball to the
next ramp. Once there the next magnetic assembly can pull it away even if
the first ramp mag. assembly had a hold on it. I don't see any problem in
closing the loop with multiple ramps.

Design Notes:
1. The width of the magnets should be close to the width of the steel ball.
0.5" steel ball would not work with 0.75" width magnets but did work with
0.625" ball. 
2. Greg's design with a magnet width even smaller than steel ball would
probably be best. An added benefit being at the end drop the magnetic field
would have a smaller effect on the steel ball sitting on the next lower
track ramp verses larger width magnets.

It works! Thanks again for sharing your designs.

Best Regards,
Michael 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 01:08:54 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id BAA18875; Mon, 26 May 1997 01:08:14 -0700
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Message-ID: <3389448C.20B4@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:36:36 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: lost email
References: <9705260146.AA15545@mail1.halcyon.com>
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Fred Epps wrote:
> 
> Hi Folks!
> 
>    I am hassling with a new computer that occasionally completely freezes.
> Nothing works but to shut it down, thus losing files.  It did so while
> retrieving all my email of the last week and I lost all messages :-)
> If anybody wrote me in the last week you'll have to resend it.  Sorry about
> the problems.
> 
>                                     All Hail the Geat Satan Bill Gates,
>                                      Fred

Hi Fred,

I have run Win95 since it came out.  Best thing since sliced bread.  I
use Netscape 3.0 Gold.  Seems to be a solid package.  As a old computer
designer, I would suspect your hardware.  Get into the setup and try
slowing down the ram.  If things settle down, suspect you have some soft
ram simms.  If not, suspect your MotherBoard.  I say again, Win95 seems
to be very soild.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 01:19:31 1997
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Message-ID: <33894717.6733@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:47:27 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Re : Watson/Teamwork
References: <01BC6906.992B4000@bantha.mdm.mke.execpc.com> <m0wVrLj-00076uC@most.weird.com>
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Greg A. Woods wrote:
> 
> [ On Sun, May 25, 1997 at 11:47:56 (-0500), havveye@execpc.com wrote: ]
> > Subject: RE: Re : Watson/Teamwork
> >
> > I would like to know what the EMF looks like on Watson's device. Does it =
> > change with the movement of the ball? Would an EMF picture, or video =
> > give us further insite? And if what we are doing now does do into the =
> > history books I would like at least one sentence about me.
> 
> On that note I recall that the inside back cover of the March 1997 IEEE
> Spectrum magazine has an advertisement for Ansoft HFSS: Electromagnetic
> Field Simulation Software.  http://www.ansoft.com/.
> 
> Someone with access to this software or some similar might try building
> a model of Greg Watson's device(s) to see what's going on (assuming this
> software can actually model "static" magnetic fields.
> 
> --
>                                                         Greg A. Woods
> 
> +1 416 443-1734                 VE3TCP                  robohack!woods
> Planix, Inc. <woods@planix.com>; Secrets of the Weird <woods@weird.com>

Hi Greg,

I have posted Quick Field Sims to Jean-Louis's web site.

I had a look at the site you suggested and at a pricing of over $20,000
Aust, I think I will stay with QField.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 01:25:37 1997
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From: Jiyani@aol.com
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 04:12:07 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970526041206_551696720@emout07.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Positive Nrg
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In search of answers for myself, I made a grid on the frosted window and then
selected specific squares, and with mental concentration tried to melt a
selected spot sooner than the rest of the areas melted. Try it and keep track
of the results.

This takes a fairly long period of time to obtain the results but perhaps it
will enlighten you toward your quest. 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 01:37:42 1997
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Message-ID: <33894892.2327@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:53:46 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Subject: Re: demagnetizing force
References: <01BC695A.63CD8E00@chiltepine.ucdavis.edu>
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Dan Quickert wrote:
> 
> Epitaxy wrote (in Re: Non anomaly (Re: SMOT)):
> 
> [snip]
>  >Please remember that the demagnetizing force MUST oppose the
> magnetization
>  >polarity of a permanent magnet in order to do ANY "damage".  This means
> S-S
>  > or N-N (ie. Repelling mode) is necessary to demagnetize a permanent
> magnet.
> [snip]
> 
> In all of the ramp setups, to make each side assembly, multiple magnets are
> laid end-to-end with like poles of both magnets facing the same direction.
> The ends have to be forced together and held there, because in that
> configuration there are opposing fields at the union between magnets. Is
> this going to demagnetize them?
> 
> Dan Quickert

Hi Dan,

Have not seen that happen.  The sims I have done suggest they become
like a larger magnet.  The pull force grows as more magnets are added. 
This to me indicates that the magnets are moving up their B/H curve, not
down.  This agrees with theory of long V short magnets and how they self
demag.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 01:45:39 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 04:31:03 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970526043103_587577254@emout19.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com, harti@bbtt.de, gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Subject: SMOT 1.0 - UPDATE - Quickfield diagrams
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Hi All,

Today, I have updated my web site with the Quick Field simulation pictures of
Greg Watson.

You will find all these pictures and diagrams about the SMOT's magnetic flux
density at : http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/smot1qfl.htm

Overunity yours,

Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 02:06:23 1997
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:34:31 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Hi All,

Here is the info on my magnet supplier :

Company :

  JayCar Electronics,
  PO Box 185,
  Concord NSW, 2137,
  Australia

  Phone 61 2 2743 6144
  Fax   61 2 2743 2066

  They accept : BankCard, Visa, MasterCard, American Express.

Product description :

  TH1876,
  Frij Magnets-13x9x4mm,
  Pk100,
  $4.95 (Aust including 20% sales Tax)

Hope this helps,

I have verified that strong tape works ok to hold the magnet arrays
together.  Just use it on both sides.

I build my latest arrays using a small flat piece of steel as a base.  I
stuck the magnets together using the steel base and the two side rails. 
Get everything together, nice and square and apply a piece of tape to
the top of the magnets.  Then slide the array off the steel base and
apply the tape to the other side.  Remove one of the side steel rails
and the array is finished.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 02:22:36 1997
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Message-ID: <338955EA.4679@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:50:42 +0930
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Hi All,

Here is a good party trick for the SMOT ramp.

Hold 6 to 8 (or what ever you can hold) balls in you hand and drop them
onto the flat starting ramp at about 2 per second.  Most ramps will
support 2 to 3 balls in flight at one time.

Its really neat to watch so much mass moving through the SMOT ramp.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 02:26:48 1997
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:54:52 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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References: <01BC6955.A8057D80@bantha.mdm.mke.execpc.com>
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Hawkeye wrote:
> 
> What would happen if a magnetized ball was used?

Don't think it would work.  I believe part of the secret is the use of a
soft ferromagnetic material.

> In the search for over-unity wouldn't it be easier to make devices that use friction to make power?
> What if the ramp was replaced by a series of magnetic rings (large to small in order)?

Could work, but I would worry about the mag field contours on exit.  Not
too easy to control.

> I am just throwing my thoughts into the air and looking at where they land.

Its called thinking outside the square.

> Robert Hawkins. 'Hawkeye"

HI Robert,

Thanks for the inout.  Keep thinking and BUILD a SMOT ramp.


Best Results,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 02:30:32 1997
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:45:51 +0930
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References: <l03102800afaecd9fa6a9@[207.147.203.146]>
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Greg & all:
> 
> Where are you people getting the balls to use with Greg's SMOT? I keep
> seeing  mouse balls mentioned. I have two, and there's no ferromagnetic
> material in them. And now Epitaxy has hollow glass marbles he can fill with
> filings or ferrite?! Hey Epitaxy, I've got some bismuth powder - want to
> mix some of that in there and see if the sphere gets even lighter as it
> rides the neutral line? If it is a gravitational effect, then Greg's more
> advanced design(s) that might use springs for the return force might not
> work.
> 
> What kind of mouse balls have iron in them? I'd want to strip off the
> rubber, but is the surface under there rough? I don't want to have to
> figure out how to sand and polish to a perfect sphere.
> 
> I've got magnets, I've got aluminum channel, I've got Sintra (great plastic
> balsa substitute), but ...
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI

Hi Rick,

Call any bearing supplier.  Ask for naked balls.  Really!


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 02:30:31 1997
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:58:04 +0930
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Subject: Re: SMOT v1.0 Result & Design Notes
References: <199705260718.AAA22241@iceland.it.earthlink.net>
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Michael Randall wrote:
> 
> At 07:14 AM 5/26/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote:
> >Michael Randall wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> USA standard ceramic block magnet dimensions:
> >> Part No.        Grade   Thick   Width   Lenght  Cost per Qty 100
> >> CB1434          5       0.25    0.375   0.75    $20
> >
> >I would use this one, smaller, easier to make different size arrays.
> 
> Thanks for the info.
> 
> >Hi Michael,
> >
> >I woulds go for the smaller magnets.  I have found that they work out
> >better.
> >
> >As a hint to building the arrays and being able to reuse the magnets, I
> >stack the maagnets together on a flat steel plate, get them square and
> >them skim the magnets with a THIN coating of superglue.  Let than dry
> >and then apply to the other side.  Now let the steel bar attach by
> >itself.  Building the arrays this way, I have found I can recover most
> >uf the magnets.  Other glues might work better.  I just thought of using
> >strong tape.  Should work ok.
> >
> >
> >Best Regards,
> > Greg
> 
> Hi Greg,
> 
> Thanks for the tips, I'll give it a try.
> 
> Results of experiments today:
> With Radio Shack magnets (0.75"x 0.25"x 0.875"L) and a close replica of your
> design.
> 
> 1. The 0.75" steel ball drops off the 0.5" alum. track to the next track below.
> 2. The magnetic field still holds the ball lightly at the track below.
> 3. The next magnetic ramp and assembly pulled the ball away from the first
> assembly.
> 
> Next building a second ramp to see if the 2nd magnetic field can carry it up
> and to the next drop. It should work as you and Dan have verified.
> 
> I found it interesting that all that was needed was to get the ball to the
> next ramp. Once there the next magnetic assembly can pull it away even if
> the first ramp mag. assembly had a hold on it. I don't see any problem in
> closing the loop with multiple ramps.
> 
> Design Notes:
> 1. The width of the magnets should be close to the width of the steel ball.
> 0.5" steel ball would not work with 0.75" width magnets but did work with
> 0.625" ball.
> 2. Greg's design with a magnet width even smaller than steel ball would
> probably be best. An added benefit being at the end drop the magnetic field
> would have a smaller effect on the steel ball sitting on the next lower
> track ramp verses larger width magnets.
> 
> It works! Thanks again for sharing your designs.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Michael

Hi Michael,

Glad to hear of your success.  Good work.

Any chance of pictures?


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 03:19:14 1997
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Message-Id: <199705261018.MAA13316@mail2.isdnet.net>
From: "chriser" <serchri@hol.fr>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: <pascalc@mail.worldnet.fr>
Subject: Magnets
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 12:18:27 +0200
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Hello Pascal

You can find the magnets not expensive ( 6$ for 6 magnets  9mmx20x10mm)
in supermarket :
the magnets use for board magnetic.

Greettings



"Vous pouvez trouver des aimants, pas chers,( exemple 24 fr les 6  dim
9mmx20mmX10mm) dans les supermarchs :
Les aimants utiliss pour les tableaux magntiques.

Greetings"


Chriser - France
serchri@hol.fr


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 03:28:56 1997
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Subject: RE: SMOT Construction Tips
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One of these miniature versions of the child's toy that you shake and a
differently colored liquids bubble up inside (kind of like a lavalamp).  It
is called "Magic marble".  You drill a little hole in it where they epoxied
the original inlet hole and replace the colored liquid with powdered iron
and than epoxy it closed again.  Presto - A very hard ball (low friction)
with little eddy currents and high magnetic permeability.

At 10:52 PM 5/25/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Epitaxy wrote:
>
> >I have found that a hollow glass marble filled with powdered iron (through
> >a small drilled hole) achieves greater lift than a hard-steel ball.
> >
> >The hard glass surface also decreases friction losses and the powdered iron
> >would eliminate any eddy current losses in the future.
>
>Sounds interesting. Where would one find a hollow glass marble?
>
>Dan Quickert
>dequickert@ucdavis.edu
>916-756-0575
>
>
>Attachment Converted: "c:\DOWN\WINMAIL23.DAT"
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 03:40:17 1997
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From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
Subject: Re: No SMOT balls?
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For regular bearing balls go to any shop that sells bearings.  They always
have replacement balls on hand.  In USA the chain store called Bearing Inc.
carries 6 pieces package of 1 inch (25mm) balls for $5.75.  Smaller sizes
also available

...but bearing balls do not have the best ferromagnetic properties, they
are very hard (they ought to be for a ball bearing :)

To get the best of both worlds get yourself one of these "Magic marbles" or
miniature "Snow globes", drill a little pinhole, pour out the liquid and/or
dissolve any plastic parts inside with paint thinner and then fill it up
with powdered iron (not filings, they are to coarse for the small hole).
Epoxy the hole shut and polish it up.  Presto - A very hard ball (low
friction) with little eddy currents and high magnetic permeability.

...or skin a mouse ball if you want.  Hint: heating it up burns of the
rubber and makes the hard steel softer..., unfortunately softer on the
outside as well, which means higher friction.


At 07:51 PM 5/25/97 -1000, you wrote:
>Greg & all:
>
>Where are you people getting the balls to use with Greg's SMOT? I keep
>seeing  mouse balls mentioned. I have two, and there's no ferromagnetic
>material in them. And now Epitaxy has hollow glass marbles he can fill with
>filings or ferrite?! Hey Epitaxy, I've got some bismuth powder - want to
>mix some of that in there and see if the sphere gets even lighter as it
>rides the neutral line? If it is a gravitational effect, then Greg's more
>advanced design(s) that might use springs for the return force might not
>work.
>
>What kind of mouse balls have iron in them? I'd want to strip off the
>rubber, but is the surface under there rough? I don't want to have to
>figure out how to sand and polish to a perfect sphere.
>
>I've got magnets, I've got aluminum channel, I've got Sintra (great plastic
>balsa substitute), but ...
>
>- Rick Monteverde
>Honolulu, HI
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 03:41:48 1997
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Don't forget the Service Pack 1 and Service Pack 2 and than the famous 28
"Win96" patches, to correct all of the holes and bugs in the original
release of Windows95.   

...and NO, I do not mean Microsoft Plus addon !



At 05:36 PM 5/26/97 +0930, you wrote:
>Fred Epps wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Folks!
>> 
>>    I am hassling with a new computer that occasionally completely freezes.
>> Nothing works but to shut it down, thus losing files.  It did so while
>> retrieving all my email of the last week and I lost all messages :-)
>> If anybody wrote me in the last week you'll have to resend it.  Sorry about
>> the problems.
>> 
>>                                     All Hail the Geat Satan Bill Gates,
>>                                      Fred
>
>Hi Fred,
>
>I have run Win95 since it came out.  Best thing since sliced bread.  I
>use Netscape 3.0 Gold.  Seems to be a solid package.  As a old computer
>designer, I would suspect your hardware.  Get into the setup and try
>slowing down the ram.  If things settle down, suspect you have some soft
>ram simms.  If not, suspect your MotherBoard.  I say again, Win95 seems
>to be very soild.
>
>
>Best Regards,
> Greg
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 04:07:32 1997
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
Subject: Re: SMOT balls?
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Err...  It should have been Bearings Inc.

Also in response to the objections some of you voiced:... the glass marbles
ARE harder than the bearing balls.   As a matter of fact GLASS is harder
than most iron based alloys !




At 03:27 AM 5/26/97 -0700, I wrote:
>
>For regular bearing balls go to any shop that sells bearings.  They always
>have replacement balls on hand.  In USA the chain store called Bearing Inc.
>carries 6 pieces package of 1 inch (25mm) balls for $5.75.  Smaller sizes
>also available
>
>...but bearing balls do not have the best ferromagnetic properties, they
>are very hard (they ought to be for a ball bearing :)
>
>For best of both worlds, fill up a glass ball with powdered iron...

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 06:34:38 1997
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:33:58 -0400
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: richarda@icx.net (Richard Austin)
Subject: Re: To continue...
Resent-Message-ID: <"DmpEU1.0.Bp3.D5PYp"@mx1>
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Just a note...
It's not available for all operating systems yet...I can't use it yet.

>Now, this e-mail may not be about ZPE but it may help people talk more
>about ZPE. As already mentioned ICQ alows people to know who on their
>contact list are online. If everyone got the ICQ program that can be found
>at:
>http://www.mirabilis.com
>They can easily send files, messages, chat, and send URLs.
>This would mean that they could continue talking to people on this list
>about old subjects, modifications to projects, and other items.
>Once you get the free program all you have to do is tell us your UIN.
>If you don't think you need it remember:
>live chat with only the people you invite into the chat.

Richard Austin  --  email: richarda@icx.net  --  radio: KG7SU
Check out the Institute for Planetary Renewal at
http://user.icx.net/~richarda


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 07:28:35 1997
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Message-Id: <m0wW0YI-00076uC@most.weird.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:15:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: woods@most.weird.com (Greg A. Woods)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Re : Watson/Teamwork
In-Reply-To: Greg Watson's message
	of "Mon, May 26, 1997 17:47:27 +0930"
	regarding "Re: Re : Watson/Teamwork"
	id <33894717.6733@microtronics.com.au>
References: <01BC6906.992B4000@bantha.mdm.mke.execpc.com>
	<m0wVrLj-00076uC@most.weird.com>
	<33894717.6733@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: woods@weird.com (Greg A. Woods)
X-Mailer: ViewMail (vm) Version 5.96 (beta)
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Organization: Planix, Inc.; Toronto, Ontario; Canada
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[ On Mon, May 26, 1997 at 17:47:27 (+0930), Greg Watson wrote: ]
> Subject: Re: Re : Watson/Teamwork
>
> I have posted Quick Field Sims to Jean-Louis's web site.
> 
> I had a look at the site you suggested and at a pricing of over $20,000
> Aust, I think I will stay with QField.

I was afraid of that, and I admit I've not had time to browse their site
myself.  Anyone who can advertise a specialized product like that on
even the inside back cover of something like Spectrum must be charging a
fair bit.  Now that I've taken a quick tour I see that their EM Product
family (in particular the Maxwell EM 3D Field Simulaor and the
Electromechanical System Simulator) is indeed quite impressive.  If
anyone on the list does have access to this software it would be most
interesting to see what they can discover from using it.  Part of their
price may include some hardware -- I read in the EM 3D press release of
custom ASIC devices to assist the animation so maybe the software itself
is not the larger part of the total price.

I was not aware though that Quick Field was indeed a software package.
Is there any chance it or something like it would run on unix/X11?  I've
access to all kinds of workstations and of course can use my display at
home and powerful SGI or Alpha processors at client sites, or even my
own DEC Alpha workstation.  However I don't have a PC in the house, and
no plans to acquire one, even if it means doing without the use of
software like this.  Soon my Alpha may run PC software though....

I'm particularly interested in software which could animate field
simulations.  I once dreamt (whether it was a day-dream or a true REM
sleep dream I don't recall) of using magnets on ramps and gravity like
this many years ago.  I never really tried though as I couldn't see any
way to make the field give up the ball if it were strong enough to lift
it up the ramp in the first place.  Unfortunately my undersanding of
magnetics is extremely limited and my ability to visualize fields is
nearly nil despite having spent many hours with magnets and iron filings
in my younger years.  I will build the "toys" though if I can find some
spare time in my workshop, and if I can acquire the necessary materials
for the experiments.

However since software is my forte these days and since a full
simulation may both be a great "marketing" aid as well as a tool that
may help us understand what's going on, I'd like to see what's going on
at the theoretical level.

-- 
							Greg A. Woods

+1 416 443-1734			VE3TCP			robohack!woods
Planix, Inc. <woods@planix.com>; Secrets of the Weird <woods@weird.com>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 08:02:50 1997
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From: Tixif@aol.com
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:49:30 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970526104929_1256851263@emout12.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: ICQList
Resent-Message-ID: <"8ugvy1.0.ND2.UDQYp"@mx2>
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I'm on the ICQ List.  To develop the list, select only the address list and
then reply and add yours.  Shawn

Shawn Stroud #1332533 (EMail=Tixif@aol.com)

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 08:55:18 1997
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Message-ID: <3389A9D4.5C5E@worldonline.nl>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:18:44 +0200
From: Ronald de Mol <catware@worldonline.nl>
Organization: World Online
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: WWW Page
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Hi All,

New WWW page with Greg Watson Projecs online.

I hope to have my own photos also soon online,
But I have not yet found the right magnets!
(the little ones are hard to find here...)

See it at  HTTP://www.worldonline.nl/~catware

--
Thanks,
Ronald de mol.
catware@worldonline.nl
WEB Page HTTP://www.worldonline.nl/~catware

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 10:00:34 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 12:58:53 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970526125850_-1398170008@emout10.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
cc: Tixif@aol.com
Subject: Re : ICQList
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<< I'm on the ICQ List.  To develop the list, select only the address list
and
 then reply and add yours.  
 
 Shawn Stroud #1332533 (EMail=Tixif@aol.com)
 Jean-Louis Naudin #747846 (Email=JNaudin509@aol.com)
  >>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 10:26:26 1997
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From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705261708.NAA28412@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: Re: SMOT v1.0 Result & Design Notes
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 13:08:51 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <199705260718.AAA22241@iceland.it.earthlink.net> from "Michael Randall" at May 26, 97 00:18:28 am
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Look, can you make the field cycle?  Then when the ball falls down, it can
be lifted back up.  Where is the energy coming from?  The earth's
rotation?  The gravity?

Andrew -- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 10:37:26 1997
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:21:17 -0700
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: "Mary C." <maryc@inc-g.com>
Subject: Re: lost email
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Fred,

Check the voltage jumpers for the CPU located on the motherboard. Most
Intel chips want 3.3V exactly, while the default on many motherboards is
3.45V or higher. The symptoms of the mismatch match your description,
especially on new "unproven" machines <g>.

Mary C.

At 06:45 PM 5/25/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi Folks!
>
>   I am hassling with a new computer that occasionally completely freezes.
>Nothing works but to shut it down, thus losing files.  It did so while
>retrieving all my email of the last week and I lost all messages :-)
>If anybody wrote me in the last week you'll have to resend it.  Sorry about
>the problems.
>
>                                    All Hail the Geat Satan Bill Gates,
>                                     Fred
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 10:43:54 1997
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From: Hawkeye <havveye@execpc.com>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: ICQ/ramp power!
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 12:36:01 -0500
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Your talks (via chat ICQ) can be saved. any messages will be in your =
history folder. I am not saying all talks should be on ICQ, but if you =
are working on a device another person is working on, and they are =
online, you can talk to them and see what you come up with. What you =
come up with can be sent to this list.=20

BTW: The demagnetizing of the magnets might be the energy source that =
the device uses. 
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 11:10:32 1997
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Message-ID: <3389FB8E.59A5@tiac.net>
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:07:26 -0700
From: Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
Reply-To: bshannon@tiac.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Energy from "Nowhere"
References: <01BC6906.9F17F940@bantha.mdm.mke.execpc.com>
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Hawkeye wrote:
> 
> It is good to not only know how to make something work, but also know why it works. From what I have read the energy comes from a field that keeps objects in existance.
> 
> What would happed if you created a "Black hole." or multiple "Black holes" around one area where all the ZPE was going into the "Black holes" that capture the ZPE instead of keeping the objects in the one area in existance?
> 
> just a question.

It would be a really bad thing.

We might have to use a great deal more energy to repair this 'condition
of space' created by the device than the total ammount of energy that
device had produced during its total time of operation.

From freenrg-digest-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 11:24:08 1997
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This is a MIME-encapsulated message

--LAA03003.864671038/mx1.eskimo.com

The original message was received at Mon, 26 May 1997 10:43:58 -0700
from smartlst@localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
ryb1989@dsuper.net

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to oracle.dsuper.net.:
>>> RCPT To:<ryb1989@dsuper.net>
<<< 550 <ryb1989@dsuper.net>... Addressee unknown
550 ryb1989@dsuper.net... User unknown

--LAA03003.864671038/mx1.eskimo.com
Content-Type: message/delivery-status

Reporting-MTA: dns; mx1.eskimo.com
Arrival-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:43:58 -0700

Final-Recipient: rfc822; ryb1989@dsuper.net
Action: failed
Status: 5.1.1
Remote-MTA: dns; oracle.dsuper.net
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 <ryb1989@dsuper.net>... Addressee unknown
Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:15:44 -0700

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 11:38:06 1997
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:22:36 -0700
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
Subject: Re: SMOT v1.0 Result & Design Notes
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Perhaps when the ball is subjected to the magnetic field (on the neutral
center line) it looses a little of gravitational weight and/or mass
inertia, thus it is easier to lift it up the ramp.  The ball regains all of
its weight and/or mass after it exits the ramp and the net difference
manifests as the extra kinetic energy.

Mr. Watson suggested that if this theory is correct the SMOT should be
changed to SMAGOT  (Simple Magnetic Anti Gravity OU Toy  :)

Of course the electron (and/or nucleus) ground state ZPE regeneration is
still a plausible explanation for the source of energy as well as thermal
negative-entropy, vibration rectification, chemical bond energy of the
ferrite or PMs, remanent ferrite magnetization, etc...  

What matters the most - it works !


At 01:08 PM 5/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Look, can you make the field cycle?  Then when the ball falls down, it can
>be lifted back up.  Where is the energy coming from?  The earth's
>rotation?  The gravity?
>
>Andrew -- 
>+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
>|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
>|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
>+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
>|                                                                      |
>|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
>|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
>|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
>|                                                                      |
>+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 11:45:25 1997
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From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
Subject: RE: ICQ/ramp power!
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According to conventional theory, the demagnetization of the magnets can
only happen if the magnets are subjected to an opposing (read: Repelling)
magnetic field above the intrinsic demagnetization threshold.  (That is
aside from mechanical shock and Curie temperature.)

In SMOT the magnet arrays are in the attracting mode and the eddy currents
in the ball do not exceed the demagnetization threshold.  The eddies are
easily suppressed by using a glass ball filled with iron powder.  In any
case the magnetic field created by the eddy currents will not have greater
intensity than the field of permanent magnets that are inducing the eddies
in the ball with their magnetic field.

If anything the presence of the ball between the two attracting magnetic
arrays only helps to maintain the magnet's magnetization, because the ball
form a high permeability path for the magnetic flux IN THE SAME DIRECTION
as the polarization of the magnet's domains !

Look at the demagnetization values for various magnetic alloys.


Material  Grade  Demagnet  Curie  BH-Strength

NdFeB     g39 -  21,300    150    40
SmCo	    g26 -  10,000    300    26
AlNiCo    g05 -     640    540     5.5
Ceramic   g08 -   3,200    300     3.5    (BaFe2O3  or  SrFe2O3 ceramic
alloys)
Flexible  g01 -   1,300    100     0.6


Grade = Material quality grade (alloy type ie. ALNICO 5)
Demagnet = Minimum Demagnetizing force in Oersteds
Curie = Curie Temperature in Degrees Celsius
BH-Strength = Maximum Energy Product in Mega Gauss Oersteds (MGO)


The above clearly shows that AlNiCo is THE EASIEST to demagnetize.  However
AlNiCo has the highest Curie temperature of them all - 540degC.  The
Neodymium (NdFeB) magnets are the strongest (ie. they have the highest
energy product).  Flexible magnets are the weakest.



At 12:36 PM 5/26/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>BTW: The demagnetizing of the magnets might be the energy source that the
device uses. 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 11:49:40 1997
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From: "Fred Epps" <fepps@mail1.halcyon.com>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: computer problems, and inspiration
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:42:34 -0700
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To Dan, Greg, Epitaxy, and Mary...and all on the lists,

   I want to thank you all for the help that you've given me with my
computer problem.  Everything is running smoothly now (fingers crossed). 
The problem turned out be setup program that the manufacturer (NEC)
"suggested" I use, ostensibly to make the desktop look like an NEC desktop,
whatever that is.  Of course I didn't run it.  Turns out that Win95 won't
run unless you do this!
   The variety of possible fixes suggested opened my eyes to the sheer
number of things that can go wrong witrh a a computer.  Kinda frightening,
it's amazing that any of them work at all.
   The assistance I've been given, as well as the cooperation that Greg's
device has engendered, give me new hope for the human race.  As a
bookseller that's been working with the public for 15 years with only short
vacations, I have gone well into burnout.  Burnout is characterized by a
loss of idealism and cynicism about people and their motivations. Seeing
the true idealism of Greg and all those who are working toward the same
ends is REALLY inspiring to me. I can see the basic goodness of people
again. This is a very important lesson for me.
   I hope that in my theoretical way I can be of some assistance to this
project at some point, although I am at a loss to know how at this time. I
am installing a flatbed scanner today (more fingers crossed).  My intention
is to make my voluminous files available to all on the list electronically.
 I think this is what I can do at this point to help the Quest for
Overunity, as Jean-Louis calls it.

                                            Heartfelt Thanks,
                                            Fred 

   

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 12:01:00 1997
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:59:10 -0700
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From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
Subject: Re: Reflecting the flux of the SMOT magnets
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Yes the eddie currents in the ball do reflect the magnetic flux of the
magnet arrays back into the magnets.  But this effect is very small and
insignificant, unable to cause the demagnetization of the permanent magnets.

Reflecting the full flux into the permanent magnet by eddie currents would
require a superconducting ball anyway and zero distance between the ball
and the magnetic array on either side of the ramp. In reality very little
of the magnetic flux is reflected into the magnets by the eddie currents in
the ball, most of the eddies are dissipated in the form of RI^2 heating
within the ball and their magnetic flux dispersed in the air gap between
the ball and magnetic arrays of the SMOT.

Even under ideal conditions only 100% (not more) of the magnetic flux could
be reflected back into the magnets.


The eddies in the ball are easily suppressed by using a glass ball filled
with iron powder.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 13:31:11 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:29:41 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970526162939_1223327305@emout13.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re : Re: SMOT v1.0 Result & Design Notes
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On 26/05/1997 20:40:30  , Epitaxy wrote :

<< Mr. Watson suggested that if this theory is correct the SMOT should be
 changed to SMAGOT  (Simple Magnetic Anti Gravity OU Toy  :)
 
 Of course the electron (and/or nucleus) ground state ZPE regeneration is
 still a plausible explanation for the source of energy as well as thermal
 negative-entropy, vibration rectification, chemical bond energy of the
 ferrite or PMs, remanent ferrite magnetization, etc...  
 
 What matters the most - it works !
  >>

Hi all,

You may find some interesting explanations about the Magnetic Regauging
effect at : http://www.virtualtimes.com/writers/bearden/mageng/p06.htm

Sincerely,

Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 14:37:38 1997
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:46:11 +0200
From: Ronald de Mol <catware@worldonline.nl>
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Greg Watson wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I have posted 8 QField sims of the SMOT device to Jean-Louis.  They
> should shortly be available to view.  Jean-Louis will advise us when he
> is finished.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Build a SMOT, if you haven't started DO IT NOW!
> 
> Best Regards,
>  Greg

Hi Greg,

Thanks for the 8 Qfield Gifs.

Could you make another 4 of them ?
Like the 'Looking into the exit, linked ramp below', but then with a
dropping ball, in four steps valling from the top exit to the bottem
next ramp ?

And for the BUILD phase...
I have earlyer already 2 models made, one with round alnico-5 magnets
and one with 50x19x5 magnets (Both a succes for a SINGLE model).
The problem is that I really need the 13x10x5 magnets and I can't find
them anywhere yet.
Here comes my problem: In ALL the models I have made and seen, the
exit point is just before the start of the last magnet.
(could more people confirm that ?, or am i wrong.)
if the lenght of one magnet is 50mm (as in my earlyer model) Then there
is a approx 60mm 'behind' the drop point area and that is NOT good for
linking ramps toghetter I think.

And as second reason I want to duplicate the project as good as possible.

Tomorrow I gonna call all the magnet supplyers I can find, in the hope
that there is at least ONE that sells the 13x10x5 magnets !
(or verry similair ones.)
If so I buy 1000 of them if not to $$$.

Thanks in advance.
Ronald.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 15:07:18 1997
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Also, an uncooled CPU processor is often the cause of spurious system 
failure and unexpected errors !

Pascal Cavy

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 15:07:25 1997
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Subject: RE: ICQ/ramp power!
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Just another fool's out of the square idea : 

To verify that magnet strength is "conserved" or not, why not design 
a SMOT stress machine ?
Greg, I think, told us to try to drop 2 balls a second in the ramp... 
We could imagine a system that collect the balls at exit and feed 
back the system upon entry. Just a means as artificially closing the 
loop. After days of continuous run, if magnets are consumed a little 
by the process, is there a mean to measure the loss, if any ?

Pascal cavy


> Date:          Mon, 26 May 1997 11:44:42 -0700
> To:            freenrg-l@eskimo.com
> From:          Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
> Subject:       RE: ICQ/ramp power!
> Reply-to:      freenrg-l@eskimo.com

> 
> According to conventional theory, the demagnetization of the magnets
> can only happen if the magnets are subjected to an opposing (read:
> Repelling) magnetic field above the intrinsic demagnetization
> threshold.  (That is aside from mechanical shock and Curie
> temperature.)
> 
> In SMOT the magnet arrays are in the attracting mode and the eddy
> currents in the ball do not exceed the demagnetization threshold. 
> The eddies are easily suppressed by using a glass ball filled with
> iron powder.  In any case the magnetic field created by the eddy
> currents will not have greater intensity than the field of permanent
> magnets that are inducing the eddies in the ball with their magnetic
> field.
> 
> If anything the presence of the ball between the two attracting
> magnetic arrays only helps to maintain the magnet's magnetization,
> because the ball form a high permeability path for the magnetic flux
> IN THE SAME DIRECTION as the polarization of the magnet's domains !
> 
> Look at the demagnetization values for various magnetic alloys.
> 
> 
> Material  Grade  Demagnet  Curie  BH-Strength
> 
> NdFeB     g39 -  21,300    150    40
> SmCo	    g26 -  10,000    300    26
> AlNiCo    g05 -     640    540     5.5
> Ceramic   g08 -   3,200    300     3.5    (BaFe2O3  or  SrFe2O3
> ceramic alloys) Flexible  g01 -   1,300    100     0.6
> 
> 
> Grade = Material quality grade (alloy type ie. ALNICO 5)
> Demagnet = Minimum Demagnetizing force in Oersteds
> Curie = Curie Temperature in Degrees Celsius
> BH-Strength = Maximum Energy Product in Mega Gauss Oersteds (MGO)
> 
> 
> The above clearly shows that AlNiCo is THE EASIEST to demagnetize. 
> However AlNiCo has the highest Curie temperature of them all -
> 540degC.  The Neodymium (NdFeB) magnets are the strongest (ie. they
> have the highest energy product).  Flexible magnets are the weakest.
> 
> 
> 
> At 12:36 PM 5/26/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >BTW: The demagnetizing of the magnets might be the energy source that the
> device uses. 
> 
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 15:25:44 1997
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Message-ID: <338A0D4F.402C@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:53:11 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Science wig. sig. wrote:
> 
> Does the ball float above the ramp?

No, but magnetic forces reduce the frictional losses as it climbs the
ramp.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 15:32:26 1997
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Message-Id: <199705262219.SAA07418@ns.bluegrass.net>
From: "Sam Gordon" <lance@bluegrass.net>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: This SMOT thing works!!
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:13:41 -0400
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     Hello Greg and all,
 
     First thanks for the posted info.  I made a ramp somewhat like the one
in your diagram. (do in part that most stores are closed today) I ended up
glueing a piece of aluminum u channel on an old cd case then glueing a cd
case on each side of the channel. I couldn't find any small refrig magnets
so I used 16 round 11mm x 4mm
ceramic mags i had here, That I glued on a piece of hacksaw blade which is
10mm wide x 1.5 or 2mm thick I managed to get the steel ball to roll up the
ramp 8 mm higher
than the starting elev. As soon as work and time permit I shall build one
exactly as you have shown. I found the bearings at Napa auto parts the guys
there save them for
sling shot ammo. Looking forward to future posts.
 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 15:41:41 1997
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Subject: Re: ICQ/ramp power!
References: <01BC69D2.4F8FBD00@handkase.mdm.mke.execpc.com>
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Hawkeye wrote:
> 
> BTW: The demagnetizing of the magnets might be the energy source that the device uses.

Hi Hawkeye,

Haven't seen that happen to any modern magnet.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 15:48:51 1997
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From: harti@harti.com (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: Re: Added Link to JLNaudins Page 
Cc: JNaudin509@AOL.COM, gwatson@microtronics.com.au
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Hi Greg and Jean-Louis,

I guess, that the field change of B via
dB/dx
in this picture must be different for the
entrance and the exit, so the ball will role up
and easily exit. If

-dB/dx(exit) > dB/dx(entrance)

the ball will roll up and exit easily !

Have a look again at this pic !


http://members.aol.com/overunity2/images/s-top-xy.gif

Regards, Stefan.
--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 15:53:20 1997
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From: harti@bbtt.de (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: -dB/dx(exit) > dB/dx(entrance)
Cc: JNaudin509@AOL.COM, gwatson@microtronics.com.au
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Hi Greg and Jean-Louis,

I guess, that the field change of B via
dB/dx
in this picture must be different for the
entrance and the exit, so the ball will role up
and easily exit. If

-dB/dx(exit) > dB/dx(entrance)

the ball will roll up and exit easily !

Have a look again at this pic !


http://members.aol.com/overunity2/images/s-top-xy.gif

Regards, Stefan.
--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 15:56:47 1997
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Message-ID: <338A1483.24A8@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:23:55 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Stefan Hartmann wrote:
> 
> Hi Greg and Jean-Louis,
> 
> I guess, that the field change of B via
> dB/dx
> in this picture must be different for the
> entrance and the exit, so the ball will role up
> and easily exit. If
> 
> -dB/dx(exit) > dB/dx(entrance)
> 
> the ball will roll up and exit easily !
> 
> Have a look again at this pic !
> 
> http://members.aol.com/overunity2/images/s-top-xy.gif
> 
> Regards, Stefan.

Hi Stefan,

You MUST also consider the size of the ball.  Its diameter has a large
effect in the function of the ramp.  I believe my design has been tuned
to a 12mm ball.  I am not saying that ALL must use a 12mm ball, but be
aware that ball size does effect opeartion.

There is a real tie-in of the ball's diameter and the field coutours
(the rate and distance over which the mag field changes).


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 15:58:25 1997
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From: HLafonte@aol.com
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:43:09 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970526184307_2086795648@emout20.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Don't call it a toy!
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Greg,
   Calling this device a toy is like calling a volcano a lava lamp! If this
turns out to be want has been claimed, (ou), then children (and adults) will
be playing with the energy that makes the universe "tick". Please don't
demean the discovery by calling it a toy!
Butch LaFonte

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 16:07:31 1997
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:18:25 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT QField Sims
References: <3388D7A2.124C@microtronics.com.au> <3389F693.7811@worldonline.nl>
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Ronald de Mol wrote:
> 
> Could you make another 4 of them ?
> Like the 'Looking into the exit, linked ramp below', but then with a
> dropping ball, in four steps valling from the top exit to the bottem
> next ramp ?

OK, will send in the next few hours.

> And for the BUILD phase...
> I have earlyer already 2 models made, one with round alnico-5 magnets
> and one with 50x19x5 magnets (Both a succes for a SINGLE model).
> The problem is that I really need the 13x10x5 magnets and I can't find
> them anywhere yet.
> Here comes my problem: In ALL the models I have made and seen, the
> exit point is just before the start of the last magnet.

13-15mm in from the end.

> (could more people confirm that ?, or am i wrong.)
> if the lenght of one magnet is 50mm (as in my earlyer model) Then there
> is a approx 60mm 'behind' the drop point area and that is NOT good for
> linking ramps toghetter I think.
> 
> And as second reason I want to duplicate the project as good as possible.
> 
> Tomorrow I gonna call all the magnet supplyers I can find, in the hope
> that there is at least ONE that sells the 13x10x5 magnets !
> (or verry similair ones.)
> If so I buy 1000 of them if not to $$$.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> Ronald.

Hi Ronald,

The exit point is not related to the size of the magnets used.

It varies with magnet strength and top spacing but it is around 13-15mm
down from the top end of the magnets.

When smaller magnets are joined together (tightly), they function as a
solid magnet.  While the joins will cause some small field variations,
it is really very small if they are tightly packed together.

The steel bar along the back REALLY helps to even out the field.  Its
one of the secrets.  Don't make it too thin, you may saturate it.  I
believe 3mm is a min thickness to get good mag field distribution in the
ramp.  Look at the ramp sims and see how the bar funnels flux back and
forth to even things out.  Its works like magic.

Will the wonders of soft ferromagnetic material ever stop?


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 16:17:16 1997
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:30:02 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT Magnets
References: <3389521F.1502@microtronics.com.au> <33899A63.3BF3@ix.netcom.com>
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Dave DeLeo wrote:
> 
> Greg Watson wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Here is the info on my magnet supplier :
> >
> > Company :
> >
> >   JayCar Electronics,
> >   PO Box 185,
> >   Concord NSW, 2137,
> >   Australia
> >
> >   Phone 61 2 2743 6144
> >   Fax   61 2 2743 2066
> >
> >   They accept : BankCard, Visa, MasterCard, American Express.
> >
> > Product description :
> >
> >   TH1876,
> >   Frij Magnets-13x9x4mm,
> >   Pk100,
> >   $4.95 (Aust including 20% sales Tax)
> >
> 
> Think they will ship to the US?
> 
> Dave DeLeo

Hi Dave,

Yes.  Minus 20% sales tax.  Min order $50 Aust.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 16:19:44 1997
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:47:05 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Tom Miller wrote:
> 
> Greg:
> 
> I have looked at the Qfield sims. Thanks, again.
> 
> Suggestions:
> 
> 1. Consider the iron band on the outside of each magnet
> assembly. If you were to extend that band, around the
> EXIT END of each individual magnet assembly, AND extend
> it 1/2 inch (12.5 mm) BACK along the inside of the magnet
> assembly, would it not diminish the B field at the exit end?
> Wouldn't this help the ball to exit?

Tried that some time ago.  Really boosts the field in the ramp (joining
the steel backing plates).

Running the steel bar inside the magnet arrays would kill the field
there and move the magnet bounce back wall further down the ramp.  Any
reduction in mag field strength along the ramp will cause the ball to be
repelled back down the ramp.  Its the same force that drives the ball up
the ramp.

The trick is to get a soft exit field (the field goes away slowly) and
control the field contours below the magnet arrays as the ball exits.

> 2.   Less likely, but possible: How about an iron band
> connecting the two ENTRANCE ends, (side to side, not exit
> to entrance) but far enough away to have negligible effect
> on the iron ball? Say, under the balsa wood.

That will help, but really complicate being able to adjust the magnet
array positions.

The design as presented is the result of many hours of development
work.  It works and is simple to build.  While I don't want to stop
experimentation, PLEASE build the device first, SEE it working and then
EXPERIMENT to your hearts content.

> 3.  Could these keepers allow the magnet assemblies to
> be placed more parallel, and just maybe, render unnecessary
> the use of gravity to break the ball free from the exit end?

No.  Its not gravity but the difference in the field contours that I
believe makes the ramp work.  Seems we are stuck with gravity to assist
the change in the mag field's contours under the ramps for a while.

> Tom Miller

Hi Tom,

I was keeping the linking of the steel backing plates at the end under
my hat for awhile.

Nothing like thinking, other than BUILDING.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 16:41:09 1997
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Message-ID: <338A1B59.2182@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:53:05 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: This SMOT thing works!!
References: <199705262219.SAA07418@ns.bluegrass.net>
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Sam Gordon wrote:
> 
>      Hello Greg and all,
> 
>      First thanks for the posted info.  I made a ramp somewhat like the one
> in your diagram. (do in part that most stores are closed today) I ended up
> glueing a piece of aluminum u channel on an old cd case then glueing a cd
> case on each side of the channel. I couldn't find any small refrig magnets
> so I used 16 round 11mm x 4mm
> ceramic mags i had here, That I glued on a piece of hacksaw blade which is
> 10mm wide x 1.5 or 2mm thick I managed to get the steel ball to roll up the
> ramp 8 mm higher
> than the starting elev. As soon as work and time permit I shall build one
> exactly as you have shown. I found the bearings at Napa auto parts the guys
> there save them for
> sling shot ammo. Looking forward to future posts.
> 

Hi Sam,

Glad to welcome you to the SMOT club.

Yes it does work.

But the really big CHARGE is when we go to Phase 2 and get 4 linked
ramps working.  Seeing the ball travel through 4 linked ramps and NOT
slow down is mind blowing.

Things really get exciting then.

The ball bearings for sling shot ammo is a good idea.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 16:40:41 1997
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Message-Id: <9705262340.AA30344@mail1.halcyon.com>
From: "Fred Epps" <fepps@mail1.halcyon.com>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: computer problems
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:39:45 -0700
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Hi Folks,

   Well, I guess I spoke too soon. Freezeup started again when I tried to
load scanner software.  I think it must be a Win software problem because
ScanDisk freezes up at the same point every time-- would think if it was
hardware it wouldn't happen at the same place.
   Scandisk come on every time i run windows, and I have to shut it off to
run programs.
Obviously at any moment the horror will strike again :-()
   Whatever it is, it's over my head.  I appreciate everyone's help but I'm
not going to try to fix it, I'm going to take it back...maybe I can get
them to give me an even fancier computer that I understand even less...  
                                          Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 17:03:31 1997
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Message-ID: <338A2485.507B@worldonline.nl>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 02:02:13 +0200
From: Ronald de Mol <catware@worldonline.nl>
Organization: World Online
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Fred Epps wrote:
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
>    Well, I guess I spoke too soon. Freezeup started again when I tried to
> load scanner software.  I think it must be a Win software problem because
> ScanDisk freezes up at the same point every time-- would think if it was
> hardware it wouldn't happen at the same place.
>    Scandisk come on every time i run windows, and I have to shut it off to
> run programs.
> Obviously at any moment the horror will strike again :-()
>    Whatever it is, it's over my head.  I appreciate everyone's help but I'm
> not going to try to fix it, I'm going to take it back...maybe I can get
> them to give me an even fancier computer that I understand even less...
>                                           Fred

This is almost 100 % an EMS fault , Check if mem above F000 is used.
if so turn it of. :+)

Refards,
Ronald.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 17:15:29 1997
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Message-ID: <338A2366.7B05@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:27:26 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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Subject: Re: Other's inspected the closed loop?
References: <199705261711.NAA28728@big.seorf.ohiou.edu> <338A0D4F.402C@microtronics.com.au> <338A1E30.490D@sn.no>
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Frank Roed wrote:
> 
> Hello Greg
> 
> Are there other's who has inspected your closed loop
> version of the SMOT? Some local's that could confirm the device
> as working....Just a little sceptic you now....

No, not yet.  But soon you can!
> 
> Well it probably work's, since you sound very honest.
> 
> I'am building one too, and got some questions.
> 
> 1. Whith 12mm ball, what is your inner width of the aluminium track?

9mm.

> 2. How important is the "steel bar" back the magnets?

Very.  Helps to even out the field.
 
> 3. My magnets are 20mm x 10mm x 5mm , so my magnet ramp makes 100mm,
>    what length do you recommend on the aluminium track?

85mm.  (Ramp should be about 13-15mm less than the length of the magnet
arrays.

> 4. And with my magnets, 5mm depth instead of your 4mm, your
>    recommendation on number of magnet layers?
>    (Or should i get exact your magnet spec.?)

3 should work ok.  Its the overall width of the array thats important. 
With my ceramics, I found that 16mm worked well, so 15mm (3x5mm) should
be ok.

> Well, enough questions for now.
> 
> Thank's for your interest in helping us, and for shareing your work!!!
> 
> Best regards
> Frank

Hi Frank,

Don't forget to tell us when you get it working.  

Can you send pictures?


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 17:22:24 1997
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Message-ID: <338A253D.2B85@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:35:17 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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Subject: Re: Don't call it a toy!
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HLafonte@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Greg,
>    Calling this device a toy is like calling a volcano a lava lamp! If this
> turns out to be want has been claimed, (ou), then children (and adults) will
> be playing with the energy that makes the universe "tick". Please don't
> demean the discovery by calling it a toy!
> Butch LaFonte

Hi Butch,

I call it a Toy for several reasons :

 1) The output is flea power.

 2) The construction methods are very simple (KISS).

 3) My critics will dismiss it as a Toy until it is too late.

 4) The only difference between men and boys is the size of their Toys!

 5) More people will build it if I call it a Toy.

 6) The world should be a fun place, we need more Toys.

 7) I plan to sell a version of the RMOD as a Toy.

 8) Probably some more reasons I haven't realized yet.


Lighten up Butch, build a SMOT ramp and PLAY with it.  It wouldn't bite.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 20:35:20 1997
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <tammetta@terax.clubelite.com>
From: ben@clubelite.com (Ben Tammetta)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:29:58 +0000
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Subject: 1 ramp works, 2 don't
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Hello, from Atlanta GA,

I got all my parts today and spent a lot of time building and playing 
with my SMOT.   My parts match Gregs pretty closely.
12mm ball, 12mm aluminum channel
magnets: ~4x19x25mm  ( Radio Shack)
arranged 5 long and 4 wide for each rail. with a 1/8x1" (almost 
 4x24mm) wide steel backing.   And thin plywood and cardboard for the 
base.

I made 2 working SMOTS. Both work independently of each other.
1 independent SMOT is easy to get to work if you are not concerned 
with the hight you wish to achieve with the ramp.  The higher you 
raise the ramp the harder it gets to tune.

The higest I could get the 12mm Steel ball to climb was 12mm. It 
would climb to the top drop off and roll away...... (as long as there 
was not another track there)!

When I put another piece of the track, where the ball drops off,
to see if it would escape the magnetic field... it 
would most often just stop right there.  The top of the seconrd track 
just fit under the bottom of the first track. The farthest the ball 
would get on the second track was just 5mm and then bounce right 
back. And that much was very hard to achieve.

