"Mosdefgo","How to count points.","2009-02-12 19:22:29","I am trying to improve my game in the hopes to get to at least 
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5k. I have been doing go problems, playing lots of games and even had some of my games reviewed. But I still need to practice another skill. That is, counting points and the plays themselves. The first is easier for me and the other leaves me at a total loss.
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So, how do you count points?"
"burrito","","2009-02-12 20:37:27","I found these counting lessons very valuable:
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[URL=\"http://senseis.xmp.net/?SteveFawthrop%2FCounting\"]http://senseis.xmp.net/?SteveFawthrop%2FCounting[/URL]"
"Andrea","","2009-02-13 14:16:59","[QUOTE=burrito]I found these counting lessons very valuable[/QUOTE]Thank you for the link, they did make very interesting reading. I assume though, that the count-each-prisoner-as-a-pair part of the technique only applies in \"Japanese\"-style territory scoring?"
"xela","","2009-02-13 15:12:46","[QUOTE=Andrea]Thank you for the link, they did make very interesting reading. I assume though, that the count-each-prisoner-as-a-pair part of the technique only applies in \"Japanese\"-style territory scoring?[/QUOTE]
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No, it works exactly the same for Chinese-style scoring.  Every prisoner you've taken off the board means your opponent has one less stone on the board, hence one less point at the end of the game, so it all works out.
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(Don't worry, this wasn't obvious to me the first time I asked the question, it took some figuring out.)"
"burrito","","2009-02-13 15:23:46","Yes, the technique in those lessons assume japanese scoring where you are keeping track of prisoners.  However, as a practical matter if you count the prisoners I think you'll get the same result as chinese counting would, at least up to any point short of the very end of the game."
"Legume","","2009-02-13 16:06:50","Once you can count points, the next thing you want to work on is counting out the value of moves.
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[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6fFqhod8L0&feature=channel_page[/url]
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[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTWp-woVBSI&feature=channel_page[/url]
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He more or less clearly explains the methodology behind counting the value of moves."
"Bill Spight","","2009-02-13 16:09:33","[QUOTE=burrito]Yes, the technique in those lessons assume japanese scoring where you are keeping track of prisoners.  However, as a practical matter if you count the prisoners I think you'll get the same result as chinese counting would, at least up to any point short of the very end of the game.[/QUOTE]\
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As long as you count points for territory and one way dame in seki, the count will be the same for territory and area counting after a White play (because the number of played stones will be the same for each side), and one point more for Black by area scoring after a Black play (because Black will have played one more stone than White). At the end of play you might get situations where one player has passed more than the other one, and you can adjust for the difference is stone count because of that. You might also have to adjust for handicap stones, depending on the rules you are playing under."
"Andrea","","2009-02-13 18:22:48","[QUOTE=xela]No, it works exactly the same for Chinese-style scoring.  Every prisoner you've taken off the board means your opponent has one less stone on the board, hence one less point at the end of the game, so it all works out.[/QUOTE]Er... Are you sure? The point of counting in pairs in the articles seemed to be because, under territory-scoring, a prisoner counts twice, once for the stone, and once for the point under it. In area scoring, wouldn't each prisoner only count once, for the point under it? :confused:"
"xela","","2009-02-13 18:46:42","[QUOTE=Andrea]Er... Are you sure?[/QUOTE]
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Yes, I'm absolutely sure.  I could try to explain in detail, but in the long term you'll see it more clearly if you work it out for yourself.  As I said, I found this very surprising at first.
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Do post again if you think further discussion would be helpful."
"Sakata","","2009-02-13 20:39:00","[QUOTE=Andrea]Er... Are you sure? The point of counting in pairs in the articles seemed to be because, under territory-scoring, a prisoner counts twice, once for the stone, and once for the point under it. In area scoring, wouldn't each prisoner only count once, for the point under it? :confused:[/QUOTE]
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With Japanese and Chinese scoring producing pretty much the same result what difference does it make?  They only differ by one at most.  If you can count that accurately that it matters, then you certainly don't need any lessons."
