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SHOWDOWN The ELO Mailing List Digest Issue #009 October 20, 1997 In this issue: Various ELO shinadigins ELO "things" Bev's radio interview More on the release (or not) of Jeff's album Jeff and the Beatles songs 'E was in the Battle lookin' fer a li'l port & brandy Eric's diary updated Fan's letters to Eric New Kelly Groucutt radio interview New ELO Part II tour dates on the Web Willy Nilly! ============================================================ ALL PUBLIC RESPONSES TO ARTICLES ON THIS LIST SHOULD BE SENT TO THE TALK LIST ADDRESS: elo-list@eskimo.com ============================================================ Subject: Various ELO shinadigins Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:19:06 -0500 (CDT) From: Adam John Vogt Rather than quote each post one by one, I'll ditch the quoting and just go by memory: I managed to get Jeff's disco single a year ago from Vinylvendors (expensive stuff, but great selection!: www.vinylvendors.com) and the first time I heard it I was like, "what the hell is this?" But after the initial shock, I really liked both songs, maybe "Goin'Down To Rio" better because its so, what's the word, groovy! (I kind of like disco, being the proud owner of a second-hand Saturday Night Fever sndtrk.) LIVIN' THING supposidly appears on the soundtrack for "Boogie Nights", along with other 70's favorites. Matthew Sweet, who's "Blue Sky On Mars" is for me the best '97 CD so far, performs DO YA on the new Late Night with Conan O'Brian best-of CD. I managed to listen to an advance copy of it at the college station I announce on a little, and its a little rough, but good, and pretty true to the original. I read in an interview with Sweet that the first album he ever bought was A NEW WORLD RECORD. If I recall right (I'm an avid Billboard reader) Free As a Bird peaked at #6 on the US charts while Real Love debuted and peaked at #11. I'm lucky that the university I'm at has a 20 year stockpile of Billboards, so I know that ARMCHAIR THEATRE spent 9 weeks on the top 200, peaking in its 2nd week at #83. Not too good, but better than Part 2, who hasn't appeared on ANY chart here even for a week! Inexplicable! Propostorous! Weird! Actually once I heard "For the Love of a Woman" over the intercom while in a Sears department store, for what THAT's worth. ********** Subject: Re: Various ELO shinadigins Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 14:01:44 -0700 From: Gallandro >Matthew Sweet ... performs DO YA on the new Late Night with Conan O'Brian >best-of CD. I managed to listen to an advance copy of it... and its a >little rough, but good, and pretty true to the original. I read in an >interview with Sweet that the first album he ever bought was A NEW WORLD >RECORD. You probably know (although Matthew may not :) that the original "Do Ya" was not from A New World Record, nor, in fact, any ELO album. >better than Part 2, who hasn't appeared on ANY chart here even for a week! >Inexplicable! Actally, I can explain it easily in three words: Pro Mo Tion. >Actually once I heard "For the Love of a Woman" over the intercom while in >a Sears department store, for what THAT's worth. I've heard Part II tracks in department stores twice. At least one of them was "For the love of a woman"; the other may have been as well. I don't recall for sure. I just remembered being surprised at hearing Part II tracks from anyplace other than my CD player. (This was back when they only had one album out.) ********** Subject: Things Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:45:48 +0100 From: Euan Wilson Hi, It's nice to see an active list and plenty of Part II bashing, notice its the girlies coming to their defence. I've no idea why ? ;) [not had any flames directed at me in awhile] Stephen seems to be enjoying his UK trip, but check when Bruce is in the UK, you lot, my dates and your don't tally. Now onto the subject, I played Stephen a number of ELO related tracks last night, and a number he'd never heard about so ..... Does anyone else have another source that states that Jeff was on Brain Wilson's Spirit of Rock'n'roll song ? (Its from his second unreleased album). My source is a UK mag called Mojo which basically did a review of the album a couple of years ago and quoted that Jeff and Tom Petty were part of the all-star choir. The song is also mentioned in the last Record Collector (Dylan article). (its a good album, much better than the first one) ********** Subject: Bev's Radio Interview Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:46:09 +0100 From: John Kilcline Hi All, An exclusive scoop from our friend Graham Vine of Mellow 1557 An interview with Bev just before the Hastings gig on the current UK tour http://www.elopart2.demon.co.uk/radios.html Enjoy ********** Subject: Re: Jeff Solo PART II (the critics be damned!) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:26:12 -0400 From: barton hello all, I'm new to the list and have been lurking a bit. I'm nowhere as erudite on this subject as y'all, but since I'm here to learn, that's probably all for the best. it's also probably for the best as that means I won't surface too frequently. (and I bet there will be times y'all are tempted to remind me of this) I am fascinated by politics, and by record company politics especially, so I really liked the discussion of the timing of the release of Jeff's album. and I'm completely taken with the idea that a performer might need to reinvent him/herself to embark on a solo career. in fact, I'm so taken by it that I just might appropriate it for myself and use it on some other lists I'm on which could easily take some lessons from the discussion I've read here. btw, in light of Abby's comment: > Well, that's an opinion, not a fact. Obviously, it's an opinion held by I should state that all of the preceeding is an opinion. except that it is a fact that it is my opinion. so now I'm feeling rather confused. which is also a fact, and unfortunately, also a fact of my life. oh, and for what it's worth, it's a fact that I like Xanadu. what can I do? it's a link to my misspent musical youth. I know the truth is out there... ********** Subject: Re: Jeff Solo PART II (the critics be damned!) Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 19:51:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Hudson >I've just gotta say something here. That whole thing really steamed >me. (And still does!) Jeff did a *beautiful* job producing "Free As A >Bird." Well, Lynn I'm with you all the way on this one, except for me the one of the two "new" Beatles' songs that really sent a chill down my spine was "Real Love"...the sounds of the opening piano begin the tingling, and although I'm sure the sound is mostly what John actually recorded, I'll bet Jeff added a bit of Pitch Shifting (aka Harmonizing) to that track...and considering the track contained not only the piano but John's voice (since the original was a mono cassette), it's utterly AMAZING that it sounds good at all. I speak with a little bit of experience on the matter formerly belonging to a band of my own and also being a former studio owner/recording engineer. I know that I, nor quite a number of other people that I know in the business could never had pulled off what Jeff did with those old demo tapes. For me it's hats off to Jeff and the 3 remaining Beatles' for getting it all together and getting it worked out (and of course to John for writing and recording the original demos). Those critics that wanted the songs to fail were sadly mistaken on this one! Even I didn't expect much when I'd heard they were re-working old demo's John had done, especially after hearing some of the bootleg's of unreleased Beatles material over the years, since most of it is not that spectacular, or just a little bit different version of something they released anyway. But even with Free as a Bird, I was utterly amazed and impressed by the way those two songs turned out... ...actually, I was hoping they'd come up and say they'd found an entire album's worth of Lennon demos that they were gonna let Jeff and the Fab 3 take a shot at! ********** Subject: Re: Jeff Solo PART II (the critics be damned!) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 13:40:22 -0700 From: Gallandro >and considering the track contained and not only the piano but John's >voice (since the original was a mono cassette), it's utterly AMAZING that >it sounds good at all. [snip] >I know that I, nor quite a number of other people that I know in the >business could never had pulled off what Jeff did with those old demo tapes. A song should be judged by what the song sounds like. You're judging it (at least in part) by comparing it to the original demos. The technical process by which the original tapes were salvaged may have been the most difficult task in the world, that only a handful of producers could have pulled off--but if the songs were weak to start with, the end result is going to be weak. And if someone doesn't like the sound of the production on the final product, it doesn't matter how much of an improvement it was over the original. You're at least partially confusing technical prowess with quality when you (indirectly) accuse critics of not taking the original demos into account. One shouldn't have to hear the demos to appreciate the final product. The final product should be judged on its own merits. ********** Subject: Jeff and the Beatles songs Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 16:48:11 +0000 From: Lynn Hoskins Gallandro wrote: > A song should be judged by what the song sounds like. In a perfect world, this is how songs ought to be judged. Perhaps you could inform the critics of proper judging criteria?? Gallandro, I understand what you're trying to say. Unfortunately, a lot of the critics did not follow this criteria when reviewing the new Beatles songs. Maybe it was just not possible. I believe that Mike brought up the original demos because of the importance placed on them from fans and professionals alike. If you recall, Yoko dug through piles of demos to come up with a couple that sounded the most complete and could be made into whole songs. This was widely talked about. An awful lot of people were familiar with The Lost Lennon Tapes and were pretty excited about what was happening. (Although, a large number of people thought it was morbid. Oh well.) If I recall correctly, I think there was an interview show of some kind where musicians like Keith Richards were asked how they felt about John's demos being turned into Beatles songs. (Keith was real hip to the idea!) What I'm trying to say here is that it was darn near impossible to disregard the demos when judging the songs. Their historical significance was too great. When you know about things like how Ringo had to