From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul  1 06:28:54 1999
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From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS@ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
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Chad,

I'm here in Columbus Ohio, I was hoping to find someone local to do some hands 
on kibitzing with.

Maybe we should ambush Paul the next time he's on one of these call-in radio 
talk shows and ask him why they don't respond to their email? <:^)

Bill
webriggs@concentric.net
briggs@XLNsystems.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul  1 12:47:39 1999
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Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 22:45:15 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix@verisoft.com.tr>
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Hi,

This is the Conclusion section of the Vesselin Petkov's paper "Propulsion Through Electromagnetic Self-Sustained Acceleration" (http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/physics/9906059):

"Conclusion

At present it does not appear realistic to expect that a self-sustained acceleration of a body (equal or  greater than its initial acceleration) can be achieved. However, the possibility for eventual practical  applications of the effect of mass reduction







 can be assessed if macroscopic charge distributions are  considered. It appears that most promising will be the use of specially designed capacitors like the  commercial ones which consist of alternatively charged layers of metal foil rolled into the sha







pe of a  cylinder with the cylinder axis parallel to a or g . Such capacitors can be charged to large amounts of  charge. There are capacitors already available on the market that can carry a charge well above 1 C. With  such (and greater) amounts of char







ge the experimental testing of the mass reduction effect appears now  possible although it is not a real issue since this effect is a direct consequence of the classical  electrodynamics when applied to a non-inertial dipole a!
nd for this reason there should be no doubt that it  will be experimentally confirmed. The purpose of this paper is to demonstrate that the practical  applicability of the mass reduction effect may be within reach if proper technological effort is investe







d."


It appears that this paper is  filling theoretical the gap of many electro-gravity, space propulsion  related patents, experiments and works. 

Although J.Naudin's HV based experiments does not gives clear results (IMO), applying HV to thin wire near to air break-up conditions may make sense if the claimed effect (Naudin) is based to high strength of the electric field at proximity of the wire.

Regards, hamdi ucar

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul  2 04:05:32 1999
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Recently received the following info from a friend on vortexes... can any one comment on this?  I hadn't heard this before...?


> Thank you for your quick reply and for this I will give you some new knowledge that you already know and some number stuff for you to go crazy with.
> First I took some pictures this am of a deer laying in our back yard - will send to you when I get picture developed.
> Liquids flow in hexagonal streams (hex is 6) and when agitated flow in spirals (1) 6+1=7 the common lucky number - when agitated more severely become broken spirals (I do not know if spirals is the correct terminology but take a line and grow bigger in 







circles) and when speeding past the severely agitated again seem to become hexagonal streams. Now are all the items one or six. is the stream six because of its shape or one and is the spiral also a hexagonal stream? So the 666 can become confused with 1 







and therefore evil.
> The weather is damp and damper but we are still alive - there is no grim reaper just people lost in the stream of life.
> Have a nice day.
> Allen

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul  2 12:20:46 1999
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Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 22:19:24 +0300
From: hamdi ucar <hamdix@verisoft.com.tr>
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Hi,

I will be off web for one month, but continue to (wind)surfing on Aegean sea. 
Wish me good wind and I wish to all plenty of free energy. Essentially they are the same.:)

hamdi ucar

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul  2 23:30:36 1999
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From: "Peter Nielsen" <mindtech@nor.com.au>
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Subject: Re: Counterwound Toroidal Helical Antenna with Ultra Wideband 	  radio? (was Re: VACE costs)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:27:57 +1000
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>> That's steering, not cancellation. For a scalar translation to occur, the
EM
>> vectors must sum to zero.
>>

>That is precisely my point. How do you get a 'perfect' cancellation
>without'cancelled' energy showing up somewhere close-by (like going in
another
>direction) ?
>
>Alik S.
>

When cancellation occurs fully, there is no residual  directionality. It's
gone through the rabbit hole. That's vector analysis.

But there are other dimensions, and they _are_ "close by".

Peter Nielsen

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Jul  3 01:53:57 1999
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Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 03:50:22 -0500
From: Chad May <chadmay@net-serv.com>
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Hi All,

Thanks again to those of you who have written-in with interest in a
mail-list for Geet and closely related technology.

There have been 8 people respond so far.

Peter Michel, State Director of Geet for Pennsylvania, has kindly
written and expressed his support.  He tries to help take some of the
load off the GEET organization by helping interested people with their
questions.  His website is http://www.geet.net  Notice that his web-site
domain ends in .net and Paul Pantone's ends in .com .  Peter also
mentioned that he knows of many GEET enthusiasts that will likely
participate.

Personally, I hope that our planet experiences a "Grass-roots Energy
Revolution".  GEET could possibly be conventional enough to be globally
reproduceable but "phenomenal" enough that it open-up convetional
applied science to other promising spin-off inventions.  

We really ought to begin an FAQ about Geet.  It could easily grow quite
large and even become part of the package that GEET sells with its
kits.  I don't know about other people, but I would much rather read
well-formatted hard-copy as opposed to on-screen text (or bothering with
formatting and printing web-based documents). 

I put a homepage on http://members.xoom.com/chadmay/index.htm in order
to support the list.  Hey, it was free - so why not?  I don't have
anything relevant there yet but will be adding to it in the coming days.

Please send me your suggestions and comments.

All the best,

Chad May  chadmay@net-serv.com

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> >That is precisely my point. How do you get a 'perfect' cancellation
> >without'cancelled' energy showing up somewhere close-by (like going in
> another
> >direction) ?
> >
> >Alik S.
> >
>
> When cancellation occurs fully, there is no residual  directionality. It's
> gone through the rabbit hole. That's vector analysis.

My silly question is if anyone has ever come up with an experimental set upwhere
EM energy disappears into a 'rabbit hole' as you put it. By the way,
it is very easy to pump radio waves back into a transmitter - that is not
disappearing EM but a disappearing output amp.

Alik S.


>
>
> But there are other dimensions, and they _are_ "close by".
>
> Peter Nielsen



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Jul  3 10:17:22 1999
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Subject: Re: scalar em, was Counterwound Toroidal Helical Antenna with
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At 08:38 AM 07/03/99 -0700, Peter wrote:
>> When cancellation occurs fully, there is no residual  directionality. It's
>> gone through the rabbit hole. That's vector analysis.
>>
>>
>> But there are other dimensions, and they _are_ "close by".
>>
>> Peter Nielsen

C'mon man. You are scaring me ;-) 
And with mention of 'Rabbit Holes', you guys are just going to have to take
this over to VortexC  ;-)


I understand that with two opposing magnetic fields, there arises a
[vector] potential energy. Simply expressed-- two magnetic forces pushing
against each other. Kinetic energy is energy of movement, but this is a
magnetic potential energy similar to a compressed spring-- two opposing
magnets facing each other. So 'scalar' is just potential [magnetic] energy?
I'm curious about my (simplistic?) definition. Thanks.

Best,
Colin

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Jul  3 10:40:02 1999
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From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: Re: scalar em, was Counterwound Toroidal Helical Antenna with Ultra Wideband   radio? (was Re: VACE costs)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:45:01 -0400
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Alik wrote:
>My silly question is if anyone has ever come up with an experimental set
upwhere
>EM energy disappears into a 'rabbit hole' as you put it. By the way,
>it is very easy to pump radio waves back into a transmitter - that is not
>disappearing EM but a disappearing output amp.
>
>Alik S.

Hey Alik,

Do you have any references for that?  I'm involved with another project
where the term "negative resistance" is being suggested in a radiolike
set-up, and I'd like to see some specific studies if they are webbed up.
Did you look at Bill B's Torsion Physics page, BTW?  There is a bunch of
stuff that you would be interested in.  If you haven't seen it let me know
and I'll look up the URL.  I'm not sure I believe in "the rabbit hole"
either, especially in regards to standing waves.  I think that they just may
be two dimensional and difficult to recieve in the direction that they were
transmitted.  Transversly, seems to be the way to do it.  I have to give it
some more thought.

Knuke,


Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke@LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Jul  4 16:02:47 1999
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To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: scalar em, was Counterwound Toroidal Helical Antenna with Ultra Wideband   radio? (was Re: VACE costs)
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>C'mon man. You are scaring me ;-)
>And with mention of 'Rabbit Holes', you guys are just going to have to take
>this over to VortexC  ;-)
>

You're too late Colin :-) This scalar bit, and the definition thereof,  was
discussed on the list about two years ago. Interesting reading, with
contributions by experienced researchers, including Bob Shannon who designed
the Barkhausen scalar detector on Bill's site. Archives worth checking out.

The point was that any "free" energy must be non-physical in origin, and the
acquisitional window to higher dimensions is the EM-to-scalar translation.
This is implied in a number of the classic O/U designs. The actual means of
transfer is induced sympathetic resonance between the two domains.

>I understand that with two opposing magnetic fields, there arises a
>[vector] potential energy. Simply expressed-- two magnetic forces pushing
>against each other. Kinetic energy is energy of movement, but this is a
>magnetic potential energy similar to a compressed spring-- two opposing
>magnets facing each other.
>
>Colin
>

If you take it to the particle level, it is like two pushing "through" each
other. But it is not the same as a bucking field of two opposing magnets,
because, distinct from a bifiliar coil,  the field lines simply distort.

Peter



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To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: scalar em, was Counterwound Toroidal Helical Antenna with Ultra Wideband 	  radio? (was Re: VACE costs)
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>My silly question is if anyone has ever come up with an experimental set
upwhere
>EM energy disappears into a 'rabbit hole' as you put it. By the way,
>it is very easy to pump radio waves back into a transmitter - that is not
>disappearing EM but a disappearing output amp.
>
>Alik S.
>

I am involved primarily with the biological effects of scalar waves. There
is no question something unusual happens when energies mutually cancel. An
amplified evoked response. But they must cancel fully, with no avenue of
escape. Otherwise you are just changing the geometry of the field, or, at
best, producing a non-local effect with tensors.

The best known translator is a bifiliar coil, with one set of ends connected
together. Anyone can demonstrate the loss in EMR, and that it could not have
been propagated away by conventional means. That it translates into another
dimension is an assumption based on quantum theory. More correctly, it is an
assumption for those who do not have a working free energy device.

However, it is not surprising that we can feel what cannot be measured.
That's why dowsing works. The nature of living systems is
multi-dimensional. Maybe this is why so many intuitively believe that
technological free energy is possible. It's just a bit off the normal
playing field.

Peter






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At 08:51 AM 07/05/99 +1000, you wrote:
>>C'mon man. You are scaring me ;-)
>>And with mention of 'Rabbit Holes', you guys are just going to have to take
>>this over to VortexC  ;-)
>>
>
>You're too late Colin :-) This scalar bit, and the definition thereof,  was
>discussed on the list about two years ago. Interesting reading, with
>contributions by experienced researchers, including Bob Shannon who designed
>the Barkhausen scalar detector on Bill's site. Archives worth checking out.
>

I arrived late into that conversation, but I remember. ( It's just that the
rabbits are a permanent part of VortexC now..  ;-))
Some of you were designing new Barkhausen detectors. What's Bob up to now? 


>The point was that any "free" energy must be non-physical in origin, and the
>acquisitional window to higher dimensions is the EM-to-scalar translation.
>This is implied in a number of the classic O/U designs. The actual means of
>transfer is induced sympathetic resonance between the two domains.

That's too esoteric for my dull old wits. I need something I can swing on :))

>
>>I understand that with two opposing magnetic fields, there arises a
>>[vector] potential energy. Simply expressed-- two magnetic forces pushing
>>against each other. Kinetic energy is energy of movement, but this is a
>>magnetic potential energy similar to a compressed spring-- two opposing
>>magnets facing each other.
>>
>>Colin
>>
>
>If you take it to the particle level, it is like two pushing "through" each
>other. But it is not the same as a bucking field of two opposing magnets,
>because, distinct from a bifiliar coil,  the field lines simply distort.
>

That's right. Maybe that particular distortion is doing something locally
to the plenum, but from a further distance, do they not cancel?. 

Best,
cq

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul  5 17:33:13 1999
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From: "Peter Nielsen" <mindtech@nor.com.au>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: scalar em, was Counterwound Toroidal Helical Antenna with Ultra Wideband   radio? (was Re: VACE costs)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:13:55 +1000
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>Some of you were designing new Barkhausen detectors. What's Bob up to now?
>

That wasn't me. I do scalar transmitters and let the body do the detecting.
Haven't heard from Bob since late last year. He was working on FTL vortices
with a programmed substructure for reality engineering.

>>The point was that any "free" energy must be non-physical in origin ...
>
>That's too esoteric for my dull old wits. I need something I can swing on
:))
>

Esoteric?? Have you heard about the fish that went looking for water?

>That's right. Maybe that particular distortion is doing something locally
>to the plenum, but from a further distance, do they not cancel?.
>
>Colin
>

Does _anything_ within the physical domain cancel? Cancelling does not mean
conversion. It means an empty rabbit hole that refills from the other end.

Peter




From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Jul  6 07:36:53 1999
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Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 06:07:33
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Dave Dameron <ddameron@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: scalar em, was Counterwound Toroidal Helical Antenna with
  Ultra Wideband radio?
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Hi Peter, Colin and all,
At 09:02 AM 7/5/99 +1000, Peter wrote:

>The best known translator is a bifiliar coil, with one set of ends connected
>together. Anyone can demonstrate the loss in EMR, and that it could not have
>been propagated away by conventional means. That it translates into another
>dimension is an assumption based on quantum theory. More correctly, it is an
>assumption for those who do not have a working free energy device.
>
Even with this bifilar coil, the magnetic fields do not _completely_
cancel. I do not think this was completely resolved in the previous
discussions. In particular, the fields between the (pairs of) wires add.
Perhaps the phrase "completely cancel" should be changed to "are
contained"? In any case, the total magnetic energy is greatly reduced.
-Dave

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Jul  6 12:57:26 1999
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Dave Dameron wrote:

> Hi Peter, Colin and all,
> At 09:02 AM 7/5/99 +1000, Peter wrote:
>
> >The best known translator is a bifiliar coil, with one set of ends connected
> >together. Anyone can demonstrate the loss in EMR, and that it could not have
> >been propagated away by conventional means. That it translates into another
> >dimension is an assumption based on quantum theory. More correctly, it is an
> >assumption for those who do not have a working free energy device.
> >
> Even with this bifilar coil, the magnetic fields do not _completely_
> cancel. I do not think this was completely resolved in the previous
> discussions. In particular, the fields between the (pairs of) wires add.
> Perhaps the phrase "completely cancel" should be changed to "are
> contained"? In any case, the total magnetic energy is greatly reduced.
> -Dave

yes but the current thats goes inside the coil must be as high as a short
circuit. The voltage drop must be close to zero. So there you have, driving a
coil that consumes a lot of current for nothing.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Jul  6 13:10:48 1999
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Subject: off-topic - K Values
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I've been looking at a few sites related to T.T. Brown and his research,
and all the sites i've looked at tell me to use dielectrics with higher K
values to increase performance.  Problem is, none of those sites give lists
of materials and their K values....can any of you help?  I know that
glycerine has a value somewhere in the 50's, and wax has a single digit
value, or so i'm told...anybody out there have a link to a chart with values?

Thanks



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Jul  6 22:47:44 1999
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From: Dave Dameron <ddameron@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: scalar em, was Counterwound Toroidal Helical Antenna
  withUltra  Wideband radio?
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Hi Patrick and all,
At 03:54 AM 7/6/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>> Even with this bifilar coil, the magnetic fields do not _completely_
>> cancel. I do not think this was completely resolved in the previous
>> discussions. In particular, the fields between the (pairs of) wires add.
>> Perhaps the phrase "completely cancel" should be changed to "are
>> contained"? In any case, the total magnetic energy is greatly reduced.
>> -Dave
>
>yes but the current thats goes inside the coil must be as high as a short
>circuit. The voltage drop must be close to zero. So there you have, driving a
>coil that consumes a lot of current for nothing.

Yes, it is almost a non-inductive resistor, thus almost no energy in the
magnetic field. I haven't compared its inductance to a same wires as a
straight 2 conductor cable with the far end shorted. But I agree that the
interactions to cause this are very interesting.

I see the effect of the magnetic fields in mine by a repulsive force
between the turns.
>
-Dave

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul  7 07:49:22 1999
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Hope someone has sent you a link, if not a very comprehensive listing can be
found in 'Reference Data for Radio Engineers' by Howard W. Sams.

or

'Electronics Engineer's Handbook', author Fink, published by McGraw Hill.

or for a less complete or detailed listing,

'The Electronics Handbook' by Jerry C. Whitaker, the CRC Press/IEEE Press.

Needless to say K depends on a number of things among which are Temperature
and Frequency and material quality (which can very greatly).

Maybe this will help.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rymel <rymel@mindspring.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 3:12 PM
Subject: off-topic - K Values


>I've been looking at a few sites related to T.T. Brown and his research,
>and all the sites i've looked at tell me to use dielectrics with higher K
>values to increase performance.  Problem is, none of those sites give lists
>of materials and their K values....can any of you help?  I know that
>glycerine has a value somewhere in the 50's, and wax has a single digit
>value, or so i'm told...anybody out there have a link to a chart with
values?
>
>Thanks
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul  7 11:50:00 1999
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Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:48:39 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" <jdo@ucalgary.ca>
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Has anyone in the above area seen the "Remote Power Unit" (free energy
device tapping into the earth's energy field) and the "Atmospheric Water
Unit" (produces +200 gal/day water from ambient air).I would appreciate
communicating with anyone willing or interested in checking this
technology, if you have not already done so. Jorg Ostrowski

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul  7 12:21:47 1999
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From: dave.tingley@juno.com
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:11:24 -0400
Subject: Re: ECOM/Louisville KY demo
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I once visited their web pages and I sent them an email requesting more
info, but got no reply.

Dave

On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:48:39 -0600 (MDT) "Jorg D. Ostrowski"
<jdo@ucalgary.ca> writes:
> 
> Has anyone in the above area seen the "Remote Power Unit" (free 
> energy
> device tapping into the earth's energy field) and the "Atmospheric 
> Water
> Unit" (produces +200 gal/day water from ambient air).I would 
> appreciate
> communicating with anyone willing or interested in checking this
> technology, if you have not already done so. Jorg Ostrowski
> 

================================================
dave.tingley@juno.com
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/3992/dt.html
While the people are virtuous, they cannot be subdued; but when they lose
their virtue they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first
external or internal invader.  Samuel Adams

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul  7 13:50:57 1999
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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 16:42:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS@ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: Re: ECOM/Louisville KY demo
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Dave,

>I once visited their web pages and I sent them an email requesting more
>info, but got no reply.

>Dave


And the web site is???  ;^{>

Bill
webriggs@concentric.net
briggs@XLNsystems.com

DISCLAIMER - Any half baked flakey ideas presented are my own,
             and not the half baked flakey ideas of my employer!

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul  7 20:05:39 1999
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From: dave.tingley@juno.com
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 22:34:05 -0400
Subject: Re: ECOM/Louisville KY demo
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Its at:

http://hometown.aol.com/Skywell/

Dave

On Wed, 07 Jul 1999 16:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Bill Briggs 614-752-0199
<MH2_BRIGGS@ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov> writes:
> Dave,
> 
> >I once visited their web pages and I sent them an email requesting 
> more
> >info, but got no reply.
> 
> >Dave
> 
> 
> And the web site is???  ;^{>
> 
> Bill
> webriggs@concentric.net
> briggs@XLNsystems.com
> 
> DISCLAIMER - Any half baked flakey ideas presented are my own,
>              and not the half baked flakey ideas of my employer!
> 

================================================
dave.tingley@juno.com
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/3992/dt.html
While the people are virtuous, they cannot be subdued; but when they lose
their virtue they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first
external or internal invader.  Samuel Adams

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul  8 05:09:07 1999
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From: Cornwall RO <R.O.Cornwall@city.ac.uk>
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Freenrg,
I have my paper on Thermo-electric convertors improved and now in web
format. The site may change and the style of the website may change with
better web tactics being used. Just bare with the download and all will go
well.

Go to the link for the paper. Experimental details will be posted, like
a picture of the apparatus.
Remi. 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul  8 05:17:52 1999
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Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 13:17:23 +0100 (BST)
From: Cornwall RO <R.O.Cornwall@city.ac.uk>
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http://www.city.ac.uk/~remi/Index.htm

On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Cornwall RO wrote:

> Freenrg,
> I have my paper on Thermo-electric convertors improved and now in web
> format. The site may change and the style of the website may change with
> better web tactics being used. Just bare with the download and all will go
> well.
> 
> Go to the link for the paper. Experimental details will be posted, like
> a picture of the apparatus.
> Remi. 
> 
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul  8 08:16:47 1999
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From: "Mark Charkin" <mcharkin@cetemmsa.es>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Any help?
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 17:14:17 +0200
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Dear Bob Shannon

Hi there, I was trying to find out more info on longitudnal waves as an
in-depth research project to do, part of which encaptulates this area. I
would appreciate it if you could give me any ideas of any fairly
non-technical books that I could use for research into this area.

The main things I want to work out are as follows;

(1) which animals are able to hear these sounds
(2) through which mediums do these sounds travel and at what speeds (i guess
it depends on the density of the material?)
(3) what machines do they have to recreate these sounds? I know you can get
dog whistles which produce these sounds, and there are radar type equipment
things that are used under water, but what else.

There are one or two other points and if you could either shed light on them
or point me in the right direction id be indebted. Thanks

By the way I am a Brit, living in Spain in case you wondered where I am (i
always do with email!)

Best regards

Mark


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul  8 08:31:58 1999
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Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 17:29:24 +0200
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Dear Bob Shannon

Hi there, I was trying to find out more info on longitudnal waves as an
in-depth research project to do, part of which encaptulates this area. I
would appreciate it if you could give me any ideas of any fairly
non-technical books that I could use for research into this area.

The main things I want to work out are as follows;

(1) which animals are able to hear these sounds
(2) through which mediums do these sounds travel and at what speeds (i guess
it depends on the density of the material?)
(3) what machines do they have to recreate these sounds? I know you can get
dog whistles which produce these sounds, and there are radar type equipment
things that are used under water, but what else.

There are one or two other points and if you could either shed light on them
or point me in the right direction id be indebted. Thanks

By the way I am a Brit, living in Spain in case you wondered where I am (i
always do with email!)

Best regards

Mark


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul  8 12:34:56 1999
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From: Keasy@aol.com
Message-ID: <3c8967a3.24b65702@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 15:33:22 EDT
Subject: VACE -type Magnets --where to obtain????
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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I have an experiment planned but need a couple washer-shaped magnets with the 
magnetization circular, internal to the disks.  I know there has been some 
discussion regarding similar torus-shaped magnets.  Does anyone know of a 
source for these type of magnets?
    I've searched the catalogs I have without success.  It turns out I have 
several excellent ceramic magnets 2'' OD, 1 1/4" ID 1/8" thick which would be 
ideal except, of course the magnetization is perpendicular.  Is changing the 
magnetization with standard electrical lab equipment a reasonable possibility?
                                                                 Thanks       
        Ken
    

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul  8 16:17:46 1999
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Message-ID: <000d01bec997$a0b4ca00$24a310cf@richard>
From: "Ryan James" <rjames@arn.net>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
References: <3c8967a3.24b65702@aol.com>
Subject: Re: VACE -type Magnets --where to obtain????
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 18:14:25 -0500
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I'm sending you a web page on a magnet dealer that I ran across through
e-bay
I have an idea about a magnet powered motor but I am uneducated and don't
understand half the stuff mailed to me though this newsletter but everyone
that I show my idea to says that you can't create energy without a source
and it won't just come out of nowhere that something has to generate it. I
don't understand this because I thought that magnets have stored energy
which make them repel each other
thanks
Ryan
----- Original Message -----
From: <Keasy@aol.com>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 2:33 PM
Subject: VACE -type Magnets --where to obtain????


> I have an experiment planned but need a couple washer-shaped magnets with
the
> magnetization circular, internal to the disks.  I know there has been some
> discussion regarding similar torus-shaped magnets.  Does anyone know of a
> source for these type of magnets?
>     I've searched the catalogs I have without success.  It turns out I
have
> several excellent ceramic magnets 2'' OD, 1 1/4" ID 1/8" thick which would
be
> ideal except, of course the magnetization is perpendicular.  Is changing
the
> magnetization with standard electrical lab equipment a reasonable
possibility?
>                                                                  Thanks
>         Ken
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul  8 17:20:47 1999
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Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 15:41:52
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Dave Dameron <ddameron@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: VACE -type Magnets --where to obtain????
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Hi Ken and all,
At 03:33 PM 7/8/99 EDT, you wrote:
>I have an experiment planned but need a couple washer-shaped magnets with
the 
>magnetization circular, internal to the disks.  I know there has been some 
>discussion regarding similar torus-shaped magnets.  Does anyone know of a 
>source for these type of magnets?
>    I've searched the catalogs I have without success.  It turns out I have 
>several excellent ceramic magnets 2'' OD, 1 1/4" ID 1/8" thick which would
be 
>ideal except, of course the magnetization is perpendicular.  Is changing the 
>magnetization with standard electrical lab equipment a reasonable
possibility?
>                                                                 Thanks
   

I have some small ceramic ring magnets with 2 N and 2 S poles on each face.
Have tried to pole them circularly with a toroid winding and capacitor pulser.
So far I have not been successful in removing these poles. Hope to heat
them above their Curie temp., maybe repoling is easier if they have already
been depoled?
-Dave
ps. now I see Neodym ring magnets as well for sale, perp. poled.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul  8 21:31:39 1999
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Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 00:43:10 -0400
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Keith Nagel <knagel@cnct.com>
Subject: Re: VACE -type Magnets --where to obtain????
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At 03:41 PM 7/8/99, you wrote:
>I have some small ceramic ring magnets with 2 N and 2 S poles on each face.
>Have tried to pole them circularly with a toroid winding and capacitor
pulser.
>So far I have not been successful in removing these poles. Hope to heat
>them above their Curie temp., maybe repoling is easier if they have already
>been depoled?
>-Dave
>ps. now I see Neodym ring magnets as well for sale, perp. poled.
>

Well, sounds like you need a larger amplitude pulse. It's peak
current thats important, not duration, for basic polarization.
Try a higher voltage on the cap. Also, yes, it's easier to
pole the things when you've erased them with a furnace. Frankly,
you're going to find out just how difficult it really is to get
a good torroidal field without leakage, you'll be able to
SEE the leakage with magnetic viewing paper. But likely
you already know this...

K.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul  8 22:50:31 1999
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Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 21:20:52
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From: Dave Dameron <ddameron@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: VACE -type Magnets --where to obtain????
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Hi Keith and all,
At 12:43 AM 7/8/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Well, sounds like you need a larger amplitude pulse. It's peak
>current thats important, not duration, for basic polarization.
>Try a higher voltage on the cap. Also, yes, it's easier to
>pole the things when you've erased them with a furnace. Frankly,
>you're going to find out just how difficult it really is to get
>a good torroidal field without leakage, you'll be able to
>SEE the leakage with magnetic viewing paper. But likely
>you already know this...
>
Yes, and thanks. I have found the Curie temp. for ceramic magnets to be 460
deg. C. It makes sense that a H field will do more with no B field to start
with than to oppose the existing. The H(c) of 3200Amp-turns/cm says more
juice is required than I tried. Haven't tried magnetic viewing paper yet,
but think Edmund Sci. carries it.
-Dave



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul  9 00:39:57 1999
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From: "flytch er" <flytch@hotmail.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: VACE -type Magnets --where to obtain????
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 00:39:03 PDT
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...
>torroidal field without leakage, you'll be able to
>SEE the leakage with magnetic viewing paper. But likely
>you already know this...
>
>K.
>
please excuse my ignorance but what is "magnetic viewing paper"???

flytch...


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul  9 12:26:20 1999
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Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:25:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Tesla's Big Mistake
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I finally figured out something regarding Tesla coils, conventional
physics, and longitudinal waves.   Tesla's "world system" was a
"G-line" microwave transmission system, but running at VLF rather than
microwaves!  It used longitudinal waves, yet it didn't.   Check it out: 

   Tesla's Big Mistake
   http://www.amasci.com/tesla/tmistk.html


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul  9 17:02:30 1999
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Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 20:14:05 -0400
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Keith Nagel <knagel@cnct.com>
Subject: Re: VACE -type Magnets --where to obtain????
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Hi.

Well, I've seen this header for a while, but I'm
not sure what the intent is. Can you give it to
me in a nutshell?

I've found with the ceramics that I need to get
much higher temps to erase the magnets. But, perhaps
the problem is positioning in the furnace. 

Also, bear in mind that most ring magnets are
made with anisotropic material, usually the
direction is perpendicular to the face of
the magnet. I'm not sure you want this for
your torroidal magnet experiment. It will
tend to encourage flux to exit the magnet.
Specify the isotropic kind when you order.
And no, I've yet to figure out how to tell
just from looking at the beast in a surplus
shop. 

K.

Fly something-or-another asked about magnetic
paper. As Dave mentioned, it's available from
Edmund Scientic, and it allows you to view
magnetic flux. Its more of a plastic than
a paper, actually.

At 09:20 PM 7/8/99, you wrote:
>Hi Keith and all,
>At 12:43 AM 7/8/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>Well, sounds like you need a larger amplitude pulse. It's peak
>>current thats important, not duration, for basic polarization.
>>Try a higher voltage on the cap. Also, yes, it's easier to
>>pole the things when you've erased them with a furnace. Frankly,
>>you're going to find out just how difficult it really is to get
>>a good torroidal field without leakage, you'll be able to
>>SEE the leakage with magnetic viewing paper. But likely
>>you already know this...
>>
>Yes, and thanks. I have found the Curie temp. for ceramic magnets to be 460
>deg. C. It makes sense that a H field will do more with no B field to start
>with than to oppose the existing. The H(c) of 3200Amp-turns/cm says more
>juice is required than I tried. Haven't tried magnetic viewing paper yet,
>but think Edmund Sci. carries it.
>-Dave
>
>
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Jul 10 00:21:18 1999
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--------------F758D12F8F29A0CC07855595
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Yes, I would like to know where to purchase this magnetic viewing
paper!!!!

flytch er wrote:

> ...
> >torroidal field without leakage, you'll be able to
> >SEE the leakage with magnetic viewing paper. But likely
> >you already know this...
> >
> >K.
> >
> please excuse my ignorance but what is "magnetic viewing paper"???
>
> flytch...
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<i><font face="Tahoma">Yes, I would like to know where to purchase this
magnetic viewing paper!!!!</font></i>
<p>flytch er wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>...
<br>>torroidal field without leakage, you'll be able to
<br>>SEE the leakage with magnetic viewing paper. But likely
<br>>you already know this...
<br>>
<br>>K.
<br>>
<br>please excuse my ignorance but what is "magnetic viewing paper"???
<p>flytch...
<p>_______________________________________________________________
<br>Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit <a href="http://www.msn.com">http://www.msn.com</a></blockquote>
</html>

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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Jul 10 01:39:46 1999
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From: "Harvey Norris" <tesla4@excite.com>
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On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:25:24 -0700 (PDT), William Beaty wrote:

> 
> I finally figured out something regarding Tesla coils, conventional
> physics, and longitudinal waves.   Tesla's "world system" was a
> "G-line" microwave transmission system, but running at VLF rather than
> microwaves!  It used longitudinal waves, yet it didn't.   Check it out: 
> 
>    Tesla's Big Mistake
>    http://www.amasci.com/tesla/tmistk.html
> 
>> Great synopsis Bill Beaty! Two days ago you could have wrote
this for Teslas birthday momento. I have never seen a step down
tesla transformer or perhaps isolation transformer as you imagine.
     This then makes for skepticism. A few things about tesla coils
are often assumed but always do not work.
     Years ago, if I am not mistaken in my calculations, I built and
concieved of the following experiment. A 1500 ft coil secondary
can be built in entirely different geometry and yet contain the same
inductance  by wheelers formula. In fact the conventional tesla
secondary that has a 2/3 height vs diameter ratio actually should
have a coil that appears as a relatively distant ring containing the
same length of wire; also most importantly the the same spacing
between wires to duplicate internal capacitive effects within
approximation.
      What this experiment involved was the inverse of the Colorado
Springs example where a large ring like primary and secondary were
used to energize interior coils that resonated with harmonics.
       This difference in this experiment was to show that when an
interior coil was energized a further secondary well away from the 
actions of the interior coil could still produce signicant voltage effects.
A 20 in diameter inner coil  could produce one quarter the voltage
effects occuring from the ring at 7 ft diameter; constructed with wide
spacings between wires to reproduce identical inductances.
( This was before the use of induction meters and was constructed
very poorly as a preliminary investigation)
       Because of these impressive results a construction of a  larger
13 ft diameter ring was soon began so the theory that two coils of
equal inductance;equal length of wire by quarter wavelength theory;
AND also identical spacing between wires could be shown...
       However in the rush to try to prove an idea I had neglected to 
consider that the 7 ft coil so haphazardly constructed only used 500
ft of wire when spacing of wires was made by numerous toothpick 
holders and when this 18 gauge wire began to sag several days 
later the second test showed a feeble effect before dismantling
for second trial.
       The construction difficulties of this outside project were numerous.
The finished job was quite magnificent but when this 1500 ft ring
was attempted an interaction with the supposed identical 1500 ft
20 diameter tesla coil of equal mathematically predicted inductance
on the outside produced virtually no effect!
      This of course produced no humour in my mind to try lugging
the 20 inch diameter coil inside this completed work to try again
when it was obvious that this idea was not succeeding.
       Most stupidly I had constructed this outside structure in the 
only space available to me; in back of the bar called Waylons
Tavern on the land I now own before sale by inheritance.
      My mother of course owned the bar and would have nothing
to do with my scientific efforts, however my father endorsed
these efforts, whereby this permission was given.
      Only this preliminary test was made in light of the fact that
the next day I was informed that someone had decided to run
their car into the structure, effectivelly destoying it ; whereby
a final reconstruction occured with a 10 ft diameter coil in front
of my doorsteps; so I could keep a better eye out for these
criminals.
      At those times I had not perused Nicola Tesla's  Colorado
Springs Notes which of course sometimes takes a detective
to decipher. However on Sept 19, 1899 Tesla makes the entry that
his specific isolated ground magnifier system works best when
the extra coil functions at 3/4 wavelength, with regard to the
input. Note that I have added words here as an interpretation:
However it seems to tell me that this third ratio becomes very
important in consideration of interacting magnetic fields in space.
       If  a coil induces a current on another coil, we logically assume
by induction  and Lenz Law considerations that  the polarity of the
assumed induction effects creates a magnetic field in opposition
to the magnetic field that caused it, as per lenz law. However
in the interaction of a quarter wavelength exciter interacting in space
with another quarter wavelength wire, this assumed effect is abscent
according to my observations. It is because that a 3/4 wavelength
wire in reaction to a 1/4 wavelength exciter is most effective  that 
Tesla  notes specifically on this date it is for OBVIOUS reasons.
       Obvious to who? Maybe not to the rest of the world. Specifically
perhaps Bill Beatys speculation concerning a one ended wire reaction
acting a step down or isolation transformation on high frequency effects
that may have these special interaction rules not contemplated because
the author still to this day has not been understood.
      In that state of confusion that exists I am dubious concerning any
pronounced statements concerning "Teslas Big Mistake"
      As noted in commentaries Tesla did make mathematical errors in
the Colorado Notes. These were small mistakes. In fact when  I went to 
investigate my own notes concerning this induction hypothesis based on 
identical inductance ringings from coils of different geometries I found
that my wheeler inductance formula itself appears to have been
calculated  from a mistake where 19 A has been replaced by 9 A.
Go Figure! Perhaps this a ground for throwing everything out?
I dont think so.  I am sure if a falsehood is afoot it will be detected.
HDN
        




_______________________________________________________
Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Jul 10 07:03:13 1999
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Freenrg, Vo,

What's the big deal? You have an apparently single conductor is it that it
has a massive capacitance completing the circuit. The primary induces a
current in it and the secondary (is that tertiary?) picks it up. I didn't
get why the 'secondary' was a coil though. If you formulate this, it would
translate better, no?
Remi.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Jul 10 09:22:41 1999
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To Bill, and All;

Thanks for that!

It follows that we could look within nature: 

I.E: 
Can the setup occur naturally with the sun acting as the transmitter? 
Can solar ions can act as a transmission line? 

If we treat the earth as the conductive lump, on the night side of the
planet, raise up a long thin vertical coil. Top it with a large metallic
balloon. 

Comments?

Colin Quinney


At 12:25 PM 07/09/99 -0700, Bill Beaty wrote:
>
>I finally figured out something regarding Tesla coils, conventional
>physics, and longitudinal waves.   Tesla's "world system" was a
>"G-line" microwave transmission system, but running at VLF rather than
>microwaves!  It used longitudinal waves, yet it didn't.   Check it out: 
>
>   Tesla's Big Mistake
>   http://www.amasci.com/tesla/tmistk.html
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Jul 10 12:49:08 1999
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Hi Colin, Bill, et al!

Yes, thanks Bill that is an intriguing idea and 'take' on the Tesla
experiments.  I've never been much on the idea of trasmitting power
globally based on the Colorado Springs test simply because of all the
reports of sparks being drawn from animal hooves and peoples shoes as
they were walking in the area.  These days, with electronics running at
1volt or so, it would create all kinds of havoc so makes no sense.

That is why my focus has been on tapping gravity/aether/zpe directly in
small 'perpetual' batteries to drive each appliance individually.

However, since Colin Quinney queried;
>  ..<snip>...Can the setup occur naturally with the sun acting 
>  as the transmitter? Can solar ions can act as a transmission line? 

it would be interesting to create a UV laser beam which would create an
ionized path to allow a flow of power, just like the shuttle tether
experiment but using the UV laser as the conductor.

One peculiar book called 'Lost Dimension' talks about using such an
ionized beam to extract electrical energy directly from the air into an
ark of the covenant type collector in the great pyramid.

It is a matter of high potential to low, in other words controlled
lightning, so that offers as much opportunity since the solar ions
accumulate in the upper atmosphere, just tap from the pool.....
-- 
           Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker@keelynet.com
         http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
      Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Jul 10 14:01:02 1999
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Hi Bill, Jerry and all,

I like that idea. It's intriguing, using a UV laser to tap into ionospheric
power. I'd like to purchase a couple of those lasers, but I guess they'd be
rather expensive.

Since I can't afford them just yet, I am curious about the vertical RF
antenna power (longitudinal) developed vs normal horizontal RF antenna
power (transverse) from the sun. Using a modified setup like Bill has
described, but tapping into the vertical RF longitudinal power coming
directly from the sun. Normally, the RF transverse power emitted from the
solar surface and developed in a horizontal antenna is minuscule; it's
mostly below the noise level of the antenna. (although there are peaks
above the thermal noise level at various frequencies.) 

What I propose instead is simply an experiment similar the reverse of the
Tesla Wardencliff transmitter. IOW, it's just a Tesla power receiver-- (and
I believe Tesla had a patent on that.) The only difference is that I am
also suggesting using Bill's idea-- but for reception of solar RF
longitudinal waves, instead of from any manmade transmitting device. I
would hope for the power to be greater than that found in any ordinary
antenna.  Can solar ion streams act as G-Lines? Would the vacuum of space
act as an appropriate dielectric? How would I tune it, and to which
frequencies? The fact is; I don't have a clue, but it sounds like a fun
experiment to do (especially on a NON-stormy night!)  :-)

CQ


Jerry Decker wrote:
>However, since Colin Quinney queried;
>>  ..<snip>...Can the setup occur naturally with the sun acting 
>>  as the transmitter? Can solar ions can act as a transmission line? 
>
>it would be interesting to create a UV laser beam which would create an
>ionized path to allow a flow of power, just like the shuttle tether
>experiment but using the UV laser as the conductor.
>


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Jul 11 00:46:48 1999
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On Sat, 10 Jul 1999, Cornwall RO wrote:

> Freenrg, Vo,
> 
> What's the big deal? You have an apparently single conductor is it that it
> has a massive capacitance completing the circuit.

