"Imagist","Arguments over the board","2009-06-14 22:03:05","I have found the go community to be very polite overall. Most players accept defeat gracefully and are very respectful both to those much weaker and to those much stronger.\ \ However, the one case where I see people get very rude is when people are sure that the other person is wrong. For example, in the following position:\ \ [go]\ $$ ------------------\ $$ | X . O X . . . . .\ $$ | X O O X . . . . .\ $$ | X . O X . . . . .\ $$ | O O O X . . . . .\ $$ | . X . X . . . . .\ $$ | . X . X . . . . .\ $$ | . . . . . . . . .\ $$ | . . . . . . . . .\ $$ | . . . . . . . . . \ [/go]\ \ This situation comes up occasionally in my games (me as black). When it does, I prepare for an argument because people my rank almost universally don't know that [URL=\"http://senseis.xmp.net/?BentFourInTheCornerIsDead\"]white is dead here[/URL]. Every such argument has resulted in me being called a name of some sort (the only one appropriate to be repeated here being the somewhat odd \"silly-man\").\ \ Mind you, I've been called much worse things by my friends in political arguments, but it still surprises me given that, as I said, go players are uncommonly polite as a whole.\ \ Has anyone else noticed this? Specifically, that go players are always polite until you tell them that they're wrong?" "sol.ch","","2009-06-14 22:17:17","[QUOTE=Imagist] \ This situation comes up occasionally in my games (me as black). When it does, I prepare for an argument because people my rank almost universally don't know that [URL=\"http://senseis.xmp.net/?BentFourInTheCornerIsDead\"]white is dead here[/URL]. Every such argument has resulted in me being called a name of some sort (the only one appropriate to be repeated here being the somewhat odd \"silly-man\"). \ [/QUOTE] \ \ Don't need to argue if you use Chinese rules. \ \ [QUOTE=Imagist]Mind you, I've been called much worse things by my friends in political arguments, but it still surprises me given that, as I said, go players are uncommonly polite as a whole. \ \ Has anyone else noticed this? Specifically, that go players are always polite until you tell them that they're wrong?[/QUOTE] \ \ The Go community is far more civilized than the other communities I've partaken in the past (i.e: Warcraft 3/Starcraft community, blog designing/createblog community, etc.), but I've also noticed that the ego level in the Go community is unusually high as well. Go Go Ego?" "flOvermind","","2009-06-15 01:54:41","Even with Japanese rules, you can demonstrate to them it's dead by playing it out. Just remember to restore the original position after playing it out, so the score won't be affected.\ \ If you get an argument against that, you can show them this position:\ \ [go]$$ Seki? Prove me wrong ;)\ $$ ---------------\ $$ . X . O O . X .\ $$ . X X X X X X .\ $$ . . . . . . . .\ [/go]\ \ This is exactly the same situation. You still have to restore the position after you play it out, otherwise black loses 2 points.\ \ \ Generally speaking, if you state something and can't argue for it, it's understandable that someone doesn't believe it, no matter how obvious it may seem to you. After all, when you can't prove it, are you really sure it's obvious?" "sol.ch","","2009-06-15 02:16:53","[QUOTE=flOvermind]Even with Japanese rules, you can demonstrate to them it's dead by playing it out. Just remember to restore the original position after playing it out, so the score won't be affected. \ [/QUOTE] \ \ The problem with this is that the opponent may try to argue that the end position after ko threats are removed and points are lost for the side trying to make the argument that the bent 4 is dead is acceptable but that the original position without the ko threats removed is not. Not the case w/ Chinese rules." "flOvermind","","2009-06-15 02:23:38","But it's a bit arbitrary to restore the position only *sometimes*. Why treat removed ko threats differently than any other move required to capture the disputed stones? \ \ At least now I get to use the \"you're being inconsistent\" argument ;) \ \ Of course with area rules you don't have this problem because you can just capture in the game... But nobody plays using area rules (at least where I'm from)." "sol.ch","","2009-06-15 02:29:15","[QUOTE=flOvermind]But it's a bit arbitrary to restore the position only *sometimes*. Why treat removed ko threats differently than any other move required to capture the disputed stones?