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SHOWDOWN
The ELO Mailing List Digest
Issue #005
October 11, 1997


     In this issue:

     Jules & Maurice make peace
     Last words on "Honest Men"
     How does Maurice have so much time to post?
     How many is "too many" e-mails?
     Kelly Groucutt's "Part II" quote
     Connections to Meatloaf/more on Part II name
     Looking for Jeff Lynne radio interview


============================================================
ALL PUBLIC RESPONSES TO ARTICLES ON THIS LIST SHOULD BE
SENT TO THE TALK LIST ADDRESS: elo-list@eskimo.com
============================================================


Subject: Re: Part II - first album is terrible
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:00:33 +0100
From: Jules McNab 

Dear all,

This will be my last post on this subject to the list - Maurice and I
can battle it out privately without filling up all your post boxes - I
decided that when I had 48 mails to download today!  I have also put all
my reactions in one mail, so that those people who aren't interested
don't have to wade through 14 mails on the same subject.

>but it doesn't mean Eric has to write rotten lyrics to compensate 
>for the fact.

You mean.. in your opinion, Maurice.  Many people disagree with you,
including me - in my humble opinion you're taking pieces of information
and suiting it to your opinion, without knowing the true facts behind
the stories.  You have a remarkable way of winding me up.

>Part II I think wouyld have been better off calling themselves
>something else - I would have still bought all their output

If you had heard them, you may have.  But what would have caused you to
hear it in the first place?  Without that link it would be incredibly
difficult to get across the message that this band is a large chunk of
ELO.

>Jeff was under constant pressure from day 1 - could he be as good 
>without Roy

But Roy, despite the fact that he named the group, did not insist on
them calling themselves something different once he left.  There's the
rub.

>that is the problem is you are going to use a well established name 
>of quality the product has to be up to it and it wasn't

I'm not disputing that Part II wasn't a good album.  It wasn't.  It had
shining moments, mainly the Eric songs, but some of it was atrocious.
The change in line up made a big difference.

>- the annoying thing is that now the product is but no-one
>seems to want to promote them - once bitten and all that.

It's nothing to do with the first album, I assure you.

>Sorry reading my post gave the wrong impression - I was meaning to
>praise the FTM crew for all the great work they have done - my admiration
>for you guys is limitless.

I left FTM in Jan 1996, to work more directly with the band, and yes,
FTMers do work very hard voluntarily.

>no offence meant - and i am glad to have sparked off discussion

I love discussions, and am interested in sparking off people with
differing opinions than my own, but what I can't let go is when people
are offensive to people that are not able to defend themselves.  In that
instance, it's down to the people that know them to put up an arguement
for them.

>Jules - sorry if I have got on your nerves a bit - i would be delighted 
>to hear more about Eric - my spleen is not especially directed at him

I'm glad to hear it.  He's a very talented, kind, very warmhearted guy -
not many people who are as busy as he is would take the time to write as
much for the web site as he has done recently.

Write me personally if you wish to continue this discussion.


                                **********


Subject: Re: Smoke On The Whopper (Honest Men)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:48:16 +0000
From: Maurice Dockrell

Mike Hudson wrote:

> I too think the lyrics to Honest Man are abysmal (even juvenile as
> you say) yet the melody isn't half bad.

thanks - I think one of the problems here is that those who know the band
personally know them as nice guys (which I am sure they are ) which makes
it very difficult to tell them a song or even worse an entire album is
rubbish. Personally I don't see what all the fuss is - the band got rid of
half the original part II line up (Haycock and Lockwood) and brought in
Phil Bates, Mik and Kelly and hey presto the band can suddenly write. In
interviews it has been admitted they have gone back to Jeff's guitar style
for the old stuff and the new stuff is very good.


                                **********


Subject: A note to Maurice
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:49:31 -0400
From: SERENA TORZ 

Maurice,

I write this, I think, on behalf of all of us out here in cyberspace who
are on a budget, have a job, and most importantly, have a phone bill.