I spent many frustrating hours trying to get the 2 ramps to work but 
with no success.  Unless Greg left out somemore details about 
connecting ramps. I can't figure out how to get 2 to work as is.

Greg, What am I missing?   :)

If anyone is interested ... I can put up  pictures and AVIs  on my 
website  within a day or so.

If anyone wants to chat.... I'm online 40% of the day so you can 
WinTalk (Talk me) at ben@jumanji.clubelite.com 
OR
 ICQ me at 1326072

Thanks,
Ben



######################
# Ben Tammetta       #
# ben@clubelite.com  # 
######################

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 20:41:08 1997
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Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:41:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tixif@aol.com
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:39:34 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970526233933_-1531753109@emout10.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Fwd: Re : ICQList
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In a message dated 97-05-26 12:59:21 EDT, JNaudin509 writes:

<< To develop the list, select only the address list and
  then reply and add yours.  

  To use it in WIN95, just right click by the icon by the clock to "Open IQC"

  Shawn Stroud #1332533 (EMail=Tixif@aol.com)
  Jean-Louis Naudin #747846 (Email=JNaudin509@aol.com) >>


---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    Re : ICQList
Date:    97-05-26 12:59:21 EDT
From:    JNaudin509
To:      freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC:      Tixif

<< I'm on the ICQ List.  To develop the list, select only the address list
and
 then reply and add yours.  
 
 Shawn Stroud #1332533 (EMail=Tixif@aol.com)
 Jean-Louis Naudin #747846 (Email=JNaudin509@aol.com)
  >>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 20:43:00 1997
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:48:23 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: regarding over unity ramp
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970524133621.3eafceaa@pop.mymail.net>
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On Sat, 24 May 1997, Michael C Slivinski wrote:

> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:39:23 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Michael C Slivinski <sunbrite@mymail.net>
> Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
> To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: regarding over unity ramp
> Resent-Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 11:36:51 -0700
> Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
> 
> Hello all, 
> wouldn't the OU ramp that has been demonstrated qualify for the prize
monies
> offered by groups offering a demo of it. also I beleive even the Sceptics
> group, (not sure of the name) is offering a nice purse. Once demonstrated
> and monies claimed, of course could fund further research.
> just thoughts
> Mike Slivinski  sunbrite@mymail.net
> http://www.myhomepage.net/~sunbrite/
> 
> God helps those, that help themselves... 
> so they may help others! MCS
> 
I just hope WE all remember that Greg's release of this was that we only 
remember HIS name, and that we can take it the 'Thousands' of different 
ways that we will, as long as we remember "who & WHEN" we got it from.
----if any monie$ are to be made, they should 'formost' go to him!  maybe 
he can catch-up with Bill Gates.. :) ---- 
if everyone takes-off (Great!).. i think I could handle selling little 
$15.00 boxes to school kids (my grandkids would like it), and everyone 
should be happy.... but, Foremost(!) is his request above!
=My hat too, is off to the SMOT!=
------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------
-=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150
ekwall2@diac.com                          wk.1.800.798.1100
ekwall2@freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 20:51:00 1997
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Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:56:16 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Watson/Teamwork
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On Sat, 24 May 1997 JWGSA@aol.com wrote:
> Shawn,
> I am in San Antonio and pass through Austin now and them.  
> Jack
> > 
Heck, Im a bit up the hill in (mile-high) Denver, if you ramp 
it up here, I'll 'send' it back or we can keep building "Higher"
  you are close enough... i think this will 'ignite' though to 
being "world wide"    -hats off to SMOT!-

------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------
-=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150
ekwall2@diac.com                          wk.1.800.798.1100
ekwall2@freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 21:48:13 1997
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Resent-Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:46:26 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <9705270446.AA29550@mail1.halcyon.com>
From: "Fred Epps" <fepps@mail1.halcyon.com>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: a NEW new computer
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:45:58 -0700
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Hi Folks,

   Thanks again for your help in fixing my computer.  I tried some of the
things you suggested, the ones I understood :-) but to no avail.  I have
taken the easy way out and returned the computer, now I'm on my NEW new
computer.  This one works fine, as of 30 mins after ignition.  Sorry to
bore everyone with my travails.  I hope to have something more interesting
to talk about soon.
                                                                           
                      Fred

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 21:51:44 1997
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 06:50:21 -0700
From: Christian Korfmacher <korfmach@ens.ascom.ch>
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Organization: Ascom Business Systems AG
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Can someone shed some light on the total "energy content" of permanet
magnets?
You do work by lifting mass against gravity, dropping it at the end of
the
ramp does not bring the energy back into the magnet!? We can calculate
the 
total amount of energy for 1 lift over a ramp as W-lift = m*g*h and
accceleration work W-a = m/2 * v*v with v = speed at the end and
rotational energy as W-r = J/2 * w*w with J = 2/5 * m * r*r

If the total amount of the energy in the ball for a reasonable number of
ramp runs 
is anywhere near the total energy content of the magnet, then we should
be able to
prove the demagnetization of the magnet by doing work.

If someone has more insight in the physics of magnets, please let us
know.
I dont see why lifting a mass with a magnet should not degrade the
magnet.
Where else should the energy come from?

And for Greg, I'm fascinated with your ramp and I'm going to build one
soon.
But I want to get more knowledge about permanet magnets so I can
understand
what's happening there! 

Epitaxy wrote:
> 
> According to conventional theory, the demagnetization of the magnets can
               --------------------  is it true or just theory???

> only happen if the magnets are subjected to an opposing (read: Repelling)
> magnetic field above the intrinsic demagnetization threshold.  (That is
> aside from mechanical shock and Curie temperature.)
> 
> In SMOT the magnet arrays are in the attracting mode and the eddy currents
> in the ball do not exceed the demagnetization threshold.  The eddies are
> easily suppressed by using a glass ball filled with iron powder.  In any
> case the magnetic field created by the eddy currents will not have greater
> intensity than the field of permanent magnets that are inducing the eddies
> in the ball with their magnetic field.
> 
> If anything the presence of the ball between the two attracting magnetic
> arrays only helps to maintain the magnet's magnetization, because the ball
> form a high permeability path for the magnetic flux IN THE SAME DIRECTION
> as the polarization of the magnet's domains !
> 
> Look at the demagnetization values for various magnetic alloys.
> 
> Material  Grade  Demagnet  Curie  BH-Strength
> 
> NdFeB     g39 -  21,300    150    40
> SmCo        g26 -  10,000    300    26
> AlNiCo    g05 -     640    540     5.5
> Ceramic   g08 -   3,200    300     3.5    (BaFe2O3  or  SrFe2O3 ceramic
> alloys)
> Flexible  g01 -   1,300    100     0.6
> 
> Grade = Material quality grade (alloy type ie. ALNICO 5)
> Demagnet = Minimum Demagnetizing force in Oersteds
> Curie = Curie Temperature in Degrees Celsius
> BH-Strength = Maximum Energy Product in Mega Gauss Oersteds (MGO)
> 
> The above clearly shows that AlNiCo is THE EASIEST to demagnetize.  However
> AlNiCo has the highest Curie temperature of them all - 540degC.  The
> Neodymium (NdFeB) magnets are the strongest (ie. they have the highest
> energy product).  Flexible magnets are the weakest.
> 
> At 12:36 PM 5/26/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >BTW: The demagnetizing of the magnets might be the energy source that the
> device uses.

-- 
Christian Korfmacher Ascom Business Systems
Voice:+41 (0)32 6242716 Fax:  +41 (0)32 6243156
mailto:hitsch@solnet.ch  or mailto:korfmach@ens.ascom.ch

Don't worry about people stealing your ideas.  If your ideas are that
good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.   - Howard Aiken

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 22:15:50 1997
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From: Michael Randall <mrandall@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: 1 ramp works, 2 don't
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Ben Tammetta wrote:
>Hello, from Atlanta GA,
>
>I got all my parts today and spent a lot of time building and playing 
>with my SMOT.   My parts match Gregs pretty closely.
>12mm ball, 12mm aluminum channel
>magnets: ~4x19x25mm  ( Radio Shack)

Here is where the problem most likely is occurring that I have experienced
also. The width (19mm) of the magnets are too wide for the 12mm ball. Try a
0.625" (16mm) ball. This worked for me. Or use 10mm wide magnets as per
Greg's design. I'm trying this out next with 0.375" magnets for the 0.5" ball.  

[snip]

>I spent many frustrating hours trying to get the 2 ramps to work but 
>with no success.  Unless Greg left out somemore details about 
>connecting ramps. I can't figure out how to get 2 to work as is.
>
>Greg, What am I missing?   :)

Also, with the 19mm magnets and a 12mm drop to the next ramp, I found that
there wasn't enough clearance between the two mag. assy.  Greg also
mentioned a clearance between the mag assy will be needed for the Phase II
connecting of ramps.

>If anyone is interested ... I can put up  pictures and AVIs  on my 
>website  within a day or so.
>
>If anyone wants to chat.... I'm online 40% of the day so you can 
>WinTalk (Talk me) at ben@jumanji.clubelite.com 
>OR
> ICQ me at 1326072
>
>Thanks,
>Ben
>
>
>
>######################
># Ben Tammetta       #
># ben@clubelite.com  # 
>######################
>

Hi Ben,

I hope the suggestions helps. I couldn't find any metric magnets locally so
I'm using the equivalent English dimensioned componets. Will post my results
this week.

Best Regards,
Michael

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 22:32:33 1997
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Subject: Re: This SMOT thing works!!
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The hacksaw blade is made out of a very hard steel that is NOT very soft
magnetically (low permeability).  The hacksaw blade is not a good
substitute for a strip of a real soft steel.

BTW:  The bearing ball is also made out of a very hard alloy and its
permeability is not as high as iron or soft steel.


At 06:13 PM 5/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
 I couldn't find any small refrig magnets
>so I used 16 round 11mm x 4mm
>ceramic mags i had here, That I glued on a piece of hacksaw blade which is
>10mm wide x 1.5 or 2mm thick I managed to get the steel ball to roll up the
>ramp 8 mm higher

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 23:54:51 1997
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Message-ID: <338A7C1F.4F03@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:45:59 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Got bounched first time

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Message-ID: <338A7B3F.60D8@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:42:15 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT Magnets
References: <3389521F.1502@microtronics.com.au> <33899A63.3BF3@ix.netcom.com> <338A15F2.7A7B@microtronics.com.au> <338A5D13.771E@math.ucla.edu>
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Barry Merriman wrote:
> 
> Greg Watson wrote:
> >
> 
> > > > Here is the info on my magnet supplier :
> > > >
> > > > Product description :
> > > >
> > > >   TH1876,
> > > >   Frij Magnets-13x9x4mm,
> > > >   Pk100,
> > > >   $4.95 (Aust including 20% sales Tax)
> 
> Do you happen to know what these magnets are actually
> made of? I would imagine a wide variety of materials
> are possible, and it would be nice to nail it down for
> the sake of science. Perhaps you could call them and ask them
> for the specs on their magnets, or ask them who their
> supplier is...
> 
> --
> Barry Merriman

Hi Barry,

OK, I will try to find out all the specs.

Jean-Louis has linked with much larger magnets and Epitaxy has linked
with Neos and his glass/ferrite ball.  Others have linked as well.

I don't believe the magnet material is critical.  Size, Yes.

Have you started to build a SMOT ramp yet.  Its really very simple to
build and lots of really good fun.


Best Regards,
 Greg


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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon May 26 23:58:16 1997
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:51:59 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Subject: Smot Magnet sizes
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HI All,

Here is the modified drawing showing my magnet height is critical to
ease of linking.


Best Regargs,
 Greg

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 00:01:16 1997
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:36:01 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 1 ramp works, 2 don't
References: <3.0.32.19970526114441.00ae6bec@mail.localaccess.com> <19970527034016317.AAA48@jumanji>
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Ben Tammetta wrote:
> 
> Hello, from Atlanta GA,
> 
> I got all my parts today and spent a lot of time building and playing
> with my SMOT.   My parts match Gregs pretty closely.
> 12mm ball, 12mm aluminum channel
> magnets: ~4x19x25mm  ( Radio Shack)
> arranged 5 long and 4 wide for each rail. with a 1/8x1" (almost
>  4x24mm) wide steel backing.   And thin plywood and cardboard for the
> base.

The Magnet arrays are too long for the ramp.  The magnets arrays should
be 13-15mm longer than the ramp.

The height of the magnet arrays (including the steel backing strip) MUST
be less than 75% (a guess) of the height of the lift.  My magnets are
9mm high for a 12mm lift.

The steel backing strip MUST be approx the same height as the magnet
arrays or the mag field contours will not be correct.  Mine is 10mm.

> I made 2 working SMOTS. Both work independently of each other.
> 1 independent SMOT is easy to get to work if you are not concerned
> with the hight you wish to achieve with the ramp.  The higher you
> raise the ramp the harder it gets to tune.

This is correct.

> The higest I could get the 12mm Steel ball to climb was 12mm. It
> would climb to the top drop off and roll away...... (as long as there
> was not another track there)!
> 
> When I put another piece of the track, where the ball drops off,
> to see if it would escape the magnetic field... it
> would most often just stop right there.  The top of the seconrd track
> just fit under the bottom of the first track. The farthest the ball
> would get on the second track was just 5mm and then bounce right
> back. And that much was very hard to achieve.

Your exit fields are not correct.  Suspect your magnet array overhang is
too long.  I have found that the ramp mush be 13-15mm less than the
length of the magnet arrays.

There is a critical point of exit where the magnet wall at the end will
just gently push the ball back onto the exit rails, yet allow the ball
to settle on the front porch of the next ramp.

The length of the front proch is also adjustable by sliding the initial
flat frpnt porch  under the exit of the proceeding ramp.  Also critical
is the position of the lower edges of the magnet arrays.  Too far away
and the ball will not be sucked into the entry field.  In my units, I
find that the arrays of the second ramp are just slightly under the
higher ends of the first arrays.

Anyway, you are going too fast.

Build as the spec, I promise the ramps will link.  Many others have been
able to get this working.

> I spent many frustrating hours trying to get the 2 ramps to work but
> with no success.  Unless Greg left out somemore details about
> connecting ramps. I can't figure out how to get 2 to work as is.

I have spent many 100's of hours to get you to here.  Don't give up too
easily.

Check Jean-Louis's web page again.  Look at the modified drawing of the
ramps linking and you will SEE why the specs are as they are.

It does work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> Greg, What am I missing?   :)
> 
> If anyone is interested ... I can put up  pictures and AVIs  on my
> website  within a day or so.
> 
> If anyone wants to chat.... I'm online 40% of the day so you can
> WinTalk (Talk me) at ben@jumanji.clubelite.com
> OR
>  ICQ me at 1326072
> 
> Thanks,
> Ben

Hi Ben,

Hope the above helps.

Look at the modified 4th drawing on the web site.  You may need to hit
reload as the old image may be in your cache.


Best of luck,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 01:58:25 1997
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:17:29 +0400
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: otecnor@emirates.net.ae (otecnor)
Subject: Greg's idea(s)
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Hi All,

I built a crude version of the ramp (15 mns work...),I used what could
"fall" to my hands: bearing ball dia 7.2 mm, two times 4 Alnico magnets dia
10 mm x lgth 10 mm tight together with tape + transformer Fe plate sticked
behind each set and a V folded piece of plastic cardboard (instead of a U
chanel) I fitted with tape the V chanel on to an (empty) visiting card
plastic boxe and gave it an angle > to the dia of the ball (exit higher
than entry by1.2 to 1.5 dia of the ball), usable track length approx 37 mm,
I found out that by keeping the magnets axis above the V ramp near the
entry point but slightly below near the exit point insured better ball
exit.(I'have not yet fitted the 2 set of magnets and just played with the
thing holding one set of mag in each hand...)

I am pretty convinced that the loop can be closed,and this I will at least
try in the coming days with  more seriously built ramps...
I read quite a lot on this list about "where is the energy coming from?"...
frankly speaking,for the layman that I am and will remain,I do not see any
mystery in That, Greg has just found a way of "stealing" a bit of the
ball's Inertia by ingeniously using earth gravitation,There is to me and as
Jean-Louis wrote few hours ago a similarity  of procedure with T.Bearden
concepts of getting "free" Energy from alternatively closing/opening a
gate.

I am thinking of building a rotary device using that process, only and as
it is not really practicable to have a rotor longitudinaly (shaft axis
wise) going up and down, as well as a motor that could only work in a
certain positions relative to the earth field, it would require to shield
the field(s) incoming from the magnets at the places they are closer to the
rotor piece thus allowing the rotor piece(s) travelling in the "ramps"
fields to keep enough energy/Inertia to enter the next ramp...
It may/Will require magnets of different sizes on the inner set of
ramps,smaller'ones (closer to shaft axis) and larger' ones on the outside
(farther from the shaft)
The rotor piece would travel between the inner and outer set of
magnets,shield would be placed/spaced at "critical" points where inner and
outer "races of magnets" would come the closest...
I do not know if my description of the device is clear enough,pure fantaisy
nor if it could help, but I had it in Brain for the last hours and had to
spell it out.

Best Wishes to All

FRANCK ROUSSEL
http://www.infoemirates.com/otecnor
otecnor@emirates.net.ae
Tel: -- 971 4 341 335
Fax: -- 971 4 341 271
Po box 4613 Dubai
United Arab Emirates
Time: GMT + 4


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 06:24:59 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id GAA29111; Tue, 27 May 1997 06:24:03 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 06:24:03 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <338ADDB6.1A0B@worldonline.nl>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:12:22 +0200
From: Ronald de Mol <catware@worldonline.nl>
Organization: World Online
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CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Hompage update
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Hi All.

Have just updated my home page.

Changed: Where to find the magnets...
Add    : 8 Quickfield sims. (ball falling from top ramp)
(maybe you must use the 'reload key' if you see nothing differend.)

See it at  HTTP:\\www.worldonline.nl\~catware

Thank you Greg for the sims!

Also i have finaly found a company here that has the right magnets.
(13x10x4.9mm). Pitty that it takes 7-10 day for delivery.
I have ordered a whole bunch of them.

--
Ronald.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 07:09:45 1997
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Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:09:03 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <338AEA60.7DD0@worldonline.nl>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:06:25 +0200
From: Ronald de Mol <catware@worldonline.nl>
Organization: World Online
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Ronald de Mol wrote:
> 
> Hi All.
> 
> Have just updated my home page.
> 
> <snip>
> See it at  HTTP:\\www.worldonline.nl\~catware
> 
err... :-X

See it at  HTTP://www.worldonline.nl/~catware

--
Ronald.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 07:19:18 1997
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Message-ID: <338AEC81.2B3@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:45:29 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
CC: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT query
References: <970527103115_100433.1541_BHG50-1@CompuServe.COM>
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Chris Tinsley wrote:
> 
> One thing I'm not quite clear on.  I had the impression from earlier
> comments that the SMOT (in its completed, 4-ramp form) is intended to
> keep on running, with the ball continually cycling around the ramps and
> through its starting point.

The 4 ramp version (Phase 2) is not a closed loop system.  It is, like
Phase 1, a teaching system designed to build a piece at a time to a
closed loop system.

We must go through Phase 2 to 4.

> Is that the idea, is that the claim?

Phase 1 is a simple ramp.  Nothing more.  But very interesting still,
NO?

Phase 2 is 4 linked Phase 1 ramps, showing no slowing of the ball as it
travels through the linked ramps.  That in itself should cause a deal of
interest, and discontent!

> Since people seem to be having considerable success with replicating the
> basic single-ramp system, then I'm getting more interested.  

As you should.  I don't claim anything I can't duplicate.  Rev up the
brain cells!  This is real!

> As far as I
> can see, if the ball starts from rest, finishes up at its starting
> height, and yet rolls clear of the magnets, then there is a real puzzle
> here to be solved - even before the multi-ramp system is revealed.

The ball will not roll clear in this configuration.  It is NOT designed
to do so as this is s class 2 ramp (reference my previous corros).  It
is designed to link.  That is the key to the next phase (Phase 2).

> Is that not correct?

Not quite.  Linking is the key, not rolling clear!

Think about the physics of the second and third linked ramp and what it
means for the ball to travel through those ramps and NOT slow down!

> Chris

Hi Chris,

Its starting to get interesting, Yes?


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 07:21:05 1997
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From: Tixif@aol.com
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:18:39 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970527101837_-1229950643@emout08.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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In a message dated 97-05-27 09:28:15 EDT, you write:

<< Also i have finaly found a company here that has the right magnets.
 (13x10x4.9mm). Pitty that it takes 7-10 day for delivery.
 I have ordered a whole bunch of them. >>

Ron
Can you tell us the name and contact for the company you located.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 07:44:03 1997
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Message-ID: <338AF1DB.78D1@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:08:19 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Scott Little wrote:
> 
> At 06:31 AM 5/27/97 EDT, Chris wrote:
> 
> >As far as I
> >can see, if the ball starts from rest, finishes up at its starting
> >height, and yet rolls clear of the magnets, then there is a real puzzle
> >here to be solved

The SMOT ramp is a class 2 ramp (drops to entry level but doesn't roll
clear)

> Unless, as was the case with the TOMI device, you have to do work on the
> ball to place it in the starting position.

No Way, You have to restrain it from moving into the ramp.

> This whole thing HAS gotten interesting.  A good while ago I led a campaign
> to cease discussion of the theory of o-u magnetic devices on Vortex.  In
> essence, I told Greg to go away and come back when he had constructed a
> device that appeared to be o-u.  He claims to have done so...by closing the
> loop!!!  Now I am eager to check him out.  We, too, are constructing a SMOT
> ramp.

Good on you!

> Scott Little

Hi Scott,

Its NOT like Tomi, its really real.

Really glad to have you on board.  Ask away, any questions, I really
want this to be proved outside my house.  But you have to BUILD the
devices.  Thats really important.  Maybe ACC will write 4001, or a mod
of 2001 based on SMOT and SHARP energy systems. 

This is the best news I have had since I closed the loop the first time
and dropped my patent attorney jaw to the floor.

SMOT is a Toy, but as others have stated, it is real and will change the
world IF WE REALLY WANT IT TO DO SO!

Thats what I, and all the rest of you really want.  Yes?


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 08:11:29 1997
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Message-ID: <338B22ED.1A56@tiac.net>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:07:41 -0700
From: Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
Reply-To: bshannon@tiac.net
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Subject: Re: computer problems
References: <9705262340.AA30344@mail1.halcyon.com>
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Fred Epps wrote:
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
>    Well, I guess I spoke too soon. Freezeup started again when I tried to
> load scanner software.  I think it must be a Win software problem because
> ScanDisk freezes up at the same point every time-- would think if it was
> hardware it wouldn't happen at the same place.
>    Scandisk come on every time i run windows, and I have to shut it off to
> run programs.
> Obviously at any moment the horror will strike again :-()
>    Whatever it is, it's over my head.  I appreciate everyone's help but I'm
> not going to try to fix it, I'm going to take it back...maybe I can get
> them to give me an even fancier computer that I understand even less...
>                                           Fred

Fred,

I'm very sorry to hear that your machine is causing problems.  Did I
read that it's a NEC computer?

I am a principle engineer for NEC Computer Systems Division, however I
work in
the portable products section.  I do know most of the desktop people
however.

Can I be of any assistance with your problems?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 08:42:29 1997
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Message-ID: <338AF692.5A58@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:28:26 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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CC: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT query
References: <m0wWNRD-0004vyC@mirage.skypoint.com>
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John Logajan wrote:
> 
> Chris Tinsley wrote:
> > As far as I
> > can see, if the ball starts from rest, finishes up at its starting
> > height, and yet rolls clear of the magnets, then there is a real puzzle
> > here to be solved - even before the multi-ramp system is revealed.
> > Is that not correct?
> 
> I believe so.  I think the alleged miracle occurs at the exit, so the
> use of multiple ramps is just to get the thing in a circle.  I figure
> that if you could avoid the rolling resistance, you could get the thing
> to work in a single ramp.  Have the ball exit, drop down a J shaped
> channel that returns it back to the starting point.
> 
> --
>  - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -

Hi John,

Long ramps are a bitch.  To obtain the necessary mag differential across
the ball on a long ramp and get release is not EASY.

Been there, done that.

Stay with the program, then go off at a tangent.

Have you got your single SMOT ramp working yet?  If not why not?


Best Regards,
 Greg


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 08:42:29 1997
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Message-ID: <338AF9B3.34F5@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:41:47 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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John Logajan wrote:
> 
> Scott Little wrote:
> > Unless, as was the case with the TOMI device, you have to do work on the
> > ball to place it in the starting position.
> 
> Actually, I believe the starting point is already within the magnetic
> field (down the magnetic "hill") so you haven't added energy to the
> system by placing the ball on the starting point.  Given a flat plane
> leading to the starting point, a ball should be pulled into that
> position from some distance around.  Which means that the magnets
> could actually do work on the ball.  At the entrance end, the analysis
> is essentially no different than any ferrous object moving closer
> to the poles of a magnet.  All the magic allegedly happens when the
> ball escapes at the exit.
> 
> > We, too, are constructing a SMOT ramp.
> 
> Since Greg's claims are unlikely to be measurement error (either it
> loops the track or it doesn't) remember that in addition to:
> 
> 1.) Greg being right
> 2.) He could be hoaxing us
> 3.) Or he could be delusional
> 
> Though it doesn't look like it'll take too long to figure out
> which of the three is the case.
> 
> --
>  - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -

Hi John,

Why wonden which of the three is true?

BUILD a ramp!  

Then link then in Phase 2.

Find out yourself.

Its really simple and cheap!

Do it.  NOW!

Stop talking, BUILD a ramp.  Watch it work.  Pour water on brain to stop
meltdown, then think outside the square!  But don't ever think of being
a critic without BUILDING a SMOT ramp.  That's not giving me or you a
fair go!


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 09:01:00 1997
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Message-ID: <338B048F.3F30@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:28:07 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Subject: Re: Don't call it a toy!
References: <970527114832_843363601@emout07.mail.aol.com>
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HLafonte@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Greg,
>     What about the material I mentioned? It is used by Mr. Muller on his
> device. Are you familiar with the material?
> Butch

Hi Butch,

No I am not using his ferrite material.  To me the only NEW element of
his material is the ability of it to be moulded.  ALL the rest is OLD
hat, nothing new despite the web site claims.  But I don't think many
injection moulders would want such an abrassive material injected
through their system.  Soft plastic beads cause enough problems.

By the way, my balls are made of chrome plated steel.  Well the ones I
run on the tracks anyway!


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 09:11:34 1997
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Message-ID: <338B0722.3836@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:39:06 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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CC: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT query
References: <199705271539.IAA21413@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
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Michael Randall wrote:
> 
> Hi Scott,
> 
> Glad to hear your building a SMOT unit. It works and is simple to build by
> following Greg's design.
> 
> The metric size magnets will be have to be special ordered overseas. I'm
> trying locally available english size magnets (0.375"w x 0.25"t x 0.75"l)
> with 0.5" steel ball and all other components in english dimensions. It
> should work just as well.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Michael

Hi Michael,

Should be close enough.  Just remember, the ramp should be 13-15mm
shorter than the magnet arrays and try to stay around 100-110mm length
for the arrays.

Believe it or not, longer arrays are harder to adjust.  Seems the flux
differential for a set width of magnet is fairly constant (top to
bottom), but the differential across the ball is related to is ratio to
the array length and as the pull up the ramp is related to the square of
the flux differential across the ball, shorter ramps work better than
longer ramps.  IE, less magnets result in a higher lift.  Seems strange
unless you remember I predicted that any OU system would work in reverse
to common reasoning and logic.

You might wish to publish the source and cost of the magnets you have
found.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 09:16:27 1997
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Message-ID: <338B081D.2FCE@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:13:17 -0400
From: Dave DeLeo <ddeleo@ix.netcom.com>
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Tixif@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 97-05-27 09:28:15 EDT, you write:
> 
> << Also i have finaly found a company here that has the right magnets.
>  (13x10x4.9mm). Pitty that it takes 7-10 day for delivery.
>  I have ordered a whole bunch of them. >>
> 
> Ron
> Can you tell us the name and contact for the company you located.


List of magnet supplyers:


Company Info: JayCar Electronics
              PO Box 185,
              Concord NSW, 2137,
              Australia
              Phone 61 2 2743 6144
              Fax   61 2 2743 2066
Prod. Descr.: TH1876,
              Frij Magnets-13x9x4mm,
              Pk100,
              $4.95 (Aust including 20% sales tax)
Cards accept: BankCard, Visa, MasterCard, American Express


Company Info: Weco Magneten B.V.
              Industrieweg 9A
              3286 BW Klaaswaal
              Netherland
              Phone 0186 573 080
              Fax   ???
Prod. Descr.: Ceramic anisotropic magnet,
              Size 13x10x4,9mm
              FL 340.- For 1000 pices (Incl 17.5 BTW.)
Cards accept: ???

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 09:26:08 1997
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Message-ID: <338B0A10.12AE@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:51:36 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
CC: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT QField Sims
References: <199705271539.IAA21343@sweden.it.earthlink.net>
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Michael Randall wrote:
> 
> Hi Greg,
> 
> The QField Sims look very interesting at Jean-Louis Naudin's web site:
> 
> http://members.aol.com/overunity2/html/smot1qfl.htm
> 
> I found the flux density curve w/ball unusual. It looks like a locally
> induced "hole" in the mag. assy. with the ball always "falling inward" into
> the hole. Interesting! Any conventional theory for explaination of this?
> 
> Best Regards,
> Michael

Hi Michael,

I have confirmed that the Qfield sims are correct.

The "Hole" is caused by the return fields of the side magnets (they
"Flow" in opposite directions).  The "Hole" size and mag field contours
are related to magnet geometry and spacing.  The SMOT design looks
simple, but as time goes on, we will see that a LOT of time and energy
has gone into the design.

Remember than null fields are an easy exit enemy as the quick mag field
contour drop off is like hitting a brick wall to the ball.  The linked
field xy plot shows the linked case will result in a easier exit than if
the linked ramp was not present, but the up the ramp performance will
suffer and the magnet spacing (top and bottom) will have to be closed up
to compensate for the effect of the linked ramp.

Soon, you will understand why I used balsa and straight pins to build my
mag array supports and adjustment system from.

Been there, done that.


Best regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 09:30:48 1997
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Message-ID: <01BC6AC3.861632E0@ppp180.enterprise.net>
From: Mike Butcher <michael@enterprise.net>
To: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: SMOT query and Toad Essence
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:28:42 +0100
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Dear Greg,

Thank you for your continuing support and encouragement and although I am 
eager to build the ramp I am having immense difficulty on getting hold of 
any quantity of magnets here in the UK. I am even having problems with the 
12 mil rail. The wood - no problem  I don't want you to think I'm a 
complete failure.

I have located fridge magnets but they seem to incorporate Bugs 
Bunny/Deputy Dog moldings and I can see myself having to explain to people 
how an unknown energy source is pushing the ball round the secret being the 
correct positioning of rows of miscellaneous fictional cartoon characters.

What I am getting round to is I expect I will eventually locate the 
components but could you possibly give a list of materials needed to 
complete the whole project as I don't relish the idea of thinking that I've 
 got it all sorted out only to find out that to close the loop I have to 
start searching for "Essence of Toad" or  "Virgin's Toe Nail Clippings".

Thanks again,

Mike Butcher


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 09:33:10 1997
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Message-ID: <338B0C18.DDC@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:30:16 -0400
From: Dave DeLeo <ddeleo@ix.netcom.com>
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Has anyone had any luck finding the 13x10x4 magnets in the US?  I am
still searching.......  will let you know if I find anything....

Dave DeLeo
ddeleo@ix.netcom.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 09:51:47 1997
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From: Scott Little <little@eden.com>
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At 12:08 AM 5/28/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote:

>No Way, You have to restrain it from moving into the ramp.

I see that.  Logajan is correct in that the "trick" will be to get the ball
away from the far end of the ramp.

>SMOT is a Toy, but as others have stated, it is real and will change the
>world IF WE REALLY WANT IT TO DO SO!

I want it to do so.

Scott Little 
EarthTech International, 4030 Braker Lane West,  Austin TX 78759
512-342-2185 (voice)       512-346-3017 (FAX) 
little@eden.com            http://www.eden.com/~little

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 09:52:00 1997
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Message-ID: <338AF76C.2E27@worldonline.nl>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:02:04 +0200
From: Ronald de Mol <catware@worldonline.nl>
Organization: World Online
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Tixif@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Ron
> Can you tell us the name and contact for the company you located.

Yes i can :-)

It is: Weco Magneten B.V.
       Industrieweg 9A
       3286 BW Klaaswaal
       Netherland
       Phone: 0186 573 080
       Fax: ???
       The 13x10x4.9 goes only per 1000 pices ! ( for FL 340.- )

--
Ronald.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 09:58:04 1997
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Message-ID: <338B1203.265A@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 02:25:31 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
CC: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT query and Toad Essence
References: <01BC6AC3.861632E0@ppp180.enterprise.net>
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Mike Butcher wrote:
> 
> Dear Greg,
> 
> Thank you for your continuing support and encouragement and although I am
> eager to build the ramp I am having immense difficulty on getting hold of
> any quantity of magnets here in the UK. I am even having problems with the
> 12 mil rail. The wood - no problem  I don't want you to think I'm a
> complete failure.
> 
> I have located fridge magnets but they seem to incorporate Bugs
> Bunny/Deputy Dog moldings and I can see myself having to explain to people
> how an unknown energy source is pushing the ball round the secret being the
> correct positioning of rows of miscellaneous fictional cartoon characters.
> 
> What I am getting round to is I expect I will eventually locate the
> components but could you possibly give a list of materials needed to
> complete the whole project as I don't relish the idea of thinking that I've
>  got it all sorted out only to find out that to close the loop I have to
> start searching for "Essence of Toad" or  "Virgin's Toe Nail Clippings".
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Mike Butcher

Hi Mike,


Ok, Here it a complete list for the SMOT Phase 1 device :

 1) 64 x 13x10x4mm Ceramic Magnets (fridge type),

 2)  1 x 100x267x3mm Balsa Sheet,

 3)  1 x 110x12x12mm Alum "U" channel, (length to be 13-15mm
          shorter than magnet arrays),

 4)  1 x 12mm dia Steel ball bearing (chrome plated), (More to 
          play drop the ball)

 5)  2 x 3x10x104mm Steel Backing Plates,

 5)  1 x Balsa Knife,

 6)  1 x Hacksaw,

 7)  1 x Sheet Sandpaper (Medium grit),

 8)  1 x 3ml Tube Superglue,

 9)  4 x Straight Pins,

10)  1 x Ruler (To mark out mag array adjustment pin holes),

11)  1 x Small Flat Metal File,

That should about do it.

Sorry I didn't think to do this before.  (SMOT web sites, please include
this table)


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 10:07:38 1997
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Message-ID: <338B1447.670A@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 02:35:11 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
CC: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT query
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Scott Little wrote:
> 
> At 12:08 AM 5/28/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote:
> 
> >No Way, You have to restrain it from moving into the ramp.
> 
> I see that.  Logajan is correct in that the "trick" will be to get the ball
> away from the far end of the ramp.

No Problem.  Look at the multi exit sims I have posted,  The entry field
of the linked ramp pulls the ball down and in!  Jean-Louis has a soon to
be released avi of the ramp link working.
 
> >SMOT is a Toy, but as others have stated, it is real and will change the
> >world IF WE REALLY WANT IT TO DO SO!
> 
> I want it to do so.

So do I!

> Scott Little

Hi Scott,

Then BUILD and PUBLISH.

There is not a lot more to say.

Good luck, ask away if you run into problems.


Best Regards,
 Greg

PS:  I have a feeling we will be seeing each other soon.  Another chance
to talk of string, sealing wax and other things.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 10:13:59 1997
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Message-ID: <338B15CE.4311@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 02:41:42 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT query and Toad Essence
References: <01BC6A85.9612F270@ristra.ucdavis.edu>
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Dan Quickert wrote:
> 
> Greg, I think Mike was looking for a list that would cover all the way through Closing the Loop.
> 
> Dan

Hi Dan,

Not so quick.  One step at a time.

There is much to learn first.

There are no free lunches here.

All will be revealed (well really most of it is out already, in bits and
pieces), but first you must BUILD and learn how to adjust SMOT ramps.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 10:59:03 1997
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Message-ID: <01BC6A8C.A161FB10@ristra.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: SMOT query and Toad Essence
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:56:28 -0700
Encoding: 28 TEXT
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 Greg Watson wrote:

 >Dan Quickert wrote:
 >> 
 >> Greg, I think Mike was looking for a list that would cover all the way through Closing the Loop.
 >> 
 >> Dan
 >
 >Hi Dan,
 >Not so quick.  One step at a time.
 >
 >There is much to learn first.
 >
 >There are no free lunches here.
 >
 >All will be revealed (well really most of it is out already, in bits and
 >pieces), but first you must BUILD and learn how to adjust SMOT ramps.
 >
 >
 >Best Regards,
 > Greg

Hey Greg, I wasn't looking for any secrets, or even a parts list. Just pointing out that that seemed to be what Mike was asking for.
BTW, you said
 >Not so quick.  One step at a time.
But I don't need to be quick. I'm always Quicker(t) than most :-).

Dan

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 11:14:57 1997
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Message-Id: <338B23B0.3229@centuryinter.net>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:10:56 -0500
From: andrew <gyro@centuryinter.net>
Reply-To: gyro@centuryinter.net
Organization: the truth is out there 
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References: <970526125850_-1398170008@emout10.mail.aol.com>
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JNaudin509@aol.com wrote:
> 
> << I'm on the ICQ List.  To develop the list, select only the address list
> and
>  then reply and add yours.
 
  Shawn Stroud #1332533 (EMail=Tixif@aol.com)
  Jean-Louis Naudin #747846 (Email=JNaudin509@aol.com)
  Andrew R. #1279987 (Email=Gyro@centuryinter.net)

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 11:34:01 1997
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Message-ID: <338B279D.1258@worldonline.nl>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:27:41 +0200
From: Ronald de Mol <catware@worldonline.nl>
Organization: World Online
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To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT query and Toad Essence
References: <01BC6AC3.861632E0@ppp180.enterprise.net> <338B1203.265A@microtronics.com.au>
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Greg Watson wrote:
> 
> Hi Mike,
> 
> Ok, Here it a complete list for the SMOT Phase 1 device :
> 
> < table snipped >
> 
> Sorry I didn't think to do this before.  (SMOT web sites, please include
> this table)
> 
> Best Regards,
>  Greg

Hi Greg... Table included. at HTTP://www.worldonline.nl/~catware

Some minor changes made to it.

--
Ronald.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 12:34:56 1997
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From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705271930.PAA24748@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: Re: SMOT v1.0 Result & Design Notes
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:30:47 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970526112235.00ae5728@mail.localaccess.com> from "Epitaxy" at May 26, 97 11:22:36 am
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Make a loop and it would run forever in space!  For that matter, would
this work?

Spin a steal ball on a string with the ball going through the center of a
ring magnet.  The magnet will pull it, then push it.  In space, this ball
should speed up untill it brakes the light barrer (and distroyes the
universe).  Please give me input on this!






 -- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 12:35:49 1997
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From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705271933.PAA24902@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: Re: Don't call it a toy!
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:33:24 -0400 (EDT)
In-Reply-To: <970526184307_2086795648@emout20.mail.aol.com> from "HLafonte@aol.com" at May 26, 97 06:43:09 pm
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Where is the energy really coming from?

> 
> Greg,
>    Calling this device a toy is like calling a volcano a lava lamp! If this
> turns out to be want has been claimed, (ou), then children (and adults) will
> be playing with the energy that makes the universe "tick". Please don't
> demean the discovery by calling it a toy!
> Butch LaFonte
> 
> 


-- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 12:39:33 1997
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From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705271931.PAA24822@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: HOW TO GO FASTER THEN LIGHT
To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com (science)
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Make a loop and it would run forever in space!  For that matter, would
this work?

Spin a steal ball on a string with the ball going through the center of a
ring magnet.  The magnet will pull it, then push it.  In space, this ball
should speed up until it brakes the light barrer (and distroys the
universe).  Please give me input on this!

Andrew
-- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 13:09:00 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 05:45:55 -1100
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From: Ken Smith <ksmith@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: SMOT - rationale
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Hi All,
        I have noticed a good deal of anticipation on these pages to get
ahead of the game with  Greg Watson's SMOT.  It is not really my place to
say what I am about to - but I will anyway.  Greg W is too polite to say it
himself.

"Get off his back about phase 2 / 3 and build the phase 1 ramp first." 

Anyone who has built and PROPERLY played with / adjusted / understood (as
far as possible) the workings of the basic ramp will have plenty to occupy
themselves with whilst Greg fines off the details of phase 2 before
publication.  There has been a whole bunch of work put into all this and
only a small portion is obvious.  Indeed the simplicity of the whole thing
belies its' potential.  Perhaps we would be happier if it involved 100s of
miles of wire and a machine shop before a device could be built - then there
would be an excuse to sit on our collective puds and theorise, criticise and
whinge generally.  But no, not this time folks.  It's in the fan for the
armchair warriors.  A slack handful of magnets, some soft wood, a few pins
and a breadknife will do it.  Oh don't forget a bit of insulation tape and
some superglue or a hot glue gun.  Can't find those - get off my back. Greg
has carefully put together an specific set of parts and specs (drawings even
- thanks to JLN) and this is right down the centerline - easy as.  But
nothing in my setup conforms to these specs other than principle.  A little
lateral thought and a dash of application goes a long way here.  

I have been playing with magnets for many years - and really got nowhere,
except to put so many discarded magnets onto my workshop roof that the area
around my house is a local magnetic anomoly.  It wasn't until Greg came up
with the critical insights on the nature and shape of the exit field that I
made any real progress.

Now I am galloping away and ideas and working activities are all around the
workbench.  However there is still a very long way to go.  GW realises that
his answer is probably only one (or two) of many.  Successful exploitation
of this effect will require many more insights and ideas.  Where Greg is
being clever / cunning even, is to force us all to understand the basics
before giving us the farm keys.  Oh it is frustrating, since what we all
want is a slack handful of steel balls galloping around the rails driving
the dog to distraction and amazing the neighbours - and we all will -
eventually.  But if we are all forced to play with the basics, then we
should mostly understand the principles of play when the game starts in
ernest.  This way we will all be little parts in a much bigger and connected
research group - albeit an informal one.  Then with all that building and
playing going on, serendipity or some lateral thinking by one or many of us
will produce further ideas and insights.  This way we may be able to get 100
years of development into a few.

This SMOT is an important chapter in the history of science and
communications, both for the novelty and potential of the device and for the
use of an open and InterNet connected group doing the driving.  This
breakthrough - since it is surely that - is not being hidden by paranoid
androids seeking a quick profit from an under / un developed idea.  This is
open forum - warts and all.  Greg has been very open since the getgo on
this. Sure he is nominally keeping his stage 2 baby under wraps pending
patent approval - but who wouldn't.  Anyway, from my playings and makings it
is patently (sic) obvious that most, if not all, of the concepts are there
for the asking in previous posts. 

BUT I SAY AGAIN - YOU CAN'T SOLVE THIS ONE IN AN ARMCHAIR. 

Thinking this little connundrum through will not cut it.  There is too much
here that is totally counter intuitive and you must experience and play with
this 'hands on'.

There I have written a gutfull and I apologise if I am out of order.  All
the whiners - consider yourself bollocked and all the doers should now be
empowered to do - and do some more.  Anything less than that and the fault
lies with my mastery of the English language.

Have a nice day...





             
           
                      Ken Smith (ksmith@ihug.co.nz)
                   http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~ksmith
          


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 13:26:19 1997
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:29:50 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
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To: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: There are NO stupid questions (?)
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On Tue, 27 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote:

> > And for the BUILD phase...
> > I have earlyer already 2 models made, one with round alnico-5 magnets
> > and one with 50x19x5 magnets (Both a succes for a SINGLE model).
> > The problem is that I really need the 13x10x5 magnets and I can't find
> > them anywhere yet.
> > Here comes my problem: In ALL the models I have made and seen, the
> > exit point is just before the start of the last magnet.
Hopefully there are no stupid questions, but even my wife is excited about 
building one of these smot1 'toys'  QUESTION: are these "bar magnets" like 
a tootsie roll shape OR Flat and Stacked "Disk (ceramic style)" stack..
 Question arises as I SEE "BarS" stack nsnsnsn but NO "North/ South" as in 
jnaudin pics.  My wife says you mean "Flat Round" coin shaped magnets.
  Of course she's a Chemist(!) so what does she know.  Oddly we can both 
make your mm x mm x mm demensions fit our agrument! :)
Thanks ( one of us will take the other out to dinner :) we both win!
se

------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------
-=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150
ekwall2@diac.com                          wk.1.800.798.1100
ekwall2@freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 13:32:53 1997
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:17:12 -0400
From: Dave DeLeo <ddeleo@ix.netcom.com>
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Mike Butcher wrote:
> any quantity of magnets here in the UK. I am even having problems with the
> 12 mil rail. The wood - no problem  I don't want you to think I'm a
> complete failure.

For the U channel I used a piece of the frame that is used for screen
windows and doors.  I got a long piece probably for the vertical part of
a screen door for about $2 US.  Then I just cut the top part of it off
with my band saw and was left with aluminum U channel.  I then had to
file the sharp edges down (wouldn't want to cut yourself, even in the
name of science) and then polish them with a the graphite from a pencil
as Greg has suggested. Hope this helps....

Dave DeLeo
ddeleo@ix.netcom.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 14:05:53 1997
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From: geoff@compcafe.co.uk (Geoff Greaves)
Reply-To: geoff@compcafe.co.uk
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Re: SMOT query and Toad Essence
Date: 27 May 1997 21:08:34 GMT
Message-Id: <38207486.124517541@compcafe.co.uk>
Organization: via Computer Cafes FC BBS Wales, UK
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Mike Butcher wrote:
<snip>
>I am having immense difficulty on getting hold of 
>any quantity of magnets here in the UK. I am even having problems with the 
>12 mil rail. 
<snip>

Strange but true, UK magnet suppliers congregate in Swindon. 
Try Magnet Sales & Service Ltd on 01793 488686
L25 min order and my filing system (piles of stuff covering all non-vertical
areas) means I can't find their catalogue but I'm sure they'll have the exact
size.
RS Components sell 12mm, (well, half-inch anyway) aluminium U section. 
Give me a shout if I can help with sourcing by purchasing, sharing etc;
e-mail or 01597 825253 day 825448 evenings.
Any more Smotters in the UK listening?

I haven't found any Bugs Bunny or Deputy Dawg fridge magnets and suspect you
are just trying to maintain the morale of US Smotters. Let's face it, Wallace
& Grommet have got that market pretty well stitched-up at the moment.
I think I have some Essence of Toad left over from a previous anti-gravity
experiment, (damn thing never flew, just hopped along) but I'm afraid that
Virgin's Toe Nail Clippings have joined Rocking Horse Droppings in rarity
value around these parts.

Cheers, geoff

----------------------------------------
>From Geoff Greaves: geoff@compcafe.co.uk
----------------------------------------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 14:10:09 1997
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Here is a list of all the freenrg-l members that are currently on ICQ:
(let me know if I missed anyone)

Dave DeLeo 1318578
Ben Tammetta 1326072
Andrew R. 1279987
Shawn Stroud 1332533
Paula Opelc 1201957
Greg Watson 748439
Jean-Louis Naudin 747846
Robert Hawkins 639814

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 14:49:25 1997
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:43:12 -0600 (MDT)
From: "John R. Tooker" <jrtooker@freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT v1.0 Result & Design Notes
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well, we happen to live on a component of such a system, or at least, a
system that exibits many of these characteristics. the solar system. Many
people who call OU devices "impossible" seem to have no problem with the
fact that many planets in this marvelous system actuallyemit much more
energy than they have a right to, by conventional system. I would suggest
that you peruse Richard Hoagland's work on "tetrahedral geometry", as well
as Carl Munck's work. They seem to give a good scientific explanation as
to how Brian DePalma's  ou device works.
John


On Tue, 27 May 1997, Science wig. sig. wrote:

> 
> Make a loop and it would run forever in space!  For that matter, would
> this work?
> 
> Spin a steal ball on a string with the ball going through the center of a
> ring magnet.  The magnet will pull it, then push it.  In space, this ball
> should speed up untill it brakes the light barrer (and distroyes the
> universe).  Please give me input on this!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  -- 
> +-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
> |   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
> |   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
> |                                                                      |
> |   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
> |   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
> |   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
> |                                                                      |
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
> 
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 16:00:48 1997
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Message-ID: <338B67A1.6E17@sn.no>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:00:49 +0200
From: Frank Roed <frroed@sn.no>
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Organization: SN Internett
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JNaudin509@aol.com wrote:
> 
> << I'm on the ICQ List.  To develop the list, select only the address list
> and
>  then reply and add yours.
 
  Shawn Stroud		#1332533 	(EMail=Tixif@aol.com)
  Jean-Louis Naudin 	#747846 	(Email=JNaudin509@aol.com)
  Andrew R. 		#1279987 	(Email=Gyro@centuryinter.net)
  Dave DeLeo 		#1318578	(Email=ddeleo@ix.netcom.com)
  Ben Tammetta 		#1326072	(Email=tammetta@mindspring.com)
  Paula Opelc 		#1201957
  Greg Watson 		#748439		(Email=gwatson@microtronics.com.au)
  Robert Hawkins 	#639814
  Frank Roed 		#1213706 	(Email=frroed@sn.no)

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 16:29:24 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 02:28:13 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Mika Letonsaari <mletonsa@cc.hut.fi>
Reply-To: Mika Letonsaari <mletonsa@cc.hut.fi>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT - rationale
In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19970527223339.34e75e5e@ihug.co.nz>
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On Wed, 28 May 1997, Ken Smith wrote:

> Hi All,
>         I have noticed a good deal of anticipation on these pages to get
> ahead of the game with  Greg Watson's SMOT.  It is not really my place to
> say what I am about to - but I will anyway.  Greg W is too polite to say it
> himself.
> 
> "Get off his back about phase 2 / 3 and build the phase 1 ramp first." 

