[This digest is the copyright of the Move "Useless Information" Mailing List. Re-publication or re-distribution of "Useless Information" content, in any form whatsoever, is expressly prohibited without prior written consent.] USELESS INFORMATION The Move Mailing List Digest Issue #385 September 4, 2002 In this issue: * Song Of The Week (week of 9/2): "Something" * The Battle of Marston Moor * I can hear more grass grow...I think * Here's The Beef (about Shazam) * Rock Down Low backward vocals * ELOlogy ============================================================== To POST TO THE LIST: Send an e-mail to: move-list@eskimo.com Move List Info & Archives: http://www.eskimo.com/~noanswer/movelist.html Join the ELO List: http://www.eskimo.com/~noanswer/showdown.html Other official websites: The Move: http://www.themoveonline.com Roy Wood: http://www.roywood.co.uk Face The Music (for all ELO & related news): http://www.ftmusic.com TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Send an e-mail to move-digest-request@eskimo.com with the word "unsubscribe" (no quotes) in the subject line ============================================================== Subject: Song Of The Week: "Something" Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 00:27:11 -0700 From: Lynn Hoskins Song Of The Week: September 2, 2002 "Something" B-side of The Move's "Blackberry Way" Possible discussion topics: Vocals Lyrics Instrumentation Songwriting Arrangement/Production Live performance Strong/weak points English vs Italian? *********************** "Something" (D. Morgan) Is there something that you've wanted More than anything Something you took for granted Never stopped to think Suddenly it's there in your eyes Suddenly you can recognize That something That certain something Do I want you Oh, do I want you More than anything Did I love you Oh did I love you Never stopped to think All my life I've wanted one thing more All my life I've been searching for That something That certain something Oh, no no no It's not like that at all Oh, no no no Not as I recall Is there something that you've wanted More than anything Something you took for granted Did you ever stop to think All my life I've wanted one thing more All my life I've been searching for That something That certain something ********** Subject: Re: Song Of The Week: "Something" Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 02:34:01 -0700 From: kakman1 "Something" was one one of two songs especially penned for the Move by Dave Morgan; the song stands out in the Move catalogue of recordings as a showcase for Carl Wayne's prowess as a unique and powerful interpretative vocalist. Lyrically it asks more unanswered questions than "The Star Spangled Banner", and could have come off as so much goop, but Carl's vocal mastery and interpretive skills give the song great power and emotion. Lots of orchestration on the track, supposedly that is Bev on drums and Roy on flute, I'm sure Trevor was nowhere to be found when this track was recorded, definitely not up to his tastes. Recorded and released during their cabaret period and twinned with "Blackberry Way", the number one success of the single in Britain signalled one of the oddest points in the band's career, when they vacillated from being hard heavy rockers to safe fluffy bubblegum pop/cabaret fare. I thought that the flute in this song goes a bit over the top and gets in the way of the song at times, almost like Roy is trying to distract the listener away from Carl's singing. Lots of sawing cellos at the end there, but I think those are session musicians this time and not Roy, as he hadn't purchased that cheap twenty quid Chinese cello, yet ;o). I forget, did Denny Cordell produce this one? I remember Jimmy Miller definitely produced Blackberry Way. Kevin Kunreuther Dallas TX ********** Subject: Re: Song Of The Week: "Something" Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 03:33:55 -0700 From: "Tim Emerich" i've always wondered why there is an Italian version of this. this song was perfect for Carl. it's always bothered me how this, Lightning Never Strikes Twice and This Time Tomorrow seem to get thrown on those comps like Tofu. i dont know much about this song. did it do well? what era did it come out? sometime during Blackberry Way? ********** Subject: The Battle of Marston Moor Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 04:07:00 -0700 From: "Bill Krouwel" Chris Roberts sent "all you need to know about the 'real events of July 2, 1644. Happy history lesson...." .........which makes me wonder; are there any other English Civil War songs emanating from the midlands rock fraternity? I can think of "Red and Gold" from Fairport (albeit written by Ralph McTell), overtly inspired by the battle of Cropredy