SMALLnet post344

...Once more it's become necessary to remind those who submit material to SMALLnet: PLEASE DON'T include a copy of the entire Posting that you're responding to, along with your reply!

Doing that makes extra work for me, because SMALLnet Postings are put together "by hand" on a word processing program, and every extraneous line has to be deleted -- one at a time...

It's OK to quote short portions of a Posting, as a reference for your input. But DON'T attach the entire dagnab Posting!!! [JW]

In answer to Patrick LeRay's comments about the Thunder Tiger .074! It is quiet! When you break-in an engine on Sunday morning in a shop with open windows and doors you gotta believe it is quiet! But, it isn't as quiet as an electric!

What happened to Ben Buckle kits in the USA? I can't seem to find anyone carrying them. DARE hobby claimed (in 1998) to be the "exclusive importer", but their web page no longer lists BB kits. I'm seeking a 'SOUTHERNER 60' or a 'SOUTHERNER MITE'. Any help, leads or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I called Sig a couple of days ago to see about availability and price on the R/C Rascal. There is good news and bad news.

The good news is that the lady I talked to said the kit would be available about mid-September. The bad news is (you guessed it) the list price is to be $79.95! In my opinion this price is way out of line for a sport 1/2A kit. It should sell for about half that price, and probably will later on when the price drops (as most Sig kits do after release) and the mailorder houses start selling them at discount and special pricing.

Some will buy the kit now, but many will wait for the best deal. And some, like me, will take my two existing plans (FF and R/C), go to the printer for blow-ups (180% enlargement), and create my own version of the 1/2A R/C Rascal. The hardest part will be in plotting all the ribs for the elliptical wing, but the balsa cost should only run about $15.00.

I am hoping that I misunderstood the lady at Sig or that she gave me the wrong quote, as I would like to simply go buy the kit (at a sane price), build it, and go fly!

For those who haven't yet checked this beauty out, go to < http://www.sigmfg.com >, or go buy this month's issue (October) of Flying Models.

...As an item of possible interest, the major reason for the high prices of today's model airplane kits is that they are in effect "custom made". In the Good Old Days, model kits were mass- produced. 5000 kits at a time was standard for most 1/2A and rubber-powered model airplane kits; at Veco in the 1950's our minimum kit run was 1000, for "high-priced" models such as the $6.95 "Chief" and $5.75 "Squaw"...

Most of today's R/C model kits are packed in dozen lots; a really popular design might be kitted 72 at a time... Very little "mass production efficiency" is involved in those quantities! [JW]

Jon McVay < > leads off some responses to Gary Gullikson's request for electric-power information:

I'd be careful in my choice of an Electric motor for the Flyline stuff. That mostly depends on wing area and what you want the aircraft to do.

As an update for you guys and also to give Gary Gullikson some advice, I have been having a lot of fun flying small electrics for the past year, and after much experimenting things are sorting out nicely. My main ride has been a Herr 36-inch Cub, which I have been very happy with after I added some wing washout.

The best propulsion system I have found so far (will try the MTM Hummingbird next) is the Titanic 280 3:1 Gearbox setup. The 280 motor is very robust compared to smaller motors such as the VL-HY50D, and the 3:1 gear ratio allows use of shorter props than many other systems.

The motor/gearbox/prop combination is about $30 from ModelAir- Tech (who advertises in the magazines) and proprietor Tom Hunt is a terrific guy to deal with. A 7 x 6 Gunther prop comes with the Titanic 280, and it will fly my model -- but has a bit too much pitch; while the APC 8 x 3.8 slow-fly is another good prop but has too little pitch for my situation, and 8 inches is too long for ground clearance.

What is needed is a 7-inch or so by 4.5 pitch -- and nobody makes a really good one, so you have to use a rubber-power type prop that is a little difficult to mount, such as the VL P-1 (available from John Worth, another nice guy -- see his ads in MicroFlight Magazine) or similar.

My speed controller is an FMA Mini-5. At about $20 it is half the price of any other and is the only one I know without the obnoxious motor cutoff, which is not needed with my particular configuration. (The Cub loses its ability to maintain altitude way before the voltage drops so low as to fail the radio.) It's always set way too high by the manufacturers anyway.

Several battery combinations work with my Cub. The best is a 3-pack of Tadiran Lithium metal rechargeables, which are available from David Lewis (a terrific guy) at < Homefly.com >, about $12 per cell plus $8 for his single-cell slow charge kit, or $44 total.