Nope, the capacitance is very small.  There is no complete circuit.  As a
thought experiment, think of a long thin tube-like coil that's 5cm across
and 10km long.  The
ends of the coil are not in capacitive contact with each other at all. Now
imagine that we drive a high-overtone resonance onto that long coil, so
there are hundreds of nodes and antinodes.  Connect a resistor at one of
the high-current antinode points, and the resistor gets hot.  The long
coil acts as a 1-wire transmission line.

Here's another analogy: take a half-wave dipole antenna, drive it with RF
power, then extend one of its wires to a very great length, and connect it
to ANOTHER similar dipole antenna.  Ignore any waves which escape from
this system.  What do we see?  We see waves going along the long wire from
one "dipole" to the other, and if there is a resistor-load connected to
the far "dipole", then the transmitter will heat it up: 


  ____   ________________________________________________   _____
      | |                                                | |
     _|_|_                                              _|_|_
    |     |                                            |     |     
    |Xmtr |                                            |Load |     
    |     |                                            |     |     
    |_____|                                            |_____|


It's like the "G-line" without the metal cones.  (This one is inefficient,
since lots of wave-energy would escape from those dipole stubs.)


A fluid analogy of electric circuits:  in a hydraulic system, we can have
a closed loop of hose, and use it to distribute energy "drive belt style"
to any device connected in series with the hose.  Just like a conventional
electric circuit, right?  Or instead, we can break the circuit, seal the
ends of the hose, then send sound waves through the fluid.  Any device
connected in series with the hose can absorb the sound waves.  The big
difference between a conventional circuit and this "single wire"  circuit
is that, in the 1-wire system, we visualize the electron-sea of the wire
as being a compressible medium.  It's like sending "sound waves" of
electron compression-waves along the single wire.  On the other hand, in a
conventional electric circuit we imagine that the electron-sea of the wire
acts almost like an incompressible solid;  like a solid drive belt that
can be pushed along by a power supply.

In a conventional circuit, the operating frequency can be DC or most any
high AC frequency.  In a conventional circuit the value for current is the
same everywhere on the loop of wire.  In the 1-wire system, an ammeter
could give different readings depending on the spot where it was connected
(just like SWR on a long antenna.)  Think of a Tesla-coil secondary again:
the current near the base is much higher than the current near the upper
terminal, even though the ammeters are connected in series with the same
piece of wire!  "Electricity" in a wire is compressible.  The 1-wire
system is inherently AC and can only handle wave-energy. 


> The primary induces a
> current in it and the secondary (is that tertiary?) picks it up. I didn't
> get why the 'secondary' was a coil though. If you formulate this, it would
> translate better, no?


In the "G-line", the "secondary" is replaced with a straight piece of
wire.  However, the "G-line" needs those metal cones to connect it to the
conventional circuitry.  If we wanted to run the "G-line" at 100KHZ, the
metal cones would be hundreds of meters across.  If we use a long coil
instead of a straight wire, then the speed of light along the coil is very
slow because of the inter-winding capacitance and the inter-winding
inductance.  A couple of feet of wire has an EM resonance in the VHF band,
and if we transmit a 1-foot wave along that wire, the frequency of that
wave will be up in the hundreds of MHZ.  On the other hand, a couple of
feet of tesla-coil secondary has an EM resonance way below 1MHZ.  If we
transmit a wave along a very long piece of "tesla coil secondary", then a
wave with 1-foot wavelength might have a frequency of a few hundred KHZ.
That tesla-coil device in figure one of the article is like a "G-line" 
that can run at kilohertz frequencies rather than at gigahertz.  The tesla
coils themselves only serve as "compression chambers" to give the system a
place to push charge into and out of.  In the microwave "G-line", the
metal cones serve the same purpose.

When looked at from this perspective, Tesla's "World System" is more like
a coaxial cable than like a radio transmitter.  But even a coaxial cable
is not exclusively an "electric current" device, and coax can also be
described in terms of EM waves travelling along between the central
conductor and the shield.  Same ideas apply to Tesla's "World System". 
Tesla was injecting currents into the Earth.  He was also setting up EM
fields which rushed along the surface of the Earth.  Was this "radio"? 
No, unless we want to say that the electrical energy travelling on any
wire is "radio." (A very tiny observer who sits within the fields inside a
coaxial cable might ignore the currents in the metal, and instead believe
that "radio waves" are travelling along in the dielectric of the cable. 


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

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On Sat, 10 Jul 1999, Jerry W. Decker wrote:

> it would be interesting to create a UV laser beam which would create an
> ionized path to allow a flow of power, just like the shuttle tether
> experiment but using the UV laser as the conductor.

Hey, I wonder how fast HAARP can reconfigure the ionospheric plasmas?  If
HAARP can make the conductive ionosphere flap back and forth at high
frequencies, it could convert any DC "earth energy" into radio energy
which could then be extracted by any antenna, or aimed at a particular
spot by other reflecting plasma regions.  Sort of like wiggling a paddle
in a rushing river and making MUCH larger waves than one would expect from
the work done in moving the paddle.  If the solar system injects DC energy
into the earth/ionosphere system, then HAARP could modulate it and bring
Tesla's "world system" into reality (and make corona discharges spew from
every sharp object on the entire earth.)  Nasty!  Sort of like a
solar-powered laser which emits RF instead of light.  


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


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On Sat, 10 Jul 1999, Quinney wrote:

>  Can solar ion streams act as G-Lines? Would the vacuum of space
> act as an appropriate dielectric? How would I tune it, and to which
> frequencies? The fact is; I don't have a clue, but it sounds like a fun
> experiment to do (especially on a NON-stormy night!)  :-)


Lots of AM radio vertical towers already exist.  I wonder if they tend to
receive any significant energy at odd wavelengths? 



((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Jul 11 22:59:29 1999
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Oh yeah, here's another slant on this that I forgot: if we make a dipole
antenna from "TC secondary coils" rather than from straight wires, then we
can create a nonradiating dipole: 


            Half-wave resonant dipole antenna
           (conventional)

     _______________   _______________
                    | |
                    | |
                   _|_|_
                  |     |
                  |Xmitr|
                  |_____|






            Half-wave resonant dipole
            made from small "TC SECONDARY" coils

              _))))_   _ ))))_
                    | |
                    | |
                   _|_|_
                  |     |
                  |Xmitr|
                  |_____|



This second "dipole antenna" is way too small to radiate much Hertzian
energy. (This sounds like something Tesla always harps upon, eh?)  It
might be a foot long, yet has a 100KHZ half-wave frequency.  The "antenna" 
coils do resonate, and so the electrons "slosh" back and forth within them
as if the electron-stuff inside the wires was a compressible gas.


To make an efficient one-wire transmission line, take this thing:

>  _____   ________________________________________________   _____
>       | |                                                | |
>      _|_|_                                              _|_|_
>     |     |                                            |     |     
>     |Xmtr |                                            |Load |     
>     |     |                                            |     |     
>     |_____|                                            |_____|
> 




And replace those 1/4 wave antenna wires with very short coils, and
replace the single wire with a long coil:

>  _(((_   _(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((__   _(((_
>       | |                                                | |
>      _|_|_                                              _|_|_
>     |     |                                            |     |     
>     |Xmtr |                                            |Load |     
>     |     |                                            |     |     
>     |_____|                                            |_____|


Now the system doesn't lose energy out through the antennas.  The
transmitter can push current back and forth, and the small coil on the
transmitter end acts as a sort of "expansion chamber" which can
temporarily hold charge.  If the transmitter creates AC, and the electrons
in the single wire move back and forth, then the load will get hot.  The
potential difference in this system appears between parts of the
travelling wave and NOT necessarily between the ends of the system.  Note
that standing waves are not a requirement: if the load was matched to the
system impedance, then ALL of the energy sent out by the transmitter would
be absorbed by the load-resistance. 


Now put the entire Earth in the circuit:

>  _(((_   _((((__                                __(((((__   _(((_
>       | |       |                              |         | |
>      _|_|_     _|_                            _|_       _|_|_
>     |     |   ////                           ////      |     |     
>     |Xmtr |                                            |Load |     
>     |     |                                            |     |     
>     |_____|                                            |_____|


As Tesla said, the coils are not specifically used as Hertizan antennas,
they are more like "virtual grounds" which allow the transmitter to push
charges into and out of the Earth to create AC.  However, in order for
energy to flow away from the transmission device, the e-field from the
coil MUST be allowed to radiate outwards and connect with other parts of
the e-field from the travelling waves which expand along the ground.  The
coils are not just charge-storage devices, they also act as antennas.

How is this different from a (say) 10KHZ radio system?  IT'S NOT!  That's
Tesla's mistake.  His system is an alternate way to look at radio.  At the
same time, it does have a very big difference from radio: its metal parts
are much smaller than one wavelength, and it is designed to operate at
very, very low frequencies (could be down in the 100s of hertz!)  Instead
of radiating energy via a tuned length of antenna-tower, it uses very high
voltage on a big capacitor plate to "launch" waves along the Earth's
surface, G-line style.   In the G-line, are the metal cones acting as
antennas?  Sort of.  But also not, since a true antenna would not need a
wire to connect the transmitter to the receiver.

A conventional antenna-tower could do the same thing as Tesla's system if
the radio transmitter output was stepped up to very high voltage, so that
the tower acts as one plate of a capacitor, while the earth and ionosphere
act as the other plate.  A resonant transformer could do this, but any
other method of creating high-voltage AC would work too.  If the resonant
transformer was MADE INTO the antenna tower, it might be very confusing to
someone who didn't realize what the system was actually doing. 

How else could someone transmit 7Hz energy along the earth?  (Or 14Hz, or
21, ... up to tens of KHZ.)?   Hard to make an antenna that large.  A
*vertical* antenna would be out of the question unless it was a
balloon-borne wire which was used to make direct contact to the
ionosphere.

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 12 09:05:21 1999
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Bill,
I've just logged on after a bit of work over weekend. I am seeing first in
your series of emails. Give me time to think.

Today I saw along with Prof. Laughton at Queen Mary and Westfield college
a chap called Tony Cuthbert. He's a fascinating, brilliant person with a
highly fecund mind. An inventor unencumbered with orthodox theory. Jean
Paul Naudlin knows him so its a funny small World. Anyway, my point, he
demonstrated something (I'm not allowed to tell you until he puts his
filing in) that is a twist on Newtonian Mechanics. Just when you think you
know it, a genius comes along.

Give me time on Tesla's resonance for the penny to drop. I'll collect your
emails and study them.
Remi.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 12 14:02:15 1999
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Thanks for the interesting news.

It also shows,
that Newmans current motor now only is rated
at under 100 Watts output ?

Didnt he want to achieve 10 KWatts
for the production motor or is this new announcement based
on a different Newman model motor type ?

Regards, Stefan.


Evan Soule schrieb:
> 
>  *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *
> 
>             THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN
>              11445 East Via Linda, Suite 2416
>                  Scottsdale, Arizona 85259
>                       (480) 657-3722
>                  josephnewman@earthlink.net
>                    www.josephnewman.com
> 
>            FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE (July 8, 1999)
> 
>                  NEW, SOLAR PANEL TEST OF
>         JOSEPH NEWMAN'S ENERGY MACHINE TECHNOLOGY!!!
> 
> A comparison  test  was conducted  between a  conventional
> motor and the Newman Motor: each was connected to a series
> of solar panels. NO BATTERIES were used in either test!
> 

--
Hartmann Multimedia Service, 
Dipl. In. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  info@ccard.net
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 12 18:09:47 1999
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Hi Bill et al!

You remain at master at ASCII art..<g>.....but I still think the
transmission of energy through the earth would evoke havoc and
destruction of the electronics our society is currently so reliant on.
-- 
           Jerry Wayne Decker  /   jdecker@keelynet.com
         http://keelynet.com   /  "From an Art to a Science"
      Voice : (214) 324-8741   /   FAX :  (214) 324-3501
   KeelyNet - PO BOX 870716 - Mesquite - Republic of Texas - 75187

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Jul 13 10:39:25 1999
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> >> I will soon be posting information about the forthcoming demonstration in
> >> the Phoenix area on July 25, 1999.  ---- Evan Soule'

Will he run the new motor at over 500 RPM and power a real load
or an AC generator at this July 25, 1999 demo ?

Why doesnt he run it on 2000 Volts DC ?
What RPM will then be achieved ?

For to get it into the KWatts range he needs to run it
at these higher voltages !

Or is he now trying to market this as a Solar powered motor 
in the 10 to 100 Watt range ?

But for this wattage rating the motor is much too expensive to build !

Regards, Stefan.


--
Hartmann Multimedia Service, 
Dipl. In. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  info@ccard.net
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Jul 13 14:46:19 1999
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Hi All,

somebody emailed me this statement,
which is found there on Newmans site:
http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/6087/update7-2-99.txt

=======================================================================

      ******** Production Information Update ******** 7-2-1999 *****

Please see "section 4" of this site for the production notice that this
update pertains to and/or contact Mr. Newman via the information below.



UPDATE:  Since sufficient pre-orders to enable production to be
available
by June 1999 were not yet received, then those individuals who have
pre-ordered may continue their pre-order as a reserve deposit for
delivery
of a production unit or they may contact Joseph Newman and have their
deposit refunded.  In either case, please contact Joseph Newman directly
at: (480) 657-3722.

              THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN
               11445 East Via Linda, Suite 2416
                 Scottsdale, Arizona 85259

                    www.josephnewman.com
===========================================================================

It seems not many people have paid the motor in advance.

With the new announced under 100 Watts Solar panel demo,
hios technology will probably not go over 1 KWatts in this year...

10 KWatts to power a home is an illusion with this
type of motor construction.

Newman should have continued to sell his book or
his videos but not announce a motor,
that he is not able to build himself !

He now has lost all his people who trusted
in him.
Just my point of view.

Regards, Stefan.

--
Hartmann Multimedia Service, 
Dipl. In. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  info@ccard.net
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Jul 13 16:56:53 1999
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On Mon, 12 Jul 1999, Jerry W. Decker wrote:

> Hi Bill et al!
> 
> You remain at master at ASCII art..<g>.....but I still think the
> transmission of energy through the earth would evoke havoc and
> destruction of the electronics our society is currently so reliant on.

Yeah, that's the OTHER big mistake, but I didn't get into that because the
article was too long as it is.

The leukemia hazard from power lines and radio towers is small compared to
what it would be if Wireless Energy was in use.  We can replace our
household wiring with coaxial cables if we have to.  But what if
civilization was built around Tesla's system, and then we find that it
causes cancer?  Then Edison would be the underdog hero because of his
benign DC cables, and Tesla would be the Great Satan. 

:)



((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Jul 13 17:28:20 1999
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On Sat, 10 Jul 1999, Harvey Norris wrote:

> >> Great synopsis Bill Beaty! Two days ago you could have wrote
> this for Teslas birthday momento. I have never seen a step down
> tesla transformer or perhaps isolation transformer as you imagine.


I think Tesla's version of this was simpler: put light bulbs series
with the ground wire of a coil, then put it near a driven coil.  Same idea
as fig. 1 in the article, only the other transformer is missing on the
"receive" end, and the resistor is placed in series with the long coil at 
the position where I show the "receive" transformer.

I do recall seeing the "backwards, stepdown" tesla coil setup in some
Tesla patent. It is basically similar to conventional AC transmission: 
first step up the voltage, then use a very thin wire as a transmission
line (hi V, low amps), then step it back down again at the other end.  If
the voltage is high enough, we can use a high-resistance wire to connect
the two transformers together, maybe even use a stream of ions in the air. 


>      This then makes for skepticism. A few things about tesla coils
> are often assumed but always do not work.
>      Years ago, if I am not mistaken in my calculations, I built and
> concieved of the following experiment. A 1500 ft coil secondary
> can be built in entirely different geometry and yet contain the same
> inductance  by wheelers formula. In fact the conventional tesla
> secondary that has a 2/3 height vs diameter ratio actually should
> have a coil that appears as a relatively distant ring containing the
> same length of wire; also most importantly the the same spacing
> between wires to duplicate internal capacitive effects within
> approximation.

A coil 1500 ft across?  Or is that the length of the wire used?  In
conventional radio designs, the resonant frequency of a coil is NOT
related to the speed of light along the wire in the coil, although many TC
builders seem to assume that it is.  The energy can leap from turn to
turn.  The EM fields around the coil, and hence the coil shape, #turns,
etc., determines the resonant frequency. It's certainly far easier to
measure the true resonant frequency of a Tesla secondary than it is to
calculate it.


>       What this experiment involved was the inverse of the Colorado
> Springs example where a large ring like primary and secondary were
> used to energize interior coils that resonated with harmonics.

>        The construction difficulties of this outside project were numerous.
> The finished job was quite magnificent but when this 1500 ft ring
> was attempted an interaction with the supposed identical 1500 ft
> 20 diameter tesla coil of equal mathematically predicted inductance
> on the outside produced virtually no effect!

But the resonant frequency depends on inductance and capacitance, not on
wire length.  Without going through a big nasty calculation, or without
actually measuring the resonant freq of each coil, I don't see how it
would be easy to completely change the shape of the coil, yet keep the
resonance the same.

>       At those times I had not perused Nicola Tesla's  Colorado
> Springs Notes which of course sometimes takes a detective
> to decipher. However on Sept 19, 1899 Tesla makes the entry that
> his specific isolated ground magnifier system works best when
> the extra coil functions at 3/4 wavelength, with regard to the
> input. Note that I have added words here as an interpretation:
> However it seems to tell me that this third ratio becomes very
> important in consideration of interacting magnetic fields in space.

Was that 3/4 wavelength of WIRE LENGTH, or 3/4 wavelengths worth of coil
height?  

When connected to a 1/4-wave coil, a 3/4-wave coil gives 1 wavelength
total, so maybe this is why he called the 3/4 "obvious".  But even then it
doesn't make sense.  A Tesla coil which has ground on one end and high
voltage on the other end is a 1/4-wave system, not a 1-wavelength system. 
The lowest resonance of a grounded vertical tower is at the 1/4-wave
frequency.  But this is modern radio theory.  If Tesla assumed that a
grounded vertical coil has a FUNDAMENTAL frequency, then it would make
sense to divide that up into a 1/4x and a 3/4x section to create the
Magnifier.  If today we say that the fundamental frequency is a 1/4-wave
resonance, then our statement has little to do with the language Tesla was
using way back then.  In modern terms, the Magnifier would have a
1/16-wave "secondary" and a 3/16-wave "extra coil", and 1/16 plus 3/16
equals 1/4-wave for the entire system.


>        If  a coil induces a current on another coil, we logically assume
> by induction  and Lenz Law considerations that  the polarity of the
> assumed induction effects creates a magnetic field in opposition
> to the magnetic field that caused it, as per lenz law. However
> in the interaction of a quarter wavelength exciter interacting in space
> with another quarter wavelength wire, this assumed effect is abscent
> according to my observations. It is because that a 3/4 wavelength
> wire in reaction to a 1/4 wavelength exciter is most effective  that 
> Tesla  notes specifically on this date it is for OBVIOUS reasons.
>        Obvious to who? Maybe not to the rest of the world. Specifically
> perhaps Bill Beatys speculation concerning a one ended wire reaction
> acting a step down or isolation transformation on high frequency effects
> that may have these special interaction rules not contemplated because
> the author still to this day has not been understood.
>       In that state of confusion that exists I am dubious concerning any
> pronounced statements concerning "Teslas Big Mistake"

If Tesla was exploring some parts of physics which are unknown to
conventional scientists (scalar stuff, etc.), then whatever I say about
his invention is bound to be wrong.  I'm assuming that nobody back then
could understand Tesla's stuff even though it operated by conventional EM
laws.  Today we have the benefit of hindsight, and benefit of experience
with things like microwave waveguides and G-lines.  If somebody started
playing with G-lines in 1900, they would be regarded as a crackpot, since
everyone knows you need a complete circuit to send electrical energy to a
load.  MAYBE Tesla's stuff is explainable by G-line concepts and
conventional EM, but if it is not, then it is Bill Beaty who is making the
"big mistake" here, not Tesla!



((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Jul 13 18:22:10 1999
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Message-ID: <001b01becd97$468f3a20$d1a645d1@nimmachine>
From: "Psy-Kosh" <joeyk19@idt.net>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.990713164720.21461D-100000@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Tesla's Big Mistake
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:21:59 -0400
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    But wait, Tesla was constantly subjecting himself to all these fields.
Why didn't he get cancer? He did live to be eighty something, didn't he?
Methinks that maybe the frequency of the energy has an effect on whether or
not you get cancer from it.

Psy-Kosh
DC2.!(scientist)/?(?(H)) r++/r+++! Gm a- s++ u-.5 (Carestaff member)

"The scientist who would rather refute than comprehend demonstrates he has
chosen the wrong calling." -The Forever Machine
------------------------------------------------>
> The leukemia hazard from power lines and radio towers is small compared to
> what it would be if Wireless Energy was in use.  We can replace our
> household wiring with coaxial cables if we have to.  But what if
> civilization was built around Tesla's system, and then we find that it
> causes cancer?  Then Edison would be the underdog hero because of his
> benign DC cables, and Tesla would be the Great Satan.
>
> :)
>


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Jul 13 20:18:07 1999
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Subject: Re: Tesla's Big Mistake
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Maybe he would have lived past 100 if he was allowed to work with his coils
into old age. Who knows(?)-- the fast rise time multiple harmonics from his
spark gap coils might even be beneficial.

Colin Quinney

Psy-Kosh wrote:
>    But wait, Tesla was constantly subjecting himself to all these fields.
>Why didn't he get cancer? He did live to be eighty something, didn't he?
>Methinks that maybe the frequency of the energy has an effect on whether or
>not you get cancer from it.
>
>Psy-Kosh
>DC2.!(scientist)/?(?(H)) r++/r+++! Gm a- s++ u-.5 (Carestaff member)
>
>"The scientist who would rather refute than comprehend demonstrates he has
>chosen the wrong calling." -The Forever Machine
>------------------------------------------------>
Bill Beaty Wrote:
>> The leukemia hazard from power lines and radio towers is small compared to
>> what it would be if Wireless Energy was in use.  We can replace our
>> household wiring with coaxial cables if we have to.  But what if
>> civilization was built around Tesla's system, and then we find that it
>> causes cancer?  Then Edison would be the underdog hero because of his
>> benign DC cables, and Tesla would be the Great Satan.
>>
>> :)

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Jul 13 23:12:21 1999
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From: "Harvey Norris" <tesla4@excite.com>
To: "William Beaty" <billb@eskimo.com>, freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Tesla's Big Mistake
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On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:27:52 -0700 (PDT), William Beaty wrote:

> On Sat, 10 Jul 1999, Harvey Norris wrote:
> 
> > >> Great synopsis Bill Beaty! Two days ago you could have wrote
> > this for Teslas birthday momento. I have never seen a step down
> > tesla transformer or perhaps isolation transformer as you imagine.
> 
> 
> I think Tesla's version of this was simpler: put light bulbs series
> with the ground wire of a coil, then put it near a driven coil.  Same
idea
> as fig. 1 in the article, only the other transformer is missing on the
> "receive" end, and the resistor is placed in series with the long coil at

> the position where I show the "receive" transformer.
> 
> I do recall seeing the "backwards, stepdown" tesla coil setup in some
> Tesla patent. It is basically similar to conventional AC transmission: 
> first step up the voltage, then use a very thin wire as a transmission
> line (hi V, low amps), then step it back down again at the other end.  If
> the voltage is high enough, we can use a high-resistance wire to connect
> the two transformers together, maybe even use a stream of ions in the air.

> 
> > Yes I've seen this patent description myself also. Tesla was in a
position
in that time to recieve many patents,however his one ended capacity system
was maybe taken for granted and not pursued.  The greatest work in this
regard
exists of course concerning Teslas conception concerning the earth itself as
an
end of this  capacity and how these interchanges can take place.
    In my experiments I found that it is the high frequency conduction
itself 
between a ground pole and an instrument that fluctuates between
conductivity
and nonconductivity such that a higher frequency shows its conductive
relation
to ground according to the prescribed 8 - 30  hypothesized low hz range.
    Accordingly a neon bulb connected between a pole driven in the earth
can be lit according to the pulse rate  when the remaining side is
connected
to the kind of high frquency systems I was experimenting with. This is an
earth
driven electrical reaction that experimentally shows the conduction of the
earth
to high frequency at the disposition it has at the moment of testing.
> >      This then makes for skepticism. A few things about tesla coils
> > are often assumed but always do not work.
> >      Years ago, if I am not mistaken in my calculations, I built and
> > concieved of the following experiment. A 1500 ft coil secondary
> > can be built in entirely different geometry and yet contain the same
> > inductance  by wheelers formula. In fact the conventional tesla
> > secondary that has a 2/3 height vs diameter ratio actually should
> > have a coil that appears as a relatively distant ring containing the
> > same length of wire; also most importantly the the same spacing
> > between wires to duplicate internal capacitive effects within
> > approximation.
> 
> A coil 1500 ft across?  Or is that the length of the wire used?  In
> conventional radio designs, the resonant frequency of a coil is NOT
> related to the speed of light along the wire in the coil, although many
TC
> builders seem to assume that it is.  The energy can leap from turn to
> turn.  The EM fields around the coil, and hence the coil shape, #turns,
> etc., determines the resonant frequency. It's certainly far easier to
> measure the true resonant frequency of a Tesla secondary than it is to
> calculate it.
I understand that internal capacitance is like a mathematical demon that
has been descibed by Medhurst et al and your observance is reckoned;
but what I meant to imply was that everything is given by the length of
wire. The same 1500 ft of wire could be spaced 6 turns/ inch on a 20 
inch diameter coil that would produce the standard 2/3 ht of coil vs width.
However that same length of wire could be used in a geometry where
it had 6 times the diameter, and 6 times the spacing between wires and
still approximate the same inductance by wheelers formula.
     Having noticed a mistake in my mathematics the second assumption
that I carried might not be valid but to repeat it was that a coil itself of
the
 same length of wire, the SAME spacing between wires itself yields TWO
mathematical solutions and not ONE given the height and width parameters
of a coil. 

> >       What this experiment involved was the inverse of the Colorado
> > Springs example where a large ring like primary and secondary were
> > used to energize interior coils that resonated with harmonics.
> 
> >        The construction difficulties of this outside project were
numerous.
> > The finished job was quite magnificent but when this 1500 ft ring
> > was attempted an interaction with the supposed identical 1500 ft
> > 20 in diameter tesla coil of equal mathematically predicted inductance
> > on the outside produced virtually no effect!
> 
> But the resonant frequency depends on inductance and capacitance, not on
> wire length.  Without going through a big nasty calculation, or without
> actually measuring the resonant freq of each coil, I don't see how it
> would be easy to completely change the shape of the coil, yet keep the
> resonance the same.
> >There is a confusion regarding the subject of "internal capacitance
between
windings." As you noted the shape of the coil may have more to do than what
a formula gives, and a formula may be inaccurate.
> >       At those times I had not perused Nicola Tesla's  Colorado
> > Springs Notes which of course sometimes takes a detective
> > to decipher. However on Sept 19, 1899 Tesla makes the entry that
> > his specific isolated ground magnifier system works best when
> > the extra coil functions at 3/4 wavelength, with regard to the
> > input. Note that I have added words here as an interpretation:
> > However it seems to tell me that this third ratio becomes very
> > important in consideration of interacting magnetic fields in space.
> 
> Was that 3/4 wavelength of WIRE LENGTH, or 3/4 wavelengths worth of coil
> height?  
>>> The third harmonics occur on the interior coils which is why Tesla
called it
OBVIOUS. In order for the interior coils to properly respond they should be
3 times
the length of wire or 3/4 wavelength. A third harmonic produces the next
progression
that puts a field in accordance with lenz law that produces the magnetic
field 
in opposition. This of course is exclusively a SPATIAL reaction due to
inductive relations.

> When connected to a 1/4-wave coil, a 3/4-wave coil gives 1 wavelength
> total, so maybe this is why he called the 3/4 "obvious".  But even then
it
> doesn't make sense.  A Tesla coil which has ground on one end and high
> voltage on the other end is a 1/4-wave system, not a 1-wavelength system.

You are totally right: it doesnt make sense. That is because the SPATIAL
CASE differs from  THE WIRE CASE!
> The lowest resonance of a grounded vertical tower is at the 1/4-wave
> frequency.  But this is modern radio theory.  If Tesla assumed that a
> grounded vertical coil has a FUNDAMENTAL frequency, then it would make
> sense to divide that up into a 1/4x and a 3/4x section to create the
> Magnifier.  If today we say that the fundamental frequency is a 1/4-wave
> resonance, then our statement has little to do with the language Tesla
was
> using way back then.  In modern terms, the Magnifier would have a
> 1/16-wave "secondary" and a 3/16-wave "extra coil", and 1/16 plus 3/16
> equals 1/4-wave for the entire system.
> 
> 
> >        If  a coil induces a current on another coil, we logically
assume
> > by induction  and Lenz Law considerations that  the polarity of the
> > assumed induction effects creates a magnetic field in opposition
> > to the magnetic field that caused it, as per lenz law. However
> > in the interaction of a quarter wavelength exciter interacting in space
> > with another quarter wavelength wire, this assumed effect is abscent
> > according to my observations. It is because that a 3/4 wavelength
> > wire in reaction to a 1/4 wavelength exciter is most effective  that 
> > Tesla  notes specifically on this date it is for OBVIOUS reasons.
> >        Obvious to who? Maybe not to the rest of the world. Specifically
> > perhaps Bill Beatys speculation concerning a one ended wire reaction
> > acting a step down or isolation transformation on high frequency
effects
> > that may have these special interaction rules not contemplated because
> > the author still to this day has not been understood.
> >       In that state of confusion that exists I am dubious concerning
any
> > pronounced statements concerning "Teslas Big Mistake"
> 
> If Tesla was exploring some parts of physics which are unknown to
> conventional scientists (scalar stuff, etc.), then whatever I say about
> his invention is bound to be wrong.  I'm assuming that nobody back then
> could understand Tesla's stuff even though it operated by conventional EM
> laws.  Today we have the benefit of hindsight, and benefit of experience
> with things like microwave waveguides and G-lines.  If somebody started
> playing with G-lines in 1900, they would be regarded as a crackpot, since
> everyone knows you need a complete circuit to send electrical energy to a
> load.  MAYBE Tesla's stuff is explainable by G-line concepts and
> conventional EM, but if it is not, then it is Bill Beaty who is making
the
> "big mistake" here, not Tesla!
>>>bravo BILL BEATY; JUST THINK YOU COULD BE RIGHT!   HDN
> 
> ((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) )
)))))))))))))))))))))
> William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST
website
> billb@eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
> EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird
science
> Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L
webhead-L
> 
> 





_______________________________________________________
Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 14 01:08:51 1999
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From: "Harvey Norris" <tesla4@excite.com>
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        freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Tesla's Big Mistake
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Concerning the single wire theory being promoted the following
facts are relevant;
     1) The resonant value of capacitance used in the experiments
I used was 0.12 microfarad.
      2) This was used in conjunction  with large 56 henry air coil
resonating at 60 hz power supply.
      3) According to defined one ended capacity prediction
this small capacitive value would be the size of a globe of 5
miles radius! 
       4) Yet a post driven into the ground can convey more
effect and reaction than when the systems are operated
against themselves and the differences of potential noted.
      5)  A lot of people always say energy goes to ground;
but ground must be bipolar according to definition. It is
entirely realistic to suppose  that one grounded high frequency
system amplified by its mere connection to ground could not
further be amplified by another station acting in a antinodal 
position in reverse application.
       6) In synopsis how can anyone stand on teslas prodigy
and say here is what he would have done. Every mad scientists
hero.
        7) In the context of widely separated grounds I believe that
this effect will be proven  HDN




_______________________________________________________
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 14 11:09:32 1999
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All,
Penny still not really dropped about the coil. I'm new to this. Regarding
I think Psy-Kosh's low em illnesses, I think Tesla did sucomb to some very
strange illness. 

I think the future is local power generation distributed as dc. I keep
hearing stories about fields as low as 1mG causing cancers and birth
defects. As usual, vested interests bury it. 
Remi.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 14 15:59:07 1999
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From: RoConroy@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:57:51 EDT
Subject: Re: Tesla's Big Mistake
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In a message dated 7/14/99 1:08:59 PM Central Daylight Time, 
R.O.Cornwall@city.ac.uk writes:

<< Penny still not really dropped about the coil. I'm new to this. Regarding
 I think Psy-Kosh's low em illnesses, I think Tesla did succumb to some very
 strange illness.  >>

         The theory I heard was that after providing our allies at the time, 
the Germans, with a newly designed turbine powered Navy, some people had our 
dress wearing FBI director poison Tesla.   Some of Tesla's designs caused 
some of the powers that be, to be uncomfortable.  Also, Morgan who had the 
copper commodities covered, and who held a chit from the U.S. government for 
keeping them financially afloat, lost a lot of money when D.C. lost out to 
A.C.  After financially burying Tesla, I am sure he wouldn't have objected to 
his demise.  
      Bob
      

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 14 19:44:30 1999
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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 21:54:38 -0600
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From: josephnewman@earthlink.net (Evan Soule)
Subject: NEWMAN ENERGY MACHINE DEMONSTRATION!
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 *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *

            THE ENERGY MACHINE OF JOSEPH NEWMAN
             11445 East Via Linda, Suite 2416
                 Scottsdale, Arizona 85259
                      (480) 657-3722
                 josephnewman@earthlink.net
                   www.josephnewman.com


           FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE (July 14, 1999)

           NEWMAN ENERGY MACHINE DEMONSTRATION!
           NEWMAN ENERGY MACHINE DEMONSTRATION!
           NEWMAN ENERGY MACHINE DEMONSTRATION!

                   Date: July 25, 1999
                   Time: 11:00am
                  Place: SUMNER SUITES

          1413 W. Rio Salado Pkwy. Tempe AZ 85281

           For reservations call: (800) 74-SUITE
        www.summersuites.com - near Phoenix Airport
               FREE 24 HOUR AIRPORT SHUTTLE
           $59 p/night for Suites - summer rates
         (indicate for Newman Energy demonstration)

                        DIRECTIONS:
>From airport, East on Route 202, Exit Priest Drive, 1/2 mi.
South across  Sali River  to  Rio Salado  Pkwy.,  From I-10
Westbound, Exit 52nd St. N. to Rio Salado.

 *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *

The demonstration  that will be  presented on July 25, 1999
is SO simple and  straight-forward  that it is analogous to
"having a five-pound  weight placed  in your right hand and
a 50-pound weight  placed in your left hand and then asking
you which weight is heaviest!"

The performance of my Newman Motor will be compared to that
of a conventional motor. BOTH motors will be connected ONLY
to SOLAR PANELS! There will be NO batteries used!

This demonstration employing solar panels will conclusively
prove that the conventional  electric  motors which operate
your washers, dryers, water pumps, freezers, refrigerators,
air  conditioners,  heat  pumps,  vehicles,  homes,  farms,
factories,  and  businesses  are  ALL  robbing you and your
loved ones!

A  sincere  and  thoughtful  physicist  recently  tested my
technology  and  found  that  it  works as stated.  When he
realized that people  were not supporting my  revolutionary
technology  he  specifically  stated  that  "it was a crime
against  humanity."      [This  physicist  works  with  the
Department of Energy of a major foreign country.]

The solar panel  demonstration conclusively proves that the
Newman  Energy  Machine  works  and that "THE FUTURE OF THE
HUMAN RACE MAY BE DRAMATICALLY UPLIFTED BY THE  LARGE-SCALE
COMMERCIAL  DEVELOPMENT  OF  THIS  INVENTION.  IT IS INDEED
PAINFUL TO SEE IT LYING DORMANT." [Quotation from Dr. Roger
Hastings, Senior Physicist with Unisys]

To  those  truly  curious  and sincere individuals - I look
forward to seeing you in Phoenix.  Together, the Human Race
WINS!

Joseph Westley Newman


                 www.josephnewman.com

       For more information, call (480) 657-3722

 *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *

   "In speaking of the Energy of the field, I wish to
    be understood LITERALLY.   All energy is the same
    as _mechanical energy_,  whether it exists in the
    form of motion  or in that  of elasticity,  or in
    any other form.   The  energy in  electromagnetic
    phenomena is _mechanical_ energy."
                              --- JAMES CLERK MAXWELL


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 14 20:35:20 1999
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Keith Nagel <knagel@cnct.com>
Subject: Re: NEWMAN ENERGY MACHINE DEMONSTRATION!
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Wow...

You mean you can run a motor from energy extracted from the
sun's rays? That's incredible, new to all of us here I'm sure.

Now, where do I send the check???

K.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 14 21:46:31 1999
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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:43:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: Zack Widup <w9sz@prairienet.org>
Subject: Re: Tesla's Big Mistake
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 RoConroy@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 7/14/99 1:08:59 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> R.O.Cornwall@city.ac.uk writes:
> 
> << Penny still not really dropped about the coil. I'm new to this. Regarding
>  I think Psy-Kosh's low em illnesses, I think Tesla did succumb to some very
>  strange illness.  >>
> 
>          The theory I heard was that after providing our allies at the time, 
> the Germans, with a newly designed turbine powered Navy, some people had our 
> dress wearing FBI director poison Tesla.   Some of Tesla's designs caused 
> some of the powers that be, to be uncomfortable.  Also, Morgan who had the 
> copper commodities covered, and who held a chit from the U.S. government for 
> keeping them financially afloat, lost a lot of money when D.C. lost out to 
> A.C.  After financially burying Tesla, I am sure he wouldn't have objected to 
> his demise.  
>       Bob
>       
> 

I don't know if I dreamt or hallucinated this story, or if I actually 
heard or read it, but somewhere in the dim past I heard that Tesla had 
become fond of pigeons during the last few years of his life and let them 
into his hotel room to live (much to the consternation of the management.)  
One pigeon he was particularly fond of sat on his phone.

As the story went, he stated once "When that pigeon dies, I will die".  
On the day the pigeon died, he also died, almost as if he willed himself 
to die then.

Has anyone else heard this story?

Zack


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From: "Psy-Kosh" <joeyk19@idt.net>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.3.89.9907142315.A22950-0100000@bluestem>
Subject: Re: Tesla's Big Mistake
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 00:53:22 -0400
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    I have heard that Tesla spent a lot of time with pigeons, but I never
heard the link with his death.