\ \ At least now I get to use the \"you're being inconsistent\" argument ;)\ \ Of course with area rules you don't have this problem because you can just capture in the game... But nobody plays using area rules (at least where I'm from).[/QUOTE]\ \ Well of course the issue can also arise from the question you ask here (which you also brought up in your previous post). I'm not treating removed ko threats any differently than any other move required to capture disputed stones other than the fact that one of these is more often well-grasped upon by the opponents you play...and hence why area rules wins (which it seems we can both agree on).\ \ So the solution is simple: More people for area rules! (or AGA...other than the quirky but necessary pass stone rule, it's a great way to switch between the two rules)." "flOvermind","","2009-06-15 05:21:56","Button go FTW! \ \ (Other than that I agree :p )" "zinger","","2009-06-15 05:38:40","Yeah, just post your games with AGA rules or chinese rules. Hardly anybody checks before the game starts anyway." "ShadeWolf","","2009-06-15 08:23:42","I don't understand, I thought that position is seki :o" "flOvermind","","2009-06-15 08:39:25","[go]$$ 2,4 = pass\ $$ ------------------\ $$ | X 5 O X . . . . .\ $$ | X O O X . . . . .\ $$ | X 6 O X . . . . .\ $$ | O O O X . . . . .\ $$ | 3 X 1 X . . . . .\ $$ | . X . X . . . . .\ $$ | . . . . . . . . .\ $$ | . . . . . . . . .\ $$ | . . . . . . . . . \ [/go]\ \ [go]\ $$ ------------------\ $$ | 8 9 O X . . . . .\ $$ | 7 O O X . . . . .\ $$ | . O O X . . . . .\ $$ | O O O X . . . . .\ $$ | X X X X . . . . .\ $$ | . X . X . . . . .\ $$ | . . . . . . . . .\ $$ | . . . . . . . . .\ $$ | . . . . . . . . . \ [/go]\ \ [go]$$ white is in atari and has no ko threats\ $$ ------------------\ $$ | . X O X . . . . .\ $$ | X O O X . . . . .\ $$ | . O O X . . . . .\ $$ | O O O X . . . . .\ $$ | X X X X . . . . .\ $$ | . X . X . . . . .\ $$ | . . . . . . . . .\ $$ | . . . . . . . . .\ $$ | . . . . . . . . . \ [/go]\ \ Why does white not have any ko threats?\ \ With Japanese rules there is a rule that after the end of the game, when playing out disputed stones, the only allowed ko threat is a pass*. That means black won't start this sequence, but simply pass. If white doesn't believe the stones are really dead, the game is resumed, but now white has only pass as ko threats, so black can capture using the sequence shown...\ \ With area rules (chinese, AGA, ...), black just removes all ko threats *before* playing out this sequence. In area rules this usually doesn't cost any points. So black can again kill white using the above sequence.\ \ The only case where this is not dead is area rules when there is an unremovable ko threat on the board. In that case, the status is an ordinary ko.\ \ Note that in no case white can force black to actually start the ko. In the rare case that black chooses not to start the ko it's seki, but black will only do that when there are unremovable ko threats of the correct size on the board.\ \ \ * This rule is just a shortcut for first removing all ko threats, playing the ko, possibly ignoring some unremovable ko threat while killing and then restoring the original position. The key observation here is that in Japanese rules, the only thing that matters in the dispute phase is the life and death of the groups in question. The score itself must not change just because the opponent is stubborn and disputes every single dead stone..." "daniel_the_smith","","2009-06-15 09:09:52","[QUOTE=Imagist](snip) I prepare for an argument because people my rank almost universally don't know that [URL=\"http://senseis.xmp.net/?BentFourInTheCornerIsDead\"]white is dead here[/URL]. (snip)[/QUOTE] \ \ Huh? Aren't you ~ 