Bridge, now very close to the festival site. Any others, anyone? trainspotteringly, Bill Krouwel ********** Subject: I can hear more grass grow...I think Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:31:16 -0700 From: Lynn Hoskins I don't typically post anorak-y things to the list. I leave that up to Greg Weatherby. (Ha! Just kidding... ;) But this has been bugging me so I thought I'd check with the experts. I have several versions of "I Can Hear The Grass Grow" on various comp CD's, including "Movements." A couple months ago I got the wonderful "Hits & Rarities: Singles A's & B's" and was quite surprised to hear an extended ending on "I Can Hear The Grass Grow." I literally did a double-take. I'd never heard it before! So my question is... was this "extended ending" on the original vinyl single? If so, why would producers of comps fade out the song early? Am I hearing things? I see rainbows in the evening, in case anyone was wondering. ********** Subject: Re: I can hear more grass grow...I think Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:40:42 -0700 From: John DeSilva Lynn Hoskins wrote: > The Grass Grow." I literally did a double-take. I'd never heard it > before! > > So my question is... was this "extended ending" on the original vinyl > single? If so, why would producers of comps fade out the song early? Lynn: First of all, glad to hear you did a double take rather than the more hilarious spit-take. Funny yes, but very messy! This very subject was discussed by Dr. Bob and me the last time ICHTGG was SOTW. I've never heard the single, but I can tell you that the original "extended" fade was present on the vinyl release of "The Best Of The Move" on A&M (1973 I think). I've never heard it again until "Hits and Rarities", although Dr. Bob had it on several vinyl comps that he has (he has the actual running times in his actual notes!!! Who's the anorak indeed? ;-D ). My other MIA piece regarding vinyl vs. CD: On my vinyl copy of 'Shazam' (A&M), at the beginning of "Don't Make My Baby Blue" it starts, stops, Roy says "it's a bit ragged", then it goes into the song. In EVERY other version I've ever heard the false start piece is missing. Dr. Bob?!?!? Greg?!?!?! Why?!?!?! ;-) JD San Jose, CA ********** Subject: Re: I can hear more grass grow...I think Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 15:41:05 -0700 From: "Robert Sutliff" Lynn, Specifically, I don't have a clue about this one, but there's a whole sub-genre when it comes to Beatle fade-outs. There are a whole lot of different endings on fab 4 tunes that were released around the world. One wonders if the particular tune went through several different mixes for different territories. I wouldn't be surprised if the Move did the same thing. ********** Subject: Re: I can hear more grass grow...I think Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 17:02:41 -0700 From: Lynn Hoskins John DeSilva wrote: >This very subject was discussed by Dr. Bob and me the last time ICHTGG was >SOTW. I've never heard the single, but I can tell you that the original >"extended" fade was present on the vinyl release of "The Best Of The Move" >on A&M (1973 I think). I've never heard it again until "Hits and >Rarities"... John, I went back and read your post from April. Hope you don't mind me quoting it: "My one frustration with this song comes from the premature fading of the track on most of the early CD compilations - Roy does this really cool chordal riff at the very end of the song that gets cut off on most of the CDs that I got early on. Thankfully the Repertoire reissue of the first Move album includes the entire song, fading at the correct time." Evidently, my brain skipped right over what you said back then since I hadn't actually heard it. I'd be interested in knowing which of the various vinyl singles includes the end "chordal riff" part. Maybe all of them? To my knowledge, it was released in 12 countries on the Deram label. Anorak check: Does anyone on this list have all 12? :) ********** Subject: Re: I can hear more grass grow...I think Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 01:52:13 -0700 From: kakman1 You know I've been wondering about that myself now for awhile. The Us Deram and Uk Deram both have the slight extended break with the ringing bits on the guitar at end as it fades out. The US A&M Best of Move on vinyl and CD preserve this but every other compilation until Hits & Rarities fades out earlier on the vocal refrain. For a long time I accepted this was just done out of expedience, trying to jam as many tunes on one platter or disc as possible. Why was this not restored when CD technology happened? My guess is that they lost the original version and it was easier to use the more available shorter edit. Why knock yourself out to get the more complete version when no one but nitpickers care? Kevin Kunreuther Dallas TX ********** Subject: Re: I can hear more grass grow...I think Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 01:52:52 -0700 From: "Andy" A few tracks fade out early on the Move CD's I hope this will be put right next year when the Move's work is remastered. The album 'Shazam' needs alot of work. 