"xed_over","","2009-02-13 21:08:14","[go]$$\
$$---------\
$$|.......|\
$$|...XX..|\
$$|XX..WXX|\
$$|OXXXXOO|\
$$|OOOOOO.|\
$$|.......|\
$$|.......|\
$$---------\
[/go]\
\
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lets try it out\
pair: B, 7 pairs + 1 W prisoner = 8(16 points)\
[INDENT]W, 7 1/2 pairs = 7 1/2 (15 points)[/INDENT]\
score = B+1\
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terr: B, 15 points (W prisoner is placed back in W's terr)\
[INDENT]W, 14 points (15 - 1) [/INDENT]\
score = B+1\
\
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area: B, 15 points + 10 stones = 25 points\
[INDENT]W, 15 points + 9 stones (prisoner don't count) = 24 points[/INDENT]\
score = B+1\
\
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hummmm... half counting by pairs comes out the same :)"
"Andrea","","2009-02-13 22:21:30","[QUOTE=xela]Yes, I'm absolutely sure.  I could try to explain in detail, but in the long term you'll see it more clearly if you work it out for yourself.  As I said, I found this very surprising at first.[/QUOTE]Yes, I see. I worked through a few example games all three ways, and I think I've got it."
"Cookiex","","2009-02-16 07:03:32","is there a technique to do it faster than just experience?
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meaning a beginner will take a alot of time counting the value where a danplayer will know it almost instantly. is there any way for beginners to learn it faster than just experiencing it enough?"
"burrito","","2009-02-16 10:50:07","[QUOTE=Cookiex]is there a technique to do it faster than just experience?  
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meaning a beginner will take a alot of time counting the value where a danplayer will know it almost instantly. is there any way for beginners to learn it faster than just experiencing it enough?[/QUOTE]
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Well, the technique in those lessons is very quick.  And, once you count a position, you should be able to remember the size and adjust that value through game play later.  Unless you are playing too quickly, it shouldn't be hard.
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That being said, there are some generally guideline that tell you how much a corner is worth and how much extensions are worth, etc...  You can also just eyeball it and say \"this corner is about the size of that corner and my top side is a little bigger than his left side, so I'm slightly ahead.\"  I don't know any way to learn that except by experience.  One tip - if you review your games, try loading them in cgoban and using the score estimator. It's far from perfect, but it will give you a useful data point to compare your count to.  
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In any event, I wouldn't worry too much about it.  If you count points even once during a game, you'll be ahead of 95% of all non-dan players.  I try to do a full count after the opening, to adjust my mid-game play depending on how far ahead/behind I am, and again as the end game approaches as a sanity check.  It really depends on how serious the game is."
"Zahlman","","2009-02-16 12:32:38","[QUOTE=Cookiex]is there a technique to do it faster than just experience?
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meaning a beginner will take a alot of time counting the value where a danplayer will know it almost instantly. is there any way for beginners to learn it faster than just experiencing it enough?[/QUOTE]
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Estimation does not take that much experience to get up to speed. As a child, you presumably learned pretty quickly how to cross the street without getting run over, or what size glass would be filled by the remaining orange juice in the pitcher. :)
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Exact counting can be sped up with practice, but serious games that are meaningfully guided by an exact count are usually not fast games. The pros often have to split important games over two days, after all. A significant amount of that time is spent on things other than reading. :)
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That said, I have developed rapid techniques for exact counting of the large majority of 9x9 games. Interestingly, they are based on area rather than territory. :)
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[QUOTE=xela]Yes, I'm absolutely sure.  I could try to explain in detail, but in the long term you'll see it more clearly if you work it out for yourself.[/QUOTE]
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It does not require a detailed explanation; it only requires an elementary understanding of algebra. In area counting, the prisoner counts once for the player capturing it (for the space under the stone), and [b]also once against[/b] the player who was captured (for no longer having that stone occupying the board)."
"Christien","","2009-02-16 20:35:04","Not sure if this was mentioned but: Weren't the lectures on sensei's Dr straws counting lectures?"
"xela","","2009-02-17 03:56:46","[QUOTE=Christien]Not sure if this was mentioned but: Weren't the lectures on sensei's Dr straws counting lectures?[/QUOTE]
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Yes, Steve Fawthrop and DrStraw are the same person."