2k?? Where do you find people that take white against you and don't know this? I don't think I could find a 10k that didn't know this. \ \ But regardless, this is a good argument for not teaching people Japanese rules to begin with. Under AGA or Chinese rules you could just play it out. Under AGA rules you can even still do Japanese style counting. \ \ To settle the dispute in the proper Japanese way I think you have to play it out on a second board to settle the status. Someone who doesn't know this is dead is also very unlikely to know this, and will probably think you're trying to pull some weird shenanigan if you try to do this. \ \ It's helpful if there's a high dan player that can glance over and say \"that's dead\" \ \ I agree go players have egos, but in my experience we will admit it when we're wrong, too...." "fwiffo","","2009-06-15 10:12:25","Actually, I think most 10k would get it wrong, or at least have some confusion about what qualifies as \"bent four in the corner\". For example: \ \ [go]$$ Bent four rule \ $$ ------------- \ $$ | X X . O X . \ $$ | X O O O X . \ $$ | . O . . X . \ $$ | O O . X . . \ $$ | X X X . . . \ $$ | . . . . . .[/go] \ \ \ [go]$$ Direct ko \ $$ ------------- \ $$ | X X X O X . \ $$ | X O O O X . \ $$ | . O . X X . \ $$ | O O X . . . \ $$ | X X X . . . \ $$ | . . . . . .[/go] \ \ \ [go]$$ Unsettled (white can live, black can get ko) \ $$ ------------- \ $$ | X X X O X . \ $$ | X O O O X . \ $$ | . O . . X . \ $$ | O O X . X . \ $$ | X X X . . . \ $$ | . . . . . .[/go] \ \ \ [go]$$ Alive by oshi-tsubushi \ $$ ------------- \ $$ | X X X O X . \ $$ | X O O O X . \ $$ | . O . . X . \ $$ | O O . X . . \ $$ | X X X . . . \ $$ | . . . . . .[/go] \ \ \ Of course, only the first diagram is covered under the Japanese \"bent four\" rule. A lot of kyu players would think the first diagram is seki and the others are \"bent four\". I think the confusion is understandable; the first diagram is the only one that doesn't contain the bent-four shape." "daniel_the_smith","","2009-06-15 10:57:17","True, I've seen 1d players misplay that, but only in the opposite direction from the OP's example (i.e., they thought it was dead when it can make ko/live) \ \ Still, I'm having a hard time imagining a player > 5k both not knowing this *and* stubbornly insisting they were right. \ \ (Originally I confused the OP's diagram for the following case, which is much easier to prove dead. But I'll stick with my revised 5k estimate ^^) \ \ [go]$$ This is what 10ks should definitely know... \ $$ ------------------ \ $$ | . X O X . . . . . \ $$ | O X O X . . . . . \ $$ | . X O X . . . . . \ $$ | O O O X . . . . . \ $$ | . X . X . . . . . \ $$ | . X . X . . . . . \ $$ | . . . . . . . . . \ $$ | . . . . . . . . . \ $$ | . . . . . . . . . \ [/go]" "flOvermind","","2009-06-15 12:54:13","I think the main problem here is reading out something that involves a ko or oshi-tsubushi. At least I often have problems with that. \ \ I'm pretty sure if I wouldn't know about bent four, I would not be able to arrive at the correct solutions to any of fwiffos diagrams, even when knowing the underlying rules... At least not without a lot of reading time, which is unlikely in a casual game... \ \ The other diagram is a simple connect-and-die situation that becomes really obvious as soon as the outside liberties are filled, and any white move reduces to a basic dead shape. So there is not really any room for reading errors ;)" "shapenaji","","2009-06-15 15:27:51","I agree with Sol.ch, Area scoring ftw! \ \ to me, a bent four, with an unremoveable ko threat on the board, is alive. And Area scoring would prove that." "mgelo","","2009-06-15 16:28:19","Yes I remember initiating (and losing) an argument about [I]en passant[/I] rule in chess. \ Same thing I guess. Yes, some 2-3k never studied L&D...\ [FONT=courier]\ [/FONT]" "sol.ch","","2009-06-15 16:35:07","Since mgelo edited out his post, I'll just leave this here to anyone just wondering about the status:\ \ Unconditional life if it's White's turn:\ \ [go]$$W \ $$ -------------\ $$ | . . . O X .\ $$ | . O O O X .\ $$ | 1 O . . X .