Psy-Kosh
DC2.!(scientist)/?(?(H)) r++/r+++! Gm a- s++ u-.5 (Carestaff member)

"The scientist who would rather refute than comprehend demonstrates he has
chosen the wrong calling." -The Forever Machine
------------------------------------------------
> As the story went, he stated once "When that pigeon dies, I will die".
> On the day the pigeon died, he also died, almost as if he willed himself
> to die then.
>
> Has anyone else heard this story?
>
> Zack
>


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 15 01:14:41 1999
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From: Cornwall RO <R.O.Cornwall@city.ac.uk>
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Tesla's Big Mistake
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Bob,
Is there a factual biography of Tesla's life and inventions? No
storytelling but pure fact.
Remi.
On Wed, 14 Jul 1999 RoConroy@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 7/14/99 1:08:59 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> R.O.Cornwall@city.ac.uk writes:
> 
> << Penny still not really dropped about the coil. I'm new to this. Regarding
>  I think Psy-Kosh's low em illnesses, I think Tesla did succumb to some very
>  strange illness.  >>
> 
>          The theory I heard was that after providing our allies at the time, 
> the Germans, with a newly designed turbine powered Navy, some people had our 
> dress wearing FBI director poison Tesla.   Some of Tesla's designs caused 
> some of the powers that be, to be uncomfortable.  Also, Morgan who had the 
> copper commodities covered, and who held a chit from the U.S. government for 
> keeping them financially afloat, lost a lot of money when D.C. lost out to 
> A.C.  After financially burying Tesla, I am sure he wouldn't have objected to 
> his demise.  
>       Bob
>       
> 
> 


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 15 01:19:15 1999
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From: "David Callaghan" <DCallaghan@CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: NEWMAN ENERGY MACHINE DEMONSTRATION!
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:14:19 +0100
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Keith

I'll provide the answer before he does :=}}

"You are the devil incarnate.  You are a SCUMBAG MENTAL COWARD WITH A
MEDIOCRE MIND.  You will tremble at my feet as will the GREAT SCIENTISTS,
WHO WERE CRAP COMPARED TO ME.  AGAIN I WILL DEMONSTRATE THE POWER OF MY
MIGHTY MOTOR, WHICH A MERE HUMAN CANNOT STOP WITH HIS HAND WHEN CONNECTED TO
400 BATTERIES."

"I CHALLENGE YOU TO RING ME ON 555-12354 SO I CAN RANT AND RAVE FOR A LONG
TIME"

Sorry Evan - just saving you a job

Light hearted regards

David Callaghan


-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Nagel <knagel@cnct.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Thursday 15 July 1999 07:18
Subject: Re: NEWMAN ENERGY MACHINE DEMONSTRATION!


>Wow...
>
>You mean you can run a motor from energy extracted from the
>sun's rays? That's incredible, new to all of us here I'm sure.
>
>Now, where do I send the check???


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 15 01:25:54 1999
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William Beaty wrote:
> 
<SNIPS>
> Tesla was injecting currents into the Earth.  He was also setting up EM
> fields which rushed along the surface of the Earth.  <SNIPS>

 The greater part of my Tesla-related materials are packed away just
now, but I recall one re-creation of Tesla's work out at Colorado
Springs that was written up in the <now defunct> magazine of the
International Tesla Society, which had a couple of photos & a diagram
describing this ball of metal hung from a projection on the tower,
operating as a pendulum above a ground plate and further modifying the
current in the coil with its tunable/low-frequency oscillations. Anybody
else recall this work? It's supposedly derived from the lab notes made
at the tower.

-Khem Caigan
<frob@bway.net>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 15 06:43:56 1999
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From: "Peter Fred" <pbfred@choice.net>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: RE: Tesla's Big Mistake
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:33:54 -0400
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BECDDB.FE10D340
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Don't worry about Telsa's Big Mistake worry about your Big mistake.


And that is not recognizing the importance of this site
http://ww4.choice.net/~pbfred



Peter Fred


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Psy-Kosh [mailto:joeyk19@idt.net]
> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 12:53 AM
> To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
> Subject: Re: Tesla's Big Mistake
>
>
>     I have heard that Tesla spent a lot of time with pigeons, but I never
> heard the link with his death.
>
>


------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BECDDB.FE10D340
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial>Don't worry about Telsa's Big =
Mistake worry=20
about your&nbsp;Big mistake.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>And that is not =
recognizing the=20
importance of this site <A=20
href=3D"http://ww4.choice.net/~pbfred">http://ww4.choice.net/~pbfred</A> =

</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>Peter=20
Fred<BR><BR></DIV></FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT size=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: Psy-Kosh =
[<A=20
href=3D"mailto:joeyk19@idt.net" =
target=3D_blank>mailto:joeyk19@idt.net</A>]<BR>&gt;=20
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 12:53 AM<BR>&gt; To: =
freenrg-l@eskimo.com<BR>&gt;=20
Subject: Re: Tesla's Big =
Mistake<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
I have heard that Tesla spent a lot of time with pigeons, but I =
never<BR>&gt;=20
heard the link with his death.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;</FONT> </P></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BECDDB.FE10D340--

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 15 11:44:25 1999
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From: harti@harti.com (Stefan Hartmann)
Subject: Re: NEWMANs upcoming SOLAR PANEL TEST
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>>Lets finish this thread and not contaminate you upcoming presentation.
>>Perhaps your demonstration will satisfy these criticisms.
>>
>>I wish you and your supporters well.
>>
>>Regards
>>Chris Kuelzow
>
>
>
>Energy Machine Inventor Joseph Newman
>responds to Mr. Chris Kuelzow:
>
>You persist in deliberately distorting the truth about my life's work!  My
>fundamental book is well documented with credible scientific tests and
>endorsements of my life's work.

Exactly this is the problem !
Only a few scientists had the chance to measure it themself.

All your last public demos were not convincing,
that your new motor can stand up to the claimed
features like 10 KWatts home power supply !
You also never mentioned, how you would power
your motor for the home supply version,
nor was any data sheet ofthe motor yet published...
although you already took payments in advance for it.

It seems your new motor is just vapourware,
it runs only at 50 RPM and has a mechanical output of
just under 100 Watt.

When will we see the claimed 10 KWatts model ?

Did you already refund the people, who waited for the delivery
around June 99 and paid in advance ?

>Your comment is saying that the Power Brokers were justified in what they
>have done to me and to humanity.  You choose to LIE by your comments,

Sure, the Power brokers want to save their investments
into their old technology.

As we now have the Internet, your invention could
be much better presented and spread but you dont do it ,
you just want to make money by selling your book and videos.

Just publish all your data, that is easy !

>unlike the Physicist who recently came to Scottsdale and tested my Energy
>Machine Invention and repeated what more than 30 other credible scientific
>individuals have done.  You persist in lying by saying that they have NOT.
>Therefore, you persist in your "CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY".

How could the single individual benefit from
tests done by scientists, when you are not even able
to prove and show it yourself at public demos ???

Regards, Stefan.
--
Hartmann Multimedia Service
Dipl. Ing. Stefan Hartmann
WEB-Site: www.harti.com  www.ccard.net
email: harti@harti.com   info@ccard.net


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 15 12:18:47 1999
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From: "Robin Dye: The Credit Zone/VisionQuest Productions" <robindye@doitnow.com>
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Hi Everyone!

I was asked to mention 2 up-coming events for Steve Elswick (Exotic
Research) and J.W. McGinnis (The Int'l Tesla Institute).  If you know of
anyone who may be interested...please pass this along.  Thanks!   Robin...

The 1999 Int'l Tesla Festival
July 24th - 25th
Colorado Music Hall
(719) 632-4327

The Exotic Research Conference
July 22nd - 25th
Holiday Inn, Mesa, AZ
(520) 424-3581





From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 15 12:59:38 1999
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In message <Pine.GSO.3.95q.990715091120.2530A-100000@swindon>, Cornwall
RO <R.O.Cornwall@city.ac.uk> writes
>Bob,
>Is there a factual biography of Tesla's life and inventions? No
>storytelling but pure fact.
>Remi.

There was a biography published in 1996 called 'The life and times of
Nikola Tesla' by Marc J Seifer, but it's a useless piece of work. (IMO).

For those who want to look at it it's published by the 'Carol Publishing
Group'.  ISBN 1-55972-329-7
-- 
Chris Morriss

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 16 02:48:05 1999
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From: Cornwall RO <R.O.Cornwall@city.ac.uk>
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Freenrg,
Thanks for the book ref., why didn't you think it was much good?

I say Bill Beaty's analogies (and ascii art!) but I'm still not convinced
that there is longitudinal waves and not radiation through space as TEM.

It is that transistion between wire, coax, waveguide. Coax is interesting
because the energy really travels in the dielectric as TEM so what do the
wires do? Why not remove the coax's core wire? Wave guides are
comparitavely 'easy'.

ANother question, imagine I have a spherical ball of copper and in the
middle is a completely enclosed transmitter. Why don't my longitudinal
waves escape? The TEM waves stop at the skin depth (read Feynman once
again, brilliant, brilliant, can't stop recommending it! My favourite
possesion!) 
Remi.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 16 02:55:00 1999
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All,

Currently having immense trouble getting Mn2Sn or FeS2 to the form I
require. Have IEE (the British IEEE) on the case searching for suppliers
and a chemist friend of a friend. In meantime, I should get on with
electronics. I need some reasonably fast circuit because if the slew-rate
is tto slow, the flux isn't independent. I'll gain up several
semiconductor relays in parallel and it should slew at > 50Amp/us. 

I'll keep you posted.
Remi.          

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 16 03:19:16 1999
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Subject: Re: [free_energy] NEWMAN ENERGY MACHINE DEMONSTRATION!See Norm's 
         imbedded  remark
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: J.F.Grant@shu.ac.uk (John F. GRANT)
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freenrg-l@eskimo.com writes:
>From: Norm Biss <normpems@erie.net>
>
>Has anybody noticed how Joe Newman has villified Dr. Roger Hastings, but doesn't hesitate to use quotes of Dr. Hastings, when
>it suits his fancy.  Let me assist Mr. Newman's memory.  It seems to me that Dr. Hastings also stated that it would take
>between 10,000 and 20,000 volts of input voltage to power a generator for the average home.  This means that anyone who uses
>Solar Power to run their Newman Motor, would need between 600 and 1200 Solar panels to feed the motor.  I am not sure of the
>physical size of a Solar Panel, the weight, the cost, etc, but I am sure that someone on the list has this information.  
>
>It would probably be a good idea to invest in stock of companies who build solar panels. With the number of solar panels which
>will be sold just for the Newman Motor, you could make a fortune in the Market, and not really worry about what the
>"Power-Brokers" will charge you for their "Juice".
>
>And what about the people who live in the northern parts of the U.S.A. ?  No sun for months at a time, so no power, not to
>mention all that flat surface for 10 feet of snow to accumulate on. (What is the physical strength of one of these panels?) 
>
>And how about the people who live in Apartment complexes and Condominiums?  With a complex of 30 apartments, etc., you would
>have to have enough room to spread out 18,000 to 36,000 solar panels.  And how about Trailer Parks?  It becomes endlessly
>absurd.
>
>****************************************************************************************

Hi, I have reasonable experience in PV arrays, I'm not a sales person I'm a researcher in renewable energy at Sheffield Hallam
University - England, so I hope I not too biased in my opinions.  I'll try to quickly summarise the questions you have on PV
panels:

Firstly, the actual type of panel differs depending on where you're going to use it or what you're going to use it for.  e.g.
If it's going to be on a boat then water proofing is a priority if you're going to carry it around then lightness may be more
important.  However, for the purpose of this explanation I will assume we are talking about a static array for a domestic
setting.  The panels I'll use for the calculation are BP Solars' - BP585 it's a rugged panel with a good record of reliability
and efficiency (I have information on another 40 different types of panel, if you're interested I can fill you in on an
individual basis).

BP585 
Peak Output (1000 w/m sq.) - 85 Watts
Cost - #464.95 (pounds sterling) as a rule of thumb these prices can be dropped by anything from 10-50 per cent by bulk buying
for an array and the breakdown of the total system is roughly one third panel, one third inverter(s) and one third energy
storage (see example below).
Size - 1188 x 503 x 38 (mm)
Weight - 7.5 kg
Efficiency - approximately 18% (linked to temperature and insolation level) 

Strength - they are tested against hail and impacts generally by dropping a 2cm steel ball from 10m (30 feet).  BP Solar insure
their panels against weather damage for 10 years (this will probably be extended to 15 years in the near fututre as their
reliability is confirmed through older systems).

Snow/cold - As to having a build up of snow on the array the northern European countries (or arrays at high altitude) get
around this problem by setting the panels at a steep angle so the snow slips off naturally or can be cleared easier.  I have
talked to individuals who used a man portable panel (for a radio) while they were covered by a metre of snow!  There is also
the fact that as you lower the temperature the more efficient the panels become, panels have been recorded doing well over
their rated efficiency on very cold clear days.

Light level - you do NOT need sunshine to make a PV panel work, they work fine in low light environments (obviously with less
output) - in fact I recently heard a presentation where a measurable output was produced by an array during a full moon at
night!  Another point worthy of note is that the higher the latitude the more sensible it is to put the array at a steeper
angle because it maximises the solar gain in the Spring and the Fall when the sun is lower in the sky.  

size/output of the array -  On the question of the size/output of the array it all depends whether you want an array that will
produce you daily requirement every day (it therefore has to be sized at the worst possible day), on an average day or to
produce the total yearly consumption of the building throughout the year (this is usually argued as self sufficient?).

Apartment Blocks - I understand your concern about the high density living in many cities and the possibility of using a
relatively diffuse energy source like the sun.  However, it is possible to hang the panels vertically and use them as cladding,
displacing the cost of normal cladding the building and allowing it to produce energy as well (see below).  Although the
cladding of a building probably wouldn't cover the total energy consumption of the building. However, if the array was linked
to say the air conditioning system in the building there would be a natural link formed which would allow the AC to work harder
the sunnier it gets.  Making the whole process about as efficient as possible.

The example below is one I have studied and is still working fine (the costs to do a similar development would be at least 10%
cheaper - due to cost reductions in the technology!) 

(Assumed exchange of $1.67 US dollar = 1.00 pound sterling).

Total cost of adding a PVs system to a roof or facade of a building: $1,000-$3,000/m2 (for full system not just the panels)

Cost of normal building cladding:       $83-$2,000/m2  ($500/m2 is a generally accepted cost for a standard cladding type)

BP solar panel - BP585 = 135Wp/m2:     $704/m2 = 21m2 (2,876Wp) 
(Oxford Solar House prices built April 1995)

THE OXFORD (England) SOLAR HOUSE (built April 1995)

48 x BP585 panels 4kWp (approx. 30m2 array)
The building cost of the house was $334,000 (about $1,336/m2)

Cost of PV system 	= $41,750 (approx. $1,380/m2 with support from BP solar)

Solar panels		= $21,293 (approx. $704/m2)
Inverter			=   $5,845
Installation		=$14,195
Grid connection	=      $751

Avoided cost of building a roof on the building (assumed $500/m2)
Avoided cost	= area x cost
		=  30 x 500 
		= $15,000

Cost of PV system	= $41,750-15,000
			= $26,750

Over the first year the system generated 2,937kWh of electricity, of which 57% was exported and 43% used directly within the
house or to charge and electric car.  The house consumed 2,689kWh (it's VERY energy efficient - but it looks very similar to a
standard UK detached five bedroomed house).  Therefore it produced 250 units (kWh's) more than it consumed!!!!!  But since any
imported electricity is Paid for at 11.7cents and the electricity company only pay 4.7cents for electricity exported from the
array it only saves $217 per year (this of course means roughly an 123 year pay-back assuming the avoided cost I have used is
correct!!!!!)

With or without the Newman Motor PV's are a good idea, the general use of Photovoltaics is not ABSURD, just a part of the
solution. IF what he's saying is true it will be very interesting, but note the panels are only around a third of the cost,
it's a lot more complex than just having the energy source - assuming you want to connect to the grid, so you can export excess
power (make money) and import at high demand times  (so you don't need batteries).

Sorry I've gone on so much, but I hope the information is useful.

TTFN,
          John.F.
*************************************************
John F. Grant
Research Associate
Resources Research Unit
Science Park (Unit 12)
Sheffield Hallam University
City campus
Sheffield S1 1 WB

Tel : 0114 225 4034
Fax: 0114 225 4496
e-mail: j.f.grant@shu.ac.uk
*****************************************
"Never be angry when fools act like fools,
It's better when they identify themselves,
It removes so much uncertainty"
                                           Orson Scott Card

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 16 03:21:46 1999
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Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 11:16:43 +0100
Subject: Photovoltaics - more information
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freenrg-l@eskimo.com writes:
>From: Norm Biss <
normpems@erie.net
>>
>
>Has anybody noticed how Joe Newman has villified Dr. Roger Hastings, but doesn't hesitate to use quotes of Dr. Hastings, when
>it suits his fancy.  Let me assist Mr. Newman's memory.  It seems to me that Dr. Hastings also stated that it would take
>between 10,000 and 20,000 volts of input voltage to power a generator for the average home.  This means that anyone who uses
>Solar Power to run their Newman Motor, would need between 600 and 1200 Solar panels to feed the motor.  I am not sure of the
>physical size of a Solar Panel, the weight, the cost, etc, but I am sure that someone on the list has this information.  
>
>It would probably be a good idea to invest in stock of companies who build solar panels. With the number of solar panels which
>will be sold just for the Newman Motor, you could make a fortune in the Market, and not really worry about what the
>"Power-Brokers" will charge you for their "Juice".
>
>And what about the people who live in the northern parts of the U.S.A. ?  No sun for months at a time, so no power, not to
>mention all that flat surface for 10 feet of snow to accumulate on. (What is the physical strength of one of these panels?) 
>
>And how about the people who live in Apartment complexes and Condominiums?  With a complex of 30 apartments, etc., you would
>have to have enough room to spread out 18,000 to 36,000 solar panels.  And how about Trailer Parks?  It becomes endlessly
>absurd.
>
>****************************************************************************************

Hi, I have reasonable experience in PV arrays, I'm not a sales person I'm a researcher in renewable energy at Sheffield Hallam
University - England, so I hope I not too biased in my opinions.  I'll try to quickly summarise the questions you have on PV
panels:

Firstly, the actual type of panel differs depending on where you're going to use it or what you're going to use it for.  e.g.
If it's going to be on a boat then water proofing is a priority if you're going to carry it around then lightness may be more
important.  However, for the purpose of this explanation I will assume we are talking about a static array for a domestic
setting.  The panels I'll use for the calculation are BP Solars' - BP585 it's a rugged panel with a good record of reliability
and efficiency (I have information on another 40 different types of panel, if you're interested I can fill you in on an
individual basis).

BP585 
Peak Output (1000 w/m sq.) - 85 Watts
Cost - #464.95 (pounds sterling) as a rule of thumb these prices can be dropped by anything from 10-50 per cent by bulk buying
for an array and the breakdown of the total system is roughly one third panel, one third inverter(s) and one third energy
storage (see example below).
Size - 1188 x 503 x 38 (mm)
Weight - 7.5 kg
Efficiency - approximately 18% (linked to temperature and insolation level) 

Strength - they are tested against hail and impacts generally by dropping a 2cm steel ball from 10m (30 feet).  BP Solar insure
their panels against weather damage for 10 years (this will probably be extended to 15 years in the near fututre as their
reliability is confirmed through older systems).

Snow/cold - As to having a build up of snow on the array the northern European countries (or arrays at high altitude) get
around this problem by setting the panels at a steep angle so the snow slips off naturally or can be cleared easier.  I have
talked to individuals who used a man portable panel (for a radio) while they were covered by a metre of snow!  There is also
the fact that as you lower the temperature the more efficient the panels become, panels have been recorded doing well over
their rated efficiency on very cold clear days.

Light level - you do NOT need sunshine to make a PV panel work, they work fine in low light environments (obviously with less
output) - in fact I recently heard a presentation where a measurable output was produced by an array during a full moon at
night!  Another point worthy of note is that the higher the latitude the more sensible it is to put the array at a steeper
angle because it maximises the solar gain in the Spring and the Fall when the sun is lower in the sky.  

size/output of the array -  On the question of the size/output of the array it all depends whether you want an array that will
produce you daily requirement every day (it therefore has to be sized at the worst possible day), on an average day or to
produce the total yearly consumption of the building throughout the year (this is usually argued as self sufficient?).

Apartment Blocks - I understand your concern about the high density living in many cities and the possibility of using a
relatively diffuse energy source like the sun.  However, it is possible to hang the panels vertically and use them as cladding,
displacing the cost of normal cladding the building and allowing it to produce energy as well (see below).  Although the
cladding of a building probably wouldn't cover the total energy consumption of the building. However, if the array was linked
to say the air conditioning system in the building there would be a natural link formed which would allow the AC to work harder
the sunnier it gets.  Making the whole process about as efficient as possible.

The example below is one I have studied and is still working fine (the costs to do a similar development would be at least 10%
cheaper - due to cost reductions in the technology!) 

(Assumed exchange of $1.67 US dollar = 1.00 pound sterling).

Total cost of adding a PVs system to a roof or facade of a building: $1,000-$3,000/m2 (for full system not just the panels)

Cost of normal building cladding:       $83-$2,000/m2  ($500/m2 is a generally accepted cost for a standard cladding type)

BP solar panel - BP585 = 135Wp/m2:     $704/m2 = 21m2 (2,876Wp) 
(Oxford Solar House prices built April 1995)

THE OXFORD (England) SOLAR HOUSE (built April 1995)

48 x BP585 panels 4kWp (approx. 30m2 array)
The building cost of the house was $334,000 (about $1,336/m2)

Cost of PV system 	= $41,750 (approx. $1,380/m2 with support from BP solar)

Solar panels		= $21,293 (approx. $704/m2)
Inverter			=   $5,845
Installation		=$14,195
Grid connection	=      $751

Avoided cost of building a roof on the building (assumed $500/m2)
Avoided cost	= area x cost
		=  30 x 500 
		= $15,000

Cost of PV system	= $41,750-15,000
			= $26,750

Over the first year the system generated 2,937kWh of electricity, of which 57% was exported and 43% used directly within the
house or to charge and electric car.  The house consumed 2,689kWh (it's VERY energy efficient - but it looks very similar to a
standard UK detached five bedroomed house).  Therefore it produced 250 units (kWh's) more than it consumed!!!!!  But since any
imported electricity is Paid for at 11.7cents and the electricity company only pay 4.7cents for electricity exported from the
array it only saves $217 per year (this of course means roughly an 123 year pay-back assuming the avoided cost I have used is
correct!!!!!)

With or without the Newman Motor PV's are a good idea, the general use of Photovoltaics is not ABSURD, just a part of the
solution. IF what he's saying is true it will be very interesting, but note the panels are only around a third of the cost,
it's a lot more complex than just having the energy source - assuming you want to connect to the grid, so you can export excess
power (make money) and import at high demand times  (so you don't need batteries).

Sorry I've gone on so much, but I hope the information is useful.

TTFN,
          John.F.
*************************************************
John F. Grant
Research Associate
Resources Research Unit
Science Park (Unit 12)
Sheffield Hallam University
City campus
Sheffield S1 1 WB

Tel : 0114 225 4034
Fax: 0114 225 4496
e-mail: j.f.grant@shu.ac.uk
*****************************************
"Never be angry when fools act like fools,
It's better when they identify themselves,
It removes so much uncertainty"
                                           Orson Scott Card

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 16 03:46:48 1999
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Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:42:37 +0200
From: Ge Nefkens <gn@wisemansbrand.com>
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Dear Mr Newman

I cannot attend, like so many listmembers
geografically handicapped.

I hope to see a list of where (how) your motor
can be applied.


As you must have a lot of experience with solar cells,
can you mail me some adresses or links
of the best models to your opinion.

Sincerely yours

Gerard Nefkens
France
http://www.layo.com
(contains the "car runs on water patent)


> The demonstration  that will be  presented on July 25, 1999
> is SO simple and  straight-forward  that it is analogous to
> "having a five-pound  weight placed  in your right hand and
> a 50-pound weight  placed in your left hand and then asking
> you which weight is heaviest!"
> 
> The performance of my Newman Motor will be compared to that
> of a conventional motor. BOTH motors will be connected ONLY
> to SOLAR PANELS! There will be NO batteries used!
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 16 03:55:06 1999
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Subject: Re: [free_energy] NEWMAN ENERGY MACHINE DEMONSTRATION!See Norm's 
	         imbedded  remark
References: <fc.005b8ff1002f86b43b9aca00de433155.2f87c9@amazon.shu.ac.uk>
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Hi John
Why do you do this, . . .
You might say :

Why build boats.
Think of all these guys
living in Sahel and Nevada.
Gerard
France
John F. GRANT wrote:
> 

> >And what about the people who live in the northern parts of the U.S.A. ?  No sun for months at a time, so no power, not to
> >mention all that flat surface for 10 feet of snow to accumulate on. (What is the physical strength of one of these panels?)
> >
> >And how about the people who live in Apartment complexes and Condominiums?  With a complex of 30 apartments, etc., you would
> >have to have enough room to spread out 18,000 to 36,000 solar panels.  And how about Trailer Parks?  It becomes endlessly
> >absurd.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 16 10:15:38 1999
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Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:14:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Anton Rager <a_rager@yahoo.com>
Subject: Light Vortices
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Hello All,

Here's a cool article from Sciencedaily about Lasers,
photons, and vortices of light.  I'm not on Vortex
anymore, but they would probably really enjoy.  Could
someone forward this to Vo?


Laser light vortexes at extremely high outputs
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/07/990713074413.htm


Here's the full text for the HTTP challenged [with the
formatting really screwed up!]:

Whirlpools Of Light Offer Speedy Data
                 Transmission 

                 HAIFA, Israel, and NEW YORK, N.Y.
July 6, 1999 -- Two reseachers at
                 the Technion-Israel Institute of
Technology in Haifa, Israel, have discovered
                 that small lasers can produce complex
patterns of tiny optical vortices,
                 whirlpools of light less than ten
thousandth of an inch across. The finding,
                 which will be published in the July 9
Science, could be used as the basis of
                 new methods of high speed data
transmission and processing. 

                 The Technion team, Drs. Meir
Orenstein and Jacob Scheuer, used lasers
                 called VCSELs (vertical cavity
surface-emitting lasers), which produce laser
                 light over a surface some 20 microns
on a side (about a thousand of an inch).
                 These lasers are used routinely for
such applications as optical communication
                 over glass fibers and are normally
designed to produce a single smooth beam
                 of light. The Technion team, however,
modified the lasers by doubling their
                 size and increasing the current fed
into them by three to six-fold, which causes
                 the laser beam to break up and
organize itself into the complex patterns
                 observed. 

                 Like any laser, the VCSEL operates by
bouncing light back and forth
                 between mirrors in a material that
amplifies the light. But in the conditions used
                 in the experiment, the amount of
light produced changed how much the light is
                 amplified, in turn changing the
amount of light at any point. In this way the
                 material itself builds up patterns of
light and dark. 

                 "What we observed were regular arrays
of optical vortices" Dr. Orenstein
                 explains. 

                 An optical vortex is like a tornado
in air or the whirlpool formed around a
                 bathroom drain, except that it is
made of light. Light is an electro-magnetic
                 wave and in an optical vortex, the
direction of the wave motion rotates around
                 a central axis, like water around a
drain; the closer to the axis, that faster the
                 rotation. In an optical vortex,
unlike a fluid vortex, this velocity rises without
                 limit as the center is approached.
The Technion experiments showed that the
                 vortices spontaneously formed
patterns of figure-eights and arrays of three,
                 five and seven vortices as the
researchers increased the current to the tiny
                 laser. 

                 Previous experiments by other
researchers had produced such optical
                 vortices, but they had always
required much larger and more complicated
                 devices for their production, and had
not produced such complicated patterns.

                 "These are by far the most complex
and tiniest vortices that have been
                 produced spontaneously -- with any
input pattern on our part," Orenstein
                 explains. 

                 The vortices are extremely
interesting theoretically because vortex structure
                 appears so widely in nature -- in
gases, fluids, the magnetized gas called
                 plasmas and even in living things, as
in the helix of DNA. While Orenstein and
                 Scheuer believe they understand how
the vortices arise in the laser, it is still
                 not clear why this particular pattern
occurs rather than others. 

                 The miniature vortices may have
practical uses as well. When the optical
                 vortices leave the laser and are
transmitted through space or an optical fiber,
                 they always retain their vortex
structure and the direction in which they are
                 spinning. Such vortices can therefore
be used to transmit information at high
                 speed over long distances, thus
improving optical fiber communications. Other
                 more exotic applications include
using the vortices to trap individual atoms at
                 their center and immobilize them,
cooling them to very low temperatures. The
                 Technion work has shown that
producing and controlling such light whirlpools
                 may be far easier than anyone else
had thought. 

                 The Technion-Israel Institute of
Technology is the country's premier scientific
                 and technological center for applied
research and education. It commands a
                 worldwide reputation for its
pioneering work in communications, electronics,
                 computer science, biotechnology,
water-resource management, materials
                 engineering, aerospace and medicine,
among others. The majority of Israel's
                 engineers are Technion graduates, as
are most of the founders and managers
                 of its high-tech industries. The
Technion's 13,000 students and 700 faculty
                 study and work in its 19 faculties
and 30 research centers and institutes in
                 Haifa. 

                 ### 

                 The American Technion Society (ATS)
supports the Technion. Based in New
                 York City, it is the leading American
organization supporting higher education
                 in Israel. The ATS has raised $720
million since its inception in 1940, half of
                 that during the last seven years.
Technion societies are located in 24 countries
                 around the world. 




                 Note: This story has been adapted
from a news release issued by American Society For
                 Technion, Israel Institute Of
Technology for journalists and other members of the
                 public. If you wish to quote from any
part of this story, please credit American Society
                 For Technion, Israel Institute Of
Technology as the original source. You may also wish
                 to include the following link in any
citation: 
                      
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/07/990713074413.htm



===
Anton Rager
a_rager@yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 16 15:01:07 1999
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From: pgb@padrak.com (Patrick Bailey)
Subject: Bay Area UFO Expo Program Available:  Schedule on Websites
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The Official Program for the Bay Area UFO Expo is NOW AVAILABLE!

Sept. 4-5, 1999, San Mateo (near San Francisco airport), CA


--- ----- -------

Revised Schedule:

Minor time changes,
and Richard Hoagland has been added! (with 2 Workshops!)


The Main Speakers' Schedules and the Workshops Schedules can be seen now at:

http://www.padrak.com/baufoexpo/

--- ----- -------


Additional detailed information,
including the Free Lecture and the Workshop Titles and summaries,
speaker pictures, and advance ticket ordering information -

Can be found at the Expo's Official Website at:

http://www.hathorproductions.com


There is still room in the vendor and display area for individuals and
companies to advertize their books, videos, and products!  See the above
hathorproductions website for details!

Copies of the Official Expo Program can also be ordered through the above
hathorproductions website.

PB.


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 16 21:05:47 1999
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From: rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au (Robin van Spaandonk)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Thermo-electric conv.
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 04:04:50 GMT
Organization: Improving
Message-ID: <3792ffdb.535630524@mail-hub>
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On Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:54:21 +0100 (BST), Cornwall RO wrote:

>All,
>
>Currently having immense trouble getting Mn2Sn or FeS2 to the form I
>require. Have IEE (the British IEEE) on the case searching for suppliers
[snip]
Hi Remi,

I could be wrong but I think FeS2 is fool's gold, and is somewhat flaky
like mica (but less so). So it may be impossible to get in long thin
slivers, which is, I imagine, what you are looking for.


Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au>

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Yeah, you're correct,

I beleive somekind of ppt reaction in a magnetic field ought to allow
needles to form. Anyway, I should be able to do the lot with ferrofluids
and not care about Curie-points, as long as i have an independent flux...

My concerns about slew-rate: If the slew-rate is too long, the flux isn't
indpendent. You get this by convolving the 'impulse' response of the
core/sample with the current in the primary. Ideally if you can switch off
the current like a brick wall, then there is only the relaxation time for
the magnetism to drop - it is independent.

I have ferrofluid, I have electronic switches, I really should be getting
on with it and be more empirical rather than try to think of everything.
I'm too cautious.

Remi.

 On Sat, 17 Jul 1999, Robin van
Spaandonk wrote:

> I could be wrong but I think FeS2 is fool's gold, and is somewhat flaky
> like mica (but less so). So it may be impossible to get in long thin
> slivers, which is, I imagine, what you are looking for.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Robin van Spaandonk <rvanspaa@bigpond.net.au>
> 
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Jul 17 03:47:43 1999
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From: Cornwall RO <R.O.Cornwall@city.ac.uk>
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Subject: Tesla, longitdn. waves
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Freenrg,

I am really intrigued by long. waves but no one has answered my question
as to having a transimitter buried in a copper ball.

I think rigoruous analysis is necessary to see the transition between:
wire pair, coax, waveguide.

To me, the first and last are the easiest. Say we use coax fro VHF and
UHF, wavelengths 30m to 3cm. How da hell do they squeeze into a cable? The
wire pairs are doing something so its not correct to say that the energy
is travelling soley down the dielectric. I guess one's starting point is
the rigrous derivation of the 'telegraph eqns' and not just taking them
rote.

{Aside, this pisses me off, I make the mistake too

Meters (or is it metres - frenchified) Is it M or m

I hate it when people write S for seconds when it should be s. I have a
scope with the time-base in milli and micro seimens! 
}

I don't think the analogy with sound is correct. Here we have SHM about a
center. In a metal you have a plasma of free e-. But there again, if you
displace, you create an imbalanced charge distrb. and a restoring force.

I think my educator glossed over this in my undergrad years and we took a
little too much on trust. My intution is seeing a long copper line o/c at
the far end, pulse gen. at the near. Yes, it's like pinging a string BUT I
need to ground my pulse gen. - two wire. There again, what determines the
pulse's transit time, it doesn't go at c but maybe 2/3c. The distrubance
seems to travel in both space and the wire. The wire acts as a guide.

Totally handwavy, you've got to math this one. 
Remi.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Jul 17 23:57:56 1999
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From: MKSBoysal@aol.com
Message-ID: <bb017992.24c2d4a9@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 02:56:41 EDT
Subject: Another Gravity Motor
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<A 
HREF="http://home.talkcity.com/SweetheartLn/mercurian/Boysal%20gravity%20motor
.html">Boysal Gravity Motor
</A>
Please let me know if you have any question or comments on this Gravity 
Motor. It is just a drawing I bought the parts to build it, but haven't put 
together the machine yet.
Mehmet.>>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Jul 18 11:19:45 1999
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From: HLafonte@aol.com
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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 14:18:24 EDT
Subject: Site update building easy design!
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I am building at this time the PM motor/generator design shown on my site. I 
hope to have detailed drawings of all parts and data needed to build this 
proof of concept device on the site by midnight tonight central time, USA. If 
you do not understand the spin balance system, please go to the link I have 
on my site to fully understand the balance system. The balance system has 
been proven many times over the last 7 years. I will be using flexiable 
magnetic strips and radio shack magnets, and a wood form. It should be very 
easy to build. Email me if you have any questions, please.But first study the 
spin balance system at my link Iist on the site. 
<A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/hlafonte/index.html">LaFonte Research site 1
</A>  or  http://hometown.aol.com/hlafonte/index.html
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
If you have any trouble pulling up site please let me know!

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Jul 18 15:24:41 1999
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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 18:20:41 -0400
To: freenrg-L@eskimo.com
From: LR <LR@SoftHome.net>
Subject: David Hamel - new stuff!!
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Hi all !

New "stuff" from David Hamel.  Ok, I have not finished my homeworks, but you
can take a look (and "hear"...) right here:

http://altern.org/hamelconnection/

Bye!
Louis.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Jul 18 16:22:28 1999
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From: "Harvey Norris" <tesla4@excite.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Elfrad Group Response
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Recently I posted the concept of a binary resonant system to Elfrad 
for possible use by others to interface with ground current measurements.
However I didnt quite get that far as these critics can show.
Initially I made the diode analogy to explain the schematic and this
of course confuses people to the most utter degree...
     I have included this preclusion that has been posted before and the
gauged responses.

From: "Harvey Norris" <tesla4@excite.com>

On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:17:33 PDT, Harvey Norris wrote:

Most of us are aware how 4 diodes can be put together
in a diamond shape for
a full wave rectifier.Either opposite corner can be
inputed with AC and
pulsed DC is obtained from the remaining corners shown
as the path bisecting
the diamond with the load in the center. This is
exactly the same
configuration that the BRS takes only by replacing the
forward diodes with
coils of equal inductance and the reverse diodes with
equal capacitors. With
no load across the midpoints the circuit represents two
possible series
resonant branches,180 degrees out of phase,in parallel.
What makes it
possible is the correct frequency input to make it
resonate causing a
voltage rise going in opposite directions from a
neutral center; so that the
voltage rise as measured from the midpoints is twice
that of either side
alone. With a short placed across these midpoints the
circuit then acts as
one same possible parallel resonant circuit with the
midpoint path being
shared by both the inductive and capacitive currents
which both enter and
leave from opposite directions. These currents which
are themselves 180 out
of phase then become in phase which results in twice
the amperage passing
through the midpoint path as in the sides alone. Does
not this same thing
happen in the full wave rectifier? Twice the pulses of
amperage exist across
its load than on the diode paths themselves. I think
this analogy explains
things better. HDN

Lets look at some responses on ELFRAD list.
> Twice the pulses of amperage exist across
> its load than on the diode paths themselves. I think
this analogy explains
> things better. HDN
(I left the first anonymous)
Dear Sir, either you are spewing complete horse
feathers or you have a
distinct lack of skill at describing things.  You have
succeeded in
completely confounding me, and I haven't the vaguest
idea what you're
trying to describe and why you are trying to describe
it.  Sounds a lot
like an iffy sort of Cockraft-Walton voltage doubler to
me.  TTYL!

From: "Payne, Will E" <will.e.payne@lmco.com>

Harvey makes a valid observation in one sense.  The
currents he describes
are circulating reactive currents when the circuit is
switched from two
series resonators in parallel to two parallel
resonators in series.  The two
configurations are simple analogues, one doubles the
voltage, the other
doubles the current.  Dont let the rectifier talk
confuse the issue.

From: Rich Oliver <rco@lowell.edu>

I'm a bit confused about all of this, too.  It sounds
as though we are
taking the long way around the barn to make an
impedance transformer. 
One comment made me think that the goal is an increase
of power from
input to output.  Since it is all done with passive
components, though,
it is a safe bet that average power out will always be
less than average
power in.

The spark gap is an interesting touch and it might
provide a passive
means of frequency multiplication, at least at
frequencies low enough
for the gap to quench properly.  Perhaps it also has
some advantages for
driving a Tesla Coil but beyond that I don't see the
point.

On Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:35:09 -0400, Payne, Will E
wrote:

> From: "Payne, Will E" <will.e.payne@lmco.com>
> 
> 	Harvey claims I erred in my analysis of the BRS in
that his topology
> forms a figure "8" which creates a new current path
and somehow the
circuit
> behaves in a manner not predicted by classical
circuit theory.  
> 
> 	By mesh analysis we see the voltages adding and
cancelling and
> calculate the corresponding currents.  By node
analysis, we see the
currents
> adding and cancelling, and calculate the
corresponding voltages.  Either
> analysis yields the same solution, interesting, even
fascinating, but
> nothing beyond known AC circuit theory or
thermodynamics.  It may not be
> what is expected using simple resistance analogy, but
when the vectors
are
> properly accounted for I will stand by my original
analysis.  
> 
> 	btw Harvey I dont get the last part about:
> 
>      This ratio of impedance vs resistance was 760/1
on the 56 Henry
> BRS. This produced a frequency of 166,000 hz on the 9
mile coils using
> an arc gap at the midpoints functioning as the
switch.
> 
> 	What device are you describing, something you built
? Perhaps I
> missed the context.  These numbers dont hold up.....
according to known
> circuit theory.   If the Q, or X/R is 760, the DC
resistance is about 80
> kilohms, realistic for a nine mile coil of 56 H. 
But, a 56 H Inductor has
a
> reactance of 60 megohms at 166 kHz.  Which would be
resonated by a
capacitor
> of 0.015 pico Farad.  This sounds like the equivalent
circuit of a quartz
> crystal, not like physical L and C values for a nine
mile coil.  Although
a
> quartz crystal would normally have a much higher Q. 
Would you please
> explain the construction and how you measured the
values ?