"Cookiex","","2009-02-17 05:57:35","there is a book called \"Positional Judgement: High Speed Game Analysis by Cho Chikun\" that book helped me loads. i read it when i was around 8k and it boosted my rank by 2 almost instantly after reading it twice."
"Mosdefgo","","2009-02-18 13:59:02","[QUOTE=Cookiex]there is a book called \"Positional Judgement: High Speed Game Analysis by Cho Chikun\" that book helped me loads. i read it when i was around 8k and it boosted my rank by 2 almost instantly after reading it twice.[/QUOTE]
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Well I am only about 9k on KGS and go books are [U]scarce[/U] here in Ohio. I cant even find a good sized Go board.
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The lessons helped me just, not in the way that I was truely asking. What I want to know is about how many spaces away from the stone should I count before it is not considered to be my or my opponent's territory?
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Also to who ever it was thanks for the videos on youtube about the value of moves. :D"
"Cookiex","","2009-02-18 14:02:48","the way i count is the minimum possible territory of either side.\
so for example if you have a 2 space extention on the 3rd line that would make 4 points.\
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[go]$$\
$$---------\
$$|.C..C..|\
$$|.C..C..|\
$$|.OCCO..|\
$$|.......|\
$$|.......|\
$$|.......|\
$$|.......|\
$$---------\
[/go]\
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anything on the outside or a wall is considered influence not points. you have to treat points and influence completely different. someone could be ahead on points but have NO potential for the rest of the game and still lose.\
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so counting away from the stone is something i avoid, i only count cash and knowing the current cash difference i evaluate the position. walls, weak groups, big points on the board possible endgame moves. by doing this you can make a pretty accurate estimation wether you are winning or losing."
"xela","","2009-02-18 14:22:31","[QUOTE=Mosdefgo]...go books are [U]scarce[/U] here in Ohio...[/QUOTE]
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Go books are scarce in most of the world outside Asia.  There are various places where you can buy them online."
"Cookiex","","2009-02-18 14:27:12","you can always order online... amazon, ebay you name it. im sure its not that hard to get if you're willing to pay the shipping costs"
"Mosdefgo","","2009-02-18 14:41:08","Ok.
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So using your method this enclosure is worth 11 points.
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Right?
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[sgf](;CA[Windows-1252]SZ[9]AP[MultiGo:4.4.4]MULTIGOGM[1]
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;B[eg];AB[gf]CR[hf][if][fg][eh][ei])[/sgf]"
"xela","","2009-02-18 14:49:37","[QUOTE=Mosdefgo](broken diagram)[/QUOTE]\
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I think you need an [sgf] tag not a [go] tag.\
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(edit: fixed now!)"
"Mosdefgo","","2009-02-18 15:05:33","Sorry, I didnt even notice that. 0_0
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Making a diagram seems too time consuming though."
"xela","","2009-02-18 15:27:26","[QUOTE=Mosdefgo]Making a diagram seems too time consuming though.[/QUOTE]
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A useful tool: [url]http://senseis.xmp.net/tools/sgf2diagram.php[/url]
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but the SGF works fine too."
"Mosdefgo","","2009-02-19 15:50:38","I watched the videos from Youtube about counting the value of moves. It was very hard for me to understand the teacher on some parts. Could someone give me even just a summary of what he said?"
"Cookiex","","2009-02-19 23:24:10","you have to look at the potential outcome of each move, and make a summation of the difference.
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for example, if white plays it will reduce black by 3 and give white 2 so thats a 5 point difference, if black plays there it will reduce white by 3 and give black 2 so thats another 5. so the move is 10 points in value.
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when trying to estimate the value of a gote move for you and sente for your opponent you assume your opponent gets the move.
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if the move is sente for you and gote for your opponent you assume you get to play that move.
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if the move is gote for both. you split the points 50/50.