There is a good reason for being anxious, because a single ramp shows
nothing new or extraordinary. It is a nice toy and way to learn things but
nothing more. Or have I missed something?

But linking ramps and making the ball climb up all the way would be
against what we have learnt from schoolbooks. I mean, the magnetic field
can easily increase along one ramp and thus give a lift to an iron ball.
But I can't see how multiple identical linked ramps could form an
increasing magnetic field. That sounds interesting and it would be nice
to know how this is done. 

That's why I'm not personally too excited yet. But if the phase 2 comes
some day... Then we will see if there is a reason for that.

            --------------------------------------------
       Mika Letonsaari, mletonsa@cc.hut.fi, tel. (09) 468 2583
  Student of Engineering Physics at Helsinki University of Technology
"All science is either physics or stamp collecting." - Ernest Rutherford
            --------------------------------------------




From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 17:08:52 1997
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From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705280007.UAA26662@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: HOW TO GET **VERY NEER** THE SPEED OF LIGHT ( Try 2)
To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com (science)
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Ok, I have found the problem with my first proposal, here is a better
way:

The problem brought to my attention was that the magnet might pull in
both directions, stoping the ball.  We can get around that by useing two
electromagnets aligned backwards.  When the ball (two magnets) approch the
ring magnet, the electromagnets are set to pull, then when it is in the
center of the ring they switch to push.  It will use a little power and
keep getting faster and faster.  This should only work in space (or, what
about useing superconductors?)

Please tell me what you think.

Andrew



-- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 17:10:47 1997
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:08:57 -0700
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: "Mary C." <maryc@inc-g.com>
Subject: Re: This SMOT thing works!!
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Hi All,

Forgive the stupid question, but my brain is fogged from lack of sleep. I
have most of the stuff collected to play with the SMOT, but what are some
examples of common sources for soft-steel strips suitable to back the magnets.

Mary C.

At 10:32 PM 5/26/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>The hacksaw blade is made out of a very hard steel that is NOT very soft
>magnetically (low permeability).  The hacksaw blade is not a good
>substitute for a strip of a real soft steel.
>
>BTW:  The bearing ball is also made out of a very hard alloy and its
>permeability is not as high as iron or soft steel.
>
>
>At 06:13 PM 5/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
> I couldn't find any small refrig magnets
>>so I used 16 round 11mm x 4mm
>>ceramic mags i had here, That I glued on a piece of hacksaw blade which is
>>10mm wide x 1.5 or 2mm thick I managed to get the steel ball to roll up the
>>ramp 8 mm higher
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 17:40:40 1997
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:36:49 -0400
From: paula opelc <paula@southconn.com>
Organization: sisters of silicone, inc
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Help Finding magnets US/Canada/Mexico
References: <199705280007.UAA26662@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
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Have been searching for the past two days for companies the sell
magnets for the "toy", at reasonable prices (not radio shack), if 
anyone comes across a company in any of the above three places please
pass on the info....especially ones the sell in metric sizes.....thanks
for the help...steve


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 21:22:43 1997
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Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:15:21 -0700
Message-ID: <01BC6AE2.BEC66F00@chiltepine.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: where to get steel
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:12:38 -0700
Encoding: 22 TEXT, 41 UUENCODE
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Mary C. wrote:

 >Hi All,
 >
 >Forgive the stupid question, but my brain is fogged from lack of sleep. I
 >have most of the stuff collected to play with the SMOT, but what are some
 >examples of common sources for soft-steel strips suitable to back the 
magnets.
 >
 >Mary C.

Mary,

Most hardware stores around here carry a variety of steel bar and rod 
stock. Much of it is harder steel, some zinc plated, but it will work - 
that's what I'm using. Also welding shops always have a variety of metal on 
hand and most are quite happy to sell you a bit, and even cut it to size 
for you. Welding shops, of all sizes, are virtually everywhere.

Dan Quickert
dequickert@ucdavis.edu
916-756-0575

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 21:49:11 1997
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Resent-Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:47:47 -0700
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tammetta@terax.clubelite.com>
From: ben@clubelite.com (Ben Tammetta)
To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:43:46 +0000
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Subject: Re: 1 ramp works, 2 don't,  IT WORKS NOW!
Reply-to: tammetta@mindspring.com
Priority: normal
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Hello,

SMOT day 2

Just 2 minutes ago on my desk, I got 2 ramps linked.  Thanks to a few
thought provoking  suggestions that were sent.

The only thing I changed was the size of the ball: From  about 14mm to
19mm. The EXACT hight of the magnets that make up the magnetic array.

> Ben Tammetta wrote:
> > 
> > Hello, from Atlanta GA,
> > I got all my parts today and spent a lot of time building and
> > playing with my SMOT.   My parts match Gregs pretty closely. 12mm
> > ball, 12mm aluminum channel magnets: ~4x19x25mm  ( Radio Shack)
> > arranged 5 long and 4 wide for each rail. with a 1/8x1" (almost
> >  4x24mm) wide steel backing.   And thin plywood and cardboard for
> >  the
> > base.

> The height of the magnet arrays (including the steel backing strip)
> MUST be less than 75% (a guess) of the height of the lift.  My
> magnets are 9mm high for a 12mm lift.

Thanks Greg, this was also a key. Since my magnets are about 19mm
high.  I set my lift to 25mm.   25*75%=18.75   Very Close. An easier
way to think of it is (1.333)(height)=(lift)

> The steel backing strip MUST be approx the same height as the magnet
> arrays or the mag field contours will not be correct.  Mine is 10mm.

Mine extent about 5mm above the magnets... might work better if I used
a closer match.

> > The higest I could get the 12mm Steel ball to climb was 12mm. It
> > would climb to the top drop off and roll away...... (as long as
> > there was not another track there)!
> > 
> > When I put another piece of the track, where the ball drops off,
> > to see if it would escape the magnetic field... it would most
> > often just stop right there.  The top of the seconrd track just
> > fit under the bottom of the first track. The farthest the ball
> > would get on the second track was just 5mm and then bounce right
> > back. And that much was very hard to achieve.

> Build as the spec, I promise the ramps will link.  Many others have
> been able to get this working.
Yes, Good suggestion or at least to scale

Once I got the right size ball I tuned 2 ramps to the correct specs,
carefully pushed them together... and within a few minutes it was
working.

The funny part :)
When I realized I needed bigger balls :)    I called all over looking
for them with no luck. The answer ended up in my hand :)   Inside the
mouse I was using :)  I took out the tracking ball, scalped it with a
razor blade and picked it apart, polished the rubber bits off with a
brown paper bag... and wala.  19mm shinny steel ball.

With the larger ball I was able to raise my lift 13mm higher, enough
to link the ramps.

In conclusion.  For those gathering parts and having to scale the
system,  I would have to recommend the following:

1. That the ball diameter match the height of the magnetic array 
 magnets.

2. Set your lift to   
    (1.33)x(height of magnets)  = LIFT
 Example:  (1.33)x(19mm)~=25.33

3 USA Radio Shack magnet users, Use 35 magnets in each half of the
array. four wide and five long. this will make your array 5 inches
long (225mm)  (I hope we can shorten this) .... and then skin your
mouse :)

Greg,  can you come up with some more guidelines for  scaling the rest
of the SMOT so people having a hard time finding exact parts can try
scaling instead.

 I'll try to fix up my SMOT some and post some AVI's 
and pictures soon.

The loop is getting closer.

Ben
ben@clubelite.com





######################
# Ben Tammetta       #
# ben@clubelite.com  # 
######################

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 21:59:53 1997
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <tammetta@terax.clubelite.com>
From: ben@clubelite.com (Ben Tammetta)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:55:11 +0000
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Subject: 2 ramp SMOT works...webpage
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>From my webpage...

Ben's SMOT Page
Simple Magnetic Overunity Toy 

     I'll put more details here soon, but, I thought many of you would
     like for me to quickly make some pictures and AVI's available to
     you. They are not the best quality and black and white, but it's
     something. 

     Bottom Line:
     Two level SMOT ramps are linked together and working. 

     The steel ball starts at the bottom of ramp 1 and continues past
     the end of ramp 2. The Steel ball starts by rolling up a ramp and
     end up 25mm higher, drops 25mm and does it again. (With nothing
     but Permanet magnets to move it.) 

     KEY POINTS:

          The ramps are on a faily level surface (my desk) 
          both ramp entrance channels bottoms are flush against the
          desk Both ramp exit channel bottoms are 25mm above the
          surface of the desk

     PARTS:

          19mm ball from a PC Mouse, 12mm aluminum channel 
          magnets: ~4x19x25mm ( Radio Shack) 
          arranged 5 long and 4 wide for each rail. with a 1/8x1"
          (almost 4x24x235mm) wide steel backing. And thin plywood and
          cardboard for the base. 

     The images and AVI's are here so you can see how big they are.  

http:/oscar.clubelite.com:8888/smot
if that doesn't work
http://205.152.8.132:8888/smot
http:/205.152.8.132:8888/smot/images

Greg what's next?
Can I make a curved one now :)

Ben
ben@clubelite.com




######################
# Ben Tammetta       #
# ben@clubelite.com  # 
######################

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 22:07:02 1997
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From: Reed Huish <reed@zenergy.com>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Fwd: Third party testing
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:00:36 -0700
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BC6AE9.EA4EFAA0
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Well, I staying at home (in New Orleans) "minding the fort" so-to-speak, =
so
I don't honestly know what will transpire tomorrow (Sunday) in Denver.  =
I
know that Joe is planning a lecture and workshop to demonstrate the
technology.  Whether or not ANE has the ability to test and what
arrangements they can/will make with Joe -- that will be for them to =
decide
(if they wish)....I do know that a News Conference is planned by ANE on
Monday in Denver.  Positive announcements would be desirable.

Evan,

I attended both Newman's presentation and workshop later that day (along =
with 2 other people from my company).  We were very disappointed that =
Joe did not demonstrate his machine.  Actually, during his workshop one =
of our partners went out and bought a scale, along with a multimeter and =
calculator to properly test Newman's machine, but he wouldn't allow it =
to do so.

I would definitely add us in the "pro overunity" camp and we would love =
to see some positive results from Newman. =20

- Reed Huish
  Zenergy Corp
  http://zenergy.com

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 22:07:19 1997
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From: Reed Huish <reed@zenergy.com>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Fwd: Third party testing
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:02:29 -0700
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Well, I staying at home (in New Orleans) "minding the fort" so-to-speak, =
so
I don't honestly know what will transpire tomorrow (Sunday) in Denver.  =
I
know that Joe is planning a lecture and workshop to demonstrate the
technology.  Whether or not ANE has the ability to test and what
arrangements they can/will make with Joe -- that will be for them to =
decide
(if they wish)....I do know that a News Conference is planned by ANE on
Monday in Denver.  Positive announcements would be desirable.

Evan,

I attended both Newman's presentation and workshop later that day (along =
with 2 other people from my company).  We were very disappointed that =
Joe did not demonstrate his machine.  Actually, during his workshop one =
of our partners went out and bought a scale, along with a multimeter and =
calculator to properly test Newman's machine, but he wouldn't allow it =
to do so.

I would definitely add us in the "pro overunity" camp and we would love =
to see some positive results from Newman. =20

- Reed Huish
  Zenergy Corp
  http://zenergy.com

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 22:20:30 1997
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>  From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>, on 5/27/97 2:00 PM:
>  Make a loop and it would run forever in space!  For that matter, would
>  this work?
>  
>  Spin a steal ball on a string with the ball going through the center of a
>  ring magnet.  The magnet will pull it, then push it.  In space, this ball
>  should speed up until it brakes the light barrer (and distroys the
>  universe).  Please give me input on this!
>  
>  Andrew

Possibly, but it has been conclusively proven that stuffing ten Blue Chip
Stamps in a parking meter will freeze time forever.

JD
>  -- 
>  +-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
>  |   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
>  |   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
>  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
>  |                                                                      |
>  |   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
>  |   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
>  |   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
>  |                                                                      |
>  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
>  
>  
>  

--BeyondBoundary_1_Tue_May_27_23:39:59_1997__29
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 23:38:44 1997
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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:34:40 -0700 (PDT)
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Michael Randall <mrandall@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: 2 ramp SMOT works...webpage
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Hi Ben,

Nice website and video of your 2 SMOT ramps in action! That was quick work!
I see you used a larger steel ball verses smaller width magnets, a longer
ramp with higher exit drop and it still worked! At this rate, your Phase IV
close-the-loop track will be the largest of the group! Keep up the good work!

Best Regards
Michael Randall
 
BTW, what type of straight pins did you use to hold the mag assy in place. 

At 12:55 PM 5/28/97 +0000, Ben Tammetta wrote:
>>From my webpage...
>
>Ben's SMOT Page
>Simple Magnetic Overunity Toy 
>
>     I'll put more details here soon, but, I thought many of you would
>     like for me to quickly make some pictures and AVI's available to
>     you. They are not the best quality and black and white, but it's
>     something. 
>
>     Bottom Line:
>     Two level SMOT ramps are linked together and working. 
>
>     The steel ball starts at the bottom of ramp 1 and continues past
>     the end of ramp 2. The Steel ball starts by rolling up a ramp and
>     end up 25mm higher, drops 25mm and does it again. (With nothing
>     but Permanet magnets to move it.) 
>
>     KEY POINTS:
>
>          The ramps are on a faily level surface (my desk) 
>          both ramp entrance channels bottoms are flush against the
>          desk Both ramp exit channel bottoms are 25mm above the
>          surface of the desk
>
>     PARTS:
>
>          19mm ball from a PC Mouse, 12mm aluminum channel 
>          magnets: ~4x19x25mm ( Radio Shack) 
>          arranged 5 long and 4 wide for each rail. with a 1/8x1"
>          (almost 4x24x235mm) wide steel backing. And thin plywood and
>          cardboard for the base. 
>
>     The images and AVI's are here so you can see how big they are.  
>
>http:/oscar.clubelite.com:8888/smot
>if that doesn't work
>http://205.152.8.132:8888/smot
>http:/205.152.8.132:8888/smot/images
>
>Greg what's next?
>Can I make a curved one now :)
>
>Ben
>ben@clubelite.com
>
>
>
>
>######################
># Ben Tammetta       #
># ben@clubelite.com  # 
>######################
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 23:43:33 1997
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Mika Letonsaari wrote:
>
>There is a good reason for being anxious, because a single ramp shows
>nothing new or extraordinary. It is a nice toy and way to learn things but
>nothing more. Or have I missed something?
>
>But linking ramps and making the ball climb up all the way would be
>against what we have learnt from schoolbooks. I mean, the magnetic field
>can easily increase along one ramp and thus give a lift to an iron ball.
>But I can't see how multiple identical linked ramps could form an
>increasing magnetic field. That sounds interesting and it would be nice
>to know how this is done. 
>
>That's why I'm not personally too excited yet. But if the phase 2 comes
>some day... Then we will see if there is a reason for that.
>


Mika,

I don't think you quite understand the claim. The entrance of the
linked ramps are all at the same elevation, they do not go successively
higher. This may sound less impressive but if you put a hundred ramps
together then the little ball will get pulled out of your fingers and
travel 20 meters with no power! ( Of course the forth coming curved
ramps will be more to the point. )

PS the "schoolbooks" say this is impossible.

                                    Scott Becker
                                    skot@compumedia.com


/********************************************************/
/* I don't think that energy is conserved, but it       */
/* doesn't matter if useful over-unity operation works! */
/********************************************************/
From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 23:38:44 1997
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From: Michael Randall <mrandall@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: 2 ramp SMOT works...webpage
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Hi Ben,

Nice website and video of your 2 SMOT ramps in action! That was quick work!
I see you used a larger steel ball verses smaller width magnets, a longer
ramp with higher exit drop and it still worked! At this rate, your Phase IV
close-the-loop track will be the largest of the group! Keep up the good work!

Best Regards
Michael Randall
 
BTW, what type of straight pins did you use to hold the mag assy in place. 

At 12:55 PM 5/28/97 +0000, Ben Tammetta wrote:
>>From my webpage...
>
>Ben's SMOT Page
>Simple Magnetic Overunity Toy 
>
>     I'll put more details here soon, but, I thought many of you would
>     like for me to quickly make some pictures and AVI's available to
>     you. They are not the best quality and black and white, but it's
>     something. 
>
>     Bottom Line:
>     Two level SMOT ramps are linked together and working. 
>
>     The steel ball starts at the bottom of ramp 1 and continues past
>     the end of ramp 2. The Steel ball starts by rolling up a ramp and
>     end up 25mm higher, drops 25mm and does it again. (With nothing
>     but Permanet magnets to move it.) 
>
>     KEY POINTS:
>
>          The ramps are on a faily level surface (my desk) 
>          both ramp entrance channels bottoms are flush against the
>          desk Both ramp exit channel bottoms are 25mm above the
>          surface of the desk
>
>     PARTS:
>
>          19mm ball from a PC Mouse, 12mm aluminum channel 
>          magnets: ~4x19x25mm ( Radio Shack) 
>          arranged 5 long and 4 wide for each rail. with a 1/8x1"
>          (almost 4x24x235mm) wide steel backing. And thin plywood and
>          cardboard for the base. 
>
>     The images and AVI's are here so you can see how big they are.  
>
>http:/oscar.clubelite.com:8888/smot
>if that doesn't work
>http://205.152.8.132:8888/smot
>http:/205.152.8.132:8888/smot/images
>
>Greg what's next?
>Can I make a curved one now :)
>
>Ben
>ben@clubelite.com
>
>
>
>
>######################
># Ben Tammetta       #
># ben@clubelite.com  # 
>######################
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue May 27 23:43:33 1997
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From: skot@compumedia.com (Scott Becker)
Subject: Re: SMOT - rationale
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Mika Letonsaari wrote:
>
>There is a good reason for being anxious, because a single ramp shows
>nothing new or extraordinary. It is a nice toy and way to learn things but
>nothing more. Or have I missed something?
>
>But linking ramps and making the ball climb up all the way would be
>against what we have learnt from schoolbooks. I mean, the magnetic field
>can easily increase along one ramp and thus give a lift to an iron ball.
>But I can't see how multiple identical linked ramps could form an
>increasing magnetic field. That sounds interesting and it would be nice
>to know how this is done. 
>
>That's why I'm not personally too excited yet. But if the phase 2 comes
>some day... Then we will see if there is a reason for that.
>


Mika,

I don't think you quite understand the claim. The entrance of the
linked ramps are all at the same elevation, they do not go successively
higher. This may sound less impressive but if you put a hundred ramps
together then the little ball will get pulled out of your fingers and
travel 20 meters with no power! ( Of course the forth coming curved
ramps will be more to the point. )

PS the "schoolbooks" say this is impossible.

                                    Scott Becker
                                    skot@compumedia.com


/********************************************************/
/* I don't think that energy is conserved, but it       */
/* doesn't matter if useful over-unity operation works! */
/********************************************************/

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 00:01:59 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:01:53 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Mika Letonsaari <mletonsa@cc.hut.fi>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT - rationale
In-Reply-To: <199705280641.XAA04110@ganymede.compumedia.com>
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On Tue, 27 May 1997, Scott Becker wrote:

> Mika,
> 
> I don't think you quite understand the claim. The entrance of the
> linked ramps are all at the same elevation, they do not go successively
> higher. This may sound less impressive but if you put a hundred ramps
> together then the little ball will get pulled out of your fingers and
> travel 20 meters with no power! ( Of course the forth coming curved
> ramps will be more to the point. )

Ok. Sorry. But now it sounds far more realistic and I'm building one 
too...

            --------------------------------------------
       Mika Letonsaari, mletonsa@cc.hut.fi, tel. (09) 468 2583
  Student of Engineering Physics at Helsinki University of Technology
"All science is either physics or stamp collecting." - Ernest Rutherford
            --------------------------------------------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 01:31:51 1997
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Subject: SMOT Phase 1, 2 & 3
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For the record:

I had success going all the way to phase #3 (Please don't ask me to reveal
the details of #2 and #3, that would upset Greg's plan)


I am using NdFeB grade-39 magnets, glass V channel and glass ball filled
with iron powder all mounted on a plexiglass base.


In phase #1 the SMOT ramp works every time and provides over 2inches of
lift on a 1" (25mm) ball

In Phase #2 the ramps (4pcs) link reliably and allow the ball to traverse
all of them without slowing

In Phase #3 a new construction of the ramp is used, but it still behaves
like the ramp from phase #1 (ie. reliable lift & exit).  The tuning
experience gained in #1 is vital in adjusting the new ramp.  I am only
guessing that Greg will call this Phase #3

In Phase #4 the new ramps (4pcs) are joined and the loop is supposed to be
closed.  I was not successful at this step (probably engineering problems),
I am getting partial success though.  Note:  I am not following Greg's
directions at this point.



The idea to link 4 ramps from Phase #2 at 90 degree angle does not work.  I
tried it, Greg tried it and we came to a conclusion that the ball has to
move away from the ramp in the 3rd dimension (up/down) not sideways but
parallel to the ramp's length.  In order to link the 4 ramps into a loop
you will have to wait for the secret in Phase #3 & #4.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 05:37:16 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:18:51 +0930
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Ben Tammetta wrote:
> 
> Greg what's next?
> Can I make a curved one now :)
> 
> Ben

Hi Ben,

Great work.  I have downloaded all your images.

I would suggest you link 2 more ramps.  The middle two then have to work
with mag fields on each end.

When you get 4 linked, try the party trick and see how many ball you can
get in transit at one time.  I could get 8 to 10 balls going at once. 
It really looks great.

Then try lifting each succeding ramp by a few mm until you can get the
final lift twice the first lift.

When you get there, I will show you how to get a roll away!


Best Regards and congrats on the results,
 Greg


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 05:39:11 1997
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> To: Vortex
> 
> John Logajan, who has taken to signing his messages twice -- John Logajan, who
> has taken to signing his messages twice, says:
> 
>      And speaking of ramps in a series -- again there is the potential for
>      illusion, since the ramps are all adjusted by "feel", one might
>      unintentionally get the ball to move through all four ramps by making
>      each ramp magnetic field stronger than the previous one.

Once adjusted for linked operation, the individual ramps can be swapped
around.  The field at the top of the last ramp is the same as that at
the top of the first.  There is no creeping field increase here.

> Good point!
> 
> Greg:
> 
> Is there any reason why four ramps cannot be arranged head to tail, in a loop?
> Does the ball object to turning 90 degrees after it falls? Would it jump out
> of the second ramp, and if so, couldn't you prevent this with some kind of cup
> to catch it?

The ball must stay on the "Neutral line" between the magnet arrays. 
Some slight angular linking is possible, but I have found that the best
I could get is around 7-8 deg.

> For that matter, you might arrange three ramps in a triangle, instead of four
> in a square.

Wish it were that easy.

> If you, or anyone else trying this experiment, can close the loop with three
> or four ramps please do so as soon as possible. This is the acid test.

The loop will close.

> If the ball does not want to take a sharp turn between ramps, I suppose you
> will need five or six to make a circle. 

Still much too sharp.

> I do not think that we can be so sure
> about Logajan's earlier statement that a "J" shaped return could make the ball
> go back to the beginning with only one ramp. It seems to me the magnets above
> might prevent it from rolling back. A series of ramps seems like a fairer
> test.
> 
> The descriptions, schematics, photographs and parts lists have been most
> helpful. This already takes the prize for the most open, understated, and
> apparently sane o-u magnetic motor project in history. It is also one of the
> best cooperative efforts I have seen, reminiscent of the early days in
> microcomputers. It is a shame CF is so hard to do. However, speaking of
> history, I believe I have seen schematics for similar magnet-ramp-and-hole
> gadgets in articles about perpetual motion machines. I recall one in the
> Scientific American. In other words, people have tried similar approaches many
> times, with no success. But you never know. Perhaps they never tried this
> particular design. A slight change can make a world of difference in
> technology. 99.999% of the time a slight change has a deleterious effect.
> Years ago this was demonstrated at Intel when the workers ran frozen pizzas
> through the chip fabrication ovens during slack hours. No kidding! Their
> clean-room standards were tightened up since then, but several orders of
> magnitude, I bet.

As far as I know, my SMOT ramp design and linking system is unique.

The design looks simple, but its not.  There has been much work done on
controlling the mag field under the ramp and the exit characteristics. 
Very small changes will stop the devices operation.  But once adjusted,
the operation is very soild!

> - Jed

Hi Jed,

Hang in there.  Four Linked ramps with 8-10 balls rolling up and down is
really an eye opener.


Best Regards,
 Greg


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 05:39:12 1997
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Steve Ekwall wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 27 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote:
> 
> > > And for the BUILD phase...
> > > I have earlyer already 2 models made, one with round alnico-5 magnets
> > > and one with 50x19x5 magnets (Both a succes for a SINGLE model).
> > > The problem is that I really need the 13x10x5 magnets and I can't find
> > > them anywhere yet.
> > > Here comes my problem: In ALL the models I have made and seen, the
> > > exit point is just before the start of the last magnet.
> Hopefully there are no stupid questions, but even my wife is excited about
> building one of these smot1 'toys'  QUESTION: are these "bar magnets" like
> a tootsie roll shape OR Flat and Stacked "Disk (ceramic style)" stack..
>  Question arises as I SEE "BarS" stack nsnsnsn but NO "North/ South" as in
> jnaudin pics.  My wife says you mean "Flat Round" coin shaped magnets.
>   Of course she's a Chemist(!) so what does she know.  Oddly we can both
> make your mm x mm x mm demensions fit our agrument! :)
> Thanks ( one of us will take the other out to dinner :) we both win!
> se
> 
> ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------
> -=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150

Hi Steve,

The magnets are rectangular blocks.  Mine are 4x10x13mm, magnetised
through the 4mm thickness.  One array has the N pole facing into the
ramp and the other array has the S pole facing into the ramp.


Hope this helps,
 Greg


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 05:39:10 1997
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From: M2Milly@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:38:04 -0400 (EDT)
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In a message dated 97-05-28:

<<  File:  ATTRIBS.BND (2668 bytes)
 DL Time (28800 bps): < 1 minute
  
...... it has been conclusively proven that stuffing ten Blue Chip
 Stamps in a parking meter will freeze time forever.
 
JD>>

Beyond Packed Attributes?????

OK where is the rest of your story???

You may enjoy some of the research below
FOR MAGNETS SEE #6 

  ETHERIAL ELECTROGRAVITICS
   by Bill Hamilton

1.  MODERN ETHER DRIFT EXPERIMENT

A. Brillet and J.L. Hall conducted a modern ether drift experiment in
1979.  Brillet and Hall put a laser on a rotating platform and split the
beam.  One part of the beam went into a Fabry-Perot interferometer, the
other was directed via mirrors off the platform to be compared with a
reference beam from a stationary laser.  The frequency of the rotating
laser was compared with that of the reference laser; the difference was
Fourier analyzed. Any anisotropy of the speed of light would show up as
a frequency shift which varied dependent on the direction of the
interferometer.  If the old pre-Lorentz ether theory were true (static
ether), they would have found a frequency shift dependent on sidereal
direction of the interferometer and found no such effect.

They also found a frequency shift of 17 Hz at twice the table rotation
rate, which they could not explain on direction of interferometer with
respect to the lab.  It is this effect which is predicted by an
entrained ether theory.

***An entrained ether theory favors a dynamic ether, an ether that can be
entrained in motion by a rotating object, such as earth, embedded within
the dynamic ether.***

2.  ETHER EXPLANATIONS

If a velocity-dependent medium such as the ether could be established by
experiment, then it could open the door to alternative explanations to
SR and GR regarding physical phenomena.  If this ether is quantized,
then we could explore the theoretical nature of a quantum ether.  Is
gravity a result of some state of the quantum ether?

***Does the quantum ether explain inertia?***  

What does an electric ormagnetic field do to the state of the quantum ether?
 Are material particles some wave-state of the quantum ether?  Can we unify
physical
principles by considering a quantum ether?

3.  EXPERIMENTING WITH LIGHT

A test of light speed could be made if some object holding a measuring
device could accelerate to some sizable fraction of light speed, say
.5c, and test the speed of an electromagnetic emission from this object
through space to a reflection point and back to the object from the
reference frame of the moving object.

Also, Bryan Wallace delivered a paper on the 1961 measurements of the
distance of Venus using radar.  Wallace claims that the inconsistencies
in the measurements are not supportive of SR, but 
***support a C+v velocity for the radar signal.***  
Perhaps a review of this data, and further refined experiments could
determine if the data is consistent with SR or Galilean addition of
velocities.

4.  SPACE DRIVES

Why is it important to determine the nature of the ether of space and
time?  One obvious answer is to determine whether we could find new ways
to travel through space or time. 

****The most common solution offered in the past has been to use hyperspatial
dimensions to cross enormous distances that separate stellar systems.****

While it is true that space could harbor more than three dimensions, and time
could be enfolded from greater than one dimension, the energy dimensions of
ether have yet to be explored.

NASA is now interested in breakthrough physics, on new solutions to space
travel, on dispensing with rocket propellants 
****and finding new sources of energy, and on theoretical means for breaking
the light barrier.****  

****If the light barrier can be broken by some sort of inertial drive, a
drive that changes the resistance of the ether, reducing that resistance
in a forward direction, then the velocity of an object may, indeed,
exceed the measured velocity of light.*****

In actual fact, if the properties of weight and mass can be nullified by
application of
electromagnetic forces to the ether in the vicinity of our test object,
the object may be propelled without inertial lag and "g" forces to reach
incredible speeds with the slightest expenditure of energy.

5.  EXPERIMENTS IN ELECTROGRAVITICS

According to the Air Force Manual from Wright-Patterson AFB on
Electrogravitics we have this description on the Thomas Townsend Brown
discovery. 

Electrogravitics might be described as a synthesis of electrostatic
energy used for propulsion - either vertical propulsion or horizontal or
both - and gravitics, or dynamic counterbary, in which energy is also
used to set up a local gravitational force independent of the earth's.

Electrostatic energy for propulsion has been predicted as a possible
means of propulsion in space when the thrust from a neutron motor or ion
motor would be sufficient in a dragless environment to produce
astronomical velocities. But the ion motor is not strictly a part of the
science of electrogravitics, since barycentric control in an
electrogravitics system is envisaged for a vehicle operating within the
earth's environment and it is not seen initially for space application.
Probably large scale space operations would have to await the full
development of electrogravitics to enable large pieces of equipment to
be moved out of the region of the earth's strongest gravity effects. So,
though electrostatic motors were thought of in 1925, electrogravitics
had its birth after the War, when Townsend Brown sought to improve on
the various proposals that then existed for electrostatic motors
sufficiently to produce some visible manifestation of sustained motion.
Whereas earlier electrostatic tests were essentially pure research,
Brown's rigs were aimed from the outset at producing a flying article.
As a private venture he produced evidence of motion using condensers in
a couple of saucers suspended by arms rotating round a central tower
with input running down the arms. The massive-k situation was summarized
subsequently in a report, Project Winterhaven, in 1952. Using the data
some conclusions were arrived at that might be expected from ten or more
years of intensive development - similar to that, for instance, applied
to the turbine engine. Using a number of assumptions as to the nature of
gravity, the report postulated a saucer as the basis of a possible
interceptor with Mach 3 capability. Creation of a local gravitational
system would confer upon the fighter the sharp-edged changes of
direction typical of motion in space.

The essence of electrogravitics thrust is the use of a very strong
positive charge on one side of the vehicle and a negative on the other.
The core of the motor is a condenser and the ability of the condenser to
hold its charge (the k-number) is the yardstick of performance. With air
as 1, current dielectrical materials can yield 6 and use of barium
aluminate can raise this considerably, barium titanium oxide (a baked
ceramic) can offer 6,000 and there is promise of 30,000, which would be
sufficient for supersonic speed.

The original Brown rig produced 30 fps on a voltage of around 50,000 and
a small amount of current in the milliamp range. There was no detailed
explanation of gravity in Project Winterhaven, but it was assumed that
particle dualism in the subatomic structure of gravity would coincide in
its effect with the issuing stream of electrons from the electrostatic
energy source to produce counterbary. The Brown work probably remains a
realistic approach to the practical realization of electrostatic
propulsion and sustentation. Whatever may be discovered by the Gravity
Research Foundation of New Boston a complete understanding and synthetic
reproduction of gravity is not essential for limited success. The
electrogravitics saucer can perform the function of a classic lifting
surface - it produces a pushing effect on the under surface and a
suction effect on the upper, but, unlike the airfoil, it does not
require a flow of air to produce the effect.

6.  AN EXPERIMENT IN MAGNETOGRAVITICS

The limitation in potential difference achieved by the Brown apparatus
has led some of us involved in gravity research to consider the use of
magnets and magnetic fields.

The basis of this concept in magnetogravitics is the MHD generator.  If
a hot gas is seeded with certain elements and the gas is totally ionized
this will produce a plasma in which all nucleons and electrons are
disassociated in a hydrodynamic mixture.  This charged or stratified
charged mixture is confined to a volume of space by bottling it inside a
magnetic field.  Varying magnetic fields are also used to deflect
cathode rays in television tubes or particle acclerators.  By confining
the charges in a magnetic bottle very high potentials can develop
without dielectric breakdown.  

Much is known concerning magnetic flux rotation through conductors or
conduction currents confined by magnetic fields, but little is known
about interacting magnetic fields.

An experiment now being assembled tests the hypothesis that a homopolar
generator, a generator consisting of a coupled conducting disk and
magnet that co-rotates with the armature.  Usually such an apparatus is
tapped for high amperage currents.  In my proposal the homopolar
generator rotates within a time-varying magnetic field to increase the
potential difference across the radius of the disk, maintaining this
potential by magnetic confinement of rim charge.  A conducting disk of
Alnico with a slightly raised center would be an ideal armature as it
should act as a one-piece homopolar generator.  

In previous measurements of spinning homopolar disks, the center becomes
strongly positive and the rim of the disk, negative.  This could be
considered an open Brown capacitor that should exhibit an electrogravity
effect.  It is also proposed that measurements should be taken similar
to the measurements taken in the Finnish superconductor weight-reduction
experiments.

7.  FUTURE DIRECTIONS

In effect, electrogravitic or magnetogravitic propulsion if successfully
developed would lead to a novel form of asymmetric thrust that could be
adapted to ground, air, and space transport systems.  Such devices could
be energized using fuel cells or possibly so-called cold fusion cells
and revolutionize our entire systems of transportation.  Beyond this we
must find means to extend our exploration of space.	

Bill Hamilton
Executive Director
SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL

"It is easier to ridicule than investigate, but not as profitable." 

MjMichael
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/futrtools/index.htm">FutrTools</A>
Crosspollination seeds the universe of the mind.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 05:42:23 1997
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From: "SAM GORDON" <lance@bluegrass.net>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: This SMOT thing works!!
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:42:12 -0400
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----------
>> At 10:32 PM 5/26/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >
> >The hacksaw blade is made out of a very hard steel that is NOT very soft
> >magnetically (low permeability).  The hacksaw blade is not a good
> >substitute for a strip of a real soft steel.
> >
> >BTW:  The bearing ball is also made out of a very hard alloy and its
> >permeability is not as high as iron or soft steel.
> >
> >
> >At 06:13 PM 5/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
> > I couldn't find any small refrig magnets
> >>so I used 16 round 11mm x 4mm
> >>ceramic mags i had here, That I glued on a piece of hacksaw blade which
is
> >>10mm wide x 1.5 or 2mm thick I managed to get the steel ball to roll up
the
> >>ramp 8 mm higher
> >
> >
> >
>      I didn't realize this post would cause problems, I used the above
only for a temporary trial, all sources where closed on memmorial day. I'm
now gathering the items to make a proper smot. But you know, the thing
still worked with the wrong stuff. But it may not work for the multi ramp
phase so I plan on making the ramp as
per Greg's design. 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 05:51:33 1997
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <tammetta@terax.clubelite.com>
From: ben@clubelite.com (Ben Tammetta)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:46:27 +0000
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Subject: Re: 2 ramp SMOT works...webpage
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Hi Michael,

> Michael Randall
>  
> BTW, what type of straight pins did you use to hold the mag assy in place. 

Push pins,/ Thumb tacts, used for putting infomation on cork boards.  
They go through a layer of cardboard and into plywood.

> >
> >     The images and AVI's are here so you can see how big they are.  
> >
> >http:/oscar.clubelite.com:8888/smot
 



######################
# Ben Tammetta       #
# ben@clubelite.com  # 
######################

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 08:41:12 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:37:17 -0400
From: ce3cwf = felix meyer <ce3cwf@cmet.net>
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How to close the loop
=====================

With interest I am watching the SMOT project of Greg Watson.
If you want to close the loop you have to modify the output
side of the Mag Field.
Bend it roughly 90 deg to both sides and you will be able to close the
loop. Dont work linear, think 3 dimensional.
I think Greg will explain in Phase 4 how to adjust the magnets.
It works great !

Felix
-- 

mailto:ce3cwf@cmet.net

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 10:23:41 1997
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In a message dated 5/23/97 9:16:05 AM, Greg Watson asked for clarification of
what I wrote:

Hal: << Magnetic field energy is decreased as object moves into and quenches
part of the field distribution; >>

Greg: <<Quenches part of the field?  I don't understand this Hal.

If the object is a soft ferromagnetic material, the field energy
increases due to the additive action of the soft aligning domains in the
ferrite.>>

Actually, it is the opposite.  When the domains align, the little, say, south
poles are attracted to the external applied, say, north pole, and the little
north poles are repelled.  Therefore, the alignment of domains within the
material serve to cancel out (weaken) locally the magnetic field that would
have otherwise been there.  The overall result is that the field energy has
been reduced, this energy now going into moving the ball; i.e., field energy
is transformed into kinetic energy.

Hal   


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 11:01:00 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:54:03 +0200
From: Ronald de Mol <catware@worldonline.nl>
Organization: World Online
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Ben Tammetta wrote:
> 
> Ben's SMOT Page
> Simple Magnetic Overunity Toy
> 
>      I'll put more details here soon, but, I thought many of you would
>      like for me to quickly make some pictures and AVI's available to
>      you. They are not the best quality and black and white, but it's
>      something.
>      <snip>
>      The images and AVI's are here so you can see how big they are.
> 
> http://oscar.clubelite.com:8888/smot
> if that doesn't work
> http://205.152.8.132:8888/smot
> http:/205.152.8.132:8888/smot/images
> <snip>
> 
> Ben
> ben@clubelite.com
> 
> ######################
> # Ben Tammetta       #
> # ben@clubelite.com  #
> ######################

Hi Ben,

Great, Great, Great work !!!

I have made a 'Link-to' page on my homepage where all the 'SMOT' type
hompages are. ( i hope there are soon comming more. )

Can you immagine that i'm desperate waiting for my magnets...  :-(

P.S.: Why are youre AVI's in Hi quality and your photo's not so ?
(Could you not 'photo video' the shots, and save them as stills ? )

--
Anyway Great !
Ronald.
Homepage HTTP://www.worldonline.nl/~catware

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 11:18:10 1997
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From: Arturo Pascalin <pascalin@albec.net.mx>
Subject: flexible strip magnet
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Hello:

I'm  new to the list and at first I didnt understand what was going on, 
but Im starting to catch up. I want to try to build a smot for myself, 
but I have a question... 

I found a flexible strip magnet of 9.5 x 3.0 mm section and can be cut 
to any length. It cost only 10 pesos (1.25 USD)/meter in the local hardware 
store.

Can this be use to build the smot? 

Thanks
 ____                     _ __
|  _ \ __ _ ___  ___ __ _| /_/_ __
| |_) / _` / __|/ __/ _` | | | '_ \
|  __/ (_| \__ \ (_| (_| | | | | | |
|_|   \__,_|___/\___\__,_|_|_|_| |_|
Arturo Pascalin  <pascalin@albec.net.mx>
< http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2508 >

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 11:37:30 1997
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From: harti@bbtt.de (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: Intel bugs.. :)
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>Jed Rothwell wrote:
>> 
 A slight change can make a world of difference in
> technology. 99.999% of the time a slight change has a deleterious effect.
> Years ago this was demonstrated at Intel when the workers ran frozen pizzas
> through the chip fabrication ovens during slack hours. No kidding! Their
> clean-room standards were tightened up since then, but several orders of
> magnitude, I bet.

Now I know, why Intel chips seems to come with a few bugs every year ! :)
Just kidding ! :)

Regards, Stefan.
--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 12:05:25 1997
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From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: flexible strip magnet
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Arturo -

> I found a flexible strip magnet [...]
> Can this be use to build the smot?

NO! Mixed polarity on the same face makes these unusable.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 13:39:27 1997
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Ben, I have seen you video and noticed that you do not use a wedge between
the 1st and 2nd ramp.

I use a small wedge to transform the vertical fall from the 1st ramp to a
horizontal movement in the 2nd ramp.  Without the wedge quite a lot of
energy is wasted when the ball hits the U channel of the 2nd ramp after it
exits and falls from the 1st ramp.  I am using thick glass for the wedge
since it is nonferromagnetic, hard and doesn't dampen the fall like a soft
aluminum does.



At 12:55 PM 5/28/97 +0000, you wrote:
>From my webpage...
>
>Ben's SMOT Page
>Simple Magnetic Overunity Toy 
>
>     I'll put more details here soon, but, I thought many of you would
>     like for me to quickly make some pictures and AVI's available to
>     you. They are not the best quality and black and white, but it's
>     something. 
>
>     Bottom Line:
>     Two level SMOT ramps are linked together and working. 
>
>     The steel ball starts at the bottom of ramp 1 and continues past
>     the end of ramp 2. The Steel ball starts by rolling up a ramp and
>     end up 25mm higher, drops 25mm and does it again. (With nothing
>     but Permanet magnets to move it.) 
>
>     KEY POINTS:
>
>          The ramps are on a faily level surface (my desk) 
>          both ramp entrance channels bottoms are flush against the
>          desk Both ramp exit channel bottoms are 25mm above the
>          surface of the desk
>
>     PARTS:
>
>          19mm ball from a PC Mouse, 12mm aluminum channel 
>          magnets: ~4x19x25mm ( Radio Shack) 
>          arranged 5 long and 4 wide for each rail. with a 1/8x1"
>          (almost 4x24x235mm) wide steel backing. And thin plywood and
>          cardboard for the base. 
>
>     The images and AVI's are here so you can see how big they are.  
>
>http:/oscar.clubelite.com:8888/smot
>if that doesn't work
>http://205.152.8.132:8888/smot
>http:/205.152.8.132:8888/smot/images
>
>Greg what's next?
>Can I make a curved one now :)
>
>Ben
>ben@clubelite.com
>
>
>
>
>######################
># Ben Tammetta       #
># ben@clubelite.com  # 
>######################
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 13:44:45 1997
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WARNING:  The flexible strip magnets are TOTALLY unsuitable for Simple OU
toy.  They are polarized with south and north poles ON THE SAME SIDE. (ie.
SNSNSNSNSNSN  like this...).  They are used to hold objects down and this
pole configuration is much more efficient than one pole on one side and an
opposite pole on another side of the strip.  Many of the sheet magnets have
up to 10 poles per square inch !!!

The flexible magnets are also very weak.  Compare in the chart below:



Material  Grade  Demagnet  Curie  BH-Strength

NdFeB     g39 -  21,300    150    40
SmCo	    g26 -  10,000    300    26
AlNiCo    g05 -     640    540     5.5
Ceramic   g08 -   3,200    300     3.5      (BaFe2O3  or  SrFe2O3)
Flexible  g01 -   1,300    100     0.6


Grade = Material quality grade (alloy type ie. ALNICO 5)
Demagnet = Demagnetizing force in Oersteds
Curie = Curie Temperature in Degrees Celsius
BH-Strength = Maximum Energy Product in Mega Gauss Oersteds (MGO)


The above clearly shows that AlNiCo is THE EASIEST to demagnetize.  However
AlNiCo has the highest Curie temperature of them all - 540degC. The
Neodymium (NdFeB) magnets are the strongest (ie. they have the highest
energy product).  Flexible magnets are the weakest.





At 01:10 PM 5/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Hello:
>
>I'm  new to the list and at first I didnt understand what was going on, 
>but Im starting to catch up. I want to try to build a smot for myself, 
>but I have a question... 
>
>I found a flexible strip magnet of 9.5 x 3.0 mm section and can be cut 
>to any length. It cost only 10 pesos (1.25 USD)/meter in the local hardware 
>store.
>
>Can this be use to build the smot? 
>
>Thanks
> ____                     _ __
>|  _ \ __ _ ___  ___ __ _| /_/_ __
>| |_) / _` / __|/ __/ _` | | | '_ \
>|  __/ (_| \__ \ (_| (_| | | | | | |
>|_|   \__,_|___/\___\__,_|_|_|_| |_|
>Arturo Pascalin  <pascalin@albec.net.mx>
>< http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2508 >
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 14:00:49 1997
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Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:56:42 -0700
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:02:32 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2@november
To: tammetta@mindspring.com
cc: freenrg-L@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 1 ramp works, 2 don't,  IT WORKS NOW!
In-Reply-To: <19970528045437449.AAA344@jumanji>
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On Wed, 28 May 1997, Ben Tammetta wrote:
> > > I got all my parts today and spent a lot of time building and
> > > playing with my SMOT.   My parts match Gregs pretty closely. 12mm
***> > > ball, 12mm aluminum channel magnets: ~4x19x25mm  ( RadioShack)
> > > arranged 5 long and 4 wide for each rail. with a 1/8x1" (almost
> > >  4x24mm) wide steel backing.   And thin plywood and cardboard for
Ben,
  are these the radio shack 4x19x25mm Magnets Radio Shack sells 
"with a little ~5mm hole in the center" (i think they are designed 
for 'chokes' in electrical circuts. IF THESE WORK, then I'll get 40 
of them for the 4 (upcoming linkable ramps)..
  didn't know if they were 'strong' enough however, as I have some small
'bar/tube' magnetics that are MUCH stronger.. appears you got the 
radio shack "Chokers" working OK!  do you have 12mm+/- rise(lift)>?
Thanks

se
------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------
-=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150
ekwall2@diac.com                          wk.1.800.798.1100
ekwall2@freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 14:19:33 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:21:40 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2@november
To: tammetta@mindspring.com
cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 2 ramp SMOT works...webpage
In-Reply-To: <19970528050603235.AAA323@jumanji>
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On Wed, 28 May 1997, Ben Tammetta wrote:

>      PARTS:
> 
>           19mm ball from a PC Mouse, 12mm aluminum channel 
>           magnets: ~4x19x25mm ( Radio Shack) 
--------->  arranged 5 long and 4 wide for each rail. with a 1/8x1"
>           (almost 4x24x235mm) wide steel backing. And thin plywood and
>           cardboard for the base. 

well, i bought 40 Radio Shack mags, but are you saying 5x4="20" per 
side (or 40!per ramp)(?) so i'll/you will need 160 for 4 ramps..
BACK to the store (if so,) don't know if they had that many left in the
box though (sigh).. :(   ALSO, how do you get "4wide" 4*19mm or US decimal
"'s = ~3" to fit on a 1" wide metal strap (overlapping and hanging over?).

thanks
se

------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------
-=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150
ekwall2@diac.com                          wk.1.800.798.1100
ekwall2@freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 15:17:14 1997
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Message-Id: <199705282215.PAA25304@mx2.eskimo.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tammetta@terax.clubelite.com>
From: "Ben Tammetta" <tammetta@mindspring.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:13:25 +0000
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Subject: Re: 2 ramp SMOT works...webpage
Reply-to: ben@tammetta.com
Priority: normal
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Hi,

> >      PARTS:
> > 
> >           19mm ball from a PC Mouse, 12mm aluminum channel 
> >           magnets: ~4x19x25mm ( Radio Shack) 
> --------->  arranged 5 long and 4 wide for each rail. with a 1/8x1"
> >           (almost 4x24x235mm) wide steel backing. And thin plywood and
> >           cardboard for the base. 
> 
> well, i bought 40 Radio Shack mags, but are you saying 5x4="20" per 
> side (or 40!per ramp)(?) so i'll/you will need 160 for 4 ramps..
YES

There a chance you can shorten it to 4x4. But i have not tried it. I'd play it
safe and build a 5x4 one.

> box though (sigh).. :(   ALSO, how do you get "4wide" 4*19mm or US decimal
> "'s = ~3" to fit on a 1" wide metal strap (overlapping and hanging over?).

The magnets are in english units... I just measured it in mm's  to 
make things easier.  instead of 1/8"X3/4"X1".  mm's scale much easier.
I wish the US would get on the metric system.

The magnets are laid down longwais.... not up and down.
not 1" high... 3/4" high. or 19mm high... measure in mm's

> thanks
welcome
Ben
 
############################
# Ben Tammetta             #
# ben@interactive.ibm.com  #
############################

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 15:34:56 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:38:32 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2@november
To: Arturo Pascalin <pascalin@albec.net.mx>
cc: freenrg-L@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: flexible strip magnet
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970528122209.277f49f8@albec.net.mx>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.970528162231.20510L-100000@november>
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On Wed, 28 May 1997, Arturo Pascalin wrote:
> 
> I'm  new to the list and at first I didnt understand what was going on, 
> but Im starting to catch up. I want to try to build a smot for myself, 
> but I have a question... 
> I found a flexible strip magnet of 9.5 x 3.0 mm section and can be cut 
> to any length. It cost only 10 pesos (1.25 USD)/meter in the local hardware 
> store.
> Can this be use to build the smot? 
> Thanks
> < http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2508 >

Arturo,
  I don't think so, hopefully others will reply to you, but the group
seems to say that the 'flexable 'strip' magnetics' are lined up
molecularly end to end as in nsnsnsnsnsnsnsnsnsns ALL the way through the
strip.  SMOT1 needs the "WIDE FACE" facing the ball to be either North or
South... if square or round or flat.. the N/S MUST face out to the ball
track and not END to END!  (hence the super-Glue or tape .. as they will
try to 'jump around and realign.  Radio Shack has small 'Choke' type
magnets for $0.32 US each  (appears to take 10 - 40 per section depending
on who's setup you follow.. when in doubt ASK GREG:  He's the
general/LEADER.. (i'm using radio shack until i can get his spec'd mags.)
  -----------------
Imagine that the magnets are COINS, 'Heads'=North Polarity, while
'Tails'=South Polarity... the Coins(mags) will be glued/fastened ALL HEADS
OUT on one(1) side of the ramp & ALL TAILS OUT facing on the other side,
the ball flies up the middle BETWEEN the row of coins/MAGNETS.

