Subject: Re: [FG]: Under water Tubines

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 22:18:03 -0700

Nanook:

With the recent rush to use LiIon batteries for just about everything.  A set of new hybrid switching control chips are available that promise ease of use to the engineer.
Electronics becomes very easy once the power is available.    

Current projects are a blast, and the energy savings can be calculated into an "upgrade and maintenance" budget.  If I could only figure out how to make this into a six figure income I would be all set. :-)

---- Nanook <[email-masked]> wrote: 
> 
>      I live in Shoreline but I haven't got any.  I read about an achored boey
> concept years ago where you have a boey that floats, an anchor, and the action
> of the waves cause the boey to bob up and down relative to the anchor moving
> magnets up and down in a coil producing electricity.  It's low frequency
> electricity to be sure but then that can be addresssed with electronics. I
> wonder if any of these are actually in use now and how they are working.
> 
> -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-
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>    Knowledgable human assistance, not telephone trees or script readers.
>  See our web site: http://www.eskimo.com/ (206) 812-0051 or (800) 246-6874.
> 
> On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 [email-masked] wrote:
> > 
> > On the do-it-yourself note, all you need is a hunk of shoreline and a
> > bundle of $$dough$$ For the rest of us who live in places like North Texas
> > wind is much more suitable.  The trick is not making it attractive, that's
> > easy.  just go rustic.
> 
>

---

From: Nanook <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 22:36:42 -0700 (PDT)

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 [email-masked] wrote:
> 
> Nanook:
> 
> With the recent rush to use LiIon batteries for just about everything.  A
> set of new hybrid switching control chips are available that promise ease
> of use to the engineer. Electronics becomes very easy once the power is
> available.
> 
> Current projects are a blast, and the energy savings can be calculated into
> an "upgrade and maintenance" budget.  If I could only figure out how to
> make this into a six figure income I would be all set. :-)

     They make DC to AC conversion equipment for converting power from DC high
voltage transmission lines back to AC that operate at gigawatt power levels, so
the problem is small scale by contrast.

     They've got one DC line in Sweden that operates at 1.8 megavolts (which is
as high as they go because beyond that the corona losses exceed IR losses). I
was amazed that solid state devices could handle that voltage but they actually
stack triac like devices (four layer devices).

     With respect to lithium-ion batteries, there propensity for going into
thermal runaway, expense, and limited recharge cycles are still problematic,
though there are some newer lithium-ion technologies that substantially reduced
the thermal runaway, increased the cycles, but cost is still problematic and I
expect it will for the forseeable future just because demand is rising faster
than supply can.

     Curious how the cost of ocean current energy verses wind compares at this
time.  Given that water is much denser than air, I would think you wouldn't
need as large of a turbine or whatever you call the blades.

---

From: Nanook <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 22:41:22 -0700 (PDT)

For those who are interested in renewable energy and other sustainability
issues, I have a blog and forum on the subject:

        http://www.eskimo.com/~nanook/future
        http://www.eskimo.com/~nanook/future/forum

     Not nearly as sexy as extracting energy from the vacuum, etc, but it's
technology that is largely available now.

     I was down at Carkeek Park the other day when it was sunny, taking
photographs, and I took one over the Puget Sound south past downtown Seattle,
and what I saw there can only be described as disgusting, this layer of
brown-orange haze, and we breath this crap.

     To me this is the real reason we need to get away from fossil fuels, not
their running out but the consequences of burning them and all the toxins we
release into the environment.

---

From: "M J Mitch Mitchell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:29:14 -0700

"With the recent rush to use LiIon batteries for just about everything."

Has anyone heard further about the batteries that I believe Toshiba claims to have produced that attain 80% charge in less than 5 minutes? If these can be produced at a reasonable cost, I can only imagine what it will do the the automotive and electronics world. Can you imagine recharging your car in less time that it would take to pump fossil fuel? "Hybrid" would take on a whole new meaning as would a battery powered vehicle. Of course, you still have the problem of generating the power to recharge, but with people like Col. Tom Bearden and his "MEG" (which I read is patented and near developement) that may not be a problem at all. Goodbye smog? Probably not, but a bunch less!

Get a preview of Live Earth, the hottest event this summer - only on MSN

---

From: Nanook <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:46:53 -0700 (PDT)

I've heard full charge in 3 minutes, 80% in 1 minute.

     It's kind of moot though for an electrical vehicle because of the charging
current that would be required.