Yes, I constructed it from two 56 Henry coils of
20,000 winds of
23 gauge wire @ 1000 ohms which by reference value of
23 gauge resistance
means those coils contain about 9 miles of wire. They
are about 5 in
innerdiameter
13 in high. The q of the coils at 60 hz is about 20 by
calculation to the
registered
impedance however in actual practice they are only 15.
Because of the 23
gauge
wire these coils have a large internal capacitance
which may be an
explanation
of the reduction of actual voltage rise that occurs at
15/1 instead opf
20/1.
The capacitors resonate at 60 hz,not 166,000 hz and use
the value of .12 Uf
if I am not mistaken.(Uf= microfarad)
     To avoid confusion it is better first to describe
a single coil case.
The impedance                                     of
the single coil is
20,000 ohms @ 60 hz. The q should be 20 as the ratio
between
these values, however as previously noted the voltage
rise shown by the
series
resonant case only yields 15/1 as regards voltage
comparison to input
voltage.
     Now when the impedance of the circuit is measured
with these same 60 hz.
resonant values in parallel a curious result shows
itself. The q then acts
as a value
of 10. Thus the impedance then becomes 200,000 ohms
although the actual 
measured amperage inside the circuit is that given by
20,000 ohms
condition
that then shows a 10/1 resonant amperage rise/ vs input
amperage.
      In the special BRS condition the measured
impedance becomes not half
of this value but twice; 400,000 ohms which means a lot
of confusion for
folks
because it becomes a special case of TWO tanks  that
schematically would 
seem to be in parallel: but in actuality shows that
they are acting as two
tanks
in series. This is why I stated that a mistake  of a
description was made by
your excellant observations W. Payne.
     The derived figure of 760/1 was arrived at by
actual  experimental
observation
and not the math. In the special BRS condition of 2
series resonant phases
with open switch condition repesents an ohmic condition
of  two  1000
ohm coils in parallel, or 500 ohms. The condition at
closed switch or when
the arc forms then becomes 400,000 ohms. The ratio
between 400,000/500
ohms is 800. Because the dramatic change of these
effective values
are present, this led to the justified speculation that
this kind of system
to produce a high frequency isa ideal for its SELF
QUENCHING ABILITY.
     Because the q values predicted by theory differ
quite a small bit in
actual reality, the derived 760/1 experimental reached
value is quite
within reason. If the coils were resonated by the
conventional historical 
technique used by tesla without this specially quenched
method the expected

result would be about 5000 hz  derived by quarter
wavelength
considerations based on the 9 mile wire. The fact that
166,000 hz is 
produced instead has enormous scientific ramifications
in that internal
oscillations
of electrons WITHIN the coil should be happening:
oscillations that occur
entirely within the coil without ever reaching the end
of the wire because
they do not have the TIME period to do so.  If this
actually does occur
it would imply a faster than light travel which I am
sure everyone agrees to
be impossible, but perhaps not ruled out as a
consideration.
       Hope I explained better.
       Sincere in the art; Harvey D Norris, tesla4@excite.com




_______________________________________________________
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Jul 18 16:47:08 1999
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From: "Harvey Norris" <tesla4@excite.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: ASCII Problems
Message-Id: <932341580.4770.380@excite.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:46:20 PDT
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I have had great problems in the past and continue 
to have problems with making a diagram on the 
keyboard and then posting it from the edit-copy function
of the computer to post it elsewhere. This was the case
when  I originally submitted the Binary Resonant Arc Gap
schematic to freenrg and it didnt come out right until the 
third attempt under (3rd diagram try) I still have not been
able to post this diagram to my message board because
of these problems. What gives and why does the 
whole problem get so complex? And what does ASCII
stand for anyway?

Computer illiterate in Ohio ... HDN
                                        




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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Jul 18 17:01:14 1999
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From: "Kyle R. Mcallister" <stk@sunherald.infi.net>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: ASCII Problems
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 18:56:48 -0500
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> And what does ASCII stand for anyway?

ASCII: America Standard Code for Information Interchange.

--Kyle

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Jul 18 17:31:48 1999
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Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 20:43:26 -0400
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
From: Keith Nagel <knagel@cnct.com>
Subject: Re: ASCII Problems
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Hi Harvey.

As to your ascii problems, you need to realize that different
fonts will have characters with different widths; using the
space bar to format characters will work fine so long as
everyone is using the same font as you. Well, really, if
we all spoke esparanto it would be easier too... So, do
your diagrams in courier, which is a fixed width font,
and specify it for viewing. No problem.

K.

PS: You seem to be beating the bush on your "binary resonant"
ideas; towards what end? I understand the basic circuit,
now where are you going with it?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Jul 18 20:05:59 1999
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From: dave.tingley@juno.com
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 22:39:23 -0400
Subject: Re: ASCII Problems
Message-ID: <19990718.225702.204.0.dave.tingley@juno.com>
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American Standard Code for Information interchange

The problem is caused by fonts. When you use a proportional font in you
word processor it adjusts the size of the blank spaces in order to pretty
up the document. The font used in your email is a fixed font that doesn't
adjust things for you. If you select a fixed font in your word processor
then it will stay in proportion when you paste it into the email.

Dave

On Sun, 18 Jul 1999 16:46:20 PDT "Harvey Norris" <tesla4@excite.com>
writes:
> I have had great problems in the past and continue 
> to have problems with making a diagram on the 
> keyboard and then posting it from the edit-copy function
> of the computer to post it elsewhere. This was the case
> when  I originally submitted the Binary Resonant Arc Gap
> schematic to freenrg and it didnt come out right until the 
> third attempt under (3rd diagram try) I still have not been
> able to post this diagram to my message board because
> of these problems. What gives and why does the 
> whole problem get so complex? And what does ASCII
> stand for anyway?
> 
> Computer illiterate in Ohio ... HDN
>                                         
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________________
> Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/
> 

================================================
dave.tingley@juno.com
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Ranch/3992/dt.html
While the people are virtuous, they cannot be subdued; but when they lose
their virtue they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first
external or internal invader.  Samuel Adams

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Jul 18 22:20:16 1999
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From: "Ray Bradshaw" <rmelton@clandjop.com>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: ASCII Problems
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 00:21:12 -0500
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I know there is a program which converts pictures to ASCII. You can
download it at http://www.softseek.com. Just browse around a bit. I would
get the ASCII done and save it to text file. Then post it on the net some
where. Hope this helps.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 19 00:02:03 1999
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From: "Timothy Flytcher" <flytch@hotmail.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Ok ...  Dumb question...
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 00:01:17 PDT
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with a full wave rectifier... what caps work best to eliminate (smooth out) 
60Hz????
I should remember this ... but can't and my note books are barred in storage 
right now as we are remodelling our house ... major stress!!!

Thank you,
Timothy...

>
>Most of us are aware how 4 diodes can be put together
>in a diamond shape for
>a full wave rectifier.Either opposite corner can be
>inputed with AC and
>pulsed DC is obtained from the remaining corners shown
>as the path bisecting
>the diamond with the load in the center.


_______________________________________________________________
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 19 02:33:16 1999
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From: "David Callaghan" <DCallaghan@CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk>
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Timothy

Ten microfarads per mA of output current is a good approximation for general
power supply requirements.  If you need a regulated output, use a voltage
regulator.

In theory the 'bigger' the cap better, but you must be careful not to exceed
the
rectifier diodes peak forward current.

Best regards

David Callaghan


-----Original Message-----
From: Timothy Flytcher <flytch@hotmail.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Date: Monday 19 July 1999 08:07
Subject: Ok ... Dumb question...


>with a full wave rectifier... what caps work best to eliminate (smooth out)
>60Hz????


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 19 08:21:11 1999
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To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
References: <4.1.19990718181857.0094cd90@pop.netaddress.usa.net>
Subject: Re: David Hamel - new stuff!!
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 10:16:32 -0500
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can't seem to pull up sound wave on pyramids
----- Original Message -----
From: LR <LR@SoftHome.net>
To: <freenrg-L@eskimo.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 1999 5:20 PM
Subject: David Hamel - new stuff!!


> Hi all !
>
> New "stuff" from David Hamel.  Ok, I have not finished my homeworks, but
you
> can take a look (and "hear"...) right here:
>
> http://altern.org/hamelconnection/
>
> Bye!
> Louis.
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 19 11:28:41 1999
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From: Boyd cantrell <Boytrell@proaxis.com>
Subject: ambient energy
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I would like to hear opinions on this.  The real meat of it starts about
2/3 of the way down at the three rows of asterisks.
I especially would like to hear ideas about how to accomplish that which I
ask in the last paragraph.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
THERMO-DYNE  MACHINE   NUMBER TWO
by Boyd Cantrell

This disclosure is of an apparatus that is intended to convert some of the
ambient temperature heat energy of the atmosphere into mechanical energy.
First off let me tell you that the books say that it can't be done.  Before
I show how it can be done I will first show you what the books say.  The
following is right out of the books.    
............................................................................
..........................
    " No one has ever devised a way of changing any of the completely
random motion of the molecules of a material medium in thermal equilibrium
into the coordinated motion that represents macroscopic mechanical energy,
in such a way that the only resulting effect is the cooling (decrease in
microscopic mechanical energy) of the material medium;  the second
principle of thermodynamics asserts that it is impossible to do so.
      The second principle of thermodynamics is an inference from
experience that embodies the above ideas, for example, that of the
nonutilizability of the heat of the oceans or the atmosphere.  From this
second principle a great many detailed conclusions can be drawn, all of
which are in agreement with experiment. This agreement gives us complete
confidence in the universal applicability of the principle."  
............................................................................
..........................
Okay thats right out of the books.  Note the words "assert, inference,
confidence and agreement with".  Now I will show that it is not only
possible to convert some of the ambient temperature heat energy into
macroscopic (visible) mechanical energy,  But that it was being done by an
apparatus over 50 years ago and no one bothered to change the books.  That
apparatus is the little novelty Drinking Bird which uses  R-11 as it's
working fluid and continuously dips down to take a drink of water.  The
water evaporates, creating a cooler reservoir causing the refrigerant
inside to condense. This bird is a cyclic device that works on ambient
temperature heat energy and I say that it gets around the second law of
thermodynamics.     

Now there are those who will say that it does not get around the second
law, that it creates it's own cooler reservoir and follows all of the laws
of physics.  Then I say to them HURRAH !  So lets forget about words,
interpretations of the book and get on with real world stuff.  Now I do not
propose building a giant drinking bird.  I just want to establish the fact
that the bird converts ambient temperature heat energy into mechanical
energy in an amount that is sufficient to overcome it's own frictional
losses and still work.  Now that the fact has been established, Let's think
about other ways! Such as the following!

I call my proposed apparatus a THERMO-DYNE,  from the greek words Heat and
Energy.  Now I want to point out that this apparatus ( like all others )
will have losses and keeping these losses to the very minimum is paramount.
 Thats why I have never tryed to build it.  It could be built by NASA or
some orginazation like that.  But before getting into losses I want to
explain the concept it'self. 

 Let's use an Air Conditioner to extract and consentrate the ambient
temperature heat of the atmosphere and add to it the heat from the work of
compression.  Now let's put that heat into a backwards Air conditioner  (
Heat engine ).  I called it a backwards Air conditioner because it operates
on the same kind of refrigerant as the forward Air conditioner.  Now in
reality the  Air conditioner can not really work backwards as an Engine
because it has no liquid  feed pump, so let's give it one and let's install
a drive shaft between the two units so that the engine side can power the
Air conditioner side.  For the sake of making a sketch let's put the Air
conditioner compressor on the left end of the shaft and the engine on the
right end.   

Please understand that there are two seperate refrigerant systems here.
The gas of the Air conditioner side does not go into the engine side.  But
it DOES transfer it's heat to the other side through a heat exchanger. 
Let's call that Heat exchanger ( B ) and position it above the two units in
the center of the page. 

I like to speak of energy expended as horsepower.  One horsepower ( which
must take place in one minute ) is equal to 42.416 BTU per minute.  Or one
horsepower for 60 minutes is equal to 2545 BTU per hour.  So when I say one
horsepower of heat you will know what I mean.                        
                 
Now the engine side powers the Air conditioner compressor which delivers
six  horsepower of heat for one horsepower of mechanical energy.  Now that
is a fact and sounds really great  but it's not so great because if all
that heat goes back down hill to the ambient temperature atmosphere  from
which it came it can  not produce more than the one horsepower of
mechanical energy that caused the six horsepower in heat energy to be
rejected in the first place.   The best way to see that is to first see the
Air conditioner using one horsepower of mechanical energy to deliver the
six horsepower of heat.  Then imagine that six horsepower of heat going
right back down through that Air conditioner to where it came from paying
back that one horsepower of mechanical energy.  The efficiency going
backwards like this would be 1 devided by 6 = 16%  or the reciprocal of the
COPhp of the Heat pump. Now, not only is there no gain but we have those
losses that I mentioned earlyer.    

So do we give up like those people before us or do we keep looking for an
answer because we know that if the little bird can do it then there must be
an even better way, As much better than the Bird  as Compression
refrigeration is over evaporative cooling.  So we keep on trying and some
day  WHAMMO,  We see the light.  Not only does this Air conditioner have a
hot side but it has a cold side too.  That means that we can use that cold
side to create a cold reservoir that is colder than the ambient temperature
air so that the heat on the engine side can travel  FURTHER DOWN A
TEMPERATURE HILL THAN WHERE THE WORK OF COMPRESSION BEGAN AT AMBIENT
TEMPERATURE AT THE COMPRESSOR IN PUSHING IT UP HILL and we do this at NO
EXTRA COST because this cold side is already there.  

Now we need a heat exchanger positioned at the bottom.  Let's call it heat
exchanger C.  It's purpose is to let the Air conditioner take some of  it's
input heat from the engine exhaust gas (only to cool that exhaust gas so
that it will condense before it goes to the liquid feed pump )  and we then
go and pick up additional heat  from the atmosphere at a heat exchanger we
will call A which is positioned on the left side of the compressor before
returning to the compressor  for the next cycle. 

Now we also see that when we absorbed heat from the exhausted engine gas
then that caused that gas to condense so that the liquid feed pump can send
the liquid back up to heat exchanger  B  to be boiled again by the heat
comming from the left side.  Let's draw a little feed pump right on the
shaft so we can see that action.  

Now let's think about this concept.  It is a continuous cycle and may not
be so easy to see both happenings. 
So let's break it down into two events.  I'm  going to use the second event
first because you will remember it from high school science class.  Thats
where the teacher boiled a little bit of water in a metal can and then
turned the fire off and put the cap on the can.  Pretty soon the steam
began to cool and condense and you saw the pressure of the atmosphere crush
the can.  Now thats the happening from the cold side of our Air
conditioner.  But there is also a hot side happening.  To see that let's
take that crushed can and turn the fire back on under it.  As the water
boils and turns to steam it strightens the can back out.    In our case it
will be backwards.  That is,  first we use heat to strighten the can out
and then when the heat is removed we crush the can for free.   That
crushing action represents work that would have been thrown away before
like steam engines did before they invented Condensers.    

Now you don't have to be a genius to see that there is a double whammy here
once this is explained to you.  Heat Engines are not very efficient but you
can have a double whammy 
that is not possible with electric Electric motors, Hydraulic motors or any
other kind of Prime mover.  Now you say  "But even the modern day Condenser
equipped steam turbine with it's double whammy  is only  40% efficient".
Well you are absolutely correct, BUT what if that steam turbine could get
it's heat from the atmosphere at a COP of  five for one like an Air
conditioner does and then add the heat from the work of compression for a
total of six horsepower of heat ?  Then at 40% efficiency thats 2.4
horsepower produced. 

Now obviously  we can't power a steam turbine with an Air conditioner
because of the temperatures of the reservoirs that is required for water,
so let's use somthing that boils at a lower temperature like the
refrigerant in an Air conditioner and then build the backwards Air
conditioner  ( heat engine that runs on Refrigerant ).   If you really
understand the concept you will know that the only thing that could prevent
this from working is if the losses are to great.  I believe that with the
heat insulations of today it can be made to work.     

Now that you have come this far I must explain that this vacuum or crushing
action will not actually take place in our condenser like it does in a real
world steam engine.  The steam engine condenser cooling  comes from river
water or cooling towers and is way below the boiling point of water
resulting in that vacuum.   Now in our case we do not have the vacuum on
the engine side but Mother Nature gave us somthing in exchange for that.
She gave us excess pressure on the input to the compressor on the Air
conditioner side and it amounts to much more than the 28.5 inches of vacuum
found in steam turbine Condensers which is about 1.5 psia.  We will not
have that low 1.5 psia in our condenser.  We will have 14.7 psia which is
not good but we can gain much more on the left side than we give up on the
right side depending on what refrigerant we use.  
 
I especially like the pressure of  R-410A.   It shows that at a suction
temperature of  40 degrees F.  the R-410A has a pressure of  132 psia. and
at a condensing temperature of 100 degrees it has a pressure of  331 psia.
The compressor is pushing hot gas to heat exchanger  B  that transfers the
heat to the refrigerant on the right side that powers the heat engine.  So
the back pressure on the compressor is 331 psia and the forward pressure
then on the engine  ( which is on the same shaft ) is also 331 psia.  So
they cancel each other out.  This leaves 132 psia on the input to the
compressor and one atmosphere on the output of the engine ( which again is
the same shaft ).  So 132 minus 14.7 leaves 117 psia over and above
everything to do work at the output shaft.  

Now that is NOT static pressure.  Those figures that you are looking at are
from actual refrigeration units in operation.  The ASHRAE  Engineers show
how many BTUs are moved for one horsepower between those two temperature
reservoirs.   So in an abstract way of thinking you can visualize it
backwards and know that instead of requiring one horsepower to compress,
it would deliver  MORE  than one horsepower while being   UN-compressed at
the engine because the heat is going further down a temperature hill than
where the work of compression began at ambient temperature to push it up
hill. That of course is before losses. 
  
I almost forgot to point out one other fact.  Real world Steam turbine
efficiencys are  just ( Turbine only )  It does not include boiler losses
which are substantial.  Our apparatus will not waste that substantial
amount of energy by blowing it into the atmosphere before the Engine even
sees it like the Boilers of steam power plants do.  And of course ours won't
create acid rain or nuclear waste. 

 I can't take credit for this double whammy thing ( except for naming it ).
 It's been here ever since they added the first Condenser to a steam
engine.  Actually the first Steam engines worked on vacuum only.  Then
later they used the pressure of the steam because it gave more power.  Then
later yet they incorporated a Condencer utilizing both pressure and vacuum.

****************************************************************************
****************************************************************************
************************
Now if you feel that the Double whammy is not enough then look at this next
little added attraction.

They rate Engines with ( efficiency ) and they rate Refrigerators with (
co-efficiency ).  Most people say ( coefficient of performance ) or simply
( C.O.P. )  Now if it's a Heat pump then it's  going to be ( C.O.P. hp. )
because there you get to add the heat from the work of compression to the
heat that was extracted. 

As I explained earlyer, the output of a Heat pump would be the reciprocal
of what it is if you used the Heat pump backwards as a Heat engine.  Now we
know that some refrigerants have a better COP than others.  Okay then we
would want to use the best one for the heat pump side.  But  we would want
to use one with a poor COP for the Engine.  

Before continuing I want to nail down some exact refrigerants.  I know that
later we will find some that will work even better.  But for now I give you
R-610 ( Ethyl Ether ) with a COP of  5.74 to 1 for the Heat pump side and
R-170 ( Ethane) with a COP of  2.41 to 1  for the Engine side.  These COPs
are based on a 5 degree F. Evaporating temperature and an 86 degree F.
Condensing temperature.  This data comes from the 1985 ASHRAE Fundamentals
Handbook, Table 7 of 16.8 and 16.9     Now if you can find better ones from
newer books then thats great but for now I 'll go with these. 
 
Let's say that with Ethyl Ether in the Heat pump we do one horsepower of
work on the compressor and it extracts 5.74  horsepower of heat and adds
the one horsepower of heat from the work of compression to it and rejects
6.74 horsepower of heat. To get technical thats 42.416 B.T.U. per
Horsepower X 6.74 horsepower.  But going backwards as an Engine the
efficiency would be the reciprocal of  6.74/1  or 1/6.74 or 1 devided by
6.74 = 14.8% efficient.  Thats not good enough to use on the Engine side so
lets use the Ethane because it has a poor COPhp in the forward mode which
means that it would work good in the reverse mode for  Engine efficiency.
You may want to give that some thought before continuing.  I say that it
can't be wrong.  What goes up must come down.  When it went up the losses
are there but not lost because they come out as heat and heat is what the
Heat pump is all about.  Now when it comes back down we will have the
undesirable mechanical losses of the Engine which is about 30% in this case
because we don't have to contend with the Carnot equations for the
efficiency of an ideal engine since we already have it.  We have the real
world COPhp of the Ethane in a real world Heat pump.  

Let's see how good  that Ethane will be as the working fluid in the Engine.
 Let's take that Cop of 2.41 to 1 and add what would have been the heat
from the work of compression for a total of  3.41  and look at it's
reciprocal.  1 devided by 3.41 = 29.3%  efficiency. Now let's go back to
the 6.74 horsepower of heat rejected by the Heat pump when using
Ethyl-Ether.  Let's say we loose 10% at Heat exchanger B.  Okay that leaves
6.06 horsepower in heat going to the Engine.  The Engine ( if perfect )
using Ethane  would have converted  29.3%   ( the reciprocal of what it
would have been as a Heat pump ).   So 6.06 x .293 leaves 1.775 horsepower.
 But the mechanical efficiency of that Engine is only 70%,  so 70% of 1.775
leaves 1.24 horsepower.  Now We use 1 horsepower to run the  Compressor
leaving .24 horsepower and we use .1 horsepower for the liquid feed pump.
This leaves  .14 horsepower  to do external work.  And thats not even
counting the double whammy effect in case you don't believe in that part.

Now the losses of Heat exchanger C were not counted because they are after
the Engine and we are picking up all the additional heat that we need at
the atmospheric heat exchanger A.  Heat exchanger C after the Engine needs
to be good enough to remove enough heat to cause the Ethane to condense and
that should be easy due to the fact that 10% of the heat was lost at heat
exchanger B and of that which was left 29.3%  x 70% or 20%  was converted
into work by the Engine.  

Now Remember! I am not asking for more Heat energy than is available in the
ambient temperature atmosphere.

One last thought about working fluids that would have a poor COP in the
forward mode but would be good for Engine efficiency in the reverse mode.
I'm sure that there must be many working fluids out there that have a poor
COP and a few that have a really bad COP and they are not even listed in
the books.  Why should they be?  Nobody ever wanted them before.

Afterthought,  It has occured to me that this apparatus need not be built
in ordered to prove this COP versus Efficiency concept.  ASHRAE has already
proved the different COPs of some different Refrigerants in the forward
mode.  All that is left to prove is that these differences also exist in
the reverse mode as efficiencys.  Common sence tells me that it has to be a
fact. But how can we prove it without building this whole thing?  Is there
an easy way to do it and then search for working fluids with really bad
COPs to use in the Engine side ?

                                                      FINIS
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 19 12:24:47 1999
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From: LR <LR@SoftHome.net>
Subject: David Hamel message about pyramid...
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Hi Mr. Ryan James, and all,

http://altern.org/hamelconnection/

I will activate the sound message, then you will be able to hear him, in about
5 hours maximum.  I don't have finished to write the text, and to draw all the
drawings.  Anyway, you will be able to hear him...

Bye!
Louis.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 19 19:26:03 1999
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From: patrick tremblay <energeon@microtec.net>
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Hi,

As I recall, the drinking bird actually makes use of temperature difference
between the water in the glass and the cooling reservoir

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On Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:27:19 -0400 patrick tremblay
<energeon@microtec.net> writes:
>Hi,
>
>As I recall, the drinking bird actually makes use of temperature 
>difference
>between the water in the glass and the cooling reservoir

Hi Folks,
On the drinking bird I had, it was the temperature difference
between the cool end (the beak) and the liquid in the reservoir
and the bird's other "end".

David 

E-MAIL TO:  broompilot@juno.com  (no attachments)
Otherwise:  broomer@jps.net

___________________________________________________________________
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 19 20:05:39 1999
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, "suse-linux-e@suse.com" <suse-linux-e@suse.com>
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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 20:00:49 -0700
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On Mon, 19 Jul 1999, Timothy Flytcher wrote:
> with a full wave rectifier... what caps work best to eliminate (smooth out) 
> 60Hz????
> I should remember this ... but can't and my note books are barred in storage 
> right now as we are remodelling our house ... major stress!!!
> 
> Thank you,
> Timothy...
> 
> >
> >Most of us are aware how 4 diodes can be put together
> >in a diamond shape for
> >a full wave rectifier.Either opposite corner can be
> >inputed with AC and
> >pulsed DC is obtained from the remaining corners shown
> >as the path bisecting
> >the diamond with the load in the center.
> 
> 

4700uf are a good start, at 60hz, frankly, you want big ones...

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 19 21:25:35 1999
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YES only works with worm water... not with ice water!!!
>Hi,
>
>As I recall, the drinking bird actually makes use of temperature difference
>between the water in the glass and the cooling reservoir
>


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 19 22:43:08 1999
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[Unable to display image]In a message dated 7/19/99 12:28:26 PM Mountain 
Daylight Time, Boytrell@proaxis.com writes:

<< Subj:	 ambient energy
 Date:	7/19/99 12:28:26 PM Mountain Daylight Time
 From:	Boytrell@proaxis.com (Boyd cantrell)
 Reply-to:	<A HREF="mailto:freenrg-l@eskimo.com">freenrg-l@eskimo.com</A>
 To:	freenrg-L@eskimo.com
 
 I would like to hear opinions on this.  The real meat of it starts about
 2/3 of the way down at the three rows of asterisks.
 I especially would like to hear ideas about how to accomplish that which I
 ask in the last paragraph.
 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 THERMO-DYNE  MACHINE   NUMBER TWO
 by Boyd Cantrell
  >>
<< Hi Boyd,
What an email you wrote, I couldn't read all or everything but what I felt 
was this:
You have a vast understanding of ambient energy and further more you are very 
interested about the subject that to me clearly shows the great passion and 
the gift you posses. Boyd you are the man to do this project, period. No 
other comments excepted just do it. Start making small experiment, (That's 
exactly what I have been thinking for a while here to make giant drinking 
bird machine by using R 11,
I may still make it, I don't know yet) 
You really have lots of knowledge in the field,  and you seems to understand 
the math well (which I don't, how to build yes no problem here, but one can't 
build like a blind man either) 
So large organizations like NASA they don't have the gifts like you do. They 
get paid to do the work they do, but you don't so the difference is something 
that money can't buy it you know. 
Do you think you can employ people to be inventors? And invent things?
I don't think so, to be able to invent a device similar like you talked 
requires immense desire for freedom and mastery over the internal faculties 
of the soul that is born with specific wisdom or a knowledge to create and to 
be free. From the forces 
 (money changers in the land) that are 
in power to day who has somehow got full control of power production on earth 
that 
absolutely have no interest whatsoever to get involve or sponsor even to 
research a project that down the road such machine or a device someday will 
work independently without buying anything from them... We all know these 
conspirators almost playing god on earth. But I believe time is changing most 
specially Y2k bug will bite power plants and many other industries, no one 
desires 
catastrophe buy we know that date is set and can't be changed. 
The point I am making is that, difficult times will bring back Yankee 
ingenuity in to the land to solve our problems again, free energy machines 
will come out to serve people as never before. There maybe some harsh times 
to but we hope and pray that 
God will direct people how they can survive... 

Here is a very interesting motivation message I received from a new friend 
that I met recently, she send me this wonderful message I am forwarding to 
you.

Monday, July 19, 1999

SUCCESS IS WAITING FOR YOU.
-------------------------------------
If you want to be successful, 
you can start anytime.
But you must start.

Taking a new step, uttering a new word,
is what people fear most.
You won't accomplish anything if you wait 
for all the possible objections to be overcome.

Don't be afraid to live.  Don't wait for things to change.
Until you have more time, until you are less tired,
until you get the promotion, until you settle down, until, until, until.
Don't wait for a major event in your life to occur before you begin to live.

Begin where you are.  Work where you are.
The hour you are wasting now,
dreaming of some far off success,
is crowded with tremendous possibilities.

When you take the first step,
your mind will mobilize all its forces to assist you.  
Once you have started,
all that is within and without you will come to your assistance.

The only way to start is to start. 
-------------------------------------
 1999 Written by: Mentor2006@aol.com 
 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Jul 20 04:41:46 1999
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 12:34:09 +0100
Subject: Re(2): Your PV information
To: normpems@erie.net
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From: J.F.Grant@shu.ac.uk (John F. GRANT)
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normpems@erie.net writes:
>Hi John,
>
>You were very thorough, and the information was more than I could have hoped for.
>The information was, naturally, about the British version of the PV cell.  Are those statistics fairly uniform across the
>breadth of the World-wide industry?  (ie, size, cost, etc.)  I was not aware they were so expensive for the initial cost.
>
>I also assume that not just anybody can configure them for their optimum usage.  I am quite ignorant when it comes to PV
>cells, so you can imagine how thrilled I was to get your information.
>
>Would you mind if I used your information in future posts?  I will maintain confidentiality if you wish.
>
>Again, THANK YOU very much for the information.
>
No problem in using the info. I posted and feel free to use my name - the info. is taken from public conferences.  

On your points - yes I think the statistics are quite uniform across the world, but it wouldn't surprise me if they were a
little cheaper in the US because of the massive market over there.  The other issue is that the industry is developing almost
daily, so if anything the situation can only be better now than compared to the data I posted.  In fact I received a very
cryptic message from a renewable energy group - NATTA (Network for Alternative Technology and Technology Assessment -
http://www-tec.open.ac.uk/eeru/natta/rol.html) you can look at it on the Net but it states that a new panel has been developed
by the Swiss, it's 33 per cent efficient, semi-transparent (which means you could possibly use it as windows!) and its thin
film technology - which means the panel is so thin, the material you would lay the silicon on to form the panel (substrate)
would probably cost more than the PV part of the panel!!!! The panel I described in my earlier post (the BP585) is called a
crystalline silicon panel they've been around much longer and generally thought of as being a more mature reliable technology. 
They're more expensive - but  they have always been far more efficient (which made up for the extra cost) but IF (I must stress
it's a big if - six months doesn't go by without one research group or another claiming they've made an awesome breakthrough
only to state later that a lot more work will be necessary) this Swiss panel is real, the whole economics of solar technology
will change utterly - it's potentially the most significant energy development since we discovered fire.

If I hear anything more on it I'll post it here.

On the point of cost now, I realise that when you see the costs it's always a shock, but it's really a point of view problem
when you look at the cost of for example cars, if you drive a 4x4 or pick-up truck it's very likely that if you down graded
your vehicle (save arround 15,000 dollars) you could then afford a small solar roof (and actually make some money on it - it's
likely the car will only cost you money<grin>).  I red the other day about an American couple who were building they're own
home.  They planned to have an imported marble bathroom but eventually decided to swap it for a ceramic bathroom and be self
sufficient in energy - so next time someone states how expensive PVs are you've got some common sense arguments to counter them
(they never take into account that there are other issues here other than money - surely your respect of the planet should rate
as high as the money you have in your wallet?).  And finally, the big area for PV's is the developing world, check out the
"Shell Solar" web site about their South African programme - I won't bore you with it hear unless someone asks me to privately.

Your other point on optimisation is probably valid, but there are some excellent web sites and books on the subject.  A good
start is the Home Power online Magazine - http://www.homepower.com/.

Hope this is useful.

TTFN,
          John.F.
*************************************************
John F. Grant
Research Associate
Resources Research Unit
Science Park (Unit 12)
Sheffield Hallam University
City campus
Sheffield S1 1 WB

Tel : 0114 225 4034
Fax: 0114 225 4496
e-mail: j.f.grant@shu.ac.uk
*****************************************
"Never be angry when fools act like fools,
It's better when they identify themselves,
It removes so much uncertainty"
                                           Orson Scott Card

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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 11:54:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Anton Rager <a_rager@yahoo.com>
Subject: Magnetic Supershielding
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Hello all,

This caught my attention this morning.  Might have
some impacts on magentic motor researchers?

Magnetic Supershielding
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/07/990720083341.htm


Here's the entire article [I know -- the formating is
screwed.]



------------------------------------------------
CWRU Physicists Invent
                 "Supershielding" For MRI Devices 

                 CLEVELAND -- The work of a thief is
not the only way to rob you of the
                 use of your credit cards and
computers. Magnetic fields can zap the power
                 from life's modern conveniences. 

                 Robert Brown and Shmaryu Shvartsman,
physicists in the College of Arts and
                 Sciences at Case Western Reserve
University, have created an armor they
                 call "supershielding." The physicists
will report on their new invention in the
                 article, "Supershielding: Confinement
of Magnetic and Electric Fields,"
                 tentatively scheduled for an August
issue of Physical Review Letters. 

                 The shielding completely contains
magnetic fields as large as 10,000 times the
                 Earth's natural magnetic field. Some
of today's important technologies produce
                 fields this great and wreak havoc
with the identification codes on credit cards,
                 wipe out computer memories, and
become a mini-radio station, giving off a
                 strong signal that interferes with
commercial television and radio stations. 

                 Brown, the Institute Professor of
Physics, and Shvartsman, senior research
                 scientist in CWRU's Department of
Physics, recently made a joint application
                 with Picker International to the U.S.
Patent Office for a patent on
                 supershielding. Michael Morich and
Labros Petropoulos, Picker engineering
                 scientists and Brown's former
students, are also named on the patent
                 application, along with another
former graduate student, Hiroyuki Fujita. 

                 The researchers have designed a
method that can remarkably suppress the
                 magnetic fields outside high-tech
devices such as magnetic resonance imaging
                 (MRI) machines. 

                 Previously, the suppression has been
carried out by positioning an iron barrier
                 or a set of secondary coils outside
the main coil that produces the original
                 unshielded field. In each case, the
field is left alive inside where it is needed to
                 do its work. 

                 Brown says that Picker International,
a pioneer in computerized axial
                 tomography (CAT scans) and magnetic
resonance technology, and other
                 manufacturers of imaging equipment
are attempting to make smaller machines
                 that are less claustrophobic for the
patient. As the need for shorter and more
                 open systems has grown, along with
the desire for higher-quality shielding, the
                 old methods of shielding have not
kept pace. 

                 Two years ago, Picker posed a
shielding question to Brown and his research
                 group at CWRU. Morich and Petropoulos
formulated the specific problem. In
                 response, the CWRU researchers came
up with a surprising theoretical
                 solution. 

                 Brown explains that a shielding coil
is used again, but the secondary and
                 primary currents have to "dance"
together to achieve supershielding, where the
                 opposing coil currents cancel out the
magnetic forces emitted. 

                 He likens the results to a dam with a
hole in it. "Instead of plugging the hole
                 with a finger to stop the leakage,
the dam can be discarded and the finger
                 holds everything back by itself,"
Brown says. 

                 "We couldn't believe it when we first
did the mathematics. We found with a
                 short and open outside shield, we
could get the same perfect suppression
                 obtained by an infinite shield," he
adds. "We had a zero magnetic field
                 everywhere outside, even in those
regions where there was no secondary
                 coil." 

                 Trapping magnetic fields in a closed
container presents no problem, but to be
                 able to trap them with an open-coil
system is what shocked the CWRU
                 research physicists. Shvartsman adds
that every time they describe the result
                 to experts, the initial reaction is
disbelief. 

                 Upon patent approval, Picker will
have rights to the medical diagnostics, while
                 CWRU will have the rights to use the
shielding concept in all other
                 applications, such as electronic
microscopes or microelectromechanical
                 systems (MEMS). 

                 "Everyone is trying to take smaller
and smaller computer chips and pack them
                 closer and closer together. The need
to shield them from each other becomes
                 more acute," says Brown. 

                 The supershielding concept can also
be applied to electric fields. By turning
                 the shielding around, it can protect
interior regions from an external field. 

                 The magnetic and electric field
shielding demands of future technology may
                 well be met by protective, but open
helmets of electric current and electric
                 charges, adds Brown. "With only
partial screening, a magnetic field system, as
                 with Perseus in his Helmet of Hades,
can be made invisible to outsiders." 

                 Editor's Note: The original news
release can be found at
                
http://www.cwru.edu/pubaff/univcomm/shield.htm 

---------------------------------------------------


===
Anton Rager
a_rager@yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Jul 20 10:49:51 1999
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 10:50:16 -0700
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From: Boyd cantrell <Boytrell@proaxis.com>
Subject: Re: Ambient energy machine
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To 
MKSBoysal,
I appreciate the words but I can't build it myself.  I am 63 with bad heart
and was hoping to find some one to take over before I die.  If  I don't
find some one then it may be another 150 years before some one sees what I
saw in the different COPs of refrigerants.  I know in reason that it would
have to hold true in the reverse mode as Engine efficiencys.  
This would not be like trying to create energy out of nothing.  After all,
the heat is already here and we should be able to convert it into another
form of energy.  
To say NO is like telling me that I have money in the Bank but can't
exchange    any of it for potatoes.
Sincerely Boyd
To you other commentors,  The water in the glass is not warmer than the
air.  Every thing starts out at the same temperature.  The evaporating
causes a decrease in temperature which causes the R-11 to condense and
cause an unballance so gravity takes over.  Remember the cloth water bag  ?
( desert bag ) that leaks just enough to stay wet so that the evaporation
keeps the water inside cool ?.
Best regards, Boyd

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Jul 20 19:29:25 1999
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Ryan James wrote:

> can't seem to pull up sound wave on pyramids
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: LR <LR@SoftHome.net>
> To: <freenrg-L@eskimo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, July 18, 1999 5:20 PM
> Subject: David Hamel - new stuff!!
>
> > Hi all !
> >
> > New "stuff" from David Hamel.  Ok, I have not finished my homeworks, but
> you
> > can take a look (and "hear"...) right here:
> >
> > http://altern.org/hamelconnection/
> >
> > Bye!
> > Louis.
> >
> >

You arent missing anything...it's all pseudo-scientific mush!

 What about the saucer? Can he *prove* it works? What about Project Magnet?
..no results? Then it doesnt matter! This list is about FREE ENERGY..not New
Age horse-fritters! Go litter the mush-head lists with this nonsense!

 ( As an aside..I'm pricing a custom-made Chernetsky tube from a local
neon-dealer
..and jeez is it expen$ive!  The guy isn't thrilled with filling the tube with
hydrogen
and then pulling a mild vacuum on it before sealing...claiming it won't stay
evacuated
and that an air leak might render it explosive...like I didn't know that -
DUH!  Does
anyone on this list have a vacuum pump they'd like to sell?? )

 Erik

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Jul 20 19:36:10 1999
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Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:35:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Tesla, longitdn. waves
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95q.990717112850.20621B-100000@exeter>
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On Sat, 17 Jul 1999, Cornwall RO wrote:

> I think rigoruous analysis is necessary to see the transition between:
> wire pair, coax, waveguide.
> 
> To me, the first and last are the easiest. Say we use coax fro VHF and
> UHF, wavelengths 30m to 3cm. How da hell do they squeeze into a cable? 

Yeah, and how can a 500 nM light wave come out of an atom that's a
fraction of a nM across?  I've never heard a good explanation of this.  As
antennas, atoms are way too small!