       -   +
      -     +
     -       +
    -         +
tails         heads(+)
        o <-----  BALL goes UP!

se
------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------
-=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150
ekwall2@diac.com                          wk.1.800.798.1100
ekwall2@freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 15:45:09 1997
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Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:37:25 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <338CB2F4.3022@worldonline.nl>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:34:28 +0200
From: Ronald de Mol <catware@worldonline.nl>
Organization: World Online
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To: catware@worldonline.nl
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion
References: <970528132211_-1999881547@emout16.mail.aol.com> <338C8A42.2331@worldonline.nl>
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Puthoff@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/23/97 9:16:05 AM, Greg Watson asked for
> clarification of what I wrote:
>
> Hal: << Magnetic field energy is decreased as object moves into
> and quenches part of the field distribution; >>
>
> Greg: <<Quenches part of the field?  I don't understand this Hal.
> If the object is a soft ferromagnetic material, the field energy
> increases due to the additive action of the soft aligning domains
> in the ferrite.>>
>
> Actually, it is the opposite.  When the domains align, the little,
> say, south poles are attracted to the external applied, say, north pole,
> and the little north poles are repelled.  Therefore, the alignment of
> domains within the material serve to cancel out (weaken) locally the
> magnetic field that would have otherwise been there.  The overall result
> is that the field energy has been reduced, this energy now going into
> moving the ball; i.e., field energy is transformed into kinetic energy.
>
> Hal

Hi Hal,

My book 'repertorium der natuurkunde' says:

"magnetic property of the matter.
---------------------------------
In the general a magnetic field is affected through the presence
of matter in it's field. This matter becomes more or less magnatized
and the hereof propagating induction lines are add by the orginal
field. With the most materials this influence comes down on a merely
adding (paramagnetism) or weakening (diamagnetism) of the magnetic field.
There are nevertheless some materials, the so called ferromagnetic
materials, which when put in a magnetic field, this field localy
considerable strengthen (amplifies)."

This text is dutch orginal, so here is the orginal text also:

"Magnetische eigenschappen van de materie:
------------------------------------------
in het algemeen wordt een magnetisch veld beinvloed door de aanwezigheid
van materie in dit veld. Deze materie wordt meer of minder gemagnetiseerd
en de hieruit voortspruitende inductielijnen voegen zich bij het
oorspronkelijke veld. Bij de meeste stoffen komt deze beinvloeding neer
op een slechts geringe versterking (paramagnetisme) of verzwakking
(diamagnetisme) van het magnetische veld. Er zijn echter enkele stoffen,
de zogenaamde ferromagnetische materialen die, in een magnetisch veld
gebracht, dit veld plaatselijk aanzienlijk versterken."

This is also confirmed by the Quickfield simulation gifs.

P.S.: Sorry if this msg appears twice, my outbox did strange...

--
Ronald.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 15:45:40 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:40:50 +0200
From: Ronald de Mol <catware@worldonline.nl>
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References: <970528132211_-1999881547@emout16.mail.aol.com>
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Puthoff@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 5/23/97 9:16:05 AM, Greg Watson asked for
> clarification of what I wrote:
> 
> Hal: << Magnetic field energy is decreased as object moves into
> and quenches part of the field distribution; >>
> 
> Greg: <<Quenches part of the field?  I don't understand this Hal.
> If the object is a soft ferromagnetic material, the field energy
> increases due to the additive action of the soft aligning domains
> in the ferrite.>>
> 
> Actually, it is the opposite.  When the domains align, the little,
> say, south poles are attracted to the external applied, say, north pole,
> and the little north poles are repelled.  Therefore, the alignment of
> domains within the material serve to cancel out (weaken) locally the
> magnetic field that would have otherwise been there.  The overall result
> is that the field energy has been reduced, this energy now going into
> moving the ball; i.e., field energy is transformed into kinetic energy.
> 
> Hal

Hi Hal,

My book 'repertorium der natuurkunde' says:

"magnetic property of the matter.
---------------------------------
In the general a magnetic field is affected through the presence
of matter in it's field. This matter becomes more or less magnatized
and the hereof propagating induction lines are add by the orginal
field. With the most material this influence comes down on a merely
adding (paramagnetism) or weakening (diamagnetism) of the magnetic field.
There are nevertheless some materials, the so called ferromagnetic
materials, which put in a magnetic field this field localy considerable
strengthen (amplifies)."

This text is dutch orginal, so here is the orginal text also:

"Magnetische eigenschappen van de materie:
------------------------------------------
in het algemeen wordt een magnetisch veld beinvloed door de aanwezigheid
van materie in dit veld. Deze materie wordt meer of minder gemagnetiseerd
en de hieruit voortspruitende inductielijnen voegen zich bij het
oorspronkelijke veld. Bij de meeste stoffen komt deze beinvloeding neer
op een slechts geringe versterking (paramagnetisme) of verzwakking
(diamagnetisme) van het magnetische veld. Er zijn echter enkele stoffen,
de zogenaamde ferromagnetische materialen die, in een magnetisch veld
gebracht, dit veld plaatselijk aanzienlijk versterken."

This is also confirmed by the Quickfield simulation gifs.

--
Ronald.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 16:00:01 1997
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Message-ID: <338CB705.5021@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:21:49 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: SMOT Phase 2
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------6E65D05C22
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi All,

Attached are some suggested SMOT ramp mods to make linking easier.  I
guess that means we have started Phase 2.  Some of you are really going
fast.  Slow down and HELP the others, spread your experiences around. 
Lets get dozens if not hundreds BUILDING and PLAYING with these SMOT
ramps.

In Phase 2 there are several goals that I would ask ALL of you to
achieve :

  1) Link 4 SMOT ramps in a straignt line.

  2) Lift each suceeding ramp several mm above the preceeding ramp and
achieve a final lift twice the lift in the first ramp.  For links based
on the plans, thats a 24mm final lift height.

  3) Demonstrate 8-10 ball in transit through the linked ramps.

  4) Achieve a ball roll away with the lifted linked ramps.  This is the
first REAL proof of OU!

This may seem a difficult task, but it can be done!  You will need to
develope good skills in ramp adjustemnts and ramp linking.  After a
while, you will develop a sixth sense of how to adjust your ramps.  You
will KNOW what will happen if you do this or that.

Meanwhile, theory guys (and gals), if you don't build ramps, think about
how to explain this.  Its real, its on the net and it needs to be
explained.

As we are now moving into real interesting territory now, I ask ALL of
you (Builders and Thinkers) to be as open as I have been with you.  If
you REALLY want to change the world, we ALL must be a part of this.

And as to you fence sitters, START BUILDING!

As I have been asked by many .... many people for kits, I have done some
checking and have come up with the following :


 SMOT PHASE 2 kit
 
  4 x SMOT ramps, including ALL components and a manual!

    4 x Base assy,
   16 x Straignt pins,
    4 x Polished Alum "U" channels,
    8 x 12mm Steel balls,
    8 x Magnet arrays,
    1 x Instruction manual,
    1 x Signed Certificate of Authenticity and a picture of me with the
linked ramps.

  Air mailed to anywhere on the planet.

  Cost : $110 US (Money orders please)

  To :

  Greg Watson,
  8 Brabham Grove,
  Aberfoyle Park, 5159,
  South Australia,
  Australia.

  Your SMOT ramp kit will be posted with-in 24 hours of receiving your
money.


Best Regards,
 Greg

--------------6E65D05C22
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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RuREVuRFNt2AAAA7
--------------6E65D05C22--


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 16:06:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA22297; Wed, 28 May 1997 14:59:34 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:59:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:56:49 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970528175632_-730957027@emout20.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
cc: gwatson@microtronics.com.au, harti@bbtt.de
Subject: LINKED SMOTs : TEST PASSED
Resent-Message-ID: <"lV0EZ1.0.DS5.0hAZp"@mx2>
Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Hi All,

I have tested SUCCESSFULLY two linked SMOTs, its work very well but the
adjustement must be very accurate.

The disruption gap between the magnetic potential ( in the null zone ) and
the potential energy of gravity for regauging the system ( T.Bearden theory)
must be adjusted precisely. ( look at my picture )

As said Grag Watson : " The height of the magnets MUST be less than the lift
otherwise you will not be able to get the ramps to link. "

I have linked two SMOTs ( V 1.02 ) devices, each SMOT is composed of :

- 2 Magnetic RAMPS :

Each ramp : 15 magnets in 3 layers of 5 magnets,
    Ceramic Magnets( ferrite ) : 25 x 40 x 10 mm
    A wide steel backing : 25 x 200 x 4 mm
    25 mm steel ball
    20 x 20 mm aluminum U channel
Plywood and cardboard for the base

Magnetic ramps spec :
    Input gauge : 70 mm
    Output gauge : 58 mm
    Height of slope : 25 mm
    Length : 90 mm (slope) + 20 mm ( entrance )

You will find all pictures and videos in my web site at :

      http://members.aol.com/overunity3/html/s102jln.htm

We are on the way of Overunity.....

SMOTy yours,

Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 16:26:28 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA21920; Wed, 28 May 1997 16:25:14 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:25:14 -0700
Message-ID: <338CBE6C.5DC8@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:53:24 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
CC: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: straight SMOT ramps OU?
References: <l03102802afb228d07d81@[207.147.196.49]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Vorts -
> 
> Wow man, like, I just had a *heavy* SMOT flash...
> 
> You have one straight ramp. Ball drops out to the starting level, but
> sticks back against the drop rail with a certain amount of force at an
> obviously lower magnetic potential than at the start. We are not very
> impressed. You link two ramps. Ball ends up stuck at the end with the same
> amount of force. Link three, then four ramps. Ball ends up stuck at the end
> with the same amount of force. Oh! I see now - you could just keep on
> linking and linking, and the ball sticks back with the *same* amount of
> force at the final ramp - no matter how many ramps there are! Oh, I'm sure
> there's a tiny cumulative effect for a force increase from more ramps
> behind it, 

Not that I have seen,

> but... If it were a no-win game, you'd have 4 times the force
> after 4 ramps. But no matter how much friction and eddy currents and air
> resistance is met, clackity clack, ramp after ramp, many feet away, you end
> up with essentially the same back force. At some point, that back force
> obviously isn't enough to account for all the energy spent getting the ball
> to that point through all the ramps and losses. One ramp, maybe not. But
> several...
> 
> If you can link ramps (I saw Ben Tammetta's AVI - nice job, Ben), and the
> back force at the end doesn't grow substantially with each ramp, (and the
> magnets don't die), then Greg's gizmo *has* to be OU!
> 
> Everybody knew this already, right?
> 
>  - 99th Monkey,
> Honolulu HI

Hi Rick,

Its good when the light turns on.

Good BUILDING and TESTING to you.

Awaiting your SMOT Phase 2 results.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 16:35:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA23689; Wed, 28 May 1997 16:31:34 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:31:34 -0700
Message-ID: <338CBFE9.C00@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:59:45 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
CC: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT QField Sims
References: <199705281610.JAA01538@norway.it.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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Michael Randall wrote:
> 
> Hi Greg,
> 
> Yes I agree that you spent a LOT of time and energy on the SMOT design to
> make it work and then to make it easy for duplication by others. We all
> thank you for sharing this information. As people successfully duplicate the
> closing the loop SMOT, maybe then we figure out how to power homes with this
> technology.
> 
> The Qfield simms are a great way to explain what is happening and maybe even
> answer where the energy is coming from. Any info on the return fields and
> why they flow in the opposite direction?

Its what magnets do.  The flux returns to the other pole.
 
> Did you ever do a sim with the ball hitting the null field at the start and
> end of the ramp? I would be interested in seeing them.

Will do a series and post to the web sites.

> Thanks again,
> Michael

Hi Michael,

Remember in looking at the sims that a quick mag field drop off is to
the ball, like hitting a brick wall.

Part of the SMOT secret is the way the entry field strength increase is
very sharp and the exit is very smooth and slow.

Hard entry, soft exit.


Best Regards and good testing,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 16:38:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA25591; Wed, 28 May 1997 16:36:28 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:36:28 -0700
Message-ID: <338CC10D.22E@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:04:37 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OU "toy"
References: <199705281924_MC2-1775-50E5@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Nicholas Palmer wrote:
> 
> Hi Greg, just to let you know I'm following the excitement on Vortex. I am
> asking around for British suppliers of suitable magnets and, if they can be
> found, then I will attempt a replication.
>         BTW, I cannot seem to see the embedded GIFS etc in your messages -
> they just stay in ASCII characters - I have tried reading the messages with
> Netscape 2.0 and Wincim 3.0 - any suggestions? I assume they are similar to
> those on Jean Louis' site? (which I have seen)
> 
>                          Nick -  Group Coordinator, Jersey FoE

Hi Nick,

I use Netscape 3.0 Gold and Win95.  I don't use Mine.  The gifs and Jpes
are sent as attachments.  More than that I can't say.  Anyone else out
there that can help???


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 18:09:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA12719; Wed, 28 May 1997 18:06:48 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:06:48 -0700
From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705290106.VAA01876@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: Direct energy transfer with SMOT
To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com (science)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:06:31 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
Content-Type: text
Resent-Message-ID: <"2u2FK1.0.B63.bQDZp"@mx1>
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Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Hey, if you linked hundreds of thousends of these together and made a chain
around the world, and linked the end to the start, that would be a direct
OU device.  It would run around the planet forever.  In that case, I would
say it was powered by the gravity of the earth, though I'm not sure how. 
Would a SMOT run in space?

Andrew


-- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 18:17:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA16432; Wed, 28 May 1997 18:16:26 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:16:26 -0700
Message-ID: <01BC6B92.E74B4BC0@chiltepine.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: OU "toy" (about encoded files)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:07:44 -0700
Encoding: 46 TEXT
Resent-Message-ID: <"QpQzF2.0.U04.cZDZp"@mx1>
Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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For encoded files that don't get decoded automatically, I use WINCODE, 
which will encode/decode lots of stuff. It's a Windows program, hope that 
works for you.
I looked it up at http://WWW.shareware.com/   and came up with the 
following FTP address for the file:
ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/win3/encode/wc273r16.zip

Dan Quickert
dequickert@ucdavis.edu
916-756-0575

>----------
>From: 	Greg Watson
>Sent: 	Wednesday, May 28, 1997 4:34 PM
>To: 	freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Cc: 	vortex-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: 	Re: OU "toy"
>
>Nicholas Palmer wrote:
>>
>> Hi Greg, just to let you know I'm following the excitement on Vortex. I 
am
>> asking around for British suppliers of suitable magnets and, if they can 
be
>> found, then I will attempt a replication.
>>         BTW, I cannot seem to see the embedded GIFS etc in your messages 
-
>> they just stay in ASCII characters - I have tried reading the messages 
with
>> Netscape 2.0 and Wincim 3.0 - any suggestions? I assume they are similar 
to
>> those on Jean Louis' site? (which I have seen)
>>
>>                          Nick -  Group Coordinator, Jersey FoE
>
>Hi Nick,
>
>I use Netscape 3.0 Gold and Win95.  I don't use Mine.  The gifs and Jpes
>are sent as attachments.  More than that I can't say.  Anyone else out
>there that can help???
>
>
>Best Regards,
> Greg



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 18:41:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA27063; Wed, 28 May 1997 18:40:03 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:40:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: HLafonte@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:38:24 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970528213709_1107782466@emout03.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: BULLETIN !!! BULLETIN!!!   IT WORKS OTHER WAYS ALSO!!!
Resent-Message-ID: <"flcBC1.0.mc6.mvDZp"@mx2>
Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Greg, 
    You are not going to believe what I am about to tell you! I was thinking
about how long it would take me to round up all the parts for your fixture,
and then I saw on the list the mention of the kit. Well I got to thinking how
long It would take in the mail and I am the kind of person who likes to do
things now or sooner. I got to looking in my " junk box" from old experments,
and found two one inch long by 7/ 8 " diameter, neodymium-iron-boron magnets
that I had use to play with about a year ago to see if the magnetic switches
I had read about, worked. I had two soft steel bars 2 and one half inches
long by one half inch thick by one inch wide. I put the magnet on the back of
one of the one inch wide sides at the middle of the bars length. I did the
same with the other bar. Then I placed the two on my table in a v shape as
you do. Then I got a one and one half inch steel ball I had given to my
daughter I found in a machine shop years ago, and put it in the center groove
of a plastic foot ruler my daughter had. I put the ruller between the two
bars and elevated the end one eight inch above the table top. I checked the
ramp without the magnets to make sure the ball rolled down to prove it was a
slope. It rolled down very fast. I then put the magnets back with nothing
holding them in place, just their weight holding them down. I rolled the
magnet up the ramp to about one half inch from the v and when I felt the
slighest pull from the bars I let it go. The first time it stoped at the end
of the magnets and I noticed that the end of the ruler was past the magnets.
I moved it to just past the end of the magnets and the second time it rolled
up the ramp from a dead stop to the end of the ruller and fell off !!! I want
to put a video on the net and pictures of it. How do I go about it ? I have
never done any of that before. It works every time and I want to show every
one another way of doing what you have discovered. I am so excited I can
hardly type, this is more fun than I've had in years! How do I get It on the
net in video?
Thanks, Butch LaFonte

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 18:55:13 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:54:22 -0700
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From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
Subject: t
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t

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 19:26:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA32288; Wed, 28 May 1997 19:25:06 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:25:06 -0700
Message-ID: <338CE887.58FA@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:53:03 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: SMOT Kits,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"y927K1.0.Iu7.0aEZp"@mx1>
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Hi All,

Sorry for the confusion.  I am too used to dealing in US Dollars.

The pricing is $150 Aust Dollars via an International Bank Cheque.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 19:30:51 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:28:49 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2@november
To: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
cc: science <freenrg-L@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Direct energy transfer with SMOT
In-Reply-To: <199705290106.VAA01876@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
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On Wed, 28 May 1997, Science wig. sig. wrote:
> 
> Hey, if you linked hundreds of thousends of these together and made a chain
> around the world, and linked the end to the start, that would be a direct
> OU device.  It would run around the planet forever.  In that case, I would
> say it was powered by the gravity of the earth, though I'm not sure how. 
> Would a SMOT run in space?  <--duh yep!
> Andrew
> 
> 
When it comes by here (Denver) I could put a note on it to you and you
could get it when it passes by -eh? (smiles) like the note on the pigeon
leg sans the pigeon / food /& coops/cages.... (still smiling)..
-- i'm going on to the Rotary loop to power my bike, then to the back yard
power the house version.. --    :)

se

------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------
-=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150
ekwall2@diac.com                          wk.1.800.798.1100
ekwall2@freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 20:09:19 1997
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Greg,
 Steel ball dia. is 1 and 1/4 " not 1 and 1/2", I was very excited, sorry.
Butch

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 21:33:53 1997
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From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
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Subject: Re: correction on ball dia. MINE WORKS
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On Wed, 28 May 1997 HLafonte@aol.com wrote:
> Greg,
>  Steel ball dia. is 1 and 1/4 " not 1 and 1/2", I was very excited, sorry.
> Butch
> 
Finally got enough little magnets - COUNT ME IN on WORKING SMOT1! -
I only have 3 Balls :) and some Buckshot and BB's :( laying around.
ALL THREE BALLS WORK 18mm/20mm(mouse type ball)/25mm.
or in decimal/US 3/4"/ 7/8" /15/16"(auto wheel bearing).
They ALL Accelerate and jump! out of the raised end,.. to which my wife
said the same thing as Gregs' wife " well, of course the do silly."
  I don't think she grasps just how much FASTER the EXIT (zoom) is to the
INPUT (null) and its implications....   THIS IS GREAT GOING ON TO SMOT2!
--------------------------
Oh, while waiting on exact parts (and I'm glad Greg is selling kits! WE
ALL HIM ANYWAY HERE -eh?), I wanted to let some of you know that the RADIO
SHACK part #64-1879 'Choke magnets' WORK OK!  Rather than the 'V' entry
exit, I set the side metal bars parallel and STACKED as someone mentioned
earlier today. 1-2-3-4 DEEP  (per side) North on one side SOUTH on the
other.. noted N/N or S/S not near as FORCEFUL(zoomable)...
Looking forward to CLOSE the LOOP... wish original plans were BIGGER
though.  This will make one hell of a MUFFLED RAIL GUN!!!  I hope all this
international "Brain-Power" can get us a Rotory-in-a-can so i can take it
up camping.


se

------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------
-=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150
ekwall2@diac.com                          wk.1.800.798.1100
ekwall2@freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 00:01:59 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:01:53 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Mika Letonsaari <mletonsa@cc.hut.fi>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT - rationale
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On Tue, 27 May 1997, Scott Becker wrote:

> Mika,
> 
> I don't think you quite understand the claim. The entrance of the
> linked ramps are all at the same elevation, they do not go successively
> higher. This may sound less impressive but if you put a hundred ramps
> together then the little ball will get pulled out of your fingers and
> travel 20 meters with no power! ( Of course the forth coming curved
> ramps will be more to the point. )

Ok. Sorry. But now it sounds far more realistic and I'm building one 
too...

            --------------------------------------------
       Mika Letonsaari, mletonsa@cc.hut.fi, tel. (09) 468 2583
  Student of Engineering Physics at Helsinki University of Technology
"All science is either physics or stamp collecting." - Ernest Rutherford
            --------------------------------------------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 01:31:51 1997
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Subject: SMOT Phase 1, 2 & 3
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For the record:

I had success going all the way to phase #3 (Please don't ask me to reveal
the details of #2 and #3, that would upset Greg's plan)


I am using NdFeB grade-39 magnets, glass V channel and glass ball filled
with iron powder all mounted on a plexiglass base.


In phase #1 the SMOT ramp works every time and provides over 2inches of
lift on a 1" (25mm) ball

In Phase #2 the ramps (4pcs) link reliably and allow the ball to traverse
all of them without slowing

In Phase #3 a new construction of the ramp is used, but it still behaves
like the ramp from phase #1 (ie. reliable lift & exit).  The tuning
experience gained in #1 is vital in adjusting the new ramp.  I am only
guessing that Greg will call this Phase #3

In Phase #4 the new ramps (4pcs) are joined and the loop is supposed to be
closed.  I was not successful at this step (probably engineering problems),
I am getting partial success though.  Note:  I am not following Greg's
directions at this point.



The idea to link 4 ramps from Phase #2 at 90 degree angle does not work.  I
tried it, Greg tried it and we came to a conclusion that the ball has to
move away from the ramp in the 3rd dimension (up/down) not sideways but
parallel to the ramp's length.  In order to link the 4 ramps into a loop
you will have to wait for the secret in Phase #3 & #4.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 05:37:16 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:18:51 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Ben Tammetta wrote:
> 
> Greg what's next?
> Can I make a curved one now :)
> 
> Ben

Hi Ben,

Great work.  I have downloaded all your images.

I would suggest you link 2 more ramps.  The middle two then have to work
with mag fields on each end.

When you get 4 linked, try the party trick and see how many ball you can
get in transit at one time.  I could get 8 to 10 balls going at once. 
It really looks great.

Then try lifting each succeding ramp by a few mm until you can get the
final lift twice the first lift.

When you get there, I will show you how to get a roll away!


Best Regards and congrats on the results,
 Greg


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 05:39:11 1997
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Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> To: Vortex
> 
> John Logajan, who has taken to signing his messages twice -- John Logajan, who
> has taken to signing his messages twice, says:
> 
>      And speaking of ramps in a series -- again there is the potential for
>      illusion, since the ramps are all adjusted by "feel", one might
>      unintentionally get the ball to move through all four ramps by making
>      each ramp magnetic field stronger than the previous one.

Once adjusted for linked operation, the individual ramps can be swapped
around.  The field at the top of the last ramp is the same as that at
the top of the first.  There is no creeping field increase here.

> Good point!
> 
> Greg:
> 
> Is there any reason why four ramps cannot be arranged head to tail, in a loop?
> Does the ball object to turning 90 degrees after it falls? Would it jump out
> of the second ramp, and if so, couldn't you prevent this with some kind of cup
> to catch it?

The ball must stay on the "Neutral line" between the magnet arrays. 
Some slight angular linking is possible, but I have found that the best
I could get is around 7-8 deg.

> For that matter, you might arrange three ramps in a triangle, instead of four
> in a square.

Wish it were that easy.

> If you, or anyone else trying this experiment, can close the loop with three
> or four ramps please do so as soon as possible. This is the acid test.

The loop will close.

> If the ball does not want to take a sharp turn between ramps, I suppose you
> will need five or six to make a circle. 

Still much too sharp.

> I do not think that we can be so sure
> about Logajan's earlier statement that a "J" shaped return could make the ball
> go back to the beginning with only one ramp. It seems to me the magnets above
> might prevent it from rolling back. A series of ramps seems like a fairer
> test.
> 
> The descriptions, schematics, photographs and parts lists have been most
> helpful. This already takes the prize for the most open, understated, and
> apparently sane o-u magnetic motor project in history. It is also one of the
> best cooperative efforts I have seen, reminiscent of the early days in
> microcomputers. It is a shame CF is so hard to do. However, speaking of
> history, I believe I have seen schematics for similar magnet-ramp-and-hole
> gadgets in articles about perpetual motion machines. I recall one in the
> Scientific American. In other words, people have tried similar approaches many
> times, with no success. But you never know. Perhaps they never tried this
> particular design. A slight change can make a world of difference in
> technology. 99.999% of the time a slight change has a deleterious effect.
> Years ago this was demonstrated at Intel when the workers ran frozen pizzas
> through the chip fabrication ovens during slack hours. No kidding! Their
> clean-room standards were tightened up since then, but several orders of
> magnitude, I bet.

As far as I know, my SMOT ramp design and linking system is unique.

The design looks simple, but its not.  There has been much work done on
controlling the mag field under the ramp and the exit characteristics. 
Very small changes will stop the devices operation.  But once adjusted,
the operation is very soild!

> - Jed

Hi Jed,

Hang in there.  Four Linked ramps with 8-10 balls rolling up and down is
really an eye opener.


Best Regards,
 Greg


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 05:39:12 1997
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Steve Ekwall wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 27 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote:
> 
> > > And for the BUILD phase...
> > > I have earlyer already 2 models made, one with round alnico-5 magnets
> > > and one with 50x19x5 magnets (Both a succes for a SINGLE model).
> > > The problem is that I really need the 13x10x5 magnets and I can't find
> > > them anywhere yet.
> > > Here comes my problem: In ALL the models I have made and seen, the
> > > exit point is just before the start of the last magnet.
> Hopefully there are no stupid questions, but even my wife is excited about
> building one of these smot1 'toys'  QUESTION: are these "bar magnets" like
> a tootsie roll shape OR Flat and Stacked "Disk (ceramic style)" stack..
>  Question arises as I SEE "BarS" stack nsnsnsn but NO "North/ South" as in
> jnaudin pics.  My wife says you mean "Flat Round" coin shaped magnets.
>   Of course she's a Chemist(!) so what does she know.  Oddly we can both
> make your mm x mm x mm demensions fit our agrument! :)
> Thanks ( one of us will take the other out to dinner :) we both win!
> se
> 
> ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------
> -=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150

Hi Steve,

The magnets are rectangular blocks.  Mine are 4x10x13mm, magnetised
through the 4mm thickness.  One array has the N pole facing into the
ramp and the other array has the S pole facing into the ramp.


Hope this helps,
 Greg


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 05:39:10 1997
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In a message dated 97-05-28:

<<  File:  ATTRIBS.BND (2668 bytes)
 DL Time (28800 bps): < 1 minute
  
...... it has been conclusively proven that stuffing ten Blue Chip
 Stamps in a parking meter will freeze time forever.
 
JD>>

Beyond Packed Attributes?????

OK where is the rest of your story???

You may enjoy some of the research below
FOR MAGNETS SEE #6 

  ETHERIAL ELECTROGRAVITICS
   by Bill Hamilton

1.  MODERN ETHER DRIFT EXPERIMENT

A. Brillet and J.L. Hall conducted a modern ether drift experiment in
1979.  Brillet and Hall put a laser on a rotating platform and split the
beam.  One part of the beam went into a Fabry-Perot interferometer, the
other was directed via mirrors off the platform to be compared with a
reference beam from a stationary laser.  The frequency of the rotating
laser was compared with that of the reference laser; the difference was
Fourier analyzed. Any anisotropy of the speed of light would show up as
a frequency shift which varied dependent on the direction of the
interferometer.  If the old pre-Lorentz ether theory were true (static
ether), they would have found a frequency shift dependent on sidereal
direction of the interferometer and found no such effect.

They also found a frequency shift of 17 Hz at twice the table rotation
rate, which they could not explain on direction of interferometer with
respect to the lab.  It is this effect which is predicted by an
entrained ether theory.

***An entrained ether theory favors a dynamic ether, an ether that can be
entrained in motion by a rotating object, such as earth, embedded within
the dynamic ether.***

2.  ETHER EXPLANATIONS

If a velocity-dependent medium such as the ether could be established by
experiment, then it could open the door to alternative explanations to
SR and GR regarding physical phenomena.  If this ether is quantized,
then we could explore the theoretical nature of a quantum ether.  Is
gravity a result of some state of the quantum ether?

***Does the quantum ether explain inertia?***  

What does an electric ormagnetic field do to the state of the quantum ether?
 Are material particles some wave-state of the quantum ether?  Can we unify
physical
principles by considering a quantum ether?

3.  EXPERIMENTING WITH LIGHT

A test of light speed could be made if some object holding a measuring
device could accelerate to some sizable fraction of light speed, say
.5c, and test the speed of an electromagnetic emission from this object
through space to a reflection point and back to the object from the
reference frame of the moving object.

Also, Bryan Wallace delivered a paper on the 1961 measurements of the
distance of Venus using radar.  Wallace claims that the inconsistencies
in the measurements are not supportive of SR, but 
***support a C+v velocity for the radar signal.***  
Perhaps a review of this data, and further refined experiments could
determine if the data is consistent with SR or Galilean addition of
velocities.

4.  SPACE DRIVES

Why is it important to determine the nature of the ether of space and
time?  One obvious answer is to determine whether we could find new ways
to travel through space or time. 

****The most common solution offered in the past has been to use hyperspatial
dimensions to cross enormous distances that separate stellar systems.****

While it is true that space could harbor more than three dimensions, and time
could be enfolded from greater than one dimension, the energy dimensions of
ether have yet to be explored.

NASA is now interested in breakthrough physics, on new solutions to space
travel, on dispensing with rocket propellants 
****and finding new sources of energy, and on theoretical means for breaking
the light barrier.****  

****If the light barrier can be broken by some sort of inertial drive, a
drive that changes the resistance of the ether, reducing that resistance
in a forward direction, then the velocity of an object may, indeed,
exceed the measured velocity of light.*****

In actual fact, if the properties of weight and mass can be nullified by
application of
electromagnetic forces to the ether in the vicinity of our test object,
the object may be propelled without inertial lag and "g" forces to reach
incredible speeds with the slightest expenditure of energy.

5.  EXPERIMENTS IN ELECTROGRAVITICS

According to the Air Force Manual from Wright-Patterson AFB on
Electrogravitics we have this description on the Thomas Townsend Brown
discovery. 

Electrogravitics might be described as a synthesis of electrostatic
energy used for propulsion - either vertical propulsion or horizontal or
both - and gravitics, or dynamic counterbary, in which energy is also
used to set up a local gravitational force independent of the earth's.

Electrostatic energy for propulsion has been predicted as a possible
means of propulsion in space when the thrust from a neutron motor or ion
motor would be sufficient in a dragless environment to produce
astronomical velocities. But the ion motor is not strictly a part of the
science of electrogravitics, since barycentric control in an
electrogravitics system is envisaged for a vehicle operating within the
earth's environment and it is not seen initially for space application.
Probably large scale space operations would have to await the full
development of electrogravitics to enable large pieces of equipment to
be moved out of the region of the earth's strongest gravity effects. So,
though electrostatic motors were thought of in 1925, electrogravitics
had its birth after the War, when Townsend Brown sought to improve on
the various proposals that then existed for electrostatic motors
sufficiently to produce some visible manifestation of sustained motion.
Whereas earlier electrostatic tests were essentially pure research,
Brown's rigs were aimed from the outset at producing a flying article.
As a private venture he produced evidence of motion using condensers in
a couple of saucers suspended by arms rotating round a central tower
with input running down the arms. The massive-k situation was summarized
subsequently in a report, Project Winterhaven, in 1952. Using the data
some conclusions were arrived at that might be expected from ten or more
years of intensive development - similar to that, for instance, applied
to the turbine engine. Using a number of assumptions as to the nature of
gravity, the report postulated a saucer as the basis of a possible
interceptor with Mach 3 capability. Creation of a local gravitational
system would confer upon the fighter the sharp-edged changes of
direction typical of motion in space.

The essence of electrogravitics thrust is the use of a very strong
positive charge on one side of the vehicle and a negative on the other.
The core of the motor is a condenser and the ability of the condenser to
hold its charge (the k-number) is the yardstick of performance. With air
as 1, current dielectrical materials can yield 6 and use of barium
aluminate can raise this considerably, barium titanium oxide (a baked
ceramic) can offer 6,000 and there is promise of 30,000, which would be
sufficient for supersonic speed.

The original Brown rig produced 30 fps on a voltage of around 50,000 and
a small amount of current in the milliamp range. There was no detailed
explanation of gravity in Project Winterhaven, but it was assumed that
particle dualism in the subatomic structure of gravity would coincide in
its effect with the issuing stream of electrons from the electrostatic
energy source to produce counterbary. The Brown work probably remains a
realistic approach to the practical realization of electrostatic
propulsion and sustentation. Whatever may be discovered by the Gravity
Research Foundation of New Boston a complete understanding and synthetic
reproduction of gravity is not essential for limited success. The
electrogravitics saucer can perform the function of a classic lifting
surface - it produces a pushing effect on the under surface and a
suction effect on the upper, but, unlike the airfoil, it does not
require a flow of air to produce the effect.

6.  AN EXPERIMENT IN MAGNETOGRAVITICS

The limitation in potential difference achieved by the Brown apparatus
has led some of us involved in gravity research to consider the use of
magnets and magnetic fields.

The basis of this concept in magnetogravitics is the MHD generator.  If
a hot gas is seeded with certain elements and the gas is totally ionized
this will produce a plasma in which all nucleons and electrons are
disassociated in a hydrodynamic mixture.  This charged or stratified
charged mixture is confined to a volume of space by bottling it inside a
magnetic field.  Varying magnetic fields are also used to deflect
cathode rays in television tubes or particle acclerators.  By confining
the charges in a magnetic bottle very high potentials can develop
without dielectric breakdown.  

Much is known concerning magnetic flux rotation through conductors or
conduction currents confined by magnetic fields, but little is known
about interacting magnetic fields.

An experiment now being assembled tests the hypothesis that a homopolar
generator, a generator consisting of a coupled conducting disk and
magnet that co-rotates with the armature.  Usually such an apparatus is
tapped for high amperage currents.  In my proposal the homopolar
generator rotates within a time-varying magnetic field to increase the
potential difference across the radius of the disk, maintaining this
potential by magnetic confinement of rim charge.  A conducting disk of
Alnico with a slightly raised center would be an ideal armature as it
should act as a one-piece homopolar generator.  

In previous measurements of spinning homopolar disks, the center becomes
strongly positive and the rim of the disk, negative.  This could be
considered an open Brown capacitor that should exhibit an electrogravity
effect.  It is also proposed that measurements should be taken similar
to the measurements taken in the Finnish superconductor weight-reduction
experiments.

7.  FUTURE DIRECTIONS

In effect, electrogravitic or magnetogravitic propulsion if successfully
developed would lead to a novel form of asymmetric thrust that could be
adapted to ground, air, and space transport systems.  Such devices could
be energized using fuel cells or possibly so-called cold fusion cells
and revolutionize our entire systems of transportation.  Beyond this we
must find means to extend our exploration of space.	

Bill Hamilton
Executive Director
SKYWATCH INTERNATIONAL

"It is easier to ridicule than investigate, but not as profitable." 

MjMichael
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/futrtools/index.htm">FutrTools</A>
Crosspollination seeds the universe of the mind.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 05:42:23 1997
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From: "SAM GORDON" <lance@bluegrass.net>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: This SMOT thing works!!
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:42:12 -0400
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----------
>> At 10:32 PM 5/26/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >
> >The hacksaw blade is made out of a very hard steel that is NOT very soft
> >magnetically (low permeability).  The hacksaw blade is not a good
> >substitute for a strip of a real soft steel.
> >
> >BTW:  The bearing ball is also made out of a very hard alloy and its
> >permeability is not as high as iron or soft steel.
> >
> >
> >At 06:13 PM 5/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
> > I couldn't find any small refrig magnets
> >>so I used 16 round 11mm x 4mm
> >>ceramic mags i had here, That I glued on a piece of hacksaw blade which
is
> >>10mm wide x 1.5 or 2mm thick I managed to get the steel ball to roll up
the
> >>ramp 8 mm higher
> >
> >
> >
>      I didn't realize this post would cause problems, I used the above
only for a temporary trial, all sources where closed on memmorial day. I'm
now gathering the items to make a proper smot. But you know, the thing
still worked with the wrong stuff. But it may not work for the multi ramp
phase so I plan on making the ramp as
per Greg's design. 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 05:51:33 1997
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From: ben@clubelite.com (Ben Tammetta)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:46:27 +0000
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Subject: Re: 2 ramp SMOT works...webpage
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Hi Michael,

> Michael Randall
>  
> BTW, what type of straight pins did you use to hold the mag assy in place. 

Push pins,/ Thumb tacts, used for putting infomation on cork boards.  
They go through a layer of cardboard and into plywood.

> >
> >     The images and AVI's are here so you can see how big they are.  
> >
> >http:/oscar.clubelite.com:8888/smot
 



######################
# Ben Tammetta       #
# ben@clubelite.com  # 
######################

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 08:41:12 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:37:17 -0400
From: ce3cwf = felix meyer <ce3cwf@cmet.net>
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How to close the loop
=====================

With interest I am watching the SMOT project of Greg Watson.
If you want to close the loop you have to modify the output
side of the Mag Field.
Bend it roughly 90 deg to both sides and you will be able to close the
loop. Dont work linear, think 3 dimensional.
I think Greg will explain in Phase 4 how to adjust the magnets.
It works great !

Felix
-- 

mailto:ce3cwf@cmet.net

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 10:23:41 1997
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In a message dated 5/23/97 9:16:05 AM, Greg Watson asked for clarification of
what I wrote:

Hal: << Magnetic field energy is decreased as object moves into and quenches
part of the field distribution; >>

Greg: <<Quenches part of the field?  I don't understand this Hal.

If the object is a soft ferromagnetic material, the field energy
increases due to the additive action of the soft aligning domains in the
ferrite.>>

Actually, it is the opposite.  When the domains align, the little, say, south
poles are attracted to the external applied, say, north pole, and the little
north poles are repelled.  Therefore, the alignment of domains within the
material serve to cancel out (weaken) locally the magnetic field that would
have otherwise been there.  The overall result is that the field energy has
been reduced, this energy now going into moving the ball; i.e., field energy
is transformed into kinetic energy.

Hal   


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 11:01:00 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:54:03 +0200
From: Ronald de Mol <catware@worldonline.nl>
Organization: World Online
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Subject: Re: 2 ramp SMOT works...webpage
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Ben Tammetta wrote:
> 
> Ben's SMOT Page
> Simple Magnetic Overunity Toy
> 
>      I'll put more details here soon, but, I thought many of you would
>      like for me to quickly make some pictures and AVI's available to
>      you. They are not the best quality and black and white, but it's
>      something.
>      <snip>
>      The images and AVI's are here so you can see how big they are.
> 
> http://oscar.clubelite.com:8888/smot
> if that doesn't work
> http://205.152.8.132:8888/smot
> http:/205.152.8.132:8888/smot/images
> <snip>
> 
> Ben
> ben@clubelite.com
> 
> ######################
> # Ben Tammetta       #
> # ben@clubelite.com  #
> ######################

Hi Ben,

Great, Great, Great work !!!

I have made a 'Link-to' page on my homepage where all the 'SMOT' type
hompages are. ( i hope there are soon comming more. )

Can you immagine that i'm desperate waiting for my magnets...  :-(

P.S.: Why are youre AVI's in Hi quality and your photo's not so ?
(Could you not 'photo video' the shots, and save them as stills ? )

--
Anyway Great !
Ronald.
Homepage HTTP://www.worldonline.nl/~catware

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 11:18:10 1997
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From: Arturo Pascalin <pascalin@albec.net.mx>
Subject: flexible strip magnet
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Hello:

I'm  new to the list and at first I didnt understand what was going on, 
but Im starting to catch up. I want to try to build a smot for myself, 
but I have a question... 

I found a flexible strip magnet of 9.5 x 3.0 mm section and can be cut 
to any length. It cost only 10 pesos (1.25 USD)/meter in the local hardware 
store.

Can this be use to build the smot? 

Thanks
 ____                     _ __
|  _ \ __ _ ___  ___ __ _| /_/_ __
| |_) / _` / __|/ __/ _` | | | '_ \
|  __/ (_| \__ \ (_| (_| | | | | | |
|_|   \__,_|___/\___\__,_|_|_|_| |_|
Arturo Pascalin  <pascalin@albec.net.mx>
< http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2508 >

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 11:37:30 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:31:57 +0200
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From: harti@bbtt.de (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: Intel bugs.. :)
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>Jed Rothwell wrote:
>> 
 A slight change can make a world of difference in
> technology. 99.999% of the time a slight change has a deleterious effect.
> Years ago this was demonstrated at Intel when the workers ran frozen pizzas
> through the chip fabrication ovens during slack hours. No kidding! Their
> clean-room standards were tightened up since then, but several orders of
> magnitude, I bet.

Now I know, why Intel chips seems to come with a few bugs every year ! :)
Just kidding ! :)

Regards, Stefan.
--
Hartmann Multimedia Service,  Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: ++ 49 30-345 00 497  FAX: ++ 49 30-345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  Web site: http://www.harti.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 12:05:25 1997
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From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: flexible strip magnet
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Arturo -

> I found a flexible strip magnet [...]
> Can this be use to build the smot?

NO! Mixed polarity on the same face makes these unusable.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 13:39:27 1997
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Subject: Re: 2 ramp SMOT + wedge
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Ben, I have seen you video and noticed that you do not use a wedge between
the 1st and 2nd ramp.

I use a small wedge to transform the vertical fall from the 1st ramp to a
horizontal movement in the 2nd ramp.  Without the wedge quite a lot of
energy is wasted when the ball hits the U channel of the 2nd ramp after it
exits and falls from the 1st ramp.  I am using thick glass for the wedge
since it is nonferromagnetic, hard and doesn't dampen the fall like a soft
aluminum does.



At 12:55 PM 5/28/97 +0000, you wrote:
>From my webpage...
>
>Ben's SMOT Page
>Simple Magnetic Overunity Toy 
>
>     I'll put more details here soon, but, I thought many of you would
>     like for me to quickly make some pictures and AVI's available to
>     you. They are not the best quality and black and white, but it's
>     something. 
>
>     Bottom Line:
>     Two level SMOT ramps are linked together and working. 
>
>     The steel ball starts at the bottom of ramp 1 and continues past
>     the end of ramp 2. The Steel ball starts by rolling up a ramp and
>     end up 25mm higher, drops 25mm and does it again. (With nothing
>     but Permanet magnets to move it.) 
>
>     KEY POINTS:
>
>          The ramps are on a faily level surface (my desk) 
>          both ramp entrance channels bottoms are flush against the
>          desk Both ramp exit channel bottoms are 25mm above the
>          surface of the desk
>
>     PARTS:
>
>          19mm ball from a PC Mouse, 12mm aluminum channel 
>          magnets: ~4x19x25mm ( Radio Shack) 
>          arranged 5 long and 4 wide for each rail. with a 1/8x1"
>          (almost 4x24x235mm) wide steel backing. And thin plywood and
>          cardboard for the base. 
>
>     The images and AVI's are here so you can see how big they are.  
>
>http:/oscar.clubelite.com:8888/smot
>if that doesn't work
>http://205.152.8.132:8888/smot
>http:/205.152.8.132:8888/smot/images
>
>Greg what's next?
>Can I make a curved one now :)
>
>Ben
>ben@clubelite.com
>
>
>
>
>######################
># Ben Tammetta       #
># ben@clubelite.com  # 
>######################
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 13:44:45 1997
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Subject: Re: flexible strip magnet
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WARNING:  The flexible strip magnets are TOTALLY unsuitable for Simple OU
toy.  They are polarized with south and north poles ON THE SAME SIDE. (ie.
SNSNSNSNSNSN  like this...).  They are used to hold objects down and this
pole configuration is much more efficient than one pole on one side and an
opposite pole on another side of the strip.  Many of the sheet magnets have
up to 10 poles per square inch !!!

The flexible magnets are also very weak.  Compare in the chart below:



Material  Grade  Demagnet  Curie  BH-Strength

NdFeB     g39 -  21,300    150    40
SmCo	    g26 -  10,000    300    26
AlNiCo    g05 -     640    540     5.5
Ceramic   g08 -   3,200    300     3.5      (BaFe2O3  or  SrFe2O3)
Flexible  g01 -   1,300    100     0.6


Grade = Material quality grade (alloy type ie. ALNICO 5)
Demagnet = Demagnetizing force in Oersteds
Curie = Curie Temperature in Degrees Celsius
BH-Strength = Maximum Energy Product in Mega Gauss Oersteds (MGO)


The above clearly shows that AlNiCo is THE EASIEST to demagnetize.  However
AlNiCo has the highest Curie temperature of them all - 540degC. The
Neodymium (NdFeB) magnets are the strongest (ie. they have the highest
energy product).  Flexible magnets are the weakest.





At 01:10 PM 5/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Hello:
>
>I'm  new to the list and at first I didnt understand what was going on, 
>but Im starting to catch up. I want to try to build a smot for myself, 
>but I have a question... 
>
>I found a flexible strip magnet of 9.5 x 3.0 mm section and can be cut 
>to any length. It cost only 10 pesos (1.25 USD)/meter in the local hardware 
>store.
>
>Can this be use to build the smot? 
>
>Thanks
> ____                     _ __
>|  _ \ __ _ ___  ___ __ _| /_/_ __
>| |_) / _` / __|/ __/ _` | | | '_ \
>|  __/ (_| \__ \ (_| (_| | | | | | |
>|_|   \__,_|___/\___\__,_|_|_|_| |_|
>Arturo Pascalin  <pascalin@albec.net.mx>
>< http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2508 >
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 22:20:24 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:18:46 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970529011843_-1431474431@emout12.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: LINKED SMOTs : TEST PASSED
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Hi All,

I have tested SUCCESSFULLY two linked SMOTs, its work very well but the
adjustement must be very accurate.

The disruption gap between the magnetic potential ( in the null zone ) and
the potential energy of gravity for regauging the system ( T.Bearden theory)
must be adjusted precisely. ( look at my picture )

As said Grag Watson : " The height of the magnets MUST be less than the lift
otherwise you will not be able to get the ramps to link. "

I have linked two SMOTs ( V 1.02 ) devices, each SMOT is composed of :

- 2 Magnetic RAMPS :

Each ramp : 15 magnets in 3 layers of 5 magnets,
    Ceramic Magnets( ferrite ) : 25 x 40 x 10 mm
    A wide steel backing : 25 x 200 x 4 mm
    25 mm steel ball
    20 x 20 mm aluminum U channel
Plywood and cardboard for the base

Magnetic ramps spec :
    Input gauge : 70 mm
    Output gauge : 58 mm
    Height of slope : 25 mm
    Length : 90 mm (slope) + 20 mm ( entrance )

You will find all pictures and videos in my web site at :

      http://members.aol.com/overunity3/html/s102jln.htm

We are on the way of Overunity.....