'Hello Suzie' and 'Beautiful Daughter' appear to be single edits. Also the false start and the count in to restart the track 'Dont Make My Baby Blue' are missing. Cube Records wrecked! this in 1978. I hope the master to the Regal Zonophone version of 'Shazam' still exists so a proper copy can be mastered to CD. Please destroy the Cube tapes they are rubbish. Going to 'I Can Hear The Grass Grow' there is a even longer version which fades out on some drum rolls on the LP The Move-Greatest Hits Vol. 1 on Pickwick Records SHM952. If you are lucky you might find a copy at car boot sale. It is the best version that I know to. -All the best Andy PS Thank Carl for taking time to sign the CD you sent to me. I'm well pleased. TA. ********** Subject: Here's The Beef (about Shazam) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 00:13:43 -0700 From: kakman1 My biggest beef about every version of "Shazam" that has ever been released on compact disc (and that ain't many, thank goodness!) is that the beginning of Don't Make My Baby, Blue has been clipped! Mr DeSilva mentioned this earlier in the "ICHTGG a little longer" thread. WHY? That's like editing out the ochestra tuning up at the beginning of Sgt. Pepper's LHCB, or removing the George Harrison's counting off at the beginning of Taxman or the majestic lead-in to the Beach Boys California Girls. While I'm on a rant here, I'd like to point out, to my ears, both the German Repertoire reprint and The Movements box, the Shazam recordings sound a little dead, unexciting, unlike the vinyl versions. I have no idea why this is, except maybe it was an inferior remastering job or I need to get my ears checked. Maybe both reasons! (Where's that Q-tip swab?) Whatever the reason, I eagerly await a proper remaster job for Shazam in the future (suggestion: Disc One, the original album with "Something Else" tapes, Disc Two, a video file of the entire Colour Me Pop performance, as well the usual clippings, photos, etcetera), as well as for Move and Looking On. So, it's a few years down the road 'til this happens, good things happen for those who can wait. Kevin Kunreuther Dallas TX ********** Subject: Re: Here's The Beef (about Shazam) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 01:51:56 -0700 From: Rob Caiger > WHY? That's like editing out the ochestra tuning up at the Because record companies don't know any different. A safety tape was prepared from a copy production master (made in the 1980's) by freelance engineers and for some reason, they decided they had the right to "clean" up what they considered to be unnecessary talk back. DAT copies of this safetly tape are circulated to each record manaufacturer, including the recent Japanese "so-called" remasters. The original master tape, from which they should have remastered, is nowhere to be found. > While I'm on a rant here, I'd like to point out, to my ears, both the > German Repertoire reprint and The Movements box, the Shazam recordings > sound a little dead, unexciting, unlike the vinyl versions. Because no one can find the master or the multitrack to Shazam. I can't (so far). While I'm at it, I found the master tape for The Move's first album. When I opened the box, the tape spiralled out - in three bits. The edit / overdub points all fell out as well - the glue having rotted. According to the notes on the box, the tape had snapped back in the 80's and had been left all this time to rot. This is the original master tape - there isn't another one, not even a first generation safety copy. The various CD's (including the one on Movements) have been produced from a 1980's copy of a copy. That's how much respect The Move's catalogue gets. Rob ********** Subject: Re: Here's The Beef (about Shazam) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 02:47:08 -0700 From: Keith Fletcher Rob, I weep when I hear stories like this how can a record company treat their assets such as master tapes with so little respect? I hope you can find a way to 'fix' this precious asset and eventually get out a decent fully reasserted Move album. Good luck and keep up the good work with finding Shazam masters or very good generation copies. Keep it up at least someone cares. ********** Subject: Re: Here's The Beef (about Shazam) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 02:47:25 -0700 From: kakman1 From Rob Caiger: >While I'm at it, I found the master tape for The Move's first album. >When I opened the box, the tape spiralled out - in three bits. AAAAHHHHHH! Sporting injury my left foot! You hurt your back falling over backwards trying to save the tape as it was spooling out and decomposing before your eyes! ;o) Kevin Kunreuther Dallas TX ********** Subject: Re: Here's The Beef (about Shazam) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:25:36 -0700 From: "Rob Caiger" Responding to a private e-mail: > Call me stupid or silly for suggesting this as this avenue may have been > explored already, but might the Shazam tapes be in Los Angeles, since > A&M were still pressing copies (inexplicably) in the early 1980's. No, the masters weren't sent out - they were copies. Also anything that wasn't nailed down in the A&M building disappeared when the company got merged into the Universal group. Even before that, no one there knew who The Move were, let alone where their tapes were. Don Arden on visiting the A&M LA office: "I've come about The Move" Receptionist: "No, we're not going anywhere." > Also, (and this may sound really silly)if the old dies for punching out > the LPs are still in existence, could they be used somehow to > reconstruct a master? No, long, long gone... They'll just have to re-record it... Rob ********** Subject: Re: Here's The Beef (about Shazam) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 14:35:07 -0700 From: John DeSilva Rob wrote: > Don Arden on visiting the A&M LA office: "I've come about The Move" > Receptionist: "No, we're not going anywhere." This receptionist really got around - she later got a job at UA Records, where she inadvertently named the first ELO album "No Answer" in the states, due to her lack of persistence in reaching somebody at EMI ... JD San Jose, CA ********** Subject: Rock Down Low backward vocals Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 03:58:43 -0700 From: "Steve Graham" Righto A long time ago I asked the question 'what is the instrument/voice at the beginning of Rock Down Low?' Someone, can't remember who, said that it was Roy's vocals backwards, but never said from where? Anyone know anything about this? ********** Subject: Re: Rock Down Low backward vocals Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 05:53:21 -0700 From: Lynn Hoskins Steve Graham wrote: >Someone, can't remember who, said that it was Roy's vocals backwards, but >never said from where? I remember this post! Okay, Bob, it's time to de-lurk and clue the rest of us in. ;) Re-post from three years ago... Subject: Re: Song Of The Week: "Rock Down Low" Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:24 +0100 (BST) From: rsamuel@cix.co.uk (Bob Samuel) Steven wrote: > By the way, is that bit at the start of Rock Down Low Roy's voice? Try playing the intro backwards - you'll probably find you recognise what you hear! Just another of Roy's little tricks... [The answer will appear in the next edition of Useless Information! - Lynn] ********** Subject: ELOlogy Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 16:56:50 -0700 From: Patrik Guttenbacher In einer eMail vom 30.08.2002 00:26:17 Westeuropäische Sommerzeit schreibt Lynn: >But do we know for sure that Roy, known for playing several instruments >on stage almost simultaneously, wasn't also playing cello? Yes Roy is also playing cello on the first concerts, But playing the baritone sax on Great Balls Of Fire, we are absolutely sure!!! (almost 99,9999999999% of it) BECAUSE it's the only song on those early concerts on which a baritone saxophone could be heard. ELOlogy, is a science, I've done over 20 years now. Based on the two concert audience tapes of : "Live in Spring 1972" (which was around since 10 years in the fandom, and since First Light, we now aware that it was an audiotape of the "Set of six" TV Programme.) "Live at Guildford Civic Hall May 7th 1972" (a survived live taping from the fourth E.L.O. Live Concert ever) The running time of set list's in those times could not compared with nowadays set-lists. Concerts in those times lastet even 45 min. The set list of the first E.L:O. tour was: 10538 Overture (6:30) Queen Of The Hours (6:25) (with extended guitar and piano solo) Jeff's Boogie No. 1 (8:18) (diff. intro and diff. lyrics than the later developed in FTSTTW) First Movement (3:26) Dear Elaine (4:31) (or substituted for) Whisper In The Night (as on First Light) Great Balls Of Fire (5:46) (classic implement lines version) Jeff's Boogie No. 2 (6:43) (different lyrics than the later developed in In Old England Town) I've reported the full review in Face The Music Germany Magazine Issue 25 (in German language only; sadly), including a try of a "who plays what!" Plus looking at the pictures from the 11th