Usually I go out early on Saturday morning, fly 25 minutes with this single pack, and then go home tired! During the week I charge each cell separately and then I am ready again the next weekend.

If I want a second flight the wind is usually up a little by that time, so I use my heavier battery setup -- which is a 7-cell pack of Sanyo 350 mAh nicads -- for about 15 minutes flight time.

Nickel metal-hydrides, which are becoming increasingly available, can be used as well, since the Titanic 280 current draw is only around 2 Amperes.

Regarding receivers: if Gullikson uses one as heavy as the Hitec 555, he should remove its case and make it as light as possible; and servos should be the .33-ounce or less type. Otherwise he will exceed a ready-to-fly weight of 9 ounces, which is about as much as my plane is happy with.

My Cub flies very realistically, will loop after a dive, touches- and-goes to beat the band, will climb to 400 feet or higher, and will tolerate a 5 mph wind. Lots of fun!

This is a response to Gary Gullikson, who seems to have gotten a little confused with the electric nomenclature. Part of the problem is that "Flyline kits" encompassed a nice range of airplanes, and I'll bet all the motor combinations suggested for his projects would do well in at least one of their airplanes.

Anyhow, some quick, off-the-top-of-my-pointy-head calculations: Speed 400 airplanes are in the 14-16 ounce plus range, which is double the 5-7 ounces desired. Geared Speed 280 airplanes are in the 10-ounce range. In the 6-8 ounce range, you can get away with a direct-drive speed 280, which will swing a 5-inch prop.

If the nose of the airplane is too large for this combination, then you'd better build a little lighter and go to an HY-50B motor, which will swing a 7-inch prop, with basically the power of a heavy rubber motor. On the Speed 280 and smaller combinations, a 3-cell lithium pack is the way to go, unless you like flying for a couple of minutes and then charging.

You must be careful not to put to big a prop on the Speed 280 with the lithium cells, or you'll run too many amps and kill the batteries -- easy to do. It's very hard to get a motor in between the HY-50B and a Speed 280 -- the options tend to be coreless and expensive. It's possible some of MTM motors will work -- I've been itching to try some of his stuff smaller than his S-300's.

I will point out that the radio gear that Gary plans on using is better-suited to the somewhat larger airplanes, i.e. 10-12 ounces. The Hitec 555 is not the lightest receiver out there. I've been flying my Speed 280 and smaller airplanes with a total airborne radio weight of 3/4 ounce, which includes speed control, two servos and receiver. Remember that 0.5 ounce in a 5-ounce airplane is 10% of the weight.

Recently I've been playing with my Garami Skylark, which has been kitted by Al Lidberg. I'm using the HY-50B, a Tern 6"prop, 3-cell lithium pack, HS-50 servos, and a Sky Hooks and Rigging receiver. Flying weight is in between 5.5 and 6 ounces. I've moved the center of gravity aft of what's shown on the plans by an easy 0.5 inch.

I think lighter airplanes (especially with lifting tails) fly better with a more rearward CG. I've finally got the airplane flying so that I'm happy with it. I don't think the HY-50B motor really can do very much with a two-cell lithium pack, just not enough volts.

The airplane flew, but it was very hard to get it to climb. With the 3-cell pack, climbs to well over 100 feet in under 30 seconds -- a rate of climb that's well suited for this airplane.

The airplane flies well, but it's not quite in the league of the Clipper Mk II with a Speed 280. The Clipper is somewhat larger, though.

Dick Miller's EMPS site has lots of useful information. Basically, the HY-50B will spin a 6-inch prop at the same rpms as the HY-50D with a two-cell lithium pack. This has been borne out by my flying experience -- the two motors pull about the same in the air.

The disadvantage is that the HY-50B weighs over 0.5 ounces more. Has anyone found a replacement for the HY-50D? Anybody know anything about the new HY-50F?

I love my Norvel 1/2A engine!! I'm getting my 8-year-old son started on control-line flying, and bought a Norvel control line "Start'up" combination which included the engine, tank and spring starter -- for less than $30.00!

I then bought a Goldberg Little Wizard trainer. What a great combination! I taught him to fly it in only three "dual" flights. The engine starts right up and runs great all the way to the last drop of fuel.