\ $$ | O O X . X .\ $$ | X X X . . .\ $$ | . . . . . .\ [/go]\ \ [go]$$\ $$ -------------\ $$ | 2 1 . O X .\ $$ | 3 O O O X .\ $$ | O O . . X .\ $$ | O O X . X .\ $$ | X X X . . .\ $$ | . . . . . .\ [/go]\ \ [go]$$W\ $$ -------------\ $$ | . X 1 O X .\ $$ | X O O O X .\ $$ | O O . . X .\ $$ | O O X . X .\ $$ | X X X . . .\ $$ | . . . . . .[/go]" "mgelo","","2009-06-15 16:36:46","And my own post proves this point..." "flOvermind","","2009-06-16 04:34:21","[QUOTE=shapenaji]to me, a bent four, with an unremoveable ko threat on the board, is alive. And Area scoring would prove that.[/QUOTE]\ \ It depends.\ \ When the unremovable ko threat is not large enough, it's simply ko, not alive. It will be killed, but with compensation elsewhere.\ \ When the unremovable ko threat loses points, it's still alive, but with compensation for the attacker elsewhere.\ \ Except when the unremovable ko threat loses more points than the corner is worth. Then it's again dead ;)\ \ EDIT: All that of course only when the result is better for the attacker than seki. Otherwise it's seki ;)" "HermanHiddema","","2009-06-16 04:50:17","[QUOTE=shapenaji] \ to me, a bent four, with an unremoveable ko threat on the board, is alive. And Area scoring would prove that.[/QUOTE] \ \ \ How about this black group: \ \ [go]$$B \ $$ ------------------ \ $$ . O X . O O . X O . \ $$ . O X X X X X X O . \ $$ . O O O O O O O O . \ $$ . . . . . . . . . . \ [/go] \ \ Alive, or dead?" "Fedya","","2009-06-16 05:56:49","[QUOTE=sol.ch]Since mgelo edited out his post, I'll just leave this here to anyone just wondering about the status: \ \ Unconditional life if it's White's turn: \ \ [go]$$W \ $$ ------------- \ $$ | . . . O X . \ $$ | . O O O X . \ $$ | 1 O . . X . \ $$ | O O X . X . \ $$ | X X X . . . \ $$ | . . . . . . \ [/go][/QUOTE] \ \ [go]$$W \ $$ ------------- \ $$ | . b . O X . \ $$ | a O O O X . \ $$ | . O . . X . \ $$ | O O X . X . \ $$ | X X X . . . \ $$ | . . . . . . \ [/go] \ \ Why complicate things? White could play 1 at a or b -- or tenuki, since those two points are miai. ;)" "OxideNt","","2009-06-16 06:01:40","[QUOTE=Fedya][go]$$W \ $$ ------------- \ $$ | . b . O X . \ $$ | a O O O X . \ $$ | . O . . X . \ $$ | O O X . X . \ $$ | X X X . . . \ $$ | . . . . . . \ [/go] \ \ Why complicate things? White could play 1 at a or b -- or tenuki, since those two points are miai. ;)[/QUOTE] \ \ I think Sol.ch tried to show that white is unconditionally alive even with the bentfour-nakade shape when white has enough outside liberties." "sol.ch","","2009-06-16 07:34:23","[QUOTE=Fedya][go]$$W \ $$ ------------- \ $$ | . b . O X . \ $$ | a O O O X . \ $$ | . O . . X . \ $$ | O O X . X . \ $$ | X X X . . . \ $$ | . . . . . . \ [/go] \ \ Why complicate things? White could play 1 at a or b -- or tenuki, since those two points are miai. ;)[/QUOTE] \ Because that's not the original position, the 1 in my diagram captures 4 stones." "flOvermind","","2009-06-16 13:35:07","[QUOTE=HermanHiddema]How about this black group: \ \ [go]$$B \ $$ ------------------ \ $$ . O X . O O . X O . \ $$ . O X X X X X X O . \ $$ . O O O O O O O O . \ $$ . . . . . . . . . . \ [/go] \ \ Alive, or dead?[/QUOTE] \ \ Maybe I'm missing the point here, but why shouldn't this be dead? And what does this have to do with bent 4?" "shapenaji","","2009-06-16 15:03:24","[QUOTE=flOvermind]It depends. \ \ When the unremovable ko threat is not large enough, it's simply ko, not alive. It will be killed, but with compensation elsewhere. \ \ When the unremovable ko threat loses points, it's still alive, but with compensation for the attacker elsewhere. \ \ Except when the unremovable ko threat loses more points than the corner is worth. Then it's again dead ;) \ \ EDIT: All that of course only when the result is better for the attacker than seki. Otherwise it's seki ;)[/QUOTE] \ \ Indeed, in those 3 cases it would not be a ko threat. My brevity assumed that the threat was large enough and yet did not lose as much. Those threats are actually the most common kind of unremoveable threat I think. Think of 3 stones making a very large group seki."