E.L.O. concert ever in Italy (a few of it printed in Unexpected Messages), you could combine all the facts and files together. In fact only a look at the Set Of Six TV Programme, will clearing the last few missing links. At the moment Bye Patrik And here the hypothesis of the line-up, (updated) 10538 Overture Roy Wood: cello Jeff Lynne: vocals, electric guitar Bev Bevan: drums Richard Tandy: bass Bill Hunt: French horn Wilf Gibson: violin Andy Craig: cello Hugh Mc Dowell: cello Mike Edwards: cello (note: no vocals of Roy, no piano, no electric-piano/organ, Wilf intonated the hunting horn and the later moog effects all on his violin) Queen Of The Hours Roy Wood: cello Jeff Lynne: vocals, electric guitar Bev Bevan: drums Richard Tandy: bass Bill Hunt: piano Wilf Gibson: violin Andy Craig: cello Hugh Mc Dowell: cello Mike Edwards: cello (note: it seemed to be that Roy playing the 1st cello tune,) Jeff's Boogie No. 1 (From Jeff's Boogies 1 to 13) Roy Wood: bass ? Jeff Lynne: vocals, electric guitar Bev Bevan: drums Richard Tandy: piano Bill Hunt: French horn Wilf Gibson: violin Andy Craig: cello Hugh Mc Dowell: cello Mike Edwards: cello (note: of course you could not hear who's playing bass, by listening to the bass line, but there is a bit hearing piano and French horn together, so Roy must be on the bass. And he plays bass on one of the photographs) First Movement (Jumping Biz) Roy Wood: electric guitar (picking like an acoustic guitar) Jeff Lynne: ??? 2nd electric guitar, or leaving the stage Bev Bevan: drums Richard Tandy: bass Bill Hunt: organ/e-piano Wilf Gibson: ??? having a drink on the bar with Jeff Andy Craig: cello Hugh Mc Dowell: cello Mike Edwards: cello (note: Roy is playing the picking guitar. Picture show him sitting on a chair with an e-guitar. There's no violin be heard and no other guitar could be heard. That must mean nothing, but it could be that Jeff and Wilf play very silent or didn't play on that tracks) Dear Elaine Roy Wood: vocals, electric guitar Jeff Lynne: electric guitar Bev Bevan: drums Richard Tandy: bass Bill Hunt: piano Wilf Gibson: violin Andy Craig: cello Hugh Mc Dowell: cello Mike Edwards: cello (note: in the middle part 2 picking electric guitars could be heard, so maybe Roy played and Jeff picked a bit, or the other way round. Roy picked just a bit otherwise concentrating on his vocal performance. A string bass, or a low sounding cello can be heard together with the electric bass.) Whisper In The Night Roy Wood: vocals, electric guitar Jeff Lynne: ? (left the stage?) Bev Bevan: drums Richard Tandy: bass Bill Hunt: French horn Wilf Gibson: violin Andy Craig: cello Hugh Mc Dowell: cello Mike Edwards: cello (note: It seemed very sure that Jeff wasn't played on that. There are no backing vocals or Angel choir heard, there no 2nd guitar on that, which Jeff could do. This song is playing in the middle of the set, when not playing Dear Elaine. So it might be that Jeff, who singing all the other tracks, gave himself a short pause for refreshment.) Great Balls Of Fire Roy Wood: baritone saxophone Jeff Lynne: vocals, electric guitar Bev Bevan: drums Richard Tandy: bass Bill Hunt: Piano Wilf Gibson: violin Andy Craig: cello Hugh Mc Dowell: cello Mike Edwards: cello (note: the cellists playing in 3 different tunes. The baritone sax can clearly heard throughout the song) Jeff's Boogie No. 2 (From Jeff's Boogies 1 to 13) Roy Wood: cello Jeff Lynne: vocals, electric guitar Bev Bevan: drums Richard Tandy: bass Bill Hunt: Organ/electric piano Wilf Gibson: violin Andy Craig: cello Hugh Mc Dowell: cello Mike Edwards: cello (note: no piano on it) Maybe someday we will see "the truth" on a TV-screen! ********** Subject: Re: ELOlogy Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 16:57:29 -0700 From: Lynn Hoskins Patrik wrote: >In fact only a look at the Set Of Six TV Programme, will clearing the >last few missing links. Very interesting post, Patrik. And obviously the result of an awful lot of time and effort. Alright, my mission (which I have decided to accept) is to find someone who can view the "Set Of Six" television programme and tell me what, exactly, Roy is doing on "Great Balls Of Fire." This may take some doing, so be patient. But I'll find out. I think some of the musicians would remember bits of songs, but I'm sure they were too busy to be watching Roy. Early Electric Light Orchestra had a huge impact on me when I was growing up, and it still is very near and dear to my heart. Off I go then... End of Useless Information #385 ******************************* [This digest is the copyright of the Move "Useless Information" Mailing List. Re-publication or re-distribution of "Useless Information" content, in any form whatsoever, is expressly prohibited without prior written consent.]