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thats basically a short summation, the hardest part is seeing the difference in points when reading it out. i can hardly do it with the stones on the board! :eek:"
"Mosdefgo","","2009-02-20 13:10:17","[QUOTE=Cookiex]for example, if white plays it will reduce black by 3 and give white 2 so thats a 5 point difference, if black plays there it will reduce white by 3 and give black 2 so thats another 5. so the move is 10 points in value...[/QUOTE]
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Ok I see. Thanks. :D"
"phillip1882","","2009-03-24 05:26:59","in my opinion, there is a difference between the two scoring systems.
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lets take the following position
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9+++++++++
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8+++++++++
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7++b++++++
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6bb+++bbbb
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5wwbbbwwww
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4+wwww++++
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3+++++++++
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2+++++++++
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1++++++++b
\
 abcdefghi
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lets say black just played i1 as his latest move.
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then both sides pass
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bofore i1: white territory, 5+27 = 32
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black territory = 18+8+3 = 29
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chinese: white stones = 10 
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black stones = 10
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white winning by 3.
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japanese: 
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captures, black = 0 , white = 0
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white winning by 3.
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after i1:
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chinese: after i1 removed, territory and stones are the same.
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japanese: 
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total territory the same, however,
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white has +1 captures, white now winning by 4. 
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in short, chinese rules make it so playing and responding to useless invasions doesnt hurt you,
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and japanese rules make it so playing and responding to useless invasions can hurt you."
"xed_over","","2009-03-24 10:25:18","reformatted for easier viewing
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[QUOTE=phillip1882]in my opinion, there is a difference between the two scoring systems.
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lets take the following position
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[go]$$c
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$$-----------------
\
$$| . . . . . . . . . |
\
$$| . . . . . . . . . |
\
$$| . . X . . . . . . |
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$$| X X . . . X X X X |
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$$| O O X X X O O O O |
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$$| . O O O O . . . . |
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$$| . . . . . . . . . |
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$$| . . . . . . . . . |
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$$| . . . . . . . . X |
\
$$---------------------
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[/go]
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lets say black just played i1 as his latest move.
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then both sides pass
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before J1: white territory, 5+27 = 32
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black territory = 18+8+3 = 29
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chinese: white stones = 10 
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black stones = 10
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white winning by 3.
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japanese: 
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captures, black = 0 , white = 0
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white winning by 3.
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after J1:
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chinese: after J1 removed, territory and stones are the same.
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japanese: 
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total territory the same, however,
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white has +1 captures, white now winning by 4. 
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in short, chinese rules make it so playing and responding to useless invasions doesnt hurt you,
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and japanese rules make it so playing and responding to useless invasions can hurt you.[/QUOTE]
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your observations about the differences in scoring systems are correct."
"flOvermind","","2009-03-25 07:43:07","The difference in this example is because:\
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Black played one more stone than white, so there is one point difference.\
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Area and territory scoring are the same IF both players play the same number of moves. Given that it's pretty unusual for someone to pass in midgame, this difference can at most be one point when black gets the last move. That's exactly the difference you are observing in this example.\
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[QUOTE=philipp1882]in short, chinese rules make it so playing and responding to useless invasions doesnt hurt you,\
and japanese rules make it so playing and responding to useless invasions can hurt you.[/QUOTE]\
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You can also see this the other way round. Making useless invasions when the opponent doesn't need to respond hurts you in territory rules, while it makes no difference in area rules. Also, unnecessarily defending inside your own territory hurts you under territory rules, while making no difference in area rules.\
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Generally speaking, territory rules are \"sharper\" than (pure) area rules. In territory rules, you are rewarded for playing sente and punished for playing gote or useless moves, even when there are no other moves left on the board afterwards. But these situations only ever happen when one player makes a mistake, with correct play it's still 1 point difference at most.\
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As a side note, the same is true for button go, which combines the advantages of area and territory rules ;)"
"Zahlman","","2009-03-26 14:10:28","[QUOTE=flOvermind]Generally speaking, territory rules are \"sharper\" than (pure) area rules. In territory rules, you are rewarded for playing sente and punished for playing gote or useless moves, even when there are no other moves left on the board afterwards.[/QUOTE]
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In that sense, yes. But in another important sense, area scoring is \"sharper\" than territory scoring, because it makes you play out things that wouldn't make a difference in territory scoring in an effort to get the last point. There are situations in area scoring, for example, where it is correct to throw in to make a half-point ko (because you have more threats and will gain a point of area this way), where it would never be correct in territory scoring (because you cannot make territory and can only break even on ko-captures and will probably go down one)."