     Let's say you design a vehicle with sufficiently low rolling resistance
and wind resistance that it can go 60 MPH on 10HP (you need more power for
acceleration, climbing hills, etc, I'm talking steady freeway speed).

     So allowing for some inefficiency in the controller, wiring, and motor,
you you need say 10Kw continuous power.  To go 300 miles you need a 50Kwh
battery.

     Now, let's assume 80% efficiency in the battery, specs I've seen for
various lithium ion batteries range from 50% to high 90's, and they are
dependent upon discharge rate; so if you have enough battery that you can keep
the discharge rate low then you'll do a lot better than say if you only have an
hours worth of driving time and discharge them fast.

     Assuming 80%, it's going to take 62.5 Kwh to charge the batteries, which
would translate 7.8 Kw over 8 hours, that's 32.55 amps on a 240 volt circuit,
very doable, or 62.5 Kw if you charge in an hour, that's 260.42 amps on a 240
volt circuit, not so doable, most houses don't have over 200 amp services,
there are occasional exceptions but few. Now if you want to charge in five
minutes, that's 750 Kw for five minutes. Now you're looking at 3,125 amps at
240 volts, that would take some impressive connectors and cabling and
definitely not doable at your home, but if they made charging stations integral
with substations, maybe, as long as all the neighbors didn't mind their lights
dimming.

     If electric cars became the norm, then I could see that kind of
infrastructure developing eventually, probably gradually; but not doable right
from the get go.

On Mon, 11 Jun 2007, M J Mitch Mitchell wrote:

> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:29:14 -0700
> From: M J Mitch Mitchell <[email-masked]>
> Reply-To: [email-masked]
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [FG]: Under water Tubines
> Resent-Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:29:20 -0700
> Resent-From: [email-masked]
> 
> 
> Has anyone heard further about the batteries that I believe Toshiba
> claims to have produced that attain 80% charge in less than 5 minutes? If
> these can be produced at a reasonable cost, I can only imagine what it
> will do the the automotive and electronics world. Can you imagine
> recharging your car in less time that it would take to pump fossil fuel?
> "Hybrid" would take on a whole new meaning as would a battery powered
> vehicle. Of course, you still have the problem of generating the power to
> recharge, but with people like Col. Tom Bearden and his "MEG" (which I
> read is patented and near developement) that may not be a problem at all.
> Goodbye smog? Probably not, but a bunch less!
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________________
>

---

From: bret cherry <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 06:17:28 -0700 (PDT)

Nanook:
I'm sure you may have heard of the Tesla Roadster by
Tesla Motors in Silicon Valley.  Despite what skeptics
have had to say about it, it is NOT a concept car.  It
has been built and will enter the market.  It utilizes
lithium ion batteries and the design appears both
sleek and simple, perhaps far more efficient than GM's
EV, a sad story in itself, it also uses Tesla's
polyphase AC system or at least a versiou of it.  

Speaking of Tesla, to dig up an old story.  Why not
power electric vehicles wirelessly with AC?  It still
doesn't appear unfeasible to me.  It just takes people
clever enough to do it.  Although many engineers stuck
in the old EE models would say otherwise.  I think we
are still catching up on ancient history, something
contemporaries, such as Bearden, some time ago.  Not
to mention Tesla, who possessed contrasting models of
atomic and subatomic particles held dear by many
physicists.  Humanity has many new and old scientific
theories to entertain, not to mention techniques in
developing EVs.  

http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php

BreTT

> this summer - only on MSN

____________________________________________________________________________________
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to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/

---

From: Nanook <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 08:56:00 -0700 (PDT)

> polyphase AC system or at least a versiou of it.  

     Yes, I have, and while in production it is priced
far beyond the reach of the average consumer, and the
number of charge / discharge cycles wouldn't be adequate
for the average consumer.  Someone that can spend that
kind of money on a car can afford to change them out every
couple of years but to be suitable for the mass market they
are going to need better longetivity.

     However, the use of an AC motor instead of DC does
make it somewhat more efficient than most but increases
controller complexity.

> clever enough to do it.

     Problems I see with it, cars are metal.  If you had an
induction system, it would also induce large currents in the
body of the car resulting in a lot of heat, noise (humming),
and wasted energy.

     Going to non-conductive components is only practical to
a point, still need wiring, motors, etc, even if the cost of
non-metallic points, and structural issues could be overcome.