This is not a dig at you, but I think we are all wondering (or perhaps it's
just me!) just where you find the time to do all your posts to this list?
All those responses, new debates, etc. I got home from work today to be
greeted by an all time record full mailbox containing 20 messages - at
least half were postings by your good self on the above list. How do you do
it? I do my postings in the morning and in the evening, and that's it. The
rest of the time I'm working. Two posts in a day is usually the max for me
to the mailing list, plus some (but not 20!) private E-mails.

I couldn't send this to you personally as I cleared out my mailbox and
don't have any E-mails with your address on any more. I do apologise if I
have embarrassed you, it wasn't intentional - please take it in the good
humour it was intended.

I admire your good natured responses as the debate got really heated about
the first album (I actually LIKE some of it - not all, but SOME), and also
your kind words about me and the rest of the FTM crowd last night.

Ah well, bye for now - keep posting (but don't bankrupt yourself!)


                                **********


Subject: Re: A note to Maurice - and reply to Serena
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:51:14 +0000
From: Maurice Dockrell

> This is not a dig at you, but I think we are all wondering (or perhaps
> it's just me!) just where you find the time to do all your posts to
> this list?

thanks - Serena - the praise for the the whole FTM team and associated
was heartfelt - as for the good humour well I may like ELO and have done
so since aged 12 in 1980 - but it is not the centre of my life - I am
trying to figure out if you embarassed me - if you did I was not aware of
it -

as for the mystery whether I have a life or not - the secret is that i
have had a bout of flu since Tuesday and have been bored out my mind the
last few days - I usually travel a lot in my work and being sedentary has
being driving me quietly nuts- as for the cost of it all - I type
quickly(if badly) and the phone charges after 1800 hrs here are very low -

being sick is the pits - you can't work - TV is dull dull dull - and
starting a row, if unintentionally cheered me up no end - I can be quite
caustic and got worried if I had insulted anyone - if so it was
unintentional - well in most cases - what I find funny is that everyone
took the whole thing so seriously - i mean I think the first part II album
is just so painful that I can't listen to it but still admire Part II as a
band - its similar to forgiving Jeff for writing Letter to Spain or
Another Heart Breaks (the dullest ELO song ever written - I hope that
doesn't start another row)  - but I do not take these discussions
seriously in the sense of being offended - we all like the same music
essentially and there are few enough of us who are prepared in public to
stand up and say that their favourite band is ELO in any guise. I regard
these postings essentially as pub talk - a bit of fun - a few insults
traded who cares - amongst friends that is nothing - perhaps one or two
people took it all a bit seriously and maybe personally - that was my main
worry as I can be quite sharp when writing - but it is all done with a
smile - well a crafty smirk at least

One final note on th FTM team - without you guys I would not have had
access to much of the music I love, nor would I know much about what is
going on now etc - the work you do for ELO fans is fantastic - the fanzine
is by and large superb - you have even printed one or two letters of mine
- one of which said much the same as my posting - maybe more politely

through FTM, in my pre net days, I have come into contact with ELO fans
and through FTM i became aware of this service on the net etc - so my
personal debt to FTM is huge - it is unfair to single people out for
praise but Rob does seem to do an incredible amount - I have received much
useful information from Rob and Gill etc in the past and am genuinely
grateful - so don't worry about me Serena - and thanks for taking the time
to write.


                                **********


Subject: Re: A note to Maurice - and reply to Serena
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:19:03 +0000
From: Scott Pierson

To Serena:

There are also some of us that are Salary workers and end up working
one day a week for 12 hours.  My job is either busy or dead.  When it
is dead, I have more chances to check my e-mail.  And my e-mail and
home page are all free for me...  (I have an ELO Tribute Page I will
let you guys peek at after I do a bit of polishing).  It's not like
some of the high tech ones I have seen, but it was a labor of love
that I will be happy to finish!