"flOvermind","","2009-03-27 04:18:22","[QUOTE=Zahlman]In that sense, yes. But in another important sense, area scoring is \"sharper\" than territory scoring, because it makes you play out things that wouldn't make a difference in territory scoring in an effort to get the last point. There are situations in area scoring, for example, where it is correct to throw in to make a half-point ko (because you have more threats and will gain a point of area this way), where it would never be correct in territory scoring (because you cannot make territory and can only break even on ko-captures and will probably go down one).[/QUOTE]\
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Ah, yes, of course. I remember a game where a pro made exactly this mistake. It led to a quite long discussion about rules ;)"
"Nerlth","","2009-03-28 18:05:54","[QUOTE=burrito]I found these counting lessons very valuable:
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[URL=\"http://senseis.xmp.net/?SteveFawthrop%2FCounting\"]http://senseis.xmp.net/?SteveFawthrop%2FCounting[/URL][/QUOTE]
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How do you get your browser to show them as SGF files? I'm using safari."
"Vultur","","2009-03-28 18:18:04","[QUOTE=Nerlth]How do you get your browser to show them as SGF files? I'm using safari.[/QUOTE]
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If you are interested in Firefox, [URL=\"http://eidogo.com/\"]eidogo[/URL] has a Firefox plugin, but no ideas for Safari users.
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Your best bet is to download the files and then open them in whatever SGF reader you have."
"Nerlth","","2009-03-28 18:24:47","I don't see where you download it..."
"LP Jent","","2009-03-28 18:27:50","[QUOTE=Nerlth]I don't see where you download it...[/QUOTE]
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right click on it.. or.. maybe apple click? I don't know..
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It should have a save file as somewhere in that menu though, if apple has such a thing?"
"Nerlth","","2009-03-28 18:39:20","It ends up downloading as a txt file... so I can't use CGoban3... Oh well..."
"Phelan","","2009-03-28 18:51:07","Change the extension to .sgf, perhaps?
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If that doesn't work, it could be a file association problem. I think there was a thread here discussing that, but couldn't find it."
"xela","","2009-03-28 21:59:07","[QUOTE=Nerlth]It ends up downloading as a txt file... so I can't use CGoban3... Oh well...[/QUOTE]
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Start CGboban3 and click on the button \"Edit SGF File\".  A \"Load SGF File\" dialogue box should pop up.  At the bottom of that window there should be a menu saying \"Files of type:\"  Select the \"All Files\" option.  Now you can navigate to where you saved that txt file, and open it."
"Tommie","another visual imagination method","2009-10-11 23:37:01","[QUOTE=xed_over]
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[go]$$
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$$---------
\
$$|.......|
\
$$|...XX..|
\
$$|XX..WXX|
\
$$|OXXXXOO|
\
$$|OOOOOO.|
\
$$|.......|
\
$$|.......|
\
$$---------
\
[/go]
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lets try it out
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(...)
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score = B+1
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[/QUOTE]
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My approach for counting this very special example is different:
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I imagine the 2 black stones shifted to the gap in the wall, where they fit snugly 
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[go]$$
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$$---------
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$$|.......|
\
$$|...BB..|
\
$$|XX..WXX|
\
$$|OXXXXOO|
\
$$|OOOOOO.|
\
$$|.......|
\
$$|.......|
\
$$---------
\
[/go]
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[go]$$
\
$$---------
\
$$|.......|
\
$$|.......|
\
$$|XXBBWXX|
\
$$|OXXXXOO|
\
$$|OOOOOOe|
\
$$|.......|
\
$$|.......|
\
$$---------
\
[/go]
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...the I can see at a glance, that Black has won by 1 point,
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because Black's vacant point is filled with a prisoner WC,
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while White's point E is empty.
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The example is special, because both black and white's territories are rectangular without dents or protrusions."