fight the tears everytime he heard John's voice in the studio, how can you listen to "Free As A Bird" or "Real Love" like you would any other song? What I thought was particularly sad was how many pre-release stories I read that slammed Jeff. These were almost worse then the actual reviews. One article said that Jeff's involvement meant the songs would be nothing more than The Beatles Meets The Willbury's. Nevermind the fact that Paul, George and Ringo asked Jeff to be involved because they were comfortable with his style and felt he understood what John himself might have done with the songs. George Martin oversaw the whole thing. I'm sure if he felt they sounded "too ELO" he would have said something. Many critics had decided before even hearing the songs that they wouldn't be any good. So much for judging a song by what it sounds like. > You're judging it (at least in part) by comparing it to the original > demos. The technical process by which the original tapes were > salvaged may have been the most difficult task in the world, that > only a handful of producers could have pulled off--but if the songs > were weak to start with, the end result is going to be weak. Yeah, I'd certainly agree that they were weak to start with. They weren't finished! Paul had to write the middle eight section because John hadn't gotten that far. There were a lot of things missing. These demos were home recordings - they'd never been in the recording studio. Was the end result "weak"? I don't happen to think so. However, especially in the case of "Real Love," it's impossible for me to forget the demo when I hear the Anthology version. I simply cannot judge this song ONLY by what the finished product sounds like because I am too emotionally involved. Do you think some of the critics might have had the same problem? I do. > You're at least partially confusing technical prowess with quality > when you (indirectly) accuse critics of not taking the original > demos into account. Mike, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you were complaining that the critics didn't take the demos into account. I think you were complaining that they didn't have good taste. Regardless, the critics DID take the original demos into account. That's what they talked about. (That, and how Jeff Lynne was going to ruin them.) And their comments in newspapers and magazines left me dumbfounded. Some of them actually complained that there wasn't enough of John's voice. Uh, what exactly was Jeff supposed to do about that? Hire Madame Sousatzka to get a couple more verses out of John? > One shouldn't have to hear the demos to appreciate the final product. Right, you shouldn't HAVE to hear them. It's a bonus. :-) I can safely say that I would have loved them whether or not I'd heard the demos. I can also say that knowing what Paul, George, Ringo and Jeff had to work with made me appreciate the songs even more. Say what you will about the "sound" that Jeff brings to everything he produces, I was very, very happy with how these songs turned out. The Beatles themselves were very happy, too. I'll take their opinion over what a critic has to say any old day. > The final product should be judged on its own merits. I'm sure Jeff agrees with you. ********** Subject: Jeff and the Beatles songs Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 02:31:04 -0400 From: SERENA TORZ OK, I'm only going to contribute once on this subject, and this is it: Has anybody ever wondered why "Free As A Bird" was never finished? It wasn't because John Lennon's death got in the way, as it was started 3 years before he died. Lennon had 3 years to finish that song, and instead, he shut it away somewhere. To me, it seems patently obvious that he didn't like it very much, and didn't want to finish it, but move on to something else. If he's up there somewhere monitoring its success after being finished, he might be having a good laugh at all the work put in on something that he thought was a bit of a turkey! My theory only, I hasten to add. I must admit, that I also didn't like the record much. I found it rather dreary. As for "Real Love", I much preferred this. This song had actually been finished off by John, and had been released in a different form on the "Imagine" video. It was much more of a 'song' than the above, and sounded much more like Lennon (on FAAB, I thought he sounded like he was on the phone!). As Lennon clearly liked "Real Love" better, I have no such reservations about it. Well, that's all I'm going to say. I expect I'm going to be villified for this, but as this is a discussion group, I felt I couldn't keep it back any longer. ********** Subject: Re: Jeff and the Beatles songs Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:48:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Bruce Dumes On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, SERENA TORZ wrote: > OK, I'm only going to contribute once on this subject, and this is it: All right, I won't expect you to reply, then. :-) > Has anybody ever wondered why "Free As A Bird" was never finished? It > wasn't because John Lennon's death got in the way, as it was started 3 > years before he died. Lennon had 3 years to finish that song, and instead, > he shut it away somewhere. To me, it seems patently obvious that he didn't > like it very much, and didn't want to finish it, but move on to something > else. It seems to me then, that