Also, don't forget that coax cable works fine at HF and audio and DC, with
no glitches in the frequency spectrum.  As far as EM waves are concerned,
cables are infinitely narrow, yet the energy can go along them anyway.


> The
> wire pairs are doing something so its not correct to say that the energy
> is travelling soley down the dielectric.

The wire pairs are doing something, but that something is not a flow of
energy.  One way to think about it is to refer to fundamentals:  if we
have a hydrogen atom, and we pull the electron away from the proton, we
store potential energy.  Where is this energy located?  Conventional
physics says that it's in the fields which connect the electron to the
proton.  The electron and proton *are* important.  They connect the
field-energy to the world of matter.  But the energy is not inside the
electron or the proton.  Now if wires are made of electrons and protons,
then the flowing energy is in the fields, and that energy connects to the
rest of the physical world only because those fields can apply forces to
the electrons and protons, and vice versa. 


> I don't think the analogy with sound is correct. Here we have SHM about a
> center. In a metal you have a plasma of free e-. But there again, if you
> displace, you create an imbalanced charge distrb. and a restoring force.

Right... conductors are always filled with charge whether its electrons in
a metal or ions floating in electrolyte or water droplets falling through
a thunderstorm cloud.  To transmit energy along a wire, we push on one
glob of charge, which pushes on the next, which pushes on the next, etc. 
Very much like sound.  The big difference is that sound travels by
physical contact, while charges in a wire can push/pull on each other
without touching. 

Back in 1986 I made one of those "Newton's Cradle" things, but instead of
using steel balls, I used ceramic loudspeaker magnets.  Pull one magnet
back and release it, and it "hits" the next magnet without touching it.
The wave travels along the row of hanging magnets until the magnet on the
far end flys outwards.  Wires are supposed work like that, but they use
charges instead of magnetic poles, and the charges don't weigh very much.
(If we always ignore the weight of charges, we unfortunately forget that
those charges are matter, not energy.) 

> 
> I think my educator glossed over this in my undergrad years and we took a
> little too much on trust. My intution is seeing a long copper line o/c at
> the far end, pulse gen. at the near. Yes, it's like pinging a string BUT I
> need to ground my pulse gen. - two wire. There again, what determines the
> pulse's transit time, it doesn't go at c but maybe 2/3c. The distrubance
> seems to travel in both space and the wire. The wire acts as a guide.

The velocity of waves in coaxial cable is supposed to depend on the type
of dielectric.  I think it moves at c if the wires are bare.  It certainly
does if the wires are straight, as with a half-wave dipole antenna.  With
the antenna there is no ground needed.  A radio transmitter pulls charge
out of one side of the dipole while is pumps charge into the other. 
Charge acts compressible, like a gas.  And even if transverse EM waves are
being radiated by a dipole antenna, the electrons in that antenna are
moving longitudinally as they communicate energy from the transmitter to
all parts of the wire. 




((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Jul 20 21:23:12 1999
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eks1 wrote:

>  ( As an aside..I'm pricing a custom-made Chernetsky tube from a local
> neon-dealer
> ..and jeez is it expen$ive!  The guy isn't thrilled with filling the tube with
> hydrogen.....
> 
>  Erik

Hey Erik,

I was just wondering, would it be safer to pull a vaccuum on your tube
for about 24 hours and then slowly let in a precise amount of h2?  Or
maybe that is the way its done anyway?

Good luck!

Chad May

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 21 00:40:28 1999
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From: "Harvey Norris" <tesla4@excite.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Tesla, longitdn. waves
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On Tue, 20 Jul 1999 19:35:42 -0700 (PDT), William Beaty wrote:

> On Sat, 17 Jul 1999, Cornwall RO wrote:
> 
> > I think rigoruous analysis is necessary to see the transition between:
> > wire pair, coax, waveguide.
> > 
> > To me, the first and last are the easiest. Say we use coax fro VHF and
> > UHF, wavelengths 30m to 3cm. How da hell do they squeeze into a cable? 
> 
> Yeah, and how can a 500 nM light wave come out of an atom that's a
> fraction of a nM across?  I've never heard a good explanation of this.
As
> antennas, atoms are way too small!
> 
> Also, don't forget that coax cable works fine at HF and audio and DC,
with
> no glitches in the frequency spectrum.  As far as EM waves are concerned,
> cables are infinitely narrow, yet the energy can go along them anyway.
>> I never thought the original subject case of transcontinental cable
should be brought out for the rest of us concerning this kind of electrical
transmission. Isnt there something there a long time ago? Wasn't there a
lesson to be learned by educated pions? And by the way do double arrows mean
anything anyway? 

HDN Computer illiterate from Ohio. All seriousness aside lets move to
Transtroms statements.  
 
Concerning the farce of science on one ended capacities:

The capacity of isolated spheres are found to vary as their radii ( Ha!
never knew how plural radius was spelled!)

 A sphere having radius of 1 cm  has unit electrostatic capacity, so this
science was passed on in the following manner...  

A sphere having a radius of 9 times 10 to the (11) power or  9*10^(11) cm as
expressed as an exponential
function is equivalent to a capacity of ONE FARAD.

A sphere of 900,000 CENTIMETER radius equals one microfarad. This is 9000
meters radius alone for one equivalent polar microfarad? I say nonsensce.
How can these definitions exist? It is easy to react the aluminum siding of
a house in a high frewquency effect and then the detractors say you were
connected to the earth? Well whats the polar capacity of the earth according
to these ill defined scientific mumbo jumbo?

I think what a lot of people miss is that the electrical conductivity of the
earth occurs as a function of a MODULATION OF ACCEPTANCE OF HIGH 
FREQUENCY TO GROUND THAT OCCURS ABOUT 8-10 CYCLES/SEC.

It is the priviledge of cold war to make long antennaes
and fool everyone to think such a low wave propagation is the only way it
works!

Ha Ha Ha ; it works differently to the understanding
of all the thinkers...





_______________________________________________________
Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 21 07:36:51 1999
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Chad May wrote:

>
> Hey Erik,
>
> I was just wondering, would it be safer to pull a vaccuum on your tube
> for about 24 hours and then slowly let in a precise amount of h2?  Or
> maybe that is the way its done anyway?
>
> Good luck!
>
> Chad May

 As I recall from the neon-arts class a few years back, the drill is:

1) flush down the tube with something cheap and inert, like nitrogen or CO2. Done
with the tube in a vertical position, filling from the lower inlet so as to displace
the
air upwards.
2) close the lower inlet, apply vacuum to the upper outlet - pump down to -400 Torr
or so..depending on the quality of the pump.. for 12-24 hrs.
3) close outlet. let the vacuum pump/tube cool off.
4) hookup H2 to upper connection/ vacuum pump to lower connection.
5) meter in precise quantity (apply ideal gas law here) of H2, start vacuum pump.
6) Top off with a smaller quantity of H2 and continue pumping down to whatever
idealized vacuum you wanted. Stop & disconnect pump & H2 source.
7) heat, twist and seal off BOTH connections.

 Normally they just flush the tubing with an excess of neon, and seal. The vacuum
pump process is waay too expen$ive for commercial sign-kraft, and the remaining
air molecules don't really hurt the look/life span that much. On items that require
a
maximum purity factor and/or reduced pressure/voltage, they will use this process.

 Lowering the pressure reduces voltage requirements for ionization. I've located my
stash of neon sign transformers, and have several to pick from, ranging from 10kv
to 30kv. These are a real treasure I've learned, since new ones cost upwards of
$100 nowadays! (As I remember, these were "moving-day" give-aways from some
fellow ham radio folks!) Remember kids, always help your friends move!

 The circuit I am planning to use is the classic from Frolov's texts; having the
tube in
series with the transformer's secondary, along with a large capacitor in parallel.
 The load bank consisting of 6-12 common incandescent lamps, each rated
100w@110vac. These are put in the transformer's primary loop, along with a
small-value tuning cap in parallel. The 'exciter circuit' can be either an applied
80-120v at the primary, OR a 6kv-10kv ACROSS the tube. I'm planning to use
a 10v Peak-to-Peak function generator, with a wideband linear amp running up
to 300w RMS output and inserting this ACROSS the plasma tube..looking for a
sweet-spot somewhere in the HF spectrum of 2-30MHz initially. If it works, the
plasma should begin to "cohere" the quantum-vacuum fluctuations, or as Chernetsky
claims: "..the virtual positrons will transfer some of their energy to the
electrons.."

The increase in energy would then drive the lamp bank to full output, some 1200w
RMS, for a system number of ~2.00 or two times the input, assuming a total of
600w RMS input to drive the amp. (Remember, if it's LINEAR you'll get 50%
efficiency from the amp! You can get LESS...but not more and be LINEAR!) So
with a small amount of power driving the function generator..(25-40w RMS..) the
system might actually be 1.75-1.60 OU..a lesser efficiency than Chernetsky's claim
of 5.00 but still a useful demonstrator..I'd settle for 1.1 !! ;)

 Seriously, if anyone has been down this road...write me. Let's compare notes.

 cheers!

     Erik aka KB6LUY

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From: Cornwall RO <R.O.Cornwall@city.ac.uk>
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Hi,
Give me some time to respond. Currently helping someone with a near zero
reactive motion setup and as I do the analysis, I believe reactionless
motion is possible. Eric Laithwaite's spirit has invaded me, I have
something with his signiture on my shelf. The force works in mysterious
ways (half serious ever had a mystical experience? Don't shut it out
confront it and understand it). Newtonian mechanics - old physics,
baloney!

On Tue, 20 Jul 1999, William Beaty wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Jul 1999, Cornwall RO wrote:
> 
> > I think rigoruous analysis is necessary to see the transition between:
> > wire pair, coax, waveguide.
> > 
> > To me, the first and last are the easiest. Say we use coax fro VHF and
> > UHF, wavelengths 30m to 3cm. How da hell do they squeeze into a cable? 
> 
> Yeah, and how can a 500 nM light wave come out of an atom that's a
> fraction of a nM across?  I've never heard a good explanation of this.  As
> antennas, atoms are way too small!

The smaller the apature (spelling, who cares) the less efficient the
antenna. So maybe it takes longer to squeeze its energy out. Anyway, the
late Tinsley's pet subject, 'how big is a photon?'

There is a lot of life in old physics looked at from fresh eyes. you plant
a seed on this server and somebody may germinate an idea months later.

> The wire pairs are doing something, but that something is not a flow of
> energy.  One way to think about it is to refer to fundamentals:  if we
> have a hydrogen atom, and we pull the electron away from the proton, we
> store potential energy.  Where is this energy located?  Conventional
> physics says that it's in the fields which connect the electron to the
> proton.  The electron and proton *are* important.  They connect the
> field-energy to the world of matter.  But the energy is not inside the
> electron or the proton.  Now if wires are made of electrons and protons,
> then the flowing energy is in the fields, and that energy connects to the
> rest of the physical world only because those fields can apply forces to
> the electrons and protons, and vice versa. 

In a sense they channel the energy.

> > I don't think the analogy with sound is correct. Here we have SHM about a
> > center. In a metal you have a plasma of free e-. But there again, if you
> > displace, you create an imbalanced charge distrb. and a restoring force.
> 
> Right... conductors are always filled with charge whether its electrons in
> a metal or ions floating in electrolyte or water droplets falling through
> a thunderstorm cloud.  To transmit energy along a wire, we push on one
> glob of charge, which pushes on the next, which pushes on the next, etc. 
> Very much like sound.  The big difference is that sound travels by
> physical contact, while charges in a wire can push/pull on each other
> without touching. 
> 
I'll think about this for a bit but sound has a different mechanism so you
can get longtd. waves.

Sorry Bill et al, just a bit preoccupied with somebody's work to do this
thread much justice. I need to adjust my nice values for the processes I'm
running in parallel - I'm missing interrupts and paging like hell!
Remi.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 21 14:13:07 1999
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From: Cornwall RO <R.O.Cornwall@city.ac.uk>
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Kylie McAlister
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Kylie,
Can you contact me off line? I know you're into breaking relativity and
space flight. I am doing some work for someone I respect greatly into a
near reactionless propulsion system. I can't comment much on your ideas
about relativity at this moment but htat will change in time with more
thought. I'd like to also talk about an experience this person had.
Remi. 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 21 14:15:29 1999
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From: Cornwall RO <R.O.Cornwall@city.ac.uk>
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Subject: John Collins
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John,
Can you contact me offline please. It's not about Bessler's wheel which I
still have doubts on but something a friend of mine has done which is
public domain where he has broken the symmetry of the arrangement - we
think. You should get to know him.
Remi.
                       

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 21 17:02:20 1999
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From: HLafonte@aol.com
Message-ID: <bc39d253.24c7b923@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 20:00:35 EDT
Subject: Site updated with building instructions
To: energy21@listbot.com
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Hi all,
I have put the first installment on my site for building proof of concept 
device.
The device size is up to each builder as are certain materials. Please send 
me some more input, and I will answer as time allows. I hope to move site to 
other than AOL in near future so bear with me.
Thanks,
Butch 
<A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/hlafonte/index.html">LaFonte Research site 1
</A>  or  http://hometown.aol.com/hlafonte/index.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 21 20:15:54 1999
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From: Keith Nagel <knagel@cnct.com>
Subject: Re: Chernetsky Plasma Tube ruminations..
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Hi.

OK, I'm somewhat familar with this, it's quite similar to the
work the Correa's are doing, yes? 

I'm not sure what you are hoping to achieve by driving the
circuit at the secondary, wouldn't the large cap in parallel
with the tube look like an effective short at those frequencies?
And if the tube is firing, what's to block the RF and LF hi voltage
from leaking back into the amp? Blocking caps? inductors?

Sadly, I'm not familiar with Frolov's texts, perhaps you
have a link or reference. 

For what it is worth, it sounds like with your arrangement
that you'd have a large cap limiting the potential of the
transformer secondary, perhaps rising high enough to fire the
tube. The cap would cause a nice high current discharge,
and either A) the lamp will stay on and draw some steady
current from the xformer or B) the lamp will deexcite
and the process will repeat. I suppose it's B you're shooting
for...

At 07:36 AM 7/21/99 -0700, you wrote:
> The circuit I am planning to use is the classic from Frolov's texts;
having the
>tube in
>series with the transformer's secondary, along with a large capacitor in
parallel.
> The load bank consisting of 6-12 common incandescent lamps, each rated
>100w@110vac. These are put in the transformer's primary loop, along with a
>small-value tuning cap in parallel. The 'exciter circuit' can be either an
applied
>80-120v at the primary, OR a 6kv-10kv ACROSS the tube. I'm planning to use
>a 10v Peak-to-Peak function generator, with a wideband linear amp running up
>to 300w RMS output and inserting this ACROSS the plasma tube..looking for a
>sweet-spot somewhere in the HF spectrum of 2-30MHz initially. If it works,
the
>plasma should begin to "cohere" the quantum-vacuum fluctuations, or as
Chernetsky
>claims: "..the virtual positrons will transfer some of their energy to the
>electrons.."
>
>The increase in energy would then drive the lamp bank to full output, some
1200w
>RMS, for a system number of ~2.00 or two times the input, assuming a total of
>600w RMS input to drive the amp. (Remember, if it's LINEAR you'll get 50%
>efficiency from the amp! You can get LESS...but not more and be LINEAR!) So
>with a small amount of power driving the function generator..(25-40w
RMS..) the
>system might actually be 1.75-1.60 OU..a lesser efficiency than
Chernetsky's claim
>of 5.00 but still a useful demonstrator..I'd settle for 1.1 !! ;)
>
> Seriously, if anyone has been down this road...write me. Let's compare
notes.
>
> cheers!
>
>     Erik aka KB6LUY
>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 21 23:08:50 1999
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From: Dave Dameron <ddameron@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: VACE FE motor??
In-Reply-To: <376B02BC.B3AA96B4@servtech.com>
References: <872e9b40.2495606d@aol.com>
 <3.0.6.16.19990613224646.1fffd1c0@earthlink.net>
 <3.0.6.16.19990614101318.239fd990@earthlink.net>
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At 10:38 PM 6/18/99 -0400, Bob wrote:
>I have updated my VACE web pages with:

>http://www.servtech.com/~rwgray/energy/VACE/vace01.html
>
I have finally done more tests with a powered coil representing the toroid
array of VACE elements. I found that any metal wires connected from the
coil to fixed objects had too much resistance to rotation, even a thin wire
to hang the coil. So I mounted a NiCd battery with the coil and switched it
on/off with a light activated relay. The whole assembly was hung by a thin
thread. 
As expected, I did not measure any torque with a external toroid
electromagnet.
An external permanent magnet usually has the assembly tilt for the opposite
poles to attract, but no PM motor either. A horizontal solenoid also works
well as a compass, the means I used to test the forces and rotations.
-Dave

>
>
>

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 22 04:39:56 1999
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Dave Dameron wrote:

> At 10:38 PM 6/18/99 -0400, Bob wrote:
> >I have updated my VACE web pages with:
>
> >http://www.servtech.com/~rwgray/energy/VACE/vace01.html
> >
> I have finally done more tests with a powered coil representing the toroid
> array of VACE elements. I found that any metal wires connected from the
> coil to fixed objects had too much resistance to rotation, even a thin wire
> to hang the coil. So I mounted a NiCd battery with the coil and switched it
> on/off with a light activated relay. The whole assembly was hung by a thin
> thread.
> As expected, I did not measure any torque with a external toroid
> electromagnet.

I don't understand why you are using a toroid electromagnet.  And Ampere
current element is just a piece of wire.  The VACEs, I thought, were suppose to

simulate Ampere current element, but with the magnetic field contained in the
material.
It sounds like you are using a toroid electromagnet to simulate a VACE.  But
the
electromagnet has a very complex arrangement of Ampere current elements.
So, I don't understand (yet) what you are doing.

>
> An external permanent magnet usually has the assembly tilt for the opposite
> poles to attract, but no PM motor either. A horizontal solenoid also works
> well as a compass, the means I used to test the forces and rotations.
> -Dave
>

If I were to try to check the motor idea with an electro magnet, I would have a

circular loop of wire (or lots of loops together) to represent the center
circle
of VACEs.  That is what the circle of VACEs are suppose to represent.  The
circle of VACEs represents a current loop.  So why not use a current loop?

Then, for the single external VACE, I would use two long magnets and two
end cap magnetic "keepers".  (Or a circularly magnetized magnet.)

Now the set up is like Marinov's motor except:
1) The current in the ring does not split.  In the Marinov motor case, the
current
    splits into a Clockwise and Counter-Clockwise half circle currents.  In
this
    case, the current goes in a complete circle.
2) The magnet elements are outside of the current ring.  In the Marinov motor,
    the two magnet rods (and end caps) are at the center of the current ring.
In my
   motor, the two magnet rods (and end caps) are outside the current ring.

The above test is to try to determine if Ampere's force law can really lead to
a net
torque.  The other (very important) question is whether or not VACEs really
are a good realization of an Ampere current element.  Tom Phipps has done
some research on this second question.  Its doesn't look good for VACEs.

Could you explain to me the idea of a toroidal electromagnet simulating a VACE?

Bob Gray

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 22 22:13:08 1999
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From: Dave Dameron <ddameron@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: VACE FE motor??
In-Reply-To: <379707D2.C21D43E3@servtech.com>
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 <3.0.6.16.19990614101318.239fd990@earthlink.net>
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Hi Bob and all,
At 08:00 AM 7/22/99 -0400, you wrote:

>> I have finally done more tests with a powered coil representing the toroid
>> array of VACE elements. I found that any metal wires connected from the
>> coil to fixed objects had too much resistance to rotation, even a thin wire
>> to hang the coil. So I mounted a NiCd battery with the coil and switched it
>> on/off with a light activated relay. The whole assembly was hung by a thin
>> thread.
>> As expected, I did not measure any torque with a external toroid
>> electromagnet.
>
>I don't understand why you are using a toroid electromagnet.  And Ampere
>current element is just a piece of wire.  The VACEs, I thought, were
suppose to
>
>simulate Ampere current element, but with the magnetic field contained in the
>material.
>It sounds like you are using a toroid electromagnet to simulate a VACE.

Yes, that's correct. Do you know of a way to distinguish the effects of a
hard (permanent) magnetic toroid from a soft magnetic toroid with an
applied H field?
I am doing this because my permanent magnet toroids have residual N-S poles
across a diameter and these swamp any "Ampere" interaction.
I do see that the applied currents in the electromagnet have a greater
density in the center hole, this may not be the case for a VACE.
>the
>electromagnet has a very complex arrangement of Ampere current elements.
>So, I don't understand (yet) what you are doing.
>
I am trying to answer my questions about VACE elements. Here are 5:
Is the virtual current element valid? (The ferromagnetic currents are in
loops.)
If not, what is causing the effects Tom Phipps and others have seen?
Should not the forces be seen with real current elements as well?
Why aren't the Ampere forces the same magnitude as the "Lorentz" forces as
the equations seem to show (when both are present)? Without a B field the
Lorentz predicts zero force.
Can there be perpendicular forces like with dipoles?
First I have to find some effect...

>If I were to try to check the motor idea with an electro magnet, I would
have a
>circular loop of wire (or lots of loops together) to represent the center
>circle
>of VACEs.  That is what the circle of VACEs are suppose to represent.  The
>circle of VACEs represents a current loop.  So why not use a current loop?

This is what my hanging coil is. It is easier to do it with "real"
currents. The coil has 40 turns and the NiCd battery can supply 6 Amps for
up to 10 min before recharging. This is a effective circulating current of
240 Amps.

>Then, for the single external VACE, I would use two long magnets and two
>end cap magnetic "keepers".  (Or a circularly magnetized magnet.)
>
>Now the set up is like Marinov's motor except:
>1) The current in the ring does not split.  In the Marinov motor case, the
>current
>    splits into a Clockwise and Counter-Clockwise half circle currents.  In
>this
>    case, the current goes in a complete circle.
>2) The magnet elements are outside of the current ring.  In the Marinov
motor,
>    the two magnet rods (and end caps) are at the center of the current ring.
>In my
>   motor, the two magnet rods (and end caps) are outside the current ring.
>
I am just finding out about Marinov motors (not the axle with 2 bearings)
and see what you mean about the similar setup except for the 180 deg.
symmetries.
Does your motor rotate or just move to a specific angle defined by the
symmetries? The ring doesn't have a specific angle itself.

-Dave

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 23 00:47:49 1999
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False Alarm!
The first law cannot be broken its to do with invariance of space and
time. I'm closed minded on this. Without going into details, the balls
were sucked into the column of water by a cohesion effect.
Duped for about 3/4 of a day.
Remi.            

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Subject: Re: VACE FE motor??
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	 <3.0.6.16.19990613224646.1fffd1c0@earthlink.net>
	 <3.0.6.16.19990614101318.239fd990@earthlink.net>
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Dave Dameron wrote:

>
> >
> >Now the set up is like Marinov's motor except:
> >1) The current in the ring does not split.  In the Marinov motor case, the
> >current
> >    splits into a Clockwise and Counter-Clockwise half circle currents.  In
> >this
> >    case, the current goes in a complete circle.
> >2) The magnet elements are outside of the current ring.  In the Marinov
> motor,
> >    the two magnet rods (and end caps) are at the center of the current ring.
> >In my
> >   motor, the two magnet rods (and end caps) are outside the current ring.
> >
> I am just finding out about Marinov motors (not the axle with 2 bearings)
> and see what you mean about the similar setup except for the 180 deg.
> symmetries.
> Does your motor rotate or just move to a specific angle defined by the
> symmetries? The ring doesn't have a specific angle itself.
>
> -Dave

Hi Dave, Thanks  for explainning things a little better to me.

I am rushed, so only a short note.

I want to make sure I don't give the (false) impression that I have
actually buildt this "motor"....   I have tried a couple of time, with
very limited resources.  I got no results worth mentioning.  But then
the setups were so bad that I don't want to mention them either. ;)

I'll think on what you have said...

I have started to wonder if the Marinov (and other effects) is due to
induced field leakage out of the magnets.  Since there is no such thing
as an ideal magnet loop (with *all* its magnetic field only inside the material)
there is some "flux" leakage.  And when in the presence of other magnetic field
sources (electric currents) the magnetization of the material can change, even
just a little, to give more flux leakage out of the material.  So now you do have
(possibly weak) magnetic-magnetic field interaction.  Not (idealized) VACE
interaction.

Bob Gray

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Jul 24 10:29:42 1999
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From: knuke@LCIA.COM (Michael T Huffman)
Subject: BaFe Magnet Source
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 13:35:06 -0400
Message-ID: <19990724173506953.AAA252@mail.lcia.com@lizard>
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Ola!

I was away from the computer for a couple weeks, and then had some heat
related computer problems after that.  I found this in my mailbox when I
returned, and finally am able to post it.  I'm not sure who asked for the
info or which group that it came from, so I'm posting it to both the FreeNRG
Group and the Vortex Group on the off chance that it came from there.

______________________________________

Hello Mr. M.T. Huffman,

I ran just accidentally in your website and found it very interesting.
So, I came across somebody was looking for barium ferrite magnets.
That person called a number in Holland and he didn't understand the
Dutch recorded message, so I tried that number too.
Dutch is my motherlanguage, so it was easy for me to find out that their
number has changed.
The company name is Bakker Magnetics, old # 0031-499-474550
new #   0031-40-2678678,   fax 0031-40-2678899

A lady told me they do sell barium ferrite magnets.....

If I can help in any way, please send an e-mail to me.

Sincerely,

Han vriezen,
Holland.
e-mail:   vriezen@wxs.nl

_________________________________

Knuke



Michael T. Huffman
Huffman Technology Company
1121 Dustin Drive
The Villages, Florida 32159
(352)259-1276
knuke@LCIA.COM
http://www.aa.net/~knuke/index.htm

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Jul 24 16:31:24 1999
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From: "Harvey Norris" <tesla4@excite.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: MRA Info
Message-Id: <932859032.10353.220@excite.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 16:30:32 PDT
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While searching  or what they call surfing the net for Searls
web page I came across the following Sumeria page which has
an extensive free energy file.
http://www.trufax.org/menu/energy.html

Here is a pasting from  MRA, an introduction
"Matter=Energy. To change matter, change the energy. Creation of a magnet is
achieved by a process which causes the matter to be both expanded and
compressed at the same time, with the result that a magnet is in a constant
state of collapse. This is why magnets attract material with similar lattice
structures, as they attempt to fill the energy void which created them. The
"domains" of the magnet are fixed after the process of magnetisation, and
the only way to extract electrical energy is to physically spin a coil
relative to a magnet. 

However, it is also possible to induce virtual rotation by applying the
resonant frequency of the magnet, which causes the lattices and the domains
to vibrate. However, the power required to do this is greater than the
energy released by the virtual rotation. Therefore it is necessary to
increase the vibration without using excessive current. 

The piezo has a virtually inexhaustible supply of free electrons, and it
releases them when it is stressed. Using the piezo in series with the
primary coil will almost eliminate primary current, because it is voltage
which stresses the piezo, not current. Therefore the piezo can be stressed
with very little actual power, and provide the current to the primary coil
which vibrates the domains of the magnet. 

The piezo is the catalyst for the circulating current with the primary coil.
The circulating current is additive, and this is the reason for the high
potentials developed across both the piezo and the primary coil. 

It is at this point that resonance becomes important. You must have three
octaves of separation between the magnet resonant frequency and the signal
supplied to the piezo. The circulating current is rich in harmonics, and
this is necessary for the operation of the circuit. "

This becomes interesting in light of the Sept 19 Colorado Springs Note
referance to  the extra coil best functioning at 3/4 wavelength for obvious
reasons. The extra coil exists in the space of the tightly coupled
secondary
in which its length of wire is calculated by 1/4 wavelength. This then
implies 
that the extra coil is functioning as a third harmonic, or three times the 
frequency of the outer secondary. HDN




________________________________________________________________
Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com
Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Jul 24 22:03:09 1999
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From: Dave Dameron <ddameron@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: VACE FE motor??
In-Reply-To: <379858B7.C5561C3B@servtech.com>
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 <3.0.6.16.19990613224646.1fffd1c0@earthlink.net>
 <3.0.6.16.19990614101318.239fd990@earthlink.net>
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Hi Bob and all,
At 07:57 AM 7/23/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>I'll think on what you have said...
>
>I have started to wonder if the Marinov (and other effects) is due to
>induced field leakage out of the magnets.  Since there is no such thing
>as an ideal magnet loop (with *all* its magnetic field only inside the
material)
>there is some "flux" leakage.

It seems that this could be tested by introducing leakage flux, maybe as
simple as shims between the magnets and keepers? Do you have an explanation
on how it is supposed to run, an interaction between the currents in the
ring and the A field of the toroid? Have you modeled it (or know what
formula to use) similarly to than of your "circle of VACE" elements?
-Dave

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sun Jul 25 10:04:14 1999
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	 <3.0.6.16.19990614101318.239fd990@earthlink.net>
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Dave Dameron wrote:

> Hi Bob and all,
> At 07:57 AM 7/23/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >I'll think on what you have said...
> >
> >I have started to wonder if the Marinov (and other effects) is due to
> >induced field leakage out of the magnets.  Since there is no such thing
> >as an ideal magnet loop (with *all* its magnetic field only inside the
> material)
> >there is some "flux" leakage.
>
> It seems that this could be tested by introducing leakage flux, maybe as
> simple as shims between the magnets and keepers? Do you have an explanation
> on how it is supposed to run, an interaction between the currents in the
> ring and the A field of the toroid? Have you modeled it (or know what
> formula to use) similarly to than of your "circle of VACE" elements?
> -Dave

At the time I learned about the Marinov motor, I was studying Graneau's book
"Newtonian Electrodynamics."  So, I was learning about Ampere's force
equation and about Ampere current elements.  The article I read
about the Marinov motor, if I rememeber correctly, claimed that the current
ring rotation was not caused by a magnetic interaction.  So I thought I'd
see what would happen if I used Ampere's force equation on the
Marinov motor.  I replaced the center magnetic loop with an "Ampere current
element"  and did the analysis.  It worked out (qualitatively, of course.)
There
was a net torque on the current carrying loop.

So, my analysis of the Marinov motor doesn't invovle the vector potentail A,
unless the vector potentail interactions are included in Ampere's force
equation.

Bob Gray




From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 26 06:10:33 1999
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Subject: Newman Demo
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Joe Newman demoed the solar panel setup today, Sunday July 25, here in
Tempe, Az. I thought he did the best presentation yet, and I have seen him
three times before today.  We saw six solar panels (~18V x .32A ea.)
connected in parallel that, on a slightly overcast day in Az, could barely
turn over a 1/14Hp Grangier motor nor the infamous MinneKota trolling motor.

He first used the Grainger motor and a 12 volt "car" battery, using a belt
with a pulley between each shaft, to determine a quantity of power needed to
overcome the static losses of the big motor.

Then, connected in series, the solar panels made the Newman Motor turn at
~45 rpm. Running on the solar panels, he then used a prony brake set-up to
determine a usable amount of power available at the shaft of the big motor.

The meters for the input power indicated only about half that of the total
of the demonstrated losses plus available power.  I felt he proved his point
and concept to the sixty-some people there (many from the energy conference
here this weekend). I asked a question, "how well do the solar panels hold
up to the back spikes?". He answered that the panels in the sun run pretty
hot, anyway, and he has run them for "a long time" and determined no
degradation in the efficiency of the panels. I took this as good technical
information and nodded in smiling acknowledgment.

Understanding that the solar panels were not the real focus of the demo, I
still thought it gave a good hands-on example of one of the many
applications and sources of hydraulic pressure that can be used to run the
Motor.

He then made an offer that, if and when 400 people would pledge 3500 dollars
each, and, when all pledges are verified by a bank, he could get the million
dollars he needs to start a factory here in Phoenix and start cranking out
these motors. The pledge included another 3500 dollars upon delivery.

People in the audience started asking questions, along the lines of, "just
what do we get for our $7000?" The delivered "system" was described as
having a battery pack, a Newman Motor two inches bigger than the one we saw
today (and have been seeing since last Sept.), and a generator. He felt
confident enough in the Motor to offer a handsome guarantee because he felt
that, in the long run, only a bearing could go bad.

A distributor person would come to your house and install the system in
short order. There would be a change-over switch at your electric panel, to
switch your house between the "grid" and the Motor. It would be big enough
to power a 2000 sq. ft. house. When asked, he acknowledged that that would
be about 10KW. He was asked about UL approval. He replied that, since it
doesn't connect to the house itself, it needs no UL approval. I believe him.
I think the FCC may be another problem, though.

Even before the inevitable questions of: what kind of generator?, how well
would it sync to the line frequency?, all this for $7000?, etc., I asked a
simple question:

"For the given motor size, how many volts worth of batteries will be needed
to achieve 10KW?". He said, "About 500 volts worth". I followed with, "How
long do you think the batteries will last?" He said, "Maybe about four
years."

Again, a technical answer that I could accept, we know the batteries can't
last forever. Now, please, somebody else who was there: if I'm lying I'm
dying, but he started sputtering at me, wagging his finger at me, and
calling me "one of them ......". He said he recognized me from other demos
and I was only here to poison these other minds, and said that I "really
pisses me off!" Stunned, I said, "fine, I have heard enough", and left.

I don't know what happened after that.

If two people in that audience who are reading this thought I was even close
to being out of line in any way with my questions or attitude, I will call
up Joe and apologize (it's a local call). I have only been trying to learn
as much about this technology as I can; I certainly can see the results and
possibilities, would like to think I possess at least some basic understandi
ngs of what Joe teaches, and had (have) no desire to discombobulate his demo
or his efforts.

Scott Boster



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 26 07:56:10 1999
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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 06:24:47
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From: Dave Dameron <ddameron@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: VACE FE motor??
In-Reply-To: <379B4868.86D66F24@servtech.com>
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 <3.0.6.16.19990614101318.239fd990@earthlink.net>
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Hi Bob and all,
At 01:24 PM 7/25/99 -0400, you wrote:

>At the time I learned about the Marinov motor, I was studying Graneau's book
>"Newtonian Electrodynamics."  So, I was learning about Ampere's force
>equation and about Ampere current elements.  The article I read
>about the Marinov motor, if I rememeber correctly, claimed that the current
>ring rotation was not caused by a magnetic interaction.  So I thought I'd
>see what would happen if I used Ampere's force equation on the
>Marinov motor.  I replaced the center magnetic loop with an "Ampere current
>element"  and did the analysis.  It worked out (qualitatively, of course.)
>There
>was a net torque on the current carrying loop.
>
>So, my analysis of the Marinov motor doesn't invovle the vector potentail A,
>unless the vector potentail interactions are included in Ampere's force
>equation.
>
Interesting. In your "VACE motor" calculations, the torque on the left side
is the same as the right (0-180 deg.). The force is opposite. If you
reverse the current elements on the left side, the net torque is zero. Of
course, if the reversed segment is from 90 to 270 deg, for example, there
can be some net torque.

If I place the "external" VACE at the center, (distance = -r), all elements
give zero torque, I assume that is because all force vectors are 90 deg.
from the "torque" vectors. That is why I was wondering about your Marinov
analysis, where does the torque come from, the finite size of the center
magnets?
-Dave

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 26 09:52:57 1999
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From: bpaddock@csonline.net (Bob Paddock)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Newman Demo
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 12:45:10 -0400
Organization: is mostly via piles
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>The meters for the input power indicated only about half that of the total
>of the demonstrated losses plus available power.

What kind of meter?  It makes a difference.  Is it a True-RMS
meter than can handle any type of arbitrary wave form and
arbitrary frequency?

On most meters if the pulse-width and/or frequency get
narrower/go up, then some meters may stop responding giving
the appearance of a lower power.

Alas most meters are only rated for sine waves at low
frequencies (read the manual that came with it).

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 26 14:06:18 1999
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----- Original Message -----
From: S. Boster <scott@spectrapure.com>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Monday, July 26, 1999 8:00 AM
Subject: Newman Demo

>
> A distributor person would come to your house and install the system in
> short order. There would be a change-over switch at your electric panel,
to
> switch your house between the "grid" and the Motor. It would be big enough
> to power a 2000 sq. ft. house. When asked, he acknowledged that that would
> be about 10KW. He was asked about UL approval. He replied that, since it
> doesn't connect to the house itself, it needs no UL approval. I believe
him.
> I think the FCC may be another problem, though.
>
*A distributor person would come to your house and install the system in
*short order. There would be a change-over switch at your electric panel, to
*switch your house between the "grid" and the Motor.

*He was asked about UL approval. He replied that, since it
*doesn't connect to the house itself,

If it don't connect to the house itself, then what is the meaning of the
preceeding paragraph in which a switch is installed to change from the grid
to his device ?
This does not make sense ??

*it needs no UL approval. I believe him.
No way. Local electrical codes will wash him out from the beginning.

*I think the FCC may be another problem, though.
Why? How is he classing the device? If you develope a battery you only need
approx (15) different Federal and State (depends on State)agency approvals
to get a battery to market. Don't understand the FCC unless his spark crap
is considered a transmission device.

> pisses me off!" Stunned, I said, "fine, I have heard enough", and left.
>

Well you should have left when he ask for money up front. If he has it he
don't need to beg for production funding.



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 26 14:26:51 1999
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>
> While searching  or what they call surfing the net for Searls
> web page I came across the following Sumeria page which has
> an extensive free energy file.
> http://www.trufax.org/menu/energy.html
> 

Thanks Harvey. Very Interesting page. The "Home Page" it refers back to is even more interesting.

SR


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 26 14:37:28 1999
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"S. Boster" schrieb:
> 
> Joe Newman demoed the solar panel setup today, Sunday July 25, here in
> Tempe, Az. I thought he did the best presentation yet, and I have seen him
> three times before today.  We saw six solar panels (~18V x .32A ea.)
> connected in parallel that, on a slightly overcast day in Az, could barely
> turn over a 1/14Hp Grangier motor nor the infamous MinneKota trolling motor.
> 
> He first used the Grainger motor and a 12 volt "car" battery, using a belt
> with a pulley between each shaft, to determine a quantity of power needed to
> overcome the static losses of the big motor.

Hi Scott,
how much power was this to turn the big Newman motor ?
12 Volts x X Ampere ?How many Watts ?
At what RPM ? Also at 45 RPM ?


> 
> Then, connected in series, the solar panels made the Newman Motor turn at
> ~45 rpm. Running on the solar panels, he then used a prony brake set-up to
> determine a usable amount of power available at the shaft of the big motor.

108 Volts DC did not even run it at 1 rev per second ?
RPM in idle state without prony brake ?

> 
> The meters for the input power indicated only about half that of the total
> of the demonstrated losses plus available power.  

Were these just DC meters ?
How was the input power circuit from the solar cells ?
Were there any low pass filter caps  ?
Was the input amperage jumping with every commutator break
or was it a steady value when the reading was done ?

> I felt he proved his point
> and concept to the sixty-some people there (many from the energy conference
> here this weekend). I asked a question, "how well do the solar panels hold
> up to the back spikes?". He answered that the panels in the sun run pretty
> hot, anyway, and he has run them for "a long time" and determined no
> degradation in the efficiency of the panels. I took this as good technical
> information and nodded in smiling acknowledgment.

I see, maybe his big caps from the motor be used before will not let
get spikes to the solar cells.