SMOTy yours,

Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 14:00:49 1997
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Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:56:42 -0700
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:02:32 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2@november
To: tammetta@mindspring.com
cc: freenrg-L@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 1 ramp works, 2 don't,  IT WORKS NOW!
In-Reply-To: <19970528045437449.AAA344@jumanji>
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On Wed, 28 May 1997, Ben Tammetta wrote:
> > > I got all my parts today and spent a lot of time building and
> > > playing with my SMOT.   My parts match Gregs pretty closely. 12mm
***> > > ball, 12mm aluminum channel magnets: ~4x19x25mm  ( RadioShack)
> > > arranged 5 long and 4 wide for each rail. with a 1/8x1" (almost
> > >  4x24mm) wide steel backing.   And thin plywood and cardboard for
Ben,
  are these the radio shack 4x19x25mm Magnets Radio Shack sells 
"with a little ~5mm hole in the center" (i think they are designed 
for 'chokes' in electrical circuts. IF THESE WORK, then I'll get 40 
of them for the 4 (upcoming linkable ramps)..
  didn't know if they were 'strong' enough however, as I have some small
'bar/tube' magnetics that are MUCH stronger.. appears you got the 
radio shack "Chokers" working OK!  do you have 12mm+/- rise(lift)>?
Thanks

se
------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------
-=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150
ekwall2@diac.com                          wk.1.800.798.1100
ekwall2@freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 14:19:33 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:21:40 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2@november
To: tammetta@mindspring.com
cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: 2 ramp SMOT works...webpage
In-Reply-To: <19970528050603235.AAA323@jumanji>
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On Wed, 28 May 1997, Ben Tammetta wrote:

>      PARTS:
> 
>           19mm ball from a PC Mouse, 12mm aluminum channel 
>           magnets: ~4x19x25mm ( Radio Shack) 
--------->  arranged 5 long and 4 wide for each rail. with a 1/8x1"
>           (almost 4x24x235mm) wide steel backing. And thin plywood and
>           cardboard for the base. 

well, i bought 40 Radio Shack mags, but are you saying 5x4="20" per 
side (or 40!per ramp)(?) so i'll/you will need 160 for 4 ramps..
BACK to the store (if so,) don't know if they had that many left in the
box though (sigh).. :(   ALSO, how do you get "4wide" 4*19mm or US decimal
"'s = ~3" to fit on a 1" wide metal strap (overlapping and hanging over?).

thanks
se

------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------
-=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150
ekwall2@diac.com                          wk.1.800.798.1100
ekwall2@freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 15:17:14 1997
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Message-Id: <199705282215.PAA25304@mx2.eskimo.com>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <tammetta@terax.clubelite.com>
From: "Ben Tammetta" <tammetta@mindspring.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:13:25 +0000
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Subject: Re: 2 ramp SMOT works...webpage
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Hi,

> >      PARTS:
> > 
> >           19mm ball from a PC Mouse, 12mm aluminum channel 
> >           magnets: ~4x19x25mm ( Radio Shack) 
> --------->  arranged 5 long and 4 wide for each rail. with a 1/8x1"
> >           (almost 4x24x235mm) wide steel backing. And thin plywood and
> >           cardboard for the base. 
> 
> well, i bought 40 Radio Shack mags, but are you saying 5x4="20" per 
> side (or 40!per ramp)(?) so i'll/you will need 160 for 4 ramps..
YES

There a chance you can shorten it to 4x4. But i have not tried it. I'd play it
safe and build a 5x4 one.

> box though (sigh).. :(   ALSO, how do you get "4wide" 4*19mm or US decimal
> "'s = ~3" to fit on a 1" wide metal strap (overlapping and hanging over?).

The magnets are in english units... I just measured it in mm's  to 
make things easier.  instead of 1/8"X3/4"X1".  mm's scale much easier.
I wish the US would get on the metric system.

The magnets are laid down longwais.... not up and down.
not 1" high... 3/4" high. or 19mm high... measure in mm's

> thanks
welcome
Ben
 
############################
# Ben Tammetta             #
# ben@interactive.ibm.com  #
############################

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 15:34:56 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:38:32 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2@november
To: Arturo Pascalin <pascalin@albec.net.mx>
cc: freenrg-L@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: flexible strip magnet
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970528122209.277f49f8@albec.net.mx>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.3.95.970528162231.20510L-100000@november>
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On Wed, 28 May 1997, Arturo Pascalin wrote:
> 
> I'm  new to the list and at first I didnt understand what was going on, 
> but Im starting to catch up. I want to try to build a smot for myself, 
> but I have a question... 
> I found a flexible strip magnet of 9.5 x 3.0 mm section and can be cut 
> to any length. It cost only 10 pesos (1.25 USD)/meter in the local hardware 
> store.
> Can this be use to build the smot? 
> Thanks
> < http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2508 >

Arturo,
  I don't think so, hopefully others will reply to you, but the group
seems to say that the 'flexable 'strip' magnetics' are lined up
molecularly end to end as in nsnsnsnsnsnsnsnsnsns ALL the way through the
strip.  SMOT1 needs the "WIDE FACE" facing the ball to be either North or
South... if square or round or flat.. the N/S MUST face out to the ball
track and not END to END!  (hence the super-Glue or tape .. as they will
try to 'jump around and realign.  Radio Shack has small 'Choke' type
magnets for $0.32 US each  (appears to take 10 - 40 per section depending
on who's setup you follow.. when in doubt ASK GREG:  He's the
general/LEADER.. (i'm using radio shack until i can get his spec'd mags.)
  -----------------
Imagine that the magnets are COINS, 'Heads'=North Polarity, while
'Tails'=South Polarity... the Coins(mags) will be glued/fastened ALL HEADS
OUT on one(1) side of the ramp & ALL TAILS OUT facing on the other side,
the ball flies up the middle BETWEEN the row of coins/MAGNETS.

       -   +
      -     +
     -       +
    -         +
tails         heads(+)
        o <-----  BALL goes UP!

se
------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------
-=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150
ekwall2@diac.com                          wk.1.800.798.1100
ekwall2@freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 15:45:09 1997
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Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:37:25 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <338CB2F4.3022@worldonline.nl>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:34:28 +0200
From: Ronald de Mol <catware@worldonline.nl>
Organization: World Online
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CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Magnetic OU: Discussion
References: <970528132211_-1999881547@emout16.mail.aol.com> <338C8A42.2331@worldonline.nl>
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Puthoff@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/23/97 9:16:05 AM, Greg Watson asked for
> clarification of what I wrote:
>
> Hal: << Magnetic field energy is decreased as object moves into
> and quenches part of the field distribution; >>
>
> Greg: <<Quenches part of the field?  I don't understand this Hal.
> If the object is a soft ferromagnetic material, the field energy
> increases due to the additive action of the soft aligning domains
> in the ferrite.>>
>
> Actually, it is the opposite.  When the domains align, the little,
> say, south poles are attracted to the external applied, say, north pole,
> and the little north poles are repelled.  Therefore, the alignment of
> domains within the material serve to cancel out (weaken) locally the
> magnetic field that would have otherwise been there.  The overall result
> is that the field energy has been reduced, this energy now going into
> moving the ball; i.e., field energy is transformed into kinetic energy.
>
> Hal

Hi Hal,

My book 'repertorium der natuurkunde' says:

"magnetic property of the matter.
---------------------------------
In the general a magnetic field is affected through the presence
of matter in it's field. This matter becomes more or less magnatized
and the hereof propagating induction lines are add by the orginal
field. With the most materials this influence comes down on a merely
adding (paramagnetism) or weakening (diamagnetism) of the magnetic field.
There are nevertheless some materials, the so called ferromagnetic
materials, which when put in a magnetic field, this field localy
considerable strengthen (amplifies)."

This text is dutch orginal, so here is the orginal text also:

"Magnetische eigenschappen van de materie:
------------------------------------------
in het algemeen wordt een magnetisch veld beinvloed door de aanwezigheid
van materie in dit veld. Deze materie wordt meer of minder gemagnetiseerd
en de hieruit voortspruitende inductielijnen voegen zich bij het
oorspronkelijke veld. Bij de meeste stoffen komt deze beinvloeding neer
op een slechts geringe versterking (paramagnetisme) of verzwakking
(diamagnetisme) van het magnetische veld. Er zijn echter enkele stoffen,
de zogenaamde ferromagnetische materialen die, in een magnetisch veld
gebracht, dit veld plaatselijk aanzienlijk versterken."

This is also confirmed by the Quickfield simulation gifs.

P.S.: Sorry if this msg appears twice, my outbox did strange...

--
Ronald.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 15:45:40 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:40:50 +0200
From: Ronald de Mol <catware@worldonline.nl>
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References: <970528132211_-1999881547@emout16.mail.aol.com>
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Puthoff@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 5/23/97 9:16:05 AM, Greg Watson asked for
> clarification of what I wrote:
> 
> Hal: << Magnetic field energy is decreased as object moves into
> and quenches part of the field distribution; >>
> 
> Greg: <<Quenches part of the field?  I don't understand this Hal.
> If the object is a soft ferromagnetic material, the field energy
> increases due to the additive action of the soft aligning domains
> in the ferrite.>>
> 
> Actually, it is the opposite.  When the domains align, the little,
> say, south poles are attracted to the external applied, say, north pole,
> and the little north poles are repelled.  Therefore, the alignment of
> domains within the material serve to cancel out (weaken) locally the
> magnetic field that would have otherwise been there.  The overall result
> is that the field energy has been reduced, this energy now going into
> moving the ball; i.e., field energy is transformed into kinetic energy.
> 
> Hal

Hi Hal,

My book 'repertorium der natuurkunde' says:

"magnetic property of the matter.
---------------------------------
In the general a magnetic field is affected through the presence
of matter in it's field. This matter becomes more or less magnatized
and the hereof propagating induction lines are add by the orginal
field. With the most material this influence comes down on a merely
adding (paramagnetism) or weakening (diamagnetism) of the magnetic field.
There are nevertheless some materials, the so called ferromagnetic
materials, which put in a magnetic field this field localy considerable
strengthen (amplifies)."

This text is dutch orginal, so here is the orginal text also:

"Magnetische eigenschappen van de materie:
------------------------------------------
in het algemeen wordt een magnetisch veld beinvloed door de aanwezigheid
van materie in dit veld. Deze materie wordt meer of minder gemagnetiseerd
en de hieruit voortspruitende inductielijnen voegen zich bij het
oorspronkelijke veld. Bij de meeste stoffen komt deze beinvloeding neer
op een slechts geringe versterking (paramagnetisme) of verzwakking
(diamagnetisme) van het magnetische veld. Er zijn echter enkele stoffen,
de zogenaamde ferromagnetische materialen die, in een magnetisch veld
gebracht, dit veld plaatselijk aanzienlijk versterken."

This is also confirmed by the Quickfield simulation gifs.

--
Ronald.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 16:00:01 1997
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Message-ID: <338CB705.5021@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:21:49 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: SMOT Phase 2
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------6E65D05C22
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi All,

Attached are some suggested SMOT ramp mods to make linking easier.  I
guess that means we have started Phase 2.  Some of you are really going
fast.  Slow down and HELP the others, spread your experiences around. 
Lets get dozens if not hundreds BUILDING and PLAYING with these SMOT
ramps.

In Phase 2 there are several goals that I would ask ALL of you to
achieve :

  1) Link 4 SMOT ramps in a straignt line.

  2) Lift each suceeding ramp several mm above the preceeding ramp and
achieve a final lift twice the lift in the first ramp.  For links based
on the plans, thats a 24mm final lift height.

  3) Demonstrate 8-10 ball in transit through the linked ramps.

  4) Achieve a ball roll away with the lifted linked ramps.  This is the
first REAL proof of OU!

This may seem a difficult task, but it can be done!  You will need to
develope good skills in ramp adjustemnts and ramp linking.  After a
while, you will develop a sixth sense of how to adjust your ramps.  You
will KNOW what will happen if you do this or that.

Meanwhile, theory guys (and gals), if you don't build ramps, think about
how to explain this.  Its real, its on the net and it needs to be
explained.

As we are now moving into real interesting territory now, I ask ALL of
you (Builders and Thinkers) to be as open as I have been with you.  If
you REALLY want to change the world, we ALL must be a part of this.

And as to you fence sitters, START BUILDING!

As I have been asked by many .... many people for kits, I have done some
checking and have come up with the following :


 SMOT PHASE 2 kit
 
  4 x SMOT ramps, including ALL components and a manual!

    4 x Base assy,
   16 x Straignt pins,
    4 x Polished Alum "U" channels,
    8 x 12mm Steel balls,
    8 x Magnet arrays,
    1 x Instruction manual,
    1 x Signed Certificate of Authenticity and a picture of me with the
linked ramps.

  Air mailed to anywhere on the planet.

  Cost : $110 US (Money orders please)

  To :

  Greg Watson,
  8 Brabham Grove,
  Aberfoyle Park, 5159,
  South Australia,
  Australia.

  Your SMOT ramp kit will be posted with-in 24 hours of receiving your
money.


Best Regards,
 Greg

--------------6E65D05C22
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
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RuREVuRFNt2AAAA7
--------------6E65D05C22--


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 16:06:26 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA22297; Wed, 28 May 1997 14:59:34 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:59:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:56:49 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970528175632_-730957027@emout20.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
cc: gwatson@microtronics.com.au, harti@bbtt.de
Subject: LINKED SMOTs : TEST PASSED
Resent-Message-ID: <"lV0EZ1.0.DS5.0hAZp"@mx2>
Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Hi All,

I have tested SUCCESSFULLY two linked SMOTs, its work very well but the
adjustement must be very accurate.

The disruption gap between the magnetic potential ( in the null zone ) and
the potential energy of gravity for regauging the system ( T.Bearden theory)
must be adjusted precisely. ( look at my picture )

As said Grag Watson : " The height of the magnets MUST be less than the lift
otherwise you will not be able to get the ramps to link. "

I have linked two SMOTs ( V 1.02 ) devices, each SMOT is composed of :

- 2 Magnetic RAMPS :

Each ramp : 15 magnets in 3 layers of 5 magnets,
    Ceramic Magnets( ferrite ) : 25 x 40 x 10 mm
    A wide steel backing : 25 x 200 x 4 mm
    25 mm steel ball
    20 x 20 mm aluminum U channel
Plywood and cardboard for the base

Magnetic ramps spec :
    Input gauge : 70 mm
    Output gauge : 58 mm
    Height of slope : 25 mm
    Length : 90 mm (slope) + 20 mm ( entrance )

You will find all pictures and videos in my web site at :

      http://members.aol.com/overunity3/html/s102jln.htm

We are on the way of Overunity.....

SMOTy yours,

Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 16:26:28 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA21920; Wed, 28 May 1997 16:25:14 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:25:14 -0700
Message-ID: <338CBE6C.5DC8@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:53:24 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
CC: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: straight SMOT ramps OU?
References: <l03102802afb228d07d81@[207.147.196.49]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Vorts -
> 
> Wow man, like, I just had a *heavy* SMOT flash...
> 
> You have one straight ramp. Ball drops out to the starting level, but
> sticks back against the drop rail with a certain amount of force at an
> obviously lower magnetic potential than at the start. We are not very
> impressed. You link two ramps. Ball ends up stuck at the end with the same
> amount of force. Link three, then four ramps. Ball ends up stuck at the end
> with the same amount of force. Oh! I see now - you could just keep on
> linking and linking, and the ball sticks back with the *same* amount of
> force at the final ramp - no matter how many ramps there are! Oh, I'm sure
> there's a tiny cumulative effect for a force increase from more ramps
> behind it, 

Not that I have seen,

> but... If it were a no-win game, you'd have 4 times the force
> after 4 ramps. But no matter how much friction and eddy currents and air
> resistance is met, clackity clack, ramp after ramp, many feet away, you end
> up with essentially the same back force. At some point, that back force
> obviously isn't enough to account for all the energy spent getting the ball
> to that point through all the ramps and losses. One ramp, maybe not. But
> several...
> 
> If you can link ramps (I saw Ben Tammetta's AVI - nice job, Ben), and the
> back force at the end doesn't grow substantially with each ramp, (and the
> magnets don't die), then Greg's gizmo *has* to be OU!
> 
> Everybody knew this already, right?
> 
>  - 99th Monkey,
> Honolulu HI

Hi Rick,

Its good when the light turns on.

Good BUILDING and TESTING to you.

Awaiting your SMOT Phase 2 results.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 16:35:16 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA23689; Wed, 28 May 1997 16:31:34 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:31:34 -0700
Message-ID: <338CBFE9.C00@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:59:45 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
CC: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT QField Sims
References: <199705281610.JAA01538@norway.it.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Michael Randall wrote:
> 
> Hi Greg,
> 
> Yes I agree that you spent a LOT of time and energy on the SMOT design to
> make it work and then to make it easy for duplication by others. We all
> thank you for sharing this information. As people successfully duplicate the
> closing the loop SMOT, maybe then we figure out how to power homes with this
> technology.
> 
> The Qfield simms are a great way to explain what is happening and maybe even
> answer where the energy is coming from. Any info on the return fields and
> why they flow in the opposite direction?

Its what magnets do.  The flux returns to the other pole.
 
> Did you ever do a sim with the ball hitting the null field at the start and
> end of the ramp? I would be interested in seeing them.

Will do a series and post to the web sites.

> Thanks again,
> Michael

Hi Michael,

Remember in looking at the sims that a quick mag field drop off is to
the ball, like hitting a brick wall.

Part of the SMOT secret is the way the entry field strength increase is
very sharp and the exit is very smooth and slow.

Hard entry, soft exit.


Best Regards and good testing,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 16:38:31 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id QAA25591; Wed, 28 May 1997 16:36:28 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:36:28 -0700
Message-ID: <338CC10D.22E@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:04:37 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: OU "toy"
References: <199705281924_MC2-1775-50E5@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Nicholas Palmer wrote:
> 
> Hi Greg, just to let you know I'm following the excitement on Vortex. I am
> asking around for British suppliers of suitable magnets and, if they can be
> found, then I will attempt a replication.
>         BTW, I cannot seem to see the embedded GIFS etc in your messages -
> they just stay in ASCII characters - I have tried reading the messages with
> Netscape 2.0 and Wincim 3.0 - any suggestions? I assume they are similar to
> those on Jean Louis' site? (which I have seen)
> 
>                          Nick -  Group Coordinator, Jersey FoE

Hi Nick,

I use Netscape 3.0 Gold and Win95.  I don't use Mine.  The gifs and Jpes
are sent as attachments.  More than that I can't say.  Anyone else out
there that can help???


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 18:09:35 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA12719; Wed, 28 May 1997 18:06:48 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:06:48 -0700
From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705290106.VAA01876@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: Direct energy transfer with SMOT
To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com (science)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:06:31 -0400 (EDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
Content-Type: text
Resent-Message-ID: <"2u2FK1.0.B63.bQDZp"@mx1>
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Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Hey, if you linked hundreds of thousends of these together and made a chain
around the world, and linked the end to the start, that would be a direct
OU device.  It would run around the planet forever.  In that case, I would
say it was powered by the gravity of the earth, though I'm not sure how. 
Would a SMOT run in space?

Andrew


-- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 18:17:24 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA16432; Wed, 28 May 1997 18:16:26 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:16:26 -0700
Message-ID: <01BC6B92.E74B4BC0@chiltepine.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: "'vortex-l@eskimo.com'" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: OU "toy" (about encoded files)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:07:44 -0700
Encoding: 46 TEXT
Resent-Message-ID: <"QpQzF2.0.U04.cZDZp"@mx1>
Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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For encoded files that don't get decoded automatically, I use WINCODE, 
which will encode/decode lots of stuff. It's a Windows program, hope that 
works for you.
I looked it up at http://WWW.shareware.com/   and came up with the 
following FTP address for the file:
ftp://ftp.simtel.net/pub/simtelnet/win3/encode/wc273r16.zip

Dan Quickert
dequickert@ucdavis.edu
916-756-0575

>----------
>From: 	Greg Watson
>Sent: 	Wednesday, May 28, 1997 4:34 PM
>To: 	freenrg-l@eskimo.com
>Cc: 	vortex-l@eskimo.com
>Subject: 	Re: OU "toy"
>
>Nicholas Palmer wrote:
>>
>> Hi Greg, just to let you know I'm following the excitement on Vortex. I 
am
>> asking around for British suppliers of suitable magnets and, if they can 
be
>> found, then I will attempt a replication.
>>         BTW, I cannot seem to see the embedded GIFS etc in your messages 
-
>> they just stay in ASCII characters - I have tried reading the messages 
with
>> Netscape 2.0 and Wincim 3.0 - any suggestions? I assume they are similar 
to
>> those on Jean Louis' site? (which I have seen)
>>
>>                          Nick -  Group Coordinator, Jersey FoE
>
>Hi Nick,
>
>I use Netscape 3.0 Gold and Win95.  I don't use Mine.  The gifs and Jpes
>are sent as attachments.  More than that I can't say.  Anyone else out
>there that can help???
>
>
>Best Regards,
> Greg



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 18:41:43 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA27063; Wed, 28 May 1997 18:40:03 -0700 (PDT)
Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:40:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: HLafonte@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:38:24 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970528213709_1107782466@emout03.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: BULLETIN !!! BULLETIN!!!   IT WORKS OTHER WAYS ALSO!!!
Resent-Message-ID: <"flcBC1.0.mc6.mvDZp"@mx2>
Resent-From: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Reply-To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Greg, 
    You are not going to believe what I am about to tell you! I was thinking
about how long it would take me to round up all the parts for your fixture,
and then I saw on the list the mention of the kit. Well I got to thinking how
long It would take in the mail and I am the kind of person who likes to do
things now or sooner. I got to looking in my " junk box" from old experments,
and found two one inch long by 7/ 8 " diameter, neodymium-iron-boron magnets
that I had use to play with about a year ago to see if the magnetic switches
I had read about, worked. I had two soft steel bars 2 and one half inches
long by one half inch thick by one inch wide. I put the magnet on the back of
one of the one inch wide sides at the middle of the bars length. I did the
same with the other bar. Then I placed the two on my table in a v shape as
you do. Then I got a one and one half inch steel ball I had given to my
daughter I found in a machine shop years ago, and put it in the center groove
of a plastic foot ruler my daughter had. I put the ruller between the two
bars and elevated the end one eight inch above the table top. I checked the
ramp without the magnets to make sure the ball rolled down to prove it was a
slope. It rolled down very fast. I then put the magnets back with nothing
holding them in place, just their weight holding them down. I rolled the
magnet up the ramp to about one half inch from the v and when I felt the
slighest pull from the bars I let it go. The first time it stoped at the end
of the magnets and I noticed that the end of the ruler was past the magnets.
I moved it to just past the end of the magnets and the second time it rolled
up the ramp from a dead stop to the end of the ruller and fell off !!! I want
to put a video on the net and pictures of it. How do I go about it ? I have
never done any of that before. It works every time and I want to show every
one another way of doing what you have discovered. I am so excited I can
hardly type, this is more fun than I've had in years! How do I get It on the
net in video?
Thanks, Butch LaFonte

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 18:55:13 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:54:22 -0700
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From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
Subject: t
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t

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 19:26:32 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id TAA32288; Wed, 28 May 1997 19:25:06 -0700
Resent-Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:25:06 -0700
Message-ID: <338CE887.58FA@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:53:03 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: SMOT Kits,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Resent-Message-ID: <"y927K1.0.Iu7.0aEZp"@mx1>
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Hi All,

Sorry for the confusion.  I am too used to dealing in US Dollars.

The pricing is $150 Aust Dollars via an International Bank Cheque.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 19:30:51 1997
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Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:28:49 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
X-Sender: ekwall2@november
To: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
cc: science <freenrg-L@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Direct energy transfer with SMOT
In-Reply-To: <199705290106.VAA01876@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
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On Wed, 28 May 1997, Science wig. sig. wrote:
> 
> Hey, if you linked hundreds of thousends of these together and made a chain
> around the world, and linked the end to the start, that would be a direct
> OU device.  It would run around the planet forever.  In that case, I would
> say it was powered by the gravity of the earth, though I'm not sure how. 
> Would a SMOT run in space?  <--duh yep!
> Andrew
> 
> 
When it comes by here (Denver) I could put a note on it to you and you
could get it when it passes by -eh? (smiles) like the note on the pigeon
leg sans the pigeon / food /& coops/cages.... (still smiling)..
-- i'm going on to the Rotary loop to power my bike, then to the back yard
power the house version.. --    :)

se

------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------
-=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150
ekwall2@diac.com                          wk.1.800.798.1100
ekwall2@freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 20:09:19 1997
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From: HLafonte@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:00:03 -0400 (EDT)
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Subject: correction on ball dia.
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Greg,
 Steel ball dia. is 1 and 1/4 " not 1 and 1/2", I was very excited, sorry.
Butch

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 21:33:53 1997
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From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Subject: Re: correction on ball dia. MINE WORKS
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On Wed, 28 May 1997 HLafonte@aol.com wrote:
> Greg,
>  Steel ball dia. is 1 and 1/4 " not 1 and 1/2", I was very excited, sorry.
> Butch
> 
Finally got enough little magnets - COUNT ME IN on WORKING SMOT1! -
I only have 3 Balls :) and some Buckshot and BB's :( laying around.
ALL THREE BALLS WORK 18mm/20mm(mouse type ball)/25mm.
or in decimal/US 3/4"/ 7/8" /15/16"(auto wheel bearing).
They ALL Accelerate and jump! out of the raised end,.. to which my wife
said the same thing as Gregs' wife " well, of course the do silly."
  I don't think she grasps just how much FASTER the EXIT (zoom) is to the
INPUT (null) and its implications....   THIS IS GREAT GOING ON TO SMOT2!
--------------------------
Oh, while waiting on exact parts (and I'm glad Greg is selling kits! WE
ALL HIM ANYWAY HERE -eh?), I wanted to let some of you know that the RADIO
SHACK part #64-1879 'Choke magnets' WORK OK!  Rather than the 'V' entry
exit, I set the side metal bars parallel and STACKED as someone mentioned
earlier today. 1-2-3-4 DEEP  (per side) North on one side SOUTH on the
other.. noted N/N or S/S not near as FORCEFUL(zoomable)...
Looking forward to CLOSE the LOOP... wish original plans were BIGGER
though.  This will make one hell of a MUFFLED RAIL GUN!!!  I hope all this
international "Brain-Power" can get us a Rotory-in-a-can so i can take it
up camping.


se

------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------
-=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150
ekwall2@diac.com                          wk.1.800.798.1100
ekwall2@freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed May 28 22:24:22 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:23:04 -0400 (EDT)
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Sorry for this ping test...

JLN

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 00:01:42 1997
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ping test - sorry

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 00:03:46 1997
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Message-ID: <338D2926.2253@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:28:46 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Michael Randall wrote:
> 
> Hi Greg,
> 
> Great idea to sell kits! Though I am planning on building all four phases, I
> would be interested in buying your SMOT Phase 4, close the loop kit, if you
> plan on putting one together, to see how you built it.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Michael

With all the improvments happening, I have modified the Phases and will
show how to close the loop in Phase 3 with the improved ramps.  But
others may be there before me!

Details of the improvments will be posted in the next day or so.

The improved ramps will be in the kits.

The kits are very well made.  
Base of dark plexi-glass.  
Quite presentable for the "Exec Desk".
Strong enough for the lab.
Overall a well designed and built set of SMOT ramps.
Each ramp will be numbered, dated and signed by me.

I must try and get some sleep, sometime.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 00:14:49 1997
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Hi Greg,

Well the magnets (3/8"x1/4"x7/8", source posted 5/25) arrived today and I
built a ramp using your design info converted into english dimensions. And
it works! Due to the thicker dimension of the magnets, the assay magnetic
field was too strong for 1/2" ball but worked great for the 5/8" steel ball. 

Next planning on Phase II, the four ramp SMOT. Glad to hear your offering
kits! It will help those that can't find all of the parts and will be a real
time saver without the need in experimenting with different componets.

Best Regards,
Michael Randall

BTW, if anyone is having any problem with their unit or would like more info
on my unit, feel free to ask me any question. I don't have access to
computer video or scanning equipment just yet. The video's that others have
done for their units says it all already!


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 00:28:29 1997
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Martin Sevior wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 28 May 1997, Barry Merriman wrote:
> >
> > Get a grip. man. Next thing you know, you'll have your own
> > theory of Anti-Gravity :-).
> >
> Can't help it. This SMOT thing is too much fun not to enjoy. Why can't
> professionals have fun too!
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Meanwhile, I've been thinking about whether a permanent magnet is
> in a lower energy state magnetized or unmagnetized and if one can make an
> estimate of how much energy is stored in a ferromagnet.
> 
> My answer is that a magnetized permanent magnet is in a state of higher
> energy than unmagnetized. Here is my estimate of its energy.
> 
> The energy stored in a magnetic field is E= 0.5*V*B**2/mu

That works fine for a electromagnet's field, where we convert the input
current flow into the coils mag field.

In the same electromagnet, changes in the mag field caused by other
moving magnetic sources are reflected into the coil's current and the
coil's current alters to keep the coil's mag field constant.

Using the same logic, its not the existing field thats of interest, but
like the moving electrons in the wire of the coil, its what happening to
the moving electrons in the domains / iron atoms that are required to
supply any lost energy from the PM's field.  
Over to Hal and ZPE at this point.

> Where V = volume in meters cubed, B= Magnetic field intensity (in Tesla)
> and mu is the magnetic permeability of the material containing the magnetic
> field.
> 
> Typically for the sized magnets used by Greg Watson and everyone else on
> SMOT bandwagon we can take, B = 0.1 tesla, V, Volume =
> 0.1*0.1*0.1 = 0.001 meters cubed and mu = 4*pi*10**-7 for free space.
> 
> In free space the Energy = 0.5*(0.1)**5/(4*3.14159*10**-7) = 4 Joules.
> 
> Inside the magnet mu is about 10,000 times greater than free space so the
> energy there is negligable.
> 
> So my rough guess is that there is 4 Joules of energy in a typical
> SMOT setup.
> 
> How long would it take to consume this energy?

Its not the energy in the field that's the concern.  Its where this
energy is coming from and WHY it stays (like a EM coil's field)
constant.  And I am NOT talking about the energy necessary to make the
magnet or align the domains.

> Greg Watson says that 4 linked ramps can lift a 12 mm ball, 12 mm in height.

One ramp can do that.  I have achieved 27mm as a max and still get
release.  Others have achieved over 50mm.

> A 12 mm diameter ball weighs about 5 grams so the gravitational energy is:
> 
> E = mgh = 0.005*9.8*0.12 = 0.006 Joules.
> 
> Given that we have 4 Joules of energy, that means our typical 4 ramp
> SMOT has a lifetime of about 680 lifts to 12 mm in height. After that we have
> to worry about something else as a source of energy.

I have exceeded that figure by approx 5 times to date with SMOT ramp
testing.  The RMOD was much .... much more.

> That's quite a lot of runs, maybe that's all that's going on here. The effect
> would be a slow decrease in magnetic field strength with use. Eventually the
> effect would cease.

I don't think you really believe that.  Don't tell me there is more than
one devil's advocate here!

Nothing like a good theory fight!.

And the winner of ROUND 1 is ????????

Where is Barry???????

> Martin Sevior

Hi Martin,

I have NEVER seen a magnet die by use.  Heavy external demag field, yes,
use within its B/H curve no.

I have looked for reduced flux in some of my oldest magnets.  No
measurable (hall effect device) flux reduction.  The magnets in the
original RMOD device ran for almost 4 days until I stopped (it wore out
physically).  It was those that I measured before and after.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 00:40:14 1997
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:45:49 -0600 (MDT)
From: Steve Ekwall <ekwall2@diac.com>
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To: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT Phase 2, 3, 4
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On Thu, 29 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote:

> I must try and get some sleep, sometime.
> Best Regards,
>  Greg

I think I mentioned that to you once before .... please DO take some time
off (Sleep) and let us catch up with smots in the raw...   YOU'VE EARNED
IT ALREADY.. we will BE here... waiting with bated breath.  AND we're
working like crazy to catch-up / jump over to new areas / and are trying
to do ALL that you did in less time!

 -------------------------
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
-------------------------
if you can't, I hope the 'fame' is what you first IMAGINED and is worth it
for you & yours!    -enjoy-

------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------
-=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150
ekwall2@diac.com                          wk.1.800.798.1100
ekwall2@freenet.scri.fsu.edu_________________1.303.293.2FAX

i could use the sleep too, but it's too much fun!!!!!!!

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 00:40:51 1997
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Chris Tinsley wrote:
> 
> Martin wrote to Terry:
> 
>  > In any case are you saying that starting at some initial height,
>  > the ball accelerates through the SMOT, and rolls away at the
>  > starting height? Can you make it roll away at a height above your
>  > starting point? If that's the case there is something very
>  > interesting going on with just one SMOT.
> 
> Actually, I think that even if the heights are the same on entry and
> exit, then we have an "apparent anomaly" since the magnetic potential
> is lower at the start point than after the roll-away.  The fact that
> Terry is now making it clear that he gets (a) extra height and (b)
> extra momentum as well as a lower magnetic potential - not to mention
> the overcoming of friction and all the rest of it - makes me think that
> ... er ... he should ... er ... double check everything ...

I did the first time I got a roll away.  But the device still worked and
when I reported I, all I got was Bull.hit.  Close the loop.  Muffled
laughter in the background.
 
> It is weird though, innit?  We are all very familiar with the old
> story - there's this guy who says he can make a machine which just
> goes and goes; then others try and theirs don't.  So, when this guy
> comes along and says his works, and we see people on just about every
> continent on the planet reporting strange goings-on ... well, I hope to
> see what happens here soon, but I know that even if I see a "Blanton
> one-ramp rollaway" then I won't believe it.  And I'll certainly be
> looking for any reason (good reason) to explain it away.

Explain it away?  You think its not real?  Why?  Do yo really believe we
KNOW everyting about everything.

In time, you all will realize I DON'T claim anything I can't prove.

Its not good for LONG TERM business.
 
> And if *I* can't cope with a "rollaway" - how will some people I could
> mention (but won't) handle it?  Apoplexy, I shouldn't wonder.

It took me several weeks to accept it.  I still have problems with it. 
An I am only a EE.  Would give most PHD's a severe headache and cause
them to go running to hold onto their research grant.

> By the way, IS there any good reason why a "one-ramp rollaway at the
> same level" should not be regarded as something to take seriously, even
> if there is no height gain?  I'm feeling a dichotomy here (ouch), in
> that half of me would like the security blanket of a *good* explanation
> and the other half wants to believe that it is over-unity.

I took it very seriously.  

Thats why we are here today.

> Chris

Hi Chris,

Interesting times, NO?


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 00:49:14 1997
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Steve Ekwall wrote:
> 
> Hey all vorts
>   just sitting here playing smot1 to smot2  linkage and have ART BELL the
> radio host (national?/international?) asking an old 'Ham radio' friend
> where the hell are the time travelers (IF there are time machines) - where
> are the UFO people (IF there are UFO's) -- and where are the o/u Over
> Unity machines if O/U is possible!   his guest mentioned he will 'soon be
> invited to see the CF updates/releases  -swears "it does work, but you
> can't get a kit, because it needs super-sensitive calorometers to detect
> the measurments and IF it runs 'dry' it might BLOW up!   (ohhhhh)...
> ----------------------------------------
> anyway, GREG , and SMOT'ters, ART said he "would 'Die' for even a little
> TOY
> to play with... anything to show that the potentional of of O/U, that he
> could play with"..... this might /ormight not be a GREAT exposure medium.
> He claims the largest night audiance of all the air-waves..
> --------------------------------------------
> presently however, he's guest is just now giving a way to 'make' a home
> Cold Fusion experiment @ home using "nickels in water" and passing current
> through it.   (says answers are a YEAR OUT for practical units/kits)
> -----------------------------------------------
> ps. he loved & promoted the levitron to a profitable endeavor.. Thoughts?
> 
> ============================================
> Greg: would a freeby Kit pay off here (in your plan of things/exposure)
>       or are we too soon??

If I present it personally!

> 
> ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------
> -=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150

Hi Steve,

Don't know Art Bell, but I would be interested in talking.

By the way, I am a very good public speaker who presents and debates
well.

Any talk show, lecture circuit offers?


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 00:48:53 1997
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Hi Greg,

Am I reading this correctly, that the kit can close-the-loop Phase 3 & 4? If
so, please hold a unit for me, my postal money order will be in the mail
tomorrow! 

Best Regards,
Michael Randall

At 04:28 PM 5/29/97 +0930, Greg Watson wrote:
>Michael Randall wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Greg,
>> 
>> Great idea to sell kits! Though I am planning on building all four phases, I
>> would be interested in buying your SMOT Phase 4, close the loop kit, if you
>> plan on putting one together, to see how you built it.
>> 
>> Best Regards,
>> Michael
>
>With all the improvments happening, I have modified the Phases and will
>show how to close the loop in Phase 3 with the improved ramps.  But
>others may be there before me!
>
>Details of the improvments will be posted in the next day or so.
>
>The improved ramps will be in the kits.
>
>The kits are very well made.  
>Base of dark plexi-glass.  
>Quite presentable for the "Exec Desk".
>Strong enough for the lab.
>Overall a well designed and built set of SMOT ramps.
>Each ramp will be numbered, dated and signed by me.
>
>I must try and get some sleep, sometime.
>
>
>Best Regards,
> Greg
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 00:51:04 1997
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Steve Ekwall wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 29 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote:
> 
> > I must try and get some sleep, sometime.
> > Best Regards,
> >  Greg
> 
> I think I mentioned that to you once before .... please DO take some time
> off (Sleep) and let us catch up with smots in the raw...   YOU'VE EARNED
> IT ALREADY.. we will BE here... waiting with bated breath.  AND we're
> working like crazy to catch-up / jump over to new areas / and are trying
> to do ALL that you did in less time!
> 
>  -------------------------
> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
> -------------------------
> if you can't, I hope the 'fame' is what you first IMAGINED and is worth it
> for you & yours!    -enjoy-
> 
> ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------
> -=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150

Hi Steve,

I am an old trooper at this stuff.

Built a Multi-million dollar business once before, then I semi-retired. 
Found out that is the challenge of making thing happen that keeps me a
very young 50.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 00:55:04 1997
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Michael Randall wrote:
> 
> Hi Greg,
> 
> Am I reading this correctly, that the kit can close-the-loop Phase 3 & 4? If
> so, please hold a unit for me, my postal money order will be in the mail
> tomorrow!
> 
> Best Regards,
> Michael Randall

Hi Michael,

Yes, the improved SMOT ramps in the kit will close.

Send International Bank Cheque in Aust dollars, not money orders.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 03:38:53 1997
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Another good and error-free measurement of the energy stored in a permanent
magnet is the measure of energy that is necessary to magnetize the
unmagnetized magnetic material.

The BaFe2O3 or SrFe2O3 ceramic magnet material is manufactured in an
UNmagnetized state.  Than a large sheet of this material is put inside of a
coil an a bank of capacitors is discharged through the coil and a diode.
The coil creates a magnetic pulse that has a higher intensity than the
magnetic material permeability, thus aligning the domains.  Later the large
sheet is cut to little pieces.

Sooo... by knowing the voltage in the capacitors powering the magnetizing
coil and the capacitance of the capacitors and the inductance and DC
resistance of the coil, it is easy to calculate HOW MUCH ENERGY IS EXPENDED
TO MAGNETIZE THE MAGNET.

The energy stored in a capacitor is 0.5CE^2. (so all you need is a
multimeter to get a very accurate estimate of the stored energy)

So if you charge the supply capacitors with 10 joules, you CAN be sure that
only maximum of 10 joules of energy went to creating (magnetizing) the
permanent magnet.

Of course if you do not have access to a virgin magnetic alloy, you can
always heat an already magnetized piece above the curie temperature, and
you will end up with non-magnetized piece.

For your reference I am including a list of the magnetizing/demagnetizing
force required for variety of the permanent magnet alloys.


Material  Grade  Demagnet  Curie  BH-Strength

NdFeB     g39 -  21,300    150    40
SmCo	    g26 -  10,000    300    26
AlNiCo    g05 -     640    540     5.5
Ceramic   g08 -   3,200    300     3.5      (BaFe2O3  or  SrFe2O3)
Flexible  g01 -   1,300    100     0.6


Grade = Material quality grade (alloy type ie. ALNICO 5)
Demagnet = Demagnetizing/Magnetizing force in Oersteds
Curie = Curie Temperature in Degrees Celsius
BH-Strength = Maximum Energy Product in Mega Gauss Oersteds (MGO)


The above clearly shows that AlNiCo is THE EASIEST to demagnetize.  However
AlNiCo has the highest Curie temperature of them all - 540degC. The
Neodymium (NdFeB) magnets are the strongest (ie. they have the highest
energy product).  Flexible magnets are the weakest.



At 04:43 PM 5/29/97 +1000, you wrote:
>The energy stored in a magnetic field is E= 0.5*V*B**2/mu
>
>Where V = volume in meters cubed, B= Magnetic field intensity (in Tesla)
>and mu is the magnetic permeability of the material containing the magnetic
>field.
>
>Typically for the sized magnets used by Greg Watson and everyone else on 
>SMOT bandwagon we can take, B = 0.1 tesla, V, Volume = 
>0.1*0.1*0.1 = 0.001 meters cubed and mu = 4*pi*10**-7 for free space.
>
>In free space the Energy = 0.5*(0.1)**5/(4*3.14159*10**-7) = 4 Joules.
>
>Inside the magnet mu is about 10,000 times greater than free space so the
>energy there is negligable. 
>
>So my rough guess is that there is 4 Joules of energy in a typical 
>SMOT setup.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 03:39:43 1997
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:37:39 +0100
From: Geoff Greaves <geoff@compcafe.co.uk>
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As it keeps appearing here I thought I should correct some information
about flexible magnetic strip. This is not necessarily polarized:

NSNSNSNSNSNSNSNSNSNSNSNSNS
NSNSNSNSNSNSNSNSNSNSNSNSNS
NSNSNSNSNSNSNSNSNSNSNSNSNS

but is commonly available that way in narrow to wide strips of thin
material, 1.5mm say, for those ubiquitous fridge magnets. Usually called
tape and supplied self-adhesive.

Thicker strip, 3-4mm say, of the sort found inside the seal around
fridge doors (those things with cartoon characters on) and usually about
10mm wide is available polarized through, N one side and S the other,
and I've also got some wacky strip from an old fridge polarized thus:

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

While the polarized-through would seem ideal for the SMOT it will only
have (typically) one third the strength (BH) of sintered ferrite which
is the material of Greg's magnets, I believe?. I doubt if even a
multi-layer sandwich would do the job but thinking about this makes me
wonder if at least one layer would help smooth out the field of the
multiple sintered ferrite bars. Of course, the 13mm magnets specified
undoubtedly started life as a long bar, and if purchasing from a magnet
supplier rather than a store it would be easy to get 104mm magnets.

I imagine Greg's response would be "Build a SMOT to my specification
first and then experiment all you can." but if you can't get the exact
parts straight away I guess the experimentation will come first!

Cheers, geoff

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 04:15:53 1997
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Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs
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A much more accurate estimate of the travel ling losses of the ball in the
SMOT, could be done empirically by weighing the ball and accelerating it to
a known velocity (i.e. by a sloped release ramp) and than measuring how far
the ball will travel on an absolutely level U channel, before it stops.

If you want to be more accurate, make several steps in the U channel to
simulate the ball being dropped onto a channel from above as it exits a
SMOT ramp and starts up another ramp.

The above experiment must be performed without magnets, and that means that
the eddy-current-breaking will not be accounted for...

This experiment also requires a very long U channel to measure the
"roll-out" distance before the ball completely stops.  If this is a
problem, bend the two ends of a U channel up so the ball will go back and
fro / up and down the bent ends like a pendulum.  Count how many times the
balls swings before coming to a full stop and you will now the friction,
air resistance, noise losses pretty exactly.

I would do it but I don't have enough U channel on hand.


P.S.

Could somebody please do this empirical measurement and report the results
to the list.  The quantity of mechanical losses will become a very
important issue very very soon, in estimating the energy output of the SMOT
and evaluating explanations presented by scientists like Barry.

Knowing the exact loss figure will also help to eliminate any faulty
explanations of the source of SMOT's energy.


THIS IS IMPORTANT !




At 01:45 AM 5/29/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote:

>Here. Allow me to take a shot at a mundane explantion,
>based on comments of Martin and Hal:
>
>Perhaps the energy that drives the ball in the closed
>loop mode is simply the energy removed from the magnetic
>field via the presence of the ball, which kills the field
>energy in its vicinity (refer to
>http://home.worldonline.nl/~catware/ld2.html
>for a picture of this effect; refer to plot of B).
>
>Lets figure: the available energy from killing the
>0.04 Tesla ambient field within a ~ 20 mm neighborhood of
>of the ball is (in MKS)
>
>dE = (B^2/(2 mu0)) * volume
>   ~ ((0.04)^2/(2* 10^-6) * (20 x 10^-3)^3
>   ~ 16 * 8/2 * 0.0001
>   ~ 0.005 Joules
>
>The system has this much free energy to work with once 
>the ball is in place. Now, let us count the losses:
>The dominant losses in a well built system will be friction
>and drag from the air:
>
>Drag:
>
>the power loss to drag is P_drag F.V, where F is the drag force,
>V the ball velocity.  The drag force is
>
>F = C (rho_air V^2)/2
>
>where C = drag coeff is about 20 for a sphere of that size moving
>through air at 0.01 m/sec (=> Reynolds number ~ 1), rho_air
>is the density of air ~ 1 kg/m^3, so
>
>F = 20 * 1 * 0.01^2 /2 = 0.001 Newtons
>
>and the power loss is
>
>P_drag = 10^-5 Watts
>
>If the velocity were 0.001 m/s, we woudl get instead
>C ~ 200 and 
>
>P_drag = 10^-6 Watts
>
>Friction:
>
>The power loss do to friction is due to the rolling fricition
>of the ball on the track: P_friction = F.V, where F is
>friction forc F = C W, W = wieght of ball, C = coeff of
>rolling friction. We have W ~ 10 gram = 0.01 kg. Coeff.
>of rolling friction is extremely small; I don't have any 
>precise numbers handy, but I would guess it is < 0.001,
>since coeff's of *sliding* friction can get down to 0.04 or
>so (teflon on steel). Thus
>
>P_friction < P_drag (probably << )
>
>in any case, and we can neglect it.
>
>Based on the available energy dE ~ 0.005 J, and the loss
>rate of P = 10^-5 W -- 10^-6 W, we would expect the thing to run
>for 500 -- 5000 seconds ~ 10 -- 100 minutes. 
>
>Greg said that in practice a version of his device ran for
>about 200 minutes before it stopped.
>
>Seems pretty reasonable to me. I imagine a test would be
>to position the ball *at rest* at the point of greatest 
>field cancellation (i.e. where B is strongest in the
>ball-free set up) and then let it go. At this point it can't
>pick up extra energy from additional field cancellation. 
>
>
>In any case, it should be clear from these comments and
>Martin's that there is ample energy available from
>minor alterations to the free space field (per
>above) and/or magnetization (per martin's comments)
>(Note a *1 part in 1000* reduction in magnetization would 
>give a few (~10) milli-Joules of energy, also enough to perform 
>as above) due to the perturbing presence of the ball in the system 
>are enough to "power" the device to run in "closed loop" mode for
>a couple hours---exactly what is observed. Any reason to
>think this is not what is occuring?
>
>-- 
>Barry Merriman
>Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program
>Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
>email: barry@math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 04:16:04 1997
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The energy calculation E = mgh = 0.005*9.8*0.12 = 0.006 Joules is not
applicable to SMOT because the ball is NOT lifted to 12mm, 24mm, 36mm,
48mm, etc... BUT it always returns to the same level after it exits the ramp.

Sooo... the only energy consumed is energy consumed by friction, air
resistance, U channel damping, noise, eddy currents, etc...

680 lifts to 12mm height would raise the ball to 8.16 meters (26.77 feet)
and THIS IS NOT HAPPENING WITH SMOT !!!



P.S.

Errors:

12mm = 0.012m    (not 0.12)
5 grams for a 12mm steel ball seems a little small for me.

>>> E = mgh = 0.005*9.8*0.12 = 0.006 Joules.

m = mass in kilograms
g = gravitational acceleration 9.8 meters/second^2
h = height in meters
E = energy in joules





At 04:43 PM 5/29/97 +1000, you wrote:

>How long would it take to consume this energy? (4 joules stored in the
magnetization of the magnets)
>
>Greg Watson says that 4 linked ramps can lift a 12 mm ball, 12 mm in height.
>A 12 mm diameter ball weighs about 5 grams so the gravitational energy is:
>
>E = mgh = 0.005*9.8*0.12 = 0.006 Joules.
>
>Given that we have 4 Joules of energy, that means our typical 4 ramp 
>SMOT has a lifetime of about 680 lifts to 12 mm in height. After that we
have 
>to worry about something else as a source of energy.
>
>That's quite a lot of runs, maybe that's all that's going on here. The effect
>would be a slow decrease in magnetic field strength with use. Eventually the
>effect would cease.
>
>Martin Sevior
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 04:22:18 1997
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Subject: SMOT err...
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Err...  It should have been:


>The coil creates a magnetic pulse that has a higher intensity than the
>magnetic material magnetizing/demagnetizing threshold (coercivity), thus
aligning the domains.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 05:43:17 1997
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:44:59 -0500 (CDT)
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Michael C Slivinski <sunbrite@mymail.net>
Subject: Re: Little round radio shack magnets
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Hello all, Jerry Decker (Jerry can you respond).

regarding the radio shack little round magnets. I was at a meeting
a couple years back and a fella had used the round magnets on edge
like you guys are, and each side was parraell. and they were just
one layer each side on a level service. And he was NOT using
any soft metal stip and in stead of a ball he used a discarded (thread
spool) and on each end he glued a radio shack magent. (no v groove here).
placed it on one end and it would shoot towards the other end and slow down, 
but never left the other end. Now Jerry Decker with the Keely page is
the man who I beleive made one also. Now this in a way seems more complex 
compared to the man gentleman who mentioned using his daughters ruler
and stell ball and couple magnets, but as they say... here is another
way to skin the cat... for the vegetarians... peel the banana???

anyway I am going to ask jerry to respond on his information, in fact
I beleive there is a drawing or plans on how to build one on the keely
data base. just thoughts here....

PS Jerry might not be able to respond as he is planning or has gone on
a recent vacation so maybe I can track it down if he doen't respond.