> Although many engineers stuck

     Personally, I just want a Mr. Fusion powered DeLorean and
I'll be good.

---

From: Charles Ford <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 05:10:59 -0500

Actually those power levels are overkill for the transportation end of 
things.

An electric motor (properly designed) will operate in the 95-percentiles 
of efficiency over a wide range of output RPM and power.  It will also 
give you a leverage against the foibles of automobile wastefulness, as 
it can act as a generator during breaking that can quickly add back to a 
system that is able to accept the sudden current. (making these new 
batteries a wonderful invention)

Here is what the experimenters have found.

A mid-sized passenger car can be stable at 60 MPH using 4200 W (flat 
weather-free)
The rest is a mater of power management.  Note "flat weather-free" is 
one of those impossible mathematical models of an ideal condition that 
can never exist because the universe would collapse.

---

From: Nanook <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 22:28:12 -0700 (PDT)

I think your figures are way optimistic and at the very least way out of
line from other peoples experiences I've known, but then one has to define
mid-sized.  If mid-sized is 1600 pound tear-drop shaped, maybe.

     At any rate, 4200 watts, only cuts the problem by a little more than half,
so you're down to needing a 4000 amp service, still out of the range of normal
electrical hookups and a hell of a connector and wiring harness.

On Wed, 13 Jun 2007, Charles Ford wrote:

> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 05:10:59 -0500
> From: Charles Ford <[email-masked]>
> Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 22:10:55 -0700

---

From: Charles Ford <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 03:33:58 -0500

Nanook:

Don't forget to do the math on your power levels. 

4200 W from a 4.2V LiIon cluster is 1000 A, and if you string three 
clusters in series its a 12.6V battery, 4200W is now 333A  and so on.

In order to get 5HP continuous out of an electric motor you will need to 
look at motors that run at 90V, (off the shelf) or devide the problem 
into a bunch of smaller separately-powered drive clusters.  The higher 
voltage decreases your IR losses as well as the cost of your parts.

Also the traditional transmission to rear wheel, shaft, ring and spider 
gear setup sucks for efficiency.

Balancing power from left to right is a necessary aspect of any 4 wheel 
vehicle and a transmission is way to handy to retire.  But they could be 
designed better.

there are some things about electric that allow you to cut some corners.

The gears don't have to be as stout because the electric motor does not 
provide the "hammer blow" of a reciprocating engine. Also the power 
curve is much flatter, (basically current translates to torque and volts 
to RPM) The transmission will only require two gears (low and high) to 
be competent (three if your motor will only turn one way).  Since the 
electric motor requires only a fraction of the  space of  it's fuel 
burning preprocessors, there is lots of room for batteries, especially 
if you jerk out the fuel tank.

The choice of LiIon over Lead-Acid is a design preference, not a necessity.

Lead-Acid is about 110 Kj / Kg  LiIon is currently about 800 Kj / Kg
You will have to make a choice between cost and range, to stay in your 
allowable curb weight.

> electrical hookups and a hell of a connector and wiring harness.
slash...  plop

---

From: Nanook <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:58:17 -0700 (PDT)

I was refering to the impracticality of charging in three minutes from
a 240v circuit in 3 minutes.

     Battery string voltage of coarse depends on the system and for that kind
of capacity you would want to go to a higher voltage to keep the currents
reasonable.

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007, Charles Ford wrote:

> Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 03:33:58 -0500
> Subject: Re: [FG]: e-car conversions. 
> Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 20:33:54 -0700

---

From: "M J Mitch Mitchell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:03:01 -0700

There is a small shop in Fontana CA. named "Eyeball Engineering" that is into racing motorcycles, both fueled and battery powered. The battery powered bike uses an aircraft generator as a motor. What alterations have been done I dio not know, but I would guess that it isn't stock. The owners came accross some batteries made in Austrailia that are some sort of "gel cells" that take and deliver a charge quite well. The bike has no transmission as yet, but they are working on that. The bike launches the 1/4 mile drag strip under 90 volts of power (full current), then the rider pulls what looks like a hand brake which in fact switches the battery pack from 90 volts to 180 volts (half current) to effectively make the DC motor try to work hard again. The fueled bike they race is a turbocharged Kawasaki that does the 1/4 mile in less than 9 seconds and the rider told me the
electric bike leaves the line twice as hard as the Kawasaki buts runs out of work before the 1/8th mile mark, hence the shift to 180 volts in an attempt to make the motor work hard again. Without any transmission, the motor is wound tight at the 1/8th mile mark and there is little or no increase in speed until the 1/4 is done. The bike does the 1/4 mile in under 11 seconds, totally silent except for tire squall as it smokes the 12 inch slick on the rear when it leaves the starting line. The batteries are recharged between rounds by using a portable generator, which I find remarkable as there usually is no more than 15 to 30 minutes between rounds.  Lead acid gel cells? I would not believe it if I had not seen it with my own eyes. (every bit of space under the fairing is used for batteries and the fairing is rather bulky)

Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps.