> 
> Understanding that the solar panels were not the real focus of the demo, I
> still thought it gave a good hands-on example of one of the many
> applications and sources of hydraulic pressure that can be used to run the
> Motor.
> 
> He then made an offer that, if and when 400 people would pledge 3500 dollars
> each, and, when all pledges are verified by a bank, he could get the million
> dollars he needs to start a factory here in Phoenix and start cranking out
> these motors. The pledge included another 3500 dollars upon delivery.
> 
> People in the audience started asking questions, along the lines of, "just
> what do we get for our $7000?" The delivered "system" was described as
> having a battery pack, a Newman Motor two inches bigger than the one we saw
> today (and have been seeing since last Sept.), and a generator. He felt
> confident enough in the Motor to offer a handsome guarantee because he felt
> that, in the long run, only a bearing could go bad.

Did he say, what kind of AC generator would be provided for this price ?

> 
> A distributor person would come to your house and install the system in
> short order. There would be a change-over switch at your electric panel, to
> switch your house between the "grid" and the Motor. It would be big enough
> to power a 2000 sq. ft. house. When asked, he acknowledged that that would
> be about 10KW. He was asked about UL approval. He replied that, since it
> doesn't connect to the house itself, it needs no UL approval. I believe him.
> I think the FCC may be another problem, though.

Did he show any RF output power with it ?
Did he have any neon bulbs connected across the motor coils ?

> 
> Even before the inevitable questions of: what kind of generator?, how well
> would it sync to the line frequency?, all this for $7000?, etc., I asked a
> simple question:
> 
> "For the given motor size, how many volts worth of batteries will be needed
> to achieve 10KW?". He said, "About 500 volts worth". 

This could be incorrect.

As you would need 3600 RPM for a normal US 120 Volts 60 Hz AC generator,
you would at least need:
8640 Volts !

This is an easy to calculate value:

6 x 18 Volts DC = 108 Volts DC (solar panel voltage)
45 RPM at 108 Volts equals
8640 Volts DC at 3600 RPM.
As all Newman motors so far have a linear dependance of
RPM versus supply voltage you can easily calculate the needed
voltage !

It all depends if the RPM is geared up or not !
Maybe he will just run it at 600 RPM and gear it up 
by factor of 6 for 3600 RPM ?


>I followed with, "How
> long do you think the batteries will last?" He said, "Maybe about four
> years."

Hmm, this must be tested in advance before sales will start-.....
If batteries will fail before this time period, customers
will be very "unsatisfied"
And how much will a battery pack cost after this 4 years time period ?
Will it be much more than the 10 KWatts x days delivered in this time
period would have costed via normal Grid power supply ?


> 
> Again, a technical answer that I could accept, we know the batteries can't
> last forever. Now, please, somebody else who was there: if I'm lying I'm
> dying, but he started sputtering at me, wagging his finger at me, and
> calling me "one of them ......". He said he recognized me from other demos
> and I was only here to poison these other minds, and said that I "really
> pisses me off!" Stunned, I said, "fine, I have heard enough", and left.

Well you should have been cooler. Why did you leave ?
You could have said: "Yes, I am the devil and I want to see your motor
"smoke"...
with a big grin in your face...

> 
> I don't know what happened after that.
> 
> If two people in that audience who are reading this thought I was even close
> to being out of line in any way with my questions or attitude, I will call
> up Joe and apologize (it's a local call). I have only been trying to learn
> as much about this technology as I can; I certainly can see the results and
> possibilities, would like to think I possess at least some basic understandi
> ngs of what Joe teaches, and had (have) no desire to discombobulate his demo
> or his efforts.

Well, the demo was probably interesting to see, but the real evidence
about a
real usable 10 KWatts power supply was probably again not brought up.

Again there were probably no answers about 
1. a motor data sheet
2. Correct value of Voltage supply for 10 KWatts 3600 RPM AC generator
3. problem of replacing the batteries and the cost of replacing them
4. problem of using batteries at all, batteries are pretty much
environment toxic !
5. Demo of motor loss power at 45 RPM could be wrong, cause you dont
know what meters
were used which measured input current from the solar cells and if this
was pure DC
or chopped DC.
6. If the motor was really about 300 to 400 % efficient in mechanical
output as Newman claims,
it would be easy to connect a 90 % efficient DC generator and let the
whole
unit run in a self powering loop !

It seems Newman promises again a "pink sky" and he will not be able to
hold his promises.

If I am wrong, please let me know.

Regards, Stefan.

> 
> Scott Boster

--
Hartmann Multimedia Service, 
Dipl. In. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  info@ccard.net
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 26 15:06:37 1999
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		 <3.0.6.16.19990613224646.1fffd1c0@earthlink.net>
		 <3.0.6.16.19990614101318.239fd990@earthlink.net>
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		 <3.0.6.16.19990721211655.23bfb72a@earthlink.net> <3.0.6.16.19990722201617.23d7cd36@earthlink.net> <379858B7.C5561C3B@servtech.com>
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anyone here anything about this?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 26 15:39:47 1999
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Don Adams wrote:
> 
> anyone here anything about this?

See:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=135775120+

or

http://www.sightings.com/ufo4/fly.htm

Cute hoax!

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 26 19:17:38 1999
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From: "S. Boster" <scott@spectrapure.com>
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Subject: Re: Newman Demo
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atglab,

Sorry, I deleted your response, I'll just try to re-cap.

The commercial generator is connected to the house's change-over switch. The
Motor is connected to the commercial generator through the shafts. No
electrical connection, no need for UL approval. The comment I made about the
FCC was only in reference to the noise the Motor might make, and how an
un-enlightened neighbor may not appreciate what's going on in your back
yard.

Scott

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 26 23:25:37 1999
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From: RBCorn2@aol.com
Message-ID: <c92cbc0a.24ceaa9b@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 02:24:27 EDT
Subject: DATAQ
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Anyone have the E-address for the FREE DATAQ aquesision board posted about a 
month ago.  I just got one and the software is very handy for slow (not 
audio) real time voltage testing.  Might even be usefull for V to ? 
measuring...ie MIDI?....
Rob

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Mon Jul 26 23:48:50 1999
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From: "David Callaghan" <DCallaghan@CallaghanSystems.Demon.Co.Uk>
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Scott

>Then, connected in series, the solar panels made the Newman Motor turn at
>~45 rpm. Running on the solar panels, he then used a prony brake set-up to
>determine a usable amount of power available at the shaft of the big motor.


What was the amount of usable power available at the motor shaft?  Was it
greater than 35W?
Can you give the approximate dimensions of the solar panels?

A quick glance in a catalogue shows that an average (cheap) 12 inch by 12
inch panel
produces 12V at 500mA (6W) of output power at full output.

Best regards

David Callaghan


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Jul 27 01:30:18 1999
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why dose it need batteries???? and where can I get a battery that will last 
that long with a load like that???
unless he is just using the nuke batteries and the motor is a fraud???


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Jul 27 06:34:09 1999
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Stefan Hartmann wrote:

> "S. Boster" schrieb:
> >
> > Joe Newman demoed the solar panel setup today, Sunday July 25, here in
> > Tempe, Az. I thought he did the best presentation yet, and I have seen him
> > three times before today.  We saw six solar panels (~18V x .32A ea.)
> >

 Yet another red herring! It doesn't matter what Joe powers the motor from..the
REAL ISSUE is, as Stefan has so properly pointed out, is a demonstration of the
complete system pulling the full 10KW load!

>
> Well, the demo was probably interesting to see, but the real evidence
> about a
> real usable 10 KWatts power supply was probably again not brought up.
>
> Again there were probably no answers about
> 1. a motor data sheet
> 2. Correct value of Voltage supply for 10 KWatts 3600 RPM AC generator
> 3. problem of replacing the batteries and the cost of replacing them
> 4. problem of using batteries at all, batteries are pretty much
> environment toxic !
> 5. Demo of motor loss power at 45 RPM could be wrong, cause you dont
> know what meters
> were used which measured input current from the solar cells and if this
> was pure DC
> or chopped DC.
> 6. If the motor was really about 300 to 400 % efficient in mechanical
> output as Newman claims,
> it would be easy to connect a 90 % efficient DC generator and let the
> whole
> unit run in a self powering loop !
>
> It seems Newman promises again a "pink sky" and he will not be able to
> hold his promises.
>
> If I am wrong, please let me know.
>
> Regards, Stefan.

 NOT WRONG!  And here's another bit of wisdom; The whole issue of the
batteries could be easily laid to rest. There is a battery that can stand almost
INFINITE ABUSE, it's little known nowadays, it's called the Edison Cell. It
is based on sulphuric-acid and nickel metal.

 If Joe Newman were to hook up a bank of Edison Cells, which have fairly
high internal resistance, but last almost forever, he could then run whatever
voltage he needs to attain the 3600 RPM to drive a commercial generator,
and actually produce the required 10KW outpit needed to settle all claims
of OU operation. The Edison Cell can pass voltages in the 10,000 volt
range if properly designed (plate spacing) and unlike lead acid batteries, they
don't windup needing replacement after 4-5 years!

 Edison Cells hooked in series, to 300 or 500v powered the American Telegraph
systems, often for 20 years at a time without replacement or failure! They are
able to withstand tremendous abuse in the form of spiked-recharge currents, or
even reverse current, without exploding. I have seen Edison Cells that have been
left idle and DRY, for up to 50 years refilled with electrolyte and put back into
real
service! At one time most of the Railroad signaling used these as backups. They
won't hold a charge for long once disconnected, due to their high internal
resistance
but they recharge quickly, and won't clog with sulphides/sulphates.

 If Joe Newman were able to demonstrate a FULLY-functional 10kw system, with
self-recharge, he wouldn't be able to count the ORDERS fast enough to keep up! ;)

 Cheers!

      Erik

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Tue Jul 27 14:41:53 1999
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Hi All,

what is the most efficient way to convert
mechanical pressure into electrical power ?

Is the piezo effect the most efficient way or
are there any other forms of mechanical pressure  to
electricity convertes ?
I mean pressing 2 plates together and having different pressure
on them. (differential pressure)
If piezo effect is the most efficient,
which material is the best used ?

What kind of efficiency do we talk about ?
More than 25 % ?

Best regards, Stefan.

--
Hartmann Multimedia Service, 
Dipl. In. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  info@ccard.net
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 28 03:14:06 1999
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-------- Original Message --------
Betreff: Re: Newman's solar panel tests
Datum: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:01:27 -0500
Von: Ted Gondert <vcrepair@teleweb.net>
An: harti@harti.com


I see Evan Soule' forwarded test results from Newman and his solar panel 
tests. Too bad Joe made a few mistakes in his calculations. 
Here is my corrections to Newman's "Solar Panel Tests":

"My 400-pound Motor includes a 140-pound rotary which turns
at 50rpm  when  a torque  device having a 5 pound load is
connected via a 12 inch diameter pulley.

When connected  in series,  the 6 solar panels produce 104
volts and .15 amps or 15.6 watts.

Note:
[Equation for horsepower:   2 (times) pi (times) weight in
foot pounds  (times)  rpm  (divided by)  33,000   (equals)
horsepower;  then  multiply  that  quantity (times) 746 to
convert to watts],thus:

6.28 X 5 lbs  =  31.4 X 50 rpm  =  1570 divided by 33000 =
.047 H.P. X 746  =  35.06  watts  output  on the  shaft of
my Motor."

*******************************************************
>>>(ERRORS) THE ABOVE FORMULA IS MISAPPLIED, SHOULD BE: pi 
(times) PULLEY DIAMETER (in feet) (times) FORCE ON PULLEY 
(times) RPM (divided by) 33,000 (equals) HORSEPOWER. ONE 
HP = 746 watts. SO: 3.14 X 5 lbs X 1 foot X 50 rpm = 785 
divided by 33000 = .024 hp X 746 = 17.75 watts

EACH SOLAR PANEL PRODUCES 104/6 = 17.33 volts X 0.15 amp
= 2.6 watts each <<<

SOME MORE FROM NEWMANS "SOLAR TEST RESULTS"
"Note:
The 35 watts produced  on my Motor's shaft with an applied
load,  plus  the  30  watts  of friction losses at 50 rpm,
demonstrates that my Motor was producing 65 watts of power
and caused the six solar  panels  (connected in series) to
efficiently  produce  15.6 watts.   Therefore,  this  test
demonstrated that my Motor has a  production efficiency of
at least FOUR HUNDRED AND SIXTEEN PERCENT (416%)!"

"[65 watts divided by 15.6 watts = 416%]"

"Note:
The manufacturer's instruction booklet regarding the solar
panels indicates that the SHORT CIRCUIT CURRENT  per solar
panel is a maximum of .28 amps."

"Note:
.28 amps X 6 panels in parallel = 1.68 amps, maximum SHORT
CIRCUIT  CURRENT  and  the conventional 1/14 H.P. Grainger
magnetic motor is shown to be drawing 1.7 amp."

"Fact:   If you short out a battery,  you will also see the
battery voltage fall drastically.   
That is  the reason why the  voltage on  the  conventional
1/14 H.P. Grainger  magnetic motor  is only 2.4 volts  and
the voltage on the Newman Motor is 104 volts."

******************************************************************
>>(ERRORS) JOE NEWMAN SHOULD COMPARE THE VOLTAGE FOR ONE 
SOLAR PANEL, NOT SIX SOLAR PANELS IN SERIES. SO: 17.3 volts
0.15 amps = 2.6 watts CONNECTED TO NEWMAN MOTOR COMPARED TO 
2.4 volt .28 amps = .67 watts CONNECTED TO GRAINGER MOTOR.

If JOSEPH NEWMAN HAD USED HIGHER VOLTAGE RATED GRAINGER MOTOR 
IT WOULD WORK BETTER WITH SOLAR PANELS. MOTORS ARE NOT LINEAR 
RESISTANCE BUT USING 2.4 volts 1.7 amps = 4 watts COMPARED TO  
1/14 hp = 53.3 watts would be 53.3/4 = 13.32, sqrt = 3.64
times the voltage and current = 8.74 volts and 6.19 amps for 
full power. BUT MOTOR IS PROBABLY RATED FOR 12 VOLTS 5 AMPS 
FOR RATED LOAD. 120 VOLT MOTOR WOULD ONLY NEED 0.5 AMPS.

NOTE: THE NEWMAN MOTOR ONLY PRODUCES 17.75 watts at 104 volts 
INPUT AND WEIGHS 400 lbs. SO HOW BIG A MOTOR AND WHAT VOLTAGE 
IS REQUIRED TO PRODUCE 10KW TO POWER YOUR HOME?

(THE 17.75 WATTS OUTPUT FROM 15.6 WATT INPUT COULD BE DUE TO MEASURE-
MENT ERROR. IF NEWMAN'S MOTOR TRULY PRODUCED 35 WATTS OUTPUT TORQUE
X RPM WITH ONLY 15.6 WATTS INPUT THAN A GENERATOR CONNECTED TO 
PULLEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO POWER THE NEWMAN MOTOR WITH NO EXTERNAL 
POWER REQUIRED.)  

Ted Gondert

PS. I called Joe Newman and tried to explain this too him but he
wouldn't
listen. I believe Joe made the same mistake when testing the Minn KOtta 
motor using a 5 inch diameter pulley. Joe just measures the force on the 
pulley but forgets to factor in the RADIUS of pulley compared to ONE
FOOT 
to get torque in LB/FT. So his one foot diameter pulley is 1/2 foot
radius. 
I will write explanation and snail mail it to Joe Newman, since Evan
Soule'
only reads email to "josephnewman@earthlink.net" and Evan deletes my
email.

BTW, did you see Joe's 7/2/99 post about why production hasn't started 
because not enough "investors" have sent in $3500 deposits? Too bad 
Joe doesn't have a working PROTOTYPE YET!
How can he expect to get production started?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 28 04:21:22 1999
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 13:21:30 +0200
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Subject: Sandy Kidd Gyroscopic levitator movie posted !
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Hi All,

I got a new movie in RealVideo(G2)-format from
"Kai Hackemesser" <kaha@gmx.de>

about the Sandy Kidd Gyroscopic levitator 
device.
It defies the 3rd Newton action-reactio law.

It can be seen at:
http://mars.spaceports.com/~over/movies/kiddgyro.ram
in streaming mode,
otherwise you can also download it at:

http://mars.spaceports.com/~over/movies/kiddgyro.rm

or from:

http://www.wal3.de/temp/Kreiselmaschine.rm

You need the free realVideo G2 player from
www.real.com
It is about 3.3 MB big and it is a 80 KBits/sec stream,
so better download it before playing, if you dont have
a 2 B-channel ISDN or DSL or cable modem Internet access at least.

Enjoy !

Regards, Stefan.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 28 05:11:26 1999
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To all list members:

Stefan and Ted have hit the nail on the head.
Several people have privately emailed me with many similar comments.  I would like to give them
special thanks for their input.  I have posted all their comments on one site at:

http://www.syc.org/e/skeptic/new_sol.htm

Mr. Newman obviously has no concept of  impedance matching (or if he does, he has deliberately
omitted such information to "fool" the public with his test results.).  As I said in my statement
approximately one year ago, Joe Newman knows nothing about electric motors.

Regards,

Norm Biss
Erie, Pa.
7-28-99

normpems@erie.net






Stefan Hartmann wrote:

> -------- Original Message --------
> Betreff: Re: Newman's solar panel tests
> Datum: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:01:27 -0500
> Von: Ted Gondert <vcrepair@teleweb.net>
> An: harti@harti.com
>
> I see Evan Soule' forwarded test results from Newman and his solar panel
> tests. Too bad Joe made a few mistakes in his calculations.
> Here is my corrections to Newman's "Solar Panel Tests":
>
> "My 400-pound Motor includes a 140-pound rotary which turns
> at 50rpm  when  a torque  device having a 5 pound load is
> connected via a 12 inch diameter pulley.
>
> When connected  in series,  the 6 solar panels produce 104
> volts and .15 amps or 15.6 watts.
>
> Note:
> [Equation for horsepower:   2 (times) pi (times) weight in
> foot pounds  (times)  rpm  (divided by)  33,000   (equals)
> horsepower;  then  multiply  that  quantity (times) 746 to
> convert to watts],thus:
>
> 6.28 X 5 lbs  =  31.4 X 50 rpm  =  1570 divided by 33000 =
> .047 H.P. X 746  =  35.06  watts  output  on the  shaft of
> my Motor."
>
> *******************************************************
> >>>(ERRORS) THE ABOVE FORMULA IS MISAPPLIED, SHOULD BE: pi
> (times) PULLEY DIAMETER (in feet) (times) FORCE ON PULLEY
> (times) RPM (divided by) 33,000 (equals) HORSEPOWER. ONE
> HP = 746 watts. SO: 3.14 X 5 lbs X 1 foot X 50 rpm = 785
> divided by 33000 = .024 hp X 746 = 17.75 watts
>
> EACH SOLAR PANEL PRODUCES 104/6 = 17.33 volts X 0.15 amp
> = 2.6 watts each <<<
>
> SOME MORE FROM NEWMANS "SOLAR TEST RESULTS"
> "Note:
> The 35 watts produced  on my Motor's shaft with an applied
> load,  plus  the  30  watts  of friction losses at 50 rpm,
> demonstrates that my Motor was producing 65 watts of power
> and caused the six solar  panels  (connected in series) to
> efficiently  produce  15.6 watts.   Therefore,  this  test
> demonstrated that my Motor has a  production efficiency of
> at least FOUR HUNDRED AND SIXTEEN PERCENT (416%)!"
>
> "[65 watts divided by 15.6 watts = 416%]"
>
> "Note:
> The manufacturer's instruction booklet regarding the solar
> panels indicates that the SHORT CIRCUIT CURRENT  per solar
> panel is a maximum of .28 amps."
>
> "Note:
> .28 amps X 6 panels in parallel = 1.68 amps, maximum SHORT
> CIRCUIT  CURRENT  and  the conventional 1/14 H.P. Grainger
> magnetic motor is shown to be drawing 1.7 amp."
>
> "Fact:   If you short out a battery,  you will also see the
> battery voltage fall drastically.
> That is  the reason why the  voltage on  the  conventional
> 1/14 H.P. Grainger  magnetic motor  is only 2.4 volts  and
> the voltage on the Newman Motor is 104 volts."
>
> ******************************************************************
> >>(ERRORS) JOE NEWMAN SHOULD COMPARE THE VOLTAGE FOR ONE
> SOLAR PANEL, NOT SIX SOLAR PANELS IN SERIES. SO: 17.3 volts
> 0.15 amps = 2.6 watts CONNECTED TO NEWMAN MOTOR COMPARED TO
> 2.4 volt .28 amps = .67 watts CONNECTED TO GRAINGER MOTOR.
>
> If JOSEPH NEWMAN HAD USED HIGHER VOLTAGE RATED GRAINGER MOTOR
> IT WOULD WORK BETTER WITH SOLAR PANELS. MOTORS ARE NOT LINEAR
> RESISTANCE BUT USING 2.4 volts 1.7 amps = 4 watts COMPARED TO
> 1/14 hp = 53.3 watts would be 53.3/4 = 13.32, sqrt = 3.64
> times the voltage and current = 8.74 volts and 6.19 amps for
> full power. BUT MOTOR IS PROBABLY RATED FOR 12 VOLTS 5 AMPS
> FOR RATED LOAD. 120 VOLT MOTOR WOULD ONLY NEED 0.5 AMPS.
>
> NOTE: THE NEWMAN MOTOR ONLY PRODUCES 17.75 watts at 104 volts
> INPUT AND WEIGHS 400 lbs. SO HOW BIG A MOTOR AND WHAT VOLTAGE
> IS REQUIRED TO PRODUCE 10KW TO POWER YOUR HOME?
>
> (THE 17.75 WATTS OUTPUT FROM 15.6 WATT INPUT COULD BE DUE TO MEASURE-
> MENT ERROR. IF NEWMAN'S MOTOR TRULY PRODUCED 35 WATTS OUTPUT TORQUE
> X RPM WITH ONLY 15.6 WATTS INPUT THAN A GENERATOR CONNECTED TO
> PULLEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO POWER THE NEWMAN MOTOR WITH NO EXTERNAL
> POWER REQUIRED.)
>
> Ted Gondert
>
> PS. I called Joe Newman and tried to explain this too him but he
> wouldn't
> listen. I believe Joe made the same mistake when testing the Minn KOtta
> motor using a 5 inch diameter pulley. Joe just measures the force on the
> pulley but forgets to factor in the RADIUS of pulley compared to ONE
> FOOT
> to get torque in LB/FT. So his one foot diameter pulley is 1/2 foot
> radius.
> I will write explanation and snail mail it to Joe Newman, since Evan
> Soule'
> only reads email to "josephnewman@earthlink.net" and Evan deletes my
> email.
>
> BTW, did you see Joe's 7/2/99 post about why production hasn't started
> because not enough "investors" have sent in $3500 deposits? Too bad
> Joe doesn't have a working PROTOTYPE YET!
> How can he expect to get production started?

--------------4732B274EE0C8084FE8FC2F2
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
To all list members:
<p>Stefan and Ted have hit the nail on the head.
<br>Several people have privately emailed me with many similar comments.&nbsp;
I would like to give them special thanks for their input.&nbsp; I have
posted all their comments on one site at:
<p><font color="#3333FF"><A HREF="http://www.syc.org/e/skeptic/new_sol.htm">http://www.syc.org/e/skeptic/new_sol.htm</A></font><font color="#3333FF"></font>
<p><font color="#000000">Mr. Newman obviously has no concept of&nbsp; impedance
matching (or if he does, he has deliberately omitted such information to
"fool" the public with his test results.).&nbsp; As I said in my statement
approximately one year ago, Joe Newman knows nothing about electric motors.</font><font color="#000000"></font>
<p><font color="#000000">Regards,</font><font color="#000000"></font>
<p><font color="#000000">Norm Biss</font>
<br><font color="#000000">Erie, Pa.</font>
<br><font color="#000000">7-28-99</font><font color="#000000"></font>
<p><font color="#3333FF">normpems@erie.net</font><font color="#000000"></font>
<br><font color="#000000"></font>&nbsp;
<br><font color="#3333FF"></font>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;
<br>&nbsp;
<p>Stefan Hartmann wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>-------- Original Message --------
<br>Betreff: Re: Newman's solar panel tests
<br>Datum: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:01:27 -0500
<br>Von: Ted Gondert &lt;vcrepair@teleweb.net>
<br>An: harti@harti.com
<p>I see Evan Soule' forwarded test results from Newman and his solar panel
<br>tests. Too bad Joe made a few mistakes in his calculations.
<br>Here is my corrections to Newman's "Solar Panel Tests":
<p>"My 400-pound Motor includes a 140-pound rotary which turns
<br>at 50rpm&nbsp; when&nbsp; a torque&nbsp; device having a 5 pound load
is
<br>connected via a 12 inch diameter pulley.
<p>When connected&nbsp; in series,&nbsp; the 6 solar panels produce 104
<br>volts and .15 amps or 15.6 watts.
<p>Note:
<br>[Equation for horsepower:&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 (times) pi (times) weight in
<br>foot pounds&nbsp; (times)&nbsp; rpm&nbsp; (divided by)&nbsp; 33,000&nbsp;&nbsp;
(equals)
<br>horsepower;&nbsp; then&nbsp; multiply&nbsp; that&nbsp; quantity (times)
746 to
<br>convert to watts],thus:
<p>6.28 X 5 lbs&nbsp; =&nbsp; 31.4 X 50 rpm&nbsp; =&nbsp; 1570 divided
by 33000 =
<br>.047 H.P. X 746&nbsp; =&nbsp; 35.06&nbsp; watts&nbsp; output&nbsp;
on the&nbsp; shaft of
<br>my Motor."
<p>*******************************************************
<br>>>>(ERRORS) THE ABOVE FORMULA IS MISAPPLIED, SHOULD BE: pi
<br>(times) PULLEY DIAMETER (in feet) (times) FORCE ON PULLEY
<br>(times) RPM (divided by) 33,000 (equals) HORSEPOWER. ONE
<br>HP = 746 watts. SO: 3.14 X 5 lbs X 1 foot X 50 rpm = 785
<br>divided by 33000 = .024 hp X 746 = 17.75 watts
<p>EACH SOLAR PANEL PRODUCES 104/6 = 17.33 volts X 0.15 amp
<br>= 2.6 watts each &lt;&lt;&lt;
<p>SOME MORE FROM NEWMANS "SOLAR TEST RESULTS"
<br>"Note:
<br>The 35 watts produced&nbsp; on my Motor's shaft with an applied
<br>load,&nbsp; plus&nbsp; the&nbsp; 30&nbsp; watts&nbsp; of friction losses
at 50 rpm,
<br>demonstrates that my Motor was producing 65 watts of power
<br>and caused the six solar&nbsp; panels&nbsp; (connected in series) to
<br>efficiently&nbsp; produce&nbsp; 15.6 watts.&nbsp;&nbsp; Therefore,&nbsp;
this&nbsp; test
<br>demonstrated that my Motor has a&nbsp; production efficiency of
<br>at least FOUR HUNDRED AND SIXTEEN PERCENT (416%)!"
<p>"[65 watts divided by 15.6 watts = 416%]"
<p>"Note:
<br>The manufacturer's instruction booklet regarding the solar
<br>panels indicates that the SHORT CIRCUIT CURRENT&nbsp; per solar
<br>panel is a maximum of .28 amps."
<p>"Note:
<br>.28 amps X 6 panels in parallel = 1.68 amps, maximum SHORT
<br>CIRCUIT&nbsp; CURRENT&nbsp; and&nbsp; the conventional 1/14 H.P. Grainger
<br>magnetic motor is shown to be drawing 1.7 amp."
<p>"Fact:&nbsp;&nbsp; If you short out a battery,&nbsp; you will also see
the
<br>battery voltage fall drastically.
<br>That is&nbsp; the reason why the&nbsp; voltage on&nbsp; the&nbsp; conventional
<br>1/14 H.P. Grainger&nbsp; magnetic motor&nbsp; is only 2.4 volts&nbsp;
and
<br>the voltage on the Newman Motor is 104 volts."
<p>******************************************************************
<br>>>(ERRORS) JOE NEWMAN SHOULD COMPARE THE VOLTAGE FOR ONE
<br>SOLAR PANEL, NOT SIX SOLAR PANELS IN SERIES. SO: 17.3 volts
<br>0.15 amps = 2.6 watts CONNECTED TO NEWMAN MOTOR COMPARED TO
<br>2.4 volt .28 amps = .67 watts CONNECTED TO GRAINGER MOTOR.
<p>If JOSEPH NEWMAN HAD USED HIGHER VOLTAGE RATED GRAINGER MOTOR
<br>IT WOULD WORK BETTER WITH SOLAR PANELS. MOTORS ARE NOT LINEAR
<br>RESISTANCE BUT USING 2.4 volts 1.7 amps = 4 watts COMPARED TO
<br>1/14 hp = 53.3 watts would be 53.3/4 = 13.32, sqrt = 3.64
<br>times the voltage and current = 8.74 volts and 6.19 amps for
<br>full power. BUT MOTOR IS PROBABLY RATED FOR 12 VOLTS 5 AMPS
<br>FOR RATED LOAD. 120 VOLT MOTOR WOULD ONLY NEED 0.5 AMPS.
<p>NOTE: THE NEWMAN MOTOR ONLY PRODUCES 17.75 watts at 104 volts
<br>INPUT AND WEIGHS 400 lbs. SO HOW BIG A MOTOR AND WHAT VOLTAGE
<br>IS REQUIRED TO PRODUCE 10KW TO POWER YOUR HOME?
<p>(THE 17.75 WATTS OUTPUT FROM 15.6 WATT INPUT COULD BE DUE TO MEASURE-
<br>MENT ERROR. IF NEWMAN'S MOTOR TRULY PRODUCED 35 WATTS OUTPUT TORQUE
<br>X RPM WITH ONLY 15.6 WATTS INPUT THAN A GENERATOR CONNECTED TO
<br>PULLEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO POWER THE NEWMAN MOTOR WITH NO EXTERNAL
<br>POWER REQUIRED.)
<p>Ted Gondert
<p>PS. I called Joe Newman and tried to explain this too him but he
<br>wouldn't
<br>listen. I believe Joe made the same mistake when testing the Minn KOtta
<br>motor using a 5 inch diameter pulley. Joe just measures the force on
the
<br>pulley but forgets to factor in the RADIUS of pulley compared to ONE
<br>FOOT
<br>to get torque in LB/FT. So his one foot diameter pulley is 1/2 foot
<br>radius.
<br>I will write explanation and snail mail it to Joe Newman, since Evan
<br>Soule'
<br>only reads email to "josephnewman@earthlink.net" and Evan deletes my
<br>email.
<p>BTW, did you see Joe's 7/2/99 post about why production hasn't started
<br>because not enough "investors" have sent in $3500 deposits? Too bad
<br>Joe doesn't have a working PROTOTYPE YET!
<br>How can he expect to get production started?</blockquote>
</html>

--------------4732B274EE0C8084FE8FC2F2--

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 28 05:12:42 1999
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Hi Stefan and All, 

Okay, we will tell you the science of what Tony and I are getting up to
(Not the nitty gritty). I did some analysis of his setup and applied
Newtonian Mechanics. The analysis I show you here is for a near zero
reactive propulsion system.  Newton's Law seems to contadict itself. The
URL is

http://www.city.ac.uk/~remi/gyros/CompMass.htm
Any trouble accessing this, let me know. Any comments please email.

No, Sandy Kidd is not nutballs. I've seen Tony's system working.
To quote Sir Arthur Eddington and bring him up to date and less arrogant:

'Don't believe any slight effect until you have theory BUT do believe any
effect if massive and theory can't explain it.'

(He said don't believe any experiment until you have theory).
Remi.

 On Wed, 28 Jul 1999,
Stefan Hartmann wrote:

> Hi All,
> 
> I got a new movie in RealVideo(G2)-format from
> "Kai Hackemesser" <kaha@gmx.de>
> 
> about the Sandy Kidd Gyroscopic levitator 
> device.
> It defies the 3rd Newton action-reactio law.
> 
> It can be seen at:
> http://mars.spaceports.com/~over/movies/kiddgyro.ram
> in streaming mode,
> otherwise you can also download it at:
> 
> http://mars.spaceports.com/~over/movies/kiddgyro.rm
> 
> or from:
> 
> http://www.wal3.de/temp/Kreiselmaschine.rm
> 
> You need the free realVideo G2 player from
> www.real.com
> It is about 3.3 MB big and it is a 80 KBits/sec stream,
> so better download it before playing, if you dont have
> a 2 B-channel ISDN or DSL or cable modem Internet access at least.
> 
> Enjoy !
> 
> Regards, Stefan.
> 
> 

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 28 10:52:25 1999
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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:51:58 +0200
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I agree,
as long as Newman did
just sell videotapes and books
and did demos of the technology
I guess this was a valid income
to raise money to perfect the technology.

But now as he takes huge monies in advance
(3500 US$)
and also just calculates wrong the output
power from his motor in his latest press release
by a factor of 2 by mixing up the diameter versus the radius,
this seems to me already just as much as a fraud.

His motor as demoed had an output of around 20 Watts only and
he speaks about it as the "production motor" which will power
a home with 10 KWatts.
No way !

Why, does he not just produce smaller motors
and really show the overunity output by powering a real load ?

Because, if at all, the mechanical output is NOT as high
as Newman believes.

The REAL Newman effect is in my opinion the
arc at the commutator spark gap with its negative current
component, but Newman went into the wrong direction.
The mechanical output of the motor is simular to a normal DC motor
and could not reach much more than 100 %, if at all...

Regards, Stefan Hartmann.

Norm Biss schrieb:
> 
> To all list members:
> 
> Stefan and Ted have hit the nail on the head.
> Several people have privately emailed me with many similar comments.
> I would like to give them special thanks for their input.  I have
> posted all their comments on one site at:
> 
> http://www.syc.org/e/skeptic/new_sol.htm
> 
> Mr. Newman obviously has no concept of  impedance matching (or if he
> does, he has deliberately omitted such information to "fool" the
> public with his test results.).  As I said in my statement
> approximately one year ago, Joe Newman knows nothing about electric
> motors.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Norm Biss
> Erie, Pa.
> 7-28-99
> 
> normpems@erie.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stefan Hartmann wrote:
> 
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Betreff: Re: Newman's solar panel tests
> > Datum: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:01:27 -0500
> > Von: Ted Gondert <vcrepair@teleweb.net>
> > An: harti@harti.com
> >
> > I see Evan Soule' forwarded test results from Newman and his solar
> > panel
> > tests. Too bad Joe made a few mistakes in his calculations.
> > Here is my corrections to Newman's "Solar Panel Tests":
> >
> > "My 400-pound Motor includes a 140-pound rotary which turns
> > at 50rpm  when  a torque  device having a 5 pound load is
> > connected via a 12 inch diameter pulley.
> >
> > When connected  in series,  the 6 solar panels produce 104
> > volts and .15 amps or 15.6 watts.
> >
> > Note:
> > [Equation for horsepower:   2 (times) pi (times) weight in
> > foot pounds  (times)  rpm  (divided by)  33,000   (equals)
> > horsepower;  then  multiply  that  quantity (times) 746 to
> > convert to watts],thus:
> >
> > 6.28 X 5 lbs  =  31.4 X 50 rpm  =  1570 divided by 33000 =
> > .047 H.P. X 746  =  35.06  watts  output  on the  shaft of
> > my Motor."
> >
> > *******************************************************
> > >>>(ERRORS) THE ABOVE FORMULA IS MISAPPLIED, SHOULD BE: pi
> > (times) PULLEY DIAMETER (in feet) (times) FORCE ON PULLEY
> > (times) RPM (divided by) 33,000 (equals) HORSEPOWER. ONE
> > HP = 746 watts. SO: 3.14 X 5 lbs X 1 foot X 50 rpm = 785
> > divided by 33000 = .024 hp X 746 = 17.75 watts
> >
> > EACH SOLAR PANEL PRODUCES 104/6 = 17.33 volts X 0.15 amp
> > = 2.6 watts each <<<
> >
> > SOME MORE FROM NEWMANS "SOLAR TEST RESULTS"
> > "Note:
> > The 35 watts produced  on my Motor's shaft with an applied
> > load,  plus  the  30  watts  of friction losses at 50 rpm,
> > demonstrates that my Motor was producing 65 watts of power
> > and caused the six solar  panels  (connected in series) to
> > efficiently  produce  15.6 watts.   Therefore,  this  test
> > demonstrated that my Motor has a  production efficiency of
> > at least FOUR HUNDRED AND SIXTEEN PERCENT (416%)!"
> >
> > "[65 watts divided by 15.6 watts = 416%]"
> >
> > "Note:
> > The manufacturer's instruction booklet regarding the solar
> > panels indicates that the SHORT CIRCUIT CURRENT  per solar
> > panel is a maximum of .28 amps."
> >
> > "Note:
> > .28 amps X 6 panels in parallel = 1.68 amps, maximum SHORT
> > CIRCUIT  CURRENT  and  the conventional 1/14 H.P. Grainger
> > magnetic motor is shown to be drawing 1.7 amp."
> >
> > "Fact:   If you short out a battery,  you will also see the
> > battery voltage fall drastically.
> > That is  the reason why the  voltage on  the  conventional
> > 1/14 H.P. Grainger  magnetic motor  is only 2.4 volts  and
> > the voltage on the Newman Motor is 104 volts."
> >
> > ******************************************************************
> > >>(ERRORS) JOE NEWMAN SHOULD COMPARE THE VOLTAGE FOR ONE
> > SOLAR PANEL, NOT SIX SOLAR PANELS IN SERIES. SO: 17.3 volts
> > 0.15 amps = 2.6 watts CONNECTED TO NEWMAN MOTOR COMPARED TO
> > 2.4 volt .28 amps = .67 watts CONNECTED TO GRAINGER MOTOR.
> >
> > If JOSEPH NEWMAN HAD USED HIGHER VOLTAGE RATED GRAINGER MOTOR
> > IT WOULD WORK BETTER WITH SOLAR PANELS. MOTORS ARE NOT LINEAR
> > RESISTANCE BUT USING 2.4 volts 1.7 amps = 4 watts COMPARED TO
> > 1/14 hp = 53.3 watts would be 53.3/4 = 13.32, sqrt = 3.64
> > times the voltage and current = 8.74 volts and 6.19 amps for
> > full power. BUT MOTOR IS PROBABLY RATED FOR 12 VOLTS 5 AMPS
> > FOR RATED LOAD. 120 VOLT MOTOR WOULD ONLY NEED 0.5 AMPS.
> >
> > NOTE: THE NEWMAN MOTOR ONLY PRODUCES 17.75 watts at 104 volts
> > INPUT AND WEIGHS 400 lbs. SO HOW BIG A MOTOR AND WHAT VOLTAGE
> > IS REQUIRED TO PRODUCE 10KW TO POWER YOUR HOME?
> >
> > (THE 17.75 WATTS OUTPUT FROM 15.6 WATT INPUT COULD BE DUE TO
> > MEASURE-
> > MENT ERROR. IF NEWMAN'S MOTOR TRULY PRODUCED 35 WATTS OUTPUT TORQUE
> > X RPM WITH ONLY 15.6 WATTS INPUT THAN A GENERATOR CONNECTED TO
> > PULLEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO POWER THE NEWMAN MOTOR WITH NO EXTERNAL
> > POWER REQUIRED.)
> >
> > Ted Gondert
> >
> > PS. I called Joe Newman and tried to explain this too him but he
> > wouldn't
> > listen. I believe Joe made the same mistake when testing the Minn
> > KOtta
> > motor using a 5 inch diameter pulley. Joe just measures the force on
> > the
> > pulley but forgets to factor in the RADIUS of pulley compared to ONE
> >
> > FOOT
> > to get torque in LB/FT. So his one foot diameter pulley is 1/2 foot
> > radius.
> > I will write explanation and snail mail it to Joe Newman, since Evan
> >
> > Soule'
> > only reads email to "josephnewman@earthlink.net" and Evan deletes my
> >
> > email.
> >
> > BTW, did you see Joe's 7/2/99 post about why production hasn't
> > started
> > because not enough "investors" have sent in $3500 deposits? Too bad
> > Joe doesn't have a working PROTOTYPE YET!
> > How can he expect to get production started?