Mike Slivinski  sunbrite@mymail.net
http://www.myhomepage.net/~sunbrite/

God helps those, that help themselves... 
so they may help others! MCS

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 06:29:52 1997
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: correction on ball dia. MINE WORKS
References: <Pine.UW2.3.95.970528221628.20627A-100000@november>
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Steve Ekwall wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 28 May 1997 HLafonte@aol.com wrote:
> > Greg,
> >  Steel ball dia. is 1 and 1/4 " not 1 and 1/2", I was very excited, sorry.
> > Butch
> >
> Finally got enough little magnets - COUNT ME IN on WORKING SMOT1! -
> I only have 3 Balls :) and some Buckshot and BB's :( laying around.
> ALL THREE BALLS WORK 18mm/20mm(mouse type ball)/25mm.
> or in decimal/US 3/4"/ 7/8" /15/16"(auto wheel bearing).
> They ALL Accelerate and jump! out of the raised end,.. to which my wife
> said the same thing as Gregs' wife " well, of course the do silly."
>   I don't think she grasps just how much FASTER the EXIT (zoom) is to the
> INPUT (null) and its implications....   THIS IS GREAT GOING ON TO SMOT2!
> --------------------------
> Oh, while waiting on exact parts (and I'm glad Greg is selling kits! WE
> ALL HIM ANYWAY HERE -eh?), I wanted to let some of you know that the RADIO
> SHACK part #64-1879 'Choke magnets' WORK OK!  Rather than the 'V' entry
> exit, I set the side metal bars parallel and STACKED as someone mentioned
> earlier today. 1-2-3-4 DEEP  (per side) North on one side SOUTH on the
> other.. noted N/N or S/S not near as FORCEFUL(zoomable)...
> Looking forward to CLOSE the LOOP... wish original plans were BIGGER
> though.  This will make one hell of a MUFFLED RAIL GUN!!!  I hope all this
> international "Brain-Power" can get us a Rotory-in-a-can so i can take it
> up camping.
> 
> se
> 
> ------------------oOOOo---( 0 0 )---oOOOo------------------
> -=Steve Ekwall=-             O             POBox 1255-80150

Hi Steve,

Sounds that you are talking about RMOD Mark II.  NO ramps, no balls, no
noise, only smooth powerfull rotation.  Its only theory and sims at
present, but its looking really good.  Enough said for now.


Best Regards,
 Greg


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 06:30:02 1997
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:49:57 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, Newman-l <newman-l@emachine.com>
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Subject: Re: BULLETIN !!! BULLETIN!!!   IT WORKS OTHER WAYS ALSO!!!
References: <9705282137368173@emachine.com>
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Newman-l wrote:
> 
> From: HLafonte@aol.com
> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:27:28 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: BULLETIN !!! BULLETIN!!!   IT WORKS OTHER WAYS ALSO!!!
> 
> Greg,
>     You are not going to believe what I am about to tell you! I was thinking
> about how long it would take me to round up all the parts for your fixture,
> and then I saw on the list the mention of the kit. Well I got to thinking how
> long It would take in the mail and I am the kind of person who likes to do
> things now or sooner. I got to looking in my " junk box" from old experments,
> and found two one inch long by 7/ 8 " diameter, neodymium-iron-boron magnets
> that I had use to play with about a year ago to see if the magnetic switches
> I had read about, worked. I had two soft steel bars 2 and one half inches
> long by one half inch thick by one inch wide. I put the magnet on the back of
> one of the one inch wide sides at the middle of the bars length. I did the
> same with the other bar. Then I placed the two on my table in a v shape as
> you do. Then I got a one and one half inch steel ball I had given to my
> daughter I found in a machine shop years ago, and put it in the center groove
> of a plastic foot ruler my daughter had. I put the ruller between the two
> bars and elevated the end one eight inch above the table top. I checked the
> ramp without the magnets to make sure the ball rolled down to prove it was a
> slope. It rolled down very fast. I then put the magnets back with nothing
> holding them in place, just their weight holding them down. I rolled the
> magnet up the ramp to about one half inch from the v and when I felt the
> slighest pull from the bars I let it go. The first time it stoped at the end
> of the magnets and I noticed that the end of the ruler was past the magnets.
> I moved it to just past the end of the magnets and the second time it rolled
> up the ramp from a dead stop to the end of the ruller and fell off !!! I want
> to put a video on the net and pictures of it. How do I go about it ? I have
> never done any of that before. It works every time and I want to show every
> one another way of doing what you have discovered. I am so excited I can
> hardly type, this is more fun than I've had in years! How do I get It on the
> net in video?
> Thanks, Butch LaFonte

Hi Butch,

Your setup sounds a lot like my very first ramp.  It had three magnets
on the back side of a short piece (50mm) of ferrite I had lying around
(actually it was from old AM radio tuner coil).

My arrays were in a wide "V" and I used a old dead ink pen tube for the
ball to roll in. 

First time it ran up to the top, but hung.  I then adjusted the tube
down and it worked every time after that.

Different dog, same leg action!

Looking forward to your linking report.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 06:30:02 1997
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:41:53 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Subject: Re: SMOT Criteria
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Hamdi Ucar wrote:
> 
> Hi Greg,
> 
> It will useful to include an over-unity criteria to describe exactly on
> which condition the toy can be considered exhibiting over-unity effect
> and not. I think on most cases the thickness of the ramp was not taken
> account and when the ball go away from the exit on any conditions, it is
> assumed as OU effect.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Hamdi Ucar

Hi Hamdi,

Some time ago I defined 3 types of ramps :

  1) Ball climbs to top of ramp and hangs.  (Not Ou)

  2) Ball climbs to top of ramp and drops to entry level, but doesn't
roll away.  (Not clearly Ou, but maybe if mag field is lower than that
at entry)

  3) Ball climbs to top of ramp and drops to entry level and rolls
away.  (High probability of Ou.  Depends on zero entry energy of ball.)


I have obtained all three classes of ramp.  My theory on what divides
the classes is based on where the equal entry mag field density is
encountered on exit.  The divisions based on ramp classes are as follows
:

  1) The entry field density is encountered just under the maagnet
arrays and the ball hangs.

  2) The entry field density is encountered below the entry level and
the ball is held at the exit by the higher field density (than the
start).

  3) The entry field density is encountered between the hang point of
item 1) and the exit level.  This means that as the ball drops and
reaches the exit / entry level, the encountered mag field density is
below the entry mag field and the ball kinetic energy carries is away
from the ramp exit.

I have attached a Gif image showing this theory.


Best Regards,
 Greg

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 06:37:15 1997
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:04:52 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Subject: Re: Cheap SMOT!!
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Chris Tinsley wrote:
> 
> Terry,
> 
>  > Yes the excess momentum (plus the mechanical losses) seems to
>  > violate conservation of energy. <G>
> 
> If a "one-ramp rollaway" can be achieved with the exit slightly higher
> than the entry (apologies for the 'if', but ...) then there is no
> reason in principle why the ball can't be persuaded to find its way back
> to the start point ... is there?

In Phase 3, we WILL achieve a lift at the top of the 4th linked ramp of
over twice the original.  Any ideas of what to do then with a bit of
plastic tubing?

>  > I wonder if I can get rotary motion by using curved magnets and
>  > and a non-conducting disk with some ferrite nodules?
> 
> So do I.

Thats RMOD Mark II.

> Chris
> (in mind-boggle mode)
> PS - are we having fun yet?

Hi Chris,

Got a link to work yet?


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 06:38:15 1997
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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 23:24:58 +1000
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Hi all,

I don't know if this has been thought of yet and I missed it,
but here goes ...

What if one were to set up a single SMOT ramp so that the bearing
goes up the ramp, drops off the end, then rolls back down to the
base of the ramp by rolling UNDERNEATH the ramp.  This could be
achieved by use of a conduit, which would recieve the bearing at
the top of the ramp, and channel it back down to the bottom.  By
having several bearings going at once, in a continuous chain, I
submit that it is possible that the chain of ball bearings would
move around this closed loop indefinitely.

Let me know what you all think
	
-- 

Be seeing you ... =8^)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
               BAMBOO SOFTWARE PRODUCTIONS, INC.
    "We love playing games, but not as much as making 'em!"
-------------------------------------------------------------------
              Matthew Etherington (aka Max Rebo)
          Senior Vice President and Head Programmer      
                    [  id4@ats.com.au  ]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
 "Cynic? Ah yes ... 'cynic' is what an idealist calls a realist"
                --- Sir Humphrey Appleby
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 06:50:43 1997
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:18:06 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs
References: <Pine.OSF.3.95.970529164020.20511A-100000@tauon.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU> <338D2F83.369B@microtronics.com.au> <338D422F.5182@math.ucla.edu>
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Barry Merriman wrote:
> 
> Greg Watson wrote:
> >
> > Nothing like a good theory fight!.
> > And the winner of ROUND 1 is ????????
> > Where is Barry???????
> >
> 
> Here. Allow me to take a shot at a mundane explantion,
> based on comments of Martin and Hal:
> 
> Perhaps the energy that drives the ball in the closed
> loop mode is simply the energy removed from the magnetic
> field via the presence of the ball, which kills the field
> energy in its vicinity (refer to
> http://home.worldonline.nl/~catware/ld2.html
> for a picture of this effect; refer to plot of B).
> 
> Lets figure: the available energy from killing the
> 0.04 Tesla ambient field within a ~ 20 mm neighborhood of
> of the ball is (in MKS)
> 
> dE = (B^2/(2 mu0)) * volume
>    ~ ((0.04)^2/(2* 10^-6) * (20 x 10^-3)^3
>    ~ 16 * 8/2 * 0.0001
>    ~ 0.005 Joules
> 
> The system has this much free energy to work with once
> the ball is in place. Now, let us count the losses:
> The dominant losses in a well built system will be friction
> and drag from the air:
> 
> Drag:
> 
> the power loss to drag is P_drag F.V, where F is the drag force,
> V the ball velocity.  The drag force is
> 
> F = C (rho_air V^2)/2
> 
> where C = drag coeff is about 20 for a sphere of that size moving
> through air at 0.01 m/sec (=> Reynolds number ~ 1), rho_air
> is the density of air ~ 1 kg/m^3, so
> 
> F = 20 * 1 * 0.01^2 /2 = 0.001 Newtons
> 
> and the power loss is
> 
> P_drag = 10^-5 Watts
> 
> If the velocity were 0.001 m/s, we woudl get instead
> C ~ 200 and
> 
> P_drag = 10^-6 Watts
> 
> Friction:
> 
> The power loss do to friction is due to the rolling fricition
> of the ball on the track: P_friction = F.V, where F is
> friction forc F = C W, W = wieght of ball, C = coeff of
> rolling friction. We have W ~ 10 gram = 0.01 kg. Coeff.
> of rolling friction is extremely small; I don't have any
> precise numbers handy, but I would guess it is < 0.001,
> since coeff's of *sliding* friction can get down to 0.04 or
> so (teflon on steel). Thus
> 
> P_friction < P_drag (probably << )
> 
> in any case, and we can neglect it.
> 
> Based on the available energy dE ~ 0.005 J, and the loss
> rate of P = 10^-5 W -- 10^-6 W, we would expect the thing to run
> for 500 -- 5000 seconds ~ 10 -- 100 minutes.
> 
> Greg said that in practice a version of his device ran for
> about 200 minutes before it stopped.

I also repeatily said that I could restart it!.  It stopped because of
movement of the magnets.  If you BUILD one of the SMOT ramps, you will
see how sensitive they are to adjustment, but once you get it right they
are VERY soild.

The first version of the RMOD device ran for just short of 4 days until
I STOPPED it.  The magnets showed NO signs of weaking.

> Seems pretty reasonable to me. I imagine a test would be
> to position the ball *at rest* at the point of greatest
> field cancellation (i.e. where B is strongest in the
> ball-free set up) and then let it go. At this point it can't
> pick up extra energy from additional field cancellation.
> 
> In any case, it should be clear from these comments and
> Martin's that there is ample energy available from
> minor alterations to the free space field (per
> above) and/or magnetization (per martin's comments)
> (Note a *1 part in 1000* reduction in magnetization would
> give a few (~10) milli-Joules of energy, also enough to perform
> as above) due to the perturbing presence of the ball in the system
> are enough to "power" the device to run in "closed loop" mode for
> a couple hours---exactly what is observed. Any reason to
> think this is not what is occuring?

Ask any of the older builders if their magnets are loosing power.  I
KNOW the answer.  My discussions with Hal and his ZPE powered electrons
seems to fit what the BUILDERS are seeing.

> --
> Barry Merriman

Hi Barry,

Come on man, join the world, BUILD a ramp.  See it work with nothing
other than your eyes,  Feel it work with your fingers.  Hear it work
(create noise energy) with your ears.  Drop a ball every 0.5 sec and
watch all that moving mass.

Barry , this is real.  BUILD a ramp and help us work out what is
happening.


My Very Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 07:15:28 1997
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:41:56 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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References: <199705291245.HAA15335@natasha.eden.com>
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Scott Little wrote:
> 
> At 02:06 AM 5/29/97 -0700, Barry Merriman wrote:
> 
> >....so the device could run for
> >5000 seconds, or about 1 hour, which is in the range of
> >what was actually observed.
> 
> Greg claims 4 DAYS, Barry....not 1 hour...and he further claims that the
> magnets are not detectably weakened after those 4 days.   I'd say that you
> can forget mundane explanations for this.

Others have been Smotting for long enough to advise of any reduction in
their mag strength.  Ask them.

> As others have concluded, either:
> 
> 1.  It works as he says and we have new physics to explore.
> 2.  It does not work as he says.

It does work, but the physics has been here for ages.  Read the list of
OU patents I posted earlier.  There have been many others.  Maybe my
timing and approach are the only real difference.  Like I said before
Scott, "I don't think I am the first".  I just talk better.

> Greg, you're not pulling the old "GE diamond" trick on us here, are you?
> During the development of the industrial diamond, early results were
> understandably erratic.  One particularly fine example of an early success
> was held up to the development team as a goal to learn to duplicate.  They
> eventually succeeded.  

Nothing works like faith.  Believe hard enough that it can be done and
IT WILL BE!

That why there are 4 Phases and just enough info dribbled out to keep
things rolling along.

But this is not a diamond trick, its real.  Link 4 SMOT ramps Scott. 
Feed in balls for a few days and measure the magnets.  They will not
weaken.

> Long afterwards, that particular diamond was
> discovered to be a natural diamond that sombody had slipped in!  In this
> case, by claiming to have closed the loop on yr device you have certainly
> succeeded in getting a lot of folks working on it around the world!...<g>
> 
> On the positive side, at this point we have way more to go on than we did,
> for example, when we started our investigation into the Potapov device.
> This time we have the inventor himself willingly leading us along the
> development path toward a claimed working device.  It's
> irresistible...especially in view of its simplicity and ease of construction.

And so many others have claimed duplication.  Not so risky now?

> Scott Little

Hi Scott,

I do believe in enpowering people, but I have never claimed anything I
can't prove.  Life is too long for that and the world is getting smaller
all the time.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 07:18:33 1997
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:16:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: woods@most.weird.com (Greg A. Woods)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Professional fun and a damper for O/U.
In-Reply-To: Greg Watson's message
	of "Thu, May 29, 1997 16:55:55 +0930"
	regarding "Re: Professional fun and a damper for O/U."
	id <338D2F83.369B@microtronics.com.au>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.95.970529164020.20511A-100000@tauon.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU>
	<338D2F83.369B@microtronics.com.au>
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[ On Thu, May 29, 1997 at 16:55:55 (+0930), Greg Watson wrote: ]
> Subject: Re: Professional fun and a damper for O/U.
>
> > Greg Watson says that 4 linked ramps can lift a 12 mm ball, 12 mm in height.
> 
> One ramp can do that.  I have achieved 27mm as a max and still get
> release.  Others have achieved over 50mm.
> 
> > A 12 mm diameter ball weighs about 5 grams so the gravitational energy is:
> > 
> > E = mgh = 0.005*9.8*0.12 = 0.006 Joules.
> > 
> > Given that we have 4 Joules of energy, that means our typical 4 ramp
> > SMOT has a lifetime of about 680 lifts to 12 mm in height. After that we have
> > to worry about something else as a source of energy.
> 
> I have exceeded that figure by approx 5 times to date with SMOT ramp
> testing.  The RMOD was much .... much more.

I think it's important to measure the lift as the distance the ball
falls *after* it has completely exited the field at the end of the last
ramp.

I'm thinking of this as a complete neophyte here.  I'm so far out of
touch with physics that the best I'm likely to remember are the basics I
learned in high school which were re-inforced through two semesters of
undergrad physics about 12 years ago!

Anyway if gravity is responsible for pulling the ball out of the field
then the the energy gain is the total lift minus the energy necessary to
pull the ball out of the field at the end.  So if we only calculate the
lift to the height where the ball is completely free of the field then
any difference can be considered gravy.  ;-)

The other thing I've not heard anyone talk about is whether there's a
difference between the "work" necessary to lift the ball vertically
vs. the work necessary to roll it up a low friction ramp.  The friction
calculation should be fairly simple I'd think -- I'm sure I've seen an
experiment that demonstrates the method.  However I don't even know if I
remember enough to know if there's a difference between the rolling and
the lifting work....  Perhaps it can be demonstrated by the size of a
dent that can be made by rolling a ball down various inclines of ramp
from vertical to nearly none from the same vertical height into a block
of some kind of shock absorbing material.

These magnetic field simulators should be able to show us where the
falling ball is essentially free of the field, and perhaps can help
calculate the pull against gravity as it drops out of the field.

It would be most interesting to build a sturdy version of a multi-ramp
SMOT with the best machined ramp to ensure no variations and lowest
friction (perhaps also using the powder filled glass ball instead of an
iron one).  Then to build a mechanical mechanism that can return the
ball from the drop to the start and recycle it.  Then run it as long as
possible, maybe with the ramp portion alone enclosed in a calorimeter.

Has anyone put one of these ramps in a Faraday field cage that's good
enough to dampen the earth's magnetic field (if indeed there is such a
device)?

Just some ideas as the first coffe of the morning kicks in, so don't
flame me for being a complete ignoramus!  ;-)

Of course the RMOD will be the real test....

-- 
							Greg A. Woods

+1 416 443-1734			VE3TCP			robohack!woods
Planix, Inc. <woods@planix.com>; Secrets of the Weird <woods@weird.com>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 07:44:24 1997
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From: woods@most.weird.com (Greg A. Woods)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs
In-Reply-To: epitaxy@localaccess.com's message
	of "Thu, May 29, 1997 04:14:50 -0700"
	regarding "Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs"
	id <3.0.32.19970529041432.00ae275c@mail.localaccess.com>
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[ On Thu, May 29, 1997 at 04:14:50 (-0700), epitaxy@localaccess.com wrote: ]
> Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs
>
> A much more accurate estimate of the travel ling losses of the ball in the
> SMOT, could be done empirically by weighing the ball and accelerating it to
> a known velocity (i.e. by a sloped release ramp) and than measuring how far
> the ball will travel on an absolutely level U channel, before it stops.

You can avoid the requirement for a long extremely level channel by
using a soft 100% shock-absorbing material that leaves a dent mark where
the ball strikes it.  If a fresh dent is the same diameter between two
different tests then the ball has delivered the same amount of energy.

-- 
							Greg A. Woods

+1 416 443-1734			VE3TCP			robohack!woods
Planix, Inc. <woods@planix.com>; Secrets of the Weird <woods@weird.com>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 07:53:16 1997
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Resent-Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:50:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:49:18 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970529104916_642950598@emout09.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: SMOT v1.02 - Blueprints and Linking method diagram
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Hi All,

Today, I have put in my web server the detailled schemes of my SMOT V1.02
units which works linked.  ( schemes scale = 1 )
Also I have put the WORKING SETUP SCHEME of my linked configuration with all
measurements.

You will find all these informations at :

    http://members.aol.com/overunity3/html/s102jlnp.htm

I think that with these detailled schemes and linking configuration, you will
be able to succeed in the SMOTs testing.

Overunity yours,

Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 09:20:40 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:18:02 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970529121759_1822686507@emout08.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: SMOT 1.02 - Additional info. 
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Hi SMOT'ters,

Here some additional informations about my SMOT v1.02 :

Steel ball : 12 mm diam. weight = 70 gr

Magnets : Ferrite Barium  40 x 25 x 10 mm ( anisotrop )
Energy produced  ( BxH ) max : 29.5 kJ/m^3  -  3.7 MGOe
Remanence ( Br) : 400 mT   -   4000 G
Coercitivity ( T=20oC ) : 
     bHc : 160 kA/m  - 2000 Oe
     jHc  : 165 kA/m  - 2050 Oe

Permeability : 1.1 mT/(kA/m)
Temp. coef. -0.20%
Max operating temp. :  200 oC
Density : 4.9 g/cm^3
Curie point : 450 oC

You can find this Magnets in FRANCE at :

Aimants Goudsmit France
Z.I. rue du vert Bois
59535 Neuville en Ferrain Cedex
Tel : (33) 03 20 03 60 66
Fax: (33) 03 20 03 59 96

Sincerely,



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 09:48:30 1997
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From: "Ben Tammetta" <tammetta@mindspring.com>
To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:43:12 +0000
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Hi All

> > Greg: would a freeby Kit pay off here (in your plan of things/exposure)
> >       or are we too soon??
This was my thinking a year ago if I ever invented an Over Unity 
Device, and was able to create a kit.  I would present it to Art Bell
He loves this kind of stuff, has a great show and huge audience.
He would definitely promote it.

> 
> If I present it personally!

Long Trip :)
He's in Parumpt (sp?,   near Las Vegas)  Nevada in the  US  .

> Don't know Art Bell, but I would be interested in talking.

Greg, you can start by checking out his web page and listen to some
of all his archived radio programs on the internet using a RealAudio
Player.  He's got some great ones.
http://www.artbell.com

Email or Fax him to tell him what you're doing and have (SMOT kit, OU) 
And I'm sure he'll be calling you back.

The fastest  way for you to make any money off the SMOT, 
and at the same time, put it in the hands of 1000's of people to
prove OU, is to turn it into a kit and HAVE ART BELL ADVERTISE IT FOR 
YOU!
2 birds with one stone :)
I guarantee it!  :)

If nothing else, at least look into it.

> By the way, I am a very good public speaker who presents and debates
> well.
All the better. You'd  make a great guest on his show!
 
> Any talk show, lecture circuit offers?
Art Bell will most likely give you one.

I'm exited about this one!! 

Sincerely,
Ben
ben@clubelite.com


 
############################
# Ben Tammetta             #
# ben@interactive.ibm.com  #
############################

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 10:18:51 1997
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Message-ID: <01BC6C19.217291B0@ristra.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: hot SMOT
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:14:43 -0700
Encoding: 3 TEXT
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I heated a ball bearing to red-hot with a propane torch, then cooled it 
slowly. Had to spend some time repolishing it afterwards. This made a small 
but noticeable improvement in performance.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 13:29:06 1997
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From: Hawkeye <havveye@execpc.com>
To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: "freenrg-l@eskimo.com" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: SMOT QField Sims
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:57:07 -0500
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one question about the SMOT. How many ways can you get power off of it? I can only think of two ways.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 15:15:35 1997
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:10:37 -1000
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Rick Monteverde <monteverde@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: SMOT Idea using 1 ramp
Cc: vortex-l@eskimo.com
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Gnorts -

How about using a tube with a bend in it to kick the ball out *sideways*
from between a *vertically* oriented (over-under) magnet array?! No ramp,
just a level acceleration for momentum. The crook in the tube forces the
issue of the ball exiting the array right where you want it. I haven't
tried this yet, I will this afternoon. But if there's good roll-out
momentum, then it's just a simple circle route on level ground back to the
start. Terry Blanton's powerful stacked magnet array would probably be good
with this setup. With enough roll-out momentum...

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 15:27:41 1997
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:25:04 -0700
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: "Mary C." <maryc@inc-g.com>
Subject: How does a magnet work?
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Hi Gents,

Another simple question from the peanut gallery...  How does a magnet
actually pull iron to it? Does anyone have a simplified explanation of what
a magnetic field is? (Or is that a bit like asking "What is gravity? <g>)
Please don't dive into the waters of orthogonal B and E vector fields.
Describing the fields is not the question. Rephrased... what is it that is
being described? 

(BTW Greg, your Qfield sims have been Great!)

Mary C.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 15:30:39 1997
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Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:33:18 +0100
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Chris Morriss <crsm@oroboros.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs
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In message <m0wX6Q5-000770C@most.weird.com>, woods@most.weird.com writes
>[ On Thu, May 29, 1997 at 04:14:50 (-0700), epitaxy@localaccess.com wrote: ]
>> Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs
>>
>> A much more accurate estimate of the travel ling losses of the ball in the
>> SMOT, could be done empirically by weighing the ball and accelerating it to
>> a known velocity (i.e. by a sloped release ramp) and than measuring how far
>> the ball will travel on an absolutely level U channel, before it stops.
>
>You can avoid the requirement for a long extremely level channel by
>using a soft 100% shock-absorbing material that leaves a dent mark where
>the ball strikes it.  If a fresh dent is the same diameter between two
>different tests then the ball has delivered the same amount of energy.
>

Regarding the drop at the end of the ramp:
As the ball climbs the ramp it is gaining linear momentum and also a
rotational moment of inertia.  Is it the case that the direction of
rotation must stay absolutely the same as it falls so that the ball is
driven onwards towards the next ramp by the rotation of the ball?
I would think that this would be made easier if the drop was controlled
by a steep descending ramp rather than a sudden drop with an abrupt
change of direction as it hits the foot of the next ascending ramp.

If the rotation is important in getting the ball to progress between
ramps it may make it difficult to modify the design to a rotary one
directly, as the ferro-magnetic moving pieces then are likely to be
physically restrained on a 'fairground big-wheel' or equivalent.

Just my few pence worth.

Bye,
-- 
Chris Morriss

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 15:53:19 1997
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Message-ID: <338E07C5.15FF@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:18:37 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: SMOT Phase 2 Details
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------310548FF5863"
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------310548FF5863
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi All,

Attached is a gif showing two treatments that can be used on the exit of
the ramp.  The simple one I used initially as the "S" curve is difficult
to cut using hand tools and I wanted a high initial strike rate on the
SMOT Phase 1 devices.

All three exits will work :

  1) Clean cut off.

  2) Clean cut off with a 45 deg lip to shoot the ball into the next
ramp.

  3) "S" curve designed to give the ball the max kinetic energy into the
next ramp.

The exit mag fields required are very different for the class 3 exit. 
With the first 2 exits, the ball could become air borne as it leaves the
sharply cut ramp end.  If this happens, the ball will be sucked to one
side array or the other.  To overcome this problem, I developed the idea
of using the exit mag wall to slightly push the ball back into the exit
rails as it drops.  This results in a good exit, but most of the balls
kinetic energy has gone into the exit mag wall and very little is
available to use in entering the next linked ramp.  However its simple
and works well.

Now onto the real stuff.

With the "S" curve exit, things are very different.  Here we want to
give back as little kinetic energy as possible.  The 3mm radius at the
top results in the ball seeing a slowly dropping field as it changes
direction 90 deg.  The top radius varies as the geometry of the ball,
rail and mag field contours alter from design to design.  If you wish to
experiment with the "S", start with 3mm.  It seems to be a good middle
of the road value.

The bottom curve should be larger than the rolling radius of the ball. 
My rolling radius is 4mm.  The rolling radius is the radius the ball
actualls roll on.

If you try a "S" exit, be aware of the requirement for both the "S" to
match exactly, otherwise the ball will be thrown to one side.  I used a
small round file mounted in a drill press (Wasn't switched on, just
moved it up and down) to ensure the file cut was true to both sides.

The "S" curve is used in the SMOT kits and they are now machine cut.

The use of the "S" curve will take you back to to start in adjusting
ramps.  You will find in a lot easier to get exits and if you can get a
lift of at least twice the balls diameter, you may be able to get a
level roll away.  Roll aways are not the point of Phase 2.  Thats Phase
3.  But that will not stop some of you.

I have found that if you secure the linked ramps to a stable base (I use
12mm particle board) things will work much better.  I use Blu-Tak to
hold my ramps down.  Seems to work well and still allows adjustment.


Remember our goals in Phase 2 are :

  1) Build and link at least 4 Smot ramps.

  2) Achieve a lift on the last ramp of at least twice the lift of the
first ramp.

  3) Experiment with angular linking.

  4) Play with the ramp exit curve to get the best speed into the next
ramp.

  5) Be able to get 8-10 balls in transit at once.

  6) Report back.

  7) Take pictures and videos if you can.

  8) Tell as many people as you can.

  9) Take a linked ramp setup to your local university.

 10) Keep BUILDING and THINKING.


Over to you,
 Greg

PS : Web sites, please update your Phase 2 data with the attached
drawings.

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 16:49:51 1997
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Message-ID: <338E1548.3A8C@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:16:16 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Subject: Re: SMOT Criteria
References: <338CF8A9.F1F59EB5@verisoft.com.tr> <l03102801afb3a0b4e173@[207.147.205.16]>
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Greg -
> 
> Have you accidently switched the meanings of positions 2 and 3 in your GIF?
> 
> - Rick Monteverde

Hi Rick,

No.

Point 2 is where the equiv entry field is encountered on roll out (after
dropping to the entry level) and the ball is sucked back to the exit
ramp.

Point 3 is where the equiv entry field density is encountered on the way
down and the ball continues to fall to the entry level and roll away.

Smot ramps can move between class 2 and class 3 with different mag array
setups.  Its all in the return fields of the arrays.  I posted a series
of gifs some time ago showing how the "Hole" between two attractive
magnets varies with their spacing.  Those Gifs are the basis of the way
I "Control" the exit field contours in SMOT ramps.


Best Regards,
 Greg

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 16:50:44 1997
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Message-ID: <338E15A9.56C8@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:17:53 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT QField Sims
References: <01BC6C44.DAD688C0@sy-snootles.mdm.mke.execpc.com>
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Hawkeye wrote:
> 
> one question about the SMOT. How many ways can you get power off of it? I can only think of two ways.

Hi Hawkeye,

The RMOD produces torque.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 17:40:12 1997
Received: (from smartlst@localhost) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA32340; Thu, 29 May 1997 17:39:23 -0700
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Message-ID: <338E2142.499D@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:07:22 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Hi All,

I will give away a SMOT ramp kit to the first 2 people who can show 4
linked SMOT ramps with a final lift at least 2 times the original and a
roll away.  Photos required.

You now have ALL the necessary info to do this.

The gun has sounded, the race has started, the clock is ticking, go for
it!


Good Building and Linking,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 18:03:24 1997
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Barry -
> 
> > 1. Look like major fool when device is shown to work
> > via elementary physics.
> 
> Hey, I bet it does work via elementary physics. Everything else does, why
> should this be an exception? You wouldn't look foolish unless you were
> assigning the inappropriate or incorrect physics to it.
> 
> I think the #1 reason anyway would be 'it turns out it really doesn't work,
> and you spoke publicly before *you* closed the loop.' I'm beginning to
> doubt that its turning up non-functional will be the result, but until I
> see it myself on my own benchtop, I'm not "speaking publicly" (claiming
> myself) that it is an overunity device, it runs for hours longer than can
> be accounted for by more or less conventional explanations, that the
> magnets don't die out, etc. Greg has pretty much claimed these things
> though, and has been open and honest about it all so far. It would be a big
> surprise to see a major diversion from that at this point.
> 
> Basically I'm not disagreeing with you very much - I think we should wait a
> bit and see lots of closed-loop replications of Greg's design, 100+ hour
> runs, no dead magnets - _then_ celebrate (and work hard on our own rotary
> designs).
> 
> And we do have to put your challenge about dying magnets firmly behind us
> before we can expect to lock up our off-grid homes, jump into our shiny new
> 1998 Smotmobiles and hum quietly off into the smog-free sunset.
> 
> - Rick Monteverde

Hi Rick,

Well it seems we have gone very quickly past a very important point.  

Seems not too long ago, no one thought that you could get magnets to do
work.  Period.  Impossible.  No one has every done it.  And so on.  I
have a whole archive of the stuff.

Now that that fairy fail is dead, have we forgotten so quickly where we
are now.  MAGNETS CAN DO REAL WORK.  Smot proves that.  That alone is a
major change in our view of the physical world.

The question I asked some time ago about where the energy is coming from
is now on the forefront.  I did ask earlier.

I don't know, but I know the magnets don't die.  Would I have taken you
this far as a joke?

What I am sharing with you is a REAL device.  
It works.  
The magnets don't die.  
I am concerned as to what we will have to pay the ferryman for the
energy.

I know you need proof of my "magnet's don't die" claim.

Who can rig up a ball dropper for Barry so 2 balls a secong can be
dropped into the entry of a SMOT ramp?

Who can come up with a solid set of figures for how many balls must pass
through a SMOT ramp before a measurable drop in magnet field strength
occurs.

Hey theory guys, come up with a solid set of data and we will find
someone (Jean-Louis) who can rig up a test setup and film it working. 
Maybe online to the net in real time?

Meter showing magnet field strength, counter showing number of balls
passing through the single SMOT ramp.

Hey, I know they don't die, but what's my word worth?


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 18:40:16 1997
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Why the weird improbable explanation ?


Ockham's Razor.  The heating and slow cooling of a tempered steel used in a
bearing ball MAKES IT SOFTER both mechanically and magnetically.  Have you
ever heated up a knife read-hot and than noticed that it doesn't stay sharp
anymore (even if it is sharpened later) !!!

Heating and SLOWLY cooling up tempered iron, carbon, nickel based alloys
(ie. bearing ball) always makes them softer and increases their magnetic
permeability,  THIS IS CALLED ANNEALING.

Annealing is really easy to notice by using a spring-weight-scale and
measuring the pull force on the bearing ball before and after heating
(using the same magnet of course)

I have been achieving higher SMOT efficiencies by using a glass marble
filled with powdered iron (this idea precedes the ""Ball suffering of
magnetism!"" post).  And NO the iron powder doesn't suffer at all after a
lot of trips through the SMOT ramp.


To: Dan Quickert
If you have the same kind of bearing ball that has not been heated yet,
compare the force it takes to separate the unheated ball VERSUS the heated
ball from THE SAME magnet.  Also notice how much easier it is to dent the
heated ball with a hammer.

Heating the ball however has a negative side effect on the friction
efficiency.  Firstly because the smooth surface is oxidized and becomes
rough, secondly the mechanical harness decreases and that increases the
friction against the U channel.  Your observed higher SMOT efficiency comes
from the good polishing job you did and the fact that the increased
"magnetic softness" outweighs the mechanical friction increase.



At 09:24 PM 5/29/97 +0400, you wrote:
>Dan Quickert wrote:
>> 
>> I heated a ball bearing to red-hot with a propane torch, then cooled
>> it
>> slowly. Had to spend some time repolishing it afterwards. This made a
>> small
>> but noticeable improvement in performance.
>> 
>This is consistent with my observation by the posting
>"Ball suffering of magnetism!" at Thu, 29 May 1997 01:53:05 +0400
>
>Regards,
>
>Hamdi Ucar
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 19:03:21 1997
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From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705300200.WAA07144@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: New image file about SMOT movment.
To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com (science)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:00:32 -0400 (EDT)
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I have created a nice, shiny, new image file about my around-the-earth
SMOT idea.  Please go to:
http://frognet.net/~cantino/smot.html

Thanks -- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu May 29 23:59:26 1997
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Barry Merriman wrote:
> 
> There seems to be some confusion over the mechanism
> I am postulating for powering the SMOT.  Let me clarify.
> 
> I am *not* postulating that the permanent magnets become
> demagnetized. I do not see any direct mechanism for
> demagnetization (yet). However, it is important to note that
> *if* demagnetization could occur, it would only require
> a ~ 1 part in 1000 reduction in magnetization to power the
> device as observed. (Toy SMOT runs for ~ 1 hour)
> 
> What I am suggesting is the following: when the ball is
> introduced into the field, its own magnetic response
> nullifies the field energy in its vicinity (this is clearly
> shows in the plots of B provided on the SMOT WWW site).
> This energy is then available to power the rolling
> of the ball against drag and friction (and other losses).
> 
> Accounting for these energies seems to suggest the motion
> would persist for ~ 1 hour. To the same degree of accuracy
> as the calculations, this is how long Greg said the simple ball-on-track
> SMOT would run before stopping.

I said it ran for 3 hours and 27 minutes.  It stopped because a ramp
moved.  It started again without problems.

> Here are more precise estimates of the energies involved:
> 
> Energy lost by the field due to presence of the ball:
> -----------------------------------------------------
> 
> dE_B=
> 
> (original field energy density)x(volume of depletion zone)
> 
>           =  B0^2/(2 mu0) x (~ 20 * 10^-3 m)^3
> 
> B0 = 0.04 Tesla by Gregs field simulations
> 
>           = 0.005 Joules
> 
> Kinetic energy of the ball:
> ---------------------------
> 
> K = (1/2) m v^2
> 
> m ~ 10 grams, v ~ 1 cm/sec (estimate---better value?)
> 
>   = .5 * 0.01 * 0.01^2 = 5*10^-7
> 
> or, for arbitrary velocity v, since K scales like v^2
> 
> K(v) = 5* 10^-7 * v   (v in units of cm/sec)
> 
> Gravitational Potential of Ball going up  in elevation
> ------------------------------------------------------
> 
> U = m g h = 0.01 kg * 10 m/s^2 * 0.01m  (for h = 1 cm = 0.01m)
>   = 0.001 Joules
>   = 0.001 * h Joules (in general, if h is in units of cm)
> 
> Losses to air Drag:
> --------------
> 
> P_drag = drag power loss = C A (1/2) rho v^2
> 
> where A = cross sectional area of ball
>         = pi (r_ball)^2 = pi (0.006)^2
>         = 0.0001 m^2
>     rho = density of air = 1.4 kg/m^3
>      v  = ball velocity ~ 0.01 m/s
>      C  = Drag Coeff
>         = 24/Re (Re = Reynolds number =  2 r_ball v/ nu_air,
>                     nu_air = kinematic viscosity of air
>                            = 10^-5 m/s^2,
>                  So for r_ball = 0.006, v = 0.01, Re ~ 10, C ~ 2
>         (Ref: Batchelor's Book on Fluid Mechanics, page 233)
> 
> => P_drag = 10^-8 Watts
> 
> (or, at arbitrary speed, since P scales like v overall,
> 
>    P_drag(v) = 10^-8 * v   Watts (v in units of cm/sec)
> 
> Rolling Friction losses:
> ------------------------
> 
> P_fric = power loss to rolling friction
>        = F . v
>   where F = rolling friction force = c W, W =  weight of
> ball = 0.01 kg * 10 m/s^2 = 0.1 Newton, c = coeff of
> rolling friction. According to the article on Friction in
> Communications in Physics, vol 2, 1961, for polished
> metals coefficients of sliding friction are in the range
> of 0.3--1.5, and with lubrication (e.g the graphite used
> by Greg) this is cut by ~ 10 fold, and coeffients of rolling
> friction for hard surfaces are reduced ~ 1000 fold from the
> sliding frcition coeff. Thus we can estimate that
> c ~ 1 * (1/10) * (1/1000) with lubrication and polished surfaces.
> Thus
> 
> P_fric = 10^-4 * 0.1 * 0.01 Watts  (at v = 0.01m/s)
> 
>        = 10^-7 Watts
> 
> or, for arbitrary v,
> 
> P_fric(v) = 10^-7 * v Watts, (v in units of cm/sec.)
> 
> So, we now note the following: Overall dissipation is
> around 10^-7 Watts (need to add in eddy current losses too, really)
> while the available free energy is up to ~ 0.005 Joules.
> This is enough energy to drive the system for 5 * 10^4 seconds,
> which is 15 hours.

My RMOD Mark I ran for almost 4 days.  I stopped it manually as it was
getting tired and noisy.

It will still run today.

> Thus, even if one assembles the closed loop system and it
> goes for ~ 15 hours, there would not really be anything too
> amazing, i.e. beyond the amounts of energy seeminly available
> to drive such things.

Not too amazing, you must be kidding.  

Where is there another example of a magnet powered device doing actual
work!  
You have stated in the past that this was impossible.  
Now you seem to be trying to claim the effect is not worthy of further
study.  

Worried about your own research program Barry?
 
> As I said, one check on the above would be to start the ball
> at rest from *the position of max field strength*, held there
> for a while to let it cancel whatever field it can, so it
> cannot gain further energy by diamagnetic cancellation of
> the field.
> 
> One extremeley important thing to note is that the Kinetic energy of
> the ball is only K = 5*10^-7 v^2 Joules (v in cm/sec)---this is TINY!
> We see the magnetic fields are perfectly capable of supplying
> 1000 x this much with only a small perturbation of the overall field.
> Also, the enrgy associated with the vertical motion of the ball
> is U = 0.001 h Joules (h in cm)---this is also modest compared
> to the readily available field energy ~ 0.005 J.
> 
> Thus---pay attention here, this is the punch line---the energies
> of all the *observed motion* (motion along track, and vertical
> elevation)---are all *SMALL* compared to readily available
> field energy in the vicinity of the ball. And, the energy
> going to the dissipation mechanisms is all small compared to this
> out time of ~ 10 hours.
> 
> Thus, I see no reason to expect that it is anything other
> than converting the energy from local field nullification
> into vertical and horizontal motion of the ball, and the
> the dissipative effects don't really impact this for 10's
> of hours. A SMOT running for 100-1000 hours would be needed
> to counter even my *minimal mechanism above* (it would run
> almost forever--10,000 hours---if it were instead somehow
> demagnetizing the magnetics, which is not what I suggested!).
> 
> (Or, as Bill B. said, make a SMOT with about 100 x the friction
> so that running for 1 hour would be meaningful).
> 
> I think the Mystery of the SMOT is begining to fade rapidly, though
> it may remain difficult to pin down the precise, detailed physics of
> the magnet-ball interaction. I encourage Greg to devote his
> life to this, though, if he so chooses.

You are truely, really unreal.  Get a real life Barry.

> --
> Barry Merriman
> Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program
> Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
> email: barry@math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 00:32:20 1997
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From: skot@compumedia.com (Scott Becker)
Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs
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>Barry Merriman wrote:
 
snip

>> Thus, I see no reason to expect that it is anything other
>> than converting the energy from local field nullification
>> into vertical and horizontal motion of the ball...

snip

>> Barry Merriman
>> Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program
>> Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
>> email: barry@math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry
>

Dude..
    The local field nullification is totally reversed by the time
the ball is clear of the ramp! The above explaination would only be
valid if the ball kept moving continously toward the magnets.

You've said that you agree that the magnets are not losing magnetic
strength. Therefore after a ball has approached, gone through and
left a ramp, the magnetic fields will be *identical* to the way they
were before the ball came. This is pretty straight forward.

                                    Scott Becker
                                    skot@compumedia.com


/********************************************************/
/* I don't think that energy is conserved, but it       */
/* doesn't matter if useful over-unity operation works! */
/********************************************************/

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 01:45:24 1997
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Subject: Closed SMOT doesn't perform lift
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I agree than in a closed SMOT you only should count mechanical & eddy
losses, because in a closed SMOT the ball always returns to the same level.
 It is NOT lifted Higher and Higher !!!


At 11:54 PM 5/29/97 -0500, John Logajan wrote:
>Carefull about mixing and matching configurations.  A closed loop
configuration
>always returns the ball to the initial starting height.   However, a multi-
>ramp unclosed configuration could (if sapping the magnetic strength) gobble
>up your .0006J per pass.  But you'd always have to hand carry the ball.
>Once you allow it to "fall" back to the starting point, you are getting back
>that .0006J potential energy as kinetic energy (minus friction losses.)
>
>So I think as Barry has done, you only should count friction type losses
>in a closed loop system.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 01:44:53 1997
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Subject: SMOT - Underestimating rolling friction.
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I agree that the rolling friction is underestimated.

Please notice that IF the U channel was infinitely thin (knife edge) than
we would only have rolling friction.

With a U channel that is as wide as the ball, we would have only sliding
friction.

In a practical U channel we have both the sliding and rolling friction, and
perhaps a pinching effect as well.


I PERFORMED THE FOLLOWING EXPERIMENT:

I have bought 2pcs of  12.7mm (0.5inch) wide channels, 914mm (12inch) long.
 I have configured them in a following way.

                                  
                                  
\                              /   
  \                          /    1 inch lift, 3 inch long
    \______________________/      18 degrees


In reality the inclined rams are not so steep.


The middle U channel is 914mm long and is level within 0.1mm.  The inclined
U channels are angled apx. 18deg. [ie. 25.4mm (1inch) for their 76mm
(3inch) length measured between the rolling surfaces]. Both U channels are
inclined with an accuracy of 0.1mm in respect to the horizontal channel and
each other. The joints between the channels are aligned to within 0.05mm

A 25.4mm (1inch) bearing ball (FeCNi alloy) is released from the very top
of the inclined right channel and falls down 25.4mm (1inch) along the 76mm
(3inch) inclined channel .  The ball oscillates back and fro and eventually
comes to rest after 26 one-way trips through the 914mm horizontal-level
channel.  I have made 50 trial runs with all ball sizes. The results were
repeatable to within 0.5 trips with the 25.4mm ball.

The 19mm ball (.75inch) made only 18 one-way trips. (accurate to 0.5 trips)

After polishing the aluminum U channel with a pencil graphite.  The 25.4mm
ball made 34 trips and the 19mm ball made 22 trips, however the accuracy
after the graphite polishing went down to 1 trip for both ball sizes.

For the sake of "control", I also have tried to release the balls from the
left inclined channel.  No perceivable differences were observed.

Note: the balls are traveling some distance up and down the inclined U
channels as well, less and less every oscillation.



P.S.

Now somebody please do the math of the frictional and air resistance
losses.  I am too tired for this tonight, but I bet they will be much
higher than Barry's figures.

Now what about the eddy braking ?




At 12:49 AM 5/30/97 -0500, Scott Little wrote:
>Barry, I'm actually with you in the Mundane Explanation camp (it's where I
>live...<g>).  However, I feel that something is wrong with your analysis.
>Perhaps you underestimated the rolling friction. 



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 01:46:44 1997
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Yes, eddy current braking is significant with a bulky bearing ball. A 25mm
ball has very little electrical resistance in its volume.  Don't
underestimate this effect, a 1inch cylindrical NdFeB grade 39 permanent
magnet takes 11 seconds to fall vertically inside a 3 foot-long vertical
copper pipe (schd40 wall thickness).

The eddy current losses are very likely greater than the frictional and air
resistance losses.


At 02:42 PM 5/30/97 +1000, Martin Sevior wrote:
>Barry,
>	you clearly haven't studied a SMOT ramp in person. There is a lot
>of energy dissipated through eddy currents as the ball goes through a ramp
>quickly and a lot more when it falls off the end and hits the next rail.
>
>I've set my ramp up so the ball doesn't fall off the end and let the ball
>run into it. On the first rapid pass through the system, the ball gains
>about 10 mm in height, then rapidly falls to about 3 mm in about 2
>oscillations. Thus I estimate about
>
>E = 0.005*9.8*0.007 / 2 = 2*10**-4 Joules lost through Eddy currents
>alone. Three orders of magnitude higher than your estimates. I think a
>better test of energy consumed is "height gained free of magnetic field".
>It's far easier to quantify and still conservative.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 01:53:00 1997
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From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
Subject: SMOT - Remanent ferromagnetic magnetization
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I think Barry also proposed that the ball will get progressively
magnetized, more and more until the whole SMOT effect dies.  (re: remanent
ferromagnetic magnetization)

So, how much does the ball have to get magnetized before the magnetic field
gradient between the SMOT magnets will no longer be able to pull the ball up ?

To what degree can an iron or steel ball get magnetized anyway ?  (not much
apparently or we would be using iron (or steel) to make permanent magnets !)


At 12:30 AM 5/30/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Dude..
>    The local field nullification is totally reversed by the time
>the ball is clear of the ramp! The above explaination would only be
>valid if the ball kept moving continously toward the magnets.
>
>You've said that you agree that the magnets are not losing magnetic
>strength. Therefore after a ball has approached, gone through and
>left a ramp, the magnetic fields will be *identical* to the way they
>were before the ball came. This is pretty straight forward.
>
>                                    Scott Becker
>                                    skot@compumedia.com
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 05:48:16 1997
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:46:11 -1100
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Ken Smith <ksmith@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Re: SMOT v1.02 - Linking questions
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Hi All,
        Just an update and a few observations and not a few questions.

First - what follows is not very scientific - since I am not qualified to
spout science stuff.  I am a tinkerer and watcher - not a number crunching
rocket engineer.

OK - I have got 6 ramps, four are carbon copies and two have minor
differences.  All lift, carry and drop my 22mm balls.  I now use 9 magnets a
side in a 3 * 3 array, but they are 38 * 10 * 4 ceramics and quite powerful.
I use a magnetic side poled magnetic strip as backing and all my attachments
are with hot glue. Only the outer edge magnet of the three in each block is
glued to the mag strip - the other two are held by their own attraction and
can be adjusted - more later on that.

Observations
1 :     The performance of a solitary ramp is different to that of a linked
ramp.

2 :     The sideways balance is almost impossible to get exactly right at
the point of contruction, but sliding the inner two layers minutely fore and
aft will make a big difference to the lateral balance and is a valid method
of "centerline control".

3 :     You need something to kick the ball forward on the "drop" - either a
contoured ramp end (a la Greg) or a small piece of plastic lip or similar
glued onto the ramp 1/2 ball radius below the ramp rolling edge.  This
converts the bounce to a forward shove to engage the next ramp.  

4 :     Ramps that will not disengage in isolation work well in sequence.
This means that you can effectively get more lift out of ramps 2 ..3 ..4
etc than you can from ramp 1.

5 :     Sideways balance is absolutely vital.  I find moving the whole side
assembly too coarse for accurate balance.  But sliding a single magnet a
fraction will achieve wonders.  

6 :     Very small variations in side magnet spacing makes a world of
difference to the ramp's lifting ability. But the closer the sides are to
the ball, the more touchy the side balance adjustment is (obvious really).

7 :     I use a slightly curved end edge to my ramps.  If the ball will just
go there and hang - and not go to either side - I know it will disengage
perfectly when linked.  


I have built a pretty little railway track of 3/16 copper pipe that will do
the return journey for me, but the rub is I need 25mm of lift - 30 would be
better - to do the return journey.   Currently my best ramps give me a 7-9mm
improvement in potential on the previous, but I need 10-12 mm to totally
disengage so I am looking for 35-40mm of total lift.  I have six working
ramps, but two of them are real spastics and they get rebuilt tomorrow.  If
I can get all my ramps performing to equal the best I will get the lift I
need tomorrow and then the railway lines are attached.  Then we shall see.

I cannot see how, as per Greg's contest, I can get progressive improvement
from the ramps - all after No 1 seem to be equal.  However there are still
some aspects to linking that I don't really understand (at all).