you're not entirely familiar with how John worked. John (and the other fabs as well) would sometimes let songs brew around for years till they figured out the right instruments, mood, lyrics, tempo, etc for it. For example, it's well known that the song which became Jealous Guy was originally written as Child of Nature, written in 1968 while at Maharishi's camp. Paul's "counterpart" to the song was "Mother Nature's Son". It wasn't until several years later that John finally found the right words to fit the beautiful tune. I think Jealous Guy is a highlight on the Imagine album, arguably John's best solo LP. There really are many examples of this happening in the Beatles. I like "Real Love" better too! But we don't know that John considered the version which appeared on the Imagine soundtrack "finished" or better. > As for "Real Love", I much preferred this. This song had actually been > finished off by John, and had been released in a different form on the > "Imagine" video. It was much more of a 'song' than the above, and sounded > much more like Lennon (on FAAB, I thought he sounded like he was on the > phone!). As Lennon clearly liked "Real Love" better, I have no such > reservations about it. This is a gross assumption on your part. It isn't even debatable, it's just an opinion. You can't speak for Mr. Lennon. I'd say that his widow and his mates of 20+ years probably had more insight into what John would've liked than you or me. > Well, that's all I'm going to say. I expect I'm going to be villified for > this, but as this is a discussion group, I felt I couldn't keep it back > any longer. That's fine! I'm not going to vilify you for an opinion; you can think whatever you like. But please be careful not to pretend to know what John would've liked because of what you like. We've got enough of that from Goldman. ********** Subject: 'E was in the Battle lookin' fer a li'l port & brandy Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:34:05 +0000 From: Scott Pierson So... Based on the new insight I have into the Cockney slang... When ELO sang about Nellie taking her bow were they: 1) Actually singing about a lady taking a bow (don't ladies curtsie?) 2) Singing about life taking a bow (someone was dying)? 3) Singing about a poofta bowing about something? Or bowing over something? Hmmmmm..... New realms of intrigue to explore... ********** Subject: Eric's diary Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:24:48 +0100 From: John Kilcline Hi All, Eric's diary has just been updates at http://www.elopart2.demon.co.uk/diary.html Enjoy!! ********** Subject: Fan's letters to Eric Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:36:52 +0100 From: John Kilcline New batch of Eric's fan letters up on the web site!! http://www.elopart2.demon.co.uk/ericlett.html I have taken to putting a little "new" logo at the start of the new batch, hope this will help you all get to the ones you havent read quicker! (the list is getting a tad long!) ********** Subject: New Kelly radio interview Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 22:24:46 +0100 From: John Kilcline Hi all, Phew, hard work this saturday night!!! Yet another excellent radio interview from Graham Vine at Mellow 1557 This time it's Kelly in the spotlight!! http://www.elopart2.demon.co.uk/kelradio.html Thanks to Graham ********** Subject: New Dates for ELO Part II Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 13:24:59 +0100 From: John Kilcline Hi All, In an effort to quench your insatiable appetite for dates for the band. stop the rumour mill!!! A decision has been taken to release dates on the following basis:- All dates on the "Official ELO Part II" web site will have a number as follows:- 1 = ' Now you know what we know' 3 = ' Subject to Production Confirmation' 5 = ' Confirmed date' Obviously, you will not get any sense out of a venue, while it is still at the 1 stage If you book tickets at the 3 stage, there is still a chance of cancellation for all sorts of reasons (stage too small, etc.) Therefore (in an ideal world) the 5 stage is when to safely book tickets!! One of the reasons for this, is to enable you to make a judgement, when you see a promoter advertising a date. If it is not at, the 3 stage, then you really ought not to risk buying tickets, BUT the decision will be yours!! This is an experiment, & will be monitored too see if it helps things. We are here to serve you, so please feel free to reply with comments (only good ones though:-) ********** Subject: Willy-Nilly!! Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 07:08:12 +0000 From: Joe Ramsey barton wrote: > btw, in light of Abby's comment: > > > Well, that's an opinion, not a fact. Obviously, it's an opinion held by > > I should state that all of the preceeding is an opinion. except that it > is a fact that it is my opinion. so now I'm feeling rather confused. > which is also a fact, and unfortunately, also a fact of my life. Dear Barton, Your erudition is apparent with your grasp of this seemingly complicated concept. Once the above is understood, we can all post knowing that it's all *opinion* - and that part of the fun of being on these lists is throwing your opinion out willy-nilly. I'm confused too... Joe PS. Professional sports are evil - whether Rush (and Rod Stewart) digs 'em or not. End of Showdown #009 ********************

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