--
Hartmann Multimedia Service, 
Dipl. In. Stefan Hartmann, Keplerstr. 11 B, 10589 Berlin, Germany
Tel: +49 30 345 00 497, FAX: +49 30 345 00 498
email: harti@harti.com  info@ccard.net
http://ccard.net fuer Ihren Verkauf im WEB !

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 16:20:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: Mark Kinsler
Subject: Tesla weirdness

On Tue, 27 Jul 1999, Mark Kinsler wrote:

> Tesla had a whole bunch of wireless power transmission schemes, I believe. 
> The idea is that if you use a very large antenna and a very big
> transmitter, you should be able to transmit electrical energy anywhere you
> want if you get the frequencies, etc. correct.  And indeed you can: radio
> stations do it all the time.  

Tesla's "World System" used a short vertical tower with a huge sphere on
top, and his drawings show receivers which lack long-wire antennas. 
Whatever Tesla intended, it was not something that resembles modern RF
technology at all.  There were no long-wire antennas anywhere, yet his
operating frequency was in the tens of KHZ.  He intended his tower in New
Jersy to run aircraft and automobiles.  Was he bonkers, or did he have
some interesting physics up his sleeve? 


I recently read a 1992 paper(*) by some engineers who may have discovered
an explanation.  They note that if EM waves go past a small antenna (where
its size << wavelength), and if the antenna is *driven* by an oscillator
which is locked in phase with the incoming EM, then the Poynting-vector
field around the antenna becomes enlarged, even though the vectors still
point towards the antenna.  What?!!!  Impossible!  Doesn't EM obey
superposition?  How can we *extract* energy from an incoming wave by using
an antenna to transmit? 

I haven't gone through a calculation yet, but here's some specuation.  The
Poynting-vector field is the energy flow, which is proportional to the
square of the e-field (it's the E x M).  It does not obey superpostion
because there's an x^2 in the equation.  In engineering terms, the AC
currents and voltage on an antenna cause it to have an "effective area"
which is far larger than the shadow of the metal antenna itself.  When
*any* antenna encounters an EM wave, the EM field produced by the moving
charges within the antenna interacts with the field of the incoming EM
wave, and as a result the Poynting-vector field funnels inwards and
delivers significant power even to a hair-thin antenna.  If the antenna
resistance was too high, the currents and voltages surrounding the antenna
would be too low, and the antenna's field would not reach out and
intercept the incoming wave.  Orthodox physics considers this to be a
simple impedance mismatch.  If the Z of the antenna is wrong, then the
incoming wave will not be absorbed, even if the shape of the antenna is
correct.  But if the Z of the antenna is wrong, then the moving charges in
the antenna will not produce the appropriate EM field that "grabs" the
incoming wave.

What happens if the antenna is driven?  The field-plots in the paper show
that the funnel-shape of the Poynting vector field becomes much larger, as
if the antenna itself was bigger.  This is a near-field effect, and it
only works when the extent of the fields are << wavelength.  As we
approach one wavelength, a driven antenna would become a conventional RF
emitter.  As a result, the phenomenon does not apply to modern RF systems
which use 1/4-wave dipoles or longer.  To make modern antennas effectively
larger, we must use parabolic reflectors, or connect many smaller antennas
into an array.  The process of "effective area enhancement" only has
bearing on a longwave system where the antennas are very small.  These
small antennas must be connected to an oscillator, or must themselves be a
resonator.  For example, a *Tesla coil secondary*, if it contained a large
standing wave of the same frequency as the incoming radiation, would reach
out and grab far more energy than we would predict from looking at its
small size. 

Another analogy: the area of an electron is minimal, yet an electron can
extract energy from EM fields of immense wavelength.  This makes perfect
sense because the incoming fields do not collide with the electron
itself, instead they "collide" with its field.  As far as an EM wave is
concerned, an electron is a big puffy object, and the "size" of the
electron is proportional to its field strength, which is proportional to
its charge.  The same e-field will do more work per unit time on a charge
2Q than on a charge Q.  If the e-field is part of a propagating EM wave,
then the 2Q charge has greater coupling, so it can intercept more power
from the EM wave.  If an electron is a model for a small radio antenna,
then we can increase the coupling between the antenna and the incoming RF
energy by increasing the "charge" on the antenna.  The "charge" on the
antenna must oscillate in time with the incoming wave.


The authors found that by driving a small loop-antenna just enough to
cancel the resistance of the wire, they obtained a 17db gain compared to
an undriven loop.  Weird.  Perhaps there is nothing unusual, and the gain
is coming from the feedback amplifier they used, so their system simply
acts like a conventional RF amplifier.  Or maybe not.

The authors note that ever since RF amplifiers came into use, receiving
antennas have behaved as passive broad-band devices.  Modern radios do not
include the antenna as part of an oscillator (a 'regen' receiver), nor do
they attach antennas directly to sharply-tuned LC resonators, therefor the
antenna would never be a driven element, and the "enhancement of effective
area" phenomena would go unnoticed.


> The problem is that you can't move what we call "commercial quantities" of
> electric power by this method.  Electromagnetic waves spread out and go
> off into space and generally don't behave like you need them to if you're
> in the electric power business.

Tesla's system relied upon the Shumann cavity resonance of the
earth/ionosphere waveguide (although contemporary physicists did not
discover such things until the mid 1950s.)  Tesla intended to excite the
Earth's entire waveguide cavity.  Obviously there would be leakage through
the ionosphere, and resistive losses in the ionosphere and in the ground. 
Whether Tesla's system would be feasible or not depends on the Q of the
earth/ionosphere resonant cavity.  Modern ELF research does detect large
peaks in the noise spectrum at overtones of the Shumann fundamental, so
the Q certainly is high enough that waves must be passing around the Earth
quite a number of times before they eventually decay.  Tesla's
transmission scheme might have worked.  If only he had a way to receive
significant power without needing 1000km antennas... 



> Back in around 1910, nobody realized that (A) we'd get very, very good at
> transmitting electric power efficiently down even the most minimal of
> power lines,

Hey, Tesla was supposedly the prime mover behind the original Niagra power
project (under Westinghouse corp).   There sits his bronze statue at Goat
Island, although conventional history books discuss none of this.  From
what I've read of it, it's not "we" who became very very good at high
voltage AC power transmission, it was Tesla.

> (B) that it's a heck of a lot more profitable to broadcast Amos 'n' Andy
> than it is to broadcast electric power, and

No argument there.  J. P. Morgan supposedly cut off Tesla's funding when
it became apparent that there would be no way to bill the customers who
extracted power from the Tesla transmitter.


> (C) that no
> wireless scheme can transmit much power even under the best of
> circumstances.

Maybe true, maybe not.  Without an ionosphere, and at the frequencies
where antenna size becomes managable, there is no way to intercept
significant power (except via tight microwave beams and "rectenna" 
arrays.)  However, if the Q of the Schumann cavity limits most losses at
ELF frequencies, and if the large field surrounding an antenna/oscillator
can make even a short antenna act like a long one, then Tesla's ideas
don't look quite so crackpot anymore.



* THE BLACK HOLE ANTENNA, in the 1992 Proceedings of the International
  Tesla Society.   A loop antenna is part of an active-feedback amplifier
  which cancels the inductance and resistance of the antenna, and greatly
  increases the gain.

((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 12:59:04 -0700
From: Hal Fox <halfox@uswest.net>
Reply-To: halfox@mail.slkc.uswest.net
To: HalFox@slkc.uswest.net
Subject: INE '99 Symposium

Date:  28 July 1999
From:  Hal Fox <halfox@slkc.uswest.net>
Organization:  Institute for New Energy 

Dear Members of INE and Energy Friends,

The INE-99 Symposium on New Energy will be held in the Salt Palace in
downtown Salt Lake City, Utah on Friday and Saturday, August 27-28,
1999.  We have extended until August 15, 1999 the reduced cost of $100. 
After August 15, 1999, the conference fee will be $150.  This payment
will also include a copy of the Journal of New Energy INE-99 Symposium
Proceedings.  

This Conference is being Cosponsored by:
Alternative Energy Institute, Inc.
Phone/Fax: 530-546-5612
www.altenergy.org

Dr. Patrick Bailey, president of the Institute for New Energy, will be
the Conference Chairman.

Please visit the INE Website for further information that will be posted
as this conference agenda becomes completed:  Web Page: 
www.padrak.com/ine/

There are three special topics in this year's event that are important
to the development of new energy sources:  Hadronic Mechanics, New
Maxwell Electromagnetic Equations, and several New Science Papers.

1.  Hadronic Mechanics:
Prof. Ruggero Santilli will discuss his life's work on Hadronic
Mechanics and how his theory explains the actions within the nuclei and
how important this understanding is to some of the new energy
developments.  New energy experiments proposed.

2.  New Maxwell Electrodynamic Equations:  
Tom Bearden and Prof. Lawrence B. Crowell (tentative) will introduce the
New Maxwell Electromagnetic Equations that are expected to greatly
extend the electromagnetic technologies into new fields of endeavor,
especially new energy sources.  Proof that space energy is available and
can be tapped?

3.  New Science Papers:  
a.  Dr. S-X Jin and Hal Fox will present the latest analytical work on
how high-density charge clusters can be used to stabilize high-level
radioactive wastes with applications to new forms of energy
development.  One million times more effective than current technology.
b.  Paul Rowe (tentative) discovered the "Rowe Effect" in which protons
(hydrogen) are created from space energy by explosions and arcs.
c.  Dr. Ed Price will report on a new super-strong magnetic material.
d.  Bill Ramsay will report on gravity-wave fluctuations (torsion
fields?).
e.  Moray King will present the latest information on zero-point energy.
f.  Sue Benford (tentative) has shown that Spontaneous Human Combustion
is probably an internal human-body nuclear reaction.
g.  Dr. Panos T. Pappas (tentative) shows that the excess potassium
produced by humans (and other organisms) comes from a sodium-oxygen
nuclear reaction within body cells.
h.  Thomas Valone will outline some of the questions that must be
answered for the field of new energy to properly expand and be
academically acceptable.
i.  Mark McLaughlin (Alternative Energy Institute), The goals and
objectives of AEI.
j.  Prof. Xingliu Jiang from China (tentative) is expected to present a
paper on his work with low-energy nuclear reactions.
k.  David Faust will present a special report on the government-funded
study of the Russian Kirlian photography.

The above list is subject to modification and change.  Latest changes
will be posted on the INE Web Page.

Note:  All of these important topics have a direct application to the
understanding of new energy phenomena.  New Energy progress will be more
rapid and academic acceptance will be accelerated as we couple new
scientific discoveries with new theories properly supported by provable
mathematical models.   

IMPORTANT:  NEW MAXWELL ELECTRODYNAMIC EQUATIONS - 
A ONCE-IN-A-HUNDRED-YEAR DISCOVERY AND ANNOUNCEMENT
The INE-99 Symposium has been selected (thanks to Tom Bearden) as the
first audience to hear about the most important advance in
electromagnetics in almost 100 years.  Thirty topics not explained by
the Maxwell-Heaviside equations are explained by the new equations. 
Following the conference, a special issue (now in process) of the
Journal of New Energy will be devoted to a series of over 30 papers
from  Dr. Myron W. Evans and eighteen co-authors from eleven countries
who have participated in the development of the New Maxwell
Electromagnetic Equations.  If you have any interest in being among the
first to understand, use, and profit by the expected tremendous new
advances in electromagnetics (including new-energy technologies), you
won't want to miss this conference.

NOTICE TO SPEAKERS:
Abstracts of presentations to be made at the conference are due August
15, 1999.  Papers to be published must be provided at the conference to
be included in the Conference Proceedings. 

MOTELS (Call directly; make your reservations early)

Quality Inn City Center,  154 W 500 S
(801) 521-2930,  Toll Free 800-521-9997
5 blocks from Salt Palace; shuttle service to Salt Palace, or within
free bus zone; full American breakfast; 2 good restaurants, American &
Mexican; swimming pool; self-regulated air cond.;  Airport shuttle
service
Corporate Rooms:  $58 single, $62 double    Standard Rooms: $49 single,
$52 double
****
Deseret Inn,  50 W 500 S,  (801) 532-2900
3  blocks from Salt Palace; within free bus zone; no breakfast; no
amenities except TV; clean; ask for best air conditioning   Rooms:
$29.95 single,  $32.95 double
****
Some other hotels/motels downtown are:
Shilo Downtown Hotel, 206 S West Temple   $109 Aug 26, $69 weekend rate
Aug 27-28
(801) 521-9500 or Toll Free 800-222-2244
***
Marriott Hotel, 75 S West Temple,   $145 corporate rate, $155 standard
rate
(801) 531-0800 or Toll Free 800-228-9290
***
Doubletree Hotel, 255 S West Temple, $89,   (801) 328-2000 or Toll Free
800-222-8733            

Hampton Inn, 425 S 300 W, $69    (801) 741-1110

Contact Hal Fox at:  Voice 801-466-8680; Fax 801-466-8668; mail:
Trenergy, Inc. 3084 E. 3300 So., Salt Lake City, UT  84109.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 28 18:54:30 1999
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From: "Jim Shaffer, Jr." <jshaffer@csrlink.net>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Tesla & long antennas
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 21:50:46 -0400
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>The authors note that ever since RF amplifiers came into use, receiving
>antennas have behaved as passive broad-band devices.  Modern radios do not
>include the antenna as part of an oscillator (a 'regen' receiver), nor do
>they attach antennas directly to sharply-tuned LC resonators, therefor the
>antenna would never be a driven element, and the "enhancement of effective
>area" phenomena would go unnoticed.

Did I ever mention, on this list, the time I was playing with the VHF fine
tuning knob on an old rotary-tuned TV set connected to a rabbit-ear antenna and
it silenced an FM radio on the other side of the room?

--
Secretary, Williamsport Area Computer Club <http://www.sunlink.net/wacc>
Member, Susquehanna Valley Amateur Astronomers
<http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2999/svaa.html>
Personal Home Page: http://woodstock.csrlink.net/~jshaffer


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 28 19:27:10 1999
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From: "Bill Wallace`" <btech@surfsouth.com>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>, <billb@eskimo.com>
References: <Pine.SUN.3.96.990728182307.16486C-100000@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Tesla & long antennas
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 22:30:26 -0400
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> operating frequency was in the tens of KHZ.  He intended his tower in New
> Jersy to run aircraft and automobiles.  Was he bonkers, or did he have
> some interesting physics up his sleeve?

While wardenclyffe may be our future - and in a peaceful society it is
efficient  (I know I hate the monotonous chore of refueling the car) isn't a
centralized system like that militarily weak?  Today each vehicle has its
own power source - centralize the power source and then you only have to
take out the tower to cripple an entire city or more - wonderful for your
enemies or terrorists.

> Tesla's system relied upon the Shumann cavity resonance of the
> earth/ionosphere waveguide (although contemporary physicists did not
> discover such things until the mid 1950s.)

Doesn't natural phenomena such as lightning upset the Schumann resonance
considerably?

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 28 20:55:30 1999
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From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Tesla & long antennas
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On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, Jim Shaffer, Jr. wrote:

> Did I ever mention, on this list, the time I was playing with the VHF
> fine tuning knob on an old rotary-tuned TV set connected to a rabbit-ear
> antenna and it silenced an FM radio on the other side of the room? 

Hey, there's some experimental evidence!

If regen receivers and oscillator/antennae suck extra energy from the
ether, then they also should behave like super-absorbers.  A grid of loop
antennas with resistors might not work any better than a single small loop
antenna connected to a coil/capacitor resonator. 

I've occasionally heard rumors of devices which grabbed energy from 60Hz
house wiring.  Milliwatts I could understand, but if this effect can be
used to light a lightbulb, then something strange is occurring.  If we
have a 60Hz resonant circuit connected to a loop antenna, maybe it can
pull in far more energy than just the loop antenna alone.

If this stuff is real, then it would be interesting to set up a resonator
in the neighborhood next to an AM radio tower.  Maybe you could run a
motor.  But everyone "downstream" from your receiver would have that
signal wiped out.  If you were close enough to the AM tower, maybe you'd
even change its impedance, as if there were a direct connection between
your device and the tower.  That was supposedly a feature of Tesla's
system: if you started drawing energy on the other side of the Earth, the
generator at the main transmitter would immediately feel the load and need
to open the fuel valve wider. 


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Wed Jul 28 21:09:56 1999
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Jim Shaffer, Jr. wrote:

> Did I ever mention, on this list, the time I was playing with the VHF fine
> tuning knob on an old rotary-tuned TV set connected to a rabbit-ear antenna and
> it silenced an FM radio on the other side of the room?

How long did this effect last and was it reprodicible ?

Alik S.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 29 00:33:30 1999
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"Jim Shaffer, Jr." wrote:

> >The authors note that ever since RF amplifiers came into use, receiving
> >antennas have behaved as passive broad-band devices.  Modern radios do not
> >include the antenna as part of an oscillator (a 'regen' receiver), nor do
> >they attach antennas directly to sharply-tuned LC resonators, therefor the
> >antenna would never be a driven element, and the "enhancement of effective
> >area" phenomena would go unnoticed.
>
> Did I ever mention, on this list, the time I was playing with the VHF fine
> tuning knob on an old rotary-tuned TV set connected to a rabbit-ear antenna and
> it silenced an FM radio on the other side of the room?
>

 Not too difficult to imagine why:

 a) American FM radio at 88-108MHz right between TV channels

 b) antique-ANALOG VHF tuner with vernier tuning, essentially a tanked-
     amplifier/oscillator pair with filtering - probably a varactor circuit..99%
     of them were. These can easily become a low-level (.01-.1 w.) transmitter.

 c) whilst tweeking, you managed to drive the tuner into an avalanche-mode
    thereby creating a very strong silencing on the frequency that your FM radio
    was tuned to...it's called "capture effect". Very well understood.

 Cheers!

       Erik aka KB6LUY



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 29 01:06:54 1999
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Subject: Re: Tesla & long antennas
From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick@highsurf.com>
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Bill -

> That was supposedly a feature of Tesla's
> system: if you started drawing energy on the other side of the Earth, the
> generator at the main transmitter would immediately feel the load and need
> to open the fuel valve wider.

*Immediately*?

(Can wide open ... worms everywhere...)

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 29 01:16:39 1999
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From: "Harvey Norris" <tesla4@excite.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Two Grounds
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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 01:15:18 PDT
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Concurrent with all my entrees;
is a little bit of skipped info.

When I tried to explain to the
tesla coilers the significance
of a binary resonant system
applied to primaries, Bill Wysock
himself wrote me a letter saying 
that he had already demonstrated this before thousands of people in 1992 at
Colorado Springs.

He directed me to the schematic of the 
model 12 coil in which I quickly replied
that the BRS was entirely different from the 
schematic contained at Tesla Technology Research site
www.ttr.com or whatever.

Anyone can go back to the archives and look under the name Harvey Norris and
see what I have already said.
Because of the fact that I have described a simple thing such as an arc gap
shared by both inductive and capacitive currents from opposite directions in
a figure 8 where the central horizontal line of that figure 8 conveys this
180 phasings combined into unity has caused confusion.

The method that Bill Wysock used was to put the TWO PRIMARIES THEMSELVES IN
MAGNETIC OPPOSITION AS TO SIMULATE TWO QUARTER WAVELENGTH RESONATORS PLACED
BACK TO BACK. HE USES A SINGLE CAPACITOR IN THIS REGARD.

Because of the little known fact that two opposing fields actually decreases
and does not increase inductance by mutual inductance, this in turn means
that a larger capacity must be used to resonate the primaries. In turn this
represents more energy in oscillation that may produce longer arcs on the
secondary.

Rather than get embroiled in semantics which is common in that group a more
important point has been glossed over. That fact is contained in the reverse
possibility. WHEREBY EACH OF THE PRIMARIES ARE THEMSELVES MADE FROM A 180
PHASING AND THEN COMBINED INTO UNITY BY VIRTUE OF THIS FIGURE 8.

I realize that this conception is not seen at first glance. Of course I want
people to see this.

What it means is that on that figure 8 exists two paths of current flow. I
have elaborated on the Rowland BBS discussion board that in this figure 8 I
have observed that two current formations can exist: two on the outside of
the figure 8 that exists when that center path is opened by a switch that
causes non-conduction on that center path.

The second current path occurs ALWAYS when the switch closes. The remarkable
thing is that this path is the path of GREATER RESISTANCE OR IMPEDANCE AND
THAT A FUNDAMENTAL FLAW OF UNDERSTANDING AC CURRENTS IS IN ORDER HERE!
Either that or I am relegated to the duty of being an idiot.

Nevertheless a load can be placed at that point and the whole device can act
as an impedance transformer which is what it is.

Now where the subject of two grounds comes in is this:
when a load such as flourescent bulb is placed at the midpoint of the figure
8, and another bulb is connected to ground,from that same connection to
ground a greater response is seen!

This of course led to the wondering whether two grounds widely separated in
spacings could convey a better effect when the loads between the unobvious
potentials are again given the choice of conduction through the ground as a
path of higher resistance, or that of straight conduction.

These kind of currents choose the path of highest resistance totally
contrary to our understanding.




________________________________________________________________
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 29 01:38:20 1999
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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:38:16 +0200
From: Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com>
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http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US03934964__
Here is the patent..

-------- Original Message --------
Datum: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:24:58 -0400
  Von: Wesley Crosia <wrc@cdepot.net>
   An: <harti@harti.com>

Dear Stefan     These guys are just trying to take credit for something
that they have seen. I designed a gravity wheel that a friend of mine
built. It worked although very primitive. My friend mentioned it to
wiseman and George came up with the diagram on his webpage. my friend
and I had already came up with this same design before George ever
thought of it and I still suspect my friend told george this design even
though he swears he didn't. By the way, our device rotated for a day and
a half before it started leaking. Guess what, there is nothing new under
the sun.I did a patent search to see if there was a similar design and
guess what. Patent # 3,934,964 came up which is almost an exact replica
of the picture on your page. Notice the date. 1976. Yes this does
work.wes

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 29 01:56:07 1999
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From: "Harvey Norris" <tesla4@excite.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Impedance Transformer?
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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 01:55:47 PDT
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A great gulf between belief and actuality often occurs amongst comparisons
involving ferromagnetics and that of air core coils. Two 56 henry air core
coils placed side by side in the most effective positioning yields less that
one tenth of a percent transformation efficiency at 60 hz. This is only the
comparison of input vs output energies. Not a very good transformer!

Yet the same two coils acting in conjunction at 60 hz in what has
detrimentally been called nothing more than a impedance transformer can
actually increase the effective mutual inductance of each coil by 8 %.

There also exists a gulf between what electrical science says is possible
and what is possible in the real world. I hope every one finds what I have
found;given L and C and try to make them resonate.
Believe me, you will cuss at the textbooks.

The phase angle at 60 hz resonance appears almost perfect on the 56 H coils
yet only 80% of the predicted amperage occurs.

Other examples are worse,much worse. 
The free energy person is constantly fighting an uphill battle, and the rest
of the world bombards him continually with the fact that he is wrong.

If such is the case,why does he refuse to believe it?

Perhaps it has to do with karma... HDN




________________________________________________________________
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 29 03:27:16 1999
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From: "Glenville T. Sawyer" <gsawyer@dove.net.au>
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"Exhalted Carrier Reception" !

 Yes the principle does work to pull signals from the noise,
or indeed to be more precise, to allow the detection of signals
below the normal threshold of a receiver.

 Have played with this technique (a few years back), think there
was a lot of talk about it back in "QST" m,agazine a few years ago also.

 Sort of dropped out of the "interest zone" since we devloped DSP's that
can achieve better results for reception purposes, may have to have
a look back at this, see if I missed anything.

 Regards.

 Glenville.



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 29 04:08:14 1999
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From: "Harvey Norris" <tesla4@excite.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Physics 122
Message-Id: <933246465.9157.233@excite.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 04:07:45 PDT
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This is a good refresher course for all of us who wonder why we didnt pay
attention in college when and if we got there.

http://maxwell.byu.edu/~spencerr/websum122/web.html





________________________________________________________________
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 29 06:12:02 1999
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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:09:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: Zack Widup <w9sz@prairienet.org>
Subject: Re: Tesla & long antennas
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, eks1 wrote:

> 
> 
> "Jim Shaffer, Jr." wrote:
> 
> > Did I ever mention, on this list, the time I was playing with the VHF fine
> > tuning knob on an old rotary-tuned TV set connected to a rabbit-ear antenna and
> > it silenced an FM radio on the other side of the room?
> >
> 
>  Not too difficult to imagine why:
> 
>  a) American FM radio at 88-108MHz right between TV channels
> 
>  b) antique-ANALOG VHF tuner with vernier tuning, essentially a tanked-
>      amplifier/oscillator pair with filtering - probably a varactor circuit..99%
>      of them were. These can easily become a low-level (.01-.1 w.) transmitter.
> 
>  c) whilst tweeking, you managed to drive the tuner into an avalanche-mode
>     thereby creating a very strong silencing on the frequency that your FM radio
>     was tuned to...it's called "capture effect". Very well understood.
> 
>  Cheers!
> 
>        Erik aka KB6LUY

Not only that, but FM radios use a 10.7 MHz IF frequency.  The local 
oscillator is 10.7 MHz away from the received frequency, and the image 
frequency is 21.4 MHz away.  I don't know what the local oscillator 
frequency of the vintage TV was, but chances are it was right in the FM band.
Putting a carrier on any of these frequencies would've caused the effect.

Zack (W9SZ)


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 29 06:19:14 1999
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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 06:18:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jerry Wayne Decker <jwdatwork@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Does this really work ?
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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Hi All!

Yet another patent claim that does not indicate it was
ever built or tested, just dreamed up and drawn up. 
Such patents certainly accentuate why the patent
office should REQUIRE A WORKING MODEL to be
'examined', not just a description with drawings and
claims.  

I have numerous copies of patents with such claims (as
I'm sure do many others on this list), none of which
have been built, only conceptualized and it sure does
waste a lot of time wading through and trying to find
something real. 

That's why we DON'T see them WORKING EVERYWHERE
because they are 'conceptualized claims'.

This stuff is similar to Wally Mintos Wonder Wheel
though his was actually demonstrated and written up in
I believe Popular Science back in the early 1980's.  

Why they aren't also in use somewhere in this vast
country videotaped, documented and doing work, I don't
understand, probably because of their size and slow
speed, yet it did have high torque.

http://www.keelynet.com/energy/minto.htm

"...I wasn't quite sure if he was kidding about this
newest engine. Four - used propane bottles were hose-
clamped to the ends of two pieces of aluminum angle,
each about four feet long."

(indicating about 8-10 foot diameter) 

"Minto estimates a slightly larger (40 ft.) wheel with
14 pairs of one-ft. by 4.5 ft. containers would
provide 10,240 ft/lb of work per container as each 269
lb. of liquid responds to gravity through a 20 ft
level arm. 

At only one rpm this is 8.69 hp; not spectacular, but
low cost and capable of running steadily for
generations."
-----------------
These types of drawings always disturb me because they
show a balanced system, that's the last thing you want
for it to be self-running, even the Minto wheel as in
the diagram at the above URL should be more of a
swastika or offset so that at the zenith it will tend
to fall in a preferred direction (thought is still
balances at one point in the rotation, that's why so
many have a kicker that knocks it over the hump).

Troy Reed and others even use a kicker at roughly 320
degrees to kick the wheel over the hump.

Amazing if there are so many of these that have been
built and work that we aren't tripping over them
everywhere we go or seeing them on the news or as
videotapes/plans or demos at conferences...why is
that???  I think the answer is obvious, its a fine
line to walk between the working hardware of reality
and the conceptual idea realm of claims without proof.

--- Stefan Hartmann <harti@harti.com> wrote:
> http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US03934964__
> Here is the patent..
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> Datum: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:24:58 -0400
> Von: Wesley Crosiar 
> 
> Dear Stefan - These guys are just trying to take
> credit for something that they have seen. I 
> designed a gravity wheel that a friend of mine
> built. It worked although very primitive. My friend
> mentioned it to wiseman and George came up with the 
> diagram on his webpage. my friend and I had already 
> came up with this same design before George ever
> thought of it and I still suspect my friend told
> george this design even though he swears he didn't. 
> By the way, our device rotated for a day and a half 
> before it started leaking. Guess what, there is 
> nothing new under the sun.I did a patent search to 
> see if there was a similar design and guess what. 
> Patent # 3,934,964 came up which is almost an exact 
> replica of the picture on your page. Notice the 
> date. 1976.  Yes this does work. wes

===


=================================
Please respond to jdecker@keelynet.com
as I am writing from my work email of
jwdatwork@yahoo.com.........thanks!
=================================
_____________________________________________________________
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 29 10:53:26 1999
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From: HLafonte@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:45:10 EDT
Subject: Need address for Magnetic Wankel device
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Does anyone have an address for the Magnetic Wankel device? I I need a 
drawing of it.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 29 12:41:14 1999
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From: Trevmaniac@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:39:41 EDT
Subject: Re: Need address for Magnetic Wankel device
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Bearden has a sketch at

http://www.virtualtimes.com/writers/bearden/mageng/fig8.htm


Trev

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 29 14:36:13 1999
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From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Tesla & long antennas
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On Wed, 28 Jul 1999, Rick Monteverde wrote:

> Bill -
> 
> > That was supposedly a feature of Tesla's
> > system: if you started drawing energy on the other side of the Earth, the
> > generator at the main transmitter would immediately feel the load and need
> > to open the fuel valve wider.
> 
> *Immediately*?
> 
> (Can wide open ... worms everywhere...)


"Immediately" within a fraction of a second!  :)


If you put your thumb on a spinning drive shaft, the engine feels the load
"immediately"  (although of course there is a tiny propagation delay at
the speed of sound in the drive shaft.)   This certainly is not how modern
radios work.


Separate question: in the UK, how do those "survey trucks" count the
number of radios and TV sets in the neighborhood?  If they're going to
fine you for unlicensed radios, they need to do more than detect the
presence of *any* radios, instead they need to count them.  Perhaps they
detect the enhanced resonant absorbtion of the LC parts of the superhet
circuits.  If they sweep their 455KHZ transmitter very slowly, it won't be
picked up by surrounding radios (it would be almost DC), but radios would
appear on their spectrum display as separate absorbtion notches.

Another separate observation: atoms absorb light waves, even though atoms
are far smaller than the wavelength of light.  The chromium ions in ruby
are a tiny impurity, and the atoms are too small to interact with enormous
light waves, yet they strongly absorb/flouresce.  If they are
*resonators*, and they reach out with oscillating fields to grab extra
energy, then they would behave as 1/2-wave dipole antennas even though
they are thousands of times smaller.


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 29 15:30:06 1999
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From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Magnetic Supershielding
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On Tue, 20 Jul 1999, Anton Rager wrote:

Hmmmm.  An active EM energy absorber?  Based on coils which are far
smaller than the operating wavelength?  Fields which interact, and "dance"
together?  Tiny coils which shield large volumes?  Physicists react in
disbelief?

Sounds like a Tesla invention!    :)


> Brown explains that a shielding coil is used again, but the secondary
> and primary currents have to "dance" together to achieve supershielding,
> where the opposing coil currents cancel out the magnetic forces emitted. 
> 
> He likens the results to a dam with a hole in it. "Instead of plugging
> the hole with a finger to stop the leakage, the dam can be discarded and
> the finger holds everything back by itself," Brown says. 
> 
> "We couldn't believe it when we first did the mathematics. We found with
> a short and open outside shield, we could get the same perfect 
> suppression obtained by an infinite shield," he adds. "We had a zero
> magnetic field everywhere outside, even in those regions where there was
> no secondary coil." 
> 
> Trapping magnetic fields in a closed container presents no problem, but
> to be able to trap them with an open-coil system is what shocked the
> CWRU research physicists. Shvartsman adds that every time they describe
> the result to experts, the initial reaction is disbelief. 



((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
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From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 29 16:31:45 1999
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From: "Aris" <avd@wirehub.nl>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
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Subject: a flying hybrid....
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 01:33:43 +0200
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Hi all,

Within two days I'm going an a holiday and I like to do some
under the stars research with some beers about a flying hybrid...

Basicly there are two flying machines a heavier then air and lighter
then air... With modern composites, carbon and kevlar resigns,
i guess it would be possible to come with new designs combining
those two flying principles... Also i'm thinking of integrsting solar
cels for powering this craft... Last year I made some calculations
and it is possible to make it fly...........

I really like to hear your reactions, opinions, visions, etc..........


Regards,

Aris....



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 29 16:37:07 1999
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From: "Psy-Kosh" <joeyk19@idt.net>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
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Subject: Re: Tesla & long antennas
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 19:39:41 -0400
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    Just a couple questions/thoughts/ideas on this...
First, is there a similar effect with acoustic waves? can you absorb sound
waves in a similar fasion by driving, say a small tuning fork at a lower
frequency?

    Also, another idea, if you applied a small amount of infrared light to
some ions, would that cause the ions to absorb heat? for that matter, if the
principle also has an acoustic analouge, and as Bill pointed out that heat
could be just high frequency acustic waves, then use electric fields
alternating at ultrasonic or higher frequencys to drive oscilate a bunch of
ions, which would then act as a acoustic heat antenna.

just my .000042 cents worth

Psy-Kosh
DC2.?/(scientist)~(~H) r++/r+++! Gm a- s++ u-.5 (Carestaff member)

"The scientist who would rather refute than comprehend demonstrates he has
chosen the wrong calling." -The Forever Machine
------------------------------------------------

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 29 17:26:37 1999
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From: "Jim Shaffer, Jr." <jshaffer@csrlink.net>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: Tesla & long antennas
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:33:35 -0400
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>How long did this effect last and was it reprodicible ?

It lasted until I re-tuned one of the devices.  It was reproducible, but I
haven't tried it too often.

--
Secretary, Williamsport Area Computer Club <http://www.sunlink.net/wacc>
Member, Susquehanna Valley Amateur Astronomers
<http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2999/svaa.html>
Personal Home Page: http://woodstock.csrlink.net/~jshaffer



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 29 18:59:56 1999
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From: "Timothy Flytcher" <flytch@hotmail.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: a flying hybrid....
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:58:52 PDT
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Hi Aris...
I'd like to talk... tell me more???
e-mail me
flytch@hotmail.com
I have experience with models...
and design...
Timothy

>Hi all,
>
>Within two days I'm going an a holiday and I like to do some
>under the stars research with some beers about a flying hybrid...
>
>Basicly there are two flying machines a heavier then air and lighter
>then air... With modern composites, carbon and kevlar resigns,
>i guess it would be possible to come with new designs combining
>those two flying principles... Also i'm thinking of integrsting solar
>cels for powering this craft... Last year I made some calculations
>and it is possible to make it fly...........
>
>I really like to hear your reactions, opinions, visions, etc..........
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Aris....
>
>
>


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

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From: B777b77@webtv.net (R B)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:12:53 -0500 (EST)
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
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--WebTV-Mail-17430-1264
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Here is another;


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http://waami.avmz.uni-wuppertal.de/www.overunity.de/wankel.html

--WebTV-Mail-17430-1264--

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Thu Jul 29 23:24:51 1999
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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:23:43
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From: Dave Dameron <ddameron@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Tesla & long antennas
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At 08:54 PM 7/28/99 -0700, Bill wrote:

>If regen receivers and oscillator/antennae suck extra energy from the
>ether, then they also should behave like super-absorbers.  A grid of loop
>antennas with resistors might not work any better than a single small loop
>antenna connected to a coil/capacitor resonator. 
>
One could have a setup where a regen. receiver, not oscillating, acted as a
transmitter and the transmitter the receiver. The receiver was adjusted
_just_ before oscillation so it acted as a "Q multiplier" or "black hole"
device to conteract the resistance in the antenna tuning circuit. If this
was switched on/off, the loading of the nearby transmitter could be
changed. An explanation is high "Q" circuits need very little coupling for
optimum energy transfer. I don't see how Tesla could have done this about
1900 before vacuum tube amplifiers?
-Dave

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 30 08:56:19 1999
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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:01:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Briggs 614-752-0199 <MH2_BRIGGS@ODNVMS.A1.Ohio.Gov>
Subject: RE: a flying hybrid....
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Aris,

I've been wondering, with modern materials could we create a mostly hollow 
sphere filled with hard vacuum?  It should float up depending on how much 
air it displaces.

A spherical shape maximizes volume, while minimizing surface material.

Within limits it would get stronger as the outside air presses in evenly, 
like an egg shell does.

Perhaps you could relieve some of the outside pressure, at least in one 
axis by giving it a spin.  Centrifugal pressure would balance out some of 
the outside air pressure.  You could then concentrate any internal bracing 
in the other axis.

If it is only strong enough that we can get a partial vacuum, but that 
partial vacuum is enough to give us lift, then as we gain altitude the 
external pressure would decrease which would allow us to pump more air out.

Even if we don't get actual lift we should at least get weight cancellation 
to some degree so that a conventional propulsion system would become more 
effective for the total amount of mass we are moving.

Perhaps a ground based laser system could give us some additional initial 
boost, followed by discardable Jato type rockets.

You could have the outside covered with a thin film solar cell material 
that has been discussed here before.  Then you could install either an ion 
type drive ala DeepSpace1, or perhaps JL Naudin's EHD drive.

If we are aiming for LEO orbit the sphere material could be considered the 
major bulk of the payload.

Food for thought to go with your beer, knock one back for me while you are 
at it.

Bill
webriggs@concentric.net
briggs@XLNsystems.com

DISCLAIMER:	Any flaky ideas presented are my own hair brained ideas,
		and NOT the flaky hair brained ideas of my employer.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 30 11:16:15 1999
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From: William Beaty <billb@eskimo.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Tesla & long antennas
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On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Dave Dameron wrote:

> One could have a setup where a regen. receiver, not oscillating, acted as a
> transmitter and the transmitter the receiver. The receiver was adjusted
> _just_ before oscillation so it acted as a "Q multiplier" or "black hole"
> device to conteract the resistance in the antenna tuning circuit. If this
> was switched on/off, the loading of the nearby transmitter could be
> changed. An explanation is high "Q" circuits need very little coupling for
> optimum energy transfer. I don't see how Tesla could have done this about
> 1900 before vacuum tube amplifiers?

A high-Q passive resonator would do the same, no?  Break the circuit or
de-tune it, and if that resonator is within a wavelength or so of the
transmitter, the transmitter feels a big change in loading.



((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 30 11:27:07 1999
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Not been following this thread too much, too busy.

In UK, detect TV's by linescan but possibility for IF detection. Also
large back up in our police state of shops keeping register of what has
been sold. Christ all this for a bloody tv! It's not worth the license fee
and I don't own one.
Remi.

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 30 12:47:18 1999
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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:47:09 +0200
From: Felix Meyer <hb9abx@datacomm.ch>
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Harvey Norris schrieb:
> 
> This is a good refresher course for all of us who wonder why we didnt pay
> attention in college when and if we got there.
> 
> http://maxwell.byu.edu/~spencerr/websum122/web.html
> 
> ________________________________________________________________


Please check the address:

System responds with : NOT FOUND !