I have a distinct impression that the balls get warm in use.  This is most
probably from handling.  However a cold ball from the box seems to work
better than a warm one.  I suspect this is nothing to get excited about and
is probably a function of skin oils contaminating the surface and
temperature induction from my hands.  However it does seem strange.  I can
certainly not detect any residual magnetism on a ball bearing - even after
prolonged use.  All these questions will be answered soon though when I can
get my six ramps working and avoid the handling problem.

Anyone who still thinks this is a fluke should go and get professional
advice.  When you see the 22mm balls clacking merrily through the ramps and
popping out of the end to freedom - with a significant potential improvement
- let alone the kinetic extra, then you really have to wonder what is going
on here.....

Oh it's a flea bite in real terms, but that doesn't matter.  I showed the
wife the SMOT today (she was moaning as to why I hadn't cut the lawn). I
showed her
a six ramp lash up, but the exit was obviously well above the entry and
there was a positive throw out on the last exit.  Her first comment was -
"That's not too clever - the magnets are doing the work."  - Out of the
mouth of babes ......

But I distinctly remember being told that permenant magnets cannot do real
work. It defies some law or other <g>.  Now that is obviously not true.
This I can live with - but what really worries me is that I am starting to
wonder what else I was told, as an absolute truth, is also wrong...

Ken




          
             
           
                      Ken Smith (ksmith@ihug.co.nz)
                   http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~ksmith
          


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 06:09:19 1997
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:04:25 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Bob Horst wrote:
> 
> Well, I was getting tired of waiting for my magnets to arrive from
> Edmund Scientific, so I decided to try the Tim Taylor school of SMOT
> design.  I figured that what Greg really needed was MORE POWER, 

Not so Tool Time Tim.  Bedford Industry Magnets are not needed here. 
Design and an understanding of the effects are the keys.

> so I
> picked up a couple of magnetic tool holders.  Each has a pair of foot
> long magnets separated by a square iron bar, and each is supposed to
> lift 150 lbs.  No wimpy fridge magnets here.
> 
> So I built a SMOT with two of these bad boys, and got ready to try it
> out.  After prying my fingers from between the magnets, I fastened them
> more securely to the board.  Then, after carefully pointing it away from
> the windows, I loaded the .5 inch ball bearing for a test fire.

It not the fire in the belly that important here, more mental effort
please.
 
> After a few adjustments, I was able to get the ball climb about 9mm,
> then drop to another U channel and roll away.  But in tilting the other
> U channel up, the best I could do was get it to roll up to within 3mm of
> its original starting height.  I did not polish the rails much or work
> on S-curves for the drop at the end, which would improve these results
> some.

I can get over 30mm with wimpy fridge magnets.  Wimps win?

> But it looks like there is no clear evidence of OU in this setup. Even
> with these big magnets, multiple ramps would be needed to have any
> chance of closing the loop.
> 
> Oh well, back to waiting for the Edmund package...
> 
> -- Bob

Hi Bob,

Good results from bad magnets.  Your tool bar are like fridge magnets
and have N and S facing magnets into the ramp.  You will get some
coupling to the ball, but most of the flux goes from one pole to the
other.

Keep building, Keep thinking!

Stop watching Tool Time Tim!


Hope this helps,
 Greg,


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 09:29:30 1997
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Message-ID: <01BC6CD9.229D2BC0@ristra.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: hot SMOT
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:09:09 -0700
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Epitaxy wrote:

 >To: Dan Quickert
 >If you have the same kind of bearing ball that has not been heated yet,
 >compare the force it takes to separate the unheated ball VERSUS the 
heated
 >ball from THE SAME magnet.  Also notice how much easier it is to dent the
 >heated ball with a hammer.
 >
 >Heating the ball however has a negative side effect on the friction
 >efficiency.  Firstly because the smooth surface is oxidized and becomes
 >rough, secondly the mechanical harness decreases and that increases the
 >friction against the U channel.  Your observed higher SMOT efficiency 
comes
 >from the good polishing job you did and the fact that the increased
 >"magnetic softness" outweighs the mechanical friction increase.
 >

Hi Epitaxy,

Right. I was aware of all that. Assumed it was common knowledge what the 
heating would do to the steel and its magnetic properties. Was trying to 
keep my message short and to the point :-).

Dan


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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 11:18:15 1997
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 14:14:42 -0700
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References: <Pine.OSF.3.95.970529164020.20511A-100000@tauon.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU>
			 <338D2F83.369B@microtronics.com.au> <l03102800afb39bc2b7f0@[207.147.196.227]> <338E32DE.6C4D@math.ucla.edu> <338E7A2C.1CD5@microtronics.com.au>
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Greg Watson wrote:
> 
> Barry Merriman wrote:

<snip>
 
> > Thus, even if one assembles the closed loop system and it
> > goes for ~ 15 hours, there would not really be anything too
> > amazing, i.e. beyond the amounts of energy seeminly available
> > to drive such things.
> 
> Not too amazing, you must be kidding.

Why must he be kidding Greg?  You call this device an over unity toy,
while maintaining a guarded stance on the subject of the device actually
being
over unity?

Is it, or is it not over unity?  Have you accounted for the energy is
placing, then restraining the ball before its allowed to move up the
ramp?

If it's over unity, drive a load with it, however small.
 
> Where is there another example of a magnet powered device doing actual
> work!

Well, if I hold two opposed magnets in proximity, and place a weight on
one while the other remains fixed, I can release the magnet, and low and
behold, the magnet appears to have moved my weight for me.

The same is true for springs of course, but this is not what is meant
when we say 'magnets cannot do work'.

> You have stated in the past that this was impossible.
> Now you seem to be trying to claim the effect is not worthy of further
> study.

Greg, I did not read anywhere in this posting that the device is not
worthy
of further study, yuour reading this into the posting in my opinion.

As you yourself have written, we learn from failures as well as from
sucesses.
 
> Worried about your own research program Barry?

Cheap shot Greg.  Play nice.

> > As I said, one check on the above would be to start the ball
> > at rest from *the position of max field strength*, held there
> > for a while to let it cancel whatever field it can, so it
> > cannot gain further energy by diamagnetic cancellation of
> > the field.

That holding of the ball, thats energy going into the system!
So, are we over unity or not?  Where are the energy in vs. energy out
measurments?

> > One extremeley important thing to note is that the Kinetic energy of
> > the ball is only K = 5*10^-7 v^2 Joules (v in cm/sec)---this is TINY!
> > We see the magnetic fields are perfectly capable of supplying
> > 1000 x this much with only a small perturbation of the overall field.
> > Also, the enrgy associated with the vertical motion of the ball
> > is U = 0.001 h Joules (h in cm)---this is also modest compared
> > to the readily available field energy ~ 0.005 J.
> >
> > Thus---pay attention here, this is the punch line---the energies
> > of all the *observed motion* (motion along track, and vertical
> > elevation)---are all *SMALL* compared to readily available
> > field energy in the vicinity of the ball. And, the energy
> > going to the dissipation mechanisms is all small compared to this
> > out time of ~ 10 hours.
> >
> > Thus, I see no reason to expect that it is anything other
> > than converting the energy from local field nullification
> > into vertical and horizontal motion of the ball, and the
> > the dissipative effects don't really impact this for 10's
> > of hours. A SMOT running for 100-1000 hours would be needed
> > to counter even my *minimal mechanism above* (it would run
> > almost forever--10,000 hours---if it were instead somehow
> > demagnetizing the magnetics, which is not what I suggested!).
> >
> > (Or, as Bill B. said, make a SMOT with about 100 x the friction
> > so that running for 1 hour would be meaningful).

Or drive a small load, of any size!  An engine that just overcame
internal frixtion, but stalled with a load is useless.

> > I think the Mystery of the SMOT is begining to fade rapidly, though
> > it may remain difficult to pin down the precise, detailed physics of
> > the magnet-ball interaction. I encourage Greg to devote his
> > life to this, though, if he so chooses.
> 
> You are truely, really unreal.  Get a real life Barry.

Get real Greg, over unity or not?  By how much?  If it's over unity on
the balls first pass thrrough the circuit, then the second pass should
be a bit quicker still, or we should have some excess energy left to
drive a load.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 11:59:44 1997
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From: HLafonte@aol.com
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 14:57:17 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970530145708_1043325352@emout14.mail.aol.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Scale up ramp
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Greg,
 In theory, could you scale up the ramp to say, a length of five feet long,
with a lift of one inch? Then you could use a plastic tube to return the
ball. One ramp, one ball, one return path, could it be done ?
Butch LaFonte

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 12:00:53 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:38:09 -0400 (EDT)
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Subject: Re : Smot Phase 2 Contest
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On 30/05/1997 15:35:24  , you wrote :

<< 
 I will give away a SMOT ramp kit to the first 2 people who can show 4
 linked SMOT ramps with a final lift at least 2 times the original and a
 roll away.  Photos required.
  >>

Wonderfull Greg, a RMOD kit for the winner that is a good idea !!  :-)


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 15:39:51 1997
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:36:17 -0700
From: Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
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Subject: Can magnets do work?
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After reading a few off the list posts I have received, I thought I
might offer this little thought experiment in a bit more detail:

Take two mangnets, and fix one to a low friction work surface.

Place the other magnet in close proximity, opposing (repelling) the
fixed magnet.  Release the magent, and watch is slide away from the
fixed magnet.

Ok, fine, now place a small weight on the sliding magnet, and move in
back into opposed proximity to the fixed magnet.

Once again, release the magnet, and note that it again slides away from
the fixed magnet, usually turning around 180 degrees, and then being
drawn back to the fixed magnet.

This reversal can easily be prevented by rails or guides of course.

But we just moved the weight over a distance, and work WAS clearly done!

Was this work done by the magnets?  No, not at all!  The magnets did no
work here.  To make this clear, lets try another experiment:

Replace the magets with compression springs.  One is fixed, while the
second is free.

First, we bring the springs together along their compression axis and
compress them.  When released, the  free spring flys away from the fixed
spring.  Next, we place a weight in line with the springs, and compress
them.  Once released, the weight is moved as the springs release the
stored tension.

Again, work was done, as our weight was moved over a distance.

But in this case it is a bit more clear that the springs stored the
energy used to compress them.  The springs did not supply the energy
used to move the weight.

This is the same situation as when the magnets moved apart when released
while the free magnet carried the weight.  The magnets did not supply
the energy used to move the weight, and did not do the work.

Now I do realize that these examples are quite different than Greg's
device!  Lets stop cutting bait, and get on with the fishing:

But when we place the ball on the start of the ramp, we are putting
energy into the system.  We release the ball, adding a bit more energy.

The ball goes up the ramp, and gravity returns the ball to the original
level, where it finds another ramp.  If the ramp added energy to the
ball, it should travel up the second identical ramp a bit faster than it
had before.  After a few circuits through the ramps, it should be moving
quite quickly if each trip up the ramp actually added energy to the
motion of the ball.

This added velocity could in theory be used to drive an external load of
some kind. (by flux cutting, etc.)  

But if the ball moves up the ramps at a constant speed on each circuit
through the ramps, where is our energy gain from the magnets 'doing
work'?

It would be quite a conincidence if the frictional and other losses were
always equal to the energy gain, resulting in a contant average ball
velocity.  Such a coincidence would be far more remarkable in light of
the different materials and methods used to build Greg's ramps.  It
would also mean that the device was NOT over unity, but operating right
at unity (1:1).  This would preclude driving an external load of course.

If it's over unity, it MUST deliver this 'excess' energy to an external
load, not dissapate it on internal losses.

So, in Greg's ramps, are the magnets doing the work of moving the ball
up the ramp, or are they translating the input energy into the balls
motion?

In a closed loop device, is there any evidence of the balls gaining net
velocity over time on each circuit through the system?  If I place a
load, however small, on the balls motion, can I extract this energy that
some claim is being supplied by the magnets?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 16:14:44 1997
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Message-ID: <01BC6D14.5291C670@ristra.ucdavis.edu>
From: Dan Quickert <dequickert@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'freenrg-l@eskimo.com'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Can magnets do work?
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:12:49 -0700
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Bob Shannon wrote:

[snipped - a nice experiment with opposing poles , magnet-as-spring 
analogy]

OK, Bob, what about this:

You're walking on a flat plain, carrying a large steel ball, say 1" 
diameter, in your pocket. You encounter a large object that's on the ground 
several meters away, and feel a strange attraction to it <g>. It turns out 
to be a huge NIB magnet, a meter in diameter. Taking the ball out of your 
pocket, you struggle to restrain its movement toward the magnet. You place 
the ball on the ground, still restraining it. You let go. The ball races 
toward the magnet, hits it hard, puts a large chip in the surface, and 
sticks there rather permanently.

Who/what did the work of moving that ball from you to the magnet?

and

[snip]
 >Now I do realize that these examples are quite different than Greg's
 >device!  Lets stop cutting bait, and get on with the fishing:
 >
 >But when we place the ball on the start of the ramp, we are putting
 >energy into the system.  We release the ball, adding a bit more energy.
[snip]

Huh? How does releasing the ball add energy?

[snip]
 >After a few circuits through the ramps, it should be moving
 >quite quickly if each trip up the ramp actually added energy to the
 >motion of the ball.
[snip]

There is a limit to the resultant velocity in any given ramp. At some point 
the ramp will actually attenuate the incoming velocity.

[snip]
 >If it's over unity, it MUST deliver this 'excess' energy to an external
 >load, not dissapate it on internal losses.
[snip]

How about placing a microphone near the ramp, and collecting the energy 
produced by the sound waves as the ball rumbles by? ;-)

Dan Quickert

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 16:26:17 1997
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Message-ID: <338F6149.7D97@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 08:52:49 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Hi All,

Well it is good to see so much real work and thought being done.

One word of caution.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE build your first two SMOT ramps like the plans I
have provided.  They work and will link.  I guarantee it!  There are
MANY design choices and variables I had to go through to get the device
to work.  Your first SMOT ramp is NOT the place or time for you to do
this.

When you get the ramps to link and you see for yourself that they work,
THEN go and do it any way you want.  


Greg Watson's SMOT Rules of Testing and Development :

  1) Duplicate MY design.

  2) Test MY design.

  3) Report on how My design works.

  4) Build YOUR design.

  5) Report on how YOUR design works.


Please guys, do it this way.

Really its the only way to progress the work.  Anything else will lead
to claims, cross claims and we will all be drawn off the point.

And the point is :

 BUILD SMOT RAMPS AS PER MY DESIGN AND VERIFY THEY WORK AS CLAIMED.


Best Regards and Good Building,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 16:38:43 1997
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From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705302336.TAA25426@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: SMOT works like this: 
To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com (science)
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:36:35 -0400 (EDT)
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When you think about it, there is only one place that the SMOT could get
it's energy from: the Earth.  The magnets pull the ball up, the Earth's
gravity pulls it down, the magnets pull it up, ...

YOu get the idea.  I think that this might EVEN cover a continues loop. 
Just remember, this is slowing down the earth!  Run it for 6 billion years
and the earth might loss half a second (:

Let me know what you think.

Andrew


-- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 16:42:56 1997
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From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Bob Shannon wrote:
> 
> After reading a few off the list posts I have received, I thought I
> might offer this little thought experiment in a bit more detail:
> 
> Take two mangnets, and fix one to a low friction work surface.
> 
> Place the other magnet in close proximity, opposing (repelling) the
> fixed magnet.  Release the magent, and watch is slide away from the
> fixed magnet.
> 
> Ok, fine, now place a small weight on the sliding magnet, and move in
> back into opposed proximity to the fixed magnet.
> 
> Once again, release the magnet, and note that it again slides away from
> the fixed magnet, usually turning around 180 degrees, and then being
> drawn back to the fixed magnet.
> 
> This reversal can easily be prevented by rails or guides of course.
> 
> But we just moved the weight over a distance, and work WAS clearly done!
> 
> Was this work done by the magnets?  No, not at all!  The magnets did no
> work here.  To make this clear, lets try another experiment:
> 
> Replace the magets with compression springs.  One is fixed, while the
> second is free.
> 
> First, we bring the springs together along their compression axis and
> compress them.  When released, the  free spring flys away from the fixed
> spring.  Next, we place a weight in line with the springs, and compress
> them.  Once released, the weight is moved as the springs release the
> stored tension.
> 
> Again, work was done, as our weight was moved over a distance.
> 
> But in this case it is a bit more clear that the springs stored the
> energy used to compress them.  The springs did not supply the energy
> used to move the weight.
> 
> This is the same situation as when the magnets moved apart when released
> while the free magnet carried the weight.  The magnets did not supply
> the energy used to move the weight, and did not do the work.
> 
> Now I do realize that these examples are quite different than Greg's
> device!  Lets stop cutting bait, and get on with the fishing:

They have nothing at all to do with the physics that drives a SMO ramp!

> But when we place the ball on the start of the ramp, we are putting
> energy into the system.  We release the ball, adding a bit more energy.

NO ............. a thousand times NO.

Bob, have you actually built a SMOT ramp?

When you do so, you will see that this ststement is incorrect.
 
> The ball goes up the ramp, and gravity returns the ball to the original
> level, where it finds another ramp.  If the ramp added energy to the
> ball, it should travel up the second identical ramp a bit faster than it
> had before.  After a few circuits through the ramps, it should be moving
> quite quickly if each trip up the ramp actually added energy to the
> motion of the ball.

Only if the added energy was greater than the frictional losses.

If you build a SMOT ramp and play with the adjustments, you will learn
that most of the energy gain in the ramp is lost in using the mag wall
at the end of the ramp to push the ball back into the exit rails. 
Others will verify this.

Using a sharp drop off, the SMOT ramps are sort of self regulating.

The improved Phase 2 ramps with their "S" curved exits are another thing
again.  With these, we can actually hang onto more of the balls energy.

Please Bob, before you say any more, BUILD 2 SMOT RAMPS.  Then comment.

> This added velocity could in theory be used to drive an external load of
> some kind. (by flux cutting, etc.)
> 
> But if the ball moves up the ramps at a constant speed on each circuit
> through the ramps, where is our energy gain from the magnets 'doing
> work'?
> 
> It would be quite a conincidence if the frictional and other losses were
> always equal to the energy gain, resulting in a contant average ball
> velocity.  Such a coincidence would be far more remarkable in light of
> the different materials and methods used to build Greg's ramps.  It
> would also mean that the device was NOT over unity, but operating right
> at unity (1:1).  This would preclude driving an external load of course.

As I said before, the way I designed the exit in the easy to build Phase
1 design makes the ramps sort of self regulating.  

Don't believe me?  

BUILD a Phase 1 SMOT ramp and see for yourself!

> 
> If it's over unity, it MUST deliver this 'excess' energy to an external
> load, not dissapate it on internal losses.
> 
> So, in Greg's ramps, are the magnets doing the work of moving the ball
> up the ramp, or are they translating the input energy into the balls
> motion?

Answer the question yourself.  Build a SMOT ramp.

> In a closed loop device, is there any evidence of the balls gaining net
> velocity over time on each circuit through the system?  If I place a
> load, however small, on the balls motion, can I extract this energy that
> some claim is being supplied by the magnets?

Hi Bob,

Build a SMOT ramp before you go on further.  
They REALLY do work.  
The Phase 1 design is self regulating.  
Honest!


My Very Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 16:45:56 1997
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From: "Science wig. sig." <xx053@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Message-Id: <199705302345.TAA26073@big.seorf.ohiou.edu>
Subject: For god's sake, what is a magnet?
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Can someone PLEASE tell all of us laymen what a magnet really is.  What is
doing the pulling?  With gravity it is (probably) the gravatron.  It there
a magnetron?  What!?


-- 
+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                                                      |
|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
|                                                                      |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 16:49:49 1997
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Message-ID: <338F6658.4394@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:14:24 +0930
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References: <Pine.OSF.3.95.970529164020.20511A-100000@tauon.ph.unimelb.EDU.AU>
				 <338D2F83.369B@microtronics.com.au> <l03102800afb39bc2b7f0@[207.147.196.227]> <338E32DE.6C4D@math.ucla.edu> <338E7A2C.1CD5@microtronics.com.au> <338F5D57.38BE@math.ucla.edu>
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Barry Merriman wrote:
> 
> Greg Watson wrote:
> >
> 
> > Where is there another example of a magnet powered device doing
> > actual work!
> 
> Take refrigerator magnet. Hold 0.5 cm from refrigerator. Release.
> Magnet leaps to stick to fridge. Work was done. QED.
> Do you think no one has ever noticed this capability before?
> 
> > You have stated in the past that this was impossible.
> 
> I stated no such thing. Refer to above. It is painfully
> obvious that magnets can do work on things. In particular,
> they atract/repel other magnets, so work is done.
> 
> > Worried about your own research program Barry?
> 
> Yes Greg. Your magnetic perpetual motion machine really
> has me shook up. I'm resigning my position to start a
> worm farm. :-)

Why, we need you here.

Barry, just build a ramp and PLAY with it.

> --
> Barry Merriman

Hi Barry,

Build a ramp and play with it.

You might learn something.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 17:22:40 1997
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Subject: Re: Can magnets do work?
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NO COINCIDENCE AT ALL.

C'mon.  It is quite obvious that the ball will reach certain TERMINAL
VELOCITY because the eddy current braking and air resistance increase with
speed.

Soooo... since the losses are dependent on speed, they will very quickly
reach an equilibrium.  Just like a skydiver who reaches 160 miles per hour
and does not accelerate any faster although the gravity is pulling on him
with the same force as in the beginning.

If it wasn't for this simple relationship the ball would go faster and
faster and faster..................



At 06:36 PM 5/30/97 -0700, you wrote:
>It would be quite a conincidence if the frictional and other losses were
>always equal to the energy gain, resulting in a contant average ball
>velocity.  Such a coincidence would be far more remarkable in light of
>the different materials and methods used to build Greg's ramps.  It
>would also mean that the device was NOT over unity, but operating right
>at unity (1:1).  This would preclude driving an external load of course.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 17:31:28 1997
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Subject: Re: SMOT works like this: 
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I think that Greg's next stage device, the RMOD, is NOT utilizing gravity
and would work in gravityless environment.

Right Greg ?


At 07:36 PM 5/30/97 -0400, you wrote:
>When you think about it, there is only one place that the SMOT could get
>it's energy from: the Earth.  The magnets pull the ball up, the Earth's
>gravity pulls it down, the magnets pull it up, ...
>
>YOu get the idea.  I think that this might EVEN cover a continues loop. 
>Just remember, this is slowing down the earth!  Run it for 6 billion years
>and the earth might loss half a second (:
>
>Let me know what you think.
>
>Andrew
>
>
>-- 
>+-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+
>|   Free Stuff page: http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/hide/free.html  |
>|   Science page:    http://www.seorf.ohiou.edu/~xx053/                |
>+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
>|                                                                      |
>|   "Nothing Unreal Exists" - Kir-kin-tha's First Law of Metaphysics   |     
>|   ** Information is power, use it wisely.   **                       |
>|   ** No matter where you go, there you are. **                       |
>|                                                                      |
>+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 17:39:49 1997
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From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Can magnets do work?
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On Sat, 31 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote:

> Bob Shannon wrote:
> > The ball goes up the ramp, and gravity returns the ball to the original
> > level, where it finds another ramp.  If the ramp added energy to the
> > ball, it should travel up the second identical ramp a bit faster than it
> > had before.  After a few circuits through the ramps, it should be moving
> > quite quickly if each trip up the ramp actually added energy to the
> > motion of the ball.
> 
> Only if the added energy was greater than the frictional losses.

Yes.  And besides "rolling friction" and inductive braking, there is also
demagnetization/remagnetization loss in the steel of the ball (also called
hysterisis loss.) My gut feel is that this path for energy loss is greater
than inductive braking.  Shifting the permanent magnetization of the steel
ball will slow the ball and heat it.  One way to reduce hysterisis loss: 
don't use steel, use a ferromag material which cannot be permanently
magnetized.  Pure iron for example.  I've heard that steel with extremely
high carbon content is similar.  I believe that the alloys used in
transformer laminations are optimized for reduced hysterisis loss. 
However, perhaps the o/u effect involves hysterisis in the ball, and a
pure iron ball actually will not run in closed-loop mode.

> If you build a SMOT ramp and play with the adjustments, you will learn
> that most of the energy gain in the ramp is lost in using the mag wall
> at the end of the ramp to push the ball back into the exit rails. 
> Others will verify this.

This is interesting.  Why should this be?  Since fields are conservative,
the ball should "bounce off" the exit field, and any slowing that occurs
should produce a speedup in a later part of the ball's trajectory.  That
is, unless there is a big dollop of hysterisis loss because of the
nonlinear fields magnetizing the steel ball.

> > It would be quite a conincidence if the frictional and other losses were
> > always equal to the energy gain, resulting in a contant average ball
> > velocity.

I have to disagree.  Physical systems with low power and high friction
will accelerate only up to a speed where frictional loss is equal to
excess energy input rate.  If friction was constant, then the rate of
energy loss increases with increasing speed.  The system will "magically"
find the special speed where power loss equals power input.  (Imagine a
wind-up toy boat driving across a bathtub; it doesn't speed up and up,
instead it immediately settles to a constant speed.)

In Greg's device, the average speed should remain constant, but if the
s-curves are added, a new, higher speed is attained.  If the rails are
then polished, yet a higher speed results.  If friction could be reduced
by orders of magnitude (needle-bearing disk spinning in a vacuum?), the
ball speed might be very very high.


.....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623
EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/
Seattle, WA 98117  billb@eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 18:09:31 1997
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Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 18:02:33 -0700
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From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
Subject: Re: SMOT - Underestimating rolling friction.
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My 1inch ball weighs 66.1 grams, the .75inch ball weighs 27.9 grams.
Pretty close to your estimate.  I should have included these numbers
originally.

My little math yields similar results.  The 66.1gram ball at the height of
25.4mm represents 0.0164 Joules of potential energy.  In the unlubricated
case the ball makes 26 one-way trips through the horizontal channel (914mm
each trip) so the total traveled distance is apx. 24 meters.

It can be safely said that 24meter of the U channel dissipates 0.0164
Joules of energy with 1inch ball.

In other words 1 Joule of energy should propel the 1inch ball for 1449
meters (almost a mile)


At 05:31 PM 5/30/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Epitaxy wrote:
>> 
>> rolling friction is underestimated.
>> 
>
>I agree. Actually, its not rolling friction that is underestimated,
>since I used the real numbers for such things. Its just that the 
>real system can also slide, etc. I was considering the most 
>ideal system, as a starting point. Also, rolling in a channel
>may differ from rolling on a plane...friction is slightly complicated.
>
>> Now somebody please do the math of the frictional and air resistance
>> losses.  
>
>Well, if you put the ball through a 1 = 2.5 cm inch drop, 
>you ball weighs about 60 grams (assuming 7 gm/cc) so it has an energy of
>m g h = 0.06 10 0.025 = 0.015 Joules. The initial velocity is
>( 3/10 of the energy is in rotational kinetic energy)
>(1 + 3/10) 1/2 m v^2 = 0.015 J => v = SQRT(0.015/(0.65 * 0.06)) = .6
>
>=> v = 60 cm/sec. (initially, of course)
>
>Since you said the ball went about 34 feet = 10 m before coming to 
>rest (polished and lubed case), the duration must have been 
>on the order of 10 m/ 0.6m/s ~ 20 seconds.
>
>You can ignore the air resistance losses, I showed (and the formulas
>for that were from well known experiment/theory) The power loss
>was like 4*10^-8 v Watts, so here it is 2*10^-6 Watts, and during
>the ~ 20 second rund thius would dissipate about 0.0001 J = 1% of the 
>energy.
>
>So, we can get the effective coefficient of friction from
>
>F.distance = Energy
>and
>F = mu_eff m g   (mu = coeff of fric)
>
>=>
>
>mu_eff = E/(d m g)
>       = 0.0015 J/ ( 10 m * 0.06kg * 10 m/s^2) 
>       = 0.0015/(6)
>
>       = 0.0025
>
>This is pretty in line with standard theory, actually, which
>said rolling is ~1000 less than sliding. We did not get the 
>10 x benefit from the lubrication, though---only a 50% improvement.
>
>However: Note this is just the effective friciton of your
>test set up, which is probably not pure rolling, esp due to your
>side ramps. This number would also be consistent with sliding 
>0.1% of the time with mu ~ 1 (say when it hit the sides) and 
>a rolling friction coeff that is 0.0001 (the figure I used)
>the rest of the time. So its tricky to tell what frictional
>mode is dominant.
>
>The moral I want everyone to take away from this is: measure
>the friction of your track system experimentally (without
>the magnets present) to get some baseline. But note the
>presence of the magnets can *also* change the frictional losses,
>if it changes the proportions of rolling and sliding motion---which
>is very likely.
>
>> 
>> Now what about the eddy braking ?
>> 
>
>Probably important. A bit tricky to estimate---but why don't
>you just measure it on your same track setup by placing magnets.
>
>-- 
>Barry Merriman
>Research Scientist, UCSD Fusion Energy Research Program
>Asst. Prof., UCLA Dept. of Math
>email: barry@math.ucla.edu   homepage: http://www.math.ucla.edu/~barry
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 18:57:15 1997
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From: HLafonte@aol.com
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:54:00 -0400 (EDT)
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---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    So much going on, I don't know were to start!
Date:    97-05-30 21:34:40 EDT
From:    HLafonte
To:      sunbrite@mymail.net

Mike,
    The developments of the last month with this device of Greg's has been
what a lot of people have been waiting many years for as you already know. I
don't know of a device that has ever made a magnet do work in cycle fashion.
Over the years people have said if anyone would be able to get a magnet to do
work then the magnet would lose it magnetism. The other school of thought is
that the magnet would not lose it magnetism and the energy for the work done
would come from a source we still don't understand the true nature of. Well
the answer people have been waiting hundred's of years for it about to be
told. The machine that can make a magnet do work in a continious fashion is
here and now it's time to find out if a whole new area of physics is about to
open up or if the magnets just lose their strength and roll over and die. If
they do then there are going to be a lot of broken hearts out there and
hundrend's of years of work done in everything from high tech labs, to late
nights at the kitchen table, has all been done in vain.
    Their is one more possibilty, that is that the magnets do lose their
strength, but in the process do more work than the amount of work done to
magnetize the magnet material. Now that would be strange, it would be like
going to get your magnets recharged ( like the gas station ) and then getting
more energy out of the magnets than you put in at the charger, but never
knowing where the extra energy is coming from! 
    The device I built is, I believe one of a million different ways to build
these ou devices using Gregs v shape. A rotary 
 configuration is, I believe the easy way to get work out of it, but the
hardest to build by an individual. I will put pictures on the list of my
first proof of concept of Greg's device when I can figure out how to do it.
I've only been using computers 15 years now, so bear with me! I have drawn a
rotary layout I'll put on also. I asked Greg about scaling up the ramp to 5
feet long with just a one inch lift and a plastic tube to return the ball. I
haven't heard from him though.
Draw some angles for one inch lift at one foot, and five foot, ramp lengths,
and see the difference in force required to pull the ball up the ramp. The
one foot angle at a five foot lenght would lift to 7.5 inches!
Let me know what you think, 
Butch LaFonte, Birmingham, Alabama USA
  

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 19:32:51 1997
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Greg,
    I have a book by Lester R, Moskowitz called, Permanent Magnet Design and
Application Handbook. He states that one of the first things that a person
who is handling permanent magnets for the first time ask's is, when they pull
two magnets apart they pull each other back together again and if they do
this sequence over and over again the magnets don't lose any strength and
they ask where does the energy come from to keep them pulling each other back
together again? He says it should be quite clear to them what is going on.
When they let the magnets pull each other together the magnets do work and a
certain amout of the magnets energy is reduced. What they don't see going on
is, that when they pull the magnets apart they do work on the magnets and
restore that lost energy back to the magnets.
   If this is not so, then every time we pull two magnets apart we are
increasing the total energy of the magnets and if we were to do this a
million times then the magnets would be so full of energy they would be about
to " burst at the seams".
    What scares me is if what he says is true then every time you got the
magnets to do work,  then to maintain the original energy level of the
magnets, you would half to return that work in total to the magnets and if
any of that work was done external of the system, and not returned to the
system in full, then the total energy of the magnets drops.
   Please tell me this is not so and why!
Butch LaFonte

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 21:06:29 1997
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Message-ID: <338F9C30.2C12@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:04:08 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Subject: SMOT Kits and SMOT Phases update (31st May, 1997)
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Hi All,


Here are the updated SMOT Kit and SMOT Phases details :


********************


  Price :
    
    $150 Australian Dollars via International Bank Cheque
    made payable to Greg Watson Consulting.

    ~ 115 US Dollars,
       70 UK Pounds,
      660 French Francs,
      158 Canadian Dollars,
     3975 Belgium Francs,
      195 German Marks,
    13200 Japanese Yen,
      165 New Zealand Dollars,
      875 Swedish Krona,
   192000 Italian Lira
     1350 Austrian Schillings
      160 Swish Francs
       
    Please remit funds via an International Bank Cheque in Australian
Dollars.


********************


  Where to send for your SMOT Kit :

    Greg Watson Consulting,
    8 Brabham Grove,
    Aberfolye Park, 5159,
    South Australia,
    Australia.


  Contact Details :
     
     Home / Business / PC Fax .......... 61 8 8270 2737

     E-Mail ............................ gwatson@microtronics.com.au


********************


  What you will get for your $150 dollars :

    4 x Heat formed perspex bases (Numbered, dated and signed my me),
    4 x Linking ramps with "S" curve exits,
    1 x Linking ramp with 90 deg exit (Rollaway / Rollaround use),
    8 x Assembled Magnet Arrays,
    4 x Steel Balls,
    8 x Dress Making Pins,
    1 x Instruction Manual,
    1 x Frameable "Certificate of Authenticity",
    1 x Photo of ME with the 4 linked SMOT ramps,

    The SMOT kits are "Exec Desk" Quality.  
    One kit will produce 4 "Exec Desk" Toys.


********************


  Delivery :

    Via international postal air mail.


********************


  My Personal Guarantee :
    
    Assuming that the ramps are placed on a flat level surface, I
    Greg Watson personal guarantee that :
 
     1) The 4 SMOT ramps will work as individual ramps.  A ball
        statring at rest will climb the ramp and drop out.  

        start at 0mm, climb to 12mm, drop to 0mm, (Ramp 1)

>>>>>>> This is Phase 1 of SMOT development and testing.


     2) The 4 SMOT ramps will link and deliver a ball starting
        at rest to the end of the 4th linked ramp and drop out.

        start at 0mm, climb to 12mm, drop to 0mm, (Ramp 1)
        start at 0mm, climb to 12mm, drop to 0mm, (Ramp 2)
        start at 0mm, climb to 12mm, drop to 0mm, (Ramp 3)
        start at 0mm, climb to 12mm, drop to 0mm. (Ramp 4)

>>>>>>> This is Phase 2 of SMOT development and testing.


  If your SMOT kit can't do this, I will refund your money.


********************


  Additional claims :

    Depending on your skill in adjusting the ramps and their 
     linking, you should expect to achieve the following :

    1) That the 4 linked ramps can be placed on a base board 
       that will elevate the ramps at an angle and achieve a 
       final ramp height at least twice the original height.
       The use of a board allows gradual increase of the ramp
       heights while you learn to power up the ramps.

       start at 0mm, climb to 15mm, drop to 3mm, (Ramp 1)
       start at 3mm, climb to 18mm, drop to 6mm, (Ramp 2)
       start at 6mm, climb to 21mm, drop to 9mm, (Ramp 3)
       start at 9mm, climb to 24mm, drop to 0mm. (Ramp 4)

>>>>>> This is Phase 3 of SMOT development and testing.


    2) That with the tilted linking achieved, the ball on
       exiting the final ramp will fall to the entry level and
       roll away from the ramp assemblies (staying at the entry
       level).  (This is the first OU claim).

>>>>>> This is Phase 4 of SMOT development and testing.


    3) That with the rollaway achieved, a rollaround using plastic
       tubing will allow the ball to return to the start.  (This is 
       the second OU claim)

>>>>>> This is Phase 5 of SMOT development and testing.


    4) That with the rollaround achieved, the ball will re-enter the
       first ramp and repeat the process.  (This is the third OU claim)

>>>>>> This is Phase 6 and final stage of SMOT development and testing.


********************


I can't guarantee that YOU will achieve all of the above.  
To do so will depend on how good you get in adjusting the magnets.  
Many others will support my claim that getting the adjustments right can
require hours of fiddling or minutes.  
It all depends on how much you understand the dynamics of the ramps.  
The more you play, the more you understand and the adjustments become
second nature.


-----------------------------------------------------------------


Web sites who display this offer for at least 3 months will receive a
FREE SMOT Kit.  If you have already purchased a SMOT kit, I will refund
your money.

I will have photos of the finished SMOT kits available with-in a week.


Best Regards, Good Smoting to all,
 Greg


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 21:25:37 1997
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William Beaty wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 31 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote:
> 
> > Bob Shannon wrote:
> > > The ball goes up the ramp, and gravity returns the ball to the original
> > > level, where it finds another ramp.  If the ramp added energy to the
> > > ball, it should travel up the second identical ramp a bit faster than it
> > > had before.  After a few circuits through the ramps, it should be moving
> > > quite quickly if each trip up the ramp actually added energy to the
> > > motion of the ball.
> >
> > Only if the added energy was greater than the frictional losses.
> 
> Yes.  And besides "rolling friction" and inductive braking, there is also
> demagnetization/remagnetization loss in the steel of the ball (also called
> hysterisis loss.) My gut feel is that this path for energy loss is greater
> than inductive braking.  Shifting the permanent magnetization of the steel
> ball will slow the ball and heat it.  One way to reduce hysterisis loss:
> don't use steel, use a ferromag material which cannot be permanently
> magnetized.  Pure iron for example.  I've heard that steel with extremely
> high carbon content is similar.  I believe that the alloys used in
> transformer laminations are optimized for reduced hysterisis loss.
> However, perhaps the o/u effect involves hysterisis in the ball, and a
> pure iron ball actually will not run in closed-loop mode.
> 
> > If you build a SMOT ramp and play with the adjustments, you will learn
> > that most of the energy gain in the ramp is lost in using the mag wall
> > at the end of the ramp to push the ball back into the exit rails.
> > Others will verify this.
> 
> This is interesting.  Why should this be?  Since fields are conservative,
> the ball should "bounce off" the exit field, and any slowing that occurs
> should produce a speedup in a later part of the ball's trajectory.  That
> is, unless there is a big dollop of hysterisis loss because of the
> nonlinear fields magnetizing the steel ball.

The bounce off the exit field pushes the ball back into the now near
vertical exit rails, otherwise the ball would be sucked to one of the
mag arrays.

With a 90 deg exit rail (easy to make for Phase 1), as the ball exits,
it can become airborne and be quickly pulled sideways.  If you slide the
arrays up the ramp you will see this happen.  If you pull them down, you
will see the mag "bounce back" wall.  Somewhere in between is the exit
point.  

This exit characteristics acts like a speed limiter and regulates the
max exit speed you can obtain to a very low value.

The "S" curved exit changes that and allows the ball to retain more of
its kinetic energy.  But the design becomes more complicated and the
magnets need different adjustments.

> > > It would be quite a conincidence if the frictional and other losses were
> > > always equal to the energy gain, resulting in a contant average ball
> > > velocity.
> 
> I have to disagree.  Physical systems with low power and high friction
> will accelerate only up to a speed where frictional loss is equal to
> excess energy input rate.  If friction was constant, then the rate of
> energy loss increases with increasing speed.  The system will "magically"
> find the special speed where power loss equals power input.  (Imagine a
> wind-up toy boat driving across a bathtub; it doesn't speed up and up,
> instead it immediately settles to a constant speed.)
> 
> In Greg's device, the average speed should remain constant, but if the
> s-curves are added, a new, higher speed is attained.  If the rails are
> then polished, yet a higher speed results.  If friction could be reduced
> by orders of magnitude (needle-bearing disk spinning in a vacuum?), the
> ball speed might be very very high.
> 
> .....................uuuu / oo \ uuuu........,.............................
> William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623
> EE/Programmer/Science exhibit designer        http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/
> Seattle, WA 98117  billb@eskimo.com           SCIENCE HOBBYIST web page

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 21:32:14 1997
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Epitaxy wrote:
> 
> I think that Greg's next stage device, the RMOD, is NOT utilizing gravity
> and would work in gravityless environment.
> 
> Right Greg ?

Hi Epitaxy,

RMOD Mark I ..... Gravity needed.

RMOD Mark II .... Gravity NOT needed.
 (Still sims and theory, but looking good and powerfull)


Best Regards,
 Greg


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 21:41:14 1997
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Science wig. sig. wrote:
> 
> >
> > Barry Merriman wrote:
> > >
> > > Greg Watson wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> > > > Where is there another example of a magnet powered device doing
> > > > actual work!
> > >
> > > Take refrigerator magnet. Hold 0.5 cm from refrigerator. Release.
> > > Magnet leaps to stick to fridge. Work was done. QED.
> > > Do you think no one has ever noticed this capability before?
> > >
> > > > You have stated in the past that this was impossible.
> > >
> > > I stated no such thing. Refer to above. It is painfully
> > > obvious that magnets can do work on things. In particular,
> > > they atract/repel other magnets, so work is done.
> > >
> > > > Worried about your own research program Barry?
> > >
> > > Yes Greg. Your magnetic perpetual motion machine really
> > > has me shook up. I'm resigning my position to start a
> > > worm farm. :-)
> >
> > Why, we need you here.
> >
> > Barry, just build a ramp and PLAY with it.
> >
> > > --
> > > Barry Merriman
> >
> > Hi Barry,
> >
> > Build a ramp and play with it.
> >
> > You might learn something.
> >
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >  Greg
> >
> >
> Greg,
>   Way don't you help try and explain your great idea.  You don't need to
> jump on other people, just help us figure out where the energy is coming
> from.  

I only get annoyed at folks that make statements about the SMOT device
and they have never even built one.  If you want to shoot it apart,
thats fine, but first build one.  Only seems fair, right?

> It may not seem importaint to you, but there is no such thing is
> FREE ENERGY.  

It is VERY important to me.  I want to know how much I will have to pay
the ferryman before I use his boat or energy.  Reread my posts for the
last few months.  This concern has always been on the agenda.

> It may seem free to us, but it has to come from somewhere.
> No something for nothing in physics.  It may come from Earth's gravity, as
> I stated earlyer, it may come from some unknown source, but it is not
> coming out of thin air.

I agree.  There are NO free lunches.

>   Andrew

I have asked that same question many times.  I am concerned to know
where the energy is comming from.

> P.s. Oh, and i'm getting the parts for this project on Saturday so don't just
> tell me to build one.  

I am glad.  If you have any problems, ask me.

> I'm not saying you have not found anything here,
> infact I think this may be a huge find.  I think it should be quite
> posable to make a loop.  I just want to know where the energy is coming
> from, that's all.
> P.P.s Oh, do you have a list of all that parts you need to build this?
> It would make my life easyer... --

Most of the web site with SMOT details have that info, some are :

  http://oscar.clubelite.com:8888/smot/
  http://home.worldonline.nl/~catware/
  http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/index.htm

> +-----Andrew Cantino---------xx053@seorf.ohiou.edu---------------------+

Hi Andrew,

Hope this helps.  And I am really a very nice person.


Best Regards and good Building,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 22:21:11 1997
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Chris -
> 
>   > I've switched to 19*50*6mm (poles on large faces)
> 
> [snip]
> 
>   > The ball is about 13mm
> 
> Right off I'd say your magnets are too wide for the ball. Same problem
> here. Single ramps work well, but linking doesn't. I'm waiting for a
> shipment of small magnets to arrive.
> 
> - Rick Monteverde
> Honolulu, HI

Hi Rick,

You are right.  The magnet height should be smaller than the balls
diameter.  Also the centre line of the magnets should be above the ball
by about a mm or so.  This helps to reduce rolling losses.  Put the ball
above the centre line of the magnets and you can HEAR the increases
frictional losses.

So here are some SMOT design guidelines :

  1) Your magnet height should be around 75% of the lift you are trying
to get.

  2) Your ball should be 10-25% bigger than the magnet height.

  3) Shorter ramps and mag arrays work better than longer setups.  
     This is because the mag differential across the ball is greater 
     for shorter ramps than long ones assuming that the entry and 
     exit differentials remain the same.

  4) Your ramp should be 13-15mm shorted than the mag array lengths.

  5) Powerfull magnets don't make things better, they can actually 
     cause problems.

  6) Remember to back the mag arrays with a steel strip at least 3mm 
     thick.  Any thinner and the strip may saturate.

  7) A 3mm radius on the top of the exit rail will assist exits and help
     to retain more of the balls kinetic energy.  If you use a radiused
     exit, you will find that the magnets can be slid up the ramp to 
     reduce losses in the mag "bounce back" wall at the end of the ramp.

  8) The linking notch filed under the ramps end will allow inter ramp
     linking distance to be varied.  This becomes important when we use
     radiused exits and slide the arrays up the ramp.  Sliding the
arrays
     up alters the takeoff point on entry and the adjustable linking
notch
     allows for closer linking to compensate for the movement of the
takeoff
     point.

  9) Back plate linking can also assist.  This is done by using a short
bit
     of the backing strip and applying it to the ends of the magnet
arrays.
     This increases the field in the ramp by providing a return path for
     some of the flux.

 10) The cenrte line of the magnets should be 1 or 2mm above the centre 
     line of the ball.  This helps to reduce rolling friction and
noise.  
     To high and the ball will be difficult to keep on the centre line 
     and will be sucked to one of the mag arrays.

Hope these hints help to reduce some of the SMOT mystery.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri May 30 23:35:20 1997
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From: JNaudin509@aol.com
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 02:32:39 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970531023239_843734192@emout18.mail.aol.com>
To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
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Subject: SMOT project dedicated web page
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HI Greg,

Due to the success of the SMOT project, I have created a dedicted web page,
you may access now directly to the SMOT project at :

   http://members.aol.com/overunity3/html/smotidx.htm

Overunity yours,

Jean-Louis Naudin ( France / GMT+2 )
Email : JNaudin509@aol.com
my Overunity WEB Server : http://members.aol.com/JNaudin509/
WWPager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/747846


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 00:27:38 1997
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Bill Beaty wrote:

>Pure iron for example.  I've heard that steel with extremely
>high carbon content is similar.  I believe that the alloys used in
>transformer laminations are optimized for reduced hysterisis loss. 

>However, perhaps the o/u effect involves hysterisis in the ball, and a
>pure iron ball actually will not run in closed-loop mode.
>

I can't find the message but someone who linked two ramps said they
used a glass ball filled with iron powder and it worked great.




>> If you build a SMOT ramp and play with the adjustments, you will learn
>> that most of the energy gain in the ramp is lost in using the mag wall
>> at the end of the ramp to push the ball back into the exit rails. 
>> Others will verify this.
>
>This is interesting.  Why should this be?  Since fields are conservative,
>the ball should "bounce off" the exit field, and any slowing that occurs
>should produce a speedup in a later part of the ball's trajectory.

To the contrary, the slow down *is* an "opposite reaction" to the energy
gained by the ball going up the ramp. The reason the closed loop SMOT is
overunity is because the ball doesn't hang at the top of the ramp like it
should ( fields being conserved and all ).

This is why there is so much interest in the field sims of the ball
dropping from the ramp.



>> > It would be quite a conincidence if the frictional and other losses were
>> > always equal to the energy gain, resulting in a contant average ball
>> > velocity.
>
>I have to disagree.  Physical systems with low power and high friction
>will accelerate only up to a speed where frictional loss is equal to
>excess energy input rate.  If friction was constant, then the rate of
>energy loss increases with increasing speed.  The system will "magically"
>find the special speed where power loss equals power input.  (Imagine a
>wind-up toy boat driving across a bathtub; it doesn't speed up and up,
>instead it immediately settles to a constant speed.)

Good call. I agree.


                                    Scott Becker
                                    skot@compumedia.com


/********************************************************/
/* I don't think that energy is conserved, but it       */
/* doesn't matter if useful over-unity operation works! */
/********************************************************/

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 00:32:29 1997
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From: skot@compumedia.com (Scott Becker)
Subject: Re: For god's sake, what is a magnet?
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Andrew Wrote

>Can someone PLEASE tell all of us laymen what a magnet really is.  What is
>doing the pulling?  With gravity it is (probably) the gravatron.  It there
>a magnetron?  What!?

Ok Andrew, hold on to your hat, are you ready?

I'm gonna tell you the truth, right now.

WE DON'T KNOW.

That's why we have all this debate. By not knowing what a magnetic
field really is, none of us can prove anything about it. All we know
is how it acts.

The traditional view of how a magnet acts is summed up by two
characteristics:

1 Every field has two poles of equal and opposite strength.
2 The work done by two magnets as they pull together is equal
    and opposite to the work needed to pull them back apart.

The reason that the SMOT is over-unity is because the symmetry
of the work done and the work un-done has been broken. The ball
gets more kinetic energy from the magnets than it looses back to
the magnets, it is not symmetrical ( equal and opposite ).

The answer to the question, "Where the energy is coming from?",
can not be answered conclusively until we understand exactly
what a magnetic field is. And yes, one of the theories is a
"Magnetron".

I used to think that energy is not conserved. Now I don't know.
The energy may be coming from ZPE, aether or some other thing
that we haven't even theorized about yet.

Or an the other hand it may actually be coming out of *no-where*.
This however is quite unlikely, and to agree with the majority
of people throughout history, defys common sense.

However my previous firm belief that evergy is not conserved has
been turned into a firm belief that the "Conservation of Energy"
law as held by Newtonion Physics is wrong. You can build a device
to do useful work that doesn't use fuel. Newtonion Physics says
you can't. The closed loop SMOT proves my belief that you can.

This does not, however, mean that energy is not conserved. The
explaination of where the energy is coming from can probably be
found in "Quantum Physics", as it is developed more.