To Maurice:

Sorry about the flu, homey.  Do you know we have actually found
common ground?  Another Heart Breaks has got to be one of ELO's most
boring songs... after Queen of the Hour, Nellie Takes Her Bow,
Manhattan Rumble, and Battle of Marston Moor (except for the opening
declaration).   I do actually like Letter From Spain, but it could be
because I have a friend who "looks good in the movies" and tv, and it
sorta reminds me of her, I guess.  (Some of the Americans may know
her, but I am not sure how much exposure she has received in GB).

This is me leaving!

"Pip Pip, Cheerio, and all that sort of rot!"  - Col Crittendon,
"Hogan's Heros"


                                **********


Subject: Re: Re: A note to Maurice - and reply to Serena
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:06:10 +0100
From: John Kilcline 

Serena wrote:

> I do my postings in the morning and in the evening, and that's it.
> The rest of the time I'm working. Two posts in a day is usually the
> max for me to the mailing list, plus some (but not 20!) private E-mails.

I am confused by ALL the e-mails too!!

It seems that all the chit-chat that we nomally use the newsgroup for,
has moved over to this excellent new mailing list!!

This now means the newsgroup is virtually devoid of news & my mailbox is
full of chitchat to be sorted, before I can get to the 20 or so "real"
e-mails I get most days

Perhaps someone will offer an explanation.


                                **********


Subject: Re: At least 4 different ELO's...maybe more!
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:08:09 +0100
From: John Kilcline 

>Personally, I think the name ELO Part II is deceiving...

Here's Kelly's view of this:-

Quote

Exactly. It was very difficult at the time because we couldn't change what
had happened and it was not in our interests, it certainly wasn't in my
interests, to con people into thinking that we were "Electric Light
Orchestra" because people are gonna get disappointed there's nothing wrong
with telling people that you used to be with "Electric Light Orchestra" and
that your gonna play some of the numbers that your well known for as well
as your new ones, but you can't get a new band off the ground if you
pretend to be an old one. So consequently that's why "ELO Part II" is
called Part Two for legal reasons and also to let people know that we're a
brand new band.

ENDQUOTE

taken from a radio interview in UK August 1996
see http://www.elopart2.demon.co.uk/radio.html for the full interview


                                **********


Subject: Connections To Meatloaf!?
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 05:14:29 +0000
From: Joe Ramsey

> Here's Kelly's view of this:-

> So consequently that's why "ELO Part II" is called Part Two
> for legal reasons and also to let people know that we're a brand
> new band.

The thing that strikes me here is that the current ELO PART II (all in caps
- legal, right?) have done a bit of a dance with the devil. It's tough to
have it both ways. It sounds, by Kelly's description, that they want to be
perceived as a new band, but saddled with the ELO monicker there's no way
that that could ever be.

For better or worse, Jeff Lynne will ALWAYS be perceived as the main man in
ELO. Jeff comes out looking a bit bad for being so hard ass with the guys.
But, in his defence, maybe he feels that the current band will fray his
band's reputation, his legacy if you will, that I'm sure that he thought
that he was leaving when he left the group. After more than 15 years at the
helm, this isn't surprising or unusual. But when you are dealing with
others in a band situation, it doesn't always go according to Hoyle. Ask
Roger Waters.

I think that Bevan has every right to use the name. This, of course, pays
the bills as promoters and record company guys would LOVE to book the
ultra-famous ELO. But when this name is used, it brings the "new" music
under an intense scrutiny based on the illustrious past of the former ELO -
unfair to judge a new band using this criteria.

After reading Maurice's posts, and gathering as much info about the
formation of the PART II as I could, I thought how difficult it must have
been for the group to conceive and record the first album. Not only did
they have to contend with re-grouping, but also legal trouble from Mr.
Lynne. If a lot of the ELO folks think it inferior, it's no wonder given
the hassle it must have been to get it together.