Thank you
            Felix

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Subject: Info On the INE Conference: August 27-28, 1999, SLC, UT
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Information Regarding the INE Conference: August 27-28, 1999, SLC, UT

[INE:  Institute for New Energy]

--- ----- -------

Date: 28 July 1999
From: Hal Fox <halfox@slkc.uswest.net>
Subject: INE '99 Symposium

Dear Members of INE and Energy Friends,

THE 1999 INE CONFERENCE:

The INE-99 Symposium on New Energy will be held in the Salt Palace in
downtown Salt Lake City, Utah on Friday and Saturday, August 27-28, 1999.
We have extended until August 15, 1999 the reduced cost of $100. After
August 15, 1999, the conference fee will be $150. This payment will also
include a copy of the Journal of New Energy INE-99 Symposium Proceedings.

This Conference is being Cosponsored by: Alternative Energy Institute, Inc.
Phone/Fax: 530-546-5612,
http://www.altenergy.org.

Dr. Patrick Bailey, president of the Institute for New Energy, will be the
Conference Chairman.

THE INE WEBSITE (for all additional information; none yet!):

Please visit the INE Website for further information that will be posted as
this conference agenda becomes completed: Web Page:
http://www.padrak.com/ine/.

CONFERENCE TOPICS:

There are three special topics in this year's event that are important to
the development of new energy sources: Hadronic Mechanics, New Maxwell
Electromagnetic Equations, and several New Science Papers.

1. Hadronic Mechanics:

Prof. Ruggero Santilli will discuss his life's work on Hadronic Mechanics
and how his theory explains the actions within the nuclei and how important
this understanding is to some of the new energy developments. New energy
experiments proposed.

2. New Maxwell Electrodynamic Equations:

Tom Bearden and Prof. Lawrence B. Crowell (tentative) will introduce the
New Maxwell Electromagnetic Equations that are expected to greatly extend
the electromagnetic technologies into new fields of endeavor, especially
new energy sources. Proof that space energy is available and can be tapped?

3. New Science Papers:

a. Dr. S-X Jin and Hal Fox will present the latest analytical work on how
high-density charge clusters can be used to stabilize high-level
radioactive wastes with applications to new forms of energy development.
One million times more effective than current technology.

b. Paul Rowe (tentative) discovered the "Rowe Effect" in which protons
(hydrogen) are created from space energy by explosions and arcs.

c. Dr. Ed Price will report on a new super-strong magnetic material.

d. Bill Ramsay will report on gravity-wave fluctuations (torsion fields?).

e. Moray King will present the latest information on zero-point energy.

f. Sue Benford (tentative) has shown that Spontaneous Human Combustion is
probably an internal human-body nuclear reaction.

g. Dr. Panos T. Pappas (tentative) shows that the excess potassium produced
by humans (and other organisms) comes from a sodium-oxygen nuclear reaction
within body cells.

h. Thomas Valone will outline some of the questions that must be answered
for the field of new energy to properly expand and be academically
acceptable.

i. Mark McLaughlin (Alternative Energy Institute), The goals and objectives
of AEI.

j. Prof. Xingliu Jiang from China (tentative) is expected to present a
paper on his work with low-energy nuclear reactions.

k. David Faust will present a special report on the government-funded study
of the Russian Kirlian photography.

The above list is subject to modification and change. Latest changes will
be posted on the INE Web Page at http://www.padrak.com/ine/.

Note: All of these important topics have a direct application to the
understanding of new energy phenomena. New Energy progress will be more
rapid and academic acceptance will be accelerated as we couple new
scientific discoveries with new theories properly supported by provable
mathematical models.

IMPORTANT: NEW MAXWELL ELECTRODYNAMIC EQUATIONS -
           A ONCE-IN-A-HUNDRED-YEAR DISCOVERY AND ANNOUNCEMENT:

The INE-99 Symposium has been selected (thanks to Tom Bearden) as the first
audience to hear about the most important advance in electromagnetics in
almost 100 years. Thirty topics not explained by the Maxwell-Heaviside
equations are explained by the new equations. Following the conference, a
special issue (now in process) of the Journal of New Energy will be devoted
to a series of over 30 papers from Dr. Myron W. Evans and eighteen
co-authors from eleven countries who have participated in the development
of the New Maxwell Electromagnetic Equations. If you have any interest in
being among the first to understand, use, and profit by the expected
tremendous new advances in electromagnetics (including new-energy
technologies), you won't want to miss this conference.

NOTICE TO SPEAKERS:

Abstracts of presentations to be made at the conference are due August 15,
1999. Papers to be published must be provided at the conference to be
included in the Conference Proceedings.

MOTELS (Call directly; make your reservations early):

Quality Inn City Center, 154 W 500 S
(801) 521-2930, Toll Free 800-521-9997
5 blocks from Salt Palace; shuttle service to Salt Palace, or within free
bus zone; full American breakfast; 2 good restaurants, American & Mexican;
swimming pool; self-regulated air cond.; Airport shuttle service
Corporate Rooms: $58 single, $62 double
Standard Rooms: $49 single, $52 double
****

Deseret Inn, 50 W 500 S, (801) 532-2900
3  blocks from Salt Palace; within free bus zone; no breakfast; few
amenities, but clean; ask for best air conditioning Rooms: $29.95 single,
$32.95 double
****

Some other hotels/motels downtown are:
Shilo Downtown Hotel, 206 S West Temple $109 Aug 26, $69 weekend rate Aug 27-28
(801) 521-9500 or Toll Free 800-222-2244 ***
Marriott Hotel, 75 S West Temple, $145 corporate rate, $155 standard rate
(801) 531-0800 or Toll Free 800-228-9290 ***
Doubletree Hotel, 255 S West Temple, $89, (801) 328-2000 or Toll Free
800-222-8733

Hampton Inn, 425 S 300 W, $69 (801) 741-1110

Contact Hal Fox at: Voice 801-466-8680; Fax 801-466-8668;
mail: Trenergy, Inc. 3084 E. 3300 So., Salt Lake City, UT 84109.

--- ----- -------



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 30 14:11:17 1999
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Got it!  (I think...)

Suppose we transmit a VLF signal at 1KHZ.  Suppose it has about the same
strength as the Earth's vertical e-field:  100 V/m, and if the bottom of
the ionosphere is about 100Km high, then the entire vertical field is
about 10 megavolts.  These values aren't totally ridiculous.  Tesla coils
commonly produce 10 megavolts.  The AC field at the Earth's surface would
be too small to notice. 



CAPACITIVE-PLATE ANTENNA

OK, so how will a simple antenna-plate perform?  If it's a large
horizontal plate about one meter off the ground, it will give out a 100
volt signal at 1KHz, but with very large impedance.  Say that the
plate/ground capacitance is 10pF.  To draw energy at maximum voltage, the
load resistor should be approximatiely equal to the capacitor impedance (I
think).  This gives a 1/(2*PI*F*C) = 16.7 megohm resistor, and it drags
the voltage down from 100V to 70.7V.  The received energy in the resistor
is a fraction of a milliwatt, and the current is in the microamp range. 
Can't run a car engine from that!  It's similar to a conventional radio
antenna.

  __________  -->
 | 10 MVolt |_______
 | @ 1KHz   |       |
 |__________|       |
    |            ___|___     Capacitance from ionosphere to plate
   _|_                       ( very small, say 1/10,000 pF )
  ////           _______
                    |
                    |
                    |______________    <--- 70.7V @ 1KHz
     antenna        |              |
   (metal plate) ___|___           \
                          10pF     /  16.7 Megohm
                 _______           \
                    |              /
                    |______________|
                   _|_
                  ////

The problem with the above system is that empty space acts like a voltage
divider.  If the sky has 10 Megavolts, and the metal plate is a few feet
above the surface of the ground, then the plate only has a relatively tiny
voltage.  Current is tiny, so wattage is also tiny.


Now lets add a tuned circuit:

  __________  -->
 | 10 MVolt |_______
 | @ 1KHz   |       |
 |__________|       |
    |            ___|___     Capacitance from ionosphere to plate
   _|_                       ( very small, say 1/10,000 pF )
  ////           _______
                    |
                    |
                    |__________________________    <- 10 Megavolt!
                    |              |           |
    antenna         |               \_         |
   (metal plate) ___|___            <_>      __|__
                          10pF      <_> L    _____  C
                 _______            <_>        |
                    |               <_>        |
                    |               /          |
                    |______________|___________|
                    |
                   _|_
                  ////


We can ignore the 10pF antenna capacitance because it parallels the large
resonator capacitance.  If the LC circuit is right on resonance, how high
will the voltage rise?  To ten megavolts!  At resonance, the tuned circuit
looks like an infinite resistor.  If the coil resistance is very small (Q
is incredibly high) then the voltage on the tuned circuit will rise until
it reaches the same voltage as the transmitter.  Weird!  If our antenna is
a superconductive Tesla coil's secondary, we might actually see the output
voltage grow to the megavolt range. 

However, voltage is not energy, and it might take months to build up that
much voltage an ideal resonator.  Let's put a resistor across the tuned
circuit so we create an actual energy flow and drag the voltage down to,
say, .707 of the unloaded voltage.  That's 16.7 Megohms again.  Power
output from the receiver is now THREE MEGAWATTS?!!!!!  Oh come on.  That's
silly.  If that was right then we could tune a passive Tesla coil to the
frequency of an AM radio transmitter, and when we hit the right spot, the
kilovolts would appear on the coil, and the wire would burst into flame.
Where's my mistake?

I need to type this into a CAD program (obviously my analog skills are
weak.)  In any case, I see that there's definitely something to this
stuff.  In our earlier resistive antenna circuit, a small amount of "real
power" did flow through the capacitance of the sky while on its way to the
metal plate and the resistor.  If the resistor's voltage could oscillate
hugely, and if it had the right phase compared to the tiny displacement
current coming from the transmitter, then we would obtain a major increase
in energy flow.  Same current, but much larger voltage, so wattage is
increased.  The voltage-divider problem in the non-resonant resistive
receiver would no longer apply, and the output voltage would no longer be
so low.  Things would act differently.  The current between transmitter
and receiver might still be microamps, but if the tuned circuit can play
around with high voltage in the system, then it can change the energy
throughput.  Ah, that's a way to look at it: by putting a big AC voltage
on the tuned circuit and adjusting its phase in relation to the tiny
incoming current, we can "suck" E x B wattage from the transmitter.  It
works this way with conventional coil/capacitor circuits, and it still
should work even when one of the capacitors is made up of many feet of
empty space. 

If we used a loop antenna instead of a metal plate, then the current in
the loop should perform a similar task: the current should grow huge and
produce a large, volume-filling magnetic field.  If the phase is correct,
it should "suck" energy from the transmitter (or from the local fields of
the incoming EM waves.)  It obeys circuit-physics, not the physics of EM
waves in space.  The volume adjacent to any antenna obeys a combination of
circuit-physics and wave-physics, and I've never quite understood how it
works.  Now it looks like there were interesting things hidden there. 
Variable-size antennas with no long wires! 

The "energy grabbing" effect appears to be limited.  It's a near-field
effect.  It could only operate within about a wavelength of a coil or
capacitor, or between the peaks of a propagating EM wave.  In other words,
the presence of a tuned circuit can increase the "effective size" of a
tiny antenna until it resembles a half-wave dipole antenna.  It might be
easier to simply a half-wave dipole in the first place.  Normally we
would.  But whenever the dipole would end up very large (like at 1KHz, or
even 550KHz), then a tuned coil would behave like a much larger antenna. 

In hindsight the above seems somewhat obvious, but why have I never heard
of this before?  Do radio people know that short resonant antennas with
huge EM fields act like long antennas having fields of usual strength?  Do
physicists know how tiny atoms can radiate the huge wavelengths associated
with light waves?  Portable AM radios use loop antennas, and they've
always been this way.  Do the designers of the previous century know
something that we don't? 

(Now I guess I need to go make a high-Q tuned circuit and set it to the
frequency of an AM radio station.  Maybe I can light up an LED!  With a
big coil which resonates at 60Hz, maybe I can magnetically grab some AC
power?) 


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 30 15:02:04 1999
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From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick@highsurf.com>
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I did some calculations years ago on simple tetrahedral constructions using
carbon fiber compression tubes and mylar skin for an evacuated 'inside out'
balloon. The pressure of the air is enormous, and for any volume at all the
forces are huge and the lift still tiny. It looked like it would marginally
work for a structure a foot or so across, maybe. It came out right at the
compression strength of tubes strong enough to support the skin yet light
enough to allow the whole thing to lift in a good internal vacuum.

A sphere would indeed be more efficient, but it would have to be extremely
thin and flawless. I never did the calcs on a sphere because of the
difficulty of building such perfect and thin laminations from real fiber and
resins.

All in all a rubber bag of helium is a lot easier.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 30 16:00:59 1999
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To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Tesla's power receiver
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Heyyyyyy...  This "flopping e-fields" power interception idea might apply
to DC as well.  If the huge EM fields of a resonant circuit can reach out
and act like propellor blades which are spun by passing energy waves, (a
resonant "ether-wave waterwheel") would the same thing happen with a
pulsed DC circuit?

Suppose I place an antenna out in the 100 volt/meter sky field outdoors,
and connect it to a resonant circuit at 100Hz.  If I suddenly short the
antenna to ground, the resonant circuit will now be ringing, and I can use
the AC 100Hz energy to drive a tiny load.  If I repeatedly short the
antenna at exactly 100Hz, and the Q of the tuned circuit is very large,
then the voltage of the waveform in the tuned circuit will build up and
up.

The question is, am I extracting more energy than normal from the
sky-field?  Is the increased pulsed-AC voltage interacting with the tiny
DC current from the sky-leakage, and giving a larger wattage?  Or am I
simply creating a DC-to-AC convertor, and not getting any more energy than
the DC microwatts we'd expect from any insulated antenna?  Maybe I need to
set things up so that the antenna becomes highly charged with the same
polarity as the incoming charge-flow.  If the tiny current is the same,
then if the DC voltage of the antenna is large with respect to ground,
then more energy would be received than if the antenna was sitting down at
100 volts DC.


I've heard rumors that antennas, if they have DC high voltage placed on
them, and if they are connected to ground through a spark gap, will act as
free-energy devices.  Maybe the key to this is to use a bare wire, do it
outside, and connect the antenna to a resonant circuit (such as the
secondary of a flyback transformer.)  If the spark-gap fires at the same
frequency as the tuned circuit, perhaps we can persuade it to "suck"
wattage out of the sky. 


((((((((((((((((((((( ( (  (   (    (O)    )   )  ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty                                  SCIENCE HOBBYIST website
billb@eskimo.com                                  http://www.amasci.com
EE/programmer/sci-exhibits          science projects, tesla, weird science
Seattle, WA   206-781-3320          freenrg-L taoshum-L vortex-L webhead-L


From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 30 17:49:14 1999
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Subject: Re: Tesla & long antennas
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At 11:15 AM 7/30/99 -0700, Bill wrote:
>On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Dave Dameron wrote:
>
>> One could have a setup where a regen. receiver, not oscillating, acted as a
>> transmitter and the transmitter the receiver. The receiver was adjusted
>> _just_ before oscillation so it acted as a "Q multiplier" or "black hole"
>> device to conteract the resistance in the antenna tuning circuit. If this
>> was switched on/off, the loading of the nearby transmitter could be
>> changed. An explanation is high "Q" circuits need very little coupling for
>> optimum energy transfer. I don't see how Tesla could have done this about
>> 1900 before vacuum tube amplifiers?
>
>A high-Q passive resonator would do the same, no? 
Yes. For inductive coupling, the coupling coefficient = 1/sqrt(Q1Q2)
where Q1 is the loaded transmitter Q and Q2 is the loaded receiver Q.
I guess this is the netherworld of inductive/near field coupling.
-Dave

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 30 18:03:19 1999
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From: "Aris" <avd@wirehub.nl>
To: <freenrg-l@eskimo.com>
References: <199907301801.SM00234@[192.168.0.2]>
Subject: Re: a flying hybrid....(& "pretty park"-viruswarning)
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 03:05:28 +0200
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> All in all a rubber bag of helium is a lot easier.

But less fun!!

I agree with difficulties in designing, to lift 200kgs, quite a lot cubic
meters of helium are required... Just like Da Vinci I like to get
inspired by nature, a ray....(I hope this is the correct word for a
special brand fish).. This shape combines best volume, surface,
aerodynamics and "style"...

Building a vacuum construction, seems very risky to me!! I prefer not
looking like Arnold, in Total Recall, after an collision and implosion!!
A kevlar hull, filled with 1,2 bar helium, seems quite strong and light...
If it is possible to vapourize this solar-"foil"-crystal directly on the
hull
we could save some weight on plastics... Ofcourse Jean Louise
propulsion system would be the best, I miss some data about the
efficiency and wheigt, otherwise an old fashion carbonprop, fixed at
the rear should work to... The pilot sits in front and his (her) chair can
be connected with a balloon inside the craft so no problems with the
safetyrules, and don't forget a gas-release incase the safetyballoon!!

Aris...

> > If you receive an e-mail message with an attachment called
> > 'Pretty Park.exe', please leave this message unopened and REMOVE
> > it immediately. If you open the attachment, it will send itself
> > to all e-mail addresses in your address book. OUTLOOK users are
> > especially vulnerable. Take no risk: REMOVE the message
> > immediately.
> >



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 30 18:28:38 1999
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From: "Harvey Norris" <tesla4@excite.com>
To: hb9abx@datacomm.ch
Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Physics 122
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On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:47:09 +0200, Felix Meyer wrote:

> Harvey Norris schrieb:
> > 
> > This is a good refresher course for all of us who wonder why we didnt
pay
> > attention in college when and if we got there.
> > 
> > http://maxwell.byu.edu/~spencerr/websum122/web.html
> > 
> > ________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> Please check the address:
Sorry, I left an m out, try
http://maxwell.byu.edu/~spencerr/websumm/web.html





________________________________________________________________
Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com
Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 30 18:31:16 1999
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On Fri, 30 Jul 1999 21:47:09 +0200, Felix Meyer wrote:

> Harvey Norris schrieb:
> > 
> > This is a good refresher course for all of us who wonder why we didnt
pay
> > attention in college when and if we got there.
> > 
> > http://maxwell.byu.edu/~spencerr/websum122/web.html
> > 
> > ________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> Please check the address:
Sorry I left an m out, try
http://maxwell.byu.edu/~spencerr/websumm122/web.html





________________________________________________________________
Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com
Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 30 20:01:35 1999
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From: "Rick Monteverde" <rick@highsurf.com>
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Aris -

> But less fun!!

<snip>

Yes. Also, there's the slight possibility that a HV gradient across all that
inert dielectric gas in a helium rig might create a Biefeld Brown thrust, if
such a force exists.

My guess on all these slow moving black triangle UFO sightings like Art
Bell's is that we're seeing this technology in operation already by USAF or
somebody similar. I'm less certain though when I read credible reports of
these things suddenly accelerating to ridiculously high speeds, which
indicate something far more advanced than just an ionic wind powered
dirigible of novel design, although that would still be pretty cool.

- Rick Monteverde
Honolulu, HI

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 30 20:22:33 1999
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From: HLafonte@aol.com
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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 23:21:21 EDT
Subject: Will this make Ecklin device work?
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Hello all,
I have designed what I think will make the Ecklin device operate as a true 
overunity device. Other designs that I and others have designed over the 
years I believe will benefit also. The rotating bar that diverts the flux in 
the Ecklin device has a basic flaw as I see it. When the bar is crossing 
between pole faces of the permanent magnet and the iron that has the coil 
wrapped around it, the flux moves in an incorrect fashion. What I see 
happening is the bar diverts the flux thru it's length and in the process 
flux that starts collapsing around the coil induces a current in the coil 
that tries to maintain the flux at a constant strength, this attempts to pull 
the flux back directly across the pole faces away from the length of the bar 
to the outer most ends of the bar. Then when the magnetic field around the 
flux has fully collapsed, the permanent magnet is free to pass it's full 
strength (flux) thru the length of the bar. This causes the bar to require 
more force to remove it from the pole faces than the force that was available 
to pull it to the pole faces. My bar design should solve this problem. It has 
two bars spaced apart by a non-magnetic material, one bar for the permanent 
magnet flux, one for the flux from the coil. This allows both flux sources 
the pass thru the diverter bars full length, not the ends of the bars. Then 
when the bars leave the pole faces the force required is less than the force 
that attracted them to the pole faces. I have a drawing of the double bar 
device as the first drawing on my web site. Listed below is the address, I 
will be building this and my other device on my site as money and time 
permit. Anyone wishing to build the double bar and incorporate it into an 
Ecklin or other device, please let me know of your progress or if you would 
like any help. Remember that two bars pull as the bars approach the pole 
faces, but only one has flux in it as the bars leave the pole faces. Coil 
circuit is open as bars leave the pole faces for this design test.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
 <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/hlafonte/index.html">LaFonte Research site 
1</A>   or    http://hometown.aol.com/hlafonte/index.html

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 30 22:50:56 1999
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From: HLafonte@aol.com
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Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 01:49:49 EDT
Subject: Ecklin link added to site, see end of post
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Hello all,
I have designed what I think will make the Ecklin device operate as a true 
overunity device. Other designs that I and others have designed over the 
years I believe will benefit also. The rotating bar that diverts the flux in 
the Ecklin device has a basic flaw as I see it. When the bar is crossing 
between pole faces of the permanent magnet and the iron that has the coil 
wrapped around it, the flux moves in an incorrect fashion. What I see 
happening is the bar diverts the flux thru it's length and in the process 
flux that starts collapsing around the coil induces a current in the coil 
that tries to maintain the flux at a constant strength, this attempts to pull 
the flux back directly across the pole faces away from the length of the bar 
to the outer most ends of the bar. Then when the magnetic field around the 
coil has fully collapsed, the permanent magnet is free to pass it's full 
strength (flux) thru the length of the bar. This causes the bar to require 
more force to remove it from the pole faces than the force that was available 
to pull it to the pole faces. My bar design should solve this problem. It has 
two bars spaced apart by a non-magnetic material, one bar for the permanent 
magnet flux, one for the flux from the coil. This allows both flux sources 
the pass thru the diverter bars full length, not the ends of the bars. Then 
when the bars leave the pole faces the force required is less than the force 
that attracted them to the pole faces. I have a drawing of the double bar 
device as the first drawing on my web site. Listed below is the address, I 
will be building this and my other device on my site as money and time 
permit. Anyone wishing to build the double bar and incorporate it into an 
Ecklin or other device, please let me know of your progress or if you would 
like any help. Remember that two bars pull as the bars approach the pole 
faces, but only one has flux in it as the bars leave the pole faces. Coil 
circuit is open as bars leave the pole faces for this design test.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte
<A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/hlafonte/index.html">LaFonte Research site 
1</A>   or    http://hometown.aol.com/hlafonte/index.html
For illustrations of Ecklin device with balance system go to
<A HREF="http://web.triton.net/edkl/pfeul/sag/index.htm">PFEUL - Stationary 
Armature Generator</A> or  
http://web.triton.net/edkl/pfeul/sag/index.htm

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 30 22:54:51 1999
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Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 01:48:50 -0400
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From: LR <LR@SoftHome.net>
Subject: Reply to Erik comments about David Hamel Connection Web site
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Hi Erik and all!

=========================
David Hamel Connection Web site (new address):
http://free.prohosting.com/~hamel/
=========================


At 19:28 20-07-99 -0700, you wrote:
>You arent missing anything...it's all pseudo-scientific mush!

If you know David Hamel story, you probably know he don't get all his
informations in a "scientific way".  All informations from David Hamel, by
definition, are not "scientific" like we define it today.  Then, I agree with
you on that point.  You are 100% free to ignore David Hamel and what he is
doing if you are not confortable with this fact :).


> What about the saucer?

David did not give me a "message" about his spaceship he build now.  But I will
ask him if he want to tell something about his main goal with his spaceship. 
On what I know (and on what I saw...), I can tell you David has nearly finished
the "main motor" (if we can call this a "motor") of his spaceship.  He will
"start" this section of his spaceship in a very near future - and of course,
this "motor" work only with "free energy".  To complete the whole spaceship, he
will need granite, A LOT of granite because the spaceship need a "shell" to go
into space...  Once completed, the spaceship will be big, VERY BIG (with the
final "granite shell").


> Can he *prove* it works?

If you know David Hamel story and what is his own main goal, then you will
conclude that this 75 years old man have nothing to prove.


> What about Project Magnet? ..no results?

By this comment, I see you probably don't know much about David.  Please
contact Pierre Sinclaire - it's his own company - if you want to discuss about
his "Project Magnet Inc" company.  David cannot answer any questions about
Pierre Sinclaire project.  David Hamel (and me) have nothing to do with this
company.  Please contact Pierre Sinclaire if you have complaints about his own
project.


> Then it doesnt matter! This list is about FREE ENERGY..not New
> Age horse-fritters!

Let me suggest you this:  please take the time to make your own research to
learn more about this man.  You will discover why all David Hamel informations
& devices are related to "free energy" (and "anti-gravity").



Have a nice day!
Louis :)))))))))))





From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 30 22:55:01 1999
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From: LR <LR@SoftHome.net>
Subject: David Hamel Connection Web site - new address
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Hi all !!

Take note that the "David Hamel Connection" WEB site have moved to a new server
because the old one was a little bit too slow.

Here is the new WEB address:
http://free.prohosting.com/~hamel/

Also, the message "Where are the secrets in all Pyramids, that nobody has found
until now" is now completed with some informations about "the isotope line of
time" (or "the tesseract of time" like David Hamel call it also).  This message
is also related to "free energy" and "anti-gravity" devices that Anciens
Epytians peoples used 6000 years ago...  This kind of technologies was VERY
common in that time...  But, for David Hamel, this is not the main goal of this
message; it's to tell you where to find new informations that are "hidden" in
the Epytians pyramids, now.

I wish you good reading!!!
Louis :))))))



From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Fri Jul 30 23:30:34 1999
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From: "Timothy Flytcher" <flytch@hotmail.com>
To: freenrg-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: Reply to Erik comments about David Hamel Connection Web site
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 23:29:46 PDT
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Hi All...
> >You arent missing anything...it's all pseudo-scientific mush!
>
>If you know David Hamel story, you probably know he don't get all his
>informations in a "scientific way".

I have studied the pyramids for years and have found that 99% of the 
"scientists" are not looking for truth... and 80% have never even been 
there!!!! so David Hamel is in good company...

good night :)
Timothy...


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Jul 31 10:06:36 1999
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Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 12:43:37 -0400
From: "Bruce A. Perreault" <nuenergy@cyberportal.net>
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William Beaty wrote:

I've heard rumors that antennas, if they have DC high voltage placed on
them, and if they are connected to ground through a spark gap, will act
as
free-energy devices.  Maybe the key to this is to use a bare wire, do it
outside, and connect the antenna to a resonant circuit (such as the
secondary of a flyback transformer.)  If the spark-gap fires at the same
frequency as the tuned circuit, perhaps we can persuade it to "suck"
wattage out of the sky. 


Bruce A. Perreault responds:

Bill, surely you attended one of my lectures presented at last
weeks Exotic Research conference.

I revealed for the first time that the T.H. Moray Radiant Energy
device was drawing power from lightning stikes. Lightning strikes
occur one-hundred times each second randomly located somewhere on
the planet, generating a tremendous amount of oscillating electrical
energy. The total energy per lightning discharge is approximately
two million-million watts, now times this by 100, and here you have
one tremendous source of power.

The radiant energy device is in tune with "storm frequency." This is
right around 500Khz. I pointed out at my lectures how Moray replaced
the crystal in a crystal radio with his "Swedish stone" and got
wonderful radio reception. He then relaced the stone with a piece of
his treated lead (Pb) and was able to get loud audio from a special
speaker, that I referred to as a "super-unity speaker." This was done
without batteries. I brought one of these 1920s speaker to the
conference,
with back cover removed and allowed people to see that this special
speaker
took advantage of the neutral center between a horseshoe type magnet.
In fact, everything demonstrated was all out in the open, nothing was
hidden.
The main point that I was getting across was that the Swedish stone and
treated lead (Pb) were resonate in the A.M. broadcast range. I also
pointed
out that it was the electrostatic radio frequency and not the
electromagnetic
frequency that Moray's device was drawing power from. Electromagnetic
energy
losses power from the source very quickly. This is why present day radio 
receivers need to amplify received signals. However, electrostatic
energy from
lightning surges travel through the planets surface. There is little
resistance
to this form of energy. Nikola Tesla demonstrated this with his
Magnifying
Transmitter. Many people do not know this but his power transmission was
actually
pulsed d.c. The earth offers practically no electrical resistance to
this energy
because it is d.c. Taking this a step further we can see how energy can
be
obtained from cloud to ground discharges.

So, you ask, how is this "Cosmic Energy" as T.H. Moray stated that this
was the
source of energy that his device drew from? I will refer the reader the
diagram
proved by this link,

http://www.cyberportal.net/nuenergy/cosmo.htm

In this diagram you can see that the Sun is the source of energy.
It expels the "Cosmic Rays." They are actually high-speed protons
propelled
from the Sun as by-products of its nuclear reactions. So, the radiant
energy
device a unique way to harness solar energy. Yes, indeed, it is a very
old
source of energy as stated by Moray.

The bottem line is how to harness this source of "Cosmic" power. What is
needed is a device that will tune into the source. For detailed
information
on this read page 10 in my "Radiant Energy Capture Research Guide." This
is
available for free at,

http://www.cyberportal.net/nuenergy/manual.pdf

On page 9 of the same reference, Figure #3, shows a basic passive
circuit.
What I demonstrated at this last conference included an active circuit
added
to this basic circuit that actually draws in the energy pretty much like
a
compressor in your air-conditioner draws in heat from the surrounding
air.
The difference is that our device draws in ions and is solidstate.

One other note before I close this post. For almost fifteen years now I
have
thought that the radiant energy device used radioactive material as its
main
source of power. This last April I attended Tom Valone's Future Energy
Conference
in Washington, D.C. While I was done there I followed a lead and
privately viewed
certained documents created by a fellow that claimed to have been given
to him
by the only person who Moray revealed how his device actually worked.
The diagram
given in this post was actually from this document, redrawn for clarity.
This
opened a whole new door to my research. From what I now know, the
radioactive
material used in the Moray tubes was not the source of power but was the 
"carrying current," or what ionized the tubes. I light of this, I have
been 
working with modern semiconductors that may replace Moray's radioactive
detector.
Additionally, the "star-mode" that Calvin Bahlmann and myself have
discovered show
promise of replacing Moray's switching tubes as shown in Figure #3 on
page 9.

I will continue to release progress on this mode of power so long as
credit
is given to my work and I don't see others claiming my work as their
own.


        Warm Regards, Bruce A. Perreault

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Jul 31 15:49:47 1999
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From: HLafonte@aol.com
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Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 18:48:51 EDT
Subject: Correction to Ecklin post (Butch)
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Hi all,
My post yesterday gave a description of the operation of the Ecklin device, 
in fact it was a description of the device I designed and put on my web site 
(first picture). The flux in the  Ecklin device acts in a different way in 
that as the diverter bar moves between the pole faces a magnetic field 
expands around the coil rather than collapsing as in my design. The two sided 
bar design of mine still helps in the Ecklin device as it isolates flux of 
opposite polarity from the permanent magnet.
Thanks,
Butch LaFonte

From freenrg-l-request@eskimo.com  Sat Jul 31 21:57:31 1999
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From: "Harvey Norris" <tesla4@excite.com>
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Subject: Lenz Law Violation
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  In a private correspondence to Stephen Hartmann I meant to save to freenrg
as a note to interest to others, but I sent it off without saving it.
Perhaps he can send this to the group.

  In the meanwhile I am reposting a much earlier entree entitled "Magnetic
Compression" which has to do with a conceptial lenz law violation.

I will describe a method of magnetic compression using 4 copper magnetic
coils. These each contain 20,000 winds of 23 gauge wire @ 1000 ohms. I do
not know if this same method is possible using ferromagnetic coils. In any
case I am quite surprised that Joseph Newman, the king of all these
discoveries has made no mention of it.
     About 1992  I put 4 of these coils in this described formation and was
able to rotate a 50 lb magnet about 450 rpm on 70 watts draw. I did not
consider this significant because once a load would be attached this rpm
would rapidly drop and I looked at the tremendous obstacles involved with
any copper magnetic motor. I did not pursue this matter any further after
that because I realized the only thing to be gained was experimental
information and nothing about a motor approach was practical.
     At this point in time I became fascinated with Tesla's work and went
on
a different tangent of making huge coils and knocking out the power by
accident.
      And as time goes by I wonder if anything at all is by accident. But
this was one of them.
     Now the first thing one knows about Newman coils is that they work
from
side action which delivers a weaker force than a polar reaction between a
air core coil and the magnet. So looking at the simplest model it is
presumed that 2 side coils could be used instead of one to increase the
force on the rotating magnet, and experiment easily shows this to be true.
Now the coils I had were 13 in high and without thinking I saved until I
could get 2 more without thinking.
     Of course one recognizes that 50% of the strongest force from the
magnetic interaction of the coils is missing in rotation on this simple 2
coil side model and so the next logical progression is to make a 4 coil
system in which 2 coils only  turn on during that 50% period of max
torque.{I am reffering to the 90 degree position of the magnet to the coil}
So when the magnet rotates 90 degrees another system of two coils turns on
ect. So one ends up with a box looking field coil configuration in which
the
2 coils that can most effectively rotate the magnet are turned on when they
are needed by the commutator. I reckon that anyone who wanted to improve
newman design would first try something like this, so thats what my
thinking
was...
     Now the magnetic rotor was only 9 1/2 inch long so when the box
arrangement was concieved with 13 in length coils the magnet could not be
close to the coils in this arrangement. The dimensions of the coil had not
been preconcieved< one gets the only thing industry will supply for the
cheapest cost considerations...
    So an accidental experimental field design was attempted because of
these monumental oversights on design where two of the coils would be
turned
around in which the 7 in diameter poles of the coil could face the rotating
magnet along with the 13 inch sides so that the magnet could sweep by all
coils in close proxity in what we might call this polar -side hybrid field
coil arrangement.
     The very first thing that was noticed about this field coil
arrangement
was that when the magnet was in a position that gave torque from the side
model (poles facing side coils), and the extra pole coils were turned on{
that ordinarily would act as a weak force in the same direction}; instead
of
these two predicted forces acting in unison a CANCELLATION force acted
instead!! This showed as a magnetically dead or neutral action.
     So obviously the next modification made was to determine what would
happen if one of these sets were then reversed in polarity. It was then
found that the STRONGEST torque of all positions of the magnetic rotor than
existed at the side position and NOT the polar which is what every one
assumes with biblical reverance from past experience and models.
      In fact when the reverse application was made and the rotor was spun
and the generator action imposed on the coils in series were observed on an
oscilloscope it resembled a square wave much more than a sine.
      I would not submit such a fact if it were untrue, there would be no
reason for it. For 8 years I have seen no possible application of such a
field arrangement, and generally see no reason for wasting time, time that
could be increasingly important in these days for other lines of thinking.
What it does mean however is that a magnetic compression occurs making the
side action what it is. This implies that polarity change via side coil
action could be simply accomplished by shutting off the polar coils for 180
of magnet travel. I tried this but it did not rotate the magnet very well
because when the pole coil fields collapse it interferes significantly with
the normal side coil. Or thats just my opinion of the observed results.
    I hope to have the time to send this VHS tape record of operation to
those I promised to see it, but I am very busy with things and will try to
start making recordings of this soon. HDN

Before making further comments on where the lenz law violation occurs, it is
probably prudent to see if I dont have to repeat myself too many times and a
follow up letter might be sent by Stephen Hartman that I sent him.

But it is probably good that Lenz Law should be drummed into our heads so
that every free energy enthusiast can know what mother nature has prepared
against us.

Lenz Law is very simple, it only means that when a changing magnetic field
induces an electrical effect; that electrical effect in turn creates a
magnetic field that opposes the magnetic field that created it. This applies
to rotating magnets that cause a flux change of density with a coil, also of
course in transformers and motors as a counter or back emf.

What this further implies is that an effect that would be opposite to lenz
law would be truly unreasonable in that a coil producing energy from the
flux change of a rotating magnet would produce instead of a magnetic field
opposing effect, a magnetic field aiding effect!

Yet this is exactly what I have shown by experimentation 10 years ago in
1989 or 1990, It was not 1992 in that the above document was carelessly
written by myself, and I must have been mistaken.
(Have we ever heard that before,Bruce?)

About that time professor Newman was proclaiming the proclivities of
blinking the power into a copper magnetic coil of huge inductance and having
a magnet rotor on the side interact in a free energy manner.
Of course I was a great believer, but perhaps not as gullible as the great
number of followers. In establishing my own project I quickly grew to
disagree with the advise given to me by others who simply wanted to verbatim
copy what he had already done. So it turns out that maybe he hasnt done
much. Maybe he is resting on his laurels or something like that. I think he
will not succeed in his present venture.

Getting quite off topic here let me again reiterate the facts;
1)The reaction of a magnet on a rotor to a coil interacting on the side is
weak compared to that of a coil interacting in a polar form. If the magnet
width is significant compared to the width of the coil, a sort of double
reversal takes place as a cancellation effect when a magnet is spun near the
area of a coils poles.(polar interaction) This represents the actual
crossing of magnetic field lines from the magnet transverse to the windings
of the coil,similar to the same effect produced on the side coil model.

2) Newman supposed that to circumvent the traditional lenz law effects this
crossing of field lines across wires should be minimized by the russian
motto "bigger is better". Thus a football field size model would allow
this??? He was pointing to the impossible, and yet people agreed with him.
Anyone working with tesla coils knows the limitation of distance, and even a
textbook will discern the appropriate dropoff of area of flux change divided
by area of encompassed loop to give the impressed emf. So what if the flux
lines dont cross the wire, the dropoff of impressed voltage corresponds to
the area ratio. Not a very good way to circumvent lenz law.

3) The superimposition of a polar model with the side model where each model
comprises two coils shows that the vector addition of magnetic fields
expected at 90 interaction with the side coils DOES NOT PRODUCE THAT EFFECT,
IT PRODUCES THE OPPOSITE EFFECT OF MAGNETIC CANCELLATION.

4) FURTHERMORE WHEN THE FIELDS ACT IN THE REVERSE COMBINATION DENOTED AS
MAGNETIC COMPRESSION THE POLARITY OF THE SIDE COILS ARE OPPOSITE TO THAT
NORMALLY USED TO DRIVE AND REPEL THE MAGNET INTO AND OUT OF THE CLOSEST
PROXIMITY OF ITS STRONGEST TORQUE WHEN THESE COILS ACT IN THEIR NORMAL SIDE
ACTION. THIS THEN IMPLIES THAT WHEN THE SIDE COILS ARE CONSIDERED SEPARATE
FROM THE WHOLE PICTURE,THE LENZ LAW CONSIDERATIONS ARE ALSO OPPOSITE,AND AS
SUCH ITS OPERATION AS A REVERSE PRINCIPLE SHOULD SHOW THIS.

5)But because forward emf can never exist as a reality in excess to the back
emf caused by lenz law,and because these coils are connected in series with
the polar coils, when the device is run as a generator it produces an answer
as a square type wave containing more output energy than the traditional
sine wave.

6) Conversely the operation of a side model known as the NEWMAN MODEL should
have been interfaced with the known stronger effect of the POLAR MODEL,
where instead of blinking effect being employed on the side coils as Newman
used, the blinking could be used on the polar model as that modulator. In
turn the magnetic effect on the rotor would be increased beyond the actions
of both previous models,and an actual exploration of lenz law violation
could most effectively exploited.

Sincere in exploration; HDN




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