By the way, I find it amazing that the criteria for "Over-Unity
proof" for a hundred years has now suddenly changed.

The SMOT device ( Phase 4 - four curved linked ramps with ball
running continously ) has the following characteristics:

No batteries.
No fuel cells.
No heavy, high speed flywheels.
No chemical reactions.
No input energy.

It is an "Over-Unity Device".


By the way, saying that the act of "letting go of the ball" is
adding energy to the system is just like saying:

    "The effort expended to lift the knob on the light switch
    has caused the hundred watt bulb to put out more than a
    hundred watts."

Farewell "Newtonion Physics"...

                                    Scott Becker
                                    skot@compumedia.com


/********************************************************/
/* I don't think that energy is conserved, but it       */
/* doesn't matter if useful over-unity operation works! */
/********************************************************/

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 03:22:35 1997
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 04:01:39 -0400 (EDT)
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To: vortex-l@eskimo.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
cc: gwatson@microtronics.com.au, hamdix@verisoft.com.tr
Subject: Re : My magnets sizes are same as Naudin's
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On 31/05/1997 03:36:28  , hamdix@verisoft.com.tr (Hamdi Ucar) wrote :

<< 
 Hi,
 
 I have difficulties on working on one ramp and linking. My new magnets
 sizes are 25 x 40 x 10 (N-S=10). Magnets are very strong and this is
 point where the problem start. I could not open the aperture between
 magnets more to loose the exit because I need at least 25 mm to climb.
 On even optimum position ball weight is enough to fall down. It is 17 mm
 diameter bearing ball. It was easier to working  with the flexible
 magnets. I strongly recommend again Greg's specs. But it is too late for
 me.
  >>

Hi Hamdi,

I have used a 25mm steel ball ( weight = 70 gr ), have you seen my complete
scheme V1.02 of my setup. I suggest you to visit again my SMOT web page at :

  http://members.aol.com/overunity3/html/smotidx.htm

Check for the correct slope, the gap between magnets and the most important,
the V angle between the magnets ramps. Look at again the QuickField
simultation... 
The steel ball climb along the "magnetic neutral zone", convert magnetic
energy into gravitic potential energy, and fall down just when the ball reach
a "3 Dimensional neutral zone (vertical/horizontal ( magnetic, gravitic, time
frame) )". 

I give you a very usefull tips to adjust the V shape of the magnets and the
positionning of the Aluminium ramp :
- replace your actual U shaped alum ramp, with a longer ramp, the normal fall
down point must be replaced by the longer ramp.
- put your steel ball at the theorical "fall down" point, if your V shape is
correct and your estimated "fall down" point is the good one, the steel ball
must be stay in equilibrium......
Check this....and play with the ball at this "3D point in the neutral zone",
you will be able to understand the secret of the SMOT device.....

I think that this tips will help you to adjust properly your mag.ramp.
If you want more details or more pictures about the SMOT linking I can send
it to you later....

SMOTy yours,


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 03:47:49 1997
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John Logajan wrote:
> 
> Rick Monteverde wrote:
> > After the SMOT runs down, we have a phunny ball situation. It's not the
> > magnets that go bad, it's the ball! What exactly is it about this 'used'
> > ball that's different from a 'fresh' ball? Can I refresh depleted balls
> > somehow? Do I just have to wait about two hours? <g> I can't help but
> > conclude you may mean that the ball has become magnetized.
> 
> I think you've put your finger on a testable explanation.
> 
> As Chris Tinsley has suggested, non-magnetized iron is really just
> a horde of randomly aligned magnetic domains -- in a net higher energy
> state.
> 
> Therefore placing an un-magentized iron ball in the device is to put
> a higher energy state object in the fields of the rail magnets.
> 
> Since Chris suggests that these rail magnets cannot become de-magnetized
> without energy being added, by reverse logic, the ball cannot become
> magnetized without giving up energy.
> 
> I believe Merriman, Sevoir and others have calculated that there is
> quite a bit of delta energy in a magnetized versus unmagnetized
> object.  Therefore the ball actually has a good bit of energy to
> give up (it only has to overcome the rolling friction losses etc).
> 
> Two reasons why the ball may increasingly become magnetized -- it
> is moving through varying (but not reversing) fields, and it keeps
> getting periodic physical jolts as it drops from the ramp exits.
> It has long been known that taping a metal object in a magnetic
> field helps accelerate the object's magnetization (it knocks
> the domains loose, if you will.)

The rolling ball will encounter varying field curls and the domains will
constantly be moving around.  The bigger the ratio of ball diameter to
magnet height, the bigger the domain movement will be.

> This hypothesis suggests that balls do indeed get tired -- tired to
> the extent that they get magnetized.  Therefore if this conjecture
> is true, the balls must eventually roll to a stop.

They don't stop.

> --
>  - John Logajan -- jlogajan@skypoint.com  --  612-699-9472 -

Hi John,

I actually keep my spare balls stuck to a large ring magnet.

I have not noticed any residual magnetism, but will check.

Epitaxy's glass ferrite ball is very different.


Best Regards,
 Greg


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 03:47:52 1997
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Rick Monteverde wrote:
> 
> Butch (I think) wrote:
> 
>    >  What scares me is if what he says is true
>    >  then every time you got the magnets to do
>    >  work,  then to maintain the original energy
>    >  level of the magnets, you would half to
>    >  return that work in total to the magnets and
>    >  if any of that work was done external of the
>    >  system, and not returned to the system in
>    >  full, then the total energy of the magnets
>    >  drops.
>    >     Please tell me this is not so and why!
> 
> Here's the wild-eyed free-energy believer reason why this works: fist of
> all, it is so, but...it seems that you can take momentum (energy) from the
> magnetic field of a spinning charge, apparently leaving it momentarily
> "depleted" in some way. But that depletion is not really possible, so
> immediately the lack is made up by the charge by dipping into the ZPF or
> something for the difference.

I support "ZPE" as the energy source.

I view the ramps as if the magnet arrays were electromagnets.

If that were so, we could "see" the input current varing as the balls
moved and all would say "See the moving balls are drawing power from the
input current supply".  No Ou, just normal current to mag field to
mechanical work conversion.  Nothing new here.

But now, because we are using "Permanent Magents", we can't "SEE" the
current driving the magnets field, but its still there.  Its the moving
electrical charges called electrons flowing around the irom atoms in the
"Permanent Magnets".

Hals ZPE resupplying the electrons sounds right to me.

> That's the idea, anyway. I don't know if it's true. Haven't heard a better
> explanation yet - except maybe that you really *can't* get energy from
> permanent magnets. But that doesn't appear to fit the SMOT situation, does
> it.
> 
> - Rick Monteverde

Hi Rick,

I favor Hal's ZPE theory.


Best Regards,
 Greg


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 03:48:02 1997
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 20:15:27 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: JayCar Electronics (SMOT Magnets)
References: <338DE458.93E6C61D@verisoft.com.tr> <l03102805afb3c615abbe@[207.147.196.153]> <338E2670.1247@microtronics.com.au> <338E4E8D.5FB2@ix.netcom.com>
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Dave DeLeo wrote:
> 
> Greg,
> 
> Can you please send me the phone number of JayCar Electronics.
> 
> The number I have 61 2 2743 6144 doesn't go through, I get a message to
> dial 61 29 then the local number. (61 29 2743 6144) That number is not
> JayCar.  I would appreciate it if you could look up the number for me.
> I can't find any suitable magnets localy so I figured I'll just order
> them.
> 
> Thank You
> Dave DeLeo

Hi Dave,

Sorry for the confusion, we (Aust) are changing our phone numbering to 8
digits.

JayCar's data is as follows :

  JayCar ELectronics,
  PO Box 185,
  Concord NSW, 2137,
  Australia.

  61 2 9743 6144 (Phone)
  61 2 9743 2066 (Fax)


Hope this helps,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 04:01:26 1997
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:23:53 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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References: <338F3741.213CAB7E@verisoft.com.tr>
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Hamdi Ucar wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I have difficulties on working on one ramp and linking. My new magnets
> sizes are 25 x 40 x 10 (N-S=10). Magnets are very strong and this is
> point where the problem start. 

I have pointed out before that strong magnets are NOT an advantage in
SMOT ramps.

> I could not open the aperture between
> magnets more to loose the exit because I need at least 25 mm to climb.
> On even optimum position ball weight is enough to fall down. It is 17 mm
> diameter bearing ball. It was easier to working  with the flexible
> magnets. I strongly recommend again Greg's specs. But it is too late for
> me.

Try shorter ramps, they work better than long ramps.  More differential
across the ball.  Try it, it might help.

> By the I found an other style to stack the magnets and it show very
> interesting effect on accelerating the ball. I will not to describe it
> at this moment for not disturbing the concentration of the team.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Hamdi Ucar

Hi Hamdi,

Send me more info in private and I will help you to get linking working.


Best Regards,
 Greg


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 04:01:51 1997
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:52:29 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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William Beaty wrote:
> 
> On 30 May 1997, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> 
> > To you, maybe, but I bet no other reader in this forum agrees. As far as I
> > can tell, from my meager knowledge of physics, you are proposing a gross
> > violation of c. of e. That's no "mechanism"! I admit there might be a c. of
> > e. violation, assuming the thing actually goes for days, but I would not call
> > that a "mechanism" and it sure as hell isn't plain as day! It is another way
> > of saying I have not got the foggiest idea what could be happening.
> 
> Unless I'm totally confused, Barry seems to be saying that:
> 
>   - when the ball is released at one particular point in the system,
>     strong magnetic forces launch it violently forward.  There is a
>     one-time initial kick involved here.

While there is a strong inward pull at the opening of the ramp, the rest
of the ramp's magnets do assist the ball in its upward path.

I can release the ball about 10-15mm down from the exit and get the ball
to transit through the rest of the 4 linked SMOT ramps.  At 10-15mm down
from the exit, the pull up the ramp is very gently as it is driven by
the differential mag fields across the ball.

>   - the friction around the whole loop is *extremely* low,
> 
>   - net forward force around the loop then is zero, and the ball
>     essentially drifts around the loop for 100's of seconds because of the
>     tiny friction.  Eventually it should slow enough to hang up at
>     one particular place.
> 
> But if the ball rolls at constant average speed, and does NOT slow down
> continously, then his explanation is wrong.  

The ball doesn't slow as it goes through the linked ramps.

> Or, if the ball is instead
> released at a "worst case" point in the loop, then the "launching" forces
> will be minimal and the ball will be launched gently rather than
> violently, and if it THEN speeds up to a higher average speed and
> maintains this speed, his explanation is wrong.
> 
> Interesting note:  I originally imagined that the ball must lose all its
> accumulated K.E. as it falls over a dropoff and bounces off the next rail.

With the 90 deg exits, that is right!  As many will tell you it goes
"Click"

> If so, and if the ball then continues to move, it must be an anomalous
> event.  Not so!  Since the top of the previous rail pulls upwards on the
> ball as it falls, energy is therefor stored in the magnetic field and the
> ball is lowered gently.  Energy is put back as the ball is drawn upwards
> along the next slope.  With perfect adjustment, the ball might touch down
> onto the next rail at zero velocity and lose no K.E. at all.  No "click"
> sound.  Therefore the net friction around the whole loop might be very low
> after all, it might be nearly equivalent to a perfectly flat circular
> track having no magnets!  Weird!

I have never seen a ball at exit, gently lowered to the entry of the
next ramp.  They go "Click" quite loudly.

> William Beaty  voice:206-781-3320   bbs:206-789-0775    cserv:71241,3623

Hi Bill,

Seems you still haven't built a SMOT ramp yet.  

Your Wierd Science Page got me into this.  
Could say that you are the Grand Father of SMOT.  

You at least owe me to build a ramp and play.


Best Regards,
 Greg


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 04:02:00 1997
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Message-ID: <338FE622.4D61@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:19:38 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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HLafonte@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Greg,
>  In theory, could you scale up the ramp to say, a length of five feet long,
> with a lift of one inch? Then you could use a plastic tube to return the
> ball. One ramp, one ball, one return path, could it be done ?
> Butch LaFonte

Hi Butch,

Long ramps don't work as well as short ramps.

See my earlier theory on this.


Best Regards,
 Greg


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 04:14:14 1997
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Amen.

  I can attest to this !  With NdFeB grade 39 magnets the "neutral line"
balancing is very and I mean very hard to accomplish.  Don't even try it
without polycarbonate or plexiglass bases, very strong epoxy resin and
precisely threaded adjustment screws.


At 02:47 PM 5/31/97 +0930, you wrote:
>
>  5) Powerfull magnets don't make things better, they can actually 
>     cause problems.





From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 04:30:08 1997
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Message-ID: <33900775.4252@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 20:41:49 +0930
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References: <3397ca98.26448983@mail.eisa.net.au>
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Robin van Spaandonk wrote:
> 
> If the ball is slowly becoming magnetised, then it will also have a
> tendency to keep the same poles toward the magnets time after time.
> It might be interesting to paint an N and an S on the ball (stop it
> during one of its hikes up the ramp), and see if it maintains its
> orientation over many tours of the circuit.
> At the moment, only Greg would appear to be in a position to do this.
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@eisa.net.au>

Hi Robin,

I looked at that very early in the development cycle.

While there seemed to be some linking of ball position, I believe it was
more related to frictional costs in moving the ball sideways.  By the
way, circular ramps are much more lossy than straight ramps.  One side
of the ball is always sliding.  Curved ramps work, but they are a bitch
(sorry ladies no insult intended).  They eat energy.

As I mentioned before, the ball moves through fields of different curl. 
The domains are always moving.

The RMOD is very different to the SMOT.  The balls DO NOT move (rotate)
as they return.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 04:49:44 1997
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Message-ID: <33900C94.5A9@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:03:40 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Subject: SMOT bank account details
References: <338F9C30.2C12@microtronics.com.au> <338FE366.4D77@loc1.tandem.com>
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Bob Horst wrote:
> 
> Greg --
> 
> I was wondering if there is a Western Union office near you.  If so, we
> can call Western Union at a toll-free number, give them a credit card
> number, and have them wire you the money for the kits.  It would be much
> easier for us, you would get your money faster, and we would get the
> kits faster.

Direct TT is faster and better.

> By the way, I got my new magnets and built the first ramp.  Dimensions
> are now close to yours, but with five more powerful magnets on each side
> of the ramp in single rows.  The magnets are 5/8 x 13/16 x 1/2, 5 oz
> pull, 20 for $10, Edmund Scientific part number T53,556.
> 
> I get about 17mm lift with one ramp and a 3/4 inch ball.  To link the
> ramps, it looks close.  The magnets are 5/8 inch (16mm) high, giving me
> about a mm to spare. Have not yet attempted linking them yet because the
> fields are so strong I am not sure how I will anchor the magnets.

You could have problems, that why I suggest max magnet height of 75% of
lift heigth.  Seem to work ok.

> -- Bob

Hi Bob and others,

You can send money directly to my bank account.  My bank (ANZ) charges
me $10 Aust to process the TT :

If you wish to remit funds via TT please send $160 Australian Dollars to
:

  Acount Name :
   Mr. and Mrs. GO Watson,

  Account Number :
   015-035 5774-67879

  Bank :
   Australian and New Zealand Banking Group Ltd., (ANZ)
   201 Victoria Square,
   Adelaide, 5001,
   South Australia,
   Australia.

  Advise request :
   Please advise Greg Watson on 8270 2737 of senders details.

As banks sometimes get things wrong, please advise me when you send a
TT.


Hope this helps,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 04:56:30 1997
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Message-ID: <33900DDF.7B41@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:09:11 +0930
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References: <v01530501afb5bb703acc@[199.237.131.228]>
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Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> >Epitaxy wrote:
> >>
> >> I think that Greg's next stage device, the RMOD, is NOT utilizing gravity
> >> and would work in gravityless environment.
> >>
> >> Right Greg ?
> >
> >Hi Epitaxy,
> >
> >RMOD Mark I ..... Gravity needed.
> >
> >RMOD Mark II .... Gravity NOT needed.
> > (Still sims and theory, but looking good and powerfull)
> >
> >
> >Best Regards,
> > Greg
> 
> What is RMOD Mark II?  First I recall hearing of it.  Did I miss something
> while I was gone?  Would't be anything like what I wrote about in "Closing
> the Hartman device loop" would it?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

Hi Horace,

No.  I mentioned a new RMOD device some time ago.

How are the house modification going?

Any spare time to build a SMOT ramp?


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 05:10:57 1997
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Message-ID: <33901369.39B6@worldonline.nl>
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 14:02:49 +0200
From: Ronald de Mol <catware@worldonline.nl>
Organization: World Online
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Homepage Updated    http://home.worldonline.nl/~catware/index.html

--
Ronald.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 05:25:08 1997
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Subject: Re: Hartman 4,215,330, SMOT, etc. not public domain?
References: <v01530500afb5b593da02@[199.237.131.243]>
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Horace Heffner wrote:
> 
> It appears it is a critical issue as to whether the renewal fees on the
> Hartman patent 4,215,330 have been paid up.  If so, then the intellectual
> property is not public domain, as the patent expires Jul.29, 2000.
> 
> I say this primarily because of claim 12, an independent claim that appears
> to have a very broad coverage, especially of the things discussed here on
> vortex:
> 
> "12. In a permanent magnet propulsion system the combination of: a pair of
> tracks; and a row of permanent magnets mounted directly outboard from each
> of said tracks with all north seeking poles of the magnets of one of said
> rows being adjacent one of said tracks and all south seeking poles of the
> magnets of the other of said tracks being adjacent to the other said
> tracks."
> 
> Any two inventions falling within the same set of claims are the same
> invention.  To fall outside the scope of existing claims any new claims
> have to be proven non-obvious to one who is skilled in the art.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Horace Heffner

Hi Horace,

If you remember when I started the SMOT discussion I clearly said the
device was based on the patent 4,215,330.  I encouraged people to read
and review the patent.  I provided links to the IBM patent server.

I am not trying to take anything away from Hartman.

BUT the Simple Magnetic Ou Toy is not the Hartman patent.  There are
several major innovations and improvements some of which are unique to
SMOT :

  1) The way the ball magnetically exits is different.

  2) The way the differential field is achieved and constructed is
different.

  3) The way the entry and exit fields are adjusted is different.
     One adjustment, NOT forty or more.  And they all track.  
     Adjusting the Hartman device would be very difficult

  4) The use of the steel backing plate is new and unique.
     The SMOT (as designed) will not work without the backing
     plate.


Horace, I am not trying to take anything away from Hartman, only take
his work to the next level.

Read my earlier posts, most of my earlier corro referenced Hartman.


Best Regards,
 Greg


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 05:30:15 1997
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:52:42 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Hi All,

Due to the use of the SMOT kit, I have modified the Phases as follows :

  1) Single SMOT ramp construction.

  2) Linking of 4 SMOT ramps on a level surface.

  3) Achieving an increase of final lift height from 12mm to 24mm
     by mounting the 4 linked ramp on a board and lifting one end 
     slowly up by 12mm.

  4) Achieving a roll away.
      (First real proof of Ou)

  5) Achieving a roll around of the ball back to the start.
      (Second real proof of Ou)

  6) Achieving a repeat of 5.
      (Third real proof of Ou)

Can we all agree on the above AND can we ALL accept Phases 4 - 6 as
proof of Ou.

We NEED real mile posts to work to.  I will provide the STANDARD kits. 
Others will provide the sleepless nights getting every closer to the
mile posts and feeling like a million dollars as they pass and see them
in the rear vision mirror.

But we need mile posts EVERYONE will accept.

Can we get them?

They should NOT be set by me.  I should only suggest.

They should link to the reality of the SMOT kits and many replicators of
varying skills in many places around our shrinking planet.  

They should not be mile posts that can only be achieved or measured in
someones lab, but instead on someones kitchen table by human eyes and
hands.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 07:10:11 1997
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:12:53 -0500 (CDT)
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From: Michael C Slivinski <sunbrite@mymail.net>
Subject: TEETER TOTTER
Resent-Message-ID: <"FZTCT1.0.RA6.a43ap"@mx1>
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Hello All,

No I haven't built the smot yet.Using my minds eye and videos at this time.
 But... looking at JLN's web page. I wonder
if the first phase assembly/unit was placed so the whole assembly was evenly
balanced on a pivot (like childrens teeter toter)( two kids on a ramp bouncing
back and forth to keep the cycle going) so when the ball is over the half way 
point that the ramp and magnets tilt further giving added acceleration/momentum 
to the ball and then when it drops off the end the ramp and magents will telt 
back. Now will the added momentum be enough to get the ball back around to the 
begining. I mention this to possiblem help shorten the added phases.
just thoughts....
Mike Slivinski  sunbrite@mymail.net
http://www.myhomepage.net/~sunbrite/

God helps those, that help themselves... 
so they may help others! MCS

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 08:32:42 1997
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To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com
Cc: vortex-L@eskimo.com
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 08:21:15 PST
Subject: Why SMOT is O/U
Message-ID: <19970321.082117.12526.0.tv@juno.com>
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Dear Fellow Pioneers,

The Simple Magnetic Overunity Toy is a free energy machine and
 a real perpetual motion machine of the 2nd kind  !!

Why ?   Can you think of a single example of an energy source that does
not have some element that goes from a higher potential energy to
a lower potential  ?  What part of a closed loop SMOT is doing this ?

If some of the ferromagnets where settling into a lower energy state
I think it would become obvious very quickly.  The precisely adjusted
SMOT would quit very quickly, not run for hours as Greg Watson
has demonstrated.  I doubt it would even make more than one loop !

It is interesting that this idea of "magnets running down" was used to
attempt to explain away the inventions of both Wesley Gary and
Hans Coler.

Rather than try to explain away this amazing phenomena, try making one
a SMOT ramp they are easy to make and fun !   They make great toys for
older kids.

Tim Vaughan
(tv@juno.com)

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 08:50:11 1997
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From: Judson Smales <stevenj@paonline.com>
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Hi everybody! 
This is my first time to address this list but I'm a long time listener.
I think I've got enough information together to develop a hydraulic
overunity device but I'd like to know of other people out there that
might have experimented in this area. I've looked at the clem.asc along
with other items.  If anybody can help me or is interested in what
I've found, send me a line.
		stevenj@paonline.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 09:16:10 1997
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Hi everybody! 
This is my first time to address this list but I'm a long time listener.
I think I've got enough information together to develop a hydraulic
overunity device but I'd like to know of other people out there that
might have experimented in this area. I've looked at the clem.asc along
with other items.  If anybody can help me or is interested in what
I've found, send me a line.
                judson.smales@paonline.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 10:25:21 1997
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:23:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: woods@most.weird.com (Greg A. Woods)
To: gwatson@microtronics.com.au
Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT now in 6 Phases and linked to the SMOT kits
In-Reply-To: Greg Watson's message
	of "Sat, May 31, 1997 21:52:42 +0930"
	regarding "SMOT now in 6 Phases and linked to the SMOT kits"
	id <33901812.47A0@microtronics.com.au>
References: <33901812.47A0@microtronics.com.au>
Reply-To: woods@weird.com (Greg A. Woods)
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Organization: Planix, Inc.; Toronto, Ontario; Canada
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[ On Sat, May 31, 1997 at 21:52:42 (+0930), Greg Watson wrote: ]
> Subject: SMOT now in 6 Phases and linked to the SMOT kits
>
> Can we all agree on the above AND can we ALL accept Phases 4 - 6 as
> proof of Ou.

No theory can be proved only by experiments that demonstrate the desired
effect.  The theory should also suggest experiments that would
demonstrate a failure of the effect.  We need to include an experiment
that would will succeed only if the effect is not present.

In order to get to that point I and others have suggested measuring the
friction loss of the ball rolling on the track, and I've also suggested
measuring the energy of a falling ball as compared to one rolling down a
ramp from the same vertical height.  These combined experiments should
show if indeed the magnets are imparting any energy to the ball that
cannot be explained with gravity alone.

(What I had in mind for the shock absorbing material that would allow an
easy measurement of the energy expended by stopping the ball was that
dense green foam florists use for flower arrangements.  It has little or
no elasticity and the diameter of the mark made by the impacting ball
should provide an easy to compare measurement (assuming a relatively
constant density).  A series of such marks made by dropping a ball in a
low vacum column from various heights should make the translation of
dent diameter to Joules fairly easy.)

BTW, I'm currently forced to stick to the "thinker" mode as I'm
extremely busy at my daytime work that currently extends to any and all
hours....

-- 
							Greg A. Woods

+1 416 443-1734			VE3TCP			robohack!woods
Planix, Inc. <woods@planix.com>; Secrets of the Weird <woods@weird.com>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 11:07:42 1997
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From: James Fajber <jfajber@direct.ca>
Subject: SMOT ball drop
Resent-Message-ID: <"gzi2o3.0.RT7.9Z6ap"@mx1>
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I recall that you can take a soft iron nail,
point it north, give it a hard hit with a
hammer, and some of the mechanical energy 
from the hammer blow will shift the magnetic
domains to give magnetize the nail.

The SMOT ball drops down to the next track
in the presence of a magnetic field. I wonder
if it could be picking up some magnetization
through the same mechanism.


That said, I'm going hunting for SMOT parts today.
Any magnet only device that makes more than one loop
is novel, interesting and something I've gotta see
for myself.



James



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 11:44:01 1997
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Message-ID: <338F2D01.59D7@slkc.uswest.net>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:39:45 -0700
From: jared bouck <jarbou@slkc.uswest.net>
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UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!! 
UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!
UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!! 
UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!
UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!! 
UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!
UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!! 
UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!
UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!! 
UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!  UPDATE!!!

WOW alot has happend... as you all can see i havent posted anything in a
LONG time, i have run into some problems, and have some stuff to report,
ok if i rember right the last mesage i posted i had just finished
winding the main coil and had put it into the "donut" well what had
happend is i went to test the coil out, and the STRONG magnetic field
totaly wiped out my computer, it formated the hdd, and all of my backup
disks
and today is the first day that i finaly have gotten back on the net.

now that i have been able to update what i am doing i have some
inprovments and modafactions that need to be made, the first and most
inportant is go to the local hardware store and buy some coper toobing
<1/4 DIA.>
take 1 loop of it inside of the coil, < DO NOT LET IT CONTACT THE COIL
ITS SELF> and win in use run water through it to cool the unit down! it
heats up real fast, allso use glycern not wax as a di-electric.

and the second and probly best inprovment is go to your local lumber
retaler and buy alot of sheat lead <it is in the rofing section> and
build a box around it, <this will help reduce BUT NOT ilimanate the
strong magnetic fields> or do what i did, i moved this into a "tuff
shed" out side and lead lined the entier inside with the lead.

well that about does it, rember what i said and use caution if you
dieside to make this project, i am about done winding the outer coil,
win i am i will update you all again, if you have any questions email me
at 

jarbou@slkc.uswest.net

and i will email you asap!

i know some of you had emailed me with questions, email them again to
me, i lost them all!

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 12:10:01 1997
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unsubscribe freenrg-l@eskimo.com 

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 12:33:40 1997
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From: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
Subject: Re: SMOT now in 6 Phases and linked to the SMOT kits
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I already have done the friction experiment and posted the results on
vortex-l and freenrg-l.  I think barry did the math on the results.

Pay attention.



At 01:23 PM 5/31/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In order to get to that point I and others have suggested measuring the
>friction loss of the ball rolling on the track, and I've also suggested
>measuring the energy of a falling ball as compared to one rolling down a
>ramp from the same vertical height.  These combined experiments should
>show if indeed the magnets are imparting any energy to the ball that
>cannot be explained with gravity alone.

					Greg A. Woods
>
>+1 416 443-1734			VE3TCP			robohack!woods
>Planix, Inc. <woods@planix.com>; Secrets of the Weird <woods@weird.com>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 12:56:13 1997
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 14:52:58 -0500
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From: Arturo Pascalin <pascalin@albec.net.mx>
Subject: Re: SMOT Kits and SMOT Phases update (31st May, 1997)
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At 01:04 PM 31/05/97 +0930, you wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>
>Here are the updated SMOT Kit and SMOT Phases details :
>
>
>********************
>
>
>  Price :
>    
>    $150 Australian Dollars via International Bank Cheque
>    made payable to Greg Watson Consulting.
>
>    ~ 115 US Dollars,
>       70 UK Pounds,
>      660 French Francs,
>      158 Canadian Dollars,
>     3975 Belgium Francs,
>      195 German Marks,
>    13200 Japanese Yen,
>      165 New Zealand Dollars,
>      875 Swedish Krona,
>   192000 Italian Lira
>     1350 Austrian Schillings
>      160 Swish Francs
>       
or about 906 Mexican Pesos

--
 ____                     _ __
|  _ \ __ _ ___  ___ __ _| /_/_ __
| |_) / _` / __|/ __/ _` | | | '_ \
|  __/ (_| \__ \ (_| (_| | | | | | |
|_|   \__,_|___/\___\__,_|_|_|_| |_|
Arturo Pascalin  <pascalin@albec.net.mx>
< http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2508 >

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 15:50:42 1997
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:48:15 -0700
From: Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
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Subject: Re: Can magnets do work?
References: <338F8091.914@tiac.net> <338F6546.7786@microtronics.com.au>
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Greg Watson wrote:
> 
> Bob Shannon wrote:

<snip>
 
> > But when we place the ball on the start of the ramp, we are putting
> > energy into the system.  We release the ball, adding a bit more energy.
> 
> NO ............. a thousand times NO.

Greg, are you really saying it takes no energy to place the ball in the
field?

> 
> Bob, have you actually built a SMOT ramp?
> 
> When you do so, you will see that this ststement is incorrect.
> 
> > The ball goes up the ramp, and gravity returns the ball to the original
> > level, where it finds another ramp.  If the ramp added energy to the
> > ball, it should travel up the second identical ramp a bit faster than it
> > had before.  After a few circuits through the ramps, it should be moving
> > quite quickly if each trip up the ramp actually added energy to the
> > motion of the ball.
> 
> Only if the added energy was greater than the frictional losses.

Exactly Greg, and this is what over unity means, input to output
ratios...
 
> If you build a SMOT ramp and play with the adjustments, you will learn
> that most of the energy gain in the ramp is lost in using the mag wall
> at the end of the ramp to push the ball back into the exit rails.
> Others will verify this.
> 
> Using a sharp drop off, the SMOT ramps are sort of self regulating.

At unity, not 'over unity'?

> 
> The improved Phase 2 ramps with their "S" curved exits are another thing
> again.  With these, we can actually hang onto more of the balls energy.

So they accelerate on each circuit, or can drive a external load?

<snip>
 
> Please Bob, before you say any more, BUILD 2 SMOT RAMPS.  Then comment.
> As I said before, the way I designed the exit in the easy to build Phase
> 1 design makes the ramps sort of self regulating.
> 
> Don't believe me?
> 
> BUILD a Phase 1 SMOT ramp and see for yourself!

<snip>
 
> Answer the question yourself.  Build a SMOT ramp.

<snip>

> Build a SMOT ramp before you go on further.
> They REALLY do work.
> The Phase 1 design is self regulating.
> Honest!

Greg, didn't you recently invite theoretical discussions of this device
on
the list?  Now I am asked not to discuss this further unless I've built
the 
thing?  Wow.

I have no doubt it does what is claimed Greg, I was only commenting on
what might be going on in this behavior.  I have noever intended to
doubt the claims themselves.

I thought you had specifically invited such discussion.  Sorry about
that mate.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 15:58:28 1997
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From: Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
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To: Epitaxy <epitaxy@localaccess.com>
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Subject: Re: Can magnets do work?
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Epitaxy wrote:
> 
> NO COINCIDENCE AT ALL.

Really?
 
> C'mon.  It is quite obvious that the ball will reach certain TERMINAL
> VELOCITY because the eddy current braking and air resistance increase with
> speed.
> 
> Soooo... since the losses are dependent on speed, they will very quickly
> reach an equilibrium.  Just like a skydiver who reaches 160 miles per hour
> and does not accelerate any faster although the gravity is pulling on him
> with the same force as in the beginning.
> 
> If it wasn't for this simple relationship the ball would go faster and
> faster and faster..................

Err, that ball always starts off at terminal velocity?  That is what I
might describe as a coincidence.

It's got to accelerate to this point of equlibrium between any net
energy gain and induced losses.  This acceleration, or the lack of it
will tell us a great deal about the operation of the ramp, reguardless
of the fact that it should at some point reach equlibrium.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 16:03:51 1997
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Subject: Re: Can magnets do work?
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William Beaty wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 31 May 1997, Greg Watson wrote:
> 
> > Bob Shannon wrote:
> > > The ball goes up the ramp, and gravity returns the ball to the original
> > > level, where it finds another ramp.  If the ramp added energy to the
> > > ball, it should travel up the second identical ramp a bit faster than it
> > > had before.  After a few circuits through the ramps, it should be moving
> > > quite quickly if each trip up the ramp actually added energy to the
> > > motion of the ball.
> >
> > Only if the added energy was greater than the frictional losses.
> 
> Yes.  And besides "rolling friction" and inductive braking, there is also
> demagnetization/remagnetization loss in the steel of the ball (also called
> hysterisis loss.) My gut feel is that this path for energy loss is greater
> than inductive braking.  Shifting the permanent magnetization of the steel
> ball will slow the ball and heat it.  One way to reduce hysterisis loss:
> don't use steel, use a ferromag material which cannot be permanently
> magnetized.  Pure iron for example.  I've heard that steel with extremely
> high carbon content is similar.  I believe that the alloys used in
> transformer laminations are optimized for reduced hysterisis loss.
> However, perhaps the o/u effect involves hysterisis in the ball, and a
> pure iron ball actually will not run in closed-loop mode.

Good point, I'd forgotten this source of loss.

> 
> > If you build a SMOT ramp and play with the adjustments, you will learn
> > that most of the energy gain in the ramp is lost in using the mag wall
> > at the end of the ramp to push the ball back into the exit rails.
> > Others will verify this.
> 
> This is interesting.  Why should this be?  Since fields are conservative,
> the ball should "bounce off" the exit field, and any slowing that occurs
> should produce a speedup in a later part of the ball's trajectory.  That
> is, unless there is a big dollop of hysterisis loss because of the
> nonlinear fields magnetizing the steel ball.
> 
> > > It would be quite a conincidence if the frictional and other losses were
> > > always equal to the energy gain, resulting in a contant average ball
> > > velocity.
> 
> I have to disagree.  Physical systems with low power and high friction
> will accelerate only up to a speed where frictional loss is equal to
> excess energy input rate.  If friction was constant, then the rate of
> energy loss increases with increasing speed.  The system will "magically"
> find the special speed where power loss equals power input.  (Imagine a
> wind-up toy boat driving across a bathtub; it doesn't speed up and up,
> instead it immediately settles to a constant speed.)

Argeed, I was not quite clear.  I understand the device will accelerate
up to
a point of equlibrium, its this acceleration up to that limit I was
thinking of in my original posting.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 16:14:27 1997
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Subject: Re: Question? Very important question!
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HLafonte@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Greg,
>     I have a book by Lester R, Moskowitz called, Permanent Magnet Design and
> Application Handbook. He states that one of the first things that a person
> who is handling permanent magnets for the first time ask's is, when they pull
> two magnets apart they pull each other back together again and if they do
> this sequence over and over again the magnets don't lose any strength and
> they ask where does the energy come from to keep them pulling each other back
> together again? He says it should be quite clear to them what is going on.
> When they let the magnets pull each other together the magnets do work and a
> certain amout of the magnets energy is reduced. What they don't see going on
> is, that when they pull the magnets apart they do work on the magnets and
> restore that lost energy back to the magnets.

Gee, not totally unlike a spring?

>    If this is not so, then every time we pull two magnets apart we are
> increasing the total energy of the magnets and if we were to do this a
> million times then the magnets would be so full of energy they would be about
> to " burst at the seams".
>     What scares me is if what he says is true then every time you got the
> magnets to do work,  then to maintain the original energy level of the
> magnets, you would half to return that work in total to the magnets and if
> any of that work was done external of the system, and not returned to the
> system in full, then the total energy of the magnets drops.
>    Please tell me this is not so and why!
> Butch LaFonte

Maybe this has something to do with why the flux lines must always
return back to
their source?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 16:16:05 1997
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Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 08:43:11 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Hi All,


Here are the updated SMOT Kit and SMOT Phases details :


********************


  Price :
    
    $150 Australian Dollars via International Bank Cheque
    made payable to Greg Watson Consulting.

    ~ 115 US Dollars,
       70 UK Pounds,
      660 French Francs,
      158 Canadian Dollars,
     3975 Belgium Francs,
      195 German Marks,
    13200 Japanese Yen,
      165 New Zealand Dollars,
      875 Swedish Krona,
   192000 Italian Lira
     1350 Austrian Schillings
      160 Swish Francs
       
    Please remit funds via an International Bank Cheque in Australian
Dollars.

You can ALSO send money directly to my bank account.  
My bank (ANZ) charges me $10 Aust to process the TT :

If you wish to remit funds via TT please send $160 Australian Dollars to
:

  Acount Name :
   Mr. and Mrs. GO Watson,

  Account Number :
   015-035 5774-67879

  Bank :
   Australian and New Zealand Banking Group Ltd., (ANZ)
   201 Victoria Square,
   Adelaide, 5001,
   South Australia,
   Australia.

  Advise request :
   Please advise Greg Watson on 8270 2737 of senders details.

As banks sometimes get things wrong, please advise me when you send a
TT.


********************


  Where to send for your SMOT Kit :

    Greg Watson Consulting,
    8 Brabham Grove,
    Aberfolye Park, 5159,
    South Australia,
    Australia.


  Contact Details :
     
     Home / Business / PC Fax .......... 61 8 8270 2737

     E-Mail ............................ gwatson@microtronics.com.au


********************


  What you will get for your $150 dollars :

    4 x Heat formed perspex bases (Numbered, dated and signed my me),
    4 x Linking ramps with "S" curve exits,
    1 x Linking ramp with 90 deg exit (Rollaway / Rollaround use),
    8 x Assembled Magnet Arrays,
    4 x Steel Balls,
    8 x Dress Making Pins,
    1 x Instruction Manual,
    1 x Frameable "Certificate of Authenticity",
    1 x Photo of ME with the 4 linked SMOT ramps,

    The SMOT kits are "Exec Desk" Quality.  
    One kit will produce 4 "Exec Desk" Toys.


********************


  Delivery :

    Via international postal air mail.


********************


  My Personal Guarantee :
    
    Assuming that the ramps are placed on a flat level surface, I
    Greg Watson personal guarantee that :
 
     1) The 4 SMOT ramps will work as individual ramps.  A ball
        statring at rest will climb the ramp and drop out.  

        start at 0mm, climb to 12mm, drop to 0mm, (Ramp 1)

>>>>>>> This is Phase 1 of SMOT development and testing.


     2) The 4 SMOT ramps will link and deliver a ball starting
        at rest to the end of the 4th linked ramp and drop out.

        start at 0mm, climb to 12mm, drop to 0mm, (Ramp 1)
        start at 0mm, climb to 12mm, drop to 0mm, (Ramp 2)
        start at 0mm, climb to 12mm, drop to 0mm, (Ramp 3)
        start at 0mm, climb to 12mm, drop to 0mm. (Ramp 4)

>>>>>>> This is Phase 2 of SMOT development and testing.


  If your SMOT kit can't do this, I will refund your money.


********************


  Additional claims :

    Depending on your skill in adjusting the ramps and their 
     linking, you should expect to achieve the following :

    1) That the 4 linked ramps can be placed on a base board 
       that will elevate the ramps at an angle and achieve a 
       final ramp height at least twice the original height.
       The use of a board allows gradual increase of the ramp
       heights while you learn to power up the ramps.

       start at 0mm, climb to 15mm, drop to 3mm, (Ramp 1)
       start at 3mm, climb to 18mm, drop to 6mm, (Ramp 2)
       start at 6mm, climb to 21mm, drop to 9mm, (Ramp 3)
       start at 9mm, climb to 24mm, drop to 0mm. (Ramp 4)

>>>>>> This is Phase 3 of SMOT development and testing.


    2) That with the tilted linking achieved, the ball on
       exiting the final ramp will fall to the entry level and
       roll away from the ramp assemblies (staying at the entry
       level).  (This is the first OU claim).

>>>>>> This is Phase 4 of SMOT development and testing.


    3) That with the rollaway achieved, a rollaround using plastic
       tubing will allow the ball to return to the start.  (This is 
       the second OU claim)

>>>>>> This is Phase 5 of SMOT development and testing.


    4) That with the rollaround achieved, the ball will re-enter the
       first ramp and repeat the process.  (This is the third OU claim)

>>>>>> This is Phase 6 and final stage of SMOT development and testing.


********************


I can't guarantee that YOU will achieve all of the above.  
To do so will depend on how good you get in adjusting the magnets.  
Many others will support my claim that getting the adjustments right can
require hours of fiddling or minutes.  
It all depends on how much you understand the dynamics of the ramps.  
The more you play, the more you understand and the adjustments become
second nature.


-----------------------------------------------------------------


Web sites who WISH to display this offer for at least 3 months AND
qualify to receive a FREE SMOT Kit, please contact me for the details. 
If you have already purchased a SMOT kit, I will refund your money.

I will have photos of the finished SMOT kits available with-in a week.


Best Regards, Good Smoting to all,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 16:53:40 1997
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 19:51:27 -0700
From: Bob Shannon <bshannon@tiac.net>
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Greg Watson wrote:
> 
> Science wig. sig. wrote:

<large snip>

> > Greg,
> >   Way don't you help try and explain your great idea.  You don't need to
> > jump on other people, just help us figure out where the energy is coming
> > from.
> 
> I only get annoyed at folks that make statements about the SMOT device
> and they have never even built one.  If you want to shoot it apart,
> thats fine, but first build one.  Only seems fair, right?

Not if you invite theoretical discussion on the subject.  Any exactly
why would you assume that its remotely reasonable for you to set any
limits
on the discussion over an open list Greg?

And why do you assume that this discussion of your device is 'shooting
it 
apart'?  What happened to the process of objective discussion that has
been a part of doing science for all these years, has all that oly been
'shooting' each other down?

Think about that for a minute, you might learn something.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 17:07:21 1997
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Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 09:33:31 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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References: <199705310000.UAA27226@big.seorf.ohiou.edu> <338FAAFB.5D16@microtronics.com.au> <3390DBDE.41D2@tiac.net>
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Bob Shannon wrote:
> 
> Greg Watson wrote:
> >
> > Science wig. sig. wrote:
> 
> <large snip>
> 
> > > Greg,
> > >   Way don't you help try and explain your great idea.  You don't need to
> > > jump on other people, just help us figure out where the energy is coming
> > > from.
> >
> > I only get annoyed at folks that make statements about the SMOT device
> > and they have never even built one.  If you want to shoot it apart,
> > thats fine, but first build one.  Only seems fair, right?
> 
> Not if you invite theoretical discussion on the subject.  Any exactly
> why would
> you assume that its remotely reasonable for you to set any limits on the
> discussion
> over an open list Greg?
> 
> Think about that for a minute, you might learn something.

Hi Bob,

I fully believe in and support open discussion about SMOT.

NO RESTRICTIONS.

I also know that some wild ideas have flown about and that if a SMOT
ramp had been played with before, the ideas could have been better
directed.

For the first time that I know, a quick, easy, low cost and simple to
construct device has been placed in the public domain for all to play
with and discuss.  There is even video of the devices working to be
viewed by all.  When was the last time that happened?

If the SMOT ramp required mega hours and/or dollars to build and a lab
full of equipment to test, then more theory based discussion is to be
expected.  This has been the norm for most of the ideas presented on
these groups.  However, with SMOT that is NOT the case.

For the first time, YOU can build a SMOT ramp in a few hours, play with
it, think about what your eyes and hands are telling you.  It then OPENS
up a whole world of discussions based on the operational characteristics
observed by so many.

Pure theory based discussion is OK.  Go for it.  But I really believe
YOU and all the rest of us will get a lot more out of the discussions
once YOU have built a SMOT ramp.

Thats why I keep on saying "Build a SMOT ramp, then talk".

It improves the signal to noise ratio.


My Very Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 17:43:32 1997
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Message-ID: <01BC6DE9.AB91D500@ip203.ts4.phx.inficad.com>
From: Reed Huish <reed@zenergy.com>
To: "'free nrg'" <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Cc: "'egel@main.murray.net.au'" <egel@main.murray.net.au>
Subject: The Encyclopedia
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 15:18:17 -0700
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Thanks to Geoff Egal, we have posted his complete Encyclopedia to Free =
Energy on our web-site, located at http://zenergy.com under the Research =
section.

If anyone has research material or other technical information which =
would be of benefit to individuals working in this new industry, please =
let us know and we would be happy to post the information on our site.

- Reed Huish
  Zenergy Corp
  http://zenergy.com
  602.814.7865


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 18:13:59 1997
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Message-ID: <3390CBE5.3507@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 10:39:57 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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Subject: SMOT balls becoming magnetised
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Hi All,

I have attached a simple Gif showing how any ferromagnetic material will
react as it moves through the different mag fields in a SMOT ramp (or
any field differential where reversal doesn't occur).

The material will trace out what is called a "Minor Loop" as the ball
moves from the area of smallest field (at the bottom of the ramp) to the
area of largest field (at the top of the ramp) and back.

I have never seen any references to the fact that a ferromagnetic
material moving through a minor loop will climb higher and higher up its
B/H curve and increase its residual magnetism.  I have many years of
designing and working with ferromagnetic and have never seen it happen. 
I don't believe it works like that.

I am working on a SMOT theory which ties in Barry's ideas (which I
partly agree with), the Rod & Coil demo Epitaxy and I presented here and
my DNMEC effect experience.  If I am right, the energy is coming from
the ball and not the magnets.


Hope this helps the discussion,
 Greg

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 18:20:02 1997
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Message-ID: <3390CD9B.6BB7@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 10:47:15 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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Organization: Greg Watson Consulting
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: A mundane explanation of SMOTs
References: <199705310000.UAA27226@big.seorf.ohiou.edu> <338FAAFB.5D16@microtronics.com.au> <3390DBDE.41D2@tiac.net> <3390BC53.3B55@microtronics.com.au> <3390F013.4A6B@tiac.net>
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Bob Shannon wrote:
> 
> Greg Watson wrote:
> 
> > I fully believe in and support open discussion about SMOT.
> >
> > NO RESTRICTIONS.
> >
> > I also know that some wild ideas have flown about and that if a SMOT
> > ramp had been played with before, the ideas could have been better
> > directed.
> >
> > For the first time that I know, a quick, easy, low cost and simple to
> > construct device has been placed in the public domain for all to play
> > with and discuss.  There is even video of the devices working to be
> > viewed by all.  When was the last time that happened?
> >
> > If the SMOT ramp required mega hours and/or dollars to build and a lab
> > full of equipment to test, then more theory based discussion is to be
> > expected.  This has been the norm for most of the ideas presented on
> > these groups.  However, with SMOT that is NOT the case.
> 
> Whoa there, discussion of the theory plays just as important a role in an
> easy to produce device as it does in a difficult to produce device.
> 
> I fail to see your point here.

For the first time, you can base discussion on a real device!

> > For the first time, YOU can build a SMOT ramp in a few hours, play with
> > it, think about what your eyes and hands are telling you.  It then OPENS
> > up a whole world of discussions based on the operational characteristics
> > observed by so many.
> 
> Clearly you prefer that anyone wishing to join the discussion has first built
> your device.  I guess you feel is unlikely people could discuss its operation
> without first having built one.

No, that's not so.  Its just that, for most of us, the quality of the
discussion seems higher once a device is built.

> > Pure theory based discussion is OK.  Go for it.  But I really believe
> > YOU and all the rest of us will get a lot more out of the discussions
> > once YOU have built a SMOT ramp.
> >
> > Thats why I keep on saying "Build a SMOT ramp, then talk".
> >
> > It improves the signal to noise ratio.
> 
> Your beginning to sound a bit like an 'infomercial' Greg, but I'll be happy
> to do my part in keeping the SNR down by not posting on the subject from
> now on.

Hi Bob,

That is NOT what I or this group needs.

We need all the input we can get.  Yours included!!!!!!!!!!


Best Regards and Good Thinking,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 18:56:41 1997
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Message-ID: <3390D57B.1C83@microtronics.com.au>
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 11:20:51 +0930
From: Greg Watson <gwatson@microtronics.com.au>
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CC: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: SMOT Kit Offer Update (1st June, 1997)
References: <3390CB13.9FFDB53E@verisoft.com.tr>
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Hamdi Ucar wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> This kit have historical value. I recommend that every one have one.
> Build or keep it as original package. It will be the most precious piece
> of the science museum in the next years. Greg, did you putting date and
> serial number on it?
> 
> I am still cautious about announcing this kit on a WEB page. A friend of
> mine after who does not believe the miracle said after reading the KIT
> option "He already closed the loop in other way". He implied business.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Hamdi Ucar

Hi Hamdi,

Each SMOT ramp's base will be serial numbered, dated and signed my me.
And there are 4 in each kit.


Best Regards,
 Greg

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 19:24:20 1997
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Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 11:50:18 +0930
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Subject: SMOT sims and mesh size
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Hi All,

I have attached the mesh I used to generate the "looking from the top"
sims.  As Scott says, I am limited to 500 nodes, but the guys at Quick
Field claim to do some fancy footwork and produce results much finer
than 500 nodes would otherwise produce.  It seems to work.

Anyway, here is the mesh in the raw.
 Greg

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--------------244366B57DAF--


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat May 31 23:46:32 1997
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 23:45:32 -0700 (PDT)
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: skot@compumedia.com (Scott Becker)
Subject: SMOT output
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One way to get an output from the closed loop SMOT would be to
make the ball land on or bump a piezoelectric element when it
falls off the end of the ramp. If it falls hard it might make
an arc ( like in a gas grill ignition ) but it should at least
make an LED light briefly.

                                    Scott Becker
                                    skot@compumedia.com


/********************************************************/
/* I don't think that energy is conserved, but it       */
/* doesn't matter if useful over-unity operation works! */
/********************************************************/