---

From: Nanook <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:12:02 -0700 (PDT)

I don't have any trouble believing it.  One thing about electric motors,
they produce full torque at zero RPM, where a gasoline engine needs to get up
in RPM before it can produce significant power.

On Wed, 13 Jun 2007, M J Mitch Mitchell wrote:

> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:03:01 -0700
> Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2007 22:03:03 -0700
> There is a small shop in Fontana CA. named "Eyeball Engineering" that is
> into racing motorcycles, both fueled and battery powered. The battery
> powered bike uses an aircraft generator as a motor. What alterations have
> been done I dio not know, but I would guess that it isn't stock. The
> owners came accross some batteries made in Austrailia that are some sort
> of "gel cells" that take and deliver a charge quite well. The bike has no
> transmission as yet, but they are working on that. The bike launches the
> 1/4 mile drag strip under 90 volts of power (full current), then the
> rider pulls what looks like a hand brake which in fact switches the
> battery pack from 90 volts to 180 volts (half current) to effectively
> make the DC motor try to work hard again. The fueled bike they race is a
> turbocharged Kawasaki that does the 1/4 mile in less than 9 seconds and
> the rider told me the electric bike leaves the line twice as hard as the
> Kawasaki buts runs out of work before the 1/8th mile mark, hence the
> shift to 180 volts in an attempt to make the motor work hard again.
> Without any transmission, the motor is wound tight at the 1/8th mile mark
> and there is little or no increase in speed until the 1/4 is done. The
> bike does the 1/4 mile in under 11 seconds, totally silent except for
> tire squall as it smokes the 12 inch slick on the rear when it leaves the
> starting line. The batteries are recharged between rounds by using a
> portable generator, which I find remarkable as there usually is no more
> than 15 to 30 minutes between rounds.  Lead acid gel cells? I would not
> believe it if I had not seen it with my own eyes. (every bit of space
> under the fairing is used for batteries and the fairing is rather bulky)
> 
> 
>

---

From: Bob Paddock <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 05:34:10 -0400

> The choice of LiIon over Lead-Acid is a design preference, not a necessity.

There are newer types of Li batteries for the "Motive" market:

http://www.valence.com/markets.asp?market=5

There are other companies as well trying to capitalize
on the upcoming demand for electric car batteries.

One of the major car companies, don't recall which one,
just announced the they would not use Lithium batteries
due to the "safety" of them, pointing to the exploding
Laptop Li batteries as an example.  Seems even
they don't know of the newer technologies, or there
is more to their pull-back (Bought off by Big Oil again?).

-- 
                http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/
 http://www.softwaresafety.net/ http://www.designer-iii.com/
                 http://www.unusualresearch.com/

---

From: Nanook <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 11:54:41 -0700 (PDT)

The energy density of lithium ion in terms of wh/g verses lead acid really
makes lithium ion more than a "design choice" if you want to go more than 50
miles.

     Lead acid packs around 25 watt-hour/kilogram, nickle-metal hydride about
60-100 watt-hour/kilogram, lithium ion about 110 watt-hour/kilogram, and
lithium ion polymer, 130-1200 watt-hours/kilogram.

     Lead acid is also extremely inefficient in terms of charge/discharge
efficiency with 50% a fairly ballpark figure. Lithium ion can be that bad under
really adverse conditions but the best cells return as much as 99.9% of the
energy put into them under ideal conditions (low charge/discharge rates), and
nickle-metal hydride can get up in the 90% range if the charge/discharge rates
are not too high for the cell in question.

     Lead acid is of coarse cheap relative to the other technologies, but the
energy efficiency and relatively low number of deep discharge cycles it
tolerates will make it more expensive to use.

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007, Bob Paddock wrote:

> Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 05:34:10 -0400
> From: Bob Paddock <[email-masked]>
> Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 02:34:16 -0700