First: These little motors are much more powerful than the "Other" common 1/2A engines. If you buy a kit designed for the "other" engines you will have a greatly overpowered model with a Norvel "Start'up". I suggest turning the prop around backwards to slow the plane down!

Second: The Norvel engines are a little heavier than the "other" engines and when mounted on the Norvel fuel tank mount, will create CG problems for the average 1/2A model, particularly 1/2A control- line kits (most were made for the "other" engines). It is usually much easier to correct an out-of-balance problem before the model is built, so plan ahead!

On our second 1/2A kit I'm using a standard 1/2A R/C type mount, an external tank, and I also increased the tail length by 1 1/2 inches.

Third: The Norvel engines start so easily and run so well, you will have to plan ahead. What will you do with all of the time you used to spend trying to start the "other" engines? I remember spending what seemed like hours flipping and flipping! Since you will spend less time starting I'll bet you will spend more time flying.

Thanks for all the responses about more power for the FMA Razor, and also thanks to Will DeJarnette on the Lite Stick battery from Wal Mart. I purchased a 9-volt battery connector at Radio Shack, soldered on a connector for the speed control, and left the battery as it came from Wal Mart.

My speed control handles the 9V NiMH battery OK. I charge it with a 50 mA Futaba radio charger. Am going to buy one more battery and the factory Ray-o-Vac charger. $ 6.50 each for batteries and $7 for the charger. 9 volts is great; I can now take off from my driveway and do touch and goes in the street...

Am having a blast with the electric stuff... I work in a glass plant (hot) and would normally be on the couch every evening, but have been out flying every day (2 weeks and counting); either the Lite Stick or the FMA Razor, at a neighborhood church ballfield, a local park located about a half mile away, or in the street in front of my house... I go out at 7 PM to miss out on the record- setting highs we are having around Shreveport, Louisiana ( 105 + degrees F).... Johnny Vaught

RJL industries has bought the Fuji line of engine designs and has all of the old motors and spares in stock. SMALLsters need to take a look at some of their new and vintage reproduction motors, as there are a lot that suit our needs. Good prices too! < http://www.mecoa.com >

Sadly, the Micron starter has not been in the Sullivan Products catalog for a few years, and a check of their web site shows only the bigger starters are still available. I use mine for .09 to .25 engines, and I will be sad if it fails one day.

Dave Fritzke expresses troubles in finding a starter for small engines. My advice is: do one yourself! It will cost two hours of handiwork and about five bucks:

1. Buy a standard Mabuchi RS-540S for 3-6V. This will cost about 5 bucks here in Sweden. Probably they are cheaper in the U.S. This motor is used in many R/C-toy cars. Put a stopscrew-bushing on the shaft.

2. Look around your house for a door-stopper, you know, a conical device made of rubber, which saves other furniture from some brute slamming the door open. Loosen it ruthlessly from the floor with a screwdriver.

3. Sneak back to your hobby cave. Grasp a knife and shave the top of the cone to a clutch shape that fits the propellor hub.

4. Fasten the bottom of the hub to the bushing with silicone glue. This is perhaps better to do before you have put the bushing on the motor shaft. Take care to center the bushing before the glue is hardening! Let it harden well overnight.

5. Buy a pushbutton-connector and silicone it as well to the motorcase. Now buy about a yard of flexible laboratory cable; one red, the other black, and connect the cables from the connector to a 7-cell 1200 mAH nicad pack. You have, of course, to add male contacts from the motor and female contacts on the battery pack.

6. As a handle for the motor I use the inner tube from an empty toilet-paper roll, which fits exactly on the housing of the motor. Bingo! There you have a starter for the most stubborn .049's. A word of warning: I have heard that the small diesels are prone to bend their connecting rods if forced with starters, so take care!

It actually took less time to fabricate the motor then describing how to do it for you.

...From what I've seen at the flying meets I've attended this year, there's no shortage of 1/2A-size engine starters! Miller R/C has had a good one on the market for years. It's available by mail order from Campbell's Custom Kits, P. O. Box 3104, Muncie, Indiana 47307 -- (765) 289-7753; e-mail < >.

I saw another type being sold at an "on-field booth" at this year's Maumelle SMALL event -- and now a new one's been announced by the Lite Machines people. Their new "Micro Starter" has a list price of $35, and should be available from "the usual suppliers" either right now, or soon... [JW]

SMALLnet Posting post344