I can't help but wonder how the group would have been perceived if it
hadn't taken the "easy" (ha!) route of calling itself ELO PART II.
Forgetting ELO fanatics for a second, I think that the
musical-community-at-large would have given the band a bit more rope...
maybe.

I am one of those early fans, as described by someone in a previous post -
running to my Move Chat Line to ask the same questions. But to tell you the
truth, I find Mr. Bevan's new creation a lot more interesting than the post
"Out Of The Blue" version of the old band. And I say that without hearing A
NOTE of the new music (you talk about blind optimism).

I plan to pick up the ELO II releases and will have more to say then. And,
as Jules said, if I hate it, I'll say so (paraphrased).

Joe

PS. I love the passion...

PSS. I find any connection to "Meatloaf" a bit frightening.


                                **********


Subject: Re: Connections To Meatloaf!?
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:30:48 +0000
From: Maurice Dockrell

i agree with a lot of what you say - i think Jeff is right to be difficult
about the ELO name as in reality his songs were ELO - he had
extraordinarily talented group of people to work with but that was not due
to luck - they auditioned the guys and chose the best- don't forget they
were all making a living off his back - Ok he made millions but he was the
employer. Bev was the ideal No.2 - he loved publicity and promoted the
band in a way jeff couldn't have - so they were a good team but to be
honest any band without Lynne cannot be ELO as his sons were and are ELO -
Part II I think wouyld have been better off calling themselves something
else - I would have still bought all their output - but if you do put the
music back to back even the late and oft reviled Lynne penned ELO is still
a lot better and sold better than part II

> If a lot of the ELO folks think it inferior, it's no wonder given
> the hassle it must have been to get it together.

I'm sure it was hell putting it together - the pressure to achieve must
have been huge - but that is no excuse - Jeff was under constant pressure
from day 1 - could he be as good without Roy - then could he be as could
has the last album - then the whining when he dropped strings etc

the trouble here of course is that Part II did promote themselves as ELO
and not Part II initially - there were silly statements like ELO are back
- and then they suffered a backlash when it was realised ELO wan't back
and that Jeff hated the idea - if the first album had of been Moment of
Truth they would have got away with it but it wasn't and it was terrible
and that was the chance blown which is a pity - after all the discussions
I listened to the Part II album again - its horrible in my humble opinion
and Moment of Truth is so very good. that is the problem is you are going
to use a well established name of quality the product has to be up to it
and it wasn't - the annoying thing is that now the product is but no-one
seems to want to promote them - once bitten and all that.

> I can't help but wonder how the group would have been perceived if
> it hadn't taken the "easy" (ha!) route of calling itself ELO PART II.
> Forgetting ELO fanatics for a second, I think that the
> musical-community-at-large would have given the band a bit more rope...
> maybe.

I agree if the band had called themselves something like Orkestra (Ok a
bit derivative of the old name but indicating a link but also a new band i
think they would have had a chance with Bevan's marketing skills) - the
band may have got a chance but not with their initial output - also Honest
Men sounded like a copy of Lynne not a development like what is found on
Moment of truth

anyway my fire is soley directed at the first ELO Part II album which blew
it really for them - which is so annoying cos they are so good now.


                                **********


Subject: Re: Connections To Meatloaf!?
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:19:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bruce Dumes 

Joe Ramsey wrote:

> PSS. I find any connection to "Meatloaf" a bit frightening.

I remember a Tom Snyder show from the 70's, back when Tom was the Leisure
Suit King, and he said to his guest, "Should I call you Meat or Mr. Loaf?"
in all seriousness....

By the way -- Happy Birthday, John Lennon...and Happy Birthday Sean Ono
Lennon (both born Oct 9).

Obligatory ELO note:  Does *anyone* have a copy of the radio interview
where John Lennon said his two favorite British songwriters were Roy Wood
and Jeff Lynne